1920-05-14

CORRESPONDENCE TABLED.

[Stage Direction]
Correspondence between the Department of Justice and the Civil Service Commission with reference to the promotion of the secretary.-Rt. Hon. A. L. Sifton.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. NEWTON W. ROWELL (Minister of Health) moved:
That the House do not concur in the amendments made to Bill 28, an Act Respecting Maple Products, for the following reasons:-
1.	Striking out clause 3 of the Bill removes the penalty for the violation of the provisions of subsection 1 of section 2 of the Bill.
2.	The amendment of section 4, which purports to provide a penalty for the violation of subsection 1 of section 2 of the Bill, is not effective to accomplish the purpose.
He said:	The Senate has amended the
Bill by striking out section 3 which makes specific provision for a penalty for the violation of subsection 1 of section 2, and they have amended section 4 of the Bill with the intention apparently of making its provisions applicable to violations of the pro-
[The Chairman.]
visions of subsection (1) of section 2, but they are not applicable. The penal provisions provided in section 4 are those contained in section 16 of the Food and Drugs Act. That section provides penalties for three classes of offences: (1) adulteration injurious to health, (2) adulteration not deemed injurious to health and mis-brand-ing, and (3) wilful adulteration. As violations of the provisions of subsection (1) of section 2 do not fall within any of those classes, section 16 of the Food and Drugs Act cannot be made to apply, and if it was desired to institute a prosecution for violation of those provisions one would not know which of the offences to charge or what the penalty would be. It is quite clear that the Senate made the amendments under a misapprehension, and I therefore move non-concurrence.
Motion agreed to.
Hon. Mr. ROWELL:: I now beg to move:
That a message be sent by this House to the Senate to acquaint their Honours with the nonconcurrence in the amendments made to Bill 28, an Act respecting Maple Products.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
House again in committee of Supply.- Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Department of Agriculture-Experimental Farms-Maintenance of Central Farm and maintaining of additional branch stations, $1,200,000.
Mr. FIELDING:: According to the custom the Speaker automatically leaves the Chair on Friday, but as the Estimates of the Agricultural Department have not yet been considered, my hon. friend (Mr. Tol-mie) could not, strictly speaking, proceed to-day. However, we quite understand his good object, and I have no objection to his proceeding on the understanding that at a later stage abundant opportunity shall be afforded for the discussion of these items. Therefore I am very glad to concur so that the Minister of .Agriculture (Mr. Tolmie) may at once have an opportunity of making a statement.


Hon. S. F. TOLMIE (Minister of Agriculture) :: Mr. Chairman, before taking up
the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture, I deem it advisable to outline briefly our agricultural development, the improvements that may be made in the in-

dustry, the prospects for the future, and the great importance of the development in meeting our financial obligations.
In making a brief survey of the situation, I find that we have invested in agriculture $7,379,299,000; the land under field crop in 1919 was 53,049,640 acres; the value of agricultural products in the same year amounted to $1,975,841,000.
In 1918 the mineral wealth amounted to $396,917,732; timber, $182,254,740; fisheries, $60,221,863. The total manufactures in 1917, which was an exceedingly heavy year, amounted to $2,786,649,727.
In looking over the figures in respect to wheat production, I find that while there has been a marked increase in acreage in the average year there has been a decrease in the yield per acre. In 1911 the average yield per acre was 20.80 bushels; in 1912, 20.38; in 1913, 21.04; in 1914, 15.67; in 1916, 17.10; iln 1917, 15.75; dm 1918, 11.00; in- 1919. 10.25. In 1915, which was an exceptional year and in which the conditions were just about ideal, the average yield per acre was 26.05 bushels. We should not fail to give attention to the gradual reduction of yield in the average year, because this is exactly what has occurred in wheat growing countries which have followed the single crop system.
One of the greatest responsibilities of the Dominion Department of Agriculture as well as of similar departments in all the provinces .is bo conserve the fertility of our virgin soils to the very best of our ability. If we can do this we will ensure the prosperity of this great country. The best method to follow to bring about this result is that of carrying on mixed farming with livestock as a basis. As a splendid example of w'hat can be done along these lines, let me point to Great Britain, a country very small in area compared with Canada, in whidh they have created and maintained in a state of perfection more breeds of horses, cattle, sheep and swine than all the Test of the world combined. While breeders from many other parts of the world have gone to Great Britain and made importations of some of their best stock, and on their return have actually taken a Scotchman along so as to ensure good care of them, after a few years they have found it necessary to return to the Old Land and secure new blood to maintain tihie Standard of perfection.	.
There is grealt need in this country for a vigorous and continuous campaign of agricultural education, education along the lines of better methods of farming.
better livestock, better seeds and better marketing. I would like to potin|t out, Mr. Chairman, the possible results that may be achieved through the employing of better methods of agriculture, without turning over a single fresh acre of land. All hon. members who have had experience in farming will agree that an increase of three biuishele per acre of ,wheat is not an extraordinary expectation as the result of better methods. We may assume, therefore, that this is a reasonable figure. In 1919 we had 672,793 acres in fall wheat, giving an average yield of 23.75 bushels per acre, valued at $31,521,000. If we had an increase of three bushels per acre as the result of better methods, the value of that increase in cash would have been $3,976,206. In the same year we had 18,453,175 acres in spring wheat, with an average yield of 9.50 bushels per acre valued at $333,336,000. An increase of three bushels per acre would have given us an increased return of not less than $104,075,907. In the same connection it is fair to assume that -we might secure from better cultural methods six additional bushels per acre of oats, four of barley and fifty of potatoes. In 1919 we had 14,952,114 acres in oats with an average yield of 26.25 bushels per acre, valued at $317,097,000. An increase of six bushels per acre would have given us an extra yield worth $71,770,147. In barley we had 2,645,509 acres with a yield of 21.25 bushels per acre, valued at $77,462,700. An increase of four bushels only per acre would have increased the cash value of that crop by $14,497,389. In potatoes we had 818,767 acres with a yield of 153.5 bushels per acre, worth $118,894,200. An increased yield of 50 bushels per acre would have given us an increased cash value of $38,891,433. This makes an estimated annual increase from grain and potatoes alone, as a result of improved methods of agriculture, of $233,211,082 per year.
Now, remember that this is an estimate made on the basis of not turning over, one fresh acre of land. Some hon. gentlemen may think that these estimates are unreasonable. But let me point out what- the results have been of experiments on our Government farms. It has been shown that as a result of using good seed, that is, of changing from an unsuitable variety to a variety that will suit the location, an increase of not less than from fifty to eighty per cent has been secured. For instance, a variety that is too long in maturing in a certain district where it is liable to frost may be entirely destroyed. Other varieties, again, may mature too quickly in certain

districts without filling out and without giving a proper yield. The use of pedigree seed instead of seed of a nondescript variety has given an increase on our Government farms of ten per cent and upwards. The use of clean seed, free from weeds and foreign grain, has given an increase of ten per cent and upwards. Disease-free seed, particularly potatoes, has given most excellent results, in some cases producing an increase of from fifty to one hundred per cent. Rotation of crops-that is, the arrangement of the crops in rotation over periods of three, four or five years so as to retain the fertility of the soil-has given an increase of seven per cent and upwards. Thorough cultivation has given an increase of five per cent and upwards, and, in some dry areas, there was the difference between a fair crop and no crop at all. By the use of commercial and ordinary farm fertilizers, very largely increased production can be secured. These figures, as I have pointed out, are not guess work; they are the result of experiments carried on by the experimental farms from the Atlantic to the Pacific. This indicates, not only the value of the experimental farms, but the results that may be obtained by better farming methods.
I have been pointing out to the committee simply what may be done by a better method of cultivation. There is still another very large field that is practically untouched, and that is in the immense areas of virgin soil in Canada:. This can be reached by encouraging agricultural immigration of the right class to take up these lands, and if this be done, satisfactory and immediate results wall be obtained. We should not, however, make any of the mistakes we have made in the past in allowing every one to immigrate to this country and giving him the privilege of Canadian citizenship. We should be a little more discriminating and select a better class, bringing in the kind of men who are willing to work and settle on our farms and keeping out the soap-box orator and the man who would rather talk than work.
Agriculture has not escaned entirely from the unrest experienced in other lines of industry. We find our farmers going into certain lines of production for a year or two and then getting out of them in a hurry and leaving the market short. An excellent illustration of that is the hog industry, which requires stabilization to a certain extent. We find that hogs are being brought all the way from the city of Winnipeg to the Pacific coast merely to meet the

local requirements, and in addition to that hundreds of carcasses are being imported from the American side. This should not be, and it is largely due to the high price of grain and to the lack of faith on the part of the farmer in present market conditions.
We find that the farming industry has been very slow to go into sheep rearing. In Australia, there are no less than 80,000,000 sheep; in the United States, 40,000,000; in Great Britain, 27,000,000, and in Canada, only 3,500,000. If you ask a farmer why he does not go into these industries, he will tell you that it does not pay; but by actual experiments at our experimental farms, it is clearly shown that in almost every year these two lines, hog raising and sheep raising, have shown a satisfactory profit. This again indicates the need of more education along the line of better fanning and better livestock.
Let us look for a moment at what can be done by the use of better animals and by better feeding and finishing of our livestock. Canada has to-day 3,543,600 dairy cows which have an estimated average production of less than 4,000 pounds of milk per year. Any dairyman farmer, who . has any ambition, should aim to have his cows average a production of at least 7,000 pounds a year, and some of 'the herds of this country average over 14,000 pounds per cow. Supposing that we were able to obtain this increase, and we valued the increase at only 82 per hundred pounds, that would mean an increase in the yield of 860 per cow, which would bring us a total increase annually of no less than 8212,616,000.
The total number of beef cattle marketed through our inspected abattoirs-and these are not by any means all the beef cattle killed in the country-amounted in 1919 to 1,026,141 head. Many of these were of poor quality and in very poor condition. I visited an abattoir in Toronto, went over the killing floors, where they were putting through some 700 head that day, and some of our western representatives will be surprised to learn that these cattle were passing through with a weight of from 250 to 350 pounds per carcass. Had the animals been in condition and properly grown, they would have weighed at least twice that, and *would Wave sold Ifor a much higher price. It is safe to say that, by better feeding and by keeping our cattle better, we could secure an increase of weight of 300 pounds per head which would mean an increase of $36 in cash per head, or an annual increase of $36,941,076.

The hogs slaughtered at our inspected establishments, that is the packing houses where they kill hogs for export and for interprovincial trade and where we maintain a staff of inspectors, number 2,373,810 head wilth an average woighlt of 189 ipoiuands in 1919. They should have averaged, had they been in proper condition and fully grown, 220 pounds per head. Of this number, 158,254 were what are known as light hogs or " lights." These should have weighed 80 pounds or more, or an increase of 12,666,320 ,pounds; with an increase of thirty pounds on the balance of the hogs, an increase of 66,466,680 pounds could have been secured, or a total gain, had all these hogs been up to standard, of 79,127,000 pounds which, at 17 cents per pound, would have amounted to $13,451,590.	(	.	I i 1
Let us consider for a moment the innocent little Canadian hen, of which we 'have 41,000,000 flying on and off the nest iln . Canada. The average yield ' otf the Canadian hen is only from 5i to 6 dozen eggs a year. By better breeding and selection, very much better results can be obtained, because some of the hens in high-class flocks are yielding from twenty to twenty-five dozen eggs a year. An increase of only one dozen eggs a year by better selection and breeding would result in an increase in our poultry wealth of $12,300,000 at 30 cents a dozen, to say nothing of the results that can be obtained in bettering the quality of our fowl which are disposed of for the table.
The results I have referred to will give us an increase in our field crops of $233,211,082, an increase in our livestock of $275,308,666 as a result of improved methods, making a total of $508,519,748, or more than one-quarter of our total national debt per year, and this, without turning over a single fresh acre. I would ask if it is not reasonable that we should make every effort to attain this end?
These are just a few striking illustrations of the possibilities of a better system of agriculture, and the figures that I have given show, without any doubt, the necessity of more agricultural education. We are disseminating this education to-day through the medium of our experimental farms, agricultural colleges, agricultural exhibitions, agricultural press, comity agents, the Livestock Branch, the Seed Branch, the Fruit Branch, the Entomological Branch, Dairy Branch, and the Health of Animals Branch. While we are accomplishing a great deal of good work, our work would be vastly increased if more money were available for the purpose.
To show the results of agricultural education in the livestock business and the benefits to be obtained from campaigns of education, let me point out that when we in Canada first began to become Interested in the big market for our hogs in Great Britain, our hogs were on the whole of a more or less nondescript variety. We had the American thick-fat hog, the scrub hog, and a few of the bacon type. We soon learned that the Danes and the Irish were supplying the British market with what is known as the bacon-type hog. An attempt was immediately made in this country to induce our farmers to rear that type so as to meet the requirements of that market, and to show you the excellent results obtained, I might say that during the past year in our inspected abattoirs no less than 85 per cent of the hogs that passed through these establishments were of the bacon type. That shows the results of agricultural propaganda of the right kind. I am quite confident that if this had been left to individual effort, not nearly as good results would have been obtained.
Let me give another example to show what can be accomplished by improved methods of caring for livestock. On a one hundred acre farm on Vancouver Island are two brothers, neither of whom has ever had any training in an agricultural college. They are shrewd business men, anxious to improve their opportunities and willing to work. They maintain on this farm 3,000 head of high class poultry. They carefully trap nest their Ihens, and have registered some of the best of them with the result that to-day for their best hatching eggs they are securing no less than $7 per dozen. On the same farm a Jersey herd was established about ten years ago, and to-day that herd averages more than 550 pounds of butter fat per cow, while the average scrub or nondescript cow is satisfied with 125 pounds. This is another example of what can be done by improving one's methods and a willingness to work. Let me give another example. Last year in British Columbia a single cow yielded within twelve months 32,000 pounds of milk, which is just eighty pounds less than the world's irecord, and which is eight times as much as the yield of the average Canadian cow. This one cow required only one-eighth of the room in the stable that was required for eight average cows, needed only one-eighth the care, and consumed a little more than one-eight of the feed required by eight scrub cows. The farmer that kept eight average cows to yield as much milk

was at a loss at the prevailing price of feed and found that at the end of the year he had been farming in a circle andi had not got anywhere. After balancing his receipts and expenditures he found that he had got nothing from his year's work but the fresh air and the exercise, whereas the man with the 32,000 pound cow was able to sell that milk for $1,280 and he sold the cow with a heifer calf for $15,000 to be shipped all the way to Pennsylvania. The heifer calf brought $1,000. The value of knowing how to do things was worth in this particular case at least $14,000.


Mr. W. H. WHITE:: Ii these methods were followed by the average farmer does the minister think there is a market for very many $15,000 cows?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: 

ganda. They have instituted household science work, giving instruction in the domestic arts, in home nursing, sanitation, improvement in social conditions, and they are exercising a very wide-spread influence which cannot but make for the enlightenment and advancement of all those who live on the farm. These women, have worked very generously during the war, and the organization referred to being nonsectarian and non-partisan they have been capable of rendering highly valuable service to the country.
There is something else that will improve agriculture and business generally, and that is a better understanding between the city man and the farmer. When the city man gets his quart of milk in the morning and has to pay 15 cents for it., he is rather inclined to designate the farmer a profiteer; but he probably does not know the history of that 'quart of milk. He does not realize that the cow from which it was obtained cost possibly twice as much as she would in 1914; he does not know that all the fodder used for that cow is just about double in price what it was four or five years ago; he does not realize the fact that labour is scarce and that the farmer has to stay at home and milk his cows twice a day 365 days of the year, including holidays, birthdays and all. On the other hand, the farmer should realize that 80 per cent of the goods he turns off his farm are either manufactured or consumed in Canada, so that the home market is easily his biggest' market; and that every time a new sawmill is put up, or a new logging camp, a new mining camp, a new factory, or any other new industry established, all this increases his big home market.
I am not personally in favour of any policy which proposes to tear down one industry in order ito build up another; I feel that there is room for all of our industries in this great country. What we need is more national thought and more business co-operation between city man and country, man. I may remark that very excellent results have been obtained in the United States in .certain sections where bankers and business men have established amicable social relations with the farmers in .their surrounding agricultural districts In many cases the city men have backed the farmers, enabled them to increase their capital, to establish their dairy industry on a sounder and better basis, to go in more extensively for hog raising, etc., with the result that while the agricultural in-
TMr. Totmie.]
dustry in these districts formerly just dragged along, many have now become prosperous and the business men find an excellent market right at their door.
The war and its inevitable after effects, not to mention the debts that have been incurred, have brought us face to face with the great necessity of production, and we must realize the importance of the man who produces, whether agriculturally or industrially, as compared with the man who heretofore has thrived on the efforts oi others. In out present situation we cannot hope to free ourselves from the incubus of our debts without great national effort. This is the time for energetic action; this is the time for thrift and sound common-sense. Our markets are receiving careful attention. We realize that the surest w>ay to stabilize our agricultural industry is to furnish the farmer with an absolutely reliable market, or one as nearly approximating that standard as possible, so that he can be always sure of getting reasonable prices for his produce when he is ready to sell it. The home market is receiving close attention, and any one who is unable to-day to obtain an article in his own town should endeavour to get it in the neighbouring town rather than send to a foreign country for it.
What we need is more home buying. We have to the south of us a very good market for our agricultural produce, particularly for our livestock and many other articles which the farmers produce. It is very convenient and within easy reach, but I think we would be rather short-sighted if we did not give some attention to the development of the great market overseas, and especially the market of Great Britain. I believe in building up a bond of sympathy between the old Mother Country and this one, one of her most important Dominions. In addition to the bond of sympathy between us, we can find in the Old Land a business that is a very profitable and satisfactory one to this country. On the continent of Europe there is also a most excellent market.
Eealizing the opportunities on the continent of Europe, the Department of Agriculture secured, immediately after the winter fairs were held, two first-class Canadian steers, which were exhibited in France, Belgium and Switzerland, with most excellent results. One firm alone has shipped to the continent of Euirpoe no less than 20,000 head of cattle, and many others are shiping very largely whenever shipping space is obtainable. We have had some very favour-

able comments from the Euro4 p.m. pean papers regarding these cattle, in the first place alluding particularly to the quality and condition of the animals, and in the second place to the enterprise of the country which adopted that practical method of displaying her goods. Another strong feature in connection with our cattle is the reputation they have made on account of their good health. We have no foot and mouth disease in this country. One of our greatest competitors on the continent of Europe is the Argentine Republic and some other South American countries, where foot and mouth disease prevails most of the time. Looking to the West, there is also a market springing up on the Pacific ocean.


Mr. MORPHY:: In regard to these cattle from Canada which you have shipped to Great Britain, is there any restriction upon their entry as there was formerly?
M. TOLMIE: Those cattle that I spoke oi were shipped to the continent of Europe. I will touch upon the British embargo a little later.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Are they admitted free to the continent of Europe?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: But not into England?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: what are known as "accredited herds'' in an effort on our part to eliminate tuberculosis from our pure-bred herds. We hope that by creating little nuclei of pure-bred herds we will soon start on the road towards getting rid of tuberculosis in this country, a disease which is causing serious losses in all the countries of the world. We also deal with hog cholera and comparing our work with that of the United States we find that we have made very much better progress in dealing with that disease. According to the latest figures hog cholera in this country .amounted to only one-half of one per cent. Dourine is another disease that has caused great I0S6 among horses in Alberta and this disease has been practically wiped out as a result of our efforts. The success of this work is largely due to Dr. Watson who was in the employ of the department and who was able to isolate the organism which was responsible for the disease and to develop a serum which was very useful in reducing and controlling it. In Alberta we have also what is known as mange; and this area lias been under quarantine for some time on account of the cattle having mange, which is a skin disease'. We expect to be able to get rid of this disease during the coming summer. We have an organization and equipment for dealing with the matter and hon. gentlemen will appreciate the magnitude of the undertaking when I mention that we will require baths to give a lime and sulphur bath to over 200,000 head of cattle.
W7e have also raised the standard of veterinary teaching in this country. Tnat is very important because we have over a billion dollars invested in the livestock industry. Within the last few years there have been serious outbreaks of foot and mouth disease on the American side and had we been at all careless we would have had this disease in Canada and we would have lost many millions of dollars. Thanks however, to the vigilance of our Health of Animals Branch, the disease was kept out.
Animals are subject to other diseases which, while not included in our Contagious Diseases Act, cause serious losses. For instance, our losses per year on poultry alone amount to over $7,000,000. Contagious abortion and sterility in cattle, and internal .parasites .require very careful mvestiga/tkwi, so that in that way we secure information of great value to the farmer.
Now, while the importance of pure-bred sires and the better breeding of livestock cannot be overestimated, the production of pure seed is just as important. We have in connection with the Department of Agricul-
IJIr. Tolmie.]
ture a Seed Branch, whose business it is to encourage the use of new and improved varieties of seed, and to disseminate propaganda on the value of using improved seed. We have a system of stimulating the' interest of farmers in this work by distributing to them good varieties to be grown under certain conditions, and many farmers become seed-growing specialists. In this way a great deal of valuable seed is turned out every year. Then we have a system under which seed grown under certain restrictions is eligible for registration, and last year we produced * 100,000 bushels of registered seed. We also encourage the use of improved seed through field crop competitions, seed fairs, and provincial seed exhibitions, by which means several million bushels of high quality seed is produced annually, and this registered seed is doled out to the seed men throughout the country, so that our work affects the whole Dominion.
What are the actual results obtained? There has been a great increase in the production of timothy seed in Alberta. A few years ago only a small quantity was grown, but last year no less than 20,000 bushels were produced. Our Canadian market can consume 300,000 bushels of this seed annually, and the export market would take 2,000,000 bushels if we had it to sell. In 1918 the clover seed of the country was valued at no less than $10,000,000. Clover seed has been produced of excellent quality, particularly on the clay lands of Northern Ontario. Before the war practically all our field and vegetable seed was imported from Germany and other European countries, but owing to the excellent work performed by our Seed Branch we are now able not only to supply our domestic demand but to export in considerable quantities.
Much has been done too in creating seed potato centres .for the production of disease-free seed. This has made a tremendous difference in some sections. The lower St. Uawrence valley has established an excellent reputation for producing high-class potato seed, and northern grown Canadian seed of all kinds is gaining a very good reputation throughout the continent.
During the war the Seed Branch took up emergency seed distribution to meet the prevailing war conditions, and they established a Seed Purchasing Commission, which did very effective work in maintaining a supply of seed during the whole war period in spite of very heavy handicaps. This Commission had a turn-over of $12,000,000, every cent of which has Been returned tto the Receiver

General, and in addition they were able to pay all operating expenses.
I may point- out for the benefit of hon. members from the West that it is not the intention of the department to withdraw the Seed Purchasing Commission from the western provinces- until normal conditions are reached in that section.
The Fruit Branch has also been rendering . very excellent service by enforcing the Inspection and Sale Act, inspecting and grading fruit and the filling of packages, and by giving practical demonstrations in orchard cultivation, pruning, spraying, grading and so forth. They also carry on inspection at the point of shipment. In this way they protect our trade by ensuring that the fruit is sent to market in first-class condition, and where found satisfactory, certificates are given on carload lots, which assist the sale of the fruit at destination.
Crop reports are issued by telegraph during the growing season, and when the sales are proceeding in Great Britain we receive market reports which are sent all over the country so as to place the grower on a perfectly sound footing in marketing his produce. Attention is also given to railway and express tariffs and the handling of fruit in transit.
It is a matter of more than passing interest in this connection that Great Britain is proving to be our one big market of importance. Another matter of interest is that box fruit is becoming much more popular. In addition to our export business with Great Britain, we also ship to the United States, Australia and New Zealand in their off seasons when they have no fruit to sell.
Our Experimental Farm system is rendering a very valuable service to the country, but unfortunately it is not perhaps as well appreciated as it might be. Our stations are situated in all the provinces, and particular care is taken an carrying on experiments in regard to adaptability of the soil for production, climatic conditions, and so forth in new sections. All this information is made immediately available for the farmers in those districts. For instance, a settler going in can immediately secure full information on the best means of growing crops in that section by applying to the Experimental Farm. It is estimated that this service is worth $60,000,000 a year to the country. Frequently we hear people complaining that our Experimental Farms do not pay. This is rather an unreasonable attitude when we take into. consideration the very small plots of ground that are used for carrying
on experimental work, in some cases not more than one-fortieth of an acre, which it is necessary to cultivate by hand-the most expensive kind of work. In the event of something of value being discovered, it is not given to the public right away, but further experiments are conducted in control plots, and the experiments may run over four or five years to make sure of the correctness of the results obtained before tha information is passed on to the farmers. After all, the real harvest and profit from an experimental plot is not the small amount of grain, roots or seed that may be obtained from it, it is the information that is filed away in the office for the use of our farmers.
The Entomological Branch is also rendering good service, but it is very little known. The work has to do with the destruction of parasites injurious to crops. Hon. members will perhaps be surprised to learn that our losses from injurious parasites amount to $125,000,000 a year. In some parts of the West, in Saskatchewan, Manitoba and also in Alberta, we are now threatened with a grass-hopper plague. We are combatting these grass-hoppers by treating them with a mixture consisting of arsenic, bran and molasses. To give an idea of the extent of our operations in co-operation with the Provincial Governments, I may say that the work will require 100,000 pounds of arsenic, 2,000 tons of bran and 50,000 gallons of molasses for the purpose. When we take into consideration the fact that from 2 to 4 grains of arsenic are sufficient to kill a human being, I think we may reasonably expect that 50 tons of arsenic will take the hop out of a considerable number of those grass-hoppers. It has been suggested that we try poisonous gases for this purpose. There are many difficulties in the way, but we are carrying on a quiet investigation and if there is any promise of success we may go further with the matter. The brown-tail moth is another parasite that has caused a lot of trouble to our orchards in the East, but luckily that pest is now almost under control. In British Columbia we have what is known as pear thrips, which have done some damage to orchards out there. As an illustration of what has been done by the Entomological Branch, I may .say that in one particular orchard that I know of the yield in one year was only 700 boxes of pears. That year work was commenced by the Entomological Branch and in the next year the harvest amounted to 7,000 boxes.
The Entomological Branch has been 'brought to .a high is'tate of efficiency by tihe

late Dr. C. Gordon Hewitt, a gentleman of high scientific attainment and of very large calibre. We were unfortunate enough to lose him through death some weeks ago. He possessed great executive ability, and his loss will be a serious one to agriculture and to science, not only in Canada, but all over the world; for he was becoming widely known on account of his scientific attainments. I wish to pay this tribute to Dr. Hewitt's ability and tp the very great work that he performed in this country.
Another new line of industry that is doing well and making good progress is the tobacco industry. The crop last year amounted to over 20,000,000 pounds, worth about 18,000,000. But this industry is only in its early stages; there is a great deal to be done in securing co-operation so as to facilitate the putting up of curing plants and the improvement of marketing facilities. The Department of Agriculture has been interesting itself in this industry. We have a man overseas who is looking into the possibilities of the British market and trying to make arrangements for the selling of Canadian tobacco. When he returns we expect that he will bring with him a great deal of valuable information which will help us to attain this end.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I have taken up a great deal of the time of the committee, but I thought it advisable to outline rather briefly the possibilities of agriculture in this country. I have also directed attention to the important part that agriculture can play in meeting our present financial situation. The prospects for development, I think you will agree, are practically unlimited. In briefly summarizing the situation, I may say that it will be the object of the department to facilitate and encourage production and better methods of farming by the medium of education, demonstration and illustration; to encourage a system of mixed farming with live stock as a basis; to increase and encourage better feeding, finishing and marketing of live stock; to develop our export trade in agricultural products; to expand our marketing policy in every posible way and to have our goods, when they are placed on the market, of such quality and in such condition as to enable us to meet successfully any competition that may offer; to improve and extend our facilities for handling perishable products; to conserve carefully the health of our live stock and to maintain the high reputation we now possess in this connection.; to assist in the development fMr. Tolmie.]
of special lines of production which have not yet become thoroughly established; to encourage co-operation and co-operative selling; to improve transportation facilities for handling our products; to investigate the possibilities of securing cheaper money for our farmers so as to enable them to increase their production; to use our best efforts to rigidly apply such legislation as is on the statute book for the protection of the farmer.
I feel that a policy of this kind is an absolutely safe one and can bring about nothing but the best results. Of course, our efforts in this connection will be limited to the amount of expenditure that we shall be able to make. After travelling all over Canada I find myself to be more than ever a thorough believer in this country. I am more strongly than ever impressed with the extent of our wonderful resources. There should really -be no pessimism at this time on the part of our Canadian people, if they will only consider the tremendous wealth of this country and its possibilities. While it is necessary to apply taxation to meet our immediate requirements, it should -be but. a temporary burden and but a side line to a big progressive movement for more business and the development of our wonderful opportunities in agricultural and natural resources. All that is required is an intelligent handling of the situation, and I feel that with the spirit of the Canadian people behind it no safer plan of action can be adopted and nothing is surer of success than the policy which I have indicated.


William Henry White: Without presuming to be the agricultural critic on this side, I may say that although I agree with nearly everything the minister has said, particularly with his remarks respecting the improvement of stock by breeding and feeding, it is possible that some of the minister's figures may be misleading. If I understood him aright, he said, speaking of the loss that Canadian producers had sustained in the matter of hogs, that the weight of these animals might have been increased with advantage to the producer. Well, it is possible that if the weight had been increased there would have been a greater loss to the producer. Not every one may know that there are certain limitations as to size and weight. Hogs in our country weighing from 175 to 225 pounds are worth four, five, sometimes six cents a pound more than those which go above that weight. So that the statements given out by the min-

ister might mislead some who have not much practical knowledge or who are beginners, and who might sustain a loss rather than make a profit if this suggestion of the minister was adopted. A few years ago a young mam who had invested a considerable amount of money in live stock in my part of the country was trying to. follow the directions issued by the Central Experimental Farm. He was feeding the hogs on rations as laid down by that branch of the Department, but he was feeding them under different circumstances. In the Experimental Farm the hogs had the benefit of steam coils to keep them warm, but this young man was feeding them in a stable in which the temperature was not very well regulated; consequently he lost his stock by following that advice.
The minister gave us examples of what can be done by breeding. He told us of a certain cow that was sold for $15,000 and about large production of milk being obtained under certain circumstances. Well, very often these large productions of milk cost more than the milk itself is really worth. A few years ago I saw at the Winter Fair in Ottawa a cow that was making a record by producing 100 or 108 pounds of milk a day. But the fact of the matter was that they were giving her that milk to drink, after adding some other foods to it, and it was costing more to get that increased production than the production was worth. I simply point to these facts in case people might be carried away by the minister's statement that everybody should go into the raising of expensive stock and that if they did they would find a ready market for it.
We know that high prices are paid for the winners in ali classes of animals. For instance, a few years ago in Chicago a rancher from my province bought a purebred Hereford bull for $27,000. It took a judge two days to decide which was the better of the two, this bull and another one, and the one that was placed next to this one in the prize list, sold for $3,010. This is simply a case of the top price being given for the one which became famous owing to the fact that he was a prize winner. Some time ago a Boston terrier sold for $15,000. The animal was, of course, not worth that; he was not, for utility purposes, worth more than any cur running about the streets; but he was a prize winner at the show, and somebody wanted him and was willing to pay this price.
As regards the record cow of which the minister spoke, if he had given us figures
to show how many cows were used for dairy purposes, and what was the average production and its value, per cow, the people of the country would know what there was in dairying. As regards prizes and encouragement given by the Government to carloads of steers and other things, in many cases the expense is greater than the value of the prize.
The minister has stated that we do not feed our animals enough, but I think the average farmer throughout the country feeds in the most profitable way. When hay is worth $60 a ton, as it was this year in the western country, and a man was induced to put three or four tons of hay into an animal during the six months of feeding there was this winter, he would not find that profitable advice when he discovered that he had put $250 worth of feed into a steer that would not sell for $120. Circumstances alter cases, and the average farmer may be trusted to know pretty nearly what pays him and what does not. Although we are all in favour of improving stock and the breeding of cattle, and we have every confidence that the minister, as an old showman and a man who has handled a great deal of stock, will give the stock breeders all the encouragement they can possibly expect from the present Minister of Agriculture, I was just pointing out these facts, because I am afraid he looks at the stock business more with the eye of a showman than as a practical man who is making a living out of the business. I have always used pure-bred sires in all classes of animals, and I have always had a herd of pure-bred cattle; but the man who makes the money makes it, not out of his purebred herd, but out of his grade herd, and the bigger the grade herd, the more money he makes. In the western country, every stock man who looks after his business well makes money out of his grade herd, but I do not know of any who have made money by going into the high-class, pure-bred stock. The reason for that is that there is room for only one or two at the top of this kind of breeding, and if many went into the business, the result would be disastrous.
While I appreciate what the minister has said, I do not take his figures altogether seriously when he * says that we should continue feeding our hogs and cattle when it is not profitable to do so. If the average man carried his hogs over until they obtained a weight of four or five or six hundred pounds, he would find he was losing money. After a hog gets over the

select weight of, say 175 to 225 pounds, the extra expense of making it heavier would mean only less profit to the producer. Perhaps those who were turning their cattle off at lighter weights, found that paid them better than to carry them over until they reached a heavier weight. Many ranchers in Alberta made a great mistake last year in not selling because prices were a little lower than usual. They could have got eight or nine cents a pound for their stock, but they would not sell as they had been accustomed to higher prices. Now they find that they have added to the cost of their steers possibly $120 to $150; in many cases they have not as many as they had before, and they find that steers have cost them more to carry over than they are really worth. Therefore, there is no fixed rule. That is the only difference I have with the minister who says that we should carry these animals over until they reach a certain weight. Sometimes that would be a very expensive experiment. The average stock breeder knows when he should sell and when he should not, and my experience is that they never lose very much money through not knowing what to do when the proper time comes. Sometimes, on paper, statements are made apparently showing an enormous waste; but if people knew the circumstances of the matter, they would find that the average stockman, no matter what kind of stock he is handling, is getting out of that stock practically all the money there is in it.
Mr. TOLM3IE,: I appreciate what the hon. member, who is recognized as one of our prominent stockmen in Alberta, has said, but I should like to correct one or two of the statements he has made. In the first place, I did not advocate the production of the thick-fat, heavy hog to a weight of six or seven hundred pounds. I said that these hogs should average 220 pounds, which is the ideal bacon hog. As regards the high producing cows, perhaps I am wrong, but I have had experience in this line; I have maintained a dairy herd, and the best paying cow I ever had was one that gave 112 pounds in a day or 25,560 pounds m 115 months.


William Henry White: I qualified my statement by saying that I did not know anything about the dairy business, but I had watched one particular cow that was making a record at the winter fair, and I know that everything that she produced was turned back into her with something added to keep up the production. I do not pre-[,Mr. W. H. White]
tend to be a dairyman; I never had a dairy cow in my life.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: In British Columbia we have plenty of grass and fodder, and it is unnecessary to feed a cow her own milk.


William Henry White: They do not make records.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The milk is usually worth much more. The particular cow I have mentioned with a record of 32,000 pounds, is one I have watched and known ever since she was landed as a heifer in British Columbia, and she has been most profitable in every way. As regards the high price of hay in Alberta, my hon. friend will agree with me that this is a most exceptional year, and the department has spent nearly a million dollars in assisting farmers in the matter of hay alone.


William Henry White: And more light cattle were sold.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: My experience as regards the pure-bred stock versus the grade in the average herd is that under ordinary conditions, particularly in dairying, the purebred animal is worth more than the grade. )In the first place she will produce more milk as a rule; she has just as good a constitution as the grade when she is properly kept, and her calf is worth often ten times as much money as the calf of the grade cow. As regards the light cattle I mentioned in Toronto, these were not ranch cattle but cattle that had come largely from Ontario and Quebec. If the hon. member had seen them, I am sure he would have agreed with me that the country was suffering a tremendous loss that might have: been avoided ,by 'burning bhese, cattle off during the grazing season or by making better provision for food.


RAILWAY ESTIMATES.
Hon. J. D. REID (Minister of Railways and Canals):: An arrangement was made
with the leader of the Opposition that we should take up the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture this afternoon in order that the minister might make a statement. But for that arrangement we could not have proceeded with the Estimates this afternoon, under the rules of the House. I understand that an hon. member on the other side wishes to address the House in connection with the Department of Railways and Canals, and in order to meet the convenience of the leader of the Opposition in that respect, I would suggest that we take up a

non-eontentious item in the Estimates of the Department of Railways and Canals, which we can pass after the hon. member has made his statement, and then return to the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. I therefore move that further discussion of the item before the House be postponed for the present and that we take up item No. 337, reading as follows:
Railways and Canals-Miscellaneous-compassionate allowance to the widow,and children of the late J. I,. A. Frobe, who was killed while In discharge of his duty as brakeman on Canadian Government railways at Ashton Junction, Que., on Sept. 11, 1918.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. FRANK S. CAHILL (Pontiac): There is a despatch in the Ottawa Journal of April 27, 1920, as follows:
Hanna Starts Suit Against F. S. Cahill. President of Canadian National Sues Member for Pontiac.
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Nesbitt):: Is it
unanimously understood that the hon. member need not confine his remarks to the item before the committee?


John Dowsley Reid: I would ask the committee to allow the hon. member to discuss on this particular item the matter which he wishes to bring before the House. If we took an item to which the matter he is going to discuss would be more relevant, I would not expect the committee to pass it to-day.


The CHAIRMAN:: I just wished to have it thoroughly understood, so that there will be no misunderstanding afterwards.


Mr. CAHILL:: the benefit of whom? Apparently for the benefit of the Canadian Northern Town Properties Company, Limited, of which Mr. Hanna is given as president.
Now, Mr. Chairman, in looking over Poor's Manual, I find that the Canadian Government did not take over the Inverness Railway and Coal Company when taking over the Canadian Northern, and you will find in the Auditor General's Report for the year ended March 31, 1919, Volume 3, page W-171, the following:
Inverness Railway & Coal Co.: run of mine, 83,304.35 net tons at $5.25.
On the same page you will find the following :
Dominion Coal Co., Glace Bay, Springhill, St. John and Sydney: run of mine, 153.1 net tons at $3.79.
Now, if you turn to Poor's Manual of Railroads for 1919 and look up the Inverness Railway and Coal Company you will find that the corporate officers are Sir William Mackenzie, Sir Donald Mann, R. E. Macleod, and so on. It is quite apparent from that, that the company of which Mr. Hanna is president is buying coal from the company of which Sir William Mackenzie is president. It is also quite apparent that the Canadian National Railway Company, of which Mr. Hanna is president, is in a position to bring business to the towns that may be benefited, which are the property of the Canadian Northern Town Properties Company, Limited.
Mr. Hanna can go on with his suit if he so desires. As far as I am concerned, I have absolutely no fear of it. He has the whole force of the Dominion Government back of him; he has the whole force of the finances of Canada back of him; he has the whole force of the legal luminaries of Canada back of him; and if that is not enough he has in the Act, Chapter 13, Statutes of Canada, 1919, section 6, the following:
No director of the company shall he under any personal responsibility to any shareholder, director, officer or employee of the company, nor to any other person, nor, except with the approval of the Governor in Council, shall be subject to any pecuniary penalty under the provisions of any statute, in respect of his office, or any act done or omitted to be done by him in the execution thereof.
So that Mr. Hanna is exceedingly well hedged about toy everything that can possibly tend to make him safe. He is in a position that makes it possible for him to go just as far as he likes, for he has behind him the Treasury of Canada, and is backed toy the legal advice of his depart-

ment. He has the whole Government ol Canada behind him and furthermore he is immune by reason of an Act of Parliament. Now, I have given these circumstances to the committee, and if Mr. Hanna can refute them he is welcome to do so; and, it is the duty of the Government to satisfy us in the matter. When we come to the Estimates on Railwiays and Canals I shall be prepared to take up with the Minister of Railwiays several other items in regard to which I desiire information, but I merely make this statement now to show that Mr. Hanna is very far from being correct when he says that he is not interested in the town sites along the Canadian Northern railway and is not buying coal from the Mackenzie and Mann interests. In the Senate Detoates of the session of 1919, June 25, at page 745, there appears the following extract from a letter written by G. J. Hammon, President of the Basque Chemical Production Co., Ltd.:
Without any desire to be unreasonably critical in regard to this delay, but wishing to determine what service we might expect from the Canadian Northern, we have been investigating and have recently discovered that there have been very frequent delays to trains on account of the poor quality of coal used in the engines on the Canadian Northern line. It seems that this coal is being used on account of a contract made by the Canadian Northern with a mine near Brule Lake, Alberta, (of which we are informed Mr. R. .T. Mackenzie is the principal owner) before the Government took over its operation. This contract was made at a price approximately $1.00 per ton higher than was paid by the Grand Trunk Pacific at the same time for better coal.
I want .to (bring this matter to the attention of the committee simply because there is a widespread opinion in this country thait the Canadian National railways are not getting a square deal under the management of Mr. Hanna and Mackenzie and Mann, and if the Government are in a position to clear up the matter and to show that there is nothing between these people we shall be glad to have a statement. We on this side, however, insist on having everything laid on the table clearly and distinctly, and above board.


John Dowsley Reid: The action which the hon. member says Mr. Hanna has taken against him, as reported in the press, is of course a personal matter of which neither the Government nor I have any knowledge. We have had nothing to do with that matter and must of course leave it to Mr. Hanna and the hon. member to settle. The hon. member still persists in the statement that Mr. Hanna

has an interest in connection with Mackenzie and Mann, and I gather from his remarks that he stands by his position in this matter. If this suit should go on it will undoubtedly be well 'to have all these statements cleared up, and I am sure that every step should be taken, if the matter goes before the courts, to see that the situation is made absolutely plain. In order to prove his case my hon. friend has referred to a particular instance, namely, the Inverness Coal Company, and be argues that the very fact of the Government having purchased coal from the Inverness Coal Company shows that they are doing business with the Mackenzie and Mann interests.'


Frank S. Cahill: The price is $1.25 higher.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member says that the price is $1.25 higher. Well, 1 have not with me the information that would enable me to state the facts as they are, but the prices of coal in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and at the several mines were fixed by the Fuel Controller, Mr. Magrath, and if I remember rightly they were based on the cost of production. I remember that in the case of the Inverness Coal Company the cost of production was exceedingly high. I shall 'be glad to bring down the report of the Fuel Controller and have it laid on the Table for the information of all hon. members and of the hon. member (Mr. Cahill) in particular; but speaking from memory I can say that the cost of production in the case of the Inverness Coal Company was very much higher than almost that of any other company in the province of Nova Scotia. There is also another point to be considered in connection with the Inverness Coal Company. It is true that it shows a higher price than the Dominion Coal Company, but if the hon. member will read the report, I think he will see that there are other companies that are much higher than the Dominion Coal Company.


Frank S. Cahill: Not that I can find.


John Dowsley Reid: Perhaps not. As I say, I am only trusting to my memory without having had an opportunity to look very carefully into the matter. Now, the Inverness Coal Company is situated, I believe, some sixty miles away from the Intercolonial railway, and the Inverness railway, which has to carry the coal from the place of production, charges $1.00 or $1.25 a ton for conveying it to the Intercolonial railway at Point Tupper. It costs us, say, $5.50 right where it is there,
whereas if we had to purchase it from the Dominion Coal Company, there would be the freight to Point Tupper, which would practically make it the same. The price as mentioned by the hon. member of, say, $5.25 for the coal that was purchased for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1919, in my opinion, would not have been the price that was fixed by the Canadian National railways because it is generally arranged in the spring before. It must have been arranged about March 1918. The Intercolonial railway was not taken over by the Canadian National railways until about the end of 1918. That contract had been arranged before. If so the prices were arranged by the fuel controller and those who were asso-
5 p.m. ciated with him. I remember at the time seeing a discussion with the fuel controller as to the prices of coal in Nova Scotia. The prices at some of the mines being more than at others, they had to decide where the coal should be bought if the men were to be kept employed.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: The cost of production differed at different mines?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes. At the Dominion Iron and Steel Company the coal they produce is not only the best but the cost of production is very much less than in any other mine in the district. I would like to satisfy the House as to the correctness of what I say from the report of Mr. Magrath. I am sure I can satisfy the House and the country that the prices that were paid for coal in the lower provinces during the years of the war were fair and just and in the public interest, that they were fixed by the commission and that Mr. Hanna or any of the officers of the Canadian National railways had nothing to do with them at that particular time. The Inverness Coal Company was not originally started by Sir William Mackenzie. If I remember rightly, the Intercolonial railway had been purchasing coal from that company for many years and Sir William Mackenzie and his associates were not in possesion of the coal company at that time. They are not in possession of it at the present time for the reason that it went into liquidation. The liquidator, Mr. McGillivray, has been operating the company for six or seven years. He has absolute control of the coal mine and Sir William Mackenzie, Mr. Hanna, or any of Mr. Hanna's associates, had nothing to do with the prices of coal purchased for the Intercolonial railway. When my Estimates are brought down I will have all this information here and I will be glad to give it to the
2.382

hon. member. If it will assist him in anyway by throwing any light on the purchase of coal or any other supplies he will have it and he will be able to see that not all of the statements made by him are correct. Mr. Hanna has assured me that he has never had anything to do with any of these townsites, and that he does not own any lots and I must rely on his statement until the hon. member or any other person can give me any evidence that the statement is not correct.


Frank S. Cahill: He signs the statement.


ESTIMATES-DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE RESUMED.
[Stage Direction]
Experimental Farms-maintenance of Centra Farm and maintaining of additional branch stations, $1,200,000.
Hon. MACKENZIE KING:: Mr. Chairman, I rise only for the purpose of joining with my hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Tolmie) in the tribute he has paid to the memory of the late Dr. Gordon Hewitt, Dominion Entomologist. It was my privilege to know Dr. Hewitt personally and I am sure that all who shared his acquaintance will agree with the statement that in his death this country has lost not only one of its ablest scientists, but also one of its most public spirited citizens. There was no activity of a public nature in this community in which a private citizen could share that Dr. Hewitt was not ever ready to play his part. In the work upon which he was engaged for the Government he will be remembered as one of the most faithful and efficient public servants, as well as one of the most distinguished. Though comparatively young, I think he was not more than thirty-five at the time of his death-the record of his scientific work has not been surpassed in the branches with which he was associated by any other member of the public service. T believe the tribute paid by the minister is one in which every hon. member of this House will be glad to share.


Mr. PARDEE:: How many experimental farms are there?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Twenty.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: How are they distributed amongst the different provinces?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Two in Nova Scotia, one in New Brunswick, one in Prince Edward Island, five in Quebec, three in Ontario, two in Manitoba, three in Saskatchewan, two in Alberta, and four in British Columbia.


Mr. PROULX:: Where are they located in Ontario outside of the one at Ottawa?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: One at Kapuskasing in the north and one at Harrow in Essex county.


Mr. PELLETIER:: Is it the intention of the Government to increase the number of demonstration farms? I have been asking for one in my riding for six or seven years but I have been unable to get a definite answer yet. My predecessor, Mr. Boulay, pressed for the establishment of a demonstration farm until 1917, and I have been asking for it ever since I have been here. We have no experimental farm below Ste. Anne's and that is 180 miles above Matane. If we had a demonstration farm it would greatly help the farmers whom I represent. My riding is divided by the Causapscal mountains and we really need two farms. If we had one at Amqui or Causapscal and one at Matane I am sure that it would be a great advantage to agriculture in my riding and the surrounding country. I would like to know if it ,is the intention of the Government to grant our request and to continue the work which was started a few years ago.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The department very
fully realizes the importance of these farms and the very excellent work they are doing in many parts of Canada. We have requisitions from the Atlantic to the Pacific for the establishment of such farms, and it is our intention to establish more of them just as soon as we can get the finances necessary for the purpose.


Mr. TURGEON:: A couple of years ago
I asked for the establishment of an Experimental Farm in the county of Gloucester where the location of the district is admirably adapted for the purpose. At the time my hon. friend from Marquette (Mr. Crerar) was Minister of Agriculture, but as he left office not long afterwards I cannot attribute to him any neglect in not attending to my request. The deputy Minister of Agriculture,-whom I see with the minister, -knows the country very well. He knows that the situation all along the north shore of New Brunswick when you cross the Restigouche is one of the finest in any part of the Dominion, and it would certainly be a very appropriate and useful site for an experimental station. I again draw the attention of the present minister to my request, and I hope that before another year has passed he will have given it his favourable consideration.


Mr. W. C. KENNEDY (North Essex):: Has the minister under consideration increasing the acreage of the farm at Harrow?
Mr. TOLMIE; That matter is under consideration.


Mr. DENIS:: (Mr. Chairman, I have
listened with great pleasure to the pronouncement made by the Minister of Agriculture with regard to the different branches of his department, but I did not hear him make any statement about our tobaccogrowing industry. As I am particularly interested, and as I consider it of vital interest to this country, I propose to make a few remarks on the subject and to ask the hon. minister to be kind enough to answer a question which I shall put to him.
Our people generally perhaps are not fully aware of the significance of our tobacco industry. If we look at the statistics we shall find that last year we grew approximately 26,000,000 pounds of tobacco, and we imported, almost wholly from the United States, in the neighbourhood of 25,000,000 pounds. So that our tobacco consumption in round figures is about 50,000,000 pounds a year, of which we are producing only 50 per cent. The tobacco crop yields our farmers an annual revenue of many million dollars, and as the industry is practically unlimited, the export demand never being met, it seems to me that the industry should receive the greatest consideration on the part of the Government.
If we increased our tobacco production, we could, in the first instance, supply practically the whole of our domestic needs; that is to say, I think that about 45,000,000 pounds of the 50,000,000 pounds we consume could be supplied by our tobacco growers. Of course, there will always be certain brands of tobacco in demand which cannot be produced in Canada. Then if our production should exceed our consumption, we have unlimited markets abroad. For instance, England is importing from the United States, if I am not mistaken, in the neighbourhood of 300,000,000 pounds of tobacco annually. Now, with our preferential tariff we can secure an advantage on the English market, so that no matter what our production might -be we should always have an open market for our surplus crop.
I do not intend to make a fuller statement until the Budget debate. But for the time being I deem it my duty in the interest of the country generally, as well as in the particular interest of
the district of Joliette which I have the honour to represent

a district which is producing many million pounds of tobacco each year-to bring to the attention of the Minister of Agriculture, of whose goodwill and sincerity I am well aware, the very great importance of our tobacco-growing industry, and to ask him what the Government is doing to encourage our growers.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The Government is very
much alive to the situation. A short time ago the tobacco seed used was of many varieties, some quite unsuitable for this country. The Government took [DOT] the matter up and last year distributed 904 ounces of free seed, and sold 1,940 ounces, a sufficient amount to plant, on a conservative estimate, 17,064 acres. In addition to taking that step, we have had conferences with our tobacco growers, and have carried on experiments at our various experimental farms for their benefit; and realizing that one of the best methods of putting the business on a sound footing is to insure the producer a good marked we have sent a man overseas to make a careful study of the whole situation with a view7 to establishing a selling connection between the growers of this country and the consumers of Great Britain. We expect he will return in a short time and will have very valuable information to impart to our tobacco growers.


Mr. DEVLIN:: Who is the man who was sent across?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Mr. Felix Charlan, chief
of the tobacco division.


Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: How many dedemonstration farms are there in the province of Quebec, and where are they situated?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Experimental farms?


Joseph Archambault: Demonstration
farms.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Aubrey, Lachute, Paspebiac West, Stanbridge East, Cap Chat, Drummondville, Lac a la Fortune, L'As-somiption, Little Cascapedia, Rimouski, St. Clet, St. Julie. St. Gedeon. St. Jules and St. Etienne des Gres.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Are these all maintained by the Dominion Government?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: How many are there in Ontario?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: None.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: What is the reason for the distinction? Are there no illustration stations in Ontario aside from the experimental farms?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We are just commencing this system of illustration farms and we have selected districts where we think they are most needed. In Ontario agriculture is established in a pretty sound way; there is more pure-bred stock, and in some respects the farming sections are more advanced in Ontario than, perhaps, in any other part of Canada. The system will be followed up, however; we have several sites under consideration in Ontario and elsewhere.


Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG:: I congratulate the minister on the most excellent statement he has made in connection with experimental farms. Some years ago I directed the attention of the Department of Agriculture to the need of an illustration farm in the western peninsula. A variety of products are growm there, and I do not need to emyphasize the necessity for the establishment in that district of an illustration farm at the earliest possible day. I hope the minister will see to it that this is done.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The western peninsula
has been receiving very careful consideration in that direction since I have been in office.	.


Mr. LEGER:: I wanted to know if there were any illustration farms in New Brunswick.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Ten are planned for this year. The sites have been selected.


William Costello Kennedy: How much of this vote is to be spent at Harrow, and how does the amount provided this year compare with the amount spent last year?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: $7,175, the same as last year.
Mr. J. E. S. E. d'ANJOU (Rimouski) (Translation):	Mr. Chairman, while we
were dealing, earlier in the session, with a resolution advocating the establishment of further experimental farms in Canada, I took occasion to ask for the establishment of such a ifarm in the county of Rimouski, and I shall improve this further opportunity, since we are now voting sums for the experimental farms to broach the subject once more. Of course, my honourable friend cannot follow me, but the deputy minister is, I believe, familiar with the French lan-

guage and will convey my meaning to the honourable minister.
The county of Rimouski is surely one of the most beautiful and flourishing counties in the province of Quebec; it is by all means a banner county; the farmers who live there are progressive people who are solicitous for the extension of the farming industry in this country.
I am easier to please than my honourable friend from Matane (Mr. Pelletier) and shall not ask for the establishment of two experimental farms in the county of Rimouski. I shall be content, with an experimental farm in the town of Rimouski itself:


François Jean Pelletier: I am not asking for two experimental farms; I want two illustration stations.
Mr. d'ANJOU (Translation):	I beg my
honourable friend's pardon if I misconstrued his remarks. I understood that he was asking for an experimental farm at Amqui and another one at Matane.
At all events, it seems to me the Government should leave no stone unturned , towards establishing such farms almost all over the country. True it is that the financial affairs of Canada are in a bad way, but after all. money can always be found and money spent in the furtherance of these objects would be spent in the best interests of the country.
Therefore, I am confident that the honourable minister will take my request into earnest consideration and that, ere long, the county of Rimouski will have a fine and important experimental farm.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We have a farm at Ste. Anne, and it would be hardly practicable to establish another at the place to which my hon. friend refers. As things develop we may consider that.


Mr. McKENZIE:: I must commend the minister on the very able and exhaustive address he delivered in connection with this item. His speech contained a great deal of very valuable information, some of it highly scientific. 'I suggest that that speech be published in pamphlet form, with any direct suggestions that might be made by the minister or his officials in connection with it, and put in the hands of every farmer in Canada. A good deal of it, of course, cannot be lived up to, but it is well to aim high, even if the high standard which is set up cannot always be attained. May 1 ask where the illustration farms in Nova Scotia are located?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: One at Nappan and one at Kentville.
Mr. MeKEINZIE: I think it would be a , splendid thing if at least one of these farms could be brought in touch with the Agricultural College at Truro. It is an ambitious little institution. It is not very old, having been established, I believe, in 1904 or 1905.


William Stevens Fielding: Earlier than that.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I see that my hon. friend (Mr. Fielding) claims this college as a product of the time when he was Premier of Nova Scotia. I was in the local legislature for five years from 1900 to 1905 and I remember we had arguments in regard to this matter, but I shall not doubt the statement of my hon. friend that it had its beginnings in his days. This college has made very good progress, and while the Dominion department may be helping it as regards demonstration on farms and showing in a general way what can be done by proper experiments, I should be pleased to see that co-operation carried on more extensively. In the island from which I come, with its large population and its vast industrial interests and developments, there are no agricultural stations at all, either provincial or Dominion. I need not tell the minister that, with the great population that we have, steel workers and coal miners, lumbermen and fishermen, all of them good in their way, but none of them producing anything from the soil, it is highly desirable that the farmers should be given every encouragement to produce as much as is necessary for the upkeep of our local population. There is nothing like seeing what can be done; scientific lectures and all that sort of thing are very good; but the real thing that comes home to the farmer is to have a demonstration on a piece of land which is like his own so that he may see that, if he takes the proper steps, whatever results Can be obtained on the demonstration farm, may be obtained by him. If there were two or three demonstration farms in the whole island, say near such centres as Sydney, North Sydney or Sydney Mines, where there are large populations and good soil, but where it is hard to get farmers as the people are mostly coal miners or steel workers, such demonstration farms would be highly beneficial. In the island there are large numbers of Scotch people, who are naturally farmers, working in those mines, and if it were shown to them what could be done on Cape Breton soil, many of them might be induced to leave the steel works and the coal mines and to take up farming. I trust the minister will take this phase of the work of his department into his serious consideration.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I am glad to hear the remarks of the hon. member. I may say that I visited the Truro farm and was very much impressed with it. The acreage there is large; I was shown some excellent cattle, both dairy and beef breeds, and I think I saw one of the best standard-bred stallions I had seen for many years. The farm, under the, management of Mr. Cunnlmihg, seems to be very good. Many of these large provincial establishments have farms in connection with them, the same as at Guelph and other places; but the Dominion officials keep in close co-operation with them in all provinces, all working towards the one end.
As regards Cape Breton, we are at present planning to have an illustration station situated somewhere in that section of the country. These illustration farms are doing excellent work. An illustration station is operated under the management of an ordinary farmer who is selected on account, of his ability and the suitability of his farm for the purpose. He wTorks under the direction of our Experimental Farm Branch; he carries on the best system of rotation; he uses nothing but the best seed, and the farmers of his neighbourhood have an opportunity of profiting by the work that is being carried on. We trust that the illustration station we hope to establish in that section will render valuable service.


William Stevens Fielding: We know what an experimental farm is, but how does the minister define' a demonstration farm, which, I understand, is something on a smaller scale than an experimental farm?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We have in the Department of Agriculture no demonstration farms, and I do not know of the term being used anywhere in Canada except in Alberta. The Hon. Duncan Marshall, Minister of Agriculture of that province, has farms with schools in connection with them where the young farmers are given a short six months' course during the winter, being taught the handling of machinery, breeding of livestock, blacksmithing, harness making and many other things that might be useful to them on the farm during the coming summer. In the summer they work on their fathers' farms. This is a plan that has been adopted on the continent of Europe for some time, and in Alberta these places have produced excellent results.
2.386


William Stevens Fielding: I desire to associate
myself with my hon. friends on this side who have congratulated the minister on the full and interesting statement he has made.
I am glad to hear him saying a good word of the College of Agriculture at Truro, which began in a small way about 1685 or 1886.
I remember the beginning of it very well; it began as an attachment to the provincial normal school. At first it was a sort of agricultural department in the normal school. Later on buildings were erected; a farm was purchased, and my successors in office have developed it in a large way and I am glad to know that the college is doing excellent work. I am pleased to learn that an illustration farm will be located in Cape Breton. Even in a comparatively small province like Nova Scotia, we speak of East and West, and when the time came for the location of the School of Agriculture a little difficulty arose in connection with the location of it. The most attractive farm land in the province from some viewpoints was the Annapolis valley, and there was a strong desire to locate the institution there. It was, however, felt that an experimental farm should not be located at the most attractive point, but that a location should be. selected where the soil was of average quality, similar to that of the farms of the people it was intended to reach. Since the location of the provincial farm at Truro, the Dominion Government have located one at Kentville in the West. If the minister is able to increase the number of illustration stations, they would be very welcome. Did he mention where these were in Nova Scotia, other than the Kentville one?	.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: There is one at Nappan.


William Stevens Fielding: That is a branch of the Ottawa institution.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: So is Kentville.


William Stevens Fielding: I understand the Kentville farm is quite a small farm.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It is quite a large farm; I was there last fall.


William Stevens Fielding: Are there any more
besides those at Nappan and Kentville?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: In Nova Scotia ten illustration stations are being planned for at the present time.


William Stevens Fielding: I should like to make a suggestion to my hon. friend. If these illustration stations mean only comparatively small expenditures, although most of

my constituents are not farmers, a large number being fishermen and lumbermen, there is a large agricultural section in North [DOT] Queen's country, adjoining the county of Annapolis. This is an excellent agricultural district, and I should be glad if the minister, in selecting the locations of these illustration stations, would bear in mind the attractions and claims of that section.


Mr. CRERAR:: I regret I was not in the Chamber when the minister was making his statement preliminary to the introduction of these Estimates. It is possible that the minister may have referred to the suggestion which I shall now offer to the committee and to the minister for what it is worth. It is well known that, under the Act of Confederation, the powers of the provinces and the Dominion in matters of agricultural administration are equal. This has led to a considerable amount of duplication in the work that is carried on by the Dominion Department of Agriculture and the various provincial departments. For instance, I know it is a fact that many of the provincial Departments of Agriculture are carrying on work similar to that done by the Federal Government through its demonstration farms. Manitoba and Alberta, I know, have illustration farms. This means a very considerable increase in the total expenditure on this class of work. If my memory serves me right, the total amount spent by the Departments of Agriculture in Canada, both federal and provincial, runs to about $7,500,000 annually, and it has occurred to me that if a better understanding could be reached with the provinces in respect to the various fields of endeavour, probably a great deal more in the way of results might be achieved from this expenditure. This duplication applies not only to demonstration and illustration farms, but to other fields of activity in agriculture. Almost all the provinces, if not all of them, have departments dealing with livestock, as well as with dairying, beekeeping, poultry raising, in all of which fields the federal department is working. The Federal Government has its officials at the experimental farms in the provinces, and there is also another set of officials under provincial control, doing similar work. I think that possibly greater efficiency, without additional expenditure, could be secured if a better understanding could be reached between the provinces and the Federal Department of Agriculture in respect to their respective fields of inquiry and endeavour. That par-

tlcularly presses upon our attention at the present time because of the great burden of taxation which this country is facing. It is a case of making our dollars go just as far as we can and if the minister by cooperation with the provinces can promote a better understanding in this regard, he will be doing a real and genuine service to agriculture in this country. I know it is perhaps difficult to do. Unfortunately in the field of agriculture, as in some other departments of our governmental service, the provinces desire to carry on their own particular inquiries, and it is often a little difficult to adjust the differences and, shall I say, perhaps the jealousies, that may exist. Nevertheless, the task is one that I think should be undertaken, and I know of no time in our history that was more opportune to undertake it than now. I offer this suggestion to the minister and the Government for what it is worth. I think if they examine it closely they will find some merit in it.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I greatly appreciate the
suggestion of the hon. member for Marquette. We realized that there was considerable duplication between, the federal and provincial Departments of Agriculture, and we called a meeting of deputy ministers about two months ago in the city of Ottawa, when the matter was very fully discussed. We have made a certain amount of progress along the line of having the different fields of endeavour more clearly defined.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am very glad to hear it.


Mr. WILSON (Saskatoon):: I was very
much interested in the statement made by the minister, and as to -its educative value I wish to endorse the suggestion of the hon. member (Mr. McKenzie) that the statement should be printed and distributed as widely as possible throughout Canada. There is probably no business in Canada to-day to which the application of science brings greater results than agriculture. It is a case of knowing cause and effect. There has been great care exercised in the production of livestock, and in the selection of animals for breeding purposes, but it is only in recent years that it has been impressed on our farmers that the same care in the selection and improvement of seed brings equally good results. We know what a great benefit to the country the improvement in our wheat seed has been, and in this connection I wish to bring to the minister's attention a matter to which I referred a year ago, and that is the good work 162
that a citizen of Saskatchewan is carrying on in the improvement of wheat seed, and the great benefit it has been to agriculture in this country. This man up to the present has not been recognized by the Government for the work he has done, although I was pleased to see a few days ago that Queens University had conferred a degree upon him in recognition of the work he has done in the breeding of seed. I refer to Mr. S. Wheeler, a man who has brought credit to Canada in the breeding of seed wheat. I understand that at the present time he is working on a new seed wheat which he has developed to quite an extent, and which he names "Bobs." He is endeavouring to produce a seed that will be rust proof. It is about fifteen or sixteen years ago that rust first made its appearance in Western Canada, and since then there has been more or less rust every season. If Mr. Wheeler succeeds in producing a seed that will resist rust, it will mean a saving of millions and millions of dollars to the country. I think the Department of Agriculture .should recognize to some extent the great work this man is doing for agriculture, and should put him at all events beyond the necessity of worrying .about financial matters so far as his experiments are concerned. I thought it proper that I should again bring this matter to the attention of the minister.


William Costello Kennedy: The minister was kind enough to say this afternoon that he would take into serious consideration the question of providing for an increased acreage in the Experimental Farm in South Essex, at Harrow. I think the minister was there recently, and I am sure the people gathered the impression that something wras going to be done. I do not know whether the minister said so, but that is the impression the people have. The amount of $7,000 in the Estimates is very small for the upkeep of a farm in such an excellent agricultural county as Essex, and I trust the minister will see his way clear to be a little more generous in his expenditure there.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I -was not able to get down to Essex county, but the deputy minister was there. The Harrow farm, like nearly all the tobacco farms, shows a profit, so there will be that profit to expend, in addition to the $7,000. So far as the extension of work is concerned, I of course appreciate the situation that exists, and I am anxious to do everything that is .at all possible. The department is anxious to expand the experimental farm system everywhere, but



present financial conditions must be borne in mind.


Mr. KNOX:: May I ask the minister what provision is being made in order to meet the changing conditions that are now arising in the West, where districts which were largely, and in some cases wholly, wheat-producing are now turning their attention to stock raising and dairying? I have in mind particularly the district of Rosthern, where is situated one of the Saskatchewan farms. In this district one man is using the sunflower ensilage about which the Minister of Agriculture has spoken to-day, and I may inform the minister-for I think the fact is of some importance-that the people in that district are of the opinion that it will be wise for the Government farms to lead the way along these lines. I should therefore like to know what steps are being taken to meet the changing conditions.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: In such sections as Rosthern we are establishing dairy herd systems. In that section we are starting this system, and for the farm we have -already purchased some pure-bred Holstein cattle. We shall have a barn built there as soon as possible.


François Jean Pelletier: My hon. friend's answer to my question a few moments ago in regard to demonstration farms is rather indefinite. He -said that he had had many requests from all over Canada. May I ask if he will take my request into serious consideration and see if he cannot do something for my riding?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I promise the hon. gentleman to take his request into serious consideration.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: The minister said a moment ago that certain work would be done at Harrow, and I may be permitted to remark that whether or not experimental farms return a pecuniary profit they are entirely necessary and their establishment is perfectly justifiable. I should think that the last thing we would want to do would be to curtail the expansion of experimental farm work. I do not want any lengthy list, but can the minister inform the committee whether the principal farms !are self-sustaining? The statement has been made that so far as Western Ontario is concerned conditions are, so good that nothing more is required in the way of demonstration farms. Admitting that to be true, yet, in my opinion, a place can never be so good as not to need further development. Farm-	.	.! Lr_j 3 D
ing of every description is carried on in that locality -and I think that demonstration farms should be established there as soon as possible. I should like to know- and I think it is a matter of some interest to the people throughout the country - what percentage of the experimental farms of Canada are self-sustaining and if any revenue which may be derived from them is put back into the farms in the form of further expansion.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I was mistaken when I said that the returns went back into the farms; they are turned into the Receiver-General. The experimental farms on the whole are not profitable. From the nature of the work they carry on it is impossible that they should be profitable. For instance, many of the plots contain only one-fortieth of an acre, and every bit of work done on such a plot is done by hand. After some information of value is secured it is not immediately released. Further experimental work along the particular line is carried on for four or five years, and when we have proved beyond doubt that our information so secured is of real value then we distribute it. The mere seed or grain or roots that may be obtained from any experimental plot of such a size is not of any real profit. The real profit that is derived from such a plot consists in the information that is filed away for dissemination among the farmers of the country.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Quite so.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: From a rough estimate, it is calculated that the potential value of the experimental farm system of Canada is no less than $60,000,000 a year.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am sure that the minister must have overlooked the statement made by the hon. member for Saskatoon. I think that the work of the distinguished scientist to- whom reference has been made was spoken of last year, when there was a good deal of talk about it. We find now that the same scientist is endeavouring to produce wheat which will be rust-proof. I rather think that the minister forgot to make some reference to the observations of the hon. member for Saskatoon, and it would be a pity to let the subject go by unnoticed.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I thank the hon. member for bringing the matter to my attention. I quite recognize the ability of Mr. Seager Wheeler, and his work is just another illustration of what energy, knowledge, and application can do. Other farmers around the

district are, I think, in a position to obtain good results if they will take advantage of the opportunities at hand. Mr. Seager Wheeler is working in co-operation with our Seed Branch and all the information that can be obtained is being made use of. I am glad to receive the suggestion of the hon. member for Saskatoon that the department should recognize what Mr. Wheeler has done, and I can assure him that this matter will receive attention.


Mr. ARGUE:: I cannot let this opportunity pass without making a plea for that part of the country from which I come, namely, the southwestern part of Saskatchewan, which is an arid district. If farming conditions in Ontario are said to be so good that they do not need experimental farms, I can assure the minister that conditions in our part of the country are the reverse and are such as to make the establishment of a farm there imperative. The district around there is 150 miles square and it is settled by as good farmers as can be found anywhere in Canada. Every dollar of our money is staked in the land and we have either to make that land profitable or walk out and leave it. If we had an experimental farm in that part of the country it would be possible, by demonstrating to the farmers the benefits to be . derived from different kinds of tilling, development along various lines, etc., then to make the land pay, and I would ask the Government to make a start this year. I do not ask them to spend a lot of monev but I would request that they make a start on an experimental farm in that district to see if they cannot help the farmers there. I know those men, for I have been with them for the last sixteen years, and I can safely say that no better class of men can be found anywhere in this Dominion., When we went out there in the Victory Loan campaign in 1918 (Swift Current was the first place in Saskatchewan to win the flag. I think it -was a remarkable achievement, and it is but right that such men who have the sand to labour under disadvantages and carry on so well should be helped as much as possible. I trust therefore that the minister will take the matter into earnest consideration and try to make a start there this year.
Progress reported.


SUPREME COURT ACT AMENDMENT.
[Stage Direction]
Rt. Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice) moved the third reading of Bill No. 109 to amend the Supreme Court Act.
Jean-Joseph Denis: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that I was not in the House when this Bill was read a second time. (I only rise to bring to the attention of the minister the fact that according to this Bill the Privy Council will have jurisdiction in some cases in which the Supreme Court of Canada will not have jurisdiction. I had my whole argument prepared for the second reading and I was ready to quote the articles bearing upon the matter but I will not take the time now it would be absolutely useless. But it seems to me to be irrational that in some cases the Privy Council should have a wider jurisdiction than the Supreme Court of Canada. It appears to me that in every case where the Privy Council has jurisdiction the 'Supreme Court of Canada should also have jurisdiction by right and not as a privilege.


Mr. DOHERTY:: Mr. Speaker-


Georges Henri Boivin: I must ask the unanimous consent of the House that the hon. member may have the right to speak because when the right hon. gentleman moved the third reading of the Bill he exhausted his right.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I want to point out to the hon. member that this is under the control of the Provincial Legislatures. It is for the Provincial Legislatures to say what right of appeal there shall be from the ultimate courts of provincial authority to the Privy Council, and we cannot control that. Bn! it is the duty of the Parliament of Canada to determine what shall be the jurisdiction of the (Supreme Court of Canada. If the Provincial Legislatures desire to preserve an appeal to the Privy Council we cannot withdraw the jurisdiction for appeals from their courts direct to the Privy Council.
Motion agreed to and Bill read the third time.
At six o clock the House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at Eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS.


CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READINGS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 95 (from the Senate), for the relief of William George IMackness.-Mr. Fraser.	,
Bill No. 96 (from the Senate), for the relief of (Charles Elias Vardon.-Mr. Hocken.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 97 (from the Senate), for the relief of John Hamilton Harvey.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 98 (from the Senate), for the relief of James Goddard.-Mr. MacNutt.
Bill No. 99 (from the Senate), for the relief of Frederick Stephen Hartmann.-Mr. MacNutt.
Bill No. 1<00 (from the Senate), for the relief of William George McBride.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 101 (from the Senate), for the relief of George Stinson.-iMr. Boys.
Bill No. 102 (from the Senate), for the relief of John James Davis.^Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 106 (from the Senate), for the relief of Arthur Jones.^Mr. Douglas (Strath-cona).
'Bill No. 107 (from the Senate), for the relief of EVa Mary Moss.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 110 (from the Senate), for the relief of Nellie Adeline Wallace.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. Ill (from the Senate), for the relief of Marion Olive Booth.-Mr. Blake.
Bill No. 114 (from the Senate), for the relief of William Edward Vinall.-Mr. MacNutt.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 113 (from the Senate), for the relief of Jessie Elizabeth Hudgin.-Mr. Mowat.
Bill No. 115 (from the Senate), for the relief of Caroline Ewing Gudewill.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 116 (from the Senate), to amend and consolidate the Acts respecting The Western Assurance Company.-Mr. Mowat.
Bill No. 117 (from the Senate), for the relief of Charles Lindsay Keys.-Mr. Cassel-man.
Bill No. 122 (from the Senate), to amend and consolidate the Acts respecting The British America Assurance 'Company.-Mr. Cronyn.	*
Bill No. 125 (from the Senate), for the relief of Irene Martin Chapman.-Mr. Hocken,

Sir HENRY DRAYTON (Minister of Finance) :: Mr. Speaker, I desire, with the assent of the House, to lay on the Table the fourth volume of the report of the Auditor General.



[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply- Minister of Finance-Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
.Experimental farms, $1,200,000.
Mr. CHISHOLM:: Just before recess my hon. friend from North Cape Breton (Mr. 
McKenzie) succeeded in getting an assurance from the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Tolmie) that an illustration farm would be established in Cape Breton Island, and I must express my great satisfaction at the decision of the minister. However, when he sends his officer down there to determine the site of that farm, I would ask him not to forget to have that officer go over the most important part of the Island-from an agricultural standpoint at least-that is, the western part. If the officer is a competent man, as I have no doubt he is, I am satisfied where the site will be.


Mr. SEXSMITH:: During the afternoon
we learned that the department has established a number of demonstration farms at various points throughout the greater part of Canada, but I did not hear any reference made to the district of Central Ontario. There is no agricultural college or agricultural farm between Ottawa and Guelph. The whole of that Central Ontario district is a splendid farming section, and I am sure that all that it is necessary for me to do is to direct the attention of the minister to the need for the establishment of one of these demonstration farms in the county of Peterborough.


Mr. COWAN:: Just before six o'clock the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Argue) had directed the attention of the minister to the need of an experimental farm in that dried-out area, as they call it, in the southwest portion of Saskatchewan and southern Alberta. I wish to emphasize as strongly as I can the need of that experimental farm. It is not a matter of local concern; a national obligation is involved. For this reason: some years ago when Hon. Frank Oliver was Minister of the Interior, the Federal Government attempted to change from a ranching district into a farming district an enormous area in that western country-as largij I should say, as the whole of the settled portion of Ontario. The Federal Department of the Interior threw thousands of farmers into that district, a district which had never been recognized as suited for farming. The result was that thousands of farmers have had to gain experience of the conditions there-conditions entirely different from those to which they had been accustomed. They have not succeeded. The country is a good country. The land is good; it is not an arid but a semi-arid district. They have almost enough rainfall to make farming a success every year, but in the absence of more than "almost enough," they have failed, in many years, all over

that district. The farmers out there are not able to do the experimenting themselves. You cannot expect a lot of pioneers to do the necessary experimenting; they have not the money. I consider it the duty of the Federal Government, therefore, who have drawn hundreds of thousands of people there, to do the experimenting which will supply these people with the information necessary to make farming a success. If a farm is established there it will undoubtedly cost a few thousand dollars, but if you thereby enable these people to carry on their operations successfully; if you can get them to grow the kind of grain which is suited to a semi-arid district-and I understand that can be done-you will make for this country millions of dollars every year. Last year, by reason of the fact that they had not this source of direction and knowledge, Canada lost millions of dollars. Can we reasonably, then, hesitate to make the necessary expenditure? I urge upon the minister that he give the proposal of the hon. member for Swift Current that attention which it deserves.


Mr. BURNHAM:: I would like to add a word or two' to what the member for East Peterborough (Mr. iSexsmith) has just said about the distribution of demonstration farms. It is true that 'the experimental farm at Guelph, for example, has been of the greatest possible benefit to our district,-not the county of Peterborough only, but to the whole district. But Guelph is a long way from Peterborough-it is considerably more than two hundred miles -and while the more energetic farmer goes there sometimes, or the more curious, it is not always possible for farmers to do themselves justice in this respect. The only place where they can obtain the necessary information, therefore, is the Experimental Farm at Ottawa. It is altogether out of reason that experimental farms Should not be more generously distributed than that. Although I am not, like my confrere, a practical farmer, I am nevertheless a theoretical farmer and a very interested farmer. I really take an intense interest in the cultivation of the land,- perhaps by other people. However, I know farmers and farming conditions fairly well, and I am convinced that nothing could be done of greater benefit to the farming community and therefore to the people generally than the placing of demonstration farms-I (would say model farms-in each county. An inspected and superintended farm that is, a farm as it ought to be, with all the equipment of a modern farm for
intensive farming-because intensive farming has to come sooner or later if farming is to be made profitable and we are to hold our own with the rest of the world-such a farm, I say, should in my humble opinion be established, or at least assisted, subsidized if you like, in each county, so that the farmers in the immediate vicinity could profit by them, and those who want to go into agricultural life might have some place close at hand where they could learn how these things should be done. Many men do not know the remedy for evil conditions which arise on their farms. They cannot afford to incur great expense in connection with them, and if there were a centre-not necessarily an expensive centre-close at hand where they might go and learn the condition of agriculture in the county in question would be improved not less than fifty per cent, I am sure, and the production accordingly. The Government cannot pay too much attention to agriculture in this respect. If my position be correct, that it is not unreasonable that there should be a local centre in each county, how really absurd is the condition when, as I say, there is no demonstration farm of any kind within a radius of two hundred miles. I hope, therefore, that the minister will note that we (are practically destitute of an agricultural centre of this kind, and that that need is one which ought to be met.


Mr. PEDLOW:: I wish to say a word on this subject, representing, as I do, one of the largest agricultural and dairying constituencies in the Dominion, and perhaps one of the best. My good friend from the constituency of Beauce (Mr. Beland) may dispute that point-he has done so on several occasions-but he has not visited South Renfrew in recent years. It will be comforting to the minister to know that I am not going to 'press a claim upon him for a model farm, an experimental farm or a demonstration farm for South Renfrew. The majority of the farms in South Renfrew are, I can assure you, Sir, model farms already, so that 'they require very little assistance along that line. The hon. members for East and West Peterborough have my sympathy, nevertheless, and I sincerely trust, in view of the fact that the need is pressing there, the minister will listen to their request and grant it as quickly as possible. I said that I came from one of the largest and best agricultural and dairying constituencies in the Dominion of Canada.


Mr. BELAND:: After Beauce.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I say that advisedly, notwithstanding the objection of my hon. friend (Mr. Beland). That is a habit .of his, but nevertheless the fact remains. I wish to direct the attention of the committee, and particularly of my hon. friend (Mr. Beland), to the fact that in the South Biding of Renfrew we have one of the best-watered agriculture districts in Canada. It is watered fey the river Bonnechere, which rises in Golden lake; we have also in that constituency, you will be pleased to know, in addition to all the other beauties that exist there, the Garden of Eden on one side of the town of Renfrew and the land of Goshen on the other.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Do you make maple sugar there?


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: We make maple sugar of the best quality, a quality that will pass the most rigid inspection of the inspectors of the Health Department. In .addition to a superior brand of maple sugar, seeing that we have such desirable spots there as the Garden of Eden and the land of Goshen, we have a land flowing practioally with milk and honey. The hon. member for Prescott (Mr. Proulx) wants to know if there is any whiskey in the South Riding of Renfrew. I am not an expert in matters of that kind, but I would not be surprised .at all if there is some of that delectable nectar also in that constituency. Speaking personally, while I have not been a farmer in recent years, most of the members in the Chamber at the present time will be surprised to learn that a man who has spent forty-five years in the business of merchandising claims that he is a farmer. The earliest years of my life were spent on a farm. I have done everything on the farm a man, even of my size, could possibly do. I have ploughed and sowed and reaped and mowed; I have done all these things in turn, erven in the old days when the reaping hook was the favoured mowing machine and the spade was the favoured plough. Therefore, I can speak with authority even on matters of that kind.
I have listened with great attention and deep interest to the excellent review of the agricultural situation as given this afternoon by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Tolmie). He made special reference to the development, by those under him in his department, of seeds and stock and farm products generally. Reference was made recently by an eminent scientist in this city -I refer tb Sir Oliver Lodge-to the unique position held by Canada in the production

of wheat. That eminent student, although up in the air sometimes in some of his ideas on life and the hereafter, occasionally takes time to investigate passing events. He had taken notice of the fact that Canada had produced the best wheat in the world, and that wheat was produced by a Canadian, a professor of the experimental farm I refer to the Marquis wheat produced by Prof. Saunders. He referred to a later development in wheat of a still better quality, now, 1 understand, passing under the name of "Bobs," and produced by a man named Seager Wheeler, also a Canadian. I congratulate the department on these developments and the progress made along these lines.
I was interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Crerar), on one point particularly, and I should like to refer to that point again, because I believe it is one worthy of special attention of the Minister of Agriculture, namely, the danger of overlapping. Joking aside, it is all very well for each county to ask for an experimental or model farm and all that sort of thing, but there are limits to the possibilities along that line, and it will be well for the minister to confer with the agricultural departments of the different provinces so that there may be no overlapping. I think the Minister of Agriculture of the Dominion Government should develop the higher part of his work and leave the other departments fo the provinces to deal with, and he should so co-operate with them as to avoid overlapping in the work attempted.
It would be interesting to make a passing reference at least to a few of the points in contrast between farm conditions in this country in the past and farm conditions as these obtain at the present moment. I trust I shall not be trespassing too much on the time of the committee by making just a passing reference to these features, and then I will give some reasons for certain suggestions I purpose making as regards the disbursement of the vote under consideration. Pioneer life in this country, as we all know, was most strenuous. The pioneers arrived here from the Old Country; they were dumped in the forest, and their first efforts would be to build a log house for a place to live in. In those days they were not surrounded by such luxuries as obtain at the present time. They were accustomed to the use of primitive instruments such as the spade, the scythe, the reaping hook, the ox-wagon, with oxen for ploughing

instead of horses. Their stock was not the class that we have to-day, it was scrub stock, and, instead of having modern machinery to separate the milk, that had all to he done by hand. The isolation, too, must have been almost intolerable in those days, almost desperate. An,d yet this hardy race of people made the wilderness blossom as the rose. 'What a difference there is in the surroundings of to-day! In almost every home in rural Ontario1 at least there are telephones; there are a daily rural mail service, motor cars, tractors, and in Western Ontario, electricity, which has developed more largely in the western part of Ontario than it has in the eastern part, but of course improvements will follow there also. The people havS modern machinery for both their homes and their farms. In the olden days, as I have already indicated, there was first the log house and then the clapboard house, but now most modern farms have brick residence with large modem barns, thoroughbred stock and all kinds of labour saving machinery for both the home and the farm.
As to what is being done by the Agricultural Department to assist in the further development of all this, I will refer to just some features that I have gathered from a publication issued by the Ontario Department of Agriculture. I refer to crop bulletin 142, which gives a great deal of general information. In spite of all this improvement, in spite of all the work that is being done by the Department of Agriculture, and in spite of the call back to the farms, that call remains unheeded, as we can easily see by reading the daily press and other reports.
One man from Pembroke, North Kenfrew, writes to the Department of Agriculture, Ontario:
There have been more sales of farms and stock and machinery this spring than in twenty years. Few people now appear to want to work on the farm.
The point I wish to make in that connection is this. The labour problem is one of the most important that confronts the farmers at the present time, and I appeal to the Minister of Agriculture to devote part of this appropriation towards assisting the farmer along these lines and try to improve conditions. Another writes:
This " hack to the land " that is being preached by men that you could not drive back to the land with a dub is all rot. There is no coming back to the land observable; it is all the other way.
Another farmer from Vespra, Simcoe county, writes:
Celibacy and childless marriages are sadly too common. How it all will end time alone can tell. I fear that the foreign element will ultimately dominate our country, and that the Canadians of the future will be of an entirely new cast.	.
That is his opinion why the farmers have difficulty in getting help. I am sorry the bon. member for North Simcoe (Mr. Curriel is not in his seat. I would also like the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) to be here to take notice of that view expressed from Simcoe county.
Another farmer writes from Cornwall, Stormont county:
A number of farms have changed hands recently in this vicinity, mostly to Quebec people, who seem to stick to the soil.
That is another statement that would have been of very great interest, I am sure, to the hon. member from Frontenac, indicating trouble possibly for him to attend to.
There are other problems of the farm besides the labour problem. I think that a large part of the appropriation we are being asked to vote should be used expressly to relieve the labour situation and to give assistance in other directions. For instance large implements which cannot be purchased by individuals and which are great labour-saving devices, should be loaned by the department to farmers throughout the country, because the saving of labour is so very important at the present time. A farmer writes from Oxford, Grenville county:
There is nothing that would increase production so much in this county as drainage. If the Government could be induced to put a ditcher for underdraining into each township and let the farmers pay the running expenses it would be a godsend to this country. We have the tile very convenient.
Here is another suggestion which I think is a very important one. It has been adopted in the Old Country to assist farmers there. I would ask the minister to pay particular attention to this, from Whitby township:
Farmers who have houses for their men have all the assistance they require, but those who do not furnish houses are short of help.
I know from experience in Ireland that they had great difficulty there along the same line in days gone by, but in recent years the Government have given assistance to the farmers in the way of capital to help them build homes for their labour. I think when a farm of moderate size is able to offer the inducement to a married man and his family of a decent home with two or

three acres of land, it is of great benefit to the individual farmer, and ultimately to the whole community. It would help to bring about what we are all preaching from day to day, namely, greater production. This man has a home for his hired help and has no difficulty in obtaining all the help he requires.
The hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Argue) and the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Cowan) have referred to the great need there is of assistance of the department to the farmers of the southern part of Saskatchewan. During last fall I had some experience in that province, in the constituency of Assiniboia. I saw most of the southern part' of the province during my	stay and got quite	a lot
of information about western lands and conditions generally that was of great value to me personally, and has been of great value to some of my friends in the vicinity of Renfrew who are desirous of moving out West. I found that a lot of lands out there were held by speculators. That is a rotten condition, in my opinion, and I think there should be some method of forcing that land on the market. At present the Canadian Pacific and other people are simply holding these lands for speculative purposes, and this has a tendency to keep settlers far apart, that is, there is a great distance between one settler and his next-door neighbour. That means, of course, that the schools are a considerable distance away from many of the farmers. I found, however, some very pleasant surprises in that desert land, and some very nice homes. One home I visited was that of a man who had gone out there from Tweed, Ontario, fourteen years ago and who had taken up a quarter-section of land. Later on, he acquired another quarter-section. Besides this half-section he owns one of the nicest homes I have ever seen anywhere. It was modern in every respect, with hardwood floors, hot water heating, electric light, and so forth. It was one of the greatest surprises I have'evei had. It just shows what thrift and energy on the part of an experienced man from Ontario can do, even in the not auspicious surroundings I found obtaining out there.
I might also refer to the school situation there. I was surprised and pleased to see the provision that had been made for the training and education of youth. It was one of the most pleasant things I observed possibly during my entire trip through that constituency.


Walter Davy Cowan: Does the hon. gentleman think we are a lot of barbarians out there?


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I did not expect to find the people indulge in such extravagance in the matter of schools.


Walter Davy Cowan: Extravagance! Is that the hon. member's idea of education? Education is not extravagance.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: The people evidently intended to provide the best equipment possible in the matter of education for the rising generation. In the town of Estevan, with a population of only 2,500, I saw three large public schools and a high school. I queried the necessity for such extravagance in a matter of that kind, and I was informed that most of the residents in that part of the country came out there young people, and they all had large families, which necessitated extra accommodation in the matter of schools.
Mr. SEXiSMlITH: I would ask the hon. member what large families in southern Saskatchewan have to do with the item before the Chair?


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I only mentioned that incidentally when I branched into this digression from the main subject. But it has this connection with the matter under discussion: I am desirous that the Department of Agriculture should use some of this $1,200,000 to assist the farmers in these isolated places by establishing model farms to show the farmers how to operate their farms to the best advantage and to relieve the labour situation. It must be remembered that farmers come into competition for labour with manufacturing concerns. They also come into competition with the tobacco growers, who offer higher wages than the farmers can afford to offer. If you make conditions favourable for farm help they will not want to indulge in the extravagances of city life, nor will they seek rwhat the Civil Service has to offer. If you assist the farmers along the lines I suggest you wall accomplish much. I find in the bulletin a summary of the situation, and as it is not lengthy I shall read it. It appears under the heading "Labour and Wages.'' This statement reads as follows:
Farm labour conditions were never more acute, even during the latter years of the war. The rates of wages have been steadily mount-ting, and are now regarded as impossible to meet by a number of correspondents. While some farmers are seeking men at any price, others bluntly state that they will have to do with what labour they can muster at home and let the remainder of the work go.

Now, Mr. Chairman, this is undeniably a most serious condition of affairs, and in my judgment is requires the earnest, and more than that the immediate, consideration of the minister. I think it is of greater importance now to provide satisfactory labour than even to undertake the further development of stock or the production of seed. Farmers have an abundance of seed at the present time tout they need help to sow that seed, and, when the proper time comes, to harvest the crop. To continue :
Many also are " seeding down " to conserve labour.
This ds another serious situation in view of the fact that we are anxious to increase ^production.
Several correspondents point out that it is impossible for the average food producing farmer to successfully compete with manufacturers, shopkeepers, lumbermen, owners of lake vessels and even with such special crop raisers as tobacco growers and truck farmers so far as paying wages is concerned. The alluring call of urban life, with its short hours and entertaining scenes, is also referred to by correspondents. Wages for farm labourers vary greatly according to nearness to manufacturing centres and general location, and also the experience and ability of the worker. From $40 to $80 a month with board-and even higher- are quoted for single men for the summer, and from $70 to $100 a month with house, garden, milk, etc., to married men working the year round. From $3 to $4 a day with board is being offered for short-term workers.
These wages will not compete with the wages offered by manufacturers, lumbermen and others who are able to pay higher rates. This condition of affairs, Mr. Chairman, is causing unrest among the farmers, and a great many iarms are being sold in various parts of Ontario. For instance, take the county of Elgin. I find that a farmer, writing to the Department of Agriculture of Ontario, says:
Malahide, Elgin: More farms have been sold in this township during the last six months than for years before, and many of them were sold to persons who were not farmers.
Now, Sir, *this is not improving the situation very much, and if we cannot encourage capable men to take charge of valuable farms the results will be far from gratifying. Another farmer writes from Lanark:
Montague. Lanark: A number of farmers in this township say that they are not going to work fourteen or fifteen hours a day to raise provisions to feed the city man who wants an eight-hour day.
This is just the way that the farmers are thinking. From Plantagenet, South Prescott, the following comes:
We do what we can and let the rest go. Half the farms are left to be managed by men and women past their prime.
, Another farmer from Elgin writes:
Hired help are asking from $600 to $1,000 a year with house, garden, fuel, milk and what eggs they can use.
Just imagine, Mr. Chairnian! "What, eggs they can use," with eggs at present prices. Why, that would mean an enormous addition to the wages asked for. The statement goes on to say:
The farmers are few who can stand that; they might better work for the hired man. The only solution of the problem is pasture more and till less. Many farmers are selling out and moving to town.
Another man writing from Stephen, Huron, says:
Farm labour is scarce. Between $60 and $65 a month is paid to hands and horse kept. Nearly all are leaving for the cities, where they have short hours and high wages.
I will not tire the committee by reading other statements which I have in connection with this matter. The main point I desire to emphasize is that the minister would be well advised if he diverted some of the money which is being voted under this item towards inducing some help to go to the assistance of the farmers who are quite evidently very badly in need of assistance.


Mr.   McIS A AC@: I rise simply for the purpose of expressing my appreciation of the admirable way in Which the Minister of Agriculture has presented the facts regarding his department. Certainly his address this afternoon was a splendid one from every point of view. It contained a great deal of valuable information and I sincerely trust that the suggestion which has been made will be carried out, and that his address will find a wider range of publicity than it will receive by being simply recorded on the pages of Hansard. I hope it will be printed in pamphlet form and distributed throughout the Dominion so that farmers in every part of the country may derive some 'real benefit from the information which it gives in such abundance. I am sure that a careful study of the minister's speech will enable the farmers to employ improved methods in their prosecution of agriculture, and I am inclined to think that the facts contained in it will be a revelation to a very large number-probably the majority-of the farmers of Canada. A perusal of the minister's speech will show them how extensive is the work carried on by the department and what ex-

cellent progress has been made in the development of agriculture. In my province there is an experimental farm, which, so far as I know, is doing good work, and I shall be extremely pleased to hear from the minister some reference to the progress which that farm is making. If it is the hope of the minister to visit the experimental farms in the various provinces I shall be delighted to learn that he will include in his itinerary the Garden of the Gulf and see how things are getting along down there. I do not think I shall trespass upon the time of the House any longer. I might perhaps have been disposed to extend my remarks somewhat farther were it not for the enormous amount of time consumed and the variety of subjects discussed and passed under review by the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Ped-low).


Simon Fraser Tolmie: With regard to the remarks of the hon. member for King's, P. E. I., (Mr. Mclsaac) I am glad to say that the farm at Charlottetown is making satisfactory progress. A good deal of work has been carried on in connection with crop production, poultry and steer feeding experiments. We are increasing our livestock at that farm, we are taking up dairying, hog raising and so on, and the farm is making good progress under present conditions.


John Albert Sexsmith: I have not heard from the minister whether he intends to consider the great central part of Ontario. I am glad to hear of the splendid progress that is being made in the East and also in the West, but it seems he is overlooking the good old province of Ontario. We have in Peterborough, Victoria, Bali-9 p.m. burton, North and South Ontario, Durham, and Hastings counties a district which is not excelled for mixed farming anywhere in Canada. That high-priced calf that the minister spoke of this afternoon in his splendid address was developed in that district. We have developed, I am proud to say, in the county of Peterborough, some of the best dairy and beef herds in Canada. I have been told by the judges sent out from the department to the little agricultural fair that we hold in the village of Norwood in my riding that it is the best agricultural fair between Markham and Sherbrooke, and there is to be seen at it some of the finest dairy and beef cattle to be found anywhere in the country. We have not had any assistance from the department in the way of 
demonstration or experimental farms. I am not thinking for a minute that it is necessary to establish an experimental farm. I would not advocate or support it. Demonstration farms, as my hon. friend from West Peterborough (Mr. Burnham) said, might well be established in every county. I would be inclined to favour that. I do not see any reason why a farm of 100 or 200 acres could not be taken in every county. If an expert were put on such a farm it could be made to pay and pay well. It would be a great object lesson to the farmers in the district. I do not wish to ramble all over the Dominion talking about southern Alberta and the conditions there and all the other parts of Canada, I only wish to impress upon the minister the necessity of giving the central district of Ontario some consideration. I would like to know if it is his intention to do so.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I would like to suggest to the minister that he do not go to the expense of establishing demonstration farms throughout the counties. Why not hire the men who do the farming already?


Jean-Joseph Denis: The hon. member need not be afraid of that.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: Agriculture being the basic industry of this country when anything appertaining to it is under discussion in this House, it should be given full and sympathetic consideration. I am not going to embarrass the minister with an application for an experimental farm.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Do not be bashful.


John Frederick Johnston: I am not bashful. My application has been in for a considerable time and I am very glad it is, in view of the fact that so many hon. gentlemen have made application to him at this time. In his splendid address this afternoon the minister spoke about increased production. I am sure if there is one thing that is engaging the attention of the thoughtful people of this country at the present time it is the matter of increased production. The minister divided the topic under two heads. First, he urged that there should be increased production from the land already under cultivation. I am sure that the minister, the officers under him and the staffs that he has upon his experimental farms, are in a position to lead the way in respect to this matter. The other point about increasing production by bringing under cultivation raw or new lands is a mat-

ter that has to be looked at from a different standpoint. As has been pointed out by the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Ped-low), there is a shortage of help in this country and if we are going to bring new land under cultivation we need more help. I am sure that the minister must know that there is a real shortage of farm help in the country to-day. Before we can consider bringing any large areas of new land under cultivation it would be well to give consideration to the help problem. The minister spoke about the class of immigrants that he would like to see coming into this country in larger numbers. I am sure every member of the committee will agree that the class that he described would be very desirable immigrants if we were able to get them. But the minister did not enlighten the committee as to where he was going to get this class of immigrants. It is all very well to set up standards but in this connection beggars cannot logically at any rate be choosers. When we take into consideration that we are losing a great many of that class of our people who formerly have done the manual labour of this country I think it is well for us to consider just where to draw the line with regard to immigration.


John Hampden Burnham: Does the hon. gentleman mean that he would be in favour of allowing the immigration of cheap labourers into Canada?


John Frederick Johnston: I mean just what I
said; it would be well for the minister and the Government to give this matter serious consideration. The minister also referred to the importance of good seed and good sires There is no man who has had to do with agriculture, either growing grain or raising livestock, but will know that the advice given the committee this afternoon by the minister was good. In the province of Saskatchewan from which I come the only men who are successful in their work upon the land are those who give particular attention to intensive cultivation. To succeed in farming in Saskatchewan one must give every consideration to the cultivation of the soil. After having done this it is well to use the very best seed, and in breeding livestock to use the best sires that are procurable. The minister also mentioned the cultivation of sunflowers as silage feed. I am sure this is an important matter. We have just come through a very trying winter in the western provinces owing to a great shortage of feed, and if the growing of sunflowers will in any way help in the event
of a recurrence of such a shortage it should be given every attention by the department.
I wish to endorse what the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Wilson) said this afternoon respecting the great service rendered this country by Mr. Seager Wheeler, of Rosthern, Saskatchewan. This gentleman has brought honour not only to himself and to the province but to the whole Dominion, having on many occasions won the world's championship for wheat and the coarser grains. As pointed1 out by the hon. member for Saskatoon, the degree of LL.D. was conferred upon Mr. Wheeler a few days ago by Queen's University. I think the least the Department of Agriculture could do would be to put this gentleman in such a position that he would be relieved from the worry of making a living for himself while carrying on his experimental work. He is doing that work off his own bat, so to speak, having received no assistance from the Provincial or the Federal Government, and I think it is time the department recognized the valuable servcies that Mr. Wheeler has rendered this country.


Mr. TOHMIE:: Mr. Chairman, in regard to what the hon. member for East Peterborough (Mr. Sexsmith) said about the absence of an illustration station in his section of Ontario, I am very glad indeed to hear that such excellent cattle are produced there-this is not the first time I have heard of them-and also to know what a very fine quality of farming is carried on there. That is probably one of the reasons why that section has not yet received an illustration station, because no doubt the department has been careful to select those sections where the farming is not so good and illustration stations are more necessary. However, we are now taking up the matter of establishing illustration stations in Ontario, and when we come to a decision the claims of Peterborough will be given very careful consideration.
With respect to the labour situation, it is pretty bad all over this continent. I do not think we are any worse off on our farms than they are in the United States and some other parts of the world. Being one of the results of the war, it is a very difficult condition to regulate. We have established labour bureaus in various parts of the country in co-operation with the provi-incial authorities and those in charge are doing the best they can to supply men. In Western Canada, I think, conditions are a great deal better than in Ontario. This department has been in touch with the Department of Immigration, whose business it is

to take care of these matters, and they assure us that they are making a very strong effort to help out as far as they possibly can.'


Mr. J. F. REID (Mackenzie):: Mr. Chairman, I listened with considerable pleasure to the hon. minister while he was giving us his well-thought out brief. It brought to my mind what I have often heard repeated in the last two or three years,-that we were having too many farmers in Parliament. So far, I think the record of the present Minister of Agriculture will bear out my statement that he, at any rate, is "the right man in the right place."
'He has told us of the progressive improvement of our dairy strains of cattle, which, of course, we are all glad to hear. But I think he forgot to say a word on behalf of the beef strains of cattle,-and judging from the appearence of my hon. friend I believe that he enjoys a juicy beefsteak just as much as I do. But he cannot get that delicacy from the dairy cow; it must come from the beef cattle. In that connection let me add, that I have noticed that sires are provided by the department in settlements in the West where the farmers keep only a few cows. In my opinion,-and I speak as a farmer of some experience,-the quality of the sires is not up to the standard that it should be, and I hope the minister will see to it that that standard shall be reached by the sires which are supplied from time to time. It is a good investment, and when a sire is purchased a few hundred dollars extra should not be considered if an animal of the right quality is secured.
I would like the minister to inform the committee what was the net result of a shipment of two carloads of steers sent from the West to the Experimental Farm here. I met a farmer yesterday who is farming within a short distance of the city, and he told me that at the present time it did not pay to stall beef cattle. So perhaps the minister could give us some valuable information along that line.
I was rather amused when the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Pedlow) told us of his trip out West to the "isolated" constituency of Assiniboia. There can be no doubt that when he left home he had an impression that this constituency was a benighted district, but when he got there and saw that the people could build three public schools and one high school no doubt he came to the conclusion that, after all, they were not so badly "isolated." I do hope that my good friend from South Ren-

frew will again visit the West on some similar occasion and help us out.
I do not wish to press the minister at this time for an experimental or a demonstration farm in my consistuency; I think there have been too many requests of that sort already. I will wait until a more opportune time. I wish the hon. minister every success in his department and I have great hopes that he will contine to be " the right man in the right place."
Mr. 'OAH1ILL: Would the minister advise us what the intention of the Goverment is with regard to the Kapuskasing Experimental Farm?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The land was given to the department. The cost of operation last year, including buildings and clearing, was about $60,000. The buildings are nearly completed now, land we intend to operate the farm as the other farms are operated. We feel that this farm can render a valu-ble service in that clay district where the soil is somewhiat different from that of the other farms in Ontario.


Mr. POWER:: Will the minister tell us something about Spirit Lake, in the province of Quebec? The experimental farm there also was built by German prisoners.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Spirit Lake is another farm that was given to us. The amount spent on it so far is not quite as great as the amount spent on Kapuskasing. We have not erected as many buildings; we have not got as far advanced as we have at Kapuskasing. But it is the intention of the Government to go ahead with the development of that farm, which is in a clay loam district.


Frank S. Cahill: These two farms are on the Transcontinental, in the clay belt in Northern Ontario and Quebec. In the district where the Spirit Lake farm is situated there is a settlement of from fifteen to twenty thousand people. At Spirit Lake considerable farming is under way, it is now a farming territory; but at Kapuskasing not one hundred acres of land are under cultivation, outside of the experimental farm. If my memory serves me well, a report was recently published in the press of a commission which investigated the settlement at Kapuskaisiing, and from it I understand that most of the settlers have left that territory. How much money has been spent in *the Spirit Lake territory?
, Mr. TOLMIE: I am sorry that I cannot give the hon. member the information, but I shall be glad to get it for him.


Frank S. Cahill: Before this item is passed?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I hardly think that the hon. member would want to hold up the item pending the furnishing of this information.


Frank S. Cahill: Well, this item is more important, perhaps, than the minister thinks. There is a settlement in the Spirit Lake territory, in the province of Quebec; every effort is being made to colonize it. The people there are practical farmers; they are not people who have been brought in by .any assistance, they have gone in on their own account; they are clearing the land and cultivating ft and making their homes there without assistance from the Government or from any other source. While settlers ara being carted back from the Ontario end of the Transcontinental, people are going into this other territory by the hundreds. All they want is good railway facilities and the ordinary encouragement that a Government may give. I am anxious to know wdiat money has been spent, at Spirit Lake, because Spirit Lake is much more advantageously situated so far as settlement is concerned than Kapusbasing ever will be, -at least, until there is .a different immigration and colonization policy in Ontario.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: At Spirit Lake we are expending this year $45,000.


Frank S. Cahill: And $60,000 at Ka.puska-sing?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That was last year; it included expenditure on buildings, which will not be necessary this year.
Mr. (CAHILL: Have you in the Estimates for .this year $45,000 to be spent at Spirit Lake?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes.


Frank S. Cahill: And how much at Kapus-kasing?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The amount is $56,000. There is a very much larger area of land to be cleared at Kapuskasing.


Frank S. Cahill: Doeis the minister think that Kapuskasing is the proper place to develop, to .the detriment of the Spirit Lake territory? Does he think it is necessary to have two experimental farms in such close proximity to each other in that northern country? Would it not be better to spend all the money in one farm and have that farm do some good?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I have never visited Kapuskasing, but I am informed that the land is of good quality and that we can look
forward to considerable development there, Spirit Lake i.s also a promising district.


Frank S. Cahill: The minister is correctly informed. There is nothing wrong with the territory; the land is good enough. If the territory were colonized the Transcontinental railway would serve a good purpose. But until the Ontario Government have some system of colonization, or will allow the only class of people who will ever settle that northern country to go in there, it is absolutely foolish for the Dominion Government to be spending money (in ia territory where you are mot going 'to get settlers. And I repeat 'that under the present system of colonization iin Ontario you will not get settlers in that country.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: What has happened since the German prisoners went away? Who has been working the land at Spirit Lake?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We have a superintendent there and a number of men.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: How many men?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: About twenty.


John Hampden Burnham: Before the discussion
of this interesting subject comes to a close I should like to ask a question that seems to me to be quite pertinent. There are at the present time, when these most important Estimates are being considered, less than thirty members in the Chamber. It has been the same every year while I have been in the House; almost without exception the Farmer members pay no attention at all to the Agriculture Estimates. Look at the Farmers' party over there!


Jean-Joseph Denis: How many are there?


John Hampden Burnham: The hon. gentleman
who is the sole occupant of the cross benches at this moment (Mr. Andrews) is a distinguished soldier; I do not know that he is a distinguished farmer. But every other member of the Farmers' party-except the one who has come in just now, at an opportune moment (Mr. Johnston)-is an absentee. That is the interest that the members of the Farmers' party take in the farming affairs of this country. It is not because they have any criticism to make, because one of their members said a few minutes ago that the Minister of Agriculture was the right man in the right place. They have no criticism to make; they have no suggestions to offer; yet they are a Farmers' party.


Mr. OAUVREAU:: That is why they
went out; they have no criticism to make.


John Hampden Burnham: I see that my hon.
friend does not know anything about agriculture. Speaking for that large class of people who are more or less ignorant of agriculture, I think that the farmers in this House might do the Test of the population of this country the honour, if they will not do the farming community the justice, of staying on the scene and giving their best thought and consideration to the Estimates of the Minister of Agriculture when they come year after year. I am glad to see that at this moment the distinguished leader of the Farmers' party (Mr.	Crerar) has come in.
We now have a total of three in the Farmers' party, hut the best part of the Agriculture Estimates and the discussion on them is over. After hearing so much about the labour question, I should like to ask the leader of the Farmers' party what he proposes to do about labour. I asked the hon. member for Last Mountain (Mr. Johnston) if he proposed to admit cheap labour into this country. He, of course promptly fenced the question and returned me a sharp, but not an explanatory answer. I should like, and we should all like to know how this question of labour is going to be solved. Farmers, I understand, rebel against working fourteen hours a day-as they do in summer, but not in winter- whilst people in towns work eight hours or, perhaps, nine hours a day. The conditions are different. The people who have been on the farm do not want to stay there; they want to leave the farm. What we would like to know is, how the farming community and the leader of the Farmers' party propose to remedy the-situation; because we can possibly assist him, and we shall do our best to do so. But is the situation to be remedied by the employment of cheap labour or by simply throwing down the barriers and allowing everything to come in at its cheapest from China and other parts of the world? I know the hon. member (Mr. Cahill) would let anything at all come into this country. He does not care about the farmers of Quebec or the manufacturers; it is cheapness he wants. I believe, however, the leader of the Farmers' party is a different type of man, and I am sure on this matter he would be pleased to give us the benefit of his experience.


John Frederick Johnston: I cannot think the
hon. member was serious in his criticism of members of this group for non-attendance in this chamber. I am sure every hon. member of the House must know that these

benches have been well filled during all the discussion on the Estimates that have been before the committee. He complained because I did not give an answer to his question regarding the class of immigrants to be admitted to this country. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that, the help problem of this country is one for the Government to consider, not for me.


Frank S. Cahill: I should like to ask the
minister again if he would not consider amalgamating those two farms to which I have referred and putting them where they would be useful, instead of spending fifty or sixty thousand dollars at a point where there is no settlement and where there seems to be little possibility of settlement in the near future. It seems that after we start an experiment, we must	continue spending money endlessly	with apparently	no	object
in view. The minister himself states that he has not visited that section of the country and that he knows nothing about the territory, but that it is reported to him as good territory. The territory is all right, but an experimental farm in a section where there is no settlement and where there is another experimental farm a few miles away with a settlement around it seems unnecessary. It would be better to spend the money where you have a settlement than to spend money in a part of the country where you have no hope of settlement in the near future. Unless you are spending money to some advantage, an item of $50.000 is worthy of consideration. The item seems to keep on growing from year to year, and I think the minister would do well to strike out that appropriation of $50,000 this year. If it is necessary to spend it somewhere else, do so, but I would not ask the minister to spend it at Spirit Lake.


Mr. HAY:: How far apart are these two farms?


Frank S. Cahill: 
Frank S. Cahill: Why expend more money there than in other districts where there is settlement?


John Tolmie: Because we have a very much larger plant there, and necessarily there is a call for more money.


Frank S. Cahill: Why put a larger plant there when there is no settlement?


John Tolmie: The plant was there before I was here.


Frank S. Cahill: It was not there before the Government of which my hon. friend is a member was here.


Mr. DUFF:: It's a war baby.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I am informed that it was there before this Government was in power at all.
Branch of Entomology, $18,000.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I should like the minister to\ give some explanation of what entomology is.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It is the study of parasites as affecting agriculture. It is a very important work. It is estimated that these parasites cause a loss every year in Canada of $125,000,000. We have a staff of entomologists who make a study of the life history of these parasites and of the various insecticides that can be used to destroy them, and the securing of cheap insecticides. Some of the big problems they are engaged on at the present time are the grasshopper plague on the prairies, the mosquitoes in the raspberry growing section of British Columbia, and the browntailed moth.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: As I understand the minister's explanation, it sounds like the ward heelers attached to the Union Government.
For the administration and enforcement of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act, $150,000.


Frank S. Cahill: What progress is being made with this?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We are making some progress with the grasshopper plague out in Western Canada. As I pointed out this afternoon, it will require about 2,000 tons of bran, nearly 100,000 pounds of arsenic, and 50,000 gallons of syrup to make a bait to scatter around the grasshopper districts with a view to destroying them. We are also carrying on a mosquito investigation in the Fraser River valley, where the mosquitoes have been so bad as to drive away the pickers in the raspberry and strawberry districts during the harvesting season. We are also working on the pear thrip, a parasite that attacks the pear orchards. On Vancouver Island a harvest of only 700 boxes was obtained from an orchard one year owing to this parasite, but after the entomologists had studied the problem and their recommendations had been carried out 7,000 boxes were obtained the next year. We are also working on the spruce bud moth, and another parasite affecting the bark of the fir trees in British Columbia, and we expect excellent results from these investigations. We are also working on the brown-tailed moth in the Maritime Provinces and at the present time have just about eliminated it. The life history of these parasites has to be carefully studied to enable us to adopt the proper methods to counteract them. We are also studying how to get cheap tree sprays to he used in the large orchard districts of the Niagara 	1
valley, the Annapolis valley and British Columbia. The work the entomologists are doing is a very valuable one.


Mr. BURRELL:: My hon. friend (Mr. Power) raised the question as to what the study of entomology was. Perhaps he would pardon me if I gave him a little illustration of its value, which is pretty well known to anybody who has given any study to the subject. Borne years ago the citrus fruit industry-the orange, lemon and grape fruit industry-of California, which has an output of probably $100,000,000 a year, was threatened by an invasion of the orchards by an insect called the cottony cushion-scale, belonging to an order of insects which live on the sap of trees. No remedy was found for a long time, and it looked as if the whole industry was threatened with extinction. Then several of the best entomologists were put to work on the problem, and after a long time one of the entomological experts travelling in Australia to try and find out where this particular cottony cushion-scale came from, and what particular insect preyed on it, thereby keeping it in check, discovered that it was indigenous to Australia, and that these insects were kept down in numbers by being lived upon as a food by a particular species of beetle belonging to the so-called lady bird family. When this entomologist discovered that this lady bird or lady beetle fed on the cottony cushion-scale, thereby keeping the pest in check and rendering it non-injurious to vegetation, thousands and thousands of these beetles were imported into California, and they went on breeding there until in the course of three or four years they had bred to such an extent that they had practically wiped out the cottony cushion-scale in California, and saved the citrus industry, which represents an investment of untold millions of dollars. I think that is about as good an illustration as can be given of the economic value of entomology in a hundred different lines.
Before taking my seat I should like to pay my personal tribute, as Minister of Agriculture in the past, occupying the position which my hon. friend (Mr. Tolmie) does now, to the work of a very capable entomologist in the service of the Dominion Government, who, I regret to say lately died. I refer to the late Dr. Gordon C. Hewitt, who by his work in this particular branch ,of the service conferred enormous benefits not only upon the department but upon the whole country.

For the development of the dairying industry, and the improvement of transportation, sale and trade in food and other products, $165,000.


Jean-Joseph Denis: I think this is one of the fields in which there is duplication by the Provincial and Federal Governments. To my knowledge, work along this line is being done by the province of Quebec. I should be glad if the minister would let us know what is being done along federal lines.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The Dominion Government's work in this connection consists in the promoting of dairying generally. We also carry on cow testing associations in cooperation with the Provincial Governments. We carry on improvements in the manufacture of butter and cheese through instruction; provide plans for dairy buildings; and make investigations of special problems in dairying. We operate a station at Finch, Ontario, for demonstration purposes. The Dominion Government also carry out the oleomargarine regulations, and cargo inspection at Candian and United Kingdom ports. We have several inspectors overseas who inspect cargoes on their arrival in order to keep us fully informed concerning their condition when they reach the other side, and enable us to provide that the goods may reach the consumer in the best possible shape. We also handle a refrigerator car service for both butter and cheese; we attend to cold storage and pre-cooling of fruit, and carry on fruit storage investigations. We are conducting some interesting investigations this year in connection with the storage of fruit and the shipping of fruit in refrigerator cars, and we expect from these investigations to obtain some very valuable information. We carry out the administration of the Gold Storage Act and the Cold Storage Warehouse Act, as well as the regulations in regard to creameries. We issue monthly a dairy news letter, and weekly a dairy produce market report; and in connection with the proposed new work we intend to take up scientific dairy research, which is something that has not hitherto been done in this country. We also deal with cheese factory and creamery economics. The Provincial Government do a great deal of educational work but there is no real clashing between the two departs ments. We co-operate with the provincial dairy departments wherever it is possible to do so and we render every assistance we can, feeling that Qur objective is the same as that of the provinces.


Jean-Joseph Denis: The minister's statement
would tend to confirm the assertion of the 153
hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Crerar) this afternoon that improvement is possible in the way of avoiding duplication in the work done by the Federal and the Provincial Governments. Item 45 is divided into two parts, the first referring to development of the dairying industry and the second providing for the improvement of transportation, sale and trade in food and other products. I understand that the latter belongs to the Federal Government. But the first part of the item in regard to the development of the dairying industry seems to me to appertain more particularly to the Provincial Governments, and I asked the question which I did because it appeared to me that there was useless duplication in the work accomplished by the Dominion Government on the one hand and the Provincial Governments on the other.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: There is no serious duplication at all.


Jean-Joseph Denis: I am glad to learn that
fact.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What method is employed by the Government to bring to the attention of the individual farmer the information obtained from the dairy records? Is there any special method that enables the department to have that information completely disseminated? I quite appreciate the fact that there are many farmers who are alive to the value of dairy records and cow testing and who seek information because they are interested. But that is the class of farmer who needs information least; he is alive and up-to-date. There is the other man, however, who probably lives alongside the energetic farmer, and it is of him that I am speaking. What is done to buoy him up and to induce him to take a keener interest in the improvement of his own herd?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: 
Hugh Boulton Morphy: How many copies of the Agricultural Gazette would reach individuals in the riding which T have the honour



to represent, lor instance? Is there a list on which the names of persons who might need the Agricultural Gazette or the dairy news letter could he enrolled?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This information is sent
to those people who apply for it. It is an expensive matter to distribute material of this kind indiscriminately throughout the country because in many cases it is only thrown aside. It is not deemed wise to send it to those who do not ask for it. In all cases in which the bulletins are asked for they are sent, because the very fact that there is a demand for them shows that the farmers to whom they are sent are interested. In all such cases we are glad to send all the information we have.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Do I understand that all the names that might be sent in by a member of the House would be put on a list and that those persons would become regular receivers of the Agricultural Gazette?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Not of the Agricultural
Gazette, but of the bulletins. We shall be glad to furnish them with those.'


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Would that include the dairy news letter?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: If they wish it.


Frank S. Cahill: What did the transportation which is included in this item amount to last year?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I may point out to the hon. member that we do not pay any transportation; we simply supervise the transportation of shipments.


Frank S. Cahill: The item is "improvement of transportation." What does that mean?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We are continually seeking methods by which transportation can be improved. For instance, we are carrying on some experiments this year through an arrangement with the railway companies and the fruit men, making a test in regard to the recording of temperatures in refrigerator ears, etc., and we trust that a good deal of valuable information will be secured. 'Shipments are also pre-cooled before they are put into the refrigerator cars, and the temperature is carefully noted. These experiments are being conducted this summer at the request of a large number of fruit men and we expect that beneficial results will be derived from them. In connection with refrigerator car inspection and 
market reporting last year the expenditure was $3,570. This covers refrigerator car inspection at Montreal and Toronto.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: In regard to the establishment of a station at Finch for the improvement of the cheese industry, I should like to know exactly what is being done in this direction.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We have taken hold of two cheese factories at Finch and are operating them as model factories. Any man who wishes to learn anything about the cheese and butter business can go there and see how things are done in an up-to-date way. It has proved of great value to the cheese makers. We are making cheese and butter and shipping milk, and the station has been showing a profit.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Where is the station?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: About fifty miles south between here and Cornwall.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I suppose it is well recognized that in a district such as I have the honour to represent, and in other districts, this country produces a tremendous lot of what we ordinarily call factory cheese. That is a cheese of 75 or 80 pounds. This cheese is practically all shipped out of the country because Canadians do not appear to be a cheese-consuming people. I fancy it is safe to say that from $25,000,000 to $30,000,000 worth'of cheese is exported annually. It is a strange thing that the Canadian public will not eat cheese to anything like what may be deemed a reasonable extent. People eat a little cheese but not much. The British consuming public seem to eat more cheese, especially if they can get a glass of beer with it. In the absence of that trade in this country have the Government ever considered the idea that there must be a tremendous quantity of cheese that is imported from other countries such as Roquefort, Gorgonzola, Edam and other varieties that before the war at any rate were brought in here and sold at from GO cents to 75 cents a pound? I believe that to-day Roquefort will cost $2 a pound. This condition exists while there are a lot of districts in this country with the finest pasturage in the world and cows that stand up equal to those in any other place because the farmers and dairymen have made great strides in developing, through pure-bred sires, valuable herds. Yet there is no incentive apparently given to the people to go in for a finer and smaller package kind of cheese outside of the

factory at Ingersoll. That is
10 p.m. about the only place where they
.	put up some small packages of
pimento and ordinary cheese. On the general argument that the home market in everything else is the best for the farmer, it ought to be the best for the cheese farmer -the man who develops and uses his farm largely for dairy purposes. I throw it out as a suggestion to the minister that if this factory at Finch is only dealing with and putting forward to the people of Ontario the production of what is called cheddar cheese, or some such name, there might be a great opening for the Government to establish at that factory the manufacture of a small cheese of the richer variety which, if this production were extended to the country districts under proper educational facilities, would induce capital among the farming body to be invested on the co-operative plan, to establish factories in the dairy centres which would supply a cheese that the people of Canada would eat and that also would give a better remuneration. I would ask the minister to look into that.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We have been making a
few of the small cheddar cheese at Finch. I shall be very glad indeed to accept the suggestion of the hon. member and look into the matter further.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This item is perhaps one of the most important in the Estimates we have under consideration. I might say with reference to the point raised by the hon. member for North Perth (Mr. Morphy) that we have several varieties of cheese made in Canada other than the Canadian cheddar which is sold in Great Britain. We have the Oka cheese made by the Trap-pist, the Experimental Farm cream cheese, and several other varieties of that kind. I believe the hon. gentleman will find quite a sufficient variety to satisfy his taste in that respect. But apart from that, our cheese industry in Canada is undoubtedly one of the important branches of our agricultural industry. Canada has for many years occupied a pre-eminent place in the British market for her cheese products and the total exports have run from 175,000,000 to 200,000,000 pounds per year. I am confident that we can establish a similar preeminence in respect to our butter output. In building up this industry, however, the question of transportation and particularly of modern refrigeration as applied to transportation is of the highest importance. I think that any money that is expended in 1534
the way of improved transporation facilities and in the way of finding out the best methods of refrigeration and of handling these commodities will certainly be money well spent. We should not overlook the fact that our position in Canada is a very favourable one in respect to the world's markets. We have heard from the minister already about the position which our cheese occupies in the British market. There is no reason why our butter should not occupy an equally favourable position. We have in addition to that a vast and growing market immediately to the south which is bound in the years to come to lake large quantities of our dairy products. The fact is sometimes overlooked that more than half of the population of the United States lies east of a line drawn north and south through Chicago. By far the most densely populated portion of the United States, within twelve or fifteen hours by train from one of the finest agricultural parts of this Dominion, namely the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. If we have vision to look into the future we have a splendid prospect ahead of us in respect to the development of our dairy industry. I say again that any assistance we can give in the direction of perfecting the methods of transportation and particularly the development of proper cold storage facilities, so that these commodities that- are of a perishable character can be brought to the markets in the best condition, will' be money well spent. It is now generally recognized particularly with respect to food products of this class, that quality is of the highest consideration and if we can make cheese and butter of the highest quality and can get proper facilities for taking them to the markets of the world in the best possible shape, the dairy farmers of Eastern Canada particularly-because they are more favourably situated in that regard than the dairy farmers of the rest of Canada- can find a ready and profitable market for everything they can produce.	.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Has the minister considered adopting a policy whereby fertilizers can be obtained at or as near cost as possible by those engaged in the dairying and other branches of agricultural industry?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We fully realize the value of getting fertilizers to the farmers at the very lowest possible cost, but, as the hon. gentleman will understand, railway rates are very high and concessions are very difficult to get.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is because railway rates are so high that I aim anxious to know if the Government has any policy on this matter. It is one of the most important considerations, I imagine, in connection with agriculture that fertilizers should be obtainable by our farmers at the minimum cost; and it seems to me that because we have these high transportation charges the Government ought to formulate o poliev to deal with the matter.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I am glad the hon. gentleman has brought this matter to my attention. I will look into it further.


Auguste Théophile Léger: What instructions are the government milk testers given in regard' to their duties and their districts?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: These cow testers are directly under the; control of the Provincial Governments as to their [particular districts, but we have certain men who go out among the farmers and interest them in the advantages of cow testing. These tests are of great value to the dairyman, because it is the only method iby which he can tell the best cows in his herd, the Teal test, of course, being the Ibutter-fat content rather than fine looks, and he is thus enabled to eliminate his poor cows. The men we send out arrange with the cheesemaker or butter-maker, as the case may be, connected with the local creamery to test the milk, and we pay the tester.


Auguste Théophile Léger: Is it his duty to test oniy the milk of the patrons of the factory, or is he instructed to test any cow in the district?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: He is instructed to test any cow throughout the district.


Auguste Théophile Léger: I have personal knowledge of one case where a farmer, not a patron of the local butter factory, sent his milk to be tested, but a month or two afterwards the testing officer said that he would not test the milk of any farmers outside the patrons of the factory. That is the reason for my 'question.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: If the hon. member will be good enough to bring the case to the attention of the department, we will be very glad to get a report on it and take any action that may be necessary.


Mr. MANION:: I do not wish to delay tha Estimates for more than a minute or two. but I was rather interested in the remarks of the hon. member for North Perth (Mr. Morphy) and the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Crerar) regarding cheese. I

know very little about cheesemaking, but for some years I have been more or less of an epicure in regard to cheese, and I w.as struck by the remarks of the hon. member for North Perth when he drew the attention of the committee to our cheese production. I think those remarks are well worthy of careful consideration by the minister, who has given us such a very excellent report this afternoon and has shown such a high quality of management in his department. A short time ago the hon. member for Fron-tenac (Mr. Edwards) told us that the province of Quebec had the finest record in this country for the quality of its butter, and I think I would be quite safe in saying that the province has an equally fine record both as to the quality and variety of its cheese production, and I was a little surprised that some hon. member from that province did not rise to confirm that statement.
The point I wish to make is that we are to-day producing, especially in the province of Quebec, cheese which is quite equal-and I think I am a fair judge as an eater of cheese-to any of the imported European varieties, such as Roquefort and iGamem-bert. The only trouble is that our fine varieties, such as the Oka, the Trappist and the Beloeil are not made in large quantities, in fact, we cannot begin to supply the demand. The cheese from Beloeil is made by two or three farmers there, it has a most delicious flavour, but so far as I know it has never reached the markets beyond Ottawa. I have purchased it many times in this city, and have taken it to my home a thousand miles west, and every one who has tasted it has passed the most complimentary remarks regarding its quality and flavour.
I think it would be well for the minister and his deputy to consider the advisability of encouraging the making of this delicious cheese which the province of Quebec excels in producing. In the European markets when any one is buying cheese he considers our ordinary Canadian cheese of very superior quality-and we know it has a high food value-but in addition a very well-known cheese is sold as "old" Canadian cheese, and that cheese when properly cured is, to my mind, almost equal to any Roquefort we import. Therefore, I think the production of old Canadian Cheese-which I presume is simply our ordinary cheese aged for a certain time-of Oka, of Trappist and of Beloeil cheese, should be heartily encouraged by the minister and his depart-

rnent, for the reason that those varieties might well take the place to a certain extent of the expensive cheeses imported from Europe. I merely wish to offer that suggestion by way of supplementing the remarks of the hon. member for Perth and the hon. member for Marquette.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I thank the minister for his kindness in promising to look further into the question of the transportation of fertilizers. In that connection may I say one word as representing one of the Prince Edward Island constituencies? As the minister is aware, the products of Prince Edward Island are almost exclusively agricultural, and in the province are found very rich deposits of mussel mud which is excellent as a fertilizer, but owing to the high cost of transportation those deposits are very little used. If this form of fertilizer were extensively used the agricultural products of the Island would be very considerably increased, and I would be pleased if the minister would make a point of paying particular attention to the needs of the Island in that regard. That is only one instance. I think the question of supplying fertilizers to farmers at the lowest possible transportation cost is one that might well constitute a policy which the Government should take up for the entire Dominion.


Jean-Joseph Denis: A year or two ago I communicated with the Government railways in an effort to secure a reduction in the freight rate on fertilizer that is being used in the district of Joliette in connection with the growing of tobacco. Generally speaking, i't seems to me, i't should fee the policy of the Government to make effective a general reduction of freight rates on fertilizers all over the country. The more production there is on the farm the more freight there will be for the railways; for each carload of fertilizer that the railways transport, they will receive two or three, sometimes more, carloads of agricultural product^. It has been said time and again *that railroads have been duplicated in Canada; that we have three transcontinental railroads when we should have not more than two, and so on. There is a great deal of truth in all that, and the only possible way for us to make these railroads pay is to feed them. We feed them by bringing about more agricultural production. This is a very important question for the Government to consider. If the freight rates on fertilizers were generally reduced, the result would be a benefit to the farmer,
a benefit to the railroads themselves, and a benefit to the country.
Towards the encouragement of cold storage warehouses for the better preservation and handling of perishable food products, $25,000.


Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR (Guysborough):: Some weeks ago a delegation came here from Nova Scotia, consisting of the Provincial Secretary of Agriculture and some of his officers, to pres^ npon the Government the importance of providing cold storage facilities for export shipments of agricultural products from the Maritime Provinces. Will the minister say if the matter has been considered, and if so what decision has been reached?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: At that time a committee was formed to act with the minister in looking into -this matter. We have been investigating the matter through ouir livestock branch with ia view Ito ascertaining just what supply of cattle there would be for such a plant in the Maritime Provinces. It would be necessary of course, for us to have a sufficient supply of cattle before a plant could be built and conducted at a profit, particularly with an abattoir. The report which I have from the Livestock Commissioner does not indicate that sufficient cattle would be available just now to keep such a plant going. But we are developing to the very best of our ability a co-operative selling plant whereby farmers are encouraged to form co-operative selling associations so that their cattle can be shipped in carload lobs, both to Montreal and down into the markets to the South. We hope that by following that policy for a while the supply of livestock in my hon. friend's section of the country will be so increased that it will be sufficient to maintain an abattoir. We have also taken the matter up with the Canadian National Railways and they have the whole subject under consideration. I assure the hon. member that we shall do all we possibly can to get such a plant established. It is a necessity for the farmers in his district, because at present they are very much at the mercy of the buyers. It is the same old story of the Western Canada cattle ranches; you have to Sell your cattle in the fall when they are fat, whereas if you had cold istorage 'facilities you would he able to put your beef in 'there and keep it until you could get a satisfactory price.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A year ago, if I remember correctly, an appropriation was asked for the erection of a cold storage warehouse in

Montreal. Can itlhe minister say what progress has been made, if any?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That plant is under construction, under the direction of the Harbour Commission.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Would the minister give us some general idea of the purpose of this vote?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: 
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: 
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I think that the Minister of Marine, in his usual way of getting things shoved off on somebody else, told me the other night that he had nothing to do with cold storage establishments; that they come under the Department of Agriculture. Now that both the Minister of Marine and the Minister of Agriculture are here, I wish to state that I want to get a cold storage plant for bait down in Cape Breton; which of the hon. gentlemen it comes from does not make the slightest difference. The people of that part of the country are suffering very much from want of cold storage for bait. I want to make a serious statement to the minister. In the spring of the year large quantities of small fish travel round the coast. They are not much good for food, but they make splendid bait. But the fishermen have no place to put that bait where it can be preserved; the consequence is that when the. schools of fish go by, that supply of bait disappears. Then in the fall, in September, October and on until Christmas, there is splendid cod fishing along the shores, but the difficulty is that the fishermen have no bait. The proper policy would be to have cold storage plants at certain convenient points along the shore to store the bait, and sell it. The fishermen do not want this bait for nothing; they are willing to pay for it, but they are not wealthy enough to have cold storage facilities themselves. If cold storage plants were supplied with compet-
[M, Crerar.]
ent officers in charge of them and enough was charged for the bait to cover the running expenses, that would be satisfactory. In Newfoundland, I understand, they have not only cold storage warehouses, but steamers supplying the fishermen at different points with bait out of cold storage at certain seasons of the year when they could not get it otherwise. Although we .perhaps could not put a boat on the service as is done in Newfoundland, at different points, not only Cape Breton, but all along the coast from Yarmouth to Cape North, there is great necessity for facilities of this kind. I, therefore, urge, not only upon the minister, but upon the Government generally, the great necessity for providing the facilities for which I am asking. At this season of the year millions of pounds of that bait could be caught and conserved; but when there is no way of preserving it, the opportunity is lost; and when great profits could be made by fishermen, you find the fishermen sitting on the shore on a beautiful fishing day with the fish in millions around them, but unable to catch the fish because they have no bait. This is the actual condition of things, and I am not exaggerating. When I appealed to the department before, I was told that there was a certain company at Canso which had some bait stored away, tout the company said: Our bait is for ourselves; the storage is our own, and we are not going to give our bait to others. The result was that the fishermen had to go without it. Possibly with some exertion those fishermen might manage to get a place for themselves, but that would take a considerable amount of money, more than the fishermen have.
Mr. TOLMIE,:	This department has no
control over any of those bait cold storage plants. I presume if some of the bait was shipped to any of the plants in which we are interested, it would be accepted for storage. I realize the importance of what the hon. member says as regards having a supply of bait on hand, and I shall be glad to look further into the matter. I have not very full information at present beyond what the hon. member has given me.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Is it the Government's policy to grant these subsidies only to warehouses that are erected under the control of some municipal or other public body, or are subsidies granted sometimes to private individuals?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: At the present time, only to municipalities. The subsidies were cancelled about the beginning of the war, and

I understand no subsidies have been given since.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Does the minister think that is the wisest course to [DOT]pursue? Is it not advantageous to encourage these cold storage places to as large an extent as possible?
Mr. TO'LMIE: It may 'be possible to look into this matter again with a view to taking up the subsidizing of cold storage warehouses in the near future, but up to the present I have not had an opportunity of going fully into that aspect of the case.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have had
some correspondence with the minister as regards a cold storage warehouse at Ellers-lie, P.E.I. If the minister is looking further into the matter, I should be deeply obliged if he would give some consideration to the people of that particular part of the island. In that connection, there is one representation which I should like to bring to the minister's attention from some of the residents of Ellerslie. They point out, in connection with the cold storage warehouse there, that the company have space not only for storing what is necessary for the public needs, but for storing what is necessary for food for the fox industry. The company seem to be under the impression that because they were supplying space for food for the fox industry, they were thereby losing the opportunity of getting the Government subsidy which would go only to concerns that were supplying public needs generally. The company contend that they are endeavouring to meet those needs, and as regards the fox industry they make an interesting representation which I think is important. This is a letter I have received from two electors in Ellerslie:
We think the fox industry should have some recognition from the Federal Government, because we believe the Government will receive more income tax from the profits of fox farming than from any other source in this province, and without some means of preserving the food, this industry cannot advance as it otherwise would. If the authorities would reconsider this matter I know they would find out the advantage it would he to the Government to encourage the fur farming industry, which they would he doing, as well as giving valuable assistance to the farmers of this and the surrounding sections by giving a reasonable grant to assist the above-named organization in the erection of their chemical freezing plant.
That seems to be a practical, although a somewhat novel suggestion. The minister will realize that an industry such as the fox industry lias become in Prince Edward Island is one that it would be well
for the Government to help even in this indirect method.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Is it fish bait they feed the foxes or what?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall have to ask the Minister of Agriculture to answer that question as I am not an expert on the fox industry.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I have listened with a great deal of interest to what the hon. member has said regarding the storing of food for foxes, and this is a matter that might perhaps be looked into a little further. We have not neglected the fox industry altogether. We now have an expert in Prince Edward Island making a very careful study of fox diseases, that work being carried on under the Health of Animals Branch. Another department of the Government is looking into the nutrition of foxes. Fox food down there consists very largely of old horses and meat of that kind, any cheap meat the people can get hold of. I just wish to point out that we have not neglected the industry; we are taking a keen interest in it, and we are anxious indeed to assist any of these young industries that are trying to get a footing and that show prospects of succeeding.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: On further reflection, I remember visiting some of the fox ranches, and one of the things that came forcibly to my notice was the quality of the food these little animals were getting. I was told that to get the better classes of furs, they sometimes feed the foxes with the very best class of meat. If that be the case, if the minister can help along the storage of the food that is necessary, he will be furthering an industry that is already one of the most important, certainly on the Island, if not in the Dominion, and one that may become of increasing importance in the -whole Dominion.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Personally, I have not a great deal of use for subsidies of any kind, and I think the subsidising of private cold storage plants in this country can now very well be discontinued. As the minister has stated, we have given in assistance in this direction something like $700,000. In many cases the result was that the government of the country contributed 30 or 33 per cent of the cost of erecting a cold storage plant, and after the subsidy was earned, the cold storage plant was used entirely for the convenience of the company that promoted and built it, and the benefits to the general public were very slight. There are

in this country cases where private cold storage companies operating in perishable commodities have been able, through the control of cold storage, to exercise a very considerable influence on the price at which they sold their commodities. Cold storage is a thing that might very well be municipally developed, and in cases where a cold storage plant is erected in this way and any merchant or dealer can secure his allotment of space, I think the department might very well be warranted in giving assistance; but the giving of assistance for the development of cold storage plants for private companies, who, after they have earned the subsidy utilize the storage entirely for their own benefit, is a different matter, and I do not think the count ry would be warranted in expending more money in that direction.
The fox industry in Prince Edward Island is a growing industry, and I have no doubt a very profitable one in view of the rising price of fum If I might offer a suggestion to the leader of the Opposition CMr. Mackenzie King) it would be this, that the fox farmers might very well practise and apply the principles of co-operation in respect to supplying themselves with the necessary storage facilities and that sort of thing for the carrying on of their industry, which the farmers of Western Canada have successfully practised in respect to the selling of grain. Self-help is the best kind of help, and if a group of farmers engaged in the fur-producing industry can get together and provide the facilities that are necessary to them in common for the carrying on of the industry, it is infinitely better for them and infinitely better for the country, than if that is done through government assistance. In the development of sound co-operative enterprise in my judgment is 'found the safest'road for the development of an industry, as well as the development of self-reliance and confidence on the part of those engaged in it.
Fruit Branch, $140,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Perhaps the minister
would give us an explanation of the increase in this item.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The increase is due largely to increased cost of transportation for employees, and partly to the facilities that I have already referred to regarding cold storage and the shipment of fruit under cold storage conditions.
Health of animals, $500,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Some time ago I was making inquiry about the shipment of cattle from the port of North Sydney to Newfoundland and other points. We have no veterinary inspector at North Sydney, and I understand that before these cattle are permitted to be put on board ship, they must be inspected. There is a veterinary at Sydney, a very competent man, but Sydney is seventeen miles away from us by land and five miles by water. The port of North Sydney is open very much later in the year than Sydney, and open earlier in the spring; so boats come round to North Sydney for loads of cattle. At present the inspector has to come seventeen miles from Sydney to do the inspecting, and that has been found very inconvenient. I do not want to interfere in any way with Dr. Thurston's employment or his salary. iHe is a returned soldier and a deserving man in every sense, but I think he has enough to do in the great city of Sydney and the town of Glace Bay and other places where he works for the Government, and as we have a veterinary in the town of North Sydney I think it would be better if a man who was right pn the spot, and who could immediately inspect these cattle, was appointed. It is very inconvenient to have to wait for this inspection, sometimes the steamers are held up, and at other times they will not wait. I have been trying to get this difficulty remedied for some time by having an inspector located at the port of North Sydney.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I am glad my hon. friend has brought that to my attention. I understand, however, that the shipments from there are very small, and that it would hardly pay to maintain a man on a salary at that point, but we might look into the advisability of having a local man do what inspecting is required and pay him by fees. I will make a note of it and see what can be done.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The shipments are not so very small. The Railway Department, after a good deal of fighting, have put up very large sheds and provided proper accommodation for the protection of these cattle. I would like to see the man who does this work paid properly, and I am sure it would not cost so very much. I am not asking that he be given a fixed salary, but it could be so arranged that he would be paid for every shipment he examined. The. veterinary in North Sydney, Mr. George Coleman, would be able to do this work very well, if the minister would make an arrangement with him. I am speaking

more in the interest of the trade than in the interest of any individual who might be appointed, but I should be very glad to see this young doctor appointed as inspector there. He is a college graduate and he could do the work very well. I am sure the minister could make an arrangement with him that would not be very expensive and that would facilitate shipments very much.
For the administration and enforcement of the Meat and Canned Foods Act, $520,000.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Why is this not under
the Department of Health? I see on the next page, by item No. 61, that the administration of the Act regarding fertilizers, is under the Department of Health. I think these two items should be transposed.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We are expecting to take
over the administration of the Act respecting fertilizers at a very early date. With regard to the inspection of meat and canned foods, these are products of the farm. The meats are slaughtered in abattoirs under the inspection of veterinarians by the Health of Animals Branch. This is one of the branches of the Agricultural Department. I think it is quite proper that the inspection should be under the Department of Agriculture, because in the first place we are dealing with agricultural products, and secondly, the work is carried out by a profession that is very closely allied with agricultural matters.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: What is the explanation of the increase in this item?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: It is explained by the increasing volume of business, and by the fact that we have had to engage more men to carry on this work.


Jean-Joseph Denis: I notice by the Auditor General's Report that the amount spent on this work last year was $360,836.49. An increase to $520,000 appears to me very large.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I think my hon. friend is giving the figures for the year before last.


Jean-Joseph Denis: That is correct. Is the Government receiving any return from the enforcement of this Act, or is it all expenditure and no revenue?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: In carrying on the inspection of these meats we are rendering service to the whole public. We have to meet competition from the United States and the Argentine in the markets of Great Britain. In the United States this inspection is paid for by the Government. In our packing houses the packers pay for the overtime. If
they keep an inspector for three or four horns or oblige him to work on a holiday, they pay the extra charge. When this matter was under discussion a little while ago, we came to the conclusion, after an investigation, that it would not be judicious to place the packers in this country at a disadvantage in competing with the United States, the Argentine and Great Britain.
International Institute of Agriculture, to assist in maintenance thereof and to provide for representation thereat, $10,000.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Will the minister explain this item?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This is our contribution to the International Institute of Agriculture at Rome. This institute has its headquarters at Rome, and its object is to gather information in regard to agriculture from various parts of the world. By subscribing to it we aTe able to keep in close touch with the world's agriculture and to apply the information which we receive in that way toi the benefit of the farmers in this country.
Mr. MiORPHY: Who is in charge of that institute?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Mr. Doherty is the Canadian representative.
For the development of the livestock industry. $900,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think it is understood that the minister would allow two or three items to remain over for discussion on a subsequent occasion. There are only a couple of items of his Estimates left now and I think he might let them stand.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: If we let one stand it would serve your purpose.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think my hon. friend had Ibetter hold this one; it is one of the largest.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Very well.
To enforce the Seed Act, to test seed for farmers and seed merchants, to encourage the production and use of superior seeds and to encourage the production of farm and garden crops, $225,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is an increase of $25,000 here; perhaps the minister would explain the reason.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: We have opened a new
seed laboratory in Winnipeg, and there are also increased expenses that are affecting all departments this year. This is perhaps one of the most important branches in the whole department. I think I explained

this afternoon that it handled seed during the war through what is known as the Seed Commission created to meet the situation during the war period. It handled over $12,000,000 worth of business, showing a small profit on running expenses.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is an item on page 8 which has to do with the Agricultural Department-item 15-and which I think we might dispose of to-night.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That item relates to civil government. We have not yet had the details in regard to civil government, and I might take advantage of this opportunity to point out to hon. gentlemen opposite that we expect to get detailed information in regard to the Civil Service classification before going on with civil government Estimates.


Charles Joseph Doherty: We hope to be in a
position to furnish that information soon.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I think we had better
take up resolution 139 on page 38: Experimental Farms-New buildings and improvements, renewals and repairs, etc., in connection with existing buildings, fittings,
etc	$200,000	00
Flags for Dominion public buildings	 5,00000
Dominion public buildings-Generally	   30,000	00
Royal Canadian Mounted Police
buildings	 50*0,000	00


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This resolution is divided into four items. I think it had better stand; it has reference to the Royal Mounted Police.


Frank S. Cahill: What are the buildings
referred to here?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: As the item says, it is for new buildings, improvements, renewals and repairs to old buildings on all farms.


Frank S. Cahill: Have you the totals for
the different farms?


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Yes. They are: Central
Farm, $53,235; Charlottetown, $6,450; Kent-ville, $8,600; Nappan, $6,500; Fredericton, $5,500; St. Anne de la Pocatiere, $8,750; Cap Rouge, $15,250; Lennoxville, $9,200; Morden, $9,150; Brandon, $12,900; Indian Head, $3,700; Rosthern, $5,600; Scott, $5,100; Lethbridge, $16,065; Lacombe, $5,400; Summerland, $17,150; Invermere, $1,950; Agassiz, $3,200; and Sydney, $6,300. First item agreed to, resolution stands. Resolutions reported.
On the motion of Rt. Hon. Mr. Doherty the House adjourned at 11.45 p.m.
Monday, May 17, 1920.