1917-07-30

COUNCIL FOR THE INDIAN TRIBES OF CANADA.

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Mr. PORTER moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 119, to incorporate a Council for the Indian Tribes of Canada.
Air. GRAHAM:: Explain.


Mr. PORTER:: Mr. Speaker, the object of the Bill is to incorporate a friendly society of the various tribes of Indians. A petition has been very largely signed by members of the bands throughout the different provinces asking for incorporation. The objects are numerous, but the principal ones are to promote education and morality and to facilitate the operation of their lands and the investment of their funds.


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.


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On the Orders of the Day:
Air. J. J. HUGHES (Kings, P.E.I.):: I* would like to ask the hon. the Alinister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Cochrane) if the Government have come to a final determination in regard to the widening of the gauge of the Prince Edward Island railway, and, if so, what it is? I would like also to ask a question in regard to the running of the steamers between Pictou and Charlottetown and between Summerside and Point du Chene for the balance of the year after the car ferry is put in operation. I would like to know whether they have come to a final determination in regard to that matter, and, if so, what it is?


Hon. FRANK COCHRANE (Minister of Railways):: The Government has decided not to standardize the Prince Edward Island railway this year. In the first place, it will take a considerable time to make that change. The rails will have to be shifted over, the bridges will have to be widened, the road will have to be straightened and the rolling stock will have to be widened or newly built. Therefore, it is not desirable that we should go on with the work this year. Besides, the war is taking all the finances the Government has. In reference to the other question, it is not decided, but

the Government will endeavour to keep on all the boats that there is business for.


James Joseph Hughes: That there is business for?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


James Joseph Hughes: There is no doubt about that.


Francis Cochrane: Well, I do not know, and I do not think that the hon. gentleman knows either.


James Joseph Hughes: I do.


Francis Cochrane: I hope the hon. gentleman is right. We will keep on all the steamers that are necessary.



FORBIDDEN CIRCULATION IN CANADA.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. FRANK OLIVER:: Is the Government prepared to make a statement to-day in regard to the suppression of " The Fiddlers"?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: I am afraid I will have to ask my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) to allow me to report progress and ask leave to rise again to-morrow. There is no information that I have at the present time.


Frank Oliver: I will have to give notice that if I am not to get an answer to my question within a reasonable time I will have to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing this matter which is one of urgent public importance.



THE TORONTO, HAMILTON AND BUFFALO RAILWAY.

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Mr. W. H. BENNETT moved the third reading of Bill No. 39 respecting the Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo Railway Company-Mr. T. J. Stewart.
Motion agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. W. H. Bennett that tbA Bill do now pass and that the title be as on the Order Paper:
Mr. NESBITT:: There was some trouble about that Bill. Did they get it arranged?


Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG:: The promoter of this Bill (Mr. T. J. Stewart) is not here and I do not wish to take any responsibility about it. Still, it has been pretty well discussed. I did not happen to be here when the third reading was proposed.


Mr. SPEAKER:: If no hon. gentleman seconds the motion the Bill will stand.


Mr. COCKSHUTT:: I will second it.


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Motion agreed to.

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(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks.)

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	I s It the intention of the Postmaster General to pay to Anthime LeBrun the balance claimed under his contract for the conveying of the mails from Amqui to St. Leonard le Grand?
2.	If not, why not?


Mr. DOHERTY (Acting Postmaster General) :: 1.	No.
2.	The contract for the conveyance of mails between Amqui and St. Leonard le Grand was awarded to Anthime LeBrun on the 3rd November, 1916, after the invitation of tenders. Under this contract which was to expire 39th September, 1920, Mr. LeBrun took over the service on the 27th November, 1916, and performed it until the 25th April, 1917, for which period he was paid.
Representations were made to the department that LeBrun was a confirmed drunkard and had, in fact, been found lying intoxicated on the road while in charge of the mails. Inquiries were instituted and the charge of insobriety was confirmed The contract was immediately cancelled under the clause therein which empowers the Postmaster General to terminate it without notice in the event of failure to deliver the mails or violation by the contractor of any of the provisions or stipulations set forth in the contract.


REV. WARD WHITE.
Mr. NEELY:: 1.	Is Rev. Ward White, of Lunenburg, N.S., a recruiting officer?
2.	If so, what remuneration does he receive per day?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	Yes.
2.	None


AUTOMOBILES-DEPARTMENT OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE.
Mr. PROULX:: 1.	How many automobiles are being used by the Department of Militia in the city of Ottawa?
2.	How many chauffeurs are employed by the said department at the city of Ottawa?
3.	What is the average salary of these chauffeurs?
What is the amount which was paid by the Department of Militia for the purchase of these automobiles ?
5. Are officials of the department or officers of the militia permitted to use these automobiles for pleasure trips?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	Three are used by the Department of Militia and Defence-one by the Parliamentary Secretary, Department of Militia and Defence; one by the Chairman of the Military Hospitals Commission and one by the Minister of Militia and Defence. Four are at the disposal of ministers of the Crown to assist in carrying on their official duties since the Parliament buildings were burned, the House of Commons being so far removed from their respective offices.
2.	Automobiles are driven by men of the Permanent Army Service Corps, Mechanical Transport Section.
3.	Receive pay of their rank.
4.	$16,816.40.
5.	No.


MR. S. C. RIOU.
Mr. GAUVREAU:: What is the amount of the costs paid by the Department of Justice, or any other department, to Mr. S. C. Riou, advocate of Fra-serville, in the case of The King vs. Joseph Belanger of Cacouna, Temiscouata, both in the Exchequer Court and in the Supreme Court of Canada?


Mr. DOHERTY:: Mr. Riou has not been paid any sum by the Government. He did not act for the Crown but for the suppliant, whose costs were taxed and paid to him as follows:
Exchequer Court	$376.81
Supreme Court	 692.89


RECRUITS IN UNITED STATES.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Have any persons been authorized or directed to obtain recruits in the United States?
2.	Have any Canadians been named for that or kindred purposes?
3.	If so, what are their names and positions ?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 
QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURNS.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Have any sums of money been paid in connection with naval recruiting for Nova Scotia during the past two years?
2.	If so, to whom and for what purposes were the said amounts paid?


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
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Mr. A. K. Maclean:	For a return showing
copies of correspondence between the Department of Militia and Defence of Canada, the War Purchasing Commission of Canada, and the British War Office, concerning a target practice rod or the use of same by the Canadian Expeditionary Force.
Mr. Fortier:	For a return showing copies
of all correspondence, requests, telegrams ana other documents in connection with the establishment of the distribution of rural mail in the parish of St. Jean Deschaillons, and also in the parish of Ste. Philomtae, in the county of I.otbinit-re, Quebec.
Mr. Delisle:	For a copy of all Orders in
Council, letters, telegrams and correspondence concerning the appointment of G. A. Dillon in connection with the interned aliens camps. Also, a copy of the instructions given to said G. A. Dillon with a tabulated statement showing the purchases made through him, the amounts paid, his travelling expenses and the commissions received by him since appointment.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier:	For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Board of Trade of the city of Quebec and the Prime Minister on the subject of the Report of the Special Commission on Railways.
Mr. E. Lapointe:	For a copy of all documents, reports, letters, correspondence and plans, with reference to the difficulties between the Transcontinental Railway Commission, the Department of Railways and Canals and the city of Fraserville, on the subject of the lock or reservoir pn Lake aux Loutres, in the county of Kamouraska, near the track of the Transcontinental Railway.

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Bill No. 65, to amend the Boards of Trade Act, Sir George Foster, considered in committee, and read the third time.

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Sir GEORGE FOSTER moved the second reading of Bill No. 83, relating to the Honorary Advisory Council for Scientific and Industrial Research.
He said: , The outbreak of the war brought very forcibly home to the attention of most great countries of the world, particularly those on the Allied side of the contest, the march in advance that Germany had made in industrial and economic matters, which had made her the happy possessor of the basic raw materials in a great many of the different quarters of the globe, and had also transferred to her, in the process of years, practical monopolies in many of the key industries and basic industries of the world. So it happened that, after the war broke out, Great Britain especially found herself deprived of many processes which had been initiated, so to speak, in Great Britain itself by way of invention and primary development, but which had afterwards been gradually taken over by the German people and, under their peculiar and thorough methods, had come to be, as I have said, virtual monopolies; that is, Germany practically controlled the supply of the world and became the purveyor of these much needed and very valuable processes to the Test of the world. These matters were brought practically to the attention of the different Governments, and from that time France, Great Britain, Italy, the United States of America, Australia and Canada to a certain extent, have been practically alive to the situation and have been developing measures by which in the future they tshall not be dependent for those basic materials and basic processes upon alien or foreign countries. The British Government took the matter up and appointed., in July, 1915, a committee of the Privy Council, consisting of six official and three unofficial members, who should have, in general, charge of the encouragement and promotion of scientific and industrial research. This [DOT]committee of the Privy Council appointed a Council on Scientific and Industrial Research, advisory to the committee of the Privy Council. Sir William McCormick
presides over this council, and associated with him are seven other -members, eminent practical scientists of Great Britain. That Advisory Council undertook to make certain examinations, to. find out certain information, and to make practically available, so far as it was able to do so, the agencies and facilities for scientific and industrial research which already existed in Great Britain, .and, to co-ordinate as far as possible, the efforts of these dislocated and independent .agencies for research, and, in general, to stimulate the desire for and promote the development of industrial .and scientific research. The committee of the Privy Council were responsible to the Treasury Board for any moneys which would be placed .at their disposal, and they rely upon the Advisory Council for examination, anforma-ition, .advice 'and counsel. Within .a late period, at the end of last year, I think, or near the end of last year, after the Advisory Council bad been .at work for nearly ia year, and had made their .prelimimary survey, the British Government granted a charter to the subcommittee of the Council, forming it into an Imperial trust, .and they [DOT]have placed at the disposal of that subcommittee of the Privy Council about .a million pounds sterling for the various purposes which they .had in view. This Imperial Trust is .also -allowed itio take bequests that may be made from any quarter whatsoever, and -to manage the funds made u.p of appropriations by the Government .and of bequests from individuals or corporations. This scheme was at first entirely confined to the United Kingdom, but it soon became apparent that it might, with advantage, be extended in the scope of its work, and as a consequence communications were bad with the Overseas Dominions, and the proposal was made that in such way -as might be deemed best by the Overseas Dominions, co-operation in such research work should he had, .and as a result of such co-operation, agencies, were appointed or arranged for in the Overseas Dominions, through which there might be communication between and co-operation of effort, and the distribution of the results .gained in the United Kingdom or in the Overseas Dominions. There are many oases in Which research might be better undertaken by the parent society, or the committee in Great Britain, even though they particularly .affected the Overseas Dominions. Other matters of research which were initiated or desired by the home society might be better carried out in Australia, in Canada, in India, in
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some oither overseas dominion, and so the foundation would be laid for a generalization of the scope of this arrangement, and for concurrent action such as I have stated.
Since that time, Australia has appointed a committee and an advisory council, -largely on the same lines, one has -been established and in .South Africa, and New Zealand is discussing and arranging for the appointment of an Advisory Council and a collaborating 'body. About a year ago the Canadian Government passed an order .by which a subcommittee was appointed in Canada consisting of the Ministers of Agriculture of Labour, of Mines, of the Interior, of Trade and Commerce, and of Inland Revenue. These were appointed because each with the exception of the Department of Labour, has more or less work of that kind going on now. The Mines Department, for instance, has one of the best equipped laboratories on this continent, although not the largest by any means. The Department of the Interior has, in connection with McGill University, a laboratory at work chiefly upon woods, their tensile strength', and everything connected with them. The Committee of the Privy Council was appointed to take in and co-relate all the Government branches or departments which have some such agency at work at the present time. The Department of Labour was added as well, because labour forms a very important part in this matter, and the -Minister of Labour was made a representative on that committee. Shortly after that subcommittee, following out the plan of Great Britain, appointed an Advisory Council of eleven members, consisting of three representatives of the industrial iamd business interests of the country, and eight scientists. Dr. Macallum of the University of Toronto, was appointed as the administrative chairman of this board. That Advisory Council was organized in December of last year, and has since been holding its meetings and going on with its work. I think it would be just as well for me to read an outline of the instructions sent by the Committee of the Privy Council to the Advisory Council. The memorandum reads:
This Advisory Council, in a memorandum from the Chairman of the Committee of the Privy Council, has been charged with the following duties:
(a)	To ascertain and tabulate the various agencies in Canada which are now carrying on scientific and industrial research in the universities and colleges, in the various laboratories of the Government, in business organizations and industries, in scientific associations or by private or associated investigators.

(b)	To note and schedule the lines of research or investigation that are being pursued by each such agency, their facilities and equipment therefor, the possibilities of extension and expansion, and particularly to ascertain the scientific man power available for research and the necessity of adding thereto.
(c)	To co-ordinate these agencies so as to prevent overlapping of effort, to induce cooperation and team work, and to bring up a community of interest, knowledge and mutual helpfulness between each other.
(d)	To make themselves acquainted with the problems of a technical and scientific nature that are met with by our productive and industrial interests, and to bring them into contact with the proper research agencies for solving these problems, and thus link up the resources of science with the labour and capital employed in production so as to bring about the best possible economic results.
(e)	To make a scientific study of our common unused resources, the waste and byproducts of our farms, forests, fisheries and industries, with a view to their utilization in new or subsidiary processes of manufacture and thus contributing to the wealth and employment of our people.
(f)	To study the ways and means by which the present small number of competent and trained research men can be added to from the students and graduates of science in our universities and colleges, and to bring about in the common interest a more complete cooperation between the industrial and productive interests of the country and the teaching centres and forces of science and research.
(g)	To inform and stimulate the public mind in regard to the importance and utility of applying the results of scientific and industrial research to the processes of production by means of addresses to business and industrial bodies, by the publication of bulletins and monographs, and such other methods as may seem advisable.
That sets out generally the plan and scope of the work of the Advisory Council, under the direction of the sub-committee, of the Privy Council. These eleven gentlemen are all honorary members. They are men distinguished in business or in scientific and industrial research and knowledge. They1 give their time entirely free; their travelling and working expenses are paid. It was felt advisable that it should, be the duty of one man to keep the machine in motion and to be the' general director of its energies, giving all his time and effort thereto. He has been denominated the Administrative Chairman, taking exactly the same position with regard to our Advisory Council as Sir William McCormick takes on the British Advisory Council. A salary of $10,000 is paid to Dr. Macallum for this work. In this way we get the services of eleven men of distinguished attainments and of great capacity who give -I can very well attest that they have done so during the last six months-a great deal of their valuable services to the working out

of the purpose set forth in these instructions. It is not the intention of the subcommittee of the Privy Council, of this arrangement, or of the Advisory Council, to duplicate work which is already going on. The intention is rather to prevent overlapping and to co-ordinate the work. The first work that they have undertaken is, in line with the instructions, to tabulate the scientific and research facilities, agencies and -equipment in Canadian educational institutions, and to communicate with and to tabulate in the same way those agencies and facilities, outside of the universities, which are possessed by private corporations, public bodies, or associations for scientific purposes. On the other hand, they are to find out from the industrial and productive workers of Canada what are the peculiar problems which meet them in their work, how far they are trying to solve those problems and what aid can be given them towards that solution. They are to distribute such of these problems as it is possible to the different industrial and research agencies which are already established and which are doing work in Canada. That has been carried on in a very effective way. I think it would be interesting to the House to have a very short digest of the methods they are pursuing to get that information. That information is very widely disseminated; it has to be sought in every part of . Canada, and it must be fully and accurately obtained if it is to be available as a reliable basis. Five or six great societies or associations have voluntarily banded themselves together for the purpose of getting this information: the Manufacturers' Association of Canada, the Canadian Mining Institute, the Chemical Society, and the Society of Civil Engineers of Canada, and an association of technical organizations of different kinds in Canada.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: Does this last technical organization already exist?


George Green Foster: They are all in existence. The system they proceed upon is to prepare questionnaires which are sent out to all colleges and universities, scientific and research organizations, and are designed to secure in full the information to which I have referred. Questionnaires are sent'also to the managers of industrial and productive interests in Canada, the questions being so arranged as to bring out what these respective bodies are doing in the way of research, what are the problems which cause them difficulty, how far they are solving or trying to solve those problems, and how far aid may be required. This inquiry spreads itself over a vast number of organizations, industries and productive associations. These bodies, united for that purpose, appointed a central committee of sixteen. This central committee appointed a general committee of five to see to the distribution and collection of these questionnaires. They establish headquarters in the different provinces through the members of their organizations in those provinces. To make a long story short, the questions get into the hands of the parties for whom they are intended, but they are not left there without assurance that they will be intelligently and fully answered, to the largest maximum percentages. So that field aides and helpers voluntarily working from the members of those five associations are enlisting in the field some seven or eight hundred men whose duty it is to explain what' answers are required to the questionnaires - much valuable information can be given to facilitate the work of those who answer-to see that the questions are answered and that they are forwarded again to the central committee. These questionnaires have already been sent out, a large number of them are now coming in and the tabulation has been commenced. The House will see what a fund of wide, useful and accurate information will be in the hands of the Advisory Council when the questions come in and the information therein contained is placed at the service of the Advisory Council.
It is also of great moment that the man power which is eligible and available for research shall be multiplied in our Dominion. It is rather a sad thing that many young men who have come out from our different colleges and universities and who have developed strains of original research and scientific inquiry are later snapped up by concerns in other countries, particularly in the United States. Many of them are to-day doing yeoman service in the great industrial operations in the United States, some of them receiving princely salaries. On the other hand, we have had a very small number of such men, owing, I suppose, to our smaller development in rich industrial concerns and the lesser interest that has heretofore been taken therein. The result is that many of our young men have not been encouraged to remain and pursue their investigations and work in Canada.
One duty laid upon this Advisory Council is to endeavour to reinforce that staff in our own country, in the first place.



by creating an interest in industrial establishments. This interest is now rapidly being increased, the necessity for it being more and more seen and felt by our industrial operators. In this way there will be created a home, as it were, and a place for work and occupation in Canada. In the second place it is proposed to endeavour to reinforce that staff by taking hold of those young men before they have gone away, in so far as they have developed evidences of peculiar excellence in the way of research, and by a system of studentships and fellowships encouraging them for one or two years after they have come through their university or college, to take up and pursue lines of research. There are to be six hundred dollars studentships and twelve hundred dollars fellowships, and a limited number of those will be distributed, and the Advisory Council has for the last few months been trying to secure that class of young men in our different institutions who may be as it were pre-empted for that kind of work.	.
What I have said will indicate to the House what it is proposed to carry out under this system which has been inaugurated, which has its branches in all parts of the Overseas Dominions and which is being extended to India and to some of the protectorates as well. We have connection with the Advisory Council of Great Britain by assessors. One of the council is at present in Great Britain representing the Advisory Council as an assessor. He sits with the Advisory Council in. Great Britain while he is present there during the summer; he gets to know all that they are doing; he gets all the information and knowledge possible; in turn, he gives them information as to what we in this country are doing, and he keeps up the connection between the two bodies. Similar connections are being kept up with other Overseas Dominions. Sufficient has been stated to show that in this arrangement there is the beginning of a very strong, active and useful organization which, in the ways that I have mentioned, will enforce the lesson of the necessity for science, industry and production marching hand in hand. If that has been necessary in preceding years, it probably has never been more necessary than at the present time, and it will probably be all the more necessary after the war has ended and the adjustments of peace are brought about.1 Then, more than at any previous stage of the world's history, there will be the necessity for knowl-
edge and scientific help being given to the processes of industry and of production in order that the keen competition that is coming may be met, and that the utmost of productive output may be had. This is simply taking time by the forelock, bat none too 6oon, to get this system into working order in Canada and in this way to prepare ourselves as far as possible for the productive and industrial work of the future.
This organization was created by order in council, and this legislation is simply to put in statutory form the mode of organization which was adopted and passed by order in council.


Wilfrid Laurier: Who are the members of the Advisory Council?
Sir GEORGE FOSTER; The administrative chairman is A. B. Macallum, M.D., Ph.D., Sc.D., LL.D., F.R.S., Ottawa.


Wilfrid Laurier: He is professor of what?
, Sir GEORGE FOSTER:	He was professor of Physios in Toronto University. The other^members are:
F. D. Adams, Ph.D., Sc.D., LL.D., F.R.S. Dean, Faculty of Applied Science, McGill University, Montreal
T. Bienvenu, Esq., Vice-President and General Manager La Banque Provincials du Canada, Montreal.
R.	Hobson, Esq., President Steel Co., of Canada, Hamilton.
S.	F, Kirkpatrick, M. So., Professor of
Metallurgy, Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario.	.
J. C. McLennan, Ph.D., F.R.S., Professor of . Physics and Director of the Physios Laboratory, University of Toronto, Toronto.
A.	S. Mackenzie, Ph. D., D.C.L., President Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S.
W. C. Murray, M.A., LL.D., President, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.
R. A. Ross, Esiq,., E.E. (Tor.), M. Can. Soc. C.E., Consulting Engineer, Montreal.
R. F. Ruttan, M.A., M.D., Sc.D., Professor of Chemistry and Director of the Chemical Laboratories, McGill University, Montreal.
Arthur Surveyer, B.A. Sc., M. Can. Soc., C.E., Consulting Engineer, Montreal.


Wilfrid Laurier: The project
which has been elucidated by my right hon. friend is certainly well conceived, and the idea is a very commendable one. One feature which certainly merits my commenda-

tion is the fact that this council is to be connected with similar organizations in other parts of the British Empire, that is to say, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. Undoubtedly, if all those associations work with a common purpose, the object must be very advantageous. If that object which this legislation has in view was inspired by the German example, we should, if it is not yet too late, pay far greater attention to technical education than we have done before. If there is one thing in which Germany has attained superiority, it is in the application of the discoveries of science to all the arts, not only of peace, tout unfortunately of war. The Germans have attained this superiority by their technical schools and the special attention which they have given to technical education. I am sorry that more attention has not been paid to techhical education in this country, and the sooner we take up that subject, the better it will be for the interests, my right hon. friend has in view at the present time.
Motion agreed te, Bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. W. H. Bennett in the ChaiT.
On section 3-Appointment of Council.


Wilfrid Laurier: The Chairman of the Board receives a salary. Are any other .members of the Council paid?


George Green Foster: 
Mir. A. K. MACLEAN:: Is this Council to be .a permanent organization, or merely temporary?


George Green Foster: It is not a temporary body at all. It is proposed to make it a permanent body amd to 'have the benefits of its services in increasing degree from year to year. The Advisory Council are following out closely the same plan that bias been adopted an Great Britain. There the Advisory 'Council get .into communication with the great engineering, scientific and metallurgical societies, steel plants and industries of that kind, and subsidiary committees, working 'together under the supervision of the Council, .are formed for the purpose of stimulating research and solving .the various problems that come up. Three standing committees bave .already been set up in Great Britain, the Metallurgical Committee, the Mining Committee, .and one other. Men eminent in these different lines have banded themselves together as committees 'and 'are working in co-operation with the Central Advisory Council.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Although I am not opposed to the constitution of the Council at the present time-in fact, I think, perhaps, it is the best body that could be .appointed to do this work during tlhe period of the war-I .have no faith whatever in the ability of such .a body to perform the work of this nature that it is so desirable should be performed in this country. I do not think it is passible for a body of .scientific men meeting .at Ottawa only two or .three times .a year ito accomplish any results, .and I do not think any member of the Council thinks otherwise. I do not think any good results can be hoped for from similar .bodies in the United States 4 p.m. or in Great Britain, although I concede that practical results may possibly be expected in Great Britain, which is an older country. The distances there are shorter, and the men who are voluntarily giving their services can readily be brought together, and they may have a good deal of time to give to this sort of work. But in this country every member of the council is engaged in other work, and cannot do justice to ihis ordinary vocation and at the same time render any great service to the nation as a .member of the council. I am not however opposing the constitution of the council for the time being. I think the idea is a very good one indeed, but I hope the 'Government and the country will not commit themselves to the policy of making the council a permanent body. It can, however, blaze a trail for work to he done in the future by men who shall belong to the Cival Service of Canada, and who will be able to give their whole time to this research work.


Mr. STEELE:: I am sure the House must appreciate very much indeed the splendid patriotic spirit that has actuated the members of the council in giving their services gratis for this work. I wonder, however, if any other motive played its part in the appointment of a council of an almost entirely honorary character. I fear that we in this country, and this Parliament espec-

ially, are actuated to a considerable extent by a desire not to spend money on such work as this. I quite agree with the hon. member for Halifax that at the present time it is perhaps all right to accept the *services of these men on the terms on which they have been offered, but I do not believe that any permanent useful organization can be built utp in that way. I hope the Minister of Trade .and Commerce1 and this. parliament will get aw-ay from .the old time parsimonious habit and be generous to this body. We should be ready to spend even hundreds of thousands of dollars on an organization that will do work that is not only necessary to this country at the present time, but which will bring vast profits to the nation generally in the future, if the work is carried on in an aggressive manner. I am sure that the personnel of the council is beyond criticism, but as the hon. member for Halifax has said, these men are all engaged in other work and cannot be expected to give u,p a large part of their time land energy to gratuitous work. I hope that before the next meeting of parliament the Minister o.f Trade and Commerce will lay a proper foundation for carrying out what must be regarded as a most extensive programme for .a body containing only two paid officials to carry out for the benefit of the nation. I trust that in the near future we sh.al.1 have in this country under ^ the control of the Government a vast institute for industrial and scientific rese.ar.oh. There is plenty of work for such an institute to do, work that would be of vast advantage not only to the manufacturing and industrial interests of the country but to the nation at large.


George Green Foster: Sufficient unto
the day are tire possibilities thereof. When I said "that this was a permanent organization I simply meant that it was not for this year only, for no man can tell what such an organization will grow into or what changes will be made. I think, however, all hon. gentlemen in this House will agree with me that an excellent beginning has been made. The first thing to do is to get a foundation of information and facts, and that is what these gentlemen have set themselves to do. They have agreed to pursue that until they do get this information and they have agreed to do it without pay as 'an honorary work for the country's benefit. What that may develop into one cannot tell.
.Mr. NESBITT:	What arrangement will
you make for transmitting * to the colleges and schools .any information they get?


George Green Foster: The information they get is chiefly, at the first, for their own working out. It is not so much information for the schools or colleges that is contained in the answers to these questionnaires that have been sent out, which answers are now coming in and being tabulated. But results as they do accrue will be published in various forms so that the information may become available to all who are interested in it and in so far as it is a matter of public interest to the public as well. Neither is it to be thought that these eleven, or nine, men are going- to do all the research work themselves. I quite agree with my hon. friend that it is not possible for them to do that. They are chiefly the body which is to cordate and co-ordinate this information and form a plan which can afterwards be worked out. But, I think we were fortunate in getting gentlemen like- these to undertake the preliminary work. A great deal more of this work will have to be done in the future than has been done in the past if Canada is to hold her own.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Who are the representatives of industry on this council?


George Green Foster: Mr. Hobson of Hamilton, Mr. Surveyor, Mr. Bienvenue and Mr. Ross, who is a practical engineer. My right hon. friend (Sir Wilfrid Lanrier), spoke of the leaning which he rather had towards technical education; or he spoke of it as a matter that might be more generously and widely supported than it is at the present time. I think we .all .agree with him in that respect. But Germany itself has. shown instance where immense expenditures have been made on scientific and industrial researcn which to a certain extent prepares the way for the better working out of technical education in the; interest of the labourers, the artisans and the general working public. Numbers of these immense corporations in Germany have spent millions of marks themselves on scientific research, for solving problems the solution of which has given a tremendous impetus to all branches of industry in Germany. The same thing is taking place in the United States. Large industries in the United States are paying out millions and millions of dollars absolutely for this research and scientific work. We have done very little in that respect. We ought to do a great deal more but that does not preclude the substratum, the very important part, that my right hon. friend mentioned.


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not at all
condemn the idea which my right hon. friend (Sir George Foster) advocates'-very far from it. In the United States and, indeed, in Canada, some of the large industrial corporations have special appropriations every year devoted to research and invention. I do not know how much they have spent in this way, but, especially in the United States, they have devoted very large amounts of money to these objects. In Canada large industrial corporations also have invention and research departments, but, I believe that the foundation of that work lies in technical education. That will afford the best basis for what you have now in mind.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: As far as I understand, the German Government assisted private corporations in their researches, but the private corporations were the ones that really carried on the research work and established industries which spread throughout the world. I know that this work has been carried on by private corporations in the United States. My hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce is quite right when he says that they have spent a large amount of money on their research department, but they are not going to tell you what they are doing. Is this council supposed to compile the information it gets from other people throughout the country? If a man has some secret in his business, he is not going to tell you what it is.


George Green Foster: We do not ask him to do that. These big German corporations spent large amounts of their own money upon this work.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: They did, but the Government assisted them.


George Green Foster: The Government assisted them, but much less than we have believed. We have a somewhat exaggerated idea of the amount of assistance that the German Government has given to industry, trade and commerce. It has favoured them by legislation rather than by expenditures. It has really been by expenditures, combinations and co-operation amongst producers themselves in Germany that they have brought about the great results that have flowed to German industry.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Except in transportation.


George Green Foster: Even in transportation. They have a system whereby they all work together. With reference to
raw mia/terAal, wherever At may oome from, outside or inside of Germany, ox from foreign countries, it is manufactured and goes back to be sold ito the consumers, and in all this process there is ia close co-operation between the different corporations themselves, each feeding into and helping the other. It As that and not iso much subventions either to industry or to .steamships that has done the work for Germany, although as regards steamships, railways, canals and transportation the Government has done a great deal.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would the minister explain what is meant by 'industrial research? Do I understand that if an industrial concern encounters some difficulty in producing a product, some servant or employee of the council will be available for that industrial concern to investigate its particular business and point out to it the disadvantages under which it is operating, or the improper methods which it is employing and how, by the adoption of scientific methods, it can achieve different results. Is it the intention to loan the servants of the council to such a corporation or business body for such a purpose?


Six GEORGE FOSTER:: No, At is just the other way. For example, when I was in Cobalt last summer, I saw employed a process for separating ores, which had lately been put in operation in the United States, and which had just gone into operation in Cobalt, called the flotation process, by which oil and water forming globules absorb, or rather encase, the fine metallic portions and float them. They are now working over the old dumps in Cobalt, which could not have been worked by any other process.
There was an industrial problem. There was this reservoir of value, to la limited extent, which was unutilized. What is the method by which that ore, An fine and distributed parts, may be recovered? Scientific investigation went to work upon that problem and ultimately solved it, so that now it is patent that a very greatly improved and qualitative process has been brought into this sphere of the world's production.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That process had existed for many years, although it has been much improved in the last five years. But a research council would not help that very much; that would depend upon the ability and tenacity of some inventor, who would probably receive but little reward for his labour and skill.


George Green Foster: That is where
some of the most important advances are

to :be made in the work of development, in connection with what we may call those lame ducks. A process has been scented; it has been partly started, it has done a certain amount of good, but it has come to a point where nobody seems able to move it any further, and, while partly useful, it has not perfected its purpose. Then someone is needed to take hold of that and, by research and investigation, hit upon the thing that will make it a perfect rather than an imperfect process.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I agree that that is where great help can be given, where an inventor arrives at a " fault " and cannot get any further. But how will this help that?


George Green Foster: I explained the advantage that would be derived if we had, at the close of the war, as a result of the establishment of this council, twenty, thirty, fifty, sixty or one hundred agencies of research. My hon. friend will see that the method is one of finding out and co-ordinating, of compiling information and disseminating it, so that the best possible use may be made of all the agencies which exist in the country.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would it not be better to employ a staff of highly trained scientific men to carry on the investigations? That would not mean a very large expenditure. Our industries in this country are largely in a very crude condition, although, of course, there are some exceptional industries that are well organized and very effectively and scientifically carried on. We will require more science in our industry after the war than ever before, and I agree with my hon. friend from South Perth (Mr. Steele) that we should not be niggardly in starting off this important body. I am not sure that even to-day, when we must carefully guard every dollar of expenditure, it would not be wise for us to appropriate quite a substantial sum for the establishment of a corps of highly skilled scientific men.


George Green Foster: My hon. friend would find many difficulties. In the first place, he would find it absolutely impossible to get a dozen or twenty trained first class	scientific	men. You	cannot findthem	in this	country or any	other,at the present time. They cannot be got. I doubt if we could find half a dozen,	such as	we would like to	have.Then,	in order	to carry on	their	work,
these men require extensive and very elaborate equipment. We have in this 
country some of the finest equipments, although not the most extensive, and in these places you have trained investigators who, to a certain extent, will carry on these lines of investigation. We are trying, in the first place, to reinforce that small regiment of scientific investigators-I speak of it in that way because of their very small number in this country-and every man who can be got is being 'taken up by the industrial corporations.
I believe that this is the best possible way of initiating the matter and I think that in the future there will be very large and beneficent results. Some men in this country say we want a great central institute where you will have all of. these research operations carried on. That is very good, and that may come some time, but it would be tremendously expensive and difficult to man.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: We are not big enough for that yet. When the minister takes action he should get hold of some man. who has made a study of scientific organization and industry. That is one of the things where the United States have applied themselves for the last four or five years, with greater benefit towards the cheapening of the cost of goods than anything that has happened in many years.


George Green Foster: No doubt about that.


Mr.   MACEONALD@: The minister has added another commission to the long list which this Government have appointed. Whenever there is anything to be thought out, instead of showing any initiative in grappling with problems by proper methods of organization, the Government have approached the matter by the creation of commissions. We are asked to stand round in admiring gaze and say to each other, "So and so, members of that commission, are working for nothing." That has been the case with several of these commissions. Somebody has been trusted with tremendous responsibility and willing to do the work for nothing, and the country is expected to believe some great work is to be achieved. What has become of the Economic Commission appointed last year, on which a large number of gentlemen were supposed to work for nothing except their expenses? Nobody has heard of anything they have done. Professor Macallum is a very worthy man indeed, and I have the highest personal regard for him. He would do good work, hut there is no use asking a lot of college professors from one part of Canada

to another to make a trip to Ottawa at a time when their classes are in session and all their energies must he devoted to the task of teaching young men who pay the class 'fees, and expect to get the best results. You cannot expect anything of a practical nature from a combination of that kind. I quite agree with the hon. gentleman from Halifax and the hon. gentleman from North Oxford when they point out that there is only one way to deal with this matter, and that is on business lines alone. These dilettante organizations will produce no results. We will get tired of-one commission after another, appointed to report upon matters, when the reports never come, and the business men of the country reach that point where they say there is no use bothering about it. Why should we not appoint two or three well-known scientists and retain their services, to work all the time, and then you will get good results. You will get no results from Professor Maeallum and these worthy gentlemen who visit Ottawa and lunch together, and then go back home and attend to their ordinary duties. Nothing in the way of development [DOT]of the industries of the nation will ever result from. that.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On Section 4-Administrative Chairman.
Edward Walter Nesbitt: Why is his salary not
stated?


George Green Foster: It is stated in
the order in council.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is Professor
Maeallum to reside in Ottawa?


George Green Foster: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Permanently?


George Green Foster: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How old a man
is he?


George Green Foster: 55 or 56.


Michael Steele: He is not old in years,
but old in his knowledge of science. I do not think you could get a better man for the position within the bounds- of Canada than Dr. Maeallum.
Mr. A. Ii. MACLEAN:	I do not doubt
his capacity and experience -as a scientists, but these very qualities may disqualify him -absolutely for the position of head of a 'board of this kind.


George Green Foster: As having too
much knowledge?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Not as having
too much scientific knowledge, but if requires some business capacity. The mere fact that he has devoted all his life to scientific pursuits may unfit him fo-r a position -as administrator. Frequently it does. He may be a very good man to have as a member of the council.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Has he got the ginger
and the pep?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It seems -to me a young man of some industrial and business experience would probably be more useful.


George Green Foster: My hon, friend, unwittingly probably, does an injustice to Professor Maeallum. The -hon. gentleman might make an inquiry as to- Professor M-acallum's business ability as well as his scientific knowledge, his ginger and his pep, and then tell me what report he gets.
(Mr. A. K. MACLEAN: How do you -spell that word " pep "? However, I am glad to hear that statement by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and I am not criticising.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 5-Duties of Council:
Wilfrid Laurier: The duties
are not very large

simply to advise -the subcommittee on scientific questions.


George Green Foster: There must be so-me co-ordinating body which connects it with the Government and with the expenditure, a subcommittee of the Privy Council. This -advisory council carries on its work under the supervision and instruction of the subcommittee.


Mr. MARCIL:: Will this body c-o-me into contact with the Conservation Oo-mim-is-sion?
Sir GEORGE FO-STER: N-ow, this body co-ordinates with these different -agencies, and they -are all working in harmony.


Charles Marcil: Will it be above the Conservation Commission oi o-n an equal footing?


George Green Foster: We will not say which. They co-operate.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 10-statement of expenditure and receipts and audit thereof.
Wilfrid Laurier: This section
provides that a statement of receipts and expenditure shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament. I would suggest that the time of submitting this statement be speci-

fled adding " during the first two weeks of the session " or words to that effect.


George Green Foster: We might add
after the words " Houses of Parliament " the words " within fifteen days after Par-, liament opens."	[DOT]


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
Bill reported.


[Stage Direction]
On the .motion of Right Hon. Sir George Foster for Committee of Supply:
Mr. G. W. KYTE (Richmond, N.S.):: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the Chair I desire to discuss a report of great public interest which was laid on the table of the House on the 13th of this month. I refer to the report made by Commissioner Mr. W. F. O'Connor, K.C., which has been the subject of more or less discussion in the public press since the day it was made public.
I desire to congratulate the Minister of Labour upon having accomplished something in the direction -upon which he set out when he passed the order in council authorizing inquiry into the cost of living in the month of November last. Several abortive attempts have been made during the past seven or eight months to deal with the cost of living, but the report of Mr. O'Connor is the first -substantial benefit that has been derived from the activities of the Department of Labour since the war began. It had been called to the attention of this Government many times that the cost of living was bearing more and more upon the people and that in view of the extraordinary conditions arising out of the war, it was in the highest degree desirable that this Government should take action similar to that -taken by sail other belligerent countries. As early iais the session of 1915 ia motion was made- in this House by the member for Brantford (Mr. Goekshutt), 'asking for the appointment of -a food controller, or the taking of some other steps to -prevent undue enhancement of the prices of the necessaries of life, No -actiom was taken. Every session since then the matter has been di-s-cus-sed, bu-t with the same result. In the month of May I had the privilege of moving the -adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing the extraordinary rise in the price of flour and other wheat products that was manifested an that d-ay's
[Sir Wilfrid Daurier.l
market reports. Tihe Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White), speaking fo-r the Government, intimated that -as s-oon 'as the Government of the United States should take action -along -that line this Government would take similar -action. Fortunately for this country, it did not 'take the Government of the United States as long to -act after it had become a belligerent nation 'as it took the Government of Canada. Some three weeks after wiar was declared by the United States a food controller w-as appointed in that country and legislation was introduced into both Houses of Congress giving him -ample power to deal with this question.
-Sir GEORGE FOSTER: Does my hon. friend say that that legislation -is yet passed?


George William Kyte: No, -but a food controller has been very actively on the job in the United States for miany months.


George Green Foster: Who?


George William Kyte: Mr. Hoover.


George Green Foster: Mr. Hoover has performed no single official act since he came back to the United States by virtue of >any authority conferred upon hi-m by Act of Congress.
Mr. KYTE.: He has not h-ad legislative -authority to perform any official -act, but his activities 'are manifest just the same, and the results of those activities have , been reflected here in Canada.


George Green Foster: So are the activities of my hon. friend, but they are not official.


George William Kyte: If the Minister of Trade and Commerce had directed the activities of his department into the channel in which we are all interested, perhaps better results would have been achieved.
What are the findings of Mr. O'Connor, the commissioner, in respect of the 'supply of foodstuffs? He investigated the operations of the principal 'cold storage companies, abattoirs and export houses in Canada and the effect of the operation of these companies upon the prices of bacon, eggs, cheese, beef, butter, pork, mutton and lamb are disclosed in the interesting report to which I have referred. On pages 3 and 4 of his report, Mr. O'Connor says:
A few of the cold storage companies, however, have attained such dimensions and have so centralized the business in certain lines that as respects particular commodities particular companies are able to exercise a practical monopoly, especially of export business.

That is the very danger that members of the House of Commons anticipated immediately after the outbreak of war. War brings about unusual conditions. It brings about large aggregations; it brings about big business. The citizens of Canada have been congratulated many times upon the tremendous amount of money that has been expended in this country since 1914 in the manufacture of war munitions. The enormous profits which have been made in that branch of industry appear to have whetted the appetites of gentlemen engaged in the manufacture of supplies not necessarily applicable to war operations. Following the lead of the manufacturers of munitions who have been enjoying large profits, manufacturers of and dealers in foodstuffs have been able to tuck away snugly equally large profits and dividends. Discussing the question of bacon, Mr. O'Connor has given some startling figures. The total quantity of bacon handled by twelve of the largest cold storage houses in Canada during 1916 was no less than 150,000,000 pounds. Of that total amount, 140,259,202 pounds were handled, exported, and sold by two cold storage companies.
The names of these cold storage companies were not disclosed in the report of the commissioner, but since its publication two companies that profess to have been injuriously affected or unfairly represented in that report have come forward and disclosed their names. These are two of the largest dealers in food products in Canada, and, inasmuch as they have disclosed their names so far as the report of this commission is concerned, I shall have no hesitation in taking the House into my confidence and stating that the two companies are Matthews-Blackwell, Limited, and the William Davies Company, Limited, both, I understand, having headquarters in Toronto. Out of the total quantity of 151,000,000 pounds of bacon handled, sold and exported in Canada during 1916, no less than 140,259,202 pounds were handled by these two companies, or 93 per cent of the total. Of this quantity the William Davies Company handled about 64 per cent and Matthews-Blackwell, Limited, about 29 per cent. On the subject of bacon, Commissioner O'Connor says:
With regard to bacon we And one company selling 97 millions of the total 1916 cold storage sales of 151 million pounds at a margin of 5.05 cents per pound. The margin of the same company the previous year was 3.67 cents on 57J million pounds. There is no evidence of correspondingly increased storage or other costs. Ninety-four million pounds at least of the sales of 1916 were for export. The margin
of 3.67 was sufficient, satisfactory and profitable in 1915. Why not in 1916? Company No. V it' will be observed sold 42J million pounds of bacon. Its margin was 3.56 cents per pound. The margin of its competitors was small. They were, however, feeding the home market. Its need was not so great. This bacon situation is in a class by itself and will stand some explaining.
We have heard it stated from time to time in justification of the creation of companies with large capital that by the operation of those large companies there would be a reduction of overhead charges and in the cost of operation, and that, therefore, the goods supplied by those large corporations would necessarily and properly be sold to the consuming public at a lower price. That has been the argument advanced every time the merging of companies engaged in the manufacture of foodstuffs or of other necessaries consumed by the people of this country was sought. But taking into account the immensely larger sales by the William Davies Company, Limited, and Matthews-Blackwell, Limited, in Canada in 1916 over preceding years, we are amazed to find that they were not content with the margin of profit earned in the years 1913, 1914 and 1915, but in 1916, when they did the largest business known in their history, they charged the highest prices that were ever paid by the consumers of this country.
At page 34, we have this statement from Commissioner O'Connor, referring to companies V and IX, which are the two companies I have mentioned:
It will be observed that the sales of bacon of companies Y and IX together cover 140,000,000 of the 151,000,000 pounds of bacon which were sold by all the cold storage companies of Canada during 1916. The total exports from all Canada according to the computations of the Trade and Commerce Department were for the same year 169,000,000 pounds. Possibly no more striking example of a monopoly of any one commodity can be cited from the trade records of any country supplying the Allies with food. These two companies are here mentioned together, but a distinction between their operations has already been clearly drawn with regard to their margins and the proportion of the quantity sold which was controlled by the respective companies. The cause which led to this unprecedented situation is not far to seek. The basis of a monopoly in this commodity existed before the war and the extraordinary conditions since have enabled its progressive development.
I turn to Table IV in this report, and I find that the margin of profit charged by twelve cold storage companies is given in one of the columns. Company No. 1 sold at a margin of 1.26; company No. 3 at a margin of 3.4; company No. 5-Matthews-Blackwell, Limited-at a margin of

3.65; company No. 7 at a margin of 1.6; company No. 9-the William Davies Company-at a margin of 5.05, and company No. 11 at a margin of 1.37. As I pointed out a moment ago, instead of large business and enormous turnover resulting in reducing the margin of profit and the cost to the consumer, we have here quite the reverse. The smaller cold storage companies that dealt in bacon during 1916 were content with a margin of profit varying from 1.26 to 3.65, but the largest dealer in bacon of all was not content with this margin of profit, but capped the climax by exacting a margin of 5.05 cents per pound.
The quantity of bacon sold by company No. 9, that is by the William Davies Company, was in 1913 approximately 85,000 pounds at a margin of 3.63 cents per pound; in 1914, 14,000,000 pounds at a margin of 3.6 cents per pound; in 1915, nearly
60,000,000 pounds at a margin of 3.67 cents per pound, and in 1916, nearly 100,000,000 pounds, at a margin of 5.05 cents per pound. The operations of company No. 5,-the Matthews-Blackwell, Limited-for the various years are as follows: In 1913, approximately 4,000,000 pounds of bacon were sold at a margin of 2.02 cents per pound. In 1914, more than 9,000,000 pounds were sold at a margin of 1.3 cents per pound. In 1915, nearly 30,000,000 pounds was sold at a margin of 1.2 cents per pound, and in 1916 more than 40,000,000 pounds at a margin of 3.5 cents per pound. The Matthews-Blackwell Limited following the lead given by the William Davies company increased its margin of profit from 1913 to 1916, notwithstanding that its turnover and the business transacted by that company in 1916 was far in excess of that of any other year of its history. The general margin for all the other cold storage companies of Canada has decreased from 1.06 cents per pound in 1913 to .7 cents per pound in 1916. With the exception of the two companies that I have mentioned, all the other cold storage companies doing business in Canada found their margin of profit was reduced. This illustrates the effect of active competition. The very reverse process has been exemplified in regard to bacon and the resulting higher margins. These are the two most striking examples shown in the records of the effect of competition in the one case and of practical monopoly in the other.
There are 110 cold storage warehouses in Canada operated by 67 companies. Forty per cent of the quantity of meat sold by the

three largest companies is sold to the consumers through their retail stores. One company has 80 retail stores; another company has 40 retail stores. These large cold storage companies are in active competition with the smaller tradesmen and the butchers in the respective cities in which their branch establishments are located.
One would imagine that the advantage would he altogether in favour of the consumer in respect of the prices charged by these large companies, because they have greater facilities for handling their products; they can turn out their product at very much less cost, and can derive a larger profit from the by-products in respect of the goods which they handle. They have an advantage over the small butcher in respect of distribution facilities and the manufacture of by-products. The proceeds from these by-products alone should have enabled the abattoir companies to sell at a very much lower margin of profit than the small butcher. But that has not been the case. The larger the business, the larger the price charged the consumer, and the larger the profit; that is the experience the people of Canada have gone through, the very bitter experience, I am bound to say, during the last two or three years.
Take the matter of eggs. The William Davies Company sold 5,566,505 dozen eggs at a margin of 7.27 cents a dozen during 1916, whereas the other cold storage companies investigated were content with margins ranging from 1.74 to 5.38 per dozen. The total trade in eggs was centralized in a few of the largest cold storage companies. We have heard a great deal of complaint throughout the country, and particularly in the larger cities, as to the price of eggs during the last year. The investigation made by Mr. O'Connor has disclosed the fact that the greatest offender in respect of boosting the price of eggs is the large cold storage company, and not the retail dealer. Previous to 1916 the margin of profit on eggs charged by William Davies & Company and other companies under investigation was very much lower than the margin charged in 1916. Commissioner O'Connor finds:
The disproportionate increase received by the cold storage companies as respects eggs and bacon would be Justified if storage costs had correspondingly increased, but the figures submitted by the various companies for the last four years do not evidence a sufficient rise in storage costs to bridge this gap, so the cause must be looked for elsewhere and found. The rise in the price of bacon in 1916 was clearly a result of a practical monopoly brought

about by a huge and unprecedented export trade demand.
As regards cheese, two companies alone sold over 50,000,000 pounds out of the 72,000,000 pounds sold hy all cold storage companies in Canada in 1916. The total sales of cheese by three companies 5 p.m. cover 70,500,000 pounds out of a total of 72,500,000 pounds sold by all cold storage companies in Canada during last year.
With respect to beef we have a similar condition of affairs. Of 170,000,000 pounds of beef that passed through cold storage last year, 124,000,000 pounds was controlled by the seven largest abattoirs; 99,500,000 was sold by three companies alone; 113,000,000 pounds was sold bj* four companies, and
60,000,000 was sold by American companies in Canada, for home consumption at a smaller margin, than that of the Canadian companies. That, Sir, is another striking feature of the food supply of this country. Dealers in beef on the American side of the line are able to supply the Canadian consumer with beef at a lower price than the cold storage companies of Canada charged in the year 1916. Before I am through with my observations I shall be able to show that the Canadian dealer in other food products is selling more cheaply in England to-day than to the consumers in Canada, because in Canada he has the advantage of a tariff which enables him. to boost the prices, whereas in England the products are sold in an open and free market.
With regard to fresh and salt pork, the commissioner finds:
The concentration of this meat in the hands of a few companies is almost as striking as in the cases of the other commodities mentioned, the margin of the seven abattoirs for fresh pork being larger than the common average. The same holds true of the totals for fresh and smoked pork , the margin of the large abattoirs being 1.94 cents per pound, the common margin for cold storage being 1.85; this in spite of the fact that the large abattoir has a very real advantage over the smaller, because of the former's superiors facilities for developing by-products.
There is another instance that the smaller company sold more cheaply to the consumers in Canada in 1916 than did the larger companies. On page 5 of his report Mr. O'Connor says:
I do not mean to be understood as stating that there have not been cases of undue profit taking. Quite the contrary, as will appear at a later stage of this report when I shall express an opinion concerning certain seemingly excessive charging, which in my judgment, is none the less open to criticism because, for
the most part, the commodities affected were destined for export to Great Britain and the
allies overseas	A very small profit,
per pound or per dozen, will produce quite an aggregate, all the same, when the operations of a company cover many millions of pounds or of dozens. For this reason it seems to me that such companies may well be content in such times as these with a very minute profit, per pound or per dozen, indeed.
That is a very severe indictment of the majority of these companies in respect of their dealings with the consumers not only of Canada but of the allied nations. We are all exerting our very best efforts in order that the Allies may win as speedy a victory as possible. We have heard it preached that during war time there should be no profits, or at all events, that profits should be reduced to a minimum. I think everybody in Canada will subscribe to that doctrine, but unfortunately those whom we would expect to be actuated by at least an equal degree of patriotism as regards a speedy and favourable determination of the war are not the first to put those doctrines into practice. Commissioner O'Connor finds that:
Individual instances of profiteering occurred during the year 1916. If they had occurred in the present year since the provisions of the Order in Council under which I am making this investigation, I would consider it my duty to recommend that the facts be laid before the proper Attorney-General for his consideration.
There have been instances of profiteering which were of a criminal character, the commissioner says, having regard to the order in council passed by the Minister of Labour some months ago, and it is only because that order in council was not in force during the period covered by his investigation that criminal proceedings cannot be taken against these companies. The commissioner states on page 32:
We have been paying more for most of our food for domestic consumption than the Allies to whom it is exported. This was not the result of patriotism, but something quite different	The proces in the home market exceeded those in the export market in 1916, for butter, by 1.82 cents per pound; for cheese, by 2.14 cents per pounds; for beef, by 1.24 cents per pound; for ham, by 6.11 cents per pound. For eggs, pork, and bacon thfe prices for home consumption were less than for export; eggs, by 3.76 cents per dozen; pork, by 1.08 cents per pound; and bacon, by 0.48 cents per pound.
While I am on this subject I also desire to call attention to the price of other products of Canada, sold in Great Britain at the present time, as compared with the price of the same commodities in Canadian cities, as follows:


George Green Foster: Has my hon. friend any authority for that except rumour?


George William Kyte: I have -stated my authority, and I shall be the first to withdraw it if it is not true.


George Green Foster: Would it -not be better that the statement should not -have been made if you did not know it wtas true?


George William Kyte: I think there is rather -too much of -an inclination to pussyfoot with regard to matters in which the big interests are concerned.


George Green Foster: Better to pussyfoot than to insinuate untruths, -which are very damaging when put forth by a -member of Barld'ament. If my ho-n. friend meant *anything by his insinuation, it was that, in some wrongful way, the British Admiralty connived iat the carrying of William Davies company stuff and discriminated against

others. I do not believe there is a wo'rd of truth dn i)t.


George William Kyte: What I have said I have said.


George Green Foster: I know you have.


George William Kyte: And I (have stated that if it is not true the William Davies company have ample opportunity to deny it, and I shall be the first to accept their denial.
. Sir GEORGE FOSTER: Does my hon. friend think that is fair-playing the game straight-to insinuate and then isay: If that is not true let some one deny it. He has not measured up to the statement he made that a member of Parliament ought to weigh his words.


George William Kyte: I am not going to enter into competition with the Minister of Trade and Commerce as regards playing the game fair. The hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugs-ley) gave an illustration of how fair the minister played the game with him in connection with the investigation of the New Brunswick Central railway.
As I stated a moment ago,. the William Davies company have , given a statement to the public. They hurriedly rushed to the public press a day or two after the report of Mr. O'Connor was published, and, quite indifferent to the fact that Mr. O'Connor is a public official in whom the public repose considerable trust and confidence, they have this to say of the author of that report:
The author of this inquiry shows a strange lack of even a fundamental knowledge of simple book-keeping, and a dangerous inability to co-ordinate figures. The following are specific and outstanding errors in the report.
And they then proceed to discuss what were apparently errors. But there was no error because, as I have said, Mr. O'Connor made it perfectly clear that he did not wish to convey the impression that the 5.05 cents per pound was profit, but that it was margin only. And why was he obliged to resort to the statement? Questionnaires, as the Minister of Labour pointed out, were forwarded to all these companies at the time that Mr. 0:Connor undertook to make these inquiries. Certain information was demanded of each company, upon which information the commissioner would subsequently make his report. The Minister of Labour, speaking of this report, after having referred to the questions sent out, said at page 3798 of Hansard:
One or two firms said :	We cannot answer
these questions; we are not in a position to give you the particulars.

These were the particulars as to cost of transportation, insurance, cold storage charges from the time the commodities entered into the cold storage warehouse until they reached the point of consumption in Great Britain. The minister continued:
Hon. gentlemen will see that in the case of bacon that is sold in Liverpool the delivery charges would be a very important matter. No answer was given to that question by the firm about which there has been so much talk during the last few days.
The firm of William Davies and Company refused to give the information to Commissioner O'Connor, because as they said, they did not have the information, and yet they castigate and criticise Mr. O'Connor because he set down the marginal profit instead of the actual profit itself.
On page 63 of his report, Commissioner O'Connor says of the action of a certain company:
Its action was not In my judgment illegal, but was it respectable? Likewise as to the more aggravated, because continuous, exao-tion of excessive profits by another firm, on bacon; aside from the matter of illegality, is this sort of thing to he considered respectable? Mine may be as the voice of one crying in the wilderness, hut I have to register in the negative.	.
If it has been as the voice of one crying in the wilderness, it reached the ears of certain ministers of this Government who decided to appoint another inquiry to investigate the work of Commissioner O'Connor. What has Mr. O'Connor found in his report? He finds that as regards at least one or two of these companies there has been profiteering, monopoly, undue enhancement of prices to the consumer, and withholding of food for purposes of speculation. As regards the latter charge, a newspaper report says:
The increased holding of butter, eggs and pork are justifiable on the basis of an equivalent increase of sales since 1916, but that the increase of holdings of beef, bacon, ham, mutton and lamb are not justifiable upon that basis, and are speculative. Accordingly, he says the prices of these commodities should forthwith drop. The stocks of cheese, he thinks, are running too low.
Certain commodities then, according to this statement, have been kept in larger quantities than usual in these cold storage warehouses for the purpose of speculation as to how much further charges can he exacted from the consumer in respect of these commodities.
We have, as I stated, another commission of inquiry that has been constituted for the purpose, I thought, of doing the work that Mr. O'Connor said in this report he

had not time to do. But that is not the case. The statement made by Chairman Henderson in Toronto this morning is that they are going to conduct an independent inquiry quite separate and apart from the work of Commissioner O'Connor. Mr. O'Connor realized and appreciated the difficulties he had in estimating the exact amount of profits earned by the William Davies .company. He .said:
No specific data is given upon the point of storage costs, because it is believed that a special investigation is required into the value of the by-products of meat, and that some compulsorily applicable cost accounting system of storage and other costs on specific commodities should be established.
He says the means. for providing such an expert examination is under way. From that I judge Mr. O'Connor was continuing his investigation for the purpose of ascertaining what was the exact margin of profit earned by the storage companies under investigation, and no one is better able to complete the inquiry than Mr. O'Connor himself. He has been in charge of this work for six months past. He conducted an enormous volume of correspondence. Fro-m his report I gather he was in correspondence with, over a hundred cold storage companies, export dealers and abattoir companies in Canada. His work was not completed, inasmuch as I have said the actual margin of profit was not determined by him, but I cannot understand this Government, instead of supplying Mr. O'Connor with the accountants to enable him to get the proper information which was required, and which was called for under the circumstances, discarded Mr. O'Connor's services altogether, and called Mr. G. F. Henderson,
K.C. I am bound to say that the selection of Mr. Henderson has not been a very happy one for the Government. His appointment was up for consideration a few days ago in this House, and while I have nothing to say as to the standing of Mr. Henderson at the bar of this province, or as to his ability and capacity to discharge any obligation that might properly be imposed upon him by this or any other Government. A few months ago Mr. O'Connor held an inquiry in the city of Ottawa as to the cost of certain food products, and the solicitor who appeared foT the company upon trial was G. F. Henderson, K.C. He was retained several months ago by companies that were the subject of investigation by Mr. O'Connor, and I repeat, to say the least of it, the selection by the Govern, ment of Mr. Henderson as the chairman of that committee to revise the work done
by Mir. O'Connor is a most unfortunate one, and I fear it will not have the confidence of that portion of the people of this country who are most interested in the results. I pointed out the other evening that Mr. Henderson appeared a year ago in the city of Ottawa as solicitor for interests that are, to a certain extent, allied with the interests which are on trial at the present time. He appeared for Colonel Allison before the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into certain contracts for the manufacture of fuses which Allison obtained for his confederates, from the then Shell Committee. The Shell Committee was disbanded, and the Munitions Board was appointed, and, to say the least of it, I think the Government should have guarded themselves against appointing Mr. Henderson, the solicitor for Colonel Allison, to act as chairman of the committee of the court of appeal, in which Sir Joseph Flavelle, the chairman of the Munitions Board, is more particularly interested than any other person, as against the interests of the consuming public of this country. The Government instead of taking immediate action to mend the matters complained of, as affecting injuriously the consuming public, both in Canada and the allied countries, appoint this new commission for the purpose of inquiring into a matter which is entirely subsidiary and quite apart from the main finding in Mr. O'Connor's report. Mr. O'Connor found there was monopoly, undue profiteering, improper withholding from the public certain foodstuffs, and that the food business in respect of certain lines in this country, had got into the hands of companies that were exacting larger prices than other companies of a similar character dealing in the same quality of goods. The question as to the actual profits made by the William Davies Company on the bacon sold by them is not the most important question. The important question is that there is a monopoly, that there is profiteering, that there is undue enhancement of prices, and while the consumers of this country are still suffering under the disabilities and disadvantages arising from those conditions, this new commission of which Mr. Henderson is the chairman, is leisurely whiling its time away in the city of Toronto, and nothing is being done to relieve the situation as it presents itself to the consumer at this moment. The commission met to-day in the city of Toronto, pursuant to notice. I have a report of the transactions as published in

the Ottawa Journal to-day. It reads as follows:
Mr. Walter L. Breckells has been appointed secretary of the Commission.
The Commission consists of of Mr. Henderson, as I stated, and Mr. Brodie, and Mr. Clarkson, two accountants. The report proceeds:
No evidence was taken this morning and an 'adjournment was made, probably for two weeks, "pending reports on the examination of the packer's books.
There has been an ladjournmamt of two weeks, and inasmuch >as it took Mr. O'Connor .six 'months to get the information which enabled him to present the report which he h,as forwarded to the Government, what guarantee have we that the present Commission will complete the work in a shorter time? We will have a whole year gone by land nothing done, no .action taken to relieve the situation which Mr. O'Connor discloses. The Teport proceeds:
Mr. Louis Heyd, barrister, who said he represented the consumers, asked if Mr. Clarkson "was a member of the firm of Clarkson, Gordon and Dilworth, paid auditors of the books of the Wm. Davies Company.
Mr. Clarkson replied in the negative. Mr. Heyd said that he knew that Mr. Bain had the ability to conduct the investigation if he only had the inclination. Mr. Bain promptly replied that he had the inclination and a little more.
Mr. Heyd announced his immediate retirement when the chairman stated that Mr. Clarkson's old firm in which was the latter's father, had audited the company's books ten years ago. He said he had no desire to take further part in the investigation if there was any connection between a member of the commission and the William Davies Co.
I submit that under those circumstiances this is another incident which shows that another of the selections made by the Government an the matter of this Commission is mot the most fortunate one that could have been made. It may be argued that although the Clarkson Company 'audited the books of the Davies Company some ten years ago, that a representative of that company ought not to be prevented from acting on that Board. But I say that if there is an .accountant to be had who never had anything to do with the employment of the William Davies company, the Govern,menit should have sought him out and avoided this suspicion, which will go- abroad when the circumstances surrounding this appointment are made known. Mr. Tilley, who acted for the Davies Company, said he wanted an opportunity to criticise Mr. O'Connor's report .and the -means by which he arrived at his conclusion. Fancy ! They wanted to criticise the means by which Mr. [Mr. KyteO
O'-Connor arrived a)t his conclusion. The consuming people -of this country are not concerned as to the means by which he arrived at this -conclusion. Is it true that there is monopoly, profiteering, undue, prices charged to them and -that cold storage products are being kept in the warehouses for the purposes of speculation? These are the matters in which the -consumers of Canada are concerned, and upon that subject there is no controversy, and no denial. The report proceeds:
We would not have been here to-day, said Mr. Henderson, "if there had been more frankhess." He, however, pointed out that they were not investigating Mr. O'Connor, but were making an inquiry independent of the report."
So that whatever credit the Minister of Labour is entitled to for having appointed Mr. O'Oonn-OT to make a report upon the food -prices in Canada, that credit is immediately taken -aw-ay from him by the appointment, by his colleagues in the Government, of Mr. Henderson and two accountants who are going to proceed to have another inquiry, altogether. What -are Mr. Henderson and -his -accountants going to inquire -into, in which the public have any concern? They are not so much concerned in w-hait was the actual amount of -profits which this company obtained on the sale of products. That can as well be dealt with later as now. The o-rder in council does not disclose any other purpose for which the Commission was appointed. I have a copy of the order in council appointing this latter board of inquiry. It reads, in part:
The minister represents that returns have been made to him under such regulations by the William Davies Company, Limited, and Matthews-Blackwell, Limited, the first-named company being No. IX mentioned at page 30 of said sessional paper, and the second-named company being No. V also mentioned at said page 30, and that the said companies have taken exception to the said report so far as it concerns them.
It is because these two companies have taken exception to the report that this new commission has been appointed; the public who are concerned in the disclosures which Mr. O'Connor has made are not to be considered in the maltter at all. The order in council proceeds:
The minister considers that the circumstances disclosed by such returns and in said report which recommends further investigation of the dealings of the aforesaid companies justify such investigation and examination of the premises, books, papers and records of the said companies as is in and by said regulation No. 6 provided.

Then they proceed, under the terms of the ordler in council passed last November, to provide that the Commissioners shall investigate as follows:
(a) The amount of margin between the first cost to each of said dealers and the price ultimately realized on sale or disposal by each of said dealers; (b) the net profit; (c) the specific elements or factors which have conduced towards or which have operated to produce the difference found between such margin and such net profit, indicating the extent of the operation of each element or factor; also to recommend in writing to the Minister of Labour a standardized system of costs accounting applicable to the business of cold storage, from the operation of which system the net profits of cold storage companies within Canada may from time to time be readily ascertained.
Not a word of authority is issued to this commission by this order in council to inquire into or to verify Mr. O'Connor's assertion that there is monopoly, that there is profiteering, that there is undue profit, that there is undue withholding of food products from the public for purposes of speculation. All these considerations are thrown to the winds; the report which was prepared so laboriously and so completely by Commissioner O'Connor is thrown into the discard until another report shall (have been made by a more favourable court, upon which the Government may or may not take action, according as the spirit may move them when the proper time comes.
This is not the first time, Mr. Speaker, that the people have been handed out a gold brick in respect to legislation, taxes, and conditions which bear unfairly upon the consuming public. Take for instance, the excess profits tax. A great deal of credit was claimed by the Finance Minister a couple of years ago when he imposed his business profits war tax. It was pointed out by members on this side that that tax would, in the final analysis, be paid not by the company, but by the consumer. We know that the dividends of these companies increased enormously in the years 1915 and 1916 after the business profits war tax had been levied. The companies, by reason of the increased prices which they have exacted from the Canadian consumers, are able to pay the business profits war tax without suffering any loss. As a matter of fact, their dividends, after they deduct the business profits war tax from their earnings, are greater now than they were before that tax was imposed. The same thing is true with regard to the imposition of the increased tariff of 71 per cent in the session of 1915. It was pointed out that while a
limited amount of revenue would be obtained from the imposition of this increased tariff, what the Government would receive would not be at all comparable with the increased profits which the manufacturers would exact from the consumers of Canada by reason of their ability to add 7ipc. to their prices. In that respect the consumer, no person else, pays the tax. The tax upon patent medicine, banks, the .taxes levied upon railway corporations-ail these have come down to the consumer. If a person goes into a drag store to-day to buy a bottle of proprietary medicine, in addition to the price which he otherwise would pay, he has to pay two cents war tax. So that the poor man who buys the proprietary medicine is the one who pays the war tax, not the merchant or .any other person who handles that medicine from the point of manufacture to the point of retail distribution.
*I will refer to page 35 of Mr. O'Conhor's report. He says:
The quantity of bacon sold by company No. IX was approximately, in 1913, 85,000 pounds at a margin of 3.63 cents per pound; in 1914, 14,000,000 pounds at a margin of 3.6 cents per pound; in 1915 nearly 60,000,000 pounds at a margin of 3.67 cents per pound, and in 1916 nearly 100,000,000 pounds, at a margin of 5.05 cents per pound.
So .that as the war taxes were increasing, the margin and the profits were increasing in the treasury of the 'William Davies company. That illustrates what I pointed out a few moments ago: that the operations of the war tax levied by the Finance Minister have the effect of increasing the cost of the commodity to the consumer and the result to the company is that they earn larger dividends than ever before.
Another matter in which that part of the country from which I ooime is interested is the matter of salt. I called the attention of the Finance Minister a week or so ago to the great necessity that existed in the fishing communities of Nova Scotia for an adequate supply of ;salt. .The Minister Of Trade and Commerce then made ia statement to the House which went to show that the Government was unable to do anything. But the Government of Newfoundland was able to do something. From day to day the Government of Newfoundland are causing ships laden with salt to arrive in the fishing ports of Newfoundland, and the result is that the fishermen are able to cure their catch-a catch which has been larger and' more profitable to the fisherman than at any time in the colony's history.


George Green Foster: My hon. friend will find if he inquires-I think I stated so -that the Newfoundland people have got their salt -because they have paid the rate of freight that was asked. The Government did not pay any part of it.


George William Kyte: The fact is that the Government of Newfoundland took the matter in hand, and their fishermen have salt; the Government of Canada took the matter in hand, and the fishermen of Nova Scotia have no salt.


George Green Foster: The Government of Newfoundland took the matter in hand, but the British Admiralty proffered ships for this purpose and set the price of freight; no doubt the people paid that price, and got their salt. The Government of Canada took the matter up with the Admiralty. The Admiralty agreed to have the ships put at their disposal and placed a price upon the salt as to freight. As I understand it, the Canadian fishermen could not see their way clear to pay that freight; consequently they did not get their salt.


George William Kyte: The result is as I said: the Newfoundland Government got salt for their fishermen, but this Government failed to get salt for the' Canadian fishermen. When I -called the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to the matter in the House, he ended his remarks by saying. that the Government did not have -a peck of salt. The obvious rejoinder to this facetious remark on the part of the minister would be to say that the lack of salt probably accounts for the advanced condition of decay in which the Government finds itself. If it had more salt, it would be better preserved.
SiT GEORGE FOSTER: My hon. friend would require all the salt that is in the ocean to keep him sweet.


George William Kyte: If the necessity on my part for salt is in proportion to the ' freshness of the Government, I shall require a great deal.
There is another matter in which the j c.ople of this country are taking a more 01 less languid interest. Leading members of the Government have been in favour of a coalition, that is to say, a coalition Government with the "coal" out of it, by which I mean the fire, glow, power and masterful energy of my right hon. leader (Sir Wilfrid Laurier). I said the leading members of the Government are in favour of a coalition, because it is well known that the stars of lesser magnitude, whose light would

be extinguished by an equal number of Liberal members who would be brought in to take their places, are not wildly in favour of coalition. But, while the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance are beating the bush to find Liberals who can be led or driven into the Government, they are preparing the way for a "Win-the-War" Government which shall comprise both political parties, by filling the vacancies in another branch of this Parliament out of Conservatives of the deepest dye, principally recruited from the ranks of the supporters of the Government in this House. The people of this country are beginning to wonder whether or not all this question of coalition is really honestly meant and seriously intended. It appears to me at this time when, at all events, some people in this country have an open mind on this question-and I had an open mind on it until it was absolutely closed by the conduct of the Government in appointing their partisan supporters to all the vacancies in the Senate a few day? ago-if they wished actually to bring about a coalition of both political parties in order to form a Government to win the war, at least they would have shown their good faith by going "fifty-fifty" upon the appointments of senators instead of corralling all the appointments as they have done.


George Green Foster: We had to get a "fifty-fifty" first.


George William Kyte: What is the Government going to do about the O'Connor report? They have appointed another commission, Mr. Henderson, Mr. Clarkson and Mr. Brodie. These gentlemen are not authorized to deal with the matters in which the people are most seriously concerned. They are not authorized to deal with the indictment which has been presented by Commissioner O'Connor against the cold storage companies of Canada. It is of no consequence to say, except as an incident, what the actual profit of the William Davies Company has been. That can be dealt with in another way and at another time. The interest and concern at the present time of the people of this country is how they are going to get rid of this monopoly; how they are going to get the necessaries of life at least at as low a rate as the Allies are paying for them, after shipping them 3,000 miles across the ocean. 'They want to know when this profiteering is going to cease. The O'Connor report as regards these matters stands as it was delivered in this House on the 13th of July, and the people of this country will demand instant action from

the Government in order to remove the disabilities and the hardships from which, as ' Mr. O'Connor has informed this House and the country, the consumers of Canada are suffering at the present time.


Hon. T. W. CROTHERS (Minister of Labour) :: Mr. Speaker, an officer of my department having made a report on cold storage commodities, which report was laid on the Table, and two of the largest cold storage companies in Canada, with -whose products he dealt, having taken strong objections to his report, at his suggestion- contained in his report-and pursuant to clause 6 of the order in council passed last November, expert accountants have been appointed to inquire into the whole matter. Therefore, it is scarcely fair or proper to discuss this matter at this time, as it is really sub judice.


Mr. McKENZIE:: Another commission
will be right on the heels of this one. When are we going to discuss the question?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend referred to that the other day, and I pointed out to him the provisions of clause 6 of the order in council. He knows better than to speak about another commission; he knows .that clause 6 of the order in council provides for this further investigation, and the order in council, .as read iby my hon. friend from Richmond (Mr. Kyte) provided for ait, so that it is in vain to speak about more commissions inquiring into what the present further investigation may find.
I am very much surprised to see my hon. friend from Richmond, who is a lawyer, finding fault with the appointment of Mr. Henderson as one of these examiners. The only objection my hon. friend gives is that Mr. Henderson, last winter, when a similar investigation was being held by Mr. O'Connor in Ottawa, acted for one of the merchants interested. If that came from a man who never saw a lawyer or knew nothing about them, I should not be surprised, but my hon. friend knows as every lawyer knows, that the best lawyers of the country are on one side of a case to-day and the next day are taking up the other side of a similar transaction. He will find one of the "best lawyers in Toronto defending a notorious thief to-day and to-morrow he will find him prosecuting a notorious thief. For a lawyer to fiud fault with the appointment of Mr. Henderson as a member of this commission because he appeared before Mr. O'Connor last winter to see to it that a merchant of this city had an opportunity of getting all his evidence before
him, is to say the least of it, most extraordinary. My hon. friend's argument will have no weight with the intelligent people, lawyers and others, of this country.
My hon. friend said on more than one occasion that Mr. O'Connor had found that there was hoarding and excessive accumulation on the part of those cold storage companies for the purpose of holding cold storage commodities until they should rise in price. If he will look at page 62 of the report from which he has been reading, he will find these words:
I And that the operations of cold storage companies generally have been fairly conducted. There has been no illegal combination nor any excessive accumulation on the part of any company.
Notwithstanding the fact that my hon. friend had that statement before him, he repeated several times in this House this afternoon that Mr. O'Connor found that there was hoarding and excessive accumulation with a view to getting an enhanced price in the future. I need only refer to that to show how unreliable and untrustworthy many of the statements made by my hon. friend this afternoon really are,
His statements in many respects were not a fair representation of what Mr. O'Connor says in his report. He says that Mr. O'Connor found that there was a combination. Th,e truth is that Mr. O'Connor on the very first page says that " there is nothing like combination among the various companies. There is a very lively competition, instead." He found that theie was no combination, no hoarding and no excessive accumulation.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If it is .such an excellent report, why did the packers find fault with it.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am not speaking for the Davies Company. Again on page 5 Mr. O'Connor .said:
On the whole the operation of the cold storage companies have stood the test of investigation well. The profits per pound or per dozen of most of these companies have been small, and have not to any degree contributed to produce the very high prices prevailing.
The mistake my hon. friend from Richmond made, and it has been made by many, was in confusing margin and profits. This afternoon my hon. friend used the two words indiscriminately. Mr. O'Connor is very particular in his report to point out that he is not dealing with profits at all, but with margins.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is there any difference made in the report between gross profits and margins?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: In works on economies, and by expert accountants the word " margin " means the difference between the ooist price of an article and its selling price. In this particular case it would include the cost of cold storage, cost of delivery, overhead charges, etc. In the case of bacon delivered in Liverpool, for instance, the cost of delivery would be a very large item, especially at the present time when tonnage is so scarce. Mr. O'Connor points out in his report:
It is desirable that the precise meaning attached to the word "margin" in this report should be very carefully noted. It represents gross, not net, profit on the commodity from the time it is laid down, all costs and expenses paid, in the storage warehouse. The questionnaires sent out to the various companies to secure specific information on margins demanded sworn testimony as to (a) the quantity of each commodity purchased during the year; (b) the cost of such laid down in warehouses, including freight and unloading charges; and (c) the total quantity sold during the year and the total amount for which sold. The average cost prices and average selling prices were computed. The difference between these is the margin referred to. The margin represents, therefore, the cost of storing, losses, interest on investment, overhead charges, any other expenses incurred by the cold storage company from the time the commodity enters the warehouse until it reaches the persons to whom they sell and the cold storage company's profit. It is the total charge imposed on the food from the time it enters the cold storage house until it passes into the hands of grocers or wholesale dealers.
He therefore made it perfectly clear that he was not dealing with net profits at all.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Mr. Speaker, when the House rose at six o'clock, I was pointing out that Mr. O'Connor distinctly stated that he found no evidence of a combine in all his investigation of the 110 cold storage plants in Canada; that he found no evidence of hoarding or excessive accumulation, and that the management of the various cold storage plants in Canada had not materially contributed to the enhanced prices of cold storage commodities. He, himself, had in this Teport recommended that an expert accountant should be employed to make a further investigation to get the details of what he calls " margins."

He pointed out distinctly in his report that he was unable to ascertain what the net profits were until he had particulars of the margin, the margin including, in the case, of a cold storage plant, overhead charges; cost Oif delivery and cost of .selling the goods. In the case of bacon, about which there has been so much said, the margin includes the coat of delivery in Liverpool, a very important item. In reading Mr. O'Oomnor's report, you must bear in mind that he is not speaking of net profits; that it will be necessary to ascertain the particulars of these margins in order to find what the net profits were; and that he reeomr mends the appointment of 'an expert accountant for the purpose of ascertaining the details which he did not have to enable him to come to a fair conclusion.


Mr. MACDONALD:: Did not Mr. O'Connor have appointed what is known as a cost accountant purely for the purpose of ascertaining cost? There is a very great difference between a cost accountant and an auditing accountant.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The accountants we
have are not going to confine their operations to ascertaining the cost of these materials. The order in council requires them to ascertain the net profits amongst other things.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: That is impossible.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The net profits involve the particulars of the margin.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why has not the department, when the question of foodstuffs is so vital to the public, one or more cost accounts soi that the (commissioner would have their services at any time to investigate any one particular thing?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The commissioner does not really need an expert accountant in his daily work. He is a man who earned his own livelihood at one time as an accountant.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is, only as an accountant.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I did not say as an expert accountant, but he knows a great deal about accounting. The order in council, clause 6, provides for a further investigation when iwe receive the answers to our questionnaires. When advisable it confers power to authorize a man in, writing to make a detailed investigation on the ground, to examine witnesses under oath, if necessary, and to examine the books and so on. Mr. O'Connor, in this very report under dis-

cussion, recommended that expert accountants should be employed to complete the information which he had not received from the firms.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Did they refuse it?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: They either refused or failed to give the particulars. I think I stated that a few days ago. I am prepared to repeat what I said a few days ago. The first question of these questionnaires that was submitted to these men-


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is the information verified by affidavit?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes, verified by affidavit. Supposing it was bacon, ham, butter, eggs or any of those commodities, the first question required them to give the quantities they had on hand at a certain date, beginning with 1913 and then coming down through 1914, 1915 and 1916; the quantities bought and sold and the price at which they were bought and sold during the year. That brings us down to the end of 1916, and from that time forward we have been getting a monthly report from each, as. well as from the dealers of anthracite coal, sugar, cold storage commodities, canned goods and so on. The question requires them to state the quantities they had at the beginning of the month of each one of these commodities, and there is a column in which they are required to set down the cost of the material laid down in the cold storage warehouse including freight and unloading charges. The next question requires them to give the cold storage cost, the cost of delivery and overhead charges. In answer to the next question they are required to give the quantities sold for home consumption and the price, and the quantities exported and the price. They failed to answer that particular question as to cost in cold storage, overhead and delivery charges. They said they could not do it. As a matter of fact, they did it two or three days after this report was laid on the Table, as those who read the statement in the Citizen and other papers know.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: Is the minister satisfied they could not give that information?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Well, they gave it two or three days afterwards in the newspapers. You will have noticed that they gave particulars of the margin-the margin being the difference in the cost of buying and selling.	*


John Howard Sinclair: What is the explanation? Why did they refuse this information to your officer?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am not prepared to say why but they did not give it. Mr. O'Connor recommended in his report that an expert accountant be appointed to ascertain what the net profits really were. We have appointed for that purpose Mr. Brodie, the leading member of the firm of Price, Waterhouse and Company, and Mr. Clarkson, the senior member of the firm of Clarkson, Dilworth and Company, accountants of Toronto. They are both firms of national reputation. I have no doubt they will make a thorough investigation and give a report which will command the confidence of the whole people. I am not here for the purpose of defending the William Davies Company but I am here for the purpose of seeing in so far as possible that the report made by Mr. O'Connor is not misrepresented. I am anxious that the whole of the evidence should go in. I had in my mind, when .the order in council was passed last November, the idea that if we got these statements under oath for the four years and from month to month afterwards it would be a great check on business and would go a long distance to prevent any undue enhancing of prices. I have great confidence in publicity. I believe the work of the department has done a great deal in that direction already. This report will do a great deal to keep profits down to where they ought to be. We are continuing to get reports every month and we expect to continue on that line.
The hon. member for Richmond pointed out that according to Mr. O'Connor, with the smaller dealers, the margin did not rise as rapidly as it did with the William Davies Company for instance. That is very easily explained. The small dealers were not exporting their stuff to Liverpool. Any one who knows anything about the condition of trade knows that ocean freight rates have gone up by leaps and bounds during the last year or two.
It costs eight, times as much to transport sugar from Cuba to Montreal as it did before the war. I do not know what the proportion is for the carrying of bacon across the Atlantic, but it is reasonable to suppose that the ocean freight has risen very rapidly, and that would tend to widen the spread or margin between cost and delivery price in Liverpool.
It was said that some statements which I made on the 4th June were in conflict with Mr. O'Connor's report. Nothing can be further from the fact than such a statement. I was then combatting an argument made by the hon. member for Kent (Mr. McCoig) that because this company- as was stated in a telegram which the hon.

member had received, which was subsequently denied by the president of the company-had endeavoured to insure $2,000,000 worth of commodities in their cold storage warehouse, therefore there was excessive storage and hoarding. I then gave the figures for several months back and demonstrated that the company were buying and selling $3,000,000 worth per month, so that, even if the statement contained in the telegram had been true, the quantity mentioned would have represented the buying and selling of that company for only half a month. I did not deal with margins, profits or prices. Mr. O'Connor, in the last words of his report, said that he found no evidence of a combine or of hoarding or of excessive .accumulation. Thus there was no conflict between my statements and Mr. O'Connorjs findings.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Would the minister tell me where Mr. O'Connor makes that recommendation of further investigation?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: On page 4. He there says:
Nor have I omitted to check the returns as to exports by the customs figures, nor to check those given from time to time as to domestic sales by examination of the actual invoices of purchasers, extraneously obtained. Further, in response to many suggestions from such companies that I personally attend and examine their books, I have caused it to be known that in due course an expert accountant will in all likelihood attend for this purpose. You will be aware that I have already recommended such action, for the purpose of verification and especially of securing an accurate computation of the profits upon by-products. I make the preceding statements to justify the claim that the figures hereinafter appearing may be ac-. cepted as highly reliable.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Mr. Speaker, the real purpose of this discussion is to ascertain whether or not the Government took the proper action on the O'Connor report. The contents of that report were of such a character that the Government should have taken action on it at once. What was the O'Connor report for? It was the report of a commission appointed by this Government, not for the purpose of amusement or of juggling with figures, but', surely, with a view to bringing about improvement in existing conditions. Shortly after this Government came into- power I heard the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) inform a delegation that the Government was the physician of the nation. I did not think it was a very bad thing for the nation to have a physician, provided they had the right kind, a man who
fMr. Crothers.l
was capable of making a proper diagnosis and afterwards applying the proper remedies. Shortly after this I said in the House that this Borden Government physician should never have passed an examining board and should never have been licensed to practise in this country; that it had never shown any evidence of ability to prescribe for the nation.
If this O'Connor Commission had any purpose whatever it was to diagnose-the condition of the country in relation to prices. The patient whom the Government was called upon to diagnose and treat was the ordinary consuming public who have to live on what little earnings they can make. After a great deal of bombardment from this side of the House, without any action by the ministers, after it had been stated by them that-the investigation would be perfectly senseless-that it would be like trying to stop the tide in the Bay of Fundy to try to do anything to regulate prices- they at last went through the formality of appointing a commission. One of the commissioners was Mr. O'Connor, who was sent to make a diagnosis of the poor people who were very sick because prices were so high that they were not able to purchase proper food. Dr, O'Connor brings in a diagnosis and prescribes to his druggist, the Minisr ter of Labour, that certain things should be done, certain medicines should be given to these profiteers that would make them give more reasonable prices. The ordinary person, having received such a prescription from his physician would use it in the hope that some remedy would avail.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Yes, just as if a diagnostician recommends a further diagnosis to get further information.


Mr. MACKENZIE:: Yes, just as if a diagnostician or a doctor had said:	You will
give the patient this medicine just now, and on the third day you can give him something else. Instead of going on with the prescription and doing something to relieve the patient, whose fever was up to 103 or 104, whose" condition was likely to call, not for a doctor hut for an undertaker unless something was done, what did the great physician at the head of the department say? He said, "Dr. O'Connor, -we must not act upon your prescription."


Thomas Wilson Crothers: But we did act upon it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: He said, "Doctor, we called you in, you have passed .the board, and you are part of the machinery we are

providing as physicians lor the nation; nevertheless, although I am not -a doctor, and I did not do anything to prescribe for the people, <we must not act upon your diagnosis, and your prescription must not be carried out


Thomas Wilson Crothers: But we did act.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The learned doctor at
the head of the Government said to the patient, whose -condition was as I have described, "My dear fellow, you are very bad, Doctor O'Connor has prescribed for you, it is true, but I understand that within three months there is going to 'be a gathering in Toronto of the medical fraternity for the whole of the people of Canada, we will wiait until we submit Dr. O'-Connor's diagnosis -and -prescription to the gathering of the medical association. Th-ey may possibly -tell us whether or not you will be benefited by his prescription. Yo.u -may die in the-meantime, but nevertheless, that is the course we are going to take". That is exactly the position in which they find themselves. Mr. O'Connor is called in, and makes a report. He says that certain things shall be done for the alleviating of the present conditions, so that th-e fishermen, or lumbermen, or farmers will be able to make -a hundred cents earn as much as possible. All that suggestion is thrown to the winds, -an-d we are to wiait until' it suits the heads of those great concerns -such as Sir Joseph Flavelle, to come down from their mighty positions and give us the evidence which -he thinks will- bear out his contention, an-d let the p-oior men -and wio-m-en, who -are looking for something to feed their children, go to the dogs. Who cares? They do not count for -much. They may not -have votes, and we are -going to bring in a new Franchise Bill which will put them all through the mill, and if they are doubtful, they will be thrown in' the waste, and make effective any opinion they may -have about our conduct. Sir Joseph is an important factor, although the Minister of Labour may not care very much about him; but there is -a " Minister of Elections," and ho requires certain funds, and it -must not be forgotten that when Sir Joseph Flavelle is called upon for a contribution, it can be put to him that he had things pretty much his own way. A moment ago we were told by the Minister of Labour that certain questions were put to Sir Joseph Flavelle -as the head of the Davies Company. I do not know whether the " Davies," whose name is mentioned, cuts any figure or not. I do not know whether he is alive or not. It may be the
name o-f an old firm. However, we know that Sir Joseph Flavelle is the head and front of the whole business, and with him we have to reckon. The hon. Minister of Labour is -a lawyer of distinction, in practice for many years; and he knows, as well as he knows anything about the practice of the Court,- that interrogatories are sent out to the defendant, or to a witness in the ordinary lawsuit, which are exactly the same thing as those questionnaires the Govern

men#%re sending out. If a witness answers an interrogatory under oath in a certain way, that is the end of it as far as that trial is concerned. That witness will never be permitted to change that answer. In this mat, ter a question was s-ent to -Sir Joseph Flavelle, asking:	What are your overhead
expenses? What is the difference between your gross cost and your net co-st, or your gross profit and net profit? According to the minister, lie answered: I do not know;
I cannot tell. According to every rule, in every proper court of inquiry in the country, Sir Joseph Flavelle is held to answer that he does not know. He cannot change it.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Perhaps it would not be quite fair to deal with Sir Joseph Flavelle personally. These questionnaires were sent to the limited liability companies, and the affidavit in this case was made by the manager of the company and not by Sir Joseph Flavelle.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The manager is the spokesman for the . company and swears for the company, and, according to the minister, he swears that they cannot answer those questions. Mr. O'Connor went on without this information. He did everything he could to obtain it, but never got it. J[ am told he compared their overhead expenses with the everyday expenses of others, the only thing he could do. They refused to give him the information, and he used the information of other people in the same business, in the same locality, dealing in provisions similar to those which Sir Joseph Flavelle dealt in; and, basing his calculations upon this information, he reaches a certain conclusion. I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the people of this country, that if ever any action was to be taken upon this report that would be beneficial to the masses of the people, it should be taken without the slightest hesitation, or without the slightest further consideration for any company which refuses to give the information when requested to do so. The minister, speaking in this House on the 20th July, said that it was only a day

or two after the report of Mr. O'Connor was laid upon the Table that abundance of information was sent broadcast in the press. If this company, through their medium, swears that they had no information and could not get it on one day, and the next day give us abundance of information, in the ordinary case that would be perjury. If a man one day swears he has not the information, and refuses to give it, and gives it abundantly the next day, in ordinary parlance that is perjury.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I do not think the hon. gentleman wants to be unfair to anybody, but I do not think he is quite fair in this matter. I am not concerned with anything except to get out the facts, but it is hardly fair to the company to say that in a day or two the information wras sent broadcast. I think it was some weeks between the time they failed to give this information and the time it was published broadcast, as the hon. gentleman states.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I meant a day or two between the time the O'Connor report was laid on the Table and made public and the furnishing of the information in the newspapers. I think that is what the hon. gentleman said.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I thought you said, from the time they refused to give it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There was a few days between the time the report was laid on the Table and the time this information appearing in abundance in the press.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I 'think tbait is right.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If I were 'addressing a jury upon evidence of that kind I would tell them, if jt was in my interests to do so, that those people had suppressed the evidence for improper purposes, and that when they did give i/t, no attention should be paid to 'it-that they were liars from the beginning; they were not to be believed; no weight should be given to their evidence.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: As a judge, my hon. friend would not, I am sure, put it that way to tlhe jury.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: A judge would have to tell the jury 'this: This witness has sworn that he does not know anything, iand he has already sworn that he knows something. It is for you to say, gentlemen; it is a question of fact; the credibility of the witness is a question for you, and I leave it to you. When my hon. friend goes on the bench that is wbait he will have to tell the jury 
in a ease of that kind, and I assure him that his ruling and direction will be sustained by the Supreme Court.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: 
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If I put it in any other way I should be misdirecting them and their verdict would not stand. No litigant who behaved as the Flavelle Company behaved in Mr. O'Oonnor's investigation would ever be allowed to come forward with fresh evidence. They bad their opportunity; they were given these ques-tionaires to answer; they swore that they bad given tall the information they bad. Then 'they sat back to see what the commissioner would do. They 'hoped that he would say: I cannot make out a full report as far as these people are concerned; I have not the necessary data. But Mr. O'Connor is a keen lawyer. He did the very best he could. He took parallel cases, and, using the evidence that he gathered in these parallel cases, he made a final report as to what the profits were. Then the howl came; then came the rush, like that of the Gadarene swine, to the Government. They said; "We have nothing to do with this man; away with him; crucify him ! Give us an absolutely new court; this objection which may be clearly urged against ns will not apply to a new court. We have no right to come into Mr. O'Connor's court; we have barred ourselves from it; there is no law of evidence or practice by which we can come in. Give us a new court, and we will come in with the new evidence." Whatever may be said about judges and lawyers, they have the best and clearest system of making inquiries or investigations of this kind. I repeat that once a litigant refuses to give certain evidence he cannot come into court and make use of that information. But even if the company had thrown up their hands and said: We do possess the information; we are willing to give you the evidence to complete Mr. O'Connor's report-what should have been done? The minister should have told Mr. O'Connor: Open your court; take in these witnesses; withhold the report that you are about to make or make a supplementary report; take this evidence down, and then make your report accordingly. Surely that is what would have been done in any inquiry being carried on in a judicial way. Evidence was required on only one point, as to the difference between the gross profits

and the net profits. Surely that is a matter of only very short inquiry. Mr. O'Connor says, pages 31 and 32:
No specific data is given upon the point of storage costs, because it is believed that a special investigation is required into the value of the by-products of meat, and that some compulsorily applicable cost accounting system of storage and other costs on specific commodities should be established. The present fetorage charges are such as are arbitrarily fixed by the different companies and levied against their commodities. The existing intricate system of storage charging can best be 'investigated at the same time, and possibly a legal scale of charges can thereafter be established. The project of providing such an expert examination is under way.
That does not mean that a new court is necessary under a- new order in council, and a new investigation beginning at the very foundation of things. The minister tells us that Mr. O'Connor suggests the constituting of this new commission. I do not think that Mr. O'Connor's words can be understood in that way. He simply says that an inquiry should be made into one single phase of the question and that the project of providing such expert examination is under way; that is, an examiner is being appointed by his own department. When that portion of evidence was furnished, the whole thing was complete; that was an end of it. I cannot agree with the course now taken by the Government. They are throwing away entirely the six months' labour of this faithful servant of the Labour Department. They are discrediting his report, saying that it cannot be accepted ais arriving ait 1a true conclusion'. Accordingly, a new court is established, which will start all over again. The minister objected strongly this afternoon to my even suggesting that the matter would be kept indeterminately in the air by the^ holding of one investigation on top of another. I rnusit confess that that is what iit looks like. If the person who is affected by an investigation howls somewhat loudly when the report comes in, a new commission is appointed and from six to nine months' respite is given to the offender, who can go about without even seeking one dollar of bail. .
I suppose the Minister of Labour did not know that a judicial inquiry had been promised in this matter. We discussed this subject on the night of July 20, and the next morning a dispatch was published over the signature of the Prime Minister promising a judicial investigation.
Ordinarily speaking, one would expect a judicial investigation to be an investigation. held by a judge. It may net be that.
The minister shakes his head as much as to say that it does not require a judge. That is just what I wanted him to do. Mr. O'Connor is just as good a lawyer as Mr. Henderson every day in the week, and, in making, that statement, I do not detract in the slightest degree from Mr. Henderson's ability as a lawyer. I know nothing about his ability, but it does not disrespectfully compare or diminish the ability of any lawyer in Ontario to compare his ability with that of Mr. O'Connor as a practising barrister. If Mr. Henderson's investigation is a judicial inquiry simply because a lawyer is presiding over it, what sort of an inquiry is that held by Mr. O'Connor? Is not the one just as judicial as the other?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The word "judicial" is not confined to a judge or a lawyer. The broader meaning of the word "judicial" is thorough, impartial, discriminating.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Therefore, an officer
appointed by my hon. friend was indiscriminating, partial and unfair? Is that the testimonial that the minister gives his officer, Mr. O'Connor?-


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That does not follow at all.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: -he was not fair; he was not impartial; he was not discriminating-


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That will not go down at all.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: -therefore, we will get Mr. Henderson who will be fair, who will be discriminating, who will be judicious,- I am sorry that the Minister of Labour cannot possibly keep my good friend Mr. O'Connor in the service, according to the testimonial that he gives him to-night, and that the minister must go outside for that excellent quality of fairness which he requires in officials. If we are having a judicial inquiry now, we had a judicial inquiry before, and if the only evidence of termination of this matter is that we are having a judicial inquiry now, that termination is not a particle closer than it was when Mr. O'Connor started out on his investigation six months ago. The Henderson commission adjourned to-day for two weeks. I fear that the young ones amongst the thousands of poor people in this country who are looking for more bacon, more flour, more of the good things of this earth to eat, will be in their little coffins before we get any remedy or relief from the Department of Labour.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Does my hon. friend
think it quite fair simply to say that there was an adjournment for two weeks without telling the whole of the matter, namely, that the adjournment was to permit the two expert accountants to examine the books? Does not my hon. friend think, .in fairness, he should have, added that?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What is the good 'of
the questionnaires? What is the good of the sworn testimony of those men? That is where the trick comes in; that is how this thing can go on interminably. There is no trouble in the world to send men to examine the books if further delay is required. The minister, a month or so ago, told us at great length about the extreme care that he took in getting replies by means of those [DOT] questionnaires, and explained that people were obliged to swear to their answers. If I were in the minister's place and were looking for remedy and relief for the suffering masses of this country whom I was representing, I would draw the line at the information I received in reply to those questionnaires, and I would act upon the information I received in that way and the decision based upon it by my officer, to the relief of my people. If the other" side was not satisfied, I would leave it for them to propound and work out their remedy against [DOT]my_ action the best way they could, and I would not let my .people suffer and give those men carte blanche to go on as long as they liked, and, with the outfit they have chosen themselves, to prolong this investigation indefinitely until perhaps the war is over and conditions have changed altogether. There is no justification for the course the minister has taken. The O'Connor report should have been acted upon. The people expect the minister to act upon it. And there is something the Government could do to better .the conditions of things if they wanted' to do so. If anyone reads the discussion that took place in this House on the 20th of July, as appears on pages 3798, 3799 and 3800 of Hansard, between the Minister of Labour, the bon. member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean), the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) and myself, he will see that everything that has been stated here to-night as to the reasons for Mr. O''Connor's report being delayed, etc., is absolutely clear and fair, and that not a word' is added to what was said at that time by the minister.
The Minister of Labour, in his remarks before six o'clock, wanted the House and the country to understand that Mr. O'Oon-
[Mr: McKenzie.]
nor found things all right and that, he found fault with nothing. In one place the minister finds Mr. O'Connor judicious and fair, and in other places he finds himself under the, necessity of constituting another court because Mr. O'Cannor was not judicious nor fair. Perhaps he was not judicious and fair when he said, in the second paragraph of his conclusions:
Individual instances of profiteering occurred during the year 1916. These I have already identified. If they had occurred during the present year, since the provision of the Order in Council under which I am acting in the making of these investigations, I would consider it my duty to recommend that the facts be laid before the proper attorney general for his consideration as to their criminality.
That is a very sweeping statement from an officer appointed by the Department of Labour to make <a fair report, and I am sure he made a fair report. What was Mr. O'Connor looking for? He was not looking for the ordinary class of thefts; he was looking for dealings in 'the commodities, of life in this country, and he finds that bacon, flour .and - butter were sold in Canada at such prices that the transactions were of a criminal character, .and he hands that report to the Minister of Labour, who is the guardian angel of the labouring classes. This guardian 'angel, instead of acting on that report, calls in another tribunal, and he is waiting to take 'action until, so to say, the medical association passes. judgment on the diagnosis of Dr. O'ConnoT, who has told him that the conditio as desperate, and that immediate action is necessary. If there ever was a case of the doctors differing .and the patient dying, it is the case before the minister, 'and in this case he refuses to take any action.
The report is a public document and the people know all about it, but everybody except the minister is willing to take action upon it. If the minister 'bad a' free hand I. believe he would do something, but there are people higher up to whom he has to submit his conduct, and the Prime Minister-to whom I rdfex as the party higher up-without, I venture ito think, consulting . the minister, sends a telegram that another investigation will take place.
That investigation, of course, has to come about before the minister is permitted to glo anything. Following his usual go-as-you-please plan, the Minister of Labour will not go to them unless they come to him. So we shall have a condition of "stand easy" between the report of the committee and the taking of action upon it. I suppose the minister will say when they come

to him with a report, "I will do nothing at all. This is my turn for sulks. .1 had a report.j.before you and you would not let me do anything upon it. Now, if you are ready to work, I am not. You can go ahead and see this thing carried through the 'best way you know how now." The minister may say that we on this side of the House are unfair and unreasonable and have no business to ask that anything should be done. Let that be so'. But there is some evidence which I shall give to the minister to which that criticism will not apply. I have here in my hand clippings from newspapers in the province of Ontario. The first is from the Toronto Telegram, which says:
Ontario Conservatives will either see to it that Sir Robert Borden divorces his party from the very appearance of sympathy with the heaping up of war-time profits from the traffic in food products, OR an outraged people will divorce these Ontario Conservatives from their seats in Parliament.
I believe the Telegram was baptized in the same church and has taken the same sacraments, politically, as my hon. friend the Minister of Labour. He therefore cannot find fault with the orthodoxy of the evidence. Now comes a still better and more orthodox witness, the Toronto Mail and Empire, and I am sure the minister will accept this witness without his being sworn. The Toronto Mail and Empire says:
Each instalment of Commissioner O'Connor's report strengthens the case for official control of cold-storage In Canada. There is no evidence of a combine, as the charges made by different companies for the same service vary greatly. But the business is in so few hands that combination could easily be effected. As a matter of fact two or three companies handle so much of the trade in certain products that the Commissioner uses the word monopoly. The proportion of the meats, butter, eggs, and cheese exported or sold for domestic consumption that goes through the cold-storage process is so great as to surprise the public. Coming at a time when the cost of foodstuffs is pinching all but the wealthy, the O'Connor report has touched a sore spot, and raised an outcry which the Government cannot fail to hear.
People are In no mood to tolerate the making of fortunes or excessive profits out of the sale of the necessaries of life. They are disposed, with reason, to make less allowance for middlemen than for actual producers of food. The excess profits tax.is designed to take for public use a large portion of any business earnings above the normal rate, but it does not, at the best, prevent a flourishing business from making wealth for -its owners. This ought not to he possible in the handling or preparing of foodstuffs in this time of scarcity and privation. A Canadian policy of food control should be fearless, and should compel cold-storage companies and similar agencies to subordinate private to public interest during the crisis of the war. The cold-storage companies should
regard themselves for the present as stewards of the people, performing the national and patriotic service which it is in their power to render. They should be part of the war organization of the country.
Another Conservative paper, the Toronto News, says;	_
The Daily News is strongly opposed to that form of unregulated competition which makes the plundering of the common people a possibility. Monopoly has been curbed in the past. It can he curbed again. Speculation in food products has been stopped in the past. It can be stopped again.
The News says a great deal more than that, but that is the sum and substance of it. These are all strong Conservative papers, and surely the minister will believe they are talking in the best interests of the people and in the best interests of the Government when they say that this thing has gone as far as it should go, and that action should now be taken on behalf of the people. 'When action is taken, if the profiteers and monopolists and trusts and combines have any answer to put up, they should go before the courts of the country; that is the time, and that is the only further opportunity that should be given them.
I submit that action should be taken on the O'Connor report at once, or at least as soon as the only evidence which Mr. O'Connor says was necessary to enable him to complete his report is available. Immediately upon that, proper action should be taken for the relief of the people, if relief is to be given at all. The minister may say, and it has been said by different ministers, that nothing can be done. If they had stuck all the time , to' that, people might have believed them; hut, taking newsprint as a case in point, it is no more difficult to cut down the price of potatoes or pork than of newsprint; it is simply a matter of arriving at a figure and saying that that shall be the price and nothing higher, as was done in the case of newsprint. The only difference is that the thousands of poor women and children who are going to the grocery stores in this country have no pull, have no newspaper, have no lash over the head of the Government, and consequently they have to take the little they can get for their money. The newspapers had a lash over the Government,
9 p.m. and when they applied for relief the Government with fear and trembling did quickly exactly what the newspapers wanted them to do. But the Government must not forget that a day of reckoning is coming, a day when the labouring man, the miner, the lumberman, the


Frank Oliver: 
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, I think the House and country will agree that we owe a debt of gratitude to my hon. friend from Richmond (Mr. Kyte) for thd very clear analysis which he made of the report of Mr. O'Connor and for the facts gathered from that report, [DOT]which he placed before us in such a clear and succinct manner. We sometimes forget the perspective of the man who is earning his living and with whom the burden of existence is ever present. With respect to the item of bacon, which enters into the home life of every man in this country, we have to-day the fact- that in the city of Toronto a person who buys a piece of bacon must pay 52 cents a pound. I make that statement in accordance with what we were told in this House last Wednesday by the hon. member for South York (Mr. Maclean). For over six months, and ever since this Parliament assembled, hon. gentlemen on this side have been pressing on the Government their duty to take up in a most drastic way this question of the cost of living. The hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Crothers) told us about these wonderful questions which were sent out and about this wonderful order in council, under which no prosecution ever has been suggested or initiated, although we have the statement here by his own Commissioner that illegal conditions have arisen under which the criminal laws should be enforced.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I do not think the commissioner says that.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Well, he says something pretty near that.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: He says that if this had occurred since the passage of the order he would have referred it to the Attorney General.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: He says that individual instances of profiteering occurred during 1916, and he goes on to say that if
the order in council had (been in force then criminal proceedings would have been taken. Within his report there is evidence which goes to show that there were transactions in regard to which prosecutions should have been initiated. My hon. friend kept on talking about this order in council and about this commissioner, whom he has had at work for the past six months and whose report he proposed getting some day, while every statement that he issued to the public indicated that the cost of living was going up. While orders; in council were being passed but were not enforced, and while investigations were going on which were not concluded, prices continued to soar. Finally my hon. friend comes down to. the. House with a report by his commissioner in which certain definite, findings are made. Without going into the details with regard to every article, let us take what he says in regard to the question of bacon. My bon. friend gives to this report his own imprimatur when he declares that this report comes from him, and that it has been submitted to Parliament as containing statements which are true. We find on page 30 of this report that a certain firm bought 65,000,000 pounds of bacon and sold
97,000,000 pounds, in round figures, at a margin of 5-05 cents per pound.
The commissioner, in order to get this information, asked those engaged in the business to tell, first, the quantity of each commodity purchased during the year; second, the cost of such commodity laid down in warehouse, including freight and unloading 'charge, 'and, third, the total quantity sold during the year 'and the total antmnt for which .sold. We gathered from the report that the William Davies Company, 'mentioned as No. 9 in this report, gave him the information called for by questions A iand C, but declined to answer question B. I iask my hon. friend if the iMuttheWiS-Blackwell company gave that information.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Speaking from memory, I think they did.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Did the other firms give the information?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I think, generally
speaking, they did.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: As a .matter of fact, did molt evfery firm ex\cept the William Davies company answer these questions?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am not prepared to answer that.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Will the minister give ua to-morrow the Matthews-Blackwell company's statement in answer to question B, which the Wiliam Davies company did nott answer?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I think likely .it is in this report; if if is not I will give it to you.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I want to point out the extreme importance of the point I am endeavouring to make. The William Davies company gave to the minister, through his commissioner, this information, which is found on page 30 of this report, but they did not give him the information which would have enabled the country to have obtained all of this information without the second commission. They refused to give him the information which the minister says the Matthews-Bliackwell and other people furnished. If the Davies company had given .this information in answer to question B we would have had all the facts, and Air. O'Connor could have given us, beyond the shadow of a doubt, exactly the amount which the William Davies company made, because he has given to us the amount which M'atthews-BLackwell made, as he had the information relating to their , case. Matthews-Blaickwell's statement is given .as No. 5 on page 30. Their margin was 3.65, whereas by the application of the same figures that were applied in Matthewis-Blackwell case, Where you add the cost of storage and the cost of delivery, which the Davies Company did not give, we find that the William Davies company made 5.05 cents profit, or nearly 2 cents ia pound more than than Matthews-Black wel 1 did'on their sales. Mr. O'Connor goes on to tell us wb^at the margin is.
The just character of a margin on any commodity is dependent upon (1) the expenses incurred in 'storing, handling and selling such commodity, (2) the demand for the commodity for export and for home consumption, and (3) the general condition of the market, so far as it affects replacement values. Storage handling and selling costs have risen somewhat but they are comparatively a fixed non-fluctuating charge.
Mr. O'Connor was able to make that statement because Matthews-Blackwell and several others of the storage people had given 'him the figures. He goes on to>
say:
No specific data is given upon the point of storage costs, because it is believed that a special investigation is required into the value of the by-products of meat, and that some compulsorily applicable cost accounting system of storage and other costs on specific commodities should he established.
What is the. significance of that statement? It is that Mr. O'Connor tells us

that, applying the Matthews-Blackwell figures, the William Davies company Charged over li cents or nearly 2 cents a pound more for the same thing than Matthews-Blackwell charge, and which are included in their figures, 3.65. We have further this fact, that what Mr. O'Connor recommended was not a commission such as this Government has appointed, but a cost accountant who could go to the William Davies company and, by reason of his experience in cost accounting, get the exact figures which they had refused to give, although Mr. O'Connor had received them from these other people. What is the difference between an auditing accountant and a cost accountant? Every one having experience in business knows that an auditing accountant is one who examines the books kept by the accountant or secretary of a company to see whether the proper charges are made, whether the accounting is done properly and whether the profit and loss account has been correctly worked out He never gets behind what is on the books. But the function of a cost accountant is to go into every detail connected with the cost of production. That is entirely apart from the question whether the William Davies company's books were properly carried on by their clerks. The man who is paying 52 cents for bacon, is not interested in that problem, but he is interested in what their pork cost them and what price he is called on to pay for it in the finished state. Mr. O'Connor has given us what they paid for it, and what they got for it. He has received information, according to the minister-who has promised to give it us tomorrow-of what Matthews-Blackwell had to pay for cost of storing and for the. intermediate handling, which would enter into the difference between the price they paid and the price they received.
'The William Davies company had it but they did not give it. Why did not the minister, under the plenary powers which, if he did net possess them, could have been conferred upon him under the War Measures Act, before Mr. O'Connor's report was given to the pujblic, exercise those rights, and why did not he demand from Davies, and compel him to furnish the information which Matthews-Blackwell and the other men furnished? But the minister did not do that. He employs a dost accountant to get the information they would not give, but which the other people did give. Mr. O'Connor says:
Likewise as to the more aggravated, because continuous, exaction of excessive profits by an-

other firm, on bacon; aside from the matter of legality, is this sort of thing to be considered respectable?
My hon. friend the Minister of Labour, without going to the trouble of sending for the cost accountant to get the information which, he ought to- have got, gives this country the report of Mr. O'Connor. He seems to be excusing Mr. O'Connor, and yet he puts his imprimatur on Mr. O'Connor's report. Either Mr. O'Connor has told us what is true, or he has told us what is not true. If he has told us what is not true, he should be dismissed; and if he has told what is true, then the minister has been derelict in his duty because he did not apply the cost accountant and get the missing data which Davies did not give him, and which Matthews-Blackwell and the others gave. If he had got that information the country would have known whether there was profiteering or abnormal profits in the storage of bacon or not. But the minister gives this report to the public, which the public are bound to accept as correct, and which, I am sure, the minister does not question, even now. I asked the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden) the other day in regard to this matter, whether in dealing with this proposition and the appointment of this commission, he intended to reflect in any way upon Mr. O'Connor. The minister (Mr. Cro-thers) shakes his head; and agrees with that position. If that is so, where do we stand? We stand in this position; that bacon from the retail stores of this country costs 52 cents a pound; that Mr. O'Connor has reported, replying to the intermediate question, the data which he had from Matthews-Blackwell, as to the cost; and he tells us that this concern is making 5.05 a pound upon every pound of bacon which they sold.


Mr. WRIGHT:: Does the Matthews-
Blackwell admit the margin of 3.65?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I think so.
Mr. WRI'GHT:	I do not think so.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: My hon. friend has
not seen the report.


William Wright: The statement published in the newspapers disparaged that statement of 3.65 on bacon, just as much as the statement that Davies made 5.05 is disparaged.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: My hon. friend has
not followed the point.


William Wright: The hon. gentleman has been making accusations against the Davies company,' basing it on the assumption that Matthews-Blackwell made ,a profit of 3.65. Matthews-Blackwell repudiate that.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: They cannot repudiate it in view of the statement of the minister.


William Wright: They have repudiated it in the newspapers.	.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: This was under oath. Look at page 30 of the report.


William Wright: 1 have studied it as
much as the hon. gentleman has.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: 
Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes. I think you will find in his report that Matthews-Blackwell reported two cents as the margin, and Mr. O'Connor expressed the opinion that they * made a mistake, and that it must be more than that. Does that not appear in the report?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Yes. If Matthews-Blackwell were correct in the figures which they gave to Mr. O'Connor, it is only a question of computation.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: He says it is not
enough.
"Mr. MACDONALD: It is only a question of ordinary arithmetic. If these figures in the report are correct, then 3.65 was the margin. Then there is the question of the intermediate point upon which the William Davies company did not give .the information. That is the only thing, with the exception of the by-products, that O'Connor wanted further information upon. He had it from all the others. He applied to the William Davies company, and said, " According to those statements: you make 5.05 cents, and let us have a cost accountant." And the minister, instead of having a cost accountant and ascertaining the whole matter, as

he could in a week, proceeded, unquestionably for political purposes, to appoint a commission, which will go peregrinating around the country two or three months, as the other commissions have done. In the meantime the price of bacon is 52 cents a pound, and these exorbitant profits are being obtained on the goods sold to the Allies. That is the situation. No remedy is being provided by the Government, and it is not attempted to be provided. My hon. friend does not question or discredit Mr. O'Connor's figures, or declare that they are open to suspicion; he puts upon them the impress of reliability and of truth. If those figures were questioned by the William Davies company, why was not the matter determined? Instead of grappling with this matter, and dealing with it on the basis of a report of a commissioner in whom the Government has confidence, they appoint a commission-we have probably 110 commissions appointed by this Government-and send them upon a long investigation from which perhaps they will never return-and in the meantime 52 cents is the price of bacon for the people of this country.


Frank Oliver: I want to discuss this question as something which is very much bigger than the William Davies company. It goes a great deal further, and calls for attention on very much more important ground. 'This country is face to face with a very serious condition in the matter of the cost of living. From the monthly reports issued by the Labour Department, it is clear that the cost of living in Canada has increased at least fifty per cent within the past five years. Some little time ago I made a calculation and offered it to the i-iouse, to the effect that the burden of the cost of food upon the people of Canada had increased by an amount of approximately $250,000,000 a year, as compared with five or six years ago. This is a burden on industry that can only be carried by increasing the values, or the price, of the product of industry; it is putting Canada absolutely out of the race as a country of industrial production.
Unless the cost of living to the man who depends on his industry for his living can be brought down, his wages must go up, and Canada cannot compete in the markets of the world with her industrial products.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Where will the hon. gentleman go to find the cost of living less?


Frank Oliver: That is what we have put our friends in power for, and that, parti-

cularly, is what we maintain the Department of Labour for-to find some solution of this problem, which, I think, is very much bigger and very much wider than the William Davies company.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: How does my hon. friend reach the conclusion that if the cost of living in Canada is not reduced, Canada will be put out of business? Can he point to any other place where the cost of living is lower than it is here?


Frank Oliver: I think I can. The member for Richmond (Mr. Kyte) told the House sto-day, on what I believe to be good authority, that the cost of living was less to-day in blockaded England than it was in producing Canada.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Frank Oliver: And less in blockaded France than it is in producing Canada.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: No, the percentage of increase in those countries is double what it has been in Canada.


Frank Oliver: My hon. friend placed the figures before the House to-day. My belief is that they were correct, and that a condition exists in Canada for which there is no shadow of excuse. In years gone by the condition was not so serious, but within the past five years, as shown by the minister's own reports, the. cost of living has gone up every month until it has reached a pitch that absolutely closes Canada out as an industrial country when she undertakes to compete with the rest of the world.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The cost has gone up in the rest of the world, just the same.


Frank Oliver: I say most emphatically that it has not; that Canada is to-day an example of a country more thoroughly and completely under the control of monopoly, trust and combine than any other country in the world, and more under that control in the matter of its food products than it is in regard to any other product.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That is not the question at all. The question is whether the rise has been as rapid in other countries since the beginning of the war as it has been in Canada. In the great majority of cases-especially in the belligerent countries, but also in some, neutral countries- the rise elsewhere has been more rapid than it has been in Canada.


Frank Oliver: That would be no excuse for the condition in Canada, even if it

were the fact. Let us admit for the sake of argument, that it is the fact. Canada is an export producer; these countries' are import consumers. In normal times, there is absolutely no parallel between the conditions in Canada, a country which is an export producer of food, and tho'se in a country which is an import consumer of food.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: What about the United States?


Frank Oliver: Everybody knows that
the cost of living is less in the United States than it is in Canada.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yet my hon. friend
wanted our products to go' in there free because they would get a better price.


Frank Oliver: Precisely, because Canada, as I say, is in the hands of the little ring of combines and monopolies, centering in Toronto and Montreal, who stand between the producer and the consumer. As a matter of fact, the producer in Canada gets less and the consumer in Canada pays more in all staple lines than is the case with the producer and the consumer on the other side of the line. About that there is no argument.


William Wright: Surely the hon. gentleman is aware that the difference between what the producer gets and what the consumer pays is greater in the United States than it is ot ever has beem in Canada?


Frank Oliver: There is no use in my discussing the matter with my >hon. friend, because my information is absolutely to the contrary. My hon. friend cam verify the facts by visiting the United States at any point along the bionndiairy line. He will find that the staple necessaries of life are cheaper in the United States than they are in 'Canada, and he will find that the producer receives a better price than the producer in Canada.
Mr. WRIGH^J: I miay inform the hon. gentleman that I have studied the question, both 'in the United States and in Canada, to ias great an extent as he has.


Frank Oliver: Then there is no use in our discussing the matter any further. I am compelled to maintain the position that I have stated; it is absolutely in accordance with my knowledge of the 'facts.
The minister has seen fit, land very properly, to make lan investigation of the cost of food, particularly those classes of food
which pass through the cold storage establishments. Such 'a large proportion of the food of the people does pass 'through these establishments tHat necessarily the question .of the haindling of the food and the profits made during the process of its (passing from the producer to the consumer is an important consideration in settling -the question of the high cost of living. The minister as to be commended for having appointed a commissioner ias the first step in the effort of the Government, .assuming it to be making that effort to reduce or secure .a reduction in the cost of living and to put 'the Canadian consumer in the' position iin which he ought to be, but in which he is not, because of the existence of this combine amongst those who handle the production, preparation and distribution of food.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: In his report Mr. 0 Connor finds that there is no evidence whatever of a combine amongst the 110 cold storage plants in Canada.


Frank Oliver: I do not wish to discuss Mr. O'Connor or his merits or his report; I am commending the minister for having appointed an investigator. I shall not discuss the question whether Mr. O'Connor is an efficient investigator. But it is a fact that Canada, a country of export production, has paid more for the necessaries of life under normal conditions than a consumer of the same necessaries of life three thousand miles away on the other side of the ocean.


Mr. MORPHY:: Was that not true long before the war?


Frank Oliver: Yes. I do not know what the condition is at present. I would hope that what I have said is not true of the present, but I am afraid that it is. The member for Richmond has given figures to the House to show that it is true to-day; that notwithstanding the abnormal cost of transport across the ocean, we pay as much in Canada to-day for the products that we export as the consumer in Great Britain does. That is a condition for which there is no justification. It is not a condition which arises out of the law of supply and demand. Mr. O'Connor may find that th^re is no combine amongst the food handlers in Canada. I do not care what he finds in that regard. If it is a fact that the home consumer in Canada pays as much as the foreign consumer after the cost of transportation has been added, that is a condition that should not exist; it is not



in accordance with the law of supply and demand, and it should be made the subject of Government regulation and control in some way. It is not for me to dictate or suggest how that control should be exercised.	.
But it is not a fair proposition that the Canadian consumer of a Canadian product which is produced for export should have to pay. not the same price, but a higher price than the consumer art the other end of the market across the ocean has to pay. Such a condition of things is plain highway robbery. It could not take place unless there was a combine, no matter what Mr. O'Connor sayis, and it is the business of the Government and of the Minister of Labour to ensure that that condition shall not continue to exist.
I commend the minister for his appointment of Mr. O'Connor, but I protest to the minister against the delay of further investigations. Mr. O'Connor was an official of the minister's department. He took long enough, in. all conscience, to make his investigation. He has made his report. His report in some particulars is not very definite. He sets out a certain condition of facts which absolutely hears out what I have said in this House to-night. It is np to the Government and to the minister to take, action in this matter to-day-not to-morrow, or next month, or six months hence-and to tell the House and tihe country wbart action they purpose taking.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It is admitted by every one that a very important part of the expenses has not been given. The oust of cold storage, the cost of delivering the goods in Liverpool, the marine insurance and the cost of selling have not been given. Would my hon. friend have us take action before we get those particulars and know exactly what the net profits aTe? Those accountants have been appointed to get all those particulars so that we may have complete information.


Frank Oliver: If Mr. O'Connor is entitled to all the bouquets that he has been handed, having been six months on the job, he should have had complete information for the minister.
Mr. CROTHER'S:	He has recommended
?hat an expert accountant be appointed.


Frank Oliver: I am not concerned with Mt. O'Connor; I tam concerned with the minister and with the Government. Here is a report which makes a certain statement of facts in regard to a certain matter. I imagine there is no necessity for a further

investigation in regard to some of those facts.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The report does not
pretend to be complete.


Frank Oliver: It ought to be complete.
I hold the minister and the Government responsible for its not being complete enough to enable the Government to take action. After the report of the commission which was composed of an employee of the Government appointed by the minister, the other commission appointed is, to my mind, not a commission for the purpose- of carrying out an investigation; it is a commission along the same lines as the Sir Charles Davidson Commission.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend is
familiar with the order in council passed last November and iwith clause 6, which says, in substance, that when a return is made to me, I may appoint an examiner and authorize him to examine the books of the party and take evidence from witnesses under oath and so on. If he reads the order in council appointing these accountants, he will see that it is recited in that order that this is being done pursuant to the order in council of November last, so that this is simply carrying out the instructions we have under that order in council.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Why did not the minister make the companies give the information in the first place?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: We might have sent
an expert accountant at that time.


Frank Oliver: I do not wish to enter
into a criticism of the details.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I would like my hon. friend to go into the details.


Frank Oliver: The statement made by
the minister is subject to the interpretation that when the first order in council was drawn it was drawn with a view to enabling a further postponement of action to take place. That is the onfy possible conclusion to place upon it.
To summarize what I have said, we are dealing with the biggest question that Canada has to face to-day. We have before the House a report, the result of six months' work under the direction of the minister himself, and, instead of our getting action under that report, all we get is another commission of inquiry. That is not what this country needs at the present time, and it is not what this country de-

mands. It is not in line with the action that the same Government takes in regard to other matters. For instance, let us take the action of the Government in regard to the control of the distribution of wheat. We have appointed a Board of Grain Supervisors to control the wheat trade of Canada. They can take possession of all the wheat in all the elevators of all Canada at any time. They can sell it to whom they please, when they please, at what price they please, and they can do more than that; they can prevent the export of grain from Canada. Is that the result of an investigation by a special commissioner such as Mr. O'Connor in regard to the cold storage business? I do not know whether it is or not, but I know that this authority has been placed in the hands of the Board of Grain Supervisors and that they have taken action under that authority. There is as much money involved in the action that they take as there could be involved in dealing with those cold storage estblishments. On the 27th of July the Board of Grain Supervisors fixed a maximum price at which the wheat of the crop of 1916 could be sold after the 1st of August. Why is it not just as competent for a commissioner appointed by the Minister of Labour or by the Government to fix a price at which Sir Joseph Flavelle shall sell his bacon after the 1st of August? What is the difference? There has been much more investigation in the case of Sir Joseph Flavelle than there has been in the case of the wheat, but in the latter case the Government have taken action and in the former they have handed us a commission which simply means that they are not going to take action. Let us have action in both cases. At the moment, I am not complaining about the action in the case of the wheat, but if we are to have the greatest industry of all Canada placed under mandatory control, such as the wheat trade is placed under, then there is no reason why this other article of food should not be placed under equally mandatory control. The Board of Grain Supervisors have gone further than to fix a maximum price for wheat after the 1st of August. It seems that the price of wheat is higher in the United States than it is in Canada. My hon. friend from Muskoka (Mr. Wright) will, I hope, not challenge that statement.
I find from the Ottawa Citizen of this morning that on July 28 No. 1 Northern cash wheat was womth $2.39 in Winnipeg, which is 1 cent below the maximum price
250J
as it will be after the 1st of August. In Minneapolis cash wheat was $2.90, and in Duluth $2.93. There was a difference of 50 cents a bushel between Winnipeg and Minneapolis and Duluth on Saturday lost. Now, remember that the maximum price in Canada only was to take effect after the 1st of August, .but the fixing of that maximum price depressed the price in Canada to 1 cent below the maximum figure, namely, to $2.39 instead of $2.40. Naturally, the owners of wheat in Canada would want to ship to the United States and get the benefit of that 50 cents a bushel. Now you can ship at least 1,000,000 bushels a day, and at 50 cents a bushel that would mean half a million dollars a day that the wheat traders could have made by shipping wheat from Canada to the United States.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: What would it cost to ship the wheat from Winnipeg to Minneapolis?


Frank Oliver: I could not tell my hon. friend, but it is just the same rate-


Thomas Wilson Crothers: It would not be 50 cents a bushel.


Mr. HANNA:: What does my hon. friend understand by No. 1 Northern Minneapolis?


Frank Oliver: I understand wheat of No. 1 grade.


Adelbert Edward Hanna: Is it our Canadian Northern?


Frank Oliver: It 'is an American Northern.


Adelbert Edward Hanna: That As a different thing. Kansas wheat is coming in just now. That is the reason.


Frank Oliver: I think that would be a reason the other way. If Kansas wheat is coming in now if would depress the price at Minneapolis, but at Minneapolis the price was 50 cents 'higher than at Winnipeg for an inferior class of wheat, because their No. 1 Northern is not equal to ours.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: There is probably an error in the quotation from Minneapolis.
Mr. OnlVER: There is no error, beoause the quotation is about 'the same for Minneapolis and Duluth.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: There never was a
spread of 50 cents before.


William Wright: Why do not our farmers simply send their wheat down there?


Frank Oliver: That is exactly what I was coming to. The reason, is that this same Board of Supervisors have put
10 p.m. on a prohibition against shipping wheat to the United States.


Adelbert Edward Hanna: That prohibition is not in effect yet.


Frank Oliver: It is in effect.


Adelbert Edward Hanna: Not until the first of August.


Frank Oliver: It is in effect now. It was put into effect before the 1st of August to prevent this wheat going to the United States and taking that 50 cents premium in price.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: That would be for the benefit of the working man in Canada, who would be getting food cheaper.


Frank Oliver: Not necessarily so. Unfortunately, the miller has the same call on the wheat that Sir Joseph Flavelle has on the hogs, and as between the price of the wheat that goes into the mill and the price of flour that reaches the consumer that is where the 25 per cent dividends of the Ogilvie Milling Company comes in. The farmer does not get the price for the wheat that the consumer pays for the flour, any more than the farmer gets the price for the hog that the consumer pays for the bacon.


William Wright: Flour is free.


Frank Oliver: No.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes, it is.


Frank Oliver: Admitting that flour is free, bran and shorts are not free, anyhow. As a matter of fact the Government has taken authority, and has exercised that authority, in regard to the most important product that Canada has, absolutely to control the price, and not only the price but the sale also. It is not simply that they have taken the power, but they have exercised that power, and it is costing the holders of wheat in the West at the rate of half a million dollars a day from the time it was put into effect up to the 1st of August. I am not arguing at the moment whether that was wise or unwise, right or wrong. Although I hold that it was wrong as wrong could be, yet, for the purpose of my present argument, all I say is that the Government that could put its hand on the product of a western farm, first to fix a maximum price and next to prevent its export, when it was not prepared to handle the wheat or to protect the Canadian consumer in the milling of that wheat, has no 	! i | |J
warrant for saying that it cannot regulate the price of bacon just as it cduld regulate the price of wheat.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Would the hon. gentleman be in favour of the Government fixing an arbitrary price of $1.50 a bushel for Canadian wheat instead of $2.40? That would be for the benefit of the working man.


Frank Oliver: I am not discussing that at the moment.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Would you advocate that?


Frank Oliver: I shall have to allow my hon. friend to make his own speech, and ask him to allow me to make mine. What I want to say is that the Government cannot shelter itself behind all kinds of commissions from dealing with this question of the high cost of living, as it is affected by the abattoirs and the cold storage establishments, when the Government had taken means to control the price of that other great food product, the wheat of the western farmer. What they can do in the one case they can do in the other, and if they were wrong to do it in the one case, they should not do it in the other.
My hon. friend asked me about the cost of wheat and flour to the eastern consumer. Does he suppose that the eastern consumer gets that flour at the price the farmer gets for his wheat, any more than the eastern consujmer gets his bacon at the price the farmer gets for his hogs? No, he knows that standing between the produce^ and the consumer is the miller in the case of wheat, and the pork packer in the case of bacon. Does he not know that the price the farmer gets for his wheat or hogs has no relation to the price the consumer pays for his flour or bacon?


Hugh Boulton Morphy: My idea is that in view of the high cost of living the Government has been far ton generous in fixing the maximum price for wheat at $2.40 a bushel. I think if the price had been fixed at $2 or $1.75 or $1.60, it would have been a very veTy advantageous price for any farmer to get for wheat for which he had only been getting $1 or $1.10 a bushel. If any one should complain, it is not the farmer in the West, but the working man. In my opinion the price is altogether in favour of the farmer.
Mr. OLIVER; That is not the point I was discussing.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: That was the point I was discussing.


Frank Oliver: It is quite competent for my hon. friend to say what the western farmer should get for his product.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: The high cost of living does not matter?


Frank Oliver: The point I make is that no matter what the farmer gets it is not what the consumer pays, and that the eastern consumer pays without regard to what the western farmer obtains.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: You say so.


Frank Oliver: It is the fact. Where do these pork-packing establishments and these milling companies get their dividends if they do not get them out of the producer on the one hand or the consumer on the other? What this Government should do is not to prevent, the producer from getting a fair price for his product, but they should prevent the middleman, the miller, the pork packer and the cold-storage man, from stealing from the producer on the one hand and from the consumer on1 the other. That is the duty of the Government, and the Government would be well advised to take that position. I must say to my hon. friend that, in my humble judgment, he is very unfortunate in making the suggestion as to a limitation with regard to the price that the producer of the West should receive for his wheat. In this particular season, it is to be regretted, but I am afraid it is likely to be true, the western farmer will receive a very small return on the amount of his crop. If he gets $2 or $2.50 for his wheat, it will not give him a return such as he could get a few years ago at a much less price. That is unfortunately the condition, and why should not the western farmer, with that unfortunate condition looming up this year, get the price that the markets of the world will afford him? You ask the western farmer to increase his production, but the only way you can get him to increase it is to give him a profit on the production he has. It is a shortsighted and most unfortunate policy on the part of the Government that they should exercise that power which is placed in their hands for the purpose of deliberately depressing the price of the farmer's. product below the price that the markets of the world properly afford. Such action cannot be justified under any circumstances, and particularly it cannot be justified under the circumstances of this present year. I am perfectly satisfied for the Government to have the control that it has under the War Measures Act. I am perfectly satisfied that it should exercise that control under certain circumstances. But I say that when it exercises that control under
the circumstances which, unfortunately for the country, exist this year, it is not justified and should not exercise it at the present time. But having exercised that control as they have, it is utterly and absolutely without excuse that fifty 'allow the pork barons to go on heaping up profits as they have done and taking them out of the producer 'and the consumer, one or the other. It is not only in the case of wheat that my hon. friends have seen fit to act. They fixed the price of newsprint paper. I iam sorry that my hon. friend from Sherbrooke (Mr. McOreia) is not here, because if he had been he rw,ould have enlightened the House on that pnatter. But the Government fixed the price of newsprint >and then they held an investigation. In the case of pork they neither fixed the price nor held an investigation that has any termination to it. There is only one answer to all that, and it is that the Government is part of that combine, which to-day is putting Canada out of business as an industrial country, is making the rich richer and the poor poorer, and notwithstanding the flood of war money is leaving the country worse off than it was before.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What are the powers of the Food Controller? Has he the power to fix the prices of food commodities ?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I would not like to undertake to say offhand. His powers are very fully defined in the order in council appointing him. I think he has power under certain circumstances to fix prices, but I would not like to state it without having the order before me. It is a rather lengithy document.


Mr.  A. K. MAOLEAN@: I would suggest that the minister acquaint himiself with the powers granted the Food Controller because the investigation of Mr. O'Oomnor will be for nothing unless there is somebody to enforce the recommendations of his report. Mr. O'Connior, on page 62, states that:
Now that a Pood Controller has been appointed and very close co-operation established between that official and this branch of this department, I consider myself relieved from the making of any suggestions as to the amelioration of conditions as I may find and disclose them, deeming that the function of action concerning food prices and food conditions, as distinguished from that of investigation, is now his to perform, and that any recommendations of mine, even though valueless, or because so, might prove embarrassing. He will be furnished with a copy of this report, and all data secured on the investigation'or to be secured will be (as he has requested, and

as you as minister have directed) will be at his disposal.
I assume .that when Mr. O'Gomnor made this repent he felt that he was not in a position to make recommendations for the amelioration of the conditions which he was investigating for the reason that immediately before making his report a food controller had been appointed who would have absolute authority to regulate prices. If the minister does not know whether the food controller has these powers, and if this report has not been transmitted to him, the work of the commissioner is absolutely valueless. I would like to 'ask the minister what he proposes doing in this regard? Surely he does not mean that his commissioner shall do work that is unproductive and useless to the nation? The report has been before Parliament for isome weeks, and surely that report has come into the hands of the food controller for action.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I would like to remind the hon. gentleman (Mr. A. K. Maclean) that the minister (Mr. Crofhers) has exhausted his right to speak.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: My hon. friend, the Minister of Labour may speak with the consent of the House, and I am sure there will he no objection to his again having an opportunity to speak. I have one other word to say before the minister rises to make any reply. This report has made it abundantly clear that this second investigation is absolutely unnecessary and purposeless. Mr. O'Connor has made it very clear in his report that he did not attempt to find what were the net profits of 'those engaged in connection with the food products which he has had under investigation. He makes it much clearer than I thought he had-my information was largely from the newspaper summaries of the report that ihe was dealing merely with the margin between the buying and selling prices. He recommends that to ascertain what were the actual net profits an accountant be employed. That is a very fair recommendation, and with the assistance which in this particular' case the William Davies Company could render the accountant the whole matter could be closed up, I would imagine, in the course of a few days. Therefore, as the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) and the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) pointed out, a commission seems to be absolutely unnecessary and serves no good purpose; it means an expenditure of money by the country and delays action on the part of the

minister or the food controller. I think the minister should rescind the appointment of the commission by the Government. It is not too late for him to recall the appointment. All the information could have been secured by the appointment of one cost accountant. I submit that the minister has not justified the appointment of this commission. It seems to bave been appointed to suit the purposes of one of the manufacturing concerns whose .business operations were the subject of investigation by Mr. O'Connor. They seem to have demanded it and the Government seem to have acceded to their request, but I say that there was no reason or purpose in doing so.
Mr. CR0THER1S: Mr. Speaker-


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: By the unanimous consent of the House there can be no objection to the courtesy being extended to the minister of a reply; but if there is any objection it is not competent for him to speak again.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I do not desire to take up any time,'especially at this late hour. The hon. member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) is labouring under a misunderstanding. I do not think he was here when I spoke about clause 6 of the order in council passed last year which authorizes a further examination by an examiner or examiners under oath, the production of books, and so on. My hon. friend will find that the men whom he calls the commission were appointed by reason of clause 6 of the order in council.
Mr. A. K. iMIACLBAN: That is the authority for the appointment. I ask, why was not the matter further investigated by Mr. O'Connor?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Mr. O'Connor recommended that an expert accountant be got for the purpose.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But not a commission.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: We do not call these commissioners; they are examiners. Messrs. Brodie and Clarkson are two of as expensive men as you can find in Canada. They, like Mr. Henderson, are working for nothing, as a contribution. Does my hon. friend suggest that these three men will waste time in order to delay the report? No, they will go through the books as expeditiously as possible, and they are doing so now.


Mr. ROSS:: May I ask a question?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The minister has exhausted his right to reply, but by courtesy he has been allowed to continue. That courtesy cannot be extended indefinitely because the rules are quite specific.


James Hamilton Ross: I want only to ask a question.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. member is quite within his rights in asking a question, but the minister is not permitted to answer it.


James Hamilton Ross: He was still speaking when I arose.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: He was not speaking, he arose to reply to a question by courtesy. The minister spoke this afternoon.


James Hamilton Ross: I can speak with the minister on another occasion.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Any time.


WIDENING OF PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND RAILWAY.
James Joseph Hughes: Mr. Speaker, I was very much disappointed this afternoon at the answers of the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Cochrane) to the questions I asked him. I feel satisfied that the people of Prince Edward Island will also be much disappointed. The minister seems to lack knowledge in regard to transportation conditions between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, and in regard to the quantity of produce that should be moved from that province to the mainland, and the very short period of time, under present conditions, given to the people to move it. Previous to 1911 we were making some progress in the improvement of our transportation facilities. A company having a small subsidy of $12,000 a year had supplied two very efficient steamers to carry on the trade in the summer season, and the Government had provided two very capable ice-breaking steamers to do the work in the winter season. Shortly after the present Government came into power they undertook to change these conditions and to improve the system, which had not been giving entire satisfaction. They decided to establish the car-ferry system, that is to provide a steamer, to carry loaded cars between the island and the mainland. We were told that this could be finished in two years, and that then the Prince Edward Island Railway would be standardized to conform with the gauge of railways on the mainland so that cars could be loaded at the point of shipment and carried right through, loaded to the point
of destination. This would avoid the heavy charges and delay caused by the double transfer of freight between car and boat. This promise of standardizing the gauge was repeated by the Government year after year. Considerable delay was experienced in the building of the terminals, but we were looking forward to improvement when they should be completed. In this expectation the people of the island submitted without protest to the sale of the two winter steamers to the Russian Government. It was pointed out too that it was for war purposes, and we were willing to submit to a good deal if it was to the advantage ot the Allies in the great conflict. We were thus asked to make a greater sacrifice than any other province was asked to make, and we submitted without a murmur.
When the contract with the company to which 1 have referred terminated, the Government did not renew it, and they allowed one of the steamers, the better one, owned by the company, to be sold and to leave the service altogether. The Government bought the inferior one and kept her in the service. We are told by the Minister of Railways that the Government has no intention whatever of proceeding with the standardizing of the Prince Edward Island1 railway. He has not even stated that it would be undertaken at some time in the future, he held out no hope whatever. The car ferry will be of little or no use to the people of that province, until the gauge on the Island railway is widened, made to correspond with the gauge of the railways on the mainland. We will still have to transfer from car to oar, and again from ear to car, which will be no improvement over the former system, when we had to transfer from ca.r to steamer, and from steamer to car. The minister intimated that we might not even have the use of the steamers now plying between Summerside and Point du Chene, and the small steamer plying between Charlottetown and; Pictou, once1 the caT ferry comes into operation. If these steamers are taken off, and if we have to depend entirely on the car ferry under the conditions I have pointed out, transportation will be practically tied up altogether, and the people of Prince Edward Island will not be able to market their produce this fall. One of the great advantages of having the gauge of the Prince Edward Island railway widened would be that we could get refrigerator cars in which to load our perishable products, and therefore they would be comparatively safe during the month of Novem-
394(1

ber, thus extending the period of shipment. With the narrow 'gauge railway, we shall be obliged to ship to the terminal points in. the ordinary cars, subject to frost and rot, 'but chiefly subject to frost, and subject to all the conditions that may be occasioned in that way. Last season a very large quantity of potatoes were frozen in transit, just because of the conditions that I have pointed out, and these potatoes were a total loss, to the shipper in most cases. And it was an ordinary season. The railway protects itself, because it provides on the bill of lading that it will not be responsible for frost, and the shipper has to. take all the risks. The minister this afternoon stated that one of the objections to widening the gauge of the railway was that the bridges would have to be strengthened. Surely that objection could have been raised at any time during the last five or six years, just as well as it can be raised now. The minister must have known that the bridges would have to be strengthened when he gave the promise time and again that the gauge of the Prince Edward Island railway would be widened. If the steamer plying between Summerside and Point du Chene and the small steamer plying between Charlottetown and Pictou be taken out of the service, it will be simply impossible to handle the freight at any one particular point. Last year we had two steamers working at Charlottetown, the car ferry and the Stanley.
We had also the Northumberland at Summerside and yet the congestion of freight was so great, and these perishable products were kept waiting so long, that they were destroyed. They were in bad condition even before the frost arrived. They were weeks on the road. The steamers could not take them across to the mainland, and finally when they were taken over it was so late they were caught by the frost and lost completely. Last spring the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the Minister of Finance advised the people in every way they could to increase production, that it was very important under the conditions in which we find ourselves to-day that the food production of the country should be increased by every possible means. The farmers of Prince Edward Island took that advice to heart, and this year the acreage under roots is much larger than it has been for many years. The crop looks well; the prospects are good, but what is the use of producing if you cannot get to market? Under these circumstances, the widening of the gauge of the Prince Edward Island rail-

way might be fairly classed as a war measure. Food is essentially necessary for the European countries now at war with Germany. Therefore production is most important in this country. The farmers of Prince Edward Island have done their share, but if the service is to be tied up and our produce is not to be carried across the Northumberland straits, what excuse can the Government give? I know the time is short. Not much can be done this year, but at least an effort can be made to do something, and the Government should give a definite promise that the steamers the Northumberland and Arranmore will 'be kept in the service between Prince Edward Island -and the mainland, and that all the assistance which the Government can give will be given to the people of that province to move their products this year. The Government, however, will not, 'and the Minister of Railways does not, give that promise; they hold out no 'hope whatever. The Minister of Railways seems to take the attitude, when you speak to him on .a business question in the ordinary affairs of parliamentary life, that you 'are offending him. He gives that impression. He has an irritable disposition land becomes 'apparently offended right off, and almost offensive in his remarks. Perhaps he does not feel that way, but it as unfortunate when we have business to transact with him in this House. The Prime Minister and the Minister of Railways have given the excuse that money is scarce in these serious times, and when we are at war we must economize, and that is given as a reason why the standardizing of the Prince Edward Island Railway has not been undertaken. But only a few days ago $3,000,000 was voted for some work on the Hudson Bay railway and for terminals at Port Nelson. That is not an urgent matter. I doubt very much if the terminals at Port Nelson will ever be any good. My firm conviction is that all the millions which have been spent and the millions which will be spent at Port Nelson will be thrown away. At any rate, that project can wait for a little while, but the matter to which I have drawn attention is very pressing >and cannot -wait, without inflicting great injury and great loss upon the people of the province from which I come, and to some extent loss upon all the other provinces as well. I think this question is of greater importance and 'advantage to the people of Canada as a whole than itihe question of purchasing the Quebec and Saguenay railway.


George Perry Graham: I guess you aTe right about that.


James Joseph Hughes: I do not know that there is any particular work for the Government to do once they take possession of the Quebec and Saguenay railway. It is certainly not going to carry any produce from Quebec to the Labrador coast or to the more settled portions of Canada. If we are short of money, as no doubt we are, that is a railway that might very well wait while we proceed with things that are of far greater importance and far greater urgency, and, at the same time, carry out the promise of the Government. The Minister of Railways does not seem to be much exercised over the fact that the Government repeatedly made promises in regard to this matter. Now he deliberately throws the project to one side. The large expenditure that has already been made in the building of a car ferry steamer and of the expensive . terminals at Cape Tormentine and at Point Borden, will be of little use unless the whole work is completed. I make this statement to-night in the hope that it will reach other members of the Government, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) who, I think, would possibly take a little more interest in this matter than the Minister of Railways appears to take. This is one of the things that the members supporting the Government and the senators and all representatives from Prince Edward Island should take up with the Government; they should not allow it to go on in this way. The matter is so important to the whole of the people of that province that the Minister of Railways should not dismiss it in the cavalier manner in which he put it to one side this afternoon.
I see the senior member for Queen's county (Mr. A. A. McLean) in his seat. I know that he took a deep interest in this matter some years ago. I remember his stating at a meeting that the whole work would be completed within two years from the time that it, was commenced. The hon. member . may have honestly thought so at the time, but now five years have passed, and the work is not yet finished. The members from Prince Edward Island should not allow this matter to rest where it is at present. We shall have at least 3,000,000 bushels of potatoes to dispose of this fall, to say nothing of cereals and other products of various kinds. We have very valuable fisheries but we cannot develop them properly until
we are able to ship in cold storage, or in refrigerator cars; and this we cannot do until the gauge of the Prince Edward Island railway is widened. What has already been done is of no use whatever until the whole project is completed. The transportation facilities that we formerly had have been upset; communication is not as good now as it was some years ago, in consequence of the disarrangement that has taken place. It will remain that way until the gauge of the railway is made to correspond with the gauge of the line on the mainland, and until we can ship right through from the point of production to the point of destination. I shall be pleased to hear'from the sudor member for Queens county on this subject; perhaps he knows something about it which he would wish to state to the House.


Mr. A. A. McLEAN (Queens, P.E.I.):: I have listened with interest to the remarks of the member, for Kings county (Mr. J. J. Hughes) in this matter. I find that he disagrees with the member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald). The member for Pictou a day or two ago expressed the view that it was not necessary to have the gauge of the Prince Edward Island railway widened; he thought that the matter should be left over until after the conclusion of the war. So that two hon. gentlemen who were supporting the Liberal Government for many years and who never did anything in the matter, differ on this subject. Now that the work has been initiated by the present Government, the member for Kings comes before this House and finds fault. I regret as much as any man that the war has come on and that this work has been stopped. I did all I could to induce the Minister of Railways and the Government to proceed with this work. I .am told, however, that the cost of the war is so great and the money stringency eo pressing that if is impossible to go on with these large public works. Since 1912, when 'the Government initiated this work, a terminal has been built at Cape Tormentine for this oar ferry. The Government purchased the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island railway, at great expense. They built on the Prince Edward Island 'side of the Straits of Northumberland a great public work to receive the traffic between Cape Tormentine and Prince Edward Island. They purchased a car-ferry steamer, the Prince Edward- Island, at an expense of between $800,000 and $900,-

000. This boat has done great service to Prince Edward Island; she has kept' up oommiunioartion better than any beat we ever had. It is true that the communication was between Pictou and Charlottetown. I do not east any reflection npon the port of Pictou, but I think that when the terminals are completed between Cape Traverse ;and Carletom Point and Cape Tor-menfcine, we shall have ia better service than has been had between Piotou and Prince Edward Island.
The hon. .member states that the work which has been done is of no practical value, owing to the fact that the gauge of the railway has not been standardized. I do not agree with him in that. I believe that the promise made by the present Government in 1912 that they would finish this great public work will be carried out. But we must take into consideration the present money stringency; we must take into consideration the fact that a war is on, and that every cent that Canada can obtain from all the various resources at her disposal is being used for war purposes. We must remember, also, that great public works have been stopped. The. works on the 'Welland canal and on various other undertakings throughout Canada have not been proceeded with actively. I understand that a very small sum of money is 'being used to keep up the work on the Hudson Bay line. The amount now being devoted to that work is infinitesimal compared with the total amount necessary to complete it. I have urged on the Government right along the necessity of at least partially completing this work by standardizing the road between .Charlottetown land Garleton Point and between Summer-side and Garleton Point. I think that that is all that is necessary at the present time. Different boards of trade in Prince Edward Island have made representations to the Government to standardize the gauge of this' portion of the road. I understand the amount to be expended in that work would be only about $250,000. If we can show the Government that the gauge of those portions of the road can be standardized for that comparatively small amount of money, the Government would probably go on with the work. Neither I nor my colleagues have been idle in making representations to the Government to undertake that work. I can, of course, see that if an election comes on, the hon. member for Kings, P.E.I. (Mr. J. J. Hughes) will have a great big flag to

wave; that he will say that the work which the Government has undertaken has fallen through, and that it will never be proceeded with. That will be his cry.


James Joseph Hughes: The hon. member is obsessed with the nightmare of an election.


Angus Alexander McLean: There is no justification for a contention of that kind. Considering all the circumstances, this Government have done very well by Prince Edward Island in this respect, and I do not find any fault with them. But if a small amount would complete that work in order to move the great crop which is in the province this year, and which I understand will be double the crop that was produced last year-and that was a great crop-the Government would be justified in spending the small sum of $250,000. I will ask the Minister of Militia (Sir Edward Kemp) to report to the Minister of Railways that this work should be done and to use his influence with the Government in order that this small expenditure be made so that the business of the province may be facilitated. The business there is almost equal to that of New Brunswick and equal, so far as many products are concerned, to that of Nova' Scotia.	,


James Joseph Hughes: Why does not the hon. member go to the Minister of Railways instead of .sending the Minister of Militia to him? The Minister of Militia is a very busy man and, not knowing the circumstances, he could not present the case as well as my hon. friend, who knows all the local conditions.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The Minister of Militia could take the local force with him.


James Joseph Hughes: Why does my hon. friend send a deputy?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: I think my hon. friend, when speaking, intimated that he had already impressed upon the Minister of Railways-


James Joseph Hughes: And he gets nothing.
Sir EDWARD KEMP-the importance of the project, and I will draw the attention of the minister to the very important debate that has taken place regarding this matter.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The hon. member for Queens, P.E.I. (Mr. A. A. McLean) wants the point of the bayonet to be used.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rainville in the Chair.
Militia and Defence - Allowances, active militia corps, $80,000.
['I shall be very glad to look it up, in any case.\nProgress reported.']
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: While many orders for returns have been issued during the last three months in regard to this important department of Militia, the minister has not brought down any of those returns except the one that he brought down to-day relating to the expenditure on a site in British Columbia. It is usual, before Supply is obtained, that information of that kind should be given, and I am rather surprised and disappointed at not receiving it. While no one on this side of the House desires to obstruct the passage of the minister's estimates, the minister owes it to the House to bring down those returns. Time after time, there have been placed on the Order Paper questions that might easily be answered by the department through the minister, and the minister has said: " Stand as order for return," and that is the last we see of the information. That is hardly a courteous way in which to treat hon. members of this House in regard to matters concerning an important department.


Albert Edward Kemp: Will my hon.
friend let me know, if he can, any particular return he desires in reference to the militia estimates?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The minister has
sufficient officials in his department to look after these returns. Some time ago, I started to make up a list of them, and I found many that had been entirely disregarded. The secretary of the department is, I assume, the official to whom these matters go. Is the House to understand that when orders for returns are issued, they are not to be obeyed at all, and that when the question is brought up, we are to be asked what particular one we want before the others. We want them all, and that is what we are entitled to have.


Albert Edward Kemp: The questions
that have been asked of the Department of Militia and Defence are perhaps as numerous as those asked of all the other departments put together, and the information asked for has been forthcoming with the greatest possible celerity. There are a few returns that are not yet ready but that will be ready shortly. I placed a return on the table of the House to-day, and I
shall be able to place several more on the Table to-morrow. My hon. friend is not right in stating that no returns that have been asked for have been laid upon the Table.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Will the minister give the dates?


Albert Edward Kemp: I cannot give the exact day or month, any more than my hon. friend is able to give the information asked of him; but there have been returns laid on the table of the House.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Not since we met after the adjournment in February.


Albert Edward Kemp: I am under the impression that not a single return which has any reference to the militia estimates and which has been asked for, has not been laid on the table of the House. *


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The minister will recall that it was distinctly understood that, in order to facilitate the departure of the Prime Minister in February, when the militia estimates came up, any matters in reference to the appropriations for the war could be discussed. I assume that the minister is aware of that. How many officers in uniform are employed in and around the Militia. Department on staff and other duties?


Albert Edward Kemp: The officers on
the Headquarters Staff are the Inspector General of Canada, Quartermaster General, Chief of General Staff, Adjutant General, Master General of Ordnance, Judge Advocate General, Director General Engineer Services, Director General of Mobilization, a Director General Medical Services, Director General Supplies and Transport, Director General Clothing and Equipment, Director General, of Musketry, Assistant Adjutant General (2),-Assistant Adjutant General (1), Military Secretary, Director of Artillery, Director of Stores, Chief Inspector of Small Arms, Director General Works and Buildings, Director of Military Training, Assistant Paymaster General, Director of Military Operations, Assistant Director of Supplies and Transport, Officer for Imperial Staff at War Officer, a/Offioer i/o Stores Audit, Deputy Assistant Adjutant General, Assistant Director Engineers Services, Assistant Director Military Intelligence, Assistant Director Military Surveys, Assistant Director of Signalling, Chief Instructor of Musketry, Staff Office to Inspector General.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: And the non-commissioned officers?


Albert Edward Kemp: About 175 military clerks and 75 orderly clerks.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Are these men on
service pay?


Albert Edward Kemp: They are paid according to their rank in the militia. They form part of the Permanent Force and receive the allowance paid to members of the Permanent Force.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: They are not really in the Civil Service, hut are treated as on active service and are paid accordingly?


Albert Edward Kemp: Yes.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: How many of them are returned soldiers?


Albert Edward Kemp: I cannot give the exact number, but it has been our policy to employ as many returned soldiers as possible. Whenever a vacancy occurs we seek out a returned soldier. A great many of the men on the staff are not physically fit fox overseas service.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Perhaps the minister would let me know how many of them axe returned soldiers when his estimates are up again. [DOT]


Albert Edward Kemp: I shall be glad to.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the minister also inform me when next his estimates are up, how many men are employed at Halifax on the Headquarters Medical Staff, and everything of that nature?


Albert Edward Kemp: I shall get that information for my hon. friend.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In the county of Cape Breton we have very large coal, iron and steel industries, all contributing essentially to the production of munitions in this country. Right at the coal
11	p.m. mines is the landing place of one of the Atlantic cables, and on account of that it has been necessary to have a home guard regiment right in the town of North Sydney and at Sydney Mines. It has done excellent work, and has been instrumental in maintaining good order in that vicinity. A large number of foreigners are employed at these mines and steel works, and I have reason to believe that we might have difficulty with these men if the regiment were not stationed there all the time. That is one of the chief reasons why the 94th Regiment has been kept there. That regiment has also been an excellent medium for sending men to the front, over 600 men and some excellent

officers having gone forward from time to time. There is quite a large number of this regiment left, some at Louisburg, some at Glace Bay, some at North Sydney and some at Sydney Mines, defending the Marconi towers and other works. What I wish to bring particularly to the attention of the .minister is that these men are complaining of the pay they receive. Many of them are heads of families and are getting only $1.10 a day. These men are doing a good service for their country, although they are not at the front, and it is almost impossible for a *man to support his family on $1.10 a day. in view of the present cost of foodstuffs. I think the minister should take this into consideration and endeavour to get better pay for these men, who are rendering excellent service to their country.


Mr. EDWARDS:: All they get is $1.10 a day?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That is all they get.


Mr. NICKLE:: They get subsistence allowance as well.


Albert Edward Kemp: Married men get $1.10 a day and 45 cents subsistence allowance.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Even that is small pay under present conditions.


Albert Edward Kemp: Yes, it is.


Mr. DOUGLAS:: I wish to draw the attention of the minister to* a matter concerning the pay of the men enlisted in the Forestry battalions. I understand that special pay has been given to men with special qualifications in these battalions, such as sawyers, imiillwrigfhts, saw filers and so on. They enlist as privates, but if they are doing sawmill work or expert forestry work they receive extra pay. I believe the rates of pay are as follows:
Fer Day.
Sawyers	 $3.00
Millwrights	 3.00
Saw filers	   2.25
Edger men	 2.25	'
Engineers	 2.25
Log setters	 1.75
Cooks	 1.75
They are promised this pay when they enlist in these Forestry battalions, but once they draw this pay the Patriotic Fund is cut off from their wives an.d families. Is that action taken by the Militia Department or is it by the local organization of the Patriotic Fund.


Albert Edward Kemp: I cannot speak
as to the correctness of my hon. friend's

figures, but I have no doubt that what he says is right. Extra pay is given to certain classes of experts 'who join the Forestry battalions such as isaw filers and those whom my bon. friend has named.. He states that for that reason the administration of the Patriotic Fund withhold the allowance and give it to those who do. not get that extra pay. The Government have nothing to do with the administration of the Patriotic Fund. It is a voluntary organization and I could not speak with authority as to what the Patriotic Fund Association do. with regard to withholding the allowance from the few men- who get extra wages.


James McCrie Douglas: The minister must
recognize that some action must be taken by the Militia Department or the Patriotic Fund administration would not know that these men get this extra pay.


Albert Edward Kemp: Any information
in regard to the families of soldiers is readily given to the Patriotic Association by the department and vice versa.


James McCrie Douglas: The claim made in regard to this special work of the Forestry battalions is that these men have more arduous duties than the ordinary private or non-commissioned officer. Their hours are longer anid they are called upon to do much more expert and arduous work than the private soldier getting $1.10 a day with separation and Patriotic Fund allowances. Quite a number of complaints have come from men who have been induced to. enter these Forestry battalions on the understanding that, on .account of the expert nature of the work, they would get .added pay. When they found that the Patriotic Fund allowance was withheld from their wives and families they naturally felt aggrieved. I quite understand that the department has nothing to do with the administration of the Patriotic Fund but if these men were induced to enlist under false pretenses I do not think the department can shirk the responsibility.


William Folger Nickle: I am one of the Central
Executive of the Patriotic Fund and the proceedings are along this line: various standard allowances in different parts of Canada were determined upon as being such as to meet the requirements for reasonable subsistence. The men who received special pay in Forestry battalions were required to show what this amount was and if the total amount that they were receiving with respect to the work they were doing did not exceed what was considered a reasonable subsistence allowance the Patriotic Fund supplemented the money that the men were receiving, hut if they were earning in connection with their work an amount which equalled a reasonable .subsistence allowance the Patriotic Fund did not contribute. Whether or not there was any misrepresentation I cannot say, but it has been well understood for some time that no Patriotic Fund money would be paid where men were receiving more than what was reasonably necessary for subsistence.


Frank Oliver: I would like to point out in this connection that there is quite clearly a misrepresentation to the men. A man is engaged .as a .sawyer. He is to get extra pay but if the patriotic .allowance upon which he depended for his family is cut off then there is misrepresentation to him for which the Militia Department will have to be held responsible. I hope this Parliament will not agree to a juggling between the Patriotic Fund and the Militia Department to deprive a man who has enlisted in good faith to render special services of the allowance that he had every reason to believe be would get upon his joining. If he renders the service he is entitled to the pay. This is an agreement between the man who enlists and the .authorities and that agreement should be carried out.


William Cameron Edwards: How much was each
man promised by the Patriotic Fund?


Frank Oliver: I do not know.


William Cameron Edwards: Of course not; it would be impossible to answer that.


Frank Oliver: It is not impossible to
answer but I do not happen to he familiar with the grant. Unless the Patriotic Fund is considered to be an established grant supplementing the separation allowance there is a misunderstanding in regard to the Tights of those who enlist. That being the case, the man enlists on the understanding that his family is going to get so much separation allowance and so much from the Patriotio Fund.


William Cameron Edwards: No.


Frank Oliver: My hon. friend has not enlisted. That is the understanding of those who enlist, and they have the right when they enlist to have that understating. If those who control the Patriotic Fund say that is not the understanding then I say they are juggling with the men and are not treating them fairly. If the Militia Department is a party to that transaction

it is not doing its duty towards these men and it is not doing the country any credit.


James McCrie Douglas: For special service, such as forestry work, inducements are held out to expert men to join on the understanding that they will get this added pay and their separation allowance as well as participation in the Patriotic Fund. I have seen dozen of appeals made to men in Edmonton asking them to join and holding out this inducement to them. These men leave expecting that their wives and families will benefit toy this fund but after they get to England they find that the allowance is cut off. Sometimes they do not know it for months. I quite concur in what my hon. friend from Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) says-these men are enlisted under false pretenses. 1 do not know whethe1" the Militia Department is to blame, but I think there has been a misunderstanding and if so the matter should be righted.


Albert Edward Kemp: I do not recollect having seen any complaints from any. of the thousands of men enlisted in the forestry battalions in regard to this matter. My officers do not remember having received a complaint. I do not doubt that my hon. friend is correct in his statement, but no complaint has come to the attention of the department, so far as I know. The assigned pay, separation allowance and pay of a soldier are matters for which the Government is responsible. The Patriotic Fund is a voluntary organization whose practice is to supplement the pay and allowance given to the families. I am informed it is extended only to those who need a supplementary allowance, and in proportion to their needs. No soldier's family that did not need this extra allowance would make: a claim upon the Patriotic Association. If they did, they should not get an allowance.


James McCrie Douglas: The minister knows that a complaint is not likely to be made by a private soldier, under military rules. The position of the Patriotic Fund is, of course, as the minister states, but the fact remains that these recruiting officers induced men to join under false pretenses by giving them to understand that if they joined the Forestry battalions as experts they were to get $2.25 per day, and their wives and children were to receive the allowance from the Patriotic Fund in addition.


Frank Oliver: Who is to judge of the needs of the man and his family?


Albert Edward Kemp: The local branch of the Patriotic Fund Association who are in a position to ascertain the condition of each family.


Frank Oliver: Surely the best judge of the needs of the family is the man himself, and if he enlists on the understand ing that he is to receive certain extra pay, surely that understanding should be lived up to. It is not creditable to either the Patriotic Association or the Government that there should be any juggling between the Government and the Patriotic Association to mislead a man and deprive him of what he believed was to be given to him.


Six EDWARD KEMP:: 
William Cameron Edwards: The only attempted juggling in connection with this matter has been on the part of the hon. member for Edmonton (Mt. Oliver). Although he has kept himself in splendid practice along that line for some weeks or months past, he has made :a mighty poor fist of his attempt at, it to-night. He knows and the .people know that the Government has nothing whatever to do with, the Patriotic Fund. A recruiting agent asks a -man. to enlist. He Jjas a. right to tell that man that 'he will get certain .pay from the Government and a certain separation allowance, a definite amount. He may tell the man that, even though he might be in a forestry battalion, he .would have a claim on the Patriotic Fund if his necessities required it. That was all. But in regard to that, or any other statement of the kind, the Government is not responsible. The fund is .administered through the local boards in the different counties. In my county of Fron-.tenae the beeve of each township, is the man who will best know the rights of any case where .a call is made on the fund. Some families will get a certain amount per month, others in the same township will

get twice as much, because their need is twice as great. The fund has been long enough in existence to have people understand that it is administered quite independently of the Government. The Department of Militia has nothing whatever to do with it. I think it is entirely useless fox the hon. gentleman, from Edmonton to try to make out -that the department is responsible fox it.


Frank Oliver: I will make another attempt. It is a fact that the agent of the department secures the enlistment of the men. It is on the representations made by the agent of the department that the man enlists. This man enlists, not as a matter of charity, but as a matter of business. These men are experts and enlist for pay, as well as for the benefit of their country. They are given definitely to understand that they are to receive pay because of their expert ability, and after they have enlisted, according to the statement made by the hon. gentleman from Kingston, the Patriotic Fund Association goes into the matter and if this man's extra pay is greater than the allowance his family would receive from the Patriotic Fund, liis family does not get anything from the Patriotic Fund, and he, therefore, does not get any allowance whatever for his expert ability which the Government is getting the benefit of, and which they hired him for the purpose of getting the benefit of.


William Folger Nickle: I made myself anything but clear, if my hon. friend so understood m-e. What I endeavoured to say was this: in each district throughout 'Canada there is a>
determination by the Patriotic Fund as to what amount is reasonably necessary to meet living expenses. If a man enters into a contract with the Government for special pay from the Government, in addition to his military pay and allowances, he gets that special pay. The contract with the Government is respected in every detail, but if the amount he receives from the Government, as special pay or otherwise, is in excess of the amount that is decided throughout Canada as being reasonable by the Patriotic Fund for subsistence in each district, then the Patriotic Fund does not supplement in any way what the Government gives, but it has no power to take, nor does it intend to take, anything from what the Government has directed to give the man.


Frank Oliver: It comes exactly to what I said.


William Folger Nickle: Not at all.


Frank Oliver: That the expert man in a Forestry battalion in the end gets no more than the man who is not an expert.


William Folger Nickle: Not at all.


Frank Oliver: That is absolutely the hon. gentleman's calculation, and that is the complaint my hon. friend (Mr. Douglas) makes.


William Folger Nickle: The Patriotic Fund might give to a wife and family $10 a month in excess of ordinary pay. Take a private getting $1.10 a day and $20 separation allowance, if the man got $3 a day extra, that would be $90 a month; the Patriotic Fund could not deprive him of any p^rt of that $90. He would still get his military pay and allowance, and the extra $3. I am taking that as an illustration. They can in no way take from him what the Government directs that he should receive. They would simply say, "You are getting more than the Patriotic Fund was granting to those similarly situated," but the Patriotic Fund will not supplement the amount. The man might get more from the Patriotic Fund in certain circumstances than the other man.


Frank Oliver: He might and might not.


William Folger Nickle: It depends on the obligations.


Frank Oliver: But the principle is that the man who enlists for special pay, so far as the Dominion Government is concerned, is deprived of that extra pay by reason of the withdrawal of the Patriotic Fund, and the man who has no expert knowledge, as far as that is concerned, stands on an equality with the man who has expert knowledge. If the Government had no knowledge of that before, they have knowledge of it now, and if they have no co-operation with the Patriotic Fund, I say, for the sake of their own good faith, they should co-operate with it in that matter, and the authorities of the Patriotic Fund should know that they did make such and such a bargain with this man, and that the necessities of a family are to be governed by that bargain, and not by the views of the officers of the Patriotic Fund, who apparently pay no regard to the direction that has been made.


James McCrie Douglas: I know a case in point, bearing out what the hon. gentleman has said, of a man who enlisted, who had a wife and two children. Before he became a log setter he was getting $1.10 a day,

which is $34.10 a month, $22 a month from the Patriotic Fund, and $20 separation allowance, making $76.10 a month. With the extra pay he got at the rate of $1.75 a day, his pay came to $54.25, separation allowance $20, which gave him $74.25 per month, and he actually was getting less as an expert than he was getting as a private soldier drawing pay from the Patriotic Fund.


Albert Edward Kemp: I think it will be very desirable if any member with knowledge of such facts would draw the attention of the Patriotic Fund Association to them. That is an immense organization which does a great deal of good, and they are not trying to shirk their responsibility at all. They desire to act fairly with every family. I would ask my hon. friend, if at any time he has a family in mind, who, he thinks, are not being paid, to bring the matter to the attention of the hon. secretary of the association, Sir Herbert Ames, who sits in this House, or any officer of the association, and they will be very sympathetic in the matter.


James McCrie Douglas: Sometimes men do not care to go to the Patriotic Fund and state that their family requires the money. Here is a man who left a wife and two children and they are drawing $74.25. That is pretty fair remuneration, but that is not the point. He joined on the understanding that, as an expert log setter, he would get $1.75 a day and $20 a month separation allowance, and that his wife would participate in the Patriotic Fund, which he does not look upon as a charity at all, but simply as a part of his pay-he has been given to understand that in our province at least, I do not know what has happened in other sections. In our province, the Patriotic Fund money has been held, out as an inducement, just in the same way as the pay and separation allowance has been held out, and he has been induced to enlist on that understanding, and he does not consider he is getting any charity when he is drawing $22 a month for his wife and two children from the Patriotic Fund.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I wish to call to the notice of the minister, in view of the discussion we had about those different allowances, that in the case which I brought to his notice the man does not get anything from the Patriotic Fund or from the Red Cross for separation allowance.


Albert Edward Kemp: They get an allowance in lieu of separation allowance.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I was not aware of
that. The minister did not answer my request on behalf of these men, and I hope that, either now or when the matter comes up again, he will promise to give some consideration to it. It has been brought to my notice, and I should have brought it up in the House long ago, but was waiting for this opportunity to do so. I wish to impress upon the minister that the moneys these men get are not enough to support their family and themselves under present conditions.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: If the minister would pass all but one item on this page with which we are now dealing, and adjourn-
'Sir EDWARD KEMP: I sympathize with my hon. friend in his request. I may say we tried to proceed on Friday last, and my hon. friend from Pictou asked to let the Estimates stand, a:Sd we got on late this evening. We could leave one item open, so that we could discuss any matter.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I was assuming my hon, friend is coming back to-morrow.


Albert Edward Kemp: Yes.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: There are certain
explanations we must get to-morrow. T was only suggesting we should adjourn.


Albert Edward Kemp: My suggestion is that we leave one item on page 49 upon which we may later discuss anything.


George Perry Graham: How many officers have we now in Canada in charge o>f the work of securing recruits for home defence, how much money is that work costing per day, :and how many recruits have been secured through the efforts of those officers during the past 'month? A gentleman placed a case before one the other day; whether it was imaginary or real I should not like to say, but I think 'that there was some realism in it. He said that .a widow came to him who had $100 which she wished to invest in a wax savings certificate. She 'asked this gentleman, who was a friend of hers, what the Government would do with her $100. Well, he said, Colonel So-and-So will get $12 of it, Major So-and-So gets $8, Captain So-and-So a further amount-he gave a list of the names. He found that without going outside a radius of about five miles, the old lady's entire $100 would be taken up in allowances to officers who, to all appearances, were not doing any work; they were 'attending to their ordinary business every day. If that be the

case, my (hon. friend has a chance to effect a great economy in that direction.
The Kingston Whig charges that 'two- officers in Kingston-their names, df I remember correctly, were Brown and Wilson-are being retired to make way for political friends of the Government. Will the minister be prepared to give us a statement tomorrow with regard to this? I think the suggestion is reasonable that we .pass one or two items .and leave the rest. We will pass the first two items.


Albert Edward Kemp: The officers of the Canadian Defence Force are also employe^ for the purpose of recruiting in .the Canadian Expeditionary Force, -and have done a good service. Some men who -enlisted in the Canadian Defence Force have gone over to the Canadian Expeditionary Force. These officers are toeing gradually let out. After to-morrow none of them will toe getting pay.


George Perry Graham: This gentleman was
probably right, then.


Albert Edward Kemp: Sometimes there is an impression that because a man in uniform does not work with his hands, he is not doing anything. As to the officers at Kingston, I saw that item in the paper. There is absolutely no politics in the matter at all; the article is incorrect in more ways than one. A number of officers throughout the country are being let out now. Both officers to whom my hon. friend refers are employees of the Inland Revenue Department and have been drawing their full salaries from that department with military pay since the early days of the war. The services of quite -a few officers in different parts of the country are not needed now as much as they have been hitherto in the work of recruiting. We are trying to economize, and at the same time we are trying to act fairly to those men. They have done what the country has asked them to do, and if those whose profession was not that of soldier before the war toegan can secure employment now-they have better opportunity of doing that at the present time than they would be likely to have when demobilization is taking place after peace is declared-it is just as well for them to take that into consideration.


George Perry Graham: These officers in Kingston are not going to be replaced by other officers to do the same work?


Albert Edward Kemp: It is a matter of reducing the staff; we are doing it all over the country.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Will the minister let me know to-morrow whether the contracts for certain supplies for the Langara and Braemar Military Hospitals in British Columbia, tenders for which closed on June 6, have been awarded?


Albert Edward Kemp: That comes under the Military Hospitals Commission, of which Sir James Lougheed is the chairman.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: If it has relation to a military hospital attached to some unit, it wi-ll come under the Department of Militia.	.


Albert Edward Kemp: I shall be very glad to look it up, in any case.
Progress reported.



[Stage Direction]
' Mr. T. J. STEWART (Hamilton):	Mr. Speaker, with the leave of the House, I beg to move-
That the Order of the House for the third reading and passing of Bill No. 39, respecting the Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo Railway Company, adopted this day, he rescinded, and the said Bill replaced on the Order Paper amongst Private Bills for further consideration i.i Committee of the Whole at the next sitting of the House.
Motion agreed to.
On motion of Six Edward Kemp, the House adjourned at 11.53 p.m.
Tuesday, July 31, 1917.