1941-05-23

[Stage Direction]
Fourth report of standing committee on banking and commerce.-Mr. Moore.
Second report of the standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government.-Mr. Howden.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) based upon a press report dated yesterday of a statement made by Professor Watson Kirkconnell of McMaster university to the effect that fifth-column activity in Canada is serious. I quote the article:
Giving what he described as examples of communist publications now appearing in Canada, Doctor Kirkconnell said there was a Hungarian-language weekly newspaper published in Toronto which "put on a chameleon act and emerged as a 100 per cent democratic paper" after the communist party was outlawed.
"The technique employed was to substitute the word 'Democracy' for the word 'Communism' in its columns and carry on much as before". The paper is "obviously Communist in sympathy", Dr. Kirkconnell said and "is still able to carry on in the heart of Toronto because it has found a formula that pays lip service to democracy."
Dr. Kirkconnell said there was a Ukrainian paper published in Smoky Lake, Alta.
"With consummate cleverness, every item of news or editorial opinion is conducive to a communist point of view in its reader."
The great majority in each group of European Canadians is loyal to Canada and their foreign-language press has rendered invaluable service to Canada, Dr. Kirkconnell said.
Will the minister have this statement investigated, and, if he finds the facts are as stated, take appropriate action to have these papers suppressed?


Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: Under the defence of
Canada regulations the censorship of newspapers and, of course, the suppression of any newspaper, come under the Department of the Secretary of State. The mounted police also supervise this kind of activity. I will see that an answer is given to my hon. friend. I notice that the names of the two newspapers were not given. Perhaps we might find that out.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: Yes.
3090	COMMONS
Labour Conditions-Weston Plant



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. G. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour based on a report in the Toronto Telegram of May 22. It states:
Six hundred employees of the Canadian Acme Screw and Gear Company, Limited, walked out on strike to-day from the company's Weston Road plant.
Ninety-five per cent of the firm's work is in the interest of Canadian and British war production.
The report goes on to say:
The company has already appealed to the authorities at Ottawa in connection with the stoppage of work on the war contracts and a representative of the dominion's Department of Labour is conferring with the management and the workers.
In view of the seriousness of the stoppage of work at this plant, would the minister care to make a statement?
Hon. NORMAN A. McLARTY (Minister of Labour): This matter was first called to my attention at a rather late hour last night. We have been dealing with it this morning. I understand, and I do not wish to make this statement to the house except so far as my understanding permits me, that the men are returning to work this afternoon. On the other hand, I should like to make it very definite that so far as my knowledge goes the men have not yet returned to work but we are hoping they will. The department is definitely dealing with the matter.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: If I may be permitted a supplementary question, does the minister know whether these employees are organized in a labour union, or unorganized?


Mr. McLARTY:: My information is that they are not organized and do not belong to any union.



SIR JOHN A. MACDONALD REQUEST FOR UNVEILING OF TABLET AT ST. PATRICK, QUE., ON FIFTIETH ANNIVERSARY OF DEATH

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JEAN -FRAN QOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata):	I have a question to ask of the
Minister of Mines and Resources. In connection with the commemoration ceremony which will be held in Kingston at Cataraqui cemetery in memory of Sir John A. Macdonald in the first week of June, may I remind the minister that five years ago a 
tablet was built and placed under his instructions in front of the former summer residence of Sir John A. Macdonald at St. Patrick in Temiscouata county. I would ask if that tablet could not be unveiled at the same time that the commemoration ceremony is held in Kingston.
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Mines and Resources):: I shall make inquiry into
the matter with a view to seeing if my hon. friend's wishes can be met.



RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING


Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, if we may revert to motions for a moment, I wish to move:
That estimates Nos. 403, 404, 416 and 417, approved and reported upon by the standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government, be referred to the committee of supply.


Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Yale):: Will the minister explain to the house, just what is entailed in this motion?


James Lorimer Ilsley: These are items in the
estimates which were considered and reported on by the standing committee on railways and shipping. The report is in the hands of the Clerk of the house at the moment. Before these items can be enacted into law and a bill passed making them a charge on the consolidated revenue fund, they must be considered and passed by the committee of supply. This motion is simply to refer them to the committee of supply.


Grote Stirling: They were referred to
the committee on railways and shipping before reaching the committee of supply?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Fournier (Hull) in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
20.	That the said schedule III be further amended by deleting therefrom the items under the caption "building materials".
Resolution agreed to.
21.	That any enactment founded on this resolution shall be deemed to have come into force on the thirtieth day of April, one thousand nine hundred and forty-one and to have applied on all goods imported or taken out of warehouse for consumption on and after that day and to have applied to goods previously imported for which no entry for consumption was made

Special War Revenue Act
before that day, provided however that any enactment increasing the tax on glucose and grape sugar in accordance with resolution No. 17 shall be deemed to have come into force on March 31, 1941.
James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Chairman, while this resolution makes the taxes effective from a certain date, there have been changes in the effective dates of several of these taxes. For instance, the tax on transportation fares has been collected since May 3, and the motion-picture tax from and including May 19. The amusement tax on other than motion-picture theatres will be in effect from a date to be proclaimed by the governor in council, and the exemption of soldiers' fares is effective from May 17. I explain this to the committee merely because all this will be provided for in the legislation, and it is the legislation which becomes law, not the resolutions.


Grote Stirling: In the meanwhile, this
resolution is distinctly inaccurate, is it not?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes.


Mr. PERLEY:: On page 20 of the resolutions, under the heading "appendix to the budget," appear the words, "budget papers presented by the Honourable J. L. Ilsley, M.P., for the information of parliament." There is one item in the appendix which is not in the resolutions, but it was mentioned in the budget speech, and there was some slight reference to it in the debate which took place on the budget. There has been a general discussion on these resolutions, but nothing in the resolutions pertains to this matter. Before the resolution carries, would it be permissible to ask a question with respect to the item?


James Lorimer Ilsley: What is the subject matter? Does it pertain to any of these resolutions?


Ernest Edward Perley: It pertains to an expenditure which will have to be made from the revenue derived from the taxes imposed under these resolutions. On page 35 there is a slight reference to it. I refer to the operations of the Canadian wheat board and the expenses thereof. On page 48 there is a definite reference to the same subject. May I ask about it?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No.


Ernest Edward Perley: Well, if I may not ask a question about it now, what is the good of this appendix?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Chairman, we are discussing resolution 21, and according to the rules the discussion must be strictly relevant to the resolution.


Ernest Edward Perley: I understand that, but when resolution 21 is carried, that disposes of all the resolutions.


James Lorimer Ilsley: No; there are two more, and then I have to move that they be concurred in.


Ernest Edward Perley: All I wish to know is, when all these resolutions are carried, may I ask a question with reference to the appendix?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not know. That will have to be considered' when we reach it. It cannot come up now.


[Stage Direction]
Resolution agreed to.
1. That the definition of "British company" in section thirteen of the said act be amended by deleting therefrom the following words "and includes any association of persons formed in the said kingdom or in any such dominion or possession on the plan known as Lloyds whereby each associate underwriter becomes liable for a stated, limited or proportionate part of the whole amount insured by a policy."
Mr. CASSELMAN:: What is the effect of
this?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Resolutions 1 and 2 must be considered together. Resolution 2 is the important one. Under resolution 16 of the Special War Revenue Act it is provided that there shall be a tax of ten per cent upon premiums paid to British or foreign insurance companies doing business in Canada, unless they are authorized to do business here either by the dominion or by a province. The Foreign Insurance Companies Act provides that a foreign insurance company shall not do business in Canada without being authorized so to do by the dominion, and resolution 16 of the Special War Revenue Act is merely supplementary to the provision of the Foreign Insurance Companies Act to which I have referred. I think it is fair to say that it is a means of control rather than a revenue measure, although perhaps that might be disputed in the courts, and I would not make any authoritative statement on the point. In order, however, to make resolution 16 of the Special War Revenue Act accord with the whole principle on which the Foreign Insurance Companies Act is founded, it is necessary to delete the words "or of any province thereof", so that a foreign insurance company must get the authorization of the dominion to do business in Canada, and if it does not do so, it will be subject to a ten per cent tax upon its premiums. That is the effect of resolution 2. The effect of resolution 1 is to ensure that the status of Lloyds remains exactly as it is, that Lloyds is not affected by that change.


Grote Stirling: As I understand it, the minister asked on May 20 that these two resolutions should stand because he desired to give further consideration to representations which had been made.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes.

3.092
Special War Revenue Act


Grote Stirling: And now no amendment is offered?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No.


Grote Stirling: Therefore the minister has considered those representations and has not seen fit to change the resolutions?


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is correct.


[Stage Direction]
Resolution agreed to.
2. That subsection one of section sixteen of the said act be amended by deleting the words "or of any province thereof" where they appear in the fourteenth line thereof.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Ernest Edward Perley: Will the minister now consider allowing a question on the appendix to the budget?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker, it is not in order.


Ernest Edward Perley: All right.



EXCISE ACT

[Stage Direction]
Mr. ILSLEY moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 75, to amend the Excise Act, 1934.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 77, to amend the War Exchange Conservation Act, 1940.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 76, to amend the Customs Tariff.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 78, to amend the Excess Profits Tax Act, 1940.
He said: The bills with respect to the Special War Revenue Act and the Succession Duties Act I cannot introduce until the next sitting of the house. I have not had time to examine them.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
[Stage Direction]

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Vien in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Z-i-1. Departmental administration, $552,180.
Ernest Edward Perley: Will the minister explain the increase and at this point make a general statement?


Hon. W. P. MULOCK (Postmaster General) :: I propose to do so. In presenting the post office estimates for the consideration of the committee, I wish to point out that the requirements for 1941-42 show an increase of $1,923,942.50, or approximately 4-96 per cent over the appropriation in the main estimates for 1940-41. However, the appropriation granted for 1940-41 proved insufficient, and supplementary estimates totalling $782,777 were voted by parliament some weeks ago. If this additional appropriation is taken into account, the increase in the amount requested for 1941-42 is only 2-88 per cent. It is also desirable to direct the attention of the committee to the postal revenue for the year 1940-41, and I may be permitted to quote figures as regards gross receipts, which constitute the standard for measuring increased volume of mail.
Gross revenue for 1940-41, subject to final verification, shows an increase of over $3,649,900 compared with 1939-40, or an increase of 8-25 per cent. As pointed out on more than one occasion by my predecessors, increases in postal revenue must necessarily be reflected in increased expenditures under such headings as salaries of post office staffs to handle mail, printing and stationery and other supplies used in postal work, as well as conveyance of mail by railway and steamboat. Further, in times like the present, the department must expect to pay higher prices for mail services which have to be readvertised. It does not seem unreasonable that the Post Office Department should require an increase of less than three per cent in appropriation in view of the increase of more than eight per cent in gross revenue in 1940-41.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Under departmental
administration, it is not very often that opposition members have an opportunity of expressing appreciation of some actions of a minister, but I am in the happy position to-day of being able to compliment the minister to some extent.


Frederick Clayton Casselman: Are there any rural routes to be cancelled?

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John Ritchie MacNicol: I am going to speak
of Toronto. There may be a lot of trouble about rural routes, but I am pleased to compliment the minister upon the effort he made during the last Christmas rush in that city to eliminate partisanship from appointments.
Last Christmas I asked the minister privately to endeavour to eliminate politics or partisanship from appointments of temporary "Christmas rush" clerks in Toronto, and I am pleased to say that he went further than any other Postmaster General I have had to do with in that regard. I am not going to make any complaint; I simply wish to compliment him, and I hope that next Christmas he will go still further and eliminate partisanship altogether. That is all I have to say about that.
In my part of the city, with which the minister is well acquainted, we have had Saturday afternoon deliveries in the past. I am not asking that this be done under present circumstances, when it is necessary to eliminate needless expenditures. We are not, however, getting such deliveries now. nor am I advocating it except to business men on St. Clair avenue. I believe I brought this matter up once before. If the business men and merchants on St. Clair avenue are not getting Saturday afternoon delivery- and that would apply to Davenport, King street and other main streets-they should get such deliveries, if possible.
We have some fine branch offices in Toronto, while others may not be up to the standard the minister would like. On warm days in summer and cold days in winter I have wondered whether proper conveniences are provided for the posties. Most of them have to go down in the basement to do their work and are more or less congested, and other conveniences are perhaps not as satisfactory as they should be. As the minister knows, in Toronto-and I suppose the same thing applies elsewhere-many of them have very long routes. The one who comes to my house has an exceptionally long route. It is not an easy job; they have to work hard and they do a good job. I think everyone is pleased with what the posties in Toronto do, and no doubt that applies to other cities. Therefore I hope that when the department is making a survey of postal stations, the improvement of conditions for the posties themselves will be kept in mind.
I have been wondering about the salary paid to a man like the Toronto director, and I suppose the same applies to the Montreal director. Mr. A. M. Gibson in Toronto has a most responsible position and does his work 14873-195*
exceptionally well. The whole city is proud of him. The salary paid him is altogether out of keeping with what a man should receive who has charge of what I assume is the most prosperous postal centre in Canada, is it not?


William Pate Mulock: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The same thing would apply to the director in Montreal. Their salaries are far too low for those two responsible positions. No business of any magnitude would pay to such men, having so much under their charge, such low salaries as those two gentlemen are paid. Perhaps I should not bring this matter up, no one has spoken to me about it, but looking over the report of the auditor general, I notice these two small salaries. I am not so familiar with the situation in Winnipeg and Vancouver.


William Pate Mulock: I wish to thank the hon. member for Davenport for his kind remarks in reference to myself. I was very much surprised, but I appreciate them perhaps even more for that reason.


Frederick Clayton Casselman: The Christmas spirit.


William Pate Mulock: It is a little early-


Frederick Clayton Casselman: Last Christmas.


William Pate Mulock: Perhaps the hon. member believes in early shopping.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Looking for better things next Christmas.


William Pate Mulock: As the hon. member mentioned Christmas employees, no doubt he will be pleased to know that we had 1,072 returned soldiers employed in Toronto last Christmas, the largest number of returned men, I think, that had ever received employment at that time of the year.
In connection with the supplementary estimates, the hon. member for Cumberland asked as to the possibility of Saturday afternoon deliveries. I explained to him that it was an expensive proposition, running into several hundred thousand dollars. I have here a statement showing that at the volume of business of a year ago, by discontinuance of the Saturday afternoon delivery an amount approximating $300,000 a year was saved. In the Post Office Department it is an important matter whether we make money or have to go to the Minister of Finance and ask for more.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is the post office not the only department that really does make money for the country?


William Pate Mulock: If we can make money it saves that much taxation, or new taxes being imposed. Therefore I am afraid I
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cannot give my hon. friend much encouragement at the present time about Saturday afternoon delivery.
With regard to the number of employees and the work in Toronto, the hon. member said he thought there might be some additional staff. I would advise him that since May 1, 1940, there have been seventy-seven new positions in the post office at Toronto; and if the volume continues to increase, as it gives every indication of doing, it will be necessary to make still further staff increases there.
I shall take into consideration with the officials of the department what the hon. member said about our capable district director at Toronto, Mr. Gibson. He is recognized as one of the outstanding post office officials in this country. As the hon. member said, Mr. Gibson is doing an excellent job in the position he now occupies.
The matter of salaries of employees is one on which I suggest the hon. member make representations to the civil service commission, because they deal with it and not this department.


Mr. HATFIELD:: With regard to rural
mail drivers who took contracts during the depression at half the cost of carrying the mail, does the minister contemplate giving them any increase, for example, a ten per cent increase?


William Pate Mulock: Will the hon. member be kind enough to wait until item 245 is called, because the matter he mentions comes under that item?


Mr. McIYOR:: I should like to thank the Postmaster General for the promptness with which he and his staff answer correspondence. I hope he will have time, patience and wisdom to work out a better way for our rural mail carriers than there is at the present time.


The CHAIRMAN:: The minister just
pointed out that rural mail carriers come under a following item, No. 245.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I thought it better to be
early than late.


Grote Stirling: The Postmaster General has just mentioned that, generally speaking, the employees of the post office come to him through the civil service commission. There is a matter which has been raised by correspondence more than once regarding post office employees. I know there are post offices and postmasters of different grades, operating under different circumstances. I am not clear, however, as to who employs the assistants in those smaller post offices. Is it the postmaster, or are those appointments made through the civil service commission?


William Pate Mulock: In post offices with annual revenues under $3,000, the postmaster appoints his assistant, if any, himself. The same I think is true of all post offices other than the regular staff post offices. In all the revenue post offices the postmaster engages his own staff.


Mr. GILLIS:: I was encouraged to hear
the hon. member for Davenport compliment the minister upon his impartiality in the administration of the department. I am encouraged because I have had some correspondence with the minister, and what the hon. member has said makes me hopeful.
I have had some correspondence within the last month or so from the mail carriers' association with regard to a war bonus to enable them to meet the increased cost of living. Industrialists and others have been giving their employees consideration along these lines. I understand that the wages of these mail carriers have remained fixed, and that they have been seeking a bonus to compensate for the increased cost of living. Has the minister anything in mind with respect to the matter?


William Pate Mulock: I take it that the hon. member means letter carriers rather than rural mail carriers?


Clarence Gillis: I mean the letter carriers, who are represented by the mail carriers' association.
I have had some correspondence also with the department concerning two towns which are asking for new post offices. They are small towns, and the buildings in which the postal work is carried on are very small. I have particular reference to the town of Dominion, where the building housing the post office is a disgrace. The cost of replacement would not be very great, because a building sufficient to carry on the work at that point would not have to be large. Does the minister intend to do anything in that regard?
In some of the rural communities, where perhaps only sixteen or eighteen families are served by a post office, the offices have been closed for reasons of economy. In one case fifteen families have thus been left without postal service, and it is necessary for them to walk or drive a considerable distance in order to pick up their mail at another post office. While only fifteen families are affected, the matter is just as serious to them as a discontinuance of mail service would be to the city of Toronto. It is exactly the same thing in point of inconvenience to the individual family. One of the fundamental principles

Supply-Post Office
of the Post Office Department is service to the people, and I do not think it would cost
so very much to maintain the service in these areas.


William Pate Mulock: The hon. member mentioned that he would like a new postal building at the town of Dominion. Fortunately or unfortunately, the Post Office Department does not build post offices; they come under the Department of Public Works. I suggest that the hon. member draw this matter to the attention of the minister in charge of that department.
With regard to the discontinuance of certain rural routes, to which I understand the hon. member had reference, it is quite true that where there was a very small volume of business and very little revenue, in the interests of economy some of these routes have been curtailed and others discontinued.
This, however, has not been done on any wholesale basis, and if there is a case of real hardship; if people are suffering because of the lack of proper mail facilities, I can assure the hon. member that the officials of the department will be glad to go into the matter and give it their best consideration. If, after the hon. member has discussed it with them, the officials believe it to be a matter that requires correction, certainly that action will be taken.


Clarence Gillis: I am referring particularly to the post office at Broughton. I have had some correspondence with the department in regard to the matter, but as yet it has not been satisfactorily settled.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Under this item I see an amount of 8150,000 for mail bags, which represents an increase of $70,000 over last year. What is the reason for the increase?


William Pate Mulock: Unliquidated encumbrances outstanding, amounting to $11,234.32, were transferred from 1939-40 to 1940-41, and therefore became a charge against the latter appropriation. Further, the drastically reduced appropriation for 1940-41 rendered it impossible to purchase new bags to replace the worn out equipment, the entire vote being utilized solely for repairs. New bags must be purchased to meet the needs of the service during 1941-42, and this amount is required to provide for them and for the increased cost of cotton duck, which amounts to fourteen per cent at the present time. The hon. member will appreciate the fact that there is a great deal of mail, soldier as well as civilian, going to the old country, and in many cases there are considerable delays in having the
bags returned. A certain number of them are not returned, and of course some are lost through enemy action.


Clarence Gillis: Has the minister anything to say on the question of a cost of living bonus to the mail carriers?


Thomas Vien: I should think that
would come under item 245.


William Pate Mulock: This is a matter which applies to all classes of civil servants, and therefore a matter of government policy. It is not a question for one department to deal with, so that I could not make any statement at the present time.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: What is the procedure with regard to the letting of contracts for carrying mail say from a railway centre to a rural post office? Are tenders called for, or what system is used?


William Pate Mulock: If the amount is over 8200 it is a matter of advertising and tendering.


George Hugh Castleden: And if it is under $200?


William Pate Mulock: The contract may be
awarded by the Postmaster General.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The appropriation for publicity and advertising shows an increase of $13,000, while the printing and stationery item is increased by $22,600. Will the minister give the reason for these increases?


William Pate Mulock: If I may take the stationery item first, the increase is brought about by increased business. The more business we have the more stationery we need. Incidentally the prices of stationery have increased, in some instances very greatly. For instance, as of the date when these estimates were prepared, which was some weeks ago, there had been an increase in the price of wire waste baskets amounting to twenty per cent. Typewriter erasers had gone up twenty-two per cent; index cards, thirty-two per cent; pins, twenty-eight per cent; tabulating paper, twenty-four per cent; typewriter oil, one hundred per cent, and so on. There are numerous other increases, but I do not suppose the hon. member wants the whole list. In addition, we use a great deal of jute twine in half pound rolls. There has been an increase of twenty-five per cent in the price of that twine, and on this item alone it is estimated that there will be an increased expenditure amounting to nearly SI 1,000 per annum.


Mr. McILRAITH:: Has the minister any information covering the revenue or profits of the department, say for the last five years?
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William Pate Mulock: I can give the hon. member the profits for the last three years.


George James McIlraith: That will be sufficient. Mr. MULOCK: The figures are as follows:
1938-	39-
Gross revenue	
$42,896,178	65Net revenue	
35,288,220	01Expenditures	
35,456,181	81Deficit on operations	167,961	801939-	40-Gross revenue	
44,208,369	48Net revenue	
30,729,104	79Expenditures	
30,725,869	60Surplus	
3,235	191940-	41-Gross revenue	
48,142,127	83Net revenue	
40,383,365	45Expenditures	
38,099,673	76Surplus	
1,683,691	69
Some small variation might have to be made in these figures, because it is possible that a few outstanding accounts will come in during the next week or so.
Mr. O'BRIEN: Without wishing to detract from the splendid record of the postal department, 1 should like the minister to give if possible an estimate of the value of the stamps used on cheques and drafts. The sale of these stamps constitutes a revenue for the department which perhaps should be credited to the excise division of the Department of National Revenue.


William Pate Mulock: The accounting system
which would be necessary to keep track of this would probably cost as much as the money derived from the stamp sales. Would it be fair to say that all the revenue from sales should be applied to that purpose? After all, the Post Office Department pays for the printing of the stamps and for their distribution to the post offices throughout the country. So far as rural and revenue post offices are concerned we pay a commission to the postmaster, so that at least some of the revenue would have to be applied to the Post Office Department.
Mr. O'BRIEN:	I was asking for information only. As a matter of fact, it is a great convenience that the excise division permits merchants, particularly those in the smaller communities, to use postage stamps. I certainly would not want the present system changed. I thought the minister might have some idea of the amount involved, although frankly I do not know how he could arrive at it.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: With regard to
the increase of S13,000 in publicity and advertising, why should the postal department have to publicize itself?


William Pate Mulock: The increase in this vote will be sufficient to enable the department

to carry out a modest programme of general postal publicity. It is essential and in keeping with sound business practice to advertise the various regular postal services and facilities to Canadian business men and the public in time of war as well as in time of peace. During a period of hostilities unusual conditions arise which call for changes in the service and special provision to handle the postal business of the public. It is necessary to keep the public adequately informed on such matters. Further, it is felt that the $47,000,000 revenue of the post office should be protected by publicity. The appropriation requested, $20,000, represents less than one-half of one per cent of the departmental turnover. With the addition of $30,000 to cover publicity for air mail, the advertising appropriation will be just slightly over one per cent of the postal business. This is very low in comparison with advertising budgets of commercial concerns, which frequently are five to seven per cent of the turnover.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I do not quite understand why the Post Office Department should have to advertise. It is not in competition with anyone, and there is only one way in which you can send a letter through the mails. Is it necessary to advertise in order to get people to use the mails more freely? Perhaps this is one of the things which should be cut down. Perhaps we should not have so much mail at this time.


William Pate Mulock: I am entirely in disagreement with the hon. member for St. Paul's on this point. The Bell Telephone company advertise practically continuously; the Ontario hydro electric commission advertises, as do other utilities. The business of the Post Office Department is not restricted to the handling of letters. During last year we did upwards of $173,000,000 in money order business and $14,000,000 in postal note business. These are just two of the items. We have a business turnover of approximately $1,000,000 per day, which is quite a large volume of business.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
2J/B. Post offices, including salaries and other expenses of headquarters and staff post offices and supplies and equipment for revenue post offices, $15,115,343.
Ernest Edward Perley: Will the minister give us a break-down of the increase?


William Pate Mulock: I should like to know what detail the hon. member desires. Perhaps I can break it down into the main headings and then the hon. member can indicate whether he wishes further information on the different divisions.

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Ernest Edward Perley: There is only a small increase in the staff.


William Pate Mulock: The details are:
Total salaries, post offices... $14,517,903
Commissions to postmasters on
savings bank business	 6,000
Travelling expenses	 1,750
Printing and stationery	 204,140
Equipment and maintenance...	350,000
Telegrams and telephones		32,400
Sundries	 3,150
Total	 $15,115,343


Mr. BOUCHER:: Has the Postmaster
General made any provision for extension of the postal service in the urban area immediately adjacent to the city of Ottawa? I think it is well within his knowledge that within the last year or so there has been a great increase in population, particularly in the Westboro area, Laurentian View and Hilson avenue districts. Last Christmas there was serious congestion in the postal services for that area, the mail being delayed anywhere from five to fifteen days. I am pleased to report that in pursuance of a request made to the department, certain investigations of the facilities in this area have been made, and I understand it was recommended by the officials that five additional carriers be appointed for this area. The situation calls, I think, for the establishment of a postal terminal there. An extension of rural mail delivery in certain sections would also greatly facilitate postal deliveries. Has any appropriation been made to improve the postal service in that area, particularly in the rush period at Christmas? I hope that action will be taken before the next Christmas rush comes on.
I am much obliged to the officials of the department and to the Postmaster General for the courtesies I have always received at their hands, but I am again bringing this matter to the attention of the minister in the hope that provision will be made in the estimates for improving this service.


William Pate Mulock: I can assure the hon. member that this matter is receiving the earnest consideration of the officials of the department and no doubt they will bring it to my attention, especially in view of the hon. member's remarks this afternoon. I cannot, of course, give him any assurance until I learn just what the facts are, but I shall be glad to look into the matter in the very near future.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am sure the minister is delighted with the rapidity with which his items are passing. I wish to bring to his attention what may seem to be a small matter, but in my judgment it is an important one. If this is not the right item upon which to bring the matter up, or if I am not addessing myself to the right department I trust the minister will bear with me and bring my observations to the attention of the proper authority.
The hon. member for Churchill not being here at the moment I want to say a word on behalf of this outpost of Canada, the port of Churchill on Hudson bay. Early in August of this year, as has been done for I have forgotten just how many years, an excursion will be run to Churchill by the Canadian National Railway. A large proportion of those who go on this excursion are from the United States, the purpose being to bring into the country United States dollars. I understand that the excursion is going to be run again this year. I went on it myself last year, and I must say I had difficulty in finding the post office at Churchill. I am not finding fault with anyone there because they were all very courteous-


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: Do not advertise Churchill post office.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I can advertise the
courteousness of the post office officials, anyway. They were just what the Postmaster General would wish for in the way of courteousness and kindliness. But the post office facilities were altogether inadequate, and the building itself could be made more attractive. It struck me that visitors from the United States, wandering up to this little post office, would think, "This is the kind of postal service Canada supplies at one of its ports"-not knowing, of course, that a train runs to Churchill only once every two weeks, or even less frequently. I thought it was my duty to bring the matter to the minister's attention to see if something could not be done to brighten up that little office so that a Canadian visiting it amongst all these citizens of the United States would be proud of it. I myself sent out three or four hundred postcards and letters from the post office when I was there. I wanted my constituents back home, of course, to know that I was on the job, and the Americans were making a large use of the post office too. On many occasions there would be about a dozen people trying to get into the little building. This is no reflection on the postal officials there, because they really deserved credit for being able to do what they did do. But for the sake of the country at large may I suggest that the post office at Churchill be brightened up before the next Canadian National excursion of this year, so that our United States cousins will find an attractive little post office in this out-of-the-way locality.
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William Pate Mulock: I thank the hon. member for Davenport for bringing this matter to my attention. I shall be glad to have a report made immediately on the postal facilities at Churchill.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: The department has an increased amount for advertising this year. It seems to me that the post office savings bank should be used much more extensively, and some money might be spent in advertising it. I am surprised at the large number of Canadians who have no knowledge that the post office carries this banking service. I have never seen any advertisement of it. Will any part of the advertising appropriation be used to promote the use of the post office savings bank?


William Pate Mulock: The assistant deputy has just advised me that he has not available at the moment the figures with respect to the post office savings bank, but I shall be glad to give them to my hon. friend upon some other item. There have recently been substantial withdrawals from the post office savings bank because people have been investing their money in war savings certificates and government bonds. I shall bear in mind what the hon. member suggests with regard to advertising the savings bank. As a matter of fact it is one of the things we do advertise, but we have such a small appropriation for advertising that it has been difficult to carry out a proper advertising campaign, particularly in view of the necessity for considerable advertising of changes in service, proper addressing of letters for overseas, and so forth. Of course any advertising has to be dominion-wide, and the hon. member will agree that S50,000 is a modest sum for advertising. Of that amount $20,000 is in this general item and $30,000 in the air mail item. So that the department have not been able to spread itself in advertising; but I shall be glad to bear in mind my hon. friend's representations.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Could the minister give information as to the amount on deposit in the post office savings account, and some comparison with the amount of money on deposit in the savings bank accounts of the chartered banks of Canada?


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Fournier, Hull):: That comes under item 246.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: I should like a little more information from the minister with respect to Saturday afternoon deliveries. First of all, I commend him for having remembered my inquiry on a previous occasion with respect to this matter. It does not affect business people so much as householders who 
require their letters, papers and periodicals over the week-end. While complimenting the minister upon endeavouring to save $300,000 in expenditures, I should like a little more information as to how this saving is effected. I assume that these mail carriers are employed by the week. The interests of the householder should be paramount to the interests of the mail carrier, although we are all, I believe, in sympathy with the mail carriers; for most of them, at least in my part of the country, are courteous and perform splendid service in carrying on their work. How is this $300,000 saved with respect to these mail carriers, who ordinarily should deliver the mail Saturday afternoon as well as Friday afternoon?


William Pate Mulock: Our letter carriers are on a forty-four hour week. If there were a Saturday afternoon service, and it were operated by the same staff, it would mean a forty-eight hour week; and in order to give service in that extra four hours a proportionate increase in the number of the staff would be necessary, the cost of which has been worked out at approximately $300,000. As a matter of fact, because of the increase of business, the increased cost would probably be, the officials advise me, in the neighbourhood of $325,000 at the present time.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I often visit various places in my riding where stamps and other postal supplies are sold, and in the main I find such places quite satisfactory; but occasionally, without finding any fault with those who handle the affairs of the department, I have wondered if conditions could not be improved with a view of obtaining more revenue. As we all know, the postal department is one department, if not the only one, which really turns in money to the treasury over and above the cost of operation. Is it the only department, Mr. Chairman?


William Pate Mulock: There is the Department of National Revenue.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I had not in mind national revenue; its business is to collect revenue.
I was referring to operating departments. What struck me on various occasions, particularly in visiting these small branch offices-I do not mean those belonging to the department-


William Pate Mulock: Revenue post offices.


John Ritchie MacNicol: -was, whether an effort could not be made to attract the attention of the public to opportunities of saving by sending parcels by parcel post; also, when

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sending money, whether they could not be induced to buy postal notes instead of purchasing bank notes or express orders. Increased transportation of parcels and sales of money orders would bring revenue to the country's own business. I believe that if a survey were made it would be found that, in these two particulars, many of these small post offices in stores and other places of business do not sufficiently present to the public the facilities offered by the department.
Again, while in most places the accommodation is satisfactory, I have found others where it was a job to get in to buy stamps, and if two or three people happen to go there at one time they are kept waiting so long that they go away.


William Pate Mulock: That is one of the reasons why we wanted an increase in the vote for advertising. I am glad to have in this matter the support of the hon. member for Davenport. We have been doing quite a lot in the way of preparing small cards and paper advertising right in our own offices in the Langevin block. It is being done in an economical manner and is working out most satisfactorily. We intend to continue advertising the business of this department, and it is a great thing to know we have in this respect the support of the hon. member for Davenport, if not of the hon. member for St. Paul's.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It would be interesting
to me, and I am sure, to the public, to know what has been the revenue during the past year, first, from the sale of stamps; second, the sale of postal notes; third, parcel post operations.


Alphonse Fournier: I believe that would come more
appropriately under item


William Pate Mulock: With the permission of the hon. member, I will answer a little later.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
2ff3. Inspection and investigation, $934,255.
John Ritchie MacNicol: What exactly does the
inspection cover?


Alphonse Fournier: The details are at page 156 of the
estimates.


William Pate Mulock: There is a small increase.


John Ritchie MacNicol: No; I was not inquiring
about the increases. I wish to know something about the efficient work this staff is doing.


William Pate Mulock: They carry on the general
inspection work of the whole postal service 14873-196
from coast to coast. In the event of shortages, loss of mail, theft, disappearance of articles, or the destruction by fire of anything in transit, the inspection staff is available to make a thorough investigation into the circumstances, and to report. The headquarters of the service is, of course, in Ottawa, under Mr. Fortier. We have found them to be most efficient, and I believe they are doing excellent work for the department. I do not know that anything unusual has happened this year, excepting that, with the increased volume of business, more demands have been made upon them.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is marvellous what the post office officials can do when a letter is misdirected. I am speaking of the great city of Toronto, and I have had occasion to check on it. How they are able to ascertain what has happened to a letter posted in a box in my community I cannot understand, but they are able to trace that letter and give a report with regard to it. It is marvellous. It is interesting to watch the operations of the department and to observe the way in which they detect things. The postal staff in this connection is a credit to the country.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Is the directory service furnished only in the large cities, or is it limited to cities of a certain size? The service given in Calgary is very much appreciated, and yet I have had one or two criticisms. I have never been able to understand why, if an address is improperly given on a letter addressed to some city or town, it is returned to the sender without any effort to locate the addressee of the letter. Has the department a definite policy in that regard?
A certain matter was brought to my attention at Christmas, and I was interested in a report published with reference to the saving of foreign exchange which has been effected by the Post Office Department through the detection of attempts on the part of Canadians to forward American currency to the United States. I know of three or four instances in which, thanks to an extremely efficient branch of the service, considerable foreign exchange was saved. I believe the amount ran into hundreds of thousands of dollars during the past year. Has the minister any information in that respect?


William Pate Mulock: With regard to the first question, about five per cent of the letters go through a small staff which is engaged in each of the large cities to deal with improperly addressed mail. The percentage may vary, but that is the approximate average. Every endeavour is made to locate the correct address.



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I hope the hon. member will not ask too many details about the manner in which we check on foreign exchange.


Manley Justin Edwards: I am not asking how it is done.


William Pate Mulock: We prefer not to give such details, but I can assure the committee that substantial amounts have been detected and reported to the foreign exchange control board for such action as they deem it proper to take. Item agreed to.
Uh Railway Mail Service, $11,113,410.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does this item cover the salaries of all those associated with the railway mail service?


William Pate Mulock: Yes.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Does the vote cover payments made for ocean carriage?


William Pate Mulock: Yes.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: What arrangements are made to determine how much is owing to other countries in connection with the transport of mail?


William Pate Mulock: One of the hon. members representing Vancouver asked me to get some information as to the arrangements we had made in the Atlantic and Pacific services. The hon. member is interested in transit rates, which is one of the most complicated matters in the whole department. I could talk for some time, and I am quite sure that if I read the particulars he would have as much difficulty in understanding the matter as I should have in explaining it. If he would come over to the department I would take him to an authority on the subject, but I suggest that he had better set aside a day or so, because it is a highly complicated matter.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: How much is paid to each of the railways?


William Pate Mulock: The payments are, for
1939-40: Canadian National Railways $3,042,620.06; Canadian Pacific Railway, $3,601,491.06; other lines, $334,614.79, or a total of $6,978,725.91.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Has the minister the figures for 1940-41?


William Pate Mulock: They are not yet available.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: On what basis is the determination arrived at as between the two railways for the handling of mails?


William Pate Mulock: The basic consideration is how the public can best be served. One matter to which I would call the hon. member's attention is the fact that the line from Montreal 
to Vancouver on the Canadian Pacific runs through the southern part of the country, whereas the Canadian National runs through the northern part. We have railway post offices, postal cars which are used for sorting purposes, and these are sent through to the more thickly populated districts. They are expensive but necessary to give service and to expedite the handling of mail. Such a car starts from Montreal, say, loaded, and, as it proceeds west, the bags of mail are dealt with and put off at different points. That space is then available and is used to pick up more mail bags. Mail has been diverted and sent so that that space may be used and that mail car will not proceed largely empty while the department is at the same time paying for space in another car. That is one of the large amounts.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I understand that the Canadian National running in the northern part of the country and the Canadian Pacific running in the southern part would distribute mail to the smaller places along their lines, but if I drop a letter in a box in Toronto for Winnipeg it could go equally well by either railway. What is the determining factor? Is it split fifty-fifty, or how?


William Pate Mulock: My official advises me that it depends to a great extent upon the time that letter is posted; when it is collected and sorted; it is distributed according to the train which will give the better service. Mail between those points is sent by both railways.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Is this estimate increased or decreased from last year?


William Pate Mulock: It is increased.


Thomas Vien: The increase is shown on page 28 of the estimates.


Charles Edward Johnston: I am talking about the grant to the railways.


William Pate Mulock: This is not a grant to the railways. We pay for the space we occupy in those cars for the handling of the mail.


Charles Edward Johnston: But there was approximately $3,000,000 paid to each railway. Was that an increase over last year or a decrease?


William Pate Mulock: An increase.


Charles Edward Johnston: How would that be arrived at. It would not be according to the number of pounds of mail or the number of letters, because the minister says

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they pay according to the space occupied. Why, then, would there be an increase or a decrease?


William Pate Mulock: We had a great deal more business this year than the year before and needed more space.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: In connection with the division of the business between the Canadian National and the Canadian Pacific, the figures given by the minister show that the Canadian Pacific gets a good deal more money. I believe the Canadian National has a considerably larger mileage in Canada than the Canadian Pacific. The answer given to the hon. member for Weyburn is, I think, not satisfactory. As I understand, a train on each railway leaves Toronto at the same time and arrives in Winnipeg at the same time. The same thing applies coming east; two trains leave Winnipeg within fifteen minutes of each other and arrive at Toronto at the same time. What is the policy followed in deciding whether mail will be carried by Canadian National or Canadian Pacific, and why does the Canadian National not receive a larger share of the revenue in view of the fact that it has a much larger number of employees and a much greater mileage in Canada?


William Pate Mulock: It comes back to what I said at first. The Canadian Pacific has the southern route through the west and runs through the larger centres of population. What the post office is interested in is giving service to the public. We could not send the mail up to the north line and then bring it down south; we want it on the through line. In the maritimes my understanding is that the great volume of business goes to the Canadian National. It is a matter of the best service.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I was not suggesting that the mail from Calgary to Toronto should be carried by the Canadian National, or that the mail from Saskatoon should be carried by the Canadian Pacific. It is obvious that mail from points on a main line should be carried on that main line. There are, however, two main lines between Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal, both good lines giving good service. What we wish to find out is how it is decided whether that mail will be carried by Canadian National or Canadian Pacific, and whether there is any reason why the Canadian National should not have a larger share of the business.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: All of it.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I would not go that far, because places served by the Canadian 14873-196i
Pacific must have mail. Where, however, the two lines compete, the Canadian National certainly should have their fair share. I do not suggest they should have all, but they should have the bulk of it. According to the information the minister has given, they are not getting a square deal.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I wish to compliment the department if they are dividing the mail on a fair basis between the two roads. The hon. member evidently does not know that the great west country from which he comes was opened up by the Canadian Pacific and that that railway was largely responsible for the great advancement of those four western provinces. They are both great roads, and for my part I am in favour of that kind of business being split between them.


Charles Edward Johnston: The Canadian Pacific has been well paid for its service.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am not complaining about the business being divided, but I wish to know why the Canadian National is not getting a fair share, and I would say that a fair share would be in proportion to the mileage. The Canadian National has more employees and a much greater mileage.


William Pate Mulock: The business is not
divided on the basis of mileage; it is distributed on the basis of population centres through which the railway goes and the service that the railways can give to the post office so that the post office in turn may give the best service to the public. The hon. member may be quite confident that I shall be delighted to go into this matter fully and see to it that there is no discrimination of any kind against the Canadian National Railways in the handling of our mail. On the other hand, as I think the hon. member admitted a moment ago, he would not, I believe, wish the department to show undue discrimination against the Canadian Pacific Railway.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Which is our largest
taxpayer.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I still have not had an answer to my question. My point is that there is discrimination against our own railway, according to these figures; and I must repeat that the minister has not given any information as to the policy followed in distributing the business between points such as Winnipeg and Toronto or Winnipeg and Montreal, where you have similar services. There is no question about the population or the train services, and we would like to know the policy followed in distributing business.
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William Pate Mulock: The officials advise me that if a mail leaving Winnipeg is going by connecting lines which are Canadian Pacific, it goes Canadian Pacific; if it is going by connecting lines that are Canadian National, it goes Canadian National, and the business is divided up.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am still waiting for an answer as to the policy followed in regard to letters mailed in Winnipeg for delivery in Montreal or Toronto. How does the department determine over which line they are to be sent? It is perfectly clear that letters originating at Canadian National points will go by Canadian National, and vice versa; but what is the policy followed in connection with through mail?


William Pate Mulock: Both railways are used, of course.


Grote Stirling: Has the minister any
information as to what proportion of the transatlantic mail has been lost? I carry on a fairly steady correspondence to and fro, and I am astonished at the very small quantity of mail that apparently is lost, having regard to the dangers through which it has to pass. It would be very interesting if the minister could give us some information as to the losses.


William Pate Mulock: I hesitate to give any
figures of losses, but I would say they have been very small.


Grote Stirling: I am not asking for the definite figures, but perhaps the minister could give us the proportion.


William Pate Mulock: On the whole we have been very fortunate in connection with the loss of mail. I should be glad to show the hon. member the figures in confidence, but I think he will agree that it might be better not to place them on Hansard.


Grote Stirling: I was not asking for
definite figures. I thought it might be of general interest if some sort of proportion could be given, but if the minister prefers not to give it I am quite satisfied.


William Pate Mulock: The losses have been
remarkably small.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
245. Air and land mail services, $11,514,882.
Ernest Edward Perley: I notice a considerable
increase in this item, and particularly an increase in the amount for mail service on land, including rural mail delivery. Is this an added service, or does it represent an increase in the number of rural mail delivery contracts? I believe a great many of these 
rural mail contracts are let at amounts far below what would be reasonable and right. For years many of these contractors have been carrying mail for altogether too little, and under present conditions I do not believe they are getting anything like what they should. Has there been any increase in the rural mail service? How many contracts have been readvertised and how many renewed, and have any been renewed at higher rates without tenders being called? I believe there is a great deal of valuable information that might be given in connection with the rural mail service.
While I am on my feet, will the minister give the reason for the very considerable increase, from $8,800 to $30,000, for publicity; and for the increase of $17,000 in the amount for rural mail delivery boxes?


William Pate Mulock: To deal first with the question of publicity, this vote has to do with air and land mail services, and this increased amount devoted to publicity is almost entirely in connection with the air mail.
As to the rural mail delivery, as the hon. member for Qu'Appelle knows, this is one of the most difficult questions with which the Post Office Department has had to contend, under all postmasters general, for many years past. I realize that in some instances the rural mail carriers find it difficult to get along at present rates. In the past I have discussed from time to time suggestions that have been made by representatives of the rural mail carriers' association, and I believe that at the present time they do not feel this matter should be opened up. They do not wish to come out for a general upward revision, with the war on and conditions as they are; they feel that perhaps this would be a most inopportune time to ask for a change. My officials advise me that figures are not available at the moment giving the number of contracts advertised and renewed, though I may be able to get the information for the hon. member. The hon. gentleman also asked as to renewals at higher prices, but I can assure him that so far as I know there have been none. I understood the hon. member to ask in regard to contracts which had been renewed at higher prices without being advertised.


Ernest Edward Perley: No, the number readvertised at higher prices.


William Pate Mulock: I have not that information. I thought the hon. member referred to contracts renewed at higher rates, without having been advertised.

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Ernest Edward Perley: By any chance could the minister give us the number of renewals by constituencies?


William Pate Mulock: I am sorry I cannot give that information.


Mr. ISNOR:: I was greatly impressed by the apparent growth of the air mail service, which was brought out in the evidence given before the railway committee a few days ago. I was particularly interested because of the improved service which has been given us in the maritimes. If I remember correctly it was about the middle of March when certain members from Nova Scotia applied to the Postmaster General for a more satisfactory service, and about April 15 we were given that service. Now, instead of an uncertain daily service we are given two services a day.
Following the inauguration of this improved service some question was raised as to whether the government was wise in cancelling the contract held by Canadian Airways and entering into a new agreement with Trans-Canada Air Lines. I should like some information from the Postmaster General in connection with the new contract so that I may be in position intelligently to meet the criticism that has been offered from time to time in the maritimes about this particular item. What has been the profit or loss on the carrying of air mail between Halifax and Moncton by Canadian Airways? What is the present situation as to profit and loss, now that Trans-Canada Air Lines has taken over the service? Has there been any improvement since Trans-Canada Air Lines started operations?
We appreciate the improvements which have been made, and we are satisfied that the Post Office Department is doing everything it can to give us good service. It is true that for a long time the department did not seem to know that Halifax existed. I asked repeatedly why Halifax did not appear on the maps which were published year after year. After a long wait we are at last able to say "thank you" to the Post Office Department for this service.


William Pate Mulock: The old service was
operated by Canadian Airways at a daily cost of S136.80. The total distance was 114 miles, that is once each way, at 60 cents. The average daily poundage of mail from Halifax was 51, and the estimated revenue attributable to air mail service was S102. This was made up of 51 pounds of mail, at 50 letters to the pound, at four cents per letter, not taking all of the six cents. There was an estimated daily deficit of $34.80. Under the new service operated by Trans-Canada Air Lines the daily
cost is $212.40 for a two-trip service with a larger plane. The estimated revenue attributable to air mail service is $234, made up of 117 pounds, at 50 letters to the pound, at four cents per letter. There is an estimated daily surplus of $21.60.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: There is a difference of
approximately $55 a day due to improved service. I repeat that we appreciate what has been done in this regard; it demonstrates that it pays to put on an improved service so far as the maritimes are concerned.
I suggest that in all future literature or maps the name of Halifax be shown.


Mr. SLAGHT:: I should like to say a word or two on behalf of the underpaid rural mail carriers. I realize that this is not the time to put forward a plea on behalf of any individual district, but the conditions which prevail in my district are to be found in many other areas where the climatic conditions are similar. There are a great many rural mail carriers in the Parry Sound district, and I have personally investigated most of their contracts. As they have matured and have been renewed I have had to do with them. The mail remuneration for carrying long distances over difficult roads is really pitiful.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Unfair.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: And it becomes unfair. I want to record my views now, even though I am not suggesting in this year of financial stress that this is the time to raise rates. But the moment this unhappy war is over it is one of the first reforms that we as a self-respecting country ought to bring about. We should give these men a remuneration that compensates them for their responsible and arduous duties.


Mr. MARTIN:: Can the hon. member give the committee any information as to the amount of mail that the citizens of Parry Sound receive once every five years?


Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend's well known quality of submerging barbs in honeyed words has not failed him on this occasion. But let me tell him that a comparison of the grades of the scholars in the schools of Windsor with the grades of the scholars in the schools of Parry Sound will indicate that two letters are written or received by the citizens and children of Parry Sound for every one written or received by the constituents of my hon. friend.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is not Windsor.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: I am not including the prolific mail which the five young ladies at Callander receive. But to get back to the conditions facing these rural mail carriers who
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must battle with the elements: I know of one route twenty-one miles in length where in winter the depth of snow ranges from six to eight feet over most of the route. A car simply cannot go through, and the carrier must have a team of horses for the winter season and a car for the rest of the year. In my district, as in many others, the great tradition that his majesty's mail must go through is lived up to by these men who are serving the country. But their contracts show an actual loss at the end of the season. When the proper opportunity comes this should be one of the first reforms put into effect.


Clarence Gillis: In referring to the air mail service the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Isnor) apparently spoke for the maritimes. I have no doubt that much improvement has been made in the service rendered the city of Halifax, but to many other parts of the province the extension of that service is of very little benefit. It takes more time to send a letter by air mail to the part of the country from which I come than it does to send it by ordinary post. The air mail must be unloaded at Moncton and transferred to a plane for Halifax, whence it goes by train to its destination. When in April the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) was piloting a bill through the house having to do with Trans-Canada Air Lines, he said that no place in Canada would benefit more largely by an extension of air mail and passenger service than Sydney, Nova Scotia, and that it was the intention to have the present condition remedied this summer. I notice that this appropriation has been increased by $651,006. If it is necessary to provide a subsidy in order to extend this air service, has the Post Office Department budgeted for such a subsidy, and is it included in this vote?


William Pate Mulock: This is a matter I should like to discuss with my colleague, the Minister of Munitions and Supply, before making any statement. There are funds in this vote for extensions of air service at necessary points, but I can make no definite statement at the moment as to dates or locations, because that depends upon many circumstances. I should not be surprised if there were some changes in the maritime area, but it is a matter of policy I must discuss with my colleague.


Clarence Gillis: If a subsidy had been budgeted for, the minister would likely know about it. There has been continuous correspondence over the last year between the people of the island of Cape Breton and the government with reference to the establishment of both

mail and passenger service. I think the government recognizes the necessity for such a service. We are living in an obsolete and out-of-the-way part of the country down there, lacking up-to-date transportation facilities, and the Minister of Munitions encouraged me greatly, when piloting his bill through, by definitely stating that conditions would be remedied this summer. Better facilities are anxiously awaited, but the fact that the Postmaster General and his department are not aware of any subsidy being appropriated for the purpose would rather lead me to believe that nothing is being done.


William Pate Mulock: I am afraid the hon.
member misunderstood me. There is money available under certain circumstances for extensions of service, but the question of equipment and personnel must be considered. I can assure the hon. member that the matter is receiving consideration. I do not want him to think for a moment that it has been lost sight of, but without consulting my colleague I cannot give him a definite statement as to when the matter will be decided.


Clarence Gillis: I understood that equipment and personnel had already been taken care of, and that all that was necessary before an extension of service could be made, was a subsidy.


Heber Harold Hatfield: I should like to support the plea made by the hon. member for Parry Sound on behalf of the rural mail carriers. Early consideration should be given to this matter. Rural mail carriers should not have to wait until after the war for the necessary increase in their remuneration. What they receive now is a disgrace. I know one rural mail carrier who travels twenty-eight miles every day and receives a dollar a day. Surely some consideration should be given to the men who take these contracts to keep off relief. Their expenses now are much higher than they were. I hope the minister will give this matter his early consideration.


William Pate Mulock: Under the law as it now
exists, the minister is required to call for tenders and the contract is awarded to the lowest tenderer, unless for some special reason a man is unable or unfit to perform the service. The difficulty is that some of the tenders are so low, as the hon. member for Parry Sound and other members have mentioned, that in some instances hardships are bound to be caused. After all, in some cases the man has put in a low tender in order to get the contract from somebody else. It is a difficult matter to deal with. One suggestion that has been made is that all the carriers should

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keep their present routes at an increased rate; on the other hand, others have tendered at a lower figure than even that increased rate, and it would be unfair to them. If you established a fixed rate you would also have this difficulty, that probably twenty or thirty people in certain districts would apply for the rural mail contract over the same route and the Postmaster General would have a great deal of trouble in deciding between them. So that the difficulty is not so easily overcome as some might' think.
If hon. members have any suggestions as to how conditions could be improved, I shall appreciate it if they write to us. I can assure them that their representations will receive the most careful consideration. Not only the minister but the officials of the department as well would be delighted if somebody could find some way of improving present conditions.


Ernest Edward Perley: If the minister could tell us the percentage of renewals at the old rate we would have some idea of what the rural carriers themselves think about it.


William Pate Mulock: I shall be glad to get that information for the hon. member. I can say offhand that a very large number wish to renew their contracts at the existing rates.


Grote Stirling: And resent it greatly when they are undercut.


William Pate Mulock: Some of them, yes.


Manley Justin Edwards: Is it not true that specific performance is required of these rural mail
carriers?


William Pate Mulock: Sureties.


Manley Justin Edwards: Has there been any default and recourse to the sureties under their bonds?


William Pate Mulock: Yes; in some instances the sureties have been required to carry on the route where the carrier left the district or failed to carry out the contract.


Manley Justin Edwards: Do the sureties carry on the route or make good the default by the payment of money?


William Pate Mulock: They are responsible for the performance. They are not simply recommending such and such a man as a good fellow, but are responsible for the service being carried on.


Manley Justin Edwards: What is the penalty in the bond? Is it a monetary sum? Surely it would not be specific performance?


William Pate Mulock: If the service falls down and we have to have it carried on at a higher rate, the surety is responsible for the difference in the rate.


Manley Justin Edwards: Has recovery been made on such bonds? Has any suit been taken to recover?


William Pate Mulock: Not so far as I know.
None has been brought to my attention.


Manley Justin Edwards: To my mind we have under discussion this afternoon one of our most important services. For my part, speaking on behalf of my constituency, and, I am sure, for the people of the west, I appreciate the fact that we have as Postmaster General a young man with progressive and aggressive ideas. Nothing delighted me more than to observe the increased appropriation for advertising. I believe that the full value of the service which this department is capable of rendering to the people of Canada is not yet generally appreciated. We are now adopting modern merchandising methods in selling to the people a really worth-while service, one which has an important contribution to make to the amenities of modern life. I was interested to note that the Minister of Labour, in his announcement a few days ago, indicated that the services of the Post Office Department were to be made use of in the introduction of the unemployment insurance scheme. That is very commendable enterprise on the part of a former postmaster general who is no doubt aware of the services which that department can render to him in his new capacity of Minister of Labour.
All of us, and in particular the people of the west, appreciate what the air mail service means in monetary saving. In my firm the savings amount to hundreds of dollars in the course of a year. My professional practice is such that these savings are multiplied, and I know the same is true of the grain trade, who now use the air service in preference to the telephone and the telegraph.
Another respect in which the service is worth while is its tendency to eliminate the great blank space which exists between eastern and western Canada, and to provide another means of bringing us closer together, making for better understanding, and enabling us quickly to solve our difficulties.
I appreciate the work of the Post Office Department in this time of war. It is not easy to estimate what it means to be able to get a letter within four or five days from our dear ones and those who are close to us in England, and to be able to reply to them as rapidly. In that respect may I pay tribute to the director of postal services at Calgary. I believe that at the beginning of the war he came to Ottawa and carried out a very difficult task so well that he was sent over-
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seas and is now doing a very worth-while job over there. I have nothing but praise for the department at this time.
I see that by reducing rates on money orders and notes, a branch which was losing money for years is now showing a profit. Were we to apply to all our other services, in the same degree, modern business and merchandising methods, it would be all to the good.


William Pate Mulock: I am sure that the officials of the department appreciate the remarks of the hon. member for Calgary West.
In regard to unemployment insurance, we are taking over the sale of unemployment insurance stamps under the act and thus cooperating with the Department of Labour. The department is paying us $171,000 for looking after that work for the first year; thereafter the rate, subject to revision on the basis of whether it is fair or not, will be about -57 of the cost for handling the sales of stamps and the distribution throughout Canada. This provides an outlet through 12,557 post offices throughout the country. I understand that the rate charged by the post office in Great Britain for this service is -5 per cent. Bearing in mind the fact that our area is so much greater in extent, I believe our rate is reasonable.
May I express my thanks to postmasters throughout the country for the work they have done, mostly without remuneration, to help in Canada's war effort. They have assisted freely in the war savings stamps campaign as part of their help in the service of the country. I have here a letter from the financial superintendent, Mr. H. E. Atwater, advising me as to the distribution of war savings stamps through the post offices, and it is to be noted that the sales more than doubled after the start of the war savings campaign. The letter concludes :	[DOT]
This makes a total for the post office sales of $8,757,000.
I am sure that hon. members appreciate the work that the postmasters are doing in connection with the war effort. From time to time we receive letters from postmasters authorizing deductions of salary, contributing percentages of salary, giving up certain amounts voluntarily for the duration of the war, for a year, or for a certain number of months; or applying a certain portion to the purchase of war savings certificates. We know of many such cases, and we are satisfied that postmasters will take their full part in the effort to assist the Department of Finance in the new loan. About $237,000 worth of certificates have been purchased by postmasters so far this year, and in addition there have 
been outright gifts of over a thousand dollars. A few months ago, when members of the postmasters' association came to Ottawa, they made a presentation to the Prime Minister on behalf of their association of $6,000 in stamps. We should appreciate what they are doing in this regard. Many have only small offices, and these contributions mean a good deal to them. It shows that their hearts are in the right place, and that they are doing a job for this country to the very best .of their ability.


Mr. GRANT:: Is it not a fact that prior to 1930 the rates received by rural mail carriers compared favourably with the post office estimates of the rates at which mail could be carried? In 1931, 1932 and 1933 the department established a practice of throwing open to tender as many routes as possible, and when times were so hard during those years people tendered for these routes at less than half of what the mail could be carried for. That accounts for the low rates which have been established for the carrying of rural mail. To-day we are asked by these mail carriers to renew their contracts, and that keeps the rates at the low standard fixed between 1930 and 1935. I was surprised to hear the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) say that he lived in an obsolete part of the country. A short time ago the hon. gentleman said that Nova Scotia had gone behind fifty years. The same thought ran through my mind on the night of March 26, 1940, when news came over the radio that that province had elected a Cooperative Commonwealth Federation member.


Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: This total vote amounts to $11,514,882. It will be found on page 28 of the estimates, the details being given on page 159. They can, however, hardly be correctly called details. For instance, the mail service by air amounts to $4,829,107, which is an increase of over a quarter of a million dollars compared with the amount last year; and the mail service by ordinary land conveyance, including rural mail delivery, amounts to $6,504,815, or an increase of $242,635, almost a quarter of a million. How is that item of $4,829,107 for mail service by air expended? Where does the money go and who gets it?


William Pate Mulock: In mail service by air there is an increase of $368,456, made up as follows: Trans-Canada service, $316,966; other than Trans-Canada service, $51,490. Does the hon. member wish to have the details of that?


George Black: Not particularly. In what parts of Canada are the services given; who has the contracts, and how much is paid?

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William Pate Mulock: There are a number round White Horse.


George Black: Yes, a surprising number.


William Pate Mulock: Does the hon. member want the services other than Trans-Canada?


George Black: If the minister could give them without too much trouble.


William Pate Mulock: I could put the whole statement on Hansard, but it is a very long one. There are thirty-three in the group.


Thomas Vien: With the unanimous consent of the committee the statement will go on Hansard.


William Pate Mulock: The statement is as
follows:
(a) Services other than Trans-Canada-
1.	Atlin-Telegraph Creek	
2.	Charlottetown-Magdalen Islands	
3.	Edmonton-Fort St. John (consolidated with
Edmonton-White Horse)	
4.	Edmonton-White Horse	
5.	Fort Nelson-Fort Liard	
6.	Fort St. John-Fort Nelson	
7.	lie a la Crosse-La Loche	
8.	Kenora-Red Lake	
9.	Leamington-Pelee Island	
12.	Mackenzie River Area	
13.	North Shore of St. Lawrence..
14.	Peace River-Fort Vermilion...
15.	Prince Albert-Goldfields..
16.	Prince Albert-Ile a la Crosse..
17.	Prince George-Takla Landing.
18.	Prince George-Ware	
19.	Regina-North Battleford...
20.	Sioux Lookout-Narrow Lake..
21.	Sioux Lookout-Pickle Crow...
22.	Sioux Lookout-Red Lake....
23.	The Pas-Cumberland House...
24.	The Pas-Herb Lake	
27.	Vancouver-Zeballos	
28.	White Horse-Dawson	
29.	Winnipeg-Central Manitoba....
30.	Winnipeg-Fargo	
31.	Winnipeg-Favourable Lake	
32.	Winnipeg-Gods Lake	
33.	Winnipeg-Red Lake	
33a. Allowance for increase in rates.,
(b) Trans-Canada Services (planned for 1941) (all at 40 cents per mile)
34.	Transcontinental (3 round trips daily):
Montreal-Toronto-Vancouver-4 single trips

Vancouver-Toronto-2 single trips	f $+848,SOb
Toronto-North Bay-Montreal-2 single trips...J
35.	Montreal-Moncton-2 rd. trips dy	 "9,952
36.	Toronto-Windsor-4 rd. trips dy	
37.	Toronto-Montreal-4 rd.	trips dy	 ^94,784
38.	Toronto-New York-4 rd. trips dy	
39.	Vancouver-Seattle-2 rd. trips dy	
40.	Lethbridge-Edmonton-2 rd. trips dy	
41.	Toronto-Buffalo-Nil	
Total, Trans-Canada	 $3,927,692
Grand total	 $4,829,107
of February 13, 1941			
		Increase	
Estimates	Estimates	or1941-42	1940-41	decrease	$ 3,000	$ 3,000	5,000	6,000	-$	1,0004,000	4,00082,826	56,000	+	26,8261,000	1,000	2,000	2,000	2,000	2,000	4,000	4,000	5,000	4,000	+	1,000218,893	106,672	+	112,221121,910	121,910	57,000	57,000	40,000	45,000	-	5,0005,500	5,500	10,000	10,000	3,000	3,000	4,500	5,500	-	1,0003,000	3,000	121,000	121,000	3,000	3,000	7,000	6,000	+	1,0006,000	5,000	+	1,0002,000	2,000	, 4,000	4,000	49,671	32,000	+	17,671, 38,690	19,345	+	19,345. 2,000	2,000	. 7,000	9,000	-	2,000. 7,000	5,000	+	2,000. 53,655	53,655	. 5,000	4,000	+	1,000. 18,000	17,000	+	1,000. 8,770	6,000	+	2,770121,343	-	121,343$901,415	$849,925	+$ 51,490	$2,348,556	$2,521,825	(2 rd.trips)249,952	187,464	(1 rd.trip)327,760	128,232	(2 rd.trips) ) 6 months )394,784	148,044	(1 rd.trip)467,200	174,720	(2 rd. trips) (6 months (71,248	158.405	(3 rd. trips)168,192	252,288	(2 rd.trips)39,748	(2 rd.trips) 16 months)$3,927,692	$3,610,726	+ $316,966$4,829,107	$4,460,651	+ $368,456
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Analysis of Increase in Estimates 1941-42 for Services other than T.C.A.-Concluded
21.	Sioux Lookout-Pickle Crow-$7,000.
Increase of $1,000 due to added poundage.
22.	Sioux Lookout-Red Lake-$6,000.
Increase of $1,000 due to added poundage.
23.	The Pas-Cumberland House-$2,000.
No change.
24.	The Pas-Herb Lake-$4,000.
No change.
25. Vancouver-Fort St. John-$49,671.	.	[DOT]
It is being assumed that this .route will operate all year from I ancouver on a semiweekly frequency instead of operating weekly from Kamloops in the winter, lhis would result in an increase of $17,671 over 1940-41 estimates.
Vancouver-Victoria-$38,690.	,	.	. m ^ .	[DOT]
' On the assumption that the proposed third transcontinental trip of T.C.A. may arrive Vancouver in the early morning and that a plane connection may be necessary to ensure morning letter carrier delivery in Victoria, provision has been made for an additional round trip. This would result in an increase in cost of $19,345 over 1940-41 estimates. Actually, from a mail viewpoint, only an extra single trip may be necessary.
27.	Vancouver-Zeballos-$2,000.
No change.
28. White IIorse-Dawson-$7,000.	,
Decrease of $2,000 from 1940-41 estimates due to reduced poundage.
29 Winnipeg-Central Manitoba-$7,000.
Increase of $2,000 due to added poundage.
30.	Winnipeg-Fargo

No change.
31.	Winnipeg-Favourable Lake-$5,000.
Increase of $1,000 due to added poundage.
32.	Winnipeg-Gods Lake Area-$18,000.
An increase of $1,000 due to added poundage.
33.	Winnipeg-Red Lake-$8,770.
An increase of $2,770 due to added poundage.
33a. AHowaime^for^Increase^g ^ probabIe increased rates on services other than Trans-Canada for 1941-42. An accurate estimate of probable added costs cannot possibly be made at
tllAstl$121,343 was set aside for 1940-41, this represents a decrease of the full amount, $121,343. '
Estimated cost of air mail service fiscal year 194041 (Less Trans-Canada Air Lines Services)
Cost to Dec. 31,1940	Estimated cost Dec. 31, 1940, to Mar. 31,1941	Estimated total expenditure
$ 988 00	$ 1,680 00	$ 2,668 00Charlottetown-Magdalen Islands 	
169 60 	
664 92	5,000 00	5,169 60 664 92
55,030 80	13,572 80	68,603 60
718 00	328 00	1,046 00
61 74	47 31	109 05
383 12	127 71	510 83
2,134 32	900 00	3,034 32
960 15	2,610 00	3,570 15
42,538 68	14,179 56	56,718 24Maritimes-	
20,843 96	7,299 60	28,143 56
27,995 52	10,533 60	38,529 12
22,472 82	8,223 60	30,696 42
87,270 00	29,610 00	116,880 00
10,908 08	25,773 50	36,681 58
3.396 14	1,132 05	4,528 19Prince Albert-Goldfields-Stony Rapids	
5,902 75 	
1.377 25	1,967 58 459 09	7,870 33 1,836 34
1,585 10	803 65	2,388 75
2,712 56	529 10	3,241 66Regina-North Rattleford 	*	
79,026 20	30,646 00	109,672 20
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Estimated cost of air mail service fiscal year 1940-41-Concluded (Less Trans-Canada Air Lines Services)
Sioux Lookout-Narrow Lake Sioux Lookout-Pickle Crow Sioux Lookout-Red Lake ... The Pas-Cumberland House
The Pas-Herb Lake	
\ ancouver-Dawson Creek ..
Vancouver-Viotoria	
Vaneouver-Zeballos	
White Horse-Dawson	
Winnipeg-Central Manitoba Winnipeg-Favourable Lake Winnipeg-Gtods Lake Area .
Winnipeg-Fargo	
Winnipeg-Red Lake	
Cost to Dec. 31, 1940
$	634 83
4,515 83 3,986 84 745 26 1,873 69 33,774 80 13,806 50 403 08 4,905 40 3,182 82 3,709 35 13,321 98 38,637 55 5,271 38

Estimated cost Dec. 31, 1940, to Mar. 31,1941

Estimated
total
expenditure


Mr. SHAW:: During the past hour several hon. members have referred to contracts held by the majority of rural mail carriers. I believe the minister intimated that he would welcome suggestions for the correction of the existing evil, and I am going to take advantage of this opportunity to point out what I regard as a vicious practice that has grown up in connection with the rural mail carrier service. In certain distribution centres off rail, certain enterprising gentlemen, engaged in remunerative occupations, have made it a point to bid for the job of mail carrier, and owing to the fact that these men do not depend to any appreciable degree upon the revenue derived from that particular work have been able to outbid practically all others. In certain instances those who would depend upon the revenue which they would derive from the work are shut out, with the result that in one centre in particular which I have in mind one gentleman holds three contracts and engages in the practice of subletting. That is something which, in my opinion, should not be allowed. I would say, therefore, that if a man indicates his willingness to bid for the position of carrier, he ought to indicate or be compelled to indicate that he is prepared to do the work himself.
I find that in one case which I can mention -and I am willing to mention it later to the minister this gentleman has kept for himself, out of two or three contracts, approximately $50 per contract, which is clear income for him, but he has put men on the road under a subcontract system. It is almost impossible for them to carry on. Someone may say that they do not have to take the work; but if rMr. Mulock.]
to-morrow I offered a job paying $100 a year, there would certainly be someone who would find himself by force of circumstances in a position where he would be glad to accept the work. Consequently we have men carrying on this work, some of them getting $20 or $30 a month, and having ten and fifteen mile routes. I deplore the fact.
I would ask the minister to what extent his department renews contracts without advertising. Perhaps it does not do so at all. At any rate, is it the practice, and to what extent is it carried on?
There is one other matter I wish to discuss. I believe the minister stated when we were discussing administration that contracts under $200 a year are let by him-or may be let. He did not say they are let by himself, but they may be. This thought went through my mind: How many contracts that would possibly provide for the bidder $300 a year are forced down by the minister into the class of $200 a year or less, and are sublet to someone else by the successful holder? There is always someone to take such a contract if it is handed to him. I am just asking for information. I am not saying it is done;
I base my statement on the statement made by the minister.


William Pate Mulock: A very large number of
contracts are renewed without being put up for further tender, if the service performed has been satisfactory. That has always been the principle followed by the department. The minister has power to authorize renewal.
I do not quite know what the hon. member objects to about this other matter; the $200 is not used to drive any one down in price.

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Frederick Davis Shaw: I am not objecting; I am
merely seeking information. The unfortunate part of there being no definite policy with regard to renewing contracts is this. A certain man comes along and underbids another by five dollars or thereabouts.
I have another definite case in this regard, a friend of mine, right after the 1935 election. The minister may draw any conclusion he likes. I doubt whether that same man has had an opportunity since 1935 to bid again, and perhaps underbid the other man. There should be a definite practice in this regard; it should not be left to the discretion of the minister or some departmental official to say, "Here we will call for tenders, and there we will give it back to the present contractor." There may be others just as much entitled and just as well qualified to carry on the work.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The splendid advance
in the air mail branch of the post office is something of which we must all feel proud. It carries mail so rapidly to remote areas and brings the different parts of the country into close contact.
Has the minister before him the weight or number of letters carried by the air mail service in Canada, and has it produced a profit or a deficit, and how much?


William Pate Mulock: I have quite a long statement here. There has been a substantial increase in air mail. We have some very good officials in the department who keep in close touch with the situation and keep me in touch. I hesitate almost to rely too much upon the graphs that they prepare.
For a while we were getting an increase of about four per cent a month, about fifty per cent a year, a tremendous increase. Based on that increase, they worked out this plan, and they hope that in the near future the revenue from air mail will meet the cost that we pay to Trans-Canada Air Lines to help them operate. I understand the figures were given to the railway committee the other day. The indications are so good that I hesitate to give them. I would rather wait a few months.


An hon. MEMBER:: Why?


William Pate Mulock: Because so many things
may occur. I have the example of the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) who said he is not going to make any more prophecies, so I hesitate to do so in this regard. I can say, however, that the indications are quite encouraging. For example, for February we estimated that we would have a gross weight of air mail carried of 77,952 pounds. We exceeded that and received 82,487
pounds. In March we estimated 89,745 pounds and actually received 91,453 pounds. In April we estimated 90,330 pounds and actually received 99,071 pounds. For April, the estimated difference between revenue and cost was $31,754, but with the increase in the poundage that deficit was reduced to $18,488.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The deficit is rapidly
going down?


William Pate Mulock: If the present increases
are maintained, within a short time, within months at the present rate of increase, the air mail should be carrying itself. It would be a good thing if we could get it on a paying basis. That is one of the reasons why we want an increased vote for advertising. We have found the results very satisfactory; we have had satisfactory increases in the volume of air mail, and when one is dealing in millions of dollars, it seems false economy not to use a fair amount of advertising.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Do parcels going overseas to the soldiers in England take a lower rate than the regular rate?


William Pate Mulock: Yes. The matter of postage on parcels for overseas is not entirely in the hands of the Postmaster General of Canada; it has to be arranged also with Great Britain. Any changes in rates must be agreed upon between the two governments. From time to time there have been suggestions of further reductions of the parcel rate, but that burden would fall to some extent on Great Britain, and we do not consider it proper to make representations for further reductions at the present time when Britain has such a great burden to carry. Yes, the postage on parcels has been reduced.


Clarence Gillis: While the minister is looking up that information I should like to say that in the few remarks I made in connection with the post office estimates I endeavoured to deal as specifically as possible with the item under discussion, and I want to protest against the statements of the hon. member for Kings (Mr. Grant). I refuse to allow him to put words into my mouth. I said that I considered our end of the country obsolete so far as the services under discussion were concerned. When the hon. member made the uncalled-for statement with reference to the intelligence of the people who sent me here I think he gave a first class demonstration of his own ignorance. If I accomplish nothing more during the time I am here, at least I have given him an opportunity of getting on his feet and saying something. Perhaps the reason there are Cooperative Commonwealth Federation members in this house-

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Thomas Vien: I would ask the hon. member not to indulge in a personal quarrel with any other hon. gentleman, but to speak to the item under discussion. If any statement made by the hon. member for Kings was offensive and exception had been taken to it, I would have called him to order and asked that it be withdrawn. But now that the incident is closed I think we should discuss the item before the committee.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Well, Mr. Chairman, you did not draw the attention of the hon. member for Kings to the fact that he was indulging in personalities.


Thomas Vincent Grant: I would ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw the word "ignorance."


Thomas Vien: Any statement of an hon. member that is offensive to another hon. member is out of order, and if exception is taken to it I am sure it will be withdrawn. I again direct the attention of hon. gentlemen to the fact that if exception had been taken to any statement made by the hon. member I would have called him to order.


Clarence Gillis: I had no opportunity to take exception to it, Mr. Chairman; and I suggest that if statements of that kind, which have nothing to do with the business of this house, were checked we would save at least seventy-five per cent of the time that is now wasted. Any time I speak I confine my remarks to the item under discussion. I am not particularly concerned about myself, but I refuse to allow this hon. member to insult the people who sent me here. They are just as intelligent as any other people in this country. The hon. member's remarks were entirely uncalled for and had no reference to the item under discussion.


Thomas Vincent Grant: The hon. gentleman has not yet withdrawn the word "ignorance."


Thomas Vien: I think we can call the incident closed.


Thomas Vincent Grant: I insist that he withdraw the word.


William Pate Mulock: A moment ago the hon. member for Davenport asked whether the rates on soldiers' parcels had been reduced. The answer is that they have. The civilian rates are 24 cents for the first pound and 18 cents for each additional pound up to ten pounds; $2.50 for a parcel from ten pounds to fifteen pounds and S3 for a parcel from fifteen pounds to twenty pounds. In connection with parcels to soldiers the limit is eleven pounds and the rate is 12 cents per pound, for members of the British, Canadian, 
dominion or colonial troops serving in the United Kingdom.
Mr. PURDY; I wonder if some consideration might be given to allowing a leeway of a few ounces in connection with parcels going overseas. It is very annoying to reach the post office with a parcel being sent to a dear one overseas, only to find that you must go all the way back home and have your wife take out a can here or something else there because the parcel happened to be three or four ounces overweight. Could there not be some leeway in that regard?


William Pate Mulock: It is not a question only of leeway on the part of our officials; it is a question of leeway on the ships, and leeway in connection with delivery in England. This question of soldiers' parcels is a matter of agreement between the postal authorities of this country and those of Britain, and we could not make any change here without the approval of the British authorities. I think the hon. member will realize that no substantial increase could be permitted. The volume of parcels is very great, and there is a limit to the amount of space available for this purpose on ships going to Britain.


Mr. PURDY:: But a few ounces one way or the other would not increase the size of the parcel. There should be some elasticity in the regulations to meet a situation of this kind. When you have to open a parcel and do it up all over again you sometimes miss a mail.
Mr. MULOCK. I do not think the officials would be so very difficult to deal with, but at the same time if we were to say we would permit five pound parcels to weigh up to five pounds and a half, that would soon be raised to five pounds and three-quarters, and still it would be suggested that they should be carried at the five pound rate. I am sure the officials are not unreasonable about this matter, but on the other hand you cannot say, "Yes, go ahead and make it, five and a half pounds."


Gordon Timlin Purdy: I quite appreciate that, but I do dislike having to take a parcel back because it is an ounce or two overweight.


George Black: I notice in the
statement the minister was kind enough to give me that the Edmonton-White Horse service and the Vancouver-Fort St. John service both are listed as semi-weekly, and the figures in regard to their cost refer to semiweekly service. Is it not true that at the present time both these services are tri-weekly; and, if that is so, will that entail additional cost?

Questions


William Pate Mulock: The hon. member is correct; these are now tri-weekly services. Certain developments taking place in that part of the country have made this desirable, as I think the hon. member will agree.


George Black: I am not objecting.


William Pate Mulock: The hon. member agrees that this change was advisable?


George Black: Yes.


William Pate Mulock: The moneys are available to take care of the extra services.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
246. Audit of revenue, money order, postal note and savings bank business; issue of postage stamps and postal notes, including amounts required to pay allowances to office appliance operators grade 2, in accordance with regulations approved by order in council, $1,408,700.
Thomas Vien: Shall the item carry?


Grote Stirling: No, Mr. Chairman. There
is a good deal of discussion to take place on this item, I think we should call it six o'clock.
Progress reported.



LAKE SUPERIOR REGIMENT


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: Perhaps the house will permit me to mention that the Lake Superior regiment, which has been in Ottawa for the last five or six weeks, is leaving the city next week and moving further east; and arrangements have been made for the regiment to march past the peace tower at 2.30 on Monday afternoon. I want to invite hon. members to be present at that time if they care to do so. It will give them an opportunity to see an excellent unit of the Canadian active army; and further it gives us an opportunity to pay a compliment to a unit which has maintained a very high standard while it has been in Ottawa.
On motion of Mr. Cirerar the house adjourned at 6 p.m.
Monday, May 26, 1941.