1941-11-11

NATIONAL WAR LABOUR BOARD


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition):: May I ask the Minister of Labour when it is anticipated that appointments will be made to positions on the national war labour board?


Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Minister of Labour):: It is anticipated that these appointments will be made almost immediately. May I explain that any delay in the appointments is not due to any action of the government. The recommendations have to come from the national labour supply council, and practically all the representatives of labour on that council and a great many representatives of the manufacturers have been attending the International Labour Organization meeting in New York. They returned only on Monday, and we expect to get their recommendations on Thursday.



FISHERIES

[Stage Direction]
REGULATIONS WrITH RESPECT TO EXPORT OF HERRING
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries in relation to the order in council, passed in August last, under which the fisheries regulations were amended in so far as they relate to the province of New Brunswick, and which provided for the banning of the export of herring between January 1 and April 15 in each year. As he is aware, the matter has been under reconsideration- if that is a proper term to use-and I was informed that a meeting was held in the United States recently-this very last week. I want to know if it has now been decided to rescind the regulation, or what the position is.


Hon. J. E. MICHAUD (Minister of Fisheries):: The matter is still under advisement. Negotiations are being carried on with the United States authorities with a view of satisfying all concerned.


Richard Burpee Hanson: "Satisfying all concerned"! That means that you are going to rescind it; that is the only way to satisfy them.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: I wish to ask the Minister of Labour if his attention has been drawn to an advertisement which appeared in, I believe, the Windsor Star on the seventh of this month. A copy of the page has been sent, I understand, to hon. members. I am not going to read the advertisement, but I wish to draw attention to a copy of a letter which has been inserted in the advertisement, and which has been sent by the president of the Ford Motor Company of Canada to each employee of the company at Windsor. The letter has to do with the organization of the employees in the plant. It begins:
Let's discuss this organization question, man to man.
You have been approached, or will be approached, by organizers urging you to sign up with a certain union.
Everyone knows what they promise.
Then it says that this will cost the employees $150,000 a year. Further on in the letter, as it appears in the advertisement, it is stated:
The impartial services of the Department of Labour of the dominion government are avail-
Labour Conditions

able for just such a purpose. Under their supervision a committee of employees can be nominated and elected by secret ballot. This ballot would give every man a chance to express his real opinion on this question.
Has this been drawn to the minister's attention, and if it has, does he not think that it violates or contravenes paragraph 6 of order in council P.C. 2685, which states:
That employees should be free to organize in trade unions, free from any control by employers or their agents.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Mr. Speaker, I did not see the
advertisement. I do not know that it is necessary for me to go into it in any great detail at the present time. The reason is this. Both employers and employees agreed that they would hold a ballot under the auspices of the Department of Labour. Those auspices have been provided. The form of the ballot has been agreed upon. I believe that every detail in connection with the vote has been agreed upon between the employers and the employees; if there is any detail outstanding it is a very small one. The vote is to take place on Thursday. I do not think that I can go further than to say that those representing the union to which the hon. member for Vancouver East has referred have expressed their complete approval of all the arrangements that have been made; and so has the company.


Angus MacInnis: The minister did not answer my question. I asked him whether this did not violate or contravene P.C. 2685- interference with the employees in forming a union of their own choice.


Norman Alexander McLarty: The suggestion was made by the company that a vote be taken to obtain the wish of the employees of the company as to whether or not they desired to join a particular union. The union said, "That is perfectly fair; we are willing to have a vote taken to determine whether or not the majority of the employees of this plant wish to join this union." Surely there is no violation of order in council P.C. 2685, or any other, in a mutual agreement on the part of the company and the employees, who decide that this is the fairest method of determining the wishes of the employees themselves.



MARITIME PROVINCE LUMBER WORKERS EMPLOYED IN THE UNITED STATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. L. O'BRIEN (Northumberland, N.B.): Yesterday the Prime Minister was good enough to reply to a former question of mine with regard to the passage of woodsworkers

across the international boundary. His reply specifically mentioned the product of "a good proportion" of such workers as eventually reaching Saint John, New Brunswick. I wish to ask the following questions: (a) How many workers are actually so engaged in connection with Saint John, New Brunswick, industries? (b) How many are so engaged the product of whose labour does not return to Canada?
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Obviously I cannot give an answer at the moment, but I shall try to secure the information.



FOREIGN EXCHANGE


Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: Yesterday the hon. member for Parkdale (Mr. Bruce) asked a question with regard to remittances of funds by representatives of labour unions in Canada to head offices or other offices of labour unions in the United States. The question was connected with one relating to the International Labour Office, and that part of the question may have been completely answered by the Prime Minister. However, I have here a complete reply which I will now give.
As the Prime Minister stated yesterday, the International Labour Organization is an intergovernmental body and the arrangements regarding the operations of its bank accounts as set out in the Canada Gazette of October 25 confirm the international status of these accounts and in general place them on the same basis as the accounts of diplomatic representatives of foreign countries. As the members of the house are no doubt aware, the International Labour Organization is a part of the League of Nations which formerly had its headquarters in Geneva, Switzerland. When it became impossible to carry out the important duties of this body from Geneva the director of the International Labour Organization accepted in the summer of 1940 an invitation from McGill university to establish a working centre in Montreal.
As a matter of interest to the house, I would mention that the budget of the International Labour Organization is established in a hard currency, namely, Swiss francs. Their expenses in Canada over and above the portion covered by the regular annual contribution of the Canadian government are met from the proceeds of the sale of hard currency to the foreign exchange control board. This is in effect a transfer of United States

The War-Mr. Harris (Danforth)
funds to Canada. The establishment of a working centre of the International Labour Organization in Montreal therefore has the incidental effect of bringing United States exchange into the country.
The hon. member for Parkdale will realize that the arrangements made for the International Labour Organization do not grant any privileges or concessions to the Committee for Industrial Organization or other similar labour bodies.
The government's policy is to provide foreign exchange for the payment of fees, dues or other normal contributions in connection with membership in all recognized international professional, occupational or fraternal organizations. These include such organizations as international service clubs, fraternal societies, trade and professional associations as well as international labour unions. All these various types of international organizations are treated on exactly the same basis and no preferred treatment is given to any one of them.



FEED GRAINS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. C. SENN (Haldimand):: Will the Minister of Agriculture make a statement before the house rises regarding the policy of the government in the payment of freight rates on western grains moved eastward for feed purposes? What safeguards are being provided to ensure that the farmers will get the benefit of this payment of freight rates; to whom should they make application, and so on? Will the minister give a brief outline indicating what the policy of the government is?


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: What I said the other day will
apply very well as an answer to the question. Just as soon as the departments which are now under review have finished answering questions, I shall be here, prepared to answer any questions with regard to such matters as distribution of feed grain. I shall give such information as may be deemed necessary.



PRIVILEGE-MR. ILSLEY PRESS REPORT AS TO TRAVELLING EXPENSES OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
James Lorimer Ilsley: I rise to a question of privilege. A press report 14873-268
published on November 4, purporting to set out the travelling expenses of various ministers of the government, gave the travelling expenses of the Minister of Finance for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1941, as $17,257-that is, for the Minister of Finance and secretaries. For the previous year ended March 31, 1940, the amount given was $544. So far as I am concerned-and I was Minister of National Revenue part of the time and Minister of Finance for another part-the figures are as follows: For the fiscal year ended March 31, 1940, for myself and two secretaries, $1,743.62; for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1941, $585 for myself and nothing for secretaries.
This information is contained in sessional paper No. 335. I mention this merely because the statement is receiving some circulation, particularly in my province, and it has been suggested that unless it is corrected it might possibly have some detrimental effect on the war savings campaign.



THE WAR


[Stage Direction]
Canada's war effort
The house again in committee of the whole, Mr. Bradette in the chair.
Mr. J. H. HARRIS (Danforth):: As I came into the chamber I saw staring me in the face "November 11", and I thought back some twenty-three short years ago to another November 11. What a change, what a difference, Mr. Chairman, in two decades! Did we go far enough twenty-three years ago? I doubt it very much. Are we going far enough to-day? I say, nay; we are not going far enough. We are not doing all that we are capable of doing. In the last decade there have been voids, not of a day or of a month, but of a year when we were not at our task in furtherance of the things we hold dear. I do not purpose to sound a note of criticism or say anything to belittle the effort that is now being made. I do not purpose to recite history or geography; we have had enough of that. But we have not had nearly enough about what we are going to do in the present emergency. We all know that we failed during the last decade. We all know where the responsibility lies; I am not going to recite it. We all know from our press and other sources of information what has taken place. When I think of the state of Europe I am impelled to say a word on the state of our nation, the state of democracy, the state of our empire. But first let me deal for a moment with Europe.



The War-Mr. Harris (Danjorth)
The first minister of the crown gave you the history and the geography up to the present, and then he stopped. It has been my privilege to know something of Europe. A dozen of the capital cities of former independent states are to-day under the heel of Hitler. From the Arctic to the Aegean, from the walls of Moscow to the Pyrenees, the people of Europe are under the heel of Hitler. Who are the people who are under that heel? We know them-broad-backed, short-legged men and women who have known nothing for many generations but hard work; two hundred million of them enslaved to a hundred million slave-drivers. Yet on all sides we see signs in our land of a lack of continued effort. We find the power of this chamber not harnessed to-day, this chamber which is the detonator or sounding-board of the nation, this chamber which is the only free expression of opinion in Canada. Sitting here to-day many hon. members feel that they ought to be out of here, ought to be at home, that they are not doing any good here. They feel that perhaps this is not the way to inspire the nation. That sounding-board in the fourth estate cannot refuse to disseminate what is placed on the record of Hansard. It will not be censored; it will be recorded freely in a censored press. It may be repeated over the radio and it may be of some consequence in helping us to call for an all-out effort. I do not criticize too much the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King); I know he has to be away from this chamber a good deal. As I said some years ago, the ministers of the crown should have some kind of organization that would relieve them of the necessity of sitting here long hours; they should have deputies or undersecretaries to carry out the little duties so that the ministers themselves could come in to attend to the big duties.
Sitting opposite me to-day is the Minister of Munitions and Supply, operating the biggest industrial enterprise that Canada ever knew; indeed I am of the opinion that the industry of which he is managing director is the greatest on the north American continent. Why should he have to sit here and listen to speeches such as he had to listen to yesterday? I take full responsibility for what I found it necessary to say, and more and more is going to be said. But the responsibility for such a set-up as we have is on our present organization. I say to the Prime Minister: there are men within your own ranks, and hon. members on this side, who are well able and anxious to do something on behalf of Canada. Inspire them; use them; put them to work. The Prime Minister, speaking of a
	T|
certain committee, said that it afforded an opportunity for hon. members of the House of Commons to do some useful work. In the operations of the war expenditures committee, what opportunity was given? None. Was it fair; was it set up in such a way that it could be of real service? It did some good. What took place during those hot days of June, July, August and September? What was being done in the supposed centre of all activity in Canada-Ottawa? I said on one occasion, and I reiterate it now, that Ottawa was like a morgue. Who was chairman of that committee? A member of the government. First they thought of subdividing the committee into five; then when it was apparent that four members of the official opposition could not be divided into five parts they made it three, so that we had one member on each subcommittee, except one on which we had two. So that a member of the official opposition could- move a motion, but was often unable to find a seconder. The committee was improperly formed; the electorate of Canada was not equally represented, and we did not have the opportunity of doing all the work we would like to have done. But I shall have more to say on that a little later.
On this occasion I want my remarks to be more appropriate to the day-this sacred day, Remembrance day. I point out to the Prime Minister and the government that our people are looking for more leadership, not only from the Prime Minister but from all of us. It seems to me that we in Canada and in this house are acting like people in the bleachers at a football match. We are watching the game. Wre are watching Russia, watching Germany; our spirits go up and down; we do not seem to realize that we ourselves are in the game. We are coming to the semifinals. One by one those opposed to totalitarianism have been defeated. To-day with our wishful thinking we are hoping that Russia will hold out. Very shortly the finals are coming. Where are we going to be then? Will our people be so firmly joined in a united effort that we can give a good account of ourselves? Those of us who are gathered together in this chamber have a direct responsibility to see to it that our people are doing everything possible. But you cannot discharge that responsibility if you go to your homes and let this House of Commons sink back into the moribund state which existed here between the close of June and the beginning of November. We have no right to go home until we point the way in all our activities, and until our people feel that we are doing everything we possibly can do.

The War-Mr. Harris (Danjorth)
When I think of the strength of those opposing democracy it frightens me, and I am not one who is easily frightened. When I think- and I say this in all kindness-of the weakness of our national effort, led by the present administration, it frightens me. Why do I say that? Not because the Minister of Justice is ill and absent from his place.; not because the Minister of Transport is ill. I have a profound respect for those hon. gentlemen; I am sorry they are not here, but because they are ill Hitler has not stopped the war. Someone should be found not to replace them but to take charge of their departments; and I would not limit it to that. I am thinking of what these two hon. gentlemen mean, and what they represent, to one quarter of our population, people who were citizens of Canada long before many of us were Canadians, whose families have been in this country for many generations. What they feel in their minds and hearts is not being fully represented in this chamber. In all possible kindness I say to the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot): You may reflect some of the sentiment in your province, but you are only human and you cannot reflect it all. We need all the inspiration it is possible to get during these very difficult and trying times.
Let us to-day, then, rededicate ourselves one and all to the cause which concerns us day and night. Let no word of mine be regarded as of a pessimistic nature. I want to be realistic all through this difficult time. I want to know what is happening. Several hon. gentlemen opposite have been in England. All those who have been there should tell those of us who have not had that privilege exactly what is in their hearts. To-day I speak from my heart, from my head, and from the very depths of my soul, just rambling on trying to tell you how I feel about the state of our nation. If we must have a closed session in order that those who have been there may tell us what is going on, let it be a closed session. I take second place to no one in this chamber in my desire that everything for the good of the nation should be discussed in open session. I have had some experience during the last few months in that regard, and I have not altered my point of view; but if the Prime Minister in his judgment says we should have a closed session if we are to have the truth, then let us have a secret session. I ask you, Mr. Chairman, are the men in this chamber my colleagues or must I listen to their stories told in whispers, and draw my own conclusions? During the twenty years I have sat here I have thought, and still think, that the mem-14873-268}
bers of this house are my colleagues. What I know that is in the interests of the nation, they should know; what they know that is in the interests of the nation, I should know. Otherwise I am not able to serve to the best of my ability. I do not want to listen to scandalmongers on street comers as to what is happening over there. I want to listen to those who have been there; and I demand of the administration now that my request be given consideration.
We get information from other sources, of course, and we reveal that information in this chamber so that the nation in turn may know what is going on. I received a letter only last evening from Welwyn Garden City, Herts, England. This letter is from the managing director's office of a very large concern in London; it is dated 21/10/41, and is postmarked Ottawa, November 10. It reached Ottawa last night. This is what the writer says:
And so this wretched war drags on! The feeling here is just this. We would far sooner die than yield to a tyranny that we think would be far worse than death. But we just don't intend to die quietly at the hands of the hun. We shall fight him if he conies, and we shall beat him. He will never, no never, take this island home of ours. I am, my dear Joe, assured, as you say, that you are all with us in this fight, to a man, and this is a great inspiration to us. God bless you and yours.
A quarter of a century ago the battle was raging at Vimy. Where will it be raging soon; on the Sussex downs? If we fail, all fail; if we fall, all fall, according to some of our great statesmen. Therefore, speaking as an ordinary member of the Canadian House of Commons, and guaranteeing all the cooperation I can give at this time, I say: recognize us; acknowledge us; inspire us; shame us; enthuse us; exalt us; employ us; drive us; order us; command us; criticize us; approve us; disapprove us; chastize us; listen to us; possess us; dispossess us; control us; charge us; bankrupt us; pauperize us; cheer us; free us; prepare us; dedicate us; rededicate us; bereave us; conscript us, and for God's sake lead us.
Mr. KARL K. HOMUTH (Waterloo South): Mr. Chairman, yesterday I drew the attention of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to the fact that it was rather difficult to deal with the various departments as single units. We are now dealing with the Department of Munitions and Supply.
Knowing something of the manufacturing industry in Canada, may I say that I do not
The War-Mr. Homuth

know of any minister who has a more difficult job, or who is getting more cooperation from the manufacturers and workmen in Canada, than the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe). He has a tremendous task, a task which is not particularly associated with government policy. His job is to get munitions and more munitions. The only part of it connected with the general administration of the government is the effect that the Department of Labour, Department of Finance or the Department of National Defence may have on the production of the munitions he requires.
So that the Minister of Munitions and Supply is not particularly concerned with government policy, except as it may affect him. I repeat, he has a tremendous task. He has many able men surrounding him. Sometimes I wonder how they handle the task which has been given them. On many occasions I have had to appear before officers in that department in connection with difficulties arising in industries in my own constituency. Waterloo county is a highly industrialized section of Canada. I have found those officials anxious to do everything they could to help the minister, and to help in our war effort.
But in dealing with his department we must also deal with the departments of labour and finance. Let me give an example of how those departments are dovetailed. When war broke out most industries realized that there would be an increase in the cost of living. Heads of industries who were fair to their employees-and most of them are-immediately put into effect either a bonus system or an increased basic rate of wages. Later on an order in council was passed by the Department of Labour making it mandatory that industries dealing directly with the government give a cost of living bonus. The plea went out to industries which were not dealing directly with the government that they also give a cost of living bonus, so as to avoid strife between industry and labour in Canada. Most of the industries responded to that request.
What happened? During the last session, when the increase in the national defence tax became effective, pleas were made by hon. members on this side of the house that in levying the national defence tax, and in the compilation of income tax, exemption up to a certain amount should be allowed. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) accepted the idea that married men without children should be exempted up to SI,200. Then the Department of Labour issued the plea that a cost of living bonus should be paid. Hundreds of employees in my district were granted the cost of living bonus, at that time computed at

the rate of five per cent. On the basis of that percentage a bonus of $60 a year was to be paid to married men earning SI ,200. That was done because the Department of Labour pointed out that it would cost those people S60 a year more to live. Then the Minister of Finance came along and said, "Now that you are getting $1,260 a year I shall have to levy on you a tax of five per cent." And so the Department of Finance took from the man who, on the plea of the Minister of Labour, had been given a cost of living bonus, the bonus which had been given to him. Actually the tax would have amounted to $63, but the Department of Finance could take from an employee only an amount sufficient to bring him back to his $1,200 basis. The same principle applies to single people.
It appears therefore that we have two departments acting differently. One department pleads with the industries in this country to treat its employees fairly, and when they are about to do so the Department of Finance comes along and takes from them what the Department of Labour has asked industry to give them.
I had thought that when the house reassembled, in view of the fact that so much had been done by order in council-and I realize the necessity for it-we would have prorogued and begun a new session. These measures had been tried out for a year or more, and, from the experience we have had in their operation, they could have been amended so as to give the people some assurance that members of the House of Commons are trying to treat *them fairly.
Employees have come to my office-and they come to the offices of all industries in my district-and have said, "We do not want your cost of living bonus, because the government is taking it away from us anyway." If the government is taking $60 from a man, does not that deduction constitute an increase in the cost of living? Is that not one more of the factors which cause inflation? We are attempting to put a ceiling on prices and on wages, and to stop inflation. Yet this very lack of cooperation among departments is doing much to bring about inflation. When the Prime Minister stated that we would sit for a week or two to give members of the cabinet an opportunity to present prepared statements, which would be laid open for discussion- despite the fact that, as the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) has said, although we can discuss them we can get nowhere because we cannot move resolutions or amendments-he pointed out that, having regard to the convenience of members and the difficulties of obtaining accommodation in the city, we should then adjourn to meet

The War-Mr. Homuth
again in January. When any man offers himself as a candidate for the House of Commons he ought to know something of what his responsibility will be. He knows what his indemnity is going to be and if he does not know what call is to be made upon him when he tries for a seat in the House of Commons he should be prepared to make whatever sacrifice may be necessary. It does not matter whether we sit here three months or six months or twelve months; we are at war and we ought to be here attending to the business of the country.
As I say, we have had an opportunity of studying the working out of many of these laws. We have been able to see something of what lack of foresight on the part of the government is doing to industry and to recruiting in this country. A national registration was taken. True, that was long months after it had been urged in the house, but eventually it was done. If the cards are checked carefully it will be found that hundreds of outstanding machinists are to-day driving bakery and milk wagons or doing other types of less strenuous jobs. If we had taken full advantage of the national registration act and had gone carefully over the answers given to the questions asked, we would have found that hundreds of thousands of young men could be placed in industry where they are vitally needed. But the only advantage we took of that registration was to call men up for war service.
Let us see what happened to the recruiting campaign in this country. When war was declared a fever of loyalty swept across the country and tens of thousands of young Canadians came forward to offer their services. But the government could not take them; they had no means of training them, they had no equipment, and there were no places in which they could be trained. They were sent home and told to come back. They were told, "We will call you when we want you." The feeling of loyalty which had swept across the country was dampened and died down. We then went on and recruited as we saw fit and as we were able to handle the men.
Finally the national war services act was passed, giving the government of the day the power to call men for service in Canada. Then the thirty-day training period was started, one of the worst money wasters we have had in this war effort. Men who were called up for this thirty-day training period have not been called up since and likely will not be called up to take further training. This represented a waste of millions of dollars, but it was an experience. Then the government decided that we should have a four months training period. Before the first four months training period was concluded the government, realizing the dangers and difficulties ahead, decided that they would conscript the men for home defence for the duration of the war. Enlistment fell off. We listened to a great many speeches by members of the government who, on the one hand, said that plenty of men were coming forward, that there was no dearth of soldiers or air force or naval men, and, on the other hand, the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) and high ranking officers of the army pleaded for men to come and fill up the ranks. They told us of the necessity for more and more men in order to defeat Hitler. In the meantime the papers were publishing stories of how the whole personnel in various training camps had enlisted, and there was on the part of the people of Canada a sense of security and a feeling that everything was all right.
During the summer months the Prime Minister went on a speaking tour in western Canada. While that tour was in progress, from many parts of the country came a cry for conscription, and from other parts of the country came a cry for selective service. The cry became so vocal that of necessity the Prime Minister had to answer it. On platform after platform in western Canada he said, "I have given my pledge to the people of Canada that I am opposed to the conscription of the men of Canada for service overseas, and I intend to abide by that promise."


Mr. POULIOT:: Hear, hear.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Do not yell "hear, hear," too soon. Speaking in Calgary the Prime Minister said:
Those, howrever, who could serve, and who do not answer the call, will bear through life the stamp of that failure. Their neighbours will know; and, what is far worse, they themselves will know', in their hearts, that they have failed to seize the greatest opportunity which is likely ever to come to men to serve their country and their fellow' men.
In other words, "Unless those of you who are physically fit and of military age are prepared to offer your services for overseas in this crisis, the finger of shame will be pointed at you." Regardless of what our families may have done, regardless of what many of our loved ones may have done, there are many sitting in this chamber who did not serve in the last war. I did not serve in the last war, and other members of this party did not. The Prime Minister did not serve, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) did not, and there are other members of this house wbn
The War-Mr. Homuth

did not. But we have since been elected to the House of Commons, to an important position in the life of the nation. We did not serve in the last war, but the finger of shame was not pointed at us because we did not. Surely that is not the way to stir up the loyalty and enthusiasm of the young men who we feel ought to be serving overseas in the fighting forces of this country.
Later on in the same address the Prime Minister said:
Let us keep these truths ever before our young men; explain the need and the greatness of service, and no compulsion will be required to fill the ranks of Canada's overseas army.
We have the Prime Minister living up to the promise which he made to the electors, and we have him saying to the young men of this country, "If you do not enlist, all the rest of your life you will be ashamed of the part that you played."


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I ask my hon. friend if he is reading the text of a speech of mine, or is he placing his own interpretation upon what I said?


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I am reading a report from the Prime Minister's own newspaper, the Toronto Star.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I wish to say to my hon. friend that with respect to men enlisting for service overseas I made no reference of the kind to which he refers. I have said repeatedly that any young man in this country who does not recognize the seriousness of the existing situation and play his part in helping to meet it is going to suffer for it in one way or another during the rest of his days.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: The hon. member for Danforth says that the member for Temiscouata speaks only for his own constituency. Well, each of us has a double duty in this house. The first duty of every member is to represent the constituents who have honoured him with their confidence and honoured him by listening to his speeches during election time, and also by taking the trouble to go to the polls to mark their ballots in his favour. But members also represent Canada at large, because each member of parliament must realize that every time he discusses legislation, every time he gives his vote, he must do so not only from the parochial point of view of looking after his constituents, but also from the broader standpoint of the welfare of all Canadians. That is the point of view that members should take, and I am sure that my hon. friend the member for Danforth, as well as other members on either side, have such a point of view when they address the house or speak in committee, or whenever they rise to give their vote on any measure that is submitted to us.
There should be a general understanding about conscription, provided that necessary distinctions are made. We hear people say that we must have conscription, and by conscription they mean only conscription for overseas service. They do not regard the taking of men for service in Canada as conscription; conscription, according to them, is only for service overseas. I remember in 1939 at the special session I made a certain remark and one of the war ministers smiled. I said that I never conceived-and I cannot conceive it now-how it was that whereas the area of Canada is so large and that of England is so small, and whereas the population of England is so dense and that of Canada so small, we cannot keep our men in Canada for the possible eventual defence of this country, but that, as a matter of patriotism, we must send them overseas. I cannot conceive it. I think it shows a complete lack of proportion and is an insult to the courage of the British people. In fact, an outstanding publisher in England, a man who ranks very high in politics, once made this statement to me: Do you not think, you Canadians, that we Englishmen can look after the defence of our own island? We are just as brave as you are, and although we do not wish to offend you by telling you to return home when you come in the Canadian army, we do not need you here. We have enough valiant men among ourselves to defend our shores, to defend our island, just as we see to the defence of British trade on the high seas. Your duty is not to come here to share with us the food that is convoyed at such high 
cost; your duty is to stay at home and save us the trouble of having to defend Canada, which is so large a country. And he added these words, which should be remembered by every member of this house. He said: Your duty is not in the British isles, your duty is in Canada; look after Canada and we can look after the British isles. That man was a great Englishman, and his words put to shame many of the fake patriots who think only of sending the cream of our youth to England, causing embarrassment rather than helping.
Now, there is something else. All those who are in favour of conscription are not angels. I do not mean by that bad angels or good; I mean they are not spiritual beings. They need food to sustain them. That food has to be carried to their homes, sometimes from far distant places. What is the duty of the farmer in that instance? The duty of the farmer in time of war as well as in time of peace is to assure by his work that every Canadian and everyone in this country shall receive the food necessary for his subsistence. And of course when a man holds a rifle in England or is assigned to certain duty in England he cannot fulfil that great work here in Canada. Not only that; I am all for the National Resources Mobilization Act; I am all for total war effort, provided that everyone is assigned to his own proper post to ensure a complete and a quick victory over our common foe. Therefore why disturb the economic and social structure of this country? I cannot understand it.
The Union government promised the farmers that they would be exempt from conscription, not because they were cowards, as I have said before, but because they had an important work to do, the work of feeding both the army and the civilian population, and also of exporting food to the British isles-and now to Russia. That is the duty of the farmer. The fisherman has a similar duty. Why not exploit our fisheries in time of war as well as in time of peace? What is the duty of the railway employee, the man who has charge of a train, whether freight or passenger? His duty is to be here.
This, sir, is what I have said repeatedly; that the war should be carried on not on the basis of sentimentalism but on the basis of reason. The successes that the Germans have achieved in some parts of Europe are not due to sentimentalism, although they started their propaganda that way; they are based on strict reasoning. I appreciate the stand taken by my chief and by his government, to look after the defence of Canada; nothing too much can be done in that regard.

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I have a word to say to my Englishspeaking friends. I as a Frenck-Canadian have never uttered a word about religious or racial differences in the house. I respect the religious views of my colleagues, I respect their opinions, I respect them as men, and I want to enjoy the same respect myself. But there is one thing I will tell them; that is the only way to ensure national unity. We shall have national unity in this country only when our English-speaking fellow citizens will have the same sentiment and the same feeling for Great Britain as we have for France. There may be cultural relations with other lands, but we must think first of Canada, our common country, and our north American civilization, which does so much for the development of the mind as well as for the comfort of the body. Our American civilization now is much higher than the civilization of Europe, although Europe has led us in the past.
The very best and most stable element we have in this country is not found in the cities. It is the rural population, and so long as the rural people do their work in the future as they have in the past by helping this country to carry on the war, doing work which is just as useful as the work done in the munitions factories, then they should be considered as a class that must be kept at work without being disturbed or perturbed. I do not say that because I am a fifth columnist. Hon. members know what offers I made to the government, although they were not accepted at the time, but I am not grouching because I was refused. I want this country to win the war, and I want the people of this country to be healthy enough to do the very best job that can be done. That is why I do not want only unfits to be in charge of very important and very strenuous and difficult work.	Should we send
overseas only those who are healthy while men who are in bad physical condition, who are sick, who suffer from tuberculosis, hernia or goitre, will take their jobs? What happens? I speak very seriously through you, Mr. Chairman, to hon. gentlemen opposite as well as to those on this side of the house. It means that the health standard of this country will go lower and lower, and our war effort will decrease in the same proportion.
I took the trouble, at the request of the federation of mayors, to go to various cities of the United States to study the admirable work that has been done by the WPA under that great man, President Roosevelt, for the betterment of the health of the working classes. I reported to the mayors of the 14873-269
principal cities of my country and summarized that report in the house. But some hon. members, even including the leader of the opposition, said they did not see why I was giving so many figures. I praise very highly the Minister of Pensions and National Health for the new policies of his department, the purpose of which is to improve the health of our people. Of course they still suffer privations, and what may surprise you, sir, is that in the rural districts the people abide much more strictly by the regulations to save bacon and other foods to help our allies in this war than the people do in the cities. I commend the minister for giving a new direction to his department to improve the health of our fellow citizens.
There is something else also. In past years I obtained from the Department of National Defence sortie used clothing which was distributed to settlers and unemployed people in the outlying districts of my constituency. Some of these clothes were cut down for younger children, in order that they might be warmly clothed during our Canadian winter. This year, unfortunately, because of certain misunderstandings and because some hon. members who were sitting on a committee did not know what was done with this clothing, I have been unable to obtain any of these articles. It was my idea to start with the youth, to provide young Canadians with warm clothing in order that they might enjoy our healthy Canadian winter, and I hope those concerned will understand better in the future. I must also express my thanks to the deputy minister of the Department of National Defence for the assistance he has given me in the past in this regard. This clothing was not used for political propaganda; it was given to Tories as well as Liberals, to all those who needed help. We are all Canadians in this country.
It is no use talking about leadership. I could mention a good many jokes about the new leader of the Conservative party, and perhaps a few about the present leader, but I shall refrain from doing so on a day such as this. I am always ready to meet my hon. friends opposite in any constructive suggestions looking to the welfare of this country, but up to the present we have had nothing of the kind from that side of the house. I do not complain about that. It was the idea of my hon. friend the leader of the opposition that the session should be adjourned instead of being prorogued, as I suggested. He won his point, and we are meeting here again at this time. Of course speeches are necessary, and many have been delivered by high ranking orators on the other side. But, Mr. Chairman, is it not possible for hon. gentlemen opposite to cease

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their insinuations and propaganda about leadership? We have a leader. He is the Prime Minister of Canada, who has headed the government of this country for perhaps longer than any other man in our history, including Sir John A. Macdonald. He has had remarkable success, and while I do not agree with everything that is done by the government I find that on the whole the Liberal party is alive while the Conservative party is dead. That is the principal difference.
Now that the Conservative party is to have a new leader I am reminded of the story of a king of Portugal named Pedro, who had a sweetheart called Inez de Castro. She was a very beautiful woman, but fell ill and died a long time before King Pedro was crowned. But at the time of his coronation he had her embalmed body mounted on a horse and paraded through the streets of Lisbon. That is the sort of parade we will have when Right Hon. Arthur Meighen becomes leader of the Conservative party; he will be parading with a corpse.
I believe we are coming to the time when there will be reciprocity between the parties, with a mutual exchange not of prisoners but of members.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As I understand it my hon. friend is chivalrously speaking on my behalf, so perhaps my motive will not be mistaken if I intervene at this stage to say just a word to the committee. In my position as leader of the house I have a duty which the country will expect me to perform; it is to see to it that as far as possible the house conducts its proceedings in a manner worthy of the House of Commons, taking into account the very serious situation which exists in the world at the present time.
Through the leaders of the different parties and groups, all hon. members have agreed upon a certain procedure while the house is in committee. The purpose of the house sitting in committee was to afford every possible opportunity to hon. gentlemen on all sides to question the ministry with respect to Canada's war effort. I have been listening to the speeches this afternoon. Last night I was not in the house, because during the course of the evening I had to give consideration to some very important matters, but I have glanced over Hansard, and I must say it does not appear that many questions were directed to the minister, bearing directly on the affairs of his department, which he was here to discuss with hon. members.
I am in this difficult and embarrassing position, that the moment I suggest it would be well for hon. members to follow the order that has been agreed upon, and to refrain fMr. Pouliot.]
from making irrelevant speeches, I am immediately charged with trying to shut off discussion, and trying to prevent freedom of speech in the House of Commons. Notwithstanding, having heard so many speeches entirely irrelevant to the matters directly under discussion, I believe the government will have to conclude that hon. members have finished with that portion of the proceedings relating to the questioning of the ministers, and have reached the point where all hon. members will be free to speak on anything they wish in regard to public affairs. I was careful to say that in the latter part of the discussion time would be especially reserved, after the ministry had reported on the war effort and questions had been asked; that when an hon. member wished to speak on other matters ample opportunity would be given to do so. If at this stage hon. members are going to continue to speak on subjects wholly apart from departmental statements, then there is nothing for the government to do but to assume that we have reached a point where at least for the time being hon. members generally feel that the specific questioning of ministers is over.
I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that while it is understood by all that you should not seek to be other than generous in the way of giving hon. members the fullest possible latitude in matters of discussion, at this stage of the proceedings at any rate you should see to it that hon. gentlemen are reminded that the discussion should relate primarily to the department whose minister has his statement before the house at the moment. The Minister of Munitions and Supply has been here for some time. He has very important matters to which he must give attention. Now he has left, believing the committee are finished with him. At the moment the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services is here and we are ready to proceed with his department. I would ask hon. members please to join with the government in helping to expedite this part of the proceedings by reserving such general statements as they may wish to make until a later stage of the proceedings.


The CHAIRMAN:: The procedure has been unusual from the beginning of this discussion, but by unanimous consent a rule has been established, as set out by the Prime Minister; and that rule is as binding on us in the course of this debate as any other rule under the standing orders of the house. Therefore I shall, in directing debate in the committee, adhere to the direction which has just been given and which, I understand, received the general assent of the committee.

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Mrs. NIELSEN:: I merely wish to be quite clear upon the point. There are certain things about which I wish to speak. I wish to deal with the foreign policy of the government, and would relate my remarks to numbers of departments. But if I understand the Prime Minister to say that private members will have an opportunity to speak later on matters of general interest, then I shall be most pleased now to do as the Prime Minister suggests, and wait until the various ministers have been before the committee. Is that the understanding?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Quite correct.


Jean-François Pouliot: May I have some idea in what order the ministers will be asked their questions?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: They are here now.


Jean-François Pouliot: Other ministers will follow?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Other ministers are waiting, and will be prepared to answer questions in the order in which they made their respective 'statements.


Jean-François Pouliot: The Minister of National Defence will come too?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I hope the Minister of National Defence may be able to be in the house to-morrow. He has for the last two days been confined to his house with a cold, and I think very wisely has sought to run no risk at this time.


Mr. G. S. WHITE (Hastings-Peterborough):: Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the remarks of the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot), and I wish to take the strongest exception possible to the remarks which he made when he alluded to Canadian soldiers overseas as young fools. I submit that no one in Canada, least of all-


Jean-François Pouliot: Not all of them.


George Stanley White: Please do not interrupt. I say that no one in Canada, least of all an hon. member in this chamber, has any right to refer to any member of the Canadian forces wearing the king's uniform, and serving in England, as a young fool. I would ask the hon. member for Temiscouata if he has ever worn the king's uniform, or rendered any service to his king. What right has he to speak?


Thomas Vien: Order. The form of the hon. member's speech is not according to the ndes. He cannot ask a question as in a cross-examination in court. I suggest the hon. member should make his statement, or his speech, without putting questions to hon. members who have not the floor.


George Stanley White: Thank you. But the circumstances are very exceptional. The hon. member for Temiscouata also referred to intrigues by Tory officers in the army. I would remind hon. members that all officers who serve in the army are subject to the strictest military discipline, and they are not permitted or allowed in any way to reply to charges against them.
On the day of the opening of the house 1 heard over the radio an announcement to the effect that the speech to be delivered by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) at the beginning of the session would 'be the most important announcement made since the war started. Yet when I read his speech in Hansard I find no information as to what he saw or heard on his trip to England. Neither did I-


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say a word with regard to this matter. In the first place I do not think I am responsible for anything that is said over the radio. In the second place the speech I made at the opening of the house did not purport to be anything other than a statement of the international situation. I have made such statements each time when the house has reassembled, either at the beginning of a session or after an adjournment, and I was following that procedure. Similarly, on occasions when the house has met, either at a new session or after adjournment, after I have made such a statement the leader of the opposition has been the first to speak. The leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) expressed to me his desire to speak following my statement on the international situation. My hon. friend made his speech, and it was arranged by agreement that we would then follow the usual method with regard to other leaders in the house making their addresses. But what I myself said was nothing more, and purported to be nothing more than a statement on the international situation. As Prime Minister, if I have any statement of national policy to make I will not choose the end of the session to make it, but I will make it at the time of the session when it can be debated in the regular way, and when, in accordance with the rules, amendments can be made to any motion which may be based upon it.


George Stanley White: .1 realize fully what the Prime Minister has said. But at the same time, as Prime Minister of this country, when he visited England, and was in consultation with the most important men in the world to-day, he saw with his own eyes what was
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going on. He was told, or must have been told, what we needed to do in this country. Surely, then, this parliament would have the right to expect, or would have the right to hear at the earliest possible moment, a review or report from the Prime Minister. If he chooses to wait, it is quite within his own power to do so.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I did not choose to wait, even for parliament to meet. I made a broadcast to the country within a week or ten days after I returned, and that broadcast has been distributed to all members of parliament, and pretty generally throughout the country. I went very fully into the matters I regarded as most important in connection with my visit overseas.
If the house expects to hear from me the confidential discussions which took place between the Prime Minister of England and myself, and between other British cabinet ministers and myself, or between myself and those who have to do with matters of military strategy, then I am afraid I shall have to disappoint hon. members in that regard, because I do not regard my conferences overseas as intended to serve any such purpose. Unfortunately I cannot make public what it is necessary to conceal from the enemy.
I should like to make perfectly clear that I have not had the opportunity since I came back to discuss with some of my colleagues to the extent I should like, some of the matters which were taken up overseas. The Minister of National Defence, as hon. members know, left for the old country almost immediately after the time I came back. I have not had the opportunity to discuss with him, nor have my colleagues, the results of some of his conferences on the other side. And until we have that opportunity I do not propose on behalf of the government to make any premature statement with respect to what further step we will take as a result of our conferences.


George Stanley White: Certainly I would not even suggest to the Prime Minister that he should discuss any of the confidential conferences which took place. But I do say that this house is entitled at least to a report and a true picture of the present situation overseas, and what is expected from Canada which, the Prime Minister says, is going to make a total war effort. Surely, then, the Prime Minister can tell us, after being over there, what is expected, and how Canada is to make a total war effort.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I did not need to go overseas to tell that. I told the house that at the beginning of the session, and I

have told it time and again in the speeches I have made. Everything I saw in England and heard in England, and everything said in conference in England confirmed what I had said were my convictions respecting the war, and as to Canada's part in the war, and above all caused me to feel an even greater pride in Canada's war effort than would have been possible if I had not been over there.


George Stanley White: Would the Prime Minister care to say if in his opinion to-day Canada is making a total war effort?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I say Canada is making a magnificent effort, and that everything considered, compared with the effort of any other country it will compare favourably. I will say to my hon. friend, when he speaks of total war effort, that I do not mean that the war effort of Canada is to be only in one direction-and that in the direction that is going to cause, in the matter of public discussion in this country, the most by way of embarrassment.


George Stanley White: The Prime Minister apparently refers to the question of man-power. We heard the other day from the Minister of National Defence that the matter of manpower was most urgent and important. He admitted that we were not obtaining to-day, on the voluntary system of enlistment, the required number of recruits. He also admitted that the government quotas were not being obtained. I am informed that in some military districts the number of discharges on some days exceeds the number of enlistments. Perhaps when the minister is in his seat again he will tell us if that information is correct.
No doubt voluntary enlistment has produced many men, but in my opinion this form of enlistment is not sufficient. I have said before in this house, and I repeat, that selective compulsory military training is the only method that will meet the present emergency. At times in this house and out of the house and in the newspapers we hear and see the phrase, "equality of service and sacrifice." Is there any member of this house who will differ with me when I say that the only people of Canada who are making a sacrifice to-day are the men who are serving the empire for $1.30 a day? Do hon. members believe that the young men who stay at home and are in receipt of increased wages, who have the best of meals and all the comforts of civilized life, are making the same sacrifice as the boys in the armed forces? I repeat that the only men who are making a sacrifice to-day are those who are getting SI .30 a day. Yet this government

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passed regulations providing for a cost of living bonus to be paid to many thousands of Canadian citizens.
It is true that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) stated a few days ago that the question of increased allowances for soldiers' dependents was being considered, but these allowances apply only to three dependents-the wife and two children. These allowances were set, probably on some proper scale, in August and September of 1939, but according to the figures of the government the cost of living has increased by some 14 to 15 per cent. In the important essentials of life I think everyone will agree that the increase has been more than that, probably between 20 and 25 per cent. Surely a country that can raise billions of dollars for war can provide proper allowances for soldiers' dependents. In the Globe and Mail of to-day appears a report of an interview between a number of ladies and the Minister of Finance. The minister is reported to have said:
The man who enlists makes a sacrifice, and I am asking whether it is ever possible to make up in money the difference between the man who goes and the man who stays at home.
Later on the minister is reported to have asked:
The question is, can the country pay it?
Surely the Minister of Finance does not question the ability of this country to provide properly for the dependents of our soldiers overseas. The adoption of some system of selective compulsory training would have the effect of placing every man and woman of Canada where he or she could serve best in a total war effort. Until such a method is adopted I submit that we are not making anything like a total war effort. The time for this is not to-morrow or next week or next session; it is right now. I sincerely hope that this house will not be permitted to adjourn without some announcement being made by the Prime Minister. I hope we shall be told how Canada is going to make a total war effort and how the necessary man-power will be secured.
Speaking a few days ago in this house, the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) said that the responsibility for obtaining men for the army rested upon the members of this house and the people whom they represented in the constituencies. I disagree with that ' statement. The responsibility for obtaining the necessary men rests upon the shoulders of the Minister of National Defence and upon the shoulders of the government which he represents.
The Minister of National War Services (Mr. Thorson) dealt in detail with certain regulations which had been passed by his department. He referred to the fact that a recruit could be examined by any doctor he wished, and he said also that there had been a large number of rejections. I should like to ask him if any further examination is made besides the first one, and whether or not any complaints have been made about this method. One hears various stories about the methods which have been adopted in some training centres to induce men to enlist for active service, often referred to as press-gang methods. As long as it is felt that there should be only voluntary enlistments, the method of inducing men to enlist which has been adopted in certain training centres should be stopped.
These are probably the most important regulations which have been passed in years, and yet they were passed by order in council. They affect several hundred thousand young men, and yet they were not considered of sufficient importance to be brought into this house for debate. The minister made it quite clear that there were no total exemptions. I should like to draw to his attention, as I have done before, the fact that many young farmers have been called up, in many cases only sons. The government have been urging increased production of bacon and other farm products, and yet in many cases they take away the only help left available to the farmer. Many farmers are reducing the number of cattle, sheep and hogs on their farms and cutting down in other production. Only ten days ago I was in a small country store in the township of Rawdon, one of the largest cheese-producing centres in eastern Ontario. I found seven farm sale bills. Upon inquiry I found that in every case the farmer was disposing of all his stock and assets because he could get no help. Some of these men had sons who have been called for service, while others had found that they could not compete with the prices paid for labour in the industrial centres.
I suggest to the Minister of National Services that he try to work out some scheme whereby young farmers and the only sons of farmers should be granted some form of exemption. If I understoood the minister correctly, he stated that such men could apply for exemption or an extension up to six months, and then at the end of that period a second exemption could be applied for but that that ended it. A farmer must plan ahead the same as anyone else. Many farmers have pointed out to me that if they are going to
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lose their help next summer they want to know ahead of time in order that they may reduce their stock and make other necessary arrangements.


Thomas Vien: I would remind the hon. gentleman and the committee that the special rules established for this debate are that we should debate the statement of the minister which is at the moment before the committee. The statement now before the committee is that of the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald). It will be very difficult for the chair to carry out the instructions of the committee if hon. members do not cooperate and confine their remarks to the department whose affairs are now before the committee. In discussing the affairs of the Department of National War Services the hon. member is anticipating, because the statement of the minister of that department will come before the committee after it has finished with the Department of National Defence for Naval Services. I shall certainly try to be broad in my rulings, but I am afraid that the hon. gentleman is going beyond what is reasonable.


George Stanley White: I understood the Prime
Minister to say that the Minister of National War Services was here in addition to the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services.


Thomas Vien: Yes; but the business
before the committee now is the statement of the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services. After that we shall take up the affairs of the Department of National War Services.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I want to ask one question.


George Stanley White: If I can have just a moment I will finish, and defer the further remarks I wish to make regarding matters which pertain to the Department of National War Services. I wish just to refer to the little blue pamphlet issued by the department in which there is a brief quotation which applies to the 11th of November; it is from the immortal poem of John McCrae:
Take up our quarrel with the foe!
To you from failing hands we throw The torch-be yours to hold it high!
This is Armistice day, and I would remind hon. members that those two words "to you" apply to every one of us. That is the challenge from the comrades who sleep in Flanders fields. I hope and trust that we shall not fail them.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should
like to ask the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services what is the position with respect to over-recruiting for the navy. Representations have been made to me that in the city of Halifax alone are 2,000 recruits who have not been called for duty; they have been termed by some people-not by me-"the penguins"; they sit and wait. Perhaps the minister has heard that term. It is evident, I think, from the information which comes to hand that there has been over-recruiting for the navy having regard to the facilities available for their training and to their usefulness on the seas. What is the position with respect to the whole situation, not only that in the city of Halifax, which I assume is the centre of the greatest naval activities, but elsewhere in Canada?


Hon. A. L. MACDONALD (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services):: A distinction, I think, must be made between the number of men who apply to serve in the navy and the number of those who are actually enrolled. When I said the other day that there were 4,000 men on the waiting list, I meant men who had not yet joined the navy but who had expressed willingness to join and whose applications to that effect were on file in the department. So far as I know at this time, there is no such condition as my hon. friend has heard of, in the city of Halifax or elsewhere. There are no 2,000 men there who should be at sea and who are not at sea. My hon. friend the leader of the opposition and my hon. friend the member for Yale will understand what is the situation. A very considerable number of men is required at bases established on shore-a number at least equal to the number afloat; and in Halifax, Esquimalt and other cities we have a considerable number of men ashore, but that by no means implies that they are doing nothing, that their time is wasted. I shall be glad to look further into the matter, but at this time, so far as I know, there are no such conditions as those to which my hon. friend referred.


Mr. STIRLING:: I did not quite follow the minister's answer, because it seems to me to imply that there are none waiting to get into
the service-


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Oh, yes.


Grote Stirling: -but there are those in the service now who are being employed on shore.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No. It is the reverse. There are, as I said the other day, 4,000 waiting to get into the service.

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They are as yet in civilian life, but their applications are on file, and I assume that most of them would be available if called upon. They are those who have written in at one time or another expressing a desire to join the navy. That is the waiting list.
As to the men on shore, of course there are men on shore-there always will be-for the navy, a number at least equal to the number at sea. Reinforcements are needed, and the depots must be kept up. But to say that there are 2,000 in Halifax who are more or less wasting time, idling, is to say what is not so. There are a number in training there. Some of them will go to sea shortly. But I know of no case where time is being wasted and men are merely loafing.


Grote Stirling: Then, what will the policy be with regard to these youngsters who for several years past have had their eye on sea service, and are anxious to enter that service when they attain the proper age? Will they be given any sort of preferred consideration, or will they have to wait until this two, three, or four thousand waiting list has been disposed of?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The class to which my hon. friend refers is a very desirable class for the navy. It is known that those young men who have been training as boys in such organizations as the sea cadets are able to take their places in the navy with less training than men who have had no such experience. I should say that those who belonged to the sea cadet corps in one part of the country or another have an excellent chance of getting into the navy. They are all young and keen, and their services can be put to use more quickly on account of their training.
When I gave the figure of 4,000, my hon. friend will understand, of course, that some of those are probably unfit; some may be a little over-age, but that js the number of applications on file in the department.


Mr. GRAYDON:: Would the minister indicate in a general way how many are being taken on per month in the navy?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: In the last year the number has run at the rate of something over 1,000 per month. It varies from month to month, but that is about the average since November last.


Mr. MUTCH:: To go back to the question of these chaps who have expressed their desire to enlist in the navy; in the district which I represent there is a considerable number, included in that 4,000, who want to
join the navy, and it has been necessary to tell them, and they have been told, that for some months at least there is no prospect of their being able to get in on the quota for that particular station. Is it a matter of policy to encourage those young men who are among the more desirable to become recruits in another branch of the service, and not to wait until next April or whenever they are likely to be called upon to join the naval services?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: It would be asking a great deal of me to ask that I should urge the most desirable class of recruits to join other branches of the service. I have not done that. I do not know whether the Minister of National Defence, or the Minister of National Defence for Air has endeavoured to attract these men. I have no doubt men have joined other services because they are afraid it would be too long before they could get into the navy.


Grote Stirling: May I take it that the men on the waiting list whose applications have been received are awaiting entry into the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is the great feeding ground for the navy now. It is difficult to say exactly what the percentage is, but by far the overwhelming majority of those who come into the navy come in through the volunteer reserve divisions. They are really now the back-bone of the recruiting system.


Grote Stirling: That being the situation, there may be a different category. There is the old category of boys attaining a certain age and entering the Royal Canadian Navy itself, not via the volunteer reserve. Is that so?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Is there such a category now?


Grote Stirling: Yes.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: They are not taking boys into the Royal Canadian Navy now.


Mr. LOCKHART:: What is the minimum age at which they will be accepted?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Eighteen.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Following on the suggestion of the minister about the preferment that might be given sea cadets who had training, boys who had received training for three or four years in sea cadet corps, are these young men, as they become eighteen, given
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preferment over those who have had no training and no inclination for such training up to the present time, or must they take their place definitely with the others?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is a difficult question. I should say that in recruiting, if there were twenty-five candidates before a recruiting officer, five of whom he knew to be excellent material, he would take those five first if he could. That is almost inevitably the course that would be followed.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: That is the policy outlined by the department?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No, it is not outlined. No policy has been outlined of giving preferment to anyone, but recruiting officers take the best men available.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I do not wish to pursue this point very far, but in my district there is an active sea cadet corps and we have young men who have grown up in that sort of work. We have had one of the greatest developments there in the past few months, thanks to one of the service clubs and other public-spirited citizens. We have a great many groups of young men who have been in training for three, four and five years. There seems to be a feeling that they have to mark time and take their place with the others just as if they had never had the advantage of this training. That is the point I want to have definitely cleared up, so that these young men will feel that their training is not lost, and that they will not have to take the usual place in line with those who desire to enlist in the Royal Canadian Navy. I am anxious to have that point cleared up. Will the minister indicate whether these boys will have preferment, having attained the age of eighteen, if they wish to offer their services? Are they not given some preferment as a matter of policy?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: It is not a matter of policy in the department to give preferment to anyone, but I put this to my hon. friend. If he were recruiting and he had the opportunity to take twenty men of the type he has been describing or twenty men who were absolutely green, he would undoubtedly take the twenty who had training.
I presume the naval recruiting officers will do the same. These men can be made ready for the sea more quickly than the others, and there are some things that they know already; consequently it is desirable to take them, and that is the practice. But it would be a great mistake for the department to order that a certain class or group should be given priority or preferment as a matter of right. That would be a mistake and it has not been done, 
though in practice I have no doubt that what my hon. friend says does happen. He will understand, of course, that recruiting for the Canadian navy is now done chiefly through these volunteer reserve divisions which are in eighteen different parts of Canada. If a sea cadet corps is not near a division, the boys may have a little problem in that way. If the sea cadet corps the hon. member has in mind is not so situated, there may be some difficulty on that account. The boys have to go to the nearest volunteer reserve division to enlist, and that might put them to some inconvenience. But we cannot undertake at this time to establish any more volunteer reserve divisions because we are short of the trained officers to command them.


Mr. BROOKS:: I quite agree with the minister that he can hardly give preference to sea cadets. I know from my own experience that in the maritime provinces there are a great many young men who have spent their whole lives on the sea. While they have not had an opportunity of training as sea cadets, they have had very practical training on the sea, and these men do wish to get into the navy. Unfortunately, in recruiting, we have had to turn them down recently, and it has been a great disappointment to men on the southern coast of New Brunswick and along the Northumberland straits, as well as in other parts where they have followed the sea all their lives. The men in our part of Canada seem to have a great desire to enlist in the navy, and it is unfortunate that we cannot take more men of that type. They prefer it to the infantry, the air force or other services.
Will the minister answer a question with regard to the Royal Naval college? He mentioned the other day that the college would be opened in the fall of 1942. I should like him to explain the method of selecting students for this college, the age, and whether they will be selected proportionately throughout Canada -I mean whether there will be a quota for each province the same as for the Royal Military college at Kingston. He might also tell us the number they propose to train at the college when it opens in the fall of 1942.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I am glad to give that information. For the naval college the number of students will be 100. The method of selection will be somewhat the same as in the Royal Military college, namely, by provinces. As far as possible we shall try -to give cadetships in proportion to the number from the particular province who apply. That seems to be the fairest way of doing it. As regards the other conditions of entry, educational qualifications and so on, broadly speaking, the boy must have junior

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matriculation at least. There will be one-year courses for the older boys and two years for the younger. The prospectus will be issued shortly setting forth all these details.


Mr. POTTIER:: In connection with the
preferment mentioned by the hon. member, I never agreed with the policy of trying to get a large number of men in the navy or naval forces who are inland men and have never seen a tide or high or low water. If preference is given to those men simply because they are in thickly-populated centres where they can form into groups, whether of sea cadets or otherwise, thus setting back men who have lived all their lives by the sea and know the things peculiar to the sea, it would be doing a great injustice. I have always thought there should be more facilities for taking advantage of the experience of young men who have lived all their lives on the seashore. There are some things that they do not have to learn. It is a misfortune that we have not some organization which would enable groups of such men even in small centres to be trained in the same way that they are trained in central Canada. We are not making the best use of the valuable material available on our coasts. I do not want to discourage enlistment in the army, but we have men in the army who have lived all their lives by the sea, and it is a pity 6ome system is not worked out to make the best use of their experience.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I just want this clarified. The impression is abroad among these young men that they just had to take their course and they had some preference. I rather agree that young men living by the sea are good material for the naval services.


Mr. GREEN:: Apparently Canada will soon be faced with the necessity of recruiting several thousand men for the merchant marine because a hundred cargo ships are to be completed next year. What plans have been made for recruiting these merchant seamen and what training will be given them, also what rates of pay, and will they be eligible for pension? I do not think it is possible to raise this number of men in a hurry; plans will have to be made quite a while before the men are called for. There should be something under way now in that connection.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: That is a question which perhaps my hon. friend should direct to the acting Minister of Transport. I think the minister made some reference to that point the other night and indicated that a maiming station is to be established where merchant seamen would be
trained. The Department of Naval Services is not directly concerned with that problem, but has on many occasions discussed it with the Department of Transport and volunteered to do anything asked by way of assisting in or supervising the training, in gunnery, for example, and that sort of thing, of these merchant seamen. That is purely voluntary on our part.


Howard Charles Green: I asked the Minister of
Munitions and Supply last night, and he said it was a matter for the Minister of Transport and the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services. Surely some one should know something about this policy. On page 4093 of Hansard the Minister of National Defence for Naval Affairs is reported as saying:
The protection of merchant shipping is one of our tasks, but the provision of merchant ships and of merchant seamen is in other hands. The Canadian naval staff, however, have taken a deep interest in the training and supply of merchant seamen and have cooperated with the Department of Transport in the provision of manning pools in this country, where merchant seamen may register and remain while awaiting employment on a merchant ship.
Surely someone in the ministry can give more information about these plans, if there are any. It may be that it is still just talk.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The statement read by my hon. friend bears out what I said to-day. We are to protect merchant shipping by escort vessels, yes, but we are not charged with the duty of providing seamen or ships. I did go on to say that we have taken an interest in the matter through some of our officers. We have cooperated with the Department of Transport in establishing manning pools and drawing up schemes for the training of merchant seamen, but that, as I say, is a purely voluntary effort on our part. My department has nothing to do with providing merchant seamen, that is for the Department of Transport. I think the remarks of the acting Minister of Transport last night cleared up the question the hon. member has in mind.


Howard Charles Green: The Minister of Munitions
and Supply said, as reported on page 4223 of II ansard:
The Department of Transport has taken in hand the task of training crews for merchant ships. Manning pools have been established at Halifax and Montreal and are now in operation. Training schools are also being built in connection with these manning pools. It is the intention to pursue an intensive programme of enlisting and training candidates for the merchant marine.
It may be that is as far as the matter has gone. But the committee should be told whether that is the situation, or if the plans have been developed further we should know.
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For example, are young men to be recruited for the merchant marine, or will they be older men not eligible for the navy or the other fighting forces? Must they be in A category, and will arrangements be made to protect their wives and children? All these details should be given at as early a date as possible so that right across the country men who are interested in the merchant marine may be able to make plans to enlist; otherwise we may find ourselves with a lot of ships and no one to man them.


Mr. HOWE:: The manning pool is something more than my hon. friend suggests, merely a place for seamen to register. It is a place where seamen can really sign on for service and go on pay. A ship discharges a crew on this side. These men can immediately go to the manning pool, be provided with housing, if they stay in port, and remain on pay until such time as they are assigned to another ship. Similarly any Canadian can register at the manning pool. If he requires training; if he is not up to the standard required for merchant ships, there is a school which will give him that training, and of course throughout the period he is on pay.
As acting minister I have not the intimate knowledge of the situation that perhaps I should have, but I shall be very glad to consult with my deputy and give my hon. friend any further information that may be available. We have an organization in charge of exceptionally well qualified men, and we believe that the manning pools and the schools for merchant seamen will make a real contribution.


Howard Charles Green: I suggest that these manning pools should be opened in other parts of the country. Apparently at the present time there is one in Montreal and one in Halifax. I think there should be one or perhaps two on the west coast.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I believe that is contemplated.


Howard Charles Green: It may be that there should also be manning pools at the great lakes ports. How many men make up the crew of one of these 10,000-ton merchant ships?


Clarence Decatur Howe: When I was in charge of the Department of Transport I was well versed in these matters, but since I have been devoting my attention to the Department of Munitions and Supply I have forgotten many of the details. I would not attempt to give information of that sort, which might not be reliable. I will, however, obtain a memo on the whole subject and be prepared to give the information later in the session.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What
provision is being made for the training of navigating officers? I think the minister will find a great dearth of these men.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should think the school would certainly give instruction of that kind, leading to officer's papers; but, as I say, I should prefer not to go into detail with regard to these schools until I find out more about them.


Howard Charles Green: Then I should like to ask the navy minister a question having to do with rates of pay of men in the navy. My understanding is that men in the navy receive less pay than men in the other fighting forces. That understanding may be incorrect, but if it is correct perhaps the minister will tell us why that should be the situation.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No, that is not correct, to answer the question generally. There is some difference, which has existed for a long time, between certain ranks in the navy and corresponding ranks in the army, but to say that generally men in the navy are paid less than the others is not correct. One may be able to take one rank in the navy and find some difference when one compares it with the corresponding rank in the army or air force, but as a general rule the pay runs about the same.


Howard Charles Green: Will the minister mention the ranks in which there is a difference? I understand, for instance, that there is a difference between the pay of a lieutenant in the army and the pay of a naval officer holding equivalent rank, and it may be the same as between non-commissioned officers in the army and petty officers in the navy. Is there any reason for this situation? Are we simply following an old British custom instead of paying men on a Canadian basis? If so, it does not seem the fair thing to do.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I think this question was discussed in the house at considerable length last session. At that time I stated that when it is said that a man in the navy is paid so much a day, it must be remembered that in many instances there is some extra pay. There is hard-lying money, and there are various other extras which the men in the navy may receive. Until recently sublieutenants in the navy were receiving less than lieutenants in the army, which would be the corresponding rank. That situation has been rectified, however, within recent months, so that now a sublieutenant in the navy receives the same pay as a lieutenant in the army. I cannot undertake, at the moment, to give my hon. friend a

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comparison between all ranks in the three services. I have that information, but it is not here. I can get it and table it to-morrow.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any reason why they should not be all on the same basis?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: There is the one reason which I just mentioned, namely, that in the navy there are little odds and ends that are sometimes tacked on to a man's pay, or even an officer's pay, which may make the total emolument equal to that received by a man in the army or the air force. It is true that if one considers the basic pay, $4 or $5 a day, he may think there is a difference; but when one works it out, he finds that it is pretty generally the same. I admit that there are some differences. Some men in the navy get a little more than those holding corresponding ranks in the army, while some get a little less.


Howard Charles Green: I raised the question because I know there has been a certain amount of discontent by reason of that fact, and I think the situation should be rectified as far as possible.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The whole question is being inquired into now by an interservice committee on pay. I agree with my hon. friend that perhaps some of these extras which are allowed in one way or another should be dispensed with and that there should be a uniform rate of pay for similar ranks in all three services. As I say, that question is being studied by a committee. In the meantime I have tried to rectify some cases in the navy where I thought increases were justified, and the case of the sublieutenant was one of these.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: We were pleased to hear of the expansion of the navy, as outlined by the minister the other day. I think at that time he said the personnel had been increased to 27,000 officers and men. We know that increase has been brought about over a very short period of time, and I should like to ask hovr the navy has been able to train officers to take charge of so many vessels and such a large number of men, whether we have been able to do it all here in Canada or -whether we have had to bring in officers from elsewhere. In the army we know there were a great many militia units with trained officers, so that it was easy to expand the army; but for the navy to expand so quickly and still have competent officers seems to me to be something phenomenal, as the minister has said, unless some of these officers were brought from somewhere outside Canada, because we had so little in the way of training facilities in this dominion.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Of course for the last fifteen or seventeen years we did have a naval militia, the volunteer naval reserve, which in a sense would correspond with the army militia. They trained at certain times, and they were of great value when war came and the demand for officers and petty officers became so pressing. Apart from that, and other Canadian sources, we have not relied on any other quarter for our officers and petty officers. I think within the last year we may have had from England one or two officers with very special training of one kind or another; I do not think there were more than perhaps two. The rest have come from our own ranks. While it has been difficult to train officers and petty officers of that kind, it must be remembered that these men who are now undertaking training receive, in perhaps one year, the training which in peace time would require three or four years. They gain by experience which, in peace time, would require years and years to acquire.
We try to break them in with experienced officers. There is splendid material in the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve, which includes those men who have come up from the merchant shipping lines. These are men who are skilled at sea. The same problem is being faced in the old country. They have expanded their navy, and they have had to hurry up their training as best they could, and entrust young men with heavy responsibilities. But there is no other way it can be done.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Will the naval college be located in the east, the west, or the middle?


Howard Charles Green: Possibly up at Churchill.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: It is almost certain that the college will be located in the west. That is the opinion of the experts who have studied the question. Climatic conditions out there, the possibility of doing sea work at all times of the year, make the west more desirable in their opinion.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: We do not want fair-weather sailors; we want men who can take it.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: In the opinion of the naval officers it is easier to train men at the west coast in the winter months. It is colder in the east, and that fact offers some difficulty when men are asked to get out in open boats to do boat work in December, January and February. The weather is more favourable on the Pacific coast. For these reasons we believe better training can be given on the west coast during the college term.


Howard Charles Green: About a year ago the government announced that it was planning to build destroyers and light cruisers in Canada. The other day the minister said wTe were about to
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begin the construction of destroyers. Has the plan for building light cruisers been given up, or are we to build them eventually?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I do not believe I ever made any announcement about light cruisers. Certainly they will not be built in the immediate future. At the moment there is no plan to build such craft in this country. The plans for building destroyers are well in hand, and we hope to begin that work very soon. This time it will be done on the east coast, at Halifax.


Thomas Vien: Do I understand that this concludes the debate on the statement by the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services?


Richard Burpee Hanson: It concludes the questioning, unless someone else wishes to speak.


Thomas Vien: Then the Department of National War Services will be before the committee.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: If I may have permission I should like to ask the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) some questions which should have been asked earlier in the afternoon.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have no objection.


John George Diefenbaker: I refer particularly to the minister's remarks respecting aircraft production. At page 4082 of Hansard he is reported as having said:
Our aircraft industry has manufactured in Canada and placed in service since the outbreak of war, or has assembled in Canada, 3,749 aircraft.
How many of those aircraft were actually manufactured in Canada? Then, has aircraft production in Canada met the expectations expressed by him to the committee in March and April last?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have not the break-down as between planes manufactured in Canada and those assembled here, but I shall obtain that information. As to expectations-yes, I believe all our plants are manufacturing pretty well to the output we anticipated. The programme has been changed to some extent in that there has been a definite move toward larger planes, and away from trainer and operational planes. Therefore the numbers may be out a bit. Certainly, however, from the point of view of man-hours and output I believe our programme is all we ever intended it to be.


John George Diefenbaker: How is the manufacture of parts proceeding, as far as elementary training planes are concerned? During

the past summer the committee on national war expenditures visited the various elementary flying training schools in eastern Canada. Generally speaking, one of the chief complaints made by those operating the schools had to do with the failure on the part of the aircraft industry to supply the necessary parts. Almost without exception we were advised in the training schools that for periods of two or three months at a stretch often as - many as 20 per cent of the number of planes allotted to a particular school could not be put into the air by reason of the failure of Federal Aircraft. It was criticized, in certain instances. Then there was mention of failure by some of the private manufacturers to supply parts.


Mr. POWER:: Is my hon. friend talking about elementary schools?


John George Diefenbaker: Yes.


Mr.   POWTER@: Federal Aircraft is not
building anything for them.


John George Diefenbaker: I am wrong in that connection, as far as the elementary schools are concerned. The minister is right when he says that the parts do not come from them.


Charles Gavan Power: They are not for elementary schools, then?


John George Diefenbaker: That is correct; I should not have used the word "elementary". But, in so far as elementary schools are concerned, is it a fact to-day that planes are being kept on the ground on account of the failure of manufacturers to supply necessary parts or is that condition improving, and are the necessary parts being supplied as required?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I believe any country which must take care of vast fleets of aeroplanes find a difficulty with respect to parts. The difficulty is not so much that of having the parts in the country as it is that of having the right part at the right place when it is needed. There are standard lists of parts made. When aircraft are produced, about 20 per cent are made of spare parts, and these are stored at strategic points to take care of overhauls. The difficulty is that there can be no certainty as to whether a spare list will be correct for a certain area. It may be correct for the whole of Canada, but it often happens-in fact it happens regularly-that in a certain area there may be a run on spare parts of a certain type. When that condition arises we, of course, turn in and make more spare parts.
The greatest difficulty has come from the British type of planes which we received early in the war, and for which we did not receive an adequate supply of spare parts. Due to shipping losses, and due more particu-

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larly to the fact that it is only natural that one takes care of his own needs first, we have had difficulty in obtaining spare parts for those planes. The spare parts problem is just as acute in England as it is in Canada. We ordered very liberally of spare parts, and I think my colleague will agree with me when I say that the situation is better.


Charles Gavan Power: There are some parts that cannot be made in Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is true. The British parts that cannot be made in Canada offer one great obstacle, but we are making certain British parts here to take care of some of the British planes that we have. We are gradually catching up with the situation. I may say that as long as we have the heavy overhaul programme that we have to-day there will be difficulty with spare parts. The problem in connection with spare engine parts is more difficult because the engines are not made in this country. But I do not think Federal Aircraft should be blamed. It is the British type of Anson that is giving us the trouble.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I heard that the aeroplane industry is progressing so rapidly in a scientific way that aeroplanes which were considered modern a year ago are obsolete to-day.


Charles Gavan Power: That would: apply largely to fighters, but not to trainers.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It does not apply to the class of aeroplane that we have been making or assembling in Canada. I can appreciate that that might be so in view of what I heard in the old country. I was wondering how it would have affected our own production if we had set up factories to make a certain type of aeroplane and then found it to be obsolete in a short time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It all complicates the spare parts problem. We have four types of Anson aeroplanes, and each type requires certain spare parts. As one type goes out of production we must make ample provision for spare parts. The planes which were bought in the earlier stages now present an overhaul problem as, in some instances, spare parts have gone out of production. As I say, we have met this problem by organizing production in Canada


Charles Gavan Power: We have had to replace
some of the older types of planes with a type which could be produced in Canada, even though they were more expensive.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Are we doing anything at all to get into the production of aeroplane engines?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: It seems to me that that is likely to become a bottleneck in the future. If all engines are produced in Great Britain and the United States, I think it ultimately will become a problem. Has any research work been done, or have any investigations been made by the department with a view to getting into the production of aeroplane engines?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That problem has been considered carefully. We inquired into the source of engines, both on this continent and in England, and an adequate supply was assured to us. It certainly would be more convenient if we could manufacture engines here, particularly in meeting the spare parts problem, but that cannot be done. Certain engines have become obsolete and we have a spare parts problem. The production of engines required by Canada would create a tremendous problem, and after a most exhaustive study it was decided that we had not the man-power or the machine-tool capacity to meet this problem in full.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is a
tremendous problem in war time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Terrific. Australia manufactures aeroplane engines in a small way, but we should bear in mind that Australia has never undertaken the production of automobile and truck engines as we have. It would be most difficult to undertake an intricate task of that kind and do it well, and we thought we would be well advised to leave this field to those countries that are better organized to undertake it.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Australia is so far away from sources of supply that she is practically forced to manufacture her own engines.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The President of the United States has indicated that that country will have a production of 50,000 planes a year and they will take care of their own engine needs. After the war aviation in this country will certainly grow, and at some time or another Canada will have to get into the production of aeroplane engines. It is to be hoped that the government has some plan for the future production of our own aeroplane engines.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We must realize that after the war there will be engine capacity beyond all dreams of possible use. The engine capacity that is being created is tremendous. My hon. friend refers to the aeroplane production that is being planned in the United States, but I would tell him that engine production is
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being kept in step and our requirements are being considered in that programme. I think we may expect to have adequate supplies of engines during the war and a great glut of engine-making capacity after the war.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Grote Stirling: Mr. Chairman, the minister may remember that some months ago I drew his attention to the fact that Canadian news in south Africa did not seem to compare, in volume at least, with news from the other dominions. There are in the mining sections of south Africa a very large number of Canadians, and they are disappointed at listening so continually through the British Broadcasting Corporation, with messages emanating from Daventry, to descriptions of the war effort of the other dominions, and wonder what Canada has been doing. I drew the minister's attention to the matter at the time, and he told me that he would see what could be done with regard to it. Is he in a position now to describe further broadcasts of purely Canadian news in the other dominions?


Hon. J. T. THORSON (Minister of National War Services):: The subject of
building a shortwave broadcasting station has been receiving carefid consideration, but no decision in the matter has yet been arrived at. That will, perhaps, answer my hon. friend's question as to the point of broadcasting from this side.


Grote Stirling: Not entirely, because evidently the other dominions are able to make considerable use of Daventry; and I have always wondered why Canada should not place herself in the same position as, for instance, Australia and New Zealand with regard to news in south Africa.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: We have not taken any steps in the direction of broadcasting Canadian information from Daventry.


Grote Stirling: But is the minister not prepared to do so? If Australia can do so, and if New Zealand can do so, surely, for the benefit of our Canadians in south Africa, it would be desirable to give them information with regard to what Canada is doing. Otherwise, these Canadians believe that Canada is slipping behind.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: We have not done anything in that direction from the point of view of broadcasting. Of course, a number of copies of our other public information publications such as the one on Canada's war effort do go to south Africa. I would, however, be glad to give further consideration to the suggestion made by my hon friend.


Grote Stirling: To whom do these pamphlets go? As I have explained, these Canadians in south Africa are spread all over those very considerable areas where mining is the principal occupation; and it is inconceivable that these publications can be sent by post to such of those Canadians of whom the minister may be aware. Where they are in isolated situations-mining camps, mining towns and the like-it does tend rather to disgust them if they hear continuous descriptions of what other dominions are doing in this war effort, and they do not get their own Canadian news.


Howard Charles Green: Probably there is the same situation in other parts of the empire. Have any steps been taken so that Australia, New Zealand and India may have some information as to what Canada is doing in the war?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The same method is in use. We do distribute to many portions of the globe leaflets giving particulars and facts relating to Canada's war effort, but we have not been broadcasting to the other dominions.


Howard Charles Green: Would it not be possible to make some arrangement with the British Broadcasting Corporation so that at times such information would be given by them?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I replied to the hon. member for Yale that I would be glad to give further consideration to broadcasting from Daventry. If that is done, broadcasting can be arranged to all the dominions.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: On this question, I should like to mention that African news comes over the German shortwave station, that is the 25-metre band, and we get it here quite plainly. They also have the 19, 20, 25, 31, 221 and 263 millimetre bands, over which they are broadcasting. Is anything being done in Canada to try to stop those shortwave broadcasts from coming here from Germany, because they do not say very nice things about Canada or the British empire?


Richard Burpee Hanson: How can we
stop them?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The
British government have stopped the Germans from broadcasting into England from their Norwegian stations. Is there not some method

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we can work out here, perhaps in conjunction with the United States government? This broadcast comes in during the morning from 10 to 10.30, and it is as clear as a bell; I am informed, in fact, that it is probably rebroadcast either in this country or in the United States.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I am not aware that Great Britain has stopped shortwave broadcasting from Germany-


Gordon Knapman Fraser: From the northern part of Norway.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: or from northern occupied countries. I hardly see how she could do that. I do not know how we could stop shortwave broadcasting from Germany or from German-occupied countries to this continent.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That station in Norway broadcast for some months before the British stopped it, but they have now, I understand, two stations in England interfering on it to stop it.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: We have nothing of that sort in Canada.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That
particular matter was brought up in the British House of Commons.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: We have nothing of that sort here.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: On the subject of publicity generally, I should like to make a suggestion to the minister, and there are a couple of questions I wish to ask him.
The only way I know of to deal with information coming in such as we have been just discussing is to blot it out with a little broadcasting of our own. I am not particularly interested in the subject of shortwave radio broadcasting at the moment. I am interested in the dissemination of proper information about Canada's war effort, in Canada primarily, and then in the United States. It so happens that a large percentage of the Canadian people do not yet know, in spite of all that has been done, exactly what is going on; and certainly, if I may judge from the considerable numbers of United States citizens who pass through my own hands as recruits for the Canadian army, if one may assume that their knowledge is in any degree indicative of the general knowledge in the places from which they come, we are greatly mistaken if we imagine that much is known over there about our war effort.
I was encouraged by what the minister said the other day about the sending out of leaflets and pamphlets containing factual information,
but even that is not, I think, equal to the sort of top-flight reporting to which the United States public is accustomed. There is no doubt that our well-wishers in the United States are hungry for information about what we are doing, for two purposes-the encouragement it gives them in combating sentiment which is not friendly to us, and the inspiration it provides to their own people. I doubt whether the average United States citizen, any more than most Canadians, goes in much for either reading or listening to speeches, no matter how effective they are.
I might except the fireside chats of the president, though competent radio statisticians tell us that even he, who has perhaps the second largest radio audience in the world, does not begin to reach everybody. The minister might well consider encouraging those responsible for the dissemination of knowledge of our war effort to throw away their typewriters, give their voices a rest and invest in more cameras. We are a lazy people, accustomed to getting a good deal of information through our eyes. There is hardly a decent publication on the American continent that would not use a good picture, particularly if it could get it for nothing. The newsreaders have become accustomed to it, and I should like to know whether the minister would consider a wider use of pictorial news, particularly on the other side of the line.
I want to say a word with respect to the present utilization of quotas, but someone else may want to say something with regard to publicity and I will let that stand for the moment.


Mr. L. PHILIPPE PICARD (Bellechasse):: I do not intend to speak at any length or to analyse in detail the reports before the committee, one specific item relating to the question of publicity, about which my hon. friend has spoken, I should like to discuss, namely, the publicity given by the United States press to our war effort. I trust I may be permitted at this stage to make a few remarks on this subject.
On November 4 the hon. member for Parkdale (Mr. Bruce) spoke of "the importance of having Canada's war effort made more widely known in the United States than it is at the present time". Later on, in the course of the same day, the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) asked for a "report on the work of the legation in Washington and what it had accomplished to counteract the sinister influence which has been depreciating Canada's war effort in the United States."
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If I may be allowed to be personal, I may say that I made it my duty, after the summer sessions of the war expenditures committee, to visit the United States, mainly Washington and New York, in order to acquaint myself better with the development of the defence programme there as well as with the opinion of our neighbours concerning the situation facing the world at large, and the grave decisions that will have to be taken by them at some time or another in the future.
It is not my intention to burden the committee with a recital of the conclusions I have reached on many important and interesting topics as a result of that trip. I reserve for some other day any observations I may wish to make as to the workings of the United States form of government as compared with ours, as well as the democratic control of government by the duly chosen representatives of the people even in time of war. Such more or less academic questions may just as well be treated later on, coupled with a study of the workings of our new extra-governmental set-up in the Department of Munitions and Supply, the Bank of Canada and its ramifications, and the other control agencies created since the war. I feel, however, it is my duty, since this question has been raised concerning one of the points I investigated while in the United States, to give the committee my humble opinion on the matter.
As to the publicity given our war effort by the United States press, I will admit that the impression I had after a few days in New York was that it was inadequate because it did not seem to reach the man in the street. I was astonished at the little that was known concerning what we were doing. It appeared to me, from this more or less elementary survey, that Canada's war effort was not only not front-page news but did not seem to have that news value there which we might have expected it to have. I must say, however, in all justice, that I have since then received a statistical survey by an agency dealing especially in inquiries of that sort, that reports that the United States press in July and August contained more items than appeared previously with regard to Canada, and that in September the condition was a little better. There is, however, still a lack of knowledge on the part of the public at large with respect to our contribution to the present conflict. Apart from the European war, apart from the far east question, the important international news which we find in the United States newspapers generally has to do with south American republics. Our cousins of the other America who were

never heard of in the United States press until a few years ago except when they overthrew a president are now front-page news, and Canada's main claim to fame for a large number of Americans is to have given its name to a ginger ale and supplied Madison Square Garden with hockey players.
Apart from some well-intentioned but not always outstanding articles on the question by some visiting reporters; apart from some articles by the representative of the New York Times in Ottawa; and apart from some of the more or less distorted reports by the rewrite men on the editorial staff of Time magazine, the only items of note which we find are reproductions of the criticism of our war effort as contained in the Tory Gazette and the Globe and Mail, and I do not think this is calculated to keep the people of New York well informed. I might also venture to say that while I was in New York some sort of exhibition was given which did not contribute to a fair understanding of our position. I am bound to say that it was given by the premier of Ontario in the course of speeches and statements during his last trip there. It is comforting, however, to see that in many other cities than New York editorials and reports have appeared about conditions in Canada giving a better impression and a better view of what is being done.
I have before me a report from the Cincinnati Inquirer of July 19, which states:
Every facet of the Canadian war effort is well planned and being well executed. Together, they constitute a splendid tribute to the courage, determination and ability of our friends across the border.
Later I came across an article that appeared in the Detroit Free Press in August, from which I quote:
Compared with our own war effort, Canada's is highly creditable. Stories to the contrary may have sprung from a misinterpretation of criticisms of the Canadian government's conduct of the war by certain Canadian newspapers.
I hasten to say that the situation as I found it in Washington was far different from that in New York. There I found government officials, members of the senate and of the house of representatives, generally well informed on all our doings, and the credit for that should be given to our own Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), because the persons more directly responsible for this better appreciation of Canada in Washington are working under his personal guidance. The first is our minister to the United States, Hon. Leighton McCarthy. I wish to take this opportunity to reassure any whom I have myself heard criticizing this appointment on

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the ground of the age of the appointee. I have seen our minister at work, and I wish to state that his keen mind, untiring energy and personal friendly connection of long standing with the president and many of his advisers, make him one of our most valuable assets and a contributing factor to a better understanding between our two countries. Also, while not overlooking the ability and usefulness of the staff of our legation, I wish to single out in connection with this matter of publicity the press attache who was selected four or five months ago and sent to Washington. I thought until a few minutes ago that he was under the ministry of information; I am now aware that he is directly under the Department of External Affairs. I may not be an expert in the matter, but when I compare the situation in Washington with that in New York and even between the New York press recently and in a period prior to the appointment of Mr. Reading, I would say his appointment was more than timely and seems to be proving a good one. This courteous, mild-mannered and apparently unassuming man seems already to have accomplished a good deal; his methods appear to have had a happier result in Washington than the blatant noises of more aggressive men.
Perhaps a different but just as efficient type of man might be needed by the ministry of information to handle the New York press boys if such an appointment were contemplated by the Prime Minister when he spoke in the house of the best possible methods being adopted by the Canadian government to supplement the actual sources of Canadian ' news in the United States. I have confidence that the Prime Minister as well as the ministry of information will deal with the New York situation and will bring about there as good results as have been achieved in Washington. May I emphasize at this time what the Prime Minister said in answer to the hon. member for Parkdale. He said that there is no "better means of making Canada's war effort known in the United States and elsewhere than to have our own press give a full appreciation of it," because most of the newspapers in the United States "obtain their information with respect to Canada's war effort from what appears in our own press."
When the leader of the opposition worries about the "sinister influences which have been depreciating Canada's war effort in the United States," he has only to think of some of his own friends, particularly of the Montreal Gazette and the Toronto Globe and Mail, because any criticism of the Canadian war
effort in the United States is not derived from opinion in the United States but is commented upon by that press as a result of the criticism seen in Canadian papers. Each outburst of unjustified criticism of the quality or extent of our participation is meat for the United States isolationists and their propagandists, and works ultimately against the interest of the British cause.
The same comment might apply to the harm done in this country by the unwarranted cries of the Tory press and Tory speakers concerning union government and other methods of carrying on the war. It appears evident that these apostles are not thereby so much helping the war effort of the country as furthering the political efforts of their party to blur the issues, alarm the country and divide the Liberals in order to gain power, or at least a share of it. I shall not at this moment discuss these questions because they are not so much in the public mind as the blatant noises of a few Tory newspapers and a boisterous minority would have us believe.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: The hon. member has
learned his lesson in a good school.


Louis-Philippe Picard: I am glad of the compliment; I take it as such. The people of Canada have given a mandate to the present government to drive the car, and the Conservatives are thumbing to hitch-hike-


Karl Kenneth Homuth: We do not want to hitchhike, but we want some decent driving.


Louis-Philippe Picard: They are not in the car and they already act like back-seat drivers.


Thomas Vien: Order. I would remind hon. gentlemen that when the Chairman stands, hon. gentlemen should sit down, and furthermore when the Chairman is addressing the committee, hon. gentlemen should have respect for the Chair, if not for the Chairman. That makes for orderly discussion. The hon. member for Bellechasse has the floor.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Let him keep it on a
higher plane.


Louis-Philippe Picard: I must apologize to the
Chair; I evidently have not learned well enough yet from "that good school".
The people knew well what they were doing when they selected the present government in an election held more than six months after the beginning of the war.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Oh, oh.


Thomas Vien: I must ask the hon. member for Waterloo South to keep order.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I bow to your ruling.
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Louis-Philippe Picard: The people of Canada remembered when they chose this government, what kind of drivers they had during the last war, and they did not want to have the same experience again. They knew in what condition that cr"w left Canada after governing from 1911 to 1921, wrecking the unity and harmony of the country by a false interpretation of the nature of our participation in the war. When the people of Canada realize what has already been accomplished and what is in process of execution in the way of training as well as production; when they grasp the facts contained in the clear and frank statements of the ministers charged more directly'with the conduct of the war effort, they will know that Canada up to now has done more proportionately than any other country, except some of those in which the war has been waged actively.
It is imperative, however, that these facts be kept constantly before the public. The ministry of information has issued an illuminating booklet on the matter, but that is not enough; these facts should be repeated time and again so that our people may understand the magnitude of our accomplishment and derive from that the pride of duty well done. There is nothing for a Canadian to be ashamed of when a country with a population under 11,500,000 has already over 520,000 men under arms-


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Oh, now, wait. Mr. Chairman, might I ask the hon. member a question? I think he should divide that 520,000 up as to where they are and what they constitute; otherwise we get a false impression throughout the whole country.


Louis-Philippe Picard: If my hon. friend will be patient, the division is coming in a moment. Of this number, 357,000 are enlisted for service overseas; 240,000 are in the active army, 90,000 are in the air force already blazing the skies with their exploits or in process of training, 27,000 are in the navy, convoying ships to Britain, patrolling our shores or getting ready to do so, and 170,000 are in our own territorial army manning the outposts of our home defences or training to play their part in the protection of their country.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Even the Liberals laugh at that.


Louis-Philippe Picard: There is nothing for a Canadian to be ashamed of when the industrial energy of his country has been geared in such a short time to make it one of the largest arsenals of the democracies, when its unending flow of munitions and war supplies is feeding the armies of our allies, when the

products of its agriculture are feeding the British isles. There is nothing for a Canadian to be ashamed of when this country is waging war to the tune of $4,000,000 daily, when it has lent to Britain in recent months nearly $1,000,000,000-


George Stanley White: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. Just before the dinner recess the Chairman ruled that I must stop my speech and confine myself to asking questions. I ask what the hon. member is doing now? He is reading a speech right through.


Louis-Philippe Picard: On the point of order I wish to remind my hon. friend that I have dealt first with the question of publicity under the ministry of information, and I am now dealing with the question of man-power, which is under the Department of National War Services, because it is they who call to arms the territorial army. It is all relevant. At any rate I shall have finished in a moment.
Canada, true to its historical traditions, is doing its duty towards itself, towards its allies, and towards the sacred cause of liberty and democracy. It is doing it under the guidance of a trusted government, elected in time of war, especially for the conduct of the war, and it will continue doing it despite the intrigues and the alarming cries of the Tories.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Has the minister given attention to the questions which I directed to him during the course of his remarks, with respect to the medical examination of those called for training purposes, and the position with respect to the numbers examined?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: When I spoke the other day the leader of the opposition and some other hon. gentlemen asked me a number of questions, some of which were repeated to-day by the hon. member for Hastings-Peterbor-ough. With regard to medical examinations, when a person receives notice that he is to be called up for training under the regulations he is notified to report for medical examination and may go to any doctor of his own choice. That is the first examination. That doctor is supposed to examine him in accordance with the standards that are set by the Department of National Defence.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Have all doctors those regulations, and do they know the requirements?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They are all informed?

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Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes; they also receive a detailed examination form which they are required to complete, which form is sent in to the divisional registrar's office. Then there is a medical adviser attached to each administrative division, who can check these forms and the findings of the examining physician. If he feels there is any doubt about the category in which the man has been placed, he can order the man to report to any other doctor whom he may name.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not want to interrupt unduly, but the minister says this medical adviser can check the forms, can do this and can do that. Does he?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes; all the forms are most carefully checked in the light of the answers given by the first examining physician. Then, if there is still doubt, the man can be sent to a revision board. These boards consist of three doctors, and we are setting them up in different parts of Canada. Then, when the man is turned over to the training centre, he is examined again, this time by a military medical board in that centre. Once the man is delivered to the training centre he ceases to come under the jurisdiction of my department and comes under the jurisdiction of the Department of National Defence.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Would the minister give us some data, some figures, as to how many have been reexamined by other doctors, for instance, or by the board in each military district?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I do not know that I could give the number of reexaminations.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is exactly what was asked.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The prime concern thus far has been to find men in the required categories, and there has been no difficulty in doing that. Up to now there has not been any object in reexamining all the rejects.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How many have been reexamined in each military district?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Not a great many of the rejects have been reexamined.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Naturally those who had been accepted would not be reexamined, except when they came to the training centres. No one but the rejects would be reexamined. Those who are accepted and automatically called up are examined at the training centre, as I understand it. I want to know how many of the rejects have been reexamined.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Not many of the rejects have been reexamined. It is only when the examination by the original physician indicates that perhaps an error has been made in the category, or where there is any doubt as to the category, that the man can be asked to report to another doctor. A further check has been made along these lines. In some instances reports have come in that a number of men were being rejected in a certain area by a certain doctor. These reports have been checked, and I am happy to say that I do not recall any instance in which it was found that a doctor was deliberately rejecting men or giving false information in these returns.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Could the minister give us information with regard to the men rejected, giving the percentage in each category, A, B and C?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes, I have that.


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: Could the minister give that by provinces, instead of for the whole of Canada?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: It is given here by
administrative divisions. I have quite a long table, showing the number of men examined by civilian physicians, with the number and percentage in each medical category, for the first nine military training periods, given by administrative divisions. With the consent of the committee I could place this table on Hansard.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it very long?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: It is quite a lengthy tabulation.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before
placing it on Hansard, would the minister tell the committee the gross number of men examined by the civilian doctors, the number placed in each class, and the number rejected in each class? I think the desire is to get the number rejected in each class, in the first instance, to see just how 'bad or how good is the health of these young men.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes, I can give that. The total number of men examined for the first nine military training periods was 209,298. Of these, 116,800, or 55-9 per cent, were found to be in category A; 21,651, or 10-4 per cent, to be in category B-l; 8,265, or 3-9 per cent, in category B-2; 9,341, or 4-5 per cent, in category C-l; 11,575, or 5-6 per cent, in category C-2; 5,909, or 2-8 per cent, in category D, and 35,587, or 17 per cent, in category E.
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Richard Burpee Hanson: How many of those are unsuitable for military service? I do not know the technicalities well enough to know how many would be called.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: My understanding is that the only ones taken for military training are those in category A.


Mr. CASSELMAN:: That is right.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: But I am not absolutely sure of that, because I have a recollection that some Bs and Cs were in the early months called for training. My recollection is-and I think I- am correct-that at present we are taking only category A men for actual training. They constitute 55-9 per cent of those examined by the civilian doctors.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The table to which the minister has referred is made out in divisions A, B, C and so on?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Could the minister give the key in relation to military districts?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: They do not absolutely check, but I could give a key which would be helpful. The divisions are named by letters of the alphabet. Division A has its headquarters at London, Ontario, and division B has its headquarters at Toronto.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Would the minister give the information also according to military districts? Can he do that? If he has not that information, I have it upstairs in my office, and could let him have it.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I could give the information respecting headquarters, and they check, roughly, although not exactly, with the military districts.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What number is A?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: It is No. 1. Division B is Toronto, No. 2; C is Kingston. They do not check actually with the military districts, because division D has its headquarters at Port Arthur, and division E has its headquarters at Montreal. Division F is at Quebec, G at Halifax, A at Saint John, I at Charlottetown, J at Winnipeg, K at Vancouver, M at Regina and N at Edmonton. The complete table is as follows:

Statement of the Number of Men Examined by Civilian Physicians Showing the Number and Percentage Placed in Each Medical Category for the
First Nine Military Training Periods
Admin. Div.	No. examined	A	%	B1A	. 14,161	8,633	61-0	1,352B	. 25,128	16,449	65-5	2,833C	. 14,287	8,542	59-8	1,451D	2,750	1,801	65-5	270E	. 49,688	22,309	44-9	5,596F	. 29,562	11,737	39-7	3,4406	7,778	4,442	57-1	528H	.. 9,127	5,506	60-3	7431	1,391	995	71-5	100J	. 12,179	8,246	67-7	1,207K	.. 15,279	9,684	63-4	1,585M	. 13,844	9,364	67-5	1,381N	. . 14,124	9,092	64-4	1,165Totals. ..	,. 209,298	116,800	55-9	21,651
Medical Categories
%	B2	%	Cl	%	C29-6	388	2-7	481	3-4	59611-3	740	2'9	879	3-5	94110-2	528	3-7	550	3-8	6099-8	61	2-2	106	3-9	10211-3	2,727	5-5	2,980	6-0	4,21611-6	2,007	6'7	2,060	7-0	2,2136-8	153	2-0	196	2-5	8238-1	225	2-4	257	2-7	2417-2	27	2-0	28	2-0	379-9	353	2-9	371	3-0	36710-4	455	30	516	3-4	5289-9	352	2-4	535	3'8	4328-2	249	1-8	382	2-7	47010-4	8,265	3-9	9,341	4-5	11,575%	D	%	E	%	M.B.4-2	185	1-3	2,453	17-3	733-7	382	1-5	2,904	11-5	4-3	282	1-9	2,322	16-3	33-7	31	1-1	379	13-8	8-5	1,697	3-4	10,066	20-3	977-5	919	3-1	7,186	24-3	10-6	28	0-3	1,608	20-7	2-6	501	5-8	1,654	18-1	2-7	15	1-0	189	13-6	3-0	222	1-8	1,413	11-6	3-4	232	1-5	2,279	14-9	3-0	336	2-4	1,444	11-0	3-3	1,079	7-7	1,687	11-9	5-6	5,909	2-8	35,584	17-0	173
%
0-2

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Howard Charles Green: As the minister has stated, it is alarming to think that there should be such a large percentage of young men unfit for service. He went on to point out that plans were in contemplation for conditioning some of these young men who had been rejected. He should tell the committee just how far those plans have gone. For instance, are the men who have been rejected eligible for treatment in hospitals of the Department of Pensions and National Health?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: No.


Howard Charles Green: May they go in there and have operations which will enable them to qualify for the forces?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: No, not yet.


Howard Charles Green: What steps have been taken. It seems to me it is of vital importance to the nation that no steps should be spared which would enable those young men to qualify for the forces. It is not good enough to sit back, wring our hands and say that there is a heavy percentage who cannot qualify, and that we can do nothing about it. The health of many of those young men can be improved, and such improvement would be greatly to the benefit not only of the forces but also of the young men and their families, and of the nation at large. I would ask the minister to give a more detailed explanation of what the government has in mind in this connection.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I quite agree with the hon. member for Vancouver South. The plans are just being formulated. I indicated that an interdepartmental committee was being set up, consisting of representatives of the Department of National Defence, the Department of Pensions and National Health, and the Department of National War Services.
With regard to the other question raised by the hon. member, these persons are not as yet entitled to any hospitalization or treatment. As he will appreciate, these men are still civilians who have not been turned over to the Department of National Defence. Therefore they are not yet soldiers. I assure my hon. friend that every effort will be made to study with the greatest possible care the plans necessary for the reconditioning of these men. I believe we shall be able to recondition quite a number, because a number of persons may be thrown into a category lower than that desirable for training, on account of some minor imperfection which could be remedied with comparatively little treatment. As is well known, the requirements for category A are quite severe.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: When the minister is formulating his plans, wrould it be possible to include not only the men who come under the war service regulations but also the men who, although they do not come within the regulations, would be anxious to join the active service forces. I know a number of young men who have tried to join active service units, but who have been rejected as category E. For instance, some may require operations for hernia. In some instances the parents have been able to pay for operations, and the young men affected have gone overseas. In other instances young men in the same district remain in category E because they could not afford those operations. They may not come within the large group who would receive the reconditioning services outlined by the minister, but I believe they would have a claim to such reconditioning, even more than the men called under the regulations. When the minister is formulating his plans, could this point not be kept in mind?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Is my hon. friend thinking of persons who have applied for enlistment but have been rejected?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Yes.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: We would be glad to give consideration to that suggestion.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I know there are a large number.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, I have a soft spot for the minister, because he has to take charge of all the matters his colleagues try to get rid of. That is a very hard problem for him, and I take this opportunity to pay him a well-deserved tribute by saying that he is equal to the occasion, and by pointing out that he is assisted in his work by two excellent deputy ministers, Mr. Justice Davis and Major-General LaFleche.
Very often young men try to enlist when they are unfit. They may be passed as class A by the local board and by the army medical board in the district. I see many people in my constituency, and I took the trouble to question some of these boys who had been placed in category A. To my great surprise I learned that men who had been placed in category A by two boards were suffering from such disabilities as ruptures, internal goitres and chronic appendicitis. This matter was referred to the board which found that these men should be in category E on account of disabilities which they possessed when they had their first examination.

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This shows two things. First, it shows that many French-Canadians are willing to enlist even though they are not physically fit and, second, it shows that the doctors are not always as careful as they should be. Apparently the local board relies upon the army board, while the army board thinks the local doctors, who know the family history from the medical point of view, are well informed. The result is that no one pays any real attention, each relying upon the other. There has been considerable improvement in this connection and now more care is paid to the examination. I do not see why the dominion government should waste money in training soldiers who are physically unfit. We all regret that such a large proportion of our soldiers are below standard as far as health is concerned and it is to be hoped that there will be an improvement in the near future.
I have only one question to ask the minister. There is one thing upon which I should like to congratulate him, something that I mentioned yesterday afternoon. I refer to the regulation passed by his department providing that those engaged in agriculture and the operations of railways shall be considered as being in seasonal occupations. Many of us know the necessary work that is being done by these workers, and I am glad to note that in an amendment dated October 4 of this year these occupations are listed as seasonal and essential. This should have been done in the original regulation, but the correction has been rightly and aptly made by the minister.
According to subsection 1 of article 14, as redrafted, it is provided that no postponement order may be made for more than six months, but upon reviewing the occupation the
board may grant one or more extensions, provided that the board may cancel the order at any time for military reasons or for cause. If it is established to the satisfaction of the commission that a man is serving the state by doing agricultural work or working as a railroad man, will a postponement be granted for a further six months, at which time he can report to the commission or to the registrar? Also, if the conditions are not changed at the end of six months, is a renewal of the postponement order authorized by the new regulations?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I think the regulations
are quite clear in that regard. My answer will be in reply to the question asked by the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) and the hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough (Mr. White). No postponement can be for longer than six months, but when that six months period is over, another postponement may be granted. The jurisdiction of the board is not confined to the second postponement; the board may grant one or more extensions of the original postponement, but each postponement must be for a period of not longer than six months. In each case the board looks at the application from the point of view of the national interest and deals with each case upon its merits. It has complete jurisdiction in granting or refusing an application for a postponement order.


Mr. McGREGOR:: Will the minister place upon the record the number of postponements granted in the different divisions?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I can do that, although
it is quite a lengthy table.

Summary of the Number of Postponements Requested as Against the Number Granted, with Percentage, for the
First Nine Military Training Periods
Seasonal employees
M.T.	Farming	Lumbering	Trapping	Fishing	Others	N	Wartime industries	Other rad. than wartime	All other reasons	periods	Req.	Gr'd	Req.	Gr'd	Req.	Gr'd	Req.	Gr'd	Req. Gr'd	Req.	Gr'd	Req.	Gr'd	Req.	Gr'd1	338	334	52	52	. . .	1	1	57	55	110	63	67	67	95	892	6,420	2,293	772	724	30	29	148	144	684	615	2,059	1,741	3,096	2,193	1,947	1,7793	5,040	1,728	1,626	1,373	9	9	72	72	562	455	1,328	942	153	126	1,065	1,0064	1,321	1,134	238	88	4	4	44	32	941	408	310	230	41	32	1,780	1,4295	1,255	1,023	25	19	25	4	29	20	309	255	232	155	57	44	555	4566	1,161	1,008	22	20	22	1	41	39	385	321	298	231	57	30	454	3017	822	710	26	22	. . .	. . .	37	33	275	212	321	267	60	34	541	3998	1,210	1,139	31	20	. . .	. . .	53	41	449	362	400	75	68	25	577	4449	1,619	971	61	46	632	332	24	19	74	70	228	210	68	32	628	449Totals	19,186	10,340	2,853	2,364	722	379	449	401	3,736 2,753	5,286	3,914	3,667	2,583	7,642	6,352Percentage	53-9%	82-8%	52-4%	89-3%	73-7%	74%	70%	83-1%	
a

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Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Could we have on Hansard the totals by administrative divisions?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I have the information by provinces, if that will meet the situation. This
is a statement showing the number of men whose military training has been postponed during the first ten months training period:
(November 8th, 1941)
Statement showing by provinces the number of men whose military training has been postponed during the first ten military training periods
Other	All Other
Seasonal and Essential Occupations	Ind. Univ. Reasons

*

n	than and Except
Lumber-	Fish-
Provinces	Farming	ing Trapping	ingOntario 	. 1,916	150	12	10Quebec 	. 5,192	1,711	347	77Nova Scotia . .	. 476	58	1	62New Brunswick	. 453	329	84P. Edward Island 155	4	4Manitoba ....	. 679	33	7	111Br. Columbia .	. 308	102	6	61Saskatchewan .	. 901	16	6	8Alberta 	. 1,236	4	1Total	. 11.316	2,407	[DOT]379	418
Wartime War- College Cons.
Others Industries time Students Objectors Totals
386	2,656	483	706	2,752	9,0712,184	2.730	1.623	491	449	14,804125	10	157	100	297	1,286100	5	78	135	234	1,4188	1	7	12	26	217234	2	27	117	533	1,74338	315	227	564	1,682	3,30334	8	113	94	1,180117	9	2	72	579	2,0203,226	5,736	2,604	2,310	6,646	35,042


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The minister said that each case discussed was considered by these boards' on its merits, and that the sole disposition of cases lay with the boards?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Under this new regulation, national war service regulation No. 14, there is no longer any appeal to the minister, and, as I understand it, the sole disposition depends now upon the board in question.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Quite right.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Could the minister elaborate that to the committee, and explain what is done to arrive at some degree of standardization among the different boards. May I point out, for instance, a glaring example which was reported in the press some time ago. In Manitoba certain hockey players made application for postponement because they wanted to go to the United States to play hockey. Their applications were rejected, but in one of the other provinces-Ontario, I believe-some hockey players applied- for and received their permission.
It seems to me that the former regulation was preferable. This is a tremendous responsibility to leave in the hands of what is, after all, a quasi-judicial body not directly responsible to this house. It is possible that, if the personnel of a board were not of the right type, a state of petty tyranny might exist in a province. A person has no appeal to the minister or
to any other body. If the men on the board are unsympathetic or have not the proper approach to the problem, a very difficult local situation might arise. At the other extreme, in another administrative area there might be a very lax board and consequently an unsatisfactory situation. To confer sole jurisdiction and the unfettered disposition of these cases upon what should be only an administrative board is to set up a series of boards which have no standardized system of interpretation, can deal with each case in their own way, and may deal with these cases entirely differently in different geographical sections of the dominion. I wondered what system the minister had for standardizing the work of the boards right across the country, or is each board to be a law to itself, applying these regulations as it sees fit to each case that comes before it?


Robert Henry McGregor: I think we should get one thing cleaned up at a time. We have asked for the numbers of applications and exemptions from each province. If the minister will put that information on the record, it will clear up that point.


An hon. MEMBER:: That has been done.


Robert Henry McGregor: No. He stated the number of exemptions in each province; he has not given the number of applications-


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The hon. member is quite correct.


Robert Henry McGregor: -and also the number of men called.

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Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I do not know to what extent hon. members want tremendous tabulations put on Hansard. I have no objection to putting on the record anything the committee wishes to have, but these tabulations are quite lengthy. What tables does the hon. member wish to have?


Robert Henry McGregor: We want to find out, for each of the different provinces, how many applications have been made for exemptions and how many applications have been granted.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I am sure that the hon. member is referring to applications for postponements.


Robert Henry McGregor: Yes, postponements.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: With the consent of the committee, I will put on Hansard tables giving all that information.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I have a statement from the minister with reference to the standardizing of the work of these different boards?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The question which the hon. member for Weyburn has raised might also be raised with regard to our courts of justice when they are trying questions of fact, because the human element comes in there. I would remind the hon. member that each one of these administrative boards consists of three persons, and is headed by a judge of a superior court or other court of the province. In addition, there are two other representatives, and I think I can properly say that they are responsible men in their communities. Also, a representative of the Department of National Defence, and a representative of the national labour supply council, have the right to be present at the sittings of the board, and each of them has the right to make representations to the board. I believe I can safely say that the board deals with these applications for postponement carefully and judicially; I might go even further and say, sympathetically.
The hon. member for Weyburn asked about some hockey players, and the leader of the opposition also made some reference to them. I think this subject has received in the sports columns of the newspapers a great deal more attention than it deserves. I was in Toronto when the first announcement was made of the decision made by Mr. Justice Adamson, of administrative division J, who had had a number of young men appear before him to ask for his authority to leave Canada so that they might play professional hockey in the

United States. He rejected those applications. I was asked what my opinion of the matter was. and I expressed the opinion generally-I hold it yet-that the needs of the war supersede those of sport. I was also asked what would be the effect of that decision. As I have pointed out, in respect of these particular matters the chairman of each board has jurisdiction, and he may deal with the case in accordance with his views on the subject. The section which is involved in these applications by hockey players is section 4, subsection 2. I should like to put it on the record so that there may be the fullest understanding of this situation. It reads:
No male British subject who is liable to be called out for military training under the next preceding subsection shall, after bis age class has been called out by proclamation, as provided by subsection 1 of section 5 of these regulations, leave Canada for any reason whatsoever, unless and until he has been so authorized in writing by the chairman of the board to whose jurisdiction such man is subject.
Therefore anyone who is under twenty-one years of age does not have to go to the chairman of the board for necessary authorization in writing, nor does anyone who is over twenty-four, so that the chairman of the board deals only with applications coming from young men who are in the age groups that have been called up by proclamation, that is to say, young men of the 21, 22, 23 and 24 age classes.
The respective chairmen of the boards have dealt with this subject in a manner that is not altogether uniform, but I should point out that it is the chairman of the board who de'als with these applications for written authority to leave the country. It may be of interest to know, in view of the fact that so much publicity has been given to this matter in the sports pages of the newspapers, that altogether there are sixty hockey players who have been granted permission to leave Canada by the chairmen of the divisional boards: seven from adminstra-tive division A, London; twenty-two from administrative division B, Toronto; six from administrative division C, Kingston; four from administrative division D, Port Arthur; five from administrative division E, Montreal; one from administrative division F, Quebec; none from administrative division G, Halifax; one from administrative division H, Saint John; none from administrative division I, Charlottetown; none from administrative division J, Winnipeg; none from administrative division K, Vancouver; one from administrative division M, Regina; thirteen from administrative division N, Edmonton. I understand that the chairmen, in granting this written authority, to leave Canada in order to play hockey.

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to the young men who are going over to play in the United States, receive assurances from them that they will be immediately available if they are called. There is the situation.
Recently there was a little press item about fourteen hockey pros leaving from Winnipeg, and some concern was expressed as to how they could do so in view of the fact that the chairman of the board at Winnipeg had granted no written authority. On checking that up, I find that ten of the fourteen men were either under twenty-one or over twenty-four and that one was marked "category E." I have not the full particulars with regard to the other three, but the chances are that they got their written authority from some other chairman.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The minister's statement fully substantiates the point I made, namely, the total lack of uniformity.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I do not know how one could get uniformity on questions of fact from administrative boards any more than one could get uniformity on questions of fact from courts of law. We are seeking as best we can to get uniformity in the matter of dealing with all those persons whose cases are considered by the board as individual persons, each person having his own case before the board. We have had conferences here at Ottawa by the chairmen of the boards, and that sort of thing has been helpful. I do not recall when we had the latest conference, but it was before I took charge of the department, and I think it might be useful to have another conference for the purpose of bringing about further uniformity of administration. I believe, however, I can say to the hon. member for Weyburn that where the human factor comes in, I do not see how one can eliminate differences altogether any more than one can in a court of law or in cases before juries. One jury might convict a man whereas another jury might acquit him, and they are trying questions of fact .and dealing with individual cases.	I can say this, however, that the
boards have sought to deal with these applications for postponement in a careful, judicial and sympathetic manner, and that, by and large, the regulations, from that point of view, have worked fairly satisfactorily.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I do not want to find fault with the regulations, but I do suggest two things. While it may not be possible to have complete uniformity, it is possible to have a greater measure of uniformity, because it is not altogether a fact-finding matter. As far as the public are concerned, here were men who had identical cases to 14873-270J
present. The minister himself has said that in Winnipeg men are rejected, whereas in London or Toronto men are given permission to proceed across the line. The difference was not in fact; it was in the interpretation given by the chairmen of the boards. It seems to me that if we want to have the public regard this as fair administration, we shall have to have a greater degree of uniformity; otherwise a man will feel that someone else living in another province with a different personnel on the board will get different treatment from what he gets in his particular district. The second suggestion I make is this. I still think the first regulation which allowed some court of appeal-either the minister or some official here-would obviate much of the feeling of uneasiness which has arisen in consequence of these different decisions that are handed down by the respective boards in identical cases.


Mr. McNEVIN:: If I understood the hon. member for Temiseouata correctly, he said that agriculture was included with lumbering as a seasonal occupation. Is that the view of the department?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Farming is dealt with under section 14 of the regulations, the heading of which is "seasonal and essential occupations." Therefore I think the interpretation placed on the matter by the hon. member for Temiseouata is reasonably sound, because farming is also named in the operative part along with a number of other occupations also of a seasonal and essential nature. I put the whole section on the record when I was before the committee previously.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: In that connection I would point out that there may be sections of Canada in which agriculture could be properly classified as a seasonal occupation. Nevertheless there are wide areas where the word "essential" would be the proper description, because in large areas in Ontario, due to the care and feeding of live stock, the winter season is practically as busy on the average farm as the summer season.
I have a great deal of sympathy for the members of these boards which have had thrown upon them the responsibility of making the selection of those to take this military training. I think in some respects the considerations that have entered greatly into these decisions would be where dairy farms and farms where there is a heavy hog production may properly be classified as essential to our war effort. But I would point out that the beef cattle areas represent an equally important item of production as far as our war

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effort' is concerned, because wherever we have had a curtailment of consumption of pork products, beef is used to a greater extent as a substitute than any other commodity. Special attention should be given to that point.
Beef is important from another point of view. It is a staple commodity that enters into the diet of our army and our civilian population. Then, if we happen to have any surplus, there is ample provision for export to the United States, thus providing the much needed United States dollars to purchase vital commodities for the building up of our mechanized forces. Therefore the production of beef should be on a par with districts producing pork products and dairy products.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: By this section the occupation of farming is put in exactly the same position as any occupation that is essential to the prosecution of the war.


Mr. FAIR:: I should not like to have this committee think that in provinces other than Ontario live stock can be grown without having help to feed it. Ontario is not the only province in Canada. While in Alberta we have very bright sunshine, we still have to do a great deal of work to raise that vastly increased crop of hogs that we have there at the present time. While in Alberta we raise four-legged hogs, I am sorry to say that in some of the provinces they raise the twolegged type.


Mr. HANSELL:: A little while ago we were discussing the matter of men being rejected on account of being physically unfit. I notice on page 4100 of Hansard the minister is reported as saying:
Out of a total of 217,588 men examined up to October 2, 1941, only about 56 per cent were placed in category A, the only category accepted for training at the present time by the Department of National Defence. This is a serious situation, and the plans for the reconditioning of these men who have been '*rjected are under consideration.
For over 50 per cent of our young men in the prime of life to be physically unfit is indeed an alarming state of affairs. I do not think the minister would tell us this 50 per cent were physically unfit by reason of having ruptures, or appendicitis, or something of that kind. The old adage that "an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure" still holds good. I am wondering whether something cannot be done to prevent the teen age boys who are coming along and who, if the war lasts two or three years more, will perhaps be called into service, from being also found physically unfit.

The minister said that plans for reconditioning these young men are under consideration.
I would implore the minister not to use the term "reconditioning".


An hon. MEMBER:: It sounds like an old car.


Ernest George Hansell: Yes; men are not made of tin.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Will the hon. member
suggest a better term?


Ernest George Hansell: We talk of reconditioning machinery after it has been used. The term might be in order if we could say that these young men are physically unfit because they have been giving such strenuous service to the building up of Canada. I think, however,
I am right when I suggest that the reason why 50 per cent of our young men cannot pass the physical tests when they are called up for training is that for ten long years we have gone through a state of poverty and destitution which was deliberately imposed upon the country. We may say that times are better now, that people are earning more money, but can we say that is going to continue? I should like to ask the minister if he agrees with my diagnosis, that it is on account of the depression of recent years that these young men are not physically fit. I think the subject of malnutrition in these past years is worthy of attention.
I do not want to be jumping up and down, so, while I am on my feet, might I refer to another matter? The minister can keep in mind the question I have asked him so that he can answer later. The subject of broadcasting was brought up some little time ago, , and some discussion took place. On August 20 of this year I was very much alarmed to discover, in a newspaper which I picked up, that in a radio broadcast over the national network of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation a private member of this house had read a secret document that was in the hands of the intelligence service of this country. I say I was seriously shocked to read that in the newspaper, because I happened to be a member of the committee on the defence of Canada regulations before which that document was read. It was not shown to the members of the committee, which met in camera; it was read by an officer of the Department of Justice, and we did not even see it. Due to the fact that those sittings were held in camera I felt, as I believe other members of the committee felt, in duty bound to keep secret such matters as I have just mentioned. The committee concluded its work;' we went to our respective homes, and

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then along comes a private member of parliament-who was also a member of that committee-who has been given access to these secret documents of state, who can take them out of the files and read them in a radio speech over a national hook-up.
I am not seriously complaining because the document was read. What I am complaining about is the fact that this was a secret document, read to a committee sitting in camera, and the members of that committee felt in duty bound to keep everything of that kind confidential. Then a private member is given access to it. I should like the minister to tell me by what authority this private member was given permission to obtain this document and read it over the radio. There is another question: if a private member of another party in this house should ask for the same privilege, would that request be granted? I think I have made myself clear. I protest against that sort of thing, and as a member of that committee I think I have a right to do so.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: With regard to the second matter mentioned by the hon. member for Macleod, I should be glad if he would give me the particulars of what he has referred to, and I shall be glad to look into the matter.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the minister not know about it?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: No, I do not.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We all heard the broadcast.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I did not hear it, and I do not know to what the hon. member refers.


Ernest George Hansell: I can give the minister the particulars now. I did not want to embarrass any hon. member, but I might read part of this newspaper article:
Ernest Bertrand, Liberal member of parliament for Montreal Laurier, read in a broadcast address to-night a document which he said contained orders from an enemy government to its agents in Canada, and revealed with what "thoroughness and detail the secret plotting" was contrived.
Later, the news dispatch says:
. . . Mr. Bertrand said in his address, in which he discussed the defence of Canada regulatiions over the national network of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
Dated 1937, it was addressed to an agent working in a large Canadian city, said Mr. Bertrand, adding that this was the first time it had been made public.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I am not aware of the facts with regard to the broadcast and could not possibly reply to this question at the moment.
The first question asked by my hon. friend had reference to the very large number of persons who were rejected when they presented themselves for medical examination after being called up. While I appreciate that the situation is a very serious one, I should not like to go so far as to say that it is the result of the depression years. Those may have had their effect on some of these men, but I should like to point out that the standards set by the Department of National Defence are very high.
I should point out also that some of the ailments on account of which men were placed in categories lower than A were slight in themselves, but sufficient to exclude these men from the highest category, without in any way affecting their ordinary health. I wonder how many members of this house could get into category A.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We are not twenty-one year olds.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Even so, men may not be in category A and yet be in excellent health to all intents and purposes, without being able to undergo the very severe strains that must be undergone by soldiers. When I point out these things, of course I am not minimizing the grave nature of the problem.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: What fee is paid to civilian doctors for these preliminary examinations? I undertsand that at the outset the fee was $1.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: If that fee is still paid, it seems to me that a very thorough examination cannot be expected for it. Have the doctors across Canada agreed to do this work for this small fee as part of their contribution to the war effort?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Are they really conducting a $5 examination and thus making a contribution of $4 to the cause, or is only a superficial examination made? Perhaps the minister would enlarge upon the nature of the examination.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I think we can safely say that in a great many cases the doctors are doing this work as a contribution to the national effort. The fee they receive is $1 per examination, which is a great deal less than one would have to pay ordinarily for an examination of this kind. I believe they give a fair physical examination.


John George Diefenbaker: In the discussion
which took place a short time ago with reference to the chairmen of the various boards
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having authority to permit persons to go to the United States, mention was made of the situation with regard to hockey players. We have no information as to the number of people in Canada between the ages of twenty-one and twenty-four who obtained authority to go to the United States during the past year. I would ask the minister to give that information. In addition, as I understand the situation, on October 7 the regulations dealing with the granting of postponements were altered. Up until that date a postponement, whether granted or refused by the provincial board, was subject to a form of appeal to the minister. That was the condition prior to October 7.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I am not so sure about
that.


John George Diefenbaker: That is my interpretation of the remarks of the minister as
reported at page 4099 of Hansard, when he referred to section 14.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: No; that had nothing to do with the matter of appeals.


John George Diefenbaker: That had to do with the question of postponement?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes, but it had nothing
to do with the subject of appeals.


John George Diefenbaker: The minister stated on that occasion, as I summarize his words, that an alteration was made in the regulation on that date, and that since that time the decision of the provincial board has been final. Is -that not correct?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I was about to read the
old regulation as it stood and, if I recall what I said the other night, it was that under the old regulation certain directions from the minister were contemplated. I had not in mind the subject of any appeal from the boards. I do not think there was any appeal from the boards, even prior to the new section.


John George Diefenbaker: Then, are there any cases where the minister or his predecessor directed any of the provincial boards to alter decisions which any or all of those provincial boards had made?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Not that I am aware of.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I direct the minister's attention to a somewhat wider aspect of this question of man-power. He will recall that in the course of the remarks I made in the house a week ago to-day I referred to the question of Canada's potential man-power capacity, and to the national registration of August, 1940. I believe I have served sufficient notice, and I
[Mr. Diefenbaker.l
should now like to have a specific statement of Canada's potential man-power capacity as disclosed by the national registration, not only for the armed services but for other classes of service as well. If the minister is not in a position to make the statement tonight, perhaps he would be good enough to make it to-morrow.
Does he agree with the statement made by his predecessor, as reported by the press, that Canada can muster a million men for the armed forces, and still attain the necessary production in farm and factory? I do not know whether or not that is possible, but I hope it is. There may have been a little bit of optimism on the part of the minister's predecessor, but I have no doubt that he made the statement in good faith, believing in the truth of it, because one would not suggest anything else from the present Minister of Agriculture.


James Garfield Gardiner: The statement is not word for word what I said. I read it, of course, and I have it in writing.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The words I have used may not be the exact words used by the minister, but they are taken from the lead of the Canadian Press, and if they are in error, the Minister will correct them. I believe, however, that I have given the substance of what he has said. That is what the public understood him to say. I am not disagreeing with him; I am asking him for information.
The Canadian Press dispatch dated at Ottawa, September 13, states:
Canada can muster 1,000,000 men for the armed forces and still attain the necessary production in farm and factory, agriculture minister J. G. Gardiner said last night in a reconsecration week speech on the national network of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
Then he goes on to say:
If 1.000.000 men were called to arms, he said, there would still be 7,000,000 persons over sixteen years of age left and these properly organized and determined to stand behind the armed forces can operate all our farms, our factories and places of business in a manner which will give us the production required.


James Garfield Gardiner: The last sentence is what I said.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not rise to attack that statement. It may have been a slight exaggeration, but I should think it was at all events within shooting distance of being correct. I should hope it would be. This country paid a good many hundreds of thousands of dollars for the national registration, and it would have cost a great deal more had it not been for the voluntary

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services of a large number of citizens, who worked free of charge in order to keep down expense. I would ask the minister to give a specific statement of Canada's potential manpower capacity, as disclosed by that registration.
In that statement I should like to have the total number of men of military age in Canada, between the ages of twenty-one and forty-five. I take those ages, because they are the ones liable to call under the mobilization act. If possible, I should like to have the statement broken down broadly into the various occupations of the persons of military age.
I have one other request to make. From time to time proclamations have gone out calling the classes of 21 years, 22 years, 23 years and 24 years. How many are there in each category of those four ages? I want that information so as to have a broad picture of the potential man-power of Canada. I ask for the information, not to test the statement of the Minister of Agriculture, but to learn the true picture with relation to man-power.
I do not believe many people in Canada really know about it. There are very few who know that one of the purposes of national registration was to let us know what the exact situation was. Unless we can get those figures and have them properly tabulated in some intelligent form, then there was not much use of national registration.
So far as I recall, up to a certain time the only use of the national registration was a basis upon which to issue a proclamation for the call of the 21-year-old and following classes. The registration cards, or applications-whatever their proper designation was-were segregated so that they could be handled quickly. On the basis of that registration the first call for training was sent out. Have I made myself sufficiently clear with respect to the information desired? If the minister has not the information to-night, I would be content to have it at three o'clock to-morrow.


Frederick Clayton Casselman: When the minister is giving the numbers in the 21-, 22-, 23- and 24-year-old classes, would he also give the number in each of those classes who have been notified to report for examination?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes. A number of questions requiring considerable break-down have been asked.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunburv):: That
information must be tabulated now; it was secured fifteen months ago.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I have a good deal of the information for my hon. friend. Before answering him, however, may I reply to the
hon. member for Lake Centre. The figures for the persons who have been authorized in writing by the various chairmen to leave Canada will have to be obtained from the chairmen. I shall be glad to obtain that information from them because I do not have it in tabulated form at the present time. That is the function the chairman exercises. When a man leaves the country he must have a passport, and a passport is not issued unless there is the necessary authorization in writing.


John George Diefenbaker: How often do the chairmen furnish the minister with information as to the number that have been granted?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I do not know that we have asked the chairmen to give us any regular break-down with regard to the different kinds of requests, but I shall be glad to obtain that information.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They have to have passports, but what about _ these woods workers who did not have to' have passports?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I think that situation was explained by the Prime Minister.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Special
provision was made for them.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Were these 4,000 or 5,000 lumbermen exempted by the board before they went across?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: If the passport regulations were waived, it is quite likely that a considerable number went across under the general waiver. I should not be a bit surprised if some of them were within the age group of twenty-one to twenty-four years.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No doubt.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: No doubt about that. With regard to the number of men in each class actually called up; I shall have to get this detailed information from the divisions. As far as I recollect, we do not have the break-down in that detailed form.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We know how many men there were twenty-one years of age as of July 1, 1941.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I shall get that information as rapidly as possible.


John George Diefenbaker: Do I understand
the minister to say that men subject to call are allowed to leave the country as the result of an authorization given by the chairmen of the provincial boards and that he has no record of them?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The records are all there
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John George Diefenbaker: I do not know what the minister means by "all there."


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The information can all
be obtained.


John George Diefenbaker: Does the minister
not have those records in Ottawa?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I should not like to say
"yes" or "no" to that, but I do know that the information can be obtained. That is the function of the chairman, not the function of the board as such, and for the time being it really does not touch the subject of the calling up of these men because the quotas have all been filled. Of course it does touch the question in a way because these men are subject to call, but the chairman of the board, who is a judge in each ease, looks into the facts. All these men must have the necessary forms from the foreign exchange control board. I do not think there has been any wastage or leakage of manpower as a result of these operations. I can get from the chairmen of the boards information as to the total number of authorizations which have been given. I do not think we have that information at present available in the department.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the
minister not think the giving of these authorizations constitutes a preference which the ordinary man would not get?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Not at all. The judge
considers each of these cases upon its merits. In many cases the authorization is given to a man who of necessity must cross the border for some reason or another, on account of sickness, for business reasons or for a multitude of other reasons. He cannot obtain a passport without having a written authorization.


Jean-François Pouliot: When one is not speaking in his native language he is under a rather severe handicap, and I should like to say a word or two about what I said this afternoon concerning the young soldiers who made a commotion -when the Prime Minister visited them in England. I used the words "young fools" in the sense of gaminerie. I could not find an exact translation of this word as we would use it in ordinary conversation. The nearest is boisterous or turbulent. I want to make this explanation in order to keep the record clear.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The minister in charge explained that one of the objectives of the national registration which was taken last year was to make it possible for people who were unemployed in one part of Canada to move to other areas where employment might be available. There are a great many men in the prairie provinces who were machinists or

mechanics before they took up farming. These men now find that they are producing what is often described as a drug on the market; they are producing wheat, which is apparently not needed at the present time. Many of these men are anxious to make some other contribution in the way of producing necessary commodities. So far, I have not met one who has been encouraged to move from western Canada to eastern Canada to find employment in industry. On the contrary, I know of men who are well qualified and who have written many letters in the hope of finding employment, but they have received no encouragement.
I should like the minister to explain just what use has been made of the national registration which was taken last year. Are the files kept up to date? Has the government information as to the number of toolmakers who are living in the prairie provinces and whose services could be used in eastern Canada?


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister was to give me some information.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Questions have been coming from all quarters. Before I deal with the questions put by the leader of the opposition, I should like to put on Hansard a table showing comparisons between the administrative divisions and the military districts, along with the table I referred to when that question arose. The table is as follows:
Administrative	Military
divisions	districts
A 		
B 		
C 		
?}		
E 		
F 		
S		
H 		
K 		
M		
N 		
I should like to deal in a general way with what has taken place with regard to the national registration.
I brought to the attention of hon. members the other evening, when I first spoke to the committee, a certain publication entitled "Specialized Occupations, National Registration, 1940", issued by the Department of National War Services and the Dominion Bureau of Statistics. All or practically all of the information requested by the hon. member for Mackenzie is contained in this particular book. Last year there was given by my predecessor a fairly full description of the manner in which the national registration had proceeded across Canada. When the cards came

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in to the Department of National War Services they came in by tons. The work of tabulating, compiling and getting the necessary statistical information together was assigned to the bureau of statistics. The bureau has been working on that, and this spring, I believe, was responsible for the publication of this book which I have mentioned. Perhaps the best thing I can do is to read the preface, which is brief, and then indicate the kind of information which is found in this book. The preface, written by the dominion statistician, Doctor R. H. Coats, is, in part, as follows:
The national registration was conceived and carried out primarily as a register of the military and labour potential of Canada. In accordance with this conception, the main tasks assigned to the dominion bureau of statistics, in addition to .the revision and permanent filing of the registration cards as received from deputy registrars, have been:
1.	The selection of single males of military age.
2.	The listing of persons in some 1,250 specialized occupations.
3.	The listing of persons with training in agriculture.
4.	The selection of certain classes of aliens, and
5.	The compilation of a general conspectus of the ages, birthplace, nationality, education, etc., of the Canadian adult population.
The first of these involved the transfer of some 1,050,000 cards for the use of the Department of National Defence.
These are cards that came back to our department and are available to be sent out to the various administrative divisions, so that when we issue a proclamation calling out a particular age class or a series of age classes, all of the cards relating to those persons are sent to the administrative divisions and are there in the custody of the registrar.
The second and third and fourth were made by the construction of lists giving the addresses and various personal and occupational information for about 2.200,000 names. These have been placed at the disposal of .the departments and others requiring such information.
The first four objectives have now been achieved. In addition, preliminary tabulations concerning the fifth part, which was not undertaken until the listing process above-mentioned was completed, have now been published in bulletin form.
In this publication to which I have made reference there is an introduction which explains the set-up of the various tables and deals with this subject of 1,250 specialized occupations. The persons who are in those specialized occupations totalled about 1,800,000 across Canada. There are a number of tables in this publication which will give a good deal of the information asked by the leader of the opposition and the hon. member for Mackenzie.
I think I may also say that the subject of man-power generally is being carefully studied.
Another publication to which I made reference is entitled "Statistics Relating to Labour Supply under War Conditions." That was issued by the social analysis branch of the dominion bureau of statistics.
Since registration took place, there has been a continuing registration of all persons who have reached the age of sixteen, who are required to register as soon as they do reach that age. Then, all changes of address and of matrimonial status are recorded. The system of keeping track of these cards and of this information is such that, I think I can say to the committee that if I were asked to locate a certain man or woman who had registered, it could be done, by the system which they have there, in just a few minutes. The records are in excellent shape.
With regard to the question of the hon. member for Mackenzie as to the moving of men from one district to another, thus far that has not -taken place under government direction except in an indirect way. Nor does it take place in the old country, where they have a system which enables them to send men to one industry, or away from one industry to another. Although the power of compulsion is there, they have not exercised it. They have directed labour, and they have done that largely through the operations of the employment offices. As hon. members will recall, we did not have dominion government employment offices set up until recently, and we are of opinion that, if any movement of labour is required from one area to another to meet the needs of industry in any locality, the establishment of the new employment offices will be very helpful to us in directing that flow of labour from one place to another.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I followed the minister closely, and I am aware that there is a great deal of valuable material available, but I do not think members of parliament have received this' report which he mentioned. If that is so, then I wonder how many firms in industry are making any use of the information which has been compiled. I might remind the committee that so far we have had practically no expenditures for capital equipment in connection with the providing of -any war industries in western Canada-certainly, in the province of Saskatchewan. I know that a great many people have come to the east from Saskatchewan, but men who wait for encouragement or for advice as to the possibility of getting employment should they come east, simply never come. I realize that there are many difficulties, but it seems to me that so far nothing has been done except to discourage people from coming. The hon. member for

[DOT]4290
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Weyburn has handed me a clipping from a western paper dated October 23, a dispatch from Windsor by the Canadian Press which reads:
Stay west, young man, says mayor. Windsor chief magistrate warns prairie folk to keep away. No work available. Bad advice being given by social service agencies.
Canadian Press. Windsor, Ont., Oct. 23- Premiers of the three prairie provinces will be asked to -warn residents of their provinces that there is no employment available here, Mayor Arthur J. Reaume said Wednesday following receipt of reports from industries here that large numbers of men from western Canada were seeking jobs. Forty-five in one day.
Mayor Reaume said 45 Saskatchewan men appeared at one large plant seeking work Tuesday. Industries throughout the city have reported four and five men from the prairie provinces have appeared at their employment offices daily during the past week and had to be turned away, the mayor said.
"I am told that they said they were advised by social service agencies in Saskatchewan and the other prairie provinces that there were jobs to be had here," Mayor Reaume said. ''This is not the case and it is time the people of the prairie provinces were warned that they were wasting their money by coming to Windsor looking for work . . ."
Letters will be sent to the mayors in the leading cities of the three provinces as well as to the premiers, the mayor added.
I understand that letters covering the same information have been sent to the municipalities in western Canada. I suggest it is time now that some machinery be made available so that men who are trained or who are willing to be trained may have an opportunity to make some contribution apart from that which they are making in producing wheat or by being on relief. In large areas in the west there have been crop failures and there are many men who will have to depend upon the government for assistance. We should be making use of the labour power that is available. I had expected that the minister would have something more hopeful to say in connection with the employment of men who are well trained and who could make a contribution in industry.


George Stanley White: I have one or two questions to' ask the minister. A short time ago when he was giving a summary of the various exemptions that had been granted, he classed them under farming, lumbering, fishing, and so on, and I understood him to say that under the head of "miscellaneous" there were some 7,000 or 8.000. May I ask under which class university students are included? In putting that record on Hansard, could he indicate the number of university students who have been granted exemptions? Would he also give the committee a brief statement indicating what constitutes a university

student? Does it mean a man who is attending university so many hours each day, or does it mean that he may be taking one or two lectures a week, or would it include any man who is taking a course by correspondence? Would such a man be classed as a university student and be given exemption? Would the minister care to express an opinion as to whether exemptions such as these are class legislation?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The number of postponements in connection with university and college students, requested for the first three periods, is 971; applications granted, 892. Then, for the remaining periods, four to nine, the postponements requested number 1,371 and those granted, 1,236. Section 17 of the regulations contains the following subsection, 10:
The board may grant a postponement order to a student who is registered at a Canadian university or college to follow a course leading to a degree or diploma and who has been accepted by the university or college authorities.
There are a number of other regulations regarding students, but I do not consider that as preferred treatment. I think it is desirable that bona fide students should be entitled to have postponement of military training during the terms of their college yeaTS. Many of them belong to other compulsory military training units in their universities or in the Canadian officers training corps, and I do not think any preferential treatment is given to these persons.


George Stanley White: I understand that in the 21-year-old class, owing to lack of accommodation, between 40 and 60 per cent of the young men available have been called. If that is correct, will the minister state clearly to the committee how the registrars make the selection and who would be picked in the 40 or 60 per cent of the young men called.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: That was the question which the leader of the opposition put to me and which I have not yet had an opportunity of answering. I should be glad to try to answer it. The Department of National War Services receives a requisition each month from the Department of National Defence indicating the number of persons whom the Department of National Defence requires for the next training period. That is broken up by the Department of National Defence into the number who are required from each administrative division. The registrar of the administrative division gets these instructions, and his duties are to distribute the number of notices to the various parts of his division, as fairly and equitably as he can. He proceeds in this way. He starts first of all with the lowest

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age group. He takes the 21-year class and, going still further, he takes first of all the persons who were born earliest in that particular year.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It goes by seniority.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Or juniority, if I may say so. In addition to that, an attempt is made to work out an equitable distribution between persons who have never been called up for any period of training and persons who either did their thirty-day training and are called again or persons who had become twenty-one previously and whose applications for postponement were granted. In that way an effort is made to place the men who are subject to call as equitably as possible over the whole administrative division over which the registrar has jurisdiction. It is done on the basis of age groups and working out an equitable division between the new twenty-ones and the old twenty-ones. The system is not perfect, but an effort is made to work it out.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Under that system no one should escape being called?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: No.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Everybody in the 21-year-old class so far has been called?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I do not think so. I do not think we have exhausted all the twenty-ones even yet. But I do not think there is any likelihood of any escaping being called, because the cards are all there in the administrative divisions.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: This point of the call brings me to something on which I desire to make an observation and to ask the minister whether he thinks anything can be done about it; that is the practice of calling the twenty-one year olds, the twenty-twos, and I understand the proclamation now includes those up to twenty-four, but only the twenty-ones and the twenty-twos have been called up.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: They are all subject to the proclamation.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: I would suggest to the government through the minister that while the idea of calling them by age groups one year at a time beginning with the twenty-one year group was perhaps valid when we conceived the idea of thirty-day training, so that the matter would go on progressively and everyone between the ages of twenty-one and forty-five who was eligible would ultimately get training, yet that practice lost its validity, I think, when we switched to what is virtually training for the duration.
I have some recollections of what happened to the generation of boys of that age in the last war, and I am fearful that if we proceed in this way we are again going to denude the country of the young men of a generation. It is simple to say that taking them for a period of training for the defence of Canada -and for the moment Canada is not in immediate danger of attack-causes less disruption to the general life and industry of the country. But I do not think that is sound either from the point of view of the army or, what -is perhaps more important at the moment, from the point of view of the country now or in the time to come.
I would suggest that the minister consider the idea of turning the list upside down; at any rate, if they will not go to the top, that they push up men from, say twenty-seven, twenty-eight, twenty-nine to thirty-five or thirty-seven, even up to forty if not forty-five, and begin to take in not only single men but married men, taking at the beginning perhaps only married men with no families or with small families. When I think of the days when this thing will be over, I am sure that we are making a mistake in not dividing the responsibility over a wider group. I am perhaps selfish also in my thought that we should go into these higher brackets. If there is any group of men in Canada to-day who are "dodging the column"-it is not my duty to say at this time and place that there are- it is the men who were just too young for the last war and who to-day are comfortably employed, perhaps have homes partly paid for. small families, men who. as a rule, are in a fairly good income group and, in most instances, doing useful service. With a good conscience and the best will in the world thousands of them have hesitated to volunteer and put off on the shoulders of their wives and families the financial responsibilities that they have assumed. They are perhaps waiting until the day comes when they will be urgently required and these things will not matter. I think we might help some of these men to make a decision by expanding instead of restricting the groups called up under this proclamation. I think we should distribute the call more fairly across the face of the country and across the age groups.
As far as I am personally concerned I regard as of primary value in this training programme the fact that it does bring to the active service of the country a class of men who are highly desirable, in most instances, for active military service wherever they may be sent. I am of opinion that the sense of responsibility engendered in those older people would be of great value. I do not wish to suggest that any lack
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of responsibility is felt by the younger groups, because I say quite frankly that very many of the men who passed through my hands in the last two and a half months have been nearer eighteen than twenty-one. We do not ask for a birth certificate. I am not in the recruiting business anyway, but I see them shortly after they are in. We can now take a man in at eighteen; he likes to be a man at eighteen, and most of them are manly men, but in my opinion the distribution is not fair, neither is it wise, nor does it get the result for which, as far as I am concerned, we are looking.
No doubt the minister will say that the number called is the responsibility of the Minister of National Defence, and his job is to get them when they are wanted. I hope, however, the minister will not be satisfied merely to do his full duty, but will bring to bear whatever weight he can on the Department of National Defence to emphasize the necessity of getting, not a lesser number into training, but more.
If you come to the ultimate position and the Department of National Defence answer that they do not know what to do with those who do not become absorbed into the active service forces after they are trained, perhaps we are not too proud to take a leaf out of Hitler's book. We are told that he has a force of over half a million who, when he gets into a tight spot, he calls from industrial pursuits and puts into uniform. I am told that there are groups who have been so called out two or three times, and later returned to duty in industry; if it is only a story, there is the germ of an idea in it.
The training of men for this war cannot be left until three months before they are needed. I do not believe it is possible to train a soldier for the technical warfare of to-day in less than nine months and give him a Chinaman's chance for life. If we continue to carry on for a time without casualties as we have done so far, if the war does not break into an active campaign, perhaps by adding to the numbers in training we might train men in relays and reabsorb some into industry. In any event, however, it seems to me that we are not taking the full opportunity to use this service.
I am tempted-but I shall not yield to the temptation-to enlarge further on the question of general training in connection with the active service army, but I again urge on the minister that with which I started, namely, that the country be not denuded of the 20-, 21-and 22-year-olds, without taking a fair mixture of those in the higher ages, and I suggest that the government seriously consider the policy of taking some married men.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I listened
to the hon. member expounding his theoiy of calling up men. I do not know whether he has had to do with the training or simply the calling up of the men. But as one who has had something to do with the training of men, I must say that the idea of calling up men of the ages of thirty-seven to forty-five, with the strenuous training they have to go through, is absolutely out of the question. I have had a number of men, even in their early thirties, who could not stand the training that is required. We all know that this is a young man's war. I think we all agree that it is not a good thing for the country to have our young men spending the best years of their life in the army, but in a situation like this it has to be done; no one else can take their places. Men who are forty-five or forty-two or thirty-seven years of age cannot take the places of young men of nineteen, twenty or twenty-one in a war of this kind. It is not an old man's war; it is not a war of middle-aged men. Of course, as a last resort, I suppose men in the older brackets could be called up later on; I presume that is why the age limits were fixed at twenty-one to forty-five. These men might be called up for home defence, or something like that; but while my hon. friend's idea is very good in theory, I am sure it would never work out in practice.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: I do not think I am discussing an abstract theory, but I am not going to engage in a contest. I did not suggest, however, that we should turn the list upside down and take all the men from the top instead of from the bottom. I do know that there are thousands of jobs, even in this army, which can be filled by old men of thirty-seven years of age. I would not put them in the mechanized forces, and I could not get them into the branch headed by the air minister, but there is a place for them. My thought is that we are not beginning to utilize their services but are robbing the other age groups. I have some knowledge of what people in their thirties can stand; I know better than to urge that they should be placed in competition with young men of nineteen, twenty and twenty-one years of age, but even in a young army I believe there should be a little adjustment of the scale. Let us not shift the burden quite so heavily to the shoulders of the boys; let us not only give the others a chance but see to it that they take that chance.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I am glad to hear this
exchange of views between the hon. member for Winnipeg South and the hon. member

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for Royal. I believe the general view was that it would be preferable to call out the younger men because this would cause the least dislocation in the economy of the nation; but following this interesting exchange of conflicting opinions I should like to give the matter careful consideration. Would the hon. member for Royal mention the ages up to which he believes the proclamation might be extended, if that should be thought wise? Do I understand his view to be that young men and older men might be mixed in the calling up?


Alfred Johnson Brooks: As the minister knows, there is a certain syllabus of training that has been laid down, covering physical training, rifle exercises and drill for long periods. Naturally the younger men would stand up to it, but if a class of men from thirty-five to forty years of age should be called out at some later date, the syllabus of training could be changed in order that these men might be used for home service.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: Men of thirty-five years of age are at present exempted from physical training.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Would the syllabus have to be changed to make it suitable for the older men?


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Yes; the syllabus would have to be changed. I agree with the hon. member for Winnipeg South when he says that older men could take the places of many younger men, particularly in office work. I believe here in Ottawa there are hundreds of young men of military age who should be released for overseas service, while older men of thirty-five to forty-five years of age could be used here and in every district throughout Canada. They could serve as cooks, clerks and so forth. I understand that the women's auxiliary army is to be used for these purposes, but the older men could be used as well. Then the young men could be relieved for service overseas or active service in Canada-frankly I do not think very much of this active service in Canada, though I am not going to elaborate on that now-and the more strenuous work of fighting. I believe some scheme could be worked out by the defence department and the war services department whereby we could utilize the services of the younger men for the more strenuous work, while the older men could perform the less arduous duties. I believe training could be adjusted to suit the age of the men called up; this should be a simple matter.


Mr. FULFORD:: As one of those in the so-called awkward age, who was too young for the last war and apparently is too old for this one, it hurts a bit when, in a conscientious endeavour to do what one can for his country in a military way, he is told flatly either that he is too old or that he lacks military experience. I agree with the hon. member for Winnipeg South that a place should be found for men in what I can only call the awkward age, whether it be doing office work or whether it be in the specialized branches of the army such as the ordnance or the paymaster's corps. I know a great many men object to going into those branches. One hon. member suggests "the kitchen," but I think our army is pretty well equipped in that respect. The fact remains that there are many, many men between the ages of thirty-five and forty-two, we will say, who want to do more than they are permitted to do under the present regulations, and I think the minister would be well advised to take into consideration some of the suggestions that have been advanced to-night. I for one heartily approve them, and I believe the result of getting such men in the army would be most encouraging.


Howard Charles Green: What is the position with regard to young men who are not British subjects? There must be many thousands of young men domiciled here, earning their living in this country and probably intending to remain here all their lives, who are not citizens. Are they not subject to any kind of call?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Of course they were all subject to registration, but they have not been made subject to call for military training, even for home defence. The regulations apply only to:
. . . every male British subject who is or has been at any time subsequent to the first day of September, 1939, ordinarily resident in Canada while he is of the ages of twenty-one years to forty-five years inclusive, and who was, on the fifteenth of July, 1940, unmarried or a widower without child or children.
Therefore aliens are not subject to these regulations. I have checked this particular matter with the similiar provision in the United States draft law, and while in the United States everybody whether an American citizen or an alien, must register-and that provision is the same as we have in Canada,- in the United States they make subject to their draft law only American citizens and aliens who have indicated their intention of applying for American citizenship. I believe that is the language of the statute in the United States. Therefore even there they have

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gone perhaps a little further than we have in calling upon persons who have indicated their intention of becoming United States citizens. But they do not call aliens, other than the ones I have mentioned, any more than we do.


Howard Charles Green: I suggest to the minister
that this is one policy which should be changed, particularly because here in Canada we are trying to recruit our army for overseas on a voluntary basis. We are asking young men to enlist, and quite often we are met with the answer, "Why should I enlist, and a young chap who is not a British subject be in a position to take my job?" Here are these young men who are not British subjects, but who earn their living in this country, and they are not even called up for the defence of Canada.
Surely they could be called up for that. If not that, then at least they could be called to do road work, or something of that kind to help the nation. How can we ever expect to raise a large volunteer army if these other men have to assume no burden whatsoever for the defence of the country in a time of crisis like the present? Can the minister say how many thousands of these young men there are?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I think that information is available somewhere. I cannot find at the moment the information as to the number of aliens, but I can assure the hon. member for Vancouver South that the question of whether aliens should be made subject to these regulations has received careful attention. It is quite clear that the argument advanced by the hon. member this evening, that British
subjects ordinarily resident in Canada are called for military training while aliens are left free to make big wages in the factories, has been made.
I am inclined to think that if we applied the regulation to aliens, we could apply them only to friendly and not to enemy aliens. No one would think for a moment of making enemy aliens subject to the regulations. Then, if we made the regulations applicable only to aliens who are not enemy aliens, we would not have a satisfactory condition. If only enemy aliens are given the opportunity to stay at home and earn big wages, while the others are subject to military training, there would be dissatisfaction. We have not thus far made the regulations applicable, except to British subjects ordinarily resident in Canada, and I am inclined to think that on balance the argument is in favour of the course we have adopted.
I have here the statement showing by nationalities and by provinces the number of non-British subjects between the ages of 21 and 45, both inclusive, who registered in Canada in August.


Howard Charles Green: Single, or widowers without children?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes. Between the ages of 21 and 45.


Howard Charles Green: It includes married men.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: According to the heading I have here. From European countries, the total is 19,481; from American countries, 7,122, and from Asiatic countries, 1,126. The table is as follows:
Statement showing by nationalities and by provinces the number of non-British subjects between the ages of 21 and 45 both inclusive, who registered in Canada in August, 1940.
Summary
Ontario Quebec N.B.	N.S. P.E.I.	Man.	Sask.	Alta.	B.C.	TotalEuropean countries .	. . .. 4,255	383	235	262 4	2,549	2,453	5,014	4,326	19,481. ... 1,738	447	278	145 23	471	882	1,910	1,228	7,122Asiatic countries ...	.... 63	12	8	0 1	51	86	102	797	1,126Grand total ....	. ... 6,056	842	521	413 28	3,071	3,421	7,026	6,351	27,729
October 1, 1941.
Department of National War services.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Why could enemy aliens not be used on road work? In Saskatchewan at the present time Doukhobors, Mennonites and other conscientious objectors are use in the Prince Albert national park to build roads. Why could enemy aliens not be used for that purpose, if not in the army itself?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I suppose it would be possible to use them, if we put them, under a guard. But whether that would advance the war effort is quite another matter. They could be put to work, but whether it would be economical to do so is another matter.


Howard Charles Green: I do not think the minister appreciates the seriousness of the question.

The War-War Services
Any enemy aliens who are dangerous to Canada should be interned, if they are not already interned. The others are not dangerous to Canada, and surely could be used to do road- work. Aliens who are not enemy aliens could surely be used for home defence or, if necessary, they, too, could be used for road work. But I do not see how the government can sit back and be complacent about this subject. Out in the ridings we are meeting it every week. The complaint is made time and again: "Why should my boy enlist when an alien does not need to do anything? Why should my boy have to lose his job, only to come back here to find an alien in his place receiving an increased salary, and leaving no chance for my son to get work?" Those things are happening in the country.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No doubt about it.


Howard Charles Green: The ministry should not sit back, wash their hands of the question and say, "Oh, everything is1 all right, on balance; we think it is as well to carry on the way we are doing." It is for reasons like that the government is having trouble in getting recruits, and it will never get them in greater numbers until it tackles questions such as this with a great deal more determination. Here is one way in which recruiting across Canada could be helped. I do urge that the minister ought not to be satisfied to argue himself or to permit himself to be argued by the other ministers into the position of saying, "Oh, well, this question is taken care of well enough; just leave it alone, and carry on the way we are doing." The ministers are living in a fool's paradise if they think they can raise recruits while things like this are going on in Canada.


George Taylor Fulford: What was done in the conscription act of 1917? Were non-British subjects called to the colours, or called to do any other service for Canada at that time?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I do not think so.


Angus MacInnis: I do not. think we can liken this war to the war of 1914-18, because this is not a war where national boundaries have played the same part as they did at that time. There are persons here from enemy countries who are as much anti-nazi and anti-fascist as Canadians could possibly be. Until the nations fighting fascism and nazism learn to utilize the services and the will to destroy nazism of all those people who are opposed to it, we are not going to succeed very fast. We are doing that, of course, in the countries overrun by nazis, and possibly in the nazi and fascist countries themselves.
I think there are various means that could be taken to protect foreign persons who are not naturalized Canadians and bring them to the point where they would be at least potential Canadian or British subjects. After they had been in the country for some time they should be compelled to indicate their intention of becoming Canadian citizens, and after they had indicated their intentions their services could be used.
I should like to draw the attention of the committee to a situation on the west coast. There we have many Canadians of oriental or Asiatic origin, many of whom have indicated their desire to enlist in the armed forces of the country, to serve wherever they could be used, and their offers have been refused. Why should the services of these people not be used? They wish to give their services, if necessary their lives, in defence of the country which is theirs either by birth or by naturalization.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I suppose that would be
because they would not come within the definition I mentioned a moment ago, namely, British subjects ordinarily resident in Canada.


Angus MacInnis: They are British subjects; they were either born in Canada or have been naturalized.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: Does the hon. member want to give the Japs the vote?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) would like to make a statement, and I wonder if we could have a recess in this question period.
The committee rose and obtained leave to sit again at the next sitting of the house.



MAXIMUM PRICE REGULATIONS


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker, I wish to say that on the recommendation of the war-time prices and trade board the government has decided to postpone the effective date of the maximum prices regulations from November 17 to December 1. The reason for the postponement is to ensure the most effective possible administration and enforcement of the regulations from the moment they come into operation. No change in policy is involved. The board is anxious to have a complete organization equipped and ready to deal with any kind of problem or difficulty which may arise when the new price policy goes into effect. Considerable progress
Questions

has already been made, but there remain some important appointments of necessary commodity administrators to be made, and the organization of staff is not yet complete.
Mr. Hector McKinnon, chairman of the wartime prices and trade board, informs me that careful consideration is being given to the many questions which have been raised by all sections of the public. The board regards it of the highest importance that the new policy should come into operation in a manner which will enable the public, both buyers and sellers, to be given promptly all necessary information, answers to questions, and decisions with regard to the many problems which are bound to arise. The board has accordingly made the recommendation to the minister to defer the date of commencement to December 1.
On motion of Mr. Crerar the house adjourned at 10.55 p.m.
Wednesday, November 12, 1941