1917-08-06

REPORT.

[Stage Direction]
Extract of an order in council with reference to the scale of subsistence allowance to officers and men' in the Naval Service, also an extract with reference to the scale of allowance in lieu of lodging, provisions, fuel and light for officers and men in the Naval Service.-Hon. Mr. Hazen.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks.)

Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Is G. O. Aiken in the employ of the Government in Kingston?
2.	If so, what are his duties and his salary?
3.	When was he retired from the position of guard, and why?
4.	What was the date of his new appointment?
5.	Who previously performed the duties of the position to which Mr. Aiken has now been appointed?
6.	Why was not a returned soldier given this position?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: Stand.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Might I suggest that this question has been standing for quite a while. It is an inquiry of the Government, and my own view is that no member of the Government has taken any interest in it. I would like to have the question answered.


George Green Foster: I will try to get an answer for my hon. friend.


WILLIAM DAVIES CO., LTD.
Mr. ROSS:: 1.	In regard to Commissioners appointed to investigate the William Davies Company, has the Price Waterhouse Company, of which Mr, Brodie, one of the Commissioners, is a member, ever been employed, or is it now employed by the William Davies Company, or other Flavelle affiliations?
2.	Has Mr. Jeffrey Clarkson, now on the said Commission, or the firm to which he belongs, ever been similarly employed?


Mr. CROTHERS:: 1 and 2. No.


CANADIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCE, RECRUITS AND CASUALTIES.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	What was the total number of recruits enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces during the month of July, 1917?
2.	What was the total number of casualties in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces during the month of July, 1917?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	4,257.
2.	3,637.


IMMIGRANTS LANDING AT RIMOUSKI.
Mr. LANCTOT:: 1.	How many immigrants have landed at Rimouski during the years 1911, 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915 and 1916?
2.	What are the names of said immigrants and their respective destinations?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1 and 2. Rimouski is not a regular port of landing for immigrants. Occasionally steamship passengers destined to the Maritime Provinces desire for their own convenience to leave the vessel at Rimouski instead of continuing the journey to Quebec where the regular examination and debarkation takes place. Such persons are examined either by the agent at Rimouski or by Quebec officials who meet some of the vessels at Rimouski for the purpose of conducting the examination of passengers on the trip between that point and Quebec. No separate record is kept of persons leaving the vessel at Rimouski, and for statistical and other purposes they are reported as having landed at Quebec. Number and names asked for are therefore not available.


HECTOR CARON.
Mr. LANCTOT:: 1.	Is Hector Caron employed by the Government at Rimouski?
2.	If so, what is his occupation and salary?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Immigration agent and immigration inspector. Salary $50 per month.


THOROUGHBRED ANIMALS.
Mr. DELISLE:: 1.	Has the Department of Agriculture placed at the disposal of the county of Chicoutimi certain thoroughbred animals to be distributed among the farmers?
2.	If so, how many animals, and for how long a time?
3.	Who made the request to the department for the said animals?


Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	84. These are loaned really by the year subject to extension or recall.
3.	These pure-bred sires were applied for by various associations of farmers formed according to the regulations which govern the loaning of these sires.


ASSISTANT FUEL CONTROLLER.
Mr. LANCTOT:: 1.	Has an assistant fuel controller been appointed?
2.	If so, what is his name, place of residence and previous occupation?
3.	What is his salary?
4.	What was his salary previous to this appointment?
5.	What are his special qualifications which induced the Government to appoint him?


George Green Foster: I suppose this question may be answered by the .appointment which was made by the fuel controller of an assistant chiefly for work in the United States, to which I referred on Friday or Saturday last. If the question refers to that, and this gentleman is the only assistant who has been appointed, the *answer is:
1.	Yes.
2.	His residence was in the United States. He was a high official in a coal and railway company, in Pittsburgh, I think.
3.	His salary is at the rate of $25,000 a year.
4.	I do not know his salary previous to his present appointment.
5.	His special qualifications are that he has an intimate knowledge not only of coal and its supply, but of railroad transport in respect to coal, particularly to the border. He was appointed on the recommendation of Mr. Peabody, chairman of the United States committee which has the coal problem under its supervision. He was recommended as being the very best available man Mr. Peabody could think of.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: What is his name?


George Green Foster: Mr. McCue.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: An American citizen?


George Green Foster: Yes.
[Mr. Roche.J
ENLISTMENTS IN CANADIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORGE. [DOT]
On the Orders of the Day:


Hon.   S@: The junior member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) asked me *for certain information with regard to the number of enlistments as of June 30, 1917. The request was made on August 1, page 4280 of Hansard. The hon. gentleman may also be referred to a statement I made in respect of enlistments as of May 31, 1917, on pages 3206 and 3207 of Hansard, for July
6.	The following statement will show the figures f
Canadian Expeditionary Force. Reported enlistments to 30th June,
1917	 424,456
Overseas to same date	 329,943
of whom 142,779 in France; 756 elsewhere than in France; 124,399 in England (of whom 23,265 in hospitals and convalescent camps as of 31st May) ; 31,955 killed, died, missing, and prisoners;	3,944 en
route from Canada, and about 26,000 discharged or returned for discharge after wounds, etc.
In Canada	 18,475
Discharged, etc., in Canada	 76,038


NOTICES OF MOTION FOR PRODUCTION OF PAPERS.
Mr. LANCTOT:: For a copy of all documents, correspondence, letters, telegrams and reports concerning the dismissal or the resignation of Dr. Alfred Bouillon, of Matane, as medical officer of the harbour of Rimouski.


LETTERS READ BY SIR WILFRID
[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Mr. Hazen (Minister of Marine -and Fisheries) that the House go into Committee of Supply:
Wilfrid Laurier: A few days ago my hon, friend from the city of St. John (Mr. Pugsley) rose on a question of privilege, intending to deny certain statements made in this House, which he held to be unfounded in fact and deemed injurious to his honour a.s a citizen of Canada and a member of this House. My hon. friend did not only deny the words of which he complained, but he proceeded to read certain letters which bad been long dormant in the .archives of the provincial government at Fredericton, and which more than confirmed the denial he had made before the House. He was, however, stopped in this, on an obejction of the Prime Minister. It

*was held that on a question of privilege my 'hon. friend the member for St. John was particularly restricted to a denial, .and could not go beyond it.
You, Sir, ruled that the point was well taken and I have no fault to find with your ruling. Technically, I think it could not be impugned. You, Sir, held at the same time that the letters might be brought before the House in some other form or at some other time if my hon. friend from St. John deemed it advisable for his own sake to call attention to the matter.
The question has taken on a broader character than was at first indicated or than the simple question of privilege which was raised by my hon. friend. As I shall show the question involves not only the honour, the dignity and character of my hon. friend from St. John, but it involves also certain principles which apply to . the Government of the nation and which it is well to settle, if possible, here and now. The question to which I want to refer arose out of the discussion which took place in this House on the 6th June last, when my right hon. friend the Prime Minister informed the House that the hon. the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) had complained to him that the report made by Justice Galt, to which I need not refer now, was not an impartial report and that he had asked for a further investigation. He apprised the House that the Government had thought well to appoint another commission to review the report of Judge Galt which was to be composed of two members of the judiciary, the chief justice of New Brunswick, Sir Ezekiel McLeod, and a retired judge of the province of Quebec, Mr. Justice Tellier. I interjected in the debate that in my judgment, if this matter was to be reopened, the investigation should take place not through a Royal Commission composed of judges, or through a Royal Commission at all, but before a committee appointed by this House. In the course of the observations which I then made I referred to the attack which was made by the Minister of Public Works upon the character of Mr. Justice Galt. In reply to me the Prime Minister used these words:
My right hon. friend challenges the action we have taken and challenges the reflections which have heen made upon Mr. Justice Galt in the letter written to me from the Minister of Public Works. I should like to remind him that on a certain occasion one of his colleagues who sits beside him used infinitely stronger language, if my memory is correct, with regard to Mr. Justice Landry of the Supreme Court of New Brunswick, and he did so without any
reproof from my right hon. friend. I am perfectly willing to contrast the action which we have taken in this matter with that which my right hon. friend took on that occasion. Findings had been made by a commission of which Mr. Justice Landry was a member. Those findings reflected seriously upon a member of my right hon. friend's Government. The matter was brought to the attention of Parliament, and it was urged by a motion in this House that such finding should be disregarded.
The memory of the Prime Minister was altogether at fault when he stated that the report to which he referred of Mr. Justice Landry had been brought to the attention of the House and that my hon. friend (Mr. Pugsley) had urged that it be altogether disregarded. The report was brought to the attention of the House but it was brought not upon a motion to disregard it, but, on the contrary, it was brought upon a motion which was moved at the time by the hon. member for West Elgin, now the Minister of Labour (Mr. Crothers), to affirm the report and make it the basis of a motion of censure against my hon. friend from St. John who was at that time my colleague in the Government as Minister of Public Works. On the 5th May, 1909, the present Minister of Labour who was then, as now, the member for West Elgin, made a motion in this House but before doing so he recited that a commission had been appointed by the Government of New Brunswick to investigate the application of certain railway subsidies by the Government of New Brunswick at the time that my hon. friend the present member for St. John was a member of that Government, and he concluded:
The unanimous findings of the commission consisting of the Hon. Mr. Justice Landry and Messrs. F. MacDougall and A. I. Teed, appointed by the government of the province of New Brunswick by order in council dated June 5, 1908, and the authorized reports of the proceedings of the legislature of the said province during the session of 1908 set forth serious matters touching the public acts and conduct of Hon. Wm. Pugsley, formerly a member of the government of said province and now Minister of Public Works ;
That persons occupying high offices of state as constitutional advisers of His Excellency ought to be free from just reproach and from reasonable suspicion in respect of their public character and reputation;
That to this end the said findings in so far as they impugn acts or conduct of the said Hon. William Pugsley deserve the serious consideration of this House and demand such action thereupon as may be necessary to enforce worthy and proper standards of public duty.
I should observe here that in.proposing this motion of censure against a member of the then Government, the present hon. member for St. John, the hon. member for West

Elgin, relied altogether upon the proposition that a Royal Commission is a court of law and that the report of such a commission is the equivalent of a judgment. He refused altogether to consider the evidence upon which the report was founded and when challenged with the statement that the report was not in accordance with the evidence, he repeatedly stated that he did not care for the evidence, that he founded his accusation upon the report. Again and again he took the position that the report of a Royal Commission is equivalent to the judgment of a court of law.
It is important here and at all times, and perhaps more at this time than at any other, that we should exactly understand what is the effect of a Royal Commission, its purport and its object. We have only to refer to the statute, which is familiar to everybody in this House, to satisfy ourselves upon that point. The Government is required to institute a Royal Commission for the purpose of obtaining information, for the purpose of looking into some question of public concern, to find out the facts in connection with it and to report the. result to the Crown. A commissioner may simply hold an investigation and place the report before the Crown without expressing any opinion of his own, or he may, if he thinks fit, express an opinion of his own, as he generally does. But it was impossible to maintain for one minute, and no one would do so in this House under existing circumstances, that the report of a Royal Commission is equivalent to a judgment of a court of law. We have not only to look at the statute but at the practice. The Crown appoints a commissioner to investigate certain matters, the commissioner reports to the.Crown, and the Crown presents the report to Parliament, where it may become the subject of discussion by Parliament. It is a matter of elementary knowledge on the part of everybody that the decisions of a court of law are not to be reviewed by Parliament.
The judges are absolutely independent. Their decisions may be right or their decisions may be wrong, but they are the supreme arbiters appointed by the State to settle disputes between subject and subject, between man and man, and under no circumstances are they to be taken as amenable to Parliament; whereas, on the contrary, the reports of commissions are essentially to be reviewed by Parliament. The report of a commissioner, as is stated by all authorities on the matter, is

a useful form of information for the Government and for the public generally, but the opinion which is given by the commissioner is not binding. It is simply an opinion, respectable by the character of the man who expresses it, but it has no value except what value it can find from the truth and the correctness of the report which it places before the public. The present Minister of Labour and then the member for West Elgin (Mr. Crothers), when he made this motion, relied altogether on the report, refused to discuss the evidence, refused absolutely to go back of the report, and when it was objected to him that the report was not according to the evidence, he took the ground that it was of no concern to him that the judgment was equivalent to the judgment of a court. This is what he said on the occasion to which I refer, as reported at page 5655 of the Hansard of 1909:
Mr. Pugsley: I wish to correct the statement of my hon. friend, I was not the managing director of the company.
Mr. Crothers: I am simply making my observations bas^d upon the judgment of this court.
Mr. Pugsley: My hon. friend must pardon me. I say that there is nothing whatever in the evidence which would justify a statement of that kind, and the statement is absolutely untrue.
Mr. Crothers:	I am not here for the purpose of discussing the evidence in this ease.
Some hon. Members:	Oh, oh.
Mr. Crothers: Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to discuss the evidence in the case.
Mr. Pugsley: I am not surprised at that.
Mr. Crothers: I am here ' standing, on the judgment of a court.
Mr. Pugsley: If my hon. friend can And anything in the evidence which will justify some of the statements in the report, I shall be greatly obliged if he will refer to them.
Mr. Crothers: As I said a moment ago, I am not here for the purpose of discussing the evidence in this case. I am standing on the judgment of a court and while that judgment stands we have a right to assume that it is a righteous judgment.
I repeat that the case which was presented to the House in 1909 was certainly a very weak one when the hon. Minister of Labour in asking that censure be passed upon a member of the Government, upon a man who had been for more than 30 years in public life, a prominent citizen of Canada, basing this demand on certain alleged evidence, and making himself responsible for the charge, stated in so many words that he would have nothing to do with the evidence, would not look at it, said that he relied simply on the judgment. Well, I think, for my part, and I believe everybody will agree with me, that the case must have been

a very weak one, when any man, standing on the floor of this House to impugn the character of a fellow-member, will not at least refer to the evidence on which he bases his charge. It is quite true, as was said the other day by the Prime Minister, (Sir Robert Borden), that the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) on that occasion impugned the report of Mr. Justice Landry and his fellow Commissioners; he challenged it in many particulars and in so many words he showed discrepancies between the report presented by- the Commissioners and the evidence. Again and again the hon. member for St. John challenged the hon. member who made himself responsible for the charge to bring forward the evidence of the charge which he made, but upon every point he was met by *a refusal to produce the evidence. It now appears that there was a reason why the hon. member for West Elgin (Mr. Crothers), would not, on that occasion, go into the evidence, but relied upon the report. Let me repeat that the judgments of a Court are not to be reviewed by Parliament. It does not follow, and we cannot expect, that the judges never make mistakes. Judges are fallible like all other men. But'judges are generally selected from amongst a class of men trained in the law, trained to take evidence, and whose character gives a suggestion of security that their judgment will be impartial, the judgment of trained men, and will be generally correct. Although we are all prepared to admit that the judges oi the land generally give satisfaction, yet no one can pretend that they are infallible. They may make errors like everybody else; but if they make errors we must take them as they are, and Parliament has no right to pass upon them. But I repeat that no one will say that this Parliament can treat in the same the way the report of a commissioner, even if that commissioner be a judge. When he sits upon a commission he does not sit as a 'court of law; he is there simply as Mr. Justice So-and so, and his, opinions gain what value they may have from his character and what value there is in the report and the opinions which he expresses will be in accordance with the support which is given to them by the evidence. In this case, I repeat, my hon. friend the Minister of Labour, then a simple member of the House sitting for West Elgin, would not look at the evidence. I say that we can now understand why he would not go into the evidence. A report was made some time ago to the Legislature of New Brunswick, in reply to an address moved by a
member of that House in the following terms:
That a humble address he presented to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, prayihg that he cause to be laid upon the Table of the House copies of all correspondence, between the Premier or any other member of the Provincial Government in the year 1908 and any person or persons relating to the appointment of Commissioners to investigate matters con. nected with the Central Railway Company and the New Brunswick Coal and Railway Company; and also copies of any correspondence between the Premier or any other member of the Provincial Government and any person or persons relating to the report of such Commissioners.
.The report which was brought down by the Government in obedience to this order of the Legislature is composed of three letters which bear directly upon this subject. The first of the letters, not in order of the report, is dated May 21, 1908, and is addressed to the Hon. J. D. Hazen, K.C., M.P., Attorney General, Fredericton, by Mr. Fowler, then member for Kings and Albert, in this House, and now a senator.
House of Commons, Ottawa, May 21, 1908. My dear Hazen:
Yours to hand. I am sorry Trites has declined and I cannot understand why since I spoke to him and had his consent before I mentioned his name to you. There is a very good man, Fred C. Harris by name, who is manager of the Cape Tormentine Railway. There is also Capt. Geo. A. Coonan, of Harvey, A. Co., who built a portion of the Albert Southern Railway, and J. S. Armstrong, C. E., of Rothesay, so you can take your choice. X suggested to the surveyor-general that A. I. Teed, of St. Stephen, might be a good man if Mr. Thorne or W. S. Fisher would not act.
I presume this Tefers to acting in the capacity of commissioner for the investigation.
I still think that you should have a junior counsel to assist Powell in this matter and the small additional expense should not stand in the way as this is a very important thing for us. I believe we can put the genial "Wm. out of business if this matter is properly handled"
There was the animus-"we can put the genial Wm. out of business." The letter proceeds:
Mr. Borden was much pleased to hear that the boys in New Brunswick were so strongly with us on the Aylesworth Bill.
Sincerely yours,
George W. Fowler.
Then there is another letter from Mr. H. A. Powell, who was employed as counsel in the case, which went to show that, as suggested in the letter, if the matter were properly handled, they could put "the

genial William out of business." The letter reads:
Powell and Harrison, barristers, solicitors, j	notaries, etc.,
Hon. J. D. Hazen, Attorney-General, Fredericton, N.B.
St. John, N.B., March 31, 1909.
Dear Hazen:-As I 'phoned you last evening, the report of the commissioners was sent forward by express. The Act authorizing the investigation directed the report to be addressed to the Provincial Secretary to be by him laid before the Governor. This language we interpreted literally and the report is directed to the Provincial Secretary and he can lay it before the Governor, which I presume will be done at once. After that I suppose it will be laid on the table of the House. The Times has printed a number of copies, I do not know how many, which they will forward to you in a day or two.
You will notice in the report there are some corrections made in writing and the errata are gathered into a fly leaf and will be bound with the report. I regret very much that this errata had to be made. Mr. McDougall was very strongly of the opinion that I should have as little as possible to do with the final making up of the rsport, inasmuch as the charge might be made that I and not the Commissioners got up the report. I spent all day Monday with them in Moncton. At that time the report had not been completely drafted and a good deal of the proof had not been read. It was arranged between us that Mr. McDougall would send me down the proof and I would revise it and make all necessary corrections. On Saturday Judge Landry rang me up and arranged that I would go Aip on Monday morning to finally revise their work. On Sunday, however, Mr. McDougall rang me up and told me that he and Judge Landry had finally revised it themselves and the report was all printed, and consequently not to come uo.
On Monday morning Judge Landry rang me up again wanting to know why I had not gone up. Monday night the Commissioners all gathered at St. John with the report completely printed. There are a few things that I would like very much to have had different from what they are. In the first place, I urged on them the great undesirability, in view of you pushing your claim against the Dominion Government for increased subsidy, of minifying the cost of the fifteen mile section and branches as is done on pages fifty-six and fifty-seven of the report, and I drew up myself a statement which could not be used against your contention, but the Commissioners determined to insert the statements on pages fifty-four, fifty-five and fifty-six.
The reference to the Intercolonial on page fifty-five struck me as affording scope to Pug-sley and the newspapers to attack the Commissioners on the absurdity of the comparison between the fifteen mile section and the Intercolonial so I had them insert the words "As was intimated." They had an error of fact in respect to the bridges on the fifteen mile section which I had them correct. Another error was the reference to the provincial engineer having made the estimate; it was the company's engineer.
Another matter which I am sorry has gone in as it did inasmuch as it will give the OpfSir Wilfrid Laurier.]
position press an opportunity to make an attack on the commissioners is the statement at the bottom of page 18 and top of page 19 to the effect that it appears conclusively from the evidence that the whole $250,000 par value of the 3 per cent bonds had been guaranteed and delivered to the company up to August 6, 1903. The only evidence to that effect was an impression Mr. Shadbolt had that the whole $250,000 of 3 per cent bonds which were delivered to him at that time had the provincial guarantee on them. Mr. Shadbolt may have been right in his impression, but the statement is not consistent with the Order in Council with reference to guaranteeing the bonds. In the following two paragraphs the reference to the guaranteeing of the whole $450,000 bonds is somewhat misty. The criticism in this connection should be directed solely to the $250,000 of bonds which were guaranteed for the construction of the fifteen-mile section.
I drafted the portion of the report referring to the guaranteeing of the bonds, but Judge Landry himself changed it in the respects I have mentioned. Fortunately-
And this is why I understand the hon. gentleman from West Elgin (Mr. Crothers) was so chary about touching the evidence:
Fortunately the fellows on the other side will know nothing about the matter, and if the statement is challenged the reporter has Mr. Shadbolt's evidence much stronger than he gave it. Furthermore, I think the judge is right in the statement he makes and it is literally true although the whole $250,000 of the bonds had not then been made use of by the company. Since there is evidence to support the finding I suppose their finding will be accepted.
I suppose both you and Mr. Fleming will go into the matter of the report quite thoroughly when the discussion of it comes up in the House. If there is any matter that you want light thrown upon, or if you want to know the particular source of any information used in the statements, let me know and I will give it to you. It might be a good thing for me to run through the report and mark in the margin the sources of information. Although I would like to have seen several things put more forcibly than they have been and the responsibility for the misappropriation shown	to rest more on Pugsley's
shoulders, I think you will find that the report is pretty strong.
Yours very truly.
(Signed) H. A. Powell.
Then there is another letter from my hon. friend, the then member for North Toronto, now Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster), which reads- as follows:
House of Commons, Ottawa, April 14, 1909.
Dear Mr. Hazen :-
I telegraphed you this morning re the Comm. Reports and trust you have sent me a number. As to copy of evidence I put that in in case you have it printed wbflch probably you have not. It is, I suppose, voluminous.

Why I did so was for this reason. Pugsley so far as now appears will try to bluff the matter out of the House here as not pertaining to Federal affairs. He will say that the report is not based on evidence and that he will, after getting a copy of the evidence, issue a statement showing this to be so. That will be his defence. We propose to get after him here before he gets a copy of the evidence, hut if by any possibility he does get it then we need the evidence to meet him here.
I presume the evidence will not be available in printed form for some time. If he gets a copy I hope you will see that several copies are made at the same time and that we get one or two here.
I have not seen full report hut what I have seen is pretty straight goods.
Yours very truly,
(Sgd.) G. E. Foster.
Now, Sir,- this is the case to which my hon. friend, the member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) wants to call the attention of the House. In 1909 it was sought to censure an hon. member-and a motion was made to that effect-upon a report which is in contradiction in many points of the evidence; upon a report taken by itself independent of the evidence. I lay this as the foundation. I am sure nobody will contradict the statement that any report of -a commission without the evidence is simply the opinion of a man, and has no foundation whatever upon which can be based any ground at all for a motion of censure. Nobody in this House, I am sure, will contend that an -hon. member is liable to censure upon the report of a commission, no matter who the commissioner is, unless evidence accompanies the report to justify it. It would be monstrous; it would be unfair; it would be unjust, to condemn a man simply upon the opinion of a fellow-man without the production of evidence to substantiate that opinion. 'The opinion may be -right or it -may -be wrong, but whether it is right or wrong, the Parliament of Canada, when it is asked to pronounce upon a matter of this kind, has the right to have the evidence before it so that every *member may come to a conclusion whether -the report is or is not justified. The correspondence which I -have read to you, Sir, has proved conclusively that this matter was placed before the House before the evidence was brought out, so that there should be -an ex parte verdict upon the opinion of the commission, not upon the evidence itself. Luckily, the truth -has come out at last, and the member for St. John city, upon the evidence that has now been presented, is fully vindicated out of the mouth of his own adversaries.



SUPPLY.


[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Steele in the Chair.
Naval Service-to provide for the maintenance and upkeep of ships, Naval College, dockyards at Halifax and Esquimau and Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve, $1,000,000.
Hon. J. D. HAZEN (Minister of Naval Service):: It has been my custom, Mr. Chairman, when taking up the estimates of the Naval Department that relate particularly to naval affairs, to make a statement covering the operations of the department during the twelve months ended March 31 of the last fiscal year. It is desirable, I think, that I should follow that custom on the present occasion.


ACTIVITIES OF THE NAVAL SERVICE DEPARTMENT.
[Stage Direction]
During the last session I gave a summary of the operations of the Naval Service Department from the commencement of the war. That -statement will be found on page 3002 of Hansard for the session of 1916. While it is unnecessary again to submit the information already given in that report, I desire to bring it up to the end of the fiscal year 1916-17.
Headquarters.
During the last year the work of the department continued to increase and expand. Some idea of the increase in the amount of work at headquarters may be had from the following statements:
Letters and telegrams received:
January, 1916	 5,079
March, 1917	 8,464
Increase	 3,389
Mir. MARCIL:: Were these letters of congratulation or of -com-plaint? What was the nature of them?


John Douglas Hazen: They were letters in connection with the business of th-e Naval Department.


Mr. NESBITT:: Why did the minister
not give the figures for the same months in each year?


John Douglas Hazen: I gave the figures for the last month before the end of the fiscal year ended March 31, 1917, to show the tremendous increase that has taken place since, my last statement was made.
On August 1, 1914, the total personnel of the headquarters staff amounted to 127 persons. On March 31, 1917, the total personnel amounted to 256 persons.

commercial ship stations and the remaining 13 are commercial land, coast and instructional stations.
The personnel employed in radiotelegraphy in the Dominion is 404, of whom 137 are in the Government employ.
Of the 43 coast stations 42 are owned by the Government. Those located on the west coast and Hudson bay are operated directly by the Department of the Naval Service. Those situated on the Great Lakes and east coast with certain exceptions, are operated by the. Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company, Limited, under contract. Since the outbreak of the war certain stations on the east coast have been taken over and operated directly by the department exclusively for naval purposes.
As regards construction, the department has maintained the different stations under its charge in an efficient and up-to-date condition, so that the Canadian service compares favourably with that maintained elsewhere.
The enforcement of the Radiotelegraph Act has been carried out by the responsible officers of the department in an efficient manner. That section of the Act calling for compulsory equipment of wireless apparatus on certain steamers has been well observed by the shipowners, and no attempts to evade the requirements of the law have been reported.
During the year 141 radiotelegraph operators were examined for certificates of proficiency in radiotelegraphy, of whom 87 were successful. To date there have been 176 certificates of proficiency issued by the department.
The regular work of the stations has been carried out so far as permissible under war conditions, and a surprising increase in both the number of messages handled and revenue collected is shown. The west coast stations operated directly by the department handled 1,741,420 words, as against 1,103,395 last year, and the total revenue accruing was $18,201, as against $7,394.50 last year, an increase of 146 per cent; this is the largest revenue credited to the west coast in the history of the service.
In conclusion, I may say that the operation of the radiotelegraph service has, during the past year, continued to prove the wisdom of the Government's policy of government ownership and control, and the expenditures made on its account are being fully justified.
Stores Branch.
During the year ending March 31, 1917, the activities of the Stores Branch have

been maintained and extended as the requirements of the service demanded.
As in the past, the requirements of the following services have been filled in addition to the Naval Service proper (Imperial and Canadian), viz-Hydrographic Surveys, Tidal and Current Surveys, Radiotelegraph Service, Fishery Protection Service, Life Saving Service, Fishery Patrol Service, Fish Breeding Service, and other fishery services.
Notwithstanding that considerable difficulty has been experienced in obtaining supplies, *mere especially me'tals and textiles, the requisite reserves have been maintained at both dockyards, and in certain instances, very materially increased. A further agreement with the Admiralty to supply Imperial ships in the Pacific with clothing and victualling stores has necessitated a considerable addition to the stock previously carried. The recruiting of the Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve for service overseas in the Royal Navy and for the Canadian Patrol Service has also necessitated the maintenance of further reserves of clothing supplies.
Purchases aggregating in value to $3,884,760 Pave been made. The following is a summary of the values of the various classes of supplies purchased:
Provisions	$ 407,220
Clothing	 893,471
Medical stores	 g 262
Naval stores, not including	fuel	723,286
Puel	1,658,706
Ordnance and ammunition	..	..	53,815
Stationery and printing	 140,000
Total	$3,884,760
These purchases have been made by Headquarters, Halifax dockyard, Esquimalt dockyard, .and the various .ships and establishments, as follows:
Headquarters	 $1,636,544
Halifax dockyard	 125,374
Esquimalt dockyard	 195,675
Fuel purchased on direct charge
at Halifax	 1,004,190
Fuel purchased on direct charge
at Esquimalt	 74,452
Ships and establishments		848,525
Included in the purchases made by Ships and Establishments are the following amounts, for which contracts are arranged by headquarters, viz.:
Provisions	 $150,786
Fuel	 606,560

The amount, $757,346, does not include purchases of fresh provisions by Imperial ships, nor fuel for certain Admiralty and

other transports, which, is not purchased through the dockyards.
Considerable purchases have been made on account of the Imperial Government, and, in a lesser degree, on behalf of allied governments.
Contracts have been made for the charter of thirteen vessels of varying dimensions. The charter of ten others expired during the year, and were not renewed. The total expenditure involved was $294,266.85.
The facilities for issuing supplies of all descriptions to the various services have been fully maintained. The total issues made from Halifax dockyard were $592,926, and from Esquimalt dockyard, $411,270. In addition to the service rendered to ships and establishments of this department and other Canadian Government departments, material assistance has been afforded to Imperial ships calling at Canadian dockyards. Issues to Imperial ships from Halifax dockyard amounted to $254,309, and .from Esquimalt dockyard to $183,624. In a lesser degree, similar assistance has been afforded to ships of allied governments.
The Imperial .authorities continue to avail themselves of our facilities at both dockyards to keep large reserves of special .stores for His Majesty's ships in the Atlantic and Pacific. These are accounted for and in every way cared for in the same manner as Canadian istores. Particular care has to be given to ordnance stores and ammunition, for which special facilities are provided.
The value of the stores in stock at the beginning Of the year was $409,618 at Halifax, and $351,611. at Esquimalt. The value of the stores in stock at the end of the yeak was $628,006 at Halifax, and $477,989 at Esquimalt.
Supplies of coal have been well maintained on both coasts for Imperial and Canadian ships. The total receipts at Halifax amounted to 78,575 tons, and at Esquimalt to 31,711 tons. The issues at Halifax were 77,733 tons, and at Esquimalt 29,626 tons. In addition, .the following were handled on direct charge to the ships : At Halifax, 138,509 tons, and at Esquimalt, 16,545 tons. The following fuel oil was purchased at Esquimalt and Halifax: 107,000 gallons.
Transportation.
During 1916-17 the work in connection with transportation has greatly increased. The director of overseas transport has general control of the traffic inland, by rail
or otherwise, its reception and storage at points of shipment, the allocation of the Cargoes to the different ships, and the storage on board. The Department of the Naval Service is responsible for the movements of these ships, the supply of sufficient tonnage to meet transportation' demands, and the routing of same, .as well as the responsibility of keeping the Admiralty informed on all questions of transport.
Through co-operation between the director of overseas transport and the Naval Service Department, the transportation problems have been, to a large extent, overcome, .and .a high degree of efficiency has been maintained. All expenses in connection with this service .are defrayed by the department on behalf of the Imperial Government, on .presentation of duly certified invoices.
Contracts have been made for the supply of bunker coal as necessary. Two hundred and thirty thousand tons have been purchased from Canadian firms for transports during the .past year. Arrangements have also been made as necessary for repairing, and fitting ships for special purposes, and for the supply of such provisions, stores, .and gear as are required while the ships are in Canadian ports.
The average export movement for the year ended 31st March, 1917, amounted to more than 200,000 tons per month, or roughly, eight fully loaded freight trains of material per day. The monthly total now exceeds 360,000 tons, and the sailings average two per diem. The Overseas Transport Organization has worked with the greatest regularity and despatch. Practically no delays have been experienced throughout the period of the review. The movement has been rendered possible only by the ready co-operation of all transportation companies with the staff of the .service, in all matters. During the financial year of 191617, a total of 386 sailings, comprising 2,429,829 tons cleared from Canadian ports. These figures show a large increase over 1915-16 in which year 198 sailings comprising 970,911 tons cleared, an increase amounting to 206 sailings, comprising 1,458,918 tons. The following is a table of disbursements on account of overseas transport service:
April 1, 1916, to March 31, 1917.
Bunher coal	$1,195,000
Stevedoring ships accounts, etc. 2,697,000 Repairs, fittings, and alterations 215,000
Total	$4,107,000
The thanks of the department are due to the Canadian Pacific Railway company, for the service of a number of experienced

transportation officers, as well as for their ready co-operation at all times. To the efforts of the director of Overseas transport and his staff are largely due t'he success of the whole service. To the success of this service is undoubtedly due the increasing magnitude of the orders now being placed for the products of the mines, forests, fields, and factories o-f Canada by the Imperial and allied governments.
Fisheries Protection Service.
The vessels of the Protection Service have, during the past year, carried out the duties of guarding the fishing grounds along the east and west coasts and in the Great Lakes, -and enforcing the fishery laws. Particularly valuable work was done by these vessels in watching the United States fishing vessels operating outside the three mile limit.
The Fisheries Protection Service vessels were also utilized under the Naval Service in connection with mine-sweeping and patrol duties.
Life Saving Service.
The Life Saving stations were kept in an efficient condition throughout the season of navigation. Owing to the increased use of motor-boats by the fishermen along the coasts the demands upon the Life Saving stations for assistance have been gradually reduced, in many instances one boat -being able to render assistance to another without aid from the Life S-aving crew.
Tidal and Current Survey.-This survey has been successfully carried on in new areas along the coasts and rivers of Canada. A large portion of the navigable waters have now been covered by the survey and navigation has been greatly facilitated as a result thereof. The information obtained is published annually in Tide Tables and pamphlets.
Hydrographic Survey.-Work has been carried out on the east coast at Halifax harbour and at the mouth of the St. Lawrence; in the Great Lakes along the shores of Lake Superior and in Kingston harbour on the west coast, in the vicinity of Queen Charlotte Islands and in the different navigable passes. A number of new charts of the areas surveyed have been prepared and will be published shortly. The activities of this branch of the service have during the past three years, been greatly reduced owing to the enlistment of a number of the permanent staff for active service overseas.
Accountant's Branch.-The total expenditure of the Naval Service Department dur-
TMr. Hazen.l
ing the fiscal year 1916-17 was $16,416,839.36. Out of this amount $4,242,489.99 were expended from the regular appropriation and $4,761,991.96 out of the war appropriation; $7,412,357.41 were expended on account of the Imperial Government, which amount is recoverable.
That in brief measure, is an account of the activities during the year of the Department of Naval Service. There are a great many details which would be interesting but which it would not be proper to make public at the present time. The work of the department, due in very large measure, I feel satisfied, to the active efforts and energies of the deputy -minister, the Director of Naval Service and the other heads of departments, has proceeded most satisfactorily. This work has very greatly increased as was shown -by the increase which has occurred among the clerks of the lower classes employed in the department. The work will likely increase during the coming year if the war continues. Our work in connection with dockyards and the ships of the Allies coming and going has been of the most satisfactory character. There has been little or no trouble in- dealing with them and little or no irritation has been caused in any respect. The different items will come before the committee, and I will be very g}ad to furnish such information as I can to hon. members.


Charles Marcil: The -minister only mentioned one ship, the Niobe. What has become of the other?


John Douglas Hazen: The Rainbow is still in
British Columbia.


Wilfrid Laurier: What about
the Niobe? I have seen a report that the Government contemplated breaking up the Niobe and sending her to the scrap heap.


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Wilfrid Laurier: I saw something of that kind in the newspapers, but I do not always believe what I see there. I would have been shocked if that had been the intention of the Government, although I have seen worse things done by this Government. Where is the Niobe?


John Douglas Hazen: We are making the only
use of the Niobe that is possible. It was not possible to use the Niobe for active service. We are using her as a depot ship in Halifax harbour. Nav-al people are constantly coming and going from the West Indies and other places, and we use the

Niobe for what you might call a naval barracks. She is also used as a training ship. But it is impossible to use her for any defensive purpose at the present time.


Wilfrid Laurier: The Niobe was purchased for the purpose of being used as a training ship.


John Douglas Hazen: At the outbreak of the war and for a short time afterward we used the Niobe for certain patrol purposes on the Atlantic coast. The patrol has been carried on by the ships of His Majesty's navy and the Niobe has for some time not been in a position for service in that respect.


Wilfrid Laurier: The Rainbow, I understand, is being used for the protection of the nsheries on the Pacific?


John Douglas Hazen: It has been used all along on the Pacific.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: How many sailors have you on board?


John Douglas Hazen: The Rainbow carries about 270 men.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Are they all Canadians?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think so. I would think that a good many would be Britishers. A great many are men who have been in His Majesty's navy.


Wilfrid Laurier: How many
boats have we engaged in the protection of the fisheries on the Pacific ocean?


John Douglas Hazen: We have three fishery protection vessels on the Pacific coast. Two, of the type that is employed in the protection of the Irish fisheries, were built at Dublin four or five years ago. The other is an older boat and has been in the service a longer time. In addition to that we charter another vessel called the Lillooet.


Wilfrid Laurier: What about the Naval College? How many students are there?


John Douglas Hazen: The college has had its best year in its history. At present I think there are between 30 and 40 students, practically all we can now accommodate. These come from all parts of the country. There is one from Dawson City, but most of them are from the interior, from Ontario, and a number from Montreal and other points in Quebec. The college is doing well, making good progress, and were it not that the Minister of Finance is urging us to keep down our expenses, I would have asked for a considerable appropriation for the erection of a more suitable building. The old 264
hospital in the Naval Yard, which is now used as the main college building, has become inadequate for the purpose. A new building must be provided, and when that is done, if we continue to have a Naval College, as I hope we shall, the building should be entirely adequate. Those who have gone through the college and entered the Navy have had splendid records. Even if a student does not enter the Navy, the training and education which he receives at the Naval College are of great value to him in civil life, just as the course at the Royal Military College equips a young man for other callings than military life. I am satisfied that, from the development of the last few years, especially the last two years, the college will become one of the most important public institutions in Canada.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is the nature of the education? Does the student, in addition to instruction in astronomy, geography, mathematics, etc., receive any practical naval instruction?


John Douglas Hazen: Of-course, all of the instruction looks towards service in the Navy. During their course at the college the young man receives minor practice on small ships. If he decided to enter the Navy, he spends two 'and a half years on one of His Majesty's ships.	.


Wilfrid Laurier: How many years is the college course?


John Douglas Hazen: Three years.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What success has attended the recruiting for the British Navy under Sir Rupert Guinness.


John Douglas Hazen: It is almost la mistake to say that the recruiting was under him. He came here with a letter .addressed to me by Mr. Balfour, who was then First Lord of the Admiralty, .and he h.ad authorization from the Admiralty, with our approval to enlist men from Canada for the navy. But his authorization was to enlist them at the rate of pay of the Royal Navy, Which is, I think, 36 cents a day. It would have been impossible to enlist men in Canada on those terms. That was explained to him. We communicated with the Admiralty and told them that we were willing to receive and enlist men for the navy, paying them the same rate as is paid in the Canadian navy, which is practically the same as the rate of pay to the troops for overseas service, and that we were willing to .place those men .at their disposal. We feared that



this might not be acceptable ito the Admiralty owing to the objection to having men on the 'some ship under such different nates of pay, but, on consideration, the Admiralty saw no objection. So we arranged to recruit the men with the 'assistance of Sir Rupert Guinness. We organized recruiting boards and great service was rendered by some gentlemen, for instance Mr. jEmelius Jarvis, of Toronto. We turned the Montreal commissioner's office into a recruiting office under the direction of Mr. Ross and the officials of the department, including the assistant secretary, Mr. Fennell, who were most active. In this way we succeeded in enlisting 1,600 men. We found that a great many men who would have preferred service in the navy if the Admiralty had asked us for recruits early in the war, at the time when we suggested such recruiting to them, hut when the British Government said that they pref erred that we should confine our attention to recruiting for the land forces, had akeady enlisted in the army and had gone overseas. But we enlisted 1,600 men, who were sent overseas, and who, I have no doubt, have been of very considerable help. Sir Rupert Guinness 'and his wife, who is a talented speaker, were of great assistance. They addressed recruiting meetings and Canadian Clubs in different parts of the country.


George Perry Graham: The minister has given us a sketch of the work of his department. I presume that most of that work will be paid for out of the War appropriation.


John Douglas Hazen: I said we had spent about $17,000,000. About $4,000,000 in all was paid out of our appropriation for the ordinary work of the department.


George Perry Graham: For the year?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. Another $4,000,000 to be charged up to the War Measures Act and to the War Appropriation, and the balance of the money spent for supplies and purposes of the Imperial navy, and of certain of the Allied navy, because at times Italian and French ships come to our ports, and we have to furnish supplies. That money all comes back to us, but the moneys we have spent ourselves would amount to $9,000,000, of which one-half would be payable out of the appropriation made by Parliament. The other half would come under the War Measures Act.


George Perry Graham: Would the minister be at liberty to tell us what progress Mr. Nor-
[Mr Hazen.]
cross is making in connection with his shipbuilding for the British Government?


John Douglas Hazen: We have been following that work with a very great deal of care. Mr. Norcross, I am glad to say, volunteered his services and rendered us very valuable assistance. We had not enough officials in the department to undertake it, and we had to accept the services of volunteers. This work is progressing satisfactorily, but not so rapidly as we hoped. There is difficulty about getting boilers and engines, which has caused delay. However, a number of vessels have been launched, and we hope to have a number of them in patrol service in such places as the British Government desires to place them. The British Government asked our department to undertake that work, and we are doing it, greatly assisted by Mr. Norcross and certain other gentlemen. The work is being performed in certain places in Canada. In Quebec the work is being done by George Davies, in Montreal by the Canadian Vickers, in Toronto by Norcross and Poison. At Collingwood and Port Arthur, and dif-' ferent points in Canada, work is being done. On the whole, I think it is going ahead satisfactorily, but there are delays in obtaining material, and it has not proceeded as quickly as we hoped it would at the time the orders were placed.


George Perry Graham: We have sent over a number of young men who are active in the .motor-boat patrol service. From along the St. Lawrence several young men have gone, and my information is that they are in the motor-boat patrol, although some of them did not go over for that purpose. It is interesting to know that the education they received as a matter of pleasure on the rivers and waters of Canada has proved of such great benefit to them and to the Empire at the present time. Has the minister any information he can give us about the number of young men who are in that service and what they are doing?
M3r. HAZEN:	Nearly 300 young men
entered as sub-lieutenants, and over a hundred young men for duty as chief motor mechanics and motor mechanics in this branch of the Imperial service. It is known as the Auxiliary Motor Boat Patrol System. We have practically sent over about four hundred young men for that purpose.
Naval service-To provide for the maintenance and upkeep of ships, naval college, dockyards at Halifax and Esquimalt and Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve, $1,000,000.


Mr. PARDEE:: What vessels does the
minister consider naval vessels? -


John Douglas Hazen: All vessels practically engaged in naval service. For instance all vessels that are engaged in the patrol service all around our coast, watching to see that no naval base is established, and on the lookout for any submarine that might appear.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: How many of them are there?


John Douglas Hazen: Something like thirteen or fifteen, I think.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Of the larger types?


John Douglas Hazen: I will get the list.
Mr. KY'TE: But there is a larger number of motor boats employed, is there not?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, but they are hardly regarded as naval vessels. There are a number at Sydney and Halifax used in connection with the vessels at those ports.
Mr. MARCH,: Has anything been seen of the enemy in Canadian waters since the war broke out?


Mr HAZEN:: It is pretty hard to answer. In the early days of the war there was scarcely a day we did not receive a report of submarines being seen. All shipping was stopped on the St. Lawrence. No ships were allowed to go out of Quebec.
This, was done because the statement came from lighthouse keepers that several submarines had been seen in the lower part of the Gulf. We used to hear reports, too, of submarines being seen around the Island of Cape Breton; the member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) no doubt remembers the report that was sent in about their having been seen in the Bras d'Or lakes. They were reported also as being off the coast of Maine. At one time the reports were backed by such evidence that the Naval Department of the United States sent ships down there and were in communication with us in regard to the matter. In nearly all these cases, however, investigation proved that the reports were unfounded. My own belief is that enemy submarines have not been near our coast. We have received even this year reports of that kind that seemed to be well verified, but on investigation we came to the conclusion that it could not have been submarines that were seen.


George Perry Graham: New York harbour was
closed for part of one day.
264J	,	,


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. We have thought
that there would be more possibility of enemy ships operating further to the south if they were on this side of the Atlantic at all. Of course, the submarines can do much more effective work by remaining neaT the other side, near their bases, in the path of vessels crossing to the British Isles. Most probably it would only be for spectacular purposes that they would make a trip over to this side. We are taking every step that we can take in order to combat this danger. I do not think it is possible, having regard to the means of protection that arp being adopted, for a submarine base to be established anywhere along the coasts of Newfoundland or the Maritime Provinces, or in the Straits of Belle Isle. At one time there was a general theory that a submarine base might be established along the Straits of Belle Isle, and that district was quite carefully watched. Up to the present, however, we have had no evidence to lead to the conclusion that any submarine base has ever been established on this 6ide of the Atlantic in Canadian territory.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How many submarines and destroyers have been built at Vickers?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think it is desirable that that information should be given.


Rodolphe Lemieux: There has been no difficulty between the British Admiralty and this country since the war began in respect of naval matters?


John Douglas Hazen: No, the arrangements have been very satisfactory. Everything in connection with dockyards, stores and all such matters has gone very smoothly indeed.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend, who has spoken so favourably about the Royal Canadian Navy, will, I assume, do nothing to repeal the Naval Act?


John Douglas Hazen: The hon. gentleman must not ask me to pledge myself; it is very dangerous to make a promise in these times.


Wilfrid Laurier: At all times.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend says that everything is smooth as between the Canadian Naval Department and the British Admiralty. We are building ships for the British Government; we are employing many men; the patrol of our sea coast is under the direction of the Canadian Naval Department. My hon. friend has excellent officers; he has naval cadets; his naval college is working in perfect order. Besides, my hon. friend has been able to recruit for the British Admiralty during the

year. On the whole, in this respect, my hon. friend is possibly the least objectionable of all the ministers. We are very fortunate indeed in having our Royal Canadian Navy, not only for election time, but for all times.


Charles Marcil: The member for Rouville (Mr, Lemieux) might have added that, as a fortunate and happy conclusion of the antinaval. campaign, the present Government has elevated to the Senate Mr. L'Esperance, the late member for Montmagny, who had given notice in the House of a resolution to repeal .the. law creating the Canadian Navy. He was impelled, however, to withdraw the notice of this resolution. Subsequently he was made Chairman of the Quebec Harbour Board, and, as a faithful reward for his services, he has been raised to the Senate and has voted for conscription. This gentleman was roundly denounced in 1911.


Mr. KYTE:: Is there any objection to stating how many motor boats are leased in Nova Scotia, their sizes, the names of the parties from whom they are leased, and the rate of pay?


John Douglas Hazen: That information ought not, perhaps be given publicly, but I will send my hon. friend the list if he wants the information for himself.
Fisheries Protection Service-To provide for the repairs and maintenance of fisheries protection steamers, $375,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am not surprised that there is no increase in. this vote. I would imagine that the protection of the fisheries is almost a sinecure now. There is no poaching in Canadian waters.


John Douglas Hazen: Oh, yes; we have to watch Pur waters all the time. Only the other day an American vessel was seized within the ithree mile limit on the Nova Scotia coast. A few weeks before that, another one had been seized. A large fishing fleet is off the Nova Scotia coast now, and we have to *watch the vessels as a cat watches a mouse to prevent their coming within the three mile limit. We have not, however, spent the money voted last year. We .are asking for the same amount this year as last. Last year the gross amount spent was $299,000. A portion of the gross expenditure was transferred to the War Appropriation vote, which left the net expenditure at $145,000. I doubt if we shall spend more than half of the amount we .are asking for this year.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Why was part transferred to the War Appropriation vote?


John Douglas Hazen: Because after these boats had finished with the patrol service they were used in connection with the Naval Service.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: On the Atlantic coast?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: I quite realize that we must keep a watch in our territorial waters, because if our cruisers were not there the American fishing vessels might indulge in poaching. I am happy to believe-indeed, I have reason ' to believe that relations .between Canada and the United States .are very much more friendly to-day than some years ago, when we had very serious trouble over the fisheries question. In view of this, I think the expenditure on the fisheries protection service, especially on the Pacific coast, might be very much reduced. Pelagic sealing has been abolished, and I should think that we have not much to fear from American poachers in our northern Pacific waters, although farther .south, in .the vicinity of the San Juan straits, a closer watch no doubt has to be kept. Perhaps my hon. friend will tell us just what the conditions are.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think the fisheries protection fleet ever had anything to do with the protection of the sealing. As my right hon. friend says, pelagic sealing is now a thing of the past, and there is no expenditure necessary for that purpose. In a very short time we expect to receive .a very considerable sum of money under the terms of the treaty that was made. We received $200,000 dn advance, when the killing of seals was prohibited for a period of five years, contrary to the opinion of out scientific men, who- thought that step undesirable. In a very short time we shall be getting 15 per cent of the hides from America, 10 per cent from Japan, and 15 .per cent from Russia.
Although excellent relations exist between Canada and the United States at the present time, that does not prevent individual American fishermen from coming within the three-mile limit and taking our fish if they think they can get away in safety. It is just as necessary to keep a close watch to-day as when onr relations were not so good as at present. The right hon. gentleman referred to the 5 p.m. protection service on the Pacific.
We have to keep a watch upon

the northern Pacific waters where there is a great deal of poaching by American fishing vessels. A large American fleet goes up to the North every year for the purpose of catching halibut, which are caught nearly altogether outside of territorial waters.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is the
base of that fleet?


John Douglas Hazen: Ketchican, in Alaska. Farther south, near the international boundary, a watch has also to be kept. I would again point out that the fact of our good relations with the United States at the present time does pot to any extent reduce the expense of our fisheries protection service, because there is just the same temptation now as formerly for an American citizen to get the best fishing he can wherever he can get it, and if he is allowed to come within the three-mile limit, he will do so.


Wilfrid Laurier: 
Rodolphe Lemieux: Would the minister say what action was taken in regard to the proposed regulations?


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend refers to the treaty that was entered into. The treaty provided that each country should appoint a commissioner, and that the commissioners should prepare regulations for the control of the fisheries in waters contiguous to the international boundary. The Congress of the United States never passed the legislation that was necessary to make that treaty effective, and that the Government of which my hon. friend was a member appointed Professor Prince, and that the United States Government appointed Prof. Starr Jordan. Those gentlemen made the regulations, and they were published. The Parliament of Canada at once, under the terms of the treaty, passed the necessary legislation in good faith to make them effective, 'but the United States Congress refused to pass such legislation on their part. I had a talk with the present President, Mr. Wilson, about it, and came to the conclusion that nothing could be done. Special interests in the United States
prevented Congress from doing what they undertook to do under the treaty,


Charles Marcil: Doee the minister find that, the returns from the Atlantic fisheries this year are satisfactory?


John Douglas Hazen: Fishing was not good in
the early part of the season. It is improving, and on the whole I think it is better than it was last year. In regard to the sardine fishery, which is an important industry in my province, the catch wae light in the early part of the season, but the prices were very high. The fishermen never received such prices before. The salmon fishery has been very good in many parts, but in other sections it was not so good. I think on the whole we shall have a very satisfactory return.


Charles Marcil: What about the cod
fishery.


John Douglas Hazen: It is good.


Charles Marcil: Are there as many fishermen employed as in. other years?


John Douglas Hazen: I have not the figure6 for
this year yet.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The statement has been published in the papers that Mr. Hanna, Food Controller, had succeeded in arranging for the transportation of fresh fish from the Atlantic coast to inland points. I know the department had an arrangement with the Intercolonial some years ago with the same object in view, and I would like to ask if there is anything new in what Mr. Hanna has done in this regard.


John Douglas Hazen: So far as I can learn, the railways are extending to Toronto the service which previously only came as far as Montreal.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Can my hon. friend give any details of that service? For instance, how many cars are in the service?


John Douglas Hazen: I think I gave that information when my fishery estimates were before the House.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is there a daily service?


John Douglas Hazen: There is one express cat service a week, and there is a regular refrigerator car service, by freight, on the other days.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What boat, if any, is protecting the fisheries in Lake Erie?


John Douglas Hazen: The Vigilant.


George William Kyte: Might I ask if the list the minister handed me contains the names of all motor boats employed by the Government in Nova Scotia waters?


John Douglas Hazen: The purchasing agent tells me that the list contains all the names. Of course, these are motor boats. In addition, steamers and tugs are employed.


George William Kyte: I understand some of those motor boats were purchased by the Government. From the sums stated here as having been paid-$1,900, $900, $6,000-I should presume they were purchases. I see some of them are set down as being chartered at $275 a month.'


John Douglas Hazen: I think the return states which were purchases and which were not.


George William Kyte: No, it does not.


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend will see, the return does convey that information. For instance, if he will look at the head of the page he will see "price per month," then, down below, he will see lump sums, such as "$1,900," "$900." Those lump sums are purchases outright.


George William Kyte: Has the minister a list of the steamers and tugboats in the service of the department?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. I will have it sent to my hon friend.


William Pugsley: Some little time ago, I referred to a scheme which was favourably considered by the minister in connection with the sardine fisheries in the counties adjacent to Charlotte. The idea was to give to Canadian buyers of sardines a preference over other buyers. My hon. friend stated that the object was to encourage the establishment of canning interests in Charlotte county promoted by the late Sir William Van Horne. After the decision had been arrived at to impose a condition upon the license that they should give a preference to the Canadian buyers, the resolution of the department was rescinded, and, to use the expression of my hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) the rescinding " synchronised " with the coming on of the provincial election. Owing to the agitation, I think, decision was suspended, and it never became operative afterwards. I am sorry my hon. friend who represents the county of Charlotte (Mr. Hartt) is not in his place, because I should like to give him an opportunity of explaining a letter which he wrote in this connection, which I propose reading. He wrote the Deputy Min-
TMr. Hazen.]
ister of Marine and Fisheries approving of this proposed policy, but suggesting that the change when made should be printed in the regulations ,so as not to attract the attention of the fishermen. My hon. friend did not remember any such letter, but afterwards he was good enough to send me a copy of it. I do not wish to do my hon. friend from Charlotte any injustice and I think it only right that the letter should be placed on Hansard so that the fishermen of Charlotte county may have an opportunity of judging as to the action of the hon. member in that respect, and the hon. member may also have an opportunity of explaining his action, if he desires so to do.


John Douglas Hazen: Did not the hon. member for Charlotte suggest that this be printed in the license so that the fishermen should know it?


William Pugsley: If that were so, it would have been a most admirable desire on the part of the hon. member for Charlotte, but his suggestion was that it should be printed in the license so as not to attract the attention of the fishermen. It is a curious letter. Let me read it:
House of Commons, March 2nd, 1912.
A. Johnston, Esq.,
Deputy Minister of Marine and Fisheries,
Dear Sir,-Your letter of February 29th re the proposed change in the wording of "Weir Licenses'' received.
I approve of giving buyers for the Canadian sardine factories the second but similar privileges as the buyers of bait.
This will not injure the Canadian fishermen, but will make the supply to Canadian factories more certain. X think new licenses should be printed including this provision, and as licenses are not in the hands of fishermen yet, there must be time to make the change, and licenses that are in the hands of fishery inspectors X hope can be recalled and the new form sent out.
Please let me know if this can be done. I know the fishermen will pay less attention to the change if done in this way.
Yours truly,
T. A. Hartt.
What does that mean?


John Douglas Hazen: Does it mean that this
being printed in the license, and the fishermen seeing it there will recognize it as being correct, whereas, if it is not in the license, they will imagine something is being done which is improper and against their interests, and will suspect it is desired to keep them in the dark about it? That is what Mk. Hartt tells me he meant by it-that he wanted the greatest publicity given to it.


William Pugsley: Yes, but the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hartt) has stated that it should ibe printed in the license, and he says:
I know the fishermen will pay less attention to the change, if done in this way.
If it is printed in the license they will pay less attention to the change.


John Douglas Hazen: The hon. gentleman is attaching to the word " attention " a different meaning from what the hon. member (Mr. Hartt) intended. What he meant to convey was that if this is printed in the license the fisherman will see it at once when he gets his license, he will know what the conditions are, and therefore it will give him less trouble, 'annoyance or worry than if this is not done laiter on when his attention is called to it in some other way. The word " attention " is being used in one sense by the hon. member for Charlotte and in another by my hon. friend (Mr. Pugsley).


William Pugsley: What other word would convey what was meant?


John Douglas Hazen: Perhaps he meant to say
" disturbed " or something of that sort. I think I would have phrased it differently.


William Pugsley: Would be " disturbed " less?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


William Pugsley: Well I think that is
about what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hartt) meant. He meant that if it was printed in the license the fisherman would not realize that it had been done and there would be less dissatisfaction among them. It would not attract their attention. But the word " attention " is an ordinary English word the meaning of which is very well understood.


John Douglas Hazen: I think it is a most extraordinary thing to argue that the writer of the letter meant that it would not attract their attention so much if it was right there in the license where they could see it. Surely it was the very thing that would attract their attention.


William Pugsley: But if it were interlined the fishermen would see that the minister meant imposing upon them the obligation to give Sir William Van Horne's canning industry the first right to buy. In other -words, the policy which my right hon. friend determined upon at the request of Sir William Van Horne was that the fishermen would proceed with their catch first
to the American buyers and if the Americans offered $4 per hogshead, Sir William Van Horne's company would say that they would give $4 and then the fishermen would be obliged to sell to Sir William Van Home's company. In a few years the result would be that the American buyers would be driven out of the market completely and the fishermen would be at the mercy of Sir William Van Horne's company.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Would they be obliged to
sell?


William Pugsley: Yes, obliged to sell to the Van Horne Company at whatever price the American buyer would offer. Right up to time the fish are actually taken off, the Van Horne company had to have the first right, just as it was also provided with respect to bait. Such a condition was to remain in full force until the fish were taken from the weir and unloaded from the licensees' boats to the boats of the buyer., So that the fishermen were placed absolutely at the mercy of Sir William van Horne's company. The fishermen were greatly opposed to it. The hon. member for Charlotte (Mr. Hartt) saw, as a sensible man, that it would be opposed by the fishermen. He was so anxious to encourage the establishment of Sir William van Horne's canning industry that he favoured the change, and he requested the deputy minister to see that the license was changed, and that the change should be actually printed in the license and not interlined as he believed it would attract less attention from the fishermen. He says:
I think new licenses should be printed including this provision, and as licenses are not in the hands of the fishermen yet, there must be time to make the change, and licenses that are in the hands of fishery inspectors, I hope, can be recalled and the new forms sent out. Please let me know if this can be done. I know the fishermen will pay less attention to the change, if done in this way.
I would say that what the hon. member for Charlotte had in mind was that if this restriction were interlined it would attract the attention of the fishermen and possibly cause an uproar among them, but if it were printed it would probably attract less attention.


John Douglas Hazen: It is impossible for my hon. friend and myself to say what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hoitt) did mean. I am sorry he is not here, but from a conversation I had with him I think he meant the very reverse of the construction that my hon. friend places upon his letter. However, perhaps before the session is over, the hon.

member for Charlotte will have an opportunity of explaining. From what I know of the hon. gentleman, I know that he would not for one moment entertain the idea of doing anything which would not be in the greatest interest of the Ashmen and of the public generally.


William Pugsley: He is an old school teacher, and he knows what the word "attention" means.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is that regulation still in force?


John Douglas Hazen: No, it never wias in force.


George William Kyte: Some months ago tenders were invited for a patrol service on the coast of Newfoundland. I am aware that a tender was put in by Captain Charles A. Stewart, of Wood's Island, Newfoundland. He received information from the depart ment that his tender was the lowest, but I was never table to ascertain whether a contract had been awarded. I had some correspondence with the deputy minister of the Naval Service on the subject, and the last I heard from Captain Stewart was that an inquiry wias being made at St. John's, Newfoundland, to ascertain whether his boat was suitable for the service.


John Douglas Hazen: How long ago?


George William Kyte: In April. Perhaps the minister would be good enough to write me a letter giving a statement with regard to the position of affairs.


John Douglas Hazen: I will ask my officials to take note of it, and I will have the information sent to my hon. friend.


George Perry Graham: I know the department are very anxious to keep in Canada all the boats we have. Had they -anything to do with the sale of a steamer called the John Webster to the United States Government last month?


John Douglas Hazen: That is a matter the Department of Naval Service has nothing to do with. It might come under the attention of the Marine -and Fisheries Department, but it has not come under my attention. I saw that a steamer named the John Webster bad been s-old to parties in the United States. The steamer was one that went between Brockville and an American port.


George Perry Graham: A new steamer.


John Douglas Hazen: If she -is a Canadian-registered steamer the registry could not be transferred to -the United States without the -approval of the department and the

apprpv-al would not be given without my sanction. It -has not come to -my -attention. Possibly the steamer was registered in the States, and that being so we should have nothing to -do with it. Does my ho-n. friend happen to know whether it was American or Canadian registry?


George Perry Graham: No.
M-r. HAZEN: If it is registered in the United States they -could sell it to whomever they choose without let or hindrance on our part. If it is registered in Canada, before Canadian registry can be clo-sed they have to get the consent of the department.
Fisheries Protection Service-To provide for new vessels, $100,000.


John Douglas Hazen: I have kept that item in the estimates because it was in last year, but under existing conditions we do not intend to expend the money. We fee-1 we ought to have better Ashery protection o-n Lake Erie than we have -at the present time. We have o-n-e vessel, the Vigilant, but in spite of the greatest vigilance the Vigilant can exercise there is no doubt that there is more or less poaching from the American side.
This item was inserted to provide a faster boat for that service, but owing to the general cutting down of expenses we have not proceeded with that work, and we shall try to get along for another season.


Wilfrid Laurier: Has the minister given up hope of having the treaty passed some years ago between the two nations, for the protection of these contiguous waters, ratiAed by the American Senate? It is a very valuable treaty and was pressed upon us by some Americans as vigorously as by our own people. I know that special interests have so far been able to prevent the ratiAcation of the treaty.


John Douglas Hazen: I think Canada went almost to the very limit it could go without humiliating itself with regard to the matter.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


John Douglas Hazen: And I might say to my hon. friend, in all candour, that I think there is practically no chance of it at all.


George Perry Graham: At one time it looked as if Congress were about to consider the matter favourably, but, as the minister said, private interests intervened and were sufficiently inAuential in Congress to prevent ratiAcation. In reference to the Ashing in the St. Lawrence river, particularly in the

Thousand Islands where it is mostly sporting fishing, owing to the conflict of interests between the federal and provincial authorities, what was the business of both for a time became the practical business of neither, and Americans were fishing in our waters among the Thousand Islands with impunity. An arrangement was entered into, largely through the efforts of the Thousand Islands Anglers' Association, by which, while perhaps the letter of the law was not adhered to on either side, the fishermen on each side were controlled. It is difficult to say whether a fisherman is on one side of the line or the other, and thus many poachers escaped. Does the minister know anything about that arrangement and is it still being carried out?


John Douglas Hazen: The Government of Ontario has taken over the administration of its own fisheries. Under the decision we make the regulations, but they are administered by the provincial government. We make the regulations at their request in matters of that sort.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The province has nothing to do with the enforcement of the law on lake Erie.


John Douglas Hazen: Those are commercial fish. We prevent encroachment on our waters by people from the American side, but the province would have control so far as its own people are concerned.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I shall be glad when the Government can afford a swifter steamer on lake Erie because there is undoubtedly a good deal of poaching by fishermen from the other side.


George Perry Graham: Has the Government
changed its attitude in respect to extending the season for fishing every autumn? Regularly, particularly at election times, certain extensions in the open seasons are asked for. It is always suggested and argued that the season hau. been a bad one up-to-date, and that the fisherman will not have had the full fruition of his year's toil unless a certain extension is made.
vVhenever there has been a kind of undertone from the country that there is going to be an election, the fishing season has been bad, judging by the extensions. I think the minister made an announcement in the House at one time that they were not going to do that any more, that they were going to have a certain stated close season which was going to be adhered to, and that it would be fixed after all due
consideration. Would there be any chance this autumn of the minister extending the fishing season, or is he obdurate on that, and will he refuse to do anything?


John Douglas Hazen: We will always be open to reason. If the hon. gentleman would advance good reasons, in the public interest, why it should be done, we will consider it. My hon. friend refers to what I stated in the House. I said I thought the close season should be fixed by statute. At present it is fixed by order in council. Practically every year there are demands for an extension of the fishing season.


Wilfrid Laurier: Would it not be better to have it fixed by statute?


John Douglas Hazen: Perhaps it would be. I know the hon. members from Northumberland (Mr. Loggie), Gloucester (Mr. Tur-geon), and Kent (Mr. Robidoux) would not agree to that, because, they say, there are certain exceptional seasons when it would be a hardship to fishermen if an extension were not granted. Sometimes for weeks in the early season the ice will set in along Northumberland Straits and the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The hon. gentleman from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) made a strong appeal on one occasion for an extension. For weeks people could not get out to fish at all. There are certain seasons when the weather is so stormy that they cannot set out their nets. A great many people are dependent on fishing for their livelihood, and when the seasons are not extended they are without the means of livelihood. Sometimes requests are made which are not justified, when these conditions I refer to do not exist. If my hon. friend has any particular fishery in view, I will give consideration to the matter.


William Pugsley: But the hon. gentleman will not get credit for it, if an election is held.


John Douglas Hazen: I think my hon. friend
will see he gets the credit.


Charles Marcil: Was there a request made in regard to the extension of the season for salmon fishing on the Restigouche?


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot say. A request
came in to-day for an extension of the season for salmon fishing on the Miramiehi.


Charles Marcil: I received a letter from
Mr. H. C. Gillis, Tide Head, N.B., who said he was -not able to put out his net before June 27.


William Pugsley: Will the minister make a statement as to the regulations regard-

mg the size of lobster? Some years ago the late Colonel Tucker who represented St. John's county in Parliament, was appointed on a commission to examine into the whole question of lobster fisheries-I think that was the subject-and I remember how greatly he prided himself upon the fact that no lobsters could be caught of less length than nine inches. He took great credit for that. It occurred to me that his views were sound, because I understood that until a lobster reached that size it had not arrived at the age of maturity, and that it would prevent reproduction of a most valuable species, and would be very injurious to the public interest, if the small lobsters were killed. About two years ago I received a letter from a gentleman who carries on a large business in fish in St. John, enclosing me a little bit of a lobster about two and a half inches in length, which was a sample of lobsters of the waters of the province of Nova Scotia, which were on the market in St. John. It was a great surprise to me. I made inquiries, and I was informed that lobsters at that time could be caught of any size in the waters of Nova Scotia, whereas in the waters of St. John' and Charlotte they could not be caught of a less size than nine inches. The lobster fisheries are of enormous value. I think the	lobster is the	most	valuable
shell fish that can be found. It is in very great demand in all the cities of the United States, and before the war was in great demand in Europe. Canned lobster is a very great luxury, and is a most delicious article of food. I am sure the minister will agree with me that it would be a great pity to have any regulation which allowed the sale of these small fish, and I hope he will be good enough to make a short statement with regard to the regulations respecting the size of lobsters which may be caught.


John Douglas Hazen: The hon. gentleman is quite right. In St. John and Charlotte county there has been a limit for many years. There are no lobster factories in St. John and Charlotte-no licenses are granted lobster factories in either of those two counties.- The lobsters are accordingly shipped away, very largely to the Boston market for sale. The result of there being no lobster factories in St. John and Charlotte county is that in the last few years there has been a email increase in the catch of lobsters in those two counties. The lobsters which my hon. friend refers to in the store m St. John no doubt came from the

south shore of Nova Scotia, where there is no size limit to the lobsters that may be caught and canned. There are many canneries there, the business having been long established. It was claimed on behalf of the canners that fresh lobsters could not be sent to market and sold at a price which would he profitable to the fishermen. The season there is very much shorter than in St. uohn and other places where there is a size limit. I agree with my hon. friend as to the impropriety and undesirability of allowing the catching of immature lobsters, and I believe in a very short time it will be possible to pass a law that will prevent any lobster canneries existing in Nova Scotia at any point west of Halifax. When you get beyond that there is no line of railway across the country, and it is a very long distance for the oanner to bring lobsters around to Canso, and ship them to the United States. But we are right up to the time when it will be possible to prohibit the canning of lobsters altogether, and to enact a size limit such as we have in the counties of Charlotte and St. John.


William Pugsley: How is it on the northern coast?


John Douglas Hazen: If you come to the northern coast you will have to observe the rule there, for the reason that the people in Northumberland county, Kent county and Prince Edward Island cannot get lobsters fresh into the American market, (because it is too far away.


William Pugsley: There is no size limit?


John Douglas Hazen: No. In all these districts there is a difference in the length of the season, having regard to the habits of the lobster. In spite of that, last year, along the Northumberland Straits, up at Point Sabin, there was the largest catch of lobsters in. the district in forty years.
I am told that they were caught in such large numbers that in some cases the factories could not handle them, and they were sent to other factories some distance further down the coast. This year the catch has been very small.


Wilfrid Laurier: That may be owing to the catch being so large last year.


John Douglas Hazen: Possibly. I agree with what my hon. friend says with regard to the catching of the little lobsters at points where there is fair chance of shipping live lobsters to the market to be used in fresh state. I hope that in a short time a regulation may be passed for the Nova Scotia

coast similar to those now in force in St. John and Charlotte counties.
Hydrographic surveys, $290,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: How much was spent on this last year?


John Douglas Hazen: In 1915-16 the expenditure was $231,000 and in 1916-17, up to December 31, $170,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: Upon what basis is this work doner


John Douglas Hazen: This work is for the purpose of having charts made of harbours and coasts. The chart with respect to Nova Scotia is pretty well completed; the same may be said of the lower St. Lawrence. Formerly the Admiralty charts were used, hut in many cases they have been found to be inaccurate. The work is done at different places in different years. The survey is in charge of the gentleman whc has been engaged in that work for many years, Mr. W. J. Stewart, chief hydrographic officer.
The following is a statement with respect to this work:
Atlantic Coast, C.G.S. Acadia.-This survey is being conducted along the southeast coast of Nova Scotia, starting from Halifax harbour to modernize the present charts of that locality.
Lower St. Lawrence, C.G.S. Cartier.-The work of this party is being gradually extended eastwards from the river and work has now been completed as far east as Point des Monts on the north shore and Cape Chat on the south shore. It is intended to carry the work along the south shore embracing the route of vessels approaching the St. Lawrence, during the coming season.
Lake Superior, C.G.S. Bayfield.-During the coming,season it is intended to use this party in surveying the more exposed coasts of Lake Superior, in the vicinity of Caribou island and Michipicoten.
Lake Superior, C.G.S. La Canadienne.- This steamer, owing to her age and small power, is employed in surveying more sheltered waters. Last season she completed the survey of Nipigon bay. This year she will complete Black bay which was omitted in the general coast work. If time permits she will be moved to work in the North Channel of lake Huron.
Pacific Coast, C.G.S.	Lillooet.-This
steamer is working around Queen Charlotte islands and Hecate strait and it is proposed to continue in that locality.
Radiotelegraph service-to provide for the building and maintenance of wireless stations, $295,000.


Charles Marcil: I saw an item in the paper this morning that the wireless telegraph service between United States and Canada and Great Britain had been suspended. That, I suppose, would affect the service in Canada,


John Douglas Hazen: The deputy minister tells me that that was confirmed this morning.


Wilfrid Laurier: I suppose that is a proper measure. I have heard that our signals were being tapped by the Germans.
Tidal service-to provide for the maintenance of tidal stations and surveying steamers, $35,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: How many
steamers are employed in this service?


John Douglas Hazen: Only one; it is really employed for the purpose of the naval service. This is for the maintenance of tidal stations and the preparation and publication of the tide tables, which are published not only for the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, but also for Hudson Bay. The expenditure in 1915-16 was $16,000, and 1916-17, up to December 31, $13,682. I do not think the expenditure will be any larger this year. These scientific services are suffering because of the loss of some of our young men who have gone to the war and whose places we are unable to fill. We are unable to carry on the work, therefore, as accurately as we have done in previous years.
Patrol of the northern waters of Canada, $50,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is being done under this head?


John Douglas Hazen: We expect this will wind up everything in connection with the Sftefanisson expedition. The hon. gentleman will remember that some years ago Stefansson went north under the auspices of the Canadian Government. He has been gone now for over three years, and is expected to return in the course of a few months. His southern party has already returned. I hope that we shall not have to *ask Parliament for any further appropriation in connection with this expedition.


Wilfrid Laurier: I must say that I neveT had much fiaith in Stefansson's expedition. I think it would be very inopportune ito give up the patrol of these northern waters, .because up there we have

lands of great value, which will be of greater value still by-and-by, when their mineral resources .aTe developed. American poachers invade not only these northern waters, but the mainland too, for fur-bearing animals, .and I think we should have cause for regret if the service were discontinued.


John Douglas Hazen: The work my ho-n. friend refers to is carried on largley by the Mounted Police. Stefansson went up north to find new lands, mineral deposits, and anything of that nature that -might be of value to Canada.
Progress reported.
At six O'clock the House took recess.
After Recess.
House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. W. H. Bennett in the Chair.
Civil Government-Royal Northwest Mounted Police-Salaries, $21,712.50; contingencies, $1,700.


George Perry Graham: How many Northwest Mounted Police are there now?


Mr. ROGERS:: We have about 800, I think. There is a proposal to increase the staff, but it is very difficult to carry it out, because the men who would join the mounted police are the ones who join the army and go to the front.


George Perry Graham: Is it not the case that a good many of the mounted police have gone to the front?


Robert Rogers: Yes, a good many of the police have gone over too; but it is necessary to keep the force up to reasonable strength.
Civil Government-Departments generally, $275,000.


George Perry Graham: What wages are now being paid to the poor women who clean up the buildings?	[DOT]


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: They get one dollar per day for a few hours' work. They do not work the full day.


George Perry Graham: Although it may not be relevant to this particular item, as an expert maker of lawns I would like to tell the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) that so long as he allows the sprinkling of his lawns in the middle of the day when the sun is hot, so long will he not have good lawns around these buildings. You might just as well pour hot water on a lawn as to sprinkle it when the sun is shining as it has been for the last few days. I do not

wish to steal any person's job, but if the minister will inquire from any one who has had experience in making lawns, he will find what I say is correct.


Robert Rogers: We do not usually sprinkle the lawns until between four and five o'clock in the afternoon, but during the recent very hot spell we changed the hours of sprinkling, particularly around this portion of the buildings. This was done because the sprinkling had a very cooling effect, and seemed to be much appreciated by those who were working in this Chamber. Immediately the temperature changes we will go back to the old hour of sprinkling.


George Perry Graham: The reason I spoke was because I saw a man sprinkling about halfpast one the other afternoon, and I suggested it was not a very good time for the work. He said his orders were to sprinkle the lawn in the middle of the day. I could understand using a good deal of water on the roads, or even on the building itself, but sprinkling the lawns at that hour of the day will simply kill the grass.


Robert Rogers: The employee my hon. friend refers to was evidently making a mistake. Not only was-he mistaken, but he was violating the rules of the city, because we are not allowed to sprinkle except at certain hours of the day. When we wanted to change the hour we had to get permission from the city authorities to do so.
Royal Northwest Mounted Police, $1,158,169.


George Perry Graham: Every person is in favour of any reasonable vote for the Northwest Mounted Police. I was asking some questions as to the number and the Minister of Public Works gave me some explanation. I think it would be interesting if the right hon. the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden) would say a word about the Royal Northwest Mounted Police force. How many men have gone overseas and how many are in the force now?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: There was a very earnest desire on the -part of practically the whole force at the commencement of the war to enlist for service overseas. But it was not practicable for them all to do that because they were needed in the West. Especially during the past three years they have done very excellent work indeed. Occasionally, from time to time, we have permitted discharge a little in advance to men who wanted to enlist. How many men have enlisted and gone to the front? I am not prepared to say just how many. A few years ago we

increased the force by 500 or 600 men. The term of enlistment was altered at that time from three years to one year. I think nearly all of the men took their discharge at the end of the year. The force now is about 800. In view of the reduction in the military forces in Canada, authority has been given to increase the mounted police by about 500 men. In addition to that, f have had communication with the commit sioner as to the possibility of raising a regiment, or even a brigade, of cavalry, from the Northwest Mounted Police if the time should ever come when cavalry would be needied im any of the theatres of war. We have communicated with the War Office from time to time, but they cannot say at present that any mounted force is needed. However, the commissioner has been authorized to announce that it is the intention to permit enlistment of a mounted force should it eventually be necessary. Some preparation has been made with a view to carrying out this proposal, should it be practicable to do so. The force has been provided with machine guns and a certain number of motor care for expedition in case of certain contingencies that were at one time apprehended. I believe that at the present time the force is in a highly efficient condition. That is the report made to me by Commissioner Perry. I do not know of any further information that I can give, but if any hon. gentleman would like to ask any question, I shall of course answer it to the best of my ability.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: I saw in a newspaper four or five months ago an article headed " The Passing of the Northwest Mounted Police It read as if the Northwest Mounted Police had been done away with. Am I mistaken in supposing that that is the case?


Robert Laird Borden: They are not
done away with at all. Perhaps the article originated from the fact that the arrangements with the three Prairie Provinces, Alberta, Sackatehewan and Manitoba, were abrogated and the force is now used entirely for Dominion purposes. That was done upon the recommendation of the Commissioner who thought that in view of certain changes in the laws of the western provinces the men -were being called upon to perform duties which would not tend to keep the force up to that high degree of excellence which has always characterized it. Under a very old arrangement the force performed the duties of a local police force for the Northwest Territories and afterwards for the new provinces. Legislation in regard to the liquor traffic and other matters
was recently enacted and the Commissioner made reports to this effect: In the first place, that there was ample scope for the time and energies of the force in dealing with conditions as they presented themselves in time of war, and, secondly, that a force called upon to enforce local police regulations was hardly able to maintain the morale and the efficiency which had always been maintained in the past. He recommended that there should be consultation wiith the provincial government. Negotiations were carried on and an arrangement, by common consent of all the provinces, was made by which the amount payable by each province to the Federal Government for the services of the force was to be discontinued and on the other hand the force was to be entirely under the direction of the Commissioner and used for purely Dominion purposes. I imagine that this charge is the foundation of the report to which my hon. friend alluded.
Civil Government-Department of External Affairs-Salaries,	$34,512.50 ; contingencies,


Robert Laird Borden: The increase is due to the fact that the Department of External Affairs has had imposed upon it much more work than in previous years, notably in connection with the issuing of passports'. The number of clerks has been considerably increased and they work very hard, to my personal knowledge. On the other hand, the revenue from the passports issued more than counterbalances! the increased cost.


George Perry Graham: We had some discussion the other evening with reference to the issuing of passports to ladies to go to England under exceptional circumstances.


Robert Laird Borden: There have been two or three eases where that has been permitted since the order in council was passed. The subject is under the general direction of a small committee of the Privy Council, of which Sir George Foster is chairman. I have asked Sir Joseph Pope to be guided by the direction of that committee in respect of such matters.


George Perry Graham: We had some discussion as to what would be considered exceptional circumstances. To be candid, I am interested in a case of this kind. A bright young man was engaged to be married to a young lady. The ceremony was to take place within a few weeks, when he was ordered overseas. On the advice of friends, it was arranged that the ceremony should take

place in England, and he was to send for the young lady after his arrival there. It does seem a hardship that in such a case the young lady should be refused permission to cross.


John Douglas Hazen: I think I shall have to
join hands with my hon. friend and see if we cannot influence the obdurate hearts of Sir George Foster and Sir Joseph Pope. I have been for some time urging the case of a young lady, but I have been able to make no more impression than my hon. friend.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What would be done in a case where a woman's husband had gone to England and obtained a permanent position there? Would she be allowed to go?


Robert Laird Borden: I am afraid I
could not answer my hon. friend. I have not had much to do personally with these cases. While I was in England I made an application in a case of very severe illness. .In another case where I sought to secure some modification, at the instance of one of the members of the House, 1 was entirely unsuccessful. I think if my hon. friends would speak to Sir Joseph Pope it would be the most effective course.
Salaries and contingent expenses of the Board of Pension Commissioners for Canada, $375,000.


George Perry Graham: Was not an Act passed establishing this board?


Robert Laird Borden: No Act was
passed. An order in council was passed to give effect to the committee of last year.


George Perry Graham: We had something before us the other day in the House.


Robert Laird Borden: There is a resolution on the Order Paper.
Mr. GRaHAM : We had a resolution on it, had we not?	-	.


Robert Laird Borden: The resolution
relates to the scale of pensions. This is intended to be the foundation of an Act.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: It has nothing to do
with the matter we are discussing.


Robert Laird Borden: Not directly.
This item represents the expenses of the board which would administer the regulations that are now carried out under an order in council, but will eventually be carried out under statute.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: This is an increase.
Could anybody tell us how much of that was used last year?


John Douglas Hazen: It is a new item.


George Perry Graham: In the House the other night we were discussing the question of pensions, not on an item in the estimates, but on a resolution.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think
we discussed that question.
Mr. 'GRAHAMI:	Some member of the
Government explained that what had
hitherto been done by order in council or regulation in reference to the appointment of a pensions fooaTd was now to be done by statute.


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, but the
statute has not yet been enacted.


George Perry Graham: At what stage is it?.


Robert Laird Borden: At the stage of a resolution on which to found a Bill.


George Perry Graham: The resolution is in the name of the Finance Minister (Sir Thomas White) and reads:	"Resolved that it is
expedient to establish a commission to be known as The Board of Pensions Commissioners for Canada ''-and so on-
This board is to be established by statute?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, the commission made a unanimous Teport. There was no time to pass an Act last year. The recommendations of the commissioners were made effective by order in council under the War Measures Act. This resolution on the Order Paper is intended to be the foundation of the Bill.


George Perry Graham: Are any members of that board acting without salary?


Robert Laird Borden: The chairman of the board does not receive a salary, although he is entitled to it.


George Perry Graham: That is Mr. Ross. What are the salaries of the other two gentlemen?


Robert Laird Borden: Five thousand dollars.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Would this item include salaries of the commissioners after the Bill is passed?


Robert Laird Borden: Salaries and contingent expenses.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Salaries would be included?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes.


George Perry Graham: How much money has been paid out of the pensions fund?


Mr. REID:: When we take up item 79 we will have full information in regard to that.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Will information be given later which will show what that $375,000 is made up Of?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: The item says: "Salaries and contingent expenses, Board of Pensions Commissioners." The salaries cannot amount to very much, but the contingent expenses must be a very large item.


Robert Laird Borden: They have a
pretty large staff. They have taken over a good many of the officers in the Department of Militia and Defence wiho were engaged in doing this work on a much smaller scale before the board was established. Besides that, they brought in a considerable additional staff. I have no information about it here, but when we take up item 79 I think we can give my hon. friend full information.
High Commissioner's Office, London-Salaries, $21,650 ; contingencies, $58,151.


George Perry Graham: How big a staff has the High Commissioner as High Commissioner?


Robert Laird Borden: I cannot give my hon. friend accurate information as to the number of the staff, but I know that it has been very considerably in creased, and contingent expenses in the way of telegrams and expenses of that character generally have naturally been very considerably increased since the war broke out. Sir George Perley has received, during all the time he has been over there, no salary whatever as High Commissioner, nor as Minister of - the Overseas Service, and I understand that he is not willing to receive a salary in either capacity, although there is a resolution on the Order Paper providing for a salary to him as Minister of the Overseas Service.


Mr. GERMAN:: Does the right hon. gentleman not think it would be more becoming, and more seemly to Canada, for our High Commissioner to be Teally High Commissioner, and draw his salary, and not represent a constituency in Canada, when he is really not sitting in Parliament and not actually representing the constituency at all? He is acting in a treble capacity: He is member for Argenteuii; he is High Commissioner; and he is Overseas Minister of Militia. It seems to me it is placing too much of a burden on one man, particularly when he is not drawing any salary in any of these offices. It looks very much to me as though he should fill one capacity, and
the man who fills one capacity and does it well is doing about all that one man is able to do. It looks to me as though he were overburdened with duties. He cannot perform all these duties and do them properly. I submit, the High Commissioner should be the High Commissioner and should have a salary commensurate with the duties of the high position which he fills. He should not occupy the three positions I have named. I think that instead of considering a union Government the right hon. Prime Minister had better dis-unionize that position.


Robert Laird Borden: I think that particular union has worked very well indeed so far. With a good deal of what my hon. friend says, I should be inclined to agree. It must be remembered that Sir George Perley went over in June, 1914, intending to return in September of the same year. The war broke out, and he has remained at his post ever since, with the exception of a couple of months last year, when he visited Canada. The duties of the High Commissioner are very important, and sometimes pretty onerous. I know that he has had a great deal to do during the past three years by reason of matters connected with the war, and I agree entirely that his duties as overseas minister are also important and sufficiently onerous of themselves. I realize that the arrangement which has been going on for some months is not one that could be made permanent, but I hope my hon. friend will give us till after the session to consider what may be the future disposition, and to endeavour to effect some arrangement which will be satisfactory, even to his critical judgment.


George Perry Graham: That is enlightening so far. It would appear that the Prime Minister has in his mind a change of some kind in connection with the High Commissioner-ship at London. I am not going to argue whether it ought or ought not to be made. To be frank, it has been rumoured that he was going to insist on the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) accepting that high position.
As the Prime Minister has intimated that something is going to be done in this respect after the close of the session, now would be a good time for him to take the committee into his confidence and tell us whether he is going to appoint the Minis- ' ter of Public Works as High Commissioner for Canada in London.


Robert Laird Borden: I am afraid that my hon. friend's curiosity is quite too ex-

cessive. I really have nothing to take the committee into my confidence about just at present. I may say in reply to the member for Welland (Mr. German) that I see a good deal of force in his observation and that after the session is over 1 -will give my most careful 'and attentive consideration to what he has urged.
Miscellaneous-Amount required to meet expenses of the Technical Board appointed to consider questions relating: to the level of the Lake of the Woods, $8,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Has that work been finished?


John Douglas Hazen: I think that the work has been finished; I am surprised that the amount is so reasonable. Hon. gentlemen will remember that the International Waterways Commission had referred to them a question with regard to the level of the lake of the Woods, affecting interests in Manitoba and Ontario and in the United States. It was necessary for that International Commission to arrive at what would ibe a proper minimum and a proper maximum level for the lake of the Woods, taking the season throughout. In order to decide this, they had to consider questions affecting navigation, power, fisheries. and many other matters. If the level of the lake were raised to a certain height, some land would be flooded, and there was a question as to what damages should be paid. Moreover, if the lake were raised to a certain level, certain advantages would result to people upon the United States side of the lake, while certain interests there would be injured; the question was how to adjust satisfactorily these various conditions resulting from the raising of the level. An immense amount of information was scattered among the departments in Ottawa-the Interior Department, the Department of Marine, the Public Works Department, and others-and in order to get that information consolidated and in such form as to be of use for the Canadian Commissioners, it was found necessary to appoint a Technical Board for that purpose. I was assigned by counc'l the duty of organizing the board and of acting as chairman. As a matter of fact, I was chairman only in the sense of organizing and consulting. The real chairman of the board, the one who had the scientific and technical knowledge enabling him to do the work far better than I could, was Mr. W. J. Stewart, Director of Hydrographic Survey. We had on that board also representatives of the Public Works Department -Mr. Cballies and Mr. Chapleau-together

with representatives of the other departments in which there was information of this kind. A great many meetings of this committee were held. It was found necessary to employ surveyors and others in order to get the necessary information together and be able to advise the Canadian members of the International Waterways Commission.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Outside of the surveyors, the personnel of the commission consisted of men who were at that time civil servants?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes; they got no extra pay for their .services. Certain clerical assistance, however, had to be provided; travelling expenses had to be paid, and certain surveyors and engineers had to be employed to take observations from time to time This item is for the purpose of covering that expense. I have been informed by members of the International Waterways Commission that the information thus obtained was invaluable-indeed, was indispensable; that without it, it would have been impossible to get along at all. The result has been that the International Waterways Commission has been able to come to an arrangement with regard to the many diversified interests that were affected-an arrangement that will work out satisfactorily and will be acceptable to the people of both countries.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The result of the work of the commission was satisfactory to the United States Commissioners?


John Douglas Hazen: The commissioners of both countries agreed to it, yes.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: And they have fixed the level?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Without land damages?


John Douglas Hazen: They made some provision with regard to land damages, and with regard also to the water-powers on the lake and on the Winnipeg river, which is entirely, I think, in Manitoba. My understanding is that both the Canadian and the United States sections of the International Waterways Commission have been able to agree upon a finding that is mutually satisfactory.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: But this item does not include any provision for land damages?


John Douglas Hazen: No. There may not be any land damages for a long time to come; indeed, there may never be any.


Robert Laird Borden: The report has not yet been completed, but pending its completion the :hon. gentleman will remember that I read a summary of the results of the investigation not long ago. The report is being printed and will be distributed, but it is pretty voluminous and there will be some delay.


Mr. MURPHY:: Has the Commission to which this item relates concluded its work?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think there will be anything more for the Commission to do. Its functions were to gather this information foT the use of the Canadian section of the Commission. That having been done, and an understanding having been arrived at, I do not think there will be anything further.
Special allowance to the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada to cover travelling and other expenses in connection with his services while acting as Deputy to His Excellency the Governor General, $2,500.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Why is this item reduced by onedialf, to $2,500?


Robert Laird Borden: We might pass the item and I will find out what the reason i.s. If there is any mistake it can be corrected in the supplementary estimates.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What are the travelling expenses in connection with this Item?


Robert Laird Borden: The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court acts as Deputy Governor when the Governor General is absent, and there has always been an allowance for travelling and other expenses in that connection.
Expenses under the Naturalization Acts,
$11,000. [DOT]


Mr. McKENZIE:: This item stood for information which the Minister of Justice was to get for the committee.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps the item might pass, and if my hon. friend will give me a little memorandum of the information required I will have it prepared.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: A question arose as to the amounts paid to the officers of the different courts for signing orders and so forth. In our province there is no fee for signing an order of this kind, and when this item was up before a question was asked as to what really was the purpose for which this money was to be voted. No explanation, was given at the time.
Item stands.
265	-
Mines and Geological Survey-Investigation of ore and other economic deposits, structural material, expenses of Fuel and Ore Dressing Plant, collection of mining and metallurgical statistics, $71,620.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have had occasion to consult some of the geological survey reports of late, and I find that the translation is certainly of a high order. I understand that the translation is under the direction of Mr. Sauvalle, an old journalist who sat in the press gallery here for many years. I want to pay tribute to his work as translator of the geological survey reports. The matter is very difficult and technical to translate, and the translation is certainly done in a most commendable way. I understand that Mr. Sauvalle has been ill through the winter, and I trust that the department will take that into consideration and see that Mr. Sauvalle gets a good rest, because I am sure it would be difficult to find in the whole Dominion a man capable of replacing Mr. Sauvalle in the very important post of translator of such technical matter as the geological survey reports.


Robert Laird Borden: My attention had not been directed to this particular work, but I know that Mr. Sauvalle is a very capable man.


Charles Murphy: Would the minister explain how and where this money is spent?


Robert Laird Borden: I am afraid I am not able to give my hon. friend precise particulars with regard to it. I do know, however, that investigations are made along a great many lines by the appointed officers of the department, and occasionally they come to my attention in a more or less casual way.


Charles Murphy: Perhaps the Prime Minister would secure information for the committee as to how much money is spent at Ottawa and outside in connection with this item?


Robert Laird Borden: Certainly.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I wanted to ask the same question. I can understand the item "collection of mining and metallurgical statistics,'' but I cannot understand what is being done under the heading of "Investigation of ore and other economic deposits, structural material, expenses of fuel and ore dressing plant," and I should like to see the expenditure under these three, heads,-separate, if possible. I know some-

thing about the mining busi-
9 p.m. ness, and I do not see what good is being done by this expenditure.


John Douglas Hazen: Certain investigations have been going on in connection with peat deposits, asphalt, and so forth.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I thought it had reference to peat. We have been carrying on investigations along that line for a number of years, and, to my certain knowledge, nothing has come of it. As for the men that lay down our asphalt, they are perfectly capable of investigating for themselves. Nothing whatever has come of these investigations so far as I know.


Mr. PROULX:: Is the department still
making experiments with regard to peat?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know.


Robert Laird Borden: I think they do work of this character. Where there is a well-founded rumour of the discovery of an important mineral, sometimes a rare mineral, like molybdenite, the Geological Survey makes, investigation and assists in procuring information which might be useful to show whether the deposit would be capable of commercial development. That is one thing which occurs to me at the moment. I am not sure about structural material. The collection of mining and metallurgical statistics is, of course, perfectly obvious.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I quite understand the
last item, but where there is a discovery of any valuable ore the commercial interests of the country will very soon find out whether it could be worked on a paying basis or not. The mining men do not depend on any one else to tell them wheiner it is worth their while to work it or not. They see for themselves.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think my hon. friend has the right idea. I know something about this matter in my own province, and I can tell him that work of that character done by the Geological Survey has been worth a great deal to the people of the province. For example, in the determination of faults. In a particular district a fault will be in a particular direction and of a certain distance; in an adjoining district, under different geological conditions, the fault may be different-the push may be in a very different direction and of a different length. I am quite sure the Geological Sur-

vey of Canada in investigating that, which is only one, I dare say, of a score of features in which they have been of assistance, has rendered important service to those who come with a view to possible development. It is very important to a man who is operating a gold mine, for instance, if he strikes a fault, to know that the faults in that particular district mean a displacement for a certain, distance in a certain direction.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I quite understand that, but the mining men themselves employ geologists to find out the nature of the faults, and where to test for them.


Robert Laird Borden: In Nova Scotia it has been done to a very great extent by the Geological Survey, and the service which can be given by general survey of the whole province and an examination of the differences between, different districts is one that would hardly be rendered by private enterprise.


Charles Murphy: My right hon. friend
mentioned the possibility that some of this money was expended in connection with the development of properties /in which molybdenite, for instance, had been discovered.


Robert Laird Borden: In connection
with their examination, not in connection with their development.


Charles Murphy: The discovery of molybdenite just north of the city of Ottawa has been rumoured. I understand the greater part of the output from that district is sold to the Imperial Munitions Board, and presumably sent out of the country. I would iask my right hon. friend if the Government has taken any action with reference to regulating the export of this mineral.


Robert Laird Borden: In all these matters, where the mineral is of importance for war purposes, we act in thorough co-operation with the Imperial Munitions Board. I do not know what may have been done in the particular instance to which my hon. friend refers, but we have tried to act in absolute co-operation with the Imperial Munitions Board, in order that they may be supplied with all mineral necessary for their purposes.
Mines and Geological Survey, Geological Survey Branch-For explorations, surveys and investigations, wages of explorers, draughtsmen and others, $150,000.
For publication of English and French editions of reports, maps, illustrations, etc., $65,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 
Robert Laird Borden: I really could not give my hon. friend any information on that point. I am not very familiar with the administration of the department, and the acting minister is not here at the moment.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is not the carrying on of the investigations provided for under the first item?


Robert Laird Borden: I could not tell my hon. friend. If the item is allowed to stand, we will get the information for him.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I think it ought to be struck out. It should be covered by the item above-"investigation of ore and other economic deposits, etc." There are two large items.


Robert Laird Borden: We would hardly agree to have it struck out. Let it stand.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: There is no use in letting it stand as it will simply go through at some other time. I move that it be struck out.


Mr. DEVLIN:: A careful study ought to be made of a region within close proximity to Ottawa known as the Gatineau region. Most members of this House are familiar with it. There are large mineral deposits in that region. Up to date the most productive finds have been in mica. It is perhaps the greatest mica-producing country in the world for its size. I would like to see some of this money, since it is going to be spent, directed towards mineral researches in the Gatineau region.


William Manley German: What benefit does the country derive from the expenditure of $134,620 for the Mines branch and $430,020 for the geological survey? I think that the people would be very much interested in knowing what financial benefit the country derives from this expenditure. These services get information, it is true, but that information is of no financial benefit to the country. It may enable certain interests to go in and take possession of the land. The Government do not sell the land and they have no control over it. They may acquire some information which they give to private interests and by means of which the private interests derive some advantage, but how does any advantage come to the country? As stated by my hon. friend from North Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt), private interests find these things out themselves. I never could understand wherein the country was deriving any financial benefit commensurate with the very considerable expenditure that is being made from year to year on these surveys and explorations.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Has any of this money been expended towards finding minerals in the Ungava region? There was a report some time ago that diamonds had been found there. There were reports that there were other mineral deposits.


Robert Laird Borden: I really am not in a position to answer my hon. friend about that.
Public works chargeable to capital-Ottawa Parliament Building, restoration-The plans for the said building and the method to be adopted for securing the reconstruction thereof to be subject to the approval of the Joint Committee appointed by the Prime Minister and the leader of the Opposition, $2,000,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Would the Minister of
Public Works (Mr. Rogers) please give us a little information about what is being done up there? They do not allow us to go and investigate for ourselves. What room will we have?


Robert Rogers: We are going to have a
very largely increased space, very nearly
4182

a hundred per cent more. Members will have more room. The work upon the building is getting on very satisfactorily, as I am sure hon. members will see if they will take the trouble-and I hope they will-to go up and view the work that is being done. The building is up three stories aibove .ground and there is a story and a half to go on top of that. We expect the roof to be on this fall. We shall be able to carry on the work during the winter months.
' Mr. NESBITT: Will there be plenty of accommodation for the members in the so-called office rooms?


Robert Rogers: Yes, plenty.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I went to see it the other day but they would not allow me in.


Robert Rogers: They did not know you. You have to get a ticket. I had the same experience myself not long ago.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: When is it expected the
building will be completed?


Robert Rogers: The contract has to be
through by next December and I think it will be completed in the contract time.


George Perry Graham: There was a rumour in the House the other day that work had partially ceased on the construction of the building. Is there any truth in that?


Robert Rogers: No.


George Perry Graham: That a large number of men had been laid off.


Robert Rogers: There was some delay for want of steel; that was all.


George Perry Graham: Is there any trouble in getting steel now?


Robert Rogers: Yes, we have had a little trouble in getting steel, but it is coming forward now.


George Perry Graham: Where do you get the
steel?	.


Robert Rogers: Most of it from the Dominion Bridge Company.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How much has been spent so far?


Robert Rogers: I have not the exact amount, but I am glad to be able to say that they are keeping well within the estimate laid down by the architect.


George Perry Graham: I have been through the building. I happened to be a member of a committee in connection with the commemoration of the anniversary of Confeder-

ation, and, being on that committee, I suppose, secured me a safe passage into and out of the building. I was very much interested in the work being carried on. I think the accommodation, judging from the general plan of the building, will be highly satisfactory to the members of both Houses when they come to see it in the actual construction. For myself, I never could tell anything about an architect's plan or an engineer's drawing. To me, they bring no more information than a map brings me-[DOT] none at all. I have to have some other means of getting the locations and situations into my mind. But when one goes in the main entrance and looks east and west, it gives him some idea of the size of the structure. As far as I could see. I think it is a wonderfully convenient edifice for the purpose for which it is being erected. I was impressed with the stone that was being cut and prepared for the erection of the building. Where is that stone secured?


Robert Rogers: It is the same stone that all the buildings have been erected from. It is from the Nepean quarry about six miles out. It is from the same quarry that the original building was erected, and it is the same stone that was used in the construction of the Customs building.


George Perry Graham: I suppose the minister is making sure that we shall have a proper system of ventilation.


Robert Rogers: We hope we are.


George Perry Graham: While the appearance
of the old buildings was magnificent, the ventilation was not just what it ought to have been. I am inclined to think that the lack of proper ventilation has brought ill-health to- more members of the Commons than the real hard work of the session. Any building erected to-day that does not provide for proper heating, with an ample supply of fresh air, is not a success, particularly when it is to house any large number of people.


Robert Rogers: The committee in charge of the work have given great attention to the ventilation, and every effort is being made to make it as perfect as possible. The architect is satisfied that he has a plan that will be entirely satisfactory, and he convinced the committee that he was on the right track.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Will the seating in -the
new chamber be on the -same plan as the old one?


Robert Rogers: The Speaker's chair, as
the plan is now laid out, may be either in the centre or at the end. My own opinion is that it should be at the end, and I think that hon. members who inspect the proposed chamber, which is partially constructed, will agree with me.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: There will be seating
capacity for only two parties as at present?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Does the minister think
that wise? There are rumours of a union Government, of a coalition Government, and of different parties. For instance, we hear of a Sifton party in the West, and of other parties. If the seats are arranged as before, there may not be proper seating capacity for all these different parties.


Robert Rogers: So far as I understand
conditions in Canada, there are only two parties. Of course this building will not be completed for a year and a half, and probably conditions will change. You know we are getting closer all the time to the millennium, and possibly there will be only one party by the time we get into the new [DOT]building.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: Has the minister or the committee considered the removal of the desks and the adoption of the ground floor plan of the British House of Commons? I believe that our debates are greatly lengthened by having desks in the chamber. In England no newspapers are allowed, and no writings except such as a member can take on his knee or on his hat, and the result is that the speeches are much more concise. If the desks were abolished you would have a more compact chamber, shorter debates, and speeches more to the point.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I beg to differ with my hon. friend. Not that I care for desks, but I do not think they have the slightest influence in relation to the length of speeches. If you read the history of parliamentary eloquence in England you will find that at the beginning of last century, with Pitt amk Burke and Sheridan, the speeches were long and lasted sometimes for two of three days. If you read the debate on the famous case of Warren Hastings, not the trial but the debate, in which some of the finest addresses were delivered, you will see the debates were very long. According to Lord Curzon, who lectured on the subject of parliamentary eloquence at one of the English universities, it was only in the last
part of the nineteenth century that the speeches in the House of Commons became more matter-of-fact, and that the practice of making long speeches died out. To-day Asquith, Balfour, Lloyd George and all the leaders-there are no Sirs amongst' them, all the leaders of parliamentary eloquence-they are very short and pithy.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: If I have the honour to sit in the next House, I will guarantee that the desk will not lengthen my speeches, and I will suggest to my hon. friend (Mr. Guthrie) that he should move over to one of these seats beside me to-morrow and leave the desk which is now in front of him.
I should like to see the desks remain.
At the close of the last session, the minister told us it would not be necessary to take down the walls of the old building. Would the minister tell us why they were taken down?


Robert Rogers: The walls were in such a very, very poor condition that it would be absolutely out of the question to attempt to construct a new building such as this on them. The brick was separated from the mortar, or the filling, and the stone was separated from that again, and they were standing in three different parts. It would be ridiculous to attempt to utilize those walls.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The hon. minister told us the walls would not co.me down.


Robert Rogers: Yes. The first report of the architect was that it would not be necessary to take them down. But when they opened them to see whether they were sound 'or not they decided that they must come down. We acted entirely on the advice of Messrs. Pearson, Marchand and Ewart. They were all of one opinion, and the minister has to follow the united opinion of the architects in such a matter. In fact, the condition of the walls was so bad that they did not even consult me. I was not aware of the fact that they woto going to take them down until most of them were down. The necessity was so apparent to them that they did not think it necessary to consult the department. In reply to the question by the hon. gentleman from South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) in regard to the seats, I may say that this is .a very important matter, and one that concerns the committee very much, because we have no opinion of our own to advance as to which would be the best plan. There is sure to he difference of opinion between the members of the House, but let me say

[DOT]that it will not be necessary to -arrive at a decision in regard to the matter of arranging the seats for some months yet. We shall probably have another session before [DOT]this matter will have to be decided, and then the members of this House will have an opportunity, and, if I have charge of affairs, they will have an invitation, to come and give the matter careful consideration, because the seating of the Chamber is one which interests every individual member of the House, and all should have their say. That matter will not be settled till, probably, this time next year.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: When will the next session be called? Is the minister referring to the session after the general election?


Robert Rogers: We will have to have a session in January or February.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: This coming January?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


George Perry Graham: It might be well to remember that the ministers of the Crown in the Old Land are represented in Parliament when details have to be explained, minor details particularly, by under secretaries, and the ministers can retire to their offices, go on with their work and attend 'to their correspondence. With us, if an item is being discussed in the House in which a minister or his department is at all interested, the minister must of necessity be in the House. I submit that both the members of the Government in Canada and the members of the House are in a somewhat different position from that occupied by a majority of the members in the British Parliament. The ministers of the Crown in Canada not only have their public duties jhere, but moist of them have a lot of correspondence outside of that as well. The unembers are in the same position. I suppose there is not a man in this House who Tias not a business he is trying to look after, iin a degree at least; and if he has a desk in the Chamber, a lot of his correspondence Is signed while he is sitting here, taking part-spasmodically it may be, but yet taking part-in the business of the House. If we were to have no desks in this House, the man who is actively engaged in business, as nearly every member of this House is, would have to absent himself from the House a good deal more than he does, looking after his correspondence. Speaking for myself, I think I do twenty-five per cent of my outside business while I am in the House. I think nothing of importance escapes me. But I would be in 
the House much less if I had no desk before me on which I could attend to these little matters when I have a moment or two in the House, t'o get them off my hands. These things will have to be considered. The position of members of Parliament in Canada, including the members of the Government, is not identical with the position of the majority of the members in the British Parliament.


William Manley German: Would the hon. gentleman be good enough to satisfy the curiosity of a great many people as to why the outside decorations of the new building have not been in keeping with the old buildings that are standing there. The hon. minister knows that round the windows and doors there is a red stone, which gives a very rich and beautiful apearance. The new building is a dead white, without any relief whatever. A great many people say they would like to see it covered with something that would relieve the monotony of that dead whiteness. I should like to know why the difference exists, as between the old building and the new. I understand the red stone has been purchased. Why was it not put in? It would have made a more elegant appearance.


Robert Rogers: That is a matter to which we have given a great deal of attention, .and we had a great deal of difficulty in deciding. I may say that I, and a few more, have held the same idea as my hon. friend, but we were overruled by every architect, and we finally called in His Royal Highness, who was very strongly against us, and ruled with the architects that the matter of a red stone around the window was not desirable or suitable, or not an improvement, but rather a detriment to the building; and it was finally decided, after many meetings, that we should take the stone that is being used to-day for reasons I have given.


George Perry Graham: Where do we get the white stone?


Robert Rogers: I do not know. I anj. not sure which stone is being used around the windows. It is perhaps Ohio sandstone.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is it finally decided
what stone shall be used for the interior decoration? .


Robert Rogers: 
George Perry Graham: Will there he any residences provided for in the building?


Robert Rogers: We 'have not reached that point yet. The construction of the building is such that we could very easily place a 'residence at each end.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Cut them out.


Robert Rogers: That has not been decided. We are economizing as much as we can during war time, but the buildings are always open to extension in that way.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Does the hon. gentleman mean residence for 'the Speaker?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What has been decided regarding the library? There was a plan extending the library out to the covered walk? Has 'anything been changed in connection with that library?


Robert Rogers: No, I do not know that there has been any change. There was a plan prepared, not for an extension of the library, but of the stack room, to 'be built *at the back of the present library at an expenditure of $250,000. We decided that, for the present at all events, we would not go on with that expenditure; that we would use the vacant space in the basement of the main building as stack rooms for the library. We tried to economize in 'that way, saving the estimated cost of $250,000 *for the library extension.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What about the power
house?


Robert Rogers: I do not think that we are going on with it on the far side; there was some objection to putting it near Nepean point. That was decided on some time ago.
St. John harbour improvements... $1,000,000 Quebec harbour - dry dock at
Lauzon		1,000,000
Quebec harbour-River St. Charles
-improvements to navigation... 700,000 Toronto harbour-improvements.... 1,000,000 Port Arthur and Fort Williamharbour and river improvements 750,000 Victoria harbour-improvements ...	1,000,000


Robert Rogers: This is an item about
which many members may like to say
something. There will he an item in the supplementary estimates upon which hon. members may discuss anything which would arise under this item.


George Perry Graham: Is the work at Courtenay bay still going on?


Robert Rogers: Yes.	.


George Perry Graham: Who are the contractors?


Robert Rogers: We have not any just
now. The original contractors did not succeed ; their contract has been closed, and specifications are now being prepared with a view to calling tenders immediately to finish the work. We have built several docks in West St. John; we are preparing to build dock 17 this year. We are calling for tenders also for an extension of the Negro Point breakwater. This has been recommended by all the engineers as a very necessary and desirable work in connection with the improvement of the harbour of St. John. Trouble has been experienced with the high tide and with the sea coming in at a terriffic pace; it has been found necessary, therefore, to extend the breakwater from Negro Point to the mainland. St. John harbour will then be improved in such manner as to make it almost as perfect a harbour as can be found anywhere. That is the judgment of the engineers.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Three of these items are revotes. Is it the minister's intention to go on with all these improvements this
year?


Robert Rogers: We have a good deal of
work to do at St. John harbour. The business there has grown more rapidly than the business at any other harbour in Canada Last year we suffered a great deal through lack of the necessary accommodation for the trade that was pressing itself upon St. John harbour, and it is necessary that certain improvements there be carried out in order to meet requirements. At Quebec harbour we are building a large dry dock which will he completed some time this autumn. There is pressing need for it; we are frequently urged by the Admiralty to hurry it up as fast as we can. Dry docks are at a premium just now, 'because all ships find their way into dry docks from time to time for purposes of repairs. That work will have to go on to completion. As to the Quebec harbour and River St. Charles improvements, we are trying to have that work closed down for the time being; we think we can get on without spending much

more money there at present. The work at Toronto harbour is under contract; it is getting on very well. Probably the total amount will not be expended, but a reasonable amount will be required.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: There is no rush for that.


Robert Rogers: We are not rushing it; we are proceeding as quietly as we possibly can. The Port Arthur and Fort William harbour improvements are very important works; there is always a demand for additional work there. Last year two or three of the grain growers organizations of Western Canada established large terminal elevators at these places, entailing a considerable cost upon the Government for the providing of the necessary dredging and breakwaters in front of the elevators. The same applies at Victoria harbour; we have done a great deal of work there. The work is practically completed; this amount will be required to finish it and to pay the balance of the contract price. We have two splendid docks there. The Munitions Board are asking us to rush immediately the erection of a large shed on one of these docks, to be used in connection with the assembling of machinery for the ships that they are constructing at that point. We are hurrying the completion of this shed as fast as we can in order that the Munitions Board may have the accommodation that they are asking for. We are allowing them the use of our docks for the very important work that they are carrying on in the construction of ships.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Will that >shed be useful after the war?


Robert Rogers: Oh, yes; it will be used for storage, and that sort of thing.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is the Victoria harbour not under a commission?


Robert Rogers: You are thinking of Vancouver.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Are fees charged in that harbour?


Robert Rogers: Not yet.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: When the war broke out we in Nova Scotia were willing to give up all our public works. We had large votes in tile estimates, and even before the war began, on account of the fall in the revenue, we were advised that we should cease pressing for improvements that had been promised, or from pressing for the expenditure of money that had already been voted. We were told by the minister that large ex-
penditures had to be dropped; that practically all public expenditures that were not absolutely necessary were to cease. Accordingly, we have not been pressing the minister for any expenditure, although some of these works are very necessary. It has been brought to the notice of the House several times that the fisheries of Canada are becoming more important every day; that fish as a food commodity is of the highest importance. In order to catch fish, ample facilities must be provided in the way of harbours, wharves and breakwaters. Facilities of that kind are very much needed in the part of the country from which I come. There was a very substantial item in the estimates of 1910 and 1911 fo the opening of a harbour at Ashby Bay in the county of Victoria. The question of the opening of that harbour was before this House and the Government for a good many years, and at last they reached the conclusion that the harbour should be opened. It would not involve the expenditure of a great deal of money, and once it was opened it would be of the greatest importance to the fisheries and the trade of the country generally. The vote was dropped some years after this Government came into power. I did not press the matter very much then, by reason of the fact that the war had broken out, and there was a fall in revenue and great need for economy. But now, the Minister of Public Works is spending large amounts of money on St. John harbour, for instance, which is an old harbour which they have got along very well with for a great many years, and I venture to think they could get along fairly well with it- as it is now. Although a layman, so far as the engineering business is concerned, I wish to warn the minister that he may find he has made a very grave mistake if he expects to make a good harbour at St. John by building a breakwater across the harbour. We had a .trial of that sort of thing as a protection to the entrance through the Grand Narrows in the Bras d Or lakes. A breakwater was built with the expectation of diverting the current and getting calm water where a very rapid current used to run. A large amount of money was expended, hut the result was simply to make the thing worse than it was before. I -am simply warning the minister that by the building of this breakwater at St. John, the currents he disturbs may make the water more treacherous than before. I think the item providing for the expenditure of this large amount of money on an old harbour could very well stand over, and preference should -be given to

such places as I 'have mentioned, where there is crying need for improvements that could be made at comparatively small cost. If the minister would undertake this work, the fishermen, not only of my county hut of the whole coast of Nova Scotia and in parts of New Brunswick, where they go for mackerel, cod and other fish, would be given a shelter that would enable them to carry on their wo-rk very much more conveniently and at a greater profit than at present.
Now that the minister is starting out to spend money, I must, in justice to that part of the country -which I represent, emphasize as strongly as I can the necessity of restoring those votes in the estimates of 1910, 1911 and 1912, providing for substantial improvements of the character I have mentioned and going on with the work.


Robert Rogers: If my hon. friend, who says that I am undertaking new work, will only look at the item he will see that there is a reduction in it of over $2,500,000, which is an evidence that we are adhering to our policy of economy during war time, even in such important matters as the great harbours of this country. The .harbours enumerated here are our national harbours. Before the outbreak of the war large contracts had been let for the purpose of improving the harbours to meet the trade requirements of the country, and the amounts here asked for are simply to carry out the contracts that were then entered into. I quite appreciate the importance of harbours such as my hon. friend has mentioned, and no one will be more pleased than I when conditions will allow me to restore .any vote that is required 10 p.m. in the interests of the fishing industry of Nova Scotia, or any other place. There was great need for additional accommodation at the harbour of St. John last winter. It is-our great winter port, and the traffic has greatly increased on account of the war. New docks are urgently required. Only a few months ago several ships had to lay off the harbour awaiting their turn to dock, so great was the need for additional dockage. We hope, with the money we are here asking for, to be able to complete the docks, now under way, in order to relieve the congested condition that has existed at the port of St. John for some time. In regard to the harbour of Victoria, the contract had been let and there was a pressing need for the completion of the work .at the earliest possible date. I can assure my hon. friend that when the opportunity presents itself t'he
needs of that part of the country from which he comes will not be overlooked.


John Douglas Hazen: I might point out that the goods that were exported through St. John during the last winter season amounted in value to nearly $200,000,000. There has been an enormous development in the business of that port during the last two years. New wharves have been erected, but they are not yet capable of handling the tremendous business that is offering every winter. The expectation is that this winter the exports through {hat port will be even larger than last year, when they far exceeded the exports through the port of Boston. I want the committee to understand that the money that has been spent on these new wharves at St. John is not lost to the country. These wharves are revenue producers and when they have been completed, they are handed over to the administration of the Marine and Fisheries Department. Last year we collected at the port of St. John a revenue of something over $100,000 in round figures, and that figure will be largely increased during the present winter, and will go a long way, at 3J per cent, towards paying the. interest on the money that these wharves cost. It is absolutely necessary fox the protection of these wharves that the breakwater that was built many years ago and extends from Negro Point to Partridge island, should be extended the whole way across. Otherwise the wharves would be in danger of being destroyed. I would be the last to urge the Minister of Public Works to spend the public moneys at the present time unless It was for an absolutely necessary purpose, and this particular work, as I have pointed out, is absolutely necessary in order to protect the trade of the country and to protect the investment which the country now has in the wharves which have been erected there of late years, and which are substantial revenue producers for the public exchequer. Tenders for this work had been asked for before the war broke out-before there was any idea that war would be declared. ,
Tenders were received after the outbreak of the war, buit in view of the fact that it was felt that economy .should be exercised, the deposits made by the tenderers were returned to them, and it was decided not to proceed with the work. The action of the Public Works Department in proceeding with the work now is because of the fact that it is necessary in order to protect the country's property which was constructed at an expenditure of a good


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I quite understand
that the hon. member from St. John, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, should stand up for his county and for his port. No one appreciates the enterprising people of St. John more than I do. At the same time, there is no use concealing the fact that the harbour of St. John is taxed beyond what God and nature ever intended it to be.


John Douglas Hazen: Not by any means.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Practically speaking,
it is not a harbour at all. It is just a sort of bay, into which the magnificent St. John river rushes, and where there is continually a battle royal between the tides of the Bay of Fundy and the rushing waters of the St. John river. That is the kind of harbour my hon. friend is trying to tame into a mill-dam for vessels to get into. We can have harbours anywhere where there is an island off the coast, if we get people generous enough to build any sort of structure between the mainland and the island, and then some extension beyond the island, but it is costing the Country too much, to satisfy the ambition of my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. At the sartie time, I think it would be better to give more attention to places where there are harbours. I am sorry the magnificent harbour of Halifax seems to be forgotten to-night. There is also the magnificent harbour of Sydney and North Sydney, which nature intended as a harbour, hut it is neglected. No attempt is made to develop a number of places where there are proper harbours, but the minister asks to spend millions of dollars to fight the tides of the Bay of Fundy and the rushing torrents of the river St. John,

in order to make a harbour to please my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.


John Douglas Hazen: I am very much surprised that my hon. friend, usually a well-informed man, is so much at fault regarding the geography of the Maritime Provinces, and I extend to him an invitation to come to St. John this summer, when I am at home and may have the pleasure of entertaining him. I am sure when he looks over our harbour and its possibilities, that he will-I will not say apologize,-but he will admit he was wrongly informed and making a mistake in crying down one of the great harbours of Canada. I think it is a great pity that a Nova Scotian should cry down the harbour of St. John, and I think it is a great pity that a New Brunswicker should decry the harbour of Halifax, I do not think that is the way to promote the interests of the Maritime Provinces. I think we should give credit to one another, and help one another, having more of a feeling of patriotism for our own province ratner than seek to spread disunion and create discord in reflecting upon the merits of the different localities. My hon. friend is a bit of a joker, I know, and says things in a facetious way; but it is really absurd to speak as the hon. gentleman has spoken of the port which *has been selected as the terminus of the Canadian Pacific railway on the Atlantic coast and from which goods to the enormous value of nearly $200,000,000 were shipped last -winter. The fact I have just mentioned carries with it the refutation of what my hon. friend has said in regard to the merits of the port. I think the port of St. John has enormous possibilities, not only because of its geographical position, but because of the enterprise of the people and because of the fact that the Canadian Pacific railway, the greatest of Canadian carrying companies, has made it its terminus on the' Atlantic coast, which will lead to its constant development year by year, and to an enormous increase in the traffic which will pass through it. So far as results are concerned, St. John is to-day, without question, the greatest port on the Atlantic coast.


George Perry Graham: We have been asking the farmers all through the West and all through Canada to produce more in order that the Allies may be fed. One of the greatest requisites to production on the farm or anywhere is the expedition and cheapness with which those products can be shipped to the market. I notice there is nothing in these items for elevator accom-

modation at Quebec, Saint John, and Halifax.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman will
remember that is in the railway estimates.


George Perry Graham: I	remember the
railway estimates. An elevator system should be a part of the development of those harbours. The elevator system which is being constructed by the Railway Deparxment is part of the Government railway system, as the Halifax elevator is part of the Government railway system- We are not making a concentrated effort in the development of our harbours to make them in uniformity and have them completed harbours when we are through. At the head of the Great Lakes there are a large number of elevators- On this side of the Lakes there are a large number of elevators. We have spent millions of dollars in Canada to get through lines of transportation by land. Without elevator accommodation at Quebec, Saint John, and Halifax, a portion of the year when those railway facilities could be used -and navigation its closed is of no avail to- us at all. At the present time, there is no means of rushing by rail the products of the West and having them stored at Quebec, say, during the winter, awaiting navigation-


John Douglas Hazen: There is a million-bushel
elevator at Quebec now.


George Perry Graham: But that is a smallsized elevator for the purpose required. It is only the size of the elevator at the head of the Welland canal.
Mr- COCHRANE: That is a two-million-bushel elevator.


George Perry Graham: It started out as one of 500,000 bushels. The foundations were provided so that enlargement could be made, which has since been done. With a two-million-bushel elevator at the head of the Welland canal, a one-inillion-bushel elevator at Quebec is of minor importance. In order to encourage the farmer in the West to produce we have to complete our transportation facilities to the seaboard, otherwise there is no use building railways to the seaboard, and there is no use urging the farmer to produce because he cannot get his product to the seaboard. Then you will tell me that there is no tonnage to take it '.across when we get it there. I think the honourable member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards), a year ago, brought up the matter, which I consider of
very great importance. At that time, if the Government had taken some means of providing against what was inevitable, the loss of tonnage, and had gone on with the erection of elevators, we should have been in a magnificent position to encourage the farmers of the West to produce, because we not only could have taken their grain to the seaboard but we would have had elevators to handle it and a certain number of ships to carry it across. My honourable friend the Minister of the Naval Service (Mr. Hazen) informed us to-day that the shipyards of Canada were largely engaged in building ships of various capacities for the Imperial Government. It is our duty to do that but we ought not to leave the other undone. I believe, as much as I believe anything, that the whole country would have been well served, and perhaps better served, if we had set the shipbuilding capacity of Canada to work constructing ships a year or two ago for Canada herself, either through private or Government enterprise; because at that time when the submarine menace was becoming very serious we might have looked sufficiently far ahead to realize that one of the difficulties of our Allies would be to get their food supply, through lack of tonnage. Even at this moment, because we do not know when the war is going to cease, it would not be out of place for the Dominion Government to utilize certain of the shipbuild- -ing establishments for the construction of vessels for ourselves to carry the products of the country overseas. The United States is doing a good deal in this way but she is not doing it for us; she is doing is for herself and the Allies. The links in our transportation system are altogether lacking when we have not elevator facilities at the seaboard and when we do not seem to be making any provision to secure tonnage to carry our products overseas.


Robert Rogers: In so far as giving consideration to the carriage of the products of the farmers is concerned, I think the Government can reasonably claim that they have taken a very great interest in matters of that kind. With respect to the question of elevators, we have built for the producers of western Canada large interior elevators which are of great benefit. We have also established a Government terminal elevator at Fort William and we have established practical control of all the elevators at that terminal, which control is sufficient to regulate all the conditions incident to the transport of our grain through the elevators at that point. My hon. friend quite

appreciates, I am sure, that so far as the producer of western Canada is concerned, he is almost entirely dependent upon the elevatovr space at Fort William and Port Arthur. The space at the points named is quite sufficient at present to take care of the trade of western Canada. I quite appreciate the importance of additional elevator space at the seaboard, at such points as St. -John and Halifax, but I do not see that any special purpose can be served by additional elevator space at Quebec, for example. Quebec is only a summer port, and any grain stored in an elevator at Quebec in the fall, or at the close of navigation, would have to remain there until navigation opened in the spring. It would be of very little importance in the matter of the placing of grain whether it was at Quebec or at Port Arthur or Fort William. By placing it at Quebec you would probably have the long rail haul which would make it very expensive to the producer, and I do not think it would be a point at which additional elevator space would be particularly necessary. There is no doubt that we should have additional elevator space at St. John but the Canadian Pacific have already a large elevator there and the Government have erected one in connection with the Intercolonial railway. If my hon. friend the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Cochrane) is assured that there is a pressing need for elevator space at a point of that kind, I am sure he will meet the requirements as soon as it. is possible for him to do so.


Mr. ROBB:: For many years the Canadian people have been spending millions of dollars deepening harbours and building docks at different ports, not only on the Great Lakes but on the seaboard, and whenever a harbour has been completed or a splendid dock erected, with possibly great elevators for the storage of grain and sheds for facilitating the handling of the products of the farms, we discover that some privately-owned railway controls the right of way along the docks and this railway, in its selfishness, places all sorts of obstructions against other railways. It would be well that every precaution should be taken to see to it that the nation shall own the right of way and the railway tracks to all harbours in Canada and provide for running arrangements so that privately owned railways shall be able to receive and discharge freight on these docks without being hampered by another privately owned road which would naturally look after its own business. Is the minister making provision for this in the new works that are going on

at these harbours not only on the Great Lakes but on the sea coast?


Robert Rogers: I do not know to what points my hon. friend makes particular reference when he says that privately owned railway companies are in possession of the right of way and. obstruct others from getting access to the harbour, where1 the work has been constructed by the Government. Now that we have a Railway Commission, it has full power and authority to deal with and regulate any conditions such as my hon. friend suggests. If there is any particular point at which the difficulty that he mentions exists, I am sure it will only be necessary to bring it to the attention of the Railway Commission. If the Railway Commission has not sufficient power to regulate such a condition, if the complaint is genuine, as I am sure it is or my hon. friend would not have mentioned it, then I can assure him that the Government will be only too glad to take it up and find a remedy in some form or other.


James Alexander Robb: I have no special reference to any particular port or railway. 1 think it is generally admitted that this has been the policy for years, and everybody in the trade knows that a railway is always able to hamper other railways, notwithstanding the efforts of the Railway Commission.


Robert Rogers: Of course they will do that if they can.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Have the works at River St. Charles been resumed?


Robert Rogers: Owing to the policy of economizing as much as possible, a portion of the work under the existing contract is being delayed, but a portion has been resumed; that is the providing of a bridge across the river, which was necessary, and preparation for the erection of a shipbuilding plant under the programme of the Imperial Munitions Board, which awarded contracts for the erection of four ships to parties at Quebec. The board have been in communication with the Department of Public Works for some time with a view to getting a piece of ground which we had expropriated there, for the purpose of establishing a shipbuilding plant.


William Manley German: Representations have
been made to the minister in connection with a public building fur a post office and custom house at Thorold, and I was given to understand there was to be something in the estimates for that purpose. Thorold

is a growing town, with large numbers of extensive factories, and the post office facilities are absolutely inadequate for the public service. It is almost imperative that there should be a public building there for post office and customs purposes. I trust the minister will have something in the supplementary estimates for this and will at least make a beginning this year, even if he does not have money enough to complete the enterprise.


Robert Rogers: I should be very glad to accommodate my hon. friend but, in view of the existing conditions, I am afraid it will he impossible, especially as I have not one single new item in the estimates.


William Manley German: What about the Cardinal building?


Robert Rogers: That is the only one, and it was arranged for previous to the change of policy of the Government. When we come to the next item I hope my hon. friend will give me credit for practising economy in the construction of public buildings. I hope the day is not far distant when we shall be able to accommodate my hon. friend at Thorold.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In the Island of Cape Breton, there are quite a number of telegraph lines owned by the Government, and they are very useful institutions, serving an excellent purpose in many sections where there are no other telegraph lines. I understood it was the intention of the department to change these telegraph offices into telephone offices. Is that so? And have any been converted?


Robert Rogers: It was the desire to make many changes along that line, but they have not been made up to date because we have been keeping down expenses and putting off the work from time to time.
In the Supplementary estimates we are making some extensions in Cape Breton, and I shall be very glad, when the deputy is here, to give any information that is available in the department in reference to the telegraph system of the Maritime Provinces.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In the county of Inverness there is practically a new line running from Margaree through lake Ainslie into Whyeocomagh and on, connecting with the Intercolonial at Orangedale. It is quite a lengthy line and very serviceable indeed. This place called Lake Ainslie is my birthplace, and I am quite familiar with the conditions there. There is a settlement
about ten miles along the east side of this beautiful lake, and I think they have only one office in the ten miles. There has been a good deal of negotiation back and forth in the effort to get another office. There is a place of resort and a fishing place called Trout Brook, where there is a little hotel, and where many people go, and a telegraph office near that point would be a great convenience and would be of great public service. The minister might inquire as to some of his friends who might get the office there; I am not seeking for patronage, but only want to see that this public convenience is put in the most central place in that part of the county, particularly on account of the great number o.f strangers who go there and sometimes desire to communicate with the outside world. The nearest telegraph office would be at Whyeocomagh or the first telegraph office on the other side of this place at three miles down. It is not a matter of very great expense, and I wish the minister would make a note of it and see that something is done.


Robert Rogers: I think I had this matter before me two or three days ago, and on the recommendation of the officers of the department some action was taken-just exactly what it was I have no idea-with a view of meeting the necessity which appears to exist, which my hon. friend describes. I shall be glad to take a note of it, and get the details.
In reference to item 142, "Public Works- Miscellaneous-$936,641.50," hon. gentlemen will find a reduction of eleven or twelve millions, so they will see how full of economy we are, in reducing the expenditure during war time. This item was passed -the other day.
Life saving stations, including rewards for saving life, $125,400.


George Perry Graham: How many of these on the Pacific, and how many on the Atlantic?


John Douglas Hazen: In British Columbia, four; Ontario, ten; New Brunswick, four; Nova Scotia, fifteen; Quebec, one, and Prince Edward Island, five.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Might I renew my humble request that life-saving stations be established around Gaspe?


John Douglas Hazen: I will be glad to make a note of the suggestion.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.

Tuesday, August 7, 1917.