1941-11-06

QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	Does the cost of living bonus apply to the allowances paid to the dependents of members of Canada's armed forces?
2.	If so, is it being paid in accordance with the index of the rise in the cost of living?
3.	If it is not being paid in accordance with rise in the cost of living index, what provision is being made for these dependents to offset the increased costs of living?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	This matter is under consideration by the government.


IMPORTS AND EXPORTS OF STEEL SCRAP
Mr. REID:: 1.	What amount of steel scrap has been exported from British Columbia since June 1, 1941, to the end of September of the same year?
2.	What has been the importations of steel scrap in quantities and values into Canada during the past twelve months ending September 30, 1941?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Scrap iron or steel, 6,060 tons
2.	Cast scrap, 43,392 tons-$908,933; wrought scrap, 267,675 tons-$4,306,836. Totals 311,067 tons-$5,215,769.


Mr. REID:: Mr. Speaker, I would draw the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) to the fact
that my question is this: "What amount of steel scrap has been exported from British Columbia since June 1, 1941, to the end of September of the same year." The answer places the amount of scrap iron or steel at 6,060 tons. My question is as to the amount of steel scrap. I am not interested in scrap iron.


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: I have not the answer to the question before me, but my recollection is that the question asked has also been answered in a return which I tabled. In any event I shall look into the matter, and, if necessary, answer to-morrow.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. HOMUTH:: 1.	How many vacuum cleaners for cleaning furnaces were requisitioned by the Department of National Defence for Air?
2.	How many such vacuum cleaners were purchased?
3.	To what air ports or training centres were they delivered?
4.	From whom were they purchased?
5.	What was the total cost of same?


Mr. POWER:: Return tabled.


PRINTING AND ADVERTISING CONTRACTS
Mr. COLD WELL:: 1.	What printing or advertising contracts were placed with firms in Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa, London and Windsor, by the dominion government during the year ending March 31, 1941?
2.	Were all of such contracts let by tender, and were the lowest tenders accepted in each case?
3.	If not, what contracts were let without tender, what contracts, if any, were awarded to other than the lowest bidder, and for what reason in each case?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Return tabled.



ST. LAWRENCE WATERWAY STATEMENT OF PRIME MINISTER AS TO POSITION OF UNITED STATES LEGISLATION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Yesterday my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) asked a question concerning the position in the United States of the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence basin agreement. Legislation to

Joint Defence Production

give effect to the agreement is included in an omnibus bill also covering certain other works, which is now before the rivers and harbours committee of the United States House of Representatives. This bill has not yet been reported to the House of Representatives, but it is expected that it will be reported shortly.



WAR MUNITIONS AND SUPPLIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should like to lay on the table of the house copies in English and French of a statement concerning an agreement recently reached between the President of the United States and myself to accept the recommendation of the joint economic committees of Canada and the United States that a joint defence production committee be established for the purpose of coordinating most effectively the activities of the two countries for the production of defence material. I might add that the establishment of this committee had been arranged before I visited Hyde Park, and is not in the nature of anything growing out of the meeting that took place there between the president and myself.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Will that be published in the Votes and Proceedings?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If that might be done I should be pleased.
Yesterday the leader of the opposition also asked if the meeting between the president and myself was other than purely personal, as I had stated it to be. I would repeat what I have said already, that it was a purely personal week-end visit on the invitation of the president; but I would not like it to be assumed that the president and I had not discussed public matters. Certainly there was a very free exchange of both thought and information, and I cannot think of any subject we left untouched.



ALASKA HIGHWAY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):: I should like to ask the Prime Minister if the commission appointed some time ago to investigate the Alaska highway has made a report; and, if so, will the report be laid upon the table this session?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I know there has been an interim report of some kind. But perhaps my hon. friend would let me give him a more complete reply to-morrow.



DIVORCE


Mr. GEORGE BLACK (Yukon):: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege I would call the attention of the government to public bills and orders appearing on the order paper, and particularly to a bill standing in my name as order No. 12. This bill has passed the senate and has had a first reading in this chamber. Would it not be possible to have second and third readings of the bill in the house, if not at this session, then when the house meets again pursuant to adjournment and before prorogation? If the house prorogues without finishing the business on the order paper, all that has been done before will be washed out and will have to be done again. The bill would have to have three readings in this house, three in the senate, and receive royal assent. It is all but through this house, and I would ask the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to give me some indication as to what might be expected.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I would like to do anything reasonable and possible for my hon. friend. He may have noticed however that the senate has adjourned until January 21, and I believe that we would be wise not to attempt to proceed with any bill at least until the present year is out.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This bill is through the senate.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There would have to be royal assent as well. And in addition to that my hon. friend will realize that if we granted him this special request we might be faced with many similar requests, and it would be embarrassing to have to refuse any of them.


George Black: I understand that. I would not press to have it dealt with now. But could there be some assurance that this bill, and others in the same position, might be dealt with before this session is ended-perhaps next January?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should not like to give any assurance about next January.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Small hope.

The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson



THE WAR

[Stage Direction]
INTERNATIONAL SITUATION SINCE JUNE 14, 1941- Canada's war effort
The house in committee of the whole, Mr. Bradette in the Chair.
Horn J. T. THORSON (Minister of National War Services):: Mr. Speaker, at the adjournment last night I was dealing with applications for postponement under the national war services regulations. The board deals with each individual case on its merits. I think I may say, however, that in each case it is actuated by the national interest and the national economy. I would draw the attention of hon. members to the new section 14, which replaces the former one. This section appears in the Canada Gazette of October 7. Subsection 1 sets out the general principles upon which the board acts in consideration of applications for postponement. It reads as follows:
(1) When considering any application made in accordance with section 10 hereof-
This is the section which deals with the making of applications.
-the board before which the application is made shall have power to grant an advancement or postponement order when it is of the opinion that it is in the national interest to do so and, in granting such order, the board shall state the reasons for such opinion. No postponement order may be made for more than six months but, upon reviewing the application, the board may grant one or more extensions; provided that the board may cancel the order at any time for military reasons or for cause. Provided further that there shall be no exemption and no indefinite postponement of military training or service.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is the change?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: It is a lengthy regulation, but I would be prepared to read it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I did not wish the minister to read it. I thought perhaps he would be so familiar with it that he could tell us in a word what the change is.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The section in question makes it perfectly clear that in each case the board shall have sole disposition. The previous regulation contained a provision which placed certain responsibilities on the minister.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Is the change not to the effect that it establishes these exemption boards?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: No; the boards were in existence before. But this removes from the power of the minister the indication of any particular kind of direction to the board.
14873-259|


Richard Burpee Hanson: It takes the pull off the minister.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: It does more than that, although it does that to some extent. It sets out the principles upon which the board Shall be governed in each case of application for postponement.
Then, subsection 2 of the new section 14 is as follows:
(2) When considering an application for postponement order by a man engaged in farming, fishing, lumbering, trapping, mining, placer mining, gold prospecting, seafaring, railroad transportation, public utility, or engaged in an occupation which the minister has declared to be a seasonal occupation or one essential to the successful prosecution of the war or in the national interest, the board shall take into account the supply of labour available and the importance of the particular applicant's occupation to the national economy.
I am reasonably well satisfied that these national war services regulations as amended by order in council P.C. 7680 appearing in the Canada Gazette of October 7, 1941, will enable the divisional boards to reconcile the needs of the fighting services with those of war industry, farming and other essential occupations in the national interest. These postponement applications have imposed very heavy duties upon these boards. I should like to pay a tribute to the boards for the manner in which they have discharged their most difficult functions.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What was the occasion for the amendment? Was a request received from the boards, or was there some loose position that needed to be tightened up?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: It was suggested from time to time that directions should be communicated to the boards with regard to certain classes of occupations. The purposes of the amendment will be perfectly apparent to any one who studies the former regulation and the present one side by side.
Perhaps the committee might be interested in knowing what has happened, with regard to these postponement applications. It may be interesting to know that out of 19,186 applications for postponement received from farmers during the first nine military training periods, 10,046 were granted by the divisional boards, or 52-4 per cent. The total number of applications for postponement in connection with all seasonal occupations, war industries and others, amounted to 43,390, of which 28,812 were granted, or 66-4 per cent.
There are some aspects of the system that are not very satisfactory. The calling up of men for military training has revealed that the
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state of health of Canada's youth is much below what might properly be considered the standard of fitness for young men in a virile nation. Out of a total of 217,588 men examined up to October 2, 1941, only about 56 per cent were placed in category A, the only category that is accepted for training at the present time by the Department of National Defence. This is a serious situation, and the plans for the reconditioning of these men who have been rejected are under consideration by an interdepartmental committee consisting of representatives of the Department of National Defence, the Department of Pensions and National Health and the Department of National War Services. Naturally, we are interested in this situation, and if it is possible to recondition these men so that they may be made fit for service, every possible effort will be made in that direction.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Would the minister indicate how the experience here compares with the draft situation in the United States?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I am not able to make that comparison.


Mr. STIRLING:: It is very similar.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I would think that perhaps there would not be a great difference between the experience of the United States and that of Canada, but I have not the figures for the United States before -me from which I could make an exact comparison.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: A total of 900,000 men were rejected out of 2,000,000, and of those 200,000 are to be reconditioned immediately.


Mr. MacINNIS:: Are any steps being taken to improve the health condition of those youths who are not yet eligible for the draft? The minister has said that those who have been rejected are to be reconditioned if possible in order that they may be accepted lor sendee, and that seems a rather hit-or-miss policy to pursue. We should begin at the foundation; we should see that those who are coming up will have such a measure of health that they will -be able to pass.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The hon. member has raised a serious question, but I think he will realize that I can hardly attempt to deal with such a matter during a discussion of the national war services regulations and. their operations.


Angus MacInnis: I would think so.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The hon. member ncs
brought up an important question which is worthy of the utmost consideration.


Angus MacInnis: I would think that the
minister was speaking for the government, not just for his department.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I am trying to outline the manner in which the national war services regulations have been wrorking and the experiences which have resulted from their operations.


Mr. McGREGOR:: Has the minister the
figures for the different provinces?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Those are all available,
and if the hon. member is interested in those figures they will be available to him. I wonder if I might not proceed with the general discussion of the matter and then deal with the various questions that may arise later on. Hon. members will appreciate the fact that there are numerous regulations, that their aspects are manifold and that it would be difficult to cover the operations of my department in a general way unless I confine myself to the highlights, if indeed there are any.
The number of men called for military training under the regulations for the first three training periods of thirty days was 94,852; for the fourth to ninth periods under the four months system, 28,605, or a total of 123,457. The men who reported to training centres during the first three periods numbered 89,524; for the fourth to ninth periods, 24,000, making a total of 113,524. I was in error yesterday when I stated that I thought there was no subsequent medical examination. The fact is that there is an examination when the men report to the training centres.
The number of men rejected on medical grounds during the first three periods numbered 7,823; for the fourth to ninth periods, 2,177, or a total of 10,000. If we take the 1,102 men who reported late for training and who were accepted, and deduct the number rejected on medical grounds, we have a total of 104,626 men who were given training in the first nine training periods.


Mr. BROOKS:: Is there not a duplication
there? Some men reported for the thirty days and were afterwards called up for the four months.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Not in this table. There are still a number of men who have done only thirty days training and who are being called up under the new proclamation.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: They are being called up at
present?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes. There are, as
members will realize, a great many other questions arising out of the regulations, but I think I may say this in a general way, that

The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
while there are difficulties to be ironed out, the national war services regulations have in the main worked out in a highly satisfactory manner.
I should like now to pass on to another function that is assigned to the mobilization division. That is the raising of women volunteers for service with the active forces. In addition to the calling out of men for compulsory military training, the mobilization division of the Department of National War Services is responsible for the recruiting of women volunteers for the Canadian Women's Army Corps and the Canadian Women's Auxiliary Air Force. In view of the ever-increasing demands upon Canada's available manpower by the armed forces, war industries, agriculture and other essential occupations and services, the government announced on June 26, 1941, its formal decision to form women auxiliaries for the Canadian Army and the Royal Canadian Air Force. These auxiliaries will permit the releasing of considerable numbers of men already in the service for combatant duty elsewhere. Several thousand women volunteers who will serve as full-time auxiliaries in the armed forces will be enlisted within the next year. From time to time the Department of National War Services is asked by one of the defence departments to find women volunteers who are qualified in accordance with the standards laid down by the armed forces. All these applications for enlistment are received into the Department of National VVar Services, where the applicant's qualifications are carefully assessed, candidates possessing the required' qualifications are subsequently notified to report for medical examination and those who are physically fit are notified to report for enlistment.
Since the 1st of September of this year, when the first women's recruits were received, some 600 women have been enlisted in the Canadian Women's Auxiliary Corps and the Canadian Women's Auxiliary Air Force. As the facilities for the proper housing of the women personnel are carried to completion by the defence departments, larger numbers of women will be notified to report for enlistment. The response of the women of Canada to the appeal for volunteers has been magnificent. Up to the present time approximately 16,000 women have written to the department. They have been given the necessary information with regard to enlistment and have received the necessary application forms, and we have in the department over 5,000 applications from women who are being accepted for service later on. I should state that included in this number is a very considerable number of women from the United States who have
indicated their desire to serve with their Canadian sisters in these auxiliary services. In order to build a large reserve of physically fit and qualified women volunteers, plans towards the intensification of recruiting are now being worked out. With the exception of a very few direct entry officers appointed by the armed forces concerned, all promotions to non-commissioned officer or officer rank will be made from the ranks by the defence department concerned.
I should like to pay tribute to the many women's volunteer organizations throughout Canada which have in a commendable and patriotic spirit trained women with a view to fitting them for more active participation in the war effort of this country. The women of Canada are playing an increasingly important part in the war effort. For the first time in the history of this country with the exception of the women in the nursing services, the women of Canada are taking their place side by side with the men. But this is not the full extent of the contribution which the women of Canada are making to our war effort. By the thousands Canadian women are working in armament and munitions plants and in first-aid classes and are contributing in innumerable other ways to the cause of victory.
There is one other function of the mobilization division to which I should like to make passing reference. The prisoners of war information bureau of the Department of National War Services gives information to next of kin concerning Canadian sailors, soldiers and airmen who have fallen into the hands of the enemy, Canadian merchant seamen who have been taken prisoner of war and Canadian citizens who are interned in enemy or enemy occupied countries. After it has been definitely ascertained that a Canadian has become a prisoner of war and the next of kin has been notified by the service to which he belongs or, in the case of a merchant seaman, by the ship on which he was employed, the case is turned over to the prisoners of war information bureau. It is the duty of this bureau to keep the next of kin advised on all matters pertaining to these prisoners of war and internees. Instructions covering all the regulations established under the international convention relative to prisoners of war are sent to the next of kin, and they are given information as to how to communicate with the prisoner, how to forward parcels and what such parcels may contain.
Recently the government asked the Department of National War Services to undertake an additional function. Canada will send to the aid of Britain Canadian fire fighters for
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The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
service in Britain. In this way Canada will once again answer the call for assistance and will send civilian fire fighters to assist in the protection of the lives and property of those persons in Britain who are so barbarously being attacked from the air. The chief of the new unit which will consist in the first place of approximately 400 men has been appointed, Mr. D. A. Boulden, chief of the Winnipeg fire department. The work of organizing the corps is progressing, and it is hoped that this corps may be in a position to render assistance to Great Britain in a very short period of time.
If I may now pass from this division to that of the division of public information, I should like to say a few words with regard to this important function which has been assigned to my department. I can say this with regard to the bureau of public information, that with the exception of the stage, it now operates in every known field for the distribution of news and informative material on the Canadian war effort and has done so since the start of the fiscal year. I do not intend to detain the committee with a great volume of statistical matter with regard to the number of releases, the number of items of literature that are put out by the bureau; but I should like to say just a few words with regard to the manner in which the bureau functions and the activities of the various branches of the bureau.
In addition to the material which the bureau produces itself, it also acts as a distribution centre for news material produced by the three departments of national defence, the Department of Munitions and Supply, the War-time Prices and Trade Board, and the Department of National War Services. The mailing list includes every daily and every important weekly newspaper in Canada, and, for public information material, that is material which is prepared by the bureau itself, about 400 daily and weekly newspapers in the United States. All of the United States newspapers to which I have referred have especially requested this material.
The French branch does not concern itself with any activities in the United States, but otherwise it operates in the same way as the English one.
One of the important activities of the bureau lies in the photographic field. The bureau maintains its own photograph branch with two staff photographers. It also acts as a distributing organization for the air force, the army and the navy; but, as their photographic services have not been particularly active in the period under review, that is since the end of the last fiscal year, about 90 per cent of the

work is initiated and carried out by the bureau of public information. It sends these photographic prints to Canadian papers and Canadian syndicates, to United States papers and United States syndicates, to other parts of the empire, to publications other than newspapers and syndicates, and sends a considerable number for window and other display services. In the period that I have mentioned there was a total distribution of photographic prints of over 45,000.
In addition to the photographic prints, the photographic branch also looks after the production and distribution of mats which are sent to the daily and weekly newspapers. An exclusive service is provided for the weekly newspapers, this being the first time that the weekly newspapers of Canada have been so treated, and the weekly newspapers have on many occasions expressed their appreciation of the service thus rendered.
Since August of this year a weekly mat service has been distributed in the United States This service is sent only to those newspapers which ask for it; and the total has now reached over 2,000 small weeklies and large dailies per week.
The bureau of public information also operates in the motion-picture field, and I shall have much pleasure later on in the course of my remarks to say something about the magnificent performance of the national film board and the relationship between the national film board and the bureau of information.
The bureau of information also operates in the closest cooperation with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
The public information Sunday night programme, "Carry On, Canada!" is now in the twentieth consecutive month of its career, and recent surveys have indicated that it still holds, if not the top-ranking position, very close to the top-ranking position among all commercial or non-commercial radio features originating in Canada. The bureau works in the closest possible manner with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in the production of this feature, providing many of the ideas and much of the basic material, and steps are now under way for the further strengthening and improvement of that feature.
In April, the radio feature "Canadians All" was still on the air, and continued until the middle of May, attracting a wide audience and much favourable comment.
A French section is on the air with the radio feature "1'Histoire en Marche", which is a sort of French version of "Carry On, Canada!" It also has several features in the process of organization.

The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
Then I should like to say a few words about the library which exists in the bureau of information. I think I' may safely say that the bureau of public information maintains what is undoubtedly the best war library in Canada based upon topical information. Most of the material is secured from newspapers and magazines, although a number of important books on war subjects are also on its shelves. A small staff of readers scans fifty Canadian fifteen United States and seven British daily newspapers a week, and 123 Canadian and ten United States weekly papers a week. They mark material which they consider of interest, and these items are then clipped. The approximate number of clippings filed each month is over 3,000. These are filed by fully qualified librarians in accordance with library procedure and are instantly available on very short demand. Approximately 260 periodicals, weekly, monthly and quarterly., are read and indexed each month. The value of the library branch of the bureau of public information is becoming more and more widely known, and no day passes without its visitors and frequent requests for data.
In addition to the members of the bureau, who, of course, make an extensive use of the library, members of parliament are using it; so are the high commissioners with offices in Canada, Washington and London; consulates in Canada; libraries and universities in Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States; schools and study groups; news writers and editors. The library can, I am sure, be of very great service to anyone who wishes to obtain material on any subject affecting the war, because, in addition to the factual material which is on the files, the library is also in the possession of regular source material on almost any subject related to the war.
I am happy to be able to say that there is the utmost cooperation between the bureau of public information and other publicity branches of the various departments which have such publicity branches. Members of the bureau attend all meetings of the recruiting committee of the Department of National Defence, and I think I may say that they have contributed valuable service to that committee, not only in an advisory capacity but also in the actual carrying out of some of the activities. Similar assistance is also being rendered to the other war departments of the government. The office has cooperated in the closest possible manner with the Department of National Defence and the Department of Munitions and Supply in respect of various activities of those departments.
When I took over the functions which have now been assigned to me, I saw the terms in the statute relating to the coordination of the existing public information services of the government. I also had before me the experience of other ministries of information in attempting to bring together into one department the publicity branches of all other departments. There had already been set up in many of the departments of the government publicity branches that were doing most excellent work, and I came to the conclusion that it would be both unwise and undesirable to attempt to bring all the publicity branches of all the departments into one department under one head.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is the bureau of public information attempting to edit any of the material that comes from these other publicity sources, or does it pass out such material irrespective?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: In respect of its functions as a distributor for the departments of national defence, of munitions and supply, and the other departments I mentioned a moment ago, it acts only as a distribution agency and does not in any way reedit the news releases that come from the departments. Instead of seeking, therefore, to bring all the publicity branches of all departments of the government into one department, we set upon a different course-that of establishing an interdepartmental committee composed of representatives of the various publicity branches of	all	the	departments	ofgovernment. The chairman of this interdepartmental committee is one of my deputy ministers, Hon. T.	C.	Davis. Included	inthis committee, in addition to the representatives of the bureau of public information, are representatives of the three branches of national defence,	of	the	Department	ofMunitions and Supply, of the Department of Labour, of the Wartime Prices and Trade Board, of the Bank of Canada, of the Foreign Exchange Control Board, of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, of the National Film Board and	of	the	Department	of
External Affairs. Other departments are invited to send representatives to this committee whenever subjects of interest to their own departments are to be discussed. The committee sits once a week for the purpose of determining how best the various publicity branches of all the departments of the government may cooperate to the one end, namely, the furtherance of the war effort of Canada and the accomplishment of the objective of this department, that is to say, to bring the people of Canada and the war effort of the nation as close to one another as possible.
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I believe in this cooperative attitude to the various publicity branches of the departments of the government, rather than in the coordinating attitude, if one means by that the attempt to bring all the publicity branches of the government into one channel. Indeed, I am of the opinion that it would be wise and in the public interest that in every department of the government which has any great impact upon the public there should be a publicity or public relations branch. The need for proper public relations between the departments of the government and the people, is, I think, of paramount importance; indeed, I believe that a proper sense of public relationship is an essential element of democratic government.
Our literature distribution is based upon actual demand from the public; that is to say, we do not send out large quantities of unsolicited printed matter. Roughly speaking it can be said, that all literature sent out by our office is sent because it is asked for. During the past six months, from May 1 to October 31, we have distributed a total of over 13,000,000 pieces of printed matter, not including posters. This total is broken down into English 8,537,845, French 3,835,576, and bilingual 649,728.
I should like to call attention particularly to a leaflet that has been produced by the bureau of public information, entitled Canada's War Record. This is a leaflet with which all hon. members are familiar. It is full of facts about Canada's participation in the war. It was designed, primarily for presentation to persons crossing the United States boundary, to enable southbound Canadians to talk intelligently to their friends in that country about the war effort of Canada, and to inform northbound travellers about our war effort when such travellers enter Canada. This leaflet is revised and re-issued each month. In June our first experimental printing of it totalled 100,000 copies. Since then there has been an ever-increasing demand for this particular publication, and in October it was necessary for us to print 550,000. It appears likely that in a few months we shall be obliged to print about 1,000,000 copies per month to meet the demand that has arisen.
I may say in passing that the British ministry of information are interested in the distribution through south and central America of several million copies of the leaflet, printed in Spanish. I cannot give an exact statement as to how many copies of the leaflet are being distributed throughout the United States, but I think I may safely say that over a quarter of a million are being circulated there per month at the present time.

I might say more about one other activity of the bureau of public information, namely, that which has to do with the publication of posters. We are making very considerable progress in that regard. While there has been a great deal of progress in the activities of the bureau of public information, I for one am not entirely satisfied that we have gone as far as it is possible to go. In the field of public information it is rarely possible, if indeed it ever is, to go as far as it is desirable to go. However, we have in mind the establishment of other branches of the bureau, one of which will deal with the people of Canada who speak languages other than English or French. We have in mind also the establishment of a speakers' branch of the bureau of public information.
The subject of the activities of the bureau or of the government, in the matter of public information in the United States has received a great deal of attention from the administration, but I cannot add to what the Prime Minister has said, that the method of giving additional information to the United States with regard to the war effort of Canada is under careful consideration. In respect of the activities of the bureau of public information, I should like to pay a tribute to Mr. Lash and to his associates for their devotion to duty, their unremitting efforts, and their very considerable success in the promotion of public information.
I said yesterday that the object of the bureau of information was to bring the war effort of Canada as close to the people, and the people as close to the war effort, as possible. I realize the difficulties involved. I realize, too, that ministries of information have exceedingly difficult tasks imposed upon them. I have admitted that I am not fully satisfied with the steps that have been taken; but I can say that a great deal of progress has been made and I am confident that a great deal more progress can and will be made. In the bureau we now have a staff of able men and women, for whose efforts I am very grateful. I can further say, in a general way, that while the task in connection with public information is a difficult one, it is likewise an interesting one. There is a challenge in the difficulty itself. I have not in the past shrunk from challenges when my heart was in a cause. My heart is in this cause, and I shall not shrink from the challenge that presents itself in this particular field.
Now I shall deal somewhat briefly with other functions related to the matter of public information.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before the minister leaves this topic, surely he intends to

The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
deal with the startling statement of the director which I read into the record yesterday. I want an answer to that challenge; I want to know how this department is "entoiled in the meshes of the red tape of an archaic system of government." There is a challenge to the minister which he must meet, and not with platitudes.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: It might also be well if the leader of the opposition would quote the whole of the statement.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I had not seen the whole statement up to the time of preparing my address.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: This is what Mr. Lash said:
I could talk to you about the work of my office, but to me that is a somewhat difficult subject. Public information has done some useful things but, like a number of other war departments, it is so entoiled in the meshes of the red tape of an archaic system of government that the things it has been able to do are not, in the opinion of those of us who work there, as important as the things it might have been doing, and which-
This is what the leader of the opposition did not mention:
-we hope we still may be able to do.
This is simply the statement of a man who has come into the public service, expressing some irritation over some of the necessary, essential controls. If the whole speech is read in its totality, it is simply the expression of a man who is intensely keen to do everything possible and who realizes the impossibility of doing everything at once. For instance, he finds himself confronted with the necessity of building up a staff, which perhaps he cannot build up as quickly as personally he would like to do; yet he has the hope that the job may be done, and the determination that the job will be done.
Since its inception the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has carried on an important activity. When I assumed supervision over the broadcasting aspects of the corporation I attempted to enunciate certain general and fundamental principles; and I pledged myself then, as I do now, to the maintenance of the integrity of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as an independent corporation and a great national instrument. I hope to defend it to the utmost of my ability against its enemies, if it has any. In its programme department the broadcasting corporation has continued to seek an expansion of war effort features, on the one hand commentaries and special broadcasts, and on the other hand the development of new entertainment ideas. As an example of growing interest I may mention
the fact that following the end of the first series of "We Have Been There" talks, which featured personal impressions given by competent observers fresh from visits to the United Kingdom, nearly fifteen thousand paid requests for copies of the talks were received at the offices of the corporation. Notwithstanding the fact that these programmes were carried only in Canada, requests for copies of this booklet also were received from most of the states of the union. This fact alone, without taking into consideration the programmes carried on behalf of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation by the various United States networks, is evidence that the story of Canada's war effort is reaching at least a part of the population to the south of us.
I should point out that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation does not function as a news-gathering agency. It is not responsible for the gathering of news; it relies upon authorized news agency dispatches for the preparation of the bulletins.
In the United Kingdom the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's overseas unit, which now has a staff of six, plays an ever-increasing part in maintaining the link between Canadians at home and overseas. A steady weekly flow of programmes is transmitted between Canada and the old country through the medium of short wave relay and recordings. Regular news bulletins, news features and important declarations are transmitted from Great Britain, recorded and distributed by the broadcasting corporation's receiving station near Ottawa, and then broadcast over a nation-wide network, as well as over some stations in the United States.
Contemplated Canadian Broadcasting Corporation programmes include a series entitled "Brothers in Arms," which will tell the stories of nationals of occupied countries who have fought their way out from under the nazi yoke to arrive in Canada and train with the armies of freedom.
Generally I may say that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation plays an increasingly important part in furthering the war effort of the country, and plans are under way for further cooperation between the broadcasting corporation and the bureau of public information.
Now I should like to say something about the national film board, and I speak of the activities of this board with great joy and pride. The activities of the board are now spreading over almost all the world that is not under nazi domination.
Perhaps the outstanding work that the board is doing in the production of films is being done for the director of public information, under the now well-known film series called
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"Canada Carries On." These films which deal with the broader aspects of Canada's war activity come out once a month. They circulate in French and English versions to about nine hundred theatres in this country. The Canadian audience for each film is estimated at approximate!}' 2,500,000 people. I believe I may quite properly say of the "Canada Carries On" films that they are noted for their dramatic quality not only in Canada but in the wider film industry outside Canada. Arrangements have recently been completed which will ensure their theatre circulation in most of the countries of the world free from nazi domination.
May I give a brief indication of the manner in which the distribution of these films has proceeded. I have told the committee that the films appear in approximately nine hundred theatres in Canada. They are contracted for by the theatres, which are indeed glad to have them, by reason of their quality. Lavender prints from which new negatives and other prints may be taken are sent to the news reels in New York, the Twentieth Century Fox in Australia, the Ministry of Information in the United Kingdom and the High Commissioner for Canada in the Union of South Africa.
The "Canada Carries On" series is distributed in Australia, New Zealand, the Netherlands East Indies, and the Straits Settlements through the Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation. They also go to Thailand and India. Some seven hundred to eight hundred theatres exhibit these films in Australia and New Zealand. Figures for the other areas in Australasia are not available at the moment, but a recent report indicates that between forty and fifty -theatres exhibit these films in Thailand.
The High Commissioner for Canada in the Union of South Africa has arranged for theatrical distribution of the films in the "Canada Carries On" series through Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, Twentieth Century Fox and The American Consolidated Theatres. These comprise all the major theatres in south Africa.
In the British West Indies, Columbia Pictures of New York distribute the "Canada Carries On" series commercially throughout the theatres of the British West Indies.
In the United Kingdom the "Canada Carries On" series was first distributed through Paramount Pictures. It reached several hundred theatres. Distribution of national film board war productions in the United Kingdom is now in the hands of the British Ministry of Information, and we have not received complete reports from them. The government film commissioner has lately arranged for the

United Artists to distribute one of the recent films, "The Battle of Oil," in the United Kingdom.
In the United States the national film board has not undertaken extensive commercial distribution, but several issues of the "Canada Carries On" series have been widely shown in news-reel theatres from coast to coast in such cities as New York, Cleveland, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles and other places.
I believe I can say generally that the distribution of this series is proceeding in a satisfactory manner in many parts of the world. These films have ranged in subject matter from descriptions of life in the Canadian forces, such as the pictures, "Heroes of the Atlantic" and "Soldiers All" to descriptions of Ottawa office workers and Winnipeg volunteer women's services, and the vital war contribution of Canada's miners, as in the pictures "A Tale of Two Cities" and "The Strategy of Metals." They have ranged from an account of Canada's religious and racial tolerance, in the picture "Peoples of Canada," to the strategy of the battle of Britain, the war work of the scientists, and the significance of the world's struggle for oil. "Churchill's Island," for example, "The Battle of Britain" and "The Battle for Oil" are illustrative of what I have said.
Perhaps the most remarkable film picture ever taken is that of "Churchill's Island", for it actually depicts German gunners firing their guns, and show's German airmen taking off. These pictures were actually taken by Germans themselves, then captured and incorporated in the thrilling picture known as "Churchill's Island".
I believe Canada is very fortunate in having as commissioner of the national film board a man of such genius in the film field as Mr. John Grierson. In addition to its activities in this field the board carries on other activities for many other departments of government. They have produced numerous films, trailers and the like in support of the campaigns for recruits, war loans, war savings, salvage, oil conservation, and even the cheerful payment of income tax.
The board is also active in the promotion of tourist activity.
It has been an important part of our work in the board to command large theatre audiences for films w'hich describe the Canadian war effort, and stimulate civic cooperation. The national film board, however, regards it as equally important to bring this film service to the rural communities of Canada, so many of which are out of touch with the theatres. Working in cooperation with the departments of education of the provinces, the national film society, and vari-

The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
ous groups within the film industry itself, the non-theatrical circulation of the national film board productions has been greatly extended, and we now have repositories of our government motion-picture films in all parts of the country, so that they are easily available to educational, civic, agricultural and other interested groups. It has been a special satisfaction to me to note that our films have been particularly useful in the teaching of citizenship in both schools and training camps.
I wish the time at my disposal permitted a wider treatment of this extremely interesting activity which has been placed in my charge, but I should like to say that it is the policy of the board to make all its films in both French and English versions. In certain cases, however, films are produced in French alone, on account of the specialized interest of the theme. For example, owing to the lack of French news reels we issue monthly a news reel produced under the title of "Les Actuali-tes Canadiennes". This, however, does not exhaust the various linguistic responsibilities of the board. For our south American circulation we are obliged to make Spanish and Portuguese versions; for south Africa we have undertaken to make an Afrikaans version, and in the circulation afforded to some of our films through the British Ministry of Information we are involved in other languages still.
I hesitate to interject a personal note, but it was my great pleasure to speak the commentary in Icelandic for one of the films produced by the Canadian National Film Board and subsequently sent by the government of Canada to the government of Iceland. This film was entitled "Iceland on the Prairies". We are gradually getting together many films of the same kind depicting the life of various racial groups which recognize this country as their own. My work as chairman of the national film board has brought me into a new and unaccustomed field, but I must confess that it has had special forms of attraction. I am satisfied with the progress that has been made and am proud of the fact that we have such an organization in existence in this country at this time.
I am speaking at greater length than I thought I would, but I should like to say a few words about another division of my department, the one having to do with war charities. This division exercises important functions in respect of the supervision of war charities. These war charities occupy an important part in the war effort of this country because they afford an outlet to thousands of men and women in Canada who are anxious to make some contribution to the war effort of this country. Early in the
activities in this department the administration of the War Charities Act was assigned to this department. The department seeks to exercise the greatest possible care so that only bona fide funds may be registered. All war charities must be registered. We seek also to avoid any attempt at commercialization of war charities and to coordinate the various activities of the many war charities that now exist in this country.
The object of the War Charities Act is to provide a measure of control and regulation over the voluntary efforts of organizations throughout Canada who may desire to raise funds for war charitable purposes. A war charity fund is defined in the act as "any fund having for its objects or among its objects any purpose, charitable or otherwise, arising out of or connected with the war". Under the act any organization which makes an appeal to the public for donations or subscriptions in money or in kind for any war charity fund or which attempts to do so by sponsoring a bazaar or any other form of entertainment for that purpose must be registered.
Since the act was assented to on September 13, 1939, and up to October 29, 1941, a total of 1,312 central funds have been registered. In addition, 821 branch funds have been registered under certain central funds, which makes a grand total of 2,133 war charities funds registered in this manner. During this period the registrations of some 15 funds were cancelled by the administrator, while the cancellation of 49 registrations was requested by the funds themselves. The registrations of 31 central funds have been cancelled because they are now operating as branches of registered funds. This leaves a net total of 1,217 central funds, 852 branch funds, or a grand total of 2,069 war charities operating in Canada at the present time.
I cannot give an exact statement of the amounts of money that have been raised by these various war charities, but I can make an approximate statement. About $27,000,000 was reported from September, 1939, to March 31, 1941. Of course this includes the Canadian Red Cross Society appeal of 1940 and the Canadian war services fund drive of March, 1941. With regard to the subject of war charities generally, may I say that the department feels that the whole field of war charities has now been fairly well covered and that it should not be necessary for new organizations to be constantly brought into the field. I would suggest that a consolidation of effort rather than an expansion in the number of funds should be sought. The division of war charities will seek to carry this principle into
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effect and an effort will be made to prevent any rapid increase in the number of organizations to be registered under the act.
I would point out that under the provisions of the act it is necessary for all funds to furnish an audited financial statement of their receipts and expenditures as at March 31 of each year. This year financial statements will be required as at December 31.
In the course of the administration of the War Charities Act it has been found necessary to make an effort to ensure that a larger percentage of the money contributed by the people for war charities should actually reach the war charities and not be eaten up by organizational or other expenditures. Accordingly a new regulation, No. 15, was promulgated recently. This provides as follows:
No fund registered under the War Charities Act, 1939, shall undertake any special .project such as a carnival, bazaar, show, exhibition or other entertainment unless the estimated cost of such special project shall not exceed 25 per cent of the anticipated gross proceeds, and registration shall not be granted to any fund which proposes to undertake any such special project except subject to the condition that the estimated cost of any such project shall not exceed 25 per cent of the anticipated gross proceeds.
The purpose of this regulation, is to ensure that at least seventy-five per cent of all money contributed for war charities shall actually reach the war charities.
It has also been found that the bringing in of talent from outside Canada is a costly way of raising funds for war charities. Another regulation, No. 16, has, therefore, been enacted, providing as follows:
A registered fund which plans to engage the services of entertainment talent from outside Canada must first secure the permission of the minister.
These regulations were passed for the purpose of ensuring that the greatest portion of every dollar that the people of Canada contribute to war charities shall actually go to the war charities.
Another important function has been assigned to the war charities division. It is related to the one I have just discussed, but it is more closely concerned with the supervision of the great national organizations such as the great auxiliary war services organizations, the Canadian Red Cross Society, the Independent Order of the Daughters of the Empire, the Navy League of Canada, and other such national organizations.
All of these are war charities; to the department has been assigned the important function of exercising budgetary supervision in 
respect of the amounts for which they' wish to make a national appeal. There are five of these national auxiliary war service organizations, having their sponsorship in such organizations as the Canadian Legion, the Knights of Columbus, the Salvation Army, the Young Men's Christian Association and the Young Women's Christian Association. These national organizations are concerned with the supplying of auxiliary services to Canadian troops both at home and abroad. They operate in their activities under the direction of the director of auxiliary services in the defence department. Last spring all five of these national organizations came into one united joint drive for funds, together with the Independent Order of the Daughters of the Empire in respect of the branches of that order in the four western provinces. The objective which the joint drive had in mind was So,500,000. The people of Canada contributed 37,000,000. Last year the Canadian Red Cross Society conducted a separate drive. Its objective was $5,000,000, and the Canadian public contributed $6,000,000.
Last year an effort was made to bring about a united drive in which the national auxiliary war service organizations and the Canadian Red Cross society should combine. The efforts that were made to bring about such a joint drive failed for a variety of reasons. I am very glad to be able to say that now, in the next national drive, the national auxiliary war services organizations that I have mentioned, and the Canadian Red Cross Society will join in one national appeal in the spring of 1942 at a date to be announced later. I am also glad to be able to say that the Navy League of Canada, which has been doing such excellent service in the interests of the men of the sea, will also join in this national drive. Other applications for leave to join in this drive are under consideration.
The government has been seeking to reduce the number of national appeals to the Canadian public for funds, and to coordinate and systematize these national drives. The general policy of the government is this, that the fall of the year should be reserved for drives of a peace-time nature, such as community chest drives and appeals of other public welfare organizations of a similar nature; for the government realizes the necessity of maintaining the ordinary everyday charitable activities of the communities of Canada. Then it is proposed that the spring shall be reserved for all the national war service organizations, including organizations which supply auxiliary services to our troops, the Canadian Red Cross society and other national organizations. This

The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
will leave the rest of the year clear for the necessary government financing by way of campaigns for war savings certificates and war loans.
Next year, in the spring, the joint drive of which I have been speaking will probably make an appeal to the Canadian public for a large sum of money, from seventeen to twenty million dollars. It is therefore essential that there should be as close a supervision as possible over the budgets of these organizations, for the sum of money which I have indicated is a very large one. But just as no appeal which has ever been made to the Canadian public has failed, so I am confident that the Canadian people will respond to this appeal that will be made to them in the spring in order that the magnificent services performed by these organizations may be carried on with full success.	.
In December of last year, under order in council P.C. 7273, dated December 11, 1940, an advisory board was established by the Department of National War Services entitled the National War Charities Funds Advisory board, under the chairmanship of Mr. C. L. Burton. This board deals in the first instance with all applications for leave to conduct a national drive. The board functions only in an advisory capacity. It is through the operations of this advisory board that the principles of budgetary control and supervision of expenditures are applied. AH the funds that are contributed- by the public of Canada in respect of the national auxiliary service organizations go into the custody of one central organization called the Canadian War Services Fund Incorporated. No moneys are paid out of this fund except on the direction of the minister. The minister acts on the recommendation, if he approves it, of the advisory board of which I have spoken.
I have attempted to stress again and again the importance of the strictest budgetary supervision and the strictest control of expenditures. It is not the wish of this department to curtail activities. We do not exercise budgetary control or supervision of expenditures with a view to curtailing services -not at all. We know that the public contributes all of this necessary money and that if it is not obtained from the public the services cannot be performed at all. Therefore I like to think of this exercise of budgetary supervision and1 control of expenditures as being in aid of the objectives of these organizations and helpful to them. The public is entitled to know when an appeal is made to it for funds that there has been a strict scrutiny of the budgets, that the objectives are worth while, and that there will be the
most careful check on expenditures. I have indicated to the committee the manner in which we are trying to give that assurance to the public. All the funds contributed by the public go into the fund. They are paid out only on the direction of the minister, and the minister has the benefit of the advice of the advisory board which I have mentioned, and that advisory board exercises careful budgetary supervision over the budgets presented by the various organizations before they go into the drive. The objective of the drive is fixed after the budgets have been carefully supervised in this manner. Then the expenditures are made only in the manner that I have indicated. If the public coptri-butes more than the objective of the drive, as was the case on the occasion of the last drive, then the various organizations who participate in the drive submit supplementary budgets to the advisory board; these supplementary budgets are checked with care and recommendations made to the minister to write to the central fund advising that moneys may be released from the fund.
Speaking generally with regard to the organization of war charities, while a good deal remains to be done in the matter of coordination of war charities, I may fairly report that satisfactory progress has been made.
With regard to one other division of my department, the division of women's voluntary services, I stated yesterday that I was very happy indeed to be able to announce the creation of this new division. I was glad to be able to announce it by reason of the increasing participation of the women of Canada in the war effort of our country. I have indicated to the committee the splendid manner in which the women of Canada have volunteered for active service in the Canadian Women's Auxiliary Corps and in the Canadian Women's Auxiliary Air Force side by side with their brothers in arms. I have indicated also the magnificent contribution that is being made in everincreasing degree by the women of Canada in the war factories, the munitions plants, and the war industries of Canada generally. But the women who serve in the armed forces and who work by the thousands in munitions plants and war factories are not the only women who are doing war service in Canada. The women who keep the heart of the nation sound by doing their daily tasks in the homes and in the communities are doing war service of the highest possible order. It is essential in time of war, even more so than in peace time, that the life of the community should be maintained, that the aged and the needy should
4110	COMMONS
The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
be assisted, that the dependents of our fighting men should be comforted in time of need and that the men themselves should be encouraged and remembered. It also is essential that the great national war auxiliary services organization, and such great national organizations as the Canadian Red Cross society and other war charities, should be fully supported. The women can organize in a variety of ways; two plans were at first suggested to me: one, that representatives of the great women's organizations of Canada should be asked to assemble in Canada in a conference with a view to building a great women's organization for coordination purposes. That plan was discarded. The great national women's organizations of Canada are doing excellent sendee in their own respective fields. Another plan is being adopted in the place of the one that I have mentioned. It is in the communities of Canada that the women of Canada will be doing their work. We have therefore felt that we should take steps to promote the organization by the women themselves of women's organizations on the basis of what I shall call community solidarity. The women in their own communities can organize and coordinate their activities on the basis of this community solidarity. They can form pools of volunteer workers in their own communities for all of the purposes of the communities and for the purposes of the nation as well. In that way, I suggest, they can best mobilize their efforts in the maintenance of the morale of our country; for I feel this, that if the needs of the community are met as only the womenfolk can meet them, the heart of the nation will be kept sound. Many of these tasks performed by the women of Canada are dull and prosaic. There is not a vestige of glamour attached to them, and no publicity. Yet they are necessary tasks in time of peace; they are vital when the nation is at war. Our women in this respect are the guardians of the morale of the nation. It is my hope that this new division will be of considerable assistance in that regard.
_ I shall deal only very briefly with the remaining division which has been assigned to my department-the salvage division. The origin of this division lay in the fact that there was a large salvage movement in Great Britain and in other parts of the commonwealth, and also in the fact that hundreds of Canadians were writing to the various departments of the government suggesting that much might be done to assist the war effort by the collection of salvage. With that in mind, the officials in the Department of National War Services suggested a salvage campaign. While at that 
time there did not appear to be any great apparent shortage of material, the first thought of the campaign was to further the spirit of thrift in the minds of our people and provide an outlet for the patriotic desire of many people to assist in the war effort. It was also anticipated that, as the war industries increased their demands, there would be an evergrowing demand for raw materials, making the collection of salvage absolutely necessary. As a result of the interest and cooperation of the members of the house and officers of public and service organizations, the division has succeeded in moulding public interest in the salvage campaign to such an extent that the division is now in communication with 2,227 voluntary salvage corps. The main object of the campaign was to promote salvage through the organization of voluntary salvage corps operating in the various communities. The salvage division of my department is in constant communication with these organizations, seeking to advise them as to the types of material for which there is a demand, the methods of collection, and available markets. Where it is necessary, these salvage organizations are required to register under the War Charities Act.
There has been a great deal of activity and interest in the salvage campaign, and questions have been raised as to the success of it. May I say in a general way that in some localities the campaign, has been an outstanding success; in other localities the success has been only moderate, while in still others there has been very little success. There have been many difficulties in the way, difficulties arising out of the collection and disposition of the salvage, difficulties of freight and transportation. The division has been operating under a comparatively small staff, but it has been felt that its activities should now be increased, for it is now evident that the collection of salvage is increasingly necessary. Consumer and material controllers of the Department of Munitions and Supply and the material administrators under the war-time prices and trade board have indicated to my department the urgent necessity of procuring increasing quantities of various classes of material, and have requested us to intensify the campaign for its collection.
The division is now working in close cooperation with the controllers of the Department of Munitions and Supply, the material administrators of the war-time prices and trade board, the department of Trade and Commerce, the export licence control board and the foreign exchange control board. In order to regulate the distribution of steel, iron and other metals, bones and paper,

The War-War Services-Mr. Thorson
products of essential war industries, these materials are now placed under export control, and the salvage office is required to advise the controllers as to quantities of material made available by voluntary salvage organizations, and the quantities available in industry. For the purpose of stimulating interest in the salvage campaign, and in order to meet the views of those who are concerned with the salvage, collection and disposal of secondary raw materials, and to ensure that this shall be done as efficiently as possible, authority has recently been granted for the appointment of field organizers and inspectors. It will be the duty of these officers to promote the organization of new voluntary salvage corps where they do not exist, and to stimulate the activities of those that are at present operating; also to bring about the utmost cooperation between persons gathering salvage, those collecting it and bringing it to central stations, and those disposing of it, so that the activity may be as useful as possible.
I hope that many of the difficulties which we have found in the course of launching this campaign will be overcome. I do not know that the committee will be interested at this stage in the results, but I might observe that through two hundred salvage organizations the salvage collected and disposed of represented a total value of $254,982, or an average of $1,270 each. This money is used as a direct contribution to war charities of one kind and another.
During September of this year the department inaugurated a special drive for aluminum, which was sponsored by the Canadian Red Cross society, and although full reports are not yet available, information to hand would indicate that this drive will result in the Red Cross receiving approximately $75,000. The facts, however, with regard to this phase of the department will be available very shortly.
I shall say only a few words with regard to the Canadian travel bureau. The importance of the. Canadian travel bureau lies in the fact that through the coming of tourists from the United States to Canada we are able to obtain essential United States exchange, which we must use to such a great extent in the financing of our purchases in connection with our war effort in that country. Since the outbreak of war, the development of Canada's travel industry has assumed a much greater importance to the successful operation of our war-time economy. The building up of United States exchange within our country has enabled increased purchases to be made
of vital war supplies from the United States, and that has naturally been one of the major efforts of the government. The flow of tourist travel to Canada is now one of the chief factors in acquiring and conserving much-needed United States dollars.
In this connection it has been the policy of the bureau to seek to increase this flow by expanding and developing a promotional campaign for tourist traffic from the United States. The war has brought its difficulties. It has caused a change in the travel habits of people of the United States, just as it has done in the habits of the Canadian people. The foreign exchange control board, keenly desirous of holding our exchange position to the best possible advantage, found it absolutely essential to. prohibit Canadian pleasure travel in the United States. This regulation, essential as it was in the interests of the general economy of Canada, created some feeling in the United States, particularly in those parts that border on Canada. The regulation was misinterpreted and rumours were current, not perhaps so much this year as the year before, that United States citizens bringing money into Canada could not take any of it out. There were other activities of an adverse nature in the United States. In June of this year the necessary gasoline regulations were put into effect and these also caused considerable difficulty.
By and large, however, there has been a great improvement in the tourist industry in Canada this year. Despite the unusual problems that have confronted the travel industry of Canada, to which I have made reference, I think hon. members will be interested to learn that up to the end of September of this year our tourist traffic had increased and expanded in all parts of the dominion. Until June of this year the tourist figures were running behind those of a year ago; but in July this traffic showed a substantial increase. Up to the end of September 3,122,683 automobiles had crossed into Canada from the United States. In the month of July Canada had 2,585,041 tourist visitors; in August, 2,741,112 and in September, 1,304,467. In other words up to the end of September Canada had welcomed 11,492,811 tourist visitors, an increase of 286.825 tourists over the corresponding period in 1940. While these figures are encouraging I am free to state that I am not entirely satisfied with the Canadian travel bureau. A careful study is being made of the whole subject, and every effort will be made to bring about the improvements which I think are desirable.
Now, Mr. Chairman. I shall conclude an address which I find has become altogether
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too long, in spite of the fact that I have tried to compress it as much as possible while still endeavouring to give the house some outline of the activities of my department. I should like to say how deeply I have appreciated the loyal support I have received from my two distinguished deputy ministers, Major-General LaFleche and Hon. T. C. Davis, as well as from every member of the staff of my department. I should like also to express my appreciation of the kindness of hon. members on both sides of the house since the Prime Minister honoured me with this appointment, for which I thank him deeply. This support and this kindness have made my task very much easier than it would otherwise have been.


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Chairman, I dislike to begin
with an apology, but hon. members will understand that I have not had a great deal of opportunity to get together, at least in condensed form, the information which the committee might desire from me. Neither have I had an opportunity to consult my colleagues with regard to the matters which were discussed overseas. I am afraid the presentation I am about to make may be somewhat disjointed, but I shall endeavour to do my best to give information in which hon. gentlemen may be interested and, according to the arrangement made, to answer questions when the time comes to deal with the various subjects which will be brought up during the course of the statement.
May I say a word with regard to the army programme for 1941-42 which the Prime Minister and I announced early in the year. The highlights of that programme wTere the sending overseas during this year of a large number of corps troops and reinforcements; the sending overseas of an army tank brigade, which up to that time had not been even mobilized; the sending overseas of a third division, which had been mobilized and was in training, and the sending overseas of the armoured division, which at that time was mobilized but in a very preliminary stage of training. I am glad to say that, with the exception of the armoured division, that programme has been carried out. I obtained the figures just a short time ago, and I find that since March 11, when I last reported to the house, no less than 41,843 other ranks have gone overseas, together with 2,484 officers. So that at the present time we have overseas the first and second divisions; the third division, which went overseas in July; the army tank brigade, and thousands of corps troops and army troops, to which I want to refer with a little more particularity later on. We have in Canada the fifth armoured division,

which according to the programme is to go overseas before very long. We also have in Canada the fourth division, which was mobilized at the time I last spoke; and since that time authority has been given for the mobilization of the three brigade groups of a sixth division. In addition to that we have authorized, just lately, the mobilization of another five companies of the forestry corps, so that the Canadian forestry corps will consist of twenty-five companies when this additional authorization goes overseas. Then we have the coast defence artillery, on both the east and west coasts, together with a number of- battalions doing coast defence duty-that is to say, carrying out protective duties in cooperation with the artillery on both our coasts-and finally we have the troops in Newfoundland and the West Indies.
This sums up briefly the material side of the situation of the Canadian army at the present time. Apart from that there is the reserve army, which consists of something like 150,000 men just now.


Mr. MacNICOL:: In Canada?


James Layton Ralston: Yes, in Canada. That is the extent of the progress that has been made since I last reported to the house.
As part of the day's work, and not with any special errand in mind, I went overseas a few weeks ago together with the chief of the general staff, and Lieutenant-Colonel Currie, my executive assistant, and Lieutenant-Colonel Cameron, secretary to the chief of the general staff. If I were to outline the purposes of the visit I think I might say the first purpose was to see as much as I could of Canada's fighting forces in the old country; second, to consult with Lieutenant-General McNaughton and Major-General Montague regarding many matters of organization and administration, all of which took considerable time; third, to review with our officers and the war office the task of the army in the war and the part which the Canadian army could most usefully play; fourth, generally to be informed at first hand regarding conditions and developments, because as hon. members will understand, in making plans for the future with regard to Canada's contribution on sea, on land, in the air, and in the fields of munitions production and finance, it always helps to get as close to the situation as possible; fifth, and not least important, to repeat that rare experience, as I told the press in England, of meeting and talking with the citizens of the British Isles, those indomitable people who give to those of us from the western hemisphere who go there both an inspiration and a challenge by their courage and steadfastness.

The War-National Defence-Mr. Ralston
I am not to-day going to go into the lengthy discussions which we held over there. It was a great satisfaction to see the Canadian troops. I spent four days with them. The first day was with the holding units, the second day with the third division, the third day with the second division and the fourth day with the first division. I am sorry to say, however, that I was not able to see a great many of the personnel of the first division. That was a gala day for the first division, in that Her Majesty the Queen graciously presented, to the Saskatoon Light Infantry the colours of that battalion. A great day it was, indeed!
I am speaking at present to my hon. friends the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson), the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling), and other colleagues who went with them, as well as some others who have been over there, and I know they will agree with me that all that has been said about Canadian troops is not too much. I speak with regard to their keenness, their alertness and their readiness to do whatever job may come their way, and as to their intentness not only in their training but also in those operational tasks they are carrying on. I saw them in a variety "of activities, not only in training but in actual operational activities as well.' My hon. friends know they are holding an important part of the line. At the time I visited one of the divisions, it had just taken over.
I saw ceremonial parades as well. I can say to the committee and to the people of the Dominion of Canada that the morale of the Canadian troops is good-and I say that without any reservation. I said that they are alert and that they are keen.-and they are. They have good, Canadian common sense. They know that we cannot defend the citadel-and we have been calling England the citadel of freedom.-without troops, and that, at the moment, their job is just where they are.
They were greatly bucked up, shall I say, by their participation in what has been called ''bumper" exercise. Those were tremendous exercises in which troops of the United Kingdom, imperial troops, as well as Canadian troops, took part.. It was an exercise which covered something like eight days in time. I am not sure whether or not it was in progress when my hon. friends were overseas. It was, however, a test of both the endurance of the men, the endurance of the vehicles and of equipment generally. There were many amusing stories-stories about generals who had been captured, and stories about platoons which had been cut off.
The chief lessons which were learned, and the outstanding points in connection with the
exercises were perhaps three in number. The first was the usefulness of the communications with which the army is equipped. When one understands that communication has to be maintained between vehicles in columns miles and miles long on the tortuous roads in England, when orders are constantly being changed, and those changed orders have to be communicated to the driver of each vehicle, he realizes that it is a test of both the army communications themselves, and the men who operate them.
It was a tremendous satisfaction to the officers with whom I talked to feel that those communications had stood the test, and that the men had stood the test under what were at that time abnormal circumstances. I believe the men, as a matter of fact, bivouacked for the whole eight nights. They travelled about four hundred miles altogether. Changed orders came from time to time. The column which had started for a particular point early in the morning might receive at ten o'clock in the morning verbal orders- they had no written orders-calling on them to go to some other point. That information had to be communicated all the way down the column, which stretched for miles and miles. Then, probably in another hour a dispatch rider would rush up and deliver another verbal order indicating a change in destination to some other point. Those were two of the factors, namely communications, and the ability to find their way about. The Canadian battalion and Canadian units reached the places to which they were directed.
The third factor was the test with regard to the maintenance of vehicles. I was going to say something about this later, but I might as -well mention it now. I do not know of any more important task in the modern army than the maintenance of vehicles. That wras illustrated beyond doubt in those exercises. The men learned perhaps more than in any other way how important it was for the driver mechanic, night after night, to go through the routine with his vehicle, to go over the number of operations laid down in the book for him, in order that he might be sure his vehicle would start in operations next day. The vehicles stood the test remarkably well. I am not so sure that the tanks did as well as the transport vehicles. Nevertheless, all that experience was to the good. From the imperial officers in command I heard the most glowing references to the part which the Canadians played in the exercises.
I found this, that the men of the Canadian corps-and I am not speaking of the "bumper" exercise, and not simply of the officers-those in the line, which is only about forty miles
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away from the enemy, were each of them fully aware of what their job was, and how they were to do it. Seeing the dispositions, it appeared absolutely clear on the ground, that they were prepared for whatever might come and that each individual man would see to it that the fort was held.
Barbed wires and guns are not the whole thing in connection with the defence of the island. They do not by any means tell the whole story. Those men with strong bodies, clear heads and hearts of oak realize their responsibilities, and I have not any doubt that Hitler would get a warm reception, should he attempt the invasion which has been threatened for so long.
May I say also that although I did not see the actual unit, I did see the officers in charge of the tunnelers, who have made such a record for themselves at Gibraltar, and who are operating in England as well, particularly in connection with aerodromes and tank traps. They also operate in connection with certain public services, where they are doing an extremely fine and important job to provide power for one of the most important manufacturing projects operating in the United Kingdom.
That is just a general appraisal of the Canadian corps and Canadian troops, as I saw it. Something has been said-I do not think there has been very much lately-with regard to the task of the Canadian corps. As I said a moment ago, they have common sense. They realize what the situation is. They realize, too, that if Hitler had invaded England in September, 1940, as was expected, they would have been in the thick of it. They realize, too, that if, instead of going into Russia after the invasion of Crete, Hitler had come to England, they again would have been in the middle of it. They realize, too, that at the present time their job is to buttress the defences of the British isles, and at the same time to train, to work, to prepare and to be ready for any job of any kind, anywhere, any time, for which they may be needed. They know that their task is to see to it that the enemy's plans are frustrated, and that Hitler is driven back.
I do not think any finer tribute could be paid than that which was paid by Mr. Churchill at the dinner tendered to the Prime Minister of Canada (Mr. Mackenzie King) by the Lord Mayor of London. On that occasion Mr. Churchill said:
You have seen your gallant Canadian corps and other troops who are here. We have felt very much for them that they have not yet had a chance of coming to close quarters with the enemy. It is not their fault; it is not our fault; but there they stand, and there they

have stood through the whole of the critical period of the last fifteen months at the very point where they would be the first to be hurled into a counter-stroke against an invader.
No greater service can be rendered to this country, no more important military duty can be performed by any troops in all the allies. It seems to me that although they may have felt envious that Australian, New Zealand and South African troops have been in action, the part they have played in bringing about the final result is second to none.
The war effort of Canada during this war, happily, has not so far required effusion of blood upon a large scale. But that effort, in men, in ships, aircraft, air training, in finance, in food, constitutes an element in the resistance of the British empire without which that resistance could not be successfully maintained.
Perhaps I should have mentioned that the boys were bucked up particularly by the Spitsbergen operation. As you know that was an operation of about a week and it took place after intensive training at a special coastal training area where the men were instructed in invasion tactics and beach assault as a prelude to the expedition. The purpose of that expedition is given in a dispatch which was sent us. It was to destroy existing stocks of coal, to paralyze mining facilities, to destroy radio and meteorological stations, and to evacuate Russian and Norwegian miners. These tasks were all accomplished with a minimum of dislocation and in record time. Naturally the troops were envied by their comrades when they came back from this expedition to within 750 miles of the north pole. That is with regard to my visit to the troops.
I had a number of discussions with Captain Margesson, the Secretary of State for War, with Sir John Dill, the chief of the general staff, with General Brooke, commander in chief of the home forces, and I should have said with the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Mr. Churchill, with Lord Cranborne, with Lord Beaverbrook and with others who had the particular information which we desired to get. One of the things I wanted to ascertain was in regard to a matter mentioned yesterday by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson)-the views over there as to the role of the army in this war. There has been an idea that the army will play some sort of minor role, that this really is a navy and air force war. Let me say to you that from the views which were given to me it was made quite clear that the role of the army in this war is and will be no minor one. The navy and the air force have been and are bearing the shock and stress of battle, and words cannot adequately express the measure and the quality of their contribution. But there is no illusion that this war can be finished without an army to meet and, with the cooperation of ships and planes, eventually beat Hitler's land forces. The navy

The War-National Defence-Mr. Ralston
and the air force must keep the sea lanes open for men and supplies. They must slow up and retard invasion. The army must repel it. The navy and the air force must deal with the enemy by blockade and bombing. The army, supported by the other services, must eventually strike the decisive blow.
As in Jugoslavia, in Greece and in Crete, so to-day in Russia, it is Hitler's land forces whose clutches are reaching for Russia's throat. Hitler's drives have been to enslave people and to win territory, and the army, the land forces, have been his major instrument. France and Greece and Crete and Russia have all been overrun, and it is the army which must be called upon both for resistance and for effective counter-offensive when the time comes.
So that for a minute or two I want to speak of the activities of the army and with regard to recruiting for the army, to which the leader of the opposition referred yesterday. The army has a major role to perform, but in building up a Canadian army alongside the requirements of the navy and the heavy calls for the gigantic air training plan there was bound to be some difficulty. Owing to the pressing needs of the navy and air force the only restriction upon taking in man-power for these services has been the provision of physical equipment. Otherwise the sky has been the limit. We in Canada have put first things first, and no one questions the policy of giving the right of way to the requirements of the navy and air force. Those two services must build up quickly. The immediate necessities of both these services have made it impracticable for them to make any concessions to industry. That is to say, men have been taken on no matter what their trade and technical qualifications in civil life might be. This meant that the army and civilian needs divided up the remainder of the eligible men. The army has already made clear the policy which still prevails, that of giving leave to men who enlist if a board decides that they are for the time being essential to war industry.
Army enlistments called for in the recruiting campaign of last summer were forthcoming, and I think, and I said so at the time, that it represented a thumping answer by the young men of Canada to Hitler. The full returns showed over 34,000 enlisted and about 48,000 actually volunteered. This was in addition to the 15,500 who enlisted in the navy and air force. So that in all over 60,000 young men volunteered during that period to serve in the fighting forces of Canada. The house will recall that the campaign for the army was a special call, and, as I pointed out,
it was only a chapter in the story. The steady month to month requirements had to be met right through to the end of the book.
Civilian committees helped tremendously, but not unnaturally when the objective was reached there was bound to be some let down in activity. The assumption was that if we could enlist men at the rate of 12,000 or more per month in the campaign, there ought to be no difficulty in enlisting 7,000 or 8,000 under the influence of the momentum which had been generated. But there was a definite falling off. As the figures show, in the last four months, since the campaign, we have asked for 37,000 odd, and something over
24,000	have actually enlisted.
I do not want to make any excuses, but there were at least three major factors which had an effect upon that effort. First, there was a further and unexpected expansion in the air training plan. This arose out of discussions in England by my colleague, the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power). When he came home he found it necessary to indicate very definitely that there was a need for a further unlimited number of men in the air force. This need has been repeatedly emphasized, and an intensive and nation-wide effort has been made to recruit airmen. The result has been that since that call from the minister there have been no less than 35,000 enlistments in the air force.
Another factor was the rapid expansion in industry. I could not help thinking as I listened last evening to my colleague, the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe), tell of the peaks which were being reached in industrial production what an effect that must have had upon any campaign calling for men. The rapid expansion which my colleague so graphically described was bound to absorb a large number of men. I must say that there has been a gratifying recognition by many industrial executives of the needs of the army. In many instances readjustments have been made to release men for the services, and industrial executives have been slow in taking on men who are eligible for military service. But the pull of increasing war production has been a heavy one nevertheless.
A third factor which was bound to have its effect was the difficulty of convincing our young men, and in many cases their families as well, that more men were needed for the army. People could not understand why we had to keep on getting men. The assumption was that the reinforcements needed must be small because the casualties were confined to normal wastage and accidents causing medical unfitness. As I have already tried to explain,
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that assumption is wholly unsound. There is a constant drain even in these quiet times, resulting from discharges for medical unfitness of men who cannot stand the strain of fast-moving, energy-consuming activity in training and operations. Unfortunately that drain will increase heavily when active operations begin.
Another drain upon enlisted man-power is the steady call for men to increase establishments and to form new units. I heard a good deal of that when I was overseas this time. We have experienced it already. The organization for modern war is constantly changing. The war office, from experience gained in fighting on the part of British and allied forces, have found that units need more personnel to do a certain job. They have changed the organization accordingly, and the Canadian army has changed with them. They have found too that new units are necessary to perform special tasks which have been done previously by the more or less standard formations. They have found that units formed to do a certain task could more usefully and effectively be used in other roles. In order to be more self-dependent the Canadian corps has found it necessary to ask for special units not contemplated even by the British establishments. Not a few of them were formed on the spot as the need arose, from reinforcements from the holding units in England. These wall eventually have to be replaced. This has required men in thousands and equipment as well. And so to meet our need of men for the army, men are required, first, to replace those discharged from time to time as unfit; second, to provide for new units or an increase in the establishment of existing units; and third, as reserves for battle casualties. These requirements go on ceaselessly month by month. I should like to impress that upon hon. members. I know that within this house and in the country there is some sort of idea that you do not need men because the army so far has done no fighting. But this increase in establishments is going on continually, also the formation of new units, and there is a continual drain by reason of medical unfitness. The reserves have to be kept up.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the monthly wastage in the Canadian active service force?


James Layton Ralston: I can only tell my hon.
friend this. There has to be an arbitrary figure, as he will understand, for monthly wastage. To make a rough estimate just to give my hon. friend some idea, I would say that the wastage might be between 2,500 and
3,000	a month.
'Mr. Ralston.]


Grote Stirling: The minister just now arrived at a figure of 24,000 recruits who had .recently come in. Was that before medical fitness had been attested, or after?


James Layton Ralston: I spoke of 34,000. I said
48.000	had volunteered


Grote Stirling: I understood the minister to say that 38,000 had been asked for and
24.000	had enlisted.


James Layton Ralston: I beg the hon. member's pardon. The number asked for was 37,000, and 24,000 have been enlisted. We have to remember that every unit sent overseas or formed over there necessitates provision for the maintenance of a supply of reinforcements. It is not enough to give a unit its complement of men any more than its complement of Bren guns or 25-pounders up to the number called for by the war establishments. Spares and spare parts must be provided for against wear and tear, accidents, and enemy action, and that applies to men as well as to machines. That is why I have said we need from 7,000 to 8,000 men per month to take care . of wastage, to provide for new and increased units and to build up reinforcements; and the need for men is bound to continue, although at a diminishing rate, as the British organization becomes more standardized.
So far I have dealt with the matter of recruiting and the fact that our recruiting has fallen short of the full quotas asked for, and I have indicated some reasons why that may be so. Here is the situation as I see it. The government of Canada, pledged to a full-out war effort, has authorized the mobilization of the first division, the second, third, fourth, and fifth armoured division, and the brigade groups of the sixth division. In addition, thousands of corps and army troops have been authorized and raised. The first duty we have is to keep up and maintain these formations. I want to impress this on the committee as I did over the radio a short time ago that this is not the job simply of the Department of National Defence. It is a pledge given by the government of Canada in the name of the people of Canada, and it is the people of Canada themselves who have the obligation to see to it -that the men in these units are backed up to the limit and that the Canadian Army 'which has been authorized is kept strong and reinforced. That need has been put before the citizens of this dominion more than once, but we have to repeat and repeat and repeat that the need is there. If we believe what the Prime Minister of Great Britain, the Prime Minister of this country and the leader of the opposition have said with regard to the

. The War-National Defence-Mr. Ralston
seriousness of this war and what we ourselves know in our hearts to be true, namely, that this is a desperate fight for Canada as well as for the rest of the world, then it seems to me that we can with the fullest confidence rely on Canadians to support their army.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister has referred to six or more divisions. I would ask him now if that is the final objective.


James Layton Ralston: I will deal with that in
a moment when I am dealing with the question raised by the leader of the opposition. I want to say again, with all the emphasis and with all the sincerity I can, that this is not a matter to be left simply to the Department of National Defence and civilian recruiting committees. It is up to the members of this house and the people they represent to put their hearts and wills and energies to this task of inducing and convincing the young men of this dominion that their place is in the Canadian Army. We in the Department of National Defence will do our level best to help to organize the recruiting which is necessary. The problems are not the same in every part of Canada. In some districts we must deal with a population which is largely agricultural. In others our young men, from the nature of their environment, are more interested in the naval service, for instance. In highly industrialized areas we have the special problem of the cooperation which is necessary with industry so that we shall not denude our factories of the skilled labour necessary to the continued production of armaments. Consequently recruiting efforts are decentralized to the various military districts throughout the country, and where possible the district officer commanding is assisted by civilian committees.
A couple of months ago we appointed two civilian directors of recruiting, Colonel James Mess, of Toronto, and Leon Trepanier, of Montreal. They have made a study of the whole situation and at this moment are actively engaged in interesting and enlisting ' the services of civilians all over this country. I think we have taken a step forward in the development of that organization, and that as a result we shall have a closer relationship between the civilian and the army. The efforts of the committees have already given ample evidence of the growing desire on the part of the people of Canada to get behind the army's effort in its need for men. These men and the committees through which they work will stimulate the public in the service of the army and bring to all our citizens a keener appreciation of the fact that the army is the individual citizen's army, and not an outside organization of which they know nothing and care less.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: May I ask if
the broadcasts being made by Colonel Mess are nation-wide?


James Layton Ralston: I am sorry I cannot tell
my hon. friend. As a matter of fact I did not know that he was making broadcasts.


Joseph Henry Harris: Perhaps at some later time the minister will tell us.


James Layton Ralston: We expect to be able
through this organization better to meet the demands of the public for information, to provide an organization for the distribution of information regarding the army's activities and requirements, to secure the support of civilians for our army's effort, and to indicate to the people that a public movement is behind the army in its need for men. I have already expressed to hon. members my appreciation of the help they have given in connection with the recruiting campaign which started in May last. I want to ask each individual hon. member for continued support, by assisting personally in every possible way the actions of the local committees.
My hon. friend the member for Davenport asked about the objective. That was also the question which my hon. friend the leader of the opposition asked yesterday; he inquired as to the ultimate objective of man-power which it is hoped Canada will contribute. I can answer him in one sentence and in one phrase. It was used by the Prime Minister; in fact it has been employed repeatedly by him. He used it in his speech at the Lord Mayor's banquet. Canada is determined to contribute "to the utmost of her strength". You cannot count that in divisions alone. I might refer the hon. gentleman to a somewhat similar phrase which I used in March, when, speaking to the house, I said I told my friends overseas that Canada's contribution was an all-out contribution; and by "an all-out contribution" I am not talking about divisions alone; I am not talking merely of squadrons, of ships, of production, of finance; I am talking about a balanced programme which represents the very best and most that Canada can do. That is the ultimate objective.
In this connection may I say to my hon. friend and to all members of the committee that I do not think we quite realize, when we are speaking of divisions, just what we have. Here I am not speaking complacently or saying that this is the last word by any means. I would only indicate to my hon. friends that sometimes there is not an appreciation of the degree to which we have gone. I am speaking now particularly of the army. We think of the Canadian corps as consisting of three divisions and an armoured tank brigade, to be joined before long by the fifth armoured
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The War-National Defence-Mr. Ralston	.
division-that, along with the artillery regiments, the signals, the engineers, ordnance, and army service corps units. But as a matter of fact we have supplied many units which would be needed to work with the corps when that corps becomes part of an army. To-day we have overseas three divisions and an army tank brigade, and a fifth division soon to go overseas, with their ancillary units, and corps troops, and army troops, the fourth division here, and mobilization going on of the three brigade groups of the sixth division. Our forces in the United Kingdom alone consist not merely of three divisions but of over 300 units of various types; and these corps and army troops are formed to serve the corps as a whole or to be apportioned and attached to serve a Canadian division or divisions in case it or they should be detached for the time being to another corps. I am satisfied that there is not in the United Kingdom a corps as complete in that respect as the Canadian corps. At the present time the Canadian corps has developed almost from a corps to an army by reason of the line of communication troops and the corps and army troops which have been added to it. Yet we still think of a corps as consisting of three divisions, the army tank brigade, and, soon, the armoured division. May I tell the committee that to-day there are fifty per cent more corps and army troops in the Canadian corps of to-day, although no battles have been fought, than there were in the Canadian corps of 1915 to 1918.


Mr. CASSELMAN:: How many Canadian soldiers are overseas at the present time?


James Layton Ralston: Over 110,000. That is exclusive of the air force. I am giving my hon. friend a round figure; the number is more than that; and when I say "overseas" I am referring to those who are outside Canada. The leader of the opposition asked for a separate statement with regard to those outside Canada but not in England. I feel that it is not desirable to make that figure public, but I now intimate that I shall be glad to give it to him in confidence.
As I say, we have the Canadian corps, consisting of those 300 units. In the air force alone are 90,000 men, the equivalent of more than four divisions.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They are all overseas, are they?


James Layton Ralston: No. Then there is the fourth division in Canada, the brigade groups of the sixth division, and the coast defence units.
In the navy we shall have before long the equivalent of two divisions.

I want to point out to the committee, so that we may not get a distorted idea regarding this matter of enlistments, that since the middle of May, 1941-that is, during the last six months-the army has recruited 59,502 men; the air force has recruited 35,108 men, and the navy has recruited 11,163 men, or, in the last six months, a total of voluntary enlistments of 105,773.


Joseph Henry Harris: Has the minister the number of those who have been rejected?


James Layton Ralston: No. The only way, I assume, one can get it is by taking the percentage of rejections and adding them to this figure.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are the 105,000 enlistments in the active army?


James Layton Ralston: No; there were not
105,000	enlistments in the active army during that six months period. That is the number of enlistments in the army, navy and air force. There were 59,500 in the active army; the numbers I gave for the army have reference to the active army.
That is Canada's war activity from the point of view of man-power. Hon. members have already heard from the Minister of Munitions and Supply of Canada's war activity from the point of view of production. I am sure it impressed the committee, as it will impress the country. The committee will hear from my colleague, the Minister of Finance, of Canada's participation in the war from the point of view of finance. It seems to me that Canada's war activities are nothing to apologize for and nothing to deprecate; in men, munitions and money they constitute a tremendous effort; but I want to assure the committee that we shall keep right on.
A preliminary study of the man-power situation in Canada has just been made. The chief of the general staff and I have returned from England after consultations with the general officer commanding the corps, and our friends in the United Kingdom. I have had no opportunity as yet to report to my colleagues. The war committee of the cabinet will be examining the situation thoroughly in the light of Canada's potentialities, and in the light of the needs, to determine the most effective ways in which the army can act and in which the army programme for 1942 can be developed as part of our war effort; and that, of course, will take account of the other calls on our resources of man-power and of materials. Therefore I say to my hon. friend that that is our objective-an all-out effort to the utmost of our strength based on a study of the situation and in the light of other calls which are necessary upon our resources.

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In the meantime I want to stress again that the important task which cannot be shelved or ignored is that of seeing to it that the formations which we at present have are kept up to strength and in fighting form.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: May I ask the minister a question while he is talking of enlistments? Is everyone who. offers his services, provided he is medically fit, taken into the service, even though he may be a key executive man in some industry; or is that situation taken into account?


James Layton Ralston: Opportunity is given then for him or his employer to make representations that, although he wishes to enlist and does enlist, he is needed in connection with a key war industry. Then a board, under the Department of National War Services, on which neither the army nor the employer is represented, an independent board, hears the case and decides whether or not that man is essential to that industry. If he is, it recommends that leave be given him to go back to the industry for as long a time as may be necessary, and that leave can be renewed if occasion requires.
I am glad my hon. friend brought that out, though I have tried to make it clear on many occasions. I spoke of an increase in war production, of the additional demand on manpower in war industry. I have said publicly to employers all over the country, that I feel they have a responsibility in connection with this matter and that they themselves, if they are doing the utmost they can to further the war effort, must make plans to have men replaced from time to time, first, by men who are not physically fit, and second, by women, if necessary. The time is coming and perhaps has come when employers ought definitely to have, as part of their plans of expansion of production, regard to the importance of man-power for the army. I have said also that this is being done already in a number of plants in the country. Many employers are endeavouring, first, so to arrange that a physically fit man's place may be taken by someone not eligible for the army, making the necessary adjustment accordingly; and endeavouring, second, as far as possible to see to it that those men whom they take on are those who would not be eligible for the army. I pay this tribute to many employers, that they are already taking this question into account.
The leader of the opposition let drop a remark to which I wish to refer for a moment. He said something about the Canadian troops over in England being trained for defensive warfare. I suggest to him that he is misinformed in that regard. He is confusing two things: strategy and tactics. The strategy
may be the defence of Britain, but the tactics of the defence may be attack. Canadian troops are being trained and it is expected that they may have to be used for the time being in the defence of Britain, but that does not mean that they are being trained for defensive warfare in the sense of sitting down and holding a trench. What may be called purely defensive warfare this morning may turn into offensive tactics this afternoon; counterattacks are as much offensive as a prolonged attack on the continent or somewhere else might be. If you reduce it to fractions and put it on a mathematical basis, I should say that two-thirds of the training of any soldier is training for offensive rather than defensive warfare. That is the sort of training which is being given Canadians both here and in England.
We think of defensive warfare as more or less the use of the man with the rifle and perhaps the Bren gun; we think of offensive warfare these days as being carried on by the man with the tank and with the carrier. The Canadian troops are equipped with the carrier. I do not know whether my hon. friend had the experience I had, but I saw three different reconnaissance battalions-I am not going to say how many carriers they had. The enemy probably knows, but there is no need to spread it on the record. Suffice it to say that they have very many more than the infantry unit has, and if anything could be more "offensive" than those fellows I should like to see it.
With regard to tanks we have, or we shall have when the armoured division goes over, four divisions altogether:	three infantry
divisions plus one armoured division, plus one armoured tank brigade, which is roughly a third of a division. In other words, we shall have one and one-third armoured divisions, which are essential for offensive warfare, and three infantry divisions. If my hon. friend will look up the records with regard to the German army he will find that Hitler has not more than one panzer division as against ten ordinary infantry divisions. I do not want my hon. friend or the country to get the idea that the Canadian troops are being trained for defensive warfare in the sense that they are sitting down in a trench and waiting for the enemy to come. They are trained for attack. They are equipped for attack. The bumper exercise was an exercise in offensive tactics. My hon. friend used the expression "training for defensive" on two occasions, once when he said that some divisions were pretty well trained in defensive tactics and others not so well trained.
With regard to equipment, the Minister of Munitions and Supply has gone fully into the matter of equipment and I thought that perhaps I would leave that unless someone
4120	COMMONS
The War-National Defence-Mr. Ralston
wanted to ask questions with regard to any particular items. There is one thing I should say, and that is that all the equipment that is being made is not being used by the Canadian Anny. There was some misunderstanding between my colleague and the leader of the opposition with reference to 25-pounder guns. These are not being retained on this side, except to a limited extent for training purposes. They are on the other side, and at the present time we have two divisions, and we shall soon have three, equipped with these guns.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Have any Canadian tanks reached our men yet?


James Layton Ralston: I think there may be one or two.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We heard that they were on the ocean.


James Layton Ralston: There may be a small number.


Grote Stirling: My hon. friend says that the Minister of Munitions and Supply has dealt with the matter of equipment. Could he tell the committee whether there are any units in training in Canada to-day who are lacking essential equipment for that training?


James Layton Ralston: I am afraid that is a question I shall have to look into, because I have not the details. I shall, however, give an answer to-morrow.


Grote Stirling: I shall be glad if the minister will, and I would ask him particularly to turn his attention to the armoured division which is still in Canada and is still going through the processes of training. Have they the equipment necessary for the training of such troops in this country?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend knows
about the armoured division. They have about ten or fifteen of the large old-type tanks and also the American tanks, as we call them.


Grote Stirling: Tanks are not the only form of equipment which an armoured division requires.


James Layton Ralston: That was only one item. My hon. friend asked whether they had all the equipment. The tanks they have, old-type as they are, are extremely valuable for training.	.
The committee rose and obtained leave to sit again at the next sitting of the house.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

William Lyon Mackenzie King: Hon. members have been under the impression that the house would not sit to-night, but would follow standing order 6, which provides that at six

o'clock on Wednesday Mr. Speaker adjourns the house without question put, the house then standing adjourned until Thursday. On May 27, however, that order was suspended by a resolution of the house, that thereafter for the rest of the session the house would sit on Wednesday evenings. In order not to disappoint hon. members in the view they have entertained, I move that the house do now adjourn, which will give hon. members the evening free. The resolution, I think, should be allowed to stand because we may find it convenient to use it next Wednesday evening.
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 6 p.m.
Thursday, November 6, 1941



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 104, to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940.
He said: This is really a reintroduction of a bill I introduced in the early part of the summer, but which was not reached. I withdrew it, believing there was no chance of having it forwarded. I am reintroducing it at this time in the hope that at an early day it may be considered by the house.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. CHURCH:: What action, if any, has been taken by the government regarding a high cost of living bonus for dependents of those serving in His Majesty's forces ?


Mr. ILSLEY:: This matter is under consideration by the government.


EXPORTS OP SCRAP STEEL
Mr. REID:: 1.	Is scrap steel allowed to be exported from Canada?
2.	If so, what total amount has been exported from the various provinces to the United States or any other country during the twelve months ending September 30, 1941?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Yes, under permit only.
2.	Exports of scrap iron and steel.

Questions,
Province	Tons
Quebec	 1
Ontario	 3,943
British Columbia	 10,430
Total	 14,374
I might add that yesterday the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) called my attention to the fact that while he had asked for information concerning the amount of steel scrap which had been exported from British Columbia since June 1, 1941, to the end of September of the same year, the answer tabled included scrap iron and steel. In reply I advised him that I should be glad to obtain any additional information. I am informed by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics that scrap iron and steel are included in the one classification. This is to conform with the custom tariff, and I am told it is not possible to obtain a break-down of these figures.


Thomas Reid: It should be brought up to date.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Answered.


SHIPMENTS OF PORK PRODUCTS TO BRITAIN UNDER AGREEMENTS
Mr. SENN:: How many pounds of each of the following pork products were shipped to Great Britain during the term of the 1940-41 bacon agreement: 1. Wiltshire sides; 2. box cuts (a) hams
and gammons, (b) fores, (c) rib in back, (d) middle, (e) tinned hams; 3. offal or pluck, (a) livers, (b) kidneys, (c) tongues?


Mr. GARDINER:: Bacon Contract Volume 1940-41
Following is a statement showing the volume in pounds of the pork products shipped to Great Britain during the term of the 1940-41
bacon agreement:-*
Volume
Product	in Pounds
1. Wiltshire sides	 330,532,422
2.	(a)	Hams and	gammons.. ..	30,354,051(b)	Fores	
17,230,246Picnics	
570,453(c)	Backs	
30,996,365(d)	Middles	
16,290,645(e)	Tinned hams	
42,120*3. (a)	Livers	
8,141,896(b)	Kidneys	
1,505,587 * *___(c)	Tongues	
1,871,572
*Now in transit 1,200,000 lb. livers, kidneys and tongues.


Mark Cecil Senn: What was the price agreed upon or realized under (a) the 1940-41 bacon agreement; (b) the present bacon agreement, for each of the following pork products:	1. Wiltshire sides;
2.	box cuts, (a) hams and gammons, (b) fores, (c) rib in back, (d) middle, (e) tinned hams;
3.	offal or pluck, (a) livers, (b) kidneys, (e) tongues ?


James Garfield Gardiner: Bacon Contract Prices
Original Contracts	Revised Contracts	ContractPork Products	1940-41	1940-41	1941-42Per 112 pounds	Per 112 pounds	Per 100 pounds1. Wiltshire sides, A grade	... $17 72	$18 83	$19 77" B grade	
2. (a)	[DOT].. 16 87	17 92	19 18Hams and gammons 10/18....	... 18 55	19 71	20 7018/22.. . (b)	... 17 70	18 80	19 75Fores 10/20 	... 14 45	15 35	16 1320/22 	
(0	15 38Backs 	
(d)	... 20 65	21 94	22 75Middles 22/36 	... 19 15	20 35	21 36Middles N.A.A.F.I	
(e)	... 20 30	21 57	21 75Tinned Hams	
3. (a)	... 25 20	26 36	26 62Livers	
(b)	no revision	10-25c per lbKidneys	
(c)	... 12-14 " "	(C u	12-14 " "Tongues 	
14873-260	... 11-07 " "	u it	11-07 " "
Questions as Orders for Returns
BRIGADIER-GENERAL J. A. CLARK*
Mr. REID
1.	Since September, 1939, have the services
of Brig.-Gen. J. A. Clark of Vancouver been considered by the government in any military capacity?	.
2.	If so, has he been asked to consider any military appointment comparable to his military status and experience, and what .military appointment was suggested or offered him?


James Layton Ralston: I should be glad to give my hon. friend the information asked for; but on consideration my view is that to disclose information with regard to offers of military appointments would be a precedent not in the public interest.


Mr. POULIOT:: It is a military secret.


Thomas Reid: There has been considerable agitation in British Columbia owing to statements that this man's services have been ignored. The information is very important.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	Under Wartime Housing Limited, at what locations have housing developments been constructed ?
2.	How many houses have been built at each location?
3.	What are the descriptions of these houses, showing number of rooms, construction, material, etc.
4.	What conveniences are at each location, such as water and sewers?
5.	What was the estimated cost of each unit at each location?
6.	What was the contract price at each location?
7.	Was it a lump sum, cost plus percentage or fee?
8.	What was the actual cost of each unit at each location?
9.	How many of these units are occupied at the present time at each location?
10.	How many units were built under the national housing administration and at what locations, showing, size, description, number of rooms, estimated cost, contract price, actual cost and other information as above?


ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED SINCE SEPTEMBER 1,
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	How many orders in council have been passed since September 1, 1939?
2.	How many of such orders in council have been published in the Canada Gazette?
3.	How many orders in council passed pursuant to the War Measures Act and/or the National Resources Mobilization Act have been approved since September 1, 1939?
4.	How many of such orders in council have been published in the Canada Gazette?
5.	How many orders in council have been passed since September 1, 1939, while parliament was actually in session?

6.	How many orders in council passed pursuant to the War Measures Act and/or the National Resources Mobilization Act have been approved since September 1, 1939, while parliament was actually in session?



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day Mr. JEAN-FRANQOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata): Mr. Speaker, is it the intention of the government to adjourn the house at eleven o'clock to-night until Monday next in order to afford our Conservative colleagues an opportunity to settle their internal affairs once and for all by the selection of our favourite candidate for the leadership of their party?
William Lyon Mackenzie King: The affairs of our Conservative friends are in their own hands. Happily they are not in mine. So far as the proceedings of parliament are concerned I imagine that all hon. members, irrespective of party, will wish to have this part of the session end as speedily as may be possible and to that end hon. members will no doubt desire to sit to-morrow afternoon but not in the evening.



ALASKA HIGHWAY

[Stage Direction]
INFORMATION AS TO REPORT OF COMMISSION On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: The hon. member for
Macleod (Mr. Hansell) inquired yesterday with respect to the report of the Alaska highway commission. I have made inquiry as to the present position of the report and I find that it is in its final stages. I am unable to say whether it will be completed in time to bring down at the present session, but if it is, it will be brought down.



LEGATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: A few days ago my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson), said that during the course of the present session he would like me to make a statement with respect to diplomatic appointments and other appointments of a representative character that had been made since we adjourned in June last. There is one im-

Diplomatic Appointments
portant appointment which I should like to announce this afternoon. With the permission of the house I shall avail myself of this opportunity to give the entire list so that hon. members will have it before them.
Mr. Jean Desy, formerly Canadian minister to Belgium and the Netherlands, was appointed in June, 1941, to represent Canada in Brazil Mr. Desy arrived at Rio de Janeiro on September 10 and presented his credentials on September 30. This appointment reciprocates the appointment of the minister of Brazil to Canada, Mr. J. A. Lins de Barros, who presented his credentials to the Governor General on May 15, 1941.
There has also been an appointment to the Argentine republic and to Chile. Honourable W. F. A. Turgeon, formerly Chief Justice of Saskatchewan, was appointed minister to the Argentine and Chile on September 24. He has now arrived in Buenos Aires and is expected to present his credentials shortly. The minister of the Argentine to Canada, Doctor Pablo Santos Munoz, presented his letters of credence to the Governor General on June 3 of this year.
I am pleased to be able to announce that the Chinese government has nominated and the approval of His Majesty has been signified to the appointment of Doctor Liu Shih Shun as minister from China to Canada. Doctor Liu has had a lengthy experience in the foreign service of his country and since 1931 has headed the European and American divisions of the foreign ministry in China. It is not known how soon he will reach Canada. In due course, as was announced some little time ago, the Canadian government will appoint a minister to China.
Mr. John Doherty Kearney, K.C., of Montreal was appointed on July 31 of this year High Commissioner for Canada in Ireland, in succession to the late John Hall Kelly. Mr. Kearney has been in Dublin for some time.
We have felt that it was important to have a representative of Canada in Newfoundland. As hon. members realize, Newfoundland is now occupying a most prominent place in international affairs, from the point of view of military strategy, and also as respects relations between the British government, the Canadian government and the United States government with Newfoundland and with each other as respects developments taking place there. We felt that if we could persuade Mr. Burchell, who has been our high commissioner in Australia, to accept the position of commissioner to Newfoundland, we would have, with his knowledge of conditions in the maritime provinces and in Newfoundland, an exceptionaly well-qualified representative for the post. Mr. Burchell, [DOT]
realizing the importance the government attached to its representation in Newfoundland, accepted the position and at the present time is serving there as High Commissioner for Canada.
Mr. Burchell's appointment to Newfoundland left a vacancy in the position of High Commissioner for Canada in Australia. With the situation what it is in the orient, and having regard to the many and highly important matters related to the Pacific which require most careful consideration at this time, we have felt that it was important that the best possible appointment should be made. The government believed that no person possessing a wide knowledge of eastern problems as related to Canada and other parts of the commonwealth, and also exceptional experience in military affairs, could be found who was as well qualified to fill this position as Major-General Victor W. Odium, at present general officer commanding the second Canadian division overseas. I am happy to be able to announce that General Odium has agreed to accept the appointment and that the appointment has been made. I need hardly say that General Odium accepted this position with reluctance and only on the assurance that in the opinion of the government this new post will provide exceptional opportunities for him to serve Canada at this very critical time.
Another appointment, a minor appointment, has been made which the government has felt to be important at this time. Believing that Canadian interests would benefit from the establishment of a consular office in St. Pierre Mr. Christopher C. Eberts of the Department of External Affairs was appointed a few weeks ago, vice-consul and acting consul for Canada at St. Pierre and Miquelon.


Mr. GREEN:: There has been a vacancy
in the post in Japan for a considerable period. Will an appointment be made in the near future?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The government has been quite prepared to make the appointment and has had a nominee ready to send to Japan, but for some time past there has been no transportation to take him across.
7ABOUR CONDITIONS



MARITIME PROVINCE LUMBER WORKERS EMPLOYED IN THE UNITED STATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. L. O'BRIEN (Northumberland, N.B.): I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. According to information which has recently been brought to my attention, there
4124	COMMONS
77ie War-National Defence-Mr. Ralston
is a serious shortage of labour in the lumber industry in the eastern provinces, and essential war production is threatened by the fact that large numbers of young, able-bodied lumber workers are crossing the border to work in the woods of the United States for United States companies. The number who have gone during the past few weeks is said to have been established at a figure of at least 2,000, but may total 7,000. In view of the requirements of the lumber industry in eastern Canada and the essential need for man-power in Canada, including the forestry corps, may I ask the Prime Minister to indicate: (1) why permits have been issued to these young men to cross the border; (2) what action will be taken to stop this drain on Canadian man-power.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am not in position to give a categorical answer to the questions asked by my hon. friend, but I may say to him that the government has had before it the matter to which he has referred and has been giving it careful consideration. I Shall be able to give him further details at another time.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Are visas being issued for this purpose, or have they been stopped?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am unable to answer that question offhand, but I shall secure the information.



CANADIAN ARMY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: Last session I asked the government to make a national survey of hospital accommodation, first, in the camps in Canada, and, second, for the men who are coming home. So far no reply has been made to this request. A disastrous fire occurred yesterday at Camp Borden and the Globe and Mail reports that the loss is set at $75,000. This included valuable equipment. It is stated that there was insufficient accommodation and that many patients were being housed in ramshackle huts. Cases of pneumonia and pleurisy had to flee the fire. The camp officials are reported to have said that there would have been a heavy loss of life had this fire occurred at night. What steps have been taken to remedy the hospital situation at Camp Borden, and will a survey be made of the other camps to see if they are safe? I should like to know also what additional fire protection will be afforded.


James Layton Ralston: I expeet to receive shortly a
report with regard to the occurrence at Camp Borden to which my hon. friend has referred. I know that extensive improvements in hospital accommodation were made at Camp Borden. If a survey is necessary, I shall see that it is made. If improvements are required, of course they will be taken in hand at once. From the reports which I have had, however, it would appear that the conditions to which my hon. friend refers certainly do not obtain generally and I doubt whether he has accurate information.



PENSIONS

[Stage Direction]
COST OF LIVING BONUS TO OLD AGE PENSIONERS AND RECIPIENTS OF MOTHERS* ALLOWANCES
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: During the last twenty-four hours I have received several letters from the Toronto district outlining the suffering of old age pensioners and those receiving mothers' allowances due to the fact that they are not receiving a cost of living bonus. Great hardships have been inflicted. Will the government give consideration to the question which I raised last session, and will a reply be given before parliament prorogues?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Consideration is being given to the matter.



QUESTION AS TO GENERAL REVIEW OF PENSION SCHEMES AND STATEMENT OF POLICY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. N. J. M. LOCKHART (Lincoln):: May I ask the government whether there is to be a general review of the pensions and dependents' allowance schemes in force in Canada? I refer more particularly to mothers whose sons are serving overseas, and who are finding it very difficult to exist under present allowances.	Will a general statement on the
various schemes of payment be given to the house before	parliament prorogues or
adjourns?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I think that is a similar question to others that have been asked. The reply is the same, that the matter is under consideration.



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE

[Stage Direction]
1941 DECLARED AN EMERGENCY YEAR On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. R. EVANS (Maple Creek):: Has the Minister of Agriculture given consideration to declaring this year an emergency year under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act?

The War

National Defence-Mr. Ralston


James Garfield Gardiner: The Prairie Farm Assistance Act provides that after the 1st of November of each year the government shall give consideration to the question whether that particular year shall be declared an emergency year. The government has given consideration to the question whether 1941 shall be declared an emergency year under the terms of the Prairie Farm Assistance Act and has agreed that the conditions are such as to warrant the year 1941 being declared an emergency year.



BUTTER AND MILK


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. H. LECLERC (Shefford):: May I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if it is the intention of the government to peg the price of butter this month and the following months, and will the price of fluid milk throughout the cities be pegged at summer or winter prices?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am sorry that from this distance I was unable to hear the question asked by the hon. gentleman. I shall take note of it in Hansard.



THE COMMUNIST PARTY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Angus MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) my question will be directed to the Prime Minister, and as I have not given notice of it he may not be able to answer this afternoon. My question is based on a news item which appeared in the Ottawa Evening Journal of yesterday, to the effect that Harvey Murphy, a native of Kitchener, has been arrested by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The item goes on to state that Murphy was president of the Ontario Federation of Unemployed until 1938, and that until his arrest he was district organizer of the communist party in Hamilton, Ontario. In view of the fact that Russia is no-w our ally, is it the intention of the government to continue with the arrest and internment of persons in this country because of membership in the communist party?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As my hon. friend has anticipated, I can hardly be expected to answer his question offhand, but I shall seek to give him a reply a little later on if the Minister of Justice does not happen to be in his seat.



WAR EXPENDITURES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. CASTLEDEN (Yorkton):: May I ask first, whether it is the intention of the government to continue now the sittings of ; the committee on war expenditures, and whether the powers of the committee will be extended to enable it to investigate contracts let by the Department of Munitions and Supply?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall have to reply to my hon. friend a little later on that latter point.



FEED GRAINS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. A. CRUICKSHANK (Fraser Valley):: I would like to direct two questions to the Minister of Agriculture. First, is the department aware of the great loss suffered in British Columbia in feed grains, and, second, will British Columbia be given the same treatment as eastern Canada in freight rates on feed grains?


James Garfield Gardiner: The answer to both questions is yes.



THE WAR

[Stage Direction]
INTERNATIONAL SITUATION SINCE JUNE 14, 1941 -Canada's war effort
The house in committee of the whole, Mr. Bradette in the chair.
James Layton Ralston: Mr. Chairman, when the committee rose yesterday I was dealing with the matter of equipment. My hon. friend the member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) had asked with regard to training equipment for units. I have had the matter gone into, and I should like to give him this reply.
He asked whether there were any units in training in Canada which are lacking in essential equipment for that training, and he spoke particularly of the fifth armoured division. I think we ought to differentiate in the matter of training equipment between the training carried on at the training centres and the training carried on in the units themselves. With regard to items of armament and equipment of which there was initially, as my hon. friend and the committee know, a marked shortage, we have in general given priority to allotment to training centres. The reason
4126	COMMONS
The War-National Defence-Mr. Ralston
for that is obvious. It enables the utmost possible use to be made of the limited quantities of equipment for the benefit of the greatest number. As a result of that policy I can say that some time ago we reached the stage where all our training centres were in possession of essential training equipment of all types except for two or three items of which we are still deficient, and I shall mention them in a moment.


Grote Stirling: That applies to the training camps across Canada for the trainees?


James Layton Ralston: To the training centres.
As regards the equipment necessary for the training of units, this, as I said, got a lower order of priority in the distribution. Nevertheless, again excepting a few items which I shall mention in a moment, the situation now is that all units of the active army are in possession of adequate scales of modern armament and equipment for training. We have, for example, ample supplies for training purposes of rifles, pistols, Bren guns, Vickers guns, submachine guns, 3-inch mortars, field artillery, mechanized transport, including universal carriers, and anti-gas equipment.
Our position regarding other items of equipment, such as wireless sets of which I have spoken more than once in the house, and supplies of which have been delayed, has recently shown a marked and rapid improvement.
The chief items in which there has been a notable deficiency are anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons, 2-ineh mortars and modern tanks. We are now, I am happy to say, well on the way to remedying these shortages.
My hon. friend asked me with regard to the tanks at Camp Borden, and I told him that we had there something like fifteen of the old type tanks, and also a number of what we call the American tanks and that they were being extensively used for training purposes. I did not tell him what I did not know at the moment, and what has occurred quite recently, that we have now at Camp Borden over twenty of the most modern tanks as well. These tanks were built in Canada and have already been of the greatest possible value to the armoured training centres and to the units of the armoured divisions.


Grote Stirling: What is the weight of Lose tanks?


James Layton Ralston: I am referring to the Valentine tank. We are also now making anti-aircraft guns, anti-tank guns, and 2-inch mortars, and issues of all of these items will be made for training purposes, we expect, within a very few weeks.
The committee will realize that we have to allot our production where it is most needed
[Mr. Ralston.!
at the moment. Training needs do get a very high priority, but it is not possible to apply the whole of our output by any means to training. Shipments have to be made overseas both for our own troops, to ensure them adequate reserves, and for other forces of the empire as well. We have to watch the situation constantly and send those weapons and equipment where they are most needed, and that is why sometimes we are slower than we otherwise would like to be in building up training equipment in Canada. I want to assure my hon. friends that while we are not at all complacent about this matter, it is clear that the great bulk of our deficiencies are now a thing of the past. Each day that passes will show an improvement, and I expect before long to be able to tell the house and the	committee	that	every	unit and
training school has every essential item, in completely adequate quantities, for training.
As I indicated to the committee, I do not propose, unless the committee desires it, at this stage to go into the matter of the various items of	equipment.	My	hon.	friend the
Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) has done that. I have here a statement with regard to equipment if it is desired to ask questions on any item.
With regard to training	I could take a
good deal of the committee's time on this subject.	There has	been	quite	a bit of
discussion in the newspapers about it. But I do not propose this afternoon to deal with the various methods of training, because I feel that the best testimony to our training is the fact that the general officer commanding the Canadian corps in England has expressed his satisfaction at and appreciation of the way in which training has been carried out and the nature of the training which has been given to our troops in Canada before going overseas. Our training is, of course, progressive; men are at different stages of training as they leave for overseas; the longer they are here the more they are trained. But our training is integrated with the training overseas, so that one dovetails into the other and they go right along from the stage they reached before they left Canada to the next stage overseas.
There is complete understanding between our training officers. As I indicated to the house before the adjournment, the director of military training at national defence headquarters spent two months in England last winter going into this matter of training, ascertaining what the needs were and what methods were best adapted to ensuring the highest efficiency having regard to the tasks which Canadian troops might be called upon to perform.

The War-National Defence-Mr, Ralston
To remind the committee with regard to our system of training centres may I put on record the figures? We have at the present time in Canada thirty basic training centres. Their capacity at any one time is 22,000, and the annual output is about 132,000 men. We have 35 advanced training centres, which include officers' training centres, small arms training centres, army trades schools, junior leaders' schools, administrative schools, driving and maintenance schools, and the senior officers' course at the Royal Military College. The capacity of all these advanced training institutions at one time is 27,000 other ranks and 3,000 officers; the annual output-again- is about 132,000 other ranks and 6,000 officers. You cannot simply multiply the former figures by twelve, because the length of the course is different in different places, but that is the aggregate annual output of these advanced training institutions.
We have worked out what I think is a very complete system of interchange between England and Canada of officers and noncommissioned officers who keep in touch by going back and forth between our troops in England and our troops here.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is for training purposes?


James Layton Ralston: For training purposes, yes, and also in respect of matters to which I will refer in a minute. While this is pethaps an aside, as it does not refer to Canadian officers, I may say that there are in Ottawa at the present time twenty British officers who have come to this continent for official purposes. We have taken advantage of their presence here to have them go to our training centres and examine our training systems to see if they can give us any suggestions-and I am sure they can-with regard to the system of training which is in force there. We have the benefit of that.
Generally speaking with regard1 to training, every effort is being made to follow British experience and practice. Senior officers proceed, to Britain periodically in order to keep in constant touch with the latest training methods, and these officers return to Canada and make such alterations in our training methods as seem to be required. In addition, there is a constant interchange of officers and non-commissioned officers between Canada and the Canadian corps. This policy ensures that our training methods in Canada are in line with the requirements overseas.
Every training officer charged with training at national defence headquarters has been overseas in this war, either on a liaison visit or in actual service with the Canadian corps. The two divisional commanders in Canada,
all their senior staff officers, and many of their junior officers, in addition to a large proportion of the brigade commanders, have had overseas experience.
In connection with the schools we have these arrangements for interchange. Every advanced training centre in Canada has some officers and non-commissioned officers on the training staff who are back from the United Kingdom. There is a constant flow of personnel between the holding units in England and the training centres in Canada. That is, the holding units in England send back officers to our training centres here: we send officers over to the holding units there in order to gain experience and to integrate and coordinate the training. We are providing for-as a matter of fact orders have already been issued for-the sending to the United Kingdom of officers and non-commissioned officers from units now in Canada for attachment to units in England so that they may gain experience over there. In addition to that we have staff attachments. We send over staff officers from Canada to England, twenty proceeding at a time. In addition to that we are providing that all active units in Canada will have a certain overseas representation in their officer strength; that is to say, some of their officers will have been overseas.
May I give another example with regard to the. schools which are operating in Kingston -and there are a number of them. At Kingston, where there are four different schools, fifty per cent of all the instructors are from overseas. This applies to the three months' senior officers' course, to the three months' company commanders' course, to the four months' junior war staff course, and the four months' junior intelligence course-which is both for officers and for non-commissioned officers. The junior war staff course was started in England. Its first term was held there, and then it was removed to Canada for reasons which hon. members will appreciate, because it was regarded as a permanent institution; and as I say, over fifty per cent of the instructors at that school have had overseas service.
We have also exchanges with the British Army, apart from the ad hoc arrangement which I mentioned a moment ago, under which certain British officers now in Canada are giving us the benefit of their experience. I can assure the committee that everything that can be done to bring the Canadian training of cadets into line with modem requirements, and the experience which has been gained overseas, is being done.
I will deal with one other matter. We have, as the committee knows, officers' training
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centres at Brockville and Victoria, the one at Brockville serving eastern Canada and the one at Victoria serving the west. These are organized to turn out 4,600 officers for the active army each year and to train over 2,000 officers for the reserve army each year. In addition to qualifying those already granted commissions, these schools take on for training 1,200 cadets who have been recommended and who are seeking to qualify for commissioned rank in the active army. We have also made arrangements in that connection with what is called the O.C.T.U. in England, the officer cadets training unit in the United Kingdom, so that at the end of every second course they send to us, to be attached to our officers' training centres here, two officers who have had experience instructing in the cadet training unit overseas. We keep them here for two courses and then allow them to go back, having other officers come to take their place.
I spoke of the junior war staff course at the Royal Military College for officers up to the appointment of G-2-a three months' course. Forty officers can be accommodated at one time. We have a school of army administration, providing for an administrative staff course for eight officers for four weeks; a wing for unit administration course for twelve officers, of four weeks; a wing for adjutants, company sergeant-majors and orderly room sergeants' course, eight officers and sixteen other ranks, covering two weeks; a wing for quartermasters and quartermaster sergeants, eight officers and sixteen other ranks, two weeks; and an advanced clerks' course for thirty other ranks covering four weeks.
We have a bilingual junior leaders' school at Megantic. There are fifteen courses in the year, there being two hundred candidates in each course. It is what its name implies, a course for non-commissioned officers, for junior leaders who are given special training in the responsibilities of leadership.
We have an advanced driving and maintenance school at Woodstock, Ontario. The men who go there first take what we call phase 2 training, which is training given at the technical schools which are operated under the Department of Labour throughout Canada. They then go to Woodstock and take one month's intensive course as driver mechanics. We accommodate four hundred a month, and the output ultimately will be about five hundred a month.
I cannot emphasize too strongly what I said last night as a result of what I observed overseas, namely, the importance of the work that is done by the driver mechanics. There is a great deal of work behind the lines which can

be saved if the driver mechanic is taught the principles of his trade and learns to look after his vehicle each night when he comes in, instead of allowing it to go until it gets so run down that it has to be laid up and sent to the workshop for major repairs. We give that special course in addition to some other courses for tradesmen, to which I shall refer.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: While the minister is on that point, recalling the statement made in this house about a year ago, may I ask to what extent non-commissioned officers have been privileged to get commissions? It has been said that the men must all pass through the ranks before commissions can be granted, but there have been many complaints from non-commissioned officers who say that they are still without opportunity of reaching that objective. Perhaps the minister will give a word of explanation.


James Layton Ralston: That would entail my getting information as to the number. My hon. friend will note what I said, namely, that at Brockville and Victoria we have no less than 1,200 cadets who are being trained during the year. They have gone through the ranks- almost all would be non-commissioned officers. They are recommended as cadets and they go to the officers' training school on that basis and obtain commissions if they pass their course.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They come principally from the non-permanent active militia.


James Layton Ralston: That may be. I shall have the figures looked up to see what number of non-commissioned officers or cadets have been put through.
I did not mention, in connection with the promotion of close relations between England and Canada, the matter of commands. I need only remind the committee that the divisional commanders have all had overseas service. Practically all brigade commanders in Canada at the present time have had commands overseas. A great number of senior staff officers in the various formations have been brought back from overseas. In a word, we have endeavoured as far as possible to see to it that there shall be a very substantial proportion of the senior officers in our formation who have had overseas service and experience.
Let me now say a word with regard to tradesmen. We have to realize, as I said last night, that the army cannot indefinitely continue to draw from the ranks of civilian labour large numbers of technical qualified tradesmen without seriously disrupting industry, and we have a set-up which is now in

The War-National Defence-Mr. Ralston.
operation, a very extensive scheme, for training large numbers of tradesmen required in the army. Potential tradesmen are secured by enlistment or selection from existing units. Selection boards have been set up for the purpose and they are assisted by a directorate at headquarters, which has to do with the selection of personnel for the various types of occupation needed to be filled in the army.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is the minister speaking of Canada?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: 'Will he tell us the position with respect to tradesmen in ordnance in England? I understood that there was a substantial deficiency which really ought to be filled. Perhaps he knows about that.


James Layton Ralston: I do know about it, and that is one of the reasons why we have doubled and almost trebled our capacity for the training of tradesmen in Canada. The facilities in England at the particular school I saw afforded training to fit men for trades of different kinds. Some of them were in training as driver mechanics. In Canada-and that is where the supply must come from- there has been, as probably my hon. friend has heard, a certain amount of combing out of units to find men adapted for that work. We have recognized that need and it has been thrown at us by the fact that the transport equipment is getting older. Some of it has been used a year and a half, and the maintenance question is an important one. There are 18,000 motor vehicles alone, apart from armoured fighting vehicles, and therefore we have had to enlarge substantially our provision for the training of tradesmen.
All these men who go to these schools about which I am going to speak are first given what we call phase 1 training, that is the basic training of a soldier for two months. Then they go on phase 2, which are these schools I have spoken of, conducted under the Department of Labour, which were the technical and vocational schools operated by the provinces all over the country. About four thousand men are being trained in those schools at the present time. The trades being taught in the vocational schools are blacksmiths, bricklayers, masons, concretors, carpenters and joiners, clerks, coppersmiths and tinsmiths, architectural, engineering, mechanical and topographical draughtsmen, electricians, engine artificers, fitters, instrument mechanics, motor mechanics, operator signals, plumbers and pipe fitters, welders, wireless mechanics, driver mechanics, turners, diesel mechanics, cooks and painters.
At these phase 2 schools, that is the vocational schools, facilities are being extended in order to handle about 6,000 men at any one time, or an annual capacity of 25,000.
As the committee knows, Canadian industry is cooperating in the instruction of additional men in a large proportion of those trades. At the present time about 4,000 men are being given instruction in various industrial plants, and the annual output from that source is now about 1,200.
When this phase 2 instruction is completed, the majority of the men proceed direct to their units or to training centres being classed as training reinforcements. The rest proceed to the army trade school at Hamilton or to the mechanics' training centre at London for further training. At the army trade school at Hamilton, which is a busy place-I know a number of hon. members have visited it-additional instruction is given in the following trades: artificers, blacksmiths, carpenters, electricians, engine artificers, fitters, instrument mechanics, motor mechanics, wireless mechanics, welders.
There is accommodation for 2,000 men at this school and the annual output will be about 500 a month. Those are more general trades. At the other school, the mechanical training centre at London, which was opened comparatively recently, I think about four months ago, instruction is given particularly in motor mechanics, diesel mechanics and aero engine mechanics. There is accommodation there for about 750 men, with an annual output of about 2,400.
They graduate from these schools and then go to the advanced training centres of their different arms-that is to say, the ordnance men go to the ordnance training centre, the AS.C. men to the A.S.C. training centre-and there they are given further training in the military application of their trades. So far they have been learning their trade; then they are shown how to apply it to the military vehicles and equipment of which they will have charge. Men of the ordnance corps, for instance, go to the ordnance training centre at Barriefield, where the present accommodation for 2,000 will soon be increased to 3,000. This releases men for overseas as and when required. In addition to giving the finishing touches to the training the ordnance training or other schools give complete training in certain specialized ordnance trades which I have not listed. The annual output will be from 1,500 to 2,000.
Then there are training centres not only for ordnance but also for other technical corps such as engineers, signals, army service and medicals. They carry on specialists' trades-

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men training in addition to completing the training of the men passed through the other schools.
To sum up, it means we have or are creating facilities for training of tradesmen in Canada which will give an annual output of about
40,000	tradesmen. These 40,000 are not all motor tradesmen but men to fit into the different trades required in the various army units. May I say that for an armoured division the percentage of tradesmen required is about 32 per cent, and for an infantry division, a percentage of about 17 per cent.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: What is being done about training more efficient types of cooks throughout the army and the camps in general?


James Layton Ralston: One thing that is being done which I know about particularly is at the school at Borden, which I believe has done extremely good work. I am not fond of comparing the new with the old, but I am absolutely satisfied that the cooking and dietetics in this war are greatly ahead of those in the last war.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: What else, apart from Borden?


James Layton Ralston: We have a chief inspector of catering and messing, Colonel Webb. Colonel Webb keeps in constant touch with the messing in all the districts. The units also have messing officers who get special instruction, and their duties are to supervise the preparation, cooking, and serving of the meals. They should see that the daily diet sheet is lived up to and that the food is properly cooked. Each district has a messing inspector specially qualified. I cannot state at the moment where there are other cooking schools. I am sure there are some in the west. Has my hon. friend some complaint in regard to cooks?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Yes, there seems to be a general feeling that good food is being spoiled in so many camps by men who have not had any training or only very limited training as cooks, perhaps before they entered the army, and who in some instances neglect to remove much of that infernal grease before serving and maybe doing injury to the health of many of our men in service.


James Layton Ralston: I am very sorry and disappointed to hear that, because that is not the report that comes to me. Probably the good reports come to me, but I must say that the inspectors generally as I know them are pretty rigid in regard to the matter of rations and cooking. I see or am referred to most of their reports, and I do not get reports
(Mr. Ralston.]
such as my hon. friend suggests, indicating the existence of any general condition of the kind. I did have a bad report from one training centre. I had it investigated from the top down, or the bottom up, and the reports that came to me, from an officer who was absolutely independent, showed that the condition complained of was an exception; with the exception of the one meal in question the situation was not general at all. But I should be obliged if my hon. friend would give me particulars of any instances of the kind, because no doubt there are cases where men do not complain to the orderly officer, they may think they will get in wrong by doing it, and where some action from headquarters may help.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: So far as the training of cooks is concerned, men selected in the different districts as prospective cooks are being sent to selected cookhouses at training centres and other units to receive instruction in cooking, besides going to Borden for their special training there. That is being done in our district as well as in others.


James Layton Ralston: I thank my hon. friend for calling that to my attention, because he has had personal experience in connection with this whole matter.
The committee may be interested to hear a word with regard to the National Resources Mobilization Act personnel. Since the four months' training plan announced last March came into effect, there have been accepted for training 25,903. Of this number over 10,000 are still in training, 4,296 have completed their training and are actively employed in the army, and about 4,000 have been discharged on medical grounds or released to war industry. The balance, according to the figure I have here, is 8,296. I am not sure that that jibes exactly with the total I gave at first, but I think it is about right. The balance of 8,296, as of October 25, have enlisted for active service in the army, navy or air force. Of these about 5,000 enlisted in the army. That is to say the figures show that out of 25,903 trained since March 20 there were 8,296 who have enlisted.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is about one-third.


James Layton Ralston: Yes, I generally estimate it at about 25 per cent. The figures are larger than I thought they were.
The committee will realize of course that this has been a very disjointed presentation, but I am trying to deal with subjects in which the committee may be interested, and concerning which perhaps not a great deal has been said.

The War-National Defence-Mr. Ralston
I was glad to announce the authorization of the Canadian Women's Army Corps. That corps has been organized. At the present time it has a strength of 21 officers and 425 other ranks. It is expected that by April 1 it will grow to upwards of 2,000 all ranks. As the committee knows, this is one of the ways of endeavouring to save man-power, and I am confident that once it has got under way it will grow very substantially.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is the intention in that regard? What are they to do?


James Layton Ralston: There are four major occupations. First we have dietetics, including cooks and waitresses; then, clerks, then auxiliary services and canteen workers and then motor transport workers. These are four of the outstanding lines of occupation. The committee will understand1 that where we have to have female assistance in outlying camps or outlying areas, special accommodation has to be provided. That is being done now. I think yesterday's press contained a report of some examples of cases where men have been replaced by members of the Canadian Women's Army Corps.


Grote Stirling: Is that for service in Canada?


James Layton Ralston: Yes, for service in Canada. Nothing has been done as yet with regard to services outside of Canada. We want to get it well organized first. It is a situation we cannot rush at. But the response has been good, and the appointments which have been made have, in my opinion, been excellent. I believe it will be proved that we have been wise in going slowly in the matter. We have not yet appointed a commandant of the Canadian Women's Army Corps, although I expect an announcement will be made shortly. We asked Matron-in-Chief Smellie to act as adviser with regard to organization. Her experience and her judgment and advice have been invaluable. Matron-in-Chief Smellie has travelled throughout the length and breadth of Canada, and has met women in different organizations interested. She lhas explained the needs of the army for the service they can perform. As I say, the response has been excellent. As the committee is aware, personnel are obtained through the Department of National War Services. The Department of National Defence makes requisition on the Department of National War Services, and that department sends us personnel, subject to approval by the department itself.


Grote Stirling: How are the commissions granted?


James Layton Ralston: Most of the officers
appointed1 so far had had service with other women's corps of this type. They have not been granted from the ranks. It is expected that shortly we shall be able to institute the system we have in the army-that is to say, coming through the ranks for a certain period, and then being commissioned.


Mark Cecil Senn: How are the ladies to be employed called up? Is it according to date of application? A number in my district are anxiously waiting to be called.


James Layton Ralston: This is within the jurisdiction of the Department of National War Services. I shall make inquiries to see whether anything can be done by the Department of National Defence with respect to those who are particularly eligible.
May I just say a word respecting the reserve army. Two or three months ago we issued instructions with regard to the reserve army, which, while somewhat changing its status, gave it a definite role in our whole scheme of military organization. We have pointed out that the reserve army constitutes an important factor in the defence of Canada and in maintaining our active army overseas. In order to meet the situations as they arise in an ever-changing war it is essential that we have the reserve army well organized, well trained and, as far as possible consistent with other requirements, well armed. Present plans do not contemplate any extensive additional mobilization of reserve units, but that possibility is to be kept in mind.
We have outlined the duties of the reserve army to be these: an operational role in the defence of Canada, when and where required; aid to the civil power in cases of subversive or other disturbances; reinforcement of the active army-that is to say, by enlisting men, and having them ready to support their active unit, if it is overseas, or some other active unit in the same territory, if it happens that that particular unit has not an active unit overseas. Then there is the possibility, in some instances at least, of mobilization.
We have indicated to them that those functions are not cited in order of importance. They are all important, and we cannot tell which one at a particular time may have to be complied with. It does make the position of the reserve units difficult; at the same time that is the situation which exists in Canada, and we cannot do otherwise than ask them to have their eyes on those four roles as the major jobs for which they were organized. We have asked that they be administered so that they may be in a position to carry out
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whichever function they may be called upon to perform, in view of conditions at a particular time.
Then, there was another new rule. We felt we should increase the age limit and decrease the medical category. In other words we have raised the age limit for the reserve to fifty years and decreased the medical category to category C. But we have indicated that in view of the fact that they will be taking in men who will be reinforcements, and also that in some cases there might be possibility of mobilization, they may take up to a certain percentage of A or higher category men.
What they are doing is paying special attention to training, both basic and advanced and specialized. There will also be increased issue and distribution of equipment with regard to the reserve army, taking into account, of course, the needs of the active units. It is no lip-service I am paying when I point out what a valuable contribution the reserve army of Canada and its officers have made to this war effort through at first being the backbone of the active army, being in their places and endeavouring in every possible way to train men to make them ready to enlist in active units, and doing their best to induce them to understand what their duty is when the call comes.
The officers and non-commissioned officers have been indefatigable, and the men have been most faithful in training, in the attention they have given to their work, and in then-desire to be of service. To some extent the [DOT] reserve army consists of men who because of financial or domestic or personal reasons are unable to take their places in the active army. In the reserve they are trying to do their part as best they can, so that we may release all the men possible for active duty.


Grote Stirling: The pay the officers and
men receive is still on the same basis as it used to be, is it not? It is based on the time of service in Canada?


James Layton Ralston: It is on the basis of training. The basis this year is up to fifty per cent of strength, that is to say, they may receive training pay for personnel up to fifty per cent of their total war strength. That is now being reconsidered.


Howard Charles Green: Are the reserve units permitted to recruit up to strength? I understand that some units on the Pacific coast are far below strength and are greatly discouraged. There seems to be something wrong with the way the reserve army is being handled.


James Layton Ralston: There are some officers at headquarters who have an especially warm spot

in their hearts for the reserve army and they give it constant attention. They realize the difficulties and are endeavouring to improve their position in every way and to give the reserve the recognition which will ensure that it is used to the best advantage. Representations have been received from the west coast with regard to a unit which was recruited practically up to strength and which desired to be paid for that, number. The present rule is that they may recruit up to strength, but they are paid for training only up to fifty per cent.


Howard Charles Green: Would not the esprit de corps be improved if they were paid for the full strength?


James Layton Ralston: Yes, it would, and the
matter is being considered. Just before I left for England I had a talk with the army council, and I am not satisfied with the situation in this regard. The rule was made because of a lack of training equipment and because of the tremendous appeal which was being made for recruits for the active army. There were not a great number of units in which the strength was more than fifty per cent, and that figure was taken as a fair average for payment. In many units the men pool their pay; they train without pay except that it goes to the benefit of the regiment as a whole. In other words, pay has not been the absolute test of whether or not a man would serve in the reserve unit. Many have agreed that their pay should go into regimental funds.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any method whereby an officer or a non-commissioned officer in a reserve unit can transfer to the active army and retain something like the rank he held in the reserve army?


James Layton Ralston: If an officer in the active unit asks for a man who is qualified as an officer and recommends him accordingly, I do not think there would be any difficulty about the transfer. A man may transfer to an active unit simply by enlisting.


Howard Charles Green: If a sergeant-major in a reserve unit enlisted in the active army would he have to give up his rank?


James Layton Ralston: If he was commission material he would be recommended by the officer commanding for an officer's training course where he could qualify for a commission.


Howard Charles Green: A sergeant would have to revert to the rank of private?


James Layton Ralston: Unless the commanding officer asked for a man with that rank.


Howard Charles Green: A major would have to revert to the rank of lieutenant?

The War-National Defence-Mr. Ralston


James Layton Ralston: Neither of those ranks would be carried to the new unit as of right. If a man has the qualifications and is needed, he can be transferred.


Howard Charles Green: I know of cases where a man has been asked for by the officer commanding an active unit and it has been impossible to have him transferred.


James Layton Ralston: If my hon. friend will give me the particulars of any case where a man has been qualified to cover off a particular vacancy, I shall look into it.


Howard Charles Green: He was qualified.


James Layton Ralston: Was there a place in the other unit into which a man of his rank would fit?


Mr. MUTCH:: Wouldn't that matter lie in the discretion of the commanding officer of the reserve unit? He would have to have the consent of both commanding officers.


Howard Charles Green: The officers in both units were willing, but the district would not allow it.


James Layton Ralston: I am assuming that the man was requested by the unit to which he was going, and consent was given by the unit from which he was going.


Mr. BRUCE:: In view of what the minister has said with regard to raising the age limit to fifty years and lowering the medical category, is it not likely that the number who will enlist in the reserve army for service overseas will be greatly diminished? Is there any provision under which a certain proportion of those admitted into the reserve army will be expected to state their willingness to go overseas?


James Layton Ralston: There is no such provision.
Those are the subjects upon which I think the committee would like information. No doubt there are other subjects in the minds of hon. members about which they would like me to speak and when the opportunity comes I shall be glad to answer any questions.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the minister give us a statement at some stage of the proceedings with regard to the position of our troops in England, and who has the last say in their disposition overseas? I understood that there was some difficulty in the early stages of the war. I consulted the Minister of National Defence for Air at one time and he endeavoured to make this clear to me, but I could not understand the situation. I think the fault was probably mine rather than his.


Charles Gavan Power: The legislation is not very clear.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I understand that there has been some clarification and that the position is now quite satisfactory. I should like to know just what the steps have been and what the position is now. I heard that enlistments will not be received by the department for active service in Canada.


James Layton Ralston: I really hesitate to make a statement with respect to the visiting forces act. The hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) asked me to make a statement, which I did. I will be quite frank and say that that statement was made after I had seen the Department of External Affairs and had obtained their statement with respect to the matter. There are two expressions used, "serving together" and "serving in combination with".


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is there any difference?


James Layton Ralston: There is quite a difference. If my hon. friend will permit me, I would rather look up the statement I made before.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I realize it is a technical matter.


James Layton Ralston: The statute is technical and the order in council passed under it is technical. I think I can say that the last word with regard to Canadian forces going to serve outside the United Kingdom lies with the government of Canada. If they go out of England for service the government of Canada would be asked to give its consent.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They have the last word?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the government of Canada undertake to act upon the recommendation of the commander of the Canadian corps, or does it exercise independent judgment and make an independent decision?


James Layton Ralston: The government of Canada would give the greatest weight to the recommendation of the general officer commanding the Canadian corps. The government of Canada would have to take responsibility eventually. I was writing a note in order to get the reference in Hansard to what I said before. If my hon. friend will leave it, I shall make a statement later.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I realize the difficulty. Will the second question I asked be looked into?


James Layton Ralston: No, they cannot volunteer for active service confined to Canada.
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Richard Burpee Hanson: You cannot volunteer for active service in Canada- that is a fact. Will the minister express any reason for that policy? If he does not want to do so, I shall not press him.


James Layton Ralston: I shall deal with that
later, if my hon. friend will permit me.
What I have said, Mr. Chairman, was bound to be disjointed, but I have tried to give as quick a resume of the activities of the department as I could in the short time at my disposal for preparation.
Before I sit down I want to join with what the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) has said with regard to what we learned overseas, and to pay tribute to the morale, courage and determination of the British people. I found them, as he found them, still superb, and better prepared than they were last December when I was over there. I found them still ready to go short themselves if they thought that any other theatre of war provided an opportunity for effective use of equipment against the enemy. It is both a challenge and an inspiration to go to England and to meet those men and women and those boys and girls who have stood so much in the last year, who know it is coming again, and who are absolutely unflinching.
With regard to the course of the war I think we must remember that Greece and Crete gained time for us. Hitler's attack on Russia was thus delayed, and Russia's resistance to Hitler's attack has again delayed the invasion of Britain. We now know that we have reason for thankfulness that the invasion of Britain did not come in June or July of 1940, at a time when, as Lord Gort's dispatches indicate, the situation was serious enough.
I want to impress on the committee what has already been said but cannot be said too often. My own feeling is that the war has only just really begun, that so far all that we have done is to avoid defeat, that we still have to begin to win.
Casting up the balance sheet as of to-day as compared with a year ago, we have on the debit side Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete overrun, Russia attacked and very serious inroads made upon her. The one-by-one policy has seemed to prevail, and the juggernaut has run on. On the other side, we have that outstanding fact which I have just mentioned, namely, that the British have come through. They have proved that they can stand the blitzkrieg. There is no chance in the world of bombing ever bringing those brave people to their knees. We have Iran,

Iraq and Syria, all on the credit side of the sheet. We have United States sentiment, and not only sentiment but powerful influences and support as well, more strongly consolidated and being exerted in a more effective way than a year ago. We have growing resistance in occupied countries, which is making itself felt day by day, and we have the heroic resistance which Russia is making, to the amazement and gratification and admiration of the world. All that is on the credit side of the sheet. Hitler's dream of securing not merely military but economic domination over Russia is yet unfulfilled. He expected a rapid victory. He has not had it, and it surely must have upset his plans.
But I do want to emphasize the fact that resistance is not enough and will not bring victory; that so long as the forces of destruction continue to rage there can be no security and no peace in any corner of the world. The way to shorten the war is to have the free world with its whole resources and its total energy concentrated on the supreme task of being able to deal with Hitler in the only language he knows, and that is the language of force. Canada has its place in that great undertaking.
I am no defeatist. I believe we shall win, not simply because we say so, but because Canada along with the other democracies will stop at nothing which can effectively be done to ensure that the forces of evil shall be stamped out, that the menace of slavery shall be banished, and that free men and their families may enjoy the liberty which until this struggle began we in this dominion had somehow taken for granted. We cannot take it for granted any longer. The menace is against Canada as well as against the rest of the world.


James Arthur Ross: In giving enlistment figures last night the minister said that about 105,000 had volunteered for service. They would not all be medically fit, I presume.


James Layton Ralston: They are the enlistments.


James Arthur Ross: What are the figures
of those medically fit?


James Layton Ralston: Those are the enlistments, the number accepted.


James Arthur Ross: Attested as medically fit?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


James Arthur Ross: We had a case in
Winnipeg of a man wanting a medical rejection. The recruiting officer told him that that could not be granted until he had actually enlisted and been medically examined. That is why I was a little confused by the minister's figures.

The War-Air Services-Mr. Power


James Layton Ralston: By enlistments I mean
accepted.


Charles Gavan Power: Mr. Chairman, the personnel of the Royal Canadian Air Force in Canada and overseas on the 1st of November, 1941, was 89,000 odd, which brings us to approximately 90,000 to-day, the 6th of November. This is in addition to personnel attached to the Royal Canadian Air Force belonging to the Royal Air Force, the Royal Australian Air Force and the Royal New Zealand Air Force. It is also in exclusion of something like 11,000 civilians, about half of whom are taking the place of service men who have been released for more active duty. So that, all told, there are to-day under the control of the Department of National Defence for Air well over 100,000 persons.
It may be of interest to the committee if I discuss for a moment the question of manpower in Canada as it affects the Royal Canadian Air Force. The age limit for the entry of pilots-I am speaking largely of air crews, that is those who will eventually become pilots, observers, wireless air gunners and gunners, in whom we are particularly interested-the age limit for pilots is from 18 to 31; it is 18 to 30 really-those who have not reached 31. For observers the age limits are 18 to 32-those who have not reached 33- and for wireless air gunners and gunners .the age limits are the same.
The class of the population in which we are particularly interested is the class from 18 to 25 years of age, and so I have asked the officers of the department to give me some statistics regarding that class in order that I may indicate to the house and the country the approximate reserves of man-power which will be necessary to enable us to carry on our operations.
Assuming that there are in Canada to-day 177,150 males between the ages of 18 and 25 who have completed junior matriculation- the educational qualification is a most important factor in our work-and assuming that 33 per cent are physically unfit for aircraft duty, because we require a very high standard, and that 17 per cent have no inclination to fly, this would leave 50 per cent available, or 88,575.
It is impossible to estimate the number of these who have already enlisted in the Royal Canadian Air Force and in the other services, but assuming this figure to be 50 per cent, which I think is a little low, it will leave a pool of 38,575 available for enlistment as pilots or observers.
The educational qualifications for wireless air gunners and gunners are somewhat lower
than junior matriculation. Two years of high school will do. For the moment I am speaking only of wireless air gunners or gunners.
It is estimated that 26,000 men with complete junior matriculation reach the age of 18 each year. Deducting fifty per cent of this figure to cover those who will be medically unfit or have no inclination to fly, will leave 13,000 qualified for enlistment as pilots and observers becoming of age each year. There will therefore be a deficiency, because we will require many more than 13,000, if we take only those coming up each year. Part of this deficiency will be made up by bringing up to the required educational standards, through the medium of the dominion-provincial youth training schools and the Canadian Legion, applicants who in other respects are qualified for enlistment in this category. We also have our backlog of the 38,000, and besides, if the necessity arises, the age group between twenty-five and thirty-two, to which I have not referred, but which is in existence to some extent, although it must have been seriously depleted by enlistments already, both in the air force and in other arms of the service.
Fortunately it has been possible, and without any very great propaganda on our part, to enlist a certain number of American applicants. So that for the moment at least, though I give no guarantee of the future, and for some months to come, we have a considerable reserve from which we can draw for our aircrew requirements. During the month of July, for instance, we enlisted something near 4,000 aircrew, and at the end of the month there were about that many whose applications were in a more or less complete state and of whom we could probably get 3,000 to come into aircrew training should we require them.
I give this next figure with some reluctance, and with a warning to the committee that it may not mean all that it appears to mean. It is called "approaches", "approaches" meaning that a man has visited a recruiting centre. The total number of approaches to the Royal Canadian Air Force recruiting centres since the war started is 317,304. I do not want that to be taken to indicate that there are really 317,000. I am under the impression that, particularly in the early stages of the war, a man may have gone two or three times and have been checked two or three times. But this is continuing. Last week, for instance, the figures were something like 1,790, indicating that there is a continuing interest in recruiting in the Royal Canadian Air Force, which has not slackened in any appreciable degree since the beginning of the war.
Total medical examinations at recruiting centres since the beginning of the war were
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153,277. I am sorry to say that I have not the figures indicating how many of these were rejected. The total trade tests were 97,145, of which 41,896 have been enlisted. Sometimes the trade tests are only interviews with the trade tests officers, but they are all counted in here as trade tests.
I give these figures to show that, in any survey of actual or potential man-power in Canada, having regard to the requirements of the armed forces, the needs of the Royal Canadian Air Force must be taken into consideration. Particularly there is that field of the age group between 18 and 25, wherein, without any particular efforts on our part, without any propaganda, there will undoubtedly be priority for the Royal Canadian Air Force. Whether we like it or not, whether we take any other steps, selective or otherwise, the young men of Canada between 18 and 25 want to join the Royal Canadian Air Force; and it does not matter what we do about it, they are going to join it anyway.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbuiy):: Or the navy.


Charles Gavan Power: Or the navy. We have been asked by the leader of the opposition what is our objective. In so far as the air force is concerned the sky is the limit. We will take as aircrew all the young men of Canada who are willing and able to serve, and we make no limit anywhere. I do not even follow the example of my hon. friend the Minister of National Defence for the Army. If anyone wants to enlist in our air force, whether his employer likes it or not, whether his employer calls him a key man or not, if he wants to come in the air force he comes in, and that is all there is to it.
With respect to the higher strategic aspects of the war which were discussed by the leader of the opposition and the Minister of National Defence, namely as to with what particular branch of the service the war is eventually to be won, I am not prepared to discuss that, because I do not know. But I will say this: you may need the army to win the war, but you will lose the war without the air force. That has been patent to everybody since the war started, and that condition is going to obtain to the end of the war. The experience of this war has shown that, even with her mighty mechanized forces, Germany made no advances whatsoever until she obtained air superiority. If one were to assimilate this factor to what has occurred in ages gone by, probably you would recast the somewhat blasphemous expression attributed to Napoleon, that God is on the side of the heaviest battalions, and say that this war has shown that Providence is on the side of those who

have air supremacy. Up to this time there has been no doubt of that.
As is usual in discussing matters relating to this department, for the sake of clarity I have endeavoured to divide the activities of the department into home war, joint air training plan, and the overseas forces.
Beginning with home war, activities during the summer recess have been confined largely to the construction of new defensive aerodromes and to the consolidation of those already started: on the east coast, Yarmouth, Shelburne, Dartmouth, Sydney; and in Newfoundland, Botwood, Gander, arwj Torbay- the latter recently opened officially by the unofficial landing of my hon. friend the Minister of National Defence on his arrival from the other side only last week, in the first aeroplane to land at that particular aerodrome. Going north, we have established aerodromes and staging facilities at Goose Bay-that is Northwest River, Labrador, and elsewhere. These are for defence, for ferrying, and for spare aerodromes in case fog or weather conditions make any of the other places unavailable.
On the west coast we have carried out the same programme of developing stations all along the coast-Alliford Bay, Ucluelet, Tofino, Coal Harbour, Bella Bella, Prince Rupert, and, on this side of the mountains, of developing the great circle route Edmonton-White Horse-Alaska. The squadrons on both coasts have been materially increased in numbers, and above all we now have a certain number of aircraft for them-Digbys, Hudsons, Boling-brokes, and Stranraers made in Canada, and, recently, Kitty Hawks and Catalinas. In that respect, let me repeat what was said in the house, I believe in June, 1940, or earlier. So far as we are concerned, the first line of defence of this country is on the other side, and if we have here aircraft that are required over there they will get them. Recently we were about to take delivery of a certain number of Aerocobras, the fastest fighting aircraft in the world, but they were more useful on the other side and1 they were sent there. Only two or three weeks ago delivery had begun of a certain number of Catalina PBY flying boats, the latest and best development in this type of aircraft. They were found to be more useful on the other side and they are there now.
With respect to the personnel of these squadrons on both coasts, they have a risky, dirty, tiresome and boring task. They may not have all the risk, but certainly they have a large proportion of the risk encountered by those on active service. They serve in lonely places and in dirty weather and patrol work is hazardous in the extreme. Little glamour

The War-Air Services-Mr. Power
is attached to it, and yet they carry on day after day without complaint. I therefore wish once more to pay tribute to them and to assure them that, as circumstances permit, it will be my intention to give them an opportunity to do t'he kind of work overseas which all of them desire to engage in.
In connection with the home effort, we have instituted a school known as the CWAAF- the Canadian Women's Auxiliary Air Force. In that connection we have taken a different attitude from my hon. friend, in that, with the exception of three or four commissions, no commissions have been given directly. One commission was given the commanding officer, Mrs. Walker, and two others were female medical doctors who have come into the service with commissions. The remainder are being trained at the school in Toronto, where we have taken over the Havergal ladies' college. We began by selecting for training, to be turned out in accordance with the marks obtained, either as non-commissioned officers or officers, 150 women from across Canada. When these have been selected they will form the nucleus of the officers and non-commissioned officers of the corps, and we expect to open training schools for others, who will come in very much greater numbers as time goes on.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How do they propose to make these selections?


Charles Gavan Power: The 150 have been selected. The board was composed of the commanding officer, a medical officer, Doctor Davey of Hamilton, one officer who was lent to us by the United Kingdom from the W.A.A.F., and one male officer of the Royal Canadian Air Force. The board received applications in the different sections of the country and from among those applications selected those who were to go to this school for training.


Grote Stirling: What will be their principal duties


Charles Gavan Power: Largely clerical and dietetic, perhaps more in connection with motor transport and more active work at the aerodromes. For instance, at the flying training schools such as Uplands, we shall require 126 to take the place of men. They will serve as cooks and so on, and do the work of service men who are employed operating telephones, and they will engage in parachute packing and work of that kind. In the Royal Air Force an infinite variety of work is being done by these women, and we expect that as time goes on, more gradually than would have been the case on the other side, it will be possible to introduce women into a great deal of the work now done by general-duties men or by men in orderly rooms on the station.


Grote Stirling: Is there a flood of applications?


Charles Gavan Power: We do not get the applications. I was surprised to hear the Minister of National War Services say that he had only 16,000 applications altogether from women. I surmise the reason is that women who are in existing unofficial organizations probably prefer to remain in those organizations in the hope that they will be taken over as a whole. I am only surmising that; I do not know. If so, that may account for it. I had anticipated such a flood of applications as would render it difficult to deal with the matter.
In addition to the organization of the women's auxiliary corps, the air cadet league of Canada has been instituted. It was inaugurated in June and began its work some time ago. I have here a list of the directorate. The president is Mr. George B. Foster, K.C., of Montreal, and there is a list of excellent men chosen from all over Canada. I will put the list on Hansard.
Hon. F. P. Brais, K.C.
H.	R. Carson
A. W. Carter, M.B.E., D.S.C.
Pierre deVarennes, K.C.
H. E. Drope
Gilbert M. Eaton
John D. Eaton
Sir Ellsworth Flavelle
G. B. Foster, K.C., D.F.C.
Chas. A. Gray
Geo. R. Hodgson
Major R. H. B. Ker
D. R. MacLaren, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C.
Arthur L. Melling
W. W. Rogers
Hon. Ivan Schultz, K.C.
Earle Spafford Terrence M. Sheard
The honorary secretary is Mr. Arthur L. Melling, and Squadron Leader R. W. Frost, R.C.A.F., is acting national director.
At the present time there are in existence in Canada something like 14,000 air cadets in units divided somewhat as follows-I will give the number of air cadets: British Columbia, 2,500, nineteen units; Alberta, 1,200, eleven units; Saskatchewan, 2,400, eighteen units; Manitoba, 700, three units; Ontario, 1,000, eight units; Quebec, 5,000, thirteen units; Nova Scotia, 200, three units; Prince Edward Island, 100, two units.
This is the potential which they have at the moment, because most of these units are in process of organization and have not yet applied for affiliation to the league. Actually enlisting under their auspices or belonging to the league are 3,400 cadets in thirty-three units. These 3,400 are actually affiliated to the league but the others are outside the league,
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though it is expected that they will come in. The league is rapidly organizing cadet units across Canada.


Mark Cecil Senn: Is there an age limit?


Charles Gavan Power: The age limit is eighteen- well, they must not have reached eighteen because by that time we take them for the R.C.A.F. They can start at twelve, but those from twelve to fourteen are not encouraged.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Fourteen to eighteen?


Charles Gavan Power: They have the right to go
down to twelve, but we are not encouraging that; the ages that are encouraged are from thirteen to seventeen. I am glad to say that in many instances former Royal Canadian Air Force or fleet air arm officers have turned out gladly to help these boys by giving them their drill and training. The air cadet training programme is a basic training programme and is similar to the elementary ground training received in our own schools. In addition to that we have inaugurated a system of university training for future air crew recruits. It is not a C.O.T.C. in that we do not give or promise them commissions, but it is a university air training course. A number of Canadian universities have made arrangements with us to provide what is called pre-flight training on the Royal Canadian Air Force syllabus as an alternative to army training. Only university students who can meet the medical requirements for air crew training and who sign a statement of honourable intention to join the Royal Canadian Air Force at the completion of their university course are being accepted. Medical examination and uniforms will be provided by the Royal Canadian Air Force, which will also make available the necessary training equipment and instructional assistance.
Students who have completed compulsory military training may complete the air force course this year, and other students who have not yet undergone compulsory military training may spread the air force course over two academic years. Students completing this course will be recognized as having fulfilled the requirements under the National Resources Mobilization Act.
The course will be equivalent to the course of training at initial training schools of the Royal Canadian Air Force in connection with the British commonwealth air training plan. Such schools provide preliminary ground training for future pilots and air observers. The university course will provide 200 hours of similar instruction in mathematics, armaments, air force law, airmanship, theory of flight,

et cetera and will be followed by two weeks of summer camp at one of the service flying training schools, where this ground instruction in air force life will be continued under service conditions.


Grote Stirling: They will still have to
attain the educational standard?


Charles Gavan Power: By the very fact of being
students at the university they have matriculation.
Besides this, in an endeavour to salvage those who have failed on their first attempt, we have opened a "cease training" school at Trenton, Ontario, for pilots particularly who fail through no fault of their own, perhaps on account of physical defects or because they just naturally cannot fly a machine. We have formed a reorientation school, or rehabilitation school if you like, at Trenton, wherein these young men are assisted in finding some other trade. It may be a man would not make a good pilot but has the educational qualifications to be an observer, or it may be a regional control officer, or if he has a good educational background he may make a ground navigator instructor, if he has a good knowledge of mathematics. I am glad to say, and I know it will be of great interest to the committee to know that that school has been placed under the care and command of one of our colleagues, who is doing a mighty good job, Wing-Commander Denton Massey, at Trenton.


Mr. TUSTIN:: After these boys are "washed out" as pilots, as I believe it is called, do they all go to this school to be re-selected for some other branch of the service?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes, I think so. There is
quite a number there at the present time, and at one time until they got properly organized, they stayed there some considerable time, but I am told that that situation has improved enormously and we are getting them out to other branches and other trades. My information is that this school has been a great success.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the
minister ascertain whether it is compulsory for these boys to go to that school, or have they the right of election?


Charles Gavan Power: We have had two or three kinds of enlistment; the original enlistment for aircrews I think gave us the right to say, "Even if you do not succeed as a pilot you will have to go on and try as an observer or a wireless air gunner or gunner if we want you

The War-Air Services-Mr. Power
to." As a matter of fact we did that. I shall have to check back to see what the status is of a man who enlisted for aircrew and failed on one or more points, whether we can put him down to standard duty. I think that lately we have brought that into effect, but I am not sure.
I come now to the joint air training plan. The growing importance of this plan I think I need not stress, but as an example of the interest with which it is being regarded on the other side I call attention to the fact that it was thought of sufficient importance for a member of the royal family, His Royal Highness the Duke of Kent, to visit the air training
schools of the joint empire training plan in Canada, as well as those belonging to the Royal Air Force. He came as an air commodore in the Royal Air Force and, as befits such an officer, he flew from one end of this country to the other and visited as many schools as, if not more than, any inspector excepting the inspector-general of our own Canadian force. He was well received by our people; they were extremely glad to see him, and when he left he told me he had enjoyed his visit very much.
In connection with the joint air training scheme some flying statistics may be of interest:
I.	Hours flown by J.A.T.P. schools to September 30, 1941	 1,795,893
At 125 miles per hour this represents	 224,486,625 miles
Number of fatal accidents	 157
Number of hours flown per fatal accident	 11,438 hours
Number of miles flown per fatal accident	 1,429,851 miles
2.	United States civilian flying in 1940 show 1,269,231 miles flown per each
fatal accident.
3.	The fatal accident rate of J.A.T.P. schools has come down from November,
1940, when it was -17 to September, 1941, when the rate was -067 or 1 fatal accident to 1,818,279 miles flown, but we must expect an upward trend during the winter months.
4. Total flying time for September, including home war establishment and
Royal Air Force in Canada	
253,490	hoursTotal flying time since April, 1940	
1,887,130	hoursTotal flying time since Sept. 30/40 to Sept. 30/41	
1,760,640	hours
Total flying time since Jan. 1, 1941-that is for nine months of the present
year	 1,596,680	hours
This latter figure indicates that the total flying time for the present
calendar year will be about	 2,250,000	hours
5. If the average flying speed is taken at 125 miles an hour, then we are exceeding 31,686,250 miles a month, or over 1,000,000 miles a day.
Now this I am sure will be of interest to hon. members; all the flying stations in Canada are now selected. I am not asking for any more aerodromes. As far as the joint air training plan is concerned they are not all open, but they are all selected, and I am handing to Hansard a list of the British commonwealth air training plan establishments. The plan is now in full operation. As a matter of fact there remain two schools to open before the end of the year, but all sites are selected and construction well under way, and we do not propose to develop any more aerodromes. That does not mean that we are going to remain static; what we shall do will be that when we "upgrade" or increase the pupil population we shall add more buildings to the existing establishments. For instance, in the elementary training flying schools we propose to make into double schools, I think five this month which are at present single schools, and next spring probably two or three more. The British commonwealth air training plan establishments are as follows:
British Commonwealth Air Training Plan Establishments
Elementary Flying Training Schools Malton, Ont.
Fort William, Ont.
London, Ont.
Windsor Mills, P.Q.
High River, Alta.
Relief-Frank Lake. Alta.
Prince Albert, Sask.
Windsor, Ont.
Vancouver, B.C.
St. Catharines, Ont.
Hamilton, Ont.
Cap de la Madeleine, P.Q.
Goderich, Ont.
St. Eugene, Ont.
Portage la Prairie, Man.
Regina, Sask.
Edmonton, Alta.
Stanley, N.S.
Boundary Bay, B.C.
Relief-Langley, B.C.
Virden, Man.
Relief-Hargrave, Man.
Oshawa, Ont.
Relief-Whitby, Ont.
Chatham, N.B.
Quebec City, P.Q.
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Air Navigation Schools Rivers, Man.
Pennfield Ridge, N.B.
Air Observer Schools MaJton, Ont.
Edmonton, Alta.
Regina, Sask.
London, Ont.
Winnipeg, Man.
Prince Albert, Sask.
Portage la Prairie, Man.
Quebec City, P.Q.
St. Johns, P.Q.
Chatham, N.B.
Bombing and Gunnery Schools Jarvis, Ont.
Mossbank, Sask.
Macdonald, Man.
Fingal, Ont.
Dafoe, Sask.
Mountain View, Ont.
Paulson, Man.
Lethbridge, Alta.
Mont Joli, P.Q.
Service Flying Training Schools Camp Borden, Ont.
Relief No. 1

Edenvale, Ont.
Relief No. 2-Alliston, Ont.
Ottawa, Ont.
Relief No. 1-Pendleton, Ont.
Relief No. 2-Edwards, Ont.
Calgary, Alta. (Currie barracks)
Relief No. 1-Shepard, Alta. Saskatoon, Sask.
Relief No. 1-Vanseoy, Sask.
Relief No. 2

Osier, Sask.
Brantford, Ont.
Relief No. 1-Burtch, Ont.
Dunnville, Ont.
Relief No. 1-Welland, Ont.
Maoleod, Alta.
Relief No. 1-Granum, Alta.
Moncton, N.B.
Relief No. 1-Seoudouc, N.B.
Relief No. 2-Salisbury, N.B. Summerside, P.E.I.
Relief No. 1-Mount Pleasant, P.E.I. Relief No. 2-Wellington, P.E.I. Dauphin, Man.
Relief No. 1-North Junction, Man. Relief No. 2-Valley River, Man. Yorkton, Sask.
Relief No. 1-Sturdee, Sask.
Relief No. 2-Rhein, Sask.
Brandon, Man.
Relief No. 1-Chater, Man.
Relief No. 2-Douglas, Man.
St. Hubert, P.Q.
Relief No. 1-St. Johns, P.Q.
Relief No. 2-Farnham, P.Q.
Aylmer, Ont.
Relief No. 1-St. Thomas, Ont. Claresholm, Alta.
Relief No. 1-Woodhouse, Alta. Hagersville, Ont.
Relief No. 1-Kohler, Ont.
Central Flying School Trenton, Ont.
Relief No. 1

Mohawk, Ont.
Wireless Schools Montreal, P.Q.
Calgary, Alta.
Winnipeg, Man.
Guelph, Ont.
TMr. Power.]
Initial Training Schools Toronto, Ont.
Regina, Sask.
Victoriaville, P.Q.
Edmonton, Alta.
Belleville, Ont.
Saskatoon, Sask.
Technical Training School St. Thomas, Ont.
Technical Detachments Toronto, Ont.
Montreal, P.Q.
Composite Training School Trenton, Ont.
School of Aeronautical Engineering Montreal, P.Q.
Holding Unit Moncton, N.B.
Air Armament School Mountain View, Ont.
Depots
Trenton, Ont.
Winnipeg, Man.
St. Johns, P.Q.
Calgary, Alta.
Toronto, Ont.
Montreal, P.Q.
Ottawa, Ont.
Brandon, Man.
Edmonton, Alta.
Quebec, P.Q.
Lachine, P.Q.
Camp Borden, Ont.
Regina, Sask.
Halifax, N.S.
Roekcliffe, Ont.
By that system we shall avoid the necessity of further expenditures in the building of aerodromes. We upgraded our output by what is known as overbearing-that is, taking on more pupils. In some instances we have done this because the courses have been lengthened. Where we had a ten-week course we have made it a fourteen-week course. But in order that there be no interference with output we have taken on more pupils. Therefore in the long run the final result is the same.
As time has gone on we have been changing the syllabus. We must keep up to date with the progress of the war and with science. At one time the call was all for fighters. At the present time there is a very special call for observers and bombers. Accordingly we must meet the difficulties as they come. We must keep our schools up to date, so that we may be able to develop the men who are most required at a given time. It has been necessary to increase the number of manning depots and initial training schools to a considerable degree over that which was anticipated at the beginning.
With the construction of schools, new construction at schools already in existence, new projects in the way of reserve fields, and new buildings for auxiliary services, such as

The War-Air Services-Mr. Power
manning depots, embarkation depots and so on, our works and buildings branch has been as busy this summer as it was in 1940. Probably the expenditure is just as great.
Apart from the joint air training plan schools themselves, there are now operating in Canada other schools and establishments manned by the Royal Air Force personnel, and utilized primarily for the training of Royal Air Force pupils.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before the minister leaves the joint plan, would he be good enough to indicate to what extent the sister dominions are utilizing the plan, having regard to what the previous arrangement was? Are they using our facilities to an increased extent, or is that use decreasing? Will it eventually fade away?


Charles Gavan Power: I am unable to say whether or not the utilization by our partners will fade away. I was coming to that later on. I might say now, however, that there is a proposal for the continuance after 1943 of the joint air training plan. As a matter of fact that was one of the matters I took up when I was on the other side. As to whether Australia and New Zealand will continue on the same basis, or whether we will carry on on a different financial basis, or whether they would prefer to do their own training, in view of the fact that perhaps to a considerable extent they have now developed their own schools, I am not in a position to say.
To all intents and purposes, they have kept up their contribution of air crew personnel. It has not been diminished. When in certain instances we increased the number I believe some of our sister dominions said that they would not send them all the way to Canada, but would send some direct, instead. But they have lived up to their commitments fully, and in an entirely satisfactory way. May I point out further that the personnel they have sent us has been most excellent and outstanding in our schools. Australian and New Zealand pupils have really made names for themselves in the way of discipline and energy, and the enthusiasm they show in their work.
Apart from these joint training plan schools there are a number of schools manned by Royal Air Force personnel and utilized for the purpose of training Royal Air Force pupils. I have no authority from the United Kingdom officials to give information respecting the location of these schools, the number of personnel or pupils. I can say, however, that these courses are under the control and administration of the Royal Canadian Air Force, and they constitute a most important addition both in schools and in the responsibilities of the department.
Then, the Canadian government facilities have been used in connection with the selection of sites for those schools, the development of aerodromes, and the construction of buildings and runways. All projects at present contemplated-and I say this advisedly-are being proceeded with expeditiously. The additional burdens placed upon the various departments, as well as the Royal Canadian Air Force, have been met without difficulty. The estimated cost of the transfer school policy to March 31, 1942, is $105,000,000. That is only an estimate, and it is on a repayment basis.
I return now to the matter of equipment in our own school. We have at least twice as many aircraft as we had last year, and they are coming in fast. But our needs are much greater than they were. The ministry of supply are honouring their commitments, but we are asking for more, and will continue to ask for more. It is a question of balance. There is no good in extending in one direction without extending in others at the same time, so that a man's training can be carried right through. Some types of aircraft are harder to get than others. They must have special qualities and performance. This applies particularly to the training aircraft in the bombing and gunnery schools.
The equipment in kind is being received from the United Kingdom. We are experimenting, substituting and modifying, and I hope-in fact I am sure-that it will be possible to modify certain types of aircraft built in Canada under the Department of Munitions and Supply so as to substitute them for those most difficult to get from the other side. I believe we shall get what we need, and if we do we shall be able to increase considerably our output of a certain type of pupils to which we are not at all committed. I refer to pupils such as the straight air gunners-tail-end-Charleys, they call them. They are the men who sit at the tail-end of the bombing planes, with all heaven above and all hell below. We could train many of these men. They require clear grit; they must have nerves of steel, and a clear eye. We have in Canada men of that kind we could train, when we get the necessary extra aircraft to do it.
I turn now to overhaul. Last year it was a headache; this year it is arthritis, phlebitis, St. Vitus dance and everything else put together. The cause of the disease is a shortage of spares. There is a world shortage of spares, and particularly of engines. Naturally it arises from the urgent demand for engines for operational aircraft. The planes we use in our bombing and gunnery schools are Fairey Battle planes powered with Merlin engines. Nothing less powerful than the Merlin engine will do.
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We are carrying on thousands of hours of bombing, and our demands for spares are enormous and probably unprecedented.
In the matter of supplies of these Battle and Merlin engines we are almost entirely in the hands of the authorities overseas. They know our needs, and they must be the final judges of where supplies can best be used. It must be remembered that they have responsibilities in south Africa, Rhodesia, Australia and other parts of the world. What spares can be made here we will make, but there are limits in that regard. It is a difficult art, calling for special tools which may be needed elsewhere. The answer is to extemporize, substitute and multiply. We are doing all this. So far there has been no hold-up, and we hope there will not be. But I do not wish to disguise from the committee that the going is pretty tough, and that we shall have a hard time to keep those planes in the air.
I turn now to output of trained pilots, observers, wireless air gunners and gunners. The steady stream of pilots is more than we had hoped. It is running smoothly, and they are turning out in greater numbers than we expected when the plan was conceived. We have a right to be proud that we have gone far beyond our original plan. Anyone who has been overseas knows that our boys are there. They are not there in speeches; they are not there in the papers, but they are there in bombers, there at their stations, and there over Germany every night. They are there in Tripoli and Libya and Russia-and everywhere. Wherever the Royal Air Force is, there they are.
Last year someone asked in the house what the position was, and I said we would be judged by the results of our plans. I can say now that that hon. member need not ask me; he could ask Hitler. Hitler knows, and he is going to know more and more, as this war goes on. The other answer is to read the daily press. Only this week in flaming headlines in all the press of Canada there was an account of the daring and successful attack of Royal Canadian Air Force squadrons on German shipping. That took place under the nose of the German navy, under the guns of the garrisons of occupied France and in the teeth of the German air force itself. There is no doubt that we can say that the Royal Canadian Air Force pupil graduates are coming into their own. There were those who jeered when we began eighteen months ago with the first class of 168 men and said that we could not win wars on schedule. That class of 168 men has been multiplied one-hundredfold, and to-day I think we can safely say that the empire training scheme has won its wings.

Overseas we have sixteen squadrons in active operation while one was recently dispatched to the middle east. They are of all types and categories, fighter, night fighter, army cooperation, bomber and so on. Besides that, thousands of our men are in the Royal Air Force wherever the Royal Air Force is fighting. We have also supplied radio mechanics and ground crews. As yet we have not sufficient ground crews, but we are sending them over all the time and before long we expect to equip the twenty-five Royal Canadian Air Force squadrons there now and whatever squadrons we may be able to send over later with our own ground crews.
In view of this active participation of the Royal Canadian Air Force it has been thought advisable to issue a kind of communique at intervals, perhaps irregular, indicating to the Canadian people just what their own boys in the air force are doing. I have the first of these official communiques which will be released to the press to-morrow, and perhaps it might be interesting to hon. members if I were to read it. It reads:
Daylight sweeps by fighter aircraft, escort duties during bombing raids on northern France, heavy night attacks on German territory and large-scale activities against enemy shipping have been included in recent activities of squadrons of the Royal Canadian Air Force overseas.
During offensive sweeps over nazi held territory, one Royal Canadian Air Force fighter squadron accounted for three Messerschmitt 109's and damaged a fourth. Another squadron, acting as escort for formations of Blenheim bombers in a successful raid on Mazingarbe, northern France, destroyed two enemy aircraft which tried to interfere. Credit for these two victories went to Pilot Officer G. McClusky of Sudbury and Sergeant G. D. Robertson of 3 Lamport avenue, Toronto.
In night fighting operations over Britain, a Royal Canadian Air Force night fighter squadron, commanded by Wing Commander D. G. Morris, Oakville, Ontario, destroyed three enemy raiders and damaged a fourth.
The three aircraft destroyed, a Junkers 88, Dornier 17 and Heinkel 111, were all shot down by Wing Commander Morris himself, two of them within half an hour on one night. The Dornier blew- up in the air when hit by cannon fire from the wing commander's guns, and pieces of it struck his own aircraft, putting one engine out of action. But he managed to return safely to his base on the remaining motor.
Wing Commander Morris has been awarded the distinguished flying cross and his observer, Sergeant Rix, has received the distinguished flying medal. Credit for damaging the fourth raider is given Flight Lieutenant F. W. Hillock, 14 Walmsley boulevard, Toronto, and his observer, Sergeant L. G. Bell of Montreal.
A bomber squadron of the Royal Canadian Air Force took part in heavy raids on Stettine, Hamburg, Essen and Ostend, successfully bombing the targets allotted to it. Three veteran crews of this squadron were assigned to participate in a severe raid on Bavaria and reported that the target had been badly damaged.

The War-Air Services-Mr. Power
In recent operations against enemy convoys oil the coasts of northern France, Holland and Denmark, a Royal Canadian Air Force squadron of the coastal command scored direct hits on supply ships and tankers.
Wing Commander H. M. Tyles, commander of the squadron, scored direct hits on at least three occasions and holds the high score in his squadron. Pilot Officer Robert Wudds, of Toronto, is credited with direct hits, along with Flight Lieutenant W. A. Anderson, 12 Whitehall apartments, Osborne street, Winnipeg, and Sergeant Pilot J. K. Abbott of Toronto.
Two Royal Canadian Air Force squadrons cooperated with the imperial and Canadian armies in the recent manoeuvres, recognized as the most extensive in the history of the British army.
As time goes on and as they are prepared, it is our intention to issue similar communiques to the Canadian press.
I come now to a discussion of my trip overseas last summer. The purpose of my trip was to see and hear from our partners in the joint air training plan just how our boys were shaping up, to see the boys themselves, and as the plan was in full operation to ascertain what modifications and improvements could be made, particularly what improvements could be made in Canada. I stressed particularly the lot of our graduates, those men who are not formed into Royal Canadian Air Force squadrons. A vast majority of them are attached to the Royal Air Force.
We have taken the very cream of the youth of Canada. We have taken these youths from our schools, our colleges and our universities. I think these men are the most truly Canadian body that exists anywhere in the world. I would say that as a body they are more Canadian than even this House of Commons. There has been no great tide of immigration from the other side, from Great Britain or anywhere else, during the past twenty-five years. These boys are mainly third, fourth and fifth generation Canadians, bred in Canada, schooled in Canadian schools and with an intensely Canadian viewpoint. Their viewpoint is far removed from that of those of us who are perhaps more closely connected with the old land. They are more Canadian by far than was the Canadian army in the last war, in which was a large proportion of men bom on the other side of the water. As I say, these men have the Canadian viewpoint, if it exists anywhere. They are the future leaders of this country and the destiny of Canada will some day be in their hands. Therefore, it behooves us, or any government that takes its duties seriously, to see to it that these men do not return from overseas with the same sense of disappointment, disillusionment and discontent as did the men who returned from the last war.
Perhaps it would have been better if we had been able to keep them together as Canadians, but the circumstances were such that we had to sacrifice national pride to eificiency and expedition. In order to produce more of them more quickly and get them into the fighting line, we placed them in a joint pool with the other young men of the empire.
I do not think that will do them any harm. There has been no difficulty in getting them to fight alongside other men of the empire. The cause is such and the enemy is such that all sons of freedom can very well combine to fight against this common enemy. But the boys themselves, and their parents as well, like to think that they are with pals, and it was in order to keep them together as much as possible, whether in Canadian or British formations, that I made representations to the British government. May I say at once that there was not the slightest hesitation or reluctance on their part. To ask was to receive and every suggestion met with immediate and enthusiastic acquiscence.
I have been asked on many occasions since my return what we had to say about the quality of our output, and that was the first question I placed before the air ministry. And here is the answer-textually, no flattery, no encomiums-this was a business meeting:
The air member for training paid a warm tribute to the high personal quality of Canadian trainees. He mentioned that there had been many factors which might have had an adverse effect on the quality of the output from the training scheme as it arrived in the United Kingdom.
The scheme was one of great magnitude, involving much initial preparation. Some of the staffs available were necessarily inexperienced, essential equipment oould not be supplied and after completion of basic training there were inevitably gaps during voyage and waiting periods. Furthermore, on account of the need for increased output the amount of training had been reduced to the bare minimum. He expressed his gratitude for the valuable assistance rendered by Canada in increasing the output during the difficult period through which we had been passing. There were factors such as acclimatization in the United Kingdom, map reading difficulties, different conditions of visibility and the "blackout" which might have been expected to make it necessary to give the
J.A.T.P. pupils a lengthened course of training at operational training units. In spite of these factors, the quality of the training given in Canada and the keenness of the pupils had been such as to enable them to complete their operational training within the normal length of course.
Another matter discussed was the status of Canadians in the Royal Air Force, particularly those below commissioned rank. The Canadian government has a moral responsibility with regard to the general conditions and welfare of these men, to see that they should not
4144	COMMONS
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be too widely dispersed and that they should have ready access to Canadian authority. These points were understood and agreed to, and to implement that policy the Royal Air Force very gladly invited the Royal Canadian Air Force to send over its own officers to work in the Royal Air Force in the posting branch, in records, in the pay office and in any other departments in which there might be contact with Canadian air crews or Canadian groups. They will also take our officers into their higher commands as soon as we can spare them. We have pointed out to the Royal Air Force headquarters in London that it is our desire to keep in closer touch with our people wherever they may be, and only this week we have sent overseas as air officer in chief, Air Vice-Marshal Edwards who has been in the closest touch with our graduates here. He knows our men and their needs and will look after their interests.
There were other matters dealt with, legal questions arising out of the discussion initiated by my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) with regard to the Visiting Forces Act, questions with respect to courts martial, and others. Perhaps the committee is not aware of the fact that during the last war Australia-perhaps New Zealand, but certainly Australia-provided by legislation that courts martial involving sentence of death should not be passed by any but their own people. I have arranged, and I think the army is doing the same thing, that no sentence of a court martial involving dismissal, cashiering, penal servitude or sentence of death may be passed without its being sent to Canada for confirmation. That is with regard to the Royal Canadian Air Force and it applies to Canadian graduates who are now serving in the Royal Air Force in that the officers commanding will have no warrant to execute these sentences without reference to the Canadian government.
We also arranged for a better system of commissioning our graduates overseas in that there will be Canadian representation, a Canadian officer on all 'boards making selection of Canadian officers, and the chief air officer commanding overseas has been delegated authority, so that there will be no delay, to approve these appointments on probation and to cable the names over here.
We also took up the question of granting more commissions to graduates of wireless schools and air gunners. Whereas at one time commissions were not granted at all to wireless operators' or gunners, and then subsequently a quota of 2 per cent was established, it has now been agreed that 10 per cent of the output upon completing training will receive commissioned rank, and a further 10 per cent after a

certain amount of operational experience, and with regard to air gunners it has been agreed that 5 per cent shall be given commissioned rank on completion of training, and a further 15 per cent after a period of operational experience.
A number of other questions were taken up affecting the welfare of the men, as well as questions of training, syllabus and administration, and these were all dealt with in so far as we are concerned in a most satisfactory manner.
As time goes on, more and more Canadians will be grouped together in squadrons, at stations, in groups and in commands, and our men will assume higher and higher responsibilities.
There was also taken up the question of the continuation of the air training plan after April, 1943. As I have just said in answer to a question by my hon. friend the leader of the opposition, the matter was initiated then and it is now being taken up actively and will be discussed, I believe, within the next two or three weeks. Meanwhile I may say for the information of the committee that we are taking appropriate action for the purchase of aircraft and such equipment as may be required because we are convinced that so long as this war lasts, the air training scheme in some form or other, whether by training under our present system or otherwise, will go on, and therefore we are making arrangements for the provision of aircraft which will come in after 1943.
There is little else I have to say with respect to my visit. I saw the boys. I was impressed by their morale, their gayety, their brave comradeship, their sportsmanship and their keenness to get at their job. I do not know that there is anything of particular interest for me to tell the committee with respect to my visits to the different stations. I saw a very large proportion of the stations where our Canadians were congregated in any degree, and all I can say is that I hope we were in some manner successful, not in raising their morale, because that is not needed, but in impressing on our boys that the people of Canada were back of them right through to the end. There are many of them, and there will be many times more-how many I am not permitted to say. I can give the committee no figures, no statistics. I do not need to, because their deeds are written large across the blazing skies of Africa, Europe and Asia; they are being seared into the minds of the people of Germany and are being written gloriously into the pages of the history of Canada and the empire, Unfortunately they are being written, too, on the hearts of the afflicted parents of these boys

The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley
who become casualties. There is little I can say to alleviate their grief, and I can promise no relief except this, that those who say the Canadian people cannot take it do not know whereof they speak. May I say that in the communications received from the afflicted parents there is a note of pride, of nobility, of patience and of strength. For the moment it is these individuals who feel the blow. It will be only after this accursed conflict has been liquidated and we have attempted to take stock of our national assets, when we shall require in our post-war struggle for existence in a newer world all the strength of will and brain inherent in our national character, that the Canadian people will be aware of the grievous blow and of the sacrifice which it has suffered through being deprived of the most noble, the most brilliant and the most able young men of this generation.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The principal part of my speech will be an explanation of the government's price ceiling policy, but before I come to that there are a few matters which may be of interest to members of the committee.
It will be recalled that in the budget it was indicated that total war expenditures would amount to something between $1,300,000,000 already appropriated for this fiscal year and the $1,450,000,000 which was the total of the departmental estimates of their requirements. This war expenditure which we refer to as the direct war expenditure of the dominion was to be in addition to the sums which it would be necessary to provide in order to enable Great Britain to purchase foodstuffs, raw materials and munitions of war in Canada. The net amount estimated to be required for this purpose for the present fiscal year was from $800,000,000 to $900,000,000. In addition to these two purposes, that is the direct war expenditure of Canada and the assistance to Great Britain, there was another purpose for which it was necessary to provide money, namely, the non-war expenditure of the government. Altogether the three amounts- direct war expenditures of the government, assistance to Great Britain, and non-war expenditures-were estimated to amount to $2,700,000,000 or $2,800,000,000, and that is the figure which I have consistently placed before parliament and before the public in any speeches which I have made upon the financial requirements of the government for the present fiscal year.
Naturally, the task of raising $2,700,000,000 or $2,800,000,000 from the people of Canada by taxes and loans is a very considerable one.
With regard to the way in which our estimates have worked out, I may say that
the actual war expenditures for the first half of the fiscal year amounted to about $496,000,000. This half of the fiscal year, however, included April, which is really only about half a month from the point of view of expenditures, because much of the disbursement in that month is chargeable to the preceding fiscal year. The rate of war expenditure has been rising and is expected to rise rapidly in the second half of the year. At present I can only express the view that we shall exceed the appropriation of $1,300,000,000, but it is still too far from the end of the fiscal year to make a precise estimate of how much that excess will be. In the new session of parliament I shall have occasion to make a revised estimate.
I have been speaking about the expenditure. With regard to the revenue, I estimated in the budget that the revenue which would be obtained during the present fiscal year would be $1,400,000,000; and in some public speeches which I have made I have said it would appear that this would be exceeded, that the figure would be nearer $1,500,000,000. Always, when I have used this figure, surprise, amounting almost to incredulity, has been apparent in the faces of those to whom I was speaking, on account of the magnitude of the sum that we are raising in taxation and otherwise by way of revenue-such as post office revenue -from the Canadian people, but I am not in a position to state here with any definiteness whether the amount will be $1,400,000,000 or $1,500,000,000. No useful purpose would be served by making an estimate now; it will be only a few months before we shall know, and know exactly, but at any rate the amount received by way of revenue will be of that order.
Perhaps a striking fact about our revenues this year is this, that the tax revenues up to yesterday, with almost five months of the fiscal year yet to come, have exceeded the total tax revenue for all of last fiscal year by over $17,000,000. For the first half of the fiscal year, that is up to September 30, total revenues amounted to $696,000,000, which was $313,000,000 higher than the revenues for the same period of last year, and some $18,000,000 higher than our total expenditures for that period, excluding of course our assistance to Britain.
I think, Mr. Chairman, that suffices for a rapid and concise presentation of the revenue and expenditure position of the dominion. If there are any questions which occur to any hon. members, I shall try at a later stage to answer them.
There is another matter about which I should say something, and that is the victory
The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley

loan. That was a major financial operation, and one the results of which have not been presented to the house. The victory loan campaign was in progress when the house adjourned in June. Hon members will recall the extent and nature of the campaign. A nationwide organization was set up to promote the sale of victory bonds. The objective was at least $600,000,000. The campaign met with a very gratifying response from the Canadian people, a response which was a credit to the selling organization and a credit to Mr. Spinney, general manager of the bank of Montreal, who headed the organization. It was also a credit to the people of Canada who subscribed for bonds to an amount substantially greater than the amount of the objective which was set.
I shall now present to the committee and place on Hansard the final figures of the results of the victory loan campaign.
Total number of subscribers		968,259
I should like to call the attention of hon. members to that figure. It means that there was a very wide distribution of those bonds. In some provinces one person out of every eight or thereabouts of the population bought a victory bond of some kind. The average is
very satisfactory indeed.
Total amount of subscriptions	 $836,820,250
Total cash subscriptions	 730,376,250
Total conversion subscriptions		106,444,000
Number of $ 50 subscriptions = 416,511 Number of $100 subscriptions = 244,771 Number of subscriptions of more than $100 but not more than $500	= 199,764
While, of course, the victory loan was the most spectacular financial event of recent months, and the main source of our borrowed funds, I should like to emphasize the importance of our continued, systematic borrowing by means of the sale of war savings certificates. The war savings organization has been operating continuously since it was established in May, 1940, and is now bringing in a steady stream of funds. It will be recalled that in February of this year an intensive campaign was conducted to increase the amount being subscribed in war savings. This campaign succeeded in bringing the monthly rate subscriptions up to the objective, but the high figures were not maintained in later months owing to the falling off in the size and number of single subscriptions. The more valuable, regular subscriptions under the payroll plan and other systematic pledge plans have continued to expand. In recent weeks another intensive campaign is being carried out, with the assistance of about forty thousand voluntary workers, for the purpose of increasing very substantially the amount of savings by

these systematic methods. The activity this fall has been decentralized into the hands of provincial and local organizations, and objectives have been set for communities in terms of specific items of war supplies or weapons. It is hoped that this intensive campaign will increase the rate of subscriptions from its average level so far this year of $83,000,000 a year to a rate of at least $120,000,000 a year.
I should like to take this opportunity to express the appreciation of the government to the thousands of Canadians who are helping us with such patience and enthusiasm in this unexciting but very important work.
I come now to a brief statement of our aid to Britain. During recent months this country has continued to provide financial assistance on a large scale to the British government in order to enable Britain to obtain essential supplies she requires from Canada. Members may recall that in the budget speech I stated that Britain's total deficit of Canadian dollars from the beginning of the war up to March 31 last had been about $795,000,000, of which $250,000,000 had been met by transfer of gold, later transferred by us to the United States; $337,000,000 had been met by the repatriation of Canadian securities and other assets, through government agencies and otherwise, while the balance of $208,000,000 had been met by the accumulation by Canada of sterling balances.
In the seven months from that date to October 31 last, the amount of the British deficit has been $613,000,000. By the repatriation of its own securities held in Britain, the dominion government provided about $135,000,000 of this, while sales of other British-owned Canadian securities and other capital items accounted for about $40,000,000. The remainder, $438,000,000, much the largest part of the deficit, was provided by the dominion government in return for sterling balances placed to its credit in London and simply left there to accumulate. The total of these sterling balances on October 31 was the equivalent of about $655,000,000.
In order to enable the foreign exchange control board to accumulate sterling in this way, it was necessary to increase the fund at its disposal. This was done in July by making advances totalling $400,000,000 to the exchange fund. These advances have been charged to the consolidated revenue fund in accordance with section 3 of the War Appropriation Act passed earlier this session.
I should like to say a word about the negotiations with the provinces. The committee will recall the offer made to the provinces in the budget of last April. The leader of the opposition has indicated that he would like me to inform the committee as

The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley
to the stage which negotiations with the provinces have reached. All the provinces have indicated their interest in the offer and their willingness to discuss it with the dominion. Before this discussion could take place it was necessary that our auditors examine the books of the provinces and prepare reports on a uniform and comparable basis. This was done during the summer and early fall. Then the representatives of each of the provinces came to Ottawa and I had conferences with them, and discussed with them terms and provisions which might appropriately be included in agreements to be entered into between the provinces and the dominion.
While it cannot be considered with strictness that any province is committed to enter into an agreement with the dominion, the indications are that agreements will probably be reached with all the provinces within the next few weeks. The problem of the New Brunswick municipalities, in which the leader of the opposition is particularly interested, has been given much consideration and, it is hoped, can be satisfactorily solved. Problems somewhat similar have appeared in other parts of the dominion, and it is expected that a satisfactory solution of these too will be found. I do not think I should say anything more about that. They are not solved yet, and we have not decided and cannot decide, until certain other conferences are held and certain other discussions take place, exactly what we shall do about these matters.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is the minister proposing to meet a committee of the union of municipalities from New Brunswick?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I am meeting the premier and he is having representatives of the municipalities with him.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is the same thing.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The problem presented by the municipalities is only one of a large number of difficulties which have presented themselves as the conferences have proceeded. There are a great many intricacies and difficulties in points of detail which require patience and take a great deal of time, if results fair to all governments are to be obtained.
I come now to a matter which will take some time, and perhaps I had better ask that it be called six o'clock.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Chairman, at six o'clock I stated that I was coming to a division in my speech and would be taking up another subject at eight o'clock. The subject to which I referred was the price-ceiling policy adopted by the government. This policy has been dealt with in a broadcast by the Prime Minister to the Canadian people, and it will not be possible for me to add very much, in my remarks to the committee to-night, to what the Prime Minister said in that speech. The leader of the opposition, however, invited the Minister of Finance to make some further explanation of certain phases of the priceceiling policy to the committee when that matter was reached, and I thought it might not be inappropriate if I should tell the committee in very plain and simple language just why the pride-ceiling policy was recommended to the government by myself and why it was adopted by the government.
This policy was not based on any fine-spun theories or abstract considerations; it was based upon the harsh necessities of the moment. Consider what was happening. I have before me a table showing the rise in the price level from August, 1939, to October, 1941. I shall place this table on Hansard, but before I do so I think I should point out to the committee some of the important features of the table.
Taking the average of 1935-39 as the base, and calling that 100, the index figure of cost of living for August, 1939, before the war began, was 100-8. In November, 1939, after three months, it was 103-8. In February, after six months, it was 103-8. In August, 1940, after one year, it was 105-9. In February, 1941, after eighteen months, it was 108-2.
For the following months the figures were as follows:
March, 1941	 108-2
April, 1941	 108-6
May, 1941	 109-4
June, 1941	 110-5
July, 1941	 111-9
August, 1941	 113-7
September, 1941	 114-7
October, 1941	 115-5
In October the cost of living index figure was 14-6 per cent above what it was in August, 1939. The increase in the last six months was 6-9 points of the index. The increase in the index of the cost of food from August, 1939, to August, 1941, was 23-9 and for the last six months 13-1 points, indicating that the very substantial increases in the cost of food were largely responsible for the less
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Finance-Mr. Ilsley

substantial but nevertheless substantial increases in the cost of living index. Of the 12-8 per cent increase in the total index from August, 1939, to August, 1941, the increased cost of food accounted for more than 53 per cent of the change.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Would the minister indicate just what items are taken into consideration in figuring the cost?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not think I can stop to do that; I have not the material here; it would be a long story and involve me and the committee in a great deal of detail. I think answers to questions like that should be reserved for a later stage.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If I may interrupt, does it indicate that the average of 1935-39 which the minister takes as the base was a high price level in food, or was that not a very low level?


James Lorimer Ilsley: That was a low price level.


Richard Burpee Hanson: So that an increase of 15 to 20 per cent would not necessarily indicate a high price level?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Not necessarily. It indicated a fairly rapid rise towards the latter part of the period.
The extent of the rise itself perhaps was not the most serious feature of the situation. The most serious feature was that there were certain obviously inflationary forces at work in the country. I am not an economist and I am certainly not a "brain-truster", to use the language of hon. gentlemen opposite-


Richard Burpee Hanson: For- lack of a better word.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: They are not in the house.


James Lorimer Ilsley: -and probably I shall oversimplify somewhat my explanation of the inflationary forces. But there is no doubt that when the resources and labour of the country are pretty fully used, when we reach a stage of full employment, and are making more and more war materials, devoting a larger and larger proportion of our human and material resources to the production of war equipment and war materials, there is no doubt that inflationary forces of a very powerful type are at work. Now this is the way in which Mr. Henderson, head of the office of price administration and civilian supply, explained the matter. Perhaps he oversimplified it too, but it is well to make these matters as simple as possible, and essentially this is correct: if the total work done by the people of the nation is represented by eight hours, and three hours of that work is devoted to war purposes and only five hours to the produc-

tion of peace-time goods, civilian supplies, then there are eight hours' wages to be spent on the product of five hours' labour. Therefore, unless something is done to channel back the wages for the other three hours, there is going to be such a disparity between purchasing power and what there is to be purchased that there will be a most powerful upward pressure on prices.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is, freer buying.


James Lorimer Ilsley: There is far more money to spend, and less to spend it on. As we devote more and more of our goods to war purposes, that condition develops. Those are the essentials of the situation in a war such as this, and at a time when we are making such' enormous quantities of goods. Surely the committee was impressed by the speech of my colleague the Minister of Munitions and Supply in which he showed the colossal output we now have, and indicated that it would be still larger in the future.
One will see at once that, unless curbed, forces will push the price levels up and up and up. How can that be stopped? Since the beginning of the war we have pursued a severe taxation policy. We have tried to tax as much as possible of the purchasing power back into the exchequer. We have gone all across the country and combed it for small subscriptions to war savings certificates. We have sold bonds to the people. In these ways, namely by taxing and by borrowing, we have tried to get back from the people a large amount of this purchasing power. We believed that this was a right policy and we believed that it was anti-inflationary. To a large extent it is.
But we cannot do enough in that way. The amounts we are getting, as the requirements grow, are not sufficient. As the two hours out of the eight becomes three hours, and as the three hours becomes four hours, it becomes impossible adequately to meet the situation by taxation and borrowing. We might possibly be able to do it if we placed oppressively high taxes on the people.
I have in mind, by way of example, a national defence tax of, say 20 per cent, instead of 5 per cent, or something like that. But a tax of that kind would be so inequitable, and the variation in individual circumstances would be so great, that we would have all kinds of outcries, and justifiably so, on account of the harshness and inequality of a taxation policy of that kind. It does not help the situation much to say, "Change it into a compulsory saving policy; pay back part of

The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley
the taxes at the end of the war", because for the moment it is just as harsh and inequitable, and just as hard to bear.
Therefore in this war, no matter what the course has been in previous wars, so far as I know all countries have come to the conclusion that they must resort to direct measures of limitation and control of production, and price control. We had decided, of course, that we had to do the same thing in Canada. We have had certain selected price controls in force since shortly after the outbreak of the war.
Neither the house nor the country will accept a policy such as this price-ceiling policy, unless they are thoroughly convinced of the evils and the dangers of inflation. I have refrained from arguing that inflation is bad, because I can find no one to disagree with me. I have listened to the social credit group. We have argued that their policies are inflationary. The speakers in that group, to a man, do not meet that argument by saying, "What of it? They are inflationary, but it is a good thing." No, they do not say that; they deny that their policies are inflationary. They admit, and properly so, that inflation is a bad thing, and they argue that their policies are not inflationary.
Coming to the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation we find that to a man they argue against inflation. The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis), who made such a good speech the other day, never for a moment in the labour circles in which he moves, or in or out of this house, would argue in favour of inflation. He knows that inflation is disastrous to labour. The same could be demonstrated without any trouble at all in so far as its effects on agriculture are concerned.
Then, we find that the Conservative group admit and contend that inflation is a bad thing, and the same is true of the members of the party to which I belong. But sometimes I think that this ready acceptance of a principle leads us to forget the realities of the situation.
Now, looking at the matter from other than the theoretical point of view, looking at it from the point of view of governmental finance, let us consider what would happen if the price levels were allowed to go up and up and up in an uncontrolled fashion. Last spring I asked the house for a vote of $1,300,000,000 for war purposes. The house voted that sum. Then, in addition we had to have money for non-war purposes. I believe the amount was in the neighbourhood of $500,000,000. In addition, we had to raise money required for assistance to Great Britain, to the amount of $900,000,000,
making $2,700,000,000 or $2,800,000,000 in all. When I come to the house next spring, perhaps in the early months of the year, it may be that the figures I shall present will be higher than that. It may be-and I do not know, because the estimates are not yet prepared-that instead of being obliged to raise $2,800,000,000, as we are doing this year, and instead of being obliged to spend $2,800,000,000 as we are likely to have to do in this fiscal year, we might have to spend, let us say, $3,000,000,000. It is, I should think, certain to be that, perhaps a great deal more than that. Let us say that the price level rises 20 points, or 20 per cent- and the price level did rise 20 points, or just about 20 per cent, in the third year of the last war. I have figures here to show what happened at that time. That condition makes it necessary for me to obtain another $600,000,000 somewhere. I do not know anywhere to get it, except by taxing the people, borrowing from the people or creating it. Borrowing from the Bank of Canada would be the equivalent of creating it. We have, so far as I know, to do one of those three things.
I do not think taxation will stand indefinite expansion. I do not believe that borrowing can be carried on indefinitely, because when the price level is rising rapidly and the value of the dollar is going down we are going to meet quite a bit of resistance from the people of the country who may be afraid that if that process continues they will be paying in good money and getting out bad. We are determined that this will not occur. We must do that in order to keep faith with the people who lend money to the government. Therefore we are going to have difficulties if we create money. If we borrow it from our own bank, which is the equivalent of issuing it, we are going to go very far toward undermining confidence in our currency, and toward pushing up the price level and creating still greater difficulties for ourselves. That very point of view of governmental finance is a question. That is the problem as it presents itself.


Mr. QUELCH:: Would the minister answer
a question?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I wish the hon. member
would not try to tangle me up in social credit questions. There will be time for questions later on.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister is making a good statement. He ought to be allowed to proceed.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The hon. member may question me later. That is the difficulty with which the government is faced, and perhaps the gov-
The War*-Finance-Mr. Ilsley

ernment's difficulties are not of as great importance as the effect a monetary scheme would have on the people.
I said something about the effect on agriculture, but I am not prepared fully to argue it at this time. In fact, if I were to argue all these points fully, my speech would be altogether too long. But in that connection I would refer the committee to what the Prime Minister said in his broadcast, because I believe at that time he put the case very well. This is what he said with respect to agriculture.
Nor is the position of the farmer any happier than that of the wage-earner. The present war is a war of machines. Because of the heavy demands of war on industry, the scarcity of manufactured goods is likely to be greater than the scarcity of farm products. The rise in prices will consequently be unequal, if prices are left to themselves. The things farmers have to buy tend to go up in price, more than the things they have to sell.
Persons in receipt of fixed incomes are in a pitiful condition in a period of rapid price rise or at the end of such a period. Widows and children who are in receipt of the benefits of insurance policies find that the money they have received is not worth anything like what was paid in by the insured. There is an enormous amount of life insurance carried in Canada, and all this would be badly written down by inflation. Other people have annuity contracts with the government and there are many other people with fixed incomes.
The pressure upon the government to relieve these groups becomes terrific. Lobbies of all kinds develop. I am not saying anything about the merits or justifiability of the various pressures that are being exerted upon the government at the present time, but these have resulted on account of the very moderate increase of 14-6 per cent in the price level since the fairly low level in August, 1939. What have we at the moment? We have thousands of representations on behalf of old age pensioners; we have representations on behalf of the dependents of the men in t'he forces; we have representations on behalf of civil servants who are not in the lower grades, which grades already receive a cost of living bonus; we have representations on behalf of superannuated civil servants; we have representations on behalf of those in receipt of disability pensions; we have representations on behalf of those in receipt of war veterans' allowances and we have representations from time to time on behalf of those who have entered into contracts with the government.
Let the price level rise be not 14-6 per cent, as is the case, but 50 per cent or 97 or 98 per cent as it was at the end of the last war, and hon. members will see that many groups are going to find themselves completely out of

line. They will find that their income does not go anywhere at all. The situation will be that many demands will be made upon the treasury. More and more of these groups will seek relief, but some will be left behind. I do not believe we could ever justify making payments out of the treasury to people cashing insurance policies. I do not believe we could justify making payments out of the treasury to persons who had purchased annuities and that kind of thing. A great many groups herei and there throughout the country would find their incomes written down by reason of that price level rise. This matter has been summed up so often that I do not know that it is necessary to go into it again. Mr. Baruch, a citizen of the United States who took a very prominent part in the last war, gave evidence before the banking and currency committee of the House of Representatives, and I should like to read two or three sentences from his submission. He said:
Except for human slaughter and maiming and all that goes with them, inflation is the most destructive of the consequences of war. It might double or more the cost of the war, it imposes the severest hardships on our people and, through inevitable deflation that follows, burdens the future with a constantly increasing debt and a long period of painful and bitter readjustment destroying the confidence of people in themselves and their government, leaving them open to all the old and new isms. Nor is inflation a danger which will hold back and wait for a formal declaration of a shooting war. With payrolls soaring and shortages developing, more money bidding for less goods, the danger of an inflationary price rise is imminent. If it is not taken firmly in hand in time, it may get beyond the possibility of control.
A little later on he said:
The second point I want to raise is that price control is essential if government salaries and appropriations are to have any meaning. What will happen to the teachers, war veterans, social security beneficiaries, policemen, firemen, all the hundreds of thousands of government employees, federal, state, county, and city, if prices are allowed to run wild? Will the federal, state, and city governments advance the wages of these people to meet increased costs of living? Or do they propose to leave them victims of fortuitous circumstances?
Again, with appropriations so much is voted for guns, tanks, and aeroplanes. Before they have been produced prices have jumped and to get the same number of tanks and guns and aeroplanes additional appropriations are needed. Many members of Congress, worried over the size of government expenditures, have been urging economies in non-defence expenditures. I say to them that no action could effect greater savings in the cost of government than to prevent inflation. Billions, 20 per cent or more of all appropriations, can be saved. There is no better form of economy than price control.
Along with those miseries and inequities one finds a certain proportion of the population

The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley
who develop cunning in taking advantage of inflation. These are the inflation profiteers, they are the class of population that hedge against inflation. If they are successful, that is, if they get in at the right time and get out at the right time and make themselves rich out of inflation, they become hated, and the experience in other countries has been that eventually they are deprived of their gains by movements based upon mass indignation. In other words, the result is a state of affairs which divides the country; it is disruptive; it sets citizen against citizen; it destroys morale and unity. Labour, finding that prices are going up, becomes desperate to get more wages to meet the situation, and the result is a large labour turnover. War production is prejudiced and the war effort is injured.
These are some of the things which we have to think about when considering inflation. I am not as much concerned about the afterwar effect of deflation, although it is simply cruelty when that comes, as I am about the effect upon the war effort itself. I do not think any internal development could be more gratifying to the enemy than for this country to tear itself to pieces by inflation. We must believe these things, or we will not accept the somewhat unpalatable medicine of a price ceiling. But believing these things, we will accept a great deal before we will let this condition arise. That is the reason why with great earnestness and emphasis I am placing the possible consequences before the committee. I should like to come back to the Prime Minister's speech. Certain things were pictured very clearly, and this is what he said in one or two paragraphs:
We have heard much in recent weeks about rising prices. They have affected the budget of every family in Canada. We have heard and seen something of the dangers of inflation. But comparatively few of us, I imagine, understand those dangers fully, and what their effect may be upon our lives and our labours. By inflation we mean a rise in prices and costs brought about by abnormal conditions whereby our money is able to buy less of the things we need. Rising prices unless controlled will make it more costly and therefore more difficult to finance the war. Rising prices, unchecked, will spread confusion and uncertainty in industry and trade. They will hinder production .and the proper distribution of supplies. They will make the cost of living rise more rapidly than wages and salaries. The value of savings will be materially lessened. The result would be hardship to nearly every one, and hardship in very unequal measure.
As I say, there has to be price control. All countries have it in varying degrees, but all recognize the necessity of it, and this government would not be worthy of calling itself a government if it just let the situation drift, if it did not take prices in hand.
Indeed the only issue that has developed in countries somewhat similar to our own is as between two alternative policies. One is the policy of selective price control, otherwise known as piecemeal price fixing, and the other is the policy of the price ceiling. The leader of the opposition said: "Why don't we do as they do in England and the United States? Why don't we adopt the first method?"


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not
think I said that.


James Lorimer Ilsley: He did not say it in a
way which was identifying himself with that method.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I was just feeling my way. I do not know any more about it than the minister-a good deal less.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not say that the leader of the opposition argued for piecemeal price fixing. He was simply asking the government to give its reasons for taking one method rather than the other-and I am going to give those reasons to-night. But, in the first place, I want to say briefly just exactly what a price ceiling is and what it involves, and what the whole policy is; for it is a pretty comprehensive policy.
I take it for granted that all members are aware in a general way of the price control policy which has been announced by the government and which is to take effect a week from next Monday. I should like to emphasize, however, that this price control measure is part of a comprehensive plan involving three major elements: (1) the placing of a ceiling on the prices of all goods and rents and services, with certain minor exceptions, based upon the maximum prices prevailing during the four-week period from September 15 to October 11; (2) the stabilizing of wages by the extension of the principles of P.C. 7440 to all industries on a mandatory basis; and (3) the supplementing of agricultural income by the payment of new acreage bonuses in western Canada and by a reduction in the cost of feeds to farmers of eastern Canada.
This programme should be thought of as a whole. Price stability was its objective. We were determined to stop the continued increase in prices that was taking place, and this type of control was, we were convinced, the only effective way in which it could be done. However, it was only possible if we secured stability of wage levels and if we could at the same time assure the farmers of a reasonable level of income.
The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I ask the minister at that point whether the government in considering and enunciating that policy had in mind the unevenness of price levels, especially with respect to foodstuffs?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The unevenness is not as great as the hon. gentleman might think.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is quite great.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That can all very well be taken into consideration, and I will come to that.
I should like to give briefly the reasons why we thought that a universal price ceiling was preferable to selective price control. First, it could be most quickly applied, and as I have already indicated, the rate of increase in the price level in recent months made it imperative that action be taken quickly.
Second, a general price ceiling is non-dis-criminatoiy. Where is the justice of selecting for special treatment fifty or a hundred commodities out of tens of thousands? It has been said that thirty thousand commodities can be found in the mail order catalogues and that the total number of commodities may run as high as between one and two million. I think an estimate has been made of 1,800,000 commodities.
Third, in spite of appearance to the contrary, a general price ceiling involves fewer and less difficult administrative problems. Control of only one part of the economy leaves the forces making for an upward rush of prices to operate solely on the uncontrolled part of the field. Price increases in the uncontrolled commodities would be encouraged in anticipation of and in order to forestall later control. Rises in costs would take place and other disturbances would be set up which would make it necessary constantly to revise the prices fixed in the controlled field and constantly to broaden the controlled area. But this process would never go on rapidly enough to keep up with the inflationary forces that would be at work. Such is the interrelationship of all prices that it would be impossible really to control one group while another group was left uncontrolled.
Fourth, the selective approach would require a thorough investigation of individual industries or commodities and the arbitrary fixing of prices for these individual products, while the ceiling method, subject to minor adjustments from time to time-and of course there will have to be adjustments-accepts the relationship between the prices of various commodities and services determined by supply and demand in the basic .period. Under the selective method the onus would be on the members of the board first to make a thorough 
investigation of individual industries, and then to justify discriminatory action against them if their prices alone were to be fixed. Under the general ceiling method the onus is on the manufacturer or distributor to justify to the board concessions in his favour.
Fifth, the general ceiling on prices is the only method of price control which really makes it possible to justify the stabilization of wages and of many other payments, such as the payment of pensions, dependents' allowances, and so forth.
Sixth, and finally, the fundamental reason is this. The piecemeal method of selective control would not prevent the inflationary spiral from developing. The general ceiling method is really the only one that will accomplish the purpose we had in mind. I think at this stage I will quote again from Mr. Baruch's submission to the congressional committee because he puts it very well indeed. He says:
While not perfect, and it is less so on account of this delay the overall ceiling plan raises fewer obstacles than .any other that has been brought forward. To fix prices in piecemeal fashion one by one is to invite trouble, possibly interruptions in production, for it means you fix the return to some specific manufacturer while his costs are left to rise. It is impossible just to fix a few basic prices and let the others go free. We tried that in the last war and found we were being driven steadily to consider an enormous extension of the pricefixing field.
Piecemeal price fixing will not halt inflation. It allows the general price level to run wild, while dealing with a few individual prices. It is like commanding a moving regiment, "Regiment halt: but all soldiers except that fellow

 No. 4, that fellow in the first rank-keep marching."
As inflation occurs, the prices that are fixed soon become out of date and must be adjusted upward. Irregular rises in prices destroy the relationships between various costs, requiring even greater adjustments.
Since the goal of price control is to maintain a stable, balanced relationship between all prices, why no.t keep a balanced stability when you have it? Why permit the "norm" when the law of supply and demand was working to be disrupted and then scramble wildly to recapture piecemeal what we had in the first place? The question is, shall .prices be determined by an administrator working under every conceivable pressure, or whether congress, by placing a ceiling as of a given date, shall keep prices at a level earlier established by supply and demand?
Under the overall ceiling the price level is treated as an organic whole, with only exceptional adjustments here and there. That method stops a runaway and keeps the whole team in line. The piecemeal method submits to the runaway and then tries to keep some of the horses from running faster than the rest. The overall ceiling does not mean that the producers of agricultural commodities or labour would get less. If the cost of all things were kept down, they might get more. Everyone knows that

The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley
-after the war it will be impossible to maintain excessively high prices without debasing the purchasing -power of the dollar. Agricultural prices and probably wages will fall further than other prices-they always do.. If prices are allowed to skyrocket now,, the post-war disparity between various groups will be far greater than if all prices are kept at a low level now. I have particularly in mind the unhappy plight of the farmer in .the years following the last war.	.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What was the date of that submission?


James Lorimer Ilsley: This submission was made in September of 1941, September 18 or 19. Now it may be said that these views of Mr. Baruch have not been accepted in the United States, that all the control the United States is considering-I do not know what stage the bill has reached-is a price control bill based upon the selective principle. But a report had been made to -the president on the Canadian price-ceiling plan, which received full publicity in the papers, and which pointed out the differences in the situation in the United States and in Canada. It pointed out that what was not or might not be desirable in the United States might very well be possible and desirable in Canada. In Canada we have had in operation in a great many industries of this country, since December, 1940, the cost of living bonus principle with regard to the wages of labour, a principle which was fair to labour, we believed, and I think labour generally believes, and fair to industry; and as the principle became more widely understood and more widely accepted it became possible more and more to apply that principle, as we are doing under this policy, to the industry of the country generally. Thereby we were enabled to stabilize-not fix, not keep wages from rising at all, but stabilize-wages. That is an essential element of a -price-ceiling policy. If agricultural prices and wages are left uncontrolled we might just as well stop thinking about a price-ceiling policy. There must be some control there; otherwise the whole thing
will just be an abortive attempt. But we had that to work on in the Dominion of Canada, which they did not have in the United States of America, and it is a -basis which, as I have said, is fair, in my opinion and in the opinion of the government.
There were other reasons given in the report to the president, indicating that this might very well be a good policy for Canada even though it might not be for the United States. But I will not go into this further at the moment.
Now, certain questions have been asked, and more questions undoubtedly will be asked in committee, but I am going to ask and answer a few of the more important and searching questions which have been asked about this policy.
First, we have been asked, why, if this was a good thing to do, was it not done before? Why select this particular period in the war to impose a price-ceiling policy? Well, I think this is the proper time to introduce the policy, for two or three very good reasons.
I have here a chart which I cannot show to hon. members, but I will keep it before me and try to describe it to the members of the committee; I will see that it is put on Hansard, and I hope that everybody will look at this chart in Hansard and undertake to grasp its full significance. It is a chart showing the trend of wholesale prices between 1914 and 1921, and the trend of the cost of living during the same period; it also shows the trend in wholesale prices between 1939 and 1941 and the trend in the cost of living during the same period. The last war began in August, 1914; this war began in September, 1939; and, allowing for that one month's difference in tbe date of the commencement of the war, the year 1939 may be taken as comparable with the year 1914, the year 1940 may be compared with 1915, 1941 may be compared with 1916, and, by keeping these years in mind, we can determine the stage at which the last war was as compared with the stage that we have reached in this war. This is the chart:

The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley



The War-Finance-Mr. llsley
Now this chart shows that, at this stage in the last war, which would be the fall of 1916, the rise in the wholesale price level was about the same as it is to-day-a little, but not very much higher. I should qualify that by saying that the statement I have just made is true as of July or August of this year. The rise in the price level was about 26 per cent; the wholesale price level stood at about 126, as compared with the beginning of the war, in July or August, 1916. What happened then? If hon. members will look at this chart they will observe that the wholesale price level turned abruptly and made a tremendous rise. It went up very steeply and rapidly until by the summer of 1920 it stood at about 256, or somewhere between 255 and 260, an enormous increase in the wholesale price level. Now this was the stage of the last war at which that started'-right now, or a little earlier than now.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister suggests that this is the psychological moment?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Undoubtedly this is the
psychological moment. The same is true of the cost of living. The cost of living lags a little behind the rise in the wholesale price level. It has now risen 14-6 per cent over August, 1939. It was something like that at this stage of the last war-15 or 16 per cent -and immediately after that in the last war it took a sharp slant upwards and in the summer of 1920 reached about 198. In the summer of 1920 both levels broke, the wholesale price level and the cost of living level. They simply dropped down to the earth and ruined hundreds of thousands of people. That laid the basis for all kinds of trouble in the future, and the occurrence of that event in this and other countries was undoubtedly the cause of momentous changes for the worse.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The same thing happened in 1929, did it not, though not perhaps to the same extent?


James Lorimer Ilsley: There was no such rise as that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Not to the same extent, but there was certainly a drop.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I would point out that, so far as I can see, the same forces that operated at that time are at work to-day, only in greater degree, because in that war we spent only 10 per cent of the national income, devoting one hour in ten to the production of war materials and supplies. Now we are getting to the point of nearly 40 per cent of the national income being devoted to production of war supplies, and there is no question at all that unless we take hold of the situation at this 14873-2621
moment and deal with it vigorously we are going to be confronted by a rapid and long price rise such as took place between 1916 and 1920. In fact, it may be very much worse for the reasons I have stated, because the forces now are much more powerful. In my opinion we would have now a much higher increase than we had at this stage in the last war if it were not for the severity of our taxation policy, which undoubtedly has restrained prices, and our selective price controls, which have existed over quite a broad field. The forces at work to-day are more powerful as a result of the greatly increased amounts we are spending and the greatly increased proportion of the national income we are devoting to war purposes. For these reasons the forces to which I refer are more powerful in this war than they were in the last. That is the reason why in my opinion this is the proper time.
The second reason is that we could never have imposed a price ceiling until we had given agricultural prices a chance to rise. Agricultural prices were very low before the war; I do not dispute that for a moment. But on the basis of percentages there has been a tremendous increase in everything except wheat. I am going to give some percentages, and I want it clearly understood that I am not expressing approval of the level of agricultural prices in August, 1939. Here are the figures between August, 1939, and September, 1941, giving the prices of the commodities stated: Oats, 80 per cent; barley, 66 per cent; butter 57 per cent; eggs, 33 per cent; cheese, 51 per cent, including bonuses; cattle, 58 per cent; hogs, 40 per cent; whole milk, 14 per cent.
On the whole, with the exception of wheat and certain less important products, the former disparity between prices of farm products and other prices has been very largely corrected. Broadly speaking, retail food prices now bear about their normal relation to other retail prices. The importance of this recovery of food prices to the cost of living is shown by the fact that of the increase of 12-8 in the cost of living index between August, 1939, and 1941, over 53 per cent is due to increases in the prices of food. With regard to wheat, there has been very little increase, but it must be borne in mind that the price established in August, 1939, was a government-established price, not a market-established price. That price has increased 8 per cent and is still a government-established price, but the open market price of wheat being very low in August, 1939, has increased by a much larger percentage- something like 40 per cent. There is no point in saying that; it has no significance whatever in the matter, but I am point-
The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley

ing out that there was a government-established price both times, and therefore the increase in the cost of wheat has been slight on a percentage basis. We must, however, realize that wheat producers now receive a number of other payments in addition to the price paid for wheat, and these other payments are intended to raise their income to a reasonable level without adding to the wheat surplus, as a higher rate would do. That is the second reason for waiting until now to impose a ceiling.
The third reason is one to which I have already referred, namely, that the principle of P.C. 7440, that is, the cost of living bonus, a principle which is an essential feature of this policy and which would have to be an essential feature of any policy before we could ask labour to forego increases, has become fairly widely understood and fairly widely accepted.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: Before the minister
leaves that point, will he tell us what his authority is for the statistics to which he refers? Are those from the bureau of statistics, showing increases in farm prices?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I shall have to get the exact authority for them; I cannot answer the question offhand. These statistics are most carefully checked by my officials before they are given to me and I cannot say what their source is. I will, however, get that information for the hon. member. I am willing to wager that there is no mistake about them; if there were, it would be the first time. Perhaps it might not be inappropriate if I quoted, with regard to the policy and its relation to labour, what a member of the British parliament, Mr. George Isaacs, Labour member of parliament for Southwark, London, had to say. He is the president of the printers and operators union of Great Britain, and he was in Canada on October 30, when he gave an interview, in which he is reported as follows:
Mr. Isaacs called the price and wage fixing "a courageous piece of legislation, which I would like to see enacted in Great Britain." What complaints could labour have, he asked, when prices as well as wages had been fixed? If the cost of living does go up, provision is made for a corresponding wage increase, he pointed out. "I know for a fact," he declared, "that our people would willingly accept that legislation. To-day in Britain we have ceilings on rationed goods only. This has resulted in a thirty per cent increase in the cost of living while wages have only gone up fifteen per cent."
Another question that has been asked is whether the staff required to administer this policy will not be out of all reason, it will be so large. I do not know what staff will be required. The war-time prices and trade board has been working day and night getting the

organization together and is making very good progress in having it in readiness for dealing with applications for adjustments, enforcement and so forth. But having in mind certain estimates of 10,000 employees and so on, I think I should say that the requirements have been considerably overestimated, at least for the initial stages.
Then a question has been asked, what about imports? If the cost of imports goes up and the imported articles are used in the production and manufacture of goods in this country, how can we keep a ceiling over the price of the finished product? That is a matter which has been considered; in fact, all the questions I have been asked are questions which I have considered. There is not a detailed answer to these questions, but the general principles have all been considered. I do not know exactly what will be done in the case of imports, but it may well be that many of the imports will have to be handled by import boards, who may buy them at the prices they are obliged to pay abroad and1 sell them to manufacturers or producers in this country at a loss, which in effect would be a case of keeping the cost of goods down by bonuses or subsidies. That is and has been for a considerable length of time the procedure followed very largely in the United Kingdom; probably the leader of the opposition was told or knows about that system.
What about exports? If the price goes up abroad, are we to let all our goods go out of the country? If so, what about our own requirements? There again it may be necessary, although I do not say it will be done, to establish export boards which will have some control over exports.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the minister say the import question has been settled, or is being considered?


James Lorimer Ilsley: It is being considered.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is, of course, another method.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Well, perhaps we had better not get into that. What about increased cost? We have a great many applications now by those who submit that their costs have increased and that they have not adjusted their selling prices, and they want an adjustment. All I can say on this point is that an attempt will be made to meet and obviate real injustices. But I would say that we should not allow a puncturing of the price ceiling unless real attempts are made to reduce costs, which can, I think, be done in a great many cases.

The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley
Then, why was the ceiling imposed by order in council instead of being submitted to parliament? That question was asked here by those speaking on behalf of the Conservative party and the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation party. The answer is that we could not afford to wait; we could not run the risk of waiting. There were three dates or periods which had to be fixed with complete definiteness: the first was the base period, that is the period represented by the time between September 15 and October 11; the second, the date of the announcement; and the third, the effective date. During the period between the announcement and the effective date, which is November 17, the setting up of an organization would be necessary and, in fact, the setting up of an organization is necessary. Once you start to set up an organization, secrecy becomes absolutely impossible; everyone in the country knows what you are doing or trying to do. But if we had not fixed these dates definitely they would not have known what the base period was; they probably would have thought that when we got ready to freeze the price level, when parliament fixed it, if it were fixed by parliament, they would fix it as of the date the act passed, or something like that, and there undoubtedly would have been an upward adjustment of prices from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Everywhere people would have been putting their prices up, and the effect would not have been anti-inflationary but inflationary-and in a big way.
In parliament itself there would have been some delay-I do not say there would have been unreasonable delay-and the possibility of a long debate in parliament would have meant that the effective date could not have been fixed in advance. It is very important that there be not too long a time between the announcement and the effective date.
In short, it is one of those things that simply had to be done by order in council if it were to be done effectively. There is nothing unconstitutional or illegal about doing anything like this by order in council. The committee should not forget that the War Measures Act was passed by this parliament giving the executive authority to do what it was necessary to do to carry on the war, and this in our opinion was one of those things. It merely carried out a price policy that had been established during the last year or two; it was a very long step in advance of a selective price policy, but the powers to be exercised by the war-time prices and trade board were powers they already had.
With the Germans at the gateway of the Caucasus the situation was too serious to
run the risk of delayed action or ineffective action when prompt and effective action could legally and constitutionally be taken.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Would the minister
elaborate a little on the rent situation with regard to the setting of the ceiling?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I prefer not to at the
moment.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Many people would like to know about that.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The suggestion has been made that we were bad psychologists or bad politicians, or something of that kind. I think from two or three sources it was said that the psychology of the thing was bad, that we should have gone further than we did, and from the psychological point of view, if for no other reason, it should also have applied to salaried people and executives. I did not intend to make this announcement at this time, but I should like the committee to know that for the last two or three weeks we have been working at an order to place a ceiling over all managerial and executive salaries, directors' fees, et cetera, and that ceiling, I may say, will not provide for any cost of living bonus. It will be readily apparent that there are difficulties in working out the details of such an order, but I hope to have these resolved and to be able to announce the programme in a very few days.
There are a great many people in Canada who would like to know what they can do to help make this a success. I think that should be the attitude of every member of this committee and of everyone in the country; it is the attitude of thousands and thousands of people. I cannot put my suggestions in any more concise form than I did in a speech which I made some time ago when I was asking business men for their assistance in making government control measures operative and effective. Therefore, while I dislike to quote what I said before, as I cannot put it any better, I am going to do so. I said:
First of all, I would ask you to shun a defeatist attitude towards rising prices. Inflation is not inevitable. It can and will be prevented. It will be prevented much more easily if we all join in the effort and reject the view that resistance is useless.
Secondly, we need your active support in our savings campaigns. A rising volume of savings will not only provide the government with the funds needed for war purposes but it will relieve the persistent upward pressure of expenditure on prices. This is its important economic purpose.
In normal times-in peace-time-we do not try to discourage expenditure. We encourage it, to obtain employment and, if possible, prosperity. But these are anything but normal times. Now we must limit expenditure. The
The War-Finance-Mr. Ilsley

more we can limit it by encouraging voluntary saving, the better it will be for all concerned, including business. For example, if *a business finds itself with its prices fixed and its costs being forced up by excessive expenditures in other fields, it will be vitally interested in reduction of these expenditures. You need have no fear now that under present conditions there will be too little spending. What we need to do is to reduce the pressure of excessive spending. Therefore we are asking the public to spend less and save more. We need your support. We want your support in facilitating the organization and extension of savings plans in your own businesses.
Do not be misled by the spurious argument that more expenditure is needed to swell government revenues. The harm done by the extra expenditure is far greater than the good done by the extra taxes. We need the whole dollar diverted to us, not the fraction of it which would eventually come into our hands as taxes, if it is spent. The diversion of the dollar to us is needed to make available for the war the labour and materials which the expenditure of the dollar otherwise would merely use up in civilian satisfaction.
Thirdly, we shall need your cooperation, your active cooperation, in keeping your costs of production down. Price stability can only be achieved if costs can be held in check. In the last analysis they must be held in check by those who are running the businesses concerned. Waste of labour or materials must be eliminated-the nation cannot afford it in war-time. Luxury, extravagance or just plain carelessness in business expenditures cannot be tolerated. The government and the price controlling authorities cannot permit business to enjoy at this time the luxury of a situation in which increases in costs may be automatically passed on to the consumer.
If some costs increase I hope business will find others that can be reduced-perhaps overhead, when output is large, perhaps selling costs, now that there is an almost universal sellers' market, perhaps most of all the unnecessary costs due to an excessive number of patterns, types and varieties of products.
And, fourthly, we need your help in carrying out all our direct controls not only of prices but of production, and the use of materials as well. It is the managers of business who know how materials can be saved by substitutes, by standardization and by repairs. Your assistance is necessary in working out controls in such a way that they will do the most good, and the least harm. Your cooperation is needed in putting them into effect, with a minimum of dislocation. These controls are not going to be easy or pleasant for any of us. But they are necessary, if we are going to exert the greatest effort of which we are capable in the war, and therefore I am confident that you will all support them.
I was talking to 'business men on that occasion, but I should like to address the same appeal to farmers, to wage-earners and [DOT] consumers-indeed, to all the people. This situation is too serious to have a nation resisting or divided, or taking any steps which will render ineffective any important, carefully considered, well-reasoned government
fMr, Hsley.l
policies. I make the appeal to the people of this country to help us make our priceceiling policy a success.


Thomas Langton Church: Price fixing is going to land business in an awful mess in this country, before you get thro.ugh with it.


Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Chairman, before I begin my formal statement, a statement which I am afraid the committee will find much too formal, may I extend to my colleague who has just taken his seat (Mr. Ilsley) congratulations upon the magnificent address he has given. Perhaps I am somewhat selfish in offering my congratulations, because his remarks have made my task much easier, and will enable me considerably to shorten my remarks.
He has dealt with the question of the inflationary spiral and the question of managerial and executive salaries. He has dealt with many questions with which I now find it unnecessary to deal.
I should, however, like to make one further preliminary observation. A few minutes before entering the chamber to-night I had an opportunity of listening to a re-broadcast of the address by the President of the United States before the International Labour Organization. During the last week, while it met in New York, I had the privilege of attending the meetings. Incidentally may I state that in my opinion it is a matter of gratification to the committee that we have afforded a haven of refuge for that office, when it decided to move from Geneva.
There were represented at the meeting thirty-three different nations. The remarkable fact was that some of those nations had been overrun ; some of them had felt the force of Hitler's heel. The impression I got, sir, was that labour is doing a great deal to keep the lamp of liberty burning in this world.
Certain questions have been asked and references made respecting individual problems with which, as Minister of Labour, I have had to deal. The leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) referred to one, the hon. member for Waterloo South (Mr. Homuth) to another, and the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) to another. I thought perhaps in view of the understanding that there will be opportunity to consider individual questions later on, I would reserve my explanations on those points until that time.
With these preliminary remarks I crave the liberty to make copious references-I believe that is the phrase-to my notes. Might I at the outset of my remarks state that I welcome the opportunity of placing before this com-

The War-Labour-Mr. McLarty
mittee a statement of the activities and policies of the Department of Labour. I was invited to do so the day before yesterday by the leader of the opposition, and the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver East would, of course, make it imperative that I do so.
The difference in the viewpoints of the leader of the opposition and the hon. member for Vancouver East are rather marked. Those differences are shared by many in Canada. For example, if I was correct in my inference from the remarks of the leader of the opposition, as a result of his recent visit to England he suggested that in labour disputes we should adopt a policy of compulsory arbitration. On the other hand, the hon. member for Vancouver East suggested, and suggested vigorously, a policy of compulsory recognition.
Both are agreed on one point, namely, that relations between employers and employees should be regulated in a compulsory manner. While it may be true that compulsion may be the most expeditious method of settling a labour dispute, it is not, I suggest, the true corrective method or the one that in the final analysis will prove effective in producing stability in the relationship between labour and industry.
The hon. member for Vancouver East suggested that labour should be a partner with industry. With that proposition I entirely agree. If fulfilment of that idea of partnership should come-and it will-it would render very much easier the task of any minister of labour.
But a partnership is a matter of mutual agreement. To be successful it must be the result of a desire of both parties each to cooperate with the other. Coercion is not the appropriate method of establishing it.
I mention this because recently I have been criticized for not stopping some strikes in industry by what are termed drastic measures. For example, in the slow-down strike in Cape Breton there were requests made that we "throw in the troops" and that we "intern the men". On the other hand there were demands that we take over the mines. We did neither.
I am convinced to-day that to have taken either course would have been unfortunate. I say that with somewhat more confidence by reason of the fact that the coal mines in Nova Scotia are to-day producing more coal than ever before in the history of that province.
That the policy of this government has been to some extent vindicated is evidenced by the fact that there is not a single strike
in any war industry in Canada to-day. But I should like to give credit where credit is due, and I should like to-day to pay a tribute to those labour leaders in Canada who by their sincere efforts to promote industrial peace at this time have made that result possible.
An impression has been created in the public mind that in this country strikes have been rampant and that labour has not been doing its very utmost to assist in the war. This is possibly due to the fact that when
3,100,000	men and women go to work each day it is not news, but if thirty do not go to work, it is news. A great deal has been said, and properly said, about the loyal devotion to duty of workers in other lands. But what about the workers in Canada? I do not in any way wish to belittle the efforts of the workers in other countries, but in fairness to the workers of Canada I feel it is only just that I present certain figures to this committee which will, I believe, indicate that they have not been weakening or slackening in their work.
For the first six months of the present year the man-days lost due to strikes or lockouts for each 1,000 wage-earners were as follows:
In Gireat Britain	  41
In Canada	 54
In the United States	 381
I have not the figures for Australia for the six months' period, but have for the first three months' period, and in that period their time loss due to strikes or lockouts was ten times greater than in Canada.
Before I proceed to a consideration of the various orders in council pased on the recommendation of the Minister of Labour, may I deal with one other matter. The suggestion was made by- the member for Vancouver East that this government is opposed to the aims and aspirations of organized labour. I cannot state too emphatically that this is not correct. It would be difficult for me to imagine and, what is more important, it would be difficult for organized labour to imagine that any government headed by the present Prime Minister of Canada would desire to subtract from those rights which labour has gained over the last century.
We have asked labour to surrender some of its rights, but the Prime Minister has given an assurance that those rights will, after this war is won, be reestablished and reestablished in a generous manner. If any more effective assurance is required or desired I am prepared to recommend to my colleagues in the government that such further assurance should be given, and I know that favourable action would be taken on that recommendation.

The War-Labour-Mr. McLarty
With this point in view, while it is one thing to declare a policy and another to translate it into action, in June of last year, with the full approval of representative organizations of labour and industry, the government issued an order in council, P.C. 2685, which does express the fundamental principles of our wartime labour policy. It declared that good industrial relations are especially important in war time; that no element in the community can be permitted to benefit from war-time necessities; that the needs of the community at large must be regarded as paramount; and that the aspirations of workers to the right of association and to enter into collective agreements will, under wise direction, make for the removal of prejudice and for fuller cooperation between employers and employed.
The principles set forth in the body of this order in council are, in summary form, as follows:
(1)	Every effort should be made to speed production by war industries; (2) Fair and reasonable standards of wages and working conditions should be recognized and any temporary adjustments in remuneration due to rvar conditions might well be in the form of bonus payments; (3) Hours of work should not be unduly extended but rather increased output should be secured by the adoption of additional shifts; (4) The established safeguards for the protection of the health and safety of the workers should not be relaxed; (5) There should be no interruption of work on account of strikes or lockouts. Differences not otherwise disposed of should be settled under the procedure of the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act; (6) Employees should be free to organize in trade unions free from any control by employers or their agents. The existing provisions against illegal refusal to employ or to dismiss from employment because of trade union membership and against intimidation to prevent a workman from belonging to a union were reaffirmed; (7) Employees should be free to negotiate with employers through representatives of their own choosing with a view to the conclusion of a collective agreement; (8) Every such agreement should provide machinery for the settlement of disputes and should be scrupulously observed; (9) Workers should neither coerce nor intimidate any person to join their organization; (10) Any necessary suspension of established labour conditions in order to speed up war production should be effected by mutual agreement and should apply onily during the emergency.
I have taken the time to read these because the order is an appeal, not a command, and it is still necessary to publicize these principles and to work for their more general and willing acceptance. Specifically, there are still many employers who are not yet genuinely willing to negotiate and sign collective agreements with trade unions.
Might I suggest that we can defeat totalitarianism at home and abroad only if we really put our trust in the democratic process,
'Mr. McLarty.]
not only in our political life but in our industrial life. I believe that trade unionism is the essence of industrial democracy and that it must be woven ever more firmly into the fabric of industrial relations. On the other hand it is necessary to warn some unions that the fact that the government has declared the principle of freedom to organize does not mean that the government will conduct organizing campaigns for them, or approves any inclination to exploit the necessities of the war situation to high-pressure workers into unions which without such high pressure methods they would not be willing to join.
I have already made it clear that order in council, P.C. 2685, of June 19, 1940, setting out these principles, the general acceptance of whicli by industry and by labour would contribute to the success of the war effort, was not made compulsorily binding on either employers or workers. In some quarters the government has been subjected to criticism that this order was not made compulsory; in other words, the employers are not forced to enter into union agreements. The government, however, has been and still is reluctant, for reasons I have already mentioned, to introduce compulsory features into the field of industrial relations, and I am quite sure that any criticism of governmental policy in this respect is not receiving support from the more thoughtful elements in the labour movement. None of us can see very far ahead these days and it is impossible to determine at this stage what compulsions may yet have to be resorted to, but certainly in respect of industrial relations the public policy set out in P.C. 2685 has been fully justified in the very general avoidance of industrial disputes at the present time.
Another order in council affects more particularly those who, after enlisting, are discharged or demobilized. This order provides that the fullest measure of protection will be given to those who left their employment or service to enlist in the armed forces. It is known as the civil employment reinstatement order.
This order makes it mandatory for any employer, by whom a person accepted for service in his majesty's forces was employed when accepted, to reinstate him in employment at the termination of that service in such occupation or position as the order provides. It is the expressed intention of this order to ensure that this will be done under conditions no less favourable to the enlisted employee than those which would, have been available to him had he not so enlisted. In the last war there were a great number of complaints from men discharged from his majesty's forces serving in Canada or overseas who were refused the

The War-Labour-Mr. McLarty
positions they formerly held. In as far as the government can properly prevent such complaints, they will not ensue either during or following the present war.
The splendid men who enlist in the armed forces will, subject to what I have just said, have no justification for saying that while they were in uniforms or fighting abroad, others who might have been fighting there have taken their positions.
This order is one that will require legislation to make it effective after the war, and it is the intention of the government to introduce as soon as possible in the ensuing session of parliament the necessary legislation for enactment by parliament.
This order and the legislation which will ensue contain a penal clause and make any employer who fails to comply with the provisions of the order or the regulations made thereunder guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to substantial penalties.
May I here state that it has been suggested that the government has passed orders which require penalties from employees but that orders enjoining employers have been exempted from any penalties. I will be glad to give illustrations that will prove the inaccuracy of this suggestion.
The government has also taken steps to assure employees of firms engaged in war work minimum compensation for their labour. As members are aware, the fair wages act was passed in 1935 setting forth what wages should be paid and the hours of labour which should be worked. It was felt that the minimum compensation paid employees in war establishments should be increased and on the 4th of October last a new order was adopted making it part of the law of Canada for a contractor or a sub-contractor to pay male employees not less than thirty-five cents an hour.
. By another order the Minister of Labour is empowered when he finds that a contractor or subcontractor is employing any person at less than the fixed minimum rate prescribed, to withhold payment of any amount due to such contractor. A cheque for the amount of the underpayment must be delivered to the deputy minister of labour to be held as trustee for the settlement of such a claim.
This order further provides that such contractor or subcontractor must likewise keep a true and correct record of the wages paid and the hours worked by each of his employees.
In this order provision has also been made that any contractor or subcontractor who fails to comply with the regulations contained is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction for penalties ranging from $200 to $1,000. It will thus be seen that precautions have been taken to give to workers employed 14873-263	revised
in establishments engaged in war work that protection to which they are entitled.
Another order that has been passed provides for the course to be followed before any strike may be declared legally, following procedure under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act. Under the provisions of this statute it was required that authority to declare a strike must be obtained before any board could be applied for. When, however, the government set up the inquiry commission, to which I will refer, the requirement as to a strike vote was not insisted upon in all cases in so far as reference was provided to the inquiry commission.
But I believe that no member of this house would suggest that it is not fair and not democratic that before any man goes on strike he has the right of self-determination and the right to say whether such a strike shall take place or not. It is because of that belief that this order in council lias been passed.
It sometimes happens that workers are influenced or stampeded into taking action which on second thought they may regret. It is entirely in conformity with democratic procedure that the wish of the majority should govern. Under the provisions of this order, before any strike may take place following the report of a 'board established under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, the Minister of Labour must be notified that it is the desire of the workers that such strike take place; and in that event he may order that the vote be taken under the supervision of the officers of the Department of Labour.
All persons affected by the dispute are entitled to vote and the vote must take place without delay-in fact the order specifically provides that it must be taken within five days.
When the order was first passed it was subject to some criticism. It was criticized on the one hand by reason of the fact that it was too inadequate and was ineffective. It was criticized on the other hand because it interfered with the right to strike.
The fact is, however, that neither criticism was justified nor correct. It is a most democratic order and gives to every man and woman the right to say whether he or she wishes to participate in any strike and to forgo his or her wages during the time that any strike might be in progress.
I believe it is fair to state that the Department of Labour has in every way sought: first, to protect every worker by establishing fair wage standards and to prevent industrial strife; second, to protect the lower paid workers against attempts of unscrupulous employers to deny them the minimum compensation to which they are entitled; third,



EDITION

[Stage Direction]
The War-Labour-Mr. McLarty
to adjust any labour disputes as rapidly as possible; and fourth, to give workers in war plants throughout the country an opportunity to register their views, for or against a strike, after the findings of a conciliation board have been submitted.
I should like to draw to the attention of the committee the creation of an entirely new body in Canada which has materially aided in the prompt investigation and adjustment of disputes which might have otherwise resulted in stoppages of work involving many thousands of men. Because of the application of the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act to all war industries, the number of applications for conciliation boards necessarily greatly increased. Each application had to be examined before a decision on its appointment was reached and the board itself was established.
But even after a board was applied for, the conciliation services of the Department of Labour were continued. Both dealing with the application, and the work of the conciliation board, took time. The result was that complaints were made by labour organizations of delay between the time of the application for the board and its establishment. This caused some measure of discontent on the part of workers and the feeling that the delay in setting up such boards was unnecessary.
It was felt that some action should be taken more promptly and effectively to deal with disputes in order that decisions might be more quickly obtained to determine whether the circumstances recited in the application warranted, by the nature of the dispute, the setting up of a board. The government in consequence created the industrial disputes inquiry commission.
The personnel of this commission is, I believe, one that will commend itself to this house. Mr. Humphrey Mitchell, a former member of the house, a gentleman who has been associated with the Department of Labour for several years and who has an intimate knowledge of labour problems, was appointed chairman. Associated with him are Mr. Gilbert Jackson and Mr. George Hodge. The former is an economist of international repute, and the latter has been in charge of industrial relation matters for the Canadian Pacific Railway company for many years.
This commission immediately assumed its duties, and its efforts in the prevention of disputes and in the adjustment of difficulties has more than met the expectations of the government.
Fifty-two disputes in all have been referred to the industrial disputes inquiry commission for attention since the appointment of this body in the beginning of July. In twenty-two

cases settlements were arranged' by the commission, resulting in a withdrawal of the applications which had previously been made for the establishment of boards of conciliation and investigation. In eight other cases inquiries made by the commission resulted in the establishment of boards of conciliation and investigation. In thirteen instances the inquiry commission found that the circumstances did not warrant the appointment of boards.
There were, in addition, two special references by the minister to the commission, three instances in which the references are still outstanding, and other cases in which the facts were brought to the attention of the Minister of Labour.
The creation of this commission has meant a tremendous saving in what would otherwise have meant lost man-hours, ill-will and discontent. This, it is fully realized, is inevitable where disputes either in being or threatening are not quickly adjusted.
Might I point out that the Department of Labour is doing everything possible to provide facilities whereby training opportunities are provided for those who wish to obtain a knowledge of the trades and crafts that will permit the production of a still greater quantity of the munitions of war.
This committee has heard something of the war emergency training programme in which the Department of Labour is engaged. We are now moving ahead of any programme and, for example, in our vocational classes are training more than 50,000 men a year.
But we are moving much further than that. The war-time bureau of technical personnel was set up under the capable chairmanship of Mr. E. M. Little. He is entitled to appreciation for what he has already accomplished. The aid which this bureau has given and will give will be substantial.
As an example, might I state that in the case of the newsprint industry, the utilities industry, the mines and in the field of chemical engineering a great many are now being trained for the express purpose of taking their place in war industry or enabling those who are already trained in those particular industries to take their place in industries engaged in war work.
This committee will, I know, not forget that Canada was forced on very short notice to embark upon a huge programme of construction and production of war equipment and supplies. This required the setting up of additional machinery and meeting not only pressing present exigencies but emergencies. These have been met as effectively and promptly, I believe, as circumstances permitted.

The War-Labour-Mr. McLarty
I believe it is a matter of congratulation that notwithstanding a situation without parallel in our history, with the good-will of labour and industry, we have been able to adapt ourselves to the new situation.
The policy of the government and of the Department of Labour in all that relates to production will continue to be that of doing everything possible to maintain harmonious relations between employees and employers.
Recently the government passed an order stabilizing wages. I trust, Mr. Chairman, that in the references I make I shall not be guilty of too much repetition of what has been more ably said than I can say it, by the Minister of Finance. I do, however, have to deal with that phase of the general policy which he has explained, dealing with the matter of wages. As I have said, recently the government passed an order stabilizing wages. That order is part of a wider programme decided upon by the government in an attempt to prevent a vicious inflationary spiral recurring in Canada.
Taxation on profits and on dividends had already been provided. The control of prices is now provided for. This stabilization of wages is not entirely new. For on December 16, 1940, the government passed an order in council which has been widely applied in war industries.
The choice faced by the government at the time it was passed was to let wage rates take their unplanned upward course stimulating that spiral of inflation, or to introduce a measure of equitable control. The government selected the second alternative of trying to minimize changes in wage rates and, to some extent therefore, of prices and the cost of living. It ordered that in the essential war industries there should be no increase in basic wage rates except, where wages were found to be too low. The expression "freezing" has been used. This order is not a freezing order; it is a stabilizing order; because, if wages are too low, the board will have power to increase them.
Angus MacInnis: Is it compulsory?


Norman Alexander McLarty: On the board?


Angus MacInnis: Well, on those to whom it applies?
Mr. MoLARTY: Oh, the order is mandatory, yes. But the point I was making was this, that wages can be increased if they are too low. The word "freeze" suggests an inflexibility that covers all.


Angus MacInnis: I thought from the minister's earlier remarks that he was opposed to compulsion.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Well, it is mandatory on both sides. I mean, it is not just on one side. As I have said, the government selected the second alternative of trying to minimize changes in wage rates and, to some extent therefore, of prices and the cost of living. It ordered that in the essential war industries there should be no increase in basic wage rates and suggested that adjustments to increases in the cost of living should take the form of a separate cost of living bonus in a flat amount for all classes of workers.
To the extent that the maintenance of current wage rates does prevent an increase in prices and in the cost of living, wage-earners and all classes in the community, including the government in its capacity of the country's biggest buyer, will all clearly benefit. The heart of the policy is not to restore some previously high level of wages, but to prevent what might otherwise be a series of "runaway" increases from present levels. The purpose is not to "protect" any one class of citizens, but to ensure the conduct of our war effort by imposing the necessary sacrifices on all classes in an orderly manner.
Since some increase in the cost of living, however, was almost certain to result from the transfer of so large a proportion of our resources to the production of war materials and supplies, it seemed necessary and proper to assure, not that labour should be completely protected from price increases or from sharing reasonably in whatever sacrifices the war may require, but that the basic standard of living of the workers should be protected. For that reason the order in council generally known as 7440 provided, not that wage rates should be "geared to living costs" but that, by a flat cost of living bonus, uniform for all workers, any impairment of the basic standard of living and of productive efficiency should be prevented.
It is to be noted that the flat bonus, regardless of the worker's wage rate, will extend a very much greater measure of protection to the low-paid than to the high-paid worker and gears to the cost of living only the wages of those workers at or near a minimum level of subsistence and that part of the wages of other workers which is spent for basic necessities.
Our present wage policy was based upon the outstanding lesson learned as a result of our experience during the last war. In that period all belligerents financed their war effort in varying degrees by inflation. In all of them, despite all efforts at war-time controls, prices and the cost of living increased more rapidly than wage rates. On the one hand this led

The War-Labour-Mr. McLarty
to perhaps unintended but automatic profiteering; on the other hand, to arbitrary and capricious reductions in the *wage-earners' standard of living. A few favourably situated wage-earners were able, it is true, to enforce wage increases more rapidly than the cost of living rose, but for the majority of the workers the reduction in their standard of living was very substantial.
It is a fact, so well known to this committee, that real wages never keep pace with nominal wages that I need scarcely repeat it. Money, after all, is only a convenient medium of exchange. May I illustrate this by the experience of the last war. The Minister of Finance has already given certain figures in connection with it. Those figures relate particularly to wage rates and the cost of living. By 1917 the cost of living had risen 39 per cent, wages only 26 per cent. By 1918 the cost of living had risen 59 per cent, but wages only 47 per cent. Wage rates never overtook the cost of living during the whole period of rising prices.
This economic fact was a continual source not only of industrial friction, but, for certain groups, also of genuine suffering during the war period and made the necessary post-war readjustments proportionately more difficult.
That order in council which has become somewhat widely known as 7440 was directed to and formed the basis of awards of boards of conciliation appointed under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act.
In the recent order respecting wages the essential principles remain the same, but changes have been made in its application and in its administration. These changes may be summarized as follows:
(1) The previous order was directed to conciliation boards appointed under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act. As such it was necessarily limited to boards to which that act applied or to which its application was extended, at the request of labour on November 7, 1939, and which included all war industries in Canada. The present order extends to all industries, subject to certain limitations.
In the construction industry it applies where ten or more are employed. In other industries it applies where fifty or more are employed. The reason for the distinction is that in the construction industry a contractor while employing a large number might have few on one job. These minimum figures are fixed largely for administrative purposes and the administrative machinery is provided which will advise the government on such changes in these minimum numbers as may appear desirable.
[Mr McLarty.]
(2)	It makes the payment of the cost of living bonus mandatory, subject only to the power of the national war labour board to determine that the employer is clearly unable to pay.
(3)	It provides for an accounting period as to the proper amount of the bonus each three months.
(4)	It provides for the creation of a national war labour board and of five regional boards which will be charged with the responsibility of administering the order and of ascertaining that its provisions are fairly and properly carried out.
In addition the national board has power to recommend to the government such matters as it may deem necessary, subject to the principles enunciated in the order in council, to which I have previously referred, passed on the 19th of June, 1940, and generally described as P.C. 2685.
I have outlined the general principles of the order. If I were to go into more detail I could do so only by reading the order itself to this committee. I fully appreciate the fact that a more detailed discussion will ensue upon it.
The only criticism that has been voiced is the measure of consultation with those affected before the order was passed. Well, the order invades the provincial field. We invited the provincial ministers of labour to a conference that was held on October 14. We asked them if they had objections to the passing of the order-because it did invade their field. When it was realized that the dominion government believed this measure was essential in our conduct of the war, no serious objection was raised by any province represented.
The Prime Minister and I met leading representatives of labour. Details of the order were not discussed; but I believe it fair to say they felt that the general principles of the order in council stabilizing wages should not properly be confined to war industries alone, but in the application should cover all industries. The order was submitted to the national labour supply council. That council made suggestions of a number of amendments, many of which were adopted.
I wish to be fair to this committee. I would not wish to convey the suggestion that because it was discussed with the various ministers of labour, with the leaders of labour organizations and with the national labour supply council, it was either approved or disapproved by all of those participating in these conferences.
Some suggested they had not the authority from their respective organizations either to approve or disapprove. I make mention of

The War-Procedure of the House
these consultations, however, to demonstrate that the programme was not lightly embarked upon or without great consideration being given to it.
But it is, after all, a war measure. The government in the last analysis must assume responsibility for its success or failure, and having ultimately to assume that responsibility, it must do so now.
The success of this measure depends upon its acceptance and its application by both labour and industry in Canada. That it will receive such acceptance and be fairly and impartially applied, I have no doubt. As each day passes, the people of Canada have shown in an increasing degree not only a willingness but a great desire to bear the irksome restrictions and the great sacrifices which war inevitably brings. This measure may be regarded by some as one of those restrictions and as one more of those sacrifices.
The government feels that it is essential to our war effort and will add to the effectiveness of that effort, as well as to the happiness and prosperity of the Canadian people after the war has been won.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The committee will recall that under the arrangement made with respect to procedure, it was understood that after the leader of the opposition and the leaders of the two groups had spoken, the ministers who have been charged principally with the administration of Canada's war effort would each make a formal statement, and that when their statements had been concluded the house would continue in committee and, if so desired, discussion would follow on the subject matter of the several statements that had been made. In order to preserve relevancy and to avoid as much in the way of overlapping as possible, it was thought that it would be well to take up the discussion in committee in the same order in which the statements themselves had been presented. The formal statements of the ministers whose departments have chiefly to do with the war effort have now been made, and if we follow the procedure that was agreed upon we will now begin with the statement made by the Minister of Munitions and Supply and have an open discussion upon any matters which hon. members may wish to bring up on matters pertaining to munitions and supply, and then follow with discussion upon the statements of the other ministers, each in the order in which the ministers themselves have made their statements.
I should like to make this clear. There is no desire on the part of the government, and I am sure there was no desire on the part of the leader of the opposition or the leaders of
the groups in the house, in arriving at this arrangement, to preclude anyone from saying anything he pleases, so long as it is politely said, and to make any statement he may wish to make which in his opinion might be related to Canada's war effort. But some order will have to be followed, and I would suggest that we adhere to the one which was proposed and which is set out in Hansard of Tuesday, namely, to take the statements of the different ministers, following the order of their presentation. When that discussion is concluded, if there are other matters which any members wish to have discussed, they might be taken up at that stage. I do not wish to be a dictator, even as respects the procedure of the house. What I suggest is to facilitate orderly discussion. Perhaps we could make most headway were we to adjourn now and begin to-morrow the more general discussion, starting with the statement made by the Minister of Munitions and Supply.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before
the motion to adjourn is put, I should like to say this. At the conference to which the Prime Minister has referred, at which I was present together with hon. gentlemen representing the two other parties, I thought it was made clear that certain members of this house would like to give expression to their views after having heard the ministers and before we reached the stage of question and answer. If I did not make myself absolutely clear to the Prime Minister, that is my fault. There are members on this side, two or three-I do not know just how many-who would like to make extended remarks of their own, and I certainly suggest that it would be a great mistake if they were not allowed to do that. Therefore, I agree at once to the suggestion that we adjourn, but with the understanding that if anyone wants to speak at three o'clock to-morrow he be entitled to do so. There may be hon. gentlemen on the other side who would like to speak.
We have listened with the most intense interest to-day to three very important speeches-the speech of the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston), the speech of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley), which to me was very interesting and which, of course, I found it quite difficult to follow, and the speech of the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty), which requires some analysis. I should not leave out my hon. friend the Minister of National Defence for Air whose speech was short and understood, I think, by us all perfectly. I should not like to have it even suggested that if anyone wants to make any extended remarks here to-morrow he should be shut off. I hope the Prime Minister will grant

The War-Procedure oj the Home
that freedom of expression which characterized the statements maxie at the earlier stages of this session and before we had our meeting, that there was no disposition at all to shut out anyone who wants to make any remarks at this time in this house. I hope that will be adhered to.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The purpose of having the house sit in committee of the whole was to afford the greatest possible latitude to hon. members to say whatever they thought they should say with respect to the carrying on of the war by the administration. What I have said about following a particular order is according to what was my understanding at the time. There were other group leaders present, they will know whether I have interpreted the agreement reached aright or not. But let me say at once to my hon. friend the leader of the opposition that if there are members of his party or of any party who desire to speak immediately and not wait to take up the statements in the order I have suggested, as far as I am concerned I am perfectly willing that they should have the precedence to-morrow and to have to-morrow's proceedings start with their speeches. The whole purpose of the government in the sittings of the house at the present time is to have the fullest possible discussion of matters of public concern and interest.


Mr. NEILL:: We are dealing in a very
unusual way; I do not think I ever heard or read throughout the history of Canada where a parliament sat in committee and apparently discussed everything at large, nothing before the house, no resolutions, no estimates, and apparently it is impossible for us to move a resolution or propose amendments. Might I ask the Prime Minister if it would be in order under these very unusual circumstances for any hon. member to move a motion in this committee in order to give expression to or test the feeling of the house on any particular subject?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend says there never was procedure like this; there never was a war like the present. I might remind my hon. friend that the session of parliament was virtually over when we adjourned last June. This is an extra that comes at the end of the session. The government might have called hon. members together and adjourned without opportunity for discussion at all. But the last thought in our minds was to deny anyone the opportunity of discussing anything in any way he pleased so long as it was calculated to further Canada's war effort and have it fully understood. We could not think of any method

that would afford more latitude than to have the house sit continuously in committee. We realized that it was a novel procedure, but one that certainly could not be taken exception to on the score of the government trying in any way to prevent full and free discussion.
However, when it comes to what my hon. friend suggests, the moving of motions or bringing in of amendments to supply and the like, I am afraid that for that procedure we shall have to wait until the next session and the government brings down its programme and we proceed again in the regular way.


Joseph Henry Harris: Following the
same idea, it was brought to the attention of the Prime Minister this afternoon that since we were last in session here there have been certain committees sitting during the recess. It would be very interesting, and I think it is necessary, that the chairman of the committee and the chairman of the subcommittees, one very important sub-committee at least, should give the house and the country the benefit of their observations on a very important matter, and perhaps we should have an opportunity to discuss what they have done and what they purpose to do, or are we going to forget all about it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think I said, in reply to a question this afternoon, that I would give the house a little later on further information as to what is to be considered of the work of existing committees. Perhaps my answer to my hon. friend can stand.


John Ritchie MacNicol: On Monday last I believe it was I who asked the Minister of Pensions and National Health a question in reference to the reporting of a committee in connection with pensions to widows of non-pensioned soldiers. I did not word my question properly, and the minister gave a correct answer to the question I asked, but the question I had in mind was this:	Before the house adjourned
in the spring we were informed by the minister that during the summer that special committee would continue to consider the question of pensions to these widows, and we would hear something about it when the house met again.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The ' report of the parliamentary committee recommended that the government give consideration to certain action with reference to the subject mentioned by my hon. friend. That consideration has been given by the government during the recess, and the decision of the government has been not to amend the War Veterans' Allowance Act during this session or the next session, and generally the opinion that any remedy that can be given in

Labour Conditions-Kirkland Lake
that direction should be given as part of social service legislation and not under the War Veterans' Allowance Act.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Under what legislation
can these unfortunate non-pensioned soldiers'
widows receive consideration?


Angus MacInnis: Referring to the discussion that took place immediately the Minister of Labour sat down, as to procedure that would be followed from to-morrow, my understanding of our meeting in the Prime Minister's office is that what he had said to-night is substantially in accord with the agreement arrived at; that is, that the procedure will be much the same as in committee of the whole. If an hon. member wants to speak for a considerable length of time, even forty minutes or more, he is at liberty to speak, and if he wants to ask questions he can do that. But I understand that the procedure will be the same as if the house were in committee on some particular subject.


Ernest George Hansell: We have listened to very fine addresses from some of the ministers, but I do not think those addresses have covered Canada's entire war effort. Can the committee expect to hear from the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Trade and Commerce?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have just said that it was thought advisable that the formal statements should be confined to those departments that have primarily to do with the war effort. Then, if there are other matters that hon. members wish to discuss, affecting other departments, whether they relate to the war effort or to purely departmental matters apart from the war effort, the same liberty will be afforded for asking questions and receiving answers and having discussion.
The committee rose and obtained leave to sit again at the next sitting of the house.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the house adjourned at 10.10 p.m.
Friday, November 7,1941