1920-05-07

SENATE BILL.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 114 (from the Senate), for the relief of William Edward Vina!l.-Mr. MacNutt.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. SPEAKER:: On Wednesday last the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Bel-and) put a question with reference to the French edition of the report of the Committee on Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment. I find upon inquiry that the report is practically complete, and will be bound and ready for distribution on Tuesday next.



THE PRIME MINISTER'S RETURN.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Leader of the Opposition):: I would ask my rt. hon. friend if the report is correct which appears m the press to-day that the Prime Minister is actually on his way back to Ottawa.


Rt. Hon. Sir GEORGE FOSTER (Acting Prime Minister):: The report is correct in so far as that the Prime Minister has started on his way. I do not know that it is correct to say that he will be here on Sunday. I am inclined to think not.


Mr. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: Perhaps the Minister of Railways might tell us.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: He knows nothing more about it.



DATE OF THE BUDGET.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Would my right hon. friend inform us when the Budget will be brought down?


George Green Foster: It will be brought down, if nothing happens in the meantime, on Wednesday next.


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Marquette):: I regret that at this end of the Chamber we have not heard a word of the pleasant little dialogue that has taken place between the leader of the Opposition .and the Acting Prime Minister.


Mr. JACQUES BUREAU (Three Rivers and St. Maurice):: They were having a tea. party.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should be obliged if they would repeat the performance in a little louder tone of voice. .


George Green Foster: It is all the fault of the leader of the Opposition. He spoke in too mild a tone and I answered in kind.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That does not give us the information we desire, however.


George Green Foster: The questions that were asked and the replies that were given were, first, whether the .report which appeared in the press that the Prime Minister was on his way back to Ottawa .was true, to which the reply was that the Prime Minister was on hie way here, but that I doubted whether he would be here on Sunday next-


Mr. P. F. CASGRAIN (Charlevoix-Mont-morency) :: It's a long way to Tipperary.


George Green Foster: -The leader of the Opposition also asked when the Budget would be brought down, and I replied that it would be brought down, if nothing happened to prevent it., on Wednesday next.
Mr. A. R. MoMASTER (Brome): Deo vo-lente.
inquiry re Question.
On the Orders of the Day:


Jacques Bureau: Some time ago I put a question on the Order Paper as to the terminals, lands and buildings belonging to the Canadian Northern at Port Arthur. On the 5th of May the Minister of Immigration (Mr. Calder) brought down what purports to be an answer to that question, but which is not an answer. I would ask the Minister of Railways if he intends to answer my question.


Hon. J. D. REID (Minister of Railways):: I have not seen the question.


Jacques Bureau: It appears on page 2078
of Hansard.


John Dowsley Reid: I will look it up and give the hon. member a further answer on Monday, if the question requires any other answer.


Mr BUREAU:: Not "any other answer," but an answer.



MENNONITES LEAVING FOR THE UNITED STATES.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. I. E. PEDLOW (South Renfrew):: In , this morning's Montreal Gazette there is a despatch to the effect that the Mennonites of Manitoba have decided to leave Canada and seek new homes in the United States. There was a despatch in the press a few days ago that about 9,000 Mennonites had decided to leave Saskatchewan for the United States. I should like to ask whether the Government have any information in connection with this matter, and if so, whether they are taking any steps to induce these people to remain in Canada.


George Eulas Foster: The Minister of Immigration (Mr. Calder) is not at present in the House, and I would rather my hon. friend deferred his question until he is here. I might add that it would be well for my hon. friend not to put too much trust in despatches.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Soldiers' Land Settlement-salaries of Board of Commissioners, $17,000.
["My proposal would\nnot be to employ a solicitor in each county\n\nto devote his whole time to the work. In our province we had offers from solicitors in the different counties to take up this work at so much per deed, and I believe that the work could have been done just as cheaply in New Brunswick if we had so employed a man in each county. Several lawyers from different counties talked to me about this .matter. I am not sure that you could get- it done for $4 each. That looks to me very cheap, because my experience with lawyers has been that they will hardly bid you the time of day for less than that.\nAt six o'clock the committee took recess.\nAfter Recess.\nThe House resumed at Eight o'clock."]
Jacques Bureau: Have these Estimates
already been taken up on some other day?


Mr. MEIGHEN:: They were taken up on one day which was not a Thursday or a Friday, so I am informed. I could not have been here myself.


Jacques Bureau: What day.


Mr. DOHERTY:: It was the day we had an amendment to the motion for going into Supply, which amendment was ultimately defeated and we went into Supply late in the evening and took up one of these items so that we could go on with them on another day, and then the House adjourned.


The CHAIRMAN:: If members of the committee will look at Hansard pf April 26, page 1741, it will be found that the first item in these Estimates was then considered.
Soldiers' Land Settlement, $50,000,000.


Arthur Meighen: The committee will be entitled before being asked to vote the very large sum called for by these items, to a short statement of the work of the Soldiers' Settlement Board during the past year. The board was constituted in 1917, constituted,
however, first of all, only for the purpose of assisting in the settlement of returned soldiers on Dominion lands. Certain work was done, certain entries were made, and assistance was given by the board to settlers on soldier grants or homestead lands. A year ago last December, power was taken and exercised under Order in Council, extending the work of the board to settlement on purchased lands, and enabling the board to give assistance by way of loans for improvements, stock, and equipment; a power it previously did not have. These powers so exercised as early as 1918 were confirmed by legislation of a year ago; and acting upon the Orders in Council and subsequent legislation the board has performed a very large achievement entailing a considerable financial commitment, a short record of which I think I should give.
The Soldiers' Settlement Act contemplated assistance to returned soldiers of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, of the United Kingdom, and of the United Kingdom's Allies in the great war, within certain restrictions set out in the definition. Under that legislation some fifty thousand men have applied to the Soldiers' Settlement Board, men almost wholly of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, and the work of the board has since consisted in the reception and disposition of those applications and of assistance to the men who were deemed to be qualified to receive that assistance under the Act.
At this stage I may say that the soldiers' settlement work divides itself into three distinct branches. There is, first, the agricultural branch; secondly, the lands and loans branch; and thirdly, what is known as the home branch. I might explain that the soldiers' settlement work is conducted, under the Act, as a part of the Department of the Interior, although in practice it has been carried on as a separate institution. That is to say, it is not in practice a distinct part of the department, having been conducted rather as in the nature of a separate department, the chairman of the board reporting direct to me as minister. The Interior Department is of sufficient magnitude to engage the full attention of the deputy minister. The Agricultural Branch has to do with the acceptance of applications from soldiers; with the deliberation as to whether or not the applicants are such as should' be granted assistance; with the training of men who are found to require training; with the determination of the extent and character of stock and equipment which the men should

receive; and finally with the supervision of the farming operations of the men after they are placed on the land.


Jacques Bureau: When the minister uses the word "training," is its application confined to training for farming purposes exclusively, or does it mean training in general?


Arthur Meighen: The training of which I am speaking is given only for the purpose of enabling men to become farmers. Under the Act the qualification boards were first established throughout the various agricultural districts of Canada. There was a qualification board at each district office of the Soldiers' (Settlement Board, of which district offices there are altogether eighteen in Canada. These qualification boards received the 50,423 applications that came in up to March 21st last and since that time have accepted a total of 36,830 men. There have also been accepted for training 1,556 men, and the rest have been either not finally disposed of or have been rejected. The work of the boards on the whole, I think, has been carried out with tolerable satisfaction; but as time progressed it was deemed best gradually to do away with the separate institution of qualification boards and to perform the same service through the permanent offices of the department. After the men are passed as fitted to come in under the Act, their selection of land, if they desire land to be purchased, is passed upon by what are known as loan boards, who receive the appraisal of the land at the hands of specially qualified appraisal officers, and upon that appraisal, or after such further inspection as is demanded, they state whether or not, at the price the soldier is prepared to pay for the land, the board should be advised to advance assistance against that land and to what amount. Those loan boards are situate in every district office of the Settlement Board in Canada; that is to say, in eighteen offices altogether. When the loans are passed they have, in the early work of the board, been put through the hands of local solicitors in order that the board's title and security as provided by the Act should be of the character which the aid given requires: We found the operations of the board, from the legal standpoint, to be, as we thought, unnecessarily expensive following that system. No other system was possible in the early stages of the board's work because of the rapid expansion of the organization which the rush of applications demanded. But in later months we have

adopted the policy of having a legal branch in each district office of the board, and in the more important offices this policy now obtains. The consequence has been that we have been able to reduce very materially, indeed rather startlingly, the legal costs of the operations under the Act. I can give the committee in detail what has been the result of the adoption of that policy but it may come by question and answer later on.
The board has purchased lands and has also loaned for the purpose of discharging incumbrances on lands already oiwned; it has purchased stock and equipment and loaned against stock and equipment to the soldier settler and has as well loaned to the soldier settler who locates upon Dominion lands or soldier grants. The operations of the board up to the date I just gave, the 27th March, 1920, entail a financial commitment on the Dominion of $58,741,605. That sum refers to the aggregate amount of the loans approved and passed by the board, and of that total approximately $42,000,000 has been disbursed.


Mr. POWER:: Since when? [DOT]


Arthur Meighen: Since the commencement of the board's operations.


Mr. BELAND:: That covers the 36,000
who have been passed?


Arthur Meighen: That covers all of the 36,000 who have been passed and whose loans have been approved. The 36,000 men may (be said to be either on the land to-day as a result of the operations of the (board or on the "way to the land. (Some applications for loans are still under consideration, some applicants have not yet selected land that suits them, but 15,234 are actually as of that date on the land and settled there under the operations of the board.


Mr. C. MARCIL:: Has the minister the figures by provinces?


Arthur Meighen: I can give the committee the result of the operation of the Act by provinces. The number of settlers in Alberta is the largest. I am giving now by provinces the number of men making up the aggregate of 15,234, who are at the present day upon the land under the Act:
Alberta	 4,603
Saskatchewan	 3,117
British Columbia	 2,555
Manitoba	 2,525
Ontario	 1,109
Quebec	 362
New Brunswick	 410
Nova Scotia	 319
Prince Edward Island	 234

The amount of the commitments toy provinces is as follows:
Alberta	$17,059, 331
Saskatchewan	 12,257,766
British Columbia	 10,728,388
Manitoba	 9,789,686
Ontario	 4,778,736
Quebec	 1,573,081
New Brunswick	 1,105,325
Nova Scotia	 981,581
Prince Edward Island.. ..	585,175
In proportion to population, Prince Edward Island stands very high in the list. The number in training at the .present time is 674. Of the total number of 36,000 odd who have been accepted as qualified, I stated before that 15,234 had actually had their loans approved and they are disposed of except for subsequent supervision in so far as the board is concerned. But the further fact exists that 6,511 more have, under the Soldier Settlement Act, settled upon soldier grants. Of these only a portion have received loans. There are many who have not received loans, and placing the number who have received loans-2,564-against the total entrants on Dominion lands or soldier grants, there would remain a balance of some 3,000. The total of settlers under the Act aggregates 19,181 at the present time. Of the 15,234 who received loans, 9,981 settled on purchased land; 2,779 received advances on lands they already owned to remove encumbrances and for improvements or for stock; 2,564 received advances on Dominion lands, soldier grants.
Of the total of $58,859,069, the commitments for loans are divided as follows:
Eoans against purchased lands .. $32,173,776
To remove encumbrances	 1,834,157
For permanent improvements .. ..	6,502,435
Advances for stock and equipment 18,348,701
The board, as every one understands, advances for the purpose of the purchase of land up to 90 per cent of the purchase price after of course the valuation is approved of by the board's officers, but providing that no single advance exceeds $4,500 for that purpose. Having regard to stock and equipment, the board advances $7,500. The total advance though per capita to all who have received the benefit of the Act averages $3,700.


Mr. PROULX:: What are the terms of repayment?


Arthur Meighen: The terms of repayment as respects land and improvement advances are repayment in twenty-five years, with interest at 5 per cent amortised. The terms of repayment of advances for stock and equipment are, I think, six years, with free interest for two years.
There is no interest charged on stock and equipment for the first two years. Under the new Act, as amended this year, we will have power to charge interest on stock and equipment for the first two years with respect to those who. have settled on improved lands.


Charles Marcil: Is all this exclusive of the work of the provinces?


Arthur Meighen: Yes. There has been a little settlement under special Act in Ontario and there have been two purchases made by British Columbia, but I do not know whether any permanent settlement has taken place in British Columbia or not. What I speak of is of course solely a Federal work.


Edmond Proulx: Are those who have received aid from the province of Ontario receiving aid from this Government too?


Arthur Meighen: At' Kapuskasing?


Edmond Proulx: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: No, we have nothing to do with that. I stated that fhe board advance, in respect of land security, up to $4,500, and up to ninety per cent of'the appraised value of the land. We have povrer in certain special cases defined by the Act to advance up to one hundred per cent. We have done that in a limited number of cases. I have before me the exact figures and I think I shall give those figures to the House. The number of cases in which the whole amount has been advanced aggregate 801. I desire here to express the opinion that Parliament was well advised in very strictly limiting the number of cases where the board was empowered to advance up to one hundred per cent.


Mr. NESBITT:: May I ask what the exceptions were?


Arthur Meighen: They can only be judged by the proportion of salvage cases that apply to those who got one hundred per cent, who invested nothing themselves, as against the number of salvage cases where they advanced ten per cent.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I have reference to the exceptions to the one hundred per cent.


Arthur Meighen: The salvage cases so far segregate 1.71 which is, as all will readily agree, a very small proportion. Of course in those cases it is only as respects some that there is any loss. The board is usually able to turn over the land to another soldier at what may be against the prop-

erty in the hands of the defaulting man. Now, of that 1.71 per cent-that is to say 261 cases in all-forty of those' were of the men who did not put up any advance themselves. . In other words five per cent who put up no advance have failed, but of those who did put up an advance, the proportion is only 1.71 per cent. I should say in this connection that of the salvage cases, the larger proportion are of those who settled before the Act of a year ago was passed, and before the system of qualification that now prevails was established. That is to say, when any man was ready to go and get a soldier entry, even when he had no other qualification than the fact that he was a returned man, he was entitled to soldier entry. The proportion of salvage cases among that class has been large, and has enhanced the percentage that is now disclosed as applying to the whole body of the returned men.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What I asked the minister was, where the exception was made to the one hundred per cent? .


Arthur Meighen: In practice we have applied it only to those married men who had long and successful previous farming experience in Canada-that was the definition given in the Act. To that we have restricted ourselves; and I think I might even go further than I went before and say that if we were entering upon the policy again it would be in the interest of the returned man, as well, as in the interest of the country, to insist in virtually every case upon a stake being had in the property by the returned man himself.
There are some further details in connection with loans that would be of interest. Notwithstanding the fact that twenty-five years at five per cent is allowed the men for repayment, we have already received repayment in full in no less than sixty-four cases.


Mr. REID (Mackenzie):: May I ask in
what provinces these repayments have been made?


Arthur Meighen: In British Columbia
six. In Alberta, twenty-five-most of them are in Alberta.


John Flaws Reid: Hear, hear.


Arthur Meighen: In Saskatchewan, six;
and in Manitoba, three. Alberta is distinctly in the lead.
In the determination of the qualification of applicants, eigthy-three per cent of all those who applied were found to be qualified in the year 1919. In the present year up-to-
[Mr. Meighen.l
date, that percentage has been reduced to sixty-five per cent, showing that the standard of the applicant is gradually diminishing, which of course was only to be expected. The better men-the men who had set their heart upon agricultural pursuits- were early on the ground and anxious to take advantage of the 'Act. Consequently it is only reasonable that we might now look forward to a gradual contraction of the rapidity of the financial commitment involved in the Soldier Settlement policy. We grade the men when they apply. The man who has had ten years' experience, and is otherwise qualified, is graded in Class A; the man with five years' experience, and otherwise qualified, in Class B; the man with two years' experience, and otherwise qualified, in Class C; and the man with one year's experience, and otherwise qualified, in Class D. In every case of a married man, the board insists on a signed consent by his wife that she is herself desirous of taking the responsibility that appertains^to the farm-of going upon a farm to live. Everything connected with the prospect of that man's success is canvassed, and upon all the facts taken together the board decides upon his qualification.
Mr. BELAND; The fact that a young man has been on a farm since his youth is a sufficient qualification to place him in the first class, I understand?


Arthur Meighen: Yes, provided he is not physically disabled, or has not since acquired such habits as are foreign to the industry, and that a man must not have if he is ever going to succeed upon a farm. For example, if he has become a loafer or a drunkard, then it will not do for him merely to say, " Well, I was brought up on a farm "; he must otherwise be qualified in the elements that make for success.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Is the applicant- subjected to an examination?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Henri Sévérin Béland: In every case?


Arthur Meighen: There is not a medical examination in every case.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I mean any examination as to his ability.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, he has to apply
personally and answer a series of questions, or a written questionnaire. Then subsequently he must come in person before the qualification board. The plan that he has

in mind for farming purposes is reviewed. He is questioned as to what he intends to do, what stock he intends to get, what character of land he intends to procure, and what he expects that land to produce; in general, that man's practical knowledge of farming is thoroughly reviewed by the qualification board.
Now, in connection with the purchase of stock and equipment, and loans against stock and equipment, some interesting facts may be adduced. Before doing so, let me say that the total before mentioned gives an indication of the prices paid for land in the various provinces.
Up to the date of the calculations in this report 108 purchases had been made in Prince Edward Island involving an expenditure of $267,464. The average .size of tihe farms' purchased varied, being in Prince Edward Island 110.04 acires, in Nova iScotia 117 acres; in New Brunswick 145.04 acres; in Quebec 129 acres; in Ontario 136.03 acres; in Manitoba 169.06 acres; in Saskatchewan 185 .acres; in Alberta 187 acres; in British 'Columbia 60 acres. The average price per acre was: Prince Edward Island $22.42; Nova Scotia $21.40; New Brunswick $16.69; Quebec $24.42; Ontario $33.02; Manitoba $22.31; Saskatchewan $18; Alberta $18.13; British (Columbia $53.80
Now I will give some details of the stock and equipment purchased and the prices * laid. The money invested in implements out of loans advanced by the Government aggregates $4,777,418.77,-that, representing the value. Tiie saving to the settler by reason of the arrangements made by the Board with manufacturers has totalled $403,768.52; in other words, the settler would have had to pay that much more had he bought for cash other than through the board. The total investment in clearing and breaking land, drainage, labour, fertilizing, and crops amounts to $273,487.06. The total investment in equipment bought secondhand and not through the board is $1,319,406. The total investment in live stock i,s $5,747,108.98.
Up to the 31st of March last the board had supervised the purchase, or had purchased direct and turned oveir to the settler, 20,718 horses, which were bought at an average price per head of $151.65; it bought 20,390 cows ait an average price of $80.53; 15,671 other cattle at an average price of $43.62 ; 5,381 sheep at an average price of $12.58; 7,634 swine at an average price of $14.97; 92,723 poultry at an average price of $1.05.
Mr. 'SUTHERLAND: How was the saving of $400,000 odd affected on the purchase of implements?


Arthur Meighen: In the case of implements, harness, hardware, lumber, building material, fencing, household equipment, feed, fruit trees and plants, and dairy and poultry supplies, the board effected arrangements with the manufacturers whereby on the order of the board, they would deliver to any settler under the Act any of these articles at a certain specific advance on the cost of manufacture, certain defined rates being arrived at, which of course placed the articles in the hands of the settler at a very much reduced price. The percentage allowed varies in respect to the different articles. The settler places his order, ihe is charged with 'the amount, and he knows what he is getting, for he himself chooses the article. The board settles with the company at the end of each period, and ,so knows exactly what the saving is in respect to each class of article.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: Does the report indicate the advance allowed to the manufacturers in each case?


Arthur Meighen: I have not the figures before me now. I gave particulars of the arrangement and the percentage charged a year ago. The percentage is very small indeed. I have not those particulars at hand, but I can readily get them.


Edmond Proulx: Were the horses, cattle
and poultry purchased through agents or through officers of the department?


Arthur Meighen: Two methods are followed. The board sometimes buys itself and at other times it buys through the best experts it pan secure. If an advance in price is anticipated the policy of the board is to secure a supply so that the settlers whom the board has to take care of will not be caught at the advanced price. The board has bought large numbers of horses and cows in that way. But of course no settler has to buy from the board; he comes and makes his choice. The board sells to the settler at the price it has paid, and all it seeks is that it may come out of the transaction without loss. If, however, the settler chooses to buy for himself, he is at liberty to do so, but the board undertakes, through its field supervisors operating in every district, to see that the settler is not taken advantage of by speculators who know values better than he does. In a word, they not only pass upon the extent of equipment that the settler is to get, but
REVISED EDITION*

they pass as well on the value; they must be satisfied that he is getting value for his money. Let me emphasize this point, that in every single case the settler's will has to cover the transaction. He is driven into nothing; he decides himself both as to the land and stock. The board never exercises its activity except to reduce the extent of the purchase, but very often it does so, and almost always successfully.


Mr. W. H. WHITE:: Then the minister claims a saving to the settler by his purchasing through the board?


Arthur Meighen: Undoubtedly in respect to implements.


William Henry White: I was speaking of live stock.


Arthur Meighen: We rather think so or the settler would not buy through us; but we cannot say, because we simply sell at the price we pay.


Mr. SINCLAIR (Queen's):: When you
buy through experts do you add a commission?


Arthur Meighen: I do not think any
commission has ever been paid. There is certainly none paid in respect to land purchases.


John Ewen Sinclair: But in regard to live stock?


Arthur Meighen: I do not think so. If
I am wrong I will advise the hon. gentleman later.


Edmond Proulx: Does the minister know
the average age of those horses?


Arthur Meighen: I do not; but I will
guarantee they are a lot younger than the hon. gentleman.


Edmond Proulx: I hope they are younger than those purchased in Nova Scotia in 1914.


Arthur Meighen: Doubtless they are, because I need scarcely intimate to hon. members that the purchase of land, and horses, and cattle in every district in Canada is, politically, a rather perilous enterprise, as well as perilous from the business standpoint. No doubt mistakes, would be made, but as respects horses and cattle at all events, the purchases have been of such a minor character that no such case as my hon. friend has referred to has come to my knowledge. The operations have now been proceeding for about fifteen months, so I do not think that any very
,
venerable horses have come into the possession of the board.


Edmond Proulx: I am glad that the board has acted prudently and has not made any such purchases of horses as were made by the Department of Militia in Nova Scotia in 1914.


Arthur Meighen: I do not know about the Militia purchases, but I do know that nobody ever acted more prudently than the board has acted in this regard; and that ought to satisfy the hon. member.


William Henry White: A great deal of stock is sometimes lost in the West during a severe winter such as we had last year. Because of a shortage of feed, or for other reasons, a man might find himself in the spring without enough horses to go on with. I am speaking of the man who has received the maximum allowance for equipment. Is any special provision made for such cases?


Arthur Meighen: No special provision is made; the Act does not permit any. Under the Act we cannot advance any man more than $7,500, and we never do. In the early days of the operation of the Act certain of the men in the first instance secured the whole amount, and where they encountered in the 'first year a total failure-and particularly in Alberta and Southern Saskatchewan, by reason of the drought, there necessarily have been total failures-the board has been powerless to come to their aid in the way of a further loan. The board has, however, kept as closely as possible in touch with all these men, and by means of the promotion of sales of stock and equipment which under the strained circumstances the men could do without, and the application of the proceeds to the purchase of seed or feed, it has managed to carry these men along. Even then there may be some cases of very great hardship, but we have reports from our Edmonton office, which is in the district most liable at present to cases of distress, to the effect that only a very small number indeed will not be able in some way to pull through. It would be a help to these men, of course, to extend the maximum, but no matter what the extent of the loan may be, you are bound to have still other cases for extension. On the whole, the scale of the systems that this Parliament determined upon in respect of the returned soldier farmer was a generous scale and I have not felt like recommending that in any case the maximum should be exceeded.


William Henry White: When I inquired whether any provision was made for the relief of these people I had in mind action taken by the department, particularly in the way of permitting a reduction of stock.


Arthur Meighen: Oh yes, we do that and have done it. I have stated that there are now 674 men in actual training. Many, of course, have taken their training and are now upon the land. The course pursued is this: training centres have been established at several points in Canada: at Kenitvile, N.S., Fredericton, N.B., Lennoxville, P.Q., Elkhorn, Man., Bed Deer, and Crossfield, Alta., Agassiz and Matsqui, B.C. At these farms men who are otherwise qualified but who lack experience are first given a month's training in actual farm work. These are not experimental or fancy farms; they are simply operated in the way that the soldier is expected to operate his land after he gets it. He gets the rudiments of farm work in order that he may be of some use when hired to work on land. He is then told to go out and find a place on a farm. He is assisted to get a suitable location and he is expected to put in approximately a year's work. After that, if he so desires and if it is felt he needs it, he may get two months' special
4 pm. training in an agricultural college. For this purpose we utilize five of the provincial colleges: one at Winnipeg, the Agricultural College at Guelph, and the agricultural colleges at Saskatoon, Fort William, and Matsqui, B.C. That constitutes the entire range of training that the men secure. While they are taking this training they are entitled to assistance to enable them to conserve the money they have saved against the purchase of their land later. Single men are allowed $10 a month, with free tuition and board, and married men are' allowed $35 a month, free tuition and board, and, if they have children, $6 for one child and $5 for each subsequent child, with an aggregate maximum of $80. When the men go upon the farm, they get, of course, farm wages. At this stage single men get no further assistance, but married men are allowed $20 per month while they are working on a farm, and, if they have children, $6 for the first child, and $5 for each other child. The committee will observe that the scale of assistance is considerably lower than the scale which obtains in the case of civil reestablishment, for the very obvious reason . that men who come in under the soldiers' settlement plan are able-bodied men, and men who later get a very considerable 136J
measure of assistance from the State. The man who comes under the Department of Soldiers' Civil Be-establishment gets more because he is disabled and because he does not get special assistance after he is located in employment.


Mr. GLASS:: The allowance made to men who, after their training, are employed on farms, is not reduced by reason of any amount earned while so employed?


Arthur Meighen: No, they get their wages besides, the best they can secure. The country has spent $82,457.01 in respect of allowances to men in training. The estimate for next year looks forward to an expenditure of about the same amount.
Now, there is what is known as the Home Branch of the department. This branch is presided over by Mrs. Muldrew and has to do particularly with the giving of assistance to the wives of settlers. Our women officers do not undertake to visit all the wives of settlers. It is the duty of the field supervisors of the department who are attached, to each district office and who are skilled! agriculturists, to visit all the men, particularly those who graded low, in D, C, and B grades, and help them by advice and suggestion, report upon their progress and upon the condition of their stock and equipment, and make any other suggestions that will enable the board to be helpful to them. These field supervisors visit the men regularly at least once in six months. As time goes on and the success of each settler becomes assured the supervision need not be so frequent; we are already reducing these visits where we find that the men do not need such close contact on the part of the board's officers. We hope to be able to reduce this service more rapidly as time goes on. But for the present these field supervisors visit and render assistance to every man settled under the board; for the purpose not only of helping them but of protecting the board's security.
Otherwise we would not be able to follow our security and protect ourselves against men who are not making a success. These men, reporting to the various ofiSces, give an account also of the home conditions that prevail in the case of each settler. They frequently come across cases of distress, lack of knowledge of home economics and the management of a house, and in those cases they make it their business by circular and by visits from home counsellors-women under the charge of Mrs. Muldrew-to give help where it is absolutely needed by the wives of these men. They get info touch

with women's organizations in the district, Red Cross societies and patriotic organizations, and through those instrumentalities they have been able to render very material help to many a distressed wife of a settler. They also conduct training classes for these women who in the first instance are not making a success of the management of their home. In the province of Saskatchewan 250 women have taken the course in Home Economics that is provided by the Home Branch. There are 20 at present attending the school for that purpose in Prince Edward Island. We purpose doing this work in all the provinces.
I have followed the operations of the board pretty completely so far as they have proceeded. Last year in many parts of the West, and that is where the great body of our settlers are, there were areas where, owing to the accumulated blights of different kinds that all seemed to come at once, it was impossible to raise any crop at all. As a consequence, the proportion of collections was not as good as it would have been in a normal year. Last year, of course, was the first that any payments became due, and [DOT]of the money that became due, $34,307 in all, $11,911.71 was paid, and extensions were granted and rearrangements made covering $12,623. At the present time there remains only $7,693 not taken care of. It was not anticipated that we would secure in the very first year any larger proportion of our payments than we did. Indeed, if the Act were to be drawn again, I would be disipo&ed to postpone for a little longer period all payments other than interest. However, this sum has been returned and some have met with such conspicuous success that they were able to pay up in full at once. Others have paid more than they were called upon to pay. Of the number who paid up in full something over half, by reason of one accident or another, had sold their land, but at prices which fully discharged their obligation to the board. The estimate for the year to come is fixed at $50,000,000. That is less than the commitments of last year. It is, however, more than the actual money disbursed last year. We hope with this provision to settle next year between 15,000 and 16,000 persons. Furthermore, we hope to get along with $2,000,000, outside of the money we lend, it being intended to invest $48,000,000 in loans. We hope that $2,000,000 will take care of all the training undertaken by the board, take care of the staff of the board . situate in every part of Canada, take care also of the cost of supervision and the cost of the loans, because the board in. every
TMr. Meighen.]
case pay the appraisal costs and all legal costs that ordinarily are charged against a borrower. Everything but the $2,000,000 will be actually invested in returnable money, and the $2,000,000 itself is invested in advantages which the soldier receives.
The cost to the Government for soldier land settlement for the last fiscal year will amount to approximately $5,000,000. The country loses two years' interest on the stock and equipment, loses also the margin of interest between the rate at which the board loans the money and the rate the Government pays to secure it, loses also the cost of training and of administration. On the amount of money expended last year, this would mean a net unreturnable outlay of about $5,000,000. For next year it will be about the same. There is no possibility of this money being. returned to the treasury of Canada. There is, indeed, no possibility, in view of what we know of human nature and of business generally, of the Teturn of all the money that is loaned. There will undoubtedly be losses; there has been a small amount of loss already, and there will be more; but a survey of the operations of the year and an estimate of the lessons learned by the year's operations and the improvements we can make as a result, lead me to the opinion that the proportion of losses will not in the aggregate be a serious one, that it will be, at all events, very much smaller than the great advantages which the country undoubtedly will secure, not only by the increase in the production of these first essentials, but by the addition to the stable unwavering section of our population of so large a proportion of the returned men of Canada.
The Act in its first drafting, and as it stands to-day, admitted to its benefits returned soldiers in England of the army of Great Britain, as well as the army of France, of the United States, and our other Allies. We have sought first, however, to take care so far as we could of the unexpected avalanche of applications that came from our own men. The difficulty of extending the organization rapidly enough and yet at the same time maintain such a degree of efficiency that there might not be disappointment and undue delay to our own men, was such that the doors were opened very gradually and very slowly to the admission of any others. Last year, however, we established in England a board of two, whose duties were to select from applicants of the British army those who had sufficient money and sufficient stamina, so far as that could be gauged, and the right kind of experience

that would make them the best prospects at least, of success in Canada. The instructions given to that board were to exercise the greatest care and caution, to err on that side, if any, so that the doors of the system in Canada would not be flooded with those who ultimately had to be denied, because of lack of experience in this country-a primary and indispensable necessity- and perhaps turned back again to their native land. We have sought to let these men know right at their homes before they start what is required in money and experience, the type and class of man that is required, and the training that is required, for we fix a period of two years in the case of all outside inexperienced men. We sought to bring home to them all these requirements at home, so that they would not launch upon journeys and expenses that would land them nowhere in the end. There are innumerable details to which I might allude, but already I have, detained the committee and I reserve the rest for such questions as hon. members may see fit to ask.


Samuel Francis Glass: I understood the minister
to say that the loan was on a 5 per cent basis, amortising in twenty-five years, and that 64 of the loans had already been repaid in full. I assume the department has no objection to the loan being repaid in full at any time.


Arthur Meighen: Not at all.


Samuel Francis Glass: Suppose a soldier has occupied his farm,for one, two, or three years and made all the payments required by the regulations-If he wishes to sell his farm, is there any provision by which he can do so and have the purchaser assume the obligation he is under.


Arthur Meighen: He can with the approval of the board. I may say that the total number of employees of the board is 1,321. Of these, 962 are males, of whom 876 are returned soldiers, or a total of 91 per cent of the male officials of the board. We have sought to confine ourselves to the utmost of our powers to returned soldiers, except in the case of appraisers. In connection with appraisers we find it impossible to follow the rules to the same extent, for reasons which are no discredit to the returned soldiers, but which are obvious. We had to get men of long experience in actual farming work, and as a general rule it was impossible to secure that class among the returned men, although we did in many instances. But apart from appraisers, 91 per cent are returned men. We have been assisted in every possible way by the Civil
Service Commission, and as time went on we were able to co-operate more efficiently and expeditiously with them. Long delays took place at first and we had to dispense rather ruthlessly with the services of many. The operations of the board have suffered at various points by reason of the inefficiency of some men secured, but by adopting a policy that perhaps appeared harsh at the time we believe we have been able to evolve an organization which is now as nearly efficient as possible. It is not 100 per cent efficient, for nothing can be that; but at least it possesses more than average efficiency as a government organization, and at the same time it is predominantly composed of the returned men themselves.


Mr. PBOULX:: Are the valuators paid
by salary or commission?


Arthur Meighen: They are paid by salary; we pay no commissions. I can scarcely conceive of anything that would more strikingly manifest folly than to pay valuators
on a commission basis.


Edmond Proulx: I have been informed that they were being paid on commission. I was told that in certain places the prices that were paid were exorbitant, and my information is that in one place the Settlement Board paid $7,000 for a farm valued at $3,000.


Arthur Meighen: Can the hon. gentleman favour me with the names of the place and of the parties??


Isidore Proulx: It does not happen to he in my county. I got the information from a colleague and I shall ask him to give me the particulars. He is not in the House at present.


Arthur Meighen: A great many cases have been presented to me of just such definiteness as the one mentioned by my hon. friend.


Mr. ANDREWS:: I desire to congratulate the minister on his very clear presentment of a most remarkable achievement. One hears very often at the present time that the Union Government is reactionary and that it is working in behalf of the big interests, and so forth; but in this case at least I think that the Liberal members of this House as well as the country at large may congratulate the Government on having enacted the most advanced legislation that has ever been put on the statute hook in this country since Confederation. For the first time in the history of Canada the funds of the State have been loaned

to individuals for the development of the resources of the country. The machinery and everything in connection with this work are absolutely new. Everything had to be created to meet the new conditions, and of course under the circumstances there was no past experience that could serve as a guide. That necessarily had to be learned. While the Soldiers' Settlement Board has been operating in every province in Canada, indeed almost in every constituency, I imagine that its shortcomings and its mistakes must be very well known to the members of this House, and those who know of any mistakes should avail themselves of the present opportunity to bring them to the attention of the minister. So far as I am concerned, I am not disposed to be critical but Tather the reverse. At our convention recently we drew up a long list of suggestions, very few of which are concerned with the general principle of the work, being almost entirely devoted to matters of detail. I think that these suggestions might well go before the committee on Re-establishment which is now in session, rather than before this committee. There is one suggestion in particular, however, which I would direct to the attention of the minister,' and that is in regard to the advantage of insuring the men so that there might be no possibility of failure on their part to repay the money loaned them. The suggestion reads:
That the board insure every married settler, who borrows from the Soldiers' Settlement Board, in an amount equal to his loan and thus secure itself against loss, and, at the same time, provide the dependents of the deceased soldier with an equity for their maintenance.
This suggestion, I think, is one that should be given careful consideration, and I therefore bring it to the attention of the minister.


Arthur Meighen: The suggestion, I presume, relates to life insurance.


George William Andrews: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: Representations have been made to me from other sources that it would be advantageous to have a system of life insurance established for the protection of the board, and while I have not yet discussed the subject with the board, I intend to do so.


Mr. CALDWELL:: I desire to make a few remarks on this subject, especially in view of the fact that I was very closely connected with the operation of the Soldiers' Settlement Act in the province from which I come. I was Chairman of the Qualifica-

tion Board before whom the soldiers in my part of the country came for examination in regard to tiheir fitness as settlers, and shortly after the wonk began I was made a member of the Loan Committee. I want to speak particularly in regard to the price per acre of land in the different provinces. I observed that some hon. members smiled when they heard what the price per acre was in New Brunswick, and I am inclined to think they got a wrong impression in that respect. Perhaps no ope realizes better than I that the statement is correct, because I was one of the board who decided what should be paid. I realize this probably more than anybody else because I was one of .the board who decided what farms should be bought and what we should pay for them. The soldier selected a farm and the inspector inspected it and put a valuation upon it. We did not in every case pay what the valuator said -it was worth. We even turned down a number of farms that the farm inspector said were good value at the price asked for them. That is the treason why the prices were less per acre in New Brunswick than in some other provinces. But we estimated the value of these farms on the production basis. If a farm would not produce enough to enable the settler to sustain his family and to give him a pretty fair chance of making his payments the board asked the soldier to select another farm. In -a great many oases the farms were good but were top heavy with buildings. We realized that the soldier could not make any money out oi the buildings and while they would be a good investment for the man who had the money to pay for them we did not encourage soldiers to burden themselves with such farms. We refused different farms that were top heavy with buildings. That is another reason why our price per acre is smaller than in other provinces where they purchased farms with better buildings. I know that farms were sold to private individuals, cash down for a price that we said the soldier could not pay and still I believe we were right. When* the purchase was made by a man who had the money to pay for the farm and the buildings, there is no doubt that he made a good trade but there is a great difference between a man going on a farm and going info debt for it and a man who has money to pay for it.
I had hoped that a Bill would have been brought down by the minister to extend the time for repayment of the advance on stock and equipment for a longer period. I think the period shouild be longer. Hoav-

ever, I suppose we should be grateful for small favours. I understand you extend the time for two years?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.
IMr. OA'LDWELL: I do not think that as sufficient but .still there is nothing to prevent this House from extending the time further if it is found necessary, and I think at will be found necessary. I think the payment per year that the soldier will have to make on $2,000 worth of stock and equipment will be $380?


Arthur Meighen: Yes, I think so.
Mr. CAiLDWELL:	The payment on the
farm would be $860 or $875 a year. It will be upwards of ten per cent on the whole investment of $8,000. I believe the minister said they would only advance $7,500 'although the .maximum is $8,503 iif the settler wants $1,000 more for permanent improvements.
In regard to the payment for both farm and the stock and equipment, I believe they have a pretty good plan worked out and that it is being well carried out. I do not think they could have devised a better method. I heard an hon. gentleman while the minister was speaking, say that it would be a peculiar thing if there were no graft in connection with buying so much loose stuff. I do not think there is any possibility of graft in this respect. The inspector goes out to inspect the stock and to say whether it is worth what the soldier pays for it. The cheque in payment of the purchase price is made payable directly from the board to the person that the stock is purchased from. The man who does the buying does not handle any of the money. I believe that is a wise method.
I, like the hon. member for Winnipeg ((Mr. Andrews), feel like giving the Government every credit for this Act. I believe that it is a good thing and that it serves a good purpose. I believe that it will put returned soldiers into civil life who otherwise would not be able to establish themselves under suoh favourable conditions. 1 hope the time for repayment will be extended if necessary and I feel sure it will be. The hon. member for Winnipeg (Mr. Andrews) made a suggestion with regard to insuring the settlers and I think that would be a wise provision. However, I do not believe that the board or the Government or the country takes any risk of losing anything by this transaction. The settler pays ten per cent of the purchase price down. He must do that. If he dies next year the Government has the property absolutely
together with the ten per cent of the price which the settler has paid down. If he makes his payment for five years he will have paid approximately one-third of the purchase price and the Government still absolutely own the property beoause the .soldier has no claim against it until it is fully paiid for. I think there is very little chance of the Government losing through this scheme but I think that as an extra safeguard and as a protection to the settler's family he should be insured. If the settler dies the board will have to take the farm over and it may not be able to realize as much at forced sale as it otherwise would. You cannot sell a property at farced sale for all it is worth. Iin that case the family might be destitute and if the Government should insure the settler it would be a protection to themselves as well as to the soldier's family.
The method of paying for the farm is the same as the method for paying for the stock and machinery. Ordinarily you cannot buy a farm or anything else without paying a commission to somebody but the Government brought in an Act which was passed by Parliament making it a criminal offence to accept a commission on any property sold to a returned soldier. That was a wise provision. We had a case in New Brunswick where a real estate man tried to sell a farm to a returned soldier. He had asked the soldier to make a deposit of $300. Our committee turned down the sale, we did not buy the farm and we had some trouble to get the money back from the real estate man. If we had not read the Act to him and shown him that it was a criminal offence it is doubtful if the man would have got his money back. I believe that the real estate men undertook to corner the farms that we offered for sale in order that they might get their commission when these farms were sold. This Act headed them off and it was very necessary to have such a protection. The tendency of the time is to make all you can out of every opportunity that presents itself, these real estate men were legitimately in the business to sell farms and while it is legitimate under ordinary circumstances to. sell real estate for .a commission I think it was a wise thing to make it an offence to collect a commission on farms sold to returned soldiers.


John Flaws Reid: Mr. Chairman, I wish to make a few remarks on this very important matter. I am sure that every member of the House was pleased when the minister told us that in many cases the

soldier made a ten per cent deposit when his farm was purchased. I gather from that that it is partly on account of the excellent work done by the -qualification board. I believe they have been hand picked.
The explanation of that is this: the soldier farmer who managed to get through without putting down his ten per cent perhaps worked a little on the sympathies- of the qualification board, because after all we are all human,
I want to make this further remark: If I caught the minister's words aright he spoke about doing away with the qualification board. If I am wrong in that understanding I want to be corrected.


Arthur Meighen: We are, where we have found it possible to use the services of our own officers. We are not doing that everywhere; it all depends on circumstances. I would be compelled to mention instances to make clear what I say. We have had difficulties in connection with the working together of the board and the committe in certain points; and we have found we can work more economically through our own officers who have proven at that particular point to be thoroughly qualified as qualification men, and not have any qualification committe at all. We save a lot of expense that way, a very great deal of expense. But we never do it unless our men at that point have been tried by the test of experience and have proven true. We could not move very rapidly in that direction, but wherever we know that our men who are on our regular staff are qualified then we rely on that staff alone. It is a proper principle if we can get to it, -but- we will have to get to it slowly.


John Flaws Reid: It is not my intention to debate this point with the minister, but the success that has been achieved in the past up to the present time, is, I think, greatly to the credit of the qualification board; and it may be a "penny wise and pound foolish " policy to do away with a part of the machine which has been so- very instrumental in attaining that success.
I agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Caldwell) that the Act is a good one, and has worked out well; but there is an old saying that very often the man behind the gun is the best part of it, and I am of opinion that a great deal of credit is due fo the worthy chairman of the Soldiers' Settlement Board. I believe that he has slept with the Act and thereby has made its administration a success. If is not a very easy matter to hand pick men and loan .money belonging to the State, and to say to them-as an in-

dividual would in the case of an ordinary business transaction-" You must make a success of this." The common tendency in the case of a transaction such as this, where money is being borrowed -from the State, is to say: " It does not matter much whether it is a failure or not

the Government has to pay the expense."
I am very glad to know that such a large percentage of our men have made good. I would ask the minister now to give the committee this information:	What is the
number of soldier farmers who were on the land, say on the 1st November, who have wintered on that land?


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The number who have
gone through the winter on the land?


Arthur Meighen: Does the hon. member mean the number of men who have gone on the land up to November last?


John Flaws Reid: The number of soldier farmers who went on to the land and who have wintered on the land.


Arthur Meighen: It is practically the
same as the figures I gave, 15,234 up to the 21st March. Very few have gone on since November. They start in the spring, in the month of April, and from that time until the fall they go out on the land and stay there over the winter. They do not, however, go on the land between November and March.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK:: As the one who gave his benediction to this scheme last year, perhaps the committee will permit me a word or two in hearty appreciation of the most satisfactory and lucid statement which we have just had from the minister. As years advance on one, one naturally becomes of a more pacific and less militant type, and I find more interest in constructive politics of this kind than in the fierce clashes of party warfare. So that it is a personal pleasure to me to hear a statement from a minister who I cannot-not now- always support, in which I find everything to commend and nothing to criticise.
I am naturally, Mr. Chairman, and the committee will pardon me, if I say it, proud of the province from which I come. The figures about that province, good as I know it to be, astonish me though I do not know iwhy they should. Alberta led in recruiting in war; she leads in soldier settlement on the land in peace; and she leads in hustlers who pay the money back first. That province must, at some -time or another, have had a good education in patriotism, in agriculture, and in

hustling. The members from other provinces will pardon me for drawing attention to these facts: It is not by way of pride, but by way of trying to induce emulation in others and bringing other provinces up to the splendid position in which we find the good little province of Alberta.
The statement of the minister is a splendid advertisement of the magnificent resources of this great country. I was astounded myself to find that so many as sixty-four men had actually now paid back all they borrowed. It was rather a swift and staggering reply to some one who tauntingly said-when the minister was asked a few minutes ago how many years were to be given to the paying back- "Never." "Never," as I told a member the other day, is a long time; and it so happens that some people have already paid back all that they got. I repeat that is a splendid advertisement of this magnificent country. It is an advertisement -Which should be used in other countries of the earth to let them know what sort of a country -Canada really is.
I want to say also that the statement of the minister is a high tribute to the way in which the work of the Interior Department in its administrative capacity is carried on, and it is a tribute to the splendid qualities of the members of the Soldiers' Land Settlement Board. I have had considerable dealings-as I suppose all members of the House have had-with these gentlemen, and it is a pleasure to me to testify that they have the utmost capacity for hard work, they are extremely courteous in the reception of any suggestion, anxious to help and anxious to be helped; and they have, above all things, that enthusiasm which is always followed by hard work. And, the minister would be the first to agree with me that they have been of very great assistance to him in carrying out this Aot.


Arthur Meighen: Hear, hear.


Michael Clark: There are just one or two points that the minister mentioned which I should like to confirm his opinion upon. The board have got the right idea when they send men to work first on a farm. The way to learn to play cricket is to play it under a man who has played cricket before and who knows the game well; and the way to learn farming is to do actual farming and actual settlement work in Western Canada. It is the way I began myself eighteen and a half years ago; and I remember the pride with which at the en.l of my first day I received
the congratulations of the somewhat waggish old lady at the head of the family with whom I was staying, when she congratulated me that I at least knew the end of a cow by which it took its hay, and the end from which the milk was got. It was with very great pride that I achieved that distinction. I have done a little better since (that time.
Another point upon which I think the minister is to be congratulated is the fact that he and the board are giving a predominant chance to the citizens of our own country. I think there is a double reason, which will occur to the members of the committee, why that should be done. In the first place, our primary duty, as every one of us will agree-it is commonplace almost to say it-is to our own citizens; but in the second place, and perhaps more important [DOT] t is along that-line that we shall achieve the greatest success, because men who know something of Canada will naturally make better Canadian farmers; although I do hope that in time with the extension oi its operations an increasing number of British and French citizens from the Old Lands will be found working under this board.
Before I sit down I should like to give two warnings which may prove useful. There will be a great temptation to take a lenient view of applications for extra loans. We all feel very favourably towards the returned soldier, and when one receives a letter from a returned soldier asking for an increase in his loan, one's heart naturally goes out to him. But I should like to advise the board to look very carefully into such applications. After all, it is no misfortune to the man himself,- and the public interest has to be guarded,- to have "to face it stiffly" in the first years of his operations. Any one who has settled on the land in the West-and I am sure those hon. gentlemen opposite to me know that it is equally true of their forefathers who first settled in Ontario-had a stiff row to hoe in the early years, and it is because they had that the sons of Canada are the men they are to-day. I would therefore advise the minister to look carefully into these applications for extra loans, and not to let his heart run away with his head-always a very dangerous proceeding in matters relating to money.
Another warning I should like to make in this regard,-and it emphasizes the warning I have just uttered,-is that the success of this board in its speed will perhaps be greater in the early years than at any other period. I think the men whom one


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Mr. Chairman, I think the country is to be congratulated on the choice (of the chairman of this board; and I also think that the chairman is to be congratulated on the choice of his assistants. He has, I think, used every precaution that it was possible for him to use and still endeavour to carry out the intention of the Adt.
My experience is that there have been greater and more numerous failures among men going on farms without any knowledge of farming than among men entering any other line of business-and we all know there have been more failures in this country than in any other by reason of men taking up work that they had no knowledge of and in which they had to buy their experience. This particularly is the case in regard to farming.
I would like to give to the chairman one or two thoughts that have occurred to me in connection with this report. I am going to confine my remarks to Ontario. The

average price of land I see was $33. Unless most of these settlers Were put in the far north or in the uncultivated regions, the average price of land would denote that they had bought run-down farms. It is absolutely impossible for a man without means .to settle on such a farm and build it up inside of two or three years, and therefore he must have means enough to carry him over that period. I have no doubt- that the famis were purchased for real value, but i't would be a great mistake to purchase a farm because it is a cheap farm. It is far easier for a man to go on a farm in first-class condition, so far as buildings, fences, and fertility are concerned and make money from the start than to build up a run-down farm.
With reference to the purchase of cows, I notice that the average price paid in Ontario was $80. I am afraid that those cows could never be made to pay. In my judgment you cannot make a cow pay in Ontario at -the present time unless she yields 6,000 pounds of milk a year; and certainty such a cow cannot be bought for $80. It costs nearly as much to keep a poor cow as it does to keep the cow that is putting her feed into the pail, and this is the type of cow that is needed on the average dairy farm in this province. Of course, if a man is buying a cow for beef purposes it is not material whether she is a good milker or not; but df he is buying her for'dairy purposes, which is the principal business for which cows are kept in Ontario, then he needs a cow that will give 6,000 pounds of milk a year rather than a yield of only 3,000 or 4,000 pounds. In my section of the country for the last three years, speaking	roughly, good
registered cows have	sold at an
average price of from $120 to $180. If I were going to buy a cow to-morrow I would rather pay $200 for it than $80-that is, of course, provided I was satisfied as to the quality of the cow and her record. It is the poor cows that we are constantly turning out of our herds. Every year those who keep tab on what they are doing turn their poor cows over to the butcher, if they are straight, or sell them to their neighbours at the best price they can get for them, if' they are not straight. I repeat that the country is to be congratulated upon having at the head of this board a man who has done such admirable work and who, considering the probable applicants who might apply to go on the land for the purpose of getting the loan, has so wonderfully well protected the interests of

the country. I hope that he will continue in the same prudent, careful, cautious manner which has characterized his work in the past. If he does, I have no doubt that the scheme will be an entire success. I offer these remarks not by way of criticism, but simply because I think that the suggestions which I have made ought to be taken into consideration.


Mr. STACEY:: Perhaps it would not be out of place for a representative of another piovince which has received a large number of returned soldiers as settlers to say a word or two. I join most heartily with those hon. members who have extended hearty congratulations to the chairman of this board for the able and efficient manner in which this work has been conducted during the past two or three years. I would like to mention two points which, I think, have not been dealt with by hon. members who have spoken. First, with regard ito the attitude of the returned soldier .settler himself, I would not presume to speak for any other province than my own, but so far as my knowledge goes there is general satisfaction-I do not say universal satisfaction, because that would be impossible-but there is satisfaction on the part of the returned soldier, who now feels that he has a chance, and that, just as he made good overseas, it is now up to him to make good here. Generally speaking, I say, they are satisfied with their position and with the treatment accorded to them by the Government. A large number-it would be futile to make an estimate, nor is it within my province to do so-have good hope of success, and from all appearances a very large percentage of those who have settled upon the land will make good.
I wish to direct attention also to the work which has been carried on by Mrs. Muldrew, who is in charge of the home branch, and to the tact and wisdom manifested by her in soliciting and securing the co-operation of other women's organizations. The task which has been committed to Mrs. Muldrew is a difficult and. sometimes a very delicate one, but certainly it has been carried out with marked success, and as a result of wise and diplomatic management, the co-operation of individuals and organizations has been secured. On the whole, I think there is good ground for believing that this scheme will be highly successful from the standpoint not only of the country but also of the returned soldier; and that it will bring about increased production and general prosperity. If the scheme is as successful in the future as it
has been in the past, it will prove to have been the finest of its kind that has been initiated and carried out in any country affected by the war.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Together with some of
the hon. gentlemen of the Farmers' party with whom I sit this afternoon-temporarily only, I assure the minister-I congratulate the minister on his clear, lucid and interesting statement with regard to his policy and what I might call his very interesting experiment. I have 5 p.m. a few criticisms to offer on behalf of myself and others, and I make them in spite of the fact that the only criticism so far offered has been met by the minister with a reply which shows that he does not believe in the adage, " A soft answer turneth away wrath." I may also be excused, as my hon. friend (Mr. Proulx) has been, if I am somewhat indefinite in my statement. However, I conceive it to be my duty to make these few remarks and to offer a few criticisms.
To begin with, I suppose I should congratulate the chairman of the board, whose efforts have apparently met with satisfaction throughout the country. But I have this criticism to offer-and I am sure that the committee must be weary of hearing me offer this criticism in all departments -that unfortunately, so far as my knowledge goes, the chairman of this board, a board entrusted with the task of looking after returned soldiers and placing them on the land, is not himself a returned soldier. I do not need to elaborate this point; the principle that returned soldiers should be looked after by returned soldiers has been generally admitted by ministers and by members on both sides. I simply give it as my opinion that within the ranks of the Canadian Expeditionary Force it would have been quite possible to find a man as competent-though I do not doubt the high competence and managerial ability of the chairman-as the chairman himself.
Mr. NE'SBIlTT:	Possible; but do you
think it would have been probable?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Quite possible; even probable. I have heard the minister complimented on his report in that a certain number of these returned soldiers have been able to repay the money lent to them. I also congratulate the minister in that the money has been returned to him. But it would appear from the remarks made by two hon. gentlemen that these moneys were returned because the soldiers in question wrere enabled, through obtaining a

loan from the Government, to make a fortunate and lucky speculation. Now, if we are allowed to do that off the land, why should the Government not lend any of us city dwellers sufficient money to gamble on the stock exchange? We might make a fortune out of speculation and so be enabled to return the money to the Government.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: You might not, though.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: To my mind, the facts
stated by some of my hon. friends are the best arguments I have yet heard in favour of the famous Harry J. Flynn gratuity scheme. That is to say, lend a certain amount of money to a returned soldier and shortly afterwards he will be able to pay you back. The Government, having done that, congratulates itself on being the means of enabling certain soldiers to speculate on land and return the money which they had borrowed.
From what I have heard here this afternoon apparently a large number of soldiers have settled on land that had previously been occupied, I understand from my hon. friend (Mr. Caldwell) that in New Brunswick at any rate the farms purchased were as a rule farms that had already been occupied. Now if this scheme of land settlement is to be of any permanent use to the country, in my opinion we should make it a colonization scheme, not a scheme for placing soldiers on the land in order that other people occupying that land may come to the cities. That is how it would appear to have worked out in New Brunswick at any rate, and from the little knowledge I have of the scheme in Quebec I would think the same condition exists there. If this is not a colonization scheme, but simply a scheme for the advantage of certain returned soldiers, I say that all returned soldiers should be entitled to equal benefits under it-another argument in favour of the gratuity. In passing I might say that I have never been in favour of the gratuity, and I am not now, but the very reasons which the Government gives for congratulating itself might be used by those who do not favour its policy in urging their own claim.
I should also like to call the attention of the Government to some criticisms by a certain body favourably and generally known as the Great War Veterans' Association. This body is a very large and representative one, and its members are the people who are supposed to be benefited under this scheme. It is all very well for

members of the Blouse representing the agricultural classes to state that the scheme as a whole has worked well, and I am glad that the minister has been fortunate enough to receive their congratulations, as I am sure he is glad, but if this scheme does not meet with the approval of those presumed to be benefited under it, I think it * must lack something, and it is the duty of the minister and of the Government to see whether any remedy suggested cannot be applied. I had here a few moments ago, until my desk mate disappeared, a number of resolutions passed by the Great War Veterans' Association. However, I have in my hand a newspaper report quoting certain of these resolutions, as to which I think the minister should make some statement. The text of the resolution adopted by the Great War Veterans' Association in convention assembled reads in part as follows:
And whereas the present Soldiers' Settlement Act gives wide latitude in the promulgation of regulations to the Soldiers' Settlement Board;
And whereas said regulations have been, in many instances, unnecessaily rigorous and designed for idealistic conditions which do not exist;
And whereas, in many instances, hardship has ensued to our comrades by reason of the administration and general inefficiency of the Soldiers' Settlement Board;
And whereas said regulations, in many instances, break the pledges made to the soldier, while in the trenches, in regard to land settlement ;
Therefore be it resolved that the Great War Veterans' Association of Canada memorialize Parliament to entirely reorganize, after investigation, the present administration of the Soldiers' Settlement Board.
Before proceeding to the other resolutions I would ask the minister to tell the committee whether he has taken any steps to meet the wishes of the organized veterans with respect to reorganizing the Soldiers' Settlement Board, and if not, why.


Arthur Meighen: I have listened to the hon. member (Mr. Power) and particularly to his quotation from the resolution passed at a Great War Veterans' Association meeting demanding reorganization of the land settlement work. If my memory serves me correctly the resolution was moved by Mr. Dace, was it not?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Mr. Dace moved one of
the clauses of it- at any rate.


Arthur Meighen: It was moved by Mr. Dace, was it not?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: Shortly before it was
[DOT]moved, reorganization was already under way, and one of the first steps in that reorganization was the removal of Mr. Dace. iMr. Dace had been associated with, and I think he had been the head of, a real estate firm that had done a somewhat flourishing *business selling land to the returned men. That was in the days before the Act was passed preventing commissions. His activities were somewhat contracted when commissions were denied, but he still was in the insurance business, and being in that business and also in the soldiers' settlement organization, being a returned man, and being taken on chiefly for that reason, he managed to turn a Lot of the insurance to the firm of Dace & Company, or at least to the firm of which he was the head. Indeed, so anxious was he to do business that in some cases he placed insurance for soldiers on buildings where there were no *buildings at all. So we considered that about the first step in reorganization was to dispense with the services of Mr. Dace, and the resolution which the hon. member gives so much attention to followed very closely upon that dispensation.
An investigation, if I remember correctly, was also contemplated by the resolution. I might say that an investigation was proceeding at the time the resolution was moved, and we expect a report after no great length o.f time more fully disclosing just what activities were being carried on -activities that certainly were not in the interests of the returned soldiers, though possibly they were in the interest of Mr. Dace. I am afraid that some of the men present at that meeting whose motives were of the best, and who had no disposition to be unfair, were very much misled by speeches on the part o.f those who were most anxious to complain of a board that had not appreciated their services. Only for those speeches I do not think any such action would have been taken. I am very much of opinion that many of those present now believe that the resolution did not do very much credit to the association, and that it would have been better not to have passed it.
Referring to the remarks of my hon. friend (Mr. Nesbitt) it is true that the average price per animal for cows purchased does seem low, but that was not the average price in Ontario, but the average for Canada, and particularly as regards the West, where largely because of the failure of crops and the lack of feed cows went down to a pretty low figure.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I understood you to say "Ontario."


Arthur Meighen: If I said "Ontario" it was a mistake. There is the further factor that included in the term "cows" are heifers, which are not properly in that category. The chairman of the board! tells me, however, that they are embraced in that designation. As to prices in Ontario the average for the week ending 31st March was $106.26.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I may say that two-year-olds' often sell at higher prices than cows somewhat older, especially when they are in calf. It depends on the breeding; and three-year-olds, I think, are certainly counted valuable cows.


Arthur Meighen: Undoubtedly, the breeding will make up for years very often. But of the same breeding, a three-year-old is not so valuable as a four or five or six-year-old.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: They do not bring the
same money, whether they are counted more valuable or not.


Arthur Meighen: Conditions may have
changed, but that was the case some years ago. I wish to acknowledge on behalf of the ..chairman of the board, the well deserved marks of appreciation on the part of hon. members. The success of the soldiers' settlement work
and I think it has been a real success, though certainly not unqualified-is due to the chairman more than to any other man. The chairman and members of the board have all worked together well and efficiently, showing conspicuous ability and devotion to duty, which only a minister, I think, knows how fully to recognize. I ought to say here that the board has been very much assisted in various parts of Canada by hon. members of the House, and particularly by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Stacey), who spoke just a few moments ago. At a time when the mind of the soldier in this country was so agitated that anything like satisfaction to him was utterly out of the question, that hon. gentleman in his own province, where an abnormal number of soldiers had collected, rendered very great assistance in the way of explaining to the soldiers the plans and operations of the board, and generally helping the organization of the board in serving the returned men in that province.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: With reference to Mr. Dace, who as a matter of fact did move an amendment to the resolution referred to, I hardly

think it is fair for the minister to dismiss, as he has a resolution passed by a -body such as the Great War Veterans' Association at a meeting at which there were delegates from all over Canada. To say that because a man named Dace, of whose action the Government did not perhaps approve, had something to do with the consideration of a resolution passed; by this association, the resolution should not be deemed worthy of attention, is something I cannot understand. Let the minister remember that at that meeting there were representatives of some two or three thousand returned soldiers, and these men were not of such a character that they could be swayed by the speeches of one or two or three persons. As a returned soldier myself, I protest that the minister has no right to make the statement, or at least to insinuate, that because two or three men had personal grievances they were able, so to speak, to dragoon a convention such as this into accepting a resolution for which, according to the minister, they are sorry. I have been perhaps in as close touch as the minister with the returned soldiers' organization and I have not yet heard any member of that association express any sorrow in connection with the matter. The minister may probably have friend's who are more closely connected with this great body than I am and he may have heard from them, but I can assure him that I have a large number of friends in the rank and file of the association and not one of them has as yet attributed to those who had anything to do with the passing of the resolutions the motives which the minister seeks to attribute to them. I will go further. I do not know whether Comrade Drennan of British Columbia has had any trouble with the Soldiers' Settlement Board-he may have had-but he says that the Land Settlement scheme was merely a .scheme whereby the returned soldier must pay a stated amount to take up land. Comrade Mills of Winnipeg advocated a thorough investigation into the administration of the board, asserting that the local representative of the board in Winnipeg, paid by the Government, was charging irregular fees. I have not the pleasure of knowing the other comrades whom I have mentioned, but as regards Dr. A. Mackenzie Fortbes, of Montreal, who is well known to the majority of hon. members from Quebec, and who has a very high standing in his profession, I hardly think that even the minister himself will attribute to him any ulterior motives. Dr. Forbes made an impassioned address on the subject and concluded that the Gov-
ernment, in spite of the excellent provisions of the Land Settlement Act, had done nothing and that the soldiers had seen that they were not able to avail themselves of the provisions of the Act. The Act itself, he said, was good, but its administration had been an absolute failure. R. L. Cald-er also'' supported the plea for an investigation. This gentleman, I may say, is fairly well known in the city of Montreal. He said he had opened a special file in his office which contained nothing but tales of misery caused by the administration of the Land Settlement Act. He cited specific instances, one being that of an applicant for land who had been disqualified on the judgment of a broken-down journalist. I do not think that the minister -was -quite fair in dismissing the complaints of these men on the ground that -the mover of the resolution, or the amendment thereto, was a man who was himself dissatisfied with the administration of the board. It seems to me that these resolutions, coming from a body representative in itself, should have met with better treatment at the hands of the minister, and at the risk of having my hon. friend give me the same answer,
I will proceed to read another resolution.
I really think the minister should be asked to take these resolutions one by one and explain wihy they have not been carried, out, but since I do not intend to weairy the committee by repeating these one after the other, and since I may possibly expect from the minister some answer when I have got through the first one, perhaps I would do well to confine myself to two or three:
That all soldier settlers should be In possession of a copy of all agreements existing between the Soldiers' Settlement Board and themselves, immediately on the completion of said agreements, and that all such agreements should be completed immediately upon the transfer of title to the Soldiers' Settlement Board.
-Again :
That all applicants for loans he supplied at time of qualification with literature giving full particulars of liabilities that may he assumed and outlining the regulations of the Soldiers' Settlement Board.
Has the minister anything to s-ay with reference to thes-e resolutions?


Arthur Meighen: I did not really intend
to cut the hon. gentleman off with a sharp or warm answer. Nor did I have any similar intention in regard to the hon. member for Quebec when he put a question a few minutes before. As to the resolutions, every hon. member of this House must have respect for the returned man though he may -

have bad faults and may have failed in other respects. Nevertheless, he is a returned man. We must have respect particularly for resolutions passed by returned men, but, resolutions are, after all, only resolutions. What counts is facts. I do not see where one can spend any time usefully in meditating upon the terms of a resolution calling for reorganization and for dispensing with the services of the board. It is only a weariness to the flesh to meditate over those things. A resolution of consequence which would appeal to a .minister would be one designating cases or phases in respect to which the board have failed.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I expected the minister to say that.
Mr. iMEIGHEN:	Certainly, you would
expect any minister to say that. That is all really that 'counts. It is not opinions that count; it is work that counts; it is deeds. I am open to receive evidence of misdeeds, but until I receive evidence of misdeeds I would not he worthy of my position or of any position at all if I made people suffer because of opinions unsupported by evidence? Where is the hon. gentleman's evidence? It must still be at the back of his head. He has not even suggested any. He said that somebody made an impassioned speech. I have no doubt that that is true and that it would have been a great pleasure to have heard these gentlemen. But what did they say; what did they And out was wrong? Where is the weakness? Show that it is a weakness. That is all I am waiting for from the hon. member.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: 
Arthur Meighen: It looks suspicious.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The minister is a little
suspicious-I am glad to have that admission from him. The admission will no doubt be received with considerable pleasure by the Great War Veterans in his constituency that he is a little suspicious of the resolutions which they have passed. But the Great War Veterans' Association, suspicious though the minister is of them, must be regarded on the whole as being composed of fairly reasonable men and when they debate, as apparently they debated on this day, resolutions of this kind, they must have some facts with which to back them up. My view of the minister's duty is that he should immediately have taken cognizance of such a complaint and asked his department to investigate in so far as possible to ascertain whether there were otr were not any reasonable grounds for complaint. This resolution is only a portion of a long list of resolutions and in the long 'list of resolutions there are no doubt facts stated which would give the minister some light on the subject. Surely even though the minister does think that his department is absolutely perfect, he might have read these resolutions over. If he bad done,so he would have come to the conclusion that those who had passed these resolutions were not so full of admiration for his own virtue or that of his department as he may have imagined and that possibly there may be room for improvement. That is the spirit in which I am criticizing the minister. If there is room for improvement in his department it is demonstrated by his failure to listen and pay attention to the criticism that is made of his department. A moment ago I asked the minister what he had to say with reference to the two resolutions one of which distinctly asked for a copy of the .agreement and the other that the soldier settler should be able to obtain literature giving (full particulars of the liability which he'.assumes. That is an important point but the minister has not answered it.


Arthur Meighen: I have answered it.
They get it in every case but of course they cannot get it immediately. They get the money because the agreement cannot be fully completed and the amount of the money inserted in it until they get all their advances. The advances are often made progressively. When the loan is closed and the transaction completed every soldier is

given a copy of his agreement and that agreement discloses to him all his liabilities to the board, the dates of maturities and all the information that we have or he requires.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: How long may this progressive borrowing extend?


Arthur Meighen: Until the soldier gets
the full amount of his loan.
Mr, POWER:	How many years?


Arthur Meighen: It would be his own
fault if it were at all long. It might run to six weeks. It may not be his fault but .it is his choice. He is waiting until he gets goods that suit him but once he gets the loan and the agreement is completed he gets ia copy of the agreement.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: At what date did this system of giving the soldiers a copy of the agreement go into force?	.


Arthur Meighen: No, that has always
been in force.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Therefore there would be
no truth in the allegation contained in this particular resolution?


Arthur Meighen: I do not think there is any allegation. The resolution simply asks that the man be given a copy of the agreement. That has probably arisen from the fact that for quite a period he is without a copy of his agreement, but that is unavoidable until the agreement is completed. That is perhaps not fully understood and therefore there is a misapprehension which has given rise to the resolution.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I remember reading in a
newspaper, some time in the course of last week, of a case where a settler in the vicinity of Quebec was called before the police magistrate for having sold some of his stock. I am not familiar with the details of the case, but the plan of the defence was that he did not know what his rights were and that he had no agreement. The case occurred within the last ten days, but unfortunately I have not the newspaper clipping before me at the present time. The matter was before the court in the jity of Quebec, and I remember that Major John Roy was prosecuting for the board. The defence was that there was no agreement.


Arthur Meighen: 1 would presume the de-ence failed.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: No, I think the case was adjourned to permit of the production of further evidence on behalf of the Crown.

Some hon. MEMBERS : Carried.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: No. I thought some other member might have something to say, and I did not want to take up the time of the committee for the whole afternoon. But really, sitting as I am at the present time, with members of the Progressive party, I am becoming very talkative.


An hon. MEMBER:: You never did better.


An hon. MEMBER:: I should think they
would ask you to move on.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: There is another resolution to this effect:
That a sufficient staff of veterinary surgeons be employed by the Soldiers' Settlement Board, and that each settler, under the Soldiers' Settlement Board, be visited at least semi-annually by the representative of this veterinary staff, and all stock inspected and treatment administered, where necessary. All expenses in this connection to be borne by the Soldiers' Settlement Board.
May I ask the minister if this is the "home" treatment which we heard about a few minutes ago?


Arthur Meighen: The hon. member read a resolution-I never heard of it before-asking us to send out a veterinary surgeon every six months.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: To inspect the stock.


Arthur Meighen: Does the hon. member think that would be wise?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I do not know whether it would be wise or not. I am simply calling the minister's attention to the complaint of a large number of men that this is not done. I will not take it upon myself to go into each and every one of these complaints. Some of them may be purely local; some may have reference only to settlers in the Prairie Provinces and to conditions which do not exist in Quebec. I am not in a position here to judge as to these matters; I have not at my disposal the mass of evidence, or the staff at my disposal to collect all these facts, which the minister has. I am bringing this subject to the attention of the minister, and asking him if he has done anything with reference to it, or if he is willing to do anything. If he is not, let him say so, because personally it does not affect me in any way. I am not going on the land; I could not farm if I wanted to.


Arthur Meighen: 
Arthur Meighen: I may say that what is called for in that resolution is already the practice. The boards have discretion within the circumference of the Statute; we have no power to give them a discretion beyond the limit of the statute itself.


Mr. HALBERT:: If the hon. member (Mr. Power) who has just spoken has run out-


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Oh, no, I need a rest.


Robert Henry Halbert: -I rise at this time to compliment the board on the chairman that they have selected. I want to make this addition to what has been said because the chairman and myself happened to be boys together in Dufferin county; and as I have known him for some years you wall realize that we are not boys any longer. The remark has been made that the chairman has not had military experience, but I can testify that he has had farming experience. He has been brought up on and has worked on a farm, and I think that experience well qualifies him for this position. In my opinion the board is extremely fortunate in having as chairman a man with the experience and ability which Mr. Black possesses. Coming as we both do from DuffeTin county-which gives three members -to this Hous-e at the present time, although of course they do not all represent that riding here-I am very glad to bear that testimony to him. I also want to compliment the board on the very efficient w.ay in whidh they are buying the equipment for the soldiers-<the harness and so on. I also wish 'to compliment them on being successful enough to get manufacturers to sell their goods at a better price than that at which I could buy them. Therefore I think we should not leave all the flowers unltil after these men are dead and /then strew them on their graves.
The hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Michael'Clark) drew the attention of the minister to the necessity of acting carefully in granting increased loans. I am not



familiar with other farm lands, hut, those in Ontario are high at the present time. Some fault was found with the board at the commencement of the operations on account of their having bought poor farms, but that may have been when the man was in charge whom the hon. minister says is no longer connected with the board, and practically that trouble has been done away with. I think soldiers should be started on good quality farms. The judges to pick out these lands should be experts, because it would be unfortunate to get our returned men started on poor farms.
The hon. member from Quebec South (Mr. Power) referred to farms being bought from their owners who were retiring from farming. As far as my knowledge goes, it was not farmers who were retiring who were selling their farms, but rather farmers who were on small farms and w'ere desirous of buying larger farms, and therefore they were glad to sell their farms to the board. The reason I draw attention to the price of land, being high in Ontario, and to the subject of advancing more money for the purchase of such land, is that I believe we shall find the price of farm lands depreciate, as well as the price of stock, and the depreciation might eventually reach the point that, if the land was bought at too high a price the depreciation would eventually eat up the money the returned man had put into his farm. I agree with the member for Eed Deer that although those men may have to work as hard as our fathers did, it will give them a stiff upper lip and no doubt make better men of them.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I think we can well leave soldier settlement in the hands of the board when we have as its chairman the capable man who is now occupying that position.


Mr. DAVIS:: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that neither the minister nor the chairman of the board need any assurance from me of my interest in the work they are doing, nor of my appreciation of it. But perhaps because of that very interest and appreciation there are a few matters that I would like to ask their special consideration of. First, I am well aware from my personal contact with many of them that a number of settlers at the present time are not in a position to go on. In some cases it is true that is due to their own fault; they did not have means when they went on the land, they exhausted their loans, and the consequence is that unless they can get seed and feed, and, in some cases, even provisions for their household, they are going

to have to leave their farms for this season and make a living elsewhere. That is one matter that will require attention in the West this spring. These men in some cases are anxious to secure loans for seed from the municipalities, and generally our western municipalities are ready to make the necessary provision, but it will be understood that" if one or two men who are not suitable are among the number of men requiring assistance the municipality is not anxious to risk its money for them, and feels that the burden is on the Federal Government rather than on the local authorities.
Another matter that has in the past caused very considerable criticism throughout the West has been the tardiness with which settlement was made for stock ' and equipment purchased. I think probably that has largely been corrected, or at any rate it can be corrected by small changes in administration; but it has been quite a grievance both to the settler and to his vendor.
One other matter. I have disagreed with the chairman of the board in his choice of supervisors from amongst college men,- mainly young men. I hold the opinion very strongly that supervisors should be men of considerable age and experience, rather than very young men who have just come out of college, even though they might be able to write a better essay or pass higher in an examination on botany or some other such subject than the older practical men.
Connected with that, too, both in regard to supervisors and to inspectors of land, is what to my mind constitutes a serious weakness-that the pay is not sufficient to hold good men. I understand that the average pay of supervisors is $125 a month, and of land inspectors $150 a month. Furthermore, the latter are not engaged for the whole year, but only for the active season from probably the first of March to the first of December. For $1,300 a year you cannot get the type of man that should be employed by the board. While I mention this criticism, I would also mention this in excuse of the board, that I know they are doing their very best to keep down expenses. But since the success of this work will depend not less upon administration than upon the calibre of the men in the field, it is a poor point at which to attempt economies; and I think that you need rather to employ inspectors the year round at good salaries, and to employ supervisors who have had some experience and

who can command better pay because they can give better service.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: I rise to make one observation in regard to this matter. Before doing so I wish to endorse what the hon. member for Neepawa (Mr. Davis) has said in respect to supervisors. I think the board would be well advised to employ older men, for although these young fellows coming out of college may have the technical education, they have not the practical experience.
When the member for Quebec South (Mr. Power) rose to speak this afternoon he drew attention to the fact that he was speaking from this particular end of the Chamber, and he hastened to inform the committee that he was only here for the time being. Now, Sir, I believe if the member for Quebec South were to decide to sit with this group permanently it might be necessary for him to revise his views in some particulars. It is only a few weeks ago that the hon. member in a very able address charged the Agrarians or the farmers of this country with profiteering-at least, he tried to put them in the profiteer class. That is one thing he would have to disabuse his mind of.
When I returned to the West last fall I took occasion to meet the returned men in my constituency at a number of places, and their big criticism was the slowness with which inspections were made in Saskatchewan last year. I was informed by returned men that in some cases options that had been taken upon land expired befoie inspection and valuation was made. Again, in many cases inspection had not been made before the snow was on the ground, and during the winter the men were in a state of uncertainty as to whether or not they were going to get the lands. I hope the minister will see to it that this year the inspections are cleaned up early in the fall so that the men will not be kept in suspense.


Arthur Meighen: I wish to refer to some remarks made by the hon. member for Neepawa (Mr. Davis), supplemented and supported by my hon. friend (Mr. Johnston). The criticism was that there should not be such an adherence to young men, particularly agricultural college graduates, in the selection of supervisors. The duty of the field supervisor is to visit and assist the settler periodically after he goes on the land. There would be advantage in securing older men-experienced, successful farmers-but 1371
the difficulties are twofold. First, experienced, successful farmers are not available in these times at the prices which the board are able to pay. The conditions under which farming has been carried on during the last eight years have been too favourable to make it pay for a farmer to take a position of this kind for only part of the year at $150 a month. But secondly, and more important, we have been anxious to the utmost of our ability to secure returned men. Now, we cannot as a rule take returned men as appraisers, for the reasons that I have given; consequently we are more than anxious to take them as field supervisors, and we do so take them. It is very hard to get a returned man who is anything but a fairly young man and who at the same time knows agriculture. If you are going to have a returned man, and also an agriculturist, then about the best you can select is the agricultural college graduate who is a returned man. Consequently, our field supervisors are predominatingly of that class.
The hon. member for Last Mountain (Mr. Johnston) states that he has heard of cases of delay in Saskatchewan in the securing of valuations. There undoubtedly has been delay in winter. We have consistently refused to inspect land when it is under snow; I do not feel that we can do it when the land is under snow, and do it right. Consequently there is delay then, but the settler will simply have to put up with it because we cannot have winter inspections and at the same time protect the interests of the board. I do not think that there has been any general delay in summer. There [DOT]may have been a few individual cases, but none of them have come to my ears until now, and the settlers are not slow to write me if there is anything wrong. The average time between application and the completion of inspection is between two and three weeks, and that is certainly not long. There were inspected in Saskatchewan last year approximately 5,600 farms, so that with the limited staff at our disposal the hon. member will see that there has been anything but lethargy in the carrying on of the work.


John Frederick Johnston: I have passed this information on to the minister as it came to me, but I wish to impress upon the minister that it is imperative that the inspection be cleaned up in the fall so that the mqn will not have to be in uncertainty during the winter months. As to the employment of returned men, my view is that returned

man should he employed where-
6 p.m. ever possible, other things being equal. But I would not employ a returned man if I thought I could get a better man. I would say that in respect to the chairman of this board; I believe that he is the right man for the position, and from the fact that he is the right man there results a benefit to all returned men.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: In New Brunswick we were able to keep up with the inspection branch of the work all right, but. our trouble was to get the legal documents uade out after the purchase had been made. As a member of the local branch in our province I know that recommendations were made time and again to the chairman of the board that a solicitor should be provided for each county to look up the records and get out the papers without delay after a purchase was made. In a number of cases last summer we had so much delay that we had to get authority to make agreements of sale between the board and the man frota whom we were buying, pending the making out of the formal legal documents, and in that way we got the settlers on the land in time to harvest the crops; otherwise, that would have been impossible. In fact, those from whom the lands are purchased do not want to wait three months before the transfir is effected and the money is paid, and they do not feel like giving up the farm to ?he settler until they have something more reliable than a man's word for it that the price stated will be paid for the property. Our solicitor in New Brunswick had quite a large practice of his own, and he said that he simply did not have time to keep up with all the word. This soldier settlement work had to wait until he got his own work done,-that is, if he did not farm it out to some one else. In that respect I think some improvement might be made.


Arthur Meighen: If we had a solicitor in each county the cost would be utterly indefensible, if not startling. By our system of having a solicitor in the service of the board-I think that is the case in New Brunswick-we get more expeditious results, and we have reduced the legal costs allowed to lawyers in respect of searching titles for the board from an average of $20 to $22 per title to about $4 per title. In Alberta alone we saved by that method $180,000 in eight months. We are extending the system throughout the whole Dominion.


Thomas Wakem Caldwell: My proposal would
not be to employ a solicitor in each county

to devote his whole time to the work. In our province we had offers from solicitors in the different counties to take up this work at so much per deed, and I believe that the work could have been done just as cheaply in New Brunswick if we had so employed a man in each county. Several lawyers from different counties talked to me about this .matter. I am not sure that you could get- it done for $4 each. That looks to me very cheap, because my experience with lawyers has been that they will hardly bid you the time of day for less than that.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at Eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 73 (from the Senate), for the relief of Ignace Perugini.-Mr. Copp.
Bill No. 74 (from the Senate), foT the relief of William Murray Gray.-Mr. Mac-Nutt.
Bill No. 76 (from the Senate), for the relief of Gladys Stewart Addison.-Mr. Stewart (Lanark).
Bill No. 77 (from the Senate), for the relief of Fedorin Cope.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).
Bill No. 75 (from the Senate), for the relief of Albert Harvey McBride.-Mr. Mowat.
Bill No. 79 (from the Senate), for the relief of Alexander Scougall.-Mr. Mowat.
Bill No. 81 (from the Senate) for the relief of Ada Mabel Sanderson.-Mr. Mowat.
Bill No. 82 (from the Senate), for the relief of John Albert Green.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).
Bill No. 83 (from the Senate), for the relief of Emily Cruickshank.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).
Bill No. 84 (from the Senate), for the relief of Cyril Graham Sinclair.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 86 (from the Senate), for the relief of Richard Ernest Anderson.-Mr. Cronyn.
Bill No. 80 (from the Senate), for the relief of Edith Gertrude Willis.-Mr. Sheard.
Bill No. 87 (from the Senate), for the relief of Thomas Edward Dowthwaite.- Mr. Hocken.
Bill No. 88 (from the Senate), for the relief of Thomas Ferby Gatenby.-Mr. Hocken.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 89 (from ,the >Senate), for the relief of Michael Joseph Courtney.-Mr. Fiipp.	[DOT]
Bill No. 90 (from the Senate), for tne relief of Thomas Patrick O'Neill.-Mr. Stewart (Lanark).
Bill No. 91 (from the Senate), for the relief of Robert Ernest Beadie.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).
Bill No. 23, to incorporate Canadian American Fire Insurance Company. (As amended and recommending that the title be changed to " An Act to incorporate Aberdeen Fire Insurance Company.").- Mr. Griesbach.
Bill No. 71, respecting The Bell Telephone Company of Canada.-Mr. Mew-burn.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 95 (from the Senate) for the relief of William George Mackness.-Mr. Fraser.
Bill No. 96 (from the Senate) for the relief of Charles Elias Vardon.-Mr. Hocken.
Bill No. 97 (from the Senate) for the relief of John Hamilton Harvey.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 98 (from the Senate) for the relief of James Goddard.-Mr. MacNutt.
Bill No. 99 (from the Senate) for the relief of Frederick Stephen Hartmann.-Mr. MacNutt.
Bill No. 100 (from the Senate) for the Telief of William George McBride.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 101 (from the Senate) for the relief of George Stinson.'-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 102 (from the Senate) for the relief of John James Davis.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 105 (from the Senate) to incorporate United Canada Fire Insurance Company.-Mr. Blake.
Bill No. 106 (from the Senate) for the relief of Arthur Jones. - Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).
Bill No. 107 (from the Senate) for the relief of Eva Mary Moss.-Mt. Sheard.
Second Reading of Bill No. 110 (from the Senate) for the relief of Nellie Adeline Wallace.

Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. Ill (from the Senate) for the relief of Marion Olive Booth.-Mr. B'lake.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Soldiers' Land Settlement, $50,017,000.
["I wish I could in the brevity of my remarks make them as pithy in one direction as I am sure the Chairman of the Committee would wish; but there are limitations of course which we find ourselves in contact with, and which, whether we wish it or not, restrain in many ways the practical embodiment of the sympathies and goodwill of the Government.\nI have been particularly pleased with the tone of the debate-not speaking of tone in the usual way, but in regard to the line of intelligent appreciation and presentation of the subject itself. Not merely a sentimental support has been given, but a support of insight and of real connection between the mind and the heart of the speaker and the principles of the subject under discussion.\nAs one heard successive speakers talking of the marvellous things which had been done by science, and which we ourselves had forgotten in a good many respects until they were brought to our attention to-night, one wondered why people run into other channels for the wonders of romance. Really\n\nthe greatest romances, particularly of the last centuries, have been found in the development of scientific thought and in the scientific research earned on by the quiet workers of the world. They come upon us one after the other; the story passes, and then we are apt to forget. When we have a summing up, such as we have had to-night, we are impressed with the wonderful phases of the development of humanity which has taken place during the last fifty, sixty or one hundred years.\nAs to the matter which is directly before us, I will spare the blushes of the member for London (Mr. Cronyn) by not reiterating what has already been said by many of those who have spoken. But while sparing his blushes, I do not want him to think that I do not in my heart thank him for the work which he and his willing and efficient committee have performed in connection with this matter and for the way in which they have presented the subject to us to-night. We must not forget, either, that during the l^st five years, as was mentioned by the member for Calgary West (Mr. Tweedie) we have been doing a little towards maintaining and extending the interest in this matter through the Advisory Research Council. Things of this kind proceed step by step,- here a little, and there a little. Without a doubt we are working up to the point where we shall have in Canada some such efficient mechanism as has been described here to-night. I wish we could work it out now, but there are considerations which make that difficult. I am not, however, without hope that we may, even this year, -make a beginning in the direction of carrying out the report-something, at least, which will be an earnest of the completion of the project as soon as possible. In a way, it is a kind of irony that the very thing which has made it particularly necessary that an impetus should be given to scientific research and the alliance of scientific effort with industrial development, the war, has so crippled us that we cannot do what we would like to do in this respect. Science does two things: it puts within the power of the destructive elements of war vast enginery and machinery for completing the destruction upon which it is bent, and almost at the same time it stretches out the hand of solace, comfort, help to the victims of the destruction which it has thus helped to create. If the war has made wounds, deep and gaping, and broad, and if science has helped to make those wounds, science to-day is putting all its resources and its effort into the healing of those wounds, into the\nbringing of a normal period and, subsequently, a more progressive period of development in all these matters, not leaving out that which is probably the greatest good that can come from the development of science,-the betterment of the world and the greater wellbeing of all those who live in it. For after all, science is to he judged, not by the material development which it first brings about, but by the extent to which it promotes the comfort, happiness and uplift of the people; by the general good which it accomplishes for the world.\nI want to reiterate my thanks and the thanks of the Government for the good work which hals been done by the member for London and his committee, and to assure them that it will not be allowed to pass without fruit. I hope that something may be done alt an early day; that if all we would like - to do cannot be 'accomplished, at least a beginning may be made. I shall bring the matter to the- attention of my colleagues, and I know that I shall have a sympathetic set of colleagues, whether or not we 'shall be table to cross all the ditches and make all the progress we would like to make at this particular time."]
Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: When the committee
rose at six o-'clo-ck we had, I 'believe, just terminated the discussion on this item. Shall the item carry?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Before the item carries,
Mr. Chairman; I have a large number of resolutions, passed by the Great War Veterans in convention assembled, to bring to the attention of the minister. Some of these resolutions have already been- discuss^ ed, but I am under the impression that owing to the fact that very important business is to come on later time will perhaps be saved were I to ask the minister to obtain through his very efficient department, copies of these resolutions and see to it that they are placed before the committee now sitting on Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment. This committee, I am sure, will be in a position to deal with matters affecting the-re-establishment of the soldier, as it has already dealt with the question of pensions. But before asking the minister to do this, I would like to draw his attention particularly to some of the resolutions in the hope that he will be able to settle the grievances complained of, and thus relieve the committee referred to of the necessity of bringing in any recommendations.
One of the resolutions asks that the Settlement Board make arrangements for the breaking of wild lands in any locality where there are large soldier settlements; and another recommends that all leased lands be re-inspected and re-classified immediately, and that such inspection be conducted by experts other than branch inspectors. There are a number of others with reference to w'aste land; and one in particular with reference to Dominion lands which recommends that- service in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces be held equivalent to residence and duty done irrespective of w'het-her the entry was made prior or subsequent to enlistment. As I said before, it may not, perhaps, serve any useful purpose to take up the time of the House with this matter, but there is no doubt that the soldiers appear to have a real grievance, and this grievance should receive a hearing from some authority. The best possible body at present constituted for that purpose is the Committee of Reestablishment.
Before closing, however, I would like to make this statement,

that though it is rather early to unduly criticize the whole policy of re-establishment, it does seem to me that if this is intended to be a policy of colonization, in the old provinces at any rate, it has failed of its purpose, inasmuch as old farms are being taken up by new settlers who may or may not make agricultural experts, and so for the time -during which greater production is needed that

greater production will not be obtained. If this scheme is intended for re-establishment of our soldiers, it sins in this respect, that we are re-establishing one class of soldiers at the expense of all the other classes. On the principle of giving equal justipe to all the Government should make some provision whereby other soldiers will also be enabled to re-establish themselves.


Mr. McISAAC:: Mr. Chairman, when we take into account the magnitude of this undertaking, the very large amount of money involved, and the great number of soldiers to be dealt with, and, further, when we consider that the whole matter is new and that the minister and his associates have had nothing to guide them in working out this intricate problem, it appears to me that he and the board of management are entitled to the greatest possible commendation.
Prom every point of view the report presented to this committee is admirable. I can scarcely permit the occasion to pass without making a brief reference to the province from which I come-Prince Edward Island, and to express my gratification at the excellent showing that this small province-'the smallest in Confederation - has made. According to the report 234 settlements were made, which is a very large number in proportion to the total population of the province. Not only that, Mr. Chairman, but the high average value per acre of the lands appropriated for settlement in that province, over $22 is most gratifying, it being the third highest, British Columbia coming first and Alberta second. Another very agreeable fact is that among these 234 soldiers who were settled on the Island only one failed to make good, which is a very pleasant feature indeed.
On the whole, then, when we consider this question in all its phases,-the enormous amount of money involved and the magnitude of the work-and when we contrast the intricacy of the problems to be solved with the marked success that has attended the solution of those problems by the minister and his board of management, and especially by the chairman of that board, I say again, Mr. Chairman, that all concerned are deserving of the highest praise.


Mr. MacNUTT:: I want to take this opportunity of putting in a good word for the chairman of the Soldiers' Settlement Board, Doctor Black. I have had a good deal of correspondence with him and numerous conversations, and I know him to be perfectly efficient, and that his heart is in the work. Why he was appointed rather than a re-

turned soldier I cannot say, but possibly at the time there was no sufficiently qualified' returned soldier available. I can say, however, from my experience of Dr. Black that he was a good choice; he is doing his work well and, I think, in the interests of the soldiers. I understand that about 90 per cent of the officials of the board are returned soldiers, which is a very fair showing.
There have been, however, some defects in local administration. I take a good deal of interest in the work of the board, and last fall I spent several weeks in ordeT to ascertain how the Soldiers' Settlement Act was working out in practice. I found very few complaints of wrong valuations (there were some, of course); but there weTe numerous complaints of delays in land valuation and stock inspection. Delays in land valuation have already been dealt with this afternoon, and I need only add that I know of cases where the applications were approved in the middle of the summer or even earlier, but inspections were not made, and, of course, when the snow came those inspections were hung up until the following spring. Now, it seems to me that in many cases this delay was entirely inexcusable. A few weeks should be all that is necessary between the time of the application being approved and the inspection being made. Those soldiers whose inspections were delayed have had to wait until spring, not only for the valuation of the land, but if that is approved, for the valuation of the stock, and that means that they are losing a year. I am speaking, of course, of men who want to buy improved farms.
There are two classes of inspection: Land valuating, and stock and implement inspection. A good land man may not be a good stock man; and the converse may be the case. I think, though, that wherever possible the duties should be combined, and that when a man makes a valuation of the land, if he is a capable man, he should also make an inspection of the stock and implements. But in any event, there is no reason why stock and implement inspection should be delayed on account of the snow. I found a large number of men whose land had been inspected did not know what to do-they were losing options in stock ,and good markets, and weTe very much discontented. I took the matter up at Regina, and a very good land valuator was authorized, who, however, at that time had no authority to inspect stock and implements, although he was a first-class man at this work. He was called into Regina and given instructions to go over the district I

am speaking about-my own constituency- and as I kept in touch with him and also with the returned men by phone and otherwise, I found that he was doing good work. He had had sixty or seventy cases to start with. The men were waiting for an inspection which could have been made considerably earlier. However, most of these oases have been dealt with, and there has been a great improvement along this line which I hope will continue. This plan for the settlement of soldiers upon the land is a good one if you get the right men on the right kind of land and deal with them in a proper way. But you must give them a good start; if they get a bad start it will be hard for them to make up. They have a good deal on their shoulders, but after all they are called upon to pay an interest rate of only a little more than seven per cent on the cost of the land which covers principal as well. If a man went to a loan company he would probably have to pay eight per cent or thereabouts simply for the use of the money. I do think, however, that in the matter of repayment, the amounts allowed for stock and implements should, if possible, be put on the same basis as amounts allowed for land. Of course, the amount is amortized for four years, the first two years without interest. But even so, the first few years are going to be most difficult for the settler. I know that the whole thing has to be done on business lines, but in any case the land is responsible for the whole debt incurred by the settler when he takes advantage of this loan together with the stock and implements. Moreover, the land would increase in value as time went on, and the Government would still have good security. The suggestion that the amounts which are expended u,pon the purchase of stock and implements should be included with the land payments is one which I think is well worthy of consideration, in the general interests of soldier settlement. As to the defects of local administration to which I have referred, I believe that the machinery is now runing more smoothly under the chairmanship of iDt. (Black, who has kept in touch with matters of this kind, and I am satisfied that the plan will work well in the future.
Mr. MORPHY': So many uniformly delightful things have been said to-day about the administration of this department that a changed condition has been brought about in this Chamber. It is rather pleasing to me, as one who has had a good deal to do with individual cases before the
Soldiers' Settlement Board, to find that my experience has been the general experience of all those who have spoken and who have had dealings with the board. It is true that the encomiums have come largely from friends of the third or Agrarian party, and from this side of the House. Whether it is because these hon. gentlemen have taken a keener interest in the welfare of the soldier than hon. gentlemen opposite, I do not know; but it struck me as rather peculiar that all the commendatory remarks had come from these two sides of the House. They have come, I believe, from the sincerity of the hearts of those who have had to do with the board. My mind reverts to the time when this board was being formed. All kinds of predictions of disaster were made; the Government were entering it was said, upon a ruinous undertaking the end of which no man knew. The country would be impoverished; the soldier would fall down in the undertaking and leave his debts unpaid; there would be a great financial loss all round. It is rather pleasing to know now from the minister that the scheme has been well thought out and that to-day we have fifteen or sixteen thousand returned soldiers on the land, practically all making good-so good that already some of them have been able to pay back to the Government, long before the repayment was required, the money that was advanced to them. This is a hopeful sign, because it will operate as an incentive to those who have yet to take up land under the soldier settlement scheme. So that we have launched upon the sea of Canadian life a scheme which goes to re-establish the soldier, to put him upon his feet, to enable him to make a first-class living for himself, and which also ensures to the consumers of the country a vastly greater production than would have been the case had this plan not been adopted. In this early period of reconstruction it is pleasing to find this branch of soldier settlement and reestablishment meeting with a great measure of success. The Minister of the Interior (Mr. Meighen) who would have had to take the responsibility for failure, is entitled to the credit for the success of the scheme, and so far as it has been a success I join with other hon. gentlemen who have congratulated him. But the thing that struck me more than anything else in my dealing with the board was the manner in which the service outside of Ottawa- in Toronto, for instance-was carried on. A great deal of credit is due to Dr. Black

for having followed the example of the minister in getting round him a good staff and in prosecuting the work outside of what we might call headquarters. The executive in Toronto are up-to-date, businesslike, prompt, courteous, and altogether alive to the work that they have to do. I congratulate Dr. Black on his services and on the services of those whom he has seen fit to bring into the country's service under him. I have great pleasure in giving this testimony, based, as it is, upon my own personal experience.


Arthur Meighen: I desire to make some remarks later anent the speech of my hon. friend (Mr. Power) and also as to some suggestions made by the member for Saltcoats (Mr. MacNutt), but as the House expects another matter of importance to go on to-night which cannot be deferred much longer, I beg to move, in accordance with the suggestion of the Acting Prime Minister, that the committee rise, report progress and beg leave to sit again this day.
Motion agreed to; progress reported.



[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Sir George Foster the House returned to the order of motions.
Mr. HUME CRONYN (London):: I beg to move:
That the first report of the Special Committee appointed to enquire into the matter of the development in Canada of scientific research be now considered and that the recommendations thereof be commended to the consideration of the Government.
It is not uncommon when a member of the House rises to introduce a resolution of this type to hear him state that the matter is one of prime importance, nor is it hard to understand such a declaration, because if the matter at issue did not in the mind of the mover seem to be important he doubtless would have hesitated to bring it to the attention of the House. When, therefore, by way of introduction, I assert my belief that the resolution and the report it seeks to confirm are of importance to the country, I am but affirming my pronounced conviction on that point. Doubtless matters already debated in the House, and to be debated, are rightly classed as important, but I doubt if there be one whose influence, if carried to conclusion, would be as widespread and enduring, at least to the material prosperity of Canada, as ..that dealing with scientific industrial

research. I therefore crave a hearing and consideration from the members to the remarks that may follow in this debate, as I am above all anxious that Parliament and the country shall understand the recommendations of the committee. My part of the task will be to co-ordinate the report made at the spring session of last year with the present report, as the latter is the logical outcome of what previously occurred.
Let me go back for a moment to review what has happened. Some three years ago under the terms of an Act passed by this Parliament an Honourary Advisory Council was appointed to survey the present situation in this respect and to report thereon. After very carefully considering the matter and making numerous and widespread inquiries, consulting those both here and abroad best fitted to express an opinion, the council reached the conclusion that scientific industrial research was worthy of support by this Dominion, and that such support could most effectively be applied by the foundation of a central research institute in or near the capital of the country. For more extended reference to these reports I would direct the House to the reports of the administrative chairman of the council which have from time to time been laid on the Table. During the spring session of last year a Select Parliamentary Committee was appointed to inquire into the whole matter and I would ask leave to read one or two extracts from their report:
Upon consideration of the whole question, your committee beg to report that scientific research in Canada requires and deserves generous encouragement and financial support from the Dominion Government. In no better way can the natural resources of our country be made available with the same degree of celerity and certainty, nor can our native industries achieve their proper position in the markets of the world unless given the advantages accruing from scientific research and discovery.
Your committee feel that the time has arrived when further steps must be taken and additional financial support be available if this country desires to make a proper use of its potential assets and to attain or maintain its standing in the commonwealth of nations.
The attention of your committee has been directed to the fact that there does not exist in this country any institution corresponding to the Bureau of Standards at "Washington. As a result, Canada is dependent on the neighbouring republic or on other countries for information and guidance in matters which vitally concern her industries. A study of the evidence submitted will convince any impartial student of the weakness of our position in this regard and of the need for a speedy remedy. Your committee, therefore, recommend to the consid-

eration of the Government the establishment of a Dominion Bureau of Standards.
While your committee, as above stated, are unanimous as to the need of co-operation and national support of scientific research, yet a majority of its members, owing to the lack of time and pressure of other parliamentary duties, feel they have been unable to so consider and digest the evidence adduced and the other material brought to their attention as to advise the House at this time what may be the best method of aiding and encouraging scientific research throughout Canada.
These extracts are from the report-of the committee of a year ago. The committee appointed this session has given consideration to the question raised by the former committee, and the report iwhich has just been tabled shows the findings of the committee in that respect. As, possibly, that report has not been read by most of the members present I might make a short review of its contents.
After reciting the situation in somewhat the same language that I have just used the report goes on record ais follo'ws:
The urgency of action to be taken to establish a National Research Institute to promote scientific and industrial research in Canada is patent to all who know what is being done abroad in this line.
There is in Canada no organization which even distantly approaches the character of any of the research institutes established abroad or now being established.
The report then states what is being done, what has been done, and what is about to be done, in this matter, by countries like Great Britain, the United States, -Japan, and other overseas Dominions. It goes on:
It is evident, therefore, that Canada, to meet the international competition which the work of these laboratories will serve to accentuate very greatly, must have a National Research Institute, which will place at the command of the country all the resources of science and further the development of the natural wealth of the country to meet the huge burden of debt imposed by the war. The developed wealth of Canada as compared with that of the United States is small. If the natural resources of the Dominions were appropriately utilized, its developed wealth might readily be as much as ten times what it is now. The conversion of our natural resources into developed wealth, however, can only be accomplished through the application to them of science of the most highly advanced type.
One example is given, among many, of what it is hoped may be accomplished by scientific research, and it would be easy to instance others of equal importance. The report then states:
Tour Committee believe the first step towards providing for the research required is the establishment of a National Research Institute whose functions will be to carry on researches,
not only parallel to those of the Bureau of Standards at Washington, but such also as will assist in the development of the natural resources of the country and will promote the application of the most advanced scientific knowledge. to all lines of industrial production in Canada.
The report then sets forth just what work such an institution (would undertake. I do not propose to read that portion of the report verbatim, but in general terms I might explain that the functions of such an institute will be in the main of two kinds. In the first place it will he charged with the standardization of measures throughout the country, including in 'that term (a) standards of length, volume, weight, etc., of heat, light, electricity and other forms cf energy; (b) of scientific and technical apparatus whether used in the public service or in the industries of the country; and (c) of the quality of the materials required in the construction of public works and of the supplies needed in the various branches of the Government service.
The second function of the institute will be to direct and supervise researches into technical processes and methods so as to assist, first, in the development of the natural resources of Canada; second, in the expansion of existing industries or the furthering of new industries; third, in utilization of those materials which have hitherto been discarded as waste products. To put it shortly, the institute is not only to be a bureau of standards in the narrower significance of the term, but it will as well undertake the supervision of scientific industrial research for the benefit of the country at large.
The methods to be followed in the falfil-ment of the latter part of the programme will be in the main those already adopted by Great Britain and the United States. An endeavour will be made-nor do I see any reason why it should fail

to form in this country trade associations or, as it is proposed to call them, trade guilds, for research. That is to say, the industries scattered throughout the land that are interested in some form of activity will be brought together, and through their joint efforts and subscription a competent scientific investigator or research expert will be selected and his salary paid by the guild. This man and his assistants will be allotted a properly equipped laboratory in the governmental central research institute where he will find at his disposal not merely the various mechanical and physical appliances with which the institute will be furnished, but as well the skilled experience

and advice of the Government experts in charge of the institute. As I have stated, the plan outlined is that already followed in Great Britain and the United States. In the former country indeed the government is inclined to deal more liberally with the industries than our plan suggests because under the plan adopted by Great Britain, there is supplied out of the public funds to trade associations for research an equal amount to any sum which these associations can themselves raise. The report concludes with the following recommendation :
Your Committee accordingly recommend:
(1)	that a National Research Institute for Canada, endowed with the function and of the character indicated in the foregoing, be established in the vicinity of Ottawa on a site fifty acres in area of easy access and conveniently located for water, gas and electric power supply.
(2)	that the first building to be erected for the Institute should be of the best modern construction suitable for laboratory work and of such dimensions as to provide accommodation for some years to come.
(3)	that there be appropriated by Parliament $50 0/0 00 for the purchase of the site and the construction of the building, $ 100,(KM) for the scientific equipment of the Institute, and $50,-OO'O for salaries and maintenance during the first year of operation.
(4)	that legislation be enacted at this session to provide for the establishment of this National Research Institute and the government of the same.
I do not propose to discuss clause by clause these recommendations, but lest the sums mentioned might at first blush appear large, let us say to our Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton), particularly in view of the need for stringent economy recognised and adopted by the Government, permit me to say that 'these figures were not reached without mature consideration. They are based in the first place on the information given to the committee last year by the director of the Bureau of Standards in the United States, and, taking into account the increased cost of building material, they practically agree with the initial expenditure made in Washington some twenty years ago for the same purpose. The figures are further confirmed by the plans and estimates prepared by a competent architect and by the judgment of those whose knowledge of such matters can be relied upon. It may be pointed out that the expenditure of the amounts mentioned must of necessity be spread over a term of years. It will be quite impossible to erect the building required and instal the equipment within the present financial year. So far as the item for salaries and maintenance is concerned, the greater part of it must remain in abeyance until the

institute is completed and is actually in operation. It is believed by the committee that the expenditure proposed will provide for the requirements of scientific research in Canada for some years to come, and it is our opinion that it would be shortsighted to make the common mistake of failing to recognize the inevitable expansion which must take place in a movement of this kind.
May I note in passing that one of the distinguished witnesses who appeared before the committee last year namely, Professor McLennan of Toronto, expressed disappointment at the meagreness of the budget which this committee has suggested and contrasted it disadvantageous^ with the infinitely more liberal provisions which the British Government has made for the same purpose since the war.
I do not propose to discuss at this stage any of the alternative suggestions which have come before the committee. They were earnestly considered and much of the testimony introduced last year bore directly on the point. The conclusion of the committee was definite, that the plan now recommended is undoubtedly the best; but I do not wish to be understood as saying that in future some qualifications of this plan may not be wise. So far as one can see, a central research institute will always be a necessity, although as in other departments there must, and I should think would be, a natural growth. If in the course of the debate questions arise in regard to alternative proposals, doubtless they can be dealt with by other speakers, or I shall be happy to take them up when I have an opportunity of closing the debate.
As before stated, the committee during last session heard evidence of a number of expert witnesses both from this country and from the neighbouring republic. These men were experts, some of whom had spent their entire lives in scientific research. While that testimony and reference to such works as are available on the subject convinced me personally of the wisdom of the proposal, it seemed wise to make a personal investigation so that I could look more closely into the actual working of institutions similar to the one proposed. With that end in view I took advantage of the late Easter vacation to pay a visit to Washington to see the Bureau of Standards, and to 'Pittsburgh to examine the Mellon Institute; and with your permission, Mr. Speaker,- I should like briefly to repeat the impressions gained by that visit, impressions which have already been conveyed to the committee.

The Bureau of Standards is situated a few miles out of Washington close to the electric line, in the centre of what has become a. well-settled residential district. The purchase made twenty years age was of eight acres. Since that time other portions surrounding the original area have been bought and the total hoMing is noiw 36 acres. This area is considered too small for the needs of the bureau, bult unfortunately the territory surrounding it has 'been largely built up and the prioe ef land has reached an extraordinarily high level. The original building is encircled by others of larger dimensions which are devoted to the evergrowing need's of the Bureau, and during the war the United States Government erected a building larger than any of those that had previously gone up. This was intended to be used for some specific war purpose but it had not been occupied at the time the Armistice was signed and the President of the United States thereupon handed it over to the Bureau. The building is of the finest factory construction, of steel and reinforced concrete and with maximum window space. It cost in the neighbourhood of $1,000,000. It hah been dedicated by the Bureau of Standards to Scientific Industrial Research and the greater part of it is already occupied by various industries or associations with a view to solving their problems-problems which constantly confront all those in the modern industrial world.
The annual estimates of the Bureau, which were considered a few weeks ago, are over $2,000,000 a year. It is true that there is some disposition this year on the part of the Houses of Congress, owing to the nearness of the presidential election, to exercise a sporadic economy by lopping off a certain amount of these estimates, but it is n'ot thought that the activities of the Bureau will be .seriously prejudiced by what, after all, is a temporary political movement. 'The original function of the Bureau was to determine standards throughout the United States. If we change but one word in the report now before the House-that is delete the word "Canada" -we have a complete description of the activities of the Bureau on its standards side. I do not propose to read a list of these activities to you. I think I have discussed theim in speaking of our own institute, but among ithem I might mention that the Bureau tests everything purchased by the Government; indeed, it goes farther 'and at the request of the various departments, it prepares specifications of all important materials which are to be purchased for the use of the public iservioe. One or two instances of this kind might be illuminating. The American Government desired to purchase incandescent lamps. Upon investigation by the Bureau it was found that the lamp supplied by the lowest tenderer was deficient in certain qualities. As a result of this inquiry the Bureau definitely established a type of lamp which would give the maximum of light and the greatest length of service. What happened? The wide-awake manufacturers in the United States were only too glad to supply that type of lamp and to secure from the Bureau a certificate as to (their quality.
Again, the Government there required, as we do in this country, vast quantities of paper for use in the public service. The , usual specification set out the materials that the paper should consist of. But when the first shipment came in the Bureau found that the paper supplied lacked entirely one of the necessary ingredients. In this case the manufacturer candidly .admitted that he had not tried to live up to the specification because he never dreamed that such a test would be made. He prepared himself at once to give exactly what the Government needed and called for.
The Bureau of Standards investigated on behalf of the Government, the question of storage batteries. They found, as a result of their scientific research into the question, that without expense the ordinary type of battery could be improved by at least ten per cent. The manufacturers, of course, were glad to adopt that improvement and it is now general throughout the whole country. When we consider that $100,000,000 worth of these batteries are each year sold throughout the country, it is perhaps not unfair to credit the Bureau ol Standards with a saving to the country oi something akin to $10,000,000. As a matter of record that research is still going on in the Bureau and the expert in charge is reasonably hopeful that he may improve the ordinary storage battery by at least 25 per cent over the one found on the commercial market.
With reference to the matter of testing materials supplied to the Government, one can understand the vast quantity of articles like cement, steel, brick and so forth that are used in that country and the statement is made by the officers of the Bureau that the saving of the Government on that one item alone is sufficient to pay the entire cost of the maintenance of the Bureau. Any manufacturer in the United

States is -at liberty to submit his wares to be tested at the Bureau of Standards and to receive an official certificate as to their quality. I think we can understand how rapidly improvements along many lines must follow because of this rule. Indeed, some Canadian firms are alive to the advantage and so far have been permitted to submit their goods to the tests of the Bureau of Standards at Washington.
Let me revert for a moment again to the question of paper. The Bureau has installed in one of the buildings a small paper mill and there it manufactures paper for all ordinary uses from the most unpromising material. The Bureau tests the ropes used in the navy, and it also tests the twine used in the various departments. It accumulates thus a great quantity of samples, and instead, of throwing these away or selling them to the ragman it converts them into paper. I have a sample of the wrapping paper used by the Government and made from manila rope. Certainly, to any one handling it, it seems to be a first-class article of its kind. They have also made paper out of stranger material than that, because I have a sample of paper made from the banana stalks of plants grown in Siam, made at the request of the representative of Siam. That paper might be very well used for various purposes, such as wrapping fruit, as it has a silky quality. There is also a paper made from a wild grass that grows in that same country-grass which to my mind is precisely like that which grows very freely in the marshes of our western provinces.
There is even a further extension of the standard side of this Bureau because the acceptance of the word "standard" has been enlarged to include standards of practice, and, following that line, standards of safety have been developed, and in co-operation with various states of the Union and municipalities these have been largely accepted throughout the whole Republic. I have under my hand one of the safety codes of standards adopted by the Bureau. It is dated 1916, and is called "The National Electric Safety Code." Now it is said, but I cannot vouch for it, that each year in the United States approximately 1,000 people meet their death by accident with electric appliances. If the use of this code, which sets out in great detail all the necessary precautions which should be taken, is adopted by the States in framing their legislation, or by the municipalities in framing their regulations, so wanton a loss of life may largely be avoided. I note that in the

introduction of this code the following paragraph appears:
The bureau has had the cordial co-operation and assistance of many state industrial and public-service commissions, municipal electrical inspectors, engineers of operating and manufacturing companies, committees of engineering societies, and representatives of the fire and casualty insurance interests, and of the electrical workers. Without such co-operation the work would have been impossible.
Similar codes dealing with the various uses of gas, with fire prevention and fire-resisting construction have been published and many others are under way. So much for the standard side of the Bureau.
Last year when Dr. Stratton, director of the Bureau, appeared before our committee, he told us something of the industrial research which was carried on in that institution. I must confess, I was greatly impressed by the very active development which has occurred along that line. This, in part, is due to the acquisition of the new building to which reference has already been made, but also in part it is due to the general recognition throughout the United States of the immense value to the country of concerted effort in scientific research. There is established at Washington a National Research Council, which, although not a governmental institution, acts in close co-operation with the various scientific departments of the government. One of its main activities is to educate industries throughout the country as to what may be accomplished by scientific research, and to counsel, by personal addresses and printed matter, through its energetic secretary and other officers, all those who might be interested. As a result there is brought prominently before the public the full meaning and significance of the movement. It should not be surprising, therefore, that full advantage has been taken of the facilities offered by the Bureau of Standards, as the industries are free to bring their problems to the Bureau and to have them investigated with the aid of the best material, both physical and mental, which the country can supply. Experience has shown that even bitter rivals in their particular line find the value of co-operation; and we were given ocular demonstration of tests being made of various methods to demonstrate which was the most effective and economical.
The Mellon Institute of Pittsburg is a pioneer institution 'in purely industrial scientific research. While its building was erected and its overhead expense of $60,000 a year is sup-

plied through the munificence of the Mellon Bros., the institution itself is conducted on a commercial basis, i.e., the parties desirous of taking advantage of its facilities must pay a fixed sum for a year or term of years. The discoveries made by means of the research accrue to the subscriber-or donor as he is termed- although as a rule liberal rewards by way of bonus are granted to the investigator who produces the result. The most striking testimony to the success of the institution is found in the fact that not only is every square foot of their large building occupied, but there is a waiting list of considerable length of those who are desirous of taking advantage of the institution. The institution has published a list of the researches undertaken by it during the past year. These are forty-eight in number, and I would like to mention a few of them to show how varied are the matters inquired into. The first one mentioned is window-glass, the next soap, then dental products, copper, oil, yeast-for which $15,000 is paid for investigation and there is a separate one for bread involving a payment of $10,000 per annum-household utilities, fuel, by-products recovery, insecticides-which has been- in existence for some years-fertilizer, laundry -in connection with this we met two young lady scientists who had been in charge of the work for some time-and the last on the list is .fruit beverages-hon. gentlemen will see they were anticipating the arid spell which has fallen on the United States. I have quoted at some length from the results of this visit, not because the institutions are American, but because they are nearby and are in line with those we desire to adopt.
It seemed well to give to the House the above sketch of the result of a trip taken with the sole view of ascertaining what could be learned of the actual operation and results of institutions similar to the one suggested for Canada. Many of us, Mr. Speaker, possess in imagination, far up the broad river of Time, an Island of Long Ago. To us it appears a delectable land where life had more of content and leisure than we can expect to gain this side of the grave. I suspect, however, that the mists of the past hide from us most of what was objectionable in that far-off region. H G. Wells may well be right when he exclaims:
" That large, naked, virtuous, pink natural man, drinking pure spring water, eating the fruits of the earth, and living to 90 in the open air, is a fantasy; he never was nor will be. . .	. The real savage is a nest of parasites
within and without; he smells, he rots, he
starves."
Whatever may be the truth in this respect is but a matter of academic interest, for the world has definitely turned its steps into the highway of national progress. As this morning's paper puts it:
Do you really want the " good old days '' when there were no Pullmans, fast trains, anaesthetics, telephones, bicycles, automobiles, moving pictures, self-binders, hay-loaders, cream-separators, phonographs, cold storage, plate glass, gas cooking ranges, incandescent lights, aeroplanes, elevators, fast ocean liners, X-ray photography, typewriters, adding machines, cash registers, asphalt, microscopes, telescopes, linotypes, high-speed presses, and automatic machines in almost every branch of endeavour? Think it over. Have these things not added something to the measure of human happiness?
If we were to examine the above heterogeneous list or any other which might be compiled we would discover that without science not a single one of the many articles mentioned would be in existence. The world, as I .say, has determined on "Progress," as its motto. Other nations are moving forward. Can we in Canada afford to neglect the systematic study of the greatest aid to advancement? Assuredly unless we make the effort we shall be left behind.
I am glad to believe that neither business life nor, what is perhaps more trying, political experience, has wholly atrophied my faculty of imagination-one need not, in a country such as ours, give even free rein to this faculty to visualize the possibilities which may be disclosed by concerted effort in scientific research. While, however, I may have exercised my imagination I have, nevertheless, endeavoured throughout the inquiry to look at this matter . from a cold-blooded business point of view. I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that from that point alone the establishment of a Central Besearch Institute will be a paying venture. Had I the resources at my disposal I would conceive it to be a thoroughly sound and profitable investment, provided the value of the discoveries and improvements made by means of .such an institute could accrue to my personal advantage.
I have attempted, Mr. Speaker, to refrain from repetition of what I said on this subject nearly a year ago. On that occasion I made the endeavour to cover a wider field; but while the temptation was pressing, I hoped that those hon. members who are interested in the subject might remember something of what was then said and would quite properly resent the threshing of old

straw. I do venture, however, once more, to repeat that the need of such an institute is pressing, that the rewards to the country will be great, and that the expenditure proposed is, in my opinion, amply justified.


Mr. ALFRED THOMPSON (Yukon) :: Mr. Speaker, I rise for the purpose of seconding the motion which has been so well proposed by the chairman of this Research Committee, my hon. friend from London (Mr. Cronyn). I think you will agree with me after hearing what he has said that the committee appointed by the House has not followed this inquiry in any haphazard way. Both last session and this session, but particularly last session, the committee had the privilege of hearing distinguished scientists on various questions which it desired to consider in connection with the Institute of Research.
Pioneering is, of course, expensive in all industries, and the committee has had the benefit of the experience gained in European countries and in the United States with regard to the Bureau of Standards and the Institute of Research. I am satisfied that if our country is to take its proper place in the industrial world both of these institutions are necessities for Canada in an industrial sense.
Probably at no period in the history of man has it been easier to demonstrate the value of applied science than it is to-day. The late war has amply shown us what science can do in the field; and the industrial progress of the great nations to-day shows us what the application of science is doing in connection with the industries of the world. I have no doubt, Mr. Speaker, that that nation which is best equipped with scientific knowledge, scientific apparatus, and scientific institutions will, in the future, have the best chance in the race for industrial supremacy or, indeed, in that of war.
Canada is rich in natural resources-immensely rich; but in order to transmute these resources into commodities which the world needs one thing particularly is required, and that is applied science. Industry you must have-you must have the intelligent artisan; you must have people in the country who have faith enough in its future to put their capital into manufacturing enterprises; but without science that labour and those manufacturing enterprises would not go very far.
My hon. friend (Mr. Cronyn) has given you very clearly the objects which the committee had in mind in recommending that a Bureau of Standards be established, and

in conjunction with it an Institute for Scientific Research. I shall not traverse again the ground that he so well covered, but I would like to refer to just one or two items, particularly in connection with the Bureau of Standards. Take for instance, Mr. Speaker, our unit of measurement, the yard. It had its origin in the mists of antiquity, came across the Channel with the Anglo-Saxons, and now the representative of that system is lying somewhere in the archives of the city of London in the shape of a metal bar of a certain length. In 1870 the French people decided to create a new unit of measurement, and they took a section of a quadrant of the circumference of the earth and called it a metre. It was not very many years before the scientific men of their country discovered that the metre was not scientifically accurate. Since then scientists have discovered a means whereby a measurement can be adopted which is universal and never-changing-the wave of light; and 1 have no doubt that within the next few years that will be the standard of measurement for length. So I might refer to the unit for the measure of volume and other units of measurement, but I will not detain the House in regard to them.
My hon. friend has referred to the testing of building material-a very excellent thing for us to have to-day-in connection with our public works-in order to ascertain the strength and quality of such materials. I do not think our Government have any means at the present time of making such tests.
With regard to research, it is well known that we have huge areas of tar sands in the northern and western portions of our Prairie Provinces. They have been there for millions of years; they will be there for millions of years longer unless we can discover some means of taking from them their asphaltic products and transferring them to the markets of the world. There is therefore a great field for research in relation to those tar sands. So too with iron ore. We were told here the other day that the higher grades of iron ores are being depleted and that soon we shall have to depend on the low grade ores of Canada- another field for scientific research.
We are about to enter the world as an exporting trade nation, and it is absolutely necessary that our goods when exported should bear the hallmark of quality; otherwise these three transcontinental roads we have built and these great merchant ships we are putting on the oceans of the world

will not carry the cargoes from our shores that they should carry. Therefore I hope that when this Bureau of Standards is established in Ottawa every ton of goods leaving Canada will bear the stamp of that Bureau which will mean Canadian quality of the first class.
I was interested a few days ago to meet a man who told me that our greatest competitors in the sale of wheat in the Liverpool market were the Russians. He informed me that the Russian wheat was sold in Liverpool by sample; the Canadian wheat was sold by standard. And it was easier to sell the Canadian wheat, and it brought a little better price.
In this great province of Ontario, Mr. Speaker, there is not one ton of coal-hard coal, soft coal or lignites; and to-day when coal prices are pressing so heavily upon us it is very important, and it will become increasingly important, to find relief from this burden. We have billions of tons of coal east of us, and we have billions of tons of coal west of us, but in this the greatest province, the richest province, the most populous province, there is not one ton of coal. Now, underlying the western provinces there are billions of tons of lignite, which, our scientists tell us, can be transformed into coal almost equal to the Pennsylvania anthracite coal,-and that coal is within our own country. What an excellent thing it would be if the money that we are now sending, and will send, to the United States for hard coal could be kept within Canada; could be used in the purchase of the anthracite which now lies beneath our western prairies. I have no doubt that within a few years this will take place, because its practicability has already been demonstrated.
Potash is one of the things which we must have if we are to continue as an agricultural nation. Potash is one of the great things which made it possible for Germany to raise the field products which she raised, immense salt deposits have recently been discovered in Nova Scotia, and there are other salt deposits throughout Canada. There is some potash in these salt deposits. It is possible, therefore, that we shall be able to develop the potash industry within our own country.
Electric smelting is only in its infancy. If it were possible to harness the great water-powers of our country and smelt the iron ores to which I referred a few minutes ago, we would keep more than one hundred million dollars of good Canadian money within Canada. Go down to the lumber
sections of our country and you will see thousands upon thousands of tons of sawdust banked in the river valleys and wherever saw mills have been or are situated- absolutely going to waste. Now, any scientific man will tell you that that sawdust is a great potential asset; all that is required is the scientific knowledge to tackle the problem and to take from that material some of the commodities which it contains and which we could use. If we had a research institute in this country, with men, with money, and with the necessary apparatus, we could accomplish great work along this line.
The explosive engine has revolutionized traffic. Without the explosive engine you could not have automobiles; without it you could have no aerial navigation; without it no aeroplane could rise into space. But the explosive engine is almost altogether, if not entirely, dependent upon gasoline. Any person who has studied this question will tell you that, according to the opinion of scientific men of the United States, the end of the deposits of petroleum in that country is already in sight. I have not a doubt in my mind that within the lifetime of men who are now within the sound of my voice, the petroleum deposits of the United States will have become exhausted. What then? Some other fuel will have to take the place of petroleum, or gasoline, one of its products. What fuel is most likely to do that? Industrial alcohol. Here is a great field for our research institute.
The oil shales of Canada offer another field for research and experiment. Billions of tons of oil shale from which petroleum can be extracted may be found in the Maritime Provinces. Or, we have still another resource-straw, which is now being burned every year on our prairies, can be transmuted into gas which can be used for power.
We are trying to establish in this country the flax industry. Science, applied to that industry, by cultivating germs which will be placed in tanks with the flax fibre may hasten the retting process and make it possible to produce flax more cheaply, as we must do if we are to compete with the Irish and Belgian products. So with fish refuse -and I might go on indefinitely, but I shall not do so.
I wish to refer, before closing, to a few things that science has done. I shall not elaborate upon what Watt did in the development of steam; Farraday in the development of electricity; Pasteur in the

application of science to the development of the silkworm industry in France, and to the destroying of a disease which killed the sheep of France many years ago. Then we have Graham Bell with the telephone and Kelvin with the compass; and we have wireless telegraphy. iNot long ago an American magazine asked its readers to give them a synopsis of what they considered to be the seven wonders of the modern world. From the replies to these inquiries the following were selected as the seven wonders of the modern world:	Wireless
telegraphy, the telephone, the aeroplane, radium, antiseptics, antitoxins, and the seventh was divided between spectrum analysis and X-rays. All of these, Mr. Speaker, with the exception of antiseptics- even that was introduced not many decades ago-have come into being within our own lifetime.
We have heard a great deal about the paper industry; about what a wonderful thing the pulp industry is in our own country. Do you know how that industry originated? A French naturalist named Beamur was one day walking through the fields of France when he observed a wasp's nest constructed of paper and like material produced by the insects by the mastication of wood fibre and other substances. The naturalist had the imagination to see that this material could be used as paper, and from that simple observation has arisen the whole pulp industry of the world. This gives you a slight idea, Mr. Speaker, of the possibilities of science.
Then, take calcium carbide, the discoverer of which, Mr. Wilson, lived for years in our city. Calcium carbide produces acetylene gas. Many parts of our coasts are lighted with acetylene gas; the miners use acetylene gas in the lamps which they carry in their hats.
A few years ago a girl in Colorado was washing some ore sacks in which ore belonging to her brother had been carried. She noticed in the soap suds some small particles of metal floating on the bubbles. She told that to a scientist; the scientist developed the idea, and to-day you have tha flotation process throughout the length and breadth of this land and in the United States as well.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, permit me to qhote from Buckle as to the value of science, scientific men and scientific ideas:
The discoveries of great men never leave us ; they are immortal. They contain those eternal truths which survive the shock of empires, outlive rival creeds and witness the decay of suc-
[Mr. A. Thompson. 1
cessive religions. To the discoveries of genius we owe all that we now have; they are for all ages and all times; never young, never old, they bear the seeds of their own life ; they flow on in a perennial stream ; they are essentially cumulative and thus influence posterity and after the lapse of centuries produce more effect than they were able to do even at the moment of their promulgation.


Mr. J. J. DENIS (Joliette):: Mr. Speaker, I am fully sensible of the difficulties which the subject now under discussion presents, and were it not for my desire, as a member of the committee which is now reporting to the House, to contribute in my humble way to the discussion, I should certainly have abstained from adressing the House on this occasion.
I offer my compliments to the chairman of the committee for the splendid work which he has accomplished in connection with the subject of the resolution now before the House, which, if adopted, will result in the carrying on of a work of great benefit to the country. This is a question into which politics do not enter at all. It is a question upon which every member can feel perfectly free to express his opinion. What is asked is that a national research institute be established in Canada in order to promote scientific and industrial research generally, which includes a great many subjects, as has been pointed out by the mover of the resolution (Mr. Cronyn). To the casual observer it might appear that this project is a luxury, a sport, something of purely academic interest; but such is not the ease. Now the war is over we have to cope with the afterwar conditions, and we must not lose sight of the fact that since the war, and even during the war, the different nations of the world have entered upon a wild race to capture the trade of the world and the predominant position in commerce. Even while the war was on and the battlefields of Europe were soaked with blood, the nations had the foresight to appreciate that immediately the war was over this race for the world's trade would be begun. The United States were in a peculiarly advantageous position in this respect, because they only entered the war in its last year practically, and thus were enabled to make preparations which the other nations that had been engaged in the war from the beginning were unable to make. From the report of the Special Committee on Scientific Research we see that Great Britain, France, Italy, the Commonwealth of Australia, New Zealand, the United States, Germany, and Japan, in fact practically all the civilized nations of the world, have re-

cognized since the war is over, or had recognized before the war, the necessity of scientific research in promoting the trade and commerce of their respective countries. Before the war Germany perhaps more than any other nation had travelled in the fields of scientific research, and that is one of the reasons why, rightly or wrongly, she was looked upon as the land of culture. Germany had astonished the world with her marvellous inventions, and it is not too much to say that through her .many inventions she had achieved the prosperity through which she was passing when she declared war on the world. Her success in invention continued through the early stages of the war, and in fact all through it. We all remember how, in the month of April, 1915, suddenly 'and without warning, Germany developed that great gas attack which heralded a new phase in the war. Of course, the use of gas was strictly forbidden by all the rules of war, and no civilized nation had ever attempted to use it up to that time, but the fact remains that Germany had in her possession secrets which the other nations did not possess, or at all events, not to the same extent. We all remember how when these poisonous gases were let loose on our armies, the Allies could noit find out their exact composition, but immediately scientists began investigating and determined their composition, and in order to offset the unlawful advantage which Germany had thereby gained the Allies in turn were compelled to invent and manufacture new gases to be used against the German armies. They had also to invent appliances to resist the gases by which they were attacked. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, where would the Allies have been at that time of perplexity if they had not had in their midst scientists and scientific institutions that could devote themselves at once to a study of these gases and devise a protection against them? Germany did other things. We know that before the war she had practically a monopoly of the incomparable dyes which she was selling to the whole civilized world. That is surprising, because one would naturally have expected England to be the place where these [DOT]dyes were manufactured. In the field of war Germany also had her Zeppelins, her submarines, and that wonderful cannon with a range of 75 miles with which she bombarded Paris in the forever-famous offensive of March, 1918. All through the war Germany brought out new inventions from time to time, and these inventions were so numerous and called into being so many devices on our side in order to coun-138
teract them that General Joffre is reported to have said after leaving his army for three or six months he would not be able to lead them any more because he had not kept abreast of the many new developments in warfare.
Germany not only had marvellous inventions of destruction, but her scientific institutions were so advanced that she would have been able to capture the trade of the world had she not committed the blunder of declaring war and trying to subdue mankind by force of arms. The civilized world to-day is determined that no nation shall be allowed to repeat the attempt which Germany launched in 1914, and it i.s generally recognized now that if trade is to be gained it must be not through war but through peaceful methods, by the development Of indnstries, the intensive prosecution of agriculture, and the exploitation of every resource which a progressive nation can make use of.
And this is just where the question of scientific research becomes important. We are not asking for the establishment of an institution to destroy humanity as the Germans did; we are trying to produce wealth for the benefit of the nation. I hope there will be no serious objection to the proposal now before us, but if there is it can only be in relation to the financial considerations involved. It might be argued that while the proposal is one that is well worthy of consideration there is not sufficient means to take any practical steps in the matter. Well, so far as this objection is concerned, I ithink every hon. member will realize that scientific research is neither a luxury nor a sport; nor is it a subject of purely academic interest. As was said a moment ago by 'the mover of the resolution, scientific research is a cold-blooded business proposition, and the motion which is under consideration is nothing if ndt extremely practical. Our public delbt is enormous and we say that we do not know how we shall make ends meet; and some hon. members might conclude that as our expenditures are so high at the present time it is not advisable to give effect to the recommendations which have been made in this matter. Well, Sir, I isay that the public debt is certainly enormous-, and we are confronted with a great problem to provide the necessary revenue. But from the premises I draw an altogether different conclusion. If we are ever going to discharge the public debt of this country our only hope lies in the development of our natural resources This is the only way in which we shall b s able



to pay the huge debt we incurred during the war, and this proposed institute fof scientific research, far from adding to the burdens which we already have to hear, will, I am sure, prove a valuable asset, and the benefits that will accrue from its operation will more than offset the expenditures that may be made fen connection with it. The Government has recently undertaken a shipbuilding programme which is costing us something like $60,000,000. Whatever objections there may be to this undertaking, a majority of the members of this House have expressed their beliel that Ithe expenditure of this $60,000,000 on ships will be a benefit to the country. We have also acquired the property of the Grand Trunk Bailway Company. The debate on that subject was long, and although we on this side of the House pronounced against the transaction, nevertheless a majority of the members regarded this matter also as beneficial to the Canadian nation, and evidently they believe that the expenditure of $500,000,000 will prove a very wise one. A year or two ago Canada lent considerable sums of money to Bon mania, Greece and other foreign states, and this is a matter that is open to very much debate; very diverse views may be held in regard to it; hut the fact remains that the Government considered it a sound policy and one that would he advantageous to the people of Canada to lend money to those countries. I cite these stupendous undertakings in order to show that the question of money is not the most serious obstacle. The question is nolt: What expenses will he involved in the new institution?-but: What revenue will the country derive from its operation? A convincing answer to this question was given in the eloquent speech made by the mover of the resolution, and no1 one who heard that speech could fail to realize what an enormous advantage the establishment of a Scientific Research Institute must be. I shall not attempt to go into details; one could only touch a few of the multitude of questions that would arise in the consideration of this subject. This proposed institution could deal with an infinitude- of matters. As an example we might take the exploitation of our coal fields, as mentioned a moment ago. At this time, when we are paying $1.10 for every dollar's worth of goods we buy in the United States, we are actually buying from that country coal to the amount of $70,000,000 a year. If through the process of scientific research we could find a way by which our soft coal -in Canada, of which we have an immeasureable 
quantity, could be utilized, if but partly, in place of the coal which we now import from the United States, through this item alone the expenditure which this new bureau might involve would be repaid tenfold.
I wish once more to offer my congratulations to the hon. member for London for the magnificent work he has done. I would not take the responsibility of saying that he has been the only man in this country who ever thought of having a Bureau of Scientific Research. Others probably have had the same idea, but he has the merit-the great merit-of being the first member of this House to take this question into his own hands, to follow it up, and to give his whole time to it.
I am aware that he even went to the United States to make a personal study of the matter. The hon. member, with the knowledge and accomplishments that we all know him to possess, was convinced from the outset that such a scheme could only be beneficial to the country, and, being anxious to serve his country, he has spared neither time nor effort to accomplish what is now before the House.
I say therefore, Sir, that I hope this House will find itself unanimous on this point. I am only speaking for myself, hut from what I can see my friends on this side of the House are warm on this subject and are ready to endorse it.. From what I can see members on the other side of the House are ready to support the motion, and it would be a great satisfaction, I am.sure, for my hon. friend from London, this House, and the country generally, if we could say to-night that the House had accepted unanimously the motion which is now under consideration.


Mr. P. McGIBBON (Muskoka):: in Canada. When you consider that the whole fishing industry of the Dominion only represents a value of about $40,000,000, and that the value of the waste products alone is $10,000,000, you can see how science applied to an industry of that kind may have very profitable results.
I might also instance the baking industry to show the value of scientific research. A scientist in the United States, in seeking substitutes for sugar in the yeast, made a discovery which nets one firm over there no less than half a million dollars a year, and they were so appreciative of the fact that they gave the discoverer a gratuity of no less than $35,000.
We are also told that in the perfecting of what is called the tungsten lamp we have an annual saving in electrical power of over $2,000,000,000. These are instances of discoveries which, when applied to the great industries of this country, or any country, may produce a great monetary reward.
Another example I might mention is that of the great glass industry of the United .'States. Potash salts were used in connec-lion with this industry, supplies of which were obtained from Germany. When war broke out that source of supply was cut off and it was thought for a time that the industry would be paralysed. However, they got their scientists to work and very shortly they produced a substitute and the industry was able to carry on its operations.
I might go on enumerating case after case where the application of science has been, and is to-day, of very great material value to the industries of this country. Up to the present time, Canada has no research institutions-we have practically been living off the brains of the world. I hope the Government will take this fact very seriously into consideration and give to our industries the advantages that they should have in order to enable them to compete with the other industries of the world. We have great natural resources in Canada with almost unlimited possibilities. We have, for example, as has been referred to already to-night, the important pulp industry, from which has been developed your great cellulose industry. Cellulose, I might say, is the basic product in the cell structure of all vegetable life, and without it you would have no food for either animal or man. Now, it has been found that by treating our pulpwood with caustic soda, pulp is produced. That treated with sulphates and sulphites under pressure produces other material. For example, the

artificial silk industry has its basis there. We find that industry producing an article which takes on very intensive dyes, and this artificial silk industry in the United States was worth last year no less than $35,000,000. The treating of cellulose with nitric acid produce nitro-cellulose compounds, which were so important to us during the war. One could go on endlessly with the discoveries in connection with different industries-discoveries which may possibly result in increasing our wealth almost beyond our dreams.
Another example I might mention is the treatment of the waste products of the sawmill and the pulp mill by utilizing an experiment which was made by a scientist many years ago. This scientist found that by treating some old linen with sulphuric acid he produced a species of sugar, and by the fermentation of that sugar we get ethyl alcohol. By using the liquor from the pulp mills and the sawdust from the sawmills, we get ethyl alcohol which sells to-day at $7 a gallon. A load of sawdust, worth only 50 or 75 cents, will yield 10 gallons of ethyl alcohol, 95 per cent in strength, and a bushel of grain,-worth, roughly speaking, $1.50-will produce about two and a quarter gallons. Hon. gentlemen will therefore see the possibilities of science when applied to any industry. I could go on for an hour giving examples of how science applied to one industry and another will produce untold wealth.
I hope that the Government will delay no longer in establishing this Research Council and providing it with thoroughly equipped buildings and adequate help. I am glad to bear witness to-night to the efficiency of the gentleman at the head of the council, who has made a world-wide reputation through research. I know personally that he has refused the presidency of no less than five universities, and was asked to put in an application for the Chair of Physiology in the great University of Glasgow. I think we are fortunate indeed in having a man of his calibre to organize and direct this Research Council. I hope the Government will support him and accord that support at once. It is only by making practical application of the discoveries made by scientists that the industries of Canada can reap the benefit of them and the country can attain its proper status among the commercial nations of the world.


Mr. H. P. WHIDDEN (Brandon):: It
ought not to be hard for any hon. gentleman here to support the motion for the adop-

tion of this report. Time will not permit the mention of more than one or two of the many reasons why one is particularly interested in the proposed establishment of a Bureau of Standards and a Research Institute for the Dominion of Canada at the present time. Some Canadian people may think that the greater universities in our country should care for this work. It is not their function to do this form of work. They are not financially conditioned to provide the equipment. It is for them to furnish the researchers who will be selected, if an institute of this kind is established by the Government, and who will bring to their respective university mothers fame and distinction because of the further work which they carry on-not to show their scholastic attainments and their ability as discoverers but to show their capacity for furthering the development of the great natural resources of our country of which so much is being said in these days but for the scientific development of which so little is being done.
We are not trespassing in any way upon the field of university educational endeavour ; we are doing that which .Canada should do in its own interests. May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that Canada will need in the next generation enough researchers to introduce the great principles of conservation in connection with the carrying out of purpose, (f) as contained in the report submitted by the chairman of the committee (Mr. Cronyn). That purpose is described to he:
Researches undertaken to promote the utilization of the waste products of industry.
Our wealth will be greatly increased if we are prepared to convert the millions otf dollars' worth of waste now unreclaimed and unconserved.
The hon. member for Muskoka (Mr. Me-Gibbon) has said that we have been too long trusting the brains of other parts of the world for leadership in research. And yet, Mr. Speaker, Professor McLennan-a most distinguished witness before the Special Committee of last session-told us of the magnificent qualifications of graduates of our Canadian universities who assisted him, an employee of the British Government, on the war-time research work of a most important character; and as a result of the work done by him, assisted by these young researchers, practical scientific young men, the enemy was handled in a way that otherwise would have been impossible for months. It is even more important in times of peace that we should make provision for our sons, and our daughters, too, -who will be ready to become researchers and so aid the great industrial concerns of our country-to develop those resources and to conserve to the very best end possible those interests and that wealth which are within our reach and possession.
It may be that the day of the production of the outstanding and conspicuous genius is past; the discoverers, the releasers of new found principles may not be increased in numbers in the coming generation; but Canada has already demonstrated that she is capable of producing young men and women who, if given the opportunity, are abundantly able to make use of the discoveries already at hand and so to recombine them that practical results will easily be within the range of attainment.
I am sure, Mr. Speaker that we all hope that the Government will very favourably consider the report that has been submitted to us by this committee for adoption.


Mr. W. D. COWAN (Regina):: Mr. Speaker, I promise you that I will be exceed. ingly brief-in fact, at this time of night I would not say anything at all after the very conclusive speech made by the hon. member for London (Mr. Cronyn), were it not that I feel it is advisable in the interests of our country that we rally all the support possible to the hon. member and his committee in their efforts to improve conditions in Canada.
As I see this report of the Committee of Scientific and Industrial Research, the adoption of which is moved by the member for London, the recommendation can be reduced to a very small compass indeed. They simply recommend that this Parliament establish a national brain for advising and directing that industrial expansion which we have all been so long wanting and clamouring for; they recommend that we establish a national brain for advising and directing that greater agricultural development which is so desirable; they recommend that we establish a national brain for advising and directing the development of our national resources which have been so much discussed. We have the brain power; there is no question about that. Individually we possess it; but collectively-well, we have absolutely nothing. And the purport of the proposal now is that we shall unite our people in one great national movement to secure 'the advantage of the brain power which our own people possess.
For the last two years particularly we have been clamouring for the development


Mr. MICHAEL STEELE (South Perth):: Mr. Speaker, only the very great importance of this subject would seem to justify me in taking up a few minutes of the time of the House at this late hour, but at the risk of interfering with the comfort of members I wish to add to what has already been said, a few words in support of the adoption of the report of the committee which has been so ably presided over by the hon. member for London (Mr. Cronyn), and which report has been supported tonight by a number of very excellent addresses.

One of the most urgent calls to Canada to-day is to develop its vast natural resources, to reach out for the most scientific methods of using those resources in industry, and to further the utilization of the vast amount of waste products of our industries. When we begin to feel, as we have scarcely yet felt, the keen pressure of the great economic burden imposed on this young country by our participation in the great war, Canadians will have a sharp awakening and will shake off the lethargy and apathy regarding this great question. We must see that that awakening does not come too late. The world to-day is calling for our foodstuffs, our minerals and their products, our timber, and for numerous other articles which are the product of this country.
Never in past history has such a favourable time been offered for the development of our resources. The demand is urgent, prices are high. The door of national opportunity is ajar. The chance now offers for Canada to enter. We have the resources, the energy, the capital, the labour. We need science applied to the untouched stores of our national and natural wealth to transform these vast resources into actual values in order that we may the more easily bear our war burden.
The war has opened a new era, and Canada, whose day is just beginning, has more to expect from the auspicious age that is dawning for the world than almost any other nation. To achieve great things in the new peace it is as necessary to be in the highest state of preparedness as it was for achieving great things in the war.
The recent great war has been followed by a trade war. As far as possible every country is putting its industrial house in order with a view to holding its place in the coming commercial struggle. In many countries increased attention is being devoted to scientific research as an instrument of enhanced industrial power. To-day modern methods are essential to success in industry. The manufacturer rapidly recognized that pure science is a practical thing, and that science and industry are complements of each other. To the scientist at least it is very apparent that the enormously rich undeveloped resources of Canada cannot be utilized to the best advantage of the Canadian people unless our industries have the assistance of thoroughly trained scientific experts.
While the war illustrated that scientific research was of vital concern, so it will [Mr. .Steeled
demonstrate that it is in peace just as vital to the national safety. Let us for a moment look at somq of the things science did for us in this war-and I wish to add my word of praise for the splendid part played by the scientists of Canada. It is probably unknown to the Canadian people what an important part was played in the successful scientific operations of the war by the men. of scientific training who went from Canada to 'Great Britain. Prior to the recent conflict, America and Canada were supplied almost entirely by Germany with synthetic drugs and chemicals, with dye stuffs and with potash. That is all changed, and we through the efforts of our scientific experts, are now quite independent of Germany for all these products.
Take potash, for example. Until 1915, when Germany placed an embargo on potash export, the whole world was supplied from the mines in Saxony, and after the supply from Germany was stopped the price rose from $40 per ton to from $350 to $500 per ton, making it practically impossible for the. Canadian or American farmer to utilize it. This created a great need, and scientists set to work. A certain scientific man undertook to preserve* the orange groves of Southern California from destruction by dust from cement plants, and during his experiments discovered thiat cement dust contained large quantities of potash which could be extracted in quantities as great as If lb. per barrel of cement, or a total possible of 75,000 tons per year from United States and Canadian plants; thus discovering a new source of potash which supplied some of the lack. Blast furnaces also* show large quantities of potash salts in the waste gas from the furnaces. This is estimated to produce 500,000 tons per year. Potash is also obtained from kelp on the Pacific coast. There are large quantities of feldspar in Canada, which also contains more or less poltaish. AH these sources, practically utilized, have provided the means of supplying the needs of Canada with all the potash that is at present required. In that way mien p'f science overcame the meed tor German potash.
To illustrate in a more practical way the value of 'scientific research, perhaps I can choose no better method than to give some examples of what has been done, and if I quote American examples it is because they provide better illustrations than any in Canada. We can often learn from the operations of private enterprise, and these illustrations which I intend to give to the House to-night are the efforts of private

enterprise to improve their conditions through the utilization of science.
Prior to the war America produced none of the finest optical glass; that all came from Germany. When the supply was cut off the research men of Bauseh and Lomb of Rochester went to' work and produced a glass equal to the 'best previously imported.
The General Electric Company of Schenectady keeps a laboratory at an annual cost of $500,000, and employs 75 investigators, all experts. One product of this laboratory was the tungsten lamp, ithe general use of which effedtis a saving of probably several hundred millions of dollars every year in the cost of our electric lighting. To show what value this company places on scientific research, let me say thalt in 1918 this company expended $2,000,000 on research work.
Let us see what some other concerns are doing in this line of work. The Dupont Company, of Wilmington, Delaware, established a research laboratory in 1908, and in that year expended $200,000 on research work. In 1918, a war year, the company spent $2,000,000; from 1912 to 1915 they expended $1,200,000, in research; .and by so doing they claim they effected a saving oi $14,000,000. They now employ 1,100 chemists.	.
The Eastman Kodak Co. employs 40 research workers at an annual cost of $150 -
000.
The Western Electric Company, of New York, spent in 1918, a war year, $2,500,000 in research work.
A well known chemist in the United States was approached by a group of firms who had spent $100,000 on a problem without results. They told him they were willing to spend $100,000 more and to wait five years for a solution of the problem. Three research men were put to work and 'Solved the problem ait a icoist of only $2,000.
Forty years ago cotton seed by-products were a dead waste. To-day they are worth over $300,000,000 per year. The research worker did it. Now, if any private enterprise feels justified in spending large sums because returns are being obtained that warrant these expenditures and if private Concerns obtain such results from their investments and their efforts I see no reason why Canada should hesitate in embarking on work of this kind.'
Let me quote Dr. Stratton of the United States Bureau of Standards for further illustrations. He says:
If there is any one good which has come to the United States out of the war it is their scientific industrial development.
And further he says:
One of the problems of builders and architects has been to know the strength of steel required for structural work. The Bureau of Standards by actual tests established standards upon which all buildings, bridges, shipbuilding, etc., can be carried on with safety. It is estimated that in this connection the amount saved to the industries in one year by preventing faulty construction will pay for all the experimental work of the whole Bureau many times over.
Let us look at>
Canada for a moment in connection with the fuel question of this country. At this time of our country'3 history, when the fuel problem is becoming acute and when a substitute for American coal is eagerly sought, it is most gratifying to know that our own Canadian scientific workers have made very satisfactory progress in so modifying our lignites of the western provinces as to make them available for heating the homes of Western Canada. There is every prospect that in the near future the immense fields of lignite in the West will be commercially available; and thus will be solved one of the great problems of that western country at an immense industrial advantage to Canada and a vast saving to our people.
The problem in Canada to-day is very different from what it was ten years ago. There is a great deal of difference in conditions when coal is sold at $15 a ton from the conditions that existed when it was sold at $6 a ton, and this one question alone, it seems to me, is sufficient to warrant the Government in going any length and in making any expenditure in order to make available the western coal for the people of that great and growing country. Let me quote the opinion of another man on this subject. I quote him because he represents that great body of citizens of Great Britain, the Labour Unions. About one year after the beginning of the war there was issued a white paper signed by Arthur Henderson, then a member of the British Cabinet. In that is found the following:
It is impossible to contemplate without considerable apprehension the situation that will arise at the end of the war unless our scientific resources have previously been enlarged and organized to meet it.
It appears incontrovertible that if we are to advance or even maintain our industrial position we must as a nation aim at such a development of scientific and industrial research as will place us in a position to expand and strengthen our industries and to compete successfully with the most highly organized of our rivals.
I advocate the establishment in Canada of a Scientific Research Institute for two chief general reasons:

First:	We need it for the development
of our vast natural resources. Nature has been most lavish with her gifts to Canada. She makes no mistakes, but having given unto us so bountifully she expects us to utilize what she has bestowed upon us. Many of our natural resources are not easily made available for the use of our people, but one of the most powerful weapons available to man for the solution of Nature's problems is scientific research. As I said before, we require the development and large utilization of out natural resources to enable us . to more easily carry our war burden, and for that reason research has become to us a fundamental and patriotic duty which can neither be ignored nor neglected without imperilling our national welfare. It will better enable us to increase production and eliminate waste.
Second: We require such an Institute as an aid to Canadian industry. Efficiency and science must go hand in hand if industry is to attain its best place. Just as science forged the most effective weapons of the late war' so she must forge the weapons of industry. Without proper means for research our industries will be heavily handicapped in their endeavours to compete with their foreign rivals. If an American farmer reaped his crop with a self-binder and the Canadian farmer with the old-fashioned sickle the Canadian would be inviting economic death. Science is the self-hinder of the crop of industry. Let us make use of it.
There is much talk of Capital and Labour these days in connection with industry. It is gradually dawning on men's minds that there is a third force in making industry successful, viz: management.
But there is a fourth:
To these three, Capital, Labour and Management, we must now add Science.
I desire to congratulate the hon. member for Joliette (Mr. Denis) on the very excellent remarks he made to-night on this subject. As a representative of that great province, which is so rapidly advancing in industry, I believe he has given a lead to his fellow-members from Quebec on this question. It almost seems that he has a vision of the future greatness of that province as one of the large industrial centres of this country. That position, can be attained effectively and satisfactorily only through the agency of science. I am very much pleased to have heard the hon. member add his word of commendation of this plan now proposed.

In conclusion, let me say that one of the most- urgent duties of the Canadian people to-day is the application of science to the development of our natural resources and to the building up of our industries. These will bring to this country a new era of progress and prosperity.
I therefore join with those who have already spoken in urging upon the Government as strongly as I can the necessity and advisability of adopting the report and carrying out the recommendations which it has laid before the House. It is not a matter of expenditure; this is an investment which will return to the country a hundredfold all that is invested.


Mr. T. M. M. TWEEDIE (West Calgary):: committees, while they are eminent in the various professions, and occupations in which they are engaged, are men who have been serving this country in that capacity for the last five years free of charge. They are men who have other duties to perform, they are men who cannot be expected to go into detail, and deal with each of these questions which are submitted; they can only advise the Government and, to a very limited extent, those who are engaged in these industries. I submit that, as an appreciation of the work which these men have done during the past five years, and in view of the necessities of the time, the Government should at once proceed with the establishment of this Bureau of National Research in the Dominion, and place at its disposal an appropriation which would at least enable the work to be started this year.


Mr. W. K. BALDWIN (Stanstead):: Inasmuch as on a former occasion,, when blaming the Government for the vast expenditure of money, I advocated the creation of a Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, I think I should be guilty of negligence to-night if I allowed the opportunity to pass without saying a few words in support of the present proposition. We know that this country is a land of most wonderful resources, the fringe of which we have scarcely more than touched. Iron is an article for which there is no substitute-which is used by everybody throughout the wide world-yet we know that we are importing ninety-five per cent of the supplies we need from foreign countries. The states of Minnesota and Michigan, and I believe Alabama, are rich in iron deposits; but in our opinion there is untold wealth in the iron ores of Ontario and Quebec as well as of the Maritime Provinces. We have schools of science to which our young men resort but to perfect themselves they go to the Massachusetts Technical School. We have in Canada enormous water-powers and great mineral and agricultural wealth. Reference has been made to the by-products of our industries and to the fact that many sources of potential wealth are at present not utilized. We need in this country a Department of Scientific Research that will minister to the needs of our young men and keep them at home. We know that during the past two months several of our brainy men have left this country-men whom we could ill afford to lose-because we could not give them adequate salaries. I believe the

patriotism and love of country which exists among our young men is such that, after they have received scientific and technical training we could retain their services could we only provide them with two-thirds of the stipend they would derive in the United States.
Attention has been drawn to-night to the use that is being made of sawdust, an article that formerly was dumped into our rivers and constituted a menace to navigation. I believe there is at present being organized in Montreal a company to work up the by-products of pulp-mills. That company, I understand, are already at work with their suction pumps and turning out a valuable commodity.
The establishment of this Bureau is a splendid move, and as a business man 1 shall support the measure. To many of us the subjects relating to science are extremely technical in their nature. For example, even in the case of well-informed men, it is easy to puzzle them by asking them to define electricity. We have no satisfactory definition of what it is; we know that it is a manifestation of nature.
I have been able to puzzle pretty brilliant men who have spent two or three years in scientific study, some of whom have graduated in science, by asking them what a kilowatt is.
In establishing this department let us go cautiously Do not let us squander money, but let us start by building upon a firm foundation. Then we can afford- the aid that will be necessary to a growing department to assist in developing the great resources of this country and the tremendous possibilities that are within our reach. I am very pleased to support the measure.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: After a week of political controversy it is a somewhat pleasing experience to be able to speak, even at this late hour, upon a great national problem as to which there 'appears to be unanimity of thought and feeling Having begun the week by making a special plea to my right hon. friend (Sir George Foster) to permit us to adjourn at a reasonable hour each night, I shall on the present occasion make my remarks very brief. My reason for rising is that I do not wish to let this opportunity go by without in the first place extending my congratulations to the hon. member for London (Mr. Cronyn) for his very lucid and eloquent exposition of the report of the committee, and the exceedingly industrious, and earnest manner in which he has sought to further the committee's work, and to bring to the

attention of the Government and of Parliament the significance of the establishment of a National Research Institute for Canada. I desire also, Mr. Speaker, to lend to that project such support as a word from this side of the House may afford. One is greatly tempted-if one has any appreciation of the importance of scientific research in its relation not only ito production in industry, but also to the advancement of human well-being-to speak at considerable length upon a subject such as this; hut I shall resist the temptation except to the extent of one reference to What seems to me the significance in a large way of our consideration of this project at this particular moment. Two or three of the hon. gentlemen who have spoken this evening have referred to the great scientist, Pasteur, of the contribution which he made to industry and of how illuminating his work and his life have been in revealing, not only the service that science can render to industry, but, as I have already remarked, the service which it also renders to the advancement of human well-being. At the time of the foundation of the Pasteur Institute, in commemoration of his work, in Paris-I think it was in 1888-this great scientist was so overcome with the reception tendered him by the statesmen and scientists of France, that he gave to his son a document which he had previously prepared to read to the gathering, and in that document there appeared the following paragraph which 1 think, in a way, is epoch-marking in its significance:
" Two contrary laws seem to be wrestling with each other nowadays: the one, a law of blood and of death, ever imagining new means of destruction, and forcing nations to be constantly ready for the battlefield-the other, a law of peace, work, and health, ever evolving new means of delivering man from the scourges which beset him. The one seeks violent conquests, the other the relief of humanity. The latter places one human above any victory; while the former would sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives to the ambition of one. Which of these two laws shall ultimately prevail, God alone knows."
Since Pasteur uttered those words, we have seen something of the operation of the law of blood and of death. We have seen something of the ambitions of a single individual which have resulted in the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of lives. Clearly, we have now come to a time when we begin to see again the furthering in a large way of the operation of the law of peace, work and health, which seeks to relieve mankind of the burdens which oppress it and to advance human well-being and human progress.
Scientific research can be employed as the handmaid either of the forces of destruction or of those oif creation and advancement, and in this particular proposal which is feeing considered at the moment in the report which the committee has brought down there is presented to this country a project which will go far, I believe, towards a realization of the application of the law of peace, work, and health in all that pertains to our social, industrial, and commercial life. For that reason, Mr. Speaker, I should be sorry to let this occasion go by without expressing the hope that the report of the committee will not only be accepted unanimously-[DOT] as it is certain to be-but also that it will be carried out as speedily as possible once it is accepted by the Government.
There is another reason why I find particular pleasure in supporting this recommendation. When I had the privilege of being Minister of Labour it was my good fortune to have the opportunity of recommending to my colleagues the appointment of a royal commission on industrial training and technical education. That commission was appointed, and as hon. members know, a very valuable report was prepared by it, one section of which is devoted to this important question of industrial research. Were one anxious to suiplement what has been said this evening in support of the importance of an Industrial Research Institute one might quote at great length from this document issued by the Government, and which has recommended the very same kind of project so well emphasized by the committee that have given this matter such careful consideration.
Therefore, with the report of the Royal Commission and with the unanimous finding of a select committee of this House, it seems to me that there is little left for the members of this House to do but to express appreciation to the gentlemen who have worked so industriously, so carefully, and so thoughtfully in regard to this important subject, and to assure the Government that if the recommendations of the committee are carried out they will meet with the approval of every one.
One further thought occurs to me, speaking of industrial research in particular, and that is that this is a day when a great deal is being said about the importance of increased production. Men are too apt to think of production as being dependent wholly upon what economists used to

speak of as land, labour and capital, or natural resources, labour and capital, forgetting altogether the enormous significance, as regards production, of scientific research. And it is to emphasize what scientific research means, not in one direction only, but in all directions, that I am taking just a moment longer to refer to that point.
All of the work of labour is vastly enhanced and increased in its opportunity and in its rewards by the extent to which scientific research is applied to the problems of industry. The return to capital, and the possibility of greatly increased returns, is similarly enhanced; and so far as the community is concerned its well-being is also enhanced in the same way. I think in our discussion of commercial and industrial problems we are too much inclined to forget the work carried on in the libraries and laboratories by men who are little heard of in public, but who, after all, perhaps, more than any other class in society, are responsible for the progress of mankind. If the Government by establishing an institute of the kind suggested here can in this Dominion help to promote scientific research in ways which I hope will not only parallel and rival, but will in. some respects possibly outrun, what has been done in other countries, we shall not only contribute to our own industrial, social and commercial well-being, but we shall help, I believe in the advancement of other nations as well.
Let me say also that scientific reseach in industry is not only the handmaid of these different factors of production; it seems to me it is not less the handmaid, and the necessary handmaid, of governmental policies in such matters as transportation, commerce, immigration, colonization, or any other particular policy which relates to the commercial and industrial life of the country. Unless scientific research is applied in all of these particular branches, the outcome of any policy adopted by a government will never be what it should be in the development of the country's welfare.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, let me say that I particularly welcome what this report seems to suggest in the way of closer cooperation between the universities of our country and governmental administration. I think that everything is to be gained by having the universities and the government brought into close touch with each other. University men should take as large a part as possible in the affairs of their country, in its government and in the administration

of its departments, and our governments should, I think, do as much as they reasonably can to encourage and make possible the work of our universities on a scale which is befitting the great opportunities confronting them-and as one hon. member said this evening, there is no doubt whatever that our .universities are not in a position to cope single-handed with the great needs of scientific research. In promoting scientific research, the Government must co-operate with the universities, and I was glad to hear my hon. friend from London emphasize as clearly as he did, and in that fine, eloquent and, if I may so describe it, imaginative way he has of expressing himself, that the universities would receive a greater assistance through an Industrial Research Institute of this kind than could be possible without such an undertaking.
I have great pleasure indeed as a member of this House in supporting most heartily the recommendations of the committee. It is gratifying to see that those recommendations are unanimous. I think we owe a word of thanks to all the members of the committee, and especially to the 'chairman who has given so much of his time and thought to the work of that committee.


George Eulas Foster: What I have to say tonight will be exceedingly short.


Henri Sévérin Béland: And sweet.


George Green Foster: I wish I could in the brevity of my remarks make them as pithy in one direction as I am sure the Chairman of the Committee would wish; but there are limitations of course which we find ourselves in contact with, and which, whether we wish it or not, restrain in many ways the practical embodiment of the sympathies and goodwill of the Government.
I have been particularly pleased with the tone of the debate-not speaking of tone in the usual way, but in regard to the line of intelligent appreciation and presentation of the subject itself. Not merely a sentimental support has been given, but a support of insight and of real connection between the mind and the heart of the speaker and the principles of the subject under discussion.
As one heard successive speakers talking of the marvellous things which had been done by science, and which we ourselves had forgotten in a good many respects until they were brought to our attention to-night, one wondered why people run into other channels for the wonders of romance. Really

the greatest romances, particularly of the last centuries, have been found in the development of scientific thought and in the scientific research earned on by the quiet workers of the world. They come upon us one after the other; the story passes, and then we are apt to forget. When we have a summing up, such as we have had to-night, we are impressed with the wonderful phases of the development of humanity which has taken place during the last fifty, sixty or one hundred years.
As to the matter which is directly before us, I will spare the blushes of the member for London (Mr. Cronyn) by not reiterating what has already been said by many of those who have spoken. But while sparing his blushes, I do not want him to think that I do not in my heart thank him for the work which he and his willing and efficient committee have performed in connection with this matter and for the way in which they have presented the subject to us to-night. We must not forget, either, that during the l^st five years, as was mentioned by the member for Calgary West (Mr. Tweedie) we have been doing a little towards maintaining and extending the interest in this matter through the Advisory Research Council. Things of this kind proceed step by step,- here a little, and there a little. Without a doubt we are working up to the point where we shall have in Canada some such efficient mechanism as has been described here to-night. I wish we could work it out now, but there are considerations which make that difficult. I am not, however, without hope that we may, even this year, -make a beginning in the direction of carrying out the report-something, at least, which will be an earnest of the completion of the project as soon as possible. In a way, it is a kind of irony that the very thing which has made it particularly necessary that an impetus should be given to scientific research and the alliance of scientific effort with industrial development, the war, has so crippled us that we cannot do what we would like to do in this respect. Science does two things: it puts within the power of the destructive elements of war vast enginery and machinery for completing the destruction upon which it is bent, and almost at the same time it stretches out the hand of solace, comfort, help to the victims of the destruction which it has thus helped to create. If the war has made wounds, deep and gaping, and broad, and if science has helped to make those wounds, science to-day is putting all its resources and its effort into the healing of those wounds, into the
bringing of a normal period and, subsequently, a more progressive period of development in all these matters, not leaving out that which is probably the greatest good that can come from the development of science,-the betterment of the world and the greater wellbeing of all those who live in it. For after all, science is to he judged, not by the material development which it first brings about, but by the extent to which it promotes the comfort, happiness and uplift of the people; by the general good which it accomplishes for the world.
I want to reiterate my thanks and the thanks of the Government for the good work which hals been done by the member for London and his committee, and to assure them that it will not be allowed to pass without fruit. I hope that something may be done alt an early day; that if all we would like - to do cannot be 'accomplished, at least a beginning may be made. I shall bring the matter to the- attention of my colleagues, and I know that I shall have a sympathetic set of colleagues, whether or not we 'shall be table to cross all the ditches and make all the progress we would like to make at this particular time.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On motion of Right Hon. Sir George Foster the House adjourned at twelve o'clock (midnight).
Monday, May 10, 1920.