1941-06-14

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That the names of Messrs. Coldwell, Reid, O'Neill and Mcllraith be substituted for those of Messrs. Maclnnis, Mayhew, McGeer and Gray on the special committee on war expenditures.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: That the recommendation of the honourable the Speaker with respect to the resignation of L. P. Desrosiers, Esquire, assistant chief of French journals, House of Commons, laid on the table of the house on the 10th of June, 1941, be concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Titles oj Honour


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetcwn-Biggar):: I desire to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Was the approval or opinion of the government of Canada sought regarding the elevation of the Right Hon. R. B Bennett to the peerage of the United Kingdom?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In reply to my hon. friend, who was kind enough to inform me of his intention to ask this question this morning, I would say that some little time ago the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom informed me of what he had in his mind with respect to recommending the appointment of the Right Hon. R. B. Bennett to the House of Lords, and asked if I had any observations to make with respect to the matter.
Perhaps I can best explain the situation by reading the resolution of the House of Commons which was adopted in 1919 with respect to titles and orders, or rather, that portion of it which is pertinent. An address was presented to his majesty praying that his majesty may be graciously pleased:
fa) To refrain hereafter from conferring any 'title of honour or titular distinction upon any of your subjects domiciled or ordinarily resident in Canada, save such appellations as are of a professional or vocational character or which appertain to an office.
(b) To provide that appropriate action be taken by legislation or otherwise to ensure the extinction of an hereditary title of honour or titular distinction, and of a dignity or title as a peer of the realm, on the death of a person domiciled or ordinarily resident in Canada at present in enjoyment of an hereditary title of honour or titular distinction, or dignity or title as a peer of the realm, and that thereafter no such title of honour, titular distinction, or dignity or title as a peer of the realm, shall be accepted, enjoyed or used by any person or be recognized.
All of which we humbly pray your majesty to take into your favourable and gracious consideration.
A suggestion was made that the title of "right honourable" and "honourable" be discontinued, but the suggestion did not meet with the approval of the committee.
The house will see from what I have read that the question which was of importance in connection with what the Prime Minister of Great Britain had in his mind was as to whether or not Mr. Bennett might be regarded as being "domiciled or ordinarily resident" in Canada. My attention was drawn by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to the fact that Mr. Bennett had been a resident

of the United Kingdom for some time, and had permanently established himself in England, and did not consider himself as a resident of Canada, that he had abandoned his domicile in Canada and become domiciled and ordinarily resident in Great Britain, and therefore, in the opinion of the Prime Minister's advisers in the United Kingdom, any recommendation by him would not fall within the terms of the 1919 resolution of the House of Commons of Canada. It was added that Mr. Bennett had expressed his intention both in Canada and in Great Britain to live in England for the remainder of his life, and therefore that he could now rightly be regarded as falling outside the turns of the resolution as regards honours, and as a person who could properly be recommended for the award of an honour in Great Britain. In reply to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom I said that I had no observations to make on what he had in mind, but I added that I was sure that Mr. Bennett's own statement would be accepted as a complete answer to any question arising out of the resolution of the Canadian House of Commons of 1919, as to whether or not he is to be regarded as domiciled or ordinarily resident in Canada.
I was also advised of the intention of His Majesty the King to invite the Hon. Vincent Massey to become a member of His Majesty's Privy Council in the United Kingdom, and of the intention of the Prime Minister of Great Britain to make the necessary submission. I was asked specifically whether I would approve the appointment. I replied I would approve most cordially of the appointment should it be made. I may add that I think the appointment has met with high approval in all parts of our dominion.


An hon. MEMBER:: What about the other one?


Mr. STIRLING:: Would the Prime Minister be good enough to lay on the table copies of all correspondence pertaining to Right Hon. Mr. Bennett's appointment?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I may say to my hon. friend who is leading the opposition that the correspondence is marked confidential. I have given to the house that part of it which I think is pertinent and I can assure him that there is nothing else in the correspondence which I believe the house would wish to know, though there are references to some matters which I think possibly Mr. Bennett himself and others would prefer to have remain confidential at least for the present.

Supply-Labour-Relief Commitments



WOMEN IN WAR WORK


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Some days ago the hon. member for Parkdale (Mr. Bruce) asked me a question as to the alleged refusal to have a permit granted to some ladies in Toronto who were anxious to cross to the United Kingdom to offer their services in connection with the Canadian Red Cross transport work. At the time ihe application was received there was nothing to indicate that the ladies who were applying for permission to proceed overseas were members of the Toronto detachment of the Canadian Red Cross transport service. The application came simply under their own names. When it was ascertained, after the hon. member for Parkdale drew my attention to the matter, that it was in connection with the transport service that the application had been made, the government immediately took steps to see that the necessary permission would be granted. The only reason for which it had been refused was the order in council which applies to individuals and which prohibits women from travelling to the European war zone unless granted special exemption.
The question of granting permission to Canadian women desiring to serve in this and similar organizations has recently been taken up with the government of the United Kingdom and tentative arrangements have been made as to the conditions under which women would be accepted for engagement. I understand that a representative of the corps has arrived in Canada to look into the question of securing suitable personnel and it is hoped that arrangements can be worked out under which women who have been accepted for employment in the corps may be granted permisison to proceed to the United Kingdom.
I have just read from the communication which I sent to the hon. member for Parkdale a day or two ago in order that he might understand the situation. There is every desire on the part of the government of Canada to see that women are given the fullest opportunity to participate in all phases of war work in which it may be thought advisable and helpful for them to take part.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Vien in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR

[Stage Direction]
109.	Special service. To provide for commitments under relief settlement agreements with the provinces, $75,000.
To provide for contributions to youth training programme, $1,500,000.
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: The first of these amounts is to provide assistance for relief. I do not quite understand why we should have any relief at the present time, but the fact is that we have it. There has been a national registration in Canada and the government ought to have all the statistics available by now, and ought to be able to put every man, woman and child in the proper place so that a maximum war effort may be attained. I am going to make another plea for the assistance which was asked for by the board of education in Toronto.
I have here, as I have no doubt the minister has, photographs of the work that has been done at the central technical school in Toronto. The lads who go to that school are drawn not only from Toronto but from outside places as well, and it is only right that the government should give some assistance to the board. It is hardly fair that all the burden should fall on the taxpayers of the city. The minister has said that he cannot hold out much hope, but I certainly think that at a time like this the government should not worry about establishing a precedent in order to give this assistance to the board.
And now a few words with regard to the question of labour organization. I suggest that the government should do everything it can to assist workmen at this time to organize, but it certainly is not doing so. We know what the situation is in connection with some government companies-the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and Federal Aircraft Limited. The men have 'been told they are not allowed to organize. We must remember that they wanted to organize under the American Federation of Labor and the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada, which are recognized organizations, and in my opinion it is their right so to organize. An opinion was obtained from the Department of Justice which the Minister of Munitions and Supply read not long ago:
Your corporation is, in many respects, in the position of a department of the government and I would not think that the board of governors or the general manager would have the authority to enter into such an agreement which would restrict the authority of the corporation to act as freely as the government itself in all matters relating to its own employees.
May I point out that when we ask for any information with respect to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation-


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. The question of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation was taken up last night on estimates then before the committee. The committee is now on item 109, to provide for commitments under relief settlement agreements with the provinces, and
4008	COMMONS
Supply-Labour-Relief Commitments
I would point out that we must, if we desire to finish some time, stick to the items under discussion.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I wished to discuss under this item a few questions with respect to labour. It is about the only item under which I can do it. I would be very brief.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member might find some appropriate item under labour.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I suppose I could do it under youth training. But if I might have the indulgence of the committee I should like to finish my argument.


Thomas Vien: I would ask the hon. member to wait until we come to item 112, and we can see whether his remarks fall within the scope of that item.


Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Minister of Labour):: When the house rose last night I was about to make a statement in answer to a question raised by the hon. member for Mackenzie and the hon. member for Rose-town-Biggar. I stated that Saskatchewan is not under the relief settlement plan. In one sense that statement is correct, but it might be misleading. When the relief act was passed in 1932, Saskatchewan, with all the other provinces except Prince Edward Island, was covered by an agreement in the matter of land settlement. In 1934 the situation became very serious on account of the drought there, and Saskatchewan was taken out entirely from the relief settlement act and a special vote placed in the Department of Agriculture estimates under which I believe some 900 families were settled in the northern part of the province. To that the dominion contributed the usual one-third and the province and municipalities contributed accordingly.
The suggestion was made that we should endeavour to transfer some of the surplus labour from that province to other provinces where there is a much greater demand. Two steps have been taken. In the first place a vote was passed for the province of Ontario, where they alleged a shortage of agricultural labour, of $60,000, to which the province is contributing dollar for dollar, in order to obtain such labour from areas in Canada in which there is a surplus of agricultural labour and move it into sections in which there is a demand for agricultural labour. That applies to only one phase. In addition it has been suggested, I think by the hon. member for Mackenzie, that there is a surplus of industrial labour as well in Saskatchewan. Heretofore it has been somewhat difficult to transfer that surplus to points at which the manufacture is carried on.
[The Chairman.]
Let me be quite frank; it is of course desirable that the plants be taken there, but that seems to be extremely difficult, if not impossible. The employment officers have, as the hon. member knows, been under the control and direction of the provinces. On July 1, under the terms of the Unemployment Insurance Act, the employment offices will come under the control of the dominion. In other words I think that we can work out, through the employment offices, a coordinated scheme which will carry out the idea which the hon. member expressed. At the present time it is the intention to open employment offices in Saskatchewan at Moose Jaw, North Battleford, Prince Albert, Regina, and Saskatoon. These will be principal offices. But in addition we shall have suboffices, and I am hopeful that use could be made of the national registration and of those employment offices to endeavour to draw upon that reservoir of surplus and in some cases skilled industrial labour which it is suggested exists in Saskatchewan.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
110.	Special. To provide for contributions to plans for rehabilitation of unemployed higher age persons, $125,000.
Mr. GILLIS:: The regulations with regard
to youth training, with particular reference to plans for rehabilitation of unemployed higher age persons, are somewhat vague. Will the minister explain just what these plans are, and what amount of this appropriation has been apportioned to each province?


Norman Alexander McLarty: No apportionment has
yet been made. The agreements are not completed.


Clarence Gillis: What are the regulations
with respect to the training of unemployed higher age persons? I havo had many letters of inquiry from unemployed men who have reached say fifty years of age and find it impossible to get into industry. They are prepared to make some contribution and want to know how to go about taking advantage of any government provision with respect to training for men in that age group.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I do not believe there
are any special regulations applying to men in that age group. They are eligible for the war emergency training that is being given in that class. For instance, in April, 29 per cent of the trainees were over thirty years of age, but I have no break-down as to the number that would be over fifty. The thing for them to do is to apply just as any other trainees do. A large percentage are of course

Supply-Labour
returned soldiers, which would indicate that a considerable percentage would be around fifty years of age.


Clarence Gillis: This matter was discussed at some length on the pensions committee. One of the officials in charge of this work, one of those who circulate throughout industry endeavouring to establish closer cooperation between industry and those responsible for laying down this training scheme, pointed out that there was considerable difficulty in securing men trained in shipbuilding, for example, and they were having difficulty in securing the cooperation of those engaged in the industry in the inauguration of some plan that would be workable.
It was pointed out that in Nova Scotia there is a large number of plants which are perhaps not large enough to engage in the turning out of boats of the size required for war work. Apparently they are making very little contribution to the war effort, and there is a serious shortage of men skilled in that trade. Would it be possible for the government to make use of these smaller plants by setting them up as training centres for shipbuilding?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I shall be glad to have
that matter looked into.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
111.	Special. To provide for relief projects (revote), $2,722,700.
Mr. NICHOLSON:: The vote this year is
reduced from the 120,000,000 appropriated last year; and in last year's estimates there was a reduction from $27,000,000 to $20,000,000. How is this amount to be spent? The minister said last night that in the event of Saskatchewan being unable to finance her relief undertakings to those who have been reestablished under the land settlement scheme, credit will be given so that loans can be made from the federal treasury to see that at least people have enough to eat.


Norman Alexander McLarty: This item is simply a
revote to cover accounts already incurred in connection with direct relief. I might add that I believe the hon. member for Mackenzie would do better to consult the Minister of Finance in the matter of provincial loans, rather than the Minister of Labour.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
112.	Special. To provide for administration expenses generally, including temporary appointments which may require to be made for such purposes notwithstanding anything contained in the Civil Service Act:
LTnemployment relief and youth training, $97,936.
National registration, $33,000.
Comptroller of the treasury, $18,000.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Perhaps I can make my remarks on this item.


Thomas Vien: If they are relevant to the item.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: This item has to do with administration, and certainly my remarks have to do with the administration of the department.


Thomas Vien: This is for administration in connection with unemployment relief and youth training, national registration and the comptroller of the treasury.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: It is to provide for administration expenses generally.


Thomas Vien: Very well.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I read the opinion of the Department of Justice with respect to the right of the men employed by the broadcasting corporation, Federal Aircraft, and so on, to organize. I do not agree with that opinion; I think it is perfect nonsense that this stand should be taken. When we ask for any information with respect to the internal workings of the broadcasting corporation we are told that it is a separate corporation, and we cannot get that information. If it is a separate corporation for that purpose surely it must be a separate corporation to the extent of permitting these men to organize. Employees of the Canadian National Railways, of the Post Office Department, of the printing bureau and other branches are organized; why cannot these men organize? This is the sort of thing that causes unrest as far as labour is concerned.
I agree with Mr. Ralph Bell, director of aircraft production, that industry must bear no small part of the blame for the present attitude of Canadian labour; and certainly the government is not blameless. This is the time for employers to assist their employees in organizing. It is all very well to say that there is no unrest, that everything is fine. That is true; in some of these plants the employees are well looked after, but is it suggested that these labour organizations should be made up only of employees who are dissatisfied with their jobs? I call now on employers and employees to get busy and settle all the unrest what does exist in connection with labour. There has been a general surrender of the rights of the individual, both here and in Great Britain, but we must be sure that these rights will be returned to the individual after the war is over. They cannot be permanently taken away from the people without their consent.
We must remember that this is a life and death struggle. I would remind hon. members of what Mr. Roosevelt said in one of his speeches, that the issue is one of freedom or
Supply-Labour

slavery, that to-day we cannot have struggles between capital and capital, between labour and labour, or between capital and labour. We should also remember what was said by Mr. Bevin, the minister of labour in England, that anyone who promotes a lock-out or a strike, except after exhausting every means of settling the difference, is a traitor. The manufacturers have the right to belong to any organization they wish; so should labour. It would be better for labour if we could get things down to a simpler basis and have all the labour organizations more or less under one head. One of our difficulties to-day-


Thomas Vien: Order. We discussed general labour policies on the item covering the general administration of the department. Later we discussed the question of unionism and the set-up of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, under the appropriate items in the estimates. Now we are on item 112, which is to provide for administration expenses generally, including temporary appointments which may require to be made, with respect to unemployment relief, youth training, national registration and the comptroller of the treasury. If it is the unanimous wish of the committee that the hon. gentleman should have leave to discuss general labour policies, personally I am quite satisfied; I am in the hands of the committee. But I cannot apply the rules to one hon. member and refuse to apply them to others. I have to be fair and reasonable to all hon. members, and I am sure the hon. gentleman will appreciate my difficulty if I refuse to apply rule 58, paragraph (2). Unless the hon. gentleman secures the unanimous consent of the committee I must rule that he is out of order.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I thought I would have an opportunity to say what I have to say in a few words on this administration item.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Thomas Vien: There were two other opportunities for any such discussion. If we should now revert to items already passed, how could I refuse the same privilege to other hon. members? Of course I am in the hands of the committee, if that is its wish.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I do not want any special privileges, Mr. Chairman.


Thomas Vien: Then I am afraid the hon. gentleman is out of order.


Mr. GREEN:: This item is partly for the administration of youth training. In this connection we were told a few days ago in the pensions committee that there was some
(Mr. Douglas G. Ross.]
difficulty in connection with setting up schools on the Pacific coast to help train men for shipbuilding. That evidence was given by Mr. Crawford, who I believe is-


Norman Alexander McLarty: He is director of plant training.


Howard Charles Green: I think that situation is sufficiently important to '"arrant an explanation by the minister. Mr. Crawford said the shipbuilding yards on the Pacific coast were not desirous of having the government set up training schools, from which we took it that they did not think such schools could be of any use. At the time no mention was made of private schools. There are several private trade schools there which are doing very good work, and whose graduates are being taken on by the shipbuilding yards. There will be so many men needed for shipbuilding that it i3 of the greatest importance that we get away to the right start in training men for that work. I would therefore ask the minister to tell the committee what is the situation at the present time.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I am afraid I will have to give the hon. gentleman the same answer I gave to the hon. member for Cape Breton South, who advocated a similar use of schools in the province of Nova Scotia. All I can say is that I shall be very glad to go into the matter immediately and see what can be done along the lines suggested by the hon. member.


Howard Charles Green: In what way does the government cooperate with the private trade schools? Is there any plan of cooperation at all?


Norman Alexander McLarty: No, we have no plan of cooperation.


Howard Charles Green: Why is that? Might it not be wise, where there are such schools already established, for the government to cooperate with them and perhaps, by arrangement, expand their facilities and have some of the training done in that way?


Norman Alexander McLarty: The suggestion made by the hon. member is well worthy of consideration, and I shall give it immediately.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Sometimes in my constituency I have had trouble in securing employment for skilled workers. I have written to the minister on two occasions in regard to men who were qualified artisans, and who have come to me wanting to know how they could get in these shops or schools as instructors. I have one man in mind who is qualified as an electrical welder, and who also does acetylene welding. He has been trying for the past year to get this kind of employment. I have written the minister on his behalf, and in reply to me the minister

Supply-Pensions and National Health
suggested that I write to Mr. Ross of Calgary, and to a Mr. Henderson of Edmonton. I wrote these two gentlemen on this man's behalf, and also instructed him to write to them. I do not believe I received even an acknowledgment of my letters. He went to see the man at Calgary and also the one at Edmonton, but has been put off from time to time.
Surely there is something wrong. When men come to us as members of parliament and ask how they can get these positions, and we write the minister,-I suggest he is the proper person to whom to write-and he instructs us to approach someone at Edmonton, and there is no result, the persons affected become disgusted. I would not blame them. People go around wanting to know what is the matter with the government, and why there are not jobs for these skilled workmen. I suggest the minister should check up on the men who are supposed to be in charge of these training schools, because, so far as I am concerned, there is no satisfaction when one tries to get a man a position.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I do not recall the name of the person to whom the hon. member has referred, but if he will send me a memorandum I shall be glad to check it up.


Clarence Gillis: In items 110 and 111 we make provision for youth training and for relief. The minister has said he will be glad to take into consideration the extension of training and the provision of more facilities. I notice however that in these items the amounts are substantially decreased. While the minister may be desirous of improving our present facilities, I suggest that he will not do so by cutting down the appropriation. In view of the fact that provision for youth training has been made in votes 109 and 110, and that the government has discontinued any connection with unemployment relief, why is it necessary to have an appropriation of $97,936, and how is it to be used? If we are not in the relief field, and if we have provided for youth training in earlier items, why is there need for this additional amount? If there is a need, how is it to be used?


Norman Alexander McLarty: The reductions in these estimates may be misleading. There is an appropriation in the war appropriation measure for about $4,300,000, which makes up the difference. So far as the items for unemployment relief and youth training are concerned, the general supervision of war emergency training and youth training, all of which is devoted to war purposes, is still under that branch.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: One of the chief recommendations made by the war expenditures committee in the United Kingdom, and one from which a great deal of good resulted, was that there should be a national registration of all technically trained men in the United Kingdom, and that a national register should be set up listing the men whose services, as occasion arose, might be required.
I have personal knowledge of men in western Canada who are trained mining engineers. Men are graduates of recognized universities,, and yet for the time being they are out of employment, and their services are in no way being used. Then, there are numbers of mechanics throughout western Canada who during the last war devoted themselves to mechanical work in connection with the production of munitions and the like. Their services have not as yet been utilized. What is being done to mobilize the scientifically and technically trained men in Canada? I have in mind engineers, and the like, who would be willing at this time to give their services to the state in return for a reasonable compensation.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Some time ago under the chairmanship of Mr. Little we set up a wartime bureau of technical personnel. A vote of $41,000 was included in the war appropriation for that purpose, and it will probably have to be increased. The bureau is making just such a survey as has been suggested by the hon. member for Lake Centre.


John George Diefenbaker: How many have
registered so far?	'


Norman Alexander McLarty: I am afraid I cannot
answer that question at the moment, but I shall supply the information to the hon. member.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
202. Departmental administration, $114,460.
Howard Charles Green: When the civil service estimates were before the committee I referred to men in the Department of Pensions and National Health, permanent employees, returned men and married, who are employed at the rate of $60 a month, with a $5 bonus. I am informed that in one city a man drawing that small salary is in charge of investigations under the War Veterans' Allowance Act. Perhaps the same condition exists in other centres. In some instances these men are training temporary clerks who are to carry out such investigations and who, as temporary clerks, are drawing practically twice the salary. Why does that situation exist? Is there some way in which it can be remedied?
4012	COMMONS
Supply-Pensions and National Health
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): I understand that this matter has been taken up departmentally, but we have been delayed in regard to definite action by a treasury board regulation and by a definite instruction from the civil service commission applying to all departments of government.
. Mr. GREEN: How long has that condition existed?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: For one year, roughly speaking.


Howard Charles Green: In British Columbia the
minimum wage set by provincial law for a stenographer is $65, yet there we have married men employed by the dominion government and receiving salaries of $60 per month. That is quite unjustifiable. I should like to have some assurance that the situation will be remedied.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I can assure my hon. friend that it is not what might be called a departmental fault. It has been taken up repeatedly and will be taken up again.


Clarence Gillis: It would not be necessary to say many of the things that I should like to say at this time if the minister could assure me that the report of the special committee will come before the house for adoption or consideration.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Does my hon. friend refer to the report tabled yesterday?


Clarence Gillis: Was it?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: The minister is in charge of air raid precaution work. There have been some developments along this line since the subject was last discussed in the committee. Perhaps he could tell us what the situation is at the present time.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Strictly speaking this discussion is not in order because, as my hon. friend knows, it comes under the war appropriation. An item of $250,000 was voted this year for air raid precaution work. Broadly speaking, the situation is that five provinces are organized and organization is proceeding rapidly in the Ottawa district and in Ontario. Doctor Gliddon is the federal air raid precautions officer, and he is primarily responsible for equipment and the issuance of such pamphlets and regulations as are thought necessary. Black-outs have been arranged in

various parts of Canada, and they have been very successful, especially in the city from which my hon. friend comes.


Howard Charles Green: From which we both come.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. There is to be one in Toronto on June 18, and Montreal had one last week. A request has been made from Hamilton and,, generally speaking, there has been a marked revival of interest in air raid precaution work. The contribution, if I may use that word, that we are making is mainly by way of instruction and cooperation and the providing of equipment. In connection with compensation, the committee upon which my hon. friend served made a recommendation that compensation be paid to those engaged in air raid precaution work. I have every hope that that will be implemented.


Howard Charles Green: Has the government taken any further steps to provide establishments in the different centres in which equipment may be stored? The minister will remember we asked about this some months ago and he said that if Doctor Gliddon recommended it, such steps would be taken.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I remember that quite well. So far as I am aware, no specific recommendations have been made in that regard. Many communities have made provision for these centres. If the responsible officers find that it is a duty we should carry out, I shall be glad to see that it is done.


Howard Charles Green: Recommendation 12 of the report of the select committee on pensions reads:
That by appropriate measures, the government make provision for compensation to the members of the auxiliary services who are serving the armed forces in an actual theatre of war, and their dependents, comparable to that provided for members of the armed forces.
As I understand it, the men serving overseas with the Young Men's Christian Association, the Salvation Army, the Knights of Columbus, and the Canadian Legion are not covered by the Canadian pension act and no provision is made to provide for compensation for disability, or compensation to their dependents in case of death. I understand that this is making it extremely difficult for these organizations to get men to go overseas, particularly men who are married. Is the government prepared to make provision to cover cases of this type? For all other purposes these men are treated as though they were members of the forces, but when it comes to compensation for disability or death, they are considered as being outsiders.

Supply-Pensions-War Veterans Allowance


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I cannot assure my hon. friend that the compensation which may be provided for the personnel to whom he has referred will be exactly the same as is paid to those who are duly attested to his majesty's forces. I took up this matter actively last December and an interdepartmental committee was appointed some three or four weeks ago. They have made a report and the matter is now before the treasury board for consideration. I can assure my hon. friend that so far as my influence goes, it will be for provision to be made in connection with these cases.


Howard Charles Green: In the meantime there have been actual deaths.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: One case that I know of.


Howard Charles Green: Has that been provided for?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not so far, but I feel absolutely assured that it will be adequately provided for.


Howard Charles Green: Why cannot these men be
treated for pension purposes on the same basis as the men in the forces?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: One reason is that they are not attested as such. Another is that they are not medically examined for the higher categories which are requisite for active service.


Howard Charles Green: Could that not be overcome by having them attested and by insisting upon their being medically fit for service overseas? I believe in the last war these men were all regularly attested.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That might interfere with many of the cases known to my hon. friend and myself. Many veterans of the last war are now overseas and doing excellent work. If my hon friend's suggestion were carried out they might be debarred from serving in England. I think the situation will be met if we provide reasonable and equitable compensation in the case of injury or death.


Howard Charles Green: Are not the great majority
of these men really in a medical category that would entitle them to serve overseas?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have no information on that point; I could not possibly have it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
205. Pensions branch. War veterans' allowance board, $192,565.
Mr. MacNICOL:: Has any definite conclusion been arrived at in connection with the payment of pension to widows of soldiers
who received a pension during their lifetime but not sufficient to entitle their widows to one?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The matter was comprehensively reviewed by the committee whose report has been tabled, and an able presentation was made by my hon. friend with reference to the matter. I am not in position at the moment to announce any government policy. The report asks for further consideration of these cases. As my hon. friend knows, during the last few days I have had no opportunity of even discussing the report with my colleagues. The report will be considered between now and when the house meets in November, and in due course the government's policy will be announced. In my judgment this is not so much a question of pension administration, or something that would come under the War Veterans' Allowance Act; it is really a matter of social legislation, a measure of social security which later may commend itself to the government or to the house.


Howard Charles Green: Other suggestions with
regard to the War Veterans' Allowance Act were made by that special committee. For example, one was that the men who had served in the Riel rebellion should be eligible for war veterans' allowance. Another recommendation was that a portion of the allowance should be made payable to a recipient when he is in hospital. Will there be an opportunity at the next session to consider amendments to this act?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: All I can say to my hon. friend is that during the recess I shall go through the report very carefully. I shall take up with the government the various recommendations, and government policy will be announced with respect to them as soon as we reconvene.


Clarence Gillis: There is another matter which is not mentioned in the report. I made the request that recipients of the war veterans' allowance be permitted to earn per annum the equivalent of the maximum of the allowance. I stated at that time that it would not mean any additional cost to the country. I think the minister remembers that discussion.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, last year.


Clarence Gillis: I am disappointed that there is not something in the report with regard to that, and perhaps I am somewhat responsible. Will the minister give consideration to the suggestion? The chairman of the committee made the statement at that time that it would
4014	COMMONS
Supply-Pensions-War Veterans Allowance
involve additional expenditure, because of the fact that in some cities men employed on elevators, receiving below the maximum amount permitted under the act, would be in a position' to claim sufficient allowance from war veterans' allowance to bring their wages up in accordance with the maximum amount allowed, namely, $480 for a married man and $240 for a single man. What I had in mind was this, and I think that in the great majority of cases to which it would apply it would mean no additional expenditure. Men who were employed in industry, having had these years of war service, followed by years of employment in heavy industry, are likely to break down for a time. Take the case of a man in that situation at fifty years of age, which is about the average present age of the ex-service man. He has a rest for six months or a year, and rebuilds himself to the point where he can do a little of something. But he is restricted to earning just half what the war veterans' allowance permits him. I do not think there would be anything wrong with granting sufficient latitude to those who administer the act that in such cases, after investigation, men should not be prevented from earning a certain amount of money to augment the war veterans' allowance. in some occupation which was not their previous occupation. It seems to me to be a matter of administration; I do not think there is any necessity of changing the act. There could be an understanding that the board could deal with cases such as I have described. I am not speaking of the man who is working for $240 or $480 a year: he is not working at all, he is on a pension; there is something wrong with his head if he will work for that amount. But in the cases I have described, many men I know who are receiving a war veterans' allowance have the feeling, "If I go out and try to earn $200 it means a reexamination of the case and the possibility of disturbing the arrangement"; and as a consequence, men who really could be doing something are sitting at home and deteriorating. If the minister would make an investigation and have some understanding with the board along the lines I have suggested, it w'ould eliminate a lot of resentment.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed the difficulty is that to some extent at least the regulations are based on those of the old age pensions legislation. There is voted every year by this parliament $32,000,000 for old age pension purposes, and this vote is about $8,000,000, and the idea has been to keep a balance of benefit between the two systems. Whether my hon. friend's [Mr. Gillis.l
suggestion can be carried out I cannot at the moment say, but certainly I shall be glad to consider it carefully.


Howard Charles Green: When the minister is considering the War Veterans' Allowance Act during the adjournment, will he also take into consideration the advisability or otherwise of including under that act men who served in the imperial forces who have been in Canada for, say, a period of fifteen years? I believe recommendations were made to the committee that those who came to this country before 1930 should be covered. Others said that they should have been here fifteen years, and some argued that the minimum period should be twenty years. I would ask the minister to take into consideration the case of these imperial veterans.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. As my hon. friend is aware, strong recommendations were made-by the Canadian Legion in particular-in regard to these men. I can hold out no definite promise, but I shall be very glad to take my hon. friend's observations into consideration.


Howard Charles Green: There was not time to consider the question thoroughly in the committee, and for that reason we find no recommendation in its report. But this is a very important matter, and should be given consideration.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: There was one remark made by the minister to which I should like to give a little attention. As I gathered it, he conveyed the idea that the fault with respect to our war veterans' allowance is not that the War Veterans' Allowance Act is not sufficiently generous, but that our other social legislation is deficient. I think I gathered that aright. Well, I believe we ought to take for granted as a basis of our thinking this statement, that our social legislation generally in Canada is deficient. For example, I understand that New Zealand grants mothers' maternity benefits for each child. I understand also that New Zealand is granting the old age pension at the age of sixty. I have not had an opportunity of verifying those two statements, but I think they are correct.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: On a contributory basis.


John Horne Blackmore: Yes-well, on any basis whatever. The simple fact remains that in Canada we cannot get it on any basis. These are only two examples of the way in which Canada is lagging far behind other progressive civilized countries in the matter of social services.

Supply-Pensions,-Veterans
It is not our business on this occasion to discuss social services, but our concern is to see to it that the widows and dependents of the men who fought or who served for Canada in the last war are not permitted to suffer. If the trouble is that our social legislation is deficient, we must not make that an excuse. I would say that the minister should demand, with all the emphasis of which his being is capable-and that is no small amount-that until such time as the social legislation of Canada is extended to the point where the widows and the dependents of our veterans are cared for, the War Veterans' Allowance Act simply must be made more generous until it provides for these people- every one of them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
206. Direct payments to veterans and dependents. European war pensions, $39,600,000.
Howard Charles Green: Would the minister tell us how many applicants there were for pension during the last fiscal year? I am referring to figures made up in such a way as that, for example, in 1938-39 there were 10,109 applications and in 1937-38 there were 10,450. I have not the figures for 1939-40 or 1940-41.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There were first hearings in the last year: 6,343 granted, 12,271 not granted, making a total of 18,614.


Howard Charles Green: How many of those were for men of the old war, and how many for men of the new war?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: All from the old war.


Howard Charles Green: That seems to be a great increase in applications. Perhaps the minister is referring to some different set of figures.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In the actual year from April 1, 1940, to March 31, 1941, the total was 1,772. I was taking the figures from the amendments to the act in 1936, the total being 18,614. The total actually in the year was 1,772.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
208. Direct payments to veterans and dependents. Unemployment assistance, $1,100,000.
Howard Charles Green: There is a considerable reduction in this item. Has there been a reduction in the number of returned men getting unemployment assistance?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: A very definite reduction, caused principally by improvement in employment conditions, and also by a number of enlistments in the veterans' guard and other organizations.


Howard Charles Green: How many men have been granted assistance?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The number is 6,302.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
210. Services to veterans and dependents. Care of patients, $2,923,028.
Howard Charles Green: In the vote this year there is nothing for probational training allowance. There has been a vote for that work for several years now. Why has it been deleted this year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The vote as such is not shown, but the same provision is made under hospital and other allowances for the same purposes.


Howard Charles Green: The work is being carried on?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: The same thing applies to several votes. The vote for sheltered employment, which in the last estimates amounted to about $72,000, has been deleted. There was another vote for continuation of projects or schemes commenced by the veterans' assistance commission. Last year that amounted to about $70,000 and it has been taken from the estimates this year. Why is that?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The provision for poppy manufacturing is made under the care of patients vote. Many of the other projects which were in existence since the report came in have been abandoned because they were unsound economically and, although their purpose was laudable and justifiable at the outset, it was the opinion of those who were advising me that they should be closed up and that we should direct our efforts to other methods of assistance in the days to come. The vetcraft shops have also been closed up. The workshop in Victoria is carried on by the Red Cross, who receive buildings rent-free from the dominion government.


Howard Charles Green: What about the projects that were recommended by the various veterans' assistance committees? Have they all been abandoned?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Some are being continued under the local committees functioning in the various localities.


Howard Charles Green: Which ones are continuing?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Windsor, Toronto-
Supply-Pensions,-Veterans


Howard Charles Green: Is Montreal discontinued?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. Winnipeg is having special arrangements made with respect to a scheme of local land settlement, and I believe Regina is carrying on. It is all done with the concurrence of the local committees in charge.


Howard Charles Green: Is the government not putting up any of the funds for the projects?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Howard Charles Green: Who finds the money?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is done through funds already provided and by local financing by these committees, and they have assured us that in these cases they are able to do it.


Howard Charles Green: What about the different offices under the veterans' assistance commission? Have they all been closed or are they being amalgamated with the new dominion employment offices, or what is being done about them? At one time there were seventeen or eighteen across Canada and the government paid all tKe office expenses including salaries of the secretaries in charge. Have all these been closed?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They have not been paid from the old vote since March 31, but provision has been made from funds that were made available by parliament for the veterans' welfare division until such time as the new organization is created, which will be within the next week or two.


Howard Charles Green: What is the intention with regard to these secretaries? Are they to be taken into some other branch of the government service?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is entirely a matter for the civil service commission. If these men applied and have qualified, then on the strict basis of merit they will be taken in; otherwise they will not.


Howard Charles Green: The offices are to be closed?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: New offices are to be organized in conjunction with the new employment service.


Howard Charles Green: That is, the veterans officials will be in the employment offices?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: There will be no veterans' assistance commission offices any longer?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is right.


Mr. DONNELLY:: I notice that the total for the pensions branch amounts this year to $53,921,407. Since the great war, what is the total amount that has been paid under all these various sections?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The figure was given in committee the other day-$1,233,474,172.26.


Howard Charles Green: This item is for care of patients. There is an increase this year of about $70,000. Have any steps been taken yet to provide for the reconditioning of men who are discharged from the forces as medically unfit? For example, for men who might be nursed back to health so that they could be used in the services in a lower category.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend is familiar with the various orders in council dealing with the treatment of those discharged from the present war. The most recent one provides free treatment for those who are in such financial circumstances as to require it, and they get that treatment if they apply within one year after discharge.


Howard Charles Green: If they are in need of what is known as active remedial treatment?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They get free treatment within one year if they need it financially. There must be the basis of need for active remedial treatment, but otherwise there is no limitation. All the benefits of treatment of the old war are being applied to those who are discharged from the present war. With regard to treatment for those with special meritorious service, class 18, there would not be any yet qualified for it but there will be some day, and they will automatically come under the regulations on October 5 applying to soldiers of the new war.


Howard Charles Green: Would it not be possible for our pension hospitals to recondition many of these men so that they could be used again in the forces? At present they are discharged and I think there is great wastage of man power in that way. The Minister of National Defence said last night that over
32,000	men had been discharged since the beginning of the war. I forget how many thousands were discharged as medically unfit, but approximately half. I am quite sure that many of these men could have been reconditioned if they had been treated in our pension hospitals. Now that we are having such difficulty in getting recruits I suggest that it would be worth while to attempt something along that line.

Supply-Health Branch


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I understand there is reference to that in the report laid on the table. Before that report was made I personally took steps to discuss this question with the three service ministers and to study reconditioning from two angles -in the first place, reconditioning of the men rejected on account of unfitness. That is an important point.


Howard Charles Green: Is that done now?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is being considered now by an interdepartmental committee.


Howard Charles Green: But no such reconditioning
is done now?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not as far as this department is concerned. I cannot speak for the defence services. Of course, there is reconditioning after discharge, of those who could not be considered as fit to rejoin but must be reestablished in civil life and industry.


Howard Charles Green: I think there has been a tendency in the defence services to get rid of a man once he is not A-l, and the time has now come when that policy can be no longer followed. We must make more use of these men, even though they are not in the first category.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I cannot speak for the policy followed by the services but I am inclined to agree with my hon. friend that as the demands of the war grow more intense we may have to relax some of these stringent rules. In the meantime I have sent the hon. member for Mackenzie an excellent article on social security in New Zealand.


Mrs. CASSELMAN:: I would urge that the individual be considered wherever it is possible along the lines just now mentioned, and also that the women and children receive special consideration at times when their cases are exceptional. I believe the women need right now, perhaps more than they ever did, the comfort and encouragement which would come from knowing that the individual is not lost in the mass. Many cases have been brought to my attention already, although I am very new at this; perhaps these people think I might be able to do something just because I am new, or perhaps they are giving mfe the old ca^es that have resisted for some time, thinking that a new person might do something with them. But there is probably a tendency to allow no exceptions to the rules. I know we must have rules, but sometimes exceptional circumstances do arise, and circumstances alter cases. I urge that the individual case receive consideration, and in some cases perhaps even favourable consideration.
May I also say how very grateful I am for the warm reception and welcome given to me by the house. I have been welcomed by hon. members on both sides of the house, and I should like to thank them. I should also like to thank hon. members for the regard they have expressed to me for my husband. I feel that I am undertaking this responsibility with Ms full knowledge and approval. I cannot, however, speak much of that. I should like to think of myself as in no sense an ornament to this house but rather as a useful working member with sufficient elasticity to follow the principle of give and take.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May I be permitted to congratulate the hon. member (Mrs. Casselman) upon the fact that her maiden speech in this house was made for such a splendid humanitarian cause as that to which she referred, the cause of widows and children and those who are confronted with some of the hard conditions of life. I am sure that her contribution to the discussions and decisions of this house in the years to come will be very valuable. May I assure her that this year the power of discretion under the pensions act has been broadened more than ever before, and that in some of the regulations of the department there is a wide power of discretion. So long as I am in charge of the department I shall endeavour to administer these regulations with all the humanity and sympathy possible.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
215. Health branch. Health branch administration, $49,570.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I have here publication No. 21 of the Department of Pensions and National Health dealing with the question of housing. I should like to draw the attention of the committee to a couple of important sentences:
Dark, gloomy, insanitary hovels, which submerge the thoughts of their inmates to the level of the beast are not conducive to health or later to good citizenship; moreover, under such conditions sickness and poverty occupy so much energy and thought as to preclude much effort for better things.
The development of good citizens in a country like Canada is of the greatest importance, since the future of the nation depends on the physical, mental and moral health of the young people. Good housing therefore becomes an important means towards that end.
I should like to commend this department for concerning itself with this very important
Supply-Health Branch

national problem. I shall not take time to discuss peace-time aspects of it, but would ask the minister whether his department has been used by the newly-organized war-time housing corporation in this particular field of engineering.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Only so far as the author of that pamphlet is on an advisory committee which I believe gives advice and assistance to those in charge of the war-time housing programme.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I understood that the services of this department had not been used by war-time housing. I know there are other engineers in Canada who are quite capable of doing the work which has been done by this department, but I submit that at thi3 time when every individual should be doing necessary work we should not have overlapping, we should not have new engineers assigned to do work that has already been done by this department. I suggest that the minister draw the attention of war-time housing to the fact that he has a department with a staff and with information that should be of value to war-time housing in the work they are undertaking. Would it be considered presumptuous on the part of the minister to do that?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be very glad to draw it to their attention. Our function is purely advisory; when we are called in for consultation. Not only in regard to this particular project but in regard also to munitions projects generally, we advise and send our men there for inspection to see that health conditions are being observed. This feature of the work I believe is functioning very successfully.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: But war-time housing are now engaged in housing projects in a number of places in Canada; they should not wait until they are half through before consulting this department.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If they do not come to us we will go to them.


John Horne Blackmore: At the outset may
I also congratulate the hon. member for Edmonton East (Mrs. Casselman) on the fact that her first speech here was delivered in the interests of the suffering, among whom unfortunately women and children in this country form a large number. We have neglected our health problem in Canada far too much in the past; we are paying a fearful price right now for our neglect, and I am afraid we have only just begun to pay.

I wish to mention four or five matters which in my opinion should be constantly in the minds of those who are administering our affairs in Ottawa with respect to health. First, I do not believe that the education which our children and people generally receive is adequate to teach them the fundamental principles of health. Of course some may say at once that this is a provincial matter. In Canada virtually all our considerations are affected more or less by the division of responsibilities between the provinces and the dominion. But it must be borne in mind that provincial revenues are definitely limited, and the invasion which is now taking place of the provincial income and corporation tax fields by the dominion will tend to make the matter worse. The result is that if anyone is to take up the slack in the matter of health the dominion government must do it. If, therefore, education for health purposes is not adequate, it must become the concern of this government.
I believe that every year there ought to be a physical examination of every child in our schools at least. I have had a good many years of experience as a teacher and principal in our schools; my life has been largely devoted to the youth of Canada; my heart is drawn to them, and one of the main reasons for my being here is my great interest in the young people growing up in this country. There should be a physical examination every year, if not of those over eighteen years of age certainly of those under eighteen. Obviously many of the parents cannot all provide for such an examination, so that someone must absorb the cost.
I believe there are a great many operations which ought to be performed. The provinces are struggling to take care of this problem; to see that adenoids and tonsils are removed, that tuberculosis is cared for when it develops, that victims of infantile paralysis are reconditioned, and that all serious accidents are looked after. But unquestionably the resources of the provinces are limited.
At the risk of incurring your displeasure, Mr. Chairman, and being called out of order, I should like to refer briefly to the little altercation that developed the other day between myself and the leader of the opposition. The hon. gentleman was insisting that we should see that our contractual obligations were taken care of. I believe that the health of the community, and other similar matters, ought to be taken care of at least to a very great extent, even if as a result we are not able to take care of our contractual obligations. I am not willing to neglect those obligations, but neither am I willing to neglect the sacred

Supply-Health Branch
matters concerning human life and human happiness that go to the well being of a nation.
I believe someone will have to look after those who suffer serious accidents, and so on. Suppose a family is in receipt of the war veterans' allowance, and a child is seriously injured so that as a result he may become a cripple for life. How in the world can that family provide the necessary medical care and pay for the operation that may be required? If the province is unable to do it, and the municipality is unable to do it, who will do it? I believe we as a dominion must take such matters into our consideration and see to it that such matters receive the necessary attention.
Many thousands of children throughout this country suffer from lack of adequate dental care. Such dental care costs money; it costs two dollars to have a tooth removed. Tens of thousands of people in this country live on budgets so limited that the loss of two dollars becomes a calamity. The head of the household and the mother simply do not know what to do when they have that extra expense to meet. As a result thousands of our children are going about with bad teeth, with unfilled teeth, losing their teeth, losing their health, simply because there is not some way of absorbing that cost.
Thousands of children suffer from poor eyesight. They need optical care, but they dare not have their eyes examined; they are unable to obtain glasses. Then if, having secured glasses, they break them, the result is tragic. I have seen children twelve or thirteen years of age break-down and cry because their glasses were destroyed and they knew they would be unable to get the money with which to have them repaired, and they could not go to school and do their work without them. Of course all these things are a part of human life, but we are getting to an age now when, living in a country like ours, children should not have to cry and be broken-hearted because they happened to break their glasses.
These are all matters which come under this item, which has to do with the health of Canada. If the provinces are unable to take care of these matters the dominion must be prepared to do so. I do not like to take up too much of the time of the committee, but someone has to say these things. I was glad to hear the remarks of the hon. member for Edmonton East; I shall listen to her in future with great attention when she deals with humanitarian topics in this house.
Then there is the matter of food. I do not believe we are taking enough care in that regard. I have spoken rather severely about
these things in this house, and at times I have been accused of being extreme. I am sure if the actual facts were made known my remarks would not be found to be in the least extravagant. It is coming to be recognized more and more that the health and well being, the moral tone, the mental tone and everything else about a human being is determined to a very large extent by the food he eats. I have been making inquiries of some of the good housewives in Ottawa in order to ascertain what they believe would be the cost of adequate food to keep a child in good health. They tell me that they cannot possibly figure out any menu providing the fresh vegetables, fresh fruits and other things required for less than $2 a week per person. For a family of five this means S10 a week for food alone, if the children are to be kept in a healthy condition. I am not going to mention clothing, but certainly money will be required for that purpose. Then there is the question of shelter. Hardly anywhere in Canada to-day can anything like an adequate house be procured for less than $10 a month. Food at $10 a week means $40 a month; if you add $10 for shelter, which does not take into account light, water and fuel, much less the occasional repair of a broken window, you have a total of $50 a month in absolutely unavoidable expenses.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If I may interrupt the hon. member for just a second, I would inform him that a conference on nutrition will take place in Ottawa next week. Four surveys have been made already, in Halifax, Quebec, Toronto and Edmonton, and the conference will meet here to consider a campaign of education with reference to the subject the hon. gentleman now is discussing.


John Horne Blackmore: That is very fine; I rejoice to hear that, and I hope when these committees tell the country what has to be done, that it will be done and that we will not be told that there is no money for it.
I was just going on to say that for this family of five the absolutely unavoidable expenses amount to $50 a month. Imagine, if you can, how a family of five can get along on the war veterans' allowance of $40 a month.


An hon. MEMBER:: Carried.


John Horne Blackmore: Oh, no; it is not carried yet. We still have time to do a good deal of serious thinking. Not very long ago when I condemned the Pension Act, which in a way has to do with war veterans' allowance, I had in mind such conditions as these. We
Supply-Health Branch

have placed our people in an impossible position. I know the minister is anxious to do all that can be done; and just to strengthen his hand-because I believe it needs strengthening when he has to deal with some of the other members of the cabinet-I am going to point out that in the United States this year, under the LaFollette-Bulwinkle bill, the federal treasury of the United States is granting $6,500,000 to the states for one item alone. I am not going to mention what that item is, but this amount is being granted in addition to what the states themselves can collect. If Canada should grant as much money, in proportion to population, this year her contribution to our provinces would amount to $650,000-it is at present just nothing. Let hon. members just take a glance at the very modest sum the minister is permitted to spend, and they will recognize that he is handicapped almost to the point of impotence. Surely conditions in Canada are no better than they are in the United States. If the United States needs such a large amount of money, then surely Canada needs at least a proportionate sum.
I should like to revert for a moment or two to the family of five receiving $40 a month, with an unavoidable expenditure of $50. Is it to be an accepted fact by governing people in Canada that such a family can have no amusement at all, that they cannot have twenty cents to go to a picture show once in a while? Are they to have no culture such as singing lessons, music or dancing lessons? Hon. members will see what we are condemning them to.
Having done that I turn my attention to an article which the minister kindly sent to me. A few moments ago I pointed out that Canada is lagging shamefully in the matter of social legislation. I shall give only the headings in this pamphlet, and I believe they will show Canada's deficiency when compared with her small sister dominion of
New Zealand. The title of the article is "Social security in New Zealand", and the subheadings are "Universal superannuation" -have we that in Canada? Of course we have not. "Age benefits"-have we age benefits? "Widows' benefits, orphans' benefits, family benefits, invalids' benefits, miners' benefits, unemployment benefits, sickness benefits, emergency benefits." I wish I had time to deal in detail with each of those points, but any hon. member who is interested may find the information at page 200 of this little booklet called "The National Health Review," published in October of 1940, by direction of the minister.
May I close what I have said in more or less rambling fashion with an adjuration to the minister to exert himself to the very maximum to get more and more money in this dominion to be spent for the improvement of health conditions of the people of Canada, in widely varied ways. If he will do that he will greatly increase the productive capacity of the country; he will increase its consumptive capacity. He will make the country very much happier, so that it will be much easier to get men to enlist in the army. Those men will fight much more happily when they realize that while they are in the army their people are being cared for at home, and that they will be cared for if anything should happen. In addition to that, when we collide with the enemy we will be strong and confident.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I thank the hon. member for his very constructive suggestions.
Yesterday the hon. member for Cape Breton South discussed the question of silicosis, and the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar asked a question respecting fatal accidents in the mining industry. With the consent of the house I should like to place on Hansard the information on both these subjects. It is as follows:
Fatal Industrial Accidents in Mining Industry Canada
Due to	1936	1937	1938	1939	1940(a) Industrial diseases (predominate-namely, silicosis)	... 8	14	15	22	29(b) Dangerous substances (exclusive of silicosis and includes plosions and gassing)	ex... 25	29	36	25	21(c) Grand total	... 173	198	236	161	160

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
Information respecting incidence of Silicosis, taken from Annual Reports of Provincial Workmen's Compensation Boards
Nova Scotia:
Act amended in 1940 to include silicosis in coal mining.
3 cases were allowed under the act in 1940.
1 of these proved fatal.
A number of cases are still under observation and are slated for reexamination.
New Brunswick:
Not compensable.
Quebec:
No details included in Quebec reports-1939 or 1940.
Ontario:
Total cases
Year	compensated Number fatal
1936	
29	141937	
21	91938	
14	61939	
22	7
Manitoba:
Silicosis not dealt with specifically in 1940 report.
Saskatchewan:
1940-all industrial diseases classed together. One case-not likely silicosis.
Alberta:
No reference to silicosis in 1940 report. British Columbia:
During	1939-6,000	individuals X-rayed
(chest) under requirements of Metalliferous Mines Regulations Act.
113 claims allowed for silicosis from January, 1936, to December, 1938.
*'Pathological, clinical and diagnostic aspects of this disease are now well established"-Dr. Leroy U. Gardner, Director of the Saranac Laboratory for the Study of Silicosis.
Present day control of the problem of silicosis can be effectively brought about by provision of adequate ventilating facilities in mines where silica dust is known to occur.
Consequently, control of silicosis is a responsibility of provincial departments of labour, health, and mines, who administer provincial legislation governing this question at the present time.
The control of this problem is to be brought about by the application of existing knowledge rather than by further research work which, in the absence of application, is of little use.
The inhalation of aluminum dust by miners exposed to silica dust for the purpose of preventing silicosis, has by no means proved efficacious as yet. This method of approach to the problem of controlling silicosis implies the substitution of aluminum dusting for control by ventilating equipment. Ventilating equipment is exceedingly expensive-but has been accepted in American mines as a necessary aspect of cost.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
224. Health branch. Treatment of sick mariners, $206,470.
Mr. HAZEN:: This item was before the
committee at the last session, and I asked the
minister at that time what provision had been made for the dental treatment of mariners.
I point out to him I had been informed that no provision had been made for X-rays for seamen suffering from dental trouble, and that in some cases X-rays were necessary. The minister said the matter had not been brought to his attention before, but that he would look into it and inform me. Has he had an opportunity to do so, and if so what arrangements have been made?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I thought I had sent my hon. friend a letter fully outlining the situation. I took immediate action upon his request, and got immediately from the departmental officers the information desired. I was under the impression that I had sent that information to the hon. member. If I have not done so, then I shall do so immediately. Medical provision is made however for whatever medical officers deem it necessary that mariners should receive.


Douglas King Hazen: Perhaps the minister did send a letter; I may have overlooked it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall make inquiry as to that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
240. Pensions and other benefits. Pensions payable to men on active service, northwest rebellion 1885, and general pensions, $18,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: My question may not be pertinent to the item, but I shall ask it before all the items have passed. Last session the minister intimated that a grant would be placed in the estimates for the dental association. I do not see it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I was once again unsuccessful.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
126. Mines and geology branch. Mineral resources investigations, $394,350.
John Ritchie MacNicol: What progress is the
department making in investigating the production of magnesium metal from dolomite? Ontario is the province in which probably the greatest deposits of the source of magnesium metal are to be found. As the minister probably knows it is a metal lighter than aluminium being only two-thirds of the weight, but has the same tensile strength. While aluminium requires 8 per cent of magnesium metal to give it rigidity, magnesium metal requires 8 per cent of aluminium to eliminate the possibility of fire or explosion from the magnesium metal.

Supply-[DOT]Mines-Geology Branch
I would expect that at. the next session detailed information would be given with respect to the production of magnesium metal in Canada. Recently and for some time past a famous engineer in Hamilton has produced a method of extracting magnesium metal from dolomite. In the area from Niagara falls to lake Huron there are billions of tons of dolomite or limestone ore from which the metal comes. What is the department doing to bring about the production of magnesium metal in Canada?


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Mines and Resources):: The possibilities of these metals are constantly under study by the mines bureau of the department. I am not able at the moment to say just what progress has been made in the process to which my hon. friend alludes, but the question is under continuous consideration. I am just informed that the Aluminum Company of Canada is building a plant up the Gatineau river for the production of magnesium and that tests are being carried on in the laboratory of the mines branch in respect to several deposits to ascertain their quality and possibilities. This is being done at the request of private interests.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has the department been cooperating with the inventors in Hamilton who are now producing the metal?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have been cooperating with them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
131. Mines and geology branch. Drafting and map reproduction, $122,865.
Douglas King Hazen: What is the explanation of the increase of $10,462 in this item?


John Horne Blackmore: I should like to ask the minister something about the iron resources of Canada, and perhaps it may not be considered out of order on this item. Have we plenty of iron in Canada to meet our requirements if all deposits were fully developed? I have heard that there are great deposits in Canada which have not been developed for one reason or another, probably because they would cost too much.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is quite a considerable body of low grade ore now being developed and wofked in the Michipicoten area of western Ontario, and in the last few years there was an important discovery of high grade hematite ore 130 or 140 miles west of Port Arthur. While the exploratory work to delimit the extent of this ore body has not been completed, it has gone far enough to indicate that there is a substantial

tonnage of this quality ore. This ore is similar in quality to the ore obtained in the famous Mesaba range near Duluth. There are deposits of low grade ore in British Columbia and also some higher grade on Belcher island in Hudson bay, but until recently practically all our iron ore was secured from the United States or Newfoundland. The ore from Newfoundland is used at Sydney and other points in Nova Scotia.


John Horne Blackmore: Not very long ago
I read in a miner's paper that there was a great range of iron ore in Labrador.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The surface indications are that there may be deposits of iron ore in Labrador, but they are three hundred miles from any transportation system. At the moment these deposits certainly are not an economic possibility for development, whatever they may be in the future.


John Horne Blackmore: Are we in position to develop our own iron ore deposits to the point where we would have a chance of matching Hitler?


John Ritchie MacNicol: One of the mines the
minister refers to is the Steep Rock mine, a specimen of the ore from which I hold in my hand. It is equal to that produced on the Mesaba range on the United States side of the line. The other mine referred to is the new Helen mountain mine in Algoma where a low grade ore is produced. They are now taking out about 4,000 tons a day, from which after sintering and purification they are able to produce about 2,000 tons of pig iron a day. This reflects great credit upon those who have helped to expedite the production of iron ore in Algoma.


John Horne Blackmore: Will the minister say that there is plenty of iron ore in Canada, that it is just a matter of development?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should like very much to give my hon. friend the assurance he desires, but I can add nothing to what I stated a moment ago. Production of iron is a problem which depends not only upon the presence of iron ore but upon the means of converting the ore into iron. That is why these developments are usually found where coal and other minerals are in close proximity. There is probably a very large quantity of high grade ore 130 or 140 miles from Port Arthur, but there is no smelting coal within a thousand miles and consequently a problem is created in the development of this resource. To a lesser degree, the same thing can be said about the ore being taken out of the Algoma district,

Supply-Indian Affairs Branch
about which the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) gave us some useful information.
The mineral possibilities of Canada, not only with regard to iron but with regard to other metals, is perhaps little more than scratched, if I may use that term. There was a time about forty years ago when it was thought that the precambrian shield contained no minerals, but we now know that we may reasonably expect to find minerals in this belt all the way from Labrador, around the southern end of Hudson bay and up to Great Bear lake in the Arctic region. Here and there mines are now operating profitably, not only in connection with the precious metals, gold and silver, but also in connection with the commercial metals such as nickel, copper and zinc. He would be a bold man indeed who would attempt to place any limit upon the possibilities of mineral development in this country.


John Horne Blackmore: Do we lack in Canada any of the metals essential to the manufacture of aeroplanes, tanks and motor cars?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think we have them all, with the possible exception of chromium. We have zinc, copper, nickel, and we are now producing iron.


John Horne Blackmore: Is tin required in the construction of these armaments?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have a little tin, not very much. Tin, I understand, does not enter extensively into the manufacture of automobiles and guns. It is a useful commodity in certain places, but not necessarily there.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister mentioned chromium. We are producing chromium in northwestern Ontario, in the vicinity of a town the name of which has escaped my mind; I believe it is Collins. Is the mine not still in operation?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is quite true that we have, I believe at the Soo, a chromium reduction plant.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But the ore comes from northwestern Ontario?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that most of it now comes from outside Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: A few years ago the government granted facilities-


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Quite true.


John Ritchie MacNicol: -to construct a road into Collins, I believe it was, in northwestern Ontario. Perhaps the chromium mine has not developed as it was anticipated it would.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is quite true. As I recall, $8,000 or $10,000 was spent on getting a road into a deposit somewhere north of Port Arthur, I believe.	1


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes. Northwest.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: But the deposit did not prove to be a very large one. While considerable ore was taken to the Soo, the plant there, I am informed, depends now very largely, if not altogether, upon sources of supply outside Canada.


John Horne Blackmore: Just before we conclude, I believe the hon. member for Davenport held up, for the committee to see, a piece of iron ore. He sent me a little note which I think is good enough to put on Hansard. It is this:
Sample of hematite ore from Steep Rock mines, northwestern Ontario; 65 per cent of iron and millions of tons in sight.
I wish to make just a short comment which seems to me valuable. The minister will have heard many times the statement, uttered and reiterated by leaders of thought to-day, that the things which matter in our war effort are materials and men. Where a thing is physically possible it can be made financially possible, and when he points out that the iron ore deposits are a thousand miles away from coal, it is well that we realize in this committee at this present time that, if the coal is there, if the iron deposits can be made accessible to the railroads, then the coal can be transported to the iron deposits and the iron can be made. If the government of the day neglects to take cognizance of that fact, and as a result, through lack of iron, Britain should be in danger of losing the war, the government of the day will never be forgiven- not in centuries to come.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
159. Indian affairs branch. Branch administration, $54,800.
John Ritchie MacNicol: What I have to say will relate to the items from 159 to 168. I shall be brief; I want, as much as anybody else, to see the end of this part of the session.


Thomas Vien: Shall we take together items 159 to 168?


John Ritchie MacNicol: They all pertain to
Indians.


Thomas Vien: Is it the pleasure of
the committee that we shall take these items together?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.
150. Indian agencies, $654,893.
161.	Administration, $40,365.
Supply-Indian Affairs Branch

Medical.
162.	Indian hospitals and general care of Indians, $1,442,217.
163.	Grants to hospitals, $4,320.
Welfare and training.
16b. Welfare of Indians, $967,374.
165.	Indian education, $500,616.
166.	Grants to residential schools, $1,398,944.
167.	Grants to agricultural exhibitions and Indian fairs, as detailed in the estimates, $6,870.
168.	Grant to provide for additional services to Indians of British Columbia, $100,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: During the last few years it has been my pleasure to call at quite a number of Indian reservations. On every occasion 1 made the best inquiry I could into the administration of Indian affairs, to learn what could be done to improve the lot of the Indians from the educational, health and vocational points of view. More and more I am impressed with two phrases which we have had with us for a long time, namely, "lo, the poor Indian!" and, "the noble red man." I have had the pleasure of travelling with Indian guides on many occasions for many days at a time. I cannot now, in the moment or two I am going to take, say all I should like to say about Indian administration. ' I can say this, that I heard in numerous places that since Doctor McGill became the head of the branch there has been a considerable improvement in the administration; and for that I am glad.
As I travel round I can see that there is yet a great opportunity to do better for our Indian wards, to make their lot in life better than it is. I am afraid that many reserves are so remote that they are not investigated as often as they should be. It takes time to visit them. I engaged a small diesel-driven boat, with guides, an engineer, and a wheelsman, at considerable expense, to take me to visit certain reservations on a northwest Ontario lake. I do not think I need mention the reserves or the lakes, but I shall relate one or two examples of what I found.
First, as to the habitations. We vote large sums of money for Indian administration, and as a white man I am shocked and ashamed at what I have seen of the housing conditions of Indians on certain reserves. If we were not supposed to assist them and develop their ntanner of life, it would be a different matter, but that is the obligation of the white man. He has, to a very large extent, taken their lands away from them. He has given them reserves, and he undertakes to direct them and look after them. There is a great opportunity to improve their lot.
I should like to have a parliamentary committee set up, say at the next session. I make no reflection on the department, which probably is doing all that has been done before,
[The Chairman.]
and, as I said a few moments ago, is improving on it. But I think we should have a committee, with power to call witnesses, including Indian agents and the occasional chief, not with the intention of finding fault or criticizing, but with the sole desire of improving the lot of the Indians.
I have visited a number of reserves in the United States, and I find that both federal and state governments have done a great deal for the Indians. They have gone so far that they are now discussing giving them representation in the legislatures. For a long time the Maoris of New Zealand have had representation in the legislature of that dominion, and the south African government has now provided representation for its coloured people. Perhaps it would be a good thing if we had someone

how he would be elected or selected I do not know

to represent in this house our Indian people and be a spokesman on their behalf.
I recall one of dozens of habitations which I visited in northern Ontario. Upon measuring it, I found that it was twelve feet by fifteen feet. There were twelve Indian folks living in that house, and only two bunks. Therefore, undoubtedly some of them had to sleep on the floor. In many places one could see out through the roof. The smoke pipe where it went through the roof had no tin round it to prevent fires.
The Indians are our wards and we should take proper care of them. I am interested in the welfare of the noble red man-and he is a noble man, from what I have seen of him, even though some are not quite what we should like them to be. For that matter, however, I suppose they are no worse than many of our own people. Some years ago an estimate about a hospital on a reservation was going through the house, and we were told that the hospital on the reservation had cost $7,000. I went to see it and I found it was not a hospital at all. At the time I called, it was filled with hay and the walls were bursting from the pressure of the hay on every side. Indian money had likely been used to build that so-called hospital and it was not completed.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Where was that?


John Ritchie MacNicol: On lake Nipigon, Gull river reservation. I did mot intend to mention any reservation. I find that the cost of medical services, hospital and drugs, is excessive for the Indians, when one takes into consideration the number of Indians there are and the cost on the reservation I have in mind. I have here the facts with regard to a certain agency, and I find that medical expenses and expenses for hospital,

Supply-Indian Affairs Branch
doctor, dentist and so forth for 1,724 Indians amounted to $i7,240, or $10 each. On another occasion I asked the minister about gardens and the raising of poultry by the Indians for their own use. In one reservation I visited there were two tractors, and they were cultivating from ten to fifteen acres. One tractor was afterwards moved to operate a small sawmill and another was placed in an outshed. Cultivation becomes expensive under such conditions, especially when one considers that they raised 1,000 bushels of potatoes of which they used only 200 bushels, sold 200 bushels and allowed 600 bushels to rot.
I suggest that the situation with regard to launches should be investigated. If a launch cost $1,500 and it is found that it already has had approximately $7,000 of repairs put on it, there is something to be looked into. I am not blaming anyone. Perhaps it was left outside during the winter, the same as was done in connection with a sawmill, with its belts and wheels, and tractors, with no covering, except a board roof but without sides. That is expensive.
However, I will close my remarks, although I shoxdd like to have said a good deal more on behalf of the noble red man. His fish are being killed through pulpwood operations; the streams and lakes being poisoned so that one can find dead fish strewn on top of the water. There seems to be no one delegated to defend the Indian. The department in Ottawa is hundreds of miles away from the remote reservations and cannot possibly know what is going on. If we had a parliamentary committee with power to look into the whole question thoroughly, then I think many things that are not as they should be in our Indian administration would be remedied. They are not attributable to anyone and I hope no one in the department will take offence but there is room for improvement.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Substantial progress is
being made in administration.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I said so.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Indians are scattered over Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific, there being a total Indian population of
118,000	or 119,000. Their welfare and their health are the constant study of the officials of the department, and while in many instances the progress which has been made has not been such as we should like to have seen, I can assure the committee that considerable advance has been made. Take, for example the matter of health. In 1936, for the first time, we tackled the problem of tuberculosis among the Indians, and we have made considerable progress since then in eradicating this disease so far as the Indian 14873-254
is concerned. That is of importance not only for the welfare of the Indian but from the point of view of the white population as well.
Another thing I would mention is the effort that has been made in the last four or five years towards the restoration of fur in the northern parts of the provinces. One-third of the Indians live in the northern parts of the provinces or in the Northwest Territories, and their only means of livelihood is their fur catch. By wasteful methods it has become depleted, and it may be of interest to the committee to give some of the results of what has been attempted in restoration in this direction. In the northern part of Manitoba there are over 5,000 Indians and their livelihood had practically gone. In one particular area, sixty or seventy miles east of the Pas-


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have been there.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: -there used to be at one time a large production of muskrats, but it had declined to the point where in 1935 fewer than 2,000 muskrats were taken off that area. I approached the provincial government in 1936 and offered to pay half the expense of rehabilitating that area, and the province was interested from the point of view of the halfbreeds. We were interested from the point of view of the Indians. Works were carried on at a total cost, including supervision and everything else, of around $130,000 over a period of two years. The area was opened up for trapping in 1940, and in that year the amount of fur taken off the area was valued at about $162,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: To the Indians?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, to the half-breeds and the Indians. The share of the Indians was $35,000. About 100 families of Indians were provided for at $20 a month the year round. A few months ago the trapping season for this area was opened, and the total catch for this season was about 200,000 pelts. The revenue from it was $350,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: How much will go to the Indians?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There were 700 trappers of whom 180 were Indians. Of these, 155 will receive about $300 each, and twenty five head trappers will receive about $380 each. That is not paid out to the Indians when the fur is sold. It is placed in a trust account and each Indian trapper is paid so much a month. We have taken several hundred Indian families in that region off relief in the last two years. Some investigations are going on in Ontario, and there are other areas in Manitoba that are being

Supply-Indian Affairs Branch

developed. In Quebec we have had the full cooperation of not only the present Quebec government but the government that preceded it. We have had set aside two large areas for the restoration of beaver. At the southern end of James bay we have about
1,000	Indians.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is on the Ontario side?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: On the Quebec side.


John Ritchie MacNicol: There are about 1,000 on the Ontario side.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is east of James bay. We have secured there over ten thousand square miles, and we are developing a similar area north of the lake St. John country. Development work is being carried on in northern Saskatchewan, northern Alberta and the Northwest Territories. I can say with some confidence that if these policies are wisely and sanely followed, we shall take that population of Indians who have been dependent for their livelihood upon fur in the past practically off relief within ten years, probably within seven or eight years. That is a bit of work that I think is constructive and well worth while. Then we are endeavouring to develop the reserves that have agricultural possibilities so that the Indians will have live stock and meat and cereals for their support.
There is no problem to-day that offers a greater challenge to the Canadian people than the Indian problem. I think there are definite possibilities of solving them. My hon. friend suggested that the whole Indian problem might be a matter of review by a special committee. I shall be glad to take his suggestion under consideration. In fact we have at present under review the whole Indian Act, which stands almost in its entirety as it was passed sixty or seventy years ago. If we come to a consideration of the revision of the act, these other matters to which my hon. friend has referred might be examined into at the same time.
Mr. BLACIvMORE: I should like to commend the minister for the laudable work he has done. I have no use for carping criticism which overlooks the fine things that have been done.
I have noticed the hospitals that have been established for Indians. These hospitals are highly commendable and are increasing the numbers of the Indians and adding to their happiness.
But with the many commendable things I wish to point out two or three matters that also should be borne in mind. We should not

dream too much of great things to do by and by but should get under way what we are going to do. The Indians are suffering seriously from certain ills which are developing among us and which we are treating with a measure of indulgence. I refer to such as marketing difficulties. If the white man finds it difficult to understand why we cannot produce and sell wheat, let hon. members imagine how the Indian feels when, after having learned to produce wheat, he finds he cannot sell it or the price is so low that he cannot make a profit. I have in my constituency one of those reserves on which farming has been developed. I have known Indians who were successful stock raisers to be reduced to despair simply because they could not sell to advantage. The government must be particularly careful and give special attention to the Indians' problems while we are going through these trying times. I have talked with Indians from the reservation in my constituency who were bewildered by the unemployment problem. They have learned to harvest sugar beets, to pick up potatoes, and built themselves up so they could get along fairly well; they had teams and bundle racks to go into the grain fields and supplement their income, and then when troubles came in 1929 and following years, they could not get that work and income upon which they had been dependent. This condition applies all over Canada and is causing great trouble.
I would point out that, if I am correctly informed-and I have information from dependable sources-there is developing among the Indians in Canada a bitterness which is really dangerous, notwithstanding all the good things the minister is doing. I point this out so that the minister may be a little more indulgent than he has been.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I was out of the chamber for a few minutes and did not hear the first remarks of the minister. Did he say anything about the tuberculosis problem?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes; it is gradually
improving.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am glad to hear that, because my information was that the problem was not being adequately handled. The department did not have sufficient money to cope with it. Is there anything further the minister might say?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Nothing was done especially with regard to the tuberculosis problem

Supply-Immigration Branch
among Indians until 1936. At that time a survey was carried on in many of the Indian schools and revealed deplorable conditions. The vote was increased last year. It was $300,000, and this year it is a little more. I can assure my hon. friend that the matter is receiving attention and that progress is being made.
Items 159 to 168 inclusive agreed to. Immigration branch.
169.	Administration of the Immigration Act and the Chinese Immigration Act, $164,030.
170.	Field and inspeetional service, Canada, $1,127,515.
171.	Field and inspeetional service, abroad, $103,630.
172.	Relief of distressed Canadians, outside Canada, $10,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: As the sole representative of the Conservative party present, I might take a minute or two to speak of immigration, particularly in connection with one race. I am sure the heart of every hon. member has been touched by the terrible trials through which the Hebrew race has been going ever since the war broke out. The great mass of them that are still left in Europe will suffer as they have all through the ages. It is not for that mass that I speak at the moment because nothing I could say could help them.


Thomas Vien: The hon. gentleman is making general remarks. Does he wish to take items 169, 170, 171 and 172 together? Is that the pleasure of the committee?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I speak for a few cases that came under my observation lately which have touched me very deeply. I have in mind a man who before the war is said to have been worth millions of dollars, a resident of Poland, owner of many large plants, who lived in a fine palace. Like other Hebrew residents of Poland, since the war broke out he has been despoiled. He fled first to Lithuania; after being subjected to all kinds of pilfering by agents of one kind and another, he at last succeeded in getting to Russia and, after being again pilfered there, he got to Japan and, I believe, is now in Japan. A friend of his came to see me, and I told him there was little I could do. But it brought to my mind the dreadful horrors which a large portion of a race that has contributed so much to this world is now enduring. I have in mind a mother who fled from Poland to France, then to Spain, then to Brazil; she has one daughter and two sons in Toronto, but it has been impossible for the sons and daughter to 14873-254J
obtain permission for the mother to come to Toronto. I mention these cases merely in the hope that the department may view with the greatest compassion the plight of some . of these people who are asking to be permitted to come into this country. I can say for the Hebrew people of Toronto that they have contributed materially towards building up that city, from every point of view that may be considered.


Major James William Coldwell: I agree with the
remarks just made by the hon. member for Davenport. It is regrettable that people so far forget themselves as to vilify a whole race on account of the misdeeds of some of its members. After all, we have only to look among our own people to find many who are no credit to us.
I hope the immigration department will give heed to some of the representations that have been made on behalf of refugees. I know there is pressure from both sides, from those who wish to admit and those who wish to keep out, but as a Christian country I believe we ought to be practical in the application of our ideals and do what we can to assist those who have suffered in a cause for which we are at war. I noticed that in the British House of Commons the-other day Miss Rathbone asked a question of Mr. Herbert Morrison with regard to the-people who were picked up in a panic a year-ago last summer and sent to Canada, asking-if they were to be regarded as enemy aliens. Mr. Morrison replied by saying he was convinced that a large number of people had been picked up who ought not to have been, but that in the difficult situation in which they found themselves this was considered necessary in order to protect the country.
Many of those people came to Canada, and I know, as other hon. members do, that some-steps have been taken in connection with them. We of the defence of Canada regulations committee had the privilege of hearing Mr. Patterson, his majesty's commissioner of prisons, who was here investigating these cases. I believe that about eight of these people, some of them boys, have been admitted to Canada in order to continue their education, and a large number can obtain permission to enter the United States provided they do not enter directly from an internment camp in this country. I hope it may be possible for this government to enter into some arrangement with the British authorities so that at least those who can get visas for entry into the United States if they are permitted a short residence in this country outside the internment camps, may be given permission to establish such residence in order that they

Supply-Immigration Branch
may enter that country. As Mr. Morrison made clear to the British House of Commons, among these people are many who have suffered more than any others have suffered under the heel of fascism and nazism. They are much more the enemy of Hitler than even the bitterest of our own people could be, and there is no doubt as to their loyalty to the allied cause.
In closing, I would add that I know, of those who have been returned to England, some hundreds are to-day serving in the army or doing other essential war work as chemists, scientists, technical men and so forth. A few days ago there came to my desk a letter from a man who was allowed to enter this country, I think some two or three years ago, a German who had fled from Germany to Austria, thence to Czechoslovakia, thence to Switzerland, thence to Belgium, thence to England and finally to Canada. To-day that man is in his majesty's uniform and is urging all his compatriots who have likewise suffered, or who have made their ^ homes in Canada, to follow his example and defend the cause of democracy. Therefore I do not think our people should get the idea that all those who knock at our gates, or any large proportion of them, are enemies in disguise. No doubt there are some blacksheep among them, but I believe that in the main those who have represented themselves to be refugees are genuinely fleeing from the terrors nf nazism and fascism.


Charles Edward Johnston: I notice
that item 172 provides 110,000 for the relief of distressed Canadians outside Canada. In view of the fact that we have so many distressed Canadians in Canada who need relief and cannot get it, would the minister explain this item? What qualifications would these people require to have in order to obtain this assistance?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is a small vote
required in many cases to bring Canadians back to Canada from enemy countries. A country such as Roumania, for instance,' may be threatened with German invasion. Before the invasion actually occurs, a Canadian resident may go, say, to Greece, where he will be stranded. This fund is designed to meet cases of that kind, distress arising through no fault of the individual concerned.


Charles Edward Johnston: No one permanently residing outside Canada could get any of this assistance?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.
Items 169 to 172 inclusive agreed to.
Coal subsidies and subventions.
ns. Dominion fuel board administration and investigation, $27,415.

nil. Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council, $4,500,000.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Ross, Moose Jaw):: These two items both deal
with coal, and perhaps we might take them together.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Charles Edward Johnston: I have
purposely refrained from taking part in the discussions of the last few days in order that the house might make rapid progress with its business, and in order that when we came to this question of coal the Chairman would understand that I have not held up the business of the house at all within the last week or so. I believe the coal situation in Canada needs a thorough going over. We all realize that the coal industry is going to play a vital part in our war effort, and I think this matter should be given a great deal of consideration at this time even though we are in a hurry to get through.
I represent a constituency which has suffered perhaps more by reason of conditions prevailing in the coal industry than any other constituency in Canada. Even to-day in the city of Drumheller there are hundreds of miners unemployed. I should like to read part of a resolution which I have received from the miners' union of sub-districts 1 and 2, district 18 of the United Mine Workers of America. It states:
That this meeting protest strongly against continued importations of United States coal and that we demand that steps be taken immediately to provide additional markets for Canadian-mined coal, so as to conserve Canadian exchange during war time, and to eliminate the necessity of Canadian miners applying for relief. In the meantime, until these markets are made available, we demand the dominion government bear its fair share of necessary relief.
The government of the day should be ashamed to see qualified miners having to bring up at this time the question of relief. As I understand the minister, in the coming year there is going to be a great shortage of fuel. He is now going to appeal to these miners. He is going to appeal to their patriotism, and from various other angles, so that they will get busy and produce coal. That is exactly what those men have been wanting to do for the last three or four years. They at least had the foresight to see that the time was coming when their services would be required. Apparently, however, the government has not taken that attitude. It has not had the vision to see that that time was coming, and coming very fast.

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In a report tabled in the House of Commons on June 12, 1940, I find set out the value of output of Canadian coal mines from 1929 to 1939, and these figures show a steady decrease. In 1929 the value was a little over $63,000,000, but by 1939 it had gone down to about $48,000,000. There was a gradual decrease in those ten years, showing that the value of coal mined in Canada was decreasing, and the inference is that the miners were having less work all that time. In the very same report we find figures as to importations of coal entered for consumption in Canada in the same years. Between 1929 and 1939 the values of United States importations decreased from $50,000,000 to $27,000,000. But then, after 1939, there is a jump to almost $49,000,000. The amount was almost doubled. Yet at that time of increased importation we received a resolution from these miners, in one of the greatest mining districts of Canada, complaining that they are on relief. The Minister of Trade and Commerce is in the committee, he is from Alberta, and he knows that what I say is true. No doubt it is also true of mining districts in Nova Scotia.
Nevertheless we have double the importations of coal from the United States. I say that was not necessary. The minister may reply that we have to keep up our end of the agreement with the United States. But when we think of the tremendous amount of trade taking place between the United States and Canada, and the tremendous amounts we are buying from that country, we must conclude that in view of the trade the United States is getting from Canada, that would be a poor argument. To-day they are doing more business with us than they ever did before.
Here is an essential industry: coal mining. The government have gone so far as to put the industry under the National Resources Mobilization Act. They are going to make it an offence for miners to go on strike. Yet these miners are appealing to the government to give them work. All this time, when they have been begging the government to make a thorough survey of the coal situation, so as to make it possible for the miners to stay in those districts, the government have been overlooking the industry. The result is that more than double the amount of importations are coming from the United States. In the last four months of 1940 close to $10,000,000 worth of coal was imported from that country.
The same report shows that importations from other countries between 1929 and 1939 ranged from $5,500,000 to $8,000,000. It is clear, therefore, that importations from countries other than those of the north American continent have increased in those
ten years. I can see no good reason for that. Of course there were plenty of ships available in those years. Then, from 1939 to this date the importations have dropped off materially, no doubt due to the hazards of ocean transportation. Instead of using our own coal mines to produce that difference in supply, after the war broke out, we adopted other means. Did the government have foresight enough to see that the time was coming when it would have to demand that Canadian miners should do everything possible to produce more coal? No; they just sat back, idly.
When war broke out and the importations of coal from across the ocean dropped off, the only increases in importations or supplies have been from the United States. That, in itself, certainly does not look good to the coal miner. There are many people in Canada who are materially interested in the coming situation. I hold in my hand an excerpt from the National Home Monthly. It is headed "Patriotism and Coal," and in part reads as follows:
What are we thinking of, if we continue this wastage at such a time as the present? It was bad enough in relatively quiet years to send so much money out of Canada, for a benefit in great measure illusory; it meant that we had to provide a livelihood in idleness for large bodies of miners who, but for our habit of thus buying abroad, would have been sustaining themselves by their own labour. But it is many times worse now, when there is so much that we cannot produce at home to meet our war needs, so much for which we are bound to draw upon the United States manufacturer, and for which we must pay in such American dollars as are obtainable only at high discount in exchange for our own. We cannot too soon bethink ourselves of how to maintain a tolerable balance of trade, and each practicable reduction of imports makes the task easier. Coal is our most obvious product on which to become, as the Germans in their four-year plan say, "self-sufficient".
To learn from a resourceful enemy is a valuable practice, especially during war.
The article would show that the question is being widely discussed, and that others have seen the practicability of the suggestion 1 make. I believe the government would be well advised to look into the feasibility of producing by-products of coal. I have in mind particularly fuel oil, which can be successfully and commercially produced from coal. That is not illusory by any means, because in Germany it has been done for years, and they are doing it now.
These are matters of particular importance, especially when we read in the press articles such as that which appeared in the Ottawa Journal of June 13, 1941, under the heading: "U.S. to build world's biggest oil pipeline.'' We find this expression in the text of the
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Clarence Gillis: Mr. Chairman, I realize that everyone is anxiously awaiting the end of this part of the session, and that there is a definite arrangement to close up at three o'clock. I am going to be as brief and as explicit as possible. I agree with the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Johnston) that it is absolutely necessary at this time to bring to the attention of the government the necessity of doing something with respect to the coal indu-try. At the present time there is chaos in this industry from coast to coast. While I believe the idea of subventions was good, they are absolutely inadequate to take care of the situation. That is not merely my opinion; it is borne out by facts. We see the same condition from coast to coast; it is developing into a serious situation. This press dispatch appeared in the Ottawa Journal of June 8:
Domestic and industrial consumers Wednesday were advised by the wartime prices and trade board to. order next winter's fuel supplies now.
According to sessional paper 175B, tabled in answer to a question by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, the government spent by way of subventions in 1940, $4,315,589.83 to move 3,008,290 tons of coal. If the government supposes that that policy as carried out for the past several years is going to solve Canada's coal problem, all it has to do is to make an examination of the industry from coast to coast and it will find that we are drifting into a mess from which, if continued for any length of time, we may not be able to extricate ourselves.
Referring to the comparative figures with respect to the importations of United States coal, I find that whereas in the first nine months of 1939 we imported 7,658,255 tons, for the corresponding period of 1940 we imported 12,569,565 tons. While the government spent nearly four and a half million dollars last year on subventions, imports from the United States have practically doubled. And what has happened meanwhile in our own industry? On the west coast we find, according to a newspaper item of May 15, that more than
400 Cumberland, British Columbia, miners, members of No. 7293 local of the United Mine Workers, and their wives met last Saturday morning to discuss the serious economic situation which has developed. In that area they are working three days a week, seeking relief, holding mass demonstrations, trying to impress on their provincial government the necessity of relief. We heard the hon. member for Bow River describe the position of the industry in Alberta, where mines are actually closed.
Turning to Nova Scotia, the same situation prevails. Mines are closing at the present time.
I drew the attention of the house three months ago to the closing of a mine in Cumberland county at River Hibbert, throwing 115 men out of employment. I took occasion to mention the contribution which these people were making to war industry. The minister of mines and resources for our province was quite indignant that I mentioned the matter here, asserting that the provincial government had a cure for the situation. That was three months ago. The day before yesterday I received a letter from that section reporting that those 115 men are still totally unemployed, and they asked me to bring the matter up here to see whether something could not be done. In Inverness county, at the other end of the province, we find that orders for coal for use on the Canadian National railway have diminished to a point where one hundred men are threatened with unemployment. As I have said, there is chaos in the industry from coast to coast.
I do not understand why concurrently the imports of coal from the United States have doubled. It does not make sense. From coast to coast in Canada we are closing mines; miners are demanding relief. Yet the fuel board, the government agency set up for the purpose of finding a solution of the problems of the coal industry, is advising the Canadian people that there may be a coal shortage. The facts speak for themselves. No effort is made by the government to deal with this difficulty in a practical way with the help of people who understand the situation and are desirous of curing the trouble.
I urge the minister to do what the hon. member for Bow River has advocated. A national fuel policy must be laid down for Canada. If the minister needs practical advice, those he should call in are the people who have made representations to his department and to the government during the last ten years on the matter of a national fuel policy. Thereby there could be worked out a solution of this problem
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The payment of subventions to railroads and mining operators as set out under the order in council is not a cure; it is not even a palliative.
The representatives of the mine workers in districts 18 and 26, who have studied the matter, recommended in the past that a national fuel policy in this country must be one whereby economic markets for both east and west should be zoned, and if they were zoned, a sufficient amount of coal which is being imported would have to be kept out of the country to guarantee our own industry a market.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: How would you keep it out of the country?


Clarence Gillis: Put an embargo on a sufficient amount of it to guarantee the marketing of our own coal. I do not think that a tariff would be a solution; tariffs can be juggled. They have not been a solution in the past. I say, impose an embargo, be definite about the matter, and so try to cure what is developing into a very bad situation.
I have here much statistical material to which I could make reference, but I am not going to do so at this time. I believe the minister is fully aware of it, because if it is sent to me no doubt it is sent to his department. I would call his attention, though to the issue of the Mine Worker, the official magazine of district 18, for May, 1941, in which they go very thoroughly into this question of a national fuel policy, and lay out a programme which, if followed, will provide a solution. Not only that, but they show definitely there, in the matter of marketing western coal alone, that this government could save approximately seven million dollars a year to the dominion, taking into account the exchange involved in the importation of coal from the United States.
Again may I call to the minister's attention, as I did on the last occasion when his estimates were before the house, the discrimination against Canadian coal used for metallurgical purposes, in the manufacture of steel. Coal brought in from the United States for this purpose is given a drawback of 99 per cent; on 75 cents a ton they are handed back 74 cents. The same allowance applies to coke. Yet Canadian coal used in the manufacture of steel is bonused only to the extent of 49 cents a ton. I see no reason why the rate of bonus granted to United States coal should not be made applicable to coal mined in Canada. It would be an incentive to operators to expand the industry, something they are not doing at the present time.
The consequences are reflected, too, in the ages paid the miners. If the same bonus received by the United States operators were 'Mr. Gillis.]
applicable to Canadian coal production, there would not be the difference in wages, because the basis of the argument for lower wages in Canada would have disappeared. The minister would be well advised to call the representatives of the miners and come to an understanding. With all respect to their ability, I have not much confidence in the men who have been handling the situation, because the results that have been achieved in the last ten years on the basis of the policy of subventions have certainly not brought very much benefit to the industry in Canada.


Mr. SOPER:: As far back as May, 1940, we were told that we could not get Nova Scotia coal further west than Montreal. Consequently all through the eastern part of Ontario and in the west there has been very little Nova Scotia coal in use in the last two years.


John Ritchie MacNicol: We use several thousand tons a year in Toronto. The Toronto board of education uses nothing but Nova Scotia coal.


Bert H. Soper: That was the notice the coal dealers got. With regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Johnston), the miners are not working at this time of the year because you cannot ship coal here and put it in the cellars now or there will be too much deterioration. The Alberta people, I would point out, were the only ones who raised the price of coal in the season of 1940-41. This upset the market just when it was getting in good shape. There will be a good deal of Alberta coal used this year.


Charles Edward Johnston: Wages were increased and that was the reason for the increase in the price.


Bert H. Soper: It was bad business to raise the price in the middle of the season when they were beginning to get a market. There will be a good sale for Alberta coal in Ontario this year, but the business is one that must be handled properly or the dealers will lose a good deal of money.


Major James William Coldwell: I intended to say some- * thing about coal from a different angle, but at this stage I will refrain. I will let it go until next session. Good grades of Alberta coal like Saunders Creek, Big Horn and Alexo stand up well because they are semi-hard coal. The British thermal heat unit in that type of coal approaches closely to the thermal unit per pound in anthracite. Speaking from memory, I believe it is 11,800 per pound in the coals I have mentioned as against 13,000 in anthracite. That can be sold under the present subventions in Ontario at around $12.50

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a ton, but American coal, with exchange and so on, will have to be sold this year around S15.75 or $16.00. Consequently it would be a good plan for the minister to engage in a little advertising campaign on behalf of western coal. We have good coal in the west and unfortunately some very poor coal too, and I regret to say that some of the latter has been shipped here. It ought never to be shipped. There is need of supervision, and only grades of coal that are really worth while should be shipped. I have no doubt that if this policy were pursued we would continue to expand the Ontario market for western coal. When the minister, in reply to a question of mine the other day, said that nothing was being spent on advertising this great natural resource of Canada, I thought there was neglect on the part of the department.


Clarence Gillis: The hon. member for Lanark said it has not been possible to get Nova Scotia coal west of Montreal since May 1940. Under the subvention regulations, I understand, no subvention is paid on Nova Scotia coal unless it moves beyond a certain point in Ontario. The return furnished the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar in May 1941 shows that on Nova Scotia coal the bonus was paid on a net tonnage of $1,940,570. The subventions paid amounted to $2,643,366.54. That would lead me to believe that the quantity of coal here indicated moved west of Montreal in the year 1940; otherwise a subvention was paid that should not have been paid. I would ask the minister whether it is true that no Nova Scotia coal has been marketed west of Montreal since May 1940.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is not correct. Nova Scotia coal has been marketed west of Montreal since that date. Naturally the quantity has declined from what it was in previous years owing to the greatly stimulated demand east of Montreal. My hon. friend (Mr. Gillis) is incorrect in the figures he has given with regard to the increase in imports of American coal in 1940 as against 1939. In 1939 the total imports from the United States were 9,800,000 tons and in 1940, 13,400,000 tons, or an increase of 3,600,000 tons. But that did not mean any decrease in the production in either Nova Scotia or Alberta. It did not mean a decrease in production in any of the existing Canadian fields. As a matter of fact, production was increased in both Alberta and Nova Scotia, and this was due to the very considerable stimulation in business-railway traffic, industrial development and expansion, and so on, which require coal.


Clarence Gillis: I am not vouching for the figures I gave. I took them from a booklet called Coal and the War, dated January 29, 1941, published by the war-time economic coal committee, Western Canada Fuel Association.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend is quoting
figures on a nine months basis. The figures I have given are on a twelve months basis.


Mr. FAIR:: There are one or two things
that should be reiterated. An hon. member has just told us something of the poor grade of coal being shipped here. For his information I might say that someone interested sold some poor grade Alberta coal here in former years and that had a very specific purpose. It had a damaging effect on the sale of Alberta coal. I understand Alberta now has under consideration a policy which will permit only suitable grades of coal being shipped to a particular market.
The point brought out by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar should also be mentioned again, because we have in Alberta some of the very best coal obtainable in the world.
I would also support the suggestion that a national coal policy be instituted. If that is done it would be in the interests of eastern as well as western Canada and prevent much of the abuse that is going on and has gone on in the coal business.


Charles Edward Johnston: Why was the subvention on Alberta coal going to Manitoba withdrawn?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As has been stated in discussions in the house in previous years, the subvention is based on the principle of equalizing the cost of Canadian coal with the laid down cost of United States coal. The cost of United States coal had gone up, consequently the subvention was not required to meet that competition in Manitoba. The principle on which the subvention has been based ever since it was inaugurated is applied in precisely the same way this year as in other years. It has not meant any decrease in the production of Alberta coal, because the amount of coal produced in Alberta in 1940 was considerably more than in 1939.


Charles Edward Johnston: Do I
understand that Alberta coal can be laid down and sold in Manitoba for the same price as United States coal?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the
amount of United States coal consumed in Manitoba has not increased as a result of this, in fact it has decreased. But Alberta coal is finding competition from Saskatchewan coal in certain markets in Winnipeg. To

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what extent that has operated to affect Alberta coal shipments I cannot say at the moment.


Charles Edward Johnston: Will the
minister give some assurance that he will take into consideration the advisability of establishing a national coal policy?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Right here, may I ask my hon. friend what he means by a national coal policy? I asked the hon. member for Cape Breton South what his idea was, and it was to place an embargo on, that is absolutely prohibit, the entry of a certain amount of outside coal into Canada. Is that the attitude of the hon. member for Bow River?


Charles Edward Johnston: If it is
the desire of the committee to go into the details of a national coal policy I shall be glad to do so.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Thomas Vien: The hon. gentleman
put a question to the minister, and the minister asks him to clarify his question.


Charles Edward Johnston: I am just asking if it is the wish that we go into details of a national coal policy.


Thomas Vien: If the hon. gentleman
desires an answer to his question he must make his question clear, not by a speech on national policy but by stating what he has in mind in putting the question.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is
the reason I asked for a committee to be set up when we come back to consider thoroughly this question of a national coal policy. That should be very satisfactory to the minister because he apparently does not know what that means. In the meantime would the minister give consideration to the desir-ablit.y of advertising more extensively the further use of Canadian coal in areas in which it is now being used?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The latter question is now receiving the consideration of the officials of the department and is a matter I propose to take up with them as soon as we finish here. In regard to the other question, I shall be glad to take his representations into consideration.


Clarence Gillis: The minister stated that my idea of a national fuel policy was an embargo on United States coal. It was not as flatfooted as that. What I recommended to the minister was that he should call in someone who has sufficient knowledge of the industry and the marketing of coal to frame a national fuel policy. I said the markets of Canada should be zoned so that the coal industry-


An hon. MEMBER:: Cut it short.


Clarence Gillis: If we wanted to go into
that question I could keep the committee here until five o'clock, but I am not going to have the minister make statements which the press, which is very ready to write them up, can use to hold me up to ridicule. We are trying to make a contribution to the discussion, which is something the hon. member is not doing. What the hon. member for Bow River and myself are trying to do is to assist the minister to avoid the difficulty that he is running into, whether he knows it or not, a difficulty which may call for a great deal of assistance in the coal industry if he is to be extricated from it. The policy that is being carried out at the present time is certainly not going to do it. I could sit down and write a national fuel policy for the minister and go into details if he wants me to do it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should be very happy if my hon. friend would give me the benefit of his experience and judgment on that point.


Clarence Gillis: I shall certainly do it, but I do not want the impression created that I imagine that all the government has to do is to declare an embargo on United States coal and the problem would be solved.


Charles Edward Johnston: That
emphasizes my statement of a few minutes ago that, when the house reconvenes the minister should set up a committee to go into the whole question of a national fuel policy.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
177. Lands, parks and forests branch-National parks bureau. National parks, $299,500.
Robert Fair: What is being done in connection with the Wainwright buffalo park?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Wainwright national park has been placed at the disposal of the Department of National Defence.


Robert Fair: Is any use being made of it, or is it just idle?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand that up to the present they have not used it. I have not made inquiry as to when they are going to use it or what use they propose to make of it, but it is at their disposal for training purposes.


Mr. McNIVEN:: At the top of page 23 of the estimates, Mines and Geology Branch, it says: "Appropriation not required for 1941-42." My only reason for referring to this matter is that in the May issue of the Pre-

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Cambrian I find a eulogistic reference to the mines and geology branch of this department, by no less a distinguished person than Doctor S. G. Blaylock, of Trail. This reference was part of a symposium dealing with the work of this branch, and it concludes with these words:
He recommended that the geological survey be reestablished as one of our most important departments, that every effort be made to secure for it the ablest directorship we can find, that it be protected from political influence, and that it be given the greatest latitude in carrying on its work.
He goes on to say that his own company, Consolidated Mining and Smelting company had benefited from the work of this department in developing the Marysville magnesite deposits, the Pinchi lake mercury deposits and the Yellowknife gold area. This statement, coming from such a distinguished authority, should be sufficient to warrant the minister giving favourable consideration to furthering the work of this important branch of his department.
I should like also to refer the minister to an article appearing at page 2 of the same magazine entitled The Steep Rock Hematite Deposits, by Charles Clay. I hope I am not incurring the displeasure of the Minister of Finance in making these observations, because I had him in mind in considering this matter. The substance of this article is that 135 miles north and west of Fort William there is the largest deposit of good hematite ore to be found anywhere on the north American continent.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That was discussed about an hour ago.


Donald Alexander McNiven: I have been waiting around for two days in order to bring this matter to the attention of the minister.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This was all taken up some time ago.


Donald Alexander McNiven: Then I want to concur in what was said, if the immediate development of this deposit of hematite ore was urged. It will increase our steel production and protect our foreign exchange; and I am informed that it can be developed in such a way that western Canadian coal can be utilized. If this large deposit, so close to us in western Canada, can be developed, there is no doubt it will be of assistance to the agricultural industry of the country. I would commend the article to the minister and urge that he convey the substance thereof to his colleagues, and in particular to the Minister of Munitions and Supply.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
421. Loans and Investments. Soldier Settlement of Canada. To provide for soldier land settlement and British family settlement net advances, $105,000.
Grote Stirling: With the indulgence of the committee I should like to ask the minister one question before he concludes his estimates. The question is based on a telegram which has just been placed in my hands and which asserts that war bonds are being sold to the Doukhobors bearing a special sticker indicating that the money will not be used for war purposes. I want to know if this is true. It seems to me it would be of advantage for the government to deny it, or, if it cannot deny it, to explain it.


Mr. ILSLEY:: Some time ago we had an issue of non-interest bearing bonds which were quite widely purchased. Then members of certain religious denominations in Canada, which do not believe it right to kill people under any conditions, applied for bonds with the provision that the proceeds should be used for the relief of suffering and for humanitarian purposes in connection with the war. We provided, therefore, for the issue of non-interest bearing bonds, series B, and either in the bonds or in the prospectus it was stated that the proceeds would be devoted only to humanitarian purposes and the relief of suffering arising from the war. Then when the victory loan was announced representatives of these religious denominations which, as I say, believe it wrong to kill people under any conditions or circumstances, nevertheless wanted to support the war effort provided the money was not actually used for the purposes I have mentioned; and they wanted to know if there was any way they could buy victory bonds with the assurance that the money would be devoted to humanitarian purposes or for the relief of suffering arising from the war. We agreed to do that; we agreed that if persons having these religious views applied for bonds we would sell them victory bonds carrying a sticker such as the hon. gentleman has described. I do not know whether the description he has given is accurate, but as I could follow it I believe it is substantially correct.


Grote Stirling: I appreciate the indulgence of the minister in explaining this matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
338. To .provide for the cost of administration of soldier settlement and British family settlement, $578,465.
Robert Fair: This item deals with the administration of the soldier settlement board, and so on. I wonder if the minister would

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give us a statement of the position of the soldier settlers, indicating the number who are at present in debt, the amount to which they are in debt, the amount paid in interest and principal during the past year, and so forth.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I will endeavour to give that information, but I think the hon. gentleman will find practically all of it in the annual report of the department.


Robert Fair: I do not think that is a very satisfactory answer at this time. I know the house is in a hurry to get through, but I also know that these soldier settlers are suffering and have suffered during the past twenty years. I believe they should be given some consideration at this time, instead of just telling me to go back and look at the report of the department. I have received figures from the department which indicated that not enough money was being paid in to even cover the interest, without providing anything for the cost of administration. I believe something should be done. I think those in charge of this department could be given other work which would be far more useful at this time, and these soldier settlers who have suffered for the last twenty years should be given a break and an opportunity to earn a decent living. I have in mind a neighbour of mine who bought a half-section of land, with equipment, for $8,000. The last report I had, which was a couple of years ago, showed that he was in debt to the extent of more than $13,000, and now he is in uniform. Something should be done; the matter should not be put off in this way while these people are still suffering.


Mr. JAQUES:: I should like to add a
few words to what has been said by the hon. member for Battle River. In my own riding I have a soldier who has received notice to vacate his farm next fall. I do not wish to blame those who are administering the department, the inspectors and the others. They have to administer the act as it is. But conditions are so different to-day from what they were when the scheme was started, that in my opinion it is time the act was revised. I have seen figures of this man's account, and on the surface it does not look good. On one side are the figures showing what the man has paid in, while on the other is shown the amount he still owes. But as I pointed out to the director acting for the soldier settlement board, they do not show on the asset side the fact that twenty years ago that soldier, with thousands of others, offered his life in the service of his country. Large numbers of these men, if they were 
not totally disabled, were certainly handicapped from their experiences in the war.
Neither does it show on the asset side the value of the improvements made in twenty years' work on that land. Further than that, this man has six children, and they are not shown on the asset side. Hon. members may smile when I mention the children, but surely healthy children are the greatest asset that this or any other country can have. If this .man is turned off his farm next fall, where is he to go, and what are those children to do for the next few years? I suppose they will drift into the towns, and go on relief.
Which is the better policy for this government to follow-to allow this man to stay on the farm, or to drive him off? Up to the present he has not been on relief. He is raising his family to be healthy and patriotic Canadian citizens. Or should the family foe turned off the farm and the children raised in an atmosphere of relief? Furthermore, when this farm was bought-probably about 1919-values were at their peak, both for land and agricultural products. When we consider that in 1917 a debt of $100 could be settled by raising 35 bushels of wheat, and that in 1932 and 1933 it required fifteen times that amount of wheat to setle the same debt, we get some idea of the conditions these men have been up against.
I believe my sense of honesty is as well developed as that of any man, but if one can see . anything honest in a system under which our debts are contracted at a certain level of prices and then, through a deliberate policy of deflation put into effect by various governments-because these things do not happen by accident-instead of repaying the $100, which was the amount contracted, the debtor finds himself saddled with an obligation of probably $500 or $1,000, all I can say is, heaven save us from anything dishonest!
I draw this case to the attention of the minister at this time, when the government is trying to draft recruits. Here is a man who served in the last war. I have no doubt his war experiences have been a handicap during the past twenty years. In addition to that, I have been over his farm, and I can say that if one were in the Gatineau district adjoining Ottawa, he might imagine himself on that farm. Part of his farm is on a mountain, and none of it is flat land.
This man has been struggling against physical and financial difficulties for twenty years. In the middle of this war he is faced with being turned out of his home, with his wife and children. He tells me he does not know

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where to go or what to do. I hope the minister will be able to do something for him.
I have no doubt there are other similar cases. Surely this is the worst kind of policy which could be followed either at this or any other time.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Some time ago when the orders of the day were called I raised a question of policy in connection with the administration of this department, and I was advised that the discussion should stand until the estimates were before us. I referred in particular to a soldier settler who for the second time in his life has joined the army. Shortly after joining he was notified that unless he made payment within thirty days he would lose all equity in his farm. I took the matter up with the minister, and I appreciate the consideration given by him. I understand that man's case is to stand over until the conclusion of the war. The point I make is that a notice of that sort, going out to a man in uniform who is associating with other soldiers, has a disturbing influence. I know the board was able to show that the man had been on the place for twenty years and had not made any large payments. But if it took the board twenty years to find that this man was not an efficient farmer-and I am still not prepared to agree he was not efficient-surely such drastic action should not be taken. I believe very few hon. members would have gone to that place twenty years ago and worked as hard as this man did. I think it would be agreed that he settled on submarginal land. He was a good citizen; so far as I know he did not spend his money on drink or gambling or in other objectionable ways.
My submission is that if the board saw fit to leave him on the land for twenty years, at least it should leave title to the land with him until the war is over. I would ask the minister to make a statement of policy as it affects men who join the army. It is most unfair to put the squeeze on them and close out their equities, thereby making the land available to someone who may have a few hundred dollars in cash. The minister should announce a policy which would indicate that these men could go back to their land. I understand protection is given under some provincial legislation, but that is not applicable to land held under the soldier settlement scheme. I would ask the minister to make a statement regarding the man in uniform whose dealings with the board might result in his being deprived of his equity while away on service.


Charles Edward Johnston: Before the minister replies, I would draw his attention to certain cases I have had described to me in the last few days. There were in fact five of them. I have written to the soldier settlement board concerning these, and with respect to four I have so far received no information. The fifth case the board has turned down flat. The circumstances in that case were somewhat similar to those which have been described by the hon. member for Mackenzie. The man I have in mind has been on the land for the last fifteen or twenty years. I ami speaking from memory, but I believe in that time he has had ten crop failures. In 1940 he had a fairly good crop, and he promised the board that he would contribute a certain amount of it as a payment on his land, but since he did not make that 1940 payment, the-board is kicking him off his land. From what the director of the soldier settlement board says, they will not do anything else. I do not know what I can do with this fellow. He has two sons in the active service, and it does not seem like a square deal. As I said before, since the last war he has had ten complete crop failures and some partial failures. If this is the reward a man is to get for active service, it is no wonder that we are not getting recruits.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The administration of
soldier settlement matters has had careful consideration, not only by myself but by officials of the department. Undoubtedly there are problems associated with it. I would remind my hon. friends who are now criticizing us, that in the past a great deal of consideration has been given to the soldier settler. On at least two occasions parliament has granted reductions, and further reductions have been made under the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act. Quite a considerable number of these settlers have paid their way, and there are others who will pay their way; yet in the very districts in which some have succeeded, there are others who have failed. Those are the ones for whom my hon. friends are making their appeals.


Charles Edward Johnston: Local conditions affect different farmers in different ways.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Local conditions are taken into account by the department. The hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) mentioned a case, one in connection with which he has had some correspondence with me. This man is in uniform and his farm, upon which there is no stock or equipment, is being left in the care of his brother. We shall get nothing from it, and we shall probably have to pay

Supply-Mines-Soldier Settlement
the taxes in order to keep it from being sold for taxes by the municipality. Yesterday the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefen-baker) offered some criticism of the soldier settlement administration in the matter of payment of allowances to dependents of enlisted soldier settlers. In this connection I have in mind a man who enlisted and who left a wife and two children on his farm. He had not been a successful farmer, and it was not the fault of the land. I think my hon. friends, if they are honest, will admit that there are some farmers who do not succeed largely because they lack some quality which is necessary to success.


Norman Jaques: The best farmers do not always succeed.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This man assigned $20 of his pay to his family; his wife receives $35 allowance and $12 for each child, making a total of $79 a month. Criticism was made, and probably would be made by my hon. friend, because under these circumstances we are asking that the taxes be paid so that the government will not have to put up additional money for that purpose. Is that a hardship on the family? I suppose my hon. friend will say that it is.
I should like to make one more observation (before I sit down. The recent increases in taxation-and I do not say that we have leached the limit-have been such that next year hundreds of thousands of people who have paid no taxes to the federal government will be paying taxes direct to the federal government. It is about time that the people of this country became tax conscious. There is no group in this house who have more suggestions for the spending of public money than my hon. friends who sit diagonally opposite. On almost every occasion we hear suggestions that we should put up for the relief of the soldier settler, should bonus this and should do something more about that. Where will we get the money to do all the things? It must come out of the pockets of the taxpayers. The government does not get it off rose-bushes, notwithstanding all the theories of my hon. friends from Alberta. The money must come from the pockets of the taxpayers or by means of loans. If the hon. member for Mackenzie and the hon. member for Bow River want to stand well with the electors in the next election they must soon give some attention to relieving the burdens of the taxpayer. In the years to come, the taxpayer will have something to say about it, and he is going to say it' pretty loudly, if I do mot miss my guess.
(Mr. Crerar.]


Mr. COLD WELL:: 
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Does my hon. friend blame that condition on the soldier settlement administration?


Major James William Coldwell: No; I am not placing this on the doorstep of the minister. What I am urging is that every consideration should be given at this time to the soldier settlers, and particularly to those who have gone back to the army. These men have not the provincial debt protection which other people have, and I do not think our government departments should exert the pressure which, it seems, is being exerted upon some of these people.
The minister will say, of course, that some of these men have not farmed properly, that

Supply-Mines-Soldier Settlement
they do not know how to farm. I believe that is true. But when we did not know what to do with these returned men back in 1920 and 1921, we persuaded many of them to go on the land,-men who ought never to have gone on the land. And there they are.
I have forgotten what the percentage of completed contracts is, but if my recollection is correct-and I have a fairly good memory- not more than 25 or 30 per cent of the contracts originally made have been carried to completion. Would the minister tell us how many of the original soldier settler contracts have been completed and the loans paid out in the terms of the contracts?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think I can get that
information for my hon. friend in a moment. It may be of interest to the committee to know that the total reductions or concessions made in amounts originally advanced to soldier settlers for the purpose of land, live stock and equipment, amount to over $43,000,000.


James J. Donnelly: That is, the write-off?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


James J. Donnelly: What was the original investment?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am told that it was around $108,000,000.


Major James William Coldwell: That would include both accrued interest and original principal?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, but largely principal reduction.


Major James William Coldwell: But that proves nothing.


James J. Donnelly: What rate of interest does the department charge?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Five per cent.


James J. Donnelly: Was it always 5 per cent, or has it been reduced?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand that it was always 5 per cent to the soldier settler. On some of the civilian contracts which replaced soldier settler contracts it may have been 6 per cent.


James J. Donnelly: How many soldiers have taken up land, how many have left the farms, and how many are yet on the farms?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that 2,592 of the original settlers have cleared off the indebtedness and have titles to their lands.


Major James William Coldwell: What percentage is that of the original contracts?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That would be around 11 or 12 per cent. Of the remainder of 8,118 soldier settlers whose contracts with the
department are still in force, 3,004, or 38 per cent, have a substantial equity of 40 per cent or more in their farms.


Major James William Coldwell: After twenty years?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They have their accounts in good standing, and should pay off their loans. There are 1,645 or 20 per cent, who have an equity of from 10 to 40 per cent in their farms and have a fair prospect of success.


Major James William Coldwell: That is after twenty years?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. Probably in some cases it would be twenty years; in others, it would be less.


Charles Edward Johnston: They have quite a bright future!


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Then 3,469 or 42 per cent, have little or no margin of equity. Most of this last group have had their loans reduced under the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act during the past three years: 2,300 of this group have a fighting chance, but 1,100, despite a heavy debt reduction under the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, have little prospect of establishing any personal equity in their farms, probably due to inefficient farming methods, aggravated in many cases by advancing age or other physical disability. That is the picture as it is at the present time.
I happen to know, because I have lived in western Canada, quite a number of cases of soldier settlers. I recall one case where there was only a public road between two men. They got the same advantages; their land cost practically the same; in each case they received practically the same assistance. One man has paid off his obligations in full, owns his farm and has good buildings on it; the other man has made a failure of his farm. How are you going to adopt any form of administration which will meet the case of that man? All you can do in the end-and that is what the policy of the department has been-is to nurse him along, recognizing the service he has given in the past. Probably he will stay there as long as he lives, because it provides him with a home, but we may abandon any idea that he will ever pay for his farm, because I cannot conceive of any conditions under which that individual would make a success. The fault was not in the policy of the government. The fault was not in the quality of the land he had. Nor can it be attributed to the conditions, because the man across the road made a success when the

Supply-Mines-Soldier Settlement
other man failed. The failure was due to, shall I say, some lack of ability, of capacity to manage, however you like to describe it.


Thomas Miller Bell: Perhaps, lack of suitability for the work he was doing.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, probably. The
probabilities are that he never should have attempted farming.


Norman Jaques: I brought to the notice
of the minister the case of a returned man who is to be turned off his farm this fall. The minister replied that we in this corner were, or would be, very free with the taxpayers' money. But may I remind the minister that, so long as that man is on the farm, he is not there at the public expense, so far as I know; but if he is turned off his farm and is forced on relief, in all probability he will be living at the expense of the taxpayer.
Let me say this, for it is something I do not talk about as a rule, that I know western Canada. I have been there since the year 1901, and I have lived always on the land; I have never engaged in any other business. When people argue that, because a man over here makes a success or what is called a success, and a man over there does not, the difference represents the real values of these two men, I say they do not know what they are talking about.
Let me point to the case of the most successful farmer Alberta ever had, the late George Lane. He came on a saddle-horse to the province before the province was formed. He lived to accumulate over a million dollars; yet when he died, George Lane was absolutely broke in mind, body and pocket. I can instance any number of men who have had similar experiences. It is easy enough for a firm or an accountant to press the keys on a machine and then turn a handle, and produce a result. But that does not represent the conditions on a farm.
Remarks about taxpayers' money come ill from those who were responsible for one million Canadians being on relief-people who would still be on relief had it not been for this war. Will anyone say that these one million people were inefficient or too lazy to work? They are not too lazy to fight, as we have found out. I wish the minister would look into this case and see that this man, after serving the country in the last war and having raised a family, living not at the expense of the taxpayers, is not turned on the road now or at any time. If he lived through the depression and the weather we 
have had in Alberta in the last twenty years, he deserves at least to be let alone to live as best he can.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
339. To provide for the payment to the government of the United Kingdom on account of losses under the 3,000 British family agreement of August 20, 1924, and the New Brunswick 500 British family agreements of August 4, 1927, and August 27, 1935, $20,000.
Major James William Coldwell: Can the minister give the comparable figures with regard to the British family settlement scheme-the number of original contracts, the number completed, the number of people who still remain with those who have barely more than a fighting chance to come through?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not that information. Under the 3,000-family scheme the original number was slightly below that figure, but I am bound to say that the scheme has not worked out successfully. There have been heavy losses, and more losses will accrue to the federal treasury before the full scheme is finally liquidated.


Major James William Coldwell: It is the old story. We did not choose sufficiently well the people who were adapted to that kind of work, and in some instances the land was not good. I went to the quarantine section in southern Saskatchewan and saw the people trying to make a living on land that had been passed up for nearly fifty years. They were grubbing on Canadian Pacific land-and how the Canadian Pacific fleeced them!


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
516. General administration-further amount required, $15,836.75.
Major James William Coldwell: Reasonable consideration should be given to these estimates. They are being called so rapidly that I have not been able to turn the pages to see what we were approving. I have no objection to passing over items that are not contentious. I wanted to see what item 45 was, but I found that we were six jumps ahead of it.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: Those
were all rather routine items-for instance, to pay the indemnity of members of parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in.

Questions

James Lorimer Ilsley: That the reports of the committee of supply made to the house on February 25, 27, May 2, 13, 23, June 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 11, less amounts voted in interim supply be now received, read a second time and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Vien in the chair.
James Lorimer Ilsley: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1942, the sums of $163,431,321, $35,000,000 and $48,453,183.14, respectively be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Ilsley thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 103, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending the 31st March, 1912.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Vien in the chair.
Grote Stirling: I take it that both the
clauses and the schedules are in the customary form. Is there anything unusual?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Not that I know of. I have not the previous acts before me. There is a borrowing power in section 5 but I do not think it is at all unusual.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


THE ROYAL ASSENT
Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Government House, Ottawa,
June 14, 1941.
Sir:-
I have the honour to inform you that the Right Hon. Sir Lyman P. Duff, Chief Justice
of Canada, acting as deputy of His Excellency [DOT]the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber on this day at 3 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient servant,
F. L. C. Pereira, Assistant Secretary to the Governor General.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).
The house having reverted to the order for questions:

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	Is James MaeKay, of Eastern Woodworkers, building any homes for War-time Housing Limited, in Nova Scotia?
2.	Has James MaeKay, or Eastern Woodworkers, received a contract from War-time Housing Limited?
3.	If so, were any tenders called for the construction of these houses?
4.	Has any land been purchased in Nova Scotia by War-time Housing Limited?
5.	If so, from whom was the land purchased?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	No. The building project at New Glasgow, N.S., has been abandoned,
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	Answered by 1.
4.	Yes.
5.	In Halifax (a) A parcel of land known as the St. Paul's glebe lands was purchased from the rector warden and vestry of St. Paul's Church, Halifax, N.S.; (b) a, single lot to round out the parcel was purchased from the Home Realty Limited, Halifax, N.S.
In Dartmouth (a) a parcel from Michael Lahey and wife; (b) a parcel from Thomas Notting, K.C.
In Eastern Passage (near Dartmouth) (a) a parcel from Allen Horne, Esq.; (b) a parcel from Ralph Horne, Esq.
In New Glasgow, land was expropriated, but the project has been abandoned and the expropriation of land cancelled.


CAN ADLAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION ASSISTANT GENERAL MANAGER
Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	In regard to return No. 84C, what adjustments referred to in answer No. 14 were made?
The Royal Assent

2.	What reply was given to the auditor general to questions (a) and (b) in the last paragraph of his letter referring to C.B.C. accounts, addressed to the minister and dated February 25, 1941?
3.	What policy and under what legal authority are future arrangements regarding such matters to be made?


Mr. HOWE:: See minister's statement, pages 4308, 4309 and 4311, unrevised Hansard.


Major James William Coldwell: Referring to the
answer given in reply to my question, I have looked through Hansard at the pages mentioned and I cannot find the answer. I wonder if this question might be reconsidered.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall bring my hon. friend's observations to the attention of the minister.


AWNINGS FOR JACKSON BUILDING, OTTAWA
Mr. HOMUTH:: 1.	Is consideration being given to the placing of awnings on the Jackson building, Ottawa?
2.	If so, what is the estimated cost of equipping this building with awnings?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	No, as far as the Public Works Department is concerned.
2.	Answered by No. 1. But the Department of National Defence for Air have thought it advisable to buy for the drafting-room windows of that building awnings the cost of which is $60.


CONGRATULATIONS TO MR. SPEAKER ON FULFILMENT OF DUTIES AS PRESIDING OFFICER
Douglas Gooderham Ross: May I
take this opportunity to congratulate Mr. Speaker upon the magnificent way in which he has conducted the affairs of the House of Commons?


Major James William Coldwell: That is unanimous, Mr. Speaker.


Georges Parent: I am afraid when all men speak well of me.


THE ROYAL ASSENT
[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major A. R. Thompson, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, His Honour, the deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, the house went up to the Senate.
And having returned.
[Mr. Coldwell.J
Mr. Speaker informed the house that the deputy of His Excellency the Governor General had been pleased to give in His Majesty's name the royal assent to the following bills:
An Act to amend The Excise Act, 1934.
An Act to amend the Customs Tariff.
An Act to amend The Excess Profits Tax Act, 1940.
An Act to incorporate General Security Insurance Company of Canada.
An Act to incorporate The Ukrainian Catholic Mission of the Most Holy Redeemer.
An Act respecting The Ontario and Minnesota Power Company Limited.
An Act respecting The Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Company.
An Act respecting British Columbia Telephone Company.
An Act to amend The War Exchange Conservation Act, 1940.
An Act to amend the Indian Act.
An Act to amend the Pension Act.
An Act to amend the Alberta Natural Resources Act.
An Act to amend The War Charities Act, 1939.
An Act to authorize the levying of Duties in respect of Successions.
An Act to amend The Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act.
An Act to control the Export of Game.
An Act respecting Consolidated Fire and Casualty insurance Company.
An Act to incorporate The Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation of James Bay.
An Act respecting United Grain Growers Limited.
An Act to amend the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act.
An Act to amend the Yukon Act.
An Act to amend The Prairie Farm Assistance Act, 1939.
An Act to amend the Income War Tax Act.
An Act to amend the Labour Department Act.
An Act to amend the Special War Revenue Act.
An Act to authorize the provision of moneys to meet certain capital expenditures made and capital indebtedness incurred by the Canadian National Railways system during the calendar year 1941, to provide for the refunding of financial obligations and to authorize the guarantee by His Majesty of certain securities to be issued by the Canadian National Railway Company.
An Act to amend the Senate and House of Commons Act.
An Act for the relief of John Hubert Fox.
An Act for the relief of Dorothy Jean Fletcher.
An Act for the relief of Lillian Bald Ellison.
An Act for the relief of Clavell Filliter Stroud.
An Act for the relief of Mary Marion Grey McKay.
An Act for the relief of Frances Goldberg Joseph.
An Act for the relief of Alice Weill Sedlak.
An Act for the relief of Marguerite Marie Rita Duchesneau Goulet.
An Act for the relief of Edna Irene Yertaw.

The Late Arthur B. Damude
An Act for the relief of Gordon Alexander Cowan.
An Act for the relief of Marion Cameron MacLaurin Nelson.
An Act for the relief of Kenneth Grier Thornton.
An Act for the relief of Hubert Earl Roberts.
An Act for the relief of Annie Elizabeth Cunningham Wheatley.
An Act for the relief of Dorothy Theresa Downard Street.
An Act for the relief of John Greig.
An Act for the relief of Lloyd Charles Edward Francis Fulford.
An Act for the relief of Joseph Gaston Yvano Rene Dupuis.
An Act for the relief of Audrey Alexine Stephenson Smyth.
An Act for the relief of Lillian Shapiro Denenberg.
An Act for the relief of David Rainville.
An Act for the relief of Hortense Bienvenue.
An Act for the relief of Evelyn May Gray Ladouceur.
An Act for the relief of Marie Jeanne Germaine Grenier Legendre.
An Act for the relief of Marie Adeline Alice Miron Lefebvre.
An Act for the relief of Helenorah Koturah Donowa Harris.
An Act for the relief of Henry John Barrington Nevitt.
An Act for the relief of Pauline Myrle Barr Gauld.
An Act for the relief of Marie Alice Veillet Piche.
An Act for the relief of Gertrud Kohn Storper.
An Act for the relief of Frederick William James Hobbs.
An Act for the relief of Vivienne Rhodes Whitaker Storey.
An Act for the relief of Dora Lemisch Boyer.
An Act for the relief of Muriel Mary Murphy Carvey.
An Act for the relief of Eileen Henrietta Seville Orehin.
An Act for the relief of Edythe Gertrude Dover Schawl.
An Act for the relief of Agnes Mary Johnson Messett.
An Act for the relief of Manson Wilton Roach.
An Act for the relief of Elizabeth (Elspeth) Brown Rattray Selkirk Morphy.
An Act for the relief of Stanley Jackson.
An Act for the relief of Vera Black Slatkin.
An Act for the relief of Stella Cohen Baboushkin.
An Act for the relief of Kate Abramovitch Reinblatt.
An Act for the relief of Dora Catherine Sullivan Evans.
An Act for the relief of Ilona Klein, otherwise known as Eleanor Klein.
An Act for the relief of Leonard Moore.
An Act for the relief of Ann Elsie Buckley.
An Act for the relief of Dorrien Edson Weaver.
An Act for the relief of David MacDonald.
An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1942.
An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1942.
On motion of Mr. Lapointe (Quebec East) the house adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until Monday, November 3, 1941, at three o'clock.
Monday, November 3, 1941