1917-01-31

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Right Hon. Sir	ROBERT BORDEN
(Prime Minister) presented the following report of the Special Committee appointed to prepare and report, with all convenient speed, lists of members to compose the Select Standing Committees of the House during the present Session:	
No. 1.	
ON PRIVILEGES	AND ELECTIONS.
Messieurs	
Barnard,	Lafortune,
Bennett (Calgary),	Lapointe
Bennett (Simcoe),	(Kamouraska),
Blondin,	Lemieux,
Borden (Sir Robert),	Maclean (Halifax),
Boys,	Marcile (Bagot),
Bristol,	Munson,
Bureau,	Nickle,
Carvell,	Northrup,
Charlton,	Patenaude,
Crothers,	Porter,
Demers,	Rainville,
Descarries,	Robidoux,
Devlin,	Ross,
Doherty,	Thomson (Qu'Appelle),
Fripp,	Tremain, and .
German, Kay,	Wilson (Laval).-34.
No. 2.	
ON RAILWAYS., CANALS	AND TELEGRAPH LINES.
Messieurs	
Aehim,	Lanctot,
Armstrong	Lapointe .
(Lambton),	(Kamouraska),
Arthurs,	Lapointe
Barnard,	(Montreal, St J.),
Barrette, v	Lemieux,
B61and,	L'EspGrance,
Bellemare,	Macdonald,
Bennett (Calgary),	Macdonell,
Bennett (Simcoe),	Maclean (York, O.),
Bickerdike,	MacNutt,
Blatin,	McCoig,
Boivin,	McCraney,
Boyce,	McCrea,
Boyer,	McCurdy,
Boys,	McKenzie,
Brabazon,	McLean
Bradbury,	(Queens, P.E.I.),
Bristol,	McLean (Sunbury),
Buchanan,	McLeod,
Bureau,	Marcile (Bagot),
Carroll,	Marshall,
Cash,	Middlebro,
Chabot,	Molloy,
Charlton,	Morphy,
Clark (Red Deer),	Murphy,
Clements,	Neely,
Cochrane,	Nesbitt,

Cockshutt,	Nickle,
Copp,	Northrup,
Cruise, [DOT]	Oliver,
Currie,	Paquet,
Davidson,	Pardee,
Delisle,	Porter,
Descarries,	Pugsley,
Devlin,	Robidoux,
Donaldson,	Rochon,
Douglas,	Ross, '
Edwards,	Schaffner,
Elliot,	Sharpe,
Ethier,	Smith,
Fisher,	Smyth,
Forget (Sir Rodolphe),	Stanfield,
Fowler,	Stevens,
Fripp,	Stewart (Hamilton),
Gauthier (GaspS)),	Sutherland,
Gauvreau,	Taylor,
German,	Thomson (Qu'Appelle)
Girard,	Thornton,
Gordon,	Tobin,
Graham,	Tremain,
Green,	Turgeon,
Guilbault,	Turriff,
Guthrie,	Wallace,
Hartt,	Weichel,
Henderson,	White (Renfrew),
Hepburn,	White
Jameson,	(Victoria, Alta),
Kay,	Wilson (Laval),
Kemp,	Wilson
Knowles,	Wentworth, and
Lachance,	Wright.-119.
Lalor,	
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Twenty-five Members.
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No. 3. ON MISCELLANEOUS PRIVATE BILLS.
Messieurs
Ames (Sir Herbert),	Lalor,
Armstrong (York, O.),	, Macdonell,
Ball,	McLean (Sunbury),
Blondin,	McLeod,
Boulay,	McMillan,
Bourassa,	Marcil (Bonaventure),
Boyce,	Martin,
Boyer,	Mondou,
Boys,	Morris,
Broder,	Morrison,
Bureau,	Murphy,
Burnham,	Pacaud,
Carrick,	Papineau, [DOT]
Carvell,	Pardee,
Clarke (Wellington),	Paul,
Davidson,	Perley (Sir George),
Devlin,	Porter,
Ethier,	Proulx,
Forget (Sir Rodolphe),	Reid,
Fripp,	Robb,
Gauthier,	Ross,
(St. Hyacinthe),	Scott,
Gauvreau,	Sharpe,
Girard,	Shepherd,
Glass,	Steele,
Gordon,	Stewart (Hamilton),
Guthrie,	Thoburn,
Hepburn,	Tobin,
Hughes (Sir Sam),	Turriff,
Jameson,	Walker, and
Knowles,	White (Renfrew).-64.
Lachance,	
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Ten Members.
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No. 4. ON STANDING ORDERS.
Messieurs
Achim,	McCoig,
Alguire,	McCraney,
Armstrong (Lambton), McCurdy,	
Barrette,	Marcile (Bagot),
Best,	Michaud,
Boulay,	Morris,
Burrell,	Paquet,
Chabot,	Paul,
Cromwell,	Roche,
Doherty,	Scott,
Fortier,	Seguin,
Hazen,	Stanfield,
Knowles,	Turgeon,
Kyte,	Verville, and
MacBean (York, O.)	, White (Sir Thomas).
MacNutt,	-31.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee	
do consist of Seven	Members.
ON	No. 5. PRINTING I
Messieurs	
Bickerdike,	Marshall,
Bowman,	Martin,
Brabazon,	Middlebro,
Brouillard,	Murphy,
Buchanan,	Nicholson,
Burnham,	Roche,
Cardin,	Rochon,
Chabot,	Stevens,
Clark (Bruce),	Verville,
Clarke (Wellington)	, White (Victoria,
Currie,	Alta.), and
Douglas,	Wilson
Elliot,	(Wentworth ).-25.
Graham, No. 6. ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.	
Messieurs	
Barnard,	Marshall,
Bennett (Calgary),	Martin,
Bennett (Simcoe).	Meighen,
Blain,	Merner,
Boyce,	Michaud,
Boys,	Middlebro,
Carroll,	Mondou,
Carvell,	Morphy,
Chisholm,	Morrison,
Clarke (Essex),	Murphy,
Clarke (Wellington), Nicholson,	
Clements,	Nickle,
Crothers,	Northrup,
Davidson,	Pardee,
Devlin,	Proulx,
Edwards,	Pugsley,
Fisher,	Reid,
Fripp,	Robidoux,
German,	Rogers,
Green,	Ross,
Hughes	Scott,
(Kings, P.E.I.),	S£vigny,
Kay,	Sinclair,
Kemp,	Smyth,
Kyte,	Standfield,
Macdonald,	Stewart (Lunenburg),
Macdonell,	Tobin,
Maclean (Halifax),	Tremain,
McCoig,	Truax,
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McCraney,	White
McCrea,	(Sir Thomas), and
McCurdy,	Wilcox.-63.
McKenzie,
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Twenty-one Members.
No. 7.
ON BANKING AND COMMERCE :
Messieurs
Ames (Sir Herbert).	Macdonald,
Armstrong (Lambton),	Macdonell,
Armstrong (York, O.),	Maclean (Halifax),
Ball,	Maclean (York, O.),
Barnard,	McCraney, .
Bellemare,	McCrea,
Bennett (Calgary),	McCurdy,
Best,	McLean (Sunbury),
Bickerdike,	McLeod,
Boivin,	McMillan,
Boyce,	Marshall,
Bristol,	Meighen,
Broder,	Middlebro,
Buchanan,	Nesbitt,
Burnham,	Nickle,
Cardin,	Northrup,
Carrick,	Osier (Sir Edmund),
Carvell,	Pacaud,
Charlton,	Papineau,
Clark (Bruce),	Pardee,
Clark (Red Deer),	Perley (Sir George),
Cockshutt,	Porter,
Copp,	Power,
Currie,	Pugsley,
Davidson,	Rainville,
Demers,	Robb,
Edwards,	Roche,
Fisher,	Rochon,
Forget	Ross,
(Sir Rodolphe),	Sexsmith,
Fortier,	Sharpe,
Foster (Sir George),	Sinclair,
Fowler,	Steele,
Gauthier	Stevens,
(St. Hyacinthe),	Stewart (Hamilton),
Glass,	Stewart (Lunenburg),
Graham,	Sutherland,
Guthrie,	Thompson (Yukon),
Hanna,	Thomson (Qu'Appelle)
Henderson,	Thornton,
Hughes	Tobin.
(Kings, P.E.I.).	Turriff,
Hughes (Sir Sam),	Verville,
Jameson,	Warnock,
Kay,	Webster,
Kemp,	Weichel,
Knowles,	White
Kyte,	| (Sir Thomas), and
Lemieux,	j Wilson
Loggie,	(Wentworth).-95.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Twenty-one Members.
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No. 8. ON AGRICULTURE AND COLONIZATION.
Messieurs
Achim,
Alguire,
Armstrong (Lambton), Armstrong (York, O.), Arthurs,
Ball,
Best,
Boivin,
Bourassa,
[Sir Robert Borden.1
McMillan,
Marcile (Bagot),
Marshall,
Meighen,
Merner,
Molloy,
Morphy,
Morris,
Morrison,
Bowman,
Broder,
Brouillard,
Buchanan,
Burrell,
Cash,
Champagne,
Chisholm,
Clark (Red Deer), Clarke (Wellington), Cromwell,
Cruise,
Currie,
Delisle,
Donaldson,
Douglas,
Edwards,
Elliot,
Fortier,
Gauthier (Gaspg), Gauvreau,
Girard,
Glass,
Gordon,
Graham,
Guilbault,
Hanna,
Hartt,
Henderson,
Hughes (Sir Sam), Kay,
LanctQt,
Lewis,
MacNutt,
McCoig,
McCraney,
McCrea,
McLean
(Queens, P.E.I.),
Munson,
Neely,
Oliver,
Pacaud,
Paquet,
Paul,
Proulx,
Robb,
Roche,
Ross,
Kchaffner,
Scott,
^6guin,
Sexsmith,
Sharpe,
Sinclair,
Smith,
Steele,
Stewart (Lunenburg), Sutherland,
Taylor,
Thoburn,
Thompson, (Yukon), Thomson (Qu'Appelle), Thornton,
Tremain,
Truax.
Turriff,
Walker,
Wallace,
Warnock,
Webster,
Weichel,
White (Renfrew), Wilcox,
Wilson (Laval), Wilson
(Wentworth), and Wrierht.-94.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Twelve Members.-
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No. 9. ON MARINE AND FISHERIES.
Messieurs
Alguire,
Barnard,
Boulay,
Bradbury,
Cardin,
Chisholm,
Clarke (Essex), Clements,
Copp,
Fowler,
Gauthier (Gasp6), Hazen,
Hughes (Kings, P.E.I.) Jameson,
Kyte,
Lafortune,
Lapointe
(Montreal, St. J.), Loggie,
McCurdy,
McKenzie,
McLean
(Queens, P.E.I.), Morrison,
Nicholson,
Pardee,
Power,
Robidoux,
S£vigny,
Shepherd,
Sinclair,
Stevens,
Stewart (Lunenburg), Taylor,
Truax,
Turgeon,
Wallace, and Wilcox.-36.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Ten Members.
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No. 10. ON MINES AND MINERALS.
Arthurs,
Blondin,
Carrick,
Carroll,
Messieurs
Loggie,
Macdonald,
McMillan,
Marcil (Bonaventure),

Cochrane,
Cockshutt,
Devlin,
Douglas,
Green,
Guilbault,
Hartt,
Hepburn,
Lalor,
Lemieux,
Lewis,
Merner,
Mondou,
Nesbitt,
Osier (Sir Edmund), Sexsmith,
Shepherd,
Smith,
Smyth,
Thompson (Yukon), Turriff, and Walker.-30
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Ten Members.
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No. 11. ON FORESTS, WATERWAYS AND WATER-POWERS.
Messieurs
Ames (Sir Herbert), Barrette,
Boland,
Bellemare,
Blain,
Bourassa,
Bowman,
Brabazon,
Champagne,
Charlton,
Cochrane,
Cromwell,
Cruise,
Davidson,
Donaldson,
Ethier,
Green,
Henderson,
Michaud,
Munson,
Osier (Sir Edmund), Patenaude,
Perley (Sir George), Rogers,
Stewart (Hamilton ), Thoburn,
Warnock,
Webster,
White (Victoria, Alta.) Wilson (Laval), and Wright.-31.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Ten Members.
No. 12.

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Messieurs
Ames (Sir Herbert), Burnham,
Descarries,
Devlin,
Foster (Sir George), Hanna,*
Lapointe
(Montreal, St. J.),
Lemieux,
Marcil (Bonaventure), Perley (Sir George), Rainville,
Schaffner, and Taylor.-13.
And that the Quorum of the said Committee do consist of Five Members.
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No. 13. ON THE LIBRARY.
Messieurs
Boland,	Foster (Sir George),
Borden (Sir Robert), Baurier (Sir Wilfrid), Boyer,	Lemieux,
Broder,	Lewis,
Clark (Bruce),	Meighen,
Copp,	Pardee,
Crothers,	Pugsley, and
Doherty,	SSvigny.-16.
Sir ROBERT BORDEN moved:: That the Select Standing Committees of this House shall severally be empowered, to examine and inquire into all such matters and things as may be referred to them by the House, and to report from time to time their
observations and opinions thereon, with power to send for persons, papers and records, with the exception of the Committee on Debates and that on the Library of Parliament.


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Motion agreed to.

Robert Laird Borden: That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their Honours that this House will unite with them in the formation of a joint committee of both Houses on the subject of the Printing of Parliament, and that the members of the Select Standing Committee on Printing, viz.: Messrs. Bickerdike, Bowman, Brabazon, Brouillard, Buchanan, Burnham, Cardin, Chabot, Clark (Bruce), Clarke (Wellington), Currie, Douglas, Elliot, Graham, Marshall, Martin, Middlebro, Murphy, Nicholson, Roche, Roehon, Stevens, Verville, White (Victoria, Alta.) and Wilson (Wentworth), will act as members on the part of this House on the said Joint Committee on the Printing of Parliament.


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Motion agreed to.

Robert Laird Borden: That a message be sent to the Senate to inform their Honours that this House has appointed Messrs. Bdland, Borden (Sir Robert), Boyer, Broder, Clark (Bruce), Copp, Crothers, Doherty, Foster (Sir George), Laurier (Sir Wilfrid), Lemieux, Lewis, Meighen, Pardee, Pugsley and Sdvigny, a committee to assist His Honour the Speaker in the direction of the Library of Parliament, so far as the interests of the House of Commons are concerned, and to act on behalf of the House of Commons as members of a Joint Committee of both Houses on the Library.
Motion 'agreed to.



THE PARLIAMENTARY RESTAURANT.

Robert Laird Borden: That Messrs. Fripp, Pardee, Ross and Stanfield, be appointed to assist Mr. Speaker in the direction of the Restaurant, as far as the interests of the Commons are concerned, and to act as members of a Joint Committee of both Houses on the Restaurant, and that a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their Honours therewith.
Motion agreed to:



REPORT.

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Report by the officer in charge of the Canadian War Records Office-Sir Robert Borden.

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A message from His Excellency the Governor General, transmitting Estimates for the year ending March 31, 1918, was presented by Sir Thomas White (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the House and referred to the Committee of Supply.	l
30C


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Mr. GEORGE E. McCRANEY (Saskatoon) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 18, to amend the Railway Act. He said: The proposed amendment is intended to give to Cabinet Ministers of provincial governments the same rights of free transportation throughout Canada as senators and members of the House of Commons now have. It further gives to members of the Legislative Councils and Legislative Assemblies free transportation within the provinces which they represent.
The various railway companies now give them passes and this legislation would add no burden to them. It would, however, relieve members of provincial parliaments from any suggestion that in their dealings as legislators with the railway companies they might be influenced by the receipt of passes from the companies. ' The relationship would then be one founded on statute and not on the favour of the company. The proposed amendment is:-
1.	Section 343 of the Railway Act. Chapter 37 of the Revised Statutes of Canada is amended by inserting after the words "House of Commons of Canada" in the third line thereof the words: "and to members of the Executive Councils of the Provinces of Canada, and within the provinces in which they reside, to members of the Legislative Councils and Legislative Assemblies of the Provinces of Canada."
Motion agreed to and Bill read the first time.

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Bill No. 14, An Act respecting The Grain Growers' Grain Company, Limited, and to authorize it to change its name to " United Grain Growers, Limited."-Mr. Bradbury.
Bill No. 15, An Act respecting the Saint John Board of Trade.-Mr. Pugsley.
Bill No. 16, An Act to confirm certain agreements made between The Vancouver, Victoria and Eastern Railway ,and Navigation Company and The Canadian Northern Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. Stevens.
Bill No. 17, An Act respecting The Western Dominion Railway Company.-Mr. Smyth.

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(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. PUGSLEY:: 1.	Is the Government aware that the Entente Allies have agreed that, as one of the terms [Sir Robert Borden.1
of peace with which the present European War will be concluded, Russia shall be given Constantinople and the Dardanelles?
2.	Was the Government of Canada consulted regarding such agreement?
3.	If so, did it approve thereof?
4.	Has this Government been informed by the British Government that the Overseas Dominions would be consulted as to peace terms?
5.	If so, when was the Government so informed?


Robert Laird Borden: 
STEAM TRAWLERS.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Has an order in council been passed permitting steam trawlers to operate outside a three-mile limit and inside a twelve-mile limit?
2.	If so, what is the date of said order?
3.	At whose request was this done?
4.	How many steam trawlers operated in Canadian waters in 1916?
5.	How many are on the Canadian registry?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Yes, during the portion of the year from January 18 to April 30, excepting in Chedabucto and St. Peter's bays, where such trawling is allowed from the 1st February to the 30th. April. During these portions of the year trawling up to the three mile limit will not interfere with inshore fishermen, and will enable the landing of larger quantities of fish at the time when producers find it difficult to fill demands.
2.	December 28, 1916.

3.	On the recommendation of the Minister of the Naval Service following advice by his officers.
4.	Two.
5.	None, as such.


CANADIAN GOVERNMENT RAIRWAYS- TENDERS FOR ICE.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Were tenders asked for supplying ice to the Canadian Government Railway at Mulgrave this season?
2.	If so, what was the name of each tenderer and the respective amounts of each tender?
3.	To whom was the contract awarded?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Dan Johnston, Tracadie, N.S., $1.15 per ton, delivered and packed in icehouse. S. W. Hagerty, Mulgrave, N.S., 60 cents per ton, delivered on cars at Point Tupper, N.S., or $1.05 per ton, delivered and packed in icehouse.
3.	S. W. Hagerty, $1.05 per ton, delivered and packed in icehouse.


THE FARMERS' BANK.
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Mr. LEMIEUX.
Is it the intention of the Government to reimburse the shareholders of the defunct Farmers' Bank?
Sir THOMAS WHITE:: It is not the intention of the Government to introduce legislation foT the purpose during the present session.


BOYAR NORTH WEST MOUNTED PORICE.
Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	Is the Royal North West Mounted Police force now engaged in enforcing law in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta to De withdrawn from the authority of the respective Provincial Governments?
2.	If so, at what date is this withdrawal to take place?
3.	Is the force to remain in the provinces?
4.	In what duty is it to be employed?


Robert Laird Borden: I had expected
to be able to lay on the table of the House to-day the orders in council which answer this question. I hope to have the answer to-morrow.


REMOVAR OF RAIDS FROM CANADIAN NORTHERN RAIRWAY.
Mr. OLIVER:: [DOT]
1.	Are the rails on the Canadian Northern Railway on the main line west of Edmonton to be taken up?
2.	If so, at what time are they to be taken up?
3.	What use is to be made of them?
4.	What price is to be paid the railway company for them?
5.	From what treasury will the funds come to make payment?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	No.
2,	3, 4 and 5. Answered by No. 1.


RANCH REASES IN ARBERTA.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	Are any ranch leases in Alberta held by George Hoadley of Okotoks?
2.	If so, what is their extent and where are they located?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


MR. J. W. HYDE.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	Was J. W. Hyde, late Indian agent on the Blood Indian Reserve at Macleod, removed from this position by Order in Council?


Mr. ROCHE:: Yes.


OID-BORING MACHINERY.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	What was the value of the oil-boring machinery, including casings, brought into Alberta through the Calgary port of customs in the years 1914, 1915 and 1916?
2.	Who were the importers, and what was the amount of duty paid?


Mr. REID:: 1.	Dutiable oil boring machinery is not separately classified in the customs returns as compiled, and it would require a special compilation and considerable time to obtain this information.
The value of ''well-drilling machinery and apparatus of a class or kind not .made in Canada, for drilling for water, natural gas, or oil, and for prospecting for minerals, not including motive power " entered for consumption at the port of Calgary during the fiscal yeaTS ended 31st March, 1914, 1915 and 1916, respectively, was as follows: 191314, $4,415; 1914-15, $191,992; 1915-16, $39.
2.	This well-drilling machinery was entered duty free. It is not usual to give the names of individual importers entering goods through the customs.


MEDICINE HAT MIBITARY RESERVE.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	Is the military reserve north of Medicine Hat being used for the purpose for which it was secured?
2.	Has any request been made to have a portion of this reserve opened for homestead purposes?
3.	If so, what action does the Government purpose taking?


Mr. KEMP:: 1.	This area, which was transferred from the Department of the Interior to the De-

partment of Militia and Defence as a permanent reserve for the use of the Department of Militia and Defence as a remount depot amd training area, was leased to the National Live Stock Exchange, Ltd., for the purpose of training remounts.
2.	Yes-but, in any case, as the reserve will be required for a training area, it will not be available for homestead purposes.
3.	Answered by No. 2.


CHICAGO DRAINAGE CANAL.
Mr. GRAHAM:: .
1.	Is the Government aware that the Conference Committee of the United States Senate struck out from the Rivers and Harbours Bill, a clause limiting the amount of water which can be diverted from Lake Michigan for the Illinois river improvement?
2.	Has any report been made to show what detrimental effect this may have on the water level of the Great Lakes and rivers connecting them with the sea?


Mr. HAZEN:: Nos. 1 and 2. The Government is aware that a conference committee of both Houses of Congress of the United States eliminated from the Rivers and Harbours Bill for 1916 an amendment authorizing and approving a proposed expenditure of $5,000,000 by the legislature of the state of Illinois fori the purpose of improving navigation of the Illinois river.
This amendment contained a provision to the effect that the amount of water to be diverted from lake Michigan through "this system of water ways " should at no time exceed 250,000 cubic feet per minute.
The elimination of the entire amendment left the matter as it was previous to the introduction of the Bill.
The permit issued by the United States Secretary for War on December 5, 1901, limits the amount of water to be diverted from lake Michigan through what is known as the Chicago drainage canal to 250,000 cubic feet per minute. That permit has not in the meantime been modified or changed.


SEED GRAIN INDEBTEDNESS.
Mr. McCRANEY:: 1.	What indebtedness was incurred to the Dominion Government by the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta respectively, for seed grain supplied to settlers on patented lands in these provinces in 1908?
2.	What amount is still owing by each of these provinces in respect of these advances?
3.	What was the amount of seed grain indebtedness by settlers on unpatented lands in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta respectively, for seed grain supplied in 1908, and what amounts are still owing in each province in respect of same?

4.	What amount is now owing by settlers in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta respectively, for advances of seed grain prior to 1915?
5.	What were the total advances for seed grain and fodder to settlers in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta respectively, in 1914, 1915 and 1916, and what amounts are still owing in each province in respect of same?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Province of Saskatchewan ..$ 714,944 09
Province of Alberta	 150,914 30
2.	Province of Saskatchewan including interest	
300,459 84Province of Alberta, including interest	
5,472	523.	Province of Saskatchewan .	326,511	96Province of Alberta	
75,109	803a. Amount still o wing in provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta	
4,443	834.	Provinces of Saskatchewanand Alberta	
233,536	465.	Provinces of Saskatchewanand Alberta, 1914	
60,462	46
Province of Saskatchewan,
1915	and 1916	 8,655,144	29
Province of Alberta, 1915 and
1916	
3,542,223	38Amount still owing in provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta, 1914	
54,716	16
Amount still owing in province of Saskatchewan, 1915
and 1916	 5,498,480	16
Amount still owing in province of Alberta, 1915 and 1916	 2,143,675 98


SHERBROOKE EXHIBITION GROUNDS.
Mr. McCREA:: 1.	Did the Government have the use of the Sherbrooke Exhibition Association grounds and buildings for a military training camp in the years 1915 and 1916?
2.	If so, did they pay anything to the said Association for damages or repairs to grounds and buildings, and how much for each year?
3.	Did the Government pay anything to any other person or persons for damages to property left or stores on said grounds or in said buildings?
4.	If so, what is the name of the party or parties to whom such payments were made?
5.	What amount was paid to each person?
6.	What was, in detail, the kind or nature of gqpds so damaged?


Mr. KEMP:: 1.	Yes. From January, 1915, to August, 1915, and from October, 1915, to July, 1916.
2.	Yee. $5,000 to August, 1915, and $1,050 to July, 1916. Repairs account, damages.
3.	No payments were made by the Government to any other person or persons for damages to property left or stored on the

said grounds or in the said buildings. If any such payments were made they were paid by the Eastern Townships Agricultural Association.
4.	Answered by No. 3.
5.	Answered by No. 3.
6.	Answered by No. 3.
fpaserville recruiting station.


*Mr. GAUVREAU:: 1.	Does the Department of Militia and Defence pay rent for a shop at FraserviHe, which has been used for the purpose of a drill hall and armoury for recruits?
2.	What amount has been spent either by the Department of Militia and Defence or the Public Works Department for the heating apparatus, lighting plant, water supply and furnishings of such buildings?
3.	Who is the proprietor of said building?
4.	What does the Government intend to do with this building now that there are no more recruits at Fraserville ?


Mr. KEMP:: 1.	Yes.
2.	$2,146.60 (from 19th May, 1914, to date.)
3.	S. C. Riou.
4.	This question is irrelevant, as it contains a statement of fact.
QUEBEC & SAGUENAY RAILWAY.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	Has the Government purchased the Quebec and Saguenay Railway?
2.	If so, on what date and at what price?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	An agreement to purchase has been entered into, pursuant to the Statutes of Canada, 1916, Cap. 22 This agreement has already been laid upon the table of the House.
2.	The agreement is dated July 25, 1916. The price is to be fixed by the Exchequer Court, in accordance with the terms of the above statute.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	Has the Government entered into a contract with the Quebec and Saguenay Railway Company for the completion of said railway?
2.	If so, at what date, and upon what terms?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	The Quebec and Saguenay railway is being completed by the companies under the conditions set out in the copy of the order in council.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


ADVANCES FOR SEED GRAIN.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	What amount was advanced for seed grain and relief in the Dominion Lands Districts of Lethbridge and Medicine Hat in the years 1914 and 1915?
2.	How much has been repaid in each of the years 1915, 1916, and up to January 15, 1917?
3.	What was the total amount advanced in Alberta and Saskatchewan in 1914 and 1915?
4.	What is the total amount so far returned?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	$2,190,045.93.
2.	Amount repaid, 1915 .... $259,036 34 Amount repaid, 1916 .. .. 655,912 65 Amount repaid, 1917, (15th
January)	 59,170 82
Total	$974,119 81
3.	$12,197,367.67.
4.	$4,652,894.52.


GOVERNMENT RAILWAYS-FREIGHT
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	How many men were employed in the freight handling by the Railway Department at Pictou in conection with the winter service during the month of December, 1916?
2.	How many men were employed for same purpose in the same service during the month of December, 1915, by the Marine Department?


Mr. PATENAUDE:: 1.	There were eighteen permanent employees and one hundred temporary labourers and longshoremen.
2.	The handling of the freight under the Department of Marine and Fisheries, in December, 1915, was performed by contract, and the department has no record of the number of men employed.


MILITARY SUPPLIES.
Mr. MACDONALD:: Who were the contractors, in December, 1916, for furnishing supplies for the troops at Trenton and Pictou, respectively, in the county of Pictou?


Mr. KEMP:: Trenton-Meats and lard, Harris Abattoir Co.; bread, Dominion Fish & Fruit Co.; bread, F. A. Mulligan (Hygienic Bakery); groceries, Jas. McArthur; jams and marmalade, T. Upton Co.; potatoes and vegetables, A. H. King; coal oil, Imperial Oil Co.; straw for men's bedding, J. B. Strickland.
Pictou-Fish and corned beef, Pope Bros.; groceries, John Munro; potatoes and vegetables, John Munro; bacon and lard, John Munro; jams and marmalade, Dominion Canners; coal oil, Imperial Oil Co.; bread, Jas. D. McDonald.


MR. A. DE WITT FOSTER.
Mr. KAY:: 1.	Is Mr. A. De Witt Foster, late member for Kings, Nova Scotia, employed by the Gov-

ernment or any department thereof, or is he in any way representing the Government?
2.	If so, what is he doing, and what salary does he receive?


Sir ROBERT BORDEN:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
INDIAN LANDS; DIGBY, N.S.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Were any Indian lands in Digby County leased to one Mr. Torrie, during the past three years ?
2.	If so, where are such lands situated, what are the terms of the lease and the rentals stipulated therein?


PROHIBITION OF OLEOMARGARINE.
Mr. KAY:: 1.	is it the intention of the Government, during the present session, to make any change in the law which prohibits the manufacture, importation and sale of oleomargarine?


Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Any necessary announcement with respect to this matter will be made in due course.	.	'	[DOT]


PICTOU, N.S., MARINE AGENCY.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Has any appointment been made to fill the agency of Marine and Fisheries at Pictou, Nova Scotiai vacated by the death of W. H. Noonan?
2.	If so, who is the appointee?
3.	If not, will the vacancy be filled?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	John R. Davies.
3.	Answered by No. 2.


GOVERNMENT RAILWAY LEVEL CROSSING.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Is the Railway Department aware of the dangerous nature of the crossing on the Canadian Government Railway north of the Eastern Car Works at Trenton, Pictou county?
2.	If so, Is it the intention of the railway to construct a subway to remove the danger?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	The elimination of the level crossing on the Pictou Harbour branch, north of the Eastern Car Works at Trenton, Pictou county, has been given consideration.
2.	An item has been placed in this year's Estimates for the construction of a subway at this point.


WHARF AT MTJCHABOOM.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Was any survey made for a proposed wharf at Muchaboom, Halifax County, in the calendar year 1916?
2.	If so, by whom, and what was the cost of same?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Made by Messrs. Cox and Mosher of District Engineer Morrison's staff at a cost of $28.05.


Mir. ROCHE:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by Np. 1.
HALIFAX & EASTERN RAILWAY.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Were Messrs. Chisholm, McDonald and McGregor, contractors for the construction of cribwork at McCurdy's on the Halifax and Eastern Railway paid for such work?
2.	If so, what was the total amount paid in connection therewith?
3.	What was the date and amount of the last payment?


Mt. COCHRANE:: 1. Messrs. Chisholm, McDonald and McGregor were not contractors for the Department of Railways and Canals, and therefore no amount has been paid them.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. 1.


CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE DUTIES ON LIQUOR.
Mr. L. A. LAPOINTE:: 1.	What has been the net and gross revenue derived by the Customs Department from the importation of alcoholic liquors and beers of all kinds during each of the fiscal years ending March 31, 1914, March 31, 1915, and March 31, 1916?
2.	What other revenues, if any, have been derived by the Customs Department from the same source during the above period?
3.	What has been the net and gross revenue derived by the Inland Revenue Department from the manufacture or importation of alcoholic liquors or beers of all kinds during each of the above-mentioned fiscal years?


Mr. PATENAUDE:: 1. Custom's duties collected:
Fiscal year ended March 31, 1914 $10,157,647 S *
2.	Nil.
3.	Malt and Liquor.
1914	.	.	$166,466	071915	.	.	148,303	231916	.	.	102,379	451915	8,889,734 651916	7,776,472 19
Spirits.
1914	.. $9,038,028 07
1915	. .	8,706,481	421916	. .	8,701,074	78


STONE FOR THE NEW PARLIAMENT BUILDING.
[Stage Direction]
* Mr. MURPHY:
1.	In the construction of the new Parliament Building will stone from the Tyndall Quarry in Manitoba be used?
2.	If so, what quantity of the said stone is to be used, and what will be its cost per cubic yard or foot delivered at the works on Parliament Hill?

3.	What quantity of the said stone has been delivered up to January 25, 1917?
Mr. ROGERS:: 1 and 3. Whether stone from the Tyndall quarry in Manitoba is to he used in the reconstruction of the Parliament building is still under consideration by the Joint Committee on the reconstruction of the Parliament building.
2. In the event of it being decided to use this stone, 138,000 cubic feet will be required. This stone is quoted at $1.02 per cubic foot, f.o.b. Ottawa. The cartage from the Canadian Pacific Railway terminal to the stone shop on Sussex street is 30 cents per ton, giving an additional cost of 2-4 cents per cubic foot, or $1.04-4 per cubic foot at the stone shop.
*	Mr. MURPHY:
1.	In the construction of the new Parliament Building will stone from the Wallace Quarry in Nova Scotia be used?
2.	If so, what quantity of the said stone is to be used, and what will be its cost per cubic yard or foot delivered at the works on Parliament Hill?
3.	What quantity of the said stone has been delivered up to January 25, 1917?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Forty thousand cubic feet will be required, to be delivered in quarry blocks at the stone shop on Sussex street, for 75-4 cents per cubic foot.
3.	Thirty-one thousand five hundred and fifty cubic feet.
*	Mr. MURPHY:
1.	Prior to November 11, 1916, how many cubic yards of rock had been excavated at the site of the new Parliament Building?
2.	What was the total cost of excavating the said quantity of rock?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Nine thousand six hundred and fifty-one cubic yards.
2.	Thirty-seven thousand three hundred and fifteen dollars and sixty-eight cents.
. MONTREAL PUBLIC BUILDING.
*	Mr. MURPHY:
1.	Is the Government, or any department thereof, erecting a building in the rear of, and connected with, the post office sub-station occupying the premises formerly known as the Carslake Hotel on St. James street, in the City of Montreal?
2.	If so, (a) who has the contract for such building, (b) and was the said contract awarded after public advertisement and tender?
3.	If tenders were not advertised for, how was the contract awarded, and the prices fixed?
4.	What is to be the total cost of the said building?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes, the Department of Public Works is erecting a shed and covered passageway to be used by the Post Office Department.
2.	(a) E. T. Verbanise. (b) Yes, tenders were invited by public advertisement and the contract was' awarded to the lowest.
3.	Answered as above.
4.	Contract price $7,490, and a unit price of $1.30 per cubic yard for excavation, and $8.50 for concrete foundations, if required.


MUNITIONS BOARD CLERKS.
Mr. McKENZIE:: 1.	Are the clerks employed in the Munitions branch of the Government permanent or temporary?
2.	Are they paid on the average better salaries than the permanent clerks of the other departments of the Government Service?
3.	Is the Government aware as to whether or not some of the women clerks receive over one hundred dollars per month and some of the men over two hundred dollars per month?
4.	What is the highest salary paid (a) to a man; and (b) to a woman?
5.	Have these clerks any special or technical knowledge entitling them to the higher salaries?
6.	Are the clerks of the Munitions branch paid higher salaries than those who are' permanent in other departments of the Government Service? If so, why?
I Sir ROBERT BORDEN: The reference in this question is apparently to the Imperial Munitions Board, which is not a branch of tHe Canadian Government, and of which the administration is not under the control of the Canadian Government. The Government has no information as to the salaries paid to the clerks and other employees of the Imperial Munitions Board, and those salaries are determined altogether by the British Government through that Board. The Canadian Government has no information as to the special or technical knowledge possessed by the several clerks and employees of the Imperial Munitions. Board.


SEED GRAIN-COLLECTION OP ADVANCES.
Mr. BUCHANAN:: 1.	What officials are engaged in the collection of the Government advances for seed grain and relief in Saskatchewan and Alberta?
2.	Were the homestead inspectors used in every land district affected? If not, why not?
3.	What are the salaries paid those persons apart from regular departmental officials engaged in this work?
4.	What are the names of these persons?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1. Chief Inspector H. G. Cuttle, Inspector Thomas Bronsdon, a number of clerks out of the Land and Immigration offices and about half the homestead inspectors.



2.	Yes. About half the homestead inspectors were used in connection with seed grain and relief collections. It was necessary to retain half of the homestead inspectors at their regular duties in order to keep up the most important homestead inspections.
3.	One hundred dollars per month.
4.	T. Brownlee, T. Carmichael, T. H. Cochrane, A. Hardy, J. B. Hawkes, J. D. Mitchell, A. Sipes and H. A. J. Scott.


STANLEY McCUTCHEON.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Was Stanley McCutcheon, preventive officer at Sonora, N. S., dismissed?
2.	It so, why and when? [DOT]
3.	At whose request was he dismissed?
4.	Was there an investigation?
5.	It so, by whom?
6.	Was a successor appointed?
7.	If so, at whose instance?
8.	What is the salary connected with tht office?


Mr. REID:: 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. The employment of Mr. Stanley McCutcheon, acting preventive officer of customs at Sonora, N.S., was discontinued on the 20th November, 1916, in accordance with the terms of his letter of appointment dated 27th December, 1907.
6.	Yes.
7.	Minister of Customs.
8.	$150 a year.	_


L. B. DODGE-HAY PURCHASES.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1. What amount, if any, was paid to D. B. Dodge of Middleton, N.S., as salary and expenses, in the calendar year 1916, for the purchase of hay for the Government of Canada?
2 What quantity of hay was purchased by Mr. Dodge?


Mr. BURRELL:: No hay was purchased by L. B. Dodge for the Government of Canada.


QUESTION TO STAND FOR SPEAKER'S RULING.
[Stage Direction]
On the question by Mr. McKenzie:
1.	Is the Minister of Justice aware, either officially or by common report, as to whether or not the Post Office Department, during the spring or summer of 1916, issued an order excluding from the mails a certain news sheet called Racing Form, published in the United States, containing advance information or tips on horse races to be run in Canada and the United States?
2.	Is the minister aware, either officially or by common report, as to whether or not said news sheets are still being imported into Canada through the medium of the railway express companies?
3.	Did the minister observe in the press, or was he informed that statements had been

made by officials of the Justice Department to the effect that it was not the intention of said department to prohibit said express companies from bringing into Canada said news sheets?
4.	Was the minister approached on the subject, either personally or by correspondence, either in favour of or against the importation of said news sheets by said express companies?
5.	Is the minister aware of the provisions of Chapter 10 of the Acts of 1910 (Federal), section 3 and subsections f and h, which impose a penalty of $1,000 with a year's imprisonment upon persons dealing in news sheets of the type of said Racing Form?
6.	If the above statute is not being enforced against said express companies, will the minister state the reason for such non-enforcement?
T. Is it the intention of the minister to permit the importation of said news sheets by said express companies?
8.	Is the minister aware as to whether or not very large sums of money are wagered and lost every day and week by the young men and women of Canada, as the result of information given them through the medium of said sheet known as the Racing Form?
9.	Is the Government aware of the following provision of the statutes, Chapter 10 of the Acts of 1910, section 3, sub-section f- "Every one is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to one year's imprisonment and to a fine of $1,000 who: '(f) advertises, prints, publishes, exhibits, posts up, sells or supplies, or offers to sell or supply, any information intended to assist in, or intended for use in connection with book-making, pool selling or wagering upon any horse race or other race, fight, game or sport, (h) Wilfully and knowingly sends, transmits, delivers or receives any message by telegraph, telegram, mail or express, conveying information relating to book-making, pool selling, betting or wagering' "?
Mr. SPEAKER:: I would ask that this
question stand, to afford me an opportunity of consulting the authorities -more fully. As at present advised, the question, to be in order, will have to -be amended, if not entirely eliminated.


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. Buchanan.

For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other correspondence in connection with the suspension of F. D. Shaw, collector of customs at Lethbridge, Alberta.
Mr. Lemieux.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams and reports addressed to and Received by the Minister of Trade and Commerce during 1916, to promote better trade relations between Canada and France.
Mr. Lemieux.-For a tabulated statement showing the number of divorces granted by the Parliament of Canada since 1867.
Mr. McCraney.-For a copy of all documents, letters, messages, correspondence, reports, and particularly an order in council dated 6th December, 1898, respecting the exemption from military service of the Doukhobors.
Mr. Graham.-For a copy of all correspondence between any member of the Government and Sir Thomas Tait referring to his appointment to, and resignation from, the National Service Board.

Mr. Graham.-For a copy of all correspondence between Mr. Murray, secretary of the Manufacturers' Association, and any member of the Government, or Sir Thomas Tait, as head of the National Service Board, concerning his suggested appointment as secretary of the National Service Board.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams, papers and documents of any kind relative to the appointment of the assistant to Superintendent Hallisecy at Halifax, which was objected to, as alleged, by Mr. Stanfield, M.P.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a return showing a list of all persons employed for the first time during the year 1916 on the Oxford and New Glasgow division of the Canadian Government railways at Stellarton. New Glasgow and Pic-tou, as brakemen, telegraphers, and cleaners in roundhouse respectively, with the dates of their appointment.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents regarding the change, in the year 1916, in the mail contract for the service between French River and McGrath Mountain, in the county of Pictou.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all papers, letters, telegrams and other documents relative to the removal of Mr. H. D. McKenzie as mechanical foreman at Stellarton on the Canadian Government railways, and the appointment of his successor.
Mr. Verville.-For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and documents of all kinds exchanged between any person or persons and the Department of Labour or any other department of the Government relating to the labour trouble at Thetford Mines, P.Q., and also copies of all correspondence exchanged between the different departments of the Government respecting the same question.
Mr. A. K. Maclean.-For a return showing the quantities of timber cut, and the sum paid therefor, to date, under the lease or sale of timber made by the Indian Department to Mr. Arthur Webber from lands situated near Ship Harbour Lake. Halifax county, together with the name or names of all surveyors of the timber cut from the said Indian lands under the above-mentioned sale or lease, and copies of all reports made in connection therewith by said surveyors.
Mr. A. K. Maclean.-For a copy of all correspondence, vouchers, etc., in connection with the repairs to the Port Dufferin East Wharf. Halifax county, in 1915.
Mr. A. K. Maclean.-For a return showing all expenditures made since March 31, 1916, by the Public Works Department in the several provinces of Canada, specifying the name of the work, the amount already spent thereon, and the estimated total expenditure in each case.
Mr. A. K. Maclean.-For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, memoranda, etc., by and with the Department of Railways in connection with the naming of stations on the Halifax and Eastern railway.
Mr A. K. Maclean.-For a copy of all correspondence, vouchers, etc., in connection with the construction of a wharf at Ecum Secum West, Halifax county.
Mr. A K. Maclean.-For a copy of all correspondence, vouchers, etc., in connection with
the repairs to Harrigan Cove Wharf, Halifax county, in 1914-15, under the foremanship of James McDonald.
Mr. A. K. Maclean.-For a copy of all vouchers, correspondence, etc., in connection with the repairs to Beaver Harbour Wharf, Halifax county, within the last four years.
Mr. A. K. Maclean.-For a copy of all correspondence, vouchers, etc., in connection with the construction of the Port Dufferin West Wharf. Halifax county, in 1913-14.
Mr. A. K. Maclean.-For a copy of all correspondence, vouchers, etc., in connection with the construction of the Muchaboom Harbour Wharf, Halifax county, in 1913.
Mr. Cruise.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams, correspondence and other documents received by and issued from the Customs Department in connection with, the duty charged on farm implements imported or to be imported by the Grain Growers Grain Company of Winnipeg, since June 1, 1915.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of the report of Dr. Bruce on the hospital conditions for Canadian overseas soldiers, and of all evidence, if any, taken by him, along with copy of all correspondence, letters, cables and other documents in relation thereto, and also a copy of the proceedings of the Board presided over by Dr. Baptie in relation to the same subject, the evidence taken by the Board, and of all letters, cables and other documents in connection with the same.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents relative to an agreement or arrangement with the Pictou Longshoremen's Union made by Canadian Government railways in the spring of 1916, in regard to the handling of freight and coal at Pictou, and in regard to the discontinuance of same, and as to the existing arrangements for handling freight and coal at the same place.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all letters, papers, telegrams and other documents relative to the application for, and the granting of, a Conciliation Board to the employees of the Acadia Coal Company in the spring of 1916, the proceedings of said Board, and all other papers in relation to the same.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all letters, papers, telegrams and other documents relative to the application for, and the refusal to grant, a Conciliation Board as petitioned for under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act by the employees of the Canadian Government Railway at Pictou, who were members of the Longshoremen's Union at Pictou during the year 1916.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents relative to the removal of Mr. Spinney as trackmaster on the Short Line, so-called, of the Canadian Government railway, and to the appointment of Henry Gray as his successor.
Mr. Steele.-For a copy of all documents, letters, telegrams and other correspondence in the Department of the Interior relating to grazing leases numbers 2785, 2843, 3701, 3998. 4603, 5566, 6220 and 6221.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.-For a copy of all correspondence respecting the appointment of a commission to investigate the financial and economic condition of Canadian railways, showing the names of the commissioners, the rate of their remuneration, along with the names of
[Stage Direction]
. ________________________________L
the secretaries and engineers appointed by them, or by the commission, and the rate of their remuneration.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.-For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Dominion Government and the Provincial Governments inviting them to a conference on the subject of making provisions for returned soldiers, including a copy of the proceedings of the conference which took place on the 10th of January at Ottawa on the same subject.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.-For a copy of all correspondence exchanged with the Government of the province of Manitoba concerning a statute passed by the Legislature of Manitoba at its last stssion entitled, " An Act to amend the Jury Act"; together with copies of all ordeis in council respecting same.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.-For a copy of all correspondence addressed by the Canadian Society of Civil Engineers, or any branch or any member thereof, to the Government or any member thereof, on the subject of the appointment of foreign engineers to the exclusion of Canadian engineers on Canadian works.
Mr. Sinclair.-For a copy of all orders in council and other documents on file in the Department of Marine and Fisheries relating to the requisitioning of Canadian ships by the Canadian Government.
Mr. McCraney.-For a copy of all documents, letters, messages, correspondence, etc., respecting the termination of the agreements between the Government of Canada and the Governments of the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta in reference to the Royal Northwest Mounted Police.
Mr. Turriff.-For a copy of all letters and telegrams in the Post Office Department in reference to the removal of Pearson's post office, township of Casey, in the constituency of Nipissing, from where it was located to its present location.	.
Mr. Copp.-For a return showing the quantity of freight carried over the Grand Trunk Pacific railway between LSvis and Moncton since that portion of said railway has been operated by the Canadian Government Railways system.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all orders in council made respecting the direction, authority or control in England of the overseas forces of Canadd, showing any changes that may have been made from time to time therein. Also, copies of any opinions or reports made by the Department of Justice as to the status of Canadian overseas troops in Great Britain in relation to their control or direction.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of the order or orders in council providing for the appointment of a Minister of Militia in Great Britain and for the creation of a Militia Council there and for any appointments thereto or changes in said council.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. Pugsley.-1. What is the total value of the Oliver equipment, so-called, supplied to Canadian soldiers, who have crossed to England since the commencement of the present war?
2.	Was such equipment discarded when or soon after the Canadian soldiers wearing the same arrived in England?
3.	If so, what was done with the said equipment, and why was it discarded?

4.	What equipment was supplied in its place?
5.	Was such equipment so supplied in its place better than the Oliver equipment?
6.	If so, in what respects?
Mr. Sinclair.-1. What were the names, home addresses and former occupations of all censors, decoders or other employees of the Government in the different cable stations in Nova Scotia during the calendar year 1916?
2.	What is the name of the person who recommended each of the said censors, decoders or employees?
3.	What salary was paid to each of the said
persons for the calendar year 1916?	'
Mr. Graham.-1. How many men have been enlisted in Canada for overseas service?
2.	How many of these have been subsequently discharged as unfit?
3.	How many of these were discharged in Canada, and how many overseas?
Mr. Steele.-1. How many applicants for enlistment in the Canadian overseas forces have been rejected on account of being physically unfit?
2. How many have been discharged after enlistment for the same reason?
Mr. Carvell.-1. Were any changes made in the Ross Rifles Mark III, in England?
2.	What changes were made, and when were they made?
3.	Who gave the instructions for any changes made?
4.	Were they carried out under the supervision of the Militia Department by duly qualified experts?
5.	Were the rifles, as changed, duly proven according to War Office regulations, before they were given back to the Canadian troops?
Mr. Turriff.-1. What was the date of the last order given by the Government to the Ross Rifle Company?
2.	How many rifles were ordered?
3.	Was a recommendation of the British Army Council for the utilization of existing Canadian facilities in manufacturing the new and improved Dee-Enfield received by the Government?
4.	What was the date of the recommendation, and when was it received?
5.	Has the recommendation been acted upon?
Mr. Cruise.-1. What was the total number of Ross rifles made by order of the Government of Canada to date?
2.	What was the cost per-rifle?
3.	How many of these rifles are in the hands of Canadian soldiers in France?
4.	Are these rifles still being made?
5.	If they are not being made to the Government order, at what date did the making cease?
6.	What was the disposition made of the Ross rifles taken from the Canadian Forces in France when they were re-armed with Lee-Enflelds ?
7.	Has the Government any information as to whether the Ross Rifle Company is now making Lee-Enfield rifles for the British Government?
8.	Will the Government lay on the table the report of the Military Commission of inquiry regarding the Ross rifle, which sat in England in the year 1915?
Mr. C. A. Wilson.-1. Can the Government inform the House as to what was, on the 1st

December, 1916, the quantity of butter, cheese, eggs, fowl, turkeys in the cold storage buildings of the Dominion, particularly in the city of Montreal?
2. What was the value of these goo-'- '

[Stage Direction]
On the notice of motion:
That, whereas, in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, the _ provincial franchise has been granted to women by legislative enactment, and in British Columbia the electors have voted in favour of similar legislation:
Whereas it is provided in the Dominion Elec-_ tions Act that persons entitled to vote for members of a Provincial Legislature shall also be entitled to vote for members of Parliament, but in respect to Alberta and Saskatchewan- alone of all the provinces of Canada-it is provided that only males shall be entitled to vote for members of the Federal Parliament, thus creating an anomalous situation as between the provinces, which should be removed ;
Whereas during the present Empire struggle the women of Canada have shown a most intelligent and patriotic interest in, and an unselfish devotion to, the welfare of the state ;
And whereas it seems but just and right that they should be given a voice in the direction of its affairs;
In the opinion of this House it is desirable that provision be made either to grant to women who are qualified to vote for members of a Provincial Legislature, the right also to vote for members of the Dominion Parliament, or to grant to women throughout the Dominion the right to vote for members of Parliament, subject to such provisions and limitations as may seem reasonable to Parliament.-Mr Pugsley.
Mr. PUGSLEY:: In a short conversation which I had with my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers), who took a somewhat active part in a discussion on a similar resolution at the last session, it was suggested that this motion might .stand for the present; but I would remind my right hon. friend the Prime Minister that when the matter was before the House at the last session, he intimated that possibly the Government might take some action upon the subject. I would just call his attention to the matter so that it might be remembered when the resolution comes up again.


Robert Laird Borden: I shall be very glad to bear that in mind.
Notice stands.


NATIONAL SERVICE COMMISSION.
[Stage Direction]
Right hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Quebec East) moved:
For a copy of the order in council establishing the National Service Commission, giving the names of the members appointed and the rate of their remuneration.
Robert Laird Borden: I think this information has already been laid upon the table of the House.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: Not the order in council. I have not seen the order in council at all.


Robert Laird Borden: I was under the impression that it had been laid upon the table of the House.


William Pugsley: In connection with thi3 motion, I would like to call the attention of my right hon. friend to the fact that it has been stated in the press that the remuneration to the Director of the National Service has been fixed at $250 per month, in addition to travelling expenses. I also saw an intimation that the Director General, the hon. member for Calgary (Mr. R.* B. Bennett) would not be paid any salary. I understand, however, that there is upon the commission Mr. Green, one of the members for British Columbia, and I think my right hon. friend will agree with me that it will be a violation of the Independence of Parliament Act for him to be paid a salary. I would also call attention to the fact that one of those appointed to the commission is Mr. Tilley, who .is a representative of the city of St. John in the provincial legislature. The provincial statute expressly provides that for any member of the provincial legislature of New Brunswick to accept an appointment under the Dominion Government to which a salary is 'attached is a violation of the Act and Tenders his seat vacant. I do not knpw whether the attention of the Tight hon. gentleman has been called to this matter, but I thought it my duty to mention it. I have no objection to Mr. Tilley acting as a director, but, of course, he could not act as director and still continue to be a member of the legislature.


Robert Laird Borden: My attention
has not been directed to the New Brunswick .statute, nor am I informed as to the fact whether. Mr. Tilley is being paid remuneration for his services or not. Mr. Bennett is receiving no remuneration; he accepted the appointment distinctly on the condition that he would accept nothing for bis services. The same is true of Mr. Green, who is the other gentleman to whom the hon. member refers. I shall make inquiry about the New Brunswick statute.


William Pugsley: The right hon. gentleman will find it in the Act relating to the members of the legislature.


REMOVAL OF RAILWAY MATERIAL TO FRANCE.
Wilfrid Laurier: For a copy of all correspondence with the Imperial Government on the subject of sending to France rails and other railway material taken from existing Canadian railway lines, giving copies of orders in council and a statement of all action taken in regard to same.
He said: Some time ago a despatch appeared in the newspapers to the effect that the Canadian Government had been asked by the British authorities whether Canadia could dispense with rails npw in use, that they might be supplied for the construction of railway lines in France. I do not know whether there has been such correspondence, but in case there may have been, I move for dt.


Sfr ROBERT BORDEN:: There was, naturally, some correspondence on the subject; and the Canadian Government, after consultation with the several railway companies of the country and with the officers of the Intercolonial railway, were prepared to take certain action. This correspondence took place during my absence, therefore I am not wholly familiar with it; but I believe that in the end the extent of the requirements -was considerably cut down, as compared with what was stated at first. I do not know that I have seen all this correspondence myself, and I cannot speak as to the nature of it all, but the right hon. gentleman (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) will understand that some of the information as to the necessity for the rails would, possibly be of a character which would make it inexpedient to lay the correspondence on the table of the House. Should that be so, there would be no objection to submitting the secret -correspondence to my right hon. friend.


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not call for anything of a confidential nature. W-hat I wish to know especially is the action taken toy the Government in answer to -the inquiries made.	.


Frank Oliver: Some weeks ago a very
extraordinary announcement appeared in the public press-in the absence of the Prime Minister, as the right hon. gentleman (Sir Robert Borden) has just -stated- to the effect that the rails upon- certain railway lines in the Northwest would be taken up and sent to France. The newspapers stated very clearly that the Government was entering upon a definite policy, and that policy appeared to be the tearing up of rails
	j
on established railway lines in the western provinces, and particularly in northern Alberta. Of course, I do not assume that the Government has control of the press of the country to prevent such an-ouncements being -made; but I wish to say to the Government that when such announcements -are made so -publicly and so definitely as in this case they have a most disturbing influence upon the public mind and lead rto very important conclusions having a direct bearing upon the business of the localities affected. It was announced very definitely that the rails on the Canadian Northern west of Edmonton for a distance -of over two hundred miles were to be taken up. At that time contracts were in process of being let for taking out railway ties in *the wooded country through which this line, in -part, runs. I am unable now to -say whether these contracts were cancelled because o-f this announcement, but I am in a position to say that th-e question- whether they should be cancelled or not was seriously considered because of that -announcement, and a general dis-arrangeemnt o-f business was caused along the whole line. In the newspaper pre-ss there seemed to be a general consensus- o-f opinion th-at there were too many railroads in the Northwest and particularly in northern Alberta, -and that it would be entirely in the public interest to Ih-ave these railways taken up. I have taken occasion -several times to -draw the attention of the House to the fact that in northern- Alberta, so far from there being too many; there a-ro railroads there the grade of which has been completed for several year's, running through settled parts of the country, where the people are in desperate need of railway communication, -and the excuse is made by the railway-this -same Canadian Northern Railway 'Company-that they cannot get the rails to lay upon these lines, the money for the grading of which has been spent. It certainly -strikes the people in our part of the country -as entirely peculiar ' that, afteT the money has been voted, after guarantees have been given- by the provincial Government in the one case -and by the Dominion Government in the other in the full belief that these railroads were needed, and the railroads -having been completed in the case of the Dominion guarantees and partially completed in the case of tba provincial guarantees, the proposal should he sent broadcast through the country that the rails on the lines under Dominion guarantee should be taken up and the lines partially built under provincial

guarantee should remain without rails being placed upon them, on the general assumption that there are too many railroads in the Northwest at the present time and that the public money had been wasted in giving railroad accommodation to the people of that part of the country. I take this opportunity of pointing out to the Government how serious the business effect of such a report must necessarily be, and I can hardly think that the Government was doing right in permitting such a report to become current without promptly contradicting it if it had no foundation. In regard to the superabundance of railroads, there are people to-day in the constituency immediately to the east of that which I represent who have been living for years 100 and 120 miles from railway communication. I say that in such circumstances the idea that seems to prevail that there are too many railroads in that country is entirely mistaken.


Hon. FRANK COCHRANE (Minister of Railways):: The first request that came from the British Government for rails was for about 1,000 miles, and it was thought then that we should do anything in our power in order to help the British Government during the war. The intention in taking up the rails in the western part of Canada was to take" them from 'stretches where the Grand Trunk Pacific railway and the Canadian Northern railway parallel. It would certainly have been no hardship to take those up. When, owing to the difficulty of securing transportation overseas, the request was cut down to 300 miles, we decided to take the rails up at divisional 3 p.m. points of the Transcontinental railway, and that is what has
been done.


George Perry Graham: That would be sidings?


Francis Cochrane: At divisional points, the yards.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. CHARLES MARCIL:: My attention has been caked to a newspaper cutting dealing with the case of the Hon. Dr. Beland, the h,on. member for Beauce. I would like to know if there is anything new in his case. This newspaper points out that two Germans, one Baron von Polenz and another named Mundheim, have been liberated from internment camps in Canada. I would
ask Whether the release of these men would not have been a good opportunity for effecting an exchange in the case of Dr. Beland who, as we all know, has been a prisoner of war in Germany for about two years.


Robert Laird Borden: I am not familiar with the circumstances attending the alleged releases from the internment camps, but I do know that not only this Government, but the British Government have made every possible effort to secure the release or exchange of the Hon. Dr. Beland. In every instance I think I have made my Tight hon. friend the leader of the Opposition acquainted with what has been done. I have sent to him, and also to the hon. member for Rouvdlle '(Mr. Lemieux), and to another gentleman who wias a very intimate friend of Dr. Beland, the correspondence which from time to time has taken place. The difficulty with regard to this case, as well as to other cases, is that when very strong efforts are made to secure the liberation or the exchange of any person who is held by the German military authorities, that circumstance in itself seems to strengthen the determination of those authorities not to liberate or to exchange. I shall make inquiry of the Minister pf Justice as to the matter referred to by my hon. friend.


Charles Marcil: Can the Prime Minister ^complete his answer by saying who has control of the release of men interned in Canadian camps?
SIR ROBERT BORDEN:	The Minister
of Justice. All the internment operations are under his direction by authority of an order in council passed for the purpose.


MONTREAL CUSTOMS COLLECTORSHIP.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Charles Marcil: I notice in the Montreal morning papers a statement that Mr. R. S. White, collector of customs in Montreal, a highly respected official, is about to retire from the service, and that he has been replaced by Mr. Bertram, the collector in Toronto. Is there any truth in the report?


John Dowsley Reid: Mr. R. S. White, the
collector of customs in Montreal, applied for superannuation. He is over the age limit for superannuation, and I have asked for an order in council granting his superannuation. In the meantime, until his successor is appointed, I have transferred Mr. Bertram, the collector at Toronto, to Montreal to take charge there, as Montreal is
31*2

the most important port in the Dominion, and Mr. Bertram is one of the most experienced officials in the service. It is because he has the experience that I have transferred him.


Charles Marcil: Then is this appointment only temporary?


John Dowsley Reid: I have transferred Mr. Bertram temporarily, and have put in Mr. Bertram's place temporarily Mr. Blair, who is one of our best inspectors at Ottawa.


IMMIGRATION REGULATIONS.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR (Guysborough):: I am asked to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Roche) to the fact that hardship is being experienced by people on account of the rule applied to the deportation of children coming into Canada from the United States. I have had two cases drawn to my attention within the last few days in which women with their children were turned back from McAdam junction, New Brunswick, and required to travel long distances back to the places from which they had come in the United States to obtain health certificates for their children. One was the case of the wife of a Canadian soldier who is at the front, who had been visiting her father in New York, and who was returning with her child to her home in New Brunswick. On her way back home she was refused entrance into Canada because she did not have the necessary health certificate for her child. She was subjected to the necessity of making a return trip to New York to obtain this certificate. It looks like a case of unnecessary hardship. One would think that there would be a health officer at McAdam junction, or at other points at which people are entering Canada, to make an examination, if an examination is necessary. I would like to know from the Minister of the Interior, or from the right hon. the Prime Minister, if it is absolutely necessary to have such a rigid rule as that applied to people coming with children into Canada.


Robert Laird Borden: I shall direct the attention of the Minister of the Interior to the inquiry of my hon. friend, and ask him to give the information.


DEPARTMENT OF MILITIA.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Charles Marcil: I would like to ask the hon. the Minister of Militia and Defence

(Mr. Kemp) a question with regard to his department. I have a letter from a retired militia officer who would like to know if it is the policy of the department to allow a man who is now permanently in the service to fill another position at the same time, or if officers of the department are required to retire from their former positions and give their whole time to the public service. Is there any rule in regard to a case of that kind?


Albert Edward Kemp: What is the case in point?


Charles Marcil: Of course, I understand
that if an officer were overseas he would be required to give his whole time, but I would like to know if a man employed in the Department of Militia and Defence in Canada is required to give his whole time to the department; or will he have time to give to his former civilian duties as well as to his duties as an officer of the depart iment?


Albert Edward Kemp: There are a great many branches of the service under the control of the Department of Militia and Defence, and there are instances in which a man can attend to his own profession and also perform service to the department or the country. Unless the hon. gentleman has more specific information, I am afraid I cannot give him a more definite answer.


Charles Marcil: I am merely speaking of the case of an officer of the militia who has been permanently appointed to the force.


Albert Edward Kemp: I do not know of any such case, but I can find out. Would not my hon. friend give me the case in point, not publicly if he does not desire to do so, but confidentially, in order that I may look into it?


Charles Marcil: I wanted to know if there was a rule preventing that.
Mr. KEMP. There is a rule against a man doing anything that is dishonest. If my hon. friend has in mind some irregularity in regard to this matter I would say to him that there is no intention to countenance anything of the sort.


Charles Marcil: 
CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. OLIVER J. WILCOX (North Essex) moved the second reading of Bill No. 2, to amend the Criminal Code.
He said: The Bill, which I now propose to be read a second time, is intended to add a provision to sub-section 2 of section 235 of the Criminal Code, as enacted by chapter 19 of the statutes of 1912. This statute was passed in 1910 and assented to in 1912. The statute of 1910, or 1912, was intended to have dealt effectively with certain abuses that had developed throughout the country in connection with the extensive race meets held by various racing associations. The legislation as so passed has not proved effective. The racing men, or those who have been inclined to he speculative, have broken through this statute; if not by word, by action, they have declared it to be a scrap of paper. By digging up antediluvian charters and galvanizing them into life and by establishing different units in the same community, they are-now having a greater number of days' racing in a locality than they had previous to the legislation that was passed in 1910 and which was calculated to limit the evils of the race course. The object I had in introducing this Bill was to make clear the intention of this Parliament and as the result of the full and careful investigation which I have made into the subject I do not expect that it will prove to be contentious in character. In view of the fact that there are in the country certain men interested in the question, some of whom are interested in suppressing the operation of race tracks entirely and some who do not like the idea of any limitation whatever, I desire to go fully into an explanation of what I regard as the actual situation and the evils incident thereto in connection with these associations.
The other day I read a very long article in the Toronto Globe by Mr. Raney, a very distinguished and honourable gentleman of the city of Toronto, written on behalf of the Social Reform Council of the Dominion of Canada. There is one statement that he made in connection with the legislation of 1910 with which I do not agree. He said that the reason why the Miller Bill, which sought to eliminate race track gambling throughout the Dominion, was not effective for the reason that Sir Allen Aylesworth, then Minister of Justice, opposed the Bill, and for the further reason that certain gentlemen high up in politics were interested in this institution, and men with strong financial means were backing them. It is my view that the Bill was considered on its merits. We all remember the late Mr. Miller, who introduced his Bill in the House in 1910. I think the House will agree that his presentation of the case was fraught with honour to' himself, with discretion and skill. Mir. Miller was responsible for the appointment of a commission by my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition, then Prime Minister of Canada.
I was present at the meetings that were held in Ottawa, which were attended by men from one end of the Dominion to the other, and men were even brought from the state of New York, at one time one of the greatest racing states in the Union. Mr. Hughes, a candidate in the recent Presidential election, succeeded in getting a law passed some time ago that made race track gambling a crime within the state of New York, and so important did he consider that legislation, that in hi3 campaign literature reference was made to it as one of the outstanding accomplishments of bis public life.
These men that I have spoken of, representing the Racing Associations, the Horse Breeder's Associations, the Thoroughbred Associations, and the Social Reform Council of Canada, gathered together and gave evidence, and upon their evidence Parliament came to the conclusion that certain legislation should he passed to deal effectively with the situation. I repeat, that in view of the full and complete investigation, lasting for days and weeks, that Parliament made of this question, both in the House and in committee. Mr. Raney is hardly justified in insinuating that the men who composed Parliament at that time were actuated by any other motive than the consideration of the case on its merits-. The commission that my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister, appointed at that time was composed of Mr. Miller, chairman, Mr. Blain, Mr. McCall, Mr. Martin, M.P. for Regina, now premier of Saskatchewan, Mr. Stratton, Mr. Sinclair, and Mr. Monk.
Racing in Canada was organized, as I understand from my study of the subject, in the year 1860. Queen Victoria set aside a certain sum of money to purchase what was kn.own as the Queen's Cup. This trophy was given to encourage racing, with the idea of developing the breeding of thoroughbred horses in Canada. As I understand, previous to the year 1892, it was a
[Stage Direction]
crime to make a bet on a race track; and when the Criminal Code was consolidated, there was added to it a provision calculated and intended to allow the registration of a bet or the selling of a pool on a race track. That legislation was subsequently tested in the courts, and the decision of the courts in connection with it is clearly set forth in these reports. Sir Allan Aylesworth, speaking to the House upon the debate on the MilleT Bill, and the provision which was inserted in that Bill and which was supposed to deal effectively with this evil, as it had developed in the country, made this reference to it:
We have all heard of the ancient conundrum ''When is a dog's tail not a dog's tail?" With the answer: "When it is a waggin," It seems to me that this is something of the same sort: 'When is a place not a place?'' The definition is that the word "place" Is to Include any place, whether it is or is not a fixed place. Now to my mind, the word "place" necessarily implies and carries with it the idea of localization and of definite fixity. I cannot understand a place that is not a fixed place, and I cannot therefore think that the object which the framers of this Bill had in view, in endeavouring to get over the decision of the courts I have described, can be accomplished by any juggling with words or verbal trickery such as, it seems to me, with all respect to the draftsman of this Bill, the definition I have referred to, literally amounts to.
It appears that the provision that was added to the Criminal Code of 1902 has been questioned in the courts, and that the courts had ruled that if the bookmaker in the selling of a pool or in the registration of a bet stood still or under an umbrella, then he was committing a crime; but if he was moving from place to place in the booth, he was not committing a crime, so that it would be clear that previous to the legislation passed by this Parliament in 1910, the registration of a bet, or the selling of a pool was really on the verge of criminality. As I am a layman so far as legal matters are concerned, and as my opinion might not be considered as very authoritative if I attempted to give a definition of the statute with regard to this subject. I desire to quote the opinion of the Hon. S. H. Blake, K.C., of Toronto, who, I think, will be regarded as a reasonable authority upon the construction of any statute. Speaking on the peculiarities of the statute as it had been construed by the highest courts in the land, because the case had gone to the Court of Appeal and from there to the Supreme Court ,of Canada, and the highest judges in the country had placed their construction upon the insertion of the particular clause to which I have alluded heretofore in the Criminal Code in the year 1902, the Hon. S. H. Blake thus added his
TMr. Wilcox.1
voice to the chorus of church denunciation of the Woodbine race track at the afternoon session of the diocesan synod meeting:
It will be seen by reference to section 235, sub-section 2, of the Criminal Code that some provision was supposed to have been made for betting- on and during the meet of a regularly organized and incorporated race track. This was taken advantage of until race track gambling became a public scandal, demoralizing in the extreme, until a case known as the Queen vs. Hanrahan, in which the Police Magistrate of Windsor convicted the defendant for keeping a common betting house. This case was taken to the Court of Appeal, where the conviction was unanimously sustained, the late Chief Justice Armour in his judgment, was very emphatic, holding as he did, that betting on any track, whether incorporated or otherwise, was an offence against the Criminal Code. The writer, acting in accordance with this judgment, brought the president of the Ontario Jockey Club into Court, where Colonel Denison convicted, giving a stated case, which was taken to the Court of Appeal, where the conviction was quashed, the court holding that as the president neither took part in the bookmaking nor profited thereby, a conviction could not be sustained against him. At the same time, one of the judges made a remark to the effect that the Crown should have proceeded against the bookmakers. At the next race track meet, evidence was secured and several bookmakers were brought into court, one of whom was selected as a test case. Colonel Denison again made a conviction, and this case was also taken to the Court of Appeal, where the conviction was sustained. It was then carried to the Supreme Court at Ottawa, and the judgment of the Court of Appeal was upheld, with one or two of the judges dissenting. This, however, did not put a stop to the gambling on the Woodbine race track, which was shown by a change of tactics in which the bookmakers stood on the lawn (and enclosures set apart for the bookmakers and their customers) and continued business as usual, the only difference being that they stood marking time instead of sitting.
A case was brought into court and a conviction secured before Col. Denison, who, when passing sentence, stated that the. attempted subterfuge in order to evade the law (in his judgment) intensified the offence. This case was also taken to the Court of Appeal and quashed on the grounds that standing up and moving about whilst the business of betting was carried on did not constitute an offence, not being a house, room, or place.
So it appears reasonably clear that, as 1 have said, previous to the legislation of 1910 on this subject the right to carry on race track betting or gambling had a very narrow margin indeed to stand on.
After full consideration of the subject, I believe that the majority in this House based their judgment upon three considerations, which considerations in turn were based upon the expert testimony given before the commission to which I have referred. The first consideration, I think, was this-that horse-racing was necessary to the development of the thoroughbred

horse, that it had the effect of developing his speed, stamina and character, and that, to the extent that thoroughbred blood was infused into the light horse of this country, to that extent the light horse of this country was improved. The second consideration, 1 think, was this-that a very large number of the best citizens of this Dominion held horse-racing as their real sport, and that Parliament should not go so far as to deprive them of the privilege of associating themselves to carry on a race track. The third point was this, that the evils which, it was admitted, had developed upon the race track were due to excessive race meets. The evidence of the detectives of New York, the evidence of the thoroughbred men of Canada-I mean the thoroughbred horse-breeders in Canada-and of all others interested, I think, supported that view. The evils that had developed in Victoria and Vancouver during the time of the Seattle exhibition were the consequences of the fact that there had been forty-two days' racing. To this was due the deplorable, demoralizing and degrading condition alluded to by Hon. Sydney Fisher, the late Minister of Agriculture, in his sworn testimony as published in the report of the commission, in which he stated that he would not like to find himself after dark with those who were connected with the racing on that occasion, in Victoria and Vancouver., I think this Parliament believed that the limitation of the days of racing would be the means of eliminating the very undesirable element which was complained of, and whose presence was regretted'by everybody, including the racing men themselves, as the cause of the demoralization attending this sport throughout the Dominion. It was pointed out that during the first days of a race meet in any community, the class of citizens to which I have alluded, the class that hold horse-racing as their real sport; predominates upon the track; but that in a few days their desires in that connection are gratified. Then, if the racing is allowed to continue day after day, week after week, and month after month, it resolves itself into a gambling institution pure and simple. The legislation passed in 1910, and rightly passed, was intended to limit the evil by limiting the race meets to seven days twice a year. Well, that legislation did not hold. I think the racing men ' put one over ' on Parliament, as they say. So I come to this House as a representative of a free constituency that has been outraged to ask that this evil
may be remedied. Before the passing of the Act to which I have alluded, the Act of 1910, we had in the city of Windsor twenty days' racing in the spring, and nine in the fall. Public opinion was developing against it because this was regarded as excessive. The Miller Bill was passed and the number of days' racing limited to fourteen. From that day I never heard a single complaint from the people of the county of Essex regarding the operation of that one track and the fourteen days of racing. But certain speculators, mostly from the American side, to some of whom I shall probably refer at greater length before I close my remarks, have taken advantage of the situation. I am not going to find fault because of the law passed years ago under which certain charters were granted. There is no reason to find fault. Previous to 1900, when certain restrictive legislation was passed in the great racing states of New York and Michigan, we in Canada did not suffer from the abuses which have since arisen. It is not to be wondered at that our statute made it very easy for men to secure race track charters in Canada. But the limitations placed upon race track operations by the great states of New York and Michigan led to the whole institution being imported bodily into the province of Ontario and that is the cause of the difficulty to-day in Canadian racing. Years ago, as I understand-and again I want to say that I am not a lawyer
Wilfrid Laurier: You ought to have been.


Mr. WILCOX:: -any man could apply
to the Secretary of State, and by letters patent, obtain a race track charter in Canada. That was previous to the ligislaticn that was passed in 1910, which provided that in future no race track charters should be granted in that way, but only by special Act of this Parliament. I venture to assert that not a man who sat in this House at that time ever thought of the existence of these old charters. But that legis'ation had this effect; it at once placed a value upon those old charters, and in some cases they are asking to-day as high as $50,000 for one of them, because Parliament made it absolutely impossible for any new charters to be granted. Therefore, the owners of one of these charters could go to a good racing print like the city of Windsor, with 827,000 people across the line in Detroit eight Hours or ten hours from Chicago, six hours from Buffalo, five hours from Toledo, and six or

seven hours from Cleveland, and dispose of such a charter at a great profit. Situated as we are in close relation to the cities I have mentioned, we cah have races with 6,000,
8,000,	9,000 and 10,000 people every day, in the summer, and we do have as many people there as 20,000 on some occasions. It is that evil, that excess, that abuse which I am asking this Parliament to remedy under the provisions of the Bill which I have introduced.	'


Robert Laird Borden: Is racing forbidden by the laws of Michigan? v


Oliver James Wilcox: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: Absolutely prohibited?


Oliver James Wilcox: Yes. Racing is prevented by the laws of Michigan and New York. They do bet, but it is not within the law. Therefore the fact that the law makes it an offence to bet in Michigan, is a restraint upon those running races within the confines of their own state.
When I introduced this Bill in the House the other day, I was attacked through the press by a Mr. Francis Nelson, who is the sporting editor of the Toronto Globe. I think I have met Mr. Nelson once or twice, and from all I know of him he is a courteous, kind gentleman, but he has not been fair to me in the columns of his paper. I want to say to this House that he is a servant of the Racing Association, and that the insinuations and the aspersions which he has cast are not fair to me. I desire to allude to them this afternoon. I'happened to make reference to the fact that the interests involved in this excess racing were per- . meated by American influences. Well, Sir,
I do not think that it was an offence to say that. But in the columns of his paper, Mr. Nelson at once set up the argument that I did not complain about all these business men of Detroit who come over to the city of Windsor and invest their money in my constituency. No, we do not complain of that, and we have no criticism to offer of the great body politic of the United1 States, the great open-hearted, free, patriotic public of the United States. When I used the term American, I had reference to that particular class of people whom many of the states in the Union have seen fit to legislate out of existence in the confines of their own state; and I absolutely refuse to have my constituency made a refuge for the surplus of that class of the population of the United States.

I want to make some reference to some of those gentlemen. There is a race track at Fort Erie. There are three race tracks at Windsor. There is a fourth application now filed with the Treasury Department at Toronto. A fifth one, I under-4 p.m. stand, is being organized. Three race tracks gave us last year forty-two days racing. Four will give us fifty-six days racing and five, if they are established, will give us seventy days. Will anybody say in this House, in view of the decision which Parliament came to in 1910, that I am not justified in coming to the members of this House and asking their support of this Bill which will establish clearly and distinctly what Parliament meant by its legislation of 1910? With further reference to that term " American influence " I want to make myself absolutely clear on that point, because in the city of Windsor and in the town of Walkerville and in the town of Ojibway, which will In the future be the great industrial centre of Ontario, we have prominent Americans and we welcome them; but let us see some of the men who are connected with this Racing Association-and I am fully alive to the fact that we have prominent Canadians connected with this association, men who are high in social circles and business circles and are the cream of society. I know it, and against them I have not a word to say. But I want to place my complaint clearly before the House this afternoon. And I do not desire to use my own words; I desire to quote from the official records and the sworn testimony given at commissions that have been held in Ottawa and in Washington.
We have connected with the Fort Erie race track, Mr. Madigan, who is the president. I must quote some evidence in regard to that, because the statement might be disputed. On page 273 of the report of the special committee on Bill No. 6, relating to Race Track Gambling, I find that Mr. E. T. Malone was called and examined. Mr. Malone was the solicitor, and he came to Ottawa to give evidence. The following is his statement:
Mr. Malone.-I have a telegram from Mr. Madigan authorizing me to appear as solicitor for the' association, also a telegram from Dr. Bruso, Buffalo, stating that Mr. Madigan is confined to his room with acute bronchitis and he has advised him to return south when he is able to travel. I am solicitor of the association which took out its charter under the Ontario Companies Act on the 27th day of April, 1906.

We were endeavouring to get some of the parties connected with these associations to Ottawa, in order to obtain some evidence as do their connection with American race tracks, and otherwise. With regard to the Windsor track, the following telegram appears in the report of the special committee on Bill No. 6, at page 290:
Mr. Raney.-Then I think there is a statement due from Mr. Counsell as to the books and statements that were asked for from the Windsor Association.
Mr Counsell.-The only statement X have to make is contained in the telegram that I received last night from Windsor, it is to the following effect:
Chief Wills sick, Magistrate Leggatt left last night, bookkeeper for Windsor Racing Association died recently, his successor ill with typhoid fever. Knows nothing regarding the books. Geo. M. Hendrie1 in the south, ordered there by his physician, present address unknown.
It would appear on the face of it to be a rather unhealthy organization. 1 wish to say in fairness that I recognize that the Windsor Driving Park Association has a large number of Canadians interested in it. I also recognize that the other tracks to which I have alluded have Canadians interested in them. But I do say that at the bottom, in and through them, they are *connected with associations that operate south of the line, as far away as Mexico, and that in the summer they come to the southern part of Ontario. Who are some of these men? On page 9, I find that an application was made to the district attorney of Brooklyn, who had a very full and complete knowledge of the operations of race tracks in New York state, to give evidence, from which I shall give a few extracts with reference to the Windsor Racing Association, and to some of the men who were prominent in it, and also as to their operations in the United States. The district attorney of Brooklyn had this to say with reference to Samuel Wagner, familiarly known as Sam Wagner, a noted owner of gambling houses in Chicago and other cities in the United States, and one who was for several years the principal owner of the race track at Windsor:
When the prosecuting attorney for Wayne county, Michigan, started after the race track gamblers, the Highland Park Club, which had conducted racing at Highland Park, about seven miles north of Detroit, leased the Windsor track and the races at Windsor are now run under the control of the Highland Park Club. According to the records of the county clerk's office, Wayne county, the Highland Park Club was incorporated in 1897, under the laws of Michigan. George M. Hendrie, of Detroit, is the president and Walter O. Parmer, of Nashville, is the secretary.
With regard to Fort Erie, the district attorney's report has this reference:
The racing club is practically controlled by John H. Madigan, the Texan. Madigan has a reputation all over the country as a fighter of game-cocks, and is in the habit of wagering thousands of dollars upon the outcome of one of these contests. He is simply a gambler and on the race track Is a plunger. Dan. J. Stuart, whose name appears in the annual returns of the association to the Ontario Government as a director of the association, was the man who staged the fight between Corbett and Fitzsimmons.
That is a sample. There was an investigation held at Washington, at which some very interesting evidence was given as to the operations of this institution. At Washington, on December 14, 1909, before a sub-committee of the Judiciary of the United States Senate on Bill 225, "To prevent the nullification of State antigambling laws by international or interstate transmission of race-gambling bets or racing odds," Mr. Henry Brolaski, an experienced racing man, gave evidence. He said:
Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Committee.-In answer to the inquiry of Senator Nelson, I will state in a moment what bookmaking is. I will preface my remarks by stating that I reside at Monrovia, Cal., 18 miles from Los Angeles. I am engaged in the real estate business, being associated with the "Home Builders'' at 129 South Broadway, Los Angeles, Cal. Prior to entering that business, I was for twenty-one years a gambler, pool-room proprietor, bookmaker upon race tracks, and a handbook maker. I have booked in St. Louis, Chicago, Worth, Roby, Atlanta, Charleston, New Orleans, San Francisco, Oakland, Los Angeles, Latonia, Louisville and Benning."
Senator Nelson.-You might tell us a little more fully what a pool room is?
Mr. Brolaski.-A pool room is a place where 20 or 30 or more people congregate in an afternoon to bet on horse races run on race tracks at a distance, the news being sent from the tracks to the pool room by telegraph.
The pool foom service is handled by an information bureau known as the Interstate News Company in the East, which leases wires from fhe Western Union Telegraph Company. Over .these wires they send the names of the Jockeys and scratches (meaning horses not to start this day), and then the betting and the official description of the race. The pool room allows from twenty to thirty minutes between races for their patrons to gamble.
It costs these pool rooms for this service ?22 per day for each set of races that they may take. At present they are racing at Jacksonville and Tampa, Fla., Oakland, Cal., and Juarez, Mexico, 1J miles from the International boundary line.
Senator Burkett:	Please tell the committee
where the race tracks are.
I made the statement that they were affiliated with these tracks down there and

Buffalo press or the pari-mutuel operations in charge from the other side.
On July 18, 1916, Mr. W. D. Sqott writes the following letter to Mr. G. Seebach, Inspector in charge of Immigration, Bridge-buTg, 0<nt.:
iSir,-As you are probably aware, the department has met with considerable trouble in the matter of the employment on race tracks of Americans imported for the occasion to the detriment of Canadians.
Inspector J. C. Mitchell has been following up the case lately and finds that in many cases (particularly at Fort Erie) the management of the race track claim that as the patronage comes largely from Buffalo, they are obliged to employ American ticket sellers, cashiers and clickers; some of the help admitted is German-American and pro-German in sympathy.
I think the time has come that we should no longer be dictated to by the Buffalo press or the management of these race tracks, and you may, therefore, enforce the immigration regulations in the strictest possible way as regards race track employees. The character of the men and the nature of the employment is not of the best, and if everything else fails you may invoke section 3 s.s. (g), especially when you know that there are qualified Canadians available for the work.
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) W. D. Scott, Superintendent of Immigration.
Immigration Branch,
Department of the Interior, Canada.
Toronto, Ont., August 4, 1916.
Sir,-I beg to advise you that I am going to the Fort Erie race tracks to-night, as the parimutuel operators have not received any word of their appointment from the Niagara Racing Association. They are, apparently, doing as at last meet, not replying to applications, probably hoping that these men will not show up on the track to-morrow. They are all going to be there.
I met Mr. Madigan at the Windsor meet and told him that where men were qualified to work on other tracks they would have to be given the same positions at Fort Erie. He still persists in claiming his right to place them wherever he sees fit, no matter what positions they have held on other tracks. As you may know the class of man he is, I have pointed out to him how he had made a returned soldier work as a clicker at the last meet, who has held the position as cashier at practically all the other tracks. Since his return from the front he has been a cashier at the Woodbine, both Hamilton meets, and at Windsor. He told me that he did not care about soldiers. I think a man of this stamp does not deserve any consideration. Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) Jas. C. Mitchell, Inspector of Employment Agencies. W. D. Scott, Esq.,
Supt. of Immigration,
Ottawa, Ont.
I! there is no objection, I have a few mere letters that I would like to be permitted to file without reading:

Immigration Branch,
Department of the Interior, Canada.
Toronto, Ont., July 7, 1916.
Sir,-There is some dissatisfaction owing to three Canadians, Messrs. Lawrence, Quinn and Canning, having been put on as clickers, while I am satisfied that they are competent ticket sellers and cashiers, having worked on other tracks in Canada. Mr. Martin would not say these men were not competent ticket sellers and cashiers. His contention is that he has given all Canadians work, and he has the right to. say what work he may put them at. It looks very much like discriminating against the Canadians, giving the Americans the positions at twelve dollars per day, and these three Canadians positions at five dollars per day, especially while some of these Americans are German-Ameri-cans. Mr. Lawrence is a returned soldier from the front, and quite naturally feels hurt.
Mr. Madigan says he is a Canadian. He told me that he prefers Canadians, but that so much of his patronage comes from across the river that he has to employ some Americans. I am quite satisfied that the management of this track is purely American, as their office is at Ellicott square, Buffalo, N.Y. As for Mr. Madigan claiming that he is a Canadian, it does not look very well when he will allow a German-American to be given preference over a Canadian soldier who has returned from the front.
I may state that the Canadians are very grateful to the department for the action they have taken in seeing that they were given positions on the Canadian race tracks. One of the Canadians was taken in to the office on Tuesday and accused of being the secretary who was responsible for bringing this matter to the attention of the department.
Mr. Martin complained yesterday that one of the Canadians was impertinent to one of his men, and as there is a good deal of feeling over this matter, I have decided to visit Fort Erie until the close of the races to see that no Canadian is unjustly treated.
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) Jas. C. Mitchell, Inspector of Employment Agencies. W. D. Scott, Esq.,
Supt. of Immigration,
Ottawa, Ont.
Immigration Branch,
Department of the Interior, Canada.
Toronto, Ont., July 24, 1916.
Sir,-I am informed that Mr. Smith, an American, is a very large stockholder in the Hamilton track, and that Sam Spencer, who is known as the New York Jew on the race track, and who caused the trouble on the Dorval track, where the Canadians were refused work in the first place, is Smith's representative. He was around the Hamilton race track at the last meet. I made inquiries and they always claimed % that he was not employed there, although he was in and out of the pari-mutual offices all the time and paid the men off the last day of the meet, and my impression is that he may have had something to do in offering some of the Canadians inferior jobs. Smith was in the Hamilton Jockey Club office to-day, and I was told by one of the operators, who was one of the outside officers, that Smith was going over the lists to-day.

I shall be in Hamilton on Wednesday at the opening of the meet, and will endeavour to see that these Canadians are not discriminated against, and, if necessary, I will examine the Americans as to their entry into Canada. I think the Hamilton Jockey Club has had fair warning.
I am enclosing herewith a copy of the notice sent out to the Americans.
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) Jas. C. Mitchell, Inspector of Employment Agencies.
August 18, 1916.
Sir,-Mr. J. C. Mitchell, an officer of this department, is attending the Windsor Jockey Club meeting. Mr. Mitchell has been instructed to furnish the department with a full report in the matter of all aliens employed by your association, I shall be glad if you will kindly furnish this officer with a list showing the names and nationalities of all employees in your pari-mutual department. Mr. Mitchell will call upon you and obtain the above list.
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) W. D. Scott. Superintendent of Immigration. George M. Hendrie, Esq.,
Windsor Jockey Club,
Windsor, Ont.
Immigration Branch,
Department of the Interior, Canada.
Windsor, Ont., August 16, 1916. Sir,-I wish you would advise George M. Hendrie of the Windsor Jockey Club, as soon as possible, to supply me with a list of all the employees employed in the pari-mutual department in order that I may check the same up to see how many Americans are actually employed. The other racing associations have supplied me with this list and I do not see why any exception should be made in this case. ' You might also advise me what action you desire taken in the Garland case, sending same in care of Immigration Office at Windsor.
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) Jas. C. Mitchell, Inspector of Employment Agencies.
W. D. Scott, Esq.,
Superintendent of Immigration,
Ottawa, Ont.
Department of the Interior,
Canada.
Ottawa, August 29, 1916.
Sir,-There were approximately employed at the Windsor track at this meet sixty-three Americans and seventy-four Canadians in the better positions, made up as follows:
Cashiers-18 Americans, 34 Canadians.
In money room-12 Americans, 4 Canadians. Ticket sellers-19 Americans, 18 Canadians. Calculators-4 Americans, 2 Canadians.
In ticket room-4 Americans.
To change money-1 American, 3 Canadians. Ticket checkers-2 Americans, 1 Canadian. Messengers-2 Americans, 3 Canadians. Blackboard man-American.
Field board man-Canadian.
Machinists to look after pari-mutuels_2 Canadians.
Telephone man-American.
Miscellaneous-3 Canadians.
Clickers-6 Americans, 31 Canadians. (There were Canadian clickers refused positions.) Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) Jas. C. Mitchell,
Inspector of Agencies.
W. D. Scott, Esq.,
Superintendent of Immigration,
Ottawa, Ont.
Department of the Interior,
Canada.
Ottawa, August 29, 1916.
Sir,-In reply to the letter of the Windsor Jockey Club in reference to myself, I may state that at the first meet this year I was promised the list of the employees on the pari-mutuels, but was refused at the last moment, only given the number of Americans and Canadians employed in the different departments.
On the first day of the second meet I spoke to Mr. George M. Hendrie, the president, in regard to the list, and the only satisfaction I got was he said he would see. I wrote the department and under date of August 18, Mr. Hendrie was notified to furnish me with the list. I did not receive this list until the 22nd, the second last day of the meet, and it only stated that the men were American or Canadian and did not give the permanent residence of the Americans. I had most of these men's permanent addresses and I checked the list over and secured from Mr. Elrod, who was in charge of the pari-mutuels, the number of the wicket that the different men were working at whose permanent address in the United States I did not have. I took every care not to disturb these few men when they were busy. I found a number of these had entered Canada without inspection, but it being the second last day of the meet I .did not disturb them.
I might say that there were six American clickers employed at the last meet from different parts of the United States-one from Washington,-and that Canadians were refused. I was unaware of this state of affairs through Mr. Hendrie not complying with my request to furnish me with a list on the first day, and I only discovered on receipt of the list that these American clickers were on.
I must take strong objection to Mr. Hendrie's statement that the Canadians who are complaining are incompetent and undesirable, and it is very unbecoming in the President of the Windsor Jockey Club to insult the Canadian people in such a manner, as they are more than equal to some of the Americans he employs on his track.
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) Jas. C. Mitchell, Inspector of Employment Agencies. W. D. Scott, Esq.,
Superintendent of Immigration,
Ottawa.
In conclusion, I ask that the Bill be given the second reading and be permitted to go to committee for consideration.


Mr. W. B. NORTHRUP (East Hastings):: Mr. Speaker, While, I am sure every member of the House has listened with interest, pleasure and profit to the histocial review of racing given by my hon. friend (Mr. Wilcox), I am equally sure that on consideration of the Bill, it will be found that



it is unfortunately lacking in the machinery which would make it practical and usefully operative. Take the very case spoken of by imy horn, friend in his own constituency where five race tracks are to be operated under recently resurrected charters. I think every member of the House feels that something should be done in regard to the matter; hut all this Bill says is that only fourteen days should be given *to racing in that constituency. Who is to decide which race track is to have the fourteen days racing? My hon. friend says that the provincial secretary in issuing the license for the year can do so. What right has this House to impose that duty upon the provincial secretary or what right has it' to assume that he will undertake to perform that duty? If this Bill passes, will not these apparency somewhat unscrupulous racing men from the United States perhaps obtain an advantage in this country at the Woodbine Jockey Club or at the Blue Bonnets meet in Montreal, race tracks conducted in such a way that no one can take offence at the meets held there. If only fourteen days were allowed to Montreal or Toronto, one of the organizations on the other side might snap up the fourteen days and the Woodbine or the Blue Bonnets might have no opportunity of furnishing the pleasure which these race tracks furnish. I think, therefore, in view of the statements made by the hon. gentleman as to the serious injury that is being done to his constiituecny, and in view of the lack of machinery in the Bill to carry out any of its provisions, it would be advisable that the Bill be read the second time, and, after the return of the Minister of Justice, it be referred to a committee of this House.


Mr. W. M. GERMAN (Welland):: Mr. Speaker, to supplement what the hon. member for East Hastings (Mr. Northrup) has said, I think that not only would the amendment, if passed, destroy that class of what we might call legitimate racing at Montreal and Toronto, but hon. gentlemen will remember that this section states that if two race courses are in existence within fifty miles of each other, then fourteen days' racing must he divided among the two. It so happens that Toronto and Hamilton are within fifty miles of each other, and if this amendment should pass, Toronto and Hamilton could have only fourteen days between them. Who would decide as to who should have the fourteen days? The hon. member for Essex (Mr. Wilcox) says 
that he would leave it to the provincial treasurer; that the provincial government can deal with the matter at present. The whole trouble which has arisen is the very weak manner in which this law has been administered by the provincial government, which has allowed defunct charters to be revived for the purpose of establishing race tracks around Windsor, which charters should never have been revived, and which the provincial government should not have allowed to be revived, because it knew that those charters were being revived practically for the purpose of evading the law. The provincial government has at present the power to license race tracks, and no race track can operate in the province of Ontario or anywhere without a license from the provincial government. If there are more race tracks in operation in and around Windsor than the hon. member for North Essex thinks is good for the community, or than he thinks should exist there, then his remedy is to appeal to the provincial government to hereafter cease granting licenses to those various race tracks, and he will then have only one instead of four.


Oliver James Wilcox: 
Oliver James Wilcox: But they aTe there.
Mr. GERMAN. Then they are there only by grace of the Ontario government because the Ontario government is deriving the revenue. If that government wished to pay the expenses of the province from gambling revenues, they could start a Kentucky lottery; they could establish another Monte Carlo. But, I apprehend, the Government of Ontario does not choose to derive a revenue from race tracks, they simply wish to Tegulate the race tracks, and to isee that no more race tracks are in operation than should be carried .on for the general good of the public. Then, it is up to the Ontario government to regulate these race tracks and prevent the conditions in and about Windsor which now exist and which, I agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Wilcox), are a disgrace to that section of the country as well as to the provincial government.


Oliver James Wilcox: Would it not he as reasonable, and as logical, to insert a proviso into the Act to limit the number of race tracks in Canada, and to limit the number of days' racing in any county to fourteen, as it was in 1910, to limit the meets on a race track to two of seven days each in a year?


William Manley German: I should say, most emphatically, no. Companies, properly and legally incorporated, have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in establishing magnificent race tracks under the law as it stands, such as 'the Woodbine, the Hamilton, the Fort Erie, the Highland Park, the Blue Bonnets, and the Dor-val tracks. Why destroy that property for the sake of the gambling element which, as my hon, friend has suggested, comes from the United States to establish what we might call outlaw tracks? I believe that seventy-five per cent of the people of Canada desire to see such tracks as those I have named, continue in existence. I think it would be better to cut out the illegitimate tracks that my hon. friend is proposing to regulate by this Bill, especially as it seems to me that his Bill will not attain the end he contemplates, while it will destroy the property already in existence.


Oliver James Wilcox: I have no desire that my Bill should in the slightest degree


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Order. Unless the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilcox) is exercising his right to conclude the debate, he cannot speak again.	.


Oliver James Wilcox: I shall have another
opportunity.


Robert Laird Borden: It would appear from what the bon, member for North Essex (Mr. Wilcox) has said, that a result has come about which was not contemplated by Parliament when the Acts of 1910 and 1912 were passed. As I understand 'him, some racing interests have executed what might be termed a flank movement 'against the intention expressed by Parliament in those statutes. It seems to me that a remedy is desirable, and even necessary. On the other hand I share the doubt of the hon. member for East Hastings (Mr. Northrup) as to whether the Bill in its. present form could be given practical effect. I regret that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) is prevented by illness: from being in his place to-day, because he is much more familiar with the legislation and the conditions to which it relates than I 'am. It might, however, be worth while to point out thait the Act of 1912 contains the following:
And provided that no such association holds, and that on any one race track there be not held, in any one calendar year more than two race-meetings at which there are running races and that there is an interval of at least twenty days between meetings.
There are certain otheT provisions of that section to which I need not now call attention. My hon. friend from Essex proposes to amend that section by adding:
Provided that where there is more than one race course in any city, town or county, or where there are two or more race courses less -than fifty miles apart, the race meetings on all the race courses, in such city, town or county, or on all the race courses within fifty miles of one another, shall not exceed in number or in duration the limit prescribed in the above provisions for one race course or race track.
The hon. member foT Welland (Mr. German) has pointed out that the conditions with regard to the race tracks at Toronto, Hamilton, and elsewhere, to which the Bill under consideration does not seem to be directed, would be interfered with by the amendment as proposed. The hon, member for East Hastings also points out that the Bill does not constitute any authority which shall determine in what proportion the time suggested by the Bill shall


Mr. W. E. KNOWLES (Moosejaw):: Mr. Speaker, I was one of those who did not support the former Bill as presented by the late Mr. Miller, and I opposed it for reasons which seemed good to me at that time. My position now is that of supporting the principle of the Bill introduced by the hon. gentleman from North Essex (Mr. Wilcox), and my reason for doing so is that I think anything which tends to curtail and reduce the magnitude of this racing habit while the war is on, is something that deserves our commendation. I would go further, and be in favour of legislation which would do away with all these race meets while the war is raging. The sight which is presented to the country of 5,000 to 20,000 people, men and women, some of the women dressed mostly in men's clothes and the rest dressed like dolls, spending all the money they can succeed in wasting, shouting and hurrahing and waiting in breathless interest for the conclusion of a horse race, while the soldiers are making their race for life, taking perhaps a year to go a few metres or at most a kilometre or two, seems to me a spectacle such as is not to the credit of the country or such as the people of the country desire to see in any way encouraged. I am quite aware that there are large sums of money invested in a financial way in these institutions, and one has to be careful of the results which might, be effected. If it were necessary, I 
would rather be a party to voting a reasonable Bill for a system of compensation to these people to keep ruin away from their doors, because that would be a thousand times cheaper to the nation in the end than to continue this menace of race meetings that we know now exists. Personally I do not live in a part of the country where they have these race meets; but that has nothing to do with the merits of the argument one way or the other, and I think the wishes of the people we represent would not he misinterpreted if the Prime Minister and the Minister of Justice were to take into their very careful consideration the advisability of introducing legislation to suspend all such race meetings while the war is on. I think the moral effect upon the men whom we might wish to reach in the way of recruiting is bad. I think that the waste of all this money is not conducive to the best organization of our young nation at this juncture; and I support the principle of the Bill because it goes a small direction in the way of reducing what I think is an undesirable state of affairs. I should be glad if the Government could go even further, and suspend all such race meetings throughout Canada during the continuance of the war.


Oliver James Wilcox: I very gladly accept the suggestion of the hon. member for Hastings (Mr. Northrup), and I agree with the Prime Minister in regard to it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the second time.

Robert Laird Borden: That on Wednesday, the 7th February, and subsequent Wednesdays to the end of the session, the House shall meet at three o'clock, p.m., and that the sittings on such days shall in every respect be under the same rules provided for other days:-That on and after Thursday, the 1st February, up to and including Thursday, the 15th February next, Government Notices of Motion and Government Orders shall have precedence on Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays over all business except Questions by Members and Notices of Motion for the production of papers; and that on Saturday, the 3rd day of February and on Saturday, the 10th day of February, the House shall meet at three o'clock in the afternoon and the order of procedure shall be the same as on Fridays.
He said: In the discussion of this matter between my right hon. friend (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) and myself, if was hoped that we would be able to conclude the work which I mentioned in the House as work that should be done before the adjournment, by the 7th instant, or at the outside the 8th

instant; but inasmuch as one could not be absolutely certain of that, and as I do not desire to have to bring down
5 p.m. another motion, I have proposed as the date the 15th of February so as to guard against any contingency of that kind. With that explanation, * I would move this motion in its amended form as above.


Wilfrid Laurier: The first part of this motion concerns the rule of the House which says that on Wednesdays the House shall meet at two o'clock and adjourn at six o'clock. The suggestion of my right hon. friend, as amended, now is that from this day until the end of the session, the usual rule of meeting at three o'clock shall prevail on Wednesdays. I agree to that. In these war times there are no entertainments, or there ought not to be; there are none on Wednesday evenings, and there is no reason at all why we should not have the same rule prevailing on Wednesdays as on other days. As to the remainder of tlie motion, it simply provides that on private members' days frovemment business shall have precedence over all business except questions and notices of motion. But it is understood that this rule will cease when the House meets again.


Robert Laird Borden: By its terms it will cease then.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. R. BICKERDIKE (Montreal, St. Lawrence) movted the second reading of Bill No. 3, to amend the Criminal Code and to abolish capital punishment.
* He said:	Mr. Speaker, the Bill that I
*have introduced has a two-fold object, first, to prevent the possibility of recurrence of what has taken place at different times throughout the country, namely, the putting of innocent men to death; and secondly, to make it possible for juries to convict so that all murderers will be confined in prison. To-day, juries hesitate to convict unless the crime has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt, and, as a consequence, any number of murderers are to-day walking the streets of different cities in Canada who would be confined in penitentiaries if this amendment had been adopted at a previous session.
I think I am safe in saying that our whole system of punishment in Canada is
on wrong lines, WTe punish largely for revenge. You say: it serves him right; hanging was too good for him. Punishment should be confined to improving the man, to making him a better man instead of shutting him up where he will become a worse man," or of sending his soul to eternity. A mother punishes her child, but she punishes it in love, for the purpose of making it a better child. She may close it up in a dark room, and she does so, not only for the benefit of the child, but for the benefit of other members of the family. But all the time that that child is shut up in the dark room the mother's heart is with it. In my opinion, that is the system of punishment that we should adopt in Canada. Sir, to hang a man because he de-userves to be hanged is the poorest way of shirking our responsibility towards a lower soul who has come into this world for his fellow men to help him to develop into a higher and nobler life. If a man is capable of being made better, we have no right to send him out of the world until he has .taken this step of development for which be was sent into the world, and which his higher fellowmen should help him to take.
Capital punishment is not based on Christianity, and any law that you have in this country, or any other country, that is not based on Christianity becomes a failure. Our law of capital punishment is based on vengeance. I have no doubt that a great many members of this House, and a great many people in this country claim that capital punishment is a deterrent. I think I will be able to prove, before the House adjourns, that capital punishment is not a deterrent. During the year 1916 there were fifty murders in this country. I think that that awful fact ought to satisfy any inquiring mind that there is no such thing as a deterrent, and that when a man commits a crime he is, at least at the moment, insane beyond a shadow ,of doubt. Forty of these cases went to trial for murder. In twenty the accused was found guilty. Some of the others pleaded guilty to manslaughter; some got clear; ten weTe executed; in nine cases the sentence was commuted, and one committed suicide. That is the record of our system in Canada: 50 murders, 40 men tried for murder, 20 found guilty of murdeT, 10 executed, nine commutations and one suicide. The suicide was, of course, in Ontario. I will not give the names of the men who were executed; it would not be fair to their families or relatives. But I will give the names of the judges. They were Justices New-
[Stage Direction]
lands, Drysdale, C. J. Graham, Sir J. A. Boyd, Galt,-Justice Galt has two executions to his credit, and I think if he could have had his way, he would have had a third with the Minister of Public Works as a victim-Macaulay, Simmons, C. J. Harvey, Walsh, Prendergast, Falconbridge, Mulock, Macdonald, Haszard, Harris, Monet and Kelly. Unfortunately we had one case in the province of Quebec, only one; and that was such a brutal ease that the public were all in favour of hanging the man. Otherwise he would have got off, because the people of the province of Quebec are determined not to sand a man to eternity unless his guilt is established beyond a shadow of doubt, and I think they are right. I wish the Prime Minister, or the Minister' of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen), who is leading the House, would just place his ear to the ground, and follow the dictates of his own conscience. If he did so, he would adopt my Bill as a Government measure. My hon. friend (Mr. Hazen) shakes his head, and like Pharoah of old, hardens his heart; and the Government, just to keep their hands in, strangles a few prodigals every year.
There are four great reforms marching hand in hand across this continent to-day, which no number of hidebound politicians, be they Grit or Tory, or Grit and Tory combined, will be able much longer to prevent becoming law by the consent of the citizens of Canada. They are, first, the right of the mothers in Canada to contribute towards making the laws of this country; second, the abolition of the bars; third, penitentiary and prison reform; fourth, the abolition of capital punishment. The first of these I feel safe in leaving in the hands' of our most recent convert amongst our leading Canadian statesmen, the right hon. the leader of His Majesty's loyal Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier), who, having championed a good cause, fights for it, and fights to a finish. I regret very much that the hon. gentleman has not pronounced himself so strongly in favour of the other three reforms, but if I would be allowed to repeat an expression made use of by one who has gone to his rest, I would say that we should hope for the best, as the ship is heading in the right direction. The second-abolishing the bars [DOT]-I will leave in the hands of the hon. the leader of the Opposition in the Ontario Legislature, whose battle cry is: ' Abolish the Bars.' The third I feel to be quite safe in the hands of the hon. representative of the county of Frontenac (Mr. Edwards), who has been making such a good fight for 
penitentiary and prison reform in Canada. The fourth-that of abolishing the death penalty in Canada-I intend to deal with to the best of my ability. It is not my intention, Mr. Speaker, to detain the House at any length, as I exhausted most of the arguments in my possession on this question on previous occasions in this House, when the question was being dealt with. I fail to understand how any man, claiming to be a Christian, and believing in an eternity of the soul, can be party to sending that soul into eternity.
Mr. BURNHAM:: Is it not in eternity now?


Mr. BICKERDIKE:: Who?


John Hampden Burnham: The soul.


Robert Bickerdike: If my hon. friend had remained where he should be at the present time serving in the country's defence he might have got his soul there too.
Mr. Speaker, I condemn any law that proposes to thrust soulj into the fathomless abyss of the inscrutable beyond by the commission of a public crime. I have no doubt that the House will recall the fact that when this fight was started four years ago there were six of the states to the south of us which had abolished capital punishment; six more have now thrown off the yoke and to-day twelve states have abolished capital punishment. They are: Rhode Island, Wisconsin, Kansas, Minnesota, Maine, Michigan, Washington, Oregon, South Dakota, North Dakota, Tennessee, Arizona.
I was told that this was too big a fight for an old man like me to undertake. Well, it is true, it is a big fight, but it is a fight of democracy versus caste, humanity versus brutality, enlightenment versus superstition, construction versus destruction, Christianity versus heathenism, civilization versus blood, golden rule versus vengeance. Experience has shown that executions are followed by increased homicide. It is unwise economically. Lives are destroyed which would be economically valuable to the state. Capital punishment is unnecessary. It is not effective as a deterrent. Many murderers are not deterred by any punishment. Many criminals know that infliction of the death penalty is extremely unlikely.
The Minister of Justice, who, I am sorry, is not here at present, seems to be wedded to the scaffold. He claims that he has divine authority for hanging these poor men. I think the scaffold is a disgrace to any civilized country and in many respects, like

the tree of sorrows, it is watered only by the tears of the widows and orphans.
Allow me now to quote the words of one of the most eminent, most noble, and best statesmen that it was ever the good fortune of the great republic of France to produce. President Fallieres of the French Republic says:
Among the unpleasant duties of the President of France is that of signing all death warrants issued in the republic.
This is well. He sayts, however, that there (Should be a slight change in the arrangement, to wit:
The judge who sentences the man to die should also act as his executioner.
President Fallieres claims that if this [DOT]were the case, it would do away with all legalized homicide. He further says:
I will not ask any man to do that which ,1 myself am unwilling to do. I will do no murder, even for the State.
Therefore President Fallieres, during his time, commuted all death penalties to life imprisonment, and where there was a reasonable doubt about the man's guilt, he pardoned him. He says:
France must learn to take care of her criminals without killing them.
It is a poor use to make of >a man to take his life. It is an (acknowledgement of our inefficiency. Then, (a life sentence (should hold out to a man the promise that a number of years of good behaviour and useful work, will make him free. Penology must be made a science to the end that when we imprison a man we do it for his own good, with the intention of turning out a better man than we took in. Just as long as the state sets an example of killing its enemies, they must expect that individuals will occasionally kill theirs. Many years ago, when England had forty six offences punishable by death, there was very much more killing than now. Crime has decreased in England as well as elsewhere, as laws have become more humane. There is no such thing as a criminal class. When the state ceases to breed murder in the minds of her citizens, her citizens will then cease, not only the killing of each other, but also the dejire to kill. Judicial murders are worse than those done in passion. They are so atrociously premeditated, so deliberately planned, that no excuse can be made or found for them beyond that of precedent or cowardice. The sentiments of the people in Canada (are opposed to this (legal killing business, and this is why so many murder trials turn themselves into
a farce. When there is to be a hanging, every sheriff tries to get out of the job. In New York, when there is to be an electrocution, nobody wants to undertake it, and the deadly current is always turned on by a man at a distance from the scene, who salves his consience by pretending to think he is turning on the lights, (and in many of the cases, the executioner is a convict, working under orders. President Fallieres' refusal to either act as an executioner, onto order or engage others to take human life, is a manifestation of the better spirit of the age. Now let enlightened Canada, by her Governor in Council, take the same stand. Our Governor General land our Prime Minister and members of the Cabinet are a negative party to these judicial killings. They know what is being done, and by lifting a finger can stop it just as President Fallieres |did. Let them commute every death sentence to imprisonment for life, all without argument or question, and they will thereby express the spirit of the times, and show to the world that they believe in the future.
Man commits a murder and the state murders him. That is reciprocity with a vengeance. When I listen to a clergyman in the pulpit preaching Christianity on Sunday, and advocating the death penalty on Monday, I ask myself the old question: Was it he or hie parents who sinned, that he should be born blind? The state claims Divine authority for this leprous out-cropping of the dark ages, hut I claim that the state has no Divine authority ff>r the death penalty. Those who clamour most for capital punishment deduce their severity from the Bible, and yet it is the Bible which declares that no man should be put to death.
Dr. Josiah Oldfield, of London, says:
Can we ever forget that Cain was guilty of the worst of crimes, brutal, passionate, fratricide, and that by the laws of Canada, he would be hanged amid the execrations of our very righteous community, who would not raise a finger to get a reprieve in such a case, but would clamour for the hangman 'to do his duty' on the ground that 'such a monster ought not to live.'
Yet the infinite pity of God shielded Cain from the vengeance of pitiless men, and with a protective mark upon his forehead, he was eent out with an express command that no man should injure him; and no church dare to say that Cain, the first fratricide and the beginning of murderers, has not a (seat now in the Heaven of the Blessed, and yet, to-day, if Cain were to come to civilized Canada, he would be hounded to the gallows as a monster not worthy of having spent upon him the pittance which

the cost of one extra prisoner would entail. Yet the Bible declared that Cain [DOT] should not be hanged.


John Hampden Burnham: Will the hon. member be good enough to read that chapter in the Bible where it says that Cain was sent out with a protective mark upon his forehead.


Robert Bickerdike: My hon. friend will find that in Genesis. Being a good biblical scholar he will know where to put his hand on it. I would impress, too, the striking fact that. were Moses to land upon our shores he would land as a criminal who had comjnitted a murder which is punishable by hanging; and when I read the story of how Moses took the poor Egyptian and killed him, and surreptitiously buried his body, and covered the place over with sand so that his crime should be hidden, and then went home and went about his daily duties with serene face as if nothing had happened, I recall similar murders that have taken place in Canada, and I remember the popular outcry about the callous brutality of the crime, and the hard-hearted hypocrisy of the murderer, all quite true, and I can picture from the experience of similar cases that if Moses were to come to Canada to-day and were to repeat the crime which he perpetrated upon the Egyptian, the press and the public would combine to talk about " another brutal murder," and demand the expiation of the crime upon the scaffold. The Minister of Justice would never be satisfied until he had Moses hanged on the scaffold. I take these two striking cases because it is to the law of Moses that the modern pro-hanger appeals. To the Caesar of the Mosaic law does the pro-hanger appeal. By the Caesar of the Mosaic law shall the greatest of the world's prophetic law-givers be judged, and the majestic patriarch who had moulded for good the destinies of .millions of people and the, great races of men, would fall branded under the statute law of Canada as a common mu'dmer not worth keeping alive.
Capital punishment is unjust to- the criminal. He has no chance to reform. His soul is sent into eternity regardless of whether it is saved o,r not. It is unfair to his family; it disgraces them and robs them of any means of support. If you doubt it, ask any toon. member who has known of a family where the parent has been hanged, and knows how they have 'been hounded from one city to another. Capital punishment makes no allowances for varying degrees of guilt. It is irrevoc-

able. It is wrong in principle. The State has no right to take life. Killing by a .group of people is no more right than killing by one person. I claim that the law of Moses, " Thou -shalt pot kill," applies to the State as well as to the individual. The .same arguments for capital punishment were formerly advanced for torture. Statistics show that murders have decreased in countries and in states that have abolished capital punishment. Life imprisonment is better. It is more effective as a deterrent. Conviction is more certain, and it is the certainty rather than the nature of punishment which deters. Its duration-makes it a more severe punishment. It offers adequate protection to society. It prevents murderers- from committing new crimes. It reforms- the prisoners in order to determine the causes of crime. It makes the prisoner's life valuable to the state. He will support himself. He will provide for his family. His labour can be used -in carrying on important public works.
I venture therefore to appeal, by the sacred mercy which spared Cain, and the infinite power which transformed Moses, to every one whose heart beats for the suffering and whose soul yearns over the agonized, to look with the eye of a sorrowing father upon every prodigal in the land, and not to rest until they are won from the -misery of the brutal passions which .bind them as slaves, into the glorious freedom of the sons of God. There is greater joy in heaven over one murderer who is converted than over ninety and nine murderers who are justly (?) hanged in their sins.
I wish to quote the words of a friend of mine, and of some _other hon. gentlemen in this House. His Excellency, the Hon. Geo. W. P. Hunt, Governor of Arizona, *says:
The abolishment of capital punishment is an appeal to man's better nature, not his baser; to his reason, not his passion; to his thought, not his prejudice; to his hope for the future, and not his pitiful blindfold reverence for the customs of a dark and sanguinary past.
Wholly practical and essentially scientific, the protest against legalized killing must naturally look to education for its victory. Aeons struggled for expression. The subject is yet so new to the great majority who have viewed the corpse-strewn course of criminology until its gruesome way is become an accustomed sight, that the mind of the public must be aroused, its thoughts developed, study urged, investigations encouraged; and to this end, as an educational treatise for which there exists an ample and important field.
The blowing out of that God-lighted flame, the taking away coldly, deliberately, premeditatedly of a human life, either by an individual or by the chosen agents of a collection of individuals-the State-is an enormous respon-

sibility. Who views it lightly from the standpoint of the State is as great a menace to society as the criminal of disordered mind or distorted brain who employs it to achieve his evil ends.
I view it with the utmost solemnity, with a profound conviction of the terrible wrong it contemplates. Heroes are made of criminals. Respect for human life is lessened. The spirit of lawlessness is developed in the criminally inclined and in individuals of low mentality.
The evolutionary mutations of the centuries, from chaos almost to light, ever steadily advancing, educating, humanizing, building-up, reconstructing, will never halt, until at their feet shall stand the bright and shining goal whose motto gleams through the aurora of the Golden Rule. There will be no halt until the brutal and brutalizing process of expiation, which even now must hide in shame its visible symbols of ferocity, and in the deathly seclusion of high-walled keeps work its cruel way, shall be utterly destroyed, even as an awakening horror of this national crime has already forced its banishment from the public's hor-rored eyes.
I do not think that any man who has not witnessed an execution can vote intelligently on this question. In 1861, when I was a youth, I saw a young man hanged in Montreal, the executions in those days being public. I felt then that surely there was some better way for Canada to treat its criminals. When I saw that poor man strung up between heaven and earth and all his convulsions witnessed by some 20,000 people at the old Montreal jail, fighting and scrambling and some of them playing cards, T felt that as long as I lived I would do everything in my power to have capital punishment abolished in Canada. I know some hon. members think that I have a big task ahead of me; that I have so far not succeeded very well, and . that I probably never shall; but when I am gone, I feel certain that the Lord will raise up some young men whose eloquence in this House will bring about the abolishment of capital punishment.
Legalized killing must go. It is the only form of crime denied the individual, but preserved in the processes of the state. It fails in its aim to serve society, but holds humanity in check. It writes God's law in earthly statute books, and becomes the chief offender. It destroys, but it cannot renew. It punishes, yes, if we think of the broken hearts of wives and mothers and innocent babes, but it does not punish where it seeks. It works an example, true, but an example of blood and revenge and murder, and as it sows so it reaps. It protects, aye, it protects the world from one man's hand, a hand that may be easily held, but it gives no shield against the
malignity of a thousand passions by its crime unloosed. It deters, but it deters only love and good, and the growth of the brotherhood of man. Criminal tendencies are due largely to conditions for which the state, rather than the individual, is responsible?
The State would be justified in taking life in self-defence, but there is no other excuse for the State taking life and the State does not need to take life in self-defence. The death penalty is not in accord with the modern theory of penology. It does not reform the criminal. There is, regrettably, a disposition on the part of some of our most worthy citizens to bring passages of Scripture to the support of capital punishment. We have heard unto the point of weariness the quotation of the old Mosaic law of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." We do not hear so frequently, however, of Christ's own allusion to the Mosaic law in the following words:
Ye have heard it said in olden times, "An eye for an eye arid a tooth for a tooth," but I say unto you, love your enemies and pray for them that despitefully use you.
If any one, however adept in placing construction on the English language, is able, in the light of these words, to attribute even tacit support of the death penalty to the Saviour of mankind, he will exceed all bounds of mental agility within my comprehension. Again, we hear from those who would quote the Bible in justification of legalized murder, the citing of that part of the sixth verse of the ninth chapter of Genesis which reads as follows:
Whosoever sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed.
This has been very effectually answered by a statement with whose greatness every school child in America is familiar. I refer to Benjamin Franklin, who, in commenting upon the relation of the Old Testament to the death penalty, uttered the following words, alluding to the Scriptural passage quoted:	.
This has been supposed to imply that blood could only be expiated by blood. But I am disposed to believe with the best commentators on this text of Scripture, that it is rather a prediction than a law. The language of it is simply that such is the folly and depravity of man that in every age murder shall beget murder. Laws which inflict death for murder are, in my opinion, as un-Christian as those' who justify or tolerate revenge; for the obligation of Christianity upon individuals to promote repentance, to forgive injuries, and to discharge the duties of universal benevolence is equally binding upon the state.

To attempt to discover, on grounds of morality, any distinction between murder and legalized execution is the sheerest quibbling. The only instances recorded in law as murder extenuated and in a degree justifiable, are an officer's act in killing one who is resisting arrest, the course of action of any one who slays in attempting to prevent the committing of some forcible or atrocious crime, and the deed of homicide committed either in the heat of passion, by accident, or in self-defence. In none of these conditions can the State find a justification for capital punishment since a deliberate execution is not extenuated by any of these circumstances. Nothing tends to make the heart of an honest man or an honest woman bleed more than realizing that some innocent people are being hanged. Although I have here a dozen cases where innocent men have been hanged, and although I have no doubt there are hundreds of such cases, I will not detain the House by bringing them up this evening.
Capital punishment does not protect society; it is based on revenge, and is dangerous to society. It brutalizes human nature. Legal executions increase the number of murders. If I take a pistol and fire it at the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and the bullet strikes his watch and does not kill him, as far as I am concerned, my crime is just as bad as if the bullet did kill him. If I do not kill him, the chances are that I shall be imprisoned and not executed. If I do kill him, the chances are that I shall be executed. I claim that the crime is committed when the shot is fired. If I do not succeed in killing the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, that is not my fault; I am equally guilty as if I had killed him, but I shall not be hanged for it. Surely the hon. members of this House will see the distinction.
Judge Robert McMurdy of Chicago says that the death penalty is a cruel invention of caste. Ignorance lazily follows the beaten path; wisdom chooses the way. Readers of history cannot fail to perceive that the death penalty is disappearing step by step. We are told that deaths through religious persecution alone averaged thousands a year for a period of six hundred years. Hume quotes Harrison as authority for the statement that in the reign of Henry VIII seventy-two thousand persons were executed for theft and robbery; and in the "Golden age" of Elizabeth between three and four hundred a year. This reckless slaughter is no longer possible; and with less

sanguinary laws have come a number of other changes which indicate an advancing civilization. Trial by jury has been instituted; hanging in chains has been done away with; quartering and breaking on the wheel and burning at the stake have passed into tradition; the death penalty for political crimes has been abandoned generally; it has substantially disappeared for infanticide; the execution of a woman is rare; public hangings have been almost wholly abolished; two degrees of murder have been established by law, one of which in nearly all countries is not capital; in some forums the determination of the punishment to be inflicted is left to the jury. In these particulars we have gradually approached, and in others we are rapidly nearing, the abolition of the death penalty. This form of punishment is discriminatory. Because of the severity it is almost never inflicted upon a person of wealth or influence. In general we hang only such as belong to the abjectly miserable portion of humanity. The long and the short of the matter is that the death penalty is too severe to be inflicted upon the rich or the strong. It is one of the cruel inventions of caste,-it is a class penalty, just as some of the laws governing it have *been class laws. One of these men from the United States to whom I have referred said, " Why abolish capital punishment? Why not adopt our system of execution?" And he went on to explain 'how neatly it was done. I said (that I did not see there was much improvement. In the early days, in New York, they burned criminals at the stake until they were dead, now they bum them in the chair until they are dead. There is not much difference to the poor criminal. Is it cowardice? Most people justify the deliberate taking of a life by the state for the wilful taking of a life by a man on the ground that life is sacred and that he who takes it must expect the most severe of all punishments. But if life is sacred enough to be protected from destruction by personal violence, is it not so sacred that we should make it certain that it will not be taken through conspiracy, public prejudice or judicial mistake? Why not go a step further and say that life is so sacred that Canada should not take it at all? Among the Quakers, who live by this rule, there are no murders. The contemplation of an execution with the horrprs that accompany it degrades and brutalizes. The death penalty renders human life less sacred by inducing the desire for suicide on the part of the criminal, so that every prisoner under sentence of death is guard-

ed, lest he destroy himselt and thus set before the community another evidence of disregard for life. Cowardice has had much to do with retaining this form of punishment. In cases of murder we do mot inflict the extreme penalty for the crime itself, but for the result. If one discharges a load of buckshot into the breast of another with the distinct intention of murdering him, and it happens that the man survives, the punishment is limited to imprisonment. If the man dies, the penalty may be death. Morally, the crime is committed when the gun is discharged, and to be consistent the sacredness of human life and all the other arguments used to sustain and justify capital punishment demand that the offender be executed. Yet such is not the law. We refuse to abolish this penalty for crime which results in death because we fear that our lives may be less secure. In other countries this fear has come to the surface when it was proposed to abolish the punishment, although the abolition, in every instance, proved the fear to be unfounded.
A. penalty so severe as not to be enforceable has a basic objection; it produces unrest to have a constant miscarriage of justice. A wealthy malefactor, an influential murderer cannot go free in a community where paupers and friendless foreigners and prodigals are hanged, without the people acquiring a contempt for the laws, such as they felt in England during the period of fifteen years when 555 verdicts were rendered for stealing from dwellings thirty-nine shillings, at a time when it was a capital offence to steal forty shillings. When the amount was changed to five pounds the juries raised their verdicts to four pounds, nineteen shillings.
Capital punishment is generally defended upon religious grounds. The passage upon which those who favour the death penalty rely is that part of the sixth verse of the ninth chapter of Genesis, which reads: " Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." These are the words of the Old Testament. If we are to derive our authority for capital punishment from that part of the Good Book, we may likewise there find our authority for slavery, since we are told that " of the heathen that are round about " us we shall make bondmen. And by these words slavery was defended not very long ago. We are told in Exodus that " He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death," and that if an ox known by its owner to be vicious escapes from its stall
and kills a human being, the ox and " his owner also shall be put to death ". To be consistent, then, those who undertake to sustain capital punishment by the sentence from Genesis must uphold hanging for cursing a parent, or even for negligence in the care of a vicious ox; and for thirty-three transgressions, including witchcraft, all of which are designated as capital in the Mosaic law. The doctrine of " life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth," given us by the Old Testament, is expressly repudiated in the New. We are told that vengeance is the Lord's; we are commanded after the most solemn fashion not to kill and if we adhere to the original Hebrew, expressly enjoined not to kill man.
Aside from the fact that no sufficient warrant is to be found in the Scriptures for the infliction of death as a punishment, it would seem clear that the State has the right to deprive a man of his civil rights only. It may lawfully withdraw its protection and its. privileges from an offender, but the right of a human being to live is derived from the Creator, and the State cannot justly take it away. Constantine prohibited branding the faces of criminals because he believed it to be a violation of the law of nature to mar the majesty of the human face. And nature's first law is life. No one has the right to take his own life, and therefore no one has the right to consent that others shall take it. It follows that if others acquire such a right it must be wholly on the specious ground of selfdefence, or " expediency ", as it is generally called. A matter of logic. All logical minds agree on this fundamental proposition :	If the death penalty does not
deter, or if communities are safe without it, we have no right to retain it; for, under either of these conditions, it cannot be justified on the ground of self-defence or expediency. Let us proceed to learn from the facts that both these conditions obtain.
So far as the penalty is aimed at criminals it would seem to be useless. Such deterrents do not Teach to the subnormal. In general this class of people do not prize life highly. Moreover, criminals who are homicides, as a class, are not to be frightened. They are the bravest of their kind. Many of them in committing murder have had the courage to risk their own lives. While the constant recollection that the state has fixed the extreme punishment for murder may induce a habit of mind averse to committing the crime, it is by no means certain

Even in those cases where the murder is proved to the satisfaction of the most exact mind, there is no way of determining whether the culprit was sane when he committed the act. If insanity is present, the very nature of the disease often leads the offender to conceal its symptoms. If a man of normal mind should commit murder and be convicted, it cannot be known absolutely whether at the time of his hanging he is mentally sound. Yet our nature revolts at the thought of hanging a man who is insane, and the law does not permit his execution. To the hanging of women there is a special objection. More than one instance is related of an unborn child being destroyed at the same time with the mother. Such a result may be avoided, but the objection illustrates what all these facts accentuate, the difficulties that surround the infliction of this penalty. Throughout history man has been endeavouring to devise some decent method of putting a brother to death in cold blood. Hanging has been preferred to other methods because it does not literally shed blood; but a bungling hangman or a faulty rope may make it most revolting. Electrocution is but the forerunner of abolition. What nature has rendered so difficult, man should accept as forbidden.
With regard to the deterrent effect, let any one cast his mind back to the days of the Declaration of Independence. One of the greatest chapters in history would never have been written if the men who signed the Declaration of Independence had been in fear of the rope; but they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing that the rope was hanging over them. We hang men because they are rebels. We hanged Riel, a man whom I knew very well. He was no more guilty than George Washington was; they were both rebels- one succeeded and became the father of his country, the other failed and was hanged.
At six o'clock the House adjourned, without question put, pursuant to the rule.
Thursday, February 1, 1917.