1919-05-23

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. W. EDWARDS (Frontenac):: Mr. Speaker, during my temporary absence from the Chamber last evening the member for Kingston (Mr. Nickle) stated as a fact something which was not a fact, which seriously reflects on me, and which I desire to correct. During the course of the few remarks I made last night I stated that I would not have taken any of the time of the House had it not been for the fact that I was absent last year when this question came up for discussion and that I was not here this session when the debate took place. In his speech the member for Kingston said-I shall quote, of course, only those remarks which refer to myself:
The member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) trembled with indignation when he approached the matter from the (same point of view.
I pass from the matter of trembling "with indignation;" that is not worth paying attention to. He said further:
"Oh, consistency, thou art a jewel." Because I remembered that in 1918, on May 21st, the right hon. leader of the Government moved hie amendment to my then resolution and the very gentlemen, who shook with indignation this afternoon and1 evening, voted for exactly the same language that the Prime Minister put in his motion a)s the language that I .put in the resolution which I submitted this afternoon.
The hon. gentleman, (to make assurance doubly sure, referred to the page of Hansard on which the division is reported. He said:
The division took place on that resolution, and is recorded at page 2448 of Hansard, and among the names recorded in favour of that resolution I see the names of Edwards, Oockshutt, and Sheard.
Mr. Speaker, I desire to say that I was not in Ottawa on May 21, 1918; that my vote is not recorded in any division that

occurred in the House on that date, and that my name is not in the division list to which the hon. member refers. I may add that at the foot of the list is this statement with regard to pairs:
The Chief Whips announce that there are no pairs on the foregoing division.
So that the statement made by the member for Kingston with regard to my voting on this subject is absolutely incorrect. I regret that under the rules concerning privilege I am not permitted to go further and say what I would like to say.



THE WINNIPEG STRIKE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. McKENZIE:: Has the Acting Prime Minister any news from Winnipeg?


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: The Minister of Labour and the Minister of the Interior arrived at Winnipeg the night before last, and yesterday were in conference with the authorities and the several parties concerned. I have no report from them to-day with respect to which I could make an announcement to the House. I understand that the situation is as it was so far as order is concerned; and we have gathered that there is reason to be hopeful of an early settlement.


Mr. CAHILL:: There was an item in yesterday morning's Citizen concerning the Winnipeg strike, dated at Fort William, May 21, which said:
Last night it was announced that General Ketchen has decided that when the moment had come for a show-down, he would send out the street cars through the city under armed guards with instructions that any attempt at interference was to be met with rifle and machine-gun fire.
Has the Government any knowledge of such instructions being issued to General Ketchen? Is this cold-blooded murder being planned


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Frank S. Cahill: with the knowledge of
the Government?


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order.
Major-General MEWBURN (Minister of Militia): I can say quite sincerely that no such instructions have been issued to General Ketchen, and that no such information has been given out by him. General Ketchen is in command of the Winnipeg Military District, of which Fort William forms a part. His instructions are very minute and very definite; I have been in
daily communication with him. I am glad
to say that the militia units in Winnipegthe 90th Regiment, the 79th Regiment, the 100th Grenadiers, the 106th Regiment, the Fort Garry Horse, and the 13th Battery are completely filled up with volunteers, with plenty of reserves available in case of trouble. In addition to that, the Royal Northwest Mounted Police are on duty in Winnipeg. The troops in Winnipeg have not been called out, but they are available, and if they are used in case of riot they will act entirely in conformity with the Militia Act, in aid of the civil power. General Ketchen is on the job and ready for any emergency. Specific instructions have been given to him, and he is perfectly well aware that troops will not be, as they never have been, used as strike-breakers.



IMPERIAL GUARDS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. Mr. LEMIEUX:: I have noticed that in the press a rumour is gaining ground of late that a new military force is to be created under the name of the Imperial Guards, in which units from the various Dominions will be included. Is the Canadian Government in accord with that policy? Is the Department of Militia taking part in the movement?
Major-General MEWBURN: The Government have no official knowledge of the jnatr ter referred to; all I am aware of is what I have seen in the press. A Commission has been sitting in the War Office regarding the post bellum reorganization of the British army, to which I referred when the Main Estimates were under consideration. There has been a suggestion, though it has never come to us officially, that in the reorganization of the Imperial army a Guards division might be formed, to include battalions representing some of the overseas dominions. If such a military force were organized the men would be voluntarily enlisted in the Imperial service. I have asked for some information regarding the article I saw in the public press.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If there is to be any such organization I suppose the Canadian Parliament will hear of it, and it will be the subject of legislation?
Major-General MEWBURN: The moment I have any information I shall be very glad to give it to the House.



MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Major-General Mewburn (Minister of Militia), Bill No. 118, to amend
[Stage Direction]


the Militia Pension Act, was read the second time, and the House went into Committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-"rank" made to include temporary brigadiers and honorary rank in case of non-combatant.
Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister give a general outline of the purport of the Bill?
Major-General MEWBURN: I referred to this matter on the resolution the other night. This Bill is really in conformity with the Royal Northwest Mounted Police Pension Act. We found it necessary to make one or two amendfnents to the Militia Pension Act in order to take care of conditions that have arisen on account of the war. Under the present Militia Pension Act, officers and non-commissioned officers could1 be pensioned compulsorily only after twenty years service. During the war we have obtained through promotion from the ranks from 117 to 120 commissioned officers, and in the reorganization of the permanent force, there are more officers than there is room for in the establishment. A large number of officers hawe served over twenty years and some over thirty-five years, and the object is to permit the pensioning of officers and non-commissioned officers after ten years' service. This also brings the rank and file into conformity with the officers, permitting the rank and file to retire voluntarily, hut officers can only be retired compulsorily. That is, an officer cannot retire voluntarily if his services are required. This is to enable us to pension a number of senior officers so as to make room for a number of men who have obtained their commissions overseas.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 4-period of service during war to be counted for pension purposes.
Sir SAM HUGHES:: Why not have this clause read so that every year served in the war shall count the same as two years in time of peace?
Major-General MEWBURN: I would certainly have no objection to that. As I explained the other night, the present Pension Act provides only for officers seconded in the public service of Canada, and it was doubtful whether officers of the permanent force who had been given leave of absence in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, as that force was simply a temporary extension of the active militia, could come under this. In the former Act provision was made for men who had served in the South African War, or the Yukon, that
[.Major-General Mew burn. ]
the time they had served there would count for pension. This is simply to say tjaat men who have served in this war shall receive the benefits of the Pension Act. It has been suggested that men who have served in the present war should be allowed to count double time for their service. It is for the Committee to say whether the service given by these men in the present war should count double time for pension or not. If that were done, it would mean that section 4, which refers to the officers, and section 7, which refers to non-commissioned officers and men, would have to be amended by inserting the word "double" in each section.


Mr. REDMAN:: I think the point just discussed by the minister is very well taken. It may be doubtful whether recruits will be immediately obtained for the permanent force in the numbers required unless some inducement is provided, and the very best class of recruits that can be secured for that force will be those who have had some years of active service overseas. With that in view, as well as the idea of doing justice to those particular members of the permanent force who have done service overseas, I move to insert the word "double" before the words "the time" in the first line of paragraph (f) of clause 4 and also in the first line in paragraph (f) of clause 7.


The CHAIRMAN:: The amendment in regard to clause 7 will have to stand until we reach that clause.


Mr. FIELDING:: I would suggest that if the substance of the hon. gentleman's amendment is approved, the drafting be committed to the law officers of the Crown, because I do not think the form in which he has put it will effectively serve his purpose. There is, in connection with that, this thought: Have we not already passed legislation of this character in regard to the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, and I also think some other branches of the Military Service? We had before us one or two Bills of this character. I am merely suggesting that what is done in the one case, it is probably desired to do in the others.


Mr. ROWELL:: The Bill which has
already passed relating to the Royal Northwest Mounted Police provided that time served overseas should count as time in computing the pension.


Mr. COOPER:: Do I understand that this clause will refer only to active service in this war and not to future wars of the Empire, and also that it applies only to

doubling the time officers, non-commissioned officers and men actually served in the field?
Major-General MEWBURN: The section referred to in the original Act stated the period of time for the purposes of the Act, and then it went on to describe what the service was, including the South African war, the South African Constabulary, the time served in taking over the fortifications in Halifax and the Yukon Field Force.


John Wesley Edwards: What is the object and what was the effect of this? Is the idea to increase service so as to enable these men of the permanent force to be sooner retired?
Major-General MEWBURN: The object of the general amendment is, as I have already explained, that under the present Pension Act officers, non-commissioned officers and men could retire only after twenty years' service. Owing to the war, from 117 to 120 non-commissioned officers and men have been given commissions in the field, xnd in the re-organization of the force, it is an utter impossibility to take care of all these officers. The result was that we considered it advisable, in the interest of the country and the public at large, that we should be enabled to retire some of the officers after ten years' service.
They are all paying into the pension fund and can receive pension only on the ratio of the number of years of service. This will enable us to carry that proposal into effect; otherwise those non-commissioned officers and men who got commissions on the field on returning would have to revert to the non-commissioned rank, which would be unfair. The question is whether a man who has served in the war for two years or four years as the case may be, should count double time, and if a man who had never been in the permanent force but has now joined it should have the benefit of the time he had served in the war in the computation of his pension. It is now suggested by the amendment that service in the war should count double time.


Mr. CROTHERS:: What are the officers, who are now part of the permanent force, entitled to by way of pension under the Pensions Act? I understand that these are officers that are employed in the city of Ottawa.
Major-General MEWBURN: No.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It does not include
them?
175J
Major-General MEWBURN:	I do not
think there are more than five. They get one-fiftieth for the actual number of years served. All these officers pay into the pension fund 5 per cent of their pay and are now entitled, under the present terms of the Act, to l-50th per annum for each year's service, but can only be retired after twenty years. The point is, shall those who retire after ten or twelve years' service do so on the ratio of the number of years they have served?


Samuel Hughes: The statement was made some time ago that this concerned only the permanent force. As I understand it, time will be doubled for the man who is not of the permanent force as well as the man of the permanent force.
Major-General MEWBURN: If he joins the permanent force.


Mr. NICKLE:: I think the Committee
should approach this matter with considerable deliberation and not be stampeded.


Mr. CARVELL:: Hear, hear.


William Folger Nickle: I may be wrong, but if I understand the principle of the Pension Act, 5 per cent is supposed to be paid in by the officer towards a certain fund and when he has served in the permanent force for twenty years he is entitled to 20-50ths of the pay he was receiving on his retirement. If he continues for twenty-five years and is promoted he gets 25-50ths of the amount, and so on, up to but not exceeding 35-50ths of the salary to which he was entitled at the time he should be retired. Let us see for a moment what the amendment of the hon. member for Calgary signifies. In the first place, I submit that it is out of order, because I have a distinct recollection of a similar motion having been ruled out of order when moved to a Bill as it would increase the public expenditure. If I remember correctly, there is a provision in the British North America Act or in the Rules that all Bills for the expenditure of public money must emanate from the Government and that it is not competent for any private member to move an amendment to such a Bill, if the result of the amendment will be an increase and not a decrease of expenditure. Certainly the effect of the amendment moved by the hon. member for Calgary would be to increase the expenditure. If double time is to be given to each man for the time he served in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, the pensions would be increased. That would in-

volve an increased expenditure and therefore the motion is out of order.
But let us look more carefully at the matter. I think that under Order in Council No. 1595-it may be No. 1596, I am not just sure of the exact number-all members of the permanent force -were to be incorporated, so to speak, in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, with the result that every member of the Canadian Permanent Force affected by that Order in Council became, ipso facto, a member of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. The net result of the amendment of the hon. member for Calgary will be that every single member of the permanent force. Whether he went overseas or not, will .count double the number of years he actually was in the force overseas in the computation of his pension. Let us view it from another standpoint. I, on another occasion, already drew attention to the fact that a great many, men in the permanent force had received rapid promotion during the war and that this country did not begrudge them such promotion nor the remuneration they were receiving. But since the war began there has not only been rapid promotion but, unless my memory fails me, there has been a very radical increase in the remuneration paid members of the permanent force. The principle on which these pensions were to be paid was based on the argument that 5 per cent should be taken from the man's pay from year to year and that at the expiration of 20 years he should receive 20-50th of the amount of his salary at that time. Add to that the second principle that you are gotog to add one, two, three or four years, as the case may be, and then double it for every man who was a member of the permanent force; and then add further that	you	are going to	determine
this matter not on the salaries that were paid at the time war broke out ibut on the remuneration now paid and on the further consideration that promotions, will be taken into account in giving these pensions, and the result will be a vast outlay of money. I do not think there is any member who objects to the principle of the Bill as enunciated by the minister, that is, that unnecessary officers should be given a pension and allowed to retire after having been in the service ten years. But I do not believe that the country will view with favour a large pension list being created on the principles and in accordance with the arguments I have just advanced. We want to be fair and generous, but there is such a thing as acting reasonably, and I do not
[Mr. Nickle.l
think the Government would be acting reasonably in adopting the suggestions of the hon. member for Calgary.
Major - General MEWBURN: The hon. member for Kingston is perfectly right. The question of double time did come up when this Bill was drafted. I did not personally think it wise to include that at the time, but certainly I do not want to oppose it, because I think these men are entitled to consideration. These men cannot retire voluntarily; their retirement is compulsory. The services of many of them are required and they may have to remain in the force for twenty years. But the question is whether the time served during the war should count as double time. I did not deem it wise to include it in the Bill. The amendment is not mine, but if the committee feel that double time should count I do not wish to oppose it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I feel, notwithstanding the fact that my colleague expresses an agreement with this, that I should say something about it. I am heartily in accord with the attitude taken by the hon. member for Kingston. I have no hesitation in saying that this matter was discussed a great many times and the Bill was brought down after mature consideration 'by the Government. If there is a class of men in the Canadian army who are not entitled to such special privilege as this I think they are the men of the permanent force. They voluntarily joined the Canadian army and became professional soldiers. They were paid for their service and were maintained for years doing nothing, this, of course, being through no fault of their own. When the war broke out they were the first men in Canada who logically should go to the war. They did go, but in doing so they were only performing their duty. They did not do more than, and, indeed, not half as much as, hundreds of thousands who volunteered and went to the war. Now the war is over and they are coming back. This proposal means that you are going to give to the men who belonged to the permanent force the right to retire, and you will add to their period of service double the time which they served at the front. If a man was transferred to the Canadian Expeditionary Force and stayed in Ottawa, as many did who never got out of the city-


An hon. MEMBER:: Active service?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Many men in Ottawa never got out of the city. They belonged

to the Canadian Expeditionary Force and their wives had the separation allowance. I know what I am talking about. You are simply handing to these men double pay in the form of pensions. The principle is not only wrong but it is vicious and I hope this Committee will not back it up.


William Stevens Fielding: In order that we may prevent any further disagreement among our friends of the Cabinet, I would ask your ruling, Mr. Chairman, on the point raised by the hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Nickle), that this involves an increase of the public expenditure and can only originate on a motion from the Crown.


Georges Henri Boivin: There is no doubt that the point of order raised by the hon. member for Kingston is well taken and that the amendment is not in order.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Samuel Hughes: Reference has beeh made by the Minister of Public Works to the fact that a number of officers and men remained in Ottawa. A great many officers remained in Ottawa very much against their own will, but they rendered just as good service in Ottawa as any man who stood in the trenches at the front. Take Colonel Emmett Clark, Colonel Charlie Winter, Colonel Deroche, Brigadier General Helmer, Brigadier General Jos. Langton, Colonel Burritt, and the deputy minister himself, General Fiset. I could name a score of officers here who begged and pleaded to go to the front, but who could not be spared and were not allowed to go. They did necessary, faithful and efficient work here and they are entitled to just as much consideration as the boys who went and did their duty so fearlessly in the trenches.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Are they entitled to greater consideration than the men who went to the front?


Samuel Hughes: Officers, non-commissioned officers and men who remained here and did good service are more entitled to consideration than those officers who did not go to the front but remained in England holding down soft jobs.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6-service for pension reduced from fifteen to ten years and to be based on allowance as well as pay:
William Folger Nickle: What does that mean?
Major-General MEWBURN: This makes the pension of the men calculable by reference to the allowance as well as the pay.
That has always been the case with officers. This is to make the calculation with reference to the men the same as it is with reference to the officers.


William Folger Nickle: What is involved in the term "allowances"?
Major-General MEWBURN: Officers and non-commissioned officers get a field allowance; a married man gets a lodging and fuel allowance if these are not found for-him.


William Folger Nickle: Does it include separation allowance?
Major-General MEWBURN: No, that goes to the wife.


Richard Clive Cooper: Have pensions been paid on lodging, fuel and light allowance?
Major-General MEWBURN: Theire is, in the Permanent Force, a lodging and fuel allowance for married men. The difficulty we are under to-day in reference to the Permanent Force is that we have not sufficient barrack accommodation for them.


Mr. NESBITT:: Are these allowances over and above the pension proposed in the former clauses; or is this the total, including housing, fuel, light and all that sort of thing?
Major-General MEWBURN: Officers have always got their pensions on pay and allowances and it Ss proposed to make the man the same as the officer in that respect.


William Folger Nickle: I have still not got the information I want. How much does this allowance amount to? In the case of a private, what would this allowance come to per month?
Major-General MEWBURN: About $1.80 per diem including subsistence allowance.


William Folger Nickle: Do I understand that a man who has served twenty-five years is going to have added to his pension ninety cents per day?
Major-General MEWBURN: No, he gets a proportionate fiftieth for every year of his service.


William Folger Nickle: fauppose he has been in the service for twenty-five years?
Major-General MEWBURN: A non-commissioned officer on his pay and allowances would get a pension, based on twenty-five years' service of about $739.


William Folger Nickle: For life?	-

Major-General MEWBURN: For life-after twenty-five years' service.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I would like to suggest to the minister that when bringing in Bills of this kind, instead of substituting "ten" for "fifteen" and making changes of that kind in the old Act, if he ,would print the sections as they will read with these changes made and show what the provisions of the old Act are we could discuss these things much more intelligently.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On section 7-period of service during war to be counted for pension purposes:
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Could the minister give us any fair idea of what amount is involved in putting this Bill into operation and how much it will increase the yearly outlay?
Major-General 'MEWBURN: It will be impossible to give the actual amount involved, but I think there will be a tremendous saving to the country because we will not have to give them their full pay for twenty years, after which time they would get the benefit of the pension system anyway. This makes provision whereby these men can be pensioned after ten years' service. They will only get ten-fiftieths of their pay and allowance, whereas if they had served twenty years they would get twenty-fiftieths. It will be a net saving to the country irather than an increase.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That is taking for
granted that we are obliged to keep these officers on at full pay?
Major-General MEW'BURN: Yes. In the British army they have a different arrangement. Some of these officers, come back from the front and they cannot find employment. Until they have employment they are given half pay. We have no such arrangement in Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 8-pension to widows, compassionate allowance to children:
Mr. POWER:: Is there anything in the
law in reference to pensions for the widows of non-commissioned officers and men under similar circumstances?
Major-General MEWBURN:	This provision conforms identically with that of the Northwest Mounted Police Pension Act.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 9-widow's pension increased to one-half of what husband's pension was or might have been at death:
William Folger Nickle: What was it before? Major-General MEWBURN: The pensions
of widows were as follows:
Widow of a Colonel	 $500
"	"	Lieut.-Colonel	
450"	"	Major	
350"	"	Captain	
250"	"	Lieutenant or	2nd Lieutenant 	
200"	"	Warrant Officer	
100


William Folger Nickle: Under the new scheme what will it be?
M'ajor-General MEWBURN: This gives them one-half of the actual pension the officer was drawing at the time of his death.


William Folger Nickle: What would the figure be for a colonel.?
Major-General MEWBURN: After thirty-five years' service, the maximum pension for his widow would be about $1,400.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I think this is a very Humane provision. In one case that I know of the widow of a general was receiving as pension the small pittance of $500 a year until her son, her only support, was killed in action on the battlefield. On account of the death of her son, who was a lieutenant, she was entitled to a further pension of $800, but instead of her pension having been increased by reason of the death of her son it has been reduced. I think Canada is in honour bound to do the right thing for the general's widow who has lost her son, her sole support.


John Wesley Edwards: Suppose it could be
shown that this widow was in receipt of an income from other sources to an amount greater than the military pension; say the military pension is $1,400, and the income from other sources $1,450 or $1,500; would this income in any way affect her pension? The reason I ask is this: A case came under my notice where a bank clerk in Ottawa, who was the main, if not the sole, support of his mother, enlisted, and was killed overseas. His mother had two other sons and three daughters, I believe, but they were all married and living in different places, and did not contribute to the mother's support. While her son was overseas she ret ceived the usual separation allowance, and on his death she received a pension. I think it amounted to $40 a month, and she undertook to supplement that by keeping a boarding house. Later it was ascertained that her income from the boarding house exceeded the amount of the pension, and the pension was discontinued. The reason given was that her income from the boarding house exceeded the amount of the pension.

Major-General MEW BURN: The Pension Act provides:-
Such pension or compassionate allowance shall not he granted if the applicant ds in the opinion of the minister unworthy, or if the applicant is already in the opinion of the minister wealthy.
My hon. friend has cited the case of a disability pension. I do not know just what the new Bill provides in such a case.


William Folger Nickle: "Wealthy" is a very elastic word. May I ask if section 25 as drafted will give the widow of an officer the right to a pension and the right also to a disability pension under the Pensions Act?
Major-General MEWBURN: No.


William Folger Nickle: Why not?
Major-General MEWBURN:	It was a
case of that sort that my hon. friend from Maisonneuve cited just now. In that case, after the husband had served thirty-five years in the permanent corps, the widow was granted only the small pittance of $500. This unfortunate lady had no other means, and because she was drawing this pension she was not entitled to a further amount when her son was killed.


William Folger Nickle: 
Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR:: I fear that the
practice of searching for other sources of income may sometimes be carried too far.
A case was drawn to my attention recently of an old gentleman living in a poor settlement in the province of Nova Scotia who lost his two sons in the war. He himself was almost blind, and was utterly unable to carry on the work of his farm. His wife was living on the farm, but he had no other help whatever. He was getting a pension of $480, and an agent of the departmeent was sent to investigate into his other sources of income. This agent reported that he found this poor man on his farm with a horse, two cows, twelve hens, and twelve apple trees, and he estimated the revenue from these sources to be half the amount of the pension. He recommended that the department therefore cut the pension in two, giving the man $240 instead of $480. This recommendation was carried out by the department. It strikes me that that is going altogether too far. Any one who knows anything about a farm knows that unless the man was able to work the farm he would get very little profit indeed from twelve hens, twelve apple trees, two cows and a horse. I just want to mention these to the minister so .that in administering the pension fund the rules be not allowed to bear too strictly on poor people, because it strikes me that at the present time they are a little too stringent.
Major-General MEWBURN: 1 think the hon. gentleman is confusing this particular Bill with the Pension Bill on which a Special Committee of the House is sitting at the present time. Those are matters that will be covered by pensions for disability or death. What we are now considering is the old Pension Act dealing with the permanent service.


William Folger Nickle: Have I the assurance of the minister that there is not to be this duality of pensions?

Major-General MEWBURN: I certainly agree with the hon. member. I think the Disability Pensions Act should provide for that. If an officer of the permanent corps was killed in action, his widow would probably get the disability pension; she certainly should not get both.


Mr. MANION:: I have a case which I should like to bring to the notice of the minister, somewhat similar to the case mentioned by the hon. member for Anti-gonish.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Why not leave it until the other Bill comes before the House?


Robert James Manion: Is it out of order?


Georges Henri Boivin: It would be out of order to discuss pensions not covered by this Bill,


Robert James Manion: I have taken this case up for six months, and have not been able to get justice for this man^John Taylor by name-and I thought perhaps it would be a good time to have the Government stir up the Pension Commissioners to act a little more rapidly. I will discuss the case when the report of the board comes up, but that will mean a delay of two months in securing justice for this man.


Georges Henri Boivin: The hon. member should not say that the rules of the House preclude him from discussing the matter and securing justice. He can bring it up and discuss it on any Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday, when the House is moved into Committee of Supply. He would be in order in doing that, but he is not in order on the consideration of this Bill in Committee. *


William Folger Nickle: I would suggest that the section might be amended in this way:
Provided, however, that where a widow is entitled to a pension as the widow of a member of the Canadian Expeditionary Force and under this Act, she shall elect which pension she will accept.
Major-General MEWBURN: ll have no objection to that. She must elect between the two. That is, if her husband in the permanent force was killed at the front she must elect which pension she will take, whether the disability pension or the pension under this Bill.


William Folger Nickle: I am very glad that the minister appreciates the point. The Order in Council I referred to is No. 1569, and as the minister will remember, by that Order in Council:-
Ail officers and men from time to time in Pay in Canada during the present war or during demobilization thereafter who belong

to the permanent active militia or who are attached to the headquarters staff or to the staff of a military district, shall be officers and men of the Canadian Expeditionary Force and shall be continuously subject to military law. They shall, while their services continue to be required in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, hold therein temporarily as from the date of last appointment or promotion the ranks which they now have or may from time to time be granted therein, and except as hereinafter provided, the regulations for the pay, allowances and pensions for the Canadian Expeditionary Force shall be applicable and shall govern any claims for pension not heretofore disposed of.
Major-General MEWBURN: If an officer were killed at the front his. widow would get a disability pension under the C.E.F. rates.


William Folger Nickle: If during service a member of the permanent militia, who was made a member of the C.E.F., remained in Canada and died of influenza, his widow \vou)d be entitled also to the C.E.F. pension, and the question of election might come up.
Major-General MEWBURN: Do you think it wise to provide for that?


William Folger Nickle: I think it should be provided for.


Georges Henri Boivin: Will the hon. member repeat his amendment?


William Folger Nickle: It is:-
Provided, however, that where a widow is entitled to a pension as the widow of a member of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and under this Act, she shall eleot which pension she will accept.


Richard Clive Cooper: The hon. member for Kingston cites a Canadian officer as having a choice between two pensions. What would happen in the case of a Canadian officer in- the British service, and the British service paying better rates of pension than we do here? Would he have the choice of taking the British pension?
Major-General MEWBURN: We have many officers of the Canadian Expeditionary Force who have been loaned to the Imperial Forces but are still under Canadian rates of pay. If a Canadian officer was a member of the Imperial Forces he would only get the pension provided by the Imperial Government, he would have nothing to do with our pension.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 10-Widow's pensions may be revised but not payments made before this Act:
An hon. MEMBER:: What is the effect of that?
Major-General MEWBURN: That is just the case we have been speaking of.
Mr. HERBERT J. MACKIE: If I am in order, I would like to refer to a grave injustice that a number of permanent officers feel have been done to their brother officer;
I refer to the case of Colonel G. Hunter Ogilvie, of Kingston. Colonel 4 p.m. Ogilvie, like all other permanent officers, was very desirous of completing his thirty-five years' service. It has been the practice in most other departments that Ithe last six months of a man's service is given on leave, but for some reason Colonel Ogilvie was chopped off the last three months that would entitle him to his thirty-five years' service. He served thirty-four years and three months, and_ was then granted six months' leave of absence, making his service thirty-four years and nine months, thereby missing three months of completing his thirty-five years' service. I submit that if Colonel Ogilvie was worthy of being retained in the service for thirty-four years and three months, he should have been retained for thirty-four years and six months. Colonel Ogilvie towards the end of his term was not as effective an officer as the department would like to have -had, and they replaced him by a younger and more active man. But even so, I -contend it would have been only just to Colonel Ogilvie, and to other officers similarly situated, that he should have been retained the extra three -months, which would have enabled him to retire with thirty-five years' service to his credit.


William Stevens Fielding: There is a thought that may find expression in connection with this Bill. It is not a new matter, it is one that -has existed for quite a long time. We are not only providing for war pensions, as to which there is no question, but we are providing for peace pensions to two branches of our public service: the Perman-Force and the Northwest Mounted Police. I need not say that I am not objecting to that at all. But we are doing nothing for the great body of the -Civil Servants of Canada.
I want to keep in -the public mind and in the mind of hon. members that what we are doing for the permanent force, for the militia force and for -the Royal Northwest Mounted Police is creating a distinction. Something was said in a recent debate about class distinctions; we are having class distinctions here. We are providing
that a man who serves in the Royal Northwest Mounted Police or in the permanent force in ordinary times of peace is eligible for a pension; but the man who has the misfortune to serve in any of the other branches of the public service, which comprise probably ninety per cent of the whole, will have no pension.
Bill reported.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establish-nient salaries, including Deputy Minister at 56,000, Assistant Deputy Minister and Secretary at $4,0*00, Solicitor at $4,000, Superintendent of Expenditure art. $3,500, Assistant Secretary at $2,52-5 and Accountant at $2,500, $71,2*00 ; contingencies $25,000.
["I am informed that the fees in these divorce cases are remitted. Of course in doing this we are facilitating the granting of divorces by the Parliament of Canada. I do not sit in the Committee when these cases come up because I do not recognize divorce, but as a public man and as a Canadian, I am appalled at the number of divorces Parliament is granting. There are more divorces during this session than since 'Confederation and that is a period of half a century. I had always thought that Canada was a British country, but we are being fast Americanized: In the United States there is one divorce for every twelve marriages. Ottawa is becoming the Reno of Canada as a result of the granting of innumerable divorces. I take the number of divorce Bills that we have passed this evening. Ten have received their third reading and five or six their second reading. Going on at this rate, it is evident that we are passing through a social revolution. The institution of the family on which sqciety rests is passing through a crucial test indeed. I would certainly object to the remission of the fees in these cases."]
Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister give an outline of the work of this department?
Hon. NEWTON W. ROWELL: The work of the department, broadly speaking, is divided into three branches: the medical treatment of returned men who are go injured or physically unfit that there is no hope of their early permanent recovery; the re-training of injured or disabled returned men to fit them for useful occupations, and the re-establishment in -civil life of those who return from overseas and are desirous of securing employment or occupation here. The department also provides for the free medical treatment for a year , after their discharge of all who have served overseas and are -suffering from any kind of disability. It -has established an artificial limb factory where artificial limbs are provided for those who have lo-st limbs in the war; and these are kept in a proper condition of repair.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How many hospitals are there under this department and where are they located?


Georges Henri Boivin: I do not think that question is in order. Under item 331 this same discussion may he revived this evening by other members who are not present now. It is absolutely unfair that the discussion should be repeated.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I beg to take exception. Mr. Chairman, to your statement that it is unfair. It may be out of order; and if you say so, I will resume my seat. But to say that it ip unfair that I should seek information is jjSfher hard on an old member like me. I unScrstan-d that the hospitals which were formerly under the Militia Depart-

ment are now administered by this new department?


Newton Wesley Rowell: All hospitals except those for soldiers whose recovery is hoped for at an early date. Soldiers whose early recovery is hoped for are not discharged from the army; their treatment is con-tinned in the .hospitals which are under the direction of the Army Medical Service Branch of the Militia Department. But if cases are likely to be incurable or to require very lengthy treatment, the men are discharged from the army and placed under the care of this department.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not wish to prolong the discussion if it is out of order, but as we are discussing a vote on a new department, I thought the minister could give an outline of its work. But if you, Sir, insist that I atn out of order, I will abide by your decision. Is this going to be a permanent department?


Newton Wesley Rowell: It is desirable that the bulk of the work of this department should be done in the next two years; it has hardly yet reached the maximum of its work, which will be reached when all our soldiers return from overseas. Perhaps it would be better if on this particular item questions were asked which I might answer, and then when we come to the other Estimate, which deals with each branch of the work, I shall be glad to give all information about each branch as we take up the various items.


Mr. MORPHY:: The item says: "Including deputy minister at $6,000, solicitor at $4,000." Who is the deputy minister, and what are his qualifications? Who is the solicitor, and where does he come from?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No solicitor has been appointed, and the minister hopes it will not prove necessary to appoint one. The department has got along so far without one, and it hopes to continue to do so. But many questions come up and the minister thought it was desirable to have provision for the appointment of a solicitor in case it became necessary to appoint one.
The deputy minister has been in the department since its organization and was with the Military Hospitals Commission before that. He was executive officer of the Military Hospitals Commission, in which capacity he was brought into contact with all phases of the work of the department. Previous to that he was engaged in executive. direction of a commercial enterprise. He has had large practical experience in

organization work, and, as my hon. iriend will recognize, when we get into the details of the department, the number of hospitals and educational institutions under its charge, how important it is to have an efficient officer with good organizing power and executive ability in charge of this large administrative work.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What was his salary before when he was engaged in the Governmental service, and why is the salary now $6,000? I thought $5,000 was a sort of standard salary for deputy ministers.


Newton Wesley Rowell: My hon. friend is quite correct that $5,000 was the general standard for deputy ministers, and that was the salary of the deputy in this department; but in the Estimates of this year, salaries of all deputy ministers have been raised to $6,000.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I want to reiterate what I have said in this House many times before, namely, that a wrong principle is applied all through, and I wish to make another statement in favour of the underdog. The lower branches of all Government departments are absolutely underpaid, and this seems like a free opportunity for the big fellows to get the high jump without a by-your-leave or a word of protest. I protest against the ease with which the high salaried men can secure an increase, when it is so difficult for the lower paid men, such as messengers, packers and so on, to get one.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I would "sympathize with ' that view very largely if legislation were not to be brought down this session to deal with the matter. I understand the acting Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. A. K. Maclean) will, on Monday, introduce a Bill relating to the reclassification of the service, and that will indicate the scale of salaries in all branches of the service. There will then be full opportunity for discussing the point raised by my hon. friend, and I hope he will consider that what the Government proposes in the matter is reasonable and satisfactory.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: The minister has not given me quite a definite answer as to what deputy minister, whose name I do not know, was getting before in the Government service.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The deputy was drawing $4,600 in the Military Hospitals Commission as assistant to the director. When he became director he got the salary which

the former director was drawing, namely, $5,000.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Then this is an increase in salary of $1,000 in a new department of Government?
iMr. ROWELL:	It is an increase of
$1,000, just as in every other department of Government. I am free to admit there may be a difference of opinion whether all deputy ministers should draw the same salary, and I think we shall find when the reclassification comes down, there will be some recommendations on that point, but for many years it has been a settled policy that all deputies should receive the same salaries, and this department is simply carrying out that policy.


Mr. J. M. DOUGLAS:: Will that same principle be carried into effect as regards ministers?
Mr. (MORPHY: If some of the really executive departments of the Government have their deputy ministers' salaries raised to $6,000, will not that necessarily carry with it the principle of giving a similar increase to $6,000 to heads of more or less non-executive departments of Government, although the work may not be half as great?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I should say not, unless, as is the case in certain positions, they have the rank of deputy minister. A certain number of positions have been created in the service where in the Statute it is provided that the official holds the rank of deputy minister. I know there are several, and in those cases, 'I assume the principle would apply. In fact, I think the Estimates this year contain the same amount for those who are so declared in the Statute.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The work of deputy ministers varies greatly, and some should have higher salaries than others. I am not quarrelling with the salary of this deputy. Why is a solicitor required in this department? If any little legal question comes up, surely advice can be secured from some law officer in Ottawa. It is absurd to have a solicitor for this department.


Newton Wesley Rowell: As already stated, I understand from the minister that he did not expect to require a solicitor, but he thought it expedient to provide for the appointment of one. As I understand, a solicitor will not likely be required, I have no objection to the item with regard to the solicitor being stricken out.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I know one or two pien in the department who are quite capable
of giving advice on any ordinary point. They are sitting here now, and I do not see why the item should not be stricken out.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I will drop it.
Mr. MiORPHY: It is a temptation to have it in the Estimates, and it should be stricken out.


Mr. ALFRED THOMPSON:: In connection with the item $3,500 for a superintendent of expenditure, I would like to know if such an officer has been appointed, and if so, what his duties are? Is there any necessity for a superintendent of expenditure when you have a minister, a deputy minister and a secretary?


Hugh Boulton Morphy: And an assistant secretary, and accountant?	-


Alfred Thompson: I need not mention any more officers, but I think we might have some explanation as to the necessity for this office.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The superintendent of expenditure might be known by some other name, perhaps chief accountant. He is the executive head of the Accounting Branch and supervises the policy and staff necessary to control all expenditures. I think it is very desirable that there should be such an office, because it is a new department, which is spending very large sums of money, amounting to millions of dollars. The Committee will see that already the estimate is over $20,000,000, and there will have to be supplementaries. It requires the most careful supervision of all expenditures in administering this department in order to conserve the public interest, and I think that any money wisely spent in supervising expenditures will bring a large return in the way of curtailing what otherwise might be a great increase in public expenditure.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I absolutely agree with the minister, but I think that as titles were voted out last night we should call this official chief accountant.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: The hon. member for North Oxford has raised a point which is worth considering. There is a provision for a superintendent -at $3,500, one accountant at $2,500, and four at $2,100, practically six accountants for this department. You might, as the hon. member for North Oxford says, call the official chief accountant, and in addition to this accountant you have five others. Surely with six accountants in the branch there is going to be very little for each to do. I appreciate in a sense the enormity of the work, but I begin to be

staggered when I see so many accountants on a new board. I would like to have some explanation of this, as there seems to be something funny about it.


Newton Wesley Rowell: All soldiers who are
either receiving treatment in the hospitals or are being trained in the vocational institutions are drawing pay and allowances. At present there are as many as 15,284 exmembers of. the Forces drawing pay and allowance, either in connection with medical treatment or taking vocational training The accounting is a very important phase of the work of this department and it is essential that they should have an efficient first-class man, the best they can get, to supervise this very large expenditure. J do not know of any department where expenses may run up more rapidly unless carefully supervised than in a new department which is expanding to meet the increasing demands being made for the benefits it administers to returned soldiers The suggestion of the hon. member for North Oxford is perfectly acceptable. 1 do not see why the official should not be called "Chief Accountant."


Alfred Thompson: I think that "Superintendent of Expenditure" is a misnomer. I happen to know the deputy minister and the assistant deputy minister of the department and I can testify to the ability of each. I quite agree with the minister that it is necessary to have some one charged with the oversight of these expenditures, but I do not think that "Superintendent of Expenditure" is quite appropriate, and the minister might accept the suggestion of the hon. member for North Oxford.


James McCrie Douglas: There are companies divided into several units and a great deal of expenditure is being incurred in the different units. It will be necessary for the Superintendent of Expenditure to visit these units and supervise the expenditure at each headquarters. I therefore think the term "Superintendent of Expenditure" is better than "Chief Accountant."


Mr. HUGH CLARK:: The Superintendent of Expenditure will be charged with the supervision of the expenditure of considerable sums of money and probably "Chief Accountant" may not be a dignified enough title for him to maintain the authority necessary to discharge his important duties.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I move that item No. 29 be amended by striking out the words "So-

licitor at $4,000" and by reducing the total amount from $71,200 to $67,200.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Buildings, Hospitals, Sanatoria, Soldiers' Homes, Vocational Training Centres, etc., $1,300,000.
['I move that item No. 29 be amended by striking out the words "So-\n\nlicitor at $4,000" and by reducing the total amount from $71,200 to $67,200.']
Newton Wesley Rowell: The expenditure under this head for 1918 amounted to $1,700,000 and this Estimate is $400,000 less. The expenditure covers hospitals for general purposes, sanatoria for the treating of tuberculosis, homes for incurables, and buildings for vocational training. The department is now erecting new buildings in almost all the provinces. There is one at Tranquille, British Columbia, where the department, in co-operation with the British Columbia Anti-tuberculosis Society is erecting an extension for the housing of 130 patients, together with dining room and kitchen accommodation. In Alberta the department with the co-operation of the provincial government is erecting a building to accommodate 175 beds for the treatment of tuberculosis.


Mr. PARENT:: What is the expenditure?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I can only give an estimate. It is- probably very near $300,000. In Manitoba the department is contributing towards the accommodation for the treatment of tuberculosis in the provincial sanatorium at Ninette. The Manitoba Anti-tuberculosis Society is setting aside sufficient accommodation for the exclusive use of this department. In most cases the department has made arrangements with the provincial governments or some recognized institution whereby the department provides for the extension of the existing institutions in order to care for the patients. As a result of experience', the department has reached the conclusion that that means in the long run a substantial saving to the Federal Government.
In Quebec, with the co-operation of the provincial government the department is erecting 200 beds for the treatment of tubercular patients at the Laurentian Sanatorium.
In New Brunswick, the department has recently assumed the administration of Jordan Memorial Sanatorium at River Glade, N.B., and is making provision for extra accommodation at this institution.
In Nova Scotia, through the co-operation of the Nova Scotia government, the department is completing certain buildings at the' Nova Scotia Sanatorium.
In Halifax, in order to provide for active treatment cases, the department, through

the Public Works Department, is erecting a 50-bed active treatment hospital.
In Prince Edward Island, the accommodation is being completed at Dalton Sanatorium, for the treatment of tuberculous patients.
Over and above the foregoing, the department, in operating the large number of institutions coming under its control, must of necessity provide funds for the maintenance and upkeep of various buildings. The members of the committee will see that we must meet the demands made upon this department to care for all returned soldiers suffering from tuberculosis. The cases that come under its charge are not those in which an immediate recovery is expected. They are discharged from the military forces as soon as this disease is diagnosed and are passed into the hands of this department. I am sure all will agree that the country should do everything in its power to provide the best possible treatment for ex-members of the forces who are suffering from tuberculosis. These expenditures are necessary in order to provide sanatoria where they can be treated. This is usually accomplished by an extension to an existing institution thus saving the cost of erecting a new building.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has the dental corps
been transferred from the Militia department to this new department?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I understand that a
decision had been arrived at some time ago.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The Militia department
has not transferred the Dental Corps to the Soldiers Civil Re-Establishment department. The Militia department is treating the returned soldiers who require dental treatment immediately upon discharge, but the Soldiers Civil Re-Establishment department must necessarily provide dental treatment for those who come under its charge and establish its own branch for this particular work.


James McCrie Douglas: In connection with 1he programme outlined by the minister, I think the department is taking the right line in co-operating with the provincial authorities, in using sanatoria and other hospital accommodation in the different provinces and assisting in putting up buildings that will toe of some value to the country after the work of reconstruction is completed. In my experience of the working of the Militia Department and the Military Hospitals Commission, prior to the Soldiers Civil Re-establishment Department being
established, there never has been a more wasteful expenditure of public money than that which took place as between these two departments. Buildings have been erected for hospital purposes of a semipermanent character which, now that the war is over, appear to toe absolutely useless and the money is thrown away. I do not know whether the minister of this new department intends to use these hospitals which have been built in almost every province in Canada. If nothing can be done to utilize these buildings on which millions of dollars have been expended, it will toe a great loss to the taxpayers of this country. I am pleased to learn that the department proposes to take over and assist existing institutions which, in any event, will toe of some value to the people after the war. I would suggest to the minister in charge of the department in this House that he bring to the attention of the responsible minister the fact that thousands of dollars have been wasted between the Militia Department and the old Military Hospitals Commission; whether through jealousy or lack of co-operation, I do not know. The fact remains that in every town in Canada almost the same condition has prevailed, money being wasted toy one department or another that might have been used to better advantage had there been proper co-operation between these two departments.


Mr. ARGUE:: Is there any provision for hospital accommodation for invalided soldiers who never left Canada?


Newton Wesley Rowell: They stand on the same basis as those invalided from overseas.


Ira Eugene Argue: I am glad to hear that because I have been fighting a case now for pretty nearly a year and a half. In 1916 we had a man in Swift Current, Mr. McIntosh by name, who enlisted in the 209th Battalion. He is a married man, 39 years of age, has a wife and five children and is a machinist by trade. He was.examined by the battalion medical officer and taken on the strength as medically fit. He went to Camp Hughes and put in the summer there. He broke down under the training and when the battalion left he remained in Camp Hughes, was discharged as medically unfit and went home. Since that day the city of Swift Current has kept him and his wife and family. The returned soldiers pay the rent of the house for the family, which amounts to $15 a month; the town of Swift Current pays $80 per month to keep the family, and it sent him to the Mayo hospital for

treatment. The hospital sent him back and said he had broken down under army training and probably would never be much better. I brought the matter to the attention of one department after another, and let me tell you they are past masters at passing the buck. They sent me from one department to another. They sent me to the Pension Department, and the Pension Department told me that there was no provision at all for a case of that kind, that it was a recurrence of a former disability. There ought to be responsibility somewhere, and somebody has to assume it. The Militia Department took that man on the strength as medically fit on their own doctor's certificate, and I am going to stay With the job until the thing is straightened out. Up to date the town of Swift- Current has paid $1,500 to maintain that family ever since the man was discharged, and I want to know -who is going to reimburse the town.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I can understand the action of the Pension Board in saying that it was a recurrence of a disability. What is the other department to which my hon. friend presented the case?


Ira Eugene Argue: The Invalided Soldiers Commission, and then the Pension Board. The Pension Board said that they had no jurisdiction over the case at all, and that there was no provision to meet it. I do not know how it will end, but I am going to keep on pressing the case.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I should think it would be a case for consideration by the Soldiers Civil Re-Establishment Department. The deputy minister will look into the matter and take it up if my hon. friend will give him the facts. I think the Pension Board is correct in saying that it did not come properly before it.


Ira Eugene Argue: I want to assure the minister that I have given them the facts more than once.
Major-General MEWBURN: Has he been discharged from the Canadian Expeditionary Force?


Ira Eugene Argue: Yes, as medically unfit for military service. He was given his ticket, sent home, and that was the last of it.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The deputy minister will take the matter up and look into it. Jf the facts are as stated by my hon. friend, I should think that it was a case for treatment in one of the institutions of the department.


Ira Eugene Argue: We have tried several times to get them to take him back and give him
[Mr. Argue.l
treatment, or put him under observation. I have done my best to see if something could not be done, but up to date I have not been able to get any action.


Hugh Clark: Will the hon. gentleman give the name?


Ira Eugene Argue: I will give you the name and all the particulars.


Alfred Thompson: How many tubercular soldiers are at present in sanatoria throughout Canada, and how many beds are there for tubercular soldiers?


Georges Henri Boivin: I think that question would be more in order under item 334.


Mr. COWAN:: Do I understand that the cost of dental services is provided for under this vote?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No, this relates only to buildings. I just want to make one observation to prevent a misunderstanding, with respect to the remarks of my hon. friend from Strat-hcona, and I do so because I think the Minister of Militia was not in the House when my hon. friend spoke. If either of the two departments had known that the war would come to an end when it did, much less accommodation might have served, and much less building would have been gone on with; -but as the situation looked last summer almost right up to October, until September, anyway-and I recall this- matter having been repeatedly presented to Council-owing to the severe casualties sustained in the August drive and the casualties which it was expected would be sustained during the year, it became necessary to evacuate as many hospital cases to Canada as possible. Men were coming back to Canada, and the complaint constantly -made to the Department of Militia and Defence was that there was not sufficient hospital accommodation for them in the principal military centres of Canada, and it was urged that additional accommodation be provided. The department, therefore, in their view of the case, were unable to turn over these institutions to the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment because they were being used for men who came under the Department of Militia and Defence. Now that peace has come, just as soon as the Department of Militia and Defence is prepared to surrender one of these institutions it is being surrendered, if suitable, to the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment for their work. I happen to have personal knowledge of quite a number of hospitals which have been turned over in that

way recently. 1 think that, in a measure, will explain what my hon. friend has re-. ferred to.


James McCrie Douglas: I give a clear case of lack of co-operation 'between the two departments in my own constituency. The Military Hospitals Commission rented from the Alberta College a building for, I think, $11,000 a year, on the understanding that the building was to be returned in the same condition in which it was received. Last year the Military Hospitals Commission expended something like $50,000 on this building for new plumbing, baths, and work of that kind. The equipment had all been put in, with the exception of the boilers required to make the baths available, when the armistice was signed. The result is that the entire expenditure is wasted; the equipment has never been used, and if the Commission turns the building over in the condition in which it was received it will have to take out every part of that equipment. Again, the city of Edmonton offered to the Militia Department the use of one of the best hospitals in Western Canada free of charge; it had all the necessary facilities and accommodation for 180 patients, but through lack of co-operation between Military District No. 13 and possibly the Military Hospitals Commission, this hospital was caring for only twenty or twenty-five patients instead of one hundred and eighty. What I am complaining of is the lack of co-operation between the two departments, which has resulted in an expenditure of money which can never be justified.


Mr. PETER McGIBBON:: What is the policy of the department with regard to epileptics and tubercular cases? Is it still the policy to unload them on the civilian institutions, as was done a year ago?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I am not aware that that was the policy, and so I am advised by officers of the department. The policy is to take care of these men until they have recovered, and that is the object of these various institutions for which I am asking this vote.


Peter Robert McGibbon: My point is this: Instead of the 'Government taking care of these cases in their own institutions and with their own doctors, they were turned over to civilian institutions at a cost of so much per day or per month. Is that still the policy?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No. The policy is for the department itself to care for these patients
in these institutions for which we are asking this money.


Peter Robert McGibbon: I am very
pleased to hear that statement. I raised this question a year ago, but I did not get much consideration. I trust that more accommodation will be provided in the future than in the past. I have visited many of the civilian institutions from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and I did not find one where I thought the men were getting sufficient care and treatment. I am very glad to know there has been a change.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I am glad to say that
the results of the treatment have been very satisfactory. About seventy-five per cent of the men treated have been able to resume work in gainful occupations.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: At what centres
is vocational training being given in connection with the hospitals, and is there any arrangement with the provinces to assist in providing buildings for this purpose? About what proportion of this vote of $1,300,000 will be devoted to vocational training?


Newton Wesley Rowell: There are some twelve
centres in which vocational training is being given at the present time-Montreal, Ottawa, Halifax, Kingston, Toronto, London, Winnipeg, Calgary, Guelph, Regina, Victoria and Fredericton. Besides the departmental training centres there are outside schools to which the pupils are sent. A number of men are also under training in industrial establishments under actual working conditions. In the Quebec district, last year there were 3 schools carried on by the department directly, and 4 this year; Nova Scotia, 2 last year, and 3 this year; Central Ontario, 3 last year, and 2 this year. Central Ontario, 8 last year, 8 this year; Western Ontario, 3 last year, 2 this year; Manitoba, 1 last year, 2 this year; Saskatchewan, 3 last year, 3 this year; Alberta, 3 last year, 2 this year; British Columbia, 3 last year, 5 this year; New Brunswick, 1 last year and 1 this year. The total number last year was 30, this year 32. The principal increase has not been in the schools under the direct charge of the department, but in other schools with which the department has made arrangements-institutions of the provinces, universities, and other schools. The total number of those last year was thirty-seven; this year one hundred and twenty-seven. So that the department has, during the year, been carrying out the policy of co-operating as far as practicable with the various provincial gov-

ernments and the educational organizations of the provinces in order to utilize those schools for vocational work as indicated by the increase and so reduce capital' expenditure.
One of the most important features of the retraining is in connection with the men working with independent firms. In fact, the war veterans have impressed very strongly upon the department that the men should have their practical .training by working under ordinary business conditions. The number of firms in which soldiers are engaged in that way has increased from fifty-seven in March, 1918, to nine hundred and ninety-three in 1919.


Mr. ARTHURS:: I notice you stated that Calgary had three schools last year and it now has two. Is one of those schools located in Edmonton?


Newton Wesley Rowell: There is one in each place.


Peter Robert McGibbon: Is any provision made for getting this vocational training at night, or is it all during the day?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The department has not made any provision for training at night. Soldiers who are taking this retraining are disabled, and night classes- would impair their physical well-being. As they receive pay and allowances when receiving retraining there is no hardship entailed.


Peter Robert McGibbon: The reason I ask the question is that I have been approached by a number of men who are in employment part of the day, and who would like to have the privilege of attending some classes at night in order to make themselves more proficient.


Newton Wesley Rowell: As I understand my hon. friend's question, he is referring, not to disabled men, but to soldiers who are physically fit and who would like to qualify themselves more effectively for their particular work.


Peter Robert McGibbon: Not exactly what you might call totally disabled. They are able to carry on, and they have employment which they are not exactly satisfied with, and -they would like to qualify themselves for something better.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The question my hon.
friend raises is one deserving careful consideration, and I will commend it to the officers of the department. So far the department only deals with disabled men, that is, men who are so disabled that they cannot carry on their pre-war occupations.

The department grants them pay and allowances while undergoing re-training.


Donald Sutherland: Is the department doing anything towards the education of a number of these men in agriculture; and, if so, what buildings are being used for the purpose in connection with some of the agricultural colleges and experimental farms?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Generally speaking, so far as training in agriculture is concerned for men who wish to engage in farming, that is under the Soldiers' Settle-bp.m. ment Board. The Department of Soldiers Re-Establishment do a certain amount of retraining of disabled men who were formerly general farmers. These men are trained in specific branches of farpiing pursuits such as market gardening, poultry raising, operation of tractors, gas engines and farm machinery. It is only to that extent that they provide training in agricultural matters.


Sir HERBERT AMES:: I understand that in addition to those men who are partially or totally disabled, there is a class now being educated composed of young men who went overseas when under eighteen years of age. Has the minister ever considered extending -that class to include young students over eighteen who on their return at the age of twenty-two or twenty-three are unable to carry on without some help? They are very desirous of continuing their educational studies. While over eighteen and not suffering from any disability, yet they are unable to go on with their studies for various reasons. I think those men should have consideration.


Newton Wesley Rowell: With reference to those men who enlisted under military age, the Government has decided that some provision should be made for their re-training regardless of whether they have suffered disability or - not. That was discussed in the House earlier in the session. I am sure that decision will be sustained by the judgment of the House and of the country: that the boys who were under eighteen years of age at the time of their enlistment, and who were under no compulsion to go overseas, but voluntarily left to serve their country, should be afforded an opportunity of completing their studies.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Why should a boy of twenty not get the same accommodation when ^he comes back as the boy under eighteen? The boy under eighteen at the time of enlistment has a better, chance than

the boy oi twenty-one, because when the latter comes back it will take him longer to finish his course. The boy under eighteen is discommoded less than the boy under twenty-one who left his studies and voluntarily enlisted.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The man who enlisted when seventeen years of age in the early days of the war is now going on. to twenty-two. He has been away from Canada during the period when, if he were here, he would have proceeded with his education or would have learned a trade. He comes back to Canada at the age of twenty-one or twenty-two without a trade and with his education unfinished, and it has been represented to the Government, and strongly urged in the House, that if some provision be not made for those boys they would drift into the class of common labourers. Those boys were not under obligation to render military service, but they volunteered and went overseas. Therefore the Government decided to deal with those under eighteen years of age. So far the Government has not seen its way clear to help those over eighteen years of age.


Herbert Brown Ames: Exactly the same argument would apply, so far as I can see, to students over eighteen and under nineteen. They were under no obligation to go overseas, and, as the 'member for Oxford North well said, they are suffering greater disability than boys of sixteen or seventeen. They now come back men, and many of them are desirous of going on with their studies if they can get help. I understand that the Government was considering the education of men who were two years in the university, leaving out matriculants, for whom no provision is made in any way.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The only argument the
minister advances in favour of the idea that boys under eighteen should be considered is that they did not have to go. Well, others who were over eighteen-nineteen and twenty-did not have to go; they enlisted before the Conscription Bill was passed. But the soldier who comes back twenty-five or twenty-six years of age is at a greater disadvantage than the one who comes back under twenty-two.


Donald Sutherland: I think.a distinction should be made between the boy under eighteen who volunteered, say, a year before the war ended, and gave only one year's service, and the boy who enlisted in the early days of the war and gave four or five years' service.


Newton Wesley Rowell: All that has been decided so far is that some provision should be made for all those who enlisted under eighteen years of age; the extent of that provision or the manner of its administration have not yet been settled. The point that my hon. friend makes, however, can be considered when the regulations are being worked out.


Mr. WIGMORE:: I suggest that the age in respect of which this provision is to be made be extended from eighteen to twenty. I know the case o:f a young man nineteen years of age who had been preparing for the matriculation examination. He enlisted and recently returned after having been overseas three and a half years. When the matter is being dealt with I hope that this suggestion will be considered.


Mr. G. B. NICHOLSON:: The moment you endeavour to divide men up into classes you get on dangerous ground. The case of six young men who enlisted has come under my personal observation. Two of them, under eighteen years of age, enlisted practically as school boys. One was nineteen just starting at the university, and the other three who were from twenty-one to twenty-four years Of age, had completed their education and established themselves in business. Those who had finished their education and had put everything they had in the world into their business felt the call, gave up everything and went to the war; they come back' twenty-six, twenty-seven or twenty-eight years of age and have to make an entirely new start. The boy who was sixteen or seventeen when he enlisted has the advantage of years over these men, and if you compensate the soldier only if he was a certain age when he enlisted, you will get into endless difficulties. It is not practicable to make a dividing line; if you do, there will he overlapping and consequent dissatisfaction. If the department will confine its energies in this regard to the education of men who come back disabled or are unable to provide for themselves, they will be on much safer ground.


Georges Parent: Some time ago the member for Quebec South (Mr. Power) inquired of the Government whether it was true that the late Gustave Stuart, K.C., of Quebec, had bequeathed his beautiful estate to the country for the purpose of establishing thereon a soldiers' home or a sanatorium. To that question the Secretary of State answered " No " and the Department of Militia " Yes." We have been trying to



find out whether the department, or whatever department the matter may come under, has taken any steps to do something with that property, which is very valuable and surely ought to be taken advantage of.


Newton Wesley Rowell: It is correct that that beautiful property was presented to the Government. It is now being put into shape by this department for the re-training of ex-members of the forces in certain phases of agriculture.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I asked a question early in the session with regard to this matter, and the answer of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment was to the effect that plans were being prepared for the utilization of the property. We have been spending thousands of dollars all over the country in the purchase of properties for the establishment of sanitaria, agricultural farms, and so on. But here is a property, the best located in that part of Quebec, which has been in the possession of the Government for a considerable time; and we are now told that preparations are being made for its use in the re-training of soldiers in some "phases" of .agriculture. May I ask in what phases of agriculture? In what way is the department going to use it, and why was it not used before?
Mr. ROWELL.: At the time it was given the only use the department had for it was to turn it into a hospital, but it was not considered desirable or in the public interest that that should be done at that time, not only because of the character of the place, but because of its situation. There were not the necessary transportation facilities to reach it conveniently, and the necessary water supply for hospital purposes was not available. A considerable expenditure of money would have been necessary to provide an adequate water supply. But the property is well suited for the purpose to which it is now being devoted. I understand that some thirty-five soldiers will shortly be there receiving training in poultry farming, truck gardening, dairying, and activities of that kind in which the soldier who is more or less disabled can engage with advantage to himself and country.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Is it the intention of the Government only to train soldiers in poultry raising or truck gardening on that or any other farm, or will financial arrangements be made to enable returned soldiers to purchase small lots of land in the vicinity of cities for the purpose of carrying on such work?


Newton Wesley Rowell: That is a matter which comes under the Soldier Settlement Board. A Bill is now before the House to deal with that and other aspects of the matter. I do not know its express terms, but, generally speaking, the Government is making provision under that Bill to assist returned soldiers to acquire property for the carrying on of agricultural pursuits.
When, the Bill comes up, the whole matter of its scope and the character of the property to be purchased may be discussed.


Georges Parent: I should not like the minister to be under the impression, that water cannot be obtained on the St. Louis road property. It is next the yards occupied by the Transcontinental railway and Government locomotives go there for water many times a year. In the same parish in which this is situated, a tuberculosis hospital has just been, erected by private subscription. and water has also been obtained there. If private citizens have been able to secure water for a private hospital, surely the Government can afford to go to the expense of obtaining water on property which has been granted to them gratuitously.
Maintenance of patients, $3,000,000.


Newton Wesley Rowell: At present 7,800 patients are in the hospitals of the department, 1,800 are being treated in specially designed and equipped sanatoria for the treatment of tuberculosis, 600 suffering from mental disabilities are under the care of specialists in the treatment of mental diseases, 5,400 are receiving intermittent general treatment.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The purchases for this equipment, medicine, food, knd all that is required for maintenance are, of course, made in large quantities. Are tenders called for?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The purchases are made through the War Purchasing Commission.


Georges Parent: Are any patients being treated at the Kent House, near Quebec city, or will there be any in the near future?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The Kent House does not come under the Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, and I .cannot give my hon. friend any information in regard to it.


John Howard Sinclair: With reference to the minister's statement that the War Purchasing Commission does the purchasing, is there not a purchasing agent in the Department of Militia, and has he nothing to do with the purchases of these supplies?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The Department of Militia has nothing whatever to do with the purchase of supplies for the Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment. The Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment makes its requisition for the supplies it requires, and the purchases are made under direction of the War Purchasing Commission which supervises everything that is purchased.


John Howard Sinclair: Is the minister using existing technical schools in Canada for vocational training, or is he establishing new ones in the different centres? What, for example, is he doing at Halifax?


Newton Wesley Rowell: For the Military District of which Halifax is the centre, the department has three schools of its own for vocational training, but under arrangements it has with fifteen other schools in Nova Scotia, returned soldiers are being trained in those schools. The bulk of the department's work, so far as it relates to vocational training, is (being carried out under an arrangement between the department* and the various institutions existent in Nova Scotia.


John Howard Sinclair: Who is in charge?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Professor F. H. Sexton, an officer of the department ds in charge of vocational training, is in charge at Halifax.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister said that there were in the province other places where technical education was given to soldiers. What are the names?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I have not the names of the different localities in Nova Scotia, but I shall be glad to get the information, and I will write my hon. friend giving him all the different places where these are in the province.
Mr. LEM'IEUX: Supposing a soldier at Ste. Anne de Bellevue hospital near Montreal wants to get some technical training. If he does not find at the hospital the necessary equipment, is the department doing anything toward sending him, say to the technical schools we have in Montreal?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes. A certain phase of this re-training is carried on in the hospital, if the soldier is able to do this work, and it aids in the cure of the patient to have him encouraged to undertake certain work in the hospital. As soon as he is able to be transported from the hospital and to undertake work in an institution or commercial enterprise outside of the hospital, arrangements for that are made.
176i


Alfred Thompson: How many tubercular patients are being treated in sanatoria at the present time, and how many beds has the department ready for returning tubercular soldiers?


Newton Wesley Rowell: There are at present approximately 1,800 tubercular patients undergoing treatment, and approximately 150 vacant beds, so that the hospital accommodation for tubercular patients is at the present time in round figures 1,950 beds. Then, in (those various units which I have mentioned, which are now in course of construction, provision will be made for about 859 additional beds, making a total of about 2,800 beds available for treatment of tubercular patients when the present accommodation is completed.


Alfred Thompson: I am not quite clear as to the scheme under which this department is operating; that is to say, I understood from the minister that a returned soldier, discharged to civilian life, was, if requiring treatment, entitled to free treatment for one year. s Is that correct?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes. There are two
classes of cases. A man who is discharged without disability, and who suffers from any disease or injury during a year after discharge gets free treatment if the disability is not due to vice or misconduct. That is a provision made by the Government for the returned soldier, and it is effective for one year after discharge.


Alfred Thompson: That is if he breaks down within a year.


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes, if he suffers from any disability or disease not due to vice or misconduct. That provision was made a few months ago. If a man breaks down and his collapse is due to or aggravated by service he receives not only free treatment, but pay and allowances for himself and his actual dependents so long as he is thus disabled.


Mr. MICHAUD:: I understand there is a soldiers' home in Ottawa; what does it cost per day per patient?


Newton Wesley Rowell: I do not know to what home my hon. friend refers.


Pius Michaud: The Soldiers' Home in the city of Ottawa.


Newton Wesley Rowell: There is no Soldiers' Home in Ottawa operated by this department. There may ,be an hospital under the Department of Militia and Defence. I believe there is the Sir 'Sanford Fleming Home, but I have no knowledge of that.

Vocational Expense, Administration and Training, $750,000.


John Howard Sinclair: What does that include?


Newton Wesley Rowell: This includes the administration and training in the vocational branch. It covers such matters as maintenance, repairs, light, heat, and power, stationery and office supplies, ear fares of soldiers attending classes, telephones, telegrams, laundry and clothing expenses, subsistence of staff, subsistence of students attending vocational school. That would be the meals they might have there while the school was in session.


Georges Parent: Has any part of this
amount been expended?
Mr. ROWEILiL: No; this is a vote for the present year. The actual expenditure last year on this head was $645,452. The amount is larger this year because there will be a larger number of students attending these vocational classes..
Salaries, Administrative, Clerical, Training, Industrial, $5,178,420.


John Howard Sinclair: This is a very
large item for salaries, and it does not include all salaries, because doctors and nurses are under a separate item. Cooks, orderlies and general staff are also separate. It seems that a very large proportion of the whole expenditure is salaries, and it 'would be well to have some explanation of this item.


Newton Wesley Rowell: Previous to the transfer to the Department of Militia and Defence of a number of hospitals operated by the Military Hospitals Commission, men who broke down as a result of their war service were given treatment in hospitals by the Military Hospitals Commission, and their pay and allowances were issued by the Department of Militia and Defence. Under the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment the number of men for treatment on April 1, 1918, was 1,776, and this number has increased in the present year to 7,381.


John Howard Sinclair: Do I understand the minister to say that we have 7,381 employees in this branch?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No. I was speaking of the maintenance. The numbers taking treatment or being retrained necessarily largely determines the number of employees. These salaries are for all , branches of work of the department including the new Information and Service Branch *co-operating with the Department of Lab-IMr. Rowell.]
our. The personnel served by the department has increased three-fold during the past year and probably the peak of the load has not yet been reached.


Rodolphe Lemieux: May I interrupt the minister to ask what connection this has with the Department of Labour?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Before I answer the hon. member there are two or three facts I would like to give the Committee. This salary item varies, as pray be supposed, with the general variation in the number of men cared for. The occupational work carried on in hospitals by this branch has been developed considerably during the past year. On April 1, 1918, the number of men undergoing curative training, together with those in attendance in certain work shops, was 3,817, while on April 1, 1919, the number was 9,059, thus entailing increased instructional facilities together with increased cost of administration. It is expected that the rate of growth will be materially accelerated in the near future. For the last three months the increase has been at the rate of about 2,000 per month. My hon. friend has asked what is the relation of this work to the Department of Labour? Under the Act passed last session whereby provision is made for co-operation between the Federal Department of Labour and various Provincial Governments, a number of employment offices have been established throughout Canada. In each of these offices there is a representative of the Department of Soldiers' 'Civil Re-Establishment. That representative is paid out of this vote. The object of having a representative of the department in each of these employment offices is to ensure that the returned soldier when he comes seeking employment not only gets a fair show, but is given the preference as far as is possible. It is proving to be of great advantage to have representatives of the department in all these employment offices throughout Canada. The representative is there to meet the soldier when he comes in, and to keep track of all opportunities of employment that may be available and to acquaint the men of them. I am glad to say that the results are proving very gratifying.
Up to the 17th of May, just a week ago, the number of applications from demobilized soldiers for employment was 30,146. The total number placed in positions was 22,838, being 75.7 per cent of the number of applications received. In addition to the placing of demobilized soldiers in employment.

the representatives of this branch have interviewed on their return to Canada 150,297 members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force with a view to giving them information or assistance, and particularly for the purpose of properly informing each man as to the benefits which are provided by the Government of Canada for him.
The number of men seeking information from the representatives of the department on matters other than placement in employment averages about 40,000 per month.
Under this branch information was gathered from every soldier on the field as to the particular occupation or pursuit in which he would like to engage on his return.
The department has information collected from all the soldiers who were overseas which gives a full record in the case of every soldier and the occupation in which he desires to engage on his return to Canada. This involved the collection and tabulation of over 6,000,000 items of information. We were able to ascertain what percentage of men desired to engage in any particular occupation. All that information was collected and tabulated by the Information and Service Branch of the Department.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Does that include university training on the other side?


Newton Wesley Rowell: No; the Khaki University is under the Department of Militia and Defence.


John Howard Sinclair: I would like more details from the minister about this large item of -$5,178,420. What is it for?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Salaries-Administrative, clerical and indus-'trial re-training.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister tell me how large a staff he has in these different branches?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The total number of employees to be paid out of this vote, on the 31st March, 1919, was 3,891. Of these 37.8 per cent are females in clerical positions not sought by returned soldiers. Of the total remaining 34.8 per cent had seen service in France; 4.7 per cent had seen service in England; 4.2 per cent had seen service in Canada; 2.2 per cent had been rejected or exempted; 6.6 per cent were over age or under age, and only 6.4 per cent were male employees who had not seen service in the C.E.F.


John Howard Sinclair: You are classifying them altogether?


Newton Wesley Rowell: That is classifying them altogether.


John Howard Sinclair: What number are returned soldiers?


Newton Wesley Rowell: 1,698 actually served with the forces or 43.7 per cent of the total number of staff. If females are excluded the percentage of those who served with the forces is 81.5 per cent.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I have here Sessional
Paper No. 263 being a return from .the Department of the Secretary of State to a large number of questions. Amongst others there is the question whether it is true that only returned officers are offered the higher positions in this department. The answer is:
No. In selecting ex-members of the force for vacancies in the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment, the suitability of the applicant and his particular qualifications for the position are the determining factors.
That is very good. II quite agree with the minister but in selecting suitable persons to fill the higher positions, I think pains should be taken to inquire into the qualifications of not only returned officers but non-commissioned officers and men. The minister states that he has 6,000,000 odd records of these soldiers who were overseas. Surely, with these 6,000,000 odd records, and with 400,000 men, if the department would take the pains to look them over, they would find some men who had these qualifications and who possessed the peculiar knowledge of the needs of the returned soldier to fit them for the position of deputy minister or other higher positions.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I will convey my hon.
friend's representations to the minister in charge of the department. I now have the information that the hon. member for An-tigonish and Guysborough (Mr. 'Sinclair) asked for as to the institutions in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island where training is being given. They are the Nova 'Scotia Agricultural College; Acadian Business College; Acadian University; General School, Glace Bay;- Charlottetown Business College; County academy, Halifax; Dalhousie University; Dominion Navigation School, Halifax; King's College, Windsor; Maritime Business College, Halifax; Maritime Business College New Glasgow; Maritime College, Halifax; St. Dunstan's University, Charlottetown; Business College, Truro; Union Commercial College, Charlottetown; Nova Scotia Technical College, Halifax; Camp Hill Hospital, Halifax; Nova Scotia Sanatorium, Kentville.

Mr. PETER iMcGIBIBON:	I would like
to express the wish that the minister who is piloting these Estimates through the House would impress upon the minister in charge of this department the necessity of giving greater consideration to the claims of returned soldiers. As one of the returned soldiers in this country I think it is an insult to this army that amongst these 400,000 men they should not have found a man capable of taking the deputy ministership of a department such as this one which is dealing entirely with the problems of this war and of the men who have been disabled through service to the country. It is all right enough to give men at the bottom the little jobs as clerks and errand boys but when you have men quite capable of filling many of the higher positions I think they ought to have them.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: With regard to these many items of information which have been furnished, could the minister tell me how *many times the overseas soldiers were examined in order to secure these 6,000,000 items? If my information is correct the soldiers were bothered to death with whole series of questions submitted to them by the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment. Under these circumstances I have no doubt that it was a comparatively easy matter to get these 6,000,000 items. I want to pass to another subject-'the labour bureaus. I understand that 30,000 men have been given employment but no information has been given to the Committee to show how long these men remained at the employment which was provided for them or how many found suitable positions. My experience of sending men to the labour bureau in Quebec is that they *are shipped to positions that they cannot hold either through being injured or through not having the requisite training. They remain for two or three hours, or perhaps a day, when they have to return to the department to seek more suitable positions. When a man with an injured hand is sent down to the railway station to be a mechanic or something of that kind, or to do work that he cannot possibly do, I do not see that there is any reason for congratulating the Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment on what it has done in connection with finding employment for men. The experience of every member is to the effect that very few men placed by the department have remained in the positions which have been found for them.


Newton Wesley Rowell: The department has a system of follow-up in all oases where em-
	,
ployment is secured with a view to seeing if the employment. is satisfactory and assisting the soldiers in finding permanent positions. It may be quite true that some soldiers find position which are not suitable but every effort is made to secure such suitable employment as is available. Of course, the department cannot create employment. It can only offer the soldiers the best positions available. If he should find the position unsatisfactory and leave it, the department will endeavour to secure him another. The department follows him up to see that he gets satisfactory employment. 65.2 per cent of those who have been re-trained are still in the positions found for them when they graduated.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I know a farmer, a returned soldier, who went to the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment looking for a position. It was in winter, and he could not farm then. He was offered a position as chauffeur for a doctor. " That is the only position we have," they said, " take it or leave it." The man had hardly seen an automobile before he went overseas, but he said he was willing to take the position, and do the best he could. The doctor gave him a week to learn, but he was not of a mechanical turn of mind and he could not learn in that dime; so he lost this position. He went back to the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment and they said: "We gave you a position, but you could not hold it." You could not blame the man for not holding it.
Hospitals and Sanatoria-salaries-doctors and nurses, $2,000,000-cooks, orderlies and general staff, $500,000.


Walter Davy Cowan: 
Rodolphe Lemieux: The transfer has not been made yet?


Walter Davy Cowan: The minister this afternoon announced that he was going to establish that service. I have every reason to believe that the Canadian Army Dental Corps is to be continued for service to the Militia Department, and that this new branch is to be used in the service of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I think my hon. friend understood me, but perhaps some other hon. members did not. The Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment is not taking over the Dental Corps, but is establishing a branch for treating the ex-members of the forces coming under its care.
Major-General MEWBURN: We felt that during demobilization we could not disband the dental service. A very large number of men are coming back from overseas or are here already, some thirty thousand, who will require further dental treatment. Many of them are suffering from trench mouth and other mouth diseases, and it would be manifestly unfair not to give them treatment. At first we thought it could be done in connection with the Department of Soldiers' Civil. Re-Establishment, but that was not considered feasible. So after consultation, we decided to continue the Dental Service during the period of demobilization, so that the men requiring treatment could get it.


Walter Davy Cowan: I approve most thoroughly of the course which is being followed by both departments in connection with the dental service. In the position I occupied in Military District No. 12, it was my duty and opportunity to observe conditions, and I know something of them. Many of the men are coming back from overseas in a most deplorable condition, dentally speaking. The conditions under which they have been living for the last two or three years have brought about a dental condition which is very very difficult to deal with to-day, and the minister is absolutely right when he says that they should receive the necessary dental treatment until they are at least in the condition in which they were when they enlisted. It will take a considerable time, some months, for the Dental Corps as now established to finish up their work in connection with the Militia Department. It cannot be done in the time which was first specified, namely, sixty days after discharge; that is absolutely impossible. It would nave been equally impossible, if the corps had been demobilized as at first proposed, to attend to these men in our hospitals because they are already occupied by patients who require quietness more or less. Further, it would be utterly impossible for as satisfactory a service to be given in the hospitals, because the treatment is entirely different from that of the Dental Corps. For these reasons it was found advisable not to demobilize the corps, and I approve as strongly as I can of the course which is being pursued. I am satisfied that in about a year-I hope less- it will be possible to demobilize the corps, but I believe it will be necessary to continue for a very much longer period of time a Dental Service in connection with the hospitals..


John Howard Sinclair: Who appoints the doctors and the dentists?


Newton Wesley Rowell: The doctors would be
selected by the Director of the Medical

Service, and the dentists by the Director of the Dental Service.


Peter Robert McGibbon: What percentage of the medical men appointed to this Soldiers' Re-Establishment Commission have seen service in France? I have been informed that practically all those employed are civilians who have never been out of the country.


Newton Wesley Rowell: My hon. friend is misinformed. My information is that in round figures 90 per cent of the men in the Medical Service have seen service overseas.
Pay and allowance for ex-soldiers and sailors undergoing med'itoal treatment, $5,0-00,000 ; Vocational training, $3,500,000.


Newton Wesley Rowell: While the men are undergoing treatment they are entitled to pay and allowance, and that is the estimate of the amount required, having regard to the number who have been receiving treatment during the past year and the number that we anticipate will require treatment during the current year.


Mr. J. LL SINCLAIR:: Are sailors on the same basis as soldiers?


Newton Wesley Rowell: On the same basis.


John Howard Sinclair: That is, sailors in the Canadian Naval Service?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes, those who suffered disability due to service are entitled to retraining or treatment.


John Howard Sinclair: How many ex-soldiers and how many ex-sailors are now in the different hospitals?


Newton Wesley Rowell: 7,800 patients are now in the hospitals undergoing treatment for disability incurred on active service, 5,400 are receiving general treatment under the direction of medical and surgical experts, 1,800 are being treated in tuberculosis sanatoria, 600 mental cases are being treated.


John Howard Sinclair: Does that include sailors?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes-; I have not the division as between soldiers and sailors.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I would like to know what is being done in my own province in regard to vocational training. Are many classes being taught, and in what lines?


Newton Wesley Rowell: In the province of Nova Scotia the department is conducting three schools itself, and it has arrangements with twelve other schools, and with forty-nine independent firms with whom certain soldiers are getting -their industrial training, supplemented by a branch of this department. The particular institutions in the province of Nova Scotia, as of March 31, 1919, with which arrangements have been made for industrial retraining are as follows :
Institution. Camp Hill M.H	
Nova Scotia Technical
Nova Scotia Sanatorium
Nova Scotia Agric. College
Acadia Business College. . Acadia University	
[Mr. Rowell. 1



[Stage Direction]
Course.	No. Pupils.
	Barbering		2
Shoe repairs	 2
Woodwork	 15
Con'l Education	 13
Telegraphy	 10
Dentistry	 1
Stationary engine	 1
	Marine gas engine	 5
Auto Mechanics	 40
Drafting, M. and A	 17
Structural design	 1
Janitors	 2
Elec'l engineer	 31
Steam engineer	 7
Mach, tool oper'n	 23
Oxy-Aoetylene-Wdg	 5
Shoe repairs	 22
Est'g Quan's & Surv	 3
Painter and Decorator	 1
	Telegraphy	 x
Auto mechanics	 3
Woodwork	  x
Total	 212

[Stage Direction]
Agriculture	 23
Poultry	  x
	Commercial	 x
	 Applied Science	 x
Arts	   2
		MAY 23, 1919		2777
	OUTSIDE SCHOOLS-Con.			
Institution.			Course.	No. Pupils.
Charlottetown Business College				
				
County Academy, Halifax. . . .					 2
					 2
Doan. Navigation 'School, Hal.				
					 37
					 2
				2
					 2
					 2
St. Dumsltiii s UnivfeiJwty, Cliai.				2
					 6
					 94
		SUMMARY.		
				
Outside		"		
					 49	
	Total.. .			 355	
	INDUSTRIAL		ESTABLISHMENTS.	
Institution.			Course.	No. Pupils.
			... Piano Finishing 			 1
* Atlantic Cable Office 						 1
Can. Gov't. Ry 	.. . Freight Agent 	
1 	
1
1 	
1 	
1Halifax Nautical Instr't. . ..	.Naut'l. Instr't. Reprs	
1 	
1Imperial Publishing 	. . . Boat Building 	
1 	
1Mack, G. E	
Maritime Teleg. and Tel. Co.	. . . Watch and Clock Rep	
. . Cable Splicing 	
1 	
1IViitcneu & &cnaiiner 	-	
1
1Phillips, G. & T	.. Piano Tuning 	
.. . Piano Polishing 	, . 	
1 	
1
1 	
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
2. . . . Elec. Storage Batteries ....	
1
1. . . . Machine Tool Opr'n	
1
1
1
1
1
1i
1
1Octpo Bi ijioil Glee c. Co. . .	
1
49
3'78
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In my own town I know a young man who lost his sight, and after coming iback from France he entered some school of vocational training in England-II forget its name.


Newton Wesley Rowell: Would itbe St. Dunstan's?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I think so. First he learned stenography and became an efficient stenographer-and I mention it as an extraordinary thing that a man totally blind could learn stenography-but he was a strong, active fellow and preferred manual work, so in the same college he took up a carpentry course, which he completed. On returning home the college authorities gave him two suits of clothes and $250 cash. I do not know what the arrangement is, but I thought it was a very excellent institution, and if we have more of such institutions we will be doing some good.


Newton Wesley Rowell: An arrangement was
worked out between the department and St. Dunstan's Hostel in England for the training of blinded ex-members of the Canadian Forces. Further arrangements have now been made for the continuation of their training if necessary in Canadian institutions. The St. Dunstan's scheme of aftercare for the blind is being fostered in Canada from Pearson Hall at Toronto, called after Sir Arthur Pearson, the head of St. Dunstan s Hostel. What they have done for the blind is almost a miracle, and too great credit cannot be given to Sir Arthur Pearson. We are trying to follow his example here.
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 65, to incorporate The Northwest Route, Limited,-Mr. Boys.
_ Bill No. 89 (from the Senate), for the relief of Martha Campbell.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).
Bill No. 90 (from the Senate), for the re lief of Rosa Hirst.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 97 (from the Senate), for the relief of- David Jamieson.

Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).
Bill No. 98 (from the Senate), for the relief of Lillian North.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).

Bill No. 99 (from the Senate), for the relief of Thomas Davies.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).
Bill No. 100 (from the Senate), for the relief of Frederick Millman.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).	[DOT]
Bill No. 101 (from the Senate), for the relief of George Irvine Tuck.-Mr. Wallace.
Bill No. 103 (from the Senate), for the relief of Wilmot Orley Wiles.-Mr. Ball.
Bill No. 108 (from the Senate), for the relief of Mary King.-Mr. Ross.
Bill No. 109 (from the Senate), for the relief of William Herman Depper.-Mr. Cronyn.
Bill No. 110 (from the Senate), for the relief of William Rogers Latimer.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 112 (from the Senate), for the relief of William Pinkerton.-Mr. Mowat.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Bill No. 72, to incorporate the Athabasca and Grande Prairie Railway Company, and recommending that the title thereof be changed to " An Act to incorporate the Athabasca Grande Prairie and Fort Vermilion Railway Company."-Mr. TWeedie-Mr. Boivin in the 'Chair.
On section 9-line of railway authorized:
Rodolphe Lemieux: Has a plan of this
line iDeen deposited with me Department of Railways?


Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG:: A very complete map was placed before the Committee and ' the fullest information submitted in regard to the whole subject. Senator Pope was present and gave a detailed explanation of the reasons why this charter was asked for. The matter was thoroughly investigated by the Committee. Section agreed to.
On section 13-issue of securities for purposes other than railway.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What are the other
purposes which this company have in mind?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I understand
that the company have some 18,000 acres of coal lands in Alberta, not far from the Peace River district, and their intention is to build the line beyond the coal mines into the Peace River district for the purpose of distributing the coal. They have already paid into the Dominion Treasury about $125,000 in annual dues on these lands. The extent of the coal fields is reported to be very great and the quality

of the coal the very best. They have already expended about $250,000 and cannot proceed any further until this line of railway is constructed.
Mr. iLEMIEUX:	It is an interior line;
it does not reach any seaport?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: It is an interior line. It does not parallel any other line; it is being built merely for distribution purposes. They connect with the National Transcontinental and the Canadian Pacific and distribute over a section of the Peace River district that at present has no railway facilities.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
In 'Committee on Private [Bills:
Rodolphe Lemieux: Some time ago I asked the Acting Minister of Justice (Hon. Mr. Meighen) if he was aware that a case was pending before the Privy Council in connection with the claim made by the provinces in the West that Provincial Courts had jurisdiction in matters of divorce.
I asked the Acting Minister of Justice if the Federal Department of Justice was represented. I notice that the case is being or has been argued before the Privy Council, and that the Dominion Government is not represented. This is a very important .matter affecting a question of the highest importance and one in which the Dominion Government ought to have been represented.


William Thomas White: I am not familiar with the circumstances connected with the case to which my hon. friend has drawn attention, and I am therefore, not able to state whether it is a case in which it is proper that the Dominion should be represented. I would suggest that the hon. member ask the question of the Acting Minister of Justice when he returns from Winnipeg.


DEPOSITS IN DIVORCE CASES.
[Stage Direction]
In Committee on Private Bills:
Rodolphe Lemieux: I wonder if all the deposits have been made in these cases. I noticed in the press the other day that a senator stated that the deposits were not always made. It As simply appalling to think of the number of divorces that have come before Parliament this year. I think
there are more cases of divorce this year than there have been since Confederation.


William Thomas White: I am sorry I
have not the information respecting the matter.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: These Bills have passed the Private Bills Committee.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I should like to know from the Chairman of the Private Bills Committee if he has ascertained that all the deposits required by law in these cases have been made.


William Thomas White: Probably when the Chairman of the Private Bills Committee (Mr. Steele) is in the House, my hon. friend will ask him.


SECOND READINGS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 114 (from the Senate) for the relief oif Vernon Balm Bailey-Mr. McCurdy.
Bill No. 102 (from the Senate) for the relief of Simon John Fraser.-Mr. Morphy.
Bill No. Ill (from the Senate) for the relief of Mary Ann Schedb.-Mr. Fripp.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Mr. J. M. Douglas for the return to the Senate of the evidence taken in divorce cases:
Rodolphe Lemieux: I am informed that the fees in these divorce cases are remitted. Of course in doing this we are facilitating the granting of divorces by the Parliament of Canada. I do not sit in the Committee when these cases come up because I do not recognize divorce, but as a public man and as a Canadian, I am appalled at the number of divorces Parliament is granting. There are more divorces during this session than since 'Confederation and that is a period of half a century. I had always thought that Canada was a British country, but we are being fast Americanized: In the United States there is one divorce for every twelve marriages. Ottawa is becoming the Reno of Canada as a result of the granting of innumerable divorces. I take the number of divorce Bills that we have passed this evening. Ten have received their third reading and five or six their second reading. Going on at this rate, it is evident that we are passing through a social revolution. The institution of the family on which sqciety rests is passing through a crucial test indeed. I would certainly object to the remission of the fees in these cases.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply -'Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Public Works-chargeable to income-harbours and rivers-Nova Scotia, $201,330.
['No, this vote is not for the purpose of being applied on this building. It is practically for the staff of the National Gallery.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Hon. Mr. Carvell the House adjourned at 11.05 p.m.\nMonday, May 26, 1919.']
Mr. CHISHOLM:: Does that mean that
all these items go through in bulk?


Georges Henri Boivin: Unless there is a
special motion that we take the resolution up item by item. They are all included in one resolution.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That the resolution be considered item by item.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Arisaig-repairs to wharf, $3,000.
['That the resolution be considered item by item.']
John Howard Sinclair: When will that
work be done?
Hon. F. B. CARVELL (Minister of Public
Works): We will proceed with it just as soon as the money is available. Wherever it is possible, to prepare the plans and specifications they are being prepared and there will be some cases in connection with this list in which we have actually called for tenders before the money is voted, taking the ground that a vote of one-sixth of the Estimates is a justification for proceeding. We have found in the past, and I believe it has been the experience of all ministers and of the department generally that a great deal of time is lost by reason of waiting until the Estimates are all passed by the House. It takes some time to get these works under way and our intention is to have the work started at the earliest possible moment and to have it finished before cold weather comes on.


John Howard Sinclair: This work is very much needed. The wharf at Arisaig is in very bad condition. But if the Department of Public Works comes along in its usual leisurely way, I am afraid the work will be of very little use to the people during the present season. I would urge upon the minister the importance of having this matter attended to with as little delay as possible.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I appreciate that.
Boisdale-wharf, $1,800.


Mr. McKENIE:: That is to replace a
wharf that was there -before?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, for repairs.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Does the minister intend calling for tenders?
[iMr. Lemieux.]


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.
East Bay Beach-wharf extension, $650.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is that the wharf at the head of the bay?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Beach Bay is off the Bras d'Or lake somewhere. My hon. friend ought to know the geography of it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I know the place very well. It used to be called the Head of the Bay.
Ecum Secum-completion of wharf, $1,700. Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR: What is meant by "completion?" That wharf was built not - more than eight or ten years ago. I understand it is not in very good repair, and that this money is being voted for the purpose of putting the wharf in repair. Am I right in that?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is for the building up of a crib 40 by 40 feet and 4 feet high, and also the building up of a crib 26 by 20 feet and 10 feet high, in order to complete the wharf which was constructed in 1914.
Gabarus-extension of beach protection, $1000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is that for a new work or is it to extend a section of Gabarus harbour?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is to continue the pile protection work to the already existing wharf and for the protection of the harbour.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Last fall, or a year ago last fall, there was a terrific gale that did a great deal of damage to public works in that district. Many claims or demand^ came to the department for repairs after the storm. I understand that there was considerable damage done to the wharf at Gabarus. This is probably for replacing or extending the work that was done before?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is.
I-iivingstone's Cove-to repair and strengthen wharf, $4,600.


John Howard Sinclair: What is to be
done there?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is to repair the
damage caused by the severe storm of November, 1918. A cribwork block 65 feet long, 16 feet wide, and of an average depth of 16 feet, is to be constructed. The block will have a creosoted substructure.


John Howard Sinclair: What I said about Arisaig applies to these other places.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I can assure my hon.
friend it applies to every public work for which I am asking an appropriation. I appreciate as much as anybody the necessity of getting to work early. I admit that we did not make as early a start last year as we should have done, and I am afraid that in many cases this year we shall not accomplish all we wish to do. Every week I demand from the engineering office a statement of the entire progress on all important works under the department; a statement also of the works for which tenders are being called; a statement of the works in respect of which we shall be able to call for tenders next week; and another statement showing the preparations. I find that demanding this information hurries things along. We must have about three or four dozen works now actually contracted for in different parts of the country for which the money has not yet actually been voted.


John Howard Sinclair: Has the material been ordered for the work at Livingstone's Cove, and have any steps been taken in- the construction of the wharf?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No. The difficulty is this: We are taking the ground that on any public work for which we can call for tenders we are justified in calling for tenders even before the Main Estimates are voted, but in respect of works which must be done by day labour, such as small repairs like this, we have to have the money voted before we can pay the bills.


John Howard Sinclair: We voted one-sixth part of the Estimates some two months ago. That would surely enable the minister to take some action in preparing for the work this summer. At least, he could have contracted for the material. 1 presume that in nearly all these cases the work will have to be done by day labour because you cannot very well contract for these repairs. Consequently, it is of the greatest importance that material should be ordered as early in the season as possible. This is one of the worst seasons of the year in which to obtain material in that locality, because the farmers are all busy and no one can be got to do that kind of work, whereas a month or two ago they would have -been very glad of the opportunity of taking out some timber and getting ready for the season's work. But that time has passed, and there is no help for it. All I will say is that it is not the way we would like the business to be done. There is very urgent need of the repairs to Malignant Cove, which is the next item, and the deputy minister was kind enough to tell me that he would do something towards having those repairs made. The top of the wharf has been carried off and landed in a field some distance away, where some farmer rescued it. The planks are there and it is very important that the repairs should be made because a ship discharges there and the wharf is required for the goods. Has the minister had any word from the locality about what is being done there?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, T dp not think any word has come back. But positive instructions were given to the engineer to proceed with the work at once. As to the other wharf my hon. friend referred to, I cannot say that instructions have been given to procure materials for this particular work, but we have already made arrangements for a large amount of material in all parts of Canada in order to be ready to start work as soon as the money is available.
Neil's Harbour-repairs to breakwater wharf,


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This wharf is also a breakwater. Neil's Harbour is a fishing village of considerable importance, and before the breakwater was constructed the fishermen did not have very much shelter for their boats, and consequently had to haul their boats up every night and launch them next morning. Since the breakwater was constructed they have been able to anchor inside, and this convenience has brought quite a number of new settlers to Neil's Harbour. In the terrific storm last year the breakwater was- pretty badly battered, and I presume the minister has received a report on the damage done.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The damage was caused in the terrific gale of November 4, 1918. The estimated cost of the repairs is $1,100, covering round timber, guard rails, face-timbers, sheathing, covering, fenders, ballast, etc.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I hope that $1,100 will be enough to restore the breakwater to its former condition. But as soon as possible the minister should have the breakwater extended for about its present length. The shelter afforded by -the present breakwater is not very great, and on account of the number of 'boats-and larger boats are coming there for shelter-there is not sufficient space for all behind the breakwater, and the request of t-he fishermen for some years back has been that the breakwater should be extended so as to give them more room. I can assure the minister that it is not

throwing money away to increase the fishing facilities along the coast of Nova Scotia. It is quite unnecessary to point out what a splendid food is the fish these fishermen catch, and how important it is they should have the opportunity of taking this harvest of the sea where there is an abundance of [DOT] it; but it is impossible to reap the harvest unless, facilities of this kind are put at the disposal of the fishermen. I keenly realize that money is scarce and hard to get-I must say, however, that large votes are being taken which I think could have been postponed for the present-and in view of the financial condition of the country I have not the appetite, shall I say, to press very hard for an expenditure at the present moment, but I trust that when our finances are in a little better shape this breakwater will be extended.
I would like the minister to bear in mind that we had in the Estimates of 1911-12 large votes for works in various parts of the Dominion-considerable of which was in the county that I represent. The Minister of Public Works of that time, Hon. Mr. Rogers, always told us that as soon as the war was over and conditions got better the works so provided for would be the first to receive the attention of the Government. Carrying out that idea, if the minister will look back to what was in the Estimates in 1911-12 after the change of Government, he will see that a great-many of the works -have been dropped.
I cannot put my finger on the page of Hansard where that promise was made, but it was made repeatedly, that before the Government undertook anything new in the line of public works the old programme would be carried out. If the old programme were carried out in regard to my own county I would be very well satisfied, for facilities would be afforded to the fishermen along the eastern coast of the counties of Victoria and Cape Breton that would be of very great benefit indeed. And those facilities would not be altogether for the benefit of the local fishermen. Boats come from all parts of Nova Scotia to the fishing grounds off the coast, and safe anchorage is just as necessary for them as for the local boats. I have said on several occasions, and I repeat it now, that no other industry in Canada to-day holds out such prospect of profitable development as the fisheries both of the Atlantic and the Pacific coast, and I would impress upon the minister and the Government the opportunity which presents itself to them to make a record in connection with the de-

velopment and proper handling of that great industry.
Port Hood-wharf repairs and extension, ? 7,000.


Alexander William Chisholm: What repairs were
done at Port Hood?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is to repair the present work and to construct a new block 20 by 100 feet. on the southern end of the block constructed during 1914-15. It is estimated that the cost will be $7,000.


Alexander William Chisholm: This wharf has an exposed location which renders it essential that the work should be done as soon as possible. As to the importance of the wharf I need say nothing, for it is the only wharf along that shore, and quite a trade is carried on there. Unless the work is done early in the summer it cannot be undertaken at all.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This work will be pushed forward just as rapidly as possible.
Saw Pit-wharf improvements, $1,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This is something new. We have heard about a mere sawdust wharf; this is Saw Pit wharf?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: It is in Lunenburg county, but it is not a sawdust wharf.


Mr. DUFF:: There are two Saw Pit wharves in Nova Scotia. 'I am not sure if this is in Lunenburg county or not-I hope it is.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is in Lunenburg county. It is only worth $1,000. It might be built partly of sawdust-I am not sure.
Scotch Cove (White Point)-breakwater extension, $8,400.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There is a White Point in my county, but I do not think this is my White Point.


William Stevens Fielding: It is in Queens county, I hope.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, it is in North Cape Breton. It is for the purpose of extending the present breakwater. The contract is for an extension, 50 feet long by
9 p.m. 30 feet wide, to the present breakwater which was originally built at a cost of $28,934.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This extension is just exactly the improvement that I was praying for at Neil's Harbour, but we have reason to be thankful that we are getting this extension. White Point would be a better name for the place than Scotch Cbve. It may be called Scotch Cove, but not to

my knowledge. I think when the wharf was built it was called White Point wharf.
Yarmouth Bar-repairs and improvements, $4,500.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I have directed the
attention of the department to the need of repairs to the wharf at Baddeck. There are breaks in the sides and at the ends; the ballast is running out, and the condition of the wharf is getting bad very rapidly. There is much tourist travel at that point in the summer season, and we take pride in the good appearance of our wharves and landing-places. The repairs required are not very extensive, and I hope the minister will do what is necessary to put this wharf in good shape.
Mr. C'AJRVELL: That is under consideration.


William Stevens Fielding: These Estimates were
prepared, I assume, some months ago, and since their - preparation the minister has no doubt received from his officials information which will be very useful in the preparation of the Supplementary Estimates. I take it for granted that in urgent cases brought to the minister's attention by his own engineers, provision will be made for such works as may be necessary. At all events, we may be permitted to hope so.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: If I provided in the
Supplementary Estimates for all works that have been suggested by engineers and interested parties 'the amount would stagger my hon. friend, who for many years was the watch-dog of the Treasury. These small works, which are constructed chiefly of wood, are naturally subject to the wear and tear of the elements, and during the war they have probably not been taken care of as they should have been. A series of storms last autumn caused damage along the Atlantic coast which will probably run into half a million dollars. In many cases we were unable to have accurate surveys made at the time these Estimates were prepared, and my hon. friend is right in saying that we have much information today which we did not have then. I am afraid, therefore, that additional amounts will have to be voted in the Supplementary Estimates in respect of many of the items in the Main Estimates.
'Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR:	A work in my
constituency that is in very much need of attention is the breakwater at New Harbour. This breakwater was built ten or twelve years ago-perhaps more than that -but it was never finished and it is not
sufficiently long to protect all the fishing boats. Before the breakwater was built, the fishermen there had to pull their boats upon the beach and sometimes sit up all night to look after them in case of a storm. After the construction of the breakwater a certain number of boats were able to find shelter behind it, and a flourishing village has grown up at that place, where a large fishing business is carried on. But the breakwater is not long enough to protect all the boats that operate in that harbour; when a storm comes some of them are unable to crowd in behind the breakwater. In 1911 the Government of that day voted $10,000 to complete this breakwater by extending it some 300 feet or more out into the harbour. The vote was carried along for one or two years after the change of Government and then it was dropped, with the promise that it would be restored. But time has passed and nothing has been done. I have not been asking for anything in my constituency during the war, because I wanted to assist the Government in saving as much money as possible. As a matter of fact, there is only one small item in these estimates for the county of Guys-borough. That is for $1,700 for repairs to one wharf. There are 150 miles of coast line in Guysborough county. That county is also one of the greatest fishing counties in Nova Scotia. I wish to say that the case of New Harbour is a very urgent one. I see that $60,000 is appropriated for harbours and rivers generally in Nova Scotia. I do not know whether the minister could find the money in that vote for this work at New Harbour, but I do know that nowhere along the coast of that province is a work more needed than it is at that place. I would urge the minister and his staff to do something in the matter and provide shelter for the fishing boats and greatly assist production in that locality. No expenditure anywhere in Canada has produced better results than have come about through the construction of the breakwater in that harbour, but unless we complete it, sufficient protection for the fishermen who do business there will not be afforded. I leave the matter in the hands of the minister, and would urge him to give it special attention.
Another matter has been drawn to my attention, a very important one, about which nothing has been done. At Wine Harbour, further west on the Atlantic coast, a storm filled up the channel. The boats could not get in or out of the harbour, and the cellars in the village were flooded with water. When the people asked the

Public Works Department to do something about it, they got the reply that the department had nothing to do with it; that it was purely a muncipal affair. But it was the closing of the mouth of the harbour by the storm that caused the trouble in the village. While the department is not responsible for keeping water out of cellars it is part of its duty to keep the harbour open. A very small amount of hand dredging would have done the work. There was no municipal authority to attend to it and it has not been done. I submit, with all seriousness, that it is really the duty of the Public Works Department to open up that harbour with as little delay as possible. Will the minister do it?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have heard of the
latter case; it was brought to my attention some time ago. I cannot agree with my hon. friend that the Public Works Department was responsible for the storm. My hon. friend might have a logical reason for asking the department to dredge out the sand and gravel that have been deposited by the storm, but I do not think that we can be held responsible for the flooding of cellars. As to the other matter, this is the first 1 have heard of it. Although this work is well known in the department, the particular matter mentioned by my hon. friend has not been brought to my personal attention. I shall be happy to give it the best consideration that I can. I would not like to say that it will be provided for out of the general vote of $60,000; it has been the experience of the department that these general votes are always required to take care of ordinary matters that come up during the year. A storm arises and a wharf or a breakwater is damaged to some extent, and it has to be repaired immediately. But if it be at all possible, I will endeavour to see if we cannot build the extension asked for by my hon. friend.
Harbours and rivers generally-repairs and improvements, $14,000.


Mr. McISAAC:: Under this item I should like to ask the minister regarding a couple of public works which are very necessary and to which I have already directed his attention. One is the projected boat harbour at North lake, in King's county. The minister has before him all the data concerning this work and is also advised of the reasons why it is so necessary. What a haven it would be for fishing boats along the coa'st, because there is no other place within twenty-five mileS where they can enter for shelter. These are excellent fishing

grounds. Thij public work was projected before the war, and tenders were called for, but in consequence of the outbreak of the war the matter was dropped. Since then nature has done something to our advantage; it has changed the outlet of the lake, and under present conditions it will not require more than about one-third of what it would have originally cost to construct this work. In addition to this, if the harbour is built and solid side walls constructed, it would afford the provincial government an opportunity of building a bridge across the outlet, which would be of great convenience to the people, shortening their travel in that section. I sincerely trust the minister will be able to bring down in his Supplementary Estimates an amount sufficient for this public work so extremely necessary, and which I have been endeavouring to get for the last two or three years.
I have also called the minister's attention to the necessity for a small wharf at a point on a little island called Boughton island, on which there are some eighteen or twenty farmers who are great producers, but who have no means of getting the products of their farms-and they are good farmers-to Prince Edward Island, which for them is the mainland, across a small strait, except in dories. The provincial government have projected a highway right across the centre of the island down to tide-water, and if such a wharf as desired could be built, at which large gasoline boats could be loaded, it would be of the greatest possible convenience to these people who are so isolated, and would enable them to carry their products to the mainland. If the minister would be able to bring down in his Supplementary Estimates amounts to cover these two items of necessary public expenditure it would be deemed a great favour and would be of the greatest possible convenience to the people to be served thereby.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I want to assure the constituents of my hon. friend that, if they do not get these works it will not be because their representative has not done his duty.
Quebec-Gross Isle quarantine station, extension of wharves, $>50,000.


Georges Parent: Has a contract been given for this work?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No. The plans are practically completed now and we are about to call for tenders.
Isle Verte-repairs to wharf.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: Isle Verte is on the south side, but opposite Isle Verte there is

Green Island, and I regret to -see that there is not a sum sufficient to finish or extend even one work there. The residents of this place are not wealthy. It is very difficult for them !to send their products to Quebec, and the river is their only means of transport. A few years ago they started two wharves, one at the upper and the other at the lower end of the island. The one at the upper end is not completed, and the lower one, opposite Isle Verte, should be extended so as to enable the biggest schooner to reach the wharf. These people exported last year over 24,000 bushels of potatoes to Quebec, and apart from the fish they catch, this is all they have to live on. I should like the minister to take a note of this matter with a view to seeing if there is a possibility of having an extension built on the lower wharf, the cost of which will only be a few hundred dollars.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is the first time this matter has been brought to my attention as far as I can remember. I shall certainly take a note of the matter and have an investigation made.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: I was sorry to see that sufficient work had not been done at Isle Verte, but I must say that I was pleased that nothing had been done at Cacouna East. I would like to know if the report is true that some money is to be expended on the wharf at Cacouna East. I do not want to take up the time of the committee in speaking about that small wharf, but I think it is a useless wharf and an expenditure of money on it will be unnecessary. I understand that $100 is to be spent on it this summer.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have no personal
knowledge of the matter but will be glad to make an investigation. Only yesterday the hon. gentleman spoke to me about it and I have not had time to consider The subject. The amount is very small, but if as he says it is unnecessary to spend the money the expenditure ought not to be made.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Only two years ago an expenditure was made merely for the purpose of erecting a fence on each side of the approach to the wharf, and if the minister were acquainted with the locality he would know that the money was uselessly spent. The municipal road skirts the shore and the farmers reside south of the road. The road is free and there is no necessity whatever for a fence because there are no cattle
to trespass. It is a very easy matter to have petitions signed. I know that the resident engineer is anxious to convince the minister that the wharf was a necessity, but unfortunately the member wants to impress on the minister that it is not, and that in fact that the wharf is useless. It is a contest between the member and the resident engineer, who, however, by some means or other succeeded in having a petition signed by about a hundred persons. I am told that even merchants six or seven miles down in Isle Verte signed the petition insisting on the necessity of a wharf at Cacouna East. It is all very well to have a hundred signatures to a petition, and I am not opposed to the expenditure of money in my riding when I am convinced that there is a real necessity for it, but when I see $100 spent for nothing, just to please an individual I must enter a protest, and accordingly I call the minister's attention to the matter.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: If the faots are as stated by the member the money will not be expended. I will see that an investigation is made immediately.
St. Laurent, Island of Orleans-Repairs to wharf, $15,000.


Georges Parent: With regard to the wharf on the Island of Orleans this item is rather large but I suppose it is due to the storm that occurred last fall destroying the wharf. I understand that the policy generally followed by the department is that when an amount is voted exceeding $5,000 the work must be given by contract and tenders called for. But I would urge upon the minister, owing to the wharf having been practically destroyed, the necessity of having the works started at once and not waiting until tenders are called for. The same remark applies to the wharf at St. Jean, wffiich has suffered from the same storm and is in about the same condition.
St. Anne de BeauprS-Wharf repairs and reconstruction, $39,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: As regards the item under discussion-(Ste. Anne de Beaupre-over a week ago special orders were given for the construction of a temporary landing place with a plank walk leading to the shore and it is our hope that the work will be all completed inside of two weeks from to-day or to-morrow at the outside. We realized that if this work was to be of use this year it must be done immediately because of the immense traffic that takes place there in the month of June. A temporary landing will therefore be ready inside of two weeks



and that "will enable us to properly prepare plans and we expect to call for tenders and have the work completed during the sum-, mer.
Ste. Famille-wharf repairs and reconstruction, $17,000.


Mr. FOURNIER:: Is there anything provided in. the Estimates for a wharf at St. Valerie in Bellechasse county? The wharf there was destroyed last fall.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I cannot state to my hon. friend what may appear in the Supplementary Estimates. I can only say that it has been put up to me in the most forcible manner possible by my hon. friend. And, as I told my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Mclsaac) it will not be the fault of the hon. member (Mr. Fournier) if his constituency does not receive the improvement he asks.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: I want to say a word about the titles to land taken for wharves. Perhaps the minister is aware that application has been made for a petition of right by the Seigneur, Mr. Fraser, of Riviere du Loup, against the Government on the pretext that the land and everything else in his seigneury belongs to him, even the fish in the river; the farmers are not allowed to fish. The seigneur does not allow the farmers to take the sand but charges them ten cents for every load they take to put upon the road. Those representing the seigneury have petitioned the Government under the pretext that the Government must pay them either a yearly rental or a certain purchase price for the whole property.
I see that the minister has an able lawyer in his department. I have to congratulate him upon that, because we do not want the case to be in the hands of lawyers named by the Department of Justice; I have not much confidence in that quarter. A lawyer has already been named by the Minister of Justice to attend to that very case, but what has the Department of Justice to do with a case which properly belongs to the Department of Public Works?
I want the minister to take note of that. If a petition of right is granted and the case goes to court let him have a lawyer to study the case, let him come to Riviere du Loup, look over the matter and see that justice is done to whom justice is' due. If the minister wants to come and see for himself he will be welcome.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Do not go on Sunday.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I will not go on Sunday to Riviere du Loup.
[Mr. Carvell.l
Mr. GAUVREAU; No minister will denounce you from the pulpit. I am quite satisfied that the minister is right when he tells me that nothing will be spent at Cacouna East. I think his intentions are good but I would like to know if, in his absence-I will not say behind his back- there is any means by which the deputy minister or the chief engineer, or some other official, where only a small amount is involved, can write to the resident engineer and say: "Spend such and such a sum of money on such and such a work," this money being taken out of the vote for harbours and rivers.
Harbours and rivers, generally, repairs and improvements, $75,000.
Can this be done without the knowledge of the minister?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, some little matters of that kind can be done without the knowledge of the minister, although there has not been very much money expended in the last year and a half by the Public Works Department that the minister has not had personal knowledge of. I assure my hon. friend that if I live until Monday morning I will see that a pretty rigid investigation is made into the matter he has referred to. If the facts are as he has stated, there will not be any money expended there this year. As to the other matter, I am quite familiar with these points involved in connection with one big seigneury down on the lower St. Lawrence. The point is one of such importance that it should be decided by the court according to the law and facts of the case. I think my hon. friend is perhaps a little severe on the Department of Justice. It has been rather an unbusinesslike arrangement that has been carried on ever since Confederation by which matters are handed over to the Justice Department by the different departments requiring legal advice. That is all right if you want simply a decision upon an abstract principle of law, but unfortunately the custom has been for many years that where there was litigation the matter was handed over to a local solicitor who might be subject to all sorts of local influences, and he was the Department of Justice, representing the Dominion of Canada. I have tried to adopt a different course. I have secured the services of a man in whom I have absolute confidence, a lawyer who has had very great experience in arbitration and expropriation cases. The Department of Justice was consulted before the appointment was made and gave its hearty assent and is loyally working in conjunction with the solicitor of the

Department of Public Works in all these matters, the one referred to by the hon. gentleman included. It is being looked after by the solicitor of the Department of Public Works in connection with the Department of Justice, because, while we have no legal right to go into court and take charge of this case, we do have the right to take a very active part in the preparation of the case, and we will be there and see that it is properly put before the court.


Peter H. McKenzie: What is this very interesting law point? Is it about land?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The point is whether the seigneurs have the ownership in the sites of all the wharves down the river St. Lawrence which are located upon the seig-neuries. A sort of test case is being raised at Riviere du Loup.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: The pretext of the seigneurs is that they are the owners of the land down to low tide, and they claim that you have no right to place the wharf there unless you pay a certain amount to them.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That we are practically trespassers in very many cases.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am surprised that that point has not been settled. When I was Solicitor General the case came before the department. The Seigneur of Riviere du Loup claimed that he was the sole proprietor of the seaweed.- People from time immemorial had gathered the seaweed in summer time but he claimed that, under his title, the people could not take the seaweed. I had a commission appointed by the Department of Marine and Fisheries and, if I remember correctly, the commission decided that it was not a weed, but an animal; it even had claws, and therefore the seigneur, Mr. Fraser, could not claim to be entitled to the seaweed. That was the decision given by Professor Prince after consultation with another authority on fish. It would be a very easy thing for the department to determine whether the seigneur can claim the shore as his property; his rights must be well defined in the title. We had a similar case in Gaspe around Grande River. We had the ease tested, and the preposterous claims of the seignieur were set aside by the Privy Council, and the people were given the right to use the shore.


Mr. E. LAPOINTE:: The case is not the same in all the seigneuries. In the case at
177J
Riviere du Loup the title given by the King of France was to certain land along the river St. Lawrence with the shore and shelter in front of that land. In other seigneuries, title is given only as far as the river, and does not include the shore. I do not think the seigneurs have any right to claim compensation for the land on which a wharf i3 built, because in all the titles navigation rights are excepted. Of course, wharves are built for navigation purposes, and surely the rights of the public are paramount to those of the seigneurs. I do not think the Government would have any difficulty in winning these cases.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is the point at issue. I have not studied it closely, but I know generally what the situation is. The case is under preparation by the department to be tested out in the courts, and when the case is decided we shall know what the court says, at all events. I am afraid the decision of Professor Prince is not of very much assistance to us when a wharf is in question, because while a wharf may have claws to fasten it to the ground, it could hardly be construed as an animal.
Harbours and rivers-Ontario-Pembroke- repairs to wharf, $1,500.


Mr. H. J. MACKIE:: I would draw the
minister's attention to the exceptionally dangerous condition of this wharf. Six large boats use it, and I would not take the price of any one of them to go on that wharf at night, it is so exceedingly dangerous. I trust that within a very few days after the passing of this item something will be done to improve the condition of the wharf.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We are now preparing
plans and specifications for every work which can be done by tender and contract, and we have already -called for tenders in a great many cases. I presume the work at Pembroke will have to be done by day labour and in the case of all small repairs of this kind we intend to start work just as soon as the item is passed and finish up the work before August or September. I can assure my hon. friend that we will be at work on this wharf within a few days.


Herbert John Mackie: The work required is patching the surface.


Mr. OASSELMAN:: I presume the minister's remarks apply also in the case of the wharf at Cornwall.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My remarks apply to
every public work for which we are asking an appropriation.

Dredging-Manitoba,	Saskatchewan and
Alberta, $45,000.


Georges Parent: With regard to this item, perhaps the minister may think that we are quite persistent in our request for certain works on the River St. Charles, in the province of Quebec. It just occurs to me that if the works cannot be proceeded with in connection with the building of the dam, perhaps we could find some means of dredging the river so as to accomplish what the people are so anxious to have done. In looking over Hansard recently I read the statement made by the minister on the 13th of May to the effect that if the works on the St. Charles river had not been proceeded with it was due to the fact that that part of the contract under which the city of Quebec was to take care of the sewage was never performed. Here is what my hon. friend said:
The sewage of at least three-quarters of the city of Quebec enters into the St. Charles river above the location of this dam and before the work was started an agreement was made with the city of Quebec by which they were to provide for the sewage.
My information is that the contract did not contain any such agreement. What it did contain was an agreement on the part of the city not to ask the Government to pay any of the expenses that might be incurred by reason of any change in the sewerage of the city. It was not a condition that completion of the works was to be dependent upon the sewage being taken care of by the city. All the department has to do is to go ahead with the works, and it will be then for the city of Quebec to attend to their sewage, if it is found necessary to do so.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend has correctly interpreted my words, and if I put his version of the contract along side of mine, I do not think there will be very much difference between us. He may be using the exact words of the agreement, and I may be paraphrasing them. There is no doubt there was an agreement or understanding with the city of Quebec that they should provide for the sewage. It is quite true we might go on and spend another J2,000,000-it will take that much to finish the works-and then when we had expended that much and waited for three months and found we had a cesspool there causing typhoid fever and other diseases, we would have to say: "We have got to take out these works in order that the city may put in its sewerage." That is not good business. 1 
would very much like to go on with ihis work. In July last I had some correspondence with the mayor of Quebec. I called his attention to the fact that the city had not carried out their part of the agreement, and intimated that I did not see how we could go along until some provision was made to take care of the sewage. I think my hon. friend, with his intimate knowledge of the location, is sufficient of an engineer to know exactly what could happen in three or ifour months' time with the small amount of water coming down the St. Charles river, i^ we built that dam and made a pond behind it. Much as I would like to proceed with the work, I do not see how we could go on with it until something is done by the city. If they would make arrangements to do the work we might start simultaneously. But until something is done by which we
10 p.m. are assured that the city will carry out their part of the agreement, I do not think we would be justified in doing anything further.
As to the dredging, I do not think my hon. friend is serious. Unfortunaetly no money can be expended by the Public Works Department which gives so little labour, considering the amount of money expended, as on dredging. Dredging is practically a machine proposition, and very few men are needed to operate a very extensive dredge. Then, on the other hand, if you are going on with the dam proposition and raise the water fifteen feet, you do not need very much dredging, because then you create an artificial lake with fifteen feet more water in it than there is at the present time. So I think my hon. friend, when he thinks it over, will see that it would not be a good business proposition to proceed with these works until some arrangement is come to with the city of Quebec.


Georges Parent: It will take a certain time before the works are finished. In the meantime, if the Government does proceed with the woTk it could get into communication with the city.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I would rather make an arrangement first.


Georges Parent: The contract says plainly that the Government will first start the work, and when it is finished the city will attend to its part of the contract. That is the way I understand the terms of the contract. But I understand that my hon. friend is afraid of typhoid and other diseases resulting from the completion of

the dam. I would remind him that there is not only a dam to be erected, but locks also, and when the works are finished it would be very easy to prevent typhoid by opening the locks and letting the river flow through as before. I call my hon. friend's attention specially to this, that an enormous amount of money has been spent on these works, and they are deteriorating while in an incomplete state, so that a lot of money is being lost in that way. If proceeded with I think the country should win out in the end.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Some years ago certain dredging was done at the -mouth of the Little Bras d'Or harbour. I think I brought it to the notice of the minister last year. I do not know whether anything was done to complete the work after we discussed the matter in the House?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think nothing was done.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: A good deal of money was spent there some years ago with very excellent results, making a splendid harbour and a good channel to the mouth of the Bras d'Or-creating a new harbour practically. The harbour was there, but there was a bar across the mouth of it. That bar was partly removed and a depth of about twenty-two feet of water obtained. But there are patches here and there that were not cleaned out, and in that way of course the channel is dangerous. The amount of work left undone is comparatively small.
In connection with that I would like to call the attention of the minister to the following. A delegation from North Sydney, consisting of the mayor of that town and Dr. McLean, waited on the minister some six weeks ago in connection with a relatively small amount of dredging at Sydney. I have not heard whether or not anything was done; the only difficulty was the obtaining of a proper dredge to do the work.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Last year our whole plan was disorganized by the loss of the dredge Cape Breton. Moreover, we had a dredge that was to do some of this work along the coast and then proceed to Yarmouth, but the demand came for the construction of the hydroplane station at North Sydney and the dredge was taken there and remained there during the latter part of the season. There is a dredge now in New Brunswick; it is fitted up and ready to start on Alonday morning to do some of this work. It is to go to Sydney and Bras d'Or and also to North Sydney. It is our intention, unless someumK>' happens that we cannot foresee,
to carry out during the present summer all the work to which my hon. friend has referred.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Where is the dredge that was working at North Sydney in connection with the hydroplane station? Is it still there ?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, but that is a suction dredge; the work referred to by my hon. friend must be done by a dipper dredge. There is no dipper dredge in that locality, but one will go down there some time in the early summer.


George Brecken Nicholson: Is anything in contemplation with regard to dredging at Little Current? It is anticipated that 150,000 tons of coal will go into Little Current during this season, but because of the condition of the channel only small boats can go to the wharf. Light-draft boats going into the upper lakes with coal cannot carry back large cargoes, and if such boats must be used the difficulty with regard to getting tonnage will be increased.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We have no dredge on the lakes that would be available for the work at Little Current. This matter was brought to my attention a number of times last year. But there is another work at Little Current which I think we must go on with. A very serious fire occurred there some months 'ago and the wharves were burned down. While I cannot make any positive announcement, I feel that something must be done at once, and quite a large expenditure will be involved. Whether it will be possible to carry on both works at that important point this summer I am. not sure, but one or the other will be proceeded with. The matter that my hon. friend has directed attention to will certainly be discussed when the Supplementary-Estimates are being prepared.


George Brecken Nicholson: I would not like the minister to feel that I suggest for a moment that the dredging should have precedence over the re-construction of the wharf, because the wharf is a vital necessity; they cannot get along without it.
Roads and bridges, $309,000.	[DOT]


William Stevens Fielding: Speaking generally,
bridges are supposed to be controlled by local governments, but there seem to be exceptions. Perhaps the minister could give in each case, very briefly, an explanation of how these expenditures on bridges come to be chargeable to the Dominion.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The first item is the
Banff bridge. Banff, as my hon. friend is aware, is in a Dominion reservation known as the National Park, all public buildings in which are under the purview of the Dominion Parliament. I personally inspected the Banff bridge; it really must be attended to. It is an ordinary light steel bridge which was probably quite sufficient for the traffic when it was constructed twenty-five years ago, but which is entirely inadequate now'. There is a tremendous tourist traffic over this bridge in summer. We are asking for ,$100,000, but that will not be sufficient to build the new bridge. There has been a good deal of discussion about the character of the proposed bridge. The people are very anxious that it shall be built along certain artistic lines. They want an arch bridge instead of a steel bridge, and they are desirous that it shall be in keeping with the rest of the works around that important centre-the Canadian Pacific hotel at Banff, and other public buildings. After investigating their request carefully we found that the granting of it would involve a very large expenditure. We had designed an ordinary steel bridge. The engineers are now working on a sort of combination steel and concrete arch bridge which will meet the traffic requirements and at the same time comply with the wishes of the people of that vicinity. The Canmore bridge is also in the National Park.
The next item is a contribution by the Dominion of $7,000 for repairs to the Capi-lano river bridge. The Capilano river flows into Burrard Inlet and is west of -the Indian reserve. I am just a little doubtful whether we have overstepped the mark or not in this vote, but I did not make the grant without personally inspecting the bridge. It seems -that some dredging was done by the department two or three years ago at the head of Capilano river, and the contention is that this dredging so changed the channel of -the river that it undermined the piers of a fine bridge that had been erected by the municipality on the route of a very important highway. One marvels sometimes, when he sees the splendid public works that have been built out in the country In these western districts, ai the faith which the people there possess. I feel that I would hesitate before I would spend the large amount of money which has been spent in that part of the country on such works. They, however, did it, and one of the piers of this bridge was washed away. It was contended by the engineers-and from what

little knowledge and experience I had in looking it over I agreed with them-that the damage resulted to a certain extent from our works. The proposition was then made that we divide the cost between the Dominion and the province and the municipality, and an agreement was entered into; in fact, I think the bridge has been constructed, and this item appears in the Estimates to cover it.


Mr. CROWE:: I understood that the repairs of the Capilano bridge would cost something around $30,000; that the municipality and the provincial government offered to contribute some $10,000 or $11,000 each, and that the Federal Government was going to contribute $10,000 or $11,000. The amount of $7,000 will not be enough to contribute one-third of the cost of the repairs.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The next item is " Edmonton-repairs to bridge." This is a small amount of $1,200. It seems that many years ago the Dominion Government built the low-level bridge across the Saskatchewan river at Edmonton, and this is to take care of certain repairs.
The next item is $2,500 for the interprovincial bridge at Matapedia, for the purpose of putting a new plank roadway over the bridge. It was under contract; the contract was not let until the last year, and as the contractors contended that owing to great difficulty in getting labour, they could not do the work within the prescribed period, we gave them the right to extend the contract to the first of June. I am not sure that the work is not finished by this time.
The next item is for a new bridge between Ottawa and Hull to replace the present Union bridge over the Ottawa river below the Chaudiere, $120,000. There happen around Ottawa many things which demand the expenditure of public money, but which would not, of course, be tolerated for a moment in any other part of Canada, and this is one of them. I do not know how this came about, but many years ago the Dominion Government built a bridge across the Ottawa river below the falls. It was perfectly good for all the traffic existing at the time, but the people of Ottawa and Hull wanted an electric railway, and they promptly put an electric railway across the bridge and then they came back and said: This bridge is not sufficient to carry the railway; you build a new bridge for us. This seemed a peculiar proposition. I know if I had asked for anything of that kind in New Brunswick, I would have been told

I was absolutely crazy, and I think I would have been. I refused to pay the total expense of building this bridge, and the result was that we entered into negotiations with the provinces of Quebec and Ontario and they agreed to pay $40,000 each, and the Dominion is to pay the balance. I believe our proportion will amount to just about $40,000. I think this bridge is under contract now for $110,000, and there will, of course, be some extras, which will bring the cost up practically to $40,000 each, and in that way a bridge which will be sufficiently strong to carry the traffic will be built.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it necessary for us to vote the whole amount?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, it will take the whole amount. We make the contract with the Dominion Bridge company, and then we receive the reimbursement of $80,000, or $40,000 each from Quebec and Ontario, so that we have to vote the whole amount in order to carry out our contract with the bridge company.
The next item is for a bridge at North Timiskaming. This is a bridge not over an interprovincial river, but over a riveT within less than half a mile of the boundary line, so that it is practically across an interprovincial river. I am sure that it was so nearly an interprovincial river that it was felt proper that the Dominion Government should share the expense. This item is to provide for the superstructure and some small repairs to the substructure. In this case the province of Quebec pays $15,000. Tenders were called for, and a contract was let some time ago at somewhere around $75,000 or $80,000, and the bridge will be finished in a very short time.
The next item of $7,000 is to take care of the approaches to bridges in the city of Ottawa. It is wonderful what people do around here, but the custom has become so long established that it has practically become law, and I suppose we must carry it out.
The next item is for repairs to bridges at Portage du Fort, also up the Ottawa river, and then there is a small amount for improvement to the river road at St. Andrews, Manitoba.


Mr. PROULX:: I am sorry I do not see in these Estimates any amount for the construction of a bridge between Hawkes-bury and Grenville. The construction of that bridge had been decided upon before the war; in fact, tenders had been called for and an Order in Council passed awarding a contract to the lowest tenderer, but
war was declared almost immediately and so the work was suspended. I had hoped that the work would be resumed after the war, but I do not see any amount in the Estimates. I hope it will be provided for in the Supplementary Estimates.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend is quite right that tenders were called for and an Order in Council was passed, but I do not think the contract was signed. It was just a week or two before or practically at the time that war was declared, and the matter was allowed to drop. When I came into the department, of course, the matter had practically ceased to exist. I have not included this in the Estimates for this year for the very good reason that I thought we should wait until the highway policy of the Dominion	and	the provinces was
settled, because I do not think we would be	justified in erecting
a bridge costing, I suppose, $500,000 or more, across the Ottawa river until we know exactly whether it will form part of the general highway from Montreal to Ottawa. Personally, I feel very strongly on this question, and I should like to see a beautiful highway extending from Montreal to Ottawa. To my mind it is incomprehensible that the capital of Canada is absolutely cut off as regards automobile traffic, from the rest of the world. A man would require tremendous courage who endeavoured to get out of Ottawa in an automobile.


Herbert John Mackie: It cannot be done.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I agree with my hon.
friend. If the railway employees strike, we should have to use aeroplanes because we cannot get out of Ottawa by automobile. I should like to see a highway built from Ottawa to Montreal, and a highway from Ottawa to the St. Lawrence river, so that we could get over to the United States and west. Until, however, the question is settled, we sho'uld hesitate to decide whether a bridge should be built at Hawkesbury or Vaudreuil. I do not want the hon. member for Prescott (Mr. Proulx) to think I am endeavouring to take the bridge away from Hawkesbury, but we should wait to see where the highway is going to be constructed, and when that matter is decided the Dominion of Canada would be justified in contributing towards the construction of a bridge across the Ottawa river.


William Stevens Fielding: Is there a well-defined principle now regarding interprovincial bridges as to what relation the provinces and the municipalities have to them?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is a well-defined
principle. The only thing is that there is a provision in the British North America Act-


William Stevens Fielding: I do not think so.
Mr. 'CARVEL,L:	I have held that opinion, but I may be in error.


William Stevens Fielding: I must not contradict my hon. friend.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: And I will not contradict my hon. friend either but it is easy to settle the question.


William Stevens Fielding: This is the reason why I imagine there is no such provision. A good many years ago, when I had something to do with the affairs of Nova Scotia, the Dominion Government would not contribute a penny towards an interprovincial bridge, but let us pay a duty on the bridge when we got the material. However, things have changed a hit since then, and I suppose there is a better understanding.


Mr. PROTJLX:: Ontario and Quebec contribute a portion of the cost of this bridge which is interprovincial, while the bridge at Ste. Anne and Vaudreuil could not be provincial. It is midway between Ottawa and Montreal. Nature has provided its location, and it is on a solid rock foundation.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I cannot say that there is any policy in these matters. I simply take things as I find them, and I have not yet asked for any appropriations for either interprovincial or international bridges. Of course, international bridges are provided for by the British North America Act, and I was under the impression that interprovincial bridges were also.


William Stevens Fielding: It may be so.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Even if it were, I entirely agree with the suggestion of my hon. friend that it is a pretty risky business to go into it. I think I ought to take this occasion to remark that it is astounding the demands that have been made upon the Federal Government, since the armistice was signed, for the expenditure of public money on all sorts of schemes. I sometimes admire the ingenuity of the men who conceive these projects. I believe I have been asked during the last four or five months to spend one hundred million dollars in all sorts of undertakings. Every day sees its quota. I think to-day is one of the small days, but the amount is pretty nearly a million. We are being asked to-day to spend money for works that would not have
fMr. Fielding.]	*
been thought of five or six years ago. The only explanation I can offer is that in the last four and-a-half years the Government has been spending tremendous sums and has been practically the paymaster for the country. People have been selling goods to the Government and receiving cheques and have not had to look after anything, and they have got the idea that the Government ought to act as paymaster. I do think that the people must have a notion that in some way we turn a crank at Ottawa and grind out notes, or that we have an inexhaustible vault filled with gold and all we have to do is to dig down with a dipper dredge and scoop it up. There must be some such conception on the part of the people or they would not make the demands they make on the Government. I am getting away from the subject of interprovincial bridges, however. I do not know where we are going to land if some one does not apply the brakes and if we do not get down to sound business principles and declare that we will not expend money except on certain really necessary public works.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I quite agree with the
statement of the minister as to the isolation of Ottawa from the rest of the country, and I think it is extraordinary that the capital of the Dominion should be so isolated. We are not isolated from a railway point of view, for Ottawa is a good railway centre. But if you leave Ottawa by automobile, when you have reached a certain radius you cannot go further. It seems to me that the good-roads policy has made such steady progress in all parts of the world, and especially in America, that the Provincial Governments of both Ontario and Quebec should see that transportation by way of good roads should be available from Ottawa eastward and westward. I am informed that it is the policy of the Quebec Government to have a new road betwen Montreal and Ottawa.
I am not at liberty to say whether it will be on the north or south bank of the Ottawa river, but the Prime Minister stated not very long ago in my presence that he did not understand why there should not be as good communication by highway, between Ottawa and Montreal, for instance, as there is between Montreal and Quebec. The good-roads policy adopted by the Quebec Government eight or nine years ago has undoubtedly produced excellent results in our province. It has attracted a large number of tourists and has improved our country hotels. It has proved for the farmer as well

as the resident of the city a source of comfort, and for the farmer a source of wealth. Coming back to Ottawa, it is incredible that this city should be isolated as it is. I am not speaking for myself. Sitting on this side of the House, I can not claim to have the privileges enjoyed on the other side. I have no automobile, but I say that the capital of the Dominion should have allround excellent communication, and in view of the improved highway system that is being advocated in every progressive province, it is not fair that our capital should be isolated.
Telegraph and Telephone Lines-Nova Scotia -Pictou Island-Telephone cable, $5,000.


John Howard Sinclair: I wish to congratulate the minister on the fact that he is doing something to put Pictou Island in touch with the rest of the Dominion. Pictou Island is situate in Northumberland Straits between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. It is of considerable size and is inhabited by a hardy race of Scotchmen and if my hon. friend will go there at any time I am sure he will be accorded a right Highland welcome. These people have never had the advantage of communication with the mainland and I am very much pleased that the minister is taking this step which is urgently needed. A friend of mine, the Rev. Allan Simpson, D.D., a retired Presbyterian minister, living in New Glasgow, was engaged in preaching the gospel to the people of this island last season when he observed the isolated condition of the place. He noticed that they had no telephone communication with the mainland and that they were at a serious disadvantage in case of sickness, or when there was any urgent necessity for communicating with points outside. I think he had a good deal to do with creating an interest in this matter and starting the agitation to obtain this telephone connection, and I am quite sure it will Cheer his heart very much to know that the minister is taking the necessary steps to bring it about. The cable, when completed, will be a great boon to the people of the island not only in connection with the fishing industry but also in their social and business relations with the rest of the country. I have been informed that the department has some wire on hand that could be utilized without incurring any great expense. I trust that the work of laying the cable will be commenced at once and that the people will have the advantage of it during the present season.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I can assure the hon. member that there are no votes in these Estimates that are not serious. When I asked Parliament to vote $5,000 to lay that cable I expect to lay it, that is, if the steamship Tyrian ever gets into the water; it has been in dry dock now for a year. When we get it out the crew will want more pay. They have been kept there without doing anything and I do not know whether we will get the boat going again or not. We intend anyway to lay the cable. I accept all my hon. friend says about the good qualities of these people. I think they must be good people. I was just wondering whether this was the island that my hon. friend was telling me about last summer where one of those good thrifty Scotch people parted with some $3,000 or $4,000 for white paper. Some sharp chap came down there. If so, I think they need a telephone to wake them up.


John Howard Sinclair: Some care will require to be exercised in order to avoid the ice m the winter season. I do not know much about laying cables but I nave heard it said that some investigation should take place to see that the best spot is selected so that the cable will not be swept away in the winter time.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I was sorry to hear the minister give such a bad reputation to the Tyrian. She must have got into bad company. We had her in Sydney.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is where she became demoralized.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: No, she was a respectable boat and she was always on time whenever there was anything to be done. But some evil genius thought that Halifax was the centre of the earth and that everything had to gravitate there. Immediately after the change of Government they took the boat away from North Sydney to Halifax, and they have of course manipulated the Tyrian ever since for their own purposes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Is it a fact that my hon. friend stole her away from Halifax some few years ago?
' Mr. McKENZIE: She was in the market for a proper dwelling place, and, having the best harbour in the world, the Tyrian being a stranger, we took her in. But she was led astray by those bad influences at Halifax. I think the trouble is not with the Tyrian, but with the people who are trying to make too much money out of her.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If you maintain a cable system such as we have in the gulf of 6t. Lawrence, how can you do it without a cable boat?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I would get rid of the
cable boat and establish wireless stations. Here we are spending $60,000 a year on a boat that does not get into the water for more than about two months in the year. The fault may be in the department officials at North Sydney or at Halifax, but it is something I will not stand as long as I have anything to say about it, and I do not think that any Minister of Public Works ought to stand it. Something must be done to limit it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Have you not wireless stations all over the gulf?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, there are a good
many of such stations.


William Stevens Fielding: In the meantime there are several cable lines which are broken, and the people interested are clamouring to have them repaired. If the Tyrian cannot do it what provision has the department made to meet that situation?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We have managed to
repair them during the past year by fitting up scows for small works. I think the Lady7 Laurier is a ship that is capable of being fitted with cable-laying apparatus, and the apparatus is stored at Halifax. Whether we can do that or not we are not going to keep the Tyrian going under present conditions. If we have to get rid of the cables we will do so and we will adopt the wireless.

In connection with the Magdalen Islands I think the cable might be entirely abolished and that we might rely on the wireless. The same thing applies to Anticosti. They have the wireless to Anticosti during the summer season and it is closed down during the winter. There is no reason why it should not be kept going continuously. There is Pictou island, Scatari, Deer island and Grand Manan off the coast of New Brunswick, and some others, were cable connection must be maintained; but we can dispense with the cable if it is necessary, in order to maintain this ship, to spend $60,000 a year.


Samuel Hughes: Does not the great
advantage of cables over wireless lie in the fact that you can utilize the cables for telephone purposes?


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is all very well to
talk about getting rid of the Tyrian. I do not care whether the minister takes advantage of the Tyrian or the Lady Laurier or of any other steamer, but the cables are there and unless you have a perfect system of wireless stations you cannot do away with them as easily as my hon. friend thinks, because in the interest of navigation these cables must be maintained. My hon. friend spoke of the Magdalen Islands. They are isolated from the mainland for four or five months in the year. You have Bird Rock, which forms part of the Magdalen islands group. It is the first station in the river St. Lawrence seen by the mariners as they come up the river. It is connected with the group of islands and with Cape Breton by cable. You have your station on the rock. You have Bryan island, which was the first island sighted by Jacques Cartier when he discovered the river St. Lawrence. For navigation purposes you must maintain these cables unless you get a perfect system of wireless stations. If you can substitute that I have no objection. I do not know anything about the Tyrian, but I do know that, on account of the very rough weather in the gulf of St. Lawrence, it happens very often that the cable is broken. I have experienced some very serious troubles myself by reason of being out of touch with my electors for weeks and weeks during the winter because the cable had broken and they were awaiting the return of the Tyrian early in the spring to repair it. I do not know what my hon. friend will do but he must not forget that ocean navigation is interested in maintaining these cables.


William Stevens Fielding: I am, like my hon. friend (Mr. Lemieux), not concerned in the Tyrian, but I am interested in the cables. There are a couple of cables that have come within my observation and knowledge which have been broken and for some months they have been waiting for something to be done to repair them. They have been brought to the attention of the minister, and the Tyrian cannot do the work some other means should be devised for doing it. It may be that the dropping of the cables and the substitution of wireless is the proper policy, and I have no objection to it; but in the meantime I hope my hon. friend will do whatever he can to help out the situation to which I have called his attention.


Samuel Hughes: I might make a
statement about these wireless stations. These are largely isolated positions and there are a great many posts, so that you would have to have a day and night operator at each place and it would be a bill of expense. I remember this was all gone into before the House some years ago. The great advantage of cables is that anybody can use them for telephone purposes. If the telegrapher is absent one could use the cable as wireless. I have no special interest in the matter other than the general welfare. I think it would be short-sighted to deprive these people of their cable stations.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I quite agree with all that has been said. I do not propose to take service away from anybody. In most of these cases there is no telephonic communication. They rely entirely upon the telegraph.


Samuel Hughes: It could be put in easily.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: You would have to lay a new cable, because they do not put telephone circuits in when they are laying these cables. The telegraph is a single wire, while the telephone requires a circuit.


Samuel Hughes: They are exactly the same.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: If my hon. friend will investigate he will find he cannot get very far on a single wire. It is true the Government telephone system is practically all single wire, but it is an antiquated system. If you are going to put in a telephone system you would have to have two wires. I quite realize that navigation must be looked after, and I believe that many of these cables must be maintained.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Ships must be reported long in advance of their arrival.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes. That can be done by wireless in a great .many cases. But I shall have more to say about this matter when we come to another part of the Estimates. I am not willing to lose $400,000 or $500,000 a year in maintaining a telephone and telegraph system when we can get along without losing that amount. I want to treat it as a business proposition.
Saskatchewan and Alberta-Peace River Line -office and 'dwelling at Grande Prairie, $4,000.


James McCrie Douglas: Would it not be possible to do without these telegraph lines in the north country now that the Edmonton and Dunvegan railway has been built to Grande Prairie?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: So far as the telegraph lines are concerned, in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta there is no necessity lor the Government ever spending another dollar; but perhaps I am going a little too far. There are one or two places where the line must be maintained, from Spirit River and Grand Prairie, for instance, to west of Hudson Hope, because there is no railroad there yet. Then, about fifteen or twenty miles of line has to be maintained around the western end of Lesser Slave lake. There are also ten or twelve miles to be maintained in Saskatchewan. Outside of that, the whole thing could be handed over to a company, and I would suggest handing it over to the Great Northwestern Telegraph Company, as that is now owned by the Government, and let them run the line where it is necessary, as a business proposition, or it could be handed over to the Edmonton and Dunvegan railway, as their line practically parallels ours.


Samuel Hughes: Why is it necessary to clear the woods when you can use the railway right-of-way?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: While the line practically parallels the railway, it deviates from it in many places and trees have to be felled.	.
British Columbia-Mainland telegraph and telephone lines-general repairs and improvements, $10,000.


John Howard Sinclair: What mileage have we on the mainland of British Columbia?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We have many telegraph lines in northern British Columbia that must be maintained as that is the only

means of communication the people have with the outside world. The Yukon line runs from Ashcroft practically up to Dawson. After leaving the Fraser river it strikes the Grand Trunk Pacific at Fort Fraser, some short distance west of Prince George. From there it practically parallels the Grand Trunk Pacific to Hazelton. Some arrangement should be arrived at about this line. There is no reason why both the Government and the Grand Trunk Pacific should maintain telegraph lines paralleling each other for two hundred miles. There is also a line from Hazelton to Prince Rupert paralleling the Grand Trunk Pacific. That should be handed over to the railway. When the Vancouver and Great Eastern is constructed to Prince George, a very large part of the line from Hazelton to Fort Fraser could be handed over, but at present we must maintain it. The line from Hazelton >to Dawson must be maintained by the country. There have been a good many suggestions that communication might be had by wireless between these places. That might be done from Atlin to Fort Fraser, but from there to Dawson you would have to have a land line. When we come to the southern part of British Columbia, it is an entirely different proposition; there it is a telephone proposition pure and simple. But I do not wish to discuss that on this item, it is a question that should be considered very carefully by the House. We could not settle it in one night or one week, or even in a year perhaps. It should be approached purely from a business standpoint.
Miscellaneous-Architectural Branch-salaries of architects, clerics of works, inspectors, draughtsmen, clerks and messengers of out [DOT] side service, $60,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: These are services that are maintained annually, the architectural branch, salaries of architects, draughtsmen, clerks, messengers, etc. These are men that we utilize in the Outside Service to go round the country for inspection purposes and things of that kind.


Herbert John Mackie: Does this
department derive any revenue from the building of the tremendously large reservoirs on the upper Ottawa river?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, we do not.


Herbert John Mackie: These large dams control the supply of water in the Ottawa. From the Timiskaming down to Ottawa city many miles might be benefited, but it seems that the dams are maintained and operated expressly for the benefit of cer-

tain mills in and around the Chaudiere and the Deschenes, while the mills on the upper Ottawa, that is, the boom area, can go practically dry. Protests are probably considered, but it is the large mills in and around Ottawa that derive 98 per cent of the benefit. Personally I think it would be well within reason that the mills in and around Ottawa should contribute somewhat to the upkeep of these improvements.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This is the first time
I have heard this question raised. One would naturally suppose that a storage proposition benefiting a mill on one part of the river would benefit mills on other parts of the same river. However, there may be some conditions that I am not acquainted with.


Herbert John Mackie: There are.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is no doubt that
these works were built expressly for the purpose of controlling the water in the Ottawa river, and there is no doubt also that they have been a wonderful boon to the water-power development in Ottawa and other places along the river. I have been told by gentlemen interested in the waterpower development of the Chaudiere that these works have practically doubled the capacity of electrical plants around this city. While we receive no revenue from these works-and I am not sure that the Government should engage in them-yet there is no doubt that they constitute the proper scheme for all parts of the country, and I only wish it were possible that the proper authority, whichever it might be, could carry on such works in every part of Canada. I am a great believer in water-power development, and the only way we can increase the capacity of our water-power is by storage dams.


Samuel Hughes: The Dominion Government has jurisdiction?


Frank S. Cahill: Yes, we have the right.


Samuel Hughes: In the riding which I have the honour to represent there happens to be a large number of these storage dams, and although there they come under the Department of Railways and Canals, I would direct the attention of the Minister of Public Works to the practice of keeping the water six inches higher than the law reserves. I wonder whether the Government would furnish us with a little dynamite to keep the water down to the proper level?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is a complaint that seems to follow the building of all these

dams. I have received complaints from Timiskaming and North Bay.


Samuel Hughes: Everywhere.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think the attendants have to work too hard and have not sufficient time to take the stoplogs out and look after them.


Samuel Hughes: Signals are sent up from Ottawa and from Peterborough when they want the water controlled. I purpose taking this matter up in another way with the Department of Railways and Canals, so far as my riding is connected, to see if some proper method cannot be devised to meet the complaints. The control is always in the interests of large' manufacturers here in Ottawa, Peterborough and in other places.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I received a complaint
only two or three days ago in connection with the North Bay works. But it only shows that people do get unreasonable, because for some weeks every stoplog has been taken out of the North Bay dam, and I am told there is greater facility for the water escaping to-day than before the works were placed there.


Samuel Hughes: That is the French river?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes. But we have
had very heavy rains and the lakes are very high, and my hon. friend will remember that we also had very heavy rains during the latter part of last year.


Samuel Hughes: They did not let the water off when it was high, and consequently when the rains continued they were flooded.
Monument to His late Majesty King Edward VII, $5,000.


Samuel Hughes: What is this, please?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: This has been carried forward for some years. The contract was awarded, but was not proceeded with.
Monument to Sir Wilfrid Laurier, $25,000.


Samuel Hughes: How does that compare with Sir John's monument?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am sorry I cannot answer the question. I will get the information.


Samuel Hughes: It does not matter.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Nothing has been done; it is just simply voted.
National Gallery of Canada, $10,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I suppose the National Gallery is this building?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, this vote is not for the purpose of being applied on this building. It is practically for the staff of the National Gallery.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Carvell the House adjourned at 11.05 p.m.
Monday, May 26, 1919.