1917-05-14

FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENT BETWEEN BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND C.P.R.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. Sir THOMAS WHITE (Minister of Finance) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 47, to facilitate certain financial arrangements between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and for other purposes.
He said: The object of the Bill is indicated in the title which I have just read. I may explain further, for the information of the House, that the Government of the United Kingdom, for the purpose of making financial provision for the prosecution of the war. has taken over and acquired, and proposes to take over or acquire, by compulsory purchase or otherwise, from persons resident in the United Kingdom, certain securities of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and of the companies whose lines are leased to that company. The purpose of the British Government in so taking over these securities is to make them available for raising money on this side of the Atlantic; in other words, to assist the exchange situation, which for a considerable time has been adverse to Great Britain. In order that the British Government may have securities which can be sold on this side of the Atlantic, they have requested the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to issue collateral trust bonds of the company payable in United States currency. These collateral trust bonds are to be exchanged by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, if and when requested by the Government of the United Kingdom, for the consolidated debenture stock and other securities payable in sterling which shall have been acquired by the Government of the United Kingdom in London. That, in brief, is the transaction, and it is in order to empower the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to issue these collateral trust bonds to an amount sufficient for the purpose of exchange with the British Government for these consolidated debenture and other sterling securities that this. Bill is introduced.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: As I understand the Bill as outlined by my hon. friend, it contemplates not to add to the liabilities of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, but simply to substitute one class of security for another?


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: That is the object of the Bill. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company has asked that the Bill be introduced in order to facilitate arrangements which it has been specifically requested by the Imperial Government to enter into.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: I am under the impression that in the report of the proceedings of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company the president is reported as having stated that, owing to the entry of the United States into the war and the loan to Great Britain by the United States of $7,000,000,000, the carrying out of the proposal as originally made was not now contemplated. Perhaps my hon. friend will be able to inform the House whether or not that is so.

Of course, if it is so, it would not be necessary to proceed further with this proposed measure.


William Thomas White: When I first
placed this Bill upon the Order Paper the matter was quite urgent, because an issue of these bonds was about to be made in New York. On account of the financial situation which developed by reason of the entry of the United States into the war, it was found inadvisable to proceed. No such issue is now in immediate contemplation, but I know that the British Government has asked the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to proceed with this legislation in order that it may be available if required.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.	-


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. D. TAYLOR (New Westminster):: I rise to a question of privilege and to call attention to an unusual episode which occurred during the debate in this House on the 1st of May., the speaker being the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Levi Thomson), who is reported in Hansard, page 1021, as follows:
I would not like to charge any man with disloyalty, not even those political colonels who strut around our country in the King's uniform, drawing big pay, and who have been on a free trip across the Atlantic to England or France, but who, the moment they smelt gunpowder, turned tail and skipped back home, leaving their men to go to the front without them.
If the audience to whom this is addressed, that is, the Canadian public,- had been present in the chamber and could have visualized the scene, it would not have heen necessary to make any remarks in answer to the hon. gentleman; but unfortunately, such is not the case, and his remarks, going to a public uninformed as to the source of a statement of this kind, are very mischievous and insulting to the commanding officers m Hie Majesty's army, of whom 1 have the honour to be one. I am sure, Sir, you will Tecognize that this statement is doubly out of order; in the first place as a flagrant breach of Rule 19 of this House, and in the next as a breach of that most particular rule of parliamentary debate which prohibits any reflection on the honour of officers of the naval or military

forces'. The hon. member for Qu'Appelle has not been present in the chamber since I arrived from British Columbia a week ago. but on a later occasion, when he is present, I purpose, with the permission of the House, making a motion which I think will he in order, namely: that that hon. member be ordered to withdraw these remarks and that they be expunged from the Hansard for the day named.
In the meantime, however, I think I am in order in making a personal explanation- at least personal to myself-as to how I, one of these political colonels, who no doubt was referred to (because the passage is meaningless if it does not refer to colonels who are members of the House of Commons) come to be here to-day.
I may say that I had as clear an understanding with the Department of Militia in this country .as any commanding officer could have, that I was raising a battalion with which I would serve at the front so long as the battalion served. As I have said in the House before, I recognized that military exigencies, when we arrived in England, made it seem necessary to break up the .battalion and to remove, not the commanding officer from the battalion, but the battalion from the commanding officer, which is the real process there. The brigadier in a case like that takes command of the whole battalion, calls out the officers, directs his sergeant-major to march away the men in accordance with the notice already given that those men are to be attached to a reserve battalion to go forward as drafts, and the commanding officer is left to wind up the affairs of the battalion. That is what occurred to me and to several other members of Parliament in command of battalions who arrived in England at the same time as I did. Subsequently we received, through military headquarters, a specific invitation from the Government of Canada to return to Canada to attend to our parliamentary duties. When that invitation was extended to me I replied in writing that I would be pleased to accept it provided that I was not required for military service. The rejoinder to that was information to me that my passage had been booked on a .steamer sailing a couple of days after I received the notice, and I think the same explanation applies to every other of those so-called political colonels. May I suggest, in conclusion, that if we desire to have His Majesty's uniform respected in Canada, by the people of Canada, it would not be out of place for the House of Commons to give the lead.



SHIPBUILDING IN CANADA.


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon.   W@: I had not (he pleasure of being present in the House on the 11th instant when my right hon. friend, the Minister of Trade and Commerce and acting leader of the Government (Sir George Foster) made a statement with regard to the building of ships, in particular, of wooden vessels, a matter which is of very great importance and which is exciting a great deal of interest, more especially in the Maritime Provinces. My right hon. friend is reported to have made this statement:
As to wooden ships, an arrangement is now completed and is being carried out whereby any body or any company that can undertake in a bona fide way to build wooden ships and to deliver them within a certain time, will get the opportunity of building the ships and will be assured that the ship will pay for the cost of construction, with a reasonable profit.
It would be desirable in the public interest that certain details, which are wanting in the observations of my right hon. friend, should be given to the House and to the country. As my right hon. friend is aware, there are in New Brunswick a large number of places, for instance, in the city of St. John, and ait other points along the St. John river, the Kennebecasis, the Mirami-chi, the Restigouche, and other points in the counties of Kent and Gloucester where in former days wooden shipbuilding was carried on very extensively, and where there are admirable sites for the building of ships. 1 think the only thing that is wanting is that definite information should be given to people who are interested as to the terms upon which contracts would be let and as to the standard of vessels which would be required, in order to induce quite a large number of persons to engage in wooden ship building. At present they have no information upon the subject; they do not know to whom to apply; they do not know the standard of vessels required, and it is desirable that such information should be made public. My object in bringing this matter to the attention of the House and particularly to the attention of my right hon. friend is that that information should be furnished as early as possible.


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: It is not an unreasonable demand that proper publicity should be given in relation to the question
which has been brought up by my hon. friend. In the first place I may say that inquiries addressed to the Munitions Board will bring all the information of the kind hinted at by my hon. friend. In the second place if it should seem advisable to make an announcement to the public in a fuller ox perhaps a more speedy way the Government. will confer with the Munitions Board as to such an announcement.


Wilfrid Laurier: I would presume that in a matter of this importance there must have been correspondence between the Imperial authorities and the Dominion Government. Perhaps the best way of making the announcement would be to bring down the correspondence.


George Eulas Foster: Such correspondence would foe between the British Government and the Imperial Munitions Board, which is entirely under the British Government. If any correspondence in reference to this matter has passed between the British and Dominion Governments, that of course could be brought down.


Wilfrid Laurier: One would not suppose that correspondence is taking place between the Imperial Government and the Munitions Board, of which this Government have no knowledge whatever; it would not pass over the head of this Government.


George Eulas Foster: Bless the heart of my right hon. friend! Surely he does not adhere to the position that the British Government either through an agent or otherwise cannot make a purchase or close a contract in this country without coming to the Dominion Government.


Wilfrid Laurier: Bless my
heart to this extent:	the British Government can, but I do not suppose that they do-


George Eulas Foster: They would
bother this Government to death if we were consulted every time.


Wilfrid Laurier: I dare say
they have done so, and that is why I want the correspondence.



[Stage Direction]
QUESTION AS TO AID BY CANADIAN GOVERNMENT.	.
On the Orders of the Day:
William Pugsley: Has the Government given any aid either by loan of money or otherwise to the Im-

perial Munitions Board for the building of wooden ships in Canada?


George Eulas Foster: I have given all the information on that head that it is possible to give. If my hon. friend requires the specific information he has detailed today, I will see how far his wishes can be met.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend stated in his remarks on the 11th instant that ships were being built in Canada and that every available shipyard was being utilized. I beg to differ from my hon. friend because I know of a number of shipyards where absolutely no work is being done. Would the minister be good enough to state to the House at an early date where shipbuilding is being carried on under the arrangement he has spoken of?


George Eulas Foster: It is not the
first time my hon. friend has differed from me, and found himself in the wrong in the end. I will try and get him all the information for which his ardent soul so longs.


William Pugsley: It is a reasonable soul too.



WESTERN COAL MINING.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. W. A. BUCHANAN (Medicine Hat):: Has the Minister of Labour any further information regarding the coal mining camps in the West? I read in the Montreal Gazette this morning that the District Union has called out the miners in all the camps in Alberta and Eastern British Columbia. The United Mine Workers of America control all the coal mining camps in Southern Alberta and Eastern British Columbia, and if this report is true the mines will all be closed and there will probably be a shortage of coal, because I do not think there is any coal stored in the West at the present time. It is also stated in the despatch that the Minister of labour has suggested a Royal Commission, and that the parties are considering it. The coal mining situation in the West is very serious, and I should like tp know just what the Government is doing. The minister might also state whether a communication has been received from the operators in regard to keeping open the mines and operating them; I saw a telegram to that effect in a western paper the other day. I would also remind the minister of what purported to be an .official statement from the Government in the latter part of

January last when this trouble began. A proposition was supposed to come from the Government that if the difficulties between the men and the operators could not be settled, the Government would take over the mines and operate them for the benefit of the people. I should like to know whether this is correct, and what action the Government purposes taking.


Hon. T. W. CROTHERS (Minister of Labour):: The representatives of the miners were in session in Calgary some five or six weeks, negotiating a new agreement. They finally came to an agreement, subject to ratification by the miners. It seems there is a certain provision in the constitution of the United Mine Workers of America whereby their representatives can only make a tentative agreement which becomes final on ratification by the miners. In this case the agreement was rejected by The miners by a large majority. The representatives of the miners then called a meeting of the local lodges to be held in Calgary last Thursday night, to decide what action should be taken, and so far as my dnfprma-tion goes they have not yet reached a conclusion. I sent a message to the president of the organization on Saturday night, but have not yet received a reply, so I am not in a position to say what course they intended to take.



REMOVAL OF RAILS FOR USE IN FRANCE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Wilfrid Laurier: I beg to call the attention of the Government to the following telegram which I have received:
Edson, Alta., May 12, 1917. Sir Wilfrid Laurier,
Ottawa, Ont.
Proposal to dismantle Grand Trunk west of Edmonton would destroy town of Edson and large settlement north of Grand Trunk which Canadian Northern could not serve. There is no settlement on Canadian Northern which Grand Trunk does not serve. Townspeople have submitted facts to engineer but outside settlers only learning to-day that serious proposal is made, many of them sending telegrams to Drayton, Cochrane and Foster. Will try to get copies and mail same to you.



F. U. LAYCOCK.

[Stage Direction]
May I ask the Government if they have received this complaint, and whether they intend taking any action to save this rising town?
Hon. FRANK COCHRANE (Minister of Railways):: We received three telegrams this morning, but I do not know whether they were from Edson or not. We have a man

out there to see that no towns will be deprived of railway communication. The Grand Trunk Pacific rails were taken up in this case because we received a request for rails of the same pattern and boring as were sent over before.



SHORTAGE OF SALT FOR FISH CURING.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. A. K MACLEAN (Halifax):: I desire to refer for a moment to the question that was brought up the other day by my hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) as to what arrangements the Government are making for securing tonnage for the transportation of salt from Mediterranean ports to ports in the Maritime Provinces. A serious condition is likely to prevail in the Maritime Provinces shortly on account of lack of the salt which is required in the fish business. In the Maritime Provinces 15,000 or 20,000 pounds of salt are required annually in the fish business, and it looks at the moment as if there will be great difficulty in securing the necessary supply. I would point out that Admiralty transports are frequently arriving at Halifax from Mediterranean ports without cargo. Many of them arrive with mud ballast, which must cost the ship money to load and unload. Many of these ships have been offered as high as 35 shillings a ton to bring salt to the maritime ports, but they have declined to do so.
It happened just recently that a ship left the Mediterranean in ballast, having passed quite close to a port where a cargo of salt might have been procured. The situation is extremely grave in the Maritime Provinces, for the reasons I have given. It seems to me that the matter is not being fairly dealt with by the Admiralty, or by some person who should exercise authority. There would seem to be no reason why ships coming from Mediterranean ports to the Maritime Provinces in ballast should not carry salt for which they receive very favourable freight rates indeed. I hope the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) will be seized of the importance of the matter and will do everything possible to secure ships to carry salt.


George Eulas Foster: Everything that can possibly be done from this side has been done with that object in view. The authorities at home are fully seized of the necessities of this side, and the transport
authorities are quite willing that vessels should bring salt to their ports of destination. But they can not be expected to waste too much time going distances in order to reach the points to which the salt is consigned. That is the only difficulty that intervened. The matter has been thoroughly represented; the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen) while in London has taken the matter up with the authorities themselves, and I have information that they are perfectly accordant with the idea and will in every case carry it out. There may be some difficulty with regard to freight rates, I do not know about that; but I imagine they are not unreasonable in the freights they charge.



SENTENCE ON A RECRUIT SUSPENDED.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. OLIVER:: I desire to draw the attention of the Government to an item that appeared recently in an Ottawa paper as follows:
George Shore, 131 Slater Street, who pleaded guilty before Magistrate Askwith to a charge of horse stealing was allowed to go on suspended sentence this morning when he produced attestation papers showing that he has been accepted for overseas service with the Canadian Engineers.
If I am not out of order I desire to say in my judgment this is neither in the interest of justice nor in the interest of military efficiency.



INQUIRIES FOR RETURNS.

Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR (Guysborough):: 1 draw attention to the fact that a very large number of orders for papers which have been passed by the House, some over a year ago, have not been complied with. I looked over the book and found that no less than thirty-eight orders for papers passed in the year 1916 have not yet been fulfilled, and that a large number ordered this year are in the same position. For example, there is an order moved for by myself and passed by this House on 31st January last, relating to the commandeering of Canadian ships. Another related to Orders in Council imposing restrictions on the Minister of Militia, and was passed by this House on 31st February last. I hope the ministers concerned will look into this matter and especially with regard to those returns ordered more than a year ago. In order to make the matter more definite, I will read a list of the returns ordered last year and not yet brought down:

Returns ordered by House of Commons in 1916 and not yet brought down.
Return Ordered by
Mr. Gauvreau	
Mr. Law	
Sir Wilfrid Laurier Mr. A. K. Maclean. Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Mr. Oliver	
Mr. Sinclair	
Mr. Deslisle	
Mr. Kyte	
Mr. Macdonald	
Mr. Sinclair	
Mr. Ethier	
Mr. Ethier	
Mr. Deslisle	
Mr. Carvell	
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Return relating to.
Order
Passed.
Employees of Department of Inland Revenue, :
1911-16	
Disbursements of Ward Fisher, 1912, 1913______
Correspondence in re appointment Leon Roy..
Enlistment of Civil Servants	
Expropriation of lamP of Joseph Griffin, Valcartier	
Field Kitchens	'_____
Feb.
Feb.
Feb.
Feb.
Feb.
Feb.
3.
3.
7.
7.
7.
10.
Persons of German or Austrian birth in employ of Post Office	
Employees in Inside Service	
Feb.
Feb.
14.
14.
Tenders for clothing supplies, Militia Department	
Men recruited for the Navy	\
Number of employees in Post Office Department
at specified dates	
Employees in Militia Department	
Number of French Canadians enlisted in each
province	
Buildings leased by Government	
Payment of money at Amherst by Militia Department	
Expropriations at Valcartier	
Correspondence with Mr. Arthur Hawkes in re
Feb.	21
Feb.	23
Feb.	23
Feb.	28
Feb.	28
Feb.	28
March March	
Mr. Lanctot	
Mr. Murphy. . . . Mr. A. Chisholm
Mr. Paquet	
Mr. Macdonald. .
Mr. Copp	
Mr. Fortier....
Mr. Pacaud	
Mr. Copp	
Mr. Turriff....
Mr. Turriff....
Mr. Ethier	
Mr. Sinclair....
Mr. Oliver	
Mr. McCrea	
Mr. Graham	
Mr. Michaud. . . .
Mr. Devlin	
Mr.- Turgeon. .. .
Mr. Lanctot	
Mr. Lanctot	
Report on Immigration	
Lawyers in the province of Quebec entrusted
with cases	
Toronto Harbour Works correspondence	
Margaree River mail route	
Lawyers employed in province of Quebec	
List of Canadians employed in England	
Conductors on the Intercolonial Railway	
Sessional clerks	
Mail contracts in county of Dorchester	
Cost of military barracks at Amherst	
Post Office clerks in Outside Service	
Clerks in the Department of Railways	
Rural Mail Delivery, Two Mountains	
Medical Officers of Militia Staffs in Nova Scotia.
Squatters rights, Banff Hot Springs	
Embargo Tan Bark	
Lease of Militia department for building in
North Bay	
Correspondence re Antoine Lavesque, Edmundston	
Correspondence re Post Office at Aylmer	
Dismissal of Augustin D. Lanteigne	
Re Statutory Holidays	
Promotion of civil servants	
March 1.
March 1. March 1. March 6. March 6. March 13. March 20. March 20. March 27. March 29. April 12. April 12. April 19. April 19. May 1. May 1.
May 1.
May 1. May 1. May 8. May 15. May 15.
I am going by the record in the book kept in the record office, which shows that no return has been made to any of this long list of motions that were moved and passed in 1916. I hope the matter will receive the attention of the various departments. There may be some returns which .have been made since this list was prepared-I am not sure-but I know a good many have not been returned of which I have personal knowledge.


Mr. McCRANEY:: On the 31st of January this year I moved for a return of the correspondence connected with the exemption 
from military service of the Doukhobors, and also the correspondence in connection with the withdrawal of the Northwest Mounted Police from Alber.ta and Saskatchewan. I would direct the attention of the Government to these returns, and I would ask that they be brought down as soon as possible.


Frank Oliver: I mentioned the other day that it had been stated in the press that the reply of Dr. Bruce to the report of the Babtie Commission had been placed in the hands of the Minister of Militia. I wish to know if it will be laid before the House, if so, how soon, and will it be printed?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: In answer to my hon. friend from Edmonton (Mr. Oliver), I may repeat what I said a week or two ago in the House. Dr. Bruce wrote me a letter saying that he had mailed or sent his reply to the Babtie report. His letter did not bear any date, nor was it made clear by the letter where he mailed it from. But the report itself, which he said in his letter he had sent, has not reached the department. The moment it reaches the department I will have it laid on the table of the House.



PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 10, to incorporate the Grand Lodge of the Canadain Association of Stationary Engineers in the Dominion of Canada.-Mr. Fripp.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on Bill No. 41-Mr. ^-Blain in the Chair-respecting the Grand Trunk Pacific Branch Lines Company-Mr. J. A. Currie.
On secfion 2-extension of time for completion of certain authorized railways:
Wilfrid Laurier: I am very
pleased to see in the House my hon. friend from Simcoe (Mr. Currie), who is in charge of this Bill and who takes an interest in the Grand Trunk Pacific railway. These lines mentioned in the Bill are intended to be feeders of the Grand Trunk Pacific. Is my hon. friend aware that at the present time the Government are dismantling the Grand Trunk Pacific and destroying it east and west? Since my hon. friend takes an interest in the road, I hope he will see that the Government do not carry any further their nefarious operations, but keep up the railway. Otherwise these branches if built will be of no use.


Mr. GERMAN:: As this Bill, if passed,
will very largely affect the railway situation as reported on by the Royal Commission appointed some time ago to investigate the whole railway and transportation situation in Canada, I think we should know from the minister whether or not he has considered the majority and the minority reports made by the Royal Commission, and if he is prepared to inform the House whether or not he will advise the adoption of either of those reports; and if not what the Government propose to do in connection with the railway situation in Canada, which is certainly in a very serious condition, to my mind a very dangerous condition, in relation to the beat interests of Canada. I think that, at least before this Bill is read the third time, we should hear from the minister the policy of the Government, as this Bill gives the Grand Trunk Pacific Company further large powers for building branch lines, many of which will come directly into competition with branch lines of the Canadian Northern in that locality. The majority of the Royal Commission recommend that the Government should acquire both of those railway systems and thereby do away with the necessity of duplicating these branch lines. Before anything further is done in regard to the 'construction of branch lines, I think we should know what views the Government have, if they have yet arrived at a conclusion in the matter, and what is likely to 'be done to alleviate the very serious railway situation in Canada.


Francis Cochrane: I beg to say that I
have read both the majority and the minority reports, and an announcement will be made in the House very shortly of what we propose to do.


Mr. CURRIE:: I was asked to take charge of this Bill, having had charge of some of these Bills before for the Grand Trunk Railway. I recognize the force of the remarks of the right hon. leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier). At the same time, as the Government are going to bring down a policy on the railway situation
4 p.m. very shortly, I hardly think that policy should be discussed in connection with this Bill. So far as I know, no action is going to be taken by the Government.- These charters are expiring and this company comes to this honourable House and asks the House to renew them. A large sum of money is involved even in the passing of this Bill. I am well aware that the roads referred to here are perhaps not in as good a position financially as they might be. All of these matters, however, are questions beyond the scope of this Bill, and all I can do is to ask the House to pass the Bill, Should the Government see fit to take over the road before this Bill reaches its third reading, I am satisfied the House will remit the fees to the Grand Trunk Company, and that no further action will be taken. All I can do as promoter of the Bill is to forward it in good faith to the company that asks ns to renew it.
Sir WULFRID LAURIER-: I did not make these remarks with any view of opposing

the Bill; on the contrary, I am quite in sympathy with it, and with the building of branch lines of the Grand Trunk Pacific railway. I still believe it is a good enterprise. What I had in mind was to enlist the sympathy of my hon. friend, who is a supporter of the Government, and to ask him to see that they did not dismantle and destroy that property which he is now asking us to make better and more useful. My hon. friend is aware that in the East the Grand Trunk Pacific railway has been largely damaged and destroyed. The grades have been destroyed, and now the rails are being taken up from the sidings. In the W est the rails are being taken up from the main line. If the road is further subjected to this process of destruction, it will not have the same value. Therefore it is that I urge on my hon. friend to do all in his power to prevent that process going any further, and to see that the Government keep the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway going. I hope that my appeal has not fallen on deaf ears.


John Allister Currie: My hon. friend's remarks have not fallen on stony soil, I can assure him.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported.

[Stage Direction]
Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.
INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-ACCIDENTS. Mr. BOULAY:
1.	How many accidents have taken place causing damages on the Intercolonial Railway between Campbeliton and Montreal, from January 1 to April 1, 1917?
2.	What was the amount of damages in each case?
3.	What was the cost of taking the snow away from the cuts of Metis and St. Fabien, Rimouski County, in the winters of 1915-16 and 1916-17?

Mr. PARDEE:: 1.	What number of names has the National Service Commission received in answer to cards sent out?
2.	How many of these names are classified as military, agricultural, shipbuilding, and munitions prospects, respectively?

3.	How many are engaged in work that is regarded as non-essential in war times?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	1,549,360.
2.	A- Military, (a) Ages 17 to 30, single,
no dependents, 58,897.	(b) Ages 17 to 30,
single, no dependents, but engaged in agriculture, shipbuilding, fnunitions and mining, 40,185.	(c) Ages	31	to 45,	single,	nodependents,	13,624.	(d)	Ages	31 to	45,single, no dependents, but engaged in agriculture, shipbuilding, munitions and mining, 11,525.	(e) Ages 17 to 45, single, withdependents,	50,675.	(f)	Ages	17 to	45,married, with dependents, 92,469.	(g) Ages
17 to 45, married and single, with dependents, but engaged in agriculture, shipbuilding, munitions and mining, 97,095. Total military prospects, of which 40 per cent are engaged in agriculture, shipbuilding, munitions and mining, 364,470.
B.	Agricultural.-The entire male population might be considered agricultural prospects- No special classification.
C.	Shipbuilding.-184 persons gave their trade [DOT] as shipbuilders and indicated that they were not now engaged in working at that trade.
D.	Munitions.-3,010 persons stated they were toolmakers, toolsetters and millwrights not engaged on munition work. Many have been so employed since they forwarded their cards.
3.	Under the terms of Orders in Council already laid upon the Table of the House, each Director of National Service is authorized to determine whether or not in any particular case the services of an individual are more important to the State in a civil than military capacity. Having regard to this provision, no effort has been made up to the present to determine what work may or may not be regarded as non-essential. The circumstances of each particular case have been considered as occasion necessitated-


GOVERNMENT RAILWAYS-PURCHASE OF CARS.
Mr. GRAHAM:: Was duty paid on the 595 cars which the Minister of Railways says were purchased by the Canadian Government from the United States since January 1, 1916?


Francis Cochrane: Of the 595 cars purchased by the Canadian Government from the United States since January 1st, 1916, the following have been delivered and duty paid thereon: 1 day coach, 2 baggage cars,
1 diner, 1 tourist, 1 diner.
Duty -will be paid on the balance of the cars as they arrive.


George Perry Graham: In reply to a question, the Minister of Railways informed the House that there had been purchased in the United States for the use of the Canadian Government railways since 1916, 500 coal cars, 18 tourist cars, 2 baggage cars, 50 sleeping cars, 23 first-class and 2 mail and express cars. What was the total cost of these cars?


Francis Cochrane: The following is a
statement of the total cost of the equipment referred to in the above question:
Number.	Class of Car.	Price.
500 . . .		. .$217,500
10 . . .		
IS . . .		
23 . . .		First-class		
2		
2 . . .		. . 4,000
50 . . .		
605		$439,700
' THE STEAMER COURCEiLETTE.


*Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	How much was paid by the Government for the new steamer Courcelette, used by the Harbour Commission of Quebec?
2.	Who purchased said steamer?
3.	Was there any commission paid?
4.	If so, how much?
5.	From whom was said steamer purchased?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	$27,000.
2.	Quebec Harbour Commission-
3.	No.
4.	Answered by No. 3.
5.	The Canadian Salvage Association.


THE STEAMER BELL.
*Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	How much was paid last year by the Quebec Harbour Commission for the use of the steamer Bell?
*	2. How many days was the Bell so used by
tile Harbour Commission, and why was it used?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	$630.
2.	15 days, pulling pontoon off ways, handling grain elevator, putting tug Diver on ways, etc.


DEATH OF PTE. J. F. MITCHELL.
*Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Has the attention of the Government been called to the following 'despatch which appeared in the Evening News of Montreal, on Wednesday, March 28, 1917 :-
Wet Canteens Responsible.
London, March 27.-1 n the House of Commons last night, Mr. Macpherson said an inquiry was being held into the death of Pte. J. F. Mitchell, aged twenty, a Canadian, from alcoholic poisoning in a Surrey camp. A private member protested against drink temptations being put in the way of young Canadians in camp. Mr. Macpherson said that wet
canteens were introduced in camps at the request of the Canadian authorities.
2.	Are the alleged facts herein stated correct?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Depositions at coroner's inquest show clearly that any liquor which Pte. J. F. Mitchell ma/ have received was obtained and drunk at public house two miles from camp where Mitchell was quartered.
The General Officer Commanding Canadians, in October, 1914, believing that it would be more in the interest o_f Canadian soldiers to have the sale of intoxicating drinks under better control, sent a despatch to the War Office containing the following:
" I have just arrived back from Plymouth and find that it is absolutely necessary that there should be canteens for the sale of beer in camp. The men, as I anticipated, finding no liquor in camp canteens, go to the neighbouring villages and get bad liquor."


MR. J. T. ROBINSON.
Mr. TURRIFF:: 1.	Who recommended J. T. Robinson, of Kamloops, B.C., as a recruiting officer?
2.	When was he appointed?'
3.	To what regiment was he attached?
4.	What rank did he hold?
5.	How long did he hold the position?
6.	How much money did he receive for pay, allowances and expenses, respectively?
7.	What results did he achieve?.


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	J. T. Robinson was appointed January 29, 1916, upon instructions of the Minister of Militia and Defence.
2.	Date of appointment-January 29, 1916.
3.	Recruited for 172nd Battalion and other units.
4.	Held rank of Honorary Captain, Canadian Militia.
5.	Held appointment until August 2, 1916.
* 6. Pay and allowances of his rank, $824.25; travelling expenses, $104.70.
7. It is impossible to tabulate the exact results obtained by regimental recruiting officers. Captain Robinson was employed on general recruiting work for the battalion, organizing recruiting meetings and concerts. There is no doubt that he obtained a considerable number of recruits for the battalion through the meetings and concerts which he organized, and also through his personal influence.


COLONEL JOSEPH GLEN.
Mr. CRUISE:: 1.	What amount, if any, has been paid by the Government to Colonel Joseph Glen, who crossed to England from Saskatoon with the 9Sth Battalion?

2.	In what capacity is Colonel Glen now
employed?	.
3.	What amount, if any, has been paid to the family of Colonel Glen for separation allowance?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	Pay and allowances of his rank, $4,091.35, up to date of sailing for overseas as officer commanding 96th Battalion, 26th September.
2.	Lt.-Colonel Glen is serving with the 5th Reserve Battalion, in England, as a Lieut.-Colonel.
3.	$1,562.


WESTERN SCHOOL LANDS.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	What is the value of the school lands in the Provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba, respectively?
2.	What amount in cash is held hy the Dominion Government as proceeds from this fund, and what is the share of each province of this amount?
3.	What is the amount of deferred payments to this fund, and what is the share of each province?
4.	What is the total amount of school lands not sold in each province?
5.	Has the Dominion Government been asked by any of the Provincial Legislatures to transfer to the province the entire control and administration of the School Lands' Fund?
6.	If so, what action does the Government purpose taking?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	The approximate value of school lands in Manitoba is $63,948,800; in Saskatchewan, $84,210,000, and in Alberta, $77,986,000.
2.	The principal moneys to the credit of the School Lands' Fund on the 31st of March, 1917, were as follows: Manitoba, $4,068,350.37; Saskatchewan, $3,891,343.21; Alberta, $3,099,222.01.
3.	Statement being prepared.
4.	The approximate area of school lands unsold in Manitoba is 7,321,000 acres; in Saskatchewan 7,703,420 acres, and in Alberta 7,114,147 acres.
5.	Yes.
6.	The matter is now under consideration.


INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-FREIGHT CARS.
*Mr. LEMIEUX:: Is the Department of Railways and Canals aware as to whether or not orders for goods and merchandise are refused by Montreal firms because the Intercolonial Railway is not sufficiently equipped with freight cars?


Francis Cochrane: The department is not aware of any shortage of cars in Montreal, in fact the department is advised by the general manager that the supply exceeds the demand at present and has done so for the past three weeks.


BEAR RIVER WHARFINGER.
Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	Who js wharfinger at public wharf, Bear river, N.S.?
2.	When was he appointed, and at what salary ?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	Mr. Arthur Dunn.
2.	September 12, 1913; his remuneration is 25 per cent of the wharfage collections.


BEAR RIVER POST OFFICE SITE.
Mr. KYTE:: 1.	What amount has been spent on Post Office site, since purchased hy the Government, at Bear River, N.S. ?
2.	What amount has been spent on said site since March 1, 1915, to May, 1917?
3.	What are the names of persons employed and the respective amounts paid to them, and the dates on which they were paid?


George Eulas Foster: Question requested to stand while information is being procured.


ST. ROCH TRAVERSE LIGHTKEEPER.
Mr. E. LAPOINTE:: 1.	Who was the lightkeeper in the upper end of St. Roch Traverse, in the county of L'Islet?
2.	What date was fixed by the Department of Marine and Fisheries for the closing of said light in the fall of 1916?
3.	Did the lightkeeper remain on duty until the said date?
4.	If not, at what date did said light cease to be of any help to navigation in the fall of 1216?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	Alfred Fournier.
2.	December 23.
3.	No.
4.	December 11.


OKANAGAN INDIAN RESERVE.
Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	How many acres of land, if any, were taken out of the reserves of the Okanagan Band of Indians, for the right of way of the Canadian Northern Rail.viy?
2.	How much money has been paid over hy the railway for this right of way?
3.	How has this money been distributed?
4.	Plave any individual Indians been paid any of this money?


Mr. ROOHE:: 1.	56.29 acres were taken for the right of way of the Canadian Northern railway from the Okanagan Indian reserve, No. 1 of the Okanagan band; and 17.56 acres were taken from the Duck Lake Indian reserve, No. 7 of the said band.
2.	$4,695.15 was paid for the right of way through the Okanagan Indian reserve No. 1, and $4,468 was paid for the right of way

through the Duck Lake Indian reserve No. 7.
3.	Okanagan Indian reserve No. 1, of the $4,695.15 received $475.96 was placed to the credit of the trust funds of the band, and $4,219.19 was paid to individual Indians for improvements. Duck Lake Indian reserve No. 7, of the $4,468 received $2,043.90 was placed to the credit of the trust funds of the band, and $2,424.10 was paid to individual Indians for their improvements. 50 per cent pf the $2,043.90 was distributed among the Indians by the Indian agent, and all moneys received on account of improvements were paid by the department direct to the individual Indians entitled thereto.
4.	Payments for improvements on the Okanagan Indian reserve were divided [DOT]among the following individual Indians:
Herman Gregoire	$ . 752 50
Joseph Jimmy	 703 19
Alexander Chilahitsa .. .. 2,763 50

Payments for improvements on the Duck Lake Indian reserve were divided among the following individual Indians:
Victor Boary	$ 900 00
George Alexis	
542	50Mrs. Christina McDougall.. 570 00 Enoch Abraham	
411	60


Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	Was Gaston Louis removed from his position as Chief of the Okanagan Band of Indians? If so, why?
2.	By whom was he deposed, and for what reason?
3.	Who has been appointed the Chief in place of Gaston Louis?
4.	How was this appointment made?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes. For his tendency to permit disorder on the reserve; unfairness in his dealings with other Indians; having, without the consent of the band and of the department, taken upon himself to allot land in the reserve to outsiders; obstructing constables in the discharge of their duties on the reserve, and for insubordination.
2.	By the Governor in Council for the reasons given in answer No. 1.
3.	No appointment has been made.


Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	Did the Department of Indian Affairs sanction the lease of a part of the reserve of the Okanagan Indians, known as Alexander ranch, to Dr. Henderson, veterinary surgeon, of Armstrong?
2.	If so, how many acres were included in this lease?
3.	What was the annual rental arranged for?
4.	Did Dr. J. A. J. McKenna subsequently report that the granting of this lease was not for the benefit of the Indians?
5.	Has the lease since been cancelled?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	About 2,000 acres.
3.	$200 per annum, and seeding down to alfalfa all of the lands suitable for such cropping.
4.	Yes.
5.	Yes. Cancellation to take effect loth October next, after Dr. Henderson has harvested his crop of wheat.


Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	Was Dr. J. A. J. McKenna instructed to make a full investigation of the affairs of the Okanagan Agency?
2.	If so, did he make an investigation?
3.	If so, was the investigation by Dr. McKenna still going on when he retired from the Government service?
4.	Who has taken up the investigation since Dr. McKenna retired?
5.	What instructions were given to Dr. McKenna's successor?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes. .
2.	No.
3.	No.
4.	Chief Inspector W. E. Ditchburn.
5.	To inquire into the affairs of the Okanagan Agency.


MATAPEDIA PUBLIC HIGHWAY.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	How much has been expended on the Matapedia public highway in the Matapedia valley, Quebec, to date?
2.	Who was in charge of this work in Rimouski county, and what amount was paid him?
3.	Is the work completed?
4.	If not, is anything to he done this year?
5.	What was the respective mileage in Rimouski and Bonaventure counties in which work was done, and what amount was expended in each county?
6.	Who was in charge of the work in Bonaventure county?


George Eulas Foster: Question requested to stand while information is being secured.


STEAMER ELAINE.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	How many passengers and tons of freight were carried by the steamer Elaine between Campbellton and Paspebiac, and from Paspebiac to GaspS and vice versa, in 1916?
2.	Does the Government intend to have this service put into operation earlier this year than in 1916?
3.	If so, at what date?

4.	Is the Government satisfied that last year's service was satisfactory?
5.	At what intermediate points will the Elaine call this year?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	The traffic between intermediate points is not given. The returns only show traffic between the terminal ports, that is, Campbellton and Gaspe, as follows: 145 passengers; 536 tons freight.
2.	Yes.
3.	A contract stipulating for a service to commence on the 15th May, 1917, has been forwarded to the contractor for signature, but has not yet been returned.
4.	Yes, while in operation.
5.	Dalhousie, Carlton, Maria, New Richmond, St. Charles de Caplan, Bonaventnre and New Carlisle; Paspebiac, St. Godfroi, Port Daniel, L'Anse au Gascon, Newport, Pabos Mills, Little Pabos, Grand River, Little River East, Cape Cove, Perce, Barachois de Balbaie, Balbaie, Douglastown and Grande Greve.


HANTS COUNTY APPLE INSPECTORS.
Mr. PROULX:: 1.	Who are the apple inspectors in the County of Hants, N.S. ?
2.	What salary has been paid per year to each inspector?
3.	What amount has been paid to each inspector for expenses in each year since his appointment?


Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	S. C. Dimock, Windsor, inspector; Albert Armstrong, Falmouth, inspector; Frank Toomey, Windsor, assistant inspector; Thos. Archibald, Ellerhouse, assistant inspector.
2 and 3. Messrs. Dimock and Armstrong were paid at the rate of $125 per month, and Messrs. Toomey and Archibald at the rate of $50 per month during the period of their employment. They were employed during the following periods and the amount of their expenses each year were:
S.	C .Dimock-	AmountYear.	Period.	of Expenses.1913-	14-Sept. 1 to March 14	$315.101914-	15-Sept. 1 to March 31	
228.591915-	16-Sept. 1 to March 31	
274.341916-	17-Sept. 1 to March 31	
227.64
Albert Armstrong-
1914-	15-Sept. 1 to March 31	$373.05
1915-	16

Sept. 1 to March 31	319.28
1916-	17-Sept. 1 to March 31	 315.42 Frank Toomey

1913-	14-Sept. 8 to March 14	$188.001914-	15-Sept. 1 to Feb. 28	
160.501915-	16-Sept. 15 to March 31 .... 203.831916-	17-Sept. 15 to March 15 .... 323.62
Thos. Archibald-
1913-	14-Sept. 8 to March 31	$205.001914-	15-Sept. 1 to Feb. 28	
265.701915-	16-Sept. 15 to March 31 .... 298.901916-	17-Sept. 15 to March 31 .... 427.25


WINDSOR TRIBUNE BUILDING.
Mr. PROULX:: 1.	What amount, if any, has been paid the owners of the Windsor Tribune building, Windsor, N.S., for rent, by the Militia Department?
2.	What amount, if any, has been paid to the Windsor Tribune for printing and advertising since 1911, to March 31, 1917?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	Rent, $330.
2.	Advertising and printing, $20.25.


WINDSOR, N.S., WHARF.
Mr. PROULX:: 1.	Was a contract for building a wharf at Windsor, N.S., and dredging, made with W. Shaw? If so, when?
2.	How much, if any, has been paid said Shaw on such contract?
3.	Has it been cancelled?
4.	If not, is it to be carried out?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	No contract for a wharf, but a contract was made in 1915, with Mr. W. W.. Shaw to remove 5,000 cubic yards of material at 54 cents a yard.
2,	3 and 4. The work was completed and Mr. Shaw was paid the sum of $2,085.29.


VALLEY RAILWAY.
Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	Has the Department of Railways and Canals taken any steps since April 1, 1916, towards the construction of a bridge across the St. John river at or near Andover, in connection with the Valley Railway so-called?
2.	If so, how much has been expended thereon?
3.	Is it the intention of said department to commence construction of said bridge during the present fiscal year?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No.


F. C. McNEILL.
Mr. CARVELL:: 
Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	$6,300.
2.	$900 per month.
3.	There is no information in the department as to whether Mr. McNeill is the owner of the said steamer Lillie or not.
4.	Answered by No. 3.


VICTORIA BREAKWATER.
Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	What are the names and salaries of the inspectors now employed upon the Victoria breakwater at Victoria, B.C.?
2.	(a) Who is the present resident engineer, and (b) what salary does he receive?
3.	When were the services of the late resident engineer dispensed with?
4.	Who is inspecting the fill now being deposited by the contractors, Grant Smith and Company ?
5.	Is a launch employed by the Government about the work?
6.	If so, how much is being paid per month for the said service?
7.	When was the said breakwater completed?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 
ST. MAURICE RIVER IMPROVEMENTS.
Mr. BUREAU:: 1.	What sums of money have been expended in construction of piers and improvements generally, during the years 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915 and 1916, on the St. Maurice river from its mouth to Grancles Piles station?
2.	Are the St. Maurice works still under the control and management of the Government?
3.	If not, why?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 
BRITISH GOVERNMENT WHEAT COMMISSION.
Mr. TURRIFF:: 1. Who are the men acting as Commissioners for the British Government in the purchase of wheat in Canada?
2.	Where is their headquarters?
3.	Are they acting in connection with any department of the Government of Canada?


George Eulas Foster: The Wheat Com-miesion is an appointment of the British Government, has its headquarters in London, and is not acting in connection with any department of the Government of * Canada.


THOMAS P. X. BERLINQUET.
Mr. BUREAU:: 1.	Is Mr. Thomas F. X. Berlinquet, of Three Rivers, in the employ of any of the departments of the Dominion Government?
2.	If so, (a) in what department is he employed, (b) what are his duties, and (c) what salary does he receive?
3.	In what district does he perform such duties?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 

QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.


Mr. CHARLES M ARCIL:: 1.	From whom was the timber and lumber, used on the Cross Point, Quebec wharf, purchased since 1912?
2.	Were tenders called for?
3.	If so, was the contract awarded to the lowest tenderer? If not, why not?
4.	Who was the foreman of this work, and how much was he paid in all and per diem?
5.	What rate of wages were paid to the labourers employed?
6.	What was the total value of such timber and lumber so purchased for this work since 1912?


George Eulas Foster: Question requested to stand while information is being secured.



UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.

Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: For a copy of the correspondence between the Prime Minister and the ex-Minister of Miltia and Defence, which led to the latter's resignation or dismissal from the Government.


William Ashbury Buchanan: For a copy of all letters, reports, communications and documents passing between the Minister of Labour and the Department of Labour and the officials of District No. 18, United Mine Workers of Alberta, and the officials of the Alberta and Eastern British Columbia Coal Operators' Association, concerning the requests made by the Miners for an increase in wages due to the increase in 'the cost of living, between September 1, 1916, and the present time.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports received by the Government sin2e September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the dredging and building of piers at Mabou Harbour.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports received by the Government since September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the extension and repairs to Finlay Point Wharf.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports received by the Government since September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the Port Hood Whirf.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports received by the Government since September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the extension of the pier at Margaree Harbour.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports received by the Governm3nt since September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the breakwater at Margaree Harbour.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports received by the Govern nent from September, 1911, to the present time, in any way referring to the opening of Inverness Harbour.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports in any way referring to dismissal, retirement or resignation of John McDonald, as janitor of public building at Inverness, and the appointment of his successor.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports in any way referring to the dismissal or retirement of D. Mc-Dermid, Superintendent of Fish Hatchery at East Margaree, and the appointment of his successor.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, correspondence, petitions, telegrams and reports between the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and any person or persons in any way referring to the removal of the salmon nets on that portion of the coast of Inverness extending east and west from the mouth of the Margaree River.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: For a copy of all communications, letters, reports, petitions and other documents on behalf of the Physicians and Medical Associations of this country, asking for the repeal of The proprietary or Patent Medicine Act and the presentation of a new Act on the matter in order to render more efficient the control of these medicine preparations, and to add on the prohibition list such drugs or medicines as are generally dangerous to health and conducive to certain criminal practices.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports received by the Government since September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the wharf at Marble Mountain.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports received by the Government since September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the extension and repairs to Craignish Wharf.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports received by the Government since September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the extension and repairs to McKay's Point Wharf, Inverness County.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports received by the Government since September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the appointment of a man in charge of the storm signals at Grand Etang and Margaree Harbour.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports between the Department of Public Works and the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and any person or persons, since September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the appointment of a Wharflinger at Margaree Harbour.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports between the Post Office Department and any person or persons since September, 1911, to the present day, in any way referring to the Postmasters at Friar's Head and Friar's Head Chapel.


Mr. COPP:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and reports between the Department of the Naval Service or the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and any and all persons in connection with the seizure of certain fishery boats, fishing tackle and equipment being used in the illegal fishing of lobsters in the Straits of Northumberland in the fall of 1916, together with a copy of the evidence taken before one M. G. Teed, Esquire, acting as a commissioner to inquire into this matter, and his report and finding thereon.


John Howard Sinclair: For a copy of all petitions, correspondence, reports and other papers and documents in the possession of the Post Office Department dated since September 1, 1916, relating to the changing of the mail service between James River, in the County of Antigonish, Nova Scotia, and Aspen, Guysboro county, N.S.


Mr. CARVELL:: For a copy of all papers, letters, telegrams, accounts, vouchers and cheques in connection with the repairs to the Salmon River Viaduct, on the National Transcontinental Railway in New Brunswick.


George Ewan McCraney: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, reports and all other documents relating to the payment of $215.30, made to Wm. Badger, of Out-lock, Saskatchewan, for relief work and seed grain in the years 1914 and 1915.


George Ewan McCraney: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, reports and all other documents relating to the payment of $112, made to F. H. Forgie, Elrose, Saskatchewan, for relief work and seed grain in the years 1914 and 1915.


William Chisholm: For a copy of all letters, petitions, correspondence, telegrams and reports of all kinds in any way referring to the dismissal of the postmaster at Centreville East, N.S., and the appointment of a successor.


George Perry Graham: [DOT]
For a copy of the judgment delivered by Mr. Justice Cassels on the 24th day of January, 1917, in the matter of fixing the price to be paid by the Government for the Quebec, Montmorency and Charlevoix Railway; the Quebec and Saguenay Railway, and the LotbiniSre and Megantic Railway, under the statute of last session, Chapter 22, 6-7 George V.



CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT-DIVORCED PERSONS.

[Stage Direction]
On Notices of Motions being called:
Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (St. John): Before proceeding to Notices of Motions, I would like pro forma to have Public Bills hnd Orders called for the purpose of making a formal motion for a committee to consider Bill No., 4. This was the understanding with the Minister of Justice, and no doubt my hon. friend the Solicitor General is aware of the circumstances. It was understood when this Bill was given its second reading that it would go to a special committee.
The House proceeded to Public Bills and Orders and went into committee on Bill No. 4, to amend the Criminal Code (Mr Pugsley), Mr. Rainville in the Chair.
William Pugsley: I beg to move:
That a select committee of seven members of this House be appointed by Mr. Speaker to whom shall be referred Bill No. 4 to amend the Criminal Code, the duty of which committee shall be to consider the provisions of the said Bill and report its opinion thereon to this House, together with such amendments, if any, as the said committee may deem it desirable to make thereto.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: I am aware that it was the desire of the Minister of Justice that this Bill be referred to a committee. I presume that the wording of my hon. friend's motion is the usual wording for reference to a special committee.


William Pugsley: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: Then I have no objection to the motion carrying. I do not think the members of the committee have been discussed yet. I think that was left over for the Minister of Justice?


William Pugsley: Quite so. Perhaps the Minister of Justice will suggest some names.
The House resumed and proceeded to Notices of Motions.



VOTES FOR OVERSEAS SOLDIERS.


Mr. MICHAEL STEELE (South Perth) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, the Government should introduce legislation at this Session which will extend the franchise to every British citizen who enlisted with the Canadian Forces for Overseas Service, and who was a resident of Canada at the time of enlistment.
He said: Mr. Speaker, matters relating to suffrage are always of considerable in-

terest, not only to Parliament, but to the country generally. Some one 'has said that the destruction or salvation of states depends upon the matter of regulating the suffrage. For that reason I think it very important at this time to have the matter discussed and dealt with by this House which is referred to in the resolution I have the honour of proposing. The main object of this resolution is to grant the suffrage to all soldiers who are under twenty-one years of age, and thus to put them on a parity with all others who are fighting for our country. From the days of ancient Greece and Rome, when suffrage was first introduced, there has been .a gradual extension of the privilege, being at first very restricted, but gradually growing wider and wider as the years have passed. All countries, however, still have their restrictions on suffrage. For instance, every country requires that the voter shall be a subject or citizen of the country in which he votes. Also, that every voter shall be a resident of the country. Many countries still retain the property qualification, limiting the suffrage to those citizens who possess a certain amount of property. All countries, I think, have an age qualification, although this varies much in the different countries. In Denmark the age at which one is first allowed to vote is 30 years; in Belgium, Japan and Norway, 25 years; Austria, 24 years; Hungary, 20 years. I think that in all other countries the age is fixed at 21 years. Other requirements are provided in various countries. Some countries, for instance, require that the voter shall be able to read and write. In some countries-and strangely, I think, although probably there is good reason for it, in three of our allies, Russia, Italy and France-soldiers are not allowed to vote at all, unless the law has been changed since the outbreak of the (present war.
In general terms, granting the suffrage to any person presupposes that that person is possessed of sufficient intelligence to be aoie to give a vote which will be for the benefit of the country, and that he will bring sufficient knowledge and intelligence to bear on the process of voting to enable him to do that which is best for the country. It also presupposes that .the voter has sufficient interest in his country's affairs to be willing to cast his vote and to cast it in a way in which he, at least, believes to be in the best interest of that country.
It seems to me, however, that while all these qualifications may serve a good purpose, and while some of them may be abso-
[Mr. Steeled
lutely essential, at this day -there is a higher qualification which has been established by the present war, and that qualification is the ability and willingness to give service to the state. I believe, that we in Canada especially should add that qualification to the others which we have m force and that the suffrage should be granted to many c: those who have shown their willingness and ability to serve the state, and especially those who are in our army to-day and are giving us such splendid service. It was these young men under twenty-one years of age, who at present by our Franchise Act are deprived of the privilege of voting, that I had specially in mind when introducing this resolution. The Soldiers' Voting Bill, passed in 1915, has this for its first clause:
Every male British subject of twenty-one years of age or upwards serving in the military forces of Canada in the present war (hereinafter called "volunteer"), who, within six months immediately preceding the date when he was appointed to or enlisted in such forces, had been resident in any electoral district in Canada for a period of not less than thirty days, shall be entitled to vote in the electoral district in which he was last so resident in the manner hereinafter set out, notwithstanding his absence from such electoral district or from Canada: Provided that if any person was, at the time he was so appointed or enlisted, qualified to vote in any other electoral district in Canada, he shall vote in such other district only.
You will note that in that clause several restrictions which apply to other voters have been removed in- the case of the soldier. For instance, the soldier who is twenty-one years of age or upwards may vote even though he is absent from the country, which the civilian is not allowed to do. He may vote notwithstanding that he has no fixed residence at the time of enlistment, and no civilian is -allowed this privilege. So we see, by the Soldiers' Voting Bill -some of those in the army were given special privileges which those not in the army do not enjoy. So, when I ask by this resolution that the franchise -shall be extended to include others in the army, I am not proposing anything that is so very radical.
In 1915, there were few who thought that the needs of the war would be so great as they have proven to be. At that time, judging by the discussion in this House, it was generally thought that if Canada supplied
50.000	men she would not require to supply more. No person, I think I may safely say, thought that within two and a half years Canada would have am army of over
400.000	men. When we have such a large number enrolled in the overseas forces, it

means that there is a correspondingly large number of young men under twenty-one who are giving the best service to this country that it is possible to give, yet who are denied the privilege of taking part in the affaire of this country when they return home, or when an election shall come on. Among those who are twenty-one years of age, I think I may safely say, are some of the best boys Canada has produced. And not only that but I think I can well say that, accordingly to the view of our people, the Canadian boys under twenty-one years of age are equal in intelligence and ability to the young men of any other counry in the world. Amongst these are several thousand students from,,, our colleges and universities, young men who cannot be said not to possess sufficient intelligence to be able to vote, or young men who take so little interest in the affairs of their country as to be disqualified from voting. I believe that these young men have all the qualifications, intellectual and other, that are required to make them voters of the very first class.
When the call came in 1914 for men to serve our country, there was no question then regarding the ability of boys under 21 years of age to serve. When the call came for men to protect our country, our homes our property and our lives, and to maintain the integrity of the British Empire and preserve the freedom of Canada, no person would stand up and say: We can not accept the services of any man under 21 years of age. Why should we apply that rule after they have fought and endured, and yea, sacrificed even their lives? Why should we apply that rule, after these men under 21 years of age have done such splendid service for their country, why should we say to them: You can have no further active participation in the affairs of this country. Many of them will not return, many of them will leave their bodies on Flanders fields, but large numbers will return to this country, large numbers will be residents of Canada, large numbers will be residents of the various electoral districts, every one of them will be British subjects, and how can we say to them: We are quite willing that you should fight for our land, we are quite willing that you should face the enemy, we admire what you have done at St. Julien, Courcelette, and Vimy Ridge, we give you all honour for your splendid services in France and on the continent of Europe, but we can not see our way clear to granting you the right and the privilege
of marking the ballot when you return to Canada until you have become a year, or two years, or three years, older and until you have convinced us that you possess sufficient intelligence to mark that ballot properly. Is that the treatment that we are going to give these splendid boys to whom we are so deeply indebted when they return? I can not believe it is. These young men have assisted in making a new Canada. They have assisted in preserving the freedom of the institutions of Canada but they have also done splendid service in creating a nation that is going to be a new Canada. We are looking forward to greater opportunities and privileges among the nations of the world and we are looking forward to being a Canada with a history of sacrifice and heroism that will be a source of pride to our people for generations to come That Canada is possible partly as the result, at least, of the exertions, the efforts and heroism of the boys fighting in France today who are under 21 years of age, and this Parliament should not, say to these boys: We are indebted to you for the service you have performed there but we can not extend to you the rights of citizenship when you return home.
The next Parliament of Canada will have largely to deal with problems and questions which have been created by this war. It would be only fair and right that the men who have created the conditions which that Parliament will have to deal with should have the right to say who shall be the representatives of the Canadian people in the Parliament which has to deal with these problems which they, by their splendid efforts, have created. I think we should not say to these young men that we are willing that they should direct the bullets intended to destroy the enemy but we are unwilling that they should mark their ballots which will be the instruments by which the welfare of Canada shall be maintained for the next few years at least. Each man who has fought should have the right to say how the fruits of his efforts are going to be dealt with. For that reason I hope that this resolution will be passed and that the franchise will be extended to these young men. I believe they will exercise their franchise with at least as much intelligence as the average elector in the country, that they will exercise it with as deep an interest in the affairs of the country as the average elector will, and I would feel disposed to go further and say that they will be amongst the most intelligent and

the most interested young Canadians that we will have in this country.


Mr. J. H. FISHER (Brant):: I have listened with great interest to the remarks on this resolution that have fallen from the lips of the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele). I am glad to have the opportunity of saying a few brief words in support of the resolution, which I trust will commend itself to the House. In round numbers, probably 400,000 of the men of Canada have enlisted for active service overseas. A considerable percentage of this number is possibly composed of young men under the age of 21 years, who, therefore, are not entitled to vote. Many of these young men, some to my personal knowledge, had taken an active part in all matters relating to the welfare of Canada previous to their enlistment. In regard to their loyalty, there can be no question. The way in which they rushed to enlist at the beginning of the war makes it clear that every one of them is intensely loyal. Many have returned to this country maimed and wounded, many have laid down their lives, and many more to-day are fighting out battles in France. It seems to me that if there is any one class in this country who are entitled to a special right to be consulted, and to express their views on the affairs of this country at the present time, it is these young men who so willingly volunteered, and were ready to lay down their lives for their country. More particularly, it seems to me, at a time when we are confronted by great war problems-and after the war these problems will be even more difficult than they are now-should these valiant young patriots have s.ome voice in the settlement of these questions. 'If they are old enough to fight, and if they -are old enough, if need be, to die for their country, they are old enough to vote. These young men have matured, not by age, not by years, tout by hard and bitter experience; and I think it wpuld toe a hardship of -the worst kind not to allow them the right to exercise their franchise when they return to Canada.
The resolution as introduced by the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele) includes all men of British birth who have enlisted for pveTseas service, and this, of course, includes the Indians in this country, who have again shown their loyalty by enlisting in large numbers from all parts of this Dominion. From the reserve of the Six Nations, in the county I ' represent, some 400 young Indians haye enlisted. One fMr. Steele. 1
of the first from the county of Brant to lay down his life for his country was a young Indian, Lieutenant Cameron Brant, a member of the 114th Regiment, and a direct de-seenident of the Great Indian chief, Joseph Brant, after whom the city of Brantford and the county of Brant are named. As you are aware, none of these Indians are now entitled to the franchise, and it seems to me that it>
would be a mere act of justice. that those at least who have enlisted should be allowed the right to vote. But I would go further than this; I would say that the Government should, at a very early date, take into their earnest and serious consideration the matter of restoring the franchise to the Indians of this country, the franchise which was given to them by a former Conservative Government and which was taken- from them toy the late Administration for, possibly, some reason, but for what good reason I cannot imagine. I do know this, that there are no similar number of white men in this country or in. any other country who would exercise the franchise more intelligently or more honestly than the Indians of the Six Nations reserve, and I believe~ that what I say in regard to the Indians of the Six Nations will apply also to the Indians of all other reserves in this country. I should toe very glad to know that the full franchise was to be restored to them. But, in any case, I trust that the franchise will at least be given to those who have enlisted- I should like in this connection to apply to these brave young Indians who have gone forth to battle for the Empire, the words of the late gifted Indian poetess, Pauline Johnson, herself one of the Six JNations. In a poem composed by Pauline Johnson, the following words occur:
Few of them have the blood of kings,
And few are of courtly birth,
But none are vagabonds or rogues,-Of doubtful race and worth.
And each has one credential,
Which enables him to brag,
He fought for right and Canada,
And upheld the British Flag.
I should be remiss in my duty if I did not say a word in regard to the splendid work that has been done along patriotic lines by the Indian women on the reserve.
I would simply say, in a word, that the work they have done has not been surpassed in any part of this Dom-5 p.m. inion, and I trust- that whqn woman suffrage comes, as I have no doubt it will come, the Indian women on the Reserve will be accorded

equal rights with their white sisters. They are well deserving of it, and I believe they will exercise the franchise just as well as the white women could or will. I am quite sure that this resolution of the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele) will commend itself to the members of this House, and I also feel quite sure that the Government will give it their very earnest and careful consideration.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK (Red Deer):: Mr-Speaker, I should like, in a word, to put myself on record as being very heartily in favour of the resolution before the House. The qualification for voting in Federal affairs is that of manhood suffrage. We have an arbitrary method of defining the time at which a male reaches the point of manhood. I do not think that any of us would seek ito apply that artificial method to the men who have gone to the front and say that there are men in the trenches from Canada who have not reached the age of manhood. I do not think that any one would deny the possession of manhood to every man who hae voluntarily gone to fight for Canada at the front. So that if manhood suffrage be our test of the right to exercise the franchise, we certainly have men who, although they are not twenty-one years of age, have lived amply up to that qualification. I have not the slightest hesitation in giving adherence to the resolution, and I support it most heartily.
Mr. GEORGE A. ELLIOTT (Middlesex North):	Mr. Speaker, I wish to join with
the hon. member from North Brant (Mr. Fisher), and also the hon. member from Red Deer (Mr. M. Clark) in. saying a few words of appreciation of the resolution introduced in this House by the hon. member from South Perth (Mr. Steele). I appreciate the meaning of the resolution more fully than I have words to express. When we take into consideration the fact that over 400,000 of Canada's sons have responded to the call for service for our King and country, and that many of them are under the age of twenty-one, we realize that these men, though under twenty-one years of age, should be entitled to the same privileges as other citizens of our land. When the British Government and the Canadian Government appealed to their subjects throughout the Empire and asked for volunteers, they called for men between the ages of eighteen and forty-five years; they fixed the minimum age at eighteen years. No doubt, the authorities felt that many a
young man under 21 throughout the Empire was just as fit physically and mentally to be a soldier as wene older men. I believe that fully one-third of the men who enlisted in the Middlesex regiment from my county and who have gone overseas, are under twenty-one years of age. Many of our young men, as has been stated by previous speakers, have made the supreme, the greatest possible sacrifice. Some of them will never return to the land from which they went. I could, if I so wished, mention several mothers in the community in which I live who are to-day mourning the loss of their sons, many of them under twenty-one years of age. I remember well, during August of last year when our home regiment was leaving our county, that a great many people gathered at the station to bid our boys farewell. I can see at this moment the anxiety shown by those mothers and parents on behalf of their sons. I can also see them bidding their sons good bye-some of them for the last time-and sending them away with their good wishes and their prayers. I listened the other day with a great deal of regret to the remarks made by two or three members of the Opposition, in which they attempted to reflect upon the character and habits of those young men while in England and France. During the six years that I have had the honour of being in this Parliament, I have never appreciated anything more than the words of the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Michael Clark) when he said, a few days ago, that it was not for us as Canadian citizens who had stayed at home to dictate for a moment as as to what our boys should do. Would any member of the Opposition-indeed, any man in this House or out of it- dare to say to the mothers who'had sent their boys of eighteen overseas-boys who had gone voluntarily; boys who had the spirit to go and fight for their fcountry-that these young men were not entitled to the privileges which other men of Canada have?
I wish to say a word-I was glad that the member for Brant (Mr. Fisher) mentioned it-regarding the Indians of my county. In the county of Middlesex we have a number of Indians, many of whom were among the first to respond to the call for service overseas and a number of whom have laid down their lives for their country. For a number of years those men have not had the privilege of the franchise such as the rest of us enjoy. They are an intelligent race of Indians, having their schools and their institutes. They are capable; they

are good business men. An indication of their worth and their efficiency is found in the fact that although our reserve is a small one, nearly 100 of them have joined the colours and have gone overseas. I do think that those men should have the privilege of a franchise; I do think that they deserve it. We have in Canada many foreigners of all nationalities who really do not know anything about Canadian affairs or Canadian institutions and who, in a sense, are not helping to build Canada up or to make it great.	They have not
contributed to any extent to the different patriotic funds, nor yet have they enlisted. Yet these men, after they have lived in this country a certain length of time, are allowed to vote. Under the present Franchise Act our young men under 21 years of age cannot vote. Let me say, in conclusion., that I am perfectly in sympathy with this resolution. I believe that every man who has a uniform on, and is serving his country, though he be a boy in years, is entitled to the same privileges which the rest of us enjoy.


William Pugsley: I am sure that the hon. member for Bonaventure (Hon. Charles Marcil) must feel extremely gratified because of the very strong expressions which have fallen from the lips of hon. gentlemen opposite this afternoon in reference to the extension of the franchise to all our .soldier boys. The House wall remember-you, Mr. Speaker, will especially remember-that on the occasion of t'he consideration of the Soldiers' Voting Bill the hon. member for Bonaven-ture and other members on this side of the House very strongly took the ground that any man who enlisted, whether he were under or upwards of 21 years of .age, should be allowed the privilege of voting. The hon. member for Bonaventure contended that if the Canadian boy was fit to be a soldier and to go to the front; if he had sufficient maturity, physical and mental, to engage in the battle for the Empire, he was qualified to exercise .his franchise and to have a voice in deciding how the affairs of Canada as .a part of the Empire should be conducted. The hon. Minister of Justice, who had charge of the Bill, strongly opposed the proposal made by the hon. member for Bonaventure, a proposal which was embodied in the form of an amendment. The Minister of Justice urged very strongly, indeed, that the age limit should be 21. The Solicitor General also urged very strongly that the Bill was right; that there was no reason why Parliament should fix

the age for exercising the franchise at less than 21 years; that the law applying to civilians in the matter of voting should apply also to those who were engaged in the military service. Perhaps I may be pardoned if I refer to the speeches that were made on that occasion. I do so because these gentlemen who to-day are arguing in favour of extending the privilege to our boys under 21 years of age then took a different view; they stood behind the Government in voting upon the amendment moved by the member for Bonaventure. If I am not mistaken, all the gentlemen who have spoken so warmly to-day in favour of this change in the law supported the Government in the view which they took on that occasion. At page 2,344 of Hansard, 1915, I find the following:


Mr. MARCIL:: Is the minister in a position to tell me what is the youngest age at which these volunteers are accepted? Is there an age limit fixed by the department?


Mr. DOHERTY:: I cannot say absolutely that there is an age limit fixed by the department, although I think that ordinary soldiers enlisting are accepted at 18 or 19 years of age, but there are buglers, drummers and boys acting in different capacities.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Are there any scouts ?


Charles Joseph Doherty: There are no boy scouts that I am aware of.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I think there are.


Charles Joseph Doherty: There may be ; I only say that there are none that I am aware of. But there are quite young boys in the position of doing military service, in regard to whom I think the general consensus of opinion would be that they would hardly be of an age at which they could be expected to exercise a mature judgment.
I am not sure whether the Minister of Inland Revenue expressed any opinion on that occasion, but he has recently argued that a man must attain the age of thirty years before he can safely exercise his judgment in such matters. The Minister of Justice proceeded:
Unless for very strong reasons to the contrary, it seemed to those who were responsible for the introduction of the Bill that we must have some degree of maturity, and although it may perhaps be a little beyond what is absolutely required, we thought it the safer course to adhere to the age fixed in the law generally as being the age limit.
Then the member for Bonaventure .said:
Eighteen is the age fixed in the Militia Act for enlistment; I am speaking of the volunteer and not of buglers, drummers or boy scouts. In this case you may have a large number who have enlisted, but who, not having taken the oath as to age, would not become voters. An injustice is being done to the boy of 18, 19 or 20 years, who has enlisted, and who undergoes all the hardships and risks of war, if he is cast aside. I think he will feel that injustice very much, because he knows that he can get the Victoria Cross, the highest distinction for

*valour, no matter what age he is. I am in favour of the principle of giving the soldier a vote if he is a voter. I am also in favour of giving him a vote if he is not a voter, because the service he is rendering to his country entitles him to that consideration,
One would have thought that that argument, made so eloquently by the hon. member tor Bonaventure, would appeal to the hon. gentlemen who have addressed the House in support of this resolution. Mr. Marcil continued:
but I am opposed to the Bill, because I do not think it guarantees that the ballot which the soldier casts will be the ballot which we will receive here. A very great injustice is being done to the boys of over 18 years of age by depriving them of their votes. The minister knows the old verse:
" Mais aux ames bien ndes,
La valeur n'attend pas le nombre des an-ndes."
Boys of 18, 19 and 20, who have the spirit to enlist for the defence of their country, ought to be trusted td cast an intelligent vote. Napoleon Bonaparte was a general in chief of the army at 25. A young man of 18 should be given this right.
The following are the worjls of the Minister of Justice in reply to what many of us would regard as a very convincing argument:


Charles Joseph Doherty: The boy under 21 years who, being a soldier, is not given the right that is given to a soldier who is over 21, suffers exactly the same injustice as the boy in civilian life of 19 or 20 suffers as compared with the man over 21 who may be in precisely similar circumstances of merit or demerit and who has his vote while the boy under the age of 21 has no vote. It is not only in military careers, but I think we have had cases of early maturity in civil life, one very prominent case being that of a gentleman who became Prime Minister of Great Britain at the age of 21. If the reason of the hon. member is right as regards military circles it ought to be equally right when applied to civilian circles. If it be a good argument that, because we find exceptional cases of maturity developed beyond what one's years would apparently lead one to look for, we should make a general rule departing from the age of 21 years, it would be as applicable to civil life as to military life. I am sorry to hear the expression used that any injustice is intended because after all from the voting point of view all that is to be said is that the boy of 18 does not gain something as compared with the soldier of 21 which he would not have gained had he not been a soldier as compared with any other man in the ordinary walks of life and 21 years of age. Perhaps we have not given, but we have not taken away.
Then Mr. Marcil says:


Charles Marcil: My sole reason for saying
that we should give these boys the right to vote is because they have enlisted. That is the main reason for the wrong, if wrong there be. I do not see why a boy who is capable of bearing arms and serving his country at the age of 18 or 19 years should be debarred from exercising the franchise. The issues of the election may be more fully comprehended by
the young man than the man of maturity. I am sorry that the minister has not extended common justice to those in the ranks above 18 years of age.
My hon. friend the Solicitor General was not convinced by the argument of the hon. member for Bonaventure, because on page 2347 of Hansard he is reported to have said:
What I'arose chiefly to do was to put before the committee my own view as to the question raised by the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) and repeated by the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver), as to the extension of the franchise to all soldiers although they have not reached their majority. I take the view that the Bill in that respect is right. I do not look on the extension of the franchise to the soldiers as in any way a quid pro quo, as in any way a benignant action on the part of the state to him in virtue of his soldiership. It appears to me that in regard to the British franchise the law presumes, that if the individual man has a real patriotic interest in his country's affairs, and secondly, if he is competent to express that interest, that man is entitled to vote. We take certain precautions to ascertain whether he lives up to these two requirements-whether he has a real patriotic interest in his country's affairs and whether he is competent to express that interest. We say that he must be a resident, that he must live so long in a certain locality. If he is a rolling stone, we cannot presume that he has that fixed and determined interest that he otherwise will have. On the other hand, in order to ascertain whether he is competent to express his vote or not, we fix the age of twenty-one as the age of maturity at which he arrives at competency. Then we say that a judge by virtue of the restraints of his office is incompetent to express his interest. Then we come here and make an extension of the franchise in one respect; that is, we do not insist upon the condition of fixed residence. To that extent and no more, there is in this Bill an extension of the franchise.
The question came to a vote on April 14, 1915, as hon. gentlemen will see by a reference to Hansard on page 2538. Mr. Marcil then moved, seconded by the hon. member for Sunbury and Queens (Mr. H. H. McLean) :
That this Bill be not now read a third time, but that it be referred back to the Committee of the Whole House, with instructions that they have power to amend the same by striking out the words "twenty-one" in the first line of section one and by inserting the word "eighteen" in place thereof.
Mr. Marcil made this further appeal to the House:
The House has already heard the arguments in support of this suggestion. I contend very respectfully that a man who has attained 18 years of age, who has undergone medical inspection, who is mentally and physically qualified to take up arms in the service of his country overseas, and who is willing to make the sacrifice of his life, if necessary, to defend the cause which he has at heart, should be on an equal footing with men of the age of 21. If the soldier who has attained the age of 21

years? is to have the advantage of exercising the franchise, then it is an unjust and unfortunate discrimination that others who are serving their country should be deprived of that right. I think that this view will appeal to the whole of young Canada, which is taking a deep and patriotic interest in this matter.
This amendment was negatived on division. Id I spoke at all upon the subject *on that occasion-and I think I did-I took the view that the franchise sjiould be given to young men of 18 years of age. I know I entertained that view, but I-think all the members on the other side of the House who spoke on this subject expressed views in support of the position taken by the Minister of Justice and the Solicitor General, opposing the amendment moved by my hon. friend from Bonaventure. I am glad indeed to see that some hon. gentlemen opposite have changed their minds and that they are now entirely in accord with the views which were then put forward by the hon. member for Bonaventure. It will afford me great pleasure to support the resolution which has been moved by the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele) who has spoken so eloquently, and I think the speeches which have been delivered so far have presented unanswerable arguments in favour of the resolution.


Arthur Meighen: Mr. Speaker, the difficulty of reaching absolute fairness in the framing of any law is perhaps beyond the capacity of mortal man. In the framing of a franchise law the difficulty of approximating absolute fairness is greater perhaps than in any other sphere of legislation. The resolution introduced by the hon. member for South Perth covers a subject which in its wider scope had been under discussion in Parliament about two years ago. The hon. member's resolution refers only to one branch of the subject that was then before us for legislation, namely, as to whether we would be justified, in view of the very great services rendered their country by those of our military forces who are under the age of 21, in assuming they were both capable of exercising and entitled to the exercise of the franchise. At that time, differences of opinion were expressed in Parliament, and at that time, let me frankly say, I expressed the view that we could not assume both of the qualifications which I thought we should assume before we admitted to the franchise any class of our population.
We undoubtedly could assume that all who had enlisted for service overseas had at 
heart the best interests of their country, and from that standpoint they are undoubtedly entitled to all in the way of franchise that their country can give. I did not feel, however, that we could assume further, that they had by the fact of enlistment reached that age of maturity or that stage of mental development that we could differentiate them from the rest of our population in regard to the franchise. There seems, so far as the debate has gone, to be rather a general impression that we might have well gone farther, or at all events, in view of the far greater sacrifice than was then anticipated by many, we might now reconsider our position and do even more for the soldier than we were prepared to do then. That is undoubtedly the earnest and sincere desire of the mover of the resolution, who has stated his case briefly, concisely and fairly, and the desire in the main of those who have supported him. I do not intimate for one moment that the hon. member for St. John was not sincere in his position that these of our soldiers should be entitled to the franchise. But I do dread what seems to be the manifest truth, that he is not afraid to raise party divisions and antipathies in this House, even though they might result in the wreck of the legislation that he deems so dear. He endeavours to intimate that we on this side of the House took a very, very strong stand and argued most strenuously against this proposal, while on the other side of the House the case was entirely different. Two years ago he tried to make the same question of it, tried with all his might and all his ingenuity; he even went so far as to say that those who took a different position were occupying absurd ground, were arguing absurd contentions in the House. It may surprise hon. members who have not looked up the debates to lear-n that it was not a party question by any means, that there were differences of opinion on both sides of the House, and that on this side of the House the most pronounced, and may I say, the most emphatic, opinion that was expressed in agreement with the present position of the hon. member for South Perth was expressed by the Prime Minister himeelf. It may-surprise even the hon. member for St. John to know that his own distinguished leader who sits to his left (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) spoke words consistent only with the then reading of the Bill, saying on that occasion that the Bill was right and should not be amended. I noticed the hon. leader of the Opposition applauding the hon. member

for fit. John in his reference to myself this afternoon, but I think it would be well for him to read Hansard, 1915, at page 2207, where he gave utterance to the following words when this very point was under discussion :	*
We have laws and regulations the result of the wisdom and experience of ages, which have determined that we may expect the blood and the sacrifice of the soldier and yet that the soldier is not entitled to cast a vote in the administration of the country. That is so in this country; it is so in Great Britain ; it is so in the United States. There are uniform laws governing the exercise of civil and political rights which no nation has yet contravened.
True words, and at no point in his utterances did he even intimate the opinion that it would have been wise for us at that time to contravene those laws and to admit men under 21 years of age to the franchise.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.
#


Arthur Meighen: But it is still more interesting in view of what has just been said by the hon. member for St. John, to read the opinion given at that time by another very distinguished member ,of the Opposition, the hon. member for South Renfrew (Hon. Mr. Graham). He did not disguise his view at all. He expressed it very fairly, and certainly just as strongly as did any hon. member on either side of the House. The hon. member for Sputh Renfrew used the following words on page 2350 of Hansard, 1915:
I am strongly of the opinion that 21 is the proper age. I have not heard any good reason...
Although he had heard the hon. member for St. John on several occasions.
I have not heard any good reason advanced why we should change from the age limit that we have always had. After mature deliberation it has been decided in this country that a man has not reached the proper years of maturity at which he is able to vote until he is 21. I do not think the fact of his going to the front changes the principle at all, for a man of 21 years of age is the same at the front as he is at home, loyal and brave and patriotic though he may be.
I d.o not need to go any further, to make it clear to the hon. member for St. John that in: the former debate it would have been scarcely safe for him to characterize those who held views different from his own as absurd, or for him in this debate to endeavour to part the two 'sides of Parliament on such an issue as this; whether we ought to admit men under 18 to the franchise because they are serving their King.
It may be recalled that the Bill introduced in the old House was not a Government. measure. It was introduced by another member and was referred to a committee, which committee, if I recall correctly, dealt with all subjects then befpre Parliament having to do with the franchise, and on the report of the committee the Bill was taken up by the Government and became law.
Mr. PU.GSLEY: Taken up as a Government measure.


Arthur Meighen: Became a Government measure, but it was not introduced as such. On the introduction of the Bill, and later during the debate on this point the Prime Minister expressed the view that the other would have been the better course, but undoubtedly he assented constitutionally to the Bill in the form it is in now. I have not the committee's report before me, but while I am on the point let me proceed to the vote described by the hon. member for St. John. It was a vote that was not a vote. There was no vote in Parliament. Why did the hon. member say that to the House of Commons?


William Pugsley: I said the amendment was lost on division.
Mr. MEIGHEN; The hon. member said there was a vote. I remember when this discussion was up before, I criticised the hon. member for St. John for characterizing those who expressed views different from his own as absurd, and he met me by saying just as he does now, that he had said no such thing. I recommended him to read Hansard on that occasion, and he saw I was right. Let him read Hansard -again to-morrow and he will see I am right again.	*


William Pugsley: I quoted from Hansard and I used the words " the amendment was lost on division." I used those very words.


Arthur Meighen: We will just have to
leave it to the great arbiter that always decides. Hansard will show- that the hon. member at one stage of his remarks said that the question came to a vote.


Wilfrid Laurier: Not a recorded vote. Every question is decided by a vote, but not necessarily a recorded vote.


Arthur Meighen: I have never understood that when a motion is lost on division it is the same as when a motion is actually voted on and lost. For example, would the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) want it recorded that he had voted against his expressed convictions? .


Wilfrid Laurier: The only difference in (the deciding of questions in this House is, not that some are decided by a vote and some are decided otherwise, but that, while all are decided .by a vote, in some cases the vote is recorded, and in other cases it is not recorded.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think ithat is the theory at all. A motion may be lost on division without a vote. The effect of that is 'to declare that large numbers do not vote. There is only one way by which a member can vote, and that is by recording his vote. Mr. Speaker comes to the conclusion according to the number oast for or against-


Wilfrid Laurier: The Speaker calls for an expression of opinion, and on the basis of that expression he says " I think the yeas have it; I think the nays have it." That is .a vote, but it is not a recorded vote.


Arthur Meighen: As I understand it, that is not a vote. It is a motion decided on division, but it cannot be argued that a number voted " yea " and a number voted " nay." That is the difference between a vote and an unrecorded division. The point is important, because, if it were decided by a vote, then the party division would be there which the hon. gentleman sought to establish, but there is no such record. It seemed to be the consensus of opinion of the House at the time that this was the course to pursue, and that is all about it.
With Tegard to the general scope of the legislation, it was deemed that, inasmuch as there would be a very great delay and very much to be done in order to take a vote of those who would be overseas, legislation should be provided in .advance to take care of these contingencies. The legislation provided that the franchise should be given to those soldiers overseas, who, but for the fact that they were soldiers, would not be entitled to vote at all. It abolished in large degree the residential qualifications. It assumed that because a man was a British subject and fighting for his country, he had that permanent stake in the country which otherwise residential qualification was necessary to prove. And i't went further in one respect than even this resolution. This resolution states that in order to qualify for-


Mr. ROSS:: Will the hon. gentleman, before he goes further with his explanation, please state whether in his opinion an en-

listed Indian twenty-one years old has a vote under the present law?


George Perry Graham: If he is twenty-one years of age.


Arthur Meighen: Yes. But in one respect the legislation went further than does the resolution of the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele). The resolution calls upon us to give the franchise to soldiers of the overseas forces who are below the age of twenty-one, provided they are British subjects, and were at the time of their enlistment resident in Canada. Under the law as it stands now a man in the overseas service has the right to vote even though, at the time of his enlistment, he was not a resident of Canada, provided that, six months prior to his enlistment, he had, during any thirty days, resided in any electoral division in Canada. He might have been a resident for thirty days six months before, and ceased to be a resident, but he would nevertheless be entitled to the franchise by virtue of his being an overseas soldier of the country. We did not, however, go to the extent of admitting to the franchise those below the age of twenty-one. Under the clause of the Act, once a man becomes an overseas soldier he is released from the limitations imposed upon the civilian and is entitled to vote, be he Indian or be of any other origin, so long as he is a British subject.
Mr. FISHER [DOT] With regard to the Indian vote. A moment ago it was stated in answer to the hon. member fox West Middlesex (Mr. Ross) that the Indian soldier had a vote. That would only apply, as I understand it, in case an election should take place during the war. But if the soldier returns to this country he would not have a vote, would he?


Arthur Meighen: I think that can be
answered directly: No. But, it can be more usefully answered in the following way: The Soldiers' Voting Act as it is imprinted on my mind contemplated only the enfranchisement of soldiers while soldiers, and made no provision for their having the vote on their return to Canada. I recall that at the time that matter was brought to the attention of the House by the hon. member for .North Bruce (Mr. Hugh Clark1 and it was explained then that all that the Bill contemplated, doing was to extend this franchise, in the manner provided, to the soldiers enlisted for overseas service, and that it did not go on to make

any special provision for soldiers after they returned. Consequently, speaking without the careful preparation on the subject that I should like to have made, I think the effect is this-that the benefits accruing under the Act terminate just as soon as a man ceases to be a soldier in the overseas service. Then he rests for his right to the franchise, as to everything else, upon the ordinary law. Consequently, the Indian, not entitled to vote under the Dominion Elections Act as soon as he ceases to be a soldier overseas would cease to exercise the franchise. It may foe a question whether we should or should not legislate, at the proper time, with regard not only to the right of the Indian, and perhaps to others who are ordinarily excepted, and who have ceased to be overseas soldiers, but also with regard to the overseas returned soldiers generally. For it would be just conceivable that under the law as it stands now the returned soldier, having, by the fact of his discharge, lost his special rights under the Soldiers' Voting Act, and perhaps not having had time to qualify under the Dominion Elections Act, might find himself debarred from exercising the franchise. That is a subject, however, not covered by the motion of the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele), and so I will not deal with it further at this time.
Now, as to the questions specifically covered by the resolution. It is argued by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Michael Clark) that manhood is the basis of the franchise after all, and that it is to be presumed that manhood is fully reached when enrolment to fight in this great war has taken place.
That argument must have its appeal. It may indeed be a better statement of the case to say that mental maturity is the qualification for the franchise. It is only natural, as this war progresses and as its horrors multiply and its perils increase, that hon. members of this House, as indeed citizens of this country generally, should feel more and more inclined to overcome all restraints, to throw aside all traditions and to do more and more for the soldiers. That is natural. At the same time we must be careful that we do not go too far. This resolution as it stands, for example, does not place the restriction that was in the mind of the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) when he moved his amendment two years ago. The resolution would affect even those under 18 years of age serving perhaps as buglers and trumpeters. We might go to the extent of admitting
those between 18 and 21 years. This subject is worthy of consideration and in view especially of the opinions expressed in this debate it will receive the consideration of the Government.


Mr. E. M. MACDONALD:: I understood
the Solicitor General to say that he thought that Indians who were wards of the Government and were not citizens of this country but who were overseas would have the right to vote because they might foe said to come within the definition of British subjects 21 years of age. But does my hon. friend think when he uses that language that he will be able to reconstruct his ward and make of him a citizen, a subject or a legal person, in the sense in which the word as used in the statute, which would give him the status of a person having the right to vote?


Arthur Meighen: 
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: He is not a
person in the legal sense.


Arthur Meighen: I know in the courts
of England, in their construction of franchise' legislation have, in one case, at all events, found that a woman was not, in the sense of the franchise act in force at that time, a person. I do not know of any finding to the effect that a ward of the Government, such as a Canadian Indian, is not a person or i3 not in a position to be known as a subject of Great Britain. I have always understood that an Indian is a subject of the British Empire, that he is a British subject and my opinion, whatever it may be worth, is that under the Act as it stands defining a person entitled to the franchise as a British subject of the age of 21 years, all British "subjects, including Indians, while they are enlisted for overseas service, are entitled as such to the franchise.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I would not personally be desirous of being understood as being absolute on that point. I think a ward of the State is a person or subject within the meaning of this law and I do not think it was ever intended that he should have a vote at the time the matter was discussed.
Mr. DUNCAN C. ROSS (West Middlesex) :	It is a customary thing in this
House now-a-days to hear the Solicitor General (Mr. Meighen) advancing views, as he has done this afternoon, which are

a refutation of opinions which he has put forward during the last four or five years. It is also an ordinary occurrence to see him struggling to make a defence, but I do not think I ever saw' him struggle so vigorously as this afternoon. Some one has stated that consistency is a virtue. I would not like to say that inconsistency is a vice, Mr. Speaker, but with our friends on the opposite side of the House, in recent times, it has certainly become a habit. Their inconsistency in regard to the Canadian navy is well remembered-I do not want to make party capital out of that-their inconsistency in regard to free wheat is fresh in the memory of the House; their inconsistency in regard to the soldiers' votes is so fresh that it cannot be forgotten, and now we have this new inconsistency of the Solicitor General in regard to this question. I cannot quarrel with the resolution. If a man is courageous enough; if he is patriotic enough; if he is man enough to offer to fight in freedom's cause; if he is strong enough to fight his country's battles, he should have the right to say how the coun-. try shall be governed. I for one shall be only too glad to have the verdict of the soldiers who are fighting our battles at the front in regard to how this Government is administering the affairs of Canada. I believe that when the result is known the Government will not be very glad, if I can judge from the letters I have received from the. front, and from what I have been told by returned soldiers..	.
However, that is in passing. There is one feature of the resolution which is not made clear, nor do I know if the mover made it clear in his speech. I would ask the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele) if he intended to include women nurses in his resolution because it does not say "male" subjects of the British Empire.


Michael Steele: No, I did not intend to include them in the resolution, but I will be prepared to support a proposal that nurses should get the franchise, when the question comes up for discussion.


Duncan Campbell Ross: I think it is only just that if British soldiers are going to be given votes because they are British soldiers, British nurses should also be given votes. However, there was a point made by the hon. member for South Perth that I desire to refer to, and that is in regard to the right of the enlisted Indian to vote. There should be no exception made of the enlisted Indian in such a matter. No distinction is made between the Indian and any other

man with regard to the terms of enlistment. It may be true that (the Indian is a ward of the state, but my contention is that when a ward of the state becomes the valiant guardian of the state, as many of the Indians in my own riding have, he is entitled to the vote at an election for members of this House. The Indians in the southern part of West Middlesex have enlisted in large numbers. Before the war they were a very important part of the 26th Battalion Middlesex Light Infantry and one of the best companies in that battalion was comprised of Indians. They were amongst the best drilled and best officered of the Canadian militia, and they conducted themselves as Canadian soldiers should. They have gone to the front, they have covered themselves with honour in more than one fight, and some of them have given their lives for their country. My contention is that if you are going to give enlisted soldiers the franchise you have no right to make an exception of the Indian. I would point out to the Government that two years ago I asked whether the Indian soldier would toe given a vote in case he enlisted, and the Government gave me a very evasive answer. It is the duty of the Government, if they desire to be sincere in this matter, to amend the Soldiers' Franchise Aot, if necessary to make it absolutely clear that enlisted Indians are entitled to the vote. It may seem clear that they have a vote, but when I read the Soldiers' Voting Act there is a grave doubt in my mind. The body of this Act leads you to believe enlisted Indians have a right to vote, but the oath in the schedule of the same leaves the matter in doubt. I would suggest, therefore, to the Government that this point be cleared up. For my own part, I cannot see why any person can take any very strong exception to the resolution of the hon. member from South Perth (Mr. Steele), and I am prepared to support it.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. ONESIPHORE TURGEON (Gloucester) :: Mr. Speaker, I merely wish to put
myself on record as supporting the resolution now before the House and to state the chief motive which actuates me in supporting it, as well as that which caused me to support a somewhat similar resolution brought before the House two years ago by the hon. member for Bonaventure (Hon. Charles Marcil.)

I shall not enter into an argument as to differentiations relating to a division or a vote. When I rise in this House and answer the Speaker "yea" or "nay," I rise with the determination of giving my vote publicly and having it on record. When this matter was before the House two years ago I, for one, advised the Minister of Justice to delay his Bill until the next session. There was no occasion for hurrying at the time; there were two long years within which to frame a Bill which would be more perfect than the one presented by the minister at that time. Had this advice been accepted, the provision which we are now urging, as well as others advantageous tc the soldier, might have been inserted in the Bill.
The chief reason why I support this resolution is that our enlistment has been carried on not by conscription, but by voluntary enlistment. The soldier 18 or 19 yeans of age who is in the trenches to-day went there voluntarily, thus giving indication of his intelligence and of his patriotism. The age of 21 has been recognized all over the world not only as that at which a man may commence to exercise his franchise, but, in every line of business, as the age at which the ordinary human being is capable of assuming the duties of citizenship. A young man has to wait until he is 21 years of age before he is able to administer an inheritance left to him by his father or left to the family of which he is the head. This does not mean that at the age of 18 or 19 a young man is not capable of assuming such duties. It means that Governments have in ordinary cases no evidence upon which they may make a distinction and extend these privileges to any one under the age of 21. But when a young man of 18 is impelled by a sense of duty to fight for his country, thus giving evidence of his intelligence and patriotism, the Government has direct evidence of his capacity to exercise the rights of citizenship as well as the duties pertaining to his family life. It is not only in the universities and colleges that we find young men who are gifted with that degree of intelligence and patriotism. In other walks of life we find them; among the workmen and in our industries, where they rise rapidly by the intelligence with which they have been gifted. Many young farmers at the age of 18 are able to assume the duties formerly carried on by their fathers, and to administer the business of
the farm with as much intelligence and success as if they were 21. The young man, therefore, who gives expression to his intelligence and to his willingness to make the supreme sacrifice for his country, furnishes a criterion upon which a Government may act. To grant these young men the privileges of the franchise would be a recognition of their spirit of sacrifice as well as an encouragement to those who have not yet gone. It is, therefore, with the view of expressing our gratitude to the young men who have gone, as well as to encourage those of 18 and 19 who have not. yet gone, that I ask the Government to forget the past and have a measure passed at once, based on this resolution, which will give the vote to every young man who has gone to fight or who is to go. This is one of the reasons why I support the resolution; concerning many others of less importance, I shall not now take up the time of the House.


Mr. DONALD SUTHERLAND (South Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, it is rather refreshing to hear the hon. gentleman who has just sat down (Mr. Turgeon) advise the House to forget the past and to deal with questions as they confront us to-day. I do not know that a more stinging rebake was ever addressed to members on his side of the House than that which has been administered by the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat. In reading the resolution I thought it was one that would appeal to every hon. member of this House.
I think it is advisable that I should read it again, in view of some of the remarks that have fallen from the lips of hon. gentlemen who have already spoken. It is as follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, the Government should introduce legislation at this session which will extend the franchise to every British citizen who enlisted with the Canadian forces for overseas service, and who was a resident of Canada at the time of enlistment.
This is the question before the House, as introduced by the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele), a man who has the reputation of being very fair and very moderate in his views and who does not speak, in the House unless it is on a question that he feels is of vital interest to the country. I believe that his realization of its importance is what caused him to introduce this resolution.
Several other members of the House spoke along similar lines to those followed by the mover of the resolution, but, much to my-

surprise, one of the oldest and most experienced parliamentarians in this House, the hon. member for St. John, had his desk piled up with authorities in an endeavour to fasten something of a recriminatory and political nature that happened two years ago upon hon. gentlemen on this side of the House. When we assembled here on Saturday last and listened with breathless attention to the words of liquid fire that were uttered by the eloquent French statesman who was with us on that occasion, I could not help feeling that during the remainder of thie session there would be less party recrimination, less waste of time, a greater consciousness of the stern duty with which we are confronted, a desire to deal with matters in a fairer manner than we have done in the past. I do not like to recall these things, but just before the House rose at six o'clock, the hon. member for West Middlesex (Mr. Ross) indulged in remarks that were quite uncalled for. He endeavoured to make it appear that we on this side of the House were inconsistent in supporting a resolution of thie kind. I wish to say on my own behalf that when thie question was up on a previous occasion I supported it as strongly as possible. I urged on the Government the advisability of extending the franchise to the men who had been more fully seized of their duty to the State than those who remained at home. There are in the ranks of the Canadian forces to-day grim, silent, battle-scarred veterans of this war who went over with the first contingent and who are not yet 21 years of age. That is something that we did not have two years ago when the matter was before the House; that is something that is well known to every hon. member, and it is a reason why we should carefully consider this resolution which has been introduced by the hon. member for South Perth. Is it right or fair that should an election occur in this country, those men, after two years of hard fighting and undergoing terrible hardships, should be deprived of their right to vote? I am more fully seized of the necessity for a Dominion Franchise Act, universally applicable and uniform throughout the Dominion of Canada, than I have ever been before. If my memory serves me aright, as I have not gone through the records as the hon. member for St. John has done, with a view to finding out certain things that appeal to him, one of the reasons why the' age was fixed at 21 years, was that the age of 21 was fixed in the provin-
cial lisits, which are used in Dominion elections.
There are other matters to be considered in a Franchise Act than merely extending it to our soldiers at the front. We must also put in that Act safeguards that will not render futile the desires and wishes of those men who are fighting on our behalf. Owing to the cosmopolitan character of the population of this country, there are many men in Canada who have not yet become thoroughly Canadianized, men who cherish yet in their breasts a strong sympathy for the countries from which they came, and at the present time we and the Allies are gripped in a death struggle with the countries from' which these men have come. There is this question to be considered in connection with the resolution. Other resolutions affecting the franchise will come up in the course of this session and these matters ought to be taken into consideration together and, as I have stated before, a uniform Act enacted which will meet the requirements of the country. A gradual evolution has been taking place in this country during the past few years. During the last two years we have been confronted with conditions such as have never before been experienced. The wide disparity that exists today in the franchise between the different provinces must be removed in Federal elections ; we must see that safeguards are enacted that will prevent an injustice being done to ourselves, t,o our country, and to the cause for which we are fighting. This resolution is so reasonable and fair that I regret very much that it has not appealed to every hon. member, and that some have, -instead of expressing themselves in favour of it, rather left the impression that they are in favour of it but have stated that somebody on this side of the House or somebody somewhere else had opposed something of a similar nature on a previous occasion. This measure has never been before the H.ouse before, and we are in a better position to-day to realize what is right and fair by those men who are waging this battle on our behalf than we were at any time in the past. I am heartily in favour of the resolution and I believe this resolution and other motions of a similar nature affecting the franchise should be considered and an Act enacted, which will do justice to the occasion and provide safeguards for the interest of our country against the enemy who may be within our gates.


Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (North Cape Breton):: Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend (Mr. Sutherland) seems to take pleasure in supposing that he has not been speaking in a partisan manner. If I understand partisan talk, the keenest and most vivid lightning partisan talk that has been given in this House this afternoon has been given to us now. There is no reason why this question should be discussed from a partisan standpoint; it should be discussed in a cool, calm, deliberate fashion. I venture to suggest quietly, from the attitude of the group of gentlemen on the other side of the House who spoke about the enfranchisement of Indians and others, that it is just a little play as to who will get the good feelings and good intentions and good will of the Indians in this country. That is about the full force and effect of this resolution so far as I understand it.


Donald Sutherland: Does the hon. gentleman imply that most of the men who have gone from Canada are Indians?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: They are not all gone yet anyway. I am sorry that I should be interrupted in this way. In considering questions of this kind, most of us think we ought to pay some attention to what the law of the country is to-day. It is easy enough to introduce resolutions, and I have no doubt in the world that the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele) who introduced this resolution this afternoon, did so in good spirit and with a view to conferring the franchise upon the soldiers; but my hon. friend and other hon. members must understand that for the last 20 years or more this House and the Senate of Canada have dealt with this question of the franchise and have practically placed the whole question in the hands of the provinces and have denuded themselves of any power in connection with it. That question has stood the battle and the breeze for over 20 years, and it is not a light matter to come now as we are doing to disturb the whole machinery of government in connection with this matter. Section 10 of chapter 6 of the Revised Statutes of Canada 1906, says:
The qualifications necessary to entitle any person to vote at a Dominion election in any province shall, except as herein otherwise provided, be tho3e established by the laws of that province as necessary to entitle such person to vote in the same part of the province at provincial election.
That is the law of Canada to-day. Each province has the right to say what the franchise shall be, and once that franchise is established by that province it becomes the franchise of the Dominion. I take it that 'the representatives of the different provinces of Canada in the different legislatures are just as loyal as we are and just as appreciative of what belongs of right to the soldiers at the front as we are, and the power is theirs to extend that franchise to the soldiers if they so desire. They have the machinery for the preparation of the lists; there will be no disturbance of the present conditions in any province of Canada if the provincial legislatures so desire to extend the franchise, and I think we should be content with passing resolutions in this House recommending that the different Parliaments in the nine provinces of Canada should do so. If we pass this resolution to-day how are we going to deal with the lists? We have no m-achinery belonging to us in any province in Canada to deal with the lists. For some years we had in this country a Dominion Franchise Act, and I think both Liberals and Conservatives got tired of it. It was repealed by the late Government and a new condition of things brought into play. I was not in Parliament at the time that the Dominion Franchise Act, or the Revising Barristers' Act, as it might be called, was repealed, but I do not think there was any strenuous opposition to its repeal. I have been here for a good many years and I have never heard any Conservative, either a member of Government or a supporter of Government, saying that the old Dominion Franchise Act should come into force; everyone seems to be perfectly content witli the present condition of things. Some of the provincial Governments may be Conservative and others Liberal in their politics, but everyone seems to be content that the preparation of the lists and the conduct of the franchise are carried on fairly and honestly in this country. If the resolution of my hon. friend consisted in a recommendation to the provinces for .an extension of the franchise m any way that would commend itself to my mind I would be more in favour of it, but we aTe taxing ourselves with a great deal of responsibility if we are going to pass a Franchise Act for the soldiers and furnish all the machinery necessary for that purpose. It is not the intention that the votes of soldiers shall be taken at the front, and, therefore, the resolution of my hon. friend is not so important as it appears to be on the surface, because the intention of



the Prime Minister is evidently that the soldiers shall come home before anything is done, and after they return they will be subject to the conditions of the provinces in which Ithey live and the provincial authorities will deal with the subject. At page 41 of Hansard of this year the Prime Minister is reported as having said:-
I know something of the conditions at the front, and I venture to put this thought before the House and the country; the men at the front will be not only practically, but actually, disfranchised if an election does take place in this country while they are in the trenches. That is my conviction. I say they would be actually disfranchised because, although I render every tribute to my hon. friend the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) and the committee which had in hand the preparation of the Soldiers Voting Act of 1915, I am not disposed to think that the arrangements made in that Act or in any other act that could be devised are such as to enable those men to vote, or at least any considerable number of them. You cannot predict what conditions may exist. Supposing an election came on in this country when the fiercest drive of the war was taking place. Do you imagine that the paymasters of those regiments and their commanding officers could busy themselves with handing out ballots to men whose souls were engrossed and whose lives were at stake in the enterprise in which they were engaged? There is something more than that. I say that those men at the front have not it in their heart or their soul to consider matters of party controversy under the conditions with which they are there confronted. I believe those men would want to put aside any one who came to talk to them about political issues or partisan controversy, under conditions of life or of death, of victory or of defeat such as confront them in the trenches or while making a drive to bring this war to an end. Further than that, there may be perhaps a hundred thousand men not in France. You might be able to have some of those men to vote for' Government qr for Opposition, not for a candidate, as provided in the fact alluded to; but do you imagine that those men who are putting their lives to the supreme test in going overseas to fight for their country, will be greatly interested in political issues, or that they will desire to hear political speeches, or that they will welcome the distribution of partisan literature?
This was the Prime Minister's idea of this thing. He thought the men should not be bothered with political matters at all, that they would not stand for speeches or political literature of any kind being distributed among them; they should be left to discharge their duties which they were so worthily discharging. When our soldiers come back from the war, I am sure they will submit themselves to the laws of the different provinces to which they belong, and if this resolution was confined to a recommendation by this House to the different provincial govern-

ments to make what changes in the franchise they deemed advisable on behalf of the soldiers, leaving it to them to decide upon the qualifications as to age and so forth, I would have nothing but commendation for it. But I do not think it is necessary to ask this Parliament to start the huge machinery that would he necessary in order to do something which in the end would amount to nothing, because it is not the intention to take the votes of soldiers while they are away; and when they come back they will of course be satisfied to accept the law as it stansds on the statute -book of the different provinces.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Mr. Speaker, when I hear so much being said and suggested on the other side of the House as to amendments to the. franchise Acts, I fear there is in contemplation some very substantial and radical proposals in respect to the franchise law of the Dominion. As the hon. member for Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) has pointed out, as matters now stand, the creation of a federal franchise is entirely governed by provincial statute, and so long as that is the case it seems to me a resolution such as is here proposed is hardly a practical one. However, I did not rise particularly to say that. I yield to no one in my admiration of the gallantry and heroism of thet Canadian soldier. I hope when he returns to Canada there will be a warm spot in every heart and a place at every fireside for him. But I do not see any necessity at this moment for considering seriously the proposal of the hon. member for Perth (Mr. Steele). I think the soldier is more concerned about other matters at the present moment than whether or not a soldier under 21 shall be entitled to vote in the event of a war-time election. The soldier, even though -he be not 21, is a manly man, and I do not think he expects us to reconstruct the established laws of this country to meet his particular case. So far as I know there is no demand from the soldiers concerned for such a change in our law as is proposed in this resolution. After the legislation of 1915 was enacted, I came in contact with a great many soldiers in the city in which I reside, and availed myself of the opportunity to ascertain their opinions on the practicability and advisability of that legislation. I found, of course, differences of opinion, but a great number of them were entirely opposed to the legislation.
I think a more practical question and one far more likely to engage the sympathy

and intelligent consideration of the young soldier at the' front would be, how are we going to provide men in this country to take the place of those who have fallen? Or, what are we going to do to provide for our soldiers who will return to Canada after the cessation of the war? I do not think there is any demand for such legislation as this resolution seeks. I think it would accomplish little good. I have listened very carefully and attentively to the remarks made by hon. gentlemen who have spoken to this resolution, but I have heard nothing which would justify me in expressing my adherence to the principle of the resolution.


Mr. J. G. TURRIFF (Assiniboia):: Mr-
Speaker, as the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat has said, it would seem from the remarks of hon. gentlemen opposite that some change in the franchise Act is in contemplation by the Government. If there is not going to be any change this session or before the next election, what is the object of our passing- this resolution? If there is going to be a change we ought to know it now; we cannot deal intelligently with this question until we know whether or not there is going to be a change. I did not get up for the purpose of continuing this debate, hut rather to ask the Government if it is their intention, as has been suggested by hon. gentlemen opposite, to make a new election law for the Dominion with a uniform franchise for the whole country, instead of continuing to use the provincial system which has worked so well for a great number of years.


Arthur Meighen: 1 can answer the hon. gentleman at once. There is no change in the Franchise Act in contemplation at all. This resolution merely affects the Soldiers Votes Bill, and consideration has been promised in the usual way.


John Gillanders Turriff: It will affect more than that if this Government are going t-o make a voters' list for the whole Dominion as has been suggested by hon. gentlemen opposite. I repeat that we should know whether there is going to be a change or not before we can discuss this resolution intelligently.


Arthur Meighen: I have given the answer. "
Mr. E M. MACDONALD (Pictou):	I
would ask the mover of the resolution if his intention is to ask the Government to introduce an amendment to the Soldiers
89 i
Votes Bill of 1915, so as to include those in the overseas forces who are under 21.


Michael Steele: Not being a lawyer I
would not like to detail the method which should be followed in order to give every soldier who has enlisted for overseas service the right to vote. The thought that impelled me to introduce this resolution was that if a general election takes place either during the war or within a couple of years afterwards many of the men who are fighting our battles in France to-day so ably and so gallantly will be unable to cast a ballot to say how the affairs of Canada shall be run.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I intend to'
say a word or two before my hon. friend closes the debate, and I merely wished to ascertain before speaking how he expected the resolution to be put into effect. I would like to direct my hon. friend's attention to the wording of it:
That, in the opinion of this House, the Government should introduce legislation at this session which will extend the franchise to every British citizen who enlisted with the Canadian Forces for Overseas Service, and who was a resident of Canada at the time of enlistment.
Is this resolution intended to embody a request to the Government to amend the Act of 1915 so as to put this provision into effect?	.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. Do I understand that the mover of the resolution was proceeding with bis reply?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: No. He was merely answering a question of mine.


Michael Steele: In answer to my hon.
friend, I am merely asking the House to enunciate a principle, and am leaving it entirely to the Government to decide how that principle shall be put into legislation.
I am not a lawyer, but I imagine that an amendment to the Soldiers' Votes Bill of 1915 would not be sufficient to carry out the intention of this resolution.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Unfortunately, my hon. friend really does not know what he wants, judging from the answer which he was good enough to vouchsafe to my question. The attitude which hon. gentlemen would take towards this resolution would naturally depend somewhat upon what my hon. friend really has in mind. The Solicitor General told us a few moments ago that it was not the intention of the Government to introduce any legislation of ageneral character dealing with the franchise.

My hon. friend proposed the resolution which I read a few moments ago. This resolution purports to ask the Government to introduce legislation this session to extend the franchise to members of the overseas forces under twenty-one years of age. If he wished to effectuate the desire he has expressed in moving this resolution, there is no reason why he should not have introduced a Bill to amend Chapter 11 of the Statutes of 1915 by simply striking out the words "of twenty-one years of age or upwards." He has gone a very long way to work if he really wishes to attain results. Though not a lawyer, he is a professional man and is Chairman of one of the Committees of this House; and I am afraid he is altogether too modest when he puts forward his .supposed lack of legal knowledge as a reason why he did not take the direct course to the object he has in view. His speech to-day showed that he has read the statute. He is aware that it was passed by this House at the instance of the Minister of Justice, and that its introduction was the result not of a mere whim but of a well-considered policy, and that it was fully discussed in the House before its enactment into law. By the method I have suggested he could have proposed the amendment of this statute, and, had he done so, it is probable that by this time his Bill would be before us for second reading and could be crystallized into legislation at once. So I am at a loss to understand what he means by the circuitous method in which he has submitted this matter to the House. If it had been presented in. concrete form as an amendment to the Statute of 1915, so far as I am concerned, the proposition would have bad my zealous and hearty support. There could be no question of it passing, for it was made perfectly clear by my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) this afternoon, that my desk-mate, the hon. member for Bonaven-ture (Mr. Marcil) in 1915 moved an amend-mend providing that every one over eighteen years of age should be entitled to a vote if he had enlisted for overseas service. So, had the hon. member for South Perth followed the course that I have suggested hon. gentlemen on this side who voted in 1915 in favour of the resolution of the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) would have supported him. Notwithstanding the characteristic argument of the Solicitor General (Mr. Meighen) it was hon. gentlemen opposite who voted in 1915 that the hon. member for Bonaventure was 
wrong when he proposed to give the franchise to members of the overseas service under twenty-one years of age. No doubt the hon. gentleman (Mr. Steele) forgot that the issue had been raised. Of course, the Solicitor General must needs attempt to show that my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley), in calling attention to the fact that my desk-mate had proposed this change two years ago, was playing politics. Of course he does not mean these little pleasantries-


Arthur Meighen: I did not say that.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Then, perhaps the hon. gentleman will tell Ui what he did say?


Arthur Meighen: I said that this was not a matter of politics now and had not been two years ago; that each side was divided, their members taking contrary views.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: And what did the hon. gentleman say about my hon. friend from St. John?


Arthur Meighen: That to-day he was endeavouring to make it so.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: That is, that the hon. member tor St. John was endeavouring to make this a political question, because he called the attention of the House to the fact that two years ago hon. gentlemen on this side had proposed this very thing-


Arthur Meighen: Some of them.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: -which hon. members on the other side have now discovered, apparently for the first time, ought to be done. At that time they did not want it done. Let me remind the Solicitor General, with regard to the homilies he is fond of delivering concerning hon. members on this side, of the old proverb, evil is to him who evil thinks. He must not believe that because he happens to sit on the treasury benches that he alone is the embodiment of statesmanship, and that he could not possibly descend from his high pedestal and himself engage in talking politics. He knows that he makes that descent often; that he has to; that when hon. gentlemen opposite get into trouble he is the Moses who is called upon to lead them out of that trouble. Of course, he thoroughly believes that on such occasions he is not playing politics, but is performing a high and patriotic duty. And equally, of course,

when my hon. friend from St. John, in that kindly manner of his, suggests in all candor that we on this side were prepared to put this amendment on the statute books which the hon. member for South Perth (Mr. Steele) wants us to support to-day, the Solicitor General deems it his patriotic duty to rise in his might and denounce my mild and kindly friend on the ground that he is endeavouring to introduce politics. I think the Solicitor General had better refrain from these homilies, for wisdom will not die with hon. gentlemen opposite, nor *patriotism either.
I regret that this proposal has not been brought before the House in the form of an amendment to this Act. Let me point out that my hon. friend from Cape Breton North (Mr. McKenzie) is right in his criticism. The unquestioned policy of this country for many years has been to accept the franchise as laid down by the provincial legislatures, having in view the fact that they are in touch with local conditions and have control in matters of municipal organization. Many years ago there was a question between the parties as to a federal franchise, but that has long since disappeared. We now follow the system which obtains in every great federation of states, the franchise of the several states being accepted. As has been suggested, that is our position with regard to woman suffrage. Certain provinces have decided that their women shall have the right to vote, while certain other provinces have not so far accepted the principle of women suffrage. The right to vote given to females in certain provinces is recognized under our statute so far as those provinces are concerned. The only exception to our legislation upon that subject was made in the Bill introduced by the Minister of Justice in 1915, and now appearing in our statute book as chapter 11 of the statutes of that year. We were then creating machinery under which the votes of the men who were overseas, or congregated in camps in Canada, Bermuda or elsewhere, might be recorded. We were not so much making a new franchise law but rather a new electoral law. But incidentally to the providing of machinery for the taking of this vote, there was introduced a clause to give the franchise to every man pf the overseas forces, twenty-one years or over, who was a British subject, no matter what his residence or his property qualification. This, I say, is the only exception that has been recognized in this Parliament for a long time to the principle that the provinces
shall fix the franchise. I am glad to know from the Solicitor General that it is not the desire to depart from this accepted principle.
I am inclined to support the resolution of my hon. friend (Mr. Steele) on the assumption that it is his desire to ask the Government to introduce an amendment to the Act of 1915, so as to provide that every member of the overseas forces who is a British subject shall be entitled to vote. It seems to me this is a proposition concerning which there cannot be much question. As to the position, in this relation, of the Indians, that is a very large question, and one involving grave considerations. There may be provinces in which, though the Indians are wards of the Government and dependent upon the bounty of the citizens of Canada for their support, the argument might be in favour of extending to them the right to vote. But in other provinces there are conditions which make it impossible to give to these people, who are the children of the state, the right to exercise the franchise jointly with the citizens. I do not wish, therefore, to be understood as acceding to the proposition that this amendment, providing that those who are under 21 years of age shall have the right to vote, can be made so general as to give recognition to the proposition that Indians shall be given the Tight to vote. The conditions are entirely different. It is questionable whether there is any necessity for this legislation at all. In some of the provinces-I know of two already-legislation has been passed which provides that every person who has gone overseas shall have the right to vote. Two of the western provinces have, by amendment to their Franchise Acts, provided that that shall be done, and in at least one of the Maritime Provinces a similar provision has been made.


Duncan Campbell Ross: So has Ontario.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Therefore, the proposition narrows itself down to a very fine point, indeed, and it is questionable whether the House is called upon to interfere at all except in so far as it may be that the Government would Tecede from the position which they, through the Minister of Justice, took two years ago and amend the Act of 1915 so as to strike out the words " of twenty-one years of age."


Arthur Bliss Copp: Mr. Speaker, I desire to draw the attention of the House for a moment to the question that arises in the minds of several hon.

gentlemen as to whether it is the intention of my toon, friend from South Perth (Mr. Steele) merely to amend the Act to give votes to soldiers while reducing the age at which they are entitled to exercise the franchise from 21 to 18 years, or whether it is the intention to change the electoral machinery entirely and take the privilege of providing the voters' lists away from the different provinces. In several of the provinces they have already taken action with regard to the exercise of the franchise .by soldiers. Last year the legislature of New Brunswick made .an amendment to the Elections Act providing that all soldiers, whether overseas or at home, and whether their names were enrolled on the voters' lists or not, should be entitled to vote at elections. The section reads as follows:-
Who at any election held during the present war, or within the calender year next succeeding the declaration of peace, if he shall have served in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, or in the British Army or on Home Service in the present war, was at the time of his enlistment a feona fide resident of, and domiciled in the province of New Brunswick, and is at the time of tendering his vote a bona fide resident of, or domiciled in the district in which such vote is tendered; provided that no person discharged from service because of misconduct shall be qualified to vote under this sub-section.
So, the province of New Brunswick provided that all soldiers should be entitled to vote whether they had served overseas or in home defence? During the election held in New Brunswick in February a number of soldiers came to the polls and cast their ballots. Their names were not on the lists but they came there according to this Act and exercised their franchise. There was some question whether, under the Act, a .soldier under the age of 21 years could vote, but both parties, anxious that the soldiers should exercise the franchise, offered no objection and any soldier who appeared at the poll was allowed to cast Ms ballot. I understand from my hon. friend from West Middlesex (Mr. Boss) that they have made provision for the soldiers' votes in Ontario-, they have done so in the western provinces, I do not know about Nova Scotia, hut I have no doubt that the different provinces will enact legislation with regard to the soldiers' vote. It seems to me it is interfering with provincial rights when we attempt to legislate with regard to the franchise and that the question had better be left to the respective provinces. In. so far as I have been able to learn, the experiment is. my own province has worked out most satisfactorily.


Mr. R. B. BENNETT (Calgary):: Mr. Speaker, I do not purpose making .any extended observations on this resolution, but I desire to say that I shall support it. There i.s -a certain amount of principle involved in the resolution and I think we should steadily keep in mind the principles that should govern with respect to the granting of the franchise either for federal and national purposes or provincial and local purposes. If history has taught us anything it has taught us at least 'that the exercise of the franchise is a matter of very serious import to the life of the state. It has taught us that we have men within the state who have now the right -to exercise the franchise who, at least, are not the supporters of the state and its great enterprises to the extent to which they should be. Now, I lay down two- principles that must govern in -a matter of this kind. First, in respect to local and provincial matters, the provinces .should be the best and, in fact, the only, judges as to who should vote. Men and women can vote and vote freely upon local issues, on matters that are not beyond the competence of a provincial legislature but when it comes to matters affecting the national well-being, the life of the state, the very existence and destiny of this Dominion. I submit that only those persons who are nationals, using the word " nationals " in the sense in which it is used in the hooks, should be permitted to exercise the franchise. In matters of life .and death to the state, in matters of. the existence of our identity .as a nation, only tho.se persons who are nationals should be permitted to vote. Who are nationals? The first among all nationals .are those men who have offered their lives in defence, of our common country and our civilization. I do not care whether they are 21 years of age or not; they .have offered their lives upon the battlefields of Europe in defence of our civilization, of our institutions .and of our lives and surely they should not be denied the vote. On what principle should they be denied the vote? Could any man give any greater evidence of love of country or devotion to its. institutions than to offer his life as every man did who joined the expeditionary forces? I repudiate in toto the doctrine of the hon. member for Pic-tou (Mr. Macdonald) who said that an Indian shall not vote who- offers himself for service overseas. Whether it be right o.r wrong I state it .as my own personal view that any member of an aboriginal tribe who leaves Canada and offers his life in defence

of our liberty should not be denied the right to say -something as to what shall be the destiny and the future of this great Dominion. I merely s-ay that is my personal view as it strikes me at the present moment.
The first of those who must be acknowledged as Nationals are the men who offer' their lives, -by reason of having volunteered for overseas service; the second classification of those who are Nationals and entitled to vote on Federal or National affairs, are those who are British subjects; the third would be those who. are naturalized, plus probably something more, because the exercise of the Federal franchise, the exercise of the power to determine the national destiny of Canada, involves, as we have learned by studying the history of this country during the last three years and the history of our friends to the south and of our people overseas, something more than -mere naturalization-it involves some assimilation to the institutions of our country, some knowledge of the history of our traditions, some love and reverence for the great names that have given us our civilization, liberty and freedom-and that can come, I submit, only from something more than mere naturalization, something more than merely living three years in the state and swearing before a Justice of the Peace something which a man does not understand, and does not care whether he understands or not. We at least should learn something from this waT, and if we have learned anything I repeat, Sir, it must be that the life of the state can be entrusted only to those who are Nationals -in the sense in which that word is used. Therefore I classify them once more as (1^ those who have gone overseas, offered themselves for service overseas, offered their lives, if need be, in defence of the state; (2) those who are British subjects; (3) those who are naturalized within the state and have had a training that has enabled them to have assimilated something of our institutions and some love for our traditions and history.
And then a further question arises, whether or not you shall place a limitation upon thaf right; and it seems to me that no thoughtful man who has -read the history of this -country will fOT a single moment deny that you should refuse the Federal franchise to those who owe allegiance to a foreign state of a military character. In other words, the reservists of a foreign state should never be permitted to exercise the Federal or National franchise.


Rodolphe Lemieux: You include the Allies?


Richard Bedford Bennett: The Allies have
nothing to do with the principle, nothing at all. The men who are interested in the preservation of Britain are British subjects by birth or naturalization, and those who have given the further indications that I have mentioned. It well may be-I pray it may not be - that in this country we may again see, as I saw some years ago, men rush to the colours of a foreign country, not our ally. I saw men from Canada rush to the colours of Serbia 9 p.m. when she was not an ally o-f Great Britain. They had become naturalized in this country, but when the call came from overseas, they rushed to the defence of their civilization on the plains of Serbia and in the Balkans. That is unsound, so far as the exercise of a national franchise is coneerned. No man who owes allegiance to a foreign power of a military character, no man who can be- summoned at the call o-f a foreign power, whether allied to this country or not, should be permitted to exercise a voice in determining the national destiny of this Dominion.	.
I submit those principles as being principles that should govern with respect to the exercise of the franchise in this country, and if these be sound principles-and I submit that this is a sound statement df the case-then all men, whether they be eighteen or nineteen or twenty or twenty-one years of age, it matters not, who have fulfilled the first requisite of indicating -by their conduct and their action, 'by their splendid patriotism, and willingness if need be to sacrifice life itself in defence of the liberties of this country and of our -common civilization, should be granted the franchise.
I therefore do most heartily support this resolution, remembering further that -this matter engaged two years ago the attention of a parliamentary

committee of which. I happened to be a member. The consensus of opinion in this House then was that the limit should still Ibe maintained at twenty-one years of age. I was not one of those who then so thought; nor have I changed my opinion. I can only reiterate the statements I have made, that any man, whatever be his age, if he be physically fit and old enough to be accepted for service overseas, if he has shown that he has such a stake in our destiny, such an interest in our future, such a great and abiding faith in our civilization and

destiny, that, if need be, he is willing to offer life itself in defence of our liberties, should be granted the fullest rights of citizenship. If, while we gather in this Chamber and discuss paltry resolutions and display bitterness and strife, this man is willing to make the supreme sacrifice, are we to deny him the greatest of all privileges that a free man can exercise, that of expressing his will with respect to the destiny of the State?
There are other matters that might be discussed upon this resolution. I was not present this afternoon and do not know what has been said. I have heard only the observations of the hon. gentleman from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald), of the hon. gentleman from Westmorland (Mr. Copp), and a few words from my hon. friend from South Perth (Mr. iSteele); but I desire to place myself on record as being heartily in support of a resolution which will grant to my fellow Canadians overseas who have offered their lives in defence of the liberties we enjoy in this Chamber, the right, by their voice and vote, to determine what shall be the future of this great Dominion. We should be less than men if we should endeavour to deny that right to any man, black or white, red or yellow, who is a citizen of this country by birth or naturalization, who has shown his patriotism to be of such a type that he is willing to sacrifice his life for our country. That is the view I take of the principles that must guide us in deciding who should exercise the franchise within this country upon great national questions involving the life, the integrity, the destiny of Canada-and more, of that Empire of which Canada is to-day the most prominent dominion.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the hon. member for Calgary (Mr. R. B. Bennett) with a great deal of interest, as we always do. So far as the first proposition which he puts forward is concerned, I do not think there has been very much division among the members of this House who have spoken since the debate commenced this afternoon. Of course, there is always this question, whether a man under twenty-one years of age has given matters of state sufficient attention to be enabled to cast an intelligent vote. There is a great deal in what the hon. member for Calgary said, that a man who risks his life should have a right to say what the policy of this country shall be. I do not quarrel with my hon. friend in that, but, in my judgment, the

hon. member for Calgary has opened up another phase of discussion which I should like to see elucidated, to have a little more light thrown on it, because there is something behind his remarks that has hardly been made plain. He lays down the principle that a man who is a British subject -by birth or naturalization shall have the right to vote, but he seems to have an idea that there is some other class of men who are really British subjects who- should not have the right to vote. I should like to know to what class he refers. He has spoken of the Serbian reservist who is a British subject as one of this class. That is not the fault of the Serbian reservist, but of the naturalization law. This country has invited into it people from all parts of the earth, and we have had a law that a man who has resided in Canada for three years with the intention of settling in it and has complied with certain conditions, taken the oath of allegiance and fulfilled conditions of residence, is entitled to naturalization, and once he is so entitled, so long as he is in Canada he is entitled to all the rights of a British subject. How is my hon. friend going to take from that man his right to -the franchise?


Richard Bedford Bennett: The Privy Council so decided in the Japanese case. The Privy Council has decided that it was competent for the Legislature of British Columbia to say that a Japanese should not exercise the franchise, although he was a British subject.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I suppose that Parliament is all-powerful in anything over which it .has jurisdiction. Under the present law, the legislature of a province is all-powerful in the matter of who shall have the rights of the franchise. But take the case of a man who has complied with all requirements, has lived in Canada for three years, has taken the oath of allegiance and has become a naturalized British subject. It is monstrous that some person like the hon. member for Calgary should say: it is true that we invited you into this country under certain promises and conditions, but, for some reason, I do not want you to vote; therefore I am not going to give you the right to do so. I am glad that the hon. gentleman has made himself a little plainer.
I think I am in the judgment of the House when I say that he stands practically alone in the position which he takes; anyway, I hope that he does. If there is fault anywhere, it is in the naturalization law. The naturalization law was amended a couple

of years ago, making it a little harder for a man to be naturalized-and I would not mind if it went further still. But I do hope that my hon. friend is not forecasting a, change of policy on the part of this Government, this Parliament or this country.
I know of no greater misfortune that could happen to Canada than that she should violate pledges made to the people of Europe in by-gone years when she invited them here.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The Privy Council has said that there was no such promise and no such pledge. The franchise is neither a promise nor a pledge. It is a privilege which the legislature-


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Notwithstanding my hon. friend's learned remarks, I do not care a straw for what the Privy Council said. The people of Canada know the conditions under which these people have been invited here, and they will know if the rights which were promised to them are withheld. But, Sir, we are travelling far afield. I thought that it was not right to allow such a revolutionary statement to go by unchallenged, and I hope that if my hon. friend or his friends have any such ideas in their minds, they will state them openly and not in veiled manner, as did the hon. member for Calgary.
Subject to what has been said in this respect, I do not think that there is much difference of opinion as between the two sides of the House or among individual members as to the motion that is now under discussion. As has been pointed out, provision has been made in a number of the provinces by which soldiers may vote, regardless of their age. With that provision I have no objection. As was pointed out by the hon. member for Westmorland, it worked all right in the New Brunswick elections in February last, and I assume that it will work all right wherever it is tried. But, as was remarked by the member for Pictou, I do submit that if the House is going to take any action in the matter, it ought to be done simply by an amendment to the Act of 1915.
On the motion Of Mr. A. A. McLean (Queens, P.E.I.), the debate was adjourned.



THE SUPPLY OF FUEL.


Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG (East Lambton) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, it is of great importance that the increased and increasing demand for fuel for manufacturing and residential purposes be supplied in larger quantities and at cheaper rates than are now possible; that the deposits of bituminous and anthracite coal in Canada, located in the extreme eastern and western portions thereof, be more fully and thoroughly utilized for the benefit of the residents of the central provinces ; that the enormous peat and lignite deposits so widely distributed through all portions of the Dominion be also scientifically made use of for the same purpose and further that the Government of Canada make a special effort, through legislation and otherwise, to have these valuable deposits more fully and rapidly developed to the end that the people of Canada may be adequately supplied with these fuels.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the resolution which I present to the House is one which is worthy of the closest attention of every member. We have in Canada the most wonderful undeveloped mineral resources of any country in the world. We have connected with the Mines Department at Ottawa an excellent staff which is capable of undertaking any work that may be assigned to them, and, while I find that there is some overlapping in the work done, much good is accomplished. I am glad that the Minister of Mines has furnished rooms where the specimens of our mines, gathered over the last seventy years, can be exhibited. The samples of materials and of products from different parts of our country which are on exhibition deserve our attention. These specimens were, until a few weeks ago behind closed doors, locked in vaults, boarded up in cellars and in places where it was impossible to have them properly displayed-through no fault of the Minister of Mines.
It is my belief that, at the close of this war no branch of industry in Canada outside of agriculture will receive as great a stimulus as will the mining industry, and I respectfully urge upon the Government the need of devoting its best energies to render every assistance it can to the development of the industries which are connected with the Mines Department. Important matters of research and constructive work connected with the Mines Department must not be left in abeyance.
Since this war began, every nation has been compelled to re-examine and investigate her material resources. Canada possesses tremendous resources in forests, * fields, and mines. Let us commence at once to investigate and utilize them.
While investigating this subject, I have been greatly impressed by the number of products manufactured in the United States and England out of the raw material that has been taken from Canadian mines

Education, organization, and scientific research are needed in connection with this department, and a general speeding up pf the whole organization is desirable. When the war is over, we should have, and I believe will have, a properly co-ordinated mineral survey of the Empire, and Canada should lead the way. Canada should have some means of demonstrating just what Canadian mines can and dp produce. Research and constructive work must be carried on with greater energy tl^an ever before. Educational work regarding our mineral resources should not be confined to our high schopls and collegiate institutes, as it is to a large extent to-day, but public schools should make the subject attractive.
The chief statistician of the Department of Mines, Mr. John McLeish, reports that the value of the mineral output of Canada last year was $33,000,000 greater than in 1915. The advance was not mainly due tp the rise in prices, for the tonnage also increased remarkably. In 1886 the value was $10,221,255; in 1896 it was $22,474,256; in 1906, $79,286,697, and ten years later, $170,000,000.
At the present rate of development we may expect that during the year 1917 the output of the mines of Canada will exceed $200,000,000. The stimulus given to Canadian mineral development by the war is great and probably permanent. One of the problems which confront Canada to-day, is to devise the best means of rendering available the various supplies of low grade fuel.
Last winter every great city in Canada was within 48 hours of starvation owing tc lack of fuel. In recent years we have had two coal famines, first in 1901-2, the year of the coal miners' strike, and secondly, this year, when the severity of the weather and the extraordinary prosperity in the United States caused an unprecedented congestion of freight. A survey of conditions in the United States demonstrates that in the future there will be more coal famines than in the past, and that they will occur at shorter intervals. The current issue of Coal Age, in New York, says that the reserves of coal usually held over by the big companies are completely exhausted.
Dr. George Otis Smith, Director of the United States Geological survey, commenting upon the world's supply of coal, and with particular reference to the reserves in his own country, states:
This glance at the world's reserves of coal shows plainly not only that the United States leads all other countries in production, our 
annual output being nearly 40 per cent of the total, but also that it possesses the greatest reserves. Yet in respect to no mineral is there greater need to emphasize the folly of export-, ing the raw material. Let us keep our coal at home, and with it manufacture whatever the world needs.
The people of Canada just now are gaining an impression, at considerable inconvenience, of what it would mean were the United States for any reason to cut off Canada's coal supply. Presumably there are insufficient facilities and motive power for coal transport. Cities and towns in Canada are keeping fires alight with practically a day-to-day supply of coal, and the time may come when the United States may deem it expedient to reserve her supply of coal for her own use.
Many reasons are given for the making of the coal congestion, namely, zero weather, heavy snow falls, difficulty of obtaining men on the railroads and in the shops, shortage of motor cars and enlistment of men. Railroad officials appear to be doing their best to meet the difficulties. The industries of Toronto, Hamilton, and western Ontario, seem to be the greatest sufferers and universities and schools have closed owing to the shortage of coal. The situation is most serious and an adequate remedy must be found.
I have taken a number of clippings from newspapers which have appeared within the last few weeks, and the headings on some of these articles are:
Coal famine may tie up industry.
Investigate coal shortage in States.
Coal embargos to be modified.
What wage Increase to miners means to consumers.
New York, April 26.-Coal men estimate. that the wage increase granted to 175,000 miners in the anthracite fields will raise the retail price of hard coal an average of sixty cents a ton. The agreement signed last night by representatives of the operators and the United Mine Workers of America adds approximately $3 0,000,000 a year to the miner's wages and is the largest increase awarded in the history of anthracite industry.
Coal fails; schools close.
Canadian roads hard hit by the price of coal; The coal bill of the Canadian Railways will show an increase of more than $8,000,000 this year.
United States petroleum resources are becoming exhausted. A thirty-six per cent falling off in the production.
Lay in your supply of coal is the advice: L. E. Tillson says it may go up to from $10 to $15 a ton.
Must increase Nova Scotia coal mine output.
Coal men now have additional worries: possibilities of miners' strike and advanced freight rates threaten situation here.
Civic trading in food and fuel: legislation gives municipalities chance to curb cost of living : may build storehouses.

About three years ago the head of the Geological Survey Department of the United States sent a strong recommendation to Congress urging that the export of anthracite coal out of the United States should be stopped, giving as a reason that about two-thirds of the deposits of anthracite coal in the United States had already been exhausted and that the people of the United States were facing a condition which if carried on at the present rate of consumption of this coal would deplete the mines available for this supply of coaJ, within the next hundred years. This statement has been discussed with a great deal of emphasis in different parts of the United States. It has been favourably commented upon by many prominent men, and the condition is such as to warrant our immediate attention.
If the United States were -to place an export duty on their coal to Canada, we would be then compelled to do what we ought to do to-day, to look about for a source of supply of fuel to take care of our great requirements in this regard. We would ' then begin to realize that some effort should be made for the development of the poorer grades of fuel that are available almost at our very door.
The attention of geologists and mine owners, also the general public, especially during the past year, have been directed to the questions of the coal supplies and reserves in Canada, and on the Continent. The large increase in the consumption of coal in recent years makes this question of vital importance to this country. Only last year, for instance, we imported $42,000,000 worth of coal into Canada. Considering the constant increase in our imports I think hon. gentlemen will agree that this matter should receive out closest attention.
Canada has large supplies of coal situated in the Atlantic and Paoific regions; in the mountains of British Columbia and in the Plains regions of the Central Interior. On the Atlantic and Pacific seaboards, bituminous coals are extensively mined. The interior fields supply coals of various kinds, the coals of the mountains being the most important and of the highest grade. The province of Alberta forms Canada's largest coal reserve. The coal areas of Canada have an estimated total surface extent of one hundred and nine thousand one hundred and sixty-eight square miles.
In summing up the reports of the coal deposits in the world, Canada stands second among the nations in regard to her deposits.
Canada has 1,234,269 millions of tons available; the United States has 3,838,659 million tons available. Great Britain has only 189,000 millions of tons; Germany has
423,000	millions of tons .available. At Pic-tou, N.S., coal fields show an actual available supply of 390 million tons. In addition to this, the small fields and the estimated coal area in Nova Scotia will .amount to 400 millions of tons. The present output of coal fox Nova Scotia is about 3,000,000 of tons per annum. The coal is largely consumed in the East, much is exported, and a large quantity comes to Montreal.
We have only two ..deposits of anthracite coal worthy of mention in Canada. One is located in the Bocky Mountains, and the other in the Yukon. Neither of these is easy of access, nor capable of very great development. We use anthracite in our homes because of less smoke and smell. In the West they manage to keep fires in the houses all night with low grades of coal. If our furnaces w-ere changed to consume the smoke, we could use the lower grades of coal with comfort. Mr. Dowling, Canada's coal expert, says this can he done,, and we can use $5 coal instead of $8 or $10 coal and get more heat units per ton out of it by adapting our furnaces and heating appliances to its use. From Brandon,'Manitoba, east to the Atlantic coast, we are almost entirely dependent upon the United States for our anthracite coal for cooking and heating purposes.
The anthracite coal deposits of North America are fast becoming exhausted. The Americans admit that they have used twro-thirds of their total supply, and so we must expect that anthracite will increase in value as the years go by. We must therefore, investigate more closely our soft coal deposits and make every effort to develop them economically. We must also induce our people to make use of the tar-products taken from soft coal which are most valuable. One of the principal products taken from soft coal is ammonium sulphate, which iis used extensively as a fertilizer. We are now making a lot of toluol from Canadian soft coal taken out at Sydney Mines. This same firm has been making coke for the steel plants for years past. Soft coal can be transported from two ports in Nova Scotia, namely, Sydney and Piotou. This coal could go through our canals up the lakes to Port Arthur, and -might be able to compete in price with the soft coal brought from the United States, which is delivered to the ports along our inland .-waters. This

subject requires immediate investigation. Should an embargo be placed on coal coming into Canada from the United States this seems the most feasible way of" supplying the cities on our inland waters. The Government should inquire into the feasibility of handling grain east and coal west.
To obtain coal of a similar grade to that mined in Nova Scotia we have to go to the Rocky Mountains eight hundred miles west, of lyinnipeg. [DOT] For lower grades of soft coal, nearly the whole of the province of Alberta and the southern part of the province of Saskatchewan can be called one immense coal field. Some districts in southern Saskatchewan contain soft coal from ten to thirty feet in thickness, but it is of such a nature that when it is exposed to the air it dries to a powder.
Some definite effort should be made to develop the immense soft coal area in southern Saskatchewan. The Department of Mines know where the seams and exposures are located in the bulk of this immense coal field. Experiments have been made in Ottawa by the Mines Branch within the past few years which have gone to show that lignite coal similar to that located in Saskatchewan, when used in a gas producer, can be as economically handled as regards power as if it were anthracite, provided it is used in the localities where the coal is produced. The day may come when the power used in the great cities of our West will be produced at the mines. How can we make that coal in a shape that it can be shipped to other parts of the Dominion? We have demonstrated that it can be economically produced and used in the area where the mines are located, but what can be done to prepare it for export to other districts? Across the line from Saskatchewan, in Dakota, they have the same product. The University of Dakota took up the question of coal development. They tried to dry the coal and briquette the dust. Their early experiments were not successful, when exposed to the moisture in the air these briquettes would go to pieces. The next examination was to test the t^oseibility of treating the coal to make charcoal and then briquetting it. The result of this experiment is satisfactory and some effort should be made to develop this idea in Canada. Mr. Dowling is satisfied that a proper handling of soft coal in Saskatchewan could be made with briquetting it, and that this fuel would soon take the place of anthracite for home consumption, and would also

take the place of fuel for power purposes on the railways and in the manufacturing plants that are not already provided with gas.
As to the question of substitutes: For years in Germany there has been an absolute embargo on the soft coals and the lignites. They compel these all to be roasted and the tars and ammonium compounds extracted, before the charcoal or coke can be burned. The residue is a heavy coke, which takes the place of anthracite. This is one way of using the poorer grades of coal to advantage. The limit for hauling soft coal advantageously by the railway in the West at present is about Brandon, Manitoba. Ohio soft coal comes by water, and is handled at Port Arthur, the railway haul towards the west is cheaper than the railway haul towards the east, with grain and products being shipped from the West, the briquettes could be handled with advantage as far east as Winnipeg or Port Arthur.
Between Winnipeg and Montreal there are, generally speaking, no coal deposits. Therefore, the supply to the people and industries, between Winnipeg and Montreal must* come from the United States or be shipped in from Nova Scotia by boat up the lakes. Nova Scotia coal is a good grade of soft coal, and by the treatment just referred to, namely, the coking treatment, would form a good substitute for anthracite.
We 'have only one small area of lignite coal in Ontario and Quebec, and that is of a very inferior quality. It is located on the Moose River, James Bay slope, not far from the Transcontinental. It is in clay about twenty feet below the surface. The seams are only about three or four feet in thickness and would be most expensive and difficult to operate.
Electricity has given tremendous assistance in conserving our coal. It is said that if the electric power already established in Canada were dispensed with it would be necessary to import twice as much coal as is at present consumed in order to supply our people. By developing electricity we have made enormous savings in fuel, and we should investigate at once and see how much farther we can go in this regard. If we nationalize our railroads the Government may feel justified in electrifying large portions of our main lines, and in this way conserve the coal for other purposes. The Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul Railway hauls by electric power freight and passengers over 440 miles of its road, and is at present electrifying an additional 250 miles.

The officers of the road claim to have solved the coal supply problem, and the cost of operation by electricity is on'ly one-third that of operation by steam. In addition to this, one-third of all the equipment formerly used for the transportation of fuel has been released, and they claim to have doubled the capacity of the single line. Snow troubles, they also say, axe nearly eliminated and extreme cold has little effect on operation. Canada, with her immense water powers in the East and Central Provinces, and abundance of cheap coal in ithe West, may soon electrify the main lines, thereby conserving her fuel,
and use her steam equipment for branch and short hauls.
The British Empire is now known to possess very large reserves of coal. It is estimated that its share is very nearly one-quarter of the world's reserve. As one-half of the world's supply is estimated to be in territory owned by the United States of America, the present known supply for all the remaining nations is about equal to that of the British Empire.
The coal reserves of the various portions of the Empire are given in the following table:-
-	An- thracite coals.	Bit. coals.	Sub-bit. coals, brown coals and lignites.	Totals.Million tons.	Million tons.	Million tons.	Million tons.2,158 11,359 659	283,661 178,176 132,250 76,399 44,540 911 493 500	948,450 ' " 32,663 2,602	1,234,269 189,533 165,572 79,001 56,200 3,346 569 500 80 75
11,660			
			2,475 74	
Rhodesia		 		2			
			80	
		75		
				
	25,838	717,005	986,344	1,729,185
Canada appears to be an important storehouse, but, although it has large reserves, much of this is not available for the commerce of the Empire. Important supplies are, however, to be found on both the Atlantic and Pacific seaboards and may compete with foreign fuels.
The cretaceous rocks exposed in the western part of Manitoba are all marine deposits. Thin streaks of coal occur in this sandstone formation. Light-coloured shades appear in Turtle Mountain near the interior boundary line. In the lower slopes small lignite seams have been discovered. Professor Dowling claims that an estimate of the amount of coal covers a very small area of the ^slopes on the west of these hills, where the lower seams are workable.
The estimate given of coal areas in the different provinces of Canada is as follows :-
Metric Tons.
Nova Scotia		9,718,968
New Brunswick	 151,000
Ontario		25,000
Manitoba	 160,000
Saskatchewan	 59,812,000
Alberta	 1,072,627,400
Metric tons.
British Columbia	[DOT] [DOT]	76,034,942
Yukon	 4,940,000
Northwest Territories	. .	. .	4,800,000
Arctic Islands	 6,000,000
1,234,269,310
The ordinary growth of our provinces calls for cheaper power and cheaper fuel; and the development of our western provinces will depend to a large extent on the supply of cheap fuel and power. For, notwithstanding the existence of the enormous deposits of cbal in the extreme eastern and western portions of Canada, certain of the provinces are dependent on foreign sources for their supply. Conditions, however, may not continue as they are to-day. They may change suddenly and we may find ourselves deprived of fuel from the United States without warning. For such an event, we have made no provision; we have accumulated no extra store to meet such an emergency, but import only what is needed annually. For some time past, the strikes in the coal mines of the United States have demonstrated that conditions such as I have

mentioned must be reckoned with, while other causes than strikes, such as the great development of industries, and the demands of the railways for supply during the war, may deprive us for long periods of' this outside source of fuel. It is, therefore, wise for us to make provision for an emergency and seek within our own territory the means of supplying this all important necessity. Fortunately, nature has provided a substitute for coal and wood in the peat bogs scattered throughout our central provinces.
The population of our towns and cities is composed largely of wage earners. Our climate, for at least four or five months of the year, requires a large amount of fuel for family use; cheap and abundant fuel is a necessity of existence. There are cities in Canada where families are herded together with insufficient space for health and civilized life, because of the cost of fuel in the winter.
It may be safely said that there will be no permanent reduction in the price of coal; rather it is reasonably certain that there will be a gradual hut steady increase. Fuel will become higher as the years go by. The cost of development of heat from water power, in addition to maintenance and management, does not encourage us to believe that we will be able to use electricity as a poor man's fuel for many, many years to come. The price of anthracite and other coals is advancing largely because of exhaustion of the thicker beds, and increased costs of working, freight and transportation facilities. Anthracite coal is fast becoming the fuel of the rich.
In addition to this, manufacturing establishments are bound to increase and the coal consumption for power purposes will likely develop more rapidly. As coal becomes dearer, the difficulty and uncertainty of the supply becomes more accentuated, and the importance of a substitute fuel becomes more rfrgent. If, therefore, the great peat bogs of Canada could be successfully converted into fuel which would be cheaper than wood or coal the advantages thus conferred upon the future inhabitants of Canada and the United States could hardly be overestimated. The difficulties to be overcome do not appear to me to be very gieat when the attendant benefits are taken into consideration. The kinds of fuel available in Canada are:
The wood still standing.
Our oil deposits.
The oil contained in oil shales.

Gas.
Lignite coal.
Water powers (or white coal).
Anthracite coal.
Bituminous coal.
And our peat deposits.
Peat is incipient coal. It is made up of the more or less thoroughly decomposed and carbonized remains of plants accumulated under conditions that have prevented their complete transformation into gaseous and mineral matter. The successive stages in the process of carbonization, as it is reported in nature, is first peat, then lignite coal, anthracite and graphite, a form of carbon. For centuries, peat has been extensively used for domestic fuel by the peasantry of northern Europe. An important source of additional fuel for the more immediate future in Canada exists in our extensive peat bogs. These, and the great lignite areas of the northwest occupy a middle ground between coal on the one hand and such vegetable fuels as wood, etc., on the other.
With the reductica in our forest area, due to settlement and other causes, and the consequent rise in fuel prices, the development of these latent resources has become a matter of general and immediate concern. The development of these resources should proceed along such lines, and by such methods, as will secure the maximum of economic return.
For many years past efforts have been made to develop the peat areas in Ontario and Quebec. A large amount of money was frittered away by careless and useless endeavours to produce this material in a manner in which it might be marketable. However, some six years ago the Government decided to make a practical investigation into the peat producing areas of our country, and, if possible, demonstrate the advantages to be derived from peat production. They sent representatives to Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and Russia to gather data and material that could be utilized to advantage in Canada. On the return of these representatives the Government purchased 300 acres of the peat bog at Alfred, about forty, miles out of Ottawa, and prepared to demonstrate the commercial feasibility of the manufacturing of peat fuel by the employment of a process which is well known in Europe, and which was the only process for manufacturing peat economically. The Government manufactured 2,000 tons of peat in that bog; they sold this peat in Ottawa and vicinity to

householders and manufacturers for the purpose of introducing that form of fuel to the public and to obtain expressions of opinion regarding this fuel for domestic purposes. The various users of this fuel almost invariably expressed their satisfaction with peat as fuel. They further expressed their keen desire to continue the use of this fuel. I have 150 letters from people who used peat as fuel, and, with the exception of two or three, all speak in the highest terms of its heating qualities, its economy and efficiency.
After the completion of their experimental work, the Mines Branch felt that they had accomplished all that they should do, i.e., the demonstration that this peat could be manufactured at a low cost and transported economically, and that as a fuel it was satisfactory. The Mines Branch felt that further development should be left to private indiyiduals. They disposed of the plant and acreage to a firm who commenced the development of the industry. The private individuals then made some improvements to the plant, and during the year 1914 expected to carry on extensive developments. They were well under way with this work when the war broke out, but being supplied with a limited capital, they were seriously handicapped, and were compelled to close down their plant for lack of money to continue its operation. I regret to say that the plant is now in the hands of a receiver.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not want to interrupt my hon. friend (Mr. Armstrong), b,ut I am very much interested in the statement he makes as to the result of this experiment. What would be the price of coal as compared with the price of peat for heating purposes?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I will give that information a little further on. As far as I can learn, this was the only real live effort on sane lines in Canada for the development of the peat industry, and after I have explained to you the enormous areas of excellent peat bogs that are available, I feel confident that you will agree with me that some decided effort should be made at the earliest possible date to develop this industry. I believe that the Government should take over this bog immediately and continue to operate it. Manufactured peat at cost should be supplied to the municipalities convenient to the bog, and since the local Government of the province of Ontario have provided means whereby a city like Ottawa could purchase this fuel, the
city should arrange for at least 5,000 tons of peat to be stored for use next winter. Other cities should be placed in a similar position. What an advantage it would have been to the people of Ottawa this winter had the corporation of this city stored
5.000	or 10,000 tons of this fuel for distribution at cost to the poorer inhabitants of the city. I sincerely hope that the Government will see to it that -a decided effort is made at the earliest possible date to place within the reach of the people in Canada an abundance of this fuel for residential and manufacturing purposes.
From the Government's development of the peat bog at Alfred, it was proven conclusively that peat could be manufactured into blocks suitable for use in industries and in private homes at an actual cost of $1.75 per ton.


Mr. PARDEE:: Was that the retail price?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That was the price manufactured on the ground. Indeed, this was the actual cost of the production of the
2.000	tons of peat referred to. The railway charged one dollar per ton for its transportation to Ottawa, a distance of forty miles.
However, the peat was delivered at $5 per ton to manufacturers and householders, and from many sources I have obtained definite information sufficient to assure me that for residential purposes, in grates, in cook-stoves, in the ordinary heater, this has proved to be an ideal fuel. This is a practical demonstration of what can be accomplished, and a good reason why the Government should act. It.is true that anthracite coal has more heat units per ton, but the use of anthracite coal entails greater wastage, owing to incomplete combustion, and a larger percentage of ash. This is not necessary in the consumption of peat. Peat fuel is easily lighted, and it is not necessary to use a greater quantity than is required for cooking or heating at one time, while, on the other hand, anthracite undergoes very great wastage in this regard.
The European countries for centuries have been forced to use their natural resources. Some of these countries, which have not been richly endowed by nature with fuel resources, have been very generous in their interest towards the peat fuel industry. Large grants of money have been made annually in Sweden for the purpose of experimentation and research work, and sums of money set aside to be distributed as loans to persons desiring to engage in some phase of the peat industry. The Government of Sweden spends sixty

thousand dollars per annum in the encouragement of peat production. The Swedish Government are running their locomotives on the railways with peat powder. In Denmark, during the year 1913, 64 peat factories with 94 peat fuel plants were in operation. The demand for peat fuel in Denmark is very great.
The European war had an extraordinary effect on the peat market in Denmark. From the beginning of the war no coal has been imported, so the price of stored coal has increased all through the country. As the price went up, the demand for peat fuel developed into gigantic proportions. Dairies, brick manufactories and other manufactories started to use peat fuel, and seemed to be satisfied, in spite of the increased cost per brick for manufacture. In Russia, during the last few years, the peat fuel industry has been greatly developed. This is shown by the fact that peat fuel takes second place in the fuel consumption of the country. In 1909, 44 per cent of Russian crude oil, 33 per cent of air-dryed peat fuel, and 23 per cent of coal was used. Since then the production of peat has increased. As the cost of coal, crude oil and wood increases, the peat industry continues to develop.
The sale of machines for the manufacture of peat in Russia in the years 1912 and 1913 shows an increase of 400 per cent. It is estimated tlhat Russia is producing annually 10 million metric tons of peat fuel, out of which seven million tons are manufactured in the seven central Russian Provincial Governments. The United States, exclusive of Alaska, is estimated to have 11,200 square miles of peat bogs, averaging 9 feet in depth, and containing nearly 13,000,000,000 tons of fuel, worth, at $3 a ton, $39,000,000,000. Canada has 37,000 square miles of known peat bogs, but these form probably but a small fraction of the total, constituting a potential national asset of enormous value. The peat resources of Canada exceed those of any other country with the exception of Russia- During the period from 1908 to 1914 the Mines Branch in Canada located, mapped and investigated 140,000 acres of peat bogs in Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Manitoba, all convenient to railways and markets, estimated to be capable of yielding 115,000,000 tons of fuel and
10,500,000	tons of peat moss litter. Why do we not make use of the information obtained by our Government experts? Seven Ontario Bogs within convenient shipping 
distance of Toronto will yield 26,500,000 tons of fuel. Four bogs within a few miles of Ottawa are estimated to contain over 25,000,000 tons. Seven bogs in the Montreal district -could furnish that city with 23,500,000 tons of fuel. Five bogs along the St. Lawrence, below Quebec and convenient to that city by water, could supply 16,250,000 tons of fuel and 5,750,000 tons of peat moss litter. Nova Scotia Bogs examined in Yarmouth, Shelburne and Lunenburg counties will produce 6,250,000 tons of fuel and 500,000 tons of litter. Six bogs investigated in Prince Edward Island can furnish 1,250,000 tons of fuel and over 1,000,000 tons of litter. Seven bogs examined in Manitoba will produce 2,000,000 tons of fuel and
2,500,000	tons of litter.
Apart from the potential value of our peat bogs as a subsidiary source of fuel supply and for the production of sulphate of ammonia, there are numerous other products such as moss litter, peat dust, alcohol, acetic acid, acetone, tar, tar oils, creosote, ga9, etc., which might form the basis of paying industries, giving employment to many people, where now we have only waste lands-
As to the comparative heating value of peat fuel as delivered to the consumer, it may be said that, comparing
10 p.m. the actual heating va/lues, one ton of hard coal is equivalent to 11 tons of peat with a moisture content of 25 per cent; but, in order to arrive at a fair comparison, it is necessary to understand and carefully consider certain factors which, under certain conditions, would turn the scale in favour of peat fuel. As a fuel for cook stoves, ranges, etc., peat fuel will prove more economical than -anthracite, since, with coal, the fire must be burned continuously, and, moreover, the refuse, i. e., ash, contains a very large proportion of combustible matter.
The manufacture of sulphate of ammonia is a matter of great importance to the people of Canada. Our peat bogs in Canada are high in nitrogen, running about 2 per cent. In Italy they are running their peat bogs with a little over 1 per cent of sulphate of ammonia- Ammonium sulphate is a very valuable artificial fertilizer, for which there is a continually increasing demand in almost all parts of the world, and a ready market could be found for all the sulphate of ammonia that could be produced in Canada.
At a time like the present when stock is being taken of the natural resources of the

country, the importance of these investigations will be readily recognized. The estimated yield of 19 bogs in Ontario and Quebec, if used to produce ammonium sulphate, would give a production of 81,696,416 tons of fuel. With a production of sulphate of ammonia amounting to 4,025,525 tons which at a valuation of $65 per ton, which is a very low estimate, the value would amount to $261,659,775.
Intense agriculture has filled the granaries of the world, but fertilizers have become absolutely necessary. Soil fertility is urgently demanded. Appetite has come with eating and our demands and wants are increasing day by day. Inoculation of soil Has become an established success. Bacterized peat has been used most successfully as a medium for this purpose. Experiments in England made by Professor Bottomley, Botanical Laboratories, University of London, Kings College, as described in a book entitled " Spirit of the Soil," written by C. D. Knox, shows that treated peat gives as much as 50 to 80 times great-' er results than the best rotted stable manure, that it is free from smell, dust, weeds, disease spores and insect pests, is clean and pleasant to handle. After seven years of experiments, the American Board of Agriculture are distributing a similar preparation to farmers and recommending its use. Bacterized peat opens a field for every farmer and gardener to undertake important scientific work, in order to increase the yield from the land.
In addition to this, Dr. Eugene Haanel, the head of the Mines Branch, makes the following estimate:
that the gas available in working the large Teefleld bog for sulphate of ammonia would produce 4,000 H.P. continuously for 86 years, a total of 344,000 H.P., the total power gas available in conjunction with the utilization of all the bogs in Canada would amount to over 5,000,000 B.H.P.
Peat burns with a much smaller air supply than coal, consequently less heat is wasted than with the greater draft required to burn coal.
I believe it is the duty of this Government to take over certain peat bogs and .lignite mines and furnish the material at cost to our people. Greatly increased prices for the coming winter must be expected, and urdess some immediate action is taken, great hardships are bound to ensue. The peat bog at Alfred, Ont., is capable of immediate development, and at least 1,000 tons of peat per month could be manufactured in this bog during the summer and


REVISED
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fall. It is estimated that there are 3,000 interned Germans in the camps in our country; a. sufficient number of men from these camps could be employed on our peat bogs, near London, Toronto, Montreal and Quebec, to produce a supply of fuel. After the material is manufactured, it is up to the municipalities to purchase the peat and see that: it is delivered at cost to the artisan or' the farmer. The mayor of this city should have at least 5,000 tons of this material on hand for distribution during the coming winter. Similar amounts, only larger, should be stored in Toronto and Montreal, and other -cities.
In the western provinces, lignite coal should be made available for distribution to the farmers and others, and I believe that a sufficient quantity of soft coal should he brought from the mines at Sydney or thereabout, up the St. Lawrence, and distributed to the municipalities, if for no other reason than an experiment. The day may soon come when elevators will be built in Sydney harbour and boats carry coal west and wheat east.
I cannot urge too strongly on the Government the need of immediate attention to this subject. The more I investigate it, * the more convinced I am that, unless some radical steps are taken, serious suffering and hardship will be the lot of thousands of our people. During our long winter we are dependent upon artificial heat in our homes. Owing to the continual increase in the amount of fuel required for industrial purposes, and .the yearly advance in the price of fuel, I respectfully urge that the Government should tak-e over the -peat bog at Alfred at once, and also commence operations near Toronto, Montreal and Quebec, in order to establish the confidence of the people of Canada in the value of peat as a domestic and industrial fuel, and to stimulate activity in the development of our peat resources. In addition to this I respectfully urge the Government to investigate all other means of supplying our people with an abundance of fuel.
It is important that we take this matter up for the following reasons: The outlook for sufficient fuel from the United States is uncertain. We are -dependent -for a large portion of our fuel- on American resources.
It would mean the development of other profitable industries in Canada. The development of our peat bogs and other mines will furnish additional employment to Canadians in Canada.
The statistics which I have furnished have 'been gathered with greatest of care from
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the departments of the Government connected with the advancement of these industries, and I submit them for the careful consideration of the Hpuse.
William Ashbury Buchanan: Mr. Speaker, the resolution moved by the member for East Lambton (Mr. J. E. Armstrong) is of considerable interest to the part of Canada from which I cpme. This House may be surprised to know that the province of Alberta has the greatest coal resources of any province in Canada; indeed, its coal resources are very much greater than those of British Columbia or Nova Scotia, the provinces whose production ranks next to that of Alberta. It is estimated in the report of the Department of Mines that Alberta's coal resources amount to 1,072,627,400,000 metric tons. If the Alberta coal mines were operating the year round, they would produce far more than would be consumed in western Canada, but owing to the various labour troubles which we have almost annually the mines do not operate regularly and the supply of coal is not such as the resources are able to furnish or even sufficient to meet the demands of the western consumers. We cannot get be-' yond Winnipeg with Alberta coal because of the competition of Pennsylvania coal. The freight rates interfere; and there is the difficulty of storing lignite coal from the prairies. If the proposed treatment of western c.oal is successful, it will make a very great difference in that respect,- but one of the great difficulties at present encountered in handling western coal is the impossibility of storing it for any great length ^ of time. The reason why the competition [DOT]of Pennsylvania coal comes so close to the supply in western Canada as Manitoba is found almost wholly in the cheap transportation rates by water.
Vessels moving the grain down the Great Lakes require traffic in return, and they offer a very cheap rate for the transportation of Pennsylvania coal to Manitoba and the head of the ilakes. It is almost impossible for those handling Alberta coal to meet that condition. It would be of great value to the labour market in the mines of the West -if there was a steady market all the year round; production would be increased, a.nd steady employment would be assured. Uncertainty of employment is one of the difficulties experienced in the mines of the West. At present we have a very serious strike in all the mines of British Columbia. I have a wire to-night from Lethbridge stating that the steam coal situ-
[>Mr. Armstrong.]
ation is extremely serious and may affect some of the railroads in western Canada because sufficient steam coal has not been stored to meet the urgent demands being made at present. We have these difficulties from time to time. If it were possible to carry out the idea that the member for East Lambton has in mind and to find a market for the coal throughout the various parts of Canada, it would be of great assist- -ance to the coal industry in western Canada and, I assume, in other parts of the Dominion as well. But I am not very confident that that can be done. The only thing that can be hoped for in connection with the domestic coal mining industry on the prairies is a rapid development of the West so that the consumption of coal will increase sufficiently to warrant the operation of more mines and the production of more coal. In my part of the country the coal mining business has not been profitable to those who have invested in it. In some cases the coal mining business has been overdone, and I do not know of any very large dividends being paid by any coal mining company in the southern part of the province of Alberta. This is due to a great extent to the lack of a steady market, of a steady demand for the coal and of an all-year-round operation of the mines. We have in Canada sufficient fuel resources to meet all our needs for years to come, if the supply could only be directed to the various parts of our own country-the coal resources of the West brought further East than at present, and those of the East brought further West. .	.
I should like to see something develop from the proposal of the member for East Lambton, but I am not very hopeful that it will toe of any 'benefit at present to the coal resources of western Canada unless some treatment can be devised which will permit the storing of the coal and enable it to be transported further away from its present source of supply.


John Gillanders Turriff: quire fuel and many of whom are buying and using the coal that comes from Pennsylvania, whereas we have at our own doors the making of a first class fuel if we had someone to take hold of the business who would be prepared to spend a little money in making experiments and putting in the necessary plants. I agree, therefore, with my hon. friend that the Government should take hold of this matter and experiment. The provincial government of Saskatchewan put in an experimental plant which has proved to a .certain extent what can be done, but that Government has not gone far enough; whoever takes hold of the business must go further and spend more money in making experiments. We have there such vast deposits of lignite that we could shut off the importation of several million dollars' worth of hard and soft coal from Pennsylvania and other eastern States and give a fuel equally as good in every respect. The fuel that is produced out of this lignite is a carbonized coal something like coke, and it will furnish as much heat to the ton as anthracite. I trust, therefore, my hon. friend who is leading the House will give this matter proper consideration and see if something cannot be done. This is an economic question for this country. Every million dollars' worth of material that we can produce in this country and that we can use in this country is a million dollars saved to the people of Canada. If this fuel is produced, those who are living in the vicinity will have this advantage that they will get the quality of fuel they want at a lower price than they are paying at the present time, because although coal is cheap in that district in its present shape it costs anyone using large quantities of it very nearly as much as to send further away and pay extra freight and get a higher quality of coal. If this lignite is going to take the place it should take, it should be put into smaller bulk so that there would be less freight and less handling. I am absolutely sure that some day not in the very distant futuTe, in the coal fields in the southwestern end of my constituency, within less than 100 miles of the province of Manitoba, there will be established plants which will use that cheap coal for generating electricity, and throughout southern Saskatchewan from Moosejaw south and throughout the southwestern corner of Manitoba electric power for lighting and cooking will be generated from that coal


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: We are going to get our heat from straw, I understand.


John Gillanders Turriff: I am not posted on that, so I shall not say a word against it; it may be a good scheme. I am talking of these deposits of coal. I am sure that they could be * very easily mined, and p.ower cheaply developed by means of a generating plant. All you would have to do would be to run a shaft* into the wheel, coal it out, and dump it right into the boiler room, and one of these days that will happen. But I want to impress on the Minister of Finance and, the 'Minister of Labour that it will not happen of itself; some one must take hold of the thing arid give it a start. I trust that the Government will look into this question thoroughly and see whether the statements I have made are not perfectly justified. I have lived within a few miles of these coal fields for many, many years. I have visited them hundreds of times, and I know something about the extent of coal that is there. I am certain that if the experiments were continued a great enterprise would soon be under way and millions of money would be kept in this country that is now going to the United States in payment for coal for our well-to-do people in the cities and in the country too.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Has any estimate
been made of the quantity of coal at Este-van?


John Gillanders Turriff: There is an estimate inthe report of the Department of Mines. The report gives the figure for the wh.ole province as 59,812,000,000 tons; the great bulk of that is on the western side of Saskatchewan, and not in the part of the country I am speaking of. I have no doubt that in this report, if I had time to look through it, I could find an estimate for this particular part of the c.ountry, but I know of my own knowledge they have been mining there for twenty or thirty years, and there are dozens of .sections that are underlaid with coal all the way from six to twelve feet thick. A twelvedoot seam gives about 12,000 tons, to the acre of saleable coal, outside altogether ol waste and what is left in the ground, and I do not think there has been a square mile of coal mined in all that territory yet; we are taking up only from three to four hundred thousand tons a year. There is coal enough there to last as long as our grandchildren; the extent of it has never been gauged. A farmer

twenty miles beyond the supposed limits of the coal area will very often strike a seam from six to ten feet thick if he goes down 300 feet. West of Estevan are what were formerly called the Dirt Hills, which were not supposed to be good from an agricultural point of view, but which are now settled and growing good crops of wheat, and which contain considerable deposits of coal. In the country south of Moosejaw there are outcroppings of coal right along, and the settlers dig the coal up and keep themselves in fuel all the year round. This applies to the whole country south of Regina, but more particularly to that country about forty miles south of Moosejaw. Then, again, about 200 miles west of the Estevan [DOT]oal fields there are out-croppings of coal near the Wood Mountain. In fact, there is coal practically all through the southern portion of the province. In the western part of the province the quality of lignite is better, and is called by some people Galt coal. At Taber there are huge deposits, and also at Medicine Hat, where they' mined coal in the old days twenty-five years ago. So my hon. friend need not -worry about the extent of the coal deposits. The coal is there, and is only awaiting the hand of man to dig it up. If these deposits were in Germany, or France, or any other of the thickly populated countries of Europe a fine fuel would soon be made out of this lignite, which is about the poorest quality we have in the West, and they would be able to make enough out of the by-products alone to pay for the expense of mining. All I ask is that the Government look into this matter thoroughly, and I am sure that if they will continue the experiments they will see that the enterprise is well worth going into.


George Ewan McCraney: Most of the discussion that has taken place so far on this resolution has been with regard to lignite. My hon. friend from Souris (Mr. Schaffner) has raised another matter which I wish to discuss for a few moments, and that is the use of straw for fuel. It must appeal to any one who has been through western Canada and seen the great quantities of straw that are burned on our farms during the fall season, what a tremendous waste is going on of material which could be devoted to some economic purpose. Straw is of no value as a fertilizer, and various experiments have been made with a view to its utilization either as a fuel or in some other manner. My attention was directed especially to it a
couple of months ago when I was in Moosejaw with Mr. Knowles, a member of this House, also Mr. George W. Brown, formerly Lieutenant Governor of the province, and Professor R. D. McLaurin of Saskatoon University. We visited a machine shop where experiments were being conducted by a Mr. Harrison, who is the inventor of a process for extracting gas from straw. The method is by means of a retort in which the straw is placed, and, under heat the gas is driven out into a receptacle called a scrubber, which contains water and iron filings. There the gas is cleansed, and then it passes into a gasometer. In the process of passing through the scrubber a tar is given off which runs, I understand, some ten gallons to the ton, and which is black in colour and heavy in composition. It contains the elements of coal-tar, and is consequently useful in the manufacture of by-products of coal-tar. While any straw may be used in this process, it is said that flax straw gives the best results. I saw cooking being done, stoves heated, and gas engines run by means of this gas. The gas is a blue flame, and a mantle is used for lighting. Apparently it is a very pure gas, f.or after being under a vessel for some time very little carbon is shown. It is estimated that twenty tons of straw a year would light and furnish heat for cooking for a seven-roomed farm house. I am told that one hundred tons a year would provide all the heat, light and power that would be used about an ordinary farm. Mr. Harrison said to me that he could use a tank of the same size as a gasolene tank of a Ford car and, by compressing the gas in it, could carry enough gas to run a Ford ear for 100 miles. If that would work out, it pretty well solves the power problem in the West. When one bears in mind that straw runs about two tons to the acre, it is easy to see what tremendous quantities are available, what practically unlimited quantities are in the possession of every farmer.
The apparatus to which I have referred is very simple in construction. I do not know that it is yet being manufactured for sale. Fortunately it can be used in small plants, and so individual farmers may have it, and I have every reason to believe that for less than $1,000 it can be installed, covered and ready for use. From the retort the residue is the carbonized straw. It is said to run about 1,400 pounds to the ton, and the suggestion is made that it might be used ip briquetting. I have not seen any briquet-


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The question raised by the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. J. E. Armstrong) is a very important one particularly to the part of the country from which I come. The most practical problem involved is the opening of the ways of transportation between the far East of Canada and the West. In the East we have coal in abundance, and other commodities also that are required in the West, while Ontario and the West has abundance of things that we need. To make possible the exchange of these commodities is the problem. Of course, this is not a new question with myself, coming as I do from the coal fields of Nova Scotia and having realized long ago the importance of being able to send our coal, our lumber, and other products, into Ontario and the West in competition with the United States and other places which may seek the same markets.
It would seem that the deepening of our waterways is the true solution of the question. If steamers can be loaded at Port Arthur for Atlantic ports or any ports intervening, and, reversely, steamers can be loaded at Atlantic ports for the trip up the St. Lawrence and the Great Lakes to Port Arthur and intervening ports, the problem will be solved. I submit to the Minister of Finance and the Government that nothing more deserves their attention than the deepening of our waterways. I submit that the construction of the Hudson Bay Railway or the Georgian Bay canal should not be considered in comparison with the practical question of deepening the canals of the St. Lawrence. Jf it were passible for us to load coal in Sydney fox Port Arthur and intervening ports, we should be in a position to give to the people of Ontario excellent fuel for all purposes. It has been, represented by some that Nova Scotia coal is not a good coal for domestic purposes. I can assure hon. members-and many people in the Maritime Provinces can bear me
[Mr McCraney.]
out-that it is a very excellent article for domestic purposes. And if it is necessary to convert it into coke, it has proven its worth in that way; we have large steel works in Nova Scotia deDending altogether on coke from our own coal. If facilities were placed at the command of our people we should be able to land our coal, our iron, our steel, our coke, as well as tar and chemicals produced from coal, our potatoes, lumber, and other articles which we have in abundance, in Ontario ports, and even send them to .points in the West. In return, we would take from Ontario flour, wheat, corn, bacon, and manufactured goods, and from the West the products that they have in abundance there. The use of oux coal would afford cheap power for the manufactories of Ontario. On the other hand, we would be able to lay down in these sections cheap coal of a most excellent quality. Instead of thinking about storing wheat in elevators on Hudson Bay, if you deepened the canals and opened up a way from Port Arthur to Atlantic ports, such as Halifax, North Sydney and Louisburg, your elevators would be built at Halifax, North Sydney and Louisburg, where you have the open ocean without a speck of ice to interfere with you all the year round. You can store your wheat there and you are not under the necessity of having your wheat in elevators at Port Arthur, Montreal and other places for the greater part of the year ice hound. The ships that would bring up coal, lumber and other articles as well would carry wheat back and a profitable trade would be established through the Great Lakes. Store the coal for winter purposes in convenient places in the West. There is no trouble in your erecting elevated chutes or pockets by erecting trestles over railways and alongside of wharves from where you discharge your coal, so that your cars would run under these chutes at any time in the winter and it would toe easy to handle the coal. That is the way they store coal in chutes at the great coal centres of Nova Scotia. The -coal is ready in two or two and a half hours to load the largest ship that comes alongside the pier. In like manner you could store coal at central places in the West, and your coal cars could run under these chutes and get the coal. You have the opportunity of storing your wheat on the Atlantic coast and storing your coal at whatever places in the West may toe found convenient toy this interchange of traffic once the canals are deepened. I may be talking without knowledge. I have no great knowledge of what is necessary to deepen these

canals, but we do know that they are now down to a depth of 14 feet. It is expected that the Welland canal will soon be down to a depth of 25 feet, and if that can be done on the Welland canal, and if they have been able to go to a depth of 14 feet on the various other ' canals, there is no reason why they should not be brought down to the proper depth. It would be a magnificent boon to the country and something that would redound to the general advantage of all Canada.
We have a supply of coal, iron and steel in Nova Scotia which is inexhaustible, and there need be no fear that great expense will be put on the canals and that the facilities will not be profitable because we have not a sufficient supply. I do not know that it is any exaggeration to state that the coal belt of Nova Scotia is 250 miles 'long, extending from Louisburg, on the Atlantic, away down around the sinuosities of the Gulf of St. Lawrence to Cumberland, about 250 miles of coast, averaging between 10 and 25 miles wide. That magnificent belt of coal has only really been touched here and there although millions of tons are being taken out of it. With these great opportunities for the development of coal, iron and steel, lumber and other forest products and with the capabilities of Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia in the production of root crops that would be available to our friends in the West, a magnificent opportunity would be established for a permanent and profitable trade within our own bounds, making us forever independent practically of anybody outside of Canada. I felt that it was incumbent upon me, in view of the great interest that is taken in. this matter by the people living in the part of the country from which I come, to make these observations. I feel under a debt of gratitude to my hon. friend from East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) for having brought this 'very practical and important subject before the House and the country.


William Thomas White: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry my hon.
friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) is not present this evening because it had been his intention to speak on this resolution. I join in the expression of gratitude ef the hon. member who has just taken his seat (Mr. McKenzie) towards the mover of this resolution, the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) for his very able exposition of the subject and for the painstaking attention that he has evidently bestowed on the
preparation of the speech in which he has brought it to the attention of the House. I followed his remarks with the closest attention and all who have spoken are unanimous in their view as to the extreme importance of the question of the fuel supply of the Dominion. My hon. friend from East Lambton has truly pointed out that our supplies of bituminous and anthracite coal-or more properly bituminous coal, because we have comparatively little anthracite developed-lie on.the extreme east and west and that, in so far as the central provinces are concerned, Quebec and Ontario are largely dependent for their c.oal supply upon the United States to the south. The province of Ontario is dependent at the present time for the bituminous coal -supply used in connection with its great industries upon the United States. The hon. member for East Lambton has pointed out that this is a -situation which might at some time give rise to apprehension. In that connection I might mention the great importance to the province of Ontario of the development of her unexcelled water powers. These water powers, I think, will play an increasingly important part in the economy of Ontario and Quebec and of other provinces as weE in the future, and in the electrical development of the country as applied to production. I think that Canada has the greatest resources in water powers of any country in the world, and certainly the future will witness a very great development in that connection. The hon. member for North Cape Breton has pointed out the great resources of Nova Scotia and Cape Breton Island in coal. He has stated, and I think truly, that their resources in that respect are practically inexhaustible. In Nova Scotia, and especially in Cape Breton Island, there are available for the production of coke and steel all the natural elements required comprising the iron ore which is procured from Belle Isle, limestone in practically unlimited quantities, as well as immense resources in coal, the coal areas extending out underneath the sea. So that, so far as Nova Scotia herself is concerned, her industrial future would seem to be assured. But there is coal there in amounts more than adequate for even her increasing industrial requirements, and my hon. friend to-night has expressed the opinion that if the St. Lawrence canals were deepened that coal might be made available for the requirements of central -and western Canada. I think there is a great deal to he said for that view. The

deepening of the Welland canal had been proceeding apace before the outbreak of the war, and I have no doubt that upon the conclusion of the war, as soon as it is financially practicable to resume work, the deepening of that canal will be completed-And I should look forward myself to the deepening also of the St. Lawrence canals, as my hon. friend has suggested. I think that is bound to come in the development of -Canada. The war naturally interrupted many of these projects which had engaged our attention before its outbreak. How long it will last, of course, we do not know, or how much expense it will entail upon the country. Until we do know that it is premature to express an opinion as to the undertaking of these large works, no doubt of national importance, all of them, which engaged the attention of this and preceding 'Governments in the past, and will undoubtedly engage the attention of Governments in the future, after the war is over.
The question of the development of our peat resources has been touched upon. There is no doubt that these resources are vast. I have no practical knowledge as to peat, but so far as my experience has gone, up to date its commercial development does not appear to have been practicable. The industry has always appeared promising, and yet when capital has been invested in it, with the outlook, so far as one could judge most favourable, conditions have arisen under which success has not been possible, and money has been lost. The result is that, so far as Ontario is concerned, the peat industry has not attained any considerable dimensions or its development met with any considerable degree of success, at least that is my impression. But while that is so, it by no means follows that the future development of the peat industry is destined t.o such a fate. It is quite possible that, with the progress of 11 p.m. invention and with the increase in population, peat may play a large part in our future domestic and industrial economy. I think that very probable. So far as the West is concerned, it has been pointed out by the hon. member for Assinib.oia (Mr. Turriff) to-night that the coal or lignite areas there are practically inexhaustible. I think that is so. In Saskatchewan and Alberta we know there are many deposits of coal and lignite. The difficulty, it appears to me, at the present time, is that you have a comparatively sparse population, and as success in mining coal of that character will depend on 
demand and demand immediately at hand, because transporati.on difficulties have to to be taken into consideration, notwithstanding the best efforts that might be put forth, the development of the fuel areas of Saskatchewan and Alberta as well as the southern part of Manitoba must proceed rather slowly. The hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Buchanan) has pointed out another reason which inclines me to the same view. So far as British Columbia is concerned, we have got the bituminous c.oal there from which is produced the coke which is indispensable in connection with the industries of southern British Columbia. All these considerations indicate the extreme importance of the question of c.oal and other fuel for the industrial development of Canada. Of almost as great importance, though not quite as great, is the question of the supply and cheapness of fuel, soft and hard coal, and lignite if it can be made available, for domestic use. The question will 'probably become more acute as the population of the country increases, and I myself would hope to see, apart from any action of the Government, a progressive demand for fuel, such as soft coal and lignite, for these purposes. But my hon. friend is right in urging that the Government should give special attention to the whole question, because it touches vitally our production and the comfort of our people, -and is therefore one of the larger problems of Canada.
So far as I can see, the resolution is one which might well be adopted by the House. I shall make it a point to bring it to the attention of the Minister of Mines and the. department under him. I would suggest to the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) that the resolution be amended to read instead of "through legislation and otherwise," "through legislation or otherwise." It has not been shown that legislation is necessaray in this connection. Of course, if any legislation is necessary, the Government could bring it down. If the hon. member will make that slight change, I think that, so far as the Government is concerned, the resolution may be accepted. We are all as one as to the extreme importance of the matter, and while the energies of the Government must necessarily be engrossed by the war, still I see no reason why the department should not go carefully into the matter, and if there is anything which the Government can do at the present time, we shall be only too glad to do it.


William Pugsley: 
Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I appreciate the generous treatment which the House has

given this resolution, and I appreciate also the words of the hon. member for St. John city. He has called attention to the development of electricity in Canada. I do not think that he was present when I was referring to that subject. I called attention to the fact that were it not for the present development of electricity in Canada, we should be compelled to import from the United States and other outside points an amount of coal equal to the amount which we are importing to-day, and I urged the Government to see if it was possible to find other means of developing electrical energy in Canada. What I am particularly urging on the Government is the need of investigating the fuel resources of Canada; that steps should be taken to see whether the available fuel supply-electricity and oil shales included, if you like-in our country can be developed along scientific and practical lines, in order that our people may be able to secure fuel at a more reasonable rate than that at which- they are now securing it. I feel that we should dispose of the resolution to-night, because the days are going by when private members have the opportunity of taking up such resolutions. If the Finance Minister would agree to have the resolution include electrical energy and oil shales, I have no objection whatever. I call attention to the fact that we have a commission appointed for scientific research, composed of a number of prominent men from the different universities, including Professor MacCallum, who is at its head. It would be their duty, I think, to take this matter up and see if they could develop it along practical, rational and common sense lines.


William Thomas White: In order that this motion may be disposed of, I would suggest that the hon. member for East Lambton amend it by inserting after the word "peat" on the seventh line the words "Oil shales," and after the word "deposits" on the seventh line the words "and water-powers."
Motion as amended agreed to.


ADJOURNMENT FOR HOLIDAY.
William Thomas White: Next Thursday being Ascension Day and a holiday, I move:
That when this House adjourns on Wednesday, the 16th instant, it stand adjourned until Friday, the 18th instant.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.\
On motion of Sir Thomas White, t-he House adjourned, at "11.20 p.m.
Tuesday, May 15, 1917.