1920-03-10

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Messieurs:
Ballantyne,
Burnham,
Chabot,
Devlin,
jElkin,
Foster (Sir George), Hocken,
Ka/,
Lemieux,
McKenzie,
McLeod,
Marcil (Bonaventure) Munson, and Richardson.-14.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Five Members.
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No. 13. ON THE LIBRARY.
Messieurs:
Andrews,
Boland,
Borden (Sir Robert), Boyer,
Chaplin,
Clark (Red Deer), Cooper,
Cronyn,
Cro thers,
Drayton (Sir Henry), Foster (Sir George),
Harold,
King,
Lapointe,
Lemieux,
Meighen,
Myers,
Pardee, Rowell, Sheard, and Whidden.-21.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Reid the report was concurred in.

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On motion of Rt. Hon. Sir George Foster (Acting Prime Minister), Messieurs Andrews, Beland, Borden (Sir Robert), Boyer,
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Chaplin, Clark (Red Deer), Cooper, Cronyn, Crothers, Drayton (Sir Henry), Foster (Sir George), Harold, King, Lapointe, Lemieux, Meighen, Myers, Pardee, Rowell, Sheard, and Whidden, were appointed a committee to assist his honour the Speaker in the direction of the Library of Parliament, so far as the interests of the House of Commons are concerned.

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On motion of Sir George Foster the Select Standing Committees of the House were severally empowered to examine and inquire into all such matters and things as may be referred to them by the House, and to report from time to time their observations and opinions thereon, with power to send for persons, papers and records, with the exception of the Committees on Debates and the Library of Parliament.


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Hon. C. C. BALLANTYNE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) tabled Admiral Viscount Jellicoe's Report to the Government on the Naval Defence of Canada.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Mr. JACQUES BUREAU:: Are there any recommendations?



REPORTS AND PAPERS TABLED.

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Rules and Orders of the Exchequer Court of Canada; Report of the Secretary of State ; Rules of the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia under the Controverted Elections Act.-Hon. Mr. Sifton.
Annual report of the Department of thfT Interior; Report showing the number of permits to take intoxicating liquor into the Northwest Territories for the year ended 31st December, 1919.-Hon. Mr. Meighen.
Report of the Department of Public Works.-Hon. Mr. Reid.


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Bill No. 7, an Act to incorporate The T. Eaton General Insurance Company.-Mr. Mowat.
Bill No. 8, an Act to incorporate The T. Eaton Life Assurance Company. - Mr. Mowat.
Bill No. 9, an Act to incorporate Scottish Canadian Assurance Corporation. - Mr. Mowat.
[Sir George Foster.}
Bill No. 10, an Act respecting The Trust and Loan Company of Canada.

Mr. Cronyn.

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Mr. JOHN W. EDWARDS (Frontenac) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 11 to amend the Criminal Code (Capital Punishment).
Mr. CASGRAIN:: Explain.


Mr. EDWARDS:: In one sentence, Mr. Speaker, the object and purpose of the Bill is that in all cases where persons convicted of murder have been sentenced by the Courts to be hanged, such persons, instead of being conveyed from the court room to the gaol of the county in which the y;rime was -committed, shall be conveyed to the penitentiary of the district or province, to remain there in confinement until the date for their execution, which execution will take place within the walls of the penitentiary.


Jacques Bureau: What improvement on the present system will my hon. friend accomplish by getting the execution carried out in the penitentiary? .


William Cameron Edwards: I think it will be a
very great improvement on the present system.


Hon. Mr. FIELDING:: Does the hon.
gentleman propose to adopt electrocution, or is the present method of execution to be adhered ?o.


William Cameron Edwards: The Bill itself does not propose to make any change in the method of -carrying out the death sentence, but I -may say very frankly that my purpose in introducing the Bill was to make possible a change along that line.


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

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(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

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^ Mr. SINCLAIR (Antigonish and Guys-borough):
1.	Who is Colonel John A. Cooper, who according to an interview purporting to have been griven by him to the Boston Globe, claims that he is the first representative the Canadian Government has ever sent to a foreign country?
2.	Did he at any time represent the Canadian Government?
3.	Does he now represent the Canadian Government?
4.	If so, where, and what is his status?
Hon. N. W. ROWELL:: 1.	The Government have no knowledge of the newspaper interview referred to, nor what was said thereat.
2,	3, and 4. On the 17th July, 1919, an Order in Council was passed appointing Lt.-Colonel John A. Cooper, of Toronto, Director of the Canadian News Service at New York. It was provided that this /Office should be under the supervision of the Canadian War Mission at Washington. Colonel Cooper still fills this office,' and his status is as described in the Order in Council.


PAPER CURRENCY.
Mr. SINCLAIR (Antigonish and Guys-borough) :: 1.	Is it the intention of the Government to restore the law making- bank notes redeemable in gold?
2.	What has been the total increase in paper currency, (a) since 1911, and (b) since 1914?


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 1.	' At the first practical opportunity, due regard being had to the interests of the country.
2.
-	Dec. 31, 1911.	Dee. 31, 1914.	Dec. 31, 1919.Bank Notes in circulation	
Dominion Notes in cir-	. $ 102,037,305 115,149,749	$ 105,969,755 162,395,231	$ 232,486,734 318,690,089Less	217,187,054	268,364,986	551,176,823Dominion notes deposited in Central Gold Reserve by chartered banks against which the Banks issued their own notes	3,450,000	115,300,000
Total notes in circul-	217,187,054	264,914,986	435,876,823


NAVAL POLICY.
*Hon. Mr. MURPHY (Russell):: 1.	Has the attention of the Government been directed to a despatch from the special correspondent in Canada of the London Daily Telegraph, which was published by that paper on December 22, 1919, and reprinted by the Empire Parliamentary Association, and in which the following paragraph occurs:-
" So far as relations with the Empire are concerned, the most important matter that will be considered at the beginning of the next session will be the submission to Parliament of the Naval Policy of the Government, as a result of the advice which is being tendered by Lord Jellicoe. The Government have already determined that the ships they are to build
shall be the last word in efficient naval construction."
2.	Is it true, as stated in the despatch that " the Government have already determined " to build ships as part of their naval policy?
3.	If so, when was such determination reached, and when will the details be given to Parliament?


Hon. C. C. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	The attention of the Government has not' previously been called to this despatch.
2 and 3. Admiral Viscount Jellicoe's report on the Naval Defence of Canada is at present under consideration of the Government. The Government will give due notice of any policy-decided upon.


THE NATIONAL DEBT.
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*Hon. Mr. MURPHY (Russell)
1.	Referring to the Government's announcement that Canada's net debt on January 31, 1920, was slightly over $1,900,000,000, and that the increase of $62,000,000 shown in the said debt for the month 'of January last was the' result of " Closing up and adjusting Overseas Accounts."
Was such increase $62,000,000 due to the payment of claims made by the British Government for extra remuneration on account of maintenance of the Canadian Corps in the field during the later period of the war, and to the payment of certain other claims made by the said Government for the cost of the artillery ammunition used by the said Canadian Corps."
2.	What are the particulars of the said increase of $62,000,000 in the said debt?
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: /
1 and 2. The total increase of debt for the month of January, 1920, was $62,015,109.67 made up, as follows,-
Ordinary Receipts for January	 $34,295,988.64
Ordinary Payments for January	 3,073,829.48
Surplus Consolidated Fund ..	164,624.51
Other Expenditure-
Capital Expenditure for January	 3,073,829.48
War Expenditure for January*	:	 43,800,000.00
Demobilization Expenditure, v
ary	- . 15,305,904.70

is based on total number and calibre of Canadian gun's in France during that period and this amount was then divided by the number of "Man Days" charged in the bill for maintenance. The account was audited on London personally by the Auditor General for Canada assisted by Col. L. A. Dowie and D. M. McClelland, C.A.


VATICAN MISSION.
*Hon. Mr. MURPHY (Russell):: 1.	Is the Government aware that in reply to a question in the British House of Commons, the following answer was given on February 16, 1920?
" No decision has yet been taken regarding a mission to the Vatican, as some of the Dominion's have not yet replied to the invitation to give their views on the matter.''
2.	Was the Government invited to give its views on the matter referred to?
3.	If so, when was such invitation received?
4.	Has the Government replied to such invitation? If so, on what date?
5.	What was the Government's reply?


Hon. Mr. ROWELL:: 1.	No.
2.	Yes.
3.	17th October, 1919.
4.	Yes, on the 6tfa December, 1919.
5.	That they had not sufficient information to 'justify them in offering advice as to the usefulness of continuing representation at the Vatican.


ELECTORAL LISTS.
Mr. PARENT (Quebec West):: 1.	What total sum was paid for the preparation of electoral lists in connection with the recent partial elections held in the Counties of Quebec East, Glengarry, Assiniboia and Carleton, stating separately the figures for each of these counties?
2.	What amount was claimed from different sources in connection with the preparation of said lists?


Hon. A. L. SIFTON:: 1.	Payments-
Glengarry and Stormont	 3,277.78
Quebec East	 3,132.26
Victoria and Carleton	 2,417.16
Assiniboia	 3,716.46
2.	Claims-
Glengarry and Stormont:
Enumerators	 2,436.19
Registrars and Expenses	 402.58
Revising Officers and Expenses. 278.18 Printing and Advertising	 416.60
3,533.55
Quebec East:
Registrars and Expenses	 2,655.89
Revising Officer and Expenses. 616.83 Printing and Advertising	 2,509.25
5,781.97
Victoria and Carleton:
Enumerators	 1,998.68
Registrars and Expenses	 292.56
Revising Officer and Expenses. 211.05 Printing and Advertising	 113.50
2,615.79
Assiniboia:
Enumerators	 3,828.49
Registrar and Expenses	 64.00
Revising Officer and Expenses. 78.00 Printing and Advertising	 72.00
4,043.29


WAR EXPENDITURE,
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* Mr. E. B. DEVLIN (Wright):
1.	What amount, if any, is or was due by Germany by way of war expenditure?
2.	How much, if any, has been refunded to Canada?
Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: I take it that
question No. 1 refers to what is due by Germany to Canada?
_ Mr. DEVLIN: Yes.


George Green Foster: Then the answer to that question is, that no amount has been ascertained or determined.
The second question of course is answered by No. 1.


Mr. DEVLIN (Wright):: 1.	What amount, if any, is or was due by the British Government to the Government of Canada for advances of munitions and other war material?
2.	How much, if any, of same has been paid?


Henry Lumley Drayton: 1 and 2. Total advances to Imperial Government to March I, 1920 for munitions and other war material only, $654,900,000. Total repayments to same date, $441,715,560.84. The balance as shown by the above is in excess of the actual amount due the Dominion Government .by the Imperial Government on the same date. This is due to advances made by Great Britain to Canada in London for war purposes, which advances are not allocated to any particular credit in the books of the Finance Department.


ADMIRAL JELLICOE'S VISIT.
Mr. DEVLIN (Wright):: 1.	Did Admiral Jellicoe visit Canada recently?
2.	If so, had he any communication of an official character (with the [Government of Canada?
3.	Was his visit upon an official invitation of the Canadian Government?
4.	If not upon such invitation, what was the purpose of his coming, by whom was he sent, and what was the result of his visit?


Hon. C. C. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	His visit was part of an official tour to the British Dominions as a result of a request from the combined Dominions Governments to have an experienced naval officer investigate questions of naval defence in the Dominions.
4.	Answered by No. 3.	.


NEW PARLIAMENT BUILDING.
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* Hon. Mr. MURPHY (Russell):
.
1.	What has been the cost of the new Parliament Building to date?
2.	If the expenditure on' the said building exceeds the amount upon which the contractors are to be paid a percentage under their original contract, how, and at what rate, are they to be paid for work done in excess of such amount?
3.	Are the architects for the said building to be paid any commission if the cost of the said building exceeds the sum of $5,000,000?
4.	If not, how are the architects to be remunerated for work done in excess of the said sum of $5,000,000?
Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	$6,954,116.15 to 28th February, 1920.
2.	The contractor is to receive eight per cent on the total cost of the building, dating from February 3, 1916, up to the amount of four million dollars, and seven per cent on the cost in excess of that amount up to the further sum of one million dollars, it being understood and agreed that the contractor is not to receive any commission on the cost in excess of five million dollars, said cost to be exclusive of the architect's and contractor's commissions, and the cost of structural steel.
3	and 4. The architects receive a fee of five and one-half per cent on the total cost of the work of reconstructing the Parliament Buildings exclusive of the percentage paid Messrs. P. Lyall & Sons Construction Company, Limited; it being understood that the commission of five and one-half per cent is to apply to an amount not to exceed the sum of five million dollars.
* Hon. Mr. MURPHY (Russell):
1.	What are the names of the present members of the Parliamentary Committee which is alleged to have charge of the construction of the new Parliament Building?
2.	How many meetings of the said committee were held to discuss or decide details of construction during the last six months?
3.	Are minutes kept of the meetings of the said committee? If so, by whom?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	Hon. J. D. Reid, Acting Chairman; Hon. C. C. Ballantyne, Hon. J. A. Calder,
Hon. Sir James Lougheed, Hon. Robert Watson, Hon. G. D. Robertson
2.	Two, September 26 and December 4, 1919.
3.	Yes; by the Deputy Minister of Public Works.
* Hon. Mr. MURPHY (Russell):
1.	What are the names and addresses of the several Canadian companies that supplied various kinds of marble, stone and brick used in the construction of the new Parliament Building?
2.	What are the names and addresses of the several companies in the United States that supplied similar material for the said building?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	G. P. Sherwood & Co., Montreal; Howard Rock, Ottawa; Foran & Thibaull, Ottawa; Campbell, McKee & Williams, Bells Corners; Nepean Sandstone Quarries, Ottawa; W. J. George, Ottawa; Wallace Sandstone Quarries,. Montreal; Wright & Co., Incorporated, Hull; Megantic & Stan-stead Quarry Co., Limited, Montreal; John R. Hoidge, Toronto; Mariotti Marble Co., Montreal; Anglin-Norcross, Limited, Montreal; Sun Brick Company, Toronto; National Brick Co., Limited, Montreal; Dartnell, Limited, Montreal; Don Valley Brick Company, Toronto; Webster & Sons, Limited, Montreal; Montreal Terra Cotta Co., Montreal; National Fireproofing Co., Toionto; Brick Tile Supply Co., Ottawa; Barrett Bros., Ottawa; T. Sidney Kirby Company, Ottawa; Can. Custodis Chimney Co., Montreal.
2.	W. McMillan & Sons, Chicago, Ills.


CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION-APPOINTMENTS.
Mr. SINCLAIR (Antigonish and Guys-borougli):: How many appointments have been made by the Board of Civil Service Commissioners since the date of the armistice?


Hon. Mr. SIFTON:: Permanent appointments, 4,176; temporary assignments, 22,954. Of the latter many thousands are for short periods, often less than thirty days.


INTERNATIONAL FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Mr. DUFF:: 1.	When will the report and findings of the International Fisheries Commission be laid on the table of the House?
2.	When was the last meeting of the commission held, and where?
3.	Who are the Canadian members of said commission?
4.	What has been the total cost of said commission to Canada, and the amount paid to each member for salary or remuneration and expenses respectively?

5.	Did the said Canadian members agree to the placing of an embargo on live lobsters under 10 J inches, caught by Canadian fishermen in Canadian or international waters, whereby live lobsters under above mentioned size would not be allowed entrance into United States markets or ports?
6.	Were the Canadian commissioners or any of them consulted with regard to the clauses of Bill No. 4871, which was later introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives?
7.	Did they give their approval to clause 2 of said Bill, which was to prohibit live lobsters under 101 inches from being exported from Canada to the United States, either at a meeting of the commission held in the rooms of the Chamber of Commerce, Boston, or at a meeting held in Ottawa, in 1918?
8.	Has the said International Commission ceased to function? If not, why not?


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	This matter is under consideration with the United States Government.
2.	September 6, 1918, at Lake Champlain, N.Y.
3.	Sir J. Douglas Hazen, K.C.M.G., G. J. Desbarats, Esq., C.M.G., Wm. A. Found, Esq.
4.	$5,593.49. Sir J. Douglas Hazen, $1,436 expenses; G. J. Desbarats, $1,193.59 expenses; Wm. A. Found, $1,699.73 expenses. None of the members received any remuneration.
5.	No.
6.	No.
7.	No.
8.	Yes.


SS. &quot;STANLEY.&quot;
Mr. DUFF:: 1.	Does the Government own a steamer named the "Stanley"?
2.	If so, when did she last undergo overhauling and repairs?
3.	Have said repairs been completed, and what were the nature of said repairs?
4.	What did said repairs cost?
5.	How long was the ship out of commission,
giving dates?	i


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	At present under repair.
3.	No; general overhaul of the hull, boilers and machinery, including removal and refitting of certain shell plating, renewal of defective double bottom tank tops under boilers. General overhaul of the main and auxiliary machinery and boilers, overhaul of underwater fittings, also overhaul of the electric light installation including the rewiring of the ship.
4.	Amounts of contracts let, $23,907.85.
5.	Decerilber 12; still under repair.


SS. &quot;CANADIAN RECRUIT.&quot;
Mr. DUFF:: 1.	Does the Government own a steamer named the "Canadian Recruit"?
2.	If so, what is her gross, net and deadweight tonnage?
3.	What did she cost ready for sea?
4.	Where is the said steamer at the present time?
5.	What amount of insurance is carried on the said steamer's hull?
6.	What is the said steamer's valuation as appears in her hull policies?
7.	What insurance is carried on said steamer's freight?
8.	Whilst vessel is in her present position and condition are the Government's interests being properly protected? If so, how?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Gross tonnage, 2,409; net tonnage, 1,451; deadweight, 3,964.
3.	$813,252.
4.	Stranded on Vache Reef in the St. Lawrence at the mouth of the Saguenay.
5.	Insurance on hull, $578,571; other insurance, $231,429; total insurance on vessel, $810,000.
6.	$578,571.
7.	Freight charges are prepaid, and not insured. Cargo is at shipper's risk, and each cargo owner carries at discretion his own insurance.
8.	Yes. Notice of abandonment has been "Tendered to the underwriters. Necessary steps to prevent further damage have been taken by underwriters' representatives.


SHIPMENTS OP GOODS TO ROUMANIA THROUGH AMERICAN PORTS.
Mr. DUFF:: 1.	Are Canadian goods, purchased by Roumanians on the credit of the twenty-five million dollars established by the Government, and destined for Roumania, still being shipped through an American port?
2.	If so, why does, not the Government insist that such goods, destined for Roumania, be forwarded through a Canadian port?
3.	Will the Government give this important matter its most serious consideration?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	Canadian goods destined to Roumania, having been purchased by that country on the credit of the $25,000,000 advanced by the Government, are not being shipped through an American port. Of a total of over 36,000 tons shipped, some two thousand odd have been shipped through an American port, owing to their being small lots which were wanted quickly and for the shipment of which no boat was at the time available at a Canadian port.
2.	Answered by No. 1.

3.	It will not be necessary, therefore, that the Government give serious consideration to the matter.


CHARLOTTETOWN HATCHERY.
Mr. DUFF:: 1.	Has the hatchery at Charlottetown, P.E.I., been sold?
2.	If so, were tenders asked for?
3.	Who were the persons submitting tenders and what were the amounts of said tenders?
4.	Was the Inspector of Fisheries at Charlottetown afterwards instructed by the Department of Naval Service to endeavour to procure other offers?
5.	If so, from whom did he receive offers, and what were the amounts?
6.	On what date did the competition close?
1.	Whose offer or tender was accepted?
S.	Did the person whose tender was accepted make his offer to the inspector at Charlottetown or direct to the department at Ottawa by telegraph?
9.	On what date did the department receive the said tender, what was the amount of said tender, and on what date was the said tender accepted by the department?


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	Yes. [DOT]
2.	Tenders were called for by advertisement published in the press and by poster.
3.	'Edmund T. Higgs, Charlottetown, P.E.I. $460 for land, buildings and plant; $320 for land and buildings; $200 for buildings only.
4.	All tenders received were rejected as unsatisfactory, and the Inspector of Fisheries was instructed to endeavour to obtain further offers, for the buildings and plant only, as no land was involved.
5.	W. E. Agnew, Charlottetown, $645 for the building and plant; E. T. Higgs, Charlottetown, $550 for the building, machinery and plant; J. J. Hughes, Charlottetown, $350 for the plant and equipment.
6.	On February 2, when satisfactory offer was accepted.
7.	W. J. McMillan, Charlottetown.
8.	Mr. McMillan telegraphed the department confirming offer made to the Inspector of Fisheries.
9.	January 28, 1920, $700; February 2, 1920.


INTEREST ON AMERICAN LOANS.
Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	How much interest was paid on American loans during the year 1919?
2.	How much was the exchange on said interest?


Henry Lumley Drayton: ,
1.	The Dominion Government paid interest on loans floated in the United States for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1919, $7,543,550.
2.	The various amounts making the above total were paid out of the account of the Dominion Government with the agency of the Bank of Montreal, New York, and the question of exchange did not arise.


EXPORTS OF WHEAT TO UNITED STATES.
Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	How many bushels of wheat were exported from Canada into the United States during the year 1919?
2.	How many bushels were exported to-Europe during the same year?
3.	How many bushels were exported during the year 1919 through the ports of St. John, N.B., Halifax, N.S., Quebec, Montreal, and Vancouver?
4.	How many bushels were exported through the United States?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	6,137,643 bushels.
2.	61,723,631 bushels.
3.	St. John, N. B., 10,248,286 bushels; Halifax, N.S., 2,685,844 bushels; Quebec, P.Q., 2,312,910 bushels; Montreal, P.Q., 26,385,818 bushels; Vancouver, B.C., 50,012 bushels.
4.	20,040,960 bushels.


INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-PENSIONS.
Mr. FOURNIER:: 1.	Is the Honourable Minister of Railways and Canals aware that the present rates of pension respecting the minimum and maximum amounts granted to superannuated employees of the Intercolonial railway between Montreal and Halifax, are based upon salaries paid many years ago when cost of living was much lower than at present?
2. Is it the intention of the Honourable Minister to take favourable action upon the many requests, applications and petitions from the superannuated employees of said road for an increase-of pension?
3.	Has this question of an increase of pension been studied with the president of the Canadian National Railway system?
4. Is it the intention of the Honourable Minister to settle it during the present session?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Matter is being given consideration.
3.	Yes. The matter is under consideration
by the Canadian National Railways' management.	-
4.	In view of the Grand Trunk Railway being' acquired by the Government, it is thought desirable that any pension scheme should not be conclvfded until all Government-owned and controlled railways are coordinated under one management.


EXPORT OP HIDES TO UNITED STATES
Mr. FOURNIER:: 1.	Has an Ord'er in Council been passed by the Government preventing the exportation of hides to the United States?

2.	If so, on -what date was that Order in Council passed?
3.	Since the passing of that order, how many manufacturers or exporters have obtained permits to ship hides to the United States?
4.	What are the names of these favoured manufacturers and exporters of hides?
5.	Under these special permits, how many carloads of hides have they exported up to date?


George Green Foster: An Order in
Council was passed by the Government prohibiting the export of hides without a license. Licenses, however, have been granted in every case where application has been made. The bringing the matter under license enabled the department to obtain statistics relating to the general trend of the trade and provided it with information which would have been necessary had it been deemed advisable to restrict importation.


ALIENS IN DETENTION CAMPS.
*Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	What has become of all the aliens or enemy subjects held in the various detention camps in Canada by the Federal Government since the outbreak of the war?
2.	What measure has been adopted by the Government to deal with them since the war is over?


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	All prisoners of war who have not been repatriated have been released in Canada.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


BUSINESS .PROFITS WAR TAX.
Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Is it the intention of the Government to reenact the Excess Business Profit War Tax for the ensuing year?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Information
with regard to taxation policy will be announced in the Budget Speech of the Minister of Finance.


BILINGUAL STAMPS.
*Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Is it the intention of the Government to issue bilingual stamps in the future?
2.	If so, when?
3.	If not, why?
4.	Is it the intention of the Government to issue bilingual coins and paper money in the future?
5.	If so, when?
6.	If not, why?


George Green Foster: No departure from the present practice is contemplated.
iSiS. "CHAMPLAIN."


*Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Has the Government disposed of the steamer "Champlain?"
2.	If so, why?
3.	What price was realized by said sale?

4.	Is it the intention of the Government to buy or construct another steamer to replace the "Champlain?"
5.	If so, when?
6.	If not, why?
7.	Is there any steamer at present replacing the "Champlain" along the route Murray Bay Tadousac?


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	No, but intends doing so.
2.	No further use for her.
3.	$61,050.
4.	No.
5.	Answered by No. 4.
6.	No necessity for replacing -her.
7.	The "Champlain" is still at Murray Bay.


LORD JELLICOE'S VISIT TO CANADA.
*Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	By whom was Lord Jellicoe asked to come to Canada?
2.	What was the result of his visit to Canada?
3.	Has the Government any naval legislation to submit to this House this session?
4.	If so, when is it to be submitted?


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: '
1.	The Admiralty were requested by the Dominions Governments to send an experienced naval officer to investigate questions of Naval Defence for British Dominions, and Lord Jellicoe was chosen by the Imperial authorities.
2.	He submitted a report to the Dominion Government containing his recommendations.
3.	The Government will give due advice of any legislation contemplated.
4.	Answered by No. 3.


SHIPBUILDING CONTRACTS.
Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: 1.	How many contracts for shipbuilding were given by the Government since the 1st of January, 1918?
2.	To what firms were said contracts given and what were the respective amounts?
3.	Were all of said contracts given after proper tender?
4.	If so, were they given to the lowest tenderer ?
5.	If not, why?


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	Fifty-six contracts.
2.	Canadian Vickers, Ltd., Montreal, P.Q., 12; Collingwood Shipbuilding Co. Ltd., Col-lingwood, Ont., 7; Wallace Shipyards Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., 4; Tidewater Shipbuilders, Ltd., Three Rivers, P.Q., 4; Davie Shipbuilding and Repairing Co., Ltd., Lauzon, Levis, P.Q., 3; Port Arthur Shipbuilding Co., Ltd., Port Arthur, Ont., 7; Halifax Shipyards, Ltd., Halifax, N.S., 4; Victoria.

Machinery Depot Co., Ltd., Victoria, B.C.,
2; J. Coughlan & Sons, Vancouver, B.C., 4;
N. S. Steel & Coal Co., New Glasgow, N.S.,
2; Prince Rupert Dry Dock & Engineering Co., Ltd., Prince Rupert, B.C., 2; Br. American Shipbuilding Co., Ltd., Welland, Ont., 2; Dom. Shipbuilding Co., Ltd., Toronto, Ont., 2; Midland Shipbuilding Co., Midland, Ont., 1.
3.	Contracts were placed after offers had been received from the several yards and prices and other details agreed upon.
4.	Answered by No. 3.
5.	Answered by No. 3.


RIVIERE-DU-LOUP WORKSHOPS.
Mr. GAUVREAU:: 1.	What quantity of machinery was taken away from the C.N.R. workshops at Rivi&re-du-Loup and transported to St. Malo, up to March 1, 1920?
2.	How many employees were transferred from the said workshops at St. Malo?
3.	How many machines and employees does the C.N.R. Commission propose to take away from RiviSre-du-Loup to use at St. Malo?
4.	Is it the intention of the Department of Railways to stop the alleged destruction of property of the RiviSre-du-Loup workshops?


Hon. Mr. REID:: 1.	Nineteen machines.
2.	Sixty employees.
3.	Total of 90 employees and 19 machines. Transfer to the latter has been completed.
[DOT] 4. There has been no destruction of property at Riviere du Loup and it is not the intention to transfer any additional machinery.


CANADIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCE- STATISTICS.
Mr. DEMERS:: Are the reports prepared by British statisticians, fixing Canada's contributions in the Great War to the number of 640,648 men, considered accurate by the Canadian Government?


Hon. Mr. GUTHRIE:: Until all the
documents from which complete and authentic statistics can be compiled have been returned from overseas and properly allocated, no figures can be verified or considered accurate, but have to be accepted as the nearest possible estimate obtainable from sources through the medium of cable or telegraph, and, as such, are liable to amendment.
So far as is ascertainable from such tele-'-graphic reports, there were:
(a)	Grand total recruited in Canada for Canadian Expeditionary Force during the war up to 31st December, 1918, (exclusive of those enlisted for Naval Service, Royal Air Force, Imperial Mechanical Transport,
Inland Water Transport, and exclusive of British and Allied reservists) 591,472; (b) Enlisted in England up to 31st December, 1918, 1,733;'(cl Enlisted in Canada for overseas service other than Canadian Expeditionary Force, 21,169; (d) British and Allied Reservists (exclusive of (c)), 14,590. Total, 628,964.


NEWSPRINT CONTROLLER.
Marie Joseph Demers: For what reason did Mr. R. A. Pringle, K.C., Controller of Newsprint Paper, resign?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Pringle in his letter of resignation made the following statement:
I am afraid I will have to ask you to relieve me from the distribution of newsprint. I may say that for the last two or three months the matter has been most troublesome and has been taking my whole time. Some of the manufacturers, as you are aware, are refusing to comply with my orders, which will necessitate drastic action being taken. My staff is limited and the work is becoming very burdensome. You have other departments of the Government under which this distribution could probably be better carried on, and orders enforced."


FARMERS' ACCOUNT BQOK.
Mr. DEMERS:: 1.	When was the " Farmers' Accountant Book" printed by the Government?
2.	Has the French' edition of the said book been printed? If so, when?


Hon. Mr. SIFTON:: 1.	The Farmer's Account Book was printed in 1918.
2.	A French edition of 2,000 copies has
been printed, and delivered January 13 1920.	'
Another 3,000 copies are now being printed at the Printing Bureau, and will be delivered in due course.


&quot;TI-NOIR&quot; DESJARDINS.
Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: 1.	Is the Government aware that " Ti-noir '' Desjardins was arrested in the city of Hull, Canada, for murder, a month ago, and that he has been temporarily given his freedom while awaiting his trial?
2.	Has the Government furnished bail in this case as it did at Montreal when the said "Ti-noir" Desjardins was arrested for conspiracy?


Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


VANCOUVER DRYDOCK.
Mr. DEMERS:: 1.	Is it true that a subsidy contract for the construction of a drydock at Vancouver was awarded? If so, to whom?
2.	What is the amount of that contract?
3.	What is the percentage subsidy?
4.	Were there any competitors for the subsidy?
5.	If so, who were they and what were their tenders?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1. (a) Yes; (b) Coughlan & Sons, Limited.
2 and 3. The dock is to be of the second class and the maximum amount on which a subsidy of 4| per cent is to be paid annually for thirty-five years is $2,500,000.
4	and 5. Under the Dry Dock Subsidies Act, applications were received from the following Companies who offered to build a dock at Vancouver:
Coughlan & Sons, Ltd., Second class dock; Davidson & Cameron, First class dock; Wallace Shipyards, Second class floating dock; Raymond Concrete Pile Co., Second class drydock. The maximum amount on which subsidy is payable at 4J per cent for 35 years in the case of first class docks is $5,500,000.


QUEBEC MARINE STOREHOUSE.
Mr. POWER:: .
1.	Were any repairs made to the Marine Storehouse, Quebec, during 1919?
2.	If so, how much was expended for that purpose?
3.	Were tenders called for?
4.	If so, who was the successful tenderer?
5.	Was his price the lowest offered?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	Yes; roof arid floors put on portion destroyed by fire.
2.	$9,480.35.
3.	Yes.
4.	L. H. Peters, Limited.
5.	Yes, by over $4,700.


BULGARIAN PEACE TREATY-CANADA S REPRESENTATIVES.
Marie Joseph Demers: Who were the Canadian representatives during the course of negotiations when the treaty of peace with Bulgaria was signed, and who signed the said treaty on the part of Canada?


Hon. Mr. ROWELL:: The general provisions of the Bulgarian Treaty are similar to those embodied in the Treaty with Germany and were settled when the Prime Minister and his colleagues were in Paris last year. The territorial readjustments and the application of these general provisions

to Bulgaria were also considered at that time, and the Prime Minister was ViceChairman of the Commission on the Greek claims, consideration of which involved the Balkan territorial settlement in' some of its most important aspects. The Treaty was signed by Sir George Perley, as plenipotentiary on behalf of Canada appointed by His Majesty on the advice of His Majesty's Canadian advisers.


LEAGUE OF NATIONS-CANADA'S CONTRIBUTION.
Mr. DEMERS:: 1.	Has the question of Canada's contribution towards the maintenance of the League of Nations been considered by the Government?
2.	Is it a fact that Canada's share of the necessary expenditure for the maintenance of the said League will be as considerable as that of England and more considerable than that of Belgium and several other independent countries which are members of the League?
3.	Has Canada's contribution for the said expenditure been fixed? If so, what is the proportion?


Hon. Mr. ROWELL:: 1.	The basis of Canada's contribution is
settled by Article 6 of the Treaty ot Peace which is as follows:	.
"The expenses of the Secretariat shall be borne by the members of the League in accordance with the apportionment of the expenses of the International Bureau of the Universal Postal Union."
2.	Canada is one of the countries in the "first class" under the International Bureau of the Universal Postal Union and therefore contributes the same amount as all other members in the "first class." The following are the members of the first class: Germany, Austria, United States of America, France, Great Britain, Hungary, British India, Commonwealth of Australia, Canada, the British Colonies and Protectorates of South Africa, the whole of the other British Colonies and Protectorates, Italy, Japan, Russia, Tux-key.
3.	In conformity with Article 6 of the
treaty with Germany, Canada's contribution is fixed on the basis of the apportionment of the expenses of the International Bureau of the Universal Postal Union, but the actual amount which Canada may be called upon to contribute must necessarily depend upon the number and classification of the states which become members of the League of Nations. Canada's contribution for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1920, was fixed at 116,234 which at the current rate of exchange on February 13, the date on which the draft was sent to London, amounted to $64,043.15.	.


ICE-BREAKERS IN ST. LAWRENCE.
Mr. DELISLE:: 1.	Is the Government awqre that there is an insufficient number of ice-breakers operating in the St. Lawrence?
2.	If so, does the Government propose to order the construction of new ice-breakers, how many, and of what type?
3.	If the Government has not been made aware of such a condition, is it the intention to order the construction of one or several of such ice-breakers ?


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	The only ice-breaker operating in the St. Lawrence river at present is the C.G.S. "Lady Grey."
2.	Under consideration.
3.	Under consideration.


DR. MICHEL FISET.
Mr. LAVIGUEUR:: 1.	In what capacity is Dr. Michel Fiset employed as a public officer?
2.	When and by whom was he appointed in his present public charge?
3.	Has he submitted a report to the Government? If so, when, and to whom?
4.	Has he an office in Quebec City? If so, where is it located?
5.	What pay or salary 'does the said Dr. Michel Fiset receive?


Hon. Mr. ROWELL:: 1.	Parcel post supervisor.
2.	Appointed by Order in Council, dated April 18, 1914.
3.	Not to the knowledge of the department.
4.	No office supplied by this department.
5.	$2,800 a year.
RIVER BATISCAN BRIDGE/


Mr. DESAULNIERS:: 1 Referring to an Order of the House issued on the 12th of May, 1919, for a copy of all reports, letters, memoranda, telegrams, plans and estimates and relating to the construction of a bridge on the River Batiscan, in the parish of St. Francis Xavier de Batiscan, in the county of Champlain, has the request contained in said Order of the House been carried out? If not, why?
2.	Is it the intention of the Government to lay the said papers on the table of the House in the early part of the present session?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	When an Order of the House was issued on May 12, 1919, there were no reports, letters, etc., on file relating to the construction of a bridge on the River Batiscan, and notification was given the Secretary of State to that effect, but since that date, plans have been submitted and there has been some correspondence.
2.	Yes, when application is made.


THE ELECTORAL ATLAS.
Mr. HOCKEN:: 1.	What was the cost of the mechanical work, including the paper used, in the publication of "The Electoral Atlas of the Dominion of
2.	What was the total cost of the work?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Cost of 4,000 copies, part bound and part in sheets: Lithographic work, $11,026.43; press work, $2,000; binding, $2,127.02; paper stock, $3,744.
2.	Grand total cost, $18,897.45.


CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEES.
Mr. HOCKEN:: 1.	How many employees are there in the Inside Service of the Customs Department?
2. How many are males?
3. How many are females?
4.	How many males are French?
5.	How many females are French?
6.	How many males are Protestants?
7.	How many females are Protestants?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: Customs	Inland
Service Revenue Service Total !	
226	37	2639	..	213	2S	3413'.!	
13	9	224	..	29	15	445!! -.. ..	1	1	26	
142	9	1517	
11	3	14


Jacques Bureau: Will the minister permit me a further question? With regard to the answers to questions 4 and 5, have these people been naturalized?


Martin Burrell: I will have to find
that out. Perhaps my hon. friend had better put that further question on the Order Paper.


STE-FAMILLE WHARF.
Mr. LAVIGUEUR:: 1.	Has the contract been awarded for the repairs of Ste-Famille wharf at the Island of Orleans, Quebec, in accordance with the tenders advertised for in the month of October, 1919, and is such contract based upon the estimates of cost which were voted by this House?
2.	If so, to whom was the contract awarded, and for what amount?
3.	Are the repairs under construction? If not, when will they be started, and for what reason have they been delayed?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1 and 2. No.
3.	No; tenders were called for, prices submitted considered too high. Matter is now under consideration.


ST.-JEAN WHARF.
Mr. LAVIGUEUR:: 1.	Have contractors Methot and Thibault, of Montmagny, Quebec, started work upon the re-?

pairs of the St.-Jean wharf at the Island' of Orleans, in accordance with the contract which was awarded to them in 1919?
2.	If so, on what date were the said repairs started, and when were they to be terminated, according to the terms of the contract?
3.	Have every necessary precautions been taken by the Department of Public Works to have said repairs terminated as promptly as possible owing to the urgency of such repairs?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	No.
2.	(a) Repairs not yet started; (b) 7th August, 1920.
3.	Yes.


LOANS TO FOREIGN COUNTRIES.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. DE-SAULNIERS:
1.	Has the Government advanced any loans to foreign countries during the Great War, or since the 11th of November, 1918?
2.	If so, to which countries, for what amount, and upon what terms?
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 
FREIGHT CAR SITUATION.
[Stage Direction]
*Mr. ARCHAMBAtJLT:
1.	How many cars belonging to Canadian railways are now in the United States?
2.	How many cars belonging to the United States railways are now in Canada?
Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	Up to March 1, 1920, the following Canadian railway cars were on American rail-*ways: Box cars, 42,347; auto cars, 3,502; refrigerator cars, 883; open top cars, 5,781; stock cars, 1,751; flat cars, 4,428; other cars, 1,024. Total, 59,716.
2.	Up to March 1, 1920, the followingUnited States railway cars were on Canadian lines: Box cars, 24,151; auto cars, 1,380; refrigerator cars, 1,388; open top cars, 11,934; stock cars, 187; flat cars, 1,454; other cars, 138. Totol, 40,632.


William Stevens Fielding: Does that mean the Canadian National Railways only, or all Canadian railways?


John Dowsley Reid: All railways in Canada.


INVERNESS RAILWAY.
Mr. CHISHOLM:: 1.	Has the Inverness railway been purchased
by the Government?	,
2.	If so, what was the price paid for the property?
3.	If not. did the Government make an effort to buy the road?
4.	What was the amount of such offer and to whom was it made?
5.	Did such party or parties to whom this offer was made express a willingness to accept such offer?
6.	If so. why did not the Government complete the negotiations and take the propetry over?
7.	Is it the intention of the Government to continue such negotiations or do they intend to expropriate the property?


Hon. J. D. REID:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Yes.
4.	The committee representing the bondholders urged that the Government take over the railway as a feeder for the Canadian National Railway system, the transfer to be made on a basis similar to that on which certain branch lines in New Brunswick had been taken over. That on this basis, it was agreed that the price be $150,000 for 60.91 miles of railway, and 4.6 miles of siding, exclusive of the company's pier at
Port Hastings; the rolling stock and equipment of the line to be paid for on a price to be agreed upon" between the committee and the Board of Directors of the Canadian National Railways, but such price not to exceed $175,000. Supplies on hand were to be taken over at a valuation to be made by the president of the Canadian National Railways.
5.	Yes.
6.	Negotiations are still pending and the Government hope to complete on the basis agreed to.
7.	Answered by No. 6.


CHARLEVOIX-MONTMORENCY LIGHTHOUSE KEEPERS.
Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	How many lighthouse keepers are there in the county of Charlevoix-Montmorency?
2.	What are their names?
3.	Where do they reside?
4.	When were they appointed?
5.	What are their actual salaries?
6.	Have salaries been increased since appointment?
7.	If not. why?
8.	If so. when, and to what extent?


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: 1.	Ten.
2.	Wilbrod Savard, Delphis Bouchard, Henri Audet, Hector Tremblay, Eucharest Pedneault, Polycarpe Cimon, Chas. Tremblay, Ferdinand Filion, Gaudiose Pare, Joseph Deblois.
3.	St. Simeon; at lightstation, (Cape Salmon) ; at lightstation, (Cap aux Oies); Les Eboulements, lie aux Coudres, Baie St. Paul, Baie St. Paul, at lightstation, (Cap Brule); Ste. Anne de Beaupre, Ste. Anne de Beaupre.
4.	Wilbrod Savard, June 1, 1919; D. Bouchard, May 1, 1916; H. Audet, Dec. 4, 1917; H. Tremblay, April 1, 1914; E. Pedneault, May 1, 1912; P. Cimon, July 13, 1912; C. Tremblay, April 1, 1916; F. Filion, March 15, 1912; G. Pare, July 8, 1912; J. Deblois. July 13, 1912.
5.	W. Savard, $105 per annum; D. Bouchard, $1,335 per annum; H. Audet, $475 per annum; H. Tremblay, $100 per annum; E. Pedneault, $100 per annum; P. Cimon, $120 per annum; C. Tremblay, $645 per annum; F. Filion, $820 per annum; G. Pare, $120 per annum; J. Deblois, $120 per annum.
6.	W. Savard, no; D. Bouchard, yes; H. Audet, yes; H. Tremblay, yes; E. Pedneault, yes; P. Cimon, yes; C. Tremblay, yes; F. Filion, yes; G. Pare, yes; J. Deblois, yes.
7.	W. Savard: less than one year of service.

8.	D. Bouchard: from $880, on appointment by annual increments to $955; by Order in Council 5th November, 1919, (P. C. 15/2229) to $1,335; H. Audet: from $345, on appointment by annual increments to $360, by Order in Council, 5th November, 1919, (P.C. 15/2229) to $475; H. Tremblay: from $80 an appointment by annual increments to $100; E. Pedneault: from $80 on appointment by annual increments to $100; P. Cimon: from $100 on appointment by annual increments to $120; C. Tremblay: from $320 on appointment by annual increments to $425, by Order in Council 5th November 1919, (P.C. 15/2229) to $645. (Station raised one class in the Classification of Lights by O.O. 7th October, 1919, (P.C. 632100); F. Filion: from $520 on appointment by annual increments to $600, by Order in Council 5thNovember, 1919, (P.C1. 15/2229) to $820; G. Pare: from $100 on appointment by annual increments to $120; J. Deblois: from $100 on appointment by annual increments to $120. Lightkeepers D. Bouchard and F. Filion benefited during the fiscal year 1918-19 by the extra temporary allowances provided for full time keepers to the extent of $180 and $120 per annum respectively.


POSTMASTER AT ASBESTOS.
Mr. TOBIN:: 1.	Who is the present postmaster at Asbestos, county of Richmond and Wolfe, province of Quebec?
2.	When was he appointed?
3.	Upon whose recommendation?
4.	If no postmaster has been appointed, has any one been recommended for the position?
5.	If so, who was recommended, and who made the recommendation?
6.	Did the former postmaster resign, or was he dismissed?


Hon. Mr. BOWELL:: There is no permanent postmaster for Asbestos at the present time; the late postmaster having died on the 17th December, 1919. The question of the appointment of his successor is now before the Civil Service Commission.


PARLIAMENT BUILDING DOOR CONTRACT.
Mr. TOBIN:: 1.	From whom did the contractors of the new Parliament Building purchase the doors which are used in the said building?
2.	Where and by whom were the said doors manufactured?
3.	What is the cost of each of the said doors?


John Dowsley Reid: 1 and 2. Henry Morgan & Co., who submitted the lowest tender. The doors were manufactured in Montreal.

3.	There are 38 types of door, and the average cost of each door with frame, jamb, transom, trim, etc., complete, is $72.20.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.

Mr. ETHIER:: 1.	How many conscripts have been sentenced by virtue of the Conscription Act?
2.	How many of these have been fined?
3.	How many have been sentenced to imprisonment ?
4.	How many have paid their fines?
5.	How many have served their sentence?
6.	In what district were said conscripts sentenced?
7.	What are their names, addresses and occupations?
8.	To whom were the fines paid?


Mr. FRIPP:: 1.	How many persons have been discharged from the Government Printing Bureau and Department of Public Printing and Stationery from 1st January, 1919, to 1st March, 1920?
2.	Upon whose recommendation and report were dismissals made?
3.	Did the King's Printer or Assistant King's Printer recommend the persons to be dismissed?
4.	Was the report of dismissal in writing?
5.	What qualifications had the person or.persons who investigated the respective cases for dismissal, what investigation was made by them, and are theil- conclusions reduced to writing?
*Mr. CAlSGRAIN:
1.	How many postmasters are there in the county of Charlevoix-Montmorency?
2.	What are their names?
3.	Where is their residence?
4.	When were they appointed?
5.	What is their actual salary?
6.	Was it ever increased since they were appointed?
7.	If not, why?
8.	If so, when, and to what extent?
*Mr. iCAiSGRAIN:
1.	How many mail carriers are there in the county of Charlevoix-Montmorency?
2.	What are their names?
3.	Where is their residence?
4.	When were they appointed?
5.	What is their actual salary?
6.	Was it ever increased since they were appointed?
7.	If not, why?
8.	If so, when, and to what extent?
-Mr. ARCHAMRAULT:
1.	What was the total amount of commission charges paid to brokers and agents in connection with the'last Victory Loan?
2.	What amounts have been paid to each of the said brokers and agents?
3.	Have any of the said commission charges not yet been paid?
4.	If so, whose accounts are they, and for what reason have they not been paid?


Mr. MACKIE:: 1. How many dismissals of civil servants have been made in the cities of the Dominion of Canada since the 1st of January, 1915?

2. How many appointments have taken place or have been made of civil servants in the cities of the Dominion of Canada since January, 1915?


Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	What amount of money has been expended by the Government during the years 1918-19-20 in providing seed grain for settlers in the Lethbridge and Calgary land districts respectively?
2.	What amount of money has been expended by the Government as its share of the freight charges in providing feed for live stock in Southern Alberta in the years 1918-19-20?
UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS. Mr. DEVLIN:
For a return showing the total amount of Canadian securities previously held in Great Britain, and sold to the United States, with the amount of interest now payable by this Dominion to the United States to replace amount formerly paid to Great Britain. Also a copy of all correspondence relating to this matter.


Mr. OASGRAIN:: 
Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: For a return giving a list of the lawyers from the province of Quebec who acted: (a) as [DOT]public representatives; (b) military representatives ; (c) in the office of the registrars ; and (d) in the office of the Central Appeal Judge, during the administration of the Military Service Act, showing the amount paid to each of the said lawyers.


Mr. SAVARD:: For a copy of all correspondence relating to the appointment of the Postmaster at Meta-betchouan, Quebec.


Edmond Savard: For a copy of all correspondence relating to the public cross-road between Ste.-Catherine and Tadousac.


Joseph Archambault: For a copy of the contract between the Government of Canada or the Canadian Wheat Board and Greece, for 12,000,000 bushels of wheat.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: For a copy of all telegrams, petitions, letters and documents of all kinds sent to the Post Office Department referring in any way to the mail route and mail service between Mabou, N..S., and Whycocomagh, N.S.



DOMINION MANUFACTURERS ASSOCIATION.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. EMMANUEL B. DEVLIN (Wright): moved:
For a copy of all correspondence between the Dominion Government or any member
thereof and the Dominion Manufacturers Association or any manufacturer, relating to appeals from the Supreme or other courts in regard to validity of certain Dominion or Provincial Acts and Provincial Licenses whereby the Dominion Government undertook to give financial aid to said manufacturers for said appeals, as shown in the Financial Times, Montreal, of the 21st February, 1920.
Hon. Mr. DOHERTY:: I have no objection to producing the papers if there are any, but I have a strong impression that there are none in reference to the subject matter of this motion.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. PIERRE FRANCOIS CASGRAIN
(Charlevoix-Montmorency) moved:
For a copy of all papers, documents, telegrams, correspondence, and report or reports, made, had or exchanged! between the Government of Canada and Lord Jellicoe.
Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Government has no correspondence nor documents in regard to Lord Jellicoe's visit to Canada.
Motion dropped.



HIGH COST OF NECESSARIES- FUEL, ETC.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. JOHN H. BURNHAM (Peterborough West) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, whereas the rise in the price of necessaries is leaving many of the people of Canada in a desperate condition, and whereas the fuel question has become an acute one in many parts of the country, it is desirable that the Government select a time for a full discussion of these matters to the end that the people may be protected and served arid' peace and order be continued.
He said: Mr. Speaker, those of the mem' bers who are accustomed to go to church- and I have no doubt that some of them-
Jacques Bureau: Why doubt?
iMr. BURNHAM: -will realize_that it is
necessary on the part of the speaker to speak to his text, and on the part of the congregation to give him some attention.


Jacques Bureau: That all depends on the speaker.
Mr. _ BURNHAM: While I am getting ready to descant on food and other necessaries which form the subject matter of this resolution, I will give hon. members something to think of on the fuel side of the [DOT]question which was very well comprised in a letter which I received to-day from a large structural steel company in Toronto, namely Messrs. McGregor and McIntyre, Limited, Mr. McIntyre being the writer of the letter, in which he says:



Dear Sir,-I have read with much interest your notice of motion in connection with the rise in price of necessaries, particularly in connection with the fuel question. May I, therefore, bring to your attention the action of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association in authorizing the appointment of a special committee, of whch the writer is a member? This committee is to investigate the possibilty of. using Canadian coal for the whole of Canada.
There are several phases of this fuel situation which I am sure need not be brought to your attention. However, you will recall the experience Canada had during the middle and latter period of the war, but more especially would I draw your attention to the serious coal miners' strike in the United States last year, which at one time promised to create a more serious situation for Canada than during any part of the war period. The conditions were so grave that even the United States Government did not appear to be fully in control of the situation; The special feature in this strike was that Canada had nothing whatever to say in adjusting the strike one way or tlie other, but particularly was Ontario solely dependent upon that part of the United States affected by the strike for our supply of coal.
You will also have noticed oh several occasions in the newspapers that a suggested threat was made since that time to retaliate provided Canada would not supply the United States to their satisfaction with pulp and paper.
I will not go further into the whole situation other than to quote an extract from the " Industrial News Survey," published by the National Industrial Conference Board, 15 Beacon street, Boston, Mass., for week ending March 1, 1920 :
" Wages and Hourse of Labour.-Anthracite miners' convention has voted to demand 60 per cent wage increase for contract miners and $2 a day increase, six-hour day and five-day week, for day-workers ; about 170,000 men are affected; present agreement dates from May, 1916, and expires March 31, 1920 ; supplemental agreements have adjusted wages to war conditions ; operators are to meet March 9 to discuss a new agreement."
This will at once bring very forcibly before the Canadian people the further seriousness of depending upon the United States for supply of coal. I will now try to outline in short what our committee hopes to accomplish:
As you, no doubt, are well aware of the enormous coal resources in Western Canada, particularly in the province of Alberta, where it is stated that twelve per cent of the supply of the known coal of the world is in that province, and also that every kind of coal necessary for the fuel supply of our country is to be had, from any kind of domestic to any kind of steam coal, including the very finest coking coal in the world. Also Nova Scotia has a supply; of this area I am not at all familiar.
I suppose he means, " With this area I am not at all familiar."
The solution of our fuel situation would appear to the writer to be a matter of transportation, and the Government now owns two transcontinental railways.
I will enclose a copy of a resolution passed by the Edmonton Board of Trade at a special meeting held to deal with the coal situation. As a result of their co-operation with our committee in Toronto, this resolution will give you an outline of what I think is most practicable.

May I, in closing, offer you the co-operation of our committee in any scheme that will assist in this section of your motion, also may I ask In return your co-operation with us in our scheme. Thanking you in advance,
Yours very truly,
R. L. McIntyre.
The resolution referred to in the letter is as follows:
Report of Coal Section of Edmonton Board of Trade or Chamber of Commerce on the matter of Coal Production in Alberta for use in the Province of Ontario.
Inasmuch as the Canadian Manufacturers' Association from their head office in Toronto and Montreal are considering the advisability of seeking coal supply from Western Canada, and have appointed a committee to investigate the resources, development and qualities of coal in Western Canada ; and the cost of transporting coal to the Province of Ontario giving as some of their reasons and objects, the following:-
1.	Whereas Ontario is not possessed of any coal deposits, and is therefore dependent upon a supply of Its fuel coming from a foreign country over which the Ontario consumers and the Government of Canada have no control; and,
Whereas the industrial life of Ontario is largely dependent upon the good will of the American people for its supply of coal; and,
Whereas there Is always the possibility of the United States being so situated that its whole supply of coal might be required to insure its own protection ; and
2.	Whereas the Government railways in Canada, particularly the Canadian National, and the Grand Trunk Pacific which apparently the Government contemplates operating, are nearly faced with heavy deficits which arise through lack of sufficient traffic to assure a profitable conduct of their business ; and
3.	Whereas the Province of Alberta is possessed of unlimited quantities of all varieties of coal suitable for Ontario's needs ; and,
i. Whereas Alberta is a large market for Ontario manufacturers, and that this market will best be maintained and consolidated through the correct methods of commerce being applied, namely, by selling to Ontario as well as buying from them; and
5.	Whereas Canada is largely indebted to the United States through the development of our own resources and industries, with the result that the time seems to be approaching when we will only be able to purchase from the United States for cash.
Therefore, it is in the best interest of Canada that the Dominion Government, and the Government of the Province of Alberta should cooperate to help bring about the desired condition of making Canada independent of any foreign country in its fuel supply, and thus retain for the development of Canada the means of exchange which comes about through using our own coal, and thus stimulating every branch of Industry through the good results which would follow, which may be summed up in a variety of ways:
First: Relieving Canada of a large portion of the annual deficit of the railways.
Second: The building up of an industry in the province of Alberta which would be a large consumer of Canadian made goods, and
Lastly: By having the foresight to assure a supply of fuel for all of Canada, so that in-

dustries of Ontario would not at any time be in danger of competition, or otherwise, of having their factories closed through inability to obtain coal.
They suggest that the freight rates from any mine in Alberta to any point in Ontario should be equalized with the freight rate prevailing from the mines in the States to the point of consumption in Ontario. For example, if the freight rate from any mine in Pennsylvania to any point in Ontario is $5.40 per ton, then the same freight rate should apply from any point in Alberta; in addition that the freight rate from Alberta might also bear the duties and exchange charge, which would go to help out the railways. In other words, the freight rate from Alberta to Ontario to be on an equality with all charges assessed against the American coal, and
Inasmuch as according to estimates carefully made and generally accepted, Alberta contains approximately one twelfth of the world's known supply; and that according to figures submitted by the Mines Branch of the Alberta Provincial Government, the mines of this province are now developed to produce approximately ten million tons of coal per year in the following tonnages: Anthracite, one hundred and fifty thousand tons; bituminous, four million tons; domestic coal, five million tons, and
Inasmuch as the development could and would be rapidly increased to meet enormous additional needs to almost any extent whatever in any or all of the three grades of coal available, and
Inasmuch as the operating of coal mines in Alberta up to and including the present time is hazardous and usually unprofitable as evidenced by the fact that approximately sixty coal mining companies cease to operate during each year on account of insufficient market, and, because the increase in market would enable the coal mine operators in Western Canada to make enormous increase in their development, insuring labour a more nearly constant employment, and at the same time reducing the cost of mining in this province, as well as stabilizing the industry generally. All of which would bring an enormous amount of money into Western Canada.
And for many other good and sufficient reasons too numerous to enumerate at this time be it therefore resolved that this Edmonton Board of Trade or Chamber of Commerce goes on record favouring a most thorough inquiry into the cost of transportation of coal in railway cars to Ontario, as well as by lake and rail; and pledging ourselves to assist the Canadian Manufacturers' Association in every way possible to secure necessary information to lay before our Federal Government on this matter with a view to enlarging the markets for Canadian coal in Canada, as well as benefiting Canada as a whole; and also be it resolved that this board through its organization pledges itself to endeavour to secure the co-operation of the Provincial Government in this endeavour, and that the president appoint a strong committee to present a copy of this resolution to the Premier of the province, and ask his assistance along all necessary lines in order that a definite conclusion may be arrived at; and every effort be put forth to secure the Ontario market for Alberta coal.
Respectfully submitted,
(Signed) C. G. Sheldon,
Chairman Coal Section. Edmonton, Alta., Feb. 14, 1920.
2Ii
I think, Mr. Speaker, I am safe in saying that the foregoing is an excellent presentation of the whole situation in Canada, and of the possibilities in the future provided the railway situation can be accommodated to the requirements outlined in that report. It has been a source of grave anxiety to the Canadian people, but especially to the people of Ontario, that at any time they may find themselves in the appalling position of having no coal. Tliev have very little wood (their alcoholic energy is as yet quite limited)-altogether insufficient for the supply of heat, and as a consequence, unless the coal situation is solved, we may encounter the severest difficulties at any moment. This would not o'nly be a serious matter for the people from the domestic standpoint, but might result in the demoralization of our railway transportation, and Ontario might probably cease to be a fit place to live in, to say nothing of its continuing to be a manufacturing centre. This condition of affairs,. Mr. Speaker, is by no means exaggerated. All those public bodies that have taken the matter into consideration-and I assure you Sir, that they are numerous-have come to* the same conclusion; and private indivi-duals_ who are interested in the questions of this kind are aware that what is here set out is perfectly correct. They realize that Ontario is in danger of a coal famine, and all the horrors incident to a fuel famine, and this is a disaster that may be imminent. It is therefore of prime necessity that we should consider this question in all its bearings now. Heretofore people simply threw up their hands, and impotently asked: "What are we going to do?"
Now, Mr. Speaker, there is offered by the Alberta people a very fair solution of the question with regard to coal, and I purpose also to introduce the matter of industrial alcohol, which, as I ventured to intimate the other day, has undoubtedly appealed to the eastern world, at any rate, as a source of all forms of energy including heat of course. Lest the people generally, who are so concerned in Ontario about alcohol, should step in the way and oppose any legislation having to do with that product, I wrote to the Prime Minister of the province at Toronto and asked him if we might consider the question of alcohol for Ontario. I live in Ontario and represent a constituency there; and whilst, of course, I am deeply concerned in the welfare of Canada and, for that matter, the world at large, still I am more particularly interested about the-welfare of Ontario. The Prime Minister,.

Hon. Mr. Drury, in a letter dated February 24, wrote:
I am in receipt of your letter of the 21st instant, in which you ask whether the manufacture of alcohol for mechanical purposes is to he permitted in Ontario in the future. X am not aware that this is a matter on which the provincial legislature has any control or jurisdiction. So far as my advice goes, the matter is entirely within the purview of the Parliament of Canada.
A very large source of alcohol lies in grain
__corn, potatoes, etc.-and the alcohol thus
produced is the drinkable liquor, which constitutes by far the greater portion of all alcohol used for industrial purposes. At the present time it is shipped to Ottawa to be denatured: That is to say, it is so poisoned as to be unfit for drinking purposes. In other words, it is methylated. Having been rendered unfit as potable liquor it is despatched to the various users who employ it as they see fit. Heretofore industrial alcohol has been so expensive in the production as to have been practically out of the question. Its universality, of course, at once appeals to the whole industrial world, and industrial chemists everywhere have been bending their energies to find some solution of the difficulty with regard to price. This difficulty decreased with the rise in the price of the rival of alcohol, namely gasoline. It was found possible in the course of time to manufacture industrial alcohol at a price that put it on a par with gasolene; and now, owing to the scarcity of gasolene and its consequent high price, alcohol has come into the market. The price of alcohol has been going down, while the cost of gasolene has been going up. Alcohol will really be the source of energy of the future, and the National Councif of Industrial Eesearch has consequently appealed to the Government to effect, if possible, an increase in the natural sources of alcohol, such as corn, potatoes, etc. It is not necessary that these products should be all of the highest quality, but they must be that from which can be secured all the alcohol, and therefore all the energy, we need, without fear of exhaustion. So long as there is seed-time and harvest, so long will there be a source of alcohol and a source of energy which we can utilize. While this may have seemed for a time largely fanciful, it is now well within the realm of practicability. We know this on the authority of our scientific men, who are the only persons that are really capable of expressing an opinion on the subject. And in Canada, which at last has reached that stage of civilization in which the people are able to appreciate that form

of organized or systematized knowledge, known as science, we are prepared at least to investigate, and probably to adopt, in very many particulars, the recommendations of scientific men.
They have control of heating; they have control of industry, they have suggested means to us now for increasing our power over nature and our resistance to climatic change as well as our ability to generate domestic heat. These things being so it is only for us to open our mind and receive the information which is now of a certain and undebatable character so that we may make use of it. And let me say, Mr. Speaker, that it does not do for the members of Parliament of Canada at any time to shrug their shoulders and wait for somebody else, or some other body, to take up these questions, because it is from the Parliament of Canada that the people expect all advances in this particular. The people of Canada expect that Parliament will look after their public affairs and rescue them from anarchy, scarcity, deficiency and weakness of every kind. It is therefore our duty to take advantage of the advice of experts and to see to it that we place in an organized way before the people all means of energy for their use, especially such forms of energy as are practically within our reach at the present time.
The struggle for existence is such that it never really changes. It is always a strug-ble for enough to eat, for sufficient clothing, for a place to live, and for those general requirements with which we are familiar. What is the function of Government? All the authorities, and there are many, clearly indicate that the function of government is to protect the individual-to protect the liberties of the individual from the encroachments of one another, and of the State, and to so guide and order the affairs of the people that they will all co-ordinate and reciprocate to the end that there will not be confusion, strife, discontent or suffering.
The idea that a government should keep the balance between the taxes collected from the people and the amount paid in, and that was all they had to do, is, in a country as large as 'Canada, entirely erroneous. It might do in some small country, or in some country where they have not reached that stage of ambition which would prompt them to greater effort, intellectually and otherwise. What is it tjiat has made France great? Her chemistry. What is it that made Germany once great? Her chemistry and chemistry only. What is that is making England great? Her chemistry. We see

from day to day how she is advancing in that particular; and some of the most interesting articles in English books and English magazines are upon the fact that whilst their chemists and people discovered ways and means greatly to the profit of humanity, they had neither the brains nor the energy to develop them. They.were picked up by Germany, and other countries, and made use of; and England, instead of benefiting, suffered in the long run. Great Britain has given that up. She has turned her atten- * tion to the use of those things that have been invented and discovered for her advantage. It is unnecessary to point to the United States in that particular. From one end of that country to the other they are throbbing with intelligence; they are throbbing with energy; they are seeking for every known means of bettering what we may call at large the physical condition of the world and their own people.
It behooves us to advance in that way; and I say that you will look in vain on the Order Paper for many years to find much which bears on questions which we are now about to consider. There are people who will say that the high cost of living should be left to take care of itself. Well, we find that such a state of affairs is absolutely impossible, unless we say at the same time that anarchy may run riot in the country, There must be a balance, an equilibrium in the country or you cannot have contentment, you cannot have satisfaction, you cannot have reasonable comfort, you cannot have progress. You will have what you are on - the verge of having in this country, an upheaval; and I say that if we have discord, that if we have discontent, if we have disturbances in the country, it is largely the fault of this Parliament in that it has given no great intelligent consideration to the questions which stare it directly in the face.
We are supposed to control transportation; we are supposed to control all the adjuncts of transportation; we suppose our. selves to have reached that advanced stage in which we enable one part of the country to trade with another, working men to reach their work, and labour to secure work. They say there is plenty of labour in the^country, plenty of work. Well then surely it must he the fault of the people who are administering the affairs of the country if labour cannot get to work and work is out of reach of labour. This happens in a great many cases because, of course, as we are all aware, it is a matter of serious expense on the part of labour to get to its work. Therefore it is for us to
take an intelligent consideration of these matters and to remember above all not to bring forward weekly budgets from a Ministry of Labour that absolutely fail to tally with the week's earnings of the wage earner. It is a matter of the simplest possible logic that when the weekly budget amounts to a sum-mind you of necessaries, and really not all the necessaries but as a matter of fact less than two-thirds of the necessaries -in excess, and considerably in excess, of the weekly earnings of the average wage earner there can be no escape from discontent, angeT and disturbance. People are very much inclined, especially those who have reached a certain stage of comfort and luxury, to wave off all these troubles as if they were necessary troubles arising from the struggle for existence, and to take the view, as the free-trader says, that they will settle themselves. Of course they will settle themselves. If a man is in trouble and if he becomes desperate he will settle the question by going out and snatching what he wants from somebody else. The questions will settle themselves, the problems will find solution, but such a solution as no civilized society could endorse or endure. Now when we have reached the very apex of the situation, when the high cost of living is so high that it is beyond all bounds, when it has nothing whatever to do, as at present, with the old time-worn doctrine of supply and demand,-when there may be a great supply and corresponding great demand, or a greater supply and a less demand, or vice versa,-it makes no difference, the cost of living mounts, the struggle for existence becomes more frightful, until at last every man who considers the question at all must ask himself: What will be the result?
The labouring men of this country will in the end solve the question for themselves if we do not solve it. There is a certain class of people not up to what we call the standard mechanic or the regular wage-earner, people who depend upon the precarious supply of unskilled labour-for example, the ordinary digger. If the winter is hard he has little to do, and the harder the winter the less he has to do, but the more it costs him to live. In a country sensibly managed such people should have every means afforded them of earning their livelihood and enjoying reasonable comfort, and not be condemned to a miserable existence because we are too lazy or too selfish or unchristianized and have not brains enough for the proper conduct of the ordinary affairs of life.

Christianity, the great ideal of the people as it was originally preached, is applicable first and foremost to the poor. But who in the wide world has tried to monopolize it, to dictate about it and to patronize it? The rich. God forbid that the rich should try to get into Heaven, for they will find it more difficult of entry than even the Scriptures have said! Their selfishness!, their active hostility to the great body of the people, their hostility to any consideration of reason in the treatment of affairs will bring its revenge upon them; Nemesis awaits them, and it will be some satisfaction to see what it does with them ultimately.
In a word, we have a country with boundless resources, we have a people energetic, ambitious, well-intentioned, and desirous of getting on, but with no great power of settling their own affairs. That power rests largely with Capital and with those men who undertake to represent the people in houses of parliament. And if those people to whom I have last referred do not' show consideration for the mass of the people, what can there be but discontent and dissatisfaction and an uprising of the people to seize the reins of power, to seize those resources which lie near at hand and which would satisfy all their wants and give them that labour which they are willing to expend in the satisfaction of such wants, but which they cannot afford under present conditions.
We talk of protection, which is a most admirable form when we speak of it as self-control. My hon. friend from Brome (Mr. McMaster) shakes his head, but if he is to be a consistent Free Trader his motto must be: Let the Devil take the hindmost. There is absolutely no qualification of Free Trade, no qualification of free competition, ct>
opposition whatever to the importation of Chinese labour, no possibility of regulation. Oh, I have read Adam Smith, Ricardo, John Stuart Mill, and his father James Mill; I know them all word for word. You cannot fool me. Their idea was to take the bonds off industry, to let industry go free. And what happened? Of course, Capital in a short time had complete mastery of the situation, and the people became as nothing. Our friend John Bright was perfectly willing to see men, women and children working fifteen hours a day.


Mr. McMASTER:: Mr Speaker, I want to correct my hon. and learned friend, because that is the second time he has repeated that slander against John Bright. John Bright did not object to factory laws protecting

Children. My hon. friend should not make such a statement; it is not true.


Mr. BURNHAM:: In the English House
of Commons he voted against the laws for shortening the hours of labour.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Not the hours of labour for children.


John Hampden Burnham: 
Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: Mr. Speaker, the
question which the hon. member (Mr. Burnham) has dealt with so ably is one to which more importance, perhaps, should be attached than we have been in the habit of giving it. The hon. member has dealt with the question of fuel as bearing upon the cost of supplying the needs of the ordinary household. In the country from which I come we have an abundance of splendid fuel. In Ontario and perhaps further West there are thousands of people who have not readily available a
plentiful supply of good fuel. The coal which we have in Nova Scotia is soft or bituminous coal. A great many of the people of this country do not want to use this coal; they desire the more luxurious article,-anthracite or hard coal. I suppose that hard coal may be used more conveniently than soft coal, and perhaps it is cleaner and less productive of dust and smoke. Well, I like a comfortable home as well as anybody, and I have been burning bituminous Nova Scotia coal in my house for the last thirty years, with the exception of one or two years when I used a few tons of hard coal. What I regard as good enough for my home would be fairly good, I think, for the average home in this country. Of course, in many cities and larger centres of Canada the houses are not equipped for the burning of soft coal, the furnaces being constructed to burn hard coal. It is worth while considering the advisability of having these furnaces changed and of installing furnaces which will burn soft coal. Thousands of people who have no furnaces depend upon the ordinary stove and the ordinary grate. For people of that class no fuel is more satisfactory than the good coal which we in Nova Scotia are able to produce.
Of course, it is all very well for me to talk about the people of Port Arthur and other places that are far from Nova Scotia using our bituminous coal; the question for the consumer is: Can I, at reasonable cost, get that coal delivered at my residence? The question, therefore, is largely one of transportation. How are we to get the coal from Nova Scotia to these different .parts of the country where it is most needed? I have several times spoken in the House upon this question. The member for East Lamb-ton (Mr. J. E. Armstrong) brought the matter up in an indirect way last year or the year before and thus gave us an opportunity of discussing it. Now, the only way-of getting the coal of Nova Scotia as far west as Port Arthur, the extreme western limit of our inland navigable waters, is by developing the St. Lawrence route. I suggest to the Government, and particularly to the Minister of Railways and Acting Minister of Public Works (Hon. J. D. Reid) and the Minister of Trade and Commerce that in my judgment nothing calls more urgently for the expenditure of public money than the opening of the St. Lawrence trade route between Port Arthur and the Atlantic seaboard, so that coal may be loaded on a vessel at Sydney, North Sidney, Pictou or Parrsboro and conveyed to Port Arthur, and, of course, intermediate points,

by water. The return cargo can be made up of manufactured goods, fruit, meat, or whatever else the people along that route have to supply. The miners and steel workers of Nova Scotia would be delighted to obtain some of that excellent fruit which is produced in Ontario and for which, I understand, the market is not what it ought to be. It may be surprising to some to hear people from Nova Scotia speaking of getting food from anywhere else, as we have beautiful orchards and we raise large quantities of fruit in that province. That is quite so; but instead of the fruit that is raised in the Annapolis valley going to the eastern part of the province, it finds its way to the United States, only very little of it going to the eastern part of Nova Scotia. Therefore, a magnificent market is left open for fruit which could be cheaply carried from parts of Ontario to Cape Breton if we had navigation from the seacoast as I have stated. This is the point which I wish particularly to bring to the attention of the Government, namely, that we have coal in abundance, in almost inexhaustible supply, and of its kind as good as any coal that there is in the world, and the question is ong of opening up a way by which we in the East can send our products to the far West as far as navigation is possible, and bring back to our province wheat, flour, meats, fruits and other products which a vessel could bring back after having carried a cargo of coal and steel to points in the West. We produce abundance of steel, and we are only, so to speak, picking up pebbles on the seacoast of what is forthcoming in Nova Scotia as regards the production of iron and steel. Millions of English capital are, I understand, about to be invested in those great industries, and it would be well that we be able to supply the raw material for the manufacture of farm implements and such other articles as require the use of iron and steel in their manufacture. We shall be able to furnish, of our own production within Canada and for our own people, those goods, if we have the proper facility for transportation as I have stated. The difficulty now is that by rail the distances are great, and the freight rates, although possibly reasonable, will, on account of the .long distances, make the transportation of those goods prohibitive. My reason, therefore, for taking part in this discussion was to impress on the Government, and particularly on the Minister of Mines (Mr. Meighen), that the subject touched upon by the hon. member (Mr. Burnham) is far-reaching in its effect, and fMr. McKenzie.]
that the motion should not be passed as a perfunctory matter that has no bearing upon the development of this country and of our resources. I am very glad that the hon. member has brought this matter, even in this somewhat indefinite way, before the House. I do not quite agree with him that it is necessary to set any time apart for the discussion of the subject, because that would be almost like asking us to set a time apart to prove that two and two make four. The question is what will the Government do? How can public money be utilized in bringing about the condition which I have outlined and which everybody knows? The Department of Mines should and, I suppose, have information in regard to the available coal in the different provinces. I suppose it will be found in the report of that department how coal may be utilized, whether it is fit for domestic purposes, and the prices at which coal, providing there are proper facilities for bringing it to the points which I have mentioned, may be laid down at those points. Finally, I have in mind the necessity of this country being indepedent of any other country in the world in regard to fuel. We get a large quantity of fuel from across the line now, and we are neighbourly and good friends. But should anything happen by which troubles might arise and an embargo be placed upon fuel coming into Canada, we could be starved out or frozen out in less than ten days if we were entirely dependent upon that country and not equipped for the use of our own coal and not able to bring our own coal to the points where it is required. This is an important question, and this is the place and the time that hon. gentlemen should give such an important question due consideration.


Hon. AETHUE MEIGHEN (Minister of the Interior):: Mr. .Speaker, the opening
sentence of the resolution calls attention to the high cost of living and to the consequences thereof; but I observed, I am sorry to say only after the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Burnham) had commenced his address, that the latter half emphasizes in particular the fuel situation in Canada and the need for a time being selected for its discussion in this House. The sources of fuel supply of this Dominion are indeed ample; they are prolific. Fuel, as at present consumed, consists mainly of coal; but coal is only one source of supply; oil is another; wood is another; peat is a fourth, and oil from our oil shale deposits may be said to be a fifth. I have

a little knowledge oi one subject of fuel supply mentioned by the hon. member for Peterborough West, namely, alcohol. I would not be in a position to discuss how far we might rely upon that for the development of energy, other than human energy.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Only briefly.


Arthur Meighen: The coal of the Dominion lies mainly in the extreme provinces. In the province represented in part by the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria fMr. McKenzie), there are, of course, huge deposits of the character of coal he describes. There are also deposits in the other Maritime Provinces; but the great central provinces of Ontario and Quebec are in the main bereft of that supply. In Western Canada, coal is found in Manitoba in considerable abundance, in Saskatchewan in greater abundance, and in Alberta in abundance so very great as to make that province one of the main sources of supply of the world. The province of British Columbia also contributes its quota, and no meagre quota either. It as fortunate that in those provinces and areas of Canada where coal and, in the main, wood are not to be found, and where oil -"appears only in very limited quantities, we have another sourcq of supply as yet only partially developed, though developed in greater degree than does any other country in the world develop it, namely, water-power. When one says that all those coal deposits lie in the provinces that I have named, that does not get us much further in the way of reaching a solution of what is called the fuel.problem of Canada. There are many who loosely think or say that, inasmuch as there lies in Alberta 12 per cent, it is said-I think the percentage is larger-of the reserve coal of the world, we there may immediately rely upon a great bank against which we can issue cheques for the discharge of the national debt of Canada, or even a bank against which we can call for the supply of the fuel needed to heat our homes. There are a lot of graver problems associated with this question than the mere existence of what is described as an inexhaustible source of supply in the bosom of mother earth. If one talks in those terms it would be correct, I suppose, to say that in most sections of farm land in Western Canada there lies the potentiality of a million dollars' worth of value for the good of the people of Canada. The value is there all right. The content of the soil is there, the sunlight and the rains fall upon the lands, and if human brain and human muscle are
brought to bear and time does its work, then doubtless the wealth will come. The very same argument applies to our coal. There is in the province of Alberta alone, speaking from memory, 400,000 million tons of coal deposits, chiefly lignite, very largely bituminous, but with some anthracite, which, though not as hard as Pennsylvania anthracite, is claimed to have an oil content and other contents which make it a better fuel. But the fact is undisputed that the invested capital heretofore applied to the coal of that province has returned to the investor something like only one-eighth of one per cent of annual revenue. It has been charged against the policy of Canada dating back for decades that we have given these deposits away to speculators and others, but the fact of the matter is that up to the present hour the Dominion, as a Dominion, has not at all lost its fair share of the wealth of those depgsits. It is true some of them have been fee alienated, but even in those cases a return has been secured, and I think a comparison between the position of the country on the one hand and the alienee or purchaser on the other would show that the country came off rather the better. The purchaser for the most part, though there may be exceptions, has secured very little at all on his capital invested, whereas the country has secured at all events the purchase price and the advantage of some development. Dating back I think to 1914, the alienation of natural resources ceased, except by means of leasing. A fee has not been given since that time, and the coal .deposits, the same as other resources, have been let on rental terms and subject to royalty, both bringing in revenue to ,the Dominion, and subject to carefully devised regulations to protect the public interest so far as the best experts at our command could advise us how those interests could be protected. The difficulty is mainly that the market within transportation range of the coal pit is so limited that to turn out the coal on such a scale as would admit of cheap production is very difficult indeed. When we reach the day when that country will have developed and industries have become established there and population increased, the market will grow with the growth of the nation, and the output of [DOT]coal will reach a scale where it will more easily compete in point of cost of production with coal fields in other lands.
Another factor in the situation is this: Western coal, and particularly Saskatchewan coal, is. mainly a lignite deposit, and not of a nature that admits of mufch ex-

posure and transportation. Consequently; efforts have been made by this Government and by the previous Government to devise some scientific means whereby that lignite coal could be put in a form not only to be of use in competition with anthracite coal, but to admit of transportation the same as anthracite, and be made available for the consumers of Western Canada, who are now compelled to use mostly anthracite from Pennsylvania. A board was formed in co-operation with the provinces of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and appropriations were made to that board, whose duty it was to engage in scientific research in order to devise carbonizing methods, and study the briquetting that follows the carbonizing, in order, if possible, to put the briquetting of lignite coal on a commercial basis where it might succeed. My information is that the results so far obtained by that joint board, are very encouraging indeed. It is even intimated that private capital would be disposed now to. attack the problem and possibly to relieve the Dominion of further financial obligations, but I have nothing definite to say in that regard. It is, however, a pleasure to me to intimate to Parliament that the members of that board are encouraged by the results so far attained, and hope to be able to reach results more complete which will make certain the commercial success of the briquetting process.


Mr. NESBITT:: Has the minister any
idea of the actual cost of transport of a ton of coal from Edmonton to Toronto?


Arthur Meighen: I have not definite information, but I rather think the actual cost of transport is now not less than the amount charged. I am inclined to think that the coal rates, generally speaking, are placed as low as they can be placed, unless it is to be assumed that coal must be carried at a loss.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is it not a fact that the cost of freight and handling alone would be greater than what we have to pay now for bituminous coal on the other side?


Arthur Meighen: I think it is.


John Hampden Burnham: Does that take into
consideration water transport?


Edward Walter Nesbitt: You have to have water transport for a certain distance.


Arthur Meighen: I could not give the
details, but I can assure the hon. member that all these subjects have been most carefully inquired into by those who would

like to develop these mines and to reach the very market the hon. member has in mind. They are the most anxious people of all. There is no doubt in the world that the Edmonton Board of Trade would be delighted beyond measure if some means could be found that would reduce the cost of transportation, possibly at the expense of the Canadian National railways, to such a figure as would bring about a larger area of consumption for the coal of Alberta. We all would like the same thing, but these things must be put on a common sense business basis, and the efforts of the Mines Department are devoted to the finding of ways and means for putting the business on that basis in order that it may be made a success, on its own merits, and not at the expense of failure of some other national enterprise.
It is a fact that at the present time we import into' this Dominion huge quantities of anthracite coal and, indeed, of bituminous coal as well. Our importations altogether from the United States last year amounted to $740,000,000. Of that sum, about $200,000,000 worth consisted of one article which I do not think it is necessary that I should mention at this moment; but $61,000,000 represented importations of coal.


Mr. BELAND:: Seventy millions.


Arthur Meighen: Sixty-one million dollars. Those are the figures given me [DOT] by the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I saw it given as $70,000,000.


Arthur Meighen: It is possible that the hon. gentleman saw the figures for another year terminating in another month. The figures given to me for the year 1919 by the department aggregate $61,000,000. However, if it were $70,000,000 my argument would be all the stronger. That is a stupendous sum, to save which it is worth making considerable sacrifice. It is noteworthy as well that while our consumption of coal has kept on increasing during the last few years, our consumption of imported coal has advanced far more rapidly than the consumption of domestic coal. I speak now from memory and am therefore subject to correction, but I think that in five years we have advanced in production of domestic coal from thirteen to fourteen million odd tons, while in the very same time there has been an advance in the use of imported coal from twenty-six to thirty-four million tons-a far greater advance in the consumption of imported coal than of domestic coal.


Mr. PARENT:: In view of the figures cited by the minister, I should like to know if Canada would be in a position to supply its own market in the event of the United States Government prohibiting the exportation of coal from that country into Cnaada.


Arthur Meighen: I would be the last to admit that any action on the part of the United States would put us entirely off the map of the North American continent. We would have to meet the emergency, which I think is unlikely though not impossible; and in this connection I commend the prudence of the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria (Mr. McKenzie) in his assertion that we should guard against all such emergencies to the utmost of our power. The doctrine is a sound one and every Canadian should subscribe to it. But if the emergency suggested by the hon. member (Mr. Parent) did occur, while there would he hardship and suffering which would undoubtedly put us to our wits end and tax all our resources, we have the coal. Indeed, we have more than the coal; we have wood; and though it would cost a great deal, I do not think the time would be long before we should be able to meet even a disaster so great as the one in consideration. The question of transportation is of course relevant, and it is just because the coal of this country must be transported over distances so vast, our country being so extensive in proportion to the population, that this nation has gone to such colossal expenditures in the matter of transportation. We are now engaged in the enterprise of deepening the Welland canal to a twenty-five foot capacity. It is hoped that the St. Lawrence route will ultimately be made of the same capacity, and I should not like the word "ultimately" to be interpreted as being synonymous with "eternity." I trust it may be given a reasonable interpretation. 'It is not a matter of merely finding a method of using Dominion moneys to achieve this result; it is a matter of finding Dominion moneys to use for the purpose. The deepening of the Welland canal had to be deferred during the progress of the war, and just how far we shall be able to go in resuming operations is purely a matter of finance. It is not a question of desire nor one of the wisdom of the undertaking, because so long as the coal and grain and other huge resources of the Dominion must be transported east and west, so long is it clear that water transportation must be provided therefor.
iComing to other sources of fuel, I have briefly stated what is being done in the way of endeavouring to make available our softer coal deposits. I might go further and say that the transportation problem is being thoroughly studied in the department, whose officers are only too anxious that larger appropriations shall be made to enable them to go forward with this work, which is a question of money, too. I gave the figures of the coal deposits of 'Canada, and I think I referred to Alberta at the time. If so, my figures were wrong. The coal deposits of Canada are estimated at four hundred thousand million tons, and the peat deposits of Canada at nine thousand million tons, or two and a quarter per cent of the coal deposits. The coal deposits of this country would last for centuries for all the people whom the most optimistic of us could contemplate as likely to inhabit this land. The peat deposits would afford very considerable relief, though their development should also be put upon a commercial basis provided some process could be found to make them available. Some progress has been made along that line, but I fear it is not the most encouraging.
As to oil as a source of fuel-and this is a matter which is becoming of more and more importance as the years advance-we are still in a rather unfortunate position. I am not sure that I can give the figures correctly as to this, but I think we imported last year something like four hundred and fifty-one million gallons of oil, as against two hundred and thirty-odd million gallons five years ago-a tremendous advance in the oil importations of the country. Our own oil production during the same period increased from nine to ten million gallons; so that just two per cent of the oil consumed in Canada is produced at home. It is hoped by all that this condition of affairs will not last long. Oil is much more easily transported than coal, and there is every reason to hope, if not to believe, that we may see a very considerable oil discovery in this country. This Government, the previous government, and the government that preceded it -and particularly the last-offered considerable inducements to enable private enterprise to discover oil; and those of us who have given any thought to this question will not hesitate long to decide that private enterprise is the most likely agency to lead to mineral discovery; yea, to mineral development. Bounties have been, and are being paid, in oil production. Some ten years ago the minister of that day, under his powers granted him by Parliament, put

through an order whereby it was provided that in all oil leases issued thereafter a clause might be inserted protecting the lessee against royalty on his oil or gas up to 1930. That was done in order to induce to the utmost extent oil and gas prospecting in this country. All these efforts have resulted in, at least, a very great deal of prospecting and, as a consequence, the Dominion Treasury has benefited to a very considerable extent. I think if a comparison was made between the results to the Treasury on the one hand, and the results to the prospector on the other, the Dominion Treasury would be found to be the furthest ahead a long way. We have had a lot of money from oil leases, a great deal of money has come to the Treasury; but taking it all in all, and in the aggregate, not very much has come to the prospector. Believing that .there was reason to expect better results in the near future, steps have recently been taken whereby that clause is no longer inserted in oil leases, and the Government will be empowered, as respects all leases issued after the change was made some months ago, to collect such royalty as may be deemed to be fair and reasonable in respect of oil and gas production. Also leases now held are being cancelled much more quickly than in past years, the object being to reduce as far as possible those within the exempted class and to bring them as far as possible within the non-exempted class, to the end that the State may conserve what may be deemed the rights of the whole people of Canada in respect of oil and gas deposits. But let it not be thought that this is a field where the State is likely to intervene as a commercial exploiter, and to succeed better than private enterprise. It seems to me that this field of activity is one where private enterprise will succeed most, and where the results will consequently be best for the State as well as best for the citizens of the State. So much for that.
As regards the source of oil from oil shales, not very great progress has yet been made. We have a number of officers who have given considerable attention to that work, and some investigation has taken place. It is our great desire that investigation be made more thorough and more expeditious. We have great oil shale deposits in New Brunswick, in Nova Scotia and in Alberta; I think, as well, there are some in Prince Edward Island. Of course the extracting of oil from oil shale is a much less agreeable way of getting it than merely watching it come through a pipe

out of the earth. It will not likely be found that oil can be produced from oil shales in immediate competition with oil deposits in the bosom of the earth. Nevertheless it is of great value to the Dominion that those oil shales exist; and I think the time has come when we ought to try to spare the money, if we can, to investigate their possibilities. I take second place to none in the desire that the utmost progress be made as to coal, as to gas, as to oil, as to peat, as to every other source of fuel supply, to the end that this Dominion in that regard, as in all others, be to the utmost extent Economically independent, and that we be to the least possible degree dependent upon the legislation, or the whim, of any other country. We cannot move too fast to that end, consistent with our financial capacity; and so far as my influence goes I intend to urge that these investigations proceed. I believe, however, that more has been done than is generally known to the people of Canada. Indeed one of the things that come under the notice of public men, and I am sure hon. gentlemen opposite have had the same experience, is this: It is very general to find an eager and honest desire for investigation and an impatience that all these things are not known; but those very men who express such impatience usually know themselves very little as to what actual investigation has gone and is going on. To my own knowledge ser

' vices are being rendered by public officials, officers of departments and their branches- services rendered assiduously and efficiently and that possibly have been rendered for years. Nevertheless resolutions are received from public bodies, boards of trade and the like, demanding that something be done immediately to institute investigation into the very thing which has long been investigated, and thoroughly investigated, and in respect of which reports have been issued and findings made that the parties complaining have never even taken the trouble to refer to or read. I would commend to hon. gentlemen the desirability of communicating with the department in such matters. We will be only too ready to give the results of the inquiries that have been made by its scientific officers; and invite them further to stand behind any estimate that may be presented-estimates which are necessary and which will permit the officers of the department to achieve greater results more expeditiously, and more thoroughly.


Mr. H. A. MACKIE:: What objection is there to amend the regulations so as to permit the extraction of the oil from tar sand?


Arthur Meighen: You cannot extract oil by regulation.
Mr. H. A. MAiCKlE: You can get oil from tar sand but there is a restriction in the lease which prevents its extraction.


Arthur Meighen: That is a point which I would like the hon. gentleman to write me about. I do not know the exact point to which he refers but if his statement is correct there must be some good reason for the regulation.


Henry Arthur Mackie: I endeavoured to
get. the department to permit the extraction of oil from tar sand but they refused.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: I must remind hon. gentleman that the House is not in Committee and therefore questions cannot be promiscuously put at this stage.


Andrew Ross McMaster: I did not intend to take part in this debate and I propose that my entry into it shall be of very short duration., A remark dropped by the minister at the conclusion of his interesting remarks, however, gives me encouragement to bring up a matter which I think is of the utmost importance in connection with this and other allied possibilities. I would imagine that the work of the Dominion Government in connection with matters such as the one before the House this afternoon largely depends upon the success of the operations of the Geological Survey. That is, if the Geological Survey is in good working condition we may expect success, and if it is not in as good operation as it [DOT] should be that success cannot be looked for. It has come to my attention that six months ago there were-and I speak subject to correction-about twenty-four qualified members of the Geological Survey, men whose reputation in Canada and on the Continent is of the highest, and my information is that a very substantial number-I think some six or eight-[DOT] have in the last six months resigned from this very valuable service. No doubt the competition of mining and industrial companies to avail themselves of the expert knowledge of these men is responsible in no small degree for their leaving the public service to enter private employment. Nevertheless, according to the information which I have received, there is another reason fqr their resignation and it is that they have not been given the opportunity to carry out, as they would have desired, scientific investigations and to make known to the public the result of those investigations. These men, many of whom are scientists of the
highest repute, have been for years induced to remain in the public service-not for the salary which they can obtain, because that was not commensurate with what they could gain elsewhere, but from the fact that they were doing valuable scientific work which would redound to the material interests of their country and to their own professional reputation.
Now, it has come to my knowledge that these men have not been given an opportunity of completing and making known to the world the results of the investigation which some of them have been conducting for many years. I place the matter before the minister, assuring him that I believe my information to be correct, and I would invite his careful attention to the matter at the earliest possible moment in order that an opportunity may be presented of dealing with the subject.


John Hampden Burnham: Mr. Speaker-
Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER. Before the hon. member addresses the House it is my duty to remind hon. members that he is exercising his right to close the debate. Therefore if any other hon. member wishes to speak he must do so now.


Arthur Meighen: The motion calls for
a time to be selected for the discussion, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact we have already fulfilled the purpose of the motion and discussed it.


John Hampden Burnham: Mr. Speaker, I would
ask the hon. minister to note that the day remains open. It would, in my opinion, give a very bad impression throughout the country to negative this resolution, because it can be passed, and to show the good-will of the House, without being brought to that severe concrete stage which might in view of the admirable statement given by the hon. minister embarrass him unnecessarily.
The object in discussing this question was, of course, to discover what condition Canada is in at the present moment with regard to fuel and the other necessaries of life. I touched generally upon those necessaries, because I did not think it incumbent upon me to carry about a pound of butter or a basket of eggs in order to impress hon. members with the details of what I meant. However, the subject dealt with by the minister has been exhaustively and satisfactorily handled by him, and therefore we may repose a measure of confidence upon the fact that the Government is doing all that it possibly can, even to

spending money in the interests of the people, in that respect.
Time and again people have asked me: What is the Government doing? The people did not know, and hon. members did not know; and, replying to the hon. minister, I may say that the ministry did not take the trouble to inform the House. The books and pamphlets which are issued-from time to time in this respect convey a certain amount of information of a geological or mineralogical character, but without discussing economic questions in any satisfactory way. I wish to give to the National Council of Industrial Research the highest possible praise, their intentions are of the best, and they earn far more than the miserable pittance we give them.
I would therefore ask the minister to let this resolution go through in order that the people at large may be impressed with the idea that our minds are not closed to suggestions of progress.


Arthur Meighen: I have no objection
to the motion going through, but I would suggest to the hon. member that the first portion of the resolution might be amended. Having secured discussion of the motion I thought it was the intention of the hon. member to withdraw it, as I see no purpose to be served by not taking that course. It does appear to me that it would not be good judgment on the part of this House to announce to the world that a large portion of the people of this country are in a " desperate condition." While of course we have our poor the same as other countries, I think we have a smaller proportion now, and undoubtedly fewer people are at present depending on charity, than ever before in the history of Canada, and certainly no more than in. any other part of the world. Therefore, whatever opinions hon. members may entertain, I do not think it would be wise on the part of this House to propound to the world that our people are in a " desperate condition."


John Hampden Burnham: I am perfectly willing to accept the hon. minister's suggestion and to let the resolution go through aa, he amends it.
Mr. MEIGHiEN: I move that the resolution be amended by striking out the first recital:
-whereas the rise in the price of necessaries is leaving many of the people of Canada in a desperate condition.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Resolution as amended agreed to.

John Hampden Burnham: 
Mr. H. H. STEVENS (Vancouver Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to state very briefly the reasons why I consented to second the motion submitted by my hon. friend (Mr. Burnham). I hold in my hand a copy of Hansard of the second session of last year, which contains the statement of the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden) and his report -to the House of his activities as our chief representative at the Peace Conference. In that statement I find an account of the tentative agreement entered into with regard to improving the conditions for labour, and also a very clear statement that world-wide peace was largely dependent upon industrial and social peace within the bounds of each country, and that this industrial and social peace could best be brought about by instituting certain reforms which apparently were deemed by all to be necessary.
I shall not weary the House by making any lengthy remarks on the subject; I shall simply read one or two brief paragraphs from the statement officially presented to the House last September. The Prime Minister said:
Side by side with the Covenant-
That is, the League of Nations.

stand the provisions of the Labour Convention. It was my privilege to attend the earlier meetings of the Commission which framed the articles on that subject now embodied in Part XIII of the Treaty. At one of these meetings the preamble of the Labour Convention was framed. [DOT] It is as follows.
That preamble contains the following paragraph:	.
And whereas conditions of labour exist involving such injustice, hardship and privation

to large numbers of people as to produce unrest so great that the peace and harmony of the world are imperilled;
That is a statement in which this House concurred, and in which I believe all the nations represented at the Peace Conference also concurred. It goes on:
An improvement of those conditions is urgently required; as, for example, by the regulation of the hours of work.
Surely we were serious a year ago when we, as a nation, proudly, I think, entered into this great League of Nations, became a party to it, took our place at the forefront of it. Indeed, Sir, our Prime Minister, if I remember rightly, presented to that Conference these very articles arrived at by the Labour Commission or committee. A little further on, it says:
Whereas also the failure of any nation to adopt humane conditions of labour is an obstacle in the way of other nations which de6ire to improve the conditions in their own countries.
And a little further on, it says also:
Holding as they do,

That is, this particular portion of the Peace Conference, the Labour group.
-that labour should not be regarded merely as an article of commerce, they -think that there are methods and principles for regulating labour conditions which all industrial communities should endeavour to apply, so far as their special circumstances will permit.
Then follow a series of nine specific articles citing what in their opinion should be the process of working out these improved conditions, and this series contains one article, No. 4, reading as follows:
The adoption of an eight-hours day of a forty-eight-hours week as the standard to be aimed at where it has no,t already been attained.
Upon this very important statement, presented to this House by the Prime Minister of Canada (Sir Robert Borden), the leader of the Government that I am now supporting, and arrived at at a conference which studied these problems from a world-wide as well as a national standpoint and at great length and in great detail, I propose to this House in support of the motion moved by the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Burnham) that Canada should, by action of its Parliament, take the first national step, as I believe it would he, to bring into actual existence by law the intimation or suggestion made in this proposal at the Peace Conference.
I take another reason, and it is this, that it is common, ordinary justice. I believe
[Mr. Stevens.1	1 j I ;
that industrial peace, or the settlement of industrial disputes, will be arrived at more speedily and will be made more perman- , ent by the introduction of the elements of justice into the consideration of these disputes than in any other way. Compromise is good; but a frank recognition by a nation of the elements of justice, so far as it is possible to ascertain them, will, I say, bring about permanent industrial and social peace within our boundaries more quickly, directly and effectively than in any other way, and I hold that the demand for an eight-hour day is a just and fair demand on the part of labour. I do not wish this House to infer that I stand behind the extreme demands of labour as they are made in some of their presentations; but there are some of their demands which have the elements of justice pre-eminently present, and I think we should hasten to accede to these.
Another point is this, that already a very large proportion of the great industries of Canada recognize and practise the eight-hour day as a standard day. Therefore, it would be infinitely better, in the interest of a stable industrial condition in Canada, that there should be a national standardized eight-hour day, so that in different parts of the country, manufacturing interests, for instance, would know that in estimating the cost of their products they would have to take into account a standard eight-hour day. Why, for instance, should a factory in British Columbia recognize an eight-hour day, having been forced to that perhaps by the organized strength of labour, and a factory in Quebec, or in the Maritime provinces, or in Ontario manufacturing the same article, recognize a nine or a ten-hour day? The immediate consequence of such a condition is that one manufacturer is undoubtedly handicapped to a greater or lesser degree.
In any case it does not provide for those who are considering investment in industrial concerns any idea of the stability of the hours of labour and of what is commonly called the conditions of the labour market. Therefore, I say it would be fairer to all if we had a standardized day of labour for the whole of Canada rather than to have in one province an eight-hour day and in another a ten-hour day, and in another a nine-hour day, and so on.
In conclusion, let me say this, that the industrial condition of Canada is not by any means in a hopeless state. I look over the world to-day and I read with the utmost attention and interest the reports we are re-
\

ceiving from all quarters, and weighing these with the greatest care and discrimination, I feel that I am not boasting when I say that Canada is in a better condition than any other country as regards industrial and social conditions within its own boundaries. That being the case, I contend that it is strong evidence that we have made no mistake in treating labour with a generous hand, as we undoubtedly have done in Canada in comparison with other countries, and it warrants us in taking this forward step and establishing a standard eight-hour day in Canada. I shall, therefore, support the motion moved by the hon. member for West Peterborough (Mr. Burnham).


Mr. EDMOND PROULX (Prescott):: Mr. Speaker, I am not in sympathy with my hon. friend (Mr. Stevens), because there is a danger of having too much governmental regulation. This question, I believe, can be left to employees and employers to settle. Labour unions are now very powerful; they can dictate their terms to their employers, and in certain industries if an eight-hour day is sufficiently long, I think they can manage to get their requests acceded to by their employers. In certain industries ten hours would not be harder than eight hours a day in others. Most of the industries which run night and day and which require three shifts, have adopted the eight-hour day; hut where industries work only in the day time, eight hours would be a short day, and those industries could not produce the same quantities of goods in eight hours as they could in ten hours. Countries like Germany have maintained the ten-hour day, and Germany is producing more to-day than probably any of the allied countries. This question will also affect agricultural industry. Labour unions are satisfied that it should not be applied to agricultural industry or lumbering operations, but it cannot otherwise than affect agricultural industries. Farmers who live near a town or village will not be able to get their men to work ten hours a day when those men see others in the town or village working only eight hours, and we shall have diminished production. What we need is greater production, particularly in agriculture, and greater export if we are to stabilize the trade of this country. Decreasing the hours of labour will mean diminished production. Agriculture, like lumbering, is a seasonal occupation.
I thank this is a question that can wait, and that can very well be dealt with by the employers and employees. It came before 22
them at the Industrial Conference last September. The labour unions represented there were strong for the eight-hour day, but I think the majority of the employers were against it. I am sorry that all the labour unions in this country were not represented at that conference. There are some labour unions in the province of Quebec which are doing good work and have a large membership that were not represented at that Conference, and these unions are not in favour of the eight-hour day for all industries, although they favour it for certain industries. We have a great war debt, which has to be paid, and how are we going to pay it if we decrease production in this country and lessen the means of earning?


John Hampden Burnham: There is nothing in
this resolution which would prevent a man from working twenty-four hours a day if he wanted to. The eight-hour day simply means payment on that basis. If anybody wished to make an agreement to work longer than that, it would be quite open for him to do so.


Edmond Proulx: But if you make the
eight-hour day the standard, you would not be able to get men in many industries to work longer than that, or you would have to pay them perhaps fifty or one hundred per cent more than the regular rate for overtime. I am not in favour of this resolution, and I hope the Government will not be in a hurry to present to this House any measure for standardizing the hours of labour in this country or adopting the eight-hour day.
Mr. H. A. MACKIE (East Edmonton); I desire to speak to this resolution more particularly on account of what took place in the dying hours of last session, when there was a great disturbance throughout the Dominion, and more particularly in the Western provinces. Having been solicitor for the United Mine Workers of Alberta for ten years, I was deluged at that time with letters and telegrams in connection with the trouble. I brought the matter before the ministers and asked what steps would be taken to meet the situation. The agitation at that time was for collective bargaining, but it also involved the question of wages and hours. I was advised by those in authority that collective bargaining was a provincial matter as it related to the question of wages and hours, and this Government "would take no steps to meet the demands of the people who were agitating at that time. On



the contrary, federal assistance was given to the provincial police authorities in quelling some disturbances which had arisen through the demands which are now embodied, in principle, in this resolution. Subsequently, and during the recess, I was advised through the medium of the press that as the Covenant of the League of Nations and the Treaty of Peace contained references to working hours that might be adopted all over the world, the Federal Government was ascertaining from the Supreme Court of Canada whether it was competent to legislate along the lines which had been demanded at the last session. I am also advised through the press that this Government has jurisdiction in these matters, and I was therefore surprised that in the speech from the Throne a matter of such great importance. to the welfare and stability of society in Canada was not referred to. One need give only a cursory study to the progress of labour matters in the Old Country as well as here to learn that labour has been exploited to the extent that in some cases it has sought a remedy by revolutionary methods. Fortunately those methods have not been adopted in Canada, for there has been a disposition on the part of the provincial and Federal governments to assist in every possible way. That very excellent piece of legislation, the Lemieux Act, passed by the late Liberal Government, has given great satisfaction all over this Dominion and has saved the people of this country from many difficulties. Now that we are engaged on.reconstruction, which is the word that is used to describe what is going on all over this world, it is only right that this Government should take steps of its own initiative to see that labour is given that measure of consideration which it has been demanding. Rather than adopt this resolution I should like to have the Ministers of the Crown announce that they intend to introduce a Bill this session along the lines suggested in the resolution.
The hon. member for Prescott (Mr. Proulx) has expressed the fear that a reduction in the hours of the working day will mean diminished production. That is an argument that has been advanced in all countries by those who oppose legislation such as is being sought by the labour people in Canada to-day. I have here a book published by Mr. John R. Common, Professor of Political Economy at the University of Wisconsin, in collaboration with Mr. John B. Andrews, Secretary of the American Association for Labour Legislation, after a very careful study of labour conditions in
[Mr. H. A. Mackie.1
America and elsewhere, and I find-page 202-the following statement:
Aside from their weaker physique, the "long day" is especially onerous for women workers because of the double burden of domestic duties and wage work which many of them carry. Ordinarily, men can rest when their day's toil is over, but there are few working girls who do not have at least mending and laundering to do in the evenings, and many married women must take the entire care of their homes and children before and after work.
Moreover,-*
And this is in answer to the remark of my hon: friend opposite-
Moreover, long hours do not necessarily make for the greatest economy and efficiency in production. It is sometimes argued that if hours are reduced output will decline proportionately. This might be true if human beings were mere machines and not living creatures who grow tired. But as a matter of fact the law of diminishing returns operates nowhere more strikingly than in regard to hours of labour. Studies of output before and after a shortening of hours show that where the human element enters into production, hour reductions by no means necessarily imply a decrease in output.
On motion of Mr. H. A. Mackie, the debate was adjourned.
At six o'clock the House adjourned, without question being put, pursuant to rule.
Thursday, March 11, 1920.