1919-05-12

* REPORTS AND PAPERS.

[Stage Direction]
Return of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents in connection with the application of the Shell Transport and Trading Company for the grant of certain oil lands.-Hon. Mr. Meighen.
Report of Overseas Military Forces of Canada for the year 1918.-Sir Edward Kemp.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Minister of the Interior) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 94, respecting Dominion Water-powers. He said:
The purpose of this Bill is to make a statutory foundation for the administration of Canadian water-powers in so far as those, water-powers are the assets of the Dominion, and for co-operation with the provinces in the administration of water-powers that belong to them.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. Mr. MEIGHEN moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 95, to assist returned soldiers in settling upon the land. He said:
This proposed legislation, as its name implies, is designed to assist returned soldiers in becoming settlers on land in Canada. In 1917 the Dominion Parliament passed the Soldiers' Settlement Act of that year which had the same general object in view, but the scope of whose operations was confined to lands owned by the Dominion. That is to say, the Bill did not make provision for the assistance of land settlement by soldiers, save to the extent that it provided an additional quarter-section for
[Stage Direction]
each soldier, as a soldier's grant over and above his homestead rights, and to the -further extent that it enabled assistance to "be given to soldiers owning land by way *of a loan upon those lands on the ordinary loan basis. The main purpose of the present legislation, in so far as it is additional to and beyond the Bill of 1917, is to provide a means of acquiring lands now held privately or by corporations, or indeed by governments, for the purpose of disposing of those lands to returned soldiers. A foundation for the work we are now doing under the Soldiers' Settlement Board was first laid on the 11th February last by an Order in Council which in its provisions is similar to the corresponding provisions of the Bill now introduced. However, beyond the powers which, were taken by *the Order in Council referred to, this Bill provides a system and machinery whereby lands may be acquired other than by agreement or purchase, viz:	compulsorily and by expropriation. These ex-propriatory clauses contain means whereby, under a settlement area scheme, the lands that are being retarded from cultivation are set aside as settlement areas, and are thereby made subject to the compulsory provisions of the Bill. I have gone far enough to show that the measure i$ most comprehensive, and indeed progressive, in its character. It is, I think, the most extended and progressive federal land settlement scheme that has yet been brought to my attention. It is a Bill of considerable length and will demand much of the attention of Parliament.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.	.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. LUOIEN CANNON (Dorchester):: I
desire to call the attention of the Government, and of the Minister of Marine in particular, to a piece of news which appeared in the press last week to the effect that the SS. Aquitania would land troops in Halifax, but would not go up the St. Lawrence river as far as Quebec on account of the very heavy marine insurance rates. I would like to know if the Government intend taking any measures to remedy such a condition of things?


Hon. C. C. BALLANTYNE (Minister of Marine):: I have not seen anything in the press of what the hon. member has just referred to, nor has the matter been brought to my attention. I will be very glad to look into it, and let my hon. friend know

as soon as possible. I am under the impression that the Aquitania draws too much water to go to Quebec, but I am not certain of that until I have made inquiry.



RE-OLA,SSIFIOATION OF CIVIL SERVICE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. CHARLES SHEARD (Toronto South) :: Is the Government in a position to state definitely to the House when the report of the 'Civil Service Commission on the subject on the re-classification of the service will be laid upon the Table?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: I am glad the
hon. gentleman has asked the question, as I intended to make a very brief statement upon the matter, il received this morning a telegram from the Secretary of the Postal Letter Carriers' Association, Mr. A. Mc-Mordie, of Toronto. I shall read that telegram and my reply thereto, which I think is quite comprehensive and fully covers the ground.
I might say that rumours have lately appeared in the press to the effect that a promise was given that the re-classification would be laid upon the table of the House, or introduced into Parliament, about the first of May. That is probably true; I think I made a statement myself to that effect. When I made that statement I was firmly of the opinion that the work of the Civil Service Commission would have been so far advanced that the classification report would be in the hands of Parliament by this time. However, that work up to the present moment was not fully completed, and it was therefore an utter impossibility for the Government to present the classification report to Parliament. Other statements have appeared in the press during the week to the effect that the classification would not be presented to Parliament during the present session of Parliament, but that it would be taken up at an adjourned session in the coming autumn, or at another session. This rumour, of course, is not correct; it is proposed that the classification shall be proceeded with during the present session. The telegram from Mr. McMordie to which I referred a moment ago reads as follows:
Much dissatisfaction amongst letter carriers, that the expectations of the Government as to Civil Service Commission report not materializing during the first week in May as promised. It is important that you give us definite statement now as to when this report will he submitted to the House of Commons.
To which I replied on May 12, as follows :

Your telegram eleventh received to-day. The work of classification by the Civil Service Commission is proceeding as rapidly as is humanly possible and nothing is being neglected to expedite this work. Classification work has taken a long time but it involved a stupendous task. The actual work is how about completed and a substantial proportion of schedules is printed. The printing is in two languages which involves also a translation but I think the printing will be wholly completed within fourteen days. On completion of printing a Bill to enact the classification will promptly be introduced into Parliament and advanced with all possible speed. I beg to assure your association that the work has been carried out with great earnestness since August last and it was not possible by any means to have had the work further advanced than it is although I was hopeful of its completion before this but I am satisfied no one is to blame for any delay. I hope your association will realize the Importance and comprehensiveness of the task and await the completion of the work which is now so nearly in sight.
I would like to say further, Mr. Speaker, that at the present moment the schedules are completed in the sense that all the preliminary work is done, and all that remains to be done prior to the introduction of the measure which will enact the classification, is the translation of the schedules and the printing. As a matter of fact, a very substantial proportion of the English translation is in print now, and also a very substantial proportion of the French translation is completed; and I am hopeful, as I have already stated, that within two weeks from to-day I shall be able to introduce a Bill providing for some amendments to the Civil Service Act and for the validation of the schedules.
Now, I wish to point out to the House- because this is a subject oF recent comment in the press and in some sections of the Civil Service-that the classification of the Inside and Outside Services is in all respects a stupendous task. It is the most comprehensive work of its character ever attempted by any country, and when it is finished it may well be regarded as the greatest accomplishment in 'this direction 'by any country.
The personnel of our Civil Service amounts to at least 50,000, and that is without taking into consideration the army and navy, our railway employees, the judiciary and some other branches of the public service. The classification work involved the making of 1,600 schedules, in the printing each page will take on the average about two and one half schedules, and when wholly printed it will mean a publication of six or seven hundred pages, which is quite a substantial volume. I wish also
to point out that a limited staff only could be employed in this work. I think it will be quite obvious that this work could not have been assigned to an unlimited number of men without substantial variations in principle being incorporated in the work, which would be very undesirable in settling the classification.
By way of comparison I might point out that some time ago the city of New York . made a classification of its Civil Service. The number of its employees was 60,000, slightly more than that of the Government of Canada, but I would imagine the work would be less complicated than our own. It took four years to complete that work, and it cost the city a great deal of money. As a further comparison I might mention the fact that a short time ago the state of New York made a classification of its Civil Service, which comprises 17,000 persons, and that took over two years. The Civil Service Commission of Canada have been employed since the first of August last in carrying out the directions given by Parliament in the Civil Service Act of last year, and I am sure every possible effort has been made and is being made to complete the work at an early date, and present it to Parliament for its consideration and, I hope, approval. With some slight knowledge of the vast deal of work which the commission has had to perform in connection with the classification I can confidently say that no complaint can fairly be made by the public or by any section of the Civil Service in regard to the time taken by the commission. However, as I stated a moment ago, I do expect that within two weeks I shall be able to present the report upon the classification of the Civil Service to Parliament and ask for approval of the same.
Before I sit down let me further point this out: When the classification with the schedules of salaries is approved by Parliament it will relate back to the beginning of the fiscal year; and if it happens that any members of the service are entitled under that classification to promotion in rank or in salary, the same will date back to the 1st of April last, and in that way no substantial wrong can be done to the personnel of- the Civil Service in the monetary sense by reason of an unexpected delay of a few weeks in the completion of the work.



MILITARY SERVICE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. McKENZIE:: Mr. Speaker, I notice that Bill No. 91, respecting the disqualifica-

tion of military defaulters, is marked on the Orders of the Day as printed in English and French, but on sending out for the Bill I find it is not available. I wish to bring to the notice of the Acting Minister of Justice that it is desirable to have the Bill distributed as early as possible.
There is another matter I wish to draw the minister's attention to. I understand that the Military Service Act has been amended to some extent by Orders in Council. Those orders may be available to hon. members, but at all events I have not got any of them, and in considering this Bill it would be well to have the amendments so made printed and distributed for the use of members.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: There is no desire to go on with the Bill in question until hon. members have an ample opportunity to study it. I will see that it is printed and distributed before we go on. Furthermore, the Orders in Council to which the hon. member refers are already bound with the Military Service Act, and I do not think there will be any difficulty in having them, as bound, distributed.



QUEBEC OFFICER CHARGED WITH EMBEZZLEMENT.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. H. B. MORPHY (North Perth):: I should like to know from the Acting Minister of Justice (Mr. Meighen) whether a certain officer in Quebec, who was charged with embezzling about five or six thousand dollars of the public money, was prosecuted and what disposition was made of the case?


Mr. SPEAKER:: I must ask the hon. member to put his question on the Order Paper. It is not a question involving policy nor affecting the country at large.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I might have prefaced my remark by saying that the matter is one of extreme urgent importance and one affecting the country at large, as I believe it to be.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I think the hon. gentleman should put his question on the Order Paper.



OVERSEAS FORCES.


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Sir EDWARD KEMP (Minister of Overseas Military Forces):: I have had the honour of laying on the table of the House to-day a report of the Overseas Military'Forces of

Canada for the year 1918. The report is available in the post office for members, and it is also, i believe, available for senators. I should like to absent myself from the House for about ten days or a little longer, more particularly for personal reasons, but on my return I shall be prepared to make a statement to the House with reference to the administration and operations of the Overseas Military Forces of Canada, and to touch upon those points which are of greatest public interest at the present moment.



LT.-COL. JENKINS' REPORT.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Maison-neuve):: Might I ask the Overseas Minister of Militia if the Jenkins report will be laid on the table of the House?


Albert Edward Kemp: I do not know to what my hon. friend refers. I have no such report.


Sir SAM HUGHES:: Did not Col. Jenkins, Medical Officer, submit to the Overseas Minister of Militia a report on the medical service overseas, and did he not go over one of the copies with the minister himself?


Albert Edward Kemp: 

PRIVATE BITES.


[Stage Direction]
given, they are not accorded any power beyond that which the ordinary citizen of Canada has.
House again in Committee on Bill No. 45, Mr. McKENZIE: What struck me as unto incorporate the National Wholesale usual was that a roving committee of that Grocers' Association, and recommending kind should have the right to put people on that the title of said Bill be changed to "An oath and then examine them. But if this Act to incorporate the Canadian Wholesale does not give them any power to swear a Grocers* Association."-(Mr. Sheard)-Mr. witness, I suppose they could send a eom-Boivin in the Chair.	mittee around and get statutory evidence
On section 12-Committees of Inquiry:	without any power at all.
Arthur Meighen: I understand that when the Bill was last before the Committee, the leader of the Opposition called attention to clause 11 as being undesirable, and suggested it should not have been allowed to pass by the Department of Justice. He also objected to certain features of clause 12. Upon inquiry, T find that clause 11 was struck out before the Private Bills Committee, and clause 12 was amended by striking out the words:
Upon oath (which oath any member of said committee is hereby empowered to administer).
-in the 37th and 38th lines. With that omission, which was made at the suggestion of the parliamentary counsel of the Private Bills Committee, I see no objection to the Bill from the standpoint of the Department of Justice.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The objection which I
took when the Bill previously was before the Committee was that it was an unusual departure to permit any private corporation doing business to establish a roving committee to travel through Canada with power to put people on oath and inquiie about the particular business the corporation is concerned in.


Arthur Meighen: That is taken out. The Committee cannot take evidence on oath at all. Not only is the portion in brackets struck out, but the words "upon oath" which precede that are also struck out.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: How will the section read as amended?


Arthur Meighen: It will read:
Such committees may examine any party who appears before them, and the evidence so taken may he used to assist the association in arriving at a decision with reference to the matter under consideration.
As the evidence is not taken upon oath, I see very little value in the clause, because any body of men in Canada may ask questions and make notes of the evidence they get on asking the questions. As long as power to take evidence upon oath is not


Arthur Meighen: Certainly.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: With that power taken
out, I suppose there is no objection to the clause.


Charles Sheard: As the Bill stands in my name, I might say that, according to my advice, the idea of this clause was only for the association to secure information regarding the trade, and in asking that the information be sworn to, they simply desired that it should be reliable. I have no objection to the amendment announced by the Acting Minister of Justice. The purpose will, I think, be solved by the association getting the information, their desire being only to secure reliable and accurate information.
Section as amended agreed to.
Bill as amended reported.



QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

[Stage Direction]
Mr. D'ANJOU:
1.	What remuneration did C. E. Mahon, of Vancouver, receive as returning officer for Bur-rard in connection with the last general election?
2.	What did he draw for expenses?
Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1. $600.
2. None.


BUST OF THE PRIME MINISTER.
Mr. PAPINEAU:: 1.	Has the Government purchased a marble bust of the Right Honourable Sir R. L. Borden? If so, what was the urgency or necessity of the expenditure therefor, during war time?
2.	(a) What has been done with the said bust, and (b) how much did it cost?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: I. On request of the Honourable the Speaker of the Senate, Mr. A. Laliberte, sculptor, of Montreal, was authorized on June 15th, 1914, to execute a marble bust of the Right Honourable the Prime Minister

to match the marble bust of the Eight Honourable Sir Wilfrid Launier already purchased by the Senate, but payment therefor was not made until delivery of the bust in October, 1915.
2.	(a) Stored away for safe keeping until the Senate Chamber in the Parliament Buildings is made ready to receive it; (b) $ 1,500.


CHARLOTTETOWN CONVALESCENT HOME.
Mr. SINCLAIR (Queen's) :: 1.	What was the total cost of building, repairing, equipping and purchasing the Convalescent Home in Charlottetown, P.E.I. ?
2.	Was the contract let by tender?
3.	If not, what did the labour cost?
4.	What did the material cost?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	$261,778.66.
2.	Yes.
3.	Answered by No. 2.
4.	Answered by No. 1.


NATIONAL SERVICE REGISTRATION.
Mr. MARCILE (Bagot):: 1.	What was the total Government expenditure in connection with National Service Registration for the month of June, 1918?
2.	What was the amount paid for each province?
3.	What was the amount paid for each county in the several provinces of Canada?


Hon. Mr. ROWELL:: 1, 2 and 3. Answered by the report of the Canada Registration Board which was tabled in the House of Commons, 9th April, 1919.


Mr. DESLAURIERS:: 1.	Why have the accounts of Mr. D. A. Leonard, notary, the Misses Rolande Dutrissac] Clementine Dutrissac, Ninette Dion, Laure Charbonneau, Anita Lagarde, Germaine Senecal, Bernadette Dupre, Antoinette Langelier, Clara Watters, Juliette Thibault and Rose Brouillet, in connection with National Service Registration, not been paid?
2.	Why have Dt. Laporte and M. Laurin not been paid for the rental of their premises in connection with the same work?


Newton Wesley Rowell: These questions are insufficiently stated. The Canada Registration Board cannot trace names.


Mr. SEGUIN:: 1.	When does the Government propose to pay the assistant registrars in the county of L'Assomption-Montcalm for the work which they performed, in connection with National Service Registration, in the month of June, 1918?
2.	Why are these accounts still unpaid?


Mr. ROWELL:: 1. All unpaid accounts will be settled immediately.

2. The funds to pay these accounts were remitted registrar who failed to carry out instructions.


WEIGHTS AND MEASURES-SALARIES.
Mr. DESLAURIERS:: 1.	What increases in salary, if any, have the Government provided for the Inspectors of Weights and Measures at Montreal, Toronto and Winnipeg, for the fiscal year 1919-29?
2.	Does the Government intend to grant the said inspectors a sufficiently substantial increase to enable them to live more comfortably.


Hon. Mr. MACLEAN:: 1.	The matter of increases for the present fiscal year is temporarily held over, pending the re-classification of the whole Weights and Measures Inspection Service by the Civil Service Commission.
2.	The matter is now in the hands of the Civil Service Commission.


INCOME TAX ACT.
Mr. ROBB:: 
ALLEGED MILITARY ESCORT OF ROMAN CATHOLIC BISHOP.
*Sir SAM HUGHES:: 1.	Has the Government knowledge of the fact that about fifteen soldiers under an officer armed with a revolver escorted a Roman Catholic Bishop in Toronto into a Greek Catholic Church on Sunday last week?
2.	By what authority were soldiers sent on sudh a mission?
3.	Why were soldiers sent instead of policemen?
4.	What explanation can be given for the use of soldiers under such circumstances?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	No.
2. Answered by No. 1.
3. Answered by No. 1.
4.	I am informed that the men who followed the Ruthenian priest into the church were returned demobilized men. Therefore, the military authorities had no control over them.


DRAFTEES AND ENLISTED MEN.
Mr. EULER:: *
1.	How many drafted men went overseas?
2.	How many men volunteered for service after the Military Service Act was passed?
Major-General MEWBURN:
1.	47,509.
2.	The number of men who volunteered for service after the Military Service Act was passed, other than Class 1 men who came under provisions of such Act, 29,007.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.

Mr. POWER:: 1.	Who is the Deputy Minister of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment?
2.	When was he appointed?
3.	What salary does he draw?
4.	Is he a returned soldier?
5.	If not, was any attempt made to obtain the services of a returned soldier?
6.	Has the present deputy minister any special qualifications which would fit him to deal with returned men and their problems?
7.	What educational experience has the present deputy minister?
8.	Is he familiar with principles of education?
9.	Why did Mr. Sedgeworth resign from the position of Director of Vocational Training?
10.	Did Mr. Sedgeworth have any disagreement with the minister or deputy minister on matters of policy affecting the welfare of returned men?
11.	How many people are employed on the Publicity Staff of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, and what salary is paid to each?
12.	What amount has been expended by this department during the past six months for publicity purposes?
13.	Is it true that only returned officers are offered the higher positions in this department?
14.	Were the previous appointments held by Mr. Sedgeworth and Mr. Robinson made through the Civil Service Commission?
15.	Has the position of Secretary of the Pension Board been advertised?


Mr. DESLAURIERS:: 1.	How many actions were taken against cold storage firms, companies or proprietors, for contravention of the food laws, since 1914?
2.	How many complaints were made against said companies or proprietors? ,
3.	What were the names of the firms against whom action was taken?
4.	What were the punishments, fines or reprimands imposed on such firms or persons?
5.	What are the details of the actions, warnings or punishments imposed on cold storage plants in Montreall, Quebec and Three Rivers during these years?


Mr. SINCLAIR (Antigonish and Guys-borough):: 1. Were prosecutions authorized by the Government against parties in the Province of Nova Scotia for neglecting to place War Revenue Stamps upon packages of Proprietary or Patent Medicine before the sale thereof, as required by the War Revenue Act, 1915?
2.	What person or persons were appointed to institute these prosecutions?
3.	How many prosecutions, if any, were brought?
4.	What solicitors were designated by the Government to conduct them?
5.	What are the terms of said solicitor's appointment?
6.	What was the gross amount of fines imposed?
7.	In what counties in Nova Scotia were such prosecutions brought?
8.	Who recommended the appointment of such prosecutors and solicitors?
UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR PAPERS Mr. DESAULNIERS:
For a copy of all reports, letters, memoranda, telegrams, plans and estimates 4n connection with the construction of a bridge over the River Batiscan, in the parish of St. Francois-Xavier de Batiscan, Champlain County.


Mr. ROBB:: For a copy of the lease or leases granting the use of some 10,000 acres of land of the St. Peter's Indian Reserve for a term of five years from the first of May, 1918, to Charles Bird and Jacob Jonnason, of St. Peters, and Rufus Stephen Benson and Rufus Henrickson, of Selkirk.



DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Hon. Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior), Bill No. 79, to amend The Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act was read the second time and the House went into Committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
On section I-Ss. 2 of s. 15 amended by making outfit and equipment subject to forfeiture, and giving magistrates power to forfeit:
Arthur Meighen: I have redrafted this section so as to repeal the original section. I think this is a better system of drafting where the amendment is so extensive. The amendment I beg to move is as follows:-
That section 1 be rescinded and that the following be substituted therefor:
" 1. Subsection two of section fifteen of the Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act, chapter ten of the Statutes of 1911, is hereby repealed and the following is substituted therefor :-
" 2. Any forest officer may seize, whether within a reserve or elsewhere, all timber, trees and hay cut or removed, all mineral or other products removed, all animals, birds and fish captured or killed, and within a reserve may seize all firearms, ammunition, explosives,-spears, traps, nets, rods, lines, tackle and appliances used or found in the possession of any person without lawful authority or in contravention of any provision of this Act or of any regulation made thereunder, and may seize the outfit and all equipment used or found in the possession of any person or persons arrested for capturing or killing any animal, bird or fish."'


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I suppose that any
prosecutions under this Act would be summary?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I would merely suggest that in case of an appeal-and there is always the possibility, and, indeed, strong probability of an appeal from a summary conviction-although the appellant may win his case he may find his boat or his nets or fishing gear destroyed, unless we make some provision that in the event of an appeal no destruction of property shall take place until the case is finally disposed of.


Arthur Meighen: The Act as it formerly stood placed the power of confiscation in the hands of the game official. That is deemed too wide a power to be placed in his hands, and the amendment places it in the hands of a justice of the peace. Now, inasmuch as he has the power over the goods confiscated, he could, if notified of an appeal on the day of trial or at any time before actual confiscation took place, defer the disposition of the goods until the appeal was taken and heard. There are many clauses in various Acts similar to this as it will be when amended, and the head of the branch having to do with this has never encountered the difficulty the hon. member suggests. I would not like to delay the Bill. If I could consider the question without delaying the Bill I would be glad to do so.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On Section 2-Amendment to authorize granting of surface rights in certain cases in connection with mineral claims.
Arthur Meighen: I move that subsection 3 of section 2 be amended by rescinding the words "in the holders thereof'' in lines 21 and 22, and substituting therefor the following: "in the Crown in the right of the Province of British Columbia." In justice to the Committee I think the clause might be explained. As every one knows, the Privy Council decided many years ago that the royal minerals, that is gold and silver, belonged to the province of British Columbia, while the baser metals belonged to the Dominion. An arrangement was arrived at by Order in Council for the working of the baser metals by means of sale to the province of those metals. The Order in Council of 1890-for Orders in Council are as old as that-provided that the baser metals might be sold, and that any one entering, in accordance with the law of the province for mining rights in the railway belt, would have a right to a lease of sufficient of the surface to enable

his mine to be worked. Then, when the forest reserves and parks were established, the difficulty immediately arose that if surface rights were alienated there, it would mean a very considerable interference with the use of the forest reserves and parks. Consequently it was provided that in the case of forest reserves and parks only a lease should be given subject to terms and conditions set down. This Bill provides for the continuance of that system, but provides also th'at wherever men acquired rights from the province of British Columbia prior to the establishment of the forest reserves and parks, then they might get a sale, because they would, under the previous law, be entitled to that sale of the surface rights and of the subsoil rights. Certain cases arose and were dealt with by Order in Council referred to in subsection 3, where men entered for mining rights prior to the establishment of forest reserves and rat a time when they were entitled to the subsoil and surface rights by sale. This amendment enables us to do the same in future wherever men acquired their rights prior to the establishment of reserves, and ratifies the action taken in the three individual cases.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What minerals are now vested in the right of the province, and what minerals are vested in the right of the Dominion? It might make the matter a little clearer if we knew what we were dealing with by these Orders in Council.


Arthur Meighen: The precious metals are the property of the province, and the baser meals belong to the Dominion. I cannot name in detail the precious metals, but undoubtedly they comprise gold, silver and copper. The main mineral that is ours is the coal, with which this Bill has to do chiefly. I am not certain as to iron, but I am of opinion that iron is a baser metal.


Mr. VIEN:: Why was Order in Council No. 2156 passed vesting the mineral rights in the owners of the I. O. U., the 0. K. and the Apex Mineral Claims, and what were the conditions of that vesting?


Arthur Meighen: The owners of those claims, had it not been for the establishment of the forest reserves, would have been entitled under the legislation of 1890 to surface rights granted by Order in Council. But after the forest reserves were established the Justice Department decided that the legislation of 1890 applied only to lands that were held by the Crown in the right of Canada, and not the lands reserved for sale. These lands were held for sale at the time the rights were acquired,-the

time the entries were made in accordance with the legislation of British Columbia,- and consequently it was only right that men who had acquired such rights should not be dispossessed of them by the subsequent establishment of forest reserves. The legislation does not apply to any one acquiring rights after that. Circumstances arose that made it necessary to take action. I do not remember the exact circumstances, but I think there was an issue of bonds or something of that nature. The hon. member for Caribou (Mr. Fulton) could tell more definitely about that than I. It was necessary that the rights of these people to which they were entitled at the time of acquirement, should be confirmed, and this legislation confirms the action taken.


Thomas Vien: Why is it necessary to have that Order in Council ratified by Act of Parliament?


Arthur Meighen: I do not think it is legally necessary at all, but it is good constitutional practice to come to Parliament and say what was necessary to be done and have Parliament confirm it.


Thomas Vien: Order in Council No. 2156 must have been passed under some provision of the law authorizing the Governor in Council to pass it.


Arthur Meighen: That is right.


Thomas Vien: That being so, I fail to see
why it should be necessary to ratify it.


Arthur Meighen: The Order in Council appointing the receiver for the Grand Trunk Pacific was passed under statutory legislation. The Governor in Council had authority to pass it; nevertheless-


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That is a question.


Arthur Meighen: -as soon as it was
passed it came back to Parliament for ratification as a matter of constitutional practice. This Order in Council is in exactly the same position. ' It is not a legal necessity at all. Any continuing effect of the Order in Council passed under the War Measures Act has practically in law to cease upon the termination of the Act, which is upon the termination of the war. In order that its continuing effect may exist, it should be ratified by legislation. But in this case, as the effect is not in the nature of a continuing effect but rather something done, I do not think there is any legal necessity. It however is well to do it as a matter of constitutional practice.


Thomas Vien: If I understand the minister, that Order in Council, No. 2156, was passed in virtue of the War Measures Act?


Arthur Meighen: I am not quite certain
of the Act. It is usual to name as many Acts as you can when you pass an Order in Council. It is very probable that it was passed under the Dominion Lands Act or the War Measures Act and any other which would be opportune. That is good practice that I commend to my hon. friend when he becomes a member of a Government.


Thomas Vien: I think that is an eventuality that may never materialize, but before That time comes I would like to go into this matter a little farther. If, for the enactment of this Order in Council a basis had to be found in the provisions of the War Measures Aot, I think this House should go more carefully into it and ascertain what is the opinion of the Minister of Justice as to the right of the owners of these mineral claims. I would like, before we pass this clause, that the opinion of the Minister of Justice on the rights of these owners be laid on the table of the House so that we may examine the matter more carefully.


Arthur Meighen: There has been no *
written opinion given, but I have no hesitation in giving the opinion, which will now go on Hansard, that their rights are quite secure.


Thomas Vien: The opinion of the Acting
Minister of Justice that the rights of the owners of these claims are quite secure is not an answer to my question. 1 am now asking whether these claimants had really a right to receive from the Crown the grant of the title to these mineral claims. The minister said that they had some vested rights, and that it was only just and fair that the Crown should remit those vested rights in the surface and the minerals in the claims. It not having been provided by law that the 'Government should have such a Tight, the minister tells us now that it had probably been found necessary-without being absolutely sure of the point-to revert to tlhe War Measures Act to find authority to pass an Order in Council with reference to the rights of tbe owners of these claims. I believe we should very carefully go into the question and ascertain what their rights are. The minister said that they had a right 4 p.m. to these claims but I would like to see what their title is. I would like to know if they had a clear title to these claims and in what way their title takes priority to the title of the Government.


Arthur Meighen: I thought I explained that. These people entered their claims prior to the establishment of the reserve.


Thomas Vien: When?


Arthur Meighen: Prior to the establishment of the reserve. That is the only point of any importance. When the law of 1890 applied, it gave to the entrant of these claims, who complied with the British Columbia regulations, the right to the acquirement of the surface to the extent necessary to work the claims. That right was intact. But it had not been granted as they had not made proof and we knew nothing about it. Subsequently this Parliament establishes a reserve; that statute takes away the right, in the opinion of the Justice Department, because the law of 1890 did not apply to land unless it was held for sale. These claimants find themselves in that position when they come to apply. I do not think anything could be clearer than that it is our duty to put them in the position they were in prior to the establishment of the reserve. Is that clear to the hon. gentleman?


Thomas Vien: Was there any provision in the Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act to give to the Government authority so to do?


Arthur Meighen: No, that is why this legislation is necessary. It was not known at the time that there were any rights there. It only becomes known afterwards when these people apply and say that they come under the British Columbia law.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I think the point made by my hon. friend (Mr. Vien) as to the passage of this Order in Council is about right. The Acting Minister of Justice is usually very strong and clear in his reasoning on matters of law but I did not think he was very strong in saying that he could get a little authority here and a little there, go back to as many statutes as he liked and get an accumulation of authority, in order to pass an Order in Council. I do not think that is good law or reasoning. That is something that the courts guard against in this country. They say that your authority must be absolutely good before an Order in Council stands. It is not good in itself unless it is based on the authority of some statute. When a statute is passed giving the Governor in Council authority to pass an Order in Council in order to implement that statute, that authority is clear and is the mind of Parliament as expressed in that

statute. An Order in Council cannot issue under another statute. I am sure that the Acting Minister of Justice would not say that you could travel from that statute to some other statute and get supplementary authority from it to authorize the issue of an Order in Council. Every Order in Council must be based on some statutory authority and upon that statutory authority alone. I think we should all understand that the courts and constitution of the country, as well as the English courts for as far back as we have any records, have zealously protected the rights of Parliament and the people as against overreaching authority by Order in Council. The courts have always quashed proceedings under an Order in Council unless it was solidly based upon some parliamentary authority as expressed in the statute. If the minister says that these Orders in Council in connection with the coal and mineral lands in the Northwest were based upon the War Measures Act, I would certainly say tnat the authority was not good, and that it was straining the Act beyond any conceivable understanding Parliament had when it passed it to say that it was good enough to use as a basis for making Orders in Council with respect to mineral lands in the Northwest. I hope there is some other and better authority which enabled the minister to pass that Order in Council. If he is entirely without authority, it would be better to come here with a clause in this Bill enabling the Government to pass this title to the people who have a right to get it than to tell us that there is an Order in Council to confirm something that we know nothing about. I suppose this is all right. At the same time the .minister must not presume too much upon our confidence in him, and in the Government, in seeking to pass legislation without giving the proper information.


Arthur Meighen: If my hon. friend's doctrine is thoroughly sound an Order in Council is without value unless rooted, and very clearly rooted, in the authority of a statute.
I hope the hon. gentleman will continue to preach that doctrine to his followers from all parts of the country. But what I said was this: That an Order might rest upon one statute, or, indeed, might rest upon two, and if, to make the Order, in the body of it two statutes are invoked, then if either one is found to authorize it the Order stands; that is all I said. Consequently, those entrusted with-the responsibility of drafting recommendations and Orders in Council usually adopt the practice of in-

voking any authority that may be of assistance to support the Order intended. Therefore, it is possible that more than one statute was invoked in this case. The material before me, however, does not indicate that the War Measures Act was used, but would rather denote that it was passed under the regulatory power of the Forest Reserves and Parks Act. The War Measures Act might have been used; if it were I fancy it would be held to be a valid statute. But anyway the question does not arise now because the question before Parliament is, should these rights be granted, and should they be granted in a future case of a like character, because this legislation will confirm in any event?


Thomas Vien: The minister told us that the Order in Council had not been passed under the Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think so.


Thomas Vien: I understood him to say so a minute ago. If the minister now corrects me on that point I am ready to accept his correction.


Arthur Meighen: I think the hon. gentleman is wrong.


Thomas Vien: I asked the minister whether the Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act gave the Government authority to pass the Order in Council of which we are now speaking. He answered me in the negative, and that is why, it .seems, legislation is now required.


Arthur Meighen: The Forest Reserves and Parks Act does not provide at all for the class of cases-this is what I have in mind and maybe the hon. gentleman misunderstood me-covered by this section. That is a class of cases that have arisen since the passing of the Act, viz:	It has
been discovered that there are certain other rights acquired before the passing of the Act which were not known to exist. The Bill does not exempt them from the provisions of the Bill providing for the creation of a park, but it is quite possible that the power of regulation comprised in the measure would enable the Governor in Council to do so. I do not say that it does not-it i-s quite possible it does-but whether it does or does not this legislation confirms what was done. And Parliament should consider is this: Is it proper that men who, prior to the establishment of the park, had acquired certain definite rights, should have those rights now confirmed? I do not know whether there are any other cases
than the three already dealt with, but there may be others, and in my humble judgment, there is no question about the propriety of confirming the rights in those cases. It seems to me that it would be simply legislating rights away to refuse to do so.


Thomas Vien: I quite agree, if the facts are as stated, that the owners of the mineral rights in these claims should receive back those rights. But outside of that question of fact there is a question of principle of which the leader of the Opposition was speaking a minute ago, and that is the question of the Government passing an Order in Council with no legal authority to do so, except that embodied in the War Measures Act. It is customary for the Government, when it passes an Order in Council, to recite in that Order the legislation on which it is based. Has the minister the Order in Council in this case before him?


Arthur Meighen: No. I have a memorandum with respect to it, but it is not definite in its terms.


Thomas Vien: The minister has not the Order in Council before him? Then it might be enlightening to read that Order in Council in order to determine on what authority it is based. If there is no statutory authority outside of the War Measures Act to justify such an Order in Council I think it is proper for hon. gentlemen on this side to bring to the attention of the Government the fact that it should not pass an Order in Council before having the necessary legislation. The remedy which was sought by the passing of Order in Council No. 2156, could easily have waited until the Government had submitted the necessary legislation to Parliament. I think it is a sound principle of British government to say that instead of passing an Order in Council without authority under the law, the Government should apply to Parliament for that authority. The Order in Council in this case is not valid, if it is not based on statutory authority, until it is ratified by Parliament. It seems to me that instead of passing an Order in Council, without any authority for so doing, it would be a more logical policy for the Government to come to the House and ask for an enactment that would provide the necessary remedy. In that way they would avoid having recourse to an illegal Order in Council. Surely, those who consented to the War Measures Act never thought that it would

be taken advantage of for the passing of such an Order in Council as the one we are now called upon to ratify.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended, agreed to.
On section 3-power given to expropriate lands for park purposes:
Mr. HAY:: With respect to the expropriation of Indian lands. As I understand it, the Indians hold these lands at the present time by virtue of a treaty with the Government, and under the present Bill the minister is taking the right to expropriate Indian lands for park purposes, or other purposes if necessary. I would like to ask if the Government has a right to do that without the consent of the Indians?


Arthur Meighen: There could be no-question, I think, as to the right of Parliament to do that generally speaking. As to the expediency of such a course, I should give an opinion in the negative. That is to say, Parliament would be very careful indeed not to adopt any general policy of expropriation as to Indian reserves. Under the present law it is necessary to establish' expropriatory powers, for Indian reserves. For railroad or public works purposes, or even for roads, that power exists to-day; the only question that arises is, should the power be extended to cover the case of necessary additions to parks?
There is a case in point at the present time: An island in the St. Lawrence near the town of Morrisburg in which a certain Indian tribe acquired rights about a hundred years ago. My information may be wrong and I hope the hon, member for Dundas (Mr. Casselman) is present, but I understand that no one has been living on that island for years; it has been used by some company, although I do not wish to speak with too great certainty. However, it is very desirable in the public interest that it be acquired for park purposes. I think I am safe in saying .that any title the Indians may have is rather cloudy, but whatever interest they may have they will be amply compensated for and t,fiere will be no loss to the tribe. There is a very strong desire on the part of the Parks Branch and on the part of the public most nearly concerned that this island be acquired and made a bird sanctuary and park. That is most clearly the purpose it should be used for, but unless the amendment is made wide enough to cover it no action can be taken to that end.
I wish to assure the hon. member and the House generally that in my judgment

Parliament should be very rautious, indeed, in passing expropriatory legislation applicable to Indian Reserves. I have had occasion to give some thought to the question in relation to another measure, and where the expropriation is for merely general purposes-farming and the like-I question very much whether Parliament should pass such legislation; but inasmuch as this is not of a general character, and cannot be said to be an invasion of Indian Reserves in any substantial sense at all, I do not think we should hesitate to enact the legislation.


Lucien Cannon: How many Dominion
parks are there now?


Arthur Meighen: I am not prepared to say how many there are. There are a considerable number in the various provinces, and there is an intention to increase the number. The value to the country of these parks is becoming more and more obvious as years go by. The amount of money left in the country because of their existence runs now into millions of dollars annually.


Thomas Vien: The Government is now asking for power to expropriate. Has the Government any definite policy as to the lands that it will expropriate in the near future?


Arthur Meighen: - The only case touching Indian lands is this island. It is a small island in the St. Lawrence-I do not know just the size of it. That is the only case we have in mind at the present time.


Thomas Vien: Would it not be better for the Government to specify the land and to come before Parliament each time it wants to expropriate? The matter is never of such an urgent character that we could not wait until the next session of Parliament before such power is granted, and then the House and the country at large would have an opportunity to give their reasons why such expropriation should not take place in the ordinary course.


Arthur Meighen: Parliament will have
that opportunity. If the power is right, that is a question of principle; but the particular appropriation would be decided when the Estimate for it is before the House. Even though this Bill pass, the question of expropriating this particular island will come up when the item for its expropriation is before the Committee in the Estimates. Therefore each individual case must necessarily come before Parliament


Thomas Vien: 
Lucien Cannon: For what purpose are those Dominion parks established?


Arthur Meighen: For Dominion parks.


Lucien Cannon: What ds the purpose of a Dominion park?


Arthur Meighen: I do not know that any words could do other than obscure the very plain meaning of the term "Dominion parks."


Lucien Cannon: We have a Dominion Park in Montreal, for instance; that is for amusement purposes. I suppose the minister is not establishing parks for amusement purposes?


Arthur Meighen: I really think the hon. member understands what a park is for as well as I do. I hope he does not question me as if I were the father of something that is improper. These Dominion parks were established many years ago, virtually all that are established now, under a Government to which the hon. member was not at all unfriendly. But our Dominion parks
are for the purpose of instruction, amusement and recreation, for the purpose of attracting tourists, for sightseeing, and all such purposes. For example, we have one park where there are now between three and four thousand buffalo-the only herd of wild buffalo in the world. I do not know that one could say that it is purely an .amusement to watch our wild buffalo; it is instructive and highly interesting.


Lucien Cannon: It is also dangerous.


Arthur Meighen: Then we have our
Rocky Mountain parks where tourists gather. A golf course has been established and is being very much improved. A vast amount of money is being collected from those best able to pay it. With reference to what the hon. member has said, every expropriation is just on the same footing as this. For instance, under our Expropriation Act now, for any building we wish to erect, we can expropriate, but no one would ever suggest that we must come to Parliament and have a Bill passed enabling us to expropriate each lot that we may want in each town in Canada. No one knows better than the hon. member how much time is taken in getting Bills through Parliament and how much time is wasted. I do not think Parliament would ever get through its work if for every piece of land the Government wanted, it had to come to Parliament with a Bill. We take the general power and then each case must be passed upon by Parliament in the Estimates. That has been the practice for decades, and there is no variation here.


Mr. PARENT:: Are there any such parks in Quebec, or Nova Scotia, or New Brunswick?
. Mr. MEIGHEN:	I think I am safe in
saying that there are Dominion parks in all of the provinces named. I cannot say that I am familiar with each case. I know that at present we have in contemplation the establishment of a park at Annapolis Royal in Nova Scotia. I think that last session a Bill was brought down that had (to do with the establishment of a bird sanctuary on the St. Lawrence in Quebec. That is of course, a park.


Rodolphe Lemieux: On Bonaventure Island.


Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR:: The park at
Annapolis Royal is a very small one; it is just a bit of historic ground near the town of Annapolis. If the minister is going into the park business, there are in Nova Scotia places where it would be of great ' advantage to have a public reservation of

land for that purpose. These lands in western Nova Scotia and also in eastern Nova Scotia belong to the provincial Government. There is not very much timber on some of them, but there are lakes and streams and many beautiful spots are to be found. I do not see why Nova Scotia should not, as well as the Western Provinces, participate to some extent in this expenditure on parks. I could show my hon. friend a place in western Nova Scotia where a large block of land could be expropriated from the province at a very small price, for a Dominion park. In my constituency, there is a tract of 20,000 acres of hardwood, such as birch, maple and beech, not valuable as timber at all, but the whole area is dotted with lakes and streams and would be a magnificent place for recreation and fishing and for the preservation of game. I should like the minister to look into this matter. I am in favour of public parks. I think the reservations we have made at Banff and other places in Western Canada are an advantage to us all, and we are very proud of them. At the same time, I think Eastern Canada should, to some extent, participate in that expenditure, and as the minister has taken power to expropriate lands belonging to the provinces, it would be quite possible to take this strip under this Bill.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. member is
quite right that it would be to the advantage, not only of Nova Scotia, but of the Dominion, if in his province any property more suitable for park purposes than any other were made a park. I just happened to mention Annapolis Royal because only this afternoon the subject was brought to my attention. This, however, must be kept in mind, that while the establishment of parks has gone on with to a considerable degree in the West, that is attributable chiefly to the fact that the Dominion owned these lands in the West and did not need to acquire them. Consequently, the cost, of establishment of parks was not so great. My province of Manitoba, although we owned the lands, has no Dominion parks, nor, I believe, has Saskatchewan. Alberta has, and quite a large area of that province is set aside, and very properly so, for Dominion parks. British Columbia, which owns its resources, has acquired property for a park on Vancouver island, and a provincial Government which owns its own resources could give great assistance to the establishment of parks by making provision for the land.
I do not attach very great importance to the clause giving us power to expropriate

provincial Crown lands. I presume it is intended for small pieces of land perhaps essential as an addition to a present park. Certainly, I would hesitate before utilizing this power as applied to provincial Crown lands.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Might I suggest to the minister that this clause appears more drastic than it is in reality after the explanation given by him? As regards bird sanctuaries, T have a personal knowledge of what t.,ok place during last year regarding legislation on that subject which was brought down a: a former session. In that case, the Dominion Government sent one of the officers of the Department of the Interior, Mr. Hewitt, to Quebec, and by making arrangements with the Department of Crown Lands, he obtained, without any expropriation taking place, the control of Bird Rock and part of Bonaventure Island and also Perce Rock, as bird sanctuaries. If the minister leaves in the Bill this expropriatory power he may create the impression that he may really expropriate what belongs to a province, when it is a matter of arrangement between this Government and the provincial Government. The minister should, therefore, find other phraseology which would cover the point. I understand that, as regards the Indians, the Government proceeds by way of expropriation, and in that case the Government is proceeding against its own wards, but with the provinces the matter is different. I am not referring to the western provinces, where the lands belong to the Dominion, but to the provinces where the lands belong to the provinces, as with the Crown lands in Quebec, Ontario, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.


Lucien Cannon: The Federal Government has no right to expropriate provincial property. In the British North America Act property belonging to the Federal Government is enumerated, and property belonging to the provincial governments is enumerated. His Majesty, as representing the provinces, owns what is enumerated in that list, and I do not think the Federal Government could take expropriation proceedings against the provinces. I think the minister will admit that the Federal Government, in the name of His Majesty, certainly could not take proceedings against His Majesty as represented by a provincial Government. The minister said he did not want to be suspected of any evil designs or of being the father of a very bad scheme. Personally I have never suspected him of anything of that kind, for he is above suspicion, and always has been. He has never

given the Opposition any reason to suspect him. This Bill is very important in a way. In the province of Quebec, for instance, parks have already been- established by the Provincial Government; there is the park in the county of Charlevoix. Suppose that under this section the Federal Government decided to establish a national park where this provincial park now is, would the minister claim that this section gave him the right to expropriate ? It would lead at once to a clash between the Federal and Provincial Governments. 1 have noticed a general tendency in all legislation brought down by the minister to infringe upon provincial rights, and this certainly would be such an infringement. I submit, this section is absolutely unconstitutional, because it gives the Federal Government the right to expropriate the property of the provinces.


Arthur Meighen: I would not like to subscribe to the hon. gentleman's law. It seems to me that expropriatory power now exists with regard to provincial lands, with relation to a railway, for instance. But as a matter of general principle, not of law, but of practice, I am in accord with the hon. member. My attention had not been specially drawn to these words in the Bill previously. I rather apprehend that the province of Ontario may also have some interest in the island in the St. Lawrence to which I referred, that interest being mixed with or added to the interest of the Indians, and it is likely that that was in the mind of the draftsman of the Bill. I would not like to exercise the power of expropriation so far as the interests of the province are concerned, but I do hot think it could be said to be interfering with provincial rights to the alarming extent the hon. member would have us believe; for you may depend upon it that any province in the Dominion would be very glad for us to expropriate lands in the province for the purpose of a Dominion park. At the same time, I do not think we are going to suffer by leaving out the clause providing for the [DOT]expropriation of provincial lands, and I therefore move in amendment :
That the, words " whether it be that of His Majesty in the right of any province, or of the Indians " be deleted and the words " including the lands of Indians" be substituted therefor.
Then, if we cannot make an arrangement with the province there will be no park.


Rodolphe Lemieux: You can always make an arrangement with a province in a matter of public interest. The minister has referred to an island that is in dispute as between the Indian reserve and the province.


Arthur Meighen: The Indians have some right in it.	.


Rodolphe Lemieux: We have a similar
case in the province of Quebec. There is a small island in front of the Caughnawaga reserve which is claimed by the Indians as part of the reserve, and which is claimed also by the provincial Government. There has been quite a dispute, over it, and I am not quite sure but that a judgment concerning it was given recently.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
Bill as amended reported.


[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Arthur Meighem (Acting Minister of Justice) Bill No. 78, to amend the Criminal Code (Sexual offences) was read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior) Bill No. 88 (from the Senate), to amend the Migratory Birds Convention Act, was read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Hon. J. A. Calder (Minister of Immigration and Colonization) Bill No. 52, to amend the Immigration Act, was read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Arthur Meighen (Acting Minister of Justice), the House went into Committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend the Judges' Act to provide for the salary of an additional judge of the County Courts of British Columbia at $3,000 per annum.
Mr. STEVENS:: I would like to bring to the attention of the minister and the Government the altogether inadequate salaries paid to judges not only of the County Court but also of the Supreme Court of British Columbia. Speaking at present particularly in reference to the County Court judges, this is a matter that has been brought to the attention of the Minister of Justice on many occasions, and we have



frequently had promises of consideration and expressions of much sympathy, but very little action. I should be pleased to have an expression of opinion from the Acting Minister of Justice on the subject, and also a statement as to the possibility before the conclusion of the session of an increase in salary of the County Court judges. The County Court judges in the city of Vancouver sit constantly and do considerable work, and I remember having given to the Minister of Justice a statement showing that 365 cases were being handled by two judges in fhe course of a Fall session. That is an exceptionally heavy list, including some highly important cases, the money involved in some cases amounting to a good many thousand dollars and much higher than in cases tried in some of the other courts in Canada. A salary of $3,000 is not sufficient for a County Court judge, and I would like the minister to give us some idea as to the intention of the Government in this regard.


Mr. McISAAC:: I wish to say a word on this point with regard to the judges of Prince Edward Island. The Supreme Court judges there are receiving $300 a year less than similar judges in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. The duties of a judge in Prince Edward Island are just as important and require just as much intelligence, application, and every other qualification demanded of like judges in the other provinces. In Prince Edward Island there are only three judges while in the other provinces there is a much larger number, and because there are fewer judges in the Island they have just as much work and probably more. At the same time there exists this anomaly, that the County Court judges are receiving the same amount of salary in Prince Edward Island as those in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and other provinces. Why should the Supreme Court judges be penalized? I just wish to bring this matter to the attention of the minister as perhaps he might consider an increase in the salaries Qf these judges.


Mr. THOMAS FOSTER:: The hon. member (Mr. Stevens) spoke of 365 cases. That is an exception and might not occur again in several years. The question is, what is the average? As regards the proposal to increase these judges salaries, I understand the judges pay no income tax. Surely a judge receiving $5,000 to $7,000 should have sufficient interest in the State to pay an income tax.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. member for
centre Vancouver (Mr. Stevens), supported

by the hon. member for Kings, P.E.I., (Mr. Mclsaac) urges the wisdom of increasing the salaries of County Court judges. The necessity of an increase of salary to County Court judges has been impressed upon the Government ever since I assumed the office of Acting Minister of Justice, and doubtless some time before that event, which is now six months old. The question is not confined to County Court judges. If there is any class of judges in Canada for whose cause there are not ardent advocates for an increase of salary, I have yet to learn what bench it is. Every bench in the Dominion, I think, has had its case advanced and urged, deputation after deputation having waited upon myself and other ministers, and the subject generally has begn canvassed most thoroughly in recent months. There- are several features of the problem that might be brought to the attention of the Committee. In the case of County Court judges the income now received for their duties is not uniform by any means. The senior judge is entitled to certain emoluments and the junior judge also in a somewhat lesser scale. So that while $3,000 is the nominal salary, there are cases where even that salary is increased, those cases being chiefly in large cities.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I do not think that applies to the County Court of British Columbia. That is the peculiar position they are in.


Arthur Meighen: There are eases where that is not the nominal salary, but in nearly all cases, I think in all, the emolument is raised above the nominal salary by Surrogate Court and other fees.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Not in Vancouver.


Arthur Meighen: I think it is. That is worth inquiry on the part of the hon. member. Perhaps I am wrong. But generally, if not universally speaking, it is, and the total emolument is brought to something within the range of $4,000, and in some cases even somewhat beyond that. When I considered the question this fact presented itself to my mind, that by reason of the system which the British North America Act laid down-constitution of the office by the province, and appointment and salary made and paid by the Dominion-there had grown up a condition by which there were far too many judges, particularly of our county courts and district courts. I addressed a communication to the Attorneys General of the several provinces, intimating that such was the case and asking that they

give attention to the question of so rearranging the judiciary as to provide for an ultimate reduction of the number of County Court judges. The province of Ontario has responded* and I believe a statute is now in force by which the junior judges will be almost entirely done away with upon retirement or death of the present holders of those offices.
Other provinces have now under consideration-whether it will be favourable or not I cannot say-something along the same line. I am in hopes that the process will become more and more all Canadian before it ceases, because, if it becomes general enough, the problem of judicial salaries will be more easily solved. As a. consequence of my oonvicion that there were too many judges, particularly on that bench, I have not felt it my duty as acting minister to recommend the filling of certain vacancies that now exist. Furthermore, coming to the other bench, the King's Bench, as it is usually called, the Supreme and superior courts in other provinces, a condition of affairs obtains that has caused considerable irritation. In the Maritime and Western Provinces the salaries of judges in these courts are something less than they are in Ontario and Quebec. That condition is accentuated in the province of Prince Edward Island. Whether or not there was originally justification for that discrimination may be open to question. It would appear to be arguable that there was. But, at all events, the reason for that discrimination has, in my opinion, become progressively less as these other provinces have developed and as the litigation that comes before the judges of these provinces has be* come more and more technical, more considerable in amount and more varied as to, the questions of law presented. That is a matter that hon.. members will have to keep in mind in discussing the problem. It appeared to me to be my duty to collect all the facts available, to put them into presentable, terse and tangible form, and to leave the problem in general for the consideration of the minister of the department (Mr. Doherty) upon his return. It has not been known until now-it is not known now-when that return will be possible, but there is no reason to fear that it will be so long deferred as to put it out oi his power to deal with this question favourably or unfavourably this session. If his opinion on his return is that he cann#t ueal with the question this session, as he may be advised, then I do not think I should
147i
enter upon its consideration in a practical way because it seems to me to be one that eminently is for the consideration of the minister himself. Should it transpire that he will not be able to return for the subsequent portion of this session, then it will be for the Government to decide whether or not the problem should be dealt with on the recommendation of the acting minister.


Thomas Foster: Do not the
county judges, in addition to their salaries, earn considerable emoluments from commissions and special investigations which would in themselves average a pretty good salary?


Arthur Meighen: That is what I referred to in my remarks. I do not think much is made out of commissions or investigations. The extra amount which I referred to was that which they actually received from Surrogate Court fees. The hon. member for Centre Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) says that that does not apply in his province. He may be correct but, generally speaking, it does apply.


Thomas Foster: Do they not act as commissioners, or conduct special investigations, and do they not earn something in that way?


Arthur Meighen: There have been Superior and county court judges, I suppose, who have acted in that way, but the earnings of a single judge from that source would not do very much for the other men who had not been favoured with these investigations.


Mr. ARGUE:: Will this resolution apply
to the appointment of judges in Saskatchewan? There are several vacancies, and some of them should be filled.


Arthur Meighen: No, this resolution refers only to the province of British Columbia and follows the provincial enactment which constitutes the judicial district of Nanaimo. It appears that the extent of territory there is such that it cannot be attended to by one judge, particularly in view of the very great increase 5 p.m. in population and the development of coal mining - in the northern part of the district. This resolution does not refer to Saskatchwan. Letters were addressed to the various provinces asking them to consider the question of reduction. I am in hopes that these letters will still be fruitful in the case of 'Saskatchewan to enable the present judges appointed to be so distributed as to take care

of the vacancies to which the hon. member refers.


Mr. TWEEDIE:: I would like to call the attention of the Acting Minister of Justice to the discrepancy between the salaries paid to Superior. Court judges in -the western provinces and those paid in the East. Whatever ground there may have been for that distinction when it was created I cannot see that there is any reason for it now. The western provinces are provinces. The standard of the legal profession in the West will compare very favourably with that of the other provinces. It seems to me that the questions involved in litigation are just as important in the West ns they are elsewhere. It .is not altogether a question of the amount of time that the judges devote to the performance of their duties in the various provinces. Once these men are appointed they cannot or should not engage in any other business. They are absolutely deprived of the right of practising their profession. In short, the whole of their time must be devoted to carrying on the business of their positions as justices of the Superior court. On 'behalf of the western bench, I submit that this difference in salary which has existed for some time should be straightened out at once and that all the judges of the superior court throughout the Dominion of Canada, irrespective of province, should be placed upon the same footing. I would like very much if the acting minister would take this -matter into his earnest and careful consideration this session and see if he cannot remedy that discrimination and put all -these judges "on an equal footing. I am sure that all the members of this House would be very glad to have the acting minister review the situation in regard to judges' salaries throughout Canada.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I wish once more to bring to the notice of the acting minister what we have been advocating here for a number of years. I remember in the old days of the Laurier Government we used to talk about this subject just as much as we do now, and we used to advocate an increase, particularly in the salaries of the county court judges. Within the last few years we have often brought this matter to the attention of the present Minister of Justice.
I can readily understand that the Acting Minister of Justice would hesitate before starting a new policy as to the increase of salaries; but I think the minister himself (Mr. Doherty) was several

times inclined seriously to the advancement of the salaries of the County Court judges, and I think last year he was very much disposed to augment those salaries. The reason now given by the acting minister for not adopting such a course is that there is a tendency to a re-organization of the districts and of the courts, and to have a smaller number of judges. That re-organization may come about, but it may be a very slow process, and it may result in great hardship to those judges who have been struggling along for a great many years on small salaries. The high cost of living affects a judge just as much as anybody else. Civil servants have been granted an increase, those engaged in the ordinary industries of the country are getting their salaries raised; nearly everybody in fact has had his stipend raised. Ordinarily speaking, men can engage in other branches of work in order to add to'their salaries; but under our laws the judge is told that he cannot and must not engage in any other pursuit. He is not even allowed to be a director of a board where he can be paid $20 a month, or something of that kind; he is not allowed to engage in anything except the administration of the law. That is as it should be, but when we cut off every other source of supply to a man and demand his entire attention and the whole of his powers in the administration of the law, the responsibility devolves upon us of giving him a sufficient salary, we should see to it that he is placed beyond necessity and beyond poverty. Now we have not added a cent to the salary of the judge, although the purchasing ^ower of a dollar has been cut in two. It is therefore a matter of serious consideration for the Government, and particularly for the Minister of Justice, to see that these judges are properly provided for. I need not tell the Acting Minister of Justice, or the Committee, what a serious and important [DOT] thing it is that our judges shoul-cl be put beyond covetousness, or the temptation of looking for money elsewhere. We can say the same thing for our judges in every part of Canada that we can say about our own judges in Nova Scotia, that not a shadow of impropriety has crept in in connection with the administration of justice. We have always been proud of our judges in Nova Scotia, who are absolutely beyond suspicion, and I am sure the same thing is true of the judges of every other province. We should provide for the conti nu-

ance of that condition as far as we can, by giving a proper salary. Would it not be possible for the Department of Justice for the present to relieve the situation by adding to the salaries of these judges, and then, under any policy of re-construction those Judges who are superfluous might go out, such arrangements being made for them as might meet the necessities of the case? If we wait foT re-organization too long a period may elapse before a remedy is provided, and a great deal of unnecessary hardship may have been suffered by these gentlemen.
I trust that the department-when the minister returns to this country, or even before that- will be able to meet the need in these very important cases.
As regards my own province it contains eighteen counties and there are only seven county court judges, so that I do not think there would be very much chance for reducing the number of judges in Nova Scotia. There may be, but I think all the judges are pretty well employed. The county court judge in my own locality, that is . district No. 7, is a very busy man, working continuously and without any let-up at all. Every day there is some case being tried before him, and yet he only receives the very meagre salary of $3,000. He is obliged to live in the city of Sydney, where living is just as expensive as in Toronto, Montreal, or any of the large centres, and hon. gentlemen can readily understand how difficult it is for a man to live in a city where everything is dear on a salary of $3,000, and yet be obliged to live in the style, and with the surroundings for himself and his family that a judge must maintain in order to do credit to the position which he occupies. I do not know very much about the conditions in other provinces, but ajs to the Nova Scotia judges supplementing their earnings from any other source, that is not possible; they get nothing out of probate business, and no other income besides their bare salaries. The Acting Minister of Justice is aware that there is an agitation in respect of the Supreme Court judges as well as the County Court judges in Nova Scotia. We in Nova Scotia pride ourselves on being a very old province, and one which has been noted for the very high status of the judges in our Supreme Court. They are men very highly versed in the science of the law, and we have a Bench to-day that is the equal, man for man, with any other set of judges in the country. I say that without the desire to cast the slightest reflection on any other court.
I am sorry to know that the judges of Nova Scotia are not paid the same salaries, for example, as the judges of Manitoba. Now we are a very much older province and of equal importance in every respect-not any more, but just as important-and I cannot very well see why a judge of the Supreme Court of Manitoba should be receiving a larger salary than a judge of the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia. -


Arthur Meighen: I think the judges in the Maritime Provinces and in the Western Provinces should receive the same salary.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The Chief Justice of Manitoba receives $8,000 a year-


Arthur Meighen: He is the Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: -and the puisne judges receive $7,000 a year. Of course, there are two courts in Manitoba, whereas in Nova Scotia there is but one. That is to say our Supreme Court in Nova Scotia does the work which two courts do in Manitoba; we have only the one set of judges for the Court of Appeal and for the Circuit Court. In New Brunswick, and in the other provinces, there is a Circuit Court and a Court of Appeal; in Nova Scotia the judges do the Circuit Court work, and also constitute themselves a Court of Appeal. I think that is a reason why they should be pafd a higher salary. The minister will see, if he compares Manitoba with Nova Scotia, that the population is about the same; I think ours is a little more; and if he will inquire into the amount of legal business, I think he will find that there is more of it in Nova Scotia. As to the expense of the administration of justice, the minister will find that if he makes inquiry that the same work is costing at least about thirty per cent more in Manitoba than it is costing .in Nova Scotia. I think our judges should be put upon the same footing as the judges of the Superior Court of Quebec and the Superior Court of Ontario, and be paid the same salary. I know of no justification at all for the difference. The laws are about the same throughout the whole Dominion -certainly the criminal laws are exactly the same, and commercial law is about the same-and if the amount involved in the cases that come into court is to be taken into consideration the biggest case that was ever tried in Canada was heard in the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia. That was the famous lawsuit between the Dominion Steel Company and the Dominion Coal Company before they amalgamated. I do

"not know how many millions of money were [DOT]involved in the suit, but it is the largest -case that was ever tried in the Dominion. Large cases of that kind come up all the time and require the very best legal talent that we can produce in the province.
I think the minister will approve my statement that the province of Nova Scotia has produced some very excellent lawyers in fact, this House will bear me out. Sir John Thompson, at one time Minister of Justice and Prime Minister, was one of our judged of whom we have good reason to be proud, and our present Prime Minister, who is a very excellent lawyer, is also a native of Nova Scotia. The judges-of our Supreme Court are men of the highest possible eminence in their profession, and I do not think they should .look upon themselves as being inferior to other judges serving the same Government and doing similar work in the other provinces. There is no other way of looking at it-the clear implication is that the Government thinks they are not deserving of the same salary, otherwise they ' would receive it. I am not aware if the minister has any scheme in view for dealing with the salaries of Supreme Court judges , throughout the country as well as with those of the County Court judges, but I think he should hasten to see that there is no disparity in their salaries and so remove any ground for complaint in that regard. I am sure that as long as our people find the administration of. justice as pure and capable as it is now they will not begrudge the payment of proper salaries to their Supreme Court judges.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I would like to correct a mistaken impression of the Acting Minister of Justice. The County Court judges of British Columbia-in fact, all the judges- receive no Surrogate Court fees. Their position is not only unfair in comparison with the salaries paid to judges in other provinces, but the difference is accentuated, and I desire to impress it as strongly as possible upon the attention of the minister. I would also remind him of the fact that the benchers of the Law iSociety of British Columbia recently filed a very strong indorsement of the suggested increase of salary, and I hope the matter will not be left over another session, even if the Minister of Justice should not return during this session.


Arthur Meighen: The Committee should not get the impression that because the judges in certain provinces do not get surrogate court fees there is on that account discrimination against them; that is far

from the case. The Dominion fees are the same everywhere. But if the province of Ontario decides, for example, that instead of having other officials appointed at salary to do surrogate court work they will appoint a Supreme Court judge to do it and pay him a thousand dollars a year, that adds that much to his salary; if British Columbia, as against that decides to appoint separate officials, that is British Columbia's own affair.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is scarcely a good argument. For this reason: The Dominion pays the Supreme Court judges for services rendered; the time of those judges is fully occupied in their court work and they have no time for outside work now, if one of those judges gives a portion of his time to the province in return for a salary provided by the province, and the rest of his time to the Dominion, the minister cannot argue that the other judges have only themselves to blame if they do not receive additional pay. Their time is fully occupied in court work-more than occupied in many cases. But in Ontario and some of the other provinces the Supreme Court' judges give a portion of their time to other duties.


Arthur Meighen: Surrogate court work
is court work just the same as any other similar work is court work. No case has been brought to my attention where the Dominion has refused to appoint sufficient judges to take care of the work. It is the province's own affair if it gives to other people work that is properly judges' work; and that province cannot be heard then to complain that its judges are not treated fairly by the Dominion because we do not give more salary to them, for the same salary is paid to all Supreme Court judges.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend still
argues that they get surrogate court fees, we must not run aw^ay with 'the idea that they are getting more than $3,000. I say that out British Columbia judges get $3,000 and no more, and that that salary is inadequate.


Arthur Meighen: That may be, but that is entirely aside from the point of discrimination. There is no discrimination whatsoever; w>e pay all our Supreme Court judges the same salary.


Henry Herbert Stevens: It is not discrimination if the Dominion gives them a good salary.


Arthur Meighen: That is another ground altogether. We pay them all the same sal-

ary. If the province does not add to their salaries for additional court work, but appoints other persons for the purpose, then that province cannot be heard to complain against the Dominion that we discriminate against its judges- There is no ground for any allegation of discrimination. I am not saying that there is no ground for an allegation of inadequate salary.


Thomas Vien: Does the minister think it sound policy to allow Federal judges to discharge other duties than those the iaw has fixed for them, such as surrogate work on account of the province? It seems to me that the judges appointed by the Federal Government should be limited in their functions as described by the statute, and should not be allowed to exercise any other functions and receive therefor emoluments from the provinces. As a policy it seems to me it should commend itself to the minister


Arthur Meighen: A judge is appointed to do such work, necessarily of a legal or judicial character, as may be assigned to him by the Dominion or by the province. If the province assigns to him eertaiu work, it is his duty under the Act to perform it. To say that he should not do anything except what the Dominion gives him to do-I scarcely understand those terms.


Thomas Vien: I will explain them. Jurisdiction in the organization of the various tribunals is vested in the local legislatures. When the organization * of a tribunal is effected by a provincial Act, the Federal Government appoints the judges. We fix the salary and we pay it. We should pay judges such salaries as will make them independent of any other influence and allow them to live without having to exercise any [DOT] other functions for which? they would receive pay from the provinces.


Mr. PROULX:: My hon. friend is not familiar with the practice in Ontario. In Ontario, the judges are well qualified to deal with Surrogate Court work, and in most counties the fees would not be large enough to warrant the appointment of a separate judge for that particular work. As the Acting Minister of Justice said, Ontario amended the County Court Judges Act last year, and in future County Court judges will receive $1,000 from, the province as compensation for their services in doing Surrogate Court work and work under other statutes. There are certain large counties, such as York, Carleton and Wentworth, in which the judges will receive more than $1,000. I am not familiar with the position of County Court judges in other provinces,
but in Ontario, after the junior judges are done away with, County Court judges will receive from the province at least $1,000, which will increase their salary by so much.


Arthur Meighen: Making $4,000 all together.


Ira Eugene Argue: If- the minister finds it impossible to make an arrangement with the Saskatchewan Government to redistribute the judges to cover the vacancies, will he recommend the appointment of judges for those vacancies? There are, in the southwestern part of the province, two new districts, and Cypress, which is the seat of a district a hundred miles square, has only two terms of the court per annum. People are compelled to come into the town and stay for weeks waiting for trials, and on the other hand Judge Smith, who goes over from Swift Current, has more than ninety miles to travel by auto, and if the roads are bad in the winter, he has to travel 270 miles to get around by train. Therefore, I do not think the Government are saving any money and these people are being greatly inconvenienced Iby not having -a resident judge in that district.


Arthur Meighen: It would be useless on my part to make a promise, because it is probable I shall not be acting in this capacity at the time for its fulfilment. I am not sure, at all events, whether Saskatchewan will be able to make the redistribution which has been suggested to me, although I have some reason to hope it will. But if it should not, there is an alternative. A subjudicial district might be named which would give the district affected, if in an outlying part, such an organization, with perhaps only one officer, as would enable it to secure a more prompt and less expensive service of process and so on. That has been suggested as likely to take place in at least one province, thereby overcoming much of the difficulty. If that should be done in Saskatchewan, the hon. member's point will be met, but if no other way-and this Government is not by any means sole dictator of the situation-is opened up by the province wheTeby this can be taken care of without appointing new judges, and if a district needs a judge, certainly a recommendation will be made. I understand there is very considerable inconvenience now which might be avoided by a better redistribution of the judges by the creation of a subjudicial district, but if that is not done, then it seems that a recommendation will have to be made.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Have the districts to
which the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Argue) refers been created by the local legislature?


Arthur Meighen: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This year?


Arthur Meighen: There have been two
vacancies for a year or two which we have not filled because we felt there were sufficient judges.


Mr.   PKOTJLX@: Has a new district been created in British Columbia?


Arthur Meighen: The district is created
already by the province.


Mr. MOWAT:: I ain glad to hear the Acting Minister of Justice say that one province at least has responded to his suggestion that there should be co-ordination with a view of getting more efficiency in judicial work, and I am glad that province is Ontario, of the Bar of which I am a member. I think I can say on behalf of the members of the Bar that -they entirely approve of the new Act of the Ontario Legislature by which junior judges are to be absorbed as vacancies occur. As the case stands now, the two judges in a county, senior and junior, get $6,000, and it would be far better if the senior judge were paid $5,000 so as to give him a decent income rather than that the work should be divided as it is now, because in many counties, we all know, there is not enough work to keep one man, who is industrious and has any system, thoroughly busy, much less is there sufficient for two judges to do. When the minister is considering the whole question, I would ask him to make a further suggestion that districts should be made for the smaller counties so that one judge could attend to one or two, or perhaps three counties. I know of three counties which one judge could very well attend to, and he could be given a large proportion of the remuneration of the three judges who are now supposed to do that work.	It is essential, if
the laws are to- be well administered, that judges have the respect of the people, and they should be paid adequate salaries, or else the best members of the Bar will not be willing to accept such positions. The County Court judges have very important work to do. In Ontario, a County Court judge, on account of increased jurisdiction given him by the province, can deal with many cases which formerly took up the time of a Supreme Court judge travelling at assizes. Even with all this extra work,

many of them would be better off and happier if they had more work to do, but they should be paid far more than they receive at present, and I hope an ascending scale will be adopted so that these judges will not feel the high cost of living as acutely as they do now. They cannot keep up their position with -the merchants and wealthy men of the towns in which they live, and that should not be the case. The idea of judicial remuneration is that a judge should not be thought to be inferior to the best class of citizens in the town in which he is. That is impossible at present with a judge getting only $3,000 a year, even if he gets something more for surrogate court work. The surrogate judge is not appointed by the Dominion but by the province, and the whole judicial work is distributed by the province. Therefore, the Dominion, apart from its good offices here, in asking for co-ordination, has nothing to do with *the particular work of, a judge, because, according to the British North America Act, all the Dominion Government has to deal with in this regard is the appointment of the judge; the rest is left to the province. I am glad Ontario is leading as regards the work of co-ordination and the saving of judicial effort, and I hope the other provinces will follow suit.


Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie: I agree that these judges are underpaid and that they should receive a substantial increase in salary, but under this resolution I do not see that we can get very much relief for them. I should like to inquire whether, in the event of legislation being introduced in regard to the judges of -the superior, county, and district courts, an increase in their salaries will be one of the matters taken into consideration.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, it certainly will be.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I should like to say a word for the judges of the rural districts of the province of Quebec, who occupy a similar position to that of the county court judges in the province of Ontario, except that they have a little higher salary. A rural district judge in the province of Quebec receives $5,000 a year. Under the new system which has been adopted, these judges are called to Montreal, Quebec, Three Rivers, and even Sherbrooke, to help in the -administration of justice in those congested districts, and I do not see why they should not be put on a footing of equality with the judges of -the superior court of Montreal and Quebec. These judges are certainly handicapped by the
I

high cost of living. I am glad to hear that the acting minister has considered the whole question and that it will be dealt with on the return of the minister (Mr. Doherty) from Europe. The hon. member for Parkdale (Mr. Mow-at) has spoken of the legislation recently adopted by the Ontario Legislature. He might have added that many years ago, under the Mowat government, I think, the Ontario government finding the salaries of the judges of the higher courts in Ontario to be inadequate, supplemented their salaries by a yearly vote of $17000. This vote is still taken yearly, so that a superior court judge in the province of Ontario receives $1,000 more than he would receive in the province of Quebec. This shows that the people of Ontario have been more liberal to the judiciary than other provinces, and it seems to me the Dominion Government' should do what this one province has done. This additional $1,000 was granted under the pretext-because it was only a pretext-that in addition to their official functions they had to administer the Controverted Elections Act. The real reason was that the salaries of the judges were inadequate. I have not seen the memorandum addressed to the Acting Minister of Justice by the judiciary, but I know that it has been in circulation of late, and in view of the position the judges occupy in society, and having regard also to the independence of the judiciary, for my part I would look favourably upon a reasonable increase in their salaries. .
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Meighen thereupon moved to introduce Bill No. 104, founded on the resolution.
Resolution agreed to and Bill read a first time.



INTERPRETATION ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Acting Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of Bill No. 81, to amend the Interpretation Act.-
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Explain.


Arthur Meighen: Since the Interpretation Act was passed the names of*certain courts have been changed by the Provincial Legislatures, and this Bill merely changes the definition to correspond with the names now given to these courts.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, Bill read the second time, considered in Committee, reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Civil Government-rRoyal Northwest Mounted Police-Salaries, including Deputy Minister and Comptroller at $6,000, and Assistant Comptroller and Accountant at $3,300-$26,625.
["Yes. It is included in the estimate I have given of $5,000,000, as being the cost of the work up to the present time.'\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Hon. J. D. Reid, the House adjourned at 11.13 p.m.\nTuesday, May 13, 1919."]
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This is an item dealing with salaries. There may not be an item before the House at any time that will go specifically to the point I wish to bring to the notice of the President - of the Council, and I may mention the matter now. This is part of the Civil Service Estimates and these men, I suppose, are within the zone of the Civil Service. For that reason I do not think I transgress any rule^ in referring to another branch of the .service in connection with .this item. The question of a bonus to civil servants has been before the House once or twice this session, and I understand that the bonus was given by .way of an increase in salary pending the legislation about which the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Maclean) spoke to-day. I suppose that that legisla-ion of the Civil Service, will possibly end in an increase of salaries to at least the inside service, and I hope it will cover all servants, whether inside or outside as far as may be necessary. This bonus, as I am informed, was paid to keep matters in equilibrium until the general Act was passed, and if one person gets the benefit of it I submit that all in the service should get it. We have officers in this House working around the different parts of the building who must be here during the session. It is true that during a few months of the year they are not here, but they aTe men who have been in* attendance here for several years, as long as twenty and twenty-five years, and who have become in every way adapted to this sort of work. They have no other employment and I submit that this bonus that was paid to other civil servants should also be paid to them. There are not very many of them and they should be fairly dealt with. I think the President of the Council should immediately take steps to ascertain who they are and what should, fall to them, and gladden their hearts by giving them what they should receive. There should be no discrimination or distinction simply because these persons are sessional clerks or people who attehd during the session. They are to all intents and purposes civil -servants, who have been here for many years and who will, I sup*

pose, be here for the rest of their natural lives.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The point raised by the hon. member hardly arrises upon the estimate now before the committee.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I admit that.


Newton Wesley Rowell: But out of respect to my hon. friend's suggestion I may say that the bonuses were granted under two limitations, one being that they, applied only to those receiving salaries of $1,800 or less, because-and I am- speaking now of the bonus given by Order in Council-it was felt that the high cost of living bore more severely on those receiving smaller salaries than on those who were in receipt of higher salaries. Another limitation was that it applied only to those continually in the service. I presume that is the point my hon. friend has in mind in referring to the sessional clerks, who are not paid on a basis, of yearly allowance. I do not know whether they were in view when the form of Order in Council was determined upon. I shall bring my hon. friend's representation in this matter to the attention of my colleagues. It was considered that those who worked for the Government two or three months in the year but were not in Government employ longer should hardly be paid a bonus on the same basis as those in the Government employ the whole time. I may say that the whole matter, so far as the future is concerned, will come up for review when the re-classification of which the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce spoke to-day, comes before the House for consideration.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am not bringing this matter up for the mere sake of talking about it. I want something done for these people, and hope the President of the Council will take it seriously into consideration and bring it before his colleagues. I trust that no mere lack of covering this point by Order in Council will stand in the way of doing justice to these people who" are very excellent servants of the Government, because the Order in Council can be amended, or extended, or a new Order in Council passed. It would not take long to do it. My hon. friend has a very expert knowledge of how these things are done, and can just put his foot on the wheel at any time and grind one out in very short order. So that the lack of power to do it through want of legislation is no excuse for the President of the Council or the.Government.


Lucien Cannon: There is an increase of fifteen hundred odd dollars. What does it consist of?


Newton Wesley Rowell: It consists of $1,000 additional amount payable to deputy minister and comptroller, just the same increase as is given to all other deputies. The other increases, I believe, are statutory increases.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What relations, if any, exist between provincial governments and this Government in regard to the services of the Mounted Police? I understood there was to be a change by which in some provinces they were to come within the jurisdiction of the province, more especially since governments have been established in different parts' of the West and the jurisdiction of ordinary civil and criminal administration of justice has come largely within the purview of the provinces. Are we keeping up the same staff or number of Mounted Police as in the old days, for instance, before 1906, when autonomy was granted to Saskatchewan and Alberta? It was thought then that we would not require as many mounted police after that as we had had before.


Newton Wesley Rowell: It is only right that the committee should have a statement showing the present position of the Mounted Police and their relation to the different provinces. I shall be glad to make such a statement after recess.
At six o'clock the Committee took recess.
After Recess.
The Committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Newton Wesley Rowell: When the Committee rose at six o'clock I promised the leader of the Opposition that I would make a statement with reference to the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, and the relation of that Force to the Western Provinces. I had intended to speak on this particular aspect of the matter when we came to the next item, but probably it is just as well to give the information on this item relating to civil government, as any matter connected with the Force can properly be discussed under it.
As my hon. friend will recall, Parliament established t#e Force in 1873. Up to the creation of tihe Western Provinces tire Mounted Police had exercised police jurisdiction in Western Canada, other than British Columbia, and had been the only police force performing general police duty in that western land, When the new provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan were formed,

agreements were entered into between the Federal Government and these Provincial Governments under which the Royal Northwest Mounted Police continued to perform police duties within these provinces-, the provinces paying a oer-tain annual subvention to the Federal Government in return for such services. That situation continued without change, the agreement being renewed from time to time until the autumn of 1916, when, owing to the conditions which had developed through the war, it was considered desirable by the Federal Government that the Mounted Police should be relieved from further ordinary police duties in the provinces. I should have added that the Mounted Police were performing certain police duties in Manitoba also under an agreement with the Government of that province. In the fall of 1916, as I say, the Federal Government came to the conclusion that it was in the public interest that the Royal Northwest Mounted Police should be relieved of further duties under these agreements with the Provincial Governments so that they might be free to devote themselves wholly to their duties under the Dominion authorities. One of the main reasons which led to that con-elusion was the situation which existed in the United States at that time, the country to the south not having, entered the war and a great deal of unrest existing there. Certain investigations had been conducted by the American police which showed a good deal of pro-German activity in certain sections of the United States. We had a large alien population in Western Canada, and it was deemed necessary *that the Mounted'Police should be free to carefully patrol *the international boundary and protect us against such proGerman activities; to supervise all matters connected with the administration of the law relating to aliens in Western Canada, and generally to exercise police supervision in those matters over, which the Federal Government had jurisdiction throughout the western provinces. Therefore on the 29th of November, 1916, after a -conference with each of the provincial governments, ari* understanding was arrived at, whereby the then existing agreements were terminated, and from that date the Royal Northwest Mounted Police have not been performing any police dutiel under any general agreement with the provincial governments. When the United States entered the war, the situation in reference to- pro-German activities in the
United States, and possible troubles in Canada arising therefrom, was completely changed, and the Royal Northwest Mounted Police expressed a desire to be allowed to serve overseas-in fact from the very outbreak of the war they had been desirous of going to the front as a unit, but owing to the view which the Government entertained as to the importance of maintaining a strong force in Western Canada, it did not feel free to grant their request. That request was renewed in 1917, and again in 1918. In the summer of 1917 an offer was made to the Imperial Government of a cavalry unit from the Mounted Police, but at that time the authorities in England did not desire such a unit. The offer was renewed in the following winter or the spring of 1918, with practically the same result. However, in the great German offensive of March and April, 1918, our Canadian cavalry brigade suffered very serious casualties, and in the month of April the Overseas Minister of Militia cabled out to Canada for a substantial number of cavalry reinforcements. Knowing that the Royal Northwest Mounted Police had been anxious to serve at the front as a cavalry regiment, the offer was made to them to provide the necessary reinforcements to be sent overseas to strengthen our cavalry brigade. Subsequently the plans were changed so as to provide reinforcements for the cavalry brigade, and at the same time furnish a squadron of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police to add to the existing corps cavalry. I am glad to say that when the announcement was made to the Police that they could volunteer for overseas service, notwithstanding the critical condition that then existed on the Western Front and the serious casualties that-our cavalry brigade had sustained, every man of military age in the force, and many not of military age, volunteered for service overseas. Only those that were physically fit could be taken, but although only some five hundred men were asked for we secured reinforcements at that time to the number of twelve officers and seven hundred and thirty-six of other ranks, including exmembers of the force and other volunteers, and they proceeded overseas on the 14th of June. The force completed their training at Shorncliffe, where I had the opportunity of inspecting them, and I have never seen a finer body of men. At Shorncliffe they divided, one squadron proceeding to France in the- month of October where they were first attached to the Canadian Light Horse. Subsequently they were at-

tached to and formed part of the corps cavalry, and acted as despatch riders and patrols for the several divisions. As soon as the armistice was signed a squadron was pushed over to Namur, Belgium, and one troop under I ieutenant Acland, was sent into Germany with the Army of Occupation. The others who formed the balance of the force that went overseas, were divided and seven non-commissioned officers and two hundred and thirty-six of other ranks were formed part of a tank unit for service in France. The balance of the original force were utilized as reinforcements for our cavalry brigade in .France.	The majority of those
that went overseas have already returned or are now returning. Major Jennings, who was in command of the unit, is, II believe, now on the ocean on his way back with some one hundred and seventy-five men, and when they have reached Canada the greater number of those who went overseas will have returned. *
While on this subject, let me add that, when, the Government decided to send certain troops to Siberia, the Royal Northwest Mounted Police was asked to provide a cavalry squadron. The request came on the ,17th of August, 1918. We immediately complied and the squadron was completely mobilized on the 9th September, consisting of six officers and one hundred and eighty-one of other ranks, and proceeded overseas to Siberia. As the members of the Committee are aware, those troops are now being returned from that country; a few of the Mounted Police are back, but the majority have not yet returned.
I mention these details in connection with the service overseas, because I think it is only fair to the force that one should point out how anxious they were to serve during the whole period of the war, and how quickly they responded when the opportunity was afforded them. Although those who went to France did not see much of the actual fighting, except as despatch riders, and serving in a similar capacity, it was not because they were not anxious to do so. In speaking of their services overseas, I think I should mention the fact that, while the Government was not able to let the force go over as a unit, large numbers of the Police resigned their positions, or purchased their discharge as they were entitled to do in order that they might proceed to Europe and serve at the front.
I am advised by the commissioner that during the period from the outbreak of the war up to the time we mobilized the seven or eight hundred men for service in France,
[M,r. Rowell.]
probably not less, than 1,000 men had resigned from the Northwest Mounted Police in order to serve overseas, and those men have won distinction on all the fields where they fought. I wish I had time to tell the House of some of the deeds of those gallant men. I will only mention two. The famous Michael O'Leary, V.O., was one of the Northwest Mounted Police, and he set a standard for courage and bravery during the early days of the war which many other gallant soldiers have since emulated. The other, a constable in the ranks for two-years-Constable Parkes, a young man now twenty-seven years of age. In 1915 he purchased his discharge to go to the front; he rose to the command of the 116th Battalion, C.E.F., and won the V. C., the D. S. O., and La Croix de Guerre. He proved himself an officer of the highest efficiency, and has been selected by the Canadian Corps to attend the staff college. I might mention other members of the force and the gallant service they have rendered, but time does not permit. I should also mention that ex-members of the force-that is men who had served in the force-provided our Canadian army overseas with two major-generals, four brigadier generals, and colonels, majors and captains by the score. It shows the type of men who are serving in our Royal Northwest Mounted Police. .All the sons, of military age, of the present and past officers have served overseas, and no less than ten officers' sons died on the battlefield. The son of the-first man who joined the force in 1873 is an hon. and gallant member of this House- Brigadier-General Griesbach,' who has rendered such distinguished service in this war. He is o*e of the many gall^pt officers' sons of members of the force who have served overseas.
Now, my hon. friend has asked about the relations of the force to the provinces, and what is the future of the force? The agreements with the provinces having expired, and the provinces having established their own police forces, and so large a percentage of the force having enlisted for overseas service, the question very naturally arose in the minds of the members of the force and of the people *of Western Canada : What is to be the future of the force? Has it served its purpose? Shall we let the provinces look after their own police duties and discontinue the force which has existed for so many years? One of the principal reasons why I visited Western Canada last year was to look into the situation on the ground in order to decide as to the future of the Northwest Mounted Police.

And I must say that wherever I went I found but one opinion-'the force should be continued, that it would be a calamity to discontinue this magnificent force, which rendered such conspicuous service to Western Canada ever since it was organized in 1873.
If it was to be continued what should be its future? There were two possible courses open:	Either that it should form the
nucleus of a permanent Federal police force for the Dominion; or that it should *constitute one of the cavalry units in our permanent military force. That was a question which we felt we were not in a position to decide at the time, and therefore we deemed it advisable to continue the force as a police force in the meantime, leaving the question of what its final character should be to be determined according to circumstances at a later date. But we did determine, and it was necessary we should determine in order to preserve the morale of the force, that the force should not be discontinued, but that the force with its splendid record should be preserved as a national asset for the Dominion.
We concluded that for the time being, at least, there were many important duties which a Federal mounted police force should continue to discharge, and that it was our duty to piaintain it for the performance of those duties. Therefore when my hon. friend asks about the relations of the provinces to the Northwest Mounted Police, I would say that this force at the present time does not take the place of >the provincial or municipal police in any of the provinces in the ordinary administration of the law. It does not supersede them; it supplements their work when required. But its primary duties are in connection with the enforcement of legislation in which the Federal Government is particularly interested. It will appear in the Estimates -the next item to which I referred in opening-that we are proposing that the force should be recruited up to the full authorized strength of 1,200. As the force was only some 600 strong -last year, I only presented estimates for its then existing strength, and as it has been decided to recruit it up to the full authorized strength, the estimates this year are necessarily correspondingly increased.
For some time past the force has been responsible for the enforcement of the Military Service Act; and the various Acts in reference to aliens; the policing of the Dominion Government parks-that is done under an arrangement with the provincial governments, whereby the force looks after
the whole police work in those parks;-it is performing certain duties for the Department of Immigration in administering the immigration laws'; in fact, it has, throughout the war been performing very important duties in seeing that men of undesirable character should not cross the international boundary contrary to the provisions of the immigration laws. It is also performing certain important duties in connection with the Department of Indian Affairs ; it is looking after the patrol of the international boundary and the enforcement of the customs laws; it is also looking after the enforcement of the inland revenue laws in these Western Provinces-all matters in which the Federal Government is particularly interested ; and in addition it provides an important force, available at the call of the provincial governments, for the maintenance of law and order throughout those western territories. In addition it has important duties to perform in the Northwest Territories which I shall mention in a minute or two. I should add that when we decided to continue the force we also decided to extend its jurisdiction to [DOT] British Columbia and to certain portions of Ontario. It will come to the easterly limit of Military District No. 10, the headquarters of which is in the city of Winnipeg. _ The distribution of the proposed force of 1,200 men is as follows:-
Men.
For Manitoba, including' that portion of
Western Ontario	~r.	250
For Saskatchewan	   370
For Aliberta		250
For British Columbia	 2>50
For the Yukon Territory	 50
For the Northwest Territories	 30
Total	1,200
Let me say a word or two with reference to the Northwest Territories. The Royal Northwest Mounted Police is the only police force looking after the administration of justice and the preservation of law and order in the Northwest Territories, and it has similar duties in the Yukon. Probably there is nothing finer in the whole history of the force than the work it is doing in those extreme northern portions of the continent. There are three posts within the Arctic circle, Herschell Island, in the Arctic ocean, Fort McPherson and Barnard Harbour, which is right on the Arctic ocean. When the report of the Mounted Police for this year is printed and particularly when the Supplementary Report which gives an account of the Baker Lake patrol is printed, I hope the members of the House will read both these documents, because the

latter records one of the finest incidents in the -whole history of the force. I stop to mention it because it is just such a fine example of courage and achievement as is disclosed in that report which gives the Eoyal Northwest Mounted Police its splendid reputation and which makes it such a powerful factor in -the preservation of law and order. It shows the respect which the people of the country have for the men who compose the force and it illustrates the manner in which law is enforced and justice administered under the British Crown.
In 1913, two American explorers, Messrs. Street and Radford were murdered by some Eskimo tribes at Bathurst inlet on the Arctic ocean, and this was reported to the Mounted Police. It became their duty to endeavour to hunt up the murderers. It was not possible to send the Mounted Police in 1913 as we had none in that district in 1913. A patrol had to be carefully organized and properly equipped, and that was done in 1914. This patrol set out from Halifax on July 31, 1914, for Chesterfield Inlet on the Northwest side of Hudson's .Bay. The intention was to establish a base at the east end of Baker lake lying west of Chesterfield Inlet, buit owing to adverse weather conditions it was not possible to reach Baker lake in 1914 and so the expedition proceeded to Port Nelson. In 1915 the base was established at Baker Lake and during the winter 1915-16 threw out an advance depot on Thelon river. They had to put in caches ahead to provide provisions and supplies. In 1917 Inspector French took charge and the patrol set out in March, Sergeant-Major Caulkin accompanying Inspector French. They travelled, to go in, 2,483 miles and almost a corresponding distance to come out, the total patrol being not less than 4,500 miles over a territory hitherto untrodden by white men, with the possible exception of one explorer. They had to carry a certain amount of provisions, and for the rest they had to depend upon shooting musk ox and other animals of the country. On their way out their provisions were exhausted; their dogs were impoverished, and they had to keep some of their dogs alive by killing the others and feeding the meat to the dogs. Inspector French and his companions were compelled for three days to live on soup made partially by boiling their moccasins, and then they had to tramp on hour after hour in order to reach their goal. They reached their objective; they made the investigation; they ascertained the facts; they brought fiMr. Rowell.]
back and -presented a full and complete report. It is such courage and devotion to duty _upon the part of our Northwest Mounted Police that give them their unique place in the hearts and affections of the people of Western Canada-a place that nothing can imperil or destroy.
Let me mention one other incident before I leave this point. An Eskimo woman was murdered at Bathurst inlet, and the report of this murder reached the Mounted Police in 1917. One Mounted Policeman, -Corporal Conway, started out in August, 1917, to travel across country into the Arctic circle to endeavour to locate the murderers. That one Mounted Policeman went into the Arctic circle, hunted up the murderers and he arrested them though he was surrounded by hostile Eskimo, and brought them out, and they were tried at Fort McPherson in December, 1918. He was absent from August, 1917 to December, 1918, in those Arctic wilds-one man amongst all the Eskimo people. This shows the respect in which the .Mounted Police are held by all people in that north country. The people know that if a crime is committed, the Mounted Police will hunt at out, follow up the criminal, and that those who are guilty will be punished. It is because we have such a splendid force so valuable for the preservation of law and order that the Dominion Government has decided for the time being that the force should be maintained to the full authorized strength of 1,200 men, for the purposes I have mentioned


Mr. W. H. WHITE:: I am sure all the Western members and, indeed, all members, -were pleased to hear the tribute paid to the Royal Northwest Mounted Police- by the President of the Privy Council. The service rendered by that force is well known throughout Canada. The minister men tioned, amongst other things, that the first Victoria Cross gained during this great war was gained by a member or an ex-membei of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police. The first Victoria Cross thaj was granted in the South African War went also to a member of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, namely, Sergeant A. H. Richardson. I am pleased to note that the minister appreciates this fact because he is in a position to do something to remedy a grievance of long standing which I am not going to mention, but which was given into the hands of an hon. member on the other side, and which, I have no doubt, will be brought up this evening. We are all glad to know that the force instead of being decreased is

to be increased and brought up to full strength. That is right. For the few years during which they were not actively engaged, the law of the country was no*- as well administered and every one felt the effect thereof. The minister, in telling what the intention of the Government was, failed to tell us what is the pay received by the men, non-commissioned officers and officers. That would be of interest, because we in this House might then judge whether they were getting adequate pay for the services rendered.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The pay was increased last autumn by fifty cents per day to all the constables and non-commissioned officers of the force.


William Henry White: What is the total
pay?


Newton Wesley Rowell: A junior constable starts in at $1.50 a day. A married man gets double rations, which would be equivalent to about $3 a day.


William Henry White: I must say that for the services rendered the pay does not seem to be very large, and it must be very difficult for the members of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police to raise a family on that wage, especially when we consider that labourers to-day are striking for $3.50 to $4 a day. The Royal Northwest Mounted Police under the present Administration-I do not know the reason, and I am not going to criticise at the moment-find it harder to get along to-day than they did a few years ago. Perhaps the minister will tell the House why a change in policy was made, as a result of which the men are to-day centered at headquarters in the large cities, where the cost of living is so much greater, irfstead of being distributed throughout the country as they, were formerly. Travelling on 'the trains I meet a great many of these boys, and the complaint I hear is that it is almost impossible for them to live. If the reason for the change in policy is that more efficient service can be rendered by the men being centered in the large cities, the reason is a good one, but I cannot understand the change being made for any other reason, and it undoubtedly causes great hardship to the men. I am told that part of their duty in the city of Edmonton is to exercise their horses. In my time in the Mounted Police the trouble was to make our horses last; we sometimes used to have spare horses. The Government has mentioned some of the duties of the Mounted Police in connection with inland revenue and looking after alien enemies. Under the
present system the Government is put to the extra expense of sending the men, per* haps, a hundred miles down the line to where their services may be needed, and livery or automobiles have ^to be engaged to take them to their place of duty. Under the old system that expense was avoided, and the men could get to where they were required very much quicker when the call for their services came. They would have their horses right there and could render quicker and better service. There was also the advantage I have mentioned of cheaper living in the. small towns. I really cannot understand how a married man, even with double rations, can live in the city of Edmonton on $1.50 a day. It does not seem to be fair, considering the cost of living, and the services these men are rendering the country, and the minister himself has told us what really splendid service it is. The Royal Northwest Mounted Police should be dealt with a little more generously, and it should be made as easy as possible for them to live and bring up a family. Rent in Edmonton to-day is very high, and the cost of living is just as high as in the city of Ottawa. I repeat, I really cannot see how these men can bring up their families on such a wage. I do not think there would be the least objection throughout the country; indeed, I think it would only be fair to the men who are giving such splendid service if the pay started at $2 or $2.50, with the regular good-conduct pay after that,


The CHAIRMAN:: Before this discussion goes any further, I must draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that the item under consideraion is No. 11, which relates only to salaries here at the head office. The discussion has been very interesting, and J do not want to interrupt it any way, but 1 think we should either pass the item now under consideration, or hold this discussion over until we consider item 254, which provides for tihe pay of the force, subsistence, billeting, etc.
Northwest Territories, Yukon Territory, Province of Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, British Columbia and part of Western Ontario-Pay of force, $1,007,984.90-Subsistence, billeting, forage and dog feed, fuel and light, clothing, repairs and renewals, horses, arms and ammunition, stationery, medical stores, transport, water service, building repairs and contingencies, $1,230,520.18-To compensate members of the Royal Nortwest Mounted Police for injuries received while in the discharge of duty, $5,000- $2,24'9,5'05.08.


Mr. COWAN:: It has been my pleasure for some thirty-two years to live within

two miles of the headquarters of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, and during that period I have had the pleasure of following very closely the work that has been done by this excellent body of men. I have been able to see how their administration of the law was accepted by the people of that part of the country, and I fully agree with the President of the Privy Council that when it was decided a few years ago to discontinue the services of the force, the people of Western Canada objected very much. Wherever I heard the people discussing the matter, and I did hear them very often, invariably they expressed exceeding regret that they were to lose the services of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police. It was fully recognized by our people that the provinces had the right to administer the law, and that they were within their rights in asserting themselves, but notwithstanding that, our people did not want to lose the Royal Northwest Mounted Police because they knew that the "red coat" as he was familiarly known carried with him a prestige which no provincial body of men, no matter how good they might be or how free from political influence, could possibly build up for many years to come. After watching this force all these years and seeing what the result of their enforcement of the law has been, I have no hesitation in saying that their administration of the law in the Northwest Territories, and subsequently in the provinces for a period of several years, was the sanest administration of the law that this world has ever seen. A police force can create trouble just about as easily as it can allay it. If given to irritating methods in their administration of the law, to spying or resorting to trickery, or "stool pigeons," or anything of that kind, a police force can in a very short time stir 'up an animosity which will do more harm than can be outweighed by any good that they may do. But no such administration was known under the Royal Northwest Mounted Police. As a matter of fact, ever since I first knew the force it has been composed entirely of picked men; men of low type were not accepted. After the men had been picked and taken in the force, they received a training not only in the law itself, but in the administration of the law, which made it possible for them to give that administration which has been so acceptable to the people of that part of the country. It is not necessary to multiply instances in 
proof of the fact that in the opinion of the people of Western Canada the Royal Northwest Mounted Police has no superior. Such being the case, we are exceedingly desirous that the force shall be continued in our country, and we were just as pleased to learn a year or so ago that the force was to be re-established as we had been regretful to hear some time previously that it was to be disbanded. To-day we are told that the Royal Northwest Mounted Police are to be given practically new duties- naturally their duties will not be the same as they were before, for now we have provincial police forces in all the provinces which will have their own jurisdiction. These new duties will absorb a great deal of the time and attention of the Mounted Police, and will require a very strong force. Among other things, we are told, they are to administer the law made by this Parliament in regard to aliens. I suppose somebody will at once say that probably that means that our alien population in Western Canada requires severe policing. Such is not the case. I know whereof I speak, for I have no less an authority than Commissioner Perry himself,-and he can contradict me any time he sees fit, for he is not very far away-when I say that since the outbreak of the war our alien population in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta (and we have over 300,000 aliens in Saskatchewan) have not given us any trouble at all. There has been no rioting, and they have caused no disturbance. The Royal Northwest Mounted Police have so sanely administered the law and have dealt with them in such a just and generous manner that they have never felt in any way called upon to resort to violence. The aliens today, at any rate wherever I have met them, have shown that they know that the 'Royal Northwest Mounted Police will not tolerate any nonsense. They recognize that the police will administer the law with a smile and will not resort to trickery or anything of that kind, and that they will give to the aliens exactly the same protection as is afforded other people, all that is expected oF them being that they shall respect the law. The aliens in that part of the country to-day are just as willing and anxious as any one else to have the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, for they know that they will be given protection as long as they obey the law. That is exactly the conditions that we -want to see prevailing in Western Canada. We do not want any aliens to feel that they have to be kept there by force; they must be mdde to realize that

the law is their law, as much for their protection as for that of any other citizens. I doubt very much if there is any other police body that could deal with these aliens at the present time as can the Royal Northwest Mounted Police. There is, it must be admitted, some excitement in Canada today, and a certain amount of ill-feeling on the part of a portion of the population towards some aliens, and it would not do to choose any number of policemen from amongst that type of men to enforce the law against these aliens or to deal with them in any shape or form, because if we do so we shall create instead of allaying trouble. On the other hand, the Mounted Police, from their experience in dealing with this class of people, can go amongst them, as they have done for years and years, and so conduct matters as to give us law and order without any clash at all. We do not want clash between any two sets of people, and I am satisfied that the Royal Mounted Police can effect that condition better than any other body. The matter of pay was referred to by the hon. member for Victoria, Alberta (Mr. White), who, I believe, was himself a member of the Royal Mounted Police, and whom we are pleased to recognize as such. As far as pay is concerned, I believe that the men are not getting sufficient. Indeed, for many years they have not been getting enough, and I do not believe they were ever paid an adequate salary. We should remember that these are picked men, who have the ability to command high pay in any walk of life, and men of their type should not be asked to serve the country for lower pay than they can get elsewhere. I therefore support the suggestion that their pay be made such as will retain to our country the services of men who have had experience and training and know precisely how to handle the situation as it exists to-day. I sincerely hope that in this new arrangement the Government will see fit to make use of the large body of men who have served in the Mounted Police and who are now following other occupations. There is a great reserve body which can be made use of in the capacity that is required, and I hope the Government will take them into consideration in this new arrangement, and adapt their policy to that end.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I did not hear all the minister had to say, but the portion of his remarks that I did hear I very gladly endorse, especially his eulogies of this splendid body of men and his view's in regard to their excellent record. I shall not discuss
the points raised by the other speakers regarding higher pay and other matters connected with the force at present. I wish, however, to bring to the attention of the House a matter which I believe should be considered by the Government, and I think that if there is a favourable expression of opinion by the House to-night, the ./Government will perhaps be inclined to give it consideration.
It is a matter of long standing and perhaps may be considered somewhat out of date, but in view of the very eulogistic terms in which the minister spoke of the service and the record of this force, I think this is an opportune time to look back for a few years and consider whether we have dealt justly with these men in the past. To quote the minister's words, they have a splendid reputation and record, and, added the minister, there have seldom been such exhibitions of courage and heroism as we see constantly manifested throughout the years by this splendid force. Indeed, this is a matter of history, and with these sentiments the people of the country generally are in accord, especially those who have lived in the West for a great many years, who have learned not only to respect and honour these men, but to admire them in the highest degree. The force has been particularly fortunate in the splendid leaders it has had in the past, and the sanity of its administration has been largely due to that leadership and the discipline and excellent record of the men individually. At the time of the Northwest Rebellion, I suppose that of all the forces engaged in that rebellion the Royal Northwest Mounted Police can very properly be accorded one of the highest places, if not the highest place. These men gave their services at that time, and although it is true they were simply doing their plain duty, they did splendid work. After the rebellion was over the militia and other forces were [DOT]granted scrip in recognition of their services. lit was, not very valuable, but still it was a recognition. They were given a medal and scrip and for many years the Northwest Mounted Police were unable even to get the medal in recognition of their splendid services during that rebellion. I cannot understand why there should have been the delay there was, but after a great many years, and after the matter had been brought to the attention of the successive *Governments of the times during which it was in abeyance, a medal was finally granted to them, but no scrip was ever given to the veterans of the Northwest Mounted Police. This matter has been dealt



with at various times without success, and I am going to take the liberty, with the indulgence of the Committee, of reading a letter placed in my hands and a resolution by the Royal Northwest (Mounted Police Veterans' Association. This association numbers about 400 members who have served in this splendid body and have retired. A great many of them are now well on in years, having spent most of their life in the police service, and some of them are none too well off. The letter is as follows:
Royal North-West Mounted Police Veterans' Association.
Sir,-At a meeting of the RJN.W.M. Police Veterans' Association held on the 25th day of March last, the matter of long-standing injustice to those members of the force who served during the Riel Rebellion in the year 1885 was discussed'.
For several years after the rebellion both the medal and the land scrip were withheld from the members of this force, but' both the medal and, scrip were issued to other units, both regulars (A and B battery) and! volunteers, taking part. After years of long and continued insistence, the medals were issued to members of this force 'but not the land scrip, Why the discrimination in favour of other bodies taking part in the rebellion, against the (North-West Mounted Police has never been explained. That the N.W.M. Police did their duty equally with the other units engaged, was in a measure acknowledged (though late) by the issue of the medal, therefore if it be admitted that the medal was rightly issued, why is the scrip withheld?
Therefore, it is unanimously resolved:- " That this Association one more petition the Government of Canada to do justice to those members of the R.N.W.M. Police who took part in the Rebellion, that the scrip be issued, thereby removing the stigma and injustice to those who gave their loyal and faithful service. That the Government be reminded that members of this force, have, on many occasions since, performed valuable service to this country, and more especially have many of them brought honour to Canada in the South African War and in the last great war, also that the members who took part in the 18'8'5 rebellion, and who we strongly belileve are entitled to the land scrip, are now getting up in years, and the issue of the scrip at this time, would enable many of them to end their [DOT]days with some degree of comfort, together with the satisfaction of the knowledge of the recognition of their loyal and faithful service for the Dominion of Canada and Empire."
C. R. Filtness, Secy.
In answer to that itr has been stated and argued that this matter has been considered by the governments of Sir John Macdonald, Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Sir Robert Borden, and that the present Government feel that the decision arrived at by previous governments should be sustained. That decision was that inasmuch as the Royal Northwest Mounted Police were simply doing their duty in putting down the rebellion, they were not entitled to this scrip, flMr. Stevens.]
that they were not on a parity with the volunteers and that the scrip was for volunteers only. In answer to that contention, there are certain arguments which I think I should bring to the attention of the House. You will note that I referred to the fact that A and B Batteries which, I think came from Kingston, were engaged. They were regular soldiers doing their duty in exactly the same way as the Mounted Police. Yet A and B Batteries received the privilege of taking land scrip just the same as the militia units. I do not wish to suggest that there was any prejudice but I must confess that, after looking through this matter with a considerable degree of care, I am inclined to think that perhaps at the time of the rebellion, and shortly afterwards, there was indeed some slight degree of prejudice against the men of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police and that the militia units, and the commanders of the militia units, may have considered that their special duty was to look after the volunteer forces and not the regulars, that the Mounted Police should take care of themselves in any case, being regular soldiers, and that therefore they did not merit any special attention. I do not look at the matter in that light at all.
It seems that this is a very opportune time to consider the case of the members of this force in view of the statement made by the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Cowan) to the effect that there is some difficulty in retaining the services of some of the most efficient men by reason of the fact that the encouragement is very slight and is probably not isufflcient. I am not going to discuss that but I will say that the men of this gallant force, at the conclusion of a certain period of service, should be entitled to recognition, whether land scrip or something else, that would be an encouragement for them.
There is no body of men in existence to-day, nor has there been in all history, even taking the illustration given by the minister himself, which hap performed such valiant service in opening up to the world that new country. We may talk about explorers and about the records of the members of the geological survey and other survey parties, but these pioneers who, in performance of their duty, launched forth into the wilderness away up into the Arctic circle, and who were often away from civilization for two or three years at a time, learned to know all about those regions, and from them and from
9 p.m. the very minute and intelligent reports they gave to their officers

and to the department, we know a great deal about the hinterland of Canada. Unquestionably, many of these men would gladly settle in some region where they have spent the greater portion of their lives as civilization and city life have little attraction for them. But we give them absolutely no encouragement. We give them the small pay of the regular force. I do not know that they have complained very much about that, but why should not we not only recognize the services of these men in the Northwest Rebellion of 1885, hut also give a gratuity of some kind to which the members of the force might look forward?
Another point I have to make is this: It is not a very important point, but I am led to make it because apparently it is necessary to make every possible argument in favour of these men to enable them to get any consideration at all. It was argued that these men were not on the same basis as the volunteers. The answer to that is that they were under the command of the volunteer militia of Canada. You may say that is quibbling, you may say it is too fine an argument, but if you are going to tell these men that they are not going to receive this gratuity because they are simply regulars, I answer that I will quibble as well, if you like to call it that, and I will say that at that time they were under exactly the same commanders as the militia force of Canada and in my judgment one argument has equal force with the other.
It is also stated that there was too great a delay, that the matter should have been brought to the notice of the Government before. It has been brought to the attention of the House on many occasions. It has been brought to the attention of the Government over and over again from the time of Sir John Macdonald upwards. But there is a reason for that delay in recent years, and it is that many members of the police force serving in 1885 remained on the strength of the force for a certain time and during that time it would have been a serious breach of discipline on the part of the members to urge their claim for land scrip. That is obvious. That is not a narrow or stringent argument, it is a fair statement of the case. We know that these men have been under the strictest discipline. None know better than the Government or the Government officials that had these men, while they were still members of the force, brought any particular pressure to bear upon the Government to induce them to grant this scrip, they would have been
148i
very severely disciplined for doing so, and, it may be wisely so-that is a point that I am not disputing. Now that they are out of the force, after long years of service, they have, like other bodies, grouped themselves together in this Veterans' Association, and they come to the Government and say: Now, give us justice.
Sir, I consider that a grave injustice has been done these men, not only in not giving them their medals after so many years' service, but in not giving them this scrip. It may be argued that it is late, but that is no argument or real reason why we should hesitate to make good the discrepancy now. I think if it is recognized, and I am sure the Committee will be prompt to recognize it, that an injustice has been perpetrated in this case, we should agree at once that the injustice should be remedied forthwith. There is another reason why delay has occurred. The question was raised in 1913, but shortly after that the war broke out, and it was not desirable to press the matter while hostilities were in progress. That is perfectly clear. This House was occupied during almost the last five years in the consideration of the most momentous questions. To have brought this matter up during that period would have looked rather trifling, and therefore it was not brought forward. Now that the war is over, and we are able to give some sort of cleaning to the slate, as it were, I think we might very well clean this matter off. The feeling has arisen in the minds of these men that they have been discriminated against, and I must confess that after talking to a large number of them, and finding them not only intelligent, but intensely loyal and splendid fellows in every respect, I was impressed with the fact that they were suffering under discrimination, that there was no fair, logical reason that could be advanced why they should not have received this scrip lopg ago, and I see no fair, logical reason why it should not be given them to-day. There is no argument so far as I can see, that can be advanced against doing what is requested here, except that it is not wanted to be done. Now, Sir, I put it to the minister personally, and as strongly as I can, that he recognize the courage and the heroism of these men, that he recognize the services that they have performed in the past by admitting their just claim-a claim unanimously advanced by this association, numbering about four hundred; not a very large number, in fact a comparatively small one-and give to them the privilege of taking up scrip somewhere in the Government lands in the West, just as

the Militia Force of Canada at that time were rewarded with scrip. I am not going to argue as to the type of scrip to be granted; I do not care, nor do they, what reasonable restrictions are imposed. In any case, give to these men in the closing years of life, the satisfaction of knowing that they have at last been fully recognized, and remove from their minds all thought or suspicion that the country does not recognize that they have w'ell performed their duty.


Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie: This is probably one of the most important items in the expenditure affecting Canada, more particularly the Western Provinces, although the amount involved is not large. I agree with all the words of praise which have been uttered on behalf of the Eoyal Northwest Mounted Police, and if every member in this House to-night were to utter similar praise I do not believe that we would overstate the case on behalf of these valiant men. They have rendered a service to Western Canada which could not have been performed by any other body of men; and the difference between the pioneer days in our country beyond the Great Lakes, and those in the Western States-a difference in which Canada compares very favourably with the pioneer period of any other country in the world-is due to the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, and the traditions which have been established in connection with that magnificent body of men. The red tunics of the police as they rode over the plains of the West created an impression upon the minds of the man who came in there, whether as a genuine settler or as an outlaw, that the affairs of this Dominion were administered in accordance with the principles of law and on the basis of justice and equity for all. It was impossible in those early days for any mischievous doctrines such as now appear to be in order to make any headway in that Western country, and I am very glad that the Government has seen fit to re-establish this fine force in connection with the administration of law in the West. I must confess that I was somewhat surprised when I heard the minister announce that the force was to be increased to the extent of only twelve hundred men, and that it was to exercise jurisdiction over the Northwest Territories, the Yukon Territory, the provinces of British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, and part of Western Ontario. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that if the force had been increased to

some three thousand men instead of twelve hundred, the Government would not be providing any stronger force than is necessary to administer law in Western Canada. We might just as well face the facta as they exist. We know that the conditions that prevail throughout the civilized world-whether it be in Europe, or in Great Britain, or in the United States, or in Canada-are vastly different from those which previously existed at any time in the world's history. We know that in the past days men have gone through Canadian cities preaching their doctrines from soap boxes at street corners, and little heed or attention was paid to them. We know throughout the United States and throughout Canada at the present time, however, there are many disciples of anarchy, and men who are advocating secretly, and in some cases openly, the subversion of law and order by means of physical force. We cannot close our eyes to this serious condition, and it is the duty of this Government to establish a body of police to so administer our law that any man who comes from a land where they have trampled the government under foot and resisted all law shall be taught that he cannot come and preach that doctrine in Canada with impunity, but must be bound by the law and observe order here. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that if there is any fault to be found with this Government in connection with that question, it is that it has not taken the reins of justice in its hands as firmly as it should have done. I believe the Government has been too lenient with a certain class of people who are going throughout the country sowing the seed of anarchy and destruction. The men to whom I allude urge the overthrow of the Government not by means of argument or reason, or process of evolution; they advocate that all governments in the world shall be overthrown by physical force and violence. It is the duty of the force, to whose maintenance we are voting money to-night to go throughout the length and breadth of the territory confined to their care and where they find men-I care not whether they come from Germany, or Russia, or Austria, or any other country- who preach the doctrine that the Government of Canada should be overthrown by violence and force, and that the laws on our statute books should be resisted by physical force, they should gather those men in and ship them back to the country where such principles are in force.

The Northwest Mounted Police may have had a great work on their hands in pioneer days, but I believe that they have a far greater work on their hands at the present time. As has been pointed out by the member for Regina, they have succeeded in enforcing observance of the law and commanding order in this country, not by violence themselves, but by the great care and tact they have shown in the performance of their duties. We want that same class of man now to exercise those same qualities, to uphold the dignity of the law as they upheld it in the pioneer days of the west, and if they do that they will render the greatest service to this country that can possibly be rendered by any police body.	'	'
Now, if we ask 1,200 men to perform those duties, are we not placing upon them a greater burden than they can bear and perform their duties efficiently? Their jurisdiction wiE extend from the remote parts of the Yukon Territory to the remote parts of western Ontario-1,200 men scatr tered over that vast area. I submit that their duties cannot be performed with justice to this country. I submit, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister that he should reconsider his decision to increase this body to 1,200 men, and should have anywhere from three to five thousand men. It might involve an expenditure of $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 instead of $2,000,000 or $3,000,000. But would it not be better to spend that larger sum and rid our country of men who are a menace, men who are the opponents of law and order and justice? Would we not save much for the future? I care not about any man in this country who may hold views of government which are different from those held by the majority. Any man has the right to perfect freedom of speech, he can argue for any form of government he pleases as long as he proceeds by constitutional methods to arrive at that destination; but the line of demarcation is between that class of men-who are welcome in this country-and the class who come here or who are living here and who say: We know no law, we know no government; we are going to upset governments, we are going to resist laws by the utmost physical force and by the violence which we command. We do not want that class.
I want to point out to the Government that when the Northwest Mounted Police have come in contact with those men, and meted out speedy justice to them, as they must, their hands must be upheld, there
must be no political interference, there must be no sympathy shown, the law must be supreme and they should be backed to the limit. We want to rid our country of lawless agitators, and the sooner we put this machinery in operation and rid ourselves of that revolutionary element the better for the Dominion of Canada and the better for her lawful citizens.


Mr. MANION:: It seems almost superfluous after all the praise that has been lavished upon the Northwest Mounted Police for any one to add to that praise. However, the speakers who have preceded me are all from the Western Provinces, Manitoba, Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia, and as the jurisdiction of the force is to be extended to the head of the lakes, I wish to commend the Government for having reached that decision.
I have heard nothing but praise of that action, for the reason that every one in Western Ontario is glad to have a body of such noble traditions placed in charge of the enforcement of law and order in their territory. I have heard on one or two occasions very slight criticism, but it was from those who thought perhaps law and order should not be preserved.
The hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Tweedie) has advocated strengthening the Northwest Mounted Police Force for the purpose of preserving law and order. I believe the Government has studied very carefully the possibilities of strengthening the Force and I thoroughly agree that they should at least be recruited up to 1,200 men as is proposed. If the strengthening of the Force is for the purpose of keeping down Bolshevism and revolution in this country,
I believe the Government is well advised in the course it has taken. No one wishes this country to get in the chaotic condition which has overtaken Russia. Bolshevism means lawlessness, it means hunger and starvation, it means disruption, and we do not wish those conditions to extend to Canada.
I would like, if one might suggest to the Government what has been suggested to them a number of times recently by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Michael Clark), that they do something more than they have already done-and I know they have deeply considered the subject-regarding the control of the high cost of living. I hope this is not out of order, Mr. Chairman, inasmuch as I believe that the two things go together: the strengthening of the Northwest Mounted Police, and the control as far as possible of the high cost of living, for the reason that

Bolshevism is simply another name for revolution; and hunger is the legitimate mother of revolution. People do not revolt when they are -happy, contented and well fed; they revolt when the high cost of living is beyond their reach-and to-day in this country the cost of living is beyond the reach of a great many people, perhaps not to the extent of starvation, but to the extent of forcing them to deny themselves many of those things that they had previously considered to be the necessaries of life.
The reason I mention this matter is that I hold in my hand a letter from Mr. R. J. McFall to the City Clerk of Fort William bearing on this question. He takes up a number of cases-I will not read the letter- of violations of the law by the cold storage warehouses in the neighbourhood. He names four cold storage warehouses, and he gives instances of violations of the law, totalling altogether 40, in regard to selling the necessaries of life to the people of this country, in other words, meat and eggs. To my mind, one of the reasons- why we should extend the power of the Northwest Mounted Police is because the high cost of living is due to the profiteering of such corporations, and that is why I wish to put this matter before the House. It possibly is stretching the order point a little in bringing it in here-


Georges Henri Boivin: I am very sorry, but it is stretching it altogether too far. The hon. gentleman cannot be allowed to do so.


Robert James Manion: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Chairman. But I still adhere to the point, without going further in discussing it, that two things are equally necessary-that the control of the high cost of living is as necessary as the expansion of the powers of the Northwest Mounted Police. I regret, Mr. Chairman, that you find it necessary to stop me proceeding with these details, because I think they would be interesting not only to the House and to you personally, but probably to the country at large. However, perhaps on another occasion I shall have an opportunity of dealing with the subject; but at least now I can go as far as to suggest that the Government should do everything -possible to control the high cost of living.
I wish to say that I support very strongly the proposal to strengthen the Northwest Mounted Police up to at least 1,200 men.


Mr. KEEFER:: Mr. Chairman, I differ with my friend (Mr. Manion) from the sister city in asking that the Force be increased only to 1,200 men. Their jurisdiction is to be extended to the

head of the lakes, and we know what their services are. In the past, some of us have had business relations with them, not in being arrested, but in carrying out the work which they have initiated. The policy of the Government is, I understand, to recruit up to the full strength of 1,200 men, but that is too small a number, judging from the number of foreign people in the large cities of the West. As the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Tweedie) said, the force ought to be increased to probably 5,000 as a permanent force. We have some rather dangerous days ahead of us; there are in this country places to-day where there are hotbeds breeding a possible revolution, and the best force to meet that is the Royal Northwest Mounted Police. We have altogether too few of them in Canada.
I would ask the minister to take into serious consideration some recognition of members of the force who went overseas for the time they were away. I made a promise to a carload of them about the first year of the war. I noticed about as fine a lot of men in "civies" as one would want to see anywhere coming down on the train, and wondered who they were. I went forward and sat in the car with them and found out that they were Northwest Mounted policemen, going back to serve in the Imperial forces, many of them being reservists. While I chatted with them they urged one thing upon me, and I promised that if I ever had an opportunity I would bring it forward, namely, that as they were giving up a dollar a day pay to go overseas to serve and draw one shilling a day in England, if they came back to this country, Canada should, in some way, give them a little nest egg or stake to induce them to return, so that they would have something to settle down on and marry and become citizens of this country. The proposition seemed so reasonable that I promised to do what I could. I wrote the commissioner about the matter at the time and got his reply, the only reply he could give, namely, that Parliament had made no such provision. It is not yet settled that these Northwest Mounted policemen who have gone over and served in the Imperial forces will receive the six months' pay that our Canadian soldiers are getting. It is true they will get the six months' pay or bonus from the Imperial forces, but that will amount to only about $120, whereas if they had enlisted with the Canadian troops they would receive a bonus

of six months' pay of $500 or $600.
I understand there is difficulty in getting men of the right sort, and where can better men be obtained than amongst those who have had experience, and who have served overseas? Why not urge those men to come back and say to them: If you come back, not only will you be reinstated and your time count for the whole period you have been away, but the difference between the dollar a day you were receiving and the one shilling, or two shillings as it was afterwards increased to, will be paid to you? That will show our appreciation. Canada did that with some of her civil servants in the first part of the war, and why should we not do it with the very best civil servants we have? Vie should let those men know in every way we possibly can that we appreciate their services. We have possibly dark days ahead of us, and we have two police forces in Canada, one the Northwest Mounted Police, and the other the Dominion Police. They are not members of any union; the Government have not the trouble with them that the city of Montreal or Toronto and other places have with their police force; they are loyal to the country, and any reasonable demand that they make should receive most careful consideration. They cannot urge their grievances as strongly as others can. For instance, there is the question of the bonus which is given to the Civil Service. It is a little out of order, but if the Dominion Police have a request regarding that, it should be most generously met, and we should not wait too long, until we turn their sympathies against us. I merely ask the minister if he will take into his most serious consideration the question of doing something for those men who were on the force, who enlisted and went overseas to serve in British regiments. I had a letter from Curragh camp a year after I had travelled with those boys, and the writer said; " Do you remember the fellow you were talking to in the train along the north shore of lake Superior? Here I am stuck at Curragh camp because they know that I am experienced in training men. Do you remember that freckled-faced boy with the green hat and the blue suit of clothes? That was Micky O'Leary who got the V.C. I wish I could get over and get the V.C. too. That is the type of men we should get back into the force. I urge strongly upon the minister not only to increase the force, but to bring back all the men who went overseas to serve with the colours.


Newton Wesley Rowell: With reference to the observations of various members, I should
first like to say a word or two regarding the observations of the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) who has brought to the attention of the Committee the question of granting scrip to the members of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police who served in the Rebellion of 1885. It is only right that I should give the Committee the' position of the matter as disclosed in the records of the House at that time. At the time when the rebellion occurred Sir John A. Macdonald, who was the minister responsible for the establishment of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, was, I believe, the minister in charge of the administration of the force. The reason why the Mounted Police were not granted the scrip appears to be that stated by the hon. member for Vancouver Centre, namely, that the then Government looked upon their service as being rendered in the performance of duty, as they were responsible for the administration of law, and the preservation of order in the Northwest at that, time, and that the citizen soldiers who left their homes in other parts of Canada and went to the Northwest to put down the rebellion were in a different position. That is the ground upon which the then Prime Minister put the case for granting scrip to the volunteers. This is his statement as it appears in Hansard of 1885, page 3376;
We all agree that the services of our citizen soldiery, who have left their homes and their hearths in order to fight the battles of the country in the Northwest, and to restore peace, order and law, where disorder and insurrection existed, should be duly acknowledged. These resolutions are offered with that purpose, and they are offered with the secondary purpose of opening up that country for the young men of that soldiery, who have seen the Northwest, who know its advantages, and who may, perhaps, take a liking to the country and desire to settle there. It is of great importance too, I think, to tjhat country, and to the whole Dominion, that a considerable portion of that body should take up their habitation in the Northwest to which they have gone as loyal soldiers and as supporters of the supremacy of the law and of the Government of Canada, as, it is constituted.
The then Prime Minister went on to say that it was more than probable that a good portion of the militia force then on duty in the Northwest, would not desire to settle there, hut might return to their homes,_ and yet the Government should take recognition of their valuable services. Every one who settled there had the same right as any other settler to 160 acres of land. What was. then proposed was to give a second adjoining homestead of 160 acres, or 320 acres in all, instead of the usual 160 acres, and that they should receive their patent free of all charges. Those who return**

home and did not become settlers, would get scrip for 80 acres as an acknowledgment of their services. In concluding his explanation Sir John A. Macdonald said:
The resolutions have a two-fold object. First, that there should be a substantial recognition, beyond the mere daily pay of the militia men who went to the Northwest to fight our battles, of their services, by making them grants of land, or scrip if they don't want to have the land, and at the same time making a distinction between the men who will not settle there and the men who will. The man who does not, and who returns home, gets scrip equivalent to 80 acres; the man who goes there and settles there gets 320 acres.
In 1885 the militia men who were engaged in putting down the rebellion were awarded a medal. Under date of July 10, 1886, the medal was given to the Mounted Police, who were " actually under fire during the said troubles."
At different times the Northwest Assembly passed resolutions asking that the Mounted Police and the volunteers attached to the force be treated the same as the active militia as far as medals and scrip were concerned. In reply to the resolution of the Assembly of [September 12, 1893, the Dominion Government passed an Order in ' Council refusing the request. This Order, under date of June 30, 1894, says:
When the subject of rewards for services during the rebellion was under the consideration of the Government, a distinction was made between the Mounted Police, whose ordinary duties of maintaining law and order were within the limits of the disturbed districts, and the militia, who were called upon to leave their homes and occupations, at great personal inconvenience, resulting in many cases, in serious embarrassment to themselves and families. This distinction was marked by excluding the police from participation in the issue of scrip and by limiting the issue of the medal to those members of the Northwest [Mounted Police Force who were actually under Are.
For these reasons the scrip and medals to those not under fire were not granted. That was the successor to the Government of Sir John Macdonald. So the matter was before not only the Government of Sir John Macdonald, but before the Conservative Government of his immediate successor. Then the matter came before the Government of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, who was also the head of the administration of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, and on the 20th of August, 1900, an Order in Council was passed recommending that " The Northwest Mounted Police who were on service in the Northwest Territories during the period of rebellion of 1885 should he dealt with as far as regards the medal, in the same manner as members of'the active 
militia. ' So that the Order in Council of 10th July, 1886, was amended by striking out the words "who were actually under fire during the said troubles." In other words, the Mounted Police who were not under fire got the medal, but the law was not changed with reference to the grant of scrip, the Government adhering to the decision already reached by two preceding Governments.
The request was subsequently renewed to the Government which preceded the present one, and the same conclusion was reached. Therefore, when the matter came before the present Government, in view of the decision which had been reached by each successive Government during the period from 1886 down to date, the present Government thought it was not justified in opening up this olcf matter and changing the basis upon which this scrip was granted.
With reference to the Veterans Association to which my hon. friend has referred, I have nothing but the highest appreciation of that force and the branches of it at Vancouver and Victoria. I think it is only right to say that these men have offered to serve as a reserve force. They have made a very fine offer to the Government, and in the Bill which I hope to introduce into the House this week, because certain amendments to the law are rendered necessary by the changes which are being made,
I intend asking the House to approve of a provision in the law whereby a reserve of the Northwest Mounted Police may be created and these men who have served their country with such distinction as members of the^ force in the past constitute a reserve which may be called upon in emergency.
The hon. member for Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) has brought out one fact to-night which had not come to my knowledge before, and that was that members of the permanent force in Canada did receive some recognition in the way of scrip. That matter I shall be glad to look into and see if it affects the situation as it comes before the Government.
My hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. White) mentioned the question of the pay of the Mounted Police. Since the force came under my administration, two or three important changes have been made with reference to pay. First the pay has been increased fifty cents a day. Separation allowance is provided for the wives of all married men, and will continue to be provided until the general demobilization of the militia force is complete. An additional ration has

also been granted to each married man, so that all these combined constitute a substantial addition to the pay. I believe there is good ground for considering that probably some further advance should be made in the pay, and in the Bill which I expect to introduce I purpose recommending to the House that power be given to make a further increase in the pay of the mounted police. Members of the House will also bear in mind that in addition to the pay, pensions are provided for service in the force; and that has to be taken into consideration in considering the pay. As the law stands at present, a man who serves twenty years becomes entitled to a pension upon retirement. In the amendment which I contemplate bringing in, I purpose recommending to the House that the pension also be substantially increased. When these provisions are before the House I think that the hon. member for Victoria will feel that we are dealing absolutely fairly with the members of the force.
With reference to members of the force serving in the Arctic regions, I may say that a special allowance is made to them. They get a larger allowance than men serving in the better settled portions of the country, due no doubt to the higher cost of living in those higher latitudes. The hon. member for Victoria also asked why the force was not now as widely distributed as it was before. The chief reason is this: The provincial authorities, of course, are now responsible for the ordinary administration of law and order throughout the province, and it is not. necessary, having regard to the present duties of the force, that they should, be located in every town and village throughout 'the country.


William Henry White: I asked why they were centred in the large cities, because a great deal of their service is performed at some distance from headquarters. A man may have to go down the line a hundred miles from Edmonton, for instance, and then have to hire a car to take him to where he is required. If a detachment was located at Vermilion or Lloydminster, we will say, the men could go out from there at less expense, and it would be much cheaper for the married men to live and bring up their families; I also think they might be able to perform better service.


Newton Wesley Rowell: When the force is recruited up to strength there will be more detachments than at present. At present the view that those responsible for the
administration of the force entertain is that there is some gain in having a reasonably strong body of police at certain important points throughout the country. As regards the point raised by my hon. friend from Fort William (Mr. Manion) I shall not enter into a discussion of the cost of living. I appreciate what he says about the fine service which the force is rendering and the appreciation of the people of Northwestern Ontario of the fact that there is a force stationed there. My hon. friend from West Calgary (Mr. Tweedie) and my hon. friend from Port Arthur (Mr. Keefer) both spoke on the question of increasing the force beyond the present strength. We are recruiting the force up to the present authorized strength, namely 1,200.


Francis Henry Keefer: I\s it 1,200 yet?


Newton Wesley Rowell: It is not yet up to 1,200. My hon. friend from Port Arthur spoke about our asking the men who had been in the force and had gone overseas serving in Imperial units to come back into the force. That is part of the policy of the Government, and we have taken steps to bring to the attention of former members of the force who are now serving in Imperial units the fact that we shall be glad to welcome them back into the force.


Francis Henry Keefer: Do these men know of these new regulations?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Some of them are only covered by the new Bill which is to be brought into the House, but the (substance of the regulations was posted up in France. We endeavoured as well as we could to Teach the men in the Imperial units, but it is not an easy matter to get into touch with men so widely scattered in so large a force. However, we have provided that any man who retired from the force in order to serve overseas in either the Canadian or the Imperial forces shall have his time service overseas counted in computing his pension, so that they will all have the benefit of the increased pension which we are providing and also the benefit, in computing the time for the pension, of the service they have rendered overseas.


Francis Henry Keefer: Has the Government considered extending the war service gratuity to the members of the Mounted Police who served in the Imperial forces?


Newton Wesley Rowell: That is a much larger
question, because there are not only the members of the Mounted Police who served in the Imperial forces but thousands of other men who went overseas to serve in
2.330

the Imperial forces. I do not see how it is possible to grant a supplementary war gratuity to men who left one branch of our service to serve overseas in the Imperial forces, and not treat every other British reservist in the same way. That is a question of policy which will have to be considered in relation to other departments of the Government as well as the Royal Northwest Mounted Police. I said that we were recruiting up to the present strength. Possibly we should recruit beyond that strength, but that is a question that will have to receive very careful consideration and is now under the consideration of the .Government. If we decide to recruit beyond 1,200 it will be necessary for me to come to the House with a Supplementary Estimate to cover it. The present Estimates only cover recruiting up to 1,200.


William Henry White: How many commissions have been granted? In increasing tlie force there must be a great many officers, and I would like to know whether non-commissioned officers and others in the ranks are receiving any special consideration. Are the Government granting commissions to men in the lower ranks, or are they going outside of the force for their officers?
. Mr. ROWELL: Every commission so far granted has been a promotion from the ranks.


William Henry White: In support of the
remarks made by the hon. member for Centre Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) pointing out that permanent corps like A and B batteries received their scrip, I may say further that not only did the regular batteries receive it but a great many of the settlers that came into police headquarters or barracks as refugees with their families were sworn in to do guard duty. All these home guards really came in for protection but they were sworn to do duty while the police were out on patrol, and they were granted scrip as well as the others. I hope the minister has heard what I have said about that.


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes, ll will note it.
Supplementary Estimates, 1918-1919-Civil Government Royal Northwest Mounted Police-*
To provide for a clerkship in the Second Division, Subdivision A, from December 1, 1918- $533.32.


Newton Wesley Rowell: This man was promoted by the Civil Service Commission, and this is to provide the difference between his former salary and the promotion.

Civil Government-Public Works.
Salaries including: Deputy Minister at $6,000, Assistant Deputy Minister at $4,500, and Departmental Solicitor at $3,500-$575,537.50.


Mr. F. B. CARVELL (Minister of Public Works):: When this matter was
under consideration last, the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) asked some questions in reference to increase of salary of $1,000 to the Deputy Minister. I do not see the hon. member in his place now. It will be borne in mind that the same increase has been granted to the Deputy Minister of Public Works as to all other Deputy Ministers in the public service. I can give no further explanation, because there is none to give. It has been decided as a matter of policy that all deputy ministers shall receive a salary of $6,000 a year, There are only two other items in regard to which inquiry was made. I was asked what had been the reduction in the inside service of the Public Works Department since I assumed the duties of office. There were actually in the department in October, 1917, 307 officials; in April 1919, there were 277 officials, or a reduction of 30. I was also asked how much of the total vote had not been expended last year because the positions were not all filled. The amount voted was $574,955, and we expended $503,130, leaving $71,825 unexpended. I imagine that in the appropriation I am asking for to-night there will be more than that amount which will not be expended. As some salaries may go up, I have decided to ask for an appropriation such as this but I want to assure the Committee that in future, as in the past, there will be no increase in the staff unless it is absolutely necessary. As fast as people leave the service by death or marriage, or whatever the cause may be, there will be no appointment to fill these positions unless they are actually necessary. I think, therefore, that there would be a larger balance unexpended at the end of the present fiscal year than there was at the end of last year.


Thomas Foster: The minister made a saving last year of $70,000 and he still asks for about the same sum this year. Why not reduce the Estimates proportionately if he expects to employ fewer rather than more? Does he expect to have a surplus next year?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I certainly think we will not expend the amount asked for in the appropriation.


Thomas Foster: You had a surplus last year of $70,000. Your Estimates should be reduced by that amount.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am rather inclined to agree with my hon. friend, but in making up these Estimates in the department there is a strong feeling that we must provide for all contingencies, although I confess it does not look like good business.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Who is the chief architect of the Public Works Department?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Mr. Wright,


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What has become of our good old friend, the late chief architect, Mr. Ewart?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Mr. Ewart is still in the department. He occupies a very responsible position as a sort of consulting architect in connection with the construction of the Parliament buildings. I want to say in the most public manner possible that I look upon him as perhaps one of the most valuable men we have in connection with the construction of that new building. While he is considerably over eighty years of age, he possesses all his faculties, he is at his office early and late and very many times in every month I call upon Mr. Ewart for information and he is always ready with it.


Thomas Foster: I see that there is an appropriation of $44,000, an increase of $14,000, for travelling expenses. It looks as if there is going to be more travelling, or more joy riding.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: In my judgment no
money can be expended by any department, especially the department of Public Works, more profitably than that which is properly expended for travelling expenses. I have found occasion, several times during the past year, to send men from Halifax to Vancouver. We have expended on the construction of military hospitals and other military buildings, since the first of April in the last fiscal year
10 p.m. nearly $10,000,000. ^ There is hardly a day when a report does not come in from one of these stations, and we have found that we get the best results by sending a man from Ottawa to make a personal examination, come back and not only make a report but sit down and talk it over. I am personally asking for that increase. I will defend it as vigorously as may be necessary and I look upon it as the best way in which we can spend public money in order to get results.
. Public Works-Chargeable to Capital-public buildings-Ottawa Parliament Buildings restoration. The plans for the said building and the method to be adopted for securing the reconstruction thereof to be subject to the approval of the joint committee appointed by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition	$2,000,00r
Ottawa.-new public building.. ..	900,(KM)


Charles Sheard: I am anxiously awaiting the day when we will be able to occupy a different chamber from this. Those who have to occupy the side benches are suffering a great disadvantage not only because of the difficulty of intelligently following the debates in this chamber, due to the acoustic properties, but also because of the crowded and irregular manner of the seating. It seems to me a lamentable condition of affairs that the Dominion Parliament should be constrained to discharge the greatest public duties that fall to any body under such extreme difficulties. I had hoped that last year would see the last of these conditions. I would like some assurance from the Minister of Public Works that every effort will be made to expedite the work and that the conditions will be represented to those responsible so that we can have some promise that next year we will be relieved from difficulties which, I feel certain, are very trying to a great many, especially the newer, members of the House.


Thomas Foster: I appreciate the difficulties that the minister has been operating under during the past year. I am sure that the situation has been very trying. I understand that there was an inspection of the new buildings made by some officials and members at an earlier period of the session. Most of us are not familiar with the present condition of the building, but I think it would be very interesting to the members if the minister would give to those who have not had an opportunity of making an inspection a statement as to how far the building is advanced, and what the possibility is of being in the new House next session.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I shall be very glad indeed to do so, because if there is one work in connection with the department that I have taken a personal interest in for the last year and a half it is the construction of the Parliament Building. I happen to be chairman of the parliamentary committee because of the position that I occupy. While I do not want to say anything that may be construed as reflecting upon any person, I

do not think I would be doing justice to m self, let alone to the House of Commons, if I did not say that I have been very much disappointed with the progress of the work. There has been nothing in my experience as a minister that has given me greater disappointment, I think, than the manner in which that work has been carried on. I have made myself almost a nuisance to many people in connection with it, but I have done my best anyway. I have told the workmen, and I propose to say here, that I do not think we have received value for the money we have paid out, and the fault is not all with the workmen either. There seems to be a general feeling on the part of pretty nearly every one connected with the institution that it is good, easy, government money, and that it is a great mistake to get through with the job too soon. For that reason I am having a lot of difficulty.
As to the possibilities of the future, I am not as pessimistic perhaps as one might gather from the statement I am making, because I do believe that, barring strikes, the building will be in such shape by the first of January next-and I presume there will not be a session of Parliament before that date,-that it can be occupied for parliamentary purposes.
But I may as well tell the Committee that the building will be in no way nearly completed. I believe the House of Cbmmons Chamber will certainly be ready for occupation, and probably pretty will advanced toward completion. The walls are practically all up; I mean the inside lining of stone is practically up. The ceiling is now being plastered and being got ready for the decorative work, and the galleries are started. Nothing has been done to the floors, but it seems to me that in the course of the next three or four months the House of Commons Chamber ought to be pretty well under way. I see no prospect of the Senate Chamber being ready for occupation unless there is a very great change in the movements of the men who are putting up the building.
Mr. THOMAS FOSTER; That will not affect the Commoners.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think I should say
there are a number of very fine committee rooms in the building. There are very large reading rooms, and there are rooms which could be easily fitted up for the reception of the Senate for one session. The Senators would be much more comfortable than they are at the present time, and they would be

just as favourably situated as they were in the old House. The corridors will be pretty wTell finished, but probably not altogether. The building is different in the matter of entrances from the old structure; there are really three entrances instead of one. Members will recollect that in the old building everybody went in by the centre entrance and turned to the right and to the left. In the new building there will be a central entrance, which has not been started at all as far as finishing up is concerned, and I am sure, will not be completed. On the other hand there will be a lobby for the House of Commons, and one for the Senate. The House of Commons lobby is pretty nearly completed, in fact most of the floors are laid and the stonework in the walls is all completed. Workmen are now engaged upon the decorative work, but that portion of the building is practically completed now. The lobby on the Senate side has not been touched at all, so that it seems to me there is not much hopes of that being finished in time.
But there is another phase of the work which is much more encouraging than that upon which I have been dwelling. The rooms are in a very forward state of completion, and there will be, I think, about twice as much accommodation in the new building as there was in the old. The building is one story higher than the old structure, and it is laid off in a different way altogether. The Senate and House of Commons chambers were in the middle of the building before. Now the chambers are at the extreme ends, so that they have lots of sunlight and fresh air. The space that was occupied by the former Senate and Commons chambers is now taken up by what they call the office blocks, that is, two blocks extending for three floors after you go up the two floors. In other words, two floors are taken up in the elevation of the House of Commons and the Senate chambers and large committee rooms below, and there are three floors in each of these office blocks. I think there are eighty-four very fine rooms which are now practically completed, and when we get delivery of the marble those rooms will be ready for the painters and even for the installation of the furniture in a very short time. In addition to that, there are a tremendous number of rooms-I wrould not like to say the actual number, but it must go into hundreds-all around the building both front and rear. These rooms are now, I would say. three-fourths and perhaps four-

fifths plastered. The floors are laid, and in some cases, quite a number of cases, the plumbing is in a very advanced stage. The heating is also practically complete, so that there will be no question whatever of ample room for the accommodation of members, both of the Senate and House of Commons. With this condition of affairs, with the corridors in such a state that they will be passable, with the House of Commons chamber practically completed, and with plenty of room for the Senate, I see no reason in the world why we should not get into the building for the next session of Parliament.
I think I should state to the Committee, however, that the building is going to cost us a great deal more money than anybody ever imagined it would in the beginning. We have expended already a little over $5,000,000. I estimate that we will expend $2,000,000 during the coming year, and then it will not be anyway nearly complete. I have no accurate estimate with me to-night -I am sorry for that, because I might have had it-but I have not much hesitation in saying that the building will cost $8,000,000 when it is completed.


Mr. COPP:: What was the original estimate of the cost?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: About $5,000,000, possibly a little more. But we must remember that there has been an absolute revolution in the building trade since this structure was started/ Wages are very much in excess of what they were, as hon. gentlemen know; the cost of materials has gone up tremendously; and had we known everything, or had even my predecessors known everything-because the cost of things had gone up pretty well before I came into office- a saving might have been effected; but they did not like to buy too far ahead, there was always the hope that the war would be over and that there would be a reduction in the price of materials. Well, the war, unfortunately, lasted longer than people thought, the price of materials has not gone down, and therefore the building has cost a great deal more than was anticipated, due entirely to conditions over which perhaps no person had control.


John Howard Sinclair: Are you still paying eight per cent to the contractor?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, the contract provides for the payment of eight per cent to the contractors up to $4,000,000, seven per cent for the next million, and nothing above $5,000,000, so that the percentage payable to. the contractors is practically earned. There is also a commission of five and a
half per cent which goes to the architect, and that also stops at $5,000,000.


Mr. CAHILL:: Five and a half per cent on $5,000,000?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Five and a half per cent on an amount not exceeding $5,000,000.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Is that commission to the architects?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.


William Cameron Edwards: What architects?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Well, Mr. Pearson, for one.


William Cameron Edwards: Is he not an employee of the Government under salary?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, he gets a commission. The other architect is Mr. Marchand, of Montreal. I do not know just how the commission is divided, but Mr. Pearson gets by far the major portion of it. Mr. Pearson gets, I think, four-fifths, and Mr. Marchand the other one-fifth.


William Cameron Edwards: I was walking around
the library to-day, and I noticed a little shack behind it marked with a couple of red crosses and the inscription "hospital." I understand that at one time a doctor, or two doctors, were employed.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think that is correct.


William Cameron Edwards: Are there two doctors still employed, or any medical man at all?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, I am happy to say there are no doctors on the job, and there have not been for over a year.


William Cameron Edwards: Have there been any casualties on the works since the doctors left?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have not heard of any.


William Cameron Edwards: That is the reason for dismissing the doctors then, I presume there were casualties before? When you got rid of the doctors there were not any casualties; the men did not fall down and get hurt. Who constitutes the committee that is supervising the construction at the present time?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think I can give their names from memory. From the House of Commons there are, the Minister of Public Works, who is chairman; the Minister of Railways and the Minister of Marine. I think that is all. From the Senate there are, Senators Lougheed, Watson, and Robertson.


William Cameron Edwards: Was that Committee named by the late leader of the Opposition?


Mr. J. D. REID:: Senator Watson was so named.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes; and Dr. Pugsley, Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Murphy in the beginning. Mr. Murphy, I believe, never acted, and Mr. Lemieux resigned from the Committee at the time it was decided to tear down the old building and rebuild entirely. I believe that Sir Wilfrid Laurier refused to recommend appointments to the Committee after the retirement of Messrs. Murphy and Lemieux. After the Union Government was formed Dr. Pugsley retired, and Mr. Hazen also, and other gentlemen were appointed to fill the vacancies. Senator Watson, the Minister of Railways (Mr. J. D. Reid), and Senator Lougheed, I believe, are the only original members of the Committee.	[DOT]


John Howard Sinclair: Who supervised the purchase of materials?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That would be a pretty hard question to answer. For the last year and a half practically everything that could be purchased by public tender has been so purchased. A large part of the work that originally was intended to be carried out by the contractors has been done by a sort of subcontract-for instance, the heating. Members, if they have ever gone over the work, will perhaps realize that the building is to be heated from a central heating plant on the bank of the Ottawa river about a third of a mile from the buildings. The heat is conveyed by steam pipes through a tunnel which is all completed, the steam heats the water, and the hot water is pumped through the building. That work was all done by contract; that is, we called for tenders, a number of people tendered, and the work was given to the lowest tenderer, and he has completed his work.


John Howard Sinclair: Do the contractors get a commission on that?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, 8 per cent; that is up to $5,000,000. The same is true of the plumbing.


William Cameron Edwards: Does that commission cease at 15,000,000?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, the commission ceases when the cost reaches $5,000,000, and as the building has now cost $5,000,000, it really does not make very much difference because they will get no commission in the future. The same is true of the windows,

the doors and the woodwork; we called for tenders. There was a good deal of criticism of our standing by that principle in the case of the woodwork, because that was held to be artistic work which some person should be appointed to design and execute. However, we took the -ground that it was not impossible to draw specifications, and we did draw specifications and called for tenders. We gave one portion of the work to the lowest tenderer. As to the remainder, the next lowest tenderer withdrew his tender and the work went to the next lowest. We have followed that principle wherever possible, and we have found it possible in nearly every instance. I can scarcely recall the purchase of anything since I have been on the committee that has not been by tender; in fact, any exception would be a matter of very, very minor importance. Of course, we are reaching the point -where some of the work cannot be done by tender. We have just completed arrangements with a gentleman to come here and design centres, ceilings, and decorations of that kind. Tenders cannot be called for for that particular work; it has to be done by hiring some person of artistic leanings to carry it out. The same will be true of many other things in the future. But I can assure the Committee that wherever it has been possible we have called for tenders, and invariably the contract has gone to the lowest tenderer, except, I think, one case, the details of which I have forgotten, but there were very good reasons there for departing from our rule.


John Howard Sinclair: Has the architect been paid the full amount of his commission?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am not positive about that. I think there is some little question at issue.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: Does he get 5 per cent on the total cost?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: He gets 5i per cent.


Alexander William Chisholm: Up to $8,000,000?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Up to $5,000,000.


John Howard Sinclair: The reason I ask that question is that the architect is getting a very large sum of money and there are particular points about his work that will not be known until the building is completed,-such, for example, as the acoustics. If he has made a mess of that he should not be paid the full amount of his commission, because that is a matter

of vital importance. It has been discussed frequently in the House, and the attention of the present minister and of the former minister has been drawn to it. If we get a chamber like this, for example, where we cannot hear what is being said, it would be a calamity after spending so much money, and the architect is the man to take responsibility for that. Then there is the ventilation, which was very bad in the old Chamber, and which we all hope will be good in the new one. I was disappointed to see a corridor around the lower part of the building so that the Chamber is not exposed to the fresh air on any side as this Chamber is; the upper part is. But the acoustics is a matter of vital importance, and if the architect has not been paid his full commission, I would suggest that a portion be retained until the building is completed and it is known if he has done his work properly or not.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I appreciate the point made by my hon. friend. Of course, I am not responsible for the contract. I have watched the construction of the new building pretty carefully from the standpoint of the architect. I do not think my hon. friend need have the least fear that it will not be the best that money can build-at least, I have seen no evidence of any attempt to stop the expenditure of money. There is one thing sure from Mr. Pearson's standpoint-and I want to say it to his credit, because it is a great national structure,- that he is determined that it shall be the very best of its kind that can be produced. I have discussed with him a good many times the question of acoustics. He has gone to different places in the States to investigate-in fact, he wants to go to Great Britain, and I rather advise that he should be allowed to go in order to discuss and investigate this very important question, because we all realize that the acoustics of the Chamber is the most important in connection with the whole enterprise, outside of having a substantial building. As to the ventilation, if my hon. friend would just take a forenoon and go through the building he would satisfy himself beyond question that the ventilation has been looked after in a manner that has never been attempted before.


William Cameron Edwards: How do you get through the fence?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think if my hon. friend will present his card he will find no difficulty in getting through-in fact,
they will be only too happy to send some one with him to point out the different features of construotion. Those are the instructions, and I am sure they will be carried out. In fact, I have asked and suggested that members take the trouble to go through the buildings, and I think they ought to do so. If my hon. friend would go into the building and go down into the' basement, he would find miles of galvanized iron pipes, some of them four and five feet in diameter, extending all through the building. They come up into the chamber out of the wall about six feet from the floor, and fresh air is being constantly pumped from pipes outside of the building through the basement up through those pipes and distributed throughout the chamber. Then there are other pipes, such as we have in this building, ventilating pipes that take the old air away. I cannot give my hon. friend any guarantee as to the acoustics, but I can absolutely assure him that there will be no question about the ventilation. That takes place in all portions of the building where it is neceskary to have ventilation. I do not think that takes place in what they would call the ordinary members' rooms, although it does to some extent. All the windows in the members' rooms are casement windows. There is no wood about them whatever; they are made of steel, copper and glass with a small lever by which they are opened and thrown out a little way, and a thumb-screw keeps them at any angle at which the member wants them.


Thomas Foster: Is there a clerk of works in charge of the construction of the building? That is usual in large buildings of this kind. If so, is he paid by the contractor or by the Government?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: In justice to Mr. Pearson, I should have stated-and I intended to when I had the opportunity-that Mr. Pearson himself employs all of his own staff out of the 51 per cent.


Thomas Foster: That is the clerk of works who looks after the construction work?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Mr. Pearson is responsible for the inspection as the work proceeds. Hon. members must not run away	with	the idea that Mr. Pearson gets the whole four-fifths of 51 per cent and gives nothing for it. He has quite a large staff and his expenditures will be very considerable. We may regret the cost of this work, and I have.

perhaps, somewhat disagreed with Mr. Pearson, and sometimes, I think, the work has not been done too well in some portions, but that does not make any difference, it is being done the very best it ds possible to do it under the circumstances. Mr. Pearson has a competent staff and is responsible for seeing that the work is properly carried out.


Frank S. Cahill: * The minister said he was very much dissatisfied with the progress of the work, but he did not tell us just how or why. The question arises as to the commissions to be paid to both the contractor and the architect. If the building up to this time has cost approximately $5,000,000, or the amount that the commission is to be paid on to the architect, what arrangement has been made for the completion of the building? The architect is paying out probably several thousand dollars a month in carrying out his portion of the work. Will he continue until this work is completed to pay that money out of his own pocket, or will an arrangement be made to pay him out of the public treasury? The same thing may be said with regard to the contractor. If his commission ends at a cost of $5,000,000, and the building is estimated to cost $8,000,000 and will go on for another year before it is completed, what provision has been made for supervision by the contractor and the architect?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is no provision
whatever. They receive this commission on $5,000,000. Of course, the money has not all been paid to them; there is a certain drawback still coming to them.


Frank S. Cahill: About how much?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The note I have says
that one-fifth of the commission which is to be paid upon the whole $5,000,000, will be paid upon the completiop of the preliminary sketches. The remaining four-fifths is [DOT]to be paid pro rata from time to time as payments are made to the contractor. I know some money is being held back as regards Mr. Pearson. There is no provision made for that balance, but it must be remembered that these are honourable gentlemen and that they have received up to the present time a fair return for services rendered. I think I can state both as regards Mr. Lyall and Mr. Pearson that they will go on regardless of whether there will be any more commissions or not. I am satisfied that Mr. Pearson is so wrapped up in the work that if it took the rest of his natural life, he would gladly give it to stay there and see that the work was properly executed. Mr. Pearson, I think, looks upon
[Mr. Oarve'U.J
it as his life's work, and regardless of commissions in the future, Mr. Pearson will stay there and see the work through and make it just as great a success as he possibly can. In saying that as regards Mr. Pearson, I do not wish to cast any discredit upon Mr. Lyall, but Mr. Lyall does not look upon this in the same manner as Mr. Pearson does. Mr. Lyall has many other business interests in Canada and he has to look after them. Mr. Lyall has, unfortunately, been ill for the last three months, and has not been able to give this work any personal attention at all, but from a conversation I have had with him only last week, there is no question he will be able to give it his personal attention and his staff will be there, and this work will proceed just as well in the future as it has done in the past. [DOT]


Frank S. Cahill: What is the cause of the delay?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I can put it in very plain language. There is a feeling when men are working for the Government that it is good, easy money and there is no good hurrying themselves too much. It is just that tem-peramentality running through the whole thing. I have told the workmen to their faces what I am saying here, namely, that I do not think they have given us value for our money. Sometimes they disagree with me and sometimes they blame somebody besides themselves, but that is my view of the matter. And the last time I met them, which was one day only last week, I certainly told them in plain language what I thought about the matter and what I hoped would be the case in the future.


Mr. CROWE:: The minister stated that the heating plant was stationed one-third of a mile away from the .building. Any person who understands the conveying of heat from a unit to a building must realize that there is a very large percentage of waste. Why was that heating plant put so. far away from the building?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I cannot give the reason why. I have seen nothing to lead me to believe that it is not one of the most up-to-date heating plants in the world to-day. There is this about it: The pipes go through a concrete subway six feet by seven, and if the subway does not stand it is not because enough steel and concrete were not put into it, because reinforced steel was put in underneath even over bed-rock, so that it is going to stay there. There will be no chance for cold getting in; there will be no condensation, and the subway, fortunately, is

all uphill from the time the steam leaves the plant until it gets into the building.
I am told that the amount of condensation or loss will be extremely small. The pipes, I think, are nine or ten inches in diameter. The east and west blocks, the Langevin block and the Supreme Court buildings are all to be heated from the same central .plant. The engineers have figured out that there will be a very substantial saving in the heating of these buildings from a central plant, as compared with individual plants for the several buildings. But this is an engineering matter, and I have not expert knowledge on the subject. I would gay, however, that the engineers must be right, and personally I look for no trouble whatever.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: How far below the surface is the main conduit to the building?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: On an average it is from three to four feet below the surface of the street to the top of the tunnel; the tunnel is seven feet deep and six feet wdde. These pipes are suspended in the tunnel, and there are manholes at a few places so that repairs can be made, but these "are all air tight. The pipes will be protected by asbestos, and every precaution will be taken that there shall be as little loss as possible in transmission. There is this further advantage: there will be no furnaces, and consequently no soot or dust around the building. This plan, I think, will effect a great economy and be of great advantage from the sanitary standpoint.
, Mr. L. A. LAPOINTE:	Does the minister's estimate of $8,000,000 include the cost of the furniture?


Mr CARVELL:: No, I do not think so. I hope that the committee will realize that when I said $8,000,000, that is only an approximate estimate. My reason for saying that is this:	I know about what is expected to be done during the coming year, and I know that $2,000,000 will not finish the tower; in fact, it will not do much more than lay the foundation for the tower. I think it will take $8,000,000 to finish the building exclusive of furniture. We have not considered the question of furniture yet, and I must confess I am somewhat at a loss to know how to go about it.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Are you going to use mahogany?
!M>r. CARVELL:	I presume there will
be certain rooms that should be finished in mahogany. I do not see how tenders
can be called for for furniture, because you cannot very well draw up specifications. A number of the biggest firms have been discussing the matter and would like to have a chance to tender. I can only say that they will all have the opportunity, but I think even before that time comes, some artistic brain must be set to work to advise the colour schenje and the general arrangement of the furniture and rugs and things of that kind. I confess that it is beyond me. I think I know something about the building, but I am not an expert on the artistic side of it. I can assure the Committee, however, that nothing will be done in the matter until it has been thoroughly considered.


Mr. STEELE:: The statement of the minister to-night is very encouraging, so fai as it holds out a reasonable prospect of the House occupying the new building next session. It will be a great relief to us who have spent several sessions in this building to get into the new building with all its conveniences and comforts. I should like to impress upon the Committee that the architect and the contractors are not the only ones who have a personal interest in the building. Every member of the House has a very direct personal interest in it, and while many of us may not occupy a seat in it for a great number of years, our successors will. The members of the House of Commons and of the Senate who are privileged to occupy seats in this and future Parliaments will be compelled to spend a very large portion of their lives in that building, and I think men who have spent from twelve to fifteen hours a day for five or six months of each year in this building are entitled to the very greatest degree of comfort that it is possible to give them in the new building now being erected. I trust that the inner arrangements for the comfort of the members will not be overlooked in the larger plan of producing a fine building. I have had the privilege of going over the building two or three times, the last time only a few weeks ago, and from what an inexperienced person like myself could see I must say that the building promises a very great degree of comfort indeed for the individual members of the House. That is necessary if we are to give our best to Parliament. The conditions here prevent us giving our best work; they are destructive to the interest that we take in the House, for the simple reason that we are unable to follow its proceedings. I would therefore again



impress upon the Committee the necessity of seeing that the very greatest possible degree of comfort and convenience is provided for the individual members of the House and Senate.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I quite appreciate the necessity of everything my hon. friend has indicated, and I can assure him that everything is being done that can reasonably be done in order to meet the requirements he has mentioned. There will be sufficient rooms m the new building to give every man who wishes it a private office. I do not imagine that every man will wish it, because in some cases two members would prefer to be together, but I think I can safely say that there will be sufficient space to give every man who really wishes it a private office. The offices will be suitably furnished. The floors will be of nailacrete, which is a little softer than concrete. Over that will be a covering of battleship linoleum, and over that a carpet or rug of some kind. Suitable desks, chairs, lounges and things of that kind will be provided. There will be a hot and cold water basin in every room, I believe, and ten elevators in the building. Lavatories will be provided where required. In my judgment one of the greatest comforts and conveniences of the whole building will be the restaurant, which is being built above the Commons Chamber. Not only will it be beautiful in design, but, overlooking the Ottawa river, I think it has one of the prettiest locations I have ever seen in my life. The kitchens will be on a very elaborate scale. Hon. members can rest assured that everything will be done to provide for their comfort and health and for that of the officials of the House and all those who have to live within its precincts.


William Cameron Edwards: Will accommodation be provided in the building, for the Speaker of the Commons and the Speaker of the Senate?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It has been decided that the Speakers of the respective Houses shall not reside in the building.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I appreciate the last remarks of the minister in regard to the arrangement of the new Parliament buildings and am pleased to see that some interest is being taken in the comfort and personal satisfaction of private members. My experience of the old Parliament was very short, but I found when I came there that I occupied a room in the cellar with five or six other members. We had some sort of desks but there was not a bookcase of any kind in which one could keep books or papers, and 	-	'
we did not find it very convenient. We did not expect anything elaborate here, but it would be impos|sible for members to do any kind of decent work in the rooms we are occupying here, there being as many as eight or ten in some rooms, and not fewer than four or five in any. It makes it very inconvenient and practically impossible for members to prepare their work. I am not very fastidious about the furniture that is in the rooms. In my room now I have an old desk that was brought down in pieces from the -fire in the old Parliament building and nailed together. However, I have not made any requisition for furniture. I may, but I do not-know that the Minister of Public Works would grant my request if I did. Speaking seriously, I am very glad to hear the minister tell us that in the new Parliament buildings there will be proper facilities and plenty of room. One or two in a room is all right, but in order to carry on the work of the session and to do any other work which may be necessary, proper facilities are indispensable. We regret that we have had to remain here so long, and trust this will be the last session. It would be gratifying for those who will have the privilege of being in the new building to have adequate convenience and comfort.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Will there be provided a recreation room in the shape of a gymnasium for the use of members? I am quite serious about this.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am serious too, and I will go so far as to say that it has been considered, although I do not think it has been done. I may State what Mr. Pearson has suggested to me, and what I would regard with favour. He proposes that there be a walk all round the library, a place that can be kept in the winter time at a fairly warm temperature, where members can exercise. The suggestion appeals strongly to me.	As to a real gymnasium or anything of that kind, I do not think that has been considered, although if it were thought necessary 11 think space enough could be found in the basement to provide almost anything like that, because there are two floors below the ground floor. There is much more space there than one would ever think unless he went through the building, so that if it were thought advisable to adopt this proposal there could be no difficulty about it.


William Cameron Edwards: I am very glad that the hon. member drew attention to that feature

of the building. There has been a commendable unanimity of opinion amongst members that the new building should conduce to the comfort of the members both of the House of Commons and of the Senate. We spend long hours here, especially the members of the House of Commons. No eight-hour a day schedule applies to members of the House of Commons, and even the shortest day is a long day, and would be considered by any person in any other walk of life as requiring " time and a half " at least if not " double pay " for overtime. We are here twelve, fifteen and sixteen hours a day, week after week a nd month after month, and I say in all seriousness that there should be some provision whereby members who have an hour or an hour and a half at their disposal can take systematic exercise. That is a' common-sense view of the matter. Personally it has always been a case of putting off exercise from day to day, but if there were a gymnasium room-and there would be ample space for a place of that kind-the members could take half an hour and go for an exercise with benefit to their health. Since the minister says that this matter has come up for consideration, I would suggest the advisability of appointing a .Committee of this House-I do not know that it would be necessary to have a Committee of the Senate, although we might have some of the younger members of that body if it were thought fit-to confer with the Committee who have supervision of this work to consider the question of having some recreation room in the new building. Some may regard this as of little consequence, but in my opinion it is a matter of great importance, and I would like the question to be seriously considered.
Mr. -OARVELL: I do not by any means consider it a matter of small consequence. On the contrary, I have been discussing it with the architects for the last year, and while we have not agreed upon what shall be done it has been practically decided that there shall be a promenade indoors, to which members can resort in winter time. I would very heartily welcome the advice and assistance of a committee of the House. I will bring the matter up at the next meeting of the Parliamentary Committee and also take rneans, if the House deems fit, to see that a committee is appointed to discuss the question with the Parliamentary Committee, because it is something that touches the health of every member. I do not suppose there are half a dozen members who
149i
do not realize that they are not getting sufficient exercise. I am not getting the? exercise I should, largely because there is. no opportunity without going off to the Yj M.C.A. I regard the matter as of great importance and will take whatever steps are necessary to see that it is brought up in the way suggested.


Robert James Manion: As a medical man, I
strongly support the suggestion made by the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) and endorsed by the Minister of Public Works, because I think it is very essential that men who are doing mental work, as we are here, should get sufficient exercise. We are all getting on toward middle life-I would not say that anyone of us was getting past that stage,-and we should consider seriously the establishment of a few rooms in the basement for a (gymnasium and place of exercise, where there might also be a few shower baths. This would be all that would be necessary and it would be practically inexpensive. Tt would give a fair amount of exercise to most members, and the members of the Press Gallery could also work off some of their superfluous energy there.


Mr. FIELDING:: Do I understand the, hon. minister to say that practically the whole of the commission to the architects; has been paid out?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It has been all earned and a substantial amount paid out.


William Stevens Fielding: It is of course gratifying to know that we are dealing with honourable gentlemen who will fulfil their; obligations. But even when one is dealing, with honourable gentlemen, regard must be* had to business principles. Do we understand that in the making of these contracts the arrangement is of such a nature that we may pay the architect the entire amount of his compensation while the building is little more than half completed?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have not the contract before me but I am pretty sure that is about the substance of it. Of course, I can do nothing but carry out the contract. There is no actual written contract with the architects, but there is sufficient correspondence in existence to practically make up a contract. There was some little question whether the commission would be allowed on one certain item, and I believe that a formal contract had never been signed. The fact that -the building is going, to cost 12,250.000 or $3,000,000 more than anticipated does not make any difference at all; we take it for granted that the architects

are entitled to their commission on $5,000,000. I am not in a position to say how much has been paid- out, but I know that practically the whole amount has been paid, because the contract calls for it. They get their commission monthly upon the expenditure. That is the contract.


William Stevens Fielding: If that is the contract, of course the minister must fulfil it, but ordinary business principles would seem to indicate that the commission should be paid out pro rata with the progress of the building. Supposing anything should happen to these most excellent gentlemen, of whom I am quite sure I cannot speak too highly, suppose they should be called by death, you would have a building a little more than half completed, the commission paid out and nobody to supervise the work for the remainder of the time.


Georges Parent: Were there two contracts, one with the contractors and one with the architects?	*


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.


Georges Parent: Who are the architects
who appear in the contract?
Mr. 'CARVELL: Mr. Pearson and Mr. Marchand, of Montreal.


Georges Parent: Are they in partnership?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: In a way. Mr. Marchand acts in an advisory capacity and attends meetings of the committee whenever anything of importance is going on. Mr. Pearson acts as resident architect and inspector of the work and has personal charge.


Georges Parent: If a contract has been entered into between these two architects, plans must have been prepared and submitted to the Department of Public Works here. If such was the case, I would like to know whether the plans were prepared by Mr. Pearson or Mr. Marchand and what commission the Government agreed to pay for the preparation of the plans. I understand that there would be a commission paid for the preparation of the plans and also a commission for the supervision of the work.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They were to be paid one-fifth of the commission upon the whole $5,000,000 upon the completion of the preliminary sketches. It always seemed to me that that payment was entirely out of proportion to the amount of work performed.


Georges Parent: That is paid to them jointly?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, it is a joint contract and they have a private arrangement between themselves as to the division. Then the balance of the amount is paid monthly according to the progress estimates. I feel pretty sure that the bulk of that amount has been paid out both to the architects and the contractors.


Georges Parent: Is there provision in the contract by which, if the cost of the work should exceed $5,000,000, the commission shall be reduced?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No; they simply get 8 per cent up to $4,000,000 and 7 per cent on the next million, and nothing on any amount expended beyond that.


Georges Parent: If il should require the minister to place on the Table a copy of the two contracts I hope he will be able to do so and that we will have an opportunity of seeing them.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I shall be delighted to get them.


Edmond Proulx: The minister said that
the architects were paid monthly on progress estimates. Who makes these estimates?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They are made up by our own staff very largely. Mr. Ewart occupies the position of consulting architect for the department and all of this work is under his special care and attention. He has a staff with him. The deputy minister has to pass on everything, and he is in a sense a member of this parliamentary committee. All the progress estimates are supervised, revised and scrutinized in every way possible by the department before the estimates are paid. The architect makes the plans, and directs the contractor what he shall do and how he shall do it. We have men who are looking after the timekeeping and these reports are handed in to the Public Works Department. The department, under the supervision of Mr. Ewart, goes over these matters fortnightly and makes up the pay list. Outside of the pay list practically everything for the last year and a half has been a matter of contract. There is a pretty extensive pay list. We have something over 600 men employed directly under the contract of Mr. Lyall, and I do not know how many men there are who are carrying out these various subcontracts to which I referred a short time ago.


Frank S. Cahill: Has the minister in mind any plan whereby he might hasten this

work? Could the department take over the work themselves, get better results and get the work done more quickly? I do not know what the rate of pay to the men is, but as a general thing when men are getting satisfactory pay they work pretty well provided it is not made to look like a life job to them. We have this undertaking costing $5,000,000, which is practically a dead investment until the work is completed. If you could hasten the completion of the building you would save $250,000 or more a year on the investment. You might bonus the employees to get the work done quicker, and if you did so it would be a great convenience to the members and a benefit to the people generally.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am afraid my hon. friend is a little late in his plea for the employees, because they have signed an agreement that will fix their wages until next year. If he had made his plea eight or nine days ago he might have got some political benefit, but that time has gone by now. These employees are getting pretty well paid and they have come to an agreement with the employers in Ottawa. I had nothing to do with it at all. The contractors employing help got together with the workmen, our workmen included, and came to an agreement that was satisfactory to the men and which was signed by them. This contract runs until the first of May, 1920. I do not think there is much use in talking about a bonus to the men. As to the contractors, I do not think anybody will seriously consider that I should pay them a bonus, because I think the sense of this committee is that they are fairly well paid as it is. We possibly might have taken the work out of the contractors' hands but I do not know that any good would have been accomplished by it, I think it would have been a great mistake to have taken it out of the Lyalls' hands.


Arthur Bliss Copp: They might be quite willing to be relieved of it now.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They might be quite willing to be relieved now. I do not feel like relieving them of it. When I came in I was bound by the contract. I do not feel like violating contracts unless there are strong reasons for doing so. But I can say frankly that I have not been satisfied with the progress of the work. I repeat it here. I am doing all I can anyway, but I shall endeavour to see that the work goes a little faster in the future than in the past.


Frank S. Cahill: I am not trying to make any political capital with regard to labour,
I represent a farming constituency, and I ain not at all worrying about that phase of the matter. But I have had some experience in the building business, and I made it a practice to give my men a bonus if they completed the work before a certain date. I always had good results with that system, and got the work completed much faster than other fellows around who were trying to keep wages down and would not resort to the bonus system. In this case the contrac-tors^are practically through as far as regards getting a bonus. Now, they may be honourable men, but as the minister pointed out, they are not spending very much time here,, because they have other work to look after, and if the Government could save money and get into the building sooner I do not believe there would be any great difficulty in cancelling the contract.	.


William Cameron Edwards: Does the hon. gentleman believe in that policy in regard to all Government buildings?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I now wish to take up an item in the Supplementary Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1919.
Ottawa Parliament Building-Restoration, $773,000.
Air. 'CARVELL: I think last year a million and a half was voted, but it did not take care of the work. The money was advanced, I think, out of the war funds temporarily, and we are now asking Parliament to vote this Supplementary Estimate to provide for the work that was not covered in the Estimates as passed by Parliament last year.


William Stevens Fielding: That is for the past year?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes. It is included in the estimate I have given of $5,000,000, as being the cost of the work up to the present time.'
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. J. D. Reid, the House adjourned at 11.13 p.m.
Tuesday, May 13, 1919.