1941-03-19

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, an agreement between the government of Canada and the government of Ontario with regard to the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence basin development was completed to-day at 1.35 p.m. It was signed at Ottawa yesterday by Mr. Howe and myself on behalf of the Canadian government and at Toronto to-day by Mr. Hepburn and Mr. Nixon on behalf of the government of Ontario.
This agreement is designed to enable the two governments in cooperation with the government of the United States to carry out the developments which are necessary to make beneficial use of the waters of the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence basin, including the development of power from the Ogoki and Long Lac diversions at the Sault, Niagara and ultimately in the international rapids section; the preservation of the scenic beauty of the Niagara river and falls and the more effective use of the waters in the Niagara for power purposes and the building of a controlled single-stage project in the international rapids section of the St. Lawrence.
An agreement with the United States of America was signed at Ottawa at 2.40 this afternoon in the Prime Minister's office by the plenipotentiaries appointed by His Majesty the King in respect of Canada: myself as Secretary of State for External Affairs, Mr. Howe, Minister of Munitions and Supply, and Mr. Read, legal adviser of the Department of External Affairs; and by the plenipotentiaries appointed by the President of the United States of America: Mr. Moffat, the United States minister to Canada; Mr. Berle, the Assistant Secretary of State of the United States, and Mr. Leland Olds, Chairman of the Federal Power Commission of the United States. This agreement covers the development of power throughout the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence basin and makes provision for a deep waterway from the head of the lakes to the harbour of Montreal. It also contains provisions dealing with and controlling diversions from the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence watershed and for the preservation of the scenic beauty at Niagara. Generally, its scope is similar to that of the Niagara convention of 1929, and the St. Lawrence Deep Waterway treaty of 1932.
The copy of the signed agreement for the President of the United States of America is being taken to Washington to enable the president to communicate it, in a formal manner, to the United States congress. The agreement will be formally brought to the attention of congress on the afternoon of Friday, the 21st. On the same day, when the House of Commons assembles, it wild be communicated to the parliament of Canada together with the texts of the Canada-Ontario agreement, the texts of relevant correspondence between Canada and the United States from May, 1938, to the date of signature of these agreements, the texts of relevant correspondence with the governments of Ontario and Quebec during the same period, and a general plan of the power and navigation development in the international rapids section. In order to permit simultaneous publication in congress and in parliament, the agreements will not meanwhile be tabled.
By an exchange of correspondence tabled in the House of Commons at an earlier date, provision was made for the establishment by the two governments of temporary Great Lakes-St. Lawrence Basin committees, in order to make the engineering investigations that were necessary to expedite work on the project, in the event that the development was approved by parliament and by congress. Reports addressed to the President of the United States of America and to the Prime Minister of Canada have been submitted by these committees, which have been working in cooperation. These reports give the general description of the project, the recommendations of the committees and the estimates of costs.
I shall now table copies of these reports in English and in French. They will be distributed without delay.
The report being tabled is styled:
St. Lawrence Deep Waterway, International Rapids Section.
Reports submitted to the President of the United States of America and the Prime Minister of Canada by the Canadian temporary Great Lakes-St. Lawrence basin committee and the United States-St. Lawrence basin committee.
1.	Joint report submitted by the committees.
2.	Engineering report transmitted by the committees.
3.	Detailed estimate of cost.
The question of the relationship of the St. Lawrence waterway project, both to the immediate war effort of our country and to the broader defence problems in which the governments both of Canada and the United States of America are interested, has been carefully considered by the two governments. I deem it advisable immediately to bring to the attention of parliament the exchange of cor-
St. Lawrence Waterway

respondence, which contains a personal message addressed to me by the President of the United States of America, with regard to this aspect of the question. I do not think that it would be desirable to comment on Mr. Roosevelt's statement at the present stage, but I feel bound to express the satisfaction and gratification of the government, and, I am sure, of all Canadians, at the president's action in placing on record in a formal state paper the determination of the government of the United States to supply such aid and material to Great Britain, the members of the commonwealth and their allies, as may be necessary to enable them to bring the war to a successful termination. As these communications are of the greatest possible public interest, I shall now read to the house the exchange of notes between the United States minister and myself of March 5 and March 10, which contain the message referred to.
The following is the message addressed by myself as Secretary of State for External Affairs to Mr. Moffat, the United States minister to Canada. It is dated Ottawa, March 5, 1941:
Sir:
I have the honour to refer to certain questions which have arisen in the course of the St. Lawrence waterway negotiations, and which we have discussed recently.
As you are aware, my colleagues and I have been giving prolonged consideration to the problems presented by the St. Lawrence waterway project. We have noted the progress made in the preparation of the engineering plan for the international section and in the drafting of the general agreement. There is, however, one consideration of a fundamental character to which we desire to call attention.
The growing intensity of the war operations and the apprehension that still more serious perils will have to be faced in the very near future, necessitate the most careful examination of any proposed expenditure from the point of view of public need and in the light of war requirements.
In existing circumstances, the Canadian government desires to know whether the government of the United States is of the opinion, in view of the position in Canada, and, of course, the position in the United States as well, that the project, as outlined in the State Department's proposals of 1936 and 1938. and under consideration since that time, should now be proceeded with.
We have, of course, been fully aware of the desire of the government of the United States to have a treaty or agreement respecting the St. Lawrence waterway concluded at as early a date as possible, and negotiations, which have been carried on or more or less continuously for some time past, have had in view the desire on our part to arrive, at the earliest possible date, at terms of agreement which would be mutually advantageous. We are also aware of the pronouncements, which have been made from time to time by the president, respecting the added emphasis given by the war to the importance alike of power and navigation developments in the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway project. We are also duly appre-
ciative of the agreement recently reached between our respective governments, whereby the province of Ontario has obtained the right to the immediate use of additional power at Niagara, and the diversion of the waters of the Ogoki and Long Lac rivers into lake Superior, in consideration of which, authority was given for the immediate investigation by United States engineers of the project in the international section of the St. Lawrence river in Ontario, in order to enable work of future development to proceed with the least possible delay, once an agreement between the two governments, respecting the St. Lawrence development was concluded.
We would naturally be prepared to give every consideration to power or navigation developments which the United States may deem necessary to the prosecution of measures calculated to aid Great Britain, Canada and other parts of the British commonwealth of nations in the present war, or to further the security of the United States itself against possible future events, which, at the moment, cannot be foreseen, but of which in times like the present full account must be taken. We realize that the government of the United States will be as solicitous as our own government to appraise the project at the present time in terms of its contribution to the efforts which are being put forward by our respective countries to preserve and to restore freedom.
It is from this point of view and in this spirit that we would ask that the St. Lawrence project be again reviewed by the government of the United States before an agreement or treaty be finally entered into.
Accept, Sir, the renewed assurances of my highest consideration.
W. L. Mackenzie King, Secretary of State for External Affairs.
To that communication I received from Mr. Moffat, the United States Minister to Canada, the following reply:
Legation of the United States of America
Ottawa, March 10, 1941.
Sir:
I lost no time in bringing to the attention of my government your note of March 5 in regard to the St. Lawrence waterway negotiations. In view of the importance of the question you raised, the matter was laid before the president, and I have been instructed by way of reply, to transmit the following personal message from him to you-
The remainder of this communication is in quotations; it is the message from President Roosevelt:
"I have given careful consideration to your recent request that in view' of the growing intensity of current war operations and the apprehension over perils which may have to be faced in the near future, the government of the United States review the St. Lawrence project and give you an indication of its views as to whether, in the existing circumstances, this project as outlined in the State Department's proposals of 1936 and 1938 should now be proceeded with.
"May I say at the outset that I am aware of Canada's increasing war effort and I readily agree that it must have first call upon your country's resources and man-power. I also

St. Lawrence Waterway
agree that in view of the existing situation the most careful examination of any proposed expenditure is necessary from the point of view of the public need and in the light of defense requirements.
"With these considerations in mind the government of the United States has as you requested reviewed the St. Lawrence project. We have welcomed this occasion to review the project because of the fact that our own defence programme renders it desirable that all public expenditures in the United States be weighed in the light of considerations similar to those set forth in your communication. The government of the United States is engaged in a great defence programme. It is determined to supply such aid in material to Great Britain, the members of the commonwealth and their allies as may be necessary to enable them to bring the war to a successful termination. Simultaneously our own defences are being strengthened to the extent necessary to prevent any foe from menacing the security of this hemisphere. It is indispensable that all public projects contemplated by the government of the United States be considered from the standpoint of their relationship to these supreme objectives.
"The government of the United States regards the Great Lalces-St. Lawrence basin project as directly associated with the accomplishment of the foremost national objectives of this government. It believes -that the project should be proceeded with and that construction should commence at the earliest possible moment. It regards the construction of this project as a matter of vital necessity.
"You refer to the engineering investigation now being conducted in the international section of the St. Lawrence river. I need hardly say that I directed the release of $1,006,000 from the special defence fund for this purpose only because of my conviction that the completion of this project by 1945 might prove of vital importance to our defence effort. It is gratifying that there has been sufficient progress to make possible the initiation of construction this spring.
"I am sure you will agree writh me that, while our countries must put forth maximum immediate defence effort, we must also prepare for the possibility of a protracted emergency which will call upon the industries on both sides of the border to meet constantly expanding demands. The combination of advantages offered by the St. Lawrence project makes it imperative that we undertake it immediately.
"In terms of the time factor, the St. Lawrence project as a part of our defence programme is not exceptional, since wre are to-day 'appropriating money for construction of vessels of war which will not be ready for service until the completion of the St. Lawrence undertaking.
"I am convinced of the urgent need for the large increment in low cost electric power which the St. Lawrence project will provide. Already the demand for power is running ahead of expectations. In fact one of the most serious handicaps to the rapid expansion of aeroplane production is the difficulty of finding the large supplies of high-load factor power required for aluminium production. We are of course expanding our electric facilities for this purpose as fast as practicable but by the time the St. Lawrence power is available other sources of cheap power will have been largely allocated.
"The St. Lawrence project offers by far the soundest and most economical provision for the power requirements of certain portions of our 14873-106
long-range defence programme, more particularly for certain -high-load factor defence industries. Furthermore the manufacturing facilities and skilled labour available for the construction of steel turbines and electric equipment will be needed to meet the requirements of the vast -areas of our continent where water power is not so economically available.
"I am also convinced that the opening of the St. Lawrence deep waterway to afford an outlet for naval and cargo ships constructed in great lakes shipyards, far from representing a diversion of funds and resources from the defence effort, would have the opposite effect. Our shipbuilding programme, to meet -the requirements of defence, will call for a great expansion of shipyards with their associated machine shops and adequate supplies of skilled labour. The extent to which intensified submarine and air attacks on convoys may necessitate an expansion of the programme is still unknown. If the war is protracted however it seems certain that the number of shipyards required will have to be several times those at present available. In terms of our present industrial arrangements, many of these can be most readily and economically available in the great lakes area.
"If the full burden of our expanding ship construction must fall on seaboard shipyards the time required to complete the vessels themselves must, in many instances, be increased by -the period necessary to construct new shipyards and facilities. With this in mind it is apparent that -the deep waterway could be completed in time to provide an outlet to the sea for many of the new vessels included in -the present programme.
"In the light of these facts it is my belief that the funds -and man-power required for the earliest possible completion of the St. Lawrence project could not be better spent for our joint defence effort, including aid to Great Britain. It is my feeling -that failure to take advantage of the possibilities of this project would be short-sighted, in no way contributing to an increase in our immediate defence effort, while limiting our defence programme in the difficult years which lie ahead."
Accept, Sir, the renewed assurances of my highest consideration.
Pierrepont Moffat.
I now table copies of this correspondence in English and in French, and also French copies of -the report of the engineers.
I should like to repeat what I said a moment ago, that, while I do not think it is desirable to comment upon Mr. Roosevelt's statement at the present stage, I feel I should emphasize -the great appreciation of the government and the people of Canada of the president's expression in a formal state paper of the determination of the government of the United States to supply such aid and material to Great Britain, and members of the commonwealth and their allies, as may be -necessary to enable them to bring the war to a successful termination.
Hon. R. B. HANSON" (Leader of the Opposition): The Prime Minister has made an announcement of more than ordinary importance although, I may say, not altogether

St. Lawrence Waterway

unexpected. It would be manifestly improper, if not impossible, for me to make at this time any comment which would serve a useful purpose. There are, however, a few questions which I should like to ask the Prime Minister. It is apparent, I think, from the statement which he read that the agreement is in the form of an agreement and not in the form of a treaty. I think we can take that as an accepted fact.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is right.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Then I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether this agreement will be submitted to parliament at this session. If so, will it be submitted before it has been considered and approved, or otherwise, by the United States congress. Finally, I should like to ask him if he will lay on the table of the house an opinion of the Department of Justice, if one has been received, as to the legality of proceeding by way of agreement rather than by way of treaty?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In reply to the leader of the opposition, I may say that the agreement will be submitted to this parliament for approval after it has received the approval of congress and not before. I hope and expect that that approval will be given shortly and that it will be possible to have the agreement presented to this parliament at the present session. With respect to my hon. friend's other question, I shall be glad to table on Friday, with the agreement, the opinion of the Department of Justice with respect to the binding nature of an agreement in the form of an agreement rather than in the form of a treaty. That opinion will be supplemented by an opinion of the Attorney General of the United States.



CANADIAN ARMY (RESERVE) TABLING OP REGULATIONS WITH MODIFICATIONS RESPECTING TRAINING PLAN

Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: I wish to lay on the table of the house a copy of reserve army special regulations, 1941, which have been passed, containing certain modifications of the army regulations which were considered necessary and advisable in connection with the training plan, as announced.


Mr. STIRLING:: Will copies be available for members?


James Layton Ralston: I made inquiries to-day and I believe there are a number of copies. They tell me they have about seventy-five available.


Grote Stirling: I should like to have one.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. HOBLITZELL:: 1.	What are the conditions in the oil industry which make it necessary to give wide powers to the oil controller as set forth by order in council No. 1195 dated February 19, 1941?
2.	Has the government taken any action with a view to promoting a more extensive production of oil in Canada?
3.	Is it the intention of the government to take possession, control or management of the oil industry in whole or in part under powers contained in clause 2 (c) of order in council No. 1195 dated February 19, 1941, or any other authority thereunto enabling, and has the government taken any such action?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	The oil industry in Canada is the largest user of United States exchange, and war needs make it imperative that the use of United States exchange be reduced to the fullest possible extent.
2.	The government has taken steps in that direction.
3.	This is a matter of government policy which will be made known in due course.


HAMILTON HARBOUR COMMISSION
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	Who were the members of the Hamilton harbour commission from July 31, 1940, to September 30, 1940?
2.	Who represented the Hamilton harbour commission at a convention of harbour commissioners held in California during the month of September, 1940?
3.	Who paid the expenses of these representatives?
4.	What did these expenses amount to?


Mr. CARDIN:: In answer to the above questions, the Hamilton harbour commissioners have supplied the following information:
1.	Cecil V. Langs, K.C., and Andrew G. Gaul.
2.	C.V. Langs, K.C., chairman, was appointed a delegate for the Hamilton harbour commissioners, and attended the annual convention of the American Association of Port Authorities held at Long Beach, California, from September 10 to September 15, 1940. E. H. Corman, who, as a member of the Hamilton harbour commissioners, was elected a director of the American Association of Port Authorities at their annual convention held in Milwaukee in 1939 and attended meetings of such directors during his term of office. Mr. Corman was appointed alternate delegate of the Hamilton harbour commis-

Questions
sioners, and attended the said convention held at Long Beach, California, in September, 1940.
3.	Hamilton harbour commissioners.
4.	Railway expenses	$414 26
Other expenses-
U.S. funds	$250	25U.S. exchange	
31	05
Travellers' cheques.. 3 44 284 74
Total Canadian funds	$699 00


SPITFIRE AND HURRICANE FUNDS
Mr. LOCKHART:: 1.	Are Spitfire airplanes made in Canada?
2.	If not, what becomes of the money donated to Spitfire funds?
3.	What becomes of the moneys donated to Hurricane funds?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	No.
2.	It is understood that those collecting Spitfire funds forward them to the government of the United Kingdom, as Spitfire airplanes are manufactured in the United Kingdom.
3.	These moneys are paid into the consolidated revenue fund of Canada out of which payments for the purchase of war equipment including Hurricane airplanes are made. Hurricane airplanes are made in Canada.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY-HOUSING


Mr. CORMAN:: 1.	What is the personnel of the staff of fruit and vegetable inspectors in the Niagara peninsula, including the counties of Wentworth, Lincoln, WeHand, Halton and Haldimand?
2.	What are their names?
3.	What position do they occupy?
4.	How much salary did each receive for the fiscal years 1939 and 1940?
5.	Have their services been satisfactory to the Department of Agriculture?
14873-106J
Questions


Mr. GARDINER:: 1 and 3.	2.
Permanent
District fruit inspector (for western Ontario).. Ponton, H. II
Senior fruit and vegetable inspector	Craig, C. M	
Supervising fruit and vegetable inspector	Dawe, J. H	
Supervising fruit and vegetable inspector	Furminger, W. J..
Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Ladd, W. F	
Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Beveridge, D. J..
Permanent seasonal
Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 2	Long, R. R	
Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Ford, P. L	
Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Muir, E. J	
Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Pickett, C. H....
Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Gregory, Chas. ..
Temporary seasonal
Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Baker, F. H. R...Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Baldwin, E. D....Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Blott, A. E	Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Brownridge, O. A.Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Buck, Thos	Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Cameron, K. E...Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Chappell, F. C....Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Dix, E	Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Dunham, J. L_______Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Fisher, E. D	Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Fraser, F. R	Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Furminger, G. S..Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Gillespie, J. H...Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Greenwood, H. ..Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Harding, C	Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Hogle, E. M	Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Lemon, E. L	Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	McPherson, K. ..Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Millard, C	Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Milmine, W. S
Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Monroe, C. J	
Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Smith, J. D	
Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Southward,	E.	W.Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Southward,	L.	K,Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Stewart, Frank ..Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Tufford, H. H______Fruit and vegetable inspector, grade 1	Udell, G	Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Utter, Geo	Fruit and	vegetable	inspector,	grade	1	Wilson, F.	L.	...5.	Yes, with very few exceptions.
4.
Year 11 months ending ending March 31, Feb. 28, 1940	1941
S3.000	00	$2,750	002,520	00	2,310	002.190	00	2,090	002,280	00	2,090	001,890	00	320	00. ,	1,760	001.562	18	1,760	001.570	00	1,495	001,005	65	834	841,366	59	322	591,030	42	28	53150	00	70	00350	00	295	00351	45	50	00155	00	. [DOT] [DOT]596	00	, . .682	74	865	001,585	00	1,485	00492	50	312	50541	29	455	97202	90	35	00504	68	490	65. ,	138	4S801	29	775	00	435	00330	97	490	65899	03	704	19207	26	. ,	599	00	35	00335	33	275	16270	00	. ,	. [DOT] [DOT]220	32	199	89687	50	611	29263	87	225	00440	32	158	23598	79	588	87.	143	00255	97	159	68398	71	.


PORT HOPE, ONT., FEDERAL BUILDING
Mr. ADAMSON:: 1.	How much money was spent during the year 1940 and up to date in 1941 on the Federal building in Port Hope, Ontario, for decorating, renovation or other such work?
2.	Were tenders called for this work?
3.	If so, what are the names of those tendering and the amount of their respective tenders?

4.	Was this work done by day labour?
5.	If so, who was the superintendent of the wrork ?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Expenditure for interior and exterior painting, decorating and repair of public building: 1940, $675; 1941, SI,605=82,280.
2.	Yes.

Questions
3.	Only one tender received from Robert Sainsbury of Port Hope for S2,280.
4.	No.
5.	Answered by No. 4.
soldiers' transportation


Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many soldiers at Petawawa are on trial at Pembroke, charged with using false railway tickets for furlough?
2.	Before whom will they appear and what is the date of the trial?
3.	Who laid the complaints and what railway is prosecuting?
4.	Will the government provide counsel for the accused so as to assure them a fair trial?
5.	Will the government or Minister of National Defence order a government inquiry so as to establish reforms in soldiers' transportation, as a protection to Canada's soldiers?


Mr. RALSTON:: 1.	Fourteen.
2.	Magistrate F. J. Galligan. Hearing March 22, 1941.
3.	Provincial Constable E. V. McNeill. Railway concerned is Canadian Pacific Railway.
4.	It is not the practice for counsel to be provided at public expense in such cases.
5.	This involves a matter of policy regarding which announcements are not made in advance.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY-PURCHASE INVESTIGATORS


Mr. BENCE:: 1.	What motion pictures are represented in the commitment of $112,220 mentioned by the Minister of National War Services at page 1337 of Hansard?
2.	What motion pictures have been produced
and/or paid for by the director of public information?	,
3.	What ivas the total cost of each such motion picture?
4.	Were these motion pictures produced in cooperation with the national film board or the Canadian government motion picture bureau ?
5.	If so, what amount, if anv, was expended by the national film board and/or the Canadian government motion picture bureau in respect of such motion pictures and wffiat outstanding commitments are there?
6.	Are expenditures and commitments for such purposes by the national film board or the Canadian government motion picture bureau charged to the ordinary estimates or to the War Appropriation Act?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Theatrical-Produced:
Atlantic Patrol.
Letter from Aldershot.
The Home Front.
Front of Steel.
Squadron 992.
Wings of Youth.
Britain at Bay.
Peoples of Canada.
Letter from Camp Borden.
Un du 22ieme.
Children from Overseas.
Guards of the North.
Everywhere in the World.
French news reels.
London Can Take It (French).
La Croix et L'Epee.
Questions

Theatrical-In production:
Science in War (provisional title). Canadians in Britain (provisional title). Navy Film (provisional title).
Strategy of Metals.
Non-Theatrical-Produced:
On Guard for Thee.
Not Peace-But a Sword.
Timber Front.
Iceland on the Prairies.
The Lion Has Wings.
Non-Theatrical-In production: Workshops of War.
Youth in War (provisional title).
This is My Country (provisional title).
2. All those listed as	"Produced" in answer		
to question 1.			
3 and 5.			
	Costs		Outstanding
Theatrical	to date	commitmentsAtlantic Patrol	$	588	27	nilLetter from Aldershot.	1,886	no	nilHome Front	7,216	76	nilFront of Steel	7.013	75	nilSquadron 992	3,268	76	nilWings of Youth	12,081	93	nilBritain at Bay	1,058	93	nilLetter from Camp	Borden	12,572	21	nilUn du 22ieme	7,540	40	nilChildren from	Overseas	6.449	39	nilGuards of the North.	4,195	75	nilEverywhere in the	World	592	68	$ 3,000 00Science in War	567	50	1,800 00Canadians in Britain	56	32	50 00Navy Film	6,789	28	1,500 00Strategy of Metals...	386	38	nilFrench news reels....	2,964	15	nilNew Women's Film.	nil	300 00Peoples of Canada...	106	30	9,500 00London Can Take It	(French)	680	41	nilLa Croix et L'Epee..	383	96	5,900 00News reel co-opera-	tion with Canadian	and U.S. Companies	3,109	21	nilCosts	OutstandingNon-Theatrical	to date	commitmentsOn Guard for Thee..	3,765	18	nilNot Peace-But a	Sword	3,133	36	nilWorkshops of War...	422	37	2,925 00Timber Front	4.663	63	nilYouth in War	210	00	nilIceland on the	Prairies	3,474	85	400 00The Lion Has Wings.	532	17	nilThis is My Country.	310	73	nil

N on-Theatrieal	Costs to date	Outstanding commitments
Poland Will Never		
Die	, nil	600 00Circulation costs	. 1,909 41	nilExtra prints non-	theatrical films	, 1,887 50	2,120 00Travelling expenditures	, nil	2,632 00Incidental costs	. 1,383 59	150 00Total	$101,202 03 $ 30,877 00 $132,079 03	Of the above total: Expenditure to motion picture	bureau by Department of National War Services	S 1,887 50
Encumbrance by National War Services given to
national film board....8109,820
Encumbrance by National War Services given to motion picture bureau... 1,400

 111,220 00

Outstanding commitments of:
National film board recoverable from National War Services		18,971 53

4.	National Film Board.
6.	War Appropriation Act.


EXEMPTION OF AGRICULTURAL SOCIETIES FROM CERTAIN TAXATION
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Are reserves and working capital of agricultural societies, as well as the cash surpluses of cooperative agricultural societies affected by the war revenue tax?
2.	Will the government consider the advisability of exempting such societies from this taxation?


Mr. GIBSON:: This question, in almost
identical form, appeared on the order paper last week, and at that time I stated that it was impossible to answer it in its present form. The question does not yet specify the tax referred to, and I might say further that it is quite impossible to state how a tax will affect any society without knowing whether the society comes under the provisions of, or any exceptions to, the taxing act referred to.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. FERLAND:: What railway lines have been abandoned by order of the board of transport commissioners in each province of Canada?

Canadian War Effort


SOLDIERS ELIGIBLE FOR TRADE PAT
Mr. SHAW:: 1.	What are the classifications of those in the armed forces eligible for trade pay?
2.	What is the rate of pay for each such class?
3.	Are all those holding trade papers eligible for trade pay?
4.	Are all those eligible for trade pay in receipt of such pay?


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. HOBLITZELL:: For a copy of all orders in council, reports, memoranda and correspondence between the government and Department of Munitions and Supply and the oil controller, his officers, assistants and employees and associates and consultants m his own or any department of government having reference to the constitution of the oil controller and of his office, or the control of oil or the oil production and supply business or having reference to the maintenance and carrying on of the office of oil controller and the various policies to be pursued by him, or acts, matters and things proposed, done or to be done by him during the years 1940 and 1941 to the present time.


Mr. HOWE:: May I point out that a considerable portion of the return asked for is privileged, particularly the correspondence between the government and the Department of Munitions and Supply and the oil controller, his officers, assistants, employees, associates and consultants, all those men being employees of the department. Of course, correspondence between the minister of the department with these employees is privileged.
I believe the other documents asked for have already been tabled under previous orders for returns, so that this motion could very well be dropped.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I ask if the recent order in council respecting the powers of the oil controller, and in particular the one which gives him immunity for any act done by him or purporting to have been done by him under any order in council, has been tabled? I desire to call attention to the last section of that order in council, which so far as I know is the most unusual grant of immunity from legal process ever given to any public official in Canada, far beyond any statute ever passed by this parliament for the protection of a public official.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will look into the matter, and if all orders in council have not been tabled I will see that they are tabled immediately.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: I should like to ask the Minister
of Transport (Mr. Cardin) whom we are all so glad to see back in his seat-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Richard Burpee Hanson: -if he will say when we may expect the report of the Canadian National Railways to be tabled in this house. The fiscal year of the company ended, I understand, on December 31, now nearly three months ago. We should be glad to have the report tabled.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I sincerely thank my hon. friend
for his kind reference to my return, and also the members of the house for their generous approval of the comment.
In answer to his question I may say that I expect to be in a position to table to-morrow the report to which he refers.


CANADA'S WAR EFFORT
[Stage Direction]
SUPPLIES TO GREAT BRITAIN-QUESTION OF STATEMENT as to Canada's position
On the orders of the day:
Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale):: I wish to address a question to the Prime Minister. Now that the lease-lend bill has been passed and there is no longer danger of being charged with interference in a United States domestic issue, as indicated by the Prime Minister in reply to my question of February 28, would the Prime Minister now consider making a statement informing the United States of Canada's actual position in relation to supplies to Great Britain?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say to my hon. friend in reply that I think such a statement might most appropriately be made by Canada's minister at Washington, and I will with pleasure instruct the minister to make such a statement and to do so within the course of the next few days.
I might add that I have noticed in a section of the press some comment upon the fact that Mr. McCarthy on the day of his arrival at the legation did not give out full information in reply to a series of questions asked him by
16S0
Commonwealth Air Training

a large number of representatives of the press who were present at the legation at a gathering called to afford the press opportunity of making the new minister's acquaintance. I would say that I think Mr. McCarthy was wise in not attempting to answer offhand in his first meeting with the press the number of questions presented to him at that time. But I know it was his intention when he left Canada to take an early opportunity to give to the people of the United States, in an appropriate way, the very information to which my hon. friend refers.


PRICE OF BUTTER
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. KARL K. HOMUTH (Waterloo South): In view of the fact that there are rumours and newspaper reports to the effect that the government is considering the withdrawal of the pegged price on butter, would the minister care to make a statement to the house in that regard?
Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Minister of Labour):: I believe I should answer the question, as the Minister of Labour is responsible for the contact of the government with the war-time prices and trade board.
I had not heard the rumour referred to by the hon. member and did not hear any discussion of it, consequently I am unable to add to the information which the hon. member already has. By that I do not mean to suggest in any way that such information is correct.


Mr. ROWE:: Page the Minister of Agriculture.


COMMONWEALTH AIR TRAINING
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of National Defence for Air):: 
ST. LAWRENCE DEVELOPMENT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. SASSEVILLE ROY (Gaspe) (Translation) :: Mr. Speaker, the St. Lawrence development plan having been officially adopted, I wish to ask the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) the following question: The tergiversations leading up to the adoption of the plan having been under way since 1936 or 1938, why did the government not submit this important question to the approval of the people at the election of 1940?

National Defence-Number of Recruits


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I hope my hon. friend
will pardon me if I do not attempt to answer him in the language in which he has spoken. That I believe would be a courtesy to the language. As I understand his question, it is wholly academic. However, I shall read it over carefully and if I think it requires further answer I shall make it on another occasion.


NATIONAL DEFENCE
[Stage Direction]
NUMBER OF RECRUITS WHO HAVE EXPRESSED WILLINGNESS TO ENLIST FOR ACTIVE SERVICE On the orders of the day:
James Layton Ralston: On March 17 the hon. member
for Souris (Mr. Ross) asked for a statement of those receiving the thirty-day training, giving the number by military districts of those who had expressed a willingness to volunteer for active service, either in the navy, the army or the air force. I am laying on the table of the house a statement in accordance with my hon. friend's request.
There is one slight discrepancy to which the officers of the department want me to call attention. It has been pointed out that in replying to the hon. member for Parkdale (Mr. Bruce) on March 3, as reported at page 1144 of Hansard, the number of recruits of the first and second training periods who expressed a willingness to volunteer for overseas service was given as 13,736. A comparison between that figure and the figure shown on this statement reveals a difference of seven, which discrepancy is explained by the fact that returns had not then been received from the training centres at Cornwall and Peterborough. Estimates were made instead of getting the actual figures.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Will that statement appear on Hansard?


James Layton Ralston: I can put it on Hansard, but I would have to read it.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Take it as read.


James Layton Ralston: The statement is as follows:


NUMBER OF RECRUITS WHO HAVE EXPRESSED A WILLINGNESS TO ENLIST IN THE ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY, CANADIAN ARMY (ACTIVE FORCE), ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE
[Stage Direction]
Military District	District Headquarters	1st Period 9th Oct. to 7th Nov. 1940	2nd Period 22nd Nov. to 21st Dec., 1940	3rd Period 10th Jan. to 8th Feb., 1941	Total	RCN	CA (AF)	RCAF	RCN	CA (AF)	RCAF	RCN	CA (AF)	RCAF	RCN	CA (AF)	RCAFi	London, Ont	118	253	516	131	316	583	116	208	513	365	777	1,6122	Toronto, Ont	154	212	545	144	219	684	72	71	230	370	502	1,4593	Kingston, Ont	44	191	233	53	152	406	68	518	458	165	861	1,0974	Montreal, P.Q	75	204	193	63	148	232	74	219	269	212	571	6945	Quebec, P.Q	14	39	23	33	133	66	7	42	58	54	214	1476	Halifax, N.S	176	196	185	118	230	157	154	269	214	448	695	5537	St. John, N.B	07	460	193	65	349	195	53	262	382	185	1,071	77010	Winnipeg, Man	126	228	601	171	364	854	44	110	251	341	702	1,70611	Victoria, B.C	62	57	134	99	41	230	100	57	235	261	155	59912	Regina, Sask	31	104	192	95	840	381	41	519	181	167	1,463	75413	Calgary, Alta	25	77	154	51	90	1S8	23	91	153	99	258	475Total	892	2,021	2,909	1,023	2,882	3,956	752	2,360	2,944	2,667	7,289	9,86919,805
National Defence-Number of Recruits

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, March 18, consideration in committee of a resolution to provide sums not exceeding $1,300,000,000 for the year ending March 31, 1942, for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Fournier (Hull) in the chair.
Mr. COLDWELL:: Mr. Chairman, there are several questions I should like to ask the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) in connection with radio broadcasting. On March 29 the Havana agreement comes into effect, and there are some questions which I think should be asked and answered before that date. As far as possible I have endeavoured not to interrupt the line of questioning by other hon. members, but since we seem to be getting toward the end of this debate I am taking this opportunity to ask the questions. The minister may not, at this time, be able to give me all the information I want, but I shall ask the questions and he can give me a reply at his leisure.
In the allocation, as announced some time in February, of broadcasting frequencies or channels to take effect on March 29, in accordance with the so-called Havana agreement of 1937 and subsequent arrangements, I notice that three of the six or seven class 1A clear channels, listed as available for Canada in the north American regional broadcasting agreement, have been allotted to private commercial stations which operate on a power of from
10.000	to 15,000 watts. Inasmuch as the class 1A clear channels envisage the ultimate use of
50.000	watts or more, will this allocation mean the abandonment of the policy which was stated by the minister at Moncton on October 12, 1937? The minister is reported as having summarized the basic policy as follows:
The broadcasting corporation has adopted, as a policy, government ownership and operation of the larger stations. In future private stations will not be allowed to expand beyond 1,000 watts, while existing larger stations will not be permitted t;o increase their present power. The corporation will, however, proceed as rapidly as funds will permit to build a series of high-power stations, which will in themselves give full coverage.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Would it not be good policy to answer one question at a time?


Major James William Coldwell: I have a number of
questions to ask. If I give them all to the minister, he may feel inclined to answer them
19, 1941	1683
War Appropriation Bill
at the same time. This policy was outlined to and approved by t.he parliamentary committee on radio broadcasting which sat in 1938 and 1939. These high-power channels, if I may call them that, were looked upon as being ultimately intended for the purposes of the corporation's long-term national publicly-owned coverage. In accordance with this policy, I believe that all subsequent applications for power in excess of 1,000 watts have been rejected. My question in this regard is: If this policy has not been abandoned, have the stations at present obtaining high-power clear channels been so informed? There should be no misunderstanding and no possibility of the owners of the stations feeling that they have vested interests beyond what is covered by the original understanding.
In the Havana agreement, 730 kilocycles is described as a clear channel, but it was not included among the channels to be made available for Canada. In the minister's statements of February 3 and 5, this channel is allocated to station CKAC owned by the Montreal La Presse, which, I believe, is operating on 15,000 watts. My question is: Has Canada obtained this channel in addition to the clear channels obtained in accordance with the agreement made at Havana? If not, has it been obtained in substitution for one or more channels? What is the exact classification of this channel to-day? According to the announcement made by the minister on February 5, when the new allocations go into effect on March 29 the CBC's 50,000 watt Ontario regional transmitter CBL is to operate on a frequency of 740, which is a class 1A channel. Do the technical advisers in the minister's department, or the responsible technical officers of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation consider ten kilocycles to be sufficient separation on the average dial to obviate serious interference between this station near Toronto and station CKAC near Montreal, using 730 kilocycles? I ask this question because my experience, even with a high-powered modern set, has been that it is very difficult to separate stations close together, and I am wondering whether the separation in this instance is sufficient; for, after all, the broadcasting corporation's own stations so far as possible should be relieved of interference from a comparatively high-powered station not far away, and operating only ten units apart. I would ask the minister to look into that matter.
There is this further point: Out of the seventy privately-owned stations in Canada
War Appropriation Bill

which serve a local function, with power of
I,	000 watts or less, stations CKBI, Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, belonging to the Prince Albert radio club, station CFPL, London, Ontario, belonging to the London Free Press, station CHML, Hamilton, Ontario, belonging to the Maple Leaf Radio Company, and station CJBR, Rimouski, Quebec, owned by
J.	A. Brilliant, have been allocated channels listed in the Havana agreement as clear, high-power channels. The first station I mentioned, and the last two, have been allocated 900 kilocycles, and the London station 1570 kilocycles. Again, how was this selection made, and what are the classifications of these channels?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Surely they are not clear
channels allocated to Canada, are they? Are they not allocated to Mexico?


Major James William Coldwell: Then I have this further question: Do the allocations to CKBI, CFPL, CHML and CJBR imply a permission later to increase the power of all or any of these stations to the limit provided for such channels in the international agreements? Again I ask these questions designedly, because I believe it was the intention of parliament, the parliamentary committee, the minister and all concerned to see to it that our own publicly-owned broadcasting system is preserved. I raise these questions so that we may clarify the position, and make certain that there is no possibility of a privately-owned competing broadcasting system being permitted to set itself up in Canada, and thereby in any way interfere with or disturb our nationally-owned system.
Therefore I wish to ask this question: Did the immediate and future requirements of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's longterm plan of national coverage govern the allocation of frequencies announced by the Minister of Munitions and Supply on February 3 and 5? Were all the announced allocations duly recommended by the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in accordance with the requirements of the Canadian Broadcasting Act, 1936?
If there has been any departure on the part of the department from the broadcasting board's recommendations, will the minister state in respect of what stations and frequencies, giving particulars and reasons why such departure or departures were taken at that time?
The next question which arises is this: In view of the allocation to privately-owned

stations of some twenty-five class III channels, involving the possibility of using up to 5,000 watts, has the basic principle of the corporation's plan of national coverage been modified to permit of such increases?
I believe the remaining questions relate more or less to the possibility of the setting up of a United States chain in Canada. I ask these questions because it has been suggested to me that unless we safeguard the present position, such a condition might develop. Are stations CFRB Toronto and CKAC Montreal, agencies or outlets of a United States commercial network? What is the exact relationship between these stations and the Columbia broadcasting system?
Has the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, as the national network authority, control of this entire network affiliation, and any stations which may be affiliated with the two stations to which I have referred?
Is it the policy of the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to retain and to maintain a de facto control over all networks or hook-ups, as outlined to and approved by the parliamentary committee on broadcasting of 1939? That refers, of course, to the discussion which took place in the committee and to its subsequent report.
The last question I would ask the minister is this: In view of the importance of radio broadcasting in connection with the present war, and in view of the extent to which it has been used for propaganda and other purposes, has the government considered the advisability, under the circumstances, as a war measure, in the near future to purchase, lease, expropriate or otherwise acquire the outlets from United States networks to which I have just referred, namely, stations CKAC and CFRB?
I have asked these questions because several persons have drawn to my attention some changes which seem to have been made. In view of the minister's statement made in 1937, and the approval given to that policy by the parliamentary committee, before the Havana agreement becomes effective on March 29 I believe it would be well for the house to understand the situation as it now exists, and it should receive assurances that the privileges which have been granted to certain privately-owned stations shall not cause any misunderstanding in the future as to the determination of the House of Commons and the Dominion of Canada to retain this great public service

War Appropriation Bill
as a national public service nationally controlled, serving the Dominion of Canada, and one which shall not be allowed to become a profitable organization for any private group or interests in the country.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be pleased to submit the hon. member's questions to the technical officers in my department, and to give the answers at a later date. In the meantime, however, I would say that so far as the board's attitude toward the power of stations is concerned, there has been no change in policy whatever. In other words, new stations are limited to 1,000 watts. They are granted
1,000	watts, if a wave length can be made available. Stations of high power are being maintained at the power they had when the board took control.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it not quite clear that under the authority of the War Measures Act the government has power to-day to take over the two stations to which reference has been made, if, as and when it deems it desirable so to do?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, quite. So far as those two stations are concerned, we have the power, without spending any money at all, to stop them from being outlets for the two chains. The government believes, however, that its coverage to-day is satisfactory and it sees no difficulty about that situation.


Mr. McNIVEN:: Mr. Chairman, last Saturday and Sunday a number of members of the House of Commons enjoyed the hospitality of the city of Hamilton as guests, of the hon. member for Hamilton East (Mr. Ross). The hon. gentleman has for some time established a reputation for geniality and joviality, but a geniality and joviality with a fixed purpose, because the group which journeyed with him to Hamilton included representatives of the nine provinces and members of the Liberal, Conservative, and Cooperative Commonwealth Federation parties in this house.
In Hamilton we saw its peace-time industrial life; we saw and heard how Hamilton had converted and adapted its peace-time industrial life to the war effort. We saw Hamilton's war industry in action. We learned of its intricacies; we saw its magnitude; we observed its efficiency along a wide and varied front. The hon. gentleman whose guests we were has rendered a public service not only to the city of Hamilton but to the whole dominion in promoting a better relationship between central Canada and those of use who come
from distant parts of Canada, and also in according an opportunity to understand industry and its contribution to the war effort in these perilous times.
Those of us who were privileged to visit Hamilton have extended to the hon. gentleman our personal appreciation, and I am quite sure that those who were with that party would join with me in a public recognition of the opportunity thus accorded. The opportunity gave rise to less serious moments, for Hamiltonians are good entertainers, and on this occasion we had an opportunity of hearing from Mr. Black, president of the Otis-Fensom Elevator company; Mr. Myler, president of Canadian Westinghouse Limited; Mr. Morton, vice-president and general manager of the International Harvester company; Mr. Sherman, president of Dominion Steel and Foundry ; Mr. Maybury, representing the Firestone Tire company; Mr. Hart of the National Steel Car company; and Mr. Hilton, representing the Steel company of Canada.
Each of these gentlemen gave a brief outline of his particular industry and of what it was doing in connection with war work, and extended to the members of the House of Commons a warm and cordial invitation to come to the city of Hamilton and see for themselves what each of these respective industries was doing. That invitation was given in warmth and sincerity, and I would advise all those who are in the neighbourhood of Hamilton to take advantage of it.
One member of the party, not any of those to whom I have referred, suggested to me the adjournment of the House of Commons in order that our entire membership might see and observe for itself, a procedure, which, I believe, would serve to dispense with that paltry, petty, picayune criticism which, during the last three or four weeks, has characterized much of the debate on this resolution.
Shortly after our arrival in the city of Hamilton, our host arranged for us to visit the plant of the Canadian Westinghouse Company. That company first came to Canada in 1896, and started on an expansion programme in 1903, with the result that to-day its plants cover an area of fifty-three acres and has some 4,600 employees. They are now building a new plant, started some four months ago, which we were not privileged to see or go through, inasmuch as its purpose, devoted to the war effort, is shrouded in secrecy. We had an opportunity, however, of observing
War Appropriation Bill

plants in operation, and their domestic establishments where everything of an electrical nature is manufactured-irons, toasters, washing machines, refrigerators and many other household and ofrice conveniences. Radios are being made there; and as an instance of how this company has adapted itself to Canadian war requirements, we saw radio cabinets, hitherto made of imported wood, manufactured from Canadian elm, cabinets of which any home might well be proud.
On the commercial side we saw ignition switches being manufactured for motor cars; electric motors up to 7,000 horse-power. In 1903, when this company first embarked on this line, the height of their ambition was to manufacture an electric motor of 100 horsepower. In that plant, too, they are manufacturing air-brake equipment for locomotives, freight and passenger cars; also brake equipment for the electric cars used on our street railways, and brake equipment for motor cars.
In the power equipment plant we were privileged to see giant transformers up to a capacity of 50,000 k.v.a.; immense water wheel generators up to a capacity of 70,000 horsepower, being manufactured and turned out for the development of electrical energy in Canada. Dynamos, too, are constructed there. The activity of this plant takes on a new significance in the light of the Prime Minister's statement to this house this afternoon when a shortage of power was visualized even in the United States of America.
We saw, too, the manufacture of a plant which, as nearly as I can remember, was called an electric pot line. This electric pot line is essential to the mining of aluminium. These pot lines are being manufactured in large numbers and shipped to the aluminium mines on the Saguenay river in the province of Quebec. I learned that these electric pot lines were essential to the manufacture of aluminium and that, by their use, those engaged in that branch of mining were able to extract approximately fifty-eight pounds of aluminium from every ton of ore. The importance of this industry to the life of Canada can be visualized *when it is remembered that several thousand pounds of aluminium are required in the manufacture of every plane.
One interesting item which is being manufactured there and which we saw, was the bomb racks attached to aeroplanes for the holding of bombs and their subsequent release. They looked to me comparatively simple, about 51 feet long and 11 inches in width. They are required to carry a bomb weighing 1,000 pounds, and before those bomb racks are released from the plant they are subjected to a test of 4,000 pounds so as to make defi-
TMr. McNiven.]
nitely certain that they perform their intended function.
We also saw in progress the manufacture of miscellaneous war equipment and component parts for Canada's war effort. There is another phase of the Westinghouse production which I shall mention in a moment or two when I come to the plant of the Otis-Fensom Elevator company.
We next proceeded to the plant of Dominion Foundries. It was an eye-opener to many of us who are not accustomed to great industrial enterprise. There are great blast furnaces, together with batteries of crucibles and retorts for treating molten metal. We saw gun barrels sixteen to twrenty feet long, ten to twelve inches in diameter, sizes never before made in Canada. We saw a block of metal placed in huge retorts, heated, shaped and then put on a series of lathes from which it was turned into the shape which we ultimately saw. We then saw that barrel wrapped, ready for transfer to another plant, where it will be bored. May I emphasize, on the authority of those who conducted us through the plant, that never before in the history of Canada have gun barrels of this calibre, of this size, or practically of any size been made in the dominion.
In that same plant we saw armour plate up to 5i inches in thickness being made, and armour plate of 3 and 3J inches in thickness for the manufacture of tanks, for use in corvettes and other equipment, in process of being made. We were told, too, that never before in the history of Canada had armour plate of this type and of this thickness been made. That plate is shipped to the Angus shops in Montreal to be manufactured into tanks. We were told that certain sections of that metal were shipped to Yalcartier, where they were subjected to the most rigid tests in order that they should function as intended.
We saw, too, the smaller sizes being made, every sheet of which is tested in the plant of Dominion Foundries. They have built a gallery to which each section is taken and a machine gun is turned upon it. The gentleman in charge said that it was a most dangerous place to be, for the bullets ricocheted in all directions. However, not a sheet of this metal is accepted unless it has the imprint of a bullet upon it.
Next, we were taken to that portion of the plant utilized for the manufacture of tinplate. The tin-plate is cut to all sizes and used subsequently in the manufacture of metal containers. I do not know the extent to which heretofore tin-plate has been manufactured in Canada, but I do know that the facilities at the city of Hamilton have been

War Appropriation Bill
substantially increased in the plants of Dominion Foundries, and that the Steel company of Canada is opening, in the immediate future, a new plant for its manufacture. It was interesting at the end of the process to see a section of that tin-plate taken and tested for its tensile strength and also tested chemically in order to make sure that no injurious substances were contained in the metal itself.
Later in the afternoon we went to the plant of the Otis-Fensom Elevator company, which until recently was not engaged in war activities. They have just completed a new plant, the construction of which was started on November 15 last. It is partly occupied now and will be completely occupied in the immediate future. It covers 7J acres of ground and cost, I understand, somewhere around $5,000,000.


Mr. REID:: May I ask if the tin-plate is completely finished?


Donald Alexander McNiven: As I understand it, the tin-plate is really steel rolled to a certain thickness, carried through a solution of tin, and then put on immense rolls, from where it is carried to various shearing machines, by which it is cut into sizes required by the manufacturer. We saw every step of that process.
In this new building we saw long rows of lathes of every kind and description, made, it seemed to me, in almost every city in both Canada and the United States. In that factory we saw the Bofors gun, which is, I understand, the most efficient and effective anti-aircraft gun yet made. We saw these gun barrels in their initial stages and processed from lathe to lathe until finally they came out a complete unit, boxed and ready for shipment to Great Britain. This was the most interesting part of our experience, inasmuch as we saw the boring of the Bofors gun, and observed how the gun was finally rifled in order to give it greater projectile strength. The Bofors gun shoots 120 2-pound shells a minute, and the life of the gun is exactly seven minutes; after that, its value is pretty much that of scrap.
I regret that the limitations which were placed upon us prevent me from giving figures of the production of the Bofors gun, but I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, from information we received, that the production, already quite substantial, will be doubled within the next few weeks and will progress steadily from that point until a maximum production is reached.
A few days ago, in glancing over the Ottawa Citizen, I noticed an item, "How Germany
Trains Her Workers." I quote one paragraph from that article, which is an excerpt from the Manchester Guardian:
The foundations of the German training system are four-week courses of intensive training. The trainees are first given a job (before training), and are paid during their training time at unskilled rates. After the four-week course they are taken over by the firms and further trained in the works. As much as possible of the training is done in the factories and as little as possible outside, in the technical institutes, Labour Front camps, and training courses.
I had no information that anything of that kind was being attempted at any of our Canadian factories, and it was a real thrill to have the Otis-Fensom people show us through their trade school. In fact, it was a part of their plant in which they took greater pride than in anything else. They established this trade school, and in reply to questions they said that they drew their recruits from likely applicants. They gave some preference to graduates of technical schools or the youth training movement, and found that these youngsters were more receptive to future training than those who came in completely uninitiated. It is a large school, and in order to have a training staff they sent three of their men to England to get the necessary technical instruction. These men are now instructing advanced pupils and the advanced pupils in turn will instruct others, so that from this school they expect to build up their personnel in order to carry on the work of that factory.
The same thing is being done in the Westinghouse plant. Certain girls are there now, being given definite technical instruction in the inspection and testing of the products of that plant.
We then went to the plant of the National Steel Car company. I was in that plant on the 23rd day of June last. The manager, Mr. Hart, informed me that four months before that date the site upon which that plant stood was a swamp. I could scarcely believe it; for I was in a building that was approximately 1,200 feet long and 400 feet wide, and it was equipped for the manufacture of 3-5 and 3-7 anti-aircraft shells. They were actually being turned out on the 23rd day of June. Mr. Hart told me on that occasion that they employed some 1,800 people in that plant and that they had little or no difficulty in getting the required number of employees. When I asked him from what source, he said that many of the people who were employed in the plant had not had any work for a couple of years. Many had been taken off the relief rolls of the city of Hamilton.
Going through that plant, we saw steel ingots put into the blast furnaces; we saw them brought to red heat; we saw them put
War Appropriation Bill

through the presses, progressing from one press to another, from one lathe to another, until finally the 3-5 or 3-7 anti-aircraft shell appeared on the inspection table ready for inspection and shipment.
The inspection completed, the shells are boxed in cardboard cartons, eight to the carton. Formerly these shells were shipped in wooden boxes at a cost of $2.50 each and took up twelve square feet of shipping space for their transhipment to the old land. Now the cardboard carton is used at a cost of 50 cents, with a corresponding saving in labour and shipping space. I am not able to give the quantity of shells being turned out in that plant. I mentioned having been in the plant on June 23, 1940, and I can say that the production on that date was quite substantial, and that on March 16 last, the production was seventeen times the figure which was given to me on June 23, 1940
The National Steel Car also manufactures steel freight and passenger cars; and when we remember the statements made in the last few days as to possible shortage of rolling stock, we may be grateful for the efficiency of the plant. It also turns out truck bodies and car frames. When I was there in June last, they were turning out 200 a day. On Sunday last, we saw long lines of freight cars loaded with truck bodies painted in familiar military colours, enabling the motor car industry to function with that efficiency which provided transportation for British troops in Libya and in certain other parts of Africa.
There were 1,800 employees in that plant in the month of June. There are many hundreds more employed at the present time, and I should like to pay a tribute to Mr. Hart, general manager of that company, who apparently is the hardest worker among his employees, for he is there day and night, at all times helping and encouraging.
As a result of my experience there and my observations of what was going on, I could not help being impressed with the fact that all our activities are inter-related and that all of us as individuals or groups are inter-dependent. The products of Canada, products of the land, the sea, the mine and the forest, are brought together, fused by the ingenuity and skill of man. We saw both in action, peace-time pursuit and war-time activity. My Hamilton experience has made me a better Canadian and has given me a greater appreciation of Canada's potentialities and resources, and still greater confidence, if that were possible, in the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe), the guiding genius, directing hand and correlating head of Canada's ministry of munitions.

May I in the time that remains to me make some remarks with regard to my own province of Saskatchewan. I know that as soon as I mention Saskatchewan, the popular mind immediately turns to wheat-thinks of the wheat farmer as the wheat miner who alternately spends his winters in Florida and on relief. Just in that regard I should like to emphasize that Saskatchewan does grow wheat. It grows the best wheat in the world, and has perfected mass production of that commodity.
I know also that the wheat surplus to-day is what the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) referred to the other day as a headache. But there have been and are great men in the world. The name of one man has come down in history as the result of an idea, generated 2,500 years ago, when Joseph decided to store corn in Egypt. As a result of his wisdom and foresight, the people of that day and generation were saved from starvation, and his prudence and foresight have been remembered all down the ages by the phrase, "There is corn in Egypt." I say to you there is corn in Saskatchewan, and that corn (wheat) will yet fulfil a useful function. Wheat was a factor in the last war. I heard Sir George Paish say two years ago that had it not been for the bountiful harvests of western Canada and the ability of the British navy to ensure its safe transportation, Great Britain would have been starved into submission in 1916 or, if not, in 1917. Wheat will yet be a factor in this war. Wheat will ultimately be a peacetime asset of great value, enabling Prime Minister Churchill to carry out his pledge to the people of the devastated parts of Europe that there will be food in abundance for all.
In the corridors of this building I sometimes hear Saskatchewan referred to as the problem province. May I say, however, that is heard only in the corridors of this building. We have had a long chain of agricultural disasters; rust, wind, grasshoppers, drought, low prices and many other things. But, great as these other problems are, the greatest with which we have had to contend and from which we suffer at the present moment, is the fact that by reason of the manner in which Canada's war effort is being conducted, there are a million people in Saskatchewan who have not been given an opportunity to pull their full weight in Canada's war effort. I submit that we have given abundant evidence of our willingness to pull that full weight, and that we deserve better treatment.
May I remind hon. members that Lieutenant-General McNaughton, commander of Canada's army, was born at Moosomin, Saskatchewan, and also that Saskatchewan citizens of every race and creed have enlisted

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in Canada's armed forces. May I remind them also-and this was a surprise to the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald)-of the number of recruits for the navy who came from the prairie provinces, and, in particular, from Saskatchewan.


Thomas Reid: They are good sailors, too.


Donald Alexander McNiven: Exceedingly good sailors, as was proven by their experience on board the Fraser and the Margaree. On the Fraser, when it was rammed in the bay of Biscay, there were twenty-three sailors from Saskatchewan, many of them from the city of Regina. Two of those young lads, Donald Snelgrove and Ronald Young, were plunged into the bay of Biscay and swam around for an hour and ten minutes before being rescued. Taken to England, they were stationed on board a boat there, and it had to be moved because the jetty to which it was moored was bombed. A little later, a bomb lit on the right of the boat and, a few minutes later, one on the left. On leave in London, they were on the third floor of a seven-storey hotel, and a bomb came through to the fourth floor. They spent the day in helping the air-raid wardens and the relief department in carrying succour to those who were injured, and during that afternoon a thermite bomb fell on the street sufficiently close to bum the coat of one of those lads. In all of these experiences they escaped unhurt.
Later, they boarded the Margaree, and when she was sunk a few months ago, those two lads were the sole survivors of the Saskatchewan contingent on board that boat. The Saskatchewan boys had entered into a compact that those who survived would, on their return to Canada, visit the homes of those who were lost. Those two lads arrived back in Regina; and in order to carry out that compact, borrowed a car and visited the parents of the other twenty-one who were lost on board the Fraser and the Margaree and carried to those parents a message of sympathy in which we could all join. Singularly enough, on the way home a tire blew out and the car turned over three times. Once again the two lads emerged unhurt. Their reaction to these experiences was that if there is anything in that old story about the cat, they had still two lives coming to them. What an experience for boys not yet 19 years old!
Within the last few days, this city has been honoured by a visit from Wing Commander Ernest McNab, a son of Saskatchewan. I may remind hon. members that he is a son of the lieutenant-governor of Saskatchewan. He covered himself with glory, brought glory to Canada and to his native province, and carried
consternation and dismay to the enemy. In this city he was interviewed by the press but refused to talk of his personal exploits. He displayed a modesty which he learned at his mother's knee. He spoke of team work; that spirit he absorbed from the Saskatchewan atmosphere. That spirit is characteristic of the attitude of the people of Saskatchewan to-day; they desire to play their part and pull their weight with the other provinces of the dominion in order that this war may be speedily brought to a successful conclusion. In the armed services, Saskatchewan people have played their full part.
In Saskatchewan, national registration was accomplished in the three days set apart in August, and Regina, which I have the honour to represent, was one of the three constituencies in Canada which carried out national registration on a purely voluntary basis. Over forty thousand men and women were enrolled during those three days without the expenditure of a single dollar of public funds. We have also more than doubled our quota in every one of the war charity appeals of this dominion. In my own city in the last two campaigns the Red Cross succeeded in raising $90,000 in cash at a cost of less than $400.
The war savings certificates campaign has just been concluded. Our city has a recorded population of about 55,000 people, and of this population 15,025 men and women pledged themselves to make monthly contributions to Canada's war effort by the purchase of war savings certificates to a total of $825,000. This has all been accomplished from a sense of duty, and despite difficulties which in 1933 reduced our per capita income to $133, an income lower than the per capita of any other province. Happily, our income is double that to-day, but it is not from surplus income that these contributions are being made. The people of Saskatchewan realize their obligation and these accomplishments are only evidence of a willingness, a desire and an inclination to endure further sacrifices in order to do their part.
I should like to refer to the matter of military establishments. Yesterday the hon. Minister of National Defence put on Hansard a table showing the pay and allowances according to military districts. I do not think this table answers the question which I asked. The total to which I referred was $253 million, but the total of what he has given is not anywhere near that amount. From the figures that have been given, it will be noted that No. 12 military district, located in Saskatchewan, has a lower total of pay and allowances than any other district in the dominion. The military pay and allowances
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for Canada in 1940 amounted to $183,122,000, which was distributed among the various provinces as follows:
Prince Edward Island	 $ 1,824,000
Nova Scotia	 18,660,000
New Brunswick	 8,772,000
Quebec	 27,264,000
Ontario	 74,064,000
Manitoba	 17,760,000
Saskatchewan	 9,552,000
Alberta	 7,344,000
British Columbia	 17,748,000
It may be inferred from these figures that Saskatchewan men have not been enlisting. What has happened is that Saskatchewan men have been transferred to other units and have been sent to other points for military training. I was really alarmed the other day when I heard the Minister of National Defence outline the plans for the formation of a tank corps and an armoured division. He stated that the training of these units would be carried on at Petawawa, Kingston, Listowel and Barriefield. Reference was made to Lord Strathcona's Horse, which, I believe, originated in the west but now is identified with the city of Listowel. It seems to me that the logical place to recruit an armoured division or a tank corps is in the prairie provinces. In Saskatchewan alone there are more than 47,000 tractors and over 7,000 combines in operation. Our men are experienced in driving tractors and combines; they are used to handling motors. Apparently, however, the whole outfit is to be recruited and trained in the central provinces. Once more we are being deprived of that to which I think we are entitled.
I contend that there should be a wider distribution of war industrial plants in Canada. As was said by the hon. member for Temis-couata (Mr. Pouliot) the other day, there is a possibility of invasion. Just recently, an editorial in one of the Ottawa papers commented upon this. It will be remembered that a year or two ago, the Hon. Doctor Manion referred to the possibility of bombing planes coming down through Hudson bay and James bay to bomb Toronto, Hamilton and other centres. On Sunday last, Mrs. Black, a former member of this house, referred to the possibility of this happening. If that is so, some of these industries should be established on the prairies which are a long distance removed from any such possibility.
I am not speaking in a spirit of jealousy or with a desire to have removed any plants which are located in eastern centres at the present time. I have, however, too much respect for the good people of Hamilton to wish to expose them to the danger of bombing should industrial plants continue to be concentrated there and in other centres. We 
have no war industries in Saskatchewan. Just one small contract in Saskatoon for the manufacture of universal gun carriages.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Does the hon. member say that there	are no war industries	in
Saskatchewan?


Donald Alexander McNiven: None at all.


An hon. MEMBER:: Except wheat.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What about air training?


Donald Alexander McNiven: Hon. members representing different provinces have outlined the war activities in their respective provinces.	I
notice that British Columbia had, in 1940, a payroll of over $17,000,000. That province has varied industries. They supplied about three-quarters of the timber which was used in Canada's war effort during 1940, I believe a total of 374 million feet.


Thomas Reid: We provided a market for your wheat.


Donald Alexander McNiven: Of that immense total, only eight million feet was supplied by Saskatchewan.
I come now to the maritimes. The hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg (Mr. Kinley) gloried in the contribution which Nova Scotia was able to make. I read now that traffic is so heavy on the Atlantic portion of the Canadian National railways that there is practically no such thing as unemployment in that section. I understand that the war traffic required 258,000 freight cars, and that more than 7,500,000 tons of war materials have moved over the Atlantic division into the maritime provinces, creating on the Atlantic coast of Canada two of the greatest harbours on the north American continent.
I am not jealous of that, but I do desire most seriously that the people of Saskatchewan be given an opportunity to pull their full weight, and that some effort be made to develop our resources. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have industries out there. We have resources, besides wheat; and if I had the time, I could speak for hours in telling you not of beauties and grandeur but of the resources of Saskatchewan which are not related in any way to the production of wheat. There are, however, certain things we need. More than $300,000,000 of public money have already been expended in subsidizing certain industries, building new plants in the eastern and other parts of Canada, and not a single dollar of that has been expended in Saskatchewan-with the exception of some airports.
When I first attended the university in Winnipeg some thirty-five years ago, that city was not as large as the city of Regina is

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to-day. At that time Calgary was a mere dot on the map. To-day, both those cities have outstripped Regina, and largely because of power developed at Winnipeg and at Calgary, which has brought industry to their doors. Ours is not a well-balanced economy; and if we are going to place ourselves in a better position economically, we must have the development of a block of power. From where, do you say? My reply is that in southern Saskatchewan we have twenty billion tons of coal-yes, I said billions. It is lignite coal, true, but it is a better coal than the brown coal of Germany upon which that country must rely to-day. It is a better coal than the brown coal of Norway and Sweden which was used to develop the iron and steel industry of those countries. It is a coal with an overburden of from 40 to 150 feet. Right there to-day immense steam shovels are operating to remove that overburden and to mine the coal. After it is sized, it is placed on freight cars, all at a minimum of cost.
Already at the mouth of the mine there is an electric plant generating electric current, and distributing it over a limited area in southern Saskatchewan. A company has recently offered to build at the mine mouth a plant which will develop electrical energy at a price of six-tenths of one cent per kilowatt hour, delivered at Regina, 128 miles distant. I realize that power is essential, and feel that something could be done by the government of Canada to establish a war industry in that part of the country, thereby justifying the development of power at the coal mines in Saskatchewan.
In addition to that, there is at Fort a la Corne on the North Saskatchewan river, a hydro site which has been investigated and surveyed. All it lacks is capital for development. Then, there are at Lloydminster in northwestern Saskatchewan, gas and oil fields, which could be utilized for the development of a block of power.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Surely the development of power is a provincial matter?


Donald Alexander McNiven: And so is the building of an industry inside a particular community. The point I make is that over $300,000,000 of public money has been used to subsidize various enterprises and to provide plants for corporations which are infinitely better financed than is the province of Saskatchewan.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Why?


Donald Alexander McNiven: Why what?


George Hugh Castleden: Why are they being financed?


Donald Alexander McNiven: I have no criticism of that. These plants were put up under pressure.
Their products were required for immediate use; the government turned to those agencies which could produce the goods with the least possible delay, and the least possible expense, in order to meet the emergency which was right at our door. I am not making any criticism of that. But we are told by Mr. Churchill, and we have been told repeatedly by our Prime Minister that we must prepare for a long war. If we are to prepare for a long war, then let us prepare in a manner which will utilize the resources, willingness, energy, information and initiative of all the people in Canada, including the million in Saskatchewan.
I have mentioned that a site is being developed in Alberta at lake Minawanka, west of Calgary. Already there have been overtures for the transmission of power from that site, or associated sites, to Saskatchewan. If transmission lines were built to connect the cities of Regina, Saskatoon and Moose Jaw, power reserves could be pooled, and a block of power developed which would be sufficient to support a very substantial industry.
May I remind hon. members that in Saskatchewan we have over eight billion lineal feet of standing, merchantable timber, accessible to transportation. Yet for Canada's war effort that province has supplied only some 8,000,000 feet.


Thomas Reid: What kind of timber?


Donald Alexander McNiven: Spruce, tamarack and a few other varieties of that kind. It is all good lumber. I am not going to suggest that it is available for shipbuilding. The day of the prairie schooner is gone, but I suggest that that lumber could be used for housing, for erecting other buildings required, and thereby conserve the supply of timber in other areas for the building of ships and larger buildings. The use of that timber should be developed under the direction of the timber controller.
We have heard a great deal about our wheat surplus; yet no one has so far made any move to establish a plastics factory on the prairies, right alongside the wheat surplus. In the press we saw rumours respecting the erection of an aeroplane plastics factory, and of course it was to be built in central Canada, 2,000 miles away from the best wheat area in the world. Wheat makes a good plastic. Certain electric fixtures are now being made in Regina from wheat plastic. If a plastics industry could be developed, we would have an outlet for the wheat surplus which is causing so much anxiety to many people to-day.
Last Saturday and Sunday I saw thousands of firebrick in the various plants we visited. I inquired where they came from, and I was informed that they came from England and the United States. The people in charge
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seemed to be oblivious of the fact that at Clay Bank, south of Moose Jaw, there is the largest deposit of fireclay in Canada. In fact, there is only one other, and it a small one, in the constituency of Fraser Valley.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: Not a small one, at all.


Donald Alexander McNiven: Well, a little smaller. At that point fireclay is being manufactured into firebrick and is used in the boilers of all locomotives on the western divisions of the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Canadian National Railways. But the users of that material do not seem to know that such a product is available in Saskatchewan, and they proceed to buy it from outside points.
I have spoken a good deal longer than I had intended; but there is one further point which I should like to develop and with respect to which I again suggest Saskatchewan has been overlooked. There have been youth training centres at Regina, Saskatoon, Moose Jaw and Prince Albert. But, sir, the personnel trained in those schools was less by one-half than the number who trained in and graduated from the school in Galt, Ontario.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Oh, but look where Galt is!


Donald Alexander McNiven: I do not envy the location of Galt. I would sooner be where I am in the city of Regina.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: You would be surprised.


Donald Alexander McNiven: I do not envy them anything they have.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: They have me.


Donald Alexander McNiven: As I was saying, those who have been trained have come down to eastern Canada, and over a hundred of them have found work with the Canada Car and Foundry company at Fort William. Advertisements appear almost daily in our newspapers, calling for trained mechanics and for those experienced in the handling of machines to come down to eastern Canada where they will find a job. You see, Mr. Chairman, what has happened to us. We have been drained economically by the fiscal policy of Canada ever since the days of confederation, and now by the application of the war policy we are being drained of our young men and our young women. It is becoming a problem for us, but the problems that are being created now are nothing to what the problems will be after this war is over to again populate that province and find something for our people to do.
I ask the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) to increase the vote for the training of personnel for war industries so that in Saskatchewan, schools may be established, not 
only in the large centres such as Regina, Saskatoon and Moose Jaw, but in twenty-five or thirty or forty towns, where schools can train from forty to fifty pupils, because in all those towns will be found that number of willing workers who are eager to be trained. Give them an opportunity to participate in Canada's war effort on an equal basis with people from other parts of Canada. I wanted to bring this matter to the attention of the Minister of Labour and to urge him to increase the vote in order to provide trained personnel from our Saskatchewan towns.
This, together with the location of some war industries in Saskatchewan, particularly those with peace-time possibilities, will remove that sense of frustration which our people resent so much today and will at the same time provide a cushion, a shield, a buttress for the aftermath of the war.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: Mr. Chairman, I
find myself in accord with the address just delivered to this committee with regard to industry in Saskatchewan, but it is not with that I intend to deal this afternoon. Rather I wish to direct certain questions to the Department of National War Services.
Last evening, the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) stated that the day was fast approaching when the man-power of this dominion, so far as labour was concerned, would be used up and that the training courses which are now being given would be insufficient to provide the necessary labour.
What I wish particularly to deal with this afternoon is the mobilization of women throughout the dominion, a matter that has not yet been dealt with by the committee, nor was it dealt with by the Minister of National War Services (Mr. Gardiner) in the review which he gave the other evening. I think the committee and this country should know what the policy of the Department of National War Services and of the Department of National Defence is in connection with the utilization of the services of the women of this dominion.
All of us agree on one thing, that the women of Canada have at this time the will to serve and to sacrifice in even greater measure than during the last war. Many Canadian women feel to-day, as we know from correspondence which all members of the house receive from time to time, that they are being denied that equality of sacrifice for which opportunity is accorded the women of the mother country.
I have no apologies for bringing this matter before the committee because, in my opinion, the time has arrived when the women of

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Canada should be given a greater share in determining the outcome of this war. They give their services to-day in the Red Cross, in the nursing services, and in great degree in connection with war service campaigns and the like.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: And they are sacrificing
their sons.


John George Diefenbaker: Yes; we all realize that. They have, however, had no opportunity as yet to serve in any public organization, nor have the auxiliary organizations which they have set up been given that recognition to which I believe they are entitled. There have been started in various parts of Canada by the women of this dominion, voluntary organizations such as the auxiliary service corps, the women's voluntary service corps, the Canadian auxiliary territorial corps, where physical training is given, motor mechanics are taught, and also first-aid and home nursing, and transport and office administration courses are given.	_
I would ask the Minister of National War Services what use is being made of the training which these women are voluntarily undertaking. These women are willing to serve. Over the radio and in the press they are being asked to serve, and yet no use in a public way is being made of their services. They told of their qualifications in the voluntary registration which the women made in November, 1939. They followed that up and gave their qualifications again in the national registration.
The necessity of mobilizing the woman-power of the nation has been recognized in Great Britain, and the situation there has been epitomized in the words of Peggy Scott, in a recent work known as "British Women in War," a few lines of which I should like to quote:
Woman, as a national worker, was an experiment during the great war. She was_ regarded as an acquisition when war came again.
The British government was slow to make the woman-experiment in 1914. It held out both hands to acquire her services before the war began in 1939.
Not until the country had its back against the wall in 1917 were the women allowed to relieve the men in the fighting services. .Not until the food of the people was threatened were the women allowed to go on the land. . . .
The government did not wait for war a second time to enrol the women. It reckoned with the woman-power which had astonished it in the last war. Before the second great war began, the government had called for the biggest women's voluntary service ever known, and the navy, the army, and the air force had turned again to the women who had helped them out in 1917-1919.
In the United Kingdom, munitions factories have been staffed from top to bottom in consequence of the training schemes which
were established there in 1939 by the women's engineering society. As a result of what has been done in the old country, many men are to-day being relieved for active war service by reason of the fact that the women have been organized to take over managerial and labour work in the munitions factories.
All I am advocating to-day that the Department of National War Services should do is this-prepare now to mobilize these women; do not wait for another year or two years when the problem of a shortage of employees is likely to face this dominion.
In the old country, women are organized also into what one might call military corps: the women's royal naval service, in which they are enlisted as cooks, bookkeepers and the like; the women's auxiliary territorial service, where they are enlisted as clerks, stenographers and the like; the women's auxiliary air service, where they are organized under supervision to do work which is ordinarily done by men. There are also the nursing organizations, to which I shall not now make reference. These organizations of the air force, the navy and the army are under government control, and themselves form part of the services. There are also voluntary corps.
My only reason for making this resume is to ask the government this question, what is the government doing towards organizing the women of Canada along similar lines to the organizations I have mentioned? What is the government doing towards the establishment of a Canadian women's corps, where the services of women will be utilized in a similar manner to that in which they are used in these corps in Great Britain? Our manpower for purposes of production will gradually diminish-we have been told that over and over again in this committee-as the war progresses; and if this women's corps is set up now, or provision is made for its establishment, many men who are to-day doing work as clerks, cooks, drivers of cars, ambulances and the like, in the army, could be released to active army service. As a matter of fact, it has been estimated that women could take over 10 per cent of the positions now occupied by men in the armed forces of Canada.
I suggest to the government, and I ask for a declaration of policy with regard to, the establishment of training corps for workers, the widening of the scope of those already in existence, the setting up of training courses to fit women throughout Canada to do work in munitions and other factories for, as the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) intimated last night, the day is fast approaching when the necessary man-power for labour
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will be diminished to a minimum. The training of women at this time for the day when that shortage of man-power does arise, will ensure that their services will be available when they are required.
What is the position to-day of the Department of National War Services? Does it give inspiration and leadership to women's work in this dominion? Have they any announced policy in this connection? Offers from thousands of women have come during recent months to the department. Are their services being utilized? I will read an excerpt from a letter written by Doctor E. W. Stapleford, director of voluntary services, of the Department of National War Services, on November 6, 1940, in answer to the request of a woman for war work of some kind:
Your letter of November 2 addressed to the Minister of National War Services has been referred to me for reply.
As yet we have not time to make use of the thousands of offers which have come to this office. This whole problem is being carefully worked out and we hope that before long we shall be able to offer useful employment to all who desire it.
You may expect to hear from us again in the course of a month or two.
It is revealed there that already offers by the thousand to serve this country had been received. More than two months have elapsed, but as yet there has been no announcement or declaration of policy. What is more, under the regulations as they now stand in this country, women who can secure work in the United Kingdom in connection with the war are denied the right to leave Canada and go to Britain to do the war work which they cannot find an opportunity of doing here. Is it not time that some leadership should be given to the women of this country, by the setting up of an organization to survey, if necessary, the situation here in Canada and to correlate the work of the various women's organizations? I believe there are many outstanding and public-spirited women who would be willing voluntarily to undertake this work with a view to contributing their part in assisting the country and the empire at the present time. I ask the government to answer these questions, in particular: What is being done towards the organization of a women's corps in this dominion? Is it the intention of the government to appoint some woman to take over the direction with a view of organizing the various corps that are willing to serve?
This matter, I submit, is of great importance at this time; it is one that, if properly taken hold of, will do much towards mobilizing and uniting the people of this dominion.
fMr. Diefenbaker.]


Mr. GILLIS:: Mr. Chairman, the few
remarks I have to make I should like to have made immediately following the speech of the hon. member for Regina (Mr. McNiven). I was greatly interested in his story of his visit to Hamilton, and was sorry that I could not have taken that trip with other hon. members. I had an invitation to a previous engagement in Hamilton which prevented me from accompanying the delegation. The hon. member effectively told the story of his visit to the different plants, and I am sure that all of us are greatly encouraged to know that matters are going so smoothly in that particular section.
However, while in that city on Sunday, at the same time as the delegation was there, I happened to meet some returned soldiers who served in the last war and who were employed-I say, "were"-by the National Steel Car company, one of the plants visited by the delegation. This group of ex-service men asked me if I would bring to the attention of the government the situation which confronts them at the present time, and which is not very nice. They have been endeavouring with every means at their disposal to have this matter settled by correspondence with their representative here and other agencies, but so far they have received no redress.
In order that hon. members may understand the basis for the few remarks I shall make, and the steps taken by the men themselves for the purpose of having the matter satisfactorily adjusted, I wish to quote from the Hamilton Review of September 27, 1940:
Too old now to fight for their country, there are Hamilton veterans of the last war with a fight on their hands at home this week. And right now it looks like a losing one. They are fighting for their jobs. This week six of them were fired. And there are others slated to go soon. There may be as many as fifty of these old soldiers discharged within the next few weeks. At least, there will be a couple of dozen unless some effective protest is registered at Ottawa. Incompetence is not the reason for dismissals of these veterans, and it is not because their jobs are being eliminated. Every one of them is being replaced, and will be replaced, by a young woman who will do the same job for less money.
That is just the beginning of that editorial which appeared in September, 1940. I have here another copy of the Hamilton Review of January 31, and perhaps it would be well for me to read a short extract from an article appearing on that date:
With their jobs at stake, a group of forty veterans of the last war were looking for a friend in Ottawa this week. They were pretty sure that the saving of those jobs was a matter that a friend in Ottawa could do something about. For nine or ten months now these

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veterans have been shell inspectors. By the end of next week most of them, perhaps all, will be ex-shell inspectors-unless the official order of the munitions board is changed; unless someone in Ottawa is able to convince Ottawa that there may be some things more vital to the successful prosecution of Canada's war effort than placing women in their jobs. And we think these veterans might be excused for believing that there are some aspects of the war effort more important. Some of them have told us of things that they see from day to day on their jobs which make them wonder whether Canada's war effort is the serious, all-out business that they have been led to believe.
These men are working on shells of about 50 pounds. When it was pointed out to one official of the munitions board that it would require six women to do the work of two men now on the job, the official replied that the munitions board was "not interested in production." If this answer came as a surprise . . .
And so forth and so on. The matter is not one that arose last Sunday, and the men affected have been doing everything they can to bring about an adjustment. I have no objections to the Department of Munitions and Supply utilizing the services of women in any plant, factory or enterprise where there is a shortage of labour, but from the short visit paid to Hamilton I do not think that in that particular city there is any shortage of labour. I do not think it is conducive to our war effort, or lends any support to the effort in that city, to have forty or fifty ex-service men in this condition. These men went through the last war for the preservation of democracy, to make Canada a fit country for heroes to live in; and to have them, many of them married men with families, replaced to-day by young girls with no responsibility whatever, will not help the war effort. If, as the editorial sets out, it is for the purpose of reducing wages, then I think it is a matter that should be looked into by the Department of Munitions and Supply.
I would gather from a conversation which I had with the men affected that there is some misunderstanding as to who is responsible for the situation, or who has jurisdiction over these particular jobs. These men were shell inspectors. I understand that this work is under the supervision of the United Kingdom technical mission, an organization which at the present time is bringing out from Britain technical experts who are taking charge of this work. I believe that some of the correspondence they had with their own representative stated that there was not much that could be done because this particular end of that operation was in charge of British representatives in this country. Assuming that is true, I still think the government of this country have responsibilities as far as their own employees are concerned.
In some instances an alternative was given some of the men. They were asked if they would go to the United States or move to other parts of Canada and carry on the same line of work in other plants. I was given to understand that the rate of wages in the plant at Hamilton is fifty cents an hour. If they moved to the United States their wages would be increased to fifty-six cents an hour. The men that are being sent from Britain, the technical experts and others from Woolwich arsenal, are paid a subsistence allowance of $17 a week. There was a previous arrangement in that plant, I was told, and what I am saying is subject to correction. I understand that, under the previous arrangement, when they were sent to Canada they were paid a subsistence allowance of $17 a week.
Most of these ex-service men are getting on in years. They are fully qualified and capable of doing that kind of work; but to ask them at this time, with a rate of wages of fifty cents an hour, to break up their homes in Hamilton and move to other parts of Canada or to the United States, without giving them the same subsistence allowance as is given by custom established by the people under whose supervision they are to-day, is absolutely unfair. Most of them are in a poor condition of health. We can understand that. As I say, they are getting along in years, the victims of the last war more or less, and they cannot be expected to pull out and go to another country without any assurance of what they will return to when the war is over.
I think the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) should have some responsibility. The labour department has definitely brought down laws governing wages, and fixed them at a certain level. May I ask whether order in council P.C. 7440 applies in plants under the supervision of the United Kingdom technical mission, and do other labour laws which have been passed in order to regulate matters for the duration of the war equally apply?
I mention this in order to bring it to the attention of hon. members. It is nothing new to those in charge of the Department of Munitions and Supply. There is nothing against these men. They are fully qualified. Some of them showed me certificates given them by employers who are letting them out now. One man in particular had twelve weeks without employment.
He had a certificate from the superintendent stating definitely that he was leaving through no fault of his own; that it was because of a change in their regulations; that the work
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was being allocated to women, and the superintendent had no hesitation in recommending him for that work. He gave me a copy of that certificate.


Norman Alexander McLarty: The hon. member made a suggestion as to the extent to which order in council 7440 applies. Perhaps he would
permit me to give the answer. It applies to all labour matters over which the federal government has any jurisdiction.


Clarence Gillis: What I am endeavouring to find out is this. Apparently this is only the start. I gather that British industries are moving in here now. They are moving in this way, that grants are being made to certain industrial plants in Canada; and when they come into production, technical experts come in and take charge. That plant is entirely manned, as far as employees are concerned, by Canadian labour. What jurisdiction or authority has the Canadian government over a plant which is managed and owned by the United Kingdom technical mission that is directing their work in this country?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I would say that would be definitely a war industry, and would come under the provisions of order in council 7440.


Richard Burpee Hanson: And you have jurisdiction over it?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Yes; to the extent that it is a war industry, we have jurisdiction, of course.


Clarence Gillis: I just wanted to bring that to the minister's attention and should like an explanation as to what can be done to have this group of forty or forty-five men retain their work in that city.
Before I sit down I should like to refer to representations that have been made in the house with regard to the question of shipbuilding. I was very much interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Regina City (Mr. McNiven) with respect to the smoothness of our war effort from the industrial point of view as he saw it in a brief visit to one city. The Minister of National Defence for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald), when questioned last evening as to the possibilities of shipbuilding in Nova Scotia, stated that the reason why more of the appropriation of approximately $50,000,000 was not being expended in that part of the country-only about two per cent of it is allocated to Nova Scotia-was that tenders by those who operate shipbuilding plants in that province were so high that nothing could be done. I know that most of the plants in Nova Scotia are not equipped to handle the type of ships that are

needed at present. He also made the observation that there is no provision whatsoever for the government to subsidize that industry.
The operations in Hamilton should be pretty smooth. The government has done pretty well by the industrial set-up in that city. I do not want to go through the list, but I observe that the government has made grants, to one particular company alone, to the extent of $8,000,000. In all, the government has -made grants to subsidize industry in that city to the extent of $26,211,776. If that can be done, and if shipbuilding is as much needed as it is at the present time-and there is no doubt it will be more important as time goes on- admittedly something is necessary, at any rate, in the eastern end of Nova Scotia where the only industry they have has declined and employment has been very little helped by reason of the war, and some assistance might be given that industry there. I see no reason why the government should not subsidize or set up a plant of its own, to be operated as a national project, no one making any profit out of it. The industry is necessary there; it will serve the war needs. If they put into it some of the millions that have been put into private industry, and supervise the operation themselves, it would serve both purposes at this time; it would give that part of the country a new lease of life; it would provide ships during the war; and when the war is over, it could be maintained as an industry, for shipbuilding is going to be important for a long time to come.
I am particularly interested in having an answer from the Minister of Labour as to his jurisdiction over that matter in Hamilton, and from the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe). I think the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Gibson) represents that constituency, and I know he has been doing what he can with respect to bringing the matter to a satisfactory conclusion. This is merely the start of this business; it is going to grow. I am particularly interested in it, as all who are interested in organized labour in this country at this time should be.


James Layton Ralston: May I say just a word with regard to what my hon. friend said last respecting the intergovernmental inspection board. Until he spoke, I had not heard of the cases to which he refers; I had not heard of ex-service men losing their positions and being replaced by women. The reason I speak of the matter is that the intergovernmental inspection board was constituted by virtue of an order in council which was recommended by myself after negotiations with the British government. The situation in Canada was that we were doing inspection of all sorts of

War Appropriation Bill
munitions; the British were doing inspection of all sorts of munitions. That inspection is a highly technical job.
Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury)i: Does the minister mean they were overlapping?


James Layton Ralston: They were overlapping; that is just the point. We have, if I remember correctly, something like one thousand people employed in connection with inspection, and I think the British had something like three thousand. The result was that there was duplication; we were inspecting our stuff and they were inspecting theirs-and in the same factory, my colleague the Minister of National Defence for Air, reminds me. It was not a good or businesslike arrangement from the point of view of economy or efficiency. It was much better that men should be trained and have experience in inspecting all the munitions of any particular class which might come off the line; they would be just that much more skilful for having that opportunity.
The result was the proposal that came, I think, from the United Kingdom first. I am not sure about that; my colleague thinks I am wrong and that it came from the dominion government. As I come to recall it now, I think it came from Mr. Chester, who was then master-general of the ordnance. He considered that this duplication was unjustified and inefficient. After considerable negotiation, an arrangement was arrived at whereby the intergovernmental inspection board was established on which Canada was given equal representation with the United Kingdom, and that, notwithstanding the fact that, at the most, 25 per cent I would think of the material that was being inspected was for Canada and at least 75 per cent for the United Kingdom. Hon. members will realize that that board operates not only in Canada but also in the United States in respect of both United Kingdom and Canadian purchases there, as my hon. friend has indicated by the fact that some of these men were given opportunity to go to the United States. The board was operating under the chairmanship of General Locke who was chairman of the British inspection mission. At present Canada has two representatives and the United Kingdom the same number. The board is being increased by the addition of one member from each side representing each party. They have authority to hire the employees, and some provision is made with regard to rates of wages. Let me point out that in a large measure the British are paying the shot, because the arrangement provides that the costs of the board are divided proportionately to the value of the goods which are inspected.
Therefore, the British are perhaps much more interested in the amount being paid for operating expenses including salaries than is Canada.
Having said that, may I say to my hon. friend that my department has two representatives on that board, and the Department of National Defence for Air will have one, I expect shortly. I cannot give the committee any undertaking that anything will be done in respect of the cases my hon. friend has mentioned, because I do not know the circumstances, and the board conducts its own operations. However, I do give the committee the undertaking that I shall be very glad to bring my hon. friend's representations to the attention of the chairman of the board in order that he may ascertain just what the circumstances are. _ I yield to no one in my desire to see that ex-service men are employed as far as possible. The question asked by my hon. friend gives some indication of the difficulties of government. He protested against the hiring of women to replace men, while the hon. member who preceded him put up strong advocacy of the replacing of men by women in connection with our war effort.
The hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) spoke with regard to the utilization of the women of Canada in our war effort. May I say that the Department of National Defence and the government generally have the greatest appreciation of the offers which have been made by the women of Canada in connection with our war effort. But I do not think they realize, and I do not think the committee realizes how limited is the possibility of employing women to replace men in the army services. This does not mean that a study has not been made of this matter. When I went overseas last fall I made a most thorough examination of the situation over there in order to ascertain what organizations had been set up in connection with which the government had anything to do. I brought back full particulars, and a complete memorandum with regard to the whole matter has been prepared. I just wish to assure my hon. friend that the matter has not escaped our attention.
This memorandum shows that the replacement of men by women in the army service in Canada could be carried out only to the extent of about 1,500 in the year. That figure is quite small compared with the number of ladies who would like to do war work. My hon. friend will realize that there are a limited number of suitable occupations. Some could be taken on as motor drivers or as cooks in permanent camps and in clerical duties, but the number would be limited. The

War Appropriation Bill
situation with regard to stenographers in uniform and stenographers out of uniform has certain difficulties. There is some clerical work that women might do, but any clerical work having to do with field formations could not be done by ladies. We must have trained men who are able to go into the field to do this administration work.


Mr. GREEN:: Would that be in connection with the active or reserve army?


James Layton Ralston: I am referring to all
possibilities in the army service where women might be placed, both active and reserve. I have had ladies call on me from Winnipeg, Montreal, Victoria and other points, and I imagine that many of my colleagues have had the same experience. I realize how patriotic these ladies are in their desire to do war work. My colleague, the Minister of National War Services (Mr. Gardiner) has had the matter under full consideration, and I expect that before very long we shall be able to announce the best method of taking care of this situation. As far as taking full advantage of the offers of these ladies is concerned, my- hon. friend must remember that much as we may wish to avail ourselves of all offers, there are many people who cannot be engaged directly in war work. Someone must be doing the other work. I do not think it can be taken as a reflection upon the government or upon the war effort of the people of Canada when it is realized that everyone who desires to be directly engaged in war work, cannot be so engaged.
In order to let hon. members fully into the situation, I might add that there is some question as to whether a woman's corps should be a civilian organization or whether it should be organized within the Department of National Defence. If my hon. friend has studied the situation in England, he will know that in that country only a limited number is attached to the services. However, the great body of the women who are working in connection with the war belong to women's volunteer organizations which are completely outside the departments of government. The question is not a simple one, and notwithstanding my hon. friend's vigorous advocacy, I say to him that many questions will have to be considered before wTe can formulate a policy. When I tell him that the maximum number of women who could be employed is only 1,500, he will realize that there have been some things which have taken our attention in the last few weeks, which have made it necessary at least to postpone the complete consideration of this question to this time.


Howard Charles Green: Has consideration been
given to the formation of a women's land army?


James Layton Ralston: I may say that in the
memorandum consideration was not given to that. Consideration was given to the utilization of women in connection with the army services.


Howard Charles Green: Has the other matter not
been considered?


James Layton Ralston: I am quite satisfied that
my colleague, the Minister of National War Services, has had that under consideration.


Colin William George Gibson: I should like to make a
few remarks in reply to the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) concerning the inspection staff at Hamilton. Munitions were being made prior to the war at the National Steel Car company. Upon war breaking out, the British authorities increased their orders at that plant and set up a staff to provide inspectors for the shells that were being sent overseas. The officials were careful to take on as inspectors only men who had had overseas service, and we in Hamilton were careful to see that returned soldiers were so employed. Later on, when the British government began to expand the production of shells in other plants, they had to increase the number of inspectors. These men were not taken into the National Steel Car company for the purpose of acting as inspectors in that plant forever; they were brought in to be trained, and they signed an undertaking that when they had been trained they would go to whatever plant they were sent.
When the time came for these men to be sent to other industrial plants which were making munitions and which required their services, a certain number of them refused to leave Hamilton. They did not wish to leave their families and break up their homes, and rather than move from Hamilton they decided to resign and look for other employment. This matter was taken up with the officials by myself and other people, and we were told that they were willing to provide transportation for the men and to move their families, but that they must employ the men in outside factories; they could not be retained in Hamilton. They pointed out that they did not wish to go to the expense of training inspectors and have them resign when they had completed their training. That was the last thing in the world they wanted; they wanted these men to go and do the work for which they had been trained. I have had assurance from General Locke, the chairman of the inspection board, that any man who finished his training

War Appropriation Bill
would be given inspection work if he was willing to go where he was sent, but General Locke could not give assurance that the men would be employed in Hamilton, because, that is not the job for which they were .taken on and trained.


Clarence Gillis: I think the minister is more familiar with this question than I am. I had only a short visit there when I talked with these men. Is it true that the original understanding by these inspectors was that in the event of their being sent out to other parts of Canada, a subsistence allowance would be paid to them, in addition to their regular wages? If they were asked to go to some other part of Canada or to the United States, the subsistence allowance would disappear, and the only change in the rate would be six cents an hour.


James Layton Ralston: Is my hon. friend asking whether I know that was the arrangement?


Clarence Gillis: I am asking the Minister of National Revenue.


Colin William George Gibson: I cannot say that I know what the arrangement was, but I do know that if they were sent to the United States, they were given an allowance to take care of United States exchange. That arrangement has been in operation right along.


Clarence Gillis: The original understanding was that subsistence allowance would be paid. Then, after training, when some of them were approached to go to other parts of Canada or to the United States, they were informed that this had been changed. The difference of six cents an hour, if a man had to move into the United States, would not be a fair proposition.
The Minister of National Defence has stated that I was protesting against the employment of women. I do not wish to get in wrong with the women. I have no objection to the employment of women in any enterprise in Canada, where such employment is necessary, and where it will release men for more important duties, or where they will take the place of men going overseas. I am informed, however, that what happened in Hamilton was that men were laid off and placed in the ranks of the unemployed, and that girls with no responsibility were put in their places.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Is my hon. friend speaking about inspectors being laid off?


Clarence Gillis: Yes. I understand these men were replaced by girls, and, in some instances, girls who had no obligations. Those men who went off their jobs in Hamilton were relegated to the ranks of the unemployed, and in future will Bp recipients of relief. The
services of women should not be utilized in that way, and I protest against it. When, however, the employment of women is necessary so as to relieve men to perform more important work, that is all right.


Colin William George Gibson: My hon. friend is going rather far when he says those men were relegated to the ranks of the unemployed. They were employed with the National Steel Car corporation. There are, however, other industries in Hamilton looking for men to-day. In the meantime the majority of those men will have found employment in other industries busily engaged in that city.


Clarence Gillis: I know at least one man who told me he was unemployed for twelve weeks; that he had not had a day's work in that time, and that when he did get employment, it was through the efforts of the men themselves. The men were working full time, seven days a week, and they made an arrangement among themselves so that the men in turn would take a shift off one night to give this young man an opportunity to work. That lasted only a short time. I understand that he is now receiving work as a temporary watchman, but he was unemployed for twelve weeks and he told me that there were others in the same position.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Would the Minister of Labour tell us what is the exact jurisdictional position with respect to this inspectional service employed under the joint board of which we have heard here, having regard to the policy laid down by the government with regard to labour, hours of labour, wages and so forth in Canada? In other words, are they without the pale of the jurisdiction of the Department of Labour, on their own, so to speak; or has an effort been made to have the British government conform to Canadian standards in that respect? What is the position, so that we may have it concretely before us?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I would answer that,
generally speaking, the jurisdiction of the government of Canada over labour is limited by the decisions of the judicial committee of the privy council in 1924, I think it was, in the case of the Toronto Electric Commissioners-


Richard Burpee Hanson: Where the Lemieux act was declared ultra vires?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Quite so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But we are at war, and we are governed now by the War Measures Act.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I would say in answer to my hon. friend's definite question that the
War Appropriation Bill

government of Canada has definite jurisdiction, whether it is a war industry under the control of the Canadian government or one that has orders from the British government. In other words, I would say that we have complete control in the matter of jurisdiction in connection with all war industries.


Richard Burpee Hanson: And in connection with the inspectional services of the joint board?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I would say that that follows naturally.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, I would think so.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend will understand that most of the employees handed over to the board were civil servants or officers already employed by the government.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: The simple fact that impresses itself upon me as a result of this discussion is this: that Canada is not short of labour. Canada has a surplus of labour, and Canada has a surplus of raw materials or resources. Canada can therefore increase her production of practically any commodity of which she desires to increase production. This means that all we have been listening to for six months now from this government about a threatened shortage of labour was just a little bit beside the point.


Colin William George Gibson: If my hon. friend would go to Hamilton and see the new industries, the big plants that are being put up, he would realize that when they are completed shortly, any surplus of labour that appears to be there at the present time will be completely absorbed and there will, in addition, be a demand for outside labour to come in.


John Horne Blackmore: The point that
impresses me is this. Here are great numbers of women from one end of this country to the other, and in many cities of Canada there are thousands of men looking for work. There must be tens of thousands of people who have never registered as being unemployed, but who would be willing and able and glad to work if they could get the chance to work. At the present time, however, so far as I can gather-and I wish to be perfectly fair to the government-the government does not seem to have any proper, coordinated method, any definite, effective way of getting the people who wish to work in contact with the jobs that need to be done.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, March 20, 1941.