1941-02-26

[Stage Direction]
Mr. JEAN-FRANC'OIS POULIOT (Temis-couata): Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege. Since Saturday last there is not a name or an epithet which can be found in any ordinary or slang dictionary which has not been levelled at the member for Temiscouata by the "N.G." press. Naturally the paper with the richest vocabulary is the Ottawa Journal. This paper had an editorial

covering half a column about me, but that was under cover. In the issue of February 25 there is a report by Mr. Norman MacLeod, the British United Press correspondent, which reads in part as follows:
Actually, Conservative members said, the official opposition party abandoned any hope it had for union government after the recent speech by Jean-Fran?ois-
At this point the report is continued on page 12:
-Pouliot, Quebec Liberal member, in which he assailed union proponents.
This shows that this paper published falsehoods under the cover of truth.

Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to correct a statement made in the most interesting speech delivered by the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Roebuck) on Thursday last. One page 858 of Hansard appear these words:
The hon. member for Broadview suggested that something should be done in connection with the amalgamation of our railroads.
What I actually said is to be found on page 856, where I referred to the duplication of our railways and went on to say:
Why could not something be done in that regard to eliminate wastage, as has been done in Great Britain and in the United States?
The second point I wish to raise is this. In the Toronto Star of last Friday appeared an article entitled "Let Opposition Open Seats for Supermen." In this article it is stated that the hon. member for Trinity said that I said that the government should give the country "a real war administration." The article then goes on to quote further the words of the hon. member for Trinity as follows:
If it is proposed that members of the government resign in order that mythical men from the outside may come in, the opposition is in a position to demonstrate its bona fides by certain of its members resigning in order that these great men may be brought in in their places. This would show that hon. members opposite really mean what they were saying.
I used no such words as stated by the hon. member. What I did say will be found on page 855 of Hansard, as follows:
-that consideration should be given to uniting all parties in the country and in the house so that we may have a real war-time national government. I think the party system is one luxury we can do without during this war; there' has been altogether too much of it. A great many people think the government is conducting a Liberal war, and that our war effort is not being carried on in the non-partisan way it should be. There is some element of truth in that suggestion, I am afraid.

Questions
It will be seen that the words are quite different. I may say that the hon. member made a most interesting speech.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
foreign EXCHANGE CONTROL-SPECIAL TAX CREDITS AND DEPRECIATION ALLOWANCES
['1.\tYes.\n2.\tSpecial assistant to the master-general of the ordnance. In charge of the maintenance of mechanized vehicles.\n3.\tHamilton, Ontario.\n4.\tPresident and managing director of Canada Coach Lines, chairman of the board Martin Transport Limited.\n5.\tNo salary. He is paid a living allowance of $15 per day.']
Mr. ILSLEY:: This question is being
answered, but I should like to point out that the hon. gentleman did not amend his question to substitute the War Exchange Conservation Act for the Income War Tax Act and/or the Excess Profits Tax Act. I have answered the question as if that substitution had taken place.
1.	(a) 1, (b) 0, (c) 15.
2 and 3. It is not considered in the public interest to disclose the names or the nature of business of those making such applications. The War Exchange Conservation Act, chapter 2 of the statutes 1940-41, section 8(2), provides for the tabling of all agreements in parliament within fifteen days of entering into such agreement or, if parliament is not sitting, within fifteen days after the opening of the next session of parliament.
4. None to date. Several agreements are now in various stages of negotiation.
5 and 6. Answered by No. 4.



Mr. SENN:: How many civilians are employed at each of the following airports as of February 1, 1941: Dunnville, Jarvis, Hagersville, and Kohler?


Mr. RALSTON:: Dunnville, 59. Kohler: This is an emergency landing field under the
administration of Dunnville. The staff is, therefore, included in the Dunnville total and no break-down in personnel between the units is available. Jarvis, 98. Hagersville: This is an emergency landing field under the administration of Brantford. The staff is, therefore, included in Brantford's establishment and no break-down of personnel between units is available.


PUBLIC INFORMATION-&quot;CANADA CARRIES ON&quot;
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	Did the director of public information
issue a booklet or booklets entitled " Canada Carries On"?	.
2.	If so, what was the subject matter of each such booklet?
3.	How many copies of each were printed?
4.	What was the cost of printing each such booklet?
5.	What purpose was designed to be served by the publication of each such booklet?
6.	To whom were copies of each such booklet sent?
7.	What was the cost of such distribution?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Reports on the nature and extent of Canada's war effort, delivered to the House of Commons by ministers of the crown.
3.	"Canada Carries On"-(August 1940), English, 50,000 copies; French, 20,000 copies.
"Canada Carries On, No. 2"-(December 1940), English, 100,000 copies; French, 50,000 copies.
4.	"Canada Carries On" $2,157 plus sales tax.
"Canada Carries On, No. 2", approximately $5,200 (invoice not yet received).
5.	To fill a widespread and constant public demand for information of the type contained in the booklets. Publication served to meet thousands of requests for specific information, and to service a standing mailing list of persons, corporations and organizations desiring general information about Canada's war effort.
6.	Single copies to request mailing list (approximately 45,000 copies), members of parliament list, newspapers list, school-teachers list, public libraries list.
Parcels (upon request only) to a large number of addresses-the following being typical examples: -
War savings committees, boards of trade, Canadian Legion educational services, League of Nations Society, Frontier college, high schools, universities, provincial education departments, members of House of Commons, Book Fair, insurance companies, banks, factories, service clubs, Y.M.C.A., churches, British high commissioner, Canadian government trade commissioners at Lima, Peru;

Questions

Tokyo, Japan; Havana, Cuba; New York, U.S.A.; penitentiaries; National Defence auxiliary services.
7.	Approximately $2,500.


PRISONERS OF WAR IN CANADA
Mr. ROY:: 1.	How many war prisoners have keen sent to Canada?
2.	What sums have been expended by the dominion government for these _ prisoners and in what way has Canada contributed towards their maintenance?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Prisoners of war sent to Canada have been sent under arrangements with the government of the United Kingdom and the government of Newfoundland. It is not considered in the public interest that disclosure should be made of the number of prisoners of war interned in Canada under these arrangements.
2.	The government of the United Kingdom and the government of Newfoundland have assumed financial responsibility for the maintenance of these prisoners of war and sums disbursed for maintenance by the government of Canada are to be reimbursed by the government of the United Kingdom and the government of Newfoundland.


QUEBEC PROVINCE MILITARY TRAINING CAMPS
Mr. ROY:: 1.	How many military training camps have been established in the province of Quebec, and at what places?
2.	Who is the military officer in charge of each of such camps?


James Layton Ralston: Sixteen military training centres have been established in the province of Quebec, fourteen of which were established under the National Resources Mobilization Act training scheme, and two for active formations of the Canadian army, as follows:-
National Resources Mobilization Act training schemes and Commanding officers, Sherbrooke, Lt.-Col. J. S. Bourque; Farnham, Lt.-Col. A. T. Howard; Huntingdon, Lt.-Col. C. C. Brooks, M.C.; Joliette, Lt.-Col. G. V. de Bellefeuille; Valcartier, Captain G. M. S. Dorion; Megantic, Major L. P. Cliche; Mont-magny, Major J. P. J. Codreau, E.D.; St. Jerome, Lt.-Col. E. J. Nantel, E.D.; Sorel, Major G. Francoeuer, V.D.; St. Hyacinthe, Major R. Pothier; Valleyfield, Lt.-Col. J. R. J. Duhault; Chicoutimi, Major J. Landry; Levis, Major J. N. Tourgeon; Rimouski, Major P. H. L'Heureux.

Active formations of Canadian army and Commanding officers, Three Rivers, Lt.-Col. D. S. Forbes, M.C.; Valcartier, Lt.-Col. J. A. Dansereau.


INTERNED ALIENS-EMPLOYMENT ON TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Have any persons detained in internment camps been employed on construction work on the Trans-Canada highway?
2.	If so, how many have been so employed, for what length of time and at what locations?
3.	Did any of such persons escape? If so, how many?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	No.
2 and 3 answered by No. 1.


AIR FORCE-RECRUITING AND TRAINING CENTRES
Mr. ROY:: 1.	How many air force recruiting stations are there in Canada and where are they located?
2.	How many manning centres, training schools, of all description, elementary and otherwise, are there in Canada, under the Department of National Defence for Air, and where are they located?


James Layton Ralston: The following units are in operation as of the 21st February, 1941:
1.	Seventeen-located as outlined in attached list.
2.	Manning depots-5.
No. 1 Manning depot, Toronto, Ont.
No. 1A Manning depot (temporary), Picton, Ont.
No. 2 Manning depot, Brandon, Manitoba.
No. 3 Manning depot (temporary), Ottawa, Ont.
No. 4 Manning depot, Quebec, P.Q.
The technical training school, St. Thomas, Ont.
School of aeronautical engineering, Montreal, P.Q.
A.I.D. inspector's school, Toronto, Ont.
Equipment and accounting training school, St. Thomas, Ont.
School of administration, Trenton, Ont.
Air armament school, Trenton, Ont.
Motor boat crewman's training school, Trenton, Ont.
Initial training schools-3.
No. 1 initial training school, Toronto, Ont.
No. 2 initial training school, Regina, Sask.
No. 3 initial training school, Montreal, P.Q.
Central flying school, Trenton, Ont.
Training flight (temporary), Picton, Ont.

Questions
Elementary flying training schools-16.
No. 1 E.F.T.S., Malton, Ont.
No. 2 E.F.T.S., Fort William, Ont.
No. 3 E.F.T.S., London, Ont.
No. 4 E.F.T.S., Windsor Mills, P.Q.
No. 5 E.F.T.S., Lethbridge, Alta.
No. 6 E.F.T.S., Prince Albert, Sask.
No. 7 E.F.T.S., Windsor, Ont.
No. 8 E.F.T.S., Vancouver, B.C.
No. 9 E.F.T.S., St. Catharines, Ont.
No. 10 E.F.T.S., Hamilton, Ont.
No. 11 E.F.T.S., Cap de la Madeleine, P.Q.
No. 12 E.F.T.S., Goderich, Ont.
No. 13 E.F.T.S., St. Eugene, Ont.
No. 14 E.F.T.S., Portage la Prairie, Man. No. 15 E.F.T.S., Regina, Sask.
No. 16 E.F.T.S., Edmonton, Alta.
No. 1 air navigation school, Rivers, Man. Air observer schools-5.
No. 1 air observer school, Malton, Ont. No. 2 air observer school, Edmonton, Alta. No. 3 air observer school, Regina, Sask. No. 4 air observer school, London, Ont. No. 5 air observer school, Winnipeg, Man. Bombing and gunnery schools-3.
No. 1 bombing and gunnery school, Jarvis, Ont.
No. 2 bombing and gunnery school, Moss-bank, Sask.
No. 4 bombing and gunnery school, Fingal, Ont.
Wireless schools-3.
No. 1 wireless school, Montreal, P.Q.
No. 2 wireless school, Calgary, Alta.
No. 3 wireless school, Winnipeg, Man. Service flying training schools-9.
No. 1 S.F.T.S., Camp Borden, Ont.
No. 2 S.F.T.S., Ottawa, Ont.
No. 3 S.F.T.S., Calgary, Alta.
No. 4 S.F.T.S., Saskatoon, Sask.
No. 5 S.F.T.S., Brantford, Ont.
No. 6 S.F.T.S., Dunnville, Ont.
No. 7 S.F.T.S., Macleod, Alta.
No. 8 S.F.T.S., Moncton, N.B.
No. 9 S.F.T.S., Summerside, P.E.I.
In addition to the above schools of the Royal Canadian Air Force, there are certain special schools by the Royal Air Force. It is not deemed in the public interest to give either the names or locations of these schools.
In addition to the above schools there are also two training units maintained by the home war establishment: School of army cooperation, Ottawa, Ont.; No. 13 operational training squadron, Patricia Bay, B.C.
List and addresses of R.C.A.F. recruiting centres: Vancouver, B.C., 332 Federal building; Calgary, Alta., 120&-lst street east; Edmonton, Alta., Provincial building; Saskatoon, Sask., 14873-661
Birks bldg., 153 Third ave. S.; Regina, Sask., New Regina Trading Co. bldg.; Winnipeg,. Man., Lindsay bldg., 228 Notre Dame ave.;. North bay, Ont., 99 Main street west;. Windsor, Ont., Liddy bldg.. 461 Ouellette ave,; London, Ont., Old Post Office building; Hamilton, Ont., 275 James street south; Toronto,. Ont., 297 Bay street; Ottawa, Ont., 90 O'Connor street; Montreal, Que., Post Office bldg., 1254 Bishop st.; Quebec, P.Q., 53 Buade street; Moncton, N.B., Dominion public building; Halifax, N.S., Broadcasting House, 10 Tobin st.; Charlottetown, P.E.I., 25 Kent street.


INTERNED ALIENS-DEPORTATION AFTER THE WAB
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Were aliens in Canada who have been interned during the present war permitted to retain possession of their property?
2.	Will they be subject to deportation on the cessation of hostilities or shall we allow to remain in Canada members of the fifth column who have been or shall be interned for the duration of the war?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Under the consolidated regulations respecting trading with the enemy, 1939, the definition of "enemy" includes "any person who has been detained under the defence of Canada regulations during the .period of such detention". The property, therefore, of any such person for the period of detention is vested in the custodian of enemy property.
2.	Information is not available as to the number of interned persons who may be subject to deportation under the immigration laws as they stand at present. This inquiry raises a question of government policy which, obviously, cannot be settled until the termination of hostilities.


CANADIAN ARMY-ENLISTED MEN PAID AS TRADESMEN
Mr. WINKLER:: 1.	Are any of the enlisted men in the C.A.S.F. receiving pay as tradesmen, such as carpenters and so forth?
2.	Did recruiting officers receive authority to offer the going pay as tradesmen in order to induce men to enlist?


Mr. RALSTON:: 1.	The financial regulations and instructions for the Canadian active service force on active service provide that warrant officers, noncommissioned officers and men employed as tradesmen in capacities and under such limitations and conditions as are authorized by the minister, shall, if qualified and approved by the officer commanding the unit to which they belong, be entitled to receive tradesmen's rates of pay.
Questions

2.	No instructions authorizing recruiting officers to offer tradesmen's rates of pay as an inducement to men to enlist have been issued by the Department of National Defence.


ANGLIN NORCHOSS COMPANY-CONTRACTS
[Stage Direction]
Mr. LaCROIX (Quebec-Montmorency):
1.	Have any contracts, without tenders being called for, been given to the firm of Anglin Norcross Company, Limited, for national defence works in the city of Quebec or at Valcartier?
2.	If so, (a) on what conditions are such contracts awarded; (b) what is the total amount of such contracts; (e) why did the government not ask for tenders from local contractors?
Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Yes. A general construction contract was awarded the Anglin Norcross Quebec Limited, 892 Sherbrooke Street West, Montreal, Quebec, for a small arms ammunition factory for the Quebec arsenal at St. Malo, Palace Hill and Valcartier, file 4-1-129, P.C. 3320, which included reconstruction of the St. Malo shops, the construction of additional buildings at St. Malo, Palace Hill and Valcartier, the installation of the machinery and equipment and the construction of all works and services required for the completion of the undertaking.
2.	(a) The contract was awarded on the basis of cost plus a fixed fee. Included as items of cost are plant rental at the rate of 3 per cent per month, which is the usual rental provided in such contracts, and a service charge of 86,000 a month to cover the cost of the work done in the contractor's Montreal office as follows: (a) Estimating quantities and preparing building material; (b) purchasing construction materials; (c) arranging and awarding sub-contracts; (d) expediting deliveries; (e) accounting, invoices, pay-rolls, monthly statements; (f) financial arrangements, invoices, tax reports, insurance, etc.; <g) employment services. The amount of the fixed fee is 835,000, and covers salaries of the contractors, executives, office rent, a proportion of the Montreal office expenses and profit.
(b)	The total estimated expenditure on the original project is $2,500,000, which was required to double the productive capacity of the arsenal for -303 ammunition. Since this was awarded, and upon request from the United Kingdom for a still greater arsenal output, a further extension of this contract is planned, to the amount of $2,700,000, making a total estimated expenditure on the Anglin Norcross Quebec Limited contract of $5,200,-
000.	The increase of the fixed fee payable ]Mr. Ralston.]
to the contractor is $17,500, making a total of $52,500 as the fixed fee for the original contract plus the extension.
The foregoing represents only one part of the total extension necessary to the Quebec arsenal, the total estimated expenditure being $10,000,000, comprising $5,200,000 (Anglin Norcross Quebec Limited) as heretofore stated, as the estimated cost of the construction work herein reported, and $4,800,000 to cover the cost of machinery, engineering expenses and certain other construction work not covered by the Anglin Norcross Quebec Limited contract, and which will be awarded to local contractors.
(c)	The work covered by Anglin Norcross Quebec Limited on the original contract ($2,500,000) was so complicated and so urgently required that, after consultation with the officers in charge of the arsenal, it was considered impracticable to prepare plans and specifications and to call for tenders in the usual way. Not only were new buildings to be built, but extensive alterations and extensions to existing buildings were required, as well as a large amount of mechanical work of a special nature that could not be contracted for on a unit price or lump sum basis. To ensure the completion of all phases of the work at the proper time, the recommendation of the department's consulting engineers was taken, that all the construction work be entrusted to a single firm having adequate personnel experienced in this kind of work and immediately available.
For the additional work made necessary by the increase in the capacity of the arsenal, for which provision has been made in the amount of $2,700,000, the arsenal authorities were insistent that the contractor already engaged in constructing the factory buildings and installing the equipment therein should also construct the extensions to such buildings and complete the installation of the additional machinery in the buildings being constructed by him and the extensions thereto. In their view, the employment of other contractors in these buildings at the same time would have resulted in confusion and delay and have unnecessarily interfered with the arsenal output.
For the balance of the expansion to the Quebec arsenal not covered by work already contracted for by the Anglin Norcross Quebec Limited, it is proposed that plans and specifications for the construction work be prepared by local architects, and the construction contracts awarded to contractors in the vicinity who are able to tender. The amount of such work will be substantial.

Questions


DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE-EMPLOYMENT OF ADJUTOR SAVARD
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Was Mr. Adjutor Savard in the employ of the dominion government before, during and after the interprovineiail conference of the 14th and 15th January, 1941?
2.	If so, for what length of time?
3.	What were his duties?
4.	How much did he receive for such services?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	Yes.
2 and 3. Executive assistant to secretary of dominion-provincial conference, December 4, 1940, to January 31, 1941.
4.	At the rate of $425 a month.


WAR SAVINGS CAMPAIGN-EMPLOYMENT OF ADJUTOR SAVARD
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Is Mr. Adjutor Savard in the employ of the dominion government as French publicist for the war savings campaign?
2.	If so, how much is he being paid for his services?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	No. (However, it is understood that he is employed by the Canadian publishers' war
Military	Dec., 1938 No. of candi- No.	March, 1939 No. of candi- No.	district	dates	qual.	dates	qual.1	.. 58	32	102	782	.. 76	42	142	1153	.. 106	81	308	1924	.. 102	65	162	1105	.. 58	41	112	686	.. 72	59	146	1127	.. 64	38	115	7510	.. 89	65	162	11211	.. 72	58	148	9812	.. 68	42	120	8213	.. 82	58	256	92
finance committee. This committee, which is similar in function to those committees which played an important part during the war loan campaigns of the last war, was set up by Canadian publishers to assist the Minister of Finance in connection with the advertising and publicity aspects of the war savings campaign. A voluntary offer of the publishers to provide this type of cooperation in Canada's war effort was accepted by the minister but responsibility for the organization rests solely on the publishers themselves. The government has had no voice in the selection of the committee or its sub-committees or its employees but has agreed to recoup the committee for its out-of-pocket expenses.)
2.	Answered by No. 1.


CANADIAN ARMY-EXAMINATIONS FOR QUALIFICATION AS LIEUTENANT
Mr. CLAXTON:: How many candidates in each military district tried, and how many passed, the examinations set by the national defence headquarters for qualification as lieutenant, in December, 1938, in March, 1939, in December, 1939, in March, 1940, and in December, 1940?


James Layton Ralston: See following statementt
Dec.,	1939	March,	1940	Dec., 1946No. of	No. of	No. ofcandi-	No.	candi-	No.	candi- No.dates	qual.	dates	qual.	dates qua176	125	198	102	196	142	184	133	Returns453	377	565	445	280	109	1,684	920	not yet210	98	276	158	201	110	182	151	complete201	109	188	58	224	176	476	380	248	176	282	187	114	72	128	92	392	no	532	171


WAR MATERIALS-CONTRACTS IN QUEBEC PROVINCE
Mr. ROY:: 1.	How many plants or workshops suitable for the manufacture of war materials are located in each of the following counties- Gaspe, Magdalen islands, Bonarmnture, Mata-pedia-Matane, Rimouski, Richelieu, Quebec, and Kingston and London, Ontario?
2.	How many contracts for war materials have been awarded to date in each of the following counties-Gaspe, Magdalen islands, Bonaventure, Matapedia-Matane, Rimouski and in the cities of Quebec, Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton and Peterborough, and the counties in which such cities are located?
3.	What is the amount of each and to whom was it awarded?


Mr. HOWE:: 1. The plant records division of the Department of Munitions and Supply show the following plants, which have been indexed as possible sources of supply for war materials. It is not possible to state in each case which of these are "suitable".
Gaspe county-None.
Magdalen islands county-None.
Bonaventure county-One.
Matapedia-Matane county-Two.
Rimouski county-Two.
Richelieu county-Five.
Quebec county-Twenty, most of which are suitable for certain war requirements.
Questions

Kingston (city)-Seven, of which four are suitable.
London (city)-Thirty-five, of which twenty are suitable.
2.	See published Record of Contracts Awarded, and pages 244 and 462, Hansard, regarding blanket questions.
3.	Answered by 2.


FREIGHT RATES ON GRAIN FOR STOCK FEEDING- AGREEMENTS WITH PROVINCES
Mr. REID:: 1.	Have any agreements been entered into between the dominion government and any of the provinces in connection with the absorption of the costs of freight tolls on grain used for stock feeding and coming from any of the three prairie provinces?
2.	If so, what is the nature and extent of any such agreements or proposal made or entered into?
3.	Was any such proposal made to all the provinces?
4.	If so, what provinces have accepted or agreed to accept any such proposal?
5.	What provinces have so far entered into any such arrangement?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Agreement with one province is pending.
2.	Not yet completed.
3.	Offer of freight assistance was made to all eastern provinces and it was intimated to British Columbia that we were prepared to work out a similar arrangement for British Columbia if desired.
4 and 5. Answered by No. 1.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT-EMPLOYEES
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: How many appointments have been made to date in connection with the Unemployment Insurance Act, .and what number of employees is it anticipated will be required in order to administer said act?


Mr. McLARTY:: Appointments: Permanent, 2 commissioners, 1 chief commissioner, later deceased, whose place has been taken by an acting chief commissioner, 8 officials; temporary, 11 clerks and stenographers; on loan from other branches of government service, 7 clerks and stenographers; total, 29.
The unemployment insurance commission Teports that its procedures and plans have not as yet been developed to the point where an accurate estimate of the number of employees which will ultimately be required to administer the act may be made. During the hearings before the special committee appointed by the House of Commons to consider the unemployment insurance bill in July, 1940, an approximation was stated to be in the neighbourhood of 3,000 employees.


CANADIAN ARMY-PROVISION FOR DEPENDENTS
Mr. COCKERAM:: 1.	What provision has been made to take care of dependents of men serving in the active forces in Canada, should they die from natural causes during such service?
2.	What provision has been made to take care of dependents of men serving in the reserve army, who should die whilst on parade and carrying on their normal military duties?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: 1.	Order in council P.C. 1971 of the 21st May, 1940, provides that the provisions of section 11 (2) of the Pension Act shall apply in respect of disability or death incurred by members of the naval, military or air forces of Canada while serving in Canada after that date. Under that section of the Pension Act, pension may be awarded the dependents of a deceased member of the forces when the injury or disease or the aggravation thereof resulting in death arose out of and was directly connected with such military services.
2.	The same provisions apply to members of the reserve army while on duty.


SOUTH WATERLOO, ONT., CHIEF CENSUS OFFICER
Mr. HOMUTH:: 1.	Who has been named chief census officer for South Waterloo?
2.	By whom was he recommended for the position?
3.	Who has been named chief census officer for North Waterloo?
4.	By whom was he recommended for the position?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	J. N. Courtney, Hespeler, Ont.
2.	The Minister of Trade and Commerce.
3.	J. E. Wagner, Kitchener, Ont.
4.	The Minister of Trade and Commerce.


DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE-SECRETARY OF CONSTITUTIONAL COMMITTEE
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	Who was designated to act as secretary of the constitutional committee of the dominion-provincial conference?
2.	Was any allowance or other remuneration paid to him?
3.	If so, what was the amount of such allowance or other remuneration?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	Brooke Claxton, K.C., M.P.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by 2.


WAR CONTRACTS DEPRECIATION BOARD
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	Is F. H. Black associated with the war contracts depreciation board?
2.	If so, in what capacity?
3.	What is his usual place of residence?

Questions as Orders jor Returns
4.	What is his usual occupation?
5.	What salary allowance or other remuneration is paid to him?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	As a member of the board, munitions and supply representative.
3.	Port Arthur, Ontario.
4.	Senior partner of the firm Black and Hanson, chartered accounts of Winnipeg and Port Arthur.
5.	Fee of $50 per day for each day he is in attendance as a member of the board, plus travelling expenses to and from Ottawa in the exercise of his duties as a member of the board.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-FRANCIS FARWELL
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	Is Francis Farwell employed in the Department of National Defence?
2.	If so, in what capacity?
3.	What is his usual place of residence?
4.	What is his usual occupation?
5.	What salary allowance or other remuneration is paid to him?


Mr. RALSTON:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Special assistant to the master-general of the ordnance. In charge of the maintenance of mechanized vehicles.
3.	Hamilton, Ontario.
4.	President and managing director of Canada Coach Lines, chairman of the board Martin Transport Limited.
5.	No salary. He is paid a living allowance of $15 per day.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. ROY:: 1.	Were any representations made to the government for the establishment of military training camps in either or all of the following counties: Hull, Pontiac, Wright, Labelle, Chap-leau and Gaspe ?
2.	If so, by whom were these representations made and what action was taken?



FOREIGN EXCHANGE-RETIREMENT OF CANADIAN LOANS

Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: How many United States dollars were used by Canada in each of the years 1939 and 1940 to retire (a) Dominion of Canada loans; (b) loans on Canadian enterprises owned by or carrying the endorsement or guarantee of the Dominion of Canada?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Order for return.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: May I ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) why this question should not be answered rather than made an order for return?


James Lorimer Ilsley: It applies to two departments, Finance and Transport. That is the reason.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not see where Transport comes in. However, the minister may be right.



DEBERT, N.S., AIRPORT AND MILITARY CAMP

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	What acreage has been acquired for the Debert airport and military camp, (a) airport; (b) military camp?
2.	From whom were such lands secured, stating, (a) the acreage from each party; (b) the prices asked by each party, (c) the amount paid or offered in payment?
3.	What has been the total expenditures for drainage, stating, (a) the quantity of tile or drainage or sewer pipe purchased, (b) from *whom such pipe was purchased and the delivered prices for each size?


James Layton Ralston: Acquisition of the land and titles thereto has not yet been completed. A number of properties are still under negotiation. The Department of Munitions and Supply is interested in the third part of the question, so I think it ought to be made an order for a return.



DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL WAR SERVICES- PERSONNEL

Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	What are the names of the personnel of the department of war services?
2.	What are their respective duties and salaries?
3.	What was their occupation and address at the time of appointment?
4.	Who of them have had previous active war service?


Mr. GARDINER:: Order for return.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This question certainly applies to only one department and I object to its being made an order for return. The question should be answered.


James Garfield Gardiner: It would be a fairly
long answer. The staffs are spread right across Canada from Vancouver to Halifax, and it would take some time to get the information compiled. I think this should be made an order for return.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think so. The basis of an order for return is that more than one department is interested.

Questions as Orders for Returns


James Garfield Gardiner: There are other reasons.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But that is the main reason and the one I have always heard urged in this house. I know that the government has considerable authority in this matter, but I do know that private members are entitled to get the answers to their questions on record unless there is some primary reason why that should not be done. I have heard that alleged by hon. gentlemen opposite when they were sitting over here.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: As my hon. friend is aware it is for the government itself to decide whether it will have a question answered immediately or be made an order for return, and the government takes the responsibility for its decision.



WAR MATERIALS AND SUPPLIES-SHIPS, AEROPLANES, AUTOMOBILE UNITS AND NAVAL GUNS

Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	How many ships will be in service in the Royal Canadian Navy by March 31, 1941?
2.	How many aeroplanes are now being produced per month or will be produced per month by March 31, 1941?
3.	How many Anson aeroplanes have been produced up to the 1st of February, 1941?
4.	How many Anson aeroplanes have been produced in Canada for training purposes?
5.	What other types of aeroplanes are being made in Canada and what has been the production of each up to the 1st of February, 1941?
6.	How many automotive units for military purposes were being produced per day on January 31, 1941?
7.	How many naval guns have been produced in Canada's largest gun plant up to February 1, 1941?
8.	What is the size of the largest naval gun produced?
9.	How many 25-pounders have been produced by February 1, 1941?
10.	Have any of the latter been sent overseas? If so, how many?



GOVERNMENT PURCHASES OF MOTOR CARS

Mr. COCKERAM:: 1.	How many motor cars have been purchased by the government since September 1, 1939, for the use of, (a) headquarters staff of the Department of National Defence; (b) headquarters staff of the Department of National Defence for Air; (c) headquarters staff of the Department of National Defence for Naval Affairs?
2.	What make or makes of cars have been so purchased?
3.	What number of each make was purchased?
4.	What are the names and the positions respectively of each of the officers and/or officials of each of the several departments mentioned who are entitled to the use of the motor cars so purchased by the government?
5.	How many men enlisted in the services are engaged in full or part time duty as chauffeurs?
6.	What is the total amount expended to date for the oars so purchased for gas, oil and maintenance?



REESTABLISHMENT OF SOLDIERS INVALIDED HOME OR DISCHARGED AS MEDICALLY UNFIT

Mr. COCKERAM:: 1.	What are the total enlistments by provinces in Canada for the following: (a) navy; (b)
R.	C.A.F.; (c) active army; (cl) reserve army?
2.	How many men have been discharged as medically unfit since September 1, 1939, to January 31, 1941, from the following forces: (a) navy; (b) R.C.A.F.; (c) active forces?
3.	How many men have been invalided home from overseas on account of wounds?
4.	How many men have been invalided home from overseas on account of illness?
5.	What steps have been taken to reestablish these men in civilian life other than one month's pay, one month's dependents' allowance and clothing allowance of $35?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. CARDIFF:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, memoranda and/or other documents and papers in the possession of the govexmment, relating to all contracts, supplementary contracts or agreements and/or revisions of contracts or agreements entered into between his majesty's government in Canada and the John Inglis Company of Toronto since September 1, 1939.



BAIE-DES-SABLES, QUE.-WHARF CONTRACT

Mr. ROY:: For a copy of all correspondence, reports, estimates, recommendations, bills and vouchers, bearing on the payment of the sum of $14,332.50 by the government to Bertrand and Brother, L'Orignal, Ontario, as compensation for the cancellation and termination of a contract awarded in 1939 for the construction of a wharf at Baie-des-Sables, county of Matane, for the approximate sum of $70,832.86, and covered by a budget appropriation of $25,000.



WAR SAVINGS CERTIFICATES-COST OF CAMPAIGN

Mr. COCKERAM:: For a return showing: (a) the total amount of money expended to date in advertising the sale of war savings certificates; (b) the names of the agencies employed for this purpose;
(c)	the amounts paid to each such agency;
(d)	the names of all persons employed with remuneration in the organization of the campaign; (e) the amounts, paid to each such person.



WEIGHTS AND MEASURES

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: For a copy of the report submitted by
S.	Cuddy, Esq., supervisor of short weights to E. O. Way, director of weights and measures, under date of October 13, 1939.
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): Mr. Speaker, the report in question is confidential, and in my opinion it is not in the public interest that it be released.
Motion dropped.

War Appropriation Bill



WAR REFUGEES AND PRISONERS OF WAR

Joseph Sasseville Roy: For a copy of all correspondenee, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the government of the province of Quebec and the dominion government, since the beginning of the present war to date, with respect to war' refugees and prisoners of war.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am informed by my colleague the Secretary of State that he does not recall any exchange of correspon-. dence between the government of Quebec and the dominion government with respect to the war refugees and prisoners of war, since the beginning of the war. Apart from that, however, I do not think that correspondence with respect to prisoners of war should be brought down at this time. In that circumstance, the order would not pass.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the Prime Minister state as a matter of fact that there is not any correspondence?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot say as a matter of fact, but I asked my colleague the Secretary of State if there was any, and he said that as far as he could recollect he had not any. However, he might refresh his memory. Even if there is, I do not think it would be proper to have it brought down.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We can debate that later on. Could we not let the motion stand until it is ascertained whether there is any correspondence?


Mr. POULIOT:: I ask the leader of the opposition to rise to speak, and not to speak while sitting. Let us have manners-good manners-in the house.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Dropped.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, February 21, consideration in committee of a resolution to provide sums not exceeding $1,300,000,000 for the year ending March 31, 1942, for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war

Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Vien in the chair.
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: Under this heading I should like to bring up a matter which particularly concerns the war effort of Canada and should come under this bill. I am speaking as a member of this house, as one who lost his brother in the last war, and as one who is himself a returned soldier. On February 19, the leader of a party for whom I have always had the greatest admiration, made this statement: I quote from Hansard, page 838:
Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury):	It is a
rhetorical question; the Prime Minister can answer later if he wants to. The fact is that Australia is on the field of battle, and Canada is not.
Mr. Mackenzie King: I deny that absolutely. Canada is very mucn on the field of battle.
Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury):	Tell that to
the marines! The people of Canada know that we are not in Libya. We have a few airmen in England; we have men in training in England.
Speaking as a member and as a returned soldier, I resent that, not only on my own behalf, but on behalf of all t)he returned soldiers in Canada, for whom I believe I -may speak. I do not know in what regiment the leader of the opposition served in the last war, but I served in the 29th battalion. I speak for every returned soldier in Canada, and for the mother, the father, and sister and brother of every soldier we have in the present theatres of war. I wonder what contribution the leader of the opposition thought he was making to this war effort when he cast such an aspersion on the Canadians who are in England and other theatres of war to-day. Do not forget that we have nurses over there undergoing bombing raids and taking all kinds of risks. On their behalf and also on behalf of all our constituents, let me say that if this is the type of leadership we are to expect from a so-called national government, the returned soldiers of the last war and the men who are in the front line in the present struggle do not want those people as leaders of any government during the continuance of this war.


Mr. HOWE:: I have been asked on several occasions to make a statement on the situation affecting war production in Canada with particular reference to the aircraft industry, and with the consent of hon. members I will do so at this time.
In discussing the work of the Department of Munitions and Supply, perhaps I should first say a word about the department itself. It is a popular sport to criticize the department, and the criticism from some quarters is nothing short of abusive. In an editorial which I picked1 up to-day I saw the department described as the "cumbrous, amorphous and overloaded department of munitions and supply, reaching the breaking point." I think it is fair to the men who are carrying on the work of the department to say just a word about it from their point of view.
The department has been charged with all the purchasing for the army, the navy and the air force, and has to carry out all military construction work in Canada, with the exception of some work carried on by the army by day labour, and also to purchase for the government of Great Britain, the
War Appropriation Bill

governments of Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India, and two or three governments outside the empire.


Mr. MacNICOL:: That is, purchases in
America?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Purchases in Canada. That
work has grown to very large proportions; I am not denying that at all. I doubt whether hon. members have any real idea of the proportions to which it has grown, but I illustrated it a day or two ago when I said that whereas the first Bren contract, which was regarded at the time as quite considerable, called for 5,000 guns a year, the house would not believe me when I informed it that the present contracts with the Bren company called for a production of 97,500 a year or 194 times the original number. And yet people have to be convinced that this is so- the very people who every few days make the charge that nothing is being done by Canada in organizing the productive capacity of the country.
Anyone who will take a railway journey through the maritime provinces will see our railways in that section taxed to capacity. The ports of Saint John and Halifax are overtaxed in the effort to move the products of Canada destined for war areas. Anyone who takes that trip should think back and reflect upon the fact that this situation is due to the productive capacity of the country organized for war.
As to whether the department is cumbrous and amorphous, I looked up the dictionary to make sure that I had the right meaning of the word "amorphous." I find1 that it means shapeless or unorganized. Is the department unorganized? I have here an organization chart which is kept up to date for each month. It shows the direct relationship between the branches of the department, to whom they report, and by what channels they reach the minister for such decisions that have to be made. I wish to place this chart on Hansard.* It might be interesting to hon. members.
As to whether the department is reaching the breaking point, I read in the press daily that my health is breaking down, that I am close to the breaking point, though personally I have not noticed anything of the kind. My own view is that I should be the first to notice such a thing. Others may think I should be the last to be aware of it, but I know that the Prime Minister keeps a very careful eye on the work of all departments and I am perfectly sure that if I were past or even near the breaking point he would so advise me and assign me to less onerous
*See chart following page 1042.

duties. That is his responsibility, and I have not the slightest doubt that he will discharge it. I want no sympathy for myself. I did not ask for the job of minister of munitions; it was assigned to me. I took it because I thought it was my duty to do so, and I intend to fill the position until I am asked to assume other duties or to step down. If in carrying out the duties of the office I break down, that will be no one's loss but my own.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The country's
loss.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I ask for no sympathy on that score. As to whether the department has reached the breaking point, to my mind the Department of Munitions and Supply is just as virile and as able to carry on to-day as it was when I took over. We keep it alive by constantly infusing new blood into it. Not a month passes but we ask a prominent executive, some man who has established his ability as an executive in Canada, to take over some of the work of the department. In the last month we have asked four prominent executives to lend us their services. One is Mr. Harry Carmichael, who left a position carrying a very large salary as vice-president and general manager of General Motors Corporation of Canada. We requested him to work for the Department of Munitions and Supply without salary. We have taken in Mr. R. C. Berkinshaw, general manager of Goodyear Tire and Rubber company. We have taken in Mr. Brown, an important executive of the Canadian Bank of Commerce, and Mr. Joseph Piggott, one of the most prominent contractors of the country-all giving full-time work without salary. I doubt whether they would have left these important positions to join a department that is "cumbrous, amorphous and reaching the breaking point."
I do not wish to stress this point but I think I speak for the many executives who have left prominent positions in civil life to work with the department when I say that we ask for no sympathy so far as the personnel of the department is concerned.
It has been said that we are working without a plan. The leader of the opposition said that while Mr. Purvis knew exactly where he was going, the Department of Munitions and Supply was working along from day to day without a plan and without an objective. I have here two letters that are interesting on that point, though they are not of importance otherwise. One is addressed to Mr. Fairweather, the director-general of the economics and statistic branch, by the head

War Appropriation Bill
of the planning branch of the British purchasing commission in Washington. It is dated February 5. I quote:
Dear Mr. Fairweather:
It is only in the last day or so that I have had an opportunity to go over the figures you brought down from Canada last week. The more I study them, the more convinced I am that you have given us just what we needed. Mr. Purvis and Mr. Monnet are both very well satisfied.
I shall probably be sending you teletypes from time to time in connection with some of the details as we go deeper into the figures, but the information in your tables is ample for our purposes and gives a comprehensive picture of the entire Canadian effort.
May I thank you for all the trouble you *took in preparing the tables and bringing them down to us.
I was sorry that you were not able to stay longer in Washington.
John S. Guest.
There is another letter from Mr. Guest dated February 18:
Many thanks for your letter of February 14 with supplementary forecasts of deliveries of certain items from April-December 1942.
We realize fully that the projection of output shown on your quarterly tables assumes that the capacity continues to be employed on repeat orders and that it makes no allowance for output from new capacity not yet under construction.
Your annual figures for maximum potential output do take account of such possible new capacity. The possession of both of these sets of figures greatly adds to the value of each. We anticipate that our forecast of United States deliveries will be ready by the end of next week, and we shall be glad to send copies up to Mr. Howe.
Notice that; ours is in, and the other is coming.
In discussing our aircraft production, I wish to be exceedingly frank as to how it stands. I think hon. members should bear in mind that all we can do in the Department of Munitions and Supply is to organize industry as efficiently as possible, and to place the work that we are required to place with the firms best able to do it, having in mind their other commitments. If an industry is capable and is working along lines for which it has been organized, we invariably find that that industry is able to meet and in many cases to exceed our expectation. If we are dealing with an industry which has been newly created, one which has little background and has expanded rapidly, we are not able to forecast accurately what that industry will do. I have in mind the aeroplane industry, which in 1937 was practically nothing, but which to-day employs about eighteen thousand people. We study the situation and base our plans upon what we think an industry ought to do. Obviously we are not able to predict with the same degree of exactitude that we can in wellorganized industries, or in connection with a substantial industry performing in its own sphere.
Again, we have reliable industries with established production reputations coming into production on articles the manufacture of which is entirely strange to them. There again predictions are apt to be unreliable. If someone would like to read another view on this point I suggest he might be interested in reading an article by Mr. Charles F. Kettering, president of the General Motors research corporation. I might add that Mr. Kettering is credited with having improved methods of automobile manufacturing to an extent greater than any other man living. The title of that article is "Guns are not Windshield Wipers," and it appears in the Saturday Evening Post-


Richard Burpee Hanson: What?


Clarence Decatur Howe: -the issue of January 18. It is a warning, particularly to the automobile industry in the United States, that when they step into the manufacture of aeroplanes, guns and aeroplane engines they are stepping into a field unknown to them, and that they will not have a background of twenty years of progress to guide them. It advises them not to make too optimistic promises. We find that borne out in the production situation as it is to-day.
In Canada we have ten major divisions of production. Of those ten divisions, seven are fully up to or ahead of schedule. Three are not up to schedule and are not in as good position as the other seven.
First I refer to personal equipment, the general buying of clothing and articles used by the troops. As is known, we had difficulty in the early days of the war in bringing that industry up to the production level required. There is no difficulty to-day. We are well ahead in every branch of that industry.
As to the construction industry; in the last building season we tested that industry in a way in which I believe it had never been tested before in Canada, and it met every demand made upon it. As hon. members know, so far as the air training programme was concerned we did two years' construction in one, and we carried on a great amount of work in other branches of the service. No difficulty there.
In regard to shipbuilding, when our naval programme was under consideration we made a survey of the shipyards in Canada, and an estimate of the production we could obtain from those shipyards. I can report that those forecasts have been greatly exceeded; we have a much greater output of shipbuilding than we had forecast at the time we laid down our programme.
War Appropriation Bill

In the matter of mechanical transport, there we have a well organized industry, one of the best organized in Canada, and one of the most efficient. It was able to turn its facilities over to the manufacture of mechanical transport and universal carriers. It has met every strain put upon it. That industry in Canada has been so efficient that Great Britain has not found it necessary to enter the great market across the line for the purchase of motor transports.
In the matter of chemicals and explosives we have lived up to every prediction. Our first huge explosive plant was brought in two months ahead of schedule, and to-day not only is it producing at capacity, but it is producing about twenty-five per cent over capacity. The balance of the programme is well up to schedule. No plant is seriously behind schedule, and there are several plants well ahead. So that we have nothing of an adverse character to report in connection with chemicals and explosives.
Shells and shell components. Here again we are well up to schedule. We had in Canada a great number of manufacturing plants that had made shells during the last war, and which were able to step quickly into production at the beginning of this one. They have been able to maintain every promise we exacted from them when we placed our shell orders. The same applies to components-that is fuses, time fuses, gains, and all components which go into the finished loaded shell. That work is well up to schedule, and there again I can think of no situation which should be called to the attention of the committee as being out of step. I might -say that we are producing to-day about 350,000 shells a month, a million svery three months.
With respect to steel production, we have made a tremendous expansion. If I were to give the figures for steel production in each of the last three years I believe I would have hon. members correcting me again, and making the suggestion that I must be mistaken. Since the war started we have greatly enlarged the potential steel capacity of Canada, and that industry is producing as much as, in fact more than, we ever expected of it.
Alloys production. Here again we have stepped up the industry to ten or twelve times its pre-war capacity. Plants have been coming in from time to time, and production is fully up to schedule.
Small arms ammunition. Here again we are meeting with great success. The production of small arms ammunition constitutes one of our largest programmes. Each plant has come in either when scheduled or before scheduled. The quality of the ammunition is exceptionally

fine. I think we are making to-day about 80 per cent red label ammunition, as against about 40 per cent on orders placed at the same time in the United States. "Red label" ammunition means ammunition used in aircraft. It must be of the highest quality, and is especially tested for that purpose.
Now we come to the branches of the department which are not fully up to schedule, the first of which is aeroplanes. As I said a few moments ago, here we have a mushroom industry which has expanded rapidly, an industry with no background in this country, whose only designing talent has been that created in this country in the last few years. We have been taking new men into this industry in tremendous numbers, giving them brief training and putting them in as production mechanics. I intend to give a comprehensive statement of what has been accomplished, and I do not think Canada has anything to be ashamed of in that connection, though I am frank to say that we cannot predict what will be done in this industry with anything like the accuracy with which we can predict developments in other branches. As a matter of fact our predictions for every branch of the aeroplane industry have been somewhat too optimistic.
Then we come to tanks and universal carriers. As I have said, these universal carriers are up to schedule. Production was a bit late in starting, but to-day it is what we anticipated. I think the programme actually was about two months late in starting, but I do not believe there will be any great difficulty in regaining that lost ground, because it is going exceptionally well. In the matter of tanks we have reliable industries, with wide backgrounds of manufacturing experience, undertaking an operation with which they are totally unfamiliar; with which, as a matter of fact, everyone in this country is totally unfamiliar. The main contractor for the infantry tanks is the Angus shops of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and we have drawn freely on the best mechanical talent of that company. We have other first-class manufacturing shops working with them in the manufacturing of components, and we are going to get tank production shortly. Just when that will be it is hard to say. They are well ahead in regard to components, but as yet they have not delivered a finished tank, nor were they expected to do so until next month.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If the
minister will allow me, do they undertake to make the complete tanks, or just parts?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The tanks of which I am
speaking are being made completely in Can-

War Appropriation Bill
ada except the engines and transmissions. We were able to buy the engines and transmissions from stock in the United States under conditions which made it undesirable to establish production in this country for the quantities we would be likely to buy.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I agree
with that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are making armour plate,
and I may say that in this manufacture an immense amount of research has been undertaken. We were not able simply to go out and order armour plate as we would order any other kind of steel; we had to develop a process for annealing it, and we had many failures before we finally arrived at a successful product. To-day, however, we are able to manufacture in Canada all the armour plate that will be used in our tank programme.
Then we come to the cruiser tanks, which are a joint design by the British and United States governments, and in which our own designing staff also has had a hand. In connection with this work we were aware of the difficulty in obtaining complete plans for the manufacture of our infantry tanks. _ Over twelve hundred drawings are involved in the manufacture of the infantry tanks, and we had great difficulty in assembling them all. When finally we had assembled all the drawings there seemed to be, we found a good many missing links which had to be supplied by the designing staff of the Angus shops. We decided to profit by that experience, and in the case of the cruiser tanks we made arrangements for design and supervision by the principal contractor for those tanks in the United States, the American Car and Foundry company. This company has taken a very substantial part in preparing detailed drawings for all tank production, and we are paying a small fee to the company for special attention to Canadian production, particularly to make sure that we get the plans as quickly as they are furnished to anyone else. I may tell hon. members that as yet we have not all the drawings for the cruiser tank, and neither has anyone else. This design was talked about six months ago and pretty well decided upon; and I say this in order to draw attention to the length of time it requires to develop complete plans for a piece of military equipment such as a tank. However, work is proceeding. That production in Canada is in the hands of our best contractors, and I believe we will produce cruiser tanks as soon as and as efficiently as any other manufacturer.
A great deal has been said in the newspapers and in this house with regard to a report by Mr. H. R. MacMillan, head of the war-time
requirements board, on the aeroplane industry. Mr. MacMillan and his board were asked to make a survey of all production in Canada, particularly for the use of the Minister of Finance in preparing the bill now under consideration, and for the information of the war cabinet of the government, as to the state of production in this country as viewed by that board. Mr. MacMillan obtained the assistance of Mr. Harry Carmichael, whom he brought from General Motors for that purpose. Mr. Carmichael obtained the services of Mr. Breech, vice-president of General Motors of the United States in charge of aeroplane production. I hold that report in my hand. It is a bulky document. I would have no particular objection to reading it all, with the exception of the section on guns, which I am sorry to say contains confidential information which I am not at liberty to give to the committee, since it is information with regard to types. I would be prepared, however, to place the complete report in the hands of the committee which will sit in camera to discuss matters of this kind.


Richard Burpee Hanson: With the reservation to which the minister has alluded, will he say whether copies of that report will be made available to members of this house? If he tells us that the part relating to guns is confidential and cannot be produced, certainly I would back him up in that position, but are we entitled to see the other part of the report and could it be printed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know of no reason why the report, except for the section on guns, should not be published in the Votes and Proceedings. Probably I will hear from the service branches about this, since they are perhaps more closely associated than I am with the confidential side of it, but I will take one more look at the report and perhaps consult them. It could be published with the possible deletion of a few figures they may consider confidential.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the MacMillan
report include the Breech report?


Clarence Decatur Howe: So far as I can find out, Mr. Breech never made any report other than a verbal one. He consulted with Mr. MacMillan and Mr. Carmichael. I asked Mr. Carmichael if he had a written report and he told me he had not seen it. Mr. MacMillan had not seen it, and I have not seen it. I cannot say anything more than that, but I am sure that there is no report.


John George Diefenbaker: Has the minister not seen a letter from Mr. Breech to Mr. Sloan, president of General Motors? My information is that copies are in the possession of one or more of the ministers.
War Appropriation Bill


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can assure my hon. friend that a copy is not in my possession. I have never seen such a letter. If there is such a letter I would be very glad to have someone show me a copy. I have never seen any such copy. Perhaps my hon. friend would say where he gets his information because I shall ask Mr. Sloan.
Mr. DIEFENBAKER,: The stock answer would be, " it is not in the public interest."


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not know anything about this matter, but there is no reason why we should not try to ascertain the facts. If there is such a letter, that seems to be a perfectly proper proposition.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member said that there was a copy.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He asked the minister if he had heard that there was.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should like to refer to a well known rule of the house, that an hon. member has no right to refer to a communication unless he is prepared to table such communication. The hon. member has referred to a communication and he should table it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He did not say that he had such a letter, he asked the minister if there was such a letter.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: Innuendoes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: You can make your own interpretation of it.


Ernest Lapointe: Anything by insinuation.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not know of any one more capable than the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) at that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This report is dated January 27, 1940. I call the attention of hon. members to the fact that it was prepared while I was away from Canada. I had no knowledge that the report was to be prepared and I had no hand in its preparation. A copy was given to me at the same time as a copy was given to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley), and I have no information to report other than that. There is no hand of mine in this report. I shall read the aircraft section, which starts at page 10:
Aircraft. Anticipated production for Canadian account of various types is as follows:
(a)	Anson's. Production might not start until after^ July, 1941, and might reach only 200 to 300 in 1941, but if carefully reorganized at several key points and if time lost by failure of sub-contractors can be recaptured, 1941 production might be doubled and production January to March, 1942, might be 300 to 400, or a total of 800 to 900 by March 31, 1942.
[Mr. Diefenbaker.)
I may say that I consulted with Mr. MacMillan as to what key points he had in mind. There has been considerable reorganization, and we have a good deal of hope that we shall be able to pick up some of what he calls "lost time" in that connection.
Bolingbroke. Apparently production difficulties have been surmounted, and, unless unforeseen stoppage arises in supplies or components, contract will be completed by December 31, 1941.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What was that contract? What type of plane and how
many?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Bolingbroke bomber. I shall give the figures later on because I intend to go fully into production.
Noorduyn. Manufacturing technique the furthest advanced of any Canadian plant. Unless held up by non-receipt of ordered materials or components will complete 210 Harvards by March 31, 1942, 56 Norsemen by September 30, 1941.
Vickers. It seems well in hand and subject to causes beyond their control will complete their contracts January 31, 1942.
Boeing aircraft. Plant building will be finished March, 1941. They should complete 14 amphibians by March 31, 1942.
National Steel Car. Lysanders on order for Canada should be finished March 31, 1942.
Fleet. Trainer production by this company is on a smooth running production basis and should finish-404 fleet 16B by March 31, 1941, 200 Fleet 60 by September 30, 1941.
De Havilland. Trainer production here also on smooth running production basis. Their order should be completed-554 Tiger Moths by September 30, 1941, and 135 Menasco Moths by June 30, 1941.
Now come details of the orders which we have placed on behalf of the British government:
Canadian Car. Manufacturing difficulties have been surmounted. If delays arise they are likely to be due to British causes, changes in design, delay in receipt of necessary goods or drawings. Production of 600 Hurricanes is expected to be completed by July 31. 1941.
Canadian Associated Aircraft. Delays have been numerous due to new designs, non-receipt of essentials from Britain and divided management. If no more delays, 160 Hampdens should be completed by March 31, 1942.
I may say that this was the first company in Canada to undertake war orders in substantial volume. It is a company which was formed by the trade itself and is controlled directly from Great Britain. The general manager was brought to Canada from Great Britain. Up to this time the Canadian government has had no hand in the operations of this company. It is rather interesting to note that with one or two exceptions the companies making up Associated Aircraft are those to which my hon. friend said the contracts should be given if handed over to the trade.

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James Layton Ralston: The company was formed two years ago.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall give a history of the company presently.
National Steel Car. Manufacturing difficulties have been overcome. The order for 116 Lysanders should be completed by December 31, 1940.	.
The potential aircraft manufacturing capacity should be considered from various aspects:
(a)	Wages are at the present time on the average lower than in the United States of America.
(b)	Efficiency is considerably less than in the United States on large machines, such as bombers, and is somewhere near the United States on smaller planes, such as primary trainers. This is due to newer industry on small volume production.
(c)	After the joint air training scheme and the Royal Canadian Air Force are stocked up, say the middle of 1941, the annual Canadian demand will drop to something like: primary trainers, 150; twin engine, 150; single engine trainers, 150; fighters (all types), 300 or less.
The Canadian aircraft building industry as at the present constituted far exceeded this market and the numerous existing units cannot live on the above prospective Canadian market.
(d)	Canadian aircraft producing companies are naturally behind the United States of America companies in engineering and plant layout and management. The situation is analogous to the early days of the Canadian motor car industry and to other industries in Canada, whose domestic market is much smaller than the United States domestic market.
The new aircraft engineering ideas, the new production ideas are coming from the United States.
(e)	The Bolingbroke bomber is consuming 60,000 man hours. Fairchild hope to get it under 40,000 man hours. A bomber, 50 per cent bigger, is budgeted at 20,000 man hours in the United States, and expectation is 16,000 man hours.
(f)	The situation therefore is:	Canada
already has surplus aircraft production capacity but requires some planning to arrange to use it economically.
H. R. MacMillan,
Chairman.
That is everything in the report relating to aircraft. My hon. friend has put out a press release saying he understands that the MacMillan report recommends this and recommends that. The Financial Post is buying space in other newspapers to say that the MacMillan report recommends this and recommends that, and there has been a stack of editorials all across Canada stating that the MacMillan report recommends this and recommends that. Hon. gentlemen now have the MacMillan report. I am going to dwell on that aspect at more length presently.
I promised hon. members a complete report, and I will run over the various companies in order to give the position.
The Boeing Aircraft of Canada have had since the war programme started-


John Ritchie MacNicol: Would the minister give the location of the company in each instance?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. Boeing Aircraft of
Canada, Limited, is at Vancouver, B.C. Since the war started, they have had orders totalling $9,276,000. They have delivered aircraft to a value of $2,054,000, and they have orders outstanding totalling $7,222,000.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister is giving the information in terms of dollars and cents, but not the units.


Clarence Decatur Howe: How would you like to have it?


Richard Burpee Hanson: The units
delivered.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The first contract was for
eleven Blackburn Sharks, built for the Canadian government. That contract has been completed. The eleven Sharks have been delivered. On March 14, 1938, they got a further order for six Sharks. That order has been completed. That makes seventeen. On August 13, 1940, they were given a contract for the partial manufacture and complete assembly of fifty-five P.B.Y. amphibian flying boats at an estimated cost of $4,400,000. The P.B.Y. amphibian is one of the newest and largest types of war machines in use, and I can say on the basis of a special report made by an expert very recently that Boeing are well up to the production schedule which they undertook to carry out.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is the
minister able to tell us how many units under this contract have been delivered? If he cannot, it is all right.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can tell you-none. The
reason is that it takes anywhere up to eighteen months to get into production of that type of aircraft.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Quite so.


Clarence Decatur Howe: At the time the original contract was placed, the number of employees at Boeing was sixty-one, and the number at present employed is 825.
In addition to the contracts for complete planes, Boeing has been doing a great deal of work on components. It has been building spares, wings and ailerons, for the Anson programme, and that work is well ahead.
Canadian Associated Aircraft. This is a purely British company and we will assume that it had expert management-as contrasted with the indifferent management by the Department of Munitions and Supply. The original contract was for eighty Hampden planes. On November 16, 1938, two and a half years ago, the progress schedule was two
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aeroplanes on December 31, 1939; four, January 1, 1940; and four a month down to March, 1940; then six in March, and six a month up to August, 1940, in which month production was to step up to eight a month.
On July 18, 1940, a revised schedule for the delivery of Hampden aircraft was made as follows: A schedule was prepared based on flight testing, because the contractor had no . control over shipping dates. That is, they put out a new schedule by which they would flight test their planes. The first delivery was set back to July, 1940; one in July, two in August, three in September, four in October, five in November, and eight in December- a much more modest schedule.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Was there
a change in design?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Changes in design are being made in connection with every aircraft. That schedule was stepped up to eleven in January, 1941; fourteen in February, and fifteen in March.
On August 27, 1940, this company was given an order for another eighty planes of the same type, so its orders to date are for 160 planes. There is no use in giving very much more of this. Up to date this company has shipped to England eight aeroplanes, and I think they have two more flight tested and ready to deliver.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is a British contract?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a British-owned company and this is a British contract. I once again say that the owners of the company in Canada are the aircraft men who thought that we should disband Federal Aircraft and put it in their hands.
Canada Car and Foundry company are, I think, the leading aircraft builders in Canada at the moment. They have had, up to this time, contracts of a value of $29,574,000. They have delivered to a value of $5,715,000, and there is outstanding $23,859,000 worth.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How many of these were for the Canadian government and how many for the British government?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All these orders were placed by the Canadian government. Some of these planes were ordered for Canadian account, but when Britain was having difficulties in obtaining sufficient planes we turned our order over to Britain. The output of the plant has all gone to Britain although the early orders were placed for the account of Canada and for use in Canada. To date I think all the planes have gone forward to Britain.


Mr. JACKMAN:: Were they engined in Canada or sent over to be engined in Britain?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They use an engine not made on this continent, and they were sent over to Britain without engines.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Did the contract call for a unit price?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; a target price.


George Hugh Castleden: What is the basis of the contract for these planes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would prefer to come to that later. I have a long way to go yet and the afternoon is wearing on, but I shall be glad to lay the contract on the table. Substantial deliveries have been made under this contract. I think they are delivering at this time at the rate of between twelve and fifteen aeroplanes a week, or better than two a day, which is pretty well up to schedule.
Canadian Vickers Limited. This firm have had contracts of $5,989,000; they delivered planes to the value of $2,664,000, and they have outstanding orders in the amount of $3,253,000. The original contract was for four Deltas, and those four were duly delivered. They have got a contract for two Stranraer boats.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If I might interject, it would be more helpful to the committee if they knew in each case, assuming the information is available for the public, what aeroplanes the minister is referring to. For instance, Canada Car and Foundry company; is the plane a Hurricane, or what?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A Hawker-Hurricane, yes; and the other is a Northrop Delta. The first contract was for four of those, which were duly delivered. The second contract was for two Stranraer flying boats, which have been delivered. There was another contract for four Deltas, which were duly delivered; also a contract for three Stranraer flying boats, and another for nine Deltas, all of which were delivered. Next, a contract for six Stranraer boats, three of which have been delivered. A contract for another twelve Stranraer boats, which are not delivered; and since then a contract for another eighteen Stranraer boats.
The de Havilland Aircraft Company of Canada, Limited, have had contracts of $8,068,000. They have delivered to this time finished planes in the amount of $2,028,000, and have outstanding $6,040,000. All these planes are Tiger Moths, and the company is wfell ahead of schedule. I cannot state, without doing some addition, exactly how many they have delivered, but substantially the number is about 350 to 400, and they have a large number to deliver.

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Fairchild, manufacturing the Bristol Boling-broke, have contracts totalling $12,150,000, on which they have delivered in the amount of $2,692,000. They have further deliveries to make of $9,457,000. I might add that this company have been given an open order for planes up to the end of 1942, with the understanding that they will advise us six months ahead when additional firm orders are required, and that they will be authorized to buy equipment at that time. To date, they have delivered nineteen aircraft, and it is stated in this telegram, February 24th, aircraft to be delivered on March 1st, and at the rate of fifteen per month thereafter. That, I believe, is the latest information on delivery from that plant-fifteen per month.
Fleet company had orders in the amount of $11,165,000. They have delivered to the amount of $3,292,000 and have outstanding orders of $7,872,000. They are making two types of planes. One is the Fleet primary trainer, "Fleet Finch" as it is called, and deliveries of that are substantially up to date. The order, I believe, was for 404, and practically all have been delivered. Fleet undertook some time last June to build an advanced trainer called the Fleet 60. The trainer at that time had been fully designed and fully test flown, and delivery was to be made beginning November, 1940. The first plane is yet to be delivered, but I am told that the manufacturing is well in hand and that deliveries will start early in March. But there is a case in point, where a firm which started with a plane that had been designed and test flown was three months late in its initial delivery. I may say that that is our experience, that we have never had an initial delivery at the time that was promised by the industry or by the time we thought we reasonably could expect to have it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister wants to be fair to these industries, I suppose. In the case of delays such as that, would he indicate whether there were changes in design, difficulties in getting the drawings of the new designs?-because I am told that in most cases that has been the cause of the delay.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In this case it was a plane designed by the Fleet Company of Canada itself, and everything has been under the control of the Fleet company. I know of no such cause of delay in this case. But of course, on planes of British design, where the designs have come from England, there have been endless delays and great trouble on that account.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That was one of the causes of the delay with regard to the Avro Anson?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, it has been a very serious cause. I will discuss that one separately; it has had sufficient publicity to deserve it.
National Steel Car has orders up to the present time of $19,868,000. They have delivered up to date $3,965,000, and have orders outstanding of $15,902,000.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: That includes the British orders?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. These are largely Canadian orders. There is a British order in there of 150 Lysanders.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: There is a pre-war order,
I take it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: AVould the minister let us know exactly what he means when he says that "planes" or "aircraft" are delivered? Does he mean the fuselages with the wings? In some cases orders would also include the engine and the instrument board and other accessories which are vital to it. Could he be more exact in the terminology?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I mean by "aircraft" delivered that they are delivered as they are ordered to be delivered. If they are ordered with engines they are delivered with engines; if they are ordered without engines they are delivered without engines. Generally speaking, if a plane is built for British account it is built without the engine. Obviously if it uses a British engine it would be foolish to ship the British engine over to this side for installation and then back to England. If it is ordered for Canadian delivery, of course it is delivered with the engine. That is also true of the training craft.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: On page 922 of
Hansard the minister stated "The first plane has been, flown but it has not been delivered." Would the minister please advise the committee just what parts of the plane were made in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If the hon. member will permit me, I will give complete information on that when I come to the Avro Anson.
One of the attacks which has been frequently made on the department is that National Steel Car corporation cannot work to capacity because it has no orders. They say National Steel Car are using only half the plant, and they feel badly about it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Who made that charge? I never did.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It has not been made in this house but it has been made in editorial comment and in articles, particularly in the Financial Post, that only half the capacity of the National Steel Car plant was being used.
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Harry Rutherford Jackman: I presume the minister will tell us of the difficulties in some of these plants. I hear rumours that in the early days National Steel Car had to work under more severe labour regulations than the other aircraft plants. Is it the minister's intention to discuss these complaints now or later?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to answer all the questions I can, but it is news to me that the labour conditions in that plant are different from the conditions in others. I am sure it is not true.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I am not saying now; but in the early stages the limitation of hours was greater in the National Steel Car plant than in other plants, with the result that National Steel Car lost a great many of their skilled workers to the other aircraft companies.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should like to carry on without interruptions, if I may. We are in committee and questions can be answered later.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I appreciate the minister's desire to proceed without interruption, and I will not be a sinner in this respect. The charge made with respect to the National Steel Car and others was not confined entirely to the Financial Post. Does not the same thing appear in the Winnipeg Free Press ?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, let us name them all.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should be glad to name them all if I knew them all, but they come so thick and fast and I have not my catalogue with me.


Richard Burpee Hanson: You have one catalogue with you.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Next we come to Noorduyn Aviation. This firm was started on the training programme and it is referred to in Mac-

Millan's report as very efficiently operated. I am sure it is. They have contracts for about 45 Norsemen, planes used in training and transport work, and 210 Harvard trainers. That is a standard single engine advanced trainer.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is an intermediate trainer.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is an advanced trainer.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They call it an intermediate trainer.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps so, but it is supposed to be the most advanced single engine trainer. We call it advanced, but that does not matter. Here again we have a company that has been working very efficiently since their first contract. The first Harvard contract is dated December, 1940, but the actual arrangements were made in May, 1940. It is the first of the advanced trainer contracts and they expect to be in production on Harvards by November. The first Harvard has been delivered in the last few weeks.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That contract was not given until after June.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, it was before June. We always anticipated Canadian production of a certain number of Harvards. We bought some in the United States and some here for British account.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I understand they were trying to get contracts for two years.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They got their first real chance on Harvard production. They were chosen as exclusive contractor for Harvards and they have an efficient operation. They are coming into production and we expect that they will do well.
That covers the manufacturing field. I shall be glad to answer questions at another time, but just now I wish to discuss the much maligned Anson programme, the history of which is this. As hon. members know, it was never contemplated, when the air training programme was drawn up, that Canada would provide any advanced trainer aeroplanes. The expense of the plan was to be borne largely by Canada, with some help from Australia and New Zealand, and the British contribution was to consist in the furnishing of all aircraft needed in training, with the exception of primary trainers

that is, the Fleet Finch and the de Havilland Moth. Therefore in the early stages no plans had been made for providing any intermediate or advanced aircraft in Canada. Britain specified

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that the payment would be in kind and that such aircraft would be shipped to Canada, the only exception being in the case of the Harvard trainer. Britain had no exact equivalent of that trainer and therefore purchased some 600 aeroplanes in the United States for shipment to Canada to fulfil their obligation, arranging for Canadian production of 210 planes of the same type in Canada. However, Canada's responsibility in the matter of planes wTas confined entirely to Fleet Finch primary trainers and de Havilland Moth primary trainers. Orders were duly placed for these trainers and they have come forward on schedule. These trainers were well within the [DOT]capabilities of these two firms and there has been no delay in delivery.
After the fall of France the situation changed entirely. We were notified out of the blue that for two months at least Britain could not ship any trainer planes to Canada and that at the end of two months she would consider whether it would then be possible to ship trainer planes to this country. That threw upon the department of munitions the responsibility for suddenly purchasing planes sufficient to carry on the work of the joint air training plan. The first step was to protect ourselves on engines. I went to the United States immediately, the day after the cable arrived, and I was able to purchase for Canada complete production of one United States engine factory, which undertook to enlarge its facilities to produce engines to meet the schedule that we had to provide in order to pick up the air training plan and safeguard against complete failure. These engines are being delivered on schedule. They are about even on schedule now, and that purchase really did more to save the situation than anything done at that time.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is the
Jacobs engine?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. We have under contract about 5,000 of these and every one will be required. Then as a temporary measure we bought some second-hand twin-engine planes in the United States. We bought anything we could buy that was serviceable, and we tried to buy it at a fair price and bring it into Canada, to tide over the immediate -situation.
We then began looking to the long range situation. We were able to arrange production for a certain number of aeroplanes in the United States to tide us over until we could bring in Canadian production. We looked at the twin-engine trainer situation and decided that we could not do better than to use the Anson plane as a twin-engine trainer, with the understanding that it must be redesigned
to fit Canadian construction methods if we hoped to get any production whatever, and having in mind the fact that the air force asked for certain modifications of the plane before it was produced in Canada.
At the same time, as I have said, we arranged for the production of the Fleet 60, which was of Canadian design, which had been test flown in Canada at that time, and which we hoped to have in production in November. We also did what we could in Canada to step up production of the Harvard plane, and to advance delivery of the first planes on that order. We provided for extension of the plant, and other facilities which we hoped would have that effect.
Our main task, however, was to provide 1,500 Anson trainers, and provide them in time, so that the temporary situation we had worked out in connection with the delivery of United States planes would bridge the gap, and as a result we would have no break in the air training programme. At that time we were faced with the fact that the aircraft industry in Canada, a much smaller industry than it is to-day, were fully engaged with pressing work of their own. De Havilland at that time was going full-out in the production of Moth planes, which were badly needed. Fleet was going full-out in the production of primary trainers. Both these plane companies were working on the largest orders in their history. Other plants were not at that time organized to a point where we could go to them and say, "We want you to arrange for the quick production of 1,500 Avro-Anson planes.
We studied the situation very carefully at that time. Mr. Sanderson was then in charge of aircraft production for the Department of Munitions and Supply, and Mr. Bell had just been brought into the department. After very careful examination, and on their recommendation we decided that the only practical way of organizing that huge production in Canada was to form a wholly government-owned company which would take the responsibility for the redesign of the aircraft, which would! apportion construction of the planes among the industry-going outside the usual aircraft companies, because they at that time were loaded up-and which could break new ground in bringing in additional capacity in the industry to produce the planes.
The result was that a company with headquarters at Montreal was formed. The first president was Mr. Ralph Bell. Associated with him as directors were Sydney Dawes, president and managing director of the Atlas Construction Company; Blair Gordon, managing director of Dominion Textiles Company and other companies; Russell Smith, secretary-
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treasurer of Canadian Industries Limited; Miller Hyde, of the firm of MacDougall, MacFarlane, lawyers; Allen Aiken, director of Price Brothers, with the president of the Aircraft Construction Association, itself, as general manager.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the name of
the company about which the minister is speaking?


Richard Burpee Hanson: Federal Aircraft.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have a very bad memory for names. I should remember that man's name, because I have had enough dealings with him.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If the
minister cannot remember, it is all right.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am talking about Federal Aircraft.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The first general manager of Federal Aircraft.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Organization proceeded. It was soon obvious that Mr. Bell could not act as president of the Federal company in Montreal, and as director of aircraft production in Ottawa. With that in mind, I offered him a choice of one position or the other, and he chose to stay on as director general of aircraft production in Ottawa. His place in Federal Aircraft was filled by Mr. Ray Lawson of London, who had an excellent record in similar types of manufacturing.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What types of manufacturing? He was a printer, a lithographer; that is what he was.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps so.


John Ritchie MacNicol: London, England, or
London, Ontario?


Clarence Decatur Howe: He was director of an imposing list of manufacturing companies. In fact I notice my hon. friend opposite (Mr. Rowe) chose him as a director of his company at the head of the lakes. He is also a director of the Royal bank. I assume the hon. member (Mr. Rowe) chose him for his manufacturing ability.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is a good recommendation, but it does not say he could make aircraft.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps not; but none of these men could make aircraft, and there were very few men in Canada who could.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think that is correct.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is what one has to contend with when dealing with a mushroom industry.


Mr. ROWE (Dufferin-Simcoe):: An efficient and reputable character.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I now remember that the name of the first general manager was Mr. R. J. Moffett. The first promise of delivery we obtained from this company was given in the middle of November. I might say that the company was formed on July 19, 1940.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before the minister proceeds, would he please make it clear that Federal Aircraft Limited, itself, was not a manufacturing company?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will explain that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They were not to make planes at all.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will explain that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They were to help forward the effort, and to supply certain materials and parts-very important parts. Let us have that whole picture so that the public will know it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am coming to that, but I am trying to get the company formed, first.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is nothing to laugh at.


Clarence Decatur Howe: According to my notes, the company -was formed on July 19, 1940. The first promise of delivery-and I would ask hon. members to remember this-was made in the middle of November, 1940. I was pressing for some indication as to when we could expect deliveries to begin. At that time Federal advised the minister, "The first Anson will fly in March, and substantial production by June or July."


Richard Burpee Hanson: Would the minister say there is a contract between the company and the department?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Let us have a consecutive statement.


The CHAIRMAN:: I would point out to the committee that the minister has the floor and has already requested that there be no interruptions. While he has the floor, no one may interrupt him without his permission.


Richard Burpee Hanson: All right.


Thomas Vien: The minister has requested that he be allowed to make his statement.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Very well.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This was a wholly owned government company. Its purpose was to take

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from the government the responsibility of placing orders for aircraft production, and placing orders for assembly. In other words, it was just to mobilize the industry to produce Anson aircraft planes. That is the intention of it, although its first job was to redesign the Anson plane.
I think its first and most serious mistake was that the magnitude of that job was underestimated. It was only in the later period when that was discovered, and when the general managership was put in other hands, that we finally got the design to a place where the subcontractors could go full-out on certain parts of the operation.
My hon. friend said this company was not set up to manufacture aeroplanes. That is true, but strong representations were made to me by the president and his board of directors, on the recommendation and I think on the insistence of the then general manager, that Federal should be permitted to run a small manufacturing operation of its own in the city of Montreal in connection with the operations of the company. The reasons advanced to me were that in aircraft design it was necessary to be able to follow the designing work with the actual manufacture, and I was advised that this could not be done as well in another plant. I was also advised that it was desirable to have the company itself build its first flying mock-up, as it is called, of the final craft, complete with engine and propellor, so that its performance could be tested. I agreed to that somewhat reluctantly, because I was very anxious that the government itself should keep away from manufacturing problems. I brought the entire board of directors to Ottawa at the time and tried to convince them that they could accomplish the desired results in another way. However, they were insistent, and to-day they have a small manufacturing operation of their own, building Anson fuselages in Montreal. This small operation is carried on in rented premises and is not important in regard to the entire programme.
The company has carried on, and a great number of subcontracts have been awarded. Direct subcontracts were let to Boeing of Vancouver, MacDonald Brothers of Winnipeg, Canada Car and Foundry of Montreal and Amherst, Cockshutt Plow of Brantford, Massey Harris of Toronto, de Havilland of Toronto, and Ottawa Car and Aircraft of Ottawa. Arising out of these contracts there is a vast list of component manufacturers, as naturally there always are in the aircraft industry. I have here perhaps twenty or thirty closely typed sheets of names of manufacturers producing components.
The work taken on by this company was of great magnitude. I think it is fair comment to say that in the early stages the directors were a bit at sea. They had to rely pretty well on Mr. Moffett, the general manager, who, as I have said, was head of the aircraft industry at that time, and whom I had always heard mentioned as the number one aeroplane designer in Canada. He had been formerly employed by Vickers, and I think was responsible for bringing Vickers into the manufacture of the Stranraer flying boats and the Delta. I do not wish to cast any aspersions or in any way reflect on Mr. Moffett's work, because I know he gave the job every ounce of energy he possessed; but it turned out, as I think Mr. Moffett would agree, as it often does, that while he was a first class designer he was not a good executive, and perhaps the directors did not realize this as soon as they should. However, he was released and the change was made. The directors went to the Canadian Pacific Railway and secured the full-time services of its chief mechanical engineer, Mr. Newman. I know little about Mr. Newman's designing ability but I will say that he is one of the best executives I have seen in action since I have been connected with this particular work. Mr. Newman has pulled this affair together in what I consider a marvellous way, and to-day I believe the Anson programme is well on its way.
As I have said, both within and without this house people have blamed the non-delivery of Ansons for the fact that our air training programme is somewhat short of twin-engine trainers. In our most optimistic moments we never expected that we would get any substantial production of Avro-Anson planes until March; and in our calculations endeavouring to cover the field we had never dreamed that we would get Canadian-built Avro-Ansons until that time. The first promise of the company, made as I say in November, after they had a chance to look over the job, was that they would fly a plane in March and make substantial deliveries in June and July. I have every reason to believe that this promise will be carried out. That was also Mr. MacMillan's view. He said it might be a little later than July, but that if we took a few steps which he recommended they should do better than that. Those steps have been taken, and I think we will do much better; but there again that is only my own statement. I do not wish to bind the company to anything more than the promise they made in November, 1940, that there would be substantial production of Avro-Ansons in June and July. A Canadian built Avro-Anson has flown, with a Jacobs engine and a Canadian-built propellor.
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Richard Burpee Hanson: That was just a plane assembled here, was it not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There were certain English components in it; it was part English and part Canadian. The flight was made to try out certain components, particularly the Jacobs engine and the Canadian propellor. The flight was eminently satisfactory, and we have no doubt that this programme will pull itself together and that we will get aeroplanes about according to our expectations of last November.
We should place responsibility where responsibility is due. At various stages of our experience with aircraft we thought we knew the demand and made our plans accordingly. When the air training agreement was entered into in December, 1939, we thought we knew the requirements of Canadian production in connection with that programme, and we proceeded to contract for them. In June we had new obligations placed upon us, and we thought we understood the extent of those new obligations. We thought then we had the schedule under which the various schools would open, and we thought we knew when planes would be required from this department. Well, as hon. gentlemen know, due to the energetic prosecution of that plan by my colleague the Minister of National Defence for Air the programme has been greatly speeded up; new schools have been brought into operation six months ahead of schedule. This has meant, of course, that they require planes six months sooner than we had expected, and I may admit that we have had our troubles in keeping up with that advanced schedule. We have never complained. I hope I shall always be the last to attempt to slow down any of my colleagues in getting on with this war. I never say it cannot be done; I always say, "We will give it a try," and that was what I said to my colleague when he consulted me about speeding up his scheme. I said, "We will do our best. I do not think it will be too bad. We may not give you all the planes, but I think we can keep you going," and I think we have done that up to this time.
A short time ago the minister for air said he was on the ragged edge for twin engine trainers. So he is, but it will not be long until we will have Canadian production in ample volume, so that will be a temporary condition. I suppose for the next three or four months he will be rather short of twin engine trainers. I do not think he will ever be very short of single engine trainers, and if it is necessary to do so it is not a serious matter temporarily to change over some of the schools from twin engine trainers to single engine trainers. Nevertheless, that condition

exists. I am the first to admit it, but I should like hon. members to be fair enough to see that the problem has changed from time to time, as war problems always do and always will. War is an abnormal condition; the tide of war changes from day to day, and our service ministers must take that into account.
There we have the Anson programme as it stands to-day. I think that is a reasonably complete statement on it. At a later stage in the committee I shall be glad to answer any specific questions. I wonder if, in the light of what I have said, my hon. friend will say that his press release is a fair statement of the position? This is an extraordinary statement which appeared in the Montreal Star and which I understand is a reprint of the press release of the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson). I do not know on just what date it appeared, but it was the day following the statement in the house. The report reads:
At the request of the minister on or about the 7th of January the manufacturers submitted to the acting minister an unanimous recommendation as to what should be done. I have not been able to get a copy of this report, but I understand it urged:
The four recommendations are then set out. Then the exact wording of the letter is quoted. This indicates that my hon. friend did not prepare this statement himself.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is no quotation of my remark.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It urged:
1.	That Federal Aircraft, Limited, be dissolved;
2.	That de Havilland Aircraft of Canada be asked to manage or administer, for the Department of Munitions and Supply, the Avro-Anson project, taking over the personnel, materials, records, etc., of Federal Aircraft;
3.	That de Havilland Aircraft assume responsibility for engineering and procurement of materials;
4.	That the Department of Munitions and Supply take over the contractual and financial obligations and the financial functions of Federal Aircraft.
Let me read the letter to see if my hon. friend sees any difference.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I believe the minister wants to be fair. I do not see any sign that I was quoting Horn an original copy, and I did not do it. What I said was this:
At the request of the minister, on or about the 7th of January, the manufacturers submitted to the acting minister an unanimous recommendation as to what should be done. I have not been able to get a copy of this report, but I understand that it urged:
I then epitomized them.

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Clarence Decatur Howe: This is what the letter said. We will see how much my hon. friend epitomized them. The letter reads:
Following the request of the Acting Minister of Munitions and Supply for the opinion of the undersigned as to how the Anson project can be expedited, the following unanimous recommendations are submitted:
1.	Federal Aircraft Limited to be dissolved;
2.	de Havilland to be asked to manage (or administer) _ for the department, the Anson project, taking over the personnel, material, records, et cetera, of Federal Aircraft Limited forthwith;
3.	de Havilland to assume responsibility for engineering and procurement of material;
4.	These functions of de Havilland not to include the taking over of Federal Aircraft Limited's financial obligations (other than for material) or financial functions or contractual obligations; all of which the department can handle best.
5.	Contracts for components, etc., made henceforward to be with the department.
I do not see any difference in the language.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Number five is not in mine, and the others are exactly the same.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend can epitomize by leaving out number five.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I did not have it in.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know my hon. friend did not have it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am content to stand on my statement. I should like to have the letter produced.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I propose to table all three letters.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has the minister the report or statement which was presented to the acting minister?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have just tabled it.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And which is quoted in the January 7 issue of the Financial Post. Does the minister say that the statement of January 7 is wrong?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I say that it is absolutely correct, word for word. I continue with the report from the Montreal Star:
I understand the matter was given attention by the chairman of the war-time requirements board, and a leading executive in aircraft production in the United States was asked to come to Canada to investigate the situation and to give his advice, and I am informed that his views were in agreement with those of the Canadian manufacturers and confirmed the hopelessness of the Federal Aircraft situation in its present state, and that, on the basis of this report, the chairman of the board recommended to the government that Federal Aircraft be abolished.
My hon. friend admits that that is a very slender foundation for that, apart from the Financial Post.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No, I have the best authority for that. I have it from one of the executives.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Who was it?


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is my business. I am not going to divulge his name.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does my hon. friend mean one of the three men who have been named, Mr. MacMillan, Mr. Carmichael or Mr. Breech?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I did not name anyone.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Surely I am entitled to that information. He is an executive of what?


Richard Burpee Hanson: One of the executives of the aeroplane manufacturers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: He would not know,
unfortunately.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He would if he talked to these people.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend got it in
a rather devious way, at least.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I object
to that; I got it in a perfectly honourable way.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend got it second or third hand at least.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I could not see Mr. MacMillan. If he had been here I would have seen him.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does my hon. friend think he would have told him?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think he would have been frank and honourable with me.


Clarence Decatur Howe: From the inception of the
Department of Munitions and Supply the executives and employees of that department have taken an oath of secrecy that they will not divulge the business of the department to others. I hope and believe that Mr. MacMillan would not have violated his oath of secrecy. The report goes on to say:
He went on_ to make a forecast of production which is considered by aircraft manufacturers to be a little short of fantastic.
The forecast that I made was the forecast given me in November and it was confirmed by Mr. MacMillan in his report, to which reference is made. The firms were requested by me to answer three questions:
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1.	Will the taking of the steps you recommended, in your opinion, accelerate the production of Ansons in Canada, and, if so, to what extent ?	. .
2.	On what facts do you base your opinions in this regard?
3.	What guarantee can you and your group give as to a date when substantial deliveries of Anson planes will be made, provided your recommendations are adopted?
That is true. That is exactly the letter I wrote. Then my hon. friend was advised of the joint reply.
I wonder if it is good business to publish reports of that kind based upon that type of information? What has been the effect of the report? It has seriously disturbed public opinion across Canada in connection with the whole aircraft industry. Statements have been made that our aircraft industry is bogged down, that we are making no contribution whatever. I do not think those reports are justified. What effect has it had upon the seven gentlemen who are giving their time without recompense as president and directors of Federal Aircraft Limited? What effect has it had upon Mr. Newman, who left his job with the Canadian Pacific Railway to give his full time to this work as general manager? These gentlemen tell me that they find it very difficult to hold their staff together. The members of the staff were quite certain that they -would soon be out of a job and a good many resignations were handed in by key men.
What has been the effect of this upon Mr. MacMillan? Let us talk about Mr. MacMillan, since his name has been mentioned a good deal. Before he left Ottawa he remarked to me that he was being sabotaged, and I agreed with him. The story was put out that he had quarrelled with me when as a matter of fact there has been no quarrel. At any time when we were both in Ottawa Mr. MacMillan has been in my office every day since my return, and we have discussed many problems. He has made certain recommendations all of which I think have been accepted in whole or in part. He went to Vancouver to attend the marriage of his daughter and I understand he is now on his way back to Ottawa. But suppose the report had been true; suppose we had had a quarrel. Mr. MacMillan did not resign, and I am the head of the department, and as long as I have the responsibility I am going to assume the authority.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the minister allow me a question?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I will ask it later.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does anyone suggest that a senior executive can quarrel with me and still continue to -work with the department? I set the policy of the department, and if any executive does not follow it, he has no option but to resign. And what has been said puts Mr. MacMillan in the position of having quarreled with me, of having disagreed with my policies perhaps entirely, and still carrying on his work! No such thing ever happened, but from all the press statements could any other conclusion have been drawn?
Let us see what else was said. I have seen one or two typewritten copies of what purported to be intimate conversations between Mr. MacMillan and one of his friends. One of these copies went into two or three newspaper offices and finally was the foundation of an editorial in the Globe and Mail. I do not believe these conversations ever took place. The executive of a department takes an oath of secrecy about the affairs of the department. That has been done since the beginning of the war. It was made obligatory by order in council, a copy of which I have in my hand. We have forty or fifty executives of the class of Mr. MacMillan-heads of large corporations-all working anonymously in the department, all under an oath of secrecy and all carrying out their oath. What position does it put Mr. MacMillan in with his fellow executives in the department -when he is headlined in the newspapers about talking to this man and that man, and about secret memos of conversations? Does it improve his position in the department or with the people of Canada? I do not think it does. If he were the kind of man he is being represented to be I do not think any member would suggest that he should stay in the department. And I want him to stay in the department because I am sure he is not that kind of man.
I could go on and indicate other methods of sabotage that have been used on Mr. MacMillan, but I do not think it ib necessary. Anyone who reads these articles on Mr. MacMillan will agree that they do not enhance his power to be of use to the Dominion of Canada in the present circumstances.
The history of Mr. MacMillan is this. I asked him to come to Ottawa last June to take a very responsible job in the Department of Munitions. He took on the job of timber controller. Within a week or two after he took hold, we were faced with an acute situation with respect to timber and it required a good deal of organizing to produce the necessary timber. Mr. MacMillan did that job splendidly, and I have had occasion more than once, speaking in this house, to comment on the work he did as timber controller to bring about our objective.

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Later our statistics branch, which is charged with the duty of looking ahead with respect to our war production so that it can advise us of possible shortages of material, labour supply and all the problems that must be envisioned to plan our course intelligently, decided that their work should be widened by the establishment of a committee to take in every department of government which had information which they thought was necessary to arrive at their conclusions. The result was that the war-time requirements board was formed in my department, with Mr. MacMillan as chairman, reporting to myself, and comprising representatives of the Bank of Canada, the Department of Finance, the Department of Labour and the three service departments. After he accepted the chairmanship Mr. MacMillan decided that he wanted to make it a full-time job; he resigned as timber controller, and has been carrying on the work of the board ever since.
There is hardly a paper published which has not stated that Mr. MacMillan said this or said that about the work of the board. With Mr. MacMillan on that board are eight or nine responsible senior civil servants. Does anyone think it improves Mr. MacMillan's relations with his fellow members on that board when this, sort of thing gets into the newspapers before the board has had a chance to report or even to find out what the chairman is doing in certain directions? I think not. I think the job of sabotaging Mr. MacMillan has been fairly successfully done, but I hope he is able and big enough, and I think he is, to live it down and to continue to carry on the very useful work he is doing for this government and for Canada.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the minister now allow me a question?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, certainly.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does he
suggest that at any time I or any other hon. member attempted to sabotage Mr. MacMillan in any way whatsoever?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend in his newspaper statement said that he understands that Mr. MacMillan-at all events in the house my hon. friend used Mr. MacMillan's name.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, I
have, but not by the widest stretch of the imagination was there any suggestion of sabotage.


Clarence Decatur Howe: But what is the implication? The hon. member referred to a secret report that Mr. MacMillan made as chairman of the war-time requirements board to the war committee of the cabinet and told what the 11873-67
contents of the report were. Is that a reflection on Mr. MacMillan or not, that he would put in a secret report the contents of which would be on the street before we had seen it? I would say that that constitutes a reflection on Mr. MacMillan.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think so for a minute. Perhaps it is a reflection on somebody else.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The newspapers had it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They had it long before I had it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Discussing the question of sabotage, there have been vicious editorials in the papers based not on fact but on hearsay, street rumours, private conversations with somebody in the government. I want to say that every reporter in Ottawa has access to my office. I am willing to hold a press conference any day that a sufficient number of newspaper men would like to meet me. I do not think the press gallery -will accuse me of holding back information at press conferences so long as it was information that I could furnish without giving away secrets that were not mine. I always talk freely at press conferences and to reporters who ask me about specific problems. But there has grown up quite a feeling in the press that any rumour about the department of munitions is worthy of publication. The leader in that has been the Financial Post. The Financial Post, not satisfied with its own circulation, is now purchasing space in other newspapers to print statements which I think I have shown to-day to be absolutely false. It was the Financial Post that attempted to stop Bren gun manufacture in this country before the war. I have no comment to make on what the Financial Post prints in its own paper, but when it pays money to buy space in other newspapers, as I understand it is doing, to make untrue and damaging statements against the Department of Munitions and Supply, I think I am right in suggesting that that is not being done for philanthropy.
I make this charge, and I do it after careful consideration with a full knowledge of the facts of which I speak: the number one saboteur in Canada since the beginning of this war is the Financial Post of Toronto.
I have taken up a good deal of the time of the committee. I have other material here, but having spoken for about two and a half hours I think perhaps I have done my day's work. I thank hon. members for the patient hearing they have given me. Before sitting down may I say that I shall be glad to amplify any statement I have made if any hon. member would like me to do so.

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Richard Burpee Hanson: First, will the minister be good enough to table the letters to which he referred and which he promised he would table? Secondly, I should like to say this, that if the minister had been as frank in days gone by with the Canadian public as apparently he has been to-day-and I do not at the moment at all question his frankness; for I do not know the facts-I am sure that a very large part of the newspaper campaign about which he complains might have been obviated.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say to my hon. friend that the minister was in England when this campaign started-stabbing him behind his back when he was serving his country on a mission overseas.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not know when the campaign was started.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It was started when the minister was in England. The purpose was to stab him behind his back, when he was absent from the country.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Why lecture me about it? I didn't start it.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: You referred to the campaign.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Certainly I referred to the campaign. It was as a result-


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am not lecturing my hon. friend. I am stating the facts about the campaign against the minister.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The Prime Minister can make his speech later. If we are going to have the rules applied to one, let us have them applied to all. I was making what I thought was a mild observation, that if the minister had been as frank in days gone by, in respect to the question of production, as apparently he has been to-day-and I am not questioning his frankness to-day because I do not know whether he has told us the whole truth or not; time alone will tell; I am accepting his statement as it is-a great many of the things of which he has complained to-day might have been obviated. That is just a trite observation.
I do not intend, of course, to follow the minister with any degree of precision in the lengthy statement he has made. That would f>e impossible, especially for one who, like myself, has no special knowledge of the aircraft Industry. That is speaking frankly. I was pleased to see that in the opening part of his Temarks the minister enumerated certain spheres of production in his department which are functioning well. That ought to be true,
JMr. Howe.]
after eighteen months of war effort. Surely by that time, after an expenditure of hundreds of millions of dollars and the assembling in Ottawa of some of the best executives in the country, that ought to be true.
May I pause here to say that never at any time, at any place, in any connection have the members of this party, or myself, or anybody connected with us, thrown the slightest aspersion upon the dollar-a-year men and other high executives whom this ministry has brought to Ottawa. On the other hand, I have complimented the minister upon the character of some of the men he had brought into the department whom I knew, and in particular this very gentleman, Mr. Ralph P. Bell, whom he made the first president of Federal Aircraft Limited. I think I know him as well as the minister does, and I have been more than anxious that his reputation should not suffer through his connection with Federal Aircraft. I will not go any further than that. The minister knows that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. The hon. member said so in the past in the house.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, I
certainly did, and I said privately to the minister that I was very anxious that Mr. Bell should 'be given a chance to do a job.
With respect to these gentlemen from one end of Canada to the other who have left their businesses and have come to Ottawa to give their time and their war effort to the government, I have taken the same position whenever an attack has been made upon them. Frankly, there has been but little attack made upon them in this house. I am glad to note that, with one or two exceptions, all confined to followers of the ministry of the day, there has not been the slightest attack on the character, the ability, or the operations of these men. My hon. friend from Essex East nods towards the far comer. I do not recall any attack having been made upon any of these gentlemen by any hon. member in that corner.
I am glad to know that neither by word, by innuendo or by any other method has there been the slightest attack made upon any of these gentlemen by any members of our party. On the contrary, I have gone out of my way to call the attention of members of the ministry, in confidence, from time to time as the occasion arose, to attacks which have been made by members supporting the government upon some of these high executives who have come in here. We had an explosion last week. We do not need to recall it. On the order paper to-day, in the name of a government member, is a series of questions

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relating to another man who is giving his whole time to a very important matter relating to the war effort of the government. Those questions are asked by one of the Liberal members from Toronto. I do not know all the truth of the matter, but I would say this to the members of the ministry, that when you ask a man of the standing of Mr. Cottrelle to come into the service of the government, without salary, that man's reputation should be preserved and defended against attack and calumny, because he cannot answer here.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Right.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Hear, hear.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Therefore, no blame can attach to this party, at all events, in connection with attacks on the executives and others with whom the minister is surrounded. I suggest to him that to assert that there has been sabotage by any person in this part of the house is absolutely false, and I repel the suggestion if it is intended.
I am not constituting myself a defender of newspapers. Believe me, that is too big a job for me. If the minister is wise he will watch his step when he attacks the newspapers. My experience has been that no matter how just your cause may be, how strongly right may be on your side, or how pure your conscience, the newspapers will always have the last word. Therefore I think it is a work of supererogation to attack them.


William Earl Rowe: Never attack one unless you own one.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, I
don't want to get into the newspaper business any more than the government wants to get into the business of aircraft manufacturing. I have a very wholesome respect for the newspapers-


Ernest Lapointe: Because they have the last word.


Richard Burpee Hanson: -because I have many years of experience; and I pass that philosophy on to the minister. He is, perhaps, not quite so old as I am.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Getting on.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He has
not been in public life as long, perhaps, as I have been, but if he will take it from me, it is much better to suffer in silence than to go ahead and fight those fellows when you cannot fight on your own ground.
Now, coming down to the immediate subject matter of this debate this afternoon, it arises, I assume, quite properly out of what I thought was a harmless and innocent statement which
I was endeavouring to make in this house on February 20, at the request of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black), who was greatly disturbed over the production of Avro-Anson aeroplanes as it affected his own community. That was the basis of the statement. I should much prefer that he had done it himself, and I want to assure the committee-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Richard Burpee Hanson: After all, I do not know why there is laughter over that. Tihe hon. member for Cumberland is a very fine member of this house. He is an old schoolmate of mine. My association with him goes back over a period of forty-six years and there is nothing he might ask me to do, short of dishonour, which I would not attempt to do for him.


An hon. MEMBER:: He would not ask you to do anything dishonourable.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbuiy):: Of course not. On the theory that there had been a falling down in the production of Avro-Ansons especially by Canadian Car, if you will, and more particularly because it affects industry, labour and the well-being of the town of Amherst, which the hon. gentleman so ably represents in this house, and the air force of our country, I undertook to ask the government on February 20 certain questions which I based on a statement which I had reason to believe was true. And after the minister's analysis this afternoon I find that there is only one error of fact in the statement I made- only one. What was the statement I attempted to make on the afternoon of February 20, and which I was barred by the minister himself from making, and under the rules, to which I bow? After the first two paragraphs which I was allowed to read I was stopped. The request I made was for the purpose of asking the Minister of Munitions and Supply to make a public statement with respect to a matter of vital public importance, namely, the present unsatisfactory state of aircraft production in Canada, and particularly with respect to the alleged failure-"alleged" failure; that is a fair description-of the government wholly owned corporation, Federal Aircraft Limited, to function. That was the basis of my statement. I went on to say that I preferred to do it in this way rather than in another way. Perhaps I was wrong. Innocence will make mistakes.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am very innocent about the method of approach in this house. The Prime Minister laughs at that. I wish I had his astuteness in political
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manoeuvres; I would be sitting there and he here. And I am paying him a high compliment indirectly.


Jean-François Pouliot: The word "innocence" has several meanings.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I went on to say:
Federal Aircraft Limited was set up by the minister as a government-owned corporation to coordinate the construction of Avro-Anson planes-
That may not be the full statement of its set-up but it was one of the primary reasons for setting up the corporation, as the minister's statement to-day will bear out.
-and it assumed certain important functions with respect to procurement and later the manufacture of certain essential parts involving an expenditure of $50,000,000.
That has not been disputed and I am assuming that the minister is in agreement. He nods his head.
But for some reason or other unknown to the public, the efforts of this corporation have not produced results.
The minister's statement, to-day bears out that general statement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It has produced all the
results expected at this stage.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is
a difference of opinion.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They have not produced
aeroplanes but they have produced results.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I may have one opinion and the minister another, and maybe his is better than mine. It ought to be, because he is assumed, of course, to have more knowledge than I could possibly have with regard to this matter. I will tell him this, however, that the statements which have appeared in public are based on statements made by the manufacturers themselves, and I understand they are prepared to stand by every word they said.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is not what they tell me.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am told one story, the minister tells another, and the newspapers another, but that is the information I have. Before I get through I intend to make some further observations with regard to that. Just now I am dealing with my own statement.
I am advised that around the end of the year, the acting Minister of Munitions and Supply-
The Minister of National Defence for Naval Affairs (Mr. Macdonald) was getting his feet under -the table, I suppose, in the absence of the minister, and learning something about

the operations of a huge department, which must have been an overpowering job for any new man to undertake.
*-requested an opportunity to discuss aeroplane production problems with manufacturers interested in Anson bombers-
Is that true? I believe it is. I have never heard it denied. The minister is here and he will say whether that statement is true or false. I have no doubt it is true. The minister remains silent, and therefore-


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: What is the question?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I asked
whether early in the year he did not request an opportunity to discuss aeroplane production problems with manufacturers interested in Anson bombers.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: In answer to my hon. friend's question, there was a discussion between the manufacturers of component parts of Avro-Anson bombers, on the one hand, and myself on the other. Whether I requested it or they requested it I am not sure. They came to Ottawa and requested to see me and I spent an hour or two with them.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The substance of what I say is correct. I am not concerned whether they came to the minister or the minister went to them. Whatever the modus operandi may have been, the minister met them.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Quite so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, and they discussed aeroplane production problems at first hand over the plight of the Avro-Anson programme. My information is that this was the subject matter of the discussion and that the minister:
. . . requested the manufacturers to give him their specific suggestions as to how this situation, which was the responsibility of Federal Aircraft Limited, might be remedied.
That, I assume, is true. No sabotage about that; nothing improper in the statement with regard to that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I was not accusing my hon. friend of sabotage.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I thought the minister came near it. If he did not mean it, then he shivered on the edge of it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I said that MacMillan said that he was being sabotaged, and I said I shared that opinion, believing that the way in which his name was being used was a form of sabotage.

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Richard Burpee Hanson: I got the inference, perhaps wrongly-and I am not very thin-skinned-that the minister was suggesting that I had sabotaged Mr. MacMillan, which of course is quite wrong, quite false. I had a good deal to do with Mr. MacMillan when he was timber controller. I want to say this to the minister, that I have not seen Mr. MacMillan personally on business since he took the position of chairman of the wartime requirements board. I have met him in the dining room at the Chateau Laurier, where we have had meals together-on more than one occasion-and where we chatted about everything. We avoided any business references, but I think if I wanted to see Mr. MacMillan he would see me.


Clarence Decatur Howe: You suggested if you had seen him he would have told you all about it. I hope you never asked him to do that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: In the light of what the minister has said about the question of oaths-and I had forgotten about it-I would not suggest for a minute that Mr. MacMillan would break his oath any more than I would suggest that the minister would break his. It may be I was wrong in having that impression. At all events I want to convey the impression that my relations with Mr. MacMillan were absolutely clean and above board. They always have been, and, I hope, always will be. On one occasion he was good enough to help a friend of mine in connection with a very important business transaction regarding timber. A question of United States exchange was involved. My friend is eternally grateful to Mr. MacMillan, and so am I.
But that is not the point at this time. These manufacturers-I am not sure how many there were, but I understand there were six-interviewed the acting minister at his request on. or about January 7, and submitted to him a unanimous recommendation as to what should be done. I have not a copy of that report, but I was told what was in it. According to the minister's statement this afternoon I was not given the fifth item, but I was given the four items, which I put in my statement, and which the minister repeated here to-day almost verbatim.


Clarence Decatur Howe: May I say that if my hon. friend did not have the facts he was the only one in Canada who did not. Every newspaper did.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I give my word I did not.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Every newspaper man has had it. It was part of the contents of a paper, signed by Richard Guthrie, a man I do not know and have not been able to trace.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not know him either-never heard of him.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Neither did I.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But these are the four recommendations which were made to the acting minister. There was a fifth to which the minister referred, but I cannot Tecall what it was. This is what I understand their recommendations were:
(1) that Federal Aircraft Limited be dissolved; (2) that de Havilland Aircraft of Canada be asked to manage or administer, for the Department of Munitions and Supply, the Avro-Anson project, taking over the personnel, materials, records, et cetera, of Federal Aircraft; (3) that de Havilland Aircraft assume responsibility for engineering and procurement of materials; (4) that the Department of Munitions and Supply take over the contractual and financial obligations and the financial functions of Federal Aircraft.
That is to say, the government was to assume responsibility for its own baby. There was a fifth, but I do not recall what the minister said it was. At all events I never had the statement in black and white, and I cannot say. The minister to-day, however, admits that that is a true statement of the position.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I said that by an odd coincidence it was in the exact language of the letter.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This certainly was published more than once in the newspapers. Did not Mr. Grant Dexter send this to the Winnipeg Free Press'! Was it not published there?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know.
M,r. HANSON (York-Sunbury): It was in the Financial Post and in quite a number of newspapers. It is a matter of common knowledge that this happened, and what the contents of the letter were. I do not know who gave it to the press; I have not the faintest idea. I have not, and I never had, a copy of it. But I was seized of the contents of it.
This document was signed by the chief executives of the six corporations under contract with Federal Aircraft to manufacture these planes. The statement goes on to set out the names of those companies, as follows: Canadian Car and Foundry, Ottawa Car and Aircraft Limited, National Steel Car Corporation, de Havilland Aircraft, Boeing Aircraft of Canada, and Massey Harris Company, Limited.
I should like to be corrected if this is not a correct list. If there are any more, I should like to know who they were. That was their recommendation to the minister. I pause here to say it is my understanding that their reason for making these recommendations was that Federal Aircraft, not-
War Appropriation Bill

withstanding the character of the management, had failed to arrive at its objective, and that these companies were being held up not only in the procurement of parts, but with regard to a multiplicity of things including supplies, materials and parts which Federal Aircraft was to have supplied to them.
But the biggest hurdle which had not been overcome was that of engineering data. I am told that the procuring of engineering data for planes was a very important part of the operations of Federal Aircraft, that there were more than twenty thousand blue-prints for one of these engines, and that there was great delay. I have some evidence that such is the case.
That may be excusable. As the minister has said, this was a new, mushroom enterprise in Canada. I refer to the construction of aircraft, and this type of aircraft particularly. It may have been excusable. But the delays were there, and these men were held back in the production of Avro-Anson aircraft. We were not told very fully to-day just what the causes of the delays were. It may be that personnel was not available-I do not know. That was what I was asking the minister to give to the House of Commons to-day-a factual, true statement of the whole position. That is what I asked for.
Is that an offence? Has the day arrived in Canada when a member of this house cannot rise in his place and ask the minister for information? If so, then of course we have reached the fascist state. But from the partial revelation made by the minister this afternoon, I find the government is not adhering to that policy to which it has heretofore adhered with regard to the question of production in terms of units.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What is that?


Richard Burpee Hanson: In respect of aircraft production the government has departed from the strictly rigid policy which has obtained heretofore of not giving to the house and to the country statements of production in terms of units. We have been deluged with statements of production in terms of dollars and cents which to the layman, I suggest, do not mean anything but taxes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I may say that I am quite willing to give figures for anything produced for Canada which is not on the list of the things for which we have been asked to keep production figures confidential-and most of these planes are in that position. I shall be glad, if my hon. friend wishes to ask me,

to give the production figures per unit, per month, going back as far as he likes. I have them here.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Then this debate will have been worth while. We have not had the information. We have been consistently denied it; and one of the points upon which I have dwelt on more than one occasion in this chamber has been the fear of the government to tell us what they are doing with our money.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I never have been asked for detailed figures on the production of planes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Not for
the production of planes, but I have asked for a statement, generally.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have said-[DOT]


Richard Burpee Hanson: I will sit down.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Time and again we have received cabled requests from the foreign office not to give production figures on a great many items. Our own forces also do not like this information to be given out. Since, however, the training programme is well under way, there is no great secret about it, and I shall be glad to give production figures for the training programme.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Now we are making a little progress. If the ministry cannot give all the details of the production in terms of units because of the request of the British government I will be the last man to ask for it; but they do it in Australia.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Maybe so; they are not producing very much.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, that is a matter of opinion. I suggest they are a little bit ahead in aircraft production.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, no.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would think so.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are over here trying to buy some planes from us.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is a matter of opinion, of course. Now I am trying to get a further statement, brought right down to date, about production in Australia.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Get the number of units.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I will, if they will give it to me. It has been cabled for; I think it will be obtained, and I shall be glad to table it in the house.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let me see it when it comes.

TFar Appropriation Bill


Richard Burpee Hanson: I will.


Mr. FRASER (Northumberland, Ont.):: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question? I should like to preface it by making a statement-[DOT]


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, no; I don't think so. It is five minutes to six now.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It will only take one minute.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Do not make the statement; just ask the question.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The aircraft industry feel that the whole industry was included in the statement of the hon. gentleman the other day in regard to bogging down, and I do not think he intended that. I believe he intended to refer only to Federal.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is that? I was referring only to Federal.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Did my hon. friend mean last Thursday that the whole aircraft industry of Canada had bogged down, or was he just referring to Federal? I think in fairness to himself and to the industry that might be cleared up.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Of course if the hon. gentleman had read my statement it would be quite clear to him I was only referring to Federal. I am glad to answer that question. I had no reference at all to the aircraft industry as a whole.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Thank you very much.


Richard Burpee Hanson: As a matter of fact I happen to know that for years before there was any action by this government the aircraft industry was trying to get the government interested in aircraft production in Canada, and in Avro-Ansons, without success. They were clamouring to get into the business.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Never Avro-Ansons.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister took a view to which I am not unsympathetic. I am trying to express what I think was in his mind, and what to a cautious man like myself would be quite reasonable: Should we foster the building up of an aircraft industry in Canada in peace time? That is one of the first questions the minister would have to ask himself. I have often wondered whether, if Canada were starting over again, it would foster the manufacturing of motor cars in Canada. I have often asked myself that question, though I know that in certain quarters it is not popular even to ask it. I will say this, that we fostered this industry at great cost to the consuming public of Canada.


Mr. MARTIN:: And with great advantage.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We did not start General Motors in Canada. Both parties are responsible for the fostering of the motor car industry in this country.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Thank God we have it
to-day.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, I
think that is the justification; but if we were starting over again in peace time would we commit ourselves to the expenditure we have had to make to build up the motor car industry in Canada? While I am on this point let me say that I agree with the hon. member's statement; thank God we have it to-day, because this is the one industry in Canada that has functioned.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What does my hon. friend
mean by "the one industry"?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am
singling it out as the one big industry that has produced great results.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are many others.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Shipbuilding.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not
think the shipbuilding programme is at all comparable to the motor car production. The government itself is operating $14,000,000 worth of motor cars of all kinds in Canada to-day. It has been the biggest buyer of motor cars in the history of the country; and to-day it has so many cars on hand that it does not know what to do with them. If you go up to London I am told you can see a whole field full of new motor car units.


Mr. MACDONALD (Brantford City):: They are in and out every day.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They are
lying in a field, never used.


William Ross Macdonald: They are being moved in and out all the time.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the
hon. gentleman just keep his peace? He can make his statement later on.


William Ross Macdonald: I
live a little closer to London than my hon. friend does.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This is
just an aside, in any event. I am going on with this statement, signed by these companies, to which I have referred. Then I understand that the matter came to the attention of the chairman of the war-time requirements board, and that he brought in a man from Detroit. Therfe may be some difference
War Appropriation Bill

of opinion here; if there is an incorrect statement in what I am saying I will be the first to acknowledge it, but at all events that much is true and has been corroborated by the minister to-day. The chairman of the war-time requirements board brought in from the United States a leading executive in aircraft production, Mr. Breech, head of one of the divisions of General Motors, to investigate the situation and give his advice. I am informed that his views were in agreement with those of the Canadian manufacturers, and confirmed the hopelessness of the Federal Aircraft situation. The minister did not traverse that point, but that statement is made to me by the head of one of these aircraft companies.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will say that statement is
absolutely false.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I will
say this-


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not say my hon. friend's statement is false; I say the information given him is absolutely false.


Richard Burpee Hanson: All right; let us investigate that. The statement was made by this gentleman to these men, and the minister was not present.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Quite so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: All right.
This statement was made to me by one of those gentlemen who were present, when the minister was not; and he tells me that this man did make that statement. I am going to leave it there, but if I call a witness in court I take the man who was present, not the man who was not present. Surely that is elementary.
There was a little interlude here this afternoon with respect to a question asked by the hon. member for Lake Centre. I am going to ask the Minister of Finance if he has a copy of a letter said to have been written by Mr. Breech to Mr. Sloan of General Motors.


James Lorimer Ilsley: No.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Did he ever have it?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No. The first I ever heard of it was this afternoon.


Richard Burpee Hanson: All right. I don't know anything about it-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Then why talk about it?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am asking the question of the minister; I was told he had it. He gives me his word, and that is the end of it. I do not know whether there was ever such a letter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If my hon. friend gets hold of it will he let me see it?


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, I will promise that. Will my hon. friend do the same?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, I will.


Richard Burpee Hanson: All right; we will have reciprocity. I cannot possibly finish by six o'clock, so I think perhaps we had better report progress.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Richard Burpee Hanson: What will be the business to-morrow?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: To-morrow Mr. Speaker leaves the chair without question put on going into committee of supply, so we will take up supply, I hope at an early stage in the proceedings, the supply being that of the Minister of Justice and later that of the Minister of Agriculture.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will we not go on with this discussion to-morrow?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, I think we have had enough of this for a short time.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I thought this was very urgent.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Well, perhaps it is less urgent that it was.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
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