1930-03-05

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their honours that this house has appointed the Honourable the Speaker and Messrs. Bertrand, Bettez, Bourassa, Bowman, Carmichael, Chevrier, Cotnam, Deseoteaux, Dionne, Edwards (Ottawa), Foster, Fraser, Garland (Carleton), Geary, Girouard, Glen, Guthrie, Hepburn, Hodgins, Johnston (Long Lake), Jones, Kennedy, Lacroix, Langlois, Lavigueur, Lennox, McIntosh, Marcil, Neill, O'Connor, Pou-liot, Prevost, Quinn, Rinfret, Senn, Short, Smoke, Spencer, St.-Pere, Stirling, Thompson, White (London), Young (Toronto Northeast), a commitee to assist His Honour the Speaker in the direction of the library of parliament, so far as the interests of the House of Commons are concerned, and to act on behalf of the House of Commons as members of a joint committee of both houses of parliament on the library.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their honours that this house will unite with them in the formation of a joint committee of both houses on the subject of the printing of parliament, and that the members of the select standing committee on printing, namely. Messrs. Baldwin, Bettez, Bock, Boulanger, Bradette, Charters, Edwards (Waterloo South), Embury, Esling, Evans, Foster, Fraser, Girouard, Gott, Gray, Guerin, Hocken, Howden, Hubbs, La-combe, Lacroix, Lang, Lapierre, Lucas, Luchko-vich, McKenzie, MacLean (Prince), Macdonald
Indian Act

(Glengarry), Marcil, Maloney, Matthews, May-bee, Morrissy, Peck, Perras, Prevost, Price, Quinn, Rennie, Rinfret, Roberge, Rowe, Ryer-son, St.-Pere, Spankie, Spealcman, Spencer, Spot-ton, Steedsman. Sylvestre, Taylor, Verville, White (Mount Royal), Wilson (Vaudreuil-Sou-langes), will act as members on the part of this house, on the said joint committee on the printing of parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: That the Honourable the Speaker and Messrs. Bancroft, Black (Yukon), Boivin, Bourassa, Carmichael, Cayley, Chevrier, Clark, Edwards (Ottawa), Howard, Howden, Kay, Kellner, Lang, MacLaren, Ryckman, Senn, Spankie, Spence, be appointed to assist his Honour the Speaker in the direction of the restaurant, so far as the interests of the commons are concerned, and to act as members of a joint committee of both houses on the restaurant and that a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their honours therewith.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Winnipeg North Centre) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 20, to provide in the province of Ontario for the dissolution and the annulment of marriage.
Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: Explain,


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: This bill, Mr. Speaker, is the same as that introduced last [DOT]session. It provides for power to establish a divorce court in the province of Ontario.
Motion agreed to on division, and bill read the first time on division.



VEHICULAR TRAFFIC ON DOMINION PROPERTY

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. C. ELLIOTT (Minister of Public Works) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 21, to provide for the regulation of vehicular traffic on Dominion property.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, this is a bill to
authorize the governor in council to make regulations controlling the operation of vehicles upon Dominion property over which there exists no other public right of way.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Superintendent General of Indian Affairs) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 22 to amend the Indian Act.
JMr. Mackenzie King.)
He said:	I may say that the more important amendments consist of extending the school age of Indian children by one year and providing that the Superintendent General may retain a child in a residential school under certain circumstances until he or she is eighteen years of age; provision is made to prohibit Indians of the western provinces from selling their cattle without the consent of the Indian agent; provision is also made euabling the superintendent general to operate farms on Indian reserves for the instruction of Indian farmers and to provide pure seed; section 105 according to a decision of the courts has been given an interpretation that was not generally understood and this section has been amended to make it clear what the intention is; the provision in the act providing for the seizure of boats, vessels, canoes, etc., used in the liquor traffic has been extended to apply to the seizure of motor-cars, and other vehicles of transportation; owing to the tendency of Indians to squander their time and money in pool-rooms, provision has been made for bringing such Indians before a magistrate who can, if the circumstances warrant it, prohibit their entrance into pool-rooms for the period of one year.
Other amendments in the act are adjustments made in the various sections to meet the necessities of the principal amendments.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.]

Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	Is it the intention of the government to introduce to this house a bill confirming the treaty for securing the preservation of the halibut fishery of the north pacific ocean, which was made between His Majesty the King and the United States of America and which was signed at Washington on March 2, 1924, and ratified by His Majesty on October 21, 1924, and authorizing the government of Canada to perform the obligations therein imposed upon the Dominion of Canada?
2.	If not, why not?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker,
may I draw the attention of my hon. friend to what appears to be the effect of the second question he asks, in each of the questions he has put before the house: I refer to the "if not, why not"? And in that connection may I read the rule of the house, standing order No. 44:
Questions may be placed on the order paper seeking information from the ministers of the

Questions
crown relating to public affairs; and from other members l elating to any bill, motion, or other public matter connected with the business of the house, in which such members may be concerned; but in putting any such question or in replying to the same no argument or opinion is to be offered, nor any facts stated, except so far as may be necessary to explain the same. And in answering any such question the matter to which the same refers shall not be debated.
I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, that if the government were to attempt to answer the question "If not, why not", we might be drawn into the realm of argument with my hon. friend. There is no desire on the part of the administration not to give my hon. friend the fullest information possible. I can at the proper time supply him with the reasons that have governed in these matters, I shall be glad to give them to him at any time if he so desires, but in answering the question I think the nde of the house just quoted should be observed and that the same rule should be observed with respect to answers to my honourable friend's questions as will be followed with all hon. members of the house. Later on it will be seen there are other questions similarly worded, I am going to ask in each case to be allowed to take exception to answering the question "If not, why not". With that exception, I have here the answers to all of my hon. friends questions.


Mr. CAHAN:: Does Your Honour rule
that the question "If not, why not", necessarily provokes discussion?


Mr. SPEAKER:: The rule is very clear.
In the putting of questions, or replying to same, no argument or opinion is to be offered. The purpose of a question which is placed on the order paper is to secure information as to plain matters of fact, and no discussion may arise therefrom. I would rule that the words "If not, why not" are out of order. Questions 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9 are answered, I understand, provided the words "If not, why not" are deleted from the questions.


UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has the government any plans for providing useful employment for the great body of the unemployed?
2.	If so, what relief will be afforded?
3.	Will the government accept the offer of the province of Ontario to provide one-third of the cost of certain forms of relief in conjunction with the federal and municipal authority? If not, why not?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Exactly the
same rule applies, Mr. Speaker, as in the case of the ones just answered. The present question is: Has the government any plans for providing useful employment for the great body of the unemployed? If so, what relief will be afforded? Will the government accept the offer of the province of Ontario to provide one-third of the cost of certain forms of relief ini conjunction with the federal and municipal authorities? If not, why not?
The rule that has just been cited, Mr. Speaker, makes it clear that a question should not be asked in that way. I might draw the attention of the hon. member to what is further implied in the rule. Beauchesne's Rules and Forms, section 342:
A question which publishes the names of persons or statements not strictly necessary to render the question intelligible will be refused a place on the notice paper.
There are statements in the question that has been asked that are not at all necessary to render it intelligible, and I submit, Mr. Speaker, they should not have a place on the order paper. I would also direct my hon. friend's attention to section 349:
The purpose of a question is to obtain information and not to supply it to the house. A question may not contain statements of facts unless they be necessary to make the question intelligible and can be authenticated; nor should a question contain arguments, inferences, imputations, epithets or controversial or ironical expressions.
I do not know how many of those last mentioned characteristics are to be found in my hon. friend's question, but certainly there are enough of them to justify the government in refusing to make reply to it in its present form.


Mr. BENNETT:: Of the question generally?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Hewitt Bostock: If the hon. gentleman will let the question drop I will re-draft it with him.
Question dropped.


MERCHANDISING OF AGRICULTURAL COMMODITIES
Mr. CHURCH:: What steps, if any, will be taken by the government to promote the effective merchandising of agricultural commodities in interprovincial, inter-imperial or in foreign commerce, so that the great basic industry of agriculture will be placed on a basis of economic equality with that of other industries?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Here again I
desire to draw the attention of the house to the wording of the question:
What steps, if any, will be taken by the government to promote the effective merchandising of agricultural commodities in interprovincial, inter-imperial or in foreign commerce-
Questions

Up to that point no exception can be taken, but the following words are quite unnecessary; they are argumentative and carry an implication for which there is no ground.

so that the great basic industry of agriculture will be placed on a basis of economic equality with that of other industries?
The question being worded as it is, there is no answer to be made to it.


CANADIAN MARKETING BOARD
Thomas Langton Church: What steps, if any, will be taken by the government to establish "a Canadian Marketing Board," suited to Canada's special circumstances, after the fashion of the Empire Marketing Board in England, as an aid to more effective economic marketing and as a promotion to empire trade?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Here again the same rule applies as in the case of question No. 11.
What steps, if any, will be taken by the government to establish "a Canadian Marketing Board"-
No exception can be taken to the question up to that point, and the answer would be that the government will have its intention made known in due course. But the following words are entirely unnecessary:
-suited to Canada's special circumstances, after the fashion of the Empire Marketing Board in England, as an aid to more effective economic marketing and as a promotion to empire trade?


Mr. MANION:: Does not my hon. friend
think that the answer which he gave would be just as effective for the rest of the question?


Thomas Langton Church: If the question is redrafted then the member can ask supplementary questions, as in the British house, because that is provided for by our rules. I will redraft the question.


Hewitt Bostock: Question No. 13 is not
in order because it is argumentative, beginning with the words:
suited to Canada's special circumstances, after the fashion of the Empire Marketing Board in England, as an aid to more effective economic marketing and as a promotion to empire trade?
If the hon. gentleman is willing to accept an answer on the first two lines, the right hon. the Prime Minister is ready to answer,
I suppose at a later sitting, but if he wishes to redraft the question I will redraft it with him, according to the rules.
Question stands.


RETURNED SOLDIERS-APPOINTMENTS
Thomas Langton Church: How many returned soldiers who served over-fcas in the Great war have been appointed by EMr. Mackenzie King.]
the government of Canada, since January the 1st, 1922; (a) to the Senate; (b) to the Sup-preme or High Court bench of the various provinces ?


Mr. RINFRET:: (a) and (b). No information.


PACIFIC HALIBUT FISHERIES
Charles Hazlitt Cahan: . 1- Is it the intention of the government to introduce to this_ house a bill confirming the treaty for securing the preservation of the halibut fisheries of the North Pacific ocean, which was made between His Majesty the King and the United States of America, and which was signed at Washington on March 2, 1924, and ratified by His Majesty on October 21,
1924,	and authorizing the government of Canada to perform the obligations therein imposed upon the Dominion of Canada?
2.	If not, why not?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No. *
2.	No answer.


LAKE OF THE WOODS LEVELS
Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	Is it the intention of the government to introduce to this house a bill confirming the treaty between His Majesty, in respect of the Dominion of Canada, for regulating the level of the lake of the Woods, and for certain other purposes therein mentioned, which was signed at Washington on February 24, 1925, and ratified by His Majesty the King on July 17,
1925,	and authorizing the government of Canada to .perform the obligations therein imposed on the Dominion of Canada?
2.	If not, why not?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No.
2.	No answer.


INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY TREATY
Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	Has the treaty between His Majesty, in respect of the Dominion of Canada and the United States, to define more accurately at certain points and to complete the international boundary between the United States and Canada, which was signed at Washington on February 24, 1925, and ratified by His Majesty the King on July 17, 1925, been confirmed by any act of parliament of the United Kingdom?
2.	Is it the intention of the government to introduce to this house a bill confirming said treaty and authorizing the government of Canada to perform the obligations therein imposed upon the Dominion of Canada?
3.	If not, why not?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No.
2.	It is not the intention of the government to introduce to this house a bill confirming

said treaty and authorizing the government of Canada to perform the obligations therein imposed upon the Dominion of Canada. It is, however, proposed to introduce a bill in a matter arising incidentally out of the treaty, in order to provide that some two and a half acres of water in the Lake of the Woods, acquired from the United States under the terms of the treaty, shall become a part of the province of Manitoba.
3.	No answer.


GENEVA SLAVERY CONVENTION
Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	Has the Geneva Slavery Convention, which was approved by parliament during the session of 1928, been ratified by His Majesty the King?
2.	If so, is it the intention of the government to introduce a bill to this house confirming the said slavery convention and authorizing the government to perform the obligations therein imposed upon the Dominion of Canada?
3.	If not, why not?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	Yes. The Geneva Slavery Convention,
September 25,	1926, was ratified by His
Majesty the King, and the instrument of ratification was deposited August 6, 1928.
2.	No.
3.	No anwser.
GENEVA OrlUM CONVENTION AND PROTOCOL


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: .
1.	Has the Geneva Opium Convention and Protocol, which was signed on February 19, 1925, been ratified by His Majesty the King?
2.	If so ratified, is it the intention of the government to introduce a bill to this house confirming the said convention and protocol, and authorizing the government to perform the obligations therein imposed upon the Dominion of Canada?
3.	If not, why not?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	Yes. The opium convention, signed at Geneva on behalf of Canada, October 1, 1925. and the protocol, signed at Geneva on behalf of Canada on the 21st October, 1925, were
[DOT]ratified by His Majesty the King, and the instruments of ratification were deposited on June 25, 192S.
2.	No.
3.	No anwser.


GENEVA INTERNATIONAL SANITARY CONVENTION
Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	Has the Geneva International Sanitary
Convention, which was approved by parliament during the session of 1928, been ratified by His Majesty the King?	,
2.	If so ratified, is it the intention of the government to introduce a bill to this house
Questions
confirming the said International Sanitary Convention, and authorizing the government to perform the obligations therein imposed upon the Dominion of Canada?
3.	If not, why not?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	Yes. The International Sanitary Convention, signed at Paris on behalf of Canada, on June 21, 1926, was ratified by His Majesty the King and the instrument of ratification was deposited at Paris on September 30, 1928.
2.	No.
3.	No answer.


GENEVA PROTOCOL-PROHIBITION OF POISONOUS GASES
Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	Has the Geneva protocol for the prohibition of the use in war of certain gases, which was signed on June 17, 1925, been ratified by His Majesty the King?
2.	If so, is it the intention of the government to introduce to this house a bill to confirm said protocol and authorize the government to perform the obligations therein imposed upon the Dominion of Ganada?
3.	If not, why not?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No answer.


QUEBEC TERMINAL RAILWAY FACILITIES
Mr. PARENT:: 1.	Have negotiations taken place between the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Pacific Railway with regard to terminal railway facilities in the city of Quebec?
2.	If so, when?
3.	Have such negotiations reached some conclusion?
4.	If so, what conclusion?
5.	Is the city of Quebec aware of any agreement between" the Canadian Pacific Railway and Canadian National Railways, if any agreement exists, as to improving or changing the present terminals at the city of Quebec?


Mr. DUNNING:: 1.	If this has reference to the formation of a terminal railway for joint switching of industries and facilities within the area, the answer is " no," in which case further questions are of no effect. If it has reference to passenger terminal facilities at the Palais station, which is already joint under an agreement dated January 1, 1915, between His Majesty the King, as represented by the Minister of Railways and Canals, the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Commissioners of the National Transcontinental Railway, the answer is "yes".
2.	During recent years.
3.	Yes.
Questions

4.	Changes and additions to Palais station facilities are being provided to accommodate Canadian National trains to and from Montreal, via Joliette and Lake St. John.
5.	As the agreement has been in existence a veiy long time, it is presumed that the city of Quebec would be aware of it. The changes and additions referred to will come within the terms of the agreement referred to in answer No. 1.


WHEAT POOL-1928 CROP
Mr. LUCHKOVICH:: 1.	How much of the 1928 crop was handled by the wheat pool?
2.	How much of the same crop was handled by the non-pool companies?
3.	How much of the 1928 wheat pool crop is still unsold?
4.	How much of the non-pool wheat crop is still unsold?


Mr. MALCOLM:: The Board of Grain
Commissioners has no information as to who own the grain when it is being officially inspected or weighed by its staff.


GRADING AND STORAGE OF MEATS
Mr. KENNEDY:: 1.	What success has attended the grading of beef in Canada?
. 2. How many stores are handling graded beef in each of the cities, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal?
3.	What percentage of beef suitable for grading is being graded?
4.	hat is being done to encourage producers m supplying a regular supply of quality beef suitable for grading?
5.	How do stocks of lamb in storage on January 1, 1930, compare with stocks on hand January 1. 1929?
6.	How do stocks of fresh killed Canadian lamb in storage on January 1, 1930, compare with stock on hand on January 1, 1929?
/. What steps are the Canadian government taking to secure a share of the British bacon an^ thereby help to establish greater stability m prices, more confidence among producers, and an expansion in the swine industry?


Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: 1.	While official grading of beef has been in effect in Canada for only five months and must, therefore, be regarded as more or less in the experimental stage, it has met with a very encouraging response and its success so far has been most gratifying.
2.	As the number of stores handling graded beef is increasing almost daily in order to meet the steadily growing demand for graded beef, it is impossible to state the exact number at present handling this product. In the cities mentioned, many of the foremost dealers, including some of the larger chain stores, are now featuring officially graded beef and some

of them are handling it exclusively. Incidentally it must be stated that about ten days ago a report was received by the Department of Agriculture to the effect that over seventy stores were handling graded beef in the city of Winnipeg including Hudson Bay and the T. Eaton Companies.
3.	Some establishments are branding all beef which is eligible; others are branding upon order only. The percentage branded varies according to the fluctuations between supply and demand.
4.	The development of production programs to increase the supply of young unfinished cattle is under way in several of the provinces. The activities of provincial committees which are in process of organization in this connection, are being coordinated by federal officers with a view to furthering the campaign already under way to assure an adequate and constant supply of beef suitable for grading. A production campaign for finished cattle is also being arranged for the exhibition circuits and western feeder shows, as well as through other channels, and proper feeding and finishing methods are being encouraged through the direct field work of federal officials and by special and carlot classes for such cattle which have been arranged for at various fairs.
5.	Lamb in storage January 1, 1930, 8,261,694 pounds; lamb in storage Janauary 1, 1929, 5,967,946 pounds.
6.	Lamb in storage not frozen January 1, 1930, 299,644 pounds; lamb in storage not frozen January 1, 1929, 222,218 pounds.
7.	The hog grading policy has achieved its object to place on the British market a quality of product equal to the best imported product offered and it has narrowed the spread of price to a very favourable margin. The improvement in the quality of our hogs has however stimulated domestic consumption to the point where 95 per cent or over is sold at home. Since 1921, our consumption has increased by 6 pounds per capita. Also a rapidly expanding tourist trade is absorbing a very large percentage of the annual surplus. Our total production in 1929 was fairly well in line with the five year average. Unfortunately just at present home consumption seems to have gone ahead of production and no bacon is being exported from Canada this calendar year.


CHICOUTIMI HARBOUR
Mr. THOMPSON:: What amount has been voted since 1925 for the Chicoutimi harbour, and the approaches thereto?

Questions


Mr. CARDIN:: Department of Marine and Fisheries (Marine Branch)
Loans to Chicoutimi harbour commissioners.-
1927	$ 500,000
1929	$2,000,000

Department of Public Works
1925-26 to 1929-30 (to Feb. 2S)-$348,460.85.


DEPORTATIONS
Mr. SPENCER:: 1.	How many people were deported from Canada during 1929?
2.	What were the reasons for their deporta- _ tions ?
3.	How were these people divided amongst the different receiving countries?


Mr. DUNNING:: 1. Maximum and minimum amount of advances under Finance Act during 1929, by
months:		
Month	Maximum	MinimumJanuary	. ..$ 76,500,000	$50,000,000February... .	. .. 71,500,000	43,500,000March	. .. 83.500,000	53,500,000April	. .. 84.000,000	51,500,000May	. .. 75,550,000	41,500,000June	. .. 88,700.000	53,550,000July	. .. 75.200.000	50,950,000August	. .. 77.400.000	55.200,000September.. .	. .. 79.400,000	48,400,000October	. .. 90.150,000	54,150,000November.. .	. .. 112,900,000	62,150.000December.. .	. .. 82.700,000	42,700.000
2. Interest charged-$2,403,665.84.


PULPWOOD EXPORTS
Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: 1.	3,267.
2.	Medical causes, 558; Public charges, 1,783; Criminality, 574; Other civil causes, 99; Accompanying deported persons, 253.
3.	African South, 3; Albanian, 1; Austrian, 11; Belgian, 5; British: English, 1,313; Irish, 300; Scotch, 516; Welsh, 207; Chinese, 70; Czecho-Slovak, 46; Dutch, 18; East Indian, 2; Esthonian, 1; Finnish, 63; French, 7; German, 47; Greek, 4; Hungarian, 28; Italian, 14; Jamaican, 2: Japanese, 3; Jugo-Slav, 25; Latvian, 1; Lithuanian, 13; Luxemburg, 1; Maltese, 3; Mexican, 1; Newfoundland, 8; New Zealand, 2; Polish, 92; Roumanian, 22; Russian, 5; Scandinavian: Danish, 63; Icelandic, 1; Norwegian, 51; Swedish, 34; Spanish, 5; Swiss 18; Syrian, 1; West Indian, 8; U.S.A. Citizens, 252.
Perhaps I might be permitted to make a slight explanation with regard to this answer. The return which has been tabled for the year in question shows 1,300 deports, and in fairness I think it should be stated that during that year some 3,600 trainees came to Canada as well as a large number of harvesters. About
1,000	of these men were returned as deports who, in effect, asked to be returned to England.



ADVANCES UNDER FINANCE ACT

Mr. SPENCER:: 1.	To what extent did the banks take advantage of the Finance Act during 1929?
2.	How much was paid by the banks to the Dominion government for advances under the Finance Act, during 1929?


Mr. LAPIERRE:: 1.	What quantity and value of pulpwood was exported to the United States during the years 1926, 1927, 1928 and 1929?
2.	What quantity and value of pulpwood was exported to the United States from the province of Quebec during the same period of time?
3.	What quantity and value of pulpwood was exported to the United States from the province of Ontario during the same period of time?


Mr. MALCOLM:: 1.	Canada's exports of pulpwood to the United States, calendar years 1926, 1927, 1928 and 1929 were:
Years	Cords	$1926	
1,391.738	14,067,0301927	
1,541.769	15,702,7051928	
1,532.266	15,269,6601929	
1,294,995	13,314,738
2. Canada's exports of pulpwood to the United States via 'he province of Quebec, calendar years 1926, 1927, 1928 and 1929, were:
Years	Cords	$1926	
701,770	7,234,1961927	
679.646	7,082,6231928	
532,089	5,246,0031929	
512,872	5,208,317
3. Canada's exports of pulpwood to the United States via the province of Ontario, calendar years 1926, 1927, 1928 and 1929, were:
Years	Cords	$1926	
403,651	3,902.0351927	
487,440	4,662,1911928	
633,710	6,080,1731929	
459,860	4,542,842
Questions



MAIL SERVICE, PELEE ISLAND

Mr. GOTT:: 1.	How many days, if any, during the months of December, 1929, January and February, 1930, has the regular mail service from the mainland to Pelee island or from Pelee island to the mainland been interruped?
2.	What were the cause or causes of the breaks in service?
3.	Could not precautionary measures have been taken to have avoided many or all of the
delays?
4.	Will the department take immediate steps to assure the residents regular service for the present month ?


Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	9, 13 and 10 days respectively.
2.	Rain 6, snow 17, fog 2, wind 2, ground conditions due to weather 5.
3.	The interruptions were due, without exception, to weather conditions which are beyond the control of the Post Office Department or the contractors.
4.	Yes, in so far as weather conditions permit.



PEI.EE ISLAND STEAMSHIP COMPANY SUBSIDY

Mr. GOTT:: 1.	What is the amount of the subsidy paid by the government to the Pelee Island Steamship Company?
2.	What requirements are the company supposed to fulfil to obtain the full amount of
such subsidy?
3.	W hat steps are taken by the government to ascertain whether or not the requirements to earn the subsidy have been complied with?
4.	Have there been complaints from the residents of the island relative to poor service or the incivility of the president of the company?
5.	How is the subsidy paid, in advance, yearly, or monthly?


Mr. MALCOLM:: 1.	SI 1,009 per annum.
2.	The latest contract, which will expire on March 31, 1930, and which covers the season of navigation in 1929-30, requires the company to perform six round trips a week during the months of April, May, June and September and October, and five round trips a week during July, August and November and until the close of navigation, weather permitting, between Pelee island and the mainland, calling on each trip at Leamington and Kingsville, and carrying the mails from the mainland to the island, and thence by land to the post offices at Pelee island, Pelee island south and Scudder.
The contract specifies the freight and passenger rates to be charged, and stipulates that the vessel to be employed shall be the Pelee.

3.	Subsidy claims are submitted to the department three times a year by the company, giving in detail the date of each trip, these dates being certified as correct by the collectors of national revenue at Pelee island, Kingsville and Leamington, and by the master of the vessel. The Post Office Department states that the contractors have carried out the mail clauses of the contract satisfactorily.
4.	Yes. A complaint was made by the manager of the Hotel Pelee as to the nondelivery of a parcel of meat in November, and also as to a parcel of meat having been lost on one occasion during the summer. The manager of the hotel has complained of the incivility of the manager of the steamship company.
5.	Three times a year; as soon as possible after June 30th, September 30th, and at the close of navigation, covering in each case the service performed up to the said dates.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. THOMPSON:: 1. What vessels have been built for the government, or any department thereof, including the Canadian National Railways, since 1921?
2.	Where were these vessels built, and at what price?
3. What vessels were purchased by the government as above during the same period?
4.	From whom were they purchased, and at what price?


CHRISTIE STREET HOSPITAL DOCTORS
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many doctors are on the pay-roll, either for part or full time employment, for attendance on the 400 patients in Christie street hospital?
2.	Are there any doctors receiving remuneration in the way of retaining fees?
3.	Is the minister aware of the sworn report of evidence of Doctor A. J. Kennedy at the coroner's inquest in Toronto into the death of a patient, William Johnston, at Christie street hospital, in which he stated that, on every other night, he is the only physician on duty at the hospital from 5.30 p.m. in the afternoon to 8.30 a.m. next morning?
4.	If so, what will be done to secure adequate assistance?


POST OFFICE STATISTICS
Mr. MAYBEE:: 1. How many post offices were built by the government in Canada, during the years 1927, 1928 and 1929, where were they built and in w'hat year, respectively?

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Speakman
2.	What were the respective revenues of these *offices during each of the years 1927, 1928 and 1929?
3.	What was the cost of building and site in each instance?
4.	Was a site purchased for a post office in, Campbellford, Ontario? If so, what is the [DOT]description and what price was paid for same?
5.	What were the respective revenues from all sources of the post office at Campbellford, Ontario, during each of the years 1927, 1928 and 1929?
6.	How many rural mail routes operate out *of Cambellford post office?
7.	What was the total amount of mail handled in the said poet office during the years 1927, 1928 and 1929, respectively?


IMMIGRATION EXPENDITURES SINCE 1922
Mr. KELLNER:: 1.	What is the total amount of money spent by the Dominion government on immigration since 1922?
2.	How much on each of the following undertakings: (a) 3,000 British family scheme; (b) government continental families scheme; (c) placement and aftercare of British farm workers recruited by the Department of Immigration and Colonization, including trainers from British training farms; (d) investigations of the bona fides of nominations made by residents of Canada in favour of residents of Great Britain and aftercare of British farm workers brought forward by the result of such nominations; (e) aftercare of British farm workers brought forward by the Colonization Department of the railway companies, and by the Ontario government, and other provincial governments; (f) investigation concerned, with applications to the department for the admission of alien immigrants; (g) investigation of the settlement conditions of foreign farm workers brought forward by the railway companies; (h) Overseas Settlement Committee; (i) the New Brunswick Settlement Scheme; (j) the agreement with the railways; (k) the assisted passage schemes; (1) the medical inspection of immigrants; (m) the Empire Settlement Act, and how much loaned?
3.	How many settlers has the Canadian *Colonization Association brought to Canada, and how much has the government spent on this ,scheme ?



UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. PARENT:: For a copy of (a) an agreement No. 14332A, dated 24th of October, 1929, between the Montreal Cotton Company and the Minister of Railways and Canals, (b) an agreement or sub-lease dated 26th of October, 1929, between the Montreal Cotton Company and the Beauharnois Light, Heat and Power Company regarding a lease No. 14332 as renewed by an agreement No. 14332A, (c) an agreement with the Montreal Cotton Company of the first part, the
Beauharnois Light, Heat and Power Company of the second part, and His Majesty the King, represented therein by the Minister of Railways and Canals of Canada, of the third part, giving consent to and approving of a sub-lease from the cotton company to the power company of lease No. 14332 as renewed by agreement No. 14332A, (d) an agreement with the Montreal Cotton Company of the first part, the Beauharnois Light, Heat and Power Company of the second part, and His Majesty the King, represented therein by the Minister of Railways and Canals of Canada, of the third part, giving consent to and approving of the terms of a sub-lease from the cotton company to the power company in respect to the lease No. 13978, as renewed, (e) an agreement with the Montreal Cotton Com-panv of the first part, the Beauharnois Light, Heat and Power Company of the second part, and His Majesty the King, represented therein by the Minister of Railways and Canals of ada, of the third part, giving consent to and approving of the terms of a sub-lease from the cotton company to the power company of lease No. 11925 as renewed by lease No. 21516.



AIR MAIL CONTRACTS

Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: For a copy of all contracts for air mail service entered into or in force during the year 1929.



LUMBER SCALERS-NEW BRUNSWICK

Mr. FOSTER:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams or other documents, received by the Minister of Labour, or the Minister of Immigration and Colonization, in connection with the request of the Canadian International Paper Company for the admission of one or more lumber scalers from the United States into the province of New Brunswick.



AGRICULTURAL CREDITS


Mr. ALFRED SPEAKMAN (Red Deer) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, consideration should be given to the setting up of a system of intermediate credits for agriculture.
He said: In discussing this question of agricultural credits an international authority used this method of illustration:
"The use of credit in agriculture may be compared to the use of water. If the water is brought into the field at the right time in the proper way and in proper quantities it will prove invaluable, but if the field is flooded or if the water is applied at the wrong time it will be destructive."
I shall attempt to discuss this subject from that point of view, Mr. Speaker, realizing that
300	COMMONS
Agricultural Credits-Mr. Speakman
credit overdone or used to too great an extent or in an improper manner, is more likely to defeat the object sought than to bring it into effect. All of those-and I imagine that includes most members of this house-who are familiar with agriculture and who have considered the subject of credits as applied to agriculture, recognize that there are three distinct phases, or methods of using credits, three distinct fields of agricultural credits. The first is that covered by the term "long term credits". Up to a short time ago that field was covered mainly, and indeed wholly, by the different mortgage companies who loaned money for various purposes on the security of the land. The distinction which might be drawn between the three forms of credit, which generally have been recognized as long term, short term, and intermediate, depends on three distinct factors. They are the term of years for which the money is loaned, the security which is asked and the purpose to which that money is devoted. In the case of long term credits the only security asked or accepted is the security of the land mortgaged, the reason obviously being that land alone, of all agricultural property, is not subject to change or fluctuation or to serious depreciation. It is there at all times, and always' possesses a certain value which renders it a proper form of security. The purpose for which the money is used under the long term form is, as a general rule, either for the purchase of land, for the renewing of existing indebtedness on more favourable terms, or for the erection of permanent improvements which, being of major value and permanent in character, should be paid for over the long term of years during which they retain their full measure of usefulness.
I might point out before I enter upon my subject proper that it was only after years of discussion and consideration that we took the final step in this country to place the Canadian farmer in a situation comparable to that occupied by farmers in most other countries by providing him with a form of credit suitable to his needs in that respect. It is too early at this stage, Mr. Speaker, to say with any degree of certainty or definiteness just how successful that attempt has been. We are still in the experimental stages. We do not know just how far the system of long term farm loans, our federal farm loans which we have inaugurated will prove satisfactory to the farmers w'ho will use the credit thus supplied, and that being the case it would be premature for me to pass any definite opinion upon what has occurred. I simply say this, that in the case of this act as in the case of most other acts, and in the case of this scheme 
as in the case of most other schemes, certain weaknesses have become apparent-weaknesses to which I will refer very briefly a little later on- and for the remedying of which I propose to offer certain suggestions.
Since Canada became a nation, we have had a system of short term loans, familiarly termed bank loans, and up until but recently, and in the field which I propose to discuss even at the present time, it is the only form of loan which is acceptable to the farmer or to any other person. It has been the experience not only of farmers but of bankers and business men that the loans provided by the banks under the system which they must follow, under the conditions which must be imposed, are neither suitable for the purpose of agriculture nor do they meet the need which obviously exists. The reason for that is two or three fold. In the first place, the time for which the money may profitably be loaned by any bank is too short for it to be of any great value to the agriculturalists although undoubtedly it is suitable to many forms of commercial activity. I have no criticism at all to offer of our banking system; it was designed and has proven suitable to ordinary merchandising and ordinary commercial life, but the very conditions under which the money is loaned, the very terms upon which it is advanced are obviously suited only to that kind of business where the turnover takes place very frequently and at short intervals. In agriculture the obverse is the case. Even with the most successful farmer, the farmer who is so happily situated in regard to climate, in regard to soil, in regard to his own abilities, as to secure a crop once every year, cannot by any stretch of the imagination have more than an annual turnover. Twelve months must elapse even under the most happy conditions between one crop and another. It is obvious therefore, that a loan which can profitably be advanced only for a term of three months, with possible renewal for six months, cannot under any conceivable stretch of imagination meet the case.
Another point which renders this form of credit of very little value to the farmer is this. Owing to the fact that the return received, on the most happily situated farms, is so moderate, the interest rates charged by the average bank are too high to enable- that money to be used with any degree of advantage. We have provided for the farmer who wishes to borrow money for long terms up to 25 or 35 years to be used for certain specific purposes. In our banking system we have ready access, provided the security can be offered, to credit for certain short terms

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Speakman
and temporary purposes but, as I have stated, that is of very little use to the farmer, although he can and does make use of bank credit in some instances. For example, he may borrow money from the bank for the purchase of seed, hoping that within six months or so his crop will have matured and he will be able to repay the loan. He may borrow money for the purpose of buying feed for the same length of time. He may borrow for the purpose of paying his taxes in order to keep himself in good standing in the municipality and to avoid the penalities which are attached to delay in the payment of taxes. He may borrow for various temporary purposes to meet temporary necessities, but there is one class of farmer of great and of increasing importance for whom no adequate provision has been made, and that is the farmer who is anxious to go into mixed farming. the man who is anxious to build up and develop a dairy herd or to purchase young stock for the purpose of maturing and fattening that stock and placing it upon the market at the most favourable time and under the best possible conditions. To him a bank loan is of little value, and indeed the experience in the past of stock owners, those men who build up dairy herds or who buy young stock for the purpose of marketing at a latex date, has not been happy.
I may say-using the personal note moment-arily_that I am one of those men who from time to time have handled stock. Personally I have not been faced with the neccess-ity of borrowing money for that purpose, but I have seen farmers in my neighbourhood and I know of farmers throughout the whole province and the whole of Canada who have been so unfortunate as to incur that indebtedness. With what result? This was the result that followed almost invariably and which resulted in the partial bankruptcy and sometimes in the total ruin of those men. They borrowed a sum of money, adequate as they thought for their needs, with the assurance of the bank that the}7 would be able to renew the note from time to time as necessity demanded. But with the fluctuations in the market, very frequently the banks called their loans at a time when the stock was not matured, or not fit for the market, or when the market itself was not in a receptive condition, and they were faced with one or the other of these two alternatives. They were forced to put the unfinished stock on the market and take what they could, with a certain loss of money, or they were forced to borrow from some other quarter in order to meet the deficiency. The inevitable result was this: many of those men,
who in good faith entered into the business of stock raising or the preparing of stock for the market, found themselves forced to dispose of that stock prematurely and approached bankruptcy through the losses which they incurred.
Those of us who have been familiar with this situation, and who believe as I believe that stock farming is and should be a permanent and important part of our agricultural system throughout Canada, believe that we should have a system of credit which would be particularly suited to that particular industry, a system of credit under which money could be borrowed in reasonable quantities and under strict business principles, but which would be devoted to the purpose of purchasing young stock and which would be available for that purpose until that stock could be matured to advantage. If that were done, we believe that the business of raising stock, the mixed farming which we believe will be more and more the basis of successful agriculture, will again come to the front as a flourishing, important and profitable branch of this industry.
Now, what suggestions have we to offer and in what way has this situation been met in other countries? I am mentioning other countries for one reason above all others. In Canada we have been watching developments in that great country to the south and there we have found not only that the importance of agriculture has been fully realized, but that governments, both federal and state, municipalities, banks and all other financial organizations, have placed at the command of the agriculturist almost unlimited credit to be used for his particular industry. The United States has set aside vast sums of money to enable the farmers, if possible, to get on their feet and place themselves in a more fortunate position than that which they at present occupy. Indeed, to me it has been an occasion for pride that to a very great degree the Canadian farmer has been doing for himself, and asking for no governmental assistance in it, things which the United States farmer has looked to his government to provide for. The Canadian farmer, at his own expense and on his own initiative, has inaugurated marketing systems, which, in spite of temporary setbacks, in spite of adverse marketing conditions, will, I believe, place him upon a much firmer basis in the future than that which he has occupied in the past. In many lines of endeavour our farmers are showing themselves full of initiative, independence, and ready to do for themselves what they can do instead of asking for governmental assistance.


Mr. McQUARRIE:: What would be the
security?


Alfred Speakman: I was just coming to
that. The next point is the security to be offered, for as I indicated at the opening of my remarks, the differences between these various forms of credit can be classified under three heads: (1) the term of years for which the money shall be loaned, the long term loan being limited to a maximum period of some thirty-five years, and the short term loan being limited to from three to six months; and for intermediate credits we suggest a term of from six months up to three or possibly five years; (2) the class of security which is demanded. In the case of long term credits, land is the only security accepted. In the case of bank credit the personal note and the personal obligation of the borrower, backed and seconded by the endorsement of some other dependable person, who would in turn assume his obligation, is the security usually asked for. In the case of intermediate credits, the security always demanded is a chattel mortgage on the stock itself, supplemented by other chattels of a marketable character.
Naturally and obviously in lending this money, strict business principles must be applied, and for the sake of the farmer of the country, of the institution which lends the money, no more money should be loaned than may be adequately secured by an approved form of security. I am not one of those who believe that the lavish expenditure of money, the wide-open power to borrow in any amount regardless of security and of the use to which the money is to be put, is a good thing for anybody. But I do think that credit wisely applied and judiciously extended is the very lifeblood of all business though in this case, as in the case of all other countries where the system is applied, the security is the chattel mortgage upon the stock purchased, supplemented by chattel mortgages upon other marketable security of a class which will not deteriorate too rapidly.
The purpose for which it would be applied would be, as I have indicated, the purchase
of young or dairy stock with the object in view either of building up a dairy herd or of maturing and fattening that stock, and placing it upon the market at the best possible time and in the best possible condition.
I have indicated, then, the terms, the life of the loan, the security, and the general purpose which I have in view. I am asking that this subject shall be sympathetically considered. I have intimated that in my opinion the best place for its proper consideration would be the banking and commerce committee, and I suggest that when the subject is being considered by that committee it consider also the question of long term credits, the functioning of the present act, and the various complaints which have arisen from time to time, together with the possibility of some improvement in the regulations. I have said that I am ready and willing to accept an amendment to that effect to bring about the reference of the question to a committee; and assuring the house that I have not brought the matter before it without realizing what it means, without realizing the dangers and the difficulties which an injudicious use of credit might bring in its train, I would urge that this proposal be considered sympathetically in the hope that some system of credit suited to agriculture, and suited particularly to the stockmen and mixed farmers of this country, may be provided and put into force.


Hewitt Bostock: If there are no other
speakers-


Alfred Speakman: I was going to suggest
an amendment that the matter be referred to the banking and commerce committee, as there is no specific mention in the resolution of the method to be employed in giving the consideration which I ask.
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): I think both the substance and form of the presentation by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) of this subject of intermediate credits merited far more attention than they received. I confess that I had some difficulty in following him because of the difficulty in hearing all that he said.
I gathered, however, that the hon. member traversed the ground in connection with what is sometimes called the blank spot in agricultural credit; that is, that area between the short-term credit, well provided under the terms of the Bank Act, and as extended by the chartered banks of the country, and, at the other extreme, the long-term land mortgage system. In between, as my hon. friend states, is the problem of supplying the kind of credit on chattle security adapted for various forms

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Dunning
of agriculture, and particularly for the industry of stock raising. The subject has been studied at various times on behalf of Canada, the last report being, I believe, that of Doctor Tory, which was made available in 1924 and out of which grew the long term farm loan system which is now in operation. The Canadian farm loan system has been in operation now for several months. Loans have already been placed, I believe, in six of the provinces, and under the terms of the act approximately $1,608,000 has been loaned.
My hon. friend made reference to the developments which have taken place in this connection in the United States. It will be remembered that, following many years of study by numerous commissions the United States finally adopted what might be called a comprehensive agricultural credit system, changing in some respects their method of dealing with short-term credits for agriculture as well as with intermediate and long-term credits. Experiments in this connection have been going on for several years. Although perhaps it is a little too early yet to state just what the results are in the United States, so far as the successful operation and attainment of the objective is concerned, I have some information here regarding the operation of intermediate credit institutions in that country which might be of use to the house at this juncture.
Under the system which was evolved as the result of years of inquiry in the United States, there was included the establishment of twelve intermediate credit banks. They were established in the same cities as the federal land banks, and were set up as separate corporations, although having the same officers and boards of directors. Each of these intermediate credit institutions had a capital stock of $5,000,000, entirely subscribed by the government of the United States. These institutions also have power to issue debentures up to ten times the amount of the paid-up capital and surplus, the security to be cash, or paper representing loans. In the case of these United States intermediate credit organizations the method of doing business is not directly with the farmer. The loans are made from the twelve national intermediate credit institutions through the medium of state or national banks, trust companies, agricultural credit corporations, incorporated live stock loan companies, savings institutions, cooperative banks, cooperative marketing associations of agricultural producers, or other federal intermediate credit banks. That sounds rather complex, but my point is that the federal intermediate credit system of the United States

operates by discounting the paper of other institutions, and not by discounting the paper of the farmer direct.
I have here a diagram from Doctor Tory's report indicating the relationship of the various unit parts of the United States scheme, and in that connection I note that a form of joint stock land bank was established as part of the intermediate credit system of the United States, having a direct relationship with the federal farm loan board. Eighty joint stock banks were provided for, with a capital of $250,000 each. I understand that this part of the United States' development in connection with agricultural credit has not been so successful in operation as the other portions of the system; or perhaps it would be fairer to say that weaknesses have developed in connection with joint stock land banks to a greater degree than they have become apparent in the other branches of the system. For instance, three of the joint stock land banks have been placed in receivership with outstanding liabilities of more than $70,000,000, namely, the Kansas City Joint Stock Land Bank, Kansas city, Missouri, the Bankers Joint Stock Land Bank, Milwaukee, and the Ohio Joint Stock Land Bank, Cincinnati. The fact that these institutions are in difficulties, however, does not necessarily mean that the whole structure is inadequate or inefficient, and it does not mean that the twelve intermediate credit institutions set up under the same authority are in any difficulty. But it is a little too early for us to say that the institutions evolved by the United States as a result of their exhaustive inquiry are yet past the experimental stage. I think my hon. friend from Red Deer who has given some study to this matter will agree with that statement.
It is important that we should profit by the mistakes of our neighbours, whatever they may be. I am more concerned with profiting by their mistakes than I am with following their example along many lines. In this regard allow me to quote from a report of a study of recent economic changes made in the United States in 1929. This study was undertaken by a national committee, not any voluntary organization, with Herbert Hoover, now President of the United States, as the head of it. The remarks made in connection with the credit situation as it affects agriculture are, I think, particularly useful to us in this discussion. Mr. Hoover's committee says, and, remember, this is in 1929, quite recently:

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Dunning
Many rural districts were inadequately served with credit in the years shortly before the World war when the rural credit agitation first came to an acute stage. With the passing of the Federal Reserve act, the Federal Farm Loan act, and the Intermediate Credit act, the way had been paved for the removal of many difficulties; though obviously no mere passing of legislation can create a desired volume of credit, or suitable administration of its extension. In practice, "sympathetic" officials in some of these institutions have extended lines of credit involving losses of some magnitude. These losses, however, will doubtless be absorbed in our structure without serious harm, distributing scarcely avoidable losses to shoulders more able to bear them than those on which they originally fell.
The main point, however, is how the extension of credits is to be suitably adjusted to the productive organization of our agriculture in the future.
That is significant as indicating that the United States do not yet regard their system as working perfectly or even satisfactorily. The report goes on:
Perhaps we may grant in a broad way that the several pieces of rural credit legislation already enacted have tended to put the credit resources of the country at the disposal of the agricultural industry upon terms as advantageous as those available to other industries and adapted to the peculiar requirements of the business and those who are engaged in it. We must not. however, put the cart before the horse. Adequate credit facilities will not create a satisfactory credit situation for agriculture, but on the other hand a satisfactory basis of credit must precede the extension of loans.
That is the precise difficulty that the United States scheme is meeting in operation, the finding, not of the money to loan, but of a satisfactory basis upon which to extend the loan; which is of course a fundamental problem in connection with any credit scheme. The report continues:
Even those farmers who in the years just following the war laid stress on the ability of liberal credit extension to serve them in the deflation period have seen the limitations of such relief measures and have coined the phrase "You can't borrow yourself out of debt."
That is all I wish to quote from the report, merely by way of giving information to the house how sympathetically official United States' opinion regards the experiment which has been conducted in that country and the operation of it.
So far as Canada is concerned, we could of course approach the matter from the point of view of enlarging the powers of the chartered banks to take security. We could, if we wished-personally I doubt the wisdom of it -permit our chartered banks to take classes of security which would enable them to enter more largely into what is known as the inter-2419-20
mediate credit field. In fairness to our banks,
I think it should be said that although not having the power to take the kind of security which is taken in other countries, our chartered banks do in fact materially facilitate the very operation of live stock production and so forth which we are discussing, and which require in reality a longer term of credit than the ordinary three month note. But I doubt very much, Mr. Speaker, if this house would care to go on record as considering it desirable that there should be a widening of the security-taking powers of our chartered banks along this line. The criticism of course is that to the extent to which banks do tie up their funds in long term loans their position is thereby rendered less liquid. And I have the old fashioned idea of a bank; its first essential should be that it is a safe place in which to put money; its lending features are secondary from my point of view. Unless it is a safe place to deposit money it will not last long as a bank. And to the extent that we permit the tying up of deposits for longer periods than prevail under the present law, to that extent we are opening the possibility at least that depositors might not be able to get their money out on demand.


Mr. STEVENS:: To what extent has the
rural credit measure passed some few sessions ago relieved this situation which the hon. minister is now discussing?


Mr. DUNNING:: There was no rural
credit legislation. That is a distinction which I want to draw. Rural credits, as I understand it, is a broad term which includes lending of all kinds to rural people; that is to say, it includes any system of short term lending, of intermediate lending, and of long term farm mortgages. This parliament, I would say to the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) dealt with just one phase of that in its legislation enacted, I think, in 1926. The one phase which this parliament dealt with then was the long term mortgage credit phase of the problem.
The phase we are now discussing is different entirely. In the United States, as I have indicated, separate organizations are created for intermediate credit. True, they are under the same general management, but I submit it would be impossible for such institutions to be under the same general management as long term credit organizations if the intermediate credit organization were itself dealing directly with the farmer. The fact that the twelve intermediate banks in the United States are dealing, not with the farmer, but with the other organizations, which in their turn dis-



Agricultural Credits-Mr. Dunning
count the farmers' paper, renders it possible and practicable for the administration of the intermediate credit bank to be the same as that of the federal farm loan institution. There is a wide field for speculation as the manner of dealing with the actual administration of such an organization. In the United States the organization does not itself deal directly with the farmer but with organizations of various kinds which in turn deal with the farmer. The intermediate credit organization discounts the paper of various types of organization which, under the law, deal with the farmer with respect to the credit, and are in the first instance responsible for so doing. Therein lies a very important aspect of the problem. The United States farmer who borrows under the facilities provided by the intermediate credit portion of their farm loan legislation deals with some local organization which is wholly responsible for dealing with him. The intermediate credit institution has nothing whatever to do with the individual farmer. It does not lend money to the individual farmer, does not realize upon the security, if it is necessary to realize upon it; but the local organization is able to send that farmer's paper in as an individual piece of paper to combine *with all the rest of its loans of a similar class to the intermedia te credit institution and borrow itself on the amount of paper discounted en bloc. In Canada it would be rather difficult to organize in such a way, as I think my hon. friend from Red Deer will appreciate. Our conditions are different, and there are many parts of the United States from which complaints on that ground are coming at the present time, the ground being that the situation of the people in many parts of the United States does not permit of the establishment of the initial institution through which the discounting is conducted that it is difficult for them to create the kind of institution which can qualify as a discounting organization under the terms of the intermediate credit legislation by borrowing from one of the twelve intermediate credit banks.
I did not intend to go on at length in connection with this matter, Mr. Speaker,-


Sir GEORGE PERLEY:: Referring to the question asked by my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens), I do not think the minister has answered it as I had expected he would. He asked whether the present system of long term rural credits did not go to relieve the situation. He referred to stock raising. As I understand it, if a man has a farm free of mortgage he can go to this board
IMr. Dunning.]
and get a long term rural credit for the purpose of raising stock, or doing anything else in connection with the improvement of the farm.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am sorry I did not get the point my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre was making. The legislation which passed this house in 1026, being now in operation, contributes in some measure toward the supplying of funds to farmers for stock raising, provided	the	farmer has	real	estatesecurity to offer and is in a position to take a long term loan for it. In actual practice- and I speak	as an individual	who	raisesstock-if a man is really thrifty in his farming operations he	does	not regard	it as	goodbusiness to take out	a thirty-year	loan for the
purpose of financing the growing of stock which must, of necessity, come to maturity, if it is to be profitable, in three years.


George Halsey Perley: Surely he is not obliged to take out a thirty-year loan. He can take a shorter loan.


Charles Avery Dunning: Not under the terms of the federal farm loan scheme which passed this house. It is a long term loan system.


George Halsey Perley: Surely that cannot be the case. Can he not take it for a shorter term?


Mr. BROWN:: Is there not a provision
in the bill whereby the loan can be repaid after five years?


Charles Avery Dunning: Hon. members are asking me to call on my memory rather too much.


John Livingstone Brown: I know that is in the Manitoba Loan Act, and I thought the one that we passed in this house had the same provision.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is a matter of fact which, in any event, can be ascertained. I can say this, that any long term farm loan scheme should contain a provision for repayment of the whole amount during the currency of the loan. I believe there is in our farm loan act some provision whereby that may be done. It may be that it is left to regulation, but in any event, the class of credit about which my hon. friend from Red Deer is speaking is not the class of credit contemplated by the federal farm loan system.


George Halsey Perley: If I may interrupt again, I am quite sure that this particular purpose was considered when the farm loan act was passed, and that a thrifty farmer who

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Dunning
wished to increase his stock, or do anything else in connection with his farm which would be spread over several years, could come to this board for a loan and use it for that purpose.


Charles Avery Dunning: Oh, undoubtedly.


George Halsey Perley: If he had to keep it for thirty years, there is something wrong with the act. I am quite sure the minister is mistaken that he cannot get it for a shorter term. In fact, I am sure that that was one of the purposes for which the act was passed.


Charles Avery Dunning: I can assure my hon.
friend that he cannot get a short term loan from the board, but he undoubtedly has the power of repayment.
Sir GEORGE PERLEY': That is the same thing.


Charles Avery Dunning: But that does not convert a farm loan scheme into an intermediate credit scheme. That is the distinction I am trying to draw, which my hon. friend from Red Deer referred to in his own remarks. Needless to say, Mr. Speaker, I am not at the present time indicating that, in my judgment, Canada can approach this problem from the point of view of setting up a new organization for the purpose of developing intermediate farm credits immediately. I do not think that there is yet sufficient experience on this continent in the working either of long term farm mortgage loans, organized as ours is under federal law, or of intermediate credit loans, organized as they are in the United States. I do not refer to European systems, because there is such a great disparity between the conditions prevailing on this continent and those prevailing in Europe that comparisons are almost useless to us from the point of view of the establishment of a credit basis for rural people.
Now my hon. friend asks that this resolution be referred to the committee on banking and commerce for further study. While I expect to be fairly busy this session, I would not personally object to that; but surely we should know something of what is in my hon. friend's mind as to the nature of the study to be given to it. For instance, is the committee to call witnesses from the United States to find out how their experiment is getting along? What are we going to do? How are we to get further information? We have available quite a recent report by Doctor Tory, the present head of the National Research Council, which I think is fairly conclusive up to the point of the
2419-20J
commencement of the United States experiment. I have just read the most authentic statement which I can secure from United States sources, that of a committee headed by the present president of the United States, as to the manner in which that experiment is turning out, and I would say that we in Canada would do well to go cautiously with respect to the further development of this matter until we have had a wider experience in the working of our own farm loan scheme and until we have had a longer experience at the expense of our neighbour to the south. AYe know now that the joint stock land bank feature of the United States scheme certainly has not justified the hopes of the promoters. We know that this branch of the United States system is not one which we would desire to bring into effect in this country. As to what weaknesses may develop in connection with the intermediate credit feature, it is too early to say; quite frankly, it is not possible to say, or to gather sufficient information from the limited experience of the United States with intermediate credit institutions upon which to base an opinion.
I do not think there is anything further that I can say at this stage, Mr. Speaker, except to thank my hon. friend for again bringing to the attention of this house a matter which does repay the study put upon it, but for wlhich mankind on this continent has not as yet discovered any royal or guaranteed solution. He expressed it in his resolution, very properly, in very general terms. He speaks of intermediate credit as being a desirable thing, with which statement we could probably all agree, but I do not know whether it is advisable to refer this resolution to the banking and commerce committee unless we have some knowledge of what it is proposed to do with it there.


Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Wetaskiwin):: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) has treated this subject so widely and comprehensively that there is not very much left for me to say in the matter, except by way of general discussion of the principle. At the outset he very properly dissociated himself from a supposed class of people who want a great deal of credit disseminated widely among the people. If there is such a class of people I also wish to dissociate myself from them. As a matter of fact, there is no such class of people. That is merely a characterization by those who control credit, of those who seek credit reform. I think it proper for me to make it clear that what is being asked in

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Irvine
the resolution is not more credit but the opportunity for those who may have credit to use it in any manner that may be best for their own interests. In other words, we ask a special credit facility to serve the need of a special agricultural requirement. For those who have no credit, no credit facility is required.
The Minister of Finance in referring to this point very properly said that it is important to have a basis for credit. If there is no basis for credit, of course no one could ask for or get credit, so it is clear that we are not trying to secure for any class of agriculturist something which they do not already have, but rather, as I have said, the right to use what they have. May I point out that in respect to this question the hon. member for Red Deer has set forth a need which he has experienced among his people in the west, a need for the supplying of which I know from personal experience a great many farmers are looking to this house. It is not a creation of his imagination but a real problem perhaps in all agricultural centres throughout Canada, and most decidedly acute in the west.
The question, then, for this house to consider is whether or not that need is there. Not only do I believe such a need exists, but I have recollections of our investigations into credit matters some years ago both in committee and in this house. I recall eminent bankers of this country admitting in committee that there was a need for credit in this connection, that there was what the minister terms a "blank spot" in our credit system, and that this was the blank spot. I think the bankers expressed themselves as being willing to assist in anything that would fill up that gap, and hoped that some means would be found of doing so. I am sure I could mention the names of hon. members of this house, whose influence is unquestionable, who would also agree that there is a need for credit to cover this class of agriculturist.
So the question comes to be one of real practical statesmanship. As the hon. member for Red Deer very properly pointed out the soundness of such a credit business as might result from a consideration of his proposal will depend upon the economic sound-nc:ss of the branches of agriculture in the interests of which such credit facilities would be created. If there is no soundness in these branches of agriculture, the sooner we know it the better.
I do not wish to prolong this debate, but I do want to make a comment on the remarks of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning). His attitude, in a general way, may be considered

more or less favourable to the general idea, but his attitude of inactivity, as indicated, is not what we had hoped for, nor does it adequately meet the case. He has spoken at some length and in some detail about the sort of organization and machinery which might be considered necessary before such a scheme could be made practicable; he has referred to its working in the United States, pointing out some of its machinery and some of its defects, and has emphasized the fact that the experience so far has not been sufficient to warrant us following their example in every detail. So far so good, but are we to wait without an effort until we know what is going to happen in the working out of the United States system? Does the minister not realize that our farmers are waiting for some assistance in this regard, and it is not sufficient for them to be told that they must wait until the people of the United States have found out how we can be served? That, as I understand it, is the attitude taken by the minister. He says, "We must go cautiously." I agree with him, but in Heaven's name let us go. Let us go somewhere; to go cautiously is not to sit down.


Charles Avery Dunning: Go where?


William Irvine: The hon. Minister of Finance who is in charge of this matter and all other matters of credit in Canada, when faced with a definite problem should not be asking me where to go. I presume that, if I were to recognize his question and make an effort to tell him where to go, he would not go very far on my advice.


Charles Avery Dunning: I should be very glad
to have the hon. member's advice; that is what I am looking for this afternoon.


William Irvine: If my hon. friend will permit this question to go where it can be considered in detail, then if I have any advice I shall be very glad to give it to him and if he treats that advice in the manner he has heretofore I shall not be disappointed. In any case, I will give that advice willingly, but I do say that in his position and with his capabilities, upon which I congratulate him, and convinced as he must be of the actuality of the problem as presented by the hon. member for Red Deer, and also conceding to him the advisability of going cautiously, the minister must see the force of our demand for immediate constructive action.
Before such a need could be met, as has been drawn to the attention of the minister by the hon. member for Red Deer, there must necessarily be a great deal of study, a great deal of investigation and inquiry, and

Agricultural Credits-Mr. McQuarrie
a great deal of organization. That will probably take years to accomplish, but in the meantime are we to sit quietly and do nothing? Can we not study the matter? Can we not investigate it?


Charles Avery Dunning: Surely.


William Irvine: Can we not take some steps towards ultimate action, or are we simply to pass it over and say, "We will wait until the United States have proven that their system is no good, and then, because the United States has failed, we must fail as well. Let us continue therefore, to go so cautiously that we do not go at all."


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend knows
how unfair that is.


William Irvine: I certainly do not want to
be unfair to the hon. minister, and if my remarks seem to be unfair I want him to know that is the last thought I have in mind. I appreciate the fact that the problem is a very difficult one; I realize also that the minister's task is even more difficult, and I have no desire to say anything which would belittle any opinion which the minister holds. However, I do not think that he himself is satisfied with the answer he made, that we had better not do anything in the meantime. I think we should pass this on to the committee where the matter can be studied. The Minister of Finance asks what is the committee to consider? The reply is that the committee must consider that there is a need for credit facilities to a certain class of agriculturists which are not provided for by the banks or by the Farm Loan Act. The committee should further consider how this parliament can meet that need. As to how far the committee shall go in the calling of witnesses and the extent of the investigation, we leave that to the intelligence of the committee. I would not expect that they should go all over the world for witnesses; I would not even expect that they should go to the United Statees to get people to come here and tell us what not to do. I would rather concentrate on our own problems and peculiar difficulties, and get such men as are available in Canada, without having to go long distances, who could contribute what they know to our consideration of the problem before us. We may not solve the problem this year, or even next year, but that is all the greater reason why we should be busy on it. If it is so intricate, so difficult, the sooner we get on the job the better. I think the minister will find that the hon. gentleman who moved this resolution, and those of us who support him, will be very
reasonable in what we expect the committee to do. We shall not exceed any privilege which may be granted by the passing of the resolution; all we ask for is some action towards the study of the question so that we may not jump into some scheme which may be abortive. I do not think that even I, with all the rashness which my hon. friend attributes to me, would ask him to do anything like that.
Therefore, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Spencer):
That the motion be amended by adding the following words:
"and that this motion be referred to the banking and commerce committee for consideration thereon and report to the house."


Charles Avery Dunning: Agreed.


William Garland McQuarrie: Mr. Speaker, the subject of this
resolution is one which should have full and adequate consideration. There is a blank between the credits furnished by the banks and the credits which are obtainable under the Farm Loan Act; there is an intermediate space which is not being taken care of. As I understand the object of the Farm Loan Act, it was to enable farmers to borrow money with which to carry on and improve their farms, but unfortunately it is not working out that way. I do not intend to criticize in any way the chairman of the board or any of its officers or members-it is the system. The farmer who wants to get money to improve his farm cannot get it from the farm loan board unless he can present securities sufficient to warrant the loan.


Charles Avery Dunning: Of course.


William Garland McQuarrie: That is to say, he
cannot get money on the farm as it will be after it is improved.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is right.


William Garland McQuarrie: He cannot get money with which to improve his farm or to buy stock; he has to have the same security which he would be required to produce if he were borrowing money from a loan company. I remember the time when loan companies considered farm security as the very best security which could be obtained, and money was freely loaned by loan companies and others on farm lands. I will not attempt to explain to the house the cause, but the fact is that a great many loan companes will not now lend money on farm lands. I have had
310	COMMONS
Agricultural Credits- \Ir. McQuarrie
a number of cases brought to my attention where reputable men who have been farming for many years, men who had every prospect of succeeding, have been unable to borrow money from the farm loan board. No doubt that has been the experience all over the country, because the farm loan board is now taking the place of the loan company in respect to farm loans. That is not a satisfactory condition in a country like Canada, a new country which must be developed and where agriculture is such an important element in our national life, and some means should be devised of advancing money to the man who wishes to improve his farm, provided of course, that it is found after proper investigation that he is a man who is entitled to credit and who in all probability will succeed.
I quite appreciate the fact that there may be some hesitation in lending money on chattel security, and I doubt very much whether it would be fair to urge the banks to lend money on such security. But it seems to me that the whole subject is one which might very well be submitted to the banking and commerce committee without any strings attached to the reference, except the understanding that the committee will be reasonable in making expenditures necessitated by the calling of witnesses and so forth. But I am sure, as was stated by the previous speaker, that that committee may be depended upon not to do anything unreasonable. The [DOT]Canadian farmer should be helped. I know what the situation is in British Columbia. ~SYe have good land in that province, but in many cases we have first to remove the trees and stumps before the land can be cultivated. How is the farmer going to do that unless he gets some kind of assistance? As far as I can see one of the responsibilities of the government of the Dominion is to assist the agriculturists so that Canada can be developed as it should be.


Henry Herbert Stevens: A few moments ago I asked the minister a question, and I fear he had not the information under his hand to answer it. It, however, to my mind bears directly upon this resolution, and it ought to be considered really before any action is taken on the resolution itself. In order to make my question clearer to the minister's mind, may I recall to his memory and to the memory of the mover of the resolution and other hon. gentlemen present what has already occurred in parliament? In 1923 parliament spent, I think, some three months in revising the Bank Act. .During the revision of the Bank Act, which

was perhaps one of the most seriously considered revisions in the history of Canada, one thing that stood out very clearly was the inadequacy of provision in the banking system of Canada to meet the needs of the agriculturist of the country, that is, something of a nature other than on strictly banking principles. I recall very well my hon. friend who has moved the resolution (Mr. Speak-man), the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Spencer), several other hon. gentlemen and myself were on a subcommittee, I think the subsequent session, to consider that particular phase of the question and difficulty. That committee brought in a report which I find referred to in Dr. Tory's report dealing with the question. In other words, it was recognized that there was a hiatus which was not bridged by the Bank Act. The subcommittee recommended-and the banking and commerce committee accepted their recommendation and the house accepted it-that some steps should be taken. The committee recommended as follows:
Therefore, your committee recommend that the investigation of the subject-
That is really the same subject that we are talking about now.
-he continued in order to determine whether it be possible to coordinate the various systems of rural credit now in existence into a federal system applicable to the whole of Canada, and that legislation be prepared based on the said further investigations and calculated to meet the credit needs of the agricultural classes of the Dominion, and submitted to parliament at its next session.
Fallowing that, Dr. Tory was appointed as a commission or commissioner to make an investigation. He presented two reports, one in 1924 and his final report in 1925. I have had these under my hand only for a moment or two, and I have not had time to go into them to any greater extent than to refresh my memory, but I would like to call attention to one or two points in that report because, after all, I find very frequently parliament repeats over and over again work it has already done. In this report Dr. Tory makes certain observations. For instance, he has on page 18 of the final report some observations regarding intermediate credits, the very subject that is being discussed this afternoon. He says:
The period of intermediate loans varies from six months to three years, depending somewhat on the punpose to which the money is to be applied. It is a banking operation, although it may have associated with it a chattel mortgage as security. Generally, the security is personal, or non-perishable farm products, or live stock.

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Stevens
Then he says that certain methods may be brought in regarding it. He says that there is cooperation-, government assistance, or a combination of the two. Then he goes on to say:
I am of the opinion that the road to the solution of the problem for Canada lies in another direction.
Then he makes this statement:
I think that experience has already shown that a sound plan along these lines could be worked out under proper supervision and control. It would be a definite step toward the realization ultimately of financial control and, therefore, independence by the farmers themselves. Discounting facilities would have to be provided by some central agency, either a corporation specially created, as suggested by the president of the Bank of Commerce, or organized and to some extent at least, capitalized by the government, as in the United States.
Then he says:
Two methods of meeting the difficulty are suggested:
(a)	Through the development further of cooperative organizations;
(b)	Through provincial savings banks.
Then ihe says:
I am of the opinion that the development of cooperative organizations is the proper way to proceed, and for the following reasons:
(1)	It will give the farmer himself the experience which will teach him how to use money advantageously and in a business way;
(2)	It will, if successful, lead ultimately to financial independence by putting him in relation to a self-supporting financial institution through which capital can be commanded.
He goes on ,to say:
I am further of the opinion that the organization, supervision and control of this type of credit should be left to the provinces. Dominion supervision would be difficult and expensive.
There follow some other observations of an equally interesting character. Following that report, the government of which my hon. friend is a member, and I may say through his late predecessor whom I am exceedingly sorry to note has passed from our midst, introduced an act called an act for the purpose of establishing in Canada a system of long term mortgage credit for farmers.


Charles Avery Dunning: Canadian Farm Loan Act is the title.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes, the short title. What I wish to draw the attention of the house to is this: when -that act was brought down, it was stated very clearly by the government-* and it has been so argued before the agricultural public of the country-that it was introduced to carry out the recommendations of the banking and commerce committee to which I have referred, and the recommendations of Dr. Tory who made an exhaustive investigation and an excellent report. But as a matter of fact, as the minister himself argued when I asked my question of him a few minutes ago, the Farm Loan Act apparently is not doing that. That is the point I wanted to find out.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is not an intermediate credit act.


Henry Herbert Stevens: No; but the point was that the government introduced it as an intermediate loan act.


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


Mr. SPENCER:: No.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Unquestionably the government brought it into the house as a solution of the problem to which I have been referring in connection with these reports. My hon. friend (Mr. Spencer) will recall perfectly well that it was the rural credits or intermediate credits we argued about for months in the banking and commerce committee.


Charles Avery Dunning: I know my hon. friend does not want to be unfair in the matter. It fell to my lot, substituting for my late friend, Mr. Robb, to pilot 'that measure through the committee stage in the house, and I certainly remember drawing a clear distinction at all times between the two problems of long-term mortgage credits and intermediate credits. I certainly never attempted to convey to anyone that this was an effort to deal with the intermediate credit feature of the problem.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What the minister says may be perfectly true; I am not disputing that at all, but what I do say is that the problem of intermediate credits for agriculture has been before this house for the last fen years. It has been actively before this house since 1923, and we have spent a great deal of time studying the problem. Doctor Tory's report deals specifically with it. The point I am making at the moment is that in producing the Farm Loan Act this government did not discharge its duty in regard to the report which its own commissioner made.
I turn to the act itself. I have not had time to peruse it very carefully, but from a hasty survey one or two points arise to which I would like to refer.
In connection with loans, it certainly does provide that they must be a first mortgage

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Stevens
security on the farm, and that the proceeds of such loans shall be used for the following purposes:
(i)	To purchase farm land; (ii) To purchase fertilizers, seed, live stock, tools, machinery and any implements and equipment necessary to the proper operation of the farm mortgaged; (iii) To erect farm buildings or to clear, drain, fence or make any other permanent improvement tending to increase the productive value of the land; (iv) To discharge liabilities already accumulated.
That is a pretty broad provision. It continues :
(v) Any purpose which in the judgment of the board may be reasonably considered as improving the value of the land for agricultural purposes.
It is true that this act is not called an intermediate credit loans act, but it is a pretty wide measure and provides for a broad distribution and use of the funds, and as a matter of fact it fairly well covers almost everything the farmer would require. My hon. friend from Argenteuil (Sir George Perley) calls my attention to the fact that paragraph (b) of section 7 of the act refers specifically to live stock. I will read that paragraph again:
(ii)	To purchase fertilizers, seed, live stock, tools, machinery and any implements and equipment necessary to the proper operation of the farm mortgaged.
The minister raised the question a few moments ago that the act was in fact a long term act, whatever it might be called. Here is what paragraph (h) of section 7 says:
_ Notwithstanding anything in this act, but subject to such regulations as the board may prescribe not inconsistent with the provisions of the Interest Act, any borrower may at any time repay the whole or any part thereof on any date on which an instalment becomes due, and any such payment shall be credited to the borrower in such manner as the board may by regulation prescribe as hereinafter provided, but no such payment shall relieve the borrower from meeting all subsequent payments punctually as they fall due.


Mr. CHAPLIN:: Does not that clause make it a short term loan?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Absolutely. They can borrow the money to-day and repay it in six months. The instalments become due every six months and the whole loan may be paid off on any date when the instalments become due.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend is a student of these matters, I know, but I am sure he would not suggest that for a live stock loan a farmer should go to the expense of putting a mortgage on his land, with all that is involved in that.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Certainly not, but this act was palmed off on the country as meeting the requirements which we are now discussing.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: No, no.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend says "no, no," but I would remind him and the rest of the house of the weeks and months that we spent in the banking and commerce committee in different years discussing this very question.


Edward Joseph Garland: I was a
member of the committee.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes, and my hon. friend
from Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) was a member of the subcommittee, and this subject of intermediate credits was the whole subject of our discussions, other than the revision of the Bank Act; and for three years this very subject was discussed. My submission is this, that in this report of Doctor Toiy you have all the information you require at the present time, and if you have not, I can refer the house to evidence, a pile four feet high, which you will find in the custody of the clerk of the banking and commerce committee, taken from representatives from all over the United States and Canada and from societies interested in this matter. There are piles-I was going to say tons-of evidence on this subject, and the point I am making is that with all this evidence available, together with the report of Doctor Tory, the government is in just as good a position to bring down an act now to meet the situation as it would be if we spent more time this session going over the whole question again and collecting more evidence. I recall, or I am almost certain, that when this act was passing through the house I pointed out to the government that it did not meet completely the requirements of the report of Doctor Toiry, but I said that as it went part of the way I had no particular objections to it. Without being able to point at the moment to any specific instance, I venture to say that the present Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) has frequently taken credit to the government for having met all the requirements of the agriculturists of this country by the passing of this act by the government of which he was a member, and now he finds that it is not filling the bill, that it is not serving the purpose which it was supposed to serve.


Charles Avery Dunning: Oh no.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister quoted extensively a few moments ago from a document of a commission of which I think Mr. Hoover was chairman. Doctor Tory antici-

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Stevens
pated all that question of joint stock banks; he reviews it in his report, and recommends against them. He said he did not think that was the best way to deal with the matter, that a better way was the one he recommended, which has not yet been tried.
Mr. DUNNING; My hon. friend did not quote Doctor Tory's specific recommendation as to the kind of intermediate credit institution which would be suitable for 'Canada. I think it is important to have that on Hansard.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister will recall
that about half an hour ago he had some difficulty in at once answering a question I put to him, although I noticed that he came prepared with some documents. I have just stepped into the house this afternoon, and I cannot at the moment find the particular paragraph in the report, but I am sure it is here.
Mr. DUNNING; You read a portion of it.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I think it is here, if the
minister will bear with me a moment. I will read the recommendations, and we will see whether it is here or not. Doctor Tory under the head of "Recommendations" says-this may, of course, go directly contrary to what I have been arguing, but if it does I will take my medicine; I will take a chance on it because I have a great admiration for Doctor Tory's report. He says:
After the most careful considerations of the whole matter, of the difficulties to be overcome, the end to be gained and the purpose to be served, the last plan, that of cooiperation between the Dominion and provincial governments, is recommended. The following are the chief reasons for this recommendation:
(1)	Through the agency of the Dominion government, money can be obtained at the lowest interest rates possible, a most important consideration.
(2)	The machinery for making loans, already available in some of the provinces, could be utilized with modifications, thus giving the advantage of past experience in dealing with the problem. Any province not already having the machinery and desiring to take advantage of the plan could create the necessary machinery as defined in the act.
(3)	The cost of administration would be smaller, especially in the beginning, than by any other method.
(4)	The administrative boards could be given sufficient authority to free them from political control,-
That is rather a long shot, under the present regime:
-while being backed by and haying the supervision of the provincial authorities.
(5)	The burden of supervision upon the central board, which in a country so spread out as ours would be a matter of some difficulty,
would be greatly lessened. From an administrative point of view, so far as the Dominion government is concerned, this without question would be satisfactory.
(6)	Some of the provinces of Canada might not desire to take advantage of any scheme. In that case they would not be compelled to assume any responsibility, as they could remain out of the arrangement.
(7)	It would have the great advantage of placing upon the local authorities the responsibility for making and collecting the loans with their own credit involved. Local conditions would certainly be better understood by responsible local authorities.
(8)	By establishing proper supervision from the beginning and keeping attention directed upon the possibility of ultimately having an independent organization, as described under 3 above, the provincial boards could easily become the local units of a coordinated scheme later on by uniting them under a common authority. Provision can be made in the original act to bring this to pass in due course. Time would in this way be given for the idea of a federal system to mature and materialize.
It is respectfully suggested that an act be prepared and submitted to parliament embodying the foregoing suggestions.


Charles Avery Dunning: Was that referring specifically to intermediate credit banks?


Henry Herbert Stevens: I would say that it was.


Charles Avery Dunning: Perhaps -my hon. friend would read the specific section relating to that point.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I have here the observations of Doctor Tory on that point.


Charles Avery Dunning: Observations, not recommendations.


Henry Herbert Stevens: These are Doctor Tory's
own words. My hon. friend laughs but-


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


Henry Herbert Stevens: -but I am not giving him this as an argument of mine, I am giving him the argument of his own commissioner. I think the minister ought to pay more regard to Dr. Tory's report in that respect. Dr. Tory's commission was a very carefully prepared and thought out adventure on the part of the government. It was after several years of study and debate in this house that the commission was appointed. I suggest that that report might very well be perused by the minister, and that we might have from him a statement on how. the present act is working out, if it is working out at all, and in what way we can improve it in the light of Dr. Tory's report and the mass of evidence already before us. That is the submission I make to the minister, together with my view that the present act does not fulfil the

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Evans
requirements of the situation, although it was introduced undoubtedly with the intention of quieting the demands of many of my hon. friends to the left for intermediate credit legislation.


Mr. JOHN EVANS (Rosetown):: This question, Mr. Speaker, has become acute of late years, and while I should like to see the whole question of agricultural credits again investigated by a special committee of this house, I do think the government should have acted on the findings of the special committee on agriculture made about five years ago. There is a cause for this question having become acute at the present time. First, the banks are not giving the farmers adequate credit to carry on their operations. Now, why are they not lending? The fact is the security is not sufficient. A good many years ago the banks loaned very freely, at least for three, six or nine months in the year; now they are not doing so. In some cases the farmers to whom they made loans have become so involved that the banks themselves have had to take over the farms. I have in mind one or two cases where farmers were induced to borrow money for the sake of increasing their production. To-day the banks own the farms. In one case on an eight hundred acre farm ten thousand dollars was borrowed. Later the bank secured title to the farm. Then they sold it to another farmer, who paid a substantial sum of money down. He himself to-day is in the same pickle as the former owner-in debt to such an extent that he can never hope to clear himself.
It seems to me that if the government had acted on the findings of the special committee on agriculture of five years ago we would have somewhat solved this problem by now. The main cause of the whole trouble is that the prices of farm products are out of line entirely with the prices of what the farmer has got to purchase. We are told we should raise more live stock, and I believe that next week in this city a conference will be held under the auspices of the Department of Agriculture to consider increasing the production of farm products for export. As I say, the prices of everything produced on the farm are out of line entirely with what the farmer needs to carry on his operations. Even the milled stuffs with which he feeds his stock are dearer to-day in western Canada than they are in any of the countries to which our farm products are being shipped. For this reason the banks do not feel that sufficient security is offered for the credit required.

The Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) has said that local conditions do not lend themselves to the organization of local credit societies. This is only too true, because farming in a manner has become a precarious occupation. To-day our farm population is moving to the urban centres, and indeed we are changing more and more from the landlord class to the tenant class. Towards the end of the war the banks loaned freely for the production of live stock, but they did not give sufficient time to the farmer to realize on his live stock, and many of those men today have been forced off the land. That we need credit is no doubt plain to all, but we should strike at the root cause of the problem. For this reason I should like to see the whole question investigated by a special committee of this house, with power to bring before them all those concerned in credit operations, loan companies and so on, and I think this would be the best course to take at the present time.


Hewitt Bostock: Is the house ready for
the question?


Edward Joseph Garland: Mr. Speaker, before the question is put there are one or two points which we might clear up. I must first of all congratulate the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) on being back again with us, and also thank him most heartily for the intense cooperation and earnest work that he has always extended to his colleagues in this house in connection with this question. I think the hon. gentleman and Sir Henry Drayton were the two members of the Conservative party sitting to your left, Mr. Speaker, who were the most interested and certainly did the most work in this regard. I do not think there is any member in the house who has more consistently or more earnestly devoted his ability to the solution of the problem that is before us than the hon. member for Vancouver Centre.
In his speech a few moments ago he referred to the undoubted fact that for nearly three years the banking committee had considered the problem of intermediate credits. It did so, but it considered intermediate credits only as one phase of the problem of agricultural credits. When this federal legislation to which reference has been made, known as the Canadian Farm Loan Act, was introduced no gold brick was handed to me, nor do I think the agricultural class of western Canada were in the least deluded as to what they got. It is true the expectations aroused at that time have not been met. But they never expected the long term loan act

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Garland (Bow River)
to mean an intermediate credit act. At no time could that statement be made as one of fact. There may have been individuals who confused the two questions. I do not recollect a single paragraph in Dr. Tory's report where he made any specific recommendation to parliament in the matter of intermediate credits- not a single one. The specific recommendations leading towards legislation dealt almost entirely with a long term rural credit system. I shall not at the moment discuss in detail the long term rural credit system, but it may not be amiss to say, in passing, that it is not meeting the requirements of agriculture. It is, on the whole, being administered in a most unsatisfactory manner. Possibly the reason for that is undue cautiousness on the part of the provincial officers who have the administrative responsibility in connection with the assessment and granting of loans. Whatever the reasons are, agriculture as a whole is not satisfied with the working out of the present act. The hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) quoted from the act itself to show that loans might be made for the purposes of live stock, improvement of the farm, seed grain, machinery, and other things. That is all true, but no farmer wants to ask a long term loan for the purpose of making a short term commitment or investment. No business man would want to do it, and no farmer wants to do it. The difficulty in connection with that is that before you can get a loan under this act you have to undertake the expense of the inspection and the assessment, and all the other burdens of cost that are common to the issuing of a loan on a mortgage. A loan is made, not on the basis of chattel goods but on the basis of the land itself with a small percentatge for improvements to the permanent buildings on the farm. A farmer, therefore, is not going to borrow money for live stock investment, for the purchase of seed, or things of that kind, under an act such as we now have. As I say, Mr. Speaker, the intermediate needs of agriculture are not being met by this act, and whether or not the hon. member for Vancouver Centre or any other hon. member has the conception that the act was to meet that need does not really matter at the moment. The fact is the need is present, and therefore the hon. member for Red Deer may well be congratulated for asking that the house consider this question, and the hon. member for Wetaskiwin (Mr. Irvine) should also be congratulated for suggesting the very reasonable procedure that the question should again be referred to the banking and commerce committee, the only body over
which we have jurisdiction in this house that can give sufficiently intelligent consideration to the question, and the only body that could recommend back to this house legislation which would meet the immediate requirements of agriculture.
Mr. Speaker, the present banking system has much to recommend it to commercial institutions, but so far as agriculture is concerned, any service that we have secured-and there is no question the system has been of service to us-has been rather because of the generosity of the bankers than because of the Bank Act or the provisions under the Bank Act. If in the beginning of the year a farmer wants a loan of money, varying from S200 to $10,000, for his current requirements, he goes to the local branch manager and presents his case. The local branch manager pulls out a drawer, takes therefrom a long piece of paper, and proceeds to put the farmer through a catechism as intense as that to which a person is subjected when he goes to hospital. After you get through with the local bank manager you feel that he has on that piece of paper your life history, your family's life history and everything belonging to you. That is all right; he is making an estimate of your financial condition, and after it is all over he grants you the loan. In the old days in western Canada very little difficulty was experienced in getting a small loan for current purposes. The west has been built up on credit-it is true it was its own credit- extended to it by banks that became established out there. Well, the farmer gets that loan for three months. At the time the loan is made, both the banker who makes it and the farmer who gets it know that it cannot and will not be repaid in three months. There is the peculiar situation about it all. Although it is a loan for three months at eight per cent-and we do not get money any cheaper out there even now-the banker knows the farmer could not pay in three months. The three months elapse. The loan, we will say, was taken out in April. April, May and June have gone by, and the middle of July is here. The farmer gets a note from the banker saying, "Your note is due, come in and see me." The farmer goes in and interviews the banker. By this time the banker has got a message from head office telling him to cut down on his loans, telling him that times are bad, or that money is more stringent. The banker asks the farmer if he can at least pay the interest on his note. The farmer tells him he cannot because he has not liquidated any stock in the meantime, and he has not got the wheat and will not
316	COMMONS
Agricultural Credits-Mr. Garland (Bow River)
have it bill the crop is harvested. Under the Bank Act, banks are not permitted to lend money on real estate, but as soon as the farmer goes in he asks for a renewal of his note. The banker then asks if he has a mortgage on his land, and if the farmer tells him he has not he will ask him to bring in his title; so that in effect the money is actually loaned on real estate, because it is then held as collateral three months later. Just about a month after that harvest comes on, and the farmer has to have more money, harvest expenses are usually cash-binder twine, labour, and so on. The farmer requires another S200. Of course the manager is getting nervous-that is, if he has been left there long enough-and he will tell you that he will take the matter up with his superintendent, who may be anywhere from four hundred to two thousand miles away. He takes it up with his superintendent. You go in to see him a week later and he tells you, "Well, frankly, I have taken the matter up but things are not looking very good; crop conditions are bad,"-or that the farmer has too much wheat, or the price is low, or there is something wrong. He says: "Have you any cattle?" and if you admit having some cattle he will ask you if you would mind giving their description, age and brand marks

"on this piece of paper, thank you," -and then you sign that. It is a chattel mortgage on the cattle. Now, Mr. Speaker, I make the assertion, without fear of contradiction, that if the Canadian 'bankers ever lost a dollar in western Canada it was not through any fault of theirs; it was through conditions over which they had no personal control, or conditions which could not have been foreseen. That banking system, to any member who is a farmer, and to those who are studying the question, is obviously wholly unsuited for the mixed farming which we are advised now to take up. The farmer is continually being told: "You have to stop this straight grain raising and go into mixed farming if you want to be prosperous and thrifty."
I do not think anybody has been deluded as to the purposes of the long term rural credits act which passed the house in 1926. It may be that in time, under good administration, with improved methods of assessment, and so on, the working of the act may be improved. At the present time it is not working satisfactorily. Even if it were working splendidly, even if long term loans were available freely and easily to those who deserve or require them, still the act would not take the place of that which the hon. member for Red Deer is requesting. I strongly support the resolution, Mr. Speaker, and I trust 
that this house will see the wisdom of referring once more to a committee the consideration of this problem so tlhat we may try to do something, not five or six years hence but as soon as possible, to meet the intermediate requirements of agriculture. I can readily understand and sympathize with the point of view of the Minister of Finance. The country is sparsely settled. The problems of intermediate credits are problems that are intensified by sparse settlement, by lack of intensive agricultural developments and by lack of immediately .available markets. Our system of agriculture in Canada is undergoing a steady .change, the rapidity and healthiness of which may depend largely upon the character of itlhe credit system which we may institute.
The minister suggested that he would like to have some idea as to the direction in which we were tending in regard to this system of intermediate credits. I want to say to him quite frankly that the only form of such credits I can conceive at the moment as being practical and applicable to western Canada would be a system based upon the establishment of local cooperative rural credit secieties where, so far as may be possible, you will get pooled together the credit resources of zones, districts or even of provinces. The smaller you start of course the weaker the system will be; the larger the unit the stronger the system, but I take it that we will have to start in a small way at first. In my own province we have a small cooperative system in operation which would at once interlock with any federal scheme of cooperative rural credits, and I should like to see the committee investigate this question along those lines.
With that statement, Mr. Speaker, I give my support to this motion, sincererly trusting that the house will see the wisdom of referring this question to the committee.


Alfred Speakman: Mr. Speaker-


Hewitt Bostock: This will close the debate.


Charles Avery Dunning: There is an amendment, Mr. Speaker, which I 'think gives me the right to say a few words in addition.
I only desire to point out that in my previous remarks when I emphasized the essential difference between a long term credit system and an intermediate system I was following very closely along the line adopted by Doctor Tory in his report. I have been unable to find in that report recommendations looking to the establishment of an intermediate credit system, but as a matter of fact there are recommendations, which are implemented in existing legislation, looking to the establish-

Agricultural Credits-Mr. Dunning
ment of long term agricultural credit. In this regard, l'or the information of the house and particularly for the information of my hon. friend for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens), I should like to read the last paragraph of Doctor Tory's report as illustrating what I am now stating:
Should the government deem it wise, during the present session of parliament, to take action with regard to the establishment of a plan for the development of long term and short term credit, I would respectfully urge that an intensive study of this problem be continued. If it is considered wiser to wait for further maturity of opinion on the subject, then I would respectfully suggest that, as the period given for the preparation of this report has hardly been sufficient to study the problem from the point of view of the communities seeking benefit, that I be permitted to continue the study of the problem in the interim.
It is true, of course, that Doctor Tory does make a number of observations with regard to intermediate credit.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister quoted from the report of 1924, instead of the report of 1925. Doctor Tory continued the study and made a further report in 1925.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, and that report contained no recommendations with respect to the establishment of intermediate credit institutions, although it included observations on the problem.
The point is that we are still in the position -and have been in the position since we received the report of the last commission which studied this matter-of continuing our studies. My hon. friend from Red Deer asks that this work go forward from the point it has now reached. I am trying to demonstrate now that in the legislation already on the statute books we have reached the point which the information at that time warranted. I think my hon. friend from Red Deer will be the first to confirm that statement.
My second point is that the farm loan act has been some time in coming into effect, for the reason that it involved cooperation between the Dominion and the provinces. The provinces took that length of time to decide to come under the provisions of the act and so assume these responsibilities and obligations. With respect to intermediate credits several of the provinces have conducted experiments through the medium of rural credit societies of one type or another, but their experience in this regard has not been particularly fortunate. I am quite willing that this matter should be referred to the committee, and I suggest that if this course is taken the committee should investigate the reasons for the difficulties
which have arisen in the operation of provincial credit schemes, all of which were based upon the local unit feature suggested as a possible model by Doctor Tory. I think it fair to say, without casting any reflection on any province, that the provincial schemes cannot be regarded as having been successful in meeting the problem of intermediate credits, and so I suggest that the committee might welt endeavour to get at the causes which have occasioned the disappointment which has been experienced with regard to these provincial schemes.
In the light of the discussion which has occurred, Mr. Speaker, I am quite prepared to support the suggestion that the resolution be referred to the committee on banking and commerce.


Alfred Speakman: Mr. Speaker, I propose to be very brief in what I have to say. First I wish to thank those members, and particularly the Minister of Finance, who have taken part in the debate, for the interest shown in and the sympathetic consideration given to this resolution. .
In advancing this suggestion I purposely refrained from advocating any definite or specific manner of approaching this work or of setting up any system of intermediate credits. My purpose in so doing must be obvious. I have taken the trouble to study to some degree the different systems in vogue in different places, and I agree with the Minister of Finance that none has proved completely successful. Many difficulties have occurred in the development of the work, and the operation of the greater number of these systems leaves some doubt as to the best method to pursue. With that in mind, together with the fact that I was unable to evolve any system satisfactory to myself, I wished to leave the matter entirely open. I trusted that the committee would not undertake to go over the work covered in past years, during the progress of which a great amount of very useful evidence was collected, but that it might continue the work in the hope of finding some solution based upon that and any further evidence which might be found available at the present time. I do trust that the committee will not only examine the systems which have shown signs of success, but will also pay particular attention to the weaknesses which may have developed and the difficulties which may have arisen. While I am extremely anxious that such a system should bo put into operation with the least possible delay, I am even more anxious that this system when set up may function satisfactorily. In respect to the possibilities under the present long term
318	COMMONS
Agricultural Credits-Mr. Speakman
legislation, like the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) I am under no illusion as to its application to farm credit. In addition to the various difficulties which have been suggested already, I have only to point out that under the terms of the Canadian Farm Loan Act, no credit is available to homesteaders or renters; it is confined to those who have a clear title to their land. No man in the process of purchasing a farm or developing a homestead-there are thousands in that condition and we hope to have thousands more-can make use of the provisions ot the present act, even though he were prepared to undergo the trouble and stand the expense of applying for a loan.
This problem presents a definite field of endeavour to the banking and commerce committee, of which I am sorry to say I am no longer a member, and I am prepared to trust them to make a real examination of the circumstances and to give a sympathetic and interested study of the problem. I am quits prepared also to trust that committee to be reasonable in their demands upon the public exchequer.
I realize that this is a tremendously involved question, and if I may repeat what I have said before-I repeat it for the purpose of emphasis, not for mere reiteration-it is infinitely more essential to be certain of every step taken, to make as few mistakes as possible, to ascertain that we are on the right road before we start, then to plunge into it in too big a hurry. I am as anxious to see it put into effect as soon as possible as any hon. member in the house, I realize the need and the necessity of the farmers of this country for such a measure, but I am quite sure I am speaking for the common sense of those farmers when I say that they want something which will be based upon sound business administration and which will function as credit should function, to enable them to carry on business in a satisfactory way and not merely cause them to accumulate indebtedness which eventually would prove their ruin.
May I thank the minister and the other members of the house for their sympathetic acceptance of this resolution, and may I again say that I trust we may find a solution to this problem, and in so doing take a further step in bringing the agricultural industry of Canada to the place it should occupy.
Amendment (Mr Irvine) agreed to.
Motion (Mr. Speakman) as amended, agreed to.



INTERNATIONAL PEACE


Miss AGNES MACPHAIL (Southeast Grey) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, for everyone hundred dollars spent for war one dollar should be spent to promote peace by setting up a chair of international relationships and by instituting international scholarships in each Canadian university.
She said: Mr. Speaker, before I address myself to this resolution, I must confess that I wish it were worded differently. I should not have asked that scholarships be instituted in each Canadian university, because I am addressing myself only to the general principle that the federal government has a responsibility in regard to education for peace.
Taking the military estimates for last year which called for an expenditure of 820,000,000, it one dollar were spent for peace for every 8100 spent for war, we would have 8200,000 with which to set up chairs on international relations or international affairs and to institute scholarships in the leading universities of Canada. In my opinion that sum would be sufficient to inaugurate such work in each university, but as our universities are not placed in Canada with a proper relationship to the population, perhaps it would be better if we considered only the leading universities. I had the belief that there were some seventeen universities in Canada, but the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) said the other day that there were twenty-three. I do not know which figure is correct, but seventeen universities would be sufficient for the object I have in mind, in fact more than sufficient. Supposing we started with seventeen universities-


Mr. LAPOINTE:: There are twenty
universities.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: If we allowed $6,000
for the setting up of each chair, that v-ould amount to $102,000. If we allowed $1,200 each for four scholarships, in each university, two for Canadians going abroad and two for students of other countries coming to Canada, that would amount to $81,600. These two amounts deducted from the original amount of $200,000 would leave the tidy sum of $16,400 which would be sufficient to establish a rather remarkable library on international affairs. That sum could be divided up to pay for the beginning of libraries in each university where a chair was established.

International Peace-Miss Macphail
The fact that this parliament last year ratified the Kellogg pact, and -that -the leader of the delegation to Geneva this year signed the optional clause in the name of Canada convinces me that the Canadian people are desirous of obtaining peace through peaceful methods. They want peace and they are willing to adopt measures which they think will bring it about. Neither the people in Canada nor the people of other countries have as yet worked out a technique of peace. I was interested in reading an article entitled The New Patriotism is Peace by Mrs. Sinclair Lewis. This article appeared in the Readers Digest of 1930, and is a condensation of the original article in the Pictorial Review of December 1929. In making the point that we have not yet addressed ourselves to the technique of peace she said:
We must face the fact that to avert war we shall have to throw overboard a whole system of old ideas. It is a striking fact that the League of Nations, with all its secretariats, bureaus and commissions, could run for 600 years on the military budgets of its members for a single year. All of tradition is still on the side of war.
And that is true in Canada as in other countries. Still. I believe the Canadian people have lost confidence in armaments as a means to security and we are now at -the place where we are willing to try another method. We are willing to try to get peace by preparing for it, not to get peace by preparing for war, as was the old idea. It is because I believe we have reached the point where we are willing to consider new ideas that I have proposed this resolution and submitted it to the house for its approval.
I think we shall all admit that the world is an economic unit. This is a fact but it is not one that is generally recognized or realized. In Canada particularly we have been so lately drawn into world currents that we still suffer from narrowness and localism and it seems to me that the best approach to internationalizing the ideas and outlook of our Canadian people would be through our universities. The young people who go out from the universities with a properly developed foreign sense, as I would expect they would, should they come under the influence of a department of national affairs, would little by little diffuse that sense through the communities in which they live and they would help very materially to create and maintain in Canada an informed and intelligent opinion on foreign affairs. I believe Canada has a part to play in foreign affairs, a part that will become increasingly greater because we are still a young country
and because of our size from a geographical point of view. Our population is still sparse and our entrance into international affairs has only recently taken place, so that our place in the world is destined to become greater as the years go by. Already, however, Canada has .a considerable place in foreign affairs. We have now for a year or two had a place on the council of the League of Nations. We have established two legations, one in Washington and one in Japan. We have representatives-I may not be using the correct terms -in Geneva, Paris and London, and the work that is carried on in all of those places requires, and as time goes on will to a greater extent require, the services of young men and women who are well fitted to -take their place there. Those young men and women can be well fitted to do so only if they have a knowledge of international affairs. They must be definitely trained to serve in our offices abroad, whether we call them legations or the offices of representatives. It would seem to me it would be wise that as large a number as possible of these young men and women who gc to serve abroad should first have had experience in the Department of External Affairs ai home. They need to know the conditions thai we have to meet right here in Canada; thej need to know something about the personali ties they must work with in the home office when they go abroad. I should like to ask the government and, indeed, all of us:	What
provision have any of us tried to make for young people that they may fit themselves for service abroad? I wonder whether there is any other country as badly equipped to fit their young men and women to serve us well when they go to represent us in other parts of the world. Very few of our universities are equipped with departments of international affairs. I do not think there are any that are equipped with a department under that name. I believe Toronto university has a department of international law headed by Professor Mackenzie.
The government has in the past been able to find money to promote research in other fields such as agriculture, forestry and science, and it would seem to me that such a fundamental question as the maintenance of peace is worthy of consideration and action. I anticipate from other debates that we have had in the house on similar subjects, that some member of the government, if they bother to reply to the resolution, will say: But education is a provincial matter and we cannot interfere with it. I would recognize that in my sleep;
320	COMMONS
International Peace-Miss Macphail
I have heard it so often from the treasury benches that I know that is their stock-intrade reply. I notice, too, when the government of the Dominion wants to interfere, if that word is not objectionable, with education in the provinces, they are always able to do so. The Department of National Defence gives rather large sums in grants each year to schools throughout the different provinces to promote education for war. If we can interfere with education to promote ideas that will, if carried to their ultimate conclusion, lead to war, I see no reason why *ve cannot interfere with education to promote ideas that, if followed, will lead to peace. I think parliament has voted sums of money for technical education in the different provinces, so I am not asking for the first time that we should give sums of money in grants to the provinces. We have done it twice before: first to promote war, and, second, to promote a better understanding of technical things, so I feel the third time is not too much. Then, too, the question of peace and war is a federal matter. It is the business of the Dominion government to see to matters of peace and war, and if they are to see to the carrying out of war, is it not logical that they should strive by educational means to avoid war which we have found to be very costly? If we leave this matter to the initiative of the provinces, the most forward-looking of the provinces are most likely to take action on it first and they, I might say, are the provinces that need it least. If the grant is given at the same time to all the provinces, it will tend to maintain a uniformity of ideas throughout Canada and there is enough difference between ideas in the provinces already without adding to it.
In Canada we need a department of international affairs in the universities more than it is needed in most countries. In Great Britain, for instance, they have many great societies that have for their object the promotion of peace through the dissemination of knowledge in regard to foreign affairs. For example, in Great Britain the Foreign Office has a section that is devoted exclusively to the affairs of the League of Nations. That section of the Foreign Office is headed by a most capable man and he has many assistants. They devote their whole time to the affairs of the ieague, and through that office and through the association of the League of Nations a great deal of knowledge is disseminated throughout Great Britain and made available to the people. They do that to a much greater extent than we do here where
(Miss Macphail.3
an overburdened man has charge of affairs pertaining to the league. In Great Britain they have a large organization called the National Council for the Prevention of War. Hon. members may or may not be familiar with its work, but it is excellent; it is of a high character and it is educational. The Union of Democratic Control was started a long time ago, one of the founders being Ramsay MacDonald, now Prime Minister of Great Britain, and there is published by that organization an excellent magazine called Foreign Affairs. That magazine is read, I believe, by many hon. members and we know how excellent it is.
While the government of the United States, one would sometimes think, is not very much affected by public opinion in that country, still they have there some splendid organizations for the promotion of peace through education. Among the best is the National Council for the Prevention of War, the secretary of which is Frederick Libby of Washington, but they have many others and they have some worthwhile magazines: Current History, which is familiar to us all, the World To-morrow, Foreign Affairs, and The Nation, which to some extent devotes itself to international affairs. In Canada we are particularly lacking in an organization that has for its object the promoting of peace through educational methods. We have almost nothing at all. There are the League of Nations' associations. There are three sections, I think, of the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, and I am afraid that is about all. It is true that the Women's Christian Temperance Union, feeling I suppose that temperance was for the moment a lost cause, have to a great extent taken up this work of peace. There are no others that I know' of. We have absolutely no magazine, except one published by the League of Nations in this city, that has for its object the promoting of peace through education.


Mr. HEAPS:: There are labour papers.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Yes, there are labour
papers and farm journals, but they do not exist for that object alone. I think we will all admit, too, that the Rhodes scholarships did very much for the welding together of the different parts of the empire, and what the Rhodes scholarships did for the British commonwealth I believe that international scholarships would do for the world. Of course, we could not do it by ourselves alone, but if all the nations made a practice of

Questions
instituting scholarships such as I am now speaking of, I believe it would do much to weld the world together on the best possible basis, the basis of knowledge and goodwill.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, March 6, 1930