1917-06-01

STRIKE AT SOREL.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX:: I understand that two or three hundred men in the Government shops at Sorel ha\re declared a strike and that the Government have decided to close the shops for a fortnight. May I ask the Minister of Marine and Fisheries whether any arrangement has been arrived at?


Hon. J. D. HAZEN (Minister of Marine):: We had some trouble there, but I am glad to say that the shops are now open and that work has been resumed.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What arrangements
were made with the strikers?


John Douglas Hazen: The. men have all gone
back to work.


Rodolphe Lemieux: At the same pay?


John Douglas Hazen: We are considering the question of pay. We have granted increases in certain cases where increases were deemed right and proper. As a matter of fact, the matter was being considered 
when the men took the ill-advised step of striking.



SUSPENSION OF COASTAL REGULATIONS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon.   W@: I am informed that the Government has by Order in Council suspended the provisions of the Coastal Act under which United States vessels are carrying grain for the use of the Allies. It is necessary, I assume, that those vessels should use more than one Canadian port. Can the right hon. Prime Minister inform the llouse whether any action has been taken in the matter? '


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: No action has been taken as yet.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Blain in the Chair.
Ocean and river service-To provide for the construction of two steamers to replace the Quadra, $150,000.
["No. We had the Commission which inquired into it and made a report recommending that the material taken out in dredging the channel be used in forming dams to keep the water back. Last year the water was unusually low in the St. Lawrence, but the largest steamers,\n\ndrawing 27 feet, and vessels of that kind, passed up and down the river without any difficulty anid in perfect safety.\nAt six o'clock the House resumed and then took recess.\nAfter Recess.\nThe House resumed at eight o'clock."]
Mr. PUGSLEY:: Will those' steamers be
constructed in Canada and will they be built of steel or of wood?


John Douglas Hazen: When they come to be constructed, they will be constructed in Canada and they will be built of wood. The Quadra was lost in collision, and we find that we can do very much better by building two smaller vessels than by. building one large vessel. We have managed to get along in the meantime by chartering a vessel, and in view of existing conditions, it is not likely we shall proceed with the construction of those vessels this year. That is a matter for consideration.


William Pugsley: Has the minister any
intimation to make in regard to the building of wooden vessels in eastern Canada. Early in this session we had an intimation from the Minister of Finance that the Government was giving some consideration to the question of constructing wooden vessels, and I think my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries rather held out the hope that an announcement on the subject might be made in the not distant future; but to my surprise, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, a few days ago, made the statement that the Government was not building and did not purpose building any wooden vessels in Canada. I am sure that statement will be a disappointment to a great many in eastern Canada

who would like to see the question of building wooden ships actually taken up by the Government.
In this connection, I would also like to call the attention of the minister to the fact that I am informed that the Imperial Munitions Board, limiting, as they have done, )o 2,500 tons the size of wooden vessels which they are having built for the Imperial Government, are discouraging people in the Maritime Provinces and in other parts of eastern Canada from the idea of utilizing timber from British Columbia, which timber, as the minister knows, is necessary for the construction of larger vessels. The ground on which that is based is, I believe, , that it would be difficult to supply transportation for British Columbia lumber to eastern Canada. I am not sure whether the Imperial Munitions Board, in making that statement, has been influenced at all by the extraordinary action of the minister of Railways in taking up the heavy rails on the Transcontinental and the Grand Trunk Pacific. Of course, the taking up of those rails and the substitution of lighter rails would very considerably interfere with the facilities for the transportation of heavy material at low rates of freight over the Transcontinental road. I would have thought that the Imperial Munitions Board and this Government would be disposed to encourage the bringing of British Columbia timber for use in the shipyards of eastern Canada, and I was very much surprised to learn that the Imperial Munitions Board had taken the action they did. There is, however, in eastern Canada, plenty of material for the building of wooden vessels of smaller size, and it might be desirable to have those two vessels built at once so that something may be done in the way of establishing shipbuilding in eastern Canada.


John Douglas Hazen: Those vessels are for use on the Pacific coast. The Quadra, which they will replace, was used on the Pacific coast in connection with the Marine Department.


William Pugsley: If those two vessels were constructed in eastern Canada, they could be taken 'to British Columbia via the Panama canal. Perhaps this is a good time to ask my hon. friend if anything has resulted from his suggestion to the representatives of the British Government that they should engage in the building of smaller vessels. Only the day before yesterday, at a branch meeting of the Manufacturers' Association, held in the city of St. John, the matter of building smaller wooden vessels
came up, and very strong feeling was expressed in favour of the Government taking up the matter of building wooden vessels. Such vessels are very much required, as my hon. friend will agree. It is almost impossible to-day to obtain vessels for carrying on the coastal service of Canada, and it is almost impossible to secure vessels to bring anthracite coal from the Pennsylvania mines for use in factories, for heating dwellings, and for general use in the cities of the Maritime Provinces. The question is becoming a very serious one, and I would like to hear from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries whether any steps have been or are likely to be taken by the Government to engage as a Government operation-I do not mean by encouraging private individuals-in the building of smaller wooden vessels in Canada.


John Douglas Hazen: My information is not exactly the. same as that of my hon. friend. I understand that the reason why the Imperial Munitions Board is not prepared to place contracts for wooden vessels of less than 2,500 tons is because that board has absolute instructions on that point from the British Government, and the vessels which the British Government wish are limited to 2,500 tons, and they are not, up to the present time, willing to authorize the building for them of smaller vessels. That is a policy, of course, which they have to determine; they are the owners of the vessels; it is for them that the vessels are being built; it is for them to declare what sort of vessels they require, and they have declared that at the present time they do not want vessels of less than 2,500 tons. The junior member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) stated the other night in this House that vessels of that size could not be built in the Maritime Provinces, because it was impossible to secure the lumber to build such vessels. I took the occasion of communicating this. statement both to the Colonial Secretary and to the Director of Shipping, Sir Joseph MacLay, pointing out that I trusted that they would reconsider the matter, and that in the public interest they would see whether or not vessels of a smaller size were desirable for their purposes, and, if they were, that orders would be placed in Canada for their construction. I have not received an answer to that communication yet. The question, of course, has to be decided by the British Government, through the Imperial Munitions Board. There are being constructed in the province of Nova Scotia at the present time

by private individuals 48 wooden vessels, the builders believing that there will be a good margin of profit on vessels of that sort, and that it will prove a profitable undertaking. The information I got by letter was to the effect that the vessels were from 1,500 tons down to about 100 tons. The junior mentber for Halifax, however, said that he did not think any vessels were being constructed in the province as large as 1,500 tons. He said that the largest under construction in the province would be ho more than 1,000 tons, and I think he even mentioned 600 tons. If that is the case, the information that was sent to me by a gentleman who I thought was very well informed as to conditions in Nova Scotia, must be erroneous.
The junior member for Halifax pointed out the very great difficulty there would be in building large wooden ships in the lower provinces on account of the difficulty in getting timber. Still, there is considerable activity in shipbuilding in Nova Scotia, as is evidenced by the 48 vessels now under construction. From the information I have received-and the hon. member for Halifax agrees with me-there is no need to give a bonus to encourage the construction of wooden vessels; the junior member for Halifax expressed the opinion that it was neither desirable nor necessary. The reason is that these vessels can be built and operated at a very substantial profit, providing they escape the submarines and mines, on account of the high freight rates.
The question of building ships in this country for use after the war, to be owned by this Government, is a very important one. Hon. gentlemen will, of course, understand that it would involve the expenditure of a very large sum of money, and at the present time when such very large sums have to be raised for the purpose of carrying on the war, the question of raising additional millions would cause the Finance Minister of this country a great deal of concern; it is a policy that cannot rashly be undertaken, 'but will require the most careful consideration. If private individuals are willing to go into the building of ships of this sort, the Government would not be justified, I think, in entering into competition with them. One of the difficulties in the past about private individuals entering into the building of ships in this country has been the danger of having the ships, after they were completed, commandeered for war purposes, and if commandeered by the British Government they would not earn the ordinary commercial rates, but
[Mr. Hazen.l
what are known as approved rates, which have been fixed by a special committee in England and which are not as high as the ship could earn under private ownership. These are all matters of importance and require the most careful consideration. I have not the statement with me that my hon. friend asked for with, regard to the number of vessels being built in Canada for the Brjtish Government through contracts placed by the Munitions Board, but it has been sent to my office, and I think I shall be able to let my hon. friend have it to-morrow.


Mr. E. M. MACDONALD (Pictou):: I have listened with a very great deal of interest to the statement of my hon. friend and I am sorry that he holds out no hope of assistance to the ship building industry, which would mean the development of a Canadian mercantile marine. My hon. friend tells us that the Imperial Government has made arrangements through the Munitions Board for the construction of large ships, which, when constructed, will be under the control of the Imperial Government, and will not be available for our internal trade. The question of adding to the very few ships in Canada capable of looking after the transportation of our products on the sea is to be left over until after the war. That is not a very hopeful outlook. The minister will remember that the hon. member for St. John last year, and two years ago, and on several occasions since, has urged on the Government the absolute necessity of taking some action in this matter, and it is, indeed, disappointing, after all this discussion, to find that the Government have reached the determination to do nothing whatever towards the creation of a Canadian mercantile marine.
The situation in regard to our internal trade is a very serious one. The question of coal, for instance, and how the people of Canada are to be warmed next winter is a very serious problem indeed. At this moment we are absolutely dependent upon what coal we can get from the United States, and there the direct control of the production and output of the American" collieries is under the American Government, along lines, which, in the judgment of men connected with the coal trade, creates a condition which the people of this country, having regard to the situation in western Canada, can only view with misgiving and alarm. So far as eastern Canada is concerned, to the great distributing point of Montreal there has always been sent a large

quantity of coal, running from 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 tons, but this year practically no coal whatever can he sent along the ordinary channels, not because the coal is not there, for in a great many cases it is lying in the bank, but because of the lack of transportation facilities by water. Practically every collier that was engaged in transporting coal from Nova Scotia to the central part of Canada has been commandeered by the British Government, and the result is, as every business man knows, that the prospects of getting coal by sea from eastern Canada are very, very poor, indeed. The only hope is .that the Minister of Railways will deal with the situation by providing a very low freight rate on the railways, but every one will realize that that will not be at all equal to the transportation of coal by water. That is the condition with regard to coal, which is a very important item to the people of Canada. If the British Government, through the Imperial Munitions Board, commandeer our ships for war purposes, where are we going to get the necessary transportation facilities? The minister tells us that 48 vessels are being built in the province of Nova Scotia. Those may or may not be commandeered; they may be sold to the United States.


John Douglas Hazen: No.


William Pugsley: I saw by the papers that one was sold only a few days ago.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Of course, the Minister f>f Marine, under the plenary powers given him by the War Measures Act can control the disposition of these vessels. All the small vessels available will be needed to meet the local requirements along our own coast, and if all are of the small character indicated by him they will not supply the needs of the c.ountry for transportation covering greater distances. It seems to me the Government ought to take steps to provide for the construction of vessels. Let these vessels be constructed either by the Government direct pr by private parties, under subvention or in some other way. The means to be taken should be the subject of consideration by the best technical experts who should advise the country how to deal with this very serious problem. I have made some inquiries myself, and, for one thing, I am advised that the statement made that it is impossible to get the plates for the construction of steel vessels is not an accurate statement. That is the advice I received from those to whose .opinions in these matters great weight should be given. Against that advice I would not believe the
statement that has been made without evidence of a most indisputable character. We cannot accept the dictum of an hon. gentleman who happens to think thus and so, when we have statements to the contrary from men engaged in the business.
One of the great mistakes we have made in regard to problems such as this is to accept the statement: You cannot do this, it will take too Jong. We have been saying that in regard to everything material to the welfare of Canada since the war began; and the time has arrived when we must face these problems and must mature a proper, sensible programme in regard to the whole situation. We have been hoping for an early end of the war, and now the conditions facing us are serious enough. It is a question whether we aTe not now too late, but certainly we are getting nearer every day to the time when it will be too late. The best way to avoid being too late is to start now. Transportation conditions in this country demand most radical action. It will not do to leave this problem to be settled after the war. If you cannot have the ships ready in 6ix months, then lay down a programme to have them ready next spring. The days for the production of wooden ships have not gone by; and every one knows that if a programme were laid down now, before next spring we .could place upon the ocean ready for service a huge number of these wooden vessels. And every one of them will be needed, no matter how many you supply. I was told by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) ten days ago that every shipyard that could build wooden ships is busy building ships for the Imperial Munitions Board. Yet only two days ago I had a letter from a shipbuilder in my own country in which he'told me he was trying to get a contract for a wooden ship, and if he got the contract he would start building at once, but he had not been able to get the contract up to that time. I see by the press that a firm in Sherbrooke have received a contract'for supplying engines and other material to provide poweT for certain scows now under construction. These must be for vessels of a less capacity than the minimum of the wooden ships to be built under the authority of the Imperial Munitions Board. So much for wooden ships.
Now, in regard to steel ships, the House ought to know authoritatively, whether or not the Government have made inquiries in the United States and Great Britain,

and whether they have information of a definite character as to the production of steel plates. It is manifest that we ought to -build eteel ships if we can, because the same appliances, such as machinery, now being placed in wooden vessels will be of much greater value, as giving more permanent results, if placed in steel ships. Having regard to the great interests at stake, the Government should at once take action for the providing of a mercantile marine, and not leave -this problem until after the war for settlement. We are now entering upon our summer season, and, even if we cannot have ships ready for the autumn, we ought at least to have entered upon a definite certain programme which will enable us to know that these vessels will be built, either of wood or of steel, so that when the season of 1918 opens we shall have ships enough to meet our transportation needs. The coal problem, I warn the minister and the Government, is at this moment so serious that the question may face us, for the first time in our history, of the possibility of Canada being compelled to rely solely on her own products which cannot be transported. This may result in conditions of the greatest possible hardship unless every effort is made to provide means of transport for the coal that is needed. The problem is to use coal from the ports of Nova Scotia near the points of production as a factor in helping to keep warm in winter the people of central Canada, and this problem is so allied with the question of shipping that the need for action on the line I have suggested becomes so great that it must not be disregarded.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: Are the ships that are being ordered by the Munitions Board wholly of wood?


John Douglas Hazen: Many of them are steel ships.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the Board accept a ship built wholly of wood?


John Douglas Hazen: I understand that they will, if the ship is not less than 2,500 tons.


John Howard Sinclair: It is not necessary that the frame be steel?


John Douglas Hazen: I understand that it is not necessary.


John Howard Sinclair: What kind of wood is used?


John Douglas Hazen: British Columbia fir and pine, I understand.
C!Ar. Macdonald.]


John Howard Sinclair: I am sure there are
many people who would like to get that information.


John Douglas Hazen: I am sure the Munitions Board would be delighted to give it.


William Pugsley: The Munitions Board do not encourage the building of ships in Eastern Canada in which British Columbia timber is to be used. Some one has told them that the timber cannot be transported. But if the Transcontinental Railway were given the order, I am sure they would be able to transport enough timber to build many ships.


John Douglas Hazen: I am not here to represent the Munitions Board, but I should like to know what authority the hon. gentleman has for his statement.


William Pugsley: I have been told directly that the Board discourages giving contracts to persons who contemplate bringing their timber from British Columbia. I have a letter to that effect. I either have a letter or a gentleman who went to the Munitions Board with a view of getting a contract stated that that was represented to him; but I am inclined to think that I have a letter myself to the same effect.
Of course, the unjustifiable dismantling of the Transcontinental railway by the Minister of Railways and Canals may be a reason for lack of transportation facilities, but in northern British Columbia, in the Prince Rupert district, we know there are vast foresit areas where long timber can be got in enormous quantities and which might be easily hauled over the Transcontinental railway for use in the shipyards of eastern Canada. Let me ask the minister if he will not see the Munitions Board and find out what the exact position of the matter is. If the minister will inquire of the Munitions Board he will find, I am sure, that that is the view which the Board take and that they discourage people from taking contracts to build wooden ships of 2,500 tons if they are relying on British Columbia timber. They speak of the difficulties of transportation. It was said here recently-
I think yesterday-that the Transcontinental railway is not doing very much business in western Canada, and especially through the mountains. I do not know whether that is true or not, hut if it is taue, why should not that road he utilized to transport timber to the shipyards of eastern Canada where it may be used for the building of wooden ships?

Now, I will leave that question and I will take up what my hon. friend says in regard to the building of wooden vessels by the Canadian Government. Even at the risk of some foolish person, or some foolish newspaper, outside of the House saying that I am interfering with the carrying on of the war because I criticise the Government, I desire to say that the Government has not discharged its duty to the people of this country in not having long ago engaged in the building of wooden ships. It is not discharging its duty to-day in determining, as it was announced here that it had determined, that it will do nothing in that direction., My hon. friend speaks of vessels being built in the shipyards of Nova Scotia by private 'parties at their awn expense. Why should the shipbuilders of eastern Canada be placed at a disadvantage by toeing obliged to finance the enterprise entirely themselves while tbe builders of steel ships in British Columbia are assisted by the Imperial Government or the Imperial Munitions Board? Is this Government afraid to do what the British Government is doing? Is this Government afraid to engage in the building of vessels when the British Government is doing so? When the United States entered into the war, the United States Government immediately appropriated 150,000,000 for the purpose of building wooden vessels. They did not require that they should be of 2,500 tons. They ordered that there should be a thousand wooden vessels constructed of a capacity of 1,000 tons each. That was the order which' the United States gave to the proper officials-I think Mr. Goethels is the chairman of the United States ship construction board.


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend must have seen that they are not going to build them now.


William Pugsley: I have not seen it. I suppose they are not going to build them because they have great opportunities for building steel vessels. My hon. friend from Pietou (Mr. Macdonald) has pictured the condition of the people in consequence of the high cost of transportation applying to fuel, foodstuffs, and everything which the people require, the cost of which is becoming so great that a condition of misery and almost of starvation has been created and there is danger almost of people freezing to death in some parts of this country. That might be prevented toy the Government doing something with regard to the question of transportation . .Why are they
not doing it? My hon. friend says that they are going to do it after the war. After the war there will be no necessity for it.


John Douglas Hazen: I did not say so.


William Pugsley: I thought the hon. gentleman said that after the war this would be a very important question to be considered. His colleague the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster), during the present session, said that he was utilizing his staff for the purpose of working out a scheme to engage in the building of ships after the war. It is not after the war that the people require such relief. It is now. It was two years ago, it was nearly three years ago that the Government ought to have taken the matter up. It is with regret that I do it, but I do make the charge that this Government has with respect to the building of wooden ships absolutely failed in the duty which it owes to the Canadian people. Our boys who are at the front have left their mothers and sisters in Canada. There are certain provisions made for them but if the cost of fuel and the cost of the necessaries of life goes up by leaps and bounds as it has been going up for months and months past it is going to render the condition of this class of the community, as well' as of all the other people in Canada who are not possessed of very large means, very deplorable. Take the city of St. John in which my hon. friend lives when he is in his home town and to-day our people are paying $14 per ton for anthracite coal and the word I get from there is that the dealers refuse to enter into a contract because they do not know how they will be able to get their coal from the mines in Pennsylvania to St. John. Is that not a condition which ought to excite attention on the part of hon. gentlemen? Do they turn deaf ears to the appeals which are going out from the people in this particular?


Mr. BURNHAM:: How is the Government going to deal with it? It is the same all through Ontario.


William Pugsley: By building vessels and bringing rates down to a fair and reasonable charge. That is the way the Government is going to do it. I do not assume that if the Government do build vessels and engage in transportation they are going to keep the prices away up the same as the speculators keep them up. I do not imagine that if the Government were to take charge of the flour mills of Canada they would charge the same extravagant rates for the manufacture of flour as the private miller is doing. I would assume that if the Gov-

ernment built vessels they -would give relief to the people in the way of transportation and keep the charges down to within reasonable limits. As far as coal and many other of the necessaries of life are concerned, it is the high cost of transportation that is increasing the prices to these exorbitant iamounts, and which are imposing such burdens on the people to-day.


John Hampden Burnham: Freight rates are under the control of a commission, are they not?


William Pugsley: No, not on vessels.


John Hampden Burnham: But they are on railways?	'


William Pugsley: My hon. friend ought to know that transportation by water ought to be very much cheaper than transportation by rail, and yet to-day you cannot get transportation by water (between the producing districts in the United States, where coal is mined, and - mined in abundance, and the ports of the Maritime Provinces. Or, if the Government were to go into the building of vessels they would he able to place these vessels on the routes where they were most required and by charging fair and reasonable rates they would be able to keep down the cost of transportation and so give relief to the people who are, as I have said, in a very distressing condition to-day in many sections of the country, and whose condition will be deplorable in the near future if nothing is done by the Government for their relief. However, I have discharged my duty and it rests with the Government to say whether they will do anything or whether they will continue the do-nothing policy which they have pursued in this regard ever since the war began. My hon. friend says it would take money to build wooden vessels. But did not his colleague the Minister of Railways (Mr. Qochrane) only yesterday introduce a Bill which will authorize him to expend $10,000,000 of the money of the people of this country on the construction of highways, which are not needed in these times of waT? What the Government ought to do is to take that $10,000,000 and build wooden vessels to assist in cheapening transportation at once and give relief to the people of this country in the direction in which relief is most needed. Let the construction of highways, which, after all, are largely for the use of the automobilists of this country, wait; these matters of necessity may well stand over until the settling of the war. Let the Government devote what m.oney they have to what really can be accomplished

for the purpose of relieving distress, and distress in many particulars can be best relieved by decreasing the cost of transportation in Canada.


Mr. A. A. McLEAN:: When I saw in the newspapers that the Munitions Board were giving contracts in British Columbia for the construction of wooden ships, I went down to the Munitions Board and asked one of the officials if contracts would toe given in eastern Canada, and he told me that so soon as the men who are conducting the business for the board in British Columbia and the West were through with their business in that part of Canada, they would proceed to the Maritime Provinces. I was informed that any person who would assure the board that he had a proper shipyard, properly equipped, and had competent men in charge of it, would be given contracts for 2,500-ton wooden ships.


Mr. MARCIL:: Nothing less than 2,500
tons.


Angus Alexander McLean: He said 2,500-ton
wooden steamships. This information was given freely to me, and I do not think there i3 any secret about it.


Charles Marcil: Did the hon. member ask if any less than that tonnage would be constructed?


Angus Alexander McLean: That is what I was told, that the ships were all of a standard tonnage of 2,500 tons. . I do not think that, as the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugs-ley) has stated, the building of these ships is to be confined to British Columbia. I have applied to menin my own province and asked them to consider the matter and find out what quantities of wood were
4 p.m. available there for the building of ships, and I am assured that, with the exception of certain portions of the ship, wood is available in the three Maritime Provinces.


William Pugsley: What I said was that to build these 2,500-ton ships in eastern Canada it would in most cases be necessary to bring timber from British Columbia, and while the Munitions Board would give contracts to build in eastern Canada, they would discourage the entering into contracts involving the bringing of timber from British Columbia. They put forward the difficulty of transportation. That is what I understood.


Angus Alexander McLean: I do not see why the hon. member should wish the board to discourage the building of ships in eastern Canada.


William Pugsley: The hon. member insists on misunderstanding me. They will discourage the building of wooden ships in eastern Canada if the builders wish to depend for their timber, or any portion of it, on British Columbia. That is what I said.


Angus Alexander McLean: I do not think they will depend on British Columbia to get lumber.


William Pugsley: For the large vessels they say they must.


Angus Alexander McLean: There is a sufficient quantity of lumber in eastern Canada, Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island to build the ships, and I have no doubt that these gentlemen on their return from the West will offer contracts.


William Pugsley: A gentleman was here the other day from New Brunswick who has facilities for shipbuilding in a portion of New Brunswick, the north shore, which is perhaps the best timbered section in the province. He was prepared to engage at once in the building of four wooden ships of a tonnage not exceeding 500 tons each. He said if he had to build larger vessels than that, up to the specifications of the Munitions Board, he would be obliged to procure a portion of the timber from British Columbia.


John Howard Sinclair: Why not from the
Southern States?


William Pugsley: That might be done, of course.


Angus Alexander McLean: I have given the
information which I received, and that information is that contracts will be offered after these gentlemen return from British Columbia. The Imperial Government will supply and pay for all materials for the construction of these ships, and give a fair profit, but the profit for eastern Canada has not yet been settled.


John Howard Sinclair: Is there a uniform
price?


Angus Alexander McLean: I do not know. I
did not inquire, but I suppose it will depend upon the local markets what they will pay for lumber in different sections.


John Howard Sinclair: Is there a standard
model or pattern of ship?


Angus Alexander McLean: The hon. member can get that information at the Munitions Board; I did not go into it very particularly. I just wanted to know whether the information which was given in this House and the statements made in this House that the Munitions Board would not construct in the East were true or not, and I found out that they were not true, that the Board intended to offer contracts in the East.


William Pugsley: Did they intimate when that would take place?


Angus Alexander McLean: So soon as the gentlemen conducting this business returned from the West.


William Pugsley: Who was the official
whom the hon. gentleman saw?


Angus Alexander McLean: If my hon. friend
will consult Mr. Fitzgerald he will get the information which I received.


Mr. KYTE:: I .desire to point out the
situation in Nova Scotia with respect to the securing of a supply of anthracite coal for which provision will have to be made in the course of' a few months. It appears to be almost impossible to get tonnage to convey this coal from Boston or New York to ports in Nova Scotia. Soane ten days ago; I think rates as high as $8 a ton were being offered in Boston for the carriage of anthracite coal from that port to ports in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. One can readily see that the imposition of such a charge as that for transportation would render it almost impossible for the ordinary consumer of anthracite to lay in a supply for the approaching winter season. The same condition obtains with regard to the carriage of soft coal. I know that in the island of Cape Breton large collieries are obliged to bank great quantities of coal that should be in course of transportation to the different places where local consumption of coal is necessary and where the supply of coal is very much shorter than it would ordinarily be at this season of the year. I do not know what immediate steps the Government can take to relieve this situation. I believe the conditions existing in the island of Cape Breton as regards the shipment of coal from Those mines to other parts of the Maritime Provinces is due to the fact that the Government has commandeered a large number of steamers and has taken many vessels out of the carrying trade.
I regret very much that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries does not seem to be able to find a solution of the difficulty. Not only are the consumers of coal hampered

by reason of the enormous freights being charged, but the produceis as well are hampered by reason of their inability to get shipment for their coal to different points in the Maritime Provinces. There are ample facilities in the province of Nova Scotia for the construction of smaller ships than those to which reference has been made by the minister, and a large number of wooden ships would now be in course of construction in that province if some kind of encouragement had been given. The member for St. John has referred to the enormous expenditure proposed by the Minister of Railways and Canals under the Bill introduced yesterday. I agree with the hon. member for St. John that the expenditure of $10,000,000 for the improvement of highways at this time is absolutely unjustifiable and indefensible, having regard to the crying need for more vessels to carry coal and other necessaries of life from the different ports of the Maritime Provinces. Certainly the Government cannot refuse to take action upon the plea that money is not available.


John Hampden Burnham: Why was coal not carried to the lake regions by means of vessels before the war?


George William Kyte: I know of no other way of carrying it up to the lakes-although a few years ago the member for West Peterborough was advocating the use of flying machines for transportation purposes.


John Hampden Burnham: We are stuck for coal in Ontario, but' they do not think of bringing it to this part of the country by means of vessels. It is said that coal cannot be cheaply carried that way, partly owing to inability to control the mines and operators. The result has been the high price of coal in Ontario-and it seems likely to continue. When it was suggested that the railways were overcharging, it was found that that was not the case.


William Pugsley: My information is that the people of Ontario pay less for bringing coal all the way from the Pennsylvania mines by rail than the people of the Maritime Provinces are obliged to pay for bringing it by water. Transportation by water ought not to be one-quarter as expensive as transportation by rail.


John Hampden Burnham: Then why have vessels not been used in the past for this purpose?


William Pugsley: Because there have been so few vessels.
fMr. Kyte.l


George William Kyte: Before the war there was no scarcity of vessels for the transportation of coal, but since the commencement of war the Government have commandeered a number of vessels that were previously engaged in that work. Coal has not, I think, been at any time carried from Nova Scotia to the Great Lakes by vessels, because the vessels were unable to pass through the canals. So far as our tonnage in the Maritime Provinces is concerned, therefore, conditions affecting the transport of coal to the lakes are not different now from what they were a few years ago. It is in the highest degree desirable that some active steps should at once be taken to relieve the present condition of affairs. This is the season of the year when hard coal is being purchased and held in stock for next winter, but the people of the Maritime Provinces are unable to lay in their supply of coal at this season, and thus take advantage of the reduced price, because of the prohibitive rates charged as a result of the scarcity of tonnage.


William Pugsley: I wish to read a letter which I received from the Director of Steel Shipbuilding in answer to a communication which I wrote to the Munitions Board asking for information as to the standard of vessels. I did that because some gentlemen in New Brunswick were desirous of engaging in shipbuilding. This letter, which is not of a private nature, puts the Board's position very clearly. It is as follows:
May 16, 1917.
Wm. Pugsley, Esq., M.P.,
House of Commons,
City.
Dear Sir.-
In reply to your letter of May 15th.
The Board has been authorized by the British Ministry of Shipping to arrange for the construction of a certain number of wooden ships in Canada according to a standard type. The design and specifications can be seen at any time at the Board's office.
The vessels are of approximately 2,500 tons deadweight, being 250 feet long, 40 feet in beam and 21 feet draft.
The terms on which the Board is placing these contracts are the reimbursement of the contractor for the actual cost of building, including labour, material and overhead, plus a fixed sum by way of profit for each vessel constructed. Under these circumstances, and because definite results must be secured, the Board will examine closely into the capacity, resources and experience of each firm seeking a contract.
With regard to the plant, etc., employed, in the construction, individual arrangements will be made in each case on the basis of allowing a reasonable amortization as part of the cost of construction, or in the case of an existing plant allowing a reasonable rental for the use of the plant as part of the cost.

With regard to any construction undertaken in Eastern Canada, the essential point will be for the contractor to satisfy the Board thajt he has or can obtain on reasonable terms a sufficient quantity of suitable lumber to build the type of ship required. It is not safe to reckon on obtaining lumber from British Columbia ; firstly, because we expect that most of the lumber suitable for the purpose, which is cut there, will be taken up in wooden ship construction on the Pacific coast, and secondly because it is doubtful whether any large quantity of lumber could be brought across the continent in the present railway situation even if it were available.
You are quite at liberty to communicate the above information to your friends, and the Board will be very glad to' give more detailed information to any one interested.
Yours truly,
William I. Gear, Director of Steel Shipbuilding.
I was struck by the statement in the latter part of the letter that it is doubtful whether any large quantity of lumber could be brought across the continent, having regard to the present railway situation, even if the lumber were available. A gentleman who was desirous of forming a company to engage in shipbuilding told me that he had been informed by the Board that they would not give him a contract if he had to rely on British Columbia lumber. It ought to be possible for the Government to have lumber from northern British Columbia and the vicinity of Prince Rupert, where, I am told, there is an abundant supply, brought over the Transcontinental railway and used in the shipyards of eastern Canada.
Just a day or two ago I had a letter from a gentleman at Diligent river, Nova Scotia. He stated that he had a shipyard where wooden vessels could be built in large numbers, and that he would be very glad to place it, I think he said, free of charge, at the disposal of this Government for the purpose of building ships. My hon. friend knows that in the harlbour of St. John, in the vicinity of St. John, along the Kenne-becasis river, along the St. John river, at St. Martin's, at St. Andrew's and at St. George, at other places on the Bay of Fundy coast, at Richibucto, on the Mir-amiehi river, at Bathurst, at Campellton, along the Baie des Chaleurs coast, along the 'St. Lawrence, there are thousands of opportunities for building wooden vessel's, and at these places wooden shipbuilding was carried on in the past on a large scale. I wish to repeat what I said, that I think the Government ought to let contracts for the building of small wooden vessels of say 500 tons capacity, and to take measures, where it is necessary to bring timber from
British Columbia, to have it brought east in enormous quantities for the purpose of assisting in the construction of wooden vessels. There are large quantities of timber in eastern Canada, but I think, to build larger vessels with southern -pine or British Columbia timber would in most cases be required, and there is the same difficulty of getting southern pine to the Maritime Provinces as there is in getting coal carried, because it would have to be brought by water, but British Columbia timber, whenever it is required to be mixed with eastern timber, could be brought by the Government over the Transcontinental. Let the Government act and they will receive the enthusiastic approval of the members of this House and of the people of this country. Let them start in, as the United States Government hag done, as the British Government has done, to build ships to assist in transportation, and they will be conferring an enormous benefit upon the people, and I am sure that if they will, even at this late hour, engage in this most important work, they will receive the approval of the people of Canada.


Charles Marcil: I would not like this item to pass without saying a word on behalf of the mother province of the Dominion. There was a time when the province of Quebec shared in the glories of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick in the building of wooden ships which covered the seven seas, and when Canada ranked as the fifth greatest shipbuilding nation in the world. I read to-day in the Montreal Gazette that the tonnage passing through the Lachine canal has decreased considerably since last year, and almost daily our inland tonnage is falling off. All the arguments that have been advanced on behalf of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick apply with ten times as much force to the St. Lawrence, because the St. Lawrence is the main artery of this country, and on the St. Lawrence, in the old province of Quebec, we have the largest city of Canada, which consumes more coal than any other Canadian city, and where last winter we had a coal shortage which was a very serious problem, and which problem is going to be ten times worse during next winter unless the Government wake up and do something. One of the clever moves which paved the way for a change in the administration of this country was when the present Minister of Trade and Commerce brought forward the idea of the creation of a Canadian navy, and ultimately the encouragement of shipbuilding in Canada. That was the starting point

which led the then Opposition on to the road which ultimately (brought them into office. It was the .policy of the Opposition of that day to encourage shipbuilding. Last year the Minister of Trade and Commerce himself, if my memory does not fail me, advocated strongly the construction of ships in this country, and it stands to reason that Canada will never take the position which she should hold amongst the nations of the world unless she goes extensively into the building of ships. We have built hundreds and thousands of miles of railway throughout Canada; we have opened up every part of the country; we have given access to all our various industries, our mines, our fisheries, our lumber, but our domain ends when we r'each the water's edge. We have not yet got properly on to the water; we are trusting to England and to foreign countries to carry our goods across the ocean. The number of ships on the Canadian register is practically nil and is growing smaller and smaller every day. Our inland tonnage is doing practically nothing. We hear some complaints-
Mi*. W. H. BENNETT: Is the hon. member aware that last year a boat was launched at Collingwood capable of carrying a million bushels of grain?


Charles Marcil: I will give Collingwood credit for launching one boat last year.


Mr. BENNETT:: There are a large number on the stocks.


Charles Marcil: 
John Howard Sinclair: We were informed the other evening by the Minister of Finance that by an Order in Council recently passed a shipbuilder gets a rebate of all the duty he has paid on materials entering into the construction of a ship. It is similar to the law in regard to agricultural implements, boilers and other manufactured goods. If you import boiler plates from the United States, and construct a boiler in Canada and then export it to some other country, you get a rebate of 99 per cent of the customs duties paid on the materials used in the construction of the boiler. If it is true that this rebate is now granted in regard to the shipbuilding industry, it is a step in the right direction. Prior to this Order in Council, a certain number of articles entering into the construction of ships were on the free list, such as plates and other articles that could not be made in Canada. I was led to believe in the discussion the other evening that the duty would be rebated on all articles entering
into the construction of a ship, and I should like to know if that covers material that is manufactured in Canada. For instance, if I am building a steel vessel in Nova Scotia I naturally go to Dartmouth for rivets. The manufacturer in Dartmouth takes advantage of the tariff, and charges 27 per cent or whatever the protection is on rivets. Under the Order in Council, would I get that duty rebated, just as if the rivets had been imported from the United States or some other country?


John Douglas Hazen: I was not aware that we
would have a discussion of this sort when my Estimates came up to-day, or I would have had more information on this subject.
I think that my hon. friend from Bona-venture, who always speaks eloquently and in a way that is pleasant to hear, is better informed on other matters than on the subject he discussed here this afternoon. He spoke as though little or nothing were being done in the building of large ships in the province of Quebec. He said that some small construction work was being done at the Vickers works in Montreal. It may surprise my hon. friend to learn that there are under construction at the Vickers works in Montreal six cargo steam-, ers of 7,000 tons each. Other vessels are also being constructed at that yard, one of 2,360 tons, and others of less tonnage. The shipyard employs over 2,000 men and keeps them as busy as possible. At the Davie Shipbuilding Yards, Levis, there is a vessel of 5,000 tons being constructed. At Sorel, in certain private shipyards, there is a great amount of activity in shipbuilding. Almost within sight of the city of Quebec, on the Island of Orleans, a company with which Mr. Playfair, who is known to hon. members in connection with shipping on the Great Lakes, is connected, is building four wooden ships of from 1,500 to 2,000 tons, and I am informed that a large portion of the lumber entering into the construction of these ships is being brought from British Columbia. Further, I may say that a gentleman was here to-day who is largely engaged in shipbuilding, and he states that he has made arrangements for bringing a large quantity of British Columbia lumber down to points on the St. Lawrence, where he is going to construct some 8 or 10 wooden ships, as large, I presume, as those that are being built on the Island of Orleans, from 1,500 to 2,000 tons each. Two of the ships that are being constructed at the Island of Orleans are well on the way to

completion, and work has been commenced on two others. I think that is an answer to the statement of my hon. friend from St. John that there is great difficulty in getting lumber from British Columbia. Not only is some of the lumber that is going into the construction of these ships being brought from British Columbia, but I am informed that Mr. Norcross has made large purchases of lumber in that province, and is going to build ships of British Columbia lumber and lumber obtained elsewhere.
There are a large number of ships being built at the present time in Canadian shipyards, aggregating a very considerable amount of tonnage. Six are being constructed in the Vickers yard of 7,000 tons each, and I think they are all under way. The Davie Shipbuilding and Bepairing Company, Levis, are building one steel vessel of 5,000 tons. The Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Co., of New Glasgow, N.S., have under construction three cargo steamers of a total tonnage of 6,800. The Shelburne Shipbuilders Company are building a wooden cargo steamer of 320 tons. Robert Rutledge, of Sheet Harbour, N.S., is building a wooden cargo steamer of 325 tons. The Quebec Shipbuilding and Repairing Co., Isle of Orleans, are building two auxiliary schooners of 2,490 tons, and a tug boat is being built at Sorel of 410 tons. In addition, there is a large amount of other construction which I do not care to speak about here, going on at the Sorel shipyards, at the Davie 'Works, Quebec; at Poisons, Toronto; at Canadian Vickers, Montreal, and at other shipyards throughout the country. On the Great Lakes the Port Arthur Shipbuilding and Repairing Go., Limited, are building four cargo steamers aggregating 9,748 tons. The Collingwood Shipbuilding Company are building one steel cargo steamer of 7,988 tons, and two steel oil tankers of 4,800 tons.
The Poison Iron Works, Limited, Toronto, are building two cargo steamers of 4,400 tons each and six cargo steamers of 3,500 tons each, in all eight steamers, in addition to other marine construction work which is going on there. The Thor Iron Works Limited, have two steel cargo steamers on the stocks of 5,000 tons each. The Georgian Bay Shipbuilding and Repairing Company, Midland, Ontario, as pointed out toy my hon. friend from Simcoe (Mr. W. H. Bennett) recently launched a large steamer there, and other construction is in progress. On the Pacific coast a great deal of shipbuilding is carried on. The Coughlin Com-
[Mr. Hazen.l
pany has a contract for five large steel steamers of 8,800 tons each, and in the Wallace yards two steel vessels of 4,600 tons each are in course of construction. Hon. members will see from these figures that there is a great deal of activity in steel shipbuilding in Canada.
Now, with regard to wo.oden ships, I have here a list of wooden vessels being built at points on the Atlantic coast aside from those that are building under contracts placed by the Munitions Board. This list is complete so far as I know at present. In that connection it may not be uninteresting to call attention to the fact that the British authorities have issued an order excluding sailing vessels from the war area. This step has been taken because of the risk tp which these vessels are exposed from submarines, through their inability to escape. In reaching this decision the authorities are moved I assume, toy the consideration, not only pf loss of vessels, but of the loss of cargoes as well. They have made a request of us to adppt the same policy and to exclude Canadian sailing vessels from the war area.


William Pugsley: Does that order apply to sailing vessels with auxiliary power?


John Douglas Hazen: I suppose that the possession of auxiliary power toy a vessel would make the danger much less, and I should think that wpuld make a difference. The following is the list of wooden sailing vessels now under construction:



[Stage Direction]
J. W. Comeau,		Gross Tonnage.	
Comeauville, N.S	1	schooner	329Dr. McDonald, Meteghan, N.S	i	schooner	544John Deveau, Meteghan, N.S	i	schooner	400Innocent Comeau, Little Brook, N.S	1	schooner	250Omer Blinn, Grosses Coques, N.S	1	schooner	350Theriault Bros., Belliveau Cove, N.S	1	schooner	350J. N. Rafuse, Bridgewater, N.S	3	schooners	755Leary & Sons, Bridgewater, N.S	2	schooners	265Robar Brothers, Bridgewater, N.S	1	schooner	130William Naugler, Bridgewater, N.S	1	schooner	300W. R. & C. A. Huntley, Parrsboro, N.S	1	schooner	490Wagstaff & Hatfield, Port Greville, N.S	1	schooner	400G. M. Cochrane, Fox River, N.S	3	schooners	1349James E. Pettis, Spencer's Island, N.S. . ..	1	schooner.	.425
Gross
T. K. Bentley,	Tonnage.
Advocate Harbour, N.S. 1 Esther Harkinson Shipping Co., .	schooner	449Belliveau Cove, N.S	
Peter McIntyre,	1	schooner	360Saint John, N.B	
Southern Salvage Co.,	1	schooner	450J. Steadman Gardner,	2	schooners	530Liverpool, N.S	
W. K. McKean Co.,	1	schooner	340Liverpool, N.S	
Albert Parsons,	1	schooner	400Walton, N.S	
Geo. A. Cox,	1	schooner	400Shelburne, N.S	
W. C. McKay & Son,	1	schooner	200Shelburne, N.S	
Estate Joseph McGill,	4	schooners	620Shelburne, N.S	
J. Ernst & Son,	1	schooner	160Mahone Bay, N.S	
John McLean & Sons,	2	schooners	520Mahone Bay, N.S	
Smith & Rhuand,	1	schooner	95Lunenburg, N.S	
Lewis Hardwood Co.,	3	schooners	332Lewiston, N.S	
John Brown,	2	schooners	1000Public Landing, N.S. ... E. F. Williams,	1	tow barge	50Dartmouth, N.S	
Quebec Shipbuilding and Repairing Co.,	1	schooner	350St. Laurent, Que	
Charles Griffin,	2	schooners	2600Isaacs Harbour, N.S. . . . J. A. Balcom Co., Ltd.,	1	schooner	40Margaretsville, N.S	
James X. Lenteigne, *	1	schooner	400Lower Caraquet, N.B. ... Meteghan Railway and Shipbuilding Co.,	i	schooner	28Meteghan, N.S	
Shelburne Shipbuilders, Ltd..	i	schooner	470Shelburne, N.S	
Robert Rutledge,	1	schooner	350Sheet Harbour, N.S	
J. W. Raymond,	1	schooner	300Port Maitland, N.S	
Robin, Jones & Whitman,	1	schooner	375Liverpool, N.S	i	schooner	340
None of these vessels are large, hut the list shows that there is a very considerable activity in shipbuilding. But the people of the Maritime Provinces, so far as I can learn, have not shown much anxiety to engage in the building of larger vessels.
William Pugsley: Give them the contracts, and you will see how quickly they will build the vessels.


John Douglas Hazen: I was just going on to tell my hon. friend that six or eight months ago a gentleman who was interested in shipbuilding in Montreal came to me and told me he was going to proceed with the construction of ten schooners from 2,500 to 3,000 tons each, and that he would* as soon build them in the Maritime Provinces as anywhere if there were people there to take
the contracts. I communicated with the St. John Board of Trade and others in St. John, and told them of that proposition. After enquiry my correspondents wrote hack to me that they could not find anybody who was willing to enter into a contract for the construction of such vessels at the present time.


William Pugsley: It would depend on the price.
, Mr. HAZEN: The question of price was not raised; the price would have been satisfactory. These people said that shipbuilding in the province of New Brunswick had become almost a lost art. It flourished years ago, as the hon. member for Bona-venture (Mr. Marcil) said. In those days there used to be ship carpenters, sail makers, caulkers, and other ship's tradesmen, but these have pretty well disappeared. At any Tate, the parties with whom I communicated could not find any one willing to enter into a contract for the construction of these ships. I say this to show that at present there are difficulties in the way of constructing vessels of large size. This applies especially to New Brunswick. In Nova Scotia shipbuilding has been better maintained, schooners and other vessels have always been built in that province, and that accounts, probably, for the greater shipbuilding activity in Nova Scotia to-day. As I understand it, if there are builders who will build what the British Government requires-and they must be the judge of their own requirements-they will have no difficulty in getting contracts from the Imperial Munitions Board.
My hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) has drawn the attention of the committee to a very serious question in regard to the coal supply of Nova Scotia. It undoubtedly is a very important and serious question. I have had several consultations and interviews with people representing the Dominion Coal Company during the last few days. The Dominion Coal Company has been placed in a rather awkward position. The vessels which the company were using to transport their coal at the time of the outbreak of the war were, with one single exception, British registered vessels and were subject to requisition by the British Government. They had only one vessel which was a Canadian registered vessel. That vessel was also requisitioned by the British Government but I am taking steps to have it released. It will help to some extent to relieve the situation. They find it impossible-it is not a matter of price with them-to charter vessels for the putrevised EDITION

pose of carrying their coal not only to St. John and Halifax but to ports on the St. Lawrence as well. We have discussed the whole matter and we have taken steps which we think will go a long way towards relieving the situation in those two places.


William Pugsley: By reason of restoring one ship?


John Douglas Hazen: Not by reason of restoring one ship. I have mentioned one step that we have taken but there are other steps that I cannot explain to the House at the present time. But that, one ship will to a considerable extent relieve the situation and it will be an important factor in doing it. In addition to that, the Dominion Coal Company have had large contracts for supplying coal to ports in the United States and they have come to the conclusion that they will have to cancel these contracts and announce to the people in Boston and other places that they will have to look elsewhere for their coal, that their efforts will have to be directed to providing coal for places in Canada under existing circumstances.
These are the principal subjects that were touched on in connection with the discussion here to-day. There is no doubt that there is a greater development of shipbuilding in Canada than the country has known for many years. I believe as a result of what is going on to-day the shipbuilding yards in Canada will be placed in a considerably better position than they have been at any time during the past twenty-five or thirty years. I further believe that when the war is over they will be able to compete on more even terms with the shipbuilders of the United Kingdom. But up to the present time, as I pointed out in this House before, the Canadian shipbuilders have had no protection. British registered ships built in the Old Country have come into our ports to compete with the ships that were built in this country without paying any duty, even upon their equipment and the things that were necessary to enable them to sail their ships. But, there has been an enormous advance in wages in the United Kingdom. My belief is that wages in the United Kingdom, after the war is over, will never get down to the point at which they were before the war and which gave the shipbuilder of the United Kingdom an undue advantage in competition with the shipbuilders in this and otheT countries.


John Howard Sinclair: Will they come down in Canada?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know that they will. Wages in the United Kingdom are quite as high as they are in Canada and I do not believe they will come down for some years because there will be great activity after the war is over in building ships. The troops will have to be brought back, the munitions and equipment will have to be brought from the front and in consequence of submarine attacks there will be fewer ships than there were at the outbreak of the war. To carry on the business of the world there will be a great demand for ships, in consequence of that the shipyards of Great Britain and Canada will have a great deal of work to do and they will require to build a good many ships for carrying on the business for some years to come. I expect the Canadian shipyards, with the impetus they are getting now, will be able to compete with the shipbuilders of the United Kingdom. You find shipyards with contracts for six and eight large ships and as a result their yards will be better equipped and in a very much better position to compete than they were before.


William Pugsley: Are these ships being built for the British Government?


John Douglas Hazen: Some are and some are being built for others.


William Pugsley: For British or foreign governments?


John Douglas Hazen: Some contracts were placed for neutral governments and let me say here that these contracts that were placed for neutral governments were placed in every case with the full approval and consent of the British Government. That consent and approval was obtained before the contracts were entered into. In most cases these vessels have in the course of construction been commandeered for the use of the British Government and instead of flying the flag of neutral countries they will fly the British flag and be used for the purposes of Great Britain in connection with the war and the carrying on of her trade. If the hon. gentleman had suggested that he was going to take this subject up to-day -I am not complaining that he did not- but if he had-


William Pugsley: This is a subject that comes up unexpectedly.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, but if it had been
suggested-


William Pugsley: I got word yesterday
that it was hard to get coal in St. John.


John Douglas Hazen: 
William Pugsley: In what way is the Canadian Government seeking to meet them?


John Douglas Hazen: The Canadian Government have met these conditions very largely and it is largely due to the action ,of the Canadian Government that these contracts have been placed in Canada and to the representations we made to the Imperial authorities as to the facilities we had in Canada for the building ,of ships. Not one of these ships ordered by the British Government would have been contracted for in Canada had not Canada agreed to finance the operation and to get a credit for Great Britain in Canada in order that the work might be paid for . as it was proceeded with. When the hon. gentleman says that the Government of Canada has done nothing, I think he himself will see on reflection that that statement is not justified by what has occurred.
122J


William Pugsley: My hon. friend says
that Great Britain would not have given any orders in Canada if it had not been for the action of Canada in giving the British Government credit. I do not want to detract at all from what this Government has done, if I think it has done anything for encouraging transportation on Imperial account; but it seems to me that my hon. friend is claiming credit for something for which not very much credit is due. Did not the British Government give an order for one thousand ships to the United States before these contracts were given in Canada? Is not the British Government having ships built in the United States to-day? Did it not give an order for both war and commercial vessels? Take the order for five hundred submarines given in the United States.


John Hampden Burnham: Is not the American
loan an offset to that?


William Pugsley: The American loan has only been made recently. The British Government gave its order for this large amount of tonnage long before the United States made to Great Britain an offer of a portion of its loan. But surely if the British Government has ordered ships built in Canada it ik because the British Government want those ships, it is for the benefit of the Empire. The British Government is having ships built here because it requires them. What I complain of is that this Government is doing nothing. My hon. friend says that the British Government would not have given orders in Canada if it had not been that this Government gave a bredit. Let him put it oh that low ground if he wishes, although I do not believe one word of it. But when the British Government is giving orders to the extent of millions of dollars to the United States, would it not have given orders for the building of ships in Canada unless Canada had agreed to lend some money to it? That is putting it upon a pretty low ground indeed, to >
say that that is the reason which induced the British Government to give orders for the building of ships in Canada.
There is one great advantage which the House and the country will receive from the statement of my hon. friend to-day, and that is that we will get at the facts, because my hon. friend has read a list of ships under construction in Canada. We have had it stated over and 5 p.m. over again by members of the Government, by the Minister of

Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster), by the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) that every shipyard in -Canada, every place capable of building ships, was filled with orders, and that there was no opportunity to build any more ships than were being -constructed to-day.
iMr. HAZEN. That is true of every shipyard that builds steel ships.
'Mr. PUGSLEY: Does.not my hon. friend know that for the building of wooden vessels of 500 tons to 1,000 tons it does not take very long to put a shipyard, one that was formerly used, in good repair?' You want a good location, and you can soon get the yard ready. If the Government would give an order for 500 -wooden vessels of 500 'tons each to be built in -Canada, it would soon get offers by the score, offers by the hundred, offers by the thousand, to build those ishijps in eastern -Canada, in Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. But my hon. friend's statement is valuable in another respect; it corrects the statement which he made upon another recent occasion in the House that forty-eight vessels were -being built in the Maritime Provinces, and that the size of the vessels ranged from 1,500 tons down to 150 tons. My hon. friend has read a list to-day and has not mentioned, if I remember aright, a single vessel of a tonnage greater than GOO tons, -and in order to make up his full -list of forty-eight vessels, he puts in a little boat of a capacity of 38 tons, and many of them of 150 tons, little motor boats I suppose they would be. All of this shows the effort which has been made on the other side of the House to mislead the people of this country, to make them believe that there is a vast deal of shipbuilding going on in Canada-r Why, with all that is being done to-day, when ships are demanded not only for the Atlantic and Pacific business, but for the coasting business of Canada, when there is a -demand- -unparalled, such as never existed in this -country before, all the vessels named by my -hon. friend would not -be one-tenth part of the tonnage that was being turned out in the old days of peace when wooden shipbuilding in Canada was at its height. They turned out more ships in the little province of Prince Edward Island, more wooden vessels in number, than all those mentioned by my hon. friend.


John Douglas Hazen: Giving my hon. friend the advantage of the small one, there are fifty-three ships, averaging 353 tons each.


William Pugsley: This is what I said, that this Government is doing nothing to encourage Canadian transportation by water. Has not my hon. friend proved it himself? Every one of those steel ships which is being built, he says, has either 'been -contracted for to be sold to the British Government or to other governments-not one for the Canadian Government. The Government of every other country in the world deems it necessary to build ships to assist in the transportation in which it is immediately concerned. The British Government is buying ships in order to bring food to their own people, food to the armies, food to the Allies. Neutral countries are buying vessels to be built in Canada, but the Canadian Government gives no contract for a single vessel, buys not one single vessel, for the purpose of reducing the cost of transportation for the benefit of the Canadian people. That is why I say that the Canadian Government is doing nothing for the people of Canada. My hon. friend thinks that, because the ships are being built in Canada, that is a great thing for the Canadian people. All it does is to give employment, that is all; in these days, when men are scarce, it gives more employment. It does not reduce the cost of living, it does not reduce the cost of transportation, it does not give people cheaper coal, or cheaper flour, or cheaper foodstuffs of all kinds, which they would obtain if you cheapened the transportation of the country. Does not my hon. friend the minister see that the Governments of almost every other country in the world are either building ships or buying ships to be used for the benefit of their own people, while the Canadian Government stands all alone in absolutely refusing to do anything in this direction, absolutely alone? That is the record which Canada has to-day. My hon. friend has spoken of what is being done in the way of shipbuilding at the Vickers-Maxim plant. I am extremely glad that these shi-ps are being built at the Vickers-Maxim works. The fact that that firm are able to-day to do so much is a tribute to the foresight of the late Liberal Government, which gave the contract which led to the building of the dock an-d the shipbuilding plant near Montreal by the Vickers-Maxim Company, and if it had not been for what we did, giving a contract which I had the honour of signing when I was Minister of Public Works, what would have been the position so far as that portion of Canada is concerned? Not one ship would be in the course of construction in the vicinity of the city of Montreal-not

one. Then take the Collingwood ' plant. That was established under contract with , the late Liberal Government. So was the Poison Iron Works of Toronto, and the Port Arthur Dry Dock and Shipbuilding Company, where my hon. friend says they are turning out four ships, that yard was established by the Liberal Government, and I had the honour of turning the first sod in connection with the building of the dry dock and the establishment of the ship repairing plant. Therefore, if it were not for what the Liberal Government had done my hon. friend would not have very much to boast of to-day. And this is what we complain of. We do it as respectfully as we can, we do it with the best feeling it is possible to show.
In the matter of shipbuilding the record of the Government is an absolute blank. My hon. friend talks about the difficulty of getting money, but the Government has millions to spend in the purchase of _ a derelict railway, the Quebec and Saguenay, and, apparently, millions to spend on the construction of highways. Not a dollar, however, is devoted to shipbuilding. My hon. friend will build ships for any country in the world that wants them, but as for building ships for the benefit of the Canadian people-perish the thought! He admits .that the difficulties of the consuming population are very serious. They are more than serious. In many sections of Canada the people look forward to the coming winter with great anxiety because of the fear that they will not be able to get enough coal .to keep their houses warm and avoid suffering and hardship. The prices of all the necessaries of life have gone up tremendously, much more than they would have gone up if the Government had, even in a small way, taken charge of the water transportation of Canada and provided for the building of ships. My hon. friend says that they are suffering hardships in England; that they cannot get potatoes; that *they are living on allowances. Is that any answer to make to the people of a country that is 3,000 miles from the theatre of war, a country which is far richer in proportion to population than any other country in the world? There ought to be no distress in Canada, a country which is capable of producing enormous quantities of foodstuffs, which has an abundance of bituminous coal, and which is . alongside the great coal mines of Pennsylvania. The people are in actual distress because of the high cost of the necessaries of life. My hon. friend, although he admits the condition to
be serious, turns a deaf ear to the appeals which the people, through the members of this- Parliament, are making to him and to his Government to take some steps to secure cheaper transportation. You may theorize as much as you like; the only course for this Government to pursue, if they wish to remedy this condition, is to give contracts for the building of ships and, by taking charge of water transportation, cheapen the cost of carrying the necessaries of life from the point of production to the point of consumption. Why do they not do it? Is it because they have a prejudice against the building of ships? Let me implore them , to remember that it was only warships that they asked the people to believe they could not build in Canada. If they engage in the building of commercial vessels, they will not be regarded as having gone back on their policies. Let them not be afraid to do it; let them take a step which will be more advantageous to the people than anything else that they could do. Parliament would gladly ratify any proposal of that kind and I am sure that the country would be enthusiastic in its support of the Government's action. Indeed, they would almost -but not quite-forget many of the sins of which the Government have been guilty.


Mr. LOGGIE:: I was informed a few days ago that a shipbuilding company on the Miramichi river, who now own a shipyard which was in operation many years ago, are ready to construct immediately 5 ships of 500 tons each if they can get a contract from the Government or from the Imperial Munitions Board. I should think that ships of 500 tons would be very useful, if not for ocean trade, certainly for trade along the coast between Canadian and United States ports. The minister has said to-day that the Imperial Government have intimated that they do not think it wise .to construct sailing vessels for ocean traffic. I am willing to concede that there may be some question as to the wisdom of encouraging the construction of sailing vessels of that tonnage at this time. As sailing vessels are somewhat slow, they might find it difficult to get away from the submarines. But if the Government want ships of the tonnage I have mentioned, I direct their attention to this company which is in a position to enter into a contract for their construction.


William Pugsley: Would they furnish
auxiliary engines?


William Stewart Loggie: I suppose they would.


Charles Marcil: Will these ships being
built for the Imperial Government be used in the Canadian trade?	.


John Douglas Hazen: I assume that they will be used where they will be of most advantage.
- Mr. MARCIL: Having regard to the shipbuilding activity that has taken place in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and along the St. Lawrence without a national shipbuilding policy,-it must be evident to the minister that if the Government gave some sort of encouragement to the industry, it would be very materially extended. What we need is ships to carry the products of the country inland. The first trip of a subsidized steamer last year on the Baie des Chaleurs route to Gasp6 was made on the 5th of August, so that during the months of April, May, June and July not a single ship was available to convey to suitable markets the salmon caught in that vicinity, which are unparalleled in the world. In answer to questions which I asked on two or three occasions last year, the Minister of Trade and Commerce said that he was unable to get ships. This year he has put on a small river boat which had been hardly sufficient for the business on the St. John river, and which is not at all adequate for the business in whigh it is now engaged. It is unable to handle the trade, and along that whole coast there is practically no shipping whatever. The Baie des Chaleurs, on the Quebec as well as on the New Brunswick side, is one of the finest sheets of water on the North American continent. For tourists it is unsurpassed. There is an ocean trip in view of land, with an ever-changing scenic panorama. The resources of that peninsula have not been touched. There is enough pulpwood there to supply the North American continent for a century, but the Government has made no fttempt whatever to develop those resources.
The time would be opportune to start a shipbuilding industry on that coast. The same thing applies to Northumberland, Gloucester, Restigouche and the whole northern coast of New Brunswick, That is a remote part of Canada, but it is a part of Canada from which communication with Europe is easy, and it might toe utilized to supply eastern Canada with a great variety of things that are very much needed. Take for instance at the present moment the question of potatoes. The people of Ottawa are paying at present 45 cents a gallon of potatoes. I remember two or three years ago at a place where I spent the summer, potatoes were selling at 50 cents a barrel.
(Mr. Loggie.)
At Montreal, potatoes are selling now at $8 a barrel; I do not know what they are selling at in Toronto, but that is a condition of affairs which should not exist. If we had these schooners able to do the business of the Baie des Chaleurs and the St. Lawrence, just as in the old days, to transport the products of the country, the cost of living would toe very materially reduced. I remember in the old days in Montreal, when I was a boy, we used to go down to the Bonsecours market and buy a peck of Malpeque oysters at 25 cents, and we could get them at $1.50 a barrel. That is an industry that has been allowed -to go almost to the vanishing point, and to-day we are paying in Montreal $15 a barrel for oysters which bear the name of Malpeque, but I do not know whether they come from there or not. That is an industry that could have been developed easily by water transportation. Is it not ridiculous to see a magnificent waterway like the St. Lawrence and all its tributaries practically unused, because while the ships that navigate the St. Lawrence are used for ocean service, or communication abroad, none of the inland trade is developed? The minister has told us that an embargo has been placed on the importation of lumber into England. This would be an opportunity to have sailing vessels and smaller craft develop our lumber industry on the Baie des Chaleurs and the St. Lawrence. We have in those districts millions of acres of timber limits which are undeveloped on account of lack of communication. In my own constituency an important syndicate some five or six years ago purchased a large timber limit, 400 square miles, for, I think, over half a million dollars. There were three or four sawmills within reach pf that limit; tout they have been closed down, and the men who were employed in them had to leave that district and go to Bathurst and other places in New Brunswick where there was communication alpng the line of the Intercolonial. This large Robitaille timber limit, one of the finest timber limits in the whole otf eastern Canada, is idle Honday for lack of communication. We have a small railway with one train a day, doing the best it can with practically no rolling stock and without locomotives able to handle the traffic. We have no sailing vessels. In the county of Gasp6 we have a syndicate from Philadelphia which has spent three or four million dollars in the last few years to establish a large pulp industry in the endeavour to develop the natural industry of that district, but there is no way by which

the products of that industry can be taken t.o Montreal. There are no bottoms by which they can be taken either to the American market or to the Canadian market, and this railway which should have been linked with the Intercolonial 25 years ago and which was intended by Sir Charles Tupper, when he received the first vote of Parliament for it, as a branch line of the Intercolonial, remains as it is to-day, and the people at Gascons say that the wharf is in such a condition that whatever sailing craft does go there is unable to stop at this wharf, and that the people have to drive twenty miles to P.ort Daniel to ship their products, as in the same cld days of long ago.
The minister should realize that a vigorous shipbuilding industry is essential and indispensable in this country. The opportunity is furnished to him now to link his name with that great industry. Were he the representative of an inland constituency, and unaware of the advantage of shipbuilding, the matter would be different. Who is not aware that no country can be truly great unless it possesses a mercantile marine? What would England be to-day without a navy; what would she have been in peace time and what would she be in war time without a navy? Why should Canada, this young giant, which is doing such great things in the railway field, and which, in other enterprises, is second to none in the world, lag behind in this matter of shipbuilding when she has half of the fresh water of the continent at her disposal?. I was amazed to hear the Minister of Marine and- Fisheries practically admit that the shipbuilders of New Brunswick had lost their cunning and that shipbuilding there was almost a lost industry. My hon. friend from Northumberland (Mr. Loggie) corrected him on that score, and showed him that in that member's constituency the builders were prepared to go immediately into shipbuilding. The minister should take up this matter and see that it is broiight to a conclusion, because, if he does not do it himself, the time is not far distant when the public opinion of Canada will insist on the Dominion Government coming forward with a truly national shipbuilding policy for Canada.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister be good enough to answer my question? '


John Douglas Hazen: The hon. member asked me a question with regard to the tariff and an Order in Council. I do not want to answer the question off-hand without having that
Order in Council before me, because I would like to be thoroughly accurate in regard to the matter. My understanding, however, is that the machinery, plates and boilers that enter into the construction of ships, if those parts are imported, they either enter Canada free of duty or are entitled to a drawback of 99 per cent of the duty paid upon them.


John Howard Sinclair: Does it make any difference where you buy them?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not want to speak positively on the subject; I will get the Order in Council and send it to my hon. friend.


Mr. TURGEON:: No doubt everything that can be said on behalf of shipbuilding has been said, but still I might be permitted to make a few remarks >to the minister, so far as northern New Brunswick, especially Gloucester county, is concerned. When speaking on the Budget a few days ago, I earnestly advocated shipbuilding in Canada, and particularly the building of wooden ships in the Maritime Provinces. My leaning towards the building of small wooden ships is based on the fact that while we may be building large steel ships either for 'Canada or for the Empire, and while our builders and steel manufacturers may be building steel ships after the war is over, Canada will be left altogether powerless as to her local water traffic in the future. The more steel ships we build, even if those ships are not wanted by the Imperial Government, they will, as fast as they can be built in Canada, be bought by France or other nations requiring them, and Canada will be left altogether without ships unless we -start right away to build wooden ships for our coastwise and inland service, without which our trade will be crippled in the future. Wooden ships are the only kind we shall be able to preserve for ourselves after the war is over, and every possible effort should be made to build those ships. Perhaps the minister is aware that at Bathurst, which had formerly great wooden shipbuilding yards, there is one special company to-day which would be prepared to undertake the construction of wooden ships under any favourable conditions; 500 tons has been mentioned as the limit, but ,so far as Bathurst and that company are concerned-and I name the Bathurst company, with whose general manager I have had some conversation, not recently, but some months ago-they would be willing to build ships, not only of 500 tons, but up to

1,000	tons. The impression is that in northern New Brunswick the old wooden shipbuilders have gone to their graves, but I would say for the information of the minister that born carpenters who were able, two, three or four years ago, to build wooden ships of 125, 150 or 200 tons, which have taken the highest honour among the sea-goers of the day, ought to be able to extend their genius to building ships of 500 or 1,000 tons.	,
Ships of the kind that are now being built in other parts of Canada were built at Caraquet a few years ago. Every year our fishermen build schooners of from 50 to 100 tons without any outside assistance. They cut their own lumber in the woods, and build ships which are as good a,* any that sail the seas. I think every possible effort should be made to encourage those who are in a position to build ships in northern New Brunswick. I am not asking that shipbuilding be confined to Bathurst. Every winter there is a large quantity of lumber cut on the Caraquet river, and ships of 500 tons could easily be built there, and at Tracadie. I think every effort should be made by the Government of the day and by succeeding governments to develop the shipbuilding industry in this country both now and after the war.


John Hampden Burnham: Representing an inland constituency, . I may say that we in Ontario have frequently been in somewhat of a fog in regard to the shipbuilding industry in Canada. We hear statements made pro and con. Our hopes are raised at one minute only to be dashed the next. We are all anxious to see the shipbuilding industry in Canada develop.


William Pugsley: How can you develop it unless you begin to develop it?


John Hampden Burnham: I appreciate the logic of my hon. friend, but I do not appreciate the logic of the hon. member for Gloucester when he says that if shipbuilding were started down there, the ships would be nabbed up in a minute. If that is the case, why on earth do they not start to build ships?


Onésiphore Turgeon: Give us encouragement.


John Hampden Burnham: Is this the free trader who asks for bounties and subsidies? Is it any wonder we are in a fog?


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: You are not, surely.


John Hampden Burnham: We want to see these things encouraged. It is the policy of protection to maintain a balance or equili-
FMr. Turgeon.]
brium, and we all recognize that the balance as between rail and water transportation in Canada has not been preserved; we have too many railways, and too few lines of ships. The Atlantic shipping pool and other things of that description have collared the freight, and the consequence is that Canada is very largely debarred from the ocean. All this certainly ought to be corrected, and we hope it will be. We have been looking to the men of the sea, who have done so much in the past, to go on and develop the shipbuilding industry.


William Pugsley: I thought you wanted to encourage us.


John Hampden Burnham: We do.


William Pugsley: Why don't you do it.


John Hampden Burnham: We don't want to buy you. The truth is that wages in other countries have been so low that it did not pay Canadians to go into the business. But these things must naturally correct themselves. There must be a certain amount of industrial skill, of course. It would be absurd to maintain that Canada should provide bonuses for the shipbuilding industry.


Charles Marcil: How were the railways of Canada built up?


John Hampden Burnham: Largely by bonuses,
for which I am afraid the hon. member voted in many cases.


Charles Marcil: Is there any difference in principle between bonusing railways and bonusing ships?


John Hampden Burnham: Yes. If we bonused
shipbuilding we should land in 'the same position we are now in with regard to railways, and we do not want anything of that kind.


John Douglas Hazen: I hope we are not going to discuss the railway question on this item.


John Hampden Burnham: As these gentlemen are groping for light, and we are all doing that more or less, I thought an illustration would not be out of the way. We in Ontario, as I said before, are somewhat in a fog on this question of shipbuilding. We have shipbuilding firms in Ontario, at Toronto, Midland, Collingwood, Owen Sound and other places, and they are all thriving, and we in Ontario cannot understand why shipbuilding in the East cannot thrive too.


William Pugsley: In nearly all those cases was not a bonus given for the establishment of a dry dock and for a ship repair-

ing plant which, could be used for shipbuilding as well?


John Hampden Burnham: Do I understand my
hon. friend to say that Parliament sanctioned the expenditure of money in the direction indicated by him?


William Pugsley: Of course you do not
want a dry dock or the plant connected with a dry dock for wooden shipbuilding, but Poisons, Vickere-Maxim, the Colling-wood Shipbuilding Company, and the Port Arthur Company all received substantial aid from the Government.


John Hampden Burnham: The whole matter
simply comee down to this: the people of eastern Canada wish to see the development of wooden ships, and wooden ships alone.


William Pugsley: That is for a starter.


John Hampden Burnham: Aren't you doing
pretty well with steel ships?


William Pugsley: No.


John Hampden Burnham: Well, what is the matter with you?


John Howard Sinclair: It is impossible to get steel.


John Hampden Burnham: I thought one of our
biggest steel works was situated down East. I think I had better drop out of this discussion altogether.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: There are certain
facts with reference to the situation which are given a little more in detail in the report of the Department of Marine and Fisheries. I see in a report that was made to the minister by Mr. Robb an account of the legislation that has been passed in other countries for the assistance of shipbuilding. There is also a statement of Great Britain's losses in merchant shipping down to March 30, 1916, which shows ' that the British steamships lost up to that date amounted to 1,320,000 tons, and sailing vessels 19,000 tons. The total Allied losses in shipping since the outbreak of war to March 30, 1916, exclusive of trawlers, of which 246 were lost, amounted to 1,658,000 tons. In view of the activity of submarines since that time, the losses down to March 31, 1917, will probably ,be double that figure, which would bring the total to over 3,000,000 tons.	.
Then there is the loss of tonnage to neutral nations, amounting to 1,977,376 tons. Of course that amount also will be very largely increased. So wh shall have a total
destruction of vessels approximating 7,000,000 tons.


John Douglas Hazen: The latest statement I
have is that on January 1, 1917, the net loss to the British mercantile marine was a little less than five per cent of the whole.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Have you the tonnage?


John Douglas Hazen: No, only the percentage. I have the figures ,of tonnage in my office, but, unfortunately, they are not before me at the moment.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I think the figures
go to indicate that mercantile vessels of not 'less than 7,000,000 in the agggregate have been removed from seas. During the year 1915 Great Britain had added 344,000 tons as her contribution towards making up that loss.
The report contains a statement of what has been done by other countries in the way of promoting construction. In Austria-Hungary, they gra^it for steamships of iron and steel $8.10 for every gross ton. In the case of sailing ships of iron and steel, when more than half of the material employed is of home production, the bounty is increased by one per cent of its amount for every one per cent of such material in excess of fifty per cent. In the case of sailing ships of wood or mixed construction, for the hull they give $2.02 for every gross ton. In Denmark they give a refund of customs duties on imported materials used for the construction of new ships. In France, in 1906, the assistance toward the construction of steamships was fixed at a maximum of $33.58 per ton, to cover both hull and machinery, and to diminish gradually for ten years. This was divided up into various amounts for hull and machinery. There was a construction bounty for sailing ships of 150 tons and over at the rate of $7.78 a ton, and for vessels of less than 150 tons at $5.84 a ton. In the German Empire the bounties do not take the form of a premium on the construction of ships, but consist, of special customs facilities for goods destined for use in shipbuilding yards, and, in the second place, of preferential railway rates. In Italy they [DOT]give bounties in the form of navigation premiums, construction and repair bounties, and remission of customs duties, during a period of fifteen years. Japan, which now comes into the world's economy on the same plane with the western nations, began shipbuilding in 1910. They provide a bounty for steel vessels of 1,000 tons or over of $5.46 to $10.93 per ton of the gross tonnage

of the hull. In Norway the assistance of bounties is to cover the amount of customs duty on imported material used in the construction of vessels. In Eussia the estimates of the Department of Mercantile Marine included, for 1909 and subsequent years, a sum of $51,428.52 for the encouragement of shipbuilding.
An interesting statement is given of the tonnage of Canadian vessels from 1874 to 1916. This shows the transition of our registration. Comparing 1874 with 1915, the figures show as follows:-
	1874.	1915.
Province.	Tons.	Tons.New Brunswick	. 294,741	56,219Nova Scotia	. 479,669	125,567Quebec	. 218,946	267,897Ontario	. 113,008	312,971P. E. Island	. 48,338	11,518British Columbia	. 3,611	144,835It is rather surprising	to observe	by the
figures showing where registration of vessels takes place. In Collingwood, Ont., which is a construction point, the registration in 1915 was only 15,500 tons. In Toronto the registration amounted to 64,000 tons. A large registration is found at Port Arthur and also at Ottawa, these, I suppose, being small vessels for use on the lakes.
There has been construction of steel vessels in Montreal, and also in certain Ontario ports for some time. Steel vessels are now constructed in British Columbia. Their supply of plates must be drawn from points in the United States. I see no reason why British Columbia should present special advantages for the building of steel ships over other portions of the Dominion, as there is no supply of steel plates there. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries has told us that steel plates for the construction of ships are not to be had in Canada. I know that they are not manufactured here, but I think it is imperative that the Government should assist the construction of steel vessels in Canada by taking up this question of the production of steel plates. The Government are not going to be in any better shape to launch a shipbuilding policy after the war if they do not, in the meantime, provide for the production of steel plates in Canada.	.
Everything that can be made in steel, with the exception of large structural steel, which is now only made in Pittsburg, is made by the various steel industries of this country, and the question of encouraging the construction of steel plates in our steel industry, which has reached colossal proportions, is one that the Government should direct their attention to now. It is no use

talking of building vessels after the war if the Government is not going to move in the meantime in reference to assisting to develop the proposition of making steel plates in our steel industries. I am at a loss to know what the minister meant when he spoke about the Government assisting the steel industry in connection with the shipbuilding industry if the assistance that is required is not to be given until after the war. If they mean to do - anything after the war in regard to steel shipbuilding, they will be about as far ahead in the matter as they are to-day unless they begin now to assist in the manufacture of steel plates.
With regard to the construction of wooden vessels, it is all nonsense for the minister to say that the Government want to do what the British Government are doing through the Imperial Munitions Board in connection with the construction of wooden ships of a certain class. If the Government want to do anything similar in order to get a merchant marine, they can start by building .smaller vessels, for which they can get numerous contracts placed all over the Maritime Provinces. The minister does not answer this problem by reading a statement of the number of vessels that are being built, and telling us what the British Government are doing through the Imperial Munitions Board. The minister told us that the thing that was nearest to his heart was to have a Canadian mercantile marine. He is perfectly willing that Great Britain should build these ships through the Imperial Munitions Board, but he is not willing that the Canadian Government should do anything for their own shipbuilding industry. Why wait until after the war? Why, in view of the story of the wholesale destruction and disappearance from the sea of such a tremendous quantity of tonnage as
7,000,000 tons, should we in Canada not do anything to build either wooden or steel . ships until after the war? What was the meaning of Mr. Lloyd George's appeal: Give us ships and more ships to win the war? Is Canada not going to do anything in regard to that matter? Are we simply going to guarantee the credit of Great Britain to the extent of $10,000,000 and say that our duty has been fulfilled, and all the aid that we can give in this matter has been given? When the minister said that no ships would have been built in Canada but for that credit, he made a statement that I listened to with amazement. Are we to be told that Great

Britain had placed in the United States contracts for over a thousand vessels and that she preferred to go to the United States rather than to come to Canada? If so, it is time we found it out. When we are told the British Government would not come to Canada to build ships unless the Canadian Government agreed to provide a credit for them, I want to know why they went to the United States to build ships. They went without getting a credit from the Government of the United States. The reason they went there was purely a business proposition. Why should they not have come to Canada? Unless there is a move made by the Government we are in this unfortunate position that we will have no mercantile marine at all between what has been destroyed and what has been commandeered by the British Government. It will be almost impossible to handle our natural products on the sea or to carry on our interprovincial trade and the result will be that when the war is over, if we are going to do nothing, we * will have no mercantile marine to build up our trade and the whole thing will be gone. We will have no provision in this country for the manufacture of steel plate which will enable us to undertake steel shipbuilding and under these circumstances the imperative demand is that the Government should move now and do something.
Public works chargeable to capital-To provide for construction and completion of dredging plant for St. Lawrence river from Montreal to Father Point, $216,550.


John Howard Sinclair: Where is the minister going to construct this dredging plant?


John Douglas Hazen: This plant is in connection with the shipyard at Sorel. The vote last year was $452,715, the vote this year is $216,550, decrease $236,165. The estimated expenditure for this year: Maintenance of shipyard, $63,550; improvements to shipyard, $3,000. There is now under construction by the Canadian Vickers a self-propelling sea-going dredge at an estimated cost of $150,000. The repair work in connection with the tugs, dredges, and fleet on the river St. Lawrence is done at Sorel. The shipyard there does a certain amount of construction work when new construction is required, but this year we have no new work. The yard is doing a certain amount of work for other purposes which I do not wish to mention publicly.


Charles Marcil: Is there any part of the work that the minister can mention?


John Douglas Hazen: It is the building of vessels which are not to be used in connection with the channel but in connection with the war.


Charles Marcil: Has the total number of employees increased?


John Douglas Hazen: The number employed is a little below 800.


Charles Marcil: Is that more than usual?


John Douglas Hazen: At times the number employed runs to 1,100 or 1,200, but it generally falls off during the summer.


Charles Marcil: I saw references in the Montreal papers to a strike that had taken place in the Sorel shipyard. It was stated that the men had been given an increase and that although the strike seemed to be settled there was still some grumbling.


John Douglas Hazen: Everybody is at work again and the shipyard is running as usual.


Charles Marcil: At increased pay?


John Douglas Hazen: The strike, in my judgment was a very "improper one. The first I knew of it was that the men had gone out. Whenever representations are made to us we give them prompt consideration, and if representations had been made they would have been considered. As a matter of fact the scale of pay of some of the men was not, under the circumstances, as much as it should have been and after consulting with the Labour Department we got the matter adjusted.


Charles Marcil: Did the strike include all the hands?


John Douglas Hazen: It included enough to actually cause the shutting down of the shipyard. I think the great bulk of the men did not approve of the strike, because when I gave orders to close down the yard pending adjustment, many men came to the offi-' cers of the department and expressed regret at what had occurred and asked to be permitted to go back at once, as they were perfectly satisfied that the department would deal justly with any cases that might arise, as in all such matters, as a rule, the condition of affairs was not brought about by dissatisfaction on the part of all but on the part of a few, and some acted very unwisely and in - a way calculated to bring injury on many others who were perfectly satisfied with the conditions existing. I am glad to say that the differences have been adjusted. '

Mr. MARCH,: Would the minister give a statement of his programme on the St. Lawrence for the coming year, dredging, etc.?


John Douglas Hazen: We are going on with the dredging, but not on as large a scale as last year, because we feel the necessity of curtailing expenses. The channel is in good condition according to all reports. But we are not doing as much work. We are still continuing to straighten the channel at the points where it needs straightening, and we __ are deepening it down to thirty-five feet and widening it in portions where it is too narrow. But in doing that work we are not keeping as large a force as in previous years. We have practically cut off the night shift. That is where the saving of $500,000 largely comes in.


Charles Marcil: The work this year will be between lake St. Peter and Quebec?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, and below Quebec.


Charles Marcil: On the north channel?


John Douglas Hazen: On the north channel.


Charles Marcil: Is that ready for navigation?


John Douglas Hazen: Not yet.


Charles Marcil: When is it hoped that this channel will be opened?


John Douglas Hazen: In the course of a year and a half or two years. The slackening of work this year will defer its completion.


Charles Marcil: Is there the same depth of water in that as in the south channel?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Charles Marcil: What is the idea in having the north channel?


John Douglas Hazen: It is felt that it will be much safer. It is on the south side that the only >obstruction to successful navigation below Quebec occurs. By opening the north channel we will have much safer navigation.


Charles Marcil: Has there been any
trouble with water levels in the St. Lawrence lately?	[DOT]


John Douglas Hazen: No. We had the Commission which inquired into it and made a report recommending that the material taken out in dredging the channel be used in forming dams to keep the water back. Last year the water was unusually low in the St. Lawrence, but the largest steamers,

drawing 27 feet, and vessels of that kind, passed up and down the river without any difficulty anid in perfect safety.
At six o'clock the House resumed and then took recess.
After Recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
*13111 No. 51, for the relief of Delbert Ralph O'Neil.-Mr. Buchanan.
Bill No. 52, for the relief of Edward Austin Barnwell.-Mt. R. B. Bennett.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Air. Rainvil'le in the Chair.
Lighthouse and coast service-Agencies, rents and contingencies, $166,000.
["We will let the item stand,\nwith the understanding that it is open to hon. members to discuss any questions on it, as there are a number not present to-night who are interested in these Estimates. I might say to my hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) that in accordance with his suggestion of last session I propose, on taking up the Fisheries Estimates, to make a general statement on the progress of the fisheries. I had perhaps better not start that to-night.\nProgress reported.\nOn the motion of Hon. Mr. Hazen the House adjourned at 11 o'clock p.m.\nMonday, June 4, 1917."]
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The junior member
for Halifax (Mr. Maclean) desired me, in his absence, to ask the minister for the facts in connection with the dismissal of James Lovitt from the Marine office at Halifax.


John Douglas Hazen: Mr. Lovitt was dismissed
on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, the representative of the constituency. I would suggest that the hon. gentleman ask the question when the Prime Minister is here.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: It would be in order that the papers in connection with the matter be brought down.


John Douglas Hazen: The deputy minister tells
me that everything on file in the department in connection with the matter has 1 been brought down.


John Howard Sinclair: When we discussed this matter on a previous occasion, we understood that the papers would be brought down when the Estimates were reached.


John Douglas Hazen: That must have been when I was away. If there are any other papers, I will see that they are brought down, and, if hon. gentlemen wish it, we will let an item stand so that the member for Halifax will have an opportunity of discussing the matter when he returns.
Air. A1ACDONALD: Why was Air. Lovitt
dismissed?


John Douglas Hazen: I think it was on the ground
of partisanship.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: It was a long time
after the election. '


John Douglas Hazen: The rule laid down by the right hon. leader of the Opposition was that if a member of Parliament asked for the dismissal of an official on the ground of political partisanship and was willing to take the responsibility foT it, his request would be granted. I have never asked the chairman to enforce the rule that discussions in Committee of Supply should be absolutely confined to the item under consideration. I am always willing that there should he a great deal of latitude, so that this matter can be discussed on any other item.	-


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Last summer, without any apparent reason, the agency of the Marine and Fisheries Department in my county was suddenly closed and the agent, Mr. Noonan, summarily dropped. The reason given was that certain boats had passed over to the Railway Department. The office was subsequently reopened, and on the death of the person then in charge, a new .officer was appointed at a reduced salary. Is this condition to be permanent, or is it only temporary?	[DOT]


John Douglas Hazen: My recollection is that the agent at Pdctou was receiving $1,000 a year. His duties were largely in connection with the crossing to Prince Edward Island and the management of the boats during the winter months. In view of the changes which were made in that service, and acting on what I thought was the absolutely correct information given by my officials, I decided that the office should be closed. I did not think that the work done would be sufficient to justify the continuance of an agency there. Reports were subsequently made to me, however, by officials of the department, pointing out that this agent had been doing other work as well in connection with the Department of Naval Service, the remuneration for which was covered by his salary as agent for the Marine and Fisheries Department.
In consequence of those reports which I received from the Inspector of the Marine Agencies and other officials in my department, I decided to continue the office, but at a salary of only $400, which it occurred to me would be sufficient to cover the work which the agent would do. The policy of the department would be to continue the agency there but at the reduced salary of $400 instead of $1,000.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Is the minister
aware of the necessity of telephonic communication with Pictou Island? I understand that it was brought to his attention. There is an absolute necessity of having telephonic communication with the island if the life-saving station is to be made of any practical value. The life-saving station is-at a point about ten miles away from the nearest telegraph or telephone, and there is no way of communicating in the event of a wreck. A cable was to be laid,
I think, in conjunction with the Government; I understand that petitions have been sent to the department asking for that, and I am instructed that Mr. Nickerson, the late inspector of life-saving stations, recommended to the department the necessity of furnishing some means of communication with the island.


John Douglas Hazen: The papers in connection with that matter would be in the Department of Naval Affairs, and consequently I have not the papers, nor the information here to-night. If the hon. member will let the matter stand until the estimates of that department are brought up, I will then bring down all the papers.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Certainly.


John Howard Sinclair: I asked the minister for information in regard to appointments in his department under section 21 of the Civil Service Act. Perhaps I had better read the section in order that he may fully understand what I mean.


John Douglas Hazen: I understand it.


John Howard Sinclair: Section 21 of the Civil Service Act reads:
If the deputy head reports that the knowledge and ahility requisite for the position are wholly or in part professional, technical or otherwise peculiar, the Governor in Council, upon the recommendation of the head1 of the department based on the report in writing of the deputy head, may appoint a person to the position without competitive examination and without reference to the age limit, provided the said person obtains from the Commission a certificate, to be given with or without examination, as is determined by the regulations of the Commission, that he possesses the requisite knowledge and ahility and is duly qualified as to health, character and habits.
I discovered that a very large number of appointments were being made by the present Administration under section 21, and I was trying to ascertain from the various departments why they found it necessary to resort so generally to this section. There are not a very large number in the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


John Douglas Hazen: Six, I think.


John Howard Sinclair: I find from a return
that there were two appointments after competitive examination and four without competitive examination in the Marine and Fisheries Department. In the Naval Service, there were four appointed after competitive examination and two without competitive examination, making twelve altogether.


John Douglas Hazen: Ten altogether, is it not?


John Howard Sinclair: No, twelve. The purpose of the Civil Service Act was that civil servants should be appointed wholly on their merits after competitive examination, and it is important for the efficiency of the service that this rule be strictly adhered to. I understand that occasionally a friend of the Government desires to obtain an appointment in some department, and he is perhaps too old to ibe taken in under the ordinary rules, or unable to pass an examination, and in that event section 21 is resorted to. This was never intended at the time the Act was passed. This section was intended for the appointment of officials with professional or technical ability. The explanation given when the Act was passed in 1908 was that occasionally the Government would require to introduce into the Civil Service some eminent man from abroad or perhaps from Canada who would not be willing to submit himself to an examination by the commission, or who, perhaps, would be over age. The Marine Department might want an engineer or some man of ability, and if such a one were appointed no one would complain; but when we find that the present Administration has appointed 174 men under section 21, it is clear to every one that there is an abuse. We want to ascertain who is the sinner who is perpetrating these abuses, and while I do not say that the Minister of Marine has perpetrated any, I would like to have from him the information as to whom he has appointed in his department, the name of each, age at the time of appointment, former employment, present employment, salary paid, and the reason why section 21 was resorted to in each case.


John Douglas Hazen: In the Department of Marine and Fisheries, during the period of nearly six years that I have been head of that department, there have been six such appointments, as is shown by a return laid on the table of the House. I do not know whether I can name the officials from memory, but I can name some. One is Mr. 
Ge'orge Herbert Flood, who was appointed purchasing agent of the department. When I came into office, the purchasing agent was Mr. Cecil Doutre, who was a very satisfactory official. Mr. Doutre felt that he could earn a larger salary and improve his position outside of the department, and, very much to my regret, he resigned. The position of purchasing agent is one of great importance. After discussing the matter with my officials, I came to the conclusion that it was absolutely necessary to have in that position some one who had previous experience, not only in business, but in the business of the department itself. It occurred to us it would be proper to promote one of the agents, and, on looking over the list of agents, we concluded that the best appointment we could make would be that of Mr. George Herbert Flood, who was agent of the department in the city of St. John, and who had been appointed a few years before I came into office. Speaking offhand, I may say that at the time of his appointment he was a man of about forty-five or forty-six years, perhaps a little more. His record in the department was wonderfully good; we regarded him as a competent official, and we decided in the interest of the department that we could not do better than to appoint Mr. Flood. In consequence	of	his age, we	hadto appoint	him under section	21.
If I recollect aright, the Civil Service Commissioners approved of his qualifications. Another gentleman appointed under this section was Mr. McDonell, in connection with the shipping branch of the department. He had been in the department for five years when this vacancy occurred. An examination was held, which he passed most satisfactorily, and which showed that he possessed the necessary technical knowledge. His position is assistant to the chairman of the Board of Steamship Inspection, which requires considerable technical knowledge and skill regarding the construction of ships, boilers, and so forth. Another gentleman appointed under this section was Mr. Thomas Ferguson, the present chairman of the Board of Steamship Inspection. He had been in the outside service for a good many years, and was considered to be the best qualified man for this position.


John Howard Sinclair: Perhaps the minister could give me all the names and particulars later on.


John Douglas Hazen: I shall be glad to do so when the Naval estimates are before the House.


John Howard Sinclair: I see toy a return brought down a few days ago that there has been practically no increase in the staff of the Department of Marine and Fisheries during the last four or five years, tout that there has been a large increase in the expenditure of the department.


John Douglas Hazen: That comes under the Naval Department.


John Howard Sinclair: I am speaking of the Fisheries Department.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, but the Fisheries are administered by the Department of Naval Service. My hon. friend will recollect that we have discussed this time and again in the House. About three years ago, in order to equalize the work of the two departments, one of which was heavy and the other comparatively light, the Fisheries were brought under the Department of the Naval Service.


John Howard Sinclair: The increase is therefore in the staff of the Naval Department.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. There has been no
increase in the staff of the Marine and Fisheries Department.


John Howard Sinclair: What increase has there been in the staff of the Naval Department?


John Douglas Hazen: I could not 6ay offhand,
but I shall be glad to give my hon. friend the information when the Naval Estimates are up.	.
Salaries and allowances to lightkeepers, $425,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Has any change been
made in this service?


John Douglas Hazen: There is a slight change.
The expenditure for 1915-16 was $449,961, and the expenditure for the year ending March 31, 1917, $460,999.74. As the service is gradually being enlarged from year to year, there is a corresponding increase in the expenditure, as more lights are established and more lightkeepers appointed. The expenditure toy provinces, in round numbers, is:	Nova Scotia $121,000, Prince
Edward Island $16,000, New Brunswick $50,000, Quebec $69,000, Montreal district of Quebec $32,000, Ontario $94,000, British Columbia $65,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it intended to increase the salaries of the lightkeepers?


John Douglas Hazen: We have received requests from different parts of the country for an increase in the pay of lightkeepers, and we shall take this matter into consideration.


Charles Marcil: Will anything be done
in that regard this session?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think so. ,


Mr. MURPHY:: I should like to draw the minister's attention to the lighting of the Rideau canal. I was under the impression that that was done by the Department of Railways and Canals. I brought to the attention of the Minister of Railways a few days ago the fact that the canal had been lighted above. Smith's Falls, that is, that portion running through Leeds, Lanark, Grenville and Frontenac counties, but that portion running through the counties of Russell and Carleton had not been lighted this season. Possibly this is an omission, which will be rectified on the minister's attention being directed to it. I do not wish to delay the committee at all, and I will take the liberty of sending my hon. friend a small file of correspondence tomorrow, knowing that he will have the matter attended to. It is represented to me that there are about 1,000 power boats on this waterway, representing an investment of at least $1,000,000, and that by reason of the increased production taking place along the canal and the river there will be a great increase in navigation this year. The prospect is also held out that unless present conditions materially change, coal may be brought down this waterway as in years past. For these reasons, the lighting of what is represented to me to be possibly the most dangerous part of the channel is a very important matter, and if my hon. friend will be good enough to say he will have this matter attended to, I will send him the correspondence tomorrow or the next day.


John Douglas Hazen: I shall be very glad to attend to the matter. The procedure when lights are applied for is to send the applications to the Lighthouse Board of Canada, which consists of the deputy minister and the chief engineer of the department, the inspector of lights, and the Chairman of the Shipping Federation of Canada, and the Chairman of the Dominion Marine Association. The board meets regularly, and when an application comes before them for a light or a buoy or some other aid to navigation, the matter is referred to them and they get reports from the inspector of lights and other sources, and then decide whether the request shall be granted. There is also a gentleman on the Pacific coast, Captain Troup, who deals with these matters on that side of the continent.


Charles Murphy: That would be the procedure in case a new light or buoy was

asked for, but in this case the lights have been in existence, but they have not been placed this season.


John Douglas Hazen: I will look into that.
Maintenance and repairs to lighthouses, $750,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This is to provide for the maintenance of aids to navigation, including the cost of supplies, such as fuel, illum-inants, cleaning material and other supplies, with the delivery of the same, and also the cost of repairs to these aids to - navigation. The amount spent in this service in 1915-16 was $604,000, and last year it was $654,000. The increase was mainly due to the higher prices of supplies. The expenditure was divided by provinces as follows. Nova Scotia, $125,000; Prince Edward Island, $13,000; New Brunswick, $94,000; Quebec $123,000; Montreal, $51,000; Ontario, $94,000; British Columbia, $77,000; General, $14,700. The cost of this work of maintenance cannot be predetermined, but the officer whose business it is to report on this matter says that the amount asked for will be ample for the year. We will keep the expenditure as low as possible, though it is difficult to . keep it down on account of the increased cost of supplies.
Mr. MeKENZIE: Is anything being done with regard to Ingonish harbour, in Victoria county? It was deepened twelve years ago, but before that it was rather a bar harbour. The entrance to the harbour is under the famous Cape Smoky, the highest peak in Nova Scotia, and I understand that the engineer sent report on the project, advised that range lights could not be placed there on account of the height and steepness of the mountain. There are aids to navigation there which are fairly useful in the daytime, but which do not help at night. This harbour is very much used, especially for fishermen and large vessels for shelter, and also by three or four steamers running between Halifax and Cape Breton and Newfoundland. I have advised putting lighted buoys at the entrance of this harbour. Three or four on either side would be much help.


John Douglas Hazen: I will refer the matter to the Lighthouse Board and ask them to make a report with a recommendation.
Construction of lighthouses and aids to navigation, including apparatus, submarine signals, and providing suitable boats for carrying on construction work, $600,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This is $150,000 less than was asked for last year. In view of exist-

ing conditions we have cut down our construction work to the lowest point consistent with the maintenance of this service efficiently. Last year our expenditure was $325,068. This vote is asked for to provide new aids to navigation, lighthouses, beacons, buoys, etc., including apparatus and machinery, as well as large repairs to existing buildings, the replacing of obsolete buildings and equipment for the safety of vessels of deep draught, the chartering of any boats temporarily necessary to carry on the work, the regulation of traffic in the Detroit river and the administration of the lighthouse depot at Prescott. The principal works proposed, all of which have been recommended by the Lighthouse Board, are as follows:



[Stage Direction]
Louisburg, improved fog alarm apparatus	$9,000
Cape Hoseway, improved	apparatus...	10,000
Cape Fourchu, changing steam fog
alarm to oil	 6,000
Seal Island, changing steam fog alarm
to oil	 5,000
Buoys and beacons.,	10,000
General improvements to lights and fog
alarms	10,000
Minor and unforeseen works	and	repairs	15,000
[Stage Direction]
PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND. Charlottetown, repairs to marine wharf. $20,000
Buoys and 'beacons	 * [DOT]	2,000
General improvements to lights and fog
alarms	
Minor and unforeseen works and repairs 3,000 East Point, changing steam fog alarm
to oil	 5'000
New Brunswick.
Cape Enrage, changing steam fog
alarm to oil	
Indian Point, New range	
St. John Depot, Deepening of berths,
etc	
Buoys and beacons	
General improvements to lights and fog Sil&rnis [DOT][DOT]	[DOT][DOT]	[DOT][DOT]	[DOT][DOT]	[DOT][DOT]	[DOT] [DOT]	[DOT][DOT]	[DOT][DOT]	[DOT] [DOT]
Minor and unforeseen works and repairs
[Stage Direction]
Quebec.
[Stage Direction]
Little Metis, Fog alarm	
Heath Point, Dwelling	
Upper Traverse, Repairs to pier..	..
Buoys and beacons	
General improvements to lights and fog
alarms	
Quebec shops and yard	
Minor and unforeseen works and repairs	
Anticosti, erection, etc
[Stage Direction]
The item with reference to Anticosti Island is for the erection of two lights on

the north side of the island. These are being erected there after consultation with the authorities of the British Admiralty,, as it is thought that the northern channel, in view of war conditions, may be used to a much greater extent than in the past, and it is desirable to have the channel better lighted.
Montreal District.
Bellerive park, Range	lights	$2,000
Beaurepaire, Range lights	 3,000
Buoys and beacons	 5,000
General improvements to lights and fog
alarms	 [DOT]	 5,000
Plant, including upkeep of boats and
scows	 10,000
Unforeseen and minor works and repairs	 10,000
[Stage Direction]
Ontario.
Point Abino, New Lighthouse, fog
alarm dwelling	$45,000
Quebec Harbour, Michipicoten Island,
Improved ranges	 5,000
General improvements to lights and fog
alarms	 15,000
Buoys and beacons		10,000
Unforeseen minor works and repairs. 25,000
[Stage Direction]
British Columbia.
Triple Island, Concrete lighthouse, fog
alarm and dwelling	$30,000
Ogden Point, Victoria, Lighted beacon 2,000
Buoys and beacons	 15,000
General improvements to lights and fog
alarms	 18,000
Minor and unforeseen works and repairs	  10,000
[Stage Direction]
While there is use for a lighthouse at Triple Island at the entrance to Prince Rupert harbour, and while it is work that will have to be undertaken in the near future, it may not be necessary to proceed with it this year. We have found, in connection with lighthouse work in British Columbia, very great difficulty in getting tenders and a good deal of trouble in getting men experienced in this class of work owing to causes created by the war. These are the principal items of work that will be undertaken this year.
John Howard Sinclair: Does it include aids to navigation in Hudson Bay?


John Douglas Hazen: We are not contemplating any additional expenditures in Hudson Bay this year.


John Howard Sinclair: Have you already some lighthouses in Hudson Bay?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, buoys, lighthouses and beacons. If conditions were normal we would do more, but there is very great difficulty in getting ships to carry stuff or to work there.


John Howard Sinclair: Are there any lights in
operation?


John Douglas Hazen: They are either in operation or they are ready to be put in operation the moment the necessity arises.


John Howard Sinclair: What has the minister done in the way of lighting Hudson Bay?


John Douglas Hazen: Down through the straits there have been placed ten or twelve lights -I think ten lights-and beacons.


Mr. OLIVER:: Is there any light or beacon on Mansfield Island?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Charles Murphy: Is the wireless station there under my hon. friend's department?


John Douglas Hazen: It is under the department of the Naval Service.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: What amount was spent last year in Hudson Bay?


John Douglas Hazen: My deputy will look it up in the Auditor General's report.


Charles Marcil: Would the minister explain what it is proposed to do at Anticosti Island? I visited Anticosti some years ago and met Mr. Menier's representative, and he told me that they had negotiated with the department to take over some lights which Mr. Menier had erected. I understand it is proposed to render the north channel navigable.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. The negotiations with Mr. Menier took place before I was in the department, but I have heard the matter discussed in the department and I understand the department took oveT all the lights on the island with the exception of one which they decided not to take over because they thought that Mr. Menier had erected that simply for his own personal benefit, and it was not in general use as an aid to navigation. The lights for which provision is being made on the north side of the island are to be erected so that ships can pass through the northern channel with safety. This is done at the suggestion of the authorities of the Admiralty, who believe that under existing conditions and because of the submarine danger, it may be necessary to use that north channel to an extent and in a way that it was never used before, and these lights are being established there as a guide to mariners.


Frank Oliver: Are there any lights indicating Churchill harbour on Hudson Bay?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think so.


Frank Oliver: I suppose there are at
Nelson harbour?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, at Nelson. We sent
a large number of buoys to Nelson two years ago.


Mr. NESBITT:: Have they floated away?


John Douglas Hazen: No, they have 'been looked after and taken, care of. They are taken up in the fall and put down again when navigation opens.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it the policy of the
department to stop expenditure in Hudson Bay for the present or'until after the war?


John Douglas Hazen: That is a matter that has not been decided. We will be guided by circumstances. With the great scarcity of vessels which was spoken of this afternoon it is very doubtful whether many vessels will go into Hudson Bay this year. But we have the straits fairly well lighted now. That is an enormous improvement and adds very much to the safety of navigation. We are prepared to do what is necessary if it is in the public interest that it should be done.


Charles Murphy: I observe that this item covers submarine signals.


John Douglas Hazen: That has nothing to do
with submarines. There is a bell Tung in foggy weather and it is heard on ships that are equipped with a corresponding apparatus.


John Howard Sinclair: How many of these submarine bells are there, and where?


John Douglas Hazen: At Fame Point, Louisburg, Point Lepreau, Halifax and Lorneville, on the coast of St. John county.
Lighthouse and Coast Service-Signal service, $60,000.


John Douglas Hazen: This service has been in
existence for a good many years and was established to maintain communication between ship and shore by .means of flag signals. It extends from St. John and Halifax to Cape Race and Belle Isle, and up the gulf and river St. Lawrence and the lakes as far as Sault Ste. Marie. The agents at the different points receive small salaries, some of them $200 and some more. These stations report the movements of vessels to Montreal, Quebec, Sydney, Halifax and St. John. They report water conditions daily to Montreal, Quebec, Halifax or St. John. Montreal, Quebec and St. John publish daily bulletins giving ice and weather

conditions, and movements of vessels. Montreal publishes daily the depth of water in the various parts of the ship channel. The signal service offices at Montreal, Quebec and St. John are open day and night to furnish to the public information regarding shipping matters. The telegraph system of the Department of Public Works on the north shore of the St. Lawrence reports the movements of vessels engaged in the coasting trade, to the signal service at Quebec. The collectors of customs on the St. Lawrence and on the Atlantic coast and the bay of Fundy report the arrival and departure of vessels engaged in overseas traffic to Lloyd's agent at Quebec or St. John.


John Howard Sinclair: How does the information of the movement of vessels reach the public?


John Douglas Hazen: Before the war all of that information was published in the newspapers. Publication has ceased since the beginning of the war.


John Howard Sinclair: Has my hon. friend considered the importance to owners of getting this information about their vessels? The owner of a vessel whose head office is in Montreal may have a ship which passes Cape Race on the way to England, or inward bound. It would be very important for him to know that the ship had passed Cape Race at a given hour. The information might reach the Marine Department hut not the owner if he did not happen to live in Montreal.


John Douglas Hazen: The agent or owner of the vessel is communicated with by the shipping office; that information is furnished to him by the signal officer at Montreal or whatever port it may he.


John Howard Sinclair: I suppose it would be an advantage to have the signal officer at Cape Race wire at once to the owner.


John Douglas Hazen: The way it practically works out is that the man, say at Cape Race, wires to the port to which he reports the names of all vessels that have passed inward or outward. He does that twice a day.


John Howard Sinclair: I know, as a matter of fact, that the agents at the stations the minister has mentioned do not report to owners of vessels when they pass
9	p.m. these points; at least I know of cases* where they have not done so. I also know of cases where the owners

have made private arrangements with the signal officers to get the information when tire vessels pass. This is a very important and useful service, and its administration might be greatly improved if the minister would investigate it and see that regulations are made that would give this information to the owners of the vessels, and, in ordinary times, to the public.
Lighthouse and Coast Service-Administration of pilotage and maintenance and repairs to steamer Eureka, $56,300.


John Douglas Hazen: This is the expenditure in connection with pilotage on the St. Lawrence and the maintenance of the Eureka, which is kept at Father Point where pilots board and leave vessels. During a portion of the time they live on the steamboat. The vote is the same as last year, and we spent last year about $42,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Is the whole of this expended in the St. Lawrence?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Charles Marcil: Are the pilots still taken on and off at Father Point?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Charles Marcil: Was any effect given to the recommendations, made some time ago after the loss of a steamer there, with regard to the taking on and off of pilots?


John Douglas Hazen: Every recommendation
made by the Pilotage Commission which was appointed some years ago was carried out, with the exception of that with regard to the pilots. In order to carry out that recommendation we have to have two boats instead of one, but so far we have not provided an additional boat.
Maintenance and repairs to wharves, $10,000.


John Douglas Hazen: After wharves have been constructed by the Public Works Department they automatically come under the control of the Department of Marine and Fisheries so far as ordinary management and the collection of revenue are concerned. The Governor in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, then appoints a wharfinger, whose business it is to collect the tolls and look after the wharves. Repairs amounting to $50 or over are attended to by the Department of Public Works; those under $50 are made by the Department of Marine and Fisheries. This sum of $10,000 is for that purpose. Last year we expended only $5,460 and in 1915-16 about $8,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Whose duty is it to look after the repairs to these wharves in the province of Nova Scotia?


John Douglas Hazen: If the wharf is out of repair, it is the duty of the wharfinger to report to the department. If the repairs required are of an extensive character, his report is forwarded to the Public Works officer in the province who is instructed to report to the Chief Engineer at Ottawa. This is a very old system. I rather think that the Department of Marine and Fisheries should have larger control of expenditures in connection with repairs, as it otherwise has complete control of the wharves.


John Howard Sinclair: How are the wharfingers paid?


John Douglas Hazen: Like the harbour masters
they are allowed a certain percentage of the collections up to a certain amount. In [DOT] some cases the collections are a negative quantity because some of the wharves used by the fishermen are exempt from tolls.


Alexander William Chisholm: Is it the custom of the department to appoint a wharfinger when a wharf is handed over tp it >by the. Public Works Department?


John Douglas Hazen: That is the custom, but the remuneration is so small that in some cases it is impossible to get a man in the neighbourhood who will act as wharfinger.


Alexander William Chisholm: Last year a
small expenditure was made at Margaree Harbour upon a pier which was constructed primarily for the purpose of directing the current of the Margaree river. Shortly afterward, the fishermen commenced to use the pier for the landing of their fish. The department subsequently appointed a wharfinger who proceeded to collect tolls from the fishermen-the first time that had been done in the history of the place. It is absurd that a wharfinger should be employed on that pier, and I would suggest that the minister cancel the appointment forthwith.


John Douglas Hazen: We will look info the matter.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the gross
amount received by way of revenue from the wharves?


John Douglas Hazen: In 1915-16, $56,261, an increase of $23,037 over the previous year. $36,908 of that amount was collected in New Brunswick, of which $34,000 was collected at the city of St. John from the large wharves that were built by the Public Works Department a short time ago.


John Howard Sinclair: How much of that
money was used in paying the wharfingers?


John Douglas Hazen: I think this was the net
amount received.


John Howard Sinclair: What percentage was paid in St. John to the wharfingers?


John Douglas Hazen: There are three wharves at St. John. When I came into office there was one wharf, of which Mr. Elkin is the wharfinger. He receives $1,500 a year. When the second wharf was finished, Mr Cowan, who, I am sorry to say, died the other day, was appointed wharfinger, and he received a similar salary. When the third wharf was completed, I did not appoint a wharfinger; I made an arrangement by which the work would be done through the office of the Department of Marine and Fisheries in the city of St. John. I thought that was a better arrangement. As a matter of fact, we are at present considering the advisability of doing away altogether with these wharfingers and placing the responsibility of collecting the rents in the hands of the agent of the Marine and Fisheries Department. I have not yet come to a conclusion, but I have ask^d my officials for a report as to the advisability of taking that course.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I feel I should appeal to my hon. friend, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, to have repairs done at. Perce wharf in the county of Gaspe.


John Douglas Hazen: Would the repairs cost more than $50?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


John Douglas Hazen: Then my hon. friend
should make his appeal to the Minister cf Public Works.


Rodolphe Lemieux: -As that minister is not in the House and as he is not very often in the House, I appeal to a gentleman who honours us with his presence. The whart having been completed, has been transferred to the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and therefore, diplomatically speaking, the recommendation for the repairs should come through the Marine Department. This wharf was built some years ago when I had the honour to represent the county of Gaspe. Perce is the shire town for the whole district, and there is quite a steamer service between Quebec, Montreal, and the Bale des Chaleurs, as well as between Oampbellton and Dalhousie. The Perce wharf is the most important in that district, and I am sure it pays its way, but during the last three or four years it has been completely abandoned; no repairs

have been made to it, and, as a result-and I saw the wharf last summer-it has been cut in two by the seas. It is a great pity that a wharf which has cost in the neighbourhood of fifty or sixty thousand dollars should become a ruin owing to the indifference of the Department of Public Works. I would advise my hon. friend to represent to the Minister of Public Works that this wharf should be properly repaired, because the public are nrow obliged to travel in badges a mile or two out from the harbour to get on board the steamer.


John Douglas Hazen: I shall be glad to make
representations to the Minister of Public Works.


Charles Marcil: I should like t.o make a
similar request on behalf of the wharf at Gascons which is not veTy far distant from Perce. This wharf has broken in two and it has been utterly abandoned.


John Douglas Hazen: There i- a question on the Order Paper about it


Charles Marcil: Yes. Gascons is an important point. The people there have to go about twenty miles to Port Daniel where there is another wharf, and that is a great inconvenience. The same remark applies to the wharf at St. Charles de Caplan and the wharf at Bonaventure. General repairs to those wharves are required. The policy, during the war, to put the case mildly, seems to have been not to spend anything in that district, and very little has been done, the result being that Government property is becoming dilapidated. I should like to ask the minister about the wharf at Miguasha Point off Dalhousie which was built by the Department of Public Works and which after remaining under the control of that department for some time, was transferred to the Department of Marine and Fisheries. After the appointment of a wharfinger, an attempt was made to collect tolls. The wharf is used largely by market gardeners who go to Dalhousie and who are unwilling to pay the-tolls, and I understand that the ferry boat refuses to land at the wharf. Has the department abandoned the collection of tolls, or will it insist on collecting them during the present season.


John Douglas Hazen: My experience in regard to these small wharves is that the Government gets such a very small revenue out of them and it is so objectionable to the people to pay these tolls that the country would not be any worse off if we abolished the tolls altogether. You need a responsible man

in charge of each wharf to see that it is properly conducted, and it seems reasonable that the country should pay a man for that purpose. I know that there is nothing that country people taking produce to market hate so much as to have to pay a small toll on their produce going over a wharf. I will make inquiries in regard to the wharf at Miguasha Point.
'Mr. MABCT'L:	What arrangement is
being made with regard to the collection of tolls at Baie des Chaleurs wharves Formerly the wharfingers were paid fifty per cent of the tolls collected, or, in round figures, about $50 a year. I understand that a few years ago- an arrangement was made that the boat proprietor paid a round sum to the department and 'received permission to use free of charge all the wharves on the coast. What arrangements are to be made for the present season? We expect to have a boat this year which comes from St. John. The boat we had last year was very unsatisfactory, it was a very small river boat. The Minister of Trade and Commerce explained to me that he could not find anything better. It is a pure waste of money to put a boat p.f that kind on the Baie des Chaleurs; there are no cabins on it, and a passenger who wishes to take the whole trip, must have a cabin. Owing to lack of cabins, this boat goes only half the distance and returns. Last year it started its services on the 5th of August, and the whole 'season it carried only 150 passengers and about 200 tons of freight.


John Douglas Hazen: Even if there were a good boat on that service, is it not a fact that a great many people would travel >by train? There is a train service each way each day, and I think the tendency of the people 

I have been down there sometimes-is to patronize the railway because the trains run both winter and summer. Even a good boat would find difficulty in attracting enough patronage to make it a paying proposition. 1 will look into the matter of an arrangement for using the wharf. I know there !ha,s been [such an arrangement as my hon. friend refers to.


William Stewart Loggie: How many wharves are there under the department in Chatham, and what was the revenue last year?


John Douglas Hazen: I have a list here of the wharves that have paid revenue, but there is no mention of a wharf at Chatham.


William Stewart Loggie: There is one wharf there under the department. There are three public wharves, but two of them are under
the jurisdiction of the Railway Department. The other wharf, which is under my hon. friend's department, is in the rear of the Customs House and post office, and the storm signals and buoys are located on it each winter. I see no reason why there should not be some revenue from that wharf.


John Douglas Hazen: If the wharf was used simply for putting up buoys and chains and that sort of thing, there would be no revenue from it.


William Stewart Loggie: It is used for general purposes.


John Douglas Hazen: I never heard of it before, and I am glad my hon. friend has drawn my attention to the matter. I will have it looked into.


Mr. McKENZIE:: There are quite a number of wharves in the county of Victoria, and some of them at least are paying wharfage. There is a wharf at Baddeck, and another at Ferry Landing or Little Narrows, as it is sometimes called.


John Douglas Hazen: The wharf at Baddock pays something.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Are there any wharves at South Bay, North Bay and White Point?


John Douglas Hazen: Baddeck is the only one that is mentioned here, but if my hon. friend would send me a list I could get him the information.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Most of these wharves are in fishing villages. I understand that some local men tried to collect wharfage and tolls from the fishermen, and it caused a great deal of trouble. I think I heard the minister say this evening that where wharves are used for the accommodation of fishermen no tolls are charged. I would suggest to the minister that instead of appointing a wharfinger to look after these- wharves, it would be better to leave it to some one who is in business near the wharf and has occasion to use it practically every day. Wharfingers have very often no occasion to go to the wharf unless something comes for them by boat, but there is always some one in business near these wharves. I have particularly in mind a place called Washabuck, where there has been a wharf for about twelve yeaTS. A gentleman named McNeil is in business at the head of the wharf and has occasion to use it practically every day. He takes as much pride in it as if it were his own, and certainly keeps it in good

shape. I 'do not know whether anything is collected from this wharf, hut it is certainly a first class one. I am sure that in all the villages along the coast the minister *will find men of this sort who will take much better care of the wharf than -wharfingers, who have no interest in the -wharf except collecting a little toll and receiving any goods that come for themselves. These wharves were built in the county of Victoria for the accommodation of the different villages along the coast, and with no intention of collecting wharfage or tolls of any kind. A fishing wharf serves two purposes as a rule: it acts as a breakwater and shelter for the fishing boats, and serves also the general purposes of a wharf. They were put up to assist the fishermen. If the minister finds that tolls are being collected at any of these wharves, at White Point or any other place in the county of Victoria, I would suggest that he cut it out at once, because it is a great nuisance to the fishermen, and the revenue is of no consequence to the department. There is a good deal of dissatisfaction at Baddeck by reason of the collection of wharfage. There should not be a wharfage charge there at all. Eight across the water from Baddeck there is a wharf at Iona, which I suppose is under the control of my hon. friend's department, and which is used in connection with the Intercolonial. The Kailway Department has laid rails down to the wharf, and cars from the Intercolonial are shunted down, and the freight for Victoria county is carried by the Government railway to this wharf. The goods are put upon a fairly large ferry boat running between Iona and Baddeck. The Government, having taken the freight from the wharf, must land it somewhere, 'and I .submit that the same rule should apply at Baddeck as applies at Iona. Although the railway is not in my hon. friend's department, it is all under the one Government.
If the man at Iona does not pay wharfage when getting goods over the Intercolonial, why should the man. at Baddeck be called upon to pay? When I had more to do with the management of these affairs, there were no toll charges, there. The people got their goods off the train, and carried them away. We built a first-class warehouse there to shelter goods, and .there was a man there willing to look after it because of some little advantages he got in landing his own goods and in the use of the warehouse. The system that was. in use then should be resumed. The amount to be collected under

the present plan is small, but it is annoying. The thing should be abandoned.


Onésiphore Turgeon: In corroboration of what my hon. friend (Mr. McKenzie) has said, I may remind the minister that in the session of 1908 or 1909 the present Mr. Justice Brodeur, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, made the declaration that tolls should not be collected from the fishermen for the use of the wharves along our coasts. Of course, if a fisherman used his boat for business purposes for pant of the season, toll would be collected. That has been the practice in Gloucester county, as -the Minister of Marine knows very well.


John Douglas Hazen: Fishermen are not charged when using these wharves in connection with their work as fishermen.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What does the minister say with regard to Baddeck wharf?


John Douglas Hazen: The law provides that in
th$se cases a wharfinger must be appointed and fees collected, and until the law is changed I should not be justified in saying that tolls shall not be collected at Baddeck any more than in saying that they should not be collected at St. John., at which point they amount to over $33,000 a year. I. notice that Baddeck pays something over $200, and is the third largest wharf in Nova Scotia, <the largest being Digby, which, I think, pays about $1,700, and the second-largest Kingsport, about $600.
I agree that these wharves were built in most cases simply for the benefit of the people who had access to them, but I think Parliament thought it only fair thg,t those who used the wharves should pay something toward keeping them in repair. Of course, in some cases, the amount collected is trifling, so trifling as to be hardly worth the trouble of collection. But if the principle laid down by the hon. gentleman is to be carried into effect, the question of where the line is to be drawn would have to be carefully considered, in order that the country might not be imp.osed upon and its proper revenues left uncollected.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I agree that where a
Government wharf is in competition with other wharves, or in the case of any Government wharf in a large commercial centre, such as St. John, Halifax or Digby. *wharfage should be collected. But when goods come over the Government railway to Baddeck, freight is paid on them to that point. The Government ha? a wharf in connection with the rpad at Baddeck, just as

it has a wharf in connection with the road at Iona. The Government must have a place to deliver goods, and for Baddeok the wharf is the place where they are delivered. It is a part of the system which must be used by the railway in delivering its freight


John Douglas Hazen: But would npt this be a
similar case: A Montreal merchant makes a contract for goods in Liverpool, to be delivered on the wharf at Montreal. Should the people from whom the goods are bought pay the wharfage charges, or would the hon. gentleman say that no wharfage charge should be made by the owners of the wharf, the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: But if the Government railway undertook to carry the goods from Montreal to Baddeck and to deliver them at Baddeck, they, having a wharf of their own there, should not charge wharfage to the owner of the goods. In the case to which the hon. minister refers, if the steamship company whose vessel carries the goods from Liverpool to Montreal have a wharf of their own in connection with their steamship line, then, having charged a freight rate to cover everything, they should not charge wharfage for delivery on their own wharf.
The one charge is supposed to cover everything because when tb,e goods are delivered on the wharf at Iona, there is no wharfage at all, but it is a wharf just as much as it is a wharf at Baddeck. The Railway Department recognize the fact and include the charge for wharfage there because it is necessary to the delivery of goods that they shall pass over the wharf.


John Douglas Hazen: It all depends on the contract they make with the people as to what they shall charge.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am only talking about a matter of -fair dealing as between the Intercolonial railway and a citizen. That is perhaps the only case of the kind along the Intercolonial. I do not know of any other case where they take goods which have to go over the water before they are delivered. Where there is a Government wharf at which goods are delivered I always contended when the late Liberal Government was in power-and I almost succeeded in convincing the minister-they should not charge because it is part of their own system.
To provide for breaking- ice in Thunder Bay and Lake Superior and other points deemed advisable for the good of navigation, $40,000.


John Howard Sinclair: How many icebreakers have you in Thunder Bay?


John Douglas Hazen: We have no icebreakers of our own in Thunder Bay. We have to make a contract to have the work done.


John Howard Sinclair: How much was spent last year?


John Douglas Hazen: Our contract is for $30,000.
It is with the Canadian Towing and Wrecking Company with which Mr. Whelan is connected. I am not quite sure what we spent but $30,000 is the amount we have to pay every year.


John Howard Sinclair: Does the contract go on from year to year?


John Douglas Hazen: The contract is for three years from December, 1914, and expires in December of this year.


John Howard Sinclair: Will it be thrown open to the public?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, we always put it up to competition and give it to the lowest tenderer.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: How could you get tenders for icebreaking when some years you have no ice at all. Some years you have lots of ice and other years you have thin ice.


John Douglas Hazen: Sometimes we have very thin ice. We have to take our chances.
Repairs to maritime road, $1,000.


John Douglas Hazen: That item was passed the other night.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This is a road to a lighthouse?


John Douglas Hazen: It is a maritime road leading to a lighthouse in an out-of-the-way place. There is a long stretch of road with nobody living on it, it carries the Government telephone line and it is for the purpose of keeping it in repair that this' $1,000 is given.


William Stewart Loggie: Might I mention a road in my county that is in a very bad condition. It is the road between the lighthouse and the village of Escuminac, some four or five miles in length.


John Douglas Hazen: Is there anyone living on the road?


William Stewart Loggie: No. During most of the season there is no person at Escuminac Point except the light-keeper. During the summer there are two fishermen and -there are two lobster factories operated there. The road is practically impassable.


John Douglas Hazen: I suppose the lobster fishermen go there by boats?


William Stewart Loggie: They do in some cases, but they would like also to use this road which is practically impassable.


John Douglas Hazen: Could you get over it in an automobile?


William Stewart Loggie: You might, but there
would be danger of getting stuck on the road. Some money was spent on this road by the department five or six years ago.


John Douglas Hazen: That seems to establish a precedent.


William Stewart Loggie: Yes.


John Douglas Hazen: I will have the matter
looked into. If the road is necessary for the lighthouse, and not necessary for other purposes, it is only fair that we should help to maintain it. But, if the road is used by the people who are interested in running the 'lobster canneries and the fishermen I do not say it would be unfair that the department should make some grant towards it but it would be only fair that they should at least contribute towards the expense as well.


William Stewart Loggie: I think that was done before.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If this road was built for the lighthouse it would be the duty of the minister to keep it up.


John Douglas Hazen: I fancy you will find that the road was there before the lighthouse was built.


Charles Marcil: I have a similar case at Pointe Maquereaux. The municipal council of Gascon applied for a grant to put in order the road leading to the lighthouse. The department sent an inspector down, he reported against the application and the department refused to make any grant. The last news I had was that the road was practically impassible. The road leads from the main Gaspe road to the Pointe Mac-quereaux light. A small grant of $200 or $300 would put the road in order.


John Douglas Hazen: I will make a note of it.
Amount required to pay pension of $300 each per annum to retired pilots. $8,700.


Mr. GAUVREALT:: Are these the same pensioners that we had last year?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, with the exception that two have died since last year, Charles Brown and Pierre Pipon. The arrange-

ment under which this amount is paid is familiar to members of the late Administration as it was made during their tenure of office. It became necessary to decrease the number of pilots in the Quebec district and it was agreed to give these men, during their lifetime, $300 a year. Under that agreement it is necessary to vote this amount.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister explain how it is that if two have died there are still the same number as last year?


John Douglas Hazen: There must' be two less.


John Howard Sinclair: I find that there are 29 in the Auditor General's Report for last year and 29 in this list.


John Douglas Hazen: How do you account for that?.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I suppose two others came on.


John Douglas Hazen: But we are asking for $600 less.


John Howard Sinclair: The amounts paid are not always the same because according to the Auditor General's Report some get $300 and some less than $300.


John Douglas Hazen: I understood $300. I gave the explanation that two had died and I understood that that explained the difference. .


John Howard Sinclair: My hon. friend explained last year that when these pilots died we would get rid of this expenditure but I find two names on the list this year that were not on last year.


John Douglas Hazen: I think that some of the names were omitted from the main estimates last year, and were inserted in the supplementary estimates. That would account for the difference.


John Howard Sinclair: My hon. friend can see that it is difficult for us coming from other parts of Maritime Canada to defend pensions given to pilots on the St. Lawrence when they are not given to pilots in other places who are just as deserving. I am not complaining about the payment of pensions to pilots on the St. Lawrence if they are entitled to them, hut I have in my mind men on the coast of Nova Scotia, in my county, at places like Canso, Isaac's Harbour and the St. Mary river, who have for many years done the pilotage work of that stormy coast, who have grown old in the service, who have always been faithful, and, so far as I can see, are as well entitled

to some retiring allowance as those on the St. Lawrence river. If there is an agree' ment by which we are liable to pay these pensions to these pilots, of course we must carry it out.


John Douglas Hazen: That is the unfortunate part of it.


John Howard Sinclair: But if my hon. friend is going to add to the number year by year I must come in with certain pilots in whom 1 am interested, and ask to have them put on the list too. [DOT]


John Douglas Hazen: I have some of my own. I think the criticism of my hon. friend is perfectly fair. It seems strange and incongruous, but this is not my infant at all; I have inherited this item as any future Minister of Marine and Fisheries will have to do, and I have no doubt that when the arrangement was made it commended itself to those in charge of the Marine Department as a fair and proper arrangement. They were familiar with the facts; an agreement' was made, and there is nothing for us to do but to act in good faith. We cannot repudiate an agreement made honestly with the pilots by the Government.


John Howard Sinclair: What worries me is the two men who rose uip and took the places of the two dead men.


John Douglas Hazen: 
Edward Mortimer Macdonald: That covers the item I spoke of earlier in regard to telephones?


John Douglas Hazen: No, I do not think it does.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: In this case it does, because the lighthouse and the life-saving station are alongside of each other. If there ever was a case where a lighthouse required to be connected by telephone it is this case. There are two lighthouses on this island. A cable passes close to the island, and the question is if it could not be utilized to give telephone communication to those two islands. In winter the lane of communication between the mainland and Prince Edward Island passes by these islands, the steamers go past there all the time. An ice shove or anything of that kind might occur and a steamer might be ashore there for hours and be destroyed by the ice without there being any means of
communicating with the mainlaifd and obtaining assistance.


John Douglas Hazen: There have been reports upon this, but all the papers are in the other department whose Estimates will be taken up later on. There seems to be little necessity for this item in my Estimates. For years a small amount has been voted each year to enable the more important light stations to be brought into telephone communication with the nearest settlement where this appears to be desirable in the public interest. The telephone enables meteorological and other observations to be * sent in promptly, and is of great use in case of shipwreck. The expenditure under this head in 1915-16 was $1.50, and last year it was nothing, so I do not see that there can be any very pressing need for these telephone lines. If I do not find any need for it this year, I will not bring the item in again. I think it would take much more than $500 to carry out the suggestion of my hon. friend in reference to Pictou island.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: Would the minister say whether it is proposed to spend any money for the protection of the harbour lights in Pictou?


John Douglas Hazen: The matter has not been brought to my attention.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I understand that some survey or observation was made last autumn.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not hesitate to say that if any expenditure is necessary in order to maintain the light, it will be made; but no report has been made to me on the subject.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: I think it was suggested that a large expenditure should be made which was not necessary.


John Douglas Hazen: No expenditure, so far as I know, has been recommended by the Lighthouse Board.


Alexander William Chisholm: I wish to bring up the case of Margaree island,, which is distant three miles from the shore. There is a lighthouse on it and a fishing station, and I think that it would come within the purview of this policy. I should like to see a telephone station there. There is a line of telephone along the coast of Inverness, and this is a very important station. The lighthouse keeper has great difficulty in landing during several months. I submit to the minister that the establishment of a telephone station there would be a great convenience to the fishermen.


William Stewart Loggie: The harbour of Kouchibouguac in my province is a port of call during the whole season for fishing and trading vessels, but there is no communication by telephone or telegraph. If the present system could be extended some eight or ten miles along the shore, it would be a great convenience to that section of the country.


John Douglas Hazen: Whom does the line belong to?


William Stewart Loggie: It is operated by the Government.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is it the intention of
the department to take over the pilot system in the Maritime Provinces?


John Douglas Hazen: The system under which
the pilotage service on the St. Lawrence has been taken over and placed under the authority of the minister .has worked admirably, and there is a good deal to be said in favour of applying the same system at Halifax, St. John, Sydney, on the Pacific coast, and at other places where there are pilot commissions. I should like to have the matter discussed some time and obtain the views of gentlemen who are interested in it. Of course, opposition to the plan will come from certain quarters. I am disposed to think, however, without expressing a matured opinion, that a change along the lines of the system prevailing on the St. Lawrence would be a benefit to the shipping interests. I have had the matter in mind for several years, but 'since the outbreak of war it has been hard to get time to deal with questions of that kind. I hope some time to formulate a plan and subinit it to Parliament.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In the Auditor General's Report, the minister will find mention of two wharves, one at Grand Narrows, Victoria county, and the other at Grand Narrows, Cape Breton county. Victoria county is on the west side of Grand Narrows and Cape Breton is on the east side. These two wharves are utilized in receiving and discharging freight from the Intercolonial railway. Nothing is charged on either of them and, under the old order of things, the same applied at Baddeck wharf. Since the Conservatives came in, however, they have charged over $100 at that wharf. I think it should be placed in the same category with the Grand Narrows wharf, at which no wharfage is collected.

New vessel to replace the Maisonneuve*


John Douglas Hazen: This is a vessel of composite construction, being built at the Government yards at Sorel to take the place of a boat of the same name which has been condemned by the inspectors as unserviceable. The cost will be $30,000. We spent last year $17,861, and this vote is for the purpose of completing the vessel, which, we think, will be in commission this month.


John Howard Sinclair: Is she to be used on
the St. Lawrence?


John Douglas Hazen: The Maisonneuve will be
used on the Ottawa river for the lighthouse service, doing the work formerly carried on by the old boat.
Amount required for rebuilding of Scout, $12,000.


John Douglas Hazen: The Scout was built at
Cardinal, Ontario, seventeen years ago. It is a wooden vessel and was employed in the lighthouse and buoy service in the upper St. Lawrence river. Quite extensive repairs were found to be necessary to the hull. We thought at first that we should have to have a new boat, but careful inspection demonstrated the fact that the boat could be repaired and made serviceable for a good many years yet. The repairs were made at Kingston.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has the hon. gentleman any further details concerning the settlement of the strike at the Sorel shipyard?


John Douglas Hazen: The strike is settled. The men are all at woik to-day, and peace and harmony prevail. -


Rodolphe Lemieux: What were the conditions of the settlement?


John Douglas Hazen: We increased the pay in some cases where we thought increases were deserved, and some of the men who, we thought, acted very improperly, were asked to stand aside. From what I can judge by the representations made to me, the great bulk of the men in the yard Eeel that there was no justification for the extreme measures to which the men resorted, because the department was considering the whole question and was prepared to deal fairly and properly with it. We had two officials there and they said: We are prepared to look into the matter and to make a report, and in consequence of the changed condition of affairs, in regard to the wages to be paid, we are authorized by the minister to say that the department will pay them. This was not satisfactory

to all the men and some of them shut down the machinery. When that occurred, I gave orders to close the works because I did not think we should be taken by the throat in that manner, but I learned the next day from many of the men that they deeply regretted what had taken place and that they were willing to return again and were quite sure that the department would give them every consideration.


John Howard Sinclair: Were any increases
given?


John Douglas Hazen: Increases were given where they were warranted.


John Howard Sinclair: Did you give the men all that they asked for?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has any decision been arrived at by the department in regard to the land where the department is operating there?


John Douglas Hazen: You mean the McCarthy estate?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes. Has there been any settlement made with the estate? Some years ago a lease was entered into with the McCarthy estate; that lease has expired, and I believe the department is still a tenant although there is no renewal of lease with the estate. I understand that the Government intend to purchase the land. If a settlement has been arrived at, what amount has been fixed, and what terms generally have' been made?


John Douglas Hazen: We were not able to come to an agreement with the McCarthy estate. We felt that in view of the lease we had entered into, the amount they wished for the property was entirely in excess of its value; we could not agree to pay them the amount they wanted and they could not agree to take the amount we were willing to pay them, and the result was that we have undertaken to expropriate the property through the Exchequer Court.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is the margin of difference between the offer of the -Government and the amount required by the estate?


John Douglas Hazen: My recollection is that the margin is very large.	[DOT]


Rodolphe Lemieux: Are the expropriation
proceedings going on?


John Douglas Hazen: The matter is in the hands of the Justice Department, and I presume proceedings will be taken in due course.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has the case been
entered?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know. I have
not had the matter before me for some time, but my recollection is that we instructed the Department of Justice to take proceedings in the matter of expropriation; I think the papers are filed which would vest us with the control of the property, and I think the Department of Justice have taken proceedings to have the Exchequer Court place a value on it.
Mr. LEMfEUX: I hold no brief for the estate except that I happen to know casually the little difference of opinion there is between the department and the estate. One of the McCarthy's was a class-mate of mine, and that is how I happen to know of the matter. I believe the Government has taken the proper course in referring the matter to the Exchequer Court because the department must come to terms some way or another on account of the fact that you occupy the grounds which belong to the estate and which are very valuable, in fact, the department could not do otherwise than to have the shipyards there. The last time I had occasion to look into this matter, the department refused to agree to the price, but were still occupying the property, and the estate drew rent from the department.


John Douglas Hazen: Under the lease they were entitled to $1,200 a year.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes, but when the lease expired they refused to renew it, and for some time there was correspondence between the estate and the department.


John Douglas Hazen: The lease was1 a very peculiar one. One contention was that tite lease was practically perpetual; that it never expired, and that as long as we chose to hold the property and pay $1,200 a year, we had the right to do so, and we kept tendering that $1,200 a year. After, however, having taken the advice of the Department of Justice, and having considered the matter, we decided it was better for all concerned to expropriate and thus get the absolute right to the property.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What about the marine railway at Sorel?


John Douglas Hazen: I have not heard of it for many years.	^


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: In connection with
the construction pf the steamer Maison-neuve, where does the department get the

engines and boilers for steamers that are constructed in Canada?


John Douglas Hazen: The boilers that we use at Sorel we make ourselves. I do not know where the engines for the Maisenneuve came fr.om, but my impression is that they were built by a private firm after tenders had been called for. There are a number of private firms at Sorel constructing engines.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: In regard to vessels generally that aTe built in the department or for the department, is it possible to have satisfactory engines constructed in Canada?


John Douglas Hazen: ^es, we have found that to be the case.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The theory used tp be that we could not get satisfactory engines or boilers except in England?


John Douglas Hazen: The information from my officials, who know more about the matter than I do, is that the engines we have had built in Canada for our boats have been satisfactory.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: For quite a while,
the boilers for the boats that were built in Canada were so constructed that it was impossible to use Canadian coal. The boilers used in connection with these steamers have no difficulty in that regard? 1


John Douglas Hazen: We use Nova. Scotia coal altogether in connection with the St. Lawrence ship-channel work and with all our steamers.
Scientific institutions - Meteorological service, etc., $201,793.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the increase
due to?


John Douglas Hazen: That is due to increases in salaries. The salaries are small, and we are giving the ordinary statutory increases of $50 or $100.


John Howard Sinclair: Where are these stations?


John Douglas Hazen: The head meteorological station is at Toronto, and that is where most of the expense is. The head man is Sir Frederick Stupart, and he has a staff of officials at Toronto. There are other stations at Victoria, St. John, Quebec, Moosejaw, Edmonton, Halifax, Fredericton, Montreal, Winnipeg Woodstock and Sherbrooke. There are also telegraph stations at Vancouver, Kingston, Chatham, Port Arthur, Charlottetown, Sydney, Yarmouth, Atlin, Swift Current Prince Rupert, Dawson and other places all over Canada.


John Howard Sinclair: Does this item covet the expense of the telegraph service?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it necessary to have this telegraph service?


John Douglas Hazen: It is necessary to collect the information in order that the probabilities may be sent out.	[DOT]


John Howard Sinclair: You do not own the telegraph lines, but simply pay for this service?


John Douglas Hazen: We pay for the service. The station at Bermuda costs $375. The station at Triangle Island, at the entrance to Prince Rupert, $250; Regina, $240. There are also stations at White River, Father Point, Sable Island, and places like that. The total cost of the telegraph stations is $17,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Are reports wired from Sir Frederick Stupart's office all over Canada?


John Douglas Hazen: Sir Frederick Stupart's
office collects all the information, and then sends out reports as to the weather probabilities in the lake region, the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and so on.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What are the probabilities for the next political storm?


John Douglas Hazen: We have got to get the different elements together first, before I can tell you that.


Alexander William Chisholm: Do storm drums come under this vote?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Alexander William Chisholm: I have a little grievance which I want to bring to the minister's attention. Who is the man in charge of the storm drum at Grand Etang?


John Douglas Hazen: His name is not here, but he gets $60 a year.


Alexander William Chisholm: Are these yearly appointments?


John Douglas Hazen: Not necessarily so; they are made from time to time.


Alexander William Chisholm: These are very important stations to us, as they fournish a great deal of information that is of vast benefit to the fishermen particularly. A man by the name of Cormier was placed in charge of the storm drum at Grand Etang some seven or eight years ago. He gave a first class service in every respect. He was in poor circumstances and in poor health,

and my information is that he has been dismissed and another man appointed in his place. It is very important that I should know who his successor is, because I have a word or two to say in regard to this service, which has saved perhaps more lives than any other.


John Douglas Hazen: I should be very glad to give my hon. friend the information, but I have not got it here.


Alexander William Chisholm: I think possibly I have the information myself. I have a very strong impression that this man was dismissed on account of municipal politics. It is a disastrous condition of affairs if the service of this country is to be prostituted at the instance of political demagogues scattered all over the country. The position that this man occupied was of very great importance to our fishermen, and he gave a first class service. We may have a municipal election again next fall and this man's successor, if he does not vote the right way, may be dismissed and some one else be appointed in his place. In my judgment the dismissal of this man is about as small a piece of business as I have heard of since I came to this House. I do not think the minister knows anything at all about it because he has too great a sense of fairness to allow anything like that to take place. I have no doutot that some under-strappers who control some portions of his department are responsible for this dismissal. This may be a small thing-the minister says the salary is only $60, tout I can tell him that the service is worth a great deal more than that to the fishermen who are dependent upon the notices sent out from this station. It is a very Tough coast down there, and these storm drums were put up possibly at my instance, and have given excellent service, tout if the whole machinery is going to be put in the hands of local politicians I am sorry the storm drums were eveT put up. Would the minister investigate this case?


John Douglas Hazen: I will look into it.


Alexander William Chisholm: If the minister finds that this man gave perfect satisfaction, will he restore him? It is not often I make a request, but I feel that a great injustice has been done in this case.


John Douglas Hazen: The hon. gentleman must
not press me too hard.


Alexander William Chisholm: I have great
regard for the minister's word, and if he
says he will replace this man, I shall be content.


John Douglas Hazen: I will look into the matter.
Marine hospitals, including grants to Institutes assisting sailors, $75,000.


John Douglas Hazen: The amount we spent last year up to the 31st of March was $57,540. There are some items for April that will have to be added to that. The amounts that have been spent for the last six years since 1910-1911 are resepectivtely $54,000, $52,000, $54,000, $65,000, $64,000 and $57,000. Owing to the increasing cost of living the hospitals have found it necessary to increase the per diem rate for hospital treatment at certain points. Arrangements are made in ports where there is a well-established public hospital for the sailors to receive treatment at a per diem rate. The rate used to -be $1 a day, but the hospitals have had to increase that to $1.50. That includes nursing, attendance and everything else required. The hospitals represent that there has been a great increase not only 'in the price of food but in drugs and hospital supplies. It is expected that this amount will cover all expenditures during the coming year.


John Howard Sinclair: How is this vote administered at Canso?


John Douglas Hazen: The resident doctor there is Dr. A. McGarry.


John Howard Sinclair: How are patients provided for?


John Douglas Hazen: There is no hospital there, and patients are sent to a private house, under an arrangement made.


George William Kyte: What about the marine hospital at Point Tupper, closed some years ago?


John Douglas Hazen: I think the patients there in need of treatment are sent to the hospital at Sydney.


George William Kyte: Who is the marine doctor at the strait of Canso? Dr. McLeod,, of Hawkesbury was the physician there, but he was dismissed by this Government, and Dr. McKenzie, of Port Mulgrave, was appointed.


John Douglas Hazen: The incumbent of the hospital having died, Dr. McKenzie has been appointed temporarily in his place.


John Howard Sinclair: Has the minister had a request from Canso in regard to an increase of the expenses there?


John Douglas Hazen: We have had correspondence about the matter, and have agreed to pay an increased amount.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it on account of the increased cost of drugs?


John Douglas Hazen: No, but we have to pay more to the house to which sailors are sent, just as we have to pay increased rates to the different hospitals.


John Howard Sinclair: I understand that the request from the medical officer was for an increase on account of the greater cost of drugs, and I heard a fear expressed that the service might be discontinued unless the minister paid attention to that request.


John Douglas Hazen: Dr. McGarry is paid $375 a year, and out of this supplies his own medicines.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the minister going to do about it?


John Douglas Hazen: If we increase the amount paid to one doctor on account of the increased cost of drugs, we could hardly refuse to make that increase general, because it is not in Canso alone that drugs are more costly. Before I increase their pay all over the country, I should have to give the matter very careful consideration.


John Howard Sinclair: At Canso there is no
doctor available except Dr. McGarry. There is a doctor at Hazel Hill, but he is employed by the cable company and is not at liberty to attend to sailors. . If Dr. McGarry withdrew from the service, it would be difficult to replace him. I think it is true that he is not getting enough, particularly since the cost of drugs has become so great. There are usually quite a number of calls upon him. I would like the minister to look into this matter and see if the physician's request is not a reasonable one.


John Douglas Hazen: There may be exceptional circumstances at Canso, as the hon. member seems to think. I will look into it.


George William Kyte: Who is the port physician
at St. Peter's?


John Douglas Hazen: Dr. J. A. McDonald.


George William Kyte: What is his salary?


John Douglas Hazen: It is $250.


George William Kyte: Is that the salary at which
he was appointed?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know.


John Howard Sinclair: Do these doctors report the number of patients they attend?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, they report quarterly.


John Howard Sinclair: By looking at that report the minister could see what service is rendemd by the port physician at Canso?


Alexander William Chisholm: Who is the port physician at Cheticamp?


John Douglas Hazen: It is Dr. P. J. L. Fiset.


Alexander William Chisholm: Is he permanently appointed, and is he paid a fixed amount?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, $300.


Alexander William Chisholm: I see by the
Auditor General's Report that Dr. Fiset received $125.75 and Dr. Lablanc $115.


John Douglas Hazen: The change was made since the report from which the hon. gentleman is quoting was made. At one time there were two doctors there acting as port physicians, and each making a charge for the work actually performed by him, with the result that we paid a pretty large sum for the service. Now we have an arrangement with Dr. Fiset by which the whole serivce is performed for $300.


George William Kyte: Where the port physician
is not available and a.vessel comes in with a sick mariner aboard, and another doctor has to be called in, how are the fees provided for?


John Douglas Hazen: There is a fairly well established rule. Unless the port physician is able to give satisfactory reasons why he was not available, and why he did not arrange with somebody else to conduct his business for him while he was away, we pay the other doctor and deduct the amount from the salary of the port physician.


George William Kyte: It appears to me that the fact that thp regular port physician is not on the ground to render medical service ought to be a sufficient reason for the department deducting the amount of the service from his salary. I do not think that any question ought to arise as to the reasons why the services of the port physician are not available. There are cases where hardships are occasioned when mariners pay sick mariners' dues. If a mariner is sick and the port physician is absent he will be obliged to call in another physician. Is it the invariable practice of the department to pay for the services of the other physician and deduct from the salary of the regular physician?

Mr. HAZEN i I believe that is practically the course pursued in almost every case. There may be some exceptional reason why it would not be just tor the department to do that but in the great majority of cases that is done. As a rule, there is generally an arrangement among the doctors to take care of each other's cases during the absence of any one of them.


George William Kyte: A short time ago Capt. Poirier came into the port of Arichat very ill and he sent for the port physician, Dr. P. A. LeBlanc. For some reason or other, the port physician did not answer to the call. Captain Poirier was obliged to secure the services of another doctor, the doctor rendered his bill to the captain and the captain naturally looks to the department to indemnify him. I would like to know if that is one of the cases in which the minister would think that the port physician ought to be charged with the fees of the other practitioner.


John Douglas Hazen: I have not had an opportunity of looking into the facts. They ought to be submitted to us and then we could come to a decision about them.


Alexander William Chisholm: Do I understand that Dr. McLeod has been permanently appointed as port physician at Hawkesbury?


John Douglas Hazen: No, he is acting temporarily.	,


Alexander William Chisholm: He takes the cases as they come along?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes; under an arrangement with him and we pay him.


John Howard Sinclair: Does he look after the cases at Mulgrave as well as at Hawkesbury?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: How much was received for sick mariners' dues last year?


John Douglas Hazen: 


John Howard Sinclair: That covers the whole expenditure of this item and a little more?


John Douglas Hazen: It more than covers it.


John Howard Sinclair: So that we are not losing anything on this service?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


John Howard Sinclair: I understand that there is a considerable amount to the credit of the fund for past years?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: I think that is a reason why the minister should be a little more liberal with the port physicians. The fact that they are pressed down to the lowest amount is not a good thing for the service. The natural result is that the doctor who only gets $200 or $300 a year for this service does not take much interest in it and the sailor suffers. If the minister would look into the particular case of each port and ascertain the work that is done, and whether it is necessary to give a living wage to the doctor who is doing it, it would be better for the service, and it would give a fair chance to the men who are being attended. Sailors are apt to be poorly looked after if the department is not paying the parties who are looking after them fairly, or as they would be paid by outside people for the same service.


John Douglas Hazen: That is one reason why we endeavour, wherever we can, to get the sailors to go to the hospitals.


John Howard Sinclair: I am speaking now about places where there are no hospitals. T have drawn the attention of the minister to a ease of hardship that occurred at the port of Canso in years gone by, partly because there was no proper place at which to attend sick sailors when they came in. They could not get proper attention because they had to go to some boarding house. If they come in sick with a contagious disease the appliances are very poor, and it could hardly be expected that a doctor would do his best work for the fee that he is getting at a port like Canso, where so many seamen and fishermen from the Banks come in, to say nothing of the medical requirements of the locality. There is a bright young doctor at Mulgrave by the name of Dr. Breen, a very capable young man, and I thought that at the time when Dr. McKenzie's death took place he would be his successor, as he took up Dr. McKenzie's work in Mulgrave and carried it on. He would have been the natural person to appoint for this service, and if my hon. friend is looking for a man to take the place permanently he could not do better than appoint Dr. Breen, who is at Mulgrave, who is well capable of doing the work arid who is trusted by everybody.


Alexander William Chisholm: This is an occasion when I have much pleasure on congratulating the minister on making the selection of Dr. McLeod, because he is situated at the port of Hawkesbury, most of

the shipping is done there and I have no dou'bt that the minister will see his way clear to make the appointment permanent and leave Dr. McLeod where he is. They will have to come over from Mulgrave to Hawke^bury, because it is the main shipping point.


Mr. COPP:: Who is the medical officer at Cape Tormentine?


John Douglas Hazen: Dr. Allen.


Arthur Bliss Copp: He left there some time ago and he has since died.	.


John Douglas Hazen: I am afraid my list is not up to date.
Steamboat inspection, $79,749.


John Douglas Hazen: We will let the item stand,
with the understanding that it is open to hon. members to discuss any questions on it, as there are a number not present to-night who are interested in these Estimates. I might say to my hon. friend from Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) that in accordance with his suggestion of last session I propose, on taking up the Fisheries Estimates, to make a general statement on the progress of the fisheries. I had perhaps better not start that to-night.
Progress reported.
On the motion of Hon. Mr. Hazen the House adjourned at 11 o'clock p.m.
Monday, June 4, 1917.