1917-06-06

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. E. Armstrong presented the report of The Special Committee to whom was referred Bill No. 13, to consolidate and amend the Railway Act, as follows:
Your Committee have under consideration Bill No. 13, an Act to consolidate and amend the Railway Act, and have agreed to report the same with amendments.
Your committee also submit herewith their minutes of proceedings and evidence, and recommend that the same be referred to the Printing Committee with a view to having the whole printed in blue book form and as an appendix to the Journals of the House.

[Stage Direction]
Sir Robert Borden moved:
That the recommendation of His Honour the Speaker, laid on the table of the House on the 14th instant, respecting the appointment of Mr. Herbert Charles Stock to the position of messenger in the Library of Parliament, be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Sir Robert Borden moved:
That sessional paper No. 183, laid on the Table of the House on the first of June, instant, comprising reports from the several departments of the Government in respect to printing, etc., pursuant to a resolution of the House of the 18th May, 1916, be referred to the Joint Committee of both Houses on the Printing of Parliament.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: Yesterday I asked that this motion should stand in order that I might have occasion to refer to it later. I have looked into it and it is all right.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Report concerning the production, cost, price, and -system of distribution of sugar; a like report concerning anthracite coal.- Mr. Crothers.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks.)

Mr. TOBIN:: Referring to the statement of the Hon. Member for Victoria-Haliburton on page 439 of Hansard, February the 2nd, as follows:-

"Mr. Carvell: Would the right hon. gentleman let me know whether he found out during the dinner hour who it was that ordered or was responsible for the reduction of the Ross rifle from *462 to *4'57 in 1910?"
"Sir Robert Borden: I stated at the time that my information did not come from the Department of Militia and Defence, but that it was reliable. I have asked the Deputy Minister to produce absolutely accurate information on that point, which' I shall give to the Committee."
"Sir Sam Hughes: I understand that it was on the recommendation of Colonel Harkon, the expert adviser to the Militia Department under Sir Frederick Borden. The Standing Committee on Small Arms was never consulted."
1.	Was this statement of the member for Vic-toria-Haliburton, in regard to the reduction of the chamber of the Ross rifle, from .462 to .457 in 1910?
2,	Is there any report in the Militia Department from Colonel Harkon recommending the change in the Ross rifle referred to?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	It is regretted that the Department of Militia and Defence is unable to answer this query.
2.	No.


HIGH COST OF LIVING.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Has the Government received a resolution from the Trades and Labour Council of Montreal, adopted on or about May 17, in which the said Trades and Labour Council referred to the high cost of living, and alleging the same was increasing to alarming proportions and also alleging that profits from such sources were not in the interest of the Dominion and recommending severe measures be adopted without delay to prevent the same, and referring to an Order in Council passed with a view of preventing dishonest speculation and alleging that efforts to carry out such Order in Council have proved ineffective owing to legal technicalities and delays in investigation and from other causes, and requested the repeal of such Order in Council and to enact legislation which will more clearly and effectively carry out the intentions of the Government.
2.	If so, what measures does the Government intend to adopt in the premises?


Mr. CROTHERS:: 1. No. That answers the second question.


GOVERNMENT WHARF AT GASCONS.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Is it true that the Government wharf at Gascons, Quebec, is so damaged that it cannot be used by steamers or sealing craft?
2.	If so, (a) what is the extent of the damage (b) when and how was it caused ?
3.	Will said damage be repaired?
4.	If so, when?	'


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	A portion was carried away and only small vessels can use the wharf.
2.	(a) 210 feet long by 40 feet wide is damaged; (b) by a storm on 16th December, 1916.	[DOT]
130i
3 and 4. This information will be given when the Supplementary Estimates are laid before Parliament.


INSTRUCTIONS TO GENERAL LESSARD.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	At what date did General Lessard receive from the Department of Militia authority for recruiting in the Province of Quebec?
2.	What was the nature of his instructions?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1.	29th March, 1917.
2.	He was invited to assist Lieut.-Colonel The Honourable P. E. Blondin in recruiting in the piovince of Quebec, principally among the French-Canadian population.


EXPERIMENTAL FARMS. .
Mr. EDWARDS:: 1.	How many experimental farms are there in Canada, and where and when was each established?
2.	How many experimental farm stations are there in Canada, and where and when was each established?


Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Five, namely:	Central Experimental
Farm, established at Ottawa, 1887; Experimental Farm for Nova Scotia, established at Nappan, 1887; Experimental Farm for Mani. toba, established at Brandon, 1888; Experimental Farm for British Columbia, established at Agassiz, 1888; Experimental Farm for Saskatchewan, established at Indian Head, 1888.
2.	Sixteen, namely:	Experimental Station for Prince Ediward Island, established at Charlottetown, 1909; Experimental Station for the Annapolis and Cornwallis Valleys, established at Kentville, N.S., 1910; Experimental Station for New Brunswick, established at Fredericton, 1912; Experimental Station for Eastern Quebec, established at Ste. Anne de la Piocatiere, 1910; Experimental Station for Central Quebec, established at Cap Rouge, 1911; Experimental Station for the Eastern Townships, established at Lennoxville, Que., 1913; Experimental Station for Northern Quebec, established at Spirit Lake, 1916; Experimental Station for Northern Ontario, established at Kapuskasing, 1916; Experimental Station for Southern Manitoba, established at Morden, 1915; Experimental Station for Central Saskatchewan, established at Ros-them, 1900; Experimental Station for Northwestern Saskatchewan, established at Scott, 1910; Experimental Station for Southern Alberta, established at Lethbridge, 1906; Experimental Station for Central Alberta, established at Lacombe, 1907; Experimental Station fox the Okanagan Valley, establish-

ed at Summerland, B.U., 1915; Experimental Station lor the Upper Columbia Valley, established at Invermere, B.C., 1911; Experimental Station for Vancouver Island, established at Sidney, 1912; Tobacco Experiment Station, established at Famham, P.Q., 1912; Tobacco Experiment Station, established at St. Jacques de l'Achigan, 1909; Tobacco Experiment Station, established at Harrow, Ont., 1909.


GLANDERED HORSES.
Mr. EDWARDS:: 1.	What is the compensation allowed for destruction of horses afflicted with glanders?
2.	When was the compensation fixed at the present amount and what was it formerly?


Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Two-thirds the valuation of the horse destroyed which must not exceed in the case of a grade animal $200 and in the case of a pure bred animal $500.
2.	On the 15th July, 1913. Previous to that date the compensation allowed was two-thirds of the valuation, which might not exceed in the case of a grade animal $150 and in the case of a pure bred animal $300.


HONOURABLE ROBERT ROGERS.
Right Hon.   S@: Mr. Speaker, on the 28th day of May, the hon. the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) addressed to me a letter which I desire to read to the House and which is as follows.-.


Sir SAM HUGHES:: Might I respectfully ask the right hon. the Prime Minister to speak a little louder? We cannot hear one word back here.


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: I had said that on the 28th day of May the hon. the Minister of Public Works addressed to me a letter which I desire to read to the House and which is as follows:
Office of the Minister Of Public Works.
Ottawa, May 28, 1917. My dear Sir Robert:

Some time in the summer of nineteen sixteen, the present Government of Manitoba appointed a Commissioner, Mr. A. C. Galt, to make investigation and to report to them with regard; to the construction of the Manitoba Agricultural College. This work was undertaken and a very small proportion done while I was Minister of Public Works for that province. Mr. Galt has made two reports-one some time last January and the other two or three days ago. In these reports 'he has chosen to reflect on my conduct as such minister, and it is only as regards those portions of the reports in which he so reflects that I feel justified in drawing thel matter to your attention.

While making his investigation on the subjects covered by his first report, Mr. Galt telegraphed me to Ottawa on September 12 last, informing me of certain evidence which he evidently regarded as requiring answer on my part. I at once went to Winnipeg and appeared before him and gave full explanation of the subject covered by his telegram and answered all questions put to me. It was manifest to me then from Mr. Galt's demeanour and remarks that he purposed sparing no effort and rejecting no means, however unfair, of doing me all the injury in his power. I therefore, from that point forward, took little or no interest in the proceedings of his Commission, being absolutely certain not only that my own conduct in the premises had been straightforward and in the public interest, but that, though it would he a waste of time to make any attempt to Influence the purpose of Mr. Commissioner Galt, there would be no difficulty later in exposing and establishing before any fair and competent tribunal both the true facts of the case and the malice of this commissioner. I did, however, subsequently inform Mr. Galt that I was prepared, though in Ottawa, to answer any summons in the same way a* if it were served on me in Manitoba.	,
As regards the proceedings subsequent to the first report, and as regards the subjects covered by the second report, in respect to which Mr. Galt is pleased to reflect on my public conduct, you will he surprised to learn-I say this knowing that you are not acquainted with Mr. Galt-that I was never informed by the Commissioner, directly or indirectly, of any statements in evidence affecting me in the slightest degree, nor was I offered any opportunity whatever of making explanation or defence. It is quite true that no explanation or defence, however complete or however substantiated, would have affected in the least Mr. Galt's determination, hut this fact cannot be offered as an excuse on his part for abandoning and indeed prostituting the most elementary principle of British justice-that it is a fact, however, does, I think, fully establish the predetermination and malice of the Commissioner.
As soon as I was informed of the contents of each report, I made full and public denial of every allegation contained in them, affecting myself. This denial I now reaffirm.
I believe I am entitled to a full and fair investigation by a tribunal of high standing of all matters contained in these reports, reflecting in any way on my public conduct. Though I have not yet been able to obtain a copy of the evidence, I cannot believe that any evidence could have been given substantiating the reports so far as they allege breach of duty on my part. I ask that such a tribunal be appointed in order that it may be known whether there was such evidence, and if so, to make full and complete inquiry and report as to whether, if any such evidence was given, the same was true.
Yours sincerely,
R. Rogers.
To that letter I gave the following reply on the 30th day of May:
Ottawa, 30th May, 1917.
Dear Mr. Rogers,
I beg to acknowledge your letter of the 2Sth instant I 'have taken into consideration the action which you request with respect to the

reflections upon your conduct as a member of the Provincial Executive of Manitoba, which are set forth in the reports of Commissioner Galt. I shall bring your request to the attention of Council forthwith so that your representations and the course which should be taken with regard to the matter may be considered by all the members of the Government.
Yours faithfully.
The Honourable
Robert Rogers, M.P.,
Minister of Public Works,
Ottawa.
The subject was taken up and considered in council, with the result that it was referred to the Minister of Justice, who yesterday presented a report to council upon which an Order in Council has been passed and approved by His Excellency. I shall now read that Order in Council:
Certified copy of a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by His Excellency the Governor General on the 6th June, 1917.
The Committee of the Privy Council have had before them a Report dated 4th June, 1917, from the Minister of Justice, stating that the Honourable Mr. Justice Galt of Manitoba, who was appointed a Commissioner by the Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba on 15th July, 1916, to investigate and report upon certain matters of concern to the local Government, has, as the Minister of Justice is informed, in pursuance of his said Commission made two reports, the first dated 26th January last, and the second, dated 25th May, by which reports the Commissioner makes certain findings or observations reflecting upon the honour or integrity of the Honourable Robert Rogers, presently _ Minister of Public Works of Canada, in con-' nection with the said matters above referred to and his actions in regard thereto, at a time when he was Minister of Public Works of the said Province of Manitoba, and that Mr. Rogers avers that all such findings and observations and the said reports In so far as they in anywise affect him prejudicially are unjustified in fact and not upheld or established by the evidence or facts in proof before the Commissioner.
Mr. Rogers also complains of lack of notice, and that as to some of the findings in question he was not afforded an opportunity to give or present evidence before the Commissioner, and moreover he challenges the impartiality and intent of the Commissioner upon the matters under consideration so far as they affect Mr. Rogers. In these circumstances Mr. Rogers asks for a full and fair investigation by a tribunal of high standing of all matters contained in the aforesaid reports reflecting in any -way upon his public conduct.
The minister being of the opinion that the situation as thus presented invites further consideration recommends that the Honourable Sir Ezekiel McLeod, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New Brunswick, and the Honourable Louis Tellier, a retired Judge of the Superior Court of the Province of Quebec, be appointed Commissioners under Part 1 of the Inquiries Act, Revised Statutes of Canada, 1916, Chapter 104, for the purpose of reviewing and considering the evidence taken before the said Commissioner Galt in the execution of his commission aforesaid, and his said reports and findings thereon, and of reporting for the information of Your Excellency in Council whether, there was evidence before the said Commissioner Galt to sustain or support the findings of said Commissioner as set forth in his said reports in so far as they reflect upon or prejudicially affect the honour or integrity of Mr. Rogers or the honesty of his dealings or transactions, the said hereby appointed Commissioners to have power should they find that there is any such evidence, to make such further inquiry and take such further and additional evidence as may to them appear necessary for the purpose of enabling them to determine and report upon the truth or falsity of the evidence so tby them found, any further evidence so taken and the determination of said hereby named Commissioners thereon to be also reported; and that the said Honourable Sir Ezekiel McLeod and Honourable Louis Tellier as such Commissioners shall moreover have all the powers in the execution of their said Commission which are mentioned, enumerated or provided for by the said Part 1 of the Inquiries Act and the Act amending the same of 2 George V. Chapter 28, intituled "An Act to amend the Inquiries Act".
The Committee concur in the foregoing and submit the same for'approval.
Rodolphe Boudreau,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
There is nothing further to add except that the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) has requested of me that, pending the investigation, he shall be relieved of all administrative duties in connection with the Department of Public Works, and that the administration of the department shall be taken over by myself or by some other minister, and I have acceded to that request.
Right hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER: By your leave, Mr. Speaker, 1 think the correspondence and the Order in Council which has just been submitted to the House require some comments on my part. I would say that the letter addressed by the hon. the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) to the Prime Minister is absolutely derogatory to the honour of the bench of this country.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Wilfrid Laurier: The letter
refers to Mr. Justice Galt, not as Mr. Justice Galt but as "Mr. Galt." Mr. Justice Galt acted, not in his capacity as a judge, but he was selected-as the hon. gentlemen who have just been named in the Order in Council, Sir Ezekiel McLeod and Hon. Louis Tellier, have been selected-on account of his judicial capacity. It is to be remembered, Sir, and it cannot be forgotten on this occasion, that the complaint of the Minister of Public Works of unfairness by Mr. Justice Galt to him arose largely, if not altogether, and I would say altogether, from the insult which was poured upon the

head of Mr. Justice Galt by the Minister of Public Works. The Minister of Public Works was called upon to give evidence before the commissioner. He had the right to be summoned, and he appeared. And, Sir, in the public press and in his evidence to Mr. Justice Galt's face he called him a grafter.


Mr. BEST:: Hear, hear.


Wilfrid Laurier: For what
reason was he called a grafter? Because he accepted duties similar to those which have just been delegated to Sir Ezekiel McLeod and Hon. Louis Tellier, justices of the High Court. If Mr. Justice Galt was a grafter-which I resent, I do not know Mr. Justice Galt, I never met him in my life; he is a judge of the bench, that is all I know-but if he can be called a grafter for having accepted the duties which he discharged, Sir Ezekiel McLeod and Hon. Louis Tellier can also be called grafters equally; there is no difference. Now, Sir, the hon. Minister of Public Works asks that gentlemen of high standing shall be appointed to make a further inauiry. The tribunal which is toeing constituted by the Government to investigate this matter is of no higher or of no lower standing than the commission which was presided over by Mr. Justice Galt; it is exactly the same. I do not know Mr. Justice Galt, but I understand that he is a judge of integrity, in good standing in his profession, and that his honour has never before been impugned. Before he was appointed to the Bench he was not active in either political party. Under these circumstances, if any new tribunal is to try the Minister of Pulblio Works,' it should be a committee of this House. There are two methods of making public investigations, either by a committee of this House, the High Court of Parliament, or *by members of the Bench, who are selected because of their legal standing and because they are supposed, by the very character of their office, to be above reproach. If the report is to be condemned because the commission was presided over by a judge of the Supreme Court, the new inquiry should not toe carried out by a commission of the same kind.


Robert Laird Borden: I am not disposed to discuss the character or qualifications of Mr. Justice Galt on this or any other occasion, unless a necessity which I cannot now foresee should arise. As I understand it, the judges who are to perform this duty are not to accept fee or [Sii Wilfrid Laurier.]	_
honorarium for it. My right hon. friend challenges the action we have taken and challenges the reflections which have been made upon Mr. Justice Galt in the letter written to me from the Minister of Public Works. I should like to remind him that on a certain occasion one of his colleagues who sits beside him used infinitely stronger language, if my memory is correct, with regard to Mr. Justice Landry of the Supreme Court of New Brunswick, and he did so without any reproof from my right hon. friend. 'I am perfectly willing to contrast the action which we have taken in this matter with that which my right hon. friend took on that occasion. Findings had been made by a commission of which Mr. Justice Landry was a member. Those findings reflected seriously upon a member of my right hon. friend's Government. The matter was brought to the attention of Par-[DOT] liament, and it was urged toy a motion in this House that such a finding should not be disregarded. My right hon. friend ignored the whole matter and voted down the motion, the precise words of which I have not before me; no consideration to the finding was given toy him, and the then Minister of Public Works retained his position in the Government and continued to administer the affairs of his department. It seemed to me, when the matter was brought to my attention by the present Minister of Public Works, that such a course as was on that occasion pursued by* my right hon. friend could not be followed pr sanctioned with advantage to the public interest. I thought it my duty, therefore, to comply with the request made by the Minister of Public Works and to entrust the examination of this evidence and any further hearing that might be desired, to two members of the Judicial Bench, one cf whom is on the Bench at present and the other of whom has retired. Both are absolutely above reproach. I may add that the Minister of Public Works informs me that he is not acquainted with either of these two judges, and that, so far as he knows, he never met either one or the other of them.



PRIVILEGE.


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. ALBERT SEVIGNY (Minister of Inland Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege. I see in the morning papers a report which reads as follows:
Ottawa, June 5.-An extraordinary position of affairs was revealed in a return made this

evening In a volume of correspondence between the iSergeant-at-Arms of the House of Commons and Hon. Albert Sevigny, and between the Sergeant-at-Arms and the Justice Department, with regard to a quantity of valuable effects removed from the Speaker's chambers at the House of Commons early in 1916 by Hon. Mr. Sevigny during his tenure? of office as Speaker. It appeared that Hon. Mr. Sevigny had removed a number of handsome pictures and works of art
-which, by the way, is not true.
a Viotrola and a quantity of high priced records, with other ornaments and furniture and had them sent to Quebec.
Col Smith wrote Hon. Mr. Sevigny several times'apparently without getting any response. He then wrote a sharp letter to Hon. Mr. Sevigny, pointing out that he must know that these goods should be in the custody of himself as Sergeant-at-Arms, and that he was responsible for them. Yet in face of repeated requests Hon. Mr. Sevigny had continued to retain them, etc.
This article, published in the Montreal Gazette this morning, is absolutely false; there is nothing in the papers which were submitted to the. House yesterday to sustain those assertions. The facts are as follows. As everybody knows, the Speaker's Chambers were destroyed by fire last year when I was Speaker of the House of Commons-and, by the way, I may be permitted to say that my monetary losses as a result of the fire amounted to about $1,200. Last year when the House prorogued as there were no quarters for the Speaker, I asked the officers of the House if there would be any objection to sending to Quebec certain effects which were in Ottawa at the disposal of the Speaker of the House of Commons during the Tecess. No objection was raised at the time by any of the officers of the House, and, accordingly, instructions were given that certain effects be sent to Quebec. A list of those effects w as made by the Serjoait-at-Arms, and they were sent to Quebec by the Serjeant-at-Arms. On January 8 of this year, I was invited to join the Cabinet and the next day I had to go to Dorchester for my reelection. I was there until the end of January. When I came back I was sick for several days, and when I came to my office in Ottawa I was very busy with my departmental business. When I w.as asked for the first time by the Serjeant-at-Arms to .send back those effects, I told hi.m, in a letter of which a copy was submitted to the House yesterday, that I would send them as soon as I should be back in Quebec. I wrote a second letter to the Serjeant-at-Arms in which I repeated that. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that my intention never was to keep those effects and
that they .were returned to the Serjeant-at-Arms in perfect order.
ALLEGED COMPULSORY RETIREMENT OF CIVIL SERVANTS. [DOT]
On the Orders of the Day.


Mr. W. M. GERMAN:: I wish to call the attention of the Minister of Customs to an article which appears in .an Ottawa paper, as follows:
Windsor, June 5.-Information has been received here by local members of the internal revenue and other branches of the Civil Service to the effect that within a short time-a few weeks at most-the Government will announce a plan for compulsory retirement of all civil servants who have been in the service more than thirty-five years, their places to he filled with returned soldiers who are unfit by reason of wounds and illness from filling their ordinary vocations.
I wish to <ask the minister if there is anything in that report, or if such a plan is likely to be carried out?


Mr. REID:: There is nothing in it. I never heard of it before.



FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENT BETWEEN BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. Sir THOMAS WHITE (Minister of Finance), Bill No. 47, to facilitate certain financial arrangements between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and for other purposes, was read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Blain in the chair.
On the Preamble:
Sir THOMAS WHITE:: As I explained upon the introduction of this Bill to the House, its object is to enable the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to lend its credit to the Imperial Treasury by issuing collateral trust bonds payable in currency-


Wilfrid Laurier: In what currency?


William Thomas White: Canadian, United . States, or British, against outstanding securities of the company, payable as to principal and interest in sterling, which have been, ot which may be, acquired by the Imperial Government. Legislation is necessary because the Canadian Pacific Railway Company will do this to facilitate the financing by the Imperial Treasury and not for its own railway purposes. I am advised that the Canadian Pacific Railway .Company has statutory powers to issue

these new securities, if issued for railway purposes, but as the purpose is to facilitate the Imperial financing, it is necessary to obtain legislative authority to issue these collateral trust bonds, which are to be delivered to the Imperial Government in exchange for sterling securities which it has acquired or may acquire on the London market. The transaction is necessitated by reason of the exchange situation to which I have frequently referred in this House. The British Government has been acquiring sterling securities in London. Those sterling securities have in the past been used as collateral to loans which the Imperial Government has been making in New York for the purpose of supplying funds to meet its expenditures in the United States. Among other securities which have been or which will be acquired are the sterling securities of the Canadian Pacific Bailway Company, and of certain of the companies whose lines are leased by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, principally, I may say, the four per cent debenture stock of the Canadian Pacific. The position, therefore, is that the Imperial Government has acquired this stock and other securities. As these securities are payable in sterling, they are not available as collateral or for sale on this side of the Atlantic, and the Imperial treasury has requested the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to issue collateral trust bonds in exchange for these sterling debentures, the collateral trust bonds to be payable in currency so that they may be used for an issue on this side of the Atlantic, or as collateral for such an issue. I have already explained to the House that no such issue is an immediate prospect, and I have' stated further-and this has been brought to my knowledge-that although no such loan is in prospect, the Imperial Government has requested the Canadian Pacific Company to proceed with this legislation, in order that, should occasion arise, this power may be available.


Wilfrid Laurier: 
William Thomas White: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: That is one of the mysteries of financing that I do not understand.


William Thomas White: My right hon. friend is quite correct in stating that there is no higher form of security than the sterling security, but sterling securities cannot be sold to advantage on this side of the Atlantic.


Mr. MARCIL:: I understand that a few days after the. Canadian Pacific Railway Company made an announcement in regard to this matter at a meeting of the shareholders, it was stated that the arrangement had fallen through and that the British Government had made other arrangements.


William Thomas White: When the matter was first announced, it was the intention to proceed with a loan In New York for a large amount, I think, two or three hundred million dollars, but on account of the declaration of war by the United States against Germany, it was not deemed expedient to proceed. My hon. friend probably knows that the American Government is now issuing its securities for the purpose of financing Great Britain and the Allies. There is no intention of bringing on, in the near future, any issue of these securities, or any Imperial issue with these securities pledged as collateral. It may not be necessary to do so at all. My hon. friend is right in stating that that was adverted to at the meeting of the shareholders of the Canadian Pacific, but notwithstanding that, as no one can tell what the future will bring forth, and as the sum involved is large, it is deemed advisable that this power should be available in case it might be desired to exercise it.


Charles Marcil: I asked the question in order that the minister's explanation might be placed on Hansard.


Wilfrid Laurier: Might I recall 1jo my hon. friend that in times past and not far distant either I was taken to task very sharply by some hon. gentlemen whom I think I see now on the other side of the House, for stating that I preferred the Yankee dollar to the British shilling. Now that my hon. friend has shown by his free wheat measure that he prefers the Yankee dollar to the British shilling, I do not know what will happen, and I think I 'had better warn him not to go too fast or he may land himself in trouble.


William Thomas White: I am sorry that my right hon. friend, who is an old cam-

paigner and politician, not to say statesman, takes these matters so much to heart. Why should he advert to them in time of war?


Mr. PUGSLEY:: Would the word " currency " imply the right to issue in gold? Of course, this is a matter of internal arrangement by the company, and they are the best judges of what they desire.


William Thomas White: Currency includes gold. The currency of the Dominion, for instance, includes Canadian gold, British sovereigns, and American gold. Currency in the United States would include American gold as well as American note circulation.


William Pugsley: That is true, but the company would have the right to pay in paper money-if the word currency was used and not the word gold; I think my hon. friend will admit that. If these bonds were payable in currency of the Dominion of Canada, then the company would have the right to pay in paper currency, in which case the bond would not have the same value as if the payment was made in gold. But of course this is a matter of internal arrangement, and the company are the best judges.


[Stage Direction]
Preamble agreed to, and Bill reported.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Sir Thomas White (Minister of Finance) Bill No. 55, to amend the Penny Bank Act, was read a second time and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Blain in the Chair.
On section 1-withdrawals for investment in Government securities, and application of interest.
William Thomas White: This legislation
is to enable the Penny Banks to invest their funds in Dominion Government securities subject to the approval of the Minister of Finance. These banks are voluntary organizations whose object is to encourage savings by school children, and others of slender means. They are not banks under the Bank Act, and deposits by any one individual are limited to $300. At present under the Act relating to Penny Banks their funds must be deposited with the Post Office Savings Bank, and interest is allowed at the rate of 4 per cent per annum under a special arrangement with the Government. We have been requested to authorize the banks to invest in the Dominion War Loan issues, and as there seems to be no objection I have introduced this legislation. There is this safeguard, that any such investments are subject to the approval of the Minister of Finance, and of course the security is just as good as if the funds were invested in the Post Office Saving , Bank.


William Pugsley: The bonds are to be
deposited with the Government?


William Thomas White: Yes, that is a
safeguard that my hon. friend will find in the Bill.


Charles Marcil: How many of these banks are there in Canada?


William Thomas White: There are two,
the head office of the larger bank being in Toronto, with branches in thirty-four centres. The otheT bank is a smaller organization at Chicoutimi. The Penny Bank of Toronto has on deposit in the Post Office Savings Bank $370,OCO, and the Penny Bank of Chicoutimi $13,000.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Blain in the Chair.
Grant to the National Battlefields Commission, $52,100.
['The statement made by the Minister of Labour as to the information he was gathering with regard to cold storage warehouses was so diffuse and so voluminous that I was not able to gather what he was really doing, and I think we should thoroughly understand just what is being done before this item is passed.\nItem stands.\nOn motion of Hon. Mr. Reid the House adjourned at 11.05 p.m.\nThursday, June 7, 1917.']
Wilfrid Laurier: Has anything been done since last year in this matter? Is it proposed to add anything in the way of improvements?


William Thomas White: Not at present. The understanding is that the present works should be maintained, but that no new works shall be undertaken.
For maintenance of the National Battlefields Park, $46,200.


Wilfrid Laurier: How is this to be expended?


William Thomas White: I should have to get the report of the commission, in order to give my hon. friend full information. I am not able to speak from memory. We have provided the amount requested by the commissioners for maintenance, on the understanding that new works would not be undertaken, but that they would do their best to maintain the works at present existing. That does not mean that we should not complete the works, if it were found more convenient to do so, having regard to the financial situation.


Wilfrid Laurier: I have no
fault to find with the commission. It is a fine commission, and I am sure that every dollar will be spent economically, but I would like to let the item stand.
Item stands.


Mr. KYTE:: Has the Battlefields Commission jurisdiction over the national monuments? I understand there are certain places in Canada where historical events have occurred, which are taken charge of by the Government?	-


William Thomas White: This commission has not jurisdiction over that matter.


George William Kyte: What particular
4 p.m. body has jurisdiction?


William Thomas White: I do not think any particular body has jurisdiction.


George William Kyte: I saw a statement some time ago that certain portions of territory in the western part of Nova Scotia, for example the site of the original settlement of the-Acadians at Grand Pre, were to be taken over as a national park. Is that matter in contemplation by the Government?


William Thomas White: I have no official knowledge of any such action. I think the report is probably premature.
Grant In aid of Canadian general council of the Boy Scouts' Association, $5,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: How is that money expended?


William Thomas White: By the Association, which has for its objects and purposes the Boy Scout movement. We pay the amount to the Association.


Charles Marcil: Is the Association numerous?


William Thomas White: I think it is very large, and has grown a great deal. How large it is, I am not prepared to say.


Wilfrid Laurier: The grant is made to the Canadian general council of the Boy Scout Association. Is that a numerous body, and where is it located? Is it in Toronto, Montreal or Ottawa?


William Thomas White: I think that that item had better be allowed to stand. I apologize for not having information today. The Minister of Agriculture has just come in, and we will be glad to take up his estimates, and when we reach this item again I shall be able to explain it more fully.
Item stands.

Department of Agriculture-Patent record, $30,000.


Mr. TURRIFF:: Is this item for the
printing of those books which are distributed monthly?


William Thomas White: Yes.


John Gillanders Turriff: I think that it would be a good idea if the ministers would cut that item in two, and only print about one-tenth the number of books at present printed. They are scattered round broadcast, and I do not suppose that one person in a hundred who receives these books ever opens them. I have been getting them for about thirty years, and they are no good to me. Anybody who wants to get the information contained in the patent record can. get it on going to the Patent branch of the Department of Agriculutre. To my mind, it is one of the most useless bit's of expenditure undertaken by the Government.


Mr. BURRELL:: There may be something in what my hon. friend says. That idea has been advanced a good many times in the last twenty years or so, and on the other side there have been a good many arguments advanced why it should be printed, and why the circulation should be as large as it is. These books are sent, free of charge, to the members of the Senate and the House of Commons and the libraries. Sixty-six different libraries in England get them, ninety-four libraries in Canada, fifty-four in the United States. There is an exchange list of seventy-nine and a Government free list of thirty-one, and the British colonies and foreign colonies, fifty-seven, free, making altogether 381.


Charles Marcil: How many are printed?


Martin Burrell: Twelve hundred copies per month. This amount includes all the necessary cuts, drawings, etc.


John Gillanders Turriff: It seems to me that they are printed unreasonably often. Why could they not be printed quarterly or semiannually? It is not necessary, even for anybody who is interested in patent matters, that a list such as this should be printed every month. Twelve hundred copies a month, costing $30,000, means that we pay over $2 for each one of these books. I have been getting these books for thirteen years, and I have never had five cents of value out of them, because this is not in my line; I do not understand it; I am not interested. A great many members must be in the same position as I am. Sending it to libraries may be all right, but you might

cut the issue away down and it might he issued less frequently than monthly.


Martin Burrell: Do you suggest cutting out the copies to the members of the House and the Senate?


John Gillanders Turriff: I would move that the members be cut off and the members of the Government also.


Martin Burrell: We will bear that suggestion in mind.


George William Kyte: I think the suggestion is entitled to consideration. - It is very rarely that a member or a senator has occasion to refer to the list, and if he has occasion to refer to it he can get a copy.


Martin Burrell: The patent office is a profitable institution in the sense that last year the cash receipts amounted to $227,000, or $10,000 over those of any previous year; so that apart from the expense of the Patent Record and of the civil administration concerned with patents, there is still a very large amount credited to the Receiver General from the patent office. I shall be very glad to bear in mind what my hon. friend says about cutting down the issue of the Patent Record.


John Gillanders Turriff: We have been long
enough in the House to know what a minister means when he says he will bear something in mind. He gets his estimates through and he never takes any action. But in that my hon. friend is not any worse than his colleagues or his predecessors.


Wilfrid Laurier: That is hard upon ourselves.


John Gillanders Turriff: It may be hard upon ourselves, but it is a fact nevertheless.


Martin Burrell: I am not competent to say at the moment whether all members and senators should have it or not. When I tell my hon. friend that I will bear his suggestion in mind, what I mean is that I would like to inform myself, by consulting the Deputy Commissioner of Patents as to the precise character of the objections to the proposal and to ascertain whether there might be something to be said on the other side. My hon. friend would not expect me to say offhand what should be done and therefore I was not at all hypocritical in saying that I would bear his suggestion in mind.


John Gillanders Turriff: I imagine the deputy who gets an extra $1,000 on account of the patent branch would not like to see the expenditure cut down. I never knew a
deputy yet who was anxious to have the expenditure cut down. That depends on the minister. If it is going to be cut down my hon. friend will have to take hold with a strong hand and overrule his subordinates. This is one of the things in which economy might be practised without hurting anybody. Supposing we spend $15,000, instead of $30,000, issue these books once in three months and cut off a lot of the supply, the saving would be worth while.


Martin Burrell: I think there is a good deal in what my hon. friend says.. I would like, however, to feel satisfied that every one of my hon. friend's fellow members and senators took the same view. If that were the case, there would be no hesitation.


Mr. McKENZIE:: As one member who has been receiving this paper for a very long time, I can corroborate what my hon. friend (Mr. Turriff) has said. I have never regarded it as anything else than a bulky nuisance coming to the office and which had to be thrown away.
Experimental Farms-Maintenance of Central Farm, and establishment and maintaining of additional branch Stations, $850,000.


Martin Burrell: This is practically the same vote as last year.


John Gillanders Turriff: What is being done to find out how to handle the question of rust on wheat? Last year Canada lost about $100,000,000 and I understand that the average loss per annum in the United States is about $150,000,000. Last year was the first year in which we had a very general and severe loss of wheat from rust and it was only about the second time that we have had any serious infestation of rust in the West. I remember that ten or twelve years ago we had more or less rust but it was nothing like as severe as it was last year.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: In 1904.


John Gillanders Turriff: Yes. I understand that scientific men are finding out a good deal about it. I understand from one of the professors in Winnipeg that the rust spores can only be carried over from one year to another on a certain shrub, the barberry bush, and it appears that in the province of Manitoba there are only about 350 of these bushes. '	.


Martin Burrell: There are more than
that.


John Gillanders Turriff: That is my information, although it may not be correct. This professor also stated that it was possible that

some other plant or shrub than the barberry might carry over the spores from one season to another, but 60 far all the research that has been made has failed to discover any such bush. I understand also that the spores are so extremely light that, for instance in an absolutely still room with the doors and windows all closed and with no current of an air, a spore will take an hour to fall a distance of four feet with the result that they can be carried hundreds of miles by the wind. It has been noticed that in the two seasons in which we havie^suf-fered badly from rust in the western provinces it has been after we have had a great deal of south wind, which has brought the spores up from the more southern part of the continent. I know that the American Government is spending a large amount of money in the effort to find out some tvay to handle this plague, and probably in the end something will be discovered by which we will be able to control it. I remember when smut was with us a very serious menace in the West and the cause of a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars to the farmers. Now scientific men have discovered how to deal with smut, and the farmers are able to guard against it. I have no doubt that the same thing ivill occur with rust. It is such a very serious matter that I think the department would be justified in spending some money in the effort to guard against this disease.


Martin Burrell: I agree with everything my hon. friend has said in regard to rust, and the figures he has quoted of the losses caused by it are the same as the estimates we have had. As we considered it such a serious matter, we prepared some time ago for the erection of two field laboratories, one at Indian Head and one at Brandon, on our experimental farms. We were anxious to secure the very best man to take charge of this work, and I finally heard of Mr. W. P. Eraser, assistant professor of biology at Macdonald College, as being the most competent man on this continent in reference to diseases of this kind. I discussed the matter with Dr. Harrison, who was very loathe to lose Mr. Fraser, but I represented to him the importance of this investigation, and finally Dr. Harrison agreed, and Mr. Fraser entered our service at a fairly good' salary, and is now in charge of this branch of our work. I may say that when I applied to the American authorities in the effort to secure a first-class man, I was informed that I need not go outside of Canada as Mr. Fraser was the very best man on this con-

tinent. We have a number of very skilled men on fungus diseases in the department, as we have greatly enlarged this branch of our service during the past three or four years, but for this investigation we desired a man of pre-eminent ability, and I have every reason to believe that in Mr. Fraser we have secured such a man. I may say that we have printed 100,000 copies of a poster about two feet by three feet showing the disease in all its phases and giving the best methods of combatting it, so far as we know. This has been very generally distributed, and I hope my hon. friend has received a copy of it.


Charles Marcil: Where are the different stations to be located?


Martin Burrell: The vote always reads in this way. We allow a certain amount of leeway for the establishment of new stations. We are rather holding back in the matter since the war, with the expectation of strengthening and developing the work in existing stations and with the expectation also of the establishment of a considerable number of illustration stations. We have taken forty or fifty acres of the land of some progressive farmer in a certain district, and then, under our direction, he has carried out various methods of planting and handling his soil. I think that we supply seed to a certain extent. This has furnished an object lesson to all farmers in the district. I think, strictly speaking, it may be regarded as provincial work, but we took it up in 1914 owing to the drouth in Southern Alberta and Saskatchewan, because we had evidence there that a large number of the newer settlers had no scientific knowledge of the proper handling of the soil and the warding off of the danger of drouth. We have established something like thirty of these illustration stations. We have also made a start in Quebec, and have ten or twelve stations in that province, and one or two in the Maritime Provinces. We shall probably do a little more in that line this season. Whether we shall establish more experimental farms this year, I would not be prepared to say. We have a great number of places which are under the impression that they have been promised stations, or have had promises to look into the matter, and at the same time I think our work is sufficiently heavy, especially in view of the immediate necessities of the war, to cause a little halt in the establishment of experimental farms.


Charles Marcil: The minister is anxious to increase the production of the country.

Are the experimental stations in Quebec all over the province or in what localities are they?


Martin Burrell: The ones 'actually established are in Chateauguay, Drummond, Champlain, Bonaventure, Rimouski, Mis-sisquoi, Chicoutimi, Dor Chester, Vercheres and Labelle.


Mr. OLIVER:: There are two experimental stations in the Peace river country, one -at Vermilion and one at Beaverlo'dge, two very important and very widely separated sections of the country. In view of the fact that the great Peace river country is now in process of development and is attracting the attention of settlers more than any other part of the prairie west, it is in the public interest that such experimental and illustrative work as has been carried on in these two localities should be amplified and extended so as to establish as thoroughly and .as rapidly as possible to what extent the climatic conditions prevailing in that country are adapted to agricultural production. The great possibilities of advantage in the establishing of these experimental farms or stations are most evident where a new country is in process of occupation and where everything in the line of agriculture is necessarily experimental. The experiments carried on by the Government at the general expense may be the means of saving enormous losses to the settlers in their work of development and corresponding losses to the country, which .benefits by their successes and loses by their failures. The Vermilion settlement .and experimetal station is three or four hundred miles further north than the city of Edmonton. There has been an agricultural settlement at that point for many years, and a large area of that district is reputed to he suitable for settlement. Vermilion is in the neighbourhood of north latitude 57, and it goes without saying that farming there may be subject to conditions not generally understood in latitudes below 49. While there has been a sufficiently continued and successful production at Vermilion to demonstrate the agricultural possibilities of that country, in the expansion of settlement throughout the possible agricultural area^the difficulties to be encountered might be successfplly solved in advance at a farm or station more fully equipped than the present station at Vermilion. I am not at all belittling the importance of the station or the work that it has done. But a new condition has arisen
through the railroad reaching Peace River town- and the establishing of regular steamboat communication on the river; Vermilion is within the reach of the pioneer settler as it was not two years ago. This condition justifies the amplification of the good work that has been carried on at the Vermilion station and the fuller development of that work by the department.
Somewhat the same argument applied to the work on Grande Prairie at Beaverlodge. The large, progressive and successful settlement on the Grande Prairie has been established only five or six years, and during so short a period the conditions can not have been tried out by the pioneer settlers to the fullest extent. I suggest, therefore, that on the Grande Pirairie, in the Beaver-lodge locality or elsewhere, it is in the public interest that the department amplify and develop the work that they are now carrying on, with a view of discovering and of demonstrating the agricultural possibilities of the Grande Prairie country and the adjoining prairie areas of the Upper Peace river, as distinguished from the Vermilion settlement, which is on what we call the Lower Peace river. These widely separated districts differ both in latitude and in altitude, the Vermilion settlement being at a lower altitude and a higher latitude than the Grande Prairie settlement, which occupies a position comparatively near the foot of the mountains, and is at a fairly high altitude. I do not suggest that the station at Beaverlod'ge was unwisely placed, but it is desirable that the work be amplified because owing to the possibilities of the country, the large influx of settlement and the differences in latitude and altitude, the results at Vermilion are not conclusive in regard to Grande Prairie, nor is the work at Grande Prairie conclusive in regard to Vermilion. The two sets of experiments are necessary in order to give the full development that is desirable to that great Peace river country.


Martin Burrell: I am not disputing at all the force of a great deal of what my hon. friend says; in fact, I cordially agree with what he says. What he says in regard, for instance, to the district he has been touching on is practically equally true of all our north country from Quebec right through to British Columbia.


Frank Oliver: No.
Mr. BURRELL. It is true in certain portions. There is a great deal of immigration, for instance, into British Columbia.


Frank Oliver: The returns of the Interior Department, which are very conclusive, state that there is no comparison between the quantity of settlement going into the Peace river country and that going into any other equal area in the North country.


Martin Burrell: 
George William Kyte: Who is in charge of that department?


Martin Burrell: Some years ago the
Botanical and Entomological branches were simply divisions of the Experimental Farm system, but the entomological work of this country began to develop so much and there were so many important problems that were not directly associated' with the Experimental Farm work that we came to the conclusion we had better establish a separate Entomological Branch, and Dr. Hewitt, who was at the head of the division when it was in the Experimental Farm system, was made its head. He has capable officers under him in almost every province studying out the different problems, establishing field laboratories and working out the histories, not only of injurious pests, but of friendly insects that keep down the predacious ones. For instance, we get from some part of the country reports of some new pest that becomes established which we could not study on the farm and the combatting of which is

of vital interest to farmers over a large section. My hon. friend probably knows about that moth which is now in Nova Scotia and which has cost the eastern United States $6,000,000 within the last twenty or thirty years.


George William Kyte: Has the department any report as to the progress made in fighting the ravages of the brown-tail moth in Nova Scotia?


Martin Burrell: We have pretty lull reports, and I think on the whole we have been able to keep a fairly satisfactory check on it. This is a work of enormous importance and of very great value. We are endeavouring to combat the ravages of this moth in two or three different ways. We are keeping a staff of men travelling all the time through the orchards and fields of the country, destroying its nests and eggs and in two or three different laboratories we are breeding insects which prey on the brown-tail moth both in the moth form and in the larvae form.


Mr. ROSS:: What is the line of cleavage between items 44 and 45? What has been done in the county of Middlesex in regard to this branch? Who is the expert and what has he been doing?


Martin Burrell: The difference between items 44 and 45 is that item 44, the Branch of Entomology, deals with all general questions of insect pests and insect life injurious or beneficial to the farmer, and item 45 deals with those phases of the work which come under the operation of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act. Under that Act, we are dealing with the brown-tail moth, for instance, and with various forms of entomological and botanical work. After practically making it impossible in Europe to grow white pine, this disease of white pine blister rust has been imported into this country and is threatening the existence of our white pine, which is worth about $200,000,000. We are beginning to do a great deal of valuable experimental work to endeavour to combat the work of that disease; that is done under the Destructive Insect and Pest Act. My hon. friend probably alludes to the fact that we established in 1913 one of our field laboratories at Strathroy for the special study of all insects injurious to plant life. We are carrying on work there that will be of benefit to the whole district.


James Hamilton Ross: What ha3 the expert there accomplished in connection with that work?


Martin Burrell: When my Estimates are up again, I shall, I hope, be able to give that information.


James Hamilton Ross: What is the expert devoting his attention to in particular?


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Reverting again to the question of rust, which comes more properly under this head, although the blame is laid on the barberry bush, the fact remains that that bush is with us all the time, but that rust comes only once in ten or twelve years. Can the Government, through their Director of Experimental Farms, or otherwise, furnish us with any information as to what effect the rust, which was so severe last year, will have on this year's crop? Will this rust remain in the soil causing any trouble, and what will be the effect of sowing seed that has been rusted? Those are questions that the farmers in our country are asking to-day.


Martin Burrell: Although I am not
thoroughly familiar with this particular fungus, I understand that the rust is not transmitted through the seed. In a lot of these obscure fungus diseases the spores may be lying dormant in the seed, only waiting for favourable climatic conditions to develop. Last year conditions in Manitoba were extremely favourable to the development of this fungus. It is quite true that the barberries that harbour that particular rust are rather a source of danger. Some years ago the Department of Agriculture in Ontario, recognizing the danger, passed legislation for the destruction of all barberries. But the barberry bush, not only the purple kind but others, is a highly ornamental plant, and so many protests were made that the Government made the law operative only with the good will of the municipalities; that is, if .a certain number of people in a municipality wanted the bushes destroyed the law was enforced. The consequence was that the law became a dead letter. In the West conditions are a little different, because there are comparatively few barberries, although I imagine in cities like Brandon, Winnipeg and Moosejaw both forms of the barberry would be hardy enough to live. They are highly ornamental, and a man with a beautiful hedge of them would be sorry to see them destroyed. So far we have hesitated taking any such action, although that may later on be desirable. We are having Mr. Fraser inquire into this question, and if we come to the conclusion that it is in the interests of the farmers to eliminate the barberry entirely from the western country, we shall
have no hesitation in recommending such action.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: What about the rust lying dormant for ten or twelve years?


Martin Burrell: Like all other forms
of disease there might be a certain percentage of rust there all the time, but climatic conditions might be such that it would not develop until the twelfth year.


Mr. BRADBURY:: Could nothing be
used in the ground to kill the rust?


Martin Burrell: There is a great deal of obscurity about this disease. It may be entirely dormant for several years, only to break out when conditions are favourable.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: In 1904, when the rust was not nearly so severe, the next year's crop was hardly affected at all. Has the minister been able to find out whether the failure in the wheat crop last year was entirely due to rust? I do not profess to have any scientific knowledge on this question, but I am strongly of the opinion, and it is also the impression of the farmers in my district, that rust was not the only cause of' last year's failure. We had a very great deal of snow, and a very late spring. We could not get on the ground to sow until unusually late in the year. I think the season had never been s'o late before. Seed that should have been sown on the 1st of May was not sown until the 1st of June. Then came splendid growing weather, plenty of rain and moisture, and lots of warm weather, and the grain grew very quickly. The wheat had never looked better, and every one thought it would run from 40 to 45 bushels to the acre. I never saw longer heads, but when they were shelled only three or four shrivelled kernels would come out. The impression was that the grain grew very quickly, but had very little root. Furthermore, we did not have very many hot winds last year, as we had in other years. Our people do not believe the failure was due entirely to rust, but that there was some other blight on the crop.


Martin Burrell: My information is that the failure was almost entirely due to rust, and that there was very little blight indeed. Wheat at certain stages of its growth is more immune than at other times from a violent attack of rust, but if the development of the rust fungus happens to coincide with a particular period in the growth of the wheat the grain may be damaged very seriously. My information at present is that last year's failure was due to rust, but I

hope, before another year, to have further information on this fungus.


Mr. OEAHAM:: One of the troubles' in
Ontario, and I suppose in other provinces, is the weed pest; I refer particularly to mustard and daisies. I think there is enough land in Ontario covered with these weeds tp supply wheat for the people of all the province. So long as I can remember, the Ontario Government has been experimenting with methods for killing weeds. When the farmers' organizations held their meetings regularly I attended them all, and I have been told time and again that a certain solution had been discovered which, if applied at a certain time of the year and in a certain way, would kill mustard. But next year the mustard w.ould come up just as thick as ever on the next farm, if not on the one where the solution had been used. Has anybody really jdiscovered a. death blow to these pests? We are talking about increased production these days, and if some way could be discovered of eradicating these weeds, I think on the land thus cleared in Ontario we could grow enough wheat to feed all the people of our province. Surely if the Federal and Provincial Departments of Agriculture took up this question, some way could be found of killing these pests so that they would stay killed with proper care. I am afraid the Ontario Government has not been successful in this direction, although I am told that in some cases their efforts have met with success. But wherever you go in the country to-day you can see these weeds in abundance. Has the Federal Department of Agriculture taken any action along this line, and if so, are their efforts likely to meet with success?


Martin Burrell: My hon. friend has not, like myself, been engaged in farm work for "a great many years. The weed problem is a very old one, and if my hon. friend thinks we can develop a specific for killing all weeds he is gping to be very much mistaken. It all depends on the personal equa- -tion. A good farmer who knows how to handle his land by rotation of crops, and keeps it in go.od shape, is not going to be very much troubled with weeds. When we first bought the Experimental Farm it was absolutely infested with every kind of weed known to the province.


George Perry Graham: How is it now?


Martin Burrell: Pretty good. I have
been in districts in my hon. friend's province and found conditions different. I can

go into one district and find a farm seeded down with bad weeds, and I can go to another district, where the farmer kept his farm in good shape with a rotation of crops, and I will find the farm perfectly clear of weeds. It is the personal equation and the knowledge of how to handle crops that counts.


George Perry Graham: Is there any solution
which, if applied every season, would kill wild mustard and daisy?


Martin Burrell: No.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: What about 5 pm. dandelions?


George Perry Graham: They are very bad; they are in the category with daisies; they spread themselves out and kill everything in sight. My hon. friend says it is the personal equation that counts, and of course that is the big factor in everything. Canada is not so infested with the Canadian thistle as with other weeds. They have been experimenting in the provinces with a solution which they say, if applied, will kill these weeds, hut the weeds are still growing. It strikes me that, as a result of our scientific investigation, there should be something found that would kill these weeds. The spraying of fruit trees, done regularly, kills the insects, and consequently the development and the production of fruit is greatly assisted. Is there not something which could be used against the other pests in the same manner? If the Agricultural Department could devise something really effective, they would be doing more fo/r development and production than they have' yet accomplished.


Martin Burrell: We know that insects on fruit trees can be killed by spraying, but there you are treating animal life which is existing on vegetable life. I do not think the spraying of weeds has been found to be very satisfactory, and I understand they are largely giving it up, because in that case you are dealing with a more persistent and hardier type of vegetable growth than cultivated plants. The weeds have survived through hundreds of years, and it is a case of the survival of the fittest. The mustard seed will retain its germinating powers in the ground longer than any other seed known. There is nothing on earth to kill the mustard and daisy except a systematic course of good farming, rotation of crops, and breaking up of the ground. It is a question of labour and intelligence to clean out the weeds, and I do not think you can

manufacture any specific that will do that work.


Charles Marcil: I have heard farmers say that placing manure on the land makes matters worse.


Martin Burrell: Yes, if it is not handled properly; the manure may be full of weeds of the worst kind.


Charles Marcil: Could the minister give me the name of the farmer in Bonaventure who tried the experiment last year?


Martin Burrell: E. M. Legallis.


Charles Marcil: And the results were satisfactory?


Martin Burrell: It is only the first year, and it would be hard to say. I should like to say a word to the hon. gentleman from Richmond (Mr. Kyte) who asked me about the brown-tail moth, because it is just as well to have one or two facts on record. The work is being done from Fredericton where we have our station, We are doing scouting work in connection with the brown tail moth all through New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, and, in spite of the spread of the moth from the United States to these provinces, we think we have it well under control. In New Brunswick we have men employed all winter. Infestation exists in the counties of Carleton, York, Sunbury, Queens, Kings, and Charlotte. In Nova Scotia five counties: Hants, Kings, Annapolis, Digby, Yarmouth and Shelburne, are all more or less infested, and the southern part of Quebec is being scouted for the brown tail moth, though no infestation has been found. Through the courtesy of the United States Department of Agriculture who have been importing parasites of the gipsy and brown tail moth from Europe and Asia, and we have continued the breeding of parasites of one of the predaceous beetles. We have colonies of these insects established in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec. Since the work began four years ago, we have reared, collected and imported into Canada over 100,000 insect enemies of the brown tail and gipsy moth. The gipsy moth has not yet reached Canada. It is forty or fifty miles south of the line, but by importing and breeding these parasites which live on the gipsy moth, we hope to have a valuable ally in preventing it being established in the country at all.


George William Kyte: How is the scout system
carried on?


Martin Burrell: We have been co-operating with the provinces. The provinces have given a certain amount of men and we have given a certain amount of men. Year after year we have had men who have been very active and energetic doing this work, and we thought it better to continue the same men, in preference to having new men, who would have to be taught each year.


Mr. KNOWLES:: What has been done to protect against rust in the West? In a word, has the minister made any progress in the way of giving out information, so that farmers may get rid of the rust in their wheat?


Martin Burrell: As a matter of fact, we have only started to work. We have established two laboratories, one at Brandon and one at Indian Head, and engaged the services of the very best man on the continent, Mr. W. P. Fraser, formerly of Macdonald College, has gone to take charge of that work and carry on the investigation. He will work out every phase of the life history of the. rust, and the best means to combat its ravages. We have also issued about a hundred thousand copies of a poster which gives an absolutely life-like illustration of the rust in all its forms, with directions and suggestions so far as we are familiar with the matter at the present time. Our actual investigation work has not gone very far, because Mr. Fraser .only went out there lately. We hope to have a good deal of valuable work done in the course of a year.


William Erskine Knowles: Could you make any
recommendation as to one class of wheat seed less liable to be attacked by rust than another?


Martin Burrell: I have been informed that they have been giving a good deal of attention to that in the States, but, so far, they have not been able to come to any conclusion as to one particular variety more free from it than another.


William Erskine Knowles: Was it not the case that last year Marquis wheat was freer in the ratio of one to ten from rust than Red Fife?


Martin Burrell: No, not any freer than the other.


William Erskine Knowles: Oh, yes.


Martin Burrell: From rust?


William Erskine Knowles: From rust. I would say that there would he ten fields of Red Fife rusted to one of Marquis last year.


Martin Burrell: It may be possible that the reason is, as I explained to my hon. friend from Souris (Mr. Sehaffner), that rust will attack wheat at a particular stage of its growth more especially if the rust fungus is also at the proper stage. These two conditions being present, the attack is very much more vigorous. The Marquis wheat may develop at a different time in a particular district and the rust may develop later and in this way the wheat might escape attack. But, speaking generally, through the western country there has not been this difference which my hon. friend suggests.


William Erskine Knowles: It does not necessarily follow that Marquis comes in the dangerous season as it is earlier than Red Fife.


Martin Burrell: That is probably true but any grain that is sown earlier and that develops earlier will probably have a greater tendency to escape owing to the greater vigour of the plant.


William Erskine Knowles: If the department has knowledge that Red Fife is more likely to come in the danger zone in regard to time why not advise the farmers of that?


Martin Burrell: Everything that is known to the experimental stations has been communicated to the farmers in the circular to which I have referred.


William Erskine Knowles: When I asked the minister he stated that there had been no information given to the. people as to the difference between one kind of wheat and the other.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Was there any difference between Red Fife and Marquis in regard to liability to attack from rust?


William Erskine Knowles: The difference was about ten to one in favour of Marquis.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: In our country I do not think there was any difference between Red Fife and Marquis.


George William Kyte: Are the wheat growers in eastern Canada troubled with rust to the same extent as the western wheat growers are?


Martin Burrell: Very seldom.


George William Kyte: More wheat is being grown in eastern Nova Scotia and Cape Breton than ever before. If there is any way to guard against the attack of rust it would be well to give warning to the wheat growers and any information which the department may have should be communicated to them

with the view of affording protection against that particular pest.


Martin Burrell: Wheat in the eastern provinces is very seldom attacked. There may be some climatic conditions under which it may occur. Any information we get in the West that is of value to the East will be distributed.


William Erskine Knowles: Are not the local experimental farms in Alberta going into this question very fully? There is one at Carlsholme, and there are local branches at other points. Are they not carrying on investigations, and if so, does not this department collaborate with them?


Martin Burrell: I cannot tell my hon. friend to what extent they are making a special study of this particular rust. We have had some little correspondence with them, but I understand they are practically leaving this special work to us. We have the very best man who can be got on the continent in Mr. Fraser, of Macdonald College. He is acknowledged in the United States to be the best man on this particular class of disease, and we are willing that he should give his whole 'time to the study of this rust.


William Erskine Knowles: Apart from this important gentleman who is giving his time to the study of the rust question, who is the chief botanist?


Martin Burrell: That is under the Director of Experimental Farms.


William Erskine Knowles: What are the duties of the chief botanist? What is his name? I have forgotten his name; he is a German.


Martin Burrell: There is no chief botanist at the present time. The Director of the Experimental Farms is acting as chief botanist.


William Erskine Knowles: There is a doctor something-I know the gentleman, but I forget his name.


Martin Burrell: I suppose my hon. friend is alluding to Mr. Gussow, who was placed in the department by Mr. Fisher about eight years ago.


William Erskine Knowles: It is of no importance when he was placed in the department. I was not alluding to who appeinted him, and I do not care.


Martin Burrell: He is not the chief botanist.


William Erskine Knowles: What is his office?


Martin Burrell: He is acting in the department, but not in the responsible position of chief botanist.


William Erskine Knowles: What is his position?


Martin Burrell: He is carrying on
laboratory work in the laboratory at the Central Experimental Farm.


Charles Marcil: What is the increased acreage under cultivation in the West this year?


Martin Burrell: Our information is that there is about eight or ten per cent less wheat under crop throughout the West this year, but that is more than made up by the increased acreage of barley and oats. In Southern Alberta, I understand, there is a little more wheat than last year. The increased acreage throughout Canada will be seven or eight per cent.


Frank Oliver: There is another variety of wheat I have heard spoken of as being exceptionally early-Prelude. Is any experimentation going on in connection with that wheat with a view of finding out whether it would escape rust or not?


Martin Burrell: I do not know that we can say anything as to its exemption from rust. We are carrying on some work in regard to Prelude, and the director tells me that we are carrying on a lot of work in our northern stations. The wheat that my hon. friend speaks of is very much earlier than Marquis. It gives very good results at Fort Vermilion, in'the Peace River country.


Mr. COPP:: I would like to revert for a moment to item 43, as I was not in the House when it was taken up. I see by the Auditor General's Report that at the farm at Fredericton, which is the only experimental farm in my province, the expenditure for the year ended March 31, 1916, was $42,618.87. I would like to have some information with regard to the crops under cultivation, the yield per acre, and the position and condition of that farm at the present time.


Martin Burrell: I am afraid I cannot give my hon. friend that information in detail, because all these reports are in process of compilation now as to the exact acreage, character of the crops that are grown, and the experiments that have been carried on. I may say though that about 300 acres are under crop now.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Something like $1,966 was received from the sale of stock in the year
131 i
1915-16. That seems to he the only revenue from that farm. With an expenditure of $42,000 on a farm that has been established for some years, we might expect some considerable return to help meet the cost of maintenance. The general expenditure on these farms should be repaid to a certain extent, and quite a large extent, by the proceeds of what is sold.


Martin Burrell: My hon. friend will find a full statement of the returns from all the farms at page A-91 of the Auditor General's Report. My hon. friend's argument is often made in connection with experimental farm work in all countries, and at first sight it seems reasonable, but it is based on an entire misconception of the whole nature of the work of. experimental farms. What my hon. friend says would be absolutely true of a demonstration or model farm, but no experimental farm on earth ever should pay; if it did pay it would not be an experimental farm. That is a safe proposition. In order to have a farm pay by the selling of animals and crops it would be necessary to devote all of the acreage and all of the labour to the production of articles for sale, but an experimental farm is worth nothing unless it can do what an individual cannot do, owing to the great expense, that is to make thousands of experiments of all kinds to eliminate those that have been shown to be useless after a number of years. But if one experiment is successful it will justify the experiments carried on for many years. Let me take a familiar illustration, that of the Marquis wheat, referred to by the hon. member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles). Untold thousands of dollars were spent by the late Government and the preceding Government in the effort to produce a wheat that would be an improvement on the Red Fife. Thousands of experiments were made with little plots of ground at the farm here, crossing different varieties, and thousands of these were absolutely useless in so far as the value of the resulting variety is con-cemed. But by crossing a Himalayan wheat with the old Red Fife, out of a great many hybrids produced, one was so promising that it was replanted and tried next year at all the stations. After a few years the type became so fixed and its advantages so apparent that it was given a name, Marquis, and put into general use, its great advantage being that it ripened ten days earlier than the old Red Fife. That quality has made it of incalc alable value; I venture to say that the originating of that variety has paid many times over

for all the cost of all the experimental farms since the first establishment of a farm in 1887. There have been thousands of experiments in grains that were not of such great value. What is true of grain is true of cattle and plants and all kinds of fruit. So I repeat that no experimental farm can ever pay or should ever be expected to pay, and that the return from the sale of crops is a bagatelle, and must be, in comparison with the cost of administration.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My hon. friend seemed to
take it for granted that I was arguing against experimental farms.


Martin Burrell: No, hut I thought you laid undue stress on that feathre.


Mr. OOPP:: I did not intend to do that. Would the minister give us some information as to the manner in which the results .of the work at the farms are disseminated .among the farmers?


Martin Burrell: That information is distributed by bulletins; circulars and reports, and successful results at one farm are incorporated in further research work at all the farms. Then our men from each farm visit the other farms and bring back information to those in their district. That is in addition to the visiting of the farms by farmers to see what is being done.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I understand that the farmers get no information from these experimental farms.


Martin Burrell: I am informed that several thousand people from different parts of the province visited the Experimental farm at Fredericton last year.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I think my hon. friend has been misinformed. A farmer's picnic is held there occasionally, which is attended by about a score of people. The Experimental Farm is, no doubt, doing splendid work in the way of getting information for those who are running the farm and for those who live nearby, but complaint is made that the information is not spread among the farmers throughout the province as it should be.


Martin Burrell: We have the names of a good many thousand New Brunswick farmers on our mailing list. The farm at Fredericton is comparatively new, and there has not been time to develop the experimental work which may be expected within the next- five or six years. We shall gladly add to our list any names that are sent in; my hon. friend is right in saying that the " TMr. Burrell.!
people should have any information that is of value to them.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I would suggest that my hon. friend get a list of the members of agricultural societies throughout the province and use that as an addition to his mailing list.


Martin Burrell: We have already done that.


William Erskine Knowles: We have on the prairie a very destructive weed known as wild oats. Does the department issue bulletins containing plain talk to plain men as to how to get rid of that weed? The only method that I know of is too expensive for the average farmer.


Martin Burrell: As far as I know, we have no special bulletin dealing with that particular weed. A very excellent book, however, was issued many years ago on the subject of weeds, of which a larger edition is now available. This book probably deals with all destructive and injurious weeds, and sets forth the best methods of treatment.


William Erskine Knowles: Will the minister, the next time he comes with his estimates, bring with him such a publication or circular, or an extract therefrom, dealing with wild oats? It is absolutely impossible to get rid of this weed by the ordinary summer fallowing.


Martin Burrell: I will bring a copy tonight.


William Pugsley: Can the minister give
us any information as to what success attended the establishment of the parcel post system in the way of encouraging the shipment of agricultural products? In the United States, poultry, butter and many other farm products are regularly carried by mail, the United States Department of Agriculture taking a great interest in the matter. I believe that in many cities in the United States cold storage departments have been established in the post offices to facilitate the proper handling of agricultural products of a perishable nature.


Martin Burrell: I know that the development of the parcel post system is expected to enable people to ship various products of the kind mentioned by my hon. friend. I think, however, that my hon. friend would secure fuller information by bringing, the matter up when the Post Office Estimates are under consideration. I could not tell my hon. friend off-hand to what extent the parcel post has been made

use of in the carrying of agricultural products.


William Pugsley: The Post Office Department is not specially inte." sted in the distribution of agricultural pf, kiefs, but the Department of Sericulture	1 to take
a special intere i in that work, and I am surprised that my hon. friend cannot give us the information. I should think that he would be deeply interested in ascertaining what benefit the establishing of the parcel post system has been in the way of encouraging agricultural production in Canada. When the parcel post system was authorized by Parliament it was anticipated that a great benefit to the farming community would result, and that the consumer and the producer would he brought closer together. Unfortunately, the Postmaster General is engaged with matters connected with recruiting and is not here to give us the information. Can the hon. minister not tell us whether the farmers are availing themselves of the parcel post for the shipment of their products? Does not the minister think he should give us this information, which, I am sure, would be received by every one with great interest.


Mr.   B DRRELL@: I am most happy to
convey to the House any information that I can secure, but I frankly confess I do not know to what extent farmers throughout the country have availed themselves of the parcel post system for the shipment of their product's. After all, many of these matters have been dealt with by the different provincial legislatures, and until recently absolutely nothing was done in the Department of Agriculture in regard to marketing. It is only within the last two or three years that we have begun to pay any attention to the larger marketing possibilities such as livestock, and we have created a market for that purpose. During the regime of my hon. friend no attention was paid to such matters and he cannot expect me already to have such a mass of information that I can give in detail what every market gardener or farmer throughout the country is doing.


William Pugsley: I do not expect the minister tp give the House information as to what all the farmers throughout the country are doing, neither do I expect that the country will accept as a good answer to the question as to what this Government is doing, the statement that the old Government neglected its duties tp the farmers.


Martin Burrell: I am simply pointing
that out.


William Pugsley: This country is advancing and we expect a progressive Government to do its full duty, even although the former Government was not just as progressive as it might have been. I do not know whether it was or not, but it did the best it could. Yve are, however, getting new ideas these days, and we have to-day an example in the neighbouring republic of the wonderful development which has taken place in connection with the parcel post system. Why should that not take place in this country? It is a matter of great surprise to me that the minister should say:	I have had this important
work going ,on for only two or three years, and I am not able to tell the House and the country what are the results that have flowed from it. The minister says that if he can get the information, he will do so. That is very laudable. When will the minister give us the information?
iMr. BURRELL: My hon. friend, knows perfectly well that he cannot pin me down to giving an exact date. I am very sprry that my hon. friend is so deeply pained over this matter. I can only tell him what I told him before, that I will have my officials look into the matter, and whatever we can do in the way of getting information or assisting in .this matter will he very gladly done. Unfortunately, in view of all the nice things my hon. friend has said, this Government is not perfect. Rome was not built in a day,


William Pugsley: If there is in the world one thing in regard .to which I can agree \ :th my hon. friend, it is that this Govern-n, nt is not perfect. That statement will meet with full approval .throughout the country. Even if this Government is not perfect, will the minister promise, that if we do not detain him to-night, before this session is over, he will place before Parliament a statement made by himself in conjunction with the Postmaster General or the acting Postmaster General of what has been the results of the inauguration of the parcel post system in the way of bringing about and encouraging that close intimacy of contact between the farmer as the producer and the city-man as the consumer that will enable the. one to get a more ready market for perishable products and the other to receive those products upon reasonable and fair terms? As I have said, the Department of Agriculture in the United States has taken charge of the matter there in conjunction with the Post Office Depart-


Martin Burrell: 
William Pugsley: With all deference to the gentleman to whom my hon. friend from West Peterborough refers, I do not see how that should be. If it be the case, of course, we ought to know it, because that was one of the great advantages held out to the people of this country in connection with the expenditure that would necessarily be incurred in establishing the parcel post system. I would not for a moment think of doing any injustice to the minister.
If anybody ventures to ask the minister a question, or to criticise him, he thinks some injustice is being done. Why, we are here for the very purpose of criticising matters in respect of which we think objection should be made. I am quite disposed to recognize all that the department has done, but I think that very much more might be done along the lines which have been suggested.	-


Mr. LBMIEUX:: As I may foe said to foe the father of rural mail delivery in Canada,
I might, perhaps, say that when it was introduced in this country, in 1908, we followed the example of the United States Post Office Department, and if my hon. friend from Peterborough will read their reports as to the object and results of the parcel post and rural mail delivery he will find that the service was established in the United States on a cheap popular basis, primarily for the benefit of the farmers. The Hon. Mr. Wilson, who was formerly Minister of Agriculture in the United States, was in office at that time and he published a report on parcel post and rural mail which I commend to my hon. friend, and in which he states that by the establishment of rural mail delivery the farmer has been brought nearer to the large centres, and that real parcel post, not the sham we have in this country, will solve the problem of distribution of farm products. During my tenure of office as Postmaster General parcel post was not on the raw basis which has since Obtained in this country; it was then only in the experimental stage.
I do not begrudge the extension of the service that has taken place, although I am afraid it has increased the expenditure of the department to a very great extent. I do not begrudge it, however, because it is in the interest of the farmers that they should be brought nearer to the urban centres and should haye the advantage of getting the newspapers and agricultural papers and the many bulletins on farm work which are distributed amongst the farmers here, I suppose, just as is done in the United States.


Air. BURNHAM:: What about the daily market reports?


Rodolphe Lemieux: The market reports are published in the daily papers, in just the same way as fishing intelligence is sent all over the country. Although the expenditure on rural mail delivery has increased to a remarkable extent, I am in favour of that channel through which to reach the farmers as I believe it is in their interests. Mr. Wilson used that channel in the United States, and I think he was the propelling influence in establishing rural mail and cheap parcel post in that country.
We all remember the discussion which took place in this House some years ago in regard to parcel post. I then ventured to predict that the tentative attempt made by the then Postmaster General, Hon. Mr. Pelletier, would be absolutely futile, and so it has proved. Although several officers
have been appointed in the several cities of the Dominion to look after parcel post, parcel post as they have it in the United States really does not exist in this country. My hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture has always been courteous with members of this House, and has always been ready to take into consideration any suggestion a member might make in the interests of the farmer, and I think this is a question which he ought to tackle with the Post Office Department and with the Government generally. Give the farmers of this country cheap parcel post, and you will have practically solved the problem of distribution.


John Hampden Burnham: Where parcel post for eggs and other perishable produce fell down was with the consignee. Who is going to guarantee payment by the consignee?


Rodolphe Lemieux: If my hon. friend will read the reports of the United States Post Office Department, if not the last one the one immediately preceding, he will see that the system has worked very satisfactorily there, and is earning large profits for the Post Office Department.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock, Mr. Blain in the Chair.
For the development of the dairying industries and the improvement in transportation, sale and trade in food and other agricultural products, $155,000.


Martin Burrell: I promised the hon.
member for Middlesex (Mr. Ross) to refer to the work being carried on at Strathroy, and I shall put the information on Hansard. The statement of the work is as follows :
Entomological Laboratory at Strathroy, Ont.
The chief work carried on at this laboratory is a thorough study of white grubs and their control. These insects feed on the roots of grasses, destroying permanent pasture, corn, etc., and are also very destructive to potatoes. Strathroy was selected prime ly on account of the large acreages of corn and potatoes grown in that region. This investigation on white grubs is being carried on in co-operation with the Bureau of Entomology of the United States Department of Agriculture with a view to covering the whole area in which damage from white grubs occurs, thereby obtaining the fullest possible information. In Canada we are investigating these insects at Ottawa, Strathroy, Ont., and Treesbank, Man. Alreauy facts have been secured which enable us to advise farmers as to the best rotations to use and cultural operations to avoid injury from white grubs in districts where they occur. The


George Perry Graham: Have you any record as to whether the production of cheese this year is low or high as compared with last year?


Martin Burrell: It is very similar. There was an enormous production last year on account of the Very favourable conditions [DOT] for our dairying, and at the present time conditions are just 'as favourable. There are certain difficulties in regard to labour, but we are looking forward to a very big production.
Towards the encouragement of cold storage warehouses for the better preservation and handling of perishable food products, $50,000.


George Perry Graham: I observe a decrease in the vote, which would seem to indicate that not as many may ,ake advantage of tihe aid as last year.


Martin Burrell: The reason is that in the initiation of the system the cost was very great. In the last few years many of the heavier payments have been falling off, and there have not been as many cold storages established, because the territory has been pretty well covered. Speaking from memory, we have only established three or four during the last four or five years, and in some of these cases, where the expenditure was very heavy, they have almost entirely completed their payments.


George Perry Graham: Under this heading, it
would not he inappropriate to ask the Min-
ister of Railways whether the Government, in view of the discussion which has taken place, and in view of the admitted increasing very high cost of living, has given serious attention to the suggestion that the Government take over the cold storage enterprises of; Canada, and operate them for the public good at the least possible cost. Even while we were discussing it the other night, the price of bread went up one cent a loaf, notwithstanding all the promises made by the Minister of Labour.


Martin Burrell: But it went down again. My hon. friend realizes, as well as I do, what an enormous proposition that would be to consider very seripusly, because the cold storages scattered all over the country, apart from those assisted by the Government, represent a vast amount of money, and it would be very difficult for the Government tp operate them. We are getting a lot of information in regard to the matter, and that has been done very largely under the Order in Council passed recently and which is being administered by the Minister of Labour. The Government is investigating the whole subject much more thoroughly than ever before, but I dpubt whether it would be advisable to take over the whole cold storage system.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It seems to me, as the Government is seriously considering the nationalization of the railways that it would be far easier at the present time to nationalize the cold storage system of Canada. I think the high cost of living has reached such a mark that the people are expecting the Government to do something in this line. What are the regulations at present governing those cold storages at Montreal, Toronto, London, Winnipeg, and other large centres? Is there any authority on the part of the Government tp release some of the food after a certain time, or can the owner of the cold storage establishment keep those products for what length of time he chooses? Really, the time has come when the Government should consider the question whether the food should not be released from cold storage. A charge is made against the cold storage-I do not say it is true-but the time has come when the Government should consider whether or not the cold storage plants should not be nationalized. Food has reached such a price that people cannot live in a reasonable way. It is impossible for a man who has a fixed income of, say, $1,000 or $1,200, and who has a family of three or four children, to live and provide for his family. This is a very

serious question, and I would like my hon. friend to tell the committee whether the Government really intend to do something in the matter. I am not revolutionary, I am not socialistic, I do not wish to grab any other man's property, but in view of the crisis through which we are passing, is it not time for the Government to seriously consider the propriety of nationalizing the cold storage system so that food may be released for the consumers at a reasonable figure?	.


Martin Burrell: The question which my hon. friend has raised is a very big one indeed. Even if, as he suggests, food in the cold storages were released, it does not follow that the conditions to which he has referred would be in any way relieved. If you were to take out the relatively small amount of food in the cold storages all over the country to-day, it would keep the population going but a very short time. A comparatively small amount of the food that is used is put in cold storage, and if the cold storages were actually abolished it is questionable whether food would be cheaper. I cannot believe that it would be very much cheaper. This is a very intricate question. We are to be provided with full information on this question, and that information will be laid before the House. But, in the meantime, I may say that taking over all the cold storages is almost like taking over a commercial line of business which involves going into every city and town of this country and practically conducting a business operation which would involve the Government in endless difficulties, and, in a sense, would involve it in more difficulties than the nationalization of the railways. You are taking hold of an ordinary business concern, dealing with the question of supply and demand with regard to all conceivable kinds of products, buying and selling, and I think my hon. friend, if he were to look into some of the difficulties surrounding that proposition, would realize that it is a very big one indeed. I am quite aware that the cost of living has gone up to a point where it is pressing on a great many people, and pressing very hard, and I need not assure my hon. friend that the Government, as well as every thoughtful individual in this country, is giving the whole matter an immense amount of consideration. But the difficulties are not such as this or any other Government can solve very readily. I am fairly familiar with what has been done in Great Britain and, to some extent, in France, Italy, and
even Germany, with reference to the question of food control, but the difficulty has been so great that even where they had taken action they have had actually to reverse the action that they had taken. They have found immense difficulties. They are finding them in the United States. They are taking great powers but they admit that it will be very difficult to exercise those powers. The real reason is not that which has be

 ''i'"''ed upon by my hon. friend so much as the absolute world shortage of food supplies. In the present condition of Canada, as wed as of the United States, the cost of the production to the farmers, owing to the tremendous shortage of labour, has been contemporaneous with the mounting cost of food supplies. The increased cost of production and the diminished amount of the product are to my mind almost entirely responsible for the increased cost of food and the increase is general. In every country in tne world, the cost is the indicator really of the world's resources, and although it is true that here and there the speculative element may enter into the question of cost, yet, on the whole the mounting cost is an indication of the shortage that exists in every particular commodity. I [DOT] am quite sure that throughout the world, and in Canada as well, that condition that my hon. friend alludes to is more directly traceable to the shortage of supplies and to the decrease in production than to any other cause. However, I can assure my hon. friend that we are giving consideration to this question.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have here the index table showing the increase in the cost of' living for the average family. According to the statistics gathered by the Department of Labour in sixty cities in Canada, in April, 1914, the cost for the average family was $7.51 per week. That is very low. In April of this year the cost had risen to $10.77 per week and, with the addition of coal, wood, lighting and rent, the total is brought up to $17.34. I have a list of the prices of various commodities. It is simply appalling and I do not know what the people can do to maintain themselves and to be cheerful under these circumstances. I do not wish to make any appeal that would savour of demagoguery, but' I must say that it is a serious situation. The Government and Parliament are about to consider the nationalization of railways, and that is a very important question that demands an early solution, but is it not a fact that the question of food and the nationalization of cold storage is far more im-[DOT] portant than the nationalization of rail-

ways? You will have riots in this country next winter, you will have bread riots, if the Government do not take a firm hand now to control food. I was also referring a moment or two ago to rentals and the price of coal. I wish to give this warning. About ten days ago I was in New York attending a meeting as a director of a railway company which has subsidiary lines in Canada. The president of the Delaware and Hudson Railway Company, which takes care of most of the coal transportation from Pennsylvania to Canada, said to me: "I am amazed, Mr. Lemieux, to find that at this date we have not half of the coal transportation to Canada that we had last year or the year previous. What are you thinking about in Canada? You will suffer next winter if you have not your coal." But that is aside from the question. I simply wished to refer to_that conversation to show that if the Government do not take with a firm hand the control and transportation of fuel and the control of food, they will have a very serious situation to contend with in Canada. It is the duty of the Government to see to it that such conditions do not arise. I am very sincere. The Government should take hold now of the cold storage situation and, if need be, make terms with the companies that are controlling the cold storage establishments; otherwise you will have riots in this country. I hope they will not occur hut if the cost of living increases a few notches more, you will remember what I said this evening in the House. I do not wish that to happen, and I hope the Government will be patriotic and firm enough to boldly take this question in hand and settle it according to the best interests of the people.


Mr. C. A. WILSON:: Would the minister give us some information about the exportation of food and especially of farm products to the United States and other countries? Has any action 'been taken by the Government? I am informed that along the north shore of the St. Lawrence river for the past few days dealers from Maine and Vermont have 'been going to the farmers and inducing them to sign contracts at a stipulated price for all their products for the coming year, eggs, fowl, sheep and cattle. I appreciate the difficulty of controlling such a situation, but I should like to know if the minister is informed of the facts and if any steps have been taken or are contemplated.


Martin Burrell: I have not heard of this matter. [DOT] There is nothing under our present system which would prevent American

dealers purchasing in Canada under such conditions, and making contracts with any farmers who wished to enter into them. I had not heard of the circumstances, but I shall make inquiries.


Mr. McCOIG:: In the section from which I come there seems to be a very strong feeling that the Government should take some action to regulate the cold storage systems o'f this country, and I join with the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) in saying that the Government should not hesitate a moment to see that storing of food supplies in the different cold storage systems of Canada is regulated in some way. If the cold storage plants are allowed to continue to purchase at the present prices and to fill up their plants it simply means that the prices the consumers will pay next winter will be exorbitant, and the prediction of the hon. gentleman that there will be riots will be fulfilled. I feel satisfied that the Government do not wish that to occur. I had it drawn to my attention the other day, notwithstanding the statement made by the Minister of Labour, that in the different cold storage systems mentioned to me there are $4,500,000 worth of goods. The plants named to me were the Lindsay cold storage, Flavelle Bros, of Peterborough, the Harrison and Kincardine cold storage plants and the Harris Abattoir of Toronto, a subsidiary company to the William Davies Company. If that is true, and I feel satisfied it is, it is sufficiently important for this Committee of this House to investigate before we proceed to pass more money for this purpose. If there is to-day in the cold storage systems I have mentioned over four and one-half million dollars worth of foodstuffs, what will it mean next fall? It means that, with the price that is now being paid to the producer for eggs, forty cents at the farmer's door, the price will be at least double that to the consumer next winter. Eggs are only one commodity. There are other necessities of life concerned, and I feel that we would be justified in asking to have this item stand until the officers of the department investigate the statement I have made. I feel that the Department of Agriculture and the minister himself must feel that there is something radically wrong with the cold storage systems of this country when they are reducing the estimate by over $100,000. If the estimate is to be reduced by "over $100,000 it must mean that the department are not in sympathy with the methods being adopted by the different systems, and this is a further reason why



[Stage Direction]
we should ascertain whether the statements that have been made are correct or not. If they are correct, then it is up to this Parliament to take some drastic action and see that the consumers of this country are not held up as they are reported to be. There seems to be some foundation for the different resolutions that are being passed by consumers, by the labouring men and the people generally, throughout Canada. They feel suspicious that there is something radically wrong, and if such is the case, I believe that we would be doing only our duty in asking to have this item stand pending further investigation.
Mr. STEELE:: This question of food supplies and the cost of living is one that seems to be continually with us, but I think it is about time that the members of this House and many of the -people of the country should begin to take a sane view as to the causes of the high cost of living and of the supply of food. I might say that if the proposition of the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) should be seriously considered by the Government, they would find many of the cold storage men in Canada delighted with the prospect pf having their cold storage plants taken over, because to-day many of them, and I speak now not of the larger ones of which I know nothing, but many of the medium and small cold storage plants, present a prospect of being white elephants on the hands of the owners.' I can tell the minister that there is a cold storage plant in my riding, one of the very best in western Ontario, that he can take over any day at his own valuation-and the owners will be delighted to get rid of it. We talk pf the high cost of living, but it seems to me that the old Adam remains in us yet, that we are not willing to take the blame that should lie upon ourselves, but want to cast that blame on this person pr that person, or any person who will not resent it. Some people blame it on the farmer; when they have no other person to blame the ppor farmer is attacked. I want to say to-night that the farmer is producing dairy food supplies to-day at a cost of about 75 per cent more than three or four years ago, and if the price has increased, surely the farmer is entitled to at least the increased cost of production. Then there are efforts, such as we have had here to-night and as we have had many times this session, to lay the blame on the cold storage people. The hpn, member for Kent (Mr. McCoig) has just given us a statement which he says he
has received that there are $4,500,000 worth of food supplies in the cold storage plants of this country at the present time.


Archibald Blake McCoig: That was in five which I mentioned.	,


Michael Steele: Then take the plants to
which he refers. I regret that there aTe not $25,000,000 worth of food supplies in these plants at the present time. And why do I say that? The fact that there is only $4,500,000 worth of goods in these plants clearly indicates the alarming shortage of meats and dairy produce. $4,500,000 worth of goods would mean 10,000,000 dozen eggs, having regard, to the present prices. How long would 10,000,000 dozen eggs last the people of Canada? I venture to say that if no more goods were placed in these cold storage plants during the period of a month, they would be empty at the end of that time. Undoubtedly prices next fall will be higher than they are to-day, not because the cold storage plants are hoarding food products for higher prices, but because they are unable to get them in sufficient quantities for an ample storage to provide for the shortage which must inevitably come next fall and winter. The farmers of western Ontario to-day get 40 cents a dozen for eggs, whereas they got only 30 cents at the same time last year. In fact, the cold stor-. age men are indifferent as to whether or not they put eggs into cold storage. They are unable to export their eggs as they did to some extent last year, because they cannot get any guarantee of transportation across the Atlantic. For several reasons they are afraid to store goods under present high prices, because they know not wihat may happen before next fall which may subject them to great loss. They are paying considerably more for butter also than they did this time last year. I see nothing in store for us, therefore, except very much higher prices for dairy produce next winter than prevailed last winter.
Hon. gentlemen talk as if cold storage, particularly as relating to eggs, were a new system. As far back as I can remember, and long before that, eggs were preserved in the summer, when they were cheap, for use in winter, when they were expensive. Many hon. gentlemen will remember the old-fashioned method of pickling eggs and putting them in vats; thousands of dozens of eggs were preserved in that way. The preservation of eggs, therefore, did not originate with the cold storage plant; it is simply the method of preservation that has changed.

The remedy for the high cost of living rests not with the Government, although possibly the Government can do something. It rests not with the cold storage people, although possibly they can do a little, too. Nor does it rest with the working man, nor with the man of moderate means, who, after all, is the only man who during the last eight or ten years has been practising economy. The people of the other classes have been living most extravagantly; we are to-day living most extravagantly. An American authority on this subject recently said that there is no reason why every family, excluding, of course, the classes which I have mentioned, should not be able to reduce the cost of their foodstuffs by at least 50 per cent, and at the same time nourish their bodies just as w.ell. Look in our restaurants, our hotels-yes, in our homes-and see the waste of food that takes place from time to time. There is an opportunity of saving foodstuffs; there is a means by which we can reduce the cost, because as the supply increases, prices are reduced. The most effective way of reducing the cost of living and of increasing the supply of foodstuffs is by avoiding waste and extravagance. But the selfish spirit naturally asserts itself. We would rather criticise the Government or the cold storage people than practise self-denial and disappoint our appetites and desires. Individual cold storage concerns may be deserving of criticism, but instead of criticising them as a class, we ought to encourage them. I would almost go so far as to say that the Government ought to give them a little assistance in their efforts to provide against the scarcity of food which must ensue during next fall and winter.


Mr. GLASS:: 
Frank Oliver: The committee must have been struck by the solution which our two hon. friends have offered to the problem of the high cost of living, namely: Do not eat so much.


Michael Steele: Do not w>aste so much.


Frank Oliver: To my hon. friend from
South Perth I would say that if he feels

he is too extravagant in his expenditure, that is his affair, and I should he glad if he would speak for himself 'and not include me in his suggestion, because I have no guilty feeling along that line at all. I do feel, however, that I pay more for what I get than I ever did before, but I do not admit that I am getting more than I ever did before or more than I am entitled to. I do not suppose that the principle of cold storage as an economic proposition needs any defence at the hands of anybody. No one is attacking the economic propriety of the cold storage system. Neither is anybody suggesting that the_ farmer should not receive as high a price as he can get for his products. If I correctly gathered the sense of the suggestions of my hon. friend from Rouville and my hon. friend from Kent it is not to the fanners' prices or to the use of cold storage that exception is taken, hut the question is raised 9 p.m. as to the manipulation of prices by or for the benefit of those who control the cold storage plants. That is the question at issue in the high cost of living that is interesting to members of Parliament and to the country, and to which they desire to call the attention of the Government. If the consumer only pays what the producer got, plus charges for carrying and other services rendered, nobody has any fault to find; but if the consumer pays what the producer received plus charges for carrying and other services rendered, and also an exorbitant profit, the result of the manipulation of the market, then there is cause for complaint, and we desire to draw the attention of the Government to the possibility of the existence of that condition, and demand correction of it at their hands.
We have had a sufficiently startling instance of manipulation of food prices during the last few months with regard to western wheat. It has already been stated to the House that the wheat left the farmer's hands at a price of from $1.20 to $1.80 per bushel, but the consumer 'has to pay for that flour on the basis of $3 a bushel or over. The farmer does * not get that price, but the consumer pays it. Service was not rendered for that difference in price; it is simply a matter of manipulation resulting in financial benefit to those who are in a position to control the supply of wheat. What has occurred so markedly in the case of wheat is, we believe, occurring every day with regard to those foods which are the subject of cold storage. We believe that the opportunities that necessarily come to those who control cold storage operations, 
not necessarily the owners of the plants, are taken advantage of by those in control of cold storage operations, in the manipulation of prices for their own benefit and to the cost of the consumer. There are many questions facing the people of this country at the present time. I think everybody will admit that to the city dweller at any rate the high cost of living is one of the . most pressing problems he has to face. That being the case, it is the business of the Government of this country to take such measures as can be taken for the purpose of securing an amelioration of that condition. Now, if it is the fact that five cold storage plants in the province of Ontario handle the amount of food that they are said to handle per month, it must be quite obvious that practically the whole food supply passes through these plants and is subject to manipulation at the hands of those in control of the plants.


Michael Steele: Do I infer that my hon. friend thinks the people of this country make use of only $4,500,000 worth of such goods per month?


Frank Oliver: What I say is that $4,500,000 of such goods per month is a very important part of the food supply of that section of the country where those plants are operating, and I am satisfied that the operation of those plants in large measure fixes the price of food to the people of that part of the country, just exactly as the manipulation of wheat last spring fixed the price that my hon. friend has to pay for the flour he buys to-day. It 'being an admitted fact that such a large proportion of the food supply passes through those plants and is therefore possibly subject to undue manipulation for the benefit of those who control these operations, these plants being under the responsibility ,of this Government, and many of them, I believe, receiving aid in actual money from the treasury of this country, it is the paramount duty of the Government, and I would say even before this item passes, to satisfy this House and the country whether or not there is such manipulation of prices of the food products going through these cold storage plants. This question of the high cost of living is with us; it is here now; it is pressing, and it will become more pressing from day to day. If there is an actual scarcity of fo.od in the country then that scarcity makes the food supply still more and more susceptible to manipulation for the profit of those who hold and cpntrol it, and therefore makes it still more necessary that there should be an investigation of the facts of the case.

My hon. friend from Middlesex said that if it should he the case that food is unduly withheld from the market for the purpose of enhancing the price, that would be an abuse. Surely it would be an abuse, and it is an abuse that is known to have occurred in the past, when the conditions of stress that prevail to-day did not obtain. We ask that in the conditions of stress that exist to-day this country be given the guarantee fit the Government that such a condition does not now exist-a guarantee that there is no holding up of the food supply of the people for the purpose of unduly enhancing the price, either by causing undue waste or simply by h.olding back the supply, thereby causing the people who eat three times a day to pay more for the food they eat. I urge upon the minister that he appreciate the importance of this question to the people, and that under the authority that is vested in him-and it is vested in him by the act pf this House-he take measures to satisfy the House and the country that there is no undue manipulation of the food supply under pretense of_ giving it the economic advantage of cold storage.


Martin Burrell: 
Frank Oliver: When was the work of
collecting this information begun, and when may it be expected to be finished?
Mr. BURREt,L: Perhaps the Minister of Labour can answer. The cold storages we have subsidized and over which the Government has control is very limited, and this vote of $50,000 only applies practically to those who aTe finishing up their payments, which have been spread over six years. I think most of them have completed the payments.


Rodolphe Lemieux: A vote was passed by
my hon. friend's predecessor in office in regard to cold storage in connection with butter. Is that still in existence?


Martin Burrell: That is in the other
vote and is for the establishment of cooling apparatus.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Was it taken advantage of last year?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: In answer to the question asked by my hon. friend from Edmonton, the Order in Council to which reference has been made, was passed on the 10th November. We at once proceeded to get ready to make the inquiries authorized by that Order in Council, and the work of sending out questions was begun in the latter part of December. Last night or the night before I gave the House samples ,of the questions sent out to the different wholesale and retail men and manufacturers. We first took up anthracite coal, which appeared to be a more pressing matter than any other. That was followed

by questions in regard to sugar. We asked questions Tuning back for four years, as to the quantities ,on hand at a particular date, the cost, the amount of sales during that year, and we required them to send us a monthly statement as to the quantities on hand, what it cost them, the quantities sold and the prices at which these quantities were sold. For instance, we sent out 300 questions to the leading dealers in anthracite coal throughout the country. We got returns from them under very searching forms of oath. Sometimes these returns were not very satisfactory, and we required further and better answers to the questions. AfteT correspondence, we received what we believed to be satisfactory and truthful returns. We are getting monthly returns now of the quantity of coal each man has on hand at the beginning of the month, what it cost him, how much he bought during the month, and what he is selling it at. I went into details in regard to sugar the night before last. We came to the conclusion that the profits on sugar, for instance, were not unreasonable, averaging generally about fifty cents a ton to the retailer. We got the price of coal at the pit's m.outh, the freight on it, the cost of delivery, the cost of overhead Charges, and so on, and checked the answers we got from each individual by information we had at our disposal from other sources. It is well known that the chief element governing the price of sugar is the cost of the raw material, which has gone up in price 100 per cent since the beginning of the war. The freight on sugar from Cuba has risen from nine cents to seventy-six cents a hundred pounds. The coal used in connection with the refineries has doubled in price. The chemicals that they use in refining sugar have gone up 300 per cent. Bags and packages have gone up in price. Labour has materially increased since the beginning of the year. Two of the refineries in Canada made no profit at all. One was operated at an actual loss. Another made only sufficient to pay interest on the bonds. On the whole, their profits amounted, on the average, to about a fifth of a cent a pound on sugar, which would not he regarded as a very great profit. The last price fixed for sugar was $8.35 a hundred to the wholesaler. Sugar is being sold by the retailer in a great many cases at 9 cents and in some cases, at 10 cents a p.ound, the man having paid $8.35 per hundred for it.
As to cold storage, we have gone into that question very thoroughly. The hon.' member for West Kent (Mr. McCoig) a few [Mr. Grothers. 1
nights ago, made a statement in the House that a certain company, perhaps the largest in Canada, operating cold storage, was seeking insurance on commodities aggregating in value about $2,000,000. That seemed to be a large sum of money. I am informed by the president of the company that that sta/tement had no foundation in fact, that they are insured every day according to the amount they have in store, and that it varies from day to day. I have a full statement of that company's business. They have three concerns, one in Montreal, one in Toronto and one in Winnipeg, and we have the particulars of all their business, including beef, bacon, pork, cheese, butter, eggs, fish, and some small articles. We have the details, and we have the amount they actually had on hand at the time the statement was made up. The last statement we got was about the first of April, showing the quantity they purchased every month, the amount on hand, the details of the quantities of these different articles purchased and on hand, the prices they paid and the prices at 'which they are selling them. This evidence shows that if they had $2,000,000 worth of commodities on hand, that would be a very small amount for them and would not last them foT half a month.


Archibald Blake McCoig: If they had $3,000,000 of stock on hand it would not be surprising that they should ask for $2,700,000 of insurance, because that amount of insurance would not be out of proportion.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The president of the company informs me that they had never made application for $2,000,000 of insurance at the same time.


Archibald Blake McCoig: The statement was not made that they were asking for that amount from any one company, but that they were placing that amount of insurance on their stock with different companies in proportionate amounts, not one amount.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am told by the president of the company that it is not so at all, that they have not asked for insurance to that extent at any particular time from any company or any number of companies. They are insured from day to day as the amount in the storage varies, and it would not likely vary to the extent of $2,000,000 in a day. That company is one that, I am told by the president, does a business amounting to ' about $1,000,000 a week. According to our last report their business for a month

amounted to about $3,000,000. We have every month a statement of the amount bought, the quantity in hand and the selling price. They were turning over about $3,000,000 a month at the time of the last statement, and I am told by the president now that they are turning over $4,000,000 a month; so that $2,000,000 worth of stock on hand would be only half of what they required for the next month. They are largely exporters. I laid on the Table today a report from the commissioner who has been devoting his attention to these inquiries. I laid on the Table reports, which will be found very interesting, concerning anthracite coal and refined sugar. The commissioner has in preparation a report touching cold storage, which will cover every cold storage in Canada. Others will have reference to the canners, flour, ice, bread and potatoes. These reports will follow at no distant date. If hon. gentlemen have time to look over these reports they will find them very interesting. I think they ought to 'be printed and sent out to the people, so that they will see what the exact facts touching cold storage and all these other commodities I have mentioned are. We are satisfied that there is no such thing as withholding in cold storage for the purpose of enhancing prices in the future. Prices are so high now that the keeping in cold storage of a large quantity of these commodities would become useless and would not he warranted. We have a provision in this Order in Council prohibiting the withholding from sale, or accumulation, of any quantity more than a man requires for his own use or for the ordinary purposes of his business. He is bound to sell to the public. Perhaps the committee will 'bear with me while I read again what I read the night before last-clause 3 of this Order in Council. It is in these words:-
. |
No person shall accumulate or shall withhold from sale any necessary of life-
That is defined as including food, fuel and clothing-
-beyond an amount thereof reasonably required for the use or consumption of his household or for the ordinary purposes of his business ;
(2) Every person who shall at any time hold any necessary of life beyond an 5-mount thereof reasonably required as aforesaid, and every -person who shall hold for the purpose of sale, whether as manufacturer, wholesaler, jobber, retailer or otherwise, any stock-in-trade of any necessary of life, shall offer for sale the said excess amount, or the said stock-in-trade, as the case may be, at prices not higher than are reasonable and just.


Archibald Blake McCoig: Has there ever been a conviction under that clause of the Order in Council?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: There has been no conviction under it in so far as I am aware, but there is nothing to prevent my hon. friend from West Kent, if he knows of any violation of the section, proceeding with the prosecution of a man for such violation.


Archibald Blake McCoig: I called the minister's attention to a tobacco case and the minister told me to tell the man who was affected to go ahead but refrained from doing.it himself. It is for the Government to do it.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I do not remember receiving any letter from the hon. gentleman concerning tobacco, but I have no doubt it is true if he says so. But tobacco does not come within the provisions of this Order in Council.


Frank Oliver: Is tobacco not a necessary of life?
v Mr. CROTHERS: It may be but it is not covered by the term "necessaries of life." That term simply covers food, fuel and clothing. My hon. friend (Mr. McCoig) thinks the Government ought to proceed to prosecute. He knows very well that it is not the duty of this' Government to proceed, in so far as criminal, or quasi criminal, laws made by this Parliament are concerned, except where the violation of such laws affects directly the revenues of the country. It is the duty of the provincial governments to enforce the criminal law made by this Parliament. If a farmer in my hon. friend's constituency had one of his horses stolen he would never think of writing down to the Minister of Justice at Ottawa, or to the Minister of Labour, to ask him to prosecute John- Brown for stealing his horse. He would go to the county crown attorney of Kent whose duty it is to look after such matters. If there has been any violation of the- law concerning tobacco, it is up to the local authorities to prosecute. No Government has ever undertaken to prosecute in such cases. Fancy this' Government undertaking to prosecute somebody in Nanaimo, Vancouver Island, for violating the provisions of this Order in Council in regard to milk. As I said a moment ago, that is the provision to prevent withholding. Under section 9, provision is made for prosecuting in a case of that" kind.


Mr. MEDERIC MARTIN:: Referring to
section 6, when that Order in Council was



passed, it would have been much better if the Government had named a commission o<r to make inquiry in all Canada as they have done in the United States on entering the war. Such a commissioner would take an inventory of each item in cold storage and make a report to the Government. The minister said a few moments ago it is the duty of the provincial government or the municipality to take up that question. I do not think so. I think that this Government, before passing the Order in Council, should have named a commisisioner to make an inquiry not only in one or two cities 'but throughout the whole country. That was the duty of this Government, not of the provincial government or municipality.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I shall be glad to
come to my hon. friend's question in a moment. I was about to show the provision of clause 9 which might be applied in case of a violation of clause 3, which I read because the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) raised the question. Clause 9 is in these words:
(1) Any person who contravenes or fails to observe any of the provisions of these regulations shall be guilty of an Indictable offence and liable upon indictment or upon summary conviction under Part XV of the Criminal Code to a penalty not exceeding five thousand dollars, or to imprisonment for any term not exceeding two years, or to both fine and imprisonment as specified; and any director or officer of any company or corporation who assents to or acquiesces in the contravention or non-observance by such company or corporation of any of the provisions of these regulations shall be guilty personally and cumulatively with hts company or corporation and with his co-directors or associate officers.
There is a provision in this Order in Council that no prosecution shall be held anywhere without the consent of the Attorney General of the province. In case of a violation, of this section 3,1 think it is quite clear, that a man having a cold storage plant would be bound to sell at a reasonable and just price to men to whom he would be selling in the ordinary course of business. I do not think he would be obliged under that clause to sell to a private individual, as he is not a retailer, but I think he would be compellable to sell to a wholesale man at a reasonable and just price, and he would be violating the provision of that clause if he withheld more than was necessary for his own use or for use in the ordinary course of his business. I might call the attention of my hon. friend from Montreal (Mr. Martin) to a few words in subsection 2 of section 3. One of the officers of the city of Montreal pointed out

the difficulty of proving the excess amount referred to in that clause. The gentleman criticising that clause lost sight altogether of the words "or the said stock in trade." It is not confined to the excess that he would have over and above the amount he would usually have in his possession in the ordinary course of business or for the use of his own family; he is bound to sell not only that excess but the stock in trade, so that if a man in the ordinary course of his business was selling coal and refused to sell a portion of his stock in trade at a reasonable price, he would, I think, be clearly violating that provision of the clause, and with the assent of the Attorney General of the province, the municipality could proceed under section 9 to his prosecution.
Now as to the question raised by my hon. friend from Montreal:	Section 4 of this
Order in Council authorizes the Minister of Labour to make investigations all over the country, not in any one particular place, and section 5 authorizes the municipality to make an inquiry touching matters affecting its own people. While we have not confined our investigations' entirely to such larger questions as affect the whole Dominion, it was thought well to give the municipality power to inquire concerning matters within its own boundaries, and that it would not be practicable for us at Ottawa, for instance, to inquire into a complaint at Nanaimo as to the cost of milk there. And so section 5 was provided in these words :
Whenever the council of any municipality shall declare by way of resolution that In its opinion excessive prices are being demanded within the limits of such municipality for any necessary of life, such council may, by notice in writing under the hand of its clerk or other authorized officer, require any person dealing within the municipality in such necessary of life, and locally situate therein, to make and render unto such council within a time set in such notice, and such person shall make and render unto such council, precisely as required by it, a written return under oath or affirmation, showing in detail-
I need not give the details of the questions they ate thereby authorized to ask and to compel answers under oath. If these answers, come in and are not satisfactory, the municipality, under section b of section 5, may apply to the Minister of Labour to press the investigation further, and further investigation may be made by the Minister of Labour himself or by any one whom he authorizes in writing to take evidence under oath and to require the dealer to produce his books and all that sort of thing under section 6.

But I have notified all the large municipalities in Canada, including the one my hon. friend has the honour to represent, the city of Montreal, that if they comply with section 5 and request me by resolution of the council to authorize one of their officials, the city solicitor or any other official of the municipality, I will authorize him under section 6 to proceed with the fuller examination that I am authorized under that section to make, and any such officer so authorized by me in writing could call witnesses, examine them under oath, compel the dealer to produce his books and investigate the whole matter, and so the officer of the city of Montreal or any other city would have the investigation under his own control. That is in connection with matters that affect a city alone. A municipality is not given authority to investigate these larger questions that affect the whole country, we invesigate them. As J said, we have not confined the power of investigation to our own department; we thought it convenient to authorize the municipality to deal with matters within its own boundary. For instance, we have a great many complaints about the cost of milk and bread. Unless we had a staff of officers of about 100 or 200 we could not undertake to inquire into these questions in every city, town and village in Canada. We give each municipality that power, and some little time ago I proposed to enlarge their powers because some of them said it was necessary to examine witnesses under oath and make the merchants show their books. I notified them by circular letter that, as I was authorized under section 6, I would confer that power on any officer of the municipality whom they might name so that they might proceed in these investigations without any further reference to us. It is easy to say that this Government ought to do that sort of thing, but we dp not do it, it is no part of our duty to do it. It is necessary to get the consent of the Attorney General before prosecution can be made, as, for instance, under the Lord's Day Act. No prosecution under that Act can be made without the consent of the Attorney General of the province in which the offence is said to have been committed. So it is under these regulations. I think that the' facts regarding cold storage are not generally known. I hope io be able to lay on the Table in a few days a full report concerning cold storage. I shall ask the House to have it printed, together with these other reports, in order that they may bo circulated. I am sure that they will 132i
throw a great deal of light upon these questions, which the people naturally dp not know so much about, because they have not the time or the opportunity to inquire into the details.


Archibald Blake McCoig: The Minister of Labour
has read the Order in Council which has been passed regulating cold storage companies and other concerns that hold foodstuffs to the disadvantage of the consumers. The minister admitted that no convictions have been made under this Order in Council. He assures me that any person who has been held up by the food trusts can take action. But the common people cannot conveniently take action against large corporations, for they would get into lawsuits and incur a great deal of trouble and expense. The high cost of living and the storage of food supplies should be regulated by an officer of the Government. The Government appointed officers to enforce the war tax measure, which is not of as much importance to the common people as this Order in Gouncil. The officers appointed in connection with the war tax measure were sent around as detectives to purchase articles in a kind of sneaking manner, under circumstances not creditable to them or to the Government. These officers purchased drugs and other small articles from merchants in the back concessions and in the outskirts of small cities and towns with a view to securing convictions for lack of compliance with the Act.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend represents a constituency in which beans are grown to quite a considerable extent. I understand that beans are now selling at $5 a bushel.


Archibald Blake McCoig: May I correct the minister? They are selling at $10 and $12.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: All the better for my argument; I remember when they were selling at 45 cents. Would my hon. friend desire this Government to pass an Order in Council prohibiting any farmer in his constituency from selling beans at a higher price than $3 a bushel?


Archibald Blake McCoig: The minister seems to be wandering. I was not talking about beans or the price of beans.	.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Will the hon. gentleman answer the question?


Archibald Blake McCoig: The question does not bear on this subject. For my part, however, I shall be delighted, if the minister will give me the assurance that we will get even $3

a bushel for our beans, to put in thirty acres this year instead of fifteen, as I had intended.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That is no answer to the question.


Archibald Blake McCoig: I do not understand the minister's point.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I thought I made it plain. Do you desire the Government to pass an Order in Council fixing the price of beans to the farmer in West Kent at any amount you may think fair, say, $3 a bushel?


Archibald Blake McCoig: 
Thomas Wilson Crothers: I do not think my hon. friend displays very good logic. One moment he says that we ought to appoint officers to enforce this Order in Council; the next moment' he says that officers that are appointed act very improperly.


Archibald Blake McCoig: No. I said you could get officers to enforce this law, but you could not get officers to enforce one more vital to the people of this country.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I explained a few minutes ago that this Government does enforce the laws concerning the revenues of the country and those laws only. We enforce the Customs laws and the Inland Revenue laws. This legislation refers to another department of Government. I know nothing about the gentleman to whom the hon. member refers as an officer and I did not recommend him. It is, however, necessary to have some penalty for enforcing that law putting a tax on certain kinds of drugs, and if a man violates that law, he is subject to the penalty imposed by the statute. If I remember aright, my attention was called to one extreme case, and after I looked into it, the amount of the fine was refunded. The better course for my hoii. friend from West Kent (Mr. MeCoig), instead of making charges against the Minister of Labour, who has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the enforcement of this war tax, would be to lay a complaint before the Minister of Inland Revenue, and the hon. member would then put himself in a position to get a remedy if anything improper had been done.


Mr. VERVILLE:: The Minister of Labour to-night has, as usual, read the whole Order in Council, and we now know it practically by heart. Would the Minister of Agriculture state the rate that is charged for eggs in cold storage per dozen per month?	.


Martin Burrell: I diid not know that my Estimates were coming up to-night, and as my special officer has left town, I am afraid I cannot give my hon. friend the figure tonight, but I will give it before I get through with my Estimates. We do not receive information as to the rates except in those plants which receive subsidies from the Government. In those cases, we fix the rates, and if there are any complaints, and if on investigation we think the rates are improper, we alter them, and we have done so from time to time. There As a special tariS for each warehouse that has been subsidized.


Alphonse Verville: I do not know the exact rate that the cold storage plants may charge to-day, but not long ago I gave to the House the Tates charged for storing eggs and many other commodities. The rate on eggs at that time was one and one-half cents per dozen per month including insurance, and while the rate may have been increased somewhat since then, it cannot have been increased to a very great extent. It is easy enough for my hon. friend to calculate the amount of profit these cold .storage people are making when he knows the exact Tate of storage, and* he will find that the profit on eggs and many other commodities in cold storage is exorbitant. Some years ago I stated in the House that cold storage plants are absolutely necessary. When they were first organized, they were organized for a good purpose, namely, to preserve in cold storage a certain quantity of goods that would be of use to the people in certain months of the year, and some of those cold storage warehouses were subsidized. Instead, however, of using their plants for this purpose, these cold storage people have exploited the public at large, .and I believe the Minister of Agriculture, although he may not have the exact figures, must know something about that matter. The minister switched us off a moment ago to the Minister of Labour, and, of course, the Minister of Labour spoke in regard to something else altogether; he spoke of coal, sugar and other things which do not go into cold storage. Last year the best cold storage we had was the home of the poor working man when coal was $15 a ton.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: la that cold storage
under the control of the Government?


Alphonse Verville: The Minister of Labour states that, according to his information, the price of coal is not too high having regard to the increased cost of production and so forth. Anthracite coal was sold last year at fifteen dollars a ton, and that coal did not cost any more then, and perhaps a good deal less, than it does to-day. Why then are the dealers allowed to sell coal at such a high price? My hon. friend says that in. the fall we shall be able to buy coal at a reasonable price, but we shi.ll have to wait until then to ' see whether it is the. case or not. I have more confidence in the Minister of Agriculture in regard to the question of foodstuffs, because he studies these questions, than I have in the Minister of Labour who seems to switch off every time. If we say that the cost of living is too high and ask for the appointment of a food controller, the Minister of Labour will read the Order in Council for about an hour and that is about all we get out of him, but when I address myself to the Minister of Agriculture, I really believe he is going to do something.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Hear, hear.


Alphonse Verville: The minister did not
say that the other night because he said he was against it-


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Against what?


Alphonse Verville: Against appointing a
food controller.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I did not say anything of the kind.


Alphonse Verville: Is the minister in
favour of appointing such an officer?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes.


Alphonse Verville: Well, we have gained
that much information in twenty-four hours. As regarde the Order in Council granting power to .municipalities to investigate, the minister has appointed a commissioner to look into the matter of the high price of potatoes. The commissioner started at Ottawa, and I am informed that he found a case against one of the potato dealers, but I understand he was prevented from proceeding. I understand the head of that large institution, the potato trust, if you call it such, happened to be somebody from New Brunswick, who, it was reported, should not be touched. The price of potatoes, however, is still advancing.

The other day my hori. friend sent somebody down to Montreal to find out why th>
price of flour had increased to $15 a 'barrel, but we have not heard anything more about it. My hon. friend says he has sent out questionnaires to all the big companies and cold storage plants in the country, but before the replies come in it is very likely that we shall have another crop and probably two. I am informed iby the city attorney. of Montreal, who is a pretty good lawyer, I believe, and by the chairman of the committee that was appointed in Montreal, who is also a member .of the Board of Control, that the city can compel these cold storage plants to make a sworn statement as to the goods in their possession, but I am very sorry to have to say that I would not accept those statements even if they were sworn to. The men in the cold storage business are no better informed than the men outside, and the reports of the cold storage companies are absolutely contrary to the reports that have been made on these plants by those who are not financially interested in them. I would not think .of giving the names of those who gave me that information, because they would not hold their positions for twenty-four hours. A statement from the cold storage company itself might be all right, but you will probably find that they have forgotten to state certain facts. The plan I would suggest is this. The minister should get some official of the department to go right into the cold storage plant and make a thorough investigation. He would then have information that he could rely on. I think that wohld be far better than sending out these questionnaires, because I can tell him it will be a long time before he gets the companies to send in correct answers. Prices are going up all the time, and the people are suffering more and more; the minister must admit that. I expect the minister will ask me whether I would be willing to see wages reduced, so I will tell him now that I "would 'be quite willing to see a reduction in wages if a corresponding reduction were made in the cost of living.
I think if my hon. friend sent officials from his department into these plants at Montreal, Toronto and other large centres he would be surprised at the reports that they would make to the department.
I think I was the first to bring the Cold storage question before the House some years ago, and in the following year I think the hon. member for Selkirk introduced a Bill, which the Government took up and passed, to prevent food remaining in cold

storage plants* for more than a certain period. Whether that law has been lived up to I do not know, but perhaps the minister does. I repeat again that the only solution is to send some one connected with the department directly into these cold storage plants to make a thorough investigation, and action should be taken by the Government as soon as their reports are received.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am reluctant to take so large a share in this discussion of my colleague's estimates, but since my hon. friend has referred to me so often I think I ought to say a word or two in reply. I am afraid I did not make myself clear when I was on my feet a few moments ago. I said that under this Order in Council I am authorized myself to make a thorough examination of witnesses under oath, to compel dealers to produce their books, and all that sort of thing; and not only am I authorized myself, but I am authorized to authorize anybody else to do it. I have invited the city of Montreal and other large cities to appoint a man-


Médéric Martin: Paid by the
city. Why did not the Government do it themselves? It is their duty.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I do not think it is our duty. As I was saying, I have suggested to the city authorities of Montreal and other large centres that at their request I will under the authority vested in me by clause 6 of these regulations authorize an official of the city to make that investigation. Now my hon. friend from Maisonneuve says that the city could not rely upon any affidavits that might be sent in. If that is the case, all the city has to do under the offer I made recently is to ask me to authorize the city solicitor or any other official to make the investigation, to examine witnesses under oath, to compel the dealers to show their books, and to	get all the details desired, and I shall be delighted to do it. So what is the use of blaming the Government for not making an investi-
10 p.m. gation and starting proceedings?
If my hon. friend from Maisonneuve will only exert his influence on the council of the city of Montreal, I have no doubt he will succeed in getting a man appointed who will have authority not merely to accept written affidavits, but to examine witnesses under oath and compel dealers to show their books and give all the information required. Is there anything more we can do?

My hon. friend has spoken about the price of coal. Personally, I do not know about the price of coal in Montreal, but I may say that last winter, in January or February, when the weather was pretty cold,
I saw a press despatch .that high prices were being charged in Montreal for coal. Without any application from anybody, I sent a wire to the Mayor of Montreal asking if there was any truth in the report, and I got a reply. Then I suggested that he should send a city official here, as it would only take a few hours, and we would give him any information we had gleaned from our own investigations, and assist him in every way possible. But he did not do it; he may have had good reasons for not sending anybody here; I am not finding fault with him for that. But surely he has no fault to find with us over that matter. I am told that the practice obtains in Montreal of selling coal in very small quantities in little paper bags containing ten, fifteen or twenty pounds. Selling it in little bags, 2,000 pounds of coal would aggregate $15 a ton, or, perhaps, $30, as some hon. member suggests. If there is any extortion the Order in Council provides a remedy under Section 3. I think my hon. friend, the mayor of Montreal, should call the attention of the officer who wrote criticising this Order in Council to the fact that his letter shows that he lost sight entirely of the words " or of stock in trade."


Médéric Martin: I think the hon. member does not know the gentleman.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I have not the advantage of an acquaintance with him, but his letter shows that he had not in mind at all the provision in this clause making it obligatory upon the dealer, not only to sell the excess over and above the ordinary amount of business, but to sell the stock in trade. He only dealt with the other question.


Alphonse Verville: If an officer were appointed by the minister under the Order in Council and if he were paid by the city, how would he be under the jurisdiction of the Government?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I did not say he would be under their jurisdiction.


Alphonse Verville: I am asking, would he be under their jurisdiction?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Power would be conferred on him under clause 6.


Alphonse Verville: But he would not be under the jurisdiction of the Government?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That is not material. The clause provides for an officer of the municipality; he would still be an officer of the municipality.


Alphonse Verville: Suppose that officer made a report, stating there was stock in trade over and above what was necessary, then application would have to be made to the Attorney General to prosecute him?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes.


Alphonse Verville: I desire to avoid all
that machinery. I am not speaking for Montreal alone, but for all cities and towns,
I think it should be in the hands of the Government, because they are powerful and . can accomplish the object in view. It is a question of trade and commerce, and the Government alone has the power to deal with it. It should be under the Department of Trade and Commerce, or under my hon. friend's department, because it has been given to him to look after. I may be mistaken, but it sounds more sensible to me that the matter should be under the jurisdiction of the Dominion Government.


William Pugsley: The minister stated that he investigated in regard to sugar, coal, and potatoes. Would he kindly state if he in- _ vestigated as to the price of flour?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I stated, amongst other things that there was in process of preparation a report concerning flour, canned goods, and iced and cold storage commodities. I laid two reports on the Table today, and will present others in the near future.


William Pugsley: The municipal council of a city could not thoroughly investigate the question as to flour. Supposing the council of Montreal appointed some one to ascertain whether the price of flour in Montreal was reasonable or unreasonable, the grocer from whom the flour is bought would say: "I had to pay so much to the miller." Suppose he buys flour from a manufacturer in Montreal, that manufacturer would say, "I had to pay so much for wheat, which i3 controlled by the speculator upon the Winnipeg grain exchange." Therefore the man in Montreal would have to be acquitted at once, because it would be said that he was simply charging the price which was regulated by circumstances which were beyond his control It seems to me that to effectively carry out any law for the regulating of food prices, and reducing the cost within proper Limits, you must have some authority which has jurisdiction through-

out Canada. The official must have jurisdiction, not only in the place where the finished product is .sold but in the place where lit is manufactured. The jurisdiction must be throughout the Dominion. It seems to me the point raised by the hon. gentleman from Maisonneuve that it was the duty of this Government to carry out this law to regulate food prices, and reduce them to proper limits, is one for the Dominion of Canada to deal with, as pertaining to the whole country. It is absurd, in my judgment, to call upon the municipality to investigate, when it can only make a half investigation, and cannot thoroughly investigate the matter. Bituminous coal is sold in Halifax by the wholesale dealer. Suppose a complaint were made against a man in Halifax by the city council of Halifax, and the dealer says, " It costs me so much for my coal down at the mine in another county." That is 'altogether outside the jurisdiction of the city council of Halifax, and, therefore, if the price charged at the mine were so high that there was not more than a reasonable profit accruing to the dealer in Halifax, the city council would !be powerless. You must investigate [DOT]the whole question. The food controller, or the authority investigating, must look, not only to what has taken place at the point of production, and must consider the nature of the transaction between the wholesaler and retailer. The hon. minister .says this is like the administration of the criminal law. I say it is not, because when Parliament enacts a criminal law, ordinarily nothing further is done. The whole machinery for the administration of that law is left in the hands of provincial authorities, but in this case the Government takes charge of a portion of the machinery, and it appoints people to investigate. It passes an Order in Council and it says to Montreal, " If you will name any-* body, we will appoint him," showing that the Government is taking control of the matter ,or pretending to take control of it, but it is only a pretense To the people of Canada that they are doing something to control food prices, and it is seeking to throw on the municipalities the duty of making an investigation, knowing full well that they have not the machinery to make a thorough investigation, and that, after all, the most that will result from it will be that the Government will be able to make the excuse that they give to the municipalities the power, when they know perfectly well that the duty rests upon the fMr. Pugsley.]
Dominion. Another feature of it is that no criminal proceedings can be taken without the authority of the Attorney General, throwing in the way of , the prosecution another difficulty. The minister likens it in that respect to the provision in regard to the enforcement of the law relating to the violation of the Lord's Day but he knows perfectly well that the conditions are entirely different. The reason for putting in that provision was that, throughout Canada, different views are held with regard to the observance of the Lord's Day. In some provinces the view as to the observance of the Sabbath is very different from the view in other provinces, and it is thought better that the Attorney General of each province, being cognizant of the public sentiment in the province, should be called upon to give his consent, so that it could be fairly inferred that public opinion was behind the prosecution for violation of the Lord's Day Act. I would ask my hon, friend w hat was the result of his inquiry as to the cost of coal at St. John. Anthracite coal in St. John is selling at $14 a ton, with open water between the city and point of production at the anthracite coal mines in Pennsylvania. In asking this question I do not want it to be understood that I am charging the dealers of St. John with demanding excessive prices. It may be that it is the result of the conditions governing transportation and the cost of production. I only ask the minister what the result of the investigation was.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: The item before the committee is:
Towards the encouragement of cold storage warehouses for the better preservation and handling of perishable food products.
I would like to remind the committee that the price of flour, the cost of coal and the observance of the Lord's Day Act hardly come within the scope of this item.


William Pugsley: That may he true, but it would be an extraordinary circumstance if, after the Minister of Labour has been dealing with all these questions, one should not be permitted to pursue the matter further, but that the discussion should be shut off at this point. I would hope that my hop. friend would not press his point of order, because if time is consumed now in getting information, it will not be necessary to consume time at a later stage. But these questions must be answered before these Estimates are passed. They will come up at some stage, and it is very much better

to have the discussion go on in a friendly way and have the information given now.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I will be very glad indeed to answer my hon. friend. Our information is that the coal dealers in St. John do not buy their coal at the pit's mouth owing to the circuitous routes of the railways, but they buy it from dealers in New York city. Sometimes they are obliged to buy it from what are called independents in New York, that is dealers who are outside of the regular dealers. Sometimes they have to pay a very exorbitant price for coal in order to load a vessel. I think they have paid as high as $14 a ton in New York city in order to get a load hurriedly. But they do pay in New York city between $5 and $6 a ton for anthracite coal, and owing to the shortage of tonnage, for bringing it from New York city to St. John, they pay as high as $5 per long ton freight. When they come to sell by the short ton they have to get $13 or $14 a ton for*it.	.


William Pugsley: They would not pay more for the short ton than for the long ton, surely.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: No, but they buy it by the long ton.


William Pugsley: That brings it to $10 for the long ton, and they sell it 'for $14 per short ton.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: To figure it out, if I remember aright, a short ton of 2,000 lbs. costs the dealer in St. John $12.94. It will be $14 for the long ton and $12.94 for the short ton. That accounts for the high, price of coal in St. John and Halifax.


William Pugsley: How does the minister get $14? He said that they paid $5 per ton for the long ton.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Between $5 and $6.


William Pugsley: That would make $11 for the long ton in St. John.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: They sometimes pay as high as $12. My hon. friend need not quibble about a cent or two a ton. I said that they did not always ibuy it for $5 a ton. I said that they had sometimes to pay as high as $12 in New York. But they get it in New York usually for $5 or $-6 and they pay $5 a ton freight. They do not always pay $5 a ton freight; sometimes they get it for $4. These prices vary. But we are satisfied from the figures we have from the dealers, and the information we have from other sources that the prices they are
charging for coal in St. John are not such as to give them exorbitant profits owing to the abnormal conditions.


William Pugsley: I wish to repeat what I said before that. I do not think the dealers in St. John are charging any exorbitant prices. But the trouble is that the Government have not adopted a policy of building ships and providing transportation. I am glad to hear what the minister has said. The coal dealers in St. John are a very honourable class. But it does seem a dreadful situation that in St. John, facing the anthracite coal fields and with water carriage between -the two, our people should be compelled to pay this high rate. I would almost think the Intercolonial could bring coal down by rail from Quebec, by way of the Quebec Central and the Bangor and International. Now, in regard to cold storage, just one word further-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


William Pugsley: What gentleman says " hear, hear?" Is it the hon. gentleman who tried to stop the committee from working?	-


Donald Sutherland: If the hon. gentleman asks me, I would say that I was trying to encourage him to deal with the question before the committee instead of the dreadful condition he pictured in St. John in regard to coal.


William Pugsley: The hon. gentleman need not grow impatient. I do not wonder that he wants to get the minister away from this question as quickly as possible, but he will not be able to succeed for a moment at all events. In regard to the cold storage question, the Order in Council is so drawn as really to prevent any effective operation. It does not affect sale to the consumer because the consumer has no Tight to buy from the person having goods in cold storage. The person having goods in cold storage sells to the wholesale dealer or to the retail dealer, but not directly to the consumer. Therefore, no matter what the price may be, the ultimate consumer would not have any complaint under this Order in Council. Who is going to proceed against the cold storage warehouse? It is not the retailer, because the higher the price he pays to the warehouseman the higher the price he charges to his customers. If the retail dealer is complained against under this Order in Council, all he has to say is: " I had to pay so much to the warehouseman, his prices were high and I was entitled to a reasonable profit; therefore, there

can be no complaint against me." The retailer is not likely to enter into litigation with the warehouseman because he desires to keep his relations friendly with the person from whom he buys.
All he has to do is to tack on a little higher price to the consumer to meet the extra price that he is paying to the warehouse man or to the wholesale dealer, and so he suffers nothing. He gets a larger price and a considerably greater profit from the family to whom he ultimately sells the goods. All this shows that it is necessary for the Government to take charge of the whole situation, to thoroughly investigate the prices charged by the warehouse men, the quantity of goods kept in stock, the prices which these goods cost before they were put into the warehouse, and to consider what would be a reasonable charge for the warehouse man, and then, through a food controller, to see that these foods reach the consumer at a reasonable and fair price. I have not time to go more fully into the Order in Council, but I am sure one has only to read it to see that the Order in Council itself and the mode in which the Government propose to enforce it are such as are calculated to render the Order absolutely nugatory and incapable of producing the slightest effect in reducing the cost of food.


Médéric Martin: The minister says that he sent a telegram to the mayor of Montreal in February. I think it was at the end of March.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Oh, no.


Médéric Martin: I may be mistaken. And he said that I did not answer it.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I did not say that.


Médéric Martin: I answered the telegram, but I did not send an attorney to Ottawa.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That is what I said.


Médéric Martin: Our attorney said to us that we did not need it, we were asking in that telegram for power to make an inquiry and that is what we did the day after. I believe, if my memory serves me well, that a report of that inquiry was sent to the Government. We found that the trouble in respect to coal was not the fault of the small dealer, but the fault of the big dealer in the city of Montreal. I remember very well that last fall the Board of Commissioners and the council of the city of Montreal passed a resolution asking the Government to place

an embargo on the export of different articles such as potatoes. Potatoes last fall cost $2 to $2.75 a bag, and in the spring they cost $4.50 a bag. We made that request but we received no answer. I think that the only thing to do, and I think this is the duty of the Government, is to follow the example of the United States and to name a commissioner to inquire throughout the entire country into the quantity of the different necessaries of life, and to control the price so that nobody will make an undue profit at the expense of the population. That was the duty of the Government, and that is what the Council and Board of Commissioners of the city of Montreal thought last fall. I was answering a letter written to me, I think by the Department of Agriculture, and I suggested in my letter that the only remedy or possible means to give satisfaction and to reduce the cost of living to the citizens of different cities in Canada was to put an embargo on the export of certain foodstuffs. To that letter, which I signed myself, we received no answer. That was the only course which would have given good results. We had an example about a month ago from the President of the United States. It was the duty of this Government to take similar action long ago. But we know very well that since this Government have been in power they have been the friends of the trusts, and we could never obtain any relief from them.


Mr. LABOR:: Does the Government of the United States control the price of coal in the United States, or has it done anything to control that price?


Médéric Martin: The first thing they did was to name a commissioner on the cost of foodstuffs. When the time comes to look into the question of the price of coal, they will undoubtedly adopt the same course that they have adopted with regard to the cost of foodstuffs.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I inferred from the hon.
gentleman's remarks that they did control the price of coal, and I asked if that were true.


Médéric Martin: I am not informed as to that. But the United States having as President such a man as President Wilson, I am sure they will adopt a similar course. But having such people as we have at the head of our Government, they do nothing at all in support of the big city of Montreal in matters of this kind. You are always working on political lines. That is shown by the question you have

put to the hon. member for Kent (Mr. Mo-Coig), asking him if he would (be willing to recommend a maximum price pf $3 a bag for beans. That means that you try to set the farmer against the citizens of the big city in order to make political capital for the next election-it is nothing else. The country should be administered in the interests of all the people, and the Government should not try to make political capital out of such questions as this in order to get back into power. I do not rise frequently in this House, but you know that you have not done your duty towards labour, not alone in the city of Montreal, but in the whole of Canada. Take the question of increasing Civil Service salaries. You are recommending increased salaries for the big people who are getting $4,000 and $5,000 a year, but when we were asking you to increase the salaries of letter carriers, who get from $750 to $800 a year, you did nothing at all. Who is the man who most needs an increase of salary if it is not the man who is working 365 days a year-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Médéric Martin: -and for whom the cost of living is just the same as it is for the man who gets $5,000. But for him you do nothing.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Médéric Martin: Raise the
point of order and the chairman will decide.


Martin Burrell: I hope I appreciate the remarks of my hon. friend who has just sat down, and I am not disputing, it is not my place to dispute, the sincerity of his motives in discussing the interests of the large number of people in the city of Montreal over whom he officially presides.


Médéric Martin: I was speaking for the people throughout the whole of Canada, not in Montreal alpne.


Martin Burrell: My hon. friend was, of course, speaking more particularly of Montreal. I may say that my conception of the duties of a Government, or of anybody else, in this matter is to look on the question in such a way and to solve it in such a way that the best interests of the consumer are really served while, at the same time, the interests of the producer is served. That may seem a paradox, but I do not believe that this country will ever be on a sound basis if the interests of the consumers are ever considered to an extent that will make it unprofitable for people to go into production. The best thing that can be
done in the interests of the consumer is to make agriculture so productive and profitable a calling that more people will go into it and so increase production. My hon. friend raised a question that I should like to touch on because it illustrates my meaning, the question of potatoes. My hon. friend said that he wrote, I think to me, and he takes the ground-


Médéric Martin: I was answering a letter of the Agricultural Department, I do not know if it was from the minister.


Martin Burrell: My hon. friend takes the ground, and I think a great many people took the ground at that time, that in respect to the mounting price of potatoes, which were getting very high indeed, it was the business of the Government to put an embargo on the exportation of potatoes from Canada to the United States or any other country, or else that they should fix the price at a lower figure than it then was in order that the consumers might have potatoes within their reach. I want to lay this down as a maxim, and I believe it is absolutely true, that if at a time like that, when potatoes were scarce not only here, but equally so in the United States-if anything they were more scarce in the United States because they were 70,000,000 bushels short in the potato crop last year, and Cuba was also very short-we had placed an embargo on the export of potatoes the effect would have been to discourage the growing of potatoes in Canada. The growers in this country had built up, in some years at a very small margin of profit, a large business. The farmers of the province of New Brunswick had gone largely into the potato business and had built up a trade with Cuba and the Untied States which they were trying to increase, and incidentally they were supplying potatoes to consumers in this country as well. Owing not to speculation, but the shortage in United States and Cuba, the price of potatoes went up until it reached $7 a barrel. I believe that it would be a fatal mistake, however, to put an embargo on potatoes unless the necessity were extremely pressing, because the result would be the discouraging of production and a proper resentment on the part of the farmer, who would say:	Last year I raised thousands
of bushels of potatoes and sold them at a loss; this year, when I have a good crop, you deprive me of that profit which would make up for some of the losses which 1 have sustained.


William Pugsley: Did the minister observe any resentment among the farmers of England when the British Government fixed the price of potatoes?


Martin Burrell: They did not fix a maximum price. The British Government have departed from the old established theory of not protecting the farmer. Recognizing that cheap, food at all hazards is not the best thing in the interests of the consumer, they have guaranteed a minimum price of potatoes to the farmer of $30 a ton. I fancy that if the Government had asked the Houee to sanction, a regulation guaranteeing the farmers $30 a ton for their potatoes during two years, my hon. friend would Ibe the first to say that i't was an outrage that the taxpayers should have to make up to the growers $20 a ton when their potatoes were worth only $10 a ton, as they were two years ago.


William Pugsley: Nobody suggests the fixing of an unreasonable price. What has been argued from this side is that the Government at the beginning of the war should have fixed a minimum price for certain number of years in respect of such important foodstuffs1 as wheat and potatoes, which would have given a guarantee to the farmers, and, at the same 'time, a maximum price within which the farmers would have been obliged to sell. That would have been satisfactory to both consumer and producer.


Martin Burrell: The fixing of minimum and maximum prices upon certain commodities is a matter far more complicated and difficult than the hon. gentleman imagines, unless he has given profound study to the question.


William Pugsley: It requires some courage to do it.


Martin Burrell: It is not altogether a question of courage; fools sometimes rush in where angels fear to tread. In Germany they rushed in with maximum prices, and they later had to go back on that policy, because of its tendency to discourage production. In Italy a similar policy also broke down. In England they have not been doing the drastic things that some people think they have been doing. They have made some mistakes. They settled upon two meatless days in each week, but they had to depart from that because of the rush on.bread and cereals. As a rule, countries which have attempted to deal in an arbitrary way with matters affected by
IMr. Burrell. ]
the laws of supply and demand have failed to attain the objects which they set out to accomplish. I believe that it would have been a mistake to place au embargo on potatoes at the time referred to, because it would have had a tendency to discourage production. It was folly for people to eat potatoes, unless they were wealthy, and used them as a luxury, at the high price which that product attained two months ago. It would have been cheaper and more economical to use rice or other commodities. As far as Canada is concerned, it was better that she should have $7 available for productive work in other directions than have a barrel of potatoes. The situation was not so severe, to my mind, as to require such a drastic remedy as the establishment of an embargo. A telegram was read in the House the other day from the Eastern	Townships	that	potatoes couldnot be got at any price, but I had a letter	the other	day	from	a gentleman in	Sherbrooke	who	said	that there
was no difficulty in obtaining potatoes in that district at a reasonable price- about $1.50 a bushel, I think.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: At	this	time the
potatoes will turn bad in three weeks.


Martin Burrell: I am speaking now of the securing of potatoes in ample time for-planting; this letter was received about four weeks ago. I had similar communications from Nova Scotia. One man wrote me that he had purchased 100 bushels for seeding purposes at $1.50 a bushel. This shows that the course suggested would not have been a wise one. Speaking generally, I think that any Government should go slowly in the matter of fixing arbitrary or maximum prices or imposing embargoes. Such courses should not be followed unless the necessities of the case are abundantly clear. My hon. friend referred to the United States. While the United States has appointed a food controller, Mr. Hoover, they have not taken any definite action; they have not even got their legislation through. The Secretary of Agriculture for the United States, with whom I have been in constant touch, kept me informed of all the proposed legislation and all their discussions, which I have followed with a great deal of interest. Mr. Houston himself said in the course of his remarks that he regarded the fixing of minimum and maximum prices as a course so important that it should only be employed as a very last resort. So far from exercising those powers in the United States,

they have not even obtained them. They are asking, however, for very large powers, and rightly so. As my hon. friend says, we are living in abnormal times, and it is well that these powers should be in existence so that the remedy may be available when it is shown to be absolutely necessary under certain conditions. After all, we are all striving for the same thing-not to discourage production. The cost of production has gone up 100, 150 and 200 per cent, and it is vital to the future of Canada that no producer be discouraged in his efforts. At the same time, I know that every member is desirous also of trying to secure the best conditions for the consuming population, who are facing hard times, and to eliminate wild speculation or manipulation-which, I think, does not exist to the extent that some people think it does. In regard to the imposition of these arbitrary measures, any Government should move very slowly if they are going to move at all.


William Pugsley: The minister speaks of the necessity of encouraging the producer. Would he say that this was not more than a reasonable encouragement to a flour manufacturer? I Tead from the statement of the Minister of Finance on page 1957 of Hansard, where he says that the Government tax for the year 1915, when the tax was only 25 per cent of the excess profits, was $380,000 on one milling company. According to that, the excess profits of this flour milling company, after allowing for their earning the usual dividend of 7 per cent on all their investments, would be $1,520,000. Does the minister think that is an ordinary profit which ought to be encouraged? The . minister says that he is informed that the price of potatoes has gone down to $1.50 a bushel. Just the other day in my own oity 'seed potatoes cost $8 per barrel. I bought some seed potatoes for myself, and I have the bill for them.


John Dowsley Reid: A barrel would hold two and one-half or three bushels?


William Pugsley: I think it is two and one-half bushels. The bill was for four barrels of potatoes for seed, $32. That does not confirm the statement of the minister.


Médéric Martin: I have been
informed that speculators are going through the different counties and buying up the crop of potatoes before they are taken out of the earth. If that be the case, the Government should stop that speculating. These speculators are also contracting for supplies of eggs, and they will control the
prices in the fall. The minister says that it is our duty to encourage the farmers; it is not the farmer who received the profit; it is those speculators who start six months ahead and gather in all that the country will grow and then fix the price. That is what is going on in Montreal, and the minister should take note of what I have just said, and if it be true, he should stop that speculation. The minister says that the dealers are now trying to sell the potatoes at $1.50 per bag. They were holding the stock, and would not give us a bushel of potatoes unless we paid $4 a bag. From twenty-five to fifty cars of potatoes were allowed to freeze on the tracks at Montreal because the dealers preferred to have them freeze to lowering the prices. I do not want to throw the blame on the Government, but they should stop this speculation for the coming crop.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I would suggest to the mayor of Montreal that he should follow the example of the mayor of New York, who now, I notice through the press of New York, is offering one dollar per bushel for all the potatoes that can be grown in the state of New York, so that he can sell direct to the consumer in New York potatoes at a reasonable price.


Charles Avila Wilson: That suggestion might apply to the Government.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: That price may seem fairly high, but that is what the mayor of New York is offering. As regards the price of coal, when hard coal is sold in the city of St. John at $14 a ton, but I would like to know, and I have not heard through this discussion, any suggestion as to how this Government can control the price of coal. We buy that coal in the United States, and regardless of what the mayor of Montreal may. say, the Government of the United States have so far not attempted to control the price of coal in that country. I am a very large buyer of coal for manufacturing institutions with which I am connected, in particular one in my own town where we use about five carloads of soft coal a week, and to-day we are advised to buy that coal now and not wait until later to buy it, because, if we do, we shall have to pay a much higher price for it. It costs us 35 cents per ton to deliver soft coal from the mines of Pennsylvania to our town, and that coal is costing us to-day in the neighbourhood of $9 a ton, over $8 anyway. How can this Government control the price and give us our coal cheaper? We used to buy that coal at $2.60 a ton. The price is controlled by the mine owners

of the United States, and the United States Government has not interfered with them in any way so that I cannot see how this Government can be held responsible for the price of coal in Canada. Will the mayor of Montreal or the hon. member for St. John tell us that the local dealers are charging exorbitant prices for coal and making exorbitant profits?


William Pugsley: I do not think any one on this side of the House has argued that the Government can control the cost of coal in the United States, but it has been suggested by some hon. members that the dealers in Montreal and other cities have been charging more than is fair. Whether that is true or not, I do not know; my complaint has always been that the Government ought to build vessels for the coastal trade of Canada.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


William Pugsley: Hon. gentlemen need
not laugh at that. That is a pretty serious matter and ought to be attended to. I only state it because the Minister of Labour said that he would investigate the situation. Before very long, the United States Government will take charge of the coal produced in that country. We, on this side of the House, are arguing that it is the duty of this Government to take control of the necessaries of life, particularly those which are produced in Canada, such as flour


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I think I understood the argument of hon. gentlemen opposite correctly and I understand that they are complaining of the price of coal in Canada. The hon. member for Montreal, St. Mary's (Mr. Martin), complains that in the city of Montreal coal is being sold at too high a price. The hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) has raised the same argument, but at the same time-and I hope it was not on account of the votes of the coal dealers-he said that he did not think that the coal dealers were charging too much.


William Pugsley: I referred to the cost of transportation.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: The price of coal is regulated by the price at the mine and the freight added to that, and I doubt if there is a coal dealer in Montreal to-day who is making over fifty cents or a dollar a ton profit on the coal he. sells. I am not speaking of the coal sold in 25 or 50 pound lots
I think we should be absolutely fair in this House whoever happens to be in power,
[Mr. Lalor.l
and not try to raise questions to influence the minds of the consumers when there is absolutely no reason for it. We have no control over the price of coal at the mines, and hon. gentlemen opposite know that just as well as we do, but the question is being discussed in this House day after day. I agree with the Minister of Agriculture that in order to get our farmers to produce more grain and grow root crops they must be encouraged, and you cannot encourage them by stepping in and controlling prices. I represent a farming constituency, and I believe the farmers of this country are entitled to the world's markets for the products of the farm. It is not all fair sailing for the farmers of this country. How about the thousands of acres of fall wheat that were ploughed up last year and which brought nothing to the farmer? How about the fall wheat in Ontario today that will not show over 50 or 60 per cent of a crop? Farmers are entitled to every cent they can get for the products of their farm.


Mr. McMILLAN:: Does my hon. friend think that they did not get enough for their cheese at 215 cents a pound?


Francis Ramsey Lalor: That is a very good price, but if cheese is worth 25 cents a pound they deserve to get it. They are entitled to the price the world's markets give them for cheese. If you are going to control the product of the farm you must also control the product of the mine and factory, and if you are going to do that you must control wages.


Frank Oliver: You should not have commandeered the wheat.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: Was not the wheat that was commandeered last fall in the elevators and not in the farmers' hands?


Frank Oliver: The farmers owned a great deal of what was in the elevators.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: That is quite contrary to the arguments of other hon. gentlemen opposite who said that the wheat in the elevators belonged to the speculators. The hon. member for Edmonton represents a farming constituency, and he should be the first man in the House to stand up and say a good word for the farmers.
11	p.m. If the prices in this country are not high enough to pay the farmer, the prices must go up.


Médéric Martin: We are going to tax the people for that and we will do it.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I read a statement recently made by Mr. Hoover, controller of food in

the United States, and he is absolutely opposed to fixing a maximum price for food products. He says it has been a failure wherever it has been tried.


William Pugsley: Does he not say that
with proper control prices could be brought down by about 60 per cent?


Francis Ramsey Lalor: In England they do not fix a maximum price but a minimum price, and anything the farmer can get above that minimum he is entitled to; and that is all you can do in this country in fairness to the farmers. I want to be absolutely fair; I do not think there should be an absolute runaway market for the products of the farm, but the farmers are entitled to a fair price for their products. After listening to the arguments in this House day after day I cannot see that a food controller would do much good, or how prices could be brought down, because prices are controlled by the world's markets1.


Médéric Martin: The hon.
member has pointed to the action taken by Mayor Mitchell of New York in regard to potatoes. The Mayor of Montreal has not the same power as the Mayor of New York. Last year I suggested to the Board of control that we should vote $250,000 for the purpose of buying potatoes. We had no right to do that; it was quite illegal, but I was ready to take the responsibility in order to sell potatoes to the consumers at cost price. We did everything that was possible, so my hon. friend need not point to Mayor Mitchell as an example to me. It was illegal for us to take this action, but I thought the legislature would ratify it. The council, however, did not support me.


Martin Burrell: In regard to the potato situation my hon. friend will be glad to know that the high prices this year-and high prices are always a stimulus-have resulted in a greater acreage than last fall. I do not think there is much danger of any one speculating in the crops of the province of Quebec, because that would be an extremely wild type of speculation. I think my hon, friend can be hopeful that the efforts of the farmers and everybody else this year will result in very much more satisfactory conditions.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I understood the minister to state the .potatoes were selling in Nova Scotia at $1.50 a bushel.


Martin Burrell: Yes, near the city of Halifax. I was shown a letter only a week
or so ago in which it was said that over 100 bushels was bought for seed at $1.50.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That must have been an isolated case, because within the last twenty-four hours I have learned that a league has been formed by the citizens of Amherst to go without potatoes in June so that the people may have enough for seeding.


Martin Burrell: We may be thankful that there are enough left for seed. As it is getting late, I would suggest that we pass this item, and that the committee then rise.


Frank Oliver: The statement made by the Minister of Labour as to the information he was gathering with regard to cold storage warehouses was so diffuse and so voluminous that I was not able to gather what he was really doing, and I think we should thoroughly understand just what is being done before this item is passed.
Item stands.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Reid the House adjourned at 11.05 p.m.
Thursday, June 7, 1917.