1917-09-03

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Vol. I-Pages . .	1-1124 Vol. IV-Pages . . 3187-4242
II "	.	.	1125-2138	V "	.	. 4243-5270HI "	.	. 2139-3186	VI "	.	.	5271-6094


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J. de LABROQUERIE TACHfi

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House of Commons Uchates
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Monday, September 3, 1917.

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[Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks 1

*Mr. LANCTOT:: 1.	How many men, officers and employees of the Imperial Munitions Board are of military age?
2.	What are their names and respective salaries?
3.	Who, if any, have military badges, and on what grounds in each case have they been granted?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: Tihe information asked for in this question is not available. The Imperial Munitions Board is under the control and direction of the Government of the United Kingdom, and it is not under the control or direction of the Government of Canada, which exercises no direction or control whatever with respect to the employment of persons who are in the service of that Board.


THE MOTOR BOAT SCOUT.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN (Halifax):: 1.	Was a steamer or motor boat, called the Scout, purchased by the Government of Canada from any person or persons at Halifax, N.S.?
2.	If so, from whom, when was she purchased, and what was the price paid therefor?


Mr. MEIGHEN:: 1.	No.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: The name of the .motor boat mentioned in this question, the Scout, is an error and I wrote the minister a few days ago giving the correct name, of the boat. I wish to know if the answer is to the question as amended?


Mr. MEIGHEN:: I did not know about the amendment of the question. The answer is to the question as it stands.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I promised to give the correct name privately.


Arthur Meighen: If the hon. member
gives me the correct name I shall answer.


THE MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
Mr. KYTE:: Is it the intention of the Government to amend the Military Service Act, 1917, by Order in Council or any other way, to provide for the exemption from the calling out on active service provided for by section 4 of said Act of those engaged in agriculture or of those engaged in industrial or other work which provides material for the war?


Robert Laird Borden: It is believed that the provisions of the Military Service Act of 1917 make adequate arrangements for the exemption of all persons necessarily required for agriculture, or other essential industries.
OFFICERS OF THE 66th FUSILIERS.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: 1.	How many Lieutenant-Colonels are attached to the 66th Princess Louise Fusiliers at Halifax?
2.	On what dates were each of said Colonels appointed?
3.	What is the rate of pay and allowance to
each?	*
4.	Are all of said Colonels giving their entire time to the performance of their duties?


Sir EDWARD KEMP:: 1 and 2. The usual number of officers are employed with the 66th Princess Louise Fusiliers at Halifax which is on active service, namely:
Acting Commanding Officer Lt.-Col. A. King, appointed August 9, 1915, in command of the 66th Regiment, vice Lt.-Col. H. L. Chipman, seconded, which Regiment, since the beginning of the war, has been on active service in connection with Halifax defences.
Temporary Lt.-Col. R. B. Simmonds, Senior Major, 2nd in Command, appointed August 11, 1914. (Lt.-Col. Simmonds draws Major's pay.)



The Medical Officer of this Regiment is Hon. Lt.-Col. M. A. Currie, appointed December 14, 1904.
The Chaplain of this Regiment is Hon. Lt.-Col. the Rev. W. J. Armitage, appointed April 16, 1913, whose services, owing to the Regiment's isolation, are required.
The Commanding Officer of this Battalion is Lt.-Col. H. L. Chipman, appointed 3rd May, 1910. This officer, however, is not at present in active command of the 66th Princess Louise Fusiliers, as he was seconded to command the Composite Battalion stationed at Wellington Barracks, Halifax, on the 9th August, 1915.
3 and 4. The pay of Lt.-Col. A. King and Lt.-Col. H. L. Chipman, when on active service, is $5 per diem, with subsistence allowance of $1.50 per diem, and field allowance of $1.25 per diem, and that of temporary Lt.-Col. R. B. Simmonds (who draws Major's pay) is $4 per diem, with field allowance of $1 per diem and subsistence allowance of $1.50 per diem. These three officers give their whole time to their military duties.
The pay of Hon. Lt.-Col. M. A. Currie, Medical Officer, when on active service, is $4 per diem, with $1 per diem field allowance and $1.50 per diem subsistence allowance. This officer gives six hours a day to military duty.	-
The pay of Hon. Lt.-Col. the Rev. W. J. Armitage, when on active service, is $5 per diem, with no allowances. This officer also performs certain duties as rector of St. Paul's Church, Halifax.


ENGLISH AND FRENCH-SPEAKING MAIL CLERKS.
Mr. EDWARDS:: 1.	Is it correct, as reported at a convention of mail clerks, that when from twenty-five to thirty of these English-speaking clerks in Ontario enlisted, their places in the province of Ontario to as far west as Sarnia were filled by able-bodied French Canadians?
2.	Could returned soldiers not have been obtained to fill the vacancies caused by the enlistment of those English-speaking clerks?


Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	No. Only one French Canadian employed in Ontario to replace mail clerks who enlisted, and he had been discharged as medically unfit.
2.	Returned soldiers were obtained in every case where it was possible to get them.


LIEUTENANT JOHN D. McNEILL.
Mr. CARROLL:: 1.	Has Lieutenant John D. McNeill, of the 25th Battalion, C.E.F., formerly of Whitney Pier, Sydney, been promoted to the rank of captain?
2.	If so, when?
TSir Edward Kemp.]


Albert Edward Kemp: *
1.	Appointed Acting Captain 25th September, 1916; authority London Gazette.
2.	Particulars of date and number of Gazette not yet received.


MR. ISIDORE LACASSE.
*Mr. DELISLE:: 1.	Was Mr. Isidore Lacasse, of St. Henedine, employed in the Department of Public Works at the City of Quebec?
2.	If so, did he resign?


Mr. REID:: The answer to each of these questions is, No.
167th BATTALION.


Mr. DELISLE:: 1.	Has Mr. Payne been commissioned to make an inquiry in the matter of the officers of the 167th Battalion?
2.	If so, how long is it since he was so commissioned to make this inquiry?
3.	What is his salary, and what is his profession?


Albert Edward Kemp: 1 and 2. No. Mr. Payne was employed to assist the Deputy Inspector General in his inquiry.
3.	Mr. Payne is a hand-writing expert, and, on the advice ef the Department of Justice, his services were loaned by the Post Office Department on the 29th of June, last. This department h'as no official knowledge as to his salary. He is a civil servant employed in the Post Office Department.


Mr. DELISLE:: 1.	Have Lieutenant-Colonel J. T. Langton and Major Deaken been commissioned this year to make an inquiry at Quebec in the matter of the 167th Battalion?
2.	If so, has the said inquiry taken place, and have the officers of the said battafion been heard?
3.	At whose request had the said inquiry
been granted?	.
4.	What has been the resuit of this inquiry?


Albert Edward Kemp: 1, 2, 3 and 4. An investigation into the affairs of the 167th Battalion was applied for by the Officer Commanding, and also by the Pay Department Branch of the Inspector General. As the investigation concerned matters of pay, canteen and regimental funds, it was not necessary to go to the expense of holding a court of inquiry, as there are officers specially appointed at militia headquarters for this purpose, and an investigation was made by Colonel Langton, deputy inspector general, at the beginning of this year.
This investigation disclosed grave irregularities. The matter was, accordingly, re-

ferred to the Department of Justice, in order that it might take the necessary action.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.

Mr. DELISLE:: 1.	How many Government employees from the county of Dorchester have heen given employment since 1916, to date?
2. What are their names, the nature of their employment, and their respective salaries?
3.	Has the Government raised the salaries of any of its employees from the county of Dorchester since the month of December, 1916?
4.	If so, what are the names and the amount of their respective increases?


Mr. DELISLE:: 1. How many post offices have been opened in the County of Dorchester since December, 1916, and what are the names and salaries of the Postmasters?
2 Has the Government given new contracts for the carrying of mails in the county of Dorchester since the month of December, 1916?
3.	If so, to whom, and for what amount?


Mr. HUGHES (Kings):: 1.	What are the names and addresses of the medical men now employed or who have been employed by the Government or the Militia 1 )epa rtment in Prince Edward Island since August, 1914, to August, 1917, in connection with recruiting or any other military work?
2.	What pay or allowance is received by each of these Imedical, men, per day, 'per month or per year, and what is paid to them for each recruit examined?
3.	What is the total amount received by each of these medical men since the beginning of the war to the 1st of August, 1917, both in salary and for examination of recruits?



RELEASE OF THOMAS KELLY.

Mr. LEMIEUX:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, petitions and other documents addressed to the Minister of Justice concerning the release from penitentiary of Thomas Kelly,, contractor of Winnipeg, sentenced by Judge Prendergast to two and. a half years in the penitentiary for obtaining money, approximating $1,000,000, in connection with the construction of the Manitoba Parliament Buildings.


Mr. SPEAKER:: The mover of this motion proposes an amendment, which I should like to submit to the Minister of Justice. It is proposed to add after the, word "justice" in the second line, the following:
Which, in the judgment of the minister, in conformity with the usual practice in such cases may properly be brought down.


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Amendment agreed to.
Robert Laird Borden: I move that all the words after the word "penitentiary" in
334*
the fourth line of the motion be struck out. They add nothing to the information asked for.


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Amendment agreed to.
Motion as amended agreed to.

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Mr. Kyte-For a return showing the names and addresses of recruiting officers employed in the province of Nova Scotia since August 4, 1914, with the respective amounts of pay per day. And showing the total amount received by each of said officers on account of such pay and the respective amounts received by each for expenses and outlay.
Mr. A. K. Maclean-For a return showing the names of all the officers of the R.C.N., or R.N., employed at H.M.C. dockyard and on H.M.C.R Niobe, and in the Naval Service at Halifax. Also a list of the names of captains and officers employed in patrol service, showing the salaries and nature of employment, respectively.
Mr, Macdonald-For a copy of all letters, papers, telegrams and all other documents relative to the application of the Souris Packing Company of Charlottetown, P.E.I., for storage facilities for a quantity of hams and bacon in order to save it from destruction?
Mr. Fortier-For a detailed statement of the amount paid Colonel Rev. Dr. A. E. Burke since his appointment as a chaplain, including items for travelling and hotel expenses.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. WILLIAM PUGSLEY (St. John City):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege. On August 31 I made some remarks in the House in regard to the distress caused by the high cost of living. I have noticed1 in several newspapers the statement that I said that a great many people had been thrown out of employment. I do not know how the statement came to be made, beoause I made no reference whatever to people being thrown out of employment, nor did I intend to make any such suggestion. My remarks were directed to the hardship caused by the high cost of living.



SALES OF FLOUR BETWEEN CANADA AND UNITED STATES.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Edmonton):: I desire to direct the attention of the Government to a report appearing in The Modern Miller, of St. Louis, U.S.A. The report says:
Canada officially, by legislation, removed the duty on both wheat and flour some months ago, which automatically removed the United States duties against Canadian wheat and flour under

our last Tariff Act. Then the Canadian food controller prohibited wheat exports and this left flour officially free to enter the United States from Canada. Canadian millers were not slow to act and a large amount of flour was shipped from Canadian mills to eastern markets. This resulted in the United States Millers' Committee suggesting to W. J. Hanna, Canadian food controller, that they were prepared to recommend to United States millers an agreement to be effected with Canadian millers prohibiting sales of flour between the two countries during the period of the war. In response Mr. Hanna advised1 he is entirely in sympathy and it is to be assumed that satisfactory arrangements will be made.
I desire to ask the Government whether such arrangements have been made.


Robert Laird Borden: No such arrangements have been made. I was not aware that any such proposal had been made to the food controller as that which the hon. gentleman has mentioned. The statement set forth in this news item comes to me for the first time to-day.



REMOVAL OF DUTY UPON POTATOES PROPOSED.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. F. B. CARVELL (Carleton):: The Government by Order in Council have given wheat and wheat products free entry into the United States, but they have not carried out that principle with regard to potatoes, which, under the United States tariff, are in the same category as wheat and wheat products. There is an enormous crop of potatoes in central Canada, where our principal market is, and I would ask the Government to take into consideration, as a war measure, the advisability of placing potatoes on the free list in order that we may have the advantage of selling our potatoes in the United States markets.


Robert Laird Borden: We will give our best consideration to what the hon. gentleman has suggested. If there should be any announcement, it will be made in due course.



ATLANTIC PATROL SERVICE.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I desire to ask the Minister of Naval Service (Hon. J. D. Hazen) whether the patrol service, at Halifax and Sydney, Nova Scotia, is a Canadian or an Imperial establishment? If it is a Canadian "establishment, to what extent is it to be developed and enlarged?


Hon. J. D. HAZEN (Minister of Naval Service):: It may be correctly said that the service is partly Canadian and party Im-
perial. There is a section of the patrol service which is under the control of Imperial officers; another is under the control of the Canadian Naval Department. In respect of certain parts of the service, it might be said that there is mixed control.



BACON AND LARD PURCHASES IN CANADA.

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On the Orders of the Day:
Frank Oliver: On Saturday I directed the attention of the Government to a report in regard to the cessation of the purchase of bacon by the British Government. In the absence of the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) said that possibly the Minister of Trade and Commerce would be able to give an answer at a later date.


Robert Laird Borden: We are in communication with the British Government, through the Acting High Commissioner, on this question. Pending the receipt of a reply, there is no announcement to be made.



PRIVILEGE-HON. MR. HAZEN.

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On the Orders of the Day:
John Douglas Hazen: 

SUPPLY BILL-THIRD READING.

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On motion of Sir Thomas White (Minister of Finance), Bill No. 128, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service foT the financial year ending the 31st March, 1918, was read the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third: time, and passed.

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Hon. W. J. ROCHE (Minister of Interior) moved concurrence in certain amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 100, respecting game in the Northwest Territories of Canada.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: This Bill is very technical. I suppose the amendments have been made for a purpose. Are they satisfactory to the minister?


Mr. ROCHE:: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: The only important change is the amendment in section 4 changing the close season for the hunting and killing of moose, deer and mountain goats. I presume my hon. friend has looked into the matter and is satisfied that the period suggested is preferable to the one contained in the Bill as it passed this House.


William Roche: The officials of my department assure me that it is all right.


Frank Oliver: Would the minister state shortly the effect of this amendment?


William Roche: The difference made by the amendment ie this: in our paragraph (a) of section 4, we have the following arrangements for the close season: moose, caribou, deer, mountain sheep and mountain goats between the 1st day of April and the 15th day of July and between the 1st day of October and the 1st day of December. The Senate have amended that so that the close season is:
Moose, deer, and mountain goat between the 1st day of April and the 1st day of September.
That is, they are extending the time from the 15th of July to the 1st of September. As regards caribou and mountain sheep, they are adding to the close season already provided for in the Bill, the period from the 1st of April to the 1st of August.
Amendments concurred in.



SUPPLY.

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The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Rainville in the Chair.
Trade and Commerce-Imperial Year Book of Canada, $4,000.
['The intention was that the fuel controller was to get the coal to parties in Canada at a reasonable price. I should prefer to look over the Order in Council before saying just what his powers are.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Hon. Mr. Reid, the House adjourned at 11 p.m.\nTuesday, September 4, 1917.']
Mr. MURPHY:: Will the minister explain what this publication is?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: This publication, which is now in, its third edition, is called The Imperial Year Book because it publishes statistics of the whole Empire. If my hon. friend has seen either of the two previous editions he will appreciate the completeness and scope of the work. The third edition, a book of about six hundred pages, is now in the press and will soon be ready for distribution. I have seen a good many of these year books, but this is one of the fullest and most complete of which I have knowledge. In all, 7,500 copies are to be issued. Of these, we issue 2,500 copies under our own direction, and the others are issued under the advisement of the Government; that is, a list is submitted to the Government for its approval.


Charles Murphy: Did we purchase copies of the previous issues?


George Green Foster: Yes.


Charles Murphy: Who publishes it?


George Green Foster: The author of it is in Montreal. The soul and body of the work is Mr. Southall. The book has been very highly commended, and I have received numerous requests that we should help it through this war year, which, of course, is a pretty difficult year. A number of copies will be sent to our consuls and trade commissioners for distribution to such bodies as they see fit. Boards of trade, chambers of commerce, libraries and similar institutions, both in the Englishspeaking world and outside, but mainly in the English-speaking world, will receive copies of the book. Altogether, I think this is an appropriation which will be exceedingly useful in its results.


Wilfrid Laurier: I must confess that I am ignorant of this book. I do not know whether a copy has ever reached me. Is it a book of statistics on the British Empire?


George Green Foster: Purely statistical from beginning to end.


Wilfrid Laurier: Relating to
trade navigation and commerce, etc.?


George Green Foster: Yes. It touches every department of our administrative work.


Charles Murphy: Is it printed at the Printing Bureau?


George Green Foster: No, it is not a government work. We are simply buying copies.
Bureau of Industrial and Scientific Research- Salaries and expenses, including printing and stationery, and the collection and distribution of information, $43,600.


Wilfrid Laurier: "Salaries and expenses, including printing and stationery," is a very elastic term.


George Green Foster: It has to be elastic. My hon. friend understands the organization of the .advisory council. It consists of eleven members, who, with one exception, are all giving their services gratis. The administrative commissioner, Professor MacCallum, receives a salary of $10,000. This item of $43,600 is for the travelling expenses of the council, and expenses incurred in gathering information and making their investigations. As regards studentships, we are following the plan which has been adopted by the advisory council in Great Britain and elsewhere. The idea is to get hold of those students who are just about ready to leave the university, and who have proved themselves during a collegiate or scientific course of any kind to be particularly adapted for investigation along a certain line. The studentship is $600 for the first year, and $750 for the second year if a second year is added.


Charles Murphy: Is that to maintain them at the university?


George Green Foster: I will explain it. In order to get a studentship these young men must continue their investigations along a line which must be approved by the advisory council. Full inquiry is made into the student's antecedents, the work he has done, and his ability in the particular line of inquiry in which he is engaged.
If that is a line of inquiry which commends itself to the advisory council as likely to prove useful and advantageous in connection with the industries of the country, they may approve of such an one for a studentship. The university gives him the run of the university during the year of his studentship; that is, he has the advantage of the laboratory and whatever is necessary in his investigation. That is the contribution on the part of the university toward that year's work, and the studentship of $600 is granted to induce him to carry on his investigation for the year. If, at the end of that year, after thorough examination and supervision by the advisory council, it is found that he has made much pro-

gress in that line of his work that it promises to yield beneficial results for practical purposes in the industry to which it is allied, a second year scholarship may be given under the same conditions and carried out in much the same way, except that it is not necessary for this second year's work to be carried on all the while in the university; the student may be transferred t-o a large industrial concern where he can carry on his investigations in connection with the .actual work of the industry itself. In the United States and Great Britain it is considered to be an essential part of the work of the student that a certain amount of time should be devoted to this work in the atmosphere and amidst the practical surroundings of the industry to which 'his investigation is allied. A student or a fellow has to promise that he will devote his work and his ability to our own country. It is a rather pitiful comment that nine-tenths of possibly the brightest scientific students who have been developed in our country have gone to other countries to carry out the practical results of their work, many of them to the United States. There are students who have thus gone out from our colleges who to-day, in the United States, are drawing salaries of anywhere from $5,000 to $20,000. That is the talent we need to keep in our own country, so far as possible; it is the kind of talent which is now, more than ever before, absolutely necessary to the development of our industries on the lines of competition, with the saving and resulting effects that come from the application of close scientific knowledge to the industry itself. As an example of the kind of investigation contemplated, one of these aids is to be bestowed on an investigation now going on in the University of Saskatchewan as to the possibility of utilizing straw for the purpose of making gas. As a by product of the making of gas out of straw there is quite a large percentage of valuable oil. These investigations have been going on under one of the professors in the Saskatchewan University, and one of our aids will be given to assist in bringing that, if possible, to an ultimate and successful conclusion, so that the vast quantities of straw now mostly wasted in the West (although part of it is eaten by young cattle) may be utilized in heating and lighting and producing motive power for the people on the prairies.


William Pugsley: When was the bureau established?

5S77


George Green Foster: A year ago last June.


William Pugsley: The minister has stated that among the salaries there is one of $10,000 to Dr. 'MacCallum. What other salaries are paid out of the $43,000?


George Green Foster: Dr. MacCallum, the administrative chairman, is the only salaried one of the advisory council. We have a secretary of the council who is an officer of the Department of the Interior. This gentleman has offered his services free of charge to the advisory council this year as secretary, and he is carrying out that work excellently. He divides his time between his duties in the Interior Department and his duties for the council, working particularly in the evenings for the council. I refer to Mr. Challies, who is a most valuable secretary at this juncture. He is thoroughly conversant with the water-power system of the Dominion, and his knowledge of this and cognate subjects has been of great assistance. Outside of that we pay no salaries except for the clerical and stenographic help that is required. I think I can say to the committee that probably the most important work now being carried out is the issuing of sets of questionnaires to the colleges and universities, to the scientific societies and associations, and to the industrial establishments of the country, to ascertain the facilities and resources for research which now exist, and by whom and to what extent they are being utilized. Going out into the wider fields of industry to get this information from the industries, we ask: what are the problems which meet you in the development of your industry, whether it is some operation in connection with steel, or gas, or water-power, or any of the many problems that come up. It is desired to get a tabulation of all that information. All these questionnaires have been sent out but, as I explained the other day, the sending out of the questionnaires will not be the only means adopted to obtain the information desired. The Mining Institute, the Manufacturers' Association, the Chemical Association and other societies have volunteered their own personal work in seeing that a question, as it is directed to any establishment, shall be understood and answered. They have perfected their organization and they have engaged in actively supervising and facilitating the collection of that information, from 500 to 600 persons. AH this work is done voluntarily and out
of the good will of these societies, the whole of it being destined to bring that basis of information in a collated form in which it can be made the groundwork for subsequent action. When these answers come in and the advisory council find what these problems are, they analyse the problems by means of their various committees. They select those of them which they consider the most important for solution and they, having the knowledge of, the facilities, and the resources for investigation, distribute each problem to the resources of research which is working along that particular line. Another important investigation which they are supervising at the present time has reference to the tar sands of the West which have already been under investigation by the western universities. This investigation will be aided to a certain extent from this vote.


Charles Murphy: Do I understand the
minister to say that Mr. Ghallies, or his work, will be assisted out of this vote?


George Green Foster: I said that Mr. Challies was anxious to do what he could in this way and that he had offered his services for a year during the war period free of charge.


Mr. KNOWLES:: The item of " special
problems " seems to be nebulous for me to give my support to. Anything in the world can be included in it and the minister's remarks have left me in a more nebulous condition mentally than when I first glanced at the item. The people's money is very precious nowja-days. This money has to be taken from the people and it seems to me that the special problem 'that everybody has to deal with now is to know where to get the money to pay the taxes rather than to increase the taxes by an artificial expenditure on an academic matter called the solving of special problems. If you are going to solve the problems of this country it will take a great deal more money than the sum that the minister has placed before the committee. I would think that the greatest problems now confront-4 p.m. ing this country are the servant girl problem, the bi-lingual problem, and the conscription problem. Why should we toy with the people's money in an era of high prices by undertaking investigation and research work into such purely academic and nebulous matters as are described here as special problems? All levity aside, the most pressing problem with which, this country is now confronted at d one to which this money might well

be devoted is the war. I think the minister might very well drop this nebulous and mystic thing called " special problems."


George Green Foster: 
Mr. CARROLL:: I understand that these studentships and fellowships are for the purpose of investigating special problems but I did not understand what the $25,000 was for.
	,


George Green Foster: There are studentships and fellowships and then there are special problems which are to be attacked.


William F. Carroll: I understand about the studentships and fellowships.


George Green Foster: They are really processes by which the students as students always have to progress in their researches. Whilst engaged in research work upon any line, if they are successful we get the practical result of that investigation but they are still perfecting themselves along lines of research and learning to be successful investigators. In that line of research, carried on after a university course of one or two years, they might light upon certain solutions and they might be very successful in that way. But the problems, one of two of which I mentioned, are to be undertaken by men who are expert researchers, and the vote of $25,000 is to provide for this work.


William F. Carroll: The University of Saskatchewan is investigating the various purposes for which straw may be utilized. Is that, for example, a special problem, to which a portion of this $25,000 will go?


George Green Foster: In that particular case, I think, if I remember rightly, it is to provide an analyst for the professor who has been carrying on the investigation for a year or more.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand these students are to be selected from among the most proficient in certain lines of study; will they be selected by Professor Macallum?


George Green Foster: These gentlemen who make up the advisory council are really representatives of our universities, where scientific courses are carried on, as for instance, McGill, Kingston and the others. The council gets into communication, in the best way they can, with all the local students who are approaching their final terms in these different universities, and gets their history from the university authorities. By that process of inquiry, and often by actual interview of some member of the advisory council with these young men, they obtain the information. Of course, every young man carries on these studies in the university under the superintendence of some professor or expert, and the council gets the report from the professor or expert as to the young man's work. Something depends, too, upon the kind of investigation which the young man is carrying on. With reference to some

lines of investigation the advisory council would say: That is all very well for pure science, but we want to get hold of what attaches itself particularly to the uses of industrial work; your line of investigation is good in its way, but we will not take that. They have the power to make their choice, and in that way they come to their conclusions as to who shall receive these studentships.


William Pugsley: Would the minister
kindly state in what line of work Professor MacCallum has achieved distinction? The minister might also tell us who comprise the advisory board.


George Green Foster: I thought my hon. friend understood all about it, and I did not want to bother him with it.


William Pugsley: I think it is well to publish it. .


George Green Foster: I have already read it in the House.


William Pugsley: Does it appear on Hansard?


George Green Foster: Yes. The administrative chairman is A. B. MacOallum, M.D., Ph.D., Sc.D., LL.D., F.R.S., Ottawa.


Wilfrid Laurier: What do all these letters mean?


Mr. GRAHAM:: We want an interpretation clause.


George Green Foster: I do not want to make the matter too easy for the hon. gentlemen opposite. The members of the council are:	F. D. Adams, Ph.D., Sc.D.,
LL.D., F.R.S. Dean, Faculty of Applied Science, McGill University, Montreal; T. Bienvenu, Esq., vice-president and general manager, La Banque Provinciale du Canada, Montreal; R. Hobson, Esq., president Steel Company of Hamilton, Ont.; S. F. Kirkpatrick, M.Sc., professor metallurgy, Queen's University, Kingston, Ont.; J. C. McLennan, Ph.D., F.R.S., professor of physics and director of the physics laboratory, University of Toronto, Toronto; A. S. Mackenzie, Ph.D., D.C.L., president Dal-housie University, Halifax, N.S.; W. C. Murray, M.A., LL.D., president University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan; R. A. Ross, Esq., E.E. (Tor.), M. Can. Soc. C.E., consulting engineer, 80 St. Francois Xavier street, Montreal; R. F. Ruttan, M.A., M.D., Sc.D., professor of chemistry and director of the chemical laboratories, McGill University, Montreal; Arthur Surveyer, B.A.Sc., M. Can. Soc. C.E., consulting engineer, 274 Beaver Hall Hill, Montreal; secretary, J. B. Challies, CE. (Tor.), M. Can. Soc. C.E., superintendent Dominion Water-Power Branch, Ottawa.


William Pugsley: By whom were these
gentlemen appointed?


George Green Foster: The Governor in Council. I may say that Dr. McLennan, professory of physics in Toronto, is now in England, iand the advisory council have appointed him to represent them on the advisory council there. The advantage which we get, and which they get from that is this: he meets with them and they have information of all that we are doing here along this line, and he gets information from them as to how they are carrying on their work on the other side. It is an interchange of information, of ideas, and of suggestions.


William Pugsley: My hon. fyiend, instead of answering my question, gave a long list of handles to Dr. MacCallum. One was that he was a doctor of philosophy, and the other that he was a doctor of science, but in what line of work has he gained distinction? Is it in the line of applied science?


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: He is one of the most distinguished scientific men in Canada. For many years he has been professor of pathology in the University of Toronto. He is a noted physiologist, and also a chemist of high standing. I do not know any better qualified man, from the standpoint of general scientific knowledge, 'in Canada than Professor MacCallum.


William Pugsley: I am glad to learn that he has gained distinction in the work of chemistry, because I would suppose that is the most important work that this bureau would have to perform. I recognize the very great importance of it, and all that I was anxious to know was that the work was to be undertaken on practical lines.


Mr. MARCIL:: Has the hon. minister mentioned any representative of Laval University on that board?


George Green Foster: I have not. In preparing the list for the advisory -council the desire Wias to obtain men from the universities, and to make the very best selection of scientific men along practical lines that could possibly be made, and, of course, it must be along scientific lines. Inquiry was made in reference to Laval University, I may inform my hon. friend,

but it was not found that that university had on its list any specially distinguished professor in the lines of work which we require in the advisory council.


Charles Marcil: I am surprised to hear the hon. gentleman say that, because Laval is affiliated with all the colleges in Quebec. To be told that there was not a man to be found in that university fit to serve on a council like this is news to me.


George Green Foster: My hon. friend should not put it that way. A great number of men in Canada are fit to serve on a body like this, but we want only a restricted number, and we try to get those who will best make up that restricted number. I am informed that. Mr. Surveyor is a graduate of Laval.


William Pugsley: Is that the lawyer?


George Green Foster: Thank Heaven, this is one board that is able to get along without a lawyer.


Charles Marcil: Laval occupies an unique position in this country. It is the university that first had a Royal charter in Canada; it is representative of one class of the population. In undertaking a work such as my hon. friend is now undertaking, I assume that he desires the co-operation of all the elements of the population. Laval has produced many distinguished men; some of them are to-day in Quebeo colleges-men of high standing. They may be found also in the Royal Society of Canada and in other learned bodies. I am sure that if the minister will give the matter consideration, he will come to the conclusion that it would be good policy to include in this body a representative of Laval University.


Frank Oliver: At the risk of incurring the unfavourable criticism of the ministeriSir GEORGE FOSTER: Do not be afraid of that.


Frank Oliver: -I take very much the same position as that taken by the member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles). I cannot help thinking that however meritorious this proposal may be or would be at any other time, this is not an appropriate time or occasion to introduce it. There is the foundation here of a large organisation, involving the expenditure of a large amount of money -money that will be devoted more to organization than to the producing of results. At this time we cannot afford to 6pend money on anything but results'. At a time when the requirements of the

country are so immense, so urgent; when we are descending to the point of soliciting private help from individuals throughout the country for the carrying of our war burdens, we should not enter upon what the member for Moosejaw calls a nebulous scheme of scientific research. My hon. friend mentioned two matters that are of interest particularly to the prairie West. One is the discovery at Moosejaw of a method for the production of gas from straw. This is a matter of inventive genius; it is not in any way indebted to scientific research arrangements; it is not connected with this or any other similar proposal. My hon. friend now proposes to introduce a subsidiary matter in connection with that as an excuse for the establishment of this big organization. If he is desirous of carrying to success the extraction of various articles from the tar product of^ the gas, a small grant to the university of Saskatchewan will produce all the results in that particular that his proposed organization will produce. The same may be said with regard to the tar sand of the Athbaska. If my hon. friend is desirous of securing information that will lead to the utilization of the tar sand, a small grant to the university of Alberta would produce probably better results than would be produced under this organization that he proposes. The time is ill-judged for launching what will turn out to be a very expensive organization, whether it produces any results or not. The amount he asks for is not seriously large; it is the principle that I object to-the principle of introducing new expenditures and new causes for expenditure into the Budget at this time of stress and trial, when we are preaching, or assuming to preach, to the people the necessity of their saving in order that they may serve.


George Green Foster: A grant is proposed to be given in reference to the extraction of benzine and toluene from coal gas by means of absorbents for the purpose of accurately determining the quantity of these compounds. There is in the coal gas product in the various cities and towns of this continent a considerable quantity of these two compounds, particularly of the first. These go to waste at the present time; they are valuable, and a solution of the problem would be of incalculable benefit. A grant is to be given to the University of Manitoba under the charge of one of its professors; that is the very thing that my hon. friend thinks we

ought to do. The grant is given under the supervision of the advisory council; it is not a subsidy to assist the university; it is a grant for a specific purpose. The separation of tar from the tar sand is another very important matter. If that problem could be solved, immense benefit would result to the western country. A grant of a small amount, about $1,500, is to be given to that university under the supervision of the proper professor-who is conversant with the question and who is carrying out an investigation at present-to enable him to carry his work to a conclusion. That is the very principle upon which we are proceeding; and that, I think, answers the objection that my hon. friend made in one part of his remarks.


Frank Oliver: What the minister has said in regard to grants to universities exactly bears out what I say: the practical result to be expected will be reached by the making of small grants to the universities. I am not suggesting that the minister should make grants to universities in respect of these particular questions, but if he feels the impulse to do something, let him make the grants to the universities directly for these purposes; let him not launch upon this country at this time an expensive organization which will cost $91,000 to start-no one knows how much it will cost to carry it on-when all that he proposes actually to spend in regard to the tar sand is $1,500. I presume a similar amount will be expended for research work in regard to the tar extract from the gas from burning straw, and possibly a similar amount as to the extract from coal gas. Those are moderate amounts, and I suppose nobody will object to their expenditure for such purposes. Let the minister make those expenditures if he pleases, and the country will support him, but let him not burden this country with an expenditure of $100,000 for the purpose of giving four or five thousand dollars for actual research work.	#


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The expenditure of $100,000 for scientific research in Canada is not objectionable, if we have the proper -organization. It is quite possible, if real practical work is done by the commission, for an expenditure of $100,000 to yield a return of $1,000,000. I suppose one of the best instances of the value to a country of scientific work was that performed by the late Mr. Saunders in the Department of Agriculture. Mr. Saunders developed a seed wheat for Canada which matured some
weeks earlier than any other wheat that had been known prior to this time in Canada.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: What wheat is that?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I do not know what the name of the wheat is, but the fact which I have seen stated in government publications is that, through Mr. Saunders' effort, a special wheat was developed which matured very much earlier in Canada than any wheat previously known. I did not know that this fact was ever in question. I could easily put my hand upon written authority in which it is stated by very prominent persons that the result of this was the widening of the wheat belt in western 'Canada by many miles.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I think the wheat to which the hon. member refers is Marquis wheat. The experience of practical farmers has been that it matures eight or ten days earlier than other kinds.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The hon. gentleman may be correct, but I am simply stating to the committee a fact which I have seen stated a score of times. I am giving it to the committee just as I have gained it from my reading, and I have no doubt I am correct in this.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I only wish the statement were true.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It is well known that the work done by Mr. Saunders in this respect resulted in securing for Canada a seed wheat which enables us to harvest wheat very much earlier than we were able to do before, and that was a very important matter in a country in which the summer season is short. If what I have stated is correct, Mr. Saunders' work was worth millions of dollars to Canada.
When the Bill establishing this commission was before the committee, I objected to the personnel of the commission, and I want to repeat my objection. It is not satisfactory to the people of Canada; it is not satisfactory to some of the members of the commission. The men constituting that commission should be much younger men with some practical experience. I do not believe in establishing a commission composed of men who are able to give attention to this work for only a few days in a year. The appointment of such a commission is fraught with great possibilities for this country. The idea is absolutely sound. This is the time above all others in our history when we should be doing work of this kind. The very fact that we have a

tremendous debt to meet in consequence o! the war is one reason why we should engage in this sort of work. My experience-and I am sure it is the case with other hon. gentlemen-is that I am frequently approached by men in my province who are confronted with some problem for the solution of which they desire scientific assistance. They cannot very well purchase this knowledge; they are not in a position to go abroad and bring into this country experts who would solve such problems, and this work should be done by the country, because it will aid in developing our commerce and our trade. Great care should be exercised in the selection of the board. I think a mistake has already been made; in fact, the whole board is a mistake. I do not wish to say anything more about it, because it is not pleasant discussing the personnel of a commission of this kind for, after all, the men on it are distinguished men and amongst our best citizens. But it is possibe to make a very grave mistake in judgment in selecting men for this work even if you do take them from amongst the most distinguished men of our universities. A great problem for a body of this kind would be in connection with soil fertilization. Nothing could be more important than that to this country. If this commission can ascertain some method of providing for the farmers of this country a fertilizer, in sufficient quantities and at a fair price, they will be doing something which will be worth millions of dollars to this country, and the expenditure of $100,000 would be a small matter in accomplishing such a result. What does the minister purpose doing in co-ordinating the work to be done by the commission and that which is now done by other departments? There are scientific men in the Department of Agriculture. There is a vote in the supplementary estimates of $6,000 for forestry studies. I do not know if it is advisable to make an expenditure for that purpose just at present. There are in the Department of Agriculture now some technical officials whose work is particularly talong such lines.


George Green Foster: Forestry lines?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Yes.


George Green Foster: That' is in the Interior Department.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: In the Interior Department to some extent, and in the Department of Agriculture there is at least one gentleman whose work is along that

line. In the Mines Branch there are quite a number of scientific men who devote their time to the scientific side of our mines and minerals, and you will probably find scientific men in other departments. Is the minister going to have them work together or separately? Could not their labours he co-ordinated? Possibly it might be advisable to take the scientific men from all the departments and put them into this branch.


George Green Foster: That is exactly what is being very successfully done, and with the greatest good-will on the part of all the departments. They understand each other, and the council works with them and they work with the council. The idea is to co-ordinate and to bring, so to speak, into focus all those different agencies that have been doing excellent work, each by itself. My hon. friend is quite mistaken as to the number of men engaged in forestry work connected with the Department of Agriculture. They are in the Interior De-partmeat and in the Conservation Commission. They are working in strict conjunction, and the experiment, for which this vote is in the estimates to-day, is to be carried out by the experts in the Interior Department. It is not by any means a duplication of energy. The intention is to avoid that and to co-ordinate and concentrate the work upon the development of the resources of Canada.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: I understood my hon. - friend from Halifax to say that 6ome of these men are devoting only a portion of their time and energies to this work. If that is so, how many of the council are devoting their whole time and energies to the work? Some of them, surely.


George Green Foster: The only one
who is doing that is the administrative chairman. My hon. friend must remember that these gentlemen have been selected because of their eminence and practical knowledge in certain lines of investigation,. It was never contemplated that they should themselves go into the laboratory and conduct experiments. They constitute a committee to set to work, and keep at work, and co-ordinate all the different agencies, and to apply whatever money we may appropriate for work along these lines. All of these men, with the exception of Dr. jVracOallum, are giving their services free, but that does not mean that they are simply taking a holiday and taking no interest in the matter. These men have been at work now foT more than a year, and I know what

they have done. They have devoted a very laTge portion, of their busy lives to this work, and are thoroughly enthusiastic in seeing that it is brought to a successful issue- that it shall not be a mere fad, but give practical results which will be of very great benefit to the country. The council hae met in Ottawa once or twice a month since it was appointed. They sit from three to five days; at one meeting here they sat a whole week. They are not treating this matter as a plaything or anything of that kind.
Their viewpoint was a very good one, and it entirely coincided with mine. A council of that kind, with that desire and that ability to work along these lines, cannot, if good results are to be obtained, all be working separately with no one responsible for the whole work. It wae essential that one man should be appointed to co-ordinate their efforts, and the best man amongst them was chosen-he was their choice ae well as mine-to act in that capacity, to direct, to consult, to keep the whole machine going, as it were, with these men as the motive power. But that is really the smallest thing that has been done. The advisory council has been at work a little over a year now, and in that time has brought together all the different forces in. the Dominion that are engaged in industrial or scientific research, and which hitherto had been doing their work on their own, often duplicating each other, and lacking that energy and spirit that comes from co-ordination with other workers in the same line with a common object in view. The research branch of the Interior and Mining Departments, the Conservation Commission, the Inland Revenue and other research branches, have all been linked up with this general endeavour. In a little over a year all this dispersed effort has been concentrated, and has become inspired witlh a spirit and energy, and with a determined effort to work along these lines, that was foreign to them entirely a year ago. The council has put new spirit into them all.
I do not need to follow up what my hon. friend from Halifax said as to the immense necessity of this work, particularly at this time. A few thousand dollars is a mere bagatelle to the advantage that only one successful solution along some line might bring to the economic strength of this country. This work is almost an absolute necessity, if we are to keep abreast with other nations. My hon. friend says that this is not the commission we should have appointed. I would ask him to give t'he commission a free rein for a while, and after a year or so, I think he will come out of that contemplative area in which he has rested for about a year now, as respects undue criticism, and I think he will then revise his opinion of these men. Nobody can select members to suit everybody; we all have our opinions about them. But I am of the opinion that we have just about the very best council that could have been got together in the whole Dominion.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would it not be well to have some representative of agriculture on the council?


George Green Foster: I suppose there is not a college or university in the whole Dominion which symbolizes agriculture so much as does the university of Saskatchewan, over which Dr. Murray presides. That is the foundation principle of his university, which was founded with a view to the agricultural possibilities and necessities of that great province.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That hardly answers my question. I know Professor Murray very well. He has had very little to do with agriculture in a practical or scientific way in all his experience. He is a very busy man and is engaged in the building up of a new university in a new province. I am not objecting to him being a member of the board at all, because he is an excellent man indeed, one of the very best on the council. Still, I think it would be desirable to appoint another representative of agriculture to the board, with the qualifications I have indicated.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: As these scientific men receive no salary, I can see no reason why the minister should not enlarge the council. It is a very big problem these men are undertaking, and there does not seem to be any reason why the number of members should be limited. There is a university in Nova Scotia, St. Francis Xavier, which lias a number of eminent men on its staff who are devoting their time to scientific research, and I am sure some one among them could be found who would be of great value to the council if the minister should make up his mind to enlarge the number, I trust he will not fail to give this proposal his best consideration. I agree with my hon. friend from Halifax that youth counts for a great deal in work of this kind, especially for the chairman, and if the minister has put in charge of this work a man whose best days are over, and who has not the energy required for this work, I think he has made a mistake. I

do not know Professor MacCalhim at all, but I have heard that remark made by men who are interested in the work of this council.


George Green Foster: What does my hon. friend think is the age of Dt. MaeCad-lum?


John Howard Sinclair: That is what I want to know.


George Green Foster: You seem to have assumed that he is an old man. He is a comparatively young man.


William Pugsley: What does "comparatively" mean?


George Green Foster: He is somewhere around fifty-five or fifty-six. I do not consider a man old at that age.


George Perry Graham: If that is so, he is almost too young.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister should be able to give exact information on that subject.


George Green Foster: He may be older than that; I do not know.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister has not yet stated the salary to be paid.


George Green Foster: $10,000 per year.


William Pugsley: Not a bad salary.


Mr. ROSS:: Every member of this committee will agree in the principle that it is a proper thing for the Government to pursue research on special problems. It may be very laudable and very profitable for the country to do so. But it may be questioned whether this is the proper time to establish a system of work of this kind, with our finances in the condition they now are and with pressing need for money for other purposes. I think the minister should not ask us to pass the various items included in this vote without giving more details. The first item is for $43,600 for salaries and expenses, including printing, stationery, etc. The minister has told us that the salary of the chairman is $10,000. He has told us, moreover, that none of the members except the chairman receive any salary. That still leaves $33,600, for salaries and expenses, to .be accounted. This Government, since it came into power, has proceeded with almost a riotous abandon to create public officials, and it would look from this vote as though they were going to follow their own bad example. The minister owes it to the committee to

inform it as to how the $33,600 is to be expended. . What is the staff of this bureau to consist of? Do they have to pass the Civil Service Commission and be appointed by that body, or are they to be appointed by the Government of its own motion? The minister has said that Professor MacCal-lum's duty is to keep the whole machine going and that is the smallest part of the work, yet in addition to the salary of the chairman, there is this $33,000. The minister should give more detailed information as to how the money is to be spent.


Mr. NICKLE:: It seems to me that the criticism which hon. gentlemen opposite are directing towards this vote is founded on a thorough misapprehension of Canada's requirements in the solution of the industrial problems that confront her. Prior to the outbreak of the war it was recognized that Germany and the United States were making more rapid advance industrially than any other nations in the world. Germany was making her advance because she had applied technical education to the education of her workmen, and had solved industrial problems by the application of chemistry and science. Some one has said that if Germany. had been willing to stand by for another fifteen years she would have dominated the world industrially and economically and would never have had1 to fight this war. The United States was making the same advances in the industrial world that Germany was making, and the reason that these two nations were making such tremendous strides was that each had started much later in the industrial activities of the world than England. England had developed her industries along individualistic lines; they were not as all-embracing as those of Germany and the United States. The United States had taken advantage of the co-ordination of wealth -and effort, and had developed tremendous industries. Germany had also attained the same thing with state aid, the result being that these two nations were enabled, through their mighty industries, to take advantage of the intelligence of the world and to apply chemistry and science to industrial problems. England, with her smaller industrial establishments, had been less progressive. We in Canada are just at the beginning of things. Gentlemen on the other side of the House have said that this is not the time to branch out along new lines of work, that we should wait until the war is over, that other things require the expenditure of that money more

than the solution of these industrial problems. It seems to me that these hon. members are entirely wrong, that there never was a time when it was so necessary for Canada to embark on this line of work as it is to-day. Some gentlemen have deprecated the application of science to industry. They must have closed their eyes to what has been going on in the world during the last twenty years. Look what the application of science is doing	in this
war	for the lessening of sickness.
It controls typhoid fever, a disease that, years ago, took two men out of every ten, because in the wars of the past disease took more soldiers than bullets. Look what science has done when applied to industry. We have cheap steel to-day. Why? Because Bessemer applied a process to steel that so cheapened the product that to-day it can toe bought for one-half what it cost a few years ago. Take what has been done in recent years toy the scientific application of electricitj, by making use of our water-powers. To-day munitions are turned out in this country by the use of hardened steel tools in the lathes with a rapidity that a few years ago would have been impossible. We have the steel so tempered and hardened that it can be used in a rapidly moving lathe until the tool practically becomes red hot, so hot that, with the old process, it would have lost it6 point and edge. That is all possible owing to the application of science to industry. Then take the abrasives used in the manufacture of munitions and metal wares. Their production has become possible only through the .application of science to industry. Then if Germany had not solved the problem and were not taking advantage also of Norway's development of electricity in taking the nitrates from the air, the munitions with which Germany is fighting to-day could not be made and peace with victory for the Allies would have come long ago. This line of thought brings another great problem, to our attention. We have in this country great water-powers. We ought to do something to develop another great industry; we ought to take steps along a line of development that will make possible some economic method by which we can get nitrates from the atmosphere, and make a cheap fertilizer for our farmers. I believe that, in the United States to-day, they are spending some millions of dollars in an effort to solve that problem, yet we have done nothing. It seems to me that now is the accepted time
and that we should begin. Reverting to what I said about our having small industries in Canada, and to the point that the great industries of 'Germany and the United States made possible the employment of the best men for the solution of their problems, let me direct attention to the fact that many of the best and brightest men who graduate from1 the universities of this country go to the United States because, when they have graduated from our colleges, there is no opportunity in Canada to secure adequate employment and reasonable remuneration, and if most of our industries have not attained a sufficient size and importance to warrant the expenditure to secure chemists of the highest class, is there any wiser thing for the Government to do than to take the matter in charge, to establish some central bureau or board that would keep in touch with the great problems touching this country's industrial life and the industry of the world, and keep in touch with the brightest minds of the universities, and give assistance to this university or to that, according as its men are working out the solution of one problem or another. I believe that if this scheme is properly managed, it will be of tremendous advantage to the country.. I think it wiser that there should be a central board rather than that grants should be made to this university or that, because if you leave it to the universities-and I speak now as a university man-there will always be a tendency to spend the money on what you might call pure science Tather than on the development of industrial science. If the money that is being expended here should result in the discovery of some process by which the nitrogen contained in the air or feldspar could be made available as a fertilizer, it would do more for this country than ten times or a hundred times the money contained in this vote.
I cannot speak with regard to the personnel of all of the commission. I do not know all the men who compose it. I have for years known Dr. MacCallum, a distinguished graduate and professor of Toronto University; I know Professor Kirkpatrick, professor of metallurgy in Queen's University. I know that he is a man of ability and energy, and that he represents the best thought in the faculty of science of Queen's University. He has applied his brains to the solution of practical problems, and what he has done has been for the advantage of this country. I desire to acknowledge the work that has been done by the young men of the universities. A few years ago an

amount of money was given by this Government to the School of Science at Kingston for the investigation of the cobalt problem, and to see if something could not be done with cobalt ore. Professor Kalmus and his assistants devoted attention to that question for three years, and discovered a process by which cobalt is used as a plating material. It is better and cheaper than silver, it does not tarnish, it lasts longer, stands harder service and wears better. I just quote this simple instance to show how the brains and energy that are to be found within our colleges can be profitably applied. I hope this committee will look' with sympathy upon this vote, and that it will uphold the hands of the minister in trying to get this estimate through the House.
I hope the time is not very far distant when we will have a proposition before this House with reference to technical education. If we are going to develop our scientists in the application of science to industry, we should have technical education so that those who are to be the users of scientific methods may appreciate and make the best use of the scientific processes placed at their disposal.


John Howard Sinclair: What does the minister say to my proposal for the enlargement of his board so as to take in a representative of St. Prancois Xavier College?


George Green Foster: The principle which was decided upon at the first was that we should not make it representative of all the universities, because otherwise the number would be so great that it would be unworkable. Our people have to come from all parts of the Dominion. I think that I was perfectly right in getting a comparatively small committee. That does not, to a single hair's breadth, operate against the co-operation of every university, scientific institution or scientific person in Canada. It is the object of this
5 p.m. council to organize all the talents and scientific knowledge by way of co-operating committees, and the council is at present developing its scheme in that respect. No person from Laval University down to the college of which my hon. friend speaks, or any other person who has abilities in that direction, will be left unsolicited. All others will be solicited and they will he joined into subsidiary committees working in connection with the central body. That is the line upon which Great Britain is proceeding. She has instituted, under her advisory council, committees in every portion of Great Britain,

each for its special line. The idea is to call out from the country and use in this active co-ordinative work all the ability and talent we have.


William Pugsley: Over and above this
advisory council of scientists, there is constituted, I see by the statute, a scientific research subcommittee which is charged with the appointment of this council. How is that subcommittee constituted?


George Green Foster: It is composed
of the Ministers of Mines, Interior, Agriculture, Labour, Inland Revenue and Trade and Commerce. With the exception of the Department of Labour, these departments have research branches.


James Hamilton Ross: What staff has Dr. Mac-
Calluin surrounded himself with and which will be paid out of this amount of S43,600? How many are there and how are they appointed? Are they appointed by the Civil Service Commission, by the Government or by the doctor himself?


George Green Foster: My hon. friend raises a question as to the machinery for carrying out the work and he seems to be seized with a very great fear that there will be some improper manipulation in reference to the help that these gentlemen require. I can assure my hon. friend that there is not the least danger of that. This is not a patronage department in any sense whatever. There will be no patronage in any way. If these gentlemen require to have a question put out in order to get information, we supply Dr. MacCallum with such help as he considers necessary and we apply to the Civil Service Commission for the purpose of getting the help to assist in that work. They are employed while they are able to do the work and no longer. At present there is a secretary without pay, there is a clerk, who has charge of the general department, under Dr. MacCallum, and there 'are temporary helpers to the extent probably of half a dozen who are engaged in the work in connection with these questionnaires. When they finish that work, if other work is necessary to be carried on, they will be at., the disposal of the advisory council, as long as they are required but they will not be kept on a day if there is no work for them to do. I want to assure my hon. friend that it is not the intention with reference to this matter-as indeed it is not the practise with reference to my department-that there shall be any patronage. It is absolutely outside of patronage.


William Pugsley: It must be a very important exception.


George Green Foster: It must really
surprise my bon. friend from St. John taking into account the way he used to carry on his department.


James Hamilton Ross: I think the question is a
very proper one. The minister seems not to have liked it very much.


George Green Foster: The hon. gentleman is wrong in that; I want to give all the information.


James Hamilton Ross: This is public money and
I presume that any member has a perfect right to ask any question. As long as I am here I am going to do it. The minister's .answer does not satisfy me. He still has $33,600 at his disposal after Dr. Mac-Callum has got his $10,000.
I think it is a very laudable and may be a very profitable scheme in any country, but I doubt whether this is the proper time to embark on such a work, in spite of what the hon. member for Kingston has said. The hon. minister tells us the council has a secretary who is not paid, and there are six or seven temporary employees, and that the expenses of this advisory council cannot be very heavy, because they do not meet often. The only other item of expenditure included in this vote is stationery, and yet he asks us for $33,600. I think he should give us more details, or cut down this item because that sum is not needed for the work he has mentioned.


George Green Foster: I will give all the information I can, and the hon. gentleman must not think that I wish to refuse him any. I appreciate his evident anxiety for fear something will go wrong; I could not help but appreciate that anxiety. He said there was $33,600, made up of what items?


Charles Murphy: Deducting $10,000 salary from the first item of $43,600.


George Green Foster: In the first place, these gentlemen who give their services, cannot be of essential service at all unless they meet together.


James Hamilton Ross: Do they have regular meetings?	.


George Green Foster: Yes.


James Hamilton Ross: How often?


George Green Foster: Once or twice a month. They have met regularly, not less than once a month and in some months twice. They come from Halifax in the east,
and from points as far west as Saskatchewan. We pay their travelling and living expenses, and they hold about 20 meetings per year. These expenses form a part of the item. Whatever printing and stationery are necessary have to be provided for. If they require printing done, in order to help them out, it will have to be paid for. They will have to provide for distribution of information in different ways. These questionnaires, to which I have referred, deal with the chief work they are engaged in at the present time, and they involve an immense amount of tabulation. I will lay these questionnaires on the Table. When replies to all these questionnaires come in from industrial establishments, colleges, and scientific institutions, they will have to be collated, and the desired information tabulated. This vote will provide for that work. I am not prepared to say whether this $43,600 will be too much or too little. I have made a rough estimate for the first year, because it is experimental, but I can assure my hon. friend and the committee that nothing will be expended unless it is thought necessary, in the opinion of the advisory council.


William F. Carroll: I have been watching, with some interest, an attempt that has been made to grow trees on Sable Island, for the purpose of keeping the island from wearing away, and becoming more dangerous than it now is. Was that work started under the direction of this board?


George Green Foster: That was commenced earlier.


William F. Carroll: With what success?


George Green Foster: I have not followed it.


William F. Carroll: It might be interesting to direct the attention of the council to that question. The great difficulty is with the soil, which is sandy.


Charles Marcil: I did not hear the minister mention any special problem to be dealt with, except two in western Canada, one with regard to straw being converted into gas, and the other in connection with sand. Is there any problem to be solved in the other provinces?


George Green Foster: The other provinces will not be left out. It is impossible for me to keep pace with all the deliberations of the board, so as to know exactly what they are doing. They are appointed for a certain purpose, and are supposed to be able to select the most important ques-



tions. I remember talking over one problem of great importance which is being considered at the present time, namely, the influence of fogs on sound. That is intimately connected with navigation. There are certain difficulties in respect to it, which, if overcome, will be of great benefit to navigators.


John Howard Sinclair: Might I suggest the importance of investigating certain practical questions connected with the fisheries, for example? We have some problems on the coast of the Maritime Provinces, in connection with the fisheries, which have never been solved, and I do not think any attempt has been made to solve them. For example, we are spending a large sum of money in hatcheries, and millions of lobster spawn are scattered on the face of the waters every year. Although we have been carrying on this propagation of lobsters for many years*, no one can say, with authority, whether these lobsters live, develop and grow. It is* a practical question and an expert should be able to solve it with a little consideration. There is another question with regard to the Sipawning place of the haddock and cod. Applications were made to prevent trawling in certain waters-the Gulf of St. Lawrence, for instance-and many fishermen had the idea that that was the spawning place of these fish, which, if so, would be a strong argument in favour of preventing trawlers operating in that locality during the spawning season. I mention this matter so that the minister can direct the attention of those investigators to these problems, which are of such vital importance to the fishing industry.


William Pugsley: Does this board initiate the matters which are to be investigated, or will they investigate any subjects referred to them, either by the Government, or by individuals? I should like to know upon what line they proceed. We know there are many questions of practical interest which people would like to have investigated. The question asked by my hon. friend from Kingston, in regard to the production of nitrogen from feldspar is a very important matter, and the problem in connection with that has been very largely solved, but it might be taken hold of in a practical way.
So with regard to the obtaining of oil from shales, which are very numerous in this country; so with regard to obtaining byproducts from bituminous coal. Will any

person interested in work of this kind be encouraged to present his views to the board?


George Green Foster: I am quite sure that one of the objects of the board's work will be to find out the problems that are troubling the industrial and productive interests of the country. The questionnaires which have been sent out broadcast have that purpose in view. They are to ascertain from these different -industries and productive interests what their difficulties and problems are; these will be tabulated and work will be begun towards solution of the most important of them through these channels of investigation. Any such questions asked by individuals-not industrial establishments or corporations-will no doubt be taken into consideration by the advisory council. I may say to the member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) that it escaped my recollection that Mr. Surveyer is a professor in Laval University.


Frank Oliver: I take the responsibility of suggesting, in view of the statements made by the minister and of the other information that we have had here to-day, that the organization which my hon. friend proposes will be a- close corporation for the suppression of individual initiative in regard to scientific research.


George Green Foster: I am willing to let it go at that, if my hon. friend is.


Charles Murphy: In times past considerable sums of money were voted for experiments in connection with the production of peat as a domestic fuel, and electric smelting as applied to the production of steel. I think this expenditure was made under the Department of the Interior.


George Green Foster: The Mines
Branch.


Charles Murphy: Is it proposed that these two matters will come under the jurisdiction and special charge of the industrial bureau which we have been discussing?


George Green Foster: The Mines Department is co-ordinated with the advisory committee and they work together. One of the principal aims of the council is to co-ordinate all these different branches of industries. I do not know what practical results have come from these investigations.
I think,that they have succeeded in making a peat which is useful and has been used; how far it has gone towards being a commercial success I do not know. Probably a good deal more money will have to be spent

before the inquiry can be said to be an absolutely successful one.
Steam service between Prince Rupert and Queen Charlotte Islands-further amount required. $5,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is that a
weekly service?


George Green Foster: It is a triweekly service. In order to have it carried on under present conditions, the Piost Office Department and the Department of Trade and Commerce had to make a slight addition to the former subsidy.


Frank Oliver: How many vessels are employed in that service?


George Green Foster: One, the Prince John-a very superior vessel.
Department of Finance and Treasury Board- To hereby promote H. Goode to Third Division, subdivision A, $100.


William Pugsley: I do object to Parliament being asked by legislation to promote a man from one division to another. If this gentleman is entitled to promotion, he is entitled to it under the Civil Service Act... The House is asked "to hereby promote" this gentleman; what right have we to be asked to promote a man from one division to another? If he is entitled to promotion, let him have it, and let a salary be provided for it.


William Thomas White: My hon. friend uses language of hyperbole to describe what is really a very simple and proper transaction My hon. friend is spending the powers of his intellect against a young woman, Miss Goode, who is to be promoted from one division to another, to take the position of Miss McConnell, resigned, who was paid $1,200 a year. She is employed in the office of the chief accountant. Miss Goode entered the -service on July 1, 1915, and has passed the Civil Service examinations for stenographers. When she took over Miss McConnell's work it was found that the Civil Service Commission required her to pass in two or three extra subjects not covered in her stenographer's examinations before it would be possible to promote her to Third Division, subdivision A. She is one of the best clerks in the department, and we should have lost her services if we had not been able to promote her. This is not the best time to obtain skilled assistants of the kind in question; we are finding that out in the department. Generally speaking, I agree that it is not advisable in any way to transgress the provisions of the
335*
Civil Service Act;butl call my hon. friend's attention to item 410, in which the Civil Service Commission has been obliged to do this very thing themselves. Item 410 is to provide for the promotion of one clerk from Third Division, subdivision B, to Third Division, subdivision A, $112.50.


William Pugsley: They have been encouraged by what the minister has done.


William Thomas White: So that if the Civil Service Commission, owing to a shortage of help in a time of war, have felt themselves justified in inserting an item of this kind, I do not think that my hon. friend ought to protest so strongly against our promoting this exceedingly efficient clerk to a position in which she will get $900 a year.
Department of Insurance-to provide for three clerkships in Third Division, Subdivision B: one at $800, one at $700, one at $600-$2,100.


William Thomas White: Several members of the actuarial staff of the department have enlisted. It is proposed to provide substitutes for those by making appointments in the lower divisions, which appointments it is necessary to create, the department having no vacancies in- this- division. Some of the younger men, who were very desirous of going to the front enlisted.


Charles Murphy: What has become of the positions which are vacated? Were salaries voted for them?


William Thomas White: The men who
have enlisted receive their pay and their positions are being held for them, but as the department i3 handicapped by their absence, it is necessary to provide these' substitutes by making appointments in the lower divisions, the idea being that, by the time those men come back, the work will have so increased that it will not be necessary to let any one go. The work of the Insurance Department is very efficiently done, and not with a large staff.
Department of Insurance - contingencies, printing, binding and stationery, including cost of annual reports, further amount required, $5,000.


William Thomas White: This amount is intended to cover the increased cost of printing and materials, and also to provide for an increased circulation. More and more of the reports issued by the Insurance Department are being asked for each year.
Pensions-compassionate allowance to Private Colin C. McNab for a disability arising from service during the Northwest Rebellion. 1885, $1,000.


William Thomas White: I am sorry the hon. member for South Kenfrew (Mr. Graham) is not in his seat. This matter has been discussed at two previous sessions of Parliament. It has been brought to my attention by the Hon. Mr. Graham, by Dr. Maloney of South Kenfrew and some others. Last year, in order that we might have an authentic report upon the case, and be informed as to its merits, I asked the Board of Pensions Commissioners to investigate the matter specially. They did so, and as a result they recommended to me that there was merit in the claim and that an allowance of $1,000 would, in their judgment, fairly meet the case. This item has been inserted accordingly.


Wilfrid Laurier: Why was the claim refused before?


William Thomas White: This man, as I recollect the matter, was not a member of the force, but he had been specially requested to go along as an expert telegrapher. It is, of course, very necessary that telegraphers should accompany an expeditionary force. During his employment in that connection, by reason of exposure and the hardship of the campaign, . his health was so affected that he subsequently became totally blind. There are two points: First, as to whether his blindness was directly related to his experience in the Northwest rebellion, and secondly, as to whether it would1 be proper, under any circumstances, to allow him a pension 5s he was not a member of the combatant force. It is open, of course, to Parliament to bring in a special item providing a pension for any person if the circumstances are such as to warrant it. This seems to be a case in which this man's service rendered to his country was a direct cause of his permanent disability through blindness. The Board of Pensions Commissioners have satisfied themselves that the blindness was so related to his experience, and it seems proper, under the circumstances, that Parliament should! be generous to him.
Miscellaneous-Canadian Associated Press,,


William Thomas White: The explanation of the vote is: The Canadian Associated Press operates a cable service between Great Britain and Canada. This service was established in 1903, aided by a Dominion Government grant. J. Ross Robertson is president, and J. E. Atkinson, secretary-treasurer. A grant of $8,000 was made last year, when the association requested that such an amount be granted each year 
for five years-this being equivalent to the proportionate yearly value of the five years' subsidy ended June 30, 1915. For its last fiscal year, the cost of operating the association's cable services was $21,188, $13,188 being borne by the newspapers. Thirteen of the largest daily papers in eastern Canada take the direct service of the association, while in western Canada thirty papers get the cables through the Western Associated Press. Through regular news channels, the news so cabled is distributed indirectly to the daily and weekly press of the Dominion. During the past year, 208,-*000 words were cabled in addition to ordinary news of interest in connection with trade and financial matters, questions of interest to Canada and the Empire, etc. Since the war special attention has been paid to the activities of the Canadian forces in England, while a special correspondent pays a periodical visit to the front in France.
Miscellaneous-to provide for the administration of the Business Profits War Tax Act, 1916 ; appointments for the purpose may be made without reference to the provisions of the Civil Service Act, $150,000.


William Thomas White: A similar estimate was adopted by the House last year. It is, of course, only an estimate. The other day I brought down in the House an answer to a question in which I gave the information, if my recollection serves me aright, that the cost of administration for the portion of the year up to March 31 last during which the Act had been under administration, was something under $100,000. We think $150,000 will be an adequate estimate, and it is really a low percentage, having regard to the amount of taxation which we expect to collect from the Business Profits War Tax Act and its amendment this year. The staff was organized last year with representatives in every province, and in some provinces three or four representatives, with such clerical assistance as was necessary to carry out the work.


Wilfrid Laurier: Do you propose to increase the staff?


William Thomas White: It will be the same staff. What I have in mind at present is to extend the business profits war tax staff in order that they may carry out also the administration of the income tax. It will undoubtedly be necessary to have a very large staff to carry out efficiently the income tax measure. It is the first work of that kind that has been done under Do-

minion administration, and every province will have to be covered, but we have a nucleus in the business profits war tax staff, and by expanding that I hope to cover the ground.


Charles Murphy: Why are you excluding the Civil Service Commission from making these appointments?


William Thomas White: It is not because I do not realize the utility of the Civil Service Commission, but I do not believe it would be possible to get qualified men who were capable of passing the Civil Service examination in time for the organization of a staff such as we have in mind. Take our experience last year. It was necessary to find men of business and accounting experience, and it. is very difficult to get those men. We got men around 35, or 40, or 45 years of age, who had had banking or business experience, and after considerable trouble we managed to get together what I regard as a very creditable staff.
I am quite satisfied, however, that few of them, if any, would be able to pass the Civil Service examination. The type of man you want is a man who knows business pretty well, and men pretty well, and has a certain force of character, but who probably would not be able to pass the academic examination which he might have been able to pass when he was sixteen years of age. My hon. friend from Russell could not begin to pass the Civil Service examination.


Charles Murphy: I would not attempt it.


William Thomas White: And as for the leader of the Opposition, he would be hopeless.


George William Kyte: Is it the intention of the
minister to appoint members of the outside service in various parts of Canada to administer the Income Tax Act?


William Thomas White: 1 have not given the matter the attention it will receive before we can determine upon the organization. My own view is that if this Act is efficiently administered-and I do not want to administer it unless it is efficiently administered-we must have officials whose business it is to look after income assessments throughout this country. It has been suggested to me that we should use the provincial machinery. I doubt very much the advisability of that. The responsibility for the administration of this Act rests upon the Dominion Government, and I think it must be carried out through officials who are responsible to the Government for administering the Act. I do not think the work should be done by Customs or ether officials throughout the country giving a small portion of their time to it.
I would prefer to have each province organized with an efficient staff whose duties will be to see that assessable incomes in Canada are assessed, and that those who derive them will pay this taxation. If that is not done, I am satisfied that the income tax administration will be more or less a farce. In the cities of this country the municipal income tax is not administered as it should be. Of course, there are a great many exemptions which are not in our Act. Our Act calls for the assessment of the whole income of individuals no matter how derived, and so far as I can see, there are not many loopholes, if any, for escape. I am perfectly satisfied it would be a profound mistake to skimp it, by trying to get men who. will give a little of their time to the work, and who would necessarily discharge their duties in a perfunctory fashion. The Act. should he administered in a business-like way in order that those who are subject to this tax shall pay it. These are but general observations. I am sorry I am not able to answer my Jion. friend more particularly, but he knows how busy I have been during the last two weeks in the House, and I have not yet turned my mind to the question of organization.


George William Kyte: If the minister will permit me to make a suggestion, I think he might with profit utilize the services of the municipal clerks and treasurers. In municipalities there are, in all probability, only a comparatively small number of men with incomes liable for assessment under this Act, and it would seem to me to be an unprofitable expenditure to appoint officials of this Government for the special purpose of collecting the income tax when there are not more than a dozen or two incomes to tax in a municipality. The municipal clerks and treasurers are familiar with the circumstances of all persons in the municipality; they are used to looking after the collection of taxes for municipal purposes, and it does seem to me that the collection of the income tax by this Government could be more efficiently done by municipal clerks and treasurers, particularly in the smaller municipalities in Nova Scotia. I would ask the minister to take this suggestion into consideration, and I think upon receiving more information he will conclude that I am right in saying that these men will be

the best persons to perform this work, being able to do it more efficiently and with less expense than officials specially appointed.


William Thomas White: I am much obliged for my hon. friend's suggestion, which I shall be glad to take into consideration. It was not in my mind, however, that the Government should appoint officials with limited districts, speaking geographically, to look after the administration of the Act. 1 should not like to appoint an official who had only a few assessments to make. But if we had an organization adequate to cover the province of Nova Scotia and other provinces, so that they would all be engaged all the time, I think there could be no objection to such a scheme, and if the information could be obtained, I think that would be the better way. But I am very glad indeed to have the suggestion of my hon. friend.	j


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 
William Thomas White: I have made no appointments having regard to political considerations, as nothing could be more unfair than to have polities mixed up with the administration of a taxation. Act. Before making an appointment in Halifax, I consulted a number of the leading business men of the city, and finally a very reputable man, who, I believe, is acceptable to the business community, was selected. I 
think the work there has been carried out quite satisfactorily. In New Brunswick we selected a man who had been for many years an assessor in St. John, and I believe that he has the esteem and confidence of the citizens. The chief collector in Montreal was an accountant who for many years was attached.to the Department of Justice here, a very competent man. Similarly throughout the whole country the appointments have been made, and we have received extraordinarily few complaints with 'regard to the officers administering the Business Profits War Tax.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock, Mr. D. Stewart in the Chair.



[Stage Direction]
Loan note exceeding $7,500,000, repayable on demand with Interest payable half yearly at the rate of six per centum (6 %) ; to be used to meet expenditure made or indebtedness incurred in paying interest. on securities of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway or the Grand Trunk Pacific Branch Lines Company; to meet deficit in operation of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway system and for betterments and the purchase of rolling stock; said loan to be secured by mortgage upon the undertaking of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company containing such terms and conditions as the Governor in Council may approve. The disposition of the loan to be subject to the direction of the Governor in Council. The company agree to constitute its board of directors as may be required from time to time by the Governor in Council.
Frank Oliver: Is the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White) in a -position to give any information in regard to the total -cost of raising the rails on the Grand Trunk Pacific west of Edmonton and generally in regard to the results to traffic and dam-ages to property resulting from the raising of those -rails?


William Thomas White: No; it did not occur to me that the question would arise in connection with this vote although I think it is proper for the hon. gentleman to raise it. The work of raising the -rails is in progress but it is not yet finished.
I am not in a position -to make any statement as to the cost of replacement or the damages, if any, to which my -hon. friend refers.


Frank Oliver: Would not the question
of damages to the Grand Trunk Pacific have some bearing on this item? Would there not be a serious and important pay-

ment to the Grand Trunk Pacific because of the taking up of these rails? They surely are entitled to be paid for the rails and they are entitled to payment for the loss accruing. There should be some means of .arriving at the cost.


William Thomas White: It does not occur to me that it will have any material bearing upon the amount of this estimate because the damages, if any, are quite indefinite and they may he set off for some advantage. It is obviously impossible to make a definite statement as to what the financial consequences would be of the transaction in question, and unless some definite information were had, which cannot well be had at this time, it does not occur to me that it will have a bearing on the question of the amount which Parliament should vote for the purpose of enabling the Grand Trunk Pacific to operate as a going concern during the next year.


Frank Oliver: I do not wish to discuss too intimately with the minister that point, but I would think it would have a very important bearing, first, upon the amount of money that would be at the disposal of the company during this current year, and, second, on their facilities for operation. On that point, I am in a position to inform the committee that the difference in the cost of operating is a matter of 250 tons per freight train; that is, the Grand Trunk Pacific can haul five cars of freight less with the road as it is now than it could haul with the road as it was. That is one item that is entitled to consideration. Generally speaking, the transaction is one of such a very remarkable character that I think the country is entitled to a great deal more definite information in regard to it than it has yet received. I cannot conceive of any occasion upon which it would be more appropriate to place that information before the House and the country than during the consideration of this item. Many hundreds of people have been put to great damage, inconvenience and loss, aside altogether from the railway company. Business enterprise in that locality has been seriously impeded. I am prepared to say that not a rail has gone forward to France that has been taken from that track and I am assured that not a rail will go forward to France, first because the shipping facilities are required for food and ammunition, and second, because the rails are not suitable or desired in France, they being very much heavier than are required.


William Thomas White: The information which I have is that 100 miles of rails have
been taken from the Grand Trunk Pacific and that they are either in France or on the ocean and that in the east 30 miles have been taken west of Three Rivers. As to the rails taken up on the National Transcontinental railway, they are all in France.
I may say to my hon. friend, that, while I know that this matter arises in his constituency, I have never been able to understand his attitude towards this taking up of rails. There is no one who is more loyal or has a better appreciation of this war and what it means than my hon. friend. I put to him the question: If an urgent request came from the British Government "We want rails and we want the Dominion Government to give them to us," would my hon. friend give them or would he not? That ,s the position with which we are confronted. Supposing that there is inconvenience, supposing that damage has resulted, does my hon. friend mean to say that this Government should hesitate to take up rails and send them over to France? I do not know whether my hon. friend has been at the front or not. I was at the front and I saw that if there was anything that was needed at the front last fall it was rails in order to get the guns up. What happened at Loos? What happened at other places? They might launch the fire of their artillery and destroy the trenches of the enemy but when they came to follow up they found that no headway could be made because the big guns could not be moved forward quickly enough to destroy the reserve trenches. The Germans might be driven off the first and second line trenches but it was absolutely necessary to move the guns up quickly and to do that they required heavy rails. Light rails were of no use for the purpose. They could bring up supplies of a certain character with light rails but to bring up the heavy guns they needed heavy rails. This is something that I will defend any place in Canada. It needs no defence. When we were informed that the British Government needed heavy rails we said that these rails should go forward and we proceeded to tear them up. The Minister of Railways said he would tear up half the rails in Canada to supply transport for the men at the front; so would I, and I would not hesitate about it. What does it matter about tearing up the rails, if it is going to save the lives of our noble soldiers. The boys at the front are being decimated; they are suffering great hardships, and dying, and, forsooth, because it is going to cause some inconvenience, it is said we should not forward the rails. I have not been able to understand my

hon. friend's position in this matter, because he is a loyal man, and has suffered much in, this -war. He knows the situation at the front, as well as any man in this House, and upon my word, I cannot understand the attitude he takes in regard to the matter of rails.


Frank Oliver: I am equally at a loss to understand the position my hon. friend the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Railways have taken. When this matter was up for consideration before, I raised the question as to why these rails were taken from Jasper pass, when rails could have been obtained much nearer the Atlantic coast, and I was told the reason they were taken, from there was because they were of the .same boring as the rails at the front. The minister made the statement that it was necessary to take the Grand Trunk Pacific rails instead of the Canadian Northern rails lying alongside of them, because there was a different boring for the bolts, which, by means of the fishplates, connected the ends of the rails. I say, on the information I have from France, and on the common sense that any ordinary man has, that the reason given is no reason at all. It is nothing more nor less than nonsense, and I think such an argument should not be advanced in the House of Commons by a responsible minister of the Crown. In the first place, these rails were taken from the Jasper pass, 2,500 miles from the Atlantic seaboard, when they had just as good a right to be taken, and could have been taken, from within 200 or 300 miles of the Atlantic seaboard. In the second place, they were taken from the Grand Trunk Pacific in the Jasper pass, when, alongside, was the Canadian Northern, with identically the same weight of rails, the same kind of rails, lying on a road not nearly as well graded as the Grand Trunk Pacific, and with steeper grades. They were taken off the Grand Trunk Pacific, instead of being taken off the Canadian Northern under the pretense-I say pretense-that, because there was half an inch difference in the location of the borings, therefore it was not convenient to use them in France. I say that, in view of such arguments being put before the House, supposedly by a serious Government, I am entitled to call in question the good faith of the Government in this matter, and to say that these Tails were not taken up and sent to France because they were needed in France more than any other rail.


William Thomas White: Why were they taken up?


Frank Oliver: Because it was the policy of t/his Government to wreck the enterprise, and for no other reason. Has the Government ever laid on the table of the House the request of the British Government for these rails? No, they have not.


Mr. BRADBURY:: Why should they be sent there, if they were not needed?


Frank Oliver: I am at a loss to understand why this Government does certain things. They have accounted for what they have done by talking nonsense.


George Henry Bradbury: My hon. friend should not say it is nonsense.'


Frank Oliver: I am saying it is nonsense, when they say that they had to take Grand Trunk rails, instead of Canadian Northern rails, because there was half an inch difference in the borings.


George Henry Bradbury: That is an important thing;


Frank Oliver: I have information from the front that they link up all kinds of different rails.


George Perry Graham: They do.


Frank Oliver: And so they can. ' My common sense tells me that for work at the front they do not want 80 pound steel, if they can get 60 pound, or lighter steel. Any man's common sense would tell him that, and when the Government undertakes to tell this House that they took up those rails because they had to, and because it was in the interest of the Allies fighting the battles in France, they are not doing justice to the intelligence of the House or of the country, and when I ask him what the cost is going to be-


Mr. HANNA:: Does my hon. friend not know that the Railway Commission ordered those rails to be taken up at that particular place? The Railway Commission should know what is best to do in this matter.
"Mr. OLIVER: I do not acknowledge allegiance to the Railway Commission. It is a creature of this Parliament-of this Government.


Adelbert Edward Hanna: They would be very much obliged to you for that statement.


Frank Oliver: I would be very glad to
make that statement anywhere. This Parliament is not subject to the Railway Com-
SEPTEMBER 3, i917
mission; the Railway Commission should be subject to this Parliament. That commission has no authority from this Parliament to give its opinion as to where the rails should be taken up. They were taken up on the responsibility of the Government of this country.


Adelbert Edward Hanna: Does my hon. friend not think that the Railway Commission was a pretty fair authority to state where the rails should be taken up?


Frank Oliver: The advice of the Railway Commission i6 no doubt quite good in many respects.


Adelbert Edward Hanna: Absolutely.


Frank Oliver: But that commission was not appointed-and it is no part of their duty-to advise this Government as to wheie it should take up rails. The Railway Commission has certain important functions to perform, and I believe it performs those functions very well, but that is no reason why they should perform functions they never were appointed to perform, and which they are no better qualified to perform than my hon. friend or myself. If my hon. friend saw his constituents practically driven out of house and home by the action of this Government, and set afoot- on the roadside, after they had spent most of their lives in a certain locality, he might take a different view of the matter.


Adelbert Edward Hanna: Not under the circumstances.
(Mr. OLIVER: I think he would.


William F. Carroll: Did the hon. gentleman say the rails were not sent to France?


Frank Oliver: My information is that
they have not been sent to France. The minister says they have been sent there, and I am bound to take his word. If they have been sent to France, I can only say that, if it is possible to transport 80 pound rails by the shipload across the Atlantic to France, there cannot surely be such trouble about getting food across the Atlantic as has been represented.


George Henry Bradbury: It is just as important to have the rails as the guns.


Frank Oliver: It is important to have
rails, but not as important to have those particular rails. There are other rails besides those in service through the Jasper Pass, and I say the false pretenses of the matter are that my hon. friend took the rails from the best graded road, and left
them on the worst graded road, lying right alongside. What difference did it make to the British Government whether these rails be taken off the best graded road or off the poorest road, when they were the same kind of rails?


George Henry Bradbury: There would be no
difference, if th y were the same kind of rails.


Frank Oliver: They were the same kind of steel, and everything the same, except that the borings for the bolts which hold the fishplate were in a little different place. My hon. friend should know the boring for the fishplate is not an important mechanical performance, and, as a matter of fact, my information is that [they link up all kinds of rails over there, and that they must do so, or they could never get along. The thing is too absurd for words, and when such a statement is made to this House in a serious way, I say it discredits the whole attitude of the Government in regard to the matter, and when I ask the ministers a plain simple question as to what this performance of theirs is costing either the country, the British Government or the Grand Trunk Pacific, they can tell me nothing about it. They say that it is a matter of no importance; I beg to assure them that it is a matter of very great importance. Is it not a matter of importance that men have been left stranded in the wilderness as these men have; that enterprises in the Jasper Park have been left practically in the air by the taking up of these rails? This Government has a right to consider the interests of the people. My hon. friend asks whether I am interested in the winning of the war. I think that I am in that just as much as he is.


William Thomas White: I admit that.


Frank Oliver: We are not arguing that point. Surely we have a right to hold the opinion that these rails could have been got nearer the Atlantic seaboard than the Jasper pass; that the rails that were taken were not rails the removal of which would do the least harm to .the country or its work; that, the transport of food across the ocean being as important as it is, those rails could have been got in England or in France more conveniently than in -'Canada. Why does my hon. friend not lay on the table of the House the demand of the British Government for these rails? That has not yet been produced. I w-ant to see that demand; I want to see if they asked for 80-pound rails off the Grand Trunk Pacific.


Mr. MORPHY:: Has communication not been afforded in some other way in places where rails have been lifted?


Frank Oliver: So far as the Transcontinental traffic is concerned, yes. But I have already informed the committee that this was done at a cost of five cars of freight less each way. That is, by reason of the taking of Grand Trunk Pacific rails instead of Canadian Northern rails, trains will haul five cars of freight less each way. That is one result.


Adelbert Edward Hanna: Do they not haul all the freight they get?


Frank Oliver: Certainly, hut the easier the grade, the more economically the freight is handled. After all, with a railroad as with everything else, it is a matter of profit on the work done. My hon. friend must realize that where men have settled down in the occupation of land, houses or property in a certain locality because the railroad is there, the pulling up of the rails wipes out the value of their time and investment. What is going to be done with regard to these people? Are they to be paid damages for the losses that they have suffered? If they are, who is going to pay those damages? Is the British Government to he wolfed because of this mismanagement and waste? Surely the British Government never bargained for any such transaction as that. I have letters from a school district asking what is to become of the school debentures raised in the town of Tollerton, a town that has gone out of existence because of the lifting of rails. These are matters that the Government of Canada must seriously consider. Remember that we are here for the Government of Canada, not for the Government of France or the Government of Britain.


William Thomas White: I beg my hon. friend's pardon; we are here for the Government of Canada, but we are here also for the British Empire and trying to win this war. My hon. friend puts forth the argument that this Government, in taking up the rails on the National Transcontinental and the Grand Trunk Pacific, was actuated by a desire to ruin the Grand Trunk Pacific rather than a desire to get forward the rails required by the British Government. Does he suppose that any man in this committee who has a remnant of reason left will accept that argument? Does he think that the people of the country will accept it for a moment? My hon. friend says that without any request from

the British Government, simply in order to destroy the Grand Trunk Pacific, the enterprise of the late Government, we took up these rails and sent them to France. Does my hon. friend think that he is addressing himself to men devoid of reason-because that is what his argument implies. The British Government needed rails to get up the heavy guns. They wanted 80-lb. rails, and they so specified. We sent them 80-lb. rails; in order not to embarrass railways in Canada other than Government railways, we took them in the first instance from the National Transcontinental railway. When we had sent them that kind of rail they wanted us to send the same kind in the further quantities that they were anxious to secure. We then asked Sir Henry Drayton, chairman of the Board of Railway Commissioners of Canada, to advise us where in Canada that particular kind of rail could be taken up with the least public inconvenience. What else could the Government do? How could the Government have acted more fairly? To what other tribunal should we have applied? The Board of Railway Commissioners is a non-partisan tribunal, responsible not to the Dominion Government, but to this Parliament. On their advice these rails were taken upon the Grand Trunk Pacific. My hon. friend knows that the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Northern lines parallel each other in this particular district of which he is speaking; he knows that a composite road was made there. We made the best of the situation in order that we might send forward these rails which were so urgently required and at the same time have due regard to the public interest. My hon. friend speaks of the practicability of joining 60-lb. and 80-lb. rails, or 80-lb. and 40-lb. rails in France. That could be done near the seaboard by the use of hand forged fish plates; there is plenty of time; there is no such inconvenience as there is nearer the front. But when the men have to work under fire, the authorities want rails that can be joined by standard fish plates. That is the reason why, having got 300 miles of rails from the National Transcontinental, they wanted other rails from the Grand Trunk Pacific, of the same weight and the same borings, in order that standard fish plates might be used near the front, where the men work under the greatest possible inconvenience and danger. There it is necessary that these rails should be joined up quickly in order that the great guns may be sent to the front to follow up any advance movement that may be made.

My hon. friend's attitude in this matter is the most extraordinary that I have ever seen taken by any man in this House. He solemnly gets up and puts forward the suggestion that we have not sent these rails over to assist the men at the front, or in response to the urgent request of the British Government instigated by an urgent demand on the part of the eommander in chief at the front. He says: that Is not what you were doing; your sole object was to destroy the Grand Trunk Pacific; you have acted like a lot of mad men in tearing up rails that were not wanted at the front. Without exception, that is the most preposterous statement I have ever heard made in this House. My hon. friend says: that we took up the rails from the Grand Trunk Pacific, and that means that we took away a part of the railway itself which is covered by mortgage in favour of its bondholders, and is a part of the capital investment of the company. I said that this matter had not any bearing upon the item under consideration; I still say that, because the replacement of rails means the replacement of capital. In this estimate we are dealing not with capital, but with the question of deficit on operations and interest upon underlying securities. This estimate is to furnish the Grand Trunk Pacific with $7,500,000, in order, first, to meet the deficit on operation, and, second, to meet the fixed charges for the year. Whatever sum is given the Grand Trunk Pacific in respect of rails taken up will simply be replacement of capital to that extent. As to claims for damages on the part of those who may hold that they have been inconvenienced or damaged by the taking up of the rails, that is a matter for consideration.
I cannot say offhand here to-night how much money is involved one way or the other. In estimating what damage, if any, has been sustained by the Grand Trunk Pacific, there would have to be a consideration as to the value of the rails and the replacement, and, on the other hand, any advantage the railway company might gain as against the disadvantages of which my hon. friend has spoken. I have not passed an opinion upon the matter, and it is not possible for any one to do so offhand. My hon. friend has gone beyond himself in conjuring up fantastic reasons for the action of the Government, which was taken at the urgent request of the British Government in order to meet a very pressing need at the front. He says that we have not placed the papers upon the table. In connection with the war, there are hundreds of papers which we cannot place upon the table of this House, which are of the most secret and confidential character, involving wants and needs of the Imperial Government, disclosing a situation of which they are willing to make this Government aware, but which they would not like to be published to the world. My hon. friend surely would not ask that there should be laid upon the table secret documents that might give to the enemy information of a kind that would be of value to him. My hon. friend, I am sure, would be the last man to suggest that. I cannot help thinking that my hon. friend has been carried away by his partisanship in this matter to such an extent that he feels justified in making these wholly fallacious charges against the Government, which is acting in the utmost good faith in this transaction.


Frank Oliver: If the Government has acted in good faith its arguments do not lead one to that conclusion. This vote is for an advance to the Grand Trunk Pacific railroad, taking security upon the property of that road. The advance of last year was the same. Surely the security is deteriorated by the removal of the rails on 130 miles of the road.


William Thomas White: Not if they are replaced and the damage repaired.


Mr. COCHRANE:: They have been replaced.


Frank Oliver: I am afraid my hon. friend is not well informed.


Francis Cochrane: I know I am right.


Frank Oliver: I would say, if I would
not be out of order, that I know my hon. friend is not right, because, as a matter of fact, the rails on the Grand Trunk Pacific have been partially, but not altogether, replaced. My information is that the difference between the haulage possibilities of the Grand Trunk to-day and what it was before it was deprived of those rails is five cars per train.


Francis Cochrane: That is not true.


Frank Oliver: Very well, that will have to rest. My hon. friend and I cannot arrange that now. My statement will have to stand as a statement of fact for the present.


Francis Cochrane: It is a statement of
yours, not of fact.


Frank Oliver: That is quite satisfactory to me. It is very conclusive on the point.

Of all the arguments that have been put forward on behalf of this very remarkable transaction, the most absurd is that which has just been put forward by the Minister of Finance as the reason why the documents have not been laid upon the Table, namely, because of the special request of the British Government, because of their secret character, because they might give information of value to the enemy. I appeal to the committee if that is not more absurd-if I am not out of order in using the word-than the assertion that it was necessary to take the Grand Trunk Pacific rails because the Transcontinental Tails had already been taken. It is not good enough for this Government, charged with the responsibility of governing the people of this country and protecting their interests, to shelter themselves, first behind the British Government, and secondly behind the Bailway Commission. There is no power nor authority that this Government is entitled to shelter itself behind in regard to matters of administration touching the affairs of the people of Canada. Let there be no mistake on that point. When people are dispossessed of their property, as they have been in my constituency-


George Henry Bradbury: How many of the hon. member's constituents are affected?


Frank Oliver: I could not say how many, but it does not make any difference if there is only one. His rights are just as sacred as the rights of any other man in any other part of this country, as the rights of any corporation or company in this country. Those people have a right to be protected, and if they have not been protected, if their rights have been thrown aside by the lifting of the rails, then they are entitled to compensation without undue delay. The 'Government, having made up its mind to do as it has done, having the reasons it says it has for its action, has a right to deal promptly and effectively with the people whom it has dispossessed of the value of their property. The enthusiasm of the Minister of Finance for the winning of the war by tearing up the rails out in the Jasper pass reminds me very much of the late Artemus Ward, who, at the time of the American Civil War, declared that he was for the winning of the war even if it cost him all his wife's relations. The minister was willing to tear up the rails out in Jasper pass. There are, however, rails very much nearer the Atlantic coast than the Jasper pass is. Why did ne not tear up a few of them? There are

rails between the good city of Toronto and the town of Sudbury where there are two parallel tracks. Those rails are much nearer the Atlantic coast than is the Jasper pass, but the minister did not touch a rail there. There are three railway lines between Ottawa and the city of Toronto, but none of those rails were raised. I would like to see a little even-handed justice in this matter. If the needs of the war demand that rails shall be taken, why certainly let them be taken, but I do not see why they should all be taken from my constituency to the loss and damage of my constituents, when other people in other parts of the country are left free of any damage, while they shout their patriotism to the four winds of heaven. They can afford to be patriotic if it does not cost them anything, or when it costs only the people out in the prairie West something. That sort of patriotism does not appeal to me, and it certainly will never prevent me from standing up for the interest of my constituents in, this House as long as I have a seat in it. I am willing to stand by the war, by the country, and by patriotism, but I want some of the other men who are doing so much shouting to do a little of the sacrificing also.


William Thomas White: In order that the committee may have further information as to this matter, I read this extract from the Order in Council which has been laid on the table of the House:
Further, the minister has had the question ol this further trackage required referred to Sir Henry Drayton, Chief Commissioner of the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada, and he is in receipt of a communication from Sir Henry recommending that a further 300 miles of rails be obtained from the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway, partly from that portion of their lines running through the Yellow-head Pass which closely parallels the Canadian Northern, and partly from some of the main line track at other points. The latter to be replaced by other rails.
Then the minister proceeds with his recommendation. There has also been placed on the table of the House a letter from the [DOT]Comptroller of Railways enclosing a report from A. C. Henry of the engineering staff, covering his. investigation ini connection with the taking up of the rails of the Grand Trunk Pacific railway through the Yellow-head pass, in which the comptroller says:
The plan proposed permits of the salving of all the Grand Trunk Pacific rails through the construction of a composite line, made up from the roadbed of the Canadian Northern Railway for 128 miles, and the balance from the Grand Trunk Pacific roadbed, for 77 miles.
After referring to the details of the composite line as shown on the sketch plan at-

tached to the report, which is dated June 12, 1917, he says:
The only disturbance to settlers of any moment is on that part of the Canadian Northern line between Ansell and Leaman, and the reasons for this and the proposed method of dealing with the settlers, is fully set out in Mr. Henry's report.
The work of track lifting is proceeding with the utmost despatch. All section men on both lines and all local labour available, are being utilized, and in addition, we have 150 soldiers from construction battalions, detailed by the Department of Militia and Defence, who arrived at Jasper on the 4th instant.
The first of the rails will be in transit to Three Rivers this week, and unless some unforeseen contingency arises to retard the work, we hope to have all rails in transit by the end of July.
My horn, friend has made the statement that these rails are not in France nor on their way to France. The Comptroller of Railways says he has reports every day as to the position of these rails in their movement towards the front. The statement I have made is absolutely correct. Mr. Henry, the assistant engineer, says in his report:
In my view the general allocation of the composite line, having regard to the fact that rails of Grand Trunk Pacific type are required for shipment overseas, is the only feasible one. Under the proposed arrangement, all the coal mines in operation along both lines are served and the least possible disturbance and inconvenience caused to the settlers tributary to both lines. In addition, there can be no doubt that the single composite line proposed, if properly operated, will be able to handle the traffic of both lines on this section for many years, at a much lower operating expenditure than would be involved in the maintenance and operation of both lines between these points.
These documents are of record, having been laid on the Table. I have no manner of objection to my hon. friend getting up and talking in favour of his constituents; that is an almost universal practice in this House. But I do object to his putting forward in this House the assertion that this Government tore up the rails on the Grand Trunk Pacific, not for the purpose of meeting the request of the British Government or of assisting military operations at the front, but solely with the idea of destroying the Grand Trunk Railway system, which was brought infy existence under the late Government.
'Mr. GRAHAM:	I fully agree with the
hon. member for Edmonton in saying that the reason given as to the fish plates and the borings is not very strong. The fish plates would have gone with the rails that went over; the readjusting of two joints is the only change that would have had to be made. All the switches and branch lines
at the front are not of the heavy weight rail. Any man who has studied railway construction at all knows it is perfectly laughable to make such a fuss about fish plates.
I see in the Grand Trunk Pacific statement that of this $7,494,760.78 only about $2,500,000 is guaranteed by the Dominion Government. I think it is only fair the committee should understand that the amount of money that is being granted to pay the interest of the Grand Trunk Pacific is not all on account of bonds guaranteed *by the Dominion Government. Out of the total amount of $7,494,760.78 only about $2,500,000 is under Dominion guarantee.
If I am not mistaken, of this $2,500,000,
[DOT] $1,655,000 is payable on the contract by the Dominion Government on the mountain section seven years from the 1st of January, 1916. So if we deduct that $1,655,000 from the $2,500,000, we would have less 'than $1,000,000 guaranteed by the federal authorities. The balance of this amount is made up of guarantees from the provinces ol Alberta and Saskatchewan.
I notice, too, that there is an estimated operating loss on the steamship company oi $100,000. It had slipped my mind that the steamship company was in this transaction, but it appears that the Grand Trunk Pacific Steamship Company running from Vancouver to Prince Rupert is a part of this agreement, and we have here an amount to assist in making up the operating loss on this line of steamers.
Then there is another very interesting item here-not providing, of course, for interest-namely, that the Grand Trunk Pacific with its branch lines has an operating surplus of $1,100,000. I do not want to make any very lengthy remarks to-night, because I think we discussed this question at great length in connection with the Canadian Northern Railway system, but the entire railway situation in Canada, particularly in the West, is so bound up that that could not be avoided. Thd Grand Trunk Pacific, however, in its present condition can never hope to be made a paying institution, for it is obvious that the object in view in the construction of the Grand Trunk Pacific line has not been carried out. I frankly admit that it was a matter of frequent contention between the late Mr. Hays, president of the Grand Trunk Pacific, and myself, that it did not construct a sufficient number of branch lines as it - went along with their main line. Great hopes were entertained of a steamship line between Prince Rupert and the Orient, but those hopes have not materialized, and the

Grand Trunk Pacific system will never be made the great success it was intended to be until that steamship connection is made. I do not wish to detract from the merits of any harbour, but I think there is no better harbour in the world than Prince Rupert, and the optimism of the Grand Trunk Pacific people and the Grand Trunk as well as of the Government was bound up largely in connection with the Orient, from where it was hoped to get through traffic for the Grand Trunk Pacific via Prince Rupert. But so long as we have not got that line of steamships to connect up the Orient with the Grand Trunk Pacific, so long will the Grand Trunk Pacific be merely a local line. At the present time it runs from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert, with no connection of its own at either end. The whole line from Winnipeg east belongs to the Transcontinental.
The haul from Winnipeg east belongs to the Transcontinental, and even the Grand Trunk Pacific has no way of getting to the lakes now over its own connections. It is shut off absolutely at Winnipeg. I have great faith, though, in the future of this line of railway. The Government has handed over to the Senate a Bill providing for the taking over of the Canadian Northern railway and will be in a position, perhaps, to discuss the question of branch lines in a more favourable way than heretofore. There are two or three things needed to make this enterprise a success. In the first place, I believe that steamship connection with the East is absolutely necessary, because one of the great objects of the line will be unattainable if we do not have that steamship line. In the second place, I am inclined to think provision must be made for the construction of a greater number of branch lines, particularly in the prairie country and perhaps in some of the valleys of the mountains. As to the Grand Trunk Pacific running a line to Vancouver, there is now a line projected and partially constructed over which there has been a great deal of difficulty, and I would not dare discuss that. But with the Canadian Northern railway in the position it will be now, in the hands of the Government, perhaps some of this difficulty might be obviated. The great object of the Grand Trunk Pacific was to get a through fine via Prince Rupert to the Orient. A question was raised by the Prime Minister the other night about the co-operative administration of roads. If he meant that all the fines are to be under one ownership, it would be a big question to discuss. My 
own view is that there are a thousand and one things to be considered in addition to rates, and that without competition you would lose a great deal of the benefit, or rather you would fail to derive benefit that you would have with competition. Take, for example, car distribution. While we have an Act dealing with this subject and many regulations covering it, the fact remains that laws and regulations do not operate as advantageously as competition. A shipper between here and Toronto informed me that now that he has three fines of railway passing his town he has no difficulty in getting a car at any time. His shipping with competition is much more advantageous than with one fine. The Board of Railway Commissioners would say: You must have a car at a certain time and the rate must be fixed at a certain amount, but the little details that competition brings do not come to the users of a line without competition. I believe that some method could be devised by which we could arrange for the use of fines by roads other than the owners of those lines in a better way than we have been able to do heretofore. The Canadian Pacific Railway is very much crowded in certain parts of the West, and has been discussing double tracking a large mileage. It has already expended many millions of dollars for this purpose. I see no reason why provision could not be made to relieve the congestion on any one line by operating part of its traffic over another parallel fine on which the traffic was not so heavy, so that the business of the people would not be retarded, because the people of the country have built these roads to a 9 p.m. very large extent. The Prime [DOT] Minister spoke about co-operative management. I think it would not need co-operative management exactly, but certain terms could be laid down under which one road would use the rails of another and a car could be handed over by one company to another on definite terms laid down by the commissioner. In this way two parallel roads could be used as a double track system with great benefit to the people.
As to the future, I have confidence that the railway mileage of Canada is not too great. It may be too great for the production of Canada at the present time, but not for the productiveness of Canada, and it will be for the people and Parliament of Canada to see that, when the war is over, we have the people to develop all our western country; and this railway mileage will

not be excessive for the productiveness of our country when we have people on the land, for with the productiveness of the land will come the productiveness of all our industries, because, after all, our future is bound up not in any one thing but in many things. I received information to-day about a mining proposition that seems to have very great prospects. I was asked if it would be possible to get the Government to build a branch line to a certain mining development. My advice was that the Government would probably be from Missouri just now and would have to be shown before extending mileage, but if in any part of Canada there was a development for the good of Canada, Parliament would be ready to vote money for any reasonable proposition of that kind if it were a paying one.
So far as the Dominion is concerned, we are not paying this money so much for securities guaranteed by the Government as to aid the projects of other guarantors of the securities, and in this connection I may be pardoned for saying that I have always had a rather kindly feeling for the old Grand Trunk as one of the pioneer railways of Canada. The Grand Trunk is committed to the Grand Trunk Pacific very heavily in guarantees, and I believe that the Govern,-ment at the present time could not do else but take such step as this unless we are going to embarrass the Grand Trunk and place it in a position which I still maintain we should not allow our roads to get into at the present time, as our own credit is bound up with theirs to a larger degree than some people seem to realize or admit. While I realize the financial situation, I am not pessimistic at all as to the future of Canada and its railway projects. I believe that in years to come, when the great development of our country is to take place after the war and we have to face all these situations, the people of Canada will be capable of facing all these difficulties. We all believe that the resourcefulness of Canada is equal to any demands that may be made upon her.
It will not be long, I hope, before peace will come and we will have an opportunity of arranging our financial affairs so that we can proceed with the development of the country, which for the time being has been retarded, but which has only been checked and not stopped. The way in which they have acquitted themselves has shown the people of the world that the men produced on this half of the North American continent are worthy of their sires, and what they
have accomplished and will still accomplish in their fight for freedom is indicative of what they can'do when peace comes in the development of their own country.
Item passed.
To increase the pension of Mrs. Margaret Johnson Brooke from $1.25 to $1.75 per diem, further amount required, $182.50.


William Thomas White: I will read the following explanation, which is- signed by the Prime Minister:
Mrs. Margaret Johnson Brooke is the widow of the late Staff-Sergeant Brooke who was drowned while on duty in 1903. She was granted a pension of 75 cents per diem, representing one half of the pay of her deceased husband-


George Perry Graham: Carried.
National Gallery of Canada-further amount required, $10,000.


William Thomas White: Our policy has been to cut down these grants as much as possible since the outbreak of the war. At the first revision of the estimates, after the war broke out, this grant was cut down from $100,000 to $25,000. In the main estimates of this year the grant of $25,000 for 1917 was cut down to $8,000. In view of the fact that this amount is adequate only for salaries and expenses, leaving nothing to purchase the works of Canadian artists, this $10,000 is being provided for that purpose. The war has been very hard indeed upon Canadian artists, some of whom are engaged in painting for the National Gallery. The cutting down has been very substantial, from $100,000 to the present amount, and I hope the committee will take a fair view of this and grant this further sum, having regard to the important woTk of some very worthy Canadian artists.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: What kind of paintings are the Canadian artists engaged upon? It seems to me that if they are engaged upon ordinary everyday paintings, the country's money might better be spent in attempting to have these artists put on canvas something that would perpetuate the valour of the Canadian soldiers who are fighting at the front. I fancy the battle of St. Julien, o<r the second battle of Ypres or the battle of Langemarck would be very good subjects. Some such pictures as these would be desirable acquisitions for (the National Gallery. But, if they are going to paint orchards, flower beds and rivers I would oppose the vote.


Frank Oliver: What artists painted the war or military scenes that are on view

in the gallery on the fourth floor of this building?


William Thomas White: I think it was
Homer Watson.


Frank Oliver: Is he still at large?


William Thomas White: As to these particular paintings, to which my hon. friend refers, I will not give any opinion to the committee but I would say that Mr. Homer Watson is one of our most distinguished artists. My hon. friend from North Perth (Mr. Morphy) suggested that some of our artists might be engaged in painting battle scenes. If you take a man out of his particular sphere he is apt to accomplish the opposite to an artistic result. I do not know whether we have any artists in Canada who are capable of painting battle scenes but we have some very deserving artists and I think that even at a time like this we should not overlook those members of the community, who mean a great deal to the country from the aesthetic point of view, who have to make their living like the rest of us and whose numbers I should personally like to see	increased	rather	than diminished as the nation goes forward. We	must nolt 'think,	although we
are sometimes prone to do it, that the only votes which should go through are those for dredging or public works. If we are to be what we expect to be we must keep the light burning in the realms of literature, art and science.
Mr. G-RAHAM: Does the minister think that at this time it would be inflicting any great hardship on our artists if we did not have this vote? We are all more or less affected with financial stringency and we have been willing parties to asking any person who- makes an income to contribute a good deal of it towards carrying on the war. Under those conditions, does the minister think that the people who want to be taxed to carry on a war would be willing to undergo the same operation even to encourage art at this particular time? The encouragement of art at the proper time, of course, is very laudable. At this particular time we are being asked to restrict our appetites, to control our food consumption and to contribute of any little means we may have in OTder that the financial condition in Canada may be kept equal to the demands upon if. In addition to that we are asked to send away our sons to fight an enemy who is a real enemy. Under these conditions does the minister (think we ought to expend money

for this purpose, no matter how laudable it would be under ordinary circumstances?


William Thomas White: I wrs influenced by the same view that has moved my hon. friend to express himself as he has. I think his criticism would be amply justified if we had maintained the original vote. This country has -been in the habit of voting $100,000 a year to encourage Canadian art. This is not for the purpose solely of giving Canadian artists work. This National gallery lends pictures to all Ithe cities throughout Canada, especially, I understand, in the West, so that the work is really a national work. The vote for the year preceding the war was $100,000, last year it was cut down to $25,000, and this year the amount placed in the estimates was $8,000, but it was thought it would have a serious effect on the artists and sculptors, and it was decided to place an [additional $10,000 in the estimates, which will make the total vote this year $18,000. I do not like to ask Parliament to spend money for anything other than practical purposes, especially during the war, but I feel a certain kindness towards men engaged in art and science. They do more for the nation than we realize, and I think we should be generous, rather than otherwise, with them. This is not a large amount. It is the amount barely necessary to take care of commissions which have already been given, and it will not have any appreciable effect on military efforts during the war. The money is paid out to artists. Some meritorious cases have been brought to my attention since the war broke out. We have some notable sculptors in this country, men who have brought credit to Canada by their work. Some of them have devoted their lives to the profession, and the war has caused a -stoppage of orders. We have been gradually slowing down in the matter of this vote, hut we think we have given fair consideration to these artists and sculptors.


Hugh Boulton Morphy: It is quite true that the amount is insignificant, -and hardly worth while talking about, 'but there seems to be a principle underlying it, and if the minister by governmental action is going to take care of all the individuals in Canada who have -suffered by the war he will require a Large appropriation. Our pension bill is going to be very heavy, and there is a continuous cry-and I think a proper cry- that more should be done for the returned soldier, for those who are entitled to pensions, for everybody who has suffered through the war. I wish to- refer to a case

in my own' constituency, and I am sorry the hon. member for St. Antoine (Sir Herbert Ames), who is head of the Patriotic Fund is not here. I refer to the case of a woman whose husband was killed or disabled at the front. She did not apply for separation allowance until just lately, and the Patriotic Fund authorities of the province refused to give her any separation allowance, because she did not apply in time, and they claim they are hard up for money. Every fund that is being distributed for the benefit of the soldi ns is short of money at the present time. The principle I object to in this item is the specific favour to some people who cannot show that they deserve anything at the hands of the country, except for a sentimental reason. Are these artists fighting at the front? Are they of the proper age to go and fight? Who are they? I can conceive that there are some young budding artists who have gone to the front and are fighting, and I would not object to paying those men. The Kaiser sent artists to the battlefields to portray the valour of his troops. But when a widow is refused separation allowance from the Patriotic Fund, because, forsooth, she did not apply in time, it is coming to a pretty pass. She could not even get the back pay of her husband. I do not believe we should be extravagant in our allowances, unless it is advisable in the national interest. These artists are doing good1 work in the. development of art, and elevating the public mind to a higher plane, but just now I would say that we should not vote this money.


Mr. PARDEE:: I desire to endorse the sentiments of my hon. friend from North Perth (Mr. Morphy). Not long ago we had the argument that, if the income tax were passed, the rich man would not give to the Patriotic Fund. I have one case in mind in regard to which I had correspondence with the authorities in regard to a separation allowance. The authorities did not know that tney could make tfie allowance, and so forth. It appears to me that, as far as it is possible, the Government should just pare down to the very bones the financial necessities of this country. I have some regard for artists and sculptors and so on, but when we get down to the real necessities, why should1 artists and sculptors have to be taken care of more than men who, by reason of the war perhaps, have suffered just as much as they have? These men have as much right to be considered, but not on the lines of aestheticism, as suggested by the Minister of Finance. Why should the artist be taken care of any more than other men who have suffered? We know that there are thousands of cases of men and women, who, by reason of this war, have been deprived of a livelihood, and many women have not only been deprived of a livelihood, hut have suffered a great hardship by the loss of relatives and helpmeets. After all, when we go out and talk to the people and say, "Now, we must have thrift here, and production there, the country is in this state, and in that state, and the very worst is liable to happen to us," I do not know why the artists should get a grant of $18,000 out of the hard earned money of the people. These times, when we are talking of hundreds of millions of dollars $18,000 may not look large, but every little helps, and, so far as I am concerned, I cannot see that this vote is necessary. .These men have taken up this line; perhaps I am not inclined to regard it as poetically as the Minister of Finance, but the artists and sculptors have chosen their profession the same as you or I chose our professions, whether it be law or medicine or anything else. If these artists are deprived of their livelihood, they are in no worse position than thousands of other men in the country, and I do not know why the taxpayers of the country should go down in their pockets to recoup them. It appears to me the item should be struck out.


Frank Oliver: You might do this as a compromise-


George Perry Graham: Imagine Oliver compromising !


Frank Oliver: -give each of the artists a military pension, on the basis of total disablement, with the understanding that they should not paint any more pictures until the war is over.


William Thomas White: If the minister is influenced by politicians, that is one thing; but it is not a charge against a minister that he is influenced by considerations advanced by those who are interested in scientific studies. The remuneration of the men who carry on this work is very small; they work unselfishly and in a disinterested way. Certainly, while I find very little difficulty in standing out against the representations made by the politicians, so to speak, I do find a good deal of difficulty in standing out against the scientific men, men from universities, men engaged in literary or artistic work.



Public Works-chargeable to capital-Ottawa Eastern Departmental Block - new fireproof roof, etc.-revote, $125,000.


George Perry Graham: The minister was going to explain this item the other night.


John Dowsley Reid: I did explain it. The amount is a revote, and is intended to be applied towards fireproofing the old portion of the Eastern Block and rearranging the offices on the top floor.


William Pugsley: Surely this item ought to be dropped. There is no intention of spending the money this year.


John Dowsley Reid: If it is at all possible, this work should be undertaken in the interests of the protection of the Eastern Block. The officials thought that we would not be justified in dropping the item, and under the circumstances I should be glad if the committee would allow it to pass.


William Pugsley: This amount was voted last year; it has not been spent. If there was good reason for not spending the money last year there is greater reason for not spending it this year. Last year the Minister of Finance was able to borrow money at 5 per cent; this year he is obliged to pay 8 per cent. This roof is probably the same one that has been there for many years; no fire is likely to occur from the outside.
The roof does not require to be fireproofed; protection against fire should be afforded inside the building. I have no doubt that oare is exercised in that respect; the police are in constant attendance. When I was minister, work was undertaken for creating a thoroughly fireproof section in the * wing where the valuables are kept. In view of the fact that there ie a war on, and that it is difficult to get money, and that heavy taxes aTe being imposed upon the people, this vote ought not to be pressed.


John Dowsley Reid: The part of the building to which my hon. friend refers is not fireproof at the present time; the roof is a wooden one, and it is necessary to rearrange the whole top floor. The Parliament Buildings were there for many years, yet they did not burn down. The officials tell me that the work on the Eastern Block should he proceeded with if at all possible; it should have been proceeded with last year.


William Pugsley: Is the roof of the Eastern Block similar to that on the Western Block?


John Dowsley Reid: No, the Western Block had a new roof put on after the fire in that building. The Eastern Block is the only one
fSir Thomas White.]
now that is not fireproof-the new Parliament Building will have a fireproof roof.
Contribution to aid in carrying on the work of the Astronomical Society-further amount required, $1,000.


William Thomas White: Tire Royal Astronomical Society of Canada is a national society and has centres and groups in Toronto,, Montreal, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Regina, Victoria and other important cities in the Dominion. Headquarters are at Toronto: Albert D. Watson, president; J. R. Collins, general secretary. The grant from the Government is used for the purpose of publishing the journal of the society, which disseminates not only articles of scientific interest written by Canadians, but also the best from journals published in other countries. The editors are Professor Chant, Dr. Plaskett and Sir Frederick Stupart. Without the Dominion grant, it is stated, the journal would have to he suspended altogether. The University of Toronto also supports the work of the Society by a small grant. The grant to the society last year was $2,000; I cut it in two for the 1917-18 main Estimates. However, more representations were made to me with regard to the voting of the further $1,000 than were made in respect to any other item in the estimates. It is not the easiest thing in the world to cut down these grants. Representations were made to me from very many quarters indeed that the work of this society, though it might not appeal to the public in general, was really very necessary and desirable scientific work. Takipg everything into consideration, I thought that we had better make the usual grant of $2,000.


Frank Oliver: This is certainly an occasion when our idols are being shattered. We look to the Minister of Finance to stand as adamant in maintaining a policy of economy, consistent with efficiency. I am sure the committee will feel pained to hear the confession my hon. friend makes tonight and to learn that the treasury is not as we believed it was, founded upon principles of security and economy.
Vancouver harbour improvements, $1117000.


John Dowsley Reid: This appropriation is for a new shed on the wharf at Vancouver. The Public Works Department have built a wharf at Vancouver, and a large elevator has been built on that wharf. One shed has already been built on one side, and now the Public Works Department are building another one exactly the same. The shed

built last year is filled to capacity with general merchandise, and as a consequence business offered to the Harbour Commissioners had to be refused. As a remedy for these conditions they ask that another shed be erected. The chief engineer of the Department of Public Works, in a report dated March 29, 1917, recommends that a wooden freight shed 900 feet long by 87 feet 8 inches wide be built at an estimated cost of $67,500. In a further report, dated 14th June, 1917, he states that only an approximate cost of $100,000 can be given for a freight shed 1,005 feet long by 92 feet wide, equipped with offices, lighting, drainage, plumbing, etc. When I visited Vancouver last fall, I saiw this wharf, which is a splendid one and on which there is an elevator and a shed. I know that this second shed is an absolute necessity, and the people of Vancouver have been urging its erection. For that reason we are proceeding with it this year.


William Pugsley: I am sorry the hon.
member for Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) is not in. his seat, because I would like to ask him as to the location of this wharf and as to whether this is the property he referred to some little time ago when he said it had been leased or sold to Mr. Kelly. Is that the property?


John Dowsley Reid: The property was bought
from the Hastings Shingle and Mill Company and the Canadian Pacific Lumber Company three or four years ago. The Public Works Department then constructed this large wharf. Later on, the Department of Trade and Commerce built a laTge elevator on the shore end of the wharf. When the wharf was built, a shed 676 feet long by 78 feet 8 inches wide was erected. That shed has been filled to its capacity. The deputy minister tells me that the freight has been piled all along the other side of the wharf, and this new shed is therefore being constructed for the purpose of handling this excess freight.


William Pugsley: It is somewhat anomalous that the Public Works Department should be building the wharf and the Department of Trade and Commerce building the elevator.


John Dowsley Reid: The elevator is on the shore end of the wharf. The wharf extends from the shore out 800 feet.


William Pugsley: Why has that departure been made and why is the Department of Trade and Commerce undertaking the erect-tion of the elevator?
336|


John Dowsley Reid: The hon member will remember that the Department of Trade and Commerce have built three ot four elevators in the prairie provinces besides this one at Vancouver.
Mr. PUGSLEY Have they architects .in their department?


John Dowsley Reid: The Grain Commission had the plans prepared by those who were submitting tenders.


William Pugsley: It seems anomalous that a department which ordinarily has nothing to do with the erection of public buildings, which has no staff of architects, should be undertaking the erection of public buildings. I thought that work peculiarly belonged to the Department of Public Works, excepting, of course, that the Department ' of Railways probably erect elevators, they having their own staff for such work, T suppose. When was the elevator completed?


John Dowsley Reid: About a year and a half ago.


William Pugsley: Has its erection resulted in the transportation of grain through Vancouver?


John Dowsley Reid: Some grain, not a very large quantity, has gone through.


William Pugsley: Is any grain stored in this elevator?


John Dowsley Reid: ^ome, but not a very largo quantity. Last fall, when I was at Vancouver, the quantity was not very large, and it was rather for local consumption, but I understand that some will be going there very soon.


William Pugsley: What is the explanation of there not being any considerable quantity as was expected?


John Dowsley Reid: The Minister of Trade and Commerce, of course, could explain that more fully than I could. It was expected that the grain would be shipped via the Pacific and through the Panama canal to Liverpool. When the war broke out it was impossible to get tonnage for shipments via that route, and for that reason, I suppose, there has not been the quantity of grain shipped through this elevator that was expected. I heard the Minister of Trade and Commerce saying the other day it was likely that some would go through soon. Some of the new vessels are going through the Panama canal, and they will take a quantity of grain in order to see how grain will go through Vancouver ot Liverpool by that route.


'COMMONS
[Stage Direction]
Victoria harbour improvements, further amount required, $370,000.
John Dowsley Reid: This amount of $370,000 is required in addition to the amount of $1,000,000 in the main estimates for the following improvements:
1.	Completion of breakwater, under
contract with Sir John Jackson (Canada), Ltd	$ 125,000
2.	Completion of piers Nos. 2 and 3, under contract with Grant, Smith
& Co., and McDonnell, Ltd	 1,076,340
3.	Wooden freight shed on pier 2,
702' x 200'	 125,000
4.	Car-ferry slip-to provide rail connection with railways and wharves 25,000
5.	Trackage-5,400 ft. of trackage,
60-lb. rails	 12,000
Inspection	   6,660
Total	$1,370,000
Less:	Vote in Main Estimates,
1917-18	 1,000,000
Vote asked for	as above	$ 370,000
Mr, PUGSLEY: Will that all be expended this year?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, under the contracts that are now running.
Halifax Quarantine Station on Lawlor's Island-water supply, $5,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This vote of $5,000 is to cover the cost of the sinking of an artesian well, providing boiler and pumping engine, making use of the large tank which at present contains salt water, which would be emptied, and pumping the fresh water into this tank. This water would then be distributed through the present fire mains and branches laid to each building. It is considered that the supply of fresh water would be sufficient for both fire and domestic purposes. The estimated cost is as follows: Sinking well, $2,000; boiler, pumping engine and shelter for same, $1,650; laying branches from main to the different buildings, with valves, excavations, etc., $463; incidentals and contingencies, say, $887; total, $5,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has the work been commenced?


John Dowsley Reid: No.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will you ask for tenders?


John Dowsley Reid: It may be hard to get tenderers. If so, we can do the work ourselves.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: There will be no trouble in getting people to do the work. Will the minister ask for tenders? On a 
public work costing over $5,000 I think the minister is expected to call for tenders.


John Dowsley Reid: The sinking of the well is estimated to cost $2,000, SO' I think under the Act we could put a well-digger on it. We may, however, call for tenders if the department think it advisable. It is not a very serious matter either way.
St. John old .post office-rewiring entire building, $2,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This money is to be applied in entirely rewiring, for electric lighting in an up-to-date manner, the old post office at St. John.


William Pugsley: I think it requires it.
Grosse Isle Quarantine Station-new buildings-revote, $123,000.


William Pugsley: Why should not that item be left out?


John Dowsley Reid: The Minister of Agriculture cleams that it is absolutely necessary to have this amount voted. He has been pressing for it very hard.


William Pugsley: There are no immigrants coming in now.


John Dowsley Reid: It will take a year to get
ready for them.


William Pugsley: This vote cannot be absolutely necessary, because the money- was voted last year and nothing was spent. The minister must see that there is a vast number of items, amounting to a very large sum, which have apparently just been put in in view of the election coming on-for it was not thought necessary to put them in the main estimates. They are put here with the view of making the people believe that a large amount of money is to be spent here and there throughout the country. It is just done to excite hopes which, perhaps, it is not intended to gratify. Why should all these amounts be included in the supplementary estimates under Public Works? Take for instance, this item of $123,000 for Gross Isle quarantine station, which has already cost a large amount of money. This amount was voted last year, so apparently there is no urgency, because not a dollar oi money was spent. Why should this item be in now, when it is far more important even than it was last year, to save all the money we can and use it for the purposes of the war?


John Dowsley Reid: We must get ready for the immigration that will come immediately after the war. If we have this vote passed, we

shall be in a position to proceed with the work as soon the war looks to be ending.
Mr. A. K. M1ACLEAN: You could not commence until next spring, anyway.


John Dowsley Reid: But we can call for tenders. Without a vote, it would be impossible to proceed with this building if the war should cease. We expect immigration after the war, and the Minister of Agriculture claims that this building will be absolutely necessary then.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the war end before next spring?


John Dowsley Reid: We thought so last year when this vote was taken.


William Pugsley: On what grounds did my hon. friend think so?


John Dowsley Reid: I had my own views, and I think they were shared by a great many other people. To-day some people think the war will last one or two years more, and others think it will be over in the next six months.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What does the minister think?


John Dowsley Reid: I hope it will. At all events, it is better to have this vote passed in case it does, so that we shall be prepared to go on with the work.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does the minister think that the immigrants will swim across the Atlantic or come over by aeroplane?


John Dowsley Reid: They may come both ways.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is the only way they can come immediately after the war.


John Dowsley Reid: I do not say that.


William Pugsley: There will be very great demand upon transportation facilities to bring our soldiers back to Canada after the war. I do not like the minister to put forward to the House, or that we should approve of the idea, that immediately upon the war being over the Government will rush into all kinds of expenditure like this. As my hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) suggests, it must be quite a time after the war before any immigrants will be able to be transported across the Atlantic. It will take two years at least to get our soldiers back to Canada.


John Dowsley Reid: It would take at least a year to complete this building after work on it was commenced, and by that time surely
our soldiers would have been returned. We want to be ready when immigration comes.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Would it be at all possible that this vote was put on this year and put off last year because the Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) knew there was not going to be an election last year, and that there is probably going to be one this year? That would not be within the realm of probability, I suppose?


John Dowsley Reid: I would not do that.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: That supposition would not apply to the rest of these items that were in last year, and are now being revoted.


John Dowsley Reid: We struck out all the election ones.


Mr. BURRELL:: Perhaps I am responsible-for most of these items being here and' being pressed. We have been under very serious disability at Grosse Isle. The last time we had much disease there, we had to get tents, because there was absolutely no hospital accommodation. If, after this war, as usually happens after big wars, there should be much typhus or other bad disease, we should be ' in a most deplorable condition at Grosse Isle.
We have the foundation of a hospital there, and it is a matter of urgency that the buliding should be completed. I have been earnestly pressing this on my colleagues for the past three years. I can assure my hon. friend from Lambton (Mr. Pardee) that there is no politics in this particular vote.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Perish the thought!


William Pugsley: The main estimates for Public Works amount to $16,000,000. That would be a large expenditure even in. peace times. Now it is proposed to add nearly $3,000,000, making about $19,000,000 to be voted for Public Works this coming year. The minister would be well advised if he would endeavour to make a reduction, as this is quite without justification.


John Dowsley Reid: The estimates last year were $30,000,000, so there has been a reduction of over $10,000,000. These items are very urgently needed; most of them are small items for repairs that we could not avoid.


William Pugsley: The supplementary estimates total $50,000,000, which is away beyond any thing any Government has ever asked. The minister cannct justify the ex-

travagance in his department by comparing this year's estimate with last year's, because the estimate of last year was beyond all reason. The total expenditure of the department during the last three years I was minister was $37,000,000; but in the first three years of this Administration the Public Works estimates ran to $80,000,000 

two and one-half times what they were in the last three years of my administration. The Government went wild over public works, and their extravagance was beyond anything in the history of any country. Now, when the war is on, it is proposed to spend in one year more than one-half of the amount expended in the last three years of Liberal administration during times of peace, when the country was prosperous, when population was increasing, and additional public works were necessary. lit is startling that the minister should ask for such a large amount of money.


John Dowsley Reid: While it is true that in the first three years of this Administration the [DOT] Public Works estimates did increase very much, it must be remembered that the Government undertook the development of all the large harbours, Victoria, Vancouver, St. John, Quebec, Halifax.


William Pugsley: Many of these works
had been undertaken, and the work at Halifax is, I think, altogether chargeable to the Railways and Canals Department, so that is in addition to this enormous expenditure.


John Dowsley Reid: Even leaving Halifax out,
there have been very large expenditures under the Public Works Department for harbour improvements. The expenditure in the last year of the hon. member's administration was $14,338,000.


William Pugsley: That was $5,000,000 less than you propose this year.


John Dowsley Reid: In 1915-16 it was $16,150,000. Then there are all these large works for which the contracts have been let and which must be carried out. We are decreasing this year.
Mr. PiUGSLEY: You ask for $19,000,000.


John Dowsley Reid: We are decreasing the estimates by $10,000,000 in the Public Works Department, so although we expended $16,000,000 last year, it will be less this year.


William Pugsley: You are working for the election year and are asking $4,000,000 more than you expended last year.
[Mr. Pugsley.l


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member knows it is impossible to estimate the exact amount that will be expended. In the last year of the hon. member's administration he asked for $24,301,475 and expended only $14,338,000, a little more than half. Last year the minister asked for $30,828,10 p.m. 000, 'and expended $16,150,000 about the same proportion.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I quite agree with the remarks of the hon. member for St. John (Mr. Pugsley). The amounts voted for public works would total enough to meet the immediate necessities of the Canadian Northern railway, which would have obviated our embarking on the very doubtful scheme of government ownership of that road, a scheme which may be the most serious thing this country ever embarked upon. You could not very well drop some of these votes, such as the completion of the contract at Vancouver. This public work was commenced before the war and, of course, must be completed. But there are the items for public buildings in the several provinces.
I think these items might be abandoned for this yeaT. I doubt very much that in any case the expenditures will be made. Then, for my own province of Nova Scotia,
I see that there is over $2,000,000 to be voted for harbours and rivers. Speaking generally, I think I may safely say, that none of this money is necessary for the present year. You cannot expend money during the balance of this year for harbours and rivers in Nova Scotia. You cannot get the necessary material. It is difficult to get labour. Furthermore, the season is not convenient for repairs to public wharves and works of that kind. If we vote this $2,000,000 it will not be expended this year. The same is true of New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Quebec and Ontario. It is hardly possible to believe that actual expenditures are contemplated under these votes. If they cannot be expended within the next two months, they cannot be expended until next year, in April, May or Juqe, which is the proper time to make expenditures of this kind. Therefore, I agree quite heartily with the remarks made by the hon. member for St. John. It appears1 unfortunate to ask Parliament to vote these sums at this time. A few months ago, the late Minister of Public Works, in a speech at Montreal, said that he was cutting down the public works expenditures to about $7,000,000 and was eliminating everything. It is quite obvious that these items are not inserted in

the supplementary estimates with the view of making expenditures. There are three or four pages which the minister ought to drop.


John Dowsley Reid: Nearly all these items in the supplementaries are for repairs that are absolutely necessary.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: They will not be done.


John Dowsley Reid: The deputy tells me that they have only put in those that are actually necessary and that they will be done.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Will be done this fall?


John Dowsley Reid: If they are not done this fall they will be done next spring.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does the minister mean that the money is to be expended during the winter?


John Dowsley Reid: We can get out timber in the winter and get ready if we cannot complete the work before spring.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Then the minister should cut out three or four pages of these items.


John Dowsley Reid: We cannot; they are absolutely necessary.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There is no trouble about that. In New Brunswick last winter, while the elections were going on, they were making roads and cutting down bushes alongside of the roads.
Grosse Isle Quarantine Station-boiler house, new boilers, etc., $25,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This is required for two new hundred-horse-power boilers and the remodelling of the present boiler house. The two boilers will cost $8,000 setting $3,000; remodelling the boiler house, $10,000, and contingencies $4,000.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Will this work be done this fall?


John Dowsley Reid: It will be done as soon as the vote is passed.
Quebec post office-enlargement and alterations-additional-revote, $15,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This is required, in addition to the eum of $80,000 in the main estimates, for carrying on the work under contract on the Quebec post office, and for additional work, such as fittings, furniture, lock boxes, heating, sidewalks, fence, elevators, tower clock installation, etc.
* Mr. A. K. MACLEAN: When was that new work commenced?


John Dowsley Reid: This work is under contract and this $15,000 is required to finish it. The work of rebuilding the post office in Quebec was started about four years ago.
Three Rivers-new public buildings, $20,000.


George William Kyte: This is a vote for a new building entirely according to the statement in the estimates. It is not for a building in course of construction. That certainly is an item which should be allowed to stand.


John Dowsley Reid: This is for a new building, but it is really to finish a building the contract for which was let in January, 1914. Tiie contract was let to Joseph Bourke, of Hull, and he is proceeding with the work.
Galt drill hall-grading, paving, etc., $8,000.


George Perry Graham: That is not new?


John Dowsley Reid: That is for grading and paving, and putting in concrete gutters around around the drill hall already built.
Kemptville public building-$2,100.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What county is Kemptville in?


George Perry Graham: Who represents the riding-or misrepresents it?


John Dowsley Reid: This vote of $2,100 is to provide, first, for balance on a lot 30 feet 2 inches by 92 feet, situate on the north side of the Kemptville public building, the purchase of which was authorized by an Order in Council dated 5th March, 1917, and, secondly, to clear the lot of all burned stone, brick and timber, as well as other debris resulting from the fire of 7th February, 1915, and to level the ground so that it may be made into a lawn; relaying sidewalk on Prescott street. The explanation of that is this: a public building was erected in Kemptville. The lot was purchased prior to 1911.


George Perry Graham: Not this lot.


John Dowsley Reid: No, the lot on which the public building was erected. Adjoining the public building was a store owned by Mundle & Percival. That building took fire and burned down, and did considerable damage to the public building. The people in Kemptville urged that, instead of allowing Mundle & Percival to build on that lot, and possibly endanger the public building, it would be better for the Government to buy the vacant property owned by Mundle & Percival. That would make the public building on the square.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is this lot to be used as a tennis court?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know what they will do with it. Mundle & Pereival asked a much larger amount than this, and the Public Works Department negotiated with these people, with the result that they purchased it for this amount of $2,000. They wanted a very large amount for the property when the building was on it, but the Public Works Department finally bought it at this figure.


George Perry Graham: I suppose recommendations were made by members.


John Dowsley Reid: No.
Kingston Royal Military College-enlargement of educational block, $150,000-to complete new dormitory by adding two wings, $100,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This vote of $150,000 is asked
to make provision towards the extension of the educational block of the Kingston Royal Military College. In their notes on military buildings, dated 14th October, 1912, the Militia and Defence Department stated that in view of the increased number of cadets who are accommodated at the college it is found that the present educational building does not provide ample class-rooms, dining-rooms, recreation rooms, etc., and it is proposed to extend the present build-to this end. The actual accommodation required consists of mess-room, 75x40, for 300 cadets; library; one big lecture hall, which will hold all the cadetsi at a time for general lectures, etc.; a draughting room; two' additional lecture rooms for classes of 50 cadets; and a chemical laboratory for practical work. The present mess, draughting and book Tooms in the old building would be used for other purposes. In a reply to a letter from the Deputy Minister of Public Works of 7th June inquiring as to the necessity of a list of works requested by the Department of Militia and Defence to be noted in the supplementary estimates, the Deputy Minister of Militia and Defence, under date 23rd June, states as follows:
I have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your letter of-the 7th instant, and to inform you that the various items contained in your letter have been carefully gone into, and it is requested that the following items which are urgently required be provided for In your supplementary estimates :	Knlargement of educational block, $150,000 ; complete new dormitory, adding two wings, $100,000, It is hoped that every effort will be made to provide these items This extension of the educational block was recommended by the Militia and Defence Department, December,'1913, October 31, 1914, and October 24, 1916.


George Perry Graham: Is it not a fact that applications for admission to this institution had to be refused this year for lack of accommodation?


John Dowsley Reid: That is true.


George Perry Graham: These are big items, and if they were for something else, I would be inclined to oppose them; but the Royal Military College has proved itself such a wonderful institution, and its graduates have shown themselves to be such brave and splendidly equipped men during the present war, that I would hesitate to object to any vote for the improvement of this great college. Even in peace time the education given at the Royal Military College has been such that some of our leading men have been produced by that institution. The training is not, as some people appear to think, only physical, but there is a mental training, and a course of study to equip young men for the activities of life in a practical way, which might well be envied by some other institutions. If those in charge of the Royal Military College assure the Government and Parliament, as I believe they do, that this vote is necessary for the better equipment of this institution, and, as I am privately informed, for the present needs, I would be in favour of passing these items. If it be true, as we have been told it is, that on account of lack of accommodation, applications have been refused this year to young men who wish to enter the Royal Military College, then we cannot too quickly remedy that defect.


William Folger Nickle: The original educational building is the building now being used for the education of cadets. The cadets are intensely crowded in that building. I think the original scheme of accommodation was for some 80 pupils. Now they have a great many more there, and the demand on the part of young men to enter the college is so great that we have competitive examinations. The second item is to complete the new dormitory by adding two wings. Some five or six years ago, before the dormitory building was erected, one part of it was bricked up. The main building is stone, and, the idea is to remove this brick, and to complete the building by the erection of the additional wing. The commandant tells me it is absolutely essential, if good work is to be done, that further dormitory and educational accommodation must be provided, and those who have followed the history of this war must be aware' that a great many of the men who received their training at that institution

have by their conduct won distinction for themselves and for this country.


George Perry Graham: Could the minister explain this: we had in the -main estimates quite a number of votes, and we have in the supplementary page after page. Why is it necessary to have supplementary estimates? Why were these items not put in the main estimates ?


John Dowsley Reid: The main estimates are made up in October. These are repairs that have become necessary from time to time since then.	_


George Perry Graham: If the House had not been in session, you would have had to do without these votes.	,
Ottawa Departmental Buildings - rewiring, etc.-further amount required, $10,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This is to complete work that has been going on in connection with rewiring the public buildings. There yet remain to be done three corridors and 46 rooms in the Langevin block. The estimate was prepared in 1912-13, since which time the cost of labour and material, principally material, has advanced in some cases fifty per cent.
Ottawa-pavements, including Government's share of cost of repaving Sussex street from Rideau street to St. Patrick street, $43,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This covers the following works: repaving Sussex street from Rideau to- St. Patrick street, Government's share of cost, $18,785; pavement in front of Government Printing Bureau, $6,200; repairing asphalt pavement on Wellington street, west of Bank, $17,000; repairing Wellington street pavement between Connaught Plaza and Bank street, $1,015.


William Pugsley: Is this for paving the roadway?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


William Pugsley: Is there a law in Ontario that the proprietors pay half the cost of paving the roadway?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes; thi3 is our share of the cost.
Mr, PUGSLEY: Is this our legal share?


John Dowsley Reid: The deputy informs me that the Government are in the same position as private owners.
Ottawa Government Printing Bureau-freight elevators, $8,500.


John Dowsley Reid: This is to provide for two
standard electric freight elevators of 6,000 lbs. capacity, at 100 feet per minute, to replace old elevators now operated by steam power in the Printing Bureau at Ottawa.
Prescott public buildings-repairs and renewals-revote, $3,000.


John Dowsley Reid: When I came through Prescott this morning I noticed that they were repairing the buildings there. The chief architect has mentioned during the last two or three years that the buildings required repair; the same view has been expressed by officials in the Post Office and Customs buildings there. The roof has been in very bad shape; the bricks have been falling away from around it. The work really had to be proceeded with this year; it will be completed within the next ten or twelve days.
Stayner-^public buildings, $10,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This vote is to provide for the purchase of a site and the erection of a public building in the town of Stayner for post office purposes.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: How big is Stayner?


John Dowsley Reid: The population is 1,200.
PUGSLEY:	What county is it in?
(Mr. REID:	Stayner is an incorporated
town in Simcoe county, Ontario, a station on the Meaford branch of the Grand Trunk railway, nine miles from Collingwood and twenty-three miles from Barrie. It has eighteen stores, three hotels, shingle, planing and woollen mills, one brick kiln, carriage factory, branch bank, printing office, and a weekly newspaper.


George Perry Graham: How does the minister
reconcile this vote with his assurance to the House that no new works would be started? An election is coming on and it is thought that a lot ought to be bought in Stayner. We have been assured over and over again- that no new works would be started. Here is a violation of that pledge.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: The minister has not given an explanation why he is starting to undertake new works. He has said that no new buildings would be started.


John Dowsley Reid: We will let the item stand until I can get more information.
Item stands.
Manitoba public buildings-Winnipeg-alterations to immigration building No. 1, for accommodation of postal station A, $20,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This vote is to provide interior alterations to immigration building No. 1, at the Canadian Pacific Railway station at Winnipeg, for the accommodation of postal station A.
5.312


William Pugsley: Is that a wood or a stone building?


John Dowsley Reid: It is a brick building with stone trimmings.
Saskatchewan public buildings-Regina-alterations to Assistant Receiver General's buildings, to accommodate post office, $10,000.


William Pugsley: Why is this required?


John Dowsley Reid: This vote of $10,000 is required for alterations to the Assistant Receiver General's building (old Royal Bank), Regina. This will provide for a proper staircase, overhauling heating apparatus, paving lane, installing electric freight elevator, conveyor from present post office across lane, etc. The estimated cost of the proposed alterations is $9,250, with contingencies of $750, or a total of $10,000.
Alberta public buildings-Coutts-immigration building, $2,000.


William Pugsley: Where is that?


John Dowsley Reid: That is right on the boundary line, south of Calgary. There are no buildings there. It is where the Canadian Pacific crosses the boundary. This amount of $2,000 is required to reimburse the Department of the Interior for the construction of immigration building at Coutts.


William Pugsley: It is right on the international boundary line?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.
Spirit River-immigration building, $5,000.


John Dowsley Reid: This is to reimburse the Department of the Interior for the erection of an immigration building at Spirit River settlement.


William Pugsley: Where is Spirit river?


John Dowsley Reid: It is in Edmonton county. We have a recommendation for this from the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver).
British Columbia public buildings-William's Head quarantine station water supply, $150,000.


William Pugsley: This is a large item.
What is the explanation?


John Dowsley Reid: This amount of $150,000 is
required to provide an adequate water supply for the quarantine station at William's Head. The'present water .supply is obtained from the Quarantine lake, a distance of 3% miles, .and was installed about 1894. It was repaired on many occasions between 1900 and 1913; but constant attention is necessary in stopping leaks, etc. In case of fire the pressure would be greatly inade-[DOT]quate and the chief of the fire department

states that the existing conditions are extremely dangerous and unsatisfactory. During the summer months the watershed from which the present water supply is obtained dries up, and there is always a scarcity of water. To overcome this serious drawback it is proposed /to obtain a new source of supply. The proposed work consists in the construction of a water main from a point known as. " Bray's Farm " on the waterworks system of the city of Victoria, to the quarantine station at William's Head, a distance of about 8| miles. The construction of this main is. in accordance with an offer made by a resolution of the municipal council of the city of Victoria on the 28th May, 1917, as follows:
Resolved, that the Water Commissioner be authorized to submit an offer to the proper official of the Dominion Government to supply water from the city water works to the said quarantine station in accordance with arrangements to be mutually agreed upon, embracing the following general terms and conditions, namely, to sell water to the Dominion Government for this purpose, delivered at a point known as "Braye Farm," at six cents per thousand gallons, the Government to furnish and lay the necessary main, and the city to maintain said main, after it is laid, for a period of five years.
In view of the increasing prices for cast iron pipe it is proposed to use the pneumatic tubes which have been in storage in Toronto for post office purposes and thereby effect a material reduction in the cost of the work. The chief architect of the Department of Public Works in a report dated 23rd June, 1917, states as follows:
Since negotiations with regard to this supply have been in progress the cost of cast iron pipe has advanced very materially. In January, 1917, our resident architect at Victoria estimated the cost of 10-inch water pipe on that date as $52 per ton. I am now in receipt of an estimate from him, dated 22nd June, in which the price is quoted at $85.20 per ton. This difference in cost of cast iron pipe will, of course, very materially affect the estimate for the cost of the work, which was about $150,000.
I have taken up the matter of using the pneumatic tubes which we have in storage in Toronto, with Mr. Chipman, C.E., of Toronto, and have received from him a report as follows:
That from the tests made on the pneumatic tubes he is of the opinion that the pipe would prove satisfactory for water, works purposes under a working head not exceeding 300 ft., but before being used they should be thoroughly cleaned, re-coated, tested and weighed; and that greater care will be necessary in laying these pipes than in laying standard cast iron water pipes. The pipes must be laid more closely to grade and to line than with standard pipes. For a long conduit these pipes would be equivalent if not superior to the standard pattern of pipes. He states he would have no hesitation in using these pipes on a water works system provided they were cleaned, coated and tested.


William Pugsley: What number of immigrants are coming to William's Head?


John Dowsley Reid: I know there was a very large number last year. .


William Pugsley: Coming from where?


John Dowsley Reid: The Orient.


William Pugsley: This seems to me a very large expenditure for a quarantine station water supply.


John Dowsley Reid: All the vessels have to stop there. I understand there will be more immigrants next year.
Dawson post office-vault, $10,000.


George William Kyte: Some days ago I put some questions on the Order Paper with reference to this item. I asked the minister if he had any report from his officials asking that this expenditure be made, and he answered yes. I also asked him to produce the correspondence, and he replied in the affirmative, but I have not received it yet.


John Dowsley Reid: I remember looking up the matter. All who have made recommendations in this matter agree that the vault is in a very bad condition. The deputy minister will send over the correspondence to my hon. friend. I understand that a telegram came not very long ago from Ernest Revard saying that this expenditure was no longer necessary, but that was when he was no longer agent of the Public Works Department. He seems to have changed his mind since he severed his connection with the department.


William Pugsley: There is a vault there at present, is there not?
'Mr. REID: This vote of ?10,000 is to be applied in tearing down and rebuilding the vault in the Dawson post office building, which has been sinking. This vault was not built on a proper foundation in the first place and is gradually dropping down into the earth and at the same time toppling oveT; in its present condition it is not fireproof, and in the event of the building being destroyed by fire, the vault would he almost certain to topple over and break up, and even if it stood, would not protect the contents from fire.
Dawson being built on a glacial formation, any building or heavy weight, to be substantially placed and remain true in its position, must have foundations put down (12 feet) through the muck and ice over burden to the frozen gravel below. Nothing else will stand. The weight of this vault, as it settles, is shoving over the whole post
office building to such an extent that doors and windows have been crushed out of posi-tiorf, the floors and ceilings cracked and pulled down to a slant. The present vault is enclosed in the main building, and it is proposed to erect the new vault outside of and connecting with the building on the inside only. The vault doors will be stationed, and access will be had to them from the main building. The outside dimensions of vault will 'be 12x14 feet, with stone wall 12 feet high; brick wall on top 25 feet high, and chimney erected at the corner of the vault. The reconstruction of vault has been reoommended by the Department of the Interior October 20, 1916, and by Mr. George Black, Commissioner of the Yukon Territory, in a letter dated 24th August, 1916. I also remember seeing a letter from the Collector of Customs, another from the postmaster, and one from Mr. Revard himself.


George William Kyte: Does not the minister think it would be well to have an inquiry to verify the facts, inasmuch as Mr. Revard has notified- the department that .there is no expenditure required, as the vault is in good condition? Does not the minister think it would be well to inquire why Mr. Revard has changed his mind?


John Dowsley Reid: I feel this way about it. Mr. Revard, when agent of the department recommended this expenditure. It hak also been recommended by the gentlemen I have mentioned, in all of whom I have confidence. I think that Mr. Revard must have some grievance, and is now trying ito prevent this expenditure. At -al) events, the agent of the department will look into this matter before we proceed with it.


George Perry Graham: Who is the agent?


John Dowsley Reid: No one has been appointed
yet.


George William Kyte: When did Mr. Revard cease to be the agent?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know the exact
date, but the correspondence will show.


George William Kyte: Would the minister let the item stand for the present?


William Roche: I had the privilege of'
being in Dawson city a year ago last summer, and was taken through this building by the officials. It was undoubtedly in a very dangerous condition. The floor had sunk very considerably, and the partitions had drawn away from the ceiling. It was impressed upon me how necessary it was to have this vault rebuilt. I know nothing

whatever as to the expenditure, but most assuredly the building was in a very dangerous condition,
Item stands.
Public buildings-rents, repairs, furniture, heating, etc., $324,000.


John Dowsley Reid: There is an increase in this item, owing to the advance in the price of coal, of about 20 per cent.


William Pugsley: What is the price of coal to the Government in Ottawa?


John Dowsley Reid: It is $9.25 a ton.


Mr. McKENZIE:: I have been informed by a citizen of Ottawa that the fuel controller has no authority under the Order in Council appointing him to enforce his injunctions or to inflict punishment for infringement of them.


John Dowsley Reid: The intention was that the fuel controller was to get the coal to parties in Canada at a reasonable price. I should prefer to look over the Order in Council before saying just what his powers are.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Reid, the House adjourned at 11 p.m.
Tuesday, September 4, 1917.