1941-11-04

[Stage Direction]
PROCEDURE IN PRESENTATION OF STATEMENTS on Canada's war effort and DISCUSSION THEREON
Right Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I might perhaps report to the house the outcome of the conference which was held yesterday afternoon between the leader of the opposition, the acting leaders of the two other parties in the house and myself with regard to a suggested procedure to facilitate the business of this concluding part of the session.
As the house is aware, it is the privilege of the prime minister on the orders of the day being called when no question is before the chair to make a statement to the house on a matter of policy or on any important matter. A similar opportunity is extended by courtesy to the hon. member who is the official leader
of the opposition. Yesterday I made a statement to the house reviewing the international situation. It did not purport and was not intended to go further than that. To-day the leader of the opposition desires to make a statement in regard to matters of policy or other matters of general concern and interest. A similar privilege is not, under our rules, accorded to leaders of groups. But if the house is agreeable to having its sitting continued in committee of the whole so as to allow greater freedom of discussion, an arrangement might easily be made whereby, by grant of special permission by unanimous consent, following the leader of the opposition, the leaders of the two groups, the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation and the Social Credit or New Democracy groups, would have the opportunity of also making statements of a like character. I might say we were all of the opinion that this arrangement would be the best. The house would1 continue to sit in committee of the whole, and the ministers in turn would make their statements on the progress of Canada's war effort. This procedure., if acceptable to the house, would enable hon. members to ask questions and would permit as full discussion as the house might wish in a way that would not be possible with the Speaker in the chair.
In order to make the discussion itself as relevant as possible it is thought that it would be best to have the ministers make their statements one after the other until matters of interest with respect to the war effort of the administration during the period of adjournment have been stated to the house more or less in their entirety. Hon. members would then have before them information which otherwise they might be obliged to solicit by means of question and answer. When the statements have been presented it is proposed that we then begin such discussion as may be desired upon the first statement, and, after discussion upon the matters to which it relates, proceed to the other statements in such order as may seem most advisable. For example, this afternoon, if the house agrees to the procedure proposed, the leader of the opposition, who will speak upon the orders of the day with the Speaker in the chair, will be followed in committee of the Whole by the acting leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation party, and he will be followed by the acting leader of the New Democracy party. On the government side it is proposed to have the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) make a statement, to be followed possibly by the Minister of National War Services (Mr. Thorson). The government would wish to

Privilege-Mr. Roy

have the ministers of defence speak at a time which will enable the three ministers to speak as nearly as may be possible in consecutive order. As hon. members are aware, the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) returned to Ottawa only last night; we would wish to have defence matters discussed together. This arrangement would afford the minister at least some opportunity to prepare himself.
If these suggestions are acceptable to the house, after the leader of the opposition has made his statement, I shall move that the Speaker leave the chair and will suggest that the sitting be continued in committee of the whole with the Deputy Speaker in the chair.
Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition: The statement just made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) I think substantially covers the arrangement made yesterday afternoon. It will be recognized that the observance of this arrangement depends almost entirely upon consent; I do not see how we can go on at all unless we come to some agreement. Therefore, while all the details of the matter are not exactly to my liking, I hope the house will concur in what the Prime Minister has suggested.



ST. LAWRENCE WATERWAY BEQUEST FOB STATEMENT AS TO PRESENT POSITION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition):: Before the next order of business is called may I ask the Prime Minister to give to the house and the country, to-day if possible, a brief statement on the present position of the St. Lawrence waterway proposal. If he cannot give that statement to-day, will he be good enough to do so to-morrow?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should prefer to make the statement to-morrow. My understanding at the moment is that the agreement has not yet been reported out of committee in Washington, and that therefore it is impossible to say just when or if the agreement itself will be passed, However, I shall make inquiries between now and to-morrow and give the house a further statement then.



PRIVILEGE-MR. ROY STATEMENT OF MEMBER FOR GASPE AS TO HIS CHANGE OF SEAT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. S. ROY (Gaspe):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege in order to

make a statement with regard to my change of seat in this house, I am sure the house will be interested to know why I intend to follow hereafter an independent course in this parliament.
A political party is usually composed of men with the same principles, and among whom there is some friendship or brotherly spirit. The Liberal-Conservative party founded by the MacNab-Morin coalition in 1854 was a real partnership composed of some Quebec moderate Liberals and Conservatives, who wished to wipe out old dissensions and form, with Ontario high Tories and moderate Liberals, a party with Conservative tendencies. Mutual respect was at the base of this union of different groups, and as long as MacNab and Macdonald were at the helm the aims and desiderata of French Canadians were not ignored when the party's policies were considered. Friction sometimes occurred, as I am sure it now occurs in the Liberal party, but we managed to preserve mutual respect and to keep a reasonable share in the appointments of high officers in the civil service and in the building of such public works as were required for the trade and commerce of the dominion.
The bonne entente between the two main elements of the Liberal-Conservative party gradually deteriorated. As time went on, French Canadian influence dwindled in the party. This was largely due to the demise of Sir John A. Macdonald. The Liberal party was strongly organized, and it manoeuvred the Conservative party into becoming an English Canadian party in which French Canadian sympathy was forcibly thrown into the background. The present Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) cleverly followed Sir Wilfrid's tactics, and the present Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) is using the Minister of Justice for all he is worth. Sir Robert Borden and Mr. Meighen were never able to control the element which is bent on wrecking our efforts to make Canada a country in which three million French Canadians will be considered. Mr. Bennett, now Lord Bennett, was the man who said we ought to be pleased with the concessions granted to us by English speaking Canadians. He went back on the principles of the party which had put him in power, and did more than all the Liberals put together to shake public confidence in political conservatism.
Any French Canadian member of this house who has mixed with the Conservative party as it now exists must realize that he is not a member of their political family. He is at

The War-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury)
best a tolerated stranger, accepted from necessity and looked at with a certain degree of curiosity. In the opinion of Conservative members he is and always will be a poor relation. His views of Canada are not their views; his ambition for more French Canadian influence in our public life is not their ambition. They are firm in the opinion that we French Canadians are a source of trouble in their endeavours to make Canada an American England. There is no friendship or sympathy between them and us. I may add, however, that a good proportion of English speaking Canadians, particularly the young generation, show us more sympathy, because they have a real sense of true Canadianism.
I have decided to leave them, and I did not do so hastily. For the past few months I have been in consultation with people in Quebec who all expressed the opinion that it is useless for the province of Quebec to make any further attempts to work hand in hand with the Conservative party. Warm sympathy, the main element, is lacking. You all remember the story of the man who called upon an acquaintance. He was first told that the man was not at home; he then forced the door but he was received with a heap of abuse. He went a third time, when he was taken by the scruff of the neck and kicked down the verandah. He then said, "Well, I don't think that man wants to see me." Take out the violence and I think you will see there is something like that in the attitude of the Conservative organizers toward Quebec Conservatives.
It is my intention to stand at the next general election as a Canadian desirous of contributing, in my humble capacity, to the progress of the whole dominion without racial or religious prejudice, recognizing the rights of all citizens and fighting against bigotry wherever it is found.



SOLDIERS' DEPENDENTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. G. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the government if they will consider granting increased assistance to families of enlisted men, consisting of more than two children, and also whether they have given consideration to the granting of a cost of living bonus to the families of enlisted men.


Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: Consideration is being given to those matters, but I am not in a position to make any statement on them at the moment.
14873-256*



CANADA'S WAR EFFORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the importance of having Canada's war effort more widely known in the United States than it is at present, will the Prime Minister tell the house whether it is the government's intention at an early date to establish a Canadian bureau of information in New York?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, the matter of how best to have Canada's war effort appreciated in the United States is one to which we have been giving full consideration. No final decision has been reached as yet as to the particular method or places in which that aim may best be accomplished. Personally I cannot think of a better means of making Canada's war effort known in the United States and elsewhere than to have our own press give a full appreciation of it. I believe the press of the United States obtain most of their information with respect to Canada's war effort from what appears in our own press. However I do see the necessity of having information from that source supplemented, and the government is giving attention to the best possible methods.



THE WAR

[Stage Direction]
INTERNATIONAL SITUATION SINCE JUNE 14, 1941- Canada's war effort
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, may I at the outset express to our friend, the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) our pleasure at his safe return from the strenuous and perilous trip upon which he embarked some weeks ago. I am sure all hon, members are glad to see him back looking so well. I hope he has not suffered any ill effects from a journey which I found to be somewhat difficult. I shall not say more than that.
Yesterday when the house was discussing the reasons for our being here I took occasion to place on record what was my understanding when we left here in June last. I had assumed as a matter of fact that when we resumed our sittings yesterday we would do so for the purpose of prorogation, and the opening of another session. For reasons which now appear as a matter of record, and which I have not challenged-because either course is satisfactory to me-the decision has been otherwise. I shall not traverse that matter again,
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The War-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury)
further than to say that while it may be difficult to regularize discussion at this stage of the session, without there being any specific proposals before the chair, there should not be the slightest appearance of attempt on anyone's part to choke off discussion or to close this part of the session in an unduly short period of time.
I am not unmindful, however, of the fact that this has already been a long session, not only in point of elapsed time but in point of time actually spent on the floor of the house. Unduly to prolong discussion merely for the sake of exchanging views and not for that of doing business, while it might add to the sum total of our information respecting the state of the country, the government's war effort, international affairs and the like, in my opinion would not be desirable unless we could accomplish something by so doing. I shall not say more on that point.
Yesterday afternoon we listened with much interest to a statement from the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) in which he outlined to the country the progress of the war since we adjourned in June last, and reviewed the international situation. He dealt with the position of Russia, and aid to that country. He dealt with the position in the middle east and, quite properly in my opinion, with the increasingly difficult position which has developed in the far east, one which I know must be giving those in authority on this side of the Atlantic, as well as those on the other side, increasing concern. I think it was well for the Prime Minister to do that, because it drew to our attention a situation which is likely at any time to become increasingly menacing. I do not say that in an alarming sense, because I have no information on the subject matter. But I believe each of us realizes the importance of watching as closely as possible the situation which has developed on the Pacific front, if I may so describe it, a development due largely I believe to the change in government in the Japanese empire.
Then the Prime Minister gave us his conclusions. As a delineation of current history and of what has taken place since we last met, it was excellent in tone and style and was a fine portrayal of current events. But I must also say that it left me very cold. I was disappointed. I had hoped, and I believe the country had hoped, that after the Prime Minister's visit to England and after his conference over the week-end with the President of the United States, and after being so fully apprised, as he must be, of the international situation, he would have lifted the veil a little and told the house and the country what this government and our great neighbour pro-

pose to do about a situation which by his own account is getting more serious every day.
He warned us that every conceivable means by which freedom can be crushed is to-day being used by Hitler and nazi Germany. I agree. I am glad he gave that warning. And it is timely enough, because even after twenty-seven months of war I fear that Canadians are still too complacent, still not impressed with the dangers of the whole situation, and still sitting remote from the realities of what is occurring in this war-stricken world.
I do not know what more can be done than has been done by members of the government, by public propaganda or by whatever other legitimate means are available, to bring home to the Canadian people a realization of the seriousness of the situation. And yet I feel certain that it has not yet been brought home to them. I wish I could add something to the sum total of knowledge of the people of Canada respecting the seriousness of the situation overseas, and especially in Europe. I shall not say anything about the seriousness of the situation which may confront us from other theatres of possible war.
What the country had expected from the Prime Minister-what I had hoped for, at all events-was some stirring statement of what Canada proposes further to do to meet the menace delineated by him. I had hoped that he would announce proposals for measures designed not only to indicate a recognition of the steadily increasing danger of the situation, but to ensure that every conceivable step would be taken to aid in overcoming it.
It may be that during the course of this short part of the session the Prime Minister and his service ministers will indicate with clarity and with precision what more we should do; and I invite them to do so. But if the Prime Minister will tell the house that because of the necessity for secrecy, especially with respect to one aspect of this menacing situation, it is the view of the government that matters of high policy should not be divulged at this time, then I suggest that a statement to that effect should be made. The Prime Minister should make it clear that matters of high policy to deal with new and threatening menaces are under consideration by the government and will be revealed in due course. But unless some assurance is given I fear that the Prime Minister's message of yesterday will prove to be a great disappointment. I fear that it will be taken as additional evidence of lack of leadership. It must have brought cold comfort, not only to the members of the house but to the country generally.

The War-Mr. Hamon (York-Sunbury)
I do not wish to take up unduly the time of the house; in fact I do not feel that I am capable of making any lengthy or extensive remarks, but I should like to give the house and the country a brief review of the trip which my colleagues and myself made to England in September. May I express to the Prime Minister and those of his cabinet who assisted us in making this journey to England our thanks for their intervention and for making the trip possible. I should like to thank the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) for the valuable suggestions which he made to me during a call which I made upon him just prior to going overseas. Last, but not least, may I publicly give recognition to the civility and courtesy which my colleagues and I received at the hands of Mr. Massey, our high commissioner in London, and his charming wife. I think one of the best lunches that we had over there was the one we had at the officers' club, which I think is on Cockspur street, as a guest of Mrs. Massey, when she treated us to good old-fashioned Canadian pork and beans. Mr. Massey found himself perhaps a little restricted because our journey to England had been delayed and he had made other arrangements, but I do want to make this public recognition of his kindness to us while we were overseas.
Through the Canadian headquarters and the good offices of Mr. Massey it was made possible for us to meet all the members of the British cabinet whom we felt we should meet or could meet in the limited time at our disposal. Mr. Massey was good enough to introduce us to the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, Lord Cranborne, and from then on we had a succession of interviews with important cabinet ministers, some of which I shall mention and some of which I shall not. We had the high privilege of a most satisfactory interview with the Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill. Without question he is the national hero of the British people. Having listened to him speak in the House of Commons on September 30, I feel certain that he is giving the leadership that the British people require at this time.
We had the good fortune of having an interesting conversation with a former resident of my province, Lord Beaverbroolc, the present Minister of Supply. This interview was just on the eve of his departure for Moscow. He told us many interesting things. We had the good fortune to have a conversation lasting more than an hour and a half with Mr. Ernest Bevin, the Minister of Labour. He told us in some detail of the activities of organized labour in Great Britain, and explained the situation which confronted the
nation at the time the national government was formed, as well as the situation as it is to-day. I was greatly impressed by the strength of this dynamic gentleman, as well as with the strength of Lord Beaverbrook. The latter seems to get things done with such celerity as actually to astonish the British civil servant.
We had most interesting interviews with the service ministers, if I may use the term which we have developed in Canada, especially with the Secretary of State for War, an outstanding young man who recently joined the ministry and is now in charge of the war office. He has a most realistic idea of the conditions which confront that great nation. He gave us a great deal of information with respect to the British army at or prior to the outbreak of the war, after Dunkirk, and at the present time. We also had the opportunity of an interview with the foreign secretary, Mr. Anthony Eden, and with the three chiefs of staff.
These interviews lasted for nearly a week, and as a result of them we acquired a mass of information. In nearly every case it was distinctly understood that the information imparted should be confidential, and confidential it shall remain. Had it not been so understood, we could not have obtained as clear a picture as we did during the course of the ten or a dozen interviews which we had during that first week in London. This means that I cannot give the authority for any opinions which I may express about the position in England, nor should I be called upon to give chapter and verse as proof of any assertion I may make. I assume that this will derogate from the value of the impressions or the expressions of opinion which I may give on this or on other occasions. Be that as it may, I wish to make it perfectly clear that any expressions of opinion, or statements of fact on my part are the result of impressions that were gained in many quarters and are not to be considered as binding upon anyone over there. They will be mine and mine alone, and I must assume responsibility for them.
As a result of the kindness of Major-General Price Montague and Air Commodore Stevenson we were given every facility to see the Canadian corps and the Canadian divisions in England and some of our Canadian flyers. We came away greatly impressed by the Canadian divisions, especially the first division, which has been over there now for nearly two years. We had the advantage, my colleague and I, of a long and earnest conversation with General McNaughton. May I say, as a result of expressions which I heard fall from the lips
4062	COMMONS
The War-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury)
of many men, that General McNaughton occupies to-day a high and commanding position in the counsels of the empire, and very deservedly so. I want it to be known that every opportunity was given to us, having regard to the limited amount of time at our disposal, to see the things which we desired to see. I could regale the house with many human-interest stories and tales of things that happened while we were in England, such, for instance, as the thrill I felt at dining with a distinguished admiral in a mighty ship, lying in am historic port, and the kindly reception I received from a revered archbishop in a famous cathedral in England, and the prayers that he said for the strangers within his gates. I could not possibly ask the house to take the time to listen.
May I just tell' the house about a Canadian boy from my own part of the country whom we saw at an airport in central England. He had been in a very difficult position during the depression years in this country in 1936 and 1937. He wanted to get into the Royal Canadian Air Force but did not have the necessary educational qualifications. He wanted to become what he is to-day, a great flyer. I could tell of his attempts to get into the Royal Air Force, and of how he wrote to England on his own account and was told that if he could produce educational qualifications equal to junior matriculation, then, other things being satisfactory and equal, he could come to England at his own expense and they might enlist him. He was able to produce the educational qualifications required, and he crossed the Atlantic to England, not as a passenger on a luxury liner but working on a cattle boat. He enlisted in the Royal Air Force in 1938. To-day that young man is a squadron leader. He bears on his breast, pinned there by his majesty himself, the Distinguished Flying Cross, for valour. He told me that he had been over Germany in recent months no less than forty times, and that he had often led his squadron over various countries of occupied Europe. So far he had come through without a scratch. I was exceedingly proud of that young man, and it will be no betrayal of emotion if I say to you that I myself breathed a humble prayer that he and the others like him might be preserved to the empire and to his loved ones.
I should like to make this further preliminary observation, and perhaps I should have done so before. We did not go to England with any idea of party advantage. We went there out of a sincere desire to learn at first hand what the situation was,

and then to find out what more, in our opinion, Canada could do. I should also like to make this perfectly clear, that we did not go to England to disparage the war effort of Canada, and we did not do so. Let that be abundantly clear. No one will ever be able to say that either in private conversation or publicly did any member of our party attempt to disparage, in any degree, the war effort of our own country.
Neither did we go over there, and I want to make this equally clear, to misrepresent the attitude of the government of Canada. The government of Canada represents the people of Canada for the time being on a party basis, and whether we like it or not, the government of Canada speaks for the people of Canada not only here but over there. We in Canada, of course, have the right while here to make representations about the government's effort. But I assure the house that I did not by any word I uttered, nor did any of my colleagues, attempt in any degree to misrepresent the government of Canada while we were in England. We went over there at our own expense, outside of the mere item of transportation across the water.
Perhaps I am dwelling too long on matters of minor importance. At this point may I pay a simple tribute to the people of Britain for the spirit and courage they have demonstrated during all the adversity they have encountered during these two years of war. Make no mistake about it; the people of Britain, in certain areas particularly, have had one terrible time. They have suffered, and they have had fear instilled into them to a certain degree. Hon. gentlemen must have read the graphic story by Mr. Grattan O'Leary which appeared in the press the other day describing the bombing he encountered at Bournemouth. Luckily or unluckily we did not experience anything like that.
The British people, instead of being demoralized, as was anticipated by the Germans, by their experiences in the terrible blitz which was showered on them, especially last spring, have come through their time of trial more determined than ever that they will never be conquered. I pay tribute to the spirit of "no surrender" which animates every man we talked to, whether he was the highest in Whitehall or a humble dweller in the east end of London, in Poplar or Stepney, where we spent a whole forenoon looking at the damage that had been done.
No peace talk, no compromise, no deterioration of the race is in evidence there; and yet they are just as mindful, as I would have you be mindful, that the end is not yet. They are as sure as anything can be that when the

The War-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury)
great conflagration that is taking place now on the eastern front is settled one way or the other, Hitler will return to the attempted invasion of Britain, and that invasion will be accompanied by a more terrible blitzkrieg from the air and from every available branch of German arms than the British people anticipated in days gone by. And they do not intend to be conquered or to be invaded. The last thing that Mr. Churchill said to us when we left him on a lovely Sunday afternoon was this: "Better to die than to be conquered, and we do not intend to be conquered."
What is the position in England to-day? They have recovered from the position that existed after Dunkirk. I should like to make it clear that we were given full information with respect to the losses on the continent at the time of Dunkirk. This may be a commonplace to most hon. gentlemen, but Britain had sent over to the continent the finest army that was ever assembled in England. We are assured of that. It was supplied with the best equipment that was ever assembled for an expeditionary force leaving England, and when, after Dunkirk and the fall of France, the cost was counted, it was found that practically all of that equipment had been lost. Very little was brought out. Fortunately through the efforts of the navy, the merchant marine and what not, they were able to bring out from France the greater part of the personnel of that army. But they lost in prisoners and wounded many thousands of the flower of that army, and they had to begin all over again.
I discussed this aspect of the matter with Mr. Bevin, and you will find that he made a statement with reference to it in a speech which he delivered in August, 1941, before the Trade Union Congress. It is therefore in no sense confidential. When you come to analyse the position between Dunkirk and Christmas, 1940, and what was accomplished between those two dates by the army, the navy, the air force and the merchant marine- about which so little is heard, but which has done so much-and also by the working people of Britain, is it too much to say, as Mr. Bevin said in the speech to which I am referring, "Verily, the civilization of the world was saved by reason of the opportunity for recovery given at that time."
I do believe that is the exact position. And while I mention the working people of Britain last, I should not like to have it thought that this indicates the measure of their achievement in connection with this resurrection of the equipment of the British army. Perhaps it should be placed first, because without the cooperation of the trade unions, of the labouring people of England, men and women, this would not have been possible. I pay them that tribute.
Britain to-day has its professional army-I will not say how many hundreds of thousands. This professional army includes the Canadian corps, and it is as well trained to-day for defensive purposes as it can possibly be having regard to the fact that all equipment has not been on hand all of the time. That professional army is a mobile force which constitutes the first line of defence against invasion. In addition there is the territorial army of two million men or more, scattered from Land's End to John o' Groats, and comprising all the services. You see them everywhere, at every cross-roads.
We were privileged to go into some of the coastal defence areas. From every headland, from every crag, on every beach, we saw these territorials, many of them officered by men who are not professional army men at all; and there they stand prepared against invasion. Together with the professional army they are to-day the army of Britain. But I would not have you think that that is all. In addition to that professional army, that territorial army, there is a vast army numbering literally millions in the employ of the state, some in uniform and others not, most of them men, many of them women, doing civil defence work of the utmost importance. Literally speaking there are millions of men and women forming the defence of Britain at this time, and because of the spirit of these men and women I am satisfied that invasion can never be successfully accomplished. Defence has been built up tt>
a high degree of efficiency. The whole preparation has been marshalled for defence and not offence. That is the situation to-day, and I think that is as far as it has gone. I am not dealing of course with offensive operations in other theatres of war such as Africa and the near east. I am dealing only with the position of Britain.
There was borne in upon us one further fact, namely, that it is the general opinion in Britain that Britain cannot win this war by bombing Germany and occupied Europe. That I think is conceded, and once you concede it the effect is important. I do not wish to minimize the disruption wrought by the nightly attacks of our magnificent airmen. But even so, informed opinion believes that Germany cannot be defeated in that way. There is full recognition in Britain of the fact that the war cannot be brought to a decisive conclusion without the invasion of enemy territory.
Britain's main preparations and main objectives, the training of her armies, the
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The War-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury)
training of our Canadian contingents, have been largely if not wholly based on defensive tactics. To contemplate the invasion of Europe requires an entirely new conception of a total or all-out form of warfare. And what an heroic conception! Britain capnot possibly do it alone. With the united efforts of Britain, the dominions, our great neighbour to the south and all the democracies of the world, aided if you will by any totalitarian state that is willing to join us, even then the task is colossal. I do not like to suggest even for a moment that it is not possible, but it takes a stout heart to contemplate an invasion of Europe. Hon. members who are students of history will recall the days of the Napoleonic wars. Well, multiply Napoleon's strength many times and you have Hitler. Furthermore, in those days Britain had allies in Europe. What has she to-day? It is difficult to say she has any. What is the situation? Civilian populations unarmed and dominated by nazism-nazism in control of the entire European continent from the Pyrenees to Norway-yes, and if he wanted them, Spain, Portugal and all the rest. Continental Europe from the Atlantic to Russia is under his control. That gives the picture of the present nazi domination of continental Europe.
What is to be done about it? Well, I have no doubt that the battle of Britain will be won. Is that to be the end? I ask that question in all seriousness. I asked it in Britain, and the answer that came back was: No, that is not to be the end. But if it were the end, what flows from that? Hitler wins. In two years, five years, ten years or at some time the whole thing will have to begin over again. By that time he will have recruited his whole resources and will have only Britain and this north American continent to oppose him. That is the situation which confronts the whole world. It is appalling to think that this could be the end. That is not the spirit of Britain to-day. But to those who are clamouring for an invasion of Europe I say that in my Spinion, to ask Britain to start a campaign in western Europe to-day is to ask the impossible. Russia will have to be aided, but in some other way. And Canada will have to do her part.
Now, what do they contemplate? They contemplate invasion-when or where or how I do not know; probably they do not themselves. What competent observers contemplate is this: a superior force of men, trained in offensive operations, equipped with offensive weapons, an overwhelming force, which, once established in Europe, will roll on irresistibly. That is the vision. That is what Hitler has to-day. They contemplate that they will have

to have something bigger and better and more mobile. Once a landing is effected it will have to be supported by lines of communication by land, sea and air, which cannot be interrupted. That in itself is a gigantic task. That is not now possible, but it is their objective. It can be attained, as I said, only by the combined efforts of Britain, the dominions, our great neighbour to the south. Nothing less will suffice.
This super-force of men and machines is not yet in being. The conjunction of all these factors is not yet accomplished. It will take time and effort and much treasure and the best equipment and strategic ability that can be produced. I am confident that, gigantic as is the task, heroic as is the conception, the genius and will of the British people and their gallant allies, present and future, will accomplish it.
What of Canada and her contributions. We have in being or in process of development six divisions, some overseas, some in Canada, some well trained for defensive purposes, some not so well trained. The task of maintaining them at full numerical strength is for the government of Canada. So far we have a policy of voluntary enlistment for overseas service, with partial national service for home defence. I think that is a fair statement. Six divisions at this time is certainly not too many. Six divisions at the end of the second year, fully trained and equipped, would have been a fair contribution. Comparisons of course are odious, but we have to remember that we are, stronger in numbers now than we were twenty-five years ago and stronger in potentiality. I am not complaining that so far we have set up only six divisions; I doubt whether we could have done much more, having regard to the equipment available. But will that suffice? If Canada's maximum effort and man-power is to be confined to six divisions, not all overseas, and a home defence army composed of drafted mien, then possibly the voluntary system of recruiting will do. I doubt it, but we Should hear from the minister just what the problem is with respect to recruiting- I intend to return to that later. My own view is-and I am giving it only as my own view-that if the invasion of the continent is to be successfully accomplished Canada must provide more than six divisions, must provide an ever-increasing volume of man-power adequately trained and equipped for the offensive. Is it not reasonable to suggest that these men should be provided now, should be enlisted at once, trained and equipped as soon as possible, as an effective fighting force?

The War-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury)
When I say at once I do not mean to-day or to-morrow, but should not that be the objective of the government?
In a recent appeal for recruits after the June and July campaign the adjutant-general said:
The war can be won only by man-power. Our army must have more and more men, the best and finest men of the dominion, trained to fighting pitch, skilled in the handling of every weapon.
Frequently and emphatically the Prime Minister has stated that the only way to wage total war is by total effort. With that we all agree; but does not total effort require the complete utilization of every resource in manpower as well as materials? Until every man available for service in the armed forces has been enlisted in the armed forces can we honestly claim a total effort? Recently the Secretary of State (Mr. Casgrain) made a recruiting speech, in which he said:
Canada needs soldiers and needs them in greater numbers than they were needed in the last war.
If that be true, as I believe it is, then is it not obvious that our duty is to provide that strength now, or as soon as possible? In the last war, if I recall aright, the total number of Canada's enlisted men was 595,000. If, as the Secretary of State and I believe, men are needed in greater numbers than in the last war, I suggest that this is the time to enlist and equip men if we are to join in the invasion of Europe and help end the war. My hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) made a speech, in the course of which, according to the Canadian Press report, he said:
Canada can muster 1,000,000 men for the armed forces and still attain the necessary production in farm and factory.
That is a pretty high figure. My hon. friend was Minister of National War Services for a time, and I do not know of anyone who should better know our potentialities in regard to man-power. At all events that was his statement. If that be true-and I believe it is-is not this the time to muster these men? If we have a potential man-power capacity of a million men, how can it be said that we are now engaged in a total, allout effort to win a total war when we have mustered less than one-third that number of men for active service?
This issue of man-power must be faced realistically. Total effort requires total enlistment at once of all available man-power, whatever system may be used to enlist them. At the bar of history Canada will be judged by the manner in which she responded to the challenge to provide man-power, not by the t4873-257
tenacity with which her government clung to any particular system of recruiting. Canadians have the same capacity for service and sacrifice as Britons. Canadians will not shrink from any service or sacrifice, and if this war goes on much longer they had better be prepared not to shrink, because it is going to get much worse, I think, before it gets better. Nor is it conceivable that they will fail to do their duty when the need for man-power is placed before them. Has not the time arrived when the government of Canada, in the light of present day conditions, in the light of what is contemplated for the future, should review the whole position in relation to man-power? I urge the government to do so, and at once.
That, I think, is the magnitude of the task that lies before Canadians. History teaches that victory depends upon a superior number of men, with superior training and superior equipment; and upon Canada falls a large measure of the responsibility for creating such a force in this war. Henceforth we must be guided by the strategy of offence. We must realize that the only defence against Hitler is attack. Wars are won not by defence but by attack; and if that attack is to be successful we must have superiority in every respect. That superiority can be achieved, but only if we use all our resources. So that my message to the House of Commons and the people of Canada to-day is that the salvation of Canada, of the empire and of the democracies, the defeat of Hitler, demands at once an infinitely greater contribution than we have made thus far; a greater contribution in material resources as well as a greater contribution in trained and equipped man-power. And I suggest that there is the opportunity of helping to create a force such as I have outlined, here in Canada,
Now I should like to put a query to the Prime Minister and the members of the administration. We have declared for a total war. What is the objective of the government of Canada? Neither the Prime Minister nor anyone else, as far as I can recall, has stated our objective in terms of material things or in man-power. Is the sky the limit, or has the government in mind an objective in relation to either of these things? The Prime Minister has spoken eloquently of a total effort for a total war. W7hat does he mean by that? I think he should enlighten the Canadian people as to his exact meaning. Or are we to take his words at their face value? If we are to have a total war effort, what are the means to be adopted to bring it about? Can we safely rely on the voluntary system of enlistment, or should we not review the whole policy? What is the position to-day

4066	COMMONS
The War-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury)
with regard to voluntary enlistment? I have not before me the figures of the monthly quotas required, but I understand that the quota for military district No. 7, which is the New Brunswick district-and which I am proud to say has filled its quota at all times up to the present-is something like 450 men a month. I am speaking subject to correction, of course, because I have not verified the figures. But I am told that since this drive for recruits has been in progress that district has enlisted only a little more than half that number. I frankly confess that I am astonished at that. I had thought that New Brunswick, where there is no national war work of any consequence going on, would have been able to produce at least 450 men each month by the voluntary system, if the information which I have just given the house is correct. I regret it very much indeed. What is the situation throughout Canada? I am going to ask the minister if he will tell us, when he makes his statement, what are the monthly objectives, and a little later I will have some further questions which I shall leave with him.
Do we know what are our potentialities in Canada? In August, 1940, we had a national registration which cost us over a million dollars. So far as I know it has been used only for the purposes of the four months' training plan. Perhaps that statement is too sweeping; but do we know, in terms of numbers, what are our potentialities in regard to man-power for war, for industrial production and for agricultural purposes?
Now I want to make a personal reference. Becently I made a speech in Toronto. Perhaps it is a mistake to make speeches; I do not know, but that speech has been completely misinterpreted by the press. On that occasion I briefly referred to the question of compulsory national service and said that in my opinion it should not be treated as a political issue. At the moment it is not a party issue. At the moment it is no matter for party or partisan strife. It is too serious for that. At the moment-and I hope always -it is a national problem which we must all consider as Canadians, not as Liberals, Conservatives. In my view it transcends political or partisan advantages. That was the purport of the message I gave in Toronto. The crisis is now too serious for any party to endeavour to gain partisan advantage from the issue. This country must wage total war with a total effort. I went farther and stated that leaders of public opinion outside the house have a heavy responsibility resting upon them. It is their duty to make known their views to the country and to the government. Some of

them I believe are accepting that responsibility. Leaders of public opinion outside the house can educate the public on this question without the risk of raising untimely political controversy, and I believe that they have a duty to do so.
I did not hesitate to make known my own personal views. I believe the greatest responsibility rests on the Prime Minister. As Prime Minister, as the representative of the people and as a Canadian charged with the responsibility of government, he should declare his position, and I invite him to do so. Will the Prime Minister give a clear and specific statement of his position, and tell the country how it is possible to wage total war without total effort? The responsibility is his and that of the government. If the situation is that we are in a total war and are to have a total war effort, then the duty of the government is clear, namely, to put into effect measures which will ensure the full utilization of all the resources of the country, for service in any capacity.
I had intended to say something about production, but I shall not weary the house on that score. Production in England is growing by leaps and bounds. I wish I could tell what was told to me by one of the cabinet ministers, but I cannot. I should like to say, however, that I appreciate now more than I ever did before the reticence which has been shown as to revealing terms of production. Of course we in this country were fed up with statements to the effect that production was well up to schedule, or ahead of schedule, and all that sort of thing. It did not mean a thing to us. But over there they made it quite clear that they do not release the terms of production, and I understand the reason for it.
I should like to have this thought made clear -and it was made clear by Mr. Churchill in the speech he made in the British House of Commons on September 30, to which I had the pleasure of listening-that aircraft production in the United Kingdom is to-dhy ahead of the best Germany ever had. I believe I can say that. To give anything in the nature of figures would be only a guess. I think I could give an intelligent guess, but I do not believe it would be right for me to do so.
Definitely, production of aircraft in the United Kingdom is as good as or better than Hitler has had at any time. That is the information I have. I am told, too, that that production will increase, and with the aid of our great neighbour to the south it will bring superiority. Mr. Churchill definitely declared in his speech that with respect to the channel and western Europe there is superiority in the air. That is the claim for British arms to-day.

The War-Mr. Hamon (York-Sunbury)
May I at this point say a word about labour. Although I do not wish to speak at too great length, I believe it is time I said something in this respect. I have avoided saying anything in the house about labour because I did not wish to add to the difficulties of the minister or the administration in what must necessarily be a baffling problem. To-day however I am inviting the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) to give the house and the country a clear-cut statement of the government's labour policy. I do not think we have ever had one. We have heard about numerous orders in council which each may construe for himself. My impression is that organized labour thought they were being handed a bill of rights, but instead of that they got a statement of principles without any legal effect. I now ask the minister to give us a clear-cut statement of the labour policy of the government, and to tell us what orders in council are in force and what have been repealed.
It is true that for the moment Canada is comparatively free from labour problems. I know of only two minor problems, one in my own province and one in the adjoining province. I should like also to learn from the minister whether the provisions of the recent declaration respecting wages are designed to do away with the policy of collective bargaining. And if there is to be a ceiling on wages, what about the bonus system, which is in effect an increase in wages? How will that react to the ceiling on prices, especially on food prices? It is a fact that food prices are on an uneven basis. To freeze them on that basis is to do a great injury to the agricultural population of the country.
I am a defender of the consumer, because I belong to that class myself. I do say to the government, however-and I may have something further to say about the wage policy later on, because I do not wish to take the time to say it to-day-that to freeze food prices at the uneven level of to-day is to do a grievous injustice to the primary producers in Canada, who have had a pretty hard time of it since the war began.


Mr. ROWE:: And to production itself.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes. The order in council making the provisions, it is true, indicates that these inequalities will be ironed out. What does that mean? It means simply that the fellow with the most push and pull will get farther, and the fellow who has not so much push and pull, or who has not the opportunity or the money to present his case, will get nowhere.


Mr. SENN:: And he needs it most.


Richard Burpee Hanson: As the hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Senn) suggests, it is the man who is least effective in protecting his own position who needs it most.
I agree with that entirely.
Perhaps the most satisfactory interview we had in England was with Mr. Bevin, who is now Minister of Labour and National Service. He was not in politics prior to the war, but was drafted to a portfolio when the national government was formed. I believe he entered the government from a sense of duty.
In a word, what is the position there? It is that organized labour has voluntarily forgone the right to strike for the duration of the war. I never thought organized labour would forgo the right to strike. On the other hand the association of employers in England has agreed that there shall be no lockouts for the duration of the war. Of course there are disputes. Minor disputes are referred to regional agents who conciliate between the men and the employers, and in that way settle the difficulties. This is done day after day. But any major disputes are settled by compulsory arbitration. I believe in a word or two I have stated the position of labour in England. What an example for Canada to follow-and, may I add, if I am not presumptuous, what an example for the great republic to the south of us! Is it not possible that some such arrangement as that could be worked out in Canada? I leave that suggestion with the government. I do not think you can do it on a party basis. I do not think you can do it without labour being represented in the government. I do not think you can do many of the things which I have visualized without broadening the base of this government.
May I suggest to the Prime Minister that if we are to have a total war effort he must broaden the base of his government and bring in men of national stature, men upon whom the people can rely. The people are naturally suspicious of a party government. The fellow on the other side will say, "Oh, they are Grits; I cannot trust them." If you bring in men of national stature and have a truly national government-I do not mean a coalition or a union government, but a government made up of national figures- the country wall respond and support such a government through thick and thin. I return to that suggestion, and I should like the Prime Minister to give effect to it.
I had not intended to refer this afternoon to the reaffirmation by the Prime Minister, either when he was in England or shortly after his return, of his belief that an imperial
4068	COMMONS
The War-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury)
war cabinet was neither necessary nor desirable. I shall not refer to that now, but I may do so on a later occasion.
I think we should have from the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe), a full explanation of the gasoline situation and the gasoline conservation measures which are in effect in Canada. Such a statement is due to the country. I have not been critical of Mr. Cottrelle, but I was astonished to read a full page advertisement of the Joy Oil company not so long ago. The minister has stated that this has been referred to the Department of Justice for a legal opinion as to whether or not it was subversive or libellous. We have heard nothing more from him, and the gasoline situation in Canada needs clarification. I invite the minister to make such a statement. I do not want to seem critical; I simply feel that we ought to know just what the position is.
I wish to say something about price control. I think we all know of the evil which has been brought about by inflation at certain periods of our history. I have never been afraid of a degree of inflation in times of depression. From 1933 on, during a period of depression, our great neighbour to the south used a substantial degree of inflation in order to raise the price levels of commodities. Whether or not that had the desired effect I do not know. One of the things done by the leader of that country was to raise the price of gold, with the result that to-day the gold deposits of the United States are a liability rather than an asset. I think it will be agreed that the NRA failed in the objectives sought to be attained.
I think we all admit that in war time inflation may become a real danger, especially inflation in the prices of the necessities of life. But even in the wildest dreams I ever had I never thought that inflation could be controlled by legislation, or by orders in council, which are equivalent to legislation. The economists will tell you that the old-fashioned method of taking care of inflation was by having more production. What does that mean? Longer hours; more sweat and toil. No matter what the Prime Minister may resort to by way of legislation to prevent inflation, I suggest that the only orthodox method of dealing with inflation is more production, more labour, longer hours, and more sweat. They are sweating in England. Trade unionists over there are working twelve hours a day. They are nearer to the situation and to the scene and that is what they are doing. I suggest to the Prime Minister that unless he has the one hundred per cent cooperation of every producer, every tradesman, and every man [Mr. R. B. Hanson. 1
interested in the exchange of commodities in Canada, this system cannot succeed. It is a great experiment and I hope it will work out successfully, because I know the dangers of inflation.
I trust that no word of mine to-day will be construed as being a condemnation of the objectives which the Prime Minister seeks; what I have to say is being said against the method and the manner of bringing it into effect. Why was it necessary only a few days before this house reassembled to legislate on such an important economic development by way of order in council? Could we not deal with a question of this kind? Are we so effete, are we so inefficient, are we so blind to our duties as members of the House of Commons, that we cannot be trusted to debate a matter like this before it becomes an accomplished fact?
I suggest to the Prime Minister that this is one more example of his contempt for parliament. I may be alone in holding that opinion, but we have had so many examples in days gone by that I now have a sense of frustration as to the utility of democratic institutions in war time, as practised by this government. What are we fighting for, their preservation, or their domination by regimentation? I wish the Prime Minister would take us into his confidence and tell us whose baby this is. Is it the product of the wartime prices and trade board? I do not think it is. Is it the product of the ministry? Of course the ministry must take the responsibility. Is it not the product of the brain trust with which this government has surrounded itself and which is running the country to-day?
I think the Prime Minister should have brought this matter before parliament in order that we might debate it. If urgency was important we would not retard it. The Prime Minister knows that whenever a war measure has been brought before this house-and this is a quasi war measure-and he has wanted it put through in a hurry, it has been put through. I received the order in council only yesterday afternoon after this house adjourned and I barely had a chance of glancing at it. I doubt if any Iron, member has been able to give that order in council the intensive study that is necessary to an understanding of it. We understand its implications, but we do not understand all its ramifications. I suggest, therefore, that this matter should have been brought to the floor of this house where it could have been explained to hon. members. It could have been threshed out and truth would have evolved.

The War-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury)
What were the serious economic circumstances which necessitated the Prime Minister's rushing into this action? We had a system of control before; how has it failed? How had the price situation got out of hand? In what way were economic circumstances in Canada more serious than in Britain, where the principle of fixing a ceiling only on certain commodities and allowing ordinary economic laws to operate with respect to the rest has been retained? Similarly in the United States.
The government should give us also a clear statement of the situation as it existed prior to the institution of price and wage control, and specifically a statement of the conditions which there was reason to fear had that policy not been instituted.
Price control does not meet the important problem of restriction of civilian consumption. Indeed, price control may well lead to increased civilian consumption, and the restriction on instalment buying will not curtail that sufficiently. The problem still remains of decreasing consumption of unnecessary goods, for two purposes: (1) the diversion of money which would be so used for the financing of the war effort, and (2) the progressive diversion of the plant and labour used in production of unnecessary consumer goods to production for the war effort. This problem has not as yet been faced with sufficient realism.
I wish to say something to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) with respect to the proposals he made in his last budget for the vacation by the provincial governments of the fields of income and corporation taxation. This subject is one of great importance, not only in relation to our war effort but in relation to the effect upon the taxpaying public. It is important to municipalities which heretofore have looked upon this source of revenue to round out their budgets. What has been done? We are near the end of 1941. Some of us have paid our 1941 municipal income tax. Are the municipalities to be compensated, and if so, at what level? Is it to be frozen on the basis of 1940 or 1941? What is the position of the provinces? Has the great and wealthy province of Ontario agreed to the proposals, and if so, on what basis? What are the compensations proposed to be given to this and other provinces? May I request the minister to inform the house on these matters?
I should like to speak briefly on certain international problems. There is the important declaration of the Atlantic-one of the most momentous statements ever uttered by men in authority. When I first read it, I was reminded of President Wilson's "fourteen points". It bears a close resemblance, but after careful study I think it goes much
farther. The principles enunciated have on the whole been well received by the democratic world. But I found on discussing the matter with certain people in England, with one or two leading personages, that every man has his own interpretation of the declaration of the Atlantic. If the statesmen of the world ever come into a round-table conference to work out the problems that arise out of the declaration of the Atlantic every nation will have its own interpretation, and that may be the weakness of it.
Over the week-end the Prime Minister made another journey to the United States. If it was a private visit to the president I have not a word to say, nor should I have. But if it had any international importance, the Prime Minister should so advise the country, and I invite him to do so. Are there any new commitments, and if so, what are they?
I do not propose, Mr. Speaker, to detain the house at any greater length this afternoon. It may be that later an opportunity will be provided in committee for a detailed analysis of government policy and its implications. We of the opposition will require clear, specific and detailed information on every matter associated with the war effort. For example, we desire to have a full and complete report from the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) on the following subjects, and with respect to him I must say that he should take all the time he wants to get ready to reply; for I realize how tired he must be after his journey. We would like to know from him:
1.	The ultimate objective in man-power which it is hoped Canada may contribute.
2.	The present state of enlistment in the army, and, specifically, the following:
(a)	The total number of men enlisted in the Canadian army in all its branches since the outbreak of war.
Ob) The total number of men now serving in all branches of the Canadian army.
(c)	The total number of men attested for service overseas.
(d)	The total number of men now serving in overseas theatres of war.
(e)	The total number of men serving beyond Canada but not in actual theatres of warfare.
(f)	A statement as to the number of rejections of enlisted men sent overseas, men whom this country trained in Canada, then took overseas and trained them there, and then rejected as medically unfit or likely to become unfit for service; and the reasons for their rejection.
How many were rejected because of bad discipline records?
4070	COMMONS
The War-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury)
3.	We should also like to know from the minister the result of the recruiting campaign of June and July, and the results of the monthly recruiting campaigns, and specifically:
(a)	The method by which the quota for the general recruiting campaign and for the monthly campaign was settled. Was it based on population figures in a given military district?
(b)	The percentage which such quotas bear to the total population of military age within each military district.
(c)	The actual number of recruits which each military district was required to raise in the general recruiting campaign and has since been required to raise each month.
(d)	The actual number of recruits which each military district has raised.
(e)	The actual number of recruits in each military district who prior to enlisting were serving in Canada under the National Resources Mobilization Act.
Then from my friend the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) we desire a complete report on production. I do not suppose he will want to give us that after what I have said this afternoon, but I think he should give us at least a general survey of our production of all implements of warfare- tanks, guns, small arms, merchant vessels, naval vessels and so forth. We should also like to have from him an analysis in detail of the statement he made not so long ago that "we are now producing practically everything required by a fully equipped infantry division at a rate which enables us to equip a new division every six weeks." That, if true, is a remarkable statement.


Mr. HOWE:: It is true.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Then I
should like to tell the minister this, with respect to certain guns which were delivered in England to the first division. The day we visited them they had been waiting months to get these guns. They had only got four out of a total complement of eight, and that was nearly two years after they had gone overseas. So that to say that "we are now producing practically everything required by a fully equipped infantry division every six weeks" is just too much for my credulity.
I have already referred to gasoline conservation methods. I would now ask .the minister to give to the house a full report on gasoline conservation methods and a specific statement of the action contemplated to increase the production of petroleum products in Canada and what additional conservation measures
may be necessary. I believe that the house and the country wish also to have from the minister a specific statement on the charges of the Joy Oil company.
Then from the Minister of National War Services (Mr. Thorson) we shall require information about the objectives of the government in calling up men under the National Resources Mobilization Act; about the enlistment of women in the armed forces, which will come to the fore more and more. Also we shall require information from the minister about the adequacy or otherwise of Canada's information services in the United States. I invite him to tell the house and the country the real truth, the real background of the resignation of Mr. Walter Zeller. Did Mr. Zeller in the course of his inquiry-and I have nothing against him-demand that he be given carte blanche on his own responsibility to spend the public moneys of Canada as, when and where he wished, without authority at all? Is that the true background? I do not know.


Mr. THORSON:: The answer is no.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, that is an answer. What then was the reason for his dissatisfaction, and why did he actually resign? The reason is certainly not in the innocuous statements contained in the two letters that passed between the minister and himself. They do not mean a thing.
I should like to ask the minister about a report that appears in yesterday's press of a speech said to have been made by Mr. Lash, the director of public information, as follows- and I quote from the report in the press:
Public information has done some useful things, but like a number of other war departments it is entoiled in the meshes of the red tape of an archaic system of government.
Is that a true statement? I do not know. Personally I .believe in the control of the treasury of the country. One of the things I had against my hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) was that he departed in a degree, perhaps in a very large degree, from the well-grounded principles contained in the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act. It may have been necessary-I do not know enough about the modus operandi to judge. But here is a man who is charged with the responsibility of directing public information, and he says that he cannot do anything because departments are enmeshed in the red tape of an archaic system of government control. I am not accepting the statement on its face value as true, but I think we should have the matter elucidated. Why did he say that? If it is not true we ought to know.
I should like to have the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) report in

The War-Mr. Maclnnis
due course on his visit to South America and on the present and prospective advantages which will accrue to Canada as a result of the agreements concluded. I have learned that he took in two banquets a day every day during ithe time that he was there. He is good if he can do that; it is more than I can do. I have read what the press had to say about the agreements and I think I have some small understanding of what they mean. May I ask him to inform the house whether these agreements will be submitted to parliament at this session for approval.
I have already indicated to the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) that we should like to have a full report on the labour situation generally; and, concretely, may we have from him a full and complete statement with regard to the many unfortunate strikes which have occurred during the recess, particularly the strikes at Arvida, about which the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) had something to say in the month of July, and also with regard to the position at Cape Breton and at McKinnon Industries. We shall wish as well to have an analysis of the implications of the new wage ceiling; and I believe that, in addition, the house will wish to have a brief summary from the minister showing the development of the labour policy since the outbreak of the war.
From the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) I should like to have some report at some time on Canada's diplomatic position; of the results anticipated from the appointments of new ministers to foreign countries; of the work of the legation in Washington and of what it has accomplished to counteract the sinister influences which have been depreciating Canada's war effort in the United States.
These are merely examples of the information which we seek to have and to which we in this house and the people of this country are entitled. Certain newspapers have suggested that parliament may be peremptorily adjourned or prorogued without adequate discussion of the issues before us. After the survey which I have made and the suggestions I have offered, if the house is prorogued without adequate discussion I suggest that it will not be the fault of the official opposition. We desire to analyse every feature of our war policy, and every important government action directly or indirectly associated therewith. In committee is obviously the desirable place to conduct such an analysis, and I hope that ample opportunity will be provided-in fairness to the Prime Minister, I add that he has offered it-after the various ministers have made their formal statements to the house, or in between those statements, if that is preferable.
In conclusion, on behalf of those whom I represent, may I say that our one objective is now, as it has always been, to promote the greater efficiency of Canada's war effort, and we are prepared to sit here as long as we are of assistance in achieving that end.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon.
friend and the house will realize that I do not rise at this time to make any reply to the leader of the opposition. This is not the proper moment at which to enter into a debate. In fact under the rules debate would not be permitted in reply to a statement made on the orders of the day. I rise to suggest that the house do now continue its sitting in committee of the whole so as to permit of that fuller discussion which, as my hon. friend has rightly pointed out, is most desirable, and to give to the acting leaders of the two groups an opportunity to make, before the statements of the ministers are presented, the statements they may wish to make. To that end I move, Mr. Speaker, that you do now leave the chair.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Bradette in the chair.
Mr. ANGUS MacIN'NIS (Vancouver East): When the house adjourned on June 14, there was an understanding that it would stand adjourned until yesterday unless some urgent business came up or some important event occurred that would necessitate the reconvening of parliament. There may not have been any business that would come under that head, but since parliament adjourned on June 14 many things have happened, which, to me at least, have been highly disturbing.
I do not know whether the procedure we are now adopting is the best if we are to have an adequate discussion of the subjects that call for consideration. It seems to me that parliament should now be concerned with the question of how we can organize the will and energy of the Canadian people for more effective resistance to nazism and for its final destruction. I agree with the leader of the opposition that the Prime Minister's speech yesterday did not give much of a lead in that direction. As a story of the progress of the war, or of happenings since we last met, I have no fault to find with the statement made yesterday, but I find nothing in it that will inspire the people of this country to greater efforts or a willingness for greater sacrifice. During the course of his speech the Prime Minister said:
Every conceivable means by which freedom can be crushed is to-day being employed by nazi Germany.
That is only too true, and because it is true it seems to me that the only way in which the democracies can successfully fight
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nazism is by the continual and planned extension of freedom. In Canada we are not doing that. Our privileged classes, and our government, which appears to be acting at the present time for the privileged classes and only for the privileged classes, seem terribly afraid to get out of the old grooves or give up for the common good any long-held privileges. Since last we met, the war has taken a new turn; Hitler has invaded another country, a country with which he had made a nonaggression pact, a pact of friendship, in order to begin his war of conquest. Hitler has invaded Russia. Because of that move, no matter what inspired it, the people who are opposed to the nazis, that is, our allies in this war, have received the assistance of a powerful ally. All who are opposed to Hitlerism were glad to note, as the Prime Minister so well pointed out yesterday, that immediately Russia was invaded, and without any prearrangement, every leader of a government in the British commonwealth of nations, and some of our allies as well, hastened to assure Russia of every possible aid. It is indeed well that that was done. But I do not think .it was due to generosity on the part of the people of the British commonwealth, it was merely the exercise of intelligent self-interest. Regardless of how Russia came into the conflict, she is now on our side, and I am indeed pleased that we are giving every possible assistance to her, as we must do, because in giving assistance to Russia we are helping ourselves.
I believe, however, that the Prime Minister must go a step further, even if only for psychological reasons. To-day I do not believe this government is taking psychology sufficiently into account, either in home affairs or in our relations with other countries. Russia is now our ally. She is also a great and powerful nation, as Germany has found out. If we are ultimately able .to defeat Hitler and all he stands for-and God grant that we may'-Russia will have an important part in making the peace and determining the new order that will follow. I therefore suggest to the Prime Minister that he open negotiations with the soviet government for the exchange of ministers or, if that is not the right phrase, start negotiations which would result in the establishment of diplomatic relations between Canada and the soviet union. Canada has now a representative in all the important countries of the world with which we have friendly relations, with, I think, the possible exception of China, and I believe the Prime Minister has already taken steps for the exchange of representatives with China. The Prime Minister should not be timid in this matter. Not only would it be,
I believe, a popular move with the majority

of the people of Canada, but it is a move that is indicated by the present war situation and also by the long-term political objectives of the war. We should try to get away from some of the prejudices which made it difficult if not impossible for us to appreciate and understand the growing power of fascism. It would be interesting indeed to know how much of the world's present misery is due to the mutual suspicion and distrust that have existed between the soviet government and the governments of some of the democracies since the revolution of 1917. In that regard I would point out two things that have happened since the beginning of the war which have had more effect on getting mass support for the war than everything else that has happened in the last twenty-six months. The first was the entry of representatives of the British Labour party into the British cabinet, after the removal of some of the appeasers; the second was the entry of Russia into the war. For the sake of our war effort, the future peace and the world order that we expect to build after the war, this change in the attitude of the masses of the people, not only in Canada but in all parts of the world, should not be overlooked. Therefore I commend to the Prime Minister the suggestion which I have made. The time to prepare for to-morrow is to-day, for our to-days are the results of our yesterdays.
The leader of the opposition referred to the labour situation. I wish also to refer to that, because, as I said, a number of things have happened during the recess which have greatly disturbed me. It should be obvious to the Minister of Labour and to the government that its labour policy has been and is altogether wrong. It has failed to get the support of organized labour, and proof positive that it is wrong is that there is not a labour organization or a labour spokesman in Canada that has not condemned the government's labour policy. I have tried my best to convince the Minister of Labour on that point during the last two sessions; I do not know whether I was helpful, but I tried1 to be, for I believe I know the mind of labour. I have given up trying to understand the government's policy. In my opinion it is definitely hostile to organized labour. Let me refer-and I use this as an illuminating example of the government's policy-to the dispute at the National Steel Car Corporation's plant at Hamilton, Ontario. I am referring to this case because it has received dominionwide attention and also because, when the last strike took place at that plant, I wrote the Prime Minister and the Minister of Labour, drawing to their attention in terms as moderate, as sincere and as definite as I

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could command, how the situation appeared to me. Neither the Minister of Labour nor the Prime Minister replied to my letter; all I received was an acknowledgment from a secretary. There may have been this excuse for the Prime Minister; he went overseas about then, and by the time he returned the matter was probably settled and forgotten. There may also have been some excuse for the Minister of Labour, because about that time other labour troubles called him to the maritimes. But I am referring to this case because in my opinion it shows clearly the impossibility of the government's labour policy securing the confidence and support of labour.
This dispute with the National Steel Car Corporation began on February 3, 1941, when the employees made application for a board. It went on and on until, toward the end of July, the employees went on strike for the second or third time. It will be remembered that in April of this year the government appointed a controller, Mr. E. J. Brunning, to manage the National Steel Car plant when the company refused to accept an interim report made by a conciliation board. I believe the appointment was unfortunate, because if there is one man in Canada who has no regard for organized labour and no sympathy with the aims of organized labour, that man is Mr. E. J. Brunning. At the time I congratulated the government on its action, but I am afraid I was a little too hasty in doing so. Three months later, in July, I found that the controller, who had been appointed by the government because the former management would not carry out the interim order of a conciliation board, had on the instructions of the government refused to enter into an agreement with the labour organization in that plant. On July 15 Mr. H. B. Chase, who at that time was director of labour relations in the Department of Munitions and Supply, made a statement with regard to an agreement between the controller of the corporation and the employees, I believe in a letter to the Minister of Labour, although I am not sure on that point. In any event the statement was made, in these words:
I also stated to the committee that it was my understanding of government policy that Mr. Brunning could not negotiate with a union as a union or to sign an agreement with a union, but fair and reasonable conditions could be arranged for by regulations agreed upon between all parties.
That was on July 15. On July 22 the Minister of Labour, in a letter to Mr. C. H. Millard, who is Director of the Steelworkers' Organizing Committee in Canada, also made a statement, and I should like hon.
members to note the similarity between the words used by the minister and those used by Mr. Chase. The minister said:
I believe that you will understand that Mr. Brunning, as controller, could not negotiate with the union as a union, or sign an agreement with a union, but the regulations which are agreed upon between all parties should form fair and reasonable conditions under which the work of the plant should be carried on.
I do not listen, very often to Charlie McCarthy on the radio; but almost every time I have occasion to deal with matters concerning the Department of Labour and the Department of Munitions and Supply, I am reminded of Charlie McCarthy and Edgar Bergen. May I ask why Mr. Brunning could not sign an agreement with the union, as a union? Is there any reason why a government-controlled industry cannot recognize a union and sign an agreement with it? If a government-controlled industry cannot enter into an agreement with its organized workers, then I ask, what becomes of collective bargaining? How are you going to carry on collective bargaining in any government-controlled industry? I want to point out to the Minister of Labour and to the Prime Minister as well, because he is responsible for the acts of his ministers, that in June, 1940, the government passed an order in council stating that they were in favour of the principle of collective bargaining. What becomes of that order in council as far as the National Steel Car employees are concerned? What becomes of it as far as any government-owned or government-controlled industry is concerned, if the Minister of Labour can say over his signature that the manager of that industry cannot enter into an agreement with the union as a union? These are questions which must be answered, and it seems to me they are going to be very, very difficult to answer.
Later the matter was settled; but the Minister of Munitions and Supply, who evidently runs the Department of Labour as well as his own department, was not satisfied with that situation. We find him taking the position that any number of different organizations can be recognized in any one industry. I claim that by this action, by making this statement, by taking this position, the government, through the Minister of Munitions and Supply, is fostering a company unionism, making it impossible for the workers to organize and stabilize labour relations in industry. I want to say most emphatically that by this action, instead of making for peace and harmony in industry the government is making for strife and confusion. I want to know how they are going to carry on in future, because we are not going to get the support of organized labour
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or of the working class in general if we are to have such authoritarian methods applied as between employers and labour in industry.
The leader of the opposition referred to the labour situation in Great Britain, and said that labour had given up the right to strike. Strikes do take place in Great Britain, but they do not have the situation we have here. They do not have conciliation and arbitration on the question of union recognition. That is not a proper question for either arbitration or conciliation. So far as union recognition is concerned, all that should be necessary is that the union is a recognized union, that the majority of employees in a particular branch of industry are members of that union, and want it to act as their bargaining agent. That being the situation, the recognition of the union should be automatic, and should not be allowed to go to arbitration or conciliation.
The leader of the opposition referred to the Arvida incident. In my opinion the Minister of Munitions and Supply grievously erred in that matter. I understand the Arvida workers have asked for an apology from him for having described the trouble as subversive action with intention of sabotage. In my opinion not only are they justified in asking for an apology from the Minister of Munitions and Supply, but they are also justified in asking for an apology from the government, on whose behalf the minister was speaking. Either that, or the government should repudiate the statements made by the minister.
A royal commission was appointed to look into the charges made. A report from which I shall quote was tabled yesterday. It will be borne in mind that the Minister of Munitions and Supply described the difficulty at the plant as attempted sabotage, and on that basis the military were brought in to deal with the situation. On that basis also an order in council was passed giving the Minister of Munitions and Supply power to call the military whenever in his wisdom he thinks the situation warrants it. Although I have not the order before me, my memory is that that is the purport of it. The report of the royal commission on the Arvida matter states in part:
The evidence from every quarter indicates an entire absence of any subversive or hostile influence contributing in any way to the strike, and testimony to that effect and of the total absence of sabotage, actual or intended, was forthcoming from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Quebec provincial police, the municipal police, the Department of Labour at Quebec, Mr. LaBelle the security officer, the senior officials of the company, as well as various foremen, superintendents, et cetera. Similar testimony is also forthcoming from Mr. Daris and Mr. Picard, representing the syndicate. Moreover, this testimony is strongly

confirmed by the fact that the strikers were in complete possession of the premises for several days and absolutely no damage was done, though every opportunity presented itself. It seems clear beyond question that labour conditions alone were at stake.
It is also clear that 'had the Arvida plant been properly organized, with constant communication between representatives of the employees-business agents, shop stewards, or whatever representatives may have been chosen-and the management, the strike would never have taken place. If we are to have democracy in government and harmony in industry, labour must be organized, and must be recognized as a partner in industry.
Quoting again briefly:
There was no trace of latent or developed sabotage, in the sense of hostile or subversive influence, apparent at any time. The strike was one relating to labour conditions and pay, and which might have been avoided possibly had there been better provision against such an emergency.
Since the order in council passed at the request of the Minister of Munitions and Supply, enabling him to call in the armed forces of the country on occasions of this kind was based on false information, will it now be rescinded, or will the government continue to make use of it and to hold it as a club over the heads of other workers? Will they do that with an order in council which was obtained under false pretences? That is a question the government should answer.
I suggest again that the Prime Minister has a responsibility in the matter, because he is responsible for the acts of his ministers. During the recess an order in council was passed making sure that before a strike is called the employees in a plant or industry have by a majority voted in favour of such strike. Penalties were provided. Then, almost every month some order in council is passed for the regulation and restriction of workers in industry. I should like some time to see the government pass an order in council which would affect employers as a group. I should like to see it pass an order in council, or some sort of ordinance, to bring a sense of social responsibility to the minds of some of our employers.
I believe a conciliation board asked for by miners at Kirkland Lake has reported to the minister. What is the situation there, and what is the government going to do about it? What is the Department of Labour going to do about it? I wonder whether the Minister of Munitions and Supply will have an order in council passed permitting him to call out the military at Kirkland Lake mines to deal with the employers as he dealt with the workers at Arvida? I have before me excerpts from

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the report of the conciliation board in the Kirkland Lake mines dispute. On that board Mr. Justice McTague acted as chairman; Mr. F. Wilkinson, K.C., was the nominee of the company, and Mr. J. L. Cohen, K.C., the nominee of the union. The report is unanimous.
But before the board was able to report, the company washed their hands of the matter and said they would have nothing to do with the report. They said they did not care what report the board made, because they intended to ignore it anyway. What does the government intend to do in those circumstances? Is there to be one law for employees and another for employers?
In part the report states:
No attempt was made by the employers to establish that the particular .local did not represent the majority of the employees. No evidence was offered by the mine operators to establish that the union is not a proper union to represent their employees. The assertion was made that it is irresponsible and that the operators were unalterably opposed to bargaining with it, but no evidence of real value was offered in support of the proposition.
That was the unanimous finding of the board. It seems to me that those who were irresponsible were not the employees. They simply took advantage of all legal formalities in order to get a settlement of their case. The report goes on:
At a comparatively early stage in the proceedings counsel for the operators informed the board that his clients were unalterably opposed to recognizing the union and wished to withdraw from any further participation in the proceedings.
The board goes on to say:
In the circumstances we feel there is no other course to follow but to recommend that the union in question should receive recognition as bargaining agent. We are under no illusion that the recommendation is likely to be more than a mere formality. The manner in which the ease for the mine operators was conducted leaves little if any doubt on that proposition.
I ask: What do the government intend to do? Will they take action against the employers if a strike takes place, or will they leave the men to fight out their case with the employers? It is possible that the employers have decided that gold is not particularly essential at the present time and therefore they may be able to starve out the men. I want to know what the government is going to do about the matter. Is there to be one law for employers who defy the government and the laws of the land and another law for workers in industry? This is why every gathering of labour, why the latest conventions of the two large organized labour movements, why every spokesman for labour condemn the government's labour policies.
When the house met yesterday the Prime Minister said that there was no business to bring before us, but that we would have this opportunity of discussing any matter which might arise out of the reports to be made by the various ministers. It is exceedingly strange that a man with his background and experience and who has made so many protestations in favour of parliamentary control should act as he has with regard to matters of such importance. I agree whole-heartedly with what the leader of the opposition has said. Just on the eve of the reconvening of parliament we have had placed before us two orders in council of the utmost importance. They come to us as ukases, as decrees by the government. It seems to me that this is a peculiar way of having parliament decide important matters. I have in my hand the text of a radio broadcast which the Prime Minister made on the night of October 18. This was printed and distributed by the director of public information, under the authority of the Minister of National War Services. I should like to quote briefly from this report. After making some brief remarks about the war situation on the Russian front and in the far east and the necessity of Canada doing everything within its power to organize for the defeat of nazism, the Prime Minister said this:
I am, therefore, going to speak to you to-night about an action which the government proposes to take in connection with conditions within Canada. I believe that what is proposed will vitally affect our war effort, because it will affect every man, woman and child within Canada.
I am going to skip the next paragraph now, but I shall come back to it later on. I quote:
It lias to do with the price of goods and services, and the price of the products of land and sea. It has to do with wages. It is of the greatest importance to every citizen in Canada, and of particular importance to every housewife, every worker, and every farmer. It will affect the daily lives of each one of us. It will require the cooperation and support of all. It will help to intensify the effort of this country in war. It will help to prevent a repetition of distress and depression after the war.
These orders in council come to us on the morning that the house reconvenes and yet, according to the Prime Minister, there is no important business to be placed before us. We do not get this measure in the form of a bill, the principle of which we might discuss on the second reading and then refer it to a committee or discuss it in committee of the whole before agreeing to the third reading. That is not done. The paragraph which I did not read is really a gem, that is why I saved it until the last. The Prime Minister said:
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The action which I am about to explain represents an experiment hitherto untried on this continent, and perhaps having regard to its breadth and variety, hitherto untried by the will and consent of any free people anywhere.
May I ask whose will and consent was asked? In his broadcast the Prime Minister said that this had to do with wages. May I ask if the workers or their representatives were asked about this? He said that it would affect the products of land and sea. May I ask if the fishermen were asked about it? May I ask if the farmers or their representatives were asked about it?


Mr. HANSELL:: Ask if Mr. Towers was asked about it?


Mr. MacINNIS:: He went on to say that it was of particular importance to every housewife. May I ask if the housewives were asked about it? If so, how were they asked about it? As a matter of fact the members of parliament were not asked about it. The sovereign body in Canada was not asked about it. A ukase, a decree is handed to us and we have to accept it.
That is not quite good enough. The subject matter of the order in council freezing wages and the order in council freezing prices should certainly have come before this session of parliament. Surely those are proper subjects for the representatives in this house to discuss and come to a conclusion about. Matters such as these should be dealt with by acts of parliament and not by orders in council. If they are going to come to us as orders in council, what is the use of calling parliament together? What is the sense of having a House of Commons? I may tell the Prime Minister right now that it is time he took control of things and saw that parliament does get an opportunity, if not to decide, at least to discuss matters which now by order in council become the law of the land before we know anything about them.
My time is almost up. In my opinion P.C. 8253, which is the order freezing wages, to use the common phrase, does not go far enough. It takes into consideration only the workers. Prom a psychological point of view, if for no other reason, it should also apply to salaried people and executives. I came to Ottawa on a train filled with servicemen, navy, air force and army, and I just wish the Prime Minister could have sat in the smoking room and listened to these men, without their knowing who he was. He would have got an earful and an eye-opener too. Unfortunately I am not a good mixer with strangers, so I just sat and listened, and I heard plenty. I heard half a dozen or a dozen of these young men say something to this effect: We are in the 
service now because Hitler has to be defeated, but we are not looking forward with any degree of pleasure to the time when we shall come back because, while conditions are bad enough now, they will be terrible when we come back. They had no confidence that the men who are governing Canada at this time would use in peace time the powers necessary to provide the people with the necessities and comforts of life. The government must get over to the people of Canada that it will use its powers to provide these necessities and comforts in peace time before it can hope to have a war effort that will have the heart and soul and mind and the will and spirit of the people of Canada behind it.
If the government is going to put a ceiling on wages it should, as a matter of course, put a floor under wages. I agree with what the leader of the opposition said this afternoon with regard to the farmer. Most of our farmers are in a terrible plight to-day, and freezing prices will not help the farmer until something is done to raise the prices the farmer receives for his products to a parity with the prices he has to pay for what he has to buy. If you do not do that, you are going to have an impoverished peasantry in this country before very long. I have marvelled how the morale of the farmers has stood up through all these years. It has up to now, but there is a breaking point somewhere.
In conclusion, I regret that the Prime Minister did not see fit to make this a real session and that he did not bring these matters to which I have referred before parliament for discussion before action was taken. As the leader of the opposition has said, we have amply demonstrated during the last two years that we would not hold up or delay unduly necessary legislation.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Ernest George Hansell: In the absence of the house leader of this group, perhaps it falls to my lot to say a few words in this discussion. It was a kindly gesture on the part of the parliamentary association to take over to England half a dozen members of this parliament including the leader of this group and the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation. It will be a happy day perhaps when we can all take wings and fly away.
I do not know what advantage trips of this kind may be to parliament. I trust that these

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men will bring back to us some valuable information so that we may be able to understand better the situation as it exists between Great Britain and ourselves so far as Canada's war effort is concerned. I trust that these gentlemen will have an opportunity to have personal interviews with our boys over there, with Mr. Churchill, with the high commissioner for Canada in London, and with some of the labour leaders and other great leaders in Britain. I shall be disappointed, we shall all be disappointed if their trip turns out to have been nothing more or less than a Cook's tour.
I believe that we in this comer of the house are perhaps more concerned about the war effort as it relates to Canada right here at home. I am neither discouraging nor disparaging any gesture which the parliamentary association might care to make towards members of this house. As I said, I thought it was a kindly gesture and I trust that their trip will prove valuable. Nevertheless the thing that we want to know is, what is Canada doing right here and now for the defeat of nazi aggression? I was disappointed with the Prime Minister's speech yesterday. Perhaps I expected too much when I hoped that he would tell the house exactly what Canada was doing and what Canada's position was in relation to world affairs to-day.
We listened to what the Prime Minister had to say about Syria, Russia and Germany; we listened to what he said about the Netherlands, China and Japan; we listened to what he said about the United States; we listened to the numerous quotations which he gave of speeches that had been made by the President of the United States. But we listened in vain for that which we had come here to hear, namely, what Canada is doing here and now. I felt that had it not been discourteous I should very much have lilted to rise in my place and ask the Prime Minister to come to the point. Instead, we listened to that which we can read any day in the newspapers and in the periodicals of the country. I know that the Prime Minister's speech was couched in laudable, well-pleasing terms, and as a review of world affairs since the commencement of the war it was commendable. But it seems to me that we did not get what we were looking for.
In this regard I am going to compliment the leader of the official opposition upon his speech this afternoon. As he told us of his visit to Great Britain I felt that what he was saying was something along the lines of what the Prime Minister should have said yesterday, and other members I believe feel similarly. In fact, at the tea-table a little while ago some of my friends remarked to me that
perhaps Mr. Broekington got mixed a little bit in his mail and mailed a speech to the wrong gentleman. Well, I hope that we shall learn from the' ministers of the crown what we are really doing in Canada to-day so that we can go back to our constituencies with the conviction and profound belief that Canada is making an all-out war effort to defeat nazi aggression.
As I said, it may be all right to go over to England to discover some of the things that are happening there; it may be all right for the parliamentary association to take members of parliament over, so that they may see things at first hand. But I maintain that it would be much more in keeping for this government to invite members of parliament here to look over the situation seriously as it exists in this country. There is nothing that would restore confidence in our war effort more- than for the government to say to all members of parliament: "Here you are, gentlemen, here are the keys to our war effort in Canada." I cannot think of anything that would more quickly remove any possible dissatisfaction than for this government to say to members of parliament: "Here is a free pass to go *wherever you want in Canada, to go into any war industry, into any building, into any military camp or depot, on any ship or into any shipyards, or into any place that is manufacturing munitions, to ask them all the questions you like. Go in and make yourselves at 'home, and if you can discover anything that will help our war effort come back and tell us and we will consider it." That is the sort of thing that should be done. Instead, what do we find? Even members of parliament who are supposed to represent the people of the country find it a little difficult to get into some of these places.


An hon. MEMBER:: Did you not get a card?


Ernest George Hansell: We did get a card some time ago from the commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to enter any public building. But that is not what we want. We want the government to say to us, and I think the government should say to us, "This is a war in which all Canada is engaged." It is not a Liberal war effort; that would not be an all-out war effort. This is a war effort in which we are all concerned. During the national registration we were all called in to help; the Minister of National War Services sent us circular letters and called upon us to do this and that. At first my impression was that he was calling upon members of parliament to go into the junk business. Now I think a little differently. I believe the matter of salvage- is a very good thing, but as to going
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any further than that-"Oh, no, members, you must keep out of it here; you are not wanted in here."


Mr. DONNELLY:: Who told you that?


Ernest George Hansell: You can go around this country wherever you like-


James J. Donnelly: There is no trouble at all in getting into any place.


Ernest George Hansell: My hon. friend is a good Liberal; perhaps he does not have any trouble, but the rest of us do. What I am saying is that such a gesture on the part of the government would stimulate confidence in our all-out war effort. Answering my hon. friend's question, let me tell him that when the special parliamentary committee on war expenditures was sitting I brought the matter up in that committee. When we, as members of the committee, Whose duty it was under the terms of reference to recommend to the government where economies could be made, asked for a pass to permit us to go wherever we wanted we were told that would not do, that we could not get such a pass-


James J. Donnelly: You must have looked suspicious to them.


Ernest George Hansell: Now there is criticism, we hear it on every hand, that the game of politics is being played in connection with our war effort.


An hon. MEMBER:: It is not so.


Ernest George Hansell: All right. If that criticism is a lie that lie should be nailed, and nailed so hard that it will never live again. There is no better way to nail that lie than for the people's representatives to be given absolutely free course in this country. We do not ask to know the nation's military secrets, but we do say that when the people of this country are spending billions of their own dollars they have a right to expect their own representatives to have free course in knowing where and how their money is spent.
I wonder whether the people of Canada are satisfied that Canada is putting forth its maximum war effort. I do not think so. In the statement made by the Prime Minister yesterday he said these words in referring to the war and nazi aggression: "Every conceivable means by which freedom can be crushed is to-day 'being employed by nazi Germany." We believe that, we know that. We would have known it had the Prime Minister not said it. But how much better would it have been if the Prime Minister had changed one or two words there, if he had been able to say, "Every conceivable means by which freedom can be preserved in the world is

to-day being employed by the people of Canada." I know that it has been no easy task for this government-or any government as far as that goes-when war broke out to start at scratch and get the whole country organized for a total war effort. It has been a big task. But now over two years have passed away. Why did we have to start from scratch when war broke out? The answer is very easy: we were told in the preceding years that we had no money. It should be noted that in those pre-war days the heads of our government were forced by their financial ties to allow conditions to drift through the years of destitution with belt-tightening in the midst of plenty as a declared policy; thus there was utter failure to solve those pre-war problems. To our tremendous discomfort they are continuing with the same policy and the same financial ties blunderingly to wage war against Germany. I find the feeling abroad in Canada that we are tinkering with our war effort. That may be denied in some circles, but many people to whom I have talked believe it. For instance, the calling upon school children to take their candy money to school so that every few days the class can buy a war savings stamp is nothing to be proud of.
Recruiting is a very live subject to-day, it was referred to this afternoon by the leader of the official opposition. It is not much to be proud of having officials go through the country gathering together staff officers and other prominent citizens, throwing a banquet, and then giving them a kind of sales talk as to how to get men in the army. We are supposed to be fighting an all-out war. As I stood on the street corner of a certain city not many months ago, a recruiting campaign was going on; there was a little stage set up on the street; a band was playing; some speeches had been made, and the young folks were having a dance on the street. A spotlight was playing upon those who were dancing; that spotlight was thrown upon a young chap in civilian clothes who was dancing with his girl friend, and from the loud speaker came some suggestion to this young chap about enlisting in the army. I say that such tactics in the endeavour to mobilize this nation for an all-out war effort are nothing to be proud of.
A little over a year ago we had a national registration. The people thought we were really getting down to business. At that time it was believed that we were to register everyone, so that each could serve in his rightful place. To my mind that was just a million dollars practically wasted. The country really responded; various organizations, young people's societies, soldier organizations, service

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clubs and even church organizations throughout the country gave freely of their time and energies during that registration. But what did we get for it? It is true that we answered a number of questions, one of which was "Can you milk cows?" Well, there is one satisfaction; we know how many men and women in Canada can milk cows. I wonder whether we know exactly how many mechanics there are in Canada to-day, and where they are.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: The government say there are none.


Ernest George Hansell: Well, there should be; during the last ten years we had plenty of time to train them. Do we know how many welders there are in Canada to-day, and where they are? Do we know how many chemists and engineers there are in Canada? Do we know where they are, so that we could go to them and say, "Here is a job waiting for you. Do you think you can serve your country better by taking it? We will pay you a fair salary." I wonder whether we could do that, as a result of that national registration. Last session I heard someone-I think it was a member of the government, although I am not sure of that-declare that we did not have the skilled workmen we should have in this country. I believe that should be considered a disgrace to a government that was in power for the ten years preceding the war, when young men as well as older men were without employment and could have been trained to be of service during the war which at that time was impending.
Over two years have passed since the outbreak of war. Soon after the war began we passed what was known as the National Resources Mobilization Act. At that time this group fought in this house for the mobilization of the whole country in a total war effort. We said the first thing that should be mobilized and used, so that there might be no restriction on our production, was the banking system of this country. Hon. members will recall that at that time we offered an amendment suggesting that the Bank of Canada should perform its proper function in supplying the necessary means of payment, so that the government should not be restricted in its war effort. At that time we were told by the Prime Minister that the amendment was not really necessary, because it was already embodied in the bill. We were told that the mobilization of material and human resources meant also the mobilization of the financial resources of this country. Well, Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether that is true. I say, I think, without fear of contradiction, that there has been no change whatever in
the banking policy of this country since the beginning of the war. Banks are still creating credit as they did before the war and as they have always done; and they are creating it as a debt to the nation, with added interest.
Speaking of an all-out war effort, I said that I was conscious of the fact that it was a tremendous task to organize this country for a total war effort, and I am going to commend in some small degree the work that has been done in the past two years by some members of the government. But we cannot say to-day, even after two years have gone by, that Canada is experiencing a total war effort. The other day I picked up a newspaper, but before stating what I read in it let me suggest that the bureau of information, which is under the sponsorship of the government, should be just a little more clever. I do not believe our propaganda machine, if I may call it that, is working effectively. The headline in this newspaper stated that the Germans were within seventy-five miles of Moscow, that they were hammering at the doors of that city. I turned over the pages of the paper and noticed an announcement by the bureau of information that the Minister of Munitions and Supply had said we were now making tanks in Canada, and that we hoped to be able to supply at least one hundred tanks to Russia by Christmas. Here were the Germans hammering at the doors of Moscow, and our total war effort for two years had brought us to the point where if the Russians were able to hold out until Christmas, we hoped to be able to supply them with one hundred tanks. I say that even though the government had to start from scratch when this war commenced, very much more could have been done if this whole problem had been tackled by mobilizing the resources, particularly the financial resources, of this country. When I say that, I mean that this group, as should be well known by now, has in mind the mobilizing of our banking institutions so that there may be no restriction whatever on our war effort; and I am confident that if this had been done our experience would have been vastly different.
Instead of that we find our people to-day wondering whether or not they are justified in fighting to make rich men richer. We speak of bonusing industry and of bonusing labour. I have no particular objection to that. I do not believe anyone could have anything to say against the labourer getting paid in proportion to the increase in the cost of living.
Speaking of recruiting, we have heard nothing about the dependents of soldiers being equally bonused on account of the rise in the
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cost of living. If we are to call upon our young men to volunteer for service, we must show them that they will get a fair and square deal in Canada, one commensurate with the deal everybody else gets. We have heard nothing about the bonusing of soldiers' wives and soldiers' mothers, or other dependents.
In our travels we have heard something about the word "conscription." I do not like the word. Nevertheless it is one that is being used, and used more extensively in some parts of the country than in others. I read in the press the other day where even the leader of the official opposition had referred to conscription. This article, which appeared1 in a Winnipeg paper, was headed, "Hanson says public, not political party, may ask conscription." Then, in the article the leader of the opposition is reported to have said:
I have studied it from every angle. If it were put to a plebiscite I do not know what would happen.
I do not think it is going to be put to a plebiscite. If it were put to a plebiscite I would suggest that all parties be called in to discuss what the people were voting for. I would suggest that they be asked something like this: "Do you believe that the maximum war effort can be reached by the conscription of man-power for overseas service, if at the same time we do not conscript the banking system of Canada?" I think I know what the answer would be. Or, we might say, "Are you in favour of the conscription of Canada's manpower for military service, without first conscripting the banking institutions to create and provide the necessary means of payment?" I think I know how the people would vote on a question framed in those words.
Let me suggest something quite fundamental to the success of our war effort. It is all very well to talk about the mobilization of material resources. It is all very well to talk about the securing of raw materials. It is all right for the government and others to talk about getting the country organized for a total war effort. But there are other vital points which must be taken into consideration and, in my opinion, the most vital factor of all is the Canadian people.
I am going to suggest that there are two points which are most vital. First, the nation must know the seriousness of the situation. Yesterday the Prime Minister attempted in some degree to show the seriousness of the situation. But it cannot be described in high-toned or platitudinous phrases. They must know the danger, and must realize how close these dangers are. Second, the people of Canada must realize that the things we possess are worth fighting for. I do not believe that a

large proportion of our people realize this point fully, and I am going to suggest that there is a reason for that situation. It seems to me that the people are asking whether or not they are fighting for a new order. I believe the government is all wrong in the psychological foundation of its presentation of this matter to the people of Canada.
What does the government talk about? Government officials come round telling us to prepare for the aftermath of the war. They tell us that after the war we may have to come down to a lower standard of living-a tighten-your-belt policy. They tell us that after the war they hope the national income will be large enough to warrant paying off our huge debts. The question the people of Canada are asking is whether we are fighting for a new day or the return of an old day. This afternoon the hon. member for Vancouver East talked about comments he had heard while travelling east on a railway train. All hon. members have heard similar comments. I heard one young soldier say that when the soldiers came back they were not going to lay down their guns until they were perfectly sure they were coming back to a Canada worth living in. I did not say anything to that young man; I believed that perhaps his statement was a sort of idle boast. But that is what young men are thinking about.
On another occasion when I heard one of the young men of my acquaintance speaking in that way, I said, "Now, young fellow, do not fool yourself, because those who are at the helm to-day are telling the people of Canada to prepare for economic disaster after the war." I said, "When you come back you will be in the very same position as the soldiers who returned from the last war." I said I was old enough to remember with intelligence what was said at the time of the last war, and to remember that the soldiers who fought in that war said the same thing.
But what happened? We all know what happened. I say that if fundamental changes in our economic system are not made before the war is over, this nation will be plunged into a state of despair similar to that through which it has passed in the last ten years. That is the natural result of the present economic arrangement.
The government is continually reminding the people of possible post-wrar stringency. Only the other day the director of public information came out with a similar statement. That sort of thing is no good. We have to fight for something worth fighting for. We know what freedom means. But to many men freedom does not mean as much as it does to some of us. We recall what happened a few years ago when the men boarded the

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train at Vancouver in an effort to come to Ottawa to present their grievances to the government. We know, too, what happened at Regina. It seems to me that the young men of that day were fighting for a freedom; they were fighting for economic freedom. They were not fighting with clubs or guns, they simply came down here to interview the government and to see what could be done. There has been no change in our system, and the results after the war will be the same as what we have been going through for the last ten years. Fundamental changes must be made.
Before I resume my seat may I say that I hope before leaving here we shall be given some definite statement as to what is being done now to meet post-war eventualities. It is all right to be told that we are fighting against something, but we should be told what we are fighting for. It is not enough to say that we are fighting for our freedom, and it is not enough to talk about getting jobs for our soldiers. I notice the Minister of Pensions and National Health is in his seat. He is at the head of a government committee which has been appointed to investigate postwar problems. The Liberal party is not only trying to run the war, but trying to determine how the world should be run after the war. I suggest that there are a good many men in this country who are outside the Liberal party and who could say something about how things should be handled in preparation for the post-war period.
The Minister of Pensions and National Health was in Toronto the other day, and according to newspaper reports he spoke quite enthusiastically about getting jobs for soldiers after the war. Once or twice he used the phrase "rehabilitating soldiers after the war." I find it hard to believe that a government which could not find jobs for men before the war will be able to find jobs for men after the war is over. In other words, if they can assure men of jobs after the war, why could they not have legislated so that men could have found jobs before the war? It is not just a matter of finding men jobs; it is a matter of so readjusting our whole economic democracy that men may have economic freedom and be able to produce and consume what they produce.
The government which was in power before the war was not able to find jobs for men, 'but they are now proposing that after the war jobs will be found. I say that when the Minister of Pensions and National Health goes up and down this country he should tell Canada how he is going to do that. Even our own people have not been told what good
alternatives we have to the bad pre-war policies. Until we get a good alternative we shall be merely tinkering with our post-war problem. If our policy is, first, to defend the world and then to develop and organize the freedoms-I say "freedoms" not "freedom";
I mean all freedoms, including economic freedom-we ought to make up our mind as to how we mean to do this and then tell the world about it.
Someone has well said that democracies do not perish at the hands of an external conqueror, that they fall because they are insecure from within. Let us have a democracy that does not end with the ballot-box; let us have one that will actualize those things which people desire. Can we say that we have had a true democracy in this country for the past ten, fifteen or twenty years? Can we say that in those days preceding the war we had a true democracy? Can we say that our people were receiving what they desired? Can we say that the people desired relief rolls? Can we say that the people desired destitution and poverty? Certainly they did not desire those things.
If democracy means anything, it means the people's right to elect a government that will so manage the country that their desires will be filled. That is true democracy. Speaking in London the Prime Minster said that something must be done now to meet post-war eventualities. I agree with him. But he did not say what had to be done. This group dares him to say how this present arrangement can be adjusted in order that democracy may function to the maximum extent or how this system can be changed to deal with the post-war problem.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, in reporting to hon. members on the current position of Canada's munitions programme, my task is much less difficult than in making earlier reports. Then, many of our largest projects were in the construction and tooling up period; now, most of our large projects are in at least partial operation. Then, my report, necessarily to some extent, dealt with anticipated production; to-day I can confine my remarks to actual production, and at the same time give to hon. members a fairly comprehensive view of our munitions programme.
In his remarks this afternoon the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) invited me to be frank with the house as to the actual state of our production and to give the house the fullest possible information on that subject. I propose to do that subject to the limitations which he himself said he had found to be
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necessary. I am not, however, going to follow those limitations as much as I did in earlier stages because I believe that as the United States are now manufacturing munitions on a large scale and have been quite free in publishing their statements of production, secrecy about our own production is not as necessary now as it was in the earlier stages. There is, of course, certain information about our production which is confidential and which I must keep confidential, but I am going to give hon. members a fairly comprehensive view of the state of our production at this time.
It is always interesting to see ourselves as others see us. Recently a British management and labour delegation made a tour of the United States and Canada, at the request of the United States government, to survey the current position of war production. Four of the members were industrial executives and four were representatives of British trade unions. Last week the delegation issued its parting message as an official press release. I quote from this release:
While on the North American continent, we have been privileged to inspect over 80 different plants. During our stay in Canada, we have been able to see the production of naval and mercantile ships, aircraft, guns, machine guns, shells, machine tools and other war-time equipment of vital importance, being produced on a scale that not only surprised and heartened us, but which, we believe, will similarly surprise and hearten the people of the dominion itself.
I was interested in the fact that this delegation believed it to be their duty to tell the people of Canada how well we are getting on. Evidently they had heard disparaging remarks from our own people. I am certain that no one in a position to know the volume of our current munitions exports has any desire to disparage our efforts. In saying this, I wish to say also that our effort is no better to-day than it was six months or a year ago. The only difference is that we are witnessing a later stage of our production programme. At the next session of parliament our output records will enable me to give a still more impressive record of Canadian achievement, but that again will be merely a later stage of the same programme.
At present practically every plant in Canada capable of war work is engaged in war work, either wholly or in part. To September 30th the estimated dollar value of contracts awarded by the Department of Munitions and Supply amounted to approximately $2,600,000000. Of this amount, Canadian orders totalled $1,506,000,000, which had been filled by Canadian production to the extent of

$1,325,000,000, from the United Kingdom $40,000,000, from the United States $140,000,000, and from other countries about $1,000,000.
Capital assistance to industry for the extension of existing plants and for the construction of new plants, instalment of equipment, et cetera, aggregated a total of $550,000,000, partly for Canada, partly for the United Kingdom and partly for joint account.
Our shipbuilding programme has been expanded to a point where total orders for ships now exceed $500,000,000. To date Canada has launched seventy-seven corvettes and delivered more than fifty of these for active service; has launched fifty-nine mine-sweepers, of which about forty have been completed; and has also delivered eleven patrol boats, nineteen motor torpedo and crash boats, and some 700 smaller boats, some with power and some without power.
Our cargo vessel programme is well under way, and two 10,000-ton cargo ships have already been launched and will be delivered this autumn. Before the end of 1942, we expect to deliver into service about 100 cargo ships, of which ninety will be of 10,000-ton capacity and ten of 5,000-ton capacity. Some 500 industries located across Canada from coast to coast are engaged in manufacturing components for these cargo vessels.
In addition to our cargo vessel programme, we are laying down keels for larger and faster corvettes and for a large number of corvettes and mine-sweepers similar to those already built. All our seventeen major shipyards are working to capacity, and are being expanded to the fullest possible extent. There are fifty-eight smaller yards working on our small-boat programme.
Our aircraft industry has manufactured in Canada and placed in service since the outbreak of war, or has assembled in Canada, 3,749 aircraft. In addition, we have received from the United States in the same period 1,268 aircraft. The present average rate of production is approximately forty per week for all types, and in this regard it should be pointed out that the present production includes a heavier proportion of advanced trainers and service aircraft than in the earlier *months of production. Link trainers are also being produced in Canada, with deliveries now well past the 100 mark.
We are now in position to manufacture aircraft to meet all the requirements of the air training plan, as well as the aircraft requirements of the British training schools that have been located in Canada. We are in very substantial production of Hurricane fighters and Bolingbroke bombers for operational work, we are well advanced toward

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production of the Consolidated P.B.Y. boat, and we have recently undertaken production of the newest type of British 4-engine bomber, as well as a new type of British fighter plane.
The repair and overhaul of aircraft and engines, which is a rapidly growing responsibility as the number of planes in Canada increases, is being carried out by the department in twenty-nine plants strategically located across Canada. It is estimated that the number of aircraft requiring overhaul at the present time is 5,000 a year, and that a year from now the number of overhauls will reach 10,000 a year. This overhaul work represents a very substantial aircraft industry in itself.
The Canadian automobile industry has played a tremendous part in equipping the forces of the empire. Already over 150,000 vehicles of all types, army trucks, personnel carriers, et cetera, have been delivered, and deliveries are continuing at the rate of thousands each month. In addition, bicycles, motorcycles, buses, tires, spare parts, et cetera, have been delivered in large quantities.
In the field of armoured fighting vehicles, we are now delivering infantry tanks, cruiser tanks, universal carriers and armoured scout and reconnaissance cars at a rapidly expanding rate of production. Production of tanks began in June, and the rate of production has increased steadily since that date. Early in 1942 we are scheduled to achieve a production rate of 200 medium tanks each month.
I may say that a tank represents a tremendous amount of work and the cost is in the vicinity of $90,000. I mention that only as an indication of the amount of material and workmanship which goes into a tank's construction.
Universal carriers came into production in the middle of the year, and already over 1,500 have been delivered. These very useful vehicles are now being produced at a rate of over 400 each month, and this rate will be substantially increased early in 1942.
Armoured scout and reconnaissance cars of Canadian design will be produced in quantity before the end of the year, and the production rate of hundreds per month will be reached early in 1942.
Guns and equipments, after long months of planning, building and tooling, are now in very substantial production. This is a wholly new Canadian industry, and has required heavy capital expenditure for plant and for training of skilled personnel. The early period of low production is now moving into the crescendo of mass production. We have already delivered thousands of gun barrels of the anti-aircraft types, and are now delivering
complete gun mechanisms. We have delivered tank guns and field guns, and the first of our naval guns will be ready this month. Altogether we are producing more than ten types of complete heavy guns, including anti-aircraft field, tank and anti-tank and naval type guns, together with all mountings and parts to make the complete fighting units. The 1942 rates of production will be:
Anti-aircraft-over 400 per month.
Field-over 500 per month.
Naval-over 150 per month.
Extra barrels-over 1,000 per month.
The production of these intricate mechanisms is high testimony to the skill and determination of Canadian industry.
My hon. friend the leader of the opposition spoke of the delivery of four guns overseas.
I presume these would be field guns, 25-pounders. All I can say is that many of us in this house attended the opening of the plant on July 1 last when six complete guns were on exhibition and were tested before the assembled gathering. Of course, we only make the guns; where they go after they leave the factory is something with which I have no concern. I should think, howrever, that probably the guns were more urgently needed elsewhere either in Canada or in other areas of service, which may account for the fact that only four reached our own forces.


Richard Burpee Hanson: These were British guns, 5-5.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is something else.
In the field of machine guns and small arms, Canada is making a worth-while contribution to the equipment of empire forces with rapid fire infantry weapons. We have created rifle and machine gun plants that compare in size with any similar units in the world. We have already produced over 12,000 Bren guns and over 14,000 additional extra barrels. Hon. members will note that, whereas the first Bren gun contract called for this number of guns to be produced over a period of two and a half years, all deliveries called for under that contract have now been made. Production of this gun now runs at the rate of more than 2,000 a month and is still increasing.
In addition to the Bren gun, we are now producing Browning aircraft machine guns, with a production rate rising to thousands a month early in 1942. In addition, we are bringing into production the Vickers machine gun and Boys anti-tank rifle and Sten sub machine gun. Early in 1942 we will be producing naval machine guns and mountings in hundreds, and anti-tank rifles and sub machine guns at rates of thousands a month. We have already delivered substantial quantities of Lee-Enfield
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[DOT]303 rifles, and production rates, now in thousands a month, will increase to over 200,000 a year.
Trench mortar deliveries, already in hundreds, will increase to a rate of over 400 a month. In addition to trench mortars, we plan 1942 production of bomb throwers and smoke projectors.
In heavy ammunition, we are producing twenty sizes of shell, and have already delivered over 9,000,000 units. Our capacity is in excess of 1,200,000 shells a month. We are producing ten sizes of cartridge cases, and have already delivered over 10,000,000 cases. Our capacity is about 2,000,000 cases a month. We have produced in excess of 7,000,000 fuses of all types, and have capacity for over 1,000,000 a month. We have produced in excess of 8,000,000 primers, with a continuing capacity of 1,300,000 a month. We have produced many millions of gaines, tubes and miscellaneous shell parts, as required for complete ammunition, and have a capacity of about 1,000,000 a month. All these empty components, together with other minor component parts, are required for the complete rounds of filled ammunition. Their production is coordinated with the capacity and requirements of our filling plants, with some surplus shipped empty as required abroad.
Vast new plants have been created and personnel trained for the exact operations of filling ammunition with high explosive and propellant charges. We are now shipping filled complete rounds, and production of these will expand rapidly as our filling plants swing into full production. Capacities for 1942 production are at present arranged as follows:
Complete rounds-over 1,000,000 per month. Cartridges-over 700,000 per month. Projectiles-over 700,000 per month.
In addition to complete rounds, cartridges and projectiles, we have provided capacity for filling bombs, depth charges, mines and fuses.
In the field of small arms ammunition, Canada holds an enviable position in the matter of quality and quantity of production. We have already delivered hundreds of millions of rounds of small arms ammunition of various types. Our capacities include ball, tracer, incendiary and armour piercing types of -303, -30/06, -22 long and -38. New capacity is being created for the production of -SO, [DOT]55, '45, 9 MM and 20 MM. Current capacities are about 50,000,000 rounds a month, and will be trebled in 1942.
Our bomb programme includes types from 500 pounds down to practice bombs. Deliveries have already been made in excess of 500,000

units. Mortar bombs, grenades and anti-tank mines are in production, with monthly capacity in the tens of thousands.
Our chemicals and explosives programme is a major part of our munitions production. Explosives are produced for our own filling plants and for shipment overseas. The range of production extends from high explosives, rifle and cannon propellants, and TNT, down through the intermediary chemicals and raw materials. The standard of our product enjoys a very high rating, and we have already delivered over 150,000,000 pounds of finished products. Capacity in 1942 will reach 70,000,000 pounds a month of chemicals and explosives, with complementary production of subsidiary materials.
In the field of pyrotechnics, we are producing signal cartridges, flame floats, flares, smoke generators, sea markers, signal rockets, lights, igniters, et cetera, by the tens of thousands each month. Already hundreds of thousands of these special stores have been delivered to our forces and allied governments.
Production of instruments includes technical apparatus and gear, ranging from fire control gear, range finders, telescopes, et cetera, through to clinometers, gauges, et cetera. We are already in production on many of these precision instruments, and production is scheduled to match ordnance requirements from now on. Thousands of gauges and standard instrument types have already been delivered.
Our general purchasing department has procured the vast quantities of personal equipment and barrack stores required for our services, including thousands of tons of food, fresh and canned. Clothing, boots and shoes, caps, mitts, gloves, greatcoats, et cetera, have been turned out at the rate of many thousands a month. Other stores procured include office furniture, office equipment, electrical supplies, fuels and paints, lubricants, medical supplies, tools and hardware.
The construction branch of the Department of Munitions and Supply has awarded construction contracts aggregating 1,558 in number for a total of $146,000,000. These include work for the army, navy and air force and the air training plan, as well as harbour works, and extensions or additions to aircraft manufacturing plants. This does not include civilian housing, which is handled by Wartime Housing Limited.
The air services branch of the Department of Transport, which now operates under the direction of the Minister of Munitions and Supply had, up to the end of September, completed 108 new airports for the use of the

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Royal Canadian Air Force and air training plan, and had thirty-one additional airports under development. Included in the above are eighteen airports now occupied by the Royal Air Force in connection with its training project in Canada. As at 31st August, 1941, the sum of $64,000,000 had been allocated for airport construction, exclusive of buildings. In addition, the cost of airport hangars, workshops, barracks and associated works and buildings for the Department of National Defence for Air has involved an expenditure of $117,000,000. Over 100 airports have been equipped for night flying; and power, telephone and lighting facilities have been installed by the air services branch at a cost of $5,200,000. Operational airports are now under way in Newfoundland and Labrador, between Edmonton and the Alaska boundary, and along the northern coast of British Columbia, in areas far from human habitation, involving unusual engineering problems. In my opinion, this work of airport construction calls for all credit to Canada's construction industry and to the staff of the air services branch of the Department of Transport, who have planned and supervised the work.
Hon. members may be interested in a brief mention of the work of the wholly government-owned companies operating under the direction of the Department of Munitions and Supply.
Allied War Supplies Corporation administers the chemical, explosives, and1 ammunition filling programme, including twenty-three separate projects. Construction work is now largely completed. Twenty projects are in production, and the remainder will be in operation before the end of this year. Approximately 15,000 employees are engaged in operations, and it is estimated that twice that number will be required as the plants are brought into full production. One new chemical plant has recently been authorized for the manufacture of aniline, and additions have been authorized for four chemical and explosives plants. Capital commitments now total about $112,000,000.
Citadel Merchandising Companj' Limited supervises the purchase and distribution of machine tools. During the quarter ended September 30 last, this company purchased machinery and machine tools to the value of $23,400,000. Since it commenced operation, this company has purchased and distributed machine tools to a total value of about $60,000,000.
Fairmont Company Limited is responsible for maintaining in Canada adequate supplies of rubber. This company is the sole buyer of rubber for Canada, and its product is sold to
war and domestic industries as required. In addition, the company buys and distributes hides for our leather industry.
Melbourne Merchandising Limited was established in September, 1940, to purchase in bulk the wool required for military contracts, and also to act as handling agents for the British wool control. This company is charged with the responsibility for having adequate supplies of wool available for war industrial requirements.
National Railways Munitions Limited was incorporated to produce munitions at various shops and car plants of Canadian National Railways. The company is engaged in the production of naval guns and gun carriages, and will shortly be in production.
The Plateau Company Limited was formed to purchase, store and distribute to war industries adequate supplies of silk, required for parachutes and other purposes. Since the issue of an order in council on August 9, 1941, "freezing" all silk in Canada, Plateau company has been taking delivery of all "frozen" silk for government account.
Research Enterprises Limited was organized in August, 1940, to provide facilities for manufacturing war material of a secret nature developed by the national research council, and for the production of optical glass, fire control instruments, both optical and electrical, and devices of a secret nature required by the army, navy and air force. This operation has developed in a most spectacular way, and has been found to meet a major war requirement. The main plant has been in operation for some months and now employs more than 1,500 men and women. The first optical glass produced in Canada was made by Research Enterprises in June. The company now has orders totalling over $55,000,000 for optical equipment, instruments and secret radio devices.
Small Arms Limited. This company was formed in August, 1940, to build and operate a plant at Long Branch, Ontario, for the production of Lee-Enfield rifles, bayonets and scabbards. The present programme provides for six times the capacity of the original plant. The company has recently undertaken the production of Sten machine carbines. About 1,250 men and women are now employed at the plant. A substantial quantity of rifles has already been delivered, and the output is increasing rapidly each week.
War-time Housing Limited. This company was incorporated in February, 1941, to provide housing accommodation for munitions workers in communities where serious congestion has developed on account of war projects.
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The present programme embraces the construction of 4,427 cottages, thirty-five staff houses, four commissaries and two special buildings, in twenty-seven cities and towns across Canada. The expenditure for the entire programme now under way or projected is estimated at $15,750,000. The programme is constantly being expanded to meet urgent requirements for housing for munitions workers.
War-time Merchant Shipping Limited. This company was incorporated in April, 1941, to administer the programme of cargo ship construction in Canada. This programme calls for 143 vessels of 9,300 tons and ten vessels of 4,700 tons. Two of the larger type ships have already been launched, and a third will be sent down the ways on November 6. Keels have been laid for twenty more of the larger class Ships. Twelve shipyards are engaged in carrying out this merchant ship programme.
War Supplies Limited. This company was formed in April, 1941, as a means of implementing the declaration of Hyde Park. Its function is to negotiate and to receive orders from departments of the United States government for war supplies to be manufactured in Canada. I should perhaps mention that the declaration of Hyde Park has worked out as was contemplated, with the result that Canada's problem of dollar exchange is in process of being solved.
Federal Aircraft Limited. This company was established in June, 1940, to administer a large programme for the production of Anson aircraft required for the air training plan. Ansons have now been built and flown at all five of the company's assembly plants, and a considerable number have now been test-flown and delivered to the Royal Canadian Air Force. The aircraft being produced1 by this company is a material improvement on the British type Anson, and production is stepping up rapidly.
An interesting development of our munitions programme, brought into being to mobilize the last ounce of Canada's war productive capacity, is known as our "bits and pieces" programme. Munitions contracts call for a tremendous volume of production, and it was inevitable that the large contracts were placed in large factories. It is now our purpose to have the large plants break down their large contracts into small contracts and to sub-contract these as widely as possible, in order that Canada's peace-time machine tool capacity may be fully utilized for war work.
There are many advantages in expanding our production by a "bits and pieces" programme, rather than by building more large plants. I may mention a few:

First. There is a limit to the amount of work that can be handled by our larger manufacturing organizations, as they represent only a portion of the country's productive capacity which, from a mechanical standpoint, can be adapted for war use.
Second. The machine tool market has now reached a point where it is difficult, and in some cases impossible, to secure machine tools as rapidly as required.
Third. By taking work to the men rather than the men to the work, we can avoid disruption of community life in some areas and congestion in others, save in housing costs and community facilities, and obtain a more suitable type of labour. Readjustment problems will be lighter after the end of hostilities, and the load on the taxpayer less.
Fourth. By spreading the vrork to hundreds of small shops, use can be made of thousands of skilled workmen, who, through their age, position, or other reasons, do not desire to change their homes and source of livelihood.
To facilitate carrying out this programme of sub-contracting, a new branch has been formed known as the industry and subcontract coordination branch, with headquarters at Ottawa and regional offices across the country. The branch and district offices are designed to help small manufacturers, and those threatened with curtailment of peacetime operations, to obtain contracts or subcontracts of a type that they are equipped to handle. The purpose is also to encourage subcontracting and to assist the prime contractors in setting up and operating efficient subcontracting departments.
A great deal has already been accomplished in the field of sub-contracting. Millions of dollars worth of bits and pieces are already in process of being manufactured. Several large industries such as the pulp and paper, oil, utility, and mining have set up organizations to coordinate the use of the available hours of their maintenance shops. A great many of our so-called luxury manufacturers are changing over to the production of war materials.
As an outstanding example of what has already been accomplished in this direction, I may mention the 25-pounder gun programme being carried out by Sorel Industries. This plant w'as built to manufacture 25-pounder equipments at the rate of eight a month. It is now' building about forty complete equipments a month, and by the end of the year will be building fifty complete equipments a month. The increase in production has been brought about partly by an extensive system of sub-contracting.

The War-Munitions and Supply-Mr. Howe
The 25-pounder gun is made up of approximately 1,286 parts, and of these 529 parts, or about 41 per cent, are being sub-contracted. These parts are divided among sixty-three small plants in the provinces of Quebec and Ontario. The parts that are being made at Sorel are some of the most difficult, and also those requiring special single purpose machines. The parts that have been sub-contracted are being handled by shops, the smallest of which is a two-car garage behind a house, operated by the owner and two helpers, and having about $4,000 worth of machinery; and the largest a modern shop having $300,000 worth of machinery and 600 employees. The small garage is providing two precision parts-a pin and a bracket. The large shop is manufacturing a highly complicated dial sight having 122 precision parts, many of which have to be made with the same accuracy as required in an expensive watch.
In the last two months over 82,000 finished parts have been supplied by these sixty-three sub-contractors to the main factory at Sorel. Production of these parts does not come about by merely handing blueprints to manufacturers and asking them to supply the parts. It has been found that in a great many cases, manufacturers, in their desire to assist in the war effort, and because of overoptimism, have accepted work from prime contractors and failed to produce.
The excellent work that is being done in sub-contracting by the Sorel plant is due to the use of engineers on loan from the Chrysler corporation, who have put into effect methods arrived at by years of experience in subcontracting in the automotive industry. Under the direction of those men, remarkable results have been obtained in cutting down man-hours and costs of production.
What Sorel Industries have done, other manufacturers can do. My remarks on this subject have been extensive, for the reason that I am asking the cooperation of all manufacturers in the further development of subcontracting and cooperation in our bits and pieces programme. The department is ready and willing to assist in every way, but the manufacturers, both large and small, must do their part. The small shops and displaced industries must be prepared to help themselves if the department is to be placed in a position to help them.
To assist in furthering this bits and pieces programme, I have issued instructions that before additional capital assistance will be approved, a full investigation must be made of the possibility of sub-contracting. Those responsible for purchasing have been asked
to break down orders to a size that can be handled by as many small manufacturers and displaced industries as possible.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: The minister mentioned capital assistance. Would he say if there is any liquid capital assistance, or working capital assistance, being given these concerns?


Clarence Decatur Howe: .Which concerns?


Joseph Henry Harris: Small concerns. Would the minister say whether any working capital assistance is being given these small concerns?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It depends entirely upon the individual case; ordinarily not. What we are endeavouring to do in the bits and pieces programme is to utilize existing capacity. Capital assistance would imply that we were building up small concerns for the purpose of participating in the programme. That is not the purpose of the programme. Of course we have offered capital assistance for specialized work which we could not get done in the routine, but that is separate and apart from the bits and pieces programme.


Joseph Henry Harris: I quite understand about the capital assistance, but I am asking if any working capital assistance is given.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There again it depends upon the circumstances. I do not like to make general statements about a very large programme.


Joseph Henry Harris: I was asking for a particular statement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would not say it has not been done, but it is not usual to do it.


Joseph Henry Harris: Then go ahead; I am sorry to have interrupted.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think hon. members will agree that the production programme as it is to-day is tremendous in scope. It will be readily appreciated that a programme of this magnitude makes tremendous demands on our sources of raw materials. To supply our war industries it has been necessary rigidly to control distribution of war materials and to assure a priority of use to war industry, as against peace-time industry.
The control over essential war materials has been obtained by the appointment of twelve controllers of materials and services. These twelve controllers are members of the war-time industries control board, under the chairmanship of the director general of the priorities branch. The purpose of the controllers is principally to ensure adequate sup-
4088	COMMONS
The War-Munitions and Supply-Mr. Howe
plies to war industries, but the work of the board is closely associated with that of the war-time prices and trade board, the latter board having complete control of prices. Each controller administers the policy of the wartime prices and trade board as applied to the industry over which he exercises control. The following is a brief outline of action taken by the controllers to date:
Machine Tools. Machine tools are basic in war production, and every effort is being made to increase their supply and to restrict their non-essential use. In 1940, designs were frozen on a broad list of consumers' durable goods, including automobiles, in which a change of model would otherwise require new tooling. Every effort has been made to distribute machine tools to war industries in need of such equipment. No exports of machine tools may be made without licence. A government-owned company, Citadel Merchandising Company Limited, assists in the financing of the greatly extended production and purchase of machine tools.
Metals. The metals controller has supervision over the supply, distribution and use of all non-ferrous metals, minerals, and alloys. Substantial restrictions have been imposed on the civilian use of essential metals. In the case of copper, lead and zinc, all tonnage in excess of that required for the Canadian war programme and for greatly restricted domestic requirements is sold under contract to the United Kingdom. The production of metals in Canada has been greatly extended, and this country, which produces the principal base metals such as aluminum, nickel, copper, lead and zinc far in excess of domestic requirements, is supplying these metals in very large quantities to Great Britain and/or the United States of America. In addition, progress has been made in developing sources of strategic metals which were not produced in Canada in any quantity before the war.


Mr. MacNICOL:: In connection with the minerals that are being produced, has any plant in Canada yet come into the production of magnesium metal?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The first magnesium metal from a pilot plant is being produced now. We have not undertaken large-scale development.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Where is the pilot plant?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think it is here in Ottawa, at the research laboratories.


John Ritchie MacNicol: There is one small plant in Hamilton, I believe.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think that one is in operation.

Mercury has been in production for over a year, and tungsten, antimony and manganese are being developed.
Motor Vehicles. The motor vehicle controller has substantially reduced the number of passenger cars which may be manufactured in Canada in order that materials and labour may be directed to the manufacture of war vehicles. For 1942 the rate of production of passenger cars has been established at 44 per cent of 1940 production, which is the equivalent of 50 per cent of 1941 production. Steps have been taken to spread this reduced output evenly through the year, to avoid unnecessary peaks and valleys in labour and material requirements.
Oil. A number of orders have been issued by the controller to restrict civilian use of gasoline. These include reduction of deliveries to service stations to 80 per cent of estimated normal requirements, and prohibition of the erection of new service stations, gasoline pumps, storage tanks and oil-burning equipment. Sale of gasoline and oil to motorists on Sundays and at night (from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m.) on week days has been prohibited. Grades of gasoline for public use are limited to two, and credit cards may no longer be used by Canadians. Voluntary cooperation in saving gasoline has been requested, and a list of pointers on how to save gasoline and oil has been placed before the public.
This afternoon the leader of the opposition asked for a complete discussion of the public letter issued by the Joy Oil company. I am quite prepared to discuss that matter, but I should prefer to leave it until the subject matter of this statement is under debate. To discuss the matter at this time would distort the balance of things, and place an undue emphasis on the matter.


Joseph Henry Harris: Would the minister tell us what success he has had with the prohibition-or inhibition-he has established with regard to the consumption of gasoline?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The distribution of gasoline to gasoline stations has been reduced to 85 per cent of what was estimated to be the unrestricted consumption. That, however, is a story in itself-the oil situation.


Joseph Henry Harris: That would be
included in the story. There is a 15 per cent reduction, brought about by those who walk instead of driving their cars.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It has been rather confused,
but the situation is becoming clarified.
Steel. Various measures have been taken to conserve iron and steel, and a system of index-

The War-Munitions and Supply-Mr. Howe
ing of consumers' requirements is now in operation to ensure that the needs of essential undertakings are met. Measures have been taken to stabilize steel prices, and structural steel shapes have been standardized and reduced in number from 267 to 70. All orders for pig-iron must be forwarded to the steel controller for approval on a preference basis. By the first quarter of 1942, Canada's annual steel productive capacity will be more than double what it was in 1939. This greatly increased capacity, plus greatly augmented imports from the United States of America, is insufficient to meet war orders and domestic requirements, which accounts for the rigid control outlined. Apart from the action of the steel controller, the civilian use of steel is limited by the operations of the controller of construction, the machine tools controller and by the controller of supplies.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before
leaving the subject of steel, would the minister tell us the state of production in Canada of steel plate? What is the position with respect to the Sydney plant?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have two plants operating to capacity on steel plate, namely, the Steel Company of Canada and the Dominion Foundry plant at Hamilton. The plant at Sydney is being placed in operation. I believe it is- now waiting for electrical equipment, but it will be in production early in the new year. To continue:
Timber. The entire Canadian industry has been organized so that centralized buying for government projects is effected as economically as possible. In May, 1941, domestic prices for timber, lumber and mill-work were fixed at the April 1, 1941, level, and price-fixing has since been extended to' other lines. The controller also has entire power to direct the sale, storage and movement of timber stock should this power need to be exercised. Substantial progress has been made in arranging for the more efficient use and substitution of timber in order to release steel for war requirements and to make more high grade timber available for export.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before
proceeding to the next point, would the minister tell us the timber policy for next year
(a)	with respect to production or quantity, and (b) with respect to price? The men are going into the woods now. What shortage, if any, is anticipated?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We understand the present
situation will continue into next year, namely, that the demand for lumber will greatly exceed the supply. So far as prices are con-
14873-25S
cemed I would point out that domestic prices are pegged and can be changed only upon application to the war-time prices and trade board, with evidence to show that the change is necessary and justified. The export price is whatever the export market will bring.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If the
industry can show that the cost of production	(a) in	respect of	wages	and (b)	in
respect of supply is increased over this year, will it be given due allowance?


Mr.   HOAVE@: The timber controller has
written a letter to the trade within the last week or ten days agreeing that the trade should place their position before the wartime	prices	and	trade	board	in	April	ofnext year. I cannot make the promise my hon. friend is inviting, but I will say that the position will be reviewed, and if a price increase is justified	in the	opinion	of	the wartime	prices	and	trade	board,	I	have	no
doubt it will be granted. My department has nothing to do with prices.


Mr. TUSTIN:: Have any price increases
been allowed since last spring?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There has been no price increase since April, 1941.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is,
authorized.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Authorized or made, so far
as I know. It has not been made legally, anyway.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I agree
with that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: To continue:
Chemicals. Through voluntary arrangements, a number of measures have been taken to ensure an adequate supply of chemicals for various essential purposes. Formal orders have been issued limiting the use of chlorine as a bleaching agent in paper making, and prohibiting the use of glycerine as antifreeze, and restricting the civilian use of refined glycerine to 70 per cent of 1940 levels.
Transit. This controller is responsible for reorganizing transit systems in order to ensure adequate transport facilities to deal with traffic congestion in key war production areas. Organizational work in connection with staggering of working hours to relieve congestion in certain areas is now under way, and introduction of specific measures on a test basis is expected in the near future.
Construction. With certain exceptions, including government buildings, churches, and single, duplex and triplex dwelling houses,

4090	COMMONS
The War-Munitions and Supply-Mr. Howe
construction of new buildings costing more than $10,000, installation of equipment costing more than $5,000, and making repairs in excess of $2,500 are all subject to licence of the construction controller. These powers are being exercised to the end that construction projects shall be limited as far as possible to those of an essential nature.
Ship repairs. It is the duty of this controller to see that the most efficient use is made of Canadian ship repair facilities. These facilities are being stepped up to a maximum to provide quick repairs for both naval and cargo vessels.
Supplies. To date the following commodities have been brought under the jurisdiction of the controller of supplies: Silk, rubber, cork, transparent film, refrigerators, washing machines, stoves, radios and vacuum cleaners.
(a)	Silk. Early in August, 1941, all raw silk owned by Canadian companies or on order by Canadian companies was taken over by Plateau Company Limited (government-owned) and will be used exclusively for war purposes. Consequently supplies of substitutes for companies previously using silk for certain purposes have of necessity been arranged.
(b)	Rubber. Arrangements are under way for the acquisition of additional supplies of crude rubber to be held as a reserve by the government company, Fairmont Company Limited, which now handles all purchases of crude rubber for both war and domestic requirements. Consumption of rubber for civilian purposes is being curtailed on a sliding scale and by February, 1942, will be down to 70 per cent of the 1940 monthly average civilian consumption.
(c)	Cork. While no formal orders have as yet been issued, commercial cork, including cork wood in a natural or semi-processed state, is now under the jurisdiction of the controller of supplies.
(d)	Transparent film. The .use of transparent films of the "cellophane" variety has been substantially curtailed, and with certain specific exceptions is limited to use as cellulose adhesive tape and for packaging food, candy, drugs and tobaccos when not in tin or glass containers.
(e)	Consumers' durable goods-i.e. refrigerators, washing machines, stoves, radios, vacuum cleaners. Production of all these articles for civilian use has now been curtailed. The general principle underlying the curtailment measures is that monthly production for the time being is to be reduced to 75 per cent of 1940 monthly average output. Committees of representatives of the industries concerned are being formed to assist in the efficient and equitable application of this principle.

Power. In order to ensure adequate supplies of power for war industries, the power controller has instituted daylight saving applicable throughout the year in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec in the case of those communities which observed daylight saving in the summer of 1940. Use of electric power for steam purposes has been banned and coal boiler installations made, making such power available for war industry. Certain non-war industries have been forced to reduce consumption of power during peak hours. In central areas all power systems have been inter-connected, so as to permit excess power in one area of the country to be used in other areas as required. Many improvements in plants have been arranged on the order of the controller to ensure maximum production of power from all capacity.
I have endeavoured to give hon. members the highlights of Canada's munitions programme without undue detail, but, even so, it has been a long story. I feel that the men and women of Canada are beginning to understand the all-out nature of our productive effort. Looking back over the past two years, I do not see. how our full production could have been developed any more rapidly than it is being developed. I have been supported by the unfailing devotion to duty of a very able, staff drawn from Canadian industry, and I have also had the fullest cooperation from Canadian manufacturers and from Canadian workmen. Canada's position in war production will stand comparison with that of any country in the world, and recent comparisons that have been made by competent observers are highly complimentary to this country. Our war industries are soundly established, and our present production is all that, and in many cases more than, we had anticipated. It has been our purpose to call on Canadian industry and Canadian man-power for the maximum that the most optimistic estimates of capacity would permit. While we believe that we are reaching the end of possible productive capacity, we are still taking on new projects to the extent that further possible productive capacity can be discovered. If, in the past, other countries have looked upon Canada as a source of raw materials rather than of finished products, the future will find us a country equipped to turn our own raw materials into finished products within our own borders.
It has been our purpose in planning our war industries to maintain a balance between available supplies of raw material and our planned war production. We have counted on curtailment of domestic production of a non-essential character and this is now being

The War-Naval Services-Mr. Macdonald
brought about through our controllers. I wish to assure hon. members that the only purpose of curtailing of domestic articles is to free necessary raw materials for our munitions programme and to provide needed manpower for that programme. We will continue to make available for domestic use everything not absolutely required by the war programme, and we will not call upon our people for sacrifices that are not entirely necessary to bring about the success of our war effort.
Such measures of restriction as have already been applied have, in general, obtained the full cooperation of our citizens. I ask all hon. members to cooperate with our controllers in explaining to our citizens the need for restriction and in asking for cooperation.
There is no reason to believe that this war will end in the near future. Our industrial effort must foe sustained over a long period. We have planned with this in view. Munitions from Canada are now reaching every theatre of war in quantities that are impressive to those receiving them. We have established a reputation of quality and prompt delivery. There is an enthusiasm behind our production that is accomplishing results greater in many cases than we had hoped for. I am confident that, in the months to come, Canada will make history as an industrial nation engaged ' in an all-out effort in war production.
Hon. ANGUS L. MACDONALD (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services): Mr. Chairman, it is now nearly a year since I gave to the house what I then endeavoured to make a comprehensive review of the strength, work, and prospects of the Royal Canadian Navy. In the course of the year that has passed there have been discussions on naval matters both in the house and in committee, but no general statement on the Royal Canadian Navy was made in that period. I shall endeavour now to give briefly and simply some further account of our naval effort during the past year.
When I spoke a year ago I was able to tell the house that the Canadian navy had increased from a strength of 1,774 officers and men on active service at the beginning of the war to a strength of 13,000 officers and men on active service in November, 1940. Those figures represented an eight-fold increase in the space of fourteen months. I stated then that we planned to have 23,000 men and 250 ships by March 31, 1942. I am happy to be able to say that now, six months before that date, we have considerably exceeded that estimate. In the last twelve months the increase in personnel has been even greater than during the first fourteen months of the war. The total strength of
the Royal Canadian Navy to-day is 27,000 officers and men, a truly phenomenal expansion from the first days of the war. What is more, there is no dearth of recruits; there is no lack of men offering to serve in the navy.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it not
a fact that you have an embarrassment of recruits?


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: That is right.


Richard Burpee Hanson: You do not know what to do with them; you have no place to send them.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: We have a waiting list of 4,000 men.


William Earl Rowe: In other words, the boys are ahead of the government.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They
want to get in the navy; that is the idea.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Will the ships which will be manned by these Canadian sailors be sent all over the world, or will their activities be confined to our seaboard?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I shall reach that in a moment. In answer to my hon. friend who just asked whether these men were not ahead of the government, I have to say-


William Earl Rowe: That would not be difficult.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: - that there is no dearth of men. Men are being taken into the naval service as rapidly as they can be trained and as rapidly as ships can be provided for them. You cannot train naval officers particularly, and petty officers, in a short time, but they are being trained as rapidly as is possible in this country and England, and as soon as they are trained there is a place for them.
As to where these men serve I may say to the hon. member for Davenport that they are to be found in every sea of the world. The great majority of them, of course, are to be found in Canadian ships but several hundred of them have been lent to the Royal Navy. These men of the Canadian navy who are serving with the Royal Navy are paid by Canada and at Canadian rates of pay.
To turn now to the question of ships, it is to be noted that the increase here has kept pace almost exactly with the increase in personnel. A year ago the number of ships in the Canadian navy was 155. The number to-day is 300. In that number are included auxiliary cruisers, destroyers, corvettes, minesweepers, patrol boats and auxiliary vessels of a great variety of types.
4092	COMMONS
The War-Naval Services-Mr. Macdonald
Like the men of the Canadian navy, our ships are to be found in widely scattered parts of the world. One cannot, of course, specify with definiteness where the ships are at a given time, but it may be said without fear of betraying any secrets that at this moment Canadian ships are separated by 10,000 miles of land and sea. Some of them are on convoy work; some are protecting the shores of this country, and still others are cooperating with the royal navy. The work of convoying both freight ships and troop ships still continues to be one of the most important tasks of the Canadian navy. How important is this work to the success of our cause, and how vital it is to the very life of the British isles are matters that are beyond dispute. It is a source of gratification to be able to say that not one ship proceeding in troop convoy from these shores to Great Britain has lost a single passenger on the way. So far as freight convoys are concerned no fewer than 7,000 ships have left Canadian shores for Great Britain since the outbreak of the war, carrying 42,500,000 tons of cargo to that island. A great deal of the work of convoying these ships and their cargoes has fallen to the Canadian navy. I shall not attempt to specify how this work is allotted, where the duty of one service ends and another begins, but it is true to say that a great part of it, and a very hazardous part, falls to the care of the men of the Canadian navy.
We have been greatly heartened, and I believe that the whole empire has been cheered by certain steps taken not long since by the navy of the United States. The great president of that great country has indicated clearly that certain portions of the seas which lie between America and Europe and which he regards as of primary importance to United States security will be patrolled by United States ships of war. He has asserted the principle of the freedom of the seas in those areas, and the ships of the United States navy are now defending that principle. The decision of the United States president is one of great importance and of great assistance to us and to our cause.
On more than one occasion the work of the Canadian navy has won the commendation of naval authorities in other countries. Thus, speaking in Bermuda in September last, Mr. Frank Knox, Secretary of the Navy of the United States, said that the Canadian navy is doing, to quote his exact words, "a very outstanding job" in the defence of north American sea approaches, and he added that it had been "a very considerable help to the whole problem of transport".

Writing in the Fortnightly Review for September of this year, Admiral Sir Henry Richmond, in an article entitled "The War at Sea" uses the following words in speaking of the need of increasing the strength of escort forces:
The prospects of such strengthening are encouraged by the news from Canada of the truly remarkable developments of the Royal Canadian Navy. Canada, who began the war with a diminutive navy of thirteen small vessels and 1,774 officers and men, now commands the services of 250 vessels and a personnel of 22,000, and these are employed as far afield as the Caribbean sea, the north Atlantic and the European waters. Besides this, her shipbuilding programme has included the construction of no less than seventy of those useful little vessels, the corvettes, of which sixty were for the Canadian and ten for the British navy, sixty mine-sweepers and a large number of other small craft. Nor is this all that she has contributed to the defence at sea. Her troops have furnished reinforcements for the defence of Iceland, Newfoundland and the West Indies, and her forty shipbuilding and repairing yards are producing merchant ships. These are efforts which should not go unnoticed in this country; they are harbingers of even greater things and they show the awakening of the maritime spirit of that great dominion.
Those are the words of Admiral Sir Henry Richmond. These are significant statements. But added proof can be presented of the value of the work that has been done by Canadian naval forces. Such proof is to be found in the awards and mentions for gallantry. On no fewer than forty-nine occasions, officers and men of the Royal Canadian Navy have received decorations, mentions in dispatches, or commendations for their performances. This alone is proof of the valour of our Canadian naval personnel and of the importance of the work which they are doing.
This work is not carried on without its casualties. Since the beginning of the war 364 officers and men have been killed, sixty-seven have been wounded and two are prisoners of war. In the last year two ships of the Canadian navy have been lost. One the Otter an armed patrol ship, caught fire and foundered off Halifax in March of this year with a loss of nineteen men. More recently the corvette Levis, while escorting a convoy, was torpedoed with a loss of seventeen men.
But we have something to show on the other side of the ledger. We, too, have taken our toll. Five enemy merchant ships have been captured by our navy since the commencement of hostilities. Enemy submarines have been frequently attacked by our ships, mainly by depth charges, and while it is not possible or proper to give the details of these actions, it may be said with certainty that some of the attacks have been completely successful and that more than one German

The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
U-boat now lies at the bottom of the sea as a result of the vigilance and skill of men of the Canadian navy.
The protection of merchant shipping is one of our tasks, but the provision of merchant ships and of merchant seamen is in other hands. The Canadian naval staff, however, have taken a deep interest in the training and supply of merchant seamen and have cooperated with the Department of Transport in the provision of manning pools in this country, where merchant seamen may register and remain while awaiting employment on a merchant ship.
Two hundred ratings of the Royal Canadian Navy are now serving as gunners or in some similar capacity on defensively equipped merchant ships.
There are two other matters which I should like to mention briefly in this statement. The first is that very shortly we hope to begin the building of destroyers in this country. Already some skilled naval constructors from England have arrived to supervise this work. Plans for destroyers are well in hand, and as soon as material is available-and this will be on hand very shortly-the work of destroyer-building in Canada will commence.
The second matter which I wish to mention is that we hope to open the Royal Canadian Naval College in the autumn of 1942. This college will be a training ground for officers of the navy, and I believe it will prove to be an invaluable addition to our programme of organizing the Canadian navy.
Expansion in ships and men of the Canadian navy has been substantial, but we aim at still further expansion. We shall have more men and more ships. Changes being made in the art and the practice of naval warfare require changes in ship construction and in the training of naval personnel. We are endeavouring to the utmost of our ability to keep in touch with the latest improvements in training and in shipbuilding and in ship armaments.
The work of the empire navies in this war is of prime and overriding importance. The task of carrying supplies overseas and of protecting the ships wliich carry those supplies is one which need take second place to none other in the strategy of this war. We must have more merchant ships to replace those that are lost, and to do more than replace them, to make the merchant navies of the empire larger and more efficient than they were before. But merchant navies without the protection of fighting ships are helpless to-day. More and more this fact is being emphasized. Greater and greater becomes the need for more and better escort vessels. Our shipyards in Canada, under the direction of the Minister
of Munitions and Supply, have done magnificently up to the present. They will continue, I know, their splendid record.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, I think I can say with modesty that the personnel of our navy has brought honour to itself and to this country. It will be the aim of the department of naval services to continue to improve upon the work of the past and to spare no effort of thought or labour in carrying out its duties, which are so vital to the successful prosecution of this war.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Mr. Chairman, the Department of National Defence for Naval Services has under its charge the drama of the navy. The department over which I have the honour to preside has no such drama. Many of its activities are of a prosaic nature, but they are nevertheless important. A number of functions have been assigned to the Department of National War Services. The department, since the house last adjourned, has been reorganized to a certain extent. This afternoon I tabled an order in council, P.C. 8488, dated the 31st day of October, 1941. This order in council authorizes certain divisions of the department and sets out the purposes of such divisions. It indicates the great variety of the functions that are assigned to this department.
Perhaps I could best illustrate this diversity by reading the operative parts of the order in council:
The following divisions of the Department of National War Services are hereby authorized for the purposes hereinafter set forth:
(a) The National Registration division-to administer and carry out the national registration regulations, to record and tabulate new registrations, to record changes of address and of matrimonal status, to compile statistical and such other information as may be required as a result of the said national registration, and to prepare lists of men as may be required under the national war services regulations or otherwise.
The national registration which took place in August, 1940, was the first task assigned to the new department that was created on July 12, 1940. While the employees of the national registration division are on the staff of the department, they act under the supervision of the dominion bureau of statistics. Many of the results of the national registration are to be found in a number of publications, issued by the Department of National War Services in conjunction with the dominion bureau of statistics. The first of these is the preliminary statistical tabulation of the national registration of August, 1940. Then there is the table of specialized occupations, also issued by the
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The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
Department of National War Services and the dominion bureau of statistics. And finally, statistics relating to labour supply under war conditions, issued by the Department of Trade and Commerce, dominion bureau of statistics, social analysis branch.
The second division that is authorized is called the mobilization division. Its functions are:
To administer and carry out the national war services regulations, and to direct the mobilization of men for military training under the said regulations, of women volunteers for auxiliary service with the army, navy or air force, as requisitioned from time to time, of fire-fighters for service in the United Kingdom, and of such other persons as may be required from time to time; to keep the records of the voluntary service registration bureau, and to assist in directing those seeking war employment to employment and towards training facilities which may be available; to give information and other services in connection with prisoners of war and Canadian internees in enemy occupied countries.
The next division referred to in the order in council is that of public information. Its purposes are;
To direct the activities of the bureau of public information; to collect and disseminate to the public information concerning the various phases of the war effort of the Canadian people and the activities of the government in relation thereto; and, generally, to coordinate the existing public information services of the government and originate or employ other means in order that the same may be [DOT]used in the most efficient way for the obtaining of the utmost aid from the people of Canada in the national emergency which has arisen.
I like to think of the functions of the public information bureau as being carried out with one objective, to bring the war effort of this country as close to the hearts and minds of the people of Canada, and the people of Canada as close to our war effort, as it is possible to do. Indeed I conceive that to be perhaps the main objective of the department which has been placed under my charge.
The Minister of National Defence some time ago spoke of four things as being necessary for the successful prosecution of the war: men, munitions, money and morale. I hope that the department over which I preside may make some contribution towards keeping the morale of the country at its highest possible level.
The next division referred to in the order in council is the war charities division. The purpose of this division is:
To administer The War Charities Act and the regulations made thereunder, to cooperate with all organizations registered under The

War Charities Act, including such organizations as are or may become subject to the supervision of the national war charities funds advisory board, and generally to promote, organize and coordinate different forms of voluntary assistance with a view to the most effective use of personal services or material contributions for the prosecution of the war and the welfare of the nation.
The next division that I shall refer to is the women's voluntary services division. This is a new division of the department, and I am very happy indeed to be able this evening to announce its creation. The purpose of this division is:
To promote the coordination of the voluntary efforts of the women of Canada and to encourage the organization of women's voluntary services on a community basis, with a view to their best utilization for the needs of their communities, the maintenance of national morale and the furtherance of the welfare of the nation.
Then there is another division that is called the salvage division, of which the purposes are:
To strengthen the spirit of thrift in the minds of the people of Canada; to encourage the conservation of raw materials and promote the salvage, collection and disposal of secondary raw materials; to direct and supervise the organization of voluntary salvage corps; to cooperate with other departments concerned with the conservation and use of secondary raw materials and assist in the making of the necessary arrangements between producers, dealers and consumers, and to prepare information for distribution.
These are the functions of the department which are authorized by the order in council.
Then certain statutory functions have been assigned to me. One of them is the supervision of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation so far as broadcasting is concerned; another is the chairmanship of the national film board of which I shall speak later. Then further the administration of the Canadian travel bureau has been assigned to my department, and I have been asked to assist in the coordination of censorship activities throughout the various departments of the government.
I shall not attempt to speak of these various functions at any appreciable length. I shall not deal with the national registration or the manner in which that was carried out; that was very fully covered by my predecessor when he spoke earlier this year.
But I should like to say just a few words about the various functions of the mobilization division. The first of these functions has to do with the calling up of men for military training in accordance with the provisions of the national war services regulations made and established in virtue of the National Resources Mobilization Act and the War Measures Act.

The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
As all hon. members are aware, the national war services regulations provide that every male British subject who has been at any time subsequently to the first day of September, 1939, ordinarily resident in Canada, while (as of July 1, 1940) of the ages of twenty-one to forty-five years inclusive and unmarried or a childless widower is liable during the continuation of the state of war now existing to undergo military training for such period as the governor in council may determine by proclamation. On or about the 1st day of July of this year men of the age classes of 21, 22, 23 and 24 as of July 1, 1940, and men as they become 21 years of age subsequently to that date, have been called out by proclamation. (The date of the proclamation as given, July 1, 1940, is not perhaps the correct date, but I have not the exact date now before me). The provisions of the national war services regulations are administered by thirteen administrative divisions established, roughly corresponding to the military districts of Canada. In each one of these divisions there is a board consisting of a chairman and two other members. The chairman of each board is a judge of a superior court or other court of the province in which the administrative division is located. The other two members are prominent and respected citizens of the community. In addition, authority to appear before the board at its hearings is given to a representative of the Department of National Defence and to a representative of the national labour supply council. The various national war services boards are completely in control of the administration of the regulations, and their decisions in all of the matters that come before them are final and conclusive. The Department of National War Services in Canada therefore does not deal with individual cases.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Would the minister explain how those hockey players got out of the country?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I shall be glad to deal with that when we are in discussion.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should not like the minister to forget it.
Mr.' THORSON:	The department in
Ottawa does not deal with any individual cases. If the hon. leader of the opposition suggests that the departure of the hockey players was a result of any intervention on the part of the department in Ottawa I can inform him that he is entirely mistaken.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not say anything of the sort, but I want to know how these young men got out of the country when they were subject to military draft.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I shall deal with that subject when we come to discussion. All communications concerning any young men who are called out for military training should therefore be addressed to the registrar of the administrative division in which the man concerned resides.
Roughly, the purposes of the Department of National War Services in respect of the calling out of men for military training are these: The Department of National Defence indicates from time to time, usually monthly, the number of men that the department requires for military training. A requisition setting this out is sent to the Department of National War Services, and on receipt of instructions to that effect each divisional registrar selects the young men and sends them notices to appear before any medical practitioner in good standing. The men are selected by the divisional registrars from the several cities, towns, villages and the countryside, so that all portions of the division shall furnish men in as equitable a manner as possible.


Richard Burpee Hanson: By what method does 'he select them? I know the practice, but what is the method of selection?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The selection is by age groups; first the twenty-ones, then the twenty-twos, and so on.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Has the registrar any right to say this man shall go and that man shall not go?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: He has assigned to him the duty of selecting men from the province or administrative division over which he has jurisdiction. I should like to deal more specifically with the question raised by my hon. friend when we get into the discussion.


George James Tustin: Did I understand the minister to say that a young man who is called up has the right to appear before any qualified medical practitioner?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes, in the first instance, since all medical practitioners in good standing have been appointed examining physicians by the Department of National War Services. Therefore in the first instance a man may go to any doctor of his own choice. Then the medical certificates that come in from these practitioners are subject to scrutiny in the department. These medical practitioners examine the men in accordance with the physical standards for the examination of recruits as laid down by the Department of National Defence. The men who are found physically fit for training are then notified
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The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
to report at an indicated training centre of the Department of National Defence, where they undergo four months' training.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I just interrupt to ask whether this is the final medical examination? Are those reported fit accepted on the strength of that certificate, or do they undergo another medical examination when they report at the training centres?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I do not think they do.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: Yes, they do.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think the minister should inform himself on that point.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Once the men have been delivered to the training centre they come under the jurisdiction of the Department of National Defence and are no longer subject to the jurisdiction of the Department of National War Services. There has been a misunderstanding of the situation with regard to this military training.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before he leaves this question of the medical examination, would the minister take steps to inform himself not only with respect to the matter to which I alluded but also with regard to this situation? Young men go to their own family physicians and are reported unfit for service; is there any review of those cases?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes.	,


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should like to have that made quite clear.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes, those cases are also subject to review by medical examiners of the department in the various divisions, who check up the rejections.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should like to know how many rejections have been checked during the year or so this plan has been in operation.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I shall be glad to give full particulars in that regard.
I was dealing with the subject of the four months' training. The men are called up for this training under the provisions of a proclamation issued through my department. When they are delivered to the training centre they become subject to the Department of National Defence, which department has issued orders, which are now routine orders, holding these men in continuous service for the duration of the war. I am happy to say that the requisitions of the Department of National Defence have been filled by the Department of National War Services without any difficulties whatever. I should like to pay a tribute to the youth of Canada,
fMi. Thorson.]
to their parents and their friends, for the manner in which they have come forward, willingly and freely, for this compulsory military training-


Mr. HOMUTH:: Have they any alternative?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: -as men who realize the vital and pressing need of preparing themselves for the defence of their country.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Might I ask the minister if they have any alternative?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Perhaps not, but I am commenting upon the splendid manner in which they have responded, and I should like to pay tribute to them. There have been very few delinquents indeed.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Could the minister give us the number of delinquents?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I think I can get that information for my hon. friend. The National War Services regulations contain special provisions that are designed to facilitate equitable conditions of mobilization. If the board is satisfied, for example, that the calling out of a man for military training will cause extreme hardship to his dependents, the board may postpone the training period of such man, provided that he applies for a postponement order in accordance with the regulations. Special consideration is also given, in accordance with the regulations, to employees of war industries and men engaged in seasonal occupations and in activities essential to the successful prosecution of the war. But I should remind hon. members that there are no exemptions, and that there are no indefinite postponements.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I should like to correct the minister's statement. He has said that there are no exemptions, but he must admit that there are exemptions from military service for Doukhobors and Mennonites.


Richard Burpee Hanson: And conscientious objectors.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: There are some persons who are excepted from the application of the regulations, but they are very limited in number. Those persons are set out in section 6 of the regulations, and include judges, members of the clergy, members of the naval, military or air forces, and the like. But those are classes that are excepted from the application of the regulations. I repeat that in respect of those subject to the regulations there are no exemptions and no indefinite postponements.


James Arthur Ross: Would the minister mind stating for how long the postponements

Questions
are granted? For instance, what is the limit in respect of the postponement a young man operating a farm or business might receive?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Usually postponements
do not exceed six months at any one time.


Mr. CHURCH:: The department ought to be abolished; it helps Hitler more than Canada.
The committee rose and obtained leave to sit again at the next sitting of the house.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the house adjourned at 10.33 p.m.
Wednesday, November 5, 1941