1917-04-25

RETURNED SOLDIERS.


[Stage Direction]
Sir HERBERT AMES (Montreal, St. Antoine) presented the following Preliminary 
Report of the Special Committee of the House of Commons in reference to the care of and provision for returned soldiers.
The Special Committee, appointed to consider, inquire into and report upon the reception, treatment, care, training and re-education of the wounded, disabled and convalescent returned soldiers of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, in accordance with a resolution adopted by the committee, beg leave to present to the House the following Preliminary Report:
Your Committee, pursuant to the resolution passed by the House on Wednesday, 7th February last, appointing nine members to constitute the Committee, met on the said 7th February, when the following members, namely, Sir Herbert Ames, Hon. Charles Marcil, Hon. F. B. McCurdy, Mr. W. S. Middlebro, Mr. F. F. Pardee, Mr. Duncan C. Ross and Mr. Donald Sutherland were present and elected Sir Herbert Ames as Chairman of the Committee. The Committee at once proceeded to consider what information could be secured regarding existing agencies of assistance given to disabled returned soldiers and instructed the Clerk of the Committee to request the attendance o£ certain gentlemen of the Military Hospitals Commission and of the Militia Department to appear and give evidence before the Committee.
On Thursday, 22nd February, when your Committee again met, the Chairman's attention was directed to what the members of the Committee considered a technical difficulty. Your Committee had not been given, power to send for persons and papers, to report from time to time to adjourn from place to place, to print for the use of the Committee the evidence taken nor could it ask leave to do so owing to the extended adjournment of the House. Obviouslv, there was but one course to follow in order to conform strictly with the rule. All nine members present considered that the inquiry was urgent and that it was the undoubted desire of the House that the Committee should hold immediate sessions. Your Committee thereupon resolved to proceed with the inquiry as if it had been granted leave by the House to send for persons and papers, to report from time to time, to adjourn from place to place and to print for the use of the Committee the evidence taken. Notwithstanding this, your Committeee, during the adjournment, has held ten business sessions at which important testimony was given and statements and papers were submitted by representatives of Returned Soldiers' Associations, Provincial Soldiers Aid Commissions, Military Hospitals, Convalescent Homes and Benevolent Societies from every province of the Dominion. Four sessions were held in Ottawa, two in Montreal and four in Toronto. The inquiry, n respect to the first matter of reference, is almost terminated so far as the hearing of evidence is concerned, and your Committee willbeable to present to the House an Interim Report in the course of three or four weeks.
Your Committee therefore recommends to the House the desirability of ratifying the action of the Committee in having proceeded with the inquiry as if the House had granted to the Committee, at the time of its appointment, the various powers and authorities above mentioned, and the Committee further recommends that such powers and authorities be granted for the future work of the Committee, and in addition thereto, that the Com-

raittee be empowered to sit while the House is in session.
All of which, is respectfully submitted.
Sir HERBERT AMES moved:: That the recommendations contained in the Preliminary Report of the Committee on Returned Soldiers be concurred in, and the action of the Committee in exercising certain powers and authorities referred to in the report, notwithstanding the fact that such powers and authorities were not given in the original appointment of the Committee, be approved and ratified, and that the said Committee is hereby empowered to send for persons and papers, to report from time to time, to adjourn from place' to [DOT] place, to print the evidence taken before the Committee; and that the Committee be authorized to sit while the House is in session.


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Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Statistics of Express Companies for the year 1915-Hon. Mr. Cochrane.

Mr. COCHRANE moved:: That the names of Messrs. Hartt, Weichel and Bradbury be substituted1 for those of Messrs. Crothers, Fowler and Sir Herbert Ames on the special committee to whom was referred Bill No. 13, an Act to consolidate and amend the Railway Act, and also that the name of Mr. Macdonald (Pictou) be added to the said committee.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: With your
leave, Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Government whether or not an Order in Council was passed during the recess fixing the price of paper to be supplied by manufacturers to publishers, and, if so, whether the Order in Council will be brought down to the House.


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: An Order in
Council has been passed giving the Minister of Customs authority to fix the price of newsprint paper in Canada. The purpose of the Order was to provide an adequate supply of newsprint paper at reasonable prices to the publishers of newspapers. The Order to which I refer was not to become effective until gazetted. It provided that newsprint papers could only be exported by license. That Order was not gazetted, because, upon taking the matter up with the manufacturers of newsprint paper, an arrangement was reached whereby they made a fixed mill price and by
reason of that action it was not thought necessary to enforce the Order in Council. Subsequently, in order to meet a situation which developed, a further Order in Council was passed; under the provisions of which the Minister of Customs was authorized to fix the price of newsprint paper sold in Canada, and an officer of the Government was authorized, if necessary, to take possession of supplies of newsprint paper required by newspaper publishers throughout Canada and to sell at a price fixed by the minister, and distribute to Canadian newspapers. If my Rt. Hon. friend desires that both Orders should be brought down I shall be very glad to lay them upon the Table in due course.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is a very important action, and I imagine it should have been communicated to Parliament as soon as Parliament convened. It is practically amending the tariff, and I should expect the minister to be kind enough to. bring down these papers, the first Order in Council, the agreement with the manufacturers and publishers, and the second Order-in Council.


William Thomas White: There is no written agreement between the Government and the manufacturers.


Wilfrid Laurier: There is an agreement between the manufacturers and the publishers, as I understood.


William Thomas White: An understanding was reached whereby $2.50 was fixed as the mill price. I am not aware that there is any written agreement between the manufacturers of news print paper and the newspaper publishers of Canada, but the manufacturers agreed among themselves to fix a price of $2.50 at the mill to supply the Canadian newspaper publishers who have been their customers.


Wilfrid Laurier: As a consequence of the first Order in Council which was passed but not gazetted, and which was not to come into force until it was gazetted, an agreement of some kind was made between the manufacturers themselves or between the manufacturers and publishers. The Government must have had communication of that agreement.


William Thomas White: The communication which the Government had was that the price had been fixed at $2.50 at the mill, and we did not gazette the Order in Council or proceed further because that price had been fixed. The fixing of the price depended
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on the passing of the Order in Council whose object was to secure to the Canadian publishers of newspapers an adequate supply of news print at a reasonable price.


Wilfrid Laurier: Do I understand that the Government have not a copy 'Of this document in their archives?


William Thomas White: We have no document evidencing an agreement between the manufacturers themselves or between them and the newspaper publishers; but we have what I shall be very glad to bring down, the Order in Council which I have mentioned.


Wilfrid Laurier: The rest was hearsay.	.


William Thomas White: I am not sure whether there was a letter in which it was stated that the price had been fixed at $2.50 at the mill. If there is such a letter I shall bring that down too. It was verbally communicated to me by the President of the Pulp and Paper Association that the price of $2.50 had been fixed. That price having been fixed, it was not necessary to gazette the Order in Council.



QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.

Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	What were the causes of the dismissal of Captain E. Angers, who had charge of the Government steamer "VerchSres"?
2.	Was there any investigation held?


Mr. REID:: 1.	Incompetence.
2.	No, although the department has agreed to grant him one if he wishes it.


GOVERNMENT RAILWAYS-PURCHASE OF CARS.
Mr. GRAHAM:: How many freight, passenger, and sleeping cars respectively, have been purchased for the Canadian Government Railways In the United States since January 1, 1916?


Francis Cochrane: Since January 1, 1916, five hundred coal cars, fifty sleeping cars; ten dining cars, eighteen tourist, twenty-three first class, two baggage and two mail and express cars have been purchased for Canadian Government railways in the United States.


INLAND REVENUE OFFICERS MONTREAL.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	How many new officers have been appointed by the Inland Revenue Department at Montreal since the 1st of January, 1916?
2.	What are the names and salaries of each permanent and temporary officer so appointed?


Mr. SEVIGNY:: 1. 10.
2. Permanent: Dr. A. A. Bernard, $1,800; J. Brunet, $1,200. Temporary: J. E. Parent, $100; A. P. Simard, $800; G. Normandin, $900; A. Parent, $100-; A. Perreault, $500; J. Macduff, $900; J. Paquin, $1,200; J. L, Laflamme, $800.
A. Parent, appointed to replace J. E. Parent whose services were dispensed with. Dr. A. A. Bernard to replace Inspector Archambault who died. A. Perreault, to replace Miss M. L. Perreault during her illness. A. P. Simard was employed from July 3 to December 3, 1916, and left the service since.


INLAND REVENUE DEPARTMENT APPOINTMENTS.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: How many officers were appointed in connection with the Department of Inland Revenue, both inside and outside service, in 1916?


Mr. SEVIGNY:: Inside service, 8; outside service, 58; total, 66.
Nineteen of the above have replaced other officers. One inside permanent officer resigned. One inside temporary officer resigned. Thirteen outside temporary officers whose services were dispensed with during the year. Four have been appointed on commission; 5 appointed as technical officers; 5 returned soldiers; 18 appointed throughout the Dominion for the different services of the department; total, 66.


DUNCAN J. CAMPBELL.
Mr. CRUISE:: 1.	Does Duncan J. Campbell, of Macleod, Alberta, hold a position in the Government service?
2.	If so, when was he appointed, and what is his salary?


Mr. PATENAUDE:: 1.	Mr. Duncan J. Campbell, of Macleod, Alberta, is a secret service agent in the employ of the Royal North West Mounted Police.
2.	He was engaged on October 28, 1914, at $75 per month and expenses, which amount was increased to $100 per month in February, 1915.


TRENT CANAL WHARVES.
Mr. BURNHAM:: Will the Government inform this House which department is in charge of the maintenance, custody and repair of certain wharves at points along the western shore of the Otonobee (Trent) river between lock seven and Rice Lake on the Trent Canal?


Francis Cochrane: No department of the Government is in charge of the maintenance, custody and repair of the wharves in question as these structures are situated upon municipally owned lands.


JAMES LOVETT.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Was James Lovett dismissed from the Department of Marine and Fisheries at Halifax, N.S., for acts of partisanship?
2.	If so, what were said acts of partisanship, and when were they committed?


Mr. REID:: 1 and 2. Yes. The information with respect to his dismissal will be brought down in reply to a notice of motion now on the Order Paper.


WOMAN SUFFRAGE.
[Stage Direction]
On the Order Notices of Motion:
Mr. PUGSLEY:: Is there any reason for further delay in proceeding with the Notice which stands in my name providing for the granting of the franchise to women?


William Thomas White: The subject matter of this resolution is of great importance. It is not of immediate urgency as the question of the franchise is not before the House. I asked my hon. friend the other day if he would be good enough to let this stand because it is a matter of great importance involving a question of policy, and as the Prime Minister spoke to a somewhat similar resolution, I think in the early part of last session, it would seem to me not only expedient but courteous to allow the matter to stand until his return. I am sure that my hon. friend will be willing to agree to that. He will be given an opportunity of bringing forward and discussing his motion; in other words, he will be in precisely the same position as he is to-day. I have asked the hon. member for South Oxford (Mt. Sutherland) to allow his motion also to stand.
Motion stands.


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
Mr. MACDONALD:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, reports and other papers and documents relative to the application, of Willis Keizer of Hall's Harbour, King's County, N.S., for a license to operate a fishing weir at Square Cove, King's County, N.S.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, recommendations and other documents applying for or having reference to the position of Postmaster at Charlottetown, P.E.I., together with a copy of all replies sent by the Government or the Post Office Department to such applications and recommendations.


Mr. E. LAPOINTE:: For a copy of all documents, papers, correspondence and reports concerning' the suspension of Polydore Lebel, engineer on the Intercolonial Railway at Riviere d.u Loup, as a result of a wreck in the year 1916.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR A RETURN.
Mr. TURRIFF:: 1.	How many members of the House of Commons are serving or have served in the Canadian Army?
2.	What are the names of each of said members, the date of appointment, and rank?
3.	What are the names of those members who have resigned or have withdrawn from military service and) the date of withdrawal or resignation?
4.	How much has been paid to each for military salary, expenses and separation allowance to wife or relatives, respectively?


GOVERNMENT RAILWAYS-PROMOTION OF EMPLOYEES.
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Mr. Hermenegilde Boulay (Rimouski) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, the employees on the Government railway should he promoted to official positions on that line before allowing the General Manager to employ strangers.
Mr. H. BOULAY (Rimouski) (Translation) :: Mr. Speaker, I gladly take advantage of the presence of the Minister of Railways here tonight to call attention to certain facts connected with the management cf the Intercolonial. At every session of Parliament, I have reluctantly to revert to the same subject. This year, as nothing was done to remedy a situation which I consider defective, I must again take up the question, the more willingly because the minister is here present to hear what I have to say in criticism of that management. The main grievance relates to the unfair treatment meted out to old employees of the road-they are government employees-in the matter of promotion. Since I have the honour to sit in this House, I always heard it claimed by ministers who have charge of the several departments that they made it their duty to promote officials according to each one's deserts and as a reward for his zeal in the performance of his duties. Now, I am sorry to see a different policy has prevailed in the case of the Intercolonial and other Government railways since our party came into power. True it is that the liberal party -gentlemen on the left can take their med-

icine- set a poor example during the few years they were in charge. During the liberal regime, we had to fight the same abuses; but the remissness of the late Government towards old officials is no excuse why we on this side should adopt a similar policy.


Mr. GAUVREAU (Translation):: You
would be' quite at a loss to point to any specific cases.


Herménégilde Boulay: I recall immediately a
man by the name of Russell who was im' ported by the liberal party, and also one McGovern, both of whom were most objectionable men. There are many others whose names I do not recall, but if the hon. member for Temiscouata should insist, I might supply him with the list not later than to-morrow.
I have no fault to find with the general manager, Mr. Gutdlius, as regards his courtesy, civility, manners and his general ability as manager of the Intercolonial. But even admitting his fitness for the position, of which I have no doubt, yet it must be said old officials of the Intercolonial could have been found fully competent to fill this post. But no complaints have as yet been heard. If Mr. Gutelius's appointment as head manager had been the only one of the kind, if instead of strangers being brought in to fill the vacancies, old employees had received promotion, or again had those strangers once appointed given satisfaction, I should keep silent and admit that the appointments were made in the public interest. But facts point to a different conclusion. Last year, it may be remembered, or perhaps is it two years ago, I voiced a complaint against Mr. Devonish who had been .appointed superintendent at Campellton notwithstanding my protests. At the time of the appointment, my adverse attitude was commended; Mr. Devonish had been imported from another country, Ireland, I believe; at any rate, he certainly had never been previously on the staff of that railway. As superintendent he was a dismal failure. All winter the trains were snowbound on the Intercolonial between Mont-Joli and Campbellton due to Mr. Devonish being absolutely unacquainted with the road, on which he had never been employed, and with the climate of the country. No more incompetent person could have been secured for the position. Fortunately last winter his place has been taken by an old Intercolonial railwayman who had twenty-five to thirty years' experience and who is proof how much better service can be obtained by promoting employees than

by filling vacancies with outsiders. Not-withstand that the past winter was very severe, trains were operated regularly on the Mont-Joli-Campbellton section. There have been delays of course, but no complaints were heard regarding the inefficiency of the management as in the previous year.
Another remark concerns the men on the Campbellton-Mont-Joli division as well as all the employees of the road.
It just comes to me that the hon. member for Temiscouata asked for names. He must recall Mr. Brady who was brought in by the late government and who did not prove to be one of the very clever men.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: He did better at any rate than your Mr. Gutelius, of whom you complain.
M. BOULAY: Mr. McNeillie was another general superintendent selected from the staff of the Canadian Pacific. What practical acquaintance did he have with the Intercolonial, to warrant his being appointed general manager from Halifax to Montreal? He was a very nice man, very courteous and polite, but could not old employees be found just as civil and competent? Some twenty superior officials come from the Canadian Pacific and the Grand Trunk railways; they hold positions which could have been filled as effectively by Intercolonial railwaymen. What ambition can there be in a man who starts at the bottom rung, as an operator or switchman, if he knows that the authorities have no intention of promoting him as a reward for his good work?
I complained also on different occasions that for the last forty-five years that part of the line that crosses the counties of Ri-mouski and especially Matane is operated by men from New-Brunswick. I made many attempts to obtain redress, but to this day I have always been unable to persuade the Intercolonial management that this section should be handled by men from the province of 'Quebec. The late Government should have understood that it was unfair that matters pertaining to the province of Quebec be always controlled by people from other provinces. Are not the men on the Montreal-Mont-Joli section quite competent? Why is the Mont-Joli-Moncton section kept under the management of men who do not speak French and seem to make it a point not to understand the language? It would be easy to create a new division from Montreal to Campbellton, as I often advocated, and to appoint one or two super-

intendents, if necessary, who would have charge of the whole line in the province of Quebec. I am again referring to the section between Mont-Joli and 'Campbellton which comprises 105 miles, of which only twelve run into New Brunswick. Why should that whole section be operated, by New Brunswickers, when only twelve miles of the line run into their province? Such a practice is unfair to the French-Canadian patrons of the road, a large number of whom do not speak English. They have to deal with superintendents, freight agents and yard masters who cannot understand them. Why persist in allowing such grievances to exist when by a mere stroke of the pen the whole situation could be remedied to everyone's satisfaction. My contention is borne out by the fact that Mr. Gutelius has transferred the train despatches of the Levis Riviere-du-Loup section to Levis, and the Levis train despatchers run the section from Levis to Riviere-du-Loup, while the train despatchers of the Riviere-du-Loup section run the section from Rivi-ere-du-Loup to Mont Joli, and the Mont Joli-Campbellton section is run by the New Brunswick office to Campbellton, that is to say backwards. Now the division from Riviere-du-Loup to Montreal is operated from Levis, while that from Riviere-du-Loup to Mont Joli is operated from Riviere-du-Loup and from Mont Joli to Campbellton the line is controlled from the New Brunswick office at Campbellton. Can anything be more unfair? Why is it persisted in? Is it that I have the honour to represent the county of Rimoueki-Ma-tane, or in order to cause annoyance to the employees? I hope my words this year will be heard and the situation remedied. The *train despatcher's office at Campbellton could just as easily be located at Mont-Joli. It would be to the benefit of the road, as those in charge would be familiar with the line and the people they would have to deal with, while the Campbellton men know nothing of the road, the slopes and the weather conditions along the line. I am quite .aware that the latter men would not find the transfer to Mont-Joli congenial, but after all it is not of our making if they do not understand the two languages as we do, and if they are not satisfied they are always at liberty to remain in New Brunswick, to which province they rightly belong.
I would like to call attention to another grievance which constantly entails friction and animosities between the two races. Instead of fomenting troubles, every one of us should strive in his own sphere to eliminate any cause of disagreement. Thus when
French-Canadian applicants are called upon to pass examinations for brakemen or firemen, those examinations should be conducted in French as on the other western divisions. But it is not done. If a man from Rimouski or Matane applies for such a position, he passes his examination at Campbellton before examiners who do not understand French and who, when they are so-minded, put all kinds of difficulties in the way of the candidate and cause him to fall out with hie representative in Parliament and renounce his own party. Such is the case. I asked Mr. Gutelius to have the applicants examined in French, either at Riviere-du-Loup or Levis. I hope this small favour will be granted. Such grievances are easy of redress if you only set about doing it. All kinds of petty means are taken to bring about the failure of the candidates. After being examined at Camp-bellton on the "Standard Rules" which are printed only in English, when there should be copies in both languages, they are sent to Moncton to be examined on colours. If the members of this House knew how many colours the applicants are called upon to distinguish, some hundred of them, they would be surprised at the possible extent of human stupidity. The colours are placed before them and they are asked to explain the difference between the different shades. It seems to me that the colours in use on railways are not so complicated; why not stick to the three colours used, red, green and white? Why require them to distinguish between all the colours of the rainbow? If, perchance, the unfortunate applicant mentions the French name of a colour placed before him, he is refused and sent back home. I wish to apprise the House of those facts, so that the members may understand to what length these vexations go. I was a railwayman myself for some time and know all about it. An examination is also made of the eyesight. I always thought that normally a man sees with both eyes; but the candidate is asked to read with his left hand or his right hand over one eye. If he cannot read with one eye closed, he is not accepted. I know many people who cannot read with only one eye, and yet read quite well with both? Where is the man who does not constantly make use of both eyes? Those minutiae it seems to me, are ridiculous and merely a source of annoyance to the applicant. Why not examine him with both his eyes open and see whether he is short sighted or not.
For some years past I advocated the employment of French-Oanadians on the dining cars, especially from Campbellton to Mont-

real. Something has been done as a result, but we have not yet obtained complete justice. All winter, while the local and express services were suspended, a dining-car was run between St. Leonards and Montreal, and not one single man on the car understood French; meanwhile, the French-speaking waiters were kept on the Nova-Scotia and New-Brunswick divisions, where a knowledge of French on the dining-cars is not requisite.
I must also take exception to the cancelling of the local train during a part of the winter. On the Campbellton-Moneton division, although the number o>f passengers is not more than a quarter of what it is in my county, a local service was kept up all winter. From Riviere-du-Loup to Levis, the train was run as usual, but from Riviere-du-Loup to Campbellton it was cancelled,
' although it is one of the best paying parts of the line. The train was resumed again only lately.
Those are small grievances which are such as to provoke unnecessarily a part of the population and one wonders how it is that a part of the province of Quebec is thus unfairly dealt with when another section is well treated.
A few years ago what are called the "Standard Rules" were contrived. Well, I have a lot of experience with railway rules and when a knowledge of the Standard Rules was required of applicants, I refrained from criticism because I wished to examine them first. All I have to say is that they have been in force for the last two years and they have proven a real failure. They put the life of passengers in jeopardy and cause much annoyance to the railwaymen themselves by placing most of the responsibility for the running of the train on the conductor. Instead of giving him instructions, as was done before, to meet another train at a particular point, he is simply told that such a passenger train is so many hours late. The unfortunate conductor must at each station make a computation to see if a train running behind him or in the opposite direction will reach him at any particular siding. It is nothing but computation and worry and the conductor can scarcely hear the strain. I fail to see why this system was adopted, because it makes the position unbearable for the train employees and endangers the lives of the travelling public. A mistake in the number of hours a train is late may result in a collision.
Now what about the medical examination and the medical examiners for the Superannuation Fund of the Intercolonial? Here

again the French-Canadians are submitted to gross discrimination. The employees on the Montreal-Mont-Joli division are required to repair to Moncton to be examined by physicians who do not speak a word of French. The applicants have to get interpreters and often return without having obtained satisfaction. Why not appoint a practitioner from the province of Quebec who could do the work as well as the Moncton doctors. It is a small matter and putting it right would satisfy the people. This is one of the grievances, and the employees on the Intercolonial suffer grievances, as they have proven by their vote at the last election.
The French-Oanadians in the province of Quebec labour under another disadvantage. I often had occasion to call at the public offices of the Intercolonial at Moncton and, except Mr. Melan^on, not one of of the employees speak both languages although there are twenty-five to thirty high officials who are paid fairly big salaries, judging from the list I shall give out. There are many in the province of Quebec who would willingly accept the remuneration. Here are some of the salaries paid to heads of departments: E. P. Gutelius, general manager, $00,000; Superintendent of Car Service, $200 monthly; Alward, General Solicitor, $5,000.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: The latter was brought from Ottawa to replace Mr. Caron.


Herménégilde Boulay: Quite likely. C. B. Brown, Chief Engineer, $6,000; Shannon, Comptroller and Treasurer, $5,000; Story, General Freight Agent, $416.66 monthly; Allen, General Baggage Agent, $126 per month; Joughins, Superintendent of Motive Power, $400 per month.
The member for Temiscouata might take note that this man was appointed by his own party.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: You cannot say he is unfit; he is one of the best men on the Intercolonial.


Herménégilde Boulay: Possibly; I am not discussing his ability; he is not a French-Canadian. C. E. Smith, Master Car Builder, $3,600; Apppleton, General Master Mechanics, $3,600; Simpson, General Fuel Agent, $3,600; W. R, Devonish, Superintendent, $275 per month. There are others, but I do not wish to take all the time of the House. All those big salaries go to men who do not come from the province of Quebec and none of whom understand a single word of French. Here is room, it seems, for improvement,

if it were desired to treat us fairly, I called lately in an office at Monoton, where twelve men were employed, and not one spoke French, except a young stenographer. To my question whether she earned more than the others, she replied that she had the smallest salary. Does it not eeem that an employee speaking both languages should in justice receive higher pay than any who can use only one language, especially when the knowledge of French is apt to help an important section of the public, such as the French-speaking population of Canada?
I shall not speak any longer to the resolution; but I hope the Minister of Railways will heed my remarks and prove he understands their capital importance by giving justice to the French element in Canada. If you wish to encourage the present members of the Civil Service, the best plan is to adapt a system of promotions. I had occasion now and then to recommend certain employees for promotion; the answer came back from Moncton, without the applicants being examined or even when the authorities knew nothing of them: " the men you recommend are not competent." Here is a case in point. I complained again t the appointment on the division of the Intercolonial in which my constituency is comprised of a man by the name of Bovard who had been dismissed from the Transcontinental because he could not speak French. I remonstrated that we had no use for the man and that the position should have been given to a man from my district; I suggested two names; those two men were quite competent, with twenty years' experience, being qualified even to be superintendents; but my recommendation was turned down, without the men being known or being examined; I believe the Minister himself wrote to me: "Your men are not competent". It is the stereotyped answer when French-Canadians apply for positions of some importance. I submit those facts to the House, and especially to the attention of the Minister of Railways, if he cares in the least to deal fairly by the people of the Province of Quebec.
Hon. WILLIAM PUG8LEY (St. John): Mr. Speaker, in the resolution which the bon. member for Rimoueki (Mr. Boulay) has presented to the House there is a great deal that is deserving of support. From what I have heard of the hon. gentleman's administration of the patronage of his county, as well as in adjoining counties, I do not wonder that the Minister of Railways sometimes feels * rather reluctant to
agree to his recommendations, and I can well understand that the minister may sometimes do an injustice to people along the line of the Intercolonial railway
4 p.m. just because of th'e persistent and sometimes unfair pressure brought to bear on him by the hon. gentleman I say this particularly because I know the activities of the hon gentleman have not been confined to his own constituency, but that on more than one occasion he has come down into the province of New Brunswick and tried to take away from men whn may fairly be entitled to some voice with the minister any influence they may have. The hon. gentleman's influence extends through the county of Rimouski and into the county of Mada-vaska, and I do not know, without knowledge of all the circumstances, that I can very much blame the Minister of Railways for not paying special attention to the representations of the hon. gentleman who has moved this motion; but at the same time, I think the Minister of Railways ought to give some consideration to the special question raised by this resolution. Although I do not quite agree with its terms, with the [DOT]spirit of it I entirely agree. Thie resolution states':
That, in the opinion of this House, the employees on the Government railway should be promoted to official positions on that line before allowing the General Manager to employ strangers.
In the management of any large business, whether it is the business of a railway or a commercial oi manufacturing business, that is a principle which might well be adhered to. Take for instance the [DOT]Canadian Pacific Railway Company, which perhaps ought to be the model for railway [DOT]management, although it may not be just and proper to put that railway company [DOT]ahead of the Grand Trunk, because the [DOT]management of the Grand Trunk has been exceedingly good; I understand it is a principle on those railroads that when a young man enters one of their offices, even in a humble capacity, [DOT]he can, if he attends to his duties, [DOT]look forward to the time when he [DOT]may occupy the position of superintendent of the line or even a higher position. The [DOT]same is true in the United States in the case of great manufacturing companies like the Bethlehem Steel, where some forty thousand people are employed. A boy who enters the employment of that company merely as a messenger boy can look forward with hope and confidence to the time when he

may occupy a position of great responsibility. It is the same with the Armours, -who employ between thirty and forty thousand people, and with other big concerns in the United States, and that is the only way to ensure loyalty on the part of the employees of any great company. In the case of the Intercolonial Railway, however, since this Government have come into office, the heads of the employees have been cut off almost indiscriminately. First it is the Board of Management who are deprived of their positions; then it is the engineer of permanent way, a splendid official, one who has given years of service to the Intercolonial, but who, without reason, is dismissed, and a gentleman from another railroad, -Who had never before been connected with the Intercolonial, is brought in to take his place. The same is true with regard to the general traffic manager. Although he had given satisfaction to the public and discharged his duties faithfully, he is dismissed by this Government and another gentleman is brought in from another railroad to fill his position. So you might take the cases of gentlemen occupying positions of responsibility in which they had served *the public and the country well, who have been dismissed without rhyme or reason and strangers brought in to take their places. That is not the proper method; of managing a great railroad. I am told by gentlemen who are familiar with the condition of affairs at Moncton that many of the old employees do not know to-day whether or not, when they wake up to-morrow, they will still be in the employ of the Intercolonial, there being no security of employment. The result is that the feeling of loyalty amongst the employees is destroyed, their ambition is crushed, they are prevented from giving the highest service which a man is capable of giving to his employer, and the consequence is that the service on the railroad is very much impaired. The Minister of Railways apparently trusts everything to Mr. Gutelius, but he ought to look into this matter himself. I have nothing to say against Mr. Gutdlius, personally, but I claim that he is no better than the men v>ho have been discharged to make room for him. I am told that he brought into the Intercolonial a number of American citizens, some men from Ontario, some from the Grand Trunk, and some from the Canadian Pacific. I am told that even typists and ordinary clerks are brought in from other railroads or other parts of the Dominion to take positions on the Intercolonial at Moncton, and instead 
,of these positions being given to those who are already employed and who have given good service, the latter are passed over and others taken in to fill the places that properly belong to these older employees. Has the operation of the Intercolonial been such as to be approved by the public? I submit not. From my observations, I do not believe the management of the Intercolonial was ever so bad as it is to-day. During the past winter there was scarcely a week in which the newspapers had not an account of a wreck on the Intercolonial.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Scarcely a day.


William Pugsley: What excuse is there
fpr wrecks? Is not the reason that somebody has neglected his duty, that somebody has been guilty of an oversight or want of care? Is it not because there is not that devotion to duty amongst the employees of the Intercolonial which there would be if the same system that is pursued in regard tp employment of officials on other railrpads were pursued in regard to the employees of the Intercolonial? The history of the Intercolonial during the past winter has been a history of mismanagement, neglect, destruction of property and inconvenience to the travelling public. I cannot speak of what the roadbed is like in all the sections of the Dominion through which that railway passes, but I know that on quite a number of occasions trains have left the track on account of broken rails. The other day, within three miles of the city of St. John, a suburban train ran off the track and the passengers had to walk into the the city. That is only one instance of inconvenience to passengers which are occurring on the Intercolonial railroad and which are an evidence of want of care on the part of the management. These things would not occur with proper oversight and care, and it would almost seem as if under the management of the 'Intercolonial it isa question of balancing lpss of life and accident to passengers and employees against the cost which will be incurred by managing the road efficiently and seeing that proper service is obtained from those-who are employed on the line.
With regard to train accommodation, the Intercolonial has now been in operation for a great many years between Montreal, St. John, Halifax, the Sydneys and all parts of Nova Scotia, and I declare to you, Sir, that the service has never within my recollection been so unsatisfactory as it is now. In former years there was some en-

couragement given to travel between the great commercial city of St. John and points on the north shore of the province. The people of St. John were also encouraged to travel to Quebec and Montreal by the Intercolonial, with which road we had direct connection at Moncton. But to-day that is all done away with, and apparently no attention is paid to the comfort or convenience of people who wish to travel from St. John to the north shore of the province or to Quebec and Montreal. Any one leaving St. John for the north shore or for Quebec has to take a local train to Moncton, and wait there from one to three hours until he can catch a train going to the north or to Quebec, and the same thing applies on the return journey. No attention whatever is paid now to the comfort and convenience of the travelling public. Formerly we used to have a very good suburban service on the Intercolonial, but when I was down at St. John recently I found that that had all been changed, and to-day the suburban service from the country districts ipto the city of St. John is not much better than it was twenty years ago; it is certainly not as good as it was a couple of years ago, or even last year. These changes for the worse seem to have been made without any reason. I do not intend to take up any time in elaborating these just grounds for public complaint, as other hon. gentlemen will no doubt speak on this motion, and my hon. friend from Moncton will be able to Speak of conditions in his district with more knowledge than I. I am simply voicing the complaints which are made in the portion of the province from which I come, and pointing o-ut that the universal sentiment of the people is that there is no excuse for the want of accommodation, no excuse for the lack of regard to the comfort and convenience of the travelling public, and no excuse for the many disastrous wrecks that have occurred during the past year. I do not blame the minister for that, except in this sense; he ought to give personal attention to these matters. That is what a minister is for, it seems to me, to give personal attention to the management of the great interests which are confided to his care. I do not know whether the Minister of Railways gives these matters his personal attention or not. If he does, and still allows these things to go on, he is greatly to blame, and if he does not, he is to blame for leaving the management so entirely in the hands of the General Manager of the Intercolonial. I am going to support this motion of my 'hon. friend from
Rimouski (Mr. Boulay) because the spirit of it is good, though I would alter two or three words if I had the amending of it. But perhaps the minister will agree to an amendment himself, which will meet with the views of the House. This is a resolution which ought to be passed. The people of this country have a right to expect the Intercolonial to be managed just as any great railway company is managing its Tailway. It should be managed in such a way as to secure loyalty and the best possible service from its employees, and to prevent the gross injustice which has been done to the employees of this great railroad system in the past few years under the management of the present Minister of Railways and the gentleman whom he brought in from outside to occupy the responsible position of General Manager.


Mr. JOHN STANFIELD (Colchester):: My name has been 'before the public more or less during the last few months in connection with this matter, and I wish to correct certain statements that have appeared in the newspapers of the country. I am sorry to say that the papers that are supposed to be friendly to me have magnified the incident in which my name was mentioned, and have made statements that were inqorrect. A statement was sent out to the press from this House last Thursday or Friday night in connection with what the Minister of Railways had said in regard to some remarks made by my brother in the local House, and, according to this report, the Minister of Railways said that he did not know and did not care. I have consulted Hansard, and have spoken to the members who were sitting next to the minister when he was speaking, and I find that this newspaper report is absolutely false.


Mr. CARVELL:: Stand by the minister.


John Stanfield: I will stand by what is fair and square, but will oppose him or any one else when I think it is right to do so. What I wish to say is this: Some hon. members on this side of the House, as well as on the other, were under the impression that I was trying to dictate to the Minister of Railways and the General Manager of Government Railways that a certain man should be promoted to a vacancy on the Intercolonial. I do not think that I have any right to dictate; I might suggest whom they might promote. But I say that we have as good men in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick as can be obtained anywhere else; they have proved themselves to be so.

All I need do is to point to Mr. McDougall, General Manager oi the Dominion Coal Company, who has been promoted step by step from boy to general manager, and has made good. In his speech yesterday, the junior member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) referred to a constituency in Nova Scotia as to which he said the people did not know whether it was represented in this Parliament or not. If he was alluding to the county of Colchester, I can tell him that the people of that county are well satisfied with the way they are being represented, and they do know that they are being represented here at the present moment. I am not saying this boastfully; I am simply stating what I know to be a fact.
Before taking my seat I should like to correct the statement of the hon member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley), who said that this passenger agent was discharged. He was not discharged, but superannuated, and Mr. Malanson, Assistant Passenger Agent, was appointed in his place and has made good. I will say this for Mr. Hayes of the Intercolonial Bailway:	as far as I know,
he has not brought in a single man from another road to fill a vacancy on the Intercolonial, tout has promoted men from the ranks, and I am sure that if Mr Guteliue will follow the same policy in his management of the road, and will promote the men we have in New Brunswick and Novia Scotia, a better spirit will prevail amongst the employees of the road.


William Pugsley: Were not the Chief
Engineer and the General Traffic Manager tooth brought in from outside?


John Stanfield: Yes. I would support this motion if after the word "railway" were inserted the words "when qualified."


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not know whether to congratulate the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Stanfield) or the Minister of Bail-ways on the rapprochement that has taken place between them. They are both gentlemen for whom hon. members on this side of the House have a very high regard. I know I am speaking the sentiments of my colleagues around me when I say we are delighted to see that the hatchet has been buried, and that they are now able to live together in peace and harmony, and the [DOT]Chief Whip of the Conservative party resuming the place he has filled so worthily for the past five years. But I am at a loss to know exactly where he stands. His conclusions are all right, however. He could

vote for this motion provided a reasonable amendment were added, and I hope he will vote for it. But I must say I am rather disappointed in the hon member for Colchester, that he takes so much back water as he does. I thought he would make a [DOT]stronger fight.


William Pugsley: He is .somewhat subdued.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: He is getting along
fairly well, but I must say he is not measuring up to the standard he at first set for himself, he is not fulfilling the expectations formed of him by the people generally. He made a start some months ago, and was determined to show up the mismanagement of the Intercolonial. Well, it was a good start anyway.
If it is necessary to go to Ontario, or to the West, or to the United States, to find a man to act as superintendent or head of a department of the Intercolonial, the conclusion seems inevitable that there is not much brains left among the employees of the Intercolonial. But there is hardly a railway in Canada that has not in its employ men who were trained on the Intercolonial and who are making good. Go to the United States, go to Western Canada, and you will find former Intercolonial men engaged in all departments of the great railways, and making good everywhere.
The great trouble with the Intercolonial is that it is being run on no principle whatever. The Minister of Bailways, I think, would like to run it on something like business principles. He hands over the direction of affairs to his General Manager, giving that gentleman the widest powers which he exercises like-well, I will not say what I was gudng to say, but, let us say, as a man from Berlin would exercise them. He has no regard for the feelings of anybody, but simply says:	I am the
Almighty so far as the Intercolonial is concerned, and I will do as I have a mind to so long as the minister will stand behind me. And he does things in that way, until it comes to the ordinary work of the railway, and then the politician steps in. And that is what the hon. member for Bimouski (Mr. Boulay) is finding fault with. The whole thing is honeycombed with politics. A man cannot get a position on the Intercolonial-except the big men whom Mr. Gutelius employs-otherwise than by going through the Conservative patronage committee. I informed the Minister of Bail-ways privately yesterday of a case to which I will not refer now at length, the case of

a man who could not even get a siding except through the patronage committee. Afterwards, he got his siding and paid for it, but as the Tory patronage committee did not want it, in three weeks it was taken up, and now he has to have the produce in which he deals teamed a quarter of a mile to and from his warehouse. This aiding was absolutely taken up because the politicians of that part cf the province did not want it.


Mr. COPP:: Worse than that they are
competitors in business.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Mr. CHARLES A. GAUVREAU (Temis-couta) (Translation):	Mr. Speaker, I am
not very much in sympathy with the hon. member for Rimouski (Mr. Beulay); but I must say that I give my hearty support to his resolution as drafted. Of course I am aware that his intention in bringing the matter before the House is to create an opportunity of calling attention to the treatment meted out to him by his political associates. The motion may be double-edged, but as the intention is to help the men on the Intercolonial, my hon. friend is entitled to support from this side of the House. When I hear such criticisms levelled at the management of the Government railway, I wish to recall to the hon. member that before 1911 there was a good board of management, to which the Liberal Government had appointed a French-Can-adian, Mr. Caron, from whom his compatriots could expect fair treatment. The friends of the hon. gentleman from Ri-mouski were barely secure on the Treasury benches, when he himself, who had a vengeance to wreak, as well as the ' hon. member for Mslet (Dr. Paquet) for well-known motives, were clamouring for the abolition of the Board, knowing full-well that the disappearance of the Board meant the dismissal of Mr. Caron. A General Manager was then appointed; his name sounds a good deal like that of a "Boche" and his methods have something of the Prussian about them. At any rate, the grievances exist, the employees on the Intercolonial are treated unfairly; we are here to protect them, and we must take every means to obtain redress.
The member for Rimouski, in an effort to prove that his party was not solely responsible for the present situation, states that the Liberals had imported men who had never been employed on the Intercolonial. When called upon to give specific instances, he mentioned a certain Mr. Russell. I remember his appointment. Ho has been made superintendent as a kind of experiment, but complaints were made all along the line, and justly so, so that after ten months Russell was dismissed.
I wish to observe en passant, that the Minister of Railways may be doing his best, but even taking into account his noted stoicism, I fail to see why he leaves the absolute management of the most valuable property of the country in the hands of Mr. Gutelius. In his office the minister is always courteous and even amiable, and ready, I believe, to do his best by French-Canadians. That is why I fail to under-

stand why Mr. Gutelius is allowed the upper hand. The mere fact that there is general dissatisfaction would justify the Minister of Railways, were he like some politicians I know, in depriving Mr. Gutelius of a position which he exploits, not only to the detriment of the road and the men, but even against the friends of the Government. Thus, not long ago, at the time of the New Brunswick elections, which caused much rejoicing in the Liberal camp, I read in a newspaper published in that province the reply of a Conservative leader, who was asked to what he attributed the defeat of his parry: "If you wish said he, to explain the defeat of the Government of New Brunswick, look at Mr. Gutelius." Of course, the hon. member for Rimouski finds little satisfaction in such facts, and if I mention them it is to obtain for the men on the Intercolonial some measure of freedom-not by shooting holes in the British flag-but the freedom of men who have a right to be treated fairly. That is the case to such an extent, that formerly the trades unions of the Intercolonial were a kind of shelter for the rail-waymen. If a man were in trouble, if he were destitute or had been dismissed for or without cause, he found among the members of the trades unions help and protection. Now men who are dismissed, sometimes through mere personal spite, appeal in vain to his fellow members of the union for redress: the officers of the union are in fear of the General Manager.
Quite possibly the minister who has been ill and had to travel extensively for his health is not aware of what is going on on the Intercolonial. I must bear witness to his kindness because when I appealed to him in the name of humanity on behalf of employees in destitute circumstances, I was always well received. For that only, I should forgive him many of his political sins in the past.
If things are going far from smoothly on the Intercolonial .it is because the minister places too much confidence in Mr. Gutelius and will not be undeceived. The day his eyes are opened, he will get rid of that gentleman and appoint another manager at a smaller salary; or he will take in his own hands the management of the road and I think the province of Quebec and the whole country will feel there has been an improvement.
I hope, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Rimouski will rally to his motion the unanimous support of the House. He simply requests after all that the manage-

ment of the railway be not left entirely under the control of Mr. Gutelius. Mr. Speaker, when a minister has charge of the most valuable property of the Government and knows the large number of men employed in connection with it, should not the mere fact that a general discontent exists, that the employees are provoked to the point of rising a3 one man to vote against the Government, make him realize the extent of the grievance and prompt him to eradicate it. And should he find that Mr. Gutelius is at the bottom of the general unrest, ought he not to order his dismissal? There is no lack of men In the Maritime Provinces, in Quebec or elsewhere who could be appointed General Manager.
The hon. member for Rimouski must be congratulated; his resolution is timely and will have good results. If he could suggest a scheme to operate the road, that would best fit conditions like those that prevailed last winter, he would deserve the thanks of this House and of his electors. Never has a railway been so badly managed as was the Intercolonial last winter. In fact accidents were far too frequent, and so much has their number increased that one does not feel safe when he travels on that road. Mr. Speaker, if this resolution has no other effect than to bring the Minister of Railways to realize that he must enquire for himself and dispense with the services of Mr. Gutelius, he will have earned the gratitude not only of his electors but of the whole province of Quebec.


John Dowsley Reid: Mr. Speaker, I see
no reason for not accepting the resolution because, so far as I know, the policy enunciated in it has been carried out, so far as it could be, on the Government railway system. The hon, member for .Carle-ton (Mr. Carvell) said a few minutes ago that they had as good men in Nova Scotia or New Brunswick, with as much brains as in any other part of the Dominion.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Sure I said that.


John Dowsley Reid: I agree to every word of that. But let me say. that from 1891 until 1896, when the Conservative party were in power, the Intercolonial was operated under the management of Mr. Ppttinger who had been manager for many years and who had, so far as I know, carried on the operation of the railway successfully. I have nothing but words of praise to utter, in so far as Mr. Pottinger is concerned. Yet, during all that time, hon. gentlemen opposite criticised the management of the
Intercolonial just as they are doing now. Mr. Pottinger was not fit to run the road, according to them everything was run politically.


George Perry Graham: Mr. Boulay is not on
this side of the House; Mr. Boulay is on that side of the House.


John Dowsley Reid: By the support of Mr. Bou-lay's resolution I think all the hon. members opposite are coming over to this side.


George Perry Graham: 'Soon.


John Dowsley Reid: No, as supporters of ours.


George Perry Graham: Oh, no.


John Dowsley Reid: Oh, yes. I was going to say-


George Perry Graham: It is kind ,of in the air, like.


John Dowsley Reid: I was going to say that when the Liberals came into power they at once decided to make a change. Mr. Pottinger was not considered by them tp be qualified to run the road. Although there are in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia men with as much brains as in any other part of Canada, although there were men on the Intercolonial who had served from boyhood up, yet, instead of taking a man with brains from Nova Sootia or New Brunswick, they went to the Grand Trunk and took Mr. Harris as general manager of the Intercolonial. Where were the men with brains from Nova Scotia or New Brunswick at that time? The Liberals then showed that, so far as they were concerned, they had to go outside of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick to get a man to operate the Intercolonial, and they went to the Grand Trunk railway. They were not satisfied with Mr. Harris and they put back Mr. Pottinger whom they had been condemning for fifteen or twenty years. But again Mr. Pottinger was not satisfactory. Why? Because they wanted to run the road politically. Then they wanted some more men with brains. Did they go to Nova Scotia or New Brunswick? They came right up to Ontario and went to the Canadian Pacific Railway and took Mr. Brady off the Canadian Pacific and made him superintendent of the Intercolonial. Although the hon. member for Carleton stated a few moments ago that they could produce men in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick who had been serving on the Intercolonial for many years and who were competent to act as superintendent, they went to the Canadian Pacific Railway and took Mr. Brady.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Did you approve of Mr. Brady at that time?


John Dowsley Reid: That is not the question I am discussing. They went further, they came here to Ottawa and formed a Board. How many men did they take from Nova Scotia and New Brunswick for that Board? The first man was Mr. Campbell, the deputy minister, who is from the province of Ontario. They wanted another man. Did they go to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick? They took Mr. Caron from the city of Ottawa, who had never run a railway in his life. They wanted another man to make up the Board. Did they go to the Intercolonial? Did they take an operating man? No, they went to the Grand Trunk and took Mr. Tiffin.


George Perry Graham: No, Mr. Tiffin was on the Intercolonial at the time and had been for years.


John Dowsley Reid: Mr. Tiffin was taken from the Grand Trunk and put on the Intercolonial by the Liberal party.


George Perry Graham: Not on that Board.


John Dowsley Reid: He was taken from the Grand Trunk and put on the Intercolonial as an employee.


George Perry Graham: The minister is getting excited. He was going along at a pretty good gait and has got into deep water. His memory has failed him. Mr. Tiffin was an old employee in charge of the traffic on the Intercolonial when he was placed on this Board. In addition to that, Mr. Pot'tinger was 'placed on this Board. This Board was modelled on the lines of the management of the Pennsylvania railway, and the heads of the several departments composed it. In deference to the French-speaking people living along the Intercolonial, the Liberal Government did what had never been done before; they placed a French-speaking man on that Board to have something to say as to how the road should be managed. That was Mr. Caron, formerly of the province of Quebec, latterly of Ottawa. As connecting link 'between the Government and the Board, the deputy minister was placed on it as chairman, because the late Government never shirked its responsibility in the management of the Intercolonial. So they made the deputy minister the connecting link with the Government in the management of the road.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: And they were all British subjects.
[Mr. J. D. Reich!


John Dowsley Reid: I am not finding fault with the men appointed. What I am endeavouring to prove is that Mr. Tiffin was an employee of another railway, from which he was taken and put on the Intercolonial. He was not promoted from the Intercolonial, except that when the Board was formed he was then made a member of the Board. Thus that very prominent position into which Mr. Tiffin was placed at first could have been filled, if the hon. members opposite are correct, toy a promotion from the Intercolonial. But that was not done. Mr. Caron was put on because he was a French-Canadian. There is no objection to that; that is perfectly right. But does the hon. member mean to say, when he interjects that remark, that along the Intercolonial from Montreal to Sydney, where there are hundreds, yes thousands, of French-Cana-dian employees who have served the road from boyhood up, there was not a man on the Intercolonial qualified to sit on that Board, and that it was necessary to go to the province of Ontario and take a man from the city of Ottawa?


George Perry Graham: My hon. friend's memory is at fault again. He means well, but he overlooks the chief fact. At that time the law was changed; what had never been done before was done then. An Act was passed allowing claimants against the Intercolonial up to a certain amount to sue the Government without going through the Exchequer Court. Mr. Caron, being a lawyer, was placed on the Board for the purpose of managing these cases at short range instead of at long range. Every employee on the Intercolonial could not have done that.


Mr. CROTHERS:: Could you not have found a French-Canadian lawyer down
there?


George Perry Graham: I shall not answer my hon. friend; this is not a labour problem.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Yes, it is; you are labouring very hard over it.


George Perry Graham: For me it is not a labour problem. The names of many legal gentlemen were submitted. I do not hesitate to say that I consulted the members along the Intercolonial, because the Intercolonial is owned by the people and not by any general manager. Several names which had been presented were submitted to the men interested and Mr. Caron was unanimously selected. He was a good man, and it was a mistake to put him off the Board.


John Dowsley Reid: I am not finding fault with Mr. Caron. What I find fault with is this: although members of the Bar of French descent were practising between Montreal and Sydney and had been doing business for the Government for many years in connection with the Intercolonial, you came to the province of Ontario and got for the position in question a man who was not at that time a qualified practitioner in the province of Quebec. I have in mind the reason why Mr. Caron was put on there.


George Perry Graham: Of course it is only a
suspicion.


John Dowsley Reid: It ie only a suspicion, but
*there is no harm in mentioning it. Mr. Caron was a good politician, and it was an awfully good thing to have a good politician on that board You could not get a better man than Mr. Caron; he is a fine man.


George Perry Graham: I am glad that you agree.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, he had a lot of experience in this House and in other ways so far as politics are concerned. Hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House say that the Intercolonial is honeycombed with politics. I agree with them to- this extent: it was honeycombed with politics prior to our coming into power. So long 5 p.m. as the hon. member for South Renfrew was operating the Intercolonial Railway, I am satisfied that there was no possible chance for the promotion of any Tory 'between Montreal and Sydney. There were no Tories on the Intercolonial Railway who had any brains at that time for promotion-


George Perry Graham: My hon friend surely
does not mean to say that there w'6Te no Tories with brains on the Intercolonial?


John Dowsley Reid: I mean in the opinion of the [DOT]hon. member for South Renfrew. There was no chance for any good Tory at that time, so far as the Intercolonial railway was concerned.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There are lots of them
now.


John Dowsley Reid: Of course there are, because we have been giving them their rights since we came into power. During the fifteen years that we were in opposition many men on the Intercolonial railway who should have been promoted did not get their rights, and many of them, because of their having received no promotion during fifteen years,
49 i
since reached the age limit and could not get the promotion to which they were entitled.
Hon. gentlemen have complained that there were wrecks on the Intercolonial railway. I submit that the Intercolonial Tailway is in the same position as any other railway with regard to wrecks; you cannot operate a railway without wrecks occurring. In my opinion, however, there have been fewer wrecks on the Intercolonial, proportionately speaking, than on any other railroad in Canada.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


John Dowsley Reid: As to the service on the
Intercolonial railway, I have it from highest officials of the department, as well as from other railways, that the service is equal to if not better than that of any of the other Canadian systems-and the Intercolonial railway has been in this position ever since war broke out in August, 1914. The Intercolonial railway is practically the only outlet to Halifax for the traffic over the other railways; consequently it has really been overloaded. An enormous amount of equipment has been added to the Intercolonial during the last two or three years and this railway was able last year, when not hampered on account of storms, to transport traffic much quicker than other roads.. The Intercolonial railway, upon the order of the Board of Railway Commissioners, took up the question of cutting down the passenger traffic on account of the enormous amount of foodstuffs and munitions that had to be transported. As on other railroads, passenger trains were taken off. The people were, of course, inconvenienced by this, but aside from the few discussions I have heard in this House, it is evident that the general public of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec, through which this road runs, were willing, on account of the necessity of transporting materials necessary in connection with the war, to bear with that inconvenience. There has been very little grumbling. I do not think that the Intercolonial is deserving of censure in that respect; as a matter of fact, I think it is putting on its passenger trains earlier than the other railways.
As to the suburban services at St. John and Halifax, new cars and new engines, if I remember rightly, have been put on by the Minister of Railways and Canals and they have a splendid service; since the minister put on this new equipment I have not heard one word of complaint. I have

no doubt that the Minister of Railways and Canals will put more oars and engines on the railway as fast as he can supply them. From the remarks made by hon. gentlemen opposite, the people might come to the conclusion, if the matter were not properly explained, that under Liberal ad-minstration any brains that were required in the Intercolonial railway were obtained by the promotion of officials of the railway.
I think, however, I have shown that during the fifteen long years that my hon. friends were in power, when they wanted brains for the permanent positions, instead of taking the brains on the Intercolonial, they simply came to Ontario and secured the .brains here for the management of that railway.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I trust the minister will not forget to tell us how many men during the past year were taken from other roads to fill positions under the general management.


John Dowsley Reid: I would be very glad to give my hon. friend that information if I had it before me. As regards the taking of employees from other roads, when some experienced men were required, owing to the fact that promotions had not been made from time to time as they should have been .made during those fifteen long years of Liberal rule, the older men were not dismissed, as stated by the hon. member, but were superannuated and new officials taken on. Take the case of Mr. Hayes. There .should have been an official on fhe Intercolonial trained up to fill that position, but as during those fifteen long years the late Government had not allowed a man on the Intercolonial to be trained up to fill it, this Government had to take from outside a man who had the experience.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Does the minister mean to say that because Conservatives had not been promoted, the Government were compelled to take a Liberal, or to go outside and select a new man, and that they went outside and selected a new man? Is that the argument the minister makes?


John Dowsley Reid: I repeat what I have already said. When the Liberals were in power for fifteen long years, I had not heard of any case in which the hon. member for Carle-ton (Mr. Carvell), we shall say, urged the Minister of Railways to promote an official on the Intercolonial to the position to which he would properly he entitled on account of his experience.	.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: For fifteen long years I supported that Government which the minister speaks about, and at the end of the fifteen years we went out of power. I had but one constituent employed on the Intercolonial railway. A few weeks after the Liberal Government went out of power, the present Government dismissed him, and I think they were quite right in doing so. I did not urge upon the Minister of Railways to promote any one.


John Dowsley Reid: In the interest of the employees who had joined this railway, I think it was the duty of the hon. member to stand up in the House then as he has done to-day and tell the Government of that day: "These men are employees of the Intercolonial ; they are there working on the road; give them promotion; do not bring in Mr. Harris from Montreal."


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Will the minister please come back to my question? Did he refuse to appoint Liberals, and was that the reason why he brought in outsiders?


John Dowsley Reid: In every case where we could find an employee qualified to fill a vacancy we promoted him. The policy of the Intercolonial and the policy of the Minister of Railways, to my knowledge, is that whenever there is a man with the knowledge requisite for a vacant position, he is to be promoted. That is the policy which has been followed by the Conservative party since we have been in power, and that is the policy which the Minister of Railways is trying to follow now, and as that is the purport of the resolution now before the House, so far as I am concerned, I see no reason why we should not support it.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the people of the Maritime Provinces, generally, and the employees of the Intercolonial particularly will feel gratified when they read in the public press the statement made by the Minister of Customs, and thus learn that they have been deceiving themselves for the past two years in regard to the management of that railway. I have listened with some degree of interest to the arguments on the resolution now before the House. I have the privilege of living near the Intercolonial railway centre and I know something about what is in the minds of the people in that vicinity in regard to the operation of that railway during the past few years. The minister has given

rather a vague historical sketch of the operation' of the Intercolonial for the past twenty-one years. My hon. friend from South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) has drawn his attention to the fact that his memory has failed on several points. It has not only failed him in regard to the matters drawn to his attention by that hon. member, but it has failed him in other matters	to	w.hich Ishall	direct him	to. I have	had	some experience of the Intercolonial for years past, and this is the first time I have heard that Mr. Pottinger was dismissed from the Intercolonial by the former Government and Mr. Harris made General Manager in his stead. I was not aware that that ever took place, and I think it is another lapse of memory on the part of the minister. So far as I can remember, Mr. Pottinger was General Manager of the Intercolonial prior	to the	defeat of	the Government	in 1896.	He remained	in that
position until a Board of Management, of which he was a member, was organized; in fact, he acted as deputy chairman of the board up to the defeat of the Government in 1911. Mr. Harris was brought from Montreal to Moncton to take charge of a certain branch of the Intercolonial, but he was weighed in the balance and found wanting,- and he was soon sent back to Montreal, or somewhere else entirely removed from the operation of the Intercolonial.
The resolution submitted by the hon. member for Rimouski is very important and I sincerely trust that it will have the hearty support and co-operation not only of hon. members on this side of the House, because this should not be a political question, but of hon. members on the other side. The principle embodied in the resolution must appeal to every intelligent citizen who knows anything about the operation of the Intercolonial railway, and anything of the employees of that road. I was surprised that the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Stanfield) did not take a stronger stand in support of the hon. member who introduced the resolution. The very strongest arguments that I have heard in favour of the principle of this resolution have appeared in newspapers supporting the hon. member for Colchester; in fact, if my information is correct, they have appeared in a paper owned by the hon. gentleman himself, together with a criticism of the Minister of Railways for not promoting men employed on the Intercolonial to important positions on that road. I am sure the hon.
member for Colchester took a proper stand at that time in regard to that very matter, and I regret, on behalf- of the employees of the Intercolonial railway in the Maritime Provinces in particular, the statement he has made this afternoon, and the action he has taken in practically withdrawing the support he gave during the time this matter was before the public in the newspapers. He has apparently withdrawn his support from the employees of the Intercolonial in the Maritime Provinces.
With regard to the operation of the Intercolonial the Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) would have us believe that the poor service is entirely due to the trains and motive power being used for the transport of troops and munitions, but I can tell him that the statement made by my hon. friend from Carleton as to the operation of the road is perfectly true. On one occasion last winteT, wishing to go from one station on the Intercolonial to another, I telephoned to the station to find out what train I could catch, and what information do you suppose I got? They said, " Yesterday's Maritime express will be here today on Ocean Limited's time, running three and one-half hours late." The Minister of Customs would have us believe that no complaints are being made in regard to the service, and he says that if the travelling public are inconvenienced in any way, it is because the trains are required for the transport of troops and war supplies. I should like to mention one little incident in this connection. The railway men of Moncton have been trying for years to get a special train to take them from Monctpn to Shediac at five o'clock when the day's work is done, but all their requests were turned down. Strange to say, in February last, although the road was then very busy carrying munitions of war, this train was put on from Moncton to Shediac.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: An election was coming on down there in two weeks.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The election was on then.
This new train was started on February 10, and was kept on for fourteen days, and on the 25th it was withdrawn because forsooth, they had no motive power to haul the train!


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The election was on the 24th. No politics in that?


Arthur Bliss Copp: For the Minister of Customs to say that the road is being run in the interests of the people of the Maritime

Provinces, and that there is no dissatisfaction with the service, is to talk nonsense. I could not follow the arguments of my hon. friend from Rimouski very well, and perhaps they were not on exactly the same line as mine, but I think I am voicing the sentiments of every person in the Maritime Provinces when I say that promotions on the Intercolonial should be made from the ranks of the employees. The men who have worked for years on the Toad, and gained the necessary experience, should be the first to be considered when a vacancy arises. My hon. friend (Mr. Reid) says that many men have been promoted in the last six years. Well, I can tell him that in that period more men still have been promoted out of the service, dismissed by politicians. That is what is going on.
The principle of this resolution has my very hearty support. Though I would not go so far as to say that the manager of the railway should be debarred from employing expert help for special purposes, I am thoroughly in favour of the general principle that the men who have gained their experience on the Intercolonial are just as capable, if not more so, of filling the higher positions than men brought in from outside.
In answer to a question I put on the Order Paper last session, I was told, if I remember correctly, that about twenty-three men had been brought in from outside to work on the Intercolonial. If there is any position on the Intercolonial that Intercolonial employees cannot fill, it is all right to get men from outside, but I know of cases without number where properly qualified men in the service have been passed over when a vacancy occurred. Some men who have been forced out of the service have through sheer ability made good with other railways, and others have taken positions in an entirely different line of work, and made good. Now, if these men had been promoted on the Intercolonial as they should have been, who can doubt that they would have made good there, after their many years experience on the road? A case came to my knowledge within the past week where a man who had practically given the best years of his life to the Intercolonial, had been discharged from the service without a moment's notice, and without a single charge being laid against him in any shape, manner or form. And yet my hon. friend would have us believe that there are no politics in the promotions and dismissals on the Intercolonial. As one hon. gentleman

has said, the Intercolonial is simply honeycombed with politics, and it is becoming more honeycombed year after year. Hon. gentlemen opposite have given the manager of the road carte blanche. Now, I would be the last one to say a word against Mr. Gutelius's reputation as an engineer or as Manager of the Intercolonial, but I do know this, that down in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick we have men with a little horse ?anse, and if the manager of the road has the vast experience and the great ability that hon. gentlemen opposite would have us believe, he certainly is not applying it in his management of the road \yhen the train from St. John to Halifax to connect with the Maritime Express from Montreal, day after day runs from twenty-four to thirty-six and even seventy-two hours late; and that is not the only case I could give. I sincerely trust that we have succeeded in bringing home to the Minister of Railways the many -short-comings in the service, and -the inconvenience and discomfort that the people of the Maritime Provinces have to put up with at the present time owing to the unsatisfactory operation of the road.


Francis Cochrane: There is no objection to the
passing of this resolution. It goes without saying that the Minister of Railways must be responsible to the public for the appointment of officials and for the management of the road. I have been more than amazed at many of the exaggerated statements that have been made in this debate, particularly those of my hon. friend from Carleton (Mr. Carvell) and my hon. friend from Westmorland (Mr. Copp). I do not think there has been a single case in which the Maritime express was seventy-two hours late.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Not only seventy-two hours late, but cancelled altogether.


Francis Cochrane: Probably there is not a road in Canada that has to contend with such snow difficulties as has the Intercolonial. We have had, without exaggeration, at least fifty feet of snow at places between Mont Joli and Montreal. The handling of the snow this season has cost us over $100,000 more than for any former season in the history of the Intercolonial. I am always glad to get recommendations and advice from hon. members residing in the territory -served by the Intercolonial. Of course, I cannot promise always to accept these suggestions; in fact, if I did, there would soon be a great muddle and

the road could not be run at all. The hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) stated that we had dismissed the Engineer of Maintenance on the Intercolonial. Without criticising or finding fault with my predecessor in office, I may explain that when a Bridge Engineer was appointed on the Intercolonial-an officer which the road had never had before-we h^d to run wrecking trains to several bridges, because though the locomotives had been increased in weight the bridges had not been strengthened, and examination showed that in many cases the rivets were withdrawn, the heads having been pulled off, so it was a miracle that we had not had more wrecks and greater loss of life than actually occurred. As to dismissals from the Intercolonial, I make the statement without fear of contradiction that I have not dismissed one-tenth as many during my whole term of office as hon. gentlemen opposite dismissed in the first six years of the control of the road. There is an arrangement with the different organizations under which there must be investigation before a man can be dismissed. I have adhered to this in every case, and I defy any one to show where a single man has been dismissed for political reasons without an investigation, or any case in which that investigation did not show that his dismissal was warranted.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: I can give the minister a case in my own riding.


Francis Cochrane: The different organizations would not stand for it.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: On the contrary.


Francis Cochrane: If in any case a mistake has been made, the man has been restored to his position, and paid. As to patronage, I am satisfied that I cannot fairly be accused of running the railway in that interest. The criticism of the people on my own side of the House is that I give no weight to such considerations. I have certainly tried to run the railroad in a business way, and in the interests of the whole people. I feel that as Minister of Railways I am not representing the Conservative party alone but have in charge the interests of the whole people, and I have acted accordingly.
Certain remarks were made about Mr. Gutelius. I could not follow very well the remarks made in the French language, but I believe there was an insinuation that Mr. Gutelius was a German. He is not a German, and never was. He was born in the United States, where his people have lived for generations. He is a naturalized Canadian, and has been in Canada for nearly twenty years.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Is it not a fact that he was not naturalized until he was appointed to the management of the road?


Francis Cochrane: Lthink so. But he had lived in Canada long before that and had been engaged in the operation of Canadian railways.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: We have lots of Germans of whom the same can be said,


Francis Cochrane: We have not lots of Germans on the Intercolonial. I think it should be borne in. mind that since I took hold of the railway we have taken over the operation of more than two thousand miles of new line and a great number of those employed in the operation of the Intercolonial have been put on those added railways. I am willing, and pleased, and proud, to promote men on the Intercolonial, and I am glad to have any member of this House, Grit or Tory, recommend a man for promotion. Our promotions on the Intercolonial have not by any means been of Tories only; many of those promoted have been Grits. We choose the men who stand out among their fellows as being worthy of promotion.
A remark was made concerning Mr. Caron which my hon. friend the Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) answered very well. But I may add, in answer to some of our French representatives, that Mr. Mathieu was appointed two or three years ago as counsel for the Intercolonial. I realize that the French population has a right to have proper representation not only among the officials but in the management of the road. I am glad at any time to get the names of those who are thought to be fit for promotion, because we still want assistant superintendents and superintendents. I do not think any of the gentlemen who have made remarks this afternoon-some very harsh and very exaggerated remarks-can name a man in the employ of the Intercolonial whom they would appoint to the position of general manager, if they had the power. I shall be glad to get the names if they care to give them.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Will you take the recommendation?


Francis Cochrane: I have to be the judge of that; but I shall be very glad to get the names. The hon. gentleman has not given any name.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I am afraid the minister would not take my recommendation.


Francis Cochrane: Perhaps not. I do not think we should take everybody's recommendation, for after all, as I have said, we are responsible for the running of the road. Complaint has been made about accidents. We have carried seven million passengers this year, the largest number in the history of the road, and we have not killed one passenger-not one. I am willing to leave it to any cpmpetent railway man to judge whether our management has not been an improvement upon any that went before.
With regard to taking off teams, we did not do anything other than what was done on every road in Ontario, by the direction of the Railway 'Commission, in order to help out the transportation question. I am surprised at the statements with regard to trains being late. There is not a train running into Ottawa or Montreal which is not late time and time again. I do not expect that if our Saviour were running the Intercolonial railway He would satisfy a great number of the people down there anyway. I do not expect at all to satisfy them no matter how long I run the road, but I intend to do what I think is right no matter whom it pleases ot whom it does not.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. ^Cochrane) is an interesting psychological study. Hearing the hon. gentleman' this afternoon speaking as he did with apparent candour in reference to the way the Intercolonial has been operated, one would fancy that my hpn. friend was absolutely sincere in the statements he made and actually believed that in the operation of the road he was doing exactly the proper thing. The real fact of the matter is that either my hon. friend is sincere in his assumptions or he is being deceived. We are bound to assume that my hon. friend is sincere in the statements which he has made to the House. If he is sincere he is being grossly deceived in regard to the information that comes to him as to the operation of the Intercolonial. It may be that my hon. friend, psychologically speaking, is not in a position to grasp the theory of the people living along the Intercolonial with regard to the method of

administration. If, as is stated in the country sometimes, it is the intention of this Government to inaugurate a broad system of government ownership of railways, they will have absolutely no supp.ort or sympathy from the people of that part of the Dominion if what they are doing is any indication of what they will do on a larger scale.
My hon. friend suggests that he is under the impression that the Intercolonial is being run satisfactorily. It may be that my hon. friend does not understand the people of the Maritime Provinces. I think that is the real fact of the matter. He does not understand their aspirations, but trusts entirely to subordinates and accepts what they say to him on the supposition that their statements represent the facts. That is the most generous and sympathetic attitude to adopt in regard to my hon. friend. To say that during the last two years there was the slightest appreciation of the conditions that existed in the Maritime Provinces iby the men whp were running the Intercolonial would be to make an absolutely mistaken statement. If one takes a train on that railway at any season of the year, or connects from any of the railways operating in any other part of Canada, one at once sees that the whole system has fallen down. When anything is said they say: The Intercolonial has to haul all the troops that are sailing from Halifax in winter and therefore you should -excuse all these imperfections. But the whole trouble in regard to the management of the Intercolonial in reference to that phase of the situation was that, although this war has lasted for nearly three years, although the ex-Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) and myself, a year ago, on the 4th of May, said to the then Acting Minister of Railways that the provision at that time in regard to the supply of cars, both for passenger and freight service, was wholly inadequate, and that they ought to have proceeded long before that in order to prepare for the conditions created by the war, it was only at a Hate day that my hon. friend undertook to deal with the question at all. Emfoargos were placed on freight- coming from the Maritime Provinces in 1915 by those who were in control of the railway and the business interests of those provinces suffered in a tremendous degree on account of the lack of foresight of the management. Notwithstanding all that was brought to the attention of the Acting Minister of Railways, totally inadequate provision was made to meet the condition which arose. It was

necessary to have a thousand extra freight oars to deal with that situation in 'an effective way. But, during last winter, the business interests of the Maritime Provinces were tied up again, the whole of the passenger service was dislocated and the conditions, as described toy hon. gentlemen who have spoken before me this afternoon, were not in any degree exaggerated. The 'business men of those provinces could not deal with business men west of Montreal. They were told that the Canadian Pacific and the Grand Trunk refused to give cars to the Intercolonial, because, when they got them down there, they never brought them back. It was impossible to get freight west of Montreal. The same condition existed, by reason of some difference that arose between the management of the Intercolonial and the Canadian Pacific, with reference to the passenger connection at St. John. This was due to a misunderstanding between the men who are operating the Intercolonial and those in charge of connecting roads. Day by day business men came to St. John from the United States or upper Canada to find that the Canadian Pacific train had left half an hour before they arrived, simply because the Intercolonial management would not deal with these roads in what they thought was a proper way.


Francis Cochrane: The freight embargo was put on by the Grand Trunk in Montreal. Under an arrangement, made by the late Government-I do not say it was a bad arrangement-they were unable to handle freight, and therefore we had to bring 49 engines and vans up in order to keep the overseas stuff moving. We could not move freight west simply because the Grand Trunk could net accept it.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: What about the Canadian Pacific?


Francis Cochrane: There was an arrangement made by Act of Parliament, but they got the stuff there or at Ste. Rosalie junction.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Not the Canadian Pacific. There is no arrangement by Act of Parliament with the Canadian Pacific.


Francis Cochrane: If a shipper bills
freight from Pictou to Toronto over the Canadian Pacific, we have no right to have it billed by the Grand Trunk.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: We were speaking about freight going east, and my hon. friend's remarks apply to freight going west. If my hon. friend had the cars that the
ex-Minister of Railways had pleaded with the acting minister to get in ample quantities, and if he had got the engines that he was asked to get and which he could have got, we would not have had that blockade.


Francis Cochrane: We are not responsible for the blockade. They would not accept a car from us.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: You could have taken the cars from them if they would not take the cars from you. All you had to do was to supply engines to take the cars that were tied up at these connecting points.


Francis Cochrane: The Canadian Pacific embargoed stuff going from Montreal. They would not take any freight except for overseas business.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The management of the Intercolonial created these conditions both in regard to passengers and freight, and it is that same kind of management that has caused hon. gentlemen to complain about the conditions to-day. Then, I come to the question, which is the particular subject of this motion, of the promotion of men in the service. The Minister of Customs went off to give us some ancient history in regard to the matter, but my hon. friend did not venture to deal with the proposal, which is the subject of this motion, in regard to promotion of men who are in the service. That is something that is bitterly complained of. It is the thing that caused the former whip of the Conservative party to send his resignation as a member of this House to the chairman of the executive of the party in his county and to resign his position as whip - in this House, and which caused his brother, a member of the Legislature for the county of Colchester, to send his resignation as a member to the Chairman of the Conservative organization in that county; and also, according to his own statement, to decline to take his seat in the Legislature until, as he said, the Minister of Railways came down. Take, for instance, the man who is now Superintendent of the Intercolonial from Saint John to Truro, a man named Devenisih. This man wa's first heard from in connection with railroading as an engineer on the Transcontinental, and it is said that he was very useful to Mr. Gutelius in connection with the preparation of the partisan report which he mads upon the construction of that railway. Let me give an illustration of the extent to which the public are inconvenienced under the

administration of this man. Three weeks ago a through passenger train left St. John on time at two o'clock. At Coid-ibrook it was held up for ten minutes awaiting the arrival of a suburban train running from Rothesay. Imagine a through train withi connections from Boston and New York being held up at a side station for a suburban train on a very short line. Farther along the road they came to Painsee, where they were held up for half an hour waiting to cross another train from the east, when they could have reached Sackville in ten minutes. At McCurdy's siding they were held up to overtake a freight train on a small siding and to wait for another freight train which had left Truro ten minutes before, with the result that the three trains were tied up at this little inconsequential siding three miles out of Truro for nearly an hour. Forty-five passengers going to Prince Edward Island arrived at Truro two hours late by reason of the magnificent superintendence of this gentleman, Mr. Devenish, who was brought to the Intercolonial 'by the minister and Mr. Gute-liua. One passenger said to an official: "This is very queer train dispatching.'' The official said:	"Train dispatching! This is
not train dispatching, this is train detaining." Here is this gentleman, Mr. Devenish, who was not brought up on the Intercolonial, placed in control of that section of the road, without any knowledge of local conditions, and under such circumstances that to-day there is not a 'business man or a patron of the road from Truro to Saint John who does not condemn my hon. friend for having placed that gentleman there. Why was he put there? Does my hon. friend mean to say that there were not men on the Intercolonial, conductors of long experience, men of intelligence and capacity, who were fit to superintend that division of the road? Does he mean to say that there was no man on that railway who could have done that superintending and could not do it to-day better than Mr. Devenish? My hon. friend must recognize these conditions. If he is sincere in the position he takes, for his own good I would advise him to get some information as to exactly what is going on down there. Take, for instance, the case of my hon. friend for Colchester (Mr. Stanfield) and his brother. It is all very well for the Minister of Railways to-day to say that he is in favour of the general principle of promotion on the Intercolonial. Why did he, in the year 1915, import twenty-tMr. Macdonald. 1
three men from outside on the Intercolonial? My hon. friend himself gave us the information last winter. On the 26th of April, in answer to the question of my hon. friend from Westmorland (Mr. Copp), the then Acting-Minister of Railways, told this House that down to Dec. 31, 1915, twenty-three outside men were appointed. In the engineering department there was one man at $500- a month, one at $110 a month, two at $100 a month, one at $165 a month and so on. Some, of these men in different departments were brought in at salaries of from $6,000 to $8,000. In regard to every one of those appointments to positions of a subordinate character under the general manager, there is not a man on the Intercolonial, Liberal or Conservative, who does not know that there are men on the road who could do that work as well as these men. The minister will have to give us in a few days a list of the men he has employed since December, 1915, from outside the Intercolonial, so that we will have this list brought up to date. I presume he will be willing to produce that list. We will then be able to get at the facts in connection with the objections raised by the hon. member for Colchester. My hon. friend says his policy has always been to promote men from the railway staff rather than to take men from outside. That is a remarkable statement in view of the fact that he took on twenty-three outside men, as he said, last year; and I do not know how many he has taken since. I have here what the brother of the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Stanfield), who is the member for Colchester in the Provincial House, said. It is just as well that the House should understand, since we are on this question, just what the feeling of the people down there is. Men on the Intercolonial and in the Maritime Provinces are opposed to this Government on account of the way they and the public have been treated. That is the reason why Mr. Stanfield, the member of the local legislature for Colchester, did not take his seat in the House of Assembly. This is what he says:
As you are aware, I did not take my seat in this House until Wednesday last. I represent a county in which a large number of employees of the Canadian Government Railway reside. These employees I consider to be as efficient as any railway men in the world. As a public man, I naturally come into contact with a great many railway men. As a business man, representing large commercial interests, I have constant business dealings with the railway. Questions arose in regard to promotion of employees. I took the ground that the rail-

way management had n >t sufficiently recog-n zed in this respect the merits and the rights of the men. I contended that the principle should he adopted and elearly understood that a 1 promotions to h'gher pcsi ions on the C.G.R. should be given to employees of the said railway.
To emphasize my position in this matter, I deemed it to be advisable to refrain from taking my seat in this House until I obtained assurances in regard to the principle for which I contended.
He does not mention here that in addition to refusing to take his seat in the House he sent his resignation to the Chairman of fhis party, or that he got his brother, the member of this House for the same county, to send his resignation to the Chairman of the Convention in the county and to resign his position as whip of the Conservative party in this House.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Does he say what
pledges he received?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I am coming to that. It is all very well for the Minister of Customs and the Minister of Railways to say that they have recognized in the past the *principle of promotion on the Intercolonial. But if that was so, what was the meaning of the Stanfield brothers acting as they did in this matter of resigning their seats and refusing to continue their positions in the Conservative party, and calling on their party to accept their resignations? Mr. Stanfield goes on:
I am now pleased to be able to make it known to the employees of the Canadian Government Railway system, and to this House, that the management agrees to the general principle of promotion within the ranks, which1 I claimed to be only fair and just.
Wlhat does that mean? That the Minister of Railways had declined to take this position until Mr. Stanfield and his brother had made this threat, and having made the threat they now absolutely say to the people and the Legislature of Nova Scotia that- the Minister of Railways now agrees to the general principle of promotion within t'he ranks, and that he succeeded in this matter. He goes on:
I consider, therefore, that having succeeded in this matter and having, as I believe, vindicated the fair and reasonable rights of the men of the Canadian Government Railway, I am better able to serve their interests and the interests of the public, by being sworn in as a member of this House to which I was elected last June by the votes of the. people of the County of Colchester.
What does that mean? Either that we are to believe the statement of these two members of the Government. to-day that
they have always recognized the principle of promotion, and we are bound to believe them, and that the brothers Stanfield have been, as I have said, in common parlance making a grand stand play for the benefit of their constituents and the railway employees-either that is the situation, or Messrs. Stanfield are telling the truth; that it was necessary for them to threaten to resign their seats and to take the position which one of them in the Legislature of Nova Scotia said it was necessary for him to take before the Government or the Minister of Railways would recognize the principle which is contained in this resolution.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, when
the House rose at six o'clock, we were on the point of considering the statement made by Mr Stanfield, the local member for Colchester, in regard to the difference of opinion he had with the Minister of Railways respecting a certain appointment, and I gave the House what Mr. Stanfield had said in the provincial legislature on the subject and pointed out that, as a result of his statement, either the minister was entirely mistaken in the assumption that he has given to the House that in the past he has been in the habit of promoting employees of the Intercolonial to fill the different positions, or Mr. Stanfield is mistaken. This is the statement given by the minister in answer to the questions asked him by the hon. member for Guysboro, as reported in Hansard, page 692:


John Howard Sinclair: .	.	. Would the minister he good enough to tell us if he has' rea-lly changed his policy in that regard, and if we may expect that appointments on the eastern division will be made in a different manner in the future?


Francis Cochrane: I have made no change
in policy. My policy is to appoint the best man. If it is possible to find him on the road we certainly take him. It has been my policy ever since I took charge of the department to promote men when I knew they were capable of filling the vacant position.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister did not
promise to make any change-is that what we are to understand?
The minister very delicately sidestepped that straight question and answered:


Francis Cochrane: I have said exactly what
I mean.
In other words, he had said what he had said, and he proposed to leave it a mystery

to the speculation of an admiring public as to whether Mr. Stanfield had stampeded him or he had stampeded Mr. Stanfield. I recall that under the regime of the old Empress of China (a regime which has now disappeared, to be superseded by a republic), the admiration of the diplomatic world was always extended to the state documents that were in vogue in those days, because of the marvellous art displayed in all of those documents of what was known in diplomatic circles as "saving their face." It was that marvellous quality which caused the American humorist to say:
For ways that are dark
And tricks that are vain,
The heathen Chinee is peculiar.
Whether it is my hon. friend the minister or the Stanfield family that has resorted to this Oriental system of deceiving the public and throwing dust into their eyes, I a>m not sure, but certainly there was some development of that particular art, because we have these two absolutely distinct statements staring us in the face: on the one hand, the announcement to an admiring public by the self-sacrificing member of the local legislature that he had refrained from taking his seat as a representative of the people in the council halls of the province; that he had sent his resignation to the President of the Conservative Association in the riding by way of protest against the nefarious system which the Minister of Railways had established in the Intercolonial of ignoring the promotion of competent appointees, and on the other, the statement of the minister, reiterated to-day, that he had not in the slightest iota departed from his policy upon that question. These are two absolutely contradictory statements. Were it not for the fact that we have the real facts at our disposal and are able to give them to the House and to the people, members of Parliament would be left in wonderment at the Oriental adeptness of mind of these two gentlemen. The minister 'has the proud satisfaction now of having the former whip of the party state in the House that he was all right again- in somewhat abstruse language, I admit, but still that was the effect. What are the facts? There was the necessity of appointing an official in the city of Halifax to look after the terminals that were being established there. In spite of the pathetic appeals which the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) made in the House last year and which my hon. friend from Halifax (Mr Maclean reiterated yes-
terday, pointedly calling the attention of Parliament and the country to the fact that those appeals had fallen on unheeding eaT6, the Minister of Railways continued the old system of patronage on the Intercolonial; and so when this vacancy occurred, along came the Stanfield brothers who recommended to the General Manager or to the minister the appointment of a Mr. McNutt to have charge of those terminals. Mr. McNutt was a train despatcher on the Intercolonial, and a very estimable man as a train despatcher, but I am going to say this to the minister, that when the Stanfields came to him and wanted him to appoint a train de-spatoher to look after the terminals at Halifax, he very properly refused to appoint him, and in that respect he was correct. What did the Stanfields do? They immediately proceeded to declare that the principle of promotion of appointees had been violated by this terrible minister; they set on foot their organ, the Truro Citizen, to belabour the hon. gentleman, which it did in every mood and tense for months to the interest of the people of the Maritime Provinces. The minister, however, foolishly did a wrong thing. Instead of looking around amongst the employees of the Intercolonial and ascertaining whether or not there was a competent conductor or trainman who had experience in handling cars and trains to he found who could be placed in that position, and promoting such a man who would be competent whereas a train despatcher would not be, the minister deserted the Intercolonial altogether, and at the instigation no doubt of his general manager, he proceeded to appoint another man from somewhere else who had no connection with the Intercolonial. The result was that they were both wrong: the Stanfields were wrong because they were recommending a man whose line of training did not fit him for the position-


John Stanfield: I never recommended a man.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Well, if my hon.
friend did not recommend him, his brother did. It amounts to the same thing. They proceeded to ask the public to regard them with admiration because they had stood up for the interest of the men on the Intercolonial, while the minister proceeded to have his organs throughout Upper Canada, where the facts were not known, clothe him with a mantle of great virtue and

propriety as standing solidly against this nefarious system of patronage which the hon. member for Colchester was trying to impose upon him. That is the way the game was played.


Francis Cochrane: He was not recommended by a member at all.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Who recommended him?


Francis Cochrane: A railway man, capable of knowing, recommended him.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Recommended whom?


Francis Cochrane: The man my hon. friend is speaking about.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Which man?


Francis Cochrane: The assistant superintendent at Halifax.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The one the minister appointed?


Francis Cochrane: Yes.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I did not say that he was recommended by a member. I said that the minister went to another part of the country to get him. The man recommended by the member for Colchester was Mr. McNutt, a train despatcher of Truro. That was the first act. What was the next? The next act was that Mr. Stanfield, the memher of the provincial tegdslature, proceeded to write a letter to t{ie president of the Conservative Association in his county, who happens to be a brother of the man whom he had recommended for the position. Mr. Stanfield became rather jealous of the adulation which was being extended to the Minister of Railways for having withstood the onslaught of these patronage hunters in Nova Scotia, and he thought he was entitled to some kudos. He immediately started the theory that he was not so particular about McNutt as he was concerning the principle of the promotion of employees and his newspaper sedulously cultivated that idea. Therefore, he sent his resignation to Mr. McNutt the president of the association, and the hon. member for Colchester in this House followed that up by sending in his resignation also. But all the while the minister stands grim and glum behind the great reputation fpr political virtue that he has gathered to himself as the result of standing against the onslaught of the gentleman from Colchester. Then came the third act of the drama. An impasse occurred. The member
for Colchester in the provincial legislature could not take his seat in the face of those conditions. His brother in this House also was troubled as to what his attitude should be. In the interim, after the adjournment of this House had taken place, these two doughty forces which had been battling so sturdily decided to get together. They made a compromise, and the minister created a new job altogether, viz. Inspector of Train Despatchers.


John Stanfield: It is not a new job.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: How was the
vacancy created?


John Stanfield: I forget the gentleman's name who occupied it previously, but he was given another position.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: My hon. friend's explanation is worse than his denial.


George Perry Graham: Like the hon. member
for Peterborough (-Mr. Burnham), he is trying to explain the inexplicable.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: drama or not. He is a doughty warrior at long distance. He has threatened the Minister of Railways, and his reputation as a threatener and as a patronage dispenser has extended beyond the bounds of his own province. Whether his appearance to-day with this resolution is for the purpose of enabling these warriors in the play to make their exits gracefully, I am unable to determine. But no matter whether this resolution is agreed to by hon. gentlemen or not, the same old game will go on, notwithstanding the declaration of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and not a man will be employed on the Intercolonial, whether a returned soldier or not, unless he is recommended by the man who has the patronage. That is the situation.
In all frankness I would say to the minister that the complaints which have been made with regard to the operation of the Intercolonial during the last two winters are founded upon absolutely justifiable grounds. We urged last winter, during the absence of the minister, that some prescience, some capacity to look ahead, should be shown by the management. In that marvelous utterance of President Wilson, when he addressed Congress the other day on the duty of the nation in the war, one of the things he laid particular stress upon was the necessity for the transportation companies to use all their efforts, and, by looking ahead, to prepare for the condition which would ensue if war was declared. The obligation which President Wilson sought to impress upon the transportation ^companies of the United States rested equally upon this Government from the very beginning of the war in regard to the Government Railway. The Government knew that it would be necessary to transport our troops and war .materials to the eastern part of Canada over that road, and it was the bounden duty of the management of the Intercolonial the moment war was declared to order such an excess'of equipment over what would be required in normal times, both cars and locomotives, that there would be no danger of holding up the transportation of troops or war material. We asked them in this House to do that, but they never moved. Instead of giving orders to all the car shops in Canada to prepare for the condition which has existed in every one of the 'last three winters, and which will exist again next winter, unless the war should fortunately end before, the Government proceeded to buy some second-hand cars in the United States, with the result

that there have been endless stoppages, tie-ups and vexatious delays, and the common talk in the Maritime Provinces is that it is due wholly and solely to the absolute lack of foresight displayed by the management of the Intercolonial.
My hon. friend said that the General Manager of the Intercolonial was a Canadian citizen. Rightly or wrongly, the people of the Maritime Provinces view the General Manager with some suspicion. It is true he is an American citizen, but the United States is filled with German-American citizens. The General Manager of the Intercolonial came to Canada about 1897, and worked with different railways here until'he was employed as one of the investigating commissioners on the Transcontinental. Although he conducted that inquiry with Senator Staunton, he never took the oath of allegiance to His Majesty King George V, and it was not until after the report had been laid on the table of the House and was under discussion here, and after the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Carvel!) had asked whether Mr. Gutelius was a Canadian citizen or not, that he proceeded to take the oath of allegiance. One of the men that Mr. Gutelius brought in from outside was a man named Ruhl, who was also said to come from the United States. He was employed at $200 a month as engineer. In the autumn of 1915 there appeared on the eastern portion of the Intercolonial, in the employment of Mr. Ruhl, a man who was unquestionably a German. He had been in Germany until after the war began, and when he came on the Intercolonial he was employed in some out-of-the-way place with some Austrians and Germans. When he came to my town the gang of men with whom he was going to work discovered who he was and refused to work a day longer if he was employed. The man then disappeared. This was in the year 1915. Mr. Ruhl, who had been employed as engineer on the eastern portion of the Intercolonial, went away too, and I do not know whether he is employed on the railway now or not. These are facts about which there is no manner of doubt, and they add to the sense of insecurity and suspicion with which the people of the Maritime Provinces view the management of the Intercolonial.
And when you see everything tied up, as has been the case for the last two or three winters, with trains delayed and lack of connection, and freight impossible to be moved, is it any wonder that there is com-

plaint. This resolution gives us an opportunity to voice the deep feeling that unquestionably exists in the Maritime Provinces with regard to the management of the Intercolonial at 'this time. The minister has told us that he stands where he has always stood with regard to appointments. On the other hand, we have the statement by a prominent public man supporting the minister that he has compelled the minister to recede from the position he formerly held on that question. To-day the minister accepts the motion of his follower from Rimouski (Mr. Boulay), but I am afraid that there will be little result from that resolution and the present debate upon it. The minister will go on enforcing, as he has always done, the principle of patronage ot the fullest degree. He tells us with pride that he has not made dismissals, and says that with regard to dismissals an arrangement exists with the brotherhoods. That arrangement was made by the ex-Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham), and of course, it must be carried out. But the fact remains that for employees on the road there is a system of demerits, and if an employee is not satisfactory to the person who directs the patronage of the district, every small fault of which he may be guilty will be charged against him in full. I think the minister does not know what goes on in this regard,-I amwbound to say I believe that fully. But the present discussion will enlighten him, and I hope that the result of this discussion and of the acceptance of the resolution will be to enable him to carry into effect that which he says he wishes to carry into effect, due promotion of the men who are employed on the Intercolonial.


Francis Cochrane: Will the hon. gentleman (Mr. Macdonald) name a man on the Intercolonial whom, if he were the minister, he would appoint as manager?
Mr. MACDONAI\D: I should be glad to confer with my hon. friend and give him a suggestion on that point.


Francis Cochrane: Name one now.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I could name two or three.


James Joseph Hughes: This discussion has taken a much wider range than I had expected it would in view of the terms of the resolution. But the minister has told us that he is glad to have suggestions and advice from members of the House or from anybody who has advice to give. I take advantage of the opportunity thus afforded to call his attention to certain matters relating to that portion of the Government Railways system known as the Prince Edward Island Railway. That line has deteriorated very considerably during the last couple of years. The minister smiles-


Francis Cochrane: Yes, I do.


James Joseph Hughes: I am satisfied he has had representations made to him about this deterioration.


Francis Cochrane: No.


James Joseph Hughes: Let me give the minister some facts within my personal knowledge. The road-bed has deteriorated, because few ties have been supplied within recent years, and many of the ties are rotten, in fact so soft that they will not hold the spikes. The consequence is that trains run off the track. There must be records of these things in the department. I personally have seen the wrecks.


Francis Cochrane: Does the hon. gentleman know of a railway that does not have wrecks?


James Joseph Hughes: It is not good management to have ties so rotten and so soft that the rails spread because the spikes do not hold. I myself saw cars that had been wrecked, and their contents destroyed or damaged, the railway being put to a considerable loss. It would be a penny-wise-and-pound-foolish policy to continue this neglect. Again, the rolling stock has deteriorated. I know personally that engines going out to haul trains have not been able to take them to their destination, and other engines have to be sent out to do the work. Many of the engines are leaky. There is a shortage of box cars on the road. Every business man in Prince Edward Island knows that- I do some business in the produce line, and I know that every man who applied for cars last fall had to wait a considerable time before he got them. I should have thought that the minister would have this information, but he does not seem to have it. I understood that the Board of Trade in Charlottetown had made representations to the department on these points, and I presume that the members supporting the Government have also made representations on the same line to the minister. If they have not done so, I think they have been remiss in their duty.
I hope the minister will be able to assure me that this condition of affairs will be improved. If the ties have not been pre-

pared this winter to replace those that have rotted, the minister will have pany wrecks in the fall when the produce is moving. And he will not be able to meet the trade conditions unless more engines and more box cars are provided for the railway. There are capital machine shops in Charlottetown, built several years ago, at which, I should think, a good deal of work could he done. I am confident that the members from Prince Edward Island who support the Government will tell the minister exactly what I have told him. I should be very glad to have his assurance that the conditions will be improved.


Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: As I am one of those residing in the country served by the Intercolonial railway, I suppose it is in order for me to speak of the management of the road, as we see it in the island of Cape Breton from which I come. If this is to be-regarded as an occasion for imparting information to the minister, then, however great his capacity, I think enough has been given him to make it unnecessary for me to impose further in the same direction. I do not intend to make severe criticism of the management, for I think that, if criticism can produce results in this case, sufficient has already been given to assure us of all we desire. When I read this resolution, I thought it would not cover a criticism of the management, as it relates to promotions to positions as these fall vacant and the men in the service of the road prove fit to fill them.
That phase of the subject was dealt with very fully and satisfactorily by the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) and the necessity of such a policy was so clearly established by him that it would be superfluous on my part to touch upon it any further. I think we must recognize, however, that if there is a management, either by the minister or a board of management, they must take the responsibility of managing the road. While we may suggest .to them the way in which this shall be done, the final responsibility -is with the minister and his officers and the people will hold the minister responsible for the way in which the road is managed. While the Intercolonial, or any other road owned by the Government, is so- held and possessed, no minister need hope to escape criticism. No matter whether there is a general manager, or a board of management, the people of this country through this House will criticise that management 
and the responsible minister must have a seat on the floor of this House and answer to such criticism. Of course, the minister, whether or not he is in fault directly in connection with this mismanagement, if mismanagement there be, must, as a matter of course, take the full responsibility and be answerable to this House.
The minister -and the hon. gentlemen from Quebec, Ontario land farther wes/t hardly -appreciate the situation in Nova Scotia in so far as the Intercolonial is concerned. -Ontario i-s a regular gridiron of railways and if you do not get satisfaction from one road you will get it from another. New Brunswick is in much the same position. In Nova Scotia we have to rely practically on one road. We have the Intercolonial extending through the length of the province from Amherst to Sydney and no other competing road for passengers or freight. It must therefore be understood th-at it is of the highest importance to the public in Nova Scotia that proper management should prevail in connection with that -road. For that reason, we are always bound, in doing our duty to the people we represent, to bring any grievance^ we have to the notice of the minister.
He has had a great many attacks made upon him lately in connection with this matter. My hon. friend f-rom Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) has explained the various stages of the very interesting -drama which was played with s.ome degree of manoeuvring between the minister and two hon. gentlemen, one in the local House and the other an honoured and respected member of this House. I have sat in this House for some years since the minister came here, and also before, I have watched his conduct, and no matter what the ho-n. member for Colchester (Mr. Stanfield) may say, I am disposed to. think that the hon. gentleman is in the place in which he was before this row began and that it was up to the hon. member for Colchester to make the most of it and let himself down as gracefully as possible. The play between these hon. gentlemen reminds me of a story that was told me by a little Micmac pupil who was going to school in m>
part of the country. He related to me that one day he had had a falling out with the teacher and I asked him what the trouble was. He said: He always makes me sweep house, draw water, chop wood and put on the fire. One day we made up our minds that we would not

do these things. The teacher said: Why did you not haul the water, why did you not make the fire, why did you not chop the wood, why did you not sweep house? We said: We won't do it. Then, there was an awful row. The little Indian boy was willing to stop there without telling me anything more of the story: I asked:	What
happened, and he replied: We had to draw the water, we had to sweep house, we had to chop the wood, we had to put on the fire, and we all got licked. I believe the minister was the teacher in this case and that the hon. member for Colchester had to haul the water, chop the wood, sweep house, put on the fire and that they all got a licking. No matter how they may tell this to the people of Colchester and of Nova Scotia, I believe that the gentlemen from Colchester climbed down and that the minister is in the same condition that he was in before this row began.
I am sorry that he has found it so very difficult to manage the people of Nova Scotia in connection with this railway. I wish to assure the minister that he would never come across a more kindly people than the people of Cape Breton, a people so easily pleased, or who will appreciate so much anything that is done for them by a-magnate such as the minister. But he tells us that he is going to give up and he suggests that our "saviour" should try to manage the road down there. I am glad that he is generous enough to say that we could get a manager who is not available in the province of Ontario. But I hope he will be able to make another try himself and not put us to the necessity of going out of Ontario looking for suoh a high and sacred management as he suggested this afternoon.
. There are a few things in respect to this management that I would like to bring to the notice of the minister. This is a straight question of management, small in itself, but important to the people of Cape Breton. The minister is aware that under Conservative rule, when the road was built into the island of Cape Breton, about 1890, an hotel was built at the Grand Narrows by a gentleman who then occupied a seat in this House, supporting the Government of the late Sir John A. Macdonald. That hotel was built, and encouraged to be bui'lt, for the accommodation of people travelling on the Intercolonial. It has always been a stopping place for refreshments in the evening on the return of the train arriving at the Grand Narrows about six o'clock. Later on a restaurant was 'built there and
50	I
the public has been accommodated for the last twenty-six or twenty-seven years by the train stopping at this station and allowing the public to patronize these two places. Money has been invested in the hotel and in the restaurant. But, to the consternation of the men who have invested their money in these enterprises, an order was issued preventing the train from stopping at these places, and they have 'been given the go-by. The result of it is that these men are put out of business. That may appear a very small matter to the Government and to the minister, but it is everything to these two men who have put their money into these enterprises, enterprises which have a vested right, having existed in this country for over thirty years. I submit to the minister that by a stroke of the pen he should not put these men out of business in that way. The fact that this hotel and this restaurant were there was a great accommodation to the public. The train stopped for twenty minutes and people were enabled to go to the hotel and the restaurant and get such food as they required. What happens now? You get to the Grand Narrows about six o'clock, and two hours, or two hours and a half, after that you get to Sydney or North Sydney-that is, about eight o'clock-when all the hotels are cleared up and when no food is supplied unless for extraordinary purposes and on extraordinary occasions. The result will be that people will have to go without food; even although they are travelling with small children they must go to bed hungry or else rove around hunting for a restaurant simply because for some freak or other the management of the Intercolonial thought proper to run by this place and not afford the former opportunity of obtaining -food at the customary place. It may be said that passengers can get a meal on the train. A person gets for twenty-five cents or fifty cents all he needs at a restaurant or hotel, but in the dining car he cannot get anything worthy of the name of a meal for less than (fl 50 or $2. People cannot afford that, and the result is that they have to go hungry. The hotel is a splendid hotel, well kept, and a commodious 'building. It is run by a Mr. McNeill, who caters to the public with excellent taste, and is willing on all occasions to do what he can to meet the demands of the public. Those in charge of the restaurant also do what they can to meet the demands of the travelling public. Grand Narrows is one of the beauty spots of the Bras d'Or lakes, and people are always glad to

\

have an opportunity to rest at that hotel. If conditions continue as they have been since January, there will be no hotel, as it could not Ibe kept up without the railway business. This means so much to the travelling public that, as it involves no additional expense to the railway and does not incommode anybody, this request should certainly be granted. The train must stop there for flvie minutes for water and the additonal fifteen minutes would not be missed. I do not wish tn make any harsh criticism of the minister, whom I have always found willing and obliging so far as I am concerned. I must say that so far as railway building in Cape Breton is concerned he has done nothing for us, and I hope that he will not throw any obstacles in the way of further development in railway matters in the island of Cape Breton if the opportunity should come his way. But for the present I am not dealing with that subject. I believe that the minister is just where he was on the management of the Intercolonial. There is no triumph, so far as the member for Colchester is concerned, and I feel that the minister will keep the management himself instead of getting any outside divine aid; and I hope that he will have the trains stop at Grand Narrows as before.


Mr. R. B. BENNETT (Calgary):: Mr. Speaker, during the few years I have been in this Parliament I have been accustomed year after year to hear members discuss the Intercolonial as though it were a property in which the people of the lower provinces alone were interested. No more fatal misapprehension, it seems to me, could prevail than that. I claim, as one who was born in the lower provinces and who now lives in Western Canada, to have as great an interest, in fact, if not a greater interest in the Intercolonial than the gentlemen who now represent constituencies in the Maritime Provinces. The Intercolonial railway is not in any sense a Maritime Province project only. It is a railway system in the operation of which the whole of Canada is vitally concerned. It is a railway system whose terminals must serve Western Canada if we are to maintain national ports. It is a railway system over which must be carried in winter the major part of the traffic which must give it revenue, -and upon the success of the West and the ability of our people to produce traffic for that road, to no small extent depends not only its prosperity but the future of the great ports of Halifax and St. John. I

regret very greatly to hear gentlemen in this House year after year discuss Intercolonial questions as though they affected individuals only in the counties in which they live.
For a single moment look at the history of that road. It was built as part of the Confederation compact. It was built away from the frontier in order that it might serve a great military purpose, and in order, if occasion necessitated and conditions warranted, that troops might be moved from the East without traversing foreign territory. The wisdom, if you will, of the choice of route has to some extent been vindicated by recent events, and that road, whose construction was part of the Confederation compact or agreement, has, in the largest, the truest and the best sense, served this nation and this Empire since 1914 as has no other piece of track within it.
I should like to remind my friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley)-who, with his usual sophistry, has endeavoured to blame where he should have praised-that no single track in Canada has discharged greater duties, carried more freight and passengers safely, than has the Inter. colonial since the beginning of this war. Let me say that a number of the difficulties under which the Intercolonial is now suffering may be directly traced to observations such as this House has listened to this afternoon. Might I ask my friends, especially my friends from the Maritime Provinces, in the light of the history to which I have referred, to think of the hundreds of millions of dollars of Canadian money that has been poured into that enterprise, conceived as a term of Confederation, and built under very difficult conditions.


William Pugsley: Hundreds of millions, does the hon. gentleman say?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Hundreds of millions into the Intercolonial.


William Pugsley: Oh, no.


Richard Bedford Bennett: From first to last?


William Pugsley: No.


Richard Bedford Bennett: If I had the blue book at hand I could give the figures.


William Pugsley: Hundreds of millions is a pretty broad term.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Certainly it is.


William Pugsley: I do not think it is correct.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Perhaps the hon. member for Pictou will send across the blue book containing the figures. I have them in my head, but my memory may be inaccurate. That investment is a charge against the people of Canada as a whole, not against the Maritime Provinces. It is an investment upon which interest is being paid by the people of this Dominion, the man in Western Canada as well as the man in Eastern Canada. We must look upon the Intercolonial Railway as a vast national enterprise. It was for that reason that the late Mr. Blair extended it into the city of Montreal. Every one who remembers the conditions under which that road was being operated to Levis will remember the policy upon which hon. gentlemen opposite extended it into Montreal. ' It was that in fact and in deed it might become a national enterprise. This being a national enterprise touching our only two ocean winter ports, St. John and Halifax, we find that from year to year it had a long series of deficits which were charged against the people of Canada as a whole and had to be paid by the taxpayer of British Columbia as well as by the taxpayer of Nova Scotia. Better business management was demanded. When the Railway Act was revised and the Railway Commission created, there was a strong movement on the part of many thoughtful public men in Canada to bring the Intercolonial Railway under the jurisdiction of the Railway Commission. But, unfortunately, for political reasons, Mr. Blair was not able to do it. Only yesterday I heard the hon. member for St. John City say that he could never quite understand why the Intercolonial and Government roads were not brought under the Commission-and I quite agree. I agree that the time has come when the Intercolonial Railway should be under the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada; when freight and passenger charges should ibe regulated not by political considerations, but by the nature and character of the services rendered. I hope that before the minister has concluded the revision of the Railway Act it will be found possible to bring that road under the Railway 'Commission. The hon.
9 p.m. member for St. John City agreed with that view when he was speaking yesterday in the Railway Committee. I should like as a western man to say this to the House: If we who live upon the plains could enjoy the same freight rates -as you who live along the
50 i
Intercolonial, we would be the most joyous and happy people you ever heard or dreamed of. I wonder if this House realizes that the rates prevailing on the Intercolonial Railway in the province of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island are all the way from 25 to 78 per cent less than those we pay upon the plains for the same services.


James Joseph Hughes: They correspond
with the rates generally in fprce in the Maritime Provinces.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They correspond
with the rates in the Maritime Provinces, the hon. gentleman says: But we have it on the authority of the hon. member for North Cape Breton, who has just taken his seat, that there are no other lines there.


James Joseph Hughes: As far as the Canadian
Pacific Railway goes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The Canadian
Pacific Railway dpes not go beyond St. John with its own rails. The lines that are operated in Nova Scotia other than those of the Government have their own rates, because we have not competition within . that territory, as my hon. friend knows. In Prince Edward Island the only line is the Government road.


William Pugsley: I have the figures here to which my hon. friend was referring a moment ago. So far from being several hundred millions, the total cost of the Intercolonial railway and connected railways is given on page 88 of the Public Accounts as $106,291,552.


John Dowsley Reid: Does that include equipment?


William Pugsley: It says: "Intercolonial
and connected railways."


John Dowsley Reid: But not equipment.


William Pugsley: The amount for canals is $98,000,000. The expenses of canals and the expenses of the Intercolonial railway run pretty nearly together.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The hon. member for St. John city is quite right. He said it was less than $100,000,000; I said over.


William Pugsley: You said several hundred millions.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I was wrong in that, because I was including the Transcontinental railway, now being operated as a Government road. Those were the figures I had in mind.


William Pugsley: The Transcontinental is a different road altogether.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The figures I had in mind were those applicable to roads now operated by the Government. That is why I may have confused the figures for the moment.


William Pugsley: The Transcontinental was so unimportant that it was forgotten.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, it is such a monument to the incapacity of hon. gentlemen opposite that I did not care to refer to it.


William Pugsley: We appreciate the hon. gentleman's consideration.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I thank my hon. friend from St. John for appreciating my consideration, but I do not think the epitaph has yet been wholly written.
Having referred to these deficits and to the efforts of ministers to remedy them, let us look the facts fairly in the eye.
When this Government came into power I happened to know the policy of the present Minister of Railways. Having been born, as I have said, in 'New Brunswick, I took a considerable interest in the Intercolonial railway. It suffered and has suffered from the evil of political patronage, and it will suffer from that evil just so long as it is not under the jurisdiction of the Railway Commission. There never was a more perfect political machine anywhere than the Intercolonial railway in the time of Hon. Mr. Emmerson. A more perfect political machine could not be conceived, devised and operated than the Intercolonial during the last five years of the fifteen years of Liberal administration. I do not blame them; they were merely improving on conditions as they found them-that is all. I remember discussing the question of the Intercolonial with the Minister of Railways and Canals when the present Administration came into power. He had in his mind two fixed ideas. The first was that the principle of public ownership might be vindicated and the Intercolonial railway saved to the people of Canada. For be it known that the late Minister of Railways and Canals had agreed to hand over the Intercolonial railway to the Canadian Northern interests if the then Government would be sustained in the coming general election. I did not get that second-hand from any one; I have it first hand from the people themselves. The present Minister of Railways did not be-

lieve that the road should be handed over to a private corporation, be it the Canadian Pacific or the Canadian Northern. What he did was to endeavour, with what success I shall presently relate, to bring about such a condition as would vindicate the principle of public ownership of that utility. How did he endeavour to do that? He endeavoured to do it first of all by business management, and, secondly, by the corollary of that, the elimination of patronage. So far as the first point is concerned, what he did was this: he asked the Canadian /Pacific Railway Company for the best railway manager they could give him, and they suggested Mr. Gutelius. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company had had Mr. Gutelius in their employ for many years. The hon. member for Pictou suggested here this evening that he was a German. Mr. Gutelius is a Dutchman by descent and not a German.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I did not say that he was German; I said that he had lived in Canada for fifteen years without having taken out Canadian citizenship.


Richard Bedford Bennett: My hon. friend said
that he was of German extraction; I took the words down at the time.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I said that he was a German-American.


Richard Bedford Bennett: He is not a German-
American, and never was. The ancestors of Mr. Gutelius lived in the United States and have lived upon the American continent for a longer period of years than the ancestors of the distinguished gentleman from Pictou. They have been on this continent something like three hundred years, I am advised. Well, not that long; 250 or thereabouts.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Take another hundred or two off.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: He must be Indian.


Richard Bedford Bennett: 
William Pugsley: Fifty feet?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Fifty feet of
snow.


William Pugsley: Was that on the level?


Richard Bedford Bennett: That was not on the level. According to hon. gentlemen opposite, one would neveT expect to find anything on the level so far as the Intercolonial is concerned. But the climatic conditions under which that road has to be operated in northern New Brunswick -and Quebec makes it most difficult, and no gentleman knows better than the hon. member for St. John wh-at those difficulties are. The general manager has during the last year been operating his system under exceptional difficulties. First of all, he has had cast upon his line a greater burden than any single line was ever expected to carry. Now that the United States is in the war, our troops and war supplies can be carried by the Canadian Pacific Railway through the state of Maine; prior to that time, however, they could not be, and thus there was thrust upon the Intercolonial a greater burden than any single line ever carried before except some lines west of Lake Superior in the wheat season in the fall of the year. The Intercolonial has discharged that duty fairly well. I have it from the words of an important transportation man in this -country that what has been done by Mr. Gutelius since the outbreak of the war in relation to the management to the Intercolonial has been most commendable, and should merit the commendation of thoughtful Canadians vho know the conditions. It is so easy to criticise. The hon. member for North Cape Breton has been fair about that. As long as the road is operated in the way it is, I suppose it will be criticised, but there is no appreciation on the part of the people of the enormous volume of traffic that road has handled.
The hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) spoke this afternoon about the suburban trains being taken off and there not being the same service. I should like to remind him that on the Canadian Pacific, the Grand Trunk, and the Canadian Northern, by order of the Board of Railway Commissioners last fall, their train services were curtailed, because it was necessary in the public interest that it should

be so. If that be so, and Mr. Gutelius has followed that practice on the Intercolonial, who is this high-souled and1 high-minded patriot who has spoken this afternoon in order to make a little political capital? If the 'hon. gentleman seeks to know what is the matter with the Intercolonial, one of the difficulties it suffers from to-day is that there is no . appreciation on the part of members of Parliament and others throughout the territory which it covers of the enormous difficulties it has had to overcome in the matter of handling the business of the country during the last eighteen months. How many hon. members have visited Halifax and seen the freight handled by the Intercolonial there? How many have seen what that road has done in relation to traffic handled since the war broke out? Let them ask the representatives of the British transport system what they think of it.' I prefer their judgment to that of the hon. member for St. John who, for a little cheap clap-trap political capital, has spoken in this House today-and he is not one of those who do not know. He has eyes, but he sees not, and ears but he hears not, lest seeing or hearing he might he converted by the truth. We listened this afternoon to the speech of that hon. gentleman condemning the service and in that calm . way of his talking of wrecks-he did not talk of wars, but of wrecks; he did not talk of the sawdust wharves of by-gone days, but he said there was bad track. It was not the Leary wharf, but bad track. When I hear an hon. gentleman of the years, experience, training, and knowledge of the hon. member for St. John, in a deliberative assembly like the House of Commons of Canada, condemn a railway because there is a wreck, I know that one of two things has happened: either he has a false perspective or he is lacking in the essential elements of patriotism to his country. It is either one of the two things. In this case it is both. With a lack of perspective that is not what I would expect of him in the days that I knew him, he speaks of wrecks as indicating negligence on the part of the Minister of Railways. The Pennsylvania railroad lost in killed and injured 55 passengers the other day, the first they have lost for many years, although they have steel equipment, 90 pound rails and the finest locomotives in the world, because in the last analysis you have to depend upon the human equation, and humanity is frail; it 
may fail in relation to up-keep or to the handling of the locomotive; it may fail in any way. Appliances may fail. Therefore, a man, who, for the sake of cheap political capital, will endeavour to make the people believe, especially in the middle of a great war, that he is speaking in their behalf when he criticises the operations of a railway which has handled hundreds of thousands of his fellow Canadians without the loss of one, and millions of tons of freight for the Allies, is unworthy the name of a Canadian ex-minister of the Crown. He says that the public service has failed. If there has been a lessening of the public service, why should there not be? If the Canadian Pacific, the Grand Trunk and the Canadian Northern are ordered by Sir Henry Drayton to cut down their service, why should the general manager of the Intercolonial not cut down his service. Speaking for my constituents, I voice their .protest with my own when I say that we object to pay unnecessary deficits to keep up the .service on the Intercolonial in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. The hon. member is criticising the service because it may influence a small vote in some suburban neighbourhood round about the city of St. John, and the voters may think, how great and glorious is my hon. friend. That is false perspective and false patriotism.
One word more and I shall have concluded. The hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) was interested in a family quarrel, as he called it. He was more interested in the house of Stanfield than in the house of George, and he was much more interested in the change in the fortunes of the house of Stanfield than he was in the administration of a great public utility. As one hon. gentleman beside me says, he was much more interested in the unshrinkables than in the dye-hards. I do not know just what that means. Now I put it to my hon. friend, who after all is a fair-minded Scotchman-some of my hon. friends doubt whether he is fair-minded, but I can assure them that beneath that somewhat rough exterior there beats a very kindly heart; he can be fair-minded although he does not always show it. I should like to ask my hon. friend from Pictou if he does not believe that the Intercolonial during the last twenty-four months has discharged very great public duties in a manner of which any Canadian might well be proud?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I know a great deal more about the Intercolonial than my hon.

friend does, for he has only travelled over it once or twice, and I would say in all seriousness that the Intercolonial has absolutely failed to perform its national duty in this the greatest crisis in our history.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And the hon.
gentleman beside him (Mr. Pugsley) applauds. It fills him with great glee to think that a public utility operated by this Government is not discharging its duty. He rejoices in it. Let me ask my hon. friend from Pictou what he has done for the Intercolonial? What word of encouragement has he spoken to the men toiling eighteen hours a day to make it successful? What word of	comfort has he
offered to the general manager whom he has vilified and slandered to-night? What effort has he made in the public weal to make the Intercolonial a greater national asset than it has been? That is the question.	What	constructive
suggestions have we heard from him this evening? We have heard a long tirade of criticism and violent denunciation of the nationalities of the men charged with high responsibilities, but we have not heard a word of constructive suggestion; or of help or comfort for those who have toiled in season and out of season to enable the road to carry 300,000 of our fellow-citizens to the sea.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: My hon. friend will find that in the session of 1915-1916, standing in my place in Parliament, I called the attention of the railway officials to the extra duty that would be imposed upon them in connection with the war, and pleaded with them to provide in advance the necessary equipment to meet the conditions; but they absolutely failed to do so.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The equipment was ordered. But a single track railway cannot do the impossible, and you cannot doubletrack the Intercolonial railway in war time. But if we had had the rails and the money that have been uselessly sunk between Quebec and Moncton on the National Transcontinental-


William Pugsley: Will my hon. friend allow me to ask him a question? Does he deny what I state as a fact, that a very large proportion of the traffic properly belonging to the Intercolonial has been carried over the Transcontinental between Moncton and Quebec?


Richard Bedford Bennett: The hon. gentleman states it as a fact, and his statement of a
fact is always entitled to the consideration it deserves.


William Pugsley: The Minister of Railways also knows it to be a fact.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That.will make a difference, but he has not so told me.


William Pugsley: Is this a double-track road between those points?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I wish it were a double-track road, because a double-track road means that traffic going in one direction travels on one line, and traffic in the other direction on the other.


William Pugsley: That is how the through traffic is operated.


Richard Bedford Bennett: My hon. friend knows much better than I that the operation of the National Transcontinental between Quebec and Moncton has not paid its operating costs.


William Pugsley: If my hon. friend will make inquiry he will find that every day during the past year a large number of trains containing fifty, sixty and sometimes seventy oars, pass over the Transcontinental.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The more trains the greater the deficit on that line.


William Pugsley: The grade is twice as low as on the Intercolonial.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I thought my hon. friend knew enough about railway matters to know that the greater the number of trains on that section of the Transcontinental the greater the deficit. It is through traffic, and all it gets is its proportion of the through rate, and the through rate has to be so low that the carriage of the traffic over that road means a deficit every time a wheel is turned.


William Pugsley: Is my hon. friend not aware that the reason why the Intercolonial authorities have carried such an enormous proportion of the traffic over the Transcontinental is because of its low grades? One locomotive can haul so many more cars than on the Intercolonial.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is the lowest-grade argument I have heard for a long time. My hon. friend is mistaken.


William Pugsley: Will my hon. friend answer my question?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes I will, promptly. It is not so.


William Pugsley: It is so.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And the hon. member for St. John knows that on that portion of the Transcontinental between Quebec and Moncton the traffic has not paid the operating costs, outside altogether of a single cent of interest on the enormous investment made, and that in the opinion of the best railway experts on the American continent this country would be well served is that there has been no politics in the In-another part of Canada.


William Pugsley: Does the hon. gentleman deny that vast quantities of freight have been carried by the Intercolonial authorities of the Transcontinental?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I say this, and I desire to say it as strongly as I can, that to the extent to which that line could be used, it has been used to keep the rails from rusting; that is the position.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The hon. member had
better go over that road once, and he would then change his opinion.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The road travels through territory served by that distinguished servant of the State, the hon. member from 'Carleton, and so it must be a good .one.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have seen trains on
the Transcontinental pulling seventy-five loaded cars, and as many as ten such trains a day. On the Intercolonial you cannot pull thirty cars with the best engine you have.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am sorry the
hon. gentleman can count so well on the Transcontinental, and that his vision is s.o obscured on the Intercolonial.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Go over the road and
find out for yourself. You don't know now.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I have seen trains on the Intercolonial with more than thirty or fifty cars. But of course one has a double vision when the traffic is travelling upon one's own pet railway, and a little political capital can be made out of it. The hon. member for Carleton knows as well as any man living, that the r.oad has not justified its existence, in view of the capital expenditure involved in its construction, and never will so far as the present generation is concerned, and that the best masters of American transporation declare not only that the rails should never have been laid, but that they should now be taken up and laid somewhere else where they could be used profitably.

One word about political patronage. As an humble member of the Conservative party ever since the day I was able to think, I go down to the lower provinces occasionally, and the one bitter complaint I have always heard since the year 1911 when the present Government took charge, is that there has been no politics in the intercolonial.
It is the old game on the part of the Liberal party-to charge political administration of the Intercolonial and thus draw a red herring across the trail, while they keep their friends in office on the road. It is so everywhere. It has been so since this war began. They denounce the Tories for putting Tories into office, but when you analyze the facts you will find that the Grits have the jobs, and their friends seek to keep them there by denouncing the Tories for using patronage. It is one of the cleverest schemes of hon. gentlemen opposite. But, on the other hand, you find Tories condemning the management of the Intercolonial for leaving the Liberals in their positions. Down in Moncton and in Westmorland 'how did they vote? Did they vote condemnation of the Government? No. They voted because they were Liberals left over from 1911.


William Pugsley: That is not what the
people of Moncton and the railway employees there will tell you. They will tell you that there is no justification for the conduct of the officials of the Intercolonial in the treatment of the men.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley) has raised a second point to Which I wish to refer. The first point was patronage, and the second the low rates. No road in Canada, and with one exception, none on the American continent, has as low freight rates as the Intercolonial. I challenge any hon. gentleman to contravert that statement. Give us in Western Canada the rates that are charged on the Intercolonial and our people will add enormously to their returns. These rates are maintained at the cost of the whole people of Canada, and we have the right to demand efficient administration of the road. But under the devilikh patronage system which grew up prior to 1911, and of which there is no greater disciple than the hon. gentleman from Carleton-


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Did the hon. gentleman (Mr. R. B. Bennett) ever hear about the train that was put on between Moncton and Shediac two weeks before the election and was taken off the day after it?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, it was a replacement of a train that used to be there and which had been taken off for efficiency, but the politicians demanded that it should be put back again.
, Mr. CARVELL: Taken off live years ago.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, only five
months ago, and put back again at the demand of politicians, Tory politicians-and I denounce the Tory politicians for that as much as I do the men whom they feebly imitate.


William Pugsley: I thought the hon. gentleman said that there was no patronage, yet !he admits that a train was put on a couple of weeks before an election and then, they having lost the election., it was taken off the day after.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The hon. gentleman did not follow me. I said that the minister endeavoured to conduct the Intercolonial without patronage, but that our own people have not accepted his position but have bitterly complained and criticized him. Yet the principle for which he contended, the principle of Government ownership of that public utility, depends upon a non-political, efficient, business administration. The minister entrusted it to the hands of the general manager, and that general manager, free from political control, might have been able to carry that principle into full effect. But heirs of all the ages though we be, beneficiaries of all the past with regard to the Intercolonial, it was not possible wholly to divorce the administration of the road from politics in a single moment, and the result has been that the minister has been subject to criticism on the part of his own friends. And hon. gentlemen opposite, instead of assisting to maintain and vindicate the principle of public ownership, have taken every opportunity in their power to stimulate criticism and stir the antipathies of the people, in order to make them believe that they are ill-used, although the Government was making a supreme effort to manage this road, not for the people of the Maritime Provinces alone, but for all the people, against the control of a private corporation to which it was to be handed over.


William Pugsley: Does that explain the putting on of election trains?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Certainly. Because in the days of the last election, it was not one election train but a whole series of
them, with free tickets handed out by political workers with a view to securing votes. I know this, for I was down there shortly afterwards.
I see that my hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) has the following notice of motion on the Order Paper:
That, in the opinion of this House, the prevailing system of party patronage constitutes a menace to honest and efficient government, incites to great waste of resources and1 extravagance, in its application to expenditures and' appointments for military purposes, greatly injures the proper fulfilment of our duty to the nation, tends inevitably to corrupt and lower the tone of public morals and should forthwith be eliminated from our Federal administration.
Noble words ! High sentiments ! Lofty aspirations ! But my hon. friend from Pictou and my hon. friend from St. John believe in these things in the abstract. The resolution is put there as a means of throwing dust in the eyes of the people, as the hon. gentleman says the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Stanfield) has been doing. But if hon. gentlemen opposite were sincere, they would have practiced something of these virtues which they profess in opposition.
I do feel that the members of this House should look upon the Intercolonial railway as something more than two lines of steel owned by the people of the lower provinces. My hon. friend from Kings, Prince Edward Island (Mr. J. J. Hughes) failed to tell the House, when he talked of lack of equipment, that he was speaking of a narrow-gauge road, one in which standard equipment cannot be used.


James Joseph Hughes: We had that information thirty years ago.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I did not know that the hon. gentleman had received it yet, and one would not have supposed that he had it from the way he spoke. I am glad that his constituents had the information thirty years ago, and that he has discovered it to-night. But, in fairness, he should have stated the fact to the House. It is not to be expected that the facilities of a narrow gauge road can be maintained in as high a state of efficiency as those of a standard road. Speaking as one from Western Canada who is interested in the Intercolonial and the work it does, interested in the vast terminals being completed at St. John and Halifax-


William Pugsley: Whereabouts at St. John?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Then, when my hon. friend ran an election in 1896 on the cry of better terms for St. John he was merely bluffing because St. John is without all these better facilities yet.


William Pugsley: The work is stopped.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The work is stopped in the midst fut the war and I dare say some revenue is stopped a bit also. But it may be that in the midst of war you have to stop some work. That shows the insincerity of my hon. friend when he asks the Government to stop some public undertakings in the midst of the war. If -it should happen that the undertakings are near home it is all bad; if it should happen that they are near some other person's home it is all right. That may be politics but it is not statecraft in the middle of a great war. This House has a right to ask that the Intercolonial shall be so operated, conducted and managed as to sh.ow no deficits but to maintain an equilibrum between revenue and expenditure so that the axiom, or the principle, upon which transportation facilities are provided, may be maintained. What is the principle?-that they who use must pay. With reference to transportation, if the facilities do not pay for themselves in revenue, the rate should be so raised as to enable the revenue to pay the expenditures. The people of the lower provinces objected so strongly a few months ago when the management increased the rates upon the road that the rates had to be reduced again. Under a railway commission that would not happen. I say once more that I have no interest in the Intercolonial except the large interest that every man has who lives in Canada, no interest except to see that it properly serves the great ports of Halifax and St. John. St. John is served, it is true, by the Canadian Pacific, but Halifax is served only by the Intercolonial. I hope, Sir, to see the day when great ships crossing the Atlantic, as the Mauretania did in 90 hours, may be able to land passengers at Halifax at the splendid terminals there, swinging in 'alongside of the dock without tugs, without having to turn the vessel to come in to that magnificent terminal, and being able to embark passengers at the dock head and setting them down in Chicago two days sooner than they could arrive by way of New York. That is one of the things we should contemplate the possibility of and if we are true to the vast and matchless opportunities that lie before us, by reason 
of the great harbour at Halifax for passengers, by reason of the harbour at St. John for freight traffic, and by reason of this Intercolonial railway, that has been built up with the revenues of the people of Canada, we will be able to discharge some of the duties that we owe alike to Canadians and to the people pf the other parts of the Empire, and in addition, we will be able to make this a country of which all men shall be proud. The hon. member for St. John stands here in the midst of a great war, denounces the management of the Intercolonial and tries to make us believe that the men in charge of that road are inefficient, that men should be elevated to high positions whether they are qualified or not as long as seniority or something else is observed, that men should be promoted without regard to fitness" ,or to the fact that they are bringing discredit on their own country by not giving assistance to those who are labouring to promote the success of the operation of that great road.


William Pugsley: I desire to make a correction of the hon. gentleman. Neither I nor any member on this side of the House said that men should be promoted regardless of fitness. What we do claim is that the Intercolonial has had for years many men fitted to take higher positions in connection with the management of the railway.	-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does my hon. friend not know that in the administration of the Canadian Pacific, the Pennsylvania and every other great railway system they have regard to one thing only, and that i3 fitness?


William Pugsley: And promotion.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In OTder that a road might be 100 per cent efficient a man of 25, possessing the qualifications, might be placed over a man of 45 or 65. In the administration of a great public trust, such as the Intercolonial is, that road must ultimately depend upon, first of all, an efficient general manager, and, secondly, he, on his part, must have a free 'hand to select the instruments to carry out his directions from the standpoint of efficiency without regard to political considerations. On that principle and for that purpose this House will lend its assistance to the Minister of Railways and Canals, who has endeavoured to follow that line, although he has not received that great measure of assistance he should have received even from his own

people. I believe that in the end it will be found that the Intercolonial has entered upon an era of prosperity based upon business management that will reflect credit noit only upon the Government, or the set of men who may devise policies and who have the courage to carry them forward regardless of party consideration, but upon the Canadian people who are endeavouring and who are willing and anxious to make out of their public facilities and their transportation system a success comparable to that of any privately-owned enterprise.


Mr. O. TURGEON (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, before the debate closes, I wish to make a few remarks. I do not rise with the intention of answering the eloquent remarks of the hon. member for Calgary (Mr. Bennett). He has made an appeal to the sense of the Canadian people and he has told us that the Intercolonial railway is not merely the property of the people of the Maritime Provinces and that it is not merely for the interest of the people of that part of Canada. If my hon. friend had been here twelve or fifteen years ago he might have heard many of us, including myself, declare in this House that the construction of the Intercolonial railway was not for the especial benefit of the Maritime Provinces but that it was built as a national enterprise for the benefit of the provinces of the west as they grow, and as they will grow in the future, as much as for the benefit of the Maritime Provinces themselves. The pact of Confederation was not made with the intention of keeping apart the Maritime Provinces from the provinces of the west. It was made with the intention of making one race, one nationality, with a great future before it, and possessing great industries and commercial interests. My hon. friend has told us that if the deficits continue on the Intercolonial the rest of the people will not be prepared to stand by those deficits. That is not a national, or a Canadian utterance, in my judgment. What would the hon. member for Calgary say if I were to tell him that I, as a member from the Maritime Provinces, will not stand by the expenditures for the construction and maintenance of the canals of Ontario from which we have no direct benefit? The canals of Ontario are national enterprises in the same sense as the Intercolonial, or any other railway to which our support may be extended, is. We do not come here for the purpose of pleading. I believe myself as broadminded a Canadian
as any member of this House or as any man in this country from the Atlantic to the Pacific.. My interests are in the west as much as in the east, but at the same time, how can we expect that we should not be allowed to claim on the part of the people we represent what we look for from the administration of any department of Government. The administration of the Intercolonial is in the hands of the Department of Railways and Canals. We have the same minister in charge of the canals and the Intercolonial railway. I do not speak for the Maritime Provinces with the intention of making apologies to the western part of Canada. We have come into Confederation and although we have not come with all the natural resources possessed by Ontario or Quebec we have come with vast harbours planted along our coasts, We have vast harbours planted along our coast, as Joseph Howe said, by the hand of Providence, not merely for the use and advantage of the Maritime Provinces, but more particularly for the use and advantage of the western provinces. Without the ports of Saint John and Halifax, without the advantage of the coast of the Maritime Provinces, the people of Ontario and the West to-day would be at the mercy of the collectors of customs of Boston and New York, and there would be no Confederation and no Canada. When we ask for improvements in the management of the Intercolonial, we do n,ot come as beggars from any other portion of Canada, but simply exercise our right, as has been .done by my hon. friend ifr.om Calgary to-day.
I rose merely to discharge my duty as a member for a constituency traversed by the Intercolonial, and to express my sympathy with the principle involved in the motion now before the House. I shall not attempt to vouch for all the statements he has given to the House, but shall leave it to the minister to ascertain their correctness. The hon. member for Calgary intimated that the members on this side of the House desired promotions to be made irrespective of ability or qualification. I heard no such suggestion this afternoon, and I am sure that the intention of the resolution is that such promotion should be made only among officials who have shown the capacity, the adaptability and the ability to fill the positions to which they may be called. It is in the general interest of the nation that such promotions should be made. The hon. member for Calgary suggested that the Intercolonial

should be placed on the same level as a corporation railway. Every corporation railway, in the interests of its service, seeks to give promotion to its employees as they develop and show ability for better employment. That is the best 'security they can give to the public.
My hon. friend has spoken of the deficits on the Intercolonial under the Liberal Administration. Every one knew at the time of Confederation that the Intercolonial for many years would have to meet annual deficits, but it was felt that the great advantages which would flow from the operation of the railroad in linking together the portions of this great country would far exceed the small amounts that we would have to pay from year to year until we attained the development of this country foreseen by tlhe fathers of Confederation as brightly as any one of u's sees it to-day. I am not attacking any deficit that may occur under the administration of my hon. friend. It may be that this year, owing to war conditions and the exceptionally unfavourable climatic conditions, a deficit will be unavoidable. I do not object to that; we will have to pay what is necessary fpr the maintenance of a good national road that will develop the interests of the country. It has been reported that this year a great many accidents have occurred on the Intercolonial, more perhaps than on any other road; but the conditions have been most extraordinary. Not for many years have we had a winter in Eastern Canada which made the operation of railroads so difficult. But, of course, in former years we have had hard winters and have had to compete with them, and the ministers of former days encountered the same difficulties that have confronted my hon. friend this year.
Eeturning to the main motion, I desire to support a suggestion made by my hon. friend from Rimouski (Mr. Boulay) as to a division between Campbellton and Rimouski, the division lying between the provinces of Quebec and New Brunswick. I do this not because I should like tp see a division of the people of the provinces; but because conditions have changed in the last few years, and the change has impressed itself on me as one living in the northern district of New Brunswick, not a long distance from the province of Quebec. Conditions have changed in this respect, that the officials of the section Moncton-Ste. Flavie have been given during the past few years a greatly extended line to
[Ur. Turgeon.]
manage. They have been given the Fredericton railway from Newcastle to Fredericton and, a year ago, the International railway, which has been taken over by the Railway Department. Both of these roads have been given to the same officials at Campbellton. It may therefore be that that district would have sufficient work in the development of the trade which is bound to accrue more particularly along the line of the International if that road is to be given a good service. I believe that more attention might be given to that road than it has received since the Intercolonial took it over. It might he that it would he better to make one division from Moncton to Campbellton and extend the division from Levis or Riviere du Loup to Campbellton. On that division it would perhaps be asier for the department and the Minister of Railways and Canals to have employees speaking both languages, French and English, as requested, naturally and rightly, by the people of the province of Quebec. The	minister
has said that he	would	consider
any suggestions that might be made. I have all possible sympathy for the hon. minister, and when I refer to a particular incident I do not wish to hold him responsible for it. I may tell him, however, that there are many instances of political doings in the sections of the country traversed by the Intercolonial railway of which he may not be aware. This, perhaps, is due to the fact that the local politicians are using their influence in a way that the minister would condemn. I am sure that !hg will condemn this influence as represented in a particular case which I shall bring to his attention. In northern New Brunswick the local Conservative politicians have been very active during the past four or five years.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They are a bad lot.


Onésiphore Turgeon: So far as the Conservative politicians in my county are concerned, I adopt the expression of the hon. member for Carleton. They have been trying to use kaiserism in their administration of the political part of the Intercolonial Railway. If a man does not promise to vote for the Conservative party and to condemn everything done by the Liberal party, he will get no employment from these people either as workingman or section man. The case that I want to bring to the attention of the minister will astonish him, and will show that there exists a great deal of that partisanship which the hon. member for

Calgary condemned so forcibly a few moments ago. The man whose case I refer to has 'been in the employ of the Intercolonial Railway since 1900. I remember the day when he was appointed section man; he had been section foreman for seven years previous to that time on the Canadian Pacific railway and had come back to his native place, Petit Rocher, in the province of New Brunswick. The trouble arose not through a question of duty, but through a quarrel with Ihis foreman. I should say, rather, that it was a family quarrel. His foreman was his brother-in-law, and, as very often happens in such oases, they disagreed. There were some heated words at dinner hour, the matter was investigated and the result was that the politician of the locality had a reason for saying that he should not be further employed. Not very long ago the Conservative politicians told this man that if he would sever his connection with the Liberal party and proclaim himself ready to do the bidding of the Conservative politicians, he would get his position again. They told him that if he would write a letter to that effect to the Conservative candidate, he would be once more installed in his position. When I heard of this I thought that I could easily afford to lose two or three votes in Gloucester county for the sake of justice, so I advised the man to make such a declaration and to send such a letter. He refused to do so, and he has not yet been reinstated in his position. This is the condition in the county of Gloucester to which I wish to call the attention of the Minister of Railways and Canals; most probably the same condition prevails in many of the other counties on the north shore of the province of New Brunswick. Certainly this man's dismissal was not based on good grounds; he lost his position simply because he happened to be a Liberal, and he is kept out of it because he does not wish to make a declaration of faith against his conscience or against his political principles. I am sure that the Minister of Railways and Canals feels as I do, that this man has been ill-treated. I have no criticism to offer to the minister him-10 p.m. self, but if he will allow me, I shall make another suggestion. The minister has for some time past not enjoyed good health-to the sorrow of every member of this House and of the people of Canada. This year he seems to have more viltality and is willing, as usual, to give all the attention possible to the administration of the Government Railways. He has extended his system over the Transcontinental as far as Winnipeg. I will not stop to deny the accusations made by the member for Calgary concerning the construction of the Transcontinental. I shall do that upon some other occasion; it would require a special debate if we were to discuss that question. My hon. friend has giveh notice of a Bill concerning the construction of highways. I believe that he should withdraw that Bill and give his sole attention to the administration of the government railways. If he does this, he will be doing as much as his health will permit, and will have sufficient to occupy his time and attention.
I hope that this motion will receive from the Minister of Railways and Canals the attention that it deserves and that promotions will be made among officials of the railway, not indiscriminately, but by the selection of men who have proved themselves worthy of promotion. Reference has been made by the Minister of Customs to Mr. Ppttinger. The hon. gentleman said that the Liberals were condemning his political activity before they came into power. I do not know to what extent that may have been the case, but I do know that when the Liberal party came into power they retained the services of Mr. Pottinger and those services were appreciated m.ore and more each year. He was given a prominent place on the commission appointed by the ex-Minister of Railways and Canals with a view to putting an end to the deficits which the member for Calgary deplored so much this evening. If the present Minister of Railways and Canals, when he came into .office, did not wish to retain the whole commission, he should at least have retained the services of Mr. Pottinger as head of the department. Had he done this he would not have subjected himself to the censure which has come from all parts of the cpuntry	since that	time.
No man in Canada perhaps was better qualified than Mr. Pottinger to remain at the head of the administration of the Intercolonial and of the Government railways. His knowledge and experience were known and appreciated not only in Canada, but in the United States. When he met magnates and chief superintendents and managers of railroads, he had not always to listen to them, but they listened to him, and they had always a great deal to learn in their meetings with him.

As regards the case that I have cited, if the minister wishes me to give him the name of that section man, I shall be glad to do so to-morrow or the next day. I have spoken at greater length than I had anticipated, still my remarks have come from me spontaneously because I felt that the hon. member for Calgary (Mr. Bennett) was not giving justice either to the Liberal party or to the country.


Mr. PIUS MICHAUD (Victoria, N.B.):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to say just a few words with reference to the management of the Intercolonial railway, confining myself to the operation of the Transcontinental railway. I am aware of a great many facts, because I live by the side of this railway and I know what is going on. I can assure the Minister of Railways that during the last six months, not one week has passed without a wreck taking place on that line between Levis and Moncton. I know as a fact that one day there were three trains wrecked on the west side of Edmund-ston and two between Edmundston and Moncton. I am giving these facts because I am aware that the minister is not informed of what is going on so far as this particular branch of the Transcontinental is concerned, I am sorry that the hon. minister has not been properly informed in regard to the management of this railway during the last few months. The people in that section have refused to ship their goods along that line because they never reach their destination. Let me cite an example. Not very long ago a carload of wheat was shipped along that line. There was a big wreck between Moncton and Edmundston and eight cars went into the ditch; the car loaded with wheat opened up, and the wheat scattered all along the track. I have already drawn the attention of my hon. friend to the condition of the road-bed of this particular railroad, and I hope he will take my remarks into consideration, because in a few months from now this railroad will not be able to be operated. There are a great many people working as employees of that railroad between Moncton and Levis. We were accused this afternoon by the hon. member for Rimouski (Mr. Boulay) because people from New Brunswick were working in the province of Quebec. So far as the operation of the railroad is concerned, it is not only the people from one particular province who have the say in the matter; it is the people of Canada. I know a great many of our employees are from the prov-[Mr. Turseon.l
ince of Quebec and are now residing in the province of New Brunswick, but we find no fault except that we like to receive our proper share so far as the number of employees on the road is concerned. The Minister of Customs has said this afternoon that if we are short of good men we can go into the province of Ontario and get competent employees there. We have one good man from Ontario, that is the Minister of Railways. I am sorry he has not 'been well for the last year or two, but we are glad to see him back in good health. I trust he will see his way clear to appoint people from his own province if he cannot find men in the lower provinces, and that he will not go too often to the United States for employees, because I am sure Canada produces as good railway employees as any other country in the world.
I	wish to draw the attention of the minister to the International railway connecting St. Leonard and Campbellton, in the province of New Brunswick. I happened to travel on that road last year and this year, and if I told my hon. friend what I saw in a day or two he would be very much surprised. There are water tanks all along that line of railway which have been frozen since last December, so that they cannot be used until the warmer weather comes, and in the meantime a pumping system has been installed. The men are digging holes along the brooks and rivers and connecting the engine by hose with the water in the brook or river and pumping it in. It takes about two hours to fill up an engine, and while the employees are not to blame because they are paid for their extra time, the travelling public have to suffer on account of the delay in filling up the engine with water. I would like the minister to take this matter into consideration. There are no dining cars and no sleepers on that train, and during last year it never arrived on time. It is due at St. Leonards at 4.20 p.m. to connect with the Canadian Pacific railway and the Transcontinental. The public are getting tired of the management because they have not the proper accommodation, and they are not getting their goods shipped to their points of destination. They have to travel by train because there are no highways between the two places I have mentioned, and they are punished by having to travel on that railroad. There is some talk about the Government taking over all the railways of Canada. From my experience during the last year or two, I think it would be the most unfortunate thing if the Dominion of Canada or the

Government were to take hold of any branch railway. I had a great admiration for the Minister of Railways some time ago, when he mentioned to me that it was his intention to buy out many branch lines of railway; he was sincere in his statement, but the people of New Brunswick are no longer anxious to see the Government operating any branch lines as feeders for the Intercolonial railway. We have had very bad management and we do not wish any more branch lines to be bought by the Government.
In conclusion, I hope my hon. friend will consider the operation of the International railway and of the Transcontinental between Levis and Moncton. The people along the line travel as little as they can because they never reach their destination at the proper time, the trains being slow in leaving and late in arriving at destination. I wish'my hon. friend would take up the idea of running an express between St. Leonard and Campbellton some time next month. He should give us an opportunity to prove that if we had an express between these two places we could make it pay very well.


Herménégilde Boulay: I had no idea that this motion would provide so much discussion, as I brought it up purely for the purpose of criticizing the management of the Intercolonial in the matter of promotions, but before dealing with that I will turn for a moment to the remarks that have been made by my hon. friend from Victoria, N.B. (Mr. Michaud) about the International railway. I corroborate everything he has said about the way the engines were compelled to take water last winter, but it was impossible for the management to do any better, and my hon. friend was certainly wrong in saying that the Government had not done a good service to the population scattered along that line, because if the Government had not taken over the road the people would have had no railway service at all. The road was already going to pieces when the Government took it over two years ago, and they could not have done better than they did last winter; we were very lucky indeed to get the service at all.
If I understood my hon. friend correctly, he suggested that an express train should be put on that branch. I agree with him. As soon as the road bed is good enough, I think it would be in the interests of the Intercolonial to have an express train on this blanch. It would not only increase the passenger traffic, but would be an
accommodation to the settlers scattered along the road, and would help greatly in settling this promising section of New Brunswick.
Coming back to my resolution, I divide it into two parts, the first referring to an injustice done to the old employees in the matter of promotions. In my remarks this afternoon I proved that the employees of the road had been passed by when vacancies occurred, and my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) pointed out that according to an answer he received last year the number of	officials who were	appointed	to	high positions on	the
Intercolonial from other roads was nearly thirty. In no case were these imported men any better than men who could have been chosen from the ranks of the Intercolonial. I have met a good many of these outside men, and so far from being as efficient as the old employees, they do not know the road at all at first, and have to serve a kind of apprenticeship before they can discharge their duties properly. I am not speaking of Mr. Gutelius, because I do not think the Minister of Railways could have selected a better man for the position, and I have never reflected on him in that respect in any of the speeches I have made on the Intercolonial. I repeat what I have said before, that he is a gentleman in e^ery respect, a man of great ability, very polite, and he gives every employee from the highest to the lowest a chance to air any grievance he may have, and I am not aware of any instance where an employee has not got justice. Under the administration of hon. gentlemen opposite, Mr. Brady occupied that position and things were quite different. Not only were the employees not given the opportunity of bringing their cases before him, but even the business men, the patrons of the Intercolonial, could not approach him to discuss business matters. Mr. Gutelius is quite different and can be seen by any of the employees or patrons of the road. The only thing I complain of is that he goes outside in filling the higher positions on the road, and I think that charge is justified by the cases that have been cited this afternoon. I have .mentioned the case of Mr. Devenish and the hon. member from Pictou also spoke of him. It was a great mystery to me why Mr. Devenish was brought to Canada to take the place of Mr. Price. I pleaded then with Mr. Gutelius and the Minister of Railways for justice for the province of Quebec. We had been run by the province

of New Brunswick for forty-five years, and that ninety-two mile section in the province of Quebec had never received its share of patronage in respect to high positions on the Intercolonial. Mr. Gutelius said that Mr. Devenish was there on a kind of an apprenticeship, and that when he was promoted to a higher position I should be able to appoint a superintendent, or at least an assistant-superintendent, from the province of Quebec. This did not satisfy our people in the province of Quebec, but I told them we would soon get justice. I waited, and what happened? Mr. Devenish proved a failure in his administration of the railway. It was clear that he had no capacity for operating that part of the road between Campbellton and Mont Joli, and Mr. Gutelius made him superintendent of a division somewhere near Moncton. Then, instead of giving us justice as he had promised, he appoinnted Mr. Fitzmaurice, against whom I have nothing personally, for he is a gentleman and knows something about the road; in fact, he was brought up on the Intercolonial, and I shall not say much about his promotion. We should have obtained what we were promised. The best way to give us that was to nominate an assistant superintendent. But this was not done. On this ground I criticise the administration of the road. Had I not suggested the name of the man to fill the position I should feel now that 1 had failed in my duty. But I was watching the game, and as soon as the. job was open I suggested the names of three men, all men who had been on the Intercolonial from ten to twenty years and of whose competency for the position there could be no question. There was not the slightest reason to refuse all these and give the position to a man who bad only had four or five [DOT] years' experience, a switchman who knew nothing about running a road, who knew nothing of the population amidst whom his work was to 'be carried on, and who did not understand even a single word of French, though his work was to be amongst a population made up almost exclusively of French-Canadians. And this is the bind of thing that has been going on for forty-five years, ever since the road was built. The people of Nova Scotia do not like to have the part of the road that runs through their province administered by men from British Columbia. I know that, because I travel over the road. Nor do the people along the Intercolonial in Quebec want men from other provinces to occupy high positions in the 
service of the railway there. We want our own situations for our own men. If there were any difficulty about it, I would not grumble; if there were good reasons against it, I would not complain. But the Toad has everything to gain by giving us justice. In the first place, it will take away all the animosities that sometimes exist between the two races when they do not understand each other. If we had a superintendent to cover t'he whole system in the province of Quebec we should have nothing to do with the road in other provinces, and the employees would accomplish theiir duty much better and the relations of all the people would be a good deal more friendly.
. The appointment of these strangers to administer the affairs of the Intercolonial is objectionable from another standpoint. The old employees, seeing these men come to take the places to which they might reasonably have expected to be promoted, instead of fulfilling their duties with enthusiasm, naturally tend to do their work in such a way as merely to avoid trouble. That is the reason why last year, in such a place as the Matapedia valley, the road was blocked for days and days, and twenty-five to thirty-five hours was occupied with a run that ordinarily takes seven hours. But if they had had a superintendent known to them, like Mr. Fitzmaurice, they would have done as they did last winter, when trains (worked smoothly and not a single one was blocked.
I must add a few words in justice to Mr. Gutelius. During the last local election I happened to be in New Brunswick. My hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) does not like to see me interfering in New Brunswick affairs. But I may tell him that I have property in New Brunswick, that my county borders on that province, and that among the settlers along the Intercolonial railway in the county of Resti-gouche ten per cent come from the county of Rimouski. It is only natural on my part to look after their interest when they want to be helped. The population of Resti-gouche is about seventy per cent French, and consequently a French-Ganadian feels pretty well at home when he gets into that county. I was there during the local election, and heard speeches made at a number of meetings. And one of the things 1 heard said with reference to Mr. Gutelius by a frined of hon. gentlemen opposite was this: If we ever get into power at Ottawa we know one thing for sure, and that is that the Intercolonial will not be run by a German. Now, that is not fair.


William Pugsley: Did the hon. gentleman notice in the newspaper published in St. John a statement attributed to the former Attorney General stating that immediately upon the return of Sir Robert Borden from England, as a result of the defeat of the Conservatives in New Brunswick, an effort would be made to dismiss Mr. Gutelius.


Herménégilde Boulay: I am sorry, but I was not able to understand what the hon. gentleman said. I am quoting what I heard with my own ears. The wprds were plain, and they were as I have stated them. I say such a statement is not fair, not only to the country, but also to a gentleman, as Mr. Gutelius is. I know by conversation with him that he is not a German, and I know that he has never acted as a German but as a business man who knows his business and wishes to be fair. He has fulfilled his duty to the best of his ability, and it is most unfair to attempt to create feeling against him. Of course, those to whom this statement about Mr. Gutelius was made did not hear the other side, and believing what they heard they would naturally support (the side favoured by hon. gentlemen opposite.
I am sorry that my hon. friend from Temiscouata (Mr. Gauvreau) is not in his seat. He challenged me to give the names of men imported by the Liberal party to take the places of the old employees of the Intercolonial.
When I spoke this afternoon as to the example which was given by the Liberal party and when I said that they had exceeded anything which * had been done by our own Administration, I was right. I shall quote several names from memory. There was Mr. Russell, who was general manager, Mr. McGovern, who was a track master right in my .own district, Mr. Jough-ins, who is a general machinist, Mr. Brassard assistant superintendent at 'Riviere du Loup, Mr. Harris, Moncton, Mr. Tiffin who was brought from the Grand Trunk ho Moncton, notwithstanding what the hon. member for St. John said about his (being an Intercolonial man, Mr. Oulette, who was appointed superintendent from the outside and whom the Liberal party had to let go after three months trial, Mr. Dube, whom they also brought from the Grand Trunk and finally, land the best of them all, Mr. Brady, I hope my honourable friend from Temiscouata (Mr. Gauvreau) will take note of that and not interrupt me any more while I am telling the truth. Now, with regard to dismissals; this question has been discussed pretty fully during the last five or six years and it is not necessary for me to refer to it again at any very great length. But, I wish to point out that we have been a good deal more lenient than our friends opposite were. In my constituency from Camp-bellton to Levis we have made very few dismissals since we have been in power. We have only put out of office those that were too bad and this was not done without an investigation being given. Since I have .been the representative of my county, I have recommended many Liberals to small positions such as brakemen and firemen and I have done all I could to help the people there without discrimination as to party.
My hon. friend from Carleton (Mr. Car-veil) and my hon. friend from St. John say that the management has been unsatisfactory with regard to the running of trains during the last two years. Any man who has a knowledge of railroading will admit that under the conditions trains could not be run more regularly. The running of the trains has been affected by the conditions and the critical times we are going through. I have looked into the matter very carefully and no man could do better than Mr. Gutelius in running the Intercolonial since the outbreak of war. A<s many trains as possible have been run. Instead of building the Transcontinental railway my hon. friends opposite should have doubletracked the Intercolonial. It would have been a good deal more profitable than to have wasted so many millions in constructing a railroad through a wilderness without any profit to the country.
While I am talking about the Transcontinental, I would like to give the House a bit of my own experience in connnection with that undertaking. I travelled over a part of the railway which has been built west of Quebec. I happened to go 300 miles west of Quebec, and I found on this part of the line evidence of the greatest scandals in the construction of the road. I would invite my hon. friends opposite to visit the Transcontinental west of Quebec, at least as far as Parent, and if they do they will agree with me that a great robbery has been committed in the construction of that road. On the division, covering 100 miles, between Fitzpatrick and Parent the removal of the stones that had fallen on the road, because the work had not been properly done in the first instance, cost the Government last year $10,000.


William Pugsley: Clearing up the track for 100 miles cost $10,000?


Herménégilde Boulay: It cost that to remove the stone that had fallen on the track over a distance of 100 miles, and one small stone of 10,000 pounds fell on a tender one day. That I know because I was told so by the employees.


William Pugsley: What was the effect on the tender of this .10,000 pound stone?


Herménégilde Boulay: I suppose it wrecked the train. It is not a cutting at all; it is just a hole that has been cut through the stones instead of the cuttings* having been made as they should have been, and as they were certainly contracted for. The object seems to have been to construct the road in the quickest possible way, and now every year, until the work is made perfect, we will have to sustain a loss of thousands and thousands of dollars to remove the stone from the tracks that should have been removed at the time of construction.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point of order. I would like to know what phase of the resolution the hon. gentleman is discussing now?	-


Mr. SPEAKER:: I hesitate to call the hon. member for Rimouski to order because he is closing a debate that has taken a very wide range to-day, but the point of order taken by the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria is sound. The hon. gentleman, I think, is very far from the subject, and at this hour of the night it would be well to get back to it.


Herménégilde Boulay: I think I have said enough to give an illustration of the bad administration of hon. gentlemen opposite. To conclude, I hope my remarks will be taken in good part by the Minister of Railways. I think he knows what we want in that part of the province of Quebec which I have the honour to represent. We do not want Mr. Gutelius to be taken away. He is a man of great ability, and he gives satisfaction generally to the people in his administration. What we want for the old employees is more encouragement, more promotions. The system of promotion that has been applied, as I have heard ministers say, in their own departments, should be applied to the Intercolonial railway. I hope that in future the people of the part of the province of Quebec in which I live will get justice so that we shall have no reason for criticism.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On motion of Sir Thomas White, the House adjourned at 10.50 p.m.
Thursday^ April 26, 1917.