1920-03-19

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Mr. W. F. COCKSHUTT (Brantford) presented the first report of the Select Standing Committee on Banking and Commerce.

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"Sir HENRY DRAYTON (Minister of Finance) gave notice that on Monday next he would move the House into Committee of the Whole to consider a resolution standing on the Order Paper to amend the Ottawa Mint Act by providing that the yearly payment for defraying the salaries, contingencies, retiring and other allowances and expenses connected with the maintenance of the Ottawa Branch of the Royal Mint and the refinery forming part thereof, be increased from one hundred and ten thousand dollars to two hundred thousand dollars.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. A. ROBB (Chateauguay-Hunting-don):: I desire to draw the attention of the Minister of Railways to a matter of urgent public importance. I hold in my hand a letter from a grain shipping firm in Winnipeg dated March 13, wherein there is a statement made to which I would like to know if it is a fact that there has been no coarse grain shipped out of Fort William for domestic purposes since January 5.


Hon. J. D. REID (Minister of Railways):: The hon. gentleman very kindly advised me that he intended to bring this matter before the House to-day and thus gave me the opportunity of getting information with respect to it. As I was coming into the House I received a letter addressed to Major Bell, deputy minister, and having instructed him to get infofmation on this subject, I take it for granted that it contains that information. I shall be glad to read the letter in order that it may go on Hansard. It is from the Chief Commissioner of the Board of Railway Commissioners, and reads as follows:
Ottawa March 19, 1920.
Dear Major Bell,-In reply to yours of yesterday re the shipment of oats from the" head of the lakes. I beg- to state that the whole story of what the hoard has done since the close of navigation would be a rather lengthy one.
Early in the season we attempted to regulate loadings out of elevators in an equitable manner to all parties concerned, and, on the 26th of December, we reoeived a telegram from Mr. Stewart, Chairman of the Wheat Board, copy of which is as follows:

	-
"The Canadian Pacific Railway Company through Mr. Grant Hall have assured us an all rail movement of grain from Fort William east of a minimum of one hundred and twenty-five cars per day. We would like this apportioned as follows, twenty cars for coarse grains domestic and export, forty ears for domestic wheat, sixty-five cars for export wheat to Atlantic seaboard ports including Portland and St. John. Canadian National road through Mr. Hays have assured us of minimum movement of fifty cars per day which we would like apportioned as follows, fifteen cars for ' coarse grains domestic and export, ten cars for domestic wheat, twenty-five cars for export wheat to Atlantic seaboard ports including Portland and Halifax. Undoubtedly roads can improve this movement and haul more, domestic wheat and export and domestic coarse grains than the total of eighty-five cars per day and until further advised we would like these interests benefit to the full extent of the increased movement but the sixty-five cars on Canadian Pacific and twenty-five cars on Canadian National for export wheat are irreducible daily average minimums and should take precedence over other grains. Will you be kind enough to confirm this to the railway companies accordingly."
Some discussion took place with the railways and with Mr. Stewart about issuing an order, but all parties agreed that, in so far as it was possible, 175 cars per day would be shipped out. The Wheat Board asked for a priority order for the 85 cars per day for export wheat. ThiB we declined to grant until satisfactory evidence was furnished as to dates of sailings, tonnage, etc., and, as this data has never been furnished the board, we have, therefore, refused to give a priority order; but there was a general understanding, as we understood it, between the railways, the Wheat Board, the Lake Shippers' Association, and ourselves that the percentage of different grains, both export and domestic, as set forth in Mr. Stewart's telegram would be adhered to as closely as possible. Unfortunately, the weather conditions during January and February made it impossible for the railways to furnish 175 cars per day for this particular movement, and it very soon became apparent that some interests would not ibe able to receive the amount of grain required.
In the course of a few weeks, this board became convinced that course grains were not receiving their due percentage of shipments, and, therefore, in order to see that our intentions were carried into effect, on the 30th day of January last, this board issued an order the operating portion of which is as follows:-
"That on Monday, the 2nd day of February, 1920, and- on each succeeding Monday until otherwise ordered by the board, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company provide at least one hundred and twenty-five (125) cars and the Canadian National railways at least fifty (50) cars at the elevators at Fort William and Port Arthur, in the Province of Ontario, for the receipt, handling, and carriage of grain, other than wheat, also flaxseed, for domestic use in Canada; the said cars to be allocated in proportion to the cars ordered for which the necessary documents have been surrendered."
During the next three Mondays, including February the 16th, 545 cars of domestic coarse grains, mostly oats, were shipped out, and, on

account of severe weather conditions, we .then concluded that coarse grains were receiving more than their fair percentage, the result being that, on the 19th of February, this order was 'suspended. Since that date up to the 13th. instant, 211 cars of domestic coarse grains have 'been shipped, more than 90% of which would be oats. In addition to the above statement, according to information furnished us by the Lake Shippers' Association on the 16th instant, for the fortnight ending March 13, 420 cars of coarse grain have -been shipped from western points direct to the east. During the same period, the Lake Shippers' Association inform us that a total of 153 cars of domestic grains of all kinds have been furnished the local mills, and 819 cars of export wheat.
This board receives daily from the Lake Shippers' Association, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and the Canadian National Railway Company statements of the number of cars loaded and handled, and at the present time we are subdividing the coarse grains under different headings, so that we are in a position -to know exactly how much of each kind of grain is moving out daily, and, early in this present week, we came to the conclusion that coarse grains were not receiving their fair proportion. Telegraphic correspondence was entered into with the Lake Shippers' Association on Monday, and, after the exchange of a number of telegrams, yesterday morning the following order was issued by wire:-*
"Your telegram yesterday received re coarse grain movement from head of lakes. This board requires that beginning to-morrow and until further orders twenty per cent of all cars loaded from all elevators at head of lakes be assigned to coarse grains for domestic consumption which is practically the percentage set forth in Mr. Stewart's telegram to me of December twenty-sixth last. Please confirm."
Yesterday afternoon confirmation was received as follows:-
"Your wire that twenty per cent on all cars from all elevators at head of lakes be assigned to coarse grains for domestic consumption until further orders is received and instructions have been given accordingly to our Fort William office."
If the daily returns require a change in these directions, the board will not hesitate to take whatever action may be necessary.
I think, however, I should point out to you the very serious conditions under which grain has been handled during the past two months, and I am satisfied that the railway companies have handled every car which it was humanly possible to get over their roads. Their first great difficulty has been weather conditions, not only around the head of the lakes but at the terminals, where hundreds of cars have been frozen in from Halifax to Portland, Me., and probably never in the history of railroading in this country have as many cars been held up at ocean terminals owing to weather conditions as have been in that condition since the first day of February. Added to this have been the most abnormal weather conditions from the operating standpoint, but probably even beyond both these difficulties has been the shortage of cars, due very largely to the fact that there are about 20,000 more Canadian cars on American lines than there are American cars on Canadian lines, and without cars it is impossible to handle freight.
I again wish to emphasize the splendid manner in which the railway companies have

worked with this board in order to produce the maximum of result and have ever been ready to carry out any wish which we have expressed.
Sincerely yours,
F. B. Carvell
Chief Commissioner. Major G. A. Bell, C.M.G..
Deputy Minister,
Dept, of Railways and Canals,
Ottawa.
I hope this answer covers what the hon. gentleman asked me.



SPIRIT RIVER WHEAT SHIPMENTS.

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On the Orders of the Day.
Mr. WILLIAM H. WHITE (Victoria, Alta.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister of Railways (Mr. Reid) a somewhat similar matter to that brought up by the hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. Robb). I am sorry that I have not been able to give the Minister notice of this matter, but, as a matter of fact, I only got the information a few minutes ago. The subject is referred to in a local paper under the heading, " Wheat rotting at Spirit River for lack of transportation," and it is also dealt with in a letter addressed home by the Board of Trade at that point, stating that since the beginning of the year they had made appeals to the Department of Railways as well as to the Board of Railway Commissioners for assistance in getting out the giain-
John Dowsley Reid: On what railway is Spiiit River might I ask?


Mr. W. H. WHITE:: It is on the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia Railway. I might point out further that it is very necessary that this grain should be moved before the frost gets out of the ground in the spring, as there is only one line of railway running through the district and the settlers have to haul their grain in many cases fifty or sixty miles, and if they do not get it out this spring they will have to hold it over for another year. Many of the settlers have no storage facilities, and the chances are that they will lose their grain unless they get immediate help in the way of railway facilities. I might also point out that a great many soldiers have recently settled in the district, and, naturally they are depending on the returns from their first crop. Any assistance should be given at once or it will be of no avail.


John Dowsley Reid: Mr. Speaker, I am thoroughly seized of the facts of the situation which the hon. member has mentioned. The member for Edmonton (Mr. Griesbach)

has been bringing the matter to my attention every day-I had almost said he was worrying me-at any rate he has " put it up " to me to do something. In addition to the action taken by him, I have had telegrams from almost every settlement in that particular section. As the hon. member knows, we have a railway organization in the City of Montreal which formerly functioned as the Canadian Railway War Board, but is now known as the Railway Association of Canada. Whenever I receive notice of any transportation difficulties I immediately notify this organization, and it at once takes charge of the situation. In this particular case I took action some weeks ago, and the Railway Association in turn communicated with the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and I am informed by Mr. Grant Hall, the General Manager of that company, that every effort is being put forward to remedy the trouble complained of, that duty having been assigned to his company,-although of course the Canadian National Railway would go to the assistance of the Canadian Pacific Railway if required. I might just read a telegram, that I received this morning dealing with the subject. It is from Montreal, and states:-
Exchanged wired re situation on E.D. & B.C. Railway. General Manager that line states difficulty due to snow blockade which tied up portions of line for three to four weeks. With arrangements now made for additional power and cars from connecting lines and with improved weather conditions now being experienced situation rapidly returning to normal and line in better position to move traffic than any time in its history. Congestion of traffic will be relieved by extra power now available. Conditions improving daily. ,	*
(Signed) Railway Association of Canada.
Had I known that the hon. member (Mr. White) was going to bring this matter up I could have read him a dozen telegrams to show the people of the Spirit River district that we have been giving their difficulties every attention, and that the railways outside of the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia Railway have been doing their part to relieve the situation.



ESTIMATES FOR 1920-21.

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On the Orders of the Day.
Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING:: May I ask my right hon. friend, the Acting Prime Minister, when the House may expect the estimates to be brought down?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: On Monday next.



HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIALS- ORGANIZATION.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. E. B. DEVLIN (Wright):: I wish to direct attention to the fact that according to the minutes of the Proceedings of the Senate of Canada, of March 11, 1920, His Honour the Speaker of the Seriate has placed upon the Table of the Senate the organization of the staff of the Senate. I understand that the Civil Service Commission has held up the classification of the staff of the House of Commons awaiting the action of this House in passing upon that plan of organization. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, when it is your intention to place before the members of this House the plan of organization of the staff of the House?


Mr. SPEAKER:: I will give the hon.
gentleman an answer on Monday.



LEAGUE OF NATIONS-CANADIAN REPRESENTATIVE.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. H. S. BELAND (Beauce):: May 1
ask the Government whether the appointment has been made of a Canadian representative in the Assembly of the League of Nations? If not, when does the Government contemplate making it, and can the Government give the House any information as to the probable date of the first general meeting of the Assembly?


George Green Foster: I will have to
ask my hon. friend to defer his question until Monday or Tuesday. I will inquire into the matter and give such information as is available.
CREDIT TO SERBIAN GOVERNMENT. On the Orders of the Day:


Henri Sévérin Béland: lit is reported in the press of this morning that the Serbian Government has asked the Government of Canada to grant to them a credit of $20,000,000, as in the case of Roumania and Greece. Has such a request been received by the Government?


George Green Foster: No word of it is in the possession of the Government.
THE BODY OF FINLAY STONEHAM. On the Orders of the Day:


Mr. J. W. EDWARDS (Frontenac):: Has the attention of the Minister of Justice been directed to an article which appeared in

the Daily British Whig on the 16th instant entitled, "Where is the Body of Finlay Stoneham?" An article


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: So far as the hon. member has proceeded I cannot conceive that this is a question of wide public import. If it is not, the hon. member should proceed by putting a question on the Order Paper in the usual way.


John Wesley Edwards: Well, Mr. Speaker, it strikes me that it is of considerable importance whether a blunder has been committed and the body of a convict, supposed to be the body of Finlay Stoneham, sent to his parents which was not the body of Finlay Stoneham at all.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: This is hardly a question of sufficient public importance to engage the attention of the House upon the Orders of the Day. No question of public principle is involved, as I understand it, and if the hon. member will put his question on the Order Paper, he will be more within the Rules of the House.


John Wesley Edwards: Does the Minister of
Justice consider that the blunder that has been made is in any way due to the fact that the wardenship, deputy wardenship, surgeoncy and chief keepership of the penitentiary have been vacant for several months?


Rt. Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice):: Since the matter has gone so far as to include the statement of an alleged blunder, I prefer, if I may, to answer the question at once. No such blunder was made as is referred to in the correspondence in the Whig. The matter has been carefully enquired into. The body was examined in the presence of the father, who at one time said he could not identify it, and we are in possession of the reports of those who made the identification, showing on their statement not only that it was the body, but also that the father admitted that it was. Among the persons who made the identification of the body was the undertaker employed by the patents to attend to the burial, who was in a position to speak with personal knowledge as to indentification, inasmuch as he had been one of the jurors who sat at the trial of the prisoner whose body was in question. No blunder, therefore, was committed, and therefore no blunder could be attributed to the delay in the appointments referred to. With regard to that, the hon. gentleman will understand that these appointments have to go through

the necessary process of submission to the Civil Service Commission.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I must point out to the House that this does not come within the class of questions which ought properly to be pjit upon the Orders of the Day.



DISMISSAL OF ARTHUR S. PORTER.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (Cape Breton Noith and Victoria):: I wish to read a brief despatch which appeared in yesterday evening's issue of the Ottawa Journal, and to put a question with regard to it. The despatch is neaded: " Man who started Inquiry is Fired:	Man responsible for Investigation into Combine loses Position," and reads:
Hamilton, Ont., March 17-Arthur S. Porter, local manager of the Canadian General Electric Company, who was instrumental in starting the investigation by the Board of Commerce into the alleged Wholesale Grocers' Combine, has lost his position with the General Electric Company, according to a statement made today by Mr. Porter. Porter was called as a witness at the hearing in this city last week, though the Crown Counsel, A. W. Roebuck, told the board that he had not intended this.
Attorney General W. E. Raney, In a letter to the board following the board's sitting at Hamilton, sharply criticized Chairman W. F. O'Connor for having brought the Crown's informant into light at the inquiry.
I wish to direct the attention of the leader of the Government to this embarrassing and unfortunate situation. If this witness was so dismissed, the Department of Labour or some other department of the Government should see to it that witnesses who are called by the Government are not subjected to treatment of- that kind.


George Green Foster: I have no knowledge of the circumstances. I think that my hon. friend will, on reflection, come to the conclusion that it is very difficult for the Government to keep tab on all the transactions that take place between employers and employees in their several establishments.



CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.

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The House resumed consideration in committee of the following proposed resolution-Hon. C. C. Ballantyne, Minister of Marine and Fisheries-Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Resolved, that it is expedient to repeal sections eighty-five to eighty-nine, both inclusive, and section ninety-one of the Canada Shipping Act, chapter one hundred and thirteen of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1906, and to reenact in lieu thereof:-

(1)	That every British subject who,-
(a)	served as a master or mate of a seagoing or coasting sailing vessel of over seventy-five tons, gross tonnage, before the first day of January, one thousand nine hundred and twenty, for a full period of twelve months within ten years immediately next preceding the date of his application for a certificate of service,
(b)	produces satisfactory evidence of his sobriety, experience, ability and general good conduct on board ship, and
(c)	passes the sight test and the prescribed examination in signalling, shall be entitled, on payment of the prescribed fee, to a certificate of service as a master or mate of a square rigged, or fore-and-aft rigged sea-going or coasting sailing vessel ' not exceeding seven hundred and fifty tons, registered tonnage, according as his service has been, (a) as master or as mate, (b) on a sea-going or on a coasting sailing vessel, (c) on a square rigged sailing ship or on a fore-and-aft rigged sailing vessel.
(2)	That in every such certificate of service the name, place and date of birth of the person to whom the same is issued shall be stated, and each certificate shall specify whether the holder is entitled to act as master or mate, whether the certificate is for sea-going vessels or for vessels in the coasting trade, and whether for square rigged sailing vessels or for fore-and-aft sailing vessels, and that it is not for any vessel exceeding seven hundred and fifty tops, registered tonnage.
The CHAIRMAN:: When the committee
rose last night the resolution had been read and was under consideration. The member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) had the floor.


Mr. DUFF:: I have two objections to this resolution: First, that the deparment has been so long in bringing it .before the House; second, that it does not go quite far enough. Outside of that, however, I intend to support the resolution, and I will proceed to give my reasons for doing so.
Before the House adjourned yesterday afternoon, the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria (Mr. McKenzie) took exception to this resolution, and he gave reasons why he felt that this House should not pass the resolution nor the Bill to be founded on it. I do not think it is necessary for me to say that I have .the greatest respect for the hon. member and also for his ability, and I am sorry that I have to disagree with him. If this were a matter of jurisprudence or concerning some legal point, I would certainly not dare to controvert anything he might say. On this matter, however, I do not feel that I need apologise for taking a different point of .view from that which he took yesterday .afternoon. The hon. member for Cape "Breton North and Victoria was afraid that if this resolution passed, the standard that had so far been maintained in the appointment of masters and mates for the Canadian mercantile marine would suffer, and that we would not have as good men manning our ships as we have at the present time. I should like to go into the history of Canadian slapping for a little while in order to prove to my hon. friend that his fears are groundless.
What is known as the Canada Shipping Act to-day is practically an Act which was copied from the old English Act, and from the time that Act was put into force by the English Government and the Board of Trade, there has been no question as to. the merits of that Act. After Confederation, when Canada was formed into a nation, the then Canadian Government practically adopted the English Shipping Act. Since that time, it is quite true, a few unimportant changes in the shape of amendments have been made, but those amendments do not cover all the ground necessary .to make the Canada Shipping Act a first-class piece of legislation for doing the work necessary in regard to Canadian shipping. It is' also true that two or three years ago the then Minister of Marine or the Marine Department retained the services of a lawyer at Halifax to revise the Shipping Act, and I hold in my hand the revision which this gentleman made and which has not gone into force. I have looked over it very carefully, and I cannot find many Changes in it; and before the proposed pew Bill goes into effect, I would suggest to the Government and, in particular, to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Ballantyne), that a new revision be made, and that a practioal ship-owner should be appointed along with a lawyer so that they could together make a proper revision. Under the old Shipping Act, sections 95, 96 and 97 set forth exactly the qualifications necessary and what it is necessary for a sailor to do before he can become either a mate or a captain of a Canadian ship. Under the old Act no captain could sail a ship over 100 tons unless he had a certificate, but that was amended, and the limit . is now 150 tons. That was all very well a (few years ago; but during the last few years the Government and, in particular, the Minister of Marine, realized that it was impossible to work under that Act, one reason being that the examinations which the sailors are subjected to would puzzle a Philadelphia lawyer. In order to be able to pass those examinations, a man would need to be a scholar and to have a university education, and there are in Canada to-day very few men who could pass the

examinations necessary under the clauses which I have just quoted. Just for a few minutes, if the House will bear with me, I will give one or two instances of what sailors have to do in order to get one of those certificates. To take the examination for a first mate, a candidate, must be not less than nineteen years of age and have served fite years at sea. That is to say, he must go to sea when he is fourteen years of age and serve five years. Before I go any further, the committee will, I am sure, admit that a man who leaves his home at fourteen years of age and goes to sea for five years, cannot be very far advanced with his education. Of the five years which he must serve at sea,
(a)	One year must have been in a capacity not lower than fourth mate of a sea-going vessel whilst holding a second mate's certificate for sea-going vessels;
(b)	or one year and a half must have been in a capacity not lower than first mate in a coasting vessel whilst holding a second mate's certificate for sea-going vessels;
(c)	or one year must have been as pilot with a first-class pilot's certificate. ,
. In addition to that, he must answer certain questions, some of which are:
To answer questions on right angled spherical trigonometry.
To compute the time at which a given star will be on the observer's meridian.
To determine what bright stars will be within a certain hour-angle from the observer's meridian, above the' pole and above the horizon, at any given time; also the hour-angle, east or west, of each of the stars, andi whether they are to the north or south of the observer's zenith when passing the meridian.
And so on. What do we find that a candidate for a master's certificate has to do?
A candidate must be not less than twenty-one years of age, and-
(a)	he must have served six years at sea, of which one year must have been in a capacity not lower than first mate of a sea-going vessel, whilst holding a certificate not lower than a first mate's certificate for sea-going vessels,
(b)	or, he must have served six years at
sea, of which one year and a half must have been in a capacity not lower than first mate of a coasting vessel whilst holding a certificate not low'er than a first mate's certificate for seagoing vessels, .1 . - .	.	.
(c)	or, he must have served six and a half years at sea, one year of which must have been in a capacity not lower than second mate of a sea-going vessel, whilst holding a first mate's certificate for sea-going vessels.
These are some of the things which the candidate has to do. He must have gone to sea when he was about fourteen years of age. He is required:
To write an essay on some technical subject.

Just imagine a man who went to sea when he was fourteen years of age sitting down in a room and writing an essay on a technical subject. He is also required:
To find the latitude by the altitude of the Polar star at any time. To find the latitude by the meridian altitude of the moon.
The candidate will be required to give a figure and explanation for each problem worked, and give a written explanation of any of the terms used in navigation or nautical astronomy that may be asked.
It is almost impossible to get men who are able to pass such examinations, and I have proved from personal experience that the ordinary sailor or seaman cannot pass such examinations. ' The examination is a written one, and' !I have known a number of cases where the candidate, as soon as he came into the room and the questions on the paper were put before him, went all to pieces and had to leave the room. I have come across men who went up for an examination three times, men who had sailed vessels to practically all parts of the world and yet who could not pass that examination.
I cut from the Yarmouth Herald a few days ago a short article which is worth reading to the committee. It reads:
At the marine school last week two candidates were before examiner Capt. J. E. Murphy and passed successful examinations. The first was J. MacDonald Barkhouse, of Westport, who was granted a master's certificate for foreign going ships, steam or sail.
The following is the matter to which I wished particularly to refer:
Capt. Barkhouse was the first candidate to undertake in Yarmouth a master mariner's studies under the new and difficult system which has been recently established and he is to be congratulated on the excellence of his examination. The second was R, L. Lohnes, of Lunenburg, who was granted a mate's certificate for the coastwise trade.
It is almost impossible to get men who will go before the examiner and submit themselves to the examination which is put before them. If we are going to encourage the Canadian mercantile marine and shipbuilding, we must certainly put on the statute book something different from what the law is at the present time.
Let us see what our neighbour to the south is doing in regard to masters and mates. The United States, during the last few years, has been rather successful in building up a mercantile marine, and we could not do much better than follow the example of that country. I hold in my hands the navigation laws of the United

States. With regard to the qualifications pf masters, I might say that under the American navigation law there is no necessity whatever for a man to pass an examination to sail a ship under 700 tons. If the owners of the vessel and the underwriters are satisfied with his experience and ability, any man can sail a vessel up to 700 tons without license or certificate. The examination required above that limit of 700 tons is very simple, and is different altogether from the Canadian examination at the present time. Clause 69 of the American navigation laws reads as follows:
The board, of local inspectors shall license and classify the masters, chief mates, and second and third mates, if in charge of a watch, engineers, and pilots of all steam vessels, and the masters of sail vessels of over seven hundred gross tons, and all other vessels of over one hundred gross tons carrying passengers for hire. It shall be unlawful to employ any person, or for any person to serve, as a master, chief mate, engineer, or pilot of any steamer, or as master of any sail vessel of over seven hundred gross tons, or of any other vessel of over one hundred gross tons carrying passengers for hire, who is not licensed by the inspectors; and any one violating this section shall be liable to a penalty of one hundred dollars for each offence.
Clause 70.-Whenever any person applies to be licensed as master of any steam vessel, or of a sail vessel of over seven hundred tons, the inspectors shall make diligent inquiry as to his character, and shall carefully examine the applicant as well as the proofs which he presents in support of his claim, and if they are satisfied that his capacity, experience, habits of life, and character are such as warrant the belief that he can safely be intrusted with the duties and responsibilities of the station for which he makes application, they shall grant him a license authorizing him to discharge such duties on any such vessel for the term of five -years.
In view of these regulations I think it is certainly high time for some change to be made in our Canadian laws. Up to the outbreak of war in 1914, owners of vessels in Canada had a way of getting around the present Canada Shipping Act. I think the Minister of Marine (Mr. Ballantyne) will agree with me when I say that perhaps 75 per cent of the Canadian tonnage on the Atlantic coast, instead of being registered in Canada, as it should have been, was registered at the town of Bridgeton, Barbadoes, in the West Indies, simply because under the Canada Shipping Act an uncertificated master could not sail a vessel over 150 tons. Vessels over that tonnage were registered at Bridgeton so that our men could sail them. After the war started, practically all the nations of the world, or at all events the Allied nations, passed a regulation or Order in Council prohibiting the
transfer of registry of vessels from the country in which they were owned. After 1914 the Canadian Government refused to allow vessels built in Canada to be registered at Bridgeton. As a result, shipowners came to the Minister of Marine and to the Government and represented that it was impossible for them to get certificated masters to sail their vessels, and that something would have to be done to relieve the situation. The situation was relieved by the Government passing an Order in Council giving power to the Minister of Marine to grant, on application, permission for uncertificated masters to sail vessels over 150 tons. That, in my opinion, was the proper thing to do, and I certainly have no fault to find with it. So much tonnage of the Allies was being sunk every day in the week that we were told that if we could not fight we could help our country by building ships, and shipping men and monied men all over Canada decided to help in that way. The result was that in the Maritime Provinces and other parts of Canada new shipyards were opened and more ships were built during the war than had been built for many years past. Then we were faced with the condition that it was impossible to get masters to sail these vessels, so the Government passed this Order in Council. I think under the circumstances the Government should be congratulated on its action at that time, which allowed good men without certificates to sail our vessels.
The hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria (Mr. McKenzie) in his speech yesterday afternoon said that insurance companies would object to these men sailing vessels. Well, Sir, I have had a little experience myself with insurance companies, and I have always been told by the underwriters that they look at the morals of a man far more than at anything else, and if they and the owners are satisfied that the man in charge of a vessel is a good, safe, reliable man in whom the owners have confidence, the underwriters never object. They say they are satisfied that these men are just as capable as certificated masters, and are quite satisfied to allow them to sail the ships, and are willing to insure vessel and cargo.
To show the. ridiculousness of the law as it stands, let me cite one case only. Two vessels leave the port of Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, for North Sydney to load coal for St. Johns, Newfoundland. One is registered 149 tons, and the other 153 tons. These vessels go to North Sydney, load their cargo of coal, and when the captain of the 149-


Mr. FOURNIER:: I have listened very
attentively to the remarks of my hon. friend (Mr. Duff), whose knowledge and experience of the subject under discussion have enabled him to cover the ground- so thoroughly as to leave little for me to add. I would support his suggestion with regard to the inclusion of the " rules of the road" qualification, and would also suggest to the minister in regard to the tonnage of vessels, the desirability of adding to the resolution some such words as the following: "Vessels propelled by sail and partly by power, up to a tonnage of a hundred and seventy-five tons." Last year when this subject was introduced the hon. member for Matane, who unfortunately, has been called away, did not quite concur in the resolution. Since this resolution appeared on the Order Paper, however, we have discussed the matter and made diligent inquiry, and I believe that if the minister would accept the suggestions that have been offered, every interest would be served and the resolution would go far enough. I think that both sailing vessels and vessels propelled partly by power, up
to a hundred and seventy-five tons, should certainly be included.


Mr. BALLANTYNE:: I am very much
gratified at the approval of the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff), as well as the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Fournier). With regard to the alterations suggested by my hon. friend from Lunenburg, I have no objection to adding to Clause (C) the words " rules of the road," but I submit that this is fully covered by Clause (B) which demands ability and experience. With regard to the other suggestions of the hon. member, I do not think * it will be necessary for any man to serve a second year on a seventy-five ton ship in order to secure his master's-certificate. The hon. member also suggested the elimination from Clause (B) of the words "on board ship," where the applicant's sobriety, experience, etc., shall have been evidenced. I think the hon. member will agree with me that the man's conduct while on board ship should be just such as is described in this sub-section, and the change is therefore not advisable. On the whole, with the approval both of the hon. member for Lunenburg and of the member for Bellechasse, I should like to have the resolution stand as it is. There is a great deal in what has been said by the hon. member for Bellechasse in regard to the inclusion in the regulation of vessels propelled by gasoline engines. But that is a matter that I would ask the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Fournier) to kindly not press for the moment. I will be very glad to give the matter my careful consideration and to learn what the hon. member's views are upon it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Nothwithstanding the
very able address of my good friend from Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) I still stand obdurate and unconvinced, and determined to see to it as far as I can, that every man in this country who professes to be a professional navigator shall have some technical qualifications, and that a man who may have served on a schooner ten years ago for the period of one year and has not seen, salt water since until the present time shall not be qualified to receive the certificate of a first class seaman and the master of -a ship. We might have very good knowledge ten years ago of some things and yet to-day have forgotten all about such matters. More than ten years ago I was a school teacher and regarded myself as a good one; but if I were sent back to-day to the same scholars and the same class, and had the same duties to

do, I would find myself very much behind and unable to carry out the work I could do in those days. We have had the example of medical men who went overseas and remained there for three or four years. Upon coming back to this country they have had to take post graduate courses thus admitting that the time they spent away from their practice had altogether disqualified them from resuming the work they formally were accustomed to do. This is because in the intervening time they had foi gotten the things that were absolutely essential for them to know, and therefore deemed it necessary for them to again go over the old ground, briefly, of course, in order to regain their old proficiency as practitioners. I submit to you, Sir, that one year of training as a sailor ten years ago is not going to give any one a knowledge of Marsden's rules of the road. I have read those rules as a lawyer perhaps one hundred times but I would not undertake to stand an examination to-day with respect to them. Still I profess to be as well up in these 'matters as an ordinary seaman who might, ten years ago, have put in twelve months on board a vessel. I think it requires special training, special care, and a special amount of education before a man should be admitted to be master of a ship and guardian of the lives of whatever crew there may be in the vessel. I do not think that the British Board of Trade is ignorant of the requirements of a seaman in this country. I do not think we are making any mistakes when we follow the rules that have been established in Great Britain for the last one hundred or two hundred years and that have been consistently maintained and adhered to up to the present day as sea-going requirements. Britannia rules the waves, and Britannia has followed the rules which are enforced to-day and which the Minister ot'_ Marine is prepared to lay unholy hands on under this resolution-break them up, and say that Great Britain, with all its knowledge of seamanship, and with its reputation for carrying trade and for leading the world as far as seamanship and shipping are concerned that has always been wrong, and that it is wrong now; that we in this country know more than do the British authorities about shipping and that we must depart from the practice which has been followed by them with such success for the last two hundred years.
As I have already pointed out to the minister, and I believe he knows it we

have not in this Parliament absolute control of this question, and never had. The minister can pass his Bill, and he can give his man a certificate, but until it receives the approval of the Board of Trade and of the King in Council, and is gazetted in England, the certificated captain might as well be carrying a yellow covered almanac in his pocket as any certificate the minister may award. Section 95 of the Canada Shipping Act says:
No ship registered in Canada, over one hundred tons registered tonnage, shall go to sea from any port or place in Canada on any . voyage, not being a coasting voyage, unless the master and first mate, or only mate thereof have obtained and possess valid certificates either,-
(a) of competency or service for sea-going ships, appropriate to their several stations in such ship, or of a higher grade, from the minister; or, (b) of competency or service for sea-going ships, appropriate to their several stations in such ship, or of a higher grade, from the Board of Trade in the United Kingdom; or, (c) of competency appropriate to their several stations in such ship, or of a higher grade, granted in any British possession, and declared by order of His Majesty in Council, published in the London Gazette, under the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act,
IS94, or of any Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom containing such provisions, to be of the same force as certificates of competency for foreign sea-going ships granted under the Acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom relating to merchant shipping.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. gentleman is now referring to the competency certificate. This resolution, and the Bill that is based on it, very clearly sets forth that the certificate in question is not a competency certificate but a service certificate, and^ there is a vast difference between the two. The Shipping Act provides for a service certificate only in the case of a man who shall have served on a sailing vessel prior to 1870. What I am trying to do is simply to advance the legislation fifty years.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I have heard of a certain boy who said to the school teacher " I am not as stupid as you thought I was."
" No," said the teacher, " You are very much more stupid." I find that it is much more difficult to bring correction home to the minister than I thought it would be at first. I pointed out to him half a dozen times that this provision of service was adopted at the time the first Act came into force some sixty years ago so that no hardship would be suffered, but that any person who enters upon seamanship after the enactment of the Shipping Act must be un- * derstood to comply with the law. I point out to the minister also that any man who

goes to sea now and is looking for a certificate or promotion is doing so and working with a full knowledge of what the law is. But to say that the old condition is to be brought up forever and that education, seamanship and knowledge, is to be cast to one side was never the intention. The minister says I am wrong about this but the first two or three lines in section 95 sets forth that no ship registered in Canada of over one hundred tons registered tons shall go to sea from any port or any place in the Dominion on any voyage not being a coasting voyage unless the master and first mate or only mate has obtained a certificate of the class that I mentioned. That is the law. My bon. friend (Mr. Ballantyne) may shake his head, but he cannot change the law and the practice of this country. The Act must receive the sanction of the King in Council and it must be published in the Royal Gazette to give our certificates the same force and effect as certificates obtained in Great Britain, and if my hon. friend is going to turn out masters and mates without any qualification, except that perhaps ten years ago they had been at school for twelve months, he will be disappointed if he expects their certificates to he recognized when they come before the British Board of Trade.
I have nothing further to say about the matter, Mr. Chairman. If the hon. minister is going to be absolutely blind to what has been the law and practice since the inception of our Parliamentary institutions, and as a result of that blindness stumbles, it is no fault of mine; I have warned him.
Mr. ROBERT H. BUTTS (Cape Breton South and Richmond):	Mr. Chairman, I
have listened to the remarks of the hon. members who have spoken on this question.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Louder.


Mr. BUTTS:: Do you want me to scream? There is some merit in those remarks, and I agree very largely with the position taken by my hon. friend from Lunenburg (Mr. Duff). There are also a few points in the remarks of my hon. friend from North Cape Breton (Mr. D. D. McKenzie) that I can still agree with. I may almost quote the words of my hon. friend from Lunenburg to the effect that the only difficulty he had with the resolution was that it did not go quite far enough. My hon. friend from North Cape Breton yesterday afternoon drew comparisons between the examinations set for master mariners and those
set for miners. In those comparisons he was not quite correct, because in nine cases out of ten miner's examinations are oral, for the simple reason that miners get their education in the coal-mines and not in the schools or colleges, and it is therefore somewhat embarrassing for them to submit to a written examination. Exactly the same thing applies to the little boy who leaves school and ships in a fore-and-after at fourteen years of age. He cannot become a master mariner until he is nineteen, but having spent five years at sea he is not likely to have any opportunity of studying mathematics. Therefore I feel inclined to agree with my hon. friend from Lunenburg that the examination should be oral, particularly in connection with small vessels, because I think he will agree with me that out of his old port of Lunenburg, or out of Liverpool or St. John many a man has taken a sailing ship to Oporto or to the Mediterranean when, as they used to say in the olden days, "he had to smell his way." The science of navigation did not count for very much in those times.
I believe that the entire argument of my hon. friend from North Cape Breton must fall to the ground. We have the Canada Shipping Act, and surely if this Parliament had jurisdiction to pass that Act, they have from time to time jurisdiction to amend it as in their wisdom they may deem necessary. I think that follows as the night follows the day. Then if they have jurisdiction, why question it in such very pronounced terms as those used by my hon. friend? On the contrary, may we not even question his interpretation of the law?
I am of opinion, Mr. Chairman, that this resolution is perfectly within the jurisdiction of this House, and I am surprised that any hon. member should venture to question it. As I said before, we have the Canada Shipping Act, and if fiom lime to time shipping conditions vary, shou'd we not have the same power to amend that measure as we had to enact it some years ago? We have not been stripped of any of our jurisdiction. Indeed, if any attempt had been made to abridge that jurisdiction there would have been a storm of protest throughout the whole Dominion. The Canada Shipping Act is the law to-day; but it may not be the law to-morrow if this House says so.
- But, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, the resolution in my opinion does not go far enough. I think there should be an entire reconstruction of the Canada Shipping Act. On different occasions yesterday

afternoon and this afternoon the British Board of Trade has been referred to. They have R.N.'s,-those are the Royal Navy men, the highest order of shipping masters, then they have the R.N.R.'s. Now, if we inquire what those two classes of men are, we shall find that the R.N.R.'s are those who have failed to make a success of shipping. In other words, the title means. Go back and sit down, and when we cannot get any one else we may call on you. We have many ships sailing out of Canadian ports under the command of R.N.R.'s. Notwithstanding the decision of Lord Mersey, I assert that it was an R.N.R. who was responsible for the disaster in the St. Lawrence River when the " Empress of Ireland " was rammed by the " Storstad " and some eleven hundred or twelve hundred souls were lost. There are too many R.N.R.'s sailing ships out of our ports, and the Canada Shipping Act should be so amended as to make it compulsory for every man taking a ship out of a Canadian port to have a Canadian certificate.
I am inclined to qualify my agreement with my hon. friend from Lunenburg in this way: That the examinations for the masters of small sailing vessels should not be so strict as are the examinations for masters of ships of 11,000, 12,000 and 15,000 tons. The former examinations should not be so exacting as in the case of the examinations for the masters of ships who may have under them perhaps ninety or one hundred of a crew, and whose knowledge must cover marine and engineering subjects and in fact almost all the different trades that enter into the completed mechanism of the modern steamer. These men should be educated nien. But as to these little 90, 100, and 150-ton schooners,-why, I have sailed one of them myself, and I would always manage to keep clear of the rocks. While I offer these few little suggestions, I believe that the resolution should be unanimously adopted, because it is a step in advance. Numerous disasters have occurred on our maritime coasts and on the Newfoundland coast; there was the case of the " Florizel," which was lost off cape Grace about a year ago. I agree, therefore, with my hon. friend (Mr. McKenzie) when he says that if these men are to carry on the duties of professional master mariners, then they should have the education of professional master mariners. But a line should be drawn between the big ship which carries hundreds of passengers and a large crew and the little ship that merely goes on lobster courses along our shores and is hard-[Mr. Butts. 1
ly ever out of sight of land. On one occasion I made the trip from Halifax to the strait of Canso on one of our government ships, and standing on the bridge with the captain throughout the whole of the night I was never for more than then consecutive minutes out of sight of three lights:	That was the smallest
number of lights that I saw at any one time. The coasts of the Maritime Provinces and Newfoundland and the shores of the St. Lawrence are well lighted. But here is another point in connection with which I made a suggestion to the minister a year ago. The pilotage system of this country is bad, as was proved by the Halifax disaster, and as is proved by the number of ships that are being run on the rocks. I know men who have gone from Sydney Harbour as far as St. John to bring over a ship and who had never in their lives been out of sight of land. It was brought out during the investigation into the Halifax explosion that men were piloting ships into Halifax harbour at that time who had never been out of sight of land. Some of the men who would be wiped out by the requirement of certificates are men who, if you sent them from here to China, would keep a vessel afloat so long as there was a cup of water under it. I suggest that the minister take counsel with some of the marine men in the different departments and that the Canada Shipping Act be amended, revised and improved. Even though my hon. friend (Mr. McKenzie) for whose legal acumen I have the very greatest respect, says that we have/ no jurisdiction, I suggest that the minister take a chance.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. BALLANTYNE thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 21, to amend the Canada Shipping Act,-(Certificate of Service).	*


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the fi,rst time.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. J. D. Reid (Acting Minister of Public Works), the House went into Committee to consider the following proposed resolution, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
(Resolved, that it is expedient to bring in a measure to ratify and confirm the agreement made between His Majesty the King, as represented1 by the Minister of Public Works of Canada, hereinafter referred to. as "the Government," and the Corporation of the City of

Ottawa, hereinafter referred to as "the Corporation," whereby amongst other provisions, it is agreed,-
1.	That the Government will pay to the Corporation the sum of $75,000 annually for a period of five years from the first day 'of July, 1910; the said payments to be in full satisfaction and discharge of all claims and demands on the Government by the Corporation except as otherwise provided in the said agreement.
2.	That the Government will pay to the Corporation for water supply, for use in and on [DOT]buildings, and parts of buildings, lands and premises in the City of Ottawa, now or hereafter owned or occupied by the Government at any time during the period of five years from the first day of July, 1919 (except buildings, lands and premises leased by the Government and subject to the general water rates established by by-law of the Corporation) and also for use in and on the Rideau Hall grounds and the Central Experimental Farm, and the buildings thereon, at the price or rate of thirteen cents per thousand gallons for such quantity of water as it may use in any year up to 200,-OOO.OOO gallons and for water used in excess of 200,000,000 gallons in any year at the price or rate of ten cents per thousand gallons; and that water rates for buildings and parts of buildings-, and premises leased by the Government, as to which the Government is under obligation by the terms of their lease to make payment of wateri rates, shall be at the general rates established by the Water-works By-Law of the Corporation,
3.	That the Corporation will install and maintain water meters at all convenient places where a supply of water is taken from its water-works for the use of the Government, and the Government will pay the Corporation annually a sum equal to ten per cent of the cost of such meters; the amount payable by [DOT]the Government in each year to be determined by quarterly readings from said meters, and to be paid quarterly.
4.	That in consideration of the said annual payments of $75,'000 and of the grant to the Ottawa Improvement Commission of $150,000 a year for ten years, the Corporation agrees that said payment of $75,000 shall he in full *discharge of all claims in respect of water supply for street sprinkling, for fire protection, and for use in jVfajor's Hill Park, and in such other parks and driveways as may be owned *or maintained by the Ottawa Improvement Commission.
5.	That the Government shall maintain, repair and keep in repair the Connaught Place Bridge over the Rideau Canal, the Laurier Avenue Bridge, the bridges over the ChaudiSre Slides, and the sidewalks on the east side of Elgin street and on the south side of Laurier Avenue on front of and along the side of Cartier iSquare.
6.	That the Government shall maintain and repair the sidewalks on the north side of Wellington street between Connaught Place and, the western boundary of the Perley Home property, and on so much of the southern side of the said street as is in front of property owned by the Government, and the roadway, as it now exists, of Wellington street between Connaught Place and Bank street; and shall maintain and repair, and renew and replace, the existing asphalt pavement on that part of the said street which lies between Bank street and the westerly boundary of the Perley Home property; and if a new pavement be hereafter
placed on that part of Wellington street which lies east of Bank street, such work shall be done by the Corporation, and property holders thereon shall not be released from any obligations imposed on them by law as regards payment of any taxes or local improvement rates in respect of their property on the said street, and the provisions of fhe contract between the1 same parties hereto, dated 7th August, 19,16, with regard to Wellington street, are made a part of this agreement.	-
7.	That the Government undertakes to indemnify and keep indemnified the Corporation from all manner of damage or injury, suits, claims, and demands on account of the said works or incurred by reason or in consequence of the execution thereof, or the supply of material thdrefor; and1 will pay to the Corporation on demand any expense sustained by it in consequence of such claims or any money reasonably and properly paid by the Corporation in settlement thereof, save and except suits, claims and demands arising by reason of anything done or omitted to be done by the Corporation, its agents, servants and workmen.
8.	That all statutes of Canada, Orders in Council, by-laws and agreements, whereby the Corporation agreed to exempt from income taxes the incomes of officers and servants of the Government, resident in the City of Ottawa, derived from the Government, shall be abrogated and cancelled; and all former agreements between, the Government and, the Corporation with respect to these subject matters, inconsistent with the provisions of this agreement, shall be cancelled.
John Dowsley Reid: Perhaps I had better give a few words of explanation in regard to the resolution, although, of course, when the Bill has been introduced and gets into committee, I can give further explanations as the various clauses are taken up. The situation is this: There has always been an agreement between the city of Ottawa and the Dominion for a certain annual payment for services given to the Government public buildings by the city. If my memory serves me aright, the amount paid annually for a certain number of years was $15,000. At the termination of the first agreement, the matter was taken up with the Government, and instead of increasing the amount, the Government made an annual grant of $100,000 to the Improvement Commission of the City of Ottawa. The city council have always claimed that the Dominion Government should pay taxes, and their requests, when made, were for an amount equal to the taxes they thought the Government should pay on property owned by the Government. This agreement expired some time during last year, and the city council again approached the Government for a new agreement requesting a very much larger amount than what had been paid during the term of the previous agreement, namely the last ten years. A sub-committee of Council was appointed, and a number of meetings were held with representatives of the city coun-



cil. The demands made by the city council were very much larger than the terms covered by this resolution. After a number of meetings and negotiations, the suggestion which was made by the Government and which is contained in this resolution, was accepted by the city council, so that now, instead of paying $15,000 a year, the Government will, as will be seen by the resolution just read, pay for the term of this agreement an annual amount of $75,000 and increase the grant to the Improvement Commission from $100,000 to $150,000 per annum. This really means that from now on for the new term we shall pay $225,000 per annum to the city of Ottawa and to the Improvement Commission, instead of $15,000 and $100,000 as previously.


Mr. FIELDING:: How much will you pay for water?


John Dowsley Reid: I was just coming to that.
In addition to the sums mentioned, we shall pay an extra amount for water. I have not the memorandum before me, but I shall have it when the Bill is brought before the House. In addition to what I have mentioned, there was in the previous agreement a clause whereby the salaries of the civil servants were exempted from any taxation. That clause will not appear in this Bill, and civil servants will be in the same position in that respect as any other citizen of the city of Ottawa. While the increase in the annual payment is very great, the sub-committee of Council who took the matter up with the city council realized that the Government are getting many more advantages than we did under the previous agreement. Our properties have increased and the city has had to make many improvements on account of Government properties. I did not intend to go fully into this matter today; I have not the papers with me; but I thought that by introducing the Bill, I would get the matter in such a position before the House that I could later give fuller details.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I understand that last year an agreement was reached between the then Minister of Public Works, Hon. Mr. Carvell, and the city. I should like to know from the Acting Minister of Public Works if the resolution which is now introduced is based upon the agreement that was negotiated then between the hon. Mr. Carvell and the city. I understood that the city officials were not altogether satisfied with the terms of that agreement, but the then minister stated in the House that he thought it was perfectly satisfactory. I 
should like to know whether that draft agreement is followed in this resolution, or whether this is a new agreement altogether, not following the opinion expressed by the then Minister of Public Works. The amount that we are to pay for water for the different public buildings appears to be very large. There are a great many ways of arriving at a proper estimate. Water can be purchased on the meter basis, just the same as electric light, and every gallon of water that goes into the Government buildings can be measured, and a reasonable rate arrived at. I do not know whether a proper investigation has been made along that line. Many corporations in this country are supplying water to different institutions. The cities of Toronto and Quebec no doubt supply water to the Provincial Government buildings in those cities, and the city of Montreal also furnishes water to different public buildings.
I should like to know how our bargain compares with those that other cities have made with Provincial Governments, for instance. The town from which I come supplies water to a neighbouring town on a meter basis. The charge is 1/6 or 1/8 of a cent per gallon, I believe. At all events, it is a very small amount, and the town that is receiving the water is satisfied that it has made a fair bargain. I am sure the House would like to be advised that we are making a provident bargain with the city of Ottawa, and acting in a business-like manner.
As to the grant to the Ottawa Improvement Commission, I have no criticism to make, because I have no knowledge of the matter, but I do' know something about the supply of water. I was mayor of our town at the time we made the arrangement with Sydney Mines and the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company, arid I should like to be assured that the country, which will have to pay this money, is getting a square deal.


John Dowsley Reid: Answering my hon. friend's
first question, whether this is the agreement that was discussed by the exMinister of Public Works (Mr. Carvell), I might say that it is. It was entered into on June 30, 1919. I was on the committee with Mr. Carvell when we made this agreement, and since he left the department it has not been taken up again with the city.
With reference to the supply of water, the city claimed that they were losing a very large amount of money on the large quantity of water consumed in the Government buildings, and the committee thought

it was not fair that the people of the city of Ottawa should have to make good this amount. The committee agreed that the Government should pay what was fair and right. The arrangement we have made is, in part, as follows:
The Government will pay to the corporation tor water supply, tor use in and on buildings, and parts of buildings, lands and premises in the city of Ottawa, now or hereafter owned or occupied by the Government at any time during the period of five years from the first day of July, *919, except buildings, lands, and premises leased by the Government and subject to the general water rates established by bylaw of the corparation, and also for use in and on the Rideau Hall grounds and the Central Experimental Farm, and the 'buildings thereon, at the price or rate of thirteen cents per thousand gallons for such quantity of water as it may use in any year up to 200,000,000 gallons, and for water used in excess of 200,000,000 gallons in any year, at the price or rate of ten cents per thousand gallons.
That in consideration of the said annual payments of 575,000 and of the grant to the Ottawa Improvement Commission of $150,000 a year for ten years, the corporation agrees that said payment of $75,000 shall be in full ois-oharge of all claims in respect of -water supply for street sprinkling, for fire protection, and for use in Major's Hill park, and in such other parks and driveways as may be owned or maintained by the Ottawa Improvement Commission.
I think that answers my hon. friend's other question as to the supply of water.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Has the minister any estimate of what the city of Ottawa lost through the exemption of civil servants from taxation by the city?


John Dowsley Reid: I will give full details
when the Bill is under discussion. I have not the information here, but I know it is quite a large amount.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In view of the fact that the amount is considerable, and that we are going to pay practically double what wre have paid to the city in the past, would the minister be prepared when the Bill is under discussion to say what increase there has been in the service rendered byt the city to the Government?


John Dowsley Reid: I shall have all the details, and shall have the deputy minister here when the Bill is under discussion.


Mr. FRIPP:: I have not been able to hear the explanation made by the minister (Mr. Reid), nor have I been able to hear the requests made by the leader of the Opposition. I rise simply to draw the Government's attention to the fact that clause 8 which proposes to abrogate the agreement which has existed between the
civil servants and the Governments of Canada ever since we have had a Government here, so that the city may exact income tax from the servants of the Government, seems to me to be a great hardship upon the civil servants residing in the city of Ottawa. There can be no question but that the Government has made a very hard bargain with the city of Ottawa under the proposals now before the House. The material advantages that are given to the Government by the corporation of the city of Ottawa are worth far above and beyond the amount of $75,000 a year which is to be granted under this agreement. I think that the further charge now to be levied on the civil servants of Ottawa of paying an income tax into the coffers of the corporation is really enforcing too hard a bargain, and one that will result in the Government, who are the employers of the civil servants, being under the necessity of increasing their salaries. I trust the minister will reconsider Clause 8 with a view to retaining the present condition of things. I should like to know whether the mayor and corporation, who appeared for the city, were willing that this clause should form part of the agreement.


John Dowsley Reid: A copy of the agreement
is attached to the Bill and is supposed to be signed not only by the Minister of Public Works, but by the mayor and city clerk. Otherwise I would not be here moving this resolution, which is the result of the unanimous agreement of both sides. The agreement provides that all former agreements between the Government and the corporation with respect to these subject matters shall be cancelled; and this includes provisions of former order in council by which the salaries of civil servants were exempt from income taxation by the corporation.
1 have had nothing to do with the negotiations further than attending meetings of the sub-committee of council and the corporation last year. Any negotiations from that time on have been carried on by Mr. Carvell, and I am informed that the corporation and Mr. Carvell decided on this agreement, as a result of which I am now submitting this legislation.


William Stevens Fielding: Whatever may
be the merits of other features of the resolution, there ought to be no objection, I should think, to that clause which abolishes exemption from taxation. There never was any good reason why the civil servants of Ottawa should be exempt, while the civil

-servants of Hull were obliged to pay income taxes. I am aware that it was a privilege granted the civil servants of Ottawa many years ago, and sometimes these ancient rights and privileges continue in existence for a long time. My hoil. friend from Ottawa (Mr. Fripp) may he right in saying that the abolition of this exemption should be a reason why the Government should consider the question of better salaries for the civil service. But I am one of those who never could see any reason in days gone by why we should give exemption to the civil servants of Ottawa in regard to income taxation while others were denied the privilege. The civil servants of Ottawa should be on the same footing as other civil servants in this respect and pay their taxes like any other citizens.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Did II understand the hon. member for Ottawa to say ' that he regarded the withdrawal of this right of exemption from taxation as con-*stituting the bargain between the Government and The city harder as respects the [DOT]city?	-


Alfred Ernest Fripp: I say that the city is evidently taking the position that they will exact their rights from the civil servants in the matter of income taxation because they are forced to do so. That, I assume, is the contention. But what I say is that if the Government of Canada, instead of paying the city $75,000 a year, paid them $100,000, probably the city would not be anxious to insist on exacting income taxes from the civil servants, and the matter would really be evened up,


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would point out that the Government, as a matter of fact, is increasing the annual payment to 'The city from $15,000 to $75,000, and is also increasing the annual payment to the ' Ottawa Improvement Commission from $100,000 to $150,000, besides permitting the city to exact income taxation from the civil servants. If there is any hard bargain anywhere, it would appear to be so far as the civil servants in Ottawa are concerned.


John Dowsley Reid: I cannot agree with the
hon. member that there is any hard bargain on the civil servants, who are being classified to-day so that they may receive salaries on a fair proportion to other workers throughout the city who are filling positions of a similar character. If other citizens who are doing similar work to that of the civil servants are made to pay income taxes, there can be no reason why the

civil servants should not also pay taxes. I do not see why in the city of Ottawa the Government should virtually pay the income taxes of civil servants and not do the same in Toronto, Montreal, Halifax and every other city throughout the Dominion. To be logical we should bring in a Bill providing for the payment of the income taxes of all other civil servants in the country, if there is any reason in the civil servants of Ottawa being exempt from taxation. I agree with the hofl. member (Mr. Fielding) that the civil servants should pay their taxes the same as any other class of citizens.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Can the minister inform us as to what the law is in Ontario in regard to exemption from income taxation? I believe a man is entitled to vote on his salary, and when the assessor comes around he exempts eight hundred dollars, taxing the rest.


John Dowsley Reid: I cannot give the information offhand. The municipalities are entitled to collect on income tax. In some provinces there are provincial but not municipal taxes on income, while in others there are provincial, municipal and Dominion taxes. When the Bill is introduced I will endeavour to have a statement submitted showing the law as it stands in each of the nine provinces.


William Stevens Fielding: There is a phase
of this question which we shall soon have to face. I am not taking any exception to liberal treatment of the Ottawa Improvement Commission. I had the pleasure of introducing the first legislation under which it was created, and as it has done excellent work I should like to see it continued and liberally aided. After all, Ottawa is the capital of Canada, by reason of which position it has some claims which perhaps do not correspond with the claims of other cities. Unfortunately, however-I suppose this is inevitable-the very fact that we have been recently considering Ottawa's claim and proposing to give larger allowances to this city has attracted notice throughout the country, and many of our cities and towns are beginning to raise the question why they should not get something out of the Dominion Treasury. I think there was a deputation waited upon the minister a short time ago from an eastern city on the subject. The lailwav companies own property on which taxation is paid to the municipalities. When that property is acquired by the Government



MAROH 22, 1000 581,

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, of Cahada-we are dodging the issue just for the moment by keeping up the idea of a corporation-it ceases to be liable for taxation and out of that condition there has arisen a very considerable feeling amongst the cities and towns that the Government should do something for them, and the fact of this arrangement with Ottawa is used for an argument. I entirely concur in the desire of the Government to treat the city of Ottawa generously in the matter, but we need not ignore-the fact that we have got to face this demand along with. the other question.
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I notice that in the
agreement we are charged for .the sprinkling of the Government parks and part of Wellington street. We are furnishing a large amount of money wherewith to beautify the city and provide it with fine parks and I think it is a small thing to charge us for the water used in sprinkling those parks. It is	a great	advantage	to thecity of	Ottawa	to have	the officials and members of Parliament come here from year to year. I think that any city in Canada would be glad to make concessions to the Government providing the capital were established within its precincts, but the city of Ottawa seems to consider we should pay a license for coming here at all. It charges us with the small things which it does and which it might very easily itself contribute towards the comfort of Members of Parliament. The city should be a little more generous and not charge the Government for sprinkling these parks.


John Dowsley Reid: I would not like it to go
uncorrected that the city of Ottawa is charging us for the sprinkling of the streets as the hon. member suggests. The municipal council claims that the sum of $75,000 is not sufficient to pay for the fire protection, and the other services outside of that which the nity performs, but we took the precaution to include in the agreement the sprinkling of water and any other work that might be done bjr the city. When I get a detailed statement I will be very glad to give further information.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If the fire protection
which the city is prepared to give is as capable, as efficient and as effective as was rendered when the Parliament Buildings ' were destroyed by fire we certainly should not pay a high rate for it.
Resolution reported.
Mr. REID thereupon introduced Bill No. 22 to Confirm an Agreement between
His Majesty ,the King and the City of Ottawa which was read a first time.



CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUATION AND RETIREMENT ACT AMENDMENT.

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On the motion of Sir Henry Drayton, Bill No. 17 to amend the Civil Service Superannuation and Retirement Act was read a second time, considered in committee, reported, read a third time, and passed.
On the motion of Sir George Foster the-House proceeded to the consideration of the Order of Notices of Motion.

William Stevens Fielding: For a copy of all correspondence between the Prime Minister of Canada and the Prime Minister of Great Britain under authority of a resolution of the Imperial War Cabinet of July 30, 1918.



PRIVATE BILL.


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Bill No. 18 to incorporate the Canada Security Assurance Company.-Mr. Mowat.
On motion of Sir George Foster the House-adjourned at 5.15 p.m.
Monday, March 22, 1920.