1917-06-14

PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 79, respecting a patent of Ernest Mead Baker.-Mr. Robb.

Bill No. 80, respecting a certain patent of The Sharp Rotary Ash Receiver Company, Incorporated.-Mr. Currie.
Bill No. 81, respecting a patent of James B. King and others.-Mr. Macdonell.

Mr. COPP:: 1.	What was the total cost of the renewal of Peniac bridge on the Fredericton division of the Intercolonial Railway?
2.	How many concrete piles were used in the construction of same, and what was the total length of said piles?
3.	What was the oost per lineal foot for said piles?
4.	What was the cost of labour in the renewal of this bridge?
5.	How many days was the track pile driver used on this work, and at what cost per day, including the cost of fuel?
6.	What is the length of said bridge?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	Total cost, $9,009.28, which includes $2,011.53 for improving grade by raising track.
2.	Thirty concrete piles were used, with a total length of 904 feet.
3.	$1.40 per lineal foot, f.o.b. Peniac._
4.	$5,339.80.
5.	Twenty-one days at a cost of $31.42 per day, which includes fuel and labour.
6.	Eighty-one feet.



INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-MILFORD BALLAST PIT.

Mr. COPP:: 1.	When was the property known as the Milford ballast pit purchased by the Government, and at what price?
2.	How many acres were purchased in this property, and from whom?
3.	What was the cost of the right of way to said ballast pit?
4.	How far is said ballast pit from the main line of the Intercolonial Railway?
5.	What engineers or other officials examined the material in said ballast pit and recommended the purchase of same?
6.	What was the total cost of constructing line from main line to said pit?
7.	How much material has been taken from said pit?
8.	What is the estimated quantity remaining in said pit?
9.	Has said ballast pit been abandoned?
10.	If so, why?
11.	Where was the material used that was taken from said pit?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 

BAY STATE FISH COMPANY.

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Is the Bay State Fish Company permitted to land fish fares at Digby, N.S., to the Maritime Fish Corporation without payment of customs duties?
2.	If customs duties are paid, are the same remitted?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1 and 2. No. This company is given no exceptional privileges in Canadian ports.



INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-GRAND NARROWS BRIDGE.

Mr. COPP:: 1.	What is the height of the stone piers in the Grand Narrows bridge on the Intercolonial Railway?
2.	How far are said piers below high water mark and how far above low water mark?
3.	How long since the said stone piers were built?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1. The only information the department has in this regard is from the as-built plans of the Cape Breton railway, which is as follows:-
Top of pier to bottom:
Pier (from west end).	Of Crib	UnderNo.	1	
[DOT]	74'	6"tt	2 	77'	10"ii	3	81'	8"4	80'	8"5	72'	10"it	6 	71'	4"it	T	35'	0"
2. This question is not clear, but from the records the relationship of average high water level to top of piers is as follows:-
Top of Pier.	Above High Water Level.
No.	1	
5'	3""	2	
5'	3""	3	
5'	3""4	
5'	3"*[DOT]	5	
5'	0"**	g	5'	3"
(High part.)
"6	 4'	0"
(Low part.)
..7	  0'	3"
The department has no record of the distance from the tops of piers to low water level, but according to tide tables of 1917 the range between high water level and low water level in the Bras d'Or lakes is about one foot.
3. According to the as-constructed plans of the Cape Breton railway, these piers were completed in 1890.



GOVERNMENT LANDS AT DIGBY.

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Who is the holder of the lease of Government lands at Digby whereon troops of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces were located in 1915 and 1916, and what rental was paid for the same?


Sir EDWAKD KEMP:: Mr. G. E. Torrie. Mr. Torrie was allowed a rebate of $10 on the rental for the year 1916, on account of the occupation of the ground by troops. The rent is $20 per annum.



PROHIBITION OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. KYTE:: I have received a number of petitions and memorials from churches and temperance organizations asking that legislation be introduced at the present session to provide for Dominion-wide prohibition. Is it the intention of the Government to introduce such legislation during the present session?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: I have already explained that the subject is under consideration of the Minister of Justice as to certain legislation. Any further announcement that may be necessary will be made in due course.



THE MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.


Mr. W. E. KNOWLES (Moosejaw):: 1 desire to make a suggestion with regard to the so-called Conscription Bill, the second reading of which, I understand, is to be moved early next week. It is almost certain that the debate will occuy at least a week, that is, there is little possibility of reaching a division next week. I am sure there are many members who would

like to visit their ridings and speak to some of their electors on the point. I know I would. If the Prime Minister could see his way clear to have an understanding on the part of the House that a vote would not be permitted within a week from the day the second reading is proposed, I do not think it would do any harm. Of course, it is almost certain that the debate will take that long, but at the same time one does not like to take the chance of absenting himself when a vote of such importance is in prospect. The right hon. gentleman may not wish to answer at once, but I would suggest that he should take the matter into consideration, and tell us later if such an arrangement as I propose could be made.


Robert Laird Borden: Of course, as I stated yesterday, I would like to proceed with the measure at the earliest possible moment. On the'other hand, I desire to meet as far as reasonable the wishes of hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House. I will take what my hon. friend has said into consideration.



LAKE OF THE WOODS WATER LEVEL.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: I see it stated in the press that the International Joint Commission have made a very important report fixing the level of the waters of the Lake of the Woods. If this report has been made can it be laid on the Table?


Robert Laird Borden: If any such report has been made it has not yet come to my attention. As soon as the matter comes before me I will give it consideration, and will inform my right hon. friend (Sir'Wilfrid Laurier) or will lay the report on the Table.



HON. ROBERT ROGERS.


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Wilfrid Laurier: It is reported that the Commission appointed to make an investigation in the case of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) is sitting in Montreal?


Robert Laird Borden: I understand that it is sitting.


Wilfrid Laurier: Are the sessions private or public?


Robert Laird Borden: I have no official information on the subject. The Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) if he were

here, could probably give more information on this subject than I can give. I have heard nothing about the matter at all since the Order in Council was passed, except that I understood incidentally from other information that the Commission had the evidence before them and were looking over it.


Wilfrid Laurier: I will renew my question to-morrow.



REMOVAL OF RAILS FOR USE IN FRANCE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. OLIVER:: The Minister of Railways (Mr. Cochrane) has laid on the Table a report, with blue print, regarding the lifting of rails on the Grand Trunk west of Edmonton. When I spoke on this subject some days ago, I think the hon. gentleman said that he would lay on the Table a similar report in regard to the lifting of rails on the Transcontinental.


Mr. COCHRANE:: I have not got that ready, but expect to have it to-morrow or Monday at latest.



STRIKE OF BRANTFORD MOULDERS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. NESBITT:: Is the Minister of Labour (Mr. CrotheTs) aware that a strike of moulders in Brantford has teen on for some days? And has he taken any action in the matter?


Mr. CROTHERS:: I heard some days ago that the moulders in Brantford were on strike. The difference between the moulders and the employers arose as to the length of the working day, the question being as to an eight-hour or a ten-hour day. I am not aware whether the matter has been adjusted yet or not.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Does the hon. minister know that one of his officials had gone to Brantford, or had been spoken to by men in Brantford, and that these men were told by him that the Department of Labour had nothing to do with that kind of matter?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I have not heard anything of the sort. No official of my department, so far as I am aware, went to Brantford.



LABOUR STRIKE IN WESTERN COAL MINES.

Frank Oliver: I think the Minister of
Labour said yesterday that he would prob-

ably have some -definite information today in regard to the labour strike in the Alberta oo-al mines.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I have received a
message from that district., which contains no definite information, but merely states that the prospects -for adjustment are brighter.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rainviille in the Chair.
Steam service between St. John and ports in Cumberland Basin, $3,000.
['I do not know that 1 should be in order in answering my hon. friend. If I am not entitled to proceed with my Estimates there is nothing before the committee. If it is not in order for me to answer questions, I do not see how it is in order for hon. gentlemen to ask me questions. However, I have no objection to stating that the Hon. Mr. Blondin is still on service, and the fact of my being here as Acting Postmaster General indicates that the newspaper report that he had returned to resume his duties as Postmaster General is incorrect.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Doherty, the House adjourned at 10.15 p.m.\nFriday, June 15, 1917.']
Mr. MACDONALD:: 
Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: $5,000 is the
right amount.


Mr. BOULAY:: An item was voted last night for the service between Quebec and Gaspe basin. Will tthe minister give us the ports of call in the counties of Rimouski and Matane, where the company is 'bound to make calls, acording to the terms of the contract with the Dominion Government.


George Eulas Foster: The ports of call are Matane, Cape Chatte, Ste. Anne des Monts, Mont Louis, Grande Vallee, Chlory-domes, Fox River, Griffin Cove, L'Anse a Louise, Grande Greve, Dougl-astown, Gaspe Basin, and, at the contractor's option, to extend the route as far -as Paspebiac, calling both way at Malbay, Perce, Cape Cove, Grand River, Newport, and Port Daniel; and at the following places once each round trip, either on the up or down voyage, viz., Ste. Fdlicite, Mechins, Martin River, Claude River, St. Antoine, Magdalen, Petite Valine, points Frigate, pointe Secher, Grand Etang, Anse a Valeau, Pte. Jaune, Little Fox River, Cape Rosier, as well as suchi other port or ports, place or places, en route, as the minister may from time to time direct. I think these are the same as last year.


Herménégilde Boulay: I understand, they do not stop at Matane or Ste. Felicite, and very seldom at Mechins. They should stop at Matane and Ste. Felicite, because there is no railroad at those points. I do not think the company is fulfilling the conditions on
-which they received their subsidy, and I ask that the minister, before renewing the subsidy another year, should compel them to fulfil their obligation. I should like to know, also, if the Government has control ove-r the freight rates on those steamers, because we had complaints from the people along the coast that they Charge very high *rates, which complaints, I think, are well founded. The subsidy is granted to those companies to enable them to carry freight .at a moderate rate, to points where there is no railroad service. If the Government has control of the rates, they can redress the grievance.


George Eulas Foster: Every steamship company which is subsidized is under contract to perform certain services; otherwise they are subject to a reduction- of the amount paid them. Generally; we hear from places which are not touched at and we take the matter up. If there be any reason -why steamers have not called at these places the steamship company is given an opportunity to explain. The weather might not permit of their calling, or there might be some other Teason. The freight rates are controlled. The -company must file its schedule of rates, and is obliged to follow that schedule, and rates cannot be increased without the permission of the department. The subsidy is given for the encouragement of the service, and is not simply to take the place of freight rates, which have to be paid in any event. During the last two years costs and charges have gone up, -as my hon. friend knows, so that, in most of these cases, demands have been made for a certain -rise in the rates of freight. The demand was taken up by the officers of the department, and reported upon; the department fixes what it considers to be a fair rate, and refuses to sanction -any rate that is considered unfair. In some cases a partial increase is granted.


Mr. MARCIL:: Between Gaspe bay and Paspebiac the service is optional with the company?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


Charles Marcil: Could not the minister make it more binding on the company in this respect in view of the very poor service on that coast? I have received a petition from Anse -aux Gascons, thirty miles east of Paspebiac, asking that the boat call there. I forwarded the petition on to the proprietor of the boat in Montreal, -but have had no answer yet. If an arrangement could be made by the department to give better

service on that part of the coast it would he greatly appreciated.


George Eulas Foster: That port is beyond Gaspe?


Charles Marcil: Between Gaspe and Paspe-biac.


George Eulas Foster: We have another service between Campfeellton and Dalhousie and we pay them for the service to Gaspe. We do not wish to pay a double subsidy on the portion of the coast between Gaspe and Paspebiac, -but if the company wishes to go beyond Gaspe to Paspebiac we do not put any bar in their way, so long as they perform the service between Quebec and Gaspe for which we pay them.


Charles Marcil: The minister understands why they should go to Paspebiac. They may have through freight from Montreal and Paspebiac, and that being the chief station of the largest firm in the district, anything the minister could do in improving the service would be of benefit.


Mr. COPP:: Referring to the services between St. John and ports on the Cumberland basin, what boat is engaged in the service and what trips does she make?


George Eulas Foster: It is the same steamer that has been on for some years, the Harbinger, run by the Harbinger Steamship Company. The ports of call are St. John, Albert, Riverside, Harvey, Jog-gins Mines, Minudie, Riviere Hebert, and a call is required at Amherst Point wharf when there is freight offering for that port.


George William Kyte: How frequent are the trips?


George Eulas Foster: The contract is for a trip once a week.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Last evening an item was passed providing for the service on the Petitcodiac river. I saw an item to the effect that this 'boat would not be in service this year.


George Eulas Foster: I think I was told in the department the other day that there was a doubt as to whether this boat would go on or not. I will inquire.
Steam service between Sydney and Bay St. Lawrence, calling at way ports, $6,000.


Mr. McKENZIE:: This is a very important service. While we may criticise a good many of these services, this is one that I wish to bring in the most serious way to the notice of the minister. He has received petitions, I know, from that part of the country asking for a better service. I am
. 
not complaining of the present service, but it is impossible for one boat to satisfactorily perform that service.
The route covers a distance of nearly 120 miles from Sydney along the coast of Cape Breton and Victoria counties, extending as far back as a place called Meat Cove at the extreme northern part of the island of Cape Breton. The ports along this part of the coast are good fishing places-Bay St. Lawrence, Meat Cove, White Point Dingwall, Neil's Harbour, North Ingonish, South Ingonish, Breton, Cove, Barrachois Plaster, North Shore, English Town, Jersey Cove, Murray, South Gut, North Sydney and Sydney. As was brought out in the discussion the other day with regard to the fishing business, it is necessary that fishermen should be enabled to get their products to the markets. One boat cannot do justice to the business done at the places which I have mentioned. The present boat was specially built for this route, and the company would probably secure another boat if they received some encouragement in .the way of subsidy. I voice the sentiments of the people along the northern part of Nova Scotia when I ask that they be given better accommodation than they are now receiving. Representations along these lines have been made to the minister by friends of his own party. I mention these facts not in any spirit of carping criticism, but in the hope that the minister will give the matter consideration, in view of the fact that it is absolutely necessary that this part of the province should have better accommodation.


George Eulas Foster: My hon. friend knows the difficulty of getting either more money or more ships. However, there is always hope for the future.
Steam service from Sydney, N.S. around the east coast of Cape Breton to Hastings and return to Sydney via the Bras d'Or Lakes, $5,500.


Mr. CARROLL:: Will the minister tell the committee what amount of traffic was carried in this service last year, the number of trips made and the number of passengers carried?


George Eulas Foster: Thirty-four
round trips were made, 1,045 tons of freight were carried, and 35 passengers.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: At what points is the vessel supposed to touch?


George Eulas Foster: Sydney, North
Sydney, Plort M.orien, Main-a-dieu, Louis-burg, Gabarus, L.Ardoise, Petit de Grat,

Arichat,'West Arichat, Mulgrave, Hawkes-bury. On the return: Grandique, Poula-mond, St. Peters, Johnston's Harbour, Irish Cove, Big Pond, North Side East Bay, South Side East Bay, 'Castle Bay, Grand Narrows and North Sydney.


George William Kyte: I wish to call the attention of the minister to a matter concerning which representations have been made to his department from time to time, that of the necessity for a steamship service at the port of Fourchu on the south coast line of Cape Breton. Fourchu is one of the most important and prosperous fishing communities on that coast, but it has no communication with any of the ports of Nova Scotia. It has no railway accommodation, the nearest railway being about 25 miles distant. Up to a few years ago a sailing vessel carried to Fourchu purchases made by the merchants at various ports in Nova Scotia and carried away the products of the fisheries, but this service has not been in operation during the last three or four years. It is desirable that the steamship company enjoying the subsidy which is under consideration should be requested to call at the port of Fourchu.


George Eulas Foster: What steamship is that?


George William Kyte: The Weymouth. Some years ago a considerable sum of money was spent by the Department of Public Works for the purpose of dredging out a bar across the mouth of the harbour at Fourchu. Owing to the removal of that bar there is now a considerable depth of water in the channel. Some years ago the Government made provision for the construction of a public wharf at that port. The public conveniences, therefore, required at such a port as Fourchu are fairly well provided, with the exception of the most important of all, >a steamship service. If the depth of water should be found inadequate to enable the steamers to approach the Government wharf, a small expenditure for dredging would provide the necessary depth of water. I am not exaggerating the importance of Fourchu when I say that it is one of the most important fishing communities in the island of Cape Breton and that the individual catch is larger than that of any other fishermen in the island of Cape Breton.


George Eulas Foster: The hon. gentlemen thinks that the service might be performed by the Weymouth?


George William Kyte: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: I will look into it.
Expenses in connection with the supervision of subsidised steamship services, $3,000.
Mr. MARCH.: The member for Rouville and the minister made certain statements yesterday regarding the Gaspe-Campbellton service which were warranted by the facts, but in justice to the Quebec and Oriental Railway Company, operating between Mata-pedia and New Carlisle, I think that I should set forth certain facts showing that, under the circumstances, they are doing the best that can be done to operate that railway.
If that, were not so, the people of that part of the country would lbe very much worse off than they really are, because, besides the steamer service, which is not altogether what it should be, the people have nothing but the railway. I want the minister to become familiar with the position the railway occupies. These are the facts to which I wish to direct his attention:	For the
six months ending December 31, 1916, the Quebec Oriental railway spent on special repairs and renewals of way and structures $18,064.41, or roughly $3,000 per month. They also spent $5,000 additional on ordinary maintenance more than for the corresponding period in 1915, making a total additional expenditure on this account of over $23,000. That the line is being considerably improved is amply demonstrated by the fact that they are handling without delay an increased volume of traffic including many heavy 60 ton cars of coal. They are doing a better business at present than at any time in the history of the line, and if it had not been for the inflated prices of material and the scarcity and cost of certain classes of labour, caused by the war, they would be making considerable profit, which would have enabled them for the current year to carry out repairs on a more extensive scale than they are doing. There is one fact that should be mentioned, namely, in the operation of a daily service on the line during the winter under very adverse conditions along a coast line exposed to storms. They have managed to operate the 200 miles of railway from Mata-pedia to Gaspe during the whole winter without a single day's interruption, carrying the mails and proving a great advantage to the people, despite the .severe weather. This -has cost a good deal of money, and full credit should be given to the company for what they did. The general .manager of the railway who has given me these facts says that other lines similarly isitu-

ated had to resort to a tri-weekly or biweekly service in the winter. It is only fair to the company that I should make these facts known. The minister was a member of the Government when this railway was chartered, and it was proposed to be a branch of the Intercolonial. It fell into the hands of a private company and has had a very precarious existence since. The people hope that, after the war, *this railway will be merged into the Intercolonial and will become one of the best features of that system, giving access to a splendid territory for fisheries and lumber. The line is fairly well operated from Mata-pedia to Paspe'biac, and is in splendid condition from Paspebiao to Gaspe.


George Eulas Foster: I am glad to
know the company are improving it.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: 
George Eulas Foster: I will certainly look into the matter. Of course, with the multiplicity of work, it is impossible for the minister to have .knowledge of all the details. What I said last night namely, that the matter had not been brought to my attention was true.
Trade commissioners and commercial agents, including expenses in connection with negotiation of treaties or in extension of commercial relations; miscellaneous advertising and printing, or other expenditure connected with the extension of Canadian trade, $160,000.


Mr. GRAHAM:: The minister might give us some inkling of what was accomplished at the various international trade conferences of the Allies.


George Eulas Foster: This vote is for the trade commissioners. Of course, they have nothing to do with international negotiations.


George Perry Graham: I know that, but I
thought I might ask on this item for a statement from the minister regarding the trade conference of the Allies, one at least of which he attended.


George Eulas Foster: I intend on one item of the Estimates to make a general statement with reference to the work of the department, and I think it would toe better to embody the information that my hon. friend asks .for in that statement. It will cover a good many points, for there are many matters that I think should be placed before the House. For instance, there is the Dominions Royal Commission, which has finished its work and published its final report, copies of which, together with the evidence, I intend to have printed for the use of members. The report is a voluminous one, but to those members of the House who take an interest in Dominion-wide trade, the report and the statistical volumes which accompany it are documents of very great importance. In my general statement I shall also refer .to the work of the Advisory Council on Industrial and Scientific Research, and to the work of our trade commissioners in the different countries. I shall also make a short statement in reference to the Economic Conference, which is what I think my hon. friend refers to. I will give notice beforehand of the item on which I shall make this general statement.


Wilfrid Laurier: Have any new trade agencies been opened since last year?


George Eulas Foster: I do not know whether the two Russian -agencies were opened last year or not, but at least preparations were then being made tor them. One has now been opened at Petrograd, in the Bast, and another at Omsk, in the West. Mr. Just, our -agent at Petro-grad, is one of our best trade commissioners. Mr. Wilgress has been appointed to Omsk. He is a graduate of McGill University, where he had a distinguished career, and was highly recommended on economics and other subjects. Mr. Wilgress has passed through the course of training which all our new trade commissioners undergo in our offices in Canada for a year or a year and a half.


Wilfrid Laurier: Where in
Omsk?


George Eulas Foster: In Siberia; it is the central point in Western Russia. We have also opened a branch at Milan, in Italy, and recently sent there one of our sub-commissioners, a graduate of Toronto University, who had undergone -a course of training in this country for over a year and a half. Not much, perhaps, can be done during the period of the war either in Russia or Italy, but it is very important that these men should be at their seat of future work before peace comes, so that they may make themselves thoroughly acquainted with local conditions. I have made a point lately of insisting on these trade commissioners understanding the language of the country where they are going to work; that applies to our commissioners in Russia and Italy. The young man who has gone to Milan studied Italian while he was here, and had a fair colloquial knowledge of the language before he left, and probably will be able to perfect himself in the language before peace comes. There is also a subcommissioner being trained in our offices who is destined,"if everything goes well, to take up this work in Japan; he is studying Japanese. His father was living in Japan at the time of his birth; the young man has passed a few years of his childhood there, and has something of the Japanese atmosphere. It is a great advantage for a man to be able to enter into conversation with business men in the language of their country. It makes communication easier, and enables the commissioner to get at their habits of thought better than if everything had to be done through an interpreter.


George Perry Graham: I think it is a good idea to have these commissioners trained in the language of the country to which they are
sent, although it might be considered an intrusion on bi-lingualism. I get the bulletins regularly, and read them very carefully. They contain a lot of useful information for the public, particularly for the manufacturers and business 4 p.m. men interested. I have made a point during the past few years of having these bulletins reproduced in the newspapers, in order that they may reach as many people as possible. ,1 have met several of these trade commissioners, and I believe they are doing *a good work. Of course, their viewpoint will have to change, and their methods .also, on account of the war. I suppose that the war will disarrange a lot of business, -and it will rearrange a lot of business also, some to our advantage and some to our disadvantage. It ought to be impressed upon our manufacturers that it will be necessary for them to be ready to giapple with conditions that may exist -after the war. A great many of our industries, small -as well -as large, have been devoting almost their entire attention to the manufacture of munitions, at the request of the Munitions Board, Consequently, they have allowed their staple trade to slip away from *them-and, of course, the demand for their -staples has decreased. But when the war is over-and we hope it will be over very soon-these manufacturers ought to be in a position, not only to look after the .staple trade they had before, but also to secure trade that they have never had up to this time. The trade commissioners, I -assume, -are and will be very useful in this connection in keeping the department informed as to the new conditions and the requirements of markets which our manufacturers can reach. It is absolutely necessary not only that this information should be given to the department, but that it should be made known to the industrial centres and captains of industry -all over the Dominion. I presume that this is done. If I have a word of advice to the minister, it would be to increase efficiency in this respect and to see to it that all such information is placed before the manufacturers. The majority of the trade commissioners with whom I have discussed affairs, are hopeful of a -constantly increasing trade-of course, war has unhinged business for the present. But they have found this difficulty, that our manufacturers have not been ready to adapt their output to the requirements of the market. In Australia, let us suppose, the -people are in the habit of -purchasing certain patterns of goods in certain lines,

these goods being made elsewhere than in Canada. Some years ago, at any rate, our trade commissioners found it difficult to induce the Canadian manufacturers to change the style of their (output to -meet tlhe demand of the market in such a case. If our industries are to meet the new situation and to secure trade that they have not yet had our producers must accommodate themselves even to the whims of their customers. I have found that in some countries-and I suppose the minister is aware of this condition-goods of Canadian m<giufacture are used but those who use them are not aware where they are produced. For one order, I suppose it does not make much difference so long as the manufacturer sells the goods; but for future trade and the development of our industries I think the trade commissioners do good work by keeping as nearly as possible a straight line between the Canadian manufacturer and the foreign consumer. I found, in travelling in Europe, that Canadian goods were becoming better known as such than in former years, largely, I suppose, through the work of the trade commissioners. People there were beginning to learn that these goods were from Canada and were not the product of the distributors from whom they were bought. I approve of this vote for the trade commissioners and would not object to putting on more steam in this service, if it were shown to be desirable. We do not know what is ahead of us; we can conjecture, but we do not know. It may seem discouraging at this time to put on more steam; but we do not know how soon the circumstances may change, and we ought to be ready to take advantage of conditions, whatever they may be, so as to regain any trade we may have lost, to retain what we have, and to secure the trade that will develop under the new conditions. The remarks I wish to make on the other points I reserve until the minister (Sir George Foster) has made his statement.


George Eulas Foster: The remarks of the hon. member (Mr. Graham) are very pertinent to the subject in hand and to the circumstances of the time. In the present dearth of ships and all the confusion resulting from a state of war, it may seem of little use to have trade commissioners in -some of the countries in which our commissioners now carry on their work. But I find that there is a very fruitful field to which I am directing their attention and to which they are giving a large part of their time. In other countries, as in our own, great changes are taking place. It is

gratifying to know that our manufacturers, large and small, are more and more getting the idea that more things can be made in Canada, and made profitably, and marketed outside of the country as well as within our own borders. There are numerous new industries springing up in Canada to make things which we have not made before. The pressure and discipline of war work have given an impetus to the making of things along new lines. The organization of plant, the extreme nicety of the work that is to be done, has been a drilling and disciplining of our mechanics and our employers as well, and has taught them that they need not despair of being able to produce alongside the manufacturers of any other country. When the workman has a piece of work which he has to get down to the thousandth part of an inch, or perhaps the two-thousandth part of an inch, the completing of that, work is an invaluable training.
There are two things that it is of great importance for the manufacturers and artisans of the country to realize: One is that time is always of the essence of the contract, that when a contract is made it should be filled on time; and the other is the necessity of accuracy of make. Many people think: Oh, if this will do the job, no matr ter whether it is accurately fashioned or not, it will serve. It is an invaluable training and an invaluable aid to our workmen to have instilled into their minds every day the idea of accuracy and of finish, of making an article absolutely according to specification. In this respect changes are taking place in our own country and in other countries, and an important part of the work of our trade commissioners to-day is to watch and follow up these changes and to bring information of them to our own people, with warnings and advice as to changes and means of taking advantage of them. I would not have my hern, friend forget that in addition to our trade commissioners appointed from Canada we also have, under a system recently adopted, the benefit of the services of the Intelligence Department and the Commercial Department of the British embassies in all countries where it is of advantage to us to secure information of this kind. It has been peculiarly satisfactory to see the hearty and enthusiastic way in which these branches of the British Embassies in different parts of the world have taken up this work with regard to Canada. They have given the most valuable information, and have given it with a freedom and a fullness that are all that could be desired. Thus

we must always add a plus to our Canadian trade commissioners when we think of the extension of foreign trade-we must add to our own service the Intelligence Department and the Commercial Department of each British Embassy.
Trade Commissioners, bounties on lead and crude petroleum, to cover expenses in administration of the Act, $5,000.


George Eulas Foster: This is the usual vote. Under the provisions of the Lead Bounties Act no bounties are now being paid on this product as the price of lead is far above the figure at which bounties are to be paid. There is, however, some expense of administration, I think about $500. The other part of the vote is for the supervision of the petroleum bounties, which work still goes on and is confined chiefly to Ontario, under the provisions of the Act.


Frank Oliver: The minister will, perhaps, recall representations that were made to him in regard to a bounty on oil produced in Alberta. In the interview that I had with the minister, he explained why a bounty is paid on oil produced in Ontario, but not on oil produced in Alberta. It would be desirable for the minister to explain to the committee the reasons for that distinction, because I feel that, however sound the explanation may be as justifying a method of administration, the policy under which different courses are followed in relation to the two provinces is not susceptible of the same measure of justification. I shall compare the conditions surrounding the production of oil in Ontario and in Alberta. I do not desire to discuss the question of oil bounties on its merits; I am discussing merely the right of the production of one part of the country to share in the same considerations as the production of another part of the country. The idea of the bounty was, I assume, to put the producer of oil in Canada on an equality in supplying the home market with his competitor in the United States, who may be supposed to have some advantages in the matter of cheap production. The production of oil in Alberta, on behalf of which the claim for bounty is made, occurs under circumstances and conditions stupendously more expensive than in Ontario, and if there is any warrant or justification for the payment of a bounty upon oil produced in Ontario, that justification is tremendously stronger in the case of oil produced in Alberta. I understand that in Ontario oil is produced from wells of a depth of less than a thousand feet. In Alberta the wells are three thousand feet deep and
cost about three times as much to bore. In addition to that, owing to the broken nature of the formation in which the oil is found, at the foot of the Rocky mountains, there is much greater uncertainty as to striking oil in any particular location, and the rock through which the well must be drilled is of a very difficult character. In the locality southwest of Calgary, where oil is produced, there is no such certainty of striking oil in any given spot as I understand there is in the oil fields in Ontario.
There is, on the contrary, the very greatest uncertainty, so that the production of oil in this locality involvee vastly greater expenditure and greater risk of no return, and, therefore, I maintain that, where oil is struck, it is entitled to share on an equality with the oil produced in Ontario, and that, if the law as it stands- does not provide for that equality of treatment, it is for Parliament to amend the law so as to give equality of treatment to the production in the two different parts of the country. All the more so because in Alberta the production is in an experimental stage, whereas in Ontario it has been demonstrated for a period of thirty or forty years. I do not wish to make any special plea, or any plea at all, for the Alberta production except for equality of treatment under equal conditions. The fact that the conditions aTe so greatly to the disadvantage of Alberta substantially strengthens their claim on the ground of justice and desirability of further promoting the exploitation of the possibilities of oil production in that country. It is, as no doubt the minister will be good enough to explain, a mere matter of difference in the quality of the oil produced. It is true the quality of the oil produced in Alberta is higher than that produced in Ontario, but the fact that the law excludes from bounty that quality which is produced in Alberta is merely an incident, and was not, I submit, any part of the original intent of the law. It simply occurs by reason of the phrasing of the provision, and not by reason of any intent to cut out the enterprise of any section of the country from sharing in the same consideration as that which the produtcion of Ontario shares.


George Eulas Foster: The Act under
which bounties are paid on crude petroleum was passed in 1910, under the regime of my hon. friends	who now sit
opposite, and I suppose it really was an adjustment as between duties and bounties, that when	the	duty	on
imported oil was lowered, the bounty was

-given as a recompense to the producer of oil in Canada. I do not think the bounty was put on to stimulate the search for oil, and to develop the industry in Ontario, but rather to offset this reduced protection. If the intention is to carry out a policy designed to stimulate the production of oil, there is no reason why the bounty should be limited to any locality. If, however, the legislation was designed to recompense the producer in Canada for the loss of a protection in the matter of duty on import, and, if at the time the Act was passed, all of our production of oil was in a certain section, there is a basis upon which the present Act rests, which does not necessarily call for equality, as between different sections of Canada. Representations have been made to the departmeent on several occasions upon the subject, and at my last interview with some gentlemen connected with the development in Alberta, I asked them to send me as complete and accurate returns as possible of the wells which were being developed, and of those which were producing, and, generally, information which would enable us to deal with the whole subject. I think it is perfectly fair that, in the case of another development in another part of the Dominion, a difference in specific gravity should not be the determining factor in the payment of a bounty. 'Some other and better principle should be adopted.


Mr. DOUGLAS:: Will the minister give
me the information as to bounties paid on zinc at the present time?


George Eulas Foster: That is by a
special Act passed last year. I am not administering that provision, and have not the information with me, but I shall be' pleased to obtain the information.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Do I understand the zinc bounties are now in force?


George Eulas Foster: There was an
arrangement which was made to stimulate the production of zinc, I think, in British Columbia, and that is a special arrangement. I think there was an enactment passed last year or the year before which carries that out. From my general knowledge, all I can say is that that operation has -been very successful, and that the foundation of an industry has been laid, which is developing, and which promises to be permanent, and the price at which the spelter is now provided, under that arrangement, is very much lower than the price for which it could be obtained from other sources.


James McCrie Douglas: I have information in connection with the zinc industry which would lead me to believe that, if the bounty on zinc were continued after the war, a very large plant might be established for concentrating, under the retort process, in the province of Alberta, at the gas fields which are being developed in that province at the present time. The statement has been made that the price of spelter is so high that a bounty is not required to stimulate the industry, but that, after the w-ar, with the large number of smelters established in the United States to take advantage of the demand for zinc at the present time, the competition will be so keen that, unless some stimulus is given to the zinc industry in Canada, the Canadian industry may suffer very materially, and that- if a guarantee could be given that the industry would receive some protection for a number of years after the war, a large retort smelter might be established in the province of Alberta, but that, unless such guarantee be given, the large expenditure which would be necessary .would cause promoters to be very chary about going into it. The writer of this letter informs me that, at the present moment, he has a large operating company in the United States, ready at any time to build a plant, provided the Dominion Government will give some assurance that, after 1918, which I believe is the time at which the zinc bounty ceases, under the enactment which the hon. minister refers to the guarantee will be continued for two or three years, it would be possible to have an industry of this kind established. The claim is made that, on account of the excessive rate of freight, it is absolutely essential that a very cheap fuel should be used in the smelting operation, and that gas appears to be the only fuel employed that would make it a profitable industry. Without a guarantee from the Government that a bounty would be enjoyed for a number of years -after the war, the advisability of establishing a large industry of this kind would be very doubtful.


George Eulas Foster: I imagine that my hon. friend has reference to the bounty upon lead ores. Zinc and lead are intimately connected in many of the British Columbia .mines, because zinc is recoverable from the lead ores. There is no general bounty on zinc of itself. The Act under which the bounty is paid upon lead ores will come to an end on June 30, 1918. What I was speaking about was the -special arrangement made for the refining of zinc and the manufacture of spelter at the Can-

adian Pacific works at Trail. The bounty was given there for a special purpose- largely for a war purpose-the idea being that it was necessary to make a special arrangement in order to get practical results and to get them speedily. Although a certain bounty was given, the consideration wras a minimum price for the product to the manufacture of which the bounty was applied. That product has been utilized in the munition work of Canada. The matter does not come under my department;
I am merely giving my impression with regard to it.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Are the zinc bounties not administered by my hon. friend's department?


George Eulas Foster: No; I think they are under the Militia Department. The lead bounties are under my department.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Does the legislation not provide for a bounty on zinc?


George Eulas Foster: No. Where the two are combined, I suppose the bounty is upon lead-bearing ores.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I assume that any
one producing merchantable zinc from lead bearing ores would be entitled to receive the bounty. The answer the hon. minister has given to the member for Strathcona would, I assume, apply also to an inquiry which I received the other day from a gentleman in Toronto who is interested in zinc bounties in Nova Scotia. I understand that special arrangements have been made by the Department of Militia with a concern in British Columbia for production at their smelter, and that unless some new legislation is introduced or the bounty extended, the aid now given to the production from lead-bearing ores will expires next year.


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What smelters in Canada handle lead-bearing ores?


George Eulas Foster: I think they are all in British Columbia.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Has the minister considered the desirability and importance of doing anything in the way of extending trade with South America? When the manufacturing nations which are now embroiled in the war shall have set their bouses in order, they will proceed to deal with their own trade arrangements on the same basis as before the war. On this continent no effort has been made-not even by United States until very recently-for
reaching the tremendous trade of South America. We have not attempted to extend our steam communication on the Atlantic coast south of British Guiana. The great industrial countries of Brazil and the Argentine Republic have maintained their trade conditions, largely on account of their exports to Great Britain and other nations across the Atlantic. After their entry into the war, United States put forth special efforts to capture South American trade. As we are capable of sending our products south from Vancouver on one side of the Dominion, and from the Maritime Provinces on the other, special efforts ought now to be exerted with a view to extending our trade with South America, and, if possible, creating conditions under which after the war we shall have the advantage of the people on the other side of the ocean. However we may be associated in sympathy and sentiment with them, I am quite sure that the Allied nations will, after the war, strain every nerve, without the slightest regard to Canada, with a view to extending their trade. There is no reason why we should not anticipate that. The peaceful war of trade will go on, and if the fates decree that the older continent shall suffer the penalty of being the actual theatre of war, those nations which are more fortunate in that respect should take advantage of existing conditions. I do not criticise the minister for maintaining trade agencies on the other side of the ocean, although they must of necessity mark time until the war is over. But I think the people would support any effort made by the minister-and would consider any money devoted to that end as being well invested- to extend our trade with South America and the West Indies.


George Eulas Foster: One great difficulty I have always found with regard to trade with South America is the lack of direct communication. You are always at a disadvantage where your trade has to filter through a foreign port, and it tends to get into the hands of a commission business in the foreign port through which the trade filters. Before the war I had taken up especially the possibility of steamship communication between South America and Canada, and had carried on negotiations to a certain extent. Had the war not broken out, I believe they would have been successful, but on the outbreak of war negotiations ceased, and during war time it has been absolutely impossible to have anything like a steamship service between Can-

ada and South America. The war completely disorganized the finances of South American countries for a long time; in fact they have not yet recovered. The system of carrying on trade with South American countries involves a good deal of difficulty and long credits. The United States or any other country that undertakes to do a large export business with South America must have banking arrangements; they are as important as steamship communication. Last night I spoke of the extension of our Canadian banks to the West Indies, and the effect of that on our trade has been very marked. The German policy was to push their banks ahead of their trade, and their banks were their commercial travellers, so to speak. We need in Canada some adaptation of banking facilities which will project that auxiliary to Canadian export trade which is needed everywhere, especially in South America. The necessity for banking facilities of that description is being brought home strongly to the British people to-day, and the result of their cogitations in the matter has been the formation of a very large and influential corporation, which is not assisted financially by Government, but with which the Government is sympathetic. This corporation is given an opportunity of acting in conjunction with the Government in the different countries in which it may establish itself, and to that extent is given the sympathy and the active backing of the Government. It is called a trade corporation, but according to the articles of incorporation, it might just as well be called a banking corporation, because banking is the foundation- of the trade and is intermixed with it as a factor or agent. I think a similar organization should be formed in Canada, so that along with the efforts of middlemen, producers and carriers, there would be this most important agent of banking and financial assistance. This matter is now being canvassed by business men throughout the country, and I hope that before the reorganization period we shall make some progress. South America has not been neglected. One of the best and most experienced trade commissioners that we had, Mr. Poussette, was our trade commissioner at Buenos Aires. The year before the war started he made a tour of all the different states of South America, and made a very thorough examination into trade conditions and possibilities. His -reports which are excellent, have been distributed everywhere and they are being studied by our Canadian people. The war intervened, and the work 
was not brought to the point to which it otherwise would h-ave attained. After Mr. Poussette had finished that tour and published his report, I had him brought to Canada through which he made a tour, and he met the producers and manufacturers face to face and canvassed with them. A year and a half ago Mr. Poussette felt the call of the war and left his post, and he is now engaged in military work in England or at the front. In his place we have a Mr. Webb, a very excellent man who understands the language of the Argentine Republic. Our men occasionally go to South America, and whenever they go they speak very highly about the commissioner there, of [DOT]'the assistance he gives to them and of the reputation he seems to have with the commercial people there. This field is therefore not by any means neglected, and when the war is over I hope we shall be able to get steamship service to South America, and with an organization of the kind I have described, and the co-ordination of trade, here is a great field in South America* for certain branches of Canadian products. The people there do not manufacture largely; the countries are rich in possibilities; the better class of the people not only are rich, but indulge their propensities, and are good, generous, heavy traders.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I am glad the minister agrees with me as to the wisdom and advantage of looking to South America for trade development, and I quite appreciate the difficulties to be encountered. One of the difficulties would be removed if it were possible, by the Government taking certain exceptional powers with our Canadian banks or in some other way, to provide for an extension of banking facilities in South America. -Our brethren in Great Britain, while the war is on, appreciate the necessity of maintaining their trade connection, and by the corporation which has been formed and of which the minister has spoken, they are preparing for the maintenance of the trade which has always existed between the Atlantic states of South America and Great Britain. We ought not to be behind, and I would urge upon the Government the duty of taking up this financial problem and endeavouring to do what is being done in Great Britain.
With regard to the question, of shipping, I am 6orry the minister is talking about waiting until after the war. I have grown- weary of urging on the Government the duty of providing for a Canadian Mercantile marine. If we wait until after the war, we shall

have the greatest difficulty in getting ship6 for our needs, because the ships of Great Britain, France and our other Allies will be used in maintaining their own trade. Here is this great continent to- the south of ue with marvellous possibilities. The possibilities of trade are quite as great on the western coast as on, the east. The minister has outlined the difficulties; those are the' only difficulties, and I would sincerely urge upon the Government the bounden necessity and duty of providing for the conditions I have described. Unless we provide a market on this continent for our natural resources and manufactured products I believe that the expenditure of money for trade expansion in these older countries will not produce any considerable results. The whole world requires our grain and our farm products, and will continue to require them for a great number of years. It will not be necessary to have commissioners to look .after that trade; the trade will be there, and it will simply be a question of getting the products to the market. The competition that will arise as soon as the war is over will prevent to a very great degree any expansion of our trade with these older countries. But this great continent to the south of us is the Mecca to which the eyes of the business men of this country should turn. We should 'bend every possible energy in that direction, by the immediate construction of ships, by the creation of banking facilities, and of trade routes both on the Atlantic and the Pacific, because the people of the United States are our natural buyers, and have a great many commodities to exchange for ours.
Salaries and contingencies under the Inspection and Sale Act, $3,000.


Frank Oliver: A few days ago I brought to the attention of the minister a communication which I received from a point in my constituency, in which the secretary of the local branch of the United Farmers of Alberta complained that they were unable to place any orders for binder twine either with the Grain Growers' Grain Company or the T. Eaton Company. The correspondence they had received was to the effect that binder twine was scarce because it had not been possible to secure transportation of the raw material from the seaboard to the point of manufacture. The minister was good enough to send me a memorandum on the subject which, I am sorry to say, bore out the statement made by my correspondent. It would be a very serious
condition if there was to be a shortage of binder twine, and I should be glad if the minister would tell us what the situation is.


George Eulas Foster: The general
situation has, I think, improved. It has been very difficult, if not impossible, to import the raw material for the binder twine. Hitherto we have received a good deal of binder twine from the United States, but there has lately been some difficulty in having orders placed and filled. I think most of the manufacturers of binder twine in Canada are filling orders. The International Harvester Company, of Hamilton, in a communication in the month of May which I sent to my hon. friend, do not anticipate any shortage of binder twine; I think they provide more than 50 per cent of the output in Canada. Since that time we have had no complaints. We presume that the orders are being filled. A pretty large order for binder twine was placed in the United States by British people, but the twine was not exported from, lack of transport. We allowed this to be brought into this country, although it did not comply with the conditions of the
5 p.m. Act, as regards tagging and we guarded against its being sold under our own Marking Act by giving it a special tag. By Order in Council 300 or 400 tons of this twine was allowed to come in to help make up the shortage.


Frank Oliver: Has it been distributed?


George Eulas Foster: Yes. Since the middle of May we have had no further representations in the matter. Of course, my department simply lends its good offices towards facilitating the supply.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The only thing wrong with the twine was its short length?


George Eulas Foster: Yes.


Frank Oliver: My correspondent stated that the raw material for binder twine was being held up at ocean ports.


George Eulas Foster: The trouble arose at Seattle. Supplies came in there, but a railway embargo consequent upon the congestion of freight and the lack of cars prevented its quick transport to the factory. I have made inquiries to find where the trouble was but have not yet received definite information. My impression is that the embargo was put on in the United States rather than on our side, and also that the embargo militated against the reception of that material in the binder twine factories
23.34

in the United States, and the lack of supply of raw material caused a lack of output.


Frank Oliver: Is there a probability of that embargo being lifted?


George Eulas Foster: I think it has been lifted. These embargoes are matters which each railway manages for itself, and, of course, we have no jurisdiction over them. Such embargoes are of limited length and are designed to facilitate the movement of some special goods, or to prevent congestion. With our own railways we communicate with them and ask them to facilitate the transport in urgent cases, and this they always try to do.


Frank Oliver: Seattle is a common point for our railways, -as it is for the railways of the United States. I hope the minister will take measures to find out if the material is still there-


George Eulas Foster: My impression is that the embargo has been lifted.


Frank Oliver: -and if it is still there I think some suggestion should be made to the railways to 'bring it forward. For, while we may not have an over-abundant crop, yet it is early in the season, and we may have a crop so large as to call for a large quantity of binder twine, and in that case it would be a calamity if the raw material were not brought forward so that it could be worked up.
Salaries and contingencies, under the Cullers Act, including an amount of $1,800 for superannuated cullers, $8,500.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What does that
mean?


George Eulas Foster: It is the remnant of an old service in Quebec, which is constantly diminishing and, in the course of a few years, will pass away. A large part of the amount is for the superannuation of the officers.
To provide for the construction, acquisition, leasing or expropriation of terminal elevators, (revote), $8X0,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: None of this was used
last year?


George Eulas Foster: It would not be quite right to say that none of it was used, but very little comparatively. The chief item under this vote was to provide for an elevator to be erected at Hudson Bay. It was not gone on with last year, and is not being gone on with this year, further than to complete the foundation.
.Mr. NESBITT:	Better do without the
foundation; just let the thing stop.


George Eulas Foster: The foundation
of the elevator is part of the dock which is being built. It is, of course, economical and wise to prepare this foundation while the work of construction is going on.


Frank Oliver: What is the capacity of the proposed elevator?


George Eulas Foster: About 1,300,000
or 1,400,000 bushels, divided between warehouse and storage, the large part storage. The other expenditures were for the completion of other elevators in such matters as trackage, additional machinery for cleaning, and other items which are counted part of the expenditures on the original construction. We have now five of these elevators, which in cost and capacity are as follows-giving round numbers:
Capital	Capacity,
Place.	Cost.	Bus.Port Arthur	
$1,407,000	3,250,000Saskatoon	
1,129,000	3,500,000Moosejaw	
1,314,000	3,500,000Calgary	
872,000	2,500,000Vancouver	
752,000	1,250,000


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I quite agree that, if the Government is going to build an elevator at Hudson Bay, the minister is very wise in preparing the foundation in connection with the construction of the dock, but I appeal to him to do without both the dock and the elevator.


George Eulas Foster: Talk to your
neighbour on the left (Mr. Oliver) and find put what he says.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: We will never want it,
and it will only be a waste of money like the rest of this enterprise. I appeal to him, as he generally shows common sense in these matters, to stop the expenditure for this year at any rate. ,


George Eulas Foster: I am going this far, that I am spending nothing on the elevator this year except what is necessary for the foundation.


Frank Oliver: Would the minister give
us information as to the present and prospective use of the elevator at Vancouver?


George Eulas Foster: I have left .over a vote for the operation of the grain system, and when that is taken up I will be prepared to give the hon. gentleman full information on this point. Generally I may say at this time that the elevator at Vancouver is finished and thoroughly equipped, and waiting for business. Very little business is offering, of course. The elevator was built in prospect of the trans-

fer of grain from the western part of the plains to the Old Country by way of the Panama canal. But the w.ar has stopped all that. If I had had the preternatural wisdom which seems to be predicated as necessary to a minister of the Crown, had I known five years ago just what would happen in the five years then coming, the Vancouver elevator probably would have been postponed for some time. But I did not know it; we went ahead, and we have that structure ready and waiting.


Frank Oliver: No person will find fault with the minister or with the Government for the building of the elevator at Vancouver, although things have turned out unfortunately for the enterprise. I understand that last evening the minister made a statement with reference to the feasibility of shipping grain in bulk through the tropics, a question which will have a very important bearing upon the success of this Vancouver elevator under normal conditions. I would suggest to the minister that, as the climate on the coast is very moist and the moisture is very penetrating, the elevator there should be equipped with the necessary means to ensure the absolute dryness of any grain going out from it for shipment.


George Eulas Foster: It must be remembered that the elevator at Vancouver is a transfer elevator, not a storage elevator. The elevators out of which the grain will go, at Calgary or Moosejaw, are equipped with driers, and the- probabilities are that the grain will leave them in good condition. The suggestion of my hon. friend is a good one, and I shall ascertain if the elevator there is equipped with a drier. The installation of a drier is a simple matter.


William Erskine Knowles: Has the minister yet
given consideration to my proposed Bill in connection with the employees of these Government elevators, providing that they should be put on the same footing as employees of ordinary commercial elevators?


George Eulas Foster: The Bill is now before the legal advisors of the department.


William Erskine Knowles: Is the minister's heart sympathetic towards the employees in this regard?


George Eulas Foster: Always towards the employees, but as to the method I should not like to say.


William Erskine Knowles: Do these elevators make a profit for the Government?
Sir G.EORGE FOSTER: Yes, a good profit.


William Erskine Knowles: Including interest on
the capital?


George Eulas Foster: I should not like to say that. The elevators have been in operation for three or four years, that at Port Arthur a little longer, and the profits now total about $600,000.


William Erskine Knowles: I presume that the report of the Grain Commission will give a statement of the balance of grain left on hand after the season's operations. When will that report be out?


George Eulas Foster: It is now in the printer's hands, giving the figures for the last crop year.


William Erskine Knowles: Is the surplus left on
hand every year substantial, and if so why is it so large?


George Eulas Foster: Unfortunately
it is not always on the right side.


Frank Oliver: In connection with the
interior storage elevators, my hon. friend asked if they had made a profit. They were not built for profit. But owing to the combination system between the Grain Commission and the railway companies, these interior storage elevators should make a profit. They are in the same happy position as the Emperor of Japan when he started a newspaper and issued an order that every subject who did not subscribe would have his head cut off. His paper was, of course, a tremendous financial success. So with these interior storage elevators. The railroads from time to time put an embargo on grain, will not accept grain for any place except the interior storage elevators. If under these circumstances, they cannot produce a profit, they must be very badly conceived or badly managed.


George Eulas Foster: I think that
story must be no better founded than the st;ory of the Emperor of Japan. Is it an historical fact that the Emperor of Japan did that?


Frank Oliver: I cannot vouch for that,
but I will vouch for the statement that last winter the railway companies did put an embargo on the carriage of grain elsewhere than to these interior storage elevators.


George Eulas Foster: I think there is a very good reason for it in some cases.

Mr.'MACDONALD: Is the minister going to spend any money constructing elevators other than the Hudson Bay elevator?


George Eulas Foster: No.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: 
George Eulas Foster: I do not expect to spend very much of it-probably not a dollar this year.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I hope the minister will persevere along that well-intentioned line, although I do not see why we should vote this money in war time.


George Eulas Foster: I am not going strong on elevators during war time.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Why do you take
the money?


George Eulas Foster: We do not know what might happen, but it is perfectly safe.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The minister thinks we can trust him. We will be very canny.
Census and statistics, $100,000.


Frank Oliver: In what position are the returns of the census taken last summer, for the three western provinces?


George Eulas Foster: Not altogether
completed but very nearly so. The schedules of the population have been published and are all complete, with the exception of the returns for Saskatchewan, which are now undergoing some revision.


Frank Oliver: Are the returns from
Manitoba and Alberta printed yet?


George Eulas Foster: 
Frank Oliver: Was this census as complete as the decennial census?


George Eulas Foster: Not as complete because it did not take in the same range of subjects.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Have the expenses of the 1911 census been paid?


George Eulas Foster: Not all.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Is there any work yet to be done?


George Eulas Foster: No.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Under whose authority is the census taken every five years in certain provinces?


George Eulas Foster: Under the authority of the Act. The subsidies are adjusted for the provinces every five years, and we have to get a census of the population, and we add to it essential information, which is much to be desired.


Frank Oliver: What was the length of time occupied in the taking of this census? Its accuracy depends somewhat on the length of time over which the work was spread.


George Eulas Foster: The actual census was taken as of June 1st.


Frank Oliver: How long a period was occupied in collecting information?


George Eulas Foster: I think about four weeks in the work on the ground.


William Erskine Knowles: Is it against the rules for persons to make a duplicate list, and hand it to a political organization?


George Eulas Foster: I never heard of it being done.


William Erskine Knowles: Is it against the rules, or is it being done?


George Eulas Foster: 
William Erskine Knowles: It would be a violation of the oath if the enumerator were to make a carbon copy and hand it to a political organization?	.


George Eulas Foster: He is bound by his oath to give no information, except according to his instructions.


William Erskine Knowles: Would such an act as I refer to be a violation of his oath?


George Eulas Foster: I would like to look into the matter. My impression is that it would be absolutely against the instructions.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What does the minister say in answer to that question?


George Eulas Foster: When it is proved to have been done, I will give an answer.
Canada Tear Book, $13,500.


Frank Oliver: The Canada Year Book is a very complete statistical statement, in regard to very many interesting subjects, but I have never seen one that was printed within the year. I do not think I have seen one published within two years of its date. The information contained is not available until, approximately, two years after the information had been collected. Is there a possibility of bringing that useful book approximately up to date?


George Eulas Foster: It is very difficult to bring it closely to date, for several reasons. Delays in the printing have, sometimes, prevented early publication. We have.tried to have the book issued as soon as possible after the compiling of the information. It is somewhat difficult, however, to have it issued immediately upon the conclusion of the year to which it relates. That is so with all year books. I am glad that my hon. friend 'believes it to be a good book. The information that I get from those who receive it, in other countries as well as in Canada, is that it takes a high place amongst the various year books that are published. Of course, a year book is designed not so much to give current information as to illustrate sources of information; to give actual information that is current at a certain time, and to put it in permanent form. We did make an improvement last year in the way of getting the book out earlier; whatever can be done this year will be done.


Frank Oliver: Admitting that the book is a matter of record, I think there is no doubt
that the longer its publication is delayed the less its value becomes. I know of somewhat similar publications that are quite up to date. For instance, that standard work, the Canadian Almanac, which contains a great deal of information, is brought almost absolutely up to date. There is, no doubt, a difference in the character of the two publications, but what has been done by the Canadian Almanac in that regard shows what is possible. If the minister appreciates the immediate value of the Year Book, I am sure that he can, by giving attention to the matter, make such arrangements as will bring it out within a very few months of the year to which it relates. As to the printing, surely that is not a matter of delay. There is a magnificent printing establishment across the canal, and there are
10.000	capable and well-equipped printing offices throughout the country, all anxious to do the work at fair prices, a large proportion of them entitled to such patronage as the Government is able to give them.


George Eulas Foster: I did take a personal interest in the year-book, 'because it is a child of my fancy. I have done my best to improve it and to bring it out in better time. I am now discussing with my officers the advisability ,of combining two years' information in the next year's publication, bringing it up to date, and keeping it up to date ever afterwards. This may have a little to recommend it in the way of economy, besides putting us in a position to do more prompt work.


Mr. C. A. WILSON:: How many copies are printed?


George Eulas Foster: 9,000 in English,
2.000	in French.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Who is the editor?


George Eulas Foster: Mr. Godfrey.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: How long has he
been connected with it?


George Eulas Foster: He was formerly with the Agriculture Department, but when Census and Statistics came to my department, he came with them. He is a very efficient officer. He is also editor of the Monthly Statistics Bulletin.


Charles Avila Wilson: How many copies
of the Year-book are distributed outside of Canada?


George Eulas Foster: I have not a list with me. We send them to libraries and we exchange, pretty generally and quite generously, with other Governments.

' Dominions Royal Commission, $10,000.


George Eulas Foster: This is to provide for Canada's share of the expense of printing and for looking after what little odd things may yet remain. The Dominions. Royal Commission has finished its work and made its final report. Later I shall ask the House to listen to an explanation as to what its work has been..


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: When will the minister make that statement?


George Eulas Foster: When we ta~ke up the item that is left, with regard to grain.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: When the minister was putting through his Estimates last winter, he made a similar assurance with regard to grain; but during the whole session we heard nothing more about grain. 1 think that the minister should before this have made a statement as to the work of the Dominions Royal Commission. The minister's services in that connection carried him all over the world. The report of the Commission is contained in a large number of volumes which it is difficult for members of the House to study in detail. The statement that only the minister could give with regard to the work that the Commission has accomplished would have been of very great benefit to members of the House in considering many of the problems that came before them. I hope that the minister will not do as he did last year; I hope that he will come back to us in regard to this matter.


George Eulas Foster: I will not leave you this year.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: When will my hon. friend make the statement? He ought to fix a time. Why not to-morrow?


George Eulas Foster: I do not think I can do it to-morrow. I will do it at no very distant date, and I will give the House information as to the time. It struck me that the better time to give an exposition of the work of the Dominions Royal Commission would be when the report of that body had been laid upon the Table, so that I could impress upon the minds of such facile members as my hon. friend the lesson that I wanted to teach, and so that I could point him to the document itself.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: A good many of those documents are around now-I have seen half a dozen of them-and we have [Sir George Foster.)
been waiting for my hon. friend to tell us something about the work of the Commission. We read in the English papers what the commissioners there have said about it; but although my right hon. friend in the Budget debate and on other occasions discussed the trade conditions of the country, he hae not yet given the House and the country the benefit of hie experience as to that commission. We are always glad to facilitate the passage of the minister's Estimates, but last year, although we were told we would have an account of the commandeering of grain the session came to an end and we never heard anything about it. I hope the minister is not going to treat in the same way this wonderful Royal Commission on which he worked so hard. Perhaps hon. gentlemen on his side voted wrongly on tariff matters and other things of that kind because my hon. friend did not give us the benefit of his wonderful experiences. I beg my hon. friend not to postpone his statement too long. We all know we are going into a contentious debate next week. The House is in a congenial mood to-day, and if the members heard that the minister was to speak on the subject of the Royal Commission tomorrow, we would have a large audience.


George Eulas Foster: I do not think
I can give my statement to-morrow, but I will not keep my hon. friend away long from that fountain of inspiration.


William Erskine Knowles: No minister can instruct and entertain this House so ably and successfully as the Minister of Trade and Commerce, both because of his natural endowments and because of the travels which, as a matter of strict duty, have fallen to his lot during former years. The minister has covered the greater part of the globe in the performance of his duties, and we, who stay at home, would be delighted to have an account of the interesting things he has seen and heard during his travels. He has travelled not altogether in his personal capacity, but as the representative of the Government and Parliament of Canada. Last year after he had taken part in the Paris Conference, on his return to Canada he toured this country and gave the people the advantage of his very interesting addresses. He came very near my own city, giving the people of Regina an account of his travels. In this House, we discuss matters that are hum-drum and matters that are grave, and next week we shall enter upon a debate that will be extremely serious. I think, therefore, it would be

informing and refreshing if we could have from the minister at a very early date an account of all the sight-seeings he must have had.


George Eulas Foster: I certainly cannot withstand that appeal; I will make my statement at the earliest possible opportunity.
Gold and Silver Marking Act, $4,000.


Frank Oliver: In some of the papers I have seen complaints in regard to the working out of this Act. Have any such complaints come to the attention of the minister?


George Eulas Foster: No, the Act is working very well. It is under the supervision of Mr. W. J. Ryan, a very faithful and competent officer.


William Erskine Knowles: Is there any officer in the West?


George Eulas Foster: No.


William Erskine Knowles: The trouble seems to be in the West where travelling pedlars sell their goods, and the legitimate dealers, in order to have the Act invoked, must take steps through Ottawa, and that takes up so much time that the purpose of the Act is rendered ineffective. It would be better if some officer were established at Winnipeg to whom legitimate dealers in the western towns might apply.
. Sir GEORGE FOSTER: Representations to that effect have been made, but the Act seems to be working pretty successfully as it is.


Frank Oliver: In the instance I mentioned the complaint was that in actual operation the Act had worked in favour of articles not of sterling character.


George Eulas Foster: That complaint was fairly well founded at first, but an amendment made to the Act two-years ago remedied that.
West India cable, $38,933.33.


George Eulas Foster: 
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Is the cable state-owned or privately owned?


George Eulas Foster: The cable is owned by -a company. There were two or three companies originally, one owning a cable from Halifax to Bermuda and one amongst the islands themselves. We got these companies together in London and put them under certain conditions which they have fulfilled, and as they fulfilled those conditions and made the reductions, a certain subsidy was paid. The full subsidy is paid for four years. If after that period the profits are large, a portion of them come back until the subsidies which have been paid are paid off. There have been very considerable reductions in the rates.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The time for re-payment has not yet arrived.


George Eulas Foster: There is one year more to run.


Frank Oliver: What is the southern terminus of this cable?


George Eulas Foster: The cable runs through all the islands.


Frank Oliver: Does it go to Guiana?


George Eulas Foster: It runs from
Halifax to Bermuda by the Halifax-Ber-muda Cable Company; thence to Jamaica by the Direct West Indies Company; thence to the several islands and British Guiana by the West Indies and Panama Company.


Charles Avila Wilson: What is the total amount to be paid next year?


George Eulas Foster: $38,000 is the
amount of the subsidy.


Charles Avila Wilson: I understood there is only one more year to run.


George Eulas Foster: After that it
was supposed that the company's lines would be more profitable, under the new arrangement and with the betterment of the cables, and all profits over and above a certain amount were to be shared equally and the moiety to be paid back to Great Britain and Canada.
Supervision Lake and Ocean Freight Rates,


George Eulas Foster: There has been no appointment and no expenditure under this item up to the present time. Things have been so absolutely confused during the last three years that I have made no appointment.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

After Recess.
The Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Indians-British Columbia, 5166,050.


George Perry Graham: Difficulty seems to have existed for some time with regard to the Indians of British Columbia. A deputation of the Indians waited on the Government about a week ago, and I am not sure that they did not go so far as to carry their case to the foot of the 'Throne, at least they sent a delegation to the Mother 'Country. Can the minister tell us what steps have been taken to settle the difficulty, and what is the position of the matter at the present time?


Hon. W. J. ROCHE (Superintendent General of Indian Affairs):: The question involved is really that of the title to Indian lands in British Columbia. There has been a dispute for many years between the British Columbia Government and the Indians as to the Indian title; in fact, I understand, some of the Indians go so far as to claim the whole of the land of British Columbia-that is, they say that their title has never been extinguished. It was because of these difficulties that my predecessor in the Superintendent Generalship appointed a commission to investigate the reserves in British Columbia. In 1913, an Order in Council was passed providing that if the Indians would abide by the decision of an impartial tribunal as to reserves, the full question of the Indian title would be submitted to the Privy Council, through the ordinary course. This impartial tribunal was to ascertain, with regard to each band of Indians in the province, whether the area of its reserve was large enough for the band or not. In case the reserve was found to be too small, the British Columbia Government promised to increase its area by the addition of provincial lands; and if the reserve was found to be larger than necessary for the band, the area was to be cut down accordingly. For many years the Indians have been trying to get an appeal to the Privy Council, but the British Columbia Government did not approve of having the case submitted in that way. Neither our predecessors in Government nor ourselves were able, for a time, to bring the British Columbia Government to agree to submit the case. We pledged ourselves, if the terms of the Order in Council were carried out, to have a reference to the Privy Council, and the British Columbia Government consented to the same. The find-
ings in regard to the reserves have been made, and are to be approved by the British Columbia Government and the Dominion Government. Of course, Mr. O'Meara, counsel for some of the Indians, takes the position that these findings should be submitted to the Indians for their consideration before they are submitted to either Government. I think that is a fair statement of the dispute with the Indans whom Mr. O'Meara is representing. There are many Indians in British Columbia who are willing to adhere to the terms of the Order in Council and to abide by the findings of the commission, and to have the appeal as to the title of the land carried through the ordinary course.


George Perry Graham: Is it very near a settlement?


William James Roche: Not so far as the Privy
Council is concerned.
M. BOULAY (Rimouski) (texte): Monsieur le President, je voudrais avoir de l'honorable ministre de l'lnterieur, cer-taines informations au sujet du personnel des employes superieurs de son departe-ment. J'ai fait une liste des noms des principaux officiers qui regoivent un salaire de $2,400 a $6,000 par annee et dans cette liste, qui comprend vingt-sept noms, je ne releve que les noms de trois Canadians frangais.
Je desirerais savoir de l'honorable ministre si, lorsqu'il a pris la charge de son departement, cet etat de choses existait.
Comme il ne semble y avoir personne pour me repondre en frangais, je repeterai mes observations en anglais.
I will now repeat in English the effect of my remarks. I would like to have from the minister certain information. I find from a list I have made up of the superior officers of his department, that out of twenty-seven officers who receive high salaries-from $2,400 to $6,000-there are only three bearing French-Canadian names.
I would like to know if that condition existed when he took charge of the department, or whether it is a condition that he has made since taking charge. I made some remarks on the same line when the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture were before the committee, showing that out of nineteen highly-paid officers in that department, only one bore a French-Canadian name. The hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) took it upon himself to say that this was a fair proportion for us. It is a real disgrace that a mem-

ber from the province of Quebec, representing a French county, should come here and say, in the face of such evidence as that, that we have our share of the public positions. This state of affairs should not be, in view of the number of French-Canadians in this country, for it indicates the belief that we have not French-Canadians qualified to occupy good positions in the Civil Service.
It is not because I covet those positions for my fellow-countrymen, not at all; but it seems to be a discrimination that should not exist, and a knowledge of that discrimination amongst our countrymen predisposes them to anger, and puts them into such a spirit that sometimes they are more than mad, and with reason. Hereafter, when inquiry is made why the French-Canadians of the province of Quebec are not always pleased with what is done, we may find the explanation of their attitude by looking a little more sharply into the way in which they are used and have been used. I do not blame this Administration more than its . predecessors, because I think that if we have lost ground we lost more ground during the previous Administration than during this one. In fact, when the Laurier Government came into power in 1896, we had four deputy ministers in different departments of the Government at Ottawa, and when we came into power in 1911 we found only one. That shows that the Government preceding this is largely guilty of the conditions that we found when we came into power, and that may be the reason why the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) the other day so strongly defended the Minister of Agriculture, saying that he was giving us almost real fair play.
I do not want to insist any longer on this question.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Are you not given fair play?


Herménégilde Boulay: I am getting fair play in saying what I say because nobody can say it is not true; I have the figures here before me; they are taken from the Auditor General's report, and cannot be contradicted. Every one in this House has a right to state the facts and I have stated them in order to show that I am right when I claim and when we claim that we do not receive entire justice, as we should. I should like to know from the minister if this condition existed in his department when he took charge of it.


William James Roche: Of course, we do not make appointments to the Inside Service; they have to come through the Civil Service
Commission. Those positions are open to French Canadians just as to English-speaking persons, and if they do not come up and pass the examinations the Government cannot be blamed for their not doing so. In the Indian Department there has been no change, and certainly there has been no intended (Jisorimination against any nationality. As a matter of fact, there are only six more employees in the Indian Department, both Inside and Outside Service, than in 1911. There is no more relative disproportion to-day in the Inside Service of the Indian Department than when this Government came into power.


Frank Oliver: I desire to bring to the
attention of the minister certain allegations which have 'been forwarded to me for the purpose of being brought to his attention, in relation to the Okanagan Indian reserve. I presume that these matters have some relation to the commission which was under discussion a few minutes ago. At any rate, my information is that certain complaints were made by the Indians in December, 1916, and were forwarded by them to the commissioner, J. A. J. McKenna, but up to the present time my information is that no satisfactory action lias been taken in regard to these many matters. The complaints as set out are very long. They include:
1. That Chief Baptiste Logan was deposed without cause. 2. That no complaint or charge was ever brought to the attention of the band against him. 3. That Inspector Cumminskie's sole reason for opposition to the chief was that Baptiste had opposed the illegal deal for the surrender of the Long Lake Indian Reserve, Inspector Cumminskie having- been one of the interested parties to this deal. 4. That the election of Pierre Michell, conducted by Inspector Cumminskie and Agent Smith, from Kamloops, was a strictly unlawful election in which every right of the band was set aside, and by right of authority a disreputable chief was thrust on the band. 5. That reports sent to the department by the officials who engineered this election were deliberately false reports. 6. That Pierre Michell (the chief who was elected in the place of Logan) did not secure a majority vote. 7. That he was not elected by acclamation as reported by Inspector Cumminskie or the agent from Kamloops, if he made a report on the proceedings.
Another complaint is:
1. That members of the band have been unjustly deprived of their rights to election for the position of chief without just cause. 2. That members of the band have been forcibly expelled from public business meetings of the band without just cause, by order of Inspector Megraw.
Another complaint is:
1. That the matter of the Henderson lease was and is a criminal invasion of all the rights

of the band. 2. That Alexander Henderson's agreement was criminal and illegal. 3. That Inspector Megraw's conduct in connection with this matter was directly in variance with his duties as Inspector of Agencies and directly opposed to the will and best interests of the band.
Another complaint is:
That Inspector Megraw exceeded his authority in forcing the man Henderson's presence on the reserve under the provision of a strictly illegal agreement between a Nichola Indian, a non-member of the band, and a white man.
Another complaint is:
1. Inspector Megraw's reports regarding the incompetence of Chief Gaston, immediately following the chief's refusal to countenance the fraudulent lease to Henderson, calls for the strictest investigation. 2. That Inspector Megraw has acted in an underhand manner with the chief; has animated his personal spleen against chief. That no charge has been brought against the chief at any meeting. 3. That Inspector desires the removal of the chief solely on personal grounds and to secure the election of a chief amenable to officials. 4. That inspector has encouraged and favoured men on the reserve known to be openly hostile to the chief.
Another complaint is:
That railway rights of way have been granted through vaiious reserves of the band and the band kept in ignorance of these transactions.
That band funds from the proceeds of right-of-way of these railways have been unlawfully distributed to non-members of the Okanagan band, to the amount of several thousand dollars.
The sixth charge is:
That officials have permitted for years the fencing of large areas of our reserve for range purposes, said ranges being exploited for individual profit.
The seventh charge is:
1. That promiscuous cutting of timber has been permitted. 2. That individual half-breeus have been granted permission to remove hundreds of thousands of feet, for personal profit. 3. That no adequate return has been made. 4. That a complete return of all timbers sold, and money paid, amounts to whom paid, for the past five years, shall he procured on commission to hand.
The eighth charge is:
1. That for years against the repeated protests of the band, undesirable characters, American half-breeds, American Indians, Indians from local reserves, have been permitted to intrude upon our reserve. 2. That no action has ever been taken on the many complaints made that they have received every comfort and consideration from officials. 3. That the intruding element has almost exclusive control of all our business. 4. That they openly boast of our helplessness to have them removed. 5. That they openly defy the authority of the chief. 6. That Inspector Megraw and J. R. Brown are fully aware of the criminal characters. 7. That Inspector Megraw has approved of threatened criminal violence expressed by this element. 8. That 90 per cent of all troubles

on reserve is caused by this intruding element, trespassing on our reserve. 9. That the band demands a thorough investigation, and the expulsion of all undesirable characters from our reserve. All reports regarding any claim of half-breeds having been approved as members of the band, with dates of such, if any.
The ninth charge is:
That inspector and agent persist in continual employment of Isaac Harris, charged as false interpreter. Cummiskle's principal agent in attempt of sale and illegal surrender of Long Lake Reserve. That favours are granted this man at expense of band, knowing that the band holds this man guilty of the most serious crimes. That a special grant for competition was made for his benefit, and his employment is detrimental to the band's interest. That Inspector Megraw has persistently employed men as special policemen, whom he knew to be openly hostile to the chief and the Okanagan Indians.
The tenth charge is:
1. That Inspector Cummiskie allowed encroachment on our reserve at Priest's valley, surveying portions of reserve to adjoining property. 2. That reserve at Swan Lake has been encroached on by adjoining owners.
The eleventh charge is:
1. That the local officials have overlooked the procuring of young girls for immoral purposes. 2. That Pierre Michel procured the young daughter of Lena Helleen for the use of Alexander. 3. That nothing was done in the matter beyond Inspector Megraw informing Alexander he should be in jail.
The twelfth charge is:
That Alexander, a Nichola Indian, unlawfully secured and was paid $2,790 of the Okanagan band funds which was squandered by Alexander In automobiles and young girls.
The thirteenth charge is:
1. That Inspector Megraw has had cognizance of open' threats to personal violence and murder of our present secretary, Mr. J. H. Christie, by one Frank Godfpresen, an American intruder on the reserve with criminal record. 2. That when Inspector Megraw's attention was called to this matter he fully approved of the crime.
The fourteenth charge is:
Mrs. Josephine Edwards, of Coyote Creek, Indian Reserve charged that Jimmy Logan, an Indian on Head of the Lake Reserve, stole two horses from the open range on the reserve, the property of the complainant. That Inspector Megraw refused to allow Agent Brown to investigate. That he refused to assist her to secure the horses; that he protected Logan for this theft.
The fifteenth charge is:
That Mary Nicholas of Head of Lake Indian Reserve charges Johnny Ophheimer, an American half-breed and professional gambler, with the abduction of her daughter from her husband, Patrick Johny. of Enderby. That he took her to the States for two years, that he returned here two years ago and lives openly on reserve with my daughter as his wife. That he threatens to take my girl away and I will

never see her again, if I make any trouble for him.
The sixteenth charge is:
That since the retirement of Mr. McKay, as Indian agent, who was held in the highest regard by every Indian on our reserve, and whose memory we all respect, we have received no consideration, instruction or assistance in any manner whatsoever, from any official in connection with the Indian Department.
These charges were formulated at a meeting at Black Town, on December 23, 1916. In the same action complaint was made that certain payments were made, as follows :
Moneys paid to Hermoin Gregoire, $752.50 ; moneys paid to Joseph Jimy, $703.19, both men are intruders on reserve Shuswap Indians; to Alexander Chilahista, $2,763.50, a Necklo Indian (all non-members of the Okanagan Band. Information at hand regarding Duck Lake Reserve, Mrs. Christina MeDougal, to whom $570 was paid, is a white, woman by marriage, no right on reserve. The distribution of the 50 per cent of the sum of $2,043.90 is not credited by the band-have no knowledge of this. On this distribution by agent, they wish the questions asked for information, the individuals' names and amounts paid.
They ask for information in regard to this distribution, and wish to know the amounts paid, and the individuals to whom they were paid. I am simply placing before the minister the statement which has been forwarded to me.


William James Roche: By whom is it signed?


Frank Oliver: A gentleman who signs as secretary of the Indian meeting, J. H. Christie. The allegations are of a serious character, and were made long ago, and apparently they have not been acted upon by the department; and the only thing for me to do is to place them before the minister in the most public manner, in order that there shall be a show-down and a conclusion of this affair, and that these charges shall be absolutely proven or dis-proven. If disproven, the parties to such terrible accusations should be punished. If they are proven, it will indicate a terrible condition of affairs in the administration in my hon. friend's department. It is certainly desirable that no condition should exist which would in any way justify such statements as I have felt compelled to place before the House.


William James Roche: Unfortunately, I have been given to understand that there are- at least two factions among the Indians, and this man Christie, who prefers these charges, is not-an angel. If my information about him is correct, he is a most unreliable individual, and no credence can be placed upon any charges he sends to any member of this House. In fact, he has written a number of very impertinent communications, threatening that if we did not take action he would have the matter aired oil the floor of Parliament. Some of the charges which he has forwarded here are, on their face, so absurd that their falsehood is patent to anybody. A number of these charges have been brought to the attention of the department before, and others have never been placed before the department. It is true they were referred to Mr. McKenna for investigation, but about that time Mr. McKenna was superannuated, which stopped the investigation. He is not now an official of the department. Inspector Brown is not an appointee of this Government. If any such conditions as have been mentioned prevailed under his agency, I admit that it would be most discreditable. No agent should be allowed to hold his agency if he permitted that condition of affairs to exist. But I have too much confidence in Mr. Brown's uprightness and in his ability as an Indian agent to believe that he would allow these things to happen without bringing them to the attention of the department. There have been certain abuses on that reserve. Our Chief Inspector for the province, Mr. Ditchburn, is there for the purpose, among other things, of investigating charges that were referred to the departtnent. Mr. Ditchburn is a good inspector who has had long experience and he has full authority to investigate the conditions in this reserve. I should be pleased to place in his hands any charges that he is not in possession of, in order that he may investigate them. But I fancy that a great many of these apparently serious charges will, when investigated, be shown to be figments of the imagination, if not of Mr. Christie, at least of some others on that reserve.


Frank Oliver: I shall be very glad if it
turns out that these charges are unfounded. But I have to make the reflection on my friend's administration that these charges were made in the fall of 1916, and the -minister should surely be informed by this time as to what foundation there was for them. As to Mr. Brown, if he was appointed by the previous Government and if this condition prevails upon the reserve, undoubtedly he should cease to be in the employ of the department-he could not cease soon enough to please me. It will be noticed that the complaints seem to be directed rather against his superior Mr. COMMONS
Megraw. I do not know who Mr. Megraw is, but the blame seems to be laid upon him. I hope that Mr. Ditchburn has authority not only to inspect, but also to adjust these matters, to prevent trespass upon the reserve, and to decide who is entitled to be a member of the band and to share in the benefits of that membership. This is a matter that should be settled on the ground Iby a man of sufficient judgment and responsibility. These very serious assertions, if there is any foundation for them, constitute a grave scandal against the Indian Department, and the minister did not do himself or the country justice in not taking more prompt means to clear them up. I do not know Mr. Christie; he may be good or he may ibe bad, that is not the question. The question is, do these things exist or do they not? The welfare of the Indians and the good faith and good name of Canada are in my hon. friend's hands. I hope that he will not treat the matter lightly simply because Mr. Christie may be, in some degree, an undesirable person. I hope that he will recognize the importance of the proper discharge of the country's responsibilities to its wards, through the medium of his department.


William James Roche: There will be a thorough investigation and our inspector will have power to remedy anything that is wrong.


Frank Oliver: I may as well place before the department some other matters contained in this correspondence which relates to other reserves. There is a charge in regard to the West Bank reserve. I am not aware of what reserve that is, or whether it is part of the Okanagan reserve. The first charge is:
That one Galfeately has with the apparent approval of our agent, Mr. Brown, and Inspector Megraw, diverted, taken from our reserve, by flume, all the water which we have used for the purpose of irrigation on the reserve from Cedar Creek. That flume was built over and part in the ditch, constructed by us 45 odd years since.
The second charge is:
That white men's fences have been allowed to encroach upon the reserve at West Bank. That similar encroachment has been permitted on upper reserve. Repeated requests to agent to have fences removed. Nothing done to date.
The removal of a number of men from the Okanagan reserve is requested-. They are referred to as Indians from the United States and local British Columbia halfbreeds and Indians, their names being as follows:

Frank Godfresson, Jimmy Marchell, Willie Ashton, Louise Brasere, Frank Marchand, Pere Louie, Alex Sen, Johny Martins, Narcisse Baptist, Luke, Pere Like, John Ophenheirmer, Joe Parker, Ernest Brewer, Bono, Alexander, Alex Edward, Billy Brewer, Billy Lixard, Francois Gregoir, Paul Nelson, Basil Smithins, Isaac Harris, Jimmy Logan, Scottie, Louie Chacko, Pere Michell, Billie Swallwall.
These are claimed to be intruders in the Okanagan reserve. There is also a complaint here of irregularities in the surrender or expropriation of the Trout Creek experimental farms, in respect of the method of valuation and the amount paid. It is asserted that the matter was not placed fairly before the band and that Inspector Megraw threatened the displeasure of the Government upon those opposing the surrender. With regard to the railway right of way, they want to know the area, the valuation, the amount paid and to whom it was paid. There is also a query in regard to water deflected from Snake Creek and a complaint of trespass on and deflection of all water from the reserve adjoining the townsite. This complaint is signed by Mitchell Jack and Cosmos Sam. The Indians of the Salmon River reserve also complain that there has never been any effort on the reserve to prevent crimes and to secure order. They claim that the impracticability of meeting the agent at Enderby has not been considered by the officials of the department; that the Chief maintains an American Indian on the reserve and that they desire his removal as an undesirable trouble-maker. They complain that moneys fdr furnishing church or for sale of logs is not accounted for; that Enderby men receive permission to cut their timber; that their timber is not conserved; that a resident of Enderby has by permission fenced a great portion of remaining timber on reserve and claims personal ownership. The Indians at Salmon River Indian Reserve signing this complaint are: William Nonish, Jim Has-kit, Jimmy Felix, George Potice, Andrew Morris , Francois Thom, Alex Nahaskit, Me Phillips, Dan Phillips, Dermis Jim, Harry Bill, Billie Felix, Andrew George. I am aware of the impossibility of satisfying all the varying demands and aspirations of the Indians on the different reserves, but apparently in connection with the latter matters that I have mentioned, there is a question of encroachment of outsiders upon the reserves and of intruders in the ranks. These are matters of administration and claim the careful consideration, of the department.

Indian education, $734,115.


Frank Oliver: Is any capital expenditure included in this item?


William James Roche: No.


Frank Oliver: This is simply to carry
on the schools for another year?


William James Roche: Yes.


Frank Oliver: Would the minister make some statement in regard to Indian education?


William James Roche: The appropriation for this year is divided as follows:
Residential schools.	Per capita grant.
Ontario, Boarding schools	 $35,200
' Industrial schools	 51,000
Manitoba, Boarding schools	 68,805
Industrial schools	 27,950
Sasktchewan, Boarding schools,	 67,425
Industrial schools	 29,250
Alberta and
N. W. T. Boarding schools	 104,725
Industrial schools	 23,400
British
Columbia Boarding schools	 50,600
Industrial schools	 73,320
Yukon	Boarding schools	 7,000

Total per capita grant, residential schools

Day Schools.
Teachers' salaries
Ontario	   $22,425
Quebec	  14,515
Nova Scotia	  5,400
New Brunswick	 5,000
Prince Edward Island	 600
Manitoba	   22,000
Saskatchewan	 16,620
Alberta and N. W. T	 3,400
British Columbia	 35,590
Yukon	   3,700
Total salaries teachers, day schools
129,250
Inspector British Colombia schools :
Salary and Expenses	
Assistance to ex-pupils	
Buildings and repairs	
2,500
8,000
55,690
Total appropriation, 1917-1918

In the year 1910 a new arrangement was entered into by this Government with the various denominations which have charge of these schools. The schools were divided into three classes. A certain standard as to accommodation, equipment, etc., was decided on at a conference between the Government and the different denominations, and the denominational schools which complied with this standard received the highest per capita grant. Then there were departmental 6chools on which the department had stood the original outlay and which were to be brought up to this standard. Then there were the class 2 churcn schools, somewhat inferior in character and quality, which did not draw as large a per capita allowance as the other two classes. This
has increased the grant for education considerably by materially increasing the per capita grant, and by raising the standard of the schools and giving more room, better equipment, and more sanitary methods. Any schools that are under that system are most creditable indeed. The pupils are attending the schools in increasing numbers. We have put a check on capital expenditure during war time, and are simply keeping the schools in repair, although we have been strongly pressed to make capital expenditures by denominational schools at various points where they are really inwant of better accommodation.


Frank Oliver: I am in sympathy with
the minister in his decision, not to invest-

in any capital expenditure during war time. The Anglican 'bishop of Athabaska, however, has brought to my attention the fact that the increased cost of the necessaries of life is pressing very heavily upon the resources of the church having charge of the schools in his diocese. I understand that he has applied to the department for some recognition of the more difficult conditions. Has any such application been made, and if so, has any recognition been granted ?


William James Roche: Requests of that description have come from that bishop and from several other bishops. They say that the present high cost of living is such that the existing per capita grant is not sufficient to prevent them from going behind. In some instances we have been asked to make up the deficit. We have not done so as yet, and we have not promised just at present to increase the grant.
A delegation of representatives of almost all the schools was to have interviewed the department some time ago about this matter, but they did not turn up according to programme. So far we have not passed favourably on any requests for increased assistance.


Frank Oliver: I do not know that I would suggest to the minister either the assumption of deficits or any very large increase in the grants, but it is a fact that in the north country especially, where the cost of living is at a maximum and transportation very expensive in proportion to the amount of actual supplies consumed, the present conditions bear very heavily upon the schools, and I would respectfully suggest that temporary assistance in the way of a grant be given to them to meet the increased cost of the actual food consumed. It could be a special grant during this period of stress.


William James Roche: Per capita?


Frank Oliver: It would, of course, be per capita. I think the department would not be doing substantial injustice to the country at large if it specially recognized the schools in that part of the country where the difficulties of carrying on the work are so great.. If the minister saw fit to consider this suggestion favourably in respect of the schools in the Anglican and Roman Catholic dioceses of Athabasca and Mackenzie, assistance would have to be given as soon as possible because supplies for the winter are now going forward. The other schools which are accessible by rail could be dealt with at any time, hut the schools in the more re-

mote outposts of civilization, where the. work is particularly arduous and expensive, have to make their arrangements very far in advance, and it would really be deplorable if, the department having decided to assist them, the assistance came too late to benefit the schools this year.


William James Roche: I will consider my hon. friend's suggestion.


George William Kyte: Has a teacher been engaged for the Indian school at Salmon River in the place of Ernest McNeil, who resigned a few months ago?


William James Roche: Yes, Miss Maud E. Brennan. I think she is there now.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What is the curriculum at these Indian schools? What standard of education are the pupils supposed to reach?


William James Roche: I understand that the Indian schools are conducted on much the same lines as the public schools
9 p.m. of the province. The teachers have to be qualified under the provincial laws, and it is sometimes rather difficult to get them for isolated places, but we do the very best we can. The same subjects are taught as in the public schools, and the same text books are used. The schools are inspected by the public school inspectors, and the pupils are supposed to come up to the standard required by the provincial educational authorities.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Have the pupils any aptitude for arithmetic, reading and writing? How long do they continue their studies, and what are the results obtained in these schools? I do not for a moment suggest that we should drop them, but I wish to know whether the Indians appreciate the educational advantages placed at their disposal. There are small Indian schools in my part of the country, but they are not up to the high school standard. Is it the same in other provinces? Do any of the pupils take up teaching themselves?


William James Roche: It varies with the different provinces. I believe the Indian schools in Ontario have been very successful, the pupils attending school about as long as the pupils at the public schools, and sometimes competing with the white children in the entrance examinations for the high schools.
I do not think the Indian schools in Nova Scotia have been quite as successful, but on the whole we cannot complain very much about the results. In the Maritime Prov-

inces the attendance has not been so good as'in some of the other provinces.


Charles Marcil: What about the Indian schools in Quebec? Are their studies confined to one language?
Mr. ROC'HE: In the province of Quebec there are twenty-eight day schools. There are 609 boys on the roll, and 647 girls, total 1,256. The average attendance is 802. There are no boarding or industrial schools in that province. In the French districts the Indians are taught in French, and in the essentially English districts in English.


Charles Marcil: To what districts does
the minister refer as English districts?


William James Roche: Such as Caughnawaga and Oka.


Charles Marcil: What about the schools
in Bonaventure county?


William James Roche: I have not that information before me.


Charles Marcil: Will the minister give me information on that point later?


William James Roche: Yes.


Frank Oliver: What is the position of
the school at Hay River on Great Slave lake?


William James Roche: They have put up a new
school quite recently at their own expense. There are 25 pupils, and they get the usual per capita grant of $125, and have drawn, on that account, $3,125.


Charles Marcil: Is there any special reason why there should not be industrial schools in the East as well as in the West?


William James Roche: I do not know of any reason.


Charles Marcil: Industrial education is
coming to Ibe recognized as a necessity.


William James Roche: They have not sent in requests for these schools.


Charles Marcil: Does not the minister
think that the department should take the lead in this matter, the Indians being the wards .of the Government? If the Indians made a success of the industrial life as a result of proper training of the young in their schools, it would be a great credit to the departmeent.


William James Roche: Perhaps the Indians are
getting more civilized


Charles Marcil: But civilization goes
hand in hand with industrial efficiency.
The trained man is more useful to society than the untrained. I think this matter is well worthy of consideration.
lilr. OLIVER:	Is there an industrial
school at Fort Simpson carried on by the Roman Catholic church?


William James Roche: No.


Frank Oliver: Then, Fort Providence is the furthest north school?


William James Roche: There are schools at Hay River, Fort Resolution, and Fort Prov dence.


Frank Oliver: Nothing below Fort Providence?


William James Roche: No.


Frank Oliver: What is the standing of the Fort Providence school?


William James Roche: There are sixty-five pupils, and they get the usual grant.


Frank Oliver: There is a school at Fort Resolution?


William James Roche: Yes-sixty pupils.


Frank Oliver: And there is a day school at Fort Smith?


William James Roche: Yes. The day schools do not get a per capita grant, but this school is given a grant of $500.


Frank Oliver: Are there both Protestant and Roman Catholic schools at Fort Vermilion?


William James Roche: At Fort Vermilion there is a day school with twenty pupils. It is a Roman Catholic school.


Frank Oliver: There is no boarding school there and no school carried on by the Anglicans?


William James Roche: No.


Frank Oliver: And at Waoiskaw?


William James Roche: There is a Roman Catholic school with 25 pupils and a Church of England school as well. Both are boarding schools.


Frank Oliver: And at Lesser Slave Lake and Grouard?


William James Roche: There is a day school and a boarding school of Roman Catholics, the latter with 25 pupils; and an Anglican school as well.


Frank Oliver: And at Fort Chipewyan?


William James Roche: There is a Roman Catholic boarding school.


Frank Oliver: No Anglican school there?


William James Roche: No.


Frank Oliver: There was formerly an Anglican day school there.


William James Roche: I do not think there is any day school at Fort Chipewyan.


Charles Marcil: Are there any Indian schools in the Ungava district in the province of Quebec?


William James Roche: No.


Charles Marcil: Are there no Indians
there?


William James Roche: There are scattered nomadic tribes, but no treaty Indians.


Charles Marcil: Are they not under the charge of the department?


William James Roche: We have to care for them sometimes-give them provisions, and so on.


Frank Oliver: Is there an Indian boarding school in operation in the Yukon?


William James Roche: Yes, there is a Church of England boarding school at Carcross with 35 pupils.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Do they attempt to teach agriculture in the various Indian schools in addition to the ordinary English education?


William James Roche: At some of the schools, yes. In several of these places they have farms attached to the schools and teach them agriculture.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: How many Indians are there in the Yukon?


William James Roche: 1,528.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In connection with industrial education the teacher in the Indian district of Eskasoni, I understand, has made application for assistance in building a barn. He has a small barn some 15 feet by 20 feet, but is anxious to have a larger one, as by working the land he is enabled to eke out his small salary.


William James Roche: The matter has been
brought to our attention and is now being considered.
Indians generally. Advances to Indians surrendering their lands under provisions of section 89 of the Indian Act, which will afterwards be repaid from the avails of the land $25,000.


Frank Oliver: Are there any surrenders in progress or in prospect?


William James Roche: We have been trying quite recently to get a surrender of a portion of the Blood Reserve which, as my hon. friend

knows is a very fine agricultural district, and at least a preliminary meeting has been held, so that there is a chance of a surrender being secured.
Indians generaly to prevent the spread of tuberculosis, $10,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Has the minister any statistics to show whether tuberculosis is increasing or decreasing among the Indian tribes of Canada?


William James Roche: I cannot say it is on the increase but, as the hon. member knows, it has been very prevalent. We have been trying to educate them to better sanitary conditions and have endeavoured, by a system of education, to get them to take better care of themselves. I cannot say that so far the diseases has diminished to any great extent, but it certainly has not increased.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The minister sends a doctor among the tribes, treating the Indians for various diseases, and would it not be well to have some one spend some time among them educating them to improve their living conditions and so check the spread of tuberculosis among them? I think that at the present rate it will ultimately destroy them in most places.


William James Roche: We are doing all we can to educate them along sanitary lines.
General.-Surveys, Ontario, Quebec and Maritime provinces, $3,000.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What is the purpose of that general item for surveys?


William James Roche: It is generally to subdivide surveys into farm lots.
General.-Relief to destitute Indians in remote districts, $60,000.


Frank Oliver: What is the method of distribution of relief to destitute Indians in the country north- of Edmonton?


William James Roche: The department sends in supplies to the various posts. In some instances the Hudson's Bay Company supplies goods on request of an Indian agent or a missionary, and in some cases the mounted police are utilized for the purpose of distribution.


Frank Oliver: There are rival . trading posts and trading companies. Does the department recognize the existence of these rival traders, or does it deal with only one trading firm?


William James Roche: They divide up the order. Sometimes it goes to the Hudson's Bay Company and sometimes to Revillon Freres.

They do not go to one firm only for supplies, each firm gets its share.


Frank Oliver: Is it divided up in this way, that at one post the Hudson's Bay Company and at another some other trader?


William James Roche: Not always, no.


Frank Oliver: The facts are that, in the north country the Indians trade just as people in other parts of the country trade, some with one firm and some with another. If there are two rival traders at a certain point, some Indians will trade with one and some with another. It is not usual for the Indians to trade promiscuously. They have their ideas in that regard, and, generally, an Indian family will trade with one firm or with the other, and it is recognized that there is that division of the trade. If one of these trading firms is given a monopoly of the distribution of the Government supplies in that locality, they have a huge advantage over their rivals, and, while I suppose the Government is not bound to take cognizance of that condition of affairs, I take the liberty of pointing it out. Of course, I speak only of those who are unquestionably responsible, but if there is any desire to act fairly as between the rival traders, I think it would be fair to make some arrangement whereby each of those rival traders would be responsible for some part of the distribution; otherwise it would be hardly just. Trade rivalry is just as keen as in the far north country as it is in the east, perhaps a little keener. I do not know how far the Government is cognizant of that condition and recognizes it.


William James Roche: We recognize where the
Indian trades, and allow him to purchase from the firm he has been accustomed to deal with.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The Micmacs, in my county, live near the mouth of the harbour, and, although, at one time, they went from their summer homes to various camps in the winter, they have now abandoned their old habits in many ways, and live in one settlement contiguous to the mouth of the hanbour. There is a large tract of land reserved there. I should like the minister to state whether this land is held in the same manner as the western lands which belong to the Indians, or whether it is Dominion Government property, on which the Indians are living, and whether the Government are able to deal with it the same as with other property.
150i


William James Roche: Those reserves are held in the same manner as reserves are held in other parts of the Dominion, namely, in trust, and before we can sell the lands, we have to obtain a surrender.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: We have not a regular band and chief-just an isolated group of Indians who happen to be living at this particular point. The Government has purchased land in the vicinity of the coal piers where the Indians reside, and the Indians have completely deserted all their old habits and have been engaged largely as freight handlers. Where the Government purchase lands which the Indians are permitted to use, is the purchase made out of a trust fund belonging to the band, or how does the Government make the purchase? Some reservations in the West have been set aside for the benefit of the Indians, but I do not think that is the case in this particular instance.


William James Roche: Some reserves in Nova Scotia have been purchased by Parliamentary appropriation.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Will the minister take a note of this particular case, and I will take occasion to communicate with my correspondent later on, with regard to the changed conditions.


Frank Oliver: What is the rule of the minister's department in regard to interference by agents in politics, or is there any rule?


William James Roche: There is no different rule in the Indian Department from any other department. The hon. gentleman is aware of the rule laid down by Parliament that officials of the Government', whether they are Indian agents or others, in the employ or on the pay list, are not to engage actively in politics. No different rule is applied to Indian agents than to other officials. Of course, there may be some/ agents who regard their agency work as a side line, drawing very little salary from the Government, and I presume they consider themselves free citizens, but our agents who devote their whole time to the work of the agency are expected simply to perform their duties as agents.


Frank Oliver: I am somewhat surprised to hear the minister say that there is a rule that there shall be no interference, and that the rule which applies in other departments, applies to this department, because, in the elections held recently in Alberta, one of the homestead inspec-

tors, Ambrose Grey, was a candidate, and ranch inspector George Cloakley, was candidate in another constituency. It is true that Mr. Grey had resigned a few days before the election. Mr. Cloakey resigned, but I am not sure whether it was before nomination. They held their positions so close to nomination day that they cert-ainly must have been using their positions for the purpose of advantaging themselves in the political contest which took place on the 7th June. It is true they were both defeated by rather large majorities, but certainly it was a very plain instance of officials of the Department of the Interior using their position, while under salary, to advantage themselves, at any rate, they hoped to advantage themselves politically, and, if I am not too far out of order, I may say that another appointee of the Government, Dan Minchen, timber inspector in the Grande Prairie country, is now official candidate of the Conservative party in the constituency of Peace River at the deferred election to be held shortly. Here are three instances in which officers of the Land Department have certainly been taking a very active part in provincial politics. Evidently the rule that my hon. friend says applies to all the departments does not apply to the Indian Department as, apparently, it does to the Department of the Interior.


William James Roche: There has been no rule in the past that would prevent a Government Official from accepting nomination at the hands of a political party, as long as he resigned his Government position. If it was wrong for these gentlemen to have accepted nominations, it is to be noted that they resigned their positions in all cases. To my knowledge, no person occupied a Government position and was at the same time a candidate for election. But, if that is wrong, it is a practice that has been in existence for many years. While the member for Edmonton was Minister of the Interior, two homestead inspectors were candidates in elections in my former constituency, one of whom ran against myself and the other against Mr. Glen Campbell. One of these gentlemen occupied his position right up to the time of nomination, but I did not hear any adverse criticism from any hon. gentlemen opposite. If the gentlemen to whom reference has been made are doing wrong, certainly the same thing was done under the administration of the late Government, and without any protest from hon. gentlemen opposite.


Frank Oliver: It may be just as well to say that one of the gentlemen to whom I refer, who had been a homestead inspector, resigned to become a candidate in the provincial election, was defeated, and .was promptly reappointed by my hon, friend as soon as the election was over. After having used his position during the intervening period of over four years for the purpose of political canvassing, he again becomes a candidate and is again defeated- and I suppose, will again be reappointed. I submit that such a case is simply a scandal:	If my hon. friend thinks that what
took place in former years will justify what is taking place now. I can only say that 1 do not think the public will accept it as justification. Certainly I do not intend to abate my criticism of an action that is absolutely unjustifiable, simply because of previous acts on the part of anybody else. Two wrongs do not make a right. I do not admit it, as a matter of fact, but admitting for the sake of argument that wrong was committed on a previous occasion, I still say that that does not cure the evil, which is that public money is being used for the purpose of maintaining in the field a band of active political agents and canvassers, who, after having suffered defeat at the polls, may be reappointed to their positions, as they, no doubt, expect to be reappointed.


William Erskine Knowles: I should think that there is a distinction between the case mentioned by the minister and the case referred to by the member for Edmonton. In this case evidently the political aspirant in Alberta was acting in conjunction with the minister. The minister was probably aware of the purpose of the man's resignation, but he does not say that he will not continue to play the game by reappointing that man. Unless the minister assures us that he is not going to reappoint him he will have to stand convicted of acting in harmony with this manipulator and of being a confederate -I say it not offensively-with him in what we consider to be very improper procedure. The case in question, therefore, is very different from the case the minister has mentioned.


William James Roche: Can you answer for the case that I quoted.


William Erskine Knowles: I would have to be convinced that in the other case the then Minister of the Interior had knowledge as to the reason for the resignation before I would consider the cases analogous. Anyway, if any minister has an understanding with an employee that the employee mav

resign the day before nomination, and that if at the election seven days afterwards he is defeated, the minister will re-appoint him, that minister is not using good judgment and should be criticised. If the minister says that he disapproves of that procedure, then we shall know where he stands in the matter. It is of no use to say that such and such a thing was done previously. If I understand the minister aright, his statement is that he has full knowledge of all the circumstances connected with these cases which the member for Edmonton-to our surprise, but not to the surprise of the minister-has brought to the attention of the committee. The minister is well informed in the matter, explains the circumstances and attempts to justify them, and, so far as we know, proposes to re-appoint these men. I think that the minister should be in a position to tell us that he had not knowledge that the men were resigning for the purpose in question, that he was not co-operating with them, and that he will not under any circumstances re-appoint them to their positions.


Mr. EOCHE:: The hon. gentleman has recently taken a very virtuous turn. I did not know	anything	aboutthese gentlemen having	accepted nominations until their	resignations	camein, except in one	instance.	When
in that case it was brought to my attention that one of my homestead inspectors had accepted a nomination and had not sent in his resignation. I wired him to send it in. I had no knowledge whatever of these candidates being in the field until their resignations came to the department. As to whether these gentlemen intend to apply for reappointment, I know nothing whatever. They may not have any such intention, but when the application comes in, that will be the time for me to say what I shall do. But it is strange that in a parallel case which occurred under the Administration of hon. gentlemen opposite, where a homestead inspector who remained in the field canvassing up to the date of nomination, resigned his position, suffered defeat and was promptly reappointed to his position, no fault was found by hon. gentlemen on the other side. I am not saying that it was so very wrong. At any rate, the hon. gentleman has not pointed out any gross abuse that has arisen out of the candidature of any of these men who resigned their positions, who have been defeated, and concerning whose future intentions I know nothing whatever.


William Erskine Knowles: The minister 6ays that I have suddenly become virtuous; he is quite unwarranted in making that assertion. The minister has given us information which he withheld in the first instance, and for which I now give him credit. He did not tell us that he disapproved of a homestead inspector being a candidate and at the same time retaining his position. The member for Edmonton raised that question, but the minister did not say what he was afterwards good enough to tell me- that as soon as he learned that one of the men had been nominated by a political party and had not resigned, he wired him for his resignation. It was in the absence of that information that I made the remark that I did. I have no apology to make for doing so, but in fairness to the minister I say frankly that that eliminates the first part of my criticism. The minister cannot be said to be co-operating with these men at any stage of the game if he had no knowledge as to the purpose of their resignations. But I do say that the minister should assure us that he will not co-operate in the matter by Teappointing these men. It is a brazen thing that a man should become a political candidate, Temain in the public employ as long as he possibly can, and then be reappointed when he is defeated. I say that this should not happen, I care not what any other minister ever did. Other ministers stand on their own reputations and their own records. To reappoint men under such circumstances as these would certainly 'be against public policy. But the Lands Department is administered so viciously and violently along partisan lines that it is scarcely worth our while going into the many things that we might have occasion to refer to.
In the by-election that occurred in Moose-jaw county when the Hon. J. A. Sheppard was appealing to that riding after he had resigned his seat because his name wa4 connected with some of the disclosures in the Saskatchewan commission, that district was alive with his employees; in fact, in some of the small villages you could not get a 'bed at night, because of the number of men pretending to be collecting for seed grain and relief in those places, but really collecting votes. If you put a question on the Order Paper, you do not get an answer and you become discouraged. I should like to have the diaries of those seed grain and relief collectors who were in that county during that election. I could take the minister to a small place called Spring Valley and other stations on

the 'Canadian Northern railway between Avonlea and Gravelbourg where there were four or five of his collectors frightening the people out of their lives toy stating that if they voted against the Conservative candidate everything would he taken away from them and their liens collected, and promising them everything in their favour if they would vote for the Conservative candidate. If their diaries contain a true account of their doings, the minister will find that my statements are correct. Do those collectors keep diaries of what they do?
Mr. ROCHE':	The hon. gentleman is
speaking of men working in connection with the seed grain accounts?


William Erskine Knowles: And relief.


William James Roche: When did this by-election take place?


William Erskine Knowles: Last fall.


William James Roche: Just at the time the collectors were out on the road?


William Erskine Knowles: Yes.


William Roche: And because a collector
showed his'nose in a constituency where there was a by-election, the hon. gentleman jumps on the department for allowing a homestead inspector to go into that county during a by-election to collect seed grain accounts.


William Erskine Knowles: What a statesmanlike answer to what I have said.


William James Roche: The system that we had adopted a year ago last winter by means of which we were to collect through the elevator companies was not a success, and therefore last summer we opened an office in Moosejaw and established a chief inspector of land agencies there who engaged a staff, largely utilizing the existing staff of homestead inspectors, in order to keep down expense. These men were alloted certain districts, and before there was any thought of a by-election in Moosejaw, they were instructed to collect seed grain personally from the farmers who had got seed grain relief and had failed to pay within the time promised, and no doubt these men were doing certain collections in Moose-jaw county, because there'was a very large amount put out in Moosejaw during 1915. I am not in a position to say whether those men kept diaries that tney sent into the department as to what they did from day to day; in fact I would not be surprised if they did not keep diaries, although in their ordinary work as homestead inspec-

tors they do keep diaries. I will make inquiries in regard to that.


William Erskine Knowles: The minister has surely misunderstood what I said. I told him what I thought about the men who had camped in Moosejaw county in order to intimidate the farmers, and the minister says that the Government has lent so much money there and tries to put me in the position of saying that the money should not be collected. I did not say that at all. The money is lent and is repayable and will be repaid. I did not object to any one representing the Government putting his nose into the Moosejaw district; I objected to these men interfering in the by-election. I was speaking about the introduction of petty politics under the guise of those men doing their work in their capacity of collectors. I am not criticising the system of collection at present; I may have something to say about that at the proper time. It is necessary to collect that money, and the minister is making a defence out of the fact that the money should be collected. My point was that the men who should have been busy collecting that money in the proper way were all centralized at one pivotal point, namely, the Moosejaw county seat, whence they could intimidate the farmers of the district into voting for the Conservative candidate.


Mr. DOHERTY:: We will take up the Post Office Estimates.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: As the Post Office Estimates have not been brought up before, the minister cannot take them up on a Thursday. Where is the regular Postmaster General? I understand he is in Ottawa, and if so, why should he not be here?


Charles Joseph Doherty: The Postmaster General is at present on active military service. I am the acting Postmaster General, and I do not know that the hon. member is in order to question my right to introduce these Estimates.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: It is not in order to take up any Estimates on Thursdays or Fridays unless they have been begun on a Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday.


Charles Joseph Doherty: The Estimates of the Post Office Department have been taken up and, as regards the Inside Service, have been passed, so that I am quite within the rule. I am only proceeding to continue to deal with Estimates already begun.


George Perry Graham: It was distinctly understood that, when the Estimates were allowed

to be taken up, it was not to be held that they had been taken up under the rule. Before the long adjournment we allowed certain Estimates to go through on the understanding that no minister would claim that his Estimates had been taken up under the rule.


Charles Joseph Doherty: My information from
the deputy minister is not that merely one-fourth of the Estimates which were passed, as I understand it, under the arrangement, have been passed, but that the entirety of the Estimates for the Inside Service of the Department have already been passed. If what the hon. member says is correct, I, of course, do not want to break any understanding that has been arrived at, but my information is that with the exception of this one Estimate, the Post Office Estimates have all been passed:


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: If the minister will . iook at Hansard of February 1 at page 353, he will find that the statement of my hon. friend from -South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) is verified. The report reads:
Supply-Interim Vote.
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rainville in the chair.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier:	We will not go into
any particular estimates, hut we will give you what you want; we will give you a quarter of the total amount in these estimates.
Sir George Foster:	They are just the same
as the usual estimates.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier :	Ves.
Sir George Foster:	We have usually put
through the vote for civil government.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier:	I have no objection to
your putting through the estimates that you want to put through, but you know there is a rule that on Thursday and Friday the Speaker leaves the chair without any motion, and the House can only take up such Supply as is to be taken into consideration. If we were to pass all the estimates to-day, when we begin after the adjournment we could not take up any of the estimates upon any day, and therefore we cannot consent to that. But if it is understood that the rule will not apply, then we will pass the estimates.
Sir George Foster:	I think that can easily
be understood on both sides of the House.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier:	All right; go on.


Charles Joseph Doherty: If that is all that was done, I do not claim that these Estimates were begun, but my information-and I have sent to make quite sure-is that [DOT] all the Post Office Estimates for the Inside Service have already been passed, and that there remains but the Outside Service. If that be correct, it means that these Estimates have been proceeded with otherwise than under that arrangement. Of course, if any information is shown to be mistaken,
I do not want to insist upon going on with these Estimates.


George Perry Graham: If no Post Office Estimates have been put through since the two months' adjournment the minister would not be in order in going on with these Estimates, and my recollection is that no Post Office Estimates have been put through since the adjournment. Certain Estimates were put through before the adjournment to enable the Prime Minister to go to England, on the distinct understanding that no advantage would be taken of that technical violation of the rule.


Charles Joseph Doherty: All I can say is that
the officer tells me he understands that the whole of the Inside Service Estimates were put through one evening by the Minister of Finance. I cannot undertake myself to say positively whether that was so or not, and if objection is taken I suppose I shall have to yield to it.


George Perry Graham: The members of the
House have certain rights in regard to moving resolutions on going into Committee of Supply, and we shall be deprived of one opportunity of moving a resolution on the motion to go into Supply if the minister goes on with these Estimates to-night. The whole object of the new rule was to give members an opportunity to move a resolution on the motion for Supply. My recollection is that the Post Office Estimates have not been before the committee, technically speaking, and consequently they cannot be taken automatically on a Thursday or Friday.


Charles Joseph Doherty: In the Votes and Proceedings of the 20th of April it appears that Post Office Estimates were passed as follows: Salaries $842,820, Contingencies $125,000. That seems to confirm what the officer told me. I am not invoking the fact that before the two months' adjournment
10 p.m. one-quarter of the Estimates were passed.


George Perry Graham: The estimates the minister has quoted were .for civil government.


Charles Joseph Doherty: Yes, but not on the occasion to which my hon. friend has referred.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The 20th of April
was on a Friday.


Charles Joseph Doherty: The question is, have
these Estimates been taken up? I understand that if they were taken up we have a right to go on, and they must have been

taken up because on that day the committee consented to go on with them.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: On the motion of
Sir Thomas White for Committee of Supply on April 20, Sir Wilfrid Laurier said:
I do not object to the House going into Committee of Supply. I understand that we are to take up the Civil Government Estimates, but this will not interfere with rule 17 (c) which requires that the Estimates of any department shall be first taken up on a day other than Friday.


George Perry Graham: That was the very day.
It has been admitted, I think, by both sides of the House that civil government form one Estimate and the regular Estimates another, for the purpose of this rule in Tegard to going into Supply. The taking up of Civil Government Estimates does not mean, technically speaking, that we are going into Supply on the General Estimates. I think the Prime Minister and the leader of the Opposition have agreed as to that on several occasions.


Charles Joseph Doherty: If there is any objection to our proceeding with these Estimates to-night I have no desire to go on with them. I have no desire to violate any understanding.


George Perry Graham: It is a little more than an understanding. The leader of the Opposition called attention to the rule on that occasion.


Charles Joseph Doherty: Well, then, I have no desire to 'break any rule. Unless, however, there is some objection other than the formal one I shall be glad to go on.


George Perry Graham: The objection I have is this: Members of Parliament not on this side alone, but on the other side also, were protected by the new rule in their privilege of presenting a resolution on going into Supply. If we go on with these Estimates we shall be depriving ourselves of one opportunity of making such a resolution, and we have not many opportunities left.


Charles Joseph Doherty: If the hon. member does not see his way to withdraw his objection I shall have to acquiesce.


Charles Marcil: In justice to the Postmaster General, would the minister inform the House as to his exact position at the present time? Those who read the Montreal papers have seen that the Postmaster General offered his resignation to the Prime Minister, but it was not accepted. Then the Hon. Mr. Blondin undertook, with General Les-sard, to raise a regiment in Quebec, and met with substantial success all through

the province. When conscription was adopted by the Cabinet we were told that Hon. Mr. Blondin would discontinue his recruiting efforts. The papers now announce that he is coming back to Ottawa to take over his former department and to be Acting Secretary of State. I think it is in the public interest, and only doing justice to the Postmaster General that the House should know exactly what is his position.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I do not know that 1 should be in order in answering my hon. friend. If I am not entitled to proceed with my Estimates there is nothing before the committee. If it is not in order for me to answer questions, I do not see how it is in order for hon. gentlemen to ask me questions. However, I have no objection to stating that the Hon. Mr. Blondin is still on service, and the fact of my being here as Acting Postmaster General indicates that the newspaper report that he had returned to resume his duties as Postmaster General is incorrect.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Doherty, the House adjourned at 10.15 p.m.
Friday, June 15, 1917.