1917-06-12

FIRST READING OF SENATE BILLS.

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Bill No. 76, for the relief of George Walter * Sherald Garrett.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 77, for the relief of Gertrude Ellen Beal.-Mr. Northrup.
Bill No. 78, for the relief of Donald George Whihley.-Mr. Fripp.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Right Hon.   S@: Mr. Speaker, I desire to state, in. the absence of the Prime Minister, that Mr. Patenaude has tendered his resignation, and that the correspondence in reference thereto will be laid .on the table of the House as soon as the assent of the Governor General has been obtained.



APPOINTMENT OF FUEL CONTROLLER.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: I desire to lay on the table of the - House an Order in Council passed on the 8th of June, 1917, constituting a controller of fuel for the Dominion of Canada.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: Who is the controller?


George Eulas Foster: Mr. C. A.
Magrath. The order in Council is as follows:
The Committee of the Privy Cunoil have had- before them a report dated 8th June, 1917, from the Minister of Trade and Commerce, submitting the following observations on the coal situation in Canada:-
Last winter' very considerable difficulty and hardship were experienced owing to shortage of supplies and congestion of transport, resulting in increased prices to consumers, serious temporary curtailment of production in factories, and much discomfort and privation in the homes of the poorer classes in towns and cities. These causes bid fair to continue and with increasing force during the present season, and are added to by the scarcity of labour for the mines, the increasing difficulties in transport and the added demand for coal in both the United States and Canada owing to the ever increasing exigencies of the war.
At the present moment the outlook for the coming season gives cause for grave anxiety and calls for prompt and efficient action if subsequent shortage and its consequent privations are to be avoided. The Quebec district, which formerly drew for its needs for railways and factories some 2,000,000 tons of bituminous coal from Nova Scotia mines, cannot estimate on more than 2'00,00'0 tons from that source. Nearly all the prospective output of these mines will be required for local needs, bunkering purposes and the use of the Intercolonial Railway. This transfers the supply of this deficiency to the United States mines, whilst in Middle Canada the demands have to be met, if at all, by drawing upon United States sources.
Here two difficulties are encountered. First, the high price and shortage of supply in the United States mines, caused by extraordinary demands and reduced .output owing to scarcity of labour. The entrance of the United States into the war and the vast preparations necessary 'for the equipment of sea and land forces and the growing needs of the Allies call for vastly increased output of coal and added restraint of export for other than war purposes. In the second place transport by land and water is daily becoming more inadequate compared to the increasing volume of freights to be moved, and freight costs are continually increasing.
In the westerp prairie provinces the supply has been diminished by strikes in some of the mines and in respect to those working the output is restricted by the tendency to neglect putting in orders during the summer season, and consequent failure to haul coal to consuming centres during the slack and favourable season.
The minister represents that it seems, therefore, to be necessary that a competent fuel controller should be appointed:
1.	To examine into the coal situation of eastern and middle Canada from the Atlantic coast to the Rockies.
(a)	As to the probable demands for consumption therein for the coming season.
(b)	As to the output of Canadian coal that can be relied upon towards meeting those demands and what, if any, measures can be adopted to increase this output.
(c)	As to the sources outside of Canada [DOT] from which the deficiency can be provided, and the possibility of obtaining the necessary amount.
(d)	As to the possibility of providing sufficient transport for the carriage of both Canadian and foreign coal from the points of production to distributing points.
(e)	As to the possibility of early and continuous co-operation between producers, carriers and consumers, with a view to economizing and facilitating the needed supply.
2.	That in the course of and in connection with such investigation, he be authorized to confer with and co-ordinate the different interests with a view to ensure so far as possible a sufficient supply of coal for Canadian



REVISED


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requirements during the approaching autumn and winter seasons and from time to time to report and recommend to the Government ways and means for effecting the same.
The minister recommends that Charles A, Magrath be appointed Fuel Controller and be charged with carrying out the purposes outlined in the foregoing memorandum, and that all expenses incurred by him for clerical assistance and travelling and living expenses in connection therewith constitute a charge upon and be paid from the War Appropriation Funds.
The committee concur in the foregoing and submit the same for approval.
OSgd.) Rodolphe Boudreau, Clerk of the Privy Council.

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On the Orders of the Day:
George Eulas Foster: I also desire to lay on the table of the House two Orders in Council of the 11th June, 1917, constituting the Board of Grain Commissioners for Canada. I just desire to say in reference to these Orders in Council that the Government has passed them after consultation and consideration, first, in the interest of Canadian producers of wheat and consumers of flour made therefrom, to regulate and control in an intelligent and reasonable way the price at which wheat shall be sold, and the methods of dealing therein, and the transportation thereof; secondly, to assure for Great Britain and the Allies the total exportable surplus of Canadian wheat and flour at a time of great exigency, from a source which geographically and in regard to the safety and facility for transport, is most available of all overseas countries; thirdly, to act in conjunction and to co-operate with the authorities of the United States who, for similar reasons, are arranging for a like arrangement and control" in that country.


Wilfrid Laurier: In view of
the importance of these Orders in Council, may I suggest that they should be printed forthwith or appear in Hansard or the Votes and Proceedings?


George Eulas Foster: I have no objection to their appearing in Hansard.


Wilfrid Laurier: We shall take them as read and put them on Hansard.


Mr. SPEAKER:: In view of the importance of these Orders in Council, I can see no objection, with the unanimous consent of the House, to their being considered as read and being placed upon Hansard.


Mr. KNOWLES:: Will these gentlemen receive remuneration?


George Eulas Foster: The Orders in Council will give my hon. friend that information, hut I may say that this is an entirely honorary board.


Mr. MACDONALD:: Are any gentlemen from the Maritime Provinces included in the list?


George Eulas Foster: No. The Orders in Council are as follows:
at the government house at



OTTAWA.

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Monday the 11th day of June, 1917.
Present:
His Excellency the Governor General in Council.
Whereas, by reason of war conditions, it is considered necessary to provide means whereby the grain of Canada in excess of domestic requirements may be made available for purchase by or on behalf of His Majesty's Government of the United Kingdom and of the Allied Powers, and that the distribution of domestic requirements be controlled in such manner and under such conditions as will prevent to the utmost possible extent any undue inflation or depreciation of values by speculation, by the hoarding grain supplies, or by any other means;
Therefor His Excellency the Governor General in Council, under and by virtue of the provisions of the War Measures Act, 1911, is pleased to make the following regulations and the same are hereby mode and enacted accordingly :-
1.	The Governor General in Council may appoint a Board to he designated "The Board of Grain Supervisors of Canada" hereinafter called the Board. Such Board shall be honorary and shall consist of not more than twelve (12) members.
2.	The Members of the Board shall be paid travelling and living expenses while actually engaged in the duties of the Board but otherwise shall receive no renumeration.
3.	The Board shall make such inquiries and investigations as from time to time it deems necessary to ascertain what supplies of grain ore no.v available or will be available. The Board shall ascertain the location and ownership of such grain and what transportation end elevator facilities are available in connection therewith, as well as all conditions connected with the marketing and the market price of the same. For the purpose of any inquiry or investigation held by the Board, the Board and the several members thereof shall have all the power of a commissioner acting under part 1 of the Enquiries Act.
4.	The Board shall have power from time to time to fix the price at which grain stored in any elevator may he purchased, and the conditions as to price, destination or otherwise under which grain may he removed from such elevator and may also prescribe what grain shall be sold to millers or milling firms in Canada or elsewhere (hereinafter called "Millers") and what grain shall be sent to the United Kingdom and the Allied powers and it shall be the duty of the Board to issue such orders and take such action as it

deems necessary to facilitate at all times the transportation and delivery of grain in excess of domestic requirements to the United Kingdom and the Allied powers.
(*a) Any price so fixed shall be subject to the approval of the Chairman of the Board.
(b) The Board may from time to time appoint an executive committee of not less than three of its members of whom the Chairman shall be one and may assign to such executive committee any duties or powers within the competence of the Board.
5.	The Board shall have power to receive offers for the purchase of grain from millers and from the Wheat Export Company Limited, or from any other person or body corporate, hereinafter referred to as "Overseas Purchasers" representing or acting for the Government of the United Kingdom or for any of the Allied nations or for any combination of the same, and from time to time to fix the prices at which such grain shall be sold.
6. The Board shall have power to take possession of and sell and deliver to millers or to overseas purchasers at the prices so fixed grain stored in any elevator, and to account and pay over to the owners thereof the proceeds of such sales after deducting all expenses connected with the taking possession, sale and delivery.
7.	The Board shall, as far as possible, and having regard to position and the cost of transportation, fix a uniform price throughout Canada for grain of the same kind quality and grade.
8.	Notwithstanding anything in the Grain Act or in the Railway Act, the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada shall have power to order any railway company to provide cars and other transportation facilities for handling grain and to transport as directed, grain taken possession of or owned by the Board.
9.	Every person shall truthfully and promptly answer any inquiry made by the Board or by any person duly authorized on its behalf about any matter within its powers or duties, whether such inquiry is made verbally, in writing, by telegraph, or in any other way.
10.	In this order "Elevator" means and includes any terminal, country, private, public and hospital elevator, and any elevator licensed by the Board of Grain Commissioners for Canada.
11.	The Board, with the approval of the Governor in Council, may make any regulations it deem§j£iecessary for the purpose of fully and effectively carrying out the objects and provisions of these regulations, and in particular, but without limiting the generality of the foregoing, may make regulations.
(a)	For appointing representatives in different places in Canada for the purpose, from time to time, of making known in such localities the prices for grain fixed and other regulations or directions made by the Board, and for reporting to the Board any violations or any order issued by the Board or any regulations made hereunder, and generally for assisting the Board in the effective discharge of its duties;
(b)	To authorise the engaging of clerks, employees and asistants and the paying of their salaries;
(c)	Creating offences and providing penalties in respect of violations of any order made
143£
by the Board or of any regulation made hereunder.
(Signed) Rodolphe Boudreau.
Certified copy of a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by His Excellency the Governor General on the 11th June, 1917.
The Committee of the Privy Council on the recommendation of the Minister of Trade and Commerce advise that the following persons be appointed members of the Board of Grain Supervisors for Canada, the appointment of which Board was authorized by Order in Council of 5th January, 1917, the first-named to be the Chairman.
Robert Magill of Winnipeg, Man.,
H. W. Wood of Carstairs, Alberta,
Samuel J. Rathwell of Moosejaw, Sask., Thomas A. Crerar of Winnipeg, Man., William L. Best of Ottawa, Ont.,
John Charlie Gage of Winnipeg, Man., William A. Bawlf of Winnipeg, Man., William A. Matheson of Winnipeg, Man.>
Lionel Clarke of Toronto, Ont.,
Joseph Ainey of Montreal, Que.,
James Stewart of Winnipeg, Man.
The Committee further advise on the same recommendation that until the Board shall otherwise determine, seven members of the said Board shall constitute a quorum.
Rodolphe Boudreau,
Clerk of the Privy Council.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. McCOIG:: I would like to draw the attention of the Minister of Militia to a message I have received from the Secretary-Treasurer of the Chatham Branch of the Canadian Patriotic Fund. This is the message:
Private John Titus,-


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Does the hon. member purpose asking a question?


Archibald Blake McCoig: I just want to call the attention of the Minister of Militia to this letter:
Private John Titus, No. 491181, 33rd Battalion, present address, 217 King Street East, Chatham, Ontario, has not received any money since March 20, is still in khaki, a wounded soldier. I wired Ottawa June 1, also have written them, can get no reply as to why this man does not receive his allowance.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order. I respectfully submit to the hon. member that this is a matter which more properly could be submitted by letter, or by a question placed on the Order Paper.



YUKON FLOUR PRICES.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. OLIVER:: May I ask the Minister of Labour, to whom was referred the condition in regard to the prices of flour in the Yukon,

if he has any information to offer the House on that subject?


Mr. CROTHERS:: That has not been referred to any one. I simply wrote the company that takes in most of the supplies to Dawson-I have just forgotten their name-for an answer to the telegram, the substance of which is the same as my hon. friend had yesterday.


Frank Oliver: Might I suggest to the minister that it takes possibly a week or two weeks for a letter to reach Dawson, and I anticipate that the reason for the sending of the telegram was because of urgency.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The place of business of this company is San Francisco, not quite so far away as the Yukon.



LABOUR STRIKES IN WESTERN COAL MINES.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Frank Oliver: Has the Minister of Labour any information with regard to coal strikes in the bituminous mines west of Edmonton?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The Prime Minister received a telegram to-day from one of the companies operating at Jasper Park, stating that the men had ceased work.


Frank Oliver: Might I trespass so far on the rules as to ask the minister to give information to the House at a definite time as to the causes for the men leaving work, the prospects for resumption, and whether the strike includes domestic coal mines or is confined to steam coal mines.	'


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The telegram did not mention domestic or steam coal mines, but set forth that the men had struck over the question of wages, and would accept whatever arrangement was made in District 18.



CIVIL SERVICE ACT AMENDMENT.

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On motion of Sir Thomas White, the House went into Committee on Bill No. 68, to amend the Civil Service Act.
On section 2-persons placed in third class undeT 1908 Act who had passed qualifying examination, etc., eligible for promotion to second class:
Mr. MURPHY:: Might I ask if a distinction is drawn between those who have passed the examination and those who have not?


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: This section applies to those who had prior to the coming into force of the Civil Service Act of 1908 passed the qualifying examination, ot have been appointed under sections 37 or 40 of the Civil Service Act, chapter sixteen of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1906: that is to say, this section applies to those who have passed the qualifying examination or have been appointed on account of technical skill or special training under the provisions of sections 37 and 40 of the former Civil Service Act.


Charles Murphy: Under the present section are those who did not pass such an examination wholly ineligible, or is machinery provided whereby they may become eligible for promotion?


William Thomas White: The only way in which they -could become eligible is by qualifying under the present Civil Service Act of 1908, or by being specially mentioned in the Estimates. In this Act we deal only with those who have passed the qualifying examination, or were otherwise qualified under the legislation in effect before the Civil Service Act of 1908 came into force.


Mr. MARCIL:: Is any provision made for the -comparatively large number of officials who were not required to be qualified before the coming into force of the Act?
SiT THOMAS WHITE:	My hon. friend
will observe that this section refers not only to those who have passed the qualifying examination, but also to those appointed under sections 37 and 40 of the Civil Service Act, by reason of technical knowledge or some special skill which they possessed.


Charles Marcil: I have received a number of communications the substance of which I might give for the benefit of the minister. One of the officials suggests that the annual increase of from $50 to $100 might also apply to those employees who have been at the maximum of subdivision B of the Second Division for not less than three years. This amendment would not in any way interfere with the existing minimum and maximum salaries of the Second Division, but would have the effect of promoting these employees into subdivision A of the Second Division.	'


William Thomas White: We gave that matter very special consideration and came to the conclusion that as we were giving special advantages to the Third Division by increasing the maximum to $1,300, that would be sufficient to meet the case. For instance, any one in the Third Division who

has attained the maximum of $1,200 may now go up to $1,300. If he merited it, he would receive the annual statutory increase until that figure was reached. Then, if he passed the Civil Service examination, he would be eligible for appointment to the Second Division.


Charles Marcil: Those who complain are those who have reached the maximum of $1,600 and have been at that figure for some years. Nothing is done for them, and they ask that they should be promoted to subdivision A of the Second Division. Some men have been at the maximum of $1,600 for four or five years, while the cost of living has been going up all the time.


William Thomas White: I think my hon. friend must be talking about the Second Division.


Charles Marcil: Yes, the man who is getting $1,600.


William Thomas White: He would have to. wait until he was promoted. He is eligible for promotion to Subdivision A without passing an examination. It is a question for the departmental head to consider in each case. The civil servant is not debarred from advancement by inability to take the examination, because when he advances to the Second Division no further examinations are necessary.


Charles Marcil: Sir George Murray in his report recommended that the Third Division should be divided into three subdivisions, but no effect is given to that recommendation. I thought it my duty to bring these matters to the attention of the minister. I am probably better known to some of the officials than are many other members, and I suppose that is why I have been asked to make these representations on their behalf. These people find that they have remained without promotion for seven or eight years, and that, notwithstanding' the increased cost of living, nothing whatever 'has been done for them. Though they have reached the maximum of their class, and may have been at that point for four or five years or more, they get an increase of only $100, and, unless promoted by departmental action, they get nothing more.


William Thomas White: This legislation
is merely to- exempt an official from taking the examination. It has nothing to do with giving him promotion. Whether he is promoted or not would depend upon his ability, and uppn his chief recognizing that ability. We are dealing, in this section,
only with those who qualified for the service prior to 1908, but have not qualified for promotion under the existing legislation.


Charles Marcil: I am sure that the hon. minister does not wish to do injustice to any civil servant, but there have been cases in which civil servants have been recommended for promotion by the chief of the branch, and that recommendation has been set aside by higher authority. There is another point to Which I might call attention while I am on the subject. Under the law a civil servant, after he has been a certain number of years in the service, may be superannuated. But, as to the time when he shall be superannuated he is not given a hearing, nor has he any appeal. One of the oldest employees of the House of Commons, one who, when I was Speaker, was one of the ablest of the staff, learned on the street one day, after forty years of service, that he had been superannuated, though his fellow-members of the staff knew that he was just as competent for his duties then as he had been at any time before. I understand that under the rules of the Indian 'Civil Service, a civil servant who is superannuated has the right to appeal. A provision of that kind, if introduced into our law, would, apply no matter which party happened to be in power. I think that a man who has been a long time in the service should have a protection of that kind. The minister should consider whether this would not be a fair amendment to make.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 3:
3.	Sections twenty-nine and thirty land subsection one of section thirty-two of the said Act are repealed, and the following are substituted therefor:-
"29. In the second division, the minimum and maximum salaries shall be as follows:
In subdivision A, $1,600 to $2,100;
In subdivision B, $1,000 to $1,600.
"30. In the third division the minimum and maximum salaries shall be as follows:
In subdivision A, $1,000 to $1,300;
In subdivision B, $600 to $1,000.
"32. (1) The minimum and miaximum salaries for the positions of messenger, porter, sorter and packer, and for such other positions in the lower grades as are determined by the Governor in Council, shall be $600 and $1,000 respectively, and, unless the official record to be kept as hereinafter provided shows him to be undeserving thereof, there may be given to every person holding such a position an annual increase of fifty dollars until the maximum is reached."
Mr. BOULAY:: I would urge the minister to consider paying higher salaries to those civil servants who are in the Third Division.

If salaries from $1,600 to $2,100 are paid to those in the Second Division on the ground that the amount is needed for the support of their families, I do not see why the man who belongs to the Third Division, and who may have the same family responsibilities, should be paid so little. In view of the high cost of living, I do not see why those in/ Subdivision A of the Third Division should not be paid from $1,000 to $1,500, and those in Subdivision B from $600 to $1,200, with an increase of $100 a year in either case. I am told that those in the Third Division sometimes have qualifications equal with those in the Second Division, and are even doing work of equal importance. If there are any men who need increases in order to support their families certainly they must be those who now are lowest in the Civil Service. A salary of $600, or $700, or $800 for a man-I do not say for a woman, because I am against high salaries for women, though there are many in this House who disagree with me on that point, but I still believe that the salaries paid to women should not increase beyond a certain amount-any such salary for a man with a family to support is certainly not enough. I think the minister should be willing to increase the salaries to the figures I have stated, and I believe that *such an amendment of the Bill should appeal to the sense-of fairness of honourable members of this House.


William Thomas White: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Boulay) will observe that we are fixing the minimum and maximum of the grades. There is nothing to prevent a promotion from Subdivision B to Subdivision A, provided the necessary recommendation is made and agreed to by the minister and the Government. Sir George Murray recommended that the Third Division should be divided into three subdivisions. But here there are only two. In all offices it is customary to have the junior clerks and those who do the less skilled work paid at a less figure than those who are trained and who do more expert work. That is the reason for the subdivision of the division into A and B, with the differences in scale as shown in the Bill.
It is to be pointed out that we get in the service every year a number of untrained, or practically untrained, young women, or maybe young men, who are not really worth more than $500 or $600 a year tp begin with. If they went into a financial or commercial office outside of the Civil Service, they would not receive more than that amount to start with, in fact, in financial offices, 
they start young clerks at a less ampunt than $600 per annum. Nevertheless, on account of the conditions which have prevailed, especially since the outbreak of the war, we have thought that we should give an increase especially in the lower grades of the service, that is to say, in the third division, and we have raised the minimum from $500 tp $600 in that division and also in respect to messengers, packers and sorters. But, we have gone farther than that. We have provided that every one in these two classes may be granted an. increase for the present fiscal year of $100; that is to say a messenger or clerk in the Third Division who is now getting $500 a year would be advanced to $600 a year, which is the minimum in each of the classes now, and in addition he would receive this year $100, if worthy of it, and the statutory increase as well. In some cases there will be an advance from $500 for the fiscal year to $750, which is a very substantial increase, being fifty per cent over the amount at present paid. I am inclined to think that the measure deals fairly and justly with the situation which my hon. friend has in view, namely, the high cost of living and its bearing upon the salaries especially of the lower grades up to $1,000. We were more interested in these than in those above $1,000 because the pinch comes in respect to the lower grades. On the whole, I am hopeful that this will meet the conditions that exist to-day fairly satisfactorily.


Herménégilde Boulay: Why not put it up to
$1,200? I see no reason why, because every member of this House knows that under conditions which are prevailing to-day, it is impossible for a man tp support a family on less than $1,000 a year.


William Thomas White: Does my hon.
friend suggest that instead of the minimum of $600 we should fix the minimum at $1,000.


Herménégilde Boulay: No, it would be all right to start at $600 but you should increase it by $100 a year and the increase should be made statutpry and not subject to the recommendation of the deputy minister or the chief of a branch because sometimes the poor fellows may not get it at all. Then, as it is now, they would only increase at the rate of $50 a year. If they had the ex-pectatipn of being able to go to $1,200, it would encourage them to stay in the service and perform their duties faithfully. My hon. friend the Minister of Finance said that those in the Third Division were not as highly qualified as those in the

Second Division. If I am not mistaken men require to be well qualified before they are admitted to the Third Division. I see by an examination paper .set for admission to the third division that some very hard questions are put and it requires considerable ability to pass the examination for admission to this division. Those who are admitted are pretty well qualified to do any kind of work in the department. It may be that, with regard to some kinds of work, they may require a certain amount of practice and instruction before they become proficient, but on the whole they must have more than ordinary qualifications to secure admission to this division. I think it would be nothing but fair to hold out to them the hope that they might go to $1,200 by increases of $100 yearly without reference to the recommendation of the deputy head or head of the branch. If they are subjected to this condition there may be half of them left aside each year, if t'he chief of the branch does not want them increased but they will have to support their families and live just the same as those who have been fortunate enough to secure an increase in their salaries.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: My hon. friend from
Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) has stated very clearly the case for the lower grades in the Inside Service and I can only second his remarks. As regards the salaries of $500 or $600 paid to messengers in the Inside Service, I would appeal to my hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) to seriously consider the position of these men. I have received a batch of letters from mostly all the messengers in Ottawa and I believe they present a fair case. Really, with the cost of living as it is in Ottawa to-day, a man having a family of two or three children cannot possibly face the conditions of life. I have here some figures which were published in one of the papers of this city as to the increase in the cost of living showing how the family budget has soared within the past four years. This statement is based on statistics collected by the Department of Labour and it is based on the average prices in about sixty cities in Canada. In April, 1914, the family budget was $7.51 per week while in April of this year it had risen to $10.77 and with the addition of coal, wood, lighting and rent, the total reached $17.34 per week. The price of commodities has soared to that figure. Everybody in this House knows that. Therefore, as His Majesty's Government must be carried on, the Government,
without being unduly generous, should at least be fairly liberal. I am not one of those who say that because a man is in the Civil Service, having chosen to enter it, he should receive privileged treatment. But, as you are carrying on His Majesty's Government, it is only natural to expect that you will deal fairly and generously with the employees of the Government. With reference to this question of the salaries in the Inside Service, I appeal on behalf of the man who is at the foot of the ladder; I am not speaking for those in. the higher grades; they can well take care of themselves. Some years ago my hon. friend the Minister of Finance introduced, or promised to introduce, a Bill to deal with the Civil Service and I told him that he should not confine himself to the Inside Service but that he .should have some regard to the Outside Service. The host of Government employees who have congregated in the city of Ottawa and who are employed in the large public buildings should not alone be considered. You have in every city, town and hamlet of the Dominion faithful employees of His Majesty's Government. I must give due credit to the hon. Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) for, in his recent interview with representatives of labour, promising to deal generously with the employees of his department in the Outside Service and I think he has dealt with them quite generously and liberally. I also approve of his action in promising that he would give preference to returned soldiers.
I take the Post Office Department because I am more familiaT with that department than with any other. The misfortune of the Post Office Department .since 1911 has been that its principal officer, the Postmaster General, has been so often changed that the poor sorters and the poor railway mail clerks have been completely forgotten. Let us hope that in the near future there will be more permanency in. that department, and that its employees will be looked after in a proper way. I again appeal to my hon. friend, and I say to him that he should not confine his efforts to deal fairly with the Civil Service to the Inside Service only, but should extend those efforts, to the Outside Civil Service.
Let me read the petition which undoubtedly was sent to other members of the House by the railway mail clerks who have been clamouring for the last five or six years for an increase of salary. This memorial was sent to my hon. friend the ex-

Secretary of State, the Hon. Mr. Patenaude. It was addressed to him ae Postmaster General, as he was simply locum tenens in the Post Office Department. It is dated April 25 and is as follows:
"Hon. E. L. Patenaude,
Postmaster General, Ottawa.
Honourable Sir,-
- At your request, we are here representative of the Railway Mail Clerks operating railway postal routes east of Sudbury, nine divisions, totalling (approximately eight hundred clerks, to lay before you our claims to have the Provisional Allowance, an allowance long enjoyed by our western brethren, extended to the clerks of the eastern divisions.
The necessity of immediate assistance is indeed pressing, owing to the fact that living conditions have increased so much in the past few years, so much thiat we who are of fixed salaries find them inadequate to support us in comfort, indeed if present conditions continue living will fast become burdensome. All wage-earners in commercial life have had their salaries (adjusted from time to time to meet these conditions. In proof I will quote you a few necessities taken from the February issue of the Labour Gazette, published by the Department of Labour for the provinces of Eastern Canada. Food stuffs have increased since 1910 51 per cent., light and fuel 21 per cent., clothing 80 per cent., hotels and restaurants 75 per cent.
We feel th(at in asking for the Provisional Allowance we are not asking for an increase in salary. The clerks of the western divisions have enjoyed this allowance for over thirty years, owing to the excess cost of living over the east. Conditions have changed in the past few years, until at the present time living conditions are on a parity throughout the Dominion.
We feel that we are now $300 behind our brother clerks of the Post Office staff. In 1914 a Bill passed the Commons and Senate raising the Post Office Clerks' annual increment from $50 to $100, after $800 had been reached. A similar Bill unanimously passed the Commons granting Railway Mail Clerks the same consideration. This Bill, unfortunately for us, was rejected by the Senate owing to its being connected with legislation of a contentious nature. The same standard of education is required to enter either branch of the service and it is beyond our powers to imagine why we, who labour longer and under more trying circumstances, are expected to perform our daily duties for so much less remuneration.
In view of these several facts we respectfully ask that the Provisional Allowance of $15 per month be extended to the Railway Mail Clerks who are not at the present time enjoying this consideration; that Bill No. 147 of May 4th, 1914, to amend the Post Office Act be re-introduced and that it be made retroactive ; namely that the annual increase to Railway Mail Clerks be $100 instead of $50, and that the maximum salary be made $1,600. This last clause to be added to the Bill in order that all clerks be benefited.
We have the honour to be, Sir,
Tour obedient servants,
The Committee."
This is the case as presented foy the railway mail clerks. They ask, first, that the 
provisional allowance which is granted to the railway clerks in the western divisions 'be made applicable also to the eastern di-visione, and I think that they are absolutely justified in this request. Second, they ask that the Bill giving them a better emolument, which was introduced in 1914, and which was withdrawn because it was connected with something of a contentious nature to which the Senate objected, be reenacted, with a further suggestion that a clause be added giving a maximum .salary of $1,600. The railway mail clerks of Canada perform a most valuable and a most dangerous duty, and as a result of the danger connected' with their constant travels from one end of the country to the other during the cold weather of winter, their health is more often impaired than that of the every day officer in any department. The medical men in the House will bear ime^ out in the statement that they are obliged to carry insurance policies, which, of course, everybody should have.


Mr. EDWARDS:: At a higher premium.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Of course, yes. For those considerations, I plead with the Minister of Finance to kindly consider the case of the railway mail clerks. Not only the railway mail clerks, but the clerks in the Post Office, the sorters, the letter carriers and the postmasters in the country, are deserving of further consideration. The additional work which is imposed on the mail carriers on account of the extension of rural mail delivery system should also be taken into consideration. I know that this means -an additional expenditure, and I generally plead for a reduction- in expenditure; but there is a noble expenditure, there is a necessary expenditure, it is expenditure which affects His Majesty's servants. I again ask my hon. friend to enlarge the scope of his Bill and not to restrict it to the Civil Service at Ottawa.
It is a mistake to think that the whole Civil Service is centered here in Ottawa. The 'Civil Service extends from one end of the country to the other, and I daresay that the outside civil servant in the distant hamlet, or vilage of Canada, is obliged to know more and has to take more responsibility than the man in Ottawa who has at hi-s disposal the advice, the experience, the wisdom of his superior officers. In view of the higher cost of living-let me repeat those figures, they are startling, but they are not less true. Foodstuffs have increased since 1910 by 51 per cent; light and fuel, 21 per cent; clothing, 80 -per cent; hotels and

restaurants, 75 per cent, surely the Government ought to take into consideration these facts and figures, and act accordingly.


William Cameron Edwards: I am pleased indeed
to express my concurrence in. the sentiments utteied by the hen. member for Rou-ville (Mr. Lemieux). There is no doubt that at the present time the high cost of living should in fairness be taken into consideration fixing the salaries of those in the Civil Service.
While the farmer has been paying more since the war started for many of the things which are absolutely necessary to the carrying on of his business, he is getting more for his produce. The wage-earner and the labourer have plenty of work at higher wages than formerly. The persons who get no relief are those who receive fixed salaries. Food costs them more than it did before, and they have no other means of providing for their needs than the fixed salary. Consideration should be given to that class of the community. Ottawa is not the only place where foodstuffs are higher than they were before the war, nor is it the only place where men and women are engaged in the Civil Service. I should be the last to say that no consideration should be given to the civil servants in Ottawa. But, applying my remarks to both sides of the House, I think that the reason why more consideration has been and is being given to the Inside Service at Ottawa than to civil servants outside is because several thousand of them in Ottawa have votes and exercise their franchise when elections come on. On the other hand, in a given constituency elsewhere in the Dominion, practically only a few persons who exercise the franchise are engaged in the Civil Service. In all fairness, more consideration should be given to men in the Civil Service, outside of Ottawa.
My hon. friend has referred to the couriers and the country postmasters. Since the inauguration of parcel post, the work of the country postmaster has enormously increased, while his remuneration has not increased proportionately. The burden bears still more heavily upon the couriers, who sign contracts for four years. Four years ago there was no parcel post system. Many of those who had been carrying mail had made a considerable amount of money by carrying parcels at 5, 10 and 15 cents 'each. In this way they added to their salaries; and no doubt they took that into consideration when they made their tender. Then the system of parcel post
was inaugurated, and the couriers are now obliged to carry a much larger number of parcels without any added remuneration. In many cases they have been obliged to use a heavier or larger rig than they formerly used, perhaps using two horses instead of one, thus adding to the expense of carrying on their work without the compensation of increased remuneration. This is absolutely unfair. I brought the matter to the attention of Hon. Mr. Pelletier when he was Postmaster General, and he agreed [DOT]that prevailing conditions were unfair to the couriers and to the country postmasters. The late Hon. Mr. Casgrain also agreed with me in that respect. Nothing, however, has been done in the matter.
I think that more consideration should be given to the railway mail clerks also; I thoroughly agree with what the member for Rouville has said in that regard. The duties of these officials require them
4 p.m. to work during long hours.
Their occupation is considered by the insurance companies to be more or less dangerous, and if they take out insurance they have to pay an extra premium because of the extra risk. These men are not getting the consideration from this Government that they should receive in the matter of their salaries.
The hon. gentleman to my right (Mr. Boulay) has made some remarks with regard to the clerks in the Third Division. Any third class clerk has the right to fit himself for a position in the Second Division. I do not agree with all that my hon. friend has said in regard to these clerks. Opportunities for the advancement of young men and women in our country are plentiful; they need not enter the Civil Service unless they wish. It is in the interest of Canada that men and women who enter the service should take pains thoroughly to qualify themselves for the duties which they are called upon to perform in that service. I am glad that a number of university graduates are entering the service; I would like to see more of them in it. Persons who enter the Third Division should be sufficiently ambitious to fit themselves for the examination of the Second Division and qualify for a higher salary. For this reason I have no fault to find with the salaries set forth in the Bill which apply to this class of the service.
Let me again ask the Government to take into consideration the salaries paid to civil servants outside of Ottawa, and to the claims of the couriers on rural mail routes and of the country postmasters.


Mr. J. A. M. ARMSTRONG:: As one who was unfortunate enough to spend three or four years in the outside Civil Service, I wish to associate myself with the hon. gentlemen who have preceded me in asking that the Government give favourable consideration to any requests in the matter of remuneration made by members of the outside Civil Service. I do not say a word against increases in the inside service; I am quite sure that they are well merited, and if I made any suggestion at all it, would be that the increases should be greater.
I should like to say a word or two on behalf of the railway mail clerks and of the railway mail service generally. Railway mail clerks carry on a very hazardous work, taking their lives in their hands every day. Their pay is not at all commensurate with the work that they perform. They have to have the knowledge of a postmaster; they have to rely entirely upon themselves, having, as the member for Rouville has pointed out, no superior officer from whom they may obtain direction or assistance. I am not in agreement with certain action taken by a former Postmaster General in connection with the qualifications of railway mail clerks. Under the old order of things, a man had to pass a qualifying examination before receiving his permanent appointment. Hon. Mr. Pelletier changed that, and provided that by passing the preliminary examination a man could be permanently appointed to the railway mail service. He would then get his increases up to $1,000, where he would stop until he passed the qualifying examination.
I cannot understand by what process of reasoning one can come to the conclusion that after a man has spent so many years of his life in learning work of that kind, he should stop at the thousand dollar stage until he has learned again many of the things that he forgot after he left the public school.
The hon. member for Frontenac also mentioned the mail carriers, and I would like to say a word or two in their behalf. The whole system of paying mail carriers is wrong, and I would not permit contracts of that kind to be let on tender at all, because there are many cases where a man could be saved from his own foolishness in tenderihg too low. In any constituency in Canada where the Government throws open a small mail contract for local competition, for some reason or another, many people think that a dollar secured from the Gov-

ernment is worth five dollars from any one else, and they will tender far below a reasonable rate. After they receive a contract, the trouble for the member starts; he is immediately deluged with petitions and requests for more remuneration, but unfortunately the law of the land does not permit the Government to give them that. The mail service of Canada should be standardized and so much per mile allowed according to the nature of the country to be travelled-I am speaking now of land travel per mile-so that every man would know, when he started, how much he was going to receive. In that way he would not be subjected to unreasonable competition by some one who might wish to put in a tender for work about which he knows nothing.	. ,
. I also wish to say a word on behalf of a branch of the Railway Mail Service, known as the transfer class. I do not know whether this matter has been brought to the attention of the minister or not, but there is a class of men working in the transfer business at salaries that are a disgrace to this country. Any one going to Toronto between six and eleven o'clock at night will find officers of the Post Office Department hauling heavy trucks of mail from one train to another, working like slaves, for a salary of .$2 a day. No man can possibly live on such a wage, and it is the duty of the Government, as a matter of ordinary humanity, apart altogether from the question of common sense, to see that that branch receive a reasonable wage.


Charles Marcil: On several occasions
deputations of mail carriers in Montreal have waited on me at my residence and have laid before me their grievances and copies of petitions sent to the minister in charge of that department pleading for an increase in salary. The case of the mail carriers, of the hardships they are suffering and of the>
faithful service they give, are well known to every hon. member. In this instance the petition which I received was similar to the one which was forwarded by their confreres in. the city of Toronto with whom they were working in harmony. I promised these men I would say a word in their favour, and I have done so now.


William Thomas White: This is not the only action which the Government is taking or purposes taking with reference to the Civil Service. I explained the other day that this, was an amendment to the Civil Service Act which relates to the In-

side Service at Ottawa, which, for some reason, comes so far as salaries are concerned under the supervision of my department. Take the case of contracts referred to by the hon. members for Fron-tenac (Mr. Edwards) and for North York (Mr. J. A. M. Armstrong). Those can. be dealt with without any change in the existing legislation if, in the estimation of the minister, it is proper for them to be dealt with, and most of the cases which have been drawn to our attention this afternoon in connection with the Outside Service can be dealt with without any change in existing legislation. When the Bill was before the House recently I stated that in the Supplementary Estimates provision would be made for whatever increases were regarded as necessary by the ministers of the several departments in connection with the Outside Service. I drew to the attention of the House that to-day, without any further legislation the Minister of Customs, to take one case, can and does frequently recommend to the Treasury Board an increase of fifty dollars or $100 per year in the case of officials in his department outside of the city of Ottawa, that is to say, in the Outside Service. It is similarly proper for the Postmaster General to provide in his Estimates a lump sum which would he available for the purpose of granting certain increases in his department in the Outside Service. Similarly with regard tG the Outside Service of the Department of Inland Revenue, and also with regard to the Outside Service of the Department of the Interior or the Department of Public Works. All that this legislation does is to amend the Civil Service Act relating to the Inside Service. As I say, it is not the only action which the Government has taken, is taking or purposes taking with respect to the Service as a whole. The reason why I am not attempting to deal with all those is because legislation is not necessary for the most part, and because they are under the jurisdiction of other .ministers. Many of the observations which have been made this afternoon, and which, of course, are quite relevant to the discussion of this Bill-I find no fault m that regard-might be made more usefully when the Estimates of the ministers in question (are under consideration in this House. Then the ministers who are immediately connected will have the views of the members and can take in their Supplementary Esti-imates su.ch action as may be necessary to meet the situation drawn to their attention.


Mr. LALOR:: Although, as the Minister
of Finance has stated, that probably another time than the present would be more opportune for discussing this matter, I cannot allow this opportunity to pass without mentioning one class of civil servants with whom I am particularly well' acquainted. I [DOT]refer to the officers of the border at Fort Erie, Bridgeburg, and Niagara Falls. The salaries that those men are receiving are a disgrace. The immigration officers on the trains, a splendid class of fellows, who put in long hours, intelligent civil servants and good citizens, are working on a salary of 5800 to $850 a year and maintaining their families at the places I have mentioned, (where the cost of living is probably higher than in any other part of Canada. I think in the Immigration Department the salary of $800 or $850 a year is permanent without iany increase, and these -men with the present high cost of living and high rent are having a hard task in trying to maintain their families, and they should receive more money. I am glad the Minister of Customs is in his seat, and I trust ihe may remember the officers, of his department at the boundary line. I believe there is a general feeling on both sides of the House that these civil servants should receive higher salaries than they are receiving at the present time. We hear talk of coalition in Canada at this time. This is a case on which we should have coalition; we should .all agree that there be no criticism in future as to increased expenditure for salaries in the departments, and that we .should give these men higher salaries in order that they may live in comfoTt.
Mr. VERViILLE: Every one admits that it is necessary that salaries should be increased because the cost of living is increasing. It matters very little how much you give a man to live on; the question is how much he- can buy with that money. The Minister of Finance .should take .steps to check the present increase in the cost of living, and then perhaps the salaries he may give some of the officials will be worth while. Otherwise, in two or three months from now those increases that he may grant will make no difference to the recipients, because the rise in prices will be greater than the increase in salary. The remedy, I believe, lies in preventing an increase in the cost of living, and I would ask the minister to look at that end of the line as well as increasing the salaries. He should certainly take into account the high cost of

*Jiving when providing for the salary increases.


Mr. DEVLIN:: There is considerable
anxiety on the part of a number of employees of the Inside Service relative to subsection 30. It will not benefit, for instance, those who have not passed any qualifying examination, and it appears there are quite a number of employees in this class. Perhaps the minister would make a statement clearing the matter up.


William Thomas White: I stated some time ago in reply to my hon. friend fron) Bona-venture that the maximum of the Third Division has been increased by $100. Any employee in that class, if thought worthy of an increase, can go up to $1,300 by annual increases of $50.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Even if he has not passed any qualifying examination?


William Thomas White: Yes, provided he is in that division. In this Act we are not exempting from qualification those who had not passed a qualifying examination previous to the Act of 1908, or were not otherwise qualified under the legislation of that day. We have thought it proper, however, to exenapt from the necessity of taking an academic examination those who were qualified under the Civil Service Act of 1908. We did not feel warranted in going further than that. If there are any in the Third Division who were in that division prior to the coming into force of the present Act, and who have not passed the qualifying examination or were not otherwise qualified under the legislation of that day, the only way in which they can qualify for promotion to the Second Division is by taking the examination provided for under the existing Civil Service Act, or by being specially named in the Estimates. I could imagine a situation-I have no particular case in view-in which it might be impossible for some excellent clerk to pass the examination qualifying him for the Second Division, and where it might be proper for the minister to name him in the Estimates; in. other words, to place him in the Second Division by naming him. In that case clerk would not have to pass an academic examination. Objections might perhaps be urged to that course. I have no particular case in mind, but it seems to me there might possibly be cases in which this might fairly be done.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: I have no doubt the minister is aware that a number of returhed soldiers are greatly concerned as to the exact position they would occupy in the 	,
service if they were taken into it. Would a returned soldier who had previously been in the Civil Service, and who had been on active service at the front for two years, be put at the minimum of his class?


William Thomas White: Speaking from memory, I think he would be subject to the present Civil Service Act; there may be an Order in Council relating to the matter, 'but I do not recall it at the present time. Of course, it would be open to the minister to name such an official at a certain salary, but I do not see how the soldier could be exempt from the provisions of the Civil Service Act relating to entrance to the service, unless he was specially named. If the returned soldier were qualified to enter the [DOT]Second Division he could enter it, of course; but if he was not qualified I should say that he would start at the minimum provided by the existing legislation. I am not quite positive about that, because some Orders in 'Council have been passed relating to returned soldiers, but that is my opinion offhand.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: There is a feeling among the returned soldiers that the men who have been-on active service at the front for two years should be allowed the yearly increase given to the men at home. For instance, if a soldier had spent two years at the front and in the ordinary course of events would have received a yearly increase of $50, he should he on the same footing with those who have remained at home and should be given an increase of $100.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: I am in sympathy with practically everything that has been said in connection with this Bill. As I understand it, though there may be members of the Outside Service in the city of Ottawa, the bulk of the Outside Service are outside of this city.


Rodolphe Lemieux: There are outside civil servants in the city of Ottawa; for instance, officers in the Post Office and the Customs Departments.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Yes, but when speaking of the Outside Service we are thinking more of those outside the city of Ottawa. It was of these employees that the hon. member for Frontenac was speaking, when he said, whether rightly or wrongly, that not so many votes were affected. Personally, I think the Outside Service outside the city of Ottawa should receive a little more attention than the Outside or Inside Service in the city of Ottawa. I have been going around the different departments for a good

*many years, and what I am going to say does not apply merely to this Government, because I was a member of the House for a long time during the late Administration. There is no doubt in my mind that the Inside Service at Ottawa is over-manned. There are undoubtedly men and women clerks in the different departments at Ottawa who are overworked and have to return to the office in the evening; they are not being paid the salary they should receive. I have always taken the ground that any man who works, whether he be labourer or clerk, should receive good wages; that has been a principle with me in my own business. But I do think that this matter of getting into the different departments in the city of Ottawa is overdone. There are boys and girls here who are in the service rather for recreation and to have a little pocket money-and in saying that I think I know exactly what I am talking about. Now, I want it clearly understood that I am not including in my remarks any one who is necessary to the efficiency of the service, but it is a very nice thing to be in the service and get your pay every month. I am confident that if there were a weeding out of those who watch for five o'clock to come, there would be quite a reduction in the Inside Service here.
Now, I wish to refer to the Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid). He is a good fellow. In my constituency I have about six or seven customs officers. We have to have them. They get $800 a year. Nearly every one of them has no other source of income and is expected to live on that $800. It is impossible; it cannot be done. Yet I have been very unsuccessful in my applications to the Minister of Customs to have the salaries of these men increased. They should be increased. It may ibe said that in some cases these officers are not necessary. That may be true in some towns; but when there are only six customs officers in a constituency as large as mine, I do not think the service can be said to be overmanned. These men have been paid $800 a year as long as I have known anything about it, and there has been no change in spite of the increased cost of living.
Now, I wish to say a word about the carriers of the rural mail. In Ontario and Quebec, and also I presume, in the Maritime Provinces, mral mail has been a success.	I am a great advocate of the 'rural mail system. What we are trying to do as representatives of the people is to make the country a place in which people will wish to dwell.
We have been talking for many years about " back to the farm," and I am a great believer in that doctrine; the farm is a good place, and it is our duty to make the farm as attractive as possible. There are several things that have aided very much in making country life more attractive. One is the telephone, and another is the rural mail. People to-day, especially in these stirring times, are intensely interested in getting a daily paper and in getting the mail. But what has been my experience in trying to establish rural mail routes? I have established very few. Why? The farmers are quite willing to supply the boxes-that is a matter of about $4 each and it is about all they are asked to supply. Then comes the question of carrying the mail, and when it comes to that I find myself up against the real thing. I cannot get men to take that position-and that is remarkable enough, when you think of it; you can't get men to take a Government job.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Even with tenders?


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: With tenders, or without tenders. I do not know the exact figure, but there is a certain percentage given to the carriers in the western provinces in addition to what is paid in the provinces that are more thickly settled. But I cannot get men to carry the mail throughout the country; and that is why there are in my constituency so few rural mail routes. Some one suggested to-day what I thought was a good idea, that this should not be by tender, but that a proper scale should be fixed. In eastern Canada your dwellings are more along certain lines and are close together, but where, as in my constituency, you have men living on a half-section or a quarter-section, the rural mail delivery is more difficult.
So, there are two classes of men in my constituency to whom the Government is not paying living wages to-day; one class is made up of the customs officers, and the other of the man carrying the rural mail. I do not know whether this is the right time under the rules for this discussion, but it is a good time for me to get in my kick about these people. I want the Government to take these men into consideration and give them what they deserve.


Mr. FRIPP:: My attention has been called to what appears to be an injustice under this measure to a certain class in the Third Division. The committee is aware that the object of the legislation is to improve the situation of those in the lower

grades, and to give them a living wage. When the Bill was under consideration the other day, I was under the impression, and I think the committee was also, that the majority in the Third Division would be benefited by section 3. But the benefits of that section are confined entirely to those who have passed the qualifying examination before 1908. I am astonished to find that there are 450 men in the Third Division who were not called upon to pass the qualifying examination, and who will be outside the scope of this Bill. They have been in their several departments for nine years or more, and are just as well qualified for departmental work as those who have passed the qualifying examination. It seems to me we ought to make all the men in the Third Division who are certified to by the deputy minister eligible for advancement to the Second Division, and not confine it to those who had passed the qualifying examination. Otherwise these men, many of whom are married, will be left without any redress under the provisions of the Bill. There is a further class in the Third Division to which I wish to refer. Under section 4 of the Bill any person in receipt of a salary of less than $1,000 may be given an increase of $100 in order to bring him up to $1,000. I am told that there are 392 men in the Third Division who will not benefit by this provision, because they are receiving between $1,000 and $1,200. It does seem to me that less than $1,200 a year for these men, ninety per cent of whom are married, is absolutely inadequate for their livelihood under present conditions.
I would like to have this section include men who are in receipt of salaries up to $1,200, thus giving them the additional $100 from 1st April last. These are two objections to the Bill brought to my notice which I think, are worthy of being brought to the attention' of the committee before the Bill is passed.


Mr. R. B. BENNETT:: I have no desire that any civil servant in Ottawa should receive less than a living wage. I have had reason to ascertain the exact number in the service of the Crown in Ottawa, and I findi that that number is nearly 12,000, and the aggregate annual pay nearly $12,000,000.
I have no hesitation in saying that the service here could be reduced by ten per cent and be much more efficient that it is now. This saving of a million and a half a year to this country, which is now paid to those who render no efficeint service to 
the state, would produce results, I think, that are very much to be * desired.
There are not only too many civil servants in the employ of the Crown in Ottawa but there are too1 many inefficient civil servants in the employ of the Crown. There are too many efficient civil servants in the employ of the Crown outside of Ottawa who are being insufficiently paid. In the city in which I live, and I am not accustomed to taking that as an example, but it illustrates the conditions that prevail in Vestern Canada; I found last year a graduate of Queen's University, a woman who had graduated in Arts with honours who was in the service-of the Crown receiving the magnificent sum of $55 per month in one of the public departments. There are many men and women in western Canada -receiving $50, $55, $60 or $70 per month. I had a letter to-day from a letter carrier who, with his wife and family, is endeavouring to keep the wolf from the door on the magnificent sum of $65 a month. I had another communication yesterday morning from a soldier who has returned from the present war wounded and who is now in the. service of the Crown receiving $75 per month and supporting himself, his wife and family. On every occasion on which I bring these matters to the attention of the responsible ministers, they always point out that we are in the midst of a war, that the Minister of Finance, who is very much burdened with the necessity of providing money to carry on this war,- cannot provide money to meet the demands-the reasonable demands-of the servants of the Crown. If you can find money to inciease the pay of the 12,000 civil servants in the city of Ottawa-all of whom will not receive increases of pay-but if you can find money to pay them a living wage, then I submit that the people who are out in the country living under circumstances much more difficult, where it is more expensive, must be heard and their case must be dealt with. This is what I submit to my hon. friend the Minister of Finance. If he can find money for those who are included in this measure,
I submit that he can find money for the servants employed in the Department of the Interior. If he can find more money to be paid to the members of the Inside Service who are being dealt with here, he can find money to pay the servants in the Department of Customs and the Post Office Department throughout the country and the money can be found by taking the Civil Service in this city, putting it upon an effi-

cient basis, which means that it can be cut down ten per cent, thereby increasing its efficiency and proficiency, and the money thus saved can be used to pay a living wage to those who are working for $50 and $55 per month. That is my opinion and it sets forth what I believe to be the duty	of	the	Government	at thismoment.	I know	of nothing	that isso much calculated to bring the Government into disrepute, to make for bitterness and strife, to create a feeling of animosity against constituted authority and the creation	of	those	socialistic	tendencies that	are	manifesting themselves in
[DOT]the state in an alarming manner, than the absolutely inadequate salaries that are being paid to the servants of the Crown outside [DOT]of this city. I say that after a careful study [DOT]of t'he situation and what I have learned [DOT]in relation to Calgary applies with equal force to other places. I see my hon. friend from Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) in his place now. I was in Edmonton not long since and a number of gentlemen connected with the service of the letter carriers and mail clerks spoke to me and asked me if I would lend my influence, such as it was, in support of my hon. friend from Edomonton in an effort to increase the pay of these men. That is the position as I understood it.
Further, it is my view that in the West we have a peculiar grievance in relation to [DOT]the pay of the members of the Civil Service. The cost of living, according to the [DOT]statement which my hon. friend from Rou-[DOT]ville (Mr. Lemieux) read, has increased [DOT]fifty per cent over what it was a few years ago. In the West there is an increase of [DOT]more than that, and no man with a wife and family in these times can pay rent, pay for the cost of food, educate 'his children and decently clothe them on $55 a month. He cannot do it; it is impossible to do it, and I do ask my hon. friend the Minister of Finance, who has brought in this Bill that affects only the Civil Service in Ottawa, to remember those less fortunate servants of the Crown who are serving in the capacity of clerks in the custom house, mail .sorters or letter carriers, or servants of the Crown in great departments like the Department of the Interior, or in outside work, as some of them are, carrying the mails in country districts, and in country post offices. I would further remind him that after all a living wage for every man and woman who serves the State is, in the judgment of those who have formed an opinion from a caTeful investigation of the subject, one of the surest and best indications of a really advanced state. There can be no decent civilization in the state if men and women are struggling to keep body and soul together, not knowing where the next day's meal is coming from while thinking for the whole people at only $50 or $60 a month. It is impossible. Think of that young lady who gave four years of her life to acquiring an academic education and taking honours at Queen's University working in the Department of the Interior at Calgary for $55 a month. Under these circumstances what inducement is there for anybody to get an education in the State?
It is perfectly absurd.
Another essential is I think that men and women should be treated on an equality in relation to the pay they get, having regard to the service they render. A difficulty that is often met with is that the pay is based on the number of years of service without any regard whatever to efficiency. I find that a man, having worked twelve years in the service, gets a salary that is based upon annual increases, while the man who is giving twice as much service to the State is getting only $600 or $700. There must te payment of salaries on the basis of real merit and work. What commercial institution keeps a man in its employ and pays him a salary because he has been so many years in its service without regard to his work or to what he is worth to that institution? Nobody does that. Would my hon. friend the Minister of Finance when he was manager of the National Trust Company, keep a clerk in his employ, pay him $1,000 a year and increase his pay annually by $50 or $100 altogether regardless of his efficiency while another man who had come into the service and who was of equal ability would only get $700 or $800? I cannot believe that he would. Then, it should not be done in Ottawa any more than in any other place. My hon. friend from Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) quite properly pointed out the reason why. It is important, even in times of war, that we should take stock of the situation, and taking stock of the situation the Minister of Finance and his colleagues should discuss the whole matter, make an adequate survey of the situation and determine the number of men and women that might be dropped from the service because they are inefficient. That is suggestion number one. If he determines how he can cut down the number of people who are working for the Crown because .of inefficiency, he can then determine to what extent he can increase.

the salaries of those who remain having regard to their efficiency and the work they are doing.
I want to tell this House something that was done in this country during the last six months. In a great department in the public service men and women were working together. They were all being paid the same amount-$60 per month. The head of the department said: "I am not satisfied that these people are all worth the same money; therefore, I propose to establish a merit system and I will fix, first of all, what I regard as the minimum amount of work and then I will provide that at the end of the month for an increase in the salaries of my employees based upon the measure of work they have done during the month and the accuracy with which they have done it. Well, the result was that two or three of the employees are still getting the minimum pay but the most of them stimulated by the desire to increase their pay, have shown such proficiency that they are now getting as much as $10 per month more than they were getting at the start. Why cannot that be done in the public service? How do railways deal with their men? They do not pay two men the same salary because they may be working at a particular job. They deal with them on the basis of merit, and I do this afternoon ask the Minister of Finance and his colleagues once more to remember the men and women who live outside of Ottawa and who find themselves dependent upon the salary or wage that the father earns, a wage which is wholly inadequate at this time to keep body and soul together and to clothe the children so that they may attend school in town, village, hamlet or remote country. This state even in war can do nothing better to show that, after all, our every day civilization is in keeping with that for which our men are striving overseas, than by seeing that those who serve the state in a civil capacity are paid a reasonable wage for the work they render to the State, and which, in its way, although not as important, is just as essential as the military service given by our men overseas.


Mr. NICKLE:: 
Herménégilde Boulay: I have listened carefully to the remarks that have been made, and I do not want to annoy the Minister of Finance by my remarks.


William Thomas White: Go ahead, I am glad to hear you.


Herménégilde Boulay: Of course this may not
be exactly the right time to talk about the Outside Service because later there may be some provision, as the minister explained, for that class of employees. I concur in the remarks of those who have spoken in favour of that class. It is certain that they are not paid salaries commensurate with the present high cost of living. I wish particularly to insist upon better treatment of those who are in the lower grades of the Inside Servidh, particularly the Third Division, , subdivision B. I am not of the opinion of my hon. friend from Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) when he says it is very easy for a man of that class to qualify and pass from the Third Division to the Second Division after a certain number of years. I have been all my life a very good scholar, and I think he has been also, yet he would be in great trouble to pass an examination of that kind, and I also-


William Thomas White: Hear, hear.


Herménégilde Boulay: -and go into the Second Class of the Civil Service. When a man has been in the Third Class of the Civil Service and is over thirty years of age, he is in no position to go to work and pursue a new course of study to fit himself for the qualifying examination. So if a man is to spend all his life in Subdivision B of the Third Class I feel that the Government should see its way ' clear to give him a sufficient wage to enable him to support himself and his family. I know men in Ottawa, married men, who are getting $650 a year, and surely they cannot make both ends meet. Some of them tell me that every year they have to borrow. I know these men personally. I know that they do not spend one cent needlessly or extravagantly; there is no waste in their households; nothing is spent in liquor, and yet when they come to the end of the year they are obliged to borrow money. These men are the class whom we must 'carefully look after. I do not want to say anything against the high-class people who are paid high salaries, they are paid enough; they look out for themselves. But I think that the Government and the Minister of Finance
should raise the maximum salary in Subdivision B of the Third Class to $1,200 and give an increase of $100 a year without obliging men to go before the Governor in Council to get it, sometimes to see it refused in case it does not suit the deputy head or the chief of the branch to recommend the increase. These men are worth something or they are worth nothing. If they are no good let us drop them from the service right from the start; but those who are good should be well paid.


Mr. OHABOT:: I think that the Bill to
amend the Civil' Service Act now being considered in committee i-s a fairly generous one. I think that the Minister of Finance is entitled to a great deal of credit for the time and care he has taken with it, especially at this time, when his parliamentary and his national duties must be both numerous and onerous. Speaking for the Civil Service of Ottawa, I think I can say without much exaggeration that it is composed of men and women who are equal to the tasks which they have to perform. They are both energetic and conscientious, and willing to do their duty to the best of their ability. I will admit that there may be cases of inefficiency, but on the whole the Civil Service of Canada, and particularly of Ottawa, is one of which this country has no reason to feel ashamed. I desire to say that what is especially gratifying to me in this Act is the fact that the academic examination prescribed under the Act of 1908 as to qualifying one for promotion from the Third to the Second Division has been done away with, because I always looked upon that examination as a hardship and a cruel measure. I would ask the minister if it would not he possible to repeal in subsection 2 of section 26 the following:-
And who had theretofore passed the qualifying examination.
I think that many men, without passing the qualifying examination, have fitted themselves, by their experience and the acquirement of efficiency in their work, for promotion from the Third to the Second Division. Is it possible to make the statutory increase in the lower grades $100 instead of $50? A man receiving a salary of $600 has to wait eight years before he reaches his maximum. He is, therefore, badly handicapped, especially if the cost of living continues to increase. Is it the intention of the minister to grant the regular statutory increases to men in the service who have gone to the front? I think that when those men come back they should



receive any increases which they would have received had they remained in Canada and performed their duties as civil servants. The least we can do for them is not to let them suffer under any discrimination because they have gone to the front to perform the most patriotic work that a Canadian can be engaged in during this crisjs in our history.


William Thomas White: Those who are on service overseas will receive the statutory increases which they would have received had they remained here. In other words, they will find themselves when they return in at least as good a position as they would have occupied had they remained here and got the advance from year to year. As to whether all those in the Third Division could be rendered eligible for promotion upon the certificate of the deputy, I think not; for the reason that it would practically destroy the basis of the present Civil Service Act. The present Act is based on what is known as the merit system; it provides for examination as qualification for promotion from the Third to the Second Division. The amendment provided in section 2 is designed to remove what was clearly an injustice to those who had passed the qualifying examination under the legislation which existed prior to (the fcoming into effect of the Civil Service Act of 1908. But those who were legislated into that division by the Civil Service Act of 1908 or came in since, came in with their eyes open and subject to all the conditions imposed by that Act, among which was the passing of an examination to qualify for entry into the Second Division. I do not believe it would be wise to destroy the basis of the legislation of 1908. If that legislation is unsound, it should be repealed, buit we should not create an anomalous situation by allowing those who passed no examination either before or since the passing of the Act to be eligible for promotion to the Second Division. By this legislation we are giving decided advantages to those at present in the Third Division, and to messengers, sorters and packers. We had it in mind that those receiving less than $1,000 were especially in need of assistance at this time. To those receiving less than $1,000 we are giving a bonus of $100. In addition, the minimum of each of the classes is advanced from $500 to $600, so that a messenger, sorter or packer or a member of the Third Division who is now receiving $500 will be advanced to $600, and will receive, in addition, a

bonus of $100, together with the annual statutory increase of $50. That is to say, a messenger who is receiving $500
5 p,m. will receive for this year $750, an increase of 50 per cent. Moreover, we have provided for an increase in the maximum from $1,200 to $1,300. Those who have reached the former maximum of $1,200 and cannot qualify for promotion to the Second Diyision, can go on to $1,300, whereas under existing legislation they are stopped at $1,200. We think we have met the situation fairly so far as the Third Division is concerned. In order to do this, a very considerable expenditure is involved. When this matter was under consideration the other day the member for St. John asked for a statement as to the cost of the increases authorized by this legislation. I had a statement prepared to meet his request. I find that the total annual increase in expenditure will be, in round figures, $290,000. That is a very substantial annual increase in respect of the Inside Service at Ottawa. It is not too much, but, at the same time, it is substantial. As 1 said the other day, we must bear in mind the public outside and the salaries which they obtain. In the Third Division a number of young women and young men, some of them not specially trained, many of them stenographers, obtain	larger
salaries than are paid outside. I made it my business in connection with this Bill to make inquiries of some of the leading law firms in Toronto as to the salaries paid to stenographers and clerks. I found, of course, considerable difference in the salaries paid, but I am able to say as a result of my inquiry that the salaries paid stenographers in the Civil Service at Ottawa are equal to if not greater than those paid to stenographers in law offices in the city of Toronto, many of whom work much longer hours than those in the Civil Service. While we desire to be fair to the Civil Service, we must at 'the same tjme bear in mind our duty to the general public. I believe that the public are prepared to pay the members of the Civil Service proper salaries, especially those in the lower grades; but I do not believe that they are prepared to pay them larger salaries than are paid to persons possessing similar qualifications who are engaged outside the Civil Service and who work as hard as, if not harder than, those in the Civil Service.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: The minister was good enough to lay on the Table the Order in Council to which I have referred relating

to the Civil Service. It is dated May 29, 1917, and is as follows:
The Committee of the Privy Council, on the recommendation of the Eight Hon. the Prime Minister, advise that all Orders in Council passed since the outbreak of the war relating to Civil Service pay to civil servants who have already enlisted do have no effect and be void in the case of those members of the Civil Service who join the military forces of Canada either by voluntary enlistment or otherwise from and after the date hereof.
Can the minister inform the committee why a discrimination is made against those who voluntarily enlist after May 29?


William Thomas White: I think that the
reason is obvious. Prior to the date in question, the Prime Minister had announced a measure of compulsory military service. It is to be pointed out that the members of the Civil Service who are liable to military service under that measure have had all this time to enlist, and if they have not enlisted, nor offered to enlist, there would seem to be no good ground why they should be paid their full Civil Service pay if that civil pay exceeds their military pay, as distinct from those outside who will be compelled under the Compulsory Service law to serve at the rate of pay provided for in the military forces. I think I can say as to those members of the Service, who are eligible for military service and who offered to enlist prior to the announcement of the Prime Minister, that the Government would be prepared to deal with them by special Orders in Council, so that they might be put in the position of those who actually enlisted before the declaration of the Prime Minister. I think that would he only fair, because I know of some cases in the Civil Service where officials have desired to enlist, but for some ground of public interest, principally because the service they were rendering was of such a character that their services could not well be dispensed with in the public interest, they have been prevented from enlisting. I do not believe there are many of those cases; but I believe there are some, and I know the Government would be prepared to deal with them on the same basis as those who have enlisted and actually gone forward. But as to those who, during all these three years, being eligible for military service, have not come forward and enlisted, it would seem to me to discriminate in their favour as against the outside public if now, being compelled to enlist, they were given the pay which they have as civil servants and which might be fifty per cent in excess
of or twice as great as the pay of those who are not members of the Civil Service and who enlist under the provisions of this measure.


William Pugsley: I have noticed in the United States that one of the great objects which those administering the law for selective conscription have in view, is to induce those who are drafted to believe that they are not in any way treated as inferior to those who may volunteer. I think that should be the object of the Government in this country. It ought not to be said to any member of the Civil Service that he is degraded in any way or that, simply because he was taken, if this law passes, under a selective conscription, he occupies an inferior position to that which he would have occupied if he had enlisted voluntarily. If this legislation should pass, the Government should strive in every way to make the young men understand that there is no distinction as between the two classes, and that they are not to be treated as inferior to those who have already gone to the front. But this Order in Council is not limited to those who are taken under selective conscription; it is extended to those who may voluntarily enlist subsequent to the 29th of May. It might well be argued that the intention of the Government was to discourage voluntary enlistment prior to the coming into force of the legislation relating to conscription. What the Government is doing in this regard is on a par with what they did with reference to Col. Blondin and General Lessard. Those gentlemen went down to the province of Quebec-very late, I admit. General Lessard is a man who one would have supposed would have been sent very early into that province; he is the man to whom my hon. friend from Bouville (Mr. Lemieux) two years ago recommended should be employed by the Government to go into the province of Quebec, but quite recently he did go to Quebec with the Postmaster General, and the Postmaster General has stated publicly that voluntary enlistment has succeeded very well, and that if the same methods had been pursued earlier in the war, the young men of Quebec would have rallied en masse to the colours. But instead of waiting for word from General Lessard and Col. Blondin, immediately upon the return of the Prime Minister conscription was announced, and those gentlemen immediately stopped recruiting, because apparently Col. Blondin understood that it was not the desire of the Government that voluntary enlistment should proceed any further*

Whatever may be the fate of the Conscription Bill, the Government should not have 'stopped for one single moment in the direction of voluntary enlistment. Every encouragement should be given to our young men in all the provinces, including the young men in the 'Civil Service, voluntarily to enlist, and there are many people in this country who believe that, if the proper encouragement had been given to all our young men to enlist and proper methods been pursued they would have enlisted in very large numbers, and that possibly compulsory service might not have been necessary at all. I for one am very sorry to see the Government, immediately upon the return of the Prime Minister, bring into force this discriminatory Order in Council under which it is proposed to treat the young men in the Civil Service who may enlist subsequent to the 29th of May in a very much less favourable manner than they have treated those who have enlisted prior to that date. The unfortunate result is that tmen in the Civil Service will be divided into three different classes. We shall have one class of enlisted civil servants who receive both their civil pay and their military pay; we shall have another class who will receive their military pay and the difference between their military and theiT civil pay, and then we shall have a third class wrho will receive only their military pay. Another discriminatory result follows. Those Orders in Council which have been passed previously provide that their positions will be available for the enlisted civil servants when they return from the front. That provision has been,wiped avray by this Order in Council. Throughout the country we find that employers of labour have offered to retain their positions for their young men who enlist; many of the largest business houses and many of the banks have done the 'same thing. They do not discriminate; we find no obstacle in the path of enlistment dating from the announcement of this conscription measure; but today as previously during the years since the war has begun, these employers are prepared to treat their young men in the same generous and liberal manner. But this Government says to the young men in its employ who may offer to enlist after the 29th of May:	You will be treated in a
very much less favourable manner than those who have volunteered before; not only will your pay be reduced, but when you return after you have served your country, possibly maimed and 
wounded, you will find your positions filled by young men who have not volunteered for the front, and you will he obliged to seek occupations amongst strangers. I say that is not fair; it is not wise, it is not in the public interest, it is not giving proper encouragement to the young men of the Civil Service who still continue to volunteer for the defence of the flag.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I concur with the remarks which have been made by my hon. friend from St' John, but I rise more for the purpose of directing the minister's attention to a special case. I regret that the Postmaster General is not in his seat, because he might have been able to give me the information which I sought in yaip when his estimates -were before the House just prior to the adjournment for the Prime Minister's visit to England. The Postmaster General, or in his absence the Minister of Customs, had an item passed by the House creating a new Assistant Deputy Postmaster General. Some years ago, when I was in charge of the department, I appointed a young man who had been secretary to Sir William Mulock. He was one of the best officials that the Post Office Department ever had, but as very often happens with the best men in the Civil Service, he accepted a position outside at a better salary, where the intelligence he displayed in the performance of his duties /was better recognized. Then I appointed in his stead a young man who had been my private secretary. He was then Cpptain Verret, one of the best officers in the Canadian Militia, and a member of the Governor General's Fo'ot Guards. At the opening of hostilities he enlisted with an Ottawa regiment, and immediately went overseas and into the trenches. He has been there since the beginning of the war, has been promoted from captain to major, and only the other day I was proud indeed to read in the papers that he had received from the hand of His Majesty the insignia of the Distinguished Service Order. Major Verret is now at the front and there is nobody here to look after his interest in the department. He was certainly a very good official, highly respected and very popular both in the East and in the West, always accessible, and very genial with all the members of the House of Commons who had occasion to do business with the department. Suddenly, in the third year of the war, after exposing his life on several ocf-casions he is much surprised to learn that another Assistant Deputy Postmaster Gen-

eral has been appointed. I do not say that he has been appointed in Major Verret's stead, but I cannot see why anotner Assistant Deputy Postmaster General should have been appointed during Major Verret's absence. I do not begrudge Mr. Fowler his appointment.' I happen to know him. He is a very good official, although he has not had the long experience of Major Verret. I have told him personally: " I know you are an excellent officer. You are spoken of very highly by the public, but I object to Major Verret being treated in such a highhanded way in his absence, after he has served his King and country on the battlefield for over two years." I have been unable to get an explanation, why another Assistant Deputy Postmaster General was appointed; it may have been that he was needed, and if so, I have no objection to the appointment of Mr. Fowler, none whatever. But what I should like to know is this, and I happen to know that the question is agitating the mind of Major Verret on the battlefield. I dare say that everything possible will be done to promote those men in the Civil Service who return from active service at the front; I think everybody will agree that that is their due. But what I am particularly anxious to know is whether Major Verret, on his return, will be promoted in the department if a vacancy occurs, or will the appointment of another Assistant Deputy Postmaster General have spoilt his chances of promotion? Mr. Fowler is a very able officer, but so is Major Verret, and he has been at the front since the beginning of the war. Should a vacancy occur in his absence, or when he returns, will the Government give him credit for the service he has rendered to the state and promote him? I sincerely regret that the Postmaster General is not in his seat. I did not raise this question when his estimates were before the House just before the two months' adjournment, because I did not want to embarrass the Minister of Customs, who had charge of the Post Office Estimated, but now the Minister of Finance is here, perhaps he will give me the assurance that the absence of Major Verret will not prejudice his chances of promotion should a vacancy occur.


William Thomas White: I am sorry I have no information with respect to this matter. I have a rather faint recollection that my hon. friend raised this question some months ago, but as it did not concern my own department, it made no impression upon my mind. I recall, however, that I did make some inquiry about it, rather
casually, and I think I was informed that the appointment my hon. friend refers to was not in the stead of Major Verret. Further than that, I can make no statement, but I would suggest that my hon. friend raise the question where it might more properly be raised-although it was quite proper for him to raise it now-namely, when the Estimates of the Postmaster General are again under consideration.


Rodolphe Lemieux: May we expect the Postmaster General to return to the House? There is a rumour that he is coming back, but has not yet taken his seat because he is occupied elsewhere. If the hon. Minister of Finance can give me assurance on this-point, I will be content.


William Thomas White: The Postmaster General is on military duty, but when his Estimates are under consideration, either he or an acting minister will be present. The [DOT] hon. gentleman can Taise his question then.


Herménégilde Boulay: In answer to my remarks in favour of an increase of pay to those in the Third Division, the hon. Minister of Finance stated that there were a great many stenographers in that class who are paid more highly than similar workers are paid in commercial offices. Would it not be possible to make provision in the Bill for a special scale for the stenographers? I understand that the work of the stenographers is not so hard as the clerical work generally, and it is a kind of work that is done usually by girls who have no one to look after but themselves, and who consequently do not need as large salaries as the heads of families do. If the only objection is that which the minister has stated, I think a special class should be made for the stenographers, and they should be removed from the third class entirely.
Bill reported.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Thomas White the House resumed in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rainville in the Chair.
Arts and Agriculture-Towards the encouragement of cold storage warehouses for the better preservation and handling of perishable food products, $50,000.
['All right.\nProgress reported.\n\nOn motion of Hon. Mr. Burrell the House adjourned at 11.05 p.m.\nWednesday, June 13, 1917.']
Mr. NESBITT:: There is a good deal of discussion nowadays about the cold storage houses. It is alleged that they buy up food products and carry them unnecessarily, thereby unduly increasing prices. There

was a time a few years ago when, I think, it was absolutely necessary for the Government to encourage the system of cold storage, but now it' has become a large business. To what class of cold storage concerns does this vote go?


Mr. BURRELL:: This item was
held over at the instance, I think, of the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) after we had quite a discussion on the whole cold storage question, and pending information as to the point the Minister of Labour (Mr. Crothers) had reached in the inquiry which he is now carrying on. I took tire matter up with the Minister pf Labour and learned that he had collected most of the information and expects soon to be able to lay a full report on the Table. In view of the fact that until that report is laid on the Table, the Department of Agriculture will make no new regulations, on the subject, I thought probably there would be no objection on the part of my hon. friend to the passing of this item. I cannot do any more in the matter. In answer to my hon. friend from North Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) I may say that subsidies will be given as hitherto. Only pne subsidy will be given in a district, and on certain condition. The plans and specifications must be accepted by the department; ample space must be afforded for public cold storage; and the rates must be under control of the department. On these conditions thirty per cent pf the cost of construction is given in payrpents spread over five years. We have not been giving many subsidies and have rather intended not to give more during the war. Besides, as a matter of fact, the country has been pretty well covered and the accommodation of the public in regard to cpld storage provided for. Formerly this vote was $200,000, and now it is down to $50,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I suppose the minister
takes care not to encourage the establishment of cold storage houses where they are not needed for the public?


Martin Burrell: Yes. And besides we dp not give the subsidy to any body without assurance that ample room for public cold storage will be provided.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: That is, space where the public can store goods on paying certain rates? Spmebody suggested the other night that the charge for cold storage was very high. I think it was said that eggs were charged for at the rate of 12 cents a dozen. Did the minister look into that? I thought

the statement absurd but I did not have the knowledge to refute it.


Martin Burrell: I am sorry I cannot give my hon. friend the exact figure but it cannot be that. It may vary a little in different localities. As a matter of fact, our officers look over these rates very carefully and if there is the slightest complaint on the part of the public, or if the rate charged seems to be exorbitant, we have the power to reduce the rate, and we have exercised it. I think you will find that the rates are those generally accepted by the trade.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: You would not have the power of reducing the rate charged by a private cold storage? ,


Martin Burrell: If it is a cold storage to which we give a subsidy.
Mr. MeMILLAN: Is it the intention of the Government to have the duty removed from oleomargarine coming into Canada?


Martin Burrell: It is not a question of duty, but there is a provision on the statute book prohibiting the manufacture or importation of oleomargarine. The Government has had this question under consideration, we have had a very voluminous correspondence but I am afraid I cannot give my hon. friend any satisfaction.


Charles Marcil: The statement has been published that this question is such a controversial one that the Government intend to submit it to the judgment of the House. May I ask the minister if that is the intention?


Martin Burrell: Quite naturally, anything that is brought up in the way of legislation is submitted to the judgment of the House. This subject like a great many others, would probably be elucidated by being aired. There has not been, as far as my knowledge goes, anything like a controversial discussion about the matter recently. There was during the winter. I could not give my hon. friend any satisfaction as to what the Government may or may not do.
Mr. MeMILLAN: I think this is a question that requires serious consideration at this time.because we know that people in towns and cities are in a very serious condition. Labouring men and poor people are finding it very difficult to get along because of the high cost of living. I live in a dairy country and ninety per cent of the people I represent are farmers who depend upon dairying entirely. I would have been quite prepared to have supported any measure

brought down by this Government to allow the importation of oleomargarine during the continuance of the war that poor people might at least have oleomargarine to put upon their bread instead of being obliged to eat it dry. But the price which has been fixed for cheese in this country has been disappointing to myself and.to most of the farmers. If the Government had arranged to have a larger price fixed for cheese, say about 25 cents, we could have afforded to have advocated the admission of oleomargarine for the benefit of the labouring people and anybody else who chose to eat it. But I believe it would not be fair on account of the low price of 21f cents fixed for cheese to be sold to the British Commission. That price only means between 19 and 20 cents a pound to the farmers. In considering the price of farm products we must take into account the high cost of everything that the farmer is obliged to use. A self-binder that he used to buy for $130 now costs $165, and many other articles, including cream separators, wagons, and implements generally, have gone up from 10 to 25 per cent, -as well as the feed that he has to bhy for his cattle. Last year our cheese averaged 19 cents a pound, and it will be about the same this year. On account of the high cost of everything that the farmer has to- buy I think the Government should -have arranged a higher price -for his cheese. He should get three or four cents a pound more for it. If the Government had secured such a price we could have -allowed the poor people in the towns and cities to have used oleomargarine.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I have had some more resolutions from a number of dairymen's associations in Southwestern Ontario in reference to the inspection of -cheese -at Montreal. They want inspectors appointed for the district west of Toronto, which is a very laTge and important cheese-making district. I do- not want to weary the .minister with something that he cannot control, but I, think that he -might possibly have some control over this question and arrange this matter satisfactorily to the dairymen of southwestern Ontario. I understood from the' -buyer that they were paying more -for cheese on the other side than they are on this 6dde. He was buying in Illinois and Wisconsin and he told me he was paying more to the cheese factory there than he- was paying on this side.


Martin Burrell: For export?


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Yes, because he talked to me about being able to get vessels in New York when he could not get them in Montreal.


Martin Burrell: I have already directed the attention of the commission to unis subject which my hon. friend has brought before me. I have had one or two letters along the same line. Obviously, although my hon. friend may be pretty nearly right in saying that I -could bring this to the attention of the commission, it is not desirable for me to be butting in in the way of trying to control their operations. I am very glad to bring anything of this kind to the attention of the commission, and I am quite positive that they will do their best to solve -all these questions in such a manner as to eliminate all possible friction that can be eliminated. I would like to say to my hon. friend from Glengarry (Mr. McMillan) that if he could know all that is taking place, which he cannot, because necessarily there are confidential communications to a certain extent between the British authorities and myself, I am sure that he would agree that everything possible, in so far as this Government is concerned, has been done in this cheese business to try and get the fullest attention paid to the interests of the producers of this country. But, it is not a question of what we have done. We could not say to the British authorities: You must pay so-and-so for the cheese you get in this country. All we could say to them was that we wanted them to give the fullest consideration to those points which my hon. friend has raised. One contention of the hon. gentleman I quite admit, namely, that the cost of production to the farmers has gone up, and that conditions are not what they were. We have pointed out in the strongest way to the British authorities that if they are desirous of securing the export of the surplus cheese in Canada for the use of the army and the population of Great Britain, it is necessary for them to remember that they must give such a price as would induce the people to manufacture cheese and not turn the raw material in ' other directions. We pressed that on them strongly and persistently. With regard to the other point that the hon. gentleman raises, this also was remembered, and I think it is most desirable that a state of things should not exist-I do not think i-t will exist-under which the American exporter will be able to pay a larger price for cheese than they are paying in Canada and

export at a larger figure to the Old Country than the figure at which they are buying through the commission. I have already brought that point to the attention of the British Commission, and I shall be very glad to emphasize it further.	.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: My information is not gossip, you know; it is absolutely direct.


Martin Burrell: No. Of course, my hon. friend knows that the local conditions will always vary. It does not follow that because local prices in the United States may be. higher than here, the export prices are higher. The export price usually has been the same, because the cheese from the United States has formed only one per cent of the exportable cheese of this continent. It is a bagatelle -compared with our own cheese. The price of our cheese has been the ruling factor in the export trade, and I think it will be in this case also. I know that the shipping question has been -a very difficult and acute one. I understand from the British authorities that they have not been making any discrimination. It is quite possible that now and then when a boat sailing from New York missed a load of munitions, or something of that kind, they filled up with Cheese, but I do not believe they make a practice of taking cheese from American ports and not from Canadian ports. We have taken every conceivable step to get the fullest justice done to the producers of this country, while at the same time giving the British -authorities all the cheese we could.


Mr. McMILLAN:: Does my hon. friend expect that the price fixed by the British Board of Trade will remain the same throughout the season, 2I| cents f.o.b., Montreal?


Martin Burrell: It is not a matter over which I have any control or in reference to which I could make any positive statement. I -can only say that I understand the British Commission had instructions to buy for a fortnight, -but apparently the price was left open. I earnestly appealed to them to fix a price as -high as possible, and it would be very desirable not to lower that price. If the conditions w-arrant it, as they may later on towards the fall, the price might be increased, but, so far as we are concerned, we will do all we can to see that the price is not lowered.


Mr. STEELE:: My understanding is that no cheese manufacturers in thi-s country are compelled to. sell their cheese through this channel.
[Mr. Burrell 1


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Who else would they sell it to?


Michael Steele: I do not see why a cheese dealer should go to the United States and pay a higher price for cheese there and ship via New York if he could buy in this country at a greater advantage to himself.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: They could not bring it in here.


Michael Steele: They could ship Canadian cheese through New York just as easily as they could American. So I think the instances which the hon. -member for North Oxford gives have been special and exceptional cases. I think it would be well for our cheese manufacturers to fully appreciate the difficulties of the situation and not pay too much attention to a campaign which seems to be put up in Ontario to discourage farmers and get them dissatisfied with what has been done by 'the British Government . through its commission. They are being told that they will have to wait a long time for their pay. As I understand, there will be no great delay, the cheese will be paid for on presentation of warehouse receipts. They are told that hooping with steel hoops will cost much more. I understand that will be paid for by the commission, and not taken out of the producers. In fact, it is simply transferring the British market from the Old Country to Montreal, and the producers of cheese in this country will be delivering their cheese to the British Government at Montreal instead of to the dealers in England and Scotland. I am sure that the farmers and dairymen will be very well satisfied with the regulations when they understand them. As to the price, prices are never high enough for some people, and it is a question whether 21| cents is high enough; but so far as the regulations are concerned, I do not think there is any reason why the farmers and producers should feel dissatisfied.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The friend of whom I
spoke is a -cheese buyer not only in Canada but in the United States. He has a firm in the United -States as well as in Canada, and is a very large buyer. He knows exactly what he can do without my hon. friend (Mr. Steel-e) telling him anything. He has been in the -business a number of years, and is just as anxious to'pay a price to the Canadian as to the American cheese makers. As a matter of fact, for some reason., he could pay a higher price. to the American than to the Canadian producer,

and he could get space for all the cheese he wanted to ship through New York and could not possibly get any space from Canada at that time, and that was only a week ago last Monday night. My friend absolutely knows his business, there is no possible question about that. There is no discussion up with us as to delay in getting paid for cheese. There is a little longer delay because it has to be delivered at Montreal whereas the ordinary cheese buyer on our markets pays for the cheese the day it is delivered, inspects it at the factory and pays for it when it is delivered. It is quite possible that the minister can secure some arrangement under which the cheese will be inspected in the West. If that is done, from what I have heard, it will do away largely with any complaint with reference to the British Government taking over this cheese. As to the price, I have not the slightest hesitation in thinking that if they dq not get the cheese at the price they will pay more for it. They will pay the price to get it, that stands .to common sense. However, 21J cents, or 19 cents to the factory, is a pretty fair price at this time of the year. It is more than the price at this time last year. Therefore, I do not think the producers are suffering in that way. If the farmers will not send the milk to the cheese factories, then the British Commission will have to pay a price that will induce them to send it to the cheese factories, that is all there is to that.


Frank Oliver: We are on the iteip in regard to cold storage. The minister suggested that this item should pass, but that later on the Minister of Labour would lay on the Table certain information. I do not know of what value the minister suggested this information would be in connection with this discussion. It is obvious that the question of the handling of the food products of the country through the cold storage warehouses is a matter of most pressing and enormous interest, and it struck me when the statements were being made by the Minister of Labour as to the methods of collecting information, that those methods were entirely inadequate, and liable to be entirely misleading in their results. The subject is one which is entirely beyond the mere consideration of an item in the Estimates of t'he Minister of Agriculture. It is a national question, and I take the liberty of asking the minister what opportunity we shall have of dealing with these reports when the Minister of Labour lays them on the Table.


Martin Burrell: There will he an opportunity of discussing them later in the session upon going into Committee of Supply.
I quite admit that the question is far-reaching and that it is not tied down to the passing of this item, to which I am sure hon. ' gentlemen do not object, because its purpose is to fulfil contracts that have already been entered into. Under the Order in Council which' was passed, the Minister of Labour had ample powers of inquiry. I do not know the details, but I understand that a very full investigation has been made, power having been secured to examine witnesses under oath and to take compulsory steps if the answers or statements made were unsatisfactory. I believe that they have very full information as to prices, amounts, qualities and every condition relating. t-o the storage of food products. What I meant was that under the Act which we passed some time ago we shall be in a much better position to frame our regulations after we shall have obtained and analysed the information secured in this way by the Minister of Labour. I think that there would be an apportunity of discussing the whole question.


Frank Oliver: My hon. friend has suggested that the question could be taken up on going into Committee of Supply, or on some other occasion after the report shall have been laid upon the Table. While that does offer an opportunity for a certain amount of discussion, it does not give such an opportunity for an interchange of views in regard to the matters dealt with in the report as is afforded by a discussion ir committee of an item of the Estimates. I do-not wish to delay the minister's Estimates, but I am anxious that we should have the fullest opportunity for discussion and consideration of this report when it is laid upon the Table. Unless it is a matter of urgency, I would respectfully ask the minister to allow this item to stand until the report is produced and we shall have had some opportunity of considering it with a view to discussing the question, in the light of the report, with the freedom th appertains to discussions in committee.


Martin Burrell: Of course, I do not know when the report will come down, but I have no desire to press the item. If it is the wish of the hon.' member that I should do -so, I hav-e no hesitation in letting the item -stand.
At six o'clock the committee took recess..

After Recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock, Mr. Rainville in the Chair.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Have any definite arrangements been made by this Government with the Imperial Government and the Government of the United States with reference to the proportion of the aid which Canada is expected to give to Great Britain and the Allies in connection with food supplies of various kinds? In the Imperial House of Commons statements have been made by under-secretaries in answer to questions as to the reliance of Great Britain and the Allies on the 'continent of North America for food supplies, and I understand that some arrangements have been arrived at by the United States as regards quantities and other details. Has anything been done by the Canadian Government, and if so, along what lines.


Martin Burrell: I do not think there have been any special arrangements. The matter has been discussed from time to time. I do not think anything clear-cut has yet been evolved .in the United States, because the Government are waiting for powers to deal with these matters. They are asking for rather, strong powers and making their general arrangements, and when they secure those powers, it is anticipated that, as far as feasible, we shall work in co-operation with them. I do not think that I can say anything more definite than that at the present time.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I am rather in the dark as to matters that may impinge upon the realm of diplomacy, but the necessity of furnishing to Great Britain and the Allies supplies, not merely of wheat and flour, but of other kinds of food, is apparent. From time to time, some of the home authorities have' declared that the assurance of food supplies is essential above everything else. The statement has been made in the Imperial House of Commons as to understandings having been arrived at with the executive of the United States, and that executive have submitted to Congress a Bill asking for certain definite powers in reference to it, no doubt on the basis of some general understanding. Has the Canadian Government arrived at any such understanding?


Martin Burrell: Except in a general way; there is nothing that 1 would be able to tell my hon. friend of a definite character at the present time.

Arts and Agriculture-Exhibitions, $50,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Some months ago I
called to the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who is always kind and genial, a project of reciprocal exhibitions between France and Canada. About two years ago, the French Government sent to America a commission composed of business men and some members of the House of Representatives. That commission wa3 headed by Mr. D'Amours, deputy of the Department of Landes, France. Mr. D'Amours, I believe, was the vice-president of the commission on trade in the French Parliament. That commission visited all the business centres in the United States and then came to Canada. I was present in Montreal at various gatherings which were convened * for the purpose of explaining the object of that commission. The French Government had in view the development of better trade relations between the outside world and France. As the president of the commission, Mr. D'Amours, truly said: We do not wish to be surprised by peace as we have been surprised by war. He published broadcast in the United States and in Canada what statistics he had in his possession as to the trade of France previous to the war with Germany, which trade could be transferred to America, and notably to Canada. He gave a list of different articles which could be bought in Canada as cheaply as in Germany. Let me give one instance. He stated, much to the surprise of the merchants, manufacturers and business men who were present, that all of the asbestos bought by the French manufacturers or by the French Government-and it represents a very large quantity-had been imported from Germany, while Germany imported nearly all the asbestos from Canada. He said: "Our commission merchants were in Berlin 'whilst they should have been in Canada." After the visit of the commission, a delegation of business men was invited to visit France and to tour the principal industrial centres. That delegation was composed of the members of the Boards of Trade of Montreal, Quebec, and Toronto. The president of the delegation, was, 1 think, Mr. Woods, president of the Toronto Board of Trade. That delegation went into all parts of France. Senator Beaubien, who has taken a very lively interest,in this matter, accompanied the delegation at his own expense, and on his return he published a very exhaustive report of what the delegation had seen on the other side. The correspondence is in the hands of the Minister of Trade and Commerce and it is made clear that we can very

.materially increase our trade with France. What struck me in discussing this item of exhibitions is this:
Senator Beaubien and Mr. Woods were approached while they were in France by officials of the French Government and by representatives of the boards of trade of the larger cities, such as Lyon, Bordeaux, Havre, Rouen, and 'Marseilles, and a plan was evolved for a train exhibition of the products of both countries. If the Canadian Government could arrange with our traders and manufacturers for an exhibition of our staple products and samples of our industrial work the French Government agreed to equip a train to display the goods, running, let us say, between Havre and Marseilles, and to pay all the expenses. Trains of this sort have been formerly used in Ca/nada, giving our people an opportunity to become acquainted with the natural and industrial products of the country. The French Government, on the other hand, agreed that if the Canadian Government would equip a similar train to run through our provinces from ocean to ocean, they would arrange with their manufacturers- for a similar display of French products and manufactured goods. It was hoped that by this plan the trade of both countries would be fostered and greatly encouraged. I do not know whether the Minister of Trade and Commerce has consulted with the Minister of Agriculture about this matter, or whether he has come to any decision, but in view of the conditions that will arise in the post-bellum days I think it would be in the interest of both countries if this excellent idea were carried out. We have at the present time a very important and very large trade with France, and there is no reason why it should not be developed and maintained, especially in view of the revelations that were made by the French Commission when they visited this country, and which showed such glaringly foolish transactions as the purchase of asbestos in Berlin by French consumers when it could have 'been easily procured in Canada, which produces such large quantities.
The minister has been successful in the last two exhibitions in which Canada participated, and I think if he would give some thought to this project of the French Government and of the French Chambers of Commerce he would render a great service to the business men of this country. It may be that when the Estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce are up I shall enlarge upon this subject, because I have copies of some very interesting and
illuminating correspondence between business men in France and Senator Beaubien and Mr. Woods. Our duty at the present moment is certainly to do as much as we can to win the war, but we must not lose sight of what is to happen after the war, and one of the chief duties of the Government, it seems to me, is to prepare to capture trade during the period immediately following the war. We will need wider markets, and what better foreign market is there than that of France? I think if an exhibition train of this sort could be equipped and put into commission it would render a very great service to the business men of this country.


Martin Burrell: I have a very fair recollection of what transpired in the negotiations to which my hon. friend has alluded, in which, though my department was not directly concerned I took a very sympathetic interest. I cannot say just how far the negotiations went or whether the matter was definitely dropped or not. I know, however, that it was taken up in some detail, and that some of the circumstances are as my hon. friend has described. The matter was discussed at some length, I believe, by the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, because it would naturally be done largely under their auspices, or at all events the merchandise would be collected for the train by their machinery, and that would involve a great deal of preparation. I stated that if the project came to any definite conclusion my department should be glad to help in any way in connection with our own exhibition work, although it was entirely out of our line to deal with a train of this sort. I rather think the project was dropped, whether by mutual agreement or not I do not know, on account of the terrific pressure of the war, which made it inadvisable to go on with the scheme. That is my understanding, but no doubt the Minister of Trade and Commerce will be able to give my hon. friend a fuller explanation.


Herménégilde Boulay: Mr. Chairman, I take the opportunity afforded me by the discussion of the item now before the House to call the attention of the Minister of Agriculture (to an anomaly in the administration of his department. I have no doubt but that the grievance is one of long standing, but, after all, that is no reason wihy the question should not be brought to the notice of the minister.
The Department of Agriculture is one of the most important in the Civil Service, and

it seems to me that it would) be (proper to appoint to the higher offices men who speak both official languages. This is not the first time that I broach the subject; I even recommended tor appointment as veterinary surgeon in that department a thoroughly competent man from the province of Quebec, but the minister sidetracked my proposal, though admitting the undoubted importance of having' officials conversant with both languages,
In a letter dated 14tfa May last, he said:
In regard to the other letter, dated 24th April, I have noted carefully what you say. It would, of course, be a ipleasa.nt combination of qualities if an officer not only had the highest technical knowledge, but also a free command of languages, but thorough competence is, of course, essential in the discharge of duties of a technical and Important character. Nor, I fear, would it be: possible to appoint him to any important position under the Veterinary Director General. I may say that Dr. Telmosse, many years ago, failed to pass the necessary examination at the Veterinary college in Chicago, to which a number of Canadians were sent for this purpose.
In that paragraph, the minister recognizes the importance of having officers with a free command of both languages; he even hints that it is essential and of tlhis I have evidence in the county of Eimouskd. Some four or five months ago an officer of the department came into the county. He was. 'quite well qualified for his duties, but the people of the province of Quebec, who do not understand English, could derive no benefit from his extensive information; yet his salary is provided by the people of the province of Quebec just as much as by the people of the other provinces. He came to attend a farmers' convention, but could not -address those present.
I fail to see why the Department of Agriculture could not find men having the necessary technical knowledge and likewise familiar with both languages. From the statement of the minister one would infer that nobody could be found in the province of Quebec with the proper qualifications for positions of that nature. Judging from the list of the high salaried officers in the Department of Agriculture, it would appear that the French-Ga-nadians are systematically excluded; out of nineteen employees, there is only one -French name; to make sure, I had (better read the list:
G. F. O'Hallaron, Deputy Minister.. . .$6,000 00 Lt.-Col. Jarvis, Asst. Dep. Minister . . 3,600 00 P. Montizambert, Director General of
Public Health /	5,0-00- 00
P. Torrance, General Veterinary Superintendent	 5,0-00- 00
J. A. Ruddick, Dairy Commissioner .. 4,00-0 00 
G. H. Clark, Seed Commissioner .. ..$3,650 00 P. E. Ritchie, Registrar of Trade Marks 3,600 00 P. K. Doherty, Canadian Commissioner
of International Institute of Agric.. . 3,40-0 00 J. H. Grisdal-e D-irect-or of Ex-per. Farm 3,300- 0-0 John Bright, Live-stock Commissioner. 3,30-0 00 W. J. Lynch, Chief of Patent Office.. 3,200 00 F. P. Shutt, Assistant Director of Exp.
Harms	     3,2-00-	00
W. T. Macoun, Dominion Horticulturist 3,100 00 D. Johnson, Fruit Commissioner .. .. 3,100' 00 George Hilton, Chief Veter. Inspector.. 3,000 00 C. G. Hewitt, Dominion- Entomologist. 3,000 00 C. -E. Saunders, Dominion Cenealist .. 2,80-0 0-0 Felix Charlan, Chief of the Tobacco
branch.. .. '	  2,800-	00
Herbert Arkell, Assistant Live-Stock
-Commissioner	2,80-0	00
Therefore onl-y one French-Canadian of nineteen employees-, while the French element in -the Dominion, according to the census of 1911, aggregates, I think, 28 or 30 per cent of the whole population; the proportion would likely -be greater to-day. It does occur to ime that the French-Can-adians should be represented in the Department of Agriculture in proportion to their number. Then there is the further -necessity that the higher officials of that department ought to be able to impart the information they possess to the farmers of Quebec as they do in the other provinces, so that there might- be no discrimination.
This, latter -consideration alone should have been sufficient to induce, not only the present incumbent but previous ministers- because I believe the grievance is of long standing-to remedy the -situation. It would be nothing but justice toward the French-Canadian people -and a benefit to the farmers. We need the technical knowledge of those experts, whose salaries we pay not for the sole advantage of the Englishspeaking communities but for that of the French-Ganadian farmers as- well.
Since conditions have not improved, I deem it my duty to -draw the attention of the minister to that matter, as I have done in this House for some years; miy object in discussing the matter publicly to-night is to bring it to the notice of the minister, that he may take the first opportunity of remedying -that grievance and granting ns the fair treatment to which we are entitled and which would work to the benefit of agriculture. It is- in the (Gulf -district especially, where the cli-mate is not as favourable as might be to the success of farming operations that it is essential that the people be instructed in the best method of tillage. But how -can those officials give the information to men whose language they -do not understand?
I think I have said enough to convince the minister that for all those reasons we

are entitled to fair treatment and, if (he has not caught my meaning, I am quite willing to repeat (briefly in .English what I have just said in French.


Martin Burrell: Had my hon. friend (Mr. Boulay), who speaks English very well, addressed the committee in that language, he would have made himself more intel-ligble to me, and I should have been able to follow him with greater clearness, because I am not, I regret to- say, so well acquainted with the French language as I might be. I understood him, however, to make a general argument to the effect that all the higher officials of the departments should he able to speak the two languages. He enumerates quite a number of our officers, but of those he named a considerable number speak French very fluently. Dr. Mou-tizambert, for instance, would be able to follow my hon. friend no matter how long lie might speak French, and he would be able to. reply to him with absolute, clearness in that language. Mr. Doherty, Mr. Grisdale, Mr. Lynch, Mr. Charlan, also, are very familiar with the French language. In fact, Dr. Grisdale, who occupies the very important position of Director of Experimental Farms-I understood my hon. friend to say that agriculture was not receiving the attention it should receive from the Federal Government, in that officers who do not understand French are sent out to address the public-could go before an audience of French-Oanadians and address them in their own language with absolute facility. So, I cannot altogether plead guilty to the hon. gentleman's accusation. Perhaps he had better tackle some bther minister.


Herménégilde Boulay: But we do not see those who talk French.


Martin Burrell: That may be because
they are there when the hon. gentleman is not at home, but officers who speak French visit Iris section of the country with fair frequency. It is true that we have not so many technical officers in t'he service as we should like to have who understand French thoroughly; but I would point out that in this country the most highly- trained agricultural students, are, unfortunately, not graduated from the colleges m which French is the language.
This Government has probably done more to strengthen the agricultural colleges of Quebec than all preceding Governments. The hon. gentleman may or may not know that for the last four years, under the Agricultural Instruction Act, we have given
$20,000 to Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, and also to Oka College, for the express purpose of strengthening the staffs and equipment of those French Canadian colleges, in agriculture, in order' that they may turn out more highly equipped students, whom we would gladly employ. But I am bound to say, and without prejudice in the matter, that no one who knows thoroughly the science and practice of agriculture would say that either of the institutions I have mentioned could turn out half as many practically trained students in agriculture as an institution like the college at Guelph. In our wqrk we must have men who not only have a practical knowledge of agriculture, but who also understand the scientific basis of their calling; and for this class of men we have to look almost entirely to such institutions, and largely to the institution at' Guelph. With the work we have been doing for the last four years we hope in future to have a larger choice of men. We hope to continue that work for some years to come, if we stay in power; and even if, to the misfortune of the country, we do not stay in power, the 'succeeding Government, whatever it may be, I am sure, will not upset the work done under the authority of the Agricultural Instruction Act.
That work will still go on. When that work comes to fruition and when these educational institutions are sufficiently strengthened that they will turn out a large number of young men -who will not only understand the French and English languages but who will be thoroughly equipped in scientific agriculture, if I am in charge of this depaitment, I will be only too glad to secure the services of such men. But, in the meantime, I must frankly say I have great difficulty in getting hold of men who thoroughly understand both the French and English language. I do not know that this has any special reference to the item under discussion which is our exhibition work. In connectiorf with this work, I might say that we have not very much of a staff but we have no less than three men who are on the permanent staff who are French-Canadians and who also have a thorough acquaintance with the English language. As to the work of the commish sioner, I confess Col. Hutcheson does not understand French, or to a very slight extent, but, although I did not appoint him, and although he was appointed by the late Government, I am bound to say that if you were to search from one end of Canada to the other, I do not think you could conceivably find a man who could take Mr. COMMONS
Hutcheson's place in connection with exhibition work. He has been in the service for sixteen or seventeen years. Not only by his marvellous natural capacity for exhibition work, but also by his long experience in international exhibitions, he has achieved an almost unrivalled supremacy in connection with big international exhibitions. To such an extent is this the case that when I was in San Francisco two years ago at the dedication of our building there-the most magnificent building that some of us had ever seen-I was given a luncheon by the president and directors of the Panama-Pacific Exposition at, which Col. Hutcheson was present. If my hon. friend had heard the terms in which these gentlemen spoke of the extraordinary ability and efficiency of Col. Hutcheson as commissioner, I think he would have been more than satisfied that it would be almost impossible to get any man in this country who would be equally capable in that class of work. I am glad to bear this testimony to Col. Hutcheson to-night because he is a man who is no longer young, he is 71 or 72 years of age, he has been quite ill lately and I regret very much to say-that in the position in which he is placed he is not eligible for superannuation as he would have been were he in the Inside Service. The department and the country owe him a great deal for the extraordinarily efficacious work that he has been doing in the last three years and for the great success which he has had at San Francisco and San Diego where our exhibition elicited the unstinted admiration of the people of the United States. If it had not been for the war that exhibition would have attracted very much more attention but, as it is it would have attracted very much more attention and would have done a work for Canada that perhaps in point of usefulness, could not have been excelled.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I hold no brief to defend the Government, but on this occasion I must say that what the hon. gentleman has just stated is true Irom beginning to end. As regards exhibitions, Colonel Hutcheson is certainly the best officer that Canada has ever had. He has organized our exhibitions abroad. Colonel Hutcheson is known in every country in the world-in Japan, wheie he organized the Osaka exhibition; in Italy, where he organized the Milan exhibition.; in Belgium, where he organized the Brussels exhibition; in England and in the United States. Colonel Hutcheson has, in fact, had an influence in advertising Canada that no man can imitate. As

regards the question of the dual language, there is associated with him a gentleman named Mr. Hains; he has an English name but he is as French as the hon. member for Bimouski or myself.


Martin Burrell: Mr. Girardot.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes, a French-Canadian from Essex county.


Martin Burrell: Mr. Turcotte.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes, Mr. Turcotte. I have met them all at two or three exhibitions in Europe. No blame can be laid at the door of the Minister of Agriculture. I have written to the minister very often in French, and he has answered me in French. As regards the last officials mentioned by the hon. member for Rimouski (Mr. Boulay), Mr. Montizambert, Mr. Charlan and Mr. Grisdale, they all speak French very fluently.


Herménégilde Boulay: Where are these Frenchmen-we never meet them.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Have you ever spoken with Mr. Grisdale?


Herménégilde Boulay: Yes, he certainly speaks French.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I know many named Ross in Rimouski, and they do not speak English.


Herménégilde Boulay: If they speak French, how is it that we see nothing but English names on the list?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I know many Scotch people, who, despite their names, do not speak English. These points are really not worthy of my hon. friend. I am thankful to the Minister of Agriculture for the publication of the Gazette Agricole, a French publication which is spread broadcast in our province, and which contains most useful information for our farmers. This is a precedent. This paper has been published for the first time under the direction of my hon. friend, and so, if the minister does his duty towards my fellow-countrymen in Quebec, and if he is spreading intelligent agricultural knowledge among them, it is not fair to come and say: "Why ignore the French?" Ait the experimental farm, where our habitants from Quebec come in contact with the department, we have a French secretary. He was appointed by Mr. Fisher. In addition, there are many French officials in the department. It is not at the door of the Minister of Agriculture that a complaint of this kind should be laid.


Herménégilde Boulay: I am rather taken aback by the statement of the hon. member for Bouville (Mr. Lemieux) that there are many officials in the Department of Agriculture who speak French fluently Time and again, I personally called at the offices of Mr. John Bright, 'but could not get myself understood except by an humble stenographer. Out of a dossen employees that I found therein, not one knew any French. I think that in a service as im-protant' as that presided over (by Mr. John Bright, there should be some officers with a knowledge of French. Let the hon. member for Bouville make any denial he cares, the fact remains, unaccountable for me, that of the gentlemen mentioned as having a good command of French, all but one bear French names.
I wrote to the department and recommended to different positions certain French-Canadians who bear French names and in every instance the reply came that the applicants were not qualified. Judging by the answers given to questions which I placed on the Order Paper, I find that only from French-Canadians are those qualifications required. I will quote some of those questions and the answers:
Q. Was the late John Bright, Live Stock Commissioner, a graduate of a Canadian university?-A. No.
Q. If so, what was his degree, the name of the university and in what year?-A. Answer under 1.
Here is another regarding Dr. Torrance:
Q. Is Mr. Frederick Torrance, Director General Veterinary of Canada, a graduate of a Canadian university?-A. A graduate of McGill University, with the following degrees: B.A. in 187S, D.Sc.V. in 1890.
That is twenty-seven years ago, and solely from McGill University. I think the gentleman I recommended to the minister was a ^graduate of Laval University. I should consider the degrees conferred by a French institution in no way inferior to those conferred by an English university; but the gentleman for whose appointment I applied was turned down, because, I was told, he had failed to pass the examination of the Chicago Veterinary College. I don't see that Dr. Torrance was required to take that last examination. His degrees, obtained as far back as 1878 and 1890, were found quite sufficient. Veterinary science, as any other science, is improving from day to day, and J think that diplomas conferred by Laval University at a recent date must have as much value, to say the least, as those obtained at McGill University in 1878 and 1890.
I say this with some feeling, because, after all, here are the French-Canadians being systematically debarred from appointment in the Department of Agriculture under the pretense that the applicants of that nationality have failed at some examination of the Chicago Veterinary College.
I know whereof I speak. Take the case of Mr. Fixter, one of the officials. He is a splendid gentleman, quite qualified I am sure. I met him in the county of Rimouski where he came to lecture. He knows his work well, but he has no knowledge of French whatever. So he had to take about with him men who certainly have not his experience, and the farmers of my county, being unable to- understand his lectures, derive no benefit from his learned disquisitions.


Mr. MORPHY (North Perth):: I understand that new regulations have been promulgated by the department presided over by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, and from information I have received, it would appear that these rules will entirely disrupt a lifelong practice in regard to the manufacture, boxing and curing of cheese in Western Ontario, and I believe also in Eastern Ontario. In the county that I have the honour to represent we have a very large number of cheese factories. In one township of that county alone there are nine factories within the confines of the township and four on the border or, in other words, Elma, a township of 67,000 acres, contains within it nine factories, with four on the border, serving the patrons of these 67,000 acres, or a factory to every 5,000 acres, which is probably one of the most densely covered cheese manufacturing districts in the country. The practice of the farmers there has been to manufacture and cure their cheese and box and ship them f.o.b. at the nearest station, where they have been paid their money. My correspondent points out that the new regulations promulgated or approved by the minister involve, among other things, the question of price, the present establishment being 211 cents per pound. The gentleman who writes to me points out that he met the commission in Montreal a few days ago and was furnished with a copy of the rules, and while I am not a practical expert on cheese, I adopt the objections that he raises, so that the hon. minister may, if he feels inclined to do so, consider them, and if there is an injustice, remedy, it. He says that the rules are entirely unfair to Western Ontario cheese manufacturers and that they put the factory men at a great disadvan-

tage; and more especially is it a disadvantage to the dairyman himself, the man who makes the cheese. And that man who makes the cheese is not an individual unit; he is there by thousands, engaged in an industry -which is of moment to-day when the question of food products is a live issue. We are all asking the farmers of the country to produce and produce and produce again; that is the cry that has gone forth. So i submit that under these circumstances the Government should be inclined to facilitate production and make the pathway of the real producer easy. My correspondent claims that the rules are entirely framed for the benefit of Montreal produce dealers and against the best interests of the farmers who produce the cheese. That is rather an alarming statement, in these days when we are asking the farmers of the country to do their best. He says that under the new rules cheese has to be inspected, weighed, coopered, and such like in Montreal. For fifty . years cheese has been inspected, weighed, coopered, -and manufactured at home in the factories of the farmers I represent,, and what justification the minister can have for disrupting the policy of a lifetime, changing the whole current of trade, making the farmer send his cheese to Montreal, there to be prepared for export when he has been in the habit of doing it at home, I should like the minister to tell me.	*


William Cameron Edwards: How much cheese from Western Ontario goes to- Montreal?


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I cannot give the figures, but from the complaint made here by this man, who is an expert in the business, it seems to be alarming to him. I cannot answer that question, but I know that in one -section alone in my county in an ordinary year there is about three-quarters of a million dollars worth of cheese produced; that is an -average crop produced and sold in one district, so that it is a very 'big industry.


William Cameron Edwards: It might be sold out of one township, but my information is that for a number of years comparatively little cheese from west of Peterborough has gone out of this country by way of Montreal.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: The hon. gentleman may ;be right or 'he may be wrong.


Mr. WEBSTER:: He is right.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: When a cheese expert
like my hon. friend from Broekville says he is right, I am satisfied he is right; but whether he is right or wrong makes no dif-

f-erence in my case. The practice of the past may change to-morrow. Conditions are upside down, topsy turvy, and when a man of the reputation of Thomas Ballen-tyne, of Stratford, recognized as one of the big men of the cheese industry in Canada, one of the expert men, one of the largest exporters, writes me that the conditions are alarming, it is my duty, representing that county, to place the facts -before the minister. He says that cheese will be inspected in Montreal. For a lifetime it has oeert inspected at the factory at home. Does the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) say that that is not true? '


William Cameron Edwards: Yes.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Why?


William Cameron Edwards: Because it is not in accordance with the facts.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: It is an e-asy thing to
say that. The hon. gentleman will probably -put my correspondent and me right when he speaks to the question. In the meantime, I accept the facts -as stated by a gentleman such -as the gentleman who has written to me, who says:
The rules that have been promulgated will necessitate all our farmers haying to wait until this grading at Montreal is done, which would mean considerable time.
This would cause 9 disrupted- condition among the farmers of the c-ounty.
He says further that they
-Suggested to the Commission that one man look after the inspection in Western Ontario. And in this event-
And I ask the minister to pay particular attention to this-
-the cheese could all be shipped to our different warehouses at Stratford, Ingersoll, Woodstock and London, and the grading done there.
So that the factory men would then be paid in the course of a very few days for the shipment of their cheese. He says that possibly this matter has been submitted to the Minister of Agriculture, but he . has no assurance as to what the minister is going to do about it. He says that the matter should he rectified, as it means that the farmers of Ontario will suffer the disadvantage of a considerably lower price than those of eastern Ontario. I notice that the member for Frontenac and the member for Broekville, both from eastern Ontario, for some reason seem to be perfectly satisfied, whereas western Ontario seems to be very much dissatisfied. Is it because the eastern Ontario cheese is shipped green?


John Webster: No, it is because the western men are hard to please.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: 
Hugh Boulton Morphy: Who is . responsible for
the creation of this board?
' Mr. BURRELL: It is true that we, with the British Government are, in a sense, responsible. From the fact that between the British Government and ourselves a commission was appointed to secure surplus Canadian cheese and to arrange the matter in a satisfactory way, it dries not follow that I am in a position to control the commission. It is obvious that I could not do so. As a matter of fact, if the British Government had adopted the plan of sending men out to buy such cheese as they could transport across the ocean, very much worse conditions might have arisen. We asked them hot to eliminate the ordinary machinery of the cheese trade, pointing out that this machinery is complicated and adapted to the conditions connected with the manufacture and sale of cheese in Canada, and that to deal with, the matter through another system would have a tendency to upset things. This cheese board, therefore, is communicating with all the interests concerned. We have nothing to say about the price. The British Government decided what price they could afford to pay. We understood that they did not expect to pay more than 19 cents, which was the price they paid New Zealand. We made such arguments in -the matter as my hon. friend himself would probably make,



and they finally adopted the price of 21f cents. The commission is making such arrangements, by the adoption of regulations or machinery, or whatever you like to call it, as will secure that cheese f.o.b. Montreal, in grades that are practically known to the trade, in order that the British Government, while getting it in the simplest and easiest way, will do no injustice to any part of the community. There is, of course, no obligation to sell; there is no compulsion in any shape or form. I shall be very glad indeed to have my ion, friend's remarks as they appear in Hansard sent to the Cheese Commission, with the request that they give his remarks their particular attention and do what they can to obviate any difficulty and to prevent any friction of this kind.


John Webster: I think that the friend of the member for North Perth (Mr. Morphy) in Stratford is taking.the position of the spoiled boy. Mr. Ballantyne has been an exporter of cheese from the western part of Ontario. To-day he finds that it is impossible to get a quotation for contract rates .across the ocean to Liverpool. I think the Commission is right in the way that it decided to do business. Any man who has been in the trade as long as Mr. Ballantyne has is quite capable of inspecting cheese; the same may be said of any man in his employ. Speaking generally, one may say that no poor cheese is being manufactured to-day in Canada, because the man who, makes poor cheese is driven out of business. We in Canada profess to make the best cheese in the world and I am proud of our reputation in that respect. If Mr. Ballantyne is dissatisfied with the report that he gets from the inspector at Montreal, all he has to do is to go there and look after his own interests, just as I do and just as many other men do. I am satisfied with the work of the man who inspects this cheese each week. I try to be in Montreal each week during the operations of the cheese trade and I am satisfied that the cheese is properly inspected. That has been the situation in regard to cheese inspection during the past two years.


Michael Steele: Should a cheese buyer in Western Onario buy his cheese as first grade and ship it as first grade, is there any likelihood that there will be any change in it when it reaches Montreal?


John Webster: None at all. The only possible trouble that could arise would be if he shipped it in a very high temperature

in an exposed car. If he put it into a refrigerator car at Stratford, it would be in good condition when it reached Montreal.


Michael Steele: There is practically no change in policy?


John Webster: No. Mr. Ballantyne has been able to do away with the difficulty of coopering. All the cheese that went to the British army was formerly taken out of the cheese box and put into a square case bound with two iron bands.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: All that can be done at Montreal.


John Webster: It can be done more easily at Stratford. There are two iron bands now put around the cheese box.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Our cheese is not so strong as to require that.


John Webster: The hon. gentleman
speaks of all the storage facilities of this country. The situation is simply this: No other city in America has as great storage facilities as has the city of Montreal. In that city you can have goods stored at any temperature from fifty degrees down, and that is why the commission is goingi to take advantage of those storage facilities. In regard to the weights, why should not the commission in Montreal get sixteen ounces to the pound just as any other dealer receives? That is the situation. These questions have all to be considered by the commission, and I must compliment the Minister of Agriculture on the businesslike manner in which the commission has handled this very great industry.


Mr. GLASS:: I have received to-day two communications from cheese organizations in my district in western Ontario, but the only objection raised is as to the need of inspection being confined to Montreal. I presume that it is the general custom to collect the cheese at centres to which suitable side shipments are made to make up carloads, and I would like the minister, if the matter is worthy of his consideration, to bring to the attention of the commission the fact that certain objections are raised in western Ontario, and to see if any means can be found to facilitate the inspection of cheese at central points of shipment. That would give satisfaction to the cheese manufacturers in my district.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: I wish to get some information from the minister in regard to a matter that does not properly come under this item. I think it would properly fall under item 45.


Martin Burrell: I do not know what my hon. friend is going to speak about, 'but if he can confine his remarks to an item that comes up it would be desirable, because we are wandering all around this item. At the present moment we are discussing an item on exhibitions.


James Joseph Hughes: My remarks would more properly fall under an item that has already been passed, but when the item was brought up I was absent through no fault of my own, tout on account of illness, and I shall toe obliged if the minister will give me the information. Some years ago the farmers in Prince Edward Island were greatly troubled in regard to a disease called powdery sca'b that was alleged to be amongst our potatoes, but during the past two years we have heard very little about it, and during the last year we have heard nothing about it. Has the disease disappeared, or partially disappeared, or is there any danger of its coming back? If it has disappeared it is important for the farmers to know that. Are any steps being taken to prevent its recurrence?


Martin Burrell: I cannot tell my hon.
friend if that disease has disappeared, and I viery much doubt that. We did entertain very great apprehensions as to the ravages of powdery scab, and in the Botanical Division of our plant pathologists are still working on it. Fortunately, it did not prove as serious as was anticipated, and I think that by better methods of cultivation and by a better selection of seeds, we are having it eliminated. I will call my officer's attention to the matter and give my hon. friend information in regard to it.


James Joseph Hughes: It was stated at a conference that met at Washington that this disease was very widespread in the Maritime Provinces and particularly Prince Edward Island. If it has disappeared, I think it would: be the duty of the department or the minister to bring that fact to the attention of the proper authorities in the United States, and to take whatever steps may be deemed advisable to have the embargo that was imposed against our potatoes removed.


Martin Burrell: My hon. friend is under a misapprehension. I took that matter up personally with the authorities at Washington and went into it very thoroughly. We had that embargo lifted some time ago, adopted a position which would allow any of our potatoes to come in as- long as they had not more than, a certain percentage-
145}
I have forgotten the exact percentage-of disease, including povfdery scab and other diseases of less importance. Therefore, there has been practically free importation of potatoes into that country for some time past. We advise the United States authorities from time to time of conditions in this country.


James Joseph Hughes: As I understand the matter, potatoes have to be inspected at the point of shipment?


Martin Burrell: No, at point of entry
into the United States.


James Joseph Hughes: The minister understands that no person in Canada could undertake the risk of shipping potatoes to the United States with a possibility of having them rejected, because the expense of bringing them back to Canada would mean the lose of the shipment. The regulation is of no practical value.


Martin Burrell: Oh, yes.	1


James Joseph Hughes: Unless we could
secure a regulation to have our potatoes inspected at point of shipment, or unless the American authorities would be willing, to accept a certificate from Canadian officers, it would be impossible to carry on the trade.


Martin Burrell: Is my hon. friend aware of any. rejections having occurred in the East?


James Joseph Hughes: No person could undertake to ship potatoes under those regulations.


Martin Burrell: Probably there have
been half a million .or a million bushels of potatoes shipped into the United States this year; in fact, there has been a complaint that too many potatoes have been shipped out of this country into the United States. The United States are not going to give up the power of examining goods that come into their country, but they are carrying out that regulation in a broad way. Unlees the potatoes are in such a badly diseased condition as not to be a credit to Canada to be -shipped out of the country, there is no trouble at all, and with the exception of a very few shipments which should not have been made to any market, there has been practically no trouble, and out of the enormous quantity of potatoes that have been sent out this last year from the East, so far as I know, there has not been a single rejection.
<


James Joseph Hughes: The minister maybe correct in regard to shipments from New Brunswick, but I know that no shipments have 'been made from Prince Ediward Island except when the potatoes have been purchased by citizens of the United States who have come to the province to buy them. The risk otherwise would be too great.


Martin Burrell: As excellent potatoes
are grown in Prince Edward Island, there should be no difficulty.


James Joseph Hughes: Unfortunately the United States people got the information that our potatoes were diseased, and that has been a great hindrance to the trade.


Martin Burrell: We will do all we can to alleviate the trouble.


James Joseph Hughes: The difficulty arose through information being given to the American people which was not in accordance with the facts.


Frank Oliver: What exhibition work is going on at the present time and what is in prospect?


Martin Burrell: We have practically
closed up our exhibition work. The Panama-Pacific International Exposition at San Francisco closed a year ago last January. San Diego was holding an exhibition at the same time called the Panama-Cali-fornia Exposition, and they were exceedingly anxious for us to exhibit there. Delegations, including the president, came down here twice from San Diego, but we decided that we could not exhibit in both places. As the war was on and there would be no travel in Europe, but a great deal through Southern California, they decided to keep the San Diego Exposition going for another year. They had a large guarantee from the city of Los Angeles to help them financially, and they finally made such an exceedingly generous offer that I felt we would be justified in accepting it. They gave us the finest building in San Diego, paid for the transportation of the whole exhibit from San Francisco to San Diego, and gave us free light, free water, and guards for the exhibition as well. Under these conditions we moved the exhibit to San Diego, where it has been seen probably by three or four million visitors. The exhibition was kept going until last March when, as there were no other big international exhibitions in sight, although we did have a proposition to go to Washington and to another place which would have involved very heavy expense, we came to the conclusion to pack up the exhibit and store it at Ottawa.
["Mr. BurrelL]


Frank Oliver: What is to be the expenditure under this vote?


Martin Burrell: It is for the payment of the staff and the transfer of the exhibit to Ottawa. It is a very large exhibit, and will cost a considerable amount to pack up and transport.
Mr. OLIVER,: I think there has been an annual grant for a Dominion Exhibition?


Martin Burrell: That is a separate item for a Dominion exhibition in the big centres of each province. It was Nova Scotia's turn this year, but as their buildings had been taken over for military , purposes, and on account of the dislocation caused by the war, they decided not to hold the exhibition, and we are not asking for a vote this year.


Frank Oliver: The exhibition staff will be disbanded?


Martin Burrell: Yes.
For renewing and improving Canadian exhibition at Imperial Institute, London, and assisting in the maintenance thereof, $5,000.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Will the minister tell us what this is about?


Martin Burrell: I have not seen the exhibit for a long time, so I cannot tell my hon. friend much about it. I think each Dominion contributes so much to keep the exhibit going.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The Imperial Institute has been criticised in the English press and declared to be of no value whatever. Every now and then some body of men on the other side of the water develop some fad, get an organization going, and come on the overseas dominion for grants to run some exhibition that is of no interest to the general public. It may be a club or an exhibit of this kind. Unless there is some real merit in this Institute, I do not see why we should spend this money, especially in war time.


Martin Burrell: I am not disposed to dispute very much what my hon. friend says; I am not enthusiastically defending this Institute. It is to some extent a matter of sentiment, and we have been asked to keep up our share of the maintenance expenses.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Who runs it, what is it about, and what is its genesis?


Martin Burrell: I think it was started towards the end of the reign of Queen Victoria, with the idea of exhibiting some of the natural resources and products of the

great dominions beyond the sea. Lord Strathcona was very keenly interested in the Institute, I believe.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I remember when I was on the other side some years ago, I could not find out anything about this place.
I think the minister will find that it is run by a coterie of some gentlemen with a fad of their own, to which they wish the dominions to contribute. I saw a very strong criticism of the institute in an English newspaper last winter, which pointed out that it was of very little use.


Martin Burrell: I shall be glad to make further inquiries about it.
Health of animals, $570,000.


Archibald Blake McCoig: A year ago when a similar vote was under consideration by the House I drew the attention of the Acting Minister of Agriculture to the fact that the different stock dealers and abattoir companies were extorting from the purchasers of all hogs a commission of one-half of one per cent for inspection. The impression went out that this was the Government inspection fee. The acting Minister of last year gave me the assurance that the department would look into the matter and see that this unfair practice was stopped. I have here a statement of Dunn and Levack, a live stock firm in Toronto, for stock sold to Mr. Ferguson, of the township of Raleigh, and at the bottom it says, "Inspection on hogs one-half of 1 per cent." This practice is followed by the stock merchants of the country, as well as by the abattoir	companies.	A	statement I	have here shows	that thenumber	of hogs	purchased	and	soldin Canada for the year ending March 31,	1916, was 2,363,693, which at theaverage	price of	hogs for	the	year,
would amount to about $59,000,000. The number of hogs condemned was 6,582, which, at the average price of $25, would represent a value of $164,000. One-half of one per cent .on the value of the hogs purchased in that year would amount to $290,000. This is the amount collected by the abbatoirs. So there was a clear gain to these different concerns of over $125,000. This amount the abattoirs and commission purchasing houses have extracted from the pockets of the farmers. And, even though we should admit their right to take the whole of the $164,000, they clearly have no right whatever to this extra sum. Feeling that the department is anxious to have this matter rectified, I would suggest to the minister that it would be only fair to take
it up with these different concerns. If they are going to continue to Tob the public as in the past, it might he advisable for the department to take over the hogs that are condemned at a price and compel the abattoirs to cease altogether this unfair charge.
I should he glad if the minister would give this his most serious attention and, if possible, find some means to stop the unfair practice that is going on.	.


Martin Burrell: This matter has come to our attention .once or twice before, but I shall he glad to take it up again. It is easy for these concerns, of course, to make up the statement in the form my hon. friend has mentioned, hut it has a misleading effect so far as the owner of the hogs is concerned, because it leads him to think that they are transferring to him a charge that they have to pay to us. But that is not the case, because we do not charge them for inspection, for that service is maintained at the public expense. What they do, of course, is to try to recoup themselves for the amount of condemnations for which they receive no compensation. And in the practical working out of the system,-It is extremely difficult to identify the hogs. But these concerns have no business to put it in a misleading way, nor have they the right to make a charge under a misleading heading in order to cover their losses.


Archibald Blake McCoig: Would it he possible, if
they continue making this charge against the producer, to provide for it in some way in these Estimates? It seems most unjust that the abbatoirs should reap a harvest in this unfair manner. If there is any way by which the department could compel these companies to cease this way of operating, I feel satisfied it would meet with the hearty approval of the producers throughout the country.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Was there much animal
disease in the country last year-much cholera among hogs or glanders among horses? Or what were the principal troubles?	>


Martin Burrell: The situation as to the disease among our herds is very much better than it has ever been before in the history of the country. In glanders, whereas in 1913-14 the sum of $34,000 was paid for compensation for animals slaughtered, this has gradually worked down until last year we paid only $20,709. Hog cholera, which four years ago cost us $61,000, and the following year $190,000, we have cut down to the lowest point in the country's experience

-$27,000, involving the destruction of 4,400 animals. Dourine, with 'which we had great trouble in the West-hon. members from Alberta will know about it-cost us at one time $48,000, later $32,000; and now it is down to only $3,900 for the killing of 32 animals. This means that the disease is practically under control. Altogether, so far as all these scheduled diseases go, the country never was in a better condition than at present.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I congratulate the minister and his department on that happy condition. I understood-I do not now recall the source of my information-that the minister had circularized the country to the effect that he was paying some compensation for the slaughter of cattle affected with tuberculosis.


Martin Burrell: Two or three years ago we took up the question of bovine tuberculosis, in the hope of reducing it, if not eradicating it completely. It is" a very, difficult subject, as the hon. member (Mr. Nesbitt) knows. We passed Regulations by which we could take up with any of the municipalities, which number over 5,000, the question of trying to eliminate tuberculosis in the herds that supply the dairies of the cities. We took it up in this way, "because we' thought the first step to be taken should be to protect the people in the cities who- especially the children-are rather helpless in regard to contaminated and infected milk. But the only city that went into this work thoroughly was the city of Saskatoon. The authorities of that city took .advantage of our regulations. These regulations provide . that the city must have a sanitary inspector of the dairies, to compel conformity with the conditions we have laid down as to the space to be allowed for each animal, the light, ventilation, and so on. Then we would, from time to time, subject the cattle to the tuberculin test and destroy reactors or separate them, giving their owners certain compensation. The difficulty was that the compensation was not quite enough. We found that it would be more helpful towards the desired end if we increased the amount of compensation so that men owning infected cattle would not be so much afraid to come in and take advantage of our inspection. Also, we made provision in reference to the herds that were not entirely free from tuberculosis, .that the milk might be sold so long as it vras pasteurized, as pasteurizing eliminates the possibility of transmittiing the tuberculosis from the

bovine to the human form. Under these regulations, passed a couple of months ago, we expected to have a number of municipalities take up the work in conjunction with the department and regulate the business as in Saskatoon, where they have brought the whole thing down to less than two per cent.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What amount is allowed for each animal now?


Martin Burrell: We allow $40. Before that- we allowed one-third of the maximum valuation, which is $60. Afterwards we raised it to two-thirds, and, as the owner has the salvage, he .may realize the full amount.


Samuel Francis Glass: It is unfortunate in the
interest of the public health that municipalities did not more generally avail themselves of the assistance which the Government afforded towards eradicating tuberculosis among the herds in their several districts. What method has been adopted of .acquainting the municipalities which are eligible for assistance under this Act of the changed conditions? I think it has been evident in the past that while the Government has attempted to lend assistance, that assistance has not been attractive enough to encourage the municipalities to take any interest in it, largely by reason of the inadequate compensation. The conditions having been Changed during the past month or two, I would think it very important, if the municipalities are to- avail themselves of the assistance offered by the Government, that they should be properly acquainted with the conditions.


Martin Burrell: Not only were the regulations published in the Gazette, but we also circularized the medical health officers of all the municipalities.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: In addition to the municipalities, do the department take it up with individual farmers? Will they pay compensation to an individual farmer if he takes that means of ridding his herd of tuberculosis?


Martin Burrell: That is a very big undertaking to start at the present time. The best we can do .at the present time is to deal with the municipalities. If we started with individuals it would become a tremendous task. That would be the most practical step in the education looking to the eradication of bovine tuberculosis in Canada, but no country in the world has adopted it. If we were to make it com-

pulsory for the province of Ontario, alone we would get into enormous difficulties.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: My suggestion was not
that you should make it compulsory, but suppose you let is he known to individual farmers that you would pay an indemnity of, say, $40 for each animal slaughtered, the farmer would report oases themselves. I understand that the department still supplies tuberculin to individual farmers who send for it?


Martin Burrell: Yes.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: In that case the farmer
might take it up himself if he knew he would be compensated for the cattle he would have to slaughter. I do not mean that the department should use compulsion. But, as you know, a great many cattle that are .affected with tuberculosis are sold for what are called eanners and cutters. I do not know that that is a very nice thing to make bully beef out of, but still there are a great, many cattle of that class picked up by drovers and sold to the canning factory.


Martin Burrell: Of course, the tuberculous cattle that my hon. friend is referring to would be condemned in the abattoir although they, would not be if they were sold to the ordinary butcher. The provinces and municipalities cannot disassociate themselves from responsibility in this matter because they have power, with ourselves to deal with the question locally. We supply tuberculin to test animals to any farmer who wants to find out if he has tuberculous cattle. It is quite true that we have not paid compensation for the reason that if we started that we do not knew where it would end. In British Columbia the Provincial Government took it up as a domestic question and they passed an Act providing for the inspection, slaughter and compensation of animals. It is open to any province, or any district, to do it, but it would be a task of tremendous magnitude to go as far as iny hon. [DOT]friend suggests. We have already taken one step forward and I do not say that we will not take another.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: There must be some way of getting around the inspection. My hon. friend says that cattle affected with tuberculosis would be condemned at the abattoir?


Martin Burrell: Yes.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: As a matter of fact, the cattle are shipped to the abattoir.


Martin Burrell: They are condemned.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The drover is like the rest of us; he would not continue to buy cattle liable to be condemned, and which would entail loss. The drovers do buy such cattle and they ship them to the abattoir.


Martin Burrell: The percentage of cattle condemned is of course not so large as the case of hogs.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Only the parts affected are condemned?


Martin Burrell: Yes.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Part of the beast might pass inspection and the part that is affected would be condemned?


Martin Burrell: Yes.


Archibald Blake McCoig: Has the serum treatment been used by the officers of the department as a preventitive against hog cholera, if so, has it proved satisfactory, and can the minister give the committee an idea of how many hogs ha-ve been treated during the past year and what saving was made?


Martin Burrell: It has'been very satisfactory. The saving to the department would probably be about $35,000 last year as a result of applying the serum treatment to contact hogs. In a district in which hog cholera has broken out we condemn those affected with the disease, treat the contacts and if necessary they are slaughtered on the premises.


William Cameron Edwards: Have steps been taken to prevent the feeding of garbage to hogs unless the garbage has been treated?


Martin Burrell: Yes, I would say to my hon. friend that in the last two years the majority of the outbreaks of hog. cholera have been directly traceable to the feeding of uncooked garbage. In the United States, where they inoculate altogether and do not slaughter as we do, it has been found that a hog may be immune and yet he may be absolutely a carrier of disease. If uncooked garbage containing the germs of the disease are fed to hogs it will transmit hog cholera and in the majority of cases we have found it directly traceable to the feeding of uncooked garbage. Last year we framed regulations providing that no man should feed uncooked garbage, or if he did, he would run the risk of having no compensation at all. That has had its effect. We have gone a little further and now we have instituted a system of licenses so that no man can feed, any garbage of this kind unless he is licensed and the officers of the department

see that that man is properly equipped with cooking apparatus so that he will be able to cook all the garbage. [DOT]


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Does the minister's department look after it in Ontario?


Martin Burrell: Everywhere.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: We need not depend on the Ontario Government?


Martin Burrell: No, we do it everywhere throughout the country.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I know some people who feed garbage without any cooking.


Martin Burrell: We do not make it operative against the farmer on his own premises but it is applied to the garbage that is collected from hotels and places of that kind.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Has anything been arranged with regard to the removal of the embargo on cattle shipments to England, of which the Prime Minister spoke a short time ago?


Martin Burrell: We have no official information!. The Prime Minister took it up with the authorities in England and had very satisfactory assurances. All I know is what I saw in the press a while ago, that they did for the first time admit that there was no disease in Canada that warranted them in continuing the embargo on. the ground of disease. They admitted that frankly. But my recollection of the press item was that it was n,ot a practical question at this time because it would he hardly possible to import any cattle from Canada inasmuch as they were-trying to keep down their herds in Great Britain pn account of the demand for cereals of all kinds for human consumption.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Do they admit that the disease never did exist in Canada? I have read in the life of Sir Charles Tupper that on one occasion he -went to Liverpool and proved in the presence of experts that , there was no such thing as pleuro-pneu-monia in our cattle.


Martin Burrell: I think they admit it
now.


Samuel Francis Glass: What steps are taken to
enforce the regulations with respect to this important matter of the feeding of uncooked garbage? The regulations are good if they are properly enforced, and I presume that some method has been adopted to ipeet that need.


Martin Burrell: As a matter of fact, we have been too .shorbhanded to carry out, in as comprehensive a way as we should like, the inspection of this garbage feeding. We are doing the best we can, keeping a very close watch and prosecuting in -some cases and .much has been accomplished. I have now under consideration the strengthening of that service by the employment of men who are not veterinaries to do educational work.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Does the minister operate through the local veterinary surgeons, or has he his .own inspectors?


Martin Burrell: Our own inspectors.
For the administration and enforcement of the Meat and Canned Foods Act, $325,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: ' There is an increase in that vote.


Martin Burrell: The increase is due to the normal expansion of the packing business in Canada. The business steadily increased last year and, as my hon. friend knows, directly a packing establishment is able to carry on interprovincial or export trade, its operations must be conducted under the. inspection of our department. The increase in that work practically accounts for the whole increase in the item.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: You keep the officers in the packing establishments without expense to the packers?


Martin Burrell: Yes.
Publications Branch, $30,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I would suggest to the Minister that he take steps to give wider distribution to the publications of his department, particularly those showing the results of successful experiments and . of good business practice, in regard to stock raising, and other branches of farming.


Martin Burrell: The Publications Branch as it stands at present is a connecting link between the Department of Agriculture and the public. By its operations the agricultural community and all interested are provided with the annual and other reports of the several branches, as well as with the pamphlet booklets, circulars, leaflets, and similar publications issued under the auspices of the department. During the past few years, the system of distribution has been improved and the volume of circulation much increased. A little time ago each branch of the Agricultural Department issued its own publications and

paid for them-ran its own show, as it were. These have all been consolidated now under a speciai branch, the Publications Branch. Until the present system was organized in 1912 each branch distributed its -own publications. The lists were small and much of the addressing was done by hand. These lists, involving French and division lists numbering twenty-seven, included about 150,000 English and French names. The lists have been since that consolidated, reclassified and developed until upwards of 306,000 people are receiving our bulletins, and are directly reached by the information afforded by investigation, research and study at the experimental farms and the livestock, dairy and other branches. The classifications now include subdivisions so arranged that the applicants are sent publications on the subjects desired and o-nly these.	.
' There is no use in sending them to any one who will destroy them or not put them to good use. Under a system of combinations, it is arranged that when a publication, such as Seasonable Hints, including information on several branches of agriculture, is sent to all the mailing lists, one copy only is addressed to one person. . The lists are maintained on metal stencils from which envelopes are addressed by machinery that handles from 20,000 to 25,000 addresses per day. Great progress has been made in reaching the farmers of the country. Application cards showing the subjects embraced by the several mailing lists are sent to the farmers on rural routes and made available to visitors at fairs and exhibitions. These cards aTe mailed also to those who apply for publications and who are not already on the lists. From these sources many applications are received and classified as required. 'The following table indicates the growth of the lists and shows the number of publications mailed during each of the five past fiscal years: No. on No. of	No.
Lists. Publications. Mailed.
1913	
168,292	48	1,450,0001914	
178,000	59	1,069,4331915	
202,000	46	1,806,4541916	
240,000	66	3,091,3451917	
306,200	62	3,206,718Total in five years	10,624,040
That will give the hon. gentlemen an idea of how we are trying to push this work. It is not all easy, but we are getting on very much faster than a great many people realize. In addition to the publications that are sent out as I have stated special publications are sent to those who ask for them.
For the development of the live stock industry, $700,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What steps .is the minister taking towards the development of the live stock industry?


Martin Burrell: Development is taking place along a great many lines. For instance, two years ago we inaugurated a plan of giving assistance to fairs. The live stock interests were exceedingly anxious that the Government should supply a large-amount of money for the establishment of a large central live stock show, a'long the lines of that held from time to time in Chicago. They came 'to us with a proposal that would involve an expenditure of $250,000 or more. We looked into the matter carefully, and I told the various delegations that before we would undertake to do anything it would be neces-
10 p.m. sary that the live stock interests *throughout the country should be harmonized. That is, they should agree upon a method and upon a place where the proposed fair should be held. The further they went the more difficult it became to reconcile the different interests concerned. Having regard to our geographical conditions, naturally it was difficult for them to agree upon a central place for the holding of the exhibition. Finally it seemed that the whole project would break down, and as we were convinced that it was desirable to assist the development of the live stock industry, we laid down a plan under whieh any exhibition that had given a prize list of $5,000 for the utility classes of live stock in a previous year should get a grant of $2,500 to assist that feature of the fair. We agreed to give half the amount of their przie list in the previous year, limiting the amount to $5,000. Speaking off-hand, about twenty or thirty fairs throughout the country took advantage of th^s provision, which has been operating during the last three years, and still ' continues. Owing to the war conditions, and, in some cases, to the buildings being taken up by the military authorities, some of the fairs have found it difficult to continue their work. We are trying, however, to encourage it; we do not think that it should be dropped. This year we are reducing the amount which must have been given in prizes on a previous year, with a view to giving more assistance to the winter and spring shows, which are confined to the exhibition of the utility classes of livestock. Probably we shall reduce the amount to $2,500, so that any livestock fair, which, in a previous year, gave prizes amounting

to $2,500 will receive another $2,500 to assist that feature of their show. This applies to those shows which have no other attraction than that of livestock, and which do not strongly attract those members of the public who are not interested in livestock.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: It is rumoured that the department sometimes sends stock to various localities to encourage the breeding of better animals, and that sometimes this stock is not used for breeding purposes. I heard the other day 'about somebody Who was ploughing with a bull that my hon. friend sent out. Has the minister ever heard of anything of that kind being done? Is there much buying of sires for localities and giving them to those localities dree?


Martin Burrell: Without dealing with this special case mentioned by my hon. friend of a bull ploughing-although that is very good work in these .days-we did establish about three or four years ago-and it was work in which Mr. John Bright was very much interested-the practice, for improving the herds of Canada, of the department purchasing pure bred sires, and then when associations were formed to undertake the maintenance and care of the animals, we would lend them to them under certain regulations which were promulgated by the department and assented to by the associations. Under that policy which has been under way for about three years-this is the fourth year-we have distributed throughout Canada more than 3,000 animals, that is, bulls, stallions, rams and boars. There were about 1,200 bulls altogether. A great number of these have gone to outlying points of the community or to backward portions of the various provinces where the herds have been of a very poor class, where inbreeding has been practised, where scrub bulls have been running around at large and all that sort .of thing, so that the livestock industry of those particular sections, instead of being built up on sound, progressive lines, has been the reverse. If I had time, I do not think I would have difficulty in showing that this work* has been immensely appreciated throughout the country,' and that it has done an immense amount of good. The hon. member can quite understand that, in the distribution throughout all parts of the country of 3,000 animals, during a period of three or four years, in certain parts of the country where the people are not intelligent there is some difficulty in having the regulations lived up to. It is true that
CM:- Burrell.]
in the province of Quebec, to which the hon. member probably, alludes, in the case of one or two associations we did have a little trouble where the people were particularly ignorant and did not appear to understand the regulations. These associations, for instance, bind themselves to provide a caretaker who should look after the animal and keep it in proper condition, and they are to pay him for his services. A few of the associations forgot to do this; the caretaker would have the animal, and, as it was not being paid for by any body, he would become careless and would not pay any attention to it at all. In that way we did have some difficulties, but we are getting them all cleared up, and the percentage of them is so infinitesimal in proportion to the number of animals sent out throughout the country that it is hardly worth while considering.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: You send the animals out under certain regulations?


Martin Burrell: Yes.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Is the department concerned with some horse breeding association from which we frequently receive circulars?


Martin Burrell: No.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: It was supposed that the King had recently sent a horse out to some association, either here or in Montreal.


Martin Burrell: I think my hon. friend is probably alluding to the National Bureau of Breeding in Montreal. Some years ago we did assist that bureau very considerably, and my hon. friend and some other hon. members may remember a strong discussion that took place in this House about three years ago in which our action and the work of the bureau came in for a good deal of criticism. The year after that we ceased giving assistance to the bureau, and we instituted a different system, partly by establishing this policy I have referred to in the purchase .and distribution of stallions, and partly by assisting the horse breeding associations or clubs which we are now keeping up and developing on much stronger lines. If any association of farmers who are interested ini the horse question club together and form an association under certain rule's, and want to secure the services, for instance, of a first-class horse of any particular breed, and the man who owns it may say: Well, it is not to my interest to keep a horse of this kind here because you
V



[Stage Direction]
people will not pay enough for -service, then we come to their assistance and pay up to 40 per cent. The services of the department in that way are being taken advantage of to a very great extent. Last year about fifty associations availed themselves of our assistance, and we thought that was a better way of putting the matter on general grounds than of assisting a particular bureau.
Samuel Francis Glass: Has the minister before him the distribution of those horse associations by provinces?


Martin Burrell: I cannot give my hon. friend that information by provinces, because we have it only by the different breeds. I will get the information for him.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Does the minister ever send out thoroughbred stallions to those associations.


Martin Burrell: We do not lay down any regulations as to particular breeds; we give the associations the opportunity of taking what breed they want. Only two thoroughbred associations have availed thmselves of the 40 per cent offer in regard to assistance.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Would the minister send me the regulations governing those horse breeding associations, and also the regulations governing the fairs?


Martin Burrell: I shall ibe glad to do so.


Mr. COPP:: What class of associations are they-agricultural associations?


Martin Burrell: No, they are formed for this special purpose.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Who is responsible for the forming of them-the farmers themselves or the department?


Martin Burrell: They can form associations themselves. This is the outline of the scheme:
The farmers of any district, wishing to wcJrk for the betterment of horse breeding by encouraging the use of sound, individually excellent, pure bred sires, may form a Breeders' Club for the purpose of hiring a pure bred stallion to travel their districts for the beneilt of the members. This club, by organizing under and adopting the constitution and bylaws, and Conforming to the various rules and regulations governing this grant, may participate in the Federal assistance given to such clubs as hereinafter set forth:
1.	The club shall guarantee the stallion owner a definite number of mares at a certain service fee per mare, said mares to be in good breeding condition, and not affected with any contagious or infectious disease.
2.	All stallions named by clubs for the purpose of securing Government assistance must be submitted to an examination by an authorized veterinary surgeon.
3.	The secretary of the club shall forward to the Live Stock Branch, with the regular application, a list of its members, also a copy of the memorandum of agreement signed by both parties interested. This agreement shall not become binding until approved by the Live Stock Commissioner.
4.	The minimum service shall be not less than twelve dollars.
5.	All service fees shall be collected by the
club.
6. Payment of service fees shall be made as follows:	One-third of the service fee for
each guaranteed mare shall be paid by the club to the stallion owner at the end of the
service season. .
7.	The remaining two-thirds of each service fee shall be paid when the mare proves to be in foal. That is to say, the remaining two-thirds shall be paid for only such mares as prove to he in foal.
8.	At the end of the service season the stallion owner shall furnish the Live Stock Branch with a sworn statement setting forth the number of mares bred to his horse and the name of the owner of each.
9.	The Live Stock Branch shall pay the club an amount equal to 40 per cent of the total amount paid at the close of the service season on the full number of guaranteed mares, on receipt of the stallion owner's statement and of a properly audited and sworn statement signed and declared by the president and secretary.
10 The Live Stock Branch shall pay the club a second grant equal to 40 per cent of the amount paid to the stallion owner on the total number of mares that prove to be in foal, that is 40 per cent of two-thirds the service fee paid for each mare that proves to be in foal on receipt of a properly audited and sworn state-mentP signed and declared by the president and
i.'inroi'irv nf +VlA dub.


Mr. ROBB:: Is it the policy of the department to pay the same contribution towards racing or trotting stock as for general purpose horses?


Martin Burrell: We make no distinction between breeds. There was a suggestion at one time that we should contribute more for' thoroughbreds with the idea of encouraging the raising of remounts, but we have got it down now to a basis of 40 per cent for all breeds, and it remains for the associations to specify the particular breed they want.


Arthur Bliss Copp: If an association in an outlying district wants a thoroughbred sire, have they to send for it or is the horse shipped to them?


Martin Burrell: I do not want my hon. friend to confuse the two things. In the first place we are ourselves buying and distributing pure bred stallions, and associations are formed to maintain and take care of them. But this is another form of

assistance, by which people who form clubs can get any individual animal they desire, we assisting by paying 40 per cent of the service fee.


Frank Oliver: I do not wish to discourage the minister in his efforts to improve the live stock of this country, but there have been brought to my attention certain conditions bearing on the one principle of assistance that he mentioned which I think it is only right I should bring before the minister. When the Government undertakes to supply thoroughbred sires, either cattle or horses, they to a large extent debar local enterprise. It may be said that it is not a matter of concern to the Government whether local enterprise is encouraged or discouraged, but when the Government undertakes to meet the needs of the country in this way, it is absolutely necessary that the stock so furnished should be of a satisfactory character. It is not a benefit to the country for the Government to provide sires of anything but the highest class. By providing sires that are not of a high quality, they at one and the same time deter home enterprise and fail to build up the stock of the country in the way that is desired. I am sorry to say that my information is that in too many cases sires of inferior breed, both cattle and horses, have been sent into different parts of the West. 'I do not wish to make an allegation, but I think it is only right that I should repeat to the minister what has been said to me, that in the judgment of the parties who made the statement the purchase of these inferior animals was, in a large measure, a matter of straight graft, that the breeders of the inferior stock were getting an undue advantage at the hands of the Government, and that the localities in which these inferior animals were distributed were not receiving the benefit that was in contemplation by the Government in the instigation and carrying forward of this policy.
The second system of assistance that the minister has described to the House is, of course, directly in the line of encouragement of local enterprise-an enterprise, I would say, of a high class. Wherever that arrangement can be made I think it would be more beneficial, both directly and indirectly, than for the Government itself to send in the stock. I thought it was only right I should acquaint the minister with the statements that were made to me. I have no personal knowledge of the matter, but I can assure him that the statements

Were made to me by men whose opinion I could not very well gainsay, and I think it* would be well for him to make very careful inquiry in future transactions of this kind, both on account of the direct and indirect effect, namely, the failure to produce the class of stock desired, and the discouragement of local enterprise.


Martin Burrell: I am very glad to hear any suggestions from my hon. friend. I am quite sure he understands that I am cordially in sympathy with what he states to be the objects of this work. He suggests that we might be barring out local enterprise. When we established this policy it was laid down as a fundamental principle that we should not attempt to do this work in any district where we should be competing with private owners of animals. In any district where private owners bad animals available for that part of the country we did not think it was our function to send in an animal of the same type. This scheme, of assistance was primarily designed to supply those districts that had great difficulty in getting pure bred sires, and were using scrub stock. Of course, it is not possible, in distributing 3,000 animals, to get satisfaction in every individual case, the human equation being what it is in buying and selling and arranging matters of this kind. I have no doubt that mistakes have been made, but I do not think there have been many. I am quite sure I could give abundant evidence as to the general satisfactory character of the work that has been accomplished. I should be very glad, indeed, if my hon. friend and any other hon. member would bring to my attention any such opinion as he has touched upon tonight, for I think the best service that can be done to any department is to point out any weaknesses that may exist, in order that the minister may strengthen them. I have no idea at all of encouraging mistakes, or graft, or anything of that kind. I shall be only too glad to have cases of this kind brought to my attention, in order that I may have them traced up and see that they do not occur aga;n.


Frank Oliver: It was with that view
that I brought the matter to the minister's attention. Not that I wish to interfere or bring any charges, but merely that he should be on his guard against such an occurrence. I would not have it understood that I have made these remarks to discourage local enterprise or to lead in any way to the support of local enterprise against the action of the department. I was merely making a general statement that the

action .of the department must necessarily have the effect of deterring, not preventing, local enterprise.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Now that my hon. friend from Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) has mentioned it, I would remind the minister that there is always a certain amount of gossip to the effect that the department buys sites of various kinds that are not up to standard, because of political favouritism, paying big prices for them, and sends them out in different sections of the country. I do not know anything of that kind personally, so I am not making any accusation by any means; but I join with the hon. member for Edmonton in warning the minister that that would he a had thing for the department.


Martin Burrell: I frankly admit it, a
very bad thing.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I quite believe that the minister himself would not encourage anything of that kind. As to the other system of encouraging the grouping of farmers to buy really high-class horses for a neighbourhood, I think that is an excellent idea. But, so far as heavy-draught horses are concerned, in our section we do not need any encouragement of that kind, for we have as good as any the world produces in all classes of heavy horses. In former years, in our section of the country, when race horses were more generally bred there, we had a better class of saddle horses than at present. That is why I put my question with reference to the thoroughbred. I am sorry to see the thoroughbred to a great extent passing out in many sections of the country. The thoroughbred crossed with a sound mare, not too heavy a mare, produced, to my knowledge and experience, some excellent saddle horses; and it is a pity they are going out. But, I suppose, the gasolene thoroughbred does, away with them to a great extent.


Mr. McCREA:: The department has a representative at Sherbrooke buying thor-oughhred horses for the Government. Is it the intention of the Government to continue that system of buying horses?


Martin Burrell: We are largely dropping out of that phase of the work, for the reason I have mentioned-that we are giving more attention to encouraging farmers' associations in the use of good horses.


Francis N. McCrea: I have been asked by
some of our people for information which [DOT] I could not give. I have heard rumours- I do not know whether they are true or not
-that a large number of horses have been bought, many of them of inferior quality, and distributed to the farmers on certain conditions, but that the farmers did not find them profitable and consequently returned them. If my information is correct, a large number of these horses were collected and last fall sent to a lumber camp to be used all winter, and were returned in no very good condition this spring. I see by the Auditor General's report that Mr. C. N. Lester has drawn from $1,200 to $1,500 for the keep of horses. If the Government are spending money for horses for breeding purposes, they should buy proper horses, and they should see to it that those horses are not used for purposes other than that for which they were bought. A horse that has passed the winter in a lumber camp, where they try to get out of him all the labour they can, does not come out exactly fit for service in the spring. Can the minister tell us whether Mr. Lester has been collecting these horses and taking care of them, and, if so, what does the Government propose to do with it.


Martin Burrell: From personal knowledge I know nothing about the matter. The hon. gentleman (Mr. McCrea) can understand that a very large number of animals are bought throughout the country. It will occur in the case of some associations that the animals will not be well taken care of-that occurs even in the case of private ownership, and these associations do not always live up to the spirit of their obligations. In . such cases, and where the animals are in bad condition, we gather them together and have them taken care of, and, in some cases, sell them. I do not know as to the facts of the case to which he has referred, but I shall be glad to look into it and get for him such information as I can. I can only assure him that nothing of the kind to which he refers has been encouraged by the department, nor do we want to see anything hut the best returns for the money spent.


Mr. CROMWELL:: A good deal has been said about the Government's policy of distributing thoroughbred livestock throughout the country. I do not think that anything has been done by any Department of Agriculture that has so stimulated the livestock industry as this policy adopted by the present minister. In our section the farmers have received a great benefit, and in the outlying districts particularly the livestock has been greatly improved. If you

were to go through districts to-day which you had known five years ago, you Vrould see a great improvement in the quality of the livestock. There is no doubt that in some cases, as my hon. friend from Sherbrooke (Mr. McCrea) well knows, the condition of horses or other animals may be such that they will need to be taken in, so to say, for repair. I would assume that that is the reason why these horses were with Mr. C. N. Lester. With so many horses distributed to all sections of the country, there has to be some place to take these horses when they are not in a condition for breeding purposes. I would assume that that was the reason why Mr. C. N. Lester's stable was used for that purpose. We have four horses in Compton and they have all proved to be splendid successes. They are doing a great deal of good and not interfering with any private enterprises, as was suggested by the hon. member for Edmonton. They have been placed in districts where there were no other good sires of particular breeding available. Consequently as I say, they have done a great deal of good. The same would apply to other pure bred sires, bulls, rams and boars. As far as the county I represent is concerned, they have derived a great deal of benefit from this particular policy and I would favour an extension of that policy until it would attain the result of placing pure bred animals in every district in this country. The, western part of Canada needs it just as much as eastern Canada. Farmers, particularly in the newer districts', may not toe able to go out and buy pure bred sires, or, if they are able, they may neglect to do so. If they neglect it, a policy like this is bound to encourage the greatest industry that the country has-the livestock industry.
Mr. MeCREA: Mr. Chairman, I am not disposed to criticise anything that, the Department of Agriculture can do for the benefit of the farming community. I am something of a farmer myself and I know a little about livestock. 'If the (Government is going to buy pure bred stock, it should be of the very best quality. No other kind is worth anything either to the individual or to the Government. The next thing necessary is to take care of it. If it is true that these horses were sent across the line to a lumber camp, that is not proper care to fit them for the purpose for which they were bought. I am interested -as a member of this House in seeing that the country gets the best results that can be got from

the -money spent and I wanted to draw the attention of the minister to the information that had been placed in my possession that these horses have not been properly taken care of, and that they are consequently not fit for -service. This is the time of year when they should be doing some good if it is going to be done, instead of being kept herded up in Lester's barn. It is up to the Government to see that they are not put to uses that would unfit them for the purpose for which they were bought. I am not saying that it is a fact that they have been hut that is my -information and I have been asked to ascertain from the minister whether it is true or not.


Martin Burrell: I will be glad to get the information and- -send it to my hon. friend.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: 
Edward Walter Nesbitt: Does the hon. gentleman mean to say that the department is limited to $150 for a sire?


Martin Burrell: I think my hon. friend was referring to bulls. We raised that to $200. It is $600 for stallions.


Donald Sutherland: I think it was $150 some time ago. I know that in Edmonton a bull was sold for either $8,000 or $10,000, so that hon. members will see the wide disparity in prices.


Frank Oliver: I want to go as far as the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) in accepting the administration of the Minister of Agriculture as being conducted in the very best faith, so far as he is concerned. I cannot conceive any reasonable minister desiring to do anything but what is best for the country, that being for his own credit and the credit of his department. My remarks were not intended as a charge against the department or founded on a supposition of maladministration of any kind; I was raising a point of policy as to whether the department should in its effort to improve the stock be willing to pay higher prices and thereby get a higher quality of animal. I made my argument for the purpose of impressing on the department the desirability of putting in only the superior animals. The public concern is in getting a good animal. I thought it was fair that the department should consider that there was not only the direct effect in the quality of the stock coming from the animal brought in, and the indirect effect of naturally deterring local private enterprise. I hope my remarks will not be construed as toeing in any way a reflection on the department, tout that they will be taken as a fair suggestion that, in pursuance of the policy, the standard of the animal should toe raised rather than lowered, and that care should toe used to see that the standard is kept up, whatever price is paid.


Martin Burrell: I quite appreciate the
spirit of my toon, friend's remarks, and I am largely in accord with what he says. He will understand that there is danger in


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What is the maximum amount that the minister pays for boars and rams? '


Martin Burrell: 
Edward Walter Nesbitt: 
Martin Burrell: That was the price last year. It may be necessary to increase it.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I am afraid the price is altogether too low. We will not condemn the minister if he raises it.


Frank Oliver: Has any of this registered stock-cattle, horses or hogs-been sent to the outlying districts of the constituency which I represent? There is- the Grande f Prairie settlement, the Spirit river settlement and the Peace River settlement. I know that something has been done in this respect in the Grande Prairie settlement, but I am not sure as to the others. Then there is the High Prairie settlement, on the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia railway; a much smaller, hut a very excellent settlement. I do not know whether anything has been sent there or not.


Martin Burrell: I suppose it would be expensive to get them in there.


Frank Oliver: There is railroad communication, High Prairie is on the way to Grande Prairie Then there is the Father settlement, on the same railway, and the Swan River settlement. I should be glad to know what has been done in the matter of sending pure bred stock into these settlements. ,


Martin Burrell: I shall be glad to send my hon. friend the information.


Frank Oliver: There is also the settlement of Fort Vermilion, which is about 300 miles down the Peace river from the terminus of the railroad at Peace River town. The importance of the settlement may be judged by the fact that this spring several carloads of wheat were brought by steamer via the Pieace river from this Vermilion settlement and shipped over the railroad to Winnipeg. This settlement, therefore, may fairly claim the attention of the department, if it has not already done so. With direct rail and steam communication, it is possible to reach it now as it was not in previous years.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What are, briefly, the rules of the department in regard to the distribution of these animals?


Martin Burrell: I will send my hon. friend copies of the pamphlets which contain the general rules and directions. These animals are sent, for instance, to new settlements and to districts which are isolated or are a long distance from privately owned sires, making it difficult to obtain them. The people form an association among themselves under general rules laid down, and we engage to send them any sire of any particular, breed that the majority may want. They must undertake to maintain it and keep it in proper shape.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: To what extent is that system applied in Nova Scotia?


Martin Burrell: Between 200 and 300 pure bred rams have been distributed in that province during the last four years; nearly 20 pure bred boars, and 43 pure bred bulls.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I had in mind a case where animals were sent to a district which was not isolated.


Martin Burrell: At first they were sent only to districts which were absolutely isolated, hut it was found advisable to send them to other districts where they were badly needed, provided they did not interfere with privately owned sires.


Mr. GRAHAM:: There may be considerable discussion on the next item, along the line of what is being done for greater production. I would suggest that this item pass, and that the next two be left for apother sitting.


Martin Burrell: All right.
Progress reported.

On motion of Hon. Mr. Burrell the House adjourned at 11.05 p.m.
Wednesday, June 13, 1917.