1920-06-18

REGULATIONS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT BORDEN (Prime Minister) moved:: That the Special Committee appointed to consider and report upon Bill No. 182, to amend the Customs Act, be granted leave to sit during the sittings of the House.
He said:	It is usual to have this done
upon a report of the committee, but I thought it might be convenient to have that authority at once.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. A. T. LEGER (Kent, N.B.):: I ask the Minister of Marine and Fisheries when the papers asked for by Order of the House dated May 27, in reference to the closing of the Life Saving Station at Richibucto Beach, N.B., will be brought down. I made the same inquiry last week, and the papers have not been brought down yet.
Sir ROBERT .BORDEN:	The Minister
of Marine and Fisheries has not yet entered the House. I shall acquaint him as soon as I can of the hon. gentleman's request.



SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (leader of the Opposition):: My right hon. friend
mentioned yesterday that possibly he would be able to inform us to-day when the Supplementary Estimates would be brought down.


Robert Laird Borden: The Minister
of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) has been so busy with other public business that he has not been able even to attend Council, but I will endeavour to get in touch with him to-day and inquire when the Supplementary Estimates will be brought down.



CIVIL SERVICE RECLASSIFICATION.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: On several
occasions the President of the Council promised he would let us know when we might expect the reclassification of the Civil Service, so far as it has already been completed, to be laid upon the table of the House.


Hon. N. W. ROWELL:: I expect the reclassification, that is, the list of positions under the head of C;vil Government, will be available on Monday.



OLD CHAMBLY FORT.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. JOSEPH ARCHAMBAULT (Chambly and Vercheres):: I call the attention of the Government to. a report in the press to the effect that the Government have decided to dispense with the services of the caretaker of the old Chambly fort.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. The hon. gentleman must certainly be aware that this is not the character of question that should be submitted on the Orders of the Day.
239)


Joseph Archambault: I bow to your
ruling, Sir, but may I submit that it is not a matter of my constituency only, because the old Chambly fort is a place of pilgrimage for all those interested in Canadian history?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: At best, the question
is not of such a character that it can be put on the Orders of the Day. The hon. member will have opportunity, on an item in supply, of submitting his question to the Government.



BOARD OF COMMERCE-RESIGNATION OF JUDGE ROBSON.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. S. W. JACOBS (George Etienne Cartier):: May I ask the Prime Minister
whether we may expect before prorogation the correspondence in reference to the resignation of Judge Robson?
iSir ROBERT BORDEN: I shall consult with the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) who is more familiar with that matter than I am. I hope to be able to do so in the course of the afternoon or to-morrow.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
Public Works-chargeable to income-Banff- repairs to bridge, $3,000.
["We shall have to go on as at present until we have this stamp.\nBill as amended reported.\nAt 6.30 o'clock the House took recess to meet at 8.30 p.m.\nAfter Recess.\nThe House resumed at eight-thirty o'clock."]
Mr. CAHILL:: Why is the Dominion Government building a bridge at Banff? Is it for the National park?	.


Mr. J. D. REID:: This is a re-vote for repairs to a bridge in the National park.


Frank S. Cahill: Has this expenditure been recommended by the Department of the Interior?


John Flaws Reid: Yes.


Mr. McKENZIE:: It looks like a provincial work.


John Flaws Reid: The Dominion Government has to look after the bridges in the national parks.


Mr. ROBB:: Hon. gentlemen all know that the Banff National park is owned and administered by the Dominion Government. It is perhaps one of the greatest sources of revenue that we have in that line in the western country. It attracts a lot of tourists, who leave a large amount of money with the railways, and with the residents. Undoubtedly the old bridge over the Bow

river requires repairing, and I think $3,000 is a moderate sum. But in view of the present condition of our finances I think the Government might hold up for a while, until labour is cheaper and the work can be done more economically. $100,000 is a lot of money for a new bridge that is to be built just about 30 or 35 feet west of the present one and I understand the abutments aire already in. Perhaps if we passed this item for repairs, the minister would promise not to go on with the new bridge for a while.


Mr. TWEEDIE:: I do not think we should strike out the item for the new bridge at that point because it is absolutely necessary. The bridge now being used is unsafe, and it is the duty of the Government to go ahead with the construction of a new one with the least possible delay. If we struck out this $100,000 item the new bridge could not be completed for two years. We want to get the heaviest part of the work done in the fall and winter when the water is low. There are no abutments there at the present time, so far as II know. Tenders were called for and the tender accepted was in the vicinity of $100,000, but that will not complete the bridge. This new bridge is an absolute necessity for the safety of the people who are using the park.


John Flaws Reid: As stated by the hon. member (Mr. Tweedie) this new bridge is an absolute necessity, and its construction has been strongly urged by the Department of the Interior. Before these Estimates were submitted to Parliament every oare was taken to strike out every item that we could possibly hold over for another year.


John Flaws Reid: Why is the Federal Government building a bridge in the province of Alberta? I understood that the province looked after its own highways.


John Flaws Reid: This bridge is on the private property of the Dominion Government at Banff. It is not a provincial matter at all.


Mr. McKEINZIE:: The minister says the bridge is on the private property of the Dominion Government. Can we in view of the state of our finances afford to expend $100,000 on a bridge on private property which we are not using? If there is any use of the park it must be by the people of the province and visitors to that province. There is no revenue coming to this Government from the park, I suppose.


John Flaws Reid: I cannot say as to that. While this park iis 'the private property of the Dominion Governmeht it is open to the public. The Provincial Government has no jurisdiction over the park or its roads and bridges. We could not ask the Provincial Government to assist us in building ja bridge in this park any moire than we could ask them to build a bridge over a stream on, the experimental farm at Ottawa, notwithstanding that many people in the province visit that farm.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I fail to see 'the analogy between the experimental farm at Ottawa and this territory in question. I understand that this park is a beautiful tract of land owned by the Dominion Government, but so far as I know the traffic over the bridge under discussion is altogether local. If the minister can satisfy me that lit its the duty of the Dominion Government to build, a bridge in that place, (that is another matter.


Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie: If the hon. member (Mr. McKenzie) would visit the town of Banff he would understand the situation. Banff town is under the jurisdiction of the Dominion Government (having been incorporated vnder an Act passed in 1887); which exercises over it 'the same rights as a municipal council exercise over other towns in the province. The Dominion Government own and operate the sewerage system and the water system; they own all the streets and boulevards; and they receive a revenue from the land, which i& leased for a term of years to the settlers. I do not think there is any question whatever as 'bo the absolute necessity for the .bridge, (which crosses the Bow river.
Air. MoMASTER: What is the population of Banff on both sides tributary to the (bridge?


John Flaws Reid: I do not know, but I
have been in Banff and it & quite a town.


Mr. McMASTER:: Quite a small town.


John Flaws Reid: It is a considerable .town. There are a good many thousand people there for many months of the year. If ithe hon. member has ever been in Banff he mupt know that the bridge is a neoes-jSity. 'The last time I was there (it was not in good condition. It is not a credit to the ^Dominion Government that the bridge should (be as it is.


Mr. BELAND:: Has the minister any
figures regarding the number of tourists who use this bridge.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: 
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: We were told last year by some hon. member from the West that there were solemn promises from the Prime Minister, not only once but half a dozen times, that the natural resources of the western provinces were to be handed over to the provinces. This is a natural resource, and I suppose that when it is handed over bridges and every other improvement will go with it. It is not very likely that we shall retain any parks if we pass over the natural resources to the provinces, and if that is to happen in the near future, I do not think it advisable for us to spend large sums of money upon property which may soon pass out of our hands. 'It would be interesting to know whether the income from this place is sufficient to justify us in this expenditure. I for one would be satisfied that any monies derived from that park should be devoted to the upkeep of its bridges and other necessary works, but if it is not sufficient the proposition is altogether different.


Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure):: 
Arthur Meighen: The bridges to which the hon. member refers would be new constructions. This is to take care of a construction that already exists. It is true that a new bridge is to be put up, but the traffic and all the other conditions that call for this expenditure have been created by the very fact of the bridge being there. Furthermore, the property is altogether our own property, for which this Government is directly responsible, and we are running a grave risk indeed if we keep there a bridge which is unsafe. The cases are wholly different. As regards a new construction, the statement made by the Minister of Finance, as related by the hon. member, is quite true. As to what the hon. member for North Cajpe Breton (Mr. McKenzie) says, the revenue derived from the parks does not go to the Dominion Treasury; it goes to the people of Canada in many ways. Railway traffic is developed, retail business is increased, and money is brought into the country and spent in many ways. The whole people get the advantage. As regards the handing 'back of these parks, I do not know that even on the return of the resources the provinces would desire the parks handed back. They are naturally a national rather than a provincial asset. They are the recreation grounds of the whole people. Indeed, at the provincial conference the suggestion that the parks should not become provincial property was, if I understand, acquiesced in generally by the provinces themselves.


Charles Marcil: The minister has only answered part of my question. Regarding the bridge at Campbellton, a

new structure was highly desirable, and the provinces were willing to contribute. But worl; on the wharf at Gascons, where there are 100 fishermen, was held off after the contract was awarded. Evidently the Government made a mistake in that because we have the same amount in the Estimates this year notwithstanding their declaration last year that there was no commercial necessity for the work.


John Flaws Reid: There were works that were not carried out last year on account of financial conditions. We have made a survey of all the works in connection with every item and it is the intention to proceed with these works as soon as the Estimates are passed for the reason that we believe they are of urgent necessity.


Frank S. Cahill: How is the town of Banff administered and what is the cost of administration?


Arthur Meighen: The town of Banff is administered by the Parks Branch of the Department of the Interior. Leases are given of the town properties and lots, and conditions are attached looking to the perpetuation of the beauty of the town and park. The town is laid out in the first place by town planners, and generally nothing can be done except under license or permit from the proper authority. A justice is appointed there under authority of the Governor in Council and before that justice cases are tried. I do not know what the arrangement is .between him and the judicial authority. The general lines of administration have not been altered in years, nor has the principle of maintenance and collection of revenue. Attempts have been made to reduce the levies, but we have not yielded except to do for returned soldiers in relation to the parks the same as is done by the provinces in the territory under their jurisidction.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Waghorn's Guide,
which I understand to be a standard work of its kind, gives Ithe population of Banff as 500.


Charles Marcil: All the year round?


Arthur Meighen: That is only in winter.
iMr. McMASTER:	I would imagine that
in summer there would be a large tourist traffic but I understand that moslt of the natural features of scenic beauty are on the same side as the hotel and that the bridge is nolt used by tourists to any great extent. That is my recollection of a visit

I paid there in exceedingly good company some five years ago.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. gentleman is
mistaken; the bridge is between the station and Ithe hotel. Everybody has to use it.


Charles Marcil: The hotel, I understand
is owned by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.


Arthur Meighen: There is the Canadian Pacific Railway hcftel and there is the Dr. Brett sanitarium. I do not know how many there are.


Andrew Ross McMaster: The minister says we
have to build this bridge to protect life. Any expenditure to protect life is justified but as a nation Ithat is desperately hard up, could hot the present situaltion be met by an expenditure of less than $100,000?


Arthur Meighen: I do not think a proper bridge could be erected for less than that sum. I was not anxious Ito spend a large sum and I was responsible for postponing the vote for two years but I thought I could not take the responsibility longer. The character of the. structure was thoroughly canvassed and we endeavoured to reduce the cost. A slightly cheaper bridge could have been built bult it would have been an unwise investment in the opinion of the officials in whom I have confidence and it would have been inappropriate to the character of the surroundings and the purpose of the bridge. It would have been an eyesore rather than an addition to the beauty of the park.


Mr. FIELDING:: The question raised by the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) concerning the policy of the Government in relation to bridges might well be considered in a broader way and perhaps at some more convenient time some clearer declaration might be made of the policy of the Government. International bridges, I take it for granted, would be a matter of arrangement between the Canadian Government and the Government of the United States. It may be that interprovincial bridges would also be a proper subject for the Dominion, but it is within my knowledge that a few years ago interprovincial bridges were refused aid by the Government, whereas bridges built within a province have been aided largely. I do not say this by way of criticism but difficulties arise as to the class of bridge that properly comes under the supervision of the Dominion Government and if at a convenient moment

the hon. gentleman could endeavour to draw the line a little more clearly it would probably prevent some discussion that would otherwise arise. Difficulties have arisen in the past because when a project for the building of a bridge was advanced somebody would say:	"There is no use
bothering about that; ithe Dominion Government will not do anything; it is a provincial undertaking." If we had some clearly defined line as to the responsibility of the Dominion and of the provinces it would be very helpful.	,


John Flaws Reid: The policy of the Government in the past-, and the same policy ie being pursued to-day, has been to assist i.n the construction of intenprovincial bridges, as for example the bridge between Ottawa and Hull; to build bridges over canals or public [works owned entirely by the Bo-minion; and to aid in the construction of international bridges.


William Stevens Fielding: In the case of a bridge being constructed partly for railway and partly for highway purposes-not being international, and not being interprovin-cial-would not the Government aid that construction in some cases?


John Flaws Reid: No, there has been no aid of -that bind. I can recall >a case, however, in 'the province oif Quebec, where, with respect 'to a bridge crossing -one of our own canals, aid was granted under arrangement made with the municipality.


Charles Marcil: The Victoria bridge 4s an example of such federal assistance.


John Flaws Reid: We have also given aid in the case of -a railway crossing' -a river. I remember that w,as done in the case of the Edmonton and Dunvegan railway, which -crosses some large Stream in 'the West. It was represented to us that the bridge wa-s going -to cost a million dollars and a subsidy was -asked ter. A special amount was voted for assistance in that case.


Charles Marcil: In the
case of the Victoria -and Gharl-e nagne bridges, highway bridges were -attached to those structures. Dominion -aid was given in both cases.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN:: Under the Railway Act there is a provision iter the Government 'to join with a municipality in constructing a large railway bridge, the municipality paying fits portion of 'the cost.


John Flaws Reid: The hon. member for Bonav-enture has referred to the Victoria bridge. If -my memory serves me correctly that bridge was built toy the Grand Trunk Company 'themselves, and they charge a toll for i-ts use.


Charles Marcil: The work was heavily subsidized by the Dominion.


John Flaws Reid: The reason ter that may have been that it crosses the St. Lawrence river.


Charles Marcil: The Charlemagne bridge crosses the Riviere des Prairies and a highway bridge was attached to it, and on that condition it received a Dominion subsidy. The same assistance has -been applied for to aid in building a bridge between Ste. Anne and Vaudreuil for the last twenty years to my knowledge. The hon. gentleman's predecessor in the administration of the Public Works Department (Hon. Mr. Monk) gave a pledge on behalf of the Dominion Government that they would contribute fifty per cent of the cost -of that bridge if the province would pay the difference, and that offer still stands.


John Flaws Reid: I cannot say what the late Mr. Monk promised with reference to a subsidy for that particular bridge. I know the place well and there is great need for a proper connection there. I think it is almost a disgrace to Canada that no bridge has been provided during the last forty v-ears. An automobile or a carriage desiring to cross at that point has to -be ferried on a scow. But that is an entirely provincial matter; I do not see why the Dominion Government should assist in the construction of such a bridge as that. As I already said, we have granted aid for construction of highway bridges in Quetoec, but only where they crossed a Government canal.


Charles Marcil: The Federal Government has a canal at Ste. Anne, and that was why the late Mr. Monk gave the pledge referred to.


John Flaws Reid: The proper way to give the needed accommodation at the point in question would be to attach a highway bridge to the present railway bridge. As I understand it, the railway company is quite willing to grant the necessary permission, but the authorities-either provincial or municipal-as I understand object to the expense. The expense would not be so awfully great, and I cannot understand why

the provincial authorities have not long ago provided a highway bridge there.


Mr. BOYER:: The Provincial Government have promised to subscribe fifty per cent of the cost of a new bridge at the point referred to provided the Dominion Government would do the same. The late Mr. Monk promised that the Federal Government would contribute its -share, not because the proposed bridge was interpro-vineial, but by reason of the fact that it would be a public utility. Under the circumstances, I do not see why the Government should not carry out the undertaking entered into by that gentleman. In the event of the Dominion and provincial authorities contributing toward the cost of a bridge at St. Anne the municipality of Isle Perrot will do its share.
A committee composed of some of the most influential men in the industrial and professional life of Montreal interviewed the Federal Government a few weeks ago to secure a grant towards the construction of this bridge, but they were told: " We have heavy commitments to meet and we must be economical." Well, we are ready to admit that principle of economy, but it should be applied impartially to every part of the country. If the Government is ready to build a bridge at Banff or anywhere else, presumably it is because it is a necessary public work. This bridge that I am asking assistance for is also a necessary public work, and therefore I submit the Government should treat it in the same way as it treats the Banff bridge* they should build it or contribute towards its cost. The Boards of Trade of Toronto and all the towns between Toronto and Montreal have sent resolutions to the Government recommending the construction of this bridge, and its importance and necessity is admitted generally. I do not know why the Government is so parsimonious in this particular case. I would suggest that it grant substantial financial assistance towards the construction of this very important bridge at Ste. Annes and Vaudreuil.


John Flaws Reid: I agree with the hon. member that the Ontario and Quebec municipalities have sent resolutions to the Dominion Government recommending the construction of this bridge. But they are not the only people who send resolutions when they want money expended that they should themselves expend. I cannot see why every time a bridge or some other work that is really a provincial undertaking is required that the Dominion Government should be
[Mr. J. D. Reid.l
called upon to build it. I have no recollection-and the deputy minister confirms me [DOT]-of any case where the Dominion Government have ever built or assisted to build what is really a provincial bridge and for which the Provincial Government alone is responsible. That being the case, if we place in the Estimates an item for this bridge, we are at once faced with further expenditures of the same character, for the provinces are frequently applying for federal assistance on the ground that the works contemplated involve a very large expenditure and the Dominion Government should assist the Provincial Government, and a grant .such as my hon. friend is now asking for would be used as a precedent for further demands on the Federal Treasury. This bridge is entirely a provincial matter.


Charles Marcil: It is across the canal at Ste. Anne's.


John Flaws Reid: Certainly the Federal Government should assist if this were a low level bridge. But a highway 3 p.m. bridge can be built at Ste.
Anne's without interfering with navigation in any way. The bridge is going to be a high level bridge. The hon. member shakes his head.


Gustave Benjamin Boyer: No.


John Flaws Reid: Of course, he can use the argument that it is to be a low level bridge, but I know the location well, and the connection required could be obtained at the least possible expenditure by simply putting a roadway between the Canadian Pacific and the Grand Trunk bridges. The hon. member may say that the bridge will be built across the canal to get the necessary item put in the Estimates, but I am sure no engineer would advise the building of such a bridge. I am convinced that the advice would be to take advantage of the two railway bridges and build the highway bridge between them.


Gustave Benjamin Boyer: We asked the Canadian
Pacific Railway Company and the Grand Trunk Railway Company for permission to construct a bridge betwen the two railway bridges. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company was ready to allow us to do so, but the Grand Trunk Railway Company refused. No doubt such a bridge would be less expensive, but, apart from the refusal of the Grand Trunk Railway Company it *is feared) that a highway between the two railway bridges would be very difficult to

keep open during the winter on account of the snow drifting there. If we go below the railway bridges we must cross the canal, and then the Federal Government should certainly pay. I wish to know if any assistance will be given.


John Flaws Reid: I would not want to agree to build a low level bridge that for all time to come we would have to maintain and operate over the canal. Of course, I am not putting my judgment against that of any engineers who may look over the situation, but my advice would be to build the bridge either between the two railway bridges or on either side of them. If the Canadian Pacific Railway are willing to agree to its bridge being made use of, I will take the matter up with the Grand Trunk Railway Company and see whether they too will agree to the use of their bridge so that the highway may be constructed between the two bridges.


Gustave Benjamin Boyer: There is another objection to building between the two railway bridges, and that is the great cost of building the approaches, which is a very serious objection. However, if the minister can convince thp Grand Trunk Railway Company of the feasibility of this highway bridge between the two railway bridges, I would like to know if the Government will help in any way towards the cost of construction. The first estimate was $300,000. The minister himself told me that we must add a large sum to that estimate. Supposing the bridge will cost $500,000, and the province of Quebec will contribute $250,000, then the municipalities would have to contribute the balance, if the Federal Government does not assist. But the municipalities are not able to do so. Already they have expended nearly a million dollars on improved highways, and in that way they are setting a good example to the country. The proposed bridge will be used not only for local traffic, but for interprovincial traffic, for this will be the connecting link of the provincial highways between Toronto and Montreal. Therefore it is only reasonable that we should have assistance from the Federal Government.


John Flaws Reid: The Quebec Government should take this matter up with the Ontario Government. This bridge is only a few miles from the main highway of the province, and if any contribution should be given, it certainly should come from the provincial governments and not from the Dominion Government. The hon. member
says that the Quebec Government will contribute one-half the amount.


Gustave Benjamin Boyer: Yes.


John Flaws Reid: From the information I have I understand that the local municipalities are ready to subscribe the rest.


Gustave Benjamin Boyer: No, but they will guarantee part of the cost,


John Flaws Reid: The municipalities are willing to do that provided they are allowed to collect tolls in repayment of the portion they contribute. That would settle the trouble. I -would suggest that the several local municipalities form themselves into a corporation to build this connecting link as a toll road and obtain powers under their charter to levy tolls until they have recouped themselves their capital expenditure. There is a heavy tourist traffic in this district and in this way they will be able to carry out their undertaking without seeking assistance from the Dominion Treasury.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Would the same policy apply to the bridge at Banff?


John Flaws Reid: The bridge alt Banff
is our own property, and we canont get any aid from the province of Alberta in connection with it.


Mr. LAFORTUNE:: The question of building the proposed bridges alt Ste. Anne and Vaudreuil has been a subject of discussion for the paslt fifty years. I remember years and years ago when the late Hon. Mr. Laflamme and the late Mr. Justice Girou-ard, who formerly represented Jacques Cartier, which I now have the honour to represent, were discussing the question of Ithose bridges. At every election contest, if one or the other was elected, he promised that he was certain to have the bridges constructed. The Hon. Mr# Laflamme was elected twice; the Hon. Mr. Girouard was eledted three times, but the bridges have not yet been constructed. I was elected for Jacques Cartier for the first time in 1911, having previously represented Montcalm, and I pledged my word of honour that if I were eledted, the bridges would be built. In that I followed the example of and the declaration given by the late Hon. F. D. Monk, when he represented Jacques Cartier. Every time he was elected from 1896 to 1911, the same promises were made, but no bridge has been built. The same difficulty has always arisen. I agree, perhaps for the first time, with the minister; he would do a great favour and

render great services to my electors if he would do what he has just stated should be done. I discussed the matter with the late Mr. Vallee, chief engineer of Quebec province, and he was of opinion that the two railway bridges now in existence are sufficiently strong to have a passerelle between them. In the present state of the finances of the country, I would suggest to the minister that that should be constructed so as to render a service to the electors of Jacques Cartier, Ste. Anne, Vaudreuil and all the surrounding country. When we are not able to get a full loaf, we are prepared to take half a loaf, and laiter on, when the Liberal party comes into power-and I hope that will not be very long-we shall be able to do something else. But for the present the minister should do what he has just stated, namely, try to help us to get that highway bridge constructed by using the two railway bridges already built. This is not a provincial question, because these two bridges are a matter of interest to the whole Dominion. The minister has built a very large military hospital at Ste. Anne, and my electors and I are very glad that he has done so. Millions were spent there and the expenditure was necessary. This is a Dominion military hospital receiving patients from every part of the Dominion, but how can you reach that military hospital at Ste. Anne when there is no bridge? Millions and millions of dollars were spent at Macdonald College at Ste. Anne, the best institution in the whole Dominion of Canada. The late Sir William Macdonald gave five or six million dollars to that college. In a few days we shall have an international agricultural concours there with representatives from every province, and in my opinion the Government should see that provision is made that Macdonald College, and the military hospital built by the Government, may be reached from every province. When the late Mr. Monk represented Jacques Cartier with so much honour to himself and with so much benefit to the electors of that constituency, he declared publicly in my presence at a large public meeting held in Jacques Cartier-and he was a man who never failed in his word-that the duty of the Federal Government was to do its best to have those two bridges built. I am sure that the minister will see that full justice is done to the electors of Jacques Cartier, not because I represent that constituency, not because I ask for this, but because it is a measure of simple justice to the 
travelling public of the Dominion of Canada.


Mr. KENNEDY (Glengarry and Stormont) :: Those bridges at Ste. Anne and
Vaudreuil are more or less national in their character on account of the traffic they would carry. A very important highway, certainly one of the most important in Ontario, is being constructed along the north shore of lake Ontario and down along the north shore of the river St. Lawrence to the Quebec boundary. Another is being projected from Ottawa to Montreal, and a third county-provincial highway is running midway between the river Ottawa and the river St. Lawrence, likewise leading to the Quebec boundary. Those three highways converge towards Ste. Anne and Vaudreuil where those bridges are projected. Montreal being the commercial metropolis of this country, those bridges will carry a very large tourist traffic coming from Ottawa, Toronto and points west, and on that Account, those bridges should be considered as more or less national in their character. The minister argues that this is a matter for the provinces to finance; he has pointed out that the province of Ontario should contribute something towards the building of those bridges; but I do not think that that province should be expected to assume any financial obligation as regards a bridge of that kind as it would be wholly within the limits of another province. In view of the nalture of the traffic which those bridges would be expected to bear, the Federal Government should assist in some degree towards the construction of those bridges. The -communities in thait portion of Ontario feel that those bridges will be a great benefit to this country in diverting through Onltario tourist traffic which now goes through the State of New York.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is it necessary to spend this $3,000 for repairs if we build the new 1 ridge at Banff.
Mr. ,1. D. REID: Yes, because it will be some time before the new bridge is ready.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Has there been a report that if these repairs were made the present bridge would do for this year?


John Flaws Reid: These repairs are required so that the old bridge can be used till the new. one is ready.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I never heard of a town being conducted by the Dominion Govern-

ment. It has come out incidentally that the town of Banff is conducted entirely under the supervision and control of the Department of the Interior. The people there must have schools and the usual institutions of a town. How is the money provided?


John Flaws Reid: The hon. member would find that information in the annual report of the Parks Branch, which is laid on the Table nvery year. Banff is not a new town. It has been in existence for twenty-five or thirty years.


Charles Marcil: Will $100,000 be the total cost of the bridge? Has the contract been awarded?


John Flaws Reid: No. Tenders were called for last year,'and $189,000 was the lowest submitted. We thought that too high.


Charles Marcil: Will the minister be able to keep within the ..$100,000?


Mr.  J. D. RETD@: I cannot say until new tenders are called for.


Charles Marcil: Then it may cost $200,000 or $300,000.


John Flaws Reid: I do>
not think it would be higher than the lowest tender we received before.


Mr. COPP:: What is the estimate of the department's engineer?


John Flaws Reid: 


Samuel William Jacobs: Will this bridge be constructed on a cost plus basis?


John Flaws Reid: No, by tender and contract.
Burlington Channel-new bridge, $100,000.


John Flaws Reid: This is to replace the bridge which was built in 1876 across the Burlington canal. The bridge has been repaired from time to time, but is now beyond repair. This canal is the only means of approach to Hamilton f-or vessels coming up lake Ontario. As many as 1,700 automobiles have been counted crossing this bridge within a period of three hours.


Henri Sévérin Béland: What is the size of the bridge?


John Flaws Reid: It is 155 feet long, and the counter balance, or shore part, 100 feet long. The apron is 18 feet. It is a swing bridge.
M:r. CANNON:	Has the work been
started?


John Flaws Reid: No, we have to call for
tenders. *


William Stevens Fielding: The item says "Burlington channel," but the minister speaks of Burlington canal. Is this channel a natural stream or a canal constructed by the Government?


John Flaws Reid: It is an artificial cut made by the Dominion Government through Burlington beach, so that vessels coming up lake Ontario can get into Hamilton.


Mr. CANNON:: Could not the bridge be built by the Provincial Government, and if not, why not?


John Flaws Reid: It is a Dominion work entirely.


Lucien Cannon: Is it going to be a toll bridge?


John Flaws Reid: No, and it never has been.
Mr. CR.ERAR: What are the conditions under which assistance will be given by the Dominion Government in building a bridge entirely within a province?


John Flaws Reid: St. Anne's bridge, for instance, is entirely within the province of Quebec on the main highway between Toronto and Montreal. Up to the present no Dominion Government has seen fit to aid in the construction of bridges that are entirely provincial.


Mr. CRERAR:: I think this is an important matter. My own view is that a bridge entirely within a province should be built by that province. Otherwise, there would be a manifest injustice done in some cases, and there would be many demands upon the Federal Government for assistance. Is there any settled policy in granting assistance of this kind when requests are made to the department?


John Flaws Reid: So far as the Deputy Minister of Public Works and I know, assistance has never been given by the Dominion Government in building a bridge entirely within a province. Assistance is only given in the case of -interprovineial bridges.
Mr. CRERAR *: On what basis is it given in the case of an interprovineial bridge?


John Flaws Reid: That principle was
established many years ago. The bridge ftom Ottawa to Hull, for instance, is interprovincial. We also adopted the principle

when the matter was international between Canada and the United States, as for instance in connection with the town of Ed-mundston. There are other instances that I cannot recall.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: One can understand why-assistance should be given to an international bridge, but that is in a different category from interprovincial bridges.


David Arthur Lafortune: About two years ago I sent to the department a petition from the city of Lachine asking for repairs to a certain small bridge on the Lachine canal, and since that time I have been endeavouring to get some action taken in the matter. This bridge is in a very dangerous condition. It is too narrow for the traffic, and there is not .real safety to the public who pass over it. A young girl fell into the canal and was half drowned because there was such poor protection on the bridge. I am informed that further petitions have been sent to the department urging for repairs to this bridge, and I shall be glad if the minister will tell me what the department intends to do.


John Flaws Reid: This is a matter that comes under the Railways and Canals Estimates, and when we are discussing those items I will have the deputy minister here and shall probably be able to give the hon. member more details than I could at this moment.
Capilano Biver, B.O.-Bridge-Contribution by Dominion Government, Provincial Government, and Municipality, each to contribute a like amount. 511,000.


William Stevens Fielding: Is this entirely within
the province of British Columbia?


John Flaws Reid: Yes. We need this
vote because we built at this particular place a dam which necessitates a bridge. This $11,000 is the Dominion Government's share of the cost of constructing the bridge over the river to replace the one damaged in January, 1018.


William Stevens Fielding: Was the dam built for Dominion purposes?


John Flaws Reid: The deputy minister
tells me it was built for Dominion purposes, and for that reason we are asked to contribute to the cost of building the bridge.
Mr. iCEERAR: In this case the building of the dam made the bridge necessary?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Will the minister more fully explain the necessity for this item?


Mr. J. D. REED:: By building the dam we diverted the water of the Capilano river into the channel and this made the bridge necessary.
Dominion-roads and bridges generally, $5,000.


John Flaws Reid: This is a general vote in case we require any unforeseen work done.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: How much will be assigned to the province of Quebec?


John Flaws Reid: We shall spend the money wherever it is required.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I wish to say something in regard to the condition of a road in my county, the county of Charlevoix, Montmorency down the lower St. Lawrence. Last year a Bill was introduced by the Federal Government giving a certain amount of money to the different provinces for the building of public highways of an interprovincial character. The circumstances in connection with the county I have the honour to represent are somewhat peculiar. As far as St. Joachim, about thirty miles below Quebec, there is a good provincial highway; but for years past communication between that place and Baie St. Paul in the county of Charlevoix and other places further down has always been by way of a highway through the bush, which has been maintained by the different parishes in that district. I am of the opinion that a highway of this kind falls within the category of the public highways which the Government purposes to build between the different provinces. Between St. Joachim and Baie St. Paul there is absolutely no proper communication by land except by way of the Quebec and Saguenay railway, and if people wanted to travel by motor or any other vehicle owing to some accident to the railway or in the winter they would have to use the old highway, which is in good condition sometimes but which is not by any means satisfactory. Now that the Government is contemplating spending the moneys voted for public highways between the provinces, I submit'that it would be only reasonable that a certain sum should be devoted to this part of the country. I am told that the Provincial Government has submitted to the Federal Government a plan of a certain proposed highway, from St. Joachim to St. Simeon, and perhaps the Government can say if there is going to be this year any appropriation in connection with this work.


John Flaws Reid: This $5,000 is for the
purpose of repairing a number of bridges in the different provinces. There are some in Nova Scotia, Quebec and Ontario. With reference to the question of public highways, there was a vote of $20,000,000 passed for this work in the different provinces. The provincial governments make plans of the highways they want and submit them to the Dominion Government. We consider them with our officials and if we are satisfied with them we agree to the 40 per cent. But the Dominion Government does not dictate as 'to where the money is to be spent, once having agreed to the plan. As to a special vote for the particular locality mentioned by the hon. member, it strikes me that this is almost entirely a provincial matter. At any rate, the Dominion Government would not consider any expenditure unless the Provincial Government were prepared to subscribe, and it is for them to submit plans to us.


Frank S. Cahill: Under this item I wish to bring to the attention of the minister a certain district in the county of Timiskaming where the Dominion Government built a dam on the Quinze lake for the conservation of the Ottawa river waters. I understand that the township disclaim the responsibility for maintaining this work, and certain residents in the township of (Latchu-lippe, in the county of Timiskaming, are suing the county for damages to their property by reasons of a flood. There seems to be a question of jurisdiction as to who is responsible. They have asked me to take the matter up with the Government and I have communicated with the Public Works Department. As there has been a suit against the county of Timiskaming I wish ithe minister would be good enough to take 'the matter into fails consideration At as early a date as possible and 'tell the people 'there whether he is going to maintain the road, which is in the nature oif a dam holding hack (the Water in Quinze lake, or whether it will be a matter foT the province and 'the county to- look after.


John Flaws Reid: The department are now looking into it. Where there is any douibt as to whether the department is responsible, we must 'take the advilce of the Department of Justice. The deputy minister tells me the matter is under investigation and as soon as possible we iwill get the hon. gentleman a report in regard to the position the department will have to take.
North Timiskaming'-to complete erection of bridge superstructure and repairs to substructure, Quebec Government to contribute, $15,000.
t Mr. CRERAR: On what grounds is assistance given to this particular bridge?


John Flaws Reid: lit is ihiterprovineial.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Is it given to every interprovincial bridge?


John Flaws Reid: Yes, in every case where it is an interprovincial bridge 'the Dominion Government assists it to a certain extent. Agreements are made as to the amount Ithe Government should contribute. In 'thils ease we are contributing $15,000.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Quebec is contributing $15,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Quebec is contributing $15,000 according to information given in the item.


Mr. HARRISON:: Iis not this 'bridge entirely in the province of Quebec?


John Flaws Reid: Yes, I am informed that it is entirely in the province of Quebec, right at the 'border.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not want to oppose the principle otf aiding interprovincial bridges hut I would not like the statement that was made by the minister to remain junchallenged; that i't is the policy (of the Dominion Government to aid bridges of an interprovincial character. I know of cases in which the Government a't Ottawa not only declined to give any aid hut charged .the provincial governments a duty on the bridge material.
, Mr. BELAND: Thits is an exception to the rule. The Government of Quebec is 'the only provincial government that is rioheT than the Dominion.
Ottawa-Hull, new bridge, to replace present union bridge over Ottawa River below Chau-diere, $34,000.


Mr. PROULX:: Is that bridge finished?


John Flaws Reid: Yes.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: I want to refer to the bridge at Grand Etang in the county of Inverness. An application was made some years ago to get a new harbour opened up there by cutting out a channel in the beach. The work was completed in 1911 and a channel widened, taking in the basin from the entrance to the present bridge, so as to accommodate the fishermen. The fishing industry has grown to be a very large and important industry in that locality, and there is no room to accommodate the in-

creasing number of boats. Would it not be possible for the minister to have the present 'bridge moved up to the narrows? He has to construct a new bridge there in a short time. If he would have the bridge moved up to the channel and dredge the basin above the present landing, it would afford much needed accommodation to the fishermen. Under the present conditions it is impossible for the fishermen to get anchorage for their boats, and the further development 'of the industry is paralysed *as a result. There are always a number of boats awaiting accommodation at this point. Two large fishing firms are established there now and others will follow when we get anchorage space for boats. The dredge is operating at Margaree; it will be through in a couple of months, and Grand Etang is only nine miles from Margaree. If the minister would consider this it would be a solution of the matter. He has to build a bridge there soon and if he would undertake the removal of the bridge up to the narrows it would not cost very much, and it would give ample room for the large number of boats there. If he would have this work provided for in the Supplementary Estimates and build the bridge, the dredge could be taken down there when the work is completed at Margaree.


John Flaws Reid: I have had a report on that made lately at the pressing request of the hon. member (Dr. Chisholm), and I find that the dredging and the building of a bridge would cost $50,000 or $60,000. We are considering the items in connection with Supplementary Estimates, as promised the hon. member. I do not know whether the report is such that we may have to let the work stand or whether we may have to do it. However, as far as the dredging is concerned, that may be done, but we will look into it and see what can be done.


Alexander William Chisholm: It would really cost that much to dredge the whole space between the present bridge and the narrows, but if a channel were cut through so as to enable boats to go up above the present bridge, after the bridge is removed, it would not cost more than $5,000 or $6,000 to do the dredging, and the completion of the dredging could be done next season. The work is most urgent if fihe Government desire to assist the fishermen. I have discussed this matter with the department every session since 1912 and put the facte in their possession and convinced them of the great urgency for this improvement.


Charles Marcil: I would like the minister to call the attention of the superintendent of highways in his department to the matter which I am about to mention. The Dominion Government have given the provinces the means of constructing highways. The Dominion Government aid provincial bridges. We have such a bridge over the Restigouche river at Meta-pedia. Having that bridge we must get to it from the highway. The Dominion Government is interested in seeing that the approaches to interprovincial bridges are in such a condition that they can be used. In the county of Bonaventure for a distance of thirty -miles you approach this interprovincial bridge over what is the main highway between New Brunswick and Quebec. The road, in that 30 miles, traverses an unorganized territory. During the last Parliament Mr. Boulay secured from the Dominion Government $10,000 to begin the work of improving that 30 miles of road leading to the interprovincial bridge. The work has been left uncompleted. I understand that it now rests with the provincial government to decide what highways are to be built in a province. As this work has been begun by the Dominion and as it leads to an interprovincial bridge constructed by the Dominion-the old intercolonial railway bridge-as it is the main highway between New Brunswick and Quebec-because you cannot reach New Brunswick by road, you cannot go from New Brunswick to Quebec, or vice versa, excepting through the Metapedia valley-and as this thirty miles of road remains uncompleted, I would ask the minister to get the Commissioner of Highways to give consideration to this question so that authority may be given to the Quebec Government to build this last thirty miles of road when we would have an uninterrupted highway between Quebec and New Brunswick over this interprovincial bridge. At the present time this bridge which would be of immense value as a means of communication between the two provinces is not used to any extent because the thirty miles referred to are unfinished. The work was commenced by the Dominion but has been abandoned. The provincial authorities have done nothing, and there the matter rests. In view of the work being of a Dominion character, the Commissioner of Highways should take the matter up and see if he cannot get the province to complete the unfinished thirty miles. Then this highway bridge could be opened up and connection established between the two provinces.



John Flaws Reid: I shall take the matter up with the Commissioner of Highways and see what can be done.


David Arthur Lafortune: Will an opportunity be afforded of discussing the question of the small repairs to the Lachine Locks Bridge?


John Flaws Reid: An opportunity will be afforded when the Canal Estimates are taken up in the early part of next week.
Dredging, Maritime Provinces, $500,000.


Auguste Théophile Léger: I would ask the minister if there is any amount in this large item for dredging in the following rivers in my constituency in the province of New Brunswick: St. Louis, St. Charles, Molus, and Kouchibouguac? I also wish to know if there is any appropriation for dredging the harbour bar of the Richibucto river. A number of these small rivers are used by fishing boats, and also by scows for transporting mud fertilizers to the farmers, and dredging operations are urgently needed in order to improve navigation. The resident engineer has visited these places at different times and I would like to know if any provision has been made in this appropriation for carrying out this much needed work.


John Flaws Reid: Out of this vote of $500,000 the sum of $475,388 is required to pay for the operation of the 'Government plants in the Maritime Provinces, leaving a balance of $24,611 to be expended on works of various.kinds for which contracts will have to be let by public tender. I have a memorandum before me of the dredging work that is planned, but I see no reference to the rivers which the hon. member has mentioned. Of course the dredges are sent where they are most urgently needed in the interest of navigation. The list of rivers which the hon. member has mentioned will appear in Hansard, and I will take the matter up with the deputy minister and see how urgent the work there is, as compared with that called for at other points in the province.


Auguste Théophile Léger: 
John Flaws Reid: There are many important harbours on the Atlantic coast, and we. have a number of dredges which we are, during the present year, using to their fullest capacity at the most important points.


Charles Marcil: What is contemplated being done in the Restigouche river in Quebec this year?


John Flaws Reid: In the Restigouche
river, N.B., we expect to do some dredging in the channel.
(Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure): Restigouche river is in Quebec also.


John Flaws Reid: This is for Restigouche river in New Brunswick. We are sending dredge P.W.D. No. 3 there.
Mr. iMAROIL (Bonaventure): Is the department doing any dredging at 'Cross Point, Quebec, on the Restigouche river? The department has done some dredging there before.


John Flaws Reid: We may do it. I cannot say just now.
Mr. SINiGLAIR (Antigonieh and Guys-borough): There is one very urgent case, Port Hilford, on the southern coast of the province of Nova IS-cotia. The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) has been endeavouring to arrange for a call at that port by the S.S. Scotia which plies between Halifax and the eastern ports 240
of the province; but dredging has been neglected at Port Hilford to such an extent that the owners of the steamer say that it is now impossible for them to make the call owing to the fact that the mud and sand have accumulated so much at the .public wharf that there is not sufficient water there for the boat at low tide. For several years no attention has been paid to the dredging at that port, and the consequence is that if the matter is not attended to, the call of the boat will have to be abandoned and that would be a very serious matter for the people of that locality. Port Hilford is a flourishing village, the headquarters of considerable settlement and also the headquarters of the fishing industry. It is very important that a boat should call there, but that will be impracticable unless dredging is done. I mention the matter, so that the minister can give instructions to his officials to see that it is not neglected.
, Mr. J. D. REID: I shall -have -a note made ,and bring the matter to the attention- of the officials of 'the department. We have some ten dredges that belong entirely 'to the lower provinces; and as I stated a few moments ago, I 'have Ito- depend almost absolutely on the judgment of employees of 'the department -as Ito- -where i's the most important work that Should -be done. They submit .reports, and I 'think the bon. member will agree that dredges should be used only at ,points where 'they are most urgently needed. I -shall, ho-wever, bring 'the matter to the attention of the officials of the department in order ito -see if something can be done.


Mr. DUFF:: In order to show my constituents that I am not neglecting their interests, I should like 'to refer for -a few (moments to important dredging that should .be done -alt Ri-verport and Lunenburg. I have already taken -the- matter up with the officials of the department, and whilst no dredging has yet been done, I must say that the officials have given me every courtesy and the matter th-eir 'consideration. In the interest of imy constituents and in the .interest of the fishing business, which the minister knows is, in my 'constituency, *the largest in Canada, I should like the -department at the earliest (possible moment *to see that this dredging work ils done at both Lunenburg and Rliverport.


John Flaws Reid: Dredge No. 15 is to do some work at Lunenburg; and at Riverpo-rt, .a good deal of work is to be d-one by dredge No. 5, the Northumberland.
REVISED EDITtON


Mr. J. D. BEID:: I have not seen the
papers in connection with the dismissal of Mr. Scammell, hut my information is than at the time Of his dismissal he had only been on leave of absence one week. He was then alt Halifax, I believe, in training. There were charges made against Mr. Scammell, and it was on the recommendation of the assistant engineer, Mr. Du-fresne, who is not now in the employment of the department, that Mr. Scammell was dismissed. At different times when I was Acting Minister of Public Works I came in contact with Mr. Dufresne, and I have the greatest confidence in him. I always found him a thoroughly reliable and honourable man. If my information is correct, there is not a member on either side of this House who would not admit when the facts were laid before him that Mr. Scammell's dismissal was perfectly justified. If the hon. member does not know the reasons why Mr. Scammell was dismissed I shall be very glad to give them to him, so that he will have an opportunity at some future time when the Estimates are up of saying whether or not he thinks his dismissal was justifiable. I am informed that Mr. Scarn-mell has been given the reasons for his dismissal and has all the information, and if 240*
he has not already given it to Ithe hon. member he certainly should have done so before asking him to bring this matter up in the House.


Arthur Bliss Copp: If that information was in the office of the Minister of Public Works, how does my hon. friend explain the letter written by the Hon. Mr. Carvell, who admits that a great wrong was done to Mr. Scamimell?


John Flaws Reid: I would take it that Mr. Carvell, who had only been in office a few days before he wrote the letter, did not know the circumstances, but knew Mr. Scammell. Afterwards, on looking over the file, he no doubt came to the conclusion that Mr. Dufresne, or whoever made the recommendation for Mr. Scammell's dismissal, was perfectly justified by the facts. Mr. Scammell was dismissed in January, 1916, or almost two years before the Hon. Mr. Carvell became Minister of Public Works. 1 have no objection whatever to letting my non. friend see the file respecting Mr. ScammelPs dismissal.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I thank my hon. friend for the opportunity of examining the file, but if there has been no investigation the file is of very little service, because on the one hand there will be the statements of the department, and on the other Mr. Scam-mell's statements, and I might feel that he had the best of the argument. Irresepective of that, I say that this man was given leave of absence to go overseas, and if he did not come up to, the requirements of a district engineer, it seems strange that that was not found out during the eighteen years he was with the department, instead of a week after his enlistment. At all events, he enlisted under a contract practically signed, sealed and delivered, that he was entitled to his pay while overseas. That was the promise made to him immediately he enlisted. My hon. friend says that within a week after he had been granted leave of absence-I did not know, that it was so. short a time

as soon as he had turned his back on the department and donned the King's uniform to carry out his part of the contract, the Minister of Public Works, through his deputy or some other official, summarily dismissed him, leaving him to fight his own way after eighteen years service to his country. If he was incompetent a week after he enlisted, he was incompetent at some period of the eighteen years he was in the public service.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Some years ago the Department of Public Works did some dredging in Little Bras d'Or in the county of Cape Breton to enable ships to get to a new mine opened up along that arm of the sea. The dredging was almost completed some years ago, but I believe it still requires a few touches to make the channel absolutely safe. No doubt the minister knows that in connection with these harbours and channels a record must be made of the depths of the water at the different entrances I understand from information received either from the Department of Marine or from some other source that this record has not yet been madie in the case of Bras d'Or harbour, which consequently is not listed. The navigators therefore have not the information as to the depth of water which is requisite for the vessels of which they have charge. I would bring to the attention of the minister the fact that the work necessary to be done there is very slight and the report should be made to the Marine Department so that the proper record might be made. The minister probably understands the situation. If you go to a captain in Halifax who has charge of a vessel and ask him to go to Bras d'Or he will ask you what the depth of the water is. The place is not listed and though, as a result of dredging, the depth is now 22 feet, he will turn up his existing record which shows 8 feet,' and it will be useless for you to tell him that the depth is really 22 feet. He will stand by the record he has. lit is therefore necessary to have a proper official' record as to the condition of the harbour. During the last eight or nine years the depth of the water has been sufficient, but the necessary record has not been made; and I would ask the minister, in conjunction with the department, to make the necessary record of that harbour. I might also remind the minister that some little dredging was done around the piers of Nova Scotia, notably at North Sydney, last fall. But the winter came on and the work has not been finished. Would it be possible during this summer to complete what was begun at North Sydney last year?


John Flaws Reid: With reference to the work at Sydney


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There is Sydney and there is North Sydney. Which does the minister mean?
Mr. J. D. iREID: Work will be done at both North Sydney and 'Sydney this year.

With reference to the work at Bras d'Or, I have not the details with me at the present moment, but I will have a memorandum made for the engineering staff to see if we can have the work done this year. The point raised by my hon. friend that the work done by the Government in harbours should be made public is an important one. I am informed by the deputy minister that every year a list of the various depths is sent to the Marine Department, whose duty it is to advertise any changes that have been made in the harbours and channels. I understand that they do this, and if there has been any omission in this respect I should think the Marine Department would be responsible and not the Public Works Department. I am under the impression that the Marine Department has advertised these changes, but II will bring the hon. member's point to the attention of that department to ensure that the necessary information shall' be given to the public.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I have always understood that the major part of the work was done at Bras d'Or but that there are a few lumps here and there that have not been quite cleaned out, and for that reason it was impossible for the Marine Department to make with certainty any record as to what the depth was. If they put on the record that there is a clear channel of a certain depth and width, that statement must be a positive fact; it will not do to say that part of the channel is clear but that there are lumps in the middle where a ship might ground. I understand that there were parts here and there in that very important harbour which were not quite finished and consequently the Marine Department could not make a complete record.


John Flaws Reid: Of course, if there is
ne lump not cleared away the channel can only be listed at the lower depth, and therefore the hon. member is quite right when he says that the department could not make a record of the increased depth. I have had the deputy minister make a note to see just what the trouble is in connection with the place, and if there are any lumps they certainly should be cleared away at the earliest possible moment. We shall take a note of the matter and try to have the work done this year.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It was stated here
yesterday that it is a matter of great importance and urgency that coal should be freely transported. Now, there is an important coal mine on this harbour, but all shipping of the coal is done by rail. There

can be no shipments by water until there is a clear channel. I refer to the Bras d'Or Coal Company. One of our friends, Senator Currie, is largely interested in it.
Dredging-Ontario and. Quebec, $450,000.


Charles Marcil: What do
you intend doing in Quebec province under this item?


John Flaws Reid: The following is a list of the places at which work will be done: Port Alfred (Quebec), Saguenay River, Three River, St. Denis (Quebec), Vaudreuil, River St. Francis.


Charles Marcil: Is this new work, or a continuation of work already begun.


John Flaws Reid: Mostly work we have
begun.


Charles Marcil: Dredging
is provided in the Bay of Chaleur for the Maritime Provinces, but none is provided for Matane, 'Gascons and Rimouski in Quebec, with a shore line of 400 miles. These places have been asking for dredging for many years. I was sorry to see a letter from the minister a few days ago in reply to a request for the dredging of the Bonaventure river, stating that he was unable to do any work this year. This work was commenced some years ago. I sent a letter to him from Angus Maclean, who is in charge of the work at Bathurst, saying that as soon as entrance could be had into the mouth of the Bonaventure river operations could be commenced. I am isorry that the minister cannot see his way to continue the work already commenced there. Bonaventure river is one of the most important rivers in that part of the province. The timber limits tributary to it are very valuable and the constituency is practically tied up for want oif this work. I trust the minister will give the matter his serious consideration.


John Flaws Reid: All right.


Charles Marcil: If the
minister could send one of his dredges from New Brunswick across the bay to continue this work and to permit these boats to enter the mouth of the Bonaventure river so that these mills could be started up again and the limits operated, because they are amongst the most important in Eastern Quebec, it would be greatly in the interest of the people of that part of the country.
iMr. J. 'D. REID:	I will take it up with
the officials and see if it is possible.


Charles Marcil: Does the
minister contemplate appointing a resident engineer permanently for Bonaventure county?


John Flaws Reid: No.
Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure) I had an answer from the minister the other day that Mr. Trudeau was acting temporarily at the present time.


John Flaws Reid: We cannot make any permanent appointments at present.


Charles Marcil: I am not
urging a permanent appointment but I would like to know the policy of the Government. Is it the intention to discontinue these resident engineers? In my constituency where there has been no work for the last ten years, I have often wondered why a resident engineer should be kept.
IMr. J. D. REID: The policy of the department is to cut down the number of resident engineers. We have thirty-one districts in the Dominion and the policy of the Government is to cut them down about half. We are not going ahead with new works and we have quite a number of employees that we cannot find work for. We do not want to undertake new work on account of the financial situation. We have some old men who have been with the department for fifteen or twenty years and it seems hard to allow them to go without providing them at any rate with a few months' pay. There are a few who are fifty-five or sixty years of age and it has been a worry to us to see how we could be just and fair to these men who are good servants of the department. But circumstances have arisen under which we have no work for them. We have a Bill on the Order Paper, if it would only go through, by which we could treat them fairly on their retirement after their very long service.


Charles Marcil: While the minister is looking into the dredging situation in Bonaventure he might ask his official to inquire into the state of affairs at New Carlisle. There is a splendid wharf at that point but it is filled up with sand. The Meig's Pulp Company of New York which has been carrying on the business of exporting pulpwood would like to use this wharf but it had to stop operations last year on account of not being able to utilize it. Unless there is some dredging now the wharf cannot be utilized at all which would be unfortunate because it cost a lot of money. New Carlisle is the shire town of the county and it is

regrettable to think that a public wharf remains unused because of the want of a few hundred dollars being spent on dredging.


John Flaws Reid: I will look into it.


William Stevens Fielding: The minister spoke of making some changes in the engineering staff. I understand that nothing has been done?


John Flaws Reid: That is right.


William Stevens Fielding: The matter is open for consideration?


John Flaws Reid: 
John Flaws Reid: This is the first I knew of this -situation.' I shall take the matter up (with the officials of the department -an-d see what is necessary to- be done and what action we can take during the present year.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I .thought, while the minister w-as answering the hon. member for Bo-n-aventure i(Mr. Marcil) I heard him mention some places- where dredging, should be done -and among them the river- St. Francois. If (that -is true I would thank him for hi-s attention to -that part of -the County, (because recently demands have been made by -the people for -certain dredging to be done i-n order to accommodate schooners -and siai-l boats. I have received communications stating that the entrances to St. Simeon's Bay and Baie Roeher near the Saguenay river are in such a bad -condition that schooners and steamboats are unable to enter safely. (There is a great pulp industry in- that part of the country and in ' order that steamers, steam barges, sail boats and schooners may -be able -to go there day in and day out it is absolutely necessary that certain work he done immediately. 1 would be glad -if the Government could see its way dear to doing something in that line.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: Regarding the statement of the hon. member for Regina with

respect to the waters of Last Mountain Lake if I understood him correctly he said that the water of the lake was six feet deeper than it should be. I cannot concur in the hon. member's statement.


Mr. COWAN:: I said it was six feet deeper than it naturally was.


John Frederick Johnston: Well, it is not too deep at the present time. Last Mountain Lake is the only body of water in central Saskatchewan, and it provides a pleasure resort for the people in all that part of the country. While what the hon. member said, as to the water being held from off certain lands in the valley may be true, I think it is a matter that the Government should carefully consider before they take any steps to do away with the dam. Last year a move was made along the line suggested by the hon. member for Regina, and the other side of the question was put up to me as this lake is located in the constituency that I have the honour to represent. A largely signed petition was sent to me against any move towards lowering the water in Last Mountain lake and therefore I would advise the minister to thoroughly investigate the matter before he undertakes to do anything on the representations as made by the hon. member for Regina.


Walter Davy Cowan: Will you permit me, Mr. Chairman, to speak again for just a minute. There is no intention of attempting to lower the level of Last Mountain lake and I do not wish to take the dam away. I did not say that and I want the hon. member to withdraw the statement. What I said was that I wanted a dam put in there with sluices in it so that the water could be regulated and let out what is necessary for the farmers below. That is all that is asked. I hope the hon. member will be more careful and not put into my mouth words that I did not use.	,


John Frederick Johnston: The hon. member is getting unduly excited. I did not state that he had said the dam should be taken away; if he wall read my remarks in Hansard tomorrow he will see that I did not. What I did say was that the minister should not pay too much attention to the representations that were made by the hon. member for Regina in his remarks. I said that the hon. member from Regina had said that some people had asked that this dam should be blown up; to this I took exception and that is all I stated.


Walter Davy Cowan: I am very pleased to see that the farmer representative is looking
after the interests of the pleasure-seekers around Last Mountain lake instead of the farmers in the Qu'Appelle valley.


John Frederick Johnston: I do not wish to continue the controversy with the hon. member for Regina.


Walter Davy Cowan: You had better not.


John Frederick Johnston: As far as that is concerned I think I can take care of myself, but the point is this: As I have said Last Mountain lake is a pleasure resort not only for the people in the towns and cities in that country but also for the farmers who like a day of recreation once in a whale; and if any harm has been done to the farmers in the Qu'Appelle valley others may have been recompensed to a probably larger extent and the matter should be thoroughly investigated before any change is made.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It seems to be a ques

 tion of something like dynamics that the hon. member for Regina has given us. I can quite understand that a dam would stop water until it got to a certain level, but after reaching the height of the dam would not the water go over its edge and run into the valley below?


Walter Davy Cowan: 'To a very limited extent. The water has been raised, and that is what I have been trying to impress upon the committee, to six feet above its natural level.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: And then would not the water run over the dam?


Walter Davy Cowan: It would if there was any left. But the dam is there and it carries the water into the lake. By the time it has got into the lake there is no water left to any extent in the Qu'Appelle river and there is practically none for the farmers below. I wish it to be distinctly understood that vested interests have been created by the establishment of a large number of pleasure resorts on that lake. I am not wishing those interfered with at all, and the engineering process which I recommend will not have that effect. It will not lower the level of the lake at all, the water can be retained and only such a flow released as will be required for the farmers below.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I can quite understand the hon. member's persistency.


Walter Davy Cowan: I am Scotch.
Mr. McKENZIlE: But on account of the flow of water they have there the laws of gravitation do not seem to be the same in that part of the country as elsewhere.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: May I ask what
dredging it is proposed to do in the province of Manitoba this year?


Mr. J. D. HELD:: There is the Red river (St. Andrews); Winnipeg beach; Red river (Sugar Point); Selkirk (Blue channels) ; [DOT] Winnipeg channels, the Pas, the Winnipeg-osis, Snake island, Selkirk, the Forks, the entrance channel to Red river.
Dredging, British Columbia-?4'00,(K)0.


John Flaws Reid: I understand the Minister of Finance wants to go on with some of his Bills, .and therefore I move that the committee rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again this day.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and progress reported.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Sir Henry Drayton (Minister of Finance) Bill No. 183 to amend the special War Revenue Act 1915, was read a second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-Stamp tax, bills and notes, etc.
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: I move that the further consideration of this clause be postponed and that we proceed to the consideration off clause 2 which deals with the luxury tax.
Motion .agreed to.
On section 2-New excise taxes, etc.


Henry Lumley Drayton: X would like to move in view of the other increases which have been made and in order to bring the prices properly into line, that the item as to caps be changed so as to provide for the taxation of caps in excess of $3 in place of $2.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Andrew Ross McMaster: Might I ask the minister whether he does not think that the word " neckwear " in the item:
Neckties and "neckware" and scarfs men's and boys', in excess of one dollar and fifty cents each.	,	|
is not a little ambiguous, unless it has some special meaning given to it in the Cus-itome schedule? I aim afraid that possibly it might be interpreted to mean collars.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There are very few over


Andrew Ross McMaster: But at the rate prices are climbing no one knows when a very high collar may sell at -a very high price.


Mr. PEDLOW:: With reference to the item:
Kimonas, petticoats and waists in excess of twelve dollars each;
There is also another item on page 7, lime 27, which reads as follows:
Silk clothing, including artificial silk clothing, not elsewhere specified1;
The item now under consideration refers to petticoats and waists in excess of twelve dollars each. A large proportion of these articles are now made of silk, amid you will notice that the other item I refer to deals with silk clothing not elsewhere specified. In view of the fact that so much of this line of merchandise is made of silk, it will follow that all silk waists and petticoats will come under the latter item. I would suggest that the words. " petticoats .and waists .made of silk and other material" be inserted to avoid any difficulty in determining which of these two items will apply.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I beg to assure my bom. friend1 that as matters, now stand1 all kimonos and waists whether silk or otherwise under twelve dollars are not taxed. The exception in that instance is not made in connection with silk kimonos, although we have made it in connection with dresses.


Mr MARCIL (Bomiaventure):: 
Henry Lumley Drayton: It is the result of investigation. Retail prices iare many in number .anJd they differ just as. widely as the weather and as suddenly sometimes, amid with even less reason.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: 
Henry Lumley Drayton: If my hon.
friend will turn to page 9 he will see how

we deal with dresses. For example, "misses' and women's dresses, except silk, in excess of $45 each." As silk kimonas are not excepted, that is, when made of silk which is otherwise specially provided for, they must he free of taxation. The same rule applies throughout.
Mr. MeMA-STER: This law will have to be interpreted by several hundred thousand merchants, many of whom will not be accustomed 'to interpreting 5 p.m. technical documents. Might I suggest that when the law is finally passed the Department of Finance prepare and issue a book giving examples of just how these taxes will work out?


Henry Lumley Drayton: We intend to get out directions of the plainest possible kind in the form of large cards which may be hung up so that any one can tell at a glance how'these taxes apply.


Charles Marcil: Will the minister see that these are printed in both languages and distributed wherever there is any considerable French population?


Henry Lumley Drayton: With much pleasure.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: For the sake of correctness I would suggest that instead of the words "hose or stockings" the correct trade term toe used, namely, "hosiery." Hose refers to rubber hose for gardens and fire reels. It is a mere matter of detail, but when framing the Bill we may as well be correct.


Mr. LALOR:: The hon. member from Renfrew (Mr. Pedlow) is a dry goods man of long experience, and I would suggest to him that "half hose" would toe the proper term.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I stand corrected. It should toe half hoise for men and hosiery for women. Those two corrections are absolutely right.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I was under the impression that hosiery was a word Of general application; that it would cover all kinds of knitted goods.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Not at all. The correction made toy my hon. friend (Mr. Lalor) is absolutely right. It -should be half hose for men, hosiery for women and girls. As regards the item:
Underwear consisting of Shirts and drawers in excess of $4 per separate garment.
That should read:
Underwear, either shirts or drawers.
To say: "consisting of shirts -and drawers" -means two ga-rme-n-te -as one.


Mr. MORPHY:: The clause reads:
Underwear, consisting of shirts and drawers in excess of ?4 per separate garment.
"Underwear, eon-si-sting o-f shirts- and dra-w-e-re"-that is the class. "In excess of $4 per separate garment"-that cannot be m-ade plainer.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That seem-s to be all right.


Mr. COCKSHUTT:: As regards -the item:
Coats, the component material of chief value being fur, including repairs- thereto, in- excess of $200 each.
Do I understand fro-m -that that all repairs that do not -come up to $200 on an old -coat, are exempted? It is not often that repairs on -a. co-at would -co-st $200. The wording is not very clear.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The hon. member is quite right. We make no charge at -all for repairs unless they are so expensive as to cost more than $200.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Should not the item "artificial- bait" in lin-e- 45 on page 6 be under clause 4, subsection (f) relating to liquor, -with a tax of $2 per gallon?


Hugh Boulton Morphy: That i-s the kind used in the Public Acounts Committee- for fishing.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: 
Andrew Ross McMaster: There is a legal principle of interpretation which says "collars and -collarettes of la-ce and -all manufactures of laoe- will -be manufactured llace- of the same sort." That i-s the law of ejusdem generis.
Mr. PEDL-OW: If this schedule is to be interpreted by ordinary dry goods men, who are not lawye-r-s and who are not familiar with legal phraseology in the construction of a sentence, the item should be more specific, so as to show exactly whether it applies to a single article, an article by the yard or an article iby the dozen.


Mr. HAROLD:: I think it is my duty -again to bring before the minister the item of furs. The exemption for piece furs, neckpieces, muffs and so on, is only $35.

Now that the minister has decided, on account of certain exemptions having been raised, to change another item, I should like to ask again if it would not be possible to have this exemption raised to $50? We are legislating in the hottest weather of the year; but we must not forget the cold weather of winter, and also that in this city, as well as in other large cities, there are many girls who have to get up at seven o'clock in the morning to go to departments to work.
(Mr. LAiPOINTE: Which department?


John Harold: They may have to go some distance but in any event it is very cold on winter mornings, and I feel that this is a necessary article of wear. From careful inquiry I find 'that you cannot get at any such price as is mentioned in this schedule, a fur that would be worn by the women of this country. If the minister will raise the exemption to $50, I am sure he will not have occasion to regret his action.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: My hon. friend (Mr. Pedlow) made a suggestion that I think has some virtue in it in regard to the item:
Collars and collarettes of lace and all manufactures of lace in excess of $2.
I am not conversant with the trade, but I would suggest inserting the word "piece" before the word "manufactures" so as to individualize the article and make it conform with the words "collars and collarettes."


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: If the minister intends to make a change, the better way of disposing of the matter would be to insert after the words "two dollars" the word " each " and the words " or by the yard."


Henry Lumley Drayton: That would not do because the limit on lace is 50 cents per yard.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: This is "manufactures of lace."
Sir HlENIRY DRAYTON: I move that clause 2 be amended by adding after the words "two dollars" in the 22nd line on page 7 of the Bill, the words "per article." That would individualize the article, if it is not already clearly enough individualized.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: That will not meet the situation, because a lot of material manufactured of lace that is sold by the yard will not be considered "an article." Two items are really needed to meet the situation: (1) Collars and collarettes, and (2) all

manufactures of lace in excess of $2 per yard. If we do not make some such provision some poor fellow will be penalized for unintentional violation of this law.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Will the hon. gentleman give us an example of what might happen if the clause reads as amended?


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Some merchant may think this item does not apply to manufacturers of lace by the yard. He may in all good faith interpret the clause in that way, and be penalized.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Lace is lace, and a manufacture of lace is lace, unless it is turned into some specific article. We provide for a tax on lace in excess of 50 cents per yard, and for a tax on lace which is made into an article costing over $2. There are a lot of things made out of lace besides collars and collarettes. There are lace doilies, for instance, of which there is quite a large sale, centrepieces, and the like. That is the sort of thing I am thinking of when I say "manufactures of lace." The limit in all these cases is $2 per article. I am told this is the exact language in the French Treaty and the wording used also in the customs tariff. It is well understood.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Will this section, or the preceding one apply, for instance, to lace frilling that isells for $2 or $3 a yard? There i.s lace frilling on the market that sells as high as $6 and $7 a yard.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I should think the preceding section would apply.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
John Archibald Campbell: I want to support the contention of my hon. friend (Mr. Harold) regarding fur pieces, that is, muffs and neckpieces. I think his argument is absolutely sound. I shall not go over it again, but I thoroughly endorse it. There is another matter. The limit is $200 for fur coats. Now even at the present prices of furs, which are considerably less than they were two or three months ago, it is a very ordinary kind of fur coat that can be obtained for less than $200. Fur dealers contend the limit should be $300. I think we might split the difference and make it $250. That would let in ordinary coats for men and women, particularly women. A man can get a fur coat of a certain class at a less price than a woman can. I think the limit should be raised to at least $250.


Charles Marcil: How are
you going to meet the case of women who

make lace and sell it from door to door, as many of them do in the large cities?


Henry Lumley Drayton: They will all come under this.


Charles Marcil: They are not in business. They make the lace and sell it. Is a poor woman who earns her livelihood by making and selling lace required to send in a report to the department?


Henry Lumley Drayton: It depends on the price of the lace. Generally, the lace made by these people does not sell in excess of 50 cents a yard.


Mr. BUREAU:: When this item which
reads as follows:
Automobiles adapted or adaptable for passenger use, retailing for not more than three thousand dollars each and a tax of twenty per cent on such automobiles when retailing for more than three thousand dollars each.
was under consideration in (the resolution I asked the minister to explain the significance of the words "adapted" and "adaptable." I wanted to know who would be the judge of last resort, in case of doublt, Ito determine the appliciibality of these words, I was told that when the Bill was brought down ilt would contain definitions and that particulars would be given. I pointed out that there were certain vehicles which were practically passenger cars but which were used by electric, telephone, and telegraph companies to convey workmen with despatch to places where there was trouble. Although they are really passenger cars they are not used for any other than business purposes. I do not see any provision for the determinaftion of. this matter in case of dispute. Who will be the judge of last resort?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Since the matter was up before I have had the opportunity of looking into it, and I find thaJt the phraseology is just the same as was used in the Special War Revenue Act, 1918. In regard to automobiles "adapted" or "adaptable" for passenger use, the interpretation of these words in case of difficulty is provided for under section 6 of the Act. The Customs are given authority to pass upon the matter, and these newer sections are merely incorporated inlto the Act. No question has been raised regarding the former wording as to automobiles.


Mr. DEVLIN:: Will the minister explain just what are liquor cabinets, smokers' cabinets and tea wagons?


Henry Lumley Drayton: A liquor cabinet is an article which, in some parts of the country, will soon have become a curiosity.


Joseph Archambault: The cellars will
replace it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: For some time yet Isuppose we shall have to use smokers' cabinets, and tea wagons are becoming more and more popular.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Thanks very much.


John Flaws Reid: Before the
clause is agreed Ito, I desire to revert to the item:
Firearms, shells, or cartridges for use other than for militia purposes.
Out West the little 22 rifle is used veTy extensively for killing gophers, and I should like to see the minister exempt 22 shells from the Itax. Very often a hoy is given a rifle and is told to shoot gophers, and it would aid production if these creatures were killed, for a gopher will eat one bushel of wheat in a year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: No doubt it is a good thing to kill gophers, but the extra accounting and trouble to which we would be put by making an exception in this respect would not be justified by the saving that would accrue to agriculture by the destruction of the gophers.	i


Henri Sévérin Béland: In connection with the
tax on spirits and medicated wines, is there any special amendment provided in favour of hospitals? I understood the minister to say the other day that he intended to bring in an amendment regarding hospitals.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It was pointed out at the time that the ^Government would deal with that question under section 92 of the Audit Act, which enables refunds to be given. It would be impracticable to make any exemption here.
Mr. BEtLAND:	Is that satisfactory to
the hospital authorities?
'Sir HENRY DRAYTON: I do not know whether it is or not; it has not been discussed. You could not very well make any exemption here, however.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Is it in keeping with the doctrine that is being preached by the President of the Privy Council in the interests of good health to charge a tax of $2 per gallon on tooth washes? I am referring to line 2f$ on page 11.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Those are tooth washes containing alcohol.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Yes. I am not a chemist and my knowledge of chemistry is very limited. I really do not know the preparation in tooth washes, but I do know that these washes are essential to every one and are recommended by doctors and boards of health; and even the President of the Privy 'Council would hardly object to a tooth wash being used with a tooth brush.


Newton Wesley Rowell: There is not the slightest objection so far as I am concerned.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I hasten to assure my hon. friend that he need have no apprehension on the score of tooth washes and powders. The great majority of them do not contain alcohol, and even in respect of those that do contain it the tax will not represent a serious hardship. We are now cancelling the stamp tax.


John Flaws Reid: With regard to
the tax of 20 per cent on patent medicines, I would ask the minister to take into consideration again the reduction of this tax. I think it is an injustice to those who live away out in the country any distance from drug stores, that they should have to pay a tax on patent medicines when they come in. The patent medicine is the country people's doctor in a great many cases and I do not think it should be taxed.
i ,	.
Mr. 'CHAPLIN:	The hon. member will
observe that this refers to proprietary and patent medicines that contain alcohol.


Mr. BURNHAM:: I would like to say a word for once in support of the contention of my hon. friend froim Mackenzie (Mr. Reid). Illness is something that the poor cannot avoid or evade. It is something they do not bring upon themselves, and it seems to me that a necessity like this ought to be very tenderly dealt with. People who are compelled to seek remedies of this sort should have every opportunity of doing so. I would rather pay an extra tax on the half measure known as our sessional indemnity than see poor people with large families stuck for a tax on their little remedies.
Mr. 'SIMPSON: In section 19 "tax on sales," page 12, we read:
The tax shall he paid by the purchaser to the wholesaler or manufacturer at the time of such sale.	[DOT]
The majority of sales are made at one time and the goods are shipped at a later date. The invoice is sent, out at the time

the goods are shipped. Some of these invoices call for payment in ten days, some for payment in thirty days, while some specify different periods of time. Will that be interpreted to mean that the sales tax will have to be paid at the time the invoice value is paid or prior to that?


Henry Lumley Drayton: The intention is that it shall be at the time payment is made. If there is any doubt I suppose it would be made 'quite clear by using the word "payable."


William Foster Cockshutt: 
Jacques Bureau: 
Henry Lumley Drayton: Calcium carbide is exempt under this clause.


Jacques Bureau: Calcium carbide gas is
not exempt because it is not used for the purpose of lighting. I think it should be exempt. I have been asked if the word "consumer" could not be further defined so as to indicate the ultimate purchaser who is buying for his own personal use and the commodity will not go any further after he has bought it. The article entirely ceases to change hands the moment it goes into the hands of the consumer. I submit that if it he thought proper to give a further definition to the word "consumer," . now would be the time to do it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Under the
method of administering the tax the manufacturer is never looked upon as a consumer. The consumer is looked upon as the person to whom the article is transferred and with whom it stops. -In connection with the matter raised by the hon. member for West Algoma (Mr. Simpson) I would suggest that the word "paid" might well be made "payable." I move that the word "paid" in the third line, page 12, shall be struck out and that the word "payable" shall be inserted in lieu thereof. The point was raised that the word "paid" referred to the time when the arrangement for the sale was made, but that the money would not be paid for some time afterwards. What I propose is to change the word1 "paid" to "payable," so that it becomes payable, but it need not be actually- paid.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Mr, PEDLOW:	What would be considered by the department to be the value for tax on importations? In arriving at the customs value for duty, the Customs. Department allows a cash discount of 2i per cent from the face value of all importations, when so stated on the face of the invoice, for customs purposes. Will this tax be collected on the face value or on the face value plus customs duty after 2J per cent trade discount has been deducted? Will the customs duty be added to the value of the importation and this tax apply to these amounts taken together?
-Sir HENRY DRAYTON: Yes. Now in the list of articles not liable to- tax I find we have omitted to put in "split peas and pea
meal and pea bran." I move that these words be added after the word "vermicelli."
Amendment agreed to.
John Flaws Reid: I have not had time to read over this free list and in going over the changes -so quickly it is iscaroaly possible to grasp their import. I would like to ask the minister if cream of wheat or wheat meal is in the list.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The rough breakfast foods are -all covered; the rough flours are all covered; oatmeal and all that sort of thing are alii covered; but specially prepared foods like cream of wheat, shredded wheat biscuits -and corn flakes

the patented foods-are not exempted.


John Flaws Reid: I see that wheat flour is -mentioned but the food to which I refer is not wheat flour. We all know what it is, it is a breakfast food; it is not wheat flour.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is not excepted. If my hon. friend refers to cream of wheat, that is a patented and specific article costing a great -deal -more than a cheap food.


William Foster Cockshutt: The other evening
when this matter was up I pointed out that there i-s a kind of cracked wheat which is not a -cereal wheat in packages; it is sold as openly as oatmeal. I think cracked wheat should be exempt; it is not a patented food at all, it is openly sold to anybody. It iis simply -a preparation of wheat just as oatmeal is a preparation of oats.


John Flaws Reid: 
Henry Lumley Drayton: I ,am afraid that would cover biscuits and fancy biscuits, and they are taxable. I may point out one thing: There will be a lot of points raised in the future that are not at the moment present to our minds. The underlying principle that we are following here ie not to raise the price of any food essentials- although the foods that -are of the more extravagant and luxurious type would be subject to this small tax of 1 per cent

so that if any injustice is bei-ng done, hon. gentlemen will see that at the foot of this

section the power is reserved to the Governor in Council to add to these exemptions " such other articles as he may deem it expedient or necessary to exempt from the said tax."


James Alexander Robb: I was going to ask the minister whether he has made provision anywhere in this Bill to tax sales of real estate, more particularly suburban lots that are sold throughout the country?


Henry Lumley Drayton: No, there is no such provision. I would like very much if we could put such a provision in -the Bill but it was absolutely impossible for us to do it having regard to the difficulties of administration. One of the reasons -for the delay in bringing down the Budget was to find out -the exact reason why the tax in England had been abandoned.


James Alexander Robb: Where is the equity or justification for placing a tax on -luxuries which some people consider necessities- for instance clothing, which is a necessity in this cold country-and exempting the chaps who put up a little shanty, ten by fifteen, buy a block of land perhaps five or ten miles out from a city, and -start a real estate business upon whi-ch they probably clean up a thousand or two thousand per cent. They are represented as great business men, and these are the very men who carry on an agitation throughout the country in condemnation of persons who invest their money in an industry which probably employs five hundred or one thousand heads of families that -yields them a return running only from ten to fifteen per -cent on the investment. I. submit, Mr. Chairman, that this is the time for the minister to get after these real estate boomers who do no good to anybody but increase the cost of living by running up the price of property. I think taxation of this kind might he a very legitimate source of revenue.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Strathoona):: In connection- with -the list of food products which are exempted under this clause, may I ask the minister if the omission of jams and marmalade from that list has been intentional? Canned fruits -and vegetables are mentioned specifically, but jams and marmalade are omitted for some reason. Was that intentional?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Jams and mar-m-afliade, particularly jams, are what are known -as "pound goods." They -are very much more expensive -than canned goods, and are subject to the tax.


James McCrie Douglas: I may 6tate for the minister's information that jams and marmalade -are .much more used by -the poor than are -canned fruits or vegetables of any description. It is the most economical food that the poor man can possibly gelt in the present day, and if th-e minister hs going to make jams and marmalade a -luxury I am afraid 'he will be acting against public opinion.


Mr. STEWART (Hamilton):: I cannot agree with the opinion which the minister has expressed. I am sure -that no article the pooT man can buy is more serviceable than jam, an-d to class it as an article of luxury is a- mistake. I do no-t think that anything that figures on the table of working people is more palatable or serviceable ' than jam.


Mr. NESBITT:: It is only subject to 1 per cent.


John Frederick Johnston: I think the commodity referred to by the bon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Reid) should be added to the list. The minister has already excepted corn meal, o-atmeal, and other commodities. Wheat meal is used- as a breakfast food almost to as great extent as any of the other articles -and should be excepted.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I have no objection. 1 did not really know there was -such an -article outside of these specific -foods. Hon. members having demonstrated that there is such a thing sold in bulk, following th-e principle which has been laid dofwn wheat meal should be treated in the same way. I therefore move that after the .words "wheat flour" the words "or meal" should be added.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. SEXSMITH:: I notice that rice and rice flour are excepted. Now there is an immense quantity of pulp rice -turned out by the Quaker Oats Company, of Peterborough, Which is used as a breakfast food. It should -also be ex-cepted.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: That -is put up in a package.


Jacques Bureau: I want to- get a pronouncement from the minister as tx>
whether acetylene g-as for the manufacture of acetic a-ci-d would .not come p-roperly under the exception. I do not want to move >an amendment- provided I am assured that the Governor in Council will take the matter up.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We will consider that.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: Under this clause, Mr. Chairman, every manufacturer and wholesaler is required to take out an annual license. In the case of a small manufacturer, for instance, a harness-maker, who *may be doing mostly a repair business, would be considered a manufacturer if he sold occasionally a hames strap at 25 cents, and would he be obliged to collect duty on that sale? I have had inquiries in reference to the matter, hence my bringing it to the minister's attention.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There is no tax whatever on repairs.


Donald Sutherland: It is not a repair; it is a new article cut out of leather.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I suppose as
long as he makes anything in sufficient quantity to be worth while bothering about he is a manufacturer. If he is making only hames straps, he may be making thousands and thousands of them.


Henri Sévérin Béland: The ordinary country harness-maker may make a few sets of harness during the year, his main business being repairs.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We would not look upon him as a manufacturer. Mr. Chairman, I would like to state that since we made the exception as to wedding rings I find that matters have gone on at such a pace since I was married, that now expensive wedding rings of platinum set with precious stones are sometimes used. The intention of the committee, I think, was the same as mine, that the exemption should apply to plain gold wedding rings.


Jacques Bureau: Those are the only wedding rings.


Henry Lumley Drayton: These expensive rings axe called wedding rings.


Jacques Bureau: They do not bind.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not know about that. I therefore move to amend line 20 on page 8 by inserting the words "plain gold" after the word "except," so that the exception will read: except plain gold *wedding rings.


Andrew Ross McMaster: The whole tendency of legislation should be to encourage marriage, .and if wedding rings decorated with precious stones are necessary to induce young ladies of expensive tastes to marry, I really think the Government might exempt such rings.


Jacques Bureau: It would not be biblical.
Amendment, and section as amended, agreed to.
On Section 3-Amendment to Act, repeals, etc.


Henry Lumley Drayton: A section which should be repealed was omitted when the Bill was' printed. I beg to move to amend this clause by iInserting after the word "eighteen" in line 49 on page 13 of the Bill, the following words:
Subsection eight of section nineteen;
Amendment, and section as amended, agreed to.
On section 1-Stamp taxes upon bills, notes, cheques, overdrafts, etc.


Jacques Bureau: Under this clause I must refer again to the question I raised the other day about overdrafts. Take a man with a line of credit of half a million dollars and he borrows another half a million dollars; if his overdraft is uncovered for just a few days, when the hank makes its quarterly return that one million dollars would appear as his maximum overdraft and he will have to pay $40,000 tax besides the bank interest. I do not think that is in the interests of the country. Take another case of an overdraft. A lawyer, say in Montreal, is acting in expropriation proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and the owner of the land comes to him and says, "I will sell. Give me $40,000." The lawyer goes to the hank with his papers, the bank have confidence in him, and they mark his cheque for $40,000 to close the deal. It takes some time for the voucher to go through a big concern like the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and as a result that lawyer will be taxed 2 cents per hundred dollars on the $40,000. He will lose $800, while his fee may be only $300. Under these circumstances only those who have big bank accounts and can handle large sums will be able to do business. I do not think this is the proper basis for taxing an overdraft. As I said the other day, when you give a one, two or three months' note, you get the benefit of the money,-you are at the peak load all the time; otherwise you -are not, for although -your overdraft may be for only twenty-four hours, if that appears in the bank return you will be taxed on it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Since my hon. friend raised the point it has had some consideration. To cover to some extent the extreme cases that he mentions-


Jacques Bureau: They are common cases.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not know. There are not very many people, Mr. Chairman, whom the banks would allow to have overdrafts to the extent my hon. friend has mentioned.


Jacques Bureau: They are not overdrafts; the money is on the way.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think something like this would meet my hon. friend's objection: Overdrafts to be taken into account for the purposes of this statement shall not be deemed to be outstanding until the fourth day on which the account is overdrawn.


Jacques Bureau: I am willing to accept that.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is something which would remove these accidental overdrafts entirely from the operation of the Act, and would merely tax overdrafts used for credit purposes.


Mr. VIEN:: Could it not be extended to ten days? Four days is a very short time.


William Foster Cockshutt: I have had it called to my attention that overdrafts are used very largely by municipalities. It is a very common thing for a village, a township, or a county council to rely on an overdraft to carry them over until such time as the next instalment of taxes come in. Under this section their overdraft will be taxed 2 cents per hundred dollars. These overdrafts often run into hundreds of thousands of dollars in the case of big cities, and even small cities frequently have $100,000 overdrafts. I do not think the section will hurt merchants to any great extent because as a rule overdrafts are very unpopular with bankers. I do not know whether the minister has had this called to his attention, but it is certainly a very important matter for municipalities.


Mr. STEVENS:: After all, this is a very small tax. In the cases mentioned by my hon. friend from Three Rivers (Mr. Bureau) it would be $8 and $200 instead of the figures he has given.


William Foster Cockshutt: But it keeps recurring.


Henry Herbert Stevens: It is a very small tax.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I have sympathy not so much with the municipality that has to borrow money, because they can afford to pay this tax, but with such a case as that presented by the hon. member for Three Rivers

(Mr. Bureau), where a business man or a firm borrows $40,000 or $50,000 in the way of overdraft, for in such a case it becomes a serious tax if repeated several times in a year. With the high rates of interest, with banks charging 7 per cent and liable to charge more, and with the tax on one's overdraft which may occur several times during the year, the item is a serious one.


James McCrie Douglas: I would
like to support the contention of the hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Bureau). I have a case in point of a firm who are doing business as cattle buyers and meat packers, whose capital is somewhat limited, but who are serving a very useful purpose in the community in which they do business. These people inform me that they require to borrow from the bank very large sums of money on short-date notes, it may be five days or it may be ten days, and they are doing this throughout each month of the year, covering up in five or ten days, as the case may be, with the result that, during the who)e year's operations, they use an aggregate of a quarter of a million dollars. This tax of two cents cn each $100 is going to be a serious obstacle to their financing, and would effect a hardship on concerns carrying on such a tremendous business on such a small capital.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Does not the hon. member note that the tax on an aggregate of a quarter of a million dollars is only $50. It is one-fiftieth of one per cent.


James McCrie Douglas: I do not understand it as such, if the firm gives a note for $10,000 to-day, payable'in five days or ten days, and two weeks hence, another note for $15,000 and so on.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That has been covered. When the proposals were first-made, a great deal of opposition was taken by hon. members because, for exemple, in the wheat business, you have an accumulating account, an account which changes day by day. You may have an account for $5,000,000 to-day, evidenced by a demand note. To-morrow that account is slightly changed; the debt may then be $5,250,000, or a little under it, and so on throughout the month. That, of course, would have meant a multiple of taxation upon the same line of credit. When the first resolution was brought down, I did not appreciate that there was this large amount of duplication of demand notes which would pyramid the tax, small as it is. Therefore, in order to get away from that, I have changed that entirely in the Bill. The Bill to-day pro-

vides that, in case of these demand notes being given' by the elevator companies, there shall be no tax on those day-by-day transactions, but that the only tax that is put on a demand note is the initial payment of two cents, and that during the credit period, which is defined as a three-months' period, there is only one tax paid on the multiplying scale. That is, two cents for every $100.


Jacques Bureau: Four times a year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes. That is taken upon the maximum of the credit.


Jacques Bureau: That makes the tax eight per cent per annum in addition to the interest.


Henry Lumley Drayton: No.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The tax is one-twelfth of one per cent.


James Alexander Robb: The minister has submitted for an illustration the wheat business, but is one not really pyramiding the charges in the wheat business? For instance, when a farmer brings; his wheat to the elevator, the elevator man gives him a cheque, on which he puts a two cent stamp. Then he puts a two cent stamp on the note that is given for the payment, the money advance the farmer requires. Supposing the wheat is sold the next day, another two cent stamp has to be put on the draft he makes on the buyer. The minister is pyramiding these charges three times.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend has not read the Bill. There is only a two cent stamp on the cheque. There is only a two cent stamp on the draft. It is only on the instrument carrying credit for a length of time that the multiple tax comes in. If it is a three months' bill of exchange, the matter will be quite different. But in the case the hon. member illustrates, the result would not be that. The man would put a two cent stamp on his cheque and if he sold the wheat the next day in sending out a draft he would put a two cent stamp on his draft. As he had just bought and sold in that way the chances are that the transaction would be carried out ion his own running credit. By the method proposed, so easy does it become that you could have thirty daily transactions in the course of your month involving a credit of $5,000,000, with only a tax on one transaction. The concession As even greater than that: you can have, during a course of three months, 241
ninety daily transactions with a tax only on one.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Supposing a man gives a note for $1,000, payable two months hence. He has to put on that a stamp tax of 20 cents. At the end of two months he pays $200. Would he have to put a stamp tax of 16 cents on the renewal note for $800?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes.
;Mr. OOPP: Supposing he makes a note . for $1,000 for a year, and at the end of the first month he pays $200. That is the same thing exactly, but he is paying taxes twelve times for renewals.
M-r. STEVENS: The holder of the note could endorse the payment on the back of the note.


Mr. OOPP:: If the man renews the note, it is exactly the same transaction, but in the case of renewals he pays the tax every time, although the first time he paid 20 cents.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The amendment that I suggest to get over the overdraft difficulty is this: I move to amend clause 1 by inserting after the word "bank" at the end of the sixteenth line on page three of the Bill, the following words:	*
An overdraft to be taken into account for the purposes of the statement and the value of the stamps to be affixed, shall not be deemed to be outstanding until the fourth day on which the account is overdrawn.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Perhaps the minister will explain the purpose of that amendment. [DOT]
Sir HENRY DRAYTONi: The idea is to prevent a tax on an accidental overdraft, something which has happened resulting from delayed payment of a cheque, something which was not at all anticipated by the parties, something which really does not evidence a specific credit -transaction. There is no tax whatever on this accidental overdraft of less than four days.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This seems to be rather a stiff tax. As I understand- it the tax is based on the maximum borrowing in each quarter of the year. For instance, if a concern has borrowed $5,000,000 to carry on its business it pays a tax of two cents on each $100 for the first three months. If it borrows $6,000,000 in the next three months, another two cents per hundred dollars is added and so on through each quarter of the year. That is a very considerable tax on credits, and it works out rather unfairly in this respect: A



company, for instance, that is working largely on its own capital, through having a large amount of paid-up capital, will be taxed comparatively a small amount, and will also escape in large measure the business profit tax, whereas a concern with a limited capital, but whose credit standing is good, will pay a relatively heavy tax under this proposal and also a heavy tax under the business profits taxation.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: In the case of an overdraft at the bank of $50,000 or $100,000 which the bank allows to stand for three or six months or a year, is the tax repeated in each quarter?


Henry Lumley Drayton: The tax on overdrafts is a monthly tax.
Mr. 'LALOR: That is a heavy tax.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The original
proposals have been changed because we thought they were too onerous. I feel sure that when the hon. member (Mr. .Crerar) realizes the reduction we have made from the original proposals he will be satisfied with this tax. The reductions being made in connection with the grain business are in the ratio of 30 to 1, that is to say, where the original proposal proposed a tax of $30 under the present proposal the tax is $1. Where a man was enjoying a very large bank credit, say of $5,000,000 for eight months, the whole tax would only be $2,000 under the present proposals.
iMr. 'CRERAR: I do not quite understand that from my reading of the clause. If a concern in the first quarter of the year has a maximum borrowing of $6,000,000, the tax for that quarter of the year would be $1,200, and the same continues through each quarter. I would suggest that the bank should be called1 upon to make the return semi-annually instead of quarterly, which would cut the tax under these proposals in two.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: It is monthly.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, quarterly.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It is quarterly so far as demand of brokerage notes are concerned, and monthly so far as overdrafts are concerned.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I would cite the case of a man who bought $100,000 of Victory Bonds because he felt it to be his duty. He has an overdraft at the bank, in consequence, off $50,000. He has paid for half the Victory Bonds, and still has this overdraft of $50,-

000. Now at the end of the year he will be called upon to pay a tax of $200 odd under this proposal. That is a pretty stiff tax. Another thing: Banks do business in this way. Instead of giving a note for three or four or 6ix months, business to-day is largely carried on by demand notes. As the money comes in from your customers, the demand notes are paid off, and as a result you are giving new demand notes from day to day or week to week. It is a pretty severe tax.


Henri Sévérin Béland: They are all severe.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: This one hite the man that borrows money, not the man that has money.


William Foster Cockshutt: It appears to me
from a reading of paragraph (13) of subsection 7 that this tax on the transfer of stock may have to be paid many times in the year, though I am not quite clear that the sale must embrace a transfer on the books of the company. For instance, there is the scrip issue. What I want to know is whether every time that scrip is bought as a speculation or a temporary investment, if it is not transferred on the books of the company, is the 2 cents collected every time the scrip changes hands? Then take mining shares. A mining share of the par value of $100 is often sold for $5 or $10. Would you put a 2 cent tax on that share because it had a par value of $100? It appears to me that this provision is not very clear. Does it constitute a sale every time scrip changes hands, or only when there is a transfer on the books of the company and the stock is registered for dividend by the proper owner?


Henry Lumley Drayton: On every sale.


Jacques Bureau: When transferred in the books of the company.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Every sale.
Most of these sales are made on the stock exchange.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Mr. 'CHAIRMAN: Shall the title carry?
Isaac Ellis Pedlow: May I ask a question
regarding the payment of taxes by purchaser or vendor? Subsection (3) of section 2 says:	.	.
And such taxes shall he paid in stamps or otherwise by the vendor to His Majesty in accordance with such regulations as may he prescribed.
I submit Ithat a definite ruling should be given on that matter to-day, so that the

retailer [DOT]will know definitely what is required of him from this day forward. There has been a considerable amounlt of confusion during the past few weeks owing to the uncertainty. In all fairness to the retailers of this country, who are to be the ;tax collectors for the Government under these proposals, all doubt should be removed as to the method that will be adopted in place of the method that has obtained since Ithe resolution was first introduced in the House.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Regulations
will he made at the earliest possible moment after the legislation is adopted.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Can the minister give us any approximate dalte?


Henry Lumley Drayton: We are now
proceeding to work out the whole tax scheme. Orders have been given for dies and we hope to be able to have a comprehensive stamp regulation adopted along the line suggested by the hon. member.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: In Ithe meantime the
present method will obtain?


Henry Lumley Drayton: We shall have to go on as at present until we have this stamp.
Bill as amended reported.
At 6.30 o'clock the House took recess to meet at 8.30 p.m.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight-thirty o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No, 159, for the relief of Mary Oakley. -Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 160, for the relief of Margaret Elizabeth Cooper.-Mr. Mowat.
Bill No. 161„ for the relief of Catherine Burfoot.-Mr. Nesbitt.
Ball No. 163, for the relief of Thomas Lindsay Thacker.-Mr. Blake.
Bill No. 162, for the relief of Margaret Henrietta Pettit.-Mr. Mowat.
Bill No. 145, for the relief of John William Wallace.-Mr. Wallace.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 169, for the relief of George Emerson Fox.-Mr. Ross.
Bill No. 180,. respecting the Dominion Trust Company.-Mr. McQuarrie.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Robert Borden the House returned to routine proceedings in order to permit the report of the Pensions Committee being presented this day.
Mr. Hume Cronyn, (Chairman, of the Select Committee on Pensions and Re-Establishment presented the Third and: final report of the committee.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply,- Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Mines and Geological Survey-for the organization and equipment of the explosives division under the Explosives Act, chapter 31, 4-5 Geo. V, $22,000.
['I quite agree with my hon. friends (Mr. McKenzie) and (Mr. Denis). It is for the reasons mentioned that in this Bill we have repealed entirely Part X in order to make the Act plainer. Although I am not a lawyer or the Minister of Justice I am in thorough sympathy with a revision being made.']
Mr. ARMSTRONG (East Lambton):: What steps have been taken towards reorganizing the Mines and Geological Survey branches?


Arthur Meighen: i'miproived. I have been greatly impressed with the possibilities1 of the department since I took the responsibility of administering it.


John Hampden Burnham: In what' way were the resignations "disastrous"?


Arthur Meighen: 
Charles Marcil: These men that have resigned have not yet been replaced?


Arthur Meighen: No. We are seeking to replace them. Some have been replaced, but not the technical officers.


Alexander William Chisholm: Will the minister give us the names of the men who have resigned?


Arthur Meighen: Yes, I have the list here. In the Mines Branch, Technical officers T. W. Hardy, F. W. Bari don, R. E. Gilmore, R. C. Ganteio, William Campion, John Blizard, and G. C. McKenzie. There are some clerical officers as well.


Charles Marcil: What are the salaries of the technical officers?


Arthur Meighen: One man resigned twice. When he resigned first his salary was $1,600; when he resigned the second time his salary wias $2,200.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If he had kept on resigning he would have got the right figure.


Arthur Meighen: Well, he is on the wiay. The salaries of the other men were: Mr. Baridon, $1,700; Mr. Gilmore, $2,300; Mr. Ganteio, $1,900; Mr. Campion, $1,600; Mr. Blizard, $1,700; and Mr. G. 0. McKenzie, $2,400. These salaries are exdlhsive of the bonus, which would be applicable in certain cases.


Mr. SHEARD:: What are the qualifications of these men?


Arthur Meighen: Mr. Hardy was assistant engineering chemist; Mr. Baridon the same; Mr. Gilmore, research chemist; Mr. Cantelo, assistant engineering chemist; Mr. Campion, mechanical draughtsman; Mr. Blizard, technical engineer; and Mr. McKenzie, as all are aware, was the Chief of the Ore Dressing and Metallurgy Divis-
ion which conducts a considerable establishment in the southwest end of the city.


Charles Sheard: What I wanted to ascertain particularly was the qualifications of these men. In discussing this matter with the Committee on Industrial and Scientific Research the .statement was made that certain employees, or officers, in the Department of Mines were .required not only to be graduates in science of a university, but .also to have a Ph.D. post-graduate qualification and several years' field experience.
I would like to ask the .minister if that is true, and -What salaries the Department of Mines pays to such men, if any are employed and such requirements are demanded.


Arthur Meighen: The qualifications to which the hon. gentleman refers have been required not directly but in some degree, as he defines them, in the Mines Branch, not in the Geological Survey. I have read the resignations from the Mines Branch.
I will now read the resignations-with the duties and salaries at time of resignation- from the Geological Survey.


Charles Sheard: And the requirements?


Arthur Meighen: They will be evidenced _ pretty much by the duties, but II will give a further indication when I have finished reading the names: L. Reinecke, geologist, $2,700; L. D. Burling, assistant invertebrate palaeontologist, $2,800; J. R. 'Cox, topographer, $2,000; J. J. O'Neill, geologist, $2,600;
B. Rose, geologist, $2,400; A. O. Hayes, geologist, $2,400; B. R. IMacKay, geologist, $2,400; E. L. Bruce, geologist, $1,950.
The system was adopted of securing these meii, towards the end of their university course, for summer work, choosing them from the most successful students in our universities. Then, those that were most successful in the service and showed the greatest promise were encouraged to take further training, and those who took the Ph.D. work were given the preference. That was an additional qualification, though not an essential1 one, because many of them did not have that degree. Mr. Brock, who was Deputy Minister of Mines for some time, worked this method of selection by co-operation with the universities and I think obtained by it some very competent and highly qualified men. As a matter of fact, unless we have men of the highest qualifications-that is the very best in their line-in this work, the department might just about as well close its doors. 'There is no use in having even

moderately good men; we must have for this class of work the best men or we cannot have an efficient Mines Department and Geological Survey. We feel that we have there a good' many of the best men yet; and while there has been some degree of disintegration it has not proceeded to the irreparable stage. I want to point out this too:	The limitation, of the salaries
at least, is not the sole responsibility of the minister of the department nor yet of the Governor in 'Council. The fixing of these salaries, minimum and maximum, is the primary responsibility of the Civil Service .Commission. The need of men of first efficiency has been pressed upon the commission but I do not think has been taken into account to the degree that I would like to see. The commission feel that having regard to similar, or almost similar, technical officers required in other departments and their salaries, they have gone as far as they can justify.


Charles Sheard: What salary has the
Civil Service iCommission fixed for such positions?


Arthur Meighen: I think I can give the new schedule. This is the re-classified scale:	Geologists $3,300 to $4,200; associate geologist, $2,580 to $3,300.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Has the minister taken into consideration the advisability of placing the Mines Branch and the Geological Survey Branch under one head, as they were formerly, in order to put an end to a lot of overlapping that is now going on?


Arthur Meighen: I would not wish to give a definite opinion on the wisdom of that course until the department has been thoroughly surveyed by the new deputy minister. lI have heard of overlapping, and I have no doubt there is some; but usually when one makes a close examination the overlapping is not so serious as it at first appears. After conference with the deputy minister it may be decided to .amalgamate the two branches, but I cannot say definitely at the present time.
Mr. iSHHARD: Are the qualifications of that associate geologist at $2,580 a university degree in science a postgraduate Ph. D. course, or work akin to it, and field experience? Because if that is so li think this committee certainly ought to make a very strong recommendation to the Civil Service Commission to raise the salary. To my mind it is of vital importance that we
should have the best and most experienced scientific men to lay out the plans and to erect the lines of prospective value of the geological formations of the country, and if that university training and that field experience are going to yield only that salary, I think it is a distinct menace to the department, for you cannot hope to get qualified men at any such salary. I would strongly recommend the minister to take that into his serious consideration.


Arthur Meighen: The whole three qualifications mentioned by the lhon. gentlemen are required, with this proviso: The degree is not indispensable, but the applicant must have taken his Ph. D. work in science.


Charles Sheard: Which requires at least two years' post-graduate training.


Arthur Meighen: Three years. The minister has, I may say, taken it into his serious consideration, but he would require some statutory authority to supplement his "serious consideration" to. be able to get results; the Civil .Service Commission has the final say. .


Charles Sheard: I would like to suplement
my question by .asking the minister if he does not think that the salary being fixed at such a figure, with the qualifications required and demanded, is a distinct menace and injury to the service? I certainly would not hesitate, so far as my humble opinion goes, to say it is.


Arthur Meighen: I have taken the view
and expressed it with some force, that the salary, considering the indispensability of these requirements, is fixed too low.


Charles Marcil: T notice that several of the provinces have mines departments, and I am often puzzled, when a question ocmes up in my own constituency, 9 p.m. whether I should submit it to Quebec or to Ottawa. Would the minister say just exactly what the work is as between the Dominion and Provincial Governments, and whether there is any duplication of work?


Arthur Meighen: I cannot say that I could speak with anything like final authority as to whether there is not some duplication. I do not think there is serious duplication. The mines departments of the provinces exist where the provinces themselves have jurisdiction over and, indeed ownership, in the mines. 'Consequently they are not of a scientific character primarily but of a proprietorial character,

just as the Mines Branch of.the Department of the Interior administers proprietorially the mines owned by the 'Crown in the right of Canada. To that branch of the Department of the Interior correspond the mining departments of the various provinces-'Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and British Columbia. I have not observed that there is any overlapping. The Mines Branch is an organization for scientific purposes, first o<f all for surveying and examining the geological structure of the Dominion with a view to making known such formations as will be of 'assistance to prospectors and others in getting at the mineral wealth. 'Of the value of that, of course, there is no question. Indeed, the mining men of Canada would receive with despair and dismay any .suggestion to contract the work of the Geological Survey; and the resignations that have taken place have been the subject to the most adverse comment by mining men. There can be no question of the vital necessity of that work, and no question that it can be most economically conducted in the interests of all concerned by one central authority. You cannot have a sporadic or localized geological survey; you must have one survey for the whole Dominion if you are going to have efficiency. I think I have set out as clearly as I can the fundamental difference. The Mines Department gives the same service to mining as does the Agricultural Department to agriculture.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Would the minister
enlighten me regarding the Explosives Act? I do not remember its provisions.


Arthur Meighen: I was not in charge of the department when the Act went through this House, but I know it has to do with the supervision of the manufacture, storage and transportation of explosives with a view to public safety. This is $13,000 less than last year's vote.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Does the Act cover
explosives used by the Department of Militia?


Arthur Meighen: Oh no; those are entirely under the Militia department.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I thought that while being transported from one arsenal to another they might come under the provisions of the Explosives Act. What explosives does this Act particularly take care of?


Arthur Meighen: If the hon. gentleman will renew his question a little later I shall be able to answer it when Mr. Ogilvie

who is in charge of that work is present. I know that ordinary explosives come under the jurisdiction of the Act. I do not know whether T.N.T. is still manufactured. The chief object of the Act is to supervise the manufacture of explosives.


Charles Marcil: The minister no doubt is exercising supervision, but we have had an appalling frequency of explosions around Montreal-at Beloeil, Rigaud and other points. The hon. member for Chambly-Vercheres (Mr. Archambault) brought the matter up a short time ago. Is there any real supervision of manufacture?


Mr. BURRELL:: All explosives, both those that we are familiar with and those newly discovered, have to pass a test under Colonel Ogilvie before they can be manufactured. It was with a view to getting uniform administration throughout the country that the Explosives Act was enacted in 1914. It was not proclaimed owing to war just coming on. Since that time and before the Act was proclaimed, all the provinces were consulted, and it was the desire of all the provinces that this should be worked in co-operation with their laws, and at the same time that a federal supervision should be exercised and no explosive manufactured except under regulations laid down by Order in Council and promulgated with very complete directions. Therefore, the whole matter is being worked in co-operation with the provinces, but under a general supervision exercised by the federal department under this particular Act.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: A few moments ago the minister made reference to resignations that have occurred in this department during recent months. Are these resignations the result of dissatisfaction in consequence of the work done by the re-classification experts? I have been led to understand, through newspaper reports and other information, that there has been considerable dissatisfaction all through the service as a result of the re-classification done by the experts brought in by the Government from the United States to re-classify the work and salaries of the Civil Service. The facts stated by the minister seem to confirm the impression that obtains, at least on this side of the House, that it was a decided mistake on the part of the Government to bring in these experts from foreign countries to overhaul and reclassify the Civil Service of Canada. It is certainly generally understood, \vhether it be true or not, that many of these resignations are the result of
/

dissatisfaction and are made as a protest against the treatment received at the hands of the experts that came to do the re-clasei-fication work.


Arthur Meighen: I stated that this situation was to some extent the result of a feeling that re-classification did not afford sufficiently high salaries; but associated with that thought must be this, that at the present time owing to the high price of minerals, a great deal of mineral development is going on in the world and an exceptionally strong demand is being made for geologists, who are consequently able to command very high salaries in the outside world. It may be very seriously disputed that we should take cognizance of a possibly temporary situation of that kind and seek to compete, say for the time being, with these outside demands. I do not know that the committee is particularly responsible. The Civil Service Commission have thoroughly reviewed its work; the matter has gone to appeal; it has been heard by the board of hearing, and I do not think the experts to whom the hon. gentleman refers are on the board of hearing. The work has all been reviewed by the Civil Service Commission, and, therefore, the Civil Service Commission are responsible. I believe they are acting as they think right, and I believe they could make out a strong case if they had to argue the matter before the hon. gentleman or any one else. Comment has been made that consideration has not been given to the fact that only top men are of use in this work. The commission feel that consideration has been given to that point. I do not think I can say anything further except that there has also been comment that their energies were not leading to sufficient results owing to the lack of strong enough control and organization in the department, just of late years. We expect, however, that that will be remedied before any great length of time, and it is being remedied.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: "Where these specialists
have decided upon a certain classification and salary, the Civil Service Commission are influenced by this decision, and they take that as their guide entirely in determining on a matter of this kind. It should be possible for the Dominion Government to retain the services of good men and to pay as good salaries as those paid by individuals or corporations or companies in the mining business. No doubt the department, in order to do good work along the lines laid down, must obtain and retain the
best service possible, and in order to do that, they must pay the best salaries going for the time being. Unless that course is followed, I am afraid a success will not be made of this branch of the service.


Arthur Meighen: I am afraid if the department did that and paid the best sal- , aries that can be had just at the present time, the Civil Service list would reach such a total that the hon. gentleman would take a fit.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: If that be the judgment of the Minister of the Interior, Mines, Oil and Gas, he is badly mistaken, because I believe in obtaining the best service and paying the best possible price for that service. It is impossible for the Dominion Government or any corporation to obtain that class of superior service unless they rise equal to the occasion. They must in every instance pay the best price if they expect to retain the services of good men. The experience that the minister has referred to tonight of his department in regard to this matter shows clearly the need for the department to pursue a course of that kind.
I do not mean to say that the department should be held up on oocasion, but they certainly should strain the salary line to the limit even under the present salary conditions, in order to retain the services of men they have tried and proven, men they know to have the experience the department requires.
Mines branch-investigation of ore and other economic deposits, road and structural materials, wages; expenses of the fuel testing and the ore dressing plants; collection of mining and metallurgical statistics, etc., $132,100.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What development has been made in regard to the treatment of coal in the West by the Lignite Committee?


Arthur Meighen: I set out in pretty full detail in the House about a week ago what the Lignite Committee did, but this is a time when that might well be repeated to this committee. The Lignite 'Committee consists of Mr. Ross, an engineer of Montreal, as chairman, Mr. Leslie Thompson, secretary ; a representative of Saskatchewan, Mr. Shepherd; and a representative of Manitoba, Mr. Learning. Their duty has been to seek to discover some method of briquetting lignite coal and of producing the briquettes at such a basis of cost as will make the product commercially feasible. They have succeeded to the extent of proving that the carbonization of this coal is possible, and they have also dis-

covered and established the binders that must be used, some three in number, which will all be used together. They further believe that they have finally established that the amount of binder required will be twice what is required for the briquetting of -German coal, but even that extra cost is not considered a too serious impediment. The hinder I Ithink is all procurable in Canada. I mentioned to the House on a former occasion the three binders that they have discovered; I cannot recall them just at Ithe moment. As to the carbonization, however, (which, being interpreted, means the oozing out of the volatile matter, the waiter and other incombustible matter from the coal) they have discovered a method of doing that successfully. The binder ties the padticles together after carbonization. That constitutes the briquetting of coal.
They have now called for tenders for the construction of a plant in the neighbourhood of Estevan for carrying on this work as a commercial proposition. On the basis of this year's costs, instead of the costs in 1917 when the arrangement with Ithe two provinces was made, it is going to require $600,000 instead of $400,000. We subscribed $200,000 of that $400,000, and the provinces $100,000 each. I have submitted to the two provinces the desirability of their subscribing $50,000 each of the balance, and have received an answer from Saskatchewan in the affirmative, but have no answer as yet from Manitoba. Conditional on their subscribing their share, I purpose to ask Parliament in the Supplementary Estimates for the share of the Dominion.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What salary is paid to
Messrs. Ross, Thompson, Shepherd and Learning?


Martin Burrell: No salary.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is Professor Macallum oT* the board?


Arthur Meighen: He is in another post
altogether, under the Department of Trade and Commerce. He is not connected with the Lignite Board.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: How -much does he -draw?


Arthur Meighen: I believe it is $10,000, but I should not like to have to answer for any more departments than I have.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Do you know what he
does?


Arthur Meighen: I have had considerable to do with him, and what I had to do with him was always very satisfactory.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What is his position?


Arthur Meighen: He is at the head of the Bureau of Scientific Research.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is that a a branch of
this business?


Arthur Meighen: No.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Who started this business?


Arthur Meighen: Speaking from memory only, I believe it was on the .suggestion or recommendation of that bureau.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is the country paying
Professor Macallum $10,600 a year foT suggestions? What does he do- to earn his money?


Arthur Meighen: I cannot answer for
Professor Macallum because he is not in this department, but I should say that if he makes good enough suggestions he would be cheap at the money.


Charles Marcil: What is being done at
the peat field at Alfred in the province of Ontario?


Arthur Meighen: I should refer to that
in this very connedtion. I do not know that I can do better than read to the committee a report which I have just received, and which I have not yet had time to run over, from Mr. Haanel, who. is in charge of the Peat Fuel 'Committee. This committee was appointed by the Federal Government and the province of Ontario on a 50-50 basis to investigate the commercial possibilities of the harvesting and sale of peat in the province. I can say, briefly: The committee has made very substantial progress. They had first to get the right to the peat bog where they proposed to conduct the experiments and do the work. The peat bog that they desired had been alienated and they secured the lease of it. and have been manufacturing peat there. Last year they manufactured several thousand tons. They have tested it, and it has proven a success. This year they expect to manufacture 14,000 tons. They have no difficulty in disposing of it at the price they have been asking, of $3.50 a ton, which in Ithe opinion of Mr. Haanel represents a profit of about 50 cents a ton. Peat at $3.50 a ton is about equal to $7-a-ton coal.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is Ithe price $3.50 at the mine?


Arthur Meighen: F.O.B. the mine at Alfred, in the county of Prescott. The object of the committee's investigation was to de-

termine whether peat fuel could he manufactured on a commercial basis in those portions of Canada where large peat deposits exist which are now dependent on foreign sources for their supply; also to determine the type of machine which can be employed to the best advantage in the manufacture of peat fuel under the conditions obtaining in Canada; to create a market for the peat fuel, and ascertain the methods which should be employed for its distribution from the bog to the consumers. A .satisfactory solution of the problems presented in the manufacture of peat fuel will render available the large areas of peat bog in the province.
The peat fuel committee has developed two types of machines, both of which they are thoroughly confident are going to be a success for the manufacture of peat on a large scale. They also have in process, of construction a small .machine which, in their opinion, will be utilized in localities for the manufacture of peat, not for sale in any. extended area, but merely locally. That was the chief object of their work. Owing to the advance in costs the report says that it may be found necessary to add slightly to the price at which they are selling the peat-which, as I stated has been $3.50 a ton-in order that there may be a fair margin of profit. They believe they will be able to establish in a very short time that the manufacture may be conducted successfully on a large scale, as they are working now only on a ten-hour basis, whereas the machinery, of course, can be worked twenty or twenty-four hours a day. They have equipped the plant for two shifts of ten hours each, and they believe they will establish before any great length of time that working on these two shifts peat may be produced on a large scale and sold on a $3.50 basis, or very slightly above, with a sufficient profit to guarantee the establishment of plants commercially. They will manufacture this year 14,000 tons, but they will not have it all produced and ready for sale within th fiscal year. That credit of $15,000, however, is the amount they believe they can safely rely on receiving from their sales.


Mr. RICHARDSON:: What is the fuel
value of peat as compared, with coal?


Arthur Meighen: Half as much as anthracite coal.


William Stevens Fielding: When was this 50-50 arrangement made with the province of Ontario?


Martin Burrell: As nearly as I can recollect about two years ago.


William Stevens Fielding: There is a much earlier history of these Alfred experiments. Some years ago quite a large appropriation was made for the carrying on of experiments there. I dk) not quite remember what the outcome was, but perhaps the minister does.


Martin Burrell: There was .quite a series of investigations carried on at the Alfred peat bog, and although they were not completely successful a lot of manual work was done, and they got far enough practically to establish that the whole problem was one of cheap machinery. There was no machinery of the type that would put the material in such shape that it could he handled at a profit, owing to the higher cost of labour in this country over Russia and Sweden, for instance, where they carry on peat operations very successfully. Consequently, when this matter came up again and it was pressed upon us that it was very desirable to utilize these thousands and thousands of acres of raw material, we determined to go into it again. At that time the Ontario Government were exceedingly anxious to carry on the work in some of their peat bogs. They asked us for our experts to survey the bogs, and the matter led to a general discussion and an arrangement whereby we engaged in a sense to pool our resources, and as it was largely a question of proper machinery to handle the peat to devise sutiable machinery, and demonstrate whether the manufacture of peat could be made commercially successful or not. With that object in view, two types of machines were built and operated last year on the Alfred peat bog. I understand that although they commenced very late in the year there were 6,000 or 7,000 tons of peat made. Since leaving the Department of Mines, I am afraid I have not kept in very close touch with the subject, but I believe that they are now going on with the work again with every hope of bing able to demonstrate that they can successfully develop it from a commercial point of view.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Are there any other districts where development is going on?.	*


Arthur Meighen: No. There are other
points being surveyed and bogs are being tested, but it is not proposed to establish plants yet.	^


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Gan the Minister of Customs (Mr. Burrell) tell us the process em-

ployed in extracting the moisture from the *peat?


Martin Burrell: It is altogether a natural drying process.' The hope that used to be entertained by people who spent a large amount of money in the peat business was that they could do it by compression. But my recollection is that there never was an instance in which it paid to use compression to extract the moisture, because the amount of fuel used for the purpose would not be justified by the results. Consequently, whatever success there may be in the business will be achieved1 by the handling of the peat in its raw state quickly and in large quantities and letting it dry naturally- v


Hugh Boulton Morphy: In the open air?


Martin Burrell: Yes.


Mr. KNOX:: This item provides for road and structural material. Has this any reference to the building of roads into the mining country in northeastern Saskatchewan and northwestern Manitoba?


Arthur Meighen: 
Andrew Knox: What material has been
found useful for road building in the western province?


Arthur Meighen: I am afraid I could not now give my hon. friend such an answer as would be of very substantial use to him, but I would refer him to a report which covens in detail his own iprovince and others, published by Mr. Clark, who is head of the road making branch, and which can be procured at the Mines Department at any time. It will give full detailed information of the examinations made.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What
means has been provided for the disposal of peat that is manufactured at Alfred?


Arthur Meighen: So far we have not required to .devise apy means because the demand exceeds the supply.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Where would a purchaser apply?


Arthur Meighen: The purchaser applies to the plant. Fourteen thousand tons is anticipated for the looming year. In this connection it is felt that one marked feature of the success of the work has been the fact . that the engineer, Mr. Moore, has devised an altogether new type of machine. I said that there were two types in use successfully,. one, the Swedish type similar to that which was used .previously, and the other, the type devised by Mr. Moore. The type devised by Mr. Moore is considered a marked improvement, .and some improvements are being made on it this year. These two on a double shift of ten hours produce 240 tons each a day. There is also a small machine after Mr. Moore's type which produces from 15 to 24 tons a day and is used by farmers who happen to be near peat bogs.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is the peat spread on the ground to dry?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is it spread by spade?


Arthur Meighen: It is spread by machine on the ground.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A portion of this vote is for investigation of ore and other economic deposits. That is an entirely proper work for the department to carry on, but it would! be interesting to know what the policy of the Government is regarding the disposal of valuable deposits of ore or .mineral that may be discovered through the explorations of the officials of the department. The fact is that to a very large degree the valuable patrimony of the Canadian people has been alienated to private hands, and I should like to know if there is any settled policy on the part of the Government to conserve to the people of Canada as far as possible the values that accrue from these discoveries.


Arthur Meighen: First of all, let me
make it clear that the Mines Department does no prospecting. The Mines Department has no special relation to the mines of minerals owned by the Dominion in the three prairie provinces; it has precisely the same relation to those mines as it has to the mines in Ontario, Quebec or New Bruns-

wick, and it does its work without discrimination throughout the whole Dominion. If there were tb be any change of policy in the connection discussed by the hon. member it would require to be by the Mines Branch of the Interior Department, which administers the mines:	owned by the
Dominion on Dominion lands. The question is really one that should come up on discussion of the Department of the Interior Estimates, but I may add just a word to what I have already said. We have moved in the direction of reserving the mineral royalty right more generally than has been done in the past. I might refer particularly to oils. In 1910 authorization was given for the issue of oil leases with absolute exemption from royalty until 1930. The right was withdrawn on my recommendation some months ago, and no leases have been issued 'since with any exemption. All leases have been issued in such a form that we can at any time impose whatever royalty we feel is just in the interests of the whole people; and that, in my humble judgment, is the best way for the Dominion itself to reserve its interest in the common deposits of wealth in the country. Furthermore, since that time, all leases that were in arrears have been as rapidly cancelled as we felt was justifiable having regard to all the circumstances, so that these areas would come within the non-exempt areas and be subject to royalty .in connection with future locations. Speaking on the basis of information I have at the moment, I do not think there is any exemption from royalty now; there was exemption in regard to oil but it has been taken away. So, that the Dominion is in a position, over its minerals anyway and so far as I know over all natural deposits, to exact whatever royalty the representatives of the people think to be fair and right.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is there any standardization of royalty, or does it vary according to output?


Arthur Meighen: The royalty on coal?


Hugh Boulton Morphy: II am talking about oil.


Arthur Meighen: There has been no
royalty fixed on oil but all the leases are issued in such a form that we can impose a royalty if we so desire. We have never fixed a royalty, for the very obvious reason that there has not been any oil discovered.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Not in the Mackenzie
basin?


Arthur Meighen: No, there has been no oil discovered in commercial quantities in Western 'Canada. On the other hand, by long standing custom, the Dominion pays a bounty on oil production at the present time. I doubt if, without that, there would be very much oil production in Ontario. That does not affect the West because the oil produced there does not come within the standard, but there would be very little production in Ontario if it "were not for the bounty. If oil is discovered in commercial quantities in Western Canada the question of imposing a royalty would be up for immediate consideration and I would say that there would be a very good argument for imposing it.


William Stevens Fielding: Do the leases contain a provision reserving the right to impose royalty?
iMr. MEIGHEN:	I am not certain that
they contain it, but I know a lot of the old leases contain a clause that they are not subject to royalty.


William Stevens Fielding: Why should there not be a distinct stipulation within the terms of the lease with regard to royalty? I think it very desirable that the man .who takes a lease shall have it before him that at the proper moment the department may impose a royalty. I think the statement of policy by the hon. gentleman in that regard is quite correct.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think the policy announced by the minister is a sound one. The necessary steps should be taken by the department and the Government to prevent the holding of valuable mineral deposits of this kind out of use for purely speculative purposes. It is a fact that in Western Canada at any rate, where we have very valuable coal deposits, large areas have been alienated to private individuals having in view the speculative values that may arise out of the holding of them until a demand develops for the commodity. That policy is not a sound one and it only works hardship in the long run to our own people.


Arthur Meighen: I thoroughly agree with hon. members, but that question was fully covered by the Act of 1914 prohibiting the issue of any grant of natural resources other, of course, than surface lands, and as a consequence all mining grants are made by way of lease and are subject to a development clause. The parties must de-

velop the property or they cannot hold the lease.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That does not apply to leases issued prior to 1914?


Arthur Meighen: No. Those issued prior to 1914 are not under our jurisdiction. These are civil properties owned by individuals or companies, and we could not impose any requirement on them. If it is to be imposed at all it would be imposed by the different provinces. They would have jurisdiction to do that if they saw fit but we cannot do so. Wherever we have juridiction we do put in that clause. We do not allow any one to hold a mine for speculative purposes; he must develop it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The minister might suggest to the Minister of Finance that there is a possible way of getting revenue by imposing a tax on the valuation of these mines that are held out of use. I know of no method that would more rapidly bring them into use.


Arthur Meighen: That may be so, but I think there would be no method that would more rapidly bring us into contact with every local government in Canada.


Robert Lorne Richardson: Has the minister
any information as to the proportion of land that was alienated to the pirates prior to 1914 and how much remains in the possession of the Crown at the present time?


Arthur Meighen: I know very little
about pirates; I cannot tell what amount they got. With respect to coal I think that vats areas are still held by the Crown. I speak with some hesitation. A great deal, of course, has been .alienated, but a great deal of development has taken place as a result of that alienation. It is not alienated out of Canada. It is still here and will be developed if it pays to develop it. As respects oil, the great bulk of the areas is held by the Dominion. The Dominion lands have been pretty well scoured for oil and we have now under consideration the question of opening our forest reserves under restrictions to oil prospecting. I cannot say whether it is likely to be done or not but a very strong argument can be made in favour of doing it.


William Stevens Fielding: Might I suggest that if these leases do not contain a provision with regard to the imposition of royalty it might be worth while to consider whether it should not be put in. The conditions of the lease should be well known and they should be set out in,the lease itself. These leases
[Mr. Meighen.l
are taken to capitalists and investors; they become the basis on which transactions take place; they pass into the hands of strangers who do not understand our laws, and it is desirable that every lease should contain a clear statement to the effect that it is subject to a royalty.


Arthur Meighen: When the bon. gentleman spoke about that I made a note of his point and I .fully agree that there should be such a reservation.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Does the minister know of any real prospects of oil, or has he ever known any "pirates" that have made fortunes out of the coal business in Western Canada?


Arthur Meighen: As regards coal, I do
not think there has heen any substantial money made in Western Canada. Indeed, there has been more lost than made. As regards prospecting for oil, the country has received in oil rents and permits more money, I fancy, than any person ever got for oil, to say nothing of the cost of developing i't. It is an entire fallacy-all this imagining and prating through the country about alienating our resources to wealthy men such as oil land and coal in Western Canada. The country has got more out of the oil possibilities of Western Canada than anybody else. The country is at the winning end of the ticket every time. I do not know whether the prospects (can be said to be good or bad', but certainly I do know that responsible people and very strong companies are at the expenditure of a great deal of money prospecting the West, following the geological lines indicated by the geological branch, and I think they will yet discover oil in commercial quantities. I believe they are fully confident that they will before long discover a very profitable source of oil production.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I know they have certainly not discovered any oil in commercial quantities and they are spending money by the millions trying to discover it. I would like to ask the minister one more question: That ife. how much money the people of the country ever got out of mines of any kind-gold, silver, platinum, coal, oil, or any kind-as long as those minerals Nv in the rock where nature had placed them?


Arthur Meighen: That question answers itself; nobody gets anything out of any mineral as long as it stays in the ground.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I am tired of hearing so much harping about the natural resources

of the country and not allowing "speculators" to have anything to do with these minerals-that they should be kept there for the people-when so far as I know they have been closely buried, and I never heard of any prehistoric man making any money out of them. I do not know why the people of the present day should be supposed to put their money into these mines and develop them without having the opportunity of making something out of it. All that sort of talk is so silly I cannot help protesting against it.	[DOT]


William Findlay Maclean: I must protest against the statements of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Nesbitt) because the greatest alienation that ever took place on this continent was the alienation of the anthracite coal fields of Pennsylvania, and all America to-day is suffering from it. A combination of coal mine owners and railroads got those coal fields absolutely in their hands, and they have monopolized them and made enormous fortunes. We need to use that coal to-day and have to pay an enormous price for it, whereas if the State had exercised the same discretion and foresight that has been exercised in some cases in Canada the people would have had the benefit of it. Both the provinces of Quebec and Ontario are enjoying large incomes now because they designed a lease with respect to pulp and timber lands whereby they get a continuous revenue out of those lands, and the condition governing the working of Crown grants of timber is such that they can be renewed every year somewhat on the line that the ex-Minister of Finance referred to.


Jacques Bureau: How much revenue does Ontario get from its water-power?


William Findlay Maclean: It gets a cheap power for all the people of the province, including the farmers. My hon. friend does not want to see them get it; he wishes to put a monopolist operation in between. Now it is possible that these great resources have to be leased-and I have no objection to that being done-and to have such conditions imposed in the lease that the lease could be revised every year and the royalty or the dues increased, and the control of the price at which the product is sold provided for. I am glad this discussion has taken place to-night; it is in the right direction.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I would ask the hon. member before he ceases-
Mr. MACLEAN (York); I have a right to
cease.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: -supposing the coal had lain in the ground in Pennsylvania all this time and that no private individuals had put their money in the mines and developed them, what good would they have been to the people of Pennsylvania or Canada?


William Findlay Maclean: The condition might have been much better than it is today. The doctrine we hear in some quarters is that the people cannot do anything for themselves, that they cannot develop water-power or develop anything. We have developed water power in Ontario that is to the benefit of the people. That water-power has not ibeen alienated but a big revenue is derived from it, apd the province has a great industial development under way based on it. So that this policy is not indiscreet, and the capitalists are not the only ones who can effect improvements for the public. 'Sometimes a State can do it and do it advantageously. I do not agree with the doctrine that has been stated here to-night that the only ones that can save the nation are the capitalists. Perhaps the people sometimes can save themselves if they have the chance.


Mr. PELLETIER:: The minister seems to have no confidence in the possibility of the production of oil.


Arthur Meighen: I stated the very opposite.


François Jean Pelletier: You have confidence, but there is no production of oil.


Arthur Meighen: We have oil in commercial quantities in Western Canada.


François Jean Pelletier: The reason I asked the minister if he thought we had oil is this: A short time ago a charter was granted *to a certain company to build a railway in the Northwest. When the application for the charter came before the Railway Committee the lawyer representing the company said he thought there would be some oil found in the district to be traversed by the line but he was not sure.
Mr. ARMiSTRONG (Lambton): They are drilling in that district now.


Jacques Bureau: They are in Calgary too.


François Jean Pelletier: But the promoters of this company are -not sure of finding oil. I was trying to ascertain from the minister why a charter should be granted to a com-

pany that did not know whether they would be successful or not in their enterprise when other charters had been refused prior to that, although we claim that we have great resources in timber, and agricultural lands, and so forth.


Arthur Meighen: I am sorry I cannot answer both for the Government and for the House. As to the Bill the toon. member refers to I never heard of it myself, but I presume it is a private Bill granting a franchise to build a railway. I would expect that those who are getting the franchise anticipate developing oil in the neighbourhood of the proposed railway?


François Jean Pelletier: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: Well, I spoke in these terms: I said I believed that those prospecting for oil in the Northwest were confident that they would be successful in getting it in commercial quantities. If they are right it is quite probable that there is reasonable ground for those people seeking to build a Toad. I do not see any objection to it myself, but it is not a matter that the Mines Department has any responsibility for at all. If there is any responsibility on any department other than the House- because it is a private Bill-it would be on the Railway Department. I would have thought that people would not be putting any money into the building of a road unless they were pretty confident there would be traffic for the road and very probably oil in that district.


François Jean Pelletier: Is there any one in the Dominion of Canada interested in this proposed railway?


Arthur Meighen: I do not know the first thing about it; I never heard about it till to-night.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Perhaps I might explain. The hon. member refers ter a private charter that was granted to a company for the purpose of building railways connecting Chesterfield Inlet off Hudson bay, with Great Slave lake, a distance of perhaps a thousand miles by lake, river and inlet.	.


Charles Marcil: Will the
road ever be built?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: There are only a very few miles of it that are necessary. There aire 250 miles of navigation on Chesterfield inlet off Hudson bay. Then ten miles of rapids are encountered, and it will be neces-

sary to connect by means of a branch railway with the Thelon river. The Thelon river itself runs in the direction of Great Slake lake and when nearing Great Slave lake there is another branch of the river which gives connection with that lake. Then theire will be a waterway for several hundred miles farther. That would carry the line to a point about a thousand miles west of Hudson bay and over a thousand miles north of the city of Edmonton. Since that charter has been granted I had the opportunity of speaking to the vice-president of the Imperial Oil Company who told me that they are now drilling north of Great Slave lake, over a thousand miles north of Edmonton and that it took them over one year to get the drilling outfit into the place where it is now located. He seemed very much pleased with the prospects of oil in that country.


François Jean Pelletier: At the same time it is nothing but a prospect.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Several
oil wells are being drilled in that country. Of course, they are all prospects.


Donald Sutherland: I sometimes wonder if we are not too prone to overlook the tremendous wealth and energy expended by prospectors. After devoting their lives to prospecting and spending all their wealth many of these men have died poor. It is very easy to say that every possible safeguard should be enacted in order to insure to the country every possible benefit from its natural resources. During the discussion some reference has been made to timber. But .timber is a visible thing, it is not to be compared with our undiscovered mineral resources; and if you are not going to encourage prospectors it is the duty of the Government to themselves undertake the work, otherwise we cannot expect to develop those resources. The minister has stated the safeguards provided in the shape of royalties on any discoveries being made. But if the prospects are as good as we hope they are, then I think every reasonable encouragement should be given to prospectors with a view to making these discoveries of the fullest benefit to the country as soon as possible. As has been stated, these resources are absolutely of no use to the country until discovered and developed. It is admitted that we have not yet discovered oil in districts where we suppose it is to be had in abundance. That being the case, enormous sums of money and unlimited energy must be expended in development

in order to prove -whether the oil is there. We are likely to defeat the very object we have in view if we make the restrictions too severe and so deprive of the fruits of their labour, those who by their skill, energy and money have made development possible.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am very glad to learn
from the minister that we have had some revenue from oil leases, and I certainly hope that our policy will be so shaped in future that we will continue to get proper development and at the same time not sacrifice our natural resources. I cannot for one moment agree with my hon. friend from North Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) who appears to have been rather asleep on this whole proposition. His policy, apparently, would be to hand over all these valuable natural resources to capital to be exploited without any regard for the rights of the people. I submit that the people have certain rights in these natural resources, because they are essentially for the benefit of the .people.
I would direct my hon. friend's attention to the development of the oil resources of the United States, where practically all the valuable oil areas have passed into the hands of one concern. With what result? To-day we are paying fifty and sixty cents a gallon for gasolene, and oil companies are paying dividends of eight hundred or nine hundred per cent. My hon. friend may consider that a desirable state of affairs for this country, but I beg to respectfully disagree with him.
The revenue the Dominion has received for the last forty years from our mines and forests will not pay for the total expense of administration and surveys. Is that a satisfactory state of affairs? We have mineral deposits that to-day could have been producing a splendid revenue if they had been administered wisely in the past. I dissent from the view that we should pass this valuable heritage over to capital to be exploited for the benefit of private interests alone. If that is the opinon of my hon. friend from North Oxford, he and I are travelling in totally different directions.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I did not say that I
would give the natural resources of the country to capital for development, not by any means. I said that I would not discourage capitalists from developing our natural resources for the ultimate benefit of the people by taxing those capitalists to death before they made anything out of their development. My hon. friend says
that in the United States the oil areas are in the hands of one company. I can name him a dozen very strong companies that are in competition with one another in the United States.
Mr. 'CRERAR: The independent companies live on the sufferance of the 'Standard Oil Company.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: My hon. friend should
nolt talk about things he is ignorant of. I can tell him the reason why gasoline and coal oil are so dear. There is a shortage of production all over the world, and there is a vast increase of consumption. Under those conditions oil, like every other product, will go up in price. Ii is quite true that those who have been successful in the oil industry of the United States have made money. So also have those who have been successful in the mining indusltry in this country; hut more money has been sunk in the industry in this country than was ever made out of it; and more money has been sunk in oil propositions in the United 'Sltates, I venture to say, than was ever made out of them. You have got to give capital some encouragement. Capital is a shy bird and it is not going into propositions to lose money on, especially if some one is coming along as soon as a small success is made and say, "Oh, this belongs Ito the people; it is a natural resource; we don't care anything about you, we will confiscate your discovery." That is what I am opposed to.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: So am I.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Well, you say you want to leave all these natural resources for the people. I ask:	Whalt good are they lying
dormant? You must get some one to develop them. The same thing with the western prairies-if men did not come along and grow wheat what would Ithat country be worth? Why don't you say to those men, "We will let you retain fifty cents a bushel for the wheat, and we will ttake the rest for the people?"


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Mr. Chairman, ever since I have had the honour of a seat in this House I have been strong for the development of our naltural resources. While realizing the merit of the argument advanced by my hon. friend from North Oxford, I find myself more in line with the argument of the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Crerar). We have no assurance, bult every indication points to our having great mineral resources. I believe the Govern-

ment should take all necessary steps to develop our mineral as well as our other natural resources in order thalt we may see how far we can be a self-contained country. Representing as I do the county of Wright, with its wonderful deposits of mica and iron, I have always felt Ithat besides those deposits there are other minerals- the geological formation indicates it. I would certainly approve of the minister devolting some of this money; towards prospecting and developing whatever mineral resources there may be in the county of Wright. I thoroughly appreciate that the member for North Oxford is right when he says that capital will not go into a losing proposition. If there is something that is a sure thing, then you will find capital without douibt. As regards the matter of obtaining money from English capitalists for any mining proposition in this 'Country, the first thing that the men in England will do is to send over their engineers and prospectors to go over the territory, study it for themselves and make a report. They do not take the reports of our. own engineers. I am speaking now of what little experience I' have had in this matter. I do not say that there are not exceptions to the rule; but as a general rule, that is the way they proceed. If their engineers report that the .proposition is a sure one, they wil invest in it. Before the war we were able to get a certain amount of capital easily into the country for purposes of investment in different natural resources, tout we cannot get it to-day. We must recognize that capital is tied up more to-day than it ever was before, and there is not the' same amount of capital available for investment in propositions such as those under consideration to-day. Whilst respectihg, as I do and have far a very long time, the hon. member for Oxford North, who looks at questions in a businesslike way, I feel that the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Crerar) ha.s advocated the wiser course, that here is something in the w.ay of a natural resource belonging to the people of this country, a resource in its infancy, one requiring absolute development, and therefore, I must approve the position taken by the Minister of the Interior.
Mines branch-publications, English and French editions of reports ; purchase of books of reference, laboratory supplies, instruments, miscellaneous assistance, office contingencies, 140,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: 
Arthur Meighen: All I can say at the moment is this. Examinations are made of mining .airs, that is to say, quantities of air taken from the mines are sent to the department and examined, their contents reported, and such information given regarding them and the effect of the various gases .as the experts of the department may

be able to provide. That is one work that is done-the examination of the various airs or gases that are contained in mines. Another work, which is done under the explosives division, is the examination and reporting upon explosives used in mines and the regulation of such explosives as, having regard to the gases present, are safe. Other experiments, which are going on all the time, have to do with the examination of ores, the flotation of ores, and generally the extraction of the mineral from the ore. Just, at the present time and for some time before the department was taken over by myself, extensive experiments are being conducted in the ore dressing division on methods of flotation with a view to determining the commercial feasibility of new methods of floating ores. If those methods prove feasible, then, indeed, for this country that is rich in minerals and that has a wonderful variety of mineral ores of all kinds of complexity, great advance has been made.
Progress reported.



[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Martin Burrell (Minister of Customs and Inland Revenue) Bill No. 178 was read the second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Steele in the Chair:
On section 1,-chemical still:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: What does this change amount to?


Martin Burrell: There has always been great uncertainty in the past in estimating the capacity of the still, whether it was determined on the actual cubic contents or the distilling capacity. This is to remove all doubt and ascertain the capacity by actual water measurement.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-standard leaf tobacco:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: What is the
effect of this change?	.


Martin Burrell: We are adopting the English and the American practice. Under the old Act, tobacco was interpreted as being 10 per cent or more of moisture, When the tobacco came in-I am speaking of the raw leaf-it was subjected to an ordinary hand test, and if it was thought to contain more than 10 per cent moisture it was put through a proper test in the dryer. If it was proved by that test to contain 12 or 14 or 16 per cent moisture an allowance was made for the ex-242
cess about 10 per cent. If it was drier than 10 per cent, say 8 per cent, he was charged 92 pounds instead of 90. This testing takes an enormous amount of time. Our officers have charge of a good many factories, and find that practically all their time has been taken up in making these tests. Each test takes about 45 minutes. There has also been great confusion in the tests because in the drying some officers, will char the tobacco, and then it does not become an accurate test. It is owing to the great amount of time that is involved in making these tests and the confusion there has been that we have thought it well to adopt the American practice, which is to estimate the tobacco as being 10 per cent of moisture. What will happen is that if an importer has more than 10 per cent of moisture he will be penalized to the extent of the excess moisture. It is counted as tobacco. The trade will adjust itself. What will happen is that the man will simply dry his tobacco up to about 10 per cent moisture.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 4-abatements in computation of duty on spirits for shrinkage by evaporation while maturing:
James Alexander Robb: What is the reason for making this retroactive?


Martin Burrell: lit is not retroactive. It is 1920. It was urged upon us very strongly that we should make it retroactive for two years as regards liquors now in storage. It did not seem to me desirable that we should do that, so we are bringing the section into force on April of this year. Under the old system we have made no distinction between shrinkage by evaporation of alcohol stored in metal and alcohol stored in wood. This change has come about as a result of a long series of tests and experiments covering a period of years, as a result of which we have ascertained pretty accurately the exact amount of evaporation, that takes place. Under this amendment we shall come fairly near the mark of actual evaporation. It has been shown as a result of our experiments that there was a far greater evaporation, so far as alcohol stored in wood is coiv eerned, than was allowed for, and we were really penalizing the man unduly. The request to make this retroactive for two years, it seemed to me, could not well be entertained. I have therefore changed the date proposed in the Bill of last year and am making this section operative only from the first of April this year.

.COMMONS


Mr. CURRIE:: I understand that the
Government suffered a good deal through the action of some distillers a few years ago. They passed the liquor into their tanks at freezing temperature or just about freezing temperature, which reduced the volume of the liquor considerably, and the moment it came out and reached atmospheric temperature the liquor increased in volume five or six per cent, to their benefit. I believe that the practice is different now and that the manufacturer is compelled to pass the liquor into the vats at normal atmospheric temperature of 65 or 66 degrees. This is an important matter and considerable money can be saved to the Government by a proper regulation of it.	.


Martin Burrell: That was true some years ago, but there was a change in the regulations which fixed the temperature at 40 degrees Fahrenheit.


John Allister Currie: This Bill does not do away with that?


Martin Burrell: No.


John Allister Currie: There is another thing.
Former ministers have stated time and again that there was no necessity for compelling manufacturers to store their liquor for two years, and-


Martin Burrell: We shall come to that question in another section.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Oh section 5-spirits warehoused for two years before entry for consumption.
Martin Burrell: This is the point raised by my hon. friend (Mr. Currie). Under the old Act as it stood no liquor could be taken out of the distilleries for two years after its manufacture. I am not thoroughly familiar with the reasons that impelled the department to enact that provision. I think possibly it was done on the suggestion that it would make a superior brand of whiskey. But since the wave of prohibition over Canada very much less alcohol has been made, and while there has been a strong demand by pharmaceutical chemists for alcohol for manufacturing purposes, for hospitals:, etc., there has been no new alcohol available, and the price of the two-year-old spirits has of course mounted up at a furious rate. It seemed to me, after going into the whole subject, that rather than abolish the clause altogether, which might result in any number of small distilleries starting up which it would be difficult to control, it would be better, during this shortage, to allow the Governor in 
Council to fix a time for the suspension of the clause in order that new alcohol might be at the disposal of thesd' people. That alcohol can be made quickly and it would be an inducement to manufacturers to make alcohol for this particular purpose, to meet the market, if they could go into the business without the necessity of keeping the liquor for two years.


John Allister Currie: I very much approve of this clause. ' The manufacturers of alcohol in Great Britain and the United States were allowed to bring their raw alcohol here and compound it and send it out to the Canadian people when it was perhaps not a month old. The reason why the two-year provision was made previously was largely owing to the supposition that if the liquor was stored in vats or barrels the fusel-oil, which is a bad element of alcohol, would evaporate. There is a method of removing this fusel-oil which the Government, ought to compel every distiller to adopt, and that is to pass alcohol intended for human consumption through a charcoal filter. Every chemist knows that alcohol can be made in a laboratory in a few hours, and it can be rectified in the laboratory by being passed through a charcoal filter. If the distillers submitted alcohol to that process there is no reason why it should not go into consumption inside of twenty-four hours after being made. Now, to leave it to the Government to determine whether the law should be suspended or not is merely to continue a method which gives a monopoly to three or four distillers and wipes out all the small distillers throughout the country, because no one would put money into a business if it took two years before he could sell his manufacture. Apart from that the clause is all right, and I hope that next session the Government will see the wisdom of abandoning the two-year provision. Minister after minister has said that he did not see any reason for it as it was not necessary, but it has never been abolished. If the Act were amended so as to provide that alcohol should all be passed through a charcoal filter the public would be perfectly safeguarded; but to let alcohol go to the public from a distillery soon after its manufacture without being put through this process is merely to cause blindness to people, as is evidenced by those who drink foreign liquors. I think the Government should see to the purity of liquor that is sold in the country.


James Alexander Robb: Going back to the statement made by the minister a moment ago, are

the committee and the country to understand that it is now the policy of the Government to make alcohol more plentiful and consequently cheaper in Canada?


Martin Burrell: The intention is to make alcohol available for absolutely essential purposes for which it cannot now be obtained. Alcohol will not be cheaper. As a matter of fact, it will be a good deal dearer, because there will be the excise duty. There is a certain amount of alcohol that is got out free of excise, or at low rates, for manufacturing purposes, but for those purposes it cannot be secured until it is two years old.


Charles Marcil: Can you
give the figures as to the quantity of alcohol manufactured to-day as compared with four or five years ago?


Martin Burrell: There are ten licensed distilleries and the quantity manufactured during the last fiscal year was 2,356,000 gallons. The quantity on hand in all distilleries on April 1 of the present year was 6,593,000 gallons.


Charles Marcil: How does that compare with five years ago?


Martin Burrell: It shows a large decrease.


James Alexander Robb: Where are these licensed distilleries?


Martin Burrell: There are: At Belleville, two; Guelph, one; Prescott, one; Toronto, one; Windsor, one; Joliette, one; Montreal, one; St. Hyacinthe, one; and Vancouver, one.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6-penalty for illicit distillation increased fyom $100 to $200.
Martin Burrell: This is simply increasing the penalty from $100 to $200 for liquor illicitly manufactured because when the fine was only $100 it was quite obvious that a man would run his chance of turning out a barrel of this stuff which would be worth more than $100. We are therefore increasing the fine to $200.


Charles Marcil: Has there been an incyease in the illicit manufacture of liquor this year as compared with last?


Martin Burrell: The illicit stills which we have actually discovered and in regard to which there have been prosecutions were as follows:
242i
Year.	Prosecutions.
1917-	18	
131918-	19	
1911920 (To March 31)	
985Mr. MiARQIL (Bonaventure):	They
were scattered all over the Dominion?


Martin Burrell: All over the country.
Mr. McKHNZiliE: How many of these stills were discovered in the Maritime Provinces the last two years and where?


Martin Burrell: St. John division, 8 last year; Halifax, 4 last year, 5 this year; Pictou, 2 last year, 15 this year.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What about Cape'
Breton?


Martin Burrell: That would be in the Pictou division. In that division there were 15 illicit stills. We made 9 seizures in that division quite recently.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I would like to see these illicit stills cleaned out, because they are making and selling a product which is deadly to the life of the people. What steps are being taken to prevent the manufacture and sale of that kind of liquor?
(Mr. BURRELL: In that division we have three men working now, and one special man.


Charles Marcil: Would the minister give the figures for Ontario and Quebec?


Martin Burrell: For Ontario and Quebec the figures are:
1917-18 1918-19 1919-20 Ontario ....	50	296Quebec ....	11	37	47


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: A short time ago dt was not permitted to distil liquor in this country or under any conditions to manufacture any liquor. Some officers at that time, whose business it was to look after illicit stills, were dismissed or let go; it was thought that there was no further use for them. Now the minister has found that this illicit work has sprung up and is in existence to a greater extent than it was in the older days when it was carefully looked after. The reason given by the department for the dismissal of these men was that there was no revenue from that source and consequently they could not keep the men because they got no money in any case. As liquors were not allowed to come into the country the revenue was not supposed to be suffering. In my own county a very capable officer, whose business it

was to look after illicit stills, was dismissed. He is still a comparatively young and active man. He was under Mr. Fraser, the chief officer for Pictou, Guysborough and Cape Breton. This gentleman, Mr. McKinnon, was for many years the officer looking after illicit stills but he was dismissed. It is not a nice thing to take a man in the service with his habits of life formed and throw him out and back on his own resources. :If the minister requires more officers than he had before in that district I would respectfully suggest to him that he consider the case of this old official against whom there was not one black mark. If he requires the services of any officer in that district he would do well to take an experienced and well qualified officer such as Mr. McKinnin was.


Martin Burrell: If the stills increase in my hon. friend's district we may look into it.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
'On section 7-penalties increased for sale of spirits unlawfully manufactured:
Martin Burrell: Under the old section, 185, provision was made for a fine of $50 and not less than $10 for the man who was found with illicit spirit in his possession and who sold them. It was manifestly absurd to fine the man who actually got hold of liquor after it had been distilled and sold it less than the man who had made it. Consequently we have increased that penalty to $500 and not less than $200.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 8-amount of bond from brewers increased from $1,000 to $2,000:
Martin Burrell: Under the old provision there was a fine of $1,000 and it was found in some cases where irregularities had been committed by brewers that the amount involved was more than the fine. In one or two cases that was the particular complaint; so we have increased the fine to $2,000 to be sure of covering the loss entailed by the particular act of the brewer.


Charles Marcil: What is the strength of beer allowed to be brewed in Canada now, and what is the nature of the supervision exercised by the department?
Mr. BURRIEiLL: As far as temperance beer goes-


Charles Marcil: That is the only beer that is allowed.


Martin Burrell: The temperance beverage is 2k per cent proof, but there is no limit to the other beers. They may be manufactured until legislation goes into effect to stop manufacture or importation, but it has not arrived yet.


Charles Marcil: Is the
beer sold in Canada beer of any strength?


Martin Burrell: Where the provincial
legislation allows it.


Charles Marcil: Does any province allow
it?


Martin Burrell: Does not Quebec allow
it?


Charles Marcil: The beer that is sold is
limited to a certain strength.


Martin Burrell: Then I presume the brewers can only manufacture it according to that strength. Of course it can be manufactured for export.


Charles Marcil: Is Ithe supervision under
the Dominion Government or under the provincial authorities?


Martin Burrell: Under our officers.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
' On section 10-remission of duty on malt used to make vinegar.
Mr. DENIS:: What is the object of this change?


Martin Burrell: The object of this particular amendment is to allow malt to be used in combination with other cereals as is the English practice.


James Alexander Robb: Malt is used very largely
by the bakers throughout the country. Is the minister giving Ithe same privilege to the bakers as to the manufactures of vinegar?


Martin Burrell: We would not have
any control over the baker, because the maltster pays the excise dulty and when the malt passes out of his hands into the hands of the baker we are done with it.
On section 13-packages and stamps on tobacco and cigars:


Charles Marcil: There has
been a very large increase in the tobacco output of Canada, especially cigars and cigarettes. Cigarettes seem to be coming into almost general use by school children and everybody else.


Martin Burrell: Speaking from recollection, the toltal duty of excise and cus-

items on tobacco, cigars and cigarettes, is about $31,000,000. That is what was collected this year.


Charles Marcil: It is a very large increase.


Martin Burrell: If any hon. friend
would like some idea of the consumption of cigarettes I might tell him there were about 2,400,000,000 consumed in the last fiscal year.


Charles Marcil: What increase would that be over five years ago?


Martin Burrell: A considerable increase.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 15-license to pack or cure Canadian leaf tobacco:
Charles Marcil: What is
there new here regarding Canadian leaf tobacco?


Martin Burrell: The only new feature
about this is that we have provided control over the packer. As my hon. friend knows the cultivator is licensed with a two-dollar license fee if he is growing tobacco for sale. He is allowed to grow tobacco without a license if it is only for the people on his own farm, up to thirty pounds per person. But the packer-the man who buys from the cultivator-we have not had proper control over although we have taken power without, as I see it, proper authority under the Act. And as a matter of fact the packer can evade the tax because it is almost impossible to follow his operations. At present it is almost impossible to follow out where he sells; we have no control over him. There has been in the mind of the department, in giving this whole subject consideration, the idea that the time has come to approach the American system and what is, in effect, carried out in Ontario-that is, the grower of the leaf selling to the manufacturer and before the tobacco reaches the ultimate consumer to pay twenty cents a pound excise as is done in the United States. But a great many representations have been put before us-I think some probably by my hon. friend, and certainly from various parts of Quebec-[DOT] that the leaf as grown in Quebec has not yet attained that general standard of perfection that would enable them in selling to get that price which is paid where the better varieties are cultivated, but they hope to get to that point. In the meantime, there is no doubt about it, if we cannot get the twenty cents a pound tax on manufactured tobacco, that is the excise
tobacco, the very least we should do, and see that we do it, is to get five cents on the raw leaf, after it leaves the cultivator's hands.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: Does my hon. friend
dispute Ithe Quebec license?


Martin Burrell: I am not "disputing"- my hon. friend is using the wrong word; I am quoting the words of those who have made strong representations to the department that they do not yet grow in. Quebec a sufficiently large percentage of the finer varieties of tobacco to make cigars, but that" they are working up towards that stage. They grow a very excellent tobacco now. They claim that if they were growing a larger percentage of the finer leaf they could very well place all this tobacco in the hands of the manufacturers and enable the 'Government to collect the 20 cents excise. But we find that' the 5 cents on the raw leaf is not collected in very many cases because the packers, over whom we have no control, can dispose of the raw leaf with, out our knowledge. . Therefore, for the protection of the grower as well as the Government, we say that every packer must be licensed and make a return of the tobacco he handles in order that we may have . proper control.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The finest tobacco comes from the counties of Montcalm, L'Assomp-tion, and Joliette; the best apples from the county of Rouville; and the best salmon from the county of Gaspe.


Jean-Joseph Denis: I am taking a very keen interest in this tobacco question, because as the hon. member from Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) has just pointed out, the best tobacco, grown in 'Canada comes from the district of Joliette, rvhich I have the honour to represent. I sej that the fee charged to packers is raised from $2 to $50. What is the reason for this? Is it with the view of increasing the revenue?


Martin Burrell: No, not at all.


Jean-Joseph Denis: Then what is the reason for the increase?


Martin Burrell: I thought I had explained that to my hon. friend just now. As a matter of fact I have very grave doubts whether we had statutory authority to charge a fee at all, and all we did in the case of the packer was to impose a very small fee of $2. We licensed the cultivator, but I do not think we had any statutory authority to license the packer. If the packer ever got rid of the tobacco it was

his business to affix the stamp, but we had no authority under the statute to control his operations at all. It is in the interests of the tobacco grower, as well as in the interests of the country generally, that the packers themselves should ibe under this degree of control by being licensed. It does not mean that they will be charged any more than 5 cents when they are disposing of their stock, but it does give us proper authority over people handling an excisable article.


Jean-Joseph Denis: The minister is absolutely right, and I cordially approve of what he has just' stated. But my point is: In order to know who are the packers is it necessary to impose a fee of $50? Would not the control be just'as effective if the fee were $5 or $10?


Martin Burrell: 
Jean-Joseph Denis: I withdraw my objection on that point and accept the explanation made by the minister. I notice that the packer will have to give a bond for $1,000. That is a considerable inconvenience.


Martin Burrell: If my hon. friend is
objecting very much to that figure I do not mind cutting it in half, but we must have a bond.


Jean-Joseph Denis: 
Martin Burrell: I do not think that
would be advisable, for the reason that in the administration of other branches of the Inland Revenue Department this question has come up, and I believe the suggestion

mentioned by my hon. friend was tried out, but in practice it proved to be very unsatisfactory. Nowadays there are so many of these guarantee companies that it is a perfectly easy matter to get a bond of $500, especially if the applicant is a responsible party. I-f my hon. friend would, rather leave the section as it is I am perfectly willing.
Mr. DENI'S: I do not want to lose what I have already acquired.


Martin Burrell: I would rather restrict it to bonding companies.


Jean-Joseph Denis: Then I will have to accept the $500.	*	.


Martin Burrell: I move that section 15, subsection 2 be amended, in line 19 thereof, by striking out the words "one thousand" and substituting therefor the words "five hundred."


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 17-wood alcohol.
Martin Burrell: The latter clauses are
practically re-enactments of the old Part X, which dealt with wood alcohol, except in so far as they deal with methyl alcohol and call it "Methyl-Hydrate" and also call it "poison," because it has been found that people seeing the term "methyl-alcohol," the word "alcohol" suggesting something to drink, sometimes drink it, and it has been thought better to use the chemical term " methyl-hydrate " and have the bottle marked "poison." The newer clauses are to be found in the first part of Part X and they deal with a new subject, that is denatured alcohol or methylated spirits. I think I briefly explained, when the resolution was before the House that up to the present time the department itself had been the sole manufacturer and purveyor of industrial alcohol, or methylated spirits, and now it has been thought well, on the representations of the manufacturing interests and of scientific and industrial people who are interested in all these matters of advanced industries, that industrial alcohol should be manufactured outside of the department and they will be able to get it a good deal cheaper in that way. Therefore, although the Bill that was proposed last year, imposed an excise tax of 15 cents a gallon on alcohol used for that purpose, we have wiped out the excise duty entirely; we will permit distilleries licensed for that purpose to manufacture ethyl alcohol free of duty and then to combine it with the

wood alcohol, making methylated spirits or industrial alcohol, at the lowest expense possible. They think, and I hope it may be so, that in this way industrial alcohol can be put into the hands of the manufacturers more cheaply that it has been in the past, and I shall be only too glad if their anticipations are realized and if this gives a great impetus to various forms of enterprise. That covers the main reasons for altering Part X.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On the title:
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I know the hon. gentleman who is in charge of this Bill will not be greatly interested in the question I wish to bring up, but I was going to suggest that we have reached, in our legislation in this country a stage where we should revise the statutes. I notice that this Act was amended in 1908, 1910, 1911, 1914, 1915 and 1918, and now it is being amended in 1920. My hon. friend can readily understand the predicament of a man of my profession who is called suddenly to defend or prosecute a man charged with violation of the Inland Revenue Act.


Martin Burrell: Defend, I hope.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: He looks up the Revised Statutes and he thinks he knows something about the law, but he is told it has been Tevised and re-revised and amended, and it takes a couple of days to find out where he is at. The same thing is true today of practically every chapter of the Revised Statutes, and I would suggest to the minister (Mr. Burrell) and the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Meighen) that we should revise the Statutes every ten years, depending upon bow many amendments we make. Under present conditions I think a revision of the Revised Statutes is in order and has been in order for the last year or two. I would strongly urge upon the Government the necessity of having this work commenced at a very early date. The condition at present, so far as the profession of the law is concerned and those who have to administer the tax is very unsatisfactory, because of the uncertainty.


Jean-Joseph Denis: I cannot too strongly support the view which has been expressed by my hon. friend (Mr. McKenzie). In this case in which I was particularly interested I had to go through all these statutes and study every one of them and make the necessary corrections. All practising lawyers are aware of this. The revision is a matter on which there would be no opposition whatever from either side of the House,
because everybody is agreed that this work should be undertaken and the statutes brought up to date as soon as possible. I do not think anybody could possibly object.


Martin Burrell: I quite agree with my hon. friends (Mr. McKenzie) and (Mr. Denis). It is for the reasons mentioned that in this Bill we have repealed entirely Part X in order to make the Act plainer. Although I am not a lawyer or the Minister of Justice I am in thorough sympathy with a revision being made.


[Stage Direction]
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and-passed.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
Mr. MA-CKENZIlE KING: What Estimates is it proposed to take up?
Arthur Meighen: Labour.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would submit to-the minister that there are a good many matters on which we would like to get information, and unless the minister is in a position to give us the information I think we had better not start on these estimates at this hour. We have had no discussion of labour matters this session at all, and I think it important that some opportunity should be given to hon. members to discuss labour questions. It is now 11.20 p.m., and the House sat until nearly 3 o'clock this morning.


Arthur Meighen: I would suggest that we go into the Estimates and in that way we could have a better idea of the questions that are going to be addressed to the department.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As we have not yet taken up the Estimates of the Department of Labour, to discuss them to-night, being Friday, the unanimous consent of the House would be required. I do not feel at liberty to consent.
Progress reported.
On the motion of Hon. Mr. Burrell the House adjourned at 11.20 p.m.
Saturday, June 19, 1920.