1917-05-09

QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

*Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Has the Government received a petition signed by 60,000 wives and mothers of Canada, belonging to the Women's Christian Temperance Union, protesting against the wet canteen being introduced at the camps?
2.	If so, what action has been taken by the Government as regards same?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: A large number of petitions have been received, I think, by the House and some by the Government, protesting against the wet canteen being introduced at the camps in Canada, to which it would seem this question refers. Action was taken by the Government long ago in regard to the wet canteen in Canada, and there is nothing in this question to lead one to suppose that it refers to camps other than those in this country.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: With your leave, Mr. Speaker, might I ask my hon. friend to supplement his answer. He says that action has been taken by the Government in regard to the camps in Canada. What action is being taken with regard to the camps overseas?


George Eulas Foster: I did not take it that the question referred to camps overseas, but if my hon. friend would put his question in another form I should be glad to answer it.


DIRECTOR OP RECRUITING AT FOLKESTONE.
[Stage Direction]
* Mr. DEVLIN:
1.	Is there a Director of Recruiting at Folkestone, England?
2.	If so, when was he appointed and what amounts have been paid to him for salaries to staff and office expenditure since his appoint-
3.	How many recruits were obtained for the Canadian forces through the said Director of Recruiting since his appointment?
Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	No.
2 and 3. Answered by No. 1.


Mr. DEVLIN:: With the leave of the House I desire to ask the Minister of Militia (Sir Edward Kemp) if he has thoroughly understood the question, because the answer is misleading. I do not say that the minister intended to give a misleading answer, but that is the effect of it. The question is as to the Director of Recruiting at Folkestone, England. The minister has already laid on the Table a return which shows that there was a Director of Recruiting at Folkestone, and that certain expenditure had been made up to a certain time in 1915 on account of that office. Now he informs the House that no recruits were obtained and nothing was paid. Col. Reid was the recruiting officer.


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: I am not conversant with the circumstances to which my hon. friend refers. WTe cabled his question to Great Britain and I have given him the , reply we received. I will make further inquiry on the lines indicated by the hon. gentleman's remarks, and as soon as I -get the information 1 will impart it to -him.


OSCAR GRAVED.
Mr. BOURASSA:: 1.	Has Oscar Gravel of the City of Levis acted as recruiting officer in the active militia of Canada?
2.	If so. what is his rank?
3.	How many recruits has he obtained?
4.	How long has he acted as recruiting officer?

5.	What sums have been paid him for travelling expenses and for other expenses?
6.	Has his wife had separation allowance?
7.	If so. how much?
8.	Has the said Oscar Gravel gone to the front ?
9.	If not. why?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	No.
2,	3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9. Answered by No. 1.


LT.-OODONEL DR. F. W. MARLOW.
[Stage Direction]
* Mr. MURPHY:
1.	Has the attention of the Government been drawn to an alleged interview with Lieutenant-Colonel (Dr.) F. W. Marlow, published in the Toronto World on Wednesday, the 2nd instant, as follows :-
With reference to the articles emanating from Ottawa and appearing in the press on Saturday last, it may be said that there does not appear to have been any adequate reason why the parliamentary committee on returned soldiers should have been troubled with my letter of April 11, on the subject of an overseas appointment. It was directed to the officer in charge of administration at Toronto, and I presume a copy of it was forwarded to Ottawa, though not intended for public use.
Appointment Indefinite.
The reason for the letter was that in spite of reports from Ottawa that I was to go overseas to fill an important position in the Canadian Medical Service, I had been informed that no definite appointment could be given me before proceeding there, and that I might be given rank in the Canadian Expeditionary Force which, if accepted, would place me junior to a considerable number of medical officers who have entered the service since the war began, in spite of seventeen years of service in the Army Medical Corps and my two years of administrative work in the Toronto district.
It is unusual for medical officers proceeding overseas apart from organized medical units to be granted definite appointments before arrival there, but for nearly two years the vast majority of such as have gone over were newly appointed in the service and have gone over as reinforcements and with rank not higher than that of captain. On the other hand, in a few cases medical practitioners with little or no military experience have received definite appointments and high rank before going over. These also would rank senior to me, as two years' service on the staff at Toronto carried no standing in the Expeditionary Force towards the maintaining of which all the efforts of the staff were directed.
Considering such circumstances, and in view of my connection with the general problems of the medical service in Canada and also because of many recent events, particularly in connection with the problem of returned soldiers, I felt it my duty to defer accepting any overseas appointment until such time as the committee on returned soldiers reported to Parliament and likely discussions of the Medical Board were concluded, and especially as the appointment offered to me was of such indefinite and obscure character that its nature could not be revealed to me.
Statements to this effect were contained in my letter and an opportunity was sought for
discussing with the proper authorities the matter of an overseas appointment, but as yet such has not been granted.
Letter Made Public.
There was, so far as I can judge, nothing in the letter intimating that I had any expectation of being recalled by the Parliamentary Committee. For some reason, however, my letter was referred to them and consequently made public, with the result that the first and only reply to date came in the form of the newspaper article mentioned above, and also a letter from the chairman of the committee. Information through such channels was quite unexpected.
Having resumed my professional duties and as recent events are not likely to encourage me to accept any position at the hands of those responsible for my present relation to the service without a very careful investigation of the opportunities such position would afford for rendering useful service, I feel it my duty to "carry on" as at present and await further developments.
Meantime I shall watch with great interest the establishment of an effective plan for dealing with returned soldiers and will hope for the early inauguration of a united medical service and the emancipation of the same and the medical profession of Canada from the bondage placed upon them by laymen and politicians who deceive themselves in thinking they can get along without the doctors in dealing with medical problems or by relegating them, if called in, to a subordinate position which will not detract from the loftiness of their own altitude, in respect to matters requiring much technical knowledge, which they have never endeavoured to possess.
2.	Was Lieutenant-Colonel Marlow given an appointment in the Canadian Medical Service overseas?
3.	If so, what was the date thereof, and what were to be Dr. Marlowr's rank and duties?
4.	In the above interview, what are the names and rank of the medical practitioners referred to in the following sentence:-"On the other hand, in a few cases medical practitioners with little or no military experience have received definite appointments and high rank before going over"?
Sir EDWARD KEMP :: 1.	This is the first time that attention has been drawn to the alleged interview.
2.	Yes. Lieut.-Col. Marlow was offered an appointment as llieutenant-colonel in the Army Medical Corps of the C. E. F. overseas, and provision wa3 made for him to sail.
3.	March 27, 1917. Dr. Marlow's rank was to be lieut.-colonel. His duties were to be allotted by the overseas military authorities on arrival, with due regard to his rank and qualifications and to the military exigencies.
4.	Hospital and medical units raised in Canada for the C. E. F. are provided with a specified establishment. Officers appointed to these units perform the duties of their appointment. Other officers not appointed to a specified unit, or to the staff, are detailed to the general li3t and allotted by the overseas authorities to duty in accordance

with their special qualifications and to the best advantage of the service.


EXPERIMENTAL. FARM POTATOES.
Mr. McKENZIE:: 1.	Are potatoes for seed or other purposes sold at the Experimental Farm, Ottawa?
2.	If so, at what price per bushel?


Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Yes, a limited quantity are being sold for seed.
2.	Three dollars per bushel.


HOSPITAL ON PARLIAMENT HILL.
[Stage Direction]
* Mr. MURPHY:
1.	Has a hospital been established on Parliament Hill in connection with the Lyall contract for the reconstruction of the Parliament Buildings?
2.	If so, who have been, and who are now, the attending physicians?
3.	What is their remuneration, and how much, if any, have they been paid to date?
4.	Is the amount that will be expended in connection with the said hospital to form part of the cost of the new Parliament Buildings?
5.	If.not, how is the expenditure to be borne or provided for?
6.	Are there any patients or nurses in the said hospital at present?
7.	If so, how many?
Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1. An emergency field hospital has been established on Parliament Hill, a portion of one of the temporary sheds having been set aside for that purpose.
2 and 3. M. A. Renaud, day duty from June 10 to September 30, 1916, $100 per month; A. Lemay, night duty from June 21 to September 30, 1916, $125 per month; Dr. R. V. Connors, day duty from October 1 to December 30, 1916, $100 per month; E. Couture, night duty from October 1 to December 30, 1916, $125 per month. The total amount expended for the services of the foregoing, as set forth, amounts to $1,200.99. Since December 30, 1916, to date the emergency hospital has been closed.
4 and 5. Yes.
6 and 7. No; no nurses have ever been employed there.


CAMPBELLTON-GASPE STEAMSHIP SERVICE.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	What steamship service was given last year between Campbellton, N.B., and Gaspe, Quebec?
2.	What was the name and tonnage of the steamer, and by whom was it owned?
3.	When was the service inaugurated, and how many trips were made?
4.	What was the amount of subsidy, if any, paid per trip?
5.	Will any service be given this year?
6.	If so, by what boat, and what amount of subsidy, if any, will be paid?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	A regular semi-weekly service between Campbellton and Paspebiac, calling each way at Dalhousie and other ports, one trip each week from Paspebiac to be extended to Gaspe Basin, calling at other ports.
2.	The steamer " Elaine," of 272 gross tons, 156 net tons. Owned by Henry M. Evans, of the city of Halifax.
3.	Tile service was begun on the 5th August. They made 26 round trips.
4.	$312.50 per trip; a total of $8,125.
5.	On application from the contractor a renewal contract similar in all respects to the contract of last year has been sent to the contractor for signature, but has not yet been returned.
6.	The steamer " Elaine " is specified in the proposed contract, and the same subsidy, viz., $15,000 per annum, will be paid, or such amount as may be earned.


MR. HUGH HOBBS.
Mr. TURRIFF:: 1.	Is the Government aware as to whether or not Mr. Hugh Hobbs, of Ottawa, is a candidate for the presidency of the Ottawa Conservative Association? [DOT]
2.	Is Mr. Hobbs employed in the assigned pay branch of the Militia Department?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	The Department of Militia has no knowledge of this.
2.	Yes.


MR L. MATTHEWS.
Mr. TURRIFF:: 1.	Is the Government aware as to whether or not Mr. L. Matthews, of Ottawa, is a candidate for the secretaryship of the Conservative association?
2.	Is Mr. Matthews employed in the assigned pay branch of the Militia Department?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	The Department of Militia has no knowledge of this.
2.	Yes.


CROSS POINT WHARF.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	How much timber and lumber was purchased since 1912, from the Chaleurs Bay Mills for the Cross Point wharf, and what prices were paid?
2.	Were these purchases made after tenders had been called?
3.	If so, who were the tenderers, and what was the amount of each tender?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1. 1912-13, 13,264 feet at $16, $212.22; 191314, 26,217 feet at $17.50, $458.80; 1914-15, 37,196 feet at $18.50, $688.12; 1915-16, nil;

1916-17, 11,863 feet at $20, $237.26; total, $1,596.40.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by No. 2.
UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR PAPERS. Mr. LEMIEUX:
For a copy of all papers, petitions, telegrams and all other documents sent to the Government urging upon them the necessity of abolishing the wet canteen system in the camps overseas.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.

Mr. TOBIN:: 1.	How many commissions have been appointed by the present Government since the last general election?
2.	How many 'have made reports?
3.	What is the total cost of said commissions?


Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	How many permanent civil servants or officials were in the employ of the Department of Justice on the 10th day of October, 1911, and how many on the 31st of March, 1917?
2.	How many temporary civil servants and employees of all kinds were in the employ of the said Department on the 10th day of October, 1911, and how many on the 31st of March, 1917?
3.	How many permanent civil servants or officials were employed by said department since the 1st of August, 1914?
4.	How many temporary civil servants and employees were employed by said Department since August 1, 1914?
5.	What was the gross amount paid by said department for salaries and expenses to both permanent and temporary civil servants and employees for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1911?
6.	What was the gross amount paid by said Department for salaries and expenses of all permanent and temporary civil servants and employees for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1917?
7.	How many civil servants were appointed by said department since October 10, 1911, under the provision's of Section 21 of the Civil Service Act?


Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	How many permanent civil servants or officials were in the employ of the Department of External Affairs on the 10th day of October, 1911, and how many on the 31st of March, 191*7?
2.	How many temporary civil servants and employees of all kinds were in the employ of the said department on the 10th day of October, 1911, and how many on the 31st of March, 1917?
3.	How many permanent civil servants or officials were appointed by said department since the 1st of August, 1914?
4.	How many temporary civil servants and employees were employed by said department since August 1, 1914?
5.	What was the gross amount paid by said department for salaries and expenses to both permanent and temporary civil servants and employees for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1911?



TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY. REMOVAL OF RAILS FOR USE IN FRANCE.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: By your leave, Mr. Speaker, may I inquire from the Gov-renment if there is any truth in the report in the press of to-day that the Government are removing the rails from the Transcontinental railway beyond Edmonton to 6end them to France?


Mr. MEIGHEN:: In the absence of the
Acting Minister of Railways (Mr. Reid.), I may say that some time ago, at the request of the English Government, some 300 mdes of rails were sent over, those rails having ibeen taken from the sidings of the Transcontinental, where they could best be spared according to the report of the Railway Commission. Subsequently, a request for another 300 miles of rails reached us. On the recommendation of the same officials these are being taken, I believe, from the Grand Trunk Pacific beyond Edmonton.


Wilfrid Laurier: I presume
there is an Order in Council authorizing this proceeding; will it be brought down?


Arthur Meighen: I have no recollection
of an Order in Council, but if there is one it will be brought down.


Wilfrid Laurier: Are we left to suppose that this thing is1 done without authority either of Parliament or of the Government?


Arthur Meighen: Not without the authority of the Government, but I am not sure that there is a formal Order in Council.


Wilfrid Laurier: I presume that it could not be done without the authority of the Government at least, and there muet be an Order in Council.


Arthur Meighen: If there is one, it will
be brought down.



TECHNICAL EDUCATION.

Rodolphe Lemieux: That, in the opinion of this House, action should be taken by the Government at the earliest opportunity with a view to give effect to the recommendation of the Commission on Technical Education.

He said: Last session I brought forward a similar motion, my object being to obtain from the Government a statement of its policy with regard to this very important question. I failed in my effort then, at least partly. But, as the war draws to an end-I hope-it is of the utmost urgency that the Government should now make a decision as regards the report which was placed in their hands by the commission appointed a few years ago to investigate this subje'ct of technical education. I shall not dwell at length to-day upon this subject, because it has been pretty well exhausted in the many debates in this House in former sessions. Every one is seized of the need of a forward movement in this *matter. The urgency of thie question, its paramount importance, has been recognized by older countries. And, if it is urgent for older countries, it is still more urgent for a young country like Canada. Although very important strides have been made 'by Great Britain, France, Holland, and even by Japan, of late years, yet we must admit that it is to Germany we look as a model in this movement. A few months ago Lord Haldane spoke in England on this subject-and we know that Lord Haldane knows more about Germany than any of us in this House. He spent many years in German universities, and is a well-known authority on German education system generally. He said: I
I want to sound a warning of what is in store for us, I am more afraid of an engine for conquest in peace time which the Germans were busy preparing before the war, than I am of the 42-centimetre guns. This engine is educational. The most modern form of continuation school is extending itself over a large part of Germany, and it is planned to extend it over the whole Empire. It is a work school for imparting trade skill and general knowledge, rather than a mere book school, and it behooves us to be prepared for the shock of this competition which is coming after the war.
Germany is training the youth of the land in special skilled trades, to outdistance competitors throughout the world.
Mr. Speaker, I<say again, we must admit that Germany has led the world as regards technical education during the last half century. However, in England, and especially in Scotland, scientists and educationists have called the attention of the public to the necessity of a more perfected system of technical education. May I be permitted to quote the opinion of a famous scientist, engineer, builder and educator? I refer to J. Scott Russell who, as far back as 1869, used the following words which may apply to the conditions of to-day just as much as they 
applied to the conditions of England and Great Britain generally fifty or sixty years ago:
In every country-
Said Mr. Russell,
-where technical education has taken root and had time to bear fruit I also find unquestionable proofs of the rapidity with which increased intelligence and enlarged knowledge bring- increase in employment and remuneration. From my personal experience I may say that within the last twenty-five years I have seen large branches of commercial trade leave our country and plant themselves in another because the workers of the one were educated and those of the other uneducated. And I have watched nations rising into importance-
No doubt he was referring to Germany.
-and power by education and by order, organization, and efficiency, which education bestows, and other nations lagging behind and losing their place by reason of their unwillingness to educate either the higher or lower classes of their people.
Knowledge and mental discipline alone do not constitute education. To be practical and useful to all those who must earn their livelihood, education must also afford physical dexterity with special reference to the industrial pursuits of life. That is, in a word, the object of manual training and, in the highest sense, of technical education. It contributes to the development of the country, to its increased wealth and to the perfection of its citizens. There is also, in regard to this question of technical education a moral aspect which must not be lost sight of and, in this respect, I am pleased to see before me my hon. friend the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) because I am sure that the statistics which are at his disposal in the department over which he presides, will enable him to corroborate what I will state here. If one will consult the labour exchanges and the labour bureaus he will learn that the unemployed are generally the unskilled labourers. In that connection let me recall that phrase of Carlyle's, " that for a man to die ignorant who has the capacity for knowledge is a tragedy." In modern society all facilities should be given to the poor man to get his manual training. I have said that generally amongst the unemployed are to be found the unskilled labourers. I think I am right in stating that criminals are generally to be found amongst the unemployed and therefore the diminution of crime would be one of the beneficial results of a better technical education. According to the criminal statistics, I am told, one-third of all criminals are totally unedu-

*rated and four-fifths are practically uneducated. From that point of view alone, it seems to me that it is the duty of the Government to see that manual training and technical education are spread as much as possible amongst the labourers so as to avoid such a condition of things as is revealed in the criminal statistics of this and other countries. From the national point of view, the protection of our political institutions demands that the industrial education of our youth be intensified so that they may carry with them our ideas of obedience to law and the principles of democratic government in the midst of the multitude of foreigners who crowd our factories and mines and perform much of our labour.
Coming back to the effect of technical education on the various industries of the country, let me say broadly that the manufacturer is aided by industrial education in the improvement of his product. His success depends on the demand for his goods at reasonable prices. His activities are regulated by the needs of his customers. They ask generally for durability of material, attractiveness of design, excellence of workmanship, and all these, Mr. Speaker, I contend, can be secured and secured only by the application of technical knowledge and manual training.
Let me say, en passant, that on various occasions the Manufacturers Association of Canada, a very powerful body, has passed resolutions asking the Governments, both Federal and Provincial, but especially the Federal Government, to implement what has been done in the various provinces in the way of improving the system of technical education.
Having spoken of the effect of technical knowledge upon manufacturing, let me say now what, in my judgment, would be the effect on the working classes. Aside from the moral and religious education which, of course, must be paramount, the technical education of the working classes has the inevitable result of elevating their condition. Industrial education dignifies labour. If labour has a noble end and purpose, if it employs intellect, if it abundantly rewards its servants, then it is worthy to toe crowned. The perfection of our manufacturing, the facilitating of commerce, the unearthing of mineral wealth, the thorough exploitation of farms, the dissemination of practical knowldege, are the ends which are toeing served by technical education. Whilst the various provinces have of late years been responsive to the demands made
by the Manufacturers Association and by labour generally, a great deal remains to be done. I must pay homage to the great province of Ontario for the remarkable progress it has made in technical education. I am told by my friends who represent that province, that the Technical Institute of Toronto is second to none; and I know, as a matter of fact, that many years ago Nova Scotia, that little province by the sea -little in size but great by the men it has sent to Parliament and has given to Canada-has also toeen a pioneer in technical education. When my late colleague, the Hon. Mr. Fielding, was Prime Minister of Nova Scotia, he, by the subsidizing of a Technical Institute, gave to the progress of that province, which is so rich in mineral deposits and in coal mines especially, an impetus which will never be forgotten; and he thereby incidentally gave to the country a corps of mining engineers second to none in America.
Having spoken of Ontario and Nova Scotia and knowing something of what is being done in the Western Provinces, I can say with pride that in the province of Quebec to-day, substantial progress is being made in that direction. It is not a party question with us; the two parties, and I am pleased to say the two races and all creeds in the province of Quebec, have united in support of a splendid system of technical education. We have the Montreal Technical School, the Quebec Technical School, the Beauceville Technical School, and the Shawinigan Falls Technical School and others. We have in those schools many hundreds of students, and it is remarkable that since the beginning of the war, where in the various shell manufacturing establishments experts and instructors have been required, the men who came out of the Montreal Technical School have taken the first places. Giving my own personal experience, let me say that a year ago I met, in the county of Drummond, a young man, the son of a well-to-do farmer of St. Germain de Grantham. He was introduced to me after a religious service on Sunday by the father, who said: "My lad has just received his diploma from the Technical School in Montreal, and I wonder what I will do with him now." I said: "You have many opportunities open for him at the present time because in every shell manufactory you can find employment for your boy." He went to Montreal and got his son into the shell manufactory of Lymburner and Co. Five or six months

afterwards I received a visit from the young man, and I asked him if he was satisfied with his position and he answered that he was. I asked him how much he earned a day, and he said he earned $8 per day. Because of his technical knowledge he had become instructor to the army of shell makers in that large munition plant. This is only to illustrate what immense good technical institutes in our provinces and elsewhere can accomplish.
I am quite aware that there is a standing objection against this Parliament dealing with the question of technical education. I know that under section 93 of the British North America Act education comes under exclusive provincial jurisdiction, and you are well aware, Mir. Speaker, that I generally stand for provincial rights; that I would not have this Parliament encroach on any of the subject matters which are within provincial jurisdiction. But we have a military college which, apart from purely military matters, is heavily subsidized by this Parliament. We grant subsidies, at least we did a few years ago, to exclusively provincial railway companies. We have a naval school at Halifax in your own province, Mr. Speaker. The Department of the Interior receives from this Parliament a subsidy to spread the knowledge of the metric system in Canada. This Parliament has granted to the various provinces, towards the improvement of Agriculture, the sum of, I think, $10,000,000; so that on the whole the Dominion Government could find a way, if there is a will, to co-operate with the provinces and make grants towards industrial training and technical education.
I do not know that I should not address myself more especially this afternoon to the right hon. Minister pf Trade and Commerce rather than to the Minister of Labour. Perhaps the Minister of Trade and Commerce would he more responsive than my hon. friend the Minister of Labour was last year. However, I shall address myself to the 'Government generally and to the House.
Sir, this matter affects primarily trade and commerce. It affects our manufactured products as to their quality, quantity, and the means of transportation, and, on the whole it is a question of national concern. The Dominion Government could, therefore, without encroaching on provincial Tights, co-operate with the provincial authorities and thereby help to give a better technical training to our yeomanry. I may he told
[Mr. I.emieux.l
that the provinces have their own revenues which they may well apply to the cause of technical education. Well, the revenues of the provinces are derived virtually-I was going to say chiefly-from Dominion subsidies, nearly $12,000,000 being transferred each year from the Dominion exchequer to the provinces. I am pleased to say that the good old province of Quebec has apart from its share of subsidies, an excellent financial standing. As hon. gentlemen can see for themselves if they look at the figures in connection with the loans recently made by the Allied -Governments on the New York market, the province of Quebec is financially in splendid shape. I noticed the other day with great pleasure and great pride that one of the loans launched by Great Britain and another one by France on the New York market were to have as collateral 'securities the bonds of the province of Quebec, which rank as high as the bonds of the Dominion Government, if not higher. Sir, the revenues of the provinces, being derived chiefly from subsidies, are, however, somewhat strained by provincial needs, and you cannot develop a system of technical education such as we require in order to deal effectively with the problems that will arise immediately after the conclusion of the war if the matter its left entirely to the provinces. From their comparatively slender sources of revenue, the provinces have to maintain public services of great importance, such as the administration of justice, the maintenance of civil rights, the care of the public domain, roads and bridges, the organization and supervision of municipal government, and the organization, administration and -support of general -education.
I have said that the provinces could not very well, from their slender revenues, organize as they should the system of tech nical education which we dream of for this country. Dr. James W. Robertson, of Ottawa, a good Scotchman-I have -a weakness for Scotchmen-in an address delivered in the month of April, 1915, made the following statement with regard to the probable expenditure that the organization of a system of technical education in Canada on a safe basis would entail:
In making a forecast of the probable cost of maintaining an adequate system of industrial training and technical education, the Commission considered the populations and need of 566 places in Canada, besides the rural population in the counties. These 566 places, ranging from great cities like Montreal and Toronto down to incorporated villages of over 500 people, contained a total population of

2,790,000. In these urban places the number of persons between 14 and 17 years of age who were not attending any day school is estimated at 150,000 young people. The population of Canada according to the last census, outside of the 566 places already indicated, amounted to 4,400,000, of whom 237,000 are young persons between the ages of 14 and 17 not attending any school. If the proportion of attendance of these 387,000 young people could be brought up to that of many areas in England, Scotland and Ireland, no less than 213,000 of them would be continuing their education at suitable classes after they had begun to earn their living.
From that statement made by Professor Robertson, it looks as if the cost of technical education, spread throughout all those localities in Canada, would be rather high if undertaken by the provinces, I quite grant that by section 93 of the British North America Act, education is assigned exclusively to the provinces and that there is actually no dividing line between technical education and what is generally called cultural education. But surely we can do something towards stimulating the interest of our people in this subject. If I mistake not, this is the broad conclusion reached by the commissioners who were appointed a few years ago to investigate this question.
Do not forget, Mr. Speaker-the figures given the other day by the Minister of Finance prove this-that Canada is, after all, during these years of wiar enjoying a fictitious prosperity. The time will soon .come, I hope, when we shall revert to our ordinary vocations. The problem of the aftermath, it seems to me, is one which should arouse the attention of this Parliament and I do not see how we can better help our .people to grasp that problem than by doing something practical for technical education and manual training in Canada.
Thousands of soldiers will soon return to Canada. Some of them, I hope, will settle on the land; but much as I would like to see our soldiers become sturdy farmers of the West and of the East, I have not much faith in soldiers as farmers, and I am here expressing a current opinion based on past experience. There were given in this House the other evening figures in regard to the returned soldiers after the South African war, and we know what was done with the land scripts which they received. At all events, thousands of soldiers will come back to Canada; they will find that the war industries have disappeared, let us hope, for ever and ever; they will also find the old industries of the country dislocated, and it will take all the grit and all the energy
and all the statesmanship of our Governments to restore pre-war industrial conditions. It seems to me that the time is now ripe for Canada to look to the future and to do something to equip our returned soldiers for the battle of life.
Last year I quoted extensively from the report of a commission appointed by the Ontario Government and presided over by Sir John Willison, and one of the chief conclusions of that report was that Canada had to do two Jhings in order to maintain its name, its traditions, and its credit after the war: first, to capture as much trade as possible, and second, to equip for the battle of bread winning our returned soldiers and our young men by giving them a first class technical knowledge. In^Great Britain the Government is quite alive to this very important issue. The question came up in the British House of Commons in 1916 on a motion by Mr. Hewins. I have already quoted what was said in that discussion by such authorities as Sir Alfred Mond and Mr. Walter Runciman, who was then President of the Board of Trade, and I wish now to quote a few sentences from the speech of Mr. Lynch. He said:
In the course of time with the development of civilization, other - nations have entered into the lists as competitors, and before this war, England was being hard pressed by Germany. The foundation of the prosperity which Germany enjoyed before the war was laid generations ago. I will take the turning point, that of the advent of Wilhelm Von Humboldt to the position of Director of Public Instruction, in the year 1809. He was not a politician in the ordinary sense, but a man of very wide learning and imbued with the scientific spirit. He was called by the Prussian nation to establish a system of education, and in two years he laid the foundation of a system of education which has been the real root and source of the prosperity which Germany subsequently enjoyed. I will here point out that those in this country who occupy a position corresponding to that held by Wilhelm Von Humboldt have never been chosen as great educationists. At the present moment it would be hard for any honourable member of this House to say who is our Minister of Education, for he is suspended, like Mohamet's coffin, between Heaven and, say, the earth. The man who held this position in Germany for two years exercised such a wide influence and power that the reverberations of his efforts are felt for a century afterwards, while some of our educationists, if they had been in power a hundred years, would not have left their reverberations for a succeeding two years. For that I blame the Government.
I have read very carefully the debate on the co-operation of the Allies in the war, and the minds of the British House of Commons declared that in order
4 p.m. to capture the trade which before the war belonged to Germany,

England would have to repeat the history of Germany in the matter of technical education.
We have discussed this question on many occasions. In 1909, one of the -ablest speeches I ever -heard was delivered on that very question -by my hon. friend the -member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie), ' whom I am pleased to see hack in his -seat after having been absent because of illness. T-h-e hon. -member on that occasion delivered a most elaborate address, which had quite an effect on the House and- on the country. Several hon. members took -part in the debate, amongst others the right hon. the Prime Minister.
The resolution introduced by my hon. friend for South Wellington read:
That in the opinion of this House it is advisable that a commission of inquiry be forthwith appointed to investigate the needs of Canada in respect of technical education, and to report on ways and means by which these needs may be best met.
The Minister of Labour -at that time was the Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King, whose knowledge on questions of this kind is admitted by all. He also delivered a very important speech, and as a result of that debate, in the session of 1910 an appropriation was made on May 3 for the expenses of the inquiry. An Order in Council was passed, and the commissioners were appointed. Correspondence also took -place between the Minister of Labour and the provincial governments, whi-oh will be found in the report. The work of the -commission was very exhaustive, and is contained in a voluminous report of four volumes which deals with the question in a most exhaustive way. The commission was presided over by Professor Robertson, who is a well known authority not only in Canada but throughout the world. The commission visited 100 places in Canada, held 175 -sessions, heard evidence from 1,470 witnesses, men and women, -some of whom occupied foremost positions in industry, agriculture, house-keeping, and technical education generally. The commissioners also went beyond Canada and pursued their investigations in England, Scotland, Ireland, Denmark, France, Germany, Switzerland and the United States. They were given the amplest opportunity for investigation; everywhere, as they say in their report, they met with courtesy and enthusiasm. They found an increased interest in technical education. The countries which had taken the deepest interest in the matter were striving to do better still; in a w'ord, the most advanced were the least

satisfied. It is useless for me to go into the details of that report, which is in the possession of every hon. member, but it may be well that I should remind
the House that the published conclusions of ^ the commission have not yet been acted upon, and my object in rising was to ask the Government and my hon. friend the Minister of Labour what they intend to do in regard to those conclusions. When the question was under discussion in 1909 the opinion of the present Prime Minister, then leader of the Opposition, was expressed in no uncertain language. Brushing aside the objection that had been raised by some hon. members, that the Parliament of Canada could not investigate matters of education, or -appropriate funds for that purpose, because, forsooth, it was a question within the jurisdiction of the provinces, he said:-
If the position of the Minister of Labour (Mr. King) be correct the Government has been violating the constitution of Canada for 35 or 40 years in the establishment of the Military Scnool in Kingston. But I have not heard of any province raising any objection. But the hon. minister need not stop at the Kingston military school, let him look at the estimates of this year or any year, and he will find over and over again, where the Government has spent money by the million on matters absolutely within the jurisdiction of the provincial legislatures. Does not my hon. friend know that his own estimates which he has just brought down, contain dozens of items for aid to undertakings purely local and absolutely within the- jurisdiction of the local legislatures? Local works and undertakings, except in so far as they connect one province with another or some province with a country outside Canada, are purely and absolutely within provincial control, yet you can take the estimates and on page after page you will find money given by the $5,000, $10,000 and $100,000 to undertakings of that kind. The Parliament of Canada has the right to vote money for any purpose that it may deem proper. It has voted money for purposes absolutely outside Canada. For example, to aid the sufferers at San Francisco, to industrial exhibitions without our own country, subsides to provincial railways which are purely works of a local character, and under provincial jurisdiction, aid to art schools, special lectures upon the advantages of the metric system, a grant to McGill university in aid of work of this kind, schools for the examinations of masters and mates, to keep up the school at Kingston and for the establishment of experimental farms.
He concluded -as follows:-
I have thought it desirable to place this aspect of the question before the House. I say to the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) that I am entirely in sympathy with the object he has in view, and I trust action will be taken along the line he has suggested, if no other action can he taken, hut so far as I am concerned I would greatly and infinitely prefer that a more definite and practical and speedy action should be taken than that which has been suggested in this resolution itself.

So the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Trade and Commerce need have no scruples, because the Prime Minister, in the speech I have just quoted, practically gave him his fiat in 1909. To recapitulate. The resolution was introduced by my hon. friend for South' Wellington, and the appropriation for the commission was voted at the following session in 1910. The commissioners were appointed, and visited nine countries. They heard 1,400 witnesses in Canada, and held hundreds of sessions both in this country and outside. They published a very voluminous report in four volumes, and in their conclusions asked this Government to co-operate with the provinces in this matter. Yet the report has been shelved. Nothing has been done. We are all looking forward to the cessation of hostilities ; we expect this war to end soon, and our soldiers will then be returning by the hundreds of thousands; we know that it is our duty to equip these soldiers for the battle of life; we talk about capturing the trade of other countries, especially that of enemy nations. And yet, although all these facts are well known, the Government has done nothing. My hon. friend the Minister of Labour says that the report is in his department, and that he is awaiting instructions from the various provincial governments.
It seems to me this a most urgent question, and that the Government should, once for all, take action on this report which has cost so much money and labour-though not too much, in my opinion. The Government should declare that the spread of technical skill and knowledge will .be subsidized by the Dominion in co-operation with the various provinces. At page 21 of the report of the commission appears the following:
The Underlying Principles.
The Commission is of the opinion that Industrial Training and Technical Education in order to he of greatest benefit to individuals, to industrial development, to localities, to the several provinces, and to the Dominion as a *whole, should be organized and maintained in accordance with the following principles:-
1.	It should be under provincial control and regulation.
2.	It should receive financial support from individuals, from local authorities, from provincial governments, and from the Dominion.
3.	Provision should be made for active participation in its control, management and direction by individuals in the locality who would represent industries as employers and employees, agriculture, women's occupations, particularly housekeeping, business, and organized education.
4.	It should provide educational opportunities for those who have gone to work and also for those who are able to return and devote their
time for some months or years, as the case may be, to a course or courses of instruction and training.
5.	It should make provision to ensure, as far as practicable, equality of opportunity for all preparing for industrial, agricultural and housekeeping occupations, and for workers in such occupations.
6.	It should be carried on in cordial cooperation with existing systems of education, and in such a way as to have the advantage of the use of existing buildings, equipment and teaching staff so far as these may be suitable and available.
Once more, in bringing this motion to the attention of the House, I sincerely hope that the Government will not fail to decide upon such a policy in this matter as will improve the opportunities open to our own people and will also help to settle some of the gravest problems which will arise after the war.
Last winter an address was delivered by Dr. H. E. Howe, to which was given the very apt title "The German Alarm Clock." In opening, the speaker said:
However alert we may he individually, it has required the efforts of the biggest alarm clock in history to arouse us collectively to the dangers which beset us, and to the methods by which we were being placed in a subordinate position.
As I said a moment ago, that which gave Germany its trade and industrial preponderance in the world was the technical knowledge which, for almost a century, has been given to young Germans. Dr. Howe proceeds:
Prior to the war, Germany was carefully, - patiently and persistently conducting a successful commercial conquest of the world. Her agents were everywhere occupying positions of low as well as high degree according to the requirements of their particular task, learning the language of the country in which they worked, making themselves familiar with market and trade conditions, and reporting constantly to the great organizations at home, in order that no detail might be overlooked in giving them a firm hold upon world markets. I am informed that German concerns were even supplying the great bulk of chains, anchors and similar equipment to the maritime country of Great Britain. Through the co-operation which existed between the government, manufacturers, and banks, German salesmen were often able to make terms of credit quite impossible with a manufacturer not having such beneficent aid.
In another paragraph he said:
I hope this gives some idea of the condition of affairs when the war first broke out in August, 1914. As soon as the German fleet disappeared from the seas the various countries suddenly awakened as if by an alarm clock to the extent of their dependence upon German products. For the first time many people began to analyse the situation to learn the cause of Germany's strong position in many lines, and

I think all have come to the conclusion that the three principal causes at least are education, organization and scientific research.
I shall not quote any more. I think I have said enough to become myself tihe " alarm clock " of the Minister of {Labour. I want him to give the House and the country the promise that he will take down from the shelf the report of this commission and apply himself during the coming holiday to finding a solution of this question by inviting-should there be any objection from that quarter-the premiers or the Ministers of Education of the several provinces, to confer with him, and, while co-operating with them, lead in this cause of technical education in Canada.
I hope I have not kept the House too long. But I sincerely believe that this is a most acute problem, that of giving to our young men, our returned soldiers, the arms and the weapons with which during the era of peace which will succeed the era of war, Canada, through them and by them, shall take its true place amongst the progressive nations of the world.


Hon. T. W. CROTHERS (Minister of Labour) :: Mr. Speaker, in almost identical
words, my hon. friend from Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) has reminded us of the speech delivered in this House just a year ago, which will be found at page 2177 of last year's Hansard. My reply will be found at page 2187 of last year's Hansard. I do not propose to follow his example and take up an hour repeating what I said a year ago. I think our attitude was made fairly clear at that time and it has not materially changed sinee as far as I am aware. I do not know where my hon. friend got the idea that I was not very enthusiastically in favour of technical and industrial education. 1 do not yield to him for one moment in that respect. I realise the great advantages that would accrue from a more thorough system of technical education and industrial training than we have at the present time. I think that if my hon. friend's memory had been a little more reliable he would have had in his mind something of what I said last year. It will be found at page 2187. I am only going to read a sentence or two:	.
So that it seems to me that the question before us is not whether technical education and industrial training are desirable-indeed, are of the highest national importance, and should be brought within the reach of every youth in the land-but rather how best can these advantages be placed before them. The Government is quite alive to the importance

of practical as well as cultural education, and realizes that inestimable advantages would accrue to Canada had every youth an opportunity of acquiring technical education and training in the particular vocation chosen for his or her life work. Especially, I think, do we owe it to the mechanic, the artisan, and other wage earners, to provide them an opportunity to qualify themselves for larger earning power and to take a more prominent and influential place in the various activities in which our people are engaged.
That was my view on the question at t'hat time and I have not changed it since. As my hon. friend has said, there are difficulties surrounding this question. He has told us that education, under our constitution, is exclusively assigned to the various provinces. He knows from what I said last year that when the report of the Commission on Technical Education and Industrial Training, to which he has referred, was printed and bound, it was forwarded to each of the provincial governments with a request for an expression of opinion concerning the suggestions made in that report. I think I am safe in saying that in the replies that we got there was only one provincial government in Canada that approved of the system set forth in the report. That "was, if I remember aright, the province of Nova Scotia, as represented by the premier of that province. Now, I am not going into the particulars as to these objections because there they are set forth in Hansard and I do not think I would be warranted in taking up the time of the House for an hour in repeating what I said last year. An Association exists in Canada that has for its special object the encouragement of technical education and industrial training. It held a meeting in Toronto a year ago last October and this was part of a resolution passed by that association specially interested in the development of this question:
It is necessary and expedient that financial assistance be rendered by the Dominion to the several provinces for the service of technical education, as soon as the Government is freed from the pressing problems of the present war.
The men specially interested in this question thought that no such application should be made to this Government until they had become freed from the responsibilities and expenditures of the present war. We are not free yet; the expenditures are larger than they were a year ago. A great deal has been, and is being, done by the various provinces, as my hon. friend has already stated, more perhaps by the three provinces of Ontario, Quebec, and Nova Scotia, than the others. I think that

last year my hom. friend from Winnipeg (Mr. Rogers) said that we were committed to the idea of rendering financial assistance in some way ot other but not at that time. That is my position to-day. I sympathize as deeply as the hon. member for Rouville can sympathize with the idea of encouraging technical education and I realise the great advantage it would be to all classes in this country if we had a more extensive, a more thorough, system of technical education and industrial training, but I do not think this is the time to take it up. I do not think we would be warranted in doing so and I can only say now that I sympathize with the idea of extending and making more thorough the system of technical education and that we will be prepared to render assistance of some sort, in some way, when the proper time comes, but in our judgment we would not be warranted in making such a large expenditure as is recommended in this report while the war is on.


Mr. A. VERVILLE (Maisonneuve):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Crothers) has repeated to this House what he said last year. Of course, he does not go over all the letters that he had last year from the different provinces, stating approval or objection to the proposals. I admit that he iis right in not doing so. I notice on the Order Paper to-day that there is a Bill to be introduced for good roads. I do not know how much it is proposed to devote to this object but I suppose it will be $10,000,000. We are at war at the present time and will be at war for a long time to come. From a financial standpoint, we are going to be at war for a great many years. If we wait until the finances of the country are in an absolutely settled condition before we grant a sum of money to each province for technical education, none of us will see it, because we will not live that long. There is a generation at present growing up who are absolutely in need of technical education. Nothing is so important to-day as technical education. We have to look to the future, and it is clear that we must have greater production from our men. We hear every day in the House of the number of producers who are giving their lives in the war, millions of men. If that is so, then we are justified in saying that we will need more production from the young boys who are now ready to receive technical education. In the past we have had to go across the water to get professors and men of 79
technical knowledge. It is unnecessary to enter into details as to the need for technical education, because that is admitted by both sides. The present Prime Minister (Sir Robert Boiden), when he was leader of the Opposition, acknowledged as one of the greatest lawyers in the country, said that this Parliament would be within its rights in granting aid to technical education. We are just as entitled to do that to-day when my right hon. friend is at the head of the Government. Furthermore, I do not know that there is anything in the constitution of the country which would prevent any Federal Government making grants to the provinces for such a purpose.
Without going into details of what happened in the House last year when the Good Roads Bill was under consideration, it was proven then that it would have been adopted by the House had the money been granted to the different provinces according to population. What is to prevent the Government following that plan in respect to technical education? The Minister of Labour says that according to some resolution which has been passed we should concern ourselves about technical education until we have settled our financial problems. But surely if there was a grant to each province according to its population, the association which has passed this resolution would surely be only to glad to see that it was put into operation.
The hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Le-mieux) has spoken of different technical schools. I happen to know something about one because I am a member of the commission having charge of the Montreal school. The difficulty which that commission has in securing the funds necessary for the administration of the schopl going to the city and going to the provincial government to secure money, is far beyond the imagination of many of the members of this House. We have to gather money for the war from many different sources, we are doing that to-day, and we still have to gather money for technical education. As I have said before the recommendation of the Royal *Commission was that $3,000,000 should be voted for the promotion of technical education. The Minister of Labour will never make me or any other man of common sense believe that if a sum less than this was granted a province would not accept it. Let the 'Government show their willingness to do something to assist teolmical education. If we are going to wait until



this Government or any other Government is in a position to settle all the financial affairs of the country, to put them ,on a solid footing, before dealing with technical education, we are going to make the greatest mistake of our lives in reference to the future of the country.


Mr. J. H. BURNHAM (Peterborough West):: Mr. 'Speaker, the hon. gentleman
who has just spoken summed up the whole matter in his reference to the fact that both sides of the House were of opinion that technical education was a matter of first importance, and something that must be dealt with as soon as possible. He overlooks one matter, however, to which I expected the Minister of Labour to refer, that the Prime Minister of this country (Sir Robert Borden) was the means of having appointed, since last session, a body of experts for the purpose of looking into this matter from a purely Canadian point of view. The report which we had laid upon the table of the House last year was very voluminous, very thorough, and enabled all those who took an interest in the subject to thoroughly inform themselves. This being the case, after a required period for digestion, it was agreed upon by everybody that if Canada desired to continue doing well and intended to do better, she must take further steps. But in scientific matters it is not possible to proceed by sudden fits and starts; it is necessary to consider these things thoroughly and carefully, and they can only be properly and adequately considered by those who are thoroughly qualified to consider them. That being the idea actuating the Prime Minister, and quite properly so as I am sure we all agree, he appointed a board presided over, I think, by Professor Mackenzie of Toronto University, to look into this very matter and to suggest what ought to be done, not only to look into it theoretically but also to give practical suggestions. There can be no question that an educated people is not only a better people mechanically considered, but intellectually and morally as well. If education is the basis of our advance and of the progress of civilization, why then it goes without saying that we should furnish for our people, especially for the great mass of our people, that intelligent and comprehensive understanding of their duties which alone makes success assured and life itself really worth living.
I do not like to hear such frequent references to the captures we are going to

make; this capturing of trade and capturing of other people all the time is repellent to me. Let us do our duty in the premises. Let us make ourselves better men and our country a better country, and we will have succeeded to the best of our ability and in a way that will leave us open to no criticism.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


Mr. WILLIAM THOBURN (North Lanark) :: Mr. Speaker, I regret that I did not hear my hon. friend from Rouville this afternoon. I should have liked to have heard the course he has suggested that Parliament should take in this matter. I do not wish to say anything in reference to technical education to embarrass the Government at this particular time, because the one burning question with which we have to deal is this terrible war. But since this question has come up this afternoon, I wish to say that it is one that has puzzled me many and many a time. I have felt the need of technical education very severely in connection with the business in which I am now engaged. Just when and where to apply it puzzles me a little. May I put my difficulty this way: has our present system of education been the means of depleting the farms of agricultural help, and the factories of its mechanics? I would say candidly that it has. I shall never forget a statement made to me by a judge shortly after he had been appointed to the bench. He said that one of the most difficult things he had to contend with was the necessity of dealing with lawyers brought before him for debt. Would that not lead you to believe that our present educational system is depleting our supply of all kinds of mechanics and is over-crowding the professions? I want to give you the experience of the county in which I live. I cannot say that more than 5 per cent of the young men who went through our high school ever went .back to the farms or factories. Why was this the case? It is a problem that I cannot solve. I never could understand why a high school education should not better fit a man for work on the farm, and I know very well that a high school education would better fit him to go back to the factory. But they do not go back, and that is one of the reasons why I am puzzled to know just where technical education should be applied. Whether it could be imparted in our public schools or high schools. I do not know. At any rate, it has to be applied somewhere, because at present our educational system, although

it is said to be one of the finest in the world, is not supplying the farm and the factory with the help that they so much need.


Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (North Cape Breton):: I have listened with interest to
the speech delivered by the horn, gentleman who has just taken bis seat (Mr. Thoburn). It is rather difficult to follow my hon. friend's reasoning. Followed in one direction, his argument suggests that we should have no education at all; that the man who is in absolutely raw condition is the best for the country's greater needs; that if a man has no education he will stay on the farm and work in the factory. Therefore, he should be given no education, in order that he may be kept in the factory or on the farm. I am sure that that is not what the hon. gentleman means; but that would be the substance of one line of his reasoning, because he suggests that if young people are given an education, they forsake occupations and activities which must necessarily be kept up.
As to my hon. friend's difficulty with regard to when this education should be given, all I can say is that I come from a country where we do give that education, not in its highest form, of course, but in a sort of primitive way. We have, it is true, a technical college in the province of Nova Scotia, where, during the past seven or eight years, the highest forms of technical education have been given, but the technical education that is of vast importance to the steel maker, coal miner and mining engineer is given in night schools. Professors of our colleges and academies are at the head of these night schools and are furnished with the necessary appliances and machinery by the use of which they give instruction in the making of engines, the production and application of electricity and the generating of power. In these schools we have trained an army of technical miners, technical steel makers, men who can handle and apply power, such as electricity; men who understand the proper production of power from coal. All the necessary work that is done in a coal mine and in connection with the production of iron and steel is taught in these schools. I assume that the same sort of thing is being done in the province from which my hon. friend comes. We should like to be carrying on this work on a larger scale, though we have, of course, taken an advanced step by establishing a technical college. This college is working in co-operation with other educational institutions. When a young 79}
man has taken two years in Dalhousie, for instance, he gets credit for them in the technical college, and after an additional two years in the technical college he may be graduated as a mechanical, electrical or civil engineer, according to the line that he may have followed. From this plan we have obtained very practical and very useful results. I think one of the reasons why young men leave the farm, or refuse to stay in the factory, is that they are kept at unproductive and what they consider to be uninteresting work. If they were able to secure a scientific knowledge of farming, of fisheries, of work in the factory, they would find these activities more congenial and more interesting than they find them now.
I submit to the Government, and particularly to the Minister of Labour, that it is not a sufficient answer to the suggestions of the member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) to say that 'last year and the year before the matter was before the House and the minister refused to do anything. It is not sufficient for the minister to look back to the years in which nothing was done and say: that is my record, and I am standing by it. That should not be a satisfactory answer if the Government as a whole are anxious for progress. Technical education is as much a war measure as anything else that is done in connection with the war. We cannot have too much technical knowledge of the elements entering into the various products and manufactures by the use of which we are assisting in carrying on the war. The making of shells, the proper production of power and of everything that enters into the manufacture of shells, guns and other war necessaries, can best be carried on by men who have technical education. This being the case, even under the War Measures Act, moneys could weill be applied for the encouragement of technical education in Canada.
We are wasting millions of dollars worth of property in this country from year to year because of the lack of technical education and fine tastes as to what uses can be made of our raw materials. If there is in this House a lumberman or a man who has knowledge of lumbering in some parts of this province, he will know the horrible and awful waste that occurs in our forests by reason of the fact that proper technical knowledge is not brought to bear upon lumber. Any one who knows anything about the fisheries of this country and the crude way in which we handle fish knows that although we secure millions of tons of fish and own millions of dollars worth of

property connected with the fishing industry, we throw away a great deal, probably a third, of the values that can be produced from our fisheries because we really do not know how to handle fish and do not know how to deal with the byproducts. Technical education along the line of teaching the people what are the byproducts of fish, how to handle fish and how best to put it on the market, would make our fisheries ten times as valuable as they are to-day. I have been told that in Newfoundland, where for years they had copper mines, they are reviving them again, because it has been found that millions of dollars worth of copper were thrown away simply because the people there had not the proper appliances to deal with the copper products. Our coal mines and our steel works are in much the same condition; we are not equipped with the men nor the machinery to get the most out of these things. While we have in this country abundance of raw material, it is a sad fact that most of it goes out of the country practically in a raw state because we are not equipped for the proper handling of it, nor the handling of it in such a way as to give the maximum of employment and money to our own people. Since the war broke out we have heard a great deal about the handling of nickel in this country. It was brought out last year that our nickel leaves this country practically in its raw condition, because we have not the technical knowledge nor the machinery to put it into an advanced stage of development. As nickel is a metal that is largely used in connection with the war, is it not a duty that devolves upon the Government, and a matter that comes within the scope of technical education, to see that we are in a position to handle that valuable commodity in such a way as to keep its ownership and its production within our own lines and in the hands of our own people?
The subject of technical education is very inviting and it is one upon which a great deal can be said. As I have already said, it is not a good answer for the Government to say: We have been speaking about this matter already and we will continue to dp nothing in regard to it. Even as a war measure, moneys of this country could not be better utilized than in educating our people to make the most of themselves and the most of the raw material that we have within our reach in this great country of ours.
[Mr. McKenzie. 1


Mr. RICHARD BLAIN (Peel):: I rise to express my approval of the question that is now before the House. This is a matter that has received the earnest consideration of more than one 'Government, >and the conditions ,of the country now are such that it is calling for the help and sympathy of every class of people in Canada. My hon. friend (Mr. Lemieux) is to be complimented for bringing this question to the 'attention of the House and of the country, and for many years n*)[DOT] question has come up fox consideration that seems to receive such unanimous approval as the question that we are dealing with now.
It is sufficient answer, however for the Government to say that its whole effort is now connected with the war and problems that come up for consideration in connection with the war. We have noticed the progress and development of the manufacturing industries of this country and I am sure the people of Canada agree that we have made great strides in that regard. Had the manufacturing industries of Canada not been in such an advanced position, we would have been unable to cope with the great questions that have come up and it would have been absolutely impossible for our manufacturing establishments to take hold of the manufacturing of munitions and other articles required in the war. I recall when the question of manufacturing in Canada-was a very heated one in the province of Ontario. A
5 p.m. Government in power many years ago in that province allowed trees to be cut into logs in the province and then allowed them to be sent over to the United States to be cut into lumber. The question became a live issue in the Legislature in the province of Ontario, and later the Legislature agreed that such a policy was not in the best interest of the people of that province, and the result was that shipment of logs out of the country was prohibited and those handling them were required to cut the logs into lumber in the province in order to give employment to the people of Ontario. All that is along the line of progress in manufacturing, and I am pleased to say, looking over the House and having had some experience and listening to this question being discussed, that every hon. member is interested in this question, and I think almost every hon. member will agree with me and also with my hon. friend the Minister of Labour when he says that in his opinion and in the opinion of the Government, the war is of

such importance that this matter can be delayed a little longer. For my part, I approve the question; I believe it is worthy of our best consideration. It is a matter that has Engaged the attention of the Legislatures of the different provinces throughout the country and it is one which should receive the consideration of this House and of the people of Canada and must be dealt with by this Government in the near future.
Mr. E, M. MACDONALD (Pictou): Mr. Speaker, the House might profitably discuss this question with great seriousness and care for some time with a view of having early action taken by the Government in regard to it. One of the problems which are continually engaging the attention of the press is the question of what Canada is going to do after the war, and a great many ideas have been put forward from a great many sources as to what will be the groundwork of the prosperity and advancement which we hope will come to Canada some day. Some hon. gentlemen tell us that immigration will come here, but immigration depends to a large extent on the question whether Canada is a cheap country to live in and whether we are able to offer to those who come from other lands such inducements in regard to satisfactory conditions of life as will enable them to come to this country with the feeling that they are able to do better here than.elsewhere.
There is, entirely apart from immigration, a question that intimately concerns every citizen of Canada at this time, and that is whether we are doing our full duty with reference to our institutions so that we may prepare conditions in such a way that the young men who are growing up and who have not been able to go to the war may be fitted in the best possible manner to take their place as citizens of this country, and that those who have gone and fought and who have returned may be equipped in the best possible way for pursuing satisfactory avocations which will enable them to earn a living and be of some assistance in increasing the wealth of the country. We can eliminate from the consideration of this question the elaboration of agricultural conditions, and we must approach the con. sideration of what is best to do in order that the industrial life of Canada in the future may be prepared for and made certain.
There is only one way of meeting future conditions, and that is by preparing for the
education of the young men who are growing up to-day, and giving them the best facilities for the development of whatever ability they possess. Are we doing our best in that respect in Canada? This Parliament, as the national body, is hound to assist in every possible way, and if we are not doing our whole duty then it is well that we and the people of this country should realize it. I think the motion of my hon. friend that the time has come when we should implement the recommendations that were made by the commission three or four years ago is a very proper one, and should receive the approval of this House. This is not a matter on which the parties should divide. The Government should not hesitate for one moment in accepting the principles of my hon. friend's resolution. Either technical education is a paramount necessity, or else it is of lesser importance than other things. It may be that it is more important to build the Quebec and Saguenay railway and to make arrangement* with my hon. friend for Charlevoix (Sir Rodolphe Forget) by which $8,000,000 is paid out of the treasury of this country, than to1 do anything for technical education, and if that is the view of the Government it is just as well that the people of this country should realize it. It may be that it is more important to this country to spend over $14,000,000, as the Government has done in the last four years on the Hudson Bay railway, in regard to which we have the report of the commissioners who investigated the general railway situation in this country, and to keep on spending $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 every year on that road, which when completed will under existing conditions only add to the seriousness of the problem that confronts the whole people of Canada, than to provide money for the development of technical education. For myself, I do not think so. Last year we spent on capital and ordinary expenditures $15,000,000 on public works in this country, and about $7,000,000 of that was spent under the Public Works Department. It is true that my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce comes to us and talks of thrift and cannyness and care in our personal expenditure, and that the Minister of Finance devotes a large portion of his time to giving homilies to the people of this country on thrift. I am not dealing particularly with that, except to point out the moral that if this country can afford to spend $7,000,000 on public works it can surely afford to

spend something on preparing for the technical education of the youth and men of this country. We have seen that it is not a question of money with the Government. They have no trouble at all in raising money for certain purposes. They have placed upon the Order Paper a Highways Bill with all the expenditures it involves, and if the Bill is to be on the same lines as the one submitted to the House some years ,ago the Government surely need conjure up no difficulties about the expense of a technical educational scheme. If technical education is as important as hon. gentlemen concede it to be, surely it is possible for the Government to save money in one of the two avenues I have indicated to assist the provinces in the development of technical education. Last year it was objected that there would be difficulty in the way of this Government giving any aid to the provinces for technical education, because there might be a conflict of jurisdiction. It does seem to me that that argument is most far-fetched. The Minister of Agriculture some years ago brought in a Bill for the development of agricultural instruction schools in this country. A sum of $10,000,000 was set aside, and a certain proportion of that has been granted to the various provincial agricultural institutions in Canada every year. Each province has its agricultural schools and systems of education, but the Minister of Agriculture has never found the constitution going to pieces when the Federal funds were thus diverted. If that is so, upon what ground can it be urged that a similar arrangement with the provincial governments with regard to technical education would give rise to a constitutional difficulty? My hon. friend admits that technical education is a splendid thing; he has no doubt at all about its value, but for the time being he cannot do anything on account of the war. Now, I have given one or two instances where the Government notwithstanding the war have found time to devote their attention and give assistance to projects not so meritorious as the cause of technical education. It seems to me, therefore, that their time might well be employed, in working out a scheme of assistance for technical education similar to the plan which the Minister of Agriculture has adopted with regard to agricultural instruction, and which he has been able to carry out without prejudice to the performance of his regular duties, and without detriment to the interests of the country.

We hear a great deal about the necessity for increased production in this country. But increased production should not be confined to agriculture. In all those industries in which our young men are engaged, and which might be called natural industries because they are indigenous to the country and we have special facilities for their development, there should be increased production. Many of these industries provide staple products which enter into the consumption of every home in this country, and from these industries tens of thousands of our young men have gone forth to fight. Many of these men when they come back from the war will be unable to resume their former occupations, and where are we going to get the trained men to take their places except through a system of technical education? The Government very properly have taken advantage through the Hospitals Commission of the facilities existing in the various provinces for vocational training and the poor boyis coming home maimed from the front are being given technical instruction so that they can earn a living in another and perhaps less onerous line of work. This, besides giving them an 'opportunity to lead a useful life, adds to the products of the country.
If we had not had the way prepared by the technical schools that are to be found in every province of, the Dominion, where should we have been in Canada in regard to fulfilling our great duty to our young men who are debarred from returning to their former employments? In view of the conditions, what greater duty could he laid upon the country, what higher opportunity could be afforded it, than to assist, if not to the fullest extent suggested by t'he commission at least to some extent, in order that there may be given in each of these institutions instruction and training to fit our young people for the battle of life, and also to develop industries which will be of the greatest value to the country? One does not need to elaborate the facts which have come to us in these latter days of the marvellous development achieved by Germany under its system of technical education. That nation, though cribbed, cabined, and confined practically within its own boundaries, as the result of the naval supremacy of our Empire, yet has been able, up to this time, to maintain itself by following lines of scientific production. Mr. Hoover, who has recently returned to the United States, and has been given the task of dealing with production in that country, and

who is familiar with the condition of affairs in Germany, tells us?-and the facts are enough to astonish us-that, as a result of the internal conditions of Germany they are able to supply themselves through their own productiveness for six months longer, notwithstanding that their country has been for three years ^encircled by hostile forces. The only reason for this condition is that they have applied science to every walk of life by means of technical education. Through this system they have reached the plain people in every part of their nation, and have enabled them to work out intelligently the scientific principles in reference to production which their investigators have discovered. What, then, is the lesson for us? We are a comparatively sparse population in this vast country, but our aim and ambition always has been that we might make in Canada those things that our people need. Are we going to give notice now to the younger men who are growing up and who have not been able to take part in the war that we are going to do nothing to fit them for the great economic struggle upon which this country must enter in the time of keen competition that is likely to come when the war is over? Or shall we see to it that our coming citizens shall be equipped to be efficient members of the working force of a nation within the Empire in competition with the rest of the world?
In view of these considerations, I say that the duty which my hon. friend from Rouville urges upon this House and this Government is one of such character that we might well refrain from expenditures, such as those to which I have alluded

expenditures which, if this were the time to discuss them in detail, I could prove to be unnecessary at this iime

and devote ourselves energetically to the work of equipping the men of the next generation, those who within the next twenty years will have the destinies of Canada in their charge. We are told that the Government has appointed a commission of experts to inquire into the best lines of industry for our people to engage in. But that commission has practically only got under way. The practical value of any recommendations that they may make will depend upon having the skilled workers to carry those recommendations into effect. If in a year from now we are still discussing this question, we shall face it under greater obligations in the way of increased public debt and so with greater difficulties before us. If this committee of experts is to report within a reasonable time, why should not
we prepare the men by technical training so that they may be ready to put into effect by actual production and in the quickest time those recommendations which we hope will be made as to lines to be followed for Canada's industrial development? I venture to say that there is no question which, among thoughtful people, interested in Canada's future, 'is regarded as of greater importance than that submitted by my hon. friend (Mr. Lemieux). Members of this Government must have heard from men who have given thought to this question as to its importance, and the vital, imperious necessity for action. As they are guardians of the public interest, and guides of the destinies of the country in this crucial time, I submit, the Government will fail in their duty unless they provide at the earliest possible moment financial assistance for technical education; this they can give without unduly burdening the public by simply putting off such expenditures as those. In this way we shall in 'some measure prepare for the conditions which will face us when the war is over.


Mr. CLARENCE JAMESON (Digby):: I shall only detain the House a moment. I am sorry that the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) thought it well to import what might be regarded as a slightly partisan tone into a purely economic discussion. This question of technical education was brought before this House eight years ago. I do not think there is any question in the mind of any hon. member that technical education in some measure at least lies within the power of this Parliament. This question is as to what we are going to do. Eight years have elapsed and I think it is now time that some action should be taken.
As an illustration of need for action, I met the other day the head of a large industrial concern in this country and he told me that some short time ago he had required an efficiency expert for his business; being unable to get one in Canada, he had to go to the United States, where he found a former Canadian, who had secured his technical training in that country and who was most efficient in his special line. To talk of not being able to afford the expenditure which would be involved in taking the necessary steps to put into effect technical education in this country on a broad and liberal plan, is not, I think, a proper view to take. I do not think that a few million dollars expended for such a purpose should be considered at all when compared with
lm

the value of the return which this country, and the generation which is now growing up, will derive from the investment. We are asked to wait-to waif until the war is over. Mr. Speaker, opportunity and time do not wait and opportunity and time are now with us. I do not think this is a case in which we should wait. I do not think we are doing our duty if we do wait. We din not prepare for this war; we could not prepare for it because we did not foresee it hut, in the name of Heaven, let us prepare for the peace which we hope and believe is soon coming.


Right Hon.   S@: Mr. Speaker, I do not suppose there is a member on either side of the House who would controvert the view now very widely acquiesced in, that scientific education, technical education and manual training are necessities of the age. Then if they are necessities of the age, they are certainly necessities for young and growing countries like ours which have to arm themselves in every possible way for the keen contest of competition which lies before them, the extension of trade and the development of resources. We are not to-day ranging onr *selves on opposite sides as regards the necessity for this kind of education, and the benefits that will arise therefrom. We are not controverting the principle therefore, should we take a little different position from that of my hon. friend (Mr.-Lemieuxj who moved this resolution. The resolution is:
That in the opinion of this House action should be taken by the Government at the earliest opportunity with a view to giving effect to the recommendations of the Commission on Technical Education.
That confines action of the Government to that one particular channel, which has been hewn out toy the commission of experts which was appointed to investigate and which gave a very thorough investigation to the question, taking a wide range of countries and a wide range of experience, and embodying within the report a vast deal of most useful and practical information. But no matter how gifted that commission may have been, no matter how wide the investigation it may have carried on, we cannot assent to the proposition that all wisdom lies with any selected set of men. They have embodied in their report, as the result of their investigation, an immense amount of the most useful information, and then they set themselves to make recom-

mendations as to the methods which shall be employed, or the channels along which the assistance to toe given shall flow. There arises an opportunity for honest difference of opinion. The Government after it has thoroughly considered the report and availed itself of the information they have gathered, may agree with many things that the commission recommend, or on the other hand, it may disagree with certain others. If we pass this motion as it has 'been placed before us by my hon. friend from Rouville, there is no latitude given to the Government for the exercise of its own judgment in reference to the methods to he adopted or the assistance to toe given. We are tied down absolutely to give effect to all the recommendations of the Commission on Technical Education. That is why we, or why I, myself, in speaking on this matter, take an opposite view to that taken toy my hon. friend.
No man, on this side of the House, has raised a voice against the necessity for, or the advantage of, technical education and manual training in this country. I am not going to take up the time of the House in speaking on the reasons for this, for I think we have passed the stage when argument is required in support of that principle. It is a question now as to how it shall he done, as to when it is to toe undertaken, and as to how much assistance shall toe given. We must not shut our eyes to two facts bearing upon this subject. One is that technical education and manual training axe as much, if not more, the function of the provincial parliaments as they are of this parliament. By the Act of Confederation, the provinces were given the controlling power over education; but that has not been held to preclude the Dominion Parliament assisting them along this and other lines of education. The provinces themselves, I have always contended, and I think so yet, have the major interest in this matter of technical education and manual training, and provincial effort has not (been altogether wanting in this respect. We find throughout this 'Dominion, that provincial, local and municipal authorities have in later years taken hold of this question and have advanced it very materially. In Toronto one of the finest temples of technical education and manual training to toe found in any country has been erected toy the civic authorities, and it is now in full operation and doing most excellent work not only for the citizens of Toronto, but for others who may take advantage of its facilities.

I know of my own knowledge that in the province of Nova Scotia very effective steps * have been taken towards the promotion of technical education and manual training in different parts of the province. In Halifax there is a notable instance of the activities which are going on. The theory,
I think, is a tenable one: that the provinces have the prime interest; but the Dominion is also deeply interested through several departments of its Government. Trade and commerce depend upon the development of the resources and the production of the country, and so the branch of the Dominion administration over which I have the honour to preside has a very keen interest in the prosecution of this education. The Department of Labour also has an interest in the subject. Technical education and manual training undoubtedly affect production and commerce, but they have an even greater influence upon the character and prospects of the labouring men, particularly artisans, of the country. That is why the Minister of Labour has an interest in this matter. In the Department of Agriculture the same thing applies. The Department of Agriculture, in its desire for intelligent, scientific productivity-and I think we have long since passed the stage of thinking that agricultural productivity can be carried on in any adequate way unless you get down to the scientific principles which underlie it and have worked them out in the development of your agriculture-is also keenly interested in this subject. These are the reasons why different departments of the Dominion Government have a live interest in this matter, and why Dominion aid and the sustenance and support of this Parliament ought to be given to technical education.
Technical education and manual training looked at as instrumentalities towards better production and better development of our resources, and consequently the making of wealth in this development and production, is a fine thing and worthy of the support of provincial and Dominion Governments. But there is another phase which to me seems to be as important, if not more important, and that is the effect of technical education and manual training upon the character and development of the men who are trained under such a system. The difference of character, the difference of stimulus, the difference of ideal, which lies between the man who works mechanically and the man who works because he understands the principle upon which he is working and is creatively 'and constructively
carrying out his work on those principles, is as marked as the difference between the two polles. The man who simply works mechanically may do a good job, but he 'has dullness instead of alertness, he has lack of stimulating interest and force, and the effect upon the character, the work, the life, of the man who works from educated, scientific foundations and principles, creatively and constructively, can hardly be adequately measured. And so by the very fact of bringing the artisan, the labourer, down to the principles of his work and inducing him to work upon them constructively, technical education is a force added to the development of the country in the character of its workers and the character of the children and families of these workers.
I have no desire to prolong the debate, but I have a desire to keep the freedom of the Government in this matter. I do not think that we should be tied down to the narrow limits within which the resolution of my hon. friend does tie us. I propose that instead of taking this resolution of my hon. friend and tying our hands to a certain method which has been laid down by the commission, the Government should be allowed to retain its freedom of action, while not going one whit behind my hon. friend and the spirit of his resolution as regards the importance and the necessity of what he has advocated. I therefore move that all the words after " that " be omitted, and that the following be substituted therefor:
In the opinion of this House the promotion of technical education and manual training is essential to the proper development of the resources of Canada and the extension of her internal and foreign commerce, and that reasonable assistance should be given thereto at the earliest practicable opportunity.
That preserves an equal stand as regards advocacy of the principle itself, and an equal adhesion to that principle, but keeps what I think it is important should be kept; it keeps to the Government freedom of action as to the lines along which it should give assistance, and it also mentions and provides for the practicable opportunity when that can be given.
I have a word to add. I am not making a plea that, because the war is on and is not finished, therefore the Government is entirely absolved from giving assistance towards technical education and manual training. If this amendment is passed, it does not preclude in its terms, the Government, when it has the opportunity, fully

considering this subject, as we shall have to do when the Prime Minister and other members of the Cabinet who are not now here, return. It does not preclude in any way the giving, even at a very early period, of assistance with reference to this matter. The main point, I think, is clear to my hon. friends on both sides of the House, and that is that the purpose of my amendment is to preserve the freedom of the Government as to the methods and lines along which it may give assistance.


Hon. MARTIN BURRELL (Minister of Agriculture):: The Minister of Trade and Commerce has covered the ground pretty well; I wish to say just a word or two in support of the amendment. The fact that the Government could not accept the resolution of the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) should not, I think, imply any lack ci sympathy or consideration on the part of the Government for the subject of technical education. Nor would it necessarily mean that the Government would not move in that direction. The hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) said that this was a non-party question; to that I think we all cordially subscribe. He urged that it was the duty of the Government to adopt the resolution of the member for Rouville and to accept the principle therein stated. I maintain that if the amendment is carried we shall be accepting the principle of the resolution; moreover, it would not have been advisable to accept the resolution in its original phrasing. The resolution states that we should give immediate effect to the recommendation of the Commission on Technical Education.


Rodolphe Lemieux: At the earliest opportunity.


Martin Burrell: It states that that report should be adopted. The member for Pictou, although he wanted this resolution to be adopted in its entirety, let drop a sentence that showed the impracticability of adopting it. As a matter of fact, I remember very well that the discussion which took place in the House on this subject in 1909 was entirely on the question of industrial and manual training. I remember going over the discussion subsequently; not a single word said by any speaker during the whole course of that discussion had relation to the question, for instance, of agricultural training; yet more than half the report of the Commission on Technical Education deals with the question of agriculture. I do net say that that question

is not equally important, but- the recommendations of the commission did not amplify or carry out the intent of the discussion that took place in the House, which related entirely to technical education as applied to our industries. This I conceive to be the great want.
A further remark I wish to make-because it ought to be emphasized in our acceptance of the amendment instead of the resolution-is that it was specifically acceptance of the amendment instead of as stated by many of the premiers of the provinces that they accepted the Government's suggestion to appoint that commission only if its purpose was to be the gathering of information. The strongest possible argument was made on that subject by the Premier of Quebec, Sir Lomer Gouin, who said *
We are of the opinion, my colleagues and myself, that anything pertaining to public education-whether the subject be special teaching or general teaching-belongs to the provinces exclusively, and I want to write you so, in order that there may be no misunderstanding on that point. As, on the other hand, you give me the assurance that the federal authorities, in instituting a commission of investigation, would simply do it with a view to help the provincial governments by having collected information which they would later on put at the disposal of the latter, we see no objection to the appointment of such a commission.
Later, when the commission was appointed, it was specifically started that the report of the commission was obtained in order that it might be put at the disposal of the various provinces, who might deal with it as they saw fit. It was placed art the disposal of every province and my recollection is that not a single province has stated in definite terms to the federal Government whether they approve the adoption of that report. How, then, in the face of that fact, the resolution of the hon. member for Rouville could be accepted by this House, I cannot very well see. For instance, the report recommended an elaborate scheme for carrying out this work, involving the constitution of a Dominion development conference, a Dominion development commission, a Dominion development fund, a provincial development commission, a provincial development council, local urban industrial development boards and local rural development boards. It is quite obvious, therefore, that we should not, as the Minister of Trade and Commerce has said, bind themselves to the specific recommendations contained in that report. One word with regard to what the hon.

member for Pictou said in reference to agriculture. It is perfectly true that we are helping agricultural education. We are doing this by recognizing the jurisdiction of the provinces and giving large grants in aid of the educational work of all the agricultural colleges in Canada. It is true that the same method might be adopted in regard to technical education, but it is quite evident that the provinces themselves-and I think the federal Government would not want to force it upon them against their wish-would not desire that this Government should lay down specific methods in regard to education, even if it were technical education.
The hon. member for Pictou laid a good deal of stress on a matter which is of great importance, and that is in respect to technical education for returned soldiers. I assume my hon. friend knows what has been done in that regard; ample provision is made under the Hospitals Commission, the various provincial Governments co-operating, for the complete technical education of any of our boys who come back from the front-as rightly should be done. The matter of what further steps the Government might commit itself to is one that merits a certain amount of consideration. There is certainly not a member of this Government-and I am sure there is not a member of the House-who is not in hearty accord with the principle enunciated in the amendment introduced by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and, to some extent, in the resolution of the member for Rou-ville. For my part, I do not see how we could accept the resolution, but I am quite sure that the whole House will be in sympathy with the amendment, which, after all, adopts the principle which my hon. friend speaks of.


Mr. MACDONALD:: May I ask the hon. minister if his interpretation of the resolution anticipates action by the Government this session?


Martin Burrell: I do not think my hon. friend would expect me to answer that question, after what the Minister of Trade and Commerce has said with reference to the return of the Prime Minister and others of the members of the Government.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: If the Government would give some assurance on that question, I would feel like supporting the amendment. If we get an assurance from the Acting Prime Minister that something will be done during the present session, I think that would be satisfactory.


George Eulas Foster: I will be perfectly frank with my hon. friend. I am not the Prime Minister of this country; I am only the acting Prime Minister. The Prime Minister and two of his colleagues have been away for a couple of months; we have not had an opportunity of discussing this question lately, and I do not purpose binding myself or attempting to bind the House down to any particular course. If it is specific definiteness that my hon. friends on the other side are after, they will find as much in my resolution as they will in the resolution of my hon. friend. He asks that action be taken at the earliest opportunity. Who is to say what moment is opportune for taking action? The Government, of course. I think my amendment is a little more specific, more practical and less academic than the resolution of my hon. friend. I bring it down to "the earliest practical opportunity," and I have already stated that that does not preclude the possibility of its being done this session.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The earliest opportunity meant during this session.
At six o'clock, the House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


John Howard Sinclair: Just before six o'clock I endeavoured to extract a promise from my hon. friend (Sir George Foster) who leads the House, that some action would be taken on this important matter during the present session. I am not sure that I caught what he said. He addressed honeyed words to the House which probably meant that he fully intends to take some action. I think it would be in the public interest that he should do so, for the delay has been altogether too long. I have had the honour of a seat in this House for twelve years, and I think that nearly every year during that time this question of technical education has been before the House in some form or another. It became an urgent question with the last Administration and was pressed upon them by supporters who felt an interest in it. The result was that some time before they went out of office they appointed a Royal Commission on the subject, which commission has done honest and useful work. We have had in this country many Royal Commissions-as my hon. friends will agree, they have been as thick as blackberries in

autumn. But many of them have not been productive of great results. This one, however, is an exception. The Royal Commission dealing with the question of technical education has done splendid work and has brought in a report that has been recognized by every one in this country as a very able document. I do not say that this Government should adopt everything that the Royal Commission has proposed. Nor would the resolution proposed by my hon. friend from Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) make that necessary. It is rather a technical view to take of the resolution to say that if it is adopted there is only one course for the Government, and that is to carry out all the proposals of the commission. The Government, of course, would be free to adopt a policy and that is what we want- we want action in this matter. Prior to the war, one excuse or another was given for doing nothing, and last year the Minister of Labour, as I recollect it, gave the war as the excuse. He spoke of difficulties on account of the revenue. I do not regard that as an answer. The Government have been free with the country's money in many other directions. Not later than last year we voted a very large sum-some $6,000,000-to the extension of the Quebec and Saguenay railway. I am not saying whether that enterprise is a proper one or not, but in importance it does not compare with technical education. I might mention also the Hudson's Bay Railway, on which we have already spent $17,000,000. Yet that enterprise is not urgent compared with technical education. It is evidently not a question of funds that is troubling the Administration. Besides, I do not think that much money would be needed for some time. I presume that a policy something like that which is carried out in the United States could be adopted here. The state is required to equip a technical school before any assistance is given by the Federal Government. Probably years would pass before some provinces would be able to claim a grant made with those conditions. So, the question pi providing a large sum of money at once does not enter into the problem. I know my hon. friend will agree with me that as a war measure this resolution is particularly important. It is admitted by everybody that, next to winning the war, the greatest question before the people of Canada to-day is the development of the country's natural resources we must have
[Mr. Sinclair.!
trained men; captains of industry are what we want in this country, and we have splendid raw material from which to make them if we give our boys and young men a chance to learn the duties of such leaders. The manufacturers t-hemse1 ves have recognized this, and some have taken practical steps to meet the situation. The town in which I live is the headquarters of the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company. That company encourages its boys to attend the local technical school, and even goes so far as to say to a boy: If you will put in so many nights in a week in that school, it will count on your working time, and you will be paid for it as an apprentice. The boys get through their apprenticeship earlier by attending technical schools. I suppose the same method is followed in other places. This shows the great importance that the manufacturers themselves attach to technical education. I shall not weary the House by dwelling on that, because every one admits that this matter is of vital importance to the people of this country. Both sides have agreed that it should be taken up, and the only question that remains i3 as to when a start should be made. I can see no reason myself why there should have been such a long delay. While my hon. friend may not be able to tell us to-night, without consulting his colleagues, that he will bring down an estimate this session for the development of technical education, if he will say that he will recommend such an appropriation to his colleagues and will use his great influence at the council table,
I shall be satisfied, and I have no doubt that he will be successful. But I am very loth to part with him on this occasion without something definite because we do not want to have to go home and tell our constituents that the question of technical education has been brought up in the House again, and again postponed to a more convenient season. I think that is all I have to say. I am heartily in sympathy with the movement. I felt at first that if my hon. friend did not agree to a prompt step being taken it might be necessary to move to strike out the last words of the amendment and substitute therefor " during the present session of Parliament." But I do not wish to divide the House on this question, as we are all agreed on the general principle. I trust that my hon. friend will give us some more definite assurance than he has given us yet, that something will be done this session in this direction.


Mr. H. BOULAY (Rimouski) (translation) :: Mr. Speaker, I feel like congratulating the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) fo<r the courage and the extraordinary steadfastness of purpose he displays on all occasions, as well as for his activity at every session; his example should be followed by all the members of this House.
I have always taken a great interest in education, and I think the present question, should draw, at this time especially, the attention of the whole country. More than ever before, should we all realize the great necessity of education as an .asset in life. The idea should be spread throughout the length and breadth of this country, and no more ought we to hear in some remote parts that the people should refrain from electing educated men as school trustees because forsooth they know too much. Those ratepayers may be of the same mind as the judge of whom a member from the province of Ontario spoke this afternoon. This colleague went almost to the length of stating that he had heard the judge in question say that all members of the Bar were thieves. In that case, if that be true, I thank Heaven that I never was minded to become a lawyer.
To return to the point, I examined to some extent t'he report of the commissioners who investigated the question of technical education. It is so voluminous that I have not yet been able to go through the whole of it. But from what I heard this afternoon from speakers on both sides of the House, the commission has made practical suggestions which may help us to develop a system of technical education. After being elected to a seat in this House, I made inquiries from the heads of the various departments and was informed1 that in many instances men had to be brought from outside countries to fill positions that required technical ability. I was both surprised and grieved that in this country we had to seek elsewhere for men that we should be able to educate ourselves. That explains why I was impelled after the outbreak of the war to call the attention oif the House to the fact that there were Germans in our Civil Service.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Hear, hear!


Herménégilde Boulay: I contend that in our educational institutions, where men are prepared for scientific pursuits, less time should be given to the study of the Greek and Latin authors and more to science proper.
All the members, those at least who have taken part in this debate, agree upon the necessity of our taking some action along the lines proposed by the hon. member for Rouville. At the same time it was suggested that it might be better for the present to devote our efforts to the objects of the war and postpone until after the war the question raised by this resolution.
On that account I believe the amendment of the Minister of Trade and Commerce should be adopted without a dissenting voice. The hon. member for Rouville himself will acknowledge, from the fact that the Government willingly accepts the principle of hi.s motion, that the amendtnent is timely and should be concurred in unanimously.


Mr. S. F. GLASS (East Middlesex):: I was interested in this question when it was before the House last session, and I wish to say just a few words now. I have seen some of the benefits of technical education in the province of Ontario, where the Department of Agriculture has established a system of district representatives, and I am glad to know that this system is being extended to the other provinces. Seeing the benefits that have accrued to agriculture, the Dominion Government has thought it wise to give specific grants to the provinces, to be used for certain definite purposes. I have here the report for 1915 of the Ontario Department of Agriculture, by which I see that $114,000 was spent through the district representatives. I presume that that amount represents the cost to the provincial government of maintaining the representatives in the various districts. In addition to that, $20,000 was expended to encourage agriculture in schools within the province.
This sum I presume came largely from the aid given by the Department of Agriculture. It seems to me that my hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture acted very wisely when he introduced his Bill to give agricultural aid to the provinces and, in connection with it, to direct, as far as possible, the expenditure of that money along lines that would be educational. I take it that the Department of Agriculture has appreciated the need of practical education as applied to agriculture and we have seen good results from the expenditure of this money. In the province of Ontario, during the short time these appropriations have been available and district representatives have been prosecuting their work, increasing interest in improved methods of agriculture has been shown by the farmers. I remember that when it was first proposed

to undertake such work within the county of Middlesex, the county council, at three successive session's, refused to accept the conditions under which a district ' representative might be placed in their midst because it wpuld require a paltry appropriation of $500. I do not think it was the size of the grant that affected them at all but I believe that the farmers at that time had the impression that a district representative amongst them would be more of a nuisance than a help, that he would not be of any real value and they did not seek to encourage the movement. But, when finally it was presented to them, they adopted the principle and asked the Government of Ontario to place a representative there. It was soon found that the demands on that representative's time were so great amongst the farmers of the district that a second man had to he appointed to assist him and within two years a third man was necessary. The m.ore the farmers avail themselves of the opportunities extended to them through the district representative the greater will be the demand for assistance of this kind. I am sorry to say that as a result of the war, possibly through enlistment of those who have 'been engaged in this work, although the need is as great as ever, it has been found almost impossible to get enough men properly trained and equipped to satisfy the demands of the different counties. In Middlesex to-day one man is doing the work, and he is quite unable to satisfy the demands made upon him. He can only skim over the surface of the work. But, no doubt, when the war is over and more men are trained for this work, we will find that the Government will be willing to give the farmers further help by supplying more men where needed.
In connection with technical and scientific instruction in agriculture in Ontario and the appointment of district representatives, a very important movement has taken place in the initiation of the acre profit competitions within the province. During the winter season classes are held in the high schools at which young farmers and the older ones too, if they care to attend, have the opportunity of hearing lectures on agricultural subjects by the district representatives. To encourage the movement further the Government of the province established the acre profit competitions. A significant thing in connection with these acre profit competitions is the great difference between the minimum pro-

duction and the possible maximum production even amongst those who took part in the competitions. In an acre profit competition in which the crop grown was potatoes, I find that in the Muskoka district one young lad produced, in 1915, 514 bushels of potatoes at a cost to him of $42.02. With the good prices prevailing that year he was able to reap a net profit of $336.72. In Renfrew county, Percy Wright in the township, I presume of Westmeath, produced 421 bushels of potatoes at a cost of $42.09 and with a net profit of $269.81. It runs from 514 and 421 bushels down until the minimum production is reached in the county of Frontenao where 51 bushels per acre were grown by Roy Ewing of Elgin-hurg, with a net profit of $9.87. What I wish to point out is the great difference between the 'possible maximum production and the minimum production. That shows that in order to secure the possible maximum production in root and other crops instead of the average production we must adopt scientific methods of cultivation and the use of proper fertilizers. Therefore, scientific farming and properly applied methods would produce a very much larger proportion of wealth to our country if information on these subjects were more generally disseminated and acted on throughout the province. In connection with these classes of instruction at the high schools five competitions in growing silage corn were held in which young lads attending these classes took part. On the five different plots the average profit was $85.56 at a time when silage corn was worth $3 a ton.
When we take the maximum under that, which reached $100.95, and the minimum, which was only $21.32, again there is an illustration of the enormous difference between the maximum and the possible. It is not necessary to elaborate along these lines. I rise to say that I shall support the amendment of the Minister of Trade and Commerce and acting Prime Minister (Sir George Foster), because I believe he is sincere in what he says, and I do not think it is said with any idea of postponing action. I believe he is fully seized with the need for as early action as possible in connection with this movement. To support and justify that opinion, I have before me a copy of a speech delivered by the Minister of Trade and Commerce on the 18th of April, 1916. He was discussing the matters that were pressing on us at that time, and referring to the activity in our industries, and as a result the large amount of onr exportable products. He said:

Whilst we are glad to see the munition works doing their part in supplying the Empire with that which is necessary, whilst we are glad to have the money which comes as a sequence to the employment, yet all this is not beneficent and productive work and when it stops-yes, before it stops-well before it stops-the people of this country should be putting on their thinking caps, sizing up the situation and getting ready for the inevitable and important change that is to come. The first duty of this House and of the people of the country is simply to face that situation, to get right down before it, face it, think it out and be prepared with plans and organization as to what shall be done when the time arrives. That is the first duty of us all. In the next place, will you allow me, Mr. Speaker, to call your attention to another phase of the question, and that is: what are the practical things that can be done and to what extent are we doing these practical things?
One of the things that I think we ought to do, and we may well do, is to take stock of the situation in Canada as it will probably be when peace comes. What is it in the Dominion of Canada that we shall consume, that we shall find necessary for our daily wants? To what extent can that be produced in Canada, and to what extent must we depend upon outside countries for these supplies? First-and I am not going to labour the point, for I wish to finish my remarks by six o'clock-I think that the thing we ought to do is to sit down and take stock of the resources and of the wants of the country. And with this idea-that, knowing what we require, and knowing how much is produced by ourselves at the present time, and for how much of it we have to depend upon foreign countries, we may, in a business way, set ourselves as Canadians to the solution of the problem of our wants.
I think that in these expressions the minister at that time had in view the movement which he later put in operation for the establishment of a research department. I am pleased to say in connection with that department, and I congratulate the minister on his choice, that when it became necessary to find a chairman to preside over that commission they had to get a man born and bred in the county I have the honour to represent, the county of Middlesex. ' Professor MacCallum has a good reputation. He has, if I may use the phrase, made good; and I believe that the choice the minister has made will be found to be a wise one, and that much good will result from the development of this work. The minister further found that it was desirable, and I think that this was essentially part of the technical training, to arrange to train and equip men to look after our foreign commerce, to train men in languages and in the science of trade and commerce. He said:
At the present time I am contemplating the sending of a special trade commission to the United Kingdom, to France and to Italy. These will be different from our trade commissioners.
I am trying to select four or five business men of Canada-men of capacity, of practical experience, to a certain extent of expert knowledge in the different lines of industry to which they are or have been attached-who will form an honorary commission.
All through the speech he made at that time there is evidence that there was in his mind a keen sense of the needs of this country along the lines of industrial development, and, in connection therewith, of technical and manual training.
The minister further said:
An attempt will be made to co-ordinate the scientific and engineering factors of Canada along the lines of research and technical requirements intimately connected with production and with distribution. I think this is of prime importance to us in Canada. There is to-day in our universities, in our colleges, in scientific societies, and in individual laboratories, excellent resources and ability for chemical research, for all that kind of research which transfers from the laboratory to the factory what is absolutely necessary for the factory at this time, and what will be more necessary for the factory when the period of unexampled competition comes within three or four or five years from now. Science, knowledge, and information are as essential to a well-ordered and successful business as they are to the profession of the doctor or the engineer or any scientific man. Germany's great point of vantage was that her technical and scientific instruction had advanced to such a pitch and had disseminated itself so widely that it worked itself into the very grain of Germany's production and made them the powerful competitors that (hey (were. Britain,, Canada, Australia1 land other countries must not merely take a leaf out of Germany's book; they must sit down before that question and solve it by bringing the aid of scientific research, of engineering capacity, of technical power and expertness into the region of the farm and the factory and the business establishment, and incorporating together those essentials which ought never afterwards to be disjoined.
Then, I think something else should be done, and should be dbne soon. It may be that I have been criticised for not thinking that it should have been done sooner, for I have had many statements and suggestions made to me on that score. Men have written to me and men have said to me: What is your department doing all this time? Should you not get people together, and should you not have them thinking, making plans, mobilizing for the work of the future? Now, I looked upon that in a somewhat different light from some other people. My view was that there was a time at which such an attempt would have been premature. But things have developped by the very force of necessity. The work in Canada had first to be devoted to the furnishing of munitions and war supplies. That took all the energy, and, for the time being, all the thought, all the enterprise, and all the capital, that could be got. The demand was less in normal lines, and consequently less enterprise could successfully be devoted to ordinary production.
I attended a meeting in Toronto in February last of textile manufacturers from all

parts of the Dominion where textiles are manufactured. At that meeting different manufacturers spoke of the difficulty they experienced in. getting properly trained men to manage the departments of the various factories. The problem was 'before them just as it is before the House now of properly training and equipping men to take -charge of the different branches or departments of their factories. They proposed that textile institutes should be established in different sections in proximity to -the factories. The idea was that the country should be divided into sections and that-textile institutes should be established, not *in each factory town, but at convenient central points. It occurred to me then, and I am still of the same opinion, that in such a case as that, some action might be taken by this Parliament similar to that of the Minister of Agriculture in appropriating a sum to help the agricultural industry.
In the city of London, Ontario, we have just completed a technical school which will cost about a quarter of a million dollars, and as a result of the development of technical education in that city the cost of education has increased to such an extent now that the school taxes of the city amount to 33J per cent of the total taxation.
I fully appreciate the fact that the matter of education is left entirely to the provinces, but I argue that, as we have found a means of assisting the provinces in the matter of agriculture, arrangements might be made, before a general programme of technical education is provided, to assist such organization, for instance, as the textile industry in Canada. The Minister of Agriculture has evinced much interest in the flax industry, and has given it much assistance. I rather think that the Department of Agriculture might even assist the Flax Growers' Association and help them to secure an increased interest in the production of flax. In most of the provinces-
I do not say in all, but in a number of them-technical education is a live question, but the present arrangements for carrying on technical education are largely due to local endeavour, with a certain measure of assistance from the provinces.
I do not believe in the principle of granting sums to the provinces on a per capita basis; I believe aid ought to be granted by the Government in proportion to the endeavour made in the respective provinces. It would be inadvisable that any grant from the Government should cause the prov-
[Mr. Glass.!
inces to reduce the grants they are. at present making to the local districts to which they are giving assistance, but rather to supplement them.
From what the Minister of Trade and Commerce said this afternoon, I have not the slightest doubt that this matter will occupy the attention of the Government when the Prime Minister returns. A reference to the speech delivered by the minister in April last satisfies me that the Government will give the fullest attention to the subject, and I am hopeful that as a result of their deliberations some action will be taken during the present session. I believe that it would be unwise to accept the resolution of the hon. member for Rou-ville as he has placed it before the House. I trust that as a result of the discussion which has taken place, my hon. friend will not deem it necessary to press his resolution. If his faith in the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who has suggested the amendment, is as great as mine, he will be satisfied that the Government is fully seized of the need for speedy action in reference to this matter and that effective aid will be given.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 
George Eulas Foster: On that side of the House.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I mean on my right hon. friend's side. I 'am afraid that his good intentions on this question of technical education will receive just about the same support from his colleagues as his good intentions on the question of patronage received last year. When this question was brought before the House last year we had the same pious promise made-not by such a pious gentleman as the Minister of Trade and Commerce-but by the Minister of Public Works, who listened to the debate and who closed it by asking the member for
Rouville to drop his resolution and to accept the promise which he made on behalf of the Government that his colleagues would look into this question with 'a favourable eye, and that at no distant date a substantial amount would be placed in the Estimates in order to give full effect to the principle of my resolution.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am afraid my hon. *friend is putting into the mouth of my colleague words that Hansard will not show that he said.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I would read from Hansard what the Minister of Public Works said, but at the moment I have not the volume here. I remember quite distinctly, not the ipsissima verba of the minister, -but that he asked me to drop my motion and to accept his assurance that the Government would see to it that the question of technical education would receive full consideration at the earliest moment.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The Minister of Public Works did not put it in that way.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have not his exact words .because I have not the volume of Hansard before me. I will, however, give a better authority than the Minister of Public Works. This question is not a new one before the House, and I could give my hon. friend scores of names of my Conservative friends who, when they were in Opposition, were asking the Government of the day to take immediate steps and prompt action in the matter. I have here the report of a speech delivered by a gentleman who is now removed from this sphere of activity to the Senate. I refer to Mr. Crosby who was member for Halifax. Speaking on this question in 1909, Mr. Crosby said:
Shipbuilding has been referred to by the mover of this resolution. One of the good reasons for instituting a technical school in Nova Scotia is that we expect to have a shipbuilding- plant there very shortly and we hope- because our people are very apt and quick to learn-to have men competent to take charge of the principal positions in connection with that industry.
And in 1909 he urged upon the Government of the day to vote a large sum of money so as to give technical education the proper standing it should have in the country. My hon. friend from South Toronto (Mr. Macdomell), speaking in the same debate, dismissing all the objections that were raised against a grant being given to the Government of the day, said:



Even if the Government acted upon that suggestion and issued a commission, and then chose afterwards, in accordance with the recommendations of that commission, to go further and embark on an expenditure of money for the purpose, it could still be done in conjunction and in connection with the various provinces or municipalities in different parts of Canada, whose moneys or other assets could be joined with federal assistance.
Let us now take the case of another very prominent member. I gave this afternoon the very weighty opinion of the present Prime Minister who said that he was entirely in sympathy with the object that the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) had in view, and he added:
I trust action will be taken along the line he has suggested, if no other action can be taken, but so far as I am concerned, I would greatly and infinitely prefer that a more definite and practical and speedy action should be taken than that which has been suggested in this resolution itself.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: You did not think so much of that opinion then as you do now.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The Minister of Labour of the day, the Hon. Mackenzie King, if I mistake not, moved in amendment, that a commission be appointed and the House voted on that amendment, and shortly afterwards, in 1910, an appropriation was inserted in the Estimates, and in the same year after the appropriation had been voted a commission was appointed and the best men in the country were
9 p.m. selected to compose it. That commission went to work in Canada and in about nine other countries, including Great Britain, the United States, France, Germany, Holland and, if I mistake not, Italy, and it reported. When the report was received, my hon. friend (Mr. Crothers) was in office and, as I stated this afternoon, instead of action being taken the report was shelved.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend is quite mistaken in saying that the report was made and shelved. The report was used as It was intended to be used when the commission was appointed. The commission was appointed expressly to gather information for the benefit of the provinces, and that information, When put in the form of a report, was sent to the provinces, and the provinces said: We do not approve it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That is not the conclusion arrived at by the commissioners, and it shows that my hon. friend has not even read their conclusions.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend must have misunderstood what I said. That must have been my fault in not making myself clear. I did not say anything about what the commission said. I said that the commission was appointed by my predecessor, Mr. King, solely _for the purpose of gathering information for the benefit of the provincial governments. My hon. friend said that when the report was made I shelved it. I sent it out to the provinces just as Mr. King said it was intended should be done, and I asked them what they thought of it and they replied in substance that they did not approve it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend is simply playing upon words.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: No.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The	commission was
appointed to investigate and report, and when such a gentleman as Professor Robertson, not to speak of others, takes the trouble of preparing a report comprising four volumes with an additional volume giving recommendations, that report should receive more attention than it has received from my hon. friend. Not one of the recommendations made by the commisr'oners were followed by my hon. friend.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Or	accepted by the
provinces.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What was the result of that investigation? This Government spent $150,000 on the inquiry. The principle has been approved by both parties in Parliament. It was approved by the present Prime Minister of Canada himself, as I showed from one of his own speeches this afternoon. And what has been the result? Mark my words, Mr. Speaker. We have here the Estimates of the Department of Labour for 1918, and we find "Industrial training and technical education, $1,000." One thousand dollars I That is the whole result of that long investigation. My hon. friend the Minister of Labour is willing to promote the cause of technical education to the extent of $1,000, and yet in the dying days of last session-


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Hear, hear.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend may
sneer. He sneered the other evening and got his answer from the other hon, member for Brantford. In the dying days of last session the Government, without consulting the rank and file of the party, came before the House with a scheme involving

the expenditure of $6,000,000 to help some distressed financiers in the province of Quebec.


Mr. GRAHAM:: And in Ontario.


Rodolphe Lemieux: As to this recommendation of financial aid made by Professor Robertson, let me illustrate, for the benefit of hon. members who represent the several constituencies of Ontario, what it would mean for each of the industrial centres of that province to have the money spent according to the recommendations of the commission. In an address on " Education for Occupations," delivered in 1915, Professor Robertson said:-
The people of Ontario could draw from these funds to the extent of over a million dollars annually, besides receiving from Dominion authorities the co-operation arid advisory help of highly-trained and experienced counsellors in starting new kinds of schools, as for example for textile workers-
I call the attention of my hon. friend from Middlesex East (Mr. Glass) to this:-
-and in the development of new industries. In Ontario there are thirty-nine towns arid cities each with a population of over 5,000. These contain a total population of 953,896. It is estimated that within seven years after the policy was well begun there would be in these thirty-nine places about 30,000 pupils in the schools for the education for occupations of those over fourteen years of age. These towns and cities would draw from the Dominion Development Funds up to $380,000 a year.
Then he goes on to give a list of the cities and towns of Ontario and what they would draw from this Federal fund. Ottawa would receive $34,000; Kingston, $7,500; Belleville, $3,900, and so on. I wish to tell the Minister of Labour (Mr. Crothers) that his city, St. Thomas, would gain, something if he were to give a little of his attention to this important question. The city of -St. Thomas would receive annually out of the Federal fund $5,500.


An hon. MEMBER:: What would London get?


Rodolphe Lemieux: It would get $18,500; Brantford, $9,000, and Hamilton, $32,500.


Samuel Francis Glass: I have not seen the report. Would the hon. gentleman please state on what basis these amounts are apportioned? Is it on the basis of population, or on the basis of expenditure by the local authorities?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Professor Robertson
says:
Under the policy recommended by the Commission, there would be two Dominion Development Funds to aid technical instruction and training; one of $350,000 a year to promote prevocational training by means of experimental science, manual training, drawing, domestic science, and nature study; and the other of $3,000,000 annually to supplement local efforts in providing education for occupations for those who are past public school age.

I am glad to see the leader of the House (Sir George Foster) take some interest in these matters. I have lost all hope that the Minister of Labour will study the question and give it due consideration. A year ago I heard an address by Mr. D'Amour, who was at the head of the commercial mission from France that visited Canada and the LTnited States. In that address he dwelt upon this very question of technical education, showing how France had lost and how Britain had lost, against their common competitor Germany, during the last twenty-five or thirty years. I remember very well that he declared that the French Government and the British Government were aware that it is not too soon to give to technical education all the necessary aid and assistance to assure its success. And he'added: "The British and the French Governments will not be taken unawares when peace comes, as they were taken unawares when war was declared." Would that not naturally be the motto of a progressive Government? I am glad to perceive by the statesmanlike remarks made this afternoon by the right hon. leader of the House (Sir George Foster) that he will give to this question the attention it deserves. Under these circumstances, and hoping-in fact being absolutely confident- that during the present session a substantial amount will be placed in the 'Supplementary Estimates to promote the cause of technical education, I accept the amendment of the right hon. gentleman.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Motion as amended agreed to.


Herménégilde Boulay: That, in the opinion of this House, the Government should decide that in the future, men only shall be employed in all branches of the Civil Service where, the salary is $800 or more, and that a Commissioner should be appointed to supervise the work done by the employees in each Department.


Herménégilde Boulay: children lias a grievance. In support of my contention I may read a short statement from a government employee who earns $500 a year; he puts the situation in clea? light showing that $50 and even $600 or $700 are not sufficient at the present time to enable him to provide properly for his family. Here is a part oif his statement published in a local paper:-
"My salary is $500 a year, and as I had the misfortune of having been ill in the course of the year, I have received much less than that to live with, during twelve months.
I have been wearing the clothes with which I am clothed for three years and I have no better ones, and but for the close care of my wife, who is sewing and patching constantly, you would see me in tatters. Yet those clothes bought on credit three years ago, are not all paid for.
As long as I could get credit, the distress was less cruel, but now the creditors seeing no indication of any rise in my salary, refuse to advance to me any more, and even despair to ever recover what I already owe them. As a consequence, I am forced to beg from my friends, my relatives and my neighbors to make up the deficit in the pressing needs of my household.
I have my old octogenarian parents, to whose existence I am bound to contribute; i am deprived of the possibility to accomplish that sacred duty, and the poor old ones are suffering thereby.
We are often prevented from going to mass on Sunday, owing to the lack of the required fee.
I have to walk an average of fifteen miles every day to attend to my work and I cannot once dispose of five cents to take a car to allay my fatigue.
I cannot, as every citizen is called upon, and is bound to do, contribute to the various relief funds and to other charitable organizations, being myself a beggar; I cannot, in short, fulfill my obligations towards my religion, my family and the community-I am an outcast.
In addition to my duties as messenger, I am compelled to work assiduously as a clerk, but I am not paid one cent for that extra work.
My wife is sick and in constant suffering, since several months, and I can't provide any medical assistance to alleviate her painful condition.
Oftentimes in cases of sickness in my family, the doctor whom I could call without having any ready cash for him, prescribed some medicines that I could not get for want of money, and I still have in my possession several prescriptions not filled, to testify to this assertion."
I then asked this man what would be the monthly cost for the strict necessaries of his family, and here is the synopsis he prepared, and which I found very modest and without exaggeration:-
Rent	 $14.00
Fuel	 7.50
Groceries	 12.00
Meat and	fish	 10.00
Bread ..		 1.75
Milk	 96
Lighting	 50

Church	$ 0.50
Payment on furniture	 5.00
Sundries	 2.00

Monthly salary	41.66
Deficit	$12.55
Now, this messenger has no children going to school, what can be the situation of the one who, with such a salary, has three or four of an age to attend school?
Again, we must not forget the clothing, the shoes, the hats, the doctor and the medicine in case of sickness, and which are not mentioned in the above statement. Alas! If death should happen to strike at such a door, in what distressing condition would that family be situated?
In what sad circumstances would this poor wretch leave his wife and children if he happened to vdie; his salary being insufficient to enable him to live, he is far less in a position to pay insurance premiums on his life, or contributions to any benefit societies.
And that is, Mr. Editor, the deed of a Government whose mission is to protect its subjects, a Government having established a department to look after the welfare of the working classes in protecting them against the ambition and the injustice of the employers and contractors, and who itself turns a deaf ear to the lamentation and the pressing solicitations of its own functionaries, here in our Capital, in denying them what they have so legitimately the right to claim, their living and nothing else.
What efficient performance of his duties can we expect from a half starved and half clad servant deprived of all indispensable comforts of living? Here I will protest most vigorously, not only in favor of the messenger, but in the name of the whole community, because the country cannot be getting the efficiency in the public service as it would get from well paid men, free of all moral and physical care.
This state of affairs is inconceivable, it is barbarous, and moreover it is a disgrace for the country, and especially when we consider that certain classes of the same service are so liberally paid and live so sumptuously.
Now, come, honorable ministers and mdhibers, stop for a moment and reflect, look from the midst of your abundance into that chilly and denuded home of your servant who is giving all his time and all his intellectual and physical energy to the country, and if you have a soul and a conscience susceptible of compassion and equity, you will be eager to do justice and at the same time perform an act of humanity by granting to that neglected portion of civil employees a sufficient stipend to enable them to live and thus bring into the homes of these families relief and happiness, peace and cheer, and you will be praised.
Mr. Boulay continues in French: (translation): I am aware that the Government intends to do something for the employees who earn small salaries; there are too many highly paid officials to maintain in a state of poverty numbers of their fellow-workers. Let us take from the salaries of it he women, if necessary even from the

salaries of the higher officials; I do not believe in paying excessive wages. We could dispense with the services of any one who thinks his salary is too low when he gets $4,000 ia year; pult some ooe else in his place who will be satisfied with a fair remuneration.	.
I repeat what I said; those who get the higher pay are those who have less work to do. They reach the office about eleven o'clock in the morning and work only four hours a day. In cutting off -from some salaries and adding to others, the Government would be really helping the unfortunate ones who live in hard circumstances and who are after all the real painstaking employees and who give to the country not only their money but very often their life. The highly paid official is not anxious to enlist.
As I said, rtbe Government intends to raise the salaries in the lower classes of the service; well the sooner that is done the better for those employees who have suffered too long already. I know some married men who are paid $650 and who have told me they could not meet their monthly expenditure. The cost of living has abnormally increased especially this year and there is no doubt that those employees should receive at least $800, if not more.
iMy resolution calls for the appointment of ia commissioner to supervise the work done by the employees in the various departments. It may be objected that there is no necessity for such an official as there are supervisors in the different branches of the service. iMy personal experience enables me to say that much time is wasted; I have seen with my own eyes some officials, with their feet on their desk, reading quietly a newspaper. I hold that the office hours during which they are paid to work should be devoted altogether to the public service; that is my reason for asking that a special commissioner be appointed to go the rounds and supervise the amount of work done by every one of the employees in each department.
I hope my hon. friends who speak another language have understood the plain meaning of my resolution which has reference only to the employment in the departments of ladies at high salaries. I have nothing to say about stenographers and young ladies who are ready to accept small salaries. I speak particularly of those whp axe receiving wages which would permit a man to support a family. That is the main point of my resolution and I think it should be
earnestly supported. I know that I will not have the pleasure of being favourably looked upon by the ladies concerned.


George Eulas Foster: You are a married man, are you not?


Herménégilde Boulay: I am, but I propose this sincerely and in good faith because I think it is in the interest of our country.


George Perry Graham: What is. the Government's policy on this question? I assume that, as the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bpulay) has just stated, he is married and is not in the matrimonial market, he has no object to serve Iby being friendly with the ladies and certainly he does not expect woman suffrage to reach his constituency. Those of us who come from other parts of Canada where the women have been given the right to vote, have altogether a different viewpoint from that of the hon. gentleman. If that viewpoint weTe not superinduced by any other reason it wpuld be iby the fact that a large.and highly respected population, which the hon. gentleman wishes to decapitate officially will probably have in the near future the opportunity of marking their ballots for or against the members of this House. As all thinking men are very susceptible to public opinion I take it for granted that no member from the provinces where woman suffrage lias been established would think for a moment of supporting my hon. friend in Ms resolution. The question which he raises as to the ladies taking the places of men would have sounded better some years ago. To-day we have arrived at a situation in Canada, and in various countries of the world, where women are taking the places of men, and I am free to admit that in many instances they are taking them with as great ability as the men have displayed. I would go further and say that in many offices where the business of the country is transacted men will have to brace up or they are going to lose more of their positions. There is no business man who has in his employ ladies in different positions but will agree with me that during the past few years they have risen to such a high eminence in these positions as to make their services almost indispensaMe. My hon. friend raises another point as to the moral standing but there his argument limps. He argues that the presence of ladies in various public offices is not for the best ininterest of the country. Then he cripples that rather by saying that the standard will be higher if they are

not allowed to get better wages, that a lady will be all right at $800 but that if she. should get $1,200 the temptations would be greater. I take absolutely the opposite view. Then my hon. friend also says that the higher the' salary the less the officials work. Consequently he is going to give the high salary to a man and the low salary to a woman, let the woman do all the work and let the man have the high salary and none of the work. There is something in the contention that men with families ought to be given positions and I agree with him if they are fit for the positions. But the time has gone by when a man can sit around and say: You must give me a position because I am a man, if there is a woman in. sight to fill that position more efficiently. As to the salary, I am rather of the notion that work should be paid for irrespective of the party who performs the work and if a public office sees fit to engage a lady to perform certain services and she proves efficient, there is no reason under the sun why she should not receive the same .salary as the man who performs the same work. I am just simply taking some of the things mentioned by my hon. friend but I would point out to him that he will have to catch up with the procession by the time woman suffrage gets to the province of Quebec or he will find himself without any seat in this House at all. Now, what will the Government's policy be?


George Eulas Foster: Mr. Speaker, I suppose that my hon. friend (Mr. Boulay) has accomplished the object which he had in view and which was to call the attention of the Government, the House and the country to the principles of the resolution which he is advocating and, having done that, he probably does not wish to press it to a vote in the House.


George Perry Graham: He is not strong in his position.


George Eulas Foster: Whilst my hon. friend (Mr. Boulay) was speaking, I noticed the interested look on the face of my hon. friend from South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) and the idea came to me of asking him to answer the argument of my hon. friend from Rimouski. My intuition proved true and my hon. friend from South Renfrew came to the mark in right gallant style. But I had always had the idea that a Frenchman was the embodiment of gallantry and it really took me quite by surprise that my hon. friend, here, who is a good

looking man and a Frenchman, should have had such an heretical opinion in respect to the ladies and especially to the young ladies. That is why I asked him whether he was a married man or not. I wanted to solve that difficulty. But I have another question to put to my hon. friend. The young ladies, he says, spend their money on the toilette, they buy things to make themselves look nice and to keep them warm. What do the men do? If I had a man in my office and he did not keep himself very well dressed and buy things that would make him look respectable, I think I would ask him, for the benefit of the office, to spend a little more on his personal outfit.
My hon. friend, who is not so young as he once was, was once younger than he is now. I *wonder if he, in casting his eyes oveT the young ladies of his locality when he was looking around for a wife, was not a little taken now and then with those who were rigged out nicely, who *wore nice hats and nice dresses. I venture to say that if we could go back and analyse these times, a little distant in the past now, we would find that 'he had an eye for the beautiful in that way just as all Frenchmen that I ever knew anything about have had.


George Perry Graham: I bet he used hair oil,
when he Had any use for it.


George Eulas Foster: My hon. friend (Mr. Boulay) has placed his views before the House. I think I am not stating what is incorrect when I say that the Minister of Finance is cogitating over a measure by which at least the lower grades of the service shall have some addition to their salaries, and when that Bill comes before the House, as I think it will, my hon. friend can advance his arguments to the Minister of Finance. But I am afraid I wall have to tell him that he will not get far with the Minister of Finance if he pursues exactly the same line of argument that he has pursued to-night as against the young ladies.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Kamouraska) (translation) :: Mr. Speaker, I would be untrue to the best traditions of my race were I to leave it to an English-speaking member to enter the lists as the champion of fair ladies who have been subjected to .attack by a representative of my own province, the hon. member for Rimouski (Mr. Boulay). My hon. friend is opposed to ladies being employed in the Civil Service. Why draw a line between the government service and the many other fields of activity in this country of ours? In every branch of

industry, in all commercial pursuits, in professional avocations, in the offices of insurance companies, are to be found young girls and ladies employed as stenographers, clerks and accountants; hon. members who belong to the legal fraternity especially will bear me out when I state that women always give entire satisfaction, that they are even looked upon as the most efficient workers. Why then should they be debarred the service of the Dominion
I wish to point out to my hon. friend that most girls do not seek employment to shut out the men. In most cases they are impelled to look for work by pressing conditions. Their .situation is not of their own choosing, and many of them, should a man offer marriage, would willingly leave their position to which they cling from sheer necessity.
There are many young ladies who are alone to provide for the support of a widowed mother and younger brothers and sisters, for whose education they also pay out of their salary. Why, I repeat, in the Dominion Civil Service should they be discriminated against any more than in commercial, industrial and professional spheres?
I would, however, feel disposed to support the hon. member on his stand regarding determined bachelors. I do not go the full extent with him and suggest they be dismissed from the service. I am not in favour of taking such drastic action, but if he moves to have them taxed- or visited with some other like punishment, I shall not stand in -the way of his motion. The hon. -member takes a wrong position when he puts the -unmarried men on the same footing as the- unmarried women of the Civil Service. The men have the choosing of their career and can change it at will; many girls on the other hand would -readily take to matrimony if they had the choice.
In a word, I believe the hon. member made a false move when he brought in this resolution and he must now be satisfied that it will not enlist the support of the House or obtain approval in this country. As stated by my hon. friend for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham), women on many occasions proved themselves the equals of men; they are now proving it by the material help they are giving in connection with all the undertakings o-f the war in Europe and especially in Canada. To my mind, the hon. member for Rimo-ufki's motion is most untimely.
from entering Government?'


Mr. PROULX:: Mr. Speaker, I sympathize with my hon. friend in only one phase of his remarks, that is with reference to the salaries of the lower grade civil servants, especially the married men of those grades. I have said on other occasions that I oould not see how it was possible for a man to bring up a family on a salary of $500 or $600 a year, and I am glad that the leader of the House has announced that the Minister of Finance (Sir Thom-as White) is contemplating bringing in some legislation in the near future to relieve the situation for the lower grades of the Civil Service. I believe there is top much disparity in the salaries of civil service employees as between the higher and lower grades. There should, of course, be some disparity because the work done by the higher grades is more important and is deserving of better remuneration. But still the salary of any civil servant should be sufficient to provide a living wage, and a man should not he crippled, should not have his family almost starved, because he is in one of the lower grades of the service.
I shall say nothing further now) but shall wait until the measure is brought do-wn by the Minister of Finance. I hope he will -make sufficient provision in that measure fo-r the lower grades of the Civil Service.
Motion withdrawn.



THE EXPENSE OF PARLIAMENTARY SESSIONS.

Mr. W. B. NORTHRUP (Hastings) moved:: -
That, in the opinion of this House, in consideration of the present pressing need for national economy, a Committee of nine Members of this House be appointed, five to be named by the Acting Leader of the Government and four by the Leader of the Opposition, who shall forthwith consider, and during the present session report to this House the total cost, including incidental expenses, of each Session of Parliament, and the best way, if any, of reducing the same, with power to send for persons and papers.
He said: I do not think, Sir, that it is necessary for me to occupy the time of the House at any length in supporting this resolution. In the absence of the Finance Minister I may say that I spoke to him about the matter. He was in accord with the suggestion, and promised, if here, to speak in its favour when it came up.
Without making any charges against anyone, I think that at such a time as this, when thrift is being preached from the housetops, it is well that we'should look into the question of whether we can in -any

way'reduce the expenses of our meetings. Personally, I have a strong suspicion that in half a dozen different directions these expenses might be decreased. I happened to hear in the House the other day an answer to a question with regard to the expenses of Hansard; I merely give that as an illustration. The information given was that Hansard cost the country about $76,000 a year, -the translation costing $36,000. I am sure that it is possible in some way to reduce such an expenditure as that. Without going into details which are well known to every member of the House, 1 beg to submit this motion in the hope that the House will see fit to take this means of securing what has been -so much clamoured for throughout the country- economy-in our national expenditure.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I think we all agree that the motive behind this motion is a worthy one, and for my part I would not object, 'being -an old member of the House, to acting as a member of that committee with a view to shortening, if possible, the length of the session, which is admittedly too long. I am quite sure that my hon. friend has not in mind the curtailing of the privileges enjoyed by those of us in the House who speak in the French language. There is nothing in his motion which suggests that the outcome of any such investigation as is proposed, will be the curtailment of the privilege of the minority to use the French language -and to have the translation of the official documents and of Hansard. I have noticed in the press -some apprehension that the House might, in its wisdom, decide to do away .with the translation and with some of the official documents. With the understanding that this will not be the case, I heartily support my hon. friend's motion.
As regards Hansard, I do not know how we could do without it, though it might be possible to do away entirely with the reporting of the committee stage of the House, having only the main discussions, the debate on the Budget, for instance, reported. In that way you would reduce materially the size of Hansard and make it a little more accessible even to those who have contributed to the filling of its pages.
I wish to add this with regard to Hansard. I have had some experience in various countries, -and I believe that when you compare our Hansard with the English Hansard and with the Congressional Record which contains the reports of the proceedings in the United States House of Repre-

sentatives, and the official report of the debates in the French Chamber of Deputies, you will realize that we have a staff which can compare with that of any parliament in the world. But I am free to admit that the report is far too bulky and that it could be materially reduced in size, in the best interest of the country. Some of the blue-books, too, might be reduced in size. I pay this compliment to the King's Printer, Mr. J. de la Broquerie Tache, a gentleman whom I heartily recommended a few years ago as successor to the late Mr. Parmelee. I believe that Mr. Tache, and his assistant, Mr. Cook, have of late accomplished a very important reform. As you are aware, in former years a copy of each blue-book issued was addressed to each member of the House of Commons. Many of these blue-books, which were -costly, did not reach the members to whom they were addressed, or were not regarded as being very important. Many were neglected and, perhaps, finally sent to the waste-basket. Two years ago, Mr. Tache and Mr. Cook decided that upon the issuance of each blue-book a card should be sent to each member stating that the blue-book was available and that it would be forwarded upon application by the member. I think that was a very good reform, and it has worked wonderful results. Many members did not wish to have some of the reports which were issued by the King's Printer, and by the adoption of the new system the Government has saved a large amount of money. I dare say that other reforms of a similar nature could be made, in the matter of stationery, etc. On the whole, I think that my hon. friend is quite right in moving for the appointment of a committee to look into this matter. In these war times it is a worthy object to endeavour to decrease the cost of administration by reducing as much as possible the expense incurred in carrying on the affairs of this House.


George Eulas Foster: Mr. Speaker, so far as this resolution goes, I think I may say for the Government that not only have they no objection to it, but they will be under -an obligation to the hon. gentlemen who will form the committee, if that committee will devote a portion of their valuable time to the work and give us the result of their deliberations and investigations. The figure that was named to-night by my hon. friend who proposed the resolution is certainly somewhat startling, and I have not the least doubt in the world that if the

committee, when appointed, set themselves to work, they will be able to find ways and means by which the efficiency of this House will not be diminished, but the cost of carrying it on, which now amounts to such a large'figure, may be very materially reduced. I do not wish to debate the question.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Rodolphe Lemieux: Might I call the attention of the Government to a matter which is of the utmost interest to the families of our soldiers. I have received this letter from a gentleman in Montreal whose son is at the front, and who is well known in public life as an advocate of land reform. I refer to Mr. Henry Timmis.
Westmount, 7th April, 1917.
My clear Mr. Lemieux,-
A matter which I should like to see you bring to the attention of the House is that of postage on parcels going to Our men in England and France. By merest coincidence, the son of the woman who does char work around our house is in the same battery as our boy, the 79th. Since her boy enlisted, her husband's health has broken down, her daughter has become an invalid, and so it has become necessary for her to work out two or three days each week for $1.50 per day. It is her custom to send over a box of comforts to her hoy each week or two. On some occasions the postage on these packages at the rate of 12c per pound amounts to nearly a dollar. If parcels were carried absolutely free there might be a disposition to send over unnecessary articles, but surely the Charges should he reduced by two-thirds.
I wish my right hon. friend would take up this question with his colleagues, because there is a hue and cry throughout the country against this rate of 12c. per pound upon parcels sent to our soldiers abroad. If my hon. friend will tackle this postal rate with his usual acumen and with his good heart, he will certainly receive the blessing of thousands of mothers, wives and sisters, who cannot afford to pay such a high rate of postage for sending comforts to their sons, husbands or brothers, or even sweethearts, on the other side.


George Eulas Foster: I shall be very glad to call the attention of the Postmaster General and of the Minister of Militia to the matter, and consult with them in regard to it.



THE CANADA TEMPERANCE ACT.


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. F. B. CARVELL (Carleton, N.B.):: I wish to call the attention of the right hon. gentleman who is leading the House this evening to a matter which I know will interest him. I wish to ask him if the Government will not consider the passing of a Bill to repeal the Canada Temperance Act in those eight counties in New Brunswick in which it is in force. I could introduce a Bill myself to that effect, but, of course,, at this stage of the session it would never reach a point where it would be discussed.
A year ago the legislature of New Brunswick passed a prohibitory law very much after the lines of the Manitoba and Ontario Acts, and it became effective on the first day of May of this year. There are eight counties in which the Canada lem-peranee Act is in force, and for its repeal the law requires a petition to be signed by twenty-five per cent of the ratepayers; then this Government orders ail election to be held, and if a majority of the electors vote in favour of a repeal of the Act the Act is repealed; but that entails a great deal of time and expense, and I believe that it would be well received in the province and would not do violence to any principle if this Parliament should repeal the Act so far as those eight counties are 'Concerned. I therefore throw out that suggestion to the right hon. gentleman and ask him if he will not consider the matter, and, if he thinks advisable, if he will not take the necessary steps to pass the required legislation.


George Eulas Foster: I have had my attention drawn to this matter before, but it has always seemed to me that there are two difficulties in the way. In the first place, the Canada Temperance Act goes into force by virtue of the people's own vote upon it; they call for a vote under certain forms and they, get it. It is the action of the people themselves and not of the Government, and therefore, it is a question of some importance to know whether, if the Government arbitrarily undertook, by passing an Act, to get rid of the law and repeal it, they would be acting in conformity with the wishes of a majority of the people in the county or electoral district that had taken steps to put the Act into force. In the second place the law in New Brunswick, for instance, I suppose

supersedes in Scott Act counties, the Ssott Act provisions.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, that is just the difficulty. It does not.


George Eulas Foster: Then the situation is this: in those eight counties in the province of New Brunswick the provincial law has no force owing to the Canada Temperance Act being in force there, but I suppose the provincial law is of some assistance in enforcing the other Act.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, it is entirely neutral


George Eulas Foster: That remark of mine then may be left for what it is worth and it does not seem to be worth very much, so far as that is concerned. This, however, may take place-'it may be possible that the New Brunswick law, having been enacted by the New Brunswick Legislature can as easily be repealed, and then the Scott Act would remain and would be for the use of the people of those counties. There is a method by which the people themselves can get rid of the Act if they wish to come under the provincial law. It takes some trouble and it takes some expense, but in that way we should know it was the wish of the people themselves. That has been the consideration that has always come up when this question has been discussed before.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is something in what the right hon. gentleman says, that in these eight counties this particular law was brought into force by the votes of the people, but he should not forget the fact that the prohibitory law was brought into force by the representatives of these counr ties. Therefore it is fair to assume that the votes of the people through their representatives enacted a law which they would like to have supersede the Canada Temperance Act, but unfortunately, as the Canada Temperance Act is in force by virtue of an Act of this Parliament, they have no power to repeal it.


George Eulas Foster: That consideration goes a certain distance. It would be quite possible for prominent men in a county to form themselves into a committee calling for the enactment of the New Brunswick law, for instance, and yet they might not represent a majority of the county. When the voice of the people has been legally expressed, you have no right to say that that voice does not still prevail

until the people themselves take the legal methods of informing Parliament and the country that they now wish otherwise. On the other hand, this matter is before the Government and we shall certainly give it our consideration. If there should be some strong expression of opinion from these counties that would convince the Government that they really wanted to get rid of the old law and come under the new, the difficulty would be practically eliminated.



CHANGES IN THE UNITED STATES TARIFF.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: In view of the fact that the Committee of Ways and Means in Congress has reported a Bill proposing to raise the general tariff of the United States by 10 per cent, and to impose a duty of 10 per cent on all items in the free list, it is a matter of importance for Canada to ascertain as soon as possible whether this provision will apply to free wheat, for instance, and the other ramifications of that proposal. Has the Minister of Trade and Commerce any information on that?


George Eulas Foster: As my hon. friend knows, the process of law-making in Congress is different from our process. I should judge from the newspaper reports that this is a recommendation of the Committee of Ways and Means to the House. The legislation, of course, will not he completed until it receives the approval of the House.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Does my hon. friend know any more about the proposal than what is contained in the newspaper reports?


George Eulas Foster: No, but as soon as the Bill goes through copies will be sent here.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Perhaps the Minister of Finance, who is in Washington, could ascertain exactly what it is proposed to do.


George Eulas Foster: It will be easy to find out what the proposal is, and I will act on my hon. friend's suggestion.
On the motion of sir George Foster, the House ajourned at 10.30 p.m.
Thursday, May 10, 1917,