1914-06-10

QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	What were the gross amounts of customs duties collected during the fiscal years 1912-13 and 1913-14, on the articles affected by the changes in the tariff proposed by the Minister of Finance in his Budget speech this session?
2.	What would such gross customs duties have amounted to had the tariff changes now-proposed been in effect?


Mr. OLIVER:: Might I ask on behalf of Mr. Knowles if there is likely to be an answer to this question this session?


Mr. REID:: It will take some little time to look this matter up. I do not know whether I shall :be able to get the answer or not.


Frank Oliver: The question has been on the Order Paper for some little time.


Mr. WHITE:: In regard to the second
part of the question, it will not be possible to give an accurate answer; it will be a matter of more or less accurate estimate.


Frank Oliver: That would have been a proper answer at the proper time; but it is mot fair to allow the question to stand as a question for so long, and then say it cannot be answered.


PEMBROKE ARMOURY.
*Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Who was the successful tenderer for the armoury at Pembroke and what was the amount of the tender?
2.	Was his the lowest tender?
3.	Has any change been made in the amount of the original tender? If so, why?
4.	Were new tenders invited on account of such changes?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Beatty, Reinke and Lachance; $43,220.14.
2 and 3. Tenders were originally called for this work by the Department of Militia and Defence, the lowest, $34,375.30, being submitted by Beatty, Reinke and Lachance. It was found necessary to alter the plans and specifications prepared by the Department of Militia and Defence in order to strengthen the building; and when the lowest tenderers were asked for a price on these alterations, they submitted one of $8,844.84. This

was reported by the chief architect as being fair and reasonable.
The site originally donated by the town of Pembroke was found unsuitable for the building, and another site was subsequently obtained. This change also necessitated a further expenditure of $4,455.01. A change in the flooring has been made at an additional outlay of $560, and minor changes in the stairways have been authorized at an expenditure of $90.75.
4. No.


REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE STATISTICS.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	What was the revenue from the customs and all other sources respectively for the months of April and May, 1914, respectively?
2.	What was the expenditure on Consolidated Fund account and Capital account, respectively, for the months of April and May, 1914, respectively?


William Thomas White: April.	May.'	Total.Revenue: Customs	
Other revenue	
Totals	
Expenditure: Consolidated Fund	
Capital	
Railway subsidies	
Totals	$6,695,599 43 3,153,399 08	$ 7,430,264 64 4,292,898 26	$14,125,864 07 7,446,297 34$9,848,998 51	$11,723,162 90	$21,572,161 41$840,411 11 39,849 90 111,579 96	$4,664,144 37 1,007,004 49 680,316 00	$5,504,555 48 1,046,854 39 791,895 96$991,840 97	$6,351,464 86	$7,343,305 83
The figures in the answer are, of course, accurate; but they are likely to be misleading, because payments made under letters of credit in April and May are charged up in the following months. I have asked my deputy to write a letter of explanation to the hon. member for Halifax.


EMPLOYMENT OF ALBERT TREMBLAY.
Mr. ERNEST LAPOINTE:: 1.	Is Albert Tremblay, cheesemaker at St. Aubert, county of L'lslet, employed by the Department of Agriculture?
2.	If so, what is his position, when was he appointed, and what is his salary?


Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Dairy recorder. Appointed on the 1st April, 1914. Salary $1,200 per annum.


ST. MAURICE SHAWINIGAN STATION.
Mr. BUREAU:: What are the names of the men who were employed by the Department of Public Works on the St. Maurice Shawinigan station during the month of April, 1913, and what was the amount paid to each of these men for said month of April?


Mr. ROGERS:: Names of men employed at the St. Maurice Shawinigan station during the month of April, 1913, and the amount paid to them: Ferd. Ducharme, $65; Ferd. St. Onge, $62.50; Joseph Beaumier,

$57.50; Joseph Richard, $65; Pierre Loren-ger, $65; George Julien, $40; Emile Vincent, $52; Pierre Bisson, $52; Joseph Rheault, $12.50; Joseph Grenier, $65; Sam. Bisson, $52; Joseph Veilleux, $65; Joseph BeauprA $65; Ferd. Daigle, $65; Gonzague Desaul-niers, $58.50; Raoul Grenier, $45.50; Ernest Morin, $60; J. B. H. Courteau, $31; Evan-geliste Massicotte, $21; Omer Loranger, $14; Edmond Vincent, $10; Joseph Courteau, $18.75; Theodore Adam, $15; Napoleon Pel-lerin, $12.50.


UNOPPOSED AND UNDISCUSSED MOTION.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. Carroll.-For a return showing the amount of money sent through the post offices in the past five years to places outside Canada from the following Cape Breton post offices: Glace Bay, Caledonia Mines, Dominion No. 4, New Aberdeen, Bridgeford, Old Bridgeford, New Waterford, Reserve Mines, Sydney, Whitney Pier, Ashby, North Sydney, Sydney Mines, Florence, Dominion No. 6, and Port Marrien; to what countries such money was transmitted.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Mr. 0. TURGEON: Before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I beg to call the attention of the Prime Minister and of the Government to the calamity which

befell the fishermen of Caraqnet and Ship-pigan on Friday last during the terrible storm. At first I thought that perhaps only a few individual eases of loss would be reported, but later reports show that it has been a real disaster, and that numbers of families are left to-day without a breadwinner, both father and son having been taken away from mother and children; and the Caraquet fishing fleet is crippled ae to its operations for the present season of navigation, as perhaps one-third or one-quarter of the vessels have been either broken up or dismantled. It is a -case which calls for the assistance of the Government. I believe lit is true that not only the Gloucester fishermen but those of Gaspe and Bonaventure have suffered severely, but from all accounts the Caraquet fishing fleet appears to have suffered the greatest in the number of lives and the amount of property lost. I appeal to the Government under these circumstances, because it is a calamity that has touched a portion of the most valiant people in New Brunswick, who take each year from the sea a yield of fish that contributes immensely to the wealth of the province. We have on some occasions voted money, very properly, and none too generously, in my opinion, for the fishermen, say, of Newfoundland, and for the sufferers in the recent disaster to the Empress of Ireland; but, as this is a case in which a whole county, with the pursuit of generations, is affected, it merits the attention of the Government; and I hope that the Prime Minister and his colleagues, especially the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, whom I see in his seat, will be impressed with the necessity of voting a sum of money appropriate to the exigencies of the circumstances.
It is one of those disasters which cannot be explained. For the last fourteen years not one life has been lost in the fishing fleet of Gloucester which numbers about 8,900 men. The storm came without warning. I do not wish to impute any fault to the keepers of signals. I know that our fishermen pay serious attention to any signal that may be given. But the reports say that the storm came without warning, in the midst of the darkness, and was accompanied by a fall of snow, which no one expected on the 4th of June. I hope the Government will take this matter into serious consideration and vote an amount adequate to the circumstances I e-fore Parliament prorogues.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: Early this imoming,
when my right hon. friend the Prime Minister, quite naturally, had left the House, I drew the attention of the Minister of Marine to the very severe storm which had occurred on the coast of Bonaventure and Gaspe, and I repeat what I said during the night that it seems to me that the Government should come to the rescue of the unfortunate families who have been bereaved. I understand from a letter I have received that about twenty-five fishermen on the coasts of Gaspe and Gloucester have perished.


Mr. HAZEN:: The matter referred to by my hon. friend from Gloucester (Mr. Tur-geon) was brought to the attention of the House at an early hour this morning by the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux),whentheEstimatesof ,my department were under consideration. That hon. gentleman understood therehad been a loss of life on the Gaspe coast of something like twenty. I may say that since the hon. gentleman brought that matter to my attention, I have received a letter from Mr. A. J. H. Stewart, a member of the New Brunswick Legislature, in which he states that the loss of life is over 100, including the loss of life in Quebec and New Brunswick. Further than that, he says that in a number of cases at least tbe houses of the fishermen have been destroyed by the force of what was a cyclone, so that in many cases families have not only been deprived of their breadwinner, but of their homes as well.	.
I understand that this cyclone came without a moment's warning. Whether or not there was any weakness in the signal service I do not know, but from information we have at present I am disposed to think that it was one of those unforeseen events that no human agency could have guarded against. My attention was called to this letter of Mr. Stewart's last night, just after the House adjourned. I had a night message sent to a gentleman in Caraquet, Mr. Fred Young, asking him if he could give us information regarding the extent of the disaster that we could rely upon. I am waiting for that information now.
The difficulty about asking Parliament for a vote now is that we have not at the present time sufficient information to enable the Government to come to an adequate conclusion as to what amount of aid they should give, if they give any aid at all. Unless we can get further particulars re-

garding the extent of the disaster, we might be giving too little aid, or too much. I hope, however, we shall have information upon which an intelligent conclusion may be arrived at in the course of a few days, and if the information does not come in time to ask for a vote at this session, perhaps the matter can be dealt with by a Governor General's warrant, if the Government, with all the facts before them, consider that aid should be given to relieve the suffering entailed upon those left behind on account of the disaster.
The disaster is, no doubt, a very great one. In all my experience I have never known of such a calamity in the province of New Brunswick; and I am sure that the hon. member for Gloucester has the sympathy of every one here, and that the sympathy of the whole country will go out to these fishermen; and we all trust that later reports will show that the disaster is not so great as it would appear to be from those we have received up to the present time.


Mr. TURGEON:: I appreciate very sincerely the sympathetic remarks of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and as the time before the closing of Parliament is very limited, I might say to the hon. minister that, in a matter of urgency like this any amount appropriated by the Government after Parliament closes will certainly receive the sanction of Parliament at the next session.


Mr. BORDEN:: The matter brought to the attention of the Government by my hon. friends from Gloucester (Mr. Turgeon) and Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) is one worthy of careful consideration. It has already been brought to my attention this morning by my colleague, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. It may not be possible to get such information as should be before the Government in order to enable us to act this session; but if that is not practicable, I think some other satisfactory way of dealing with it may be found. I can assure my hon. friends that it will not fail to engage the attention of the Government.


COASTWISE TRADE.
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Mr. KYTE:: I desire to call the attention of the Minister of Customs to a communication I have received from a gentleman in Halifax this morning, which is as follows:

Halifax, Canada, June 5, 1914. George W. Kyte, Esq., M.P.,
Ottawa.
Dear Mr. Kyte :	-
A few weeks ago the schooner Seth Jr., from the central American Republic of Colon was loaded with salt by the Jersey firm of Collas, Jones, Whitman and Company for Gaspd coastwise trade. I understand captains and ship owners here protested against her clearance from the customs. To-day's paper states she is registered now in Halifax. Kindly inquire into the matter and let me know if she paid the duty. She is valued at $18,000.


John Dowsley Reid: If the hon. member will send me that letter I will have an official answer from the department in about half an hour and will send it to him.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
To provide for the expenses of commission to prepare plans relating to the cities of Ottawa and Hull, $55,000.
['No, they are not.\nResolutions reported.']
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: Has the minister any explanation of this?


William Thomas White: My right hon. friend is aware
that the Government, acting jointly with the city of Ottawa and the city of Hull, has appointed a commission for the purpose of drawing up a plan looking to the future development of the cities of Ottawa and1 Hull. The commission consists of Mr. H. S. Holt, of Montreal, who is chairman; Sir Alexander Lacoste; Mr. R. Home Smith apd Mr. Frank Darling, of the city of Toronto; and the mayors of the city of Ottawa and the city of Hull, ex-officio. The commission is engaged at present in the preparation of a plan. The estimate now undep consideration provides for an expenditure of $55,000, made up as follows: Engineering, office rent, adtninistrative services and drafting, $27,160; engineering consultation and expenses, $26,000; architectural office administration and drafting, $17,500; architectural consultation and expenses, $7,500; the commissioners' expenses 'to and from Ottawa, $1,200; making a total of $55,960. The work for the year will consist of the continuation and completion of general surveys and surveys of specific details as to city plans, maps and data; also an analysis of ultimate administration required and floor space in buildings, both government and civic. Further, an analysis of the street system with a view to the recommendation of improvements. The commission have also under consideration the de-

velopment of a general plan of the city and the surrounding country, a study of the park system, a study of the transportation system and the preparation of drawings illustrating the developments suggested. Considerable work was done during the year ending March 31, the commissioners having ibeen appointed in October last. After the commission was appointed officials were retained and engaged and lines of study were laid out. Prior to the appointment of the commission a contour-map was prepared by Mr. Cauchon on the scale of 400 feet to the inch and a plan, 1,200 feet to the inch, of Ottawa and surrounding country on the Ontario side. The consulting and landscape architect and town-planner is Mr. E. H. Bennett, of Chicago. The consulting engineer is Mr. E. L. Cousins, of Toronto; the assistant engineer, Mr. A. E. K. Bunnell. In addition, there are four draughtsmen, seven surveyors and an assistant secretary. Offices have been retained and axe now occupied in the Booth building here.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am not sure that the plan proposed toy my hon. friend is the best one possible, but I do not propose to offer any objection except in one respect. The gentlemen who have been appointed to the commission are certainly very excellent men, most of them eminent in their professions; tout I doubt if men actively engaged in business will have the leisure to devote to this work which it really requires. I would prefer my hon. friend to have selected men not actively engaged in business, but having, of course, great experience in matters of this kind. It may be that my criticism is inopportune. If the results, however, are -such as my hon. friend anticipates, he will be justified in the selection he has made. Up to the present time I understand that no work has been done. The only practical thing that has been accomplished is the preparation of a contour map of Hull and Ottawa. If there is such a plan, it would be interesting to have a copy laid on the table of the House for the benefit of those who take an interest in the matter. Who is the permanent engineer in charge of this work?


William Thomas White: Mr. Cousins is the permanent consulting engineer.


Wilfrid Laurier: I see you have here $27,000 for engineering offices at Ottawa.


William Thomas White: The item in question covers the rental of engineering offices and the cost of administration, including the salaries of- the staff engaged both in the survey and in drafting work.


Wilfrid Laurier: Who is in
charge of the surveying work at Ottawa?


William Thomas White: Mr. Cousins is the consulting engineer; the assistant engineer is Mr. Bunnell. In addition, there -are four draughtsmen, seven surveyors and an assistant secretary, all actively engaged in the work at the present time. A great deal of work has already been done.


Wilfrid Laurier: Mr. Cousins
is simply consulting engineer. Who is in charge of the office at Ottawa?


William Thomas White: The office is in the general charge of Mr. Cousins, and in addition there is an assistant engineer.
Sir	WILFRID	LAURIER:	-Does	Mr. Cousins reside in Ottawa?


William Thomas White: No. I do not think it is necessary that there should be an engineer in continuous charge from day	to day.
Sir	WILFRID	LAURIER:	Some	one
should be in charge of the office at Ottawa. Mr. Cousins and his assistant both live in Toronto, I understand, so they cannot direct the office work here at Ottawa.


William Thomas White: But they are directing it.
Sir	WILFRID	LAURIER:	From	Toronto?


William Thomas White: The office staff here under the supervision of Mr. Cousins is carrying on the work properly.


Wilfrid Laurier: Is there no
resident officer in charge at Ottawa? Mr. Cousins and the other man both live in Toronto. I see that $27,000 is to toe expended in the city of Ottawa, but so far I have not been able to get from my hon. friend who is in charge of the work here.


William Thomas White: I have told my right hon. friend that Mr. Cousins is in general charge. It is not necessary for him to be here every day. If he were, the cost would be very much more than $27,000. It is not necessary to have a resident engineer in charge of the work of preparing the surveys and plans. The engineer in the first place outlines a course to be followed toy his assistants, and he can see from time to time how the work is going on. It would only increase the expenses to instruct an ex-

pensive engineer to remain in Ottawa all the time.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand
this office is managed from the city of Toronto, and I do not think that is the proper way of doing it. I think my hon. friend should have an engineer at Ottawa in charge of the work, to see that it is properly executed. This commission is composed of gentlemen who nearly all reside outside of Ottawa, and I do not think we shall get value for our money; 'but that remains to he seen. They have not made a report up to the present time?


William Thomas White: No. My right hon. friend evidently overlooks the fact that this commission is engaged in an extensive work which will occupy them for a considerable length of time. The scheme is very comprehensive and far-reaching, and a great deal of data has to be compiled before the work of actually preparing the plan can be commenced. My hon. friend has referred to the personnel of the commission. ' It seems to me that we could not have selected more capable men. Mr. Holt is one of the most energetic business men of Canada. He is one of those men who, when they take up a thing pursue it to the end, and I have no doubt that he will perform his duties creditably both to himself and the Government. Sir Alexander Lacoste is well known in Montreal, and I do not think any exception can be taken to him. Mr. R. Home Smith, of Toronto, has had very great experience in the laying out of real estate, and has good judgment with regard to town planning. He has taken considerable interest in the matter of town planning for the city of Toronto. Mr. Frank Darling, of Toronto, is one of the most eminent architects in Canada. t In addition, the cities of Hull and Ottawa are both represented by their mayors. The Dominion Government will pay half the cost of the preparation of this plan, and the cities of Ottawa and Hull will pay in proportion to their population. It takes some time to get work of this kind under way. I do not think that expensive engineers should give up their whole time to a matter of this kind, especially at the inception of the work. The first thing to be done was to obtain a contour map of Ottawa and its environs, and that was done over a year ago. It is now available for the commission, which will make use of the information contained in that map. Officials are now at work obtaining further necessary information as to the amount of

floor and office space in the city of Ottawa which it is expected the Dominion Government will require in the future having regard to the probable growth of the Dominion. All that is by way of compilation, and will be available before the actual work of plotting the plan is started. If there is one thing I have been impressed with, it is the energy and expedition with which the commission has taken up this work. Immediately upon Mr. Holt's appointment he made a visit to Minneapolis and certain other cities for the purpose of gathering information to assist him in the discharge of his duties. The others have been at Ottawa on various occasions, and there is no question that the office here is organized on a business basis and is doing efficiently work which it was designed to carry out.


Wilfrid Laurier: I have nothing to say against the commissioners who have been selected. Mr. Holt in particular is a very able man, but though an able man, he is a still more busy man. I have my doubts whether Mr. Holt will be able to give the attention which should be given to the work of this undertaking. If he can give the attention to it I am sure the work will be well done. I do not know whether Sir Alexander Lacoste can give his time to the work or not; I have no information about that. As to the other two gentlemen, I do not know that I can say anything. But, my hon. friend will permit me to say that if he thinks he can have this work done without anybody to supervise it he will find that he is making a mistake. He may call that business, but I do not.


William Thomas White: My right hon. friend puts into my mouth what I did not say. My right hon. friend has said that these gentlemen are busy men. So they are, but my experience has been that busy men find time to do things, and that they are more likely to find time than men of the leisured class. My right hon. friend has expressed a preference for those not actually engaged in business, or those who have retired. I think he might have his hands full in finding retired men capable of doing this work as well as the members of the present commission. I have here a report from the mayor of the city of Ottawa under date of April 28 of this year-and it must not be lost sight of that the cities of Ottawa and Hull are represented by their mayor upon this commission. I have heard no com-complaint, except from my right hon


Rodolphe Lemieux: I read in the press yesterday that Mr. Holt was resigning from many boards of trade because of his numerous occupations in various fields. If, indeed, Mr. Holt is resigning in order to give more time to this commission, I dare say that a better choice than my hon. friend has made could not be made. But I doubt that Mr. Holt is resigning from so many boards for the purpose of devoting all his attention to the commission.


William Thomas White: Certainly Mr. Holt is not resigning for the purpose of giving his entire time to this commission, because his entire time is not necessary. Mr. Holt is a man of good executive ability, and he will give sufficient time to the duties of this commission. I have every confidence that he will perform his duties as chairman to the satisfaction of the Government.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If he does, so much the better for the country.


William Thomas White: Hear, hear.
Charges of management, $498,450.


Rodolphe Lemieux: In the Senate the other day a question was put by the Hon. "Senator Power, of Halifax, as to the rate of interest on deposits in the post office savings banks. Does my hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Mr. White) think that in the present financial condition he would not be doing well by increasing the rate of interest on the savings in the post office savings banks? There is a general outcry amongst the plain people of this country against the low rate of interest the Government pays its depositors. Could not my hon. friend take t!ie interests of the plain people to his heart, and pro bono publico increase the rate of interest paid to depositors in the post office savings banks by one per cent?


William Thomas White: That matter has frequently been discussed in the House. The raising the interest rate on savings deposits in the post office, and in the chartered banks of the Dominion, would be followed by an increase in the discount rate. If my hon. friend had taken the trouble that I have to look into this matter, and had examined the statement of, say, the Bank of Montreal, he would have found that to increase the rate of interest by even one half of one per cent would have a very serious effect on the earning power of that institution. The result would be to increase the discount

rate to the manufacturers and business people of Canada.


Mr. FOWLER:: The discount rate has been increased already.


William Thomas White: In certain places; hut the average discount rate has not been increased. After all, I think this matter should be approached in a business way. We should look at the statements of the banks, not of one particular bank or even two or three, but of the banks as a whole. The Bank of Montreal is of course the greatest financial institution in Canada, and its balance sheet affords evidence that an increase in the rate upon its savings deposits would have a very considerable influence upon its earnings, so much so, that the inevitable result would be an increase in the discount rate not only in the case of the Bank of Montreal, but as regards every bank in the country. This question has been before other Ministers of Finance, and I think they have reached substantially the same conclusion. For the present, at all events, I see no prospect of increasing the interest rate on deposits in the post office savings banks. I may say that my predecessor reduced the interest rate on such deposits, giving as his reason that in consequence of its being an artificial rate the discount rate had been found burdensome to business. I believe in giving to depositors what their money is worth; but money on call, or practically on call, never obtains the rate of interest which is obtained on money that is left for a period of years. I may say further, that in estimating the rate of interest paid to depositors in the post office savings banks, certain items of expense have to be taken into account. In the first place, 10 per cent of the gold reserve must toe maintained. Gold is barren, and consequently the rate of interest, instead of toeing 3 per cent, becomes 3 1-3 per cent. Next, the cost of administration must be added, bringing the rate in excess of 3i per cent. As I have pointed out, the interest rate which can be obtained on money which is not to be called for until the end of a period of years, is always higher than the rate of interest paid on money practically on call.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Are post office savings deposits increasing?


William Thomas White: I am unable to say offhand.
Patent Office-For purchase of equipment and supplies, $7,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is that5


Mr BURRELL:: In 1898, we made an arrangement with the United States Patent Office for the exchange of drawings and plans issued by the respective patent offices. In 1899, we sent down copies of 43,000 plans we had issued, but, unfortunately, the arrangement was broken by the United States. Only last year
12 noon, we sent Mr. Lynch down theTe, and he succeeded in getting the Government to renew the agreement. Congress was asked to vote $50,000, and they will send us a million back copies. This $7,000 is needed to carry out our side of the bargain.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not want my toon, friend to toe disturbed by the sight of this memorandum I have in my hand, but I wish to say a few words on the question of tobacco growing. This memorandum is in French, but, as my hon. Mend is a good French scholar, he will be able to understand it, and can think over it at his five o'clock tea. It was sent to me toy the electors of Rouville county. They claim that the Minister of Agriculture has neglected this question of tobacco growing 'in the county I represent. I will read what it says:
It is easy to realize by comparison between the reports appearing as appendices in the minister's reports (1907-1912) and the short note contained in the minister's report (1913, page 36), the relative importance attributed to the tobacco service since it was connected with the experimental farm service (January, 1913).
On the other hand, it may be judged by the notes on tobacco growing which were picked out of the reports made by the horticulturist (19041905) as to whether it was time that the work towards improvement and development, undertaken since 1896, should be entrusted to a service specialized in this branch of the farming industry.
The series of bulletins published by the tobacco service (No. A-l to No. A-14) gives an idea of the mass of information which was put within the reach of the tobacco planters in Canada.
For the last few years, up to July, 1912, those bulletins were published in the shape of reports, mentioning in detail the work effected at the experimental stations and laying stress upon the results which had been achieved. It is found that those reports were published shortly after the fiscal year had expired, whereas the report from the experimental farms is forwarded to the public but a long time after.
On the other hand, it may be noticed that the appendix to the minister's report having reference to tobacco growing was not limited to mentioning the results obtained during the season, but was somewhat a comment upon those same results, and at the same time, an outline of a programme. Nothing similar is to be found in the reports, forcibly shortened for want of

space, which were published since the year 1912 has come to an end.
The previous organization, in the shape of a branch under the direct control of the minister, offered the following advantages:
It did away with the very long delays in the publication of the reports;
It made the questions under consideration more important in the opinion of the chief of the service (these latter being put forcibly into the background, in an organization so comprehensive as that of the experimental farms) and even in the opinion of the minister, with whom the chief of the service could communicate directly, laying stress, if need be, upon certain particular points the interest of which can escape anybody else than a specialist;
It gave this latter a freer hand, he being not obliged to follow the ways of a complicated organization, many branches of which have no relation to the tobacco industry ;
It made the execution of the work more rapid, which is of great moment when one has to deal with a crop occupying the soil for so short a time as does the tobacco plant, and with a service comparatively new and not yet completely established, and liable to very numerous emergencies;
It made the responsibility entirely incumbent on a specialist conversant with all the phases of the industry to be developed.
An instance of the efficiency of the previous organization is afforded by the rapid transformation which was brought about with respect to the type of tobaccos grown at Saint-C6saire since the possibility of using those tobaccos in the manufacture of cigars has been demonstrated to the manufacturers in Montreal and Quebec. Tobaccos which sold regularly at 7 or 8 cents a pound went up as high as 15 cents, and this advance was portioned out on all the tobaccos in the province of Quebec.
It must be noted that the organization in the shape of a branch would not be more costly than the organization in the shape of a division.
It looks strange that, after the organization and the development of a service to a certain extent has been allowed, its importance should be reduced the moment certain questions relating to the tobacco industry itself seem to become more serious and more complicated.
The farmers in Ontario have shown, during last winter, how dissatisfied they were with the treatment which is meted out to them by the manufacturers. The planters in Quebec are just about as dissatisfied and the co-operative of Saint-C6saire has undergone, recently, a serious crisis.
It seems desirable that a more complete organization, especially as far as the number of inspectors is concerned, should be established under no delay. The Canadian planters are beginning to realize that they must look to the Department of Agriculture for a chance of success, and with that purpose in view, it is necessary that they should come into the closest contact possible with them.
If we consider that the operation, very simple in appearance, of desiccating a crop of tobacco, requires, in certain cases (drying by fire -drying by hot air) expert specialist, we fully realize that this is a real industry, a farming industry, evidently, but one which is clearly specialized. The very difficulty which is experienced in securing experts conversant enough with just one of those processes proves the fact to evidence.
As for the other phases in the curing of tobacco, the sorting and the fermentation, they have practically nothing to do with the growing, and when we realize their importance and the different treatments which they imply, we see how logical it would be to re-establish a branch devoted exclusively to the study of those different questions. Let us add that, among the problems to be solved, the most important are, perhaps, those relating to the organization of the planters in view of the curing and of the sale of their produce.
It is only fair to admit that the tobacco industry in Canada-especially the part of this industry which depends really upon the home production-cannot be compared, for its importance, say with the animal industry or the dairy industry. However, the complexity of the problems to be solved, the wideness of the scope to be covered in the domain of practical farming and practical industry, as well as in the domain of research, for it must be borne in mind that the growing of tobacco in Canada is done under very special climatic conditions-all this would seem to justify, on the part of the service appointed to improve and to develop this industry, a broader initiative as well as a complete responsibility.
I would like my hon. friend /to give this matter hie consideration, and to send out more instructors.


Mr. BURRELL:: Wle have just secured an additional man from France for that purpose.
For the administration and enforcement of the Meat and Canned Foods Act-Further amount required, $15,000.


Mr. CARROLL:: Are the food inspectors paid out of thlis?


Martin Burrell: No.
Office of the Conservation Commission-To provide for one clerkship in first diivsion, subdivision * B,' $2,100.


Martin Burrell: That is for the appointment of John Fixter, [DOT]who has been transferred from the outside to the inside service.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act to the contrary.
Mr. MoCREA: I asked for a return showing how much money had been spent in the county of Sherbrooke for agricultural purposes.


Martin Burrell: That information was
given as an answer to a question.


Mr. McCREA:: Yes; but I notice that Mr. F. Campbell, who is an attorney, is connected with all these matters. I want to know how much, if anything, has been paid to Mr. Campbell and others for their services.


Martin Burrell: I will try and secure
that information for my hon. friend.
Conciliation and Labour Act, including publication, printing, binding and distribution of the Labour Gazette, and allowance to correspondents, and for clerical assistance in preparing tables of statistics-further amount required, $4,700.


William F. Carroll: I want to call the attention of the Minister of Labour to a matter that has been brought to my attention by a gentleman in the town of Truro, who has taken some interest in the comparative prices paid for labour, and also in' the hours of service required in connection with public works in various parts of Canada He has gone very thoroughly into the matter; and I notice, in a circular letter which he has issued, that in the town of Truro

and I presume in the eastern section of Canada- men are required to work for nine or ten hours a day n Government works, whereas in the province of British Columbia they are required to work for only eight hours a day. Has that matter been brought to the attention of the minister?


Mr. CROTHERS:: My attention has not been called to the condition nor to the letter to which my hon. friend refers; but I know that the wages paid vary in different parts of the country, just as the wages paid by contractors vary.


William F. Carroll: I understand that, because the wages would be regulated by the fair-wage schedule. What about the hours
of service?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The number of hours varies also. When we make up a schedule, we ascertain the wages paid in the district to the different classes of labour, and also the number of hours of work. The men work sometimes for eight, sometimes nine and sometimes ten hours a day. Then we make up the schedule according to the conditions in the district in which the work is to be done.


William F. Carroll: I do not think it is fair to ask a man to work for nine hours a day in the Maritime provinces where he receives less pay than he does in British Columbia where he has to work for only eight hours. There is no law in* Canada governing the hours of labour; and I can understand that in certain trades the men have, by virtue of the strength of their unions, an eight-hour day. In the eastern part of the province, for instance in the city of Sydney-I will mot speak for Truro, because I do not know about conditions
in that town-and in the city of Halifax the carpenters work for only eight or eight and a half hours a day. I understand that there is legislation governing the rate of wages paid under a contract, namely, that the rate is governed by the rate of wages paid in the district in which the work is being carried on; but I do not think it should hold good in regard to the hours, there being no law governing the matter. The minister might investigate the matter during the summer and see if he does not agree with me in regard to it.


Mr. VERVILLE:: Can the Minister of
Labour give me any information as to the trouble that existed last year between the Harbour Commissioners and the carpenters at Montreal? Is anything being done to settle the trouble that was in existence before the minister's trip to England?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Two weeks ago we took that .matter up with the members of the Montreal Harbour Commission; and the acting chairman at that time agreed that, if there were any complaints made by the carpenters working for the harbour commissioners, he would be very glad to take the matter up with our fair-wage officer tnd fo do everything possible to make things satisfactory to the men. Many complaints have been made in that respect for years; we have from time to time sent the fail wage officer, Mr. Dubreuil, to Montreal to arrange matters with	the	Board
of Harbour Commissioners, and he has generally succeeded	in adjusting them to the satisfaction of the men. A few months ago he did not succeed; the matter was taken up with the acting chairman of the harbour commissioners by one of the ministers, and the chairman undertook to meet the fair wage officer at any time that complaints were made and to do everything possible to meet his requests.


Alphonse Verville: If I understand the
minister aright, what he says now is not in regard to the past, but for the future. What transpired last year is still pending. I do not suppose the carpenters have received any satisfaction. I know that the minister, before his trip to England, told the harbour men that, on his return, he would do everything possible to settle the question.
I want the minister's interpretation of the fair-wage clause. If my memory is
* 

correct, I believe he has already given an interpretation of that clause to the labour men of Montreal. For instance, suppose a contract is let with the fair-wage clause attached thereto, and suppose wages increase ini the different trades during the operation of that contract, will the contractor be compelled, under the contract he has signed with the Government, to pay that increase?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: That would depend
altogether upon the wording of the contract. We have had different forms' of contract, some of them containing a minimum wage and also a general clause, the general clause providing that the contractor would have to pay the current rate of wages even if it was above the minimum rate fixed in the schedule. Wherever there has been a clause of that kind in the contract, we have insisted upon the contractors following the wages, and, if they increase, paying whatever the current rates of wages are. In some of the contracts there has been no such thing as a general clause of that character, simply a minimum clause. I brought before the Government, before I was laid away for a while, the matter of providing for a uniform provision in all the contracts touching labour, so that there would be no difference between a contract entered into by one contractor and that entered into by another. I expect to get that into shape as soon as the session is over, so that we will have no divergence. It depends now upon the wording of the contract. We found that, in some contracts made with a general clause, we were in a position to insist upon the contractor following the wages even if they went up; in others 1 have been unable to do it.


Alphonse Verville: This question is a very important one, because sometimes workmen are employed believing, that if there should be an increase in wages during the performance of the contract, they are supposed to receive it; and the minister states that the difficulty might be in the wording of the contract. I hope that in future all contracts will be made uniform.
There are sub-contractors who try to evade the law by claiming that they are not the direct contractors. There is a case in point in Montreal, that of the structural ironworkers on the Custom House, about which the minister knows. A rate of only
thirty-five cents an hour was specified in the contract, which was, of course, a mistake; it should have been more. But the sub-contractors state that they are not obliged to pay the fair wage because they are not the general contractors. I understand that this point is not well taken, because when a man signs a contract he is supposed to abide by the specification and the specification always has a fair wage clause attached to it. I ask the hon. minister to be sure that in the future no possible loophole is left in these schedules, so that the men will be put on an equal footing, and will know full well what they are going to receive.
Something has been done in .Montreal, especially on the Lachine canal where an officer sent by the Minister of Labour classified the men to their entire satisfaction. They had not been properly classified, and were not paid the regular wages. They were classified absolutely outside of the work they were performing. But the fair wages officer went there and made an arrangement satisfactory to the men in accordance with the fair-wage clause.
The Minister of Labour can never use too much prudence in so far as these contracts are concerned, because we are liable at any time to have to deal with an unscrupulous contractor or sub-contractor who will try to read between the lines of the contract, and create trouble for the men and for the department. I hope it can be obviated in future, and I am glad my hon. friend is taking steps to see that contracts shall be uniform, so that the men will be in a position to know exactly where they are.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend misunderstood me. I have not promised that in all future contracts there will be a clause providing that the contractor shall have to pay higher wages if the wages go up. What I promised was that I w'ould try to have uniformity in that respect in all the contracts. I might tell my hon. friend that we do not recognize the sub-contractor at all; we have nothing to do with the sub-contractor. However, if complaints are made that the schedules prepared by us are not being closely observed, we send out an officer who may see the sub-contractor and try to arrange with him to pay the schedule figure. But when it comes to exerting any pressure we do not deal with the sub-contractor at all. If we can make an amicable arrangement with him we do so; but if we

cannot then we fall back onthe contractor; he is the man that we hold responsible. I give very close attention to that. I know that men sometimes do not complain if they do not get the fair-wage prices, and every case that my attention has been called to I have had investigated. I have often had men paid as much as one hundred dollars for back pay where the contractor kept them below the minimum rate; and when he does not comply with the department's demands, we withhold the amount of money he should receive at the end of the month, or at the end of two months. In a great many cases we have secured back pay for men, and in every case we do our very best to see that the men are paid. I may tell my hon. friend that I have no sympathy whatever with contractors who, speaking generally, make very large profits out of work they do for the Government; and I think there is no excuse whatever for them to squeeze the men to the lowest cent they can get them for. I insist on their paying the highest wage that is provided for by the fair-wage officers.


Alphonse Verville: Does the minister not think that the Harbour Commission of Montreal should pay the current rate of wages paid by ordinary contractors in that city ? Why should the commission pay les3 than the contractors ? The commission argue that their work is not Government work and is under their control. I remember that in 1911 a difficulty concerning wages arose at the port of Montreal, and there was a strike on, in the settlement of which I had something to do; and the wages paid by important contractors in Montreal were the wages the investigating commission decided should he paid to the men. It was after the expiration of the agreement between the Harbour Commission and the carpenters that trouble arose last year. I do not see why the Harbour Commission, who can afford to pay as well as the best contractor in the city, should fall behind the law and not pay fair wages out of the public moneys they handle, in which the Government is directly or indirectly interested. It seems to me that the very highest wages should be paid by those who are in direct or indirect connection with the Government. The trouble that arose last year is past; we cannot settle that; but I suppose the present dispute can be settled. At the same time I would ask the minister to use every endeavour to force the Harbour Commission, if possible, at present and in future to pay the regular

rate of wages, which, at the present time is forty-five cents per hour in Montreal. The minister knows there is now some trouble in Montreal, because last Sunday he sent an officer there, whose instructions are to bring about an agreement of some kind, if possible. But the wages paid by our best contractors should also be paid by this board; and I reiterate my request that the minister apply the fair-wage clause. The men have been misled. I know that the minister, as a lawyer, has given the interpretation of the far-wage clause that I have given. He states now that it might be inserted in such contracts, but, of course, he cannot promise. It seems to me that there should be no difference in contracts whether they are large or small or in what part of the country they may be. If there is an increase of wages in one city during the performance of a contract, if the contract stipulates that such an increase in wages shall be given to the men employed on it, then that same rate should be paid in all cities; it should be uniform as far as possible. It would be unfair to take advantage of a small town or city. A fair-wage clause is a fair-wage clause, it does not matter where it is. I hope the minister will look this up and do the best he can. I do not wish the minister to think I am contending that the fair-wage clause should secure the same price for labour all over the country; I know enough about labour conditions to know that is impossible. But whenever an increase of wages is agreed upon, according to the finding of his officer, the increase should be made to apply all over the country.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am thankful to my hon. friend for mentioning the case of the Montreal Harbour Commissioners. I have insisted upon their paying the same rate of 'wages that reputable contractors are paying in the same town or city. They are, in effect, spending public moneys and I think the public can afford to pay the workingman and the mechanic as much as other reputable contractors are paying. But my hon. friend is aware that in order to take work like the Montreal harbour and the Qubec harbour and other places out of the direct control of the Government these boards were created by a statute and, in a sense, they are independent of the Government altogether. They were appointed for that very purpose, so that they can carry on these great works in each particular harbour without any interference on the part of politicians or members of the Govern-

ment or any one else. We cannot change that except by statute; but we can use our good offices with them to induce them to pay what we think they ought to pay. We do not see any reason why a harbour commission should not pay a carpenter the same rate of wages as is paid by a contractor across the street, and I have been urging them to do that. They have promised now to consider, with our fair-wage officers, any complaints that may be made and to do what they can to meet the conditions that they may have to contend with. At the present time, without any very satisfactory provisions, we are unable to do anything else. We might use drastic means by dismissing the commission or something of that sort, but we have not gone to such an extent as that and I do not suppose my hon. friend would insist upon any such action.


Alphonse Verville: I would call attention to the appointment of fair-wage officers. I do not know whether the minister has been well advised or not, but I am pretty sure that sometimes fair-wage officers are appointed who know very little about the labour movement. For instance, I believe that last year the minister appointed one in Winnipeg who did not know the leaders of the labour movement there. He was asked if he knew Mr. Riggs, now an aider-man in Winnipeg, who has been identified with the .labour movement there for a great many years, and he said that he had heard of him. The same thing occurred in reference to a number of other prominent labour men. The minister may say it is probably better that the fair-wage officer should not know the labour men; but the minister must agree that if a fair-wage officer wishes to get information from the men's standpoint the only place he can get it in any city is at the labour temple where the labour men gather. For instance Mr. Dubreuil, whom I know and who is one of the best fair-wage officers the minister has-and I know his knowledge and ability as a tradesman because I have worked with him-when he wishes to get information in Montreal he goes to the labour temple. He does the same thing in every other city in the eastern provinces. I hope that in the appointment of fair-wage officers no attention is paid to politics because, of course, the position is absolutely independent of politics. The minister will understand that if a fair-wage officer does not have the confidence, to some extent, of both labour men and em-328
ployers he will not be able to do justice to the department or to either side. The minister cannot expect to have from him as good service as from a man enjoying that confidence. If the minister in appointing fair-wage officers would consult the trades councils of the different cities, I am sure that he would get good men, We all know Mr. Dubreuil. He is a good man. Mr. McNiven is also a good man and a practical man of experience. The late Mr. O'Donohue also rendered great service to the department through his knowledge of the real conditions of labour not only in his own city but throughout the country. It seems to me that in a Labour Department, as far as possible the labour world should be consulted.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I am glad my hon.
friend has brought up the question of the appointment of a fair-wage officer at Winnipeg. When I assumed charge of the department we had only two fair-wage officers for all Canada. It was considered advisable to have one in the West and I sent Mr. McNiven, a competent man, to Vancouver where he has rendered valuable service. It was ascertained that even living at Vancouver the territory was too large for him to cover if he had to come down as far as Winnipeg, Fort William and Port Arthur. I determined to appoint another officer having headquarters at Winnipeg. I took extraordinary pains to get a competent young man and finally, after consulting several parties, no politicians whatever, I did not ask any politicians to recommend a man in Winnipeg, I made the appointment.
I consulted a man who had had great experience in handling men, and on his recommendation I appointed Mr. Holt. Before putting him to work in Winn:peg I had him come to Ottawa, and he has been training in the office here for three months. I have no doubt whatever that my hon. friend has heard from somebody in Winnipeg something to the effect of what he has just expressed here, but in making appointments of this kind I do not simply accept the recommendation of anybody. I insist upon the man coming here so that I ican have an opportunity of seeing him, and in this particular case the man was trained in the office here for three months so that he could become familiar with all branches of the Labour Department. He has been in Winnipeg now for six or seven months, and has done a great deal of work



for the department. I am perfectly satisfied that he is doing his work and doing it iwell.	[DOT]
Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, $25,000.


William F. Carroll: Has the minister had under consideration this session any amendments to the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I gave a great deal of *consideration to some proposed amendments to this Act, but we had not time to bring them down this session. It is my intention during recess to issue some kind of a circular-I will not send out the whole Bill -calling the attention of labour unions and employers of labour to suggested amendments in a general way, and asking what suggestions appear to them desirable.


William F. Carroll: Would the minister
kindly send me one of those circulars.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I shall be very glad to.


Mr. McKENZIE:: Has the minister given any consideration to the report of the Technical Education Commission concerning which there is a good deal of expectancy all over the country, particularly in centres of industry. In my province, for instance, our *miners and steel men are anxious to get better knowledge of their respective callings through the means of technical schools. (Some time in April last, there was a large gathering of tne mining engineers of Nova Scotia at Sydney, and I have no doubt the [DOT]minister has received a copy of the resolution they passed on that occasion urging that something be done in the direction of carrying out the recommendations made by the commission. I can readily understand [DOT]that the minister on account of his unfortunate illness has not been able to do as much work this session as he would have liked, but when the hot weather is over and he has fully recuperated I hope he will take this matter irto his earnest consideration. We look forward in all parts of Canada, particularly in the industrial centres, to something being done to implement that report.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: My hon. friend was not present when the hon. member for Pictou asked a similar question, but I do not object to repeating what I said then. My hon. friend will remember that it was proposed by the late Government to ap(-point a commission to inquire into industrial conditions and technical education in Europe and the United States. Realizing that education is one of the matters exclusively assigned to the various legisla-
	-
tures of Canada under the British North America Act, my predecessor communicated with the Prime Ministers of the various provinces asking them severally if they had any objections to the appointment of such a commission. I stated that the only object of the Government was to gather information on these matters and make a report for the benefit of the legislatures. All the Prime Ministers replied to that communication, and none of them made any objections, but the Prime Minister of Ontario and the Prime Minister of Quebec pointed out in their replies that under the British North America Act the legislatures had exclusive jurisdiction over education, and said that if it were distinctly understood that the whole scope of the commission was to gather information and submit it for the benefit of the legislatures they would have no objection, but that they wanted that distinctly understood. As my hon. friend is aware, the commission went beyond that in their recommendations. The report was not ready for distribution until last April, and more particularly the last volume which deals with conditions in Canada. As soon as the report was ready, we sent copies to the various Prime Ministers throughout Canada with the request for an expression of opinion as to these recommendations, and as to the position they would take with reference to them. We have heard from some of the Prime Ministers, but not all. This matter has been under the consideration of the Cabinet, and it was thought wise not to enter upon any definite scheme until we had heard from the various provincial Governments. Personally, I am very much in favour of doing anything in Teason for the extension of technical education and industrial training. I do not anticipate that the provincial Governments will object to getting some money for educational purposes. I think the Parliament of Canada will be willing to materially assist the local legislatures in providing for technical education and industrial training. I regard it as of very great importance to the people of Canada.


Alphonse Verville: I do not suppose that any provincial government would refuse a grant from the federal Parliament for the purposes of technical education and1 industrial training. I am very sorry that the Government has not seen fit to take away from the Militia Estimates the amount I suggested to be used for purposes of technical education in this country.

I am sure that the minister will agree with me in saying that his department is not getting enough. The Labour Department has been relegated to the very last place among the departments ever since it has been formed. This should not be so, because it is a department that has greater demands made upon it every year, and it would have been a splendid thing in the interests of labour and of the country generally if it had been permitted to occupy its proper place in relation to the other departments of Government. We have been allowing this department and its work to go back year after year, when there is a feeling prevalent throughout the country that a certain amount of money should be expended upon the objects for which the department was created. For instance, what are we doing for the organization and maintenance of technical schools for the instruction of men and boys? There are a number of schools of this class already in existence, and they afford opportunities to men and boys to take either night or day courses. In the city of Montreal we will have quite a number of boys coming out from these schools who have taken the full course, and I can assure the minister that he would be surprised at the high degree of technical knowledge and skill which have been acquired by boys of seventeen and eighteen years of age. I have known first-class mechanics, skilled in different kinds of work, to make the confession, upon coming into contact with some of these boys, that the 'boys knew more about their trades than they themselves did. I am sorry that the Government has not seen fit this year to grant an amount of money for the encouragement and assistance of these schools. There is another matter which I wish to bring to the attention of the minister. What does the minister intend to do about the regulation of employment bureaus in the large cities? I believe a demand has been made upon him that some form of regulation should be provided, and I believe also that he has expressed himself in favour of it. The suggestion is that the department should have control of these bureaus, and if it had it would save a great deal of trouble. Notwithstanding the fact that a request has been made for such regulation, I do not see any Bill upon the OrdeT Paper to put it in a legislative form. Such a Bill could be passed in one or two days, because I am sure that nobody would be against anything of the kind.
328i


William F. Carroll: While we have not
reached the item in regard to industrial training and technical education, I wish to say a few words, in accord with what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Murphy) has just said, along the lines of industrial and technical education as far as this Government is concerned. When the Estimates of the Department of Militia and Defence were up the other night I gave my opinion as to what this Government should do for technical education and the reason I did so was that the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence (Mr. Hughes) made the statement that more good was being derived from' military training than would be derived from technical education. That was a rather peculiar way of putting it and I took-the opportunity then to take strong ground against any such statement coming from the Minister of Militia. I am sure that the Minister of Labour does not agree with the Minister of Militia in that and I am also convinced that the people of the country do not agree with him. The commission that was appointed by the late Administration made a very voluminous report after having gathered valuable information not only in Canada and the United States but also in European countries. They made a number of recommendations. The minister may have been right in saying that the commissioners had gone outside of their commission in making these recommendations, but I would scarcely think that the commission would have been doing justice to themselves or to the people who appointed them if they had not done so.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I did not say, or I did not intend to say, that they went outside of their commission; I said that they went outside of the communication that was sent to the various provinces.


William F. Carroll: I understand that the
provinces made some reservations as to the powers that were given to the commission. But, however, they made a recommendation and that recommendation commends itself to industrial Canada and to Canada as a whole. There is nothing in my humble judgment that goes so far in keeping the population which we have within our confines, and also encouraging a good class of immigration from abroad, as an efficient system of technical education. While I agree with the minister that education is within the purview of the local legislatures I want to point out that we have, in item 286, provided for industrial training and technical education, thus showing that

there is really no very great restriction after all upon the Dominion Government in dealing with this matter. The minister is certainly right in saying that the provincial governments from the Atlantic to the Pacific would be very glad to receive a sum of money, such as was recommended by the commission, to be used by the various provinces for technical education. This Parliament has voted, on the recommendation of the Minister of Agriculture, a very large sum of money for the teaching of agriculture in the schools of the various provinces. The scheme is a good one and the Minister of Agriculture has told the House that it is meeting with success.
The same thing can be done in reference to the organization of technical education. I have received from Mr. Hanrahan, the secretary of the Mining Society in Sydney, the same resolution that was sent to my hon. friend from North Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) praying the Government to take into consideration, at the very earliest moment, the matter of distributing such a sum of money as was recommended by the commission for technical education in the various provinces. I need not again go particularly into the question of all that has been accomplished by technical education in the industrial centres of Canada. I pointed out the other night that in the industrial centres of Nova Scotia, especially in regard to the steel and coal companies, every man holding a permanent position, from the general manager down, had got his promotion through the education which he received in the technical and night schools which were provided in that part of the country by the Nova Scotia Government. The Nova Scotia Government, or any other local government, has a limit to the amount of money that it can spend on technical education, and in a country with a revenue such as Canada has, or in a country that is spending between $14,000,000 and $15,000,000 on military enterprise and development annually, we ought to be able to spend $3,000,000 or $4,000,000 annually in the interest of technical education.
I am very greatly interested in this matter because I represent a constituency where technical education has made more progress, and its results have been more apparent probably, than any other constituency in Canada. I am peculiarly interested, however, in the fact that the people are clamouring for a better system of technical education in that part of the country than that which has hitherto existed. The City Council of Sydney has voted a free site

for a technical school to co-operate, if possible, with the technical school at Halifax. The people of Sydney have also, through their city council, undertaken to contribute a sum towards the upkeep and maintenance of the school. My hon. friend the Minister of Labour probably remembers that he was at the meeting for the organization of the committee that had this work under control, and we were all glad to see him there. He heard some of the discussion and took part in it himself. While he would not probably have been justified in making any definite promise, he told those present that he would bring the matter to the attention of the Government, and I presume he has done so.
If I had the time I would go into the question of technical education to a greater extent, but I will only say that, when we see places in Canada willing to contribute to the upkeep of technical schools, when we *see private citizens going down into their pockets and donating money for technical schools, when we see people who have been trained in these technical schools devoting their extra time and leisure to teaching and tutorship in the night schools, I think it is certainly incumbent upon this Government, with its vast resources and revenue, to do something for technical education. I appeal to the Minister of Labour to use his good influence with the Government to bring this matter to a happy conclusion. I appeal to the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Borden), who is a Nova Scotian, and who understands and realizes perhaps better than any other gentleman on the other side of the House what technical education has done for his native province, and I appeal to his Government to give this matter of technical education, and the report and recommendations of the commission, their very best consideration during this summer and not to stop at consideration but to bring forward something tangible at the next session of Parliament and try to help technical education and show the country and the world that we are not interested alone in military manoeuvres, in building armouries and in spending millions upon millions in the effort to develop a military spirit in this country, but that we are also interested in developing a citizenship that will be second to none and which can only be developed in its highest form by a wise and liberal policy in regard to technical education.
At one o'clock, the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.

Indians-Nova Scotia-to provide a further amount for miscellaneous, $1,650.


George William Kyte: Has the hon. minister made any provision in the Estimates for the erection of a house on St. Ann's island in the Salmon River reserve? I understand that an application was made some time ago for the erection of a 'building to replace the one that was burned two years ago.


Mr. ROCHE:: There is nothing in the
Supplementaries to provide for that.


George William Kyte: Has the minister in mind
an application for an appropriation for that purpose made to him during the last year? I understand that instructions were issued to the inspector of Indian agencies some time ago for the erection of a building, and I would like to get the particulars from the minister.


William Roche: Is this for the Indian
church?


George William Kyte: Yes, for a residence for the parish priest on St. Ann's island.


Mr.   ROOKE@: That is in the Main Estimates-on Chapel island.


George William Kyte: Yes.
Indians-Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest territories-to provide a further amount for general expenses and roads, $5,000.


Frank Oliver: Are these roads wholly on the reserves or are they for the convenience of the Indians in reaching points outside the reserves. In what particular locality is the expenditure being made?


William Roche: This is for general expenses; there is no separate item for roads.


Frank Oliver: Is there in the Main Estimates an item for roads? I do not wish to criticise the item, but il want to get the information.


William Roche: No.
Indians-British Columbia-to provide for the expenses of the British Columbia Land Commission, further amount required to pay Dr. J. A. J. McKenna for his services during the fiscal year 1914-15 as one of the commissioners, $1,400.


Frank Oliver: Cam the minister say briefly how far negotiations have been completed as between this Government and the British Columbia Government in regard to the Indian reserves?


William Roche: The British Columbia
Commission were at work during the summer and fall of last year; but they took a protracted holiday during the winter season, and the work was somewhat delayed owing to the fact that the chairman of the commission had resigned. This necessitated the appointment of another chairman; and Mr. White, one of the old commissioners was appointed to that position, another gentleman, Mr. Carmichael, being appointed to fill the vacancy caused by the promotion of Mr. White. The commission have been at work during the past six weeks, and are visiting each reserve and taking evidence. They have covered a goodly portion of the province, iand intend in the immediate future to visit the reserves in the more remote part3 of the province. I do not expect they will have their work completed until well on in the fall. They have not sent in any report as yet, except some emergency items in connection with surrenders and rights of way.


Frank Oliver: Will final action be taken on their report without reference to legislation by Parliament?


William Roche: I do not think there will be any final action taken at all. The report will, no doubt, be received prior to the next meeting of Parliament, and, of course, it will require joint action on the part of the province and of-the Dominion. I do not expect that anything definite and final will be passed until Parliament has a chance to discuss the matter.


Frank Oliver: What I want to get at is: Is the Government acting under legislative authority already given by Parliament that would allow the matter to be closed up without further reference to Parliament, or has a commission been appointed merely to get information upon which parliamentary action will subsequently be based?


William Roche: I think it was the intention to have Parliament finally pass upon it; I do not think there is any legislation by which we can wind up the matter without submitting it to Parliament.


Frank Oliver: I want to get whatever
information I can in regard to the attitude of the department towards the Kitsilano reserve, and I would like to have the minister's explanation as to how and why the Government of British Columbia was permitted to deal with these Indians with a view to acquiring property rights in the reserve.


William Roche: I was not so personally
conversant with this, owing to my absence last session when this question came up, but I understand that the British Columbia Government claim a reversionary right in the property. They negotiated with these Indians without any sanction, so far as I am aware, from this Government, and made certain financial arrangements. All the papers in this matter are before the Royal Commission. It has not been taken up as yet by the commission, I presume, possibly in the hope that some amicable ar. rangement may be arrived at between the two governments. At any rate the deparment does not recognize the action of the British Columbia Government with reference to this reserve, and of course, will not give any title by reason of their negotiations with the Indians. The Indian Department will give no recognition whatever to the action of the British Columbia Government, which cannot receive a title to these lands under their present arrangement without the consent of the department, and, of course, it is not the intention of the department to have the lands disposed of in the manner in which they have been disposed of. As I said before, this is one of the matters, in connection with other reservations, referred to the commission, who will report upon it.


Frank Oliver: The Indian Department has certain officials in charge of the business of administering Indian affairs in British Columbia, and one of their principal duties is to protect the interests of the Indians. As a matter of fact, the interests of the Indians have not been protected in this case, to say nothing about their removal from the reservation or the money transactions that were gone into. Their buildings on the reserve, which were their private property, were destroyed, I understand, not secretly by any means, but destroyed by order and authority of the British Columbia Government, as exercising proprietory rights on this property. Now, that cannot have occurred without the cognizance of the officials of the department. If it occurred without the cognizance of the officials then these officers should have ceased their connection with the department long ago. If it occurred either with or without their cognizance, they should have ceased their connection long ago, unless this Government, which employs these officers, is prepared to accept its responsibility for the action that the British Columbia Government was allowed to take.
]Mr. Oliver. [
.1 will ask if these men are still in the Government's employ.


William Roche: I understand that our officials were net called into requisition at all to get the consent of the Indians. It was done by the officials of the British Columbia Government. I do not think that our officers are at all responsible for whatever action has been taken. The officials may have been conversant with what has been going on; they may have been awaTe that certain arrangements were being made by the British Columbia Government, but under no instructions whatever from headquarters, and it was not with the consent, or under the direction or jurisdiction of our Indian agents there, that any surrender of the property of the Indians was obtained.


Frank Oliver: I wish to emphasize this point:	That the Government, having
officials on the ground whose duty it was to protect the rights of the Indians, if those rights were not protected it was the fault of the officials, and if the officials have not been punished for that fault, then this Government must accept full responsibility foT the action that was taken.
Immigration-Amount required for seed grain to settlers on unpatented lands in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, $35,000.


Frank Oliver: Where is it proposed to
supply this seed grain?


William Roche: In what is known as the McBride district, the Maerorie district, and the Willow Bunch district.


Mr. BOULAY:: I would like to know
what this vote means.
ivrr. ROCHE:	Where people have been
burnt out or are left destitute, and apply for relief in these districts, where they have been deprived of their stock through some misfortune, it has been the custom for some years to have an item in the Estimates for supplying seed grain to homesteaders who have not yet received patents for their land, and the loan is made a first lien against their land, and title to the land is not given until the Government is repaid the amounts that have been advanced.


Mr. WILLIAM CHISHOLM:: I wish to bring up a matter that is not exactly relevant to this item. I would like to ask what action the Government is taking upon the petition of the Board of Trade of Anti-gonish with respect to the establishment of an immigration agency?


William Roche: That is a petition which, I think, has only reached the department within the last few days, and I understand that a deputation is coming to interview the Government about it. No action has been taken as yet, as the matter has not been fully gone into.


William Chisholm: I think that the proposed deputation has been called off. I have sufficient confidence in the minister to believe that he will do justice in this matter without having it impressed upon him any further by a deputation. What would be the policy of the Government in that regard? It is claimed that, inasmuch as farms are being depopulated in the eastern part of the country, and as the Government has done a great deal for the West in the matter of encouraging immigration in that section, it is time now that something should be done for the East, and that there should be an immigration agency for the eastern part of the country. The minister might tell me what the policy of his department is in that regard.


William Roche: The department has devoted more attention to immigration matters in the eastern provinces during the last year or two than has been done in the past. In order to carry out our policy we have appointed officers to act in conjunction with the provincial officers in the Maritime provinces. We have an officer in Nova Scotia, appointed a year or so ago, who is acting for the Dominion Government in placing immigrants going to that province upon the land. I believe also that the provincial Government have officials of their own engaged in similar work; I know they have one in the neighbouring province of New Brunswick. In addition to having these gentlemen in our employ, we are quite willing to adopt the same policy in regard to the Maritime provinces that we have with regard to the provinces of Ontario and Quebec; that is, we have in certain counties, or a group of counties, officers who are paid a commission on every adult farmer or labourer whom they place with farmers upon the land. We are quite willing to extend that system if it is considered desirable by the people of the Maritime provinces.


William Chisholm: What we are asking for down there is a sum of 810,000, to open an immigration bureau or agency. We estimated that it would cost that.


William Roche: We have not an item in the Estimates to bear the expense of opening up any immigration agency.


William Chisholm: That has not been your policy in the past?


William Roche: No, it has not.


William Chisholm: So far as encouraging immigration in the eastern part of the country is concerned, I do not think that this Government can claim any greater credit than its predecessor. The only attempt at encouraging immigration there was the appointment of some agents to go to the old country. I think there were seven or eight from Nova Scotia who were sent over last year at an expense of something between $700 to $900. I had the opportunity of reading over the reports, and in most cases there is no doubt but that these men were sent for the purpose of giving them a trip; they were faithful friends and had to be given a little recreation, and they got three months' vacation at the country's expense. I read one of the reports, and the only information given is that the man visited the Highlands and found the people very hospitable. That is information that could have been found out at home. This man also stated that he had met lots of people with whom he had conversed in the vernacular, and with whom he had spoken in the language of the Garden of Eden. As a matter of fact, most of the agents were men who could not tell the boundaries of the Dominion of Canada, or who is Governor General; or how Canada is governed. And yet they were sent over, spent time and money over there, came home and got somebody to write the report for them.


Frank Oliver: On the general question of immigration, while I do not wish to delay the House, I want to say that I do not think, so far as we have heard yet, the Government appreciates the situation that is abroad in the country to-day in regard to employment, and in regard to the prospect of employment during the coming winter. It goes without saying that with the practical completion of two enormous railway enterprises there must result a tremendous readjustment of labour conditions. This is the fact as we have it, coupled with the cessation of that expansion and prosperity that we have had in past years. The situation at the present time is unfortunate, if not alarming, and we are only at the beginning of the season. I fear to contemplate what the condition is likely to

be at the coming on of winter unless there is a business revival that is not at the moment in prospect. While this is the condition it seems to me that it would be the part of wisdom for the Government to recognize that condition and enforce an effective embargo (upon labour immigration. My hon. friend has said that he is enforcing now the regulations that prevailed in 1907 under similar conditions, when the emigrating populations of other countries were warned that Canada only needed farm labourers and domestic servants. I am afraid that we are beyond the point when a mere announcement of that kind will be sufficient, and that to-day our position is such that we should only admit people who have money enough to go on the land. I do not see any necessity of declaring a permanent exclusion policy, but under the exceptional conditions now prevailing, and with the prospects that are before us, I am counselling the Government in all good faith and without any desire to criticise unduly, that, in my judgment, it would be the part of wisdom at the present time to put an embargo on the coming to Canada of any people who are not in a position to support themselves at any rate for a year, or who are not coming to conditions that would ensure their support for a year. I would strongly urge the Government to recognize the conditions as they are and the prospects that are before us and to deal with them in a drastic manner. I do not think that it is good policy to let things drift. Considering the situation as it was last fall and this spring, and the prospect of the situation next fall, this is the time for drastic and energetic action on the part of the Government.


William Roche: I realize the seriousness of khe .situation, as pointed out by my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver), although 'I do not take as gloomy an outlook as he does. I have done the utmost in my power to impress upon steamship agents and Government officials to discourage emigrants from coming to Canada unless they are coming to assured employment, or unless they are domestic servants or agricultural labourers. The very best evidence that our efforts in that respect are meeting with, success is, that immigration to Canada has fallen off more than fifty per cent this year. The most of those now coming to Canada are coming with the intention of going on the land. I do not think it would give our country a very enviable reputation to absolutely exclude all labourers from all

parts of Canada at present. We are enforcing more strictly this year than ever before the provision in regard to the money qualification which was fixed by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) himself when Minister of the Interior. Our immigration agents have been made acquainted with the condition of affairs in this country; they have received their instructions, and I think they are carrying them out to the letter. I join with the hon. gentleman in hoping that the financial situation may so improve with the good crop we expect this year, that there will not in future be any complaint about unemployment. Most of our immigrants, who come to engage in other than agricultural and domestic employment, come on the invitation of friends who supply them with the money, or else they have money of their own.


Frank Oliver: It was stated in the newspapers that in the week of June 5, 3,500 immigrants had arrived at Quebec. 1 would be glad if all those would go on the land or are coming to assured employment, but I very much doubt it. We hope there Will be a good crop, and that conditions will be better in the fall, tot now is the time to make provision for unfavourable conditions. With the cessation of great railway works, there are necessarily .a large number of men thrown out of employment who must find work somewhere else.
Administration of Chinese immigration, $20,000.


Frank Oliver: In connection with this
appropriation, will the minister give us the latest bulletins from our friends at Vancouver?


William Roche: The last information we
had was that on second thought the Hindus had called off their hunger strike and were now partaking of their fair share of the good things of this world. For some days the man who chartered the vessel prevented the board of inquiry from prosecuting their work. Our immigration officials were engaged separating those who had previous residence in Canada from those who had come for the first time, when Gundit Singh insisted that they should be taken out indiscriminately, and he prevented the men from conforming to the examination. In this respect they have also changed their minds and yesterday morning the board of inquiry continued. Within the next couple of days I expect more cheerful news to be announced. I am under the

impression that the ship will take its departure from Canada.


Rodolphe Lemieux: This question of Hindu immigration has reached an acute stage in Canada. I read two letters which appeared in this morning's Montreal Gazette, from one of the most distinguished lawyers in Montreal Mr. Archibald McGoun, K.C., which show that there are very strong views held by a certain class of the community against the treatment meted out to these Hindus. As the right hon. leader of the Opposition recently said, this is a matter which would be better settled by diplomacy than by drastic legislation here. Has the Prime Minister been in communication with the Imperial authorities, so as to bring this matter before a future Imperial conference?


Robert Laird Borden: We have had no information yet with regard to any approaching Imperial conference and therefore the subject which the hon. gentleman alludes to has not been under consideration. When an Imperial conference is called, the various governments will be requested to put forward subjects for discussion and these will constitute the agenda. It would be impossible to say at this moment whether or not this subject would be discussed but one would naturally suppose that in the ordinary course of events it would come up for consideration.


Frank Oliver: When we were discussing the Hindu situation a few days ago, I stated that the newspapers had reported that the Ghinese were being admitted, while the Hindus were being held up, notwithstanding the exclusion order. The minister then said that this was not the case. I presume the minister has made further inquiry, and I would be glad if he would make another statement as to whether or not that is actually the fact.


William Roche: A large proportion of these Chinese who came in the vessel referred to by the newspapers was in bond going to the West Indies; another proportion was returning to Canada, having previous domicile here. There were quite a few of them who were coming to Canada for the first time, but by reason of the fact that the required thirty days' notice had to be given before enforcing the provisions of the Order in Council against the Chinese and. the original Order in Council not having been enforced against them, these were allowed in. Since that vessel's arrival, all
Chinese of the labouring class will have the Order in Council enforced against them, the same as it is against the Hindus.


Frank Oliver: At some risk I wish to
give expression to my views in regard to the immigration of Chinese. I think the figures will bear me out that in the estimation of every well-wisher of Canada there are more Chinese coming to Canada at the present time and under present conditions than is good for Canada. The mere fact that we levy a toll upon those who come does not in any degree better the conditions resulting from their coming. They are here, and they are coming in increasing numbers notwithstanding the payment of this head tax, and my individual opinion is that a condition has arrived that calls for some new arrangement that will adequately prevent the coming of Chinese to Canada in such numbers as at present. I consider that the numbers in which they are coming now constitute a menace to the well-being of the country. It is of such large dimensions as to tend to actually shift the basis of civilization in our most western province. I make this announcement with the view of urging the Government to adopt some policy that shall be effective in measurably excluding that immigration. When the $500 head tax was first put on it was effective for a short time, and when it ceased to be effective it was hoped that there was only a temporary abnormal rush of immigration. But time has demonstrated that the Chinese have adjusted themselves to the conditions of the head tax and that while the Government of British Columbia and of Canada are levying much revenue on the Chinese, the standard of Canadian civilization is being seriously affected by the large and increasing numbers of Chinese who are coming into Canada.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Now that the Estimates of the Minister of the Interior are finished, might I remind him before he leaves for the West that I would like him to settle the question of the coal royalties?


William Roche: I have that in mind.
Ste. Adelaide de Pabos

Repairing breakwater and improving approach, $2,500.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the minister be
kind enough to explain what it is proposed! to do at Ste. Adelaide de Pabos? The reason I call his attention to the matter ia that a large lumber firm has bought exten-

sive limits in the vicinity of Ste. Adelaide dte Pabos and has gone so far as to build, a branch line of railway running several miles into the interior. Since the establishment of that firm I am informed that no less than 600 or 700 tenement houses have been built by the company and that there is in fact a very large development. It is very comforting to know that this dewe'i'-opment is due largely to the construction, of the Atlantic, Quebec and Western railway, as well as to the industry of this new firm. I received a letter some months ago from the manager of the company and, as they are utilizing the harbour for the loading and unloading of lumber and other materials, and as they are contributing to the development of the country, I have been asked to see if the Government could not help them. Some years ago I secured the construction of a block or pier at that harbour. I suppose this is for the purpose of extending the pier. I hope my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works will realize that this is an important industry and that it has largely revolutionized that section of GaspA


Herménégilde Boulay: In the Supplementary
Estimates there is an item of $25,000 for Chandler wharf.
St. Germain de Kamouraska-Wharf, $10,000.


Mr. TOBIN:: I would like to ask the^
minister if he has signed' the plans for the damming of the river St. Maurice at Place Laloute. I understand that the Quebec Streams Commission have been waiting to proceed with these works and that the plan has been before the minister for some time. I would like to know if it hag been sigped and approved.	; >
' -y:
4 p.m. Mr. ROGERS: We have signed and approved a plan recommended by the local Government for works that are proceeding on the St. Maurice river.


Edmund William Tobin: An application was made under the Quebec Streams Commission.


Robert Rogers: That has gone through.
Ville Marie-Wharf, $5,000.	-


William F. Carroll: I would like to ask the minister if Antoine Gobeil, who was deputy Minister of Public Works at one time, is receiving from this Government any remuneration outside of his superannuation, and, if so, what service he is rendering?


Robert Rogers: I understand that Mr. Gobeil is drawing a salary for doing certain work, but it is temporary.


William F. Carroll: What is the nature of the work?


Robert Rogers: He was making special reports in connection with the works at Quebec. That is the most recent appointment that he has had.


Edmund William Tobin: I would like to get some information from the minister respecting the erection of a public building at Weedon, in the county of Wolfe. I had a question on the Order Paper some time ago, as follows:
1.	Does the Government intend to proceed with the construction of the public building at Weedon, county of Wolfe, this year?
2.	If so, have tenders been called for?
3.	If not, when does the Government intend to call for tenders for the said building?
Mr. Rogers:	As there is no appropriation
available, it is not customary to give such information until the Estimates are laid before Parliament.
In the session of 1910-11 there was a certain amount put in the Estimates and voted for a public building at Weedon. Plans were prepared, and in 1912-13 $15,000 was voted by this House for a public building at that place. Tenders were called for the building, but I believe that the department found that they were rather high. The tenders were somewhere between $9,000 and $10,000. I moved for a return some time ago, and in that return I find certain correspondence which I would like to read to this House. I was somewhat surprised to find on reading the correspondence that there was so much interest taken in the matter by the senator from that division and also by a minister without portfolio. The Senator of that division, Mr. R. H. Pope, wrote the following letter in February, 1912, to the Hon. F. D. Monk, who was then Minister of Public Works:
Hon. P. D. Monk, M.P.,
Minister of Public Works,
Ottawa.
My dear Sir:
I notice in the Estimates of 1913 an item of $15,000 for a post office at Weedon Station. In the first place a building costing that much at a place like Weedon Station would only be a monument of extravagance. The ordinary post office at any of these small towns should not cost more than five thousand to seven, thousand dollars. Such a building would be plenty good enough and in keeping with the surroundings.
In the interest of our friends I would ask to build two buildings, one at Weedon Station and one at D'Israeli. Both could be built for the amount contained in the Estimates of

this year and will do us some good as well as
be to the credit of your department.
I will he pleased to call on you at any time you fix for a few minutes to discuss this affair.
Tours very truly,
(Sgd) R. H. Pope.
Mr. Chairman, you will note that in his letter Mr. Pope said: ' This will do us some good.' I do not know whether he means that from a business point of view, in the interest of the people of Weedon, or from a political point of view. I leave hon. members to draw their own conclusions as regards that. Mr. Monk answered Senator Pope on February 20, 1912, as follows: Dear Senator Pope,
I have your letter concerning the post office at Weedon Station. I think there is a contract in this case. I will take the matter up with my officers.
Tours very sincerely,
(Sgd) P. D. Monk.
There was some more correspondence with the Postmaster General; and then Mr. J. H. Crepeau, Conservative candidate in the county of Richmond and Wolfe in 1900, wrote the following letter to the Postmaster General under date of January 30, 1912:
St. Camille.
The Hon. L. P. Pelletier,
Postmaster General.
Dear Sir,-I see in the estimates that an amount of $15,000 has been voted for a post office at Weedon. It seems to me that with this amount we could build a post office at Weedon and one at DTsraeli.
When the interests of the county of Wolfe are at stake, I think John Champoux is the man who could give you the best information on the matter. Please don't start work at Weedon before we have had an interview with you. I offer these suggestions, because they are in the interest of the cause which we serve.
Tours truly,
(Sgd) J. H. CrSpeau.
Mr. Crepeau, the Conservative candidate, who was also defeated in 1900, suggested to the Postmaster General that this building should not be erected until the Postmaster General had had an interview with his friends in the county, and that no buildings should be erected in the county of Wolfe without the approval of Mr. Champoux, who was the Conservative candidate in the county in 1908. I do not see why these gentlemen should be unwilling to see public buildings erected in the county of Wolfe, especially in such a place as Weedon. I have no objection to the erection of a public building at D'Israeli. I understand that the department is also going to put up a public building in Wotton. I think I got an answer a
few days ago from the minister in regard to that, and I will be much pleased to see these buildings erected as soon as passible, and can assure the Government that they w'll be appreciated by my electors.
The inspector, Mr. Green, on February 13, 1912, sent a report to the Postmaster General, in which he says:
Sir: With reference to the herewith returned communication from Mr. J. H. Crfpeau, of St. Camille, Wolfe county, stating that he has observed that there is a vote of $15,000 in the Estimates for a public building at Weedon in that electoral district and suggesting that this amount be divided in order to provide for a public building at DTsraeli as well, and expressing the opinion that suitable buildings could be erected for $7,000 each, I beg to say that as regards Weedon Station, my report No. 969 of 2nd February, 1911, file 36831, deals with the question at issue, and I therefore herein inclose copy in duplicate of that report.
As regards DTsraeli one of the most important centres in that section, similarly to Weedon Station, on the line of the Quebec Central railway, in the electoral district of Richmond-Wolfe, the population is 480 families, aggregating 2,600 souls, divided, 326 families in the village proper, and 154 families in the contiguous territory located in the parish boundaries.
The revenue DTsraeli surpasses the Weedon's as it amounts to $1,436.20. The postmaster's salary and allowances amount to $838.22 as
per special items:
Salary	$624	50
Forward allowance	 3800
Rent	 75	00
Commission on postal note and
money	order business	 100	72

It seems to me, that including the cost of site, $7,500 each for public buildings, would be somewhat inadequate and that buildings of that description would be of relatively insignificant dimensions and appearance, but that can be more easily determined by architects conversant with the style of edifice contemplated.
I concur in Mr. CrOpeau's view that DTsraeli has equal, if not more claim to a public building for post office purposes to Weedon Station.
Tours truly,
(Sgd) S. Tanner Green, Post office inspector.
Later on Mr. Monk wrote a letter to his colleague, the Postmaster General. Then we come to a letter from Mr. Perley, minister without portfolio, regarding the same building at Weedon. These gentlemen have taken a great deal of interest in endeavouring to prevent Weedon from having a public building; or if it is to have one, in their opinion, it should be so small that the people of Weedon could not accept it. Mr. Perley's letter to the Minister of Pub-

lie Works under date of March 2, 1912, is as follows:
Hon. F. D. Monk, M.P.,
Minister of Public Works,
Ottawa.
My dear Mr. Monk:
There is an item of $15,000 in the Estimates to provide a public building at Weedon village in the constituency of Richmond and Wolfe. I am informed by some of our friends in that county that Weedon is not a large enough place to warrant putting up such an expensive building. They say that this appropriation ought to be enough to build a post office at Weedon and is really also in the same riding. I have explained to them that the Government is not obliged to carry out all the works that are mentioned in the Estimates and I would suggest your having this one carefully investigated before the department decides whether to put up this building or not. I think Senator Pope understands the situation and I have no doubt that our defeated candidate, Dr. John Hayes, would be able to give you fuller information, if you require it.
Tours very truly,
(Sgd) Geo. H. Perley.
I am somewhat surprised to see these hon. gentlemen take such an adverse interest to a public building at Weedon station. The money was voted in 1910-11; and just as the old Government went out of power, there was a site secured and land bought for a public builamg at that place.
In September, 1911, some of our Conservative friends from the county of Wolfe decided that the site which the old Government had bought was not a proper site, although it had been approved toy the majority of the people of Weedon and by the council. They secured another site, and during the local elections of May, 1912, sent out agents to that part of the county promising the people that tenders for a public building would be called at once and that work would go right on. As the people of the county of Wolfe did not vote as these gentlemen expected, nothing has since been done. I would ask the minister if he thinks it is fair or right, after securing a site and having plans made and tenders called for, that the Government should not proceed with this building? The people of Weedon expect a suitable public building, not one that will cost $4,000 or $5,000 but one that will cost $15,000 or even more. It is really composed of three different municipalities and there must be a population of 2,500 or 3,000 in those municipalities, and the population is increasing. Within a few miles of this place they have discovered the largest copper mine in the province of Quebec. The other day I put a question on the Order
[Mr. Tobin. 1
Paper and the minister answered that there was no money in the appropriations for this year. I was surprised to get the answer. The minister said it was not customary to give such information until the Estimates were laid before Parliament. I expected the information in the Supplementary Estimates, but it was not there. I would now ask the minister what he intends to do with segard to this case.


Robert Rogers: In view of the fact that Weedon appears to have had many friends and much support in the matter of procuring a public building, and as I apparently am more to blame than any other person in this matter, I shall endeavour, if I possibly can, when the Estimates come down again, to correct the apparent mistake 1 have made.


Edmund William Tobin: In reference to the post
office and public building at Disraeli I asked the following questions some days ago:
Mr. Tobin:
1.	Is it the intention of the Government to proceed with the construction of the public building at Disraeli this year?
2.	If so, has the land been purchased to be used as a site for the said building, from whom and at what price?
3.	Have tenders been called for the construction?
4.	If not, when does the Government, intend to call for the said tenders?
Mr. Rogers :
1	and 4. The matter is under consideration.
2	and 3. No.
Some time ago the minister had options on different properties at D'Israeli. Has he bought a site for the public building? I see there is some money voted this year. I have practically the same letters in reference to this case as I have already read in reference to the other case, from Senator Pope, from Mr. Crepeau, from the Hon. Mr. Perley, minister without portfolio, and from Dr. Hayes, the defeated candidate in that constituency in the interest of the Conservative party. Dr. Hayes' letter is as follows: Richmond, March 22, 1912.
F. D. Monk, Esq.,
Minister of Public Works,
Ottawa.
Hon. Sir,-Replying to yours of 14th November and March 11, 1912, regarding purchase of land from Mr. Beaudry at Weedon Station, I may say that a more central and cheaper lot could be found for the purpose in view. If I am correctly informed I understand that a sum of $15,000 has been put in Estimates for the public building at Weedon Station. Before that amount is spent there, I believe the advisability of the move should be given more consideration. It seems to me $15,000 is a large amount for a public building in a small town; the public service might be better served if this amount was used to build two or three offices

in different towns in Wolfe and more in proportion to their requirements.
I remain, Sir,
Yours truly,
(Sgd) John Hayes.
In 1912, $5,000 was put in the Estimates. Land was bought for a public building at Weedon and later on at D'Israeli they took options. I understood that they took an option on the building of Champoux Bros. Is it the minister's intention to erect a new building or to repair this building of Champoux Bros., to use the same as a public building?


Robert Rogers: We have an item in the Estimates for a public building at D'Israeli. It is true that there has been some delay by reason of the fact that a certain number of people desired to purchase an old building while others wished the construction of a new building for that place. The matter has not yet been decided, but I have no hesitation in saying that my own view, from the information I have had and from the consideration which I have been able to give to it, is that we should erect a new building at D'Israeli when we reach a conclusion to go ahead with the work.


Edmund William Tobin: But you have not bought
the land yet?


Robert Rogers: No, not yet.


Edmund William Tobin: I also asked the following questions:
Mr. Tobin:
1.	H,as the Government been requested to erect a public building at Wotton, county of Wolfe?
2.	If so, from whom have such requests been received?
3.	Have such requests been considered and when will action be taken in connection therewith?
Mr. Rogers:
1.	Yes.
2.	Dr. John Hayes of Richmond and Dr. A. Thibault of Wotton, Quebec.
3.	The request is now receiving consideration.
Is it the intention of the Government to purchase the necessary land as a site for a public building in Wotton?


Robert Rogers: We have had an application but I have not been able to give it consideration up to the present time. I hope to do so after the close of the session.


William F. Carroll: I wish to call attention to a case which has come under my observation in connection with a former employee of the Public Works Department, Mr. B. J. Franklin. I understand that Mr. Franklin
was a messenger in the House of Commons during last session and that sometime after the session was over he was placed in the Department of Public Works as a clerk with technical knowledge of plans and specifications, etc, and that therefore it was not necessary, he having been recommended, to have him pass a civil service examination. I have here a memorandum to the chief architect by Mr. R. C. Wright, the assistant architect, recommending Mr. Franklin, and a memorandum to the deputy minister by the chief architect endorsing that recommendation. These memorandums are as follows:
July 15, 1913.
Memorandum to the Chief Architect.
I have much pleasure in recommending Mr. B. J. Franklin to a clerical position in this branch. We have been cataloging all the plans for the Architectural Department, and have found his assistance very valuable.
As the number of new buildings increases, the task of retaining control in making out lists for blue prints, receiving and numbering of the drawings, forwarding specifications for printing and to contractors, and to many other details of filing, require more than one person and Mr. Franklin, with his knowledge of plans will make a first-class addition.
R. C. Wright,
Asst. Chief Architect.
Ottawa, July 15, 1913.
Memorandum to the Deputy Minister.
Attached is a memo, from Mr. Wright, my assistant, recommending the appointment of Mr. B. J. Franklin to a clerical position in this branch. I concur with Mr. Wright's recommendation.
D. Ewart, Chief Architect.
On the strength of those letters, I understand, Mr. Franklin was given a clerkship in the department at $75 a month or $800 a year. After he had been there, and paid at this rate, for some time, some 'question arose between the Department and the Civil Service Commission as to Mr. Franklin passing an examination. I understand that the Civil Service Commission gave him a certificate as a messenger but that he had never asked for such a certificate and was not hired as a messenger nor was he doing messenger's work. I have a letter from the Deputy Minister of Public Works to the Secretary of the Civil Service Commission:
9th October, 1913.
Sir,-Will you kindly let me have a reply to my letter of July 17 last, enclosing this department's file No. 6174, with reference to the temporary employment of Mr. B. J. Franklin as a

clerk in subdivision ' B ' of the second division, at $800 per annum.
I am, Sir,
Tour obedient servant,
(Signed) J. B. H., Deputy Minister.
The Secretary,
Civil Service Commission,
Ottawa.
If this man was hired on the ground that he had technical knowledge, and so complied with the Act, it would seem most unfair for the department to have afterwards paid him off as messenger. I understand that he received for his services $250, and is claiming a balance of $200, a total of $450.


Robert Rogers: I have no knowledge of
the case, but I am informed that when Mr. Franklin was taken on it was in the hope that he would serve as a technical officer in the architects' branch. When he went up for examination before the Civil Service Commission they would not pass him for any position other than that of a messenger, and as we had no position for a messenger we could not retain him. That accounts for his position.


William F. Carroll: Are persons not taken
into the Civil Service without certificates from the commission on the ground that they have technical knowledge of the work which they are required to do?


Robert Rogers: The Civil Service Commission makes an examination and certifies that the candidate is qualified.


William F. Carroll: Then I think the fault must lie with the Civil Service Commission because this man had the letters which I have read showing that he had the technical qualifications necessary.


Robert Rogers: I am not acquainted with all the facts, but I shall have the case looked up.


William F. Carroll: If there is any merit in the case the minister might pay the balance this man is asking.


Mr. LOGGIE:: An amount has been in
the Estimates for some two years for the construction of an addition to the public building in Chatham, N.B. It had been expected by the residents of the town that this building would have been constructed last year. The money has been voted. Will the work go on during the present season?


Robert Rogers: It is true there has been some delay in connection with this work by reason of the fact that, as we sometimes

do, we had engaged an outside architect to prepare the plans for the addition to the building at Chatham. I understand that the matter has now been righted and the work will proceed as soon as possible.


Mr. NESBITT:: 
Robert Rogers: There is some force in the remarks of my hon. friend in this respect, at all events, that the present Government have been raither ambitious in the buildings they have erected, and the same probably is true of our predecessors. This has been recognized by members on both .sides of the House during the last two or three years. As my hon. friend says, if we are going to provide public buildings throughout the country, we shall have to erect them at a more moderate cost than formerly, because it would be impossible for us to erect public buildings in all the towns and villages applying for them at the price we have been paying in the past. The department has had this matter under consideration, and has given instructions to the architects that in future more attention must be paid to the size and cost of the public buildings to be erected. In a town with a population of 1,000 or 1,500 people, I think a satisfactory building could be erected for $10,000 or $12,000 ait the most. We wish to give public buildings to the different places that really need them, and in future we are going to pay more attention to the size and cost of buildings erected.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I entirely agree with my hon. friend's policy. To spend $20,000 for a post office that has a revenue of only $1,300 seems to me absurd.


George Perry Graham: What I am going to say will no doubt be combatted by my hon. friend from North Renfrew. I need not go into too many details, as we have both brought up this matter before in the House. In my judgment, the Government has done a great wrong in changing the location of a post office from the south riding of Renfrew to the north riding. The village of Eganville is noted, amongst other things, foT being the birthplace of many great men.


Mr. G. V. WHITE:: Born on the north side of the river.


George Perry Graham: The north side should not have the great men and the post office too. The village of Eganville is divided by the river Bonnechere and a part of the village is in South Renfrew and a part in North Renfrew. For half a century the post office has been in the south riding. Some years ago it was quite a distance from the river, but owing to certain representations made by the late Mr. Mackie, then member for North Renfrew, the post office was removed down to practically the end of the bridge on the south side so as to be easier of access for the people of the village and particularly those on the north side. A fire swept the village some years ago and it became necessary to have a new post office. At that time it was recognized that the post office had always been in the south riding, and Mr. Low, who was the member for the south riding, was instrumental in having the ex-Minister of Public Works put an item in the Estimates for a public building in that village. The item was put in, but owing to certain disastrous circumstances for the country, a change took place in 1911 and the vote was not expended. Later in 1911 there was a strong agitation on the north side as well as the south side, each side wanting the new post office. I do not think I need read the correspondence. The hon. member for North Renfrew (Mr. White) represented strongly the claims of that side, and representations were made strongly for the south side. There were petitions put in from both sides of the river, and representations were made by my hon. friend and by others to whom I shall refer in a moment. In 1912, when a by-election was going on, managed by the hon. Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) and the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Cochrane), the Department of Public Works got very busy, and I find that there was a report made by Mr. Hunter in 1912. That was right in the middle of the election, but the report was made so that it would not hurt the north side or help the south side. It was very vague; in fact, Mr. Hunter did not commit himself. He said in the conclusion of the report:
I would especially point out that I am report-ting on two separate properties, without making any recommendation in favour of one or the other leaving it to your judgment or that of the head, or deputy head of the department, to make the recommendation to the Government for its approval.

The property on the north side was known as the Bonfield property and that on the south as the Mills property. The election took place in February and, in March, the Bonfield property was bought on the north t side just after the election, was over notwithstanding the fact that it had been suggested that the property on the south side was likely to be bought. In fact I do not think that a great many people thought that the post office would likely be changed. After the election, resulting in favour of the Liberal candidate, the property was immediately bought on the north side.


Gerald Verner White: Is it not a fact that the Government had never owned a post office building in Eganville?


George Perry Graham: I did not mean to insinuate that they did. Up to that time the post office had been in a rented building. This was the first time that a public building was to be erected. That property was bought in March right after the election. I asked the Minister of Public Works last session when the Estimates were going through about these properties and he told me that there were properties on both sides of the river under consideration. In that, I think he must have been mistaken because the property was already bought on the north side. Strong representations were made by men representing both sides of the river. I wish to point out in fairness to the gentleman who was my opponent at that time that he wrote several letters to the department urging strongly the location on the south side of the river where the post office had always been. The reeve of the village also urged the Government to retain the post office on the south side. In addition to that the village council unanimously passed a resolution asking that it be left on the south side. A strong letter was written by Rev. Father Dowdall, a resident of twenty years standing and a man well known and greatly beloved all through that county asking that it be lleft on the south side.
I want to protest as strongly as I can against the action of the Government. My hon. friend (Mr. Rogers) who is now the Minister of Public Works was not then Minister of Public Works but the hon. Postmaster General (Mr. Pelletier) was the same (Postmaster General we have now and I think he should have said something as to the location of this post office. I am going to give the reasons which have come to me, and which are within my knowledge, why I make this, possibly the last

protest, against the change in the site of the post office. There is no doubt in my mind that, following very close upon the by-election, it was dangled during the election before the people and the people of the south riding never thought during the by-election that their post office was going to be taken away from them and put on the north side. It was quite a factor in the campaign. My opponent legitimately used it and as a result he received the largest vote that any man had ever received from the people who get their mail from that post office. Everybody will admit that he received twice as many votes as there were Conservative votes there. It was cruel of the Government to punish the people of Renfrew, both Liberal and Conservative, who were induced by that consideration to vote for their candidate. I am going to read the resolution of the council of Eganville and it is not unreasonable to think that the council would have as good an idea as any person could have as to the location of the post office keeping in mind that the post office had always been on the south side of the river.
It was moved by Councillor J. W. Gallagher, and seconded by Councillor J. McNamara, that a resolution be passed and forwarded to the Minister of Public Works at Ottawa recommending the property known as the Bonfield property, part of College Green on the south side of the BonnechSre river, as a site for the post office. Carried unanimously.


Gerald Verner White: At what date was that passed?


George Perry Graham: July 22, 1912:
I hereby certify that the above is a true copy of a motion passed in council at the village of Eganville, July twenty-second, nineteen hundred and twelve.
Full council present composed of Reeve J. T. McCann, and Councillors J. W. Gallagher, M. D. O'Rielly, H. M. Foy and John McNamara.
Hugh Costello, Clerk, Village of Eganville.
My hon. friend will see that the purchase of the lot was kept very quiet. Even I was told in the House during the session that they were considering the purchase of lots on both sides of the river at that time. I have no doubt that the hon. member for North Renfrew knew that the lot had been purchased a few days after the election was over. I have a memorandum which I believe was forwarded to the Government in which there is some information. The memorandum reads as follows:
In behalf of the signatures of a petition to the Hon. Postmaster General and handed to the Hon. Mr. Monk, Minister of Public Works, re site of new post office at Eganville of which

petition acknowledgment was made to me to the effect that the matter was now in the hands of the Justice Department. I beg to submit the following statements, which, to the best of my belief I declare to be substantially correct:
1.	The BonnechSre river divides the village of Eganville into north and a south side. For federal purposes the north side is in the north riding of Renfrew, and the south side in the south riding of Renfrew.
2.	The post office has been since the beginning of the village, 50 odd years ago, on the south side.
3.	Some 10 years ago as the result of an agitation supported by the late Thomas Mackie, M.P., of North Renfrew, the site was changed from the southern section of the south side to the banks of the BonnechOre, close to the bridge connecting the north and south sides.
4.	The location in which is the Bonfleld property is the most central in the village and it was acceptable then to all.
5.	The initial grant of $2,000 for the new post office was given by the late Liberal Government at the request of Mr. Low, the member for the south riding.
6.	It was not at that time contemplated to change the site.
7.	Since the advent to power of the Conservative Government proposals have been made by the member for North Renfrew to have the site changed to the north side.
8.	The site proposed on the north side is not central, neither is it suitable for a post office, as it is dug into a hill 50 or 60 feet high, and subject to freshets.
9.	The petition for such site is not signed nor favoured by the majority of the business men of the village.
10.	Neither does this site meet the approval of the majority of the village or of the persons receiving their mail at the post office.
11.	On the contrary the great bulk of the business men and of others interested in the site, favour the south side site, near the bridge central, commanding and in every way suitable. -
12.	The south side of the village and the section of the south riding served by the post office have not done anything against the Government to merit a change of site so detrimental to them as the one proposed.
13.	There is ever a means to right this matter even if the north site has been chosen and purchased.
14.	Public agitation has been advisedly kept down to the present in order that the Government after the reconsideration of facts might settle this matter quietly and equitably.
15.	The annexed statistical schedules are respectfully submitted.
The above copy has no name attached to it, hut it was evidently sent because it is among the papers. I have an idea it was prepared by the Rev. Father Dowdall, but I would not say that definitely because I do not know. I will not weary the House this very warm day by going into all the details, but I may point out that on the north side of the river there are eighteen business places, while on the south side, where the post office has always been, there are forty-three. I have here a list of the 329
business firms on each side. There is also this statement:
In checking the names on the voters lists 1911 for north side of the village of Eganville, and Wilberforce, and North Algoma, on the one hand, and for south side of village of Eganville and Gratton on the other hand, the only municipalities, the whole or portions of which receive their mail at Eganville post office, the results show; Eganville, north side, 106. Wilberforce and North Algoma, 134, total 204, Eganville, south *side, 165. Gratton, 213, total 378.
I need not go into the votes cast at the different Dominion elections and the Conservative and Liberal majorities given respectively by the north side or the south side, but I may state that the people on the south side, knowing negotiations were going on for the purchase of a lot on the south side, and never dreaming that the post office was going to be moved to the north side, voted for my opponent by the score irrespective of politics, and certainly from a political standpoint it was a mistake that advice of the Minister of Customs, or the Minister of Railways, whichever is to blame for it, should have been taken to change the post office. The figures as to the people of the surrounding country who get their mail at the post office on the north side and on the south side, is preponderatingly in favour of the south side. According to the statement of Mr. John George, the assessor, the population of the south side of the Bonnechfere is 582, and the population of the north side is 444.


Gerald Verner White: According to the last census returns, page 88, Eganville in North Renfrew had a population of 618 and Eganville in South Renfrew had a population of 571.


George Perry Graham: These figures have been given to me by the assessor who took the estimate very carefully and his report is dated April 23, 1913, which is two years more recent than the census figures.


Robert Rogers: According to that the
town is getting smaller.


George Perry Graham: I am sorry to say that a good many of the smaller places in Ontario are losing population. I have placed this matter before the Government as strongly as I could. It is unfair to remove the post office to the north side; it has raised ill-feeling in Eganville. The site which would have, been selected on the south side was near the bridge, convenient to the great majority of the people, convenient to the great majority of the business places, and



more convenient in every way than the present site. This removal of the post office in a small community from one riding into another has placed those in the Government responsible for it in an unfavourable {light before the people of the south riding and they have come to the conclusion that in a moment of chagrin at a defeat which everybody knew was sure to come to them, they took this post office- from the south riding and transferred it to the north riding of Renfrew. I dlo not Iblame my hon. friend from North Renfrew (Mr. White) for urging it because he is on the north side, but I do blame the eastern Ontario ministers who are responsible for allowing that to be done. These acts of retribution perpetrated by a 'Government are calculated to raise ill-feeling, and a great big political party cannot afford to do that sort of thing. I again protest to the Government and I say that this building ought not to be erected on the north side. I say that in justice to the majority of the people who get their mail at this post office it ought to be erected on the south side of the Bonne-ohfere river near the bridge, so as to be convenient to the great majority of the inhabitants.


Gerald Verner White: I am sorry I did
not happen to be present last session when my hon. friend (Mr. Graham) brought up the question of the site for the Eganville post office, because I wanted an opportunity of showing the House and to the country what in my opinion is a just reason for the action of the Government in purchasing a site on the north side of the river. I have here a return moved for by my hon. friend (Mr. Graham) with respect to the Eganville post office and on page 3,1 find a letter addressed to myself, enclosing a petition. This petition is dated September 25,1911, four days after the memorable 21st of September of that year. It is signed by some seventy odd residents of the town of Eganville, and also, I think, by the reeve of the township of Wilber-force. This petition, as I stated, was forwarded to me with the request that I take up the matter of the purchase of a site for a public building at Eganville and recommending the purchase of the Mills property at a price of $2,000. On receipt of this petition I made a special trip to Ottawa and took the matter up, after the Government was formed, with the Minister of Public Works at that time, the late Hon. Mr. Monk. I endeavoured to point out to Mr. Monk reasons which I thought were

sufficient for the construction of this building on the north side of the river. My hon. friend from South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) says he does not blame me in the matter. I think that the Government, in view of the representations which have beeen made to them, were perfectly justified in putting the building where they placed it.
My hon. friend referred to the fact that the result of the by-election in South Renfrew had something to do with influencing the Government in deciding on the location of this building. He also pointed out the fact that the lot was purchased in March, 1912, a few weeks after the by-election. If my hon. friend from South Renfrew did not know that the lot had been purchased at that time, I can tell him that a good many of his constituents knew about it. The following letter was sent me from the secretary of the Public Works Department under date of March 19, 1912:
Gerald V. White, Esq., M.P.,
House of Commons,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-With reference to your recommendation of the 26th February last relative to the purchase of the site for the Eganville public building, I beg to inform you that an Order in Council has been passed authorizing the department to buy the property of Mr. Alex. Mills, for $2,000. Steps will be taken through the Department of Justice to complete the transaction.
Yours truly,
(Sgd) R. C. Desrochers,
Secretary.
Among the papers brought down at my request is a letter from my hon. friend the member for South Renfrew dated the 26th of March, 1912, a week after I had received this notification that the lot had been purchased, recommending to the then Minister of Public Works, Mr. Monk, the purchase of a site on the south side of the river. When Mr. Hunter, who looks after the selection of sites for the Public Works Department, visited Eganville, he took into consideration both sites; that is, the Mills site on the north side of the river and the Bonfield on the south side of the river. In looking over Mr. Hunter's letter, I find that Mr. Mills gave an option to the Government for a price of $2,000 on his property, some 6,250 square feet in area. Catherine Bonfield gave an option to the Government for the Bonfield property on the south side of the river for a price of $2,350. It is noted in this return that this price is regarded as rather high, and $2,000

is mentioned as a fair and reasonable price. Taking the assessment returns, I find that the Mills property was assessed for $2,400 and the Bonfield property for $2,100, notwithstanding the fact that Mr. Mills accepted $2,000 for his property and Mrs. Bonfield asked $2,350 for her's.


George Perry Graham: The department could
have expropriated whatever property they desired.


William Thomas White: My hon. friend also referred to some of the reasons why this building should be placed on' the south side of the river, and he said that for the last fifty odd years the post office had been located on the south side. If that i3 a reason, it ought to be a good reason for moving the site to the north side of the river, because I think it has been on the south side long enough. My hon. friend referred to the fact that the Bonfield property was the one which the residents on the south side of the river had in view. When the exmember for 'South Renfrew (Mr. Low) succeeded in getting the late Government to place an appropriation of some $2,000 in the Estimates prior to the last general election, I understand that Mr. Low recommended a site called the McCann site which is not by any means a central one. If the ex-member for South Renfrew had been a little more urgent in the matter, possibly he could have had the McCann site purchased prior to the election.
My hon. friend also referred to a resolution passed by the village council of Egan-ville, which claimed to be a unanimous one calling upon the Government to purchase a site on the south side of the river for this post office. The hon. gentleman did not tell the House, however, that there were some rather peculiar circumstances in connection with that particular resolution. It seems that there had been some friction in the village council in Eganville over some local matter, the nature of which I do not just at present recall. I think a bylaw was voted on, which the town reeve, Mr. Reinke, and several of the councillors on the north side of the river were anxious to see pass. This particular bylaw was defeated by the ratepayers of Eganville, the result being that Mr. Reinke and all the members of the council from the north side >
of the river, with the exception of Mr. Foy, " resigned.
. The result was that the vacancies were 329*
filled by a reeve named Mr. McCann from the south side of the river, leaving only one councillor from the north side of the river in the village council. I have it on pretty good authority that this resolution had been drafted some months prior to its being passed by the village council, and soon as this new council was inaugurated action was taken to pass this resolution and it was claimed that it passed unanimously. I understand that Mr. Foy from the other side, refrained from voting, so that it was not really a unanimous resolution in so far as the council was concerned.
With regard to the population of Eganville, I find on page 88 of the census of 1911 the following:
Eganville, part North Renfrew; population. 618.
Eganville, part South Renfrew: population, 571.
This shows a larger population on the north side than on the south side. Taking the previous census of 1901, I find the following :
Eganville, part North Renfrew: population, 539.
Eganville, part South Renfrew: population, 568.
In other words, in 1901 the village of Eganville had a larger population on the south side than on the north side, whereas in 1911 it had a larger population on the north side than on the south side; and this goes to show that the increase in population in ten years on the north side was seventy-nine compared with an increase during a similar period on the south side of only three.
My hon. friend also refers to the fact that there had been a very disastrous fire in the village of Eganville on, I think, the 9th of July, 1911. That fire started on the south side of the river, but the prevailing wind being a south wind, blew towards the north side, with the result that the north side suffered very much more than did the south side. Naturally, a number of the residents of the north side who were rendered homeless had to obtain temporary places of abode, and a number of them went over to the south side temporarily, which, no doubt, is the reason for the increase of population, according to the figures which my hon. friend gave, on the south side as compared with the figures taken at the time of the census.
I do not wish to detain the House any further, but I simply want to make my position clear with regard to this matter.

I took the ground that from every viewpoint the north side of the river was the proper side on which to have this public building constructed. It is only a matter of not more than 100 or 150 yards between the two sites. To my mind, if the whole village of Eganville had been in either one riding or the other there would have been no dissatisfaction whatever.


George Perry Graham: There would not have been any desire to move it, either.


William Thomas White: I do not know about that. But I am free to admit that, in so far as the action of the Government is concerned in this matter, they have done what, to my mind, is in the best interest of the village as a whole, and I am prepared to defend my action and the action of the Government either in this House or in the country.
Dredging, ?3,420,300.


Mr. PUGSLEY:: I want to ask the Minister of Public Works with regard to dredging at St. John, and perhaps this is an opportune time to do it. When I was minister I let a contract for dredging on the western side of the harbour, and there was an estimated quantity of dredging to be done. I remember that the work was not commenced just at that part of the harbour where it was first intended to begin; it was commenced further up. After the dredging had gone on for a considerable period I remember that the officials of the department called my attention to the fact that the quantity which had been named in the specifications was about reached, or perhaps, a little bit more than reached, and that it was a grave question as to whether anything more should be done without calling for new tenders. I allowed the work to go on for a short period; there was some work which seemed to me to be quite urgent. But I understand that since the change of government the same company -or it may be a company with another name; yes, it is a company under another name to whom the original work was transferred-have been allowed to continue and have done vast quantities of work, far beyond the quantity which was specified in the original tenders and which was shown on the plan under which those tenders were invited. I would like to ask the hon. minister as to that.


Robert Rogers: In answer to my hon.
friend, I think the contract to which he refers was to last five years, and to cover a certain area and to do the dredging necessary within the limits of that area, and, as
I Mr. G. V. White.]
I understand it, the work has not yet been completed. The contract only lapses on the 9th of August of this year, and all the work necessary in the area prescribed by that contract has not even yet been completed.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend the minister is wrong as to that. While there was a period of years given to complete the contract, the tenders were called for upon certain specifications and certain plans, and there was an estimated quantity of dredging to be done. I am satisfied that that quantity has been exceeded, I think it has been more than doubled since this Government came into power.


Robert Rogers: From the information
which the chief engineer gives me, I do not think that my hon. friend is correct. Of course, I shall be glad to have the matter looked into to see whether what he says is so or not. But my understanding is that the contract provided that the area to be covered, as well as the depth of the dredging, was to extend over a period of five years, which will expire on the 9th of August next.
As I understand the contract, the area over which they were working, and the depth to which it was to be dredged, have not yet been completed even in accordance with their contract.


William Pugsley: I do not want to be hypeortechnical about it, if my hon. friend has given attention to it. I think the contract as originally let was at a reasonable price. The only question would be whether or not, under the law, new tenders should be called for. I do not urge the matter unduly. What was done with regard to the removal of the beacon? I understand that was by a separate contract.


Robert Rogers: I will get the information for my hon. friend to-morrow.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: The erection of a public building in Canning, Nova' Scotia, was mentioned a few weeks ago. Since then the papers have been brought down, and are now in the possession of the House. It appears by the papers that the Government has decided to erect a public building in Canning, and there is a question as to the selection of a site. The late member for the county, Sir Frederick Borden, as I understand, has offered a free site to -the department, which is in a suitable place in the town, but the department does not seem inclined to accept it. They have been negotiating with a gentleman named N. W.

Eaton for a site in another part of the town. The papers show that the department have offered Mr. EaJton $2,000 for a eite, which appears to be uneuited to the erection of a pnlblic building for several reasons. One reason is that it has not sufficient depth. The information I have is that the depth of the site offered by Mr. Eaton, from the street to the rear of the lot, is only 374 feet. Mr. Eaton is professing to sell a site with a depth of 50 feet, hut he only owns 374 feet, as the papers disclose that a search made in the records of the county show that there is a road at the rear next the river, and in order to get the depth of 50 feet he would have to sell to the 'Government a certain part of the road, which he has not power to sell. If the Eaton site is selected, it appears also by the return that the Government will require a certain strip of another piece of land adjoining the 'EaJton lot, owned by a company of which Sir Frederick Borden is the chief stockholder. The Government are proposing to expropriate part of this lot owned by :SiT Frederick Borden's company, in order to join it with the Eaton property to make a site for the building, and they have offered $1,100 for that small strip of land in OTder to make the Eaton property large enough for the building. Sir Frederick Borden's company have refused to accept $1,100, on the ground that the property is not worth $lyl00 or anything like that sum, that it was purchased for a very much smaller sum a few years ago. The company are contesting the case on the ground that the Government are trying to push upon them too much money for this strip of land adjoining the Eaton lot. I understand the case is now before the courts. This is a very unusual state of affairs, but it appers to be a fact, and the question is why are the Government offering $1,100 for a small lot of land which they could purchase for perhaps two or three hundred dollars. The explanation is that Eaton's lot adjoins it, and the department seems to be anxious to pay Eaton $2,000 for his lot, and if they do so they would require to pay Sir Frederick's company $1,100 for the small piece adjoining, in order, as they say, to take the curse off the price of the Eaton property. For this reason, and this reason alone, the $1,100 is being pushed on the owner of the small adjoining lot. In the face of these facts I think the minister should give some explanation. The correspondence is very long, and I
shall not read it. It discloses that Sir Frederick has agreed to give a. free site for the public building, and the site that he offers appears to be well situated and to be acceptable to the inhabitants of the town of Canning. A public meeting was called some time ago, and a petition was drawn up and signed by the people of Canning, addressed to the Minister of Public Works, dated the 16th of February of the present year. It reads as follows:
The undersigned citizens of Canning and vicinity being extremely anxious as to the securing of the best site for the public building about to be constructed here, venture respectfully to communicate their views to the minister.
In so doing they point out that the matter has been carefully considered by the citizens at several public meetings called for the purpose, and that reports of the proceedings of said meetings were duly communicated on September 4 and 13 and October 1, respectively, to the minister and acknowledged by him.
No action having been taken on the resolutions and recommendations thus laid before the Department of Public Works, the undersigned consider it their duty without further delay to urge by this largely signed communication, such immediate action as will bring about the loea-' tion of the building upon a site where it will best serve the convenience of the public, and at the same time prove to be an ornament to the town and a source of pride to its citizens.
The undersigned are aware that such a site is available, the same having been most favourably reported upon by a committee of citizens whose report was unanimously adopted at a largely attended public meeting.
The site in question is situated in the centre of the business part of the town as well, as of the whole community upon commanding ground, in front of the monument, at the mouth of North avenue leading by the railway station and nearly opposite the Waverly hotel. It has a frontage of over one hundred and thirty feet on the south side of Main street, with a corresponding frontage on a public road twenty-one feet wide along the river bank and wharfs running parallel with Main street, having a depth of over sixty feet between the two streets, and affording excellent warehousing facilities.
The undersigned are credibly informed that this site was offered as a free gift to the town of Canning for this purpose as fully set forth in a letter to the Minister of Public Works dated October 1, 1913, signed by the chairman and secretary to the citizens' meeting held at Canning September 23, 1913. The undersigned have good reason for believing that this offer still remains in force, and are sure that the adoption of this site will meet with the approval of the whole community, as being beyond all question the best.
To this statement witness our signature.
Signed by 88 of the electors of Canning.
This petition is signed by no less than 88 of the electors of Canning, comprising men of both political parties, and is now, in the hands of the minister. In order that


Robert Rogers: 
John Howard Sinclair: Will that affect the
price of the other lot?


Robert Rogers: That will depend. As I
understand it, we wanted to purchase this particular lot, but the owners refused to sell.	i'


John Howard Sinclair: Would it not have been better to expropriate both lots?


Robert Rogers: Then we undertook to expropriate it. We were able to come to an agreement as regards the other lot at the price fixed upon by Mr. Dawson, the valuator of the department. He is very careful in making estimates of this character, and his work along this line has been very satisfactory to the department. I have every confidence in him and feel sure that any recommendation made by him will be justified by the facts. We have selected the site he recommended, deeming it to be in the public interest.


William Chisholm: Will the Minister of
Public Works be kind enough to say whether he proposes to erect the fence around the public buildings at Antigonish? Several years ago, after the new building was put up there, the concrete foundation for an iron fence was built and there was a vote of $500 in the Estimates of 1912 to put the iron railing around the lot. But that item disappeared and nothing has been done since. I understand that the reason why this was not proceeded with in 1912 was that there was a difficulty about the foreman, or the man who should expend this little item. If the minister has any anxiety about it I will recommend a man myself. The lot is rather unsightly as a result of not putting up this fence. Architect Hewitt prepared the design of the fence, Mr. Ewart, the chief architect, approved of it and the money was put in the Estimates but has disappeared.


Robert Rogers: I have no knowledge of the circumstances to which my hon. friend refers and my deputy does not appear to have any recollection of it either, but we have taken a note and we will take the matter up with the chief architect.


William Chisholm: I would also like to ask the minister if he has acted on the resolution that was passed by the Board of Trade of Antigonish asking for the dredging of Antigonish harbour. There was a resolution passed to the following effect:
Resolved that the federal Government he asked to instruct the local Department of Public Works to prepare an estimate of the cost of opening the present entrance to the Antigonish harbour by deepening the channel across the bar, and further, to instruct said department to ascertain the cost of straightening the harbour channel from No. ll's point (so called) to the present wharf; and further, the cost of deepening channel from the present wharf to Salmon Hole; and further, that when plans and estimates thereof are prepared by said department the Government be asked to vote a sum sufficient for the performance of said work.
The board of trade was a little in error, because, as a matter of fact, the department had been asked a few years ago to have this attended to and a survey was made. It would not therefore be necessary for the local representatives of the department to be communicated with, as was requested in that resolution, because I think the minister has in his department all the information that is required. All that is necessary now is to have the dredging done. I want to know from the minister whether he intends to have that dredging done this year or if he has an item in the Estimates to cover this work. It is very important and urgent that this work be speedily attended to.


Robert Rogers: We have the general vote for dredging and we have had a considerable number of representations in respect to this particular work. The matter is under consideration. Our full programme for dredging has not yet been completed and the matter will be kept in mind when the balance of the work is under consideration.


William Chisholm: So that the minister
has not yet definitely decided whether he shall do this dredging or not? I observe that a local paper published at Antigonish states:
We have also the assurance that the Government at Ottawa will begin in a short time the opening of Antigonish harbour.
Has the minister or any of his officials given any assurance to anybody that this work was going to be attended to?


Robert Rogers: Not that I am aware of.


William Chisholm: This is an old question. On January 26, 1912, 'Hansard' page 2202, the then Minister of Public Works, the late

Mr. Monk, referred to this very matter in the following words:
As regards the harbour at Antigonish, X shall give my hon. friend's observations every possible consideration. The demands for public works are of course very great, and it is difficult to satisfy them all, however reasonable they be. The estimates for dredging are very considerable, and the Government would not be justified in granting all the demands until we have occasion to go into the organization of our dredging and see what improvements can be made, but I shall give careful consideration to my hon. friend's request.
As far back as 1912 the late Minister of Public Works had the matter under consideration and he encouraged in the minds of the people .the belief that something would in the near future be done. Some time ago in this House, when an item was under consideration for the erection of a public building in the western part of the province, complaint was made that the minister was in the habit of putting items in the Estimates without any intention of expending the money, and in this particular instance the item had been voted and revoted for a public building although the ground had not been purchased. The minister stated that it was the intention on all occasions when he asked a vote to expend the money. I observed by the Estimates that were brought down last year, and the Estimates brought down this year -1914-1915, that there was $66,900 for Antigonish county, but I observed that $63,500 of that amount was a revote carried over from year to year. What is the idea of putting these items in the Estimates and carrying them over from year to year? Just think of it-$66,900 in the Estimates of which $63,500 is a revote! The Minister of Finance, in his Budget speech delivered April 6, 1914, said:
In considering the matter of Estimates as compared with revenue it must be kept in mind that appropriations do not always mean expenditure, partial or complete, and that on the experience of the past it may be confidently predicted that a considerable portion will be unexpended and lapse.
Is there an arrangement between the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Public Works that these items will be put in the Estimates, carried over from year to year and allowed to lapse? If so that is hardly dealing frankly with the public. It is a good deal like the way in which the farmers of Ontario, who have been the victims of the Farmers Bank, have been dealt with. Their hopes were strengthened

and they were allowed to believe that they would be paid but it turns out now that they will not be paid. It is bad enough to disappoint the people in their reasonable and legitimate demands but it is almost worse to hold out encouragement and hope that improvements are going to be made when it is not seriously contemplated to make these expenditures. I observed still further, in a letter that the Minister of Public Works wrote through his secretary on the eve of an election in Antigonish county, that there was a promise of an expenditure of $207,300 for dredging in that county. That was on December 28, 1912. The minister on that occasion wrote a letter in which he stated that he was increasing the list of items to be placed in the Supplementary Estimates to provide for expenditures in the county of Antigonish. Of course, the Supplementary Estimates had not been prepared then and they were not prepared for a long time after that but the people were encouraged to hope that these expenditures would be made last year. It turned out that not one-half, not one-tenth, scarcely a dollar, has been expended for dredging. The wharfs and breakwaters have been allowed to go to ruin, the harbours have been filling in, and my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Foster) had to apologize the other day for the character of the steamboat service because of the inferior character of the harbours down there. They have been entirely neglected since 1911. I would ask the minister whether he has in his Estimates this year a sum for a wharf at Georgeville, and whether he is going to expend the $90,000 that he promised in his letter of September 28, 1912. Why has that not been expended? Why is not the Auld's Cove item in the Estimates of this year? So it is ail through the items for Antigonish county.
The minister, in justice to himseli, and as a matter of fair play to the people who are looking for these improvements, should state what he purposes doing. It is not enough to make promises; we want to see the cash, we want to see the money expended, and these very necessary improvements provided. I ask the minister why it is that the appropriations for a new wharf at Georgeville, $90,000, and to open the channel at Auld's cove, $15,000, have been dropped from the Estimates?


Robert Rogers: I am not aware what the reasons are; it would be impossible lor me to carry all these things in my head.


William Chisholm: I suppose they served their purpose?


Robert Rogers: According to figures given to my hon. friend we are carrying out a great deal of work in the county of Anti-gonish, and I do not think he has much to complain about.


William Chisholm: The minister misunderstood me. Of the $66,900 in the Estimates for 1914-15, practically all of which was voted in the Estimates of 1911-12 by the late Government, and continued from year to year without any money being expended, $63,500 is a revote, so that $3,400 has been expended in the county of Anti-gonish during the past year, in connection with the numerous wharfs and breakwaters, and other public works. I do not think the minister is giving us a fair deal, to say the least; I think we deserve better treatment from him, particularly as he was so generous on the eve of that by-election as to offer $207,000, and to go so far as to say the money would be appropriated long before the Estimates were submitted to Council. In view of the fact that he offered $207,000 to the people down there if they were good, he ought to make good his promises to some extent now.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The people were good?


William Chisholm: They were not good in the direction the minister would like.


George William Kyte: My hon. friend from Antig-onish has been more fortunate than I, inasmuch as the minister continues in the Estimates the appropriations for his county from year to year, but in the Estimates of 1911-12 appeared grants for the following public works in the county of Richmond, which have been dropped altogether: breakwater at Port Richmond, wharf at River Inhabitants, wharf at Louisdale, wharf at Fourchu, wharf at Soldier's Cove.
There was also a report with respect to the construction of a breakwater at Point Michaud. I understand that the site for the wharf at Fourchu was purchased since the present Government came into power. With respect to the wharf at Louisdale, tenders were called for but when the change of Government took place the contract was not awarded. I do not expect the Minister of Public Works to charge his mind with all these particular items, but I would like to know if he can to-morrow on going into
Supply give me the reasons why these items have dropped from the Estimates and no provision made for them during the present session.


John Howard Sinclair: A couple of years ago the department constructed a wharf at Sand Point on the Strait of Canso. The money for the construction of this wharf was voted and a suitable site for the wharf was selected by the late Government. A contract was entered into prior to the change of Government. That site was changed after the present Government came into power, and the wharf was erected at a point where the water is so shallow that the passenger steamers cannot call. The chief purpose of erecting this wharf was that the people might have the benefit of the steamer calling on its route between the town of Guysborough and the railway station	at Mulgrave.
As the steamer passes right close to Sand Point, it was thought that the erection of a public wharf at that place would be a great convenience to the people of that locality, as it would save them a drive of eight or nine miles to the railway station. There is a'daily boat passing their doors. The site of the wharf was changed to suit the politics of the district and to give $150 or $200 to a friend of the Conservative party. But the unfortunate thing is that the water is not sufficiently deep at that place, which is owned by a Conservative proprietor, for the steamer to call. It is now necessary that the minister should spend an additional sum and extend the wharf further out, so that it may be some use to the people. If the wharf had been erected at the place where the officers of the department had selected before the change of Government, there would have been sufficient water for the steamer to call; but as it is now it is useless. As some thousands of dollars have been spent upon the wharf, I wish the minister to look into the matter, and if he finds the facts stated by me to be correct, I would suggest that he provide a further additional amount to extend the wharf out into the Strait of Canso, so that it may be used.


Robert Rogers: The chief engineer has taken note of the remarks of my hon. friend. We will be glad to have the matter looked into, but I cannot believe that such a condition as that described by my hon. friend could be brought about during the past two or three years.
Progress reported.



Robert Rogers: With the consent of the House, and before you leave the Chair, Mr. Speaker, I desire to present the second and final report of the special committee to whom was referred Bill No. 62, an Act to readjust the representation in the House of Commons, with instructions to consider and report, and to prepare schedules containing and describing the several electoral divisions entitled to return members to the House of Commons.


George Perry Graham: When will the Bill in regard to redistribution be introduced ?


Robert Laird Borden: The Bill will be taken up some time to-morrow afternoon. It has already been introduced and is ready for distribution.


Robert Rogers: Copies of the Bill are now being distributed and will be placed on the desk of every member; and we shall be very glad if each member will take the trouble to look over the schedule of his own constituency, because certain clerical errors may have occurred and will require to be corrected in committee.


THE EMPRESS OF IRELAND DISASTER.
Robert Laird Borden: With the consent of the House I would like to read the following telegram in regard to the Empress of Ireland disaster:
H. M. S. Philomel, Survaradlo, via Ottawa,
June 5, 1914.
His Royal Highness Viceroy of Canada,
Quebec.
Being absent in the Cook islands have only Just heard of terrible disaster to Empress of Ireland, and desire on behalf of myself, my Government and people of New Zealand to convey our deepest sympathy at this terrible catastrophe.
(Sgd) Liverpool,
Governor.
At six o'clock, the House took recess.
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Prince Edward Island-For improvements in telegraph and telephone service, $45,000.


George Perry Graham: What became of the road the hon. minister was going to build for the Montreal chaps?


Robert Rogers: What road does my hon. friend mean?


George Perry Graham: The road asked for at the annual meeting of the Motor Association. They asked the minister to put a road along there, and he said he would send an engineer.


Robert Rogers: That contract is let and
is going on.


Mr. PROULX:: With regard to roads and bridges, I suppose it is the intention of the department to call for tenders soon for the substructure of the interprovincial bridge across the Ottawa river at Hawkes-bury?


Robert Rogers: Instructions have already been given to call for tenders.


Edmond Proulx: Can the minister say whether the right of way has been acquired from the Hawkesbury Lumber Company?


Robert Rogers: It is being expropriated.


Edmond Proulx: Have the proceedings been commenced?


Robert Rogers: The chief engineer informs me that the proceedings are going on.


Edmond Proulx: But the matter has not yet been decided by the Exchequer Court?


Robert Rogers: Not yet.


George Perry Graham: Can the minister tell us off-hand how many miles of telegraph and telephone lines there are under the Public Works Department?


Robert Rogers: About 6,000 miles of both in all the provinces.
Public Works-Miscellaneous, ,$1,181,150.


George Perry Graham: Who is the chief architect now?


Robert Rogers: Mr. Ewart is the chief architect yet. But I may as well say, in view of the fact that my hon. friend has asked the question, that as Mr. Ewart has grown pretty old in the service and has been a good and faithful servant of the country, it is being arranged to appoint a new chief architect, largely on the recommendation of Mr. Ewart himself, and Mr. Ewart is to be retained at his present salary as general supervisor.


George Perry Graham: Who will be the new man?


Robert Rogers: We have not any idea. If you can recommend a first-class man, we shall be glad to know of him. We want above all things a first-class architect.


George Perry Graham: I am not strong on architects.


Mr. EOBB:: Eegarding the item for the demarcation of the boundary line between the United States and Canada, can the minister tell us what progress has been made in arriving at a neutral zone on the international boundary line?


Mr. EOGEES:: They are at work, and it is hoped that the work will be finished this summer. There is nothing further that I could say to my hon. friend that would be of much value.


George Perry Graham: I want to ask a question for information. What does ' metering ' the St. Lawrence river mean?


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is in connection with the discharge of the St. Lawrence, with the view of ascertaining just how much water the Americans are taking. It is necessary to have that information from an international point of view.


George Perry Graham: The flow of the St. Lawrence ?


Norman McLeod Rogers: The whole flow of the St. Lawrence.
Slides and booms, graving docks, locks and dams, etc., working expenses, etc., $181,400.


Norman McLeod Rogers: This is just the operating expenses in connection with our slides and booms.


George Perry Graham: This item for Levis graving dock has nothing to do with the new dock being built down there?	.


Norman McLeod Rogers: That is for the maintenance of the dock we have.


George Perry Graham: The present graving dock?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes.
Harbours and rivers, $11,690,500.


George Perry Graham: I see an item here about the French Eiver waterway improvements. Will my hon. friend tell me to what extent the work there is proceeding. Is it to be considered a start on the Georgian Bay canal?


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is an improvement of the French river, and we have let a contract, as my hon. friend knows, and it is proceeding. If is possible that another contract may be let in the near future.


George Perry Graham: Where are they working now?


Norman McLeod Rogers: At the Big Chaudiere.


George Perry Graham: That is west of lake
Nipissing?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes, about fifteen miles.


George Perry Graham: Has anything been done yet in lake Nipissing? How much money will my hon. friend expend there this year?


Norman McLeod Rogers: We have $500,000 in the Estimates.


George Perry Graham: That is a liberal amount for what you will spend the way you are going at it.


Norman McLeod Rogers: We are making considerable progress now.
Public Works-Ottawa-Eastern Departmental Block-Further amount required, $40,000.


George Perry Graham: How is my hon. friend getting on with this new building on Sussex street? The substructure was being constructed on force account. Is that proving pretty expensive?


Norman McLeod Rogers: The foundation has proved rather expensive. We have it completed now.
Mr. WM. CHISHOLM: What did it cost?


Norman McLeod Rogers: 

Harbours and rivers-Port Arthur and Fort William-Harbour and river improvements- Further amount required, $500,000.


George Perry Graham: What is being done at Port Arthur and Fort William?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Just carrying out the work which is continued from year to year, the breakwaters and dredging. We have to have a breakwater covering the two ports.


George Perry Graham: Is any of this extended in the river?


Norman McLeod Rogers: There is some dredging on the river.
Mr. CAEBOL'L: Is there any provision for dredging in Glace Bay? I referred to this some time ago.


Norman McLeod Rogers: The dredging at Glace bay comes out of the general vote for dredging, and we are proposing to go on with the work.
Athens- public building, $5,000.


George Perry Graham: How much will the Athens public building cost?


Norman McLeod Rogers: The contract is let at $13,800.

Chesley-Public building, $5,000.


George Perry Graham: This Chesley public
building, I suppose, is the one that was promised an South Bruce during the by-election there. They were to have a new public building and customs office. The Postmaster General also put letter boxes all over the town of Chesley. These things are going to be expensive. Unless the Postmaster General is going to adopt the policy of giving letter-boxes to all small towns, I object to his putting them in a very pretty but small town in a riding where an election is taking place. If the policy is to put them in all towns, I shall have a requisition for at least 122 places of that size, and with an equal amount of business, which require letter-boxes just as much as Chesley. But, of course, we cannot have by-elections in them all, that is the trouble. There must be some basis for the distribution of these things outside of by-elections.


Robert Rogers: My hon. friend is in error in regard to the poet office. The contract was let in April, 1912.
Mr. GRAHAM-; I was not referring to the post office. I said a public building.


Robert Rogers: It is the same thing.


George Perry Graham: My hon. friend has missed the point. It was arranged to take in the Customs Department in order to redeem the promise made by the Minister of Customs to the manufacturers of that riding. I am not objecting to that, but I object to the Postmaster General for political purposes giving letter-boxes to a certain district when he refuses them to places of equal size or larger.


Robert Rogers: This was provided for in the original contract made in 1912. We expected that the Customs department would occupy part of the building when we made the contract.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. gentleman knows that many of these buildings provide space for the Customs Department, which does not necessarily occupy it at once.


George Perry Graham: That excuses the Minister of Public Works, but does not excuse the Minister of Customs. He made a promise at a very convenient time, when he need not have made it till later.
St. Jacques de l'Achigan.-Public building- revote of lapsed amount, $15,000.


Mr. LAFORTUNE:: When I first came to Parliament, I succeeded in obtaining the

sum of $15,000 for the construction of a post office at St. Jacques de l'Achigan in the county of Montcalm. In the session of 1911-12 the new Government withdrew this sum from the estimates, and .since then I have not ceased to make efforts to have it replaced. I have at last succeeded, and in the name of the electors of my county, I wish to thank the hon. minister of Public Works for having rendered us this justice. I see in the estimates an item of $7,000 for a public building at St. Laurent. May I ask the hon. minister for an explanation of this vote?


Robert Rogers: In regard to the first item to which my hon. friend has referred, he will remember that last year we promised to reinstate this vote which he so much appreciates. This $7,000 item is asked for to supplement the $15,000 vote placed in the Main Estimates for 1914-15. It is to make provision to complete the erection of a public building at St. Laurent on a site given free by the municipality, situate on the northeast corner of DeCelles Street and Grande Allee de Florence, with frontages of 108 feet on the former street by 112 feet on the latter. The proposed building is required for post office purposes, etc.


David Arthur Lafortune: Do I understand that this $7,000 forms part of the $25,000 we voted last year?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


David Arthur Lafortune: Is it for extra work?


Robert Rogers: We have not let the contract yet; this is simply to proceed with the building. In a public building of this kind we have electric fixtures, fittings, etc., to pay for.
Edmonton-New drill hall-Revote, $50,000.


Frank Oliver: Has work been begun on the drill hall?


Robert Rogers: The contract has been let and the work is proceeding.
Experimental farms-New buildings and improvements, tobacco curing stations, renewals and repairs, etc., in connection with existing buildings, fences, etc.-Further amount required, $66,800.


William F. Carroll: Are these tobacco-curing stations maintained for experimental purposes ?


Robert Rogers: This is an additional amount asked for by the Department of Agriculture. We simply put up the building; my hon. friend's question is for the Minister of Agriculture to answer.

East river-Improvements-Further amount required, $113,000.


George Perry Graham: What is this for ?


Robert Rogers: This is to finish the canal we are building at East river.


George Perry Graham: This will clean it up ?
' Mr. ROGERS: Yes.
Barachois-Extension of training pier, $700.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There are many places of that name in Nova Scotia. Whereabouts is this particular one ?


Robert Rogers: It is in the county of my hon. friend. It is asked for in a letter from John McCormick, of Sydney Mines, Nova Scotia, and W. McLeod, of Eel Cove, Nova Scotia. District engineer Bemasconi estimates the cost of the work requires $700 as follows: Extension inward, 1,500 cubic feet cribwork at eight cents, $120; extension outward, 4,800 cubic feet cribwork at ten cents, $480; superintendence, contingencies, etc., $100-making a total of $700.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Whereabouts in the county is it?


Robert Rogers: It is in the county of North Cape Breton, but I cannot say just where.
Ogden's pond-Constructing sand groin and extending channel pier, $2,800.


William Chisholm: What sort of an extension is proposed ?


Robert Rogers: This amount of $2,800 is asked for by District Engineer Millidge for the construction of a sand groin and the extension of the pier at Ogden's Pond. Mr. Millidge states that the work consists of cutting down outer end of present work to L.W.S., rebuilding and extending a distance 30 feet to 5 feet at L.W.S.; constructing a sand groin 150 feet by 5 feet, 350 feet to the northward.
Cutting down outer end present work
to L.W.S	$	50 00
Creosote and native crib-work, 11,200
cubic feet at 12 cents	 1,344 00
Sheathing and fenders creosoted, 3,276
feet B.M. at $30	 229 32
Sheathing, fenders, covering and cap
7,750 feet B.M. at	$28	 217	60
For building sand groin, piles, poles,
cross-ties, etc	
699	80Contingencies, etc	
259	38

The sand groin is to prevent the sand and gravel from making up in the seaward side of the channel pier; and the extension to strengthen the outer end of the pier which is in a very bad condition, the creosoted
timber having settled so low that the native timber is below the level of LW.S., where it has been badly eaten by the torredo.
South Lake, Lakevale-Protection work,


William Chisholm: Would the minister kindly explain this item?


Robert Rogers: This is for the construction of a brush, stone and pile protection work at the south side of the entrance of the channel to maintain the present minimum depth of water of 1} feet at extreme low water.


William Chisholm: There was an appropriation of $12,000 to finish that job but it seems to have been lost sight of in the last year or two. Last year there was a steam dredge down there; in fact, one of the dredges was there nearly the whole of the summer, but nothing was accomplished because the harbour was filling in as fast as the dredge would scoop it up and at the end of the season they were no farther ahead than when they had begun. If the department would go ahead and finish that job once and for all at an estimated cost of something like $12,000 there would be no necessity of this tinkering and pottering.
Cape Dauphin-Boat harbour, $1,500.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Would the minister
tell me what is going to be done there?


Robert Rogers: This is to provide a
shelter for the fishermen of Cape Breton and North Victoria in the Cape Dauphin boat harbour. The chief engineer is now reporting on it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Has he reported that
$1,500 will construct the shelter?


Robert Rogers: That is what is deemed to be necessary for the immediate protection of that harbour. I doubt if that will be enough for the completion of the work, but this amount is placed in the Estimates in order that we can proceed with it during the present year.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There is no doubt at
all that this is a very desirable work, but this is only a piece of the coast line along the Bras d'Or lakes and the only thing the minister can do is to build a breakwater which will afford shelter to the boats in behind it. It will require a very substantial structure and I have no doubt that the minister will finish the work once he begins it, but to finish it will require a vote of several times this amount.


Robert Rogers: We are making a start
any-way and we will try to finish it.


William F. Carroll: I am very glad to see in the Estimates a vote for Round Island, Mira Bay breakwater. I would like to find out from the minister if tenders will be called for the breakwater this season?


Robert Rogers: Yes, the engineers are
looking into this now and as soon as we get their report tenders will be called for. This is a very pressing work and we mean to proceed with it as rapidly as we can.


William F. Carroll: I would ask the minister to go ahead with the work this summer. A new coal company is building a line of railway to this shipping point and it is very important that the protection of the little harbour should be gone ahead with.


Robert Rogers: We understand all that.
Harbours and rivers, Quebec-Valleyfield- New wharf, $5,000.


James Alexander Robb: Will the minister tell us
where the new wharf at Valleyfield will be located? .


Robert Rogers: Two applications have
been received for wharfs at Valleyfield and the report of the engineer is that the location at the upper end of the channel is the one which will be best in the public interest. It is proposed to proceed with that one at the upper end of the channel. No doubt my hon. friend understands the location there.


James Alexander Robb: Have the business men and the Board of Trade of Valleyfield endorsed the view of his chief engineer in that regard?


Robert Rogers: There appears to be a difference of opinion as to which is the more desirable location, but I am being guided by the engineers of the department who recommend that a wharf at the upper end of the channel will be sufficient to meet all the public requirements for the next year or two at all events.


James Alexander Robb: If the minister had time to go down there his own common sense would prevent him from placing that wharf where he says his engineer has said it should be placed. I understand that the wharf is wanted up there because some of the hon. gentleman's interested political friends have put up a deal to get the wharf at the western point. I submit to the minister that, if he does put the wharf where it is proposed, it will never be used. The people who conduct the business of Valley-

field will compel the steamboats to come in, as they come in now, along the canal bank and load and unload there.


Robert Rogers: The chief engineer informs me that we have two reports, one for the extension of the present wharf and one for the building of a new wharf at the we^t end. It has not yet been decided which will be adopted but the recommendations up to date seem to be in favour of the west end.


James Alexander Robb: The recommendations are from the minister's employee who submitted the report. I would like the minister to make a clear statement if the business men of Valleyfield, speaking through the board of trade and the municipal council, have not declared in favour of the other wharf.


Robert Rogers: I have not all the information before me but if my hon. friend says so, probably he has a better knowledge of the local conditions than I have.
I understand from the chief engineer that the recommendation to the department was to the effect that the west end was deemed to be the best in the public interest. We will look into the matter and consideration will be given to the views of my hon. friend before a decision is reached.


James Alexander Robb: I thank the minister for
that last statement. All I have to say is that if the Government can stand putting the wharf on the west end, we on this side can.
Public Works-Harbours and rivers, Quebec, $??0,192.


Mr. C. A. WILSON:: I wish to know from the Minister of Public Works whether this year he is going to dredge the river des Prairies in the neighbourhood of St. Vincent de Paul? Is it the intention of the minister to continue the work which was started under the Liberal Government and on which about $25,000 was expended? Dredge No. 6 was constructed especially for that work on the river des Prairies but I have been informed that it has been taken down to Longueuil. This river i3 part of the Georgian Bay canal route, and the minister has pledged his word that the Georgian Bay canal will be constructed some time or other.


Robert Rogers: I would not like to say definitely that it would be desirable to do any work on the river des Prairies this summer. We have appointed a commission

to make further investigation into the Georgian Bay canal, and this portion of the Back river will undoubtedly in my judgment form part of the Georgian Bay canal scheme whenever it is taken up. In view of the fact that there was apparently no special or pressing necessity for dredging at this point this, year, and as the engineers of the department report that there are pressing demands at other points, the dredge has been put at work elsewhere. I can assure my horn. friend that the matter will have careful consideration and if it is found absolutely necessary to do work there this year there is no reason why it should not he done.


Charles Avila Wilson: This is not a political scheme, for, as I understand it, Laval county has been wiped off the political map and I am not seeking for votes now. However, we may meet somewhere else if not in Laval. The Minister of Justice knows perfectly well that the clearing of the river at this point would facilitate the shipping of coal to the penitentiary.


Robert Rogers: If there is necessity to do any work on the river des Prairies this year it can be taken out of the general vote for dredging. The plan of our dredging has not yet been arranged for the present year. I understand that the work where the dredge now is will not last long, and if the engineers of the department recommend that work should be done on the Tiver des Prairies, and that is more necessary than work at other points, my hon. friend (Mr. Wilson) can depend that the work will be carried on in accordance with the recommendation of the engineer, so far as it is in the public interest to allow it to take precedence over other work.


Charles Avila Wilson: If you leave it to
Mr. Hunter and to Mr. Lafleur, the work will be done.


Robert Rogers: It is entirely in their
hands.
Public Works-Harbours and rivers, Ontario, $707,643.


George Perry Graham: What work has been
done at Burlington Bay for which you ask $250,000?


Robert Rogers: This vote is to carry on improvements in Hamilton harbour, for the construction of harbour facilities, wharfs, dredging, retaining walls for the dock, new wharf at the end of Wentworth street, etc.
Manitoba-Assiniboine river improvements, $14,600.


Frank Oliver: What are the improvements? Is this item for removing obstructions to navigation in the river?


Robert Rogers: Yes, not far up from Winnipeg. I think the Harbour Commissioners of Winnipeg have been recommending it.


Frank Oliver: I was not aware that there was any navigation 6n the Assiniboine river except for the purpose of bringing down sand, or something of that kind. There is no regular, ordinary steamboat navigation on the river?


Robert Rogers: Yes, due to the fact that, since the St. Andrew's locks have been constructed, the water has backed up in the Assiniboine river, and navigation is improving to a marked extent.


Frank Oliver: How far up the river do the boats go?


Robert Rogers: They run up some distance heyond Headingly.
Manitoba-Red river, St. Andrew's lock and dam, improvements, further amount required, $12,500.


Frank Oliver: Is this amount likely to be all that will be required?


Robert Rogers: I believe so.


Frank Oliver: This seems to be a perpetually recurring source of expenditure. We had the impression that the construction of this lock and dam was finished before the present Government came into power.


Robert Rogers: As my hon. friend will understand, the building of the St. Andrew's lock and dam has been a very big and expensive piece of work; but it has been a very useful work and has been much appreciated by all the people living along the Red river and the Assiniboine river, and especially by the citizens of Winnipeg. It is opening up a great trade between Winnipeg and lake Winnipeg. To-day the trade on the Red river is much larger than that on several of our important canals and it is developing extremely rapidly. This small amount is simply for the completion of the' grounds, fencing and fixing up around the lock.


Frank Oliver: It is really for ornamental work.


Robert Rogers: It is for the finishing
touches, so to speak.

Saskatchewan and Alberta-Pigeon Lake dam, $3,000.


Frank Oliver: What is the purpose ol
this dam?


Robert Rogers: This amount is asked for the district engineer, Elliott. The proposed work consists of the building of a self-loading wooden dam on Pigeon creek where it drains into Pigeon lake. A very large area	of hay	land
lying around Pigeon creek is subject to an overflow of water from the creek. The purpose of this dam is to make the flow a minimum during the hay season. At present it is almost impossible to get this hay, which grows very abundantly, owing to the land being flooded. These lands are the only available hay lands in the district. This creek flowing through this meadow takes a very circuitous route; and if straightened, it would materially help to drain the meadow. The work is of a public nature and will be greatly appreciated by the people living in that district which is comparatively well settled with farmers, stock raisers, etc. Chief engineer Elliott strongly recommends this work as being in the public interest.


Frank Oliver: I have never visited the
locality, but I know a good deal about it. I must say that this is rather a remarkable proposition. It is a dam for the purpose of holding the water while it is high.


Robert Rogers: It regulates the water as well.


Frank Oliver: It holds the water back
from being disposed of while it is there in abundance. I do not object to the proposal at all; but is there not a possibility that, when that dam is holding back the high water from running down 9 p.m. Pigeon creek and flooding those low lands, it will have the effect of flooding the lands along the shore of the lake?


Robert Rogers: My chief engineer informs me that it will not have that effect, because the spring freshets are passed off by sluices and so on.
Saskatchewan and Alberta-Saskatchewan river improvements, $250,000.


Frank Oliver: What are these improvements, and at what stage are they? What is the Government's plan; how far has that plan been carried out, and how much 
farther will this vote enable them to carry it out?


Robert Rogers: This is rather a complicated matter, but it arose a few years ago when the people of Prince Albert started the development of the Saskatchewan river. They had, as I understand it, a promise from my predecessor, the hon. membeT for St. John (Mr. Pugsley), and the right hon. the leader of the Opposition, then leader of the Government, that a certain share would be borne by the Government in this undertaking which they had in contemplation, namely, the Ibuilding of a dam on the Saskatchewan river for the carrying out of their work. This promise was followed by a promise on the part of ipy predecessor, Mr. Monk. This appropriation is simply for the purpose of carrying out the promise made by the late Government.


Frank Oliver: It is just in relation to that development which is being undertaken by the city of Prince Albert?


Robert Rogers: Yes, for the building of the dam.


Frank Oliver: It is not for work along the Saskatchewan river generally?


Robert Rogers: No.


Frank Oliver: Ie it intended to give canal accommodation past the dam?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Frank Oliver: How far has the work gone?


Robert Rogers: It is pretty nearly completed. The people of Prince Albert have spent over a million dollars on it.
Dredging-Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, further amount required, $6,200.


Frank Oliver: Is any of this appropriation for expenditure in Lesser Slave lake? Some dredging was done there some years ago, and I was wondering if any more was being done.


Robert Rogers: This amount is required in addition to the appropriation of $85,000 in the Main Estimates in order to make provision for the operation and maintenance of the dredging plants in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.	The estimated cost of operating the plant is $69,000.


Frank Oliver: I do not want to delay the committee, but if there is any expenditure on Lesser Slave lake, I want to know it, and if there is not, it is all right.


Robert Rogers: I do not seem to have
anything here for Lesser Slave lake. There is something for Grouard.


Frank Oliver: Grouard is the place I
mean.


Robert Rogers: We are spending $6,000
there.


Frank Oliver: That will be spent this
summer?


Robert Rogers: Yes.
Telegraph lines-Cape Breton lines; further amount required, $4,280.
Mr. MeKENZIE*. Will the hon. minister tell me where these lines are?


Robert Rogers: This amount is required
for the repoling of the line, for repairs and for equipment.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I would ask the minister if the line which was in course of construction under the former Government between Baddeck and Ferry Landing and Ferry Landing and McKay's Point has been completed. Under the former Government it was completed from Baddeck to Ferry Landing, and some offices were opened, but it was not completed from Ferry Landing to McKay's Point, although I think the poles were given out by the former Government and the wire was bought. I would like to know if these poles were erected and the line completed between Ferry Landing and McKay's Point, and where the office is.


Robert Rogers: My deputy informs me
that he has not that information here. I have asked him to take a note of the matter and to write the hon. member about it tomorrow.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This section of country from Ferry Landing to McKay's Point is, by reason of the water surrounding, cut off from the mainland practically the same as an island, and to communicate with a doctor or a clergyman, or on urgent business of any kind, a telegraph line would be a very great convenience. I would suggest to the minister that he try and complete this line as soon as possible, because the poles and the wire have been there for some considerable time.


Robert Rogers: We will have the matter looked up, and the deputy will write to my hon. friend to-morrow.
Telegraph lines; Saskatchewan and Alberta, $99,500.


Mr. ALFRED THOMPSON:: I would like to draw the attention of the minister to 330
the desirability of extending the telegraph system in some suitable way to the delta of the Mackenzie river and to connect it with Herschel island. Mr. Stefansson, who is the director of a party of scientists who are visiting the Arctic ocean, as the House probably knows, has written me on this subject, and advises me that trade in the Mackenzie River valley is developing considerably, that settlements are being established there at different points, and that it is very desirable to have a wireless telegraph station established on the delta of the Mackenzie. There have been one or two rather bad wrecks in that part of the Arctic, and Stefansson informs me that there is a very small food supply at that particular point, where there is a police post, and, I believe, a whaling station. He suggests, and I submit his observations, that the Government might very well have a cache of food supplies along the shore of the Arctic ocean in the event of a stranded crew of shipwrecked mariners finding themselves in that northern sea. I submit for the consideration of the Minister of Public Works the desirability of either extending the land line down to the mouth of the Mackenzie riveT or of establishing a wireless station at that point to connect with the land lines in southern Saskatchewan and Alberta.


Robert Rogers: I would say that the question of wireless stations, of course, is in the department of the Minister of Marine, and he will no doubt take note of the hon. gentleman's suggestions. Regarding the other matters, we will take a note of them so far as the Public Works Department is concerned, and, in so far as is possible, we will endeavour to meet the recommendations which he has made.
Public Works-Miscellaneous, $380,408.16.


George Perry Graham: I see an item ' to pay Western Drydock and Shipbuilding Company, Limited, of Port Arthur, a portion of the first payment of subsidy due them upon their completion of the work covered by the agreement ratified by Chap. 57, 3-4 George V, 1913, notwithstanding that the work is not completed, $35,641.50/ What is the explanation of that?


Robert Rogers: When this contract was entered into, it was discovered that three of the buildings that were contemplated in the original contract would not be required immediately, and this special vote is asked for to exempt the cost of these three buildings.


George Perry Graham: To pay proportionately?


Robert Rogers: That is what it is for.
Mr. MeKENZIE: I wish to refer briefly to investigations held under the Inquiries Act. In Nova Scotia we had headsmen in each county, sometimes one headsman for more than one county. In North Cape Breton and Victoria, in fact all the counties of Cape Breton and eastern Nova Scotia, we had a commissioner named Duchemin who was a very active commissioner. I understand that the Orders in Council appointing those commissioners fixed their salaries at $15 dollars a day with incidentals, and they only received $15 no rnatteT how many inquiries they conducted in one day. Mr. Duchemin is a man of my own profession, a barrister of some standing, a strong temperance advocate, a man who stands high in his church, and besides all his other virtues he is the editor of the Tory organ, the Sydney Post, in the city of Sydney. Being a prominent man and always preaching righteousness and truthfulness and honesty through his paper and on the platform, it strikes one as peculiar that there should be anything but the most rigid particularity and punctuality about anything that he would do. A man of such high standing would be expected to be very particular when he would come to deal with money matters in which he was personally interested, and wheie his own personal interests were put in contra distinction to those of the country. On September 6, 1912, Mr. Duchemin held court at a place called Big Bras D'Or in the county of Victoria. He there examined Captain George Livingstone, Captain Roderick McDonald, D. J. Morrison and H. G. McKay, Roderick Bain and Roderick McLeod. These investigations were held between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. Under the Order in Council Mr. Duchemin would be entitled to $15 for the afternoon's services, besides his travelling expenses, etc. But I find that he submitted to the department six different bills with a full charge in every one of the bills, charging for that afternoon $128.95, while $20 would be about what he was entitled to. The items of the accounts, six of which are exactly alike, are as follows:
To travel, issuing notices, subpoenas,
etc., conducting inquiries	..	..	$15.00" Allowance for living	expenses ....	2.50" Ferry fare	05" Horse hire	
1.00
" Paid for use of room for holding
inquiries	40
" Service of witnesses	 1.00

" Stenographer copying evidence and
reports	$135
" Stationery and postage	05

The account in McKay's case is as follows:
Allowance	 $15.00
Living allowance	 3.00
Witnesses, typewriting	 5.40

These accounts cover the six cases that were tried upon the same day, totalling $128.95, whereas $21.20 would have been the proper charge. The men who were investigated and finally dismissed were my political friends, and I was keeping tab on this inquiry. I knew the day on which it was to be held, but to make absolutely sure I wrote to Captain McDonald asking him about this investigation. He writes me from Bras d'Or on the 10th March, 1913, as follows:
Big Bras d'Or, Cape Breton,
March 10, 1913.
D. D. McKenzie, M.P.,
Ottawa, Canada.
My dear friend,-Yours to hand of the 8th instant, and in reply would say you were quite correct as to the date of the investigation. It was held on September 6 at three o'clock p.m., the whole being done between three and six o'clock p.m. The names of the parties who were investigated are as follows:	George Livingston, sub-collector; Rod. McDonald, preventive officer; Rory Bain, D. J. Morrison, and Rod. McLeod, boatmen; and H. C. McRay, light-keeper, Bird Island.
All those were investigated on the one afternoon at the time before mentioned.
That is the evidence I have. There is not the slightest doubt in the world about the facts being as I have stated. I submit that it is a matter of inquiry for the Government to know how its officials are conducting their business. The Order in Council appointing Mr. Duchemin allowed him a salary of $15 a day for any one day that he was out in the service of the Government, exclusive of incidentals. How is it then that he sends in a bill to the Government for $128.95, and further, how is it that the Government without any investigation paid that amount? Practically all the evidence shows that these inquiries were held on the same day, and it is strange that a business Government, as this one professes to be, did not inquire as to why these six inquiries taking place on the same day should be paid for six times. As this man Duche-man is a preacher of righteousness in many ways that I have already enumerated, it strikes one more strangely that any irregu-

laxity of this kind should be connected with him, and I think the people who read his paper, and those to whom he preaches from day to day, and those whom he addresses on the hustings should know exactly the manner in which this man deals with private and public business, and particularly public business, when it is a question of settling accounts between himself and the Government. This matter, being in my county, came very strongly before me, and without any desire of making an attack on Mr. Duchemin, I felt it my duty to warn the Government against impositions of this kind. I thought I might well bring this matter to the notice of the Government when the Estimates of my hon. friend were up.


Robert Rogers: My hon. friend has
brought up rather an important matter. He speaks of Duchemin as preaching a certain doctrine, but he does not say what church he preaches in.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I can assure my hon. friend that it is a Tory church every time.


Robert Rogers: My hon. friend asks how it is possible that Mr. Duchemin could send in such a Bill as the one he has detailed. My hon. friend complains mostly of overcharges, hut when he gets down to an-item of which he has personal knowledge he admits that Duchemin only charged this country half of what the hon. member personally knows it must have cost him. If the other items are of that nature, there is not much fault to find with Mr. Duchemin. My hon. friend also finds fault with the Government for having paid the account rendered by Duchemin. The case presented to the committee by my hon. friend from North Cape Breton is a strong one, and if bills such as he has described have been paid it is not the fault of the Government but of the Auditor General. I shall be glad to draw the attention of the Auditor General to what my hon. friend has said with a view to correcting as far as possible any mistakes that have been made.
iM.r. McKENZIE:	The information I
have given to the committee is all taken from returns brought down in this House.


William Chisholm: I have had a number of returns brought down showing the expenses of Duchemin. I have tried to wade through them but have not been so successful as the hon. member 330}
for North Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie). The accounts seem to overlap, and it is almost impossible to tell just how they stand, but I happen to have some personal knowledge of some of the investigations Duchemin conducted. In a return brought down on March 5, 1914, Reference No. 273, I find .a detailed statement setting forth that Duchemin investigated ten persons in Antigonish county-sectiotnimen on the Intercolonial. Perhaps hon. gentlemen will be surprised that there are ten sectionmen in the county of Antigonish. This strictly non-partisan railway management only dismissed two out of every three of the section men in my county. These ten investigations took place on the 3rd, 4th, 7th, ftth and 14th of May-five days in all.
There were five days on which these investigations were conducted. He has charged $210.47 and his expenses bring the total up to $261.25. Allowing him for five days' service-and the return shows that that is all the time that he put on these investigations, the dates being given for each of the different officers investigated-he should receive only about $105. I notice that in some of the returns he has charged for investigating Alexander McDonald, $22.50. On the same day that he investigated Alexander McDonald he investigated four others at Arisaig, and I suppose he has put down the same amount, $22.50, against each one of these. There is certainly enough to arouse suspicion of the gravest kind, and I am thoroughly convinced that this innocent Mr. Duchemin padded his account. If an investigation were held I have not the slightest doubt but that it would be shown that the charges that were made by my hon. friend from North Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) are correct. I think it would be well for the Government to have a thorough investigation of this matter to get some of their officials after the House prorogues, to go into these accounts thoroughly and see whether there has been overlappng and padding. I have not the slightest doubt that he has been paid three, times over for the service that he has rendered to the Government.


Robert Rogers: If Mr. Duchemin has
been guilty of overlapping his accounts, then, undoubtedly, the Auditor General is at fault in not detecting it. The information which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Chisholm) supplied the House will be taken notice of by the Auditor General, the matter will be looked into, and if any over-

lapping has taken place it will no doubt be corrected.


William Chisholm: Of course he may be innocent, but it looks to me as if he were not.


Mr. MACNUTT:: I wish to draw the attention of the hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) to what I consider an omission in regard to the expenditure of public money at the town of Melville, Sask. This matter was brought to the attention of the minister by myself in a letter dated April 7, 1913, in which I pointed out to him that the accommodation for the post office was entirely too small for the business done at Melville and asked him to look into the question of erecting a public building at that place. In reply I received a letter from the minister to the effect that the matter would be considered. Not seeing anything in the .Estimates this year, I asked a number of questions and moved for a return of the correspondence. There is a considerable amount of it, but I will only read one letter. It is as follows:
Melville, Sask., October 12, 1912. The Hon. L. P. Pelletier,
Postmaster General,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir: We respectfully beg to draw your attention to the urgent need of a Government post office building in Melville. This town has now a population of about 3,000 people and serves a very large territory. The increase of the past year has been so great that the present postmaster has had to enlarge the office .space until all the available space in the present building is now taken up. Besides, the building mow in use is owned by the local organizer of the Liberal party and there is not another "building available in Melville suitable for the purpose. It seems imperative that a Government building should be erected at as early a date as possible and we would urgently request that the matter be brought forward in the Estimates at the coming session of the House.
Very respectfully yours,
(Sgd) George Balfour, James Nixon.
Mr. Nixon was the defeated Conservative candidate. This goes to show, at all events, that attention was drawn to the necessity of providing a new public building at this important centre as far (back as October 12, 1912. But nothing has appeared in the Estimates this year for the erection of a building there. While no provision has been made for Melville, moneys have been voted for much smaller places. For instance, Kindersley, Sask., appears in the Estimates as follows:	Revote, $3,000;
1913-14, $10,000; 1914-15, 20,000. This is a town having a population of something like 
1,200. Wadena appears as follows: Revote, $10,000;	1913-14, $10,000;	1914-15, $20,000.
This is a small place having a population of between 500 and 600. It is a good little town, but it is difficult to realize that there is a necessity for an expenditure under the head of ' Public Buildings '. In the smaller places it is much cheaper to rent accommodation for the post office than to erect a monument in the form of a large public building, the greater part of which cannot be used. On the other hand, in larger places, such, for instance, as Melville, which have a future before them, a different policy is advisable. You cannot get private individuals to erect suitable buildings unless they are sure of their being continuously occupied and therefore, I submit, that the Government should erect a building in Melville suitable for the purposes of the post office and any other uses to which they may require to put it.
Now, I desire to place before the committee a few particulars illustrating the growth and importance of Melville. I do not understand what reason there can be for leaving Melville out in the cold as it is an important divisional and junctional point of the Grand Trunk Pacific and has a splendid future before it. It is a growing town. The population is now about 3,300 and the present post office is entirely inadequate for the transaction of the business there. If it is necessary to erect a public building at Wadena, surely it is more necessary in the case of a town like Melville with its growing population and fine prospects. Trains pass in and out in four different directions and there are several trains a day. The people of Melville have taxed themselves pretty heavily for city improvements showing that they have faith in the future of their town. In round numbers, they have built a town hall costing $60,000; a civic rink, $15,000; hospital, $20,000; waterworks, $80,000; electric light equipment, $60,000; street improvements, $30,000; made appropriation for sewage for 1914, $50,000; three large schools, $60,000; and one under way $20,000. In this connection, I might say that although the population of Melville requires four large schools, there is not a single child born in the town of Melville that is yet of school age, which is an example of the rapid growth of this town. A Lutheran college has been erected at the cost of $20,000 and a co-operative creamery is under way; it is expected that the projected sewage system will cost a quarter of a million dollars. Being a railway town, the

Grand Trunk Pacific has a pay roll of from $20,000 to $55,000 per month. Under these circumstances, what action has the Department of Public Works taken, or what action does it propose to take, and what reply has been made to the communications on this subject which have been addressed to the department? Here is a town of some considerable size and business importance and certainly a rented building is not sufficient to carry on the business of the post office properly. I would have thought this case would have demanded and received the attention of the department and that as a result provision would have been made for a suitable public building at Melville. If the Government had no money available it would be different, but there appears to be plenty of money for this purpose when we see a public building being erected at a cost of about $20,000 at a place like Wadena with a population of 500 or 600. I consider it my duty to bring this matter to the attention of the minister and I hope that he will rectify this omission as soon as possible.


Robert Rogers: In answer to my hon.
friend from Saltcoats (Mr. MacNutt). I would say that I quite agree with almost all he has stated in respect to the value and importance of the town of Melville. It is true, as he states, that we have omissions in connection with the erection of public buildings at various points. There undoubtedly are many omissions and they are being corrected	as	rapidly	as	itis possible for	us	to correct	them.I think I can claim that, so far as Western Canada	is	concerned,	in	theEstimates this year we are doing the best we can for public buildings at various points. As my hon. friend well knows, it is impossible to	cover them all	in	one
year. I realize that there are few places in the province of Saskatchewan that are more entitled to have a public building than the town of Melville, which is one of the most prosperous towns in the province. My hon. friend can depend upon it that he will have in me a good friend when the time and opportunity presents itself to erect a building there. I will take the earliest opportunity I possibly can to meet the wishes of my hon. friend in that respect.


Alphonse Verville: I wish to know why Mr. Parent, assistant engineer in the Department of Public Works at Montreal, has been dismissed, and if a report was made against him, verbally or in writing.
I put this question before in the House, and the answer given me was that his services were no longer required. There were engineers younger than he in the department, and, if it was a question of laying off some of them, he should have been kept on, because he was one of the oldest in the service. Mr. Parent was formerly on the Georgian Bay canal, and some years ago I recommended him for the service of the department in Montreal, and, therefore, I take a special interest in him. As the deputy minister and chief engineer are present, I hope the minister will be able to give me this information.


Robert Rogers: I am not very well versed in the details of this case, but I do know that I have had very pressing requests from some of Mr. Parent's friends to reinstate him, especially from Mr. T'arte, who seems to take a very special and anxious interest in him. I am not at the moment in a position to state the exact circumstances of his dismissal, but I shall have the matter inquired into. I would be sorry, indeed, to do an injustice to Mr. Parent, if an injustice has been done. I will let my hon. friend (Mr. Verville) know what conclusion has been come to.


Alphonse Verville: I think I know why Mr. Parent has been dismissed better than does the minister. A report was made against Mr. Parent, I am not sure whether verbally or in writing. The fact is that I asked him for some information which he refused to give me, but it was thought that he did give me the information, and so he was dismissed. That was absolutely unfair. I state, on my responsibility as a member of the House, that there is no truth in the allegation. If there is any member in the House, as 1 believe there is, who pressed on the department to have Mr. Parent dismissed, I tell him that it was unjust and unfair to Mr. Parent. I take the full responsibility of saying that Mr. Parent would not give me the information I asked for, and, because he was supposed to have given it to me, he was punished.
Telegraph lines-Construction of lines from Athabaska Landing to Fort McMurray; to complete, $45,000.


Frank Oliver: In what condition is this telegraph line now?


Robert Rogers: This amount of $45,000 is asked for by General Superintendent Keeley to complete the construction of a

telegraph or telephone line from Athabaska Landing to Fort McMurray.
Estimated cost-Required for constructim to end of above clearance, 41 miles at $150, $6,000; required for the further construction at $150 and lighter clearance at lowei average of $94 per mile, or together 160 miles at $244 per mile, $39,000, required for 1914-15, $45,000. The total length of the line consists as follows: Athabaska Landing (west side) to Calling river, 38 miles; to Pelican rapids, 80 miles; to House river, 40 miles; to Fort McMurray, 100 miles; total, 258 miles.
The work already done on the construction of this line is as follows: On 29th August, 1913, Superintendent R. C. Macdonald reports 57 miles of line built; outlay to date, $26,000.
On 6th November, 1913, E. D. Currier, (superintendent) reports end of Clearance 20 miles south of Pelican rapids included in above outlay, 41 miles. Construction: 57 miles at $150, say $8,500; clearance, taking balance of expenditure, $17,500; expenditure to end 1913-14, $26,000.
General Superintendent Keeley in a report dated 14th January, 1914, states that the vote for 1913-14 was applied for in continuance of the original estimate on the basis of $150 per mile. Subsequent information showed this to be altogether inadequate, because of there being no roadway clearance through the heavily timbered country. The reports herewith from the engineer in charge of construction, Mr. E. D. Currier, 6th November, 1913, and the district superintendent, Mr. R. C. Macdonald, 29th August, 1913, call lor the further sum of $45,000.
Commencing at Athabaska Landing the line would run northeasterly to Lac La-Biche. a distance of about 60 miles. There would be no difficulties encountered' in building over this section. From Lac La-Biche to House river a distance of about 100 miles is in places heavily timbered, ti** balance being covered by trees of smaller size, excepting for some small muskegs, which would offer no obstruction to building. From House river to Fort McMurray, about 90 miles, the country has been burned over leaving a large quantity of fallen timber overgrown with small second growth poplar. There is also a muskeg extending about 12 miles in this stretch.
Tamarac poles could be secured at various points along the route, and it is probable there would be no long hauls. The country is not' yet surveyed, but is reported to be well fitted for agricultural purposes; the

muskegs being of such nature that they can be easily drained. The length of the line would be approximately 258 miles. The entire absence of roads or trails north of Lac LaBiche will greatly enhance the cost of transporting material and supplies. A portion of these would have to be sent to Fort McMurray by boat and then freighted south.
(1)	The Athabaska river along which the course of the line is projected is navigable for 176 miles from Athabaska Landing to a point named Old House whence there is a trail through the woods to Fort McMurray, a distance of some 30 miles. The country to be traversed is wooded for most part hence whatever poles are required for the wire suspension will be readily obtainable.
(2)	There is a trading post at Pelican river about midway between Athabaska Landing and Fort McMurray where an office would likely serve a useful purpose. The main point of prospective traffic is however Fort McMurray itself, where there are agencies of several trading companies and some operations going on in connection with an immense asphaltum deposit and some petroleum ventures. It is also the distributing point of the Hudson Bay Company for the whole northern district and is the centre to which the entire business of the north converges.
From all of the foregoing it appears a very useful purpose would be served by the telegraph line, which could be constructed at a moderate cost and be as likely as any other in outlying districts to develop a considerable traffic, the revenue from which would materially offset the cost of maintenance.


Frank Oliver: In regard to this I think the minister should be made aware of the fact that the work on this line has not been prosecuted in a way that is at all creditable to the department. There was a vote standing in the Estimates of 1911 when this Government came into office, so that they have had the summers of 1912 and 1913, or two years of work. I understand, however, that the line is not yet completed as far as Pelican Rapids. While the progress on the line has been very slight, the expenditure has been very large.


Robert Rogers: Only $26,000 has been
spent up to date.


Frank Oliver: I think that is an abnormal amount for the length of line that has been built.


Robert Rogers: A hundred miles.


Frank Oliver: In regard to this matter I am not blaming the minister or the department except for the fact that they must have a thoroughly incompetent man in charge of the work, because otherwise the work would have been prosecuted more successfully in the time that has been available. While it is perhaps a matter with which I need not concern myself particularly, I think it, is only fair that the minister should be made aware of Che fact that a large amount of money has been expended and a very small amount of result has been achieved. There is no reason in the world why a line of 258 miles long, running alongside a navigable river for the whole distance, a river on which navigation is being carried on all the time, should take more than two years to complete. As a matter of fact, at the rate that the work has been going on so far, it will 'take more than two years more to complete the 258 miles of line.


Robert Rogers: 118 miles have already
been constructed at a cost of about $200 a mile. I do not think that is a very excessive cost for the construction of a line of telegraph in a far off country such as that.
I quite agree with my hon. friend in respect to the matter of pressing the work on, because it is above all things desirable to give the people in these outlying districts the advantage and convenience of a telegraph system. I can assure my hon. friend that we shall endeavour to hurry the work forward as rapidly as possible with a view to getting this line completed to Fort McMurray, because I am fully alive to the desirability and value and necessity of such a line, particularly in view of the great trading and the developjnent of the country north and west of Fort McMurray, because as my hon. friend knows, this is practically the gateway of the great empire north of that point. In my opinion, it is the duty of the Government to see that telegraphic connection is made with Fort McMurray as rapidly as possible.


Frank Oliver: The people were very
much disappointed that this line did not reach Fort McMurray last year, and they will be very seriously disappointed if it does not get to Fort McMurray this year. Is it to be a telegraph line or a telephone line, or both? .


Robert Rogers: A telegraph line.


Frank Oliver: I would like to suggest, if it is to be a telegraph line or a telephone line, that there should be an office at Pelican rapids and another at House river.


Robert Rogers: We are bound to have an office at each of those places.


Frank Oliver: House river is about eight miles above the head of Grand rapids. I suggested to the minister last year that there should be a loop carried
10	p.m. down the river beyond House river to the head of Grand rapids, so that the transfer of freight and the change of navigation that necessarily occurs at the head of Grand rapids would be in immediate touch with telegraphic communication. It would be a pity, in view of the desirability of quick telegraphic communication from the head of Grand rapids, that the telegraph office, When the line is constructed, should be eight miles away. That difficulty could be obviated by running a loop down to Grand rapids and putting an office at that point instead of House river, which is eight miles further down. It would be carrying the wires down that far and back again. Of course it would be very nice to have an office at each place; but as they are so close together, I am not asking that there should be an office at each place; and as between the two, I think an office at Grand Rapids would serve the more necessary and useful purpose.


Robert Rogers: I quite agree with my hon. friend that we certainly should have connection with Grand rapids with our line if we are passing in the vicinity at all. The deputy has taken a note of the matter, and we will look into it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I wish to refer to a matter that is not on the Estimates at all. I want the minister to consider himself for a moment as a court of appeal. I am going to appeal to him from his own officials. His officials will not be alarmed when they hear that their decision was in favour of the department. I suppose that they always feel safe in deciding in favour of the department as against an outside
man.	This is a small matter; but I was turned down by the officials of the department, and I never feel willing to lie down until after the last gasp.
A wharf was built at Cap Rouge in the county of Inverness last year. The contract was given, after tenders being called, to constituents of mine in North Sydney,

the name of the firm being ' Musgrave and Musgrave.' They completed the wharf and handed in the final returns to the office of the department at North Sydney, which is under the supervision of Mr. Bernas-coni. When they finished their work, as I am instructed, they handed in the final returns, and the work was accepted as completed. I want to be absolutely fair as far as the facts are concerned; if I am wrong it is not my fault. Mr. Bernasconi took the work off their hands and sent the return to the head office at Ottawa as fully completed. But between the time of the handing in of this return at North Sydney and its transmission to the head office, a storm came on and some damage was done to the work. The department insisted upon the contractors refinishing the work, which cost them an additional outlay of $150. The contract was rather severe, and I understand there has been some change since and more latitude is left to the department, so that it need not be so very rigid. When this official at North Sydney received this work as completed that ought to have been the end of it, and any damage that occurred after that should be the loss of the Government. It was only a small contract, and I think that the extra amount that wais expended would be about the measure of the profit made. I am appealing from the decision of my good friend the chief engineer, whom I know well, and who is always a good honest man., but stringent in favour of the department every time. I am appealing from him to the head of the department, who is limitless in his power, and who does not hold himself responsible to anybody but the Lord,
I suppose, and I ask the minister to take this matter into consideration and if he finds that in equity and fairness this was an act of Providence, over which these contractors had no control, he will conclude that as a matter of equity, they are entitled to the amount they claim, although under the strict letter of the contract it could be withheld. They have some other grounds, which I do not understand, but I have put the facts before the minister as accurately as I can.


Robert Rogers: I am sorry that my hon. friend should feel that he has been turned down, and, of course, if his case is as good and as clear as he appears to be able to state it, he can depend upon it we w;li see that he is turned up. We will take

note of what my hon. friend has said. It is probably true that before the engineer on the ground, who took over the work at the time, had transmitted the estimate to the head office, a storm took place and did the damage. Therefore it was not approved at head office. However, if the circumstances turn out to be as my hon. frienti states-and I presume that they are-we will undertake to see that the matter is dealt with in an equitable manner and endeavour to meet the views of my hon. friend.


Frank Oliver: In the absence of the hon. member for Battleford (Mr. Champagne) I would like to ask what is the position of the Battleford-Isle LaCrosse line. There is a revote of $9,000. I would like to have an idea how far that work has been carried and how soon it is likely to be completed to Isle LaCrosse.


Robert Rogers: The total distance, as nearly as can be ascertained, is 250 miles. From Battleford to Meadow lake, one hundred and fifteen miles, a straight road, has been constructed by the provincial Government along which our line could be built. From Meadow lake to Green lake, a turther distance of thirty-five miles, a road is now being cut out and should be ready by the time our line could be built to that point. From Green lake to Isle LaCrosse there is a cart trail following in a general way the course of the Beaver river. Between Battleford and Midnight lake, fifty-six miles, there is no timber suitable for poles. These would have to be drawn south from Midnight lake. Standard tamarac poles over this fifty-six miles, would cost delivered along the road $2.50 each. From Midnight lake northward no difficulty would be experienced in securing poles, the cost of which should not exceed $1.50 each, possibly less. There being an established trail, the cost of freighting will be less than through an unbroken country. To accommodate the various settlements, stations should be established at Jackfish Lake, twenty-five miles; Staslyn, forty-five miles; Meadow Lake, one hundred and fifteen miles; Green Lake, one hundred and forty-five miles, these distances being computed from Battleford. Between Green lake and Isle LaCrosse, at least one station would be necessary. At all these points there are already large settlements. The vote of $9,000 is asked for by the district superintendent for the purpose of completing the telegraph line from Battleford to Isle La-

Crosse. Does that cover what my hon. friend requires ?


Frank Oliver: Will the $9,000 complete ?


Robert Rogers: That is the expectation.


Frank Oliver: But my hon. friend has not said how far the line is already built. He has given a description of the road.


Robert Rogers: There is about forty-five miles to complete, out of two hundred and fifty miles.


Frank Oliver: In regard to the telegraph office at Dunvegan, for which there is a revote of $3,500, will the building accommodate anything more than the telegraph office ?


Robert Rogers: This is on the same lines as the building we are erecting at Grouard. It will accommodate a telegraph office, and there will be a certain amount of room for the operator, who will live there, and for any other public business.


Frank Oliver: It is a dwelling-house as well as an office ?


Robert Rogers: Yes.


Frank Oliver: I notice an item 'Peace River-Grand Prairie Telegraph Line-extension from Lake Saskatoon to Hudson's Hope, B. C., $41,000.' I am not going to find any fault with the department for running the line from Saskatoon to Hudson's Hope; but my information in regard to that country is that they are running the line by a very roundabout way, and over a comparatively difficult country. The telegraph line runs south from Dunvegan to Saskatoon lake, I understand, some fifty or sixty miles. The Government propose that this line, [DOT]after running south between the$e two places, shall run northwesterly from Saskatoon lake to Hudson's Hope, through a country more or less wooded and not very much opened up. On the other hand, if the line left Dunvegan and followed the cart trail all the way to Hudson's Hope on the north side, there would be comparatively no difficulty in the way of clearing or having access to the line because there is a cart trail all the way. I am astonished at this route being taken but possibly there may be some good reason for it. I should think that the natural route to take would be the direct one by Dunvegan, instead of this circuitous route.


Robert Rogers: It is evident from the report that we are taking the circuitous route
because we are following the settlement and endeavouring to meet the public requirements. It is true that probably the line is not as direct as it might be^ but it is following the localities in which there is settlement. The British Columbia Government are also pressing for this [DOT]route. Of course, my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) has the advantage of having personal knowledge of this country which very few of us have, and in view of what he has said we shall certainly be glad to look into it again.


Frank Oliver: I am not objecting, I just wondered why the line is being constructed in that way. I am very pleased to see the Government constructing the line to Hudson's Hope. It is at the head of navigation on the Peace river, it is in British 'Columbia and it is very desirable to have connection with that place by telegraph.
Post Office-Outside Service-Mail service, $6,534,805.50.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I asked my hon. friend yesterday to bring down a few facts and data as regards the rural mail delivery. I would like to know first how the service stands by provinces. I know that Ontario 'has been quite responsible in this matter and I believe that in New Brunswick and the West there has been a demand for the establishment of rural mail routes. I know that these rural mail delivery routes will be highly beneficial to the people and therefore, I would be very pleased if my hon. friend could see his way clear to stimulating our own people in Quebec. There I know that the circumstances are *somewhat different. The farmers generally congregate on Sundays at the church door and the post office is open during an hour or so after divine service and the mail is distributed there. But all this is a matter of education. The farmer of Quebec would be responsive to this system if he understood the great benefits to be derived by the distribution of literature on farming and also by having a daily paper.
Perhaps it would be well for the officers of my hon. friend's department to inform the people in our province of the advantages of that service. Some routes have been opened up in the eastern townships of Quebec and the people are very pleased with the system. I know that farmers in one or two places in my own county petitioned for the opening of rural mail routes which have since been granted. That 'shows that

some interest is being taken in the matter by our farmers. I think the minister should carry on a campaign of education as to the advantages of rural mail delivery so that the system 'would not be confined to one or two provinces as it is at present.
I come now to the question of cable rates. My hon. friend knows what interest those of us who have been journalists take in this matter. Not very long ago Sir John Willison, the correspondent of the London Times, wrote a series of articles for his newspaper which have been reproduced in all of the overseas dominions pointing out the danger of the Americanization of the press of this countrj. There is no doubt that our press is more or less inspired by the news collecting agencies of the United States. If we are in danger of Americanization it is not so much from the introduction of American sports but from the transmission of telegraphic despatches to our newspapers through American channels. Be that as it may, it is certain that if we had cheaper cable rates we could obtain a better mews service from the British Isles. In this connection, I wish to again call the attention of my hon. friend to the British magazine post which I succeeded in establishing in 1906. Previous to that time, we had received a mere few thousand pounds of British magazines and newspapers each year, but after the arrangement of 1906 between the Post Office Departments of Canada and Great Britain our consumption of British magazines and papers increased to 600,000 pounds a year, and our British settlers in the Northwest Territories, and in fact all over Canada, were enabled to keep in touch with home. The circulation of English papers and magazines in this country helps to develop a spirit of fraternity between Canada and the old land, and it would be a thousand pities if because of a little difference between the two post office departments, the British magazine post were to be done away with. I sincerely hope that my hon. friend will do his best to continue the arrangement made in 1906. The other day I was reading in the Monthly Circular, Empire Press Union, a letter, dated August 9, 1913, to the News-Advertiser, Vancouver, B.C., from M. A. C. Cummings, containing the following paragraph:
We have a cheap cable rate to Australia and the newspapers here, with one exception, have their own cable services from the Commonwealth. With Great Britain it is different.

Few of the Canadian journals can afford the cable tolls from London, consequently they depend almost entirely on British cantes as despatched by American correspondents in London to their newspapers in New York and Chicago. The results are sometimes amusing. We get intimate ' facts ' of the doings of Duchesses and ' quarrels ' In the Royal family, thinly-veiled jokes at the monarchy, and the popularity of the ' tango ' and ' turkey trot ' in London ballrooms, but we never hear a word of the doings of the Imperial Parliament-unless they interest Americans for the moment- or of the great developments, social and political, that are going on throughout England.
Another independent opinion was given in the same paper by Mr. M. E. Nichols of the new (Montreal Daily Mail. He says:
I hope the day is not far distant when the Canadian newspapers will co-operate to the extent of bringing a comprehensive cable service direct from Great Britain and spare the Canadian public the American made and American edited cable service upon which the Canadian Press is at present largely dependent.
I need not dwell any longer on this point, except to remind my hon. friend that last year he promised Parliament that he would be able to give this country much cheaper rates by reason of the establishment of the Poulsen wireless system. Perhaps my hon. friend would tell the committee what has been done with regard to that, and whether the Poulsen system will soon be in operation. Of course there may be a little exaggeration in the letters I have just read to the House. Undoubtedly such important papers as the Gazette of Montreal, the Globe, and the Mail and Empire of Toronto, the Ottawa Citizen, the Manitoba Free Press and a few others have an excellent news service, but these exceptions only prove the rule. The country press cannot get the best news because we have not a cheap cable service. When this matter was up in the House before, I expressed the opinion that the day was not far distant when Canada would have a state-owned cable on the Atlantic as well as on the Pacific. Undoubtedly the Pacific cable between Australia and Canada has done much to cheapen cable communication between the two countries. Perhaps the wireless system will attain to such a state of perfection that it will be an excellent substitute. My hon. friend the Postmaster General has a grand idea about this; he has been working for the last iwo years towards jthe establishment of the Poulsen wireless system.
Now, I desire to say a word or two about the parcel post system. We have discussed the parcel post system in this House on many occasions. It was agreed by hon.

member's on both sides that such a system was necessary: The parcel post system in the United States has proved a wonderful success. So successful has it been there, that the express companies have been put out of service. A few days ago I was reading an article published in the Canadian Courier which states:
Express companies in the United States have had a long and prosperous run, but parcel post has made a change. There are four chief companies, and their earnings ending June 30, 1912, were as follows :-
Gross	Net
Earnings. Income.
Adams Express Company	$34,191,955	$1,877,428American Express Company	
43,714,874	2,813,259
United States Express
Company	
21,131,508	233,228Wells-Fargo & Co. [DOT]. .	32,465,970	3,441,674
It will be noted that the weakest of these four companies is the United States Express Company. It is therefore not a great matter of surprise that this company has decided to go out of business. The late E. H. Harriman bought more than 22,000 shares of the company's stock from the Adams and American Express Companies, and his estate is said to hold close to one-half of the total issue of 100,000 shares. President Roberts states that the competition of parcel post, especially the increasing of the weight of a parcel to fifty pounds, has made competition from his company impossible. The order of the Interstate Commerce Commission, which entailed a lowering of rates to the extent of 16 per cent, was the final straw. The directors have therefore decided to wind up the affairs of the company and effect a dissolution.
In. Canada, I am sorry to say-and I do not want to injure the feelings of my hon. friend the Postmaster General-the parcel post so far has been more or lees of a gold brick. In itself it is an excellent thing, but I do not think that, broadly speaking, it has been a success. When it was discussed before' in this House, it was thought that the establishment of the parcel poet would be a means of reducing the high cost of living by bringing the consumer nearer to the producer and doing away with the middleman. That the parcel post will be of little use in affecting the cost of living will certainly be evident to any one who will study its provisions. Housewives who have visions of chickens and eggs coming in by parcel post might ae well abandon such expectation. Such things will have to be produced within twenty miles of the Montreal post office, because the parcel post rate beyond that distance is considerably in excess of the express rate. The Dominion Express Company, not longer than a month ago, issued a notice to its patrons and agents asking them to be generous to the parcel
post, and stating that it was not afraid of its competition. Therefore, we are in this position that, while in the United states the express companies go out of business because of the parcel post, in this country the express companies have asked their patrons and agents to encourage parcel poet, because they are not afraid of the competition. A criticism of the parcel post system has been made of late by an authority, Mr. A. W. Marble, president of the Merchants' Association of New York, who says that:
The limitations of the parcel post are these:
It does not provide a * pickup ' service.
It does not adequately provide for safety.
It does not provide adequate indemnity for loss.
It does not provide any indemnity for damage.
It excludes a wide range of commodities from quick transportation.
It prevents valuable packages from being securely closed.
It is obvious that unless all these limitations be removed the parcel post cannot effectively serve numerous imperative transportation needs.
However, we must, in spite of all this criticism, encourage my hon. friend in developing and expanding as much as possible the parcel post system in Canada. It is a good beginning, it can be improved upon, and my hon. friend, I know, is sufficiently alive to present conditions to understand that he must do something for his country and for the consumer. The trouble, according to some people who have made a study of this question, is that the rates of the express companies are less than those of the parcel post. I have here a little comparison which is self-evident:
' Six pound parcel Ottawa to Montreal by parcel post, 40 cents.'
' Six pound parcel Ottawa to Montreal by express, 35 cents.'
If this had been put under the American parcel post tariff, it would have read:
' Six pound parcel Ottawa to Montreal, 10 cents.'
' Eleven pound parcel Ottawa to Montreal parcel post, 70 cents.'
' Eleven pound parcel Ottawa to Montreal express, 40 cents.'
Had they also put this under the United States parcel post, it would have read:
' Eleven pound parcel Ottawa to Montreal 15 cents.'
However, I can understand that it is quite difficult the first year, when you enter into such a large contract, to achieve perfection, and that there are obstacles which must be faced and overcome. Other figures are equally interesting. >In the United States on July 25, 1913, nearly eight

months after the inauguration of the parcel post system, the weight within the first and second zones was increased from 11 lbs. to 20 lbs., and a corresponding cut in the rate was made. I quite agree that my hon. friend, a few months after the establishment of the parcel post system in Canada, made an increase in the weight from 6 to 11 lbs. in the first zone.


Mr. PELLETIER:: It was placed at six pounds at first, while we were getting ready for the service, but it was soon increased to eleven pounds


Rodolphe Lemieux: As the attached table,
which was presented to the House of Commons on June 4, 1913, by Hon. Mr. Pelletier, does not contain a comparison of the second zone rate in the United States, it is impossible to draw comparisons from that. I have, however, made a comparison of the distances which could be classified in the second zone rate in the United States, viz, Montreal to Sherbrooke (the second zone rate is from 50-150 miles), Sherbrooke being 108 miles from Montreal.
Montreal to	Sherbrooke (equal to in United States.)	second zoneWeight.	2nd zone rate	Canadianin United States.	Parcel Post.1 pound . .	.. $0 05	$0 102 pounds . .	.. 0 06	0 143 pounds ..	.. 0 07	0 184 pounds ..	.. 0 08	0 225 pounds . .	. . 0 09	0 266 pounds . .	.. 0 10	0 307 pounds . .	.. 0 11	0 34Weight.	2nd zone rate	Canadianin United States.	Parcel Post.8 pounds .	. .. 0 12	0 389 pounds .	. .. 0 13	0 4210 pounds .	. .. 0 14	0 4611 pounds .	. .. 0 15	0 5012 pounds .	. .. 0 16	13 pounds .	. .. 0 17	14 pounds .	. .. 0 18	15 pounds .	. .. 0 19	16 pounds .	. .. 0 20	17 pounds .	. .. 0 21	18 pounds .	. . . 0 22	19 pounds .	. .. 0 23	20 pounds .	. .. 0 24	
Following this table giving the comparative rates it should be stated that the same rates which apply between Toronto and Vancouver also apply to parcels going to United Kingdom, Trinidad, Mexico, New Zealand, St. Vincent (West Indies), and British Guiana.
More glaring than these are the rates to France, Germany, Japan and Hong Kong. For your information I append herewith another statement which shows the comparison of these rates and the approximate distances in each case. For the purpose of this comparison I have taken Toronto as the centre. I have made a study of this matter, which I have elaborated in this table, which with the permission of the committee I shall send to ' Hansard,' so that it may appear for the information of hon. gentlemen.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Very well.


Rodolphe Lemieux: This table illustrates
my contention.
Canadian Parcel Post.
From Toronto, Ontario to	Distance in Miles.	1 lb.	2 lbs.	3 lbs.	4 lbs.	5 lbs.	6 lbs.	7 lbs.	8 lbs.	9 lbs.	10 lbs.	11 lbs.S cts.	8 cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	S cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.Quebec	540	0 10	0 16	0 22	0 28	0 34	0 40	0 46	0 52	0 58	0 64	0 70St. John	832	0 12	0 20	0 28	0 36	0 44	0 52	0 60	0 68	0 76	0 84	0 92Halifax	1,100	0 12	0 20	0 28	0 36	0 48	0 52	0 60	0 68	0 76	0 84	0 92Winnipeg	1,200	0 10	0 16	0 22	0 28	0 34	0 40	0 46	0 52	0 58	0 64	0 70Regina	1,600	0 12	0 20	0 28	0 36	0 44	0 52	0 60	0 68	0 76	0 84	0 92Calgary	2.050	0 12	0 24	0 34	0 44	0 54	0 64	0 74	0 84	0 94	1 04	1 14Vancouver	2,700	0 12	0 24	0 36	0 48	0 60	0 72	0 84	0 96	1 08	1 20	1 32France	3,500	0 18	0 26	0 34	0 42	0 50	0 58	0 66	0 74	0 82	0 90	0 98Germany*	3,600	0 32	0 40	0 48	0 64	0 72	0 80	0 88	1 02	1 10	1 18	1 26Japan*	7,400	0 20	0 40	0 60	0 80	1 00	1 20	1 40	Hong Kong	10,000	0 16	0 28	0 40	0 52	0 64	0 76	0 88	1 00	1 12	1 24	1 36
*With some prohibitions. 

Comparing Canada's system with United States we find the following, using Ottawa as a centre:
Zones in United States.
Zones in Canada.
1st	Zone,	1	to	50 miles .2nd Zone,	50	to	150 " . .3rd	Zone,	150	to	300 " ..4 th	Zone,	300	to	600 " ..5th	Zone,	600	to	1,000 " . .6th	Zone,	1,000	to	1,400 " . .7 th	Zone,	1,400	to	1,800 " . .8 th	Zone,	over	1,800 " . .
The calculation I have made shows that it is cheaper to send a parcel from Canada to Hong Kong, Japan, China, and the lands of the far East, than it is to send the same weight of parcel within the borders of our own country. The whole thing shows that the Postmaster General has a big task before him and that he should apply his activities as much as possible towards the adjusting of this system. I hope that during 'the coming year the parcel post will become of more use to consumers and patrons generally than it appears to have been this year. I trust the Postmaster General will take my Temarks in the proper spirit and that he will apply himself to the difficult task of readjusting the rates, the weights, and the zones, in order that the people of Canada .may get the full benefit of this most excellent system which has been such a huge success in the United States and other countries. I do not see why Canada should not have the same success with the parcel post system as other countries have if the Postmaster General will apply himself to the readjustment of the tariffs, the zones, and the rates.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I shall answer my
hon. friend's questions in the order in which he referred to them. The information as to the rural mail system I shall give by provinces. There are in the province of Ontario, 73,177 boxes; in Quebec, 7,093 boxes; in Prince Edward Island, 5,641 boxes; in New Brunswick, 3,984 boxes; in Nova iScotia, 2,016 boxes; in British Columbia, 1,844 boxes; in Manitoba, 693 boxes; in Saskatchewan, 531 boxes; in Alberta, 572 boxes, or a total of 95,551 boxes. This relst Zone, 20 miles.
2nd Zone, (Ontario) 60 miles East to 560 West to Windsor.
3rd Zone, (Quebec or Manitoba) 350 miles E. to 1.500 miles W.
4th Zone, (Saskatchewan or Maritime provinces) 900 miles E. to 2,000 miles W.
5th Zone, (Alberta) 2,000 miles W. to 2,400 miles W.
6th Zone, (British Columbia) 2,400 miles W. to 2,900 miles W.
turn is up to the month of May but other boxes have been installed since and probably the present number would be 100,000. I am glad to say that the Tural mail service is making great headway in the province of Quebec now.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The eastern townships?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Yes, and elsewhere.
There are counties like St. John-Iberville, for example, which are covered with mail boxes. In my own county I am happy to say the people are now adopting the system. The knowledge of the advantages of the rural mail delivery is spread not so much by literature as by personal canvass and by explaining the advantages that it brings to the people. I have asked several of the members of the House to become apostles of the Tural mail service in their counties, and I have succeeded very well. We are receiving returns which show that a large number of boxes will be installed in the province of Quebec in a few months.
My hon. friend referred to the question of cable rates and asked me where we stood on the Poulsen contract, which is a very interesting question. The installations both at Ballybunion on the coast of Ireland and at Newcastle in New Brunswick are almost completed. They would have been completed by the first of this month, had it not been for the fact that a serious accident took place which has delayed the final installation of one of these stations. I have received word that this accident may cause a delay of one or two months. We do not propose to go into the question of

a new Atlantic cable until we have seen the result of this installation. The home Government have represented to us that they will not join with Canada, New Zealand and Australia in regard to the question of an Atlantic cable until we all know more about the very extraordinary progress which wireless telegraphy is making throughout the world. In the first place, they have represented to us that two cables will have to be laid in order to have a complete and safe service. In the second place they say: We may have gone to very great expense in laying two or three cables and then find that in the end we might have had as good if not better service by wireless. I did my best when I was over in England to get them to join in that proposition, with the result that protracted negotiations were entered into. When we know more about wireless telegraphy, we may have to go into the cable question again; but for the moment, we are not disposed to look into it any more until we know what wireless will give us.
As regards the question of the British magazines to which my hon. friend has referred, I am not going to budge one inch from the position I have taken in regard to this matter. I am sure I am right. We have been giving for seven years free transportation for British magazines; and whilst we were doing that all the way from Liverpool to Vancouver, the British Government were collecting one penny for the transportation of these magazines for a distance of 220 miles from London to Liverpool. Is it reasonable to ask Canada again to enter into such an arrangement? It does not appeal to me as a business proposition, and I am not going to assent to it. I have made a very fair proposition to the British Government, and I think it will be accepted. I have asked that one-half of that penny should come to Canada for transporting the British magazines a distance of five or six thousand miles, and that the British Government should keep the other half for transporting the magazines a distance of 220 miles. If that is not fair, I do not know what fairness is. Canada should certainly get something for the transportation of these British magazines. At that rate the British magazines will again have a good deal of preference over the American magazines, which is just what we want; but we ask the British post office to share with us the revenue which it is receiving. I have lately received a letter from the Brit-

ish Postmaster General informing me that he thinks we will be able to arrange the matter. Therefore I see with a good deal of pleasure that he is not being too much encouraged by the stand which my hon. friend took some time ago on the floor of the House, when he practically told the British Postmaster General that he should not assent to our proposition. I do not see why Canada should bear the whole burden in this respect, and get nothing for doing so. If my hon. friend the member for Rouville does not see it 11 p.m, in that light, I fail to understand from what angle he looks at the question, or what other reason he has for coming to the conclusion that the British post office, which is much richer than ours, should get the whole benefit from the carrying of the magazines and that we should get nothing. I have very often asked myself by what method of reasoning my hon. friend has come to that conclusion, and I am still at a loss to understand it.
In regard to parcel post, my hon. friend has criticised this in a mild way, and I might say, in a fair way. He has been much fairer in regard to parcel post than the newspapers throughout the country belonging to his party have been. There has been throughout this country an organized war against parcel post. I do not know why this should have happened; but I have collected articles published in all the weekly Liberal papers in Canada, and they are exactly the same, word for word.


Rodolphe Lemieux: There is the same feeling throughout the country.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: And the same feeling is expressed in the same words. It is a most extraordinary thing. It is a regular war against parcel post. The hon. member for Rouville, who occupies a responsible position, has told u-s to-night that parcel post is a good thing and should be encouraged; yet these papers, one after another, tell us that it is an awful thing. I am not going to read these articles to the House; I will keep them as souvenirs. On a question like this-there is nothing in it for me-I think both parties might unite and try to make a success of it. I suppose my hon. friend will be happy to hear that this regular campaign in the press against parcel post has had its effect,

but nut to the extent which I suppose those people who wrote these articles might have wished. Our parcel post system is in fair shape; it is working well; it is developing steadily, even while receiving all these black eyes and while probably a good many Liberals in the country, after reading these articles, must have said to themselves: Let us not use the parcel post because a Tory Government has inaugurated it. Sometimes when I have asked people as to how the parcel post system is working in their districts, they have said: Well, in our district the majority are Liberals and they are not going to use parcel post, because the papers have said it should not be used. That shows that this campaign has had its effect. Is it a noble effect? Is it something that ought to be encouraged? I am not going to discuss this question to-night, because, for one thing, it is too late in the session, and, moreover, I do not think it should be discussed at all. It is obviously an anti-Canadian stand. It has not had the success it might have had, and I hope
it will not continue; but even if it does, we are assured of a successful parcel post in spite of all this opposition.
We are assured of the success of parcel post in spite of all this. We have not been able to judge in the department. We put the parcel post policy into effect on the 10th of February. For the first six weeks the maximum weight of parcels accepted was six pounds, and then it was extended to the regular maximum of 11 pounds. We have not had sufficient time to say what the result is, but from what reports we have there is a steady increase and the people are availing themselves of it more and more every day.
My hon. friend (Mr. Lemieux) has asked to be allowed to put on ' Hansard ' certain statements, and we have gladly consented. I am going to ask the same privilege, in order to be brief, at this stage of the session. This is a comparison of the rates of Canadian parcel post with Canadian express charges and with the parcel post rates of the United States:

Montreal to	-	lib.	21b.Laprairie	$ cts. 0 05	$ cts. 0 06Express	0 25	0 25United States	0 05	0 06Quebec	0 10	0 14Express	0 25	0 30United States	0 07	0 12St. John	0 10	0 16Express	0 25	0 30United States	0 08	0 140 10	0 16Express	0 25	0 35United States	0 08	0 14Toronto	0 10	0 16Express	0 25	0 30United States	0 08	0 14Windsor, Ont	0 10	0 16Express	0 25	0 35United States	0 08	0 140 10	0 16Express	0 25	0 35United States	0 09	0 16Winnipeg	0 12	0 20Express	0 30	0 35United States	0 10	0 19Kegina	0 12	0 24Express	0 30	0 35United States	0 11	0 21Calgary	0 12	0 24Express	0 30	0 35United States	0 12	0 240 12	0 24 0 35Express	0 30	United States	0 12	0 2431b.	41b.	51b.	61b.	71b.	8 lb.	91b.	10 lb.	11 lb.$ cts.	$ cts-	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.0 07	0 08	0 10	0 12	0 14	0 16	0 18	0 20	0 220 25	0 25	0 25	0 25	0 25	0 25	0 25	0 25	0 250 07	0 08	0 09	0 10	0 11	0 12	0 13	0 14	0 150 18	0 22	0 26	0 30	0 34	0 38	0 42	0 46	0 500 30	0 30	0 35	0 35	0 35	0 35	0 40	0 40	0 400 17	0 22	0 27	0 32	0 37	0 42	0 47	0 52	0 570 22	0 28	0 34	0 40	0 46	0 52	0 58	0 64	0 700 40	0 45	0 50	0 50	0 55	0 55	0 60	0 60	0 650 20	0 26	0 32	0 38	0 44	0 50	0 56	0 62	0 680 22	0 28	0 34	0 40	0 46	0 52	0 58	0 64	0 700 45	0 50	0 55	0 60	0 65	0 70	0 75	0 75	0 800 20	0 26	0 32	0 38	0 44	0 50	0 56	0 62	0 680 22	0 28	0 34	0 40	0 46	0 52	0 58	0 64	0 700 30	0 35	0 40	0 40	0 40	0 40	0 45	0 45	0 450 20	0 26	0 32	0 38	0 44	0 50	0 56	0 62	0 680 22	0 28	0 34	0 40	0 56	0 52	0 58	0 64	0 700 45	0 50	0 50	0 50	0 60	0 65	0 65	0 70	0 750 20	0 26	0 32	0 38	0 44	0 50	0 56	0 62	0 880 22	0 28	0 34	0 40	0 46	0 52	0 58	0 64	0 700 45	0 60	0 70	0 75	0 80	0 85	0 90	0 95	1 050 23	0 30	0 37	0 44	0 51	0 58	0 65	0 72	0 790 28	0 36	0 44	0 52	0 60	0 68	0 76	0 04	0 920 45	0 60	0 75	0 90	1 00	1 05	1 10	0 10	1 250 28	0 37	0 46	0 58	0 64	0 73	0 82	0 91	1 000 34	0 44	0 54	0 64	0 74	0 84	0 94	1 04	1 140 45	0 60	0 80	0 90	1 00	1 10	1 20	1 25	1 600 31	0 41	0 51	0 61	0 71	0 81	0 91	1 00	1 110 36	0 48	0 60	0 72	0 84	0 96	1 08	1 20	1 320 45	0 60	0 80	0 90	1 00	1 20	1 20	1 25	1 600 36	0 48	0 60	0 72	0 45	0 96	1 08	1 20	1 320 36	0 48	0 60	0 72	0 84	0 96	1 08	1 20	1 320 45	0 60	0 50	0 90	1 00	1 20	1 35	1 50	2 000 36	0 48	0 60	0 72	0 84	0 96	1 08	1 20	1 32Toronto to	-	lib.	21b.	31b.	41b.	51b.	61b.	71b.	81b.	9 lb.	101b.	11 lb.$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	S cts.	Woodbridge	0 05	0 06	0 07	ft ft8	Express	6 25	0 25	0 25	0 25	0 25	0 30	0 30	0 30	0 30	0 30	0 30United States	0 05	0 06	0 07	0 08	0 09	010	0 11	0 12	0 13	0 14	0 15Hamilton	0 10	0 u	ft 18	ft 9.9.	Express	0 25	0 25	25	0 25	0 25	0 30	0 30	0 30	0 30	0 30	0 30United States	0 05	0 08	0 11	0 14	0 17	0 20	0 23	0 26	0 29	0 32	0 35V indsor	0 10	0 14	0 18	0 22	ft 26	ft 30	0 34	Express	0 25	0 30	0 35	0 35	0 40	0 45	0 45	0 50	0 50	0 50	0 55United States	0 07	0 12	0 17	0 22	0 27	0 32	0 37	0 42	0 47	0 52	0 57Ottawa	0 10	0 14	0 18	0 22	0 26	ft 30	0 34	Express	0 25	0 30	0 30	0 35	0 40	0 40	0 40	0 40	0 45	0 45	0 45United States	0 07	0 12	0 17	0 22	0 27	0 32	0 37	0 42	0 47	0 52	0 57Montreal	0 10	0 16	0 22	0 28	ft 34	ft 4ft	0 4ft	Express	0 25	0 30	0 30	0 35	0 40	0 40	0 40	0 40	0 45	0 45	0 45United States	0 08	0 14	0 20	0 26	0 32	0 38	0 44	0 50	0 56	0 62	0 68Quebec	0 10	0 16	0 22	0 28	0 34	ft 4ft	0 46	Express	-	0 25	0 30	0 40	0 45	0 50	0 55	6 55	0 55	0 60	0 60	0 60United States	0 08	0 14	0 20	0 26	0 32	0 38	0 44	0 50	0 56	0 62	0 68St. John	0 12	0 20	0 28	0 36	ft 44	ft 59.	0 60	Express	0 25	0 35	0 45	0 55	6 65	0 70	0 75	0 75	0 75	0 75	0 85United States	0 08	0 14	0 20	0 26	0 32	0 38	0 44	0 50	0 56	0 62	0 68Halifax	0 12	0 20	0 28	0 36	ft 44	ft 52	0 6ft	Express	0 25	0 35	0 45	0 60	6 65	0 75	0 80	0 80	0 85	0 85	0 95United States	0 09	0 16	0 23	0 30	0 37	0 44	0 51	0 58	0 65	0 72	0 79Winnipeg	0 10	0 16	0 22	0 28	ft 34	ft 4ft	ft 4ft	Express	0 30	0 35	0 45	0 60	0 75	0 85	0 95	0 95	1 00	1 05	120United States	0 09	0 16	0 23	0 30	0 37	0 44	0 51	0 58	0 65	0 72	0 79Regina	0 12	0 20	0 28	0 36	ft 44	ft 52	0 60	Express	0 30	0 35	0 45	0 50	0 75	0 90	100	110	1 15	1 20	1 451 nited States	0 10	0 19	0 28	0 37	0 46	0 55	0 64	0 73	0 82	0 91	1 00Calgary	0 12	0 24	0 34	0 44	ft .fwl	ft fi4	Express	0 30	0 35	0 45	0 60	0 80	0 90	1 00	110	1 20	1 25	1 60United States	0 12	0 24	0 36	0 48	0 60	0 72	0 84	0 96	1 08	1 20	1 32Vancouver	0 12	0 24	0 26	ft 48	ft ftft	ft 72	Express	0 30	0 35	0 45	0 60	0 80	0 90	1 00	120	135	1 50	2 00United States	0 12	0 24	0 36	0 48	0 60	0 72	0 84	0 96	1 08	1 20	1 32
I am also going to put on ' Hansard ' a very complete statement prepared under the supervision and to a great extent the work of the deputy Postmaster General, which puts the whole of this question in a fair way and gives to the public all the information which it is necessary to have in this respect. It is something that the members of the House should have on ' Hansard ' in order to know all the details:
The Postmaster General is informed, in reference to the rates charged by the express companies as compared with the rates brought into existence by the inauguration of parcel post, that whilst in the greater number of cases the parcel post rates are lower, it must be confessed there are some points where, owing to special circumstances, the express companies' charges are a few cents lower on the larger parcels. On all parcels up to seven pounds, however, the parcel post rates are very decidedly a decrease on those charged by the express companies. The rate is very decidedly in favour of parcel post on all parcels up to three pounds, and is lower than the express rate up to seven pounds, although the difference in the last three pounds is not so marked as in the first three pounds. It must be borne in mind, however, that no matter how minute the parcel or how short the distance it is sent by an express company, the minimum charge is twenty-five cents. This gives the express companies an enormous price on all very small parcels. This is not the case in parcel post, as we allow parcels to be posted at one cent an ounce up to ten ounces. If the department were to even make a minimum charge of ten cents it would be an immense financial gain as regards carrying out the scheme of parcel pqst hut it has been decided to give the public the advantage of the old rate of one cent an ounce on all parcels ten ounces or less-up to ten cents, which is the minimum of our charges per pound, outside the local rate.
Moreover, the maximum charge that can be made on any parcel up to eleven pounds, no matter what the distance, is twelve cents per pound. This is a very much lower rate than that of the express companies. This can perhaps be better illustrated by an example:
Take an eleven-pound parcel. The express charge thereon from Montreal to

Calgary is $1.60; under the parcel post rates the charge will be $1.32; and if the parcel is taken further, from Montreal to Vancouver, the discrepancy in the charges becomes greater. The express parcel would be paid for at the Tate of $2, for eleven-pound parcel, or a fraction over eighteen cents a pound, whereas under parcel post the amount paid would be $1.32, a maximum of twelve cents per pound. Another instance-on an eleven-pound parcel from Montreal to Winnipeg the parcel post rate will be ninety-two cents, the express rate $1.25. The only places where the express rates would seem to be more favourable than our rates is in the case of the larger parcels from seven to eleven pounds sent to points where there is competition between two or three express companies, notably, between Montreal and Quebec, or Montreal and Toronto. The express on an eleven-pound parcel from Montreal to Quebec is forty cents, and the parcel post rate will be forty-eight cents. Between Montreal and Toronto the express rate on an eleven-pound parcel is forty-five cents, and the parcel post charge will be sixty-eight cents, but on all parcels under seven pounds, even between these points, the parcel post rates are the lower, and, when you take into consideration the fact that the minimum parcel post rate for one pound is only 10 cents, as compared with 25 cents by express, and that on all parcels up to ten ounces only one cent an ounce is charged, instead of a minimum charge of 25 cents, the advantage in favour of parcel post, if worked out, would be very great indeed. Moreover, from the fact, as stated above, that all parcels under seven pounds have the advantage under the parcel post rates, and the experience of the United States since the inauguration of parcel post, that the average parcel sent through the mails is three pounds or under, it will be seen that, in the practical working out, an immense boon has been conferred on the people, and that a much reduced rate on parcels sent through the mails has been given to the people of Canada.
The charges on all parcels up to and including seven pound parcels between Montreal and Quebec are lower under parcel post than by express.
Between Montreal and Toronto, the charges on all parcels up to five pounds are in favour of parcel post; on six pounds

the same rate; and from seven to eleven pounds the express rate is lower.
Between Montreal and St. John, parcel post has the lower rate up to nine pounds; after that the express rate is a little lower.
Taking Toronto, in the province of Ontario, as a centre-all charges, of course, from Toronto to Montreal and Quebec will be just the converse of what has been quoted from Montreal as a centre, giving practically the same results; hut from Toronto to Winnipeg the parcel post rate is very much lower than the express on all weights. From Toronto to Regina, Toronto to Calgary, to Vancouver and Edmonton, the parcel post charges are very much lower on all weights.
It is only, therefore, at certain points where, owing to geographical conditions and competition, the express companies have been compelled to produce a very low rate, that there is any advantage in favour of the express companies as regards charges made to the public. After having crossed the border from one zone to another, as all charges under the parcel post system are flat rate charges, the charge must be made to every part of the province the same. This is not necessarily the case with the express companies, which, not being a Government organization, but private companies, have much greater elasticity in their formation, and are able to temper their charges to meet local conditions. As, between Toronto and Hamilton-whereas we must make the same charge from Toronto to Hamilton as to all other points of the province, the express companies, being private concerns, are enabled to make charges much lower than the Post Office Department could do, as we have not the same elasticity, but even here the rates are in favour of parcel post on parcels up to and including four pounds. On five pound parcels, the parcel post charges are one cent higher than the express rates; on six pounds, the same; and on parcels over seven pounds to eleven pounds the parcel post rates are higher. I quote this case because it is an extreme case, as being the most favourable-owing to the size of the two cities and their contiguity-to the express companies and the least favourable to the Post Office Depart ment.
From Toronto to Ottawa, the parcel post rate is lower in all charges on weights up to nine pounds; a little higher on the ten . and eleven pound weights.
From Toronto to Quebec, the parcel post 331J
charges are lower up to nine pounds, and a little higher on the ten and eleven pound parcels.
From Toronto to St. John, the parcel past charges are lower up to eight pounds, and a little higher than the express charges from eight to eleven pounds.
From Toronto and Montreal to Halifax, the charges under the parcel post system are lower than the express companies' charges on all weights up to eleven pounds.
To recapitulate, on all weights up to eleven ounces the parcel post charge is one cent an ounce, the express charge is 25c on each parcel, even on one ounce, no matter what it weighs. Up to one pound, the parcel post charge is 10c; the express rate, 25c. On all parcels up to five or six pounds, outside of the exceptions above enumerated, the parcel post charges are considerably lower than the express rates. On weights over seven pounds and up to eleven pounds, in some few instances the express charges are lower than those under parcel post, but in the majority of instances, even in these weights, the parcel post is much the lower rate, so that taking it on the whole, it means that the people of this country are going to have their parcels carried at a rate representing thousands of dollars less than has been taken from them in the past by the express rates which have been charged in Canada.
Moreover, an additional advantage in parcel post over the express companies is in the fact that a parcel delivered in one post office in Canada is taken to any other post office in Canada under a fixed single rate, whereas if it goes by express and if the express company going to destination differs from the express company at the office of origin, then at least two, or perhaps three charges may be made. This, of course, is absolutely avoided in the parcel post system.
The area of distribution by the express companies is confined to cities and towns, whereas the area of distribution of parcel post not only embraces cities and towns but extends to all our rural delivery routes and all post offices throughout the Dominion. The area of distribution, therefore, is infinitely larger; there is only one charge from one part of the Dominion to another; and the rates charged are on the whole infinitely less than the rates charged by the express companies. The area of distribution is much vaster, the number of post offices to which distribution is made being fourteen thousand, as against five

thousand odd by the express companies; delivery is effected on two thousand one hundred and three rural free delivery routes-representing some ninety thousand people to whom distribution is made-and on all other mail routes throughout the country.
As regards routes such as between Hamilton and Toronto, where the advantage is with the express companies, there will be no intereference with these, and the people of course will have the benefit of both systems. The object of parcel post is not competition with the express companies, nor with any other class of carriers, but simply to give the people a safe, reliable and cheap transportation of the necessities of life.
R.M. Coulter,
Deputy Postmaster General.
I think I have touched on all the points mentioned by my hon. friend.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Can my hon. friend
state what the approximate cost entailed by the establishment of the parcel post is, and what is the number of extra employees?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: We have not had to get many more employees. We have been obliged to get several clerks in important city post offices, and a few additional railway mail clerks.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Any carriers in the
cities?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: We have in important cities-in fact, in all the cities where we have letter carrier delivery-parcel post delivery. I have in mind that, sooner or later, after I have had. further consultation with my officers and the superintendents of the parcel post, we shall not only deliver the parcels as we are doing now, but shall collect them as well. I do not know what my officers will say about it; they have devoted a good deal of time and attention' to the organization of this scheme, and I shall be largely guided by their advice. But I have it strongly in my mind that our system will not be complete until we collect parcels as well as deliver them, that is, in the cities served by letter carriers.


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I listened with pleasure to the remarks of the hon. Postmaster General, inviting hon. gentlemen to co-operate with him towards the

extension of rural mail delivery throughout the Dominion. Now, for a great many months I have been applying for the establishment of such a service in the county of Montcalm but without success. What was the answer given me? That it costs too much; mail carriers are too exacting.
I wonder if that is really the reason. The hon. gentleman applies for a vote of thirteen or fourteen millions to run his department, and I am quite confident that out of that there is not a single cent towards satisfying my demands. Well, Mr. Chairman, I shall not allow those millions to be voted unless justice is rendered to the parish of St. Alexis, whence a petition was forwarded signed by the great majority of the people settled along the route. I am taken to task, I am criticised, I am told that my influence is nil, that I am unable to obtain fair treatment from the postal authorities. Well, to-night I am in a mood to say to the Postmaster General: No, those millions will not be passed unless justice is meted out to me. May I inquire from the minister whether tenders have been called for in connection with the establishment of the routes for rural mail delivery?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) The
hon. gentleman should have given me notice that he would require those figures. The department has more than 100,000 postal boxes, and the hon. member surely does not expect me to carry all these data in my head. I should be notified as to the particulars which it is desired to obtain. I shall supply that information to-morrow if he desires it.


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) Despite my reiterated demands, nothing has been done. Is it due to dishonesty, is it due to gross neglect of duty, or is it due to party bias? It would be improper to ascribe it to gross neglect of duty. Is it then dishonesty? I am not ready to assert it. I am rather inclined to think it is the result of political bias.
I have had a hard time trying to get back that $15,000 voted for the post office at Saint-Jaeiques, and which had (been taken away from me. The Minister of Public Works at last acted fairly by me. But I nnd it much more difficult to obtain my due from the Postmaster General.
St. Alexis is a Conservative parish which has always opposed me and gives strong majorities to my opponent. But once I am elected, I consider that I am the representa-

tive of the whole constituency of Montcalm. Whatever their party affiliations, whatever their views, I consider that they are all entitled to the same respect, the same protection, the same esteem, the same consideration on my part. I say to the Postmaster General that he is not acting fairly by his friends the Conservatives. Why are things so managed? It is because the candidate who opposed me is against all improvements, and has a grudge to satisfy on account of his recent defeat. The minister may rest assured that I shall keep this House in session any length of time until the minister agrees to act fairly by my electors.
We have millions and millions for all kinds of things; millions for making presents to everybody; millions for the navy, millions for the railway companies, millions for the multifarious undertakings which are not of any more importance than the establishment of a system of rural mail delivery in my county. And for the information of the minister, who has not the figures in hand and promises to have them to-morrow, I may say that Mr. Barrault, of the parish of St. Esprit, is willing to undertake the service for the price of $750 or $800 per annum. I understand that this is not too much.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) What
is the distance?


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) About eight miles.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) What
is the price asked?


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) Eight hundred dollars; is that an extravagant demand?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) Most
extravagant.


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) I
understand that is what is asked; I make that statement subject to correction.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) I shall get that information by to-morrow.


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) I ask it as a personal favour and in the name of my constituents. Do justice to whom justice is due. Since the pillow is a good counsellor, I feel confident that the Postmaster General will tell me to-morrow that this route will be established forthwith. I resume my seat relying on the minister's promise to supply that information to-morrow. But be careful, I intend sticking to it,
and even if I have to keep the House here six months, I am able to do so.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) The
hon. member should not take such a tone. I am quite willing to remain here six months and even a year, but I may just as well tell him that his prospects will not be brighter on that account. I am just as able as he is to remain here for an indefinite length of time, but it is not by indulging in threats that he will make any headway.'


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) I cannot succeed any other way; I have been moaning for months and months; well, possibly by making a fuss I may succeed.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) That will not make any difference.


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) If I
were a Conservative instead of being a Liberal member, the minister might show more zeal.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) The
hon. gentleman is most unfair.


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) Because you are unfair to me.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) No, I have given a striking proof of it a moment ago. I stated that the county where rural mail delivery had the strongest footing was that of St. Johns and Iberville, though all are aware that it is the most out and out Liberal county in the province of Quebec. That is surely not an evidence of political bias. That is one instance among others. I am not on any more friendly terms with the member for St. Johns than with the member for Montcalm, and he is wrong in thinking that I am showing party bias in his case. That is no way of ensuring the success of his cause; he is bound to show that his case is a good one.


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) I
have the right to claim justice.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) My
hon. friend will get what he wants provided he meets the requirements of the law. When the establishment of a rural mail delivery route is applied for in some locality or other, be it Conservative or Liberal, at prices which are not allowed by the department, we refuse without considering what are the party affiliations of the applicants. We are criticised on that account in many cases, but we cannot go beyond a certain amount. There is in the department-the hon. member for Rouville is in a position

to endorse my statement-a scale of prices on>
which we work, and when the prices demanded are higher, we are bound to refuse. We have certain rules which must be adhered to. I do not say that is what occurred in the case of the hon. gentleman from Montcalm, as I have not the required data, but if the prices quoted are in line with the figures he cited a moment ago, I may tell him at once that we will not give $800 per annum for a service covering 8 miles. I am not willing to grant him special treatment, but I am ready to extend to him the same treatment as to others.
Whenever he spoke in this House, he did so with vim and talent. My intercourse with him has been of the best; why endeavour to give the impression that he is being discriminated against? I may say that he is entirely mistaken in that respect. Besides, to-morrow we will have the required data and we will be posted on the matter.


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) When I complain of party bias, I think I am right, as in my constituency in a great many instances postmasters have been dismissed without the least semblance of teason. Whole families were deprived of their means of subsistence, to be replaced by Conservatives, just because they happened to be on the Liberal side. Here is a letter I have ujst received from a postmaster which you dismissed. The post office was removed from the village and located in a place where there are only four or five families settled, and situated four or five miles away.
Menasippe Piche had been in charge of the post office at St. Agricole for eight or nine years. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I shall read this letter:
St. Agricole, Montcalm Co.,
April 19, 1914.
D.	A. Lafortune, Esq., M.P.
Dear Sir,-I wish to advise you that I have just been relieved of the postmastership of St. Agricole. For nine years I had charge of the post office at the village here. It is not a large village, as we have no priest residing in the locality; the parish priest of Ste. Agathe looks after the mission. We have here a general store, a blacksmith shop, a sawmill, a feed mill, a planing mill and our chapel. So people come here to get their mail, as well as to transact other business.
He had been in charge of the post office for nine years; he had not even the right to vote, for that territory is still unorganized, and it is not a large village, since there is no resident priest. The letter goes on:

Despite our protests, we were deprived of our post office all the same, which was located at the far end of a range, four miles from the village, in a place where there are only a few families to make use of it. Between the spot where the office is located at present and Ste. Agathe, there are only four families settled; the mail carrier passes in front of those four houses only, while formerly, when the post office was located in the village, the mail carrier passed in front of the houses of almost every family in the place. People had to come for their letters, but when they had letters to post, they only had to hand them to the mail carrier on his way. To-day, on the contrary, we have to drive a distance of five or six miles to post a letter.
And he closes his letter as follows:
Hoping that you will And your way to secure for us another post office or to have the old post office restored, or else have the present postmaster to move to the village, I remain. ' Tour, etc.,
Mdnasippe PichA
And that is what is termed justice. I call it tyranny to remove the post office from a village and locate it in a back section where there are only four families settled, just for the purpose of putting out a poor man. It is no wonder if tyranny is complained of, after all the postmasters and all the mail carriers have been dismissed on account of their Liberal leanings.
I cannot obtain from the authorities the establishment of routes for rural mail delivery, and I am satisfied that it is the result of political bias and nothing else.
When the hon. Postmaster General states that our intercourse has always been friendly, he is right, but he is under the influence of the man I defeated and whom I shall defeat once more if he opposes me. He cannot get over his defeat. Henceforth, I shall have two constituencies: the one I represent and the one where my folks have been living, where I was born, and I am quite certain that my majority will be increased fourfold.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) What
does Mr. Seguin think of that?


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) We
will see to it that Mr. Seguin is looked after. Will the minister take note of the fact that the post office was removed from the village and located in a back section where there are only four families?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: (Translation.) How
do you call that parish?


David Arthur Lafortune: (Translation.) St.
Agricole. Is it not painful to see settlers so well disposed working, as they do, heart and soul to support their families, after a

day's work obliged to drive a distance of four or five miles in a hilly country, through bad roads, to get a letter or deliver one at a post office so far away?
That is the result of party politics: let us remove mail carriers and postmasters, let us change the location of post offices, and once that is done, let us sing the praises of that businesslike and humanitarian Government of ours!
I await with confidence the information I have sought from the minister. I would like to know what tenders have been called for and what tenders have been received, in order to find out whether it would be possible to make a start, in so thriving a parish as St. Alexis, with the system of rural mail delivery, and from that point extend it to the other parishes of the county.


Edmund William Tobin: Some time ago I referred
to the dismissal of the postmaster at Rieh-mond, Mr. J. R. Denison. I said:
I quite understand that some weeks ago there <vas a tour through the eastern townships of certain members of this Government, and I have no doubt that one of the promises they made at Richmond was that Mr. Denison's head should be cut off to make room for one of their own friends.
The Postmaster General said in reply:
I want to tell my hon. friend at once that the Hon. Mr. Perley has not in any way been the cause of the dismissal of this postmaster.
I was somewhat surprised to hear the Postmaster General make such a statement. I am sure that if he had seen the file regarding the dismissal of Mr. Denison he would have seen that Mr. Perley had had a great deal to do with that dismissal. I wish to read to the committee correspondence that took place after the election of 3911. I have here a letter dated Richmond November 8, 1911, signed J. Bedard, a very prominent citizen of Richmond at the time, who has since gone to a better world. In this letter Mr. Bedard congratulates the Postmaster General on his successful election and at the same time asks that his brother be made postmaster at that place. The letter is as follows:
(Translation.)
Richmond, Que., 8th Nov., 1911. The Hon. I,. P. Pelletier,
Postmaster General,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir,-Please accept my sincere congratulations now that you are our Postmaster General.
Some time before the downfall of the Laurier Government, there was a conference held by our friends, the Liberals of our county, chiefly those
of Richmond, with a view to asking the Laurier Government to make a change in our post office, considering that our postmaster, Mr. W. Dennison, was growing old and that he did not speak French, and it was recommended that he should be superannuated. A petition is now being circulated in favour of David Bddard, my brother, who is well qualified for the position, as he speaks both languages, French and English. This petition is signed by several of the leading Liberals and Conservatives making the same recommendation.
You will receive this petition within a few days. Should such a change be made, I am sure public opinion and our friends will be satisfied.
Believe me, Sir,
Your devoted servant,
(Sgd) J. Bddard.
P.S.-Such an appointment would be an excellent one and would prove agreeable to our party.-J.B.
The Postmaster General replied in a letter dated Ottawa, 17th November, 1911, as follows :
(Translation.)
Ottawa, 17th Nov., 1911.
Dear Sir,

I am in receipt of your letter of the 8th instant, recommending the appointment of Mr. David Bddard as postmaster at Richmond, Que., in place of the present incumbent, in case he should be dismissed.
Allow me to tell you that I take a note of your suggestion and that I will attend to this matter.
Yours truly,
(Sgd) L. P. Pelletier.
Joseph BSdard, Esq.,
(Joseph Bddard & Sons),
Richmond, Que.
Later on Mr. David F. Bedard writes to the Postmaster General enclosing a petition dated Richmond, Quebec, January 2, 1912, signed by over 200 electors:
Dear Sir,-Herewith inclosed please find a petition signed , by a large number of Conservative and Liberal electors of this constituency recommending my appointment as postmaster at Richmond, should there be a change in our post office

I want to remark that David F. Bedard, in applying to be made postmaster at Richmond had a petition signed by over 200 electors who said ' If there was going to be a change made in this office.' The letter continues:
-on the grounds set forth in the letter which my brother wrote to you, on the Sth November last, hoping that my application will meet with your approval.
I remain, dear Sir,
Yours truly,
(Signed) David F. B6dard.
The names are follows:-
P. Quinn, curd, E. Rachette, M.D., E. McGovern, Cleophas Girard, Clement Wilcocks, F.
A.	Bedard, P. Healy, F. A. Cleveland, C. E Hatcher, P. J. Girard, J. B. Emond, Robert

Wood, Jos. Gagnon, N. Murchand, P. W. Dyson,
O.	O. Choyer, A. J. Lemelin, Alphonse Girard, J. Morrisey, Ferdinand Sevigny, Geo. Barry, F. Corner, R. Dyson, Arthur J. Girard, A. James Bedard, Eddy Poulin, T. H. Harper, J. Collins, C. Bradford, J. Parkes, J. Houliston,
P.	Duhainse, Alphonse Emond, Wm. J. H. Walt, H. Gregory, J. H. LaRoche, Arthur Derocher, W. H. Burnside, M. O'Donnel, G. Lasonde, George Hill, W. Crop, Jos. Dionne, J. P. Con-naughton, Jos. Laplante, H. F. Bedard, Cyrille Mouphette, Alfred St. Pierre, Amie. Trudeau, Odilon Arsenault, Hulaire Trembly, W. Ridley, J. H. Bonneau, Joseph Courcie, E. Dupuron, J. F. Linahan, H. W. Riff, A. D. Trudeau, A. Lampron, A. Lanhu, Edward McGovern, Frank Blanchard, Hyacinthe Lampron, P. L. Laroche, R. Durand, Geo. Litorid, G. B. Fuller, F. St. Jean, Geo. Pauquette, E. Desrocher, Nap. Jull-uen, J. O. A. Vadnais, J. E. Jenelle, Franc Nicol, J. P. Cote, Ben. Asselin, P. McDonaugh,
E.	Rochford, W. Tremblay, Emile Dubois, N. Strew, F. Daigle, D. Tremblay, Geo. H. Gain, John Jackson, John Dunn, Louis Blais, H. Flemming, Am. Lampron, W. E. Hiting, W. B. Dupuis, V. Dufault, Jos. Sanville, Benj. Puient, Sten. Lablanc, Hercules Duperon, W. Daigle,
A.	Hall, Jos, Labrie, A. Doxatrader, Arthur Wilcocks, Cyrille Monpette, Alfred St. Pierre, Aime Trudeau, Odilon Arsenault, A. J. Lamelin, Hilaire Tremblay, O. O. Choyer, W. Ridley, F. W. Dyson, J. H. Bonneson, Joseph Coercie, J.
B.	Doyle, George Conneau, H. Laghencn, J. F. Lineleun H. W. Riff, A. D. Trudeau, Rodohep Lampson, A. Wall, A. L. Lanhn, Edward Foern, H. Durand, Frank Blanchard, Hyacinthe Lampron, Geo. Ladoner, N. Marhond, G. B. Fuller,
F.	St. Jean, Jos. Gagnon, Geo. Paquette, E.
Desrocher, Nap. Julien, J. O. A. Vadnais, J. A. Jarville, Robert Wood, Franc Nicol J. P. Cote, Foy Fantaine, Ferdinand Sevigny, Benjamin Asselin, P. McDonaugh, E. Ratchford, W. Tremblay, J. Aueingee, Emile Dubois, N. Straw, W. Doyle, F. Daigle, D. Tremblay, Geo. Gagnon, John Jackson, John Dunn, Louis Balis, H. N. Flennet, J. Morrisey, Alphonse Girard, Jno. Sampille, Benj. Parent, Sten. Leblanc, Am. Lampron, Geo. Baring, W. Whiting W. B. Dupois, . Arcule Dauperess, V. Dufault, F. Corner, E. Dottoder, R. Dyson, Arthur J. Girard, Joseph Labris, Eddy Poulin, P. J. Girard, J. H. Harper, J. Collins, C. Broadford, J. Parker, J. C. Houliston, T. Duhoise, Alphonse Emond, William H. Wait, H. Gregory, J. A. LaRose, C. E. Hatcher, Arthur Derocher, A. Henry, W. H. Burnside, M. G. Donnece, W. Q. Emond, 

, G. Lalonde, Cleophas Girard, George Hill, W. Crop, Arthur Wilcocks, Clement Wilcocks, Jos. Dionnon, J. P. Con-naughton, Joseph Laplante, E. Dtchonchette, M.D., Jos. Biard, T. D. Bidaud, H. F. Bedard, E. M. Gorrin, P. Quinnin, Ste. Cure, F. A. Cleveland, A. James Bedord, druggist, M. Cleveland.
Mr. Verret then writes Mr. Bedard as follows:
(Translation.)
Ottawa, 9th January, 1912. Dear Sir,-I am directed to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 2nd instant, including a petition recommending your appointment as postmaster at Richmond, should there be a change, and to tell you in reply, that if there is a change, your application will be taken into consideration, when the time comes for appoint-
ing another postmaster for the Richmond post office.
Yours truly,	_
(Sgd) H. B. Verret.
Assistant-Deputy Postmaster General. David F. Bedard, Esq.,
Richmond, Que.
On February 18, 1914, Mr. Charles S. Campbell writes a letter to Hon. George H. Perley and on February 20 Mr. Perley writes to the Postmaster General:
My dear Pelletier,-I am in receipt of a letter dated the 18th instant enclosing a complaint in regard to the present postmaster at Richmond Que., which has been signed by six of the prominent business men of the place. I now beg to enclose this complaint herewith. Kindly arrange to have same investigated as soon as may be convenient, and oblige.
Yours very truly,
George H. Perley.
The Postmaster General replied to that letter on February 23, as follows:
Ottawa, Ont., February 23, 1914.
Dear Mr. Perley,-I have received your communication of the 20th instant, enclosing a letter from Mr. Charles Campbell and a petition signed by six of the prominent business men of Richmond, complaining of the management of the Richmond post office.
In reply I beg to say that the post office inspector at Sherbrooke is being asked to make inquiry and report in this matter.
Your truly
(Sgd) L. P. Pelletier, Postmaster General. Hon. Geo. H. Perley, M.P.,
House of Commons,
Ottawa.
Then there was a letter from the inspector, one from the secretary to Mr. Bedard, dated Ottawa, April 11, 1914, just a few days after the gentlemen had returned from that political tour throughout the Eastern townships. They went through all the counties in the Eastern townships and consulted with their followers to see if they could find any Grits in positions whose heads they could cut off to make room for their own friends. Then Mr. Perley writes to the Postmaster General:
Hon. L. P. Pelletier,
Postmaster General,
Ottawa.
Dear Mr. Pelletier,-I understand that one of your inspectors has made a report saying that the postmaster at Richmond is not giving a proper service, or one that is satisfactory to the people of Richmond.
I quite agree with you that on the basis of this report the present postmaster should be dismissed, and in his place I recommend that you appoint Mr. William E. Mclver of Richmond.
Yours very truly,
George H. Perley.

And Mr. Denison's head was cut off. On the 13th of May the Postmaster General stated in the House that Mr Perley had nothing to do with his dismissal. He said:
I am somewhat surprised to hear the hon. member for Richmond and Wolfe raising this question in the way he has done. Politics do not enter into this case at all. I want to tell my hon. friend at once that the Hon. Mr. Perley has not in any way been the cause of the dismissal of this postmaster.
If the hon. gentleman had read this correspondence, how could he make such a statement to the House? Mr. Denison had been postmaster of Richmond for a number of years. The Liberal party did not cut off anybody's head to make room for him. In 1895, the Conservative Government voted a sum of money for a public building in the town of Richmond, and the building was not completed until after the Liberal party came into power. A postmaster was required. Mr. Denison was recommended for the position, and got it. There was no politics in that case; no one lost his head through Mr. Denison being appointed. In his report, the post office inspector alleges that even strangers were allowed to hang around in the office. He even accuses the deputy postmaster, Mr. Ewing, for being in the office, saying he had no business to be there. Mr. Ewing is a very honourable gentleman and had the Government appointed a man of his ability as ipostmaster instead of appointing Mr. Mclver, a young man about thirty-seven years old, who lost his deposit when he was put up as a candidate for Richmond County for the local legislature, the people of Richmond would have been better pleased. If you went down to Richmond, Mr. Chairman, and inquired about Mr. Denison and Mr. Mclver, I am sure you would agree with me that Mr. Denison as a business man is worth far more than Mr. Mclver. The people of Richmond, as can be seen by the letters and the petition, wanted a postmaster that could speak both languages. A petition was signed by over 200 citizens of Richmond asking for the appointment of Mr. David Bedard. He is a Conservative. He is respected throughout the whole town, and has lived in Richmond for the last forty-five years; but on the advice of Mr. Perley-his letter is on file-the Postmaster General turned down Mr. Bedard.
Now, in regard to the six-business men as the Postmaster General calls them- who complained about the Richmond post
office, one of them is Dr. John Hayes.
Conservative candidate in the last general election and now mayor of Richmond. The others were Col. E. Bernard, ex-mayor and president of the Agricultural Society (I think they gave him to understand last year that he had better get out and he did); Mr. A. S. Raifibach, manager of the Canadian Bank of Commerce; Mr. W. H. Keenan, proprietor of the principal hotel (he is a Conservative and keeps a first class hotel); Mr. G. J. Alexander, secretary of the Board of Trade and president of the Life Assurance Underwriters' Association; and Mr. Charles Campbell, manager of the Boston Last Company and president of the Board of Trade. Your humble servant met some of these gentlemen one day, and asked whether it was true that Mr. Denison was going to be dismissed. They said they had heard nothing about it. I can tell the Postmaster General that these gentlemen were surprised when they saw in the ' Hansard ' that the people knew that they had complained of the Richmond postmaster. Mr. Denison does not complain about being dismissed, but objects to the way it was done. Just imagine a man who had served the public for fifteen or seventeen years being dismissed in this way. The first notification he got was a letter from the post office inspector, as follows:
Dear Sir,-I beg to notify you that I have received notice from the department at Ottawa that you have been dismissed from the postmastership of Richmond; for unsatisfactory management.
The transfer will take place as soon as arrangements can be made.
Tours truly,
L. E. Dastous,
Post office Inspector.
That was a nice way to dismiss an old servant. Mr. Dastous says that Mr. Denison knew of the investigation, tout Mr. Denison denies that in a letter to Dastous.
Mr. Perley's letter to the Postmaster General of the 11th of April, 1914, bears me out in my statement that politics did enter into this case, and that he was the cause of this man's dismissal. Mr. Perley made a trip through the Eastern Townships, and on his return gave out interviews saying that wherever he had spoken the French Canadian people were carried away with enthusiasm for the naval policy of this Government. Mr. Perley was labouring under a, false impression, and I am sure he and his colleagues will find out that he was wrong in that respect.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: We have been over
all this ground before. On one occasion we

spent one and a half hours discussing it, and now to-night we have spent another half hour. I have stated that Mr. Perley was not the cause of the dismissal of Mr. Denison, and that is the truth. I have already given the reason for his dismissal, but if I do not repeat it I suppose I shall be told that I have no answer to make. This postmaster was dismissed as a result of the investigation held by Mr. Dastous. Mr. Perley did not know those facts personally.
I had not before me the letter from Mr. Perley which my hon. friend read a moment ago but I was right in telling him that Mr. Perley wa3 not the cause of the dismissal of this postmaster. The postmaster was dismissed for cause-for the mismanagement of the office. I have the report of my officer about it, I relied upon that officer and what he reported was confirmed by five or six of the best men in Richmond. Even if my hon. friend goes oveT this matter two or three timee I cannot say more than I have. I would like now to put on ' Hansard ' a letter which Mr. Hays wrote and he answers the remarks made by my hon. friend the other day when he spoke on this question.


Edmund William Tobin: If Mr. Hays has written a letter I would like the Postmaster General to read it.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I move that the committee rise so that something else can be done.


Edmund William Tobin: Will the hon. gentleman
not read one of those letters?


Francis N. McCrea: In connection with the
automobile I would like the Postmaster General to give the answer that I asked him for.	.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I answered the hon. gentleman five or six times, and I think that is enough.


Francis N. McCrea: You did not answer my question:	From whom did you get that
car?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I did; I told you
that we got that car from Mr. Caron.


Francis N. McCrea: You told me that this
car had been bought during the past year for $4,500. You admitted practically that this car had been in the service of the department for two years-1912 and 1913.
I asked you where this car came from,

what price had been paid for it and whether it was a second-hand car or a new one.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I gave you the answer correctly.


Francis N. McCrea: You told me that this
car had been in the service of the department for two years and that it had been transferred to Sherbrooke.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I did all I could to make my hon. friend understand what I said. I have done my best.


Francis N. McCrea: The minister told us yesterday that he would give us the information at another time.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I told you that I would give it at the following sitting. I had the information at six o'clock, I gave the whole of the information and it will be found on ' Hansard.' Surely this is not fair.


Francis N. McCrea: It is not on 'Hansard' as to where the car came from.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Well, if it is not on ' Hansard,' the reporters of ' Hansard ' do not know their business.


Francis N. McCrea: The answer was that you could not tell me where it came from although you were using it here yourself. You told me that it only had been a few months in the service of the department when that car had actually been in your own personal service last summer and the year before. You could not tell me where it came from. It looks as if you did not want to give the information. The car was in the service of yourself and of the Post Office Department last year, but it disappeared and it has turned up in Sherbrooke. A good many cars have been bought at different places in the country, and I want to know how many there are and how much they have cost. How many cars have the department now in its service all over the country, what are they and what is the cost of them ? We want to find out how many employees of the Government are running around in Packard cars at the cost of the country.


Edmund William Tobin: I do not want the Postmaster General to think that I desire to monopolize the time of the House, but on the 13th May last this subject was under discussion. The Postmaster General answered me and it came to one o'clock.
Mr. Tobin : Will we be able to discuss this at three o'clock?
Mr. Pelletier : Yes, that is what I was going to suggest.

At three o'clock that afternoon we took up the Canadian Northern Bill, and this is the first occasion I have had to bring this dismissal before the attention of the House.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: What I complain of
is that my hon. friend (Mr. Tobin) has been traversing the same ground over and over again to-night notwithstanding the fact that I have given him my answer. The other members of this House are perhaps not as much interested in this matter as my hon. friend and I are, and when I propose to read a letter he says ' no.' I do not think that is fair. I am bound to read that letter; if I do not read it to-night I will read it to-morrow. After a long day's work, when one is called upon to answer a lot of questions about automobiles, there comes a time when a man feels somewhat tired. I am tired and I am obliged now to adjourn my Estimates and I will take them up at some other time. I took them up to-night because I was told that half an hour or an hour would be sufficient to dispose of them, and I did not suppose that we would take so much time over these items.


Edmund William Tobin: If the Postmaster General
says that he is too tired to put these letters on ' Hansard ' by reading them, I will read them myself if the hon. gentleman has no objection.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I have only one letter from Mr. Hays. My hon. friend made reference to him the other day and he simply wants to answer him and explain the matter. That can be put on ' Hansard ' and my hon. friend can read it in ' Hansard,' but I have the right to put it on ' Hansard ' myself by reading it.


Edmund William Tobin: If you wish to read it, all right.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I will read it to-morrow; I cannot read it to-night.


Jacques Bureau: Why not?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Because I am tired.


Francis N. McCrea: I have asked a fair and legitimate question. I want to know, since that car that was in the service last year has turned up in Sherbrooke, how many cars have been bought and where they are?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I answered that question yesterday, and I am not going to answer it again to-day.


Francis N. McCrea: I am asking you how
many ears are in the service of the Post Office Department of this country. We are entitled to know how many post office inspectors are riding around in high-price^ cars and not only post office inspectors but their families. Will you give me an answer to that to-morrow?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I have not the answer now to give, but my deputy is taking a note of it.


Edmund William Tobin: I am not insisting on your doing it now.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: My deputy is taking
a note and will verify the facts.


George Perry Graham: The Postmaster General says that he will get this information for the hon. member, and I think that ought to be satisfactory.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Certainly.


Francis N. McCrea: When?


Robert Laird Borden: On concurrence.


Francis N. McCrea: I have asked for information and I have received wrong replies. I asked some time ago what were the expenses connected with the new inspection office, and I got the reply, which will be found *in ' Hansard ', that the total expense was .$4,700. Then I asked the minister to give me the individual names of the officials *and the wages that they were receiving and he gave me an answer showing that the cost was $8,770. The two answers to the [DOT]same question show a difference of one [DOT]hundred per cent.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: That is absolutely and totally wrong and misleading, and my hon. *friend has no right to make such a statement in the House.


Francis N. McCrea: ' Hansard ' will show.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: 'Hansard' will show the contrary. My hon. friend puts two [DOT]questions. He first puts to me the question: Who were the new employees, specifying the word ' new ', and what are their salaries? We answered that question as it was put. Then, later, my hon. friend put another question about the whole staff and we gave in answer the facts as they were. My hon. friend has no right to come before the House and make that statement. The two answers are absolutely correct. My hon. friend made a statement of that kind the other day and we took the pre-

caution to have the whole thing explained and put a statement on ' Hansard ' explaining the matter fully. To-night the hon. gentleman tells the House I did not give a correct statement, and that is not fair.


Francis N. McCrea: I asked you how many
employees were in the Post Office Inspector's office at Sherbrooke, and you said there were five, and that the total amount of their salaries was $4,700.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I gave the facts.


Francis N. McCrea: I then asked for the individual names and the amount of salary received by each. Allow me to tell you that you have eight employees in your Post Office Inspector's office, that you have removed some from the post office down to the inspector's office, and consequently they are new employees in the inspector's office, though they are old employees of the Post Office Department. When you were giving me the information with reference to that you did not give me a correct answer. You appointed other people in the post office to take the place of those people whom you sent to the inspector's office, and when I asked you the number of employees in the inspector's office I expected you would give me the names of these because they are new at that business.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I put a statement on ' Hansard ' explaining the whole of the matter. It does not seem as if my hon. friend (Mr. McCrea) has read ' Hansard.'


Jacques Bureau: The answer was not
satisfactory.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: If it was not satisfactory then it is impossible to satisfy my hon. friend. If the hon. gentleman read ' Hansard ' he would not be complaining to-night about a discrepancy between the answers.


Jacques Bureau: There was.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: What is the use of
saying that. The statement I gave gives the facts as fully as possible.


Francis N. McCrea: I wish to say to the committee that I am not here through curiosity or to annoy anybody, but when I ask a straight legitimate question I want a truthful answer, and the minister has not given me a truthful answer.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: That is not true.


Francis N. McCrea: The Post Office Inspector's office is a new office created last year

and every man working there is a new employee in that office as I understand it. True, some of them were transferred from the post office because they were better versed in the work than 12 m. new men would be, but they were replaced by others and consequently every one in the inspector's office was a new employee and. the minister did not give a correct answer when he said there were only five in that office and that their wages were $4,700 while as a matter of fact their wages amounts to $8,700.


Edmund William Tobin: Is the Postmaster General going to put that letter on ' Hansard ' tonight?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I understand my hon. friend consented to it.


Edmund William Tobin: Certainly.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Yes, with the consent of the House I will hand the letter into ' Hansard ':
Richmond, Que., May 22, 1914.
Hon. L. P. Pelletier,
Postmaster General,
Ottawa.
Honourable Sir,-In the matter of the dismissal of Postmaster Denison, of Richmond, P.Q. I was astonished to read that you had been accused of [DOT] brutality ' by the member from Richmond and Wolfe, Mr. E. W. Tobin. I deem it my duty to draw your attention to certain facts which may go to show matters in an entirely different light. The imputation of brutality comes with poor grace from a Liberal member of Parliament when the treatment meted out to Mr. C. C. Campbell former postmaster at Richmond and Mr. Denison's predecessor in office is recalled.
As you are aware the Richmond office was one of the first established in the Eastern Townships In 1817 and has had for postmasters successively:
Stephen Bernard, 1817; Arthur Lord, 1819; John P. Dresser, G. K. Poster, 1837 ; Herb. Foster, 1880; C. Campbell, 1888 ; and the expostmaster Mr. Denison, 1898 to 1914.
Now, some time prior to 1896, the growing requirements of Richmond necessitated the building of a new office to replace the old one and a branch office at the railway station of which Mr. Jutras (deceased) was postmaster. When the Liberals came to power in 1896 the new office was ready for occupancy and Mr. C.
C.	Campbell the senior postmaster was the legitimate heir to the appointment, or rather was legitimately entitled to be transferred to the new building.
Mr. Campbell had been a clerk in the ' G. K. Foster post office ' for years, both under Mr. G. K. Foster and his son Herbert Foster; he had been deputy postmaster under the latter and finally was postmaster from 1888 to the time of his dismissal. Young, active and fully qualified he had given good public service; he was a poor man with a growing family and needed the emoluments.
No charges or no investigation of political par-

tisanship or incompetency were lodged against him. On the contrary, he was very generally supported throughout the town and tributary district of which Richmond is the distributing point. Many of his strongest supporters at the time were Liberals; there are men who hold high office in the Quebec Government to-day and men in the public service; others who have passed away; others still who are prominent in public life in Richmond and high in the councils of the Liberal party, who did everything in their power to prevail on the then Postmaster General, Mr. Mulock, to retain Mr. Campbell in office. One group of ten leading Liberals journeyed to Montreal to advise the leaders there against an unjust dismissal; a petition signed by over 325 electors, and including a great list of prominent Liberal leaders and followers, was sent to the hon. Postmaster General Mulock in Mr. Campbell's interest. This memorial sets up: 1st. That it was the desire of all that no change be made in the postmastership; 2nd. That Mr. Campbell had not been guilty of partisanship in the late election (1896) ; 3rd. That he was a satisfactory, competent and experienced officer who by reason of his long connection (27 years) and good service in the old Richmond office, was entitled to the new one. All to no avail. Mr. Denison, who had been postmaster at a small office at Denison's Mills since 1861, who had been a defeated candidate in 1896 against the late Mr. Joseph Bedard, who was not the unanimous choice of his party and in spite of the representations already stated, Mr. Denison who was a well-off farmer, who had no special qualifications for the office, must be provided for. His son, Mr. W. O. Denison, was given the postmastership of Denison's Mills which his father held almost uninterruptedly since 1861, and Mr. Denison, sr., was given the Richmond office in 1898.
Does it appear to you that there was much 4 mercy ' shown Mr. Campbell by the party which is now crying 4 cruelty ' through Mr. Tobin.
You will kindly note that Mr. Campbell did not ask to be reinstated himself as he might have legitimately done; neither does his letter of February 11, 1914, ask for Mr. Denison's dismissal; it is simply a statement of facts susceptible of proof, and which your department deemed sufficiently important to investigate. The result of the investigation would go to show that there was ground for complaint. The evidence given by Mr. H. Leonard and by Mr. C. Miller will scarcely be questioned by Mr. Tobin ; both Liberals, one a prominent business man of the town, Mr. Leonard, an ex-Liberal candidate, and a man not given to complaining without reason. It would appear from the above facts that a large number of very prominent Liberals were opposed to Mr. Denison's nomination from the outset; it further appears that at the time of his dismissal his Liberal friends had concluded that he was unable to discharge the duties of such an important office as Richmond to the public satisfaction.
Because Mr. Campbell had been unjustly dealt with would be no excuse for the dismissal of his successor; Mr. Campbell has not shown any revengeful spirit; the conditions of which he and others complained of were gradually getting worse, yet nothing was said until the whole public of Richmond were complaining of the state of affairs at the office; through
physical incapacity, or through sheer inability by reason of advancing age, Mr. Denison had become unable or unwilling to preserve order in the lobby. It would have been a simple matter for him to lodge evidence with the proper authorities against any act of vagrancy, mutilation of property, or disorderly conduct. When he applied to the Town Council for police protection his appeal was unaccompanied by any evidence or charge which an officer could act upon ; although he put in many hours daily in the office he appears never to have seen anything of what was going on-again evidence of inability or reluctance to act.
The real truth of the disorder in the lobby was that a number of boys behaved badly there; Mr. Denison's loss of control alone prevented him from administering the proper remedy. Over a year ago, a prominent Liberal here asked me why a change was not made in the office on account of the incompet-er.cy of Mr. Denison-and the poor service. If I have made my meaning clear you will have seized the contrast in the manner in which Mr. Campbell and Mr. Denison have been treated:
1.	Mr. Campbell, young, competent, poor and needful of the office, supported by both parties, no charges against him ; no investigation, dismissed by the 4 gentle ' Liberals.
2.	Mr. Denison, rich, who did not need the office, opposed by Liberals at the start and declared incompetent by both parties at the end, Mr. Denison who had already had an office which his son still occupies; requested to resign, refused, dismissed after departmental Inquiry. Surely the Denisons, father and son, have been well treated by both parties since 1861.
If there be any 'cruelty' in connection with this dismissal it would be the case for Mr. Denison to say: 4 O Lord deliver me from my friends.' I wish to add that as a citizen and a man Mr. Denison stands well in the esteem of his fellow citizens.
I notice, in the debate, that Mr. Bureau made reference to me as 4 the man that Tobin liked '. In justice to Mr. Tobin I want to say that Mr. Tobin never did anything of the kind. I presume what Mr. Bureau meant was that in the election of 1911 Mr. Tobin got more votes than I did. What happened in my case, happened to the vast majority of the Liberal candidates in that election. It seems to be the fate of political struggle, so much so that in the county of Richmond and Wolfe, no less a distinguished statesman than the present leader of the Opposition Sir Wilfrid Laurier was. .	. .
what shall I say? Defeated by C. C. Clevelai*! some years ago.
I have the honour to be,
Honourable Sir,
Yours truly^
John Hays, M.D.
Mr. MoCREA: Do I understand the Postmaster General to say that he is going to give us information regarding the number of automobiles in the post office service and what they have cost?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I have told the hon. gentleman more than once that I would ask the deputy minister to make a note of it and give the information.
52G6

Mr. MeCREA: Will you give me that information?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I have answered that question already.
Mr. MeCREA: You will not give me that information now?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: No.
Mr. MeCREA :	Then somebody will.
When I ask a fair question I am entitled to an answer. I do not want to be unreasonable, but I want an answer. Will you promise to give it to me to-morrow?


Robert Laird Borden: The hon. gentleman has been told by the Postmaster General that his deputy has been asked to make a note of the question for the purpose of getting the information.
Mr. MeCREA: I have asked for this information before, and I have not got it.


Robert Laird Borden: That is really all that can be done until the information is available.


Jacques Bureau: I appeal to the Prime Minister, if it is an answer to a question to state that the deputy minister has taken a note of it?


Robert Laird Borden: It does not give the information, but it is the only answer that can be given, until the information is available. It is the answer that has always been given in my experience in considering Estimates under similar circumstances.


Jacques Bureau: When hon. gentlemen were in opposition they reproached ministers for hours and hours for not being in their seats to give answers to questions, and now the Prime Minister says that it is an answer to a question when a minister tells his deputy minister to make a note of it, and then the hon. member (Mr. McCrea) is told to sit down.


Robert Laird Borden: I did not hear any one tell the hon. member to sit down.


Jacques Bureau: Well, that is what it means.


George William Kyte: I understand that the Postmaster General is increasing the compensation to the railways on account of their having to carry parcels. I have had several inquiries from mail couriers in my county as to whether it is the intention of the Postmaster General to give them extra remuneration for the extra services they

perform in connection with the parcel Dost.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The question is a fair one. The couriers who had contracts previous to the coming into operation of parcel post and whose contracts consequently did not cover parcel post, are entitled to a proportionate increase, if the weight of mail which they carry is increased. We have had already several requests in that respect, which we are considering.


George William Kyte: What system has the Postmaster General adopted to enable him to arrive at a conclusion as to the proportionate increase that should be paid? Is he asking the couriers to supply returns as to the number of parcels they are carrying?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: We ask the officers and the postmasters at the points where the couriers start and at the points of destination. In cases where the demand seems a little large, we send one of our officers to verify the facts.


George William Kyte: Is it necessary for the couriers to make application for this increased renumeration in respect of parcel post, or are they advised by the post office inspector that they are entitled to that increased remuneration?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: We have taken it for granted so far that those who are entitled to the increase will ask for it.


George William Kyte: Some of them might be afraid, perhaps that their contracts would be cancelled if they asked for the increase.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: No, their contracts will never be cancelled when they make application like that.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is the exact meaning of these words 'new rates? Is it the increased subsidy to the railway?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Yes, and it changes its basis. Formerly it was a contract per track mile; and these new rates are per car mile.
Excise-Travelling expenses, rent, fuel, stationery, etc., further amount required, $5,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is that travelling expenses for your officers?


Mr. NANTEL:: For excise officers.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am informed that there has been a seizure at L'Ange Gardien of cigars that were sold without bands. Has my hon. friend been informed of that?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We have just read a letter from the collector at that point.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has any action been taken by the department?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Not yet.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will there be an investigation, or will the matter be taken before the court?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No action has yet been taken. We are asking for further information regarding the matter.
Legislation-Senate-salaries and contingent expenses, $115,166.50.


Robert Rogers: This is a general vote for the Senate.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Some time ago I inquired from the Secretary of State if the lists for the county of Jacques Cartier were ready; and he said that, as soon as they were ready, I would be informed. I have not yet received the information; and I would like to get the assurance that, as soon as the lists are ready, my hon. friend will send me, say, three copies.


Mr. CODERRE:: I remember making the promise. The reason why the lists are not completed is because we have not yet received the list for the municipality of Verdun. A3 soon as the lists are completed, I will send my hon. friend a copy.
The Koyal Society of Canada, $8,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am glad to see that the Minister of Public Works has implemented the promise he made to me some months ago that in the new buildings he would set apart a suite of rooms for the annual meeting of the Royal Society of Canada. This society was founded by the Marquis of Lome when he was Governor General, and part of its expenses is borne by the Government; it is a state society, so to speak. Its annual meetings are held in Ottawa, sometimes in the Carnegie Library and sometimes in the Normal school both places, unfortunately, not suited to its requirements. An annual volume is issued, containing the various papers contributed by the society, which is published by the Government. A motion was passed last year at the annual meeeting-I happen to be a member of the society myself-to the effect that the Government shouild provide room for the society, and I have had practically the promise of my hon. friend that something would be done. Possibly in the new buildings he intends to set apart a
suite of rooms. If he does so it will be perfectly satisfactory to me and to the fellows of the Royal Society as well.


Robert Rogers: At the present time a room is supplied in the Museum for the Royal Society, and it is not as desirable as we should like it to be. But my hon. friend can depend upon it that when we are making our plans I will see that suitable rooms are provided for the Royal Society.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The reason I ask for a suite of room is that the society is made up of various groups. There is the English section, the French section, the scientific section, the natural history section, and so on, all of which meet in different rooms. At times all of the groups come together in a general meeting. I should be pleased if my hon. friend would arrange a suite of rooms, one for their library, one for their secretary, and others for the meetings of the various sections.
Cost of proceedings before the International Joint Commission, $10,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Does that include salaries?


Robert Rogers: No, only the cost of proceedings.
To provide for the expenses of the Conservation Commission, $83,000.
' Mr. GRAHAM: Is that the same as last 'year?


Robert Rogers: Yes.
Additional translator, Debates staff, $1,800.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Would his honour the Speaker state who has been definitely appointed chief of the French translators?


Mr. SPEAKER:: The acting chief is Mr. Trudel.


Rodolphe Lemieux: There is no chief?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: He has been doing the work since the former chief resigned. He receives $1,800.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I happen to read the French * Hansard ' because I take some interest in it, as I should, being a member of the French-Canadian representation in this House. We all take a certain pride in our mother tongue, and I am bound to say that although most of the translators are excellent, still there are a few who are not up to the mark. Yesterday I was reading the translation of a speech which I delivered

a week ago on the Farmers Bank and the Bank Ville Marie, and I discovered any number of faults and mistakes in the translation. I do not wish to censure the Speaker, far from it; but it seems to me that the Debates Committee has lost all power, and its existence is valueless to the House and to ' Hansard.' In former times the translators were called before the committee, underwent examination, and were selected by the committee. This has been done away with, and I must say that the change has not improved our French ' Hansard.' It is bad enough. I have no right, as a member of the loyal Opposition, to make any suggestions to my friend the Speaker; but his friends will tell him that I have possibly some knowledge of the French language; I claim to have some little knowledge of it; and the Speaker may believe me when I tell him that our French ' Hansard ' is not what it should be, because it lacks a director. On different occasions I have suggested the appointment as chief of that staff of an old friend of members on both sides of the House, Mr. Lucien Lasalle. He is not a political friend of mine; he is a good Conservative; hut he has not taken any part in politics for years. He is now senior of the staff and is admittedly one of the ablest translators I know of. How is it that he is passed over and ignored and a new man, also a personal friend	of	mine, Mr.	Trudel, is
appointed as acting chief translator?
Why	was	not	the senior,	and alsoone of	the	ablest translators	appointed?Friends	of	His	Honour the Speaker
will tell him that Mr. Lasalle has all the qualifications. It may he true that of late he has only had the use of one aTm, but that does not prevent him from discharging his duties efficiently. I am making these suggestions in the interests of those who read the French Debates, and I would humbly suggest that Your Honour be good enough to reconsider your decision in this matter. I am not passing judgment on Mr. Trudel. He is a very old friend of mine -we have known each other ever since we were at the university together-but Mr. Trudel will himself admit that he is not in line with Mr. Lasalle as a translator. I am sure that the Conservative members of this House would approve of Mr. Lasalle being appointed. He has been engaged in active journalism for over forty years, and has been a translator here for the last thirty years. He has the necessary ability, and if he were appointed chief I am sure

he would be a credit to the staff, and ' Hansard ' would read much better. He is the oldest translator, and knows the ropes thoroughly. In 1896, I appeared before the Debates Committee on behalf of Mr. Lasalle. Some hon. gentlemen wanted to have him dismissed because he had been taking part in politics, but I suggested to the committee that we should forget the past and consider Mr. Lasalle on his merits. The committee, then presided over by the late Senator Ellis, said: Very well, he shall remain on the staff, hut he must not take part in politics in the future. Mr. Lasalle has faithfully discharged his duties since that time. There are many translators as able as he, but he is the senior, and for these reasons I suggest that he be appointed.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 
Rodolphe Lemieux: Let us hope for the
better.


Edmond Proulx: When Mr. Desaulniers
was appointed five years ago he was put in the $1,600-$2,100 class, with a yearly increase of $50. His present salary is $1,800. He says he is doing the same kind of work as the other translators, and I do not see why he should not be placed in the $2,100-$2,800 class.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: He was put on at the
salary provided for that class, and is re-332
ceiving the same salary as the two pen I
have been speaking of. They have a yearly increase of $50 until they reach the maximum, $2,100, and then, of course, they .are eligible for promotion.


Edmond Proulx: These two new men started with $200 more.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They did. Mr. Desaulniers was appointed before this Government came into power at the salary the statute provided for that class. I have looked into the matter several times, both with the committee and otherwise, and I am credibly informed that without making a special vote each year he cannot get a higher salary until he reaches the maximum of his class and is promoted.


Edmond Proulx: Why not promote him?
Mr. SPERKlER: We cannot promote him over the heads of the others, nor until he reaches the maximum of his class.


Edmond Proulx: I have been informed that, besides these two new translators for whom we are providing salaries, he is the only one in the inferior class-that all the other translators are in the higher class.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: No, they are not.
Resolutions reported.



SUPPLY-CONCURRENCE.

[Stage Direction]
The House proceeded to consider resolutions reported from the Committee of Supply.
Edmond Proulx: That the resolutions Nos. SI to 101 inclusive; 390, 391, 392, 394, 395, 396, 397, 398, 399, 400, 401 and 402, be not now concurred in, but that they be referred back to the committee with instructions to reduce the aggregate of the said resolutions by the sum of $3,000,000.
He said: Mr. Speaker, as the hour is late, I do not wish to detain the House, and will offer only a few remarks. There is no doubt that the present Minister of Militia has inaugurated an era of extravagance. The expenditure for militia has increased by several millions since he became the head of the department. For a peaceful country like Canada, I think it is absurd to spend $14,000,000 on militia. We are not threatened with invasion, there is no neighbouring country that threatens to invade Canada; and I submit that to spend $14,000,000 on militia is a



foolish expenditure, when the country needs so much money for development, and when public works are demanded in every part of the country. The Government says that the revenues are not sufficient to build all the railways and public works needed, but they have enough money to 6pend on useless drill halls in small places, where there -are only four. or five hundred of a population, as was demonstrated by the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) the other day. The Minister of Militia finds money to take junketing tours through Europe with an anny of colonels and lieutenant colonels and honorary colonels, spending $25,000 of the good money of this country. iHe finds money to pay useless officers at headquarters, staff, officers who do not earn onehfth of their salary. Their main work is to go around in gold lace uniforms and to frequent the clubs. In fact, it became so notorious that last year even a Conservative newspaper, the Citizen, called them the 'Scotch and soda officers.' It seems that their main occupation is to go to the clubs. The Rideau Club is full of them; they go there to talk military matters and to take their Scotch and soda.
I am sorry I was not here last Saturday night. I did not think that the minister would take advantage of the small attendance of members at a Saturday night's sitting to get all his Estimates through. I wished to get some information with regard to the construction of the Connaught rifle range. I put a question on the Order Paper about the case of a young man named Healey, who was engaged to superintend the construction of cement walls. The minister said he was dismissed by his department. About forty bags of cement were found missing that were afterwards returned. It was very unjust, I will not say on the part of the minister, but of some officer, to put the blame on Healey, who was not the responsible party. Mr. Healey was engaged to superintend, first, the transportation of the cement from the station at South March to the works, a distance of about three miles, and Mr. Richardson, a good Conservative of Carle-ton, had the contract to transport that cement. Healey commenced to work in February, 1913, and, when the operations commenced in the spring, his duty was to superintend the mixing of cement. A Mr. Reid, a brother-in-law of Richardson, was constructing some concrete culverts, and

got short of cement. He borrowed about fifty bags of the cement which Mr. Richardson had the contract to convey to the works. That cement was afterwards returned by Mr. Reid, but the blame for its disappearance was put on Mr. Healey, who was dismissed on account of it. Mr. Healey is a respectable and honourable young man, and happens to be a L'.beral, which is so much the better for him. He never asked for the position; he was asked by the minister to take it. I think it was very unjust on the part of the minister, if he knew the facts, to put the blame on Mr. Healey and dismiss him, and to put a black mark against the name of this young man which will be on the records of Parliament foreveT.


Mr. MORPHY:: Was it marl cement or
rock?


Edmond Proulx: I am not sure about that. It whs to be used for building concrete walls. Mr. Healey told me that he was not on good terms with the foreman engaged by the contractors. They did not agree over the mixing of the cement. Healey insisted that more cement should he used in the construction than the foreman wanted. Healey also had difference with the engineer of the department and it may be that the engineer has made a report against him. But, if an investigation was held it could be proven that the engineer of the department had built a verandah to his summer house out of lumber belonging to the Government and also that Mr. Reid who was constructing the concrete culverts, employed a Mr. Thexton, an assistant engineer of the department, to draw the plans for these culverts and superintend their construction. I wish to put this on ' Hansard ' and I hope the minister will read it and do what is necessary in vindication of this young man Healey who has been so unjustly treated. I hope the minister will, read it, investigate the facts, and give a certificate of character to Mr. Healey.
Amendment (Mr. Proulx) negatived on division.
Resolutions read the second time and concurred in.



WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Mr. Rogers (Minister of Public Works), the House went into Committee of Ways and Means (Mr. Fowler in the Chair).
Robert Rogers: Resolved that towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the financial year ended March 31, 1914, the sum of $1,365,370 be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Robert Rogers: Resolved that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the financial year ending 31st of March, 1915, the sum of $126,465,667.86 be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the first and the second time, and concurred in.
Mr. ROGERS thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 228, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial years ending respectively the 31st March, 1914, and the 31st March, 1915.
Motion agreed to and Bill read the first and the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 2 a.m. Thursday.
Thursday, June 11, 1914.