1917-09-05

QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
[Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks.!

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Was a steamer or motor boat, called the Alafe, purchased by the Government of Canada from any person or persons at Halifax, N.S.?
2.	If so, from whom, when was she purchased, and what was the price paid therefor?


Mr. HAZEN:: This question refers to a motor boat called the Alafe, No such motor boat was purchased by the department, but a motor boat called the Alase was purchased by the department, and I am answering the question on the presumption that that is the boat to which the hon. member refers. Motor launch Alase was purchased at Halifax from Messrs. Mc-Innes, Mellisih, Fulton and Kenny, in June
1917,,	for $10,000.


DYNAMITING OUTRAGES.
Mr. ETHIER:: 1.	Has the Government been Informed of the attempt against the property of one (ledeon

Bigras, of Ste. Scholastique, county of Two Mountains, by means of dynamite on the 11th of August?
2.	If so, has the Government taken necessary measures to prevent any such future attempts?
3.	Is it true that the Government has offered a reward of $5,000 to any one who will give information necessary for the arrest of the dynamiters of the property of Lord Athelston-Graham at Cartierville?
4.	If so, has 'the Government any intention of acting in the same manner in order to protect the property of an ordinary citizen as well as that of a millionaire, or lord, such as Lord Athelston?


Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	The Government was not informed, but the police officers learned of the attempt through the newspapers.
2.	Mr. Bigras was communicated with, but as he did not desire any investigation, having reason to believe he knew who waB responsible, no action was taken.
3.	Yes.	-
4.	The action of the Government in such matters must be and is governed by considerations of what the public interest requires, and not of the personality or position of individuals affected.


BRIGADIER-GENERAL W. S. HUGHES.
Mr. PROULX:: 1.	Where is Colonel W. S. Hughes, Inspector of Penitentiaries for Canada, now located, and what duties is he now performing?
2.	Is he still drawing his salary of $3,S00 as Inspector of Penitentiaries, while engaged in military service?


Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	Brig.-General W. S. Hughes is at present serving with the Canadian Expeditionary Force overseas.
2.	Yes, under the Order in Council in force at the time he joined the overseas forces.


IMMIGRATION AGENTS.
Mr. EDWARDS:: 1.	How many immigration agents were employed by Canada in the United^ States during the last fiscal year?	*
2.	How much money was paid to said agents
in salary and expenses, respectively, and how many immigrants came to Canada as a result of their efforts?	.
3.	How many clergymen, priests or ministers of the gospel were employed as immigration agents during the last fiscal year, to what religious denominations did they respectively belong, and how much was paid to each in salaries and expenses?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Thirty-two.
2.	Salaries, $51,352.89; expenses, $112,042.94; immigration, 61,389.
Seven;	Roman Catholics:	%
	Salary. Expenses.	
1.	600.00	$1,549.772.	1,200.00	1,636.413.	341.67	513.674.	160.395.	600.00	1,027.296.	500.00	1,466.387.	236.67	888.15


CAPE BRETON RECRUITING OFFICERS.
Mr. CARROLL:: 1.	Who were the recruiting officers employed for recruiting purposes in the four counties of Cape Breton since August, 1914, to date?
2.	What was the amount paid to each of these officers individually, for his service as recruiting officer?
3.	Is there a recruiting officer (or officers) at present in Cape Breton? If so, what is his or their name and address or addresses?
4.	What remuneration is being paid, and to whom, for recruiting services at the present time?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1 and 2. Captain E. W. Florence,- $1,118.25; Lieut. W. L. Chirgwin, $1,111.50; Sergt. A. D. Johnstone, $396.10; Dr. C. E. McMillan, $546; J. F. Blagdon, none; Dr. B. A. LeBlanc, none; Rev. A. Murray, $348; Lieut. W. N. Yetman, $504.30.
3.	Yes. Capt. Rev. A. Murray, from September 1, 1915, to January 1, 1916; since that date without pay. Lieut. W. N. Yet-man, headquarters at Sydney, May 1, 1917, and still acting.
4.	Lieut. W. N. Yetman-$4.10 per diem.


MRS. JESSIE MACDONALD.
Mr. CARROLL:: 1.	Is Mrs. Jessie Macdonald, of Catalone, Cape Breton County, in receipt of separation allowance?
2.	If so, for what reason or reasons is she entitled to same?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	Yes.
2.	She is entitled to separation allowance until Tier pension has been granted or disallowed.


DORCHESTER COUNTY RAILWAY.
Mr. DELISLE:: 1.	Is it the Intention of the Government to construct a railway in the county of Dorchester, across the parishes of Frampton, St. Odilon de Crambourne and St. Leon de Standon?
2.	If so. when will the work be commenced?


Mr. COCHRANE:: The intention of the
Government in this matter will be announced in due course.


LIEUTENANT R. J. MOFFAT.
Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: What were the expenses of Lieutenant R. J. Moffat while stationed in Summerside, P.E.I., in

connection with or as Supply Officer of the 105th Battalion?


Albert Edward Kemp: 


STEAMER C. E. TANNER.
Mr. PROULX:: 1.	Was the steamer, or motor boat, called the C. E. Tanner purchased by the Naval Department at Halifax?
2.	If so, from whom was this boat purchased, and when?
3.	What was the price paid for said steamer?
4.	If chartered, what is the price paid for this boat per day?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	No.
2 and 3. Answered by No. 1.
4. It is understood that the C. E. Tanner is being utilized by Imperial Government officers in Canada.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN.
Mr. CARROLL:: 1.	Who were the medical examiners appointed by the Minister of Militia in the county of Cape Breton to examine recruits since the 4th of August, 1914?
2.	How many recruits were examined by these medical officers?
3.	What amount was paid to each such officer for his services?


UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR PAPERS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. Chisholm.-For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, petitions, etc., in any way referring to an application for a public wharf at Chimney Corners, Inverness Countv, N.S.

[Stage Direction]
On the Notices of Motion:
Mr. KYTE:: For a return giving the names, rank, pay, nature and date of employment and previous service of (a) all officers employed in or connected with the Naval Service at Halifax, including patrol Service;	(b) all civilians appointed since November, 1911. Also giving a list of the number, names and rate of pay of returned soldiers or sailors included in (a).


George William Kyte: For a return showing the names, rank, pay, nature, and date of employment and previous service of, (a) all officers employed in or connected with the Naval Service at Sydney, N.S., including patrol service; and (b) the number, names and rate of pay of returned soldiers or sailors included in the above service.


George William Kyte: I would be willing to amend these orders so as to limit the information desired to the names of the officers who are employed. I think that would very

materially reduce the work necessary to prepare the returns.


John Douglas Hazen: I presume that would meet the difficulty, although I am not quite sure. Perhaps the hon. gentleman had better let the matter stand until to-morrow, and I will ascertain from the department if that will meet the difficulty.
Notices of motion stand.


CANADIAN AVIATION FUND.
[Stage Direction]
In the Orders of the Day:
Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Edmonton):: Have the Government knowledge of the fact that Col. W. H. Merritt, who purports to be secretary of the Canadian Aviation Fund, is collecting or attempting to collect money for the purchase of aeroplanes. The object of the Canadian Aviation Fund is to give help to the firing line by means of trained aviators and aeroplanes. The cost of a machine is $7,600. If the Government have knowledge of Col. W. H. Merritt's operations, have those operations their approval?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: So far as I am informed, the Government have no knowledge of what operations Col. Merritt is carrying on, but inquiry will be made, and my hon. friend will receive an answer, if not to-morrow, as soon as possible thereafter.	.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rainville in the Chair.
Cape Breton telegraph system-branch telegraph line from Washabuck wharf to McKay's Point, $420.
Mr. PUGSLEY:: What is the cause of the sudden demand for assistance to the telephone system?


Mr. REID:: I do not know that there is any increased demand this year. There are items in the estimates for small extensions of the telephone system owned by the Government in different parts of the country, and there will be small expenditures at the different places named. This is simply an extension of three miles of line at this particular point. The superintendent recommended it, and that is why it is being put in.


Mr. McKENZIE:: This little extension is in my riding, and I should like to know something about it. Can the minister tell me which office it is connected with, starting from Washabuck wharf5


John Dowsley Reid: There is a telephone line at present from Washabuck bridge to Waslia-buck Centre. It is intended to extend this line from Washabuck Centre to McKay's Point, three miles.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Where are you going to make the terminus?


John Dowsley Reid: At McKay's point.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Will these be telephone or telegraph offices?


John Dowsley Reid: It is a telephone system.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Are the telephones used anywhere else on the system in the county of Victoria?
Mr. REI1J: They are mostly telegraph lines in that county.


Sir SAM HUGHES:: Is it the policy of the Government to build telephones throughout the country, and why is the Government doing it?


John Dowsley Reid: The Government has a telephone system in different parts of Canada.


Samuel Hughes: Why?


John Dowsley Reid: We have had telephones for many years in certain parts of the country, and this is simply an extension.


Samuel Hughes: I suppose the system is general through all parts of Canada?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Can the hon. minister tell me what communication can be obtained by the telephone system in this county, except for those three miles, which ' are not connected with the town in any way? How will the system be connected up? The whole of the rest of the system all through the county is a Government telegraph line. It is a telegraph line from Orangedale down to Washabuck Centre. The minister tells us he is going to extend that system three miles further down the line, and it is going to be a telephone system. The lines will be no use unless they connect up with some outside system, or connect somewhere with telephones.


John Dowsley Reid: I understand in these districts the telephone system is used at the present time, but the tendency is to change the system, and have a telephone line instead of the telegraph, and, to my mind, that would be more advantageous. But the hon. gentleman can see that, if you have the telephone, you can get the advantage of the telegraph system by telephoning your message to the telegraph office, and asking them to forward it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If the minister will train somebody at that place in the use of the telegraph system, until they get a telephone system established, it would be an advantage. Anybody can use the telephone, but many people cannot operate the telegraph.	-


Mr. CARVELL:: The minister has not propel ly answered the question asked by my hon. friend from Victoria-Haliburton.
It seems to me, after looking over two or three pages of the supplementary estimates, that we are raising a pretty big question. Is the Dominion Government going to establish a telephone system all over Canada, or not? I think that question should be answered. This little transaction only involves an expenditure of $420, they have already a telegraph line to Washabuck, and they are extending a wire, to be used as a telephone wire a distance of three miles, which is not very serious, but you are establishing a principle.
I do not know much about the thing locally, but I do know there is as fine a telephone system in the province of Nova Beotia as can be found in Canada. They have some sort of a municipal system, and their rates are reasonable. Here we find five or six different instances in which the Government is going into the telephone business in the province of Nova Scotia.
I think we should have some policy laid down by the minister, in order that we may know what we .are to look forwiard to. The minister knows very well that if the Government is going into competition with the telephone company one of two things will happen, either the Government will have to buy out the telephone companies, or the companies will have to go to the wall.


John Dowsley Reid: This particular locality is
covered at the present time by a telegraphic system. There are no telephons. The extension we aTe now providing for is a three mile extension to a system which has been in existence for many years. As I understand it, this line is not in competition with any other telephone system in that locality. In British Columbia and in some parts of the province of Quebec where they have no privately-owned telephone systems, the Government has pro- ' vided telegraphie communication for the people. In my opinion it is necessary that those systems should be changed -as quickly as possible, for the reason that it is very difficult to get telegraph operators because of the small rate of pay. It is much easier

to get operators to handle a telephone system.


Samuel Hughes: The reason I asked the question was that there are certain areas in Canada which have no communication with the outside world. If the Government proposes adopting the principle of providing telegraphic and telephonic communication in one part of the country, it is only fair that every section of our great Dominion should have the same privilege. In some of the sparsely settled parts of the riding I have the honour to represent, they have no such communication, and we have had to go down into our pockets to provide funds for the building of our own telephone lines. If those lines are going to be under Government patronage in one place, they must be under Government patronage everywhere.


Mr. GRAHAM:: There are sections of
the riding I represent which are not reached by the Bell Telephone company. I have become a member of a local organization to get telephone, communication to these people. Had I known the Government intended to launch out into new fields in the federal telephone business, I would perhaps have asked the Government to build lines to some of these places. I see one province is to be given $219,000 in the supplementary estimates for telephones. When the people of other parts of the country become aware that the Government is providing telephonic communication in some parts of the country, while they have to construct their own lines, they will be displeased, to put it mildly. Years ago, of course the situation was different. Telephones were a new thing, and there was really only one company. At the present time there are local telephone systems throughout the length and breadth of the land, and we have passed legislation at this session of the House compelling the trunk lines to give connection with the local lines under certain conditions. I do not object to reasonable expenditure to open up the country, but, as my hon. friend (Sir Sam Hughes) says, if it is to be done in one part of the country it should be done everywhere. Within 150 miles of Ottawa there is territory just as remote from telephonic and telegraphic communication as is this community in Nova Scotia.


John Dowsley Reid: In the province of Ontario
the Government has a telephonic system.


George Perry Graham: Where?


John Dowsley Reid: In the Timiskaming district.


George Perry Graham: It is along the line of
railway, probably.


John Dowsley Reid: No, it is not along the railway We have cables to Amherst island, and we have a telephone system in some parts of New Ontario. There are so few people in the district that it would not pay a private company to build a line.


Samuel Hughes: Then, am I to understand that if we come along with our petitions we will get the lines?


John Dowsley Reid: No, not at all. The greater part of the older counties is well settled.


Samuel Hughes: What about the parts which are not settled?	-**


John Dowsley Reid: The municipalities can give aid to any one who would put in private lines. Who in the world would ever build a line there in the districts around Tadous-sac or Chicoutimi? Those people are entitled to some communication with the outer world.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What about Dorchester county?


John Dowsley Reid: The telephone system has been there for many years.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They are putting in a new one there now.


John Dowsley Reid: We are dealing with this particular one now, and it has been established for many years. We are only following out the policy inaugurated several years ago, to give the people in that locality the use of this line.


Mr. NESBITT:: Could the minister tell
me how large a place Washabuck is?


John Dowsley Reid: Perhaps the hon. member
who comes from that district could answer that question.
Mr. McKE'NZIE: Washabuck, which is a small corner of my constituency is about the size of North' Oxford.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: North Oxford is bigger
than the whole of Nova Scotia.


William Pugsley: There is one very objectionable feature about these items. It is that they are brought in so late in the session in the supplementary estimates and in such large amounts. If it was necessary to provide for telegraph and telephone lines, the appropriation ought to have been asked for in the main estimates. The total in the main estimates for this service

is $60,875. The Supplementary Estimates are supposed to be for the purpose of covering items that have been overlooked in the Main Estimates. It is entirely wrong to leave important matters, which might as v ell have been provided for in the Main Estimates, until the Supplementary Estimates are brought down late in the session. While in the Main Estimates we are asked to privide $60,875, we are called upon to vote in the Supplementary Estimates the very large sum of $271,000 for this service, or more than four times the total of the vote contained in the Main Estimates.
I have looked through some of these items. It is evident that it was not considered desirable to put them in the Main Estimates, because the largeness of the amounts would attract public attention and invite public criticism; or that the minister, seeing an election very near at hand, is impelled to realize the importance of putting these items in the Supplementary Estimates in order to gain popularity in the districts which will be affected. It is unfair to Parliament to ask us to vote this very large sum for . this service, distributed over three provinces, and provided for in the Supplementary Estimates.


John Dowsley Reid: I hardly think the hon. member is putting it fairly when he suggests that we are bringing down these Estimates so late in the session on account of an election coming on. These Supplementary Estimates have been down for some time. It has always been customary to bring down such Supplementary Estimates as are necessary during the latter part of the session.
The adjournment for a couple of months and the time we have taken over important Bills has prevented the Estimates being taken up before this. When we made up these ^Estimates we believed and intended that there should not be an election this year.


George Perry Graham: That is the Main Estimates.


John Dowsley Reid: The main estimates and the
supplementaries were prepared long before that. The extension of Parliament was referred to in the speech from the Throne, and these supplementary estimates were already prepared before we knew there would not be an extension of Parliament.


George Perry Graham: Do I understand the hon. gentleman to say that we would not have had any supplementary estimates if there had been an extension granted?


John Dowsley Reid: I say we expected we would have had an extension of Parliament.


George Perry Graham: No, you did not expect that.


John Dowsley Reid: Of course we expected it, because last year the extension was granted and the reasons this year were much stronger why it should be granted. If the hon. gentleman had carried out the same policy that he pursued last year, the reasons being much stronger this year, we should have had an extension of Parliament and we would not have had an election.


George Perry Graham: If the hon. gentleman had done what he promised last year he might have had an extension.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We are going to have an election, and I am going to discuss the reason why this vote is brought down. These items are here, and I am afraid that the minister intends to force them through. This is in line with the general policy that I am protesting against under present conditions. First, the minister brought down the main estimates, and he only asked for $60,000 for all the telegraph and telephone lines in Canada. The votes were largely for repairs. But now he comes with supplementaries late in the session, and he wants between $200,000 and $300,000, and not for .repairs at all. If it were only a question of the little item of $420 that is now under discussion, I would not raise any question about it. But my hon. friend is branching out upon a great scheme of public ownership of utilities in British Columbia, the end of which no man can see. He is asking for $219,000 for the province of British Columbia in addition to $22,400 voted in the main estimates. The item in the main estimates looked all right on its face. It says:
British Columbia-mainland telegraph and telephone lines-general repairs and improvements, $22,400.
That did not look very bad, and, therefore, Parliament might say that it was necessary to vote that in order to put the service in good condition and not allow deterioration to affect it. But he comes forward now with an entirely new policy. It is not a question of repairs at all; it is an absolutely new policy as far as British Columbia is concerned. A new policy also is contemplated in so far as some portions of Nova Scotia are concerned. I am not sufficiently acquainted with the geography of that portion of Nova Scotia to know exactly whether they have a telephone system in any of these places, but they must have in many of them. I cannot conceive that there are half a dozen places in Cape

Breton island where they do not have the telephone. The conclusion is forced upon one's mind that there is some connection between these telegraph lines being converted into telephone lines and the election. I know the gentleman who manipulates affairs in Cape Breton island. His name was mentioned last night.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: Mr. Douglas.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, John C. Douglas, and one becomes suspicious when he sees items like these appearing in the supplementary estimates. I have no objection to the $420 being expended for extending this line three miles, but I am going to vote against this item as a matter of principle. I asked the minister to cut out a quarter of a million dollars at St. John, for which I know a great many people will not thank me, and he has done it. I asked him to cut out a quarter of a million dollars at another place, -which the minister has agreed to do. Now he comes forward with a quarter of a million for telegraph and telephone lines in British Columbia, and I am going to vote against it because I think it is my duty to do so.
I take the ground on broad principles that if everybody is asked to retrench owing to the exigencies of the situation, surely the Government ought to be asked to retrench. They have given us their pledge that they will not embark on any new schemes, and if they cannot build wharves, breakwaters or railroads, surely they are not justified in going on with a great system of telephones, the end of which nobody can see. I am voting against it on that broad ground. I quite agree with the minister that if you have a telegraph line and want to make a short extension it may be better to instal the telephone rather than the telegraph. That is quite reasonable. I know there was a time when it was necessary that the federal Government should extend the telephone line to the Yukon, as private enterprise could not do it. The Government was equally justified in building telegraph lines down the St. Lawrence and into the Saguenay and Chicoutimi districts. Private enterprise would not build up the Saguenay twenty-five years ago, and a line was necessary in order to give those people an outlet. It may have been necessary to build a telegraph line in Cape Breton island, although I do not believe it. But, I do not think it is necessary that this Government should vote $10,000 or $12,000 to extend that system in Cape [DOT] Breton island, or $2,400 for a line in '
the county of Quebec. And surely it is not necessary to spend $2,500 for a telephone line in Dorchester. I am not now saying anything about British Columbia. The whole thing is as plain as the nose on a man's face the Government are starting out for the election and certain men have got in their work and have had these items put in the estimates. I think the Government should drop all these votes.


George William Kyte: Whgn the Government established the telegraph line in Cape Breton, that course was quite justified, but when it comes to establishing telephones in the province of Nova Scotia, that is quite different. The provincial government some years ago passed an Act providing for the incorporation of rural* telephone companies. The provincial government gave aid to these companies sufficient to pay for the wires and insulators, and for the swinging of the wires, so that the shareholders are called upon only to furnish the poles and set them up. As a consequence of that policy we have many rural telephone companies in Nova Scotia and they give a very efficient service. Their systems are connected, under the authority of the Utilities Board at Halifax, with the main telephone system of Nova Scotia. If the Government embark on a system of establishing telephone lines, they will interfere very materially with the enterprise of the people of Nova Scotia, which has already developed a very important system of rural telephones. If the Government contemplated only the extension of the telegraph lines, particularly for short distances like three miles, there could be no real objection, but I do say they are going to interfere with the enterprise and the industry of the people of eastern Nova Scotia and the island of Cape Breton if they establish a system of telephones. We will then have a multiplicity of telephone systems that will only lead to confusion and add to the cost to those who are obliged to use the telephone lines. The subscribers to rural telephone Companies have to pay for their connection with the main telephone system, and if the Government establish a system of their own it means additional tolls to the subscribers, and more evil than good will result from the action of the Government. I do say that at present, in view of the assistance given to the establishing of rural telephone lines in Nova Scotia, this Government is going out of its way to interfere with a development that should be left entirely to the people.


William Pugsley: I propose to move an amendment which I think is in order. I have not it written, but perhaps the minister would consent to its being passed.


George William Kyte: Who is the general superintendent of Government telephone and telegraph lines in Cape Breton?


John Dowsley Reid: The deputy tells me he thinks his name is McKee.


George William Kyte: Tihat is the general superintendent at St. John. He is the manager of the Western Union. There is a man, .1 think, named Livingstone.


John Dowsley Reid: He is a line repairer under Mr. McKee.


George William Kyte: He has general charge of all lines in Cape Breton.


John Dowsley Reid: Under Mr. McKee.
Mr. KYTE. Then there is a local man in each county responsible for the making of repairs. Who is responsible for seeing that these assistants actually do their work?


John Dowsley Reid: Of course the system follows down from the general superintendent to each individual officer.


George William Kyte: If an assistant repairer was not doing his work, it would be the general repairer who would report to the Government.


John Dowsley Reid: He would report to his
superior officer.


George William Kyte: Who would see that a man who was not doing his duty was dismissed. I have a case in my county where that practice was not followed. I shall read the correspondence, which was produced in the House a few days ago, in answer to an order for all correspondence etc., relating to the dismissal of Hector Urquhart, as linemen between Grand river and Enon, Cape Breton county, and the appointment of Dan A. McLennan in his place. The correspondence reads:
Glace Bay, C.B., Sept. 16, 1916. Hon. Robert Rogers,
Minister of Public Works,
Ottawa.
Re Government Telegraphs.
Dear Mr. Minister:-
I hereby recommend the dismissal of Hector Urquhart of Grand river, Richmond county, as telegraph line repairman, and the appointment of Dan A. McLennan, Head of Loch Lomond, as his successor.
The new appointee is more suitably located for giving attention to the repair work on the line, besides he is more efficient.
Yours faithfully,
(Sgd.) Jno. C. Douglas.
Telegraph Service, P.W.D.,
Ottawa, Sept, 27, 1916.
John C. Douglas, Esq.,
Glace Bay, N.S.
Local Repairer, Grand river-Enon.
Dear Sir:-
Having reference to your letter of the 16th instant to the Hon. the Minister of Public Works, I beg to acquaint you that an authorization has been given for the discontinuance of the services of Mr. Hector Urquhart and the appointment of Mr. Dan A. McLennan, Head of Lock Lomond, to succeed him.
The arrangement is being put into effect forthwith.
Yours faithfully,
(Sgd.) D. H. Keeley, General Superintendent.
Then there are the following letters:
Ottawa, Sept. 27, 1916. Hector Urquhart, Esq.,
Grand river, C.B.
Dear Sir:
I have from the Hon. the Minister of Public Works an instruction to discontinue your services as local repairer for the telegraph line between Grand river and Enon. You might please deliver to our agent at Grand river the tools, etc., which you have in your charge. The superintendent at St. John, Mr. C. W. McKee, is being advised of this requirement and will send you in due course whatever -payment is due to you to the end of the present month.
Yours faithfully,
(Sgd.) D. H. Keeley,
Gen.-Supt.
Ottawa, Sept. 27, *1916. Dan. A. McLennan, Esq.,
Head of Loch Lomond, C.B.
Dear Siv:
I have from the Hon. the Minister of Public Works an authorization given on the recom mendation of Mr. J. C. Douglas for your appointment as local repairer for the Government telegraph lines between Grand river and Enon, a distance of about 19 J miles. The pay attached to this position is fifty dollars ($50) per annum, without any other allowance, and you will be expected to keep the line clear of interruption and promptly make trips over it for that purpose whenever called upon to do so by the Superintendent, Mr. C. W. McKee, at St. John, N.B., or his representative, Mr. A E. Hoyt at North Sydney. Anything in the way of overhauling or reconstruction work when required will be attended by the general repairer for the district. The tools, etc., which have been in the care of the former repairer are being turned over to our agent at Grand river to whom you might please apply for them. Mr. McKee is being? advised of your appointment, please let him know when you are ready and the payment for your ser-



vices will begin from the date you enter upon your duties.
Tours faithfully,
(Sgd.) D. H. Keeley,
Gen.-Supt.
Ottawa, Sept. 27, 1916.
C.	W. McKee, Esq.,
Supt. Govt. Telegraph Service,
St. John, N.B.
Dear Sir:-Local Repairer-Grand River

Enon.
A change in the above position has heeti ordered whereby Mr. Hector Urquhart is to be retired and will be succeeded by Mr. Dan. A. McLennan of Head of Loch Lomond.
You might please see what it is contained in the two accompanying copies of letters sent to Messrs. Urquhart and McLennan to-day and take such further action as is found to be called for.
Tours faithfully,
(Sgd.) D. H. Keeley,
Gen.-Supt.
That is the history of this extraordinary transaction. The facts are these:	Mr. E.
D.	McKillop who had the Government telegraph office at Grand River falls, and whose wife was the telegraph operator removed from that district about a year ago.	The	telegraph	office,	therefore,became vacant. Two applicants for the position presented themselves. One was this man D. A. McLennan and the other was	a man	named	McLeod.
They were equally deserving in the eyes of Mr. John C. Douglas, who holds the patronage -for the county of Richmond. Mr. Douglas was unable to give both the position of telegraph operator, so he decided that he would have Mr. Hector Urquhart dismissed from the trifling position which be held as assistant to the repairer at. St. Peter's, and bestow the position upon Mr. Dan A. McLennan. Through the adoption of this course, both his supporters would be reconciled; both would get some consideration for their political services. The minister said that the general repairer would be responsible to the Government for the proper discharge of the duties of the assistant repairers. That would appear to be reasonable and proper. If Mr. Hector Urquhart was not properly discharging the duties of his position, one would imagine that this Government would have received a report back from the local superintendent of lines to Mr. McKee at St. John, which report would have been transmitted to the department. No such thing happened ; there was no question whatever about the efficiency with which Mr. 
Urquhart was discharging his 4 p.m. duties. He bad been assistant to the repairer for seven or eight years; no complaints had ever been made. If any complaints were to be made on account of any deficiency on his part, those complaints . would come through the repairer at St. Peter's. But, upon the recommendation of Mr. John C. Douglas, the dispenser of patronage in that part of the country, who asserted that Mr. Hector Urquhart was not efficiently discharging his duties, the Government, without obtaining any report from their own officials, discharged Mr. Urqu-hart from the position which he held and handed over his paltry salary of $50 to Mr. Dan. A. McLennan, solely because of the dispute which had arisen as to which applicant should receive the position in the telegraph office. I am glad to see the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) in his place, because the noble sentiments that he expressed two years ago, in which he deprecated the idea that patronage should continue, still re-echo through this Chamber. Only two days ago, when the member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles) suggested that -there might be patronage in connection with the appointment of a commission that was under discussion at that time, the minister indignantly repudiated the idea that such would be the case. It is a matter of regret that the principles adhered to by the Minister of Trade and Commerce have not been adopted by his colleagues in the Cabinet. We have here the most contemptible instance of political partisanship ever heard of in a county where many instances have occurred in the last four or five years. Appeals are being made to all classes of the community to make sacrifices on account of the conditions in which we	find	ourselves;	appealsare being	made to all	political
parties to forget politics, to get together, to form a union government, to devote all their energies towards carrying on the war. While these professions of a desire for union among the people are being made, cabinet ministers resort to the most contemptible means of persecution of those who are not of the same political faith as themselves. I realize that nothing we can say on this side of the House will change the temper and spirit of the Government or the principles upon which it acts, but .it is well that while these professions are being made by gentlemen upon the Government benches and by those sitting behind them; while they assert that they have eliminated politics entirely from all considerations of govern

ment, and that they honestly desire all political parties to unite for the purpose of carrying on the war, it is well that these instances should be brought before the public in order to show the people how hollow is the hypocrisy practised by lion, gentlemen opposite.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Kyte) is very much exercised over the fact that the late Minister of Public Works (Hon. Robert Rogers) took some advice from Mr. John C. Douglas. This is not the first time the hon. member has brought the name of Mr. John C. Douglas before the House. Every session an attack is made upon Mr. Douglas. My only knowledge of Mr. Douglas is that obtained through his visits to Ottawa, but I have always found him an upright and honourable man. I do not think that I am the only one who has confidence in Mr. Douglas. He placed himself before the constituents of the district which my hon. friend represents, or a portion of it, and if I remember rightly, he carried the constituency by an overwhelming majority. The people in that district, therefore, hold Mr. Douglas in great esteem; they showed by their vote that they preferred him to the gentleman who opposed him. Simply because Mr. Douglas places before the Government at Ottawa the requests of the people whom he has the honour to represent, is he to be slandered by the hon. gentleman? Is it to be said that the only way the people of my hon. friend's constituency can get fair play is by the adoption of his recommendations? With all due respect to the hon. member, if the patronage of his constituency were left in his hands, I would say: God help the Conservatives in that district.
That is my opinion of the hon. member. I am not saying it unfairly. I believe the hon. member has so much sympathy for his own friends that he would supply them first with all that they could get, and after that there would 'be nothing left for the Conservatives. The hon. member has also stated that this Government has been preaching that, since they have been in power, they have been treating those of the opposite political faith fairly. That is a fact. We have been dealing fairly with and keeping on all the officials, unless, by their own actions, they are entitled to be dismissed. I say, with all frankness, that that has been the case, and it is unfair for the hon. member to make such statements so far as public officials are concerned. Officials in both the Inside and Outside Ser-
340i
vices would justify the statement I have just made. The hon. member, because some officials have been dismissed on account of actions of their own, makes this onslaught to-day. Mr. John C. Douglas represents this particular constituency in the local legislature.


George William Kyte: He does not represent this constituency.


John Dowsley Reid: He represents a constituency in the local legislature.


George William Kyte: The adjoining one.


John Dowsley Reid: Well, the adjoining one. He has made the statement that he believes the people of that district would be better served if the office was more conveniently situated. The Great Northwestern Telegraph company, or the' Canadian Pacific Railway company, change their offices every day in towns, villages, and districts to suit the convenience of the people of these localities. Just because Mr. Douglas happens to be the local member, a Conservative, and because the people of that district have done him the honour to choose him as a candidate at the next election to oppose some one-I do not know whether it is the hon. member or not-the hon. niem-ber makes this onslaught. I believe the representations of Mr. Douglas are entitled to consideration, and I do not believe he deserves the remarks made by the hon. member.


George William Kyte: The minister entirely loses the point of my criticism. I have no fault to find with the Government accepting political recommendations from Mr. John C. Douglas, as he is in charge of the patronage of that district. That, however, is not the case in this instance. Mr. John C. Douglas states that Mr. Urquhart is inefficient, that he ought to be dismissed for inefficiency, and another man appointed. What I find fault with is that there is no report from Mr. Urquhart's superior officer as to the manner in which he has been carrying on his work. If Mr. Douglas had said that Mr. Urquhart was a political partisan, and that, therefore, he ought to be dismissed, then on account of the precedents established by this Government during the last four or five years, nobody would be surprised, that his recommendation should be carried out, but he could not say that about Mr. Urquhart.


John Dowsley Reid: Did not Mr. Douglas recommend this change in the location of the

office in order that the people might be better served?


George William Kyte: Is not the man placed over Mr. Urquhart the proper person to make a report to the department on that point?


John Dowsley Reid: He may state that this man is well qualified to discharge his duties, but he cannot state as to- the suitability of the location of the office. The people in the surrounding district would know what is most convenient for them.


George William Kyte: The general repairer for the telegraph lines lives at St. Peter's and goes over that territory week after week. He has on the line two or three assistants who have been there for the last five or six years. If Mr. Urquhart is not suitably situated to discharge his duties, or if he is inefficient, one would imagine that the Government would have received a report from Mr. Urquhart's superior officer, that report transmitted, if you will, by Mr. Douglas to the department. There is no suggestion from the general repairer for that district that Mr. Urquhart is inefficient or that he is not suitably located. Mr. Douglas wanted the office for a political friend. He could not trump up a charge of political partisanship against Mr. Urquhart, so he wrote a letter to the minister containing this statement:
The new appointee is more suitably located tor giving attention to the repair work on the line, besides he is more efficient.
One would imagine that the minister _ would have transmitted Mr. Douglas' let" ter to Mr. McKee, the superintendent over that section of the telegraph line, and got a report from him. Nothing whatever was done in that direction. Mr. Douglas' unsupported statement that Mr. Urquhart was inefficient in the discharge of his duties was accepted by the minister, and his dismissal was immediately asked for. The minister expressed a pious hope that God might help the Conservative party. If that is the best example that can be given of defence for their conduct, then I say: God help the Conservative party in the hands of the minister.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: We are lectured almost out of sight this afternoon because we happened to mention the name of this saintly, man, John C. Douglas. If the minister will listen to me for a moment, he will understand why we do not like the idea of a government led and directed * by Mr. John C. Douglas. Mr. Douglas is the local member for the county of Cape Bre-

ton, and if the minister would follow his history and the ways by which he succeeded in creating certain dissensions in the mining communities, so that he managed to secure a majority, he would not be very proud that this gentleman represents the county of Cape Breton. I had the privilege of meeting Mr. John C. Douglas in a local contest in the county of Victoria. He had in his hand a telegram which he said was from the Minister of Railways (Mr. Cochrane) telling him that a Mr. Angus R. Campbell, who had been dismissed by the Minister of Railways from the West Bay Road station on the Intercolonial would be restored to his position in a very short time. The telegram arrived in the county while the contest was on and while I was there with Mr. Douglas. Knowing the Minister of Railways, I was very much surprised that he would send such a telegram. I did not believe he had done so; I told the people I did not believe it; but Mr. Douglas was the big man that he is in the estimation of the Minister of Customs and acting Minister of Public Works, and people around there believed that he had received that telegram from the Minister of Railways. ' Mr. Douglas fooled this poor fellow who was dismissed and his friends into voting for his party. The man who was elected in the contest was unseated on account of bribery and corruption. Mr. Douglas went on the stand at the trial; the copy of this telegram was produced to him, and he was asked on oath: " Did you get this telegram from Mr. Cochrane?" He said:	"Yes, not only did I get the telegram from Mr. Cochrane, but I discussed the matter with Mr. Cochrane." Shortly afterwards I moved in this House for all the correspondence and papers .passed between the Minister of Railways and* Mr. Douglas. Papers were brought down, and the return is still obtainable in this House, but there was never such a telegram sent. To make sure, I went to the minister and said: "Surely Mr. Douglas would not first lie .about this thing to me and then go on the stand and. swear to it." I asked the minister if there was such a telegram, and be told me that he never bad, at least up to that date, had the slightest communication of any kind, by telegram or otherwise, with this man Douglas.
Still he went lying -around the country, representing that Mr. Cochrane was trying to interfere in a local election. Mr. Campbell was never restored, and the minister never promised to restore him, but he got a few votes on the strength of ttfe state-

ment. He got into the box and swore that a thing, which never existed, was true. That is the character of man the minister has in Mr. Douglas. His name is like a red rag to gentlemen who want to do things in a decent and honest way. If the minister desires to be led by John C. Douglas, he will have lots of trouble. I am simply giving a small part of his character.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: Is the minister not going to consider the question whether he should pass these estimates for telegraph lines? I see no reason why telegraph lines should be built in Cape Breton, and not in other parts of Nova Scotia. It has been drawn to the minister's attention already that we have a very good telephone system in that province, and there are scarcely any of the rural districts which are not now supplied with telephones. The local government has done a great deal to encourage the telephone system of the province. They have a superintendent who looks over the ground when any new line is to be established, and the government gives financial assistance, and the farmers and fishermen can, without expense get incorporation to organize telephone companies. There is a subsidy of $20 a mile which, as the hon. gentleman from Richmond stated, in ordinary times paid for the wire, so that the local people have only to provide the poles, and set them up, and provide the boxes which is done at very little expense. In this way provincial government aid has enabled the people of Nova Scotia to have rural telephones in all the districts. Unless we are going to embark on a Federal Government telephone system, and supply such places as Mabou harbour. Margaree harbour and Baddeck with telephones, I do not understand what justification there can be for this vote. There must be something behind this that we do not understand. No one from that locality will tell the minister that it is necessary to spend this public money in that district, unless it is for the accommodation of one or two friends of John C. Douglas. No doubt it is a political scheme, and I do not think the minister should ask the House, at a time like this when we are endeavouring to save money, to embark on the work of constructing these lines, unless the minister agrees to . embark generally on the construction of telephone lines. We should, not start this construction unless we adopt some kind of a policy on the whole question. The minister is projecting not only
these lines in, Nova Scotia, but lines in the other provinces of Canada, which we find provided for in these estimates. If we pass this item for the construction of telephone lines in Novia Scotia without any protest, we will be committed to the construction of telephone lines in other provinces. We want to know what the minister's policy is. Is he going to build telephone lines all through Canada, or is he not? If he is not,
I do not think these lines proposed in Nova Scotia are justified a.t all.


John Dowsley Reid: In Cape Breton we have, on the Government system, 948 miles of lines, of which 719 are operated by telephone, with 88 offices, and 129 operated by telegraph, with 45 offices. This system has 'been established for years.


John Howard Sinclair: I am talking about extensions.


John Dowsley Reid: This is for half a dozen extensions. It is not a new policy. $3,400 of this item is for re-poling and general repairs. Every year since the system was started small extensions have 'been made. Whether it is a government or a private system, small extensions will always be necessary. [DOT]


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister establish telephone lines in my constituency if I send a list of those that are necessary?


John Dowsley Reid: None of these systems are on the mainland, which is served by a private corporation. If we acceded to the hon. gentleman's request we would be starting on a new policy, so far as the mainland of Nova Scotia is concerned, and that question would have to be considered 'before I could give an answer.


John Howard Sinclair: Are not those lines in British Columbia and the other provinces on the mainland?


John Dowsley Reid: They are in outside districts, which are sparsely settled, and where you , could not get a private corporation to build a telephone system. Those systems were established years ago. We had them in the Yukon long ago-.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: I see here an item for a branch telephone line from Inverness to Mabou harbour. There as two possible routes which that line might follow. I want to know which route it will follow. I am quite in accord with the idea of constructing that branch, because it is very necessary. I have been advocating it for years.


John Dowsley Reid: That is from Inverness to Sight point, Sight point to Mahon mines, and Mabou mines to Mabou harbour.


Alexander William Chisholm: What is the distance?


John Dowsley Reid: Five miles from Inverness to Port Ban, and two and one half miles from Port Ban to Sight point, seven miles from-Sight point to Mabou Mines, and three miles from Mabou mines to Mabou harbour; a total of seventeen and one-half miles.


Alexander William Chisholm: This line goes from
Margaree harbour to Chimney comer. How is it that this line stops at Chimney corner contrary to the promise made to me six months ago? I cannot understand why the line should be stopped there, because that is only a short distance from Margaree harbour, and just as important a section of the country lies to the south of that. 1 would expect the line to go at least as far as Ste. Rose and Dunvegan to serve the whole settlement there. I have been advocating this for the last two years and got the assurance of the Government that the line would extend from Margaree to Dun-vegan. I think the line should stop at Dun-vegan. I am not finding fault with this construction, because it is only in accord with the suggestions I have been making for two years and the Government is only carrying out part of their promise. The only fault I find is that they are not carrying the line as far as they promised.


John Dowsley Reid: I understand the hon. gentleman thinks that this line running from Margaree harbour to .Chimney corner, five miles,.should be continued six miles further.


Alexander William Chisholm: I should think it should go six miles further, because there is a very important settlement there all along the line to Dunvegan.


John Dowsley Reid: The proposal of the minister this year is to take the five miles and in another year he will consider the extension. These are all small extensions, and there are requests for further extensions. They must be extended to these different places from time to time as the Government can see its way clear to extend them. That has been the policy of all governments for the last thirty or forty years in regard to these telephone and telegraph systems. The hon. member knows that members on both sides of this House from those different places which are dependent on telephone and telegraph lines owned by the Govern-

ment have asked for these things, and this is part of what has been asked for.


Alexander William Chisholm: There is only one complaint I have to make, and it is the same as the complaint I made last year. So far as the county of Inverness is concerned, the policy is not an old one at all. It was inaugurated by the present Government in 1911. The late Government had provided for telegraph lines in certain sections of the county, which were in process of completion when the present Government took charge. This Government converted, the telegraph system into a telephone system. I cannot understand why the Department of Public Works would not extend the same privilege to our people as would be extended to them by any private telephone corporation. For instance, if John Smith, or Tom Jones, wishes to get a telephone in his house he should be able to do so. The Government will not permit this, however. I cannot understand why they insist on placing the telephone offices in the hands of their own friends, to the exclusion of every one else. I submitted this complaint to the Minister of Public Works last year. If it is the intention of the Government to serve the public, I cannot see any reason why they should refuse telephones to any person who is prepared to pay for them. I know the system as it is now is nothing more nor less than a little bit of political machinery. I have no doubt if my own party came into power, and if we were to allow certain advisers to guide us, the same system would be followed. Personally, 1 would not stand for it, and the best element of the population would not stand for it. To my mind it is a preposterous condition of affairs that you cannot go to any of these telephones and talk to your friends without everybody excepting your friends hearing what you have to say.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Does the minister want any further evidence of the absolute viciousness of the whole system, beyond what has been given by the hon. member for Inverness?


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member has just said he requested this line.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Think of a telephone
system being installed for the benefit of the public, and a Liberal cannot get a telephone in his house even if he is willing to pay for it, and cannot hold a conversation over the telephone without every Conservative in the place hearing what he has to say. The minister wants Parliament to

vote nearly $300,000 to perpetuate a system of that kind. Of course, the minister is not responsible for this condition of affairs, and I sympathize with him. He is working under an existing system, and he is forced to ooane here and put this through. At the same time, any man who. has any idea of right and wrong must rebel against the perpetration of such a system. If you are going to run a telephone line for the benefit of the public why cannot every man get an instrument if he is willing to pay for it and comply with the requirements? I am a director of the 'New Brunswick Telephone company, and I can speak with some knowledge of the business. If any officer of our company refused to instal an instrument, for a man who was prepared to pay for it and to comply with the requirements, such an officer would not last ten minutes. Just as long as this Government, or I think any other government in Canada, tries to operate telephones, or railways, or electric lights, or any other public service in Canada, just so long will you have this contemptible, small, party patronage. It seems to- me the time has come when the Government should be big enough to get away from this. I am not taking any " holier than thou attitude," and I admit if our party came into power many people would wish to perpetuate the same contemptible little system. It seems to me there must be a great change of sentiment in Canada before any Government can carry on these systems and make them of any practical benefit to the public. The whole principle is so vicious that I feel the minister would be justified in abandoning it entirely, not only in Nova Scotia, but in Dorchester county and everywhere else, and when the war is over let us see if we cannot get back to some sort of business principles. If the Government is going to operate telephones, let it make some arrangement with the local people to go out of business, then take over the lines and give a really useful and businesslike service. There must be many places in the island of Cape Breton where they have telephone communication at the present time? Are there no. telephone systems in Inverness?


Alexander William Chisholm: Yes, but not sufficient. We want to get more.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The heading of this item is somewhat misleading. I asked the minister if this little extension from Washabuck Wharf to McKay's point was a telegraph line or a telephone line, and the minister told me it was a telephone line. If it is a
telegraph line I have no fault to find, because it is a continuation of the line which is there already.


John Dowsley Reid: The deputy minister informed me it was a telephone line, but that is a mistake. It is a telegraph line, and it is so marked on the map.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That is certainly sensible, because it is a continuation of a telegraph line already in existence.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What are the rules and regulations governing the location of instruments, the granting of privileges, the tolls or rentals, the revenue received, and the operating expenses? I would like the minister to tell us just how bad it ft, from an economic standpoint.


John Dowsley Reid: The information my hon. friend is asking for is published.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What is the deficit?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know what the deficit is. We have quite a telegraph and telephone system in Canada, comprising about 11,600 miles altogether.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: How many instruments have you?


John Dowsley Reid: I could not say offhand. Of course, you cannot expect much of a revenue from many of these places. It costs a great deal of money to build a line, and in many sections the country is sparsely settled. My hon. friend may be right in saying that probably the time is coming when this whole system should be revised, but it is a system which has grown up, and these extensions have to be made. I do not see that we can do anything else, unless we took over the whole thing.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I will admit that so far as Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and possibly Ontario lines are concerned, the system may not be so reprehensible, because there you are to some extent face to face with existing conditions. Quebec and British Columbia are different, and I have some doubt as to the advisability-


Francis Cochrane: There are none in Ontario.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, I find this item in the estimates.
Bath, Amherst Island telephone line-reconstruction and improvement, $2,200.
There is one part of my question to which the minister has not replied, and that is: What are the conditions of the service?

How do people obtain instruments and what rentals or tolls are charged? We all have some idea what it is costing for telephone service generally and I would like to know what people are - paying for this service. I would like also to know if what my hon. friend from Inverness (Mr. Chisholm) says is correct. If it be true that nobody can get telephones, except a few picked out by the patronage committees for the purpose of listening to all that is going over the line, there would not be much business done over a line of that kind.


John Dowsley Reid: I heard the remark of the hon. member for Inverness and it strikes me that it would be a remarkable system if it wtts carried on in that way and if it is being carried on in that way, it will be remedied. It would not be fair to have a system that only those who might be supporting the political party in power would be allowed to use, and conversations were permitted to be publicly known. With reference to the other question as to the conditions under which the telephone and telgraph services are given to the public, I might say that we have 10,300 miles of telegraph lines. There is only one office and one operator in each locality. There are 1,300 miles of telephone lines throughout Canada. My information is that people living along the line are entitled to telephones on payment of a rental. The rental varies in different localities. There is no regular rate. It just depends on the different settlements.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Does the minister mean to say that they have no schedule by which a man can say: "I am entitled to a telephone if I pay so much a year"?


John Dowsley Reid: It differs in different localities.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: How could it differ? If you have a telephone line in Cape Breton, does the minister mean to say there is no schedule by which a man can shy: "If I pay a rental of $15, or $18, or $21 a year, I can get an instrument"? Is it as bad as that? If it is, it is worse than the condition pointed out by my hon. friend from Inverness, because in my friend's case the use of this service is confined to one political party. If on the other hand, there is no schedule and they can give one friend a telephone for $10 and the next one a telephone for $15, the minister is discriminating as between his own friends.


John Dowsley Reid: My information is that the
rates vary. The rate in one locality may

be more than it is in another. When a telephone line is constructed in Inverness or any other locality, the Government w'ill charge a rental that will pay for the maintenance and cost of construction of the line. They are not making a lot of money out of it. They want to give the people the benefit of this service at the lowest rate. In some localities the line may cost more than in others. It is not like a private corporation that is in it to make profits.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: As much as the public utility boards will allow them.


John Dowsley Reid: They may possibly do that
in New Brunswick.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is done in Ontario too.


John Dowsley Reid: In Ontario the service is
pretty good, but there are some parts of Canada where it is not as good as in Ontario or New Brunswick. That is the reason why the rates vary.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the rate in Cape Breton?


John Dowsley Reid: I have not got it before me.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister ought
to have that information.


John Dowsley Reid: I will get it.


John Howard Sinclair: All we ever heard about this telegraph service in Cape Breton was in connection with the Victoria by-election. It was used by the Conservative party to carry messages free for the Conservative party prior to the election. It was thrown absolutely open. They sent as many messages as they pleased to people along the line and paid nothing for the service. It was proven at the trial that any messages sent by tne -other side were open to them and that there was no secrecy about the messages. That seems to bear out the theory of my hon. friend from Inverness (Mr. Chisholm) that this telegraph and telephone system is just an annex to the patronage committee of the Conservative party in Cape Breton. That is one reason why we would like to have more information. I would like the minister to tell the committee if these lines are free to the Conservative party in Cape Breton and, if he is charging anything to others, what amount is he charging. My hon. friend from Inverness has made the statement that the department does not give accommodation to people along the line if they are not of the right political stripe. That is rather a serious charge.

I do not want to vote for this appropriation, although it is small, unless the minister will say that	every
man along tihe line, of whatever stripe of politics he may be, will be entitled to hook on the line provided he pays for it at a uniform rate. My hon. friend from Inverness has stated that he had complained last year that people who had made application had been unable to get the telephone service while the country is paying for the lines. Will the minister say that in future any man who applies for a telephone, lives up to the rules, whatever they are, and pays his money, will be entitled to the service?


John Dowsley Reid: I will certainly say that. If the telephone service is there, every man, irrespective of what his politics are, must have a telephone in accordance with the rules that have been laid down for that particular line. I will find out if there are any complaints and, if there are, they will be attended to. I have sent for the rates. This line has been there for many years. I suppose that while my hon. friends opposite were in power for fifteen or sixteen years the line was carried on.


Alexander William Chisholm: No, the telephone has been in existence only for the last five years.


John Dowsley Reid: That is only in that constituency, but there are other parts where it must have been for a longer period.


Alexander William Chisholm: That was the telegraph line.


John Dowsley Reid: If there has been any change in the telegraph or telephone system, or if the limes are being used as the hon. member has said, that would be most unfair and unjust, and I do not think any minister would stand for it for a minute, or permit any operator in charge of an office to be guilty of such conduct.


Mr. MORPHY:: Are there not public pay stations with cabinets?


John Dowsley Reid: There are public pay stations into which any person can go and talk so that the operator cannot hear.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Then how does the want of secrecy occur?


John Dowsley Reid: They have their public places to talk.


Alexander William Chisholm: No.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No. There is no such thing on Cape Breton Island as a pay station with a cabinet. The telephone instrument is put into the kitchen of somebody who happens to be the head worker for the party.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman does not know, he has not been there himself.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am properly describing the conditions. I have been in Cape Breton island a good many times, and I know something about what goes on down there. Talking about having a cabinet with any secrecy in a public telephone system on the island of Cape Breton-you might as well talk about finding a white blackbird. They do not do it that way.


George Green Foster: That is true of some other telephone systems is it not?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: To some extent.


George Green Foster: People are very curious.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: But in other places they make a pretense of secrecy. Not so in Cape Breton Island. Does the department rent telephones to subscribers or simply put an instrument in some person's house and call that a station from which the people may telephone? I had an idea that there was no such thing there as rental to subscribers. People simply use sufficient political influence to have a telephone put in somebody's kitchen and then the neighbours go and talk over the instrument in the kitchen while the family carry on their conversation.


George Green Foster: It cannot be that way unless it is a thing inherited in 1911 by my hon. friend.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There were no telephones then, they were all telegraphs.


George Perry Graham: These listening boards seem to have been established since 1911. I want to ask the minister if he thinks it right, under present conditions, to put in the estimates $272,000 for telephone in British Columbia?


John Dowsley Reid: That is not all for telephones, seme of it is for repairs to present lines.


George Perry Graham: There is $272,000 for telephone and telegraph systems, and a great portion of that is for new lines. For repairs to existing lines, provision should be made, because otherwise these lines would go out of use, and the people who now have the accommodation should not be deprived of it; we should keep up our property. But when the minister starts out on

the wholesale construction of new lines, it is not fair to the country. Of this $272,000, I imagine $50,000 or $60,000 would repair all his lines, and to that extent no person could object to the vote. But the people of Canada, in their present temper, with our taxation and the financial pressure now upon us, no matter what their politics may be, will wonder how the Government can justify the plunging into an expenditure of more than a quarter of a million dollars where perhaps $50,000 or $60,000 would do. Every person is making some sacrifice, and if the people who will be accommodated by this large new expenditure were asked, I have no doubt that 95 per cent of them would say: Let it stand until after the war is over. That is the spirit of the Canadian people. We heard this afternoon about a request made by Lieutenant-Colonel Merritt. We have all received that request. One of the great needs of the Allies to-day is greater strength in the air. We read to-day, yesterday, and the day before, of attacks made on London and other parts of England by air raiders. Colonel Merritt asks that a large number of air fighting machines be procured, and so necessary does he think they are that he is soliciting private aid. With this vote of $272,000, thirty-eight air fighting machines could be procured. If we took $60,000 out of this $272,000 for repairs, and I submit that would be enough, we could send the Allies thirty of these air fighting machines. I leave it to the minister to say to which purpose we ought to devote this money.


Mr. DAVIDSON:: I am not surprised that the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) should oppose publie ownership. I understand that he is a director and shareholder in a very profitable electric light company and also in a very profitable telephone company, a privately owned corporation; and it is not uncommon for men in those positions to resist any advance along the line of public ownership. But if I have observed the attitude of the public correctly, the whole trend is towards the public ownership- of these public utilities, and although these big financiers, who are looking for big profits, may resist and protest, this wave of public ownership is coming over this country. The hon. member for Carleton and all the other vested interests in the country notwithstanding, public ownership is going to prevail in this country, and the people are going to be served well.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is the first time
I was ever called a big financier. I do not rMr. Graham.]
know whether to take that as complimentary or otherwise.


Avard Longley Davidson: I think my hon. friend is fast approaching that class, and if his company is allowed to operate these concerns, which I believe are very successful, he will approach that class, if he is not in it already.
I am a little surprised that hon. gentlemen representing Nova Scotia constituencies have not arisen to defend the maintenance by the Government of telephone and telegraph lines in Cape Breton. I am not particularly acquainted with the locality but I have been there several times, and my observation has been that the telephone and telegraph services there are of great convenience to the people. I refer particularly to North Cape Breton -and Victoria. There are in that county large sections where the people are very much isolated and would be almost out of the world if they were not kept in touch with other parts of the province by means of the telegraph. Without it they would never get news or be able to summon a doctor, as no private company would think of establishing a telephone or telegraph line there for profit. Such a line must be run at a loss. But the people are a deserving people; they are doing a good work; they are engaged in fishing and producing wealth for the country, and I think it is only just that- the Government should spend money in their behalf.
I should be sorry if the Government curtailed a public service of- this kind. I was amazed at the assertion made by the -member for Inverness (Mr. Chisholm) in regard to the partisan manner in which, as he alleges, the system i.s conducted. I would not doubt the word of my hon. friend;
I do not believe that he would deliberately deceive the people, but I am inclined to think that he has been victimized; he has been wrongly informed. I should be surprised, indeed, if, in a certain village where there was a telephone line, a man would be refused a telephone because he was a Liberal and another man would be given one because he was a Conservative.


Alexander William Chisholm: It was a surprise to me.


Avard Longley Davidson: I would like the hon. gentleman to give the chapter and verse;
I would like him to give the names. The hon. gentleman would not dare go into the county of Inverness and make the statements that he has made here to-day.
I do not believe that anything of the kind

is done. It is true that a man living remote from the main line might make application for a telephone and the authorities, upon consideration, might decide that it was not practicable to grant his request. But that is what private corporations are doing. The company of the member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) does not put in at the regular rate a telephone for every person who asks for it; it does not run private wires six or seven miles for the sake of giving service to one person. So that quite as much complaint could be made about the operation of telephones and telegraphs by private corporations in Nova Scotia as could be made respecting the operation of lines by the Government. The hon. gentleman speaks about the lack of a public telephone. In every rural community in Nova Scotia the same method is followed as that which is followed by the Government in Cape Breton county. Perhaps in a certain locality a public telephone will be placed in somebody's kitchen. A man comes in and uses the phone; somebody on the line may hear his message. But you cannot expect in a rural community all the facilities and accommodations that are afforded in cities. The Government telephones are operated in Nova Scotia just as other privately owned telephone systems are operated under similar circumstances. There is a regular scale of rates; the public are served much in the same way, but with this difference: the private corporation could not be induced to serve some of the territories that are served by Government telephone systems. Through the extension of the (government phones to these remote districts, great convenience is 5 p.m. enjoyed by the people. I think the people would resent the suggestion that the Government should withdraw from this business and allow privately owned and operated telephone systems to serve the country. So far from suggesting that government ownership of telephones be curtailed, I would say that we ought to enlarge and extend the operation of such government owned public utilities.


Alexander William Chisholm: I do not know why my hon. friend is so lavish with his challenges. He does not know the first thing about the matter; he does not know any more about the district that I have in mind than a babe unborn.


Avard Longley Davidson: May I ask the hon. gentleman to be good enough to give the names and the places where, as he states, such discrimination occurred?


Alexander William Chisholm: I wish the hon. gentleman would be good enough to sit down until I have finished. I called the attention of the Minister of Public Works to this matter two years ago. At that time, if my memory serves me correctly, the minister said that it was his policy not to rent phones to anybody. [DOT]


Mr. CURRIE:: Do any private companies operate in that part of the country?


Alexander William Chisholm: Yes, but not in this particular section where the lines are to be built. My hon. friend challenged me to give instances of cases where Liberals were refused phones. I could give him a dozen instances. I challenge the-hon. gentleman to name one person in the district of North Inverness who is a Liberal and who has a phone. There is not one instance. I would no more use one of those phones if I had a political message to send than I would hang myself.


Avard Longley Davidson: I challenge the hon.
gentleman to give names and places and to inform the committee where any Liberal has been discriminated against.


Alexander William Chisholm: I will satisfy my hon. friend: North East Mairgaree and South West Margaree.


Avard Longley Davidson: Give the names.


Alexander William Chisholm: I refuse to be catechised by my hon. friend to that extent. I will not answer all his petty questions.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The minister was to give information to the committee as to the rates charged, the rentals, the difference between the price charged to Liberals and the price charged to Conservatives, and so on.


John Dowsley Reid: If a man who lives half a mile from -the line, has -a phone, he is charged $4.50 per annum. If he lives a mile away, the charge is $9.
Air. * CARVELL: Suppose he is on the line?


John Dowsley Reid: If he uses the public telephone, be pays a certain fee.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Generally speaking, except in the case of a man who lives off the main line, there is no such thing -a.s a general rental system.


John Dowsley Reid: No, any one has a right to use the public telephone and to pay for any message -that he sends ovct -the lines. Returns -are regularly sent in -as (to the number of messages and the to-ll-s collected.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What are the rates
charged for a conversation over distances of 25, 50, 100 miles? There must he a certain schedule of tolls, according to the distance.


John Dowsley Reid: The rates are somewhat the same as .those charged by privately owned companies under -similar circumstances.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What is the rate per conversation, not per minute?


John Dowsley Reid: They charge so much per minute for the conversation, according to the distance. The method followed is the same as that adopted by, say, the Bell Tele-pohne Company-or, indeed, any other private company.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Does ith-e minister mean to tell the Committee that the Government puts up the poles and wines 'and establishes a telephone half a mile away from the main line for $4.50 a year? We bad better let the Government put in all the phones.


John Dowsley Reid: The people who use the public phones pay for their -messages; I have given the rates charged to persons who have their own phones,


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What is the yearly revenue obtained from these phones?


John Dowsley Reid: The revenue from all these systems is published in the annual report.


Alexander William Chisholm: If I make a recommendation to the minister to give telephones to, say two or three persons in my district, will he give me an assurance that he will do so. I will give the minister my word of honour that I will recommend only persons qualified to use those telephones.


John Dowsley Reid: I have stated the policy
adopted by the department. As I understand it, if a man applies for a telephone along the line, the department gives it to him, and it is practically made a public telephone. Whatever the policy is-and that is as I understand it-if the hon. member sends me the name of a party, I will see that he is put on that telephone line. There will be no discrimination. Every man will have the same right on that line, irrespective of politics or anything else. If a man, whether in my hon. friend's constituency or in any other portion of Canada, makes an application for a telephone on a government line, I will guarantee that the policy of giving the public the use of those telephones as freely as it can be given will be carried out,


Mr. COPP:: I notice in this report on telegraph statistics, which I have in my

hand, the gross revenue for 1916, on lines under the control of the Dominion Government, amounts to $181,227.04, while the expenses amount to $661,982.34. There is therefore, a very large deficit.


John Dowsley Reid: That is the expenditure for the whole of Canada, including extensions of lines.


Arthur Bliss Copp: There is a great difference between the revenue and the operating expenses.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I have listened for a long time to this discussion which seems to be more or less of a family quarrel amongst hon. members from Nova Scotia. I have never before seen the minister begged so hard to refrain from giving hon. gentlemen money as the minister has been begged today. I feel like voicing the opinions of my hon. friend (Sir Sam Hughes) and the hon. member for Renfrew (Mr. Graham) that this- is an opportune time to ask the minister to turn his eyes to Ontario, the people of which province want the service that the people of Nova Scotia apparently do not desire.
While I quite understand it is hard to strike out an item that has been inserted after mature deliberation on the part of tlie officials surely the 'minister can do so this afternoon after the heckling he has received from the hon. member for Guys-borough (Mr. Sinclair) who says:	I have
a number of friends who are going to get this extension, but, on their behalf, I do not want it and I ask you to strike out the item. The hon. member -for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) -wants to strike out everything. The hon. member for North Cape Breton*(Mr. McKenzie) would also become very economical and not let anything further get to his friends. The hon. -member for Inverness (Mr. Chisholm) is split in two; he is divided in the middle; he wants it and he do-es net want it; he says: If -a real Liberal can get on to the extension, so that he will not be overheard, I want it; if that cannot be done, I do not want it. It is all a question cf politics with hon. gentlemen opposite. I am sorry the hon. member for North Bruce (Mr. Hugh Clark) is not in the House. We have in old Ontario, to say nothing of the new, a large territory in which a system of this kind would be of great advantage. Take the Bruce peninsula, the land contiguous to Georgian bay and lake Huron, the territory running up to lake Nipissing and the north country; we can take thousands of miles of telegraph or telephone lines if the Government will only

give them to us. They would be of great benefit for life-saving purposes when storms occur on the lakes, and for warning against forest fires. These wants are apparently all- satisfied in Nova Scotia.


Mr. BRADBURY:: The people there do
not want them.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: They have them and
they are using them. It is time for the Government to strike out those extensions which they have been coaxed to strike out. Why should the Government leave them in the estimates? Hon. gentlemen opposite represent the people there; they know what their constituents want, and they say those extensions are of no use to the electors, ratepayers, and citizens of various constituencies in Nova Scotia. Under the circumstances, I would for once go over the heads of the department who have recommended those public benefits and say to the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair): All right, we will cut out your extension telegraph service; and I would say the same to the hon. member for Inverness (Mr. Chisholm).


Alexander William Chisholm: I am heartily in accord with the idea of continuing the ex-penditurey The hon. gentleman is wrong when he includes me with the other hon. members.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: I will leave my hon.
friend to fight it out w-ith his fellow members on the other side. I take from his statement the argument that the extension is of some service in at least one county


Alexander William Chisholm: Certainly it is.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: -and that the extensions are desired and required. I would out out all the extensions except that one in the county of Inverness, on the request of the hon. members who represent those counties. The money could be saved and sent up to the province of Ontario, as extensions are very badly needed in some of the northern sections in which the inhabitants are labouring under greater disadvanages than are the people of Nova Scotia. If there is any legal way of, accomplishing this, the minister should strike out all those other extensions now and give extensions' in the northern parts of Ontario where they are much more needed.


Alexander William Chisholm: Excepting Inverness.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The hon. member is
altogether wrong in saying that I oppose any accommodation to the people in my county of North Cape Breton and Victoria. The
wrong infcrmation was given to me by the minister. Inadvertently he told me he was going to put in three miles of telephone line at the end of about 100 miles of telegraph line. I could not understand the sense of putting in three miles of telephone line which would have no connection with any telephone system. After a little further inquiry, the minister and I discovered that this was merely a three-mile extension of the telegraph system in the county, and with that I am perfectly satisfied. I did however, combat the idea of building three miles of a telephone line all by itself with no earthly connection with any other telephone line and of no use to anybody. Those telegraph lines in the northern part of Victoria and throughout Cape Breton were put in by our own friends when we were in power, and we are not going to find fault with them to-day.
New Brunswick telegraph and telephone lines -Chatham-Escuminac and Point Sapin telephone line-extension to Kouchibouguac, $3,000.


John Dowsley Reid: The superintendent states that this extension is required in order to reach the fishery establishment at Kouehi-bouguac.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Who owns the fishery establishment?


John Dowsley Reid: The W. S. Loggie Company, Limited.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: As I am afraid there may be some connection between the W. S. Loggie Co. Limited and the hon. member for Northumberland, I want to put myself straight on the situation. I am just as strongly opposed to this vote as I was to the vote in regard to Nova Scotia, or as I will be in regard to the votes in regard to Quebec and British Columbia. I have never been on the ground actually myself, but, as I understand, perhaps 30 or 40 years ago the Federal Government built a telegraph line from Chatham, down the south bank of the Miramiohi river, running out to a point at the mouth of the Miramichi river called Point Escuminac. This line was extended to Point Sapin. It was for many years run as a telegraph line, and no doubt was of very great value, because it was used in connection with shipping; the arrival and departure of vessels being telegraphed to Chatham and in that way reached headquarters at Ottawa. I have never been at this place myself and, therefore, I cannot speak with the knowledge of the toon, gentleman from Northumberland, but I know that the New Brunswick Tele-

phone Company goes to Escun^jpac, and has a line to Kouchibouguac. It seems this is a proposal to extend the line beyond the point at which the Government line of telephone comes in contact *with the 'New Brunswick line.


John Dowsley Reid: Do I understand that when this is constructed it will join up (the present Government system?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, they are joined up now. Some years ago the telegraph line was converted into a telephone line, and an arrangement was made with the New Brunswick Telephone Company by which there was interchange of service. I do not remember the details, but I think it was satisfactory to both companies, as they come together at Kouchibouguac. This proposal is that the Government shall extend 10 or 12 miles further down the bay. I aim opposed to it.


John Dowsley Reid: Will there be opposition?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 
Mr. ROBIDOUX:: I trust the minister
will not treat too seriously the abuse which has been heaped on the Government telephone lines by hon. gentlemen opposite. I happen to know about that part of the line to which my hon. friend refers. It extends from Chatham to Point Sapin, part iu Northumberland county, and part in Kent county. It i's about 50 or GO miles in length, and the proposition is now t-*. extend it from Point Sapin to the Kouchibouguac river, following the shore, through districts spars-ley settled, and altogether out of communication with the rest of the world. The people who live along the shore are engaged in fishing and the telephone service is their only means of communication with the outside world. The hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) referred to the New Brunswick Telephone Company, and the readiness of that company to do anything they could to give telephone facilities to the people of New Brunswick. I do not know how telephone companies act in other parts of the Dominion. But I want to say that in New Brunswick, so far as telephones are concerned, we have one of the worst monopolies in the Dominion of Canada. We formerly had two companies in New Brunswick, the Central 'Telephone Company and the New Brunswick Telephone Company. I do not know to which company the hon, gentleman belongs, but today competition has been absolutely abolished by the absorption of the Central Telephone Company by the New Brunswick Telephone Company. The hon. gentleman has stated that the New Brunswick Telephone Company was always ready to come to the rescue of people who desired telephone communication and I desire to say that that is not so. I know a number of irstances where applications were made to the New Brunswick Telephone Company to extend their lines to different localities

and They would n-ot give the people these facilities. The New Brunswick Telephone Company was generous enough to say to the people: You put up the poles, we will put up the wire, and the line will belong to us. That was the basis upon which they were prepared to give telephone communication to these people. The proposed line will end at Kouchibouguac beach. It does not connect in any way with the New Brunswick Telephone line at Kouchibouguac; it connects with the main line at Chatham, and gives very valuable service to the people of that section of the country; the government will be well advised, if they extend the system further whenever needed. Reference has been made to the amount paid for rental om these lines, and the $4.50 rate has been considered ridiculous by gentlemen opposite. Well, $4.50 at first sight is ridiculous, but it is not quite so ridiculous when you take into consideration the fact that by paying $4.50 you merely get communication with Chatham, and the localities along that line, which I say are sparsely settled.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 60 miles of communication.


Ferdinand Joseph Robidoux: 60 miles of communication through wilderness, and the New Brunswick Company would not, under any consideration, undertake to build the line there, and the moment you reach Chatham if you want to communicate with any other portion of the province you must pay 25 cents to the New Brunswick Telephone Company. If you were to telephone into Chatham, in order- to get your connection with the town of Chatham you must pay a pretty heavy toll. The Department of Public Works would be well advised not to pay too much consideration to all this howl which is raised against their telephone lines, which are giving good service to a portion of the population, which would not get any service at all were it not for those lines.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not want to go into a dissertation about the vices or virtues of this telephone company, because I would be very much out of order. I want to say to the hon. gentleman, however, and I am very glad to have an opportunity of making this statement to-day, that the New Brunswick Telephone Company has no monopoly in any portion of the province pf New Brunswick, Any person or any company who can get the rights from the municipal authorities is absolutely free to parallel the lines of the New Brunswick Telephone Company at any place. We have competition in many parts of the province, and we encourage the construction of local companies wherever we can. In many cases we hand over certain territory to those people and say:	Now, develop it.
When I hear of the trouble they are having in Ontario in regard to telephone companies, I think there must be something wrong, either with the Bell Telephone Company or with the local companies, because we have no friction whatever in the province of New Brunswick. My hon. friend speaks about the charges made. It may surprise him to learn that in the province of New Brunswick we have the cheapest telephone service in the Dominion, and we have the finest example in Canada of what can be done by a properly organized and properly conducted public utility corporation. We have no mortgages and no bonds, and a very small capitalization.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: What does the farmer pay per year?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Fifteen dollars, for unlimited service.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: A party line?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Unlimited party line
.service. In some of the towns we get the service down as low as $15. To show you the difference between a properly operated company-owned line and a government-owned line, I will give you an illustration. There are about 1,000 telephones in the town in which I live, about one-half in the town and one-half in the country-the country subscribers get the service for $15 a year, and I thin^ the lowest rate in the town is $15 or $18.


Mr. IIANNA:: That is for house telephones?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, $18 for a business telephone. I simply mention this to show what can be done when a company operates a public utility under proper conditions.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Why is it lower in some
towns than in others?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Because of the service given. The larger the exchange the higher the price, on the theory that they are getting more service from the telephones. So far as I know, the New Brunswick Telephone Company has never refused to grant a service, even though it be not upon a paying basis. No doubt there have been

many applications for service which have not been granted, and you will find that everywhere. My hon. friend says that if the people will erect the poles the company will agree to string the wires. That is- true in many cases, and it has frequently been taken advantage of. I presume the same thing applies all over Canada. I would like to ask my hon. friend from Kent (Mr. Robidoux) whether the New Brunswick Telephone Company was ever asked to construct the line in question under this vote.


Ferdinand Joseph Robidoux: I cannot give my hon. friend the information, but I believe the matter was broached when Mr. Richard O'Leary was a member of the board of directors of the New Brunswick Telephone Company, and my information is that the company could not consider the question of establishing a telephone line in that district, 'because the line would have to be built through about ten miles of uninhabited country, from which no revenue would 'be derived. From a business standpoint the proposition could not be considered at all, and the New Brunswick Telephone Company would not consider it. The company is not in business for the good of the health of its members; it is in business for dollars and cents, and that is the policy it followed ever since it has had the monopoly. Before the New Brunswick Telephone Company had obtained a practical monopoly in the province we could get certain privileges and certain advantages from the rival companies, but evidently the competition was not satisfactory to the shareholders of the New Brunswick Telephone Company, so they absorbed these other companies. This was good business. Although it is permissible for any man or any body of men to start a telephone company in the province of New Brunswick, it is a difficult matter to carry on a business of that kind with competition as strong as the competition of the New Brunswick Telephone Company. For that reason there are no rival companies. In many instances the rates of the New Brunswick Telephone Company are fair, but in many others which I could enumerate if this were the time and place, they are unfair.


George Perry Graham: If the Government persists in spending $272,000 to instal new lines, when $50,000 or $60,000 would 'be sufficient to repair the old lines, when they go to the people and ask them to economize, they need not be surprised if the people laugh at them and have no confidence in their sincerity. If they propose to build

new lines to the extent of at least $200,000 which could be done without until the war is over, and then ask the people to contribute for war purposes, they need not be surprised if the people ask them why they did not save $200,000 when they had an opportunity. I protest strongly against a dollar being expended for new lines at the present time. Old lines should be repaired and kept in as good conditions as possible, but the people of Canada can until after the war join in the sacrifice which is being made, by doing without telephone lines which they never before had. If the Government persists in spending this money at the present time, they are not keeping faith with the people, and they are not using their best endeavours to conserve the finances of the country in order that the war may be prosecuted.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I do not rise for the purpose of objecting to or criticising the particular item under discussion. I would like to ask the acting Minister of Public Works upon what basis he makes the estimate to give aid to certain sections of the province and not to the others? I quite understand the argument made by my hon. friend from Kent (Mr. Robidoux) that it would be a very great advantage if the Government owned the telephone service in that section of the province of New Brunswick which is sparsely populated. But there are other portions of New Brunswick to which the like argument would apply. Will the same consideration be granted to other portions of New Brunswick as is being granted to this section?


John Dowsley Reid: This is merely an extension of the present line. We are not adopting the policy of starting out in some other place to build an entirely new line. My hon. friend from South Renfrew is protesting against expenditures on account of war conditions. He is absolutely right and we all agree to that and we have curtailed expenditures. But, there are urgent cases like the present where the extension is to give communication to a large fishing industry. We are urging people to catch more fish and that large industry has increased its output for the benefit of the people during the war. No Government can sit still and not do what is necessary in connection with the works that are already established. Some hon. gentleman states that the Government system does not amount to much. We have some 10,000 miles of telegraph service throughout Canada while the Great Northwestern Telegraph Company has 10,000; the Canadian Pacific Railway Telegraph Com-

pany, 14,000 and the Grand Trunk Pacific
5,000.	We are in the business in about as large a way as any of them. The only difference is that the Government have to build these lines in sparsely settled districts where a private corporation would not extend their system. Would* the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) who is interested in a telephone company say that the Bell Telephone Company are not extending their line one mile during this war; hut that they are taking the money that they might use for extensions and putting it into war bonds?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Our company are certainly extending their lines the least possible distance and we are putting every dollar we can get our hands on into war bonds or into contributions to the Patriotic Fund.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman has answered my question as I expected he would. He admits that they are extending their lines to the least possible extent and I tell him that the Government are doing the same, as was proved when the hon. member for Inverness complained that he had asked for 7j miles of telegraphic line and that the minister had cut it in two.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The minister talks about his great system of 10,000 miles of telegraph and telephone lines. This is a system that was started to reach parts of the country that could not possibly be reached by any ordinary business organization. They had to go to 'the Yukon, twelve or fourteen years ago and that takes in 1,000 miles. They had to go to Labrador to facilitate the navigation of the river St. Lawrence, and that takes in 2,000 or 3,000 miles, and they had to go down the north shore of the St. Lawrence for the same reason. Years ago they constructed a line from Chatham to Point Escuminac, which also was necessitated by the requirements of navigation. But that is a different principle altogether. That does not get you away from the fact that the hon. gentleman, on the eve of an election, is expending over a quarter of a million dollars for telephone lines that are not needed. Do you tell me that it is necessary for the industries of this country, for the carrying on of the war, or for the carrying on of the affairs of the country, that this Government should expend $3,000 to extend a little telephone line in the constituency of my hon. friend from Kent? It is a most wonderful thing how they have got along there for fifty or seventy-five years without a telephone line. It is a
most wonderful thing that any of the telephone companies in New Brunswick have not heard about this. It is a remarkable thing that they have carried on their business down there without a telephone line, and that just on the eve of an election my hon. friend wants to spend $3,000 in order that the hon. member for Kent may obtain a few votes. That is what we object to. Ii the Government telephone system were a real business proposition from which they were expected to pay interest on the investment it would be a different thing. But we know that these are not business propositions. We know that they never expect to get a cent of revenue from the investment. We have the admission that they spend $600,000 or $700,000 a year in getting a revenue amounting to about one-third of that. But what I am saying now is only a bagatelle as compared with what ought to be said with reference to some other items in the estimates. A man would not know very much about what was real loyalty to his country who would stand up without protesting against the proposal of the Government to launch out into the expenditure of this enormous amount of money simply that there might be easy sledding for certain of his friends when the election comes on.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The acting Minister of Public Works did not answer my question in regard to the policy of the Government. He made the statement that this amount was being expended in that section of the country for the purpose of reaching the fishing establishments and giving the people tele phonic communication with Chatham and elsewhere in Kent and Northumberland. Is it proposed to extend that system to any other localities in New Brunswick?
I know of farmers who have left their places because they could not get telephone connection. It is as important to farmers to have telephone communication as it is to fishermen, and if the policy laid down with regard to this line is right, it would be equally correct to give assistance to agricultural communities in the outlying settlements of the different provinces. If I can say to my constituents that the Government will assist them in establishing telephonic lines of communication with the more populous centres, they will consider it a great advantage. Leaving aside the general question of public ownership, I can see no reason why one section should get this advantage and assistance and other sections be denied it.


John Dowsley Reid: The policy of the Government is only to extend certain lines that are in existence, not to build new lines in new localities.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What is the difference between extending an old line ten miles into a new district and building ten miles of line in a new district?


John Dowsley Reid: The difference is that to adopt such a policy would involve a very large expenditure. These are small amounts to extend some of the present lines a few miles.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: How many phones does the minister anticipate placing on this ten or twelve miles of line, and what will be the estimated cost and the revenue?


John Dowsley Reid: I shall have to get that information between now and eight o'clock.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Is this line to be operated on the same principle and under the same conditions as the line in Nova Scotia, which is that there will be no such thing as a man renting a phone, but that a phone will be placed in somebody's place of business or residence, and people will go in and pay a certain toll? I understand that this line will extend about 70 miles to Chatham. If this system is to be adopted, does it mean that the same charge will be made for all points on that 70 miles, and, if so, what will that rate be?


John Dowsley Reid: That is a very reasonable question and I shall procure the information before eight o'clock.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I may say that I am absolutely opposed to the whole system and feel like criticising each item and getting all possible information. I think it necessary that the people should have some of this information in order that they may realize what an awful system is being imposed on them for what, in my judgment, is purely a political reason. I shall continue to ask questions and I hope the minister will realize that I am doing it only from a sense of duty.


John Dowsley Reid: The information I have before me is what it is usual for the minister to have in passing these estimates, but of course there may be questions that call for fuller information and I shall have the proper official here at eight o'clock. It is better to have the items criticised because in that way information may be forthcoming which will be valuable to the minister in respect to either expenditure or opera-

tion. I want the hon. -member to feel that I am not withholding any information.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: As the minister is in the happy position of not having any information, of course he cannot withhold it. If this discussion has done nothing but reveal the condition of affairs existing in the county of Inverness, and if it produces a remedy for that condition of affairs and places this system in such a position that it will not be an absolute political machine but will be of some benefit to the public, the afternoon will not have been spent in vain.
At six o'clock the Committee took recess.
After Recess.
The Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Telegraph and telephone lines-New Bruns- [DOT] wick-Chatham-Escuminac and Point Sapin telephone line-extension to Kouchibouguac, $3,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What rates are to be charged on this line, and w-hat is the expected revenue?


John Dowsley Reid: I will hand my hon. friend an extract from the report of the Department of Public Works; it will give him some information on that.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: On the Escuminac line
the expenditure last year was $1,692.83 and the revenue $968.20. What is the anticipated revenue from the proposed extension to "Kouchibouguac?


John Dowsley Reid: Two hundred dollars a year over cost of operation is expected.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Does that mean $200 over the annual expenditure for keeping the line in repair-replacements, betterments and , maintenance?


John Dowsley Reid: Two hundred dollars a year over the cost of maintenance. The man who is looking after the other line will keep this one in repair.
Quebec-Quebec county telephone lines, $2,400; Dorchester county telephone lines, $3,500.
Mr. BOULAY- In making appropriations for telephone lines the Government has evidently forgotten a part of the country which is in great need of that service. I refer to that part of Quebec extending fro- Matane to Gaspe, along the south shore of the St. Lawrence. This part of the province is settled chiefly by fishermen, whose only communication during the winter is by telegraph.. In this district, which covers an area

of about 200 miles, lumber mills are being established and business is going to improve, but very likely the people there will never have the benefit of a railroad. Part of this district is in the county of Rimouski and part in the county of Gaspe. I hope the Government will bear my remarks in mind and make an appropriation next year with a view to improving the means of communication afforded to these people, who, as it were, are buried under the snow nearly seven months in the year. I wish to call the attention of the minister also to the condition of the Matapedia road. Some improvements have been effected, but this year the item for the necessary work has been entirely forgotten. The Matapedia road is a very important one; it is much used by travellers; automobiles and teams pass over it when going from Quebec to New Brunswick. It is the only road in the Matapedia valley leading into Campbellton. It is in a very dangerous condition.


George Henry Bradbury: Does the Dominion
Government keep up that road?


Mr. BOULAY:: Yes, it was built by the Federal Government. There should be an appropriation this year to put that road in a safe condition.


George Henry Bradbury: When was the road
built by the Federal Government?


Herménégilde Boulay: I think it was before
Confederation. If no appropriation is made this year for making repairs to that road, I hope the minister will see that the matter is attended to next year.
This road should not be neglected. It is the only road we have. It should be widened. In some places it is only from twelve to fifteen feet wide, and travellers complain that in some parts the telegraph poles are right in the middle of the road. Steps should have been taken long ago to compel the Great Northwestern Telegraph Company to move those poles to one side of the road. This should be done as soon as is convenient.


John Dowsley Reid: I will make a note of the hon. member's remarks and will take the matter up with the department.


Mr. PROULX:: Are these telephone lines in Quebec and Dorchester counties to be used in connection with the operation of the Transcontinental railway?


John Dowsley Reid: No, they are just for the use of the people living in the locality.
341*


Edmond Proulx: Why this discrimination? Why is the Government building telephone lines in only two counties of Quebec?


John Dowsley Reid: If the hon. member will look over a list of the lines in Quebec he will see that there are telephone or telegraph lines in many constituencies of the province along both shores. Away down along the north shore, where neither railway companies nor private companies have lines, the Government have had to build lines.
I speak of the north shore at points such as Tadoussac and Chicoutimi, where telephonic communication is required for the protection of shipping and to enable the fishermen to do business. That is the only communication the people have with the city of Quebec.


Edmond Proulx: The Charlevoix, Chicoutimi and Saguenay districts are very sparsely populated, hut Quebec and Dor-# Chester'*are old counties with dense population, and in many counties in Quebec there are private lines with connection with the Bell Telephone Company. In my county there is the Bell Telephone Company and two private telephone lines which have connections with the Bell.


John Dowsley Reid: The district in which the hon. member lives is well settled, and the Bell Telephone Company has lines all over that locality. But in the district we have spoken of there is no telephone system and we are merely extending the Government line.


Mr. TOBIN:: Do I understand the minister to say there are no telephone companies in the county of Dorchester?


John Dowsley Reid: Not in the locality referred to.


Edmund William Tobin: If this is going to be the
policy of the Government as regards the south shore of the river, I may say that Dorchester county has a telephone line that runs through all the parishes.


Mr. SEVIGNY:: I know that this item for telephone lines for Quebec county is required for the parishes of Tewkesbury, Notre-Dame des Laurentides, Lac Beauport, Lac St. Charles and another parish the name of which 1 do not remember. I know personally that in that part of Quebec county there is no telephone at all and no telegraph, and it is distant from any railway. It is only fair to the people of those parishes that they should be afforded some means of . communication with the rest of civilization. It is true, as has just been mentioned by my hon. friend from

Richmond and Wolfe (Mr. Tobin) that many parishes in my county have telephone lines which are giving a very good service, but it is also true that in four new parishes in the upper part of the county, St. Cyprien, St. Louis, St. Abdon and St. Luc, tliere is neither telephonic nor telegraphic communication, and they are about fifteen miles from a railway. Those parishes were visited by officers of the Department of of Public Works who made a very favourable report on the proposed work.


Edmund William Tobin: When did the minister receive the report referred to?


John Dowsley Reid: March 10, 1917.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Are those parishes in Dorchester county well settled agricultural communities?


Albert Sévigny: No, they are new parishes.
* Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:	The mere fact
that a district has no telegraph , system, no telephone system and is fifteen miles from a railway, is not good enough ground to warrant the Government incurring an expenditure in order to instal a telephone system. There are scores of places in Canada much less favourably situated than are these parishes in Dorchester county. These votes for telephone lines, with which we have been dealing this afternoon and with which we shall probably be dealing with all evening, are a serious matter. This is a departure from what has been the settled policy of this country for many years, and it looks as if we were about to embark upon the general construction, in several provinces of Canada, of telephone systems. It is quite true that, at one stage of our history and at certain places in Canada, there was justification for the expenditure of money to give telephonic and telegraphic communication to certain isolated parts of a community or of a province. That day has passed. There is not a place, in Nova Scotia at least, in which the Government should be operators of a telephone system. We have several private companies operating there which are controlled, as to rates, by public utility boards. Every year many farmers' telephone lines are being installed, and it seems to me it is time for the Government to go out of the business. Instead of constructing new lines, they should dispose of those they now have.
We should know whether or not this is the settled policy of the Government. If it were merely the construction of a few

miles of telephone lines, I could understand it, and it might not be objectionable, but starting, as the Government is this year, with all this proposed construction, is it not likely to grow? If there is one enter-prize in the world in which a government-the Dominion Government, at least -should not, enter, it is the telephone system. It would be far better to give small bonuses to local companies to assist them in the construction of telephone lines in certain communities, and then we are done with it.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not think the hon.
gentleman is quite fair in this matter. He is trying to lead the committee to believe we are adopting a new policy in building telephone or telegraph lines in Canada.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It looks that way.


Mr REID:: And he suggested that, instead of operating the line, it would be much better to give a subsidy to some other company.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I did not urge
the giving of a subsidy, but I said that wmuld be a better policy.


John Dowsley Reid: I believe the Government
would be glad to hand over the lines to any company that would agree to operate them. These lines are not built by the Government for the purpose of making money, but to accommodate the people in these outlying districts where they have no communication with the outside world, except by wire. I suppose it is 30 or 40 years since the Government started building telephone lines in these outlying places. There is no doubt that these lines had to be built, and from 1896 until 1911, when the hon. gentleman was on this side of the House, that was exactly the policy carried out. In these districts where they have no telegraph communication new telegraph lines were constructed. We have 11,000 or
19.000	miles of lines throughout the Dominion, and I venture to say, that 5,000 or
6.000	miles were built when the hon. gentleman occupied a seat on this side, and he voted for every item and never raised an objection to the policy. We are simply carrying on the extension which is necessary this year, at the least possible expenditure. We have in Canada many telegraph and telephone companies, some large corporations like the Bell Telephone Company and the New Brunswick Telephone Company, and some rural telephone lines;

and I venture to say that there is not one systeifi, either telegraph or telephone, which has not extended its lines many miles during the last year, and will continue to do so every year. The government system was inaugurated perhaps thirty or forty years ago and since then every government has simply been extending those lines, or building lines in newly-developed localities where you could not possibly get a private corporation to venture. During this session we are only adding a few miles to some of these lines, where the former Minister of Public Works, when preparing his estimates, felt it absolutely necessary to take some action at the present time.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Will the minister tell me what lines he is extending in Dorchester county, and what lines the Government now own, which they think it their imperative duty to extend, especially since the Dorchester election?


John Dowsley Reid: I stated that the Government were simply following out the policy of extending some of the present lines, and building in a new country, where there was a population with no telephone system. These few miles of lines which are being constructed in Dorchester county are ir a part of the country only partly opened up, where there is now no telephone communication.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: This apparently
means the adoption of a new Government policy in respect of telephones. I am quite aware that in the past the Government constructed many miles of telegraph system, and have 'been operating the same for many years. In many instances I have no doubt it is very desirable indeed that the Government should do this. I think X may also safely say that, in past years, when construction and extensions were made they were quite necessary. Extensions were made in districts which were very thinly populated and where it was not possible to	get private
companies to go. But there never was a time when the estimates, disclosed expenditures for the construction of 50 or more extensions of telephone lines. The most that Parliament ever voted in any one year would be very few in number. The minister goes into Dorchester county, where there was not a telephone line owned by the Government. I should think that that is one of the oldest-settled counties in Canada. Surely there would be private companies quite willing to go and serve the parishes to which the hon. Minister of Inland Revenue refers. If the Government once starts putting in a few miles in Dorchester county in one year, similar demands will come from every county in Canada. This is a new policy.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not agree with the hon. gentleman. It may be that the construction of a telephone system is a new policy adopted by this Government. It may be the previous government did not adopt the telephone system when they were building lines. The cost of a new line would be the same, whether it was a telegraph line or a telephone line. There is no doubt in my mind which of the two I would instal. Any person can operate the telephone system, you can have a great many people using it, and they can talk from their own houses; but if you build a telegraph line, parties must go to the office, even though it be miles away, to have their messages sent by the operator, and they do not know whether they are sent in the right way or not.


Arthur Bliss Copp: How many inhabitants are there in those parishes in Dorchester county?


John Dowsley Reid: Probably the Minister of Inland Revenue could answer that better than I can. My hon. friend (Mr. A. K. Maclean) has also laid stress on the fact, that this is an old-settled county. The hon. member for Victoria (Sir Sam Hughes) made the statement to-day that there are parts of the province of Ontario which are very sparsely settled, and there is not a private corporation which would think for a minute of building a telephone line in them. In the county of Hastings, 100 miles from Belleville, there are very few people. If you asked the Bell Telephone Company to put a line there, they would laugh at you. You could not even get a rural line started, because there are so few people. Many years ago the Government adopted the policy of building these telegraph and telephone lines, and what we are doing now is simply carrying out that policy. The hon. member for Inverness (Mr. Chisholm) told us here today that his application for extensions had been cut in two. My hon. friend from Northumberland (Mr. Loggie) has been pressing for the line from Chatham. All the items before us have been urged by members on both sides of the House and are in the estimates after thorough investigation.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: And you will have more next year.


John Dowsley Reid: If my hon. friend can get the members for Cape Breton, where these Government lines are, to say they will take them over and operate them to the satisfaction of the public, so far as I am concerned I would be prepared to recommend to the Government to hand them over.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Would the minister be prepared to do that in New Brunswick?


John Dowsley Reid: Will my hon. friend take this line?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Will you make the offer?


John Dowsley Reid: Now that the line is built-


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: If the minister will make the offer I will be only too happy to submit it to the company.


John Dowsley Reid: The Government is building this line from Chatham down to Mr. Log-gie's fishery industry. If the hon. member will take his line and pay five per cent on the investment, and operate the line to the satisfaction of the public-


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is another thing.


John Dowsley Reid: The line will cost about $3,000. We expect a revenue of $200 over and above operating expenses. This is more than five per cent on the investment. I am willing to recommend that the Government accept less than that, but my hon. friend will not take it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The minister is getting away from the question now. He is talking about giving over those Nova Scotia lines to somebody. Will he hand over the New Brunswick lines to the New Brunswick Telephone Company, if the company undertakes to operate them?


John Dowsley Reid: I have given my answer.


Edmund William Tobin: Has the work of building these lines been started?


John Dowsley Reid: Not yet.


Edmund William Tobin: The county of Dorchester is one of the oldest counties in the province of Quebec. There are about eighteen or twenty municipalities, or parishes, in the county, and the Minister of Inland Revenue says there are only four parishes which have no telephone system. He knows very well that if it were not for the promises he made to his friends in the election of February last the Government would not be installing telephone systems there today.


Albert Sévigny: I made only one promise in my election.
[Mr A. K. Maclean.]


Edmund William Tobin: You made a great many promises, and you cannot carry them out.


John Dowsley Reid: Did my hon. friend ever make any promises when he was running an election?


Edmund William Tobin: None that I could not carry out. In the carrying out of these promises, an engineer was sent down there, and he made a report on 10th March, just a few weeks after the election. Now they are coming forward with an estimate for $3,500. If it is going to be the policy of the Government to build telephone lines in all the rural municipalities in the province of Quebec I have nothing to say; but, if these lines are only being built to fulfil election promises, I think this item should be struck out.


John Dowsley Reid: It is not being done to redeem an election promise.


Edmund William Tobin: The election was held on 4th February last, and the engineer's report is dated 10th March. The Government is asking everybody to save, to cut down expenses, to tighten up their belts, to eat less, to give money to patriotic funds, and so on, yet they carry out' an election promise to the extent cf $3,500 on one item in one county. The hon. gentleman who represents t'hat county knows very well that they have local telephone companies, and that the farmers could organize under the laws of the province of Quebec and get their charter at a cost of about $10, and could operate their own local companies. The minister knows perfectly well that if it were not for the election we would not have this item in the Estimates to-day.


Edmond Proulx: What Is the estimated revenue of those lines in Dorchester?


John Dowsley Reid: It is estimated that the revenue will be about equal to the operating expenses..


Edmond Proulx: Are they to be operated by Government employees, or on a commission basis?


John Dowsley Reid: By Government employees.


Edmund William Tobin: What is the population of those parishes?


Albert Sévigny: There are about 75
families in the parish of St. Louis, and, as my hon. friend knows, the families in the province of Quebec are large.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Are they so large that each family would require more than one telephone?


Albert Sévigny: I don't know. There are about 50 families in the parish of St. Cyprien. The only way they can have communication with the rest of the world is by means of this telephone system. They have no telegraph lines. They are really pioneers. This is a new part of the county, about five or six miles from the boundary line.


Mr. BO IVIN:: How long have those new parishes been established in your county?


Albert Sévigny: Four parishes were
established about five or six years ago. They are new settlements.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We have new parishes in the province of New Brunswick along the line of the Transcontinental. If my hon. friend from Rimouski (Mr. Boulay) were here he could tell you all about them, because two or three days after the election he went down and ordered them to change the names of some of the stations along the line. He knows we have parishes there with hundreds of families, instead of 75 families.


Albert Sévigny: On- the Transcontinental line?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, away in the wilderness. Those men get telephonic communication through their own energy. The idea of asking the Government to come in and build a few miles of telephone line, in order to implement an election pledge, is something very small indeed, so small that the Lord knows what this country is coming to. There is nothing to it except to carry out pledges made in the past and try to get votes in the future.
I felt that my hon. friend the Acting Minister of Publio Works (Mr. Reid) would be up against a stone wall this afternoon. I have a good deal of sympathy with him. He is carrying this thing along and he is exercising a great deal of ingenuity-and no man possesses more ingenuity than he. But when he tried to get down to principles, I knew he was. going to get into trouble. All of yesterday and this afternoon he was talking about an extension of existing lines. Because I happen to have some little connection with a telephone company in New Brunswick he put a staggerer to me. He grinned clear to the back of his neck when he asked me if we would extend our lines, and I said: "To the least possible extent." He said: "That is exactly what we are doing; all we are doing is extending existing lines." But now we find that he is
starting out after new business entirely. There never was a government line there. But the trouble is that the Minister of Inland Revenue wanted to get elected last year and he promised everything-telephones, telegraphs, bulls, rams, and everything else imaginable, and he got them. The bulls and rams are not there now, or they are not in the condition they were in when they went there. It is anything in the world to get votes. If the minister will own up-admit the whole story-I think we will let this item go through.


John Dowsley Reid: Carried.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: If the minister will own i;p like a man, if he will simply say that he is carrying out the pledges made by the Minister of Inland Revenue to get some votes and that he is ashamed of the whole thing -as the whole party is ashamed of it-we might make an exception in this case and let the item go through. Personally, 1 felt that he was up against a wall, that he would not be able to carry this out in principle. And he is not through yet; this is only the beginning.


Frank Oliver: The minister hardly states the case correctly when he says that these votes are merely a continuation of the long-established policy of the Government. It has been a long-established policy of the Government to give telegraphic communication to outlying points strategically situated for the transaction of business or the promotion of settlement, or for other reasons of public policy, but it never was any part of the policy of the Government to provide purely local telephonic communication. That is a new development, the policy of this present Government, and, I judge, of this session of Parliament. There is no part of the country where the policy of the extension of telegraph lines has been pushed more than in the part of the country I represent. Telegraph lines were extended to the Peace river country many years ago with a view to assist in carrying on the trade then existing and for the development of settlement which was then coming in. There is no doubt that the building of that particular telegraph line, as well as most of those telegraph lines which have been built out into that new country, has very well justified the enterprise that placed it there. 'But in the Peace River country the settlers are providing their own local telephonic communication. A group of farmers organize and provide poles and wires linked up with points where there is telegraphic communi-

cation. This they do at their own expense. 1 do not see any particular reason why, if the pioneer settlers of the Peace river are able to protect their own interests to that degree, the pioneer settlers in Dorchester should not do exactly the same thing. I do not wish to raise any complaint against the giving of advantage to these settlers simply because they are new settlers. That is a reason why they should get advantages if they are not so situated that they can lbe relieved by the establishment of local lines which are well within their own resources. That is the difference between the policy that has been pursued and the policy that is now being instituted. If the Government proposes to take upon its shoulders the burden of supplying local telephonic communication to every section of the country throughout the Dominion or to every locality in which the peop'e have sufficient pull with the Government to secure its attention, it is a most objectionable policy, and I protest that it is not in accordance with the policy of telegraph line construction that has prevailed in the past.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would the Minister of Inland Revenue inform the committee of the size of the parishes in Dorchester county and state the distance between the present established telephone lines and the most remote parish which is to be served by the new lines?


Albert Sévigny: The parish of St. Louis is about ten miles from the parish of Ste. Rose where they have a telephone line.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How many people are in that parish?


Albert Sévigny: Seventy-five families.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: In one settled community?


Albert Sévigny: Spread over. It is a newly colonized district situated about five miles from the Maine border. The parish of St. Cyprien is about six miles from the parish of St. Louis. I think there are about 50 families of pioneers there. The parish of St. Luc has just been opened up; they have had a priest for a month only. There are about 25 or 30 families there.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: How far are they from the Transcontinental railway?


Albert Sévigny: These people are forty rniles from the Transcontinental railway.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What railway is nearest to them?


Albert Sévigny: The Quebec Central.
They are about 15 or 20 miles from it.


John Howard Sinclair: The system of telephones grew up in the province of Nova Scotia in this way: Many years ago the fishermen wanted communication along the coast in order to get ship news, news of wrecks and of the location of bait, and the Government built these telephone lines in Cape Breton for the accommodation of fishermen in outlying places. But the present Government has embarked in the telephone business and has connected the telegraph lines with districts by telephones.
Is the minister going to extend that to other places? I have in my constituency a number of places of that kind which have no telephone lines and where the people would find it difficult to build lines because of the expense. One or two of these places correspond closely with the description given by the hon. Minister of Inland Revenue (Mr. Sevigny). Will the minister do the same thing for the outlying districts of Guysborough?


John Dowsley Reid: If the hon. member will send in an application, I will promise to give it my serious consideration if he will promise not to accuse me of doing it for political purposes.
Air. A1ICHAUD: I wish to direct attention to the conditions in connection with the telephone line along the International railway which was purchased by the Government. It is about 115 miles in length and about 900 families live along it. It is almost impossible to obtain the use of the line, as we are informed by the operators that it belongs to the Government -and not ' to the settlers. I have tried to use it myself without success. If the minister will telegraph to-morrow morning to the agents along that railway that they are to permit the settlers to use the telephone line, he will greatly please and benefit them.


John Dowsley Reid: That line would come under the Railway Department, not under the Public Works Department. I will mention it to the Alinister of Railways, but I should suggest that the hon. member should write to the minister. Of course it is quite essential that the line should be under the control of the train dispatcher if it is used for the operation of the trains.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is only one accommodation train a day each way, and the line could not be used for more than half an hour by the railway.


Mr. MICHAUD:: As to the operators being busy, very often they are not. The line is not properly operated, and the trains are delayed for hours every day, and never reach their destinations on time. The operators as a rule would have ample time to help the public in this matter.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That	is	Government
operation of railways.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Upon what principle is
the minister acting in establishing telephone lines in a community such as that described by the hon. Minister of Inland Revenue (Mr. Sevigny) in Dorchester, where there are 75 families within ten miles of another line, 50 families within six miles of another line, and 25 families within a distance which was not stated? There is not another place in Canada that would ask to have a telephone line built under such circumstances. In every part of Ontario that I know of the people 9 p.m. themselves establish these lines, paying the entire cost of construction and operation. As a Parliament, we are supposed to use every section of the country alike, and I should like to know the principle acted on in this case. It looks absurd on the face of it.


John Dowsley Reid: I explained that it is a new
colony that has gone into this territory, and this is to give the .people communication with the outside world.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why do they not build it themselves?


John Dowsley Reid: These people are starting
a new colony and they have not the means.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: How do you know?


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. 'member has heard
the Minister of Inland Revenue.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: He did not say
they were without means.


John Dowsley Reid: IlP said they were settlers
just going in to open up this new territory, and as a rule they are not very flush.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I understood that Dorchester was an old settled county.


John Dowsley Reid: Part of it.


Albert Sévigny: The lower .part; this is a new part.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Every county may have
some part that is not settled, but that is no reason why we should establish telephone lines in it.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Then the pioneer of Dorchester referred to by the minister is not the pioneer of fifty or a hundred years ago. These settlers are probably the children of well-to-do people in the county of Dorchester who are going on new land.


Albert Sévigny: Oh, no.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The Minister of Inland Revenue ought to be ashamed to go to the Government and ask them to spend $3,500 on this telephone line. He should show a better example to his colleagues, to the country -and to Parliament, and should ask to have the amount ,withdrawn now. It is nothing but looting the treasury by means of an Act of Parliament.


Albert Sévigny: The Minister of Inland
Revenue is not ashamed at all to ask for that amount in the estimates. If the junior member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) will look at the estimates presented to this House for the last six years, he will notice that there never was $50 in the estimates to be spent in the county of Dorchester.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That has nothing to'do with the question.


Albert Sévigny: It has something to do with the question. I am asking that this amount be voted for my county, because it is necessary to give accommodation to the people-unfortunately, poor people, in four new parishes that have no telephones or telegraphs-who are fifteen miles from a railway line and who are making every possible sacrifice in an effort to develop this new district. They are certainly entitled to some encouragement. I am sure that many people who voted against me in January last will be surprised that there is such strong opposition on the part of Liberal members to the making of this appropriation for my county. This Government is asked for this appropriation, not only by my friends, but by the priests, by the Liberal leaders, by everybody. It is only 'fair that the people should he given this accommodation.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It does not matter .if everybody in Dorchester county asked for these telephones. The minister would display more commendable qualities as a representative of the people if he had strength enough to say no to the people in his county who ask for this expenditure. A public representative should learn to say no; it is easy enough to say yes. Does the

Minister of Inland Revenue attempt to justify this vote on the ground that during the last six years no public expenditures have been made in Dorchester county?


Albert Sévigny: No, not at all.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The hon. gentleman said a moment ago that no public money had been expended in his county during the last six years. I understand that a great number of cattle for breeding purposes were sent to Dorchester county, and that somebody ran away with them. That must have involved an expenditure of public money; therefore, there was some expenditure in Dorchester county within the last few years. I am afraid the real reason of it all is, as the minister inadvertently stated a few moments ago, that he wants some money spent in Dorchester county, and it might as well be for telephones as for anything else.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Two very vicious principles have been enunciated by the Minister of Inland Revenue in his brief remarks. First, he says that he is not ashamed to ask for this vote because during the last six years not $50 has been expended in his county. Second, he says that the people want this appropriation. Of course they want it. That is what I have been trying to fight against for some years. The people " want '-and as long as they have a paternal government that will give them what they want, they will continue to make demands. No man knows that better than the Minister of Inland Revenue. He stated that no public money has been expended in his constituency. Well, no public money has been expended in my constituency during the last six years, unless for necessary repairs to the three public buildings that we have in that county. There has been no new work. I have not asked for any;
I would not ask for anything unless it was absolutely necessary. Although I do not represent a constituency of saints, I will never go to my constituents and ask them to vote against the Government because public money has not been spent in the constituency. No public money was spent ' in my constituency when I supported the Government; I could never ask them to vote for me on that account. The acting Minister of Public Works says something about the St. John Valley railway. Yes, the Government gave a subsidy to the St! John Valley railway, and their political friends stole $100,000 at the very first crack," in one lump, a few days before the provin-[Mr. A. K. Maclean.!
cial election of 1912. I do not want public money sim.ply because of a desire that public money shall be expended. I commence to see light in this matter. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Burrell) sat here all last evening and all to-day; his colleagues from his own province were here, waiting and wondering when these infernal Grits would ever stop talking. The Minister of Agriculture has $200,000 in the estimates for telephones; his colleague, the. Minister of Inland Revenue, had one hundred bulls in his constituency after the last election. As Gadsby says, he converted a lot of them into benevolent neutrals, in order that they might be more docile in the yoke, and in order that they might work in the fields. When I see these two hon. gentlemen working together, not for the propagation of live stock, but for the prevention of the propagation of live stock-well, the plot thickens. The conspiracy is so absolutely patent that I think we should have some explanation from the Minister of Agriculture.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The member for Carle-ton suggests that there was an exchange of bulls for telephones; perhaps there was. That brings out another Teason why the county of Dorchester should be more in touch with civilization; if officers of the law could have been speedily informed about these bulls, perhaps the animals would not have been stolen. I have already drawn the attention of the former Minister of Public Works to the matter of entering upon new expenditures. At page 4354 of Hansard, I said:
When the war broke out we in Nova Scotia were willing to give up all our public works. We had large votes in the Estimates, and even before the war began, on account of the fall in the revenue, we were advised that we should cease pressing for improvements that had been promised, or from pressing for the expenditure of money that had already been voted. We were told by the minister that large c xpenditures had to be dropped ; that practically ail public expenditures that were not absolutely necessary were to cease. Accordingly, we have not been pressing the minister for any expenditure, although some of these works are very necessary.
The hon. gentleman accepted that as being the correct position. He answered as follows :
Mr. Rogers:	If my hon. friend, who says
that I am undertaking new work, will only look at the item he will see that there is a reduction in it of over $2,500,000, which is an evidence that we are adhering to our policy of economy during war time, even in such important matters as the great harbours of this country. The harbours enumerated here are national harbours. Before the outbreak of the war large contracts had been let for the pur-

pose of improving the harbours to meet the trade requirements of the country, and the amounts here asked for are simply to carry out the contracts that were then entered into.
The minister told us then that any large vote he was asking for was simply for the carrying out of contracts to which the country had already committed itself, and that nothing really new was being entered upon.
I read this for the information of the acting Minister of Public Works, so that he may see the real attitude which the gentleman responsible for the estimates took when this question was put up to him.
Saskatchewan and Alberta telegraph and telephone lines-extension of Lac La Biche telephone line, $1,200.


Frank Oliver: To what point is this extension being made?


John Dowsley Reid: This is required to extend the Government telephone line from Lac La Biche mission to Lac La Biche railway station, a distance of approximately eight miles.


Frank Oliver: Is there a probability that the work will be done this fall?


John Dowsley Reid: I can give the hon. member only the same answer that I have given to others. I have given instructions to the deputy minister to proceed with these works immediately now that the votes are passed. He tells me that, if possible, he will go ahead and carry out this work at once.


Frank Oliver: I would urge, to give this extension precedence for this fall if possible, because there is no telegraph line to Lac La Biche. The railway company have a telephone system along their line, but there is no means of the public reaching Lac La Biche by wire except over the Government line which does not reach Lac La Biche station, which is the place at which the business is being done. At present the Government line as far as Lac La Biche mission is practically useless; it is so many miles of line, which is of no value for the transaction of the business of the district. That condition will continue until the extension of eight miles is made so that the present line will be able to transact the business of the town at the railroad station. In the interest of the public and of the Government revenue. I would respectfully urge that the work be done this fall, so that we shall have the benefit of that extension during the winter.


John Dowsley Reid: I have just given the deputy minister instructions, and he and the superintendent of the telegraph servics, who is
also here, will pay special attention to the matter. Instructions will 'be given to-morrow to havg the work proceeded with.
Saskatchewan and Alberta-shifting- line to roadways, $8,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Will the minister explain this item?


John Dowsley Reid: This amount is asked for by the superintendent of the telegraph service for the purpose of shifting the telegraph lines t>om the farm lands to the roadways. The sum of $5,000 is required for Saskatchewan and the balance of $3,000 for Alberta. The lines were run through before the surveys of that country were made and they are all on the farmers' lands.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Are these telegraph or telephone lines?


John Dowsley Reid: Telegraph lines.
St. Paul de Metis-Durlingville telegraph line -extension to Beaver crossing, $4,500.


Frank Oliver: From what point and to what point is this extension being made?


John Dowsley Reid: From Durlingville to Beaver crossing on Cold lake, a distance of twenty-six miles.


Frank Oliver: Beaver crossing, I would
think, is the crossing of Beaver rivier, which is some little distance from Cold lake. I am anxious to know if the intention ie to extend the line to Cold lake ot only to the crossing of the Beaver river.


John Dowsley Reid: On the plan it is marked
"Extension to Beaver crossing, 26 miles." How much further would it be to Cold lake?


Frank Oliver: I- think it is four or five miles from the crossing of the Beaver river to Cold lake. It is not a great distance. Ic is, of qourse, very desirable to have the telegraph line as far as the crossing of the Beaver river, but if it were intended to put it through to Cold lake, that would be still more desirable, and I am anxious to know if that is the intention.


John Dowsley Reid: On this map, Cold lake and Beaver crossing are the same. Therefore, it would look as though the extension were to Cold lake.
Mr. MeKENZIE: The minister promised me some information in regard to some of the items for telegraph and telephone lines in Nova Scotia which were passed without *hsouss-.on. Perhaps he w:!l tell me how he proposes to make those repairs to the Cape Breton telegraph system, for which he asks $3,400.


John Dowsley Reid: The wire from Baddeck to the point of divergence is run on the telegraph poles, and new poles are provided for the rest of the distance.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: How far from the point of divergence do they run the telephone line?


John Dowsley Reid: The line is seven and one-half miles.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It goes on the poles already there for seven miles?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Then there is a break in to the shore. How far does it run down the shore?


John Dowsley Reid: It runs seven and one-half miles, and it starts off with telegraph poles, and come out two miles, and goes six miles behind the mountain to New Harris, so that would give eight miles of poles, and fifteen and one-half miles of wire.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: How far does that leave you from New Campbellton, which is further down the shore on the same line?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know that territory, and the deputy cannot inform me.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I was not consulted about this matter, and 1 do not know whose plan the hon. minister has before him. This is all a very deserving settlement, but I do not see why make two bites of a cherry. If it is accommodating that settlement at all it should go right down Jto New Camp-bellton, and I hope the minister will attend to it.


John Dowsley Reid: Is New Campbellton not already connected on the main line?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There is a telegraph there, and if a telephone were within decent reach it would be a great accotrunoda-tion.


John Dowsley Reid: I can quite understand that, but the hon. gentleman will see that this other territory is not served at all.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: BuLit must be 20 miles from where it stops to New Campbellton, and no line between. I think the minister will likely extend it down there by and by. With reference to the expenditure of $3,400 for the obtaining of poles and for repairs, where is that being spent, and who has control of it?


John Dowsley Reid: I am informed that the poles are purchased from the farmers all along the line.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It is a large system- the whole island of Cape Breton. What county is it in?


John Dowsley Reid: 
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Has the minister put
an upset price on poles?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, $1.25 with long haulage, and $1 for short haulage.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am surprised to find
that the poles from Gillesville to East Bay and Grand Narrows are all gone already. Those poles are only six ox seven years old. On whose report are all the new poles coming in? It is a comparatively new line.


John Dowsley Reid: I am told they are all spruce poles in that section, and the superintendent tells me that about seven years is the life of a spruce pole.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is there any particular report to the department for the necessity of these poles?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, there is a report from
the lineman. There is no doubt the poles are in ,bad condition, for1 otherwise they would not renew them.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The superintendent is present, and he will pardon me for being inquisitive about this tiling. When we had this famous election there were poles taken out all the way from Baddeck up to bay St. Lawrence and allowed to rot on the wayside. I .am anxious to have things done properly in my riding, and I am not in favour of encouraging a business of that kind. Who is to have charge of the business. Mr. Livingstone is the superintendent, and no friend of mine, and appointed by the present Administration. I believe he is a decent -man, and I should like to know if

this work is to be put in under Mr. Livingstone. If so, every chap who thinks he is a ward heeler can. get an order for telegraph poles, whether they are wanted or not.


John Dowsley Reid: I am informed that between Washabuck Centre and Iona is about seven miles, and that Mr. Dunlop who is <lead, was the line repairer at the time, and he ordered some poles without the authority of the department, but afterwards the poles were taken over. The poles were used on the line and there was no loss of any kind. There were not very many poles.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Where were they used?


John Dowsley Reid: Between Washabuck Centre and Grass pond. The poles I am referring to were the 309 poles.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There was no telegraph line between Washabuck Centre and ' Grass Pond. The minister is providing for poles between Washabuck Centre and McKay's point. If you are going to Grass pond you would go in 11 miles. That is down within two miles of Iona station, and there is no telegraph there at all, so the minister is misinformed.


John Dowsley Reid: I am only giving information as I have received it. The superintendent tells me there is a line between Washabuck Centre and Grass pond, that there are already seven offices on the line, and that those poles were used.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Of course the minister does not know the geography of the district. You can start from Washabuck Centre and follow the shore all the way around to Grass pond. If there is a line there now, why is the minister providing for the first three miles from Washabuck Centre down to McKay's point, along the shore?


John Dowsley Reid: Of course I do not know the geography. The superintendent tells me it is in the opposite direction, southwest of this line.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Will the minister tell me where are the offices between Washabuck Centre and Iona, and who have them?


John Dowsley Reid: The postmaster at Grass pond has one; then there are several by the name of McNeill who have offices.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What has the minister to say about Mr. Lavingston whose particular business it would be to look after this work? Is it the intention that he should have charge of purchasing those poles and seeing that the work is properly done?


John Dowsley Reid: The general repairers have charge of purchasing those poles. There are two in that section, one named Dunlop, and the other Joseph Logue.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If you put the matter in charge of Joseph Logue, it would be well and honestly done.


Alexander William Chisholm: I am informed that the Nova Scotia Telephone Company is going to build a line along the shore, parallel with the proposed line. If that be so, will the Government build its line along the same route?


John Dowsley Reid: We have never heard of it.
I will have the department make inquiries before we proceed with this work. Of course, it would be absurd to parallel another line.
British Columbia-Ashcroft-Barkerville telephone line-branch from 70-Mile House to Mount Olie, ?9,O0O.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I think before we come to this we should have an explanation from the minister on what certainly is a new policy to a very great extent at least. I have before me a return which was brought down a few days ago containing a copy of the papers with reference to the Government of the Dominion building competing telephone lines in British Columbia paralleling lines of the Okanagan Telephone Company already in operation. Up to the present time the Government has been justifying the expenditure of those comparatively large amounts of money on the ground that the lines were being constructed in out-of-the-way districts, putting the people of those districts into communication with the rest of the world, and that it was impossible for such communication to be established unless the Government came to the rescue. I thought he strained it to the breaking point in dealing with the county of Dorchester. We all know conditions there, and the minister did not try to explain it at all. He simply threw himself on the mercy of the House and said. "For God's sake put this thing through." We have an entirely different condition of affairs in the province of British Columbia. The minister may say the idea is to give telephonic communication to outlying settlers, but before he does so I want to point out a few things which appear in this return, so that he will not stumble too far into it. We find there has been a genuine competition going on in the province of British Columbia between a well-established company, known as the Okanagan Telephone Company, and the Government. The

question was, which was going to win out. Of course the inevitable happened-the Government won out, because the Okanagan Telephone Company had to furnish their own money and run the line as a business proposition, and could not compete with the Government, which was throwing in money at the rate of $25,000 in the first year, and in 1915-16, $97,000, and it is now up to $200,000, and no man on earth could tell where it would be if things were unfortunately allowed to continue for three or four years longer. I find from the statement made 'by the local superintendent, Mr. W. H. Stevens, that the system of the Okanagan Telephone Company comprises about 138 miles, and consists of trunk lines built to connect nine local exchanges. These exchanges are located at Salmon Arm, Enderby, Armstrong, Vernon, Lumby, Kelowna, Peachland, Sunimerland and Penticton. The Government system comprises about 1,300 miles, and has been constructed for the purpos'e of affording telephone service to the widely-scattered settlements throughout the region, while incidentally operating six local exchanges located at Nicola, Merrit, Princeton, Hed-ley, Keremeos and Chase. Then there came a fight between Enderby and Vernon, I think, and in some cases for nearly 100 miles-I am not exactly sure as to the mileage, but for a long distance in any event-the Government lines and the company lines were parallel, and, as if that was not bad enough, the Government actually built another line parallel to the company line.


John Dowsley Reid: How long was that?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Somewhere about fifteen or twenty miles.


John Dowsley Reid: Is it not the other way? Did not the company build after the Government line?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, the company built first and the Government line was built afterwards. It ran into 1916 and the matter was referred to the Minister of Agriculture. He took the very wise course of handing it back to the local superintendent. He said that the superintendent was on the ground and he knew the conditions better. But there was a recommendation by the Conservative Association. So they built the line. Finally it got so bad that they had to come to some kind of an agreement, and an agreement was entered into between the Government and the company. While I do not know the geography of that portion of

British Columbia sufficiently well to discuss it as the minister can, I think the great majority of these lines are in the minister's own constituency. I find here tens of thousands of dollars to be spent in the Okanagan country which I understand is in the minister's constituency. But here is one little thing that I can tell without being very intimately acquainted with the geography of the country. In the agreement between the parties it is provided that:
The company agrees to extend within three months the local circuit from Enderhy to Mara connecting with the Enderhy exchange to take care of the local business.
I find in these estimates this item:
Okanagan telephone system-establishment of rural system between Enderby and Mara, 52,100.
That must be the same thing. This carries out exactly the same idea as that laid down by the hon. Minister of Inland Revenue in Dorchester awhile ago in the House when he said: "The people want it." That is what is going on in British Columbia to-day. They made a trade with the Okanagan Telephone Company by which the telephone company is to do certain things; but sufficient political influence is brought to bear and the Government is doing it instead of the company.


John Dowsley Reid: When was that agreement entered into?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The 16th June, 1917.


John Dowsley Reid: These supplementary estimates were prepared some time ago and if that agreement was made since, of course, this item would not go on.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Well, if we knew these things we would discuss them.


John Dowsley Reid: When we come to the item we will strike it out.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The Minister of Agriculture has been for three or four years building up the Government telephone system in his county in competition with a private firm. Now he comes down to Parliament and asks for-and I suppose it will be forced through-a vote for $50,000 for building telephone lines. Why, he is worse than the Minister of Inland Revenue. That hon. gentleman only wanted a few miles. He is a poor innocent creature. The idea of the Minister of Agriculture entering into a conspiracy with the Minister of Inland Revenue and then beating him out to that extent-putting off the poor Minister of

Inland Revenue with a paltry $3,500 and taking $50,000 tor himself. The Minister of Agriculture must be covering every mount, crag and valley in his constituency with telephones. Then they jump over to Vancouver island. I suppose that is where our hon. friends from Vancouver island come in. I do not think they will contend that these are all extensions; they seem to be a lot of new works entirely. I realize that my hon. friends are all sitting around here, and I know that they are going to put up some plausible excuse for all this expenditure; but, after all, the only possible excuse is the election, nothing else in the World. These people know that without something like this they are in pretty bad shape in British Columbia, and they are simply calling upon the people in the eastern part of Canada to put up money to help them to win the election. I would think it pretty small business if the people in eastern Canada were playing the game that our friends from the West are playing. I suppose that nothing that anybody could say would divert the minister from carrying out the wishes of his friends, but this is opening up something which is very vicious. I do not know if you would expect it. There has been a good deal of talk about the Canadian Northern deal, but this is as bad as that-it is worse, because that is a great transportation proposition, it is in existence and it must be carried on in some way. Men may honestly differ as to the manner in which we should work out the Canadian Northern problem, but here is a new policy of spending public money which should be expended by the people of the locality, as is being done in nearly every other portion of Canada. All the telegraph and telephone lines which the Government have built heretofore, except in British Columbia, have been in outlying districts where there are very few people, but I learn by this report that they go into the city of Armstrong, and they are able to string their lines on electric light poles some sixty in number. Talk about going to the outlying districts. They find that traffic is so heavy that they are compelled to have additional facilities to enable them to carry on the business. Yet they say that it is necessary in order to give the people telephone communication. I think we ought to have some explanation of this matter from the minister. I am glad to see he is going to strike out one item. He should strike out the whole of those items excepting possibly that for the Yukon. I know nothing about that. I assume that,
if there is to be telephonic communication in the Yukon, it may be necessary that it should be provided by the Government. With that exception, I can see no justification for this expenditure excepting that it is necessary to get votes in the coming election.


Mr. BURRELL:: I do not purpose taking up very much of the time of the committee but I do not want to allow the remarks of my hon. friend-although I think they are not meant seriously-to pass without saying a few words. He seems to think that there is something sinister and peculiar in the extension of the telephone system in British Columbia. A good many remarks have been made about the system in British Columbia, and I think that the committee, or some members of it, are under some misapprehension regarding the whole matter. My hon. friend said that I seemed determined to cover every crag, valley and mountain in British Columbia with telephones. When I tell the committee that my own constituency of Yale-Gari-boo is twice as big as the whole of the Maritime Provinces, hon. members will understand that we are dealing with a condition of things that is in no way comparable with the condition to be found in any other part of Canada. This telephone system has sprung out of the desire to give communication to the old established settlements far from civilization throughout the province, and as the traffic would not justify any company in taking it up it was only natural that the Government should do it. It was not this Government that took the step first.
For instance, in the north end, in 1904, when I first went over my present constituency, I took a team of horses at Ashcroft, leaving the main line of the Canadian Pacific and drove 755 miles before I saw the railway again. There were settlements like Barkerville into which gold miners went from California in 1862. These men are hundreds of miles away from other settlements, shut off from every one else. There were men there in 1904 who had never even seen a railway, some of the old miners who had gone in there in 1862. I think it is perfectly desirable and justifiable that such pioneers, who have settled the remote parts, should have, .even at the expense of some of the more fortunate parts of the country, some of the advantages of modern civilization, particularly in the way of communication. There are cases like Barkerville. In


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That all sounds very nice from the standpoint of a meniber who wants public money expended in his constituency, and I have no doubt that everything the hon. minister has said is true. We know that if people go out into the mountains a hundred miles from Ashcroft on the Caribou road they must not expect much civilization. But they have been going there for fifty or sixty years and people have got along very well. Perhaps they have suffered in many cases from want of telephone communication, and there is no doubt that the telephone will be as great a benefit to these people as has been pictured by the minister. But you do not have to picture tilings like that. I am surprised that my friend took up so much time telling us the benefits of telephone communication with the outside world. We all know as much about that as he does, although
10 p.m. we may not know as much about the internal conditions of British Columbia. But any one who has ever been there knows that the Lord never intended very many people to live there anyway, and he will not be disappointed in the next'one hundred years.


Martin Burrell: While my hon. friend
says that the Lord never intended many people to live there, down in the Okanagan valley, for which many of these votes are asked, they have sent-and that is only a very small part of my constituency-nearly
3,000	men to the front to fight our battles.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, and they have sent them from all over Canada, too. It is no use of my friend trying to wave any flapdoodle flags. We are talking business tonight, and if my friend wants to get on his hind legs and talk that kind of thing vye will do it with him. But let us talk business now, and my friend can talk tomorrow on the other side of the case. He talks about sending 3,000 men from the Okanagan valley. Does he think that he is justified, under present conditions, in spending 8300,000 since the war began, in order to give telephone communication to his constituents? That is the question which I want him to answer. That is the ground on which I objected last night to the expenditure of a quarter of a million dollars in the constituency of the member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley); that is the ground on which we are finding fault with this whole transaction. My hon. friend talks about sending men to the war; yet he is willing to use $300,000 that ought to be devoted to taking care of these men and furnishing them with supplies and munitions. He does not seem to care two straws whether they get that money or not.


Martin Burrell: Where does my hon. friend get the $300,000?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Since the war began, taking into consideration this vote, the amount will be nearer $350,000 than $300,-000-that is for telephones alone in British Columbia. My hon. friend talks about sending men to the war; he had better try to get money to keep those men supplied with munitions. I was charged last evening with doing a mean thing when I tried to direct the attention of the Acting Minister of Public Works to the actual condition of financial affairs in Canada to-day. I doubt whether the members of this House really know how serious the financial conditions are. 1 know enough to make me feel that every man in Canada who has any desire to see Canada do its duty in this war must be very seriously concerned about our financial condition. If these were normal times and the Government were anxious to embark on the principle of public ownership of telephones, I know of no place in Canada where such services are more greatly needed than in British Columbia. But it is wrong to spend $300,000 to give my hon. friend's constituents telephone communication at a time when the money is needed so badly that I dare not say here how badly it really is needed. My hon. friend knows the conditions better than I do. These works may be called extensions, but after all they are new expenditures. The Government has taken over the Okanagan Telephone Company. The people in that country have got along all right for some years with the Okanagan Telephone Company and its connections; yet fifteen or twenty extensions are proposed from the Okanagan telephone line out into different parts of the country. It might be wise to engage in this work in times of peace, hut it is not all right in time of war, when undertaken by the Minister of Agriculture in order to get votes. At a time when the Empire is simply up against it in respect of the necessities of the war, the Minister of Agriculture presses the Minister of Public Works, against his will, to put a proposal like this through the House. I do not.think we had



better hear any more from the minister about the men that have gone to the front from his constituency.


Martin Burrell: I was not forced to apply for these votes. Many of them were not known to me; they were applied for by people interested who thought they were justified. My hon. friend showed unnecessary heat in regard to one of my remarks when he said that it was no wonder that few people settled in that part of British Columbia. I merely mentioned the number of enlistments as an indication of the number of the people there were in that particular valley.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend says that he did not ask for the vote. I find by this correspondence

	.


Martin Burrell: I did not say that I did not ask for any of it; I said that some of it was even unknown to me.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The minister had the
benefit of the advice of a gentleman who was very close to the gentleman who is sitting beside him (Mr. Stevens), and who,
I think, probably would know about the matter. The minister cannot take much credit to himself because he did not know of some of these items. I have no doubt that he knew about all of those affecting his own constituency.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I have no doubt that the Minister of Agiiculture is right in his desire that these people should have telephone and telegraphic communication with the outside world. I appreciate their necessity; I myself, if I lived in a place where I had no communication with the outside world, would be glad to be furnished with telephone communication. However, these people have been there since a little after 1849, at the time of the California gold craze; they have done without telephone and telegraph communication for a great number of years, and I suppose they got along very well. That was a very touching story that we heard about the man with the sick child; I always feel sympathy for people who are so situated. At the same time, when these people went into the country of their own free will, there was no telephone ahead of them, no telegraph, no railway, in some cases no roads. Last year we bought a railway because those who had lived in the locality in question for a hundred and fifty years had never had railway communication. These people are in somewhat the same box. During three years Canada has experienced condi-[Mr. Carvell.l
tions of financial distress; the people are being taxed very heavily for the carrying on of the war. They do not resent that, but they do resent the undertaking of new expenditure not connected with the war. I do not say that these expenditures are being undertaken for election purposes;
I do not know that that is true. But I do say that these people could get along very well without this accommodation until after the war is over. A few linkings up might have been provided for, but I think it is a shoit-sighted and uncalled for policy on the part of the Government to spend about $200,000 at a time when we require every dollar we, can get for our part in the war. When the main estimates were going through the then Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) told us that no new undertakings would be proceeded with this year, or during the war. We took his word for that, and passed his estimates a3 they came up. He was good enough to strike off many of the estimates that had been in for two or three years, in order to demonstrate his intention of really not undertaking any expenditure that could be avoided. As it is the intention of the Government to put these items through, no matter what we say about them, I suppose it is a waste of time to discuss them. However, I cannot but protest against this unnecessary expenditure during the war.


John Dowsley Reid: These items are all in the estimates, and I would like them to pass. As the Minister of Agriculture has stated, we will let the department look over the whole matter again, and if there are any items that we can stand over I will promise the hon. member that, unless the works, are urgently required, we shall not go ahead with them.


Mr. STEVENS:: It is too late in the season to go ahead with some of them.


John Dowsley Reid: As it is late in the season, we may not be able to go ahead with some of them. I will promise to keep the expenditure down to the very lowest possible point and to have the whole matter looked into again.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is a fair proposition, although I observe by the returns of last year that work was carried on during November and December. There is a return by Mr. Stevens, the superintendent, that one man was in charge from the 3rd of October to the 12th of November, at which date another man took charge, and there is nothing to show how long lie

woiked, so the fact that it is late in the season would not make any difference. I pointed out the night before last how they can do these things when it is necessary and when there is an election coming on. Last February, in New Brunswick, they built roads when there was four feet of snow on the ground, and the people of that province do not know anything gs compared with the people of British Columbia in regard to matters of that kind. With this pledge from the minister, while I do not withdraw my opposition, I do not feel it is necessary for me to say anything further on this subject.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I must again bring to the notice of the department my serious ground for complaint about expenditures of this kind. I have repeated over and over again that my people will expect n*e to bring this matter to the attention of the ' minister. The people of my province have had large votes and large works promised to them. They have harbours requiring improvements, and fishermen of my province are in need of breakwaters and wharves. The gentleman who was for some years responsible Minister of Public Works, (Mr. Rogers) told us that the situation was grave; that money was required for other purposes, and that we must not press for money at all. As I have shown from Hansard to-night, we accepted his word in regard to the matter, and we stopped pressing for these appropriations. We were told that all the money the country could get together was for one purpose only; that any other expenditures would be of the slightest possible kind and only in regard to matters of the greatest possible urgency. The Minister of Agriculture has been in this Parliament as minister since 1911. In 1911, 1912, 1913 and the early part of 1914, there was an overflowing treasury. He found the -treasury with $40,000,000 of a surplus in it, with all bills paid and the country carrying splendid sail, and everything all right. But during those years from 1911, to 1916 there was nothing in the estimates about those telephones and telegraph lines in British Columbia. Conditions have not changed in regard to them since my hon. friend became Minister of Agriculture. The necessity was just as strong years ago as it is now, and I cannot understand why a minister of the Crown should come to us at this stage, a few weeks before an election, with an extraordinary presentment of this kind. I think I have been in this House longer than
the Minister of Agriculture, and in my experience of fourteen years I have never seen a private member or a minister taking the responsibility of presenting for the consideration of a committee of this House such an array of items as he presents to us in the midst of a war and a few weeks before an election. He had five or six years of better conditions when those things might have been presented, but not a word was said about them The minister may be acting in absolutely good faith, but, in view of the conditions confronting us, it looks as if this were done for a purpose, particularly in view of the statement by the ex-Minister of Public Works that no extraordinary expenditure of this kind would be made. All the ministers, who are supposed to be strong men in their counties, who are supposed not to require to be bolstered andi propped up by expenditures of this kind to ensure their return to Parliament, should set a good example of economy, and should run their 'elections upon their strength as men and as ministers and not float their elections on votes of this kind. If a private member should present to the minister a list of items for expenditures on behalf of his constituency, what answer could he make? No answer at all.


William Pugsley: I wish to correct a statement which the Minister of Agriculture has made and which, I think, is an error. I do not say that he intentionally sought to mislead the committee, because I do not think the minister would intentionally mislead any one.


Martin Burrell: Certainly not.


William Pugsley: The Minister of Agriculture rather put forward the argument that these extraordinary votes were required because the people to be accommodated were in remote settlements in British Columbia shut out from the world, and that, therefore, it was only reasonable and fair that they should have telephonic communication. But the larger amounts are for telephonic communication in well-settled districts of British Columbia. Take for instance the Golden-Windermere line, the extension from Windermere to Fairmont. There is a daily train running all the way from Golden to the Crow's Nest line, as my hon. friend knows. The country is well settled and there are quite a number of prosperous villages, almost towns, in that locality. It is one of the most beautiful sections of country to be found in the world, and a private telephone

system would be almost as apt to pay there as in any other -part of Canada. Then again take the Okanagan valley. There are some eight or ten telephone lines there connected with the Okanagan Valley Telephone system. There is a railway from Sicamous Junction to the head of the lake, and there is daily steamer communication, summer and winter, from the head of the lake to the foot. The country is beautiful, rich and well-settled. That surely does not come within the description that the minister has sought to give to the committee of the localities occupied by those people to whom telephone accommodation is being given. Let us take the largest amount in the estimates, $28,000 for an extension from Ashcroft to Agassiz in connection with the Okanagan Valley Telephone system. Both of those points are stations on the Canadian Pacific. Thus the proposal is to spend $28,000 to build a telephone line between two important stations on that line of railway.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They have the Canadian Northern on the other side of it.


William Pugsley: It cannot be said that the people in that district are shut out from the world. They have the two termini, and the stations on the Canadian Pacific.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend shows he is unacquainted with the facts. The item he has mentioned, $28,000, was put in the estimates, I believe, on the strongest possible recommendation of the Board of Trade of Vancouver.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Henry Herbert Stevens: For this reason: hitherto the only telephonic communication between the large mining centres of the interior of British Columbia and the coast, the financial centres, has been Seattle, Spokane, and north from Nelson and further in. It has been an exceedingly difficult method of communication. By linking the line from Agassiz to Ashcroft, we can have a direct line through from the coast to the interior. One of the great trials in British Columbia during the 25 years that I have been a resident of the province has been to see millions and millions of dollars worth of business going to Spokane every year from the interior of British Columbia. Two things are going to overcome that. One is already in operation, the Kettle Valley railroad. That is one of the most necessary works to link up the coast district with the interior. This telephone system is another vastly important one. My hon. friend from Carle-ton (Mr. Carvell) mentioned another thing,

and that is the necessity for retrenching, because of economic conditions. I do not want to make any far-fetched argument. I am discussing this matter from a business and economic standpoint. We have been developing in British Columbia certain mining centres. We have Princeton and we have Hedley, and we have mining districts on the Kootenay further east again. These have all been linked up by the Government system, and they would never have been linked up by any other system. A great many of these items, while headed Okana; gan, have very little to do with the settlement of Okanagan. They connect the main Okanagan trunk line with outlying districts and with centres remote from civilization. The mining centres are usually away off in the mountains, remote from settled districts.
I will give one illustration, to give the committee an idea of what we are up against. One company has spent about $3,000,000 in the last two years in diamond drill work at Copper mountain. They have actually proven that there is over 11,000,000 tons of copper ore in the mountain, and they are tunnelling to take it out. That is only one company, and there are dozens. One of the greatest industries is mining, and the only way you can successfully produce from bur mining resources is by having adequate communication and proper methods. Those are essential.


William Pugsley: How far is that mine from the main Government line?	j


Henry Herbert Stevens: I should say it would be about ten miles.


William Pugsley: And that company. has spent $3,000,000 in drill work, and want the Government to provide them with a telephone? In New Brunswick the lumbermen would have provided themselves with a telephone, if they spent a fraction of that sum.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I say that is just an illustration of what one company is doing, and we have dozens in the interior in a similar position. As far as telephonic communication is concerned, nearly all that mining business has been done through Spokane. My hon. friend will see'on the file letters from the Vancouver Board of Trade, which have been working on this proposition for years, to try and induce the Government to put this line through. The telephone company out there, which operates on the coast, goes to Agassiz; it would not build the line from Agassiz to Ashcroft and into the interior. No com-

puny would do that. There is a stretch of country there which, if we can connect it up, will bring the whole business of the interior of British Columbia into Vancouver, and it is of vital importance, not only to Vancouver but to Canada as a whole, to keep the business as far as possible within Canadian channels. When 1 went to British Columbia we used to think the dr-y belt south of Kamloops was utterly useless except for gracing. I do not think that at that time there was a bushel of wheat exported from that district. Last year 250,000 bushels was exported from Kamloops, raised in the district to the south, to which it is desired to extend this telephone line. I received a letter yesterday from a man who had gune in there, taken up land and gone into farming, and he said the only way to induce people to go into these districts was to give them some sort of communication. Then there is the Okanagan valley, which exported to different parts of Canada, over
3,000	carloads of fruit and vegetables. The hon. gentleman must remember that if you are going to develop production in British Columbia, or anywhere else, you have to provide facilities. Unfortunately in British Columbia our agricultural land is in the valleys, and is split up by long ranges of mountains, more or less remote, and can only be reached by certain avenues of communication. These votes are for the purpose of linking up the scattered districts in British Columbia. I know my hon. friend is not serious when he casts a reflection on British Columbia as a desirable place in which to live, as I know when he was there two years ago he expressed considerable pleasure over his visit. We will not censure him in that regard, because I am sure he does not wish to reflect upon the province. Those who have lived there for many years think a great deal of British Columbia as a place to live in.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The old saying, "Every [DOT] man to his liking, as the old woman said when she kissed the cow," but if it suits my hon. friend I have no objection. However, the hon. gentleman has made the strongest argument against the granting of this money that could possibly be made. Tie is speaking of a country where the mining companies are spending $3,000,000 . in development, and taking out $10,000,000 worth of ore. They have a valley which exports 3,000 carloads of fruit. The country around Kamloops which was always supposed to be a dry country, last year exported a million bushels of wheat. In
our country, when we have conditions of that kind, we build our own telephone lines, we do not ask the Government to build them. No argument so absolutely condemns the proposition as that of my hon. friend from Vancouver.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My point is that there is a piece of country going through the Hope Mountain from Agassiz to Ashcroft, where there is no settlement, hardly, except on the line of the Canadian Pacific, running, as my hon. friend will probably remember, a distance of 85 miles or thereabouts. No company will build a line there, and our only communication between Kamloops and those districts which I have mentioned and Vancouver, is by a route about G50 or 700 miles, by way of Spokane and Seattle. It is absolutely absurd to say that the huge developments iu the interior of British Columbia are to be deprived of means of communication with the business centre and shipping facilities of Vancouver, for the want of a few mile? of trunk telephone lines.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is exactly what I
thought. There is enormous business in the centres and there is enormous business in Vancouver, but they will not spend their own money in order to get telephone communication.


Henry Herbert Stevens: How could the city of
Vancouver or the district around Vancouver spend money to have telephone communication?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They are spending money all over Canada. Capitalists are putting up the money. The moment there is business to be done they can get a telephone line, but as long as they have a paternal government, with the Minister of Agriculture saying, " Never mind whether you are getting money to pay for munitions or not, we will stand by you for the telephones," of course they will not put up their own money for telephones. Just as long as the minister holds out the hope that the Government will furnish the money, just so long will the capitalists sit back and let the Government do it. I am opposing this whole system of public ownership of telephones. The Government in its paternalism is building those lines, and if it left them alone they would be built by business men.


William Pugsley: Reference was made to the extension of lines from Ashcroft to Agassiz. I understand there is telegraph communication between those points.
Mr. STEVEN'S: Yes.


John Dowsley Reid: If the items are passed, the Minister of Agriculture and I will go through the whole list, and if we can see our way clear not to proceed with any of them, we will do so.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: You can do without them all.


John Dowsley Reid: We will do without as many as we can.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend knows
very well that the Railway Commission would give them authority to put a circuit upon the poles of the Canadian Pacific or tiie Canadian Northern between Ashcroft and Agassiz, if necessary.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Perhaps they are going to do that.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There are many cases
where the telephone wires are strung along the railway poles. If the business people of British Columbia wanted those lines, and were not looking to the Government for them, there would be no difficulty at all in getting the connection.
Okanagan telephone system-estabdshment of rural system between Enderby and Mara, $2,100.


John Dowsley Reid: I movie that thir item be struck out.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and item struck but.
Public works-chargeable to income-miscellaneous-river gaugings and metering-further amount required, $7,500.
John Dowsley Reid: This further amount of $7,500 is asked for by District Engineer Chapleau for maintenance of gauges above lake of the Woods, automatic and sight, calibration of power section Fort Frances-International Falls, office reduction of data and compilation. This work is necessary in order to collect data as to the fluctuation of various rivers so that information regarding all nvers will eventually be on record. The work done during the present fiscal year consisted of maintenance of gauges, securing and calibration of data, and general supervision of private works on the river.
Gratuity to Onesime Chayer, who was permanently injured while at work at Lake Timiskaming dam-further amount, $500.


William Pugsley: How much was paid to him before?


John Dowsley Reid: Five hundred dollars.
To pay Robert Dunbar for reporting proceedings at coroner's inquest into the death of the victims of the Parliament buildings Are, $74.40.


William Pugsley: Would the minister
kindly state whether it is intended to pay any claims which havie been presented for loss of property in the fire?


John Dowsley Reid: There was a statement made the other day to the effect that certain claims were filed, but they have not yet been considered. Of course they have nothing to do with this item.


William Pugsley: This item is for reporting proceedings.


John Dowsley Reid: It is to pay Mr. Dunbar for reporting proceedings at the coroner's inquest into the death of the victims.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister teU us how these property claims came to be filed?


John Dowsley Reid: The parties simply filed thsm.


John Howard Sinclair: Was there any indication given by the department that it would consider claims?


John Dowsley Reid: No, they just sent them in.
Construction and operation of water storage dams on Ottawa river and tributaries, surveys in connection therewith and settlement of land damages-further amount required, $20,000.


William Pugsley: I feel somewhat interested in this work, because it was initiated while I had the honour of occupying the position of Minister of Public Works. I would like to ask whether the results have been satisfactory.


John Dowsley Reid: It is working out satisfactorily.
Compassionate allowances to the widow's of the late members of the crew of dredge No. 6, who were drowned when the vessel was wrecked in a storm near Shag Rock, N.S., on the 17th January, 1917, as follows:	$2,000
each to the widows of Capt. L. A. Hatfield, Alzear LeBlanc, Harry Burrows, Peter Bonin, William Holland, John Greek, Gordon Miller; $1,000 each to the widow and mother of A. R. Solig, and $1,000 to the mother of Poster ICnickle-$17,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister explain the difference in the allowance given to the relatives of the members of the crew?


John Dowsley Reid: My information is that in the case of the married men $2,000 goes to the widows and families of the men who were drowned, and in the case of single men, $1,000 goes to the relatives. '


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The item says: " $1,000 each to the widow and mother of A. R. Selig, and $1,000 to the mother of Foster ICnickle "


John Dowsley Reid: In the case of Selig, $1,000 went to the widow and $1,000 to the mother.


John Howard Sinclair: The point is, one widow gets $2,000 and another only $1,000. This has occurred at different times during the present session.	.


John Dowsley Reid: In the case cf A. R. Selig, his mother and his widow get $1,000 each. They were both living with him. Foster Knickle was unmarried and his mother was living with him. She gets $1,000. The intention was to give $1,000 to each of the persons who were living with and dependent on the person drowned.


John Howard Sinclair: We have just passed an item for the widow of the late C. Gee who was drowned on June 14, 1917, near Nanaimo. In that case we have given $2,000. I cannot understand why one widow gets $1,000 and another $2,000.


John Dowsley Reid: In one case the man left a widow and a mother who were the only ones who were dependent on him. In the other case there was a widow with children. She had a small family dependent on her.


John Howard Sinclair: The dredge was wrecked on the eoast of my constituency. It was sent in the winter along the south coast of Nova Scotia at a very stormy season without any proper appliances to enable the men to escape. The hawser broke, the dredge went on the rocks, there was no lifeboat and no way of the men escaping. Their lives were apparently thrown away by the carlessness of some of the officials of the department. Has the minister a report of the accident from which he can give us some information? I do not think we have had any information beyond that which has appeared in the newspapers.


John Dowsley Reid: There was an official examination by the wreck commissioner and the report is in the department. I have not got it here now. I am told that the wreck commissioner exonerates the officials of the Public Works Department entirely.


John Howard Sinclair: Who was to blame?


John Dowsley Reid: It was the storm. It was an extraordinary storm.


John Howard Sinclair: Why was the dredge sent there in the winter time?


John Dowsley Reid: She had gone before over the same course exactly in the winter time and no trouble had resulted. But in this case a great storm came on. The wreck commissioner, if any blame could be attached to anybody, would have had no hesitation in placing the blame.


John Howard Sinclair: My recollection is that a tug was taking this dredge along the' coast and that the men on the dredge were those who were drowned. They had no life-boats and no means of escape. Because of a defective hawser, the dredge parted from the tug and was swept on the rocks. I do not know how everybody can be exonerated from blame for an occurrence like that. I have never seen- any satisfactory explanation as to why that dredge was moved from one part of Nova Scotia to the other at that season of the year. There was no work for it at the place where it was going, and it was not sent there, I understand to do any particular work at that time. There is a suspicion among the people who have suffered from this accident that somebody was to blame.


John Dowsley Reid: If there had been any possible chance of blame being attached to anybody, the wreck commissioner would have found some one to blame. But be exonerates the officials in every way. In the report I find it is stated that:
The court found that the loss of the dredge and scows was due primarily to the scow breaking adrift from the dredge; secondly, the Roebling's hawser parting; and lastly, to the inability of the crew of the dredge to get the Roebling's hawser on board the scow. The loss of the crew is attributed to the fact that they did not get in. their boats when they were first put in the water, and why they did not do so, the court failed to understand.
No blame was in any way attached to the department in connection with the loss of the dredge.


John Howard Sinclair: That does not explain
why the dredge went there in the stormy season.


John Dowsley Reid: We would not have much
to do with the details. They are all attended to by the officials of that department. But this report says that no blame should be attached to them. * I take it for granted that she was being sent at the end of the season.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the date of the wreck?


John Dowsley Reid: The report states:
They left Isaac's Harbour at 7.30 a.m., January 17, and at 9.30 a.m. the stern scow broke adrift. The wind was then W.S.W. and increasing, and sea rising. The Llsgar after having been signalled several times by the dredge, let go his hawser from the dredge and picked the scow up. At 11.45 a.m. the Roebling's hawser parted close to the dredge. After heaving the hawser in, they bent on a 3i-inch line, steamed down close to the dredge and after some time succeeded in getting the small line on hoard the dredge and told them on the dredge to haul in and get a turn with

the hawser-they did not do this but made the small line fast. Capt. Mood of the Roeb:ing then told them that he would try and turn the dredge round so as to give them a lee side to put their boats out on-he had just succeeded in getting the dredge round when the small line parted.
In the meantime the captain of the Lisgar when he saw that the dredge had broken/ adrift attempted to heave his line in, which he could not do and then gave orders to cut the line. When this was done he proceeded close to the dredge in order to render any assistance possible.
The dredge put both her boats in the water, while the tugs lay to leeward in order to pick them up-the boats of the dredge lay alongside for some time but no attempt was made by any of the crew to get in them. Finally, one boat capsized and the other one shortly after broke adrift.
A dory was then launched over the Roebl'ng's stern and drifted alongside the dredge. The dredge in the meantime had let go both anchors and swung head to the wind. No attempt was made by any of the crew on the dredge to get into the dory, which capsized and broke adrift about ten minutes afterwards'.
The Lisgar then proceeded into the Life Saving Station at Deeming Point, but found the life-boat broken up. She then proceeded out towards the dredge.
The dredge struck on Black Ledge, pounded over and sank at 2.30 p.m., in the vicinity of Stiag Rock.
Perhaps the hon. member knows these waters generally. I suppose that the dredges work pretty late in the season?


John Howard Sinclair: This was the worst
time of the year probably.


John Dowsley Reid: At all events, that is the
report we have.


John Howard Sinclair: It contains no explanation of why the dredge vas moved at that time. There is certainly an apparent carelessness on the part of the Marine Department in regard to the life saving station located at that port. -
From ihe statement of the minister it would appear that the lifeboat at that place was broken and was unable to give any assistance to the wreck. If the lifeboat had been in proper repair the lifecrew might have saved the lives of those men. That has been stated in the press on several occasions, and I have never seen any proper explanation of the lifeboat's condition. The late inspector said in a letter which I saw that the Marine Department was notified that the lifeboat was broken and a request was made foT a new one, but that request was disregarded by the department. Then the accident came and those men lost their lives. It is discreditable to the department if that is the case. I should like some explanation of the dredge 'being taken from Yarmouth, pr

from Lunenburg to Cape Breton at ttiat season of the year.


John Dowsley Reid: The dredge was being taken to Sydney to undergo repairs and receive a new boiler for the next season's work.


John Howard Sinclair: But there is no slip or dry-dock at Sydney.


John Dowsley Reid: She would not have to go
into dry-dock to have a new boiler put in. The department have had dredges repaired at Sydney.


John Howard Sinclair: Why did the dredge
pass Halifax?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know. It was going to Sydney. As to the question about, the lifeboat, the report says that there were boats enough on the dredge but that the men did not enter them.


John Howard Sinclair: The boats were too
small to live in that sea.


John Dowsley Reid: The report does not say that. Of course the question of the lifeboat comes under the Marine Department.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Does not the report say something about negligence in not dismantling the dredge?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not see anything of
that in the report.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister will understand that I am not in any way opposing the vote. My reason for insisting on some information is that the relatives of the men who were lost have felt, I understand, that some person was to blame and that there was carelessness on the part of both the Marine and Fisheries and Public Works Departments in this matter.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It is another case where the advice of this distinguished man whom the minister seems to follow in all these things proved disastrous to the lives of these men. This vessel was being dragged to Sydney for the purpose of
II p.m. getting work for J. C. Douglas' friends in the city of Sydney- some miserable patronage. It was being taken there in the midst of winter along the most dangerous coast of Canada, without being dismantled and without any precautions being taken, in order that a few dollars could be spent in Mr. Douglas' constituency. The result is that those meu have lost their lives and the Government has lost its property. It would be well for the minister not to be so very zealous in carrying out Mr. Douglas' representation;.

ana to be a little more careful about putting lives in jeopardy in mid-winter in order to please Mr. Douglas and to make a few miserable votes from the graft that might be made out of this vessel. There was no other reason for their going there at that time of the year.
Public works-chargeable to collection of revenue-Levis graving dock-further amount required. $2,500.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How is the work on the graving dock at Levis progressing?


John Dowsley Reid: The new dock will be completed and in operation this year.
Telegraph and telephone lines-Prince TOd-ward Island and mainland-revote of lapsed amount, $14,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister explain this item?


John Dowsley Reid: That is for two annual subsidies of $7,000 each due to the Anglo-American Company for 1915 and 1910.


John Howard Sinclair: Does a company own the line aftd the Government pay a yearly subsidy?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes. Since Confederation
this has been done. It was part of the terms of Confederation.


Rodolphe Lemieux: You control the rates?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: Why are we voting two year's subsidy now?


John Dowsley Reid: There was a dispute between the department and this company as to the rates that they should charge and as to other matters connected with the operation of the line. For this reason, during about two years the subsidy was not paid, pending final settlement of the dispute.


John Howard Sinclair: We get no revenue from it.


John Dowsley Reid: No. This communication is furnished under the terms of Confederation.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Navigation is closed for several months of the year between Pic-tou and the Madgalen islands. Under an arrangement made at my request, during the winter months the people of the Magdalen islands received over the cable a synopsis of news from the outside world, which was distributed to different places on the island over the telegraph line. Is that service being continued?


John Dowsley Reid: For all I know, it is. I do not know that there has been any change.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The cable between the Magdalen Islands and the mainland lands at a place called Meat cove. For about a year the cable was broken, and it was not repaired,-there was a good deal of complaint about the negligence of those in charge. On that account, for a time the winter news of which the hon. member (Mr. Lemieux) speaks was not conveyed from the mainland to the Magdalen islands. But the real reason was that the highly competent operator who had been in charge of the cable station at Bay St. Lawrence was dismissed by this Government. In her place they put two men, neither of' whom was a telegrapher. One was named .McNeil and the other McDonald; they are still there. No,, and then they pick up a boy here, and a boy there and get them to	do	some operating. It
was found convenient-by those who wanted to help them out-to keep this cable broken. There was a combination between the men who were in charge as operators and the men who were in charge of fixing the cable, and that convenient arrangement was carried out. The cable was not in a position to receive any news; it was so arranged that the blame would not fall upon those men. That is the condition there. The hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) will find that if the people on the Mgdalen islands expect to get a news service from the mainland, they will have to insist upon the Government putting a competent operator in charge of the operating station. The Government is paying big salaries to men who are absolutely incapable of doing the work.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Surely the minister Is not going to allow a charge like that to go by unnoticed? This is the worst pf all the charges that has been made during the course of these estimates. What has the minister to say about it?


John Dowsley Reid: All I have to say is this: It is hard for me to believe that any person in charge of a telegraph office would deliberately break the cable, as the hon. member ha.s stated.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I did not say that they had broken the cable. The line was left broken for over a year.


John Dowsley Reid: Then I misunderstood the hon. gentleman.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Hansard will show that I said nothing of the kind. The line broke at a convenient time, and for over a year

it was left in that condition without being repaired.


John Dowsley Reid: Well, we will put it that way-


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There is no need of putting it that way; that is what I said. I did not say that they broke the wire.


John Dowsley Reid: Do I understand the hon. member to say that this line was conveniently broken, and that it was kept in that condition for a year?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I did not say that it was broken by somebody. I said that it broke at a convenient season; that it was left in that condition all through the winter; that for over a year it was not repaired, notwithstanding the fact that the cable vessel Tyrian was in the vicinity.


John Dowsley Reid: It is hard for me to believe that any man would be capable of doing such a thing. However, the hon. gentleman has made these statements-


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I have made them, and I stand by them.


John Dowsley Reid: I am not asking the hon. member to take them back. As I have said, it is difficult for me to believe that any man would do such a thing, but as the hon. member has made the statement, I would not feel justified in letting the matter rest' at that. Whether I had answered the hon. gentleman's remarks or not, I would have asked the deputy minister to make inquiries and to get some explanation of the matter. Certainly if men would do a thing of that kind, I do not hesitate to say that they are not fit for the positions that they are filling.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They should be prosecuted.


John Dowsley Reid: They should be prosecuted il they did anything of that kind.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The minister is absolutely wrong in saying that I said that they broke the cable. I gave the minister all the data that he requires; I know what I am talking about. Let him inquire when Mr. Theriault and his wife were dismissed They were capable officials; they were dis-' missed for party reasons, without the slightest justification. Let him find out, also, when the cable broke; that must be a matter of record in the department. He will find that the cable broke very shortly after the change. I do not say that these people broke the cable, but I do say that the cable broke very shortly after these two incompetent peril Mr. McKenzie.]
sons were appointed. For over a year the cable was left in that condition; that also must be on record in the department. The minister will find that during the time when this cable remained broken, he had these incompetent men in charge-men who could neither receive nor transmit a message. That is sufficient data for an inquiry. Let the minister investigate the matter; he will find that I am absolutely correct.
Mr.i REID:	I shall certainly inquire
into it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Those men are still in charge.


John Dowsley Reid: The cable was broken and no business could be done. What I cannot understand-.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The minister says that the cable was broken. I repeat that the cable broke; I do not know who broke it or how it broke. The breaking of the cable, however, synchronized with the appointment of these men.


Rodolphe Lemieux: During the fifteen years that I represented Magdalen islands as part of the county of Gaspe, it frequently happened that the cable broke, because it is exposed to the shifting of the ice in that section of the gulf of St. Lawrence. Possibly that was the cause of the breaking in this instance.
As to the facts, I do not know. I know that the people of the Magdalen islands were given, during the. winter months, a synopsis of the news, and besides they had made arrangements with the Public Works Department through Mr. Keely, as they do most of their business with Halifax, Sydney, Pictou, and Nova Scotia generally, to wire their letters at a very low rate to the operator at Meat cove, and then the operator vvould^m.ail their messages to the firms at Halifax, Sydney or Pictou, thus facilitating business with the Magdalen islands during the winter months. My hon. friend may not know it, but there is a very interesting and large population in the Magdalen islands. There are 6,000 people there, and there are some very large industries, for instance, the lobster and mackerel industries. There are some very large firms from Nova Scotia operating on the islands, and in the spring, summer and fall of the year, Americans do considerable fishing in that district. According to the Fisheries Treaty, that is one, if not the only spot in the Gulf of St. Lawrence ivhere they can get their bait and enjoy all the privileges of our own fishermen, so that for several months in the

year the Magdalen islands are frequented by a large fleet of schooners and other vessels. In the winter months however, the islanders .are deprived of all communication with business firms on the mainland. I, therefore, made arrangements that they could wire their letters at a low rate to the Meat cove cable office, and the operator would mail them from that point. Each time, however, the breakage occurred, the Tyrian, which is the repairing vessel in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, could at once find out the break and make repairs; but I never heard that the cable had been out of business for such a long period as this.


John Dowsley Reid: That is a surprise to me too.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If that is the case, it is bad for the department, and I would urge the minister to see to it that this cable is put into proper order.


John Dowsley Reid: It is a surprise to me, too,
that the cable should be out of order for a year. I cannot understand it because the officials of the Department of Public Works, with whom I have come in contact during the different times that I have been	acting as minister	of
that department, have, always, in my judgment, been very capable men and very attentive to their duties, and unless there was some reason why that vessel could not be got, I cannot understand how the break could have been left for a year. During the war the Tyrian might have been employed on some other work from which it was hard to take her away. I have no explanation to offer why that break was not repaired within a year, but I will certainly make inquiries.


William Pugsley: It would be better to let the item stand until the minister gets the information.


John Dowsley Reid: There is no item in connection with the Magdalen islands.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister see that the news service is re-established; that the cable is repaired, and that the same system is maintained as regards the mailing of letters from the cable office?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, but the deputy has no information to show that the cable lias not been repaired.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I think it is repaired now.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon, member has just asked if I will see that it is repaired, but I understand that it is repaired. I understand also the news service is going on.


John Howard Sinclair: Who recommended the dismissal of Mrs. Theriault and the appointment of McNeil and McDonald as operators of this station?


John Dowsley Reid: I have not that information.


John Howard Sinclair: I think the minister ought to give that information to the committee. It is rather a serious matter if, at an important station like that, we have incompetent men appointed by some political influence, although unable to send a message. It looks like a very foolish thing for us to vote money to maintain a cable line if the people at the station are unable to send the message. What does the minister say to that?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know whether I can get the information as to who recommended the dismissal and the appointments. Those recommendations, of course-


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 1 guess it is Mr. Douglas all right. He does all that work down there.


John Dowsley Reid: If that answer is satisfactory to the hon. member, of course, I am willing to let it go. I do not know whether I can get that information or not. I can ascertain whether this man is really capable to fill the position. I shall have to take the opinion of the officer in charge.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister bring down all the correspondence and papers in connection with the dismissal and appointment of these parties?


John Dowsley Reid: I have told the deputy minister that, if there is any correspondence in the department, to bring it to me, and I will bring it down or send it to the hon. member.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That matter was In charge of Mr. A. B. McDonald, who is now chief electrician of the Government on board of the Tyrian, a most capable man who was operator at that station for many years, and who, no doubt, was receiving and sending those cable letters. When he was appointed as inspector by the former Government-and Mr. Macdonald was a friend of the present Administration, having been there long before the change in 1896-he left the office and moved away with his family. Mr. Theriault, a former resident of the Magdalen islands, was appointed in his place. Mr. Theriault was not much of an operator himself, but his wife was a most capable operator. She taught her sons to send the messages, and she and her children took charge of the

office. Shortly after this Government came into power, these people were dismissed without the slightest justification, and two farmers and fishermen, who had not any more knowledge of telegraphy than I have, were appointed. How they got along, I do not know, but Providence intervened and broke the cable. With the cable broken, there was very little for them to do, and they have got along nicely up until now atid are drawing handsome salaries. It was a case of the cable be darned and let the farming go to the dogs while they drew their salaries in this way. That is the situation exactly. Whether telegraphy grew into their heads without their receiving any instruction, I do not know, but there they are, and the minister can see them there any day in the week.
Telegraph and telephone lints-British Columbia mainland-further amount i eqired, $2,200.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Surely British Columbia ought to have been satisfied with what they have already received this evening.


John Dowsley Reid: This is a small amount.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What is it.for? Eight
01 nine thousand is a small amount for British Columbia.


John Dowsley Reid: This is for increases in the salaries of those who are receiving less than $1,200. This increase is made on account of the high cost of living, and the operators are getting small pay.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: On what principle are
the tolls from rentals based in the telephone system in British Columbia? Is it the same as in Nova Scotia, o; have they a modern system where people can rent a telephone, as in other parts of Canada?


John Dowsley Reid: The only information I can give the hon. gentleman is that given in the official report.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is nothing in that.


John Dowsley Reid: The information in this book is as follows:
Kamloops-Okanagan Valley System (Telephone).
Local an! thro.igh rates, 25 cents to CO cents, according to distance between offices 100 miles apart or over, in stretches of 50 miles':
Where message rate is 25c. for 10 words, 2c.
for extra wor.s: conversation 10c. per minute. Where message rate is 25c. for 10 words, 3c.
for extra words : conversation 15c. pe- m'nute. Where message rate is 40e. for 10 words, 3c.
for extra words : conversation 2Cc. per m ni te. Where message rate is 50c. for 10 words, 4c.
for extra wo ds: conversation 25c. pe- m nute. Where message rate is 60c. for 10 words, 4c.

for extra words: conversation 30c. per minute.
Minimum charge for messages, 25c.; for conversation, 15c.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is for telegrams.


John Dowsley Reid: No, this is the Kamloops and Okanagan telephone system.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Any charge for listening?


John Dowsley Reid: Fifteen cents per minute in some cases. Then we have the rates for the Salt Spring Island telephone system as follows :
Local rate-Conversation, 2 minutes, 25c.; each additional minute, 15e.
Through rate-The above line connects with the B.C. Telephone Co. at Duncan Station. The company's tolls are added to the above rates on through business.
Conjoint rate-between offices on the above island and offices on the C.P. line, on government line reached by the C.P. telegraph on Vancouver Island, 25.2.
Then there is the Golden-Windermere telephone line:
Local and through rate, 25.2.
Subscribers for telephone at $3G per year are exempt from above tolls for messages.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: If a man rents a telephone, and pays $36 a year, he has the long distance thrown in.


John Dowsley Reid: No, he can only telephone on that exchange. Then the Vancouver Island line:
Local rates between offices, 25.2.
Conjoint rate between offices on government line and C. P. telegraph line on Vancouver Island, 25.2.
Through rate, business exchange with Canadian Pacific telegraph at Nanaimo and Victoria, same as local rate, 25.2.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I was asking as to
whether the same system prevails in British Columbia as in Nova Scotia. It seems to me that, in Nova Seotia, only a favoured few can obtain telephone, and practically there is no rental at all, as I understand it. They pay a certain rate for a distance beyond the main line. The telephone is put in a man's place of business, and that is the sort of public place where business comes. But there is no such thing as rental as known in the telephone world. Does that condition of things obtain in British Columbia, or are there rentals? .


John Dowsley Reid: In British Columbia it is the, ordinary telephone system. They rent the telephone.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What is the rental?


John Dowsley Reid: In British Columbia $36 a
year.

Prince Edward Island and mainland-revote of lapsed amount, $14,000.


Mr. MACDONALD:: I was not in when the Prince Edward Island and mainland vote was passed. Was 'that for cabling or telephone? I understand there is telephone communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland.


John Dowsley Reid: I explained that item of $14,000 in the estimates. An agreement was made at the time of Confederation that the -Government were to keep up that communication, and $7,000 a year was the arrangement made with the Anglo-American Telegraph Company. Since Confederation the Government have been paying $7,000 a year as a subsidy. This has been paid every year. This $14,000 is for 1915 and 1916. The reason it was not paid in these years, as I explained, was this: The Department of Public Works was negotiating a new agreement with the Anglo-American as to the rate of toll-and the hon. gentleman knows when you come to make an arrangement for tolls it cannot be done in a hurry. While negotiations were being carried on the Department of Public Works refused to pay the subsidy. When an agreement has been made and signed the Government has to pay the subsidy, and not having paid it in 1915 and 1916, they have to pay it now-.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Nothing to do with telephones?


John Dowsley Reid: No.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Will this matter come under the Railway Board?


John Dowsley Reid: I suppose so, 'because all these rates are under the Railway Board of Canada.
Laprairie-repairs to wharf and completion of approach, $4,000.
Three Rivers-repairs to wharf - revote, $9,500.


John Dowsley Reid: These two items were held over. The Laprairie-Napierville item was for repairs to wharf, but I am willing that that item should be struck out. The wharf should be kept in repair, but we will drop it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I saw the hon. gentleman from Laprairie, who was called away, and he maintains the objection he made last night. I know the conditions because I was brought up in that district. In' the old days there was a steamer service between Montreal and Laprairie, hut this was abandoned ten years ago. The last boat
which plied between Montreal and Laprairie was destroyed by fire seven or eight years ago, and you can see the remains of the steamer near the wharf, and the cham-nel which was used by that steamboat from Montreal to Laprairie has been partly filled, so that even if you were to repair the wharf, which is not badly in need of repair, you would have to dig a new channel between Montreal and - Laprairie for that size o.' boat.


John Dowsley Reid: I am striking it out.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is not necessary.


John Dowsley Reid: There was the other item for Three Rivers, to which my hon. friend (Mr. Bureau) raised some objection last night. Last year we had an appropriation of $20,000 to repair this wharf, which is used on a large scale for the unloading of coal. The officials tell me it is absolutely necessary to finish up this work, and I would not feel justified in dropping the item altogether. I will have to ask the committee to allow it to stand.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Still you have the objection made by the hon. member from Three Rivers, which seems to be very radical. He said last night:
An additional amount was voted to complete the work, and it seems to he in perfect shape now. It was filled up with quicksand. That was washed out and it was refilled, branches, dirt and sand being put on the top. I do not see where the work is now required. They have been putting stone on the end of the wharf that faces the current and that meets the ice jams in the spring.
Considering the view taken by the hon. member from Three Rivers, who has a perfect knowledge of the situation, I do not see how the minister would be justified in maintaining that item.


John Dowsley Reid: I hardly think the hon. member for Three Rivers went into the matter as thoroughly as he should have done.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister promise in this ease, as he did in the case of the telephone lines, that before spending the money he will see that a proper inspection is made, and that no money will be spent unless it is absolutely required.
Mr. .REID: I will certainly do so.
New Brunswick-St. John harbour-extension of and repairs from Negro Point breakwater, $250,000.


William Pugsley: Would the minister
state what the work would cost?


John Dowsley Reid: The work if proceeded with
would cost $750,000 to complete. We will

have to look into the matter thoroughly. In the meantime I would like the item to stand.


William Pugsley: Are the figures based
upon the idea of utilizing stone from Partridge island?


John Dowsley Reid: The parties tendering were
free to take the stone from wherever they wished.
Ontario-Stayner-public building, $10,000.


William Pugsley: I believe the minister
was going to consider the advisability of striking out this item. I think he should be guided by the fact that when the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) was asking for the passage of the Bill relating to taxation, and indeed in bringing forward subsequent measures, ne gave his assurance to the House that no new work would be undertaken. I think that pledge should be lived up to. A great many items have been struck out on that ground.


John Dowsley Reid: I agree that that was the
understanding, and therefore I am not sure that we will go on with the work.


William Pugsley: I think it would be
better if the item were struck out.


John Dowsley Reid: Perhaps it would be ns well to leave it in, and we will not proceed with it if it is new work.


William Pugsley: It must be new work,
because the amount is required to buy the land.
Mr. REID.- If that be so, I suppose we will have to strike it out.


William Pugsley: The fact of it being there _is evidently a printer's error.


John Allister Currie: That is a very worthy
building, and it happens to be in a good Liberal town.
Mr. PUGSLEY': The building is only imaginary as yet.


John Allister Currie: Of course, if my friends
on the opposite side of the House want the item struck out, it cannot be helped.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What county is Stayner in?


John Allister Currie: It is the town of Stayner, which has done a lot for the war, and has never had a cent spent on it. in its whole history. I think it is only right that the town should be recognized.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Let it wait until we have a union government.


John Allister Currie: If we have a union government, of course the work will go on.


John Howard Sinclair: Are they all Liberals
there?


John Allister Currie: As a matter of fact there is no truce now, as there was when the statement was made that no new building would be proceeded with. When that statement was made there was a political truce between the parties, but the situation is changed now. The Opposition has forced the Government to go to the country, and I do not see why it is absolutely necessary that the arrangement made then should be carried out. During the last two days I have heard) nothing but abuse of the Government. Not a single item in the supplementary estimates passed without some blame being imputed to the Government. It was claimed the items were for a wartime election. If I had been the Minister of Public Works, I would have given a wartime supplementary estimate to hon. gentlemen opposite, and give them some excuse for kicking.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We think you would.


John Allister Currie: So did the hon. gentleman and there is no better politician or party man in this House than himself. As far as this public building in Stayner ,1s concerned, if hon. gentlemen opposite arc opposed to it, if they w'ant it struck ouf and if there is any agreement to firike on*, we will strike it out and let them take the blame.
St. John harbour-extension of and repaii-s to Negro Point breakwater, $250,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This is the only item of the Public Works Department left. I cannot add anything to what I said except that the work will cost probably between $750,000 and $1,000,000 before it is completed. This is asked for the commencement of the work and so much will be spent per annum. I would suggest letting the item go through, and of course we would have to consider going on with the work in view of the statements which have been made by the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) and the hon. member for Carleton (Air. Car-vell). If the committee desire further information I will let the item stand.


John Allister Currie: If there is anything in the argument that no new work should be undertaken during war time, it is unfair to strike out the item of $10,000 for Stayner and then ask to have a quarter of a million dollar item left in as hon. gentlemen opposite are asking.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No.


John Allister Currie: The hon. member for St. John is well known to be very friendly towards this item. This is new work and it is not needed at all. It can very well stand over during the war, and I think the minister should strike the item out. There is no argument in favour of it that I can see as far as the rest of the country is concerned.


John Dowsley Reid: We will let the item stand.


John Allister Currie: I will be right here to fight it the next time it comes up.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am not here to fight for St. John-it can take care of itself-bat there seems to be an argument in favour of leaving it in. The minister tells us that he has to call for tenders and that he is likely to accept one.


John Dowsley Reid: I have not accepted any. Tenders were called for but no action was taken.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: How many were received5


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: It is not usual to ask. for tenders and then strike out the item.


John Dowsley Reid: Six regular tenders and four irregular.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Irregular In what way?


John Dowsley Reid: We required a certified
cheque with each tender, and no cheques were sent. Those that -were irregular were considerably higher than the lowest tender that was regular. I can say that the lowest tender is not that of a New Brunswick firm.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Why do you not tell us all about them and who they are?


John Dowsley Reid: I would not have any objection except that I have just got a memorandum now from the deputy and the tenders have not been submitted to council. It is not customary to give information about a matter of this kind until it has been submitted to council.


William Pugsley: If the item is to stand over for a day or two I would be agreeable, but -otherwise I would like to present some very strong reasons for passing the item. This is a revote. The item was voted by Parliament two years ago and tenders were called by the minister for this work which was deemed very necessary and apparently essential for the protection of the harbour. Owing to the lowest tender being higher than the amount the minister thought he ought to expend,
he decided to call for new tenders. New tenders were called for under the previous vote. This is really a revote. .


John Allister Currie: Will the hon. gentleman tell me why it is not mentioned here that it is a revote? It says:
Extension of and repairs to Negro Point breakwater, $250,000.-


William Pugsley: I do not know; but my hon. friend will find that what I say is true. It may be that tenders were called for to be paid out of the general vote for St. John harbour.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, that is the reason.


William Pugsley: I understand it was decided to make a change in the kind of stone that might be used. The previous tenders required that granite only should be used in the breakwater. A change was made in the hope that the tenders would be for a considerably lower amount. But, undoubtedly the vote in Parliament two years ago authorized the calling for tenders. The reason the work was not gone on with before was the belief that by .making this change it would be done at a lower cost.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am willing that the item should stand, but I do not go back on what I said last evening. This is a new work in my judgment and I want to be fairly consistent. I opposed the rest of the new works and I oppose this.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the use of allowing this item to stand if we will not embark upon any new work?


John Dowsley Reid: The reason I ask that it be allowed to stand instead of striking it out is that I am only acting for the department and I would like to submit it to my colleagues.


John Howard Sinclair: It seems to be agreed that, the Minister of Finance having made that announcement, the committee is bound by it. I agree with my hon. friend' from North Simcoe (Mr. Currie) .that Stayner and St. John ought to be treated alike. I am prepared to vote to strike that item out.


William Pugsley: I sincerely trust that the most my hon. friends wrould ask would be that the matter should stand a day or two so that it can be looked into. It is not a new work in the ordinary sense. The breakwater has been extended out from Negro point comparatively close to Partridge island. The department has done a lot of work, has built wharves, and the

opinion of experts is that the closing of this gap is necessary to protect the wharves and also the very large amount of shipping that is coming to the harbour and using these wharves on the western side. Therefore, this is simply carrying on a work which lias been in progress for a number of years.


John Dowsley Reid: My reason for asking it to stand is this: Tenders have been called for, they are in the department and I would not like to dispose of the matter without consulting my colleagues. We might allow the whole item to stand and I will bring it up when members are present without taking any advantage or asking it to be passed in their absence.


John Allister Currie: The hon. member for St. John wants to knock out a $10,000 item in Ontario, but he objects to the leaving out of an item for a quarter of a million dollars of which Ontario pays a large proportion. One item should stand against the other.


William Pugsley: I would not do any injustice to any part of Ontario, or any other portion of Canada, but in the case of this building I have no doubt the post office is being carried on in rented premises. The land has not been purchased. The report says that the vote is required to purchase the land. The ex-Minister of Public Works last session dropped similar items with respect to public buildings and made the announcement that no public building would be undertaken while the war lasts.


John Allister Currie: Hundreds of thousands
of dollars needed to repair docks and improve harbours in Ontario, but there has not been a dollar of new work put in. This condition at St. John has existed from time immemorial.


William Pugsley: No.


John Allister Currie: There is no condition there that requires any change, and we could go on for three or four years more without having this work done. I quite agree with the hon. member that this is new work, and hy what means of hocus-pocus that big item of a quarter of a million dollars can be put in these estimates, and even before it appears in the estimates tenders can be called for, is, I fancy, something entirely new in this department. This item is not urgent, and I think if one item stands the other should stand. If it is any money to be spent at St. John the late minister stands up for it, but he spends the time of this

House trying to stick his knife into . the items of other provinces, and I think it is time he was called in that respect-because if the rule is to be applied it should be applied all round. If it is a good rule, I am willing to abide by it; but let the hon. member for St. John abide by it and take the advice of his own colleagues and ask the minister to strike the item out.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend is labouring under a very grave misapprehension. I did not try to stick a knife into-


John Allister Currie: You are, all the time.


William Pugsley: I never did that. On the contrary, when I was minister and since that time, I have always encouraged development in all parts of Canada. See what has been done in the hon. member's own constituency, at Collingwood, and all through western Ontario. Very important works were constructed. I would appeal to representatives from these sections of Ontario as to whether or not I showed a generous spirit, not a niggardly spirit, in regard to improvements. The hon. member seems to think that conditions in St. John are what they have been for many years. That is not so. There has been a very large degree of harbour development there; a great deal of dredging has been done, and the wharves have been built lower down the harbour and nearer to the gap from which the southwesterly'storms affect the harbour, and it becomes, so these experts say, necessary to protect-


John Allister Currie: What experts?


William Pugsley: The enginers and people connected with the harbour, experts of the department. There is a vast deal of shipping coming to St. John. It would amaze the hon. member to know what is being shipped to Great Britain, largely munitions and supplies for the Allies. Many vessels with cargoes of enormous value sail from the harbour, and those familiar with the harbour assert that it is necessary to fill up the gap in order to protect the shipping now coming in such great quantities to the harbour, and also that it is necessary to protect the wharves upon which a large amount has been expended by the Government.


John Allister Currie: I think the whole item looks very suspicious. For that reason I think the best thing we can do is to strike it out altogether.

Mr. LEM1EUX:	With the Canadian
Northern?


John Allister Currie: Well.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
On motion of the Hon. Mr. Reid, the House adjourned at 12 o'clock midnight.
Thursday, September 6, 1917.