1919-05-30

[Stage Direction]
Annual report of Railway Statistics for the year ended 31st March, 1919.-Hon. Mr. Reid.


[Stage Direction]
On the Order fcr the introduction of Bills:
Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Minister of the Interior):: Mr. Speaker, with the consent of the House, I desire to introduce a Bill to amend the Forest Reserves and Parks Act. Although notice has been given, yesterday being a holiday it does not appear on the Order Paper to-day. In view of the necessity of the Act being considered at an early date in order that the reductions from the Forest Reserves for the purpose of Soldiers' settlement may be made available in the following month, I would like time to be saved to the extent of three or four days by having the introduction gone on with to-day. The purpose of the Bill is to take from certain of our forest reserves some areas that have been inspected and found fit for agricultural purposes. I therefore beg to move, with the consent of the House, for leave to introduce Bill No. 125, to amend the Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act.
Motion agreed to and Bill read the first time!



HIGH COST OF LIVING.


Sir THOMAS WHITE (Minister of Finance) :: moved:
That a Special Committee of the House consisting of Messrs. Nicholson (Algoma), Stevens, Reid (Mackenzie), Douglas (Strathcona), Davis, Hocken, Sutherland, Fielding, Davidson,
Nesbitt, McCoig, Sinclair (Queens', P.E.I.), Devlin, Vien and Euler, he appointed for the purpose of Inquiring forwith as to the prices charged throughout Canada for foodstuffs, clothing, fuel and other necessaries of life, and as to the rates of profit made thereon by dealers and others concerned in their production, distribution and sale; also as' to rentals of dwelling houses in industrial centres of Canada and rates of return of capital invested therein, with power to send for persons, papers and records, examine witnesses under oath, engage accountants and other necessary assistants and to report to the House from time to time the result of their inquiry with any recommendations they may make with a view to effecting a reduction in such prices and rentals.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. F. S. CAHILL (Pontiac):: Would the Government state if they have anything new in regard to the strike? It is important to the House. The hon. the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Meighen) is back from Winnipeg.


Right Hon.   S@: We have a very reassuring telegram this morning from Senator Robertson at Winnipeg, who reports that the condition is greatly improved there to-day. He says that the railway mail clerks, 110 in number, who went out at first, returned within the time limit given them to return, and that there are numerous applications, very largely from returned soldiers, for positions in the post office. Further, a great many of the employees of the city have returned to work; the clerical staff has returned in a body. The whole situation is so greatly improved that he purposes to leave for Ottawa to-morrow morning.


Mr. McKENZIE:: It is understood that a delegation waited upon the Prime Minister yesterday. Will the right hon. gentleman tell the House if he reached any conclusion with them?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: We spent nearly the whole day-from ten o'clock in the morning until seven o'clock in the evening -endeavouring to arrive at an arrangement which would compose the differences between the employees and employers, or, failing to arrive at an agreement, we strongly urged that the questions in difference should be submitted either to an investigation by a Royal Commission or to arbitration. There was an approach towards an agreement, but no agreement was finally

reached. A great many proposals on one side and the other were put forward, and the final result, about seven o'clock in the evening, was that the employers made a proposal in writing which, I think, was furnished to the press, and which was to be submitted by the representatives of the labour organizations to the men in Toronto. I believe it was so presented, but the men did not see fit to accept it. The chief question under discussion yesterday was the granting of a week of forty-four hours, and it was upon that question that the employers finally decided to offer arbitration. We endeavoured to have the offer accompanied with some other conditions which possibly might have made it more acceptable, but it was presented finally in the form which has been made public. I understand that a considerable number of men have gone out on strike in Toronto to-day.



JUDGES' ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Hon. Mr. Meighen, Bill No. 104, to amend the Judges' Act was read a second time, and the House went into Committee on the Bill, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-One additional judge provided for in British Columbia:
Mr. BUREAU:: Is it proposed to change the number of judges, or make a change in the salaries in British Columbia?


Arthur Meighen: There is no change made in the salaries; the Bill provides for the addition of one judge to the County Court Bench of British Columbia.


Mr. STEVENS:: Has the minister, since we last discussed the matter of judges' salaries, arrived at a decision to increase the salary of the county court judges of British Columbia which I think it was very fully demonstrated and agreed to on the former occasion, is altogether too small?
I think the Acting Minister of Justice at that time suggested that he expected the Minister of Justice would return to Canada in time to deal with the matter; but inasmuch as there seems to be no indication of the latter's return at present, I would ask the acting minister to give that phase of the question his consideration now that we have such a Bill before us as the present one and remedy what is, without any doubt, a grave injustice to those judges.


Arthur Meighen: What I stated on the occasion of the consideration of the resolution which preceded this Bill was as stated by the hon. gentleman. Since that time,

during much of which intervening period I have been absent, it transpires that the Minister of Justice will not probably be back for any substantial portion at least of this session. Consequently I feel that the responsibility is on me of making a recommendation on the subject *which the hon. gentleman has brought to my. attention. As to what the decision of the Government will be I could not now say, but I can inform the hon. gentleman that an * answer will be given him some day next week.


Mr. PULTON:: I was not present when this matter was discussed in the House a week or two ago, but I would like to support the attitude of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Stevens) in regard to it. I notice that on the former occasion it was stated that there was no discrimination so far as the salaries of the county court judges throughout the Dominion are concerned. That is true as regards the salaries of county court judges under that title, but I would like to ask the Acting Minister of Justice if it is not a fact that the judges in the province of Quebec who hold a similar position to the county court judges in the other provinces are not paid higher salaries? If I am not mistaken the Superior court judges in that province hold positions equivalent to those of county court judges in the other provinces, and are paid higher salaries than those County Court judges are. I also noticed that in the debate the other day the point was made that in the other provinces the salaries of the County Court judges are augmented by the provinces themselves. That, I think, is clear proof that the salaries are not considered adequate, and I think no member of the House would for a moment urge that a stipend of $3,000 a year is by any means suitable for a County Court judge under existing conditions. I believe that British Columbia is the only province, in the West at least, that does not add to the salaries given these judges by the Dominion Government. In considering what the salary ought to be it seems to me that the Dominion Government has nothing whatever to do with additions to judicial salaries which the provinces may make. In British Columbia up to some twenty years ago the salary was enhanced by the provincial government appointing each County Court judge a stipendary magistrate, which carried with it an additional $500. That system was done away with something like twenty years ago, and there is now only one judge in the province who receives that additional

salary. The change did not affect those judges who were acting as stipendary magistrates at the time, but was applied to those who have since been appointed.
I would strongly urge that' the question of an increase in salary for these judges be not only given consideration, but favourable consideration, by the Government.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: My hon. friend is under a misapprehension as regards the Superior Court judges of the province of Quebec. In that province we have the district of Montreal and the district of Quebec, where the judges of the Superior Court receive an annual salary of $7,000. Then there are rural districts where a judge of the Superior Court administers justice- not for one county, as in Ontario and the other English-speaking provinces, but for several counties forming one district-and they receive an annual stipend of $5,000 a year.


Frederick John Fulton: Is the jurisdiction of those judges limited in any way?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Not at all. They have even a larger jurisdiction than the judges of the Superior Court in Montreal, because in the rural districts these judges not only hear civil oases, but also cases which in that city are passed upon by the judges of the Circuit Court. They likewise hear the Criminal Court cases which in Montreal and Quebec are dealt with by the judges of the Court of King's Bench. We have no such courts as County Courts in our province.


Mr. PARDEE:: Has the Governmept
decided to increase the salaries of the County Court judges in Ontario as it has been asked to do for some considerable time?


Arthur Meighen: I have just stated in
reply to the hon. member for Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) that I -would bring the subject to the attention of Council by way of recommendation in the immediate future, and will make a statement on the subject some time next week.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am glad indeed that the Acting Minister of Justice has decided to deal with this question. When it was before us on a previous occasion I tried to make clear what my own views were on the subject, and I am not going to take up the time of the Committee by repeating them now. I do not know what the views of the minister may be as to the salary that should be paid to these judges, but in view of the fact that we are granting salaries of $6,000 and $7,000 to officials in the
Government service who are not doing any more important work than that which devolves upon the judges of the County Court, I would certainly suggest to the minister, if the suggestion is of any assistance to him, that the salaries of County Court judges should not be less than $5,000. The case of the judges in the province of British Columbia has been advanced, and in the representations on their behalf I absolutely concur. However, I have no special request to make for the judges of one province more than those of another; I think the County Court judges throughout the country should receive the same salary. I might say, though, that it has been brought to my notice that in the chief city of Manitoba, the province of the Acting Minister of Justice, the County Court judge only receives $3,000 a year, whereas in Halifax and St. John, and other large provincial centres, the County Court judges receive $3,500.
There is no reason why the leading Cbunty Court judge in the metropolitan city of Manitoba should get less than a County Court judge at Halifax or St. John. The minister will have in mind the leading County Court judge in Winnipeg. I am not acquainted with him and do not know his name, but no doubt the minister knows him well; I understand that he is a capable man and ranks favourably with those occupying similar positions in other leading cities of the Dominion.
1 submit that the Superior Court judges in all the provinces should receive the same salary. In Nova Scotia, for instance, the Superior Court judges do not get the same salary as judges performing similar duties in Quebec and Ontario. I shall not take the comparison further west; but these judges are all in the same class; they administer the same laws and exercise the same jurisdiction, and their salaries should be uniform,. The minister pointed out the other day that the difference between the salaries of some of the judges in New Brunswick and Manitoba was due to the fact that, some of them were judges of the Court of Appeal. That does not apply to Nova Scotia, because our Circuit Court judges are judges of Appeal. The province has elected that for all time the judges of the Circuit Court shall be also judges of the Court of Appeal, and as these judges are satisfactorily doing the work of both courts, tney should receive the same salary as the Superior Court judges in other provinces. It would bring about good feeling and harmony in all the courts if judges performing similar

duties throughout Canada were all treated alike.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Does my hon. friend's
proposed recommendation apply to all the provinces?


Arthur Meighen: No proposed recommendation is in being as yet. Now that the responsibility apparently cannot be taken by the minister himself, I intend to make a recommendation to Council in the premises and to make a statement to Parliament next week as to what the position is.


Mr. FIELDING:: In the discussion that took place a day or two ago in regard to the Civil Service, an hon. member laid down the rule-which seemed to be an excellent one-that if we had fewer officials and paid them better, good results would follow. Is that not a good rule to apply to the judges? L notice that, by legislation of Ontario, there is to be a considerable reduction in the number of County Court judges in that province. In this case we are proposing to increase the number of judges in British Columbia. I have not sufficient knowledge of British Columbia to offer an opinion in the matter, but it seems odd that at a time when Ontario is cutting down the number of its judges British Columbia finds it necessary to make an increase. I know the difficulty that arises owing to the jurisdiction of the provinces in the matter of the courts and the fact that the Dominion has to provide the judges and pay the bills. I know this is a layman's view and that laymen ought not to say much about these things; but there is a wide-spread opinion that the rule of having fewer officials and paying them better is a good one to apply to the judges as well as to other branches of the public service.


Arthur Meighen: I am thoroughly in agreement with my hon. friend (Mr. Fielding), so much so that I addressed a communication to the attorneys general of all the provinces, British Columbia among the others, looking to provincial legislation for reduction in the provinces. A practical response has come from Ontario in very substantial reductions, indeed. This Bill, however, provides for the filling of a vacancy created by the Legislature of British Columbia. In the northern portion of the island of Vancouver a considerable settlement has grown up, particularly in the coalbearing regions, since the previous distribution of judges was made, which cannot be adequately served by the number of judges they now have.


Mr. JACOBS:: Do these judges in British Columbia receive also surrogate and other fees, as in Ontario, in order that their salary may be brought up to some kind of a living wage? '


Arthur Meighen: I am informed that such is not the case.


Mr. MOWAT:: If the minister inquired what was the opinion of the different Bars in the province on this subject, he would find that it is in favour of a substantial increase in the emolument of judges. Until twenty years ago the senior County Court judges received $2,600 a year and the junior judges $2,000 a year. That remuneration was, perhaps, good enough for the time when people were not so luxurious and so extravagant as they are now and when the incomes of merchants and millers and other people generally wtere low. But as the incomes of the townspeople increased it was felt that the judges should be put on a par with the persons whom they would meet in a business way, socially, or otherwise. It was not deemed proper that the judge, who had the affairs of the people in his hands for adjudication, should be thought to be a man living from hand to mouth. He should be an independent person and be able to take his place socially or any other way with the best people in the community-Accordingly, about twenty years ago the salaries were raised to $3,000. But the purchasing power of a dollar is only half what it Was, and, following out. the principle upon which this remuneration was fixed years ago, we must surely increase it so that it will meet the condition brought, about by the decreased purchasing power of the dollar. I am glad that the minister received such a definite reply to his suggestion from Ontario. At the recent session of the Ontario Legislature they took away all the junior judges-whose remuneration has been $3,000, the same as the-senior judges-except in two countries, York and Wentworth, where the judges have a great deal to do. Twenty-eight junior judgeships are done away with and the positions will not be filled; but when senior judgeships become vacant the positions will be filled from these junior judgeships. This will result in a very large-saving in a few years-probably from $50,000 to $80,000. That sum might well be distributed among the seniors who are left in the different counties. A county court judge cannot at present keep up the social position which the people expect him to-keep up, nor educate his family properly,.

nor buy the necessary books to keep up with the literary and social events of the day, unless he has a salary o-f at least $5,000 a year, and I sincerely trust the Government will come to the conclusion that the remuneration of judges should not be less than that sum.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Has the minister made any appointments to judgeships in either Saskatchewan or Alberta lately? It has been brought to my notice by somebody, whose name I cannot recall at the moment, that certain judicial districts have been created by the legislature in one or the other or both of those provinces, but that no judges have been appointed, and that a great deal of hardship has been suffered in those districts on that account. It was stated that the judges who had to do the work lived so far away from where the court sat that it was difficult for them to get there, and when they got there, they were 'in a hurry to return to their own district, and that the administration of justice was suffering very much in those sections.


Arthur Meighen: The cases to which the bon. member refers have been brought to my notice; indeed, they existed prior to my assuming the duties of Acting Minister of Justice. They were subsisting while the minister himself was here. I have not made a recommendation as to filling the vacancies; indeed, I have made no recommendation as to filling any judicial vacancy in Canada. It may be that concurrently with the consideration of the salary question, I shall have to give consideration also to filling these vacancies. The reason why I did not make a recommendation was this. I certainly was not convinced that the provincial Government, say of Saskatchewan, would not be able by a readjustment of judicial districts so to provide that the present bench could render efficient service. I addressed a letter accordingly to the Attorney General, but I have not been informed of any action having been taken. There is no doubt at all that the Attorney General of the province would be in a much better position than I to judge as to the feasibility of my suggestion. I fear that his attitude is unfavourable.


Mr. DEVLIN:: Has the department any intention of increasing the salaries of judges of the Superior Court of Quebec? This question has been mooted for a number of years, and the excuse always given was
the necessity of first adjusting the salaries of judges of the county courts of Ontario; and it was stated that when that was done the Government or the department intended to take up the question as regards Superior Court judges. Many of these judges are earning far less than civil servants and they are not able to keep up with the dignity of the position. In many instances they are barely able to make both ends meet, and that is not in accord with the positions they hold as they.should be far above all possibilty of want, because they have very serious duties to perform. I hope the minister has the question under consideration.


Arthur Meighen: The discussion opened with a contrast drawn by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Fulton) between the salaries of judges in Quebec and those of judges in other provinces. He pointed out that Superior Court judges in Quebec received $5,000 while county court judges in other provinces received $3,000. There is, however, a difference in jurisdiction, but there is in Quebec really no bench corresponding in jurisdiction and certainly no bench corresponding in salary with the county, or district court bench, as it may be called, of the other provinces. I have not progressed with the subject far enough to say that I have reached any intention at all. The whole subject has to be considered as one-a Dominion wide subject.
Referring to the observations of the hon. member for Parkdale (Mr. Mowat) as to the opinion of the Bar of Canada, I have received from members of the Bar and from Bar associations, resolutions large in number and influential in signatures, all in favour of a substantial increase to judges. That body of opinion has left no doubt in the mind of the department as to what it considers should be done. I can only add that as yet I have not received any favourable resolutions from Grain Growers' associations or from the Labour Temple.


Samuel William Jacobs: May I bring to the attention of the minister a matter which arises out of the discussion this afternoon with regard to increasing judges' salaries? I trust that some of the Quebec judges-1 do not know about judges in the other provinces-will see their way clear towards rendering judgment within say three or four years after a case has been placed before them for decision. This is a matter which ought to engage the attention of the Department of Justice. The delays in the matter of handing down judgments have almost approached a scandal. I confess that

when I see the judgments over which some judges have been spending so much time, I am mystified as to the long delays. Within the last few years there have been made to the bench appointments of several men who probably consider that they have been placed there simply as pensioners, because little is ever done by these gentlemen to see that speedy judgments are handed down. I speak about this matter advisedly, and while probably I am somewhat out of order, I hope that bringing this matter to the attention of the Committee will make some of these judges understand that they are, after all, servants of the public, as other people in the Civil Service are, and that they must do their duty as other employees in the Government service do.


Mr. PROULX:: I do not think the position of judges is as lamentable as was stated by some hon. members this afternoon and the other day. A judge, besides receiving a salary while on the bench, can, after a certain number of years, get a retiring allowance. After fifteen years, he can retire on an allowance equal to two-thirds of his salary, and after twenty or twenty-five years, on an allowance equal to his salary. If one looks through the judges' accounts, one will find that there are in this country quite a few retired judges receiving large retiring allowances, some $8,000, some $7,000 and some less. There is a provision in the law that if a judge, through physical disability becomes incapable of discharging the duties of his office he is entitled to receive a liberal allowance, amounting in some cases to two-thirds of his salary and at least to one-half. We must also take into consideration the fact that judges are not liable for income tax, while members of other professions are. Therefore, the Acting Minister of Justice should take these things into consideration when he receives recommendations to increase judges' salaries. The cost of living to-day is so high that everybody is asking for an increase in salary, but there would be no necessity for increasing salaries if the Government took measures to lower the cost of living. Some of the civil servants have been granted an increase in salary; too much, I think. The Government has appointed a commission to re-classify the Service, and should have awaited their report before raising the salaries of the deputy ministers, because if the report finds their salaries too high the Government would find it rather difficult to decrease them. I hope that the Committee which has been appointed to inquire

into the cost of living will bring about a reduction in the cost of living, and if that is the result the salaries which we have paid to the judges since 1905 would then be sufficient, and the country would save the large amount involved in this proposed increase.


Mr. TOLMIE:: As a layman representative from British Columbia, I wish to endorse heartily the suggestion that the salaries of the County Court and other judges be adequately increased. When we take into consideration the importance of the position which the judges occupy and the heavy responsibilities that rest on their shoulders, I think it is highly dangerous for us to allow these men to go on living from hand to mouth. I think their salaries should be so increased as to put them on a footing where they could hold their own in a social way.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I have just been reminded that it was in 1905 that substantial increases were made in the salaries of the judges. I was in the House then, but I really forget whether the judges of the Supreme Court of Canada received an increase at that time. I have been informed that they did not. I think it is only fair that the minister should bear these judges in mind when dealing with salary increases.


Samuel William Jacobs: I suppose there is no danger of the judges going on strike for an increase.


Mr. BURNHAM:: It seems to me that the reason for this application for an increase in salary is sound, because recompense or pay is given for the purpose of allowing the recipient to maintain the struggle for existence. That being the case, it logically follows that when the struggle for existence becomes more intense the pay should increase, and that applies to every branch of industry, to the workingman and the professional man. If this is not done, we must have unrest even among the judges; if the unrest becomes acute it becomes a riot; if it becomes more acute still and the struggle more intense, it becomes a revolution. We must surely expect to observe the common logic of facts. If pay, therefore, is a reasonable recompense the pay must be increased as the struggle for existence becomes more intense.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: I understand that on
several occasions the Acting Minister of Justice has had drawn to his attention the case of the King's Bench judges in the province of Manitoba, who, I am informed,

are not getting the same salaries as the judges in other provinces doing the same class of work. I understand that the minister is considering their case, and I should like to ask whether action will be taken by the Government to put these judges on the same basis as judges in other provinces doing the same work.


Samuel William Jacobs: In Manitoba, they rely
on Royal Commissions.


Arthur Meighen: No action has as yet
been taken, but in the general consideration their case will have a place in the front rank.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I observe that the minister from Nova Scotia (Mr. A. K. Maclean) and the Acting Minister of Justice are sitting together, and I would point out that there is a vacancy in the judiciary of district No. 6 in the province of Nova Scotia, the County Court judge having died a good many months ago. This is a large district with a good deal of work and the judge from Pictou, I think, has had to be recalled to this district. As this appointment must be made, I think the sooner it is made the better.


Arthur Meighen: It is one of about seven appointments that are waiting.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Acting Minister of Justice) moved that the amendment made by the Senate to Bill No. 81, to amend the Interpretation Act, be concurred in. He said:
The Senate merely provides that the term " Superior Court '' when used with reference to British Columbia means the Court of Appeal and also the Supreme Court of that province. That point was not covered in the original Bill. Otherwise, the Bill is as before.
Motion agreed to, and amendment concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Civil Government-Department of Agriculture-salaries, including Dairy and Cold Storage Commissioner at $5,000, Seed Commissioner at $5,000, Director of Experimental Farms at $4,000, Live Stock Commissioner at $3,600, and Dominion Entomologist at $3,600, $465,737.50.
["In 1913 or about that\ntime, when the hon. Secretary of 'State (Mr. Burrell) was Minister of Agriculture, we used to discuss the advisability of establishing not altogether demonstration farms but small farms for the development of agriculture. The idea was that some of the $10,000,000 set apart for the development of the industry could be utilized in 'buying small farms in the neighbourhood of industrial centres, say, for instance, near the steel works in the county from which I come, where there are thousands of farmers' sons, and men from Ireland, England and Scotland who make marvellous developments of little bits of land about their houses. I-t was thought that if the Government could establish thirty or forty or even twenty small farms of between twenty-five and forty acres each, with house and barn, and give a small start in the way of developing these farms, and then sell them, men would be very anxious and willing to go in for the scheme. The idea has been developed in the West by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I understand they have built houses on certain sections of land; and they sell not only the bare land but the houses and barns and some equipment. In that way they have given a great boom to agriculture in that part of the country. We have in Nova Scotia millions of acres that are unoccupied, and it is not unusual to find a man owning four or five hundred acres and living on it with his wife, being able to scratch a bare living out of perhaps five per cent of the land. That land to which I refer could be used to great advantage if people could be found to take an interest in agriculture, and I am sure the Government would lose no money if they undertook this project. All they need is courage and enterprise, and they would find these little farms would be successful and would give a fresh impetus to agriculture. It was thought in the early days that the thing would be practicable, and there was some co-operation between the honourable gentleman (Mr. Burrell) and the Minister of Agriculture for Nova Scotia. Some start was made in the buying of old farms but the matter was not looked after properly and nothing of importance has really been done. What is absolutely e* sential for the development of the country is that it shall be a place in which the ordinary man can live in comfort, and the only way in which that can be achieved is to encourage the farmer to produce and enable him to sell at reasonable prices. The only advantage to the farmer is the profit he makes, and if he can make a large\nprofit it is better for the country. He may make a fair profit on a small quantity, but if he can make a proportionate profit on large quantities of produce there is a beneficial result all round. It is absolutely necessary for the Department of Agriculture to make a departure from the rut in which we have been moving for the last twenty-five years, and to show what can be done along these lines. I have no particular line to indicate to the minister, but I have suggested what might be done in the neighbourhood of large centres. I have spoken of Cape Breton because I know men there who are ready to take hold of these little farms if they are put within their reach. They have not the means themselves to buy lands and put up houses, but if they were helped up to that stage they would jump at the proposition. The market is there and they could sell their produce, and there are young men from the Old Country who are enterprising enough to do very well if they were given a start. Another thing I might point out is the desirability of encouraging the extension of tram cars that are in touch with agricultural land so as to encourage the farmer. Companies might be encouraged to push their lines into the country. These things cost money, but the minister in charge of the department must have courage to depart from the old line and not hesitate to spend money abundantly so long as good results can be obtained. We want to make 'Canada produce something proportionate to its capacity for production.\nMr. iLEiMIEUX: In connection with the distribution of literature, I have noticed that literature is printed in both languages and when any one applies to the department he can get either French or English copies. I want to inform the minister-and this can be confirmed by the deputy minister-that the best agent of the department in my province is the cure, who is generally the honorary president and sometimes the secretary of what we call the Circles Agricoles. There is one in every county, and sometimes one in every parish, and in the pulpit on nearly every 'Sunday of the year in these rural districts the cure will spend a portion of his time speaking to the farmers on agricultural matters.\nI would like my hon. friend to send the literature which is issued by the department in French-not all, but the most essential bulletins-to the cures of the province of Quebec, so as to secure their devotion to the cause. Because the great issue of the day is the necessity of getting our", "people back to the land and improving living conditions in the rural districts. I have offered these remarks now because unfortunately, I shall not be able to be present this evening.\nMr. 'CRERAR:\tI can say to the hon.\ngentleman that the suggestion which he has made will be acted upon.\nAt six o'clock the House resumed and took recess.\nAfter Kecess.\nThe House resumed at eight o'clock."]
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Can the minister give
the Committee any sort of horoscope as to
the future development of agriculture in this country, especially as regards a greater interest in farming and a desire for increased production? Does he find on the part of the people a tendency to stay on the farms or are they drifting away?


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Agriculture) :: I have never been any good at casting horoscopes, and I do not care to venture into that field now. The question raised by the hon. leader of the Opposition is, of course, an important one, but I cannot give, with any degree of accuracy, the number of people that have left the farms in Canada during the past year, or the number of those who have taken up farming. At present there is some difficulty in certain parts of Canada in securing an adequate supply of farm labour. This, I think, is due perhaps to the natural unrest that has ensued from the trying experiences through which the country has passed during the last four years. Generally speaking, agriculturaTconditions throughout Canada are good at the present time. A brief survey of agricultural results for the past year shows that in the Western Provinces the crop has suffered from drought and frost. However, with the abundant optimism characteristic of the Prairie Provinces, the farmers have settled down to work, and according to the most reliable information I have been able to obtain, there has been planted this year a larger acreage in cereals than was the case even last year, and I am very happy to say that the crops in Western Canada this spring have been planted in better condition than for several years past. We had an abundance of moisture practically all over the Prairie Provinces, and the prospects at the time of seeding and immediately after were excellent. Of course, our final crop returns will depend almost entirely on weather conditions during June and July. There is not such a fortunate condition of affairs in Ontario. There has been a great deal of rain in this province, and there have been difficulties in getting seeding completed, so that on the whole the situation is somewhat backward. However, it is not too much to hope that we may have good returns from Ontario and Quebec. Conditions in the Maritime Provinces are very good as far as we can gather.


Rodolphe Lemieux: We largely increased our production last year in Quebec.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, that is true as regards Quebec. A fine effort was made to

increase production there last year and good results were obtained. The conditions for the future are of course somewhat unsettled, as I have already stated; but there is every indication that excellent markets will be found for all our agricultural products for the next couple of years, at any rate.


Samuel William Jacobs: And at fair prices?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At good prices. I do not know whether I have looked into the horoscope sufficiently to satisfy the leader of the Opposition, but I trust this information will be of some benefit.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I was pleased to get this information from the hon. minister. .We have no opportunity in the House of hearing any opinions from the Minister of Agriculture except when he comes with his Estimates, and I have always felt, as I feel now, that the prominence is not given in this House to the Agricultural Department that it is entitled to and should always have had. I put my questions not with any intention of embarrassing the minister but merely to give him an opportunity of dealing with his department and
4 p.m. giving the people to understand that its importance is duly recognized. When we have any questions be fore us in connection with agriculture and farmers generally we are dealing with a large and important subject which is at the very foundation of the prosperity of the country, and the more prominence we give to agriculture and the more attention it receives at our hands, the more readily will the farmer or the man who intends going on the farm be impressed with the importance of rural life and the fact that he is engaging in an industry which the members of this House realize as vital to the prosperity of the nation. This was my object in drawing out the minister as to what has been done and the prospects of agricultural life in Canada for the years to come.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I think the minister
understands the necessity for greater and more scientific agricultural production in the future. All the financial and economic authorities who have lately given their views as regards present conditions in Canada have insisted on the fact that what is needed is greater production The chief industry of Canada is above all farming. This is a great farming community and the more we can attract the people to

country life the more wo shall do in the way of restoring the country to a basis of sound economy and prosperity. There must be more production along scientific lines. Although I am not much over the fifty-year mark, there has been in my day and generation quite a change in the method of agriculture. I shall not speak for other sections of the country, but the section with which I am most familiar. Even in the constituency of Gaspe, where the people are fishermen and farmers simultaneously, I have noticed during the last twenty years a change for the better in agricultural methods. This, I am pleased to say, is due in a large degree to the very progressive education given our farmers by the Department of Agriculture in Quebec, and also, I must say, by the officials of the Department of Agriculture at Ottawa. I do not know how the other provinces regard the lectures given to farmers, but speaking for my constituency of Gaspe I can say that the people are always pleased to meet the lecturers sent by .the Department of Agriculture and that they quietly, without any great demonstration, adopt the methods suggested by the lecturers. In addition to this, the small experimental farms, not to speak of the largest, have produced the best results. If there is one expenditure to which the minister should commit himself more in the future, it is for the multiplication of these small farms.
I have in my mind especially the recommendations made by Professor Robertson in the report of the Commission on Technical Education. These latter recommendations have been published in pamphlet form and I have found them very instructive indeed. If I had any advice to offer my hon. friend it would be to try and live up to the recommendations made by Professor Robertson. I must compliment the Department of Agriculture in Ottawa upon having given to the district to which I belong politically-the district of Quebec- the magnificent experimental farm located in the constituency of my hon. friend from Kamouraska (Mr. Lapointe). The agricultural school at St. Anne de la Pocatiere is a Quebec institution and a very progressive one, but, since its establishment at the request of my hon. friend from Kamouraska, the Government has supplemented the work of that school by the establishment of an experimental farm and, following the establishment of the farm, there have been exhibitions every year which would be of interest even to the farmers of the other provinces of Canada.

While I am in a laudatory mood, might I not congratulate sincerely the Minister of Agriculture upon the appointment which he has made of the Deputy Minister of Agriculture. I must be frank, sincere and honest in my appreciation of the good work accomplished by the Department of Agriculture. The farmers who sit in this House and the farmers in the country-at least the farmers in our part of the country- appreciate the great work which was done some years ago by the Hon. Sydney Fisher. He changed completely the complexion of the department and gave to it a very high standing in the country. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Crerar) enjoys to a large degree the confidence of the public because, as we know, he is a farmer and he is proud of it. In the appointment of his officials he has done the right thing in making them without regard to political considerations. He has appointed Mr. Grisdale and I have noticed that in the press and on both sides of politics that appointment has been hailed as a progressive step. Mr. Grisdale has had a long experience. He is known throughout Canada. He is a modest, humble official but stern and sturdy in the discharge of his official duties. He has another great advantage which we cannot ignore. He speaks both languages fluently. How can you expect to reach the different farming communities in the different provinces if the officers of the department cannot be understood in the literature which they send out to every section of the country or in the lectures which they deliver to their farming audiences? By appointing Mr. Grisdale you have appointed the best officer in the department to a position which he will fill, we know, with great profit to the country. Besides, any farmer from my province can come to him, speak in his own language and be answered and understood as if he were speaking to one of his own fellow countrymen. I congratulate my hon. friend on this appointment. I hope that under Mr. Grisdale the department will continue the traditions established by the predecessor of my hon. friend the Hon. Sydney Fisher, who was really the friend of the farmer.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I (quite appreciate the suggestion made by the hon. the leader of the Opposition (Mr. McKenzie) respecting a survey of agricultural conditions in Canada. I might perhaps, at the risk of wearying the Committee a little bit, give some more information on that subject. The fact is patent that almost all of our agricultural produce has its price fixed in
the outside markets of the world. There is scarcely any agricultural products produced in Canada that we are not exporting to some extent. I find that the total value of these exports for the year ended March 31, 1919 was almost $400,000,000. I quite believe that that amount iB capable of great expansion. Unfortunately, there are many districts in Canada where there is a lack of appreciation on the part of the farmers of the value of management in their business and of quality in their production. We enjoy to-day, for instance, in the markets of Great Britain the first position in so far as our bacon exports are concerned.


Mr. McMASXER:: Even better than Denmark?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Even better than Denmark. That is due to the type of bacon hog that is produced in Canada. We also have the premier position in Great Britain with respect to our cheese industry, the foundation of which was laid many years ago by Dr. Robertson who has done much excellent work for agriculture in Canada.
I have endeavoured on all occasions to impress upon Canadian farmers the importance of quality in their production. Particularly is there need for that in regard to the quality of the beef that we export to the European market. I was surprised to learn from the representatives of the British Ministry of Food that Canadian beef was regarded as inferior to the article imported from Argentina and the United States. We have had within the past year, several conferences with representatives of the Canadian breeders and live stock men's associations. This problem with others has been discussed with them and we have taken every possible means to impress upon, and to bring home to them, the importance of this .matter, and I think this has resulted in a quickened interest in it.
There is no reason why Canada, having in mind its geographical location, should not attain a very high place indeed in agriculture. We are closer to the European markets, and especially the great consuming market of the United Kingdom, than any other country outside of Europe, and the trade routes by which our produce reaches those markets traverse the temperate zone. When one considers that a vessel can make three trips from Canada to Liverpool in the time required for one trip from Melbourne to Liverpool, and two trips from Canada to Liverpool in the time consumed by a trip from Buenos Aires to Liverpool, our advantage in that respect is readily seen.


Andrew Ross McMaster: With reference to the .conferences concerning beef production, what is the reason for the inferiority of our position as compared to the Argentine and the United States?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Argentine dressed carcases of beef will probably average eight hundred to. eight hundred and fifty pounds, whereas those of Canada will run from six hundred to six hundred and fifty pounds per carcass. Those from the United States are somewhere in between those figures.


Andrew Ross McMaster: Is there any difference in the quality of the meat?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The quality improves with the weight of the carcass. As I say, the matter has been receiving attention, and, as it is a question of breeding the right kind of stock, the remedy is a very simple one.
>1 was alluding to the advantages which Canada possesses in respect to the British market; I was about to allude also to the advantages, the growing advantages, which we enjoy in regard to the market to the south of us. There is, at the present time, every evidence that the industrial expansion and development in the United States will be in a greater ratio hereafter than its agricultural development; and respecting some agricultural products it would appear that already the United States is approaching the position of being an importing country. When that time comes Canada will occupy a splendid position in respect of these markets; and I think that in the United States in the next twenty-five years -indeed even in the next ten years-we will see a great consuming market growing up for such of our agricultural products as cheese, butter, milk, honey, and meat of various kinds, and also cereals.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Provided the tariff is no bar?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Always provided, of course, that no unnatural barrier will be raised against our products.


Andrew Ross McMaster: I remember some years ago looking into the question of cheese importations by the United States. At that time, and I presume there are now, unless the war has changed the situation, tremendous importations into the republic to the South of what I think are called fancy cheeses-cheeses that come from Switzerland, Italy and other countries, and are somewhat different from the ordinary cheese. It struck me at that time that there was a tremendous field for Canadian en-
EMr. Crerar.]
deavour in the manufacture and exportation to the American market of fancy cheeses, and I would like to know whether the Government has looked into this matter, and what steps, if any, it has taken to encourage the production of fancy cheeses in Canada.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That matter has been receiving the attention of the department. I am not much of a connoisseur in cheese, if I might apply the term to that article, but I may say that we are making, for instance, at the Central Experimental Farm in this city, one of the best fancy cheeses produced in America. The cheeses to which the hon. gentleman alludes are imported from Europe; some people have a fancy for eating Swiss, Dutch, or Canadian cheese, as the case may be. Personally, I have never been able to see very much difference between them.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend was speaking of dressed beef. Let us return to the animal itself. With reference to the embargo in Great Britain on Canadian cattle, I notice that some papers in the United Kingdom are referring to it occasionally and are asking the British authorities to lift that embargo, which has been a sort of a stigma against Canadian cattle. My hon. friend probably knows the merits of the question better than I do. He knows that for years the British authorities have ordered our cattle to be slaughtered at the landing ports in the United Kingdom, practically at Liverpool, under the pretext that they were diseased and suffering from pleuro-pneumonia. It has been established beyond a doubt, however, that our cattle are absolutely free from that disease, and if my hon. friend wants the best available evidence on the subject, I might refer him to the testimony of the late Sir Charles Tupper. I must say to the credit of the old Conservative chieftain that while he was our High Commissioner in London he waged a bonny fight for Canada on that question. He states in his memoirs how on several occasions he approached the Board of Trade in England in order to have the embargo removed, and he offered to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the excuse given by the British authorities for the exclusion of Canadian cattle was in the nature of a very flimsy pretext. Being a medical man himself who, in his day, was renowned as a practitioner, he even went so far as to present himself at the abattoirs in Liverpool where, removing his coat and rolling up his shirt sleeves, his hands dripping with the blood of the animal, he made tests which proved beyond

contradiction that the excuse given by the British authorities for the embargo was no excuse at all. However, nothing was done to meet the wishes of Canada, and the agitation for the lifting of the embargo went on for years. Finally the question was brought up when the Imperial Conferences began to be held, and I have noticed that the question was raised on the occasion of each of these .conferences in London. It was brought up first by Sir Charles Tupper, then by the late Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and finally, if I mistake not, by the present Prime Minister. It appears that a few months ago the enforcement of the embargo was a lively question in the Old Country, and my attention has been directed to the fact that certain of the press of the United Kingdom are now asking the British authorities to lift it. Were any steps taken during the Prime Minister's stay in London with a view to carrying out this policy, which appeals to every true Canadian and to every cattle-raiser in Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The restriction was imposed on Canadian cattle about twenty-five years ago.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Thirty years ago.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The alleged reason was the existence of pleuro-pneumonia in Canadian herds. The evidence was supposed to rest upon the case of one particular animal that was said to have had the disease when it landed at Liverpool. It is very clear, however, that the disease did not exist in Canada. Nevertheless, an embargo was placed upon Canadian cattle, and it has remained in force ever since, despite the efforts that have been made to have it removed. I am not familiar with the steps that were taken to this end by the Government of the late Sir Wilfrid Laurier-


Rodolphe Lemieux: By every Government.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. I am not thoroughly familiar with the steps that were taken, but I do know that at the Imperial Conference in 1917 the matter was brought up, and it was brought up again last year. Dr. Robertson went overseas last June in a representative capacity for the Department of Agriculture to look into the food situation and to gather what inforrnation he could as to future food prospects generally and as to how Canada could best co-operate in assisting the Allies. I asked him at that time to assist the Prime Minister who was then in Great Britain, to bring this matter in the proper way before the British authorities. That was done. Dr. Robertson again went
188J
over with the Prime Minister when he left Canada last year to attend the Peace Conference. We had gathered all the data and information that we could in Canada bearing upon the matter, and he has been active in taking the matter up with the British authorities since that time. In February we sent to Great Britain the Live Stock Commissioner for Canada to supply any additional information that might be required. Various breeders were interviewed and everything possible was done to remove the misconception existing in the minds of many British stockmen with regard to the probability of this disease or any other disease coming from Canada. I think we were able to convince them that Canada, has a clean bill of health in regard to her live stock. I venture the assertion that there is no country in the world which guards the health of animals more carefully than Canada does. The matter is at present under consideration. All I can say is that we are hopeful that something will be done and that these markets may be opened up to us, at least in some degree, ot as they were prior to the imposition of the embargo.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has my hon. friend any idea of the amount of the total export from Canada?


Mr. P. R. McGIBBON:: I have been
keeping in touch with the minister and his work during the year and 1 find that we have the right man in the right place. There is every reason to say that he has been doing good work. The experimental farms, large and small, are doing good work. There is a small one in the county which I represent; it is well situated and furnishes much useful information. The officials at that experimental farm station give instructions upon the cultivation of com, grain and potatoes and information with regard to different kinds of soil, and so on. It is a great benefit to the county, and I wish the minister would do even a little more in the way of improving it. The farm is easy of access-a good gravel road leads to it-but we are wanting a little in equipment; we want better tools and machinery. A farm needs a lot of machinery; it is about as easy to equip a mill as it is to equip a farm with the right machinery. A great deal of the unrest that prevails in this country is due to the fact that not enough of us are on the farm. The farm will have to be made more attractive; the work will have to be made a little easier. With the assistance of the Government a

great deal can be done in a few years along this line. The present minister has had two or three years' experience; he is still a young man, and I would be sorry to see [DOT]him drop out. I hope that the reports in [DOT]the press that he is about to resign are not true. Although we differ in politics, yet I can say that he is doing his best for the farming interests of the country. The farmers have never been attended to as they should be. This country has been throwing bouquets in .the way of titles to exploiters, the railroad men, the financiers. It, is true that some dropped on good soil, but some certainly dropped on stony ground. I have yet to hear of the farmer who received a title, although many farmers have richly earned them. Farmers have spent half a lifetime in securing the best seed wheat that could be produced [DOT]and sending it among the farmers, thus assisting in the raising of enormous crops in three western provinces. In this part of the country men have spent a lifetime perfecting stock-horses, cattle, cows, pigs, sheep, and everything that belongs to the farm; yet I do not see that the Government has thrown titles on any of their shoulders. I am sorry that titles are cut out, so far as that goes, because I would like to see some conferred upon the farmers.


Andrew Ross McMaster: They do not want
them.


Peter Robert McGibbon: Farming is the great industry of Canada. We can go ahead with manufacturing and railroading, but farming is the backbone of any country. As the county that I represent is composed principally of farmers I hope that the Government will keep to their good course and do all they can to encourage the farming industry,
In .my judgment, the high cost of produce is the principal cause of strikes in this country, because a man's salary will not buy suitable clothes, provisions and food for himself and his family. We must, therefore, reduce the price of provisions, and the only way to do that is for more of us to go on, the land, to cultivate the soil and to produce. We have in Canada one of the greatest countries the sun shines on and we may be proud of the country we inherit. We have in Canada sufficient land for a hundred million people. I have been informed that in the Peace river district there is room for thousands upon thousands of people, and that one can find there the very best of farming land. Settlers can go into that district for the

next fifty years and yet there will be room. It is a district that is not nearly as cold as Manitoba or some of the other western provinces. We should cut out politics and get to farming, as it is the only thing that is going to save this country.


Mr. BOYCE:: I intended to say a few words before my hon. friend (Mr. P. E. McGibbon) took the floor, but he has said every thing so well and so favourably to the cause of the farmers that he has left me with very little to say. I do not know whether he is a farmer or not, but if he is a farmer, I am sure he is a good one. He is, at least, a very good speaker on the subject, and he has put our cause in a very nice form. My hon. friend (Mr. Lemieux), who, I understand, is a lawyer, has shown some familiarity with a topic of interest to farmers.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am a farmer also.


George Boyce: To hear the hon. member, I think he would be a very good one. The farming community of Canada is at the present time in a favourable position as regards the minister who now presides over the Department of Agriculture. We have a fine, practical Minister of Agriculture, and I think it would be hard to get any one to equal him. Further than that, he has a deputy who is well known throughout this Dominion -and who has endeared himself to the farming community by his practical knowledge of agriculture. I refer to Professor Grisdale, a man whom I am pleased to say I have 'known for many years. He knows all the ins and outs of the farmers' requirements as well as, if not better than, any other man in Canada or possibly in any other country. Canada has been very fortunate in her choice of officials in regard to agriculture, and we need such officials now more than at any other time in our history. During the last few years, farmers have had difficulties like all other people, but I think we have suffered more than people of any other calling. It seems probable, moreover, that we are going to suffer some hardships this year on account of the backwardness of the season and of having so much rain that we can hardly get our crops in. But it is the duty of every one, no matter what his calling may be, to co-operate with the rest of the community and use his best efforts to make our soil produce as much as possible. Nothing but agricultural production will enable us to get rid of the tremendous burden of public debt which has accumulated. Agriculture is the

backbone of this country and as one who has been a farmer all his life I have no hesitation in saying that if this country were farmed as it should be, the land at present under cultivation would produce over a hundred per cent more than it does now. If we also take into account the many millions of acres the plough has not yet touched what will be the result? Not long ago, I was out West and every four or five miles there was an elevator. Not one of these elevators was built for fun; they were built to hold grain, and when they are full the returns to this country will, I am sure, surprise every one. A year or two of good crops in this Canada of ours would nearly wipe out the national debt. The money may not go as revenue direct to the Government, but it will go to individuals. We shall have the money, and when we have the money, the country will be the richer by that amount. I am glad that we have live men at the head of the Department of Agriculture, because we require live men and men who have an interest in the work and welfare of the country and I have no doubt that those men will use their efforts to the best advantage of Canada.


Mr. TURIGEON:: My purpose in rising is to let it be understood that the appreciation of the Minister of (Agriculture (Mr. iCrerar) and of his deputy is not confined to the provinces of Quebec, and Ontario. Coming from New Brunswick, a province in whidh there are the two races and languages, I may say that the reputation of the minister is as high there as it is in Quebec. During the last few years the farmers of New Brunswick have taken new heart in their industry and have doubled their production. The deputy minister is also well known in the district from which I come, to the French Acadians as well as to the Scotch, Irish and English, and I am sure the new appointment meets with their approval and good wishes, and that it will encourage the farming community in that section of Canada.
Some years ago, just before the Liberal party went out of power, I had been in hopes of having an experimental farm established at Petit Rocher which would be a central part for all the people of northern New Brunswick, from the Matapedia district to the Miramichi.
We have along these ehores shipping facilities, wharfs, breakwaters and harbours by which steamer communication would be established with the other side of Bay des Chaleurs. Besides railway connections there
is in that portion of the country the best and most improved highway in the province and one that is second to none in Canada. An experimental farm of modest dimensions could be established to start with, and I am sure it could be very rapidly extended.
I would ask the Minister of Agriculture to take note of my remarks and to see during the recess, whether it be short or long, what he can do in the matter in the interest of the farmers of northern 'New Brunswick. Farming is the basic industry of this country. In the early days of the session, I brought to the attention of the Government the necessity of readjusting the tariff so as to encourage the farming community before seeding commenced.
If that had been done, the labour situation would have been bettered and there would not be the unrest there is throughout the country to-day. To-day, again, I urge the Minister of Agriculture to take my remarks into consideration. He knows that I am with him in his desire to advance the interests of the farming industry, not only in the West but in the East as well.
I can assure him that the farmers of the East are in harmony with the farmers of the West in their aspirations and in their economic views, and there is no danger of a cleavage between the people of the East and the people of the West. The only place in Canada where there is a cleavage is in Central Canada, where the unrest prevails to-day. We hope before long that unrest will be settled.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I appreciate very much the remarks that have been made expressing satisfaction with the appointment of the deputy minister. It was to me, personally, a source of much satisfaction that I was able to prevail on Dr. Grisdale to accept this position. I think he knows agriculture generally throughout Canada better than any other man-at all events better than any other man I have met.
With regard to the policy of the department in making appointments, we are following wherever possible the principle oi promotion within the department rather than going outside for officials. I think that principle is sound in every respect and encourages those within the department, no matter what their position may be, to put forth their best efforts.
The hon. member for Argenteuil (Mr. McGibbon) dwelt on the importance of experimental farms as a means of agricultural education. I quite agree that the experimental and demonstration farms are one of the best means of bringing home to

our farmers the advantages of better methods of cultivation and production generally. It must be borne in mind, however, that these farms, as their names imply, are largely experimental. We have in Canada to-day, outside of the Central Experimental Farm at Ottawa, 20 experimental farms and stations, 3 tobacco stations, 7 sub-experimental farms or substations as we call them, and 44 illustration farms. I look to the development of the illustration farm as perhaps the best means of bringing within the reach of the average farmer a knowledge of better methods of cultivation and general improvement in agricultural methods. These illustration farms are worked on the -following plan. A district is Selected and examined, and one of the best -farmers of the district who is willing to undertake the work is asked to associate himself with the work of the experimental farms. A certain plot o-f -his land is set apart, and he cultivates this plot under the direction and supervision of the representative of the department, who visits him at stated periods. In Western Canada last fall, in- the drought-stricken area, we had one or two striking illustrations of the value of this work, particularly as to the effect of proper soil cultivation on the retention of moisture in the soil, with consequent greater production. That work is being actively carried on. The purely experimental farm is, of course, of great value, but the illustration- farm can at a small -expense be brought within the reach of almost every farmer.
There is another point, and a very important one. It is a conclusion I have reached as the result of my experience in the department and of the study I have been able to -give the subject generally. There is expended in Canada through the Federal and Provincial Departments of Agriculture approximately $7,500,000 annually. I am convinced that from the national point of view -we are not getting the results from that expenditure that might be secured. In my judgment, there should be closer co-operation and better co-ordination between the federal and provincial activities. I found on making inquiries that in many cases federal and provincial activities were overlapping-that both federal and provincial departments were in- certain cases carrying on the same line of work. Now that is a waste of effort, and I might add also, a waste of money. At this particular time, when our national expenditure is mounting very rapidly, and we shall have to face in the future heavy taxation

and probably difficulties in raising the necessary revenue it is of the greatest importance, not only in the field of -agriculture, hut in every other field, that -there -should be the closest co-operation and coordination between federal and provincial activities. I have already mentioned this matter to a few provincial ministers of agriculture, and they were quite sympathetic to the idea. This is an important matter, and I -hope it will be more fully inquired into during this year.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What were the total exports of cattle last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The total exports of cattle last year, according to the figures supplied me by the Statistical Department, amounted to over 300,000 head.
Mr. M-cMASTER: On the hoof?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Mr. ROBB:: 
Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, he was not.


James Alexander Robb: Mr. Alexander was chairman, and I understood Mr. Ballantyne was on the committee in an advisory capacity. But it makes no difference. These gentlemen, taking advantage of what they knew was going to happen, wired to their agents in Western Canada and bought up all the butter held by the factories in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and partly in Alberta, before the advance in price. Immediately in the United States prices began to go up. Milk and cream were on the free list, and the farmers along the international line and quite a distance away from the line discovered that they could sell their milk in the United States at $3.55 on a 3 per cent butter-fat basis, which worked out at .about $4.05 for extra good milk per 100 pounds. As against that, the price at which it was commandeered in Canada would give them from $1.75 to $2.05 and very naturally the flow of milk started to the United States. When the Government discovered this they placed an embargo on milk and cream, going into the United States, so that .this condition obtained for the month of October and part of November, and if I mistake not it was February before the embargo was totally raised. My friends from the western provinces who year in and year out have told us of the greater prices that have prevailed in the	Minneapolis market for wheat
can	very well	understand how the
eastern dairyman felt when he discovered that his neighbour across the line was receiving from $1 to $1.50 per 100 pounds more for milk than he was. When the farmer discovered that he could not ship his milk or cream owing to the embargo he decided to sell his cow, and that largely explains the great increase in the exports in cattle into the United States from all parts of Canada, and explains also why the cities to-day are suffering, or at any rate did suffer all winter.


George Boyce: Does the hon. member mean to say that milk .sold for $4 per 100 pounds?


James Alexander Robb: It sold at $3.55 on a 3 per cent butter-fat basis, and for better milk it ran as high as $4.05. If my hon.
5 p.m. friend has any doubt whatever I can show him the official figures.


George Boyce: I shall be glad to see them later, because I cannot for a moment see how the price could be $4.05 for milk in Canada. That would be over $1 for butter.


James Alexander Robb: That was in the United States, and I venture to say the minister will not contradict this statement. Now Mt. Chairman, that is one way in whioh this Government was "encouraging" greater production and helping the farming industry. I submit to the minister that the sooner he removes all these restrictions from the products of the farm the better it will be for this country. We cannot improve farming and encourage greater production by penalizing the farmer. The farmer is just as intelligent as the man in the city, and when he reads that the produce dealers in the cities have taken advantage of the action of this Government to advance prices while his products are kept low it naturally makes him sore, and that is one of the reasons for the great unrest throughout the country at the present time. The trouble is due to one restriction or another ' placed on the people from time to time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In reply to the hon. member, I may say that there is no country which has been engaged in the war during the last three or four years in which fewer restrictions have been imposed on the people than in Canada. In respect of the restrictions on the exportation of milk and other products to the United States, what was the situation that existed in August last, at a time when the struggle between the German armies and the Allies had reached its greatest intensity in Europe? The British people were practically face to face with a situation where butter could not be secured, and their rations were down to half an ounce per person per week. They requested the food Administrations of the United States and Canada to take some action that would relieve them in this respect. It was essential that the morale of the British and French people should be kept at its highest possible point at that time, and as a result cf their request the United States Food Administration commandeered outright, if my memory is correct, 60 per cent of the butter supplies then in cold storage in the United States. Coupled with this question is also the matter of the price of the article at home. The United States commandeered supplies in stock without limitations as to prices, and the result was that within a few weeks, due to the withdrawal from consumption of

this large quantity of butter, prices in the United States rapidly rose until they advanced some 12 to 18 cents per pound over what they had previously been.
Mr. MoMASTER:	The hon. member for
Chateauguay-Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) stated that this butter that was commandeered by the American Government did not get across, or at least not all of it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no information as to that. If it did not get across it was probably due to the fact that they were obliged to keep some at home to cope with the rapid increase in prices as a result of commandeering. In Canada, under the regulations of the Food Board, limitations of price in butter was not fixed, but the margins of profit that could be taken by dealers in butter, whether cold storage, merchants or others, were fixed definitely by regulations under the Food Board.
These dealers were obliged to produce evidence that they were selling their butter within the margin of profit that had been allowed. In devising a method of meeting' the request of the British Food Ministry for supplies of butter the Canadian Food Board were faced with the problem of trying to secure that butter without abnormally increasing the price in Canada. The price of the butter in cold storage and in wholesale dealers' hands was already limited in this respect, that the margin of profit on it was limited, and since the butter had already gone into their hands at prices prevailing when they purchased, the selling price was practically established.
I want to assure the Committee, and particularly the hon. member for Chateauguay-Huntingdon, that this question was most carefully considered by myself, by the expert officials in the department and also by the Dairy Produce Commission., of whom I shall have a word to say in a moment. After we had gathered all the facts that were available we reached the conclusion that the better method in Canada would be to commandeer the production of butter from the factories in Canada for a stated period. An order was issued to that effect. The period covered five weeks' production. The price was fixed at Montreal, if my memory serves me, a.t a cent or a cent and a half a pound over what the Dairy Produce Commission had been paying theretofore.


James Alexander Robb: If the first statement of the minister was correct, that they wanted the butter in the Mother Country, will he explain how they arrived at the conclusion that it would be better to take it from the

farms in that way for a period extending into November than by taking it immediately out of cold storage?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Because we could get it as rapidly as we could fill the shipping space that was available to send it overseas. We found this situation: Due to the commandeering order in the United States and the lack of control over the margin of profit in that country, the butter price had gone up, as I have stated, from 12 to 18 cents a pound, and it was fully that much higher in the United States than in Canada. One thing obviously resulted. The Canadian farmers found a market in the United States available and they found that they could get much higher prices there for milk and cream than they could get in Canada under the commandeering order. Of course, they naturally commenced to take advantage of this. Hon. members will appreciate that if this was permitted those farmers who were so situated in Canada that they could ship their milk and cream to the United States, would be in a position of great advantage over those other farmers who could not avail themselves of that facility. Moreover, the principal purpose for which this requisition order had been issued would be to a large degree defeated. We wanted to get butter to supply Great Britain but we wanted to do it with fairness to all the interests concerned. We did not want to do it in a way that would unduly enhance the price to the Canadian consumers and we wanted to deal fairly with the farmers who were producing it. The price was fixed at one and one and a half cents a pound higher than that which hitherto had been paid and an embargo restriction was imposed on the shipment of milk and cream to the United States. It was not imposed in the absolute sense that the hon. member for Huntingdon has suggested. Those farmers who had a market, or who had their regular customers in the United States were permitted to send out the same amount of milk and cream they had hitherto been sending in order that they might retain their connections for the period of this temporary disturbance. Consequently, they continued to enjoy that right during the whoto period of the embargo. Every farmer however who had not a market already established in the United States was prevented from sending his milk and cream out. That was retained in Canada for the purpose of producing butter for shipment -overseas. The quantity of butter that was manufactured in these factories during this period

amounted to something over 5,000,000
pounds.	[DOT]
The hon. member has alluded to the Dairy Produce Commission which was really the agent of the British Ministry of Food in purchasing dairy products in Canada. That commission had as its chairman, and its chief administrative officer, Mr. James Alexander of Montreal who is one of the oldest cheese dealers in the city.
I want to say-and I have very intimate knowledge of the facts-that Mr. Alexander gave freely and unstintedly his time and attention to the work that he had in hand.
I have had repeated evidence from the officials of the British Ministry of Food as to their satisfaction with the manner in which that work was carried on. In addition there were on that Dairy Produce Commission, Mr. Ruddick, the Dairy Commissioner of Canada, and there were also two representatives of the farmers, or milk producers, of Canada, Mr. James Donaldson, of Atwood, president of the Western Ontario Dairymen's Association, and Mr. Guerin, of Quebec. Every step in this whole proposal was considered fully by the members of the Dairy Produce Commission on which, as I have stated, there were two farmers representing the dairying interests in Canada. The commission were in entire agreement as to the policy that should be followed. It is a mistake to think that the milk and cream producers in Canada were not directly represented in that matter. They were directly represented by the two representatives of the Dairyman's associations. The Dairy Produce Commission has wound up its work. The importation of butter and dairy products into Great Britain has been decontrolled and is now back in the hands of private traders. I wish to say in conclusion that in my judgment-and I have a fair knowledge in connection with it-the Dairy Produce Commission has rendered excellent service not only to the British Ministry of Food but also to the producers of Canada.


James Alexander Robb: How many pounds of butter does the minister say the transaction represented?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Between five and six
million pounds according to my memory. I have not the figures here and it is some months since I looked at them.


James Alexander Robb: lls it not true that, as a
result of commandeering the products of the prairie factories, about 1,000,000 pounds of butter came in from New Zealand, and did not the farmers of Western Canada put
up a big howl to the minister because they had lost the British Columbia market?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not think there is very much in that statement. As a matter of fact I do not recall any great howl made to the Minister of Agriculture by the dairymen or creameries of the prairies in respect to the British Columbia market.
I wish to allude to a point mentioned by the hon. member for Chateauguay-Hunting-don (Mr. Robb), and that is the charge that private dealers in Montreal had benefited by virtue of having inside information before the commandeering order was made public. I know that charge has been made, but I want to say on my responsibility as a minister that I do not think there is any foundation for it; from the best information I have been able to get there is not. I may be mistaken in that regard, but I do not think I am.
With regard to the importation of New Zealand butter into Canada. This butter has for years been coming into the Dominion. Owing to the lack of tonnage available from New Zealand to Great Britain, large surpluses of butter have accumulated in the former country, and the vessels that occasionally traded between British Columbia and the Australian Dominions carried the commodity. To-day New Zealand butter is being laid down in British Columbia at a cheaper rate than it can be produced in the Prairie Provinces, and I expect that condition will continue for some time to come. It is a case of having a large surplus in a country that has been unable to find its usual market, and the expansion of our own dairy trade not being what we might otherwise have expected.


Edmond Proulx: Would the minister say how much Canadian butter is exported to the United States?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am sorry to say that 1 have not any definite information on the point, but I am advised that the exports have been very slight. Recently, I believe, there have been some shipments to the United States on account of the higher prices prevailing there.


Edmond Proulx: I saw it reported in the newspapers that a large quantity of Canadian butter was exported to the United States and that it accounted for the commodity being so dear in Canada.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I noticed the same report in the newspapers, and I believe it is correct that within the last few weeks several carloads of butter have gone to the United

States. I fancy that condition will be readjusted now that the local supplies there are being increased and marketed.


Mr. J. F. REID:: I wish to congratulate the minister on the very popular appointment which he has made to the position of Deputy Minister of Agriculture. Now that the minister and his deputy are both farmers we may expect great results from the administration of this department. Heretofore it would seem to have been essential that we should have a lawyer as deputy minister. Personally, I fail to see any connection between the law and the agricultural industry. 'I am, therefore, glad that the Government has got away from any such policy, and that in consequence we are likely to see most beneficial results as far as the development of agriculture is concerned. For one thing I would like to see the Government establish more experimental farms. To my mind there could not be a better investment than to add to their number. Let me give a specific instance of the value of these farms. It will be recalled that the late Dr. Saunders, who in his life time was Director of Experimental Farms, after a very prolonged and tedious series of experiments produced a distinct [DOT]type of wheat called Marquis Wheat. That particular variety has been of the utmost benefit to Canada, and I venture to assert has brought millions of dollars to this country. In Western Canada we are practically getting away altogether from the growing of the old Red Fife Wheat; and I understand that when the farmers of Ontario brought samples of that wheat from the West for seed purposes and tried them, they found that they could grow spring wheat through the agency of the Marquis. At present we have in Saskatchewan Mr. Seager Wheeler, who is doubtless known by reputation to many of the members of this House. Mr. Wheeler is a veritable wizard in producing and propagating different varieties of grain, and, as is well known, is the winner of the world's championship in wheat. At the present time he is experimenting with two other distinct varieties of wheat, the Kitchener and the Red Bobs. I think the Government should do something to encourage Mr. Wheeler in carrying on his work. For a long time he has spent almost all his time in experimenting along these lines, and now, I understand, his health ds breaking down. Mr. Wheeler's work has been of very great value, not only to the growers but to the consumers of wheat in this country. I mention these facts so 
that the minister may give his careful consideration to the matter:
Another thing I would like to draw attention to is the live stock situation. If a careful survey were taken to-day of our live stock resources, principally cattle, I believe it would be found that the situation in Canada to-day is not as good as it was, say, ten years ago. I believe that is because pure-bred sires are not being imported into Canada from the Old Country where they breed the best stock in the world. I am informed that the Argentine buyers, when they go to the United Kingdom, purchase not only pure-bred sires but female stock; they buy the very best that can be found on the market. As regards Canada I do not wish to say a word against our importers of pure-bred live stock, but with them it seems to be a matter of dollars and cents and very naturally they figure on how many dollars they can make out of a transaction. I think if our Government were to import some of the best of the different types of pure-bred cattle- pure-bred sires at least and a few of the -females-and then possibly let them out on some terms, or sell them to the stock raisers of the Dominion, so that we would have a continuous stream of the best pure-bred animals coming into Canada, it would be a splendid thing for our live stock industry.
Mr. .T. R. WILSON: The hon. gentleman who has just spoken has mentioned a matter which I am very much interested in, and which I had intended bringing to the attention of the minister, and that is the good work which Mr. Seagar Wheeler, of Saskatchewan, has been carrying on in the development of different varieties of wheat. While he was not the discoverer of Marquis wheat, Mr. Wheeler, by a process of selection, I believe, greatly improved upon the original discovery. For the information of the Committee I would like to read certain information as evidence of what Mr. Wheeler has done. As a result of his own effort, and without any assistance whatever, he is advertising Canada as a wheat producing country more than any other man that I know of. He has done this entirely at his own expense, and mainly through exhibiting the results of his experiments at exhibitions and wheat seed fairs, in the United States. Let me enumerate some of the prizes he has won in competition with the Western States as well as with various competitors from Canada.

1911.__New York Land Show. Won world's
prize, first and sweepstakes, $1,000 in gold, offered for the best hard red spring wheat grown on the continent. Won this prize with Marquis wheat, then almost unknown.
1914.	_1Von sweepstakes at International Farm Congress, Wichita, Kansas, winning again with Marquis wheat.
1915.	-Won sweepstakes with Marquis wheat at International Farm Congress at Denver, Colorado. Also first prize at International Irrigation Congress, Bassano, Alberta. Won highest honours for sheaf of Kitchener wheat at Denver.
1916.	-Won sweepstakes for fourth time, this year at International Farm Congress at El Paso, Texas, with Kitchener wheat, discovered by Mr. Wheeler.
1917.	-Mr. Wheeler wias hailed out in 1916', but exhibited a sheaf of Red Bobs Wheat, which he discovered, at International Farm Congress, Peoria, Illinois, and carried off sweepstakes.
1918.	-Won sweepstakes for fifth time for best bushel of hard spring wheat, winning this time against very strong competition at the International Soil Products Exposition, Kansas City. Won with Marquis wheat again. Also won first for sheaf of hard red wheat.
But Mr. Wheeler did not confine his efforts to wheat. Here are some of the prizes he won for oats:
1915.-Victory Oats. Won sweepstakes with a sheaf exhibit at International Farm Congress, Denver, Colorado.
1917,	-Won second prize in sheaf exhibit at International Farm Congress.
1918,	-Won first prize for sheaf exhibit at International Soil Products Exposition at Kansas City, Kansas.
He has taken up also the improvement of
barley. The following are some of the prizes that he has won in this connection:
19,14.-won third prize at International Irrigation Congress, Calgary, Alta.
1915.	-Won first prize for sheaf exhibit, International Farm Congress, Denver, Colorado.
1916.	-Won first and sweepstakes at International Farm Congress, El Paso, Texas.
1917.	-First prize for sheaf exhibit, International Farm Congress, Peoria, 111.
1918.	-Won first prize, International Soil Products Exposition, Kansas City, Kansas.
This man should have some recognition from the Department of Agriculture.


An hon. MEMBER:: Give him a knighthood.


Mr. J. R. WILSON:: Well, I would be in favour of knighting him if we had not voted against knighthood the other day. Many men in Canada have received knighthoods who do not deserve them as much as Mr. Wheeler, on his humble farm in Saskatchewan. His services have been a real benefit to the public. No man can make two blades of grass grow where formerly there was only one without doing a great benefit to his country. I have personal knowledge of this man's work. He came to Canada
from England in 1885, arriving at Moosejaw in the midst of those trying years when most people were discouraged from farming in Western Canada. From 1883 to 1887 there were almost continuous crop failures owing to the fact that, without irrigation, there was not enough moisture to produce vegetation. Wheeler, who was a young boy at the time, showed his interest in agriculture by first cultivating a garden in low-lying ground along a creek that ran through the town of Moosejaw. He carried the necessary water in a bucket and had a beautiful garden growing while no one else in the town was making any attempt to produce vegetables. He afterwards moved to the north country, and I have read you the result of his efforts along the line of the improvement of cereals. The least the Government could do is recognize this man's efforts by assisting him in some way, even if only to the extent of a grant of $1,000 or $1,500 a year, to put him beyond worry so far as his living is concerned and to enable him to devote all his thought and energy to the work in which he is specially interested and for which he is particularly well fitted, the development of our cereals. I strongly recommend that the minister give this matter his careful consideration.


Mr. BEST:: One of the most important things in connection with farming is the selection of good, clean seed. The sowing of seed which contains wild seeds not only curtails the amount of the grain produced, but leaves the land in a wild state and gives rise to much additional work and trouble for years to come. As the machinery for properly cleaning grain costs a good deal of money, it is beyond the reach of the average farmer. It is up to the minister, therefore, to see that the people of Ontario are provided with an elevator at some convenient place, where they may store their grain and have it re-cl6aned and dried if necessary. I think I am not going beyond the truth when I say that had we had an elevator in some convenient place in Ontario last year half of its cost would have been made up by the saving of the beans that were lost in that province because of the lack of facilities for properly cleaning them. In the eastern part of the province the condition is not so bad, because Montreal is within easy reach. But the farmers lost three or four cents a bushel on the grain shipped by rail from Toronto to Montreal; it was inspected when it arrived there and they had to take what they could get for it. i am not much in favour of every-

thing going to the large centres, but if this grain could be re-cleaned properly, say at Toronto, where there are good railway facilities, and if there was proper elevator accommodation, with all the necessary machinery for cleaning, thousands of dollars would be saved for the people of Ontario. Some years ago much seed wheat was shipped out of Ontario to Western Canada. A good deal of that wheat was not properly cleaned and was not in proper condition when it was sent out. During the past winter thousands of bushels of oats have been shipped from Ontario to Western Canada for seed. The farmers received from sixty to seventy cents a bushel for those oats, whereas if the oats had been cleaned they could have got from seventy-five to eighty cents a bushel. The farmers were losing from five to ten cents a bushel on those oats, because cleaning would cost only a few cents a bushel. The Government has received deputations asking that an elevator be established in some convenient place in Ontario, and I hope the minister will see that we have one built for the convenience and benefit of the farmers. I believe the outlay would be paid for almost every year.


Mr. COWAN:: We have in southwestern Saskatchewan and through the south end of Alberta what may be termed a semi-arid district. It is a district in which we have not up to the present had anything like sufficient moisture to satisfy the needs of farming. My opinion is that it is only a question of years when that difficulty will be overcome because, with settlement and cultivation in Western Canada, we have largely overcome that same drawback in other districts. ' Many Americans who have come into that district and who have previously lived in somewhat similar, and possibly worse, districts, on the American side, claim that if the Government would change the seed to suit that district and use what is termed drouth-resisting varieties of seed, the farmers there would be able to grow more grain than they are now growing, and to make a success of farming. Are there any objections or obstacles to the use of these drouth-resisting varieties in that district? Is it impossible to sell grain of that variety in this country, and would farmers have to go to the United States to find a market if they went into the raising of grain of that kind ?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think the hon. member is alluding to Durum wheat.


Walter Davy Cowan: The minister probably knows that the Western Development Com-
[.Mt. Best. ]
pany, whose president is Mr. J. H. Haslam, has been raising the greatest objection to present methods. He has informed me that he has been negotiating with the department, and I understand several others have been doing the same thing. Whatever they are asking for is what I refer to.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Some experiments have been carried on in our western experimental stations and farms with drouth-resisting wheats and especially Durum wheat, which is grown very largely in Southern Dakota and Minnesota.


Andrew Ross McMaster: It is a soft wheat.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is a softer variety of wheat than we produce in Canada. Our inspection regulations do not at present provide specifically for it. While I am not certain, I believe that in the amendments proposed to be made to the Grain Act, in all likelihood at the present session of Parliament, there is one providing for this. During the last two years quite a number of farmers have been growing these varieties in a small way and the results have been satisfactory. As to the market for this wheat, while it is not as valuable a wheat as the varieties we have been growing in Western Canada, it has excellent qualities for blending and mixing purposes, and I have no doubt if we grew it here, a satisfactory market could be found for it. The matter is now engaging the attention of the officials of the department.
T want to say a word or two in respect to the proposal advanced by the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. J. F. Reid) and the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. J. R. Wilson), namely, for some recognition of -the splendid work that has been done by Mr. Seager Wheeler, of Rosthern, Sask.


Samuel William Jacobs: He should be knighted.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I know Mr. Wheeler personally, and I have known for many years of the splendid work he has been doing and the advertisement, to say the least, that his wonderful series of prize^vinning achievements in international expositions has given to Western Canada. This proposal that hi9 work should be recognized by the Federal Department of Agriculture was placed before me many months ago, and I gave considerable thought to it. There is, of course, one difficulty. In matters of Government, precedents are always dangerous to establish, and while I fully recognize the value of the work Mr. Wheeler has done, I have not been able up to the present to convince, myself that that recog-

nition should come from the Federal Department. Without in any way desiring to throw the responsibility elsewhere, I consider this a matter in which the Provincial Government might, to better advantage, give the recognition. In the realm of agriculture there are certain things that should be done by provincial department? of agriculture and certain other things that fall more naturally into the federal field Mr. Seager Wheeler has rendered excellent service to the grain growers of Western Canada; indeed, I know of no other individual farmer who has done more.
I should like to refer also to the remarks of the hon. member for Dufferin (Mr. Best) as regards the advisability and, indeed the necessity, of providing elevator facilities in Ontario. That is a matter that comes within the jurisdiction of the Department of Trade and Commerce, which has charge of grain elevators. Some time ago quite a representative delegation waited on the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce (Hon. A. K. Maclean) and urged upon him the advisability of building at once at some suitably located point in Ontario an elevator that would serve the purposes and needs set out by the hon. member for Dufferin. I believe the matter is now under the consideration of that department. I am not certain, but I think the Board of Grain Commissioners have been asked to make some report upon the advisability and utility of the proposal.


Andrew Ross McMaster: It is always gratifying to hear a Cabinet minister lay down principles of sound economics, and the minister is to be congratulated on his desire not to create a precedent of giving money grants. But it seems to me that as this Mr. Seager Wheeler has been doing great work for the country, there should be some way in which he could be assisted in that work, and I have a suggestion to make to the minister in that connection. A little while ago the minister 'spoke about illustration stations which, I understand, are on farms belonging to private farmers.


John Flaws Reid: Demonstration stations?


Andrew Ross McMaster: Well, demonstration
stations, but the distinction between demonstrating and illustrating how to do a thing is a distinction without very much difference. Why not make a demonstration station of the farm on which this gentleman does his experimental work and give him, for conducting this experimental or demonstration station, some adequate remuneration which will enable him, without thought for the morrow as regards his own personal fortune, to pursue his own experiments which, I understand from hon. members from the West, have been of material advantage to our country?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The suggestion of the hon. member will be taken into very careful consideration. I might point out, however, that the work that Mr. Wheeler has specialized in is different from that carried on at the illustration farms. His great contribution to agriculture in Western Canada has been the breeding and cross-breeding of different varieties of wheat.


Mr. LEGER:: While I appreciate very much the intention of the Government to assist the farmers throughout the country, I would suggest that a little more be done for the farmers of the Maritime Provinces. In New Brunswick some years ago the production of wheat was almost nil, until the Provincial Government took the matter in hand and assisted the farmers by 'bonusing small grist mills and distributing wheat seed. The province had practically abandoned the growing of wheat because of the lack of mills to grind it, but now the Provincial Government bonuses any one who will build a mill, and the result is that the production of wheat has increased by 300 to 400 per cent. The imills are doing very well, but there are not enough of them throughout the province. The bonus granted by the Provincial Government is not large enough, and I would therefore suggest that the Dominion Government join hands with the Provincial Government in encouraging the building of mills. In the county where I live you can go for fifty miles without seeing.a grist mill. That condition practically prohibits the raising of wheat, and the farmers might just as well take up some other work. I know a party in my own county who is willing to build a mill but has not the means, in view of the high cost of labour and materials. If the Government would bonus those who erect grist mills for grinding and cleaning the wheat, it would certainly encourage production and be of great advantage to the farmers. It is very necessary that the farmers should have clean wheat seed.


James Alexander Robb: I notice there is no item in the Estimates for exhibitions. Has that feature been dropped?


Mr. A. THOMPSON:: I have a suggestion to make to the minister, and one that I

have thought of more than once, in connection with the great wheat industry of Canada. I believe we can grow and mature a brand of wheat in the Yukon which would he of great value to the wheat growers on our western plains. It may be news to some hon. gentlemen to know that we do grow wheat in t'he Yukon.


Samuel William Jacobs: Golden grain.


Alfred Thompson: It is just as golden and worth a little more than that grown on the plains.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What does it cost to
grow a bushel of wheat in the Yukon?


Alfred Thompson: That is a mere
trifle. I have not figured it out on the bushel basis, but we have demonstrated that wheat of a very fine quality wall mature in the Yukon. Recently, the Yukon Development League, an organization for the advancement of Yukon affairs, provided a dinner in Dawson and every article of food on the table was grown in the Yukon Territory.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: How many diners were present?


Alfred Thompson: A large numbeT.
Some years ago I brought down and laid on the table of the House a sample of our Yukon wheat, and it created considerable interest. Afterwards I sent it to the seed analyst at the Experimental Station here, and he planted one hundred grains taken at random out of the sack. He was surprised, and I was delighted, to find that every one of those grains germinated, showing the vitality of the wheat we grow in the Yukon. There is a small agricultural station at Dawson, and my suggestion is that the minister select different types of wheat and have them grown there, to see if we cannot grow a type of wheat in the Yukon which will require a shorter season than any wheat grown in Saskatchewan, Alberta or Manitoba. I make that suggestion because I think there are some potentialities. We have so much sunlight in the Yukon in the summer that grain grows very rapidly, and the number of growing days would consequently be less than on the prairiesi.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That suggestion has
already been acted upon. We have in the Yukon a small' experimental station that is maintained at a cost of slightly under $2,000 a year, and I am informed that we are already experimenting at that station with three or four different varieties of
iMr. A. Thompson.]
wheat to see if we can produce the splendid results which my hon. friend anticipates, and which I hope will be realized.
In regard to the suggestion that we should bonus grist mills in New Brunswick, I am afraid that would be of doubtful value, and I frankly state I do not think the suggestion will be acted upon. If any special assistance is required for this industry in New Brunswick I think it should be contributed by the people who are immediately to benefit from it. The grist mills of New Brunswick could not in any sense be considered a national enterprise. 1 have certain views on the virtues of the bonus principle generally, but I shall not trouble the Committee with them now.


Samuel William Jacobs: A bonus is sometimes
useful in a doubtful constituency.


Mr. ARGUE:: I should like the minister to consider the advisability of having an experimental farm in that so-called arid district in the southeast part of Saskatchewan. I have lived there now for fifteen years, since the first furrows were ploughed and the first crops grown, and in that length of time we have lost two crops. I believe that if we had had an experimental farm there a good deal of expense could have been saved in connection with seed which we have been compelled for two seasons to send to that district to help the farmers. Last year the Government for this purpose withdrew a section of land that was put on the market for sale, and I would like the minister to consider the advisability of making a start in that section of the country in establishing an experimental farm. Even if it were only on a small scale it would be a great benefit.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I think the first few
items here might pass, but there are some things that hon. members wish to say on other phases of the very prolific and important subject we have been discussing. Perhaps the minister might agree to leave such matters as live stock commissioners and directors of experimental farms.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The hon. members for
Ch ateauguay-H u ntingdon requested that a certain item on which there would be general discussion might be held over. I shall be willing to do that. The general Estimates are found on page 58. We could leave No. 53 with the understanding that any general discussion could again take place, when that item came up.	That
would give members not in the House today an opportunity to bring forward matters they might wish to discuss.


Mr. McKHNZIE:: In 1913 or about that
time, when the hon. Secretary of 'State (Mr. Burrell) was Minister of Agriculture, we used to discuss the advisability of establishing not altogether demonstration farms but small farms for the development of agriculture. The idea was that some of the $10,000,000 set apart for the development of the industry could be utilized in 'buying small farms in the neighbourhood of industrial centres, say, for instance, near the steel works in the county from which I come, where there are thousands of farmers' sons, and men from Ireland, England and Scotland who make marvellous developments of little bits of land about their houses. I-t was thought that if the Government could establish thirty or forty or even twenty small farms of between twenty-five and forty acres each, with house and barn, and give a small start in the way of developing these farms, and then sell them, men would be very anxious and willing to go in for the scheme. The idea has been developed in the West by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I understand they have built houses on certain sections of land; and they sell not only the bare land but the houses and barns and some equipment. In that way they have given a great boom to agriculture in that part of the country. We have in Nova Scotia millions of acres that are unoccupied, and it is not unusual to find a man owning four or five hundred acres and living on it with his wife, being able to scratch a bare living out of perhaps five per cent of the land. That land to which I refer could be used to great advantage if people could be found to take an interest in agriculture, and I am sure the Government would lose no money if they undertook this project. All they need is courage and enterprise, and they would find these little farms would be successful and would give a fresh impetus to agriculture. It was thought in the early days that the thing would be practicable, and there was some co-operation between the honourable gentleman (Mr. Burrell) and the Minister of Agriculture for Nova Scotia. Some start was made in the buying of old farms but the matter was not looked after properly and nothing of importance has really been done. What is absolutely e* sential for the development of the country is that it shall be a place in which the ordinary man can live in comfort, and the only way in which that can be achieved is to encourage the farmer to produce and enable him to sell at reasonable prices. The only advantage to the farmer is the profit he makes, and if he can make a large
profit it is better for the country. He may make a fair profit on a small quantity, but if he can make a proportionate profit on large quantities of produce there is a beneficial result all round. It is absolutely necessary for the Department of Agriculture to make a departure from the rut in which we have been moving for the last twenty-five years, and to show what can be done along these lines. I have no particular line to indicate to the minister, but I have suggested what might be done in the neighbourhood of large centres. I have spoken of Cape Breton because I know men there who are ready to take hold of these little farms if they are put within their reach. They have not the means themselves to buy lands and put up houses, but if they were helped up to that stage they would jump at the proposition. The market is there and they could sell their produce, and there are young men from the Old Country who are enterprising enough to do very well if they were given a start. Another thing I might point out is the desirability of encouraging the extension of tram cars that are in touch with agricultural land so as to encourage the farmer. Companies might be encouraged to push their lines into the country. These things cost money, but the minister in charge of the department must have courage to depart from the old line and not hesitate to spend money abundantly so long as good results can be obtained. We want to make 'Canada produce something proportionate to its capacity for production.
Mr. iLEiMIEUX: In connection with the distribution of literature, I have noticed that literature is printed in both languages and when any one applies to the department he can get either French or English copies. I want to inform the minister-and this can be confirmed by the deputy minister-that the best agent of the department in my province is the cure, who is generally the honorary president and sometimes the secretary of what we call the Circles Agricoles. There is one in every county, and sometimes one in every parish, and in the pulpit on nearly every 'Sunday of the year in these rural districts the cure will spend a portion of his time speaking to the farmers on agricultural matters.
I would like my hon. friend to send the literature which is issued by the department in French-not all, but the most essential bulletins-to the cures of the province of Quebec, so as to secure their devotion to the cause. Because the great issue of the day is the necessity of getting our

people back to the land and improving living conditions in the rural districts. I have offered these remarks now because unfortunately, I shall not be able to be present this evening.
Mr. 'CRERAR:	I can say to the hon.
gentleman that the suggestion which he has made will be acted upon.
At six o'clock the House resumed and took recess.
After Kecess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 120 (from the Senate), for the relief of Eleanor Margaret Webster-Mr. Cronyn.
Bill No. 121 (from the Senate), for the relief of Jean Donaldson Sifton- Mr. Mc-Master.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply.
Experimental Farms-maintenance of Central Farm, and establishment and maintaining of additional branch stations, $1,2100,000.
['I beg to move to insert the word "unmarried" before the word "sisters."']
Frank S. Cahill: Will the minister explain
the increase in this item? I would also like him to give the Committee some information with regard to the advantage of th.e experimental farms and stations in different parts of the country. For instance, what advantage has the Experimental Farm at Ottawa been?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That matter was discussed very fully this afternoon. I believe the hon. member (Mr. Cahill) was not present. If the bon. gentleman will refer to the discussion that has already taken place, I think he will get the information he desires. The work that is carried on at the Central farm at Ottawa is very largely of an experimental character. I might illustrate that by the statement that Marquis wheat, which has been of immense value to Canada, was the product of experiments carried on at the farm at Ottawa. That is only one of many similar experiments that have been successfully carried out here.


Frank S. Cahill: Have they discovered anything since the Marquis wheat?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, and they are working on a new wheat now. Some hon. members asked as to the occasion for the increase in the vote for experimental farms. It is ac-
[iMr. Lemieux.]
counted for very largely by the increase in wages and in the cost of the materials generally that are necessary in the operation of the farm. There is also a provision for the establishment of branch farms and stations.


Mr. J. E. SINCLAIR:: Where are the stations proposed to be established?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No definite locations have as yet been located for the new experimental farms. Provision is made so that, if it is considered advisable to extend the work in the direction of experimental stations, it can be done. There is also a considerable portion of the vote for the further development of experimental farms that are already established, such as the farm at Kapuskasing, Ontario, and some farms in Quebec.


Mr. SEXSMITH:: Have you any branch stations in Ontario now?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have the tobacco station at Harrow, Essex county, and the experimental farm at Kapuskasing.


John Albert Sexsmith: How many branch
stations are there in the Dominion?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Twenty experimental farms and experimental stations.


John Albert Sexsmith: Are these stations for experimental purposes?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; there is really no difference between an experimental station and an experimental farm. They practically carry on the same work.


John Ewen Sinclair: Would the minister give us the information as to the cost of the experimental farm at Ottawa?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 
Frank S. Cahill: Who is the director of the farm?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Mr. Archibald, succeeding Dr. Grisdale, who has been made deputy minister.


John Ewen Sinclair: Is there a permanent superintendent of the Charlottetown Experimental Farm?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Superintendent of the experimental farm at Charlottetown was given leave of absence to go overseas to do special work in connection with the Khaki University. As soon as that work is completed, he will return to his post.


Frank S. Cahill: What expenditure is proposed at the Kapuskasing Farm and the Spirit Lake Farm, and what were the results of the work last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The	estimate for the
Kapuskasing Farm for the present year is $40,525. During last year considerable land was acquired and brought under cultivation; new buildings were erected and the equipment of the farm was generally improved in order that the work could be more effectively carried on. For the Spirit Lake farm the estimate this year is $44,500, for practically the same kind of work.


John Ewen Sinclair: A great deal of trouble has been experienced by the farmers because of the fact that they cannot get results from the Paris green which is now being sold for use in poisoning the potato beetle. Has any investigation been made into this matter at the Central Experimental Farm or any of the branch stations, or at the laboratories?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know that any experiments have been carried on to test the efficacy of the Paris green that has been sold. Paris green must, under the regulations of the Inland Revenue Department, come up to certain standards before it may he sold.
Mr. J. E, SINCLAIR: It is subject to inspection?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, under the Inland Revenue Act.


Frank S. Cahill: What amount of the vote for experimental farms last year was expended?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed by the deputy that the total amount voted last year was expended.


Frank S. Cahill: Does the minister think that it will be necessary to have this extra amount this year? Does he think it is a good time to increase the expenditure? I am sorry to note that every minister is making increased expenditures; I had hoped that the democratic Minister of Agriculture would cut down expenditures, not increase them. I note also that no minister is able to explain these increased expenditures. It simply is " an item we may need some time in the future"; or it is explained that " we are making provision for something we practically do not know anything about, but we want to have enough in our estimates; in other words, we want to keep up with the other twenty or so ministers; we 'want to increase our expenditures regardless of whether we need the money or not." They seem to have the idea that the country is looking for increased expenditures-for full steam ahead without regard to where the money is coming from. The minister should explain to the Committee just what he thinks of the whole system of the Department of Agriculture as at present constituted, particularly of this Central Experimental . Farm and the other


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. The hon. gentleman is entering upon a subject which was discussed very fully on the Civil Government Estimates this afternoon when he was absent. I certainly cannot allow a repetition of the same arguments to-night.


Frank S. Cahill: We are considering an item of $1,200,000 for experimental farms, and I wish to ask the minister if he believes that the present system of experimental farms is the best method of bringing about the better use of seeds, the raising of better stock, and so on. This farm at Spirit Lake is in my constituency, in the far north. There is another farm at Kapuskasing, only a few miles away; one is in Quebec and the other is in Ontario. Something like $80,000 a year is being spent on these farms-an extraordinarily large amount. Moreover, the expenditure on the Experimental Farm at Ottawa seems to be entirely out of proportion to the results that are being obtained. The minister tells us that they developed a kind of wheat there some years ago. The older members of the House tell me, however, that that argument has been practically worked to death here; that seems to be the only explanation each year for increasing the expenditure. Does the minister not think that a better system might be worked out by distributing smaller farms throughout the country and doing the



work on a purely business basis in the different provinces? These large farms in Ottawa and at other points are purely experimental farms. A demonstration farm is quite different from an experimental farm. A demonstration farm would show the farmers in the community how to improve their seed, their stock, and their conditions generally; the experimental farm would seem to make experiments from which the independent farmer can obtain no profit. Does not the minister think that this money could be more profitably expended on demonstration farms?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Had the hon. member been here this afternoon he would have obtained at least the greater part of the information he now seeks. In every country that is making any effort to secure sound agricultural development, experimental farms and stations and demonstration stations are maintained.
As to the increase which the hon. member criticises, the matter resolves itself simply into this, that if we are to pay the increased cost of operation, such as the increase in wages and the higher cost of material, due to causes over which the Department of Agriculture has no control, then, if we are to keep the vote at the same amount as last year, we shall have to cut down the efficiency of the farms, and that would not be a wise move nor justified in any way. The development of agriculture in every country in the world is becoming more and more dependent upon the application of sound, scientific methods, not only in respect to methods of cultivation as to cereals, fruits and vegetables, but in the field of animal husbandry, which is of immense importance. For instance, as was pointed out this afternoon, the beef animals produced in Canada are inferior to those produced in the Argentine and in the United States. Experiments which are being carried on at several stations and farms, demonstrate conclusively the advantages of producing higher class animals at practically the same or even slightly lower cost than inferior animals. Those facts are published, and they are also made known to those who visit the farms and personally acquaint themselves with the experiments that are being carried on. We have passed the time when the utility and advantages of experimental farms and stations can be successfully challenged. It is, perhaps, an open question as to what is the best method of carrying on the work. I said .this afternoon, and I will repeat it 
now for the information of the hon. member, that from the information we are gathering it seems that the establishment of illustration farms will probably prove the most effective method of bringing the farmers closely and directly in touch with the advantages of the work that is being carried on-.


Frank S. Cahill: What is the difference in the weights of cattle from range country and from Eastern Canada? Where do the ranchers procure the information that a certain class of cattle is better than others? For instance, are there any herds at the Ottawa Experimental Farm? What are. the heavier cattle and what are the classes that are best suited to the different sections of Canada for beef and other purposes?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The department does not
carry on any experiments on ranching farm scale, that is, where cattle run out on ranges. The experiments are conducted for instance, with dairy cattle as to what is the best type, the advantages that come from certain strains of breeding, in milk production and in the butter-fat quality of the cream that is produced. Feeding experiments in cattle have been carried out not only at the Central Experimental Farm but at branch farms, to determine what profit there is to the individual carrying on work along the same line, and some very interesting results have been found. I am safe in saying that hundreds of thousands of bulletins dealing with these various matters are distributed free to the farmers, and the increasing interest in the work is manifested by the large number of additional inquiries that are coming in all the time for this information.


Frank S. Cahill: Does the department at
any of its experimental stations throughout Canada, east or west, make recommendations to the stock raiser as to what class of cattle is best adapted to certain districts? I understood the minister to say that the weight of these beef cattle had been increased; in other words, that the standard of beef throughout Canada had been raised. If that be so, in what way was it brought about by the Department of Agriculture?
Mr. CRERAR; I have already stated the work that is carried on at "those farms, and I do not know that I can add anything to the information I have given.


Frank S. Cahill: Is anything done for the
stock raiser?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Certainly, the whole
thing is designed to help the stock raiser. He has the advantage of coming to the farm-as stock raisers do in large numbers -to see for himself the result of the work carried on. In addition the results of these experiments are published in pamphlet form and distributed to thousands and thousands of stock raisers throughout Canada. These pamphlets give a description of the experiments and their actual results.


Mr. MYERS:: Is there included in the
Estimates an amount for an experimental farm to be established at Eston, Saskatchewan? I think the minister has had some communications from that district which is quite similar to the district described by the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Argue) this afternoon.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have a general appropriation for the establishment of new farms. We shall not, I am afraid, be able to. go very far this year in that direction. We have, of course, on the one hand, as we had this afternoon, several hon. members urging that this work be extended and more illustration and demonstration farms established; then we have to-night the hon. member for Pontiac (Mr. Cahill) claiming that the brakes should be put on and the expenditure reduced. We have endeavoured to strike a fair middle course and have included in our Estimates a sum that will, we hope, enable us to establish possibly a few new experimental stations during the year, and the point to which the hon. member alludes and which has already been brought to my notice will receive consideration.


Edward Thomas Wordon Myers: There is no farm in that particular district, and I think, as it is in an area that has been drought-stricken for several years, a great deal of good will be derived from the establishment of an experimental farm there.


John Archibald Campbell: What is the policy of the Government regarding farms which the minister suggests might be established this year?	Will they be established in old
settled districts or in new districts, perhaps, where there are few settlers, with the idea of showing what those districts might produce?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: These matters will all be taken into consideration before a decision is reached as to the location of any new farms that may be undertaken. I am un-
189J
able to state at present where these farms will be located. The suggestion of the hon. member which has some merit in it will be carefully considered.


John Archibald Campbell: I should like to follow up my remarks by saying that there is a district in northern Manitoba which is generally looked upon as being not much good agriculturally, but we are quite satisfied that proper demonstration would show it to be a real agricultural district. It is not the only district in Canada which had hitherto been regarded in that light and yet has proved to be good. There are other districts which if gone after systematically could be shown to be good productive districts.


Mr. J. FERNAND FAFARD (translation) :: Does the minister intend to do away with the duties now levied on fertilizers?


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: Order. This has nothing to do with experimental farms.


Joseph-Fernand Fafard: Mr. Chairman, I think
that the question of fertilizers has much to do with experimental farms.


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: The item under consideration concerns the establishment and maintenance of experimental farms, and surely it has nothing to do with fertilizers, or with duties to be paid on fertilizers. When we reach that item I shall draw the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact.


Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: How many experimental farms are there in the province of Quebec?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Four experimental farms and stations: at Lennoxville, Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, Kamouraska, and Spirit Lake. There is also a tobacco station at Farnham.
For the administration and enforcement ot the Destructive Insect and Pest Act, $149,2i00.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I suppose this would
include what is popularly known as the potato bug?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Has the department
discovered any effective means of exterminating that visitor?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The department has carried out quite a variety of experiments with different insecticides used in spraying, and the results obtained conclusively show that with proper care and proper treatment the

pest can be pretty well controlled, if not entirely eradicated.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I can understand insecticides killing the pest for the time being, but next year they are as bad as ever. Has the department any knowledge as to whether they remain in the soil and come out again another year, or are they of a migratory character? Can you prevent reproduction of the pest?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The difficulty in completely eradicating the pest in any district is due mainly to the fact that all farmers will not spray. The result is that in every district certain fields remain infected. I do not quite understand the process by which the potato bug is reproduced, but experiments have demonstrated conclusively that if spraying is consistently done by all the farmers in the district the pest can be eradicated.


Frank S. Cahill: How many employees are there in this branch, and what are the salaries? I notice an increase in this item.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The increase is due to increases in salary and in the cost of materials " for experiments. Insecticides of various kinds, as well as the appliances and equipment with which to conduct the experiments, have increased .in price. Provision is also made for three additional assistants, necessitated by new lines of investigational work that are being carried out. I regard this as one of the important branches of our agricultural w'ork, and it is really very interesting to follow the experimental work closely and see the results that can be obtained in the destruction of these pests that very greatly depreciate the value of our field crops.


Frank S. Cahill: Would wheat rust come under this head?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, we are carrying out experiments along that line.


Mr. PEDLOW:: This item is for the enforcement of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act. Would the elimination of food profiteers be in order under this heading?


Georges Henri Boivin: Order. The hon. member must be serious.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have not yet been able to find an insecticide that will look after them.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I noticed in the press that a considerable quantity of cold storage provisions was destroyed in Montreal, and

I was wondering if any part of this money would be used for obviating the necessity of destroying foodstuffs.
For the development of the dairying industry, and the improvement of transportation, sale and trade in food and other products, $15'5,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is the same amount as last year. Last year's vote was a little more than sufficient to meet our requirements.


Frank S. Cahill: Are experiments made in dairying at only the Central Farm, or at other farms such as Spirit Lake and Indian Head?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have two experimental stations carrying on that work, one in Ontario, and another in New Brunswick. The Policy of the department for several years past has been to give assistance in the development of a refrigeration service, particularly on the railways.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This item deals with the ''sale and trade in food and other products." Does that imply that the department has to do with cold storage cars, for instance? Does the department furnish cold storage for the transportation of fish and other perishable products which are carried from one place to another?
This matter is of the greatest importance The fishermen along the coasts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island complain that while there are cold storage cars they are very poorly equipped and a very large percentage of fish and other products put into cold storage become unfit for human food before they reach their destination. It is necessary that fish should be kept cool and well iced from one stage of transportation to another until it is finally disposed. It has been complained that this matter is not attended to, and that the ice which is provided when the food leaves the point of shipment melts and is not renewed, the fish being destroyed. If this item is intended to cover [DOT]that particular phase of transportation and bring it within the scope of the Department of Agriculture, I would seriously press upon the minister the necessity of having the most complete system that can possibly be devised. Attention should be given not only to what forces itself upon the department, but every encouragement should he given to see that proper care is exercised in transportation with a view to obtaining the best and most profitable results. I have always thought-and I have brought the matter to the attention of the Govern-

ment several times-that in addition to provision for the proper care of food on transit in cars, there should be a suitable place of reception for the cars themselves when they reach their destination, some sort of cold storage shed where the car might be kept free from contamination until the freight is finally unloaded. These cars, I understand, are sometimes allowed to stand in the yard uncared for and in many cases valuable food such as fish decays and becomes unfit for consumption, and has to he thrown away. I am not quite sure that this comes within the purview of the Department of Agriculture, but the item seems to suggest that it does. If it does, I cannot too strongly urge upon the minister, and in any event upon the department which may deal with the matter, the great importance of this phase of the transportation question.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This item covers only
transportation of dairy products and fruits; it does not include fish, which is covered by an item in the Marine and Fisheries Department. Assistance is given to promote, and also by way of investigation to ascertain, the advantages to the producer from the use of proper refrigeration service in the transportation of these perishable commodities. I quite agree with the leader of the Opposition that the matter is one of very great importance. The advantage of cold storage and proper refrigeration, not only in rail bui in ocean transportation, has not, I venture to say, been fully recognized by the producers and the people generally. To assist in this work the Government, as has already been stated in the House on previous occasions, have made provision for the erection of a public cold storage plant on the harbour front of Montreal under the control of the Board of Harbour Commissioners for that port. Thi9 is to accomplish the very purpose which the leader of the Opposition refers to, namely, that commodities may have a suitable place of storage pending their further shipment. A portion of this grant is used for cow testing in the ordinary dairy herds. We have a staff of inspectors, and farmers are encouraged to test the milk production of their various animals. Very remarkable results have been obtained, and many farmers are weeding out unprofitable animals. There is also provision for cargo inspection in the shipment of perishable commodities overseas. There is a cargo inspection not only at the port of landing but also in the United Kingdom. Self-registering thermometers are used in the storage
compartments of the vessels, and complete records of temperatures are taken on the way across, which records are preserved in the files of the department. Further, there is some small provision for the drafting of plans of suitable dairy buildings. Very often inquiries are received from creameries and cheese factories and persons interested in the dairy business for suggestions as to suitable buildings to meet their requirements, and we are endeavouring to provide-for these necessities'. These are the matters that are mainly covered by the items included under this head. The development of our dairying industry in Canada is of. great importance. Great Britain imports about 500,000,000 pounds of butter annually and Canada supplies a very small portion of that, not more than a few million pounds. Britain's annual imports in eggs are also enormous, but Canada supplies only a few millions of dozens. In order to take full advantage of that market and to hold it we have to do two or three important things. First, we must secure the bost possible standard of quality in our product, and in the various activities of the department we are endeavouring to impress that fact on producers. Second,-and this is of equal importance-there must be proper facilities for shipment. If you ship a carload of butter from Montreal, Halifax or any other port and leave it standing on the wharf for a day or two in hot weather, deterioration sets in and the original quality of the butter can never be restored. Therefore, proper cold storage facilities and proper refrigeration service on vessels are of the greatest importance. The business of this branch generally is to study that field, and by experiment, investigation and inquiry, to discover the best possible methods that can be used to achieve these results.
Mr. McKENZIiE: Have we succeeded in Canada in obtaining a perfectly safe refrigerator car for the transportation of perishable food such as butter or fruit? The difficulty has been that although we have been reputed to have refrigerator cars suitable for the carrying of such goods, the cals used have been altogether inadequate, and great losses have been incurred by the use of them. Is there any experiment or improvement in this matter? Are we advancing any nearer the goal of our ambition to have a perfectly good refrigerator car?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Experiments have been
conducted with ice-cooled cars and brine-tank-cooled cars, and the result would seem


John Albert Sexsmith: Can the minister give
any information about the amount of oleomargarine that has been manufactured and sold in Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The dairy commissioner
informs me that 14,000,000 pounds have been sold in Canada since the prohibition was lifted in October, 1917, of which about 8,000,000 pounds was manufactured in Canada.


John Albert Sexsmith: What firms are manufacturing it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Harris Abattoir and Swift's are the two principal firms manufacturing it.


John Albert Sexsmith: I suppose this oleomargarine is being sold under strict regulations ?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, under strict regulations both as to manufacture and sale.


John Albert Sexsmith: And quality?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: And quality.


Frank S. Cahill: What is the process of acquainting the farmers and dairymen with information pointing to the desirability of testing their cows and so getting a better grade of stock? To what extent does the department encourage that sort of thing?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The number of cows tested last year was 27,000.


Frank S. Cahill: Where?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: All over Canada, but
mainly in the great dairying provinces of Ontario and Quebec. This work is being carried on in conjunction .with cheese factories and creameries where the cheese-maker or the buttermaker has the expert 
knowledge necessary to carry out the test successfully.


John Albert Sexsmith: I understand some
change is being made in the system of cowtesting. A year or two ago there were certain districts in charge of representatives of the department who carried on the work. Is the operation now being carried on as successfully as it was under the old system?	-


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The work was carried out formerly by inspectors appointed by the department but that was abandoned and the department now is endeavouring to have the cheesemakers and buttermakers do the work of the inspectors. The department pays the cheesemaker or buttermaker a small fee per cow tested. That supplements the revenue that he gets from his work, and we find that the work can be extended to a greater degree with less cost than under the other system.


John Albert Sexsmith: What success have you had in getting the cheesemakers to do the work?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: First class.
Towards the encouragement of cold storage warehouses for the better preservation and handling of perishable food products, $25,000.


Frank S. Cahill: What is this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In 1908 by legislative enactment, provision was made for bonusing the building of cold storage warehouses throughout Canada. The regulations provided that the Government, where suoh warehouses should be built, would provide thirty per cent of the cost of construction. This was spread over several years. A total of over $650,000 had been paid out from the time of the inauguration of this policy until the commencement of the war. Since 1914 no new subsidies have been paid with the exception of a contract that had been made prior to the commencement of the war.


Frank S. Cahill: Where?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In Saskatoon. The matter has been under the consideration of the department and recently a decision was reached and embodied In an Order in Council, passed under a provision of the Act, that we will cease giving assistance to the development of private cold storage houses. There is a provision still that assistance may be given in the case of a municipally owned cold storage warehouse and in future the aid will be confined to such.


Walter Davy Cowan: Did the Government
retain any control over the cold storage warehouses for the 30 per cent of the $650,000, which was given to the proprietors?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There was a measure of
control over the storage rates charged by these warehouses. As a matter of fact, the system has not worked out very satisfactorily from the point of 9 p.m. view of the public. Generally the persons or the companies building the storage were engaged in the business themselves and it was somewhat difficult to regulate them under the provisions of the Act. We are considering now the passage of regulations providing for the licensing of cold storage and a little closer control in so far as returns are concerned.


Walter Davy Cowan: I would suppose that some of this cold storage would be reserved for the public use. Could a farmer require a company to give him space or could the company sell the entire space to one or two parties?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Farmers or others can
get space if it is available. But there is no provision that these cold storage warehouses shall .keep a certain amount of space available for ;the public land the result is that generally the private dealer who owns the storage uses the whole of it. As long as there is space available the public can get it.


Walter Davy Cowan: I think in framing the
regulations it would be proper to provide that a certain portion of the space should be reserved for the public. I believe that would very effectually break up the scheme that is being carried out at the present time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As a rule the public get
what they want, but I doubt if the Government has any such power of control as the hon. gentleman suggests should be exercised.


Walter Davy Cowan: I think it should have that power.


Auguste Théophile Léger: How many cold storage warehouses are there in New Brunswick, and where are they situated?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are two in New Brunswick to which we are paying a subsidy, one at Woodstock and the other at St. John.


Frank S. Cahill: The policy of giving
subsidies to private cold storage plants has been abandoned, and I gather that the
minister is not very much in favour of it. What is the Government's present policy now with regard to cold storage plants in Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As I stated this afternoon, the Government has provided something over $1,000,000 for the erection of a cold storage plant on the harbour front at Montreal. As to further developments, while the Government's policy has not been definitely decided upon, my own personal view is that the plan adopted in the case of Montreal should be extended to other shipping points.


Frank S. Cahill: Do you think that it will be extended?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think eventually that it will. There is great merit in the idea that it would be better from the point of view of public cold storage-at any rate so it seems to me-if municipalities would undertake the erection of municipal cold storage plants.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That has already been
done in some Western towns. I recall New Westminster as one in particular, where the corporation of the city and the council of the adjoining municipality have combined for the erection of a mufiicipal cold storage plant which shall be available for the merchants of the city, and the farmers from the adjacent county who want to take advantage of it.


Frank S. Cahill: Does not the minister
think that if the duty were taken off cold storage plants it might facilitate the establishment of numerous plants throughout the country? Does he not think it would be an advantage to do that?


Walter Davy Cowan: What a question !


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it might possibly help.
Air. J. E. iSINCLAIR: Do I understand that this item we .are considering relates to all classes of food commodities, including fish?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


John Ewen Sinclair: The item in the Estimates speaks of cold storage warehouses " for the better preservation and handling of food products," but has no reference to fish?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I stated in reply to the leader of the Opposition (Mr. McKenzie) that it applied only to fruit and dairy products. Fish is provided for in the fisheries
estimates.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: To what extent does the Government exercise supervision over cold storage plants? For instance, the hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) yesterday drew the Government's attention to the large quantity, in fact tons, of foodstuffs that had been destroyed in the city of Montreal. Would not prevention be a much better plan than destruction in such cases? If the Government has the right to supervise the cold storage plants of the country, would it not he wisdom on its part to insist that the owners dispose of the products in cold storage before they become rotten and have to be destroyed ?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The hon. gentleman raises a very broad problem. In the particular case to which he refers, I believe the goods were out of condition before they were stored. I have not the slightest hesitation in stating that if it were not for the existing cold storage plants in Canada probably the loss and deterioration of food stuffs would be very much greater than it is. Whether the Government should exercise that control over food commodities which the hon. gentleman suggests is, at any rate, a debatable question. These cold storage plants, as I understand it, are subject to municipal regulations in that respect, and personally I think it always well for the municipality to deal with such matters rather than apply Federal control to them. In other words, it is better on principle to have the municipal power invoked, wherever it can be done successfully, rather than the Federal power in a matter of that kind.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I understand that under the terms of the vote we are considering, the Government exercises a certain control over these cold storage plants. Is it not a crime to allow good food stuffs to go to waste, and should not the Government step in and compel the owners of the plants to dispose of those food stuffs before they become unfit for human consumption and have to be destroyed ?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A certain control has
been exercised, but, as -I have already stated, it has not been found very effective, particularly after the subsidies have been earned, for the reason that the private owner of the cold storage plant very often requires this space for himself. I think that in the main, however, the public have been very well served. As to the other point which the hon. gentleman raises, and urges upon the Government, namely that it *should take the power to order the sale of commodities at certain times, it has no relation to the item under discussion, and

is a question upon which I am not prepared to express an opinion.


Walter Davy Cowan: Under the Act 'under
which assistance was granted towards the construction of these various cold storage plants, that aid was given to only one plant in each locality, a policy which has not met with the expectations of the Government. I would like to ask, would the existence of that one plant in a municipality be a barrier to that municipality getting the aid that will be extended under the present scheme?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Offhand, I would not
care to give a definite answer at the moment.
Mr. 00WAN:	I hope the minister will
take that point into consideration.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall do so.


Mr. PELLETIER:: Are we to understand that in the case of publicly-owned plants the Government intends to grant subsidies as it has heretofore done in the case of private companies? For example, suppose certain municipalities want to open cold storage plants, does the Government intend to give them assistance to the extent of thirty per cent of the cost of construction, or will it assist them at any time?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It 'will be open to municipalities that desire to establish municipally-owned cold storage plants within their districts to ask for assistance. If they do, their applications will be considered, and if everything is in order a provision exists for extending aid. As I have already stated the policy of granting assistance from the public fund will be discontinued as far as the building of private cold storage plants is concerned.


Frank S. Cahill: The Government has
adopted public ownership in regard to railways, and I would ask if it is intended to adopt the same policy in respect of cold storage plants. I think if the Government did that, government ownership would be much more profitable and beneficial to the public generally than it might possibly be wherf applied in some other directions.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have already stated that the Government has commenced by providing for the erection of a public cold storage plant at Montreal. I stated also that I was not in a position to say what the general policy of the Government in the matter would be.


Frank S. Cahill: Horw can we ascertain the policy of the Government with respect

to numerous matters that have arisen recently in the House? The ministers in charge of the Estimates are always unable to inform us in regard to the general policy of the Government. The Government seems to be largely a Government of individuals, each with his own particular department in mind and unable to say just how far that department may go. This matter of cold storage is one of the most serious questions that confront the Canadian people to-day, and the Government should have a policy with regard to it. The press would lead us to believe that the people controlling the packing and cold storage plants have been making exorbitant profits. Ministers of the Government have defended the character and business ability of some of the gentlemen who have made these exorbitant profits. Conditions in Canada to-day are not satisfactory to the labouring people; they have the impression that the cold storage plants are getting too much out of the producers and the consumers. Probably twenty-five to thirty-three and a third per cent of Canada's produce is wasted for the want of proper storage facilities. The erection of a plant at Montreal wdll not relieve the situation in all other parts of the country. The erection of cold storage plants in the United States or in European countries seems to be a simple matter. Having regard to our long shipping distances and to the general conditions in this country, it would be good business for the Government to find out what it would cost to build plants so that they may be able to give that information to the towns and cities of Canada. A cold storage plant is just as important as the hen-coop or pig-sty. If it is necessary to take the duty off certain articles to promote a policy of this kind the Government can do it, just as they took the duty off farm tractors. The Government should reduce the high cost of living by providing better cold storage facilities and by making the profiteers dispose of their food products before they are allowed to rot. The minister says he has no power to do these things. Why, with the War-time Elections Act and all the other various Acts which have vested power in the Government they are able to do anything. All it requires is courage, and if my hon. friend would show some courage in the direction of satisfying the common people, the poor people, the producers, rather than the profiteers, he would be in very much better grace in Canada than he is to-day. I hope that this matter will receive the serious consideration of the Minister and that he will
look into the storage problem as one of the most serious problems that Canada faces.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend is scarcely consistent; he has quite reversed the position he took a few moments ago, when he criticised very sharply an additional expenditure of $100,000 or so in a vote previously under discussion and urged that we should practice economy. In fact, he impressed me quite strongly by the earnestness of his appeal. Now he suggests that we embark on a policy that would involve the expenditure of millions. If the hon. gentleman wishes my opinion as to the policy that should be adopted-in fact, so far as announcement has been made or anything has been done it is the policy that has been adopted-it is the duty of the federal administration to provide the necessary facilities for the transportation of these products and for the care of them at ocean ports and, generally, to assist in the trade and commerce of the country. If the hon. gentleman has in mind the erection of cold storage plants in every city, town, and village in Canada, the proposition would be a very large one and might better be taken up by municipal enterprise. We have already decided on the policy of giving assistance by way of bonus to municipal cold storage plants. Any town in my hon. friend's constituency, any town or city in Canada, can say to the Government: We propose to erect a municipal cold storage plant and to make it available for the public-for merchants, farmers and all who want to use it; and the Government will upon certain conditions give assistance to the extent of thirty per cent of the cost of erecting such a plant. It would be well to test this policy out for a few years and see what results come from it, rather than to embark on an expenditure that might run into millions.


Frank S. Cahill: Is the Department providing any information of these towns and municipalities that desire cold storage plants?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Dairy and Cold
Storage branch gathers the best information that can secured in regard to this matter, has the information on file, and is prepared to submit plans, suggestions, and expert advice as to the kind of cold storage best suited to particular localities.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Is it the intention of the Government to erect a cold storage plant at Halifax or at some other suitable place in

the Maritime Provinces? Such a plant would toe of great assistance in building up an export trade, il understand the farmers in the Maritime Provinces are labouring under a severe handicap, as they have no cold storage plant and have to ship their products very long distances, such as to Montreal, at heavy expense, with the result, in many cases, that their live stock produces only about half as much as the same live stock would sell at on the Toronto market. If a cold storage plant were built at that point it would be a great help to the live stock industry in that part of Canada.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The suggestion will receive the consideration of the Government. No decision has been reached to erect a cold storage plant at Halifax or any other Atlantic port other than Montreal, where we have made a start.
Mr. LBGE'R: I would favour the idea of a Government-owned cold storage plant in the Maritime Provinces. With that I would urge the Government to have a good inspector to visit it frequently. If I am well informed, there are throughout Canada many cold storage warehouses, full of foodstuffs w.hich are held for higher prices. These cold storage warehouses should be visited by Government inspectors and the foodstuffs should be sold instead of being kept there to enhance prices. In that way the poor people of Canada would be benefited. These trusts or combines get together and fill up these warehouses with foodstuffs which they hold until the price goes up. As was said by an hon. member, a large quantity of foodstuffs was wasted in Montreal toy being held in cold storage for higher prices. The cost of living is getting so high that it is almost impossible for the poor people to live, and the Government should take steps to cause cold storage warenouses to -be emptied at a certain time of the year instead of being kept full of foodstuffs the year round, thus keeping the price up.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am glad the hon. member for Victoria city (Mr. Tolmie) has brought up the question of Government-owned cold storage warehouses at Atlantic ports. I understand the Department of Agriculture for Nova Scotia has been impressing upon the minister that some steps should be taken to erect at Halifax a cold storage plant somewhat similar to the one it is proposed to erect at Montreal. I have nothing to say against the building of a plant at Montreal,

but I was told that- one of the reasons why this cold storage plant was 'being erected at Montreal was to furnish facilities for the shipment of -chilled or other beef at all seasons of the year. The minister knows well that .shipping facilities at the port of Montreal are limited in season. For a considerable portion of the year that port is frozen up and vessels cannot come to or go away from it. Navigation is open in the harbour of Halifax 365 days of the year every year, and I am sure the same thing may be said of St. John, although not to the same easy extent as at Halifax. I do not know if there are any hon. members from New Brunswick here -who may criticise me if I say anything about the high tide difficulties of the St. John harbour. It is, however, open all the year round and ships can come to and go from it. If the Government have decided that it is proper to spend $1,000,000 for the purpose of erecting a cold storage plant to be auxiliary to transhipment across the Atlantic, that plant should be at a place which shipping can go to and depart from at all seasons. That is, I think, a strong argument in favour of such facilities being erected at the ports of Halifax and St. John, or, if not at both, at least at one of them. In- view of the fact that the Nova Scotia Department of Agriculture -has put in its claim-and I have not heard that any particular claim was sent in from New Brunswick, although the one would require it just as much as the other-the minister should give some attention to the very legitimate request put forward. I understand the hon. member for Victoria city who has brought this matter to the attention of the minister is the president of a -certain association that has to deal with agricultural matters throughout the province.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The Canadian National Live -Stock Council, made up of representatives from the Eastern and Western Live Stock Unions.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: My hon. friend is an authority on the question and I am glad he has brought this matter up. I should like to point out to the minister an extraordinary thing that happened in Nova Scotia last year. The farmers in several counties such <as Pictou and Antigonish, the latter being exclusively a farming community, -are excellent farmers. They discovered that the hay crop was not up to standard last

year, and tliey were obliged to sell off hundreds of their live stock. They sold them to a gentleman who could do nothing with them but take them to a place where they could be slaughtered and put into cold storage. As there was no cold storage warehouse in the Maritime Provinces, those cattle were carried alive to Montreal or Toronto, slaughtered and the meat kept in cold storage all winter. The beef was then shipped back over nearly 1,500 miles of railroad to Nova Scotia and sold to our miners, lumbermen and other people. The minister can readily understand the enormous increase that must necessarily be put upon the first cost of that article on account of its being handled in that manner.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are no abattoir
plants in the Maritime Provinces?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: No, but I understand
those interested in the cattle trade are quite ready to build abattoirs if cold storage facilities were provided, but it is too expensive for them to erect a cold storage plant, and they are, therefore, looking to the Government to do so. It would be a good investment and a good policy for the Government to build such a plant. Does the minister intend in connection with the cold storage plant at Montreal, to provide a place where a car could be run in?
In order to do that, the lower story of the building would have to be made something like a railway yard. If that could be provided, it would certainly save a great deal of handling and re-handling of the contents. It might be that these facilities would be made use of only once in a while, but they would certainly 'be a splendid thing to have. I have particularly in mind what happens to our cars of fish from the Maritime Provinces. Friday is the big fish day in cities, and Thursday or early Friday morning is the best time to sell a car of fish in Montreal or Toronto. If the car happens to get there on Monday or Tuesday and has to stand in the yard during the early part of the week, when there is not so much demand for fish, my information is, the fish deteriorates and becomes unfit for sale, often resulting in a total loss. If there was a place in the cold storage building into which a car could be run and kept until its contents were disposed of, the shippers would feel secure against waste, and it would be a great encouragement to them. If this can be brought about, and the plans are not too far advanced, I would certainly suggest that limited accommodation, at all events, of
this character should be supplied in any cold storage warehouse that is to be erected.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The cold storage warehouse to be erected in Montreal will be under the control of the harbour commissioners. I know that they had competent engineers making inquiries, and the Dairy and Cold Storage Commissioner, Mr. Rud-dick, accompanied one of the engineers to several cities in the United States to Iook over the most'up-to-date cold storage plants to be found in them. I have no doubt that as a result of their inquiries the most modern and up-to-date plant will be built in Montreal. I do not think the proposal advanced by the leader of the Opposition that a car should be run into the building, and the whole stored as a carload, is a practicable one. In fact, I think it would be very difficult, probably impossible, to carry out his suggestion. The most up-to-date facilities, however, will be provided for taking care of fish, fruit and any other perishable commodities that are shipped.
Now a word as to why Montreal wa3 selected. Montreal, of course, is a summer port, and it is during the summer months when temperatures are high that the need for cold storage is greatest. For that reason Montreal was selected as the initial point. There is already a cold storage plant in St. John, under the control of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Halifax is not as yet supplied with such a plant. I quite sympathize with the view expressed by the leader of the Opposition as to the necessity of proper abattoir and cold storage facilities in the province of Nova Scotia, or at any rate in one of the Maritime Provinces, and I presume Nova Scotia would be the most suitable, in order to encourage the development of the live stock industry in that part of Canada. It is quite true, as he has stated, that Nova Scotia cattle are at times shipped to Montreal for slaughter and the beef re-shipped for sale to the people of Nova Scotia. That on the face of it is an economic waste. At the request of the Provincial Department of Agriculture for Nova Scotia we have sent some of our officials to that province to make, in conjunction with the provincial officials, a survey of the whole situation with a view to ascertaining the best line of action to follow.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I am sure that every hon. member of the House must have been deluged, as I was, during the early part of the session with petitions, signed by farmers throughout the province of On-

tario in favour of a cold storage plant for the city of Toronto. It was requested that these petitions be presented to the Government, and I am surprised that no member for the city of Toronto has spoken tonight in favour of a cold storage plant for that city. Have those interested in the matter in the city of Toronto approached the minister, and if so, what decision has he arrived at?


Mr.   OKEEAB@: Petitions are the easiest things in the world to secure.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I did not ask for them; they were sent to me.


Mr.   CEEBAE@: As far as I recall we have had no requests from the city of Toronto for assistance in this respect, probably due to the fact that there is already a municipal cold storage in that town, in addition to several private plants.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I think the minister should withdraw that statement. Toronto would be very much offended at being spoken of as a "town."
Health of Animals, $465,000.


Mr. PETEE McGIBBON:: I would draw the minister's attention to a very serious state of affairs which was mentioned in the Committee on Agriculture. The statement was made there that during last year tuberculosis among beef cattle had increased, I think, from three to over four per cent, and in hogs from nine to nineteen per cent. That is a most alarming state of affairs, and I would ask what steps the department is taking to check this disease.


Mr.   CEEEAE@: Tuberculosis amongst
cattle has received the consideration of the qualified officials of the department, and the whole question has been closely and attentively studied. It is my intention to submit Supplementary Estimates for $50,000 for the-purpose of inaugurating a system of accredited herds for pure-bred cattle.
The tuberculosis trouble exists I believe in every country in the world. The United States authorities have recently undertaken a method of handling it and last year ap- * propriated $500,000 for the purpose. I have been informed this year according to their Estimates it was intended to increase the appropriation to $1,000,000. I do not need to deal with the technical aspect of the plan they had in view. If the Committee desires further information in regard to that matter I am quite sure the hon. member for Victoria City (Mr. Tolmie) who has made a close study of the matter will be pleased to

give it. The matter is receiving the attention of qualified officials of the department. The problem is a somewhat difficult one to deal with.


Peter McGibbon: What is the
cause of this rapid increase in the disease? There must be something unusual .about it. Have the officials of the department endeavoured to ascertain the cause?


Mr.   CEEEAE@: I do not know that there has been any rapid increase in the spread of the disease, and I am unable to give specific causes for any increase?


Peter McGibbon: I would call
the minister's attention to the statistics. I think there was an increase of 9 per cent in hogs.


Mr.   CEEEAE@: What statistics?


Peter McGibbon: They were
given in the Agricultural Committee, and it is a most alarming state of affairs if there is going to be an increase in that ratio or anything like it.


Mr.   CEEEAE@: I have no information as to that.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That increase was over a period of six years. I am not sure of the exact figures given at that time, but I think that is it. I certainly would like to compliment the department on the distinct advance they are making in appropriating $50,000 for the purpose of introducing the accredited herd system. If we can hope to export cattle to the United States and hold that market, and if the embargo is removed from cattle going to Great Britain and we desire to ship cattle there, we must be sure that we send only healthy animals to those two markets; otherwise we cannot expect to retain them. The accredited herd system will give the advantage to the herd that is kept clean, and I sincerely hope that the breeders of the country will avail themselves of this opportunity to the fullest extent. I desire to congratulate the Health of animals Branch of the department on the work they have accomplished during the past few years. On several occasions we have had very serious outbreaks of infectious and contagious diseases immediately along the boundary line, and in nearly all cases none of the diseases have entered Canada., By preventing disease in that way through a close system of inspection we have been saved the loss of millions of dollars, and when we consider the small appropriation-I see there is an increase to a certain extent this year- and compare that appropriation with the

enormous value of the live stock in Canada, something between one and one and a half billions of dollars, it will be recognized that a very valuable work is being accomplished by this branch of the Department of Agriculture at a nominal cost.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is there any simple
process by which an ordinary farmer can detect tuberculosis in herds or in the individual cow?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Only by the tuberculin
test which has proved successful.


Mr. MOLLOY:: Is this grant for salaries or for compensation for animals destroyed, or for both? The amount is $465,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It includes both; $70,000
is for compensation.
For the administration and enforcement of the Meat and Canned Foods Act, ?4 42,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The increase here is due
to the general increase in wages and to enlargement of the work. Under the Act qualified veterinary inspectors along with lay inspectors are kept in every abattoir and meat packing plant and canning establishment in Canada in order to insure the purety of the foods produced therein.


Frank S. Cahill: Has it not been customary for some years to keep inspectors in packing plants?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. I am accounting
for the increase in the vote which hon. members will see amounts to $63,000. It is due to the necessity of paying higher wages and salaries and also to an extension of the work.. More inspectors are required every year.


John Patrick Molloy: What salaries are paid
the inspectors?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The salaries, I am informed, are from $1,400 to $1,800 for veterinarians.


John Patrick Molloy: It commences at $1,400?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Frank S. Cahill: I suppose this vote includes the inspection of twelve-ounce pounds of lobster cans under the law which my hon. friend's colleague is passing to make twelve ounces of lobster a pound. Does it include all canned goods?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It does not include canned fish, which comes under the Marine and Fisheries Department. It includes all other canned goods.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Does the minister know of any other class of producers who claim that twelve ounces of food make a pound avoirdupois?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know. I might be inclined to agree with the hon. member off hand, but the matter is not in this department and I must refer him to the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There must be some canned commodities that it is intended to inspect or this amount would not be asked for. Do those who come within the jurisdiction of this department, and who engage in the canning of food other than lobster, say that twelve ounces make a .pound avoirdupois?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I can assure the hon. gentleman that the Department of Agriculture insists on sixteen ounces to the pound.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: There is another industry that puts up its product in twelve ounces, and sometimes ten-ounce pounds. I refer to the manufacture of wool, which is put up in twelve-ounce and ten-ounce pounds, and even in eight-ounce pounds, according to the demands of the retail merchant.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is not canned.
Publications Branch, $36,300.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In this branch I think there is scope for improvement. I have been attempting to circulate the literature of the department for a great many years, and formerly I used to get a fair supply of material for distribution. The last time I applied, about two years ago, I was informed that I could get only a very limited supply, and that I would have to submit the names of my addressees to the department. Dealing with the large number of farmers to whom I would have to give literature T realized that a limited quantity would be only a source of embarrassment to me. I might select a few names and address material to them while the others would receive nothing, and from a political standpoint it would be better for me to send none at all. So that I did not send any. I do not think that members should be called upon to attend to a matter of this kind. Once the information is put into shape by the officers of the department who go to the pains of collecting their material the hardest part of the work is over, particularly when the literature is printed; and the department should see to it that this literature finds its way to the agriculturists of the country. It is a pity that tons of this material should be wasted

from year to year, and I strongly urge upon the minister that the officers who have charge of this branch should acquaint themselves with the names and addresses of the farmers from coast to coast. It is a large undertaking, but they can very readily get this information by applying to the agricultural societies in the several provinces. In this way they would get at least 75 or 80 per cent of the names of the farmers and as they have no postage to pay it would be a comparatively simple matter to send literature to the farmers. I wish to impress upon the minister the desirability of seeing that this information reaches those whom it will benefit. Undoubtedly it would be useful and might stimulate the farmer to greater efforts in the way of increased production, besides giving him new ideas. At all events it would impress him with the idea that the department is taking an interest in him and has his prosperity at heart. I know that only very few farmers of Canada receive any literature from the department. I would like to see literature relating to the farm finding its way into more houses and into the hands of more farmers than at present, for it would certainly have beneficial results.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are probably between 650,000 and 700,000 farmers in Canada, and the publications branch have on their files the names of 240,000 farmers who are supplied with the class of bulletin they desire. I have found in my experience of several years that the best results are always obtained when the person who desires literature makes application for it in some form or other. Very often you get names from such a source as the voters' lists, and send circulars or pamphlets to the addresses there given, with the result that a large percentage of the literature thus sent finds its way into the waste basket. The evidence of interest on the part of the person applying for literature and the best guarantee that he will make proper rise of it when he gets it, is the fact that he goes to the trouble of applying for it. However, I entirely agree with the leader of the Opposition as to the importance of the matter.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I do not quite agree
with the minister as to the way in which this matter should be attended to. Possibly his view is one way of looking at it, but it seems to suggest the argument that we should not send missionaries to the distant islands and remote parts of the earth until they have made application for

some one to go and preach to them the gospel of the Nazarene. That is not the way in which the gospel is propagated. We send missionaries to the heathen and wake him up to the necessity of looking to the salvation of his soul, and in like manner we should send to the farmers, who need the information that we can give them, such literature as will be of benefit to them. If we did this we would create a desire on their part for more and more information, and applications would then be made in abundance. In many departments of life we are content to keep in the old rut, and if we do not assimilate new ideas we are apt to rest content with what was done by our grandfathers and fathers. The aim of the department should be to create a new interest in farming and they should not spare a few more dollars in putting necessary pamphlets and other useful records within the reach of the farmers if by so doing they can encourage them and stimulate an interest in rural life in Canada.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The missionary does not
always act on his own initiative. I believe that Holy Writ records that the great St. Paul heard a call from Macedonia and proceeded thither, and I believe also that when we send missionaries to foreign lands we usually have repeated and earnest calls from those places for additional missionaries. The same applies in this matter. That is precisely the same method as we are following in the distribution of this literature. We aim to get it into the hands of the community, a desire for literature is produced and it is sent out.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I must correct my hon. friend on the Pauline doctrine. The gospel was preached at Macedonia but some of the preachers went away and those of the Christian religion felt that somebody must come to them and help them along. Hence the Macedonian cry.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend has raised the Macedonian cry to-night.


John Ewen Sinclair: Is the same policy of distribution followed in regard to the Agricultural Gazette as is followed in reference to the bulletins published by the department?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Agricultural Gazette has only a limited circulation. It is distributed to teachers and colleges, agricultural institutes and district representatives in the various provinces. There are also a number of subscribers who pay a small

annual subscription. I am unable to state what the total circulation is.


John Ewen Sinclair: What is the fee?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: One dollar a year.


John Ewen Sinclair: What does it cost the department to publish the Gazette?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is an appropriation of $20,000. That covers printing, editorial *work and generally the carrying on of the paper.


John Ewen Sinclair: I understood you to say that was the appropriation. Is it all expended?	<


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


John Ewen Sinclair: Does that include the expenditure over and above the amount received from subscriptions?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The return from the subscription fees is very small indeed. Practically the whole circulation is a free circulation amongst agricultural institutes, agricultural representatives, etc.


John Ewen Sinclair: It seems to me that the policy of keeping a paper like that going is of somewhat doubtful soundness. The spending of $20,000 a year for a publication that is simply put on the shelves of libraries and places of that kind, and *which really is of no benefit to the rank and file of the agricultural community, seems scarcely to be justified. It would appear to me that the policy of keeping up a publication of that kind for the purposes outlined is hardly consistent with the objects that we should have before us in voting these expenditures.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: il think, perhaps, the criticism of the hon. gentleman has some weight. I am not altogether convinced of the present practical value of the Gazette. There is, however, this to say, that many special articles appear in this journal. For instance, the results of some experimental work that may have been carried on by the entomological department, as an illustration, or in any particular branch, or in some other field of activity in connection with agriculture, are often recorded in articles published in the Gazette. These articles go out to the agricultural district representatives. I believe that in practically all cases they keep their files complete and the Gazette really becomes a sort of reference library to these workers. This undoubtedly has value. I am not certain that the same results, or practically as good results could not be obtained if the Gazette
were published quarterly instead of monthly, and that is under consideration now.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is not this journal of recent introduction? How many years ago was it commenced?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: About six years ago it was brought into being.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: 
Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is precisely what we are finding out. We have over 240,000 names on our mailing list, and the total number of bulletins of all kinds distributed by the Publications Branch was very close to 3,000,000 last year. They were distributed at the request of 119,000 people.
Mr. LEiGER: These pamphlets should be sent out in quantity to the provincial governments. The provincial governments are in touch with agricultural societies and they know where to direct the pamphlets to produce the best results. If the provincial government shipped them direct to the agricultural societies the farmers would have the benefit of them. Otherwise the Government does not know the names of the farmers throughout the country and they cannot be reached.

Mr. - FAFARD:	I would ask the hon.
minister if there is a French publication for the French population.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, we issue the publications in French.
International Institute of Agriculture-to assist in maintenance thereof and to provide representation thereat-$10,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This vote, I would like
to explain, is to provide for our membership in the International Institute of Agriculture at Rome, with which practically all the countries of the world that are engaged to any extent in agriculture are identified. This vote is simply to cover our contributions thereto and to meet our expenses in com ection therewith. The institute gathers agricultural statistics from all countries, and compiles and publishes them, and in that way seeks to disseminate accurate and complete information as to what is going on in these countries.
M. J. E. SINCLAIR: Does the vote include the expenses of sending a delegate to the meetings?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


John Ewen Sinclair: How long is it
since Canada sent a delegate to the meetings of the Institute?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am advised that no
delegate has been sent since the war broke out, but the sending of the delegate will now in all likelihood be resumed.
For the development of the live stock industry-$800,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In connection with
this vote, could the minister suggest any way by which the farmers throughout the country could obtain pure bred stock more cheaply than it is possible for them to do at present? I do not know very much about the subject, but I am told that the prices charged for pure bred animals are very high, and practically it is beyond the reach of the ordinary farmer to obtain them. I would like to know from the minister if there is any combine or corner in connection with pure bred stock? There are, of course, large farmers and wealthy people who "play the market" to some extent in connection with stock at this time. Perhaps I should not use the expression "play the market", but many such persons make a hobby of raising fine cattle and horses and selling them at fancy prices. That is very good and we ought to be thankful, doubtless, to the people whose predilections lead them in that direction; but what I would like to know is, how can pure bred stock

be placed within reach of the ordinary farmers of the country without their paying such high prices as are charged? The Government may perhaps be taking some action along this line at present. I am satisfied, however, that there is riot enough of it done, at. all events in Nova Scotia, especially in the eastern part. There is need of further steps in this direction because I know that our cattle in many agricultural sections of 'the island of Cape Breton are not as good as they were twenty-five or thirty years ago. There is growing need of a revival in the matter of improved live stock, need of a better class of cattle and a better appreciation by the farmers of the advantage of having good stock rather than poor stock.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The point which the hon. gentleman has brought up is an important one. The federal Department of Agriculture does give specific assistance towards the promotion of the better breeding of live stock of all kinds. As far as cattle, sheep, and swine are concerned, it, is given in this way: Provision is, made for the supplying of pure-bred sires in each of these classes to associations of farmers that organize themselves and conform to certain regulations with which compliance is easy. The total number of sires that have been distributed in Canada is over two thousand. In other words, there were about two thousand of these associations in existence last year. Of that number, I am sorry to say, there were only twenty-nine in the province of Nova Scotia. The Department of Agriculture in that province carries on a somewhat similar work, but I am not at the moment able to give information as to the extent to which it does so, or as to the degree of success it has encountered. A very considerable portion of the expenditure contemplated by this vote is for this purpose. In the case of horses a percentage of the service fee is paid by the department, where the association is regularly formed, and its application has been regularly placed with the department. In all these cases as careful attention as possible is given to the securing of sound sires of the best quality available. There is no disguising the fact, however, that the general standard of our live stock, in cattle particularly,-in the beef typeu at any rate, -in Canada, is not as high as it might be. However, I believe that with .the general spread of knowledge and the insistence on the need of improvement, we will make greater progress in the future than we have

made in the past. We very frequently find, as every hon. member knows, farmers who are very largely indifferent to the type of animals that they have. They do not seem to realize as clearly as they should that it costs as much and even more to raise a scrub animal than it does to prodluce stock of a good type.


Edward Thomas Wordon Myers: I notice an increase in this vote of $200,000. Is the increase due to a greater number of applications for purebred sires?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not altogether. Some cf
the increases are due to advances in salaries and wages that have taken place in every branch of the department's work. I may say, however, for the information of the hon. gentleman (iMr. Myers) that we reduced the Estimate last year for this purpose by $200,000 or more. The present increase is to bring the appropriation back to what the amount was previous to that time. We restricted the work as much as possible last year in order to economize, tout owing to the importance of the work, the vote has been restored to the old figure.


Edward Thomas Wordon Myers: A number of applications from the constituency which I represent were delayed in reaching the department. I believe the money asked for here will be well spent in improving the live stock of our country, but I think a little leniency or consideration should have been given to the associations referred to. I have had my attention drawn particularly to the case of one association where the secretary was ill at the time the application should have been forwarded. I brought this fact before the department, but no consideration was given to the case. I think that was very unfair indeed. These men had formed an association at considerable cost to themselves, but owing to the fact that the secretary was ill at the time the application should have gone in, it was somewhat late in reaching the department, and it was declined. Now the intention of this vote toeing to help the farmers, there should have been a certain amount of leniency displayed in that particular case-in fact two instances of the kind were brought to my notice. Of course, if there are regulations governing this matter, they should be observed, but in such cases as I am referring to, the fact that delay in making the application was caused by illness should have been taken into consideration.
son for the delay, if I remember rightly, was the prevalence of influenza in the district concerned. But it is important that regulations, particularly in governmental administration, should be lived up to. When a department establishes a definite regulation for the governance of its work and that regulation is not adhered to, that moment the department is in difficulty. The regulation which the hon. gentleman criticises provides that these applications must be lodged with the department prior to April 1; in the case to which he refers the application came in ten days or two weeks late. Fully fifty similar applications came in after the first of April, running all the way from one to three days late up to five weeks late. If you admit one and refuse another, where are you going to draw the line? If you admit them all, what is the use of the regulation? If we violate the regulation for one, we must violate it for all, or we shall be charged with discrimination, favoritism, political pull and all the other things of a like nature. While I regret to disappoint my hon. friend, nevertheless I am sure that on reflection he will see the reasonableness of the position taken by the department in the matter.


Edward Thomas Wordon Myers: It would be a different
matter if we had had an ordinary year, but in view of the scourge of the epidemic I still believe that some discretion would have been exercised by the department.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Of course, the reasons
given for delay would be as numerous as the delayed applications. If the secretary of the association, as the hon. member says, was ill, the president or some other member could have written the department, and that is all that would have been necessary.


Mr. DAVIS:: I happen to be interested in a similar case. I quite understand that when an inspector goes into a district it would disorganize his work if he had to go back after a fixed date. In the case to which I refer the animal was inspected last year, and it was simply a matter of the application being delayed because of the influenza epidemic. Why could there not be some relaxation of the regulation in that case so that the application might be accepted later?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If you violate the regulation in one case, how are you going to avoid violating it in other cases?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot agree with the Mr. DAVIS: Could you not make a conclusion of the hon. gentleman. The rea- special exception of a case like this?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have found in imy brief experience that special exceptions in Governmental administration are always exceedingly dangerous. I appreciate the position of this association, but each of the fifty applicants who were late could put up just as good an argument why his case should have special consideration.


Edward Thomas Wordon Myers: Possibly the minister does not take into consideration the loss occasioned by not having the privilege of using a sire in a particular year.


John Patrick Molloy: The sheep industry has taken quite a bound in Manitoba during the last year or two. What is the procedure with regard to getting pure-bred sires for the purpose of breeding sheep?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Provision is made for assistance in breeding in the case of sheep as well as of swine. The provision for sheep is *17,000.


John Patrick Molloy: Are the sires sold to the breeder?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, they are placed at the disposal of the association after it is regularly formed and complies with the regulations. The basis of distribution is the same as in the case of cattle.


John Patrick Molloy: I do not understand how an association could handle the rams. One man may have twenty sheep, and another five hundred. How many sires-do you send out? You cannot travel a ram around the country as you would a stallion?


Mr. JOHNSTON:: Is it not the opinion of the minister that some amendment to the regulation would be in order? I have a case similar to that mentioned by the member for Neepawa (Mr. Davis) where a club that had been organized in 1918, wished to organize for 1919, using the same horse that they had used the previous year. This, Mr. Chairman, is a case where the same men wishing to use the same hoTse this year were refused permission by the department because they were some days late in getting their application in. I do not see why they should not have been granted the right to go ahead.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Why did they not get their application in on time?


John Frederick Johnston: They had some excuse; I do not know what it was. But it seems to me that where there is no change from the previous year, a delay, of a day or two ought not to affect the case.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I hope that the committee will not think I am taking too strong a position in this matter. The member for Last Mountain (Mr. Johnston) has brought up a case, which in his judgment deserves as much consideration as the case of my hon. friend from Kindersley (Mr. Myers). But as I have said, each of the fifty applicants would consider that they had equally good arguments to advance in favour of the acceptance of their application. I venture to say that in all fifty oases the application could have been sent in on time if more careful attention had been given to the matter by the officers or by some member of the association. I have no doubt that the difficulties of getting the applications in were not such that they could not easily have been overcome. If there is any virtue in a regulation, it ought to be livedmp to; if not, we might as well throw it away.


Peter McGibbon: What particular virtue is there in the regulation?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The work has to be planned out; and we must set a specified date in order that we may arrange to have the inspections completed. We may have applications coming in the last week in March from a hundred associations; we have to arrange our distributions and inspections accordingly.


John Patrick Molloy: Does the Government sell pure bred sires to the breeders or how are they handled in the community? How many would be lent to a district in which there were say 500 or 1,000 sheep? There must be some basis. How are the sheep and hogs handled? Supposing I want a pure-bred ram of a certain breed, can I get it? Do I have to pay for it or is it loaned to me, and do other people have the use of it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A club must have at least ten members before a sire is alloted to it, providing they conform to the regulations which are simple. I presume if one of the members had a flock of 100 sheep, he would probably have several sires with his flock The whole purpose of this assistance is to encourage the small breeder, the farmer who has two or three or six or a dozen sheep on his farm. Those are the farmers that are in the main taking advantage d! this scheme.


Mr. SHAW:: Is there a limit to the price paid by the department for sires purchased and if so, what is the usual price paid?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We endeavour to get as good a type of animal as can be purchased,

and I couid not say what the average price would be. In stallions prices would run all the way from $500 to $1,000.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I am very much interested [DOT]n what the leader of the Opposition (Mr. McKenzie) had to say about the cost of pure-bred sires. Under present conditions my experience has been, not working in this line of work as a hobby but rather as a business, that it costs at least from $150 to $200 to produce a yearling bull. If that price or even a bare advance on that may seem rather high to the purchaser of the animal, still when that animal is taken into a herd of twenty or thirty cows, the improvement in the first year, or at least by the second year, will easily pay for the initial outlay. For the man who is unable to pay out that much money for a sire, the Government has made it easy to get one through the plan which has been described to-night. Ten men can get together and secure the services of a sire. In British Columbia this has worked with great advantage, particularly in districts along the line of the Grand Trunk Pacific and other isolated places where settlers have just gone in, where they have not got their farms cleaned up and where they are too poor to pay for a sire. Under ordinary circumstances in ten years from now these men would still be breeding scrub cattle; but by being afforded an opportunity of securing the services of a pure-bred sire under this plan, in five or ten years they have a fine lot of high-grade cattle worth far more money than the scrub cattle would be, and in addition to that ten men have been educated to the value of using pure-bred sires. When they are able to buy sires in future they will prefer to buy pure-breds instead of grades. While our live stock in Canada is worth a great deal of money and while we have made certain advances, we are still in our swad-dli g clothes as regards possible developments. It will be generally admitted that the quality of beef in this country is inferior when compared with that of Australia or of the Argentine Republic. It has, however, been proved on one or two occasions that we are quite capable of producing beef of first-class quality. I might cite the case of one or two Ontario breeders who have been able to take steers down to the great International show in Chicago and win the sweepstakes there in competition with the whole continent. On another occasion, Mr. James D. McGregor, of Brandon, Manitoba, took down a steer one year and won the sweepstakes, and the next
190}
year he took down a full brother of the first one and won the sweepstakes again, the only occasion when that was done by a single feeder or breeder. I am credibly informed that our beef, as we produce it, is very much inferior to that of the Argentine, as I have described, and that their average run of chilled beef placed on the market in the old country is equal to the average run of our Christmas beef to be found on the markets of this country. I am ialso informed that in the inspected abattoirs of Canada not more than 10 per cent of beef that is passed through is fit to export to the old country in competition with beef from the other countries I have mentioned. This shows that we have a vast field for improvement which can only be made by the use of pure-bred sires, and then by proper feeding and finishing before our animals are sent to the market. The Argentine stock raisers have never hesitated to pay high prices for bulls, in fact *they go into the markets of Great Britain and pay more than the stock raisers of any other country, and they have recently paid as high as $30,000 for a single animal. In that country you will fine herds of from 1,000 to 3,000 head very uniform throughout, whereas in this country you would find a few hundred really good animals and the rest would be very ordinary, showing that there is a great deal to be done in the improvement of beef cattle in Canada. How this should be done is a matter for deep consideration by the officials of our Department of Agriculture. One way to do it would be to begin at the bottom by inducing stock raisers to breed better animals and put them on the market in better condition. To do this there is no better plan that I know of than to offer liberal prizes at our fat stock shows and live stock exhibitions. This plan has been carried out for many years at 'Chicago, and the quality of the beef has steadily improved. In addition to this the man who has a carload of beef in better finished condition to offer for sale will receive two or three cents a pound more than the man who has his beef in an unfinished state.
Coming to dairy cattle, I cannot pass without drawing the attention of the committee to the fact that one of our Canadian breeders, Mr. I. B. Hanmer, of Norwich, Ontario, has recently bred a cow which has broken the world's record, having produced just under 52 pounds of butter in seven days. Hon. members will realize what achievement this cow has made when they take into consideration the fact that the average dairy cow of Canada would not pro-

duce more than about one pound per day, while this cow averaged between seven and eight pounds per day. We have in this country cattle that have produced over 30,-(000 pounds of milk in one year. The average dairy cow of Canada produces less than 4,000 pounds, showing what a splendid field for improvement there is, and this can be accomplished only by the use of pure-bred sires and also by feeding in a way such as I have described and by the dissemination of agricultural education.
Coming to sheep, I think this country is in a most disgraceful condition. We have less than 3,000,000 sheep in the whole of the Dominion as compared with 90,000,000 to 100,000,000 in Australia and about 40,000,000 in Great Britain. Here is an excellent opportunity to develop a valuable industry, an industry that will be valuable not only to the straight stock farmer but to the grain farmer of the West in keeping down weeds. Sheep are a class of live stock that can be produced very largely on the waste material that is to be found on the farm.
The condition of our pork products is very satisfactory. A report was brought back by Mr. Arkell to the effect that Canadian bacon now stands very high on the British market. The Britishers apparently did not begin to realize how good our Canadian bacon was until they had been forced to eat the fat bacon that is produced in the United States, and it behooves the Department of Agriculture to use the utmost care to see that this market is developed in every possible way and also that we send over only first-class material so that we can retain the market and build up a splendid outlet for Canadian live stock products in the future.
I think that the stimulation of the use of pure bred sires all over the country is most important. Just as long as we use scrub sires and do not care whether we improve our -cattle or not, we shall be moving around in a circle and shall not get anywhere; but if an intelligent system is followed, and pushed to the fullest extent, I am sure we shall get excellent results. I commend the department for the action they are taking. I know they have a number of live officials who are working along these lines and I am sure a great deal can be accomplished by following the course I have outlined.


Ira Eugene Argue: I was pleased to hear the minister a few moments ago emphatically lay down the rule that he was not going to make any exceptions. I wish to say a word about agricultural societies. We

have two classes of fairs in the West, the A land the B class. Regina, Saskatoon and cities of that size -are in th-e A class, and have been getting $5,000 a year assistance.	The Regina fair last year had
a surplus of about $22,000 to hand over to the city. In the B class there are some five or six different fairs, and a limit is laid down as to the amount of prize money they must pay out to participate in this grant-. If no exceptions are to be made, that is all right; but once you begin to make exceptions the trouble starts. Exceptions have been made in the case of some of the fairs. Some fairs which did not (Comply with '-the regulations have been granted 'assistance, and others that did not comply but applied for the grant were refused assistance, or at all events, we have not been able to get any definite answer yet. I should like the minister to lay down some definite rule as to what he is going to do about these fairs. If he is not going to follow any particular rule, but give the money out indiscriminately, I think -Swift (Current and one or two other places should participate with the others who have got the grant.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 'Under the regulations
for grants to fairs the provision was that where $4,000 of their own money was spent in utility prizes for livestock the department would assist to the extent of 75 per cent of $2,500. Prior to 1918 they secured the whole $2,500, but in order to economize and make our funds stretch as far as possible that grant was reduced last year by 25 per cent. There were, of course, a number of fairs that thought they were entitled to this grant and found difficulty in getting it. We appreciate the position the fairs are in at the present time. The hon. member for Swift Current and the hon. member for Battleford have both made strong representation upon the matter, and about a week or ten days ago I instructed the officials of the Branch to carefully survey the field again with a view to reducing the amount of expenditure that was necessary in order to participate in the grant. After careful consideration they have recommended for the present year a reduction of $400. Consequently, any fair that last year spent $3,600 or over in utility prizes will participate in the grant this year.


James Alexander Robb: Has	the minister any
information as to the increase or decrease in the number of cattle in Canada during the last three or four years?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The officials advise me
there has been a considerable and steady increase in the total number of cattle. The total number of cattle in Canada now is estimated to be over 10,000,000, and the increase during the past four years has been between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000. In some of the western provinces the increase has been very noticeable.


John Patrick Molloy: Are purebred sires ever
sold outright by the Government?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: When the department
desires to get rid of a sire on account of age or some other reason he is sold outright, but not to clubs.


Ira Eugene Argue: Referring again to fairs,
as I stated a moment ago, the Regina fair last year had a surplus of $22,000 over and above their expenses. Now the B class fairs are doing just as much for the building up of the livestock industry as the A class fairs, and the larger cities like Regina do not need this grant of $5,000, but the smaller fairs do need assistance to carry on. I do not care whether the grant is $5 or $500, but I want all the B class fairs to be on the same footing. Yorktown and Prince Albert for instance, which did not comply with the regulations received the grant, while others did not. All I am asking for is a square deal.
Mr. CRERAR. If the fairs which the hon. member speaks for spent $3,600 last year in utility prizes they will participate in the grant this year. We have stretched the limit I think to the utmost. As to the relative merits of A and B class fairs, I dare say there are not a few hon. members in this House who would argue that the A class were more beneficial to the community than the B class. In the A class fairs the prize lists are larger, they have a bigger exhibition of livestock, and a great many more people patronize these fairs because they are held in the larger centres. The Toronto Fair, for instance, which runs for two weeks, undoubtedly attracts a great many more people than a fair in a little town of 2,000 people that runs for only three days. The policy of the Department may be open to criticism, but I am sure that the officials of the Department have studied the matter earnestly and honestly, with a view to getting the maximum of results for the money expended. I can assure the hon. member for Swift Current that it is not in the interest of any person in the department that B class fairs should
be discriminated against in favour of A class.


Ira Eugene Argue: As regards the reduction of $400, this was not made until after the question had been discussed several times with the minister and we pointed out to him that he had made this grant to other fairs which had not earned it, and that we thought we were entitled to the same privilege.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The cases to which the hon. member refers have already been alluded to. One was at Prince Albert, where they were $22 short of having spent $4,000. In considering the matter the officials of the department were of the view that this shortage of $22 was not due to their inability to get the money. The other case was Yorktown, where there was a shortage of $46 for the same reason. 1 have asked the hon. member for Swift Current what amount the Swift 'Current Board spent last year, but I have not been able to find out.


James Alexander Robb: I am not interested so much in what this contribution is given for fairs in Prince Albert and Yorktown, nor am I opposed to the grant to the Toronto Exhibition. But it is very questionable if the Toronto Exhibition would pay out in prizes to live stock in proportion to the grant received, and the Toronto Exhibition is a very profitable venture for the city of Toronto. I hold in my hand an item from a daily paper dated the 25th of December, which says:-
Toronto Fair Surplus $ 90,5<57.
Toronto, December 24.-Santa Claus, in the triple personality of T. A. Russell, president, Johnston G. Kent, manager, and Frank Brent-nail, treasurer of the Canadian National Exhibition, slid down the chimney into the City Hall to-day and presented Toronto with a cheque for $90,557.74, the biggest surplus by a good margin that the exhibition has ever paid.
It is quite apparent that such an exhibition which is able to finance itself should be able to concede a little bit to the pioneer districts in Western Canada, and some of the money might profitably go there.


Peter H. McKenzie: What is being done by the department either alone or in conjunction with the Agricultural Departments in the different provinces in organizing these societies? I was very much impressed by the address to-night by the hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Tolmie), and I was thinking that if some hon. gentlemen like himself or some other person equally informed and gifted were travelling through the farming districts and telling the farmers the advantages of pure bred stock very satisfac-

tory results would accrue. I am not aware that any organized or proper effort is being made in the part of the country from which I come either by the local Agricultural Department or by this department to bring this education home to the farmers and to invite them to organize and take advantage of tne opportunities which the department offers to them.
I am sure that there are hundreds and thousands of people who are making their living as farmers to whose attention the advantage of having proper stock and the way in which they can get it has now been forcibly brought. If no effort has been made hitherto to have a proper organization along those lines and a campaign of education, I would suggest to the minister that he should have a proper arrangement with the agriculture departments of the different provinces so that this campaign of education may be carried on. There is such a thing, no doubt, as a duplicating and overlapping of effort. We have agricultural societies in Nova Scotia under the supervision and control of the local legislature which do fairly good work, but we must push this work if we are to produce the results necessary to reach the high-water mark in regard to it. I am particularly pleased with the information which the hon. member for Victoria city has given us and I trust the Department of Agriculture will be able to present this matter to the people in such a way as to reach parts of the country that have not so far taken advantage of their opportunities. I am not finding fault with the department, because they seem to be doing good worx but I would like to go one step farther and press home upon the farmers the advisability of taking advantages of the opportunities which are made available t-o them through the department.
To enforce the Seed Act, to test seeds for farmers and seed merchants, bo encourage the production and use of superior seeds, and to encourage the production of farm and garden crops, $200,000.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I notice that this item
is for the purpose of encouraging the production of farm and garden crops. There is another method of encouraging the production of farm and garden crops which is not indicated fully in the description as contained in this item, and tha't is to find a market for that which has been produced. About a month ago I took the opportunity of asking the then Acting Prime Minister (Sir Thomas White) for information regarding some correspondence I had from a citizen living in the constituency that I

have the honour to represent. The Acting Prime Minister stated then that the Government had supplied altogether $80,000,000 to help in the marketing of Canadian wheat and that they were arranging, if my memory serves me aright, a credit of $90,000,000 additional for the same purpose. ' But he failed to explain why it was that any farmer found it difficult to find a market for his wheat and intimated that the wheat was not of proper grade. I have had since then considerable .correspondence from a number of farmers in the same section, as well as a number of millers, and they all have the same story to tell, that there is a large quantity of 11 p.m. wheat, fully twenty per cent of last year's crop, still in the hands of farmers. They all say that they cannot find a market for it. It may be difficult for a man like the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) or the Minister of Agriculture to understand that, and yet that is the story that comes to me from the riding of South Renfrew. The hon. member for Chateauguay-Huntingdon (Mr. Robb) .made an inquiry regarding the same subject a few days ago and the Minister of Finance informed him then that the Government were negotiating with the Greek Government for the disposal of 15,000,000 or 20,000,000 bushels of wheat. Notwithstanding this information, I am still confronted with the proposition that the farmers in South Renfrew have that quantity of wheat on their hands and are not able to dispose of it. Just a couple of days ago I received a letter from the proprietors of the Killaloe Roller Mills Company. This was sent in response to an inquiry made by me, and they informed me that there are at least ten . or twelve cars of wheat within hauling distance of their mill but that owing to the fact that they are unable to find a market for their flour they cannot purchase this wheat. The consequence is that this wheat will remain on the farmers' hands. The farmers are anxious' because, as I understand, the guaranteed price for wheat will be withdrawn and the farmers with 18,000 or 20,000 bushels of wheat in one little section of South Renfrew will be left with this wheat on their hands. There are other sections in the same position, and they naturally view the situation with considerable anxiety. I rise to discuss this issue on this item because it is my opinion that if the Government and department will find a market for that wheat they will certainly encourage production. These men were induced to in-

crease their acreage during the past two years for war purposes. In the last two years they increased their production by fifty per cent. That is the opinion of the several milling concerns in the riding. A market was held out to them as an inducement and as a result of that inducement there was increased acreage and increased production. If you want farmers to increase production no better method can be adopted than to insure a market for what they produce. Here is -the case as I find it not only in that one section of my constituency but in several other sections as well. They have the wheat on hand but no market. They want me to find out what the Government are going to do about this situation.
I would like to know the exact attitude of the Government in regard to the disposition of wheat which is in the hands of farmers at the present time, particularly in South Renfrew, in which I am naturally most interested. Will the Government undertake to find a market for that wheat at the guaranteed price? Should not the farmers expect the Government to take action along definite lines? Will the Government undertake to purchase the wheat to fill the contracts referred to a couple of days ago by the Minister of Finance? Will the hen. gentleman say that this wheat will be purchased for that purpose?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: How much wheat has the hon. gentleman's correspondent?


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: One correspondent says there are twelve cars of wheat within hauling distance of his mill; another, two cars; another says that there is twenty-five per cent of the season's crop around his section, and still another tells the same story. I cannot tell what the quantity is, but there will be about 20,000 bushels in that one section of my constituency.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not wish to further interrupt the hon. gentleman, but I know that a ready market is being found for all the surplus wheat in Canada at the present time. If this wheat has not been marketed I fancy it must be due to other causes. The demand undoubtedly exists for it, and I am informed that it is being sold steadily and readily.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I must say to the minister that if he entertains any doubt as to the quality of this wheat I can assure him on that score. The quality of the wheat raised in the Bonnechere Valley is equal to what is considered Manitoba No. 1 Hard. That is the reputation of the wheat raised generally
in that section. And I am informed by one of the millers that the quality of the wheat sold there is first-class in every particular.
1 might further state that this miller wrote to the department, and I have the letter which he received in reply. It is certainly not very encouraging. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I will read it. It 'is dated April the 24th, and is as follows:
Dear Sirs,-I have your letter of April 18th, but regret to state that there is very little in formation I can give you, except that conditions have changed materially during the past year The great shortage of ocean steamships has led to congestion in many parts of the world. An arrangement was entered into some time ago with the British Government by which the Wheat Export Company were to take the exportable surplus of the 1918 crop on the -basis of the fixed prices. The British Government, however, has -been unable to purchase the quantity at first thought necessary in view of the congestion at British ports and the very large quantity of wheat in the United Kingdom, larger quantities in fact than at any time since the outbreak of war. The whole question of the marketing of the Canadian wheat and flour is now engaging the attention of the Government. It is a difficult problem, however, in view of the present world wide conditions. Apparently matters can only adjust themselves.
It will be seen that this letter suggests no way out of the difficulty, and I would like to know if it is not possible for the Govern-men to assist the section of the country referred to in this respect.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know just what form the assistance could take. 1 am not personally familiar with the circumstances of the case to which the hon. gentleman alludes, and I would suggest that he taka it up with the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce, in whose department the transportation and marketing of grain lies. I can assure the hon. gentleman, however, that if'the grain cannot be marketed, there must be some particular reason affecting it, because grain is being sold almost every day to the United Kingdom, to France, and to neutral countries in Europe just as rapidly as tonnage is available. It may be that there is no person in the district to buy the grain, or no cars available for its shipment, or something of that kind. If the ordinary machinery exists I cannot understand why it cannot find a market. I would suggest to the hon. member that he place all the facts before the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce and let him have inquiry made into the matter by the proper officials in his department.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I might add for the information of the minister that the letter is signed by the Deputy Minister of Trade and

Commerce, and again call his attention to the concluding sentence:	.
Apparently matters can only adjust themselves.
It leaves the matter in a most dubious position-that is to say, the department can render these parties no assistance.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would suggest that the hon. gentleman take the matter up with the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: The letter came from that department.
'Mr. CRERAR: Yes, but it is written by the deputy.
Item 53, a vote of $25,000 for the administration and carrying out of the provisions of the Agricultural Instruction Act, will stand with the permission of the Committee, and afford opportunity, for discussion to other members of the House who are not able to be present this evening.
Pensions, European War and Active Militia-


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Does the minister (Mr. Rowell) not think it is rather late to bring up such an important question, when the attendance is so slim as it is now, a question in which the whole country is interested? I certainly think it is, if the minister is to make a statement of the Government's policy in regard to pensions.
Hon. NEWTON W. ROWELL (President of the Council): If this were a statement of the Government's policy I would at once concur in my hon. friend's suggestion. But the policy of the Government with regard to pensions, as well as the policy of the Pensions Committee, will come up for consideration when the Pensions Committee's Report is presented, which report I think will be in shape for presentation next week. The Pensions Committee has practically completed its work, and its report will then come up together with a Bill which the committee is drafting for submission to the House. All questions of policy will come up for review when the Bill is being considered. This is simply a vote of the estimated amount required on the basis of the existing pension schedule. If the Pensions Committee recommends some increases, as will likely be the case, that will involve a supplementary estimate being brought down; the whole question will come up for very full consideration when we have the committee's report before us, and the Pensions Bill which will have to be considered section by section. I thought, therefore, I would make simply a very brief statement, [Air. Pedlow.]
giving an outline of the present position of affairs. This item might then be permitted to pass, and we could discuss the whole question of policy when we come to deal with the report of the Pensions Committee.
This is simply an estimate based on a certain number of estimated pensioners- taking the figures for last year, plus the estimated number of pensions for the coming year. The total casualties in the Canadian Expeditionary Force .up to 8th of May of the present year, were 212,182. Of that number there were either killed or died of wounds or disease 63,347, and the total number of wounded was 148,835. That gives us the total possible pension claims up to date, and very few could subsequently arise; of course, some further claims may be presented before demobilization is completed. Taking first the killed, that is 63,347, it is estimated that no pension will be applied for in the case of approximately fifteen per cent of that number. That is there will be fifteen per cent with no dependents who would be entitled to claim any pension, and the Pension Board estimates that the total number of pensions which will probably be granted in respect of men killed in action or that have died of wounds will be 53,854-at least that is the total number in respect of which claim might be made to come within the provisions of the pension regulations. Now, so far 22,612 of these cases have come up for consideration by the Pensions Board, which is not quite one-half of the possible pension claimants in the case of those killed. Of the 22,612 claims which have come up for consideration and been dealt with, 16,959 have been allowed, and 5,653 have been refused on the ground that they did not come within the provisions of the pension regulations. That leaves 31,233 yet to be dealt with if claims are presented, and if they are disposed of on the same basis. In other words, if the percentage of claims that should be allowed is the same in the future as in the past, experience has shown it would come to 23,425 more pensions to be allowed in respect of those who have been killed in action or who have died of wounds. With that as a basis the Board of Pension Commissioners is able to estimate the total amount payable to dependents of those killed in action or who have died of wounds, and it is on that basis that that part of the present estimate is made up.
Then, take the case of disabilities. I gave the total number of wounded as 148,835. A number were wounded more than once and

returned to the firing line. It is impossible, of course, until all claims are in, to ascertain accurately how many have been wounded more than once. But for the purpose of this estimate the Board of Pensions Commissioners have put down the number at five per cent of the total, or 7,441, leaving 141,394 as the number of cases or disabilities for which claims might possibly he made. Of these, 71,834, about fifty per cent, have already been dealt with, and of the 71,834, 53,876 have been allowed and 17,958 disallowed, as not coming within the provisions of the pension regulations. If the remaining applications or possible applications are disposed of on the same basis, we would have 52,170 additional pensioners on the ground of disability. This estimate is based on the assumption that we shall have that additional number and that the average amount payable in case of disability will be the same in the new cases as in the cases already allowed. On that basis, the total estimated Pension Bill of the Dominion when all cases are disposed of will be $32,814,391, assuming that no increase is made in our pension schedule and that no change is made in the regulations so as to bring in cases that are now excluded. Of that amount, it is estimated that we shall require this year the amount mentioned in the Estimate. As a number of men have not been discharged from the army and the right to pension has not yet arisen, the full amount will not be required this year; it is estimated that $28,000,000 will cover the pension bill for this year on the basis of the present schedule of disabilities. If the Pension Committee recommends and the House concurs in some increase in the pension schedules, a Supplementary Estimate will be brought down to cover that estimated increase. That, in brief, is the basis of the expenditure under this vote of $28,000,000. If any further information is desired I shall be glad to give it as we proceed.


Mr. BELAND:: Are all men wounded in any way expected to make claims for disability?


Mr. ROWELL:: Not unless the disability affects the earning capacity of the soldier in the general labour market.


Henri Sévérin Béland: All the wounded are included in the 148,000?


Newton Wesley Rowell: All who have appeared in the casualty lists.


Henri Sévérin Béland: But many of them may not be claims?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Many of them may not
be claims. I may add that the Pension Committee has made a generous estimate of the number of pension claims. The actual number will certainly not exceed their estimated number of claimants. Probably it will be less, because there are many wounded whose wounds do not entail an impairment of their earning power.


Mr. MANION:: I should like to put on
record the case of a man who has not been given justice by the Board of Pension Commissioners and to get, if possible, the minister's assurance that he will take an interest in getting the Board to settle the case justly. I refer to the case of a private named John Taylor, whose regimental number was 439,640 and Pension Board Number 32,019. This man was wounded in France. He came home, and on the strength of having an injured arm-an arm that appeared to me to be paralyzed-he was given a pension of $5 a month. I met him quite by accident and I found that his right hand was absolutely paralyzed and his right arm out of use because of this paralysis-and he was receiving the magnificent sum of $5 a month. I took the matter up with the Board of Pensions Commissioners by wire on December 19th last, informing them that this man was getting $5 a month and that 1 considered it a disgrace to the country that he should be so treated. They wrote to me informing me that this man's hand was not paralyzed. They said:
On discharge it is found] that fingers could be moved passively through all the entire extent of normal movements and that the gTasp was lessened. There is no sign of injury to the nerves, and it was the report of the medical examiner at Port Arthur which stated1 that most of the condition was due to psychic disturbance, and not to any organic injury to nerves or muscles.
Further on they said:
The spasm of the muscles of the forearm and hand disappearing under an anaesthetic.
I communicated with them again in a letter dated December 27 objecting to their decision on the ground that even if this man's case was one of psychic paralysis, as they called it-that is, more or less imaginary-unless they cured that psychic paralysis the man had every right to a proper pension. I still adhere to that opinion. If a man loses the use of his arm through service at the front he deserves to be treated properly by his country-and this man has not been treated properly by the Board of Pensions Commissioners in
;:002

receiving an allowance of $5 a month when his right arm has been put out of business. Whether the disability is psychic or organic is beside the question, to my mind; unless the paralysis is cured the man has a right >to a pension. I also informed the Board that the fact that this man's fingers could be moved passively had nothing to do with the case, because to earn one's bread one had to move his fingers actively. I said further that the disappearance of the paralysis under an anaesthetic was also beside the question, as a man under an anaesthetic would find it difficult to earn a living.
I again wrote to the Board about this case and they claimed that Mr. Taylor was under treatment by the Invalided Soldiers' Commission. At the time they said he was being treated by that Commission he was working in Fort William-I admit that they were misinformed, through no fault of theirs. The most treatment the man had during the four months that he was supposed to be under the Invalided Soldiers' Commission was four days, but he received no pension during the (4) months that he was supposed to be under treatment. Later they paid him $20 for the four months. After working three months on this case, after many letters and other correspondence I succeeded in getting him re-boarded somewhere around March 5. He advised me to this effect, and he was then granted a 45 per cent pension, which would mean a pension of about $20 a month, which shows that a mistake was made in the first place when they gave him a pension of $5 a month. They were, however, not satisfied with that, and they sent him to Winnipeg to he boarded again, and the Winnipeg Board also recommended him for a 45 per cent pension, he tells me. He came back to Fort William about the middle of March, and he wrote me he was content to get this pension. But he waited another two months and after hearing no more about it he wrote to me again, and I once more drew their attention to this. They then advised him to go back to Winnipeg again for re-examination, and the man refused, and to my mind quite rightly. He had already been sent to Winnipeg twice and had been examined by neurologists in Winnipeg. Why, then, should it be necessary for this man to be put to the trouble of going to Winnipeg the third time with the possibility of losing his job? He was receiving a pension of only $5 a month and he was earning his living. Besides, this would mean putting the country to the expense of taking him all the way to Winnipeg a third time.

It was some time about the middle of May that he advised me he was not going to go to Winnipeg any more, as he had to earn his living. I advised him I thought he was perfectly justified in not going, and I advised the Pension Board to that effect, because I do not think that man has received justice from the board. In reply to my letter, they advised me that they were giving the matter consideration. This is a case which has not yet been settled, although it is almost six months since I first drew the attention of the Pension Board to it, and it is high time that the board woke up to the fact that this man is being treated with absolute injustice. He was recommended for a 'higher pension, but they have not yet given it. I do not wish to take up any more of the time of the committee, but I wish to get an assurance from the minister that he will see that this man gets justice at the earliest possible moment.


Mr.   HOWELL@: I, of course, have no personal knowledge of this case. It is the Pensions Board that deals with all these matters, and the Board is the final authority in connection with them under regulations passed by this House. I understand, however, that the Pension Board states that the facts are somewhat as follows: That on 4th October the case came to the attention of the Board of Pension Commissioners and that on the fifth of October Mr. Taylor was examined and recommended for treatment, and he was granted treatment under the Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment on the 7th October. For reasons which probably Mr. Taylor considered sufficient but which were not explained, he discontinued the treatment of his own volition within a few days after he was recommended for it. I should point out to the committee that those receiving treatment are on pay and allowance during the whole period of the treatment, and if a man is married his wife gets a sum similar to the separation allowance. It is quite true, as the hon. member has suggested, that there was some mistake in notifying the Pensions Board by the Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, and his pension was not resumed as it should have been when he discontinued the treatment. According to the regulations while a man is receiving treatment, if he is a pensioner, he draws pay and allowance paid by the Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment and his pension is discontinued. When he ceases treatment, his pension is resumed, and under the conditions there was a holding over of the pensiofi and the man has in that sense a

grievance and ground for complaint because of the mistake made in reference to notification to the Board of Pension Commissioners. I understand the situation is at present that he has been asked to go to Winnipeg for further examination, and if treatment is recommended, for treatment. Winnipeg is a neurological centre; they have there experts who can provide the treatment. The information which the Board of Pension Commissioners has is that this is a neurological case; and that treatment of that kind is necessary and that, if applied, will restore the man to health and should give him the use of his limbs, and, therefore, that man should, they think, go to Winnipeg to take the treatment. The expense to Winnipeg is paid, and if he takes the treatment he receives pay and allowance. That is the information I have received. I have, of course, no power to give the assurance for which tne hon. member asks. The Government has no such power under the regulations adopted which were considered wise at the time in order to prevent any question of politics interfering. The rules adopted, recommended by the Pension Committee, expressly provide that the decision of the Board of Pension Commissioners is final. There is no appeal to the Government and the Government has no right to override their decision. I will, however, personally look into this matter to see if there appears to be a grievance Or miscarriage of justice, with a view to urging the board to remedy any injury if one appears to have been inflicted. That is as far as I can go, because this is a case in which the decision of the board is final.


Robert James Manion: There are two or three points the minister makes that I wish to take up. With regard to the mistake made by the board regarding the man's being under treatment by the Invalided Soldiers' Commission I frankly admitted when I spoke that the Pensions Board were not to blame for the misunderstanding. The man says that he was not told to stay in Winnipeg and he left Winnipeg, but that was some misunderstanding. I ran across the man by accident, and it was because I found him a perfectly honest, decent chap who made no fuss, that I took up his case. I informed the Pensions Board that I was a returned medical .man and knew something of this case; that I was not speaking as a layman. The minister has just told us that he has been, informed that the Pensions Board advised this man to go to Winnipeg for treatment.


Newton Wesley Rowell: For examination and, if treatment is recommended, for treatment.


Robert James Manion: That is not what the man was informed because I happen to hold in my hand the letter written by the Pensions Board to the man, who sent it to me, and I will read it to the Committee. It is addressed to Mr. John Taylor, at his residence, and reads:
Dear Sir:

Will you kindly make it convenient to call at this office as soon as possible with a view to sending you to Winnipeg for a neurological examination? Transportation and expenses will 'be supplied to you.
No mention is made of treatment, and as the man had already been sent to Winnipeg for examination on two occasions, I think he was perfectly right in refusing to go a third time after, for a year, getting a pension of $5 a month.
As regards the man's having a grievance, I can assure the minister that I know just as much about these cases as most of the medical boards of this country, and more than some of them, according to this case; and this man has a grievance, and I intend to see that it is rectified.


James Alexander Robb: The complaint made by the hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River (Mr. Manion), and the reply of the minister, is an indication that it is not fair to put these estimates through to-night, because there may be other complaints. It is now nearly twelve o'clock, and we might very well adjourn.


Newton Wesley Rowell: If my hon. friend wishes to have the item stand, I thought probably the item would go through and all these things be discussed when the report comes in; but I will not press it at this hour. This is a large sum, and an important matter. I do not know if my hon. friend was in when I stated that I expected that the report of the Pensions Committee of the House would be received next week, when all these matters would come up for review.


James Alexander Robb: Will hon. members have an opportunity of bringing in similar complaints to those presented by the hon. member (Mr. Manion) ?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Yes. It will be understood that we are passing a pension law which revives all questions of the law which is to govern. The action of the board in this case is taken on the basis of existing regulations which make provision for requiring treatment in neurological cases. I do not wish to press the matter, but if my hon.

friend has no objection, I should like the item to pass.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If the minister says
that any of these items on page 60 under the headings, " Pensions," on the report of the Committee, or on the Bill which he proposes to introduce, I have no objection to this passing.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I am willing to give my hon. friend that assurance.
Pension to the sisters of the late Col. Harry Baker, M.P., $700.


Newton Wesley Rowell: I beg to move to insert the word "unmarried" before the word "sisters."


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Progress reported.
On the motion of Hon. Mr. Rowell the House adjourned at 11.42 p.m.
Monday, June 2, 1919.