1914-02-12

FIRST READINGS OF BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 63, respecting The Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company.-Mr. Currie.
Bill No. 64, respecting The London and Port Stanley Railway Company.-"Mr. Beattie.
Bill No. 65, respecting The McClary Manufacturing Company.-Mr. Beattie.
Bill No. 66, respecting The patent of the National Wood Distilling Company.-Mr. Clements.
(Bill No. 67, to incorporate The Norfolk and Elgin Railway Company.-Mr. Marshall.
Bill No. 68, respecting The Western Central Railway Company.-Mr. Henderson.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. COCHRANE presented report of the National Transcontinental railway Investigating Commission. He moved that this report be printed forthwith, and that rule 74 relative to the printing of papers be suspended for that purpose.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	What was the gross amount paid by all departments of the Government to H. P. Duche-min, commissioner, from the date of his appointment to December 31, 1913, for his services in connection with investigations of partisanship, including travelling and living expenses?
2.	Is he still in the employ of the Government? If not, when did his employment cease?
3.	How many days was he employed during the year 1913?
4.	How many dismissals of officials did the said Mr. Duchemin recommend in all departments in which he held investigations during the course of his employment by the Government?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	$1,664.85.
2.	If necessity required his services would be still available under his Commission, so far as the Department of Marine and Fisheries is concerned.
3.	Four and one-half days.
4.	Sixty-seven.


GRANBY POST OFFICE.
Mr. BOIVIN:: 1.	Is the Government aware that the post office box accommodation in tne post office at Granby, Quebec, is said to be far from sufficient to meet the requirements of the population?
2.	Does the Government propose to increase the number of boxes in the said post office? If so, when?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	There have been no complaints of inadequate lock box accommodation in the Granby post office.
2.	Inquiry will be made on the subject.


CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.
Mr. KYTE:: 1.	Excluding vacations, how often have the Civil Service Commissioners, or either of them, been absent from Ottawa since October 15, 1911, on business not connected with the commission?
2.	Was permission obtained for each such absence? If so, from whom?
3.	Since October 15, 1911, have the commissioners, or either of them, received remuneration for services not connected with the discharge of their duties as commissioners? If so, how much, and for what?
4.	How much has been paid to each commissioner for travelling expenses since October 15, 1911?


Mr. OODERRE:: 1.	Commissioner LaRochelle, 20 days. Commissioner Shortt, addressing Canadian clubs and similar institutions, 12 days. In western provinces in connection with duties as member of Statistical Commission, 4 weeks. As chairman of Board of Conciliation, Winnipeg, 13 days.
2.	No.
3.	No.
4.	Commissioner LaRochelle, $60.85. Commissioner Shortt, $576.01, in connection with duties as member of Statistical Commission. $132.45, as chairman of Board of Conciliation, Winnipeg (paid by Department of Labour).


OTTAWA IMPROVEMENT COMMISSION, HULL.
Mr. DEVLIN:: 1.	What sum or sums of money, if any, have been expended by the Government, or by the Ottawa Improvement Commission for the beaur tifying of the city of Hull, or that portion of its surroundings in the province of Quebec?
2.	If so, how has such money been expended?


Mr. OODERRE:: 1 and 2. $3,989.03 has been expended for beautifying the Hull city hall square during the fiscal year 1911-12


IMMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED STATES.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	How much has been paid to the Western Newspaper Union of the United States, since November, 1911, for immigration advertising matter?
2.	How many American immigrants have settled in Canada during the calendar years, 1911, 1912, and 1913?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	$113,775.38.
2.	1911, 131,114; 1912, 140,143; 1913, 115,751.


MONTREAL CIRCUIT COURT JUDGES.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Is it the intention of the Government to
increase the salaries of the Circuit Court fudges for the district of Montreal?	.
2.	Has the Minister of Justice considered the advisability of raising the status of said fudges to that of Superior Court fudges?


Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	The matter of judicial salaries is under consideration.
2.	Yes.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: Would the minister say whether he has considered it favourably or unfavourably?


Mr. DOHERTY:: I have considered it,
but perhaps it deserves further consideration.


QUEBEC SUPERIOR COURT JUDGES.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Is it the intention of the Government to increase the salaries of the Superior Court fudges residing in the rural district?
2.	Has the Minister of Justice received any memoranda to that effect?


Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	The matter of judicial salaries is under consideration.
2.	Yes.


DR. J. N. ROT.
Mr. C. A. WILSON:: 1.	Is the Government aware of the following item published in the newspaper La Patrie of the 10th of December, 1913 :
' Dr. J. N. Roy in the Argentine.
_	[DOT] Our fellow citizen is visiting in Los Toldos.
'and attention is being called to his presence there.
/The correspondent of La Nation, one of the Buenos Aires leading Spanish papers, points out in the following words the visit of our fellow countryman at Los Toldos and his studies there.
' Dr. J. N. Roy, entrusted by the Canadian Government with the care of conducting special studies on compared pathology of the eye, ear, nose and throat diseases among the different races, is at present time in Los Toldos, back from a trip to Africa. Mr. Roy is travelling in South America, studying amongst the Indians the diseases relating to his special knowledge. Accompanied by Dr. Dias Icasto and by a son of Sam Cauligueo, actual chief of the important tribe of the Araneanas, he has spent three days visiting the native schools and the principal places where the Indians live.
' Dr. Roy is delighted with his stay with us, and says he has learned in the Indian centres most interesting things as far as medicine goes, and which he intends publishing when he is back home.
' He will leave in a few days for Chili, and from there to Bolivia and Peru, so as to pursue his studies with the Incas. Mr. Roy, who has been travelling for fifteen months, will be back at Montreal Canada, about the end of December.'
* 2. Are the facts contained in that article true?
3.	Has Dr. J. N. Roy been instructed by the Canadian Government to make the above mentioned studies on compared pathology?
4.	Is Dr. J. N. Roy back in Canada?
5.	Has he made a report of his trip and studies to the Government? If not, when is he going to make it?
6.	Has Dr. J. N. Roy been sent on such mission, and on what conditions?
7.	Has Dr. J. N. Roy received any fees or payments whatever for his services up to the present time, and how much is he to get when his work is completed?
8.	Are there any orders in council or other documents in connection with Dr. J. N. Roy's appointment? If so, what are the conditions thereof?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	No.
2.	As far as the reference to the Government is concerned, yes.
3.	Dr. Roy's mission was given official recognition in view of the scientific value of the research work in which he was to be engaged.
4.	No information.

5.	No. No information.
6.	Answered by No. 3.
7.	No.
8.	No,-except as answered by No. 3.


HON. R. LEMIEUX'S ASIATIC TRIP.
Mr. SEXSMITH:: 1.	Who accompanied the Honourable R. Lemieux on his Asiatic trip?
2.	How many stenographers accompanied or were employed by him or his staff, and at what cost?
3.	How many servants or valets were in oi were engaged for the party?
4.	How many ladies, including wives, daughters or other persons, accompanied the
- party?
5.	Were the expenses of the said ladies, or any portion thereof, paid by the Government of Canada, directly or indirectly?
6.	What was the total cost to Canada for the whole party?
7.	What sums or contributions were paid by the Government of Great Britain and Ireland towards the expenses of this trip?
8.	What sums or contributions were paid of the Government of any other colony or country towards the expenses of this trip?


Mr. PELLETIER:: I.	His private secretary. The Under Secretary of State, and his secretary.
2 and 3. The department has no official knowledge about this.
4.	The wife of the ex-Postmaster General.
5.	There is nothing in the department about this.
6.	$10,000.
7 and 8. None, to the knowledge of the
department.


HON. R. LEMIEUX'S SOUTH AFRICAN TRIP.
Mr. BEST:: 1.	Who accompanied the Honourable R. Lemieux on his South African trip?
2.	How many stenographers accompanied or were employed by him or his staff, and at what cost?
3.	How many servants or valets were in or were engaged for the party?
4.	How many ladies, .including wives daughters or other persons, accompanied the party ?
5.	Were the expenses of the said ladies, or any portion thereof, paid by the Government of Canada, directly or indirectly?
6.	What was the total cost to Canada for the whole party?
7.	What sums or contributions were paid by the Government of Great Britain and Ireland towards the expenses of this trip?
8.	What expenses were paid by the Government of any other colony or country for this trip?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	His private secretary.
2,	3, 4, 5, 7 and 8. The department has no official knowledge.
6.	$5,866.67.


NANAIMO STRIKE-PRISONER'S DEATH.
[Stage Direction]
""[DOT]Mr. LEMIEUX:
1.	Has the attention of the Minister of Justice been called to the following extract from an article published in the Ottawa Citizen of February 4 inst. on the Nanaimo strike:
' One miner's boy, innocent of any offence, died in prison a few days ago. He had been advised that if he pleaded guilty he would be let off with a nominal sentence. He took the advice, but instead of an acquittal he received a heavy sentence and died in jail. The editor of the Vancouver World, Mr. L. D. Taylor, refers t.o the miner boy's death as "blood that calls from the ground." '
2.	Is the fact above stated true?
Mr. DOHERTY:: 1.	Not otherwise than by the present question.
2.	The minister has had a letter informing him that a prisoner of twenty-one years of age died at the Oakalla, B.C., prison farm in the month of January, 1914. In a letter of the 29th December last, asking for clemency, the parents of this prisoner stated that his own counsel advised him to plead guilty ' but that it was as the prisoner understood, he would get off with the time already served namely three months.' The minister has no information that any advice was given save by the prisoner's own counsel. The information of the department is that the prisoner took an active part in the rioting in connection with which he was prosecuted. In the letter referred to asking for clemency, no representation was made that the prisoner was in bad health. The prison farm in question is a provincial institution, over which the Department of Justice has no control.


NATIONAL, TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY-EXPROPRIATION CASES.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	How many expropriation cases are still pending before the Exchequer Court in connection with the right of way of the National Transcontinental railway for its entrance to Quebec, between the site of the Quebec bridge and the terminal station in said city?
2.	What is the total amount claimed?
3.	What is the amount offered?
4.	Who are the counsel representing the Crown in each case?
5.	Who are the counsel representing the claimants in each case?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	The King vs. M. P. Davis; the King vs. Alf. Dombrowski; the King vs. Frank
Ross.	.
2.	Amount claimed:	M. P. Davis,
$326,675; Alf. Dombrowski, $4,627.47; Frank Ross, $250,000.
3.	Amount offered: M. P. Davis, $7,275;
Alf. Dombrowski, $1,729; Frank Ross, $79,700.
4.	Counsel for the Crown: The King vs. M. P. Davis, L. Moraud, Quebec; the King vs. Alf. Dombrowski, Gagne & Gagne, Quebec; the. King vs. Frank Ross, E. Belleau and E. J. Flynn, Quebec.
5.	Counsel for Claimant: The King vs. M. P. Davis, Pentland, Stuart, Gravel & Thomson, Quebec; the King vs. Alf. Dombrowski, Belleau & Belleau, Quebec; the King vs. Frank Ross, Pentland, Stuart, Gravel & Thomson, Quebec.
The case of Frank Ross was tried by Judge Audette and judgment delivered November 18, 1913, awarding defendant $134,760.84, with interest and costs, but the amount has not yet been paid.
THE KING vs. FALARDEAU.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Has the indemnity been paid in the expropriation case of His Majesty the King vs. Alfred Olivier Falardeau and Constant Napoleon Falardeau?
2.	What was the amount offered by the Crown?
3.	What was the amount paid?
4.	What was the date of the payment of said indemnity?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	$39,000 in court.
3.	$69,256, judgment of court; $3,381.37, interest at 5 per cent; total, $72,637.37.
4.	January 12, 1914.


ONTARIO EQUIPMENT COMPANY.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Have any purchases been made by the Post Office Department from the Ontario Equipment Company since 1st March, 1913?
2.	If so, what is the nature of such purchases, and the quantity and prices paid?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Locks, 4,435 at 80 cents, $3,548; 15,000 at 70 cents, $10,500; $14,048. Steel ferrules for ends of cords on newspaper sacks, 150,000 at $12.50 per 1,000, $1,875. Metal slip fasteners and label holders, 30,930 at 25 cents each, $7,732.50; 'Attached' label cases, 10,000 at 5 cents each, $500. Keys for mail locks, 12,959 at 20 cents each, $2,591.80; $26,747.30.


CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY PACIFIC TERMINUS.
Mr. EMMERSON:: 1.	What port on the Pacific coast, if any, has been selected by the Canadian Northern railway corporation and approved by the Minister of Railways and the Board of Railway

Commissioners, as the western terminus of their Transcontinental railway system?
2.	Did they ever select, with such approval, Port Mann, in British Columbia? If so, has any change in location of such terminals been made?
3.	Is the Government aware that it was said to have been announced to the public that Port Mann, B.C., had been so selected, and that the result was that lands at that place were sold in eastern Canada at high figures, on the strength of that announcement?
4.	Is the Government aware that it is now announced, as alleged, that Vancouver has been selected by that railway corporation as to their western terminus with the result that the lands so sold and purchased at Port Mann are practically worthless?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	The Minister of Railways and Canals lias given no approval.
2,	3 and 4. The department has no information.
NOVA SCOTIA COLD STORAGE PLANTS. Mr. SINCLAIR:
1.	What assistance was given by the Department of Marine and Fisheries or the Department of Agriculture, in the years 1908, 1909, 1910, 1911, 1912 and 1913 to firms and joint stock or other companies operating cold storage plants in the province of Nova Scotia, excluding the smaller companies known as Fishermen's Bait Association, and what is the name of each of the said firms or companies and the amount paid to each for each of the years above mentioned ?


Mr. BURRELL:: 1. Under the 'Cold Storage Act' assistance has been given through the Department of Agriculture as follows:
Halifax Cold Storage Company, Port Hawkesbury, N. S.:-
Fiscal Tear.
1907-	08	
1908- 09	$ 6,685 06
1909-	10	
1,215	461910-	11	
1,607	731911-	12	1912-	13	
607	73Total	:	$ 9,n5 98
The Lockeport Cold Storage Company, (Maritime Cold Storage Company) Locke-porte, N.S:-
Fiscal Year.
1907-	08	
1908-	09	
1909-	10	
1910-	11	
1911- 12	$ 8,527 53
1912- 13	 3,979 51
Total	$12,507 04
Assistance was given through the Department of Marine and Fisheri"0 as follows:

1907-08-Halifax Cold Storage Co..$ 2,000 00
Canso Cold Storage Co		682 11
1908-	09-Halifax Cold Storage Co.. 2,000 00
-Canso Cold Storage Co. ..	413 98
1909-	10	
1910-	11	
Nil.1911-	12-J. Arch. MacDonnell.. ..	1,000 00
- " " .... 1,000 00
1912-	13-Gardiner & Doon	1,043 501913-	14-J. Foster Rood	
712 33


ST. THEODORE D'ACTON RURAL MAIL SERVICE.
*Mr. MARCILE:: 1.	Is it the intention of the Postmaster General to establish a rural mail service in the parish of St. Theodore d'Acton? If so, when?
2.	Have tenders been advertised for the conveyance of the mail between the Acton Vale and the district known as No. 1 of such rural service and also for the one known as No. 2?
3.	How many tenders have been received by the department?
4.	What is the respective names of the tenderers and the amount of each of them?
5.	Will the contract or contracts be granted to the lowest tenderer?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Yes, as soon as satisfactory offers have been received for the performance of the mail services.
2,	3, 4 and 5. Tenders have been invited, but the prices asked are considered too high, and the department is now endeavouring to secure lower offers.


ACTON VALE MAIL CARRIER .
*Mr. MARCILE:: 1.	Has Mr. Ed. Heneault, mail carrier between the Canadian Pacific railway station and the post office at Acton Vale been replaced? If so, by whom?
2.	What salary does the latter receive?
3.	What was Mr. Ed. Heneault's salary as mail conveyer?
4.	Did the department offer Mr. Heneault the same salary?
5.	Have tenders been asked for?
6.	If so, what is the name of each tenderer and the amount of each tender? If not, why not?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Mr. Heneault objected to completing his contract unless paid $150 per annum. Later he asked $125 per annum. His contract contained a clause providing for its termination by three months' notice. This was given and a new contract made with
E.	Leclerc.
2.	$125 per annum.
3.	$75 per annum.
4.	No. When a contractor fails to complete a contract the department prefers to deal with other persons.
5.	No. The amount was under $200 per

annum, and the department considered the offer of Leclerc a reasonable one.
6.	Answered by No. 5.


FASTENING OF MAIL BAGS.
Mr. BOURASSA:: 
Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	No.
2.	The Postmaster General is not aware that any mail bags in use in this vicinity are not properly fastened. Inquiry will be made about it.


ARCADIA RURAL MAIL ROUTE.
Mr. LAW:: 1.	Has the application been made to the Post Office Department for a rural mail delivery route between Arcadia and East Chebogue post offices?
2.	If so, has it been established? If not, when will it be?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No. Inquiry into the matter has not yet been completed, and until the inspector's report has been submitted it is impossible to give the probable date of establishment.


ST. MALO CAR SHOPS.
Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Has any change been made in the schedule prices of Mr. Joseph Gosselin's tender for the locomotive and car shops at St. Malo, Que., since the contract for the said shops was awarded to him by Order in Council on October 8, 1913?
2.	If so, to what class of material does the change relate?
3.	At what price per yarn did Mr. Gosselin tender for the said material?
4.	What increased price, if any, is he to be paid for the said material?
5.	Who conducted the negotiations by which such increased price, if any, was arranged?
6.	Were the said negotiations carried on by correspondence or telegrams? If so, between whom?
7.	Was an Order in Council passed authorizing an increase in any of the prices contained in Mr. Gosselin's tender? If so, what is its date?
8.	Did the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company agree to a change in price? If so, what is the date of the document signifying their agreement?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1 and 2. A schedule price has been arranged for excavating frozen earth.
3.	85 cents per cubic yard was tendered for common excavation, including backfilling, distributing, levelling off, &c., but no tender for frozen earth.
4.	During the months of January, February and March, 1914, $2.30 per cubic yard is to be paid for the excavation of frozen earth only.
5.	Mr. W. J. Press, mechanical engineer under instruction from the chief engineer.
6.	Both by correspondence and telegram (See answer to No. 5).
7.	Yes, January 14, 1914, approving the price of $2.30 per cubic yard for frozen earth only as stated in answer to No. 4.
8.	No.


THORBURN RAILWAY COMMUNICATION.
Mr. MACDONALD:: Does the Railway Department intend to provide any railway communication with the town of Thorburn on the line of railway now existing there?


Francis Cochrane: The matter has not
been decided.


PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND WINTER SERVICE.
William John Macdonald: What was the cost of labour in connection with the handling of freight and loading of coal respectively at the ports of Pictou, Charlottetown and Georgetown, respectively, in connection with the winter service to Prince Edward Island for January, 1914?


Mr. HAZEN:: Pictou: handling freight, $1,281.36; handling coal, $846; total, $2,127.36.
Charlottetown: handling freight, $1,234.34.
Georgetown: handling freight, $265.72.


PURE BRED STOCK.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Has the Minister of Agriculture announced or authorized the anouncement in Nova Scotia of any policy of providing pure bred stock?
2.	If so, when was the announcement made and by whom?
3.	Does the minister intend to permit the existing agricultural societies in Nova Scotia to take advantage of any arrangements he is making in regard to pure bred stock in that province?
4.	What arrangements has the minister made in regard to the distribution of pure bred stock in Nova Scotia and with whom?


Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Under date of April 26, 1913, by the Live Stock Commissioner.
3.	No. All applications submitted must be presented by associations formed in accordance with the regulations outlined in

the pamphlet announcing the policy of the department, which will be tabled.
An association may be organized amongst the members of an agricultural society in Nova Scotia, but their application, when presented, must then be approved under the conditions outlined in the pamphlet pertaining to the location in any district of pure bred animals.
4.	Arrangements have been made for the distribution of pure bred stock in Nova Scotia through the Live Stock Branch of the department, in accordance with the conditions outlined in the pamphlet above mentioned.
Supplementary information connected with this question is being laid on the table of the House.


ELMIRA POST OFFICE.
[Stage Direction]
*M. J. J. HUGHES:
1.	Has the Post Office Department received a petition from the residents of Elmira, P.E.I., complaining of the manner in which the post office of that place is managed, and of the uncivil and discourteous conduct of the postmaster, and asking for an investigation?
2.	If so, will the Postmaster General have an investigation held, and report the result to the House?
Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Complaint was received and duly referred to the inspector for report.
2.	It would appear from the report of the inspector that the postmaster, who was only appointed in November last, did not fully understand his responsibilities, but he has now been fully instructed and has promised to render proper service to the public.


FISHERY ADVISORY BOARD.
Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: 1.	What amounts have been paid to each of the several members of the Fishery Advisory Board for time spent in discharge of the duties of the office?
2.	What amounts have been paid to each for travelling, and what amount for other expenses?


John Douglas Hazen: Travelling Allowance, expenses.
C.	H. B. Longworth .. .. $230	00	$224	56H. B. Short	
220	00	225	90Gideon Hemeon	
220 00	202 80W. C. Smith	
210	00	185	70Andrew King	F.	T. B. Young	
200	00	191	21A. B. Carson	
160	00	129	80P. P. Russell	
180	00	154	10Azade Arseneault	
290	00	151	85D.	F. Reid	
90	00	109	50J. E. Sinclair	
110	00	178	75C. D. Melvill	
140	00	219	40D. M. McIntyre	
280 00	475 00F. H. Cunningham	
515	05Deputy Minister of Marine and Fisheries	
45	40
Deputy Minister of Naval
Service	
Superintendent of Fisheries	
87	85Commissioner of Fisheries	
96	55Assistant to Superintendent of Fisheries	Fishery expert	
79	26


NEW GLASGOW ARMOURY SITE.
Mr. MACDONALD:: 1.	Has any examination been had or report been made as to the site of a proposed armoury at New Glasgow, Nova Scotia?
2.	If so, on what street has the site been recommended?
3.	Has the department been advised that the town of New Glasgow has agreed to donate a site for an armoury in that town?
4.	If so, on what street is the site located which they propose to donate?
Mr. SAM. HUGHES:
1.	Yes.
2.	Not finally settled.
3.	Yes.
4.	Not finally settled.


ONTARIO DRILL HALLS AND ARMOURIES.
Mr. PARDEE:: 1.	How many drill halls and armouries have been built in the province of Ontario during the years 1912 and 1913?
2.	At what places have they been built?
3.	What is the cost of each?
4.	How many are now under construction?
Mr. SAM. HUGHES:
1.	23.
2.	and 3. Built by Department of Militia
and Defence.
Kincardine, Ont	$ 8,394 00
Mount Forest, Ont	
3,000	00Wingham, Ont	
11,503	00Watford, Ont	
12,154	00Port Elgin, Ont	
2,916	00Oshawa, Ont	
53,450	00Meaford, Ont	
17,720	00Markdale, Ont	
14,278	00Simcoe, Ont	
30,336	80Brampton, Ont	
17,765	00Orillia, Ont	
24,657	60Gananoque, Ont	
15,456	00Omemee, Ont	
11,434	64Norwood, Ont	
10,006	50Picton, Ont	
65,570	00Millbrook, Ont	11,991	00Madoc, Ont	
20,861	00Orono, Ont	
12,758	50Blackstock, Ont	13,661	00Alexandria, Ont	
18,285	50Kemptville, Ont	
12,154	00Renfrew, Ont	
39,502	00Lindsay, Ont	
46,946	00
4. 15.


CANCELLED MAIL CONTRACTS.
Mr. SINCLAIR:: Why has the Order of the House, passed in February, 1913, asking for a return showing the number of mail contracts cancelled in the province of Nova Scotia, not been complied with?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: A general return of contracts terminated in all provinces of the Dominion was prepared by order of the House. The return was sent to the Secretary of State on the 11th instant.


CANSO LETTER BOXES.
John Howard Sinclair: Referring to the reply given to a question asked by the member for Richmond, Nova Scotia, in which it was stated that on October 17, 1913, letter boxes were placed in the village of Chesley, South Bruce, which has a population of 1,710, is it the intention of the Post Office Department to furnish letter boxes for the town of Canso, Nova Scotia, which has a population of over 2,000?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: In establishing street letter box services, the department does not consider population so much as the amount of postal business transacted as indicated by the revenue, and also the local conditions which would make such accommodation necessary in the public interest.
The revenue of Chesley, in South Bruce, for the last fiscal year, was $5,346.93, and that of Canso, N.S., $2,329.69.
No application has been received for the establishment of a street letter box service at Canso. The population of Canso, according to the census of 1911, was 1,617.


BLACK CAPE POST OFFCE.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Was an inquiry held by the Post Office Department before the closing of the post office of Black Cape East, Bonavemure, Quebec, by a disinterested official of that department, as requested by J. Narcisse Cyr, mayor, Rev. J. Thomas Fortin, parish priest, Dr. Ernest G. Cyr, and fifty other citizens of that locality, in their petition to the Postmaster General, dated February 24, 1913?
2.	If such inquiry was held, by whom was it held, when and what were the conclusions arrived at?
3.	If no inquiry was held, why not?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: No inquiry was held in this matter, as an inquiry was not considered necessary. Representations were made to the department that the office,
the revenue of which was only $25 per annum, while it cost for maintenance $83 per annum, was not required and was a cause of useless expense to the department. Instructions were, therefore, given for the closing of this office.


DTJTHIE POINT LIGHTHOUSE.
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Has the Department of Marine and Fisheries ordered that the Duthie Point lighthouse be discontinued after the present season?
2.	If so, on whose recommendation is this being done and on what grounds?
3.	Is the building itself to be removed and where to?
4.	Is it true that the light is to be placed on Maria wharf? If so, at whose request is this being done, and what official of the department, if any, has advised to this effect?
5.	If this change is to be made, who is to be in charge of the new light, what is to be his salary and who recommended his appointment?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	The department has ordered the discontinuance of the light at Duthie Point.
2.	(a) On the recommendation of the Lighthouse Board of Canada; (b) on the ground that the abolition of Duthie Point light and the establishment of a light on Maria wharf would better safeguard navigation.
3.	Not yet decided.
4.	(a) Light is to be placed on Maria wharf; (b) at the request of the Lighthouse Board of Canada; (c) Lieut. Col. W. P. Anderson, C.M.G., chief engineer; Mr. J.
G.	Macphail, commissioner of lights; Mr. V. W. Forneret, superintending engineer St. Lawrence ship channel, being members of the lighthouse board.
5.	No arrangement has yet been made foi keepership.


BROME RURAL MAIL ROUTES.
Mr. KAY:: 1.	What are the names of the tenderers for the rural mail routes leading from Brigham, county of Brome?
2.	What was the amount of each tender, and who was the successful tenderer?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: 1 and 2. Tenders for Brigham rural route No. 1: Napoleon Dupuis, $595 per annum; Alfred Gordon, $781.50 per annum. The lowest tender was accepted.
Tenders for Brigham rural route No. 2: George T. Burnett, $585 per annum, reduced to $560; Arthur E. Moynan, $563 per annum; Roy Stowe, $600 per annum. The contract was awarded to George T. Burnett at the amount of his reduced tender.


LA HAVE ISLANDS MAIL SERVICE.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	Who Is the contractor for the mail service between West Dublin and La Have Islands, Lunenburg county, N.S.?
2.	What is the amount received therefor, and when was the contract awarded?
3.	Prom whom were tenders received, and for what amounts respectively, when tenders were last solicited for this mail service?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Elijah Corkum.
2.	The amount is $135 per annum and the contract was awarded on September 26, 1913.
3.	Elijah Corkum, $170 per annum, reduced to $135; Gorden Romkey, $140; Z. Publicover, $158; C. E. Publieover, $160.


HALIFAX ARMOURIES.
Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1. Has an assistant caretaker been recently appointed for the Halifax armouries? If so, whom? If not, when will the vacancy be filled?
Mr. SAM. HUGHES:
1. No. A labourer has recently been appointed, Mr. Timothy Regan.


SESSIONAL MESSENGER.
Mr. BOULAY:: 1. Is there a special messenger for the Sergeant-at-Arms of the House of Commons? If so, what is his name and salary?


Mr. BORDEN:: Yes. Thomas Boles, a sessional messenger; paid $3 per diem.


EDMUDSTON IMMIGRATION OFFICE.
Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	Has the Government rented an office' to be used by the immigration agent at Edmunston, N.B.?
2.	If so, why is said office not occupied?
3.	How much rent was paid to the lessor till the 31st of December last?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Department understands office is used, for purposes for which it is rented.
3.	$100 at the rate of $10 per month, heat, light and telephone included.


UNOPPOSED AND UNDISCUSSED MOTIONS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. Bourassa.-For a return showing the names of the postmasters wno have been dismissed in the county of Levis since the month of September, 1911; the number of dismissed postmasters since the month of September, 1911, who have been appointed in the place of the postmasters dismissed under the late Administration, and the names of the postmasters who were dismissed under the late Administration.
fMr. Pelletier. ]
Mr. McCraney.-For a return showing how many towns in the province of Ontario have a population larger than the town of Chesley, South Riding of Bruce, which was 1,734, according to the last census, and how many of such towns are served by letter boxes on the street.
Mr. Sinclair.-For a return showing what was the local minimum rate of freight on small parcels on the Intercolonial railway prior to October 10, 1911, and also the present rate on the same.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Rodolphe Lemieux: I wish to rise to a question of privilege, having regard to the answers given by the hon. Postmaster General to certain questions asked to-day by the hon. member for Peterborough East (Mr. Sexsmith) with regard to an official trip I made in 1911. I do not take objection to all of the answers, but, in order to elucidate matters, some little explanation is required on my part with regard to one or two of them. The first question is as follows:
Who accompanied the Hon. Mr. Lemieux on his Asiatic trip?
The answer to this is absolutely correct:
His private secretary, the Under Secretary of State and his secretary.
The second and third questions are:
How many stenographers accompanied him or were employed by him or his staff, and at what cost?
How many servants or valets were in or were engaged for the party?
The very able answer given by my hon. friend is as follows:
The department has no official knowledge about this.
I say that my hon. friend could have had the information for this, as he had for the other questions, from my secretary, who is still in the employ of his department; and my hon. friend, in courtesy to myself, would have been able to answer that there were no servants, no valets and no stenographers except my private secretary, as my hon. friend answered question one.
Question 5 reads:
Were the expenses of the said ladies or any portion thereof, paid by the Government of Canada, directly or indirectly.
To this the reply was:
There is nothing in the department about this.
I say this answer is not clear, and my hon. friend should have been able to ascertain from my private secretary, who is still in the employ of the department, if any moneys were paid for ladies accompanying

the Postmaster General on that trip. To questions 7 and 8, I have nothing to say, except that if my hon. friend would inquire from the gentleman who was my private secretary at the time, he would know that there were contributions, not from the Imperial Government of Great Britain, but from the Government of Japan, in connection with that trip. I want to elucidate this matter so as to leave no doubt in the minds of hon. gentlemen.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Surely the hon. member for Rouville is not very serious in saying that I should have gone to his former private secretary to get information for the House. I would think that I was bound to give an answer from the files in the department. I once gave information to the House which came from my hon. friend's former private secretary, and it has been used against me to such an extent that I am not going to do so any more.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Then I say that the
answer given by my hon. friend is not honest.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The answer is
straight and honest, much more than Berard, of Gouin, Lemieux & Berard could give.
Mr. (SPEAKER: The observation of the hon. member (Mr. Lemieux) is scarcely in order, as the rule is laid down quite clearly that the answer as given by a minister must be accepted, whether it covers the whole of the question or not. The point raised by the hon. gentleman is scarcely a question of privilege, but rather an explanation, which, of course, the hon. member would be quite entitled to make.



MOTOR BOATS AND THE MILITIA.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Hon. H. R. EMSMERSON:: I would ask
the Minister of Militia and Defence if his attention has been called to an article in one of the Government organs, the Mail, published in the city of Montreal, in this morning's issue. It bears the following headline:
Propose to organize fleets of power boats. Militia Department plans picturesque auxiliary to fighting forces of Canada, utilizing yachtsmen and boatmen of the Dominion.
Is there any truth in this rumour?
Hon. SAM. HUGHES (Minister of Militia) :	I know nothing whatever about the
matter. It may have been all prearranged 45
but I do not know anything about it. I have no information about anything of the kind.



PLBLIC WORKS AT FREDERICTON.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Mr. CARVELL:: I desire to call the attention of the Prime Minister, in the absence of the Minister of Public Works, to an article in the St. John Globe of February 10, copied, as I understand, from the Fredericton Gleaner of a previous date, which paper I was unable to get in the reading room as I was told that a member had it out. It is this statement from the hon. member for York (Mr. McLeod):
Moreover I am in a position to announce that Hon. Robert Rogers, Minister of Public Works, has promised me two new concrete wharfs for Frederiction and instructions have already been wired to Mr. J. K. Scammel, Public Works Department divisional engineer, to have his staff of engineers come here at once and make the surveys preparatory to getting the plans and specifications out so that tenders can be called for and the work started at the earliest possible moment.
There is an election pending in York for the local legislature, the nomination takes place to-day and the election one week from to-day.


Mr. SPEAKER:: The hon. member is
scarcely keeping within the rules of order. In the first place, I may say that the practice of bringing in papers, reading articles from them and basing on those articles charges, is not one that has been tolerated to any great extent in the Imperial Parliament. I think the same rule would be a very good one here.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: But it has
been followed to a great extent in this House.
Mr. (SPEAKER:	Unfortunately it has,
but when that is done I do not think it is permissible to go on and comment on it.
If it is desired to ask a question, that will be allowed.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not know how I
could make my question intelligible to the hon. member if I did not explain the matter as fully as I have done. I want to ask if it be a fact that the Minister of Public ' Works has promised the hon. member, Mr. McLeod, two new concrete wharfs in the city of Fredericton and the instructions have been wired to Mr. Scammel, the department engineer, to make the surveys preparatory to beginning the work at once.


Robert Laird Borden: I hope my hon. friend
will realize that I really am not able to keep in touch with all the administrative affairs of thirty different departments of the Government, and therefore I have no information whatever on the subject. I shall direct the attention of the Minister of Public Works to the hon. gentleman's question without delay.



PROVINCIAL ELECTIONS AND DOMINION OFFICIALS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Mr. OLIVER:: The day before yesterday the Minister of Public Works promised to give information to me and to the House as to the source of an alleged interview from which he read during the course of the discussion. He has not seen fit to do it and I am awaiting the information.


Robert Laird Borden: I shall direct the attention of the Minister of Public Works to the hon. gentleman's inquiry.



RULES OF THE HOUSE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Mr. VERVILLE:: I rise to a question of privilege in respect to the taking of to-day (Thursday) as a Government day. I raise this question owing to the fact that there are many Public Bills now on the Order Paper that may not be reached again this session. In the session of 1910, November 17 was the opening day and I presented my Eight-hour Bill for its second reading on the 15th of December, which was the fifth Thursday of the session. On the previous night the leader of the Government to-day, who was then leader of the Opposition, asked the minister who was leading the House, Hon. Wm. Paterson, about this matter, and he was told by Mr. Paterson that the next day was not a Government day. The right hon. leader of the Opposition will find that at page 1338 of the ' Hansard ' of 1910. At page 1407 of the same volume he will find the report of the second reading of the Eight-hour Bill. I would like to know why this thing has been changed. I have no doubt there are many members anxious to present Bills who will now not have a chance this session.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: As I was consulted
about that, I may say that it seems clear to me that as the House opened on Thursday the 15th, the first four weeks of the session ended on Wednesday last. The rule provides that during the first four weeks of the session, Thursday shall be reserved for

private members, after which it becomes a Government day. My impression is, and I am so advised by the clerk, that the four weeks were up on Wednesday night last, and therefore of course Thursday becomes a Government day.


Alphonse Verville: I think it would be
unfair if I were not allowed to proceed with my Bill. I am just speaking for myself, and I would like to ask whether the Prime Minister will give me an opportunity of bringing it before the House at some future date. I am registering this protest, because I remember in a previous session, private members were granted the first five Thursdays.


Robert Laird Borden: I am informed by the
clerk-I have no personal knowledge of it- that the question the hon. gentleman has raised was debated on one occasion in this House, and that the practice under the rule was settled some years ago. However, I shall obtain exact information and furnish it to my hon. friend and to the House generally on some future occasion.


Wilfrid Laurier: The question
really is: when does the first week of the session commence. We met here on Thursday. The question is whether the session commenced on Thursday or on the following day. It is clear we cannot do anything on the first day we meet, and I think the first week should commence on the following day, Friday. But, if you are going to count the week as beginning from the day we first met the contention of Mr. Speaker is right. I think a liberal interpretation should be given to the rule, and that the week should commence on Friday.


Robert Laird Borden: There was a tradition a number of years ago, that the first day was not To be counted in respect to the attendance of members, but I think that practice is entirely done away with and that the opening day is now counted as the first day.


Wilfrid Laurier: It would be
counted as one of the 15 days of absence.


Robert Laird Borden: If Parliament opens on
Thursday, then following the terms of the rule I suppose the week ends on the following Wednesday. However, the clerk tells me the subject has been discussed-


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not remember.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not either. I shall make inquiry, and if there is anything further to be said, I shall be glad to inform my right hon. friend.



COLD STORAGE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Rodolphe Lemieux: * Might I ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture whether the statement appearing in this morning's Gazette, is true: that a Bill for cold storage is going to be introduced by the hon. gentleman. I wish to ask whether it is a substitute for the Bill already introduced this session by my hon. friend from Selkirk (Mr. G. H. Bradbury).


Mr. BURRELL:: The whole matter is
under consideration and it is quite probable the Government will introduce the measure. I cannot give any further information.



QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Hon. T. W. CROTHERS:: I desire to say a word or two on a question of privilege. Yesterday's Toronto Globe, unfair and untruthful as usual, reported me as having expressed myself hostile to labour unions. The article is headed: ' Hostile to unions is Minister of* Labour and, referring to myself, it says:
He practically declared that the Government was against international labour unionism in Canada.
I isaid nothing whatever on the occasion referred to by this reporter, which by any honest man could be twisted into any such statement. I have addressed working people from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and on every occasion I have advised them, in their own interests, to join labour unions regardless of whether they were national or international. There is no ground whatever for the statement contained in The Globe, and I think the man who wrote it, knew that.



REPRESENTATION IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: I wish to ask the Prime Minister for an explanation of a statement he made on Tuesday last, when introducing the Redistribution Bill. The Prime Minister, referring to Prince Edward Island, said as reported in ' Hansard.'
It has been noted that in 1882 the Redistribution Bill did not diminish the representation 45J
of the province of Prince Edward Island, although according to the census of 1881, Prince Edward Island was at that time entitled to no more than five members. At first I was very much impressed by this circumstance, but I observed that in a speech made by the hon. member for Kings, Prince Edward Island, in 1903, who argued strongly and forcibly against the claims put forward on behalf of the province at that time, he attributed this result to the fact that there was no previous census with which the census of 1881 could be compared for the purposes of subsection 4 of section 51 of the British North America Act so far as-Prince Edward Island is concerned, and probably that accounts for the result in 1882.
I wish to ask the Prime' Minister what claims were put forward on behalf of Prince Edward Island at that time, and by whom? I also ask him when and how I argued against such claims. I have looked through ' Hansard ' of 1903, and I can find nothing there to warrant, in my judgment, the Prime Minister making that statement.


Robert Laird Borden: I certainly read in the debate of 1903 the observations to which I alluded. I will endeavour to find them again and send Ithe hon. (gentleman a memorandum. I do not think there will be any difficulty about that.



RULES OF THE HOUSE.

[Stage Direction]
On the order being called for Committee of Supply:
Robert Laird Borden: Would it be convenient for me to take up the estimates of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police?


Wilfrid Laurier: I have no objection at all, but before we pass to the discussion of the Estimates there is a question of procedure which I would like to settle with my right hon. friend. On Tuesday the House was moved into Committee of Supply, and we discussed the Labour Department Estimates. Then I understand that to-day, the Speaker leaving the Chair, we can go again into Supply on the Department of Labour Estimates, Because they were taken up on a day other than Thursday or Friday. When my hon. friend moved the House into Committee of Supply for the first time some days ago-it was on Friday and, Mr. Speaker was in the Chair -I raised the point that the Chair could not be left on that day and no Supply taken because no department had then been discussed. My right hon. friend seemed to agree with me, and I understood him to say that on that day we were proceeding by consent of the House, and that therefore it would not constitute- a precedent.
No Estimates of a department could be

taken up unless it had been discussed on a day other than Thursday or Friday. If my construction is right, my right hon. friend could not go into the Department of the Northwest Mounted Police to-day because it has not been discussed on any other day except the days to which I have alluded. I raise the point, not because I want to prevent my hon. friend from going on, but just to ascertain what his idea as to the rule is.


Robert Laird Borden: I think that my right hon. friend (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) and I are absolutely at one in regard to that. We can take up, as I understand it, without consent, Customs, Marine and Fisheries, Railways, Indian Affairs and Labour, all of which have been partially discussed, and some items passed on days other than Thursday or Friday. I understand that outside of these departments we cannot proceed either to-day or to-morrow except with the consent of hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am satisfied.


Frank Oliver: Do I understand my right hon. friend the Prime Minister (Mr. Borden) to say that Indian Affairs has been taken up ?


Robert Laird Borden: I understand so.


Frank Oliver: Civil Government has, but I understood that Civil Government in connection with all departments was put through by consent, and that it did not affect the principle which has been alluded to and which would be applicable to the other estimates of the department,


Robert Laird Borden: I would not like to commit myself as to that for the moment, as I have not considered it. I understood that Indian Affairs had been discussed to some extent outside of Civil Government. I may be in error in regard to that.


Frank Oliver: I did not know that they had been.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not know that they have either. My hon. friend the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Roche) tells me that my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) is right in that regard, and that only Civil Government has been discussed. As to the point which the hon. gentleman has raised, I will give it consideration. I would not be prepared to say at the moment without thinking it over. In the meantime, pending consideration of that, I would not go -*a except by consent, saving my right,
ISir Wilfrid Laurier.]
however, to form a conclusion after I have examined the rule.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
Royal Northwest Mounted Police-North west territories, Yukon territory, provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan-pay of force, $478,000.
Wilfrid Laurier: 
Robert Laird Borden: The force in Manitoba is a very small one, consisting of 22 men.


Wilfrid Laurier: More than that, I believe. I think it is given at 54 men in the report.


Robert Laird Borden: No.


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes, my right hon. friend is right; it is 22.


Robert Laird Borden: I am informed that the arrangement made with the province of Manitoba is that they pay $5,000 a year. There was a question asked about recruiting. I am prepared with the information on that point if hon. gentlemen would like it. It is contained in the following memorandum which has been furnished me by the comptroller:
It has been extremely difficult during the last two or three years to obtain recruits in Canada, nothwithstanding the increased rates of pay.
In April, 1912, recruiting was carried on in Winnipeg for one month resulting in the acceptance of only 11 men out of 75 applicants.
About the same time an officer was employed recruiting in Ontario for a couple of months and engaged only 26 men, 19 of whom were obtained in Toronto,-the rest of western Ontario furnishing only 7.
An officer was also sent to the Maritime provinces who secured 26 men in Nova SCotia, but' none in New Brunswick.
Recruiting posters were sent to every post office within a radius of 50 miles of Ottawa, but no application for engagement resulted therefrom.
Prom the foregoing it will be seen that notwithstanding due notice of the recruiting having

been given by the distribution of posters throughout the towns and advertisements in the local newspapers, only 63 men were accepted for service throughout the whole of Canada, as a result of this recruiting. A few more men were engaged from time to time at Regina and Ottawa.
An officer being on leave in England during the summer of 1912 was instructed to secure from 25 to 30 men as an experiment and he brought out 29 men, who either paid their own expenses, or agreed to repay the advances made by the Government.
In the spring of 1913, the force being about 100 under strength, recruiting was carried on in Winnipeg for over a month and only 23 men were engaged. It was then decided to recruit in England and in the month of July 98 men of a very superior class were engaged, out of about 1,300 applicants, and sent to Regina, the Government advancing the transport, the men repaying the cost of the journey from Quebec to Regina, namely, $27.98,-that from London to Quebec $24.33 being borne by the police appropriation.
During the year 1913, 259 recruits were accepted for service, 161 of whom were engaged in Canada and 98 in Great Britain.
Of the 161 engaged in Canada 19 only were Canadian born, 127 being natives of the old country, a large number of whom came out to join the force after the engagement of recruits in London. Of the balance of the 259, 6 were born in India, 4 in the United States, and 1 each in Jamaica, Australia, Prance, Germany and Denmark.
The force is now up to its full strength, namely, 760, and the engagement of men in England last summer has resulted in a continual flow of applications from young men of good education, well fitted for the work, who are willing to come out to Canada at their own expense to join the force.
Attached hereto is a statement showing the countries of birth of recruits engaged during the calendar years 1912 and 1913.
Respectfully submitted.
(Sgd.) Lawrence Fortescue.
Comptroller Royal Northwest Mounted Police.
Statement showing the countries of birth of recruits engaged during the calendar years 1912 and 1913.
Year	Year	Per-Country.	1912.	1913.	Total.	cent-age.Canada	50	19	69	14Great Britain. . . .	154	225	379	79Newfoundland. . . .	1	1	Australia	3	1	4	South Africa . . . .	1	1	United States. . . .	5	4	9	1.8Germany	2	1	3	Austria	2	2	Denmark	1	1	2	Sweden	1	1	West Indies . . . .	1	1	India	6	6	1.2France^	1	1	220	259	479


Mr. PROULX:: Is it	not necessary		that
a man should be	a British subject befote			
being engaged in	that	service ?


Robert Laird Borden: The comptroller tells me he must take the oath of allegiance and of office but that he need not he a British subject.


Wilfrid Laurier: From the memorandum which has just been
4 p.m. read by my right hon. friend, I understand that he has had some difficulty in recruiting.
From a perusal of the report my impression is that conditions at the present time
iseem to be excellent for recruiting. The report says that the force lost 300 men as follows:
Time expired	 17
Purchased	 71
Invalided	 3
Pensioned (including 3 officers)	 6
Died	,	 3
Deserted	   43
Dismissed for bad conduct	 49
Dismissed for inefficiency	 7
Special constables discharged	 101
Total decrease	 300
The total increase for the year 1913 was 109 men.
I now read this from the report:
284 recruits were engaged during the year as compared with 203 last year; 98 of these were engaged by the comptroller in England last July and arrived at headquarters in batches during August. They were carefully selected and a fine lot physically; 45 were old soldiers, a large proportion from the Guards and Cavalry. All promised to be very serviceable members of the force.
The present conditions of recruiting are excellent. Applications are received daily. Only those of apparently superior merit are accepted. I attribute this to improved conditions, to the very substantial increase of pay granted this year and the lack of suitable civil employment.
Some time ago my right hon. friend said there was insufficient recruiting for the Mounted Police. I was surprised at that statement and looked up the report, and I found my case strengthened by the statement there that there is no difficulty in securing recruits; that the present conditions of recruiting are excellent; that applications are received daily, and that only those of superior merit are accepted.
Recruiting in England is very valuable because among the ex-army men there can be found candidates admirably suited for the service. An equally as good source of recruiting, however, is to be found among our young Canadians, many of whom are always ready to enter this adventurous service. I wish it were even better known than at the present, that the Royal Northwest Mounted Police service affords a very attractive opening for young men of courage, good physique, and intelligence. If

young man enters the force at the age of twenty, after twenty years' service, when he is still a comparatively young man, he receives a pension, which though not large, is sufficient to support him. He knows the country thoroughly; he has had occasion to patrol it, and to see it from the American boundary to the Arctic ocean, and consequently he can settle down where his enterprise may lead him. For these reasons the force has always been rather popular.


Robert Laird Borden: I think my right hon.
friend has perhaps not fully appreciated the clause which I read just now as to the source of the recruiting available at the present time:
The force is now up to its full strength, namely, 760, and the engagement of men in England last summer has resulted in a continual flow of applications from young men of good education, well fitted for the work, who are willing to come out to Canada at their own expense to join the force.
The composition of the force at the present
time is	as follows:
Born in	the United Kingdom	
490Born in	Canada	
76Born in	other British possessions ..	..	24Born in	the United States	
10Born in	other foreign countries	
17Total	
617
The recruiting of native born Canadians has not been quite so successful as might have been expected, considering that the force undoubtedly possess a certain attractiveness for those who are disposed to enter upon a life such as the right hon. gentleman has de'scribed. There has always -been full opportunity given for promotion from the ranks, under the Administration of my right hon. friend and of his predecessor, and under the present Administration.


Frank Oliver: At what date did recruiting in England begin?


Robert Laird Borden: In July, 1913. The force being about 100 under strength, recruiting was carried on in Winnipeg for over a month and only 23 men enlisted. It was then decided to recruit in England and in the month of July, 98 men of a very superior class were engaged, . out of about 1,300 applicants.


Frank Oliver: When was recruiting
entered upon in England?


Robert Laird Borden: During the previous year some recruiting was carried on and 29 men were procured.
fSir Wilfrid Laurier.]


Frank Oliver: While it is easier to secure a sufficient enlistment by opening recruiting offices in England, I do not think the results in the efficiency of [DOT] the force are going to be as satisfactory as if the recruiting was carried on solely in Canada; quite irrespective of the fact of whether the recruit is of Canadian or of British birth. If a man has left his original home in the British Isles on his own initiative and has fought his own way in Canada for a greater or lesser period thereby becoming familiar with the conditions of life and with the people, I would consider him to be very much more eligible and better fitted for the work than if, never having shown that initiative, he has enlisted in England, and is without any previous knowledge of Canadian conditions. Just in proportion as it is easier to get men on the other side, are those men liable not to be as efficient after entering upon their duties as if they had been enlisted on this side, after a residence in Canada.
The Mounted Police force differs radically from a military force. In a military force, until very recent years at any rate, obedience, conformity to discipline, was the great requirement, but in the Mounted Police force where men are operating at vast distances from headquarters, perhaps individually or with only a very small number and with, possibly, only a very subordinate officer in charge, unless they have individual initiative-which no training can supply but which must be in a man to begin with, to be developed-they cannot act with desired efficiency. I wish to place these views strongly before the minister for his consideration.


Robert Laird Borden: I appreciate what has been said by my hon. friend, but I would like him to remember that recruiting was not undertaken in England until every reasonable effort had been exhausted in this country, efforts made not only in the West, but in Ontario and the Maritime provinces. I am informed by the Comptroller that the men who have recently come from England have made very satisfactory members of the force. I know that we are supposed to have in this country a people possessed of greater initiative than those of countries where conditions of life are more stereotyped; but I* think my hon. friend will remember that the native of the British Islands, when he has been tested, has been found possessed of very remarkable powers of initiative. The Civil Service of India contains many

examples of men scattered all over the country, at very great distances from headquarters or from those who can give them instructions, who have acted in times of urgency or danger in a way which forbids us to think that the natives of the British Islands are not possessed of a great initiative when the demand is made. We have recruited in the British Islands because it seemed necessary, and so far as my information goes, the result of that recruiting, up to the present time, has been absolutely satisfactory. The men are of good education, and perform their duties in a thoroughly capable and reliable manner. While I should be glad if more Canadians had been attracted by the inducements to join the force, I am bound to say that the results of recruiting in the British Islands are all that we could reasonably have expected.


Wilfrid Laurier: While no one would condemn the recruiting of the force in the British Islands at the same time I think we have a good recruiting ground in Canada. I should be far from discouraging recruiting in the British Islands. The men recruited there are chiefly old soldiers, and naturally would make excellent members of the force, but I do not think we could expect them to reach the standard of excellence of Canadians recruited very early in life. The example of the Civil Service of India is not at all apposite to the question. The members of the Indian Civil Service are sent to their work in their youth, after having received a special training for their duties, and, as all the world knows, they perform those duties most admirably. The fact that these young men direct the affairs of so many millions of people is the best testimony to their fitness; but the men who are brought over from England to serve in the Mounted Police are not of that character. If they are officers and men who have taken their discharge from the army, they must be relatively older, and, as the hon. member for Edmonton says, they have not the pliancy and the elasticity required in a constable of the Mounted Police. The Mounted Police constables, as my right hon. friend knows, must discharge not only the duties generally discharged by policemen, but duties of an infinitely varied character. Their best work is not so much seeing to the enforcement of the law and looking after offenders, but in rendering service to the settlers. If it has been deemed necessary to go to England for
recruits, I am glad that recruiting there has been so successful.
There is one thing to which I would call the attention of my right hon. friend. I see by the latest report of the Mounted Police that the number of crimes has largely increased in the three provinces in which the force operate, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, as might be expected, because with the large immigration, even though those immigrants be of the best element, such as are coming at the present time, there must be in a new community a greater number of crimes than in the old-settled portions of the country; but I notice with regret that there has been an increase in the number of the graver offences, especially murder. I do not know how far the administration of justice may be responsible but I observe also that there have been quite a number of commutations of the death sentence. We had a discussion the other day on the death penalty which I am sorry was not concluded, but, whatever opinion we may have formed on that subject, I am sure we must all hold that, so long as the law remains as it is and murder is punishable by death, then, only under the gravest possible circumstances should the sentence of the court be interfered with. I regret that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) is not in his place, but even in his absence I would call attention to cases referred to in which the sentence of death has been commuted. I read from the report, page 18, section 3:
Rex vs Bertrand. Convicted and sentenced to death; latterly commuted to life imprisonment. A cold-blooded case of uxoricide. He was charged with having murdered his wife at High River, Alta., by wilfully shooting her with a shotgun. It appears that Mrs. Bertrand owned certain property which her husband endeavoured to get control and possession of, but she steadily refused to let him get title or control. This matter seems to have been a bone of contention between them, leading to violent quarrels, and ultimately to the crime of which Bertrand was convicted.
This was a shocking crime; it is difficult to appreciate what reasons induced the Minister of Justice to recommend to clemency in this case. Tire next case is that of Rex vs. Verri:
Convicted and condemned to death, but latterly commuted to life imprisonment. A Calgary police case, result of drunken brawl. Verri stood indicted with the murder of another half-breed by name of Alfred Glenn. It appears that the former was intoxicated, quarrelled with his wife, went out of the tent in which he was living and announced that he was ready to fight any one. The late Alfred Glenn,

a neighbour who lived in an adjoining tent, and had nothing whatever to do with the family quarrel, stuck his head out of the flap of the tent to ascertain the cause of the trouble, whereupon Verrl smashed him on the head with a beer bottle, and inflicted serious injuries. Glenn was taken into hospital but succumbed in about ten days' time.
Here another horrible crime is reported, for which no possible excuse could be given on behalf of the convicted man. The next case is that of Rex vs. Stokely:
Convicted and condemned to death, but latterly commuted to life imprisonment.
Edwin Stokely stood charged with having wilfully shot and killed his brother, Frederick Stokely. They resided on adjoining quarter sections near Webber, Alta., and were recent arrivals from the United States. Bad blood seems to have existed between them for some time over certain family affairs, and to which, latterly, difficulties over money matters were added.
This is even more shocking than the others. The next case is that of Rex vs. Luzinski, a Galician:
Convicted and sentenced to death; latterly commuted to life imprisonment.
The body of an unknown man-afterwards identified as one Paul Malowski, a Galician in the employ of the Grand Trunk Pacific railway, was found in small bluff covered with brush, within the town limits of Melville, Saskatchewan. The left side of deceased's face had evidently been struck with some heavy instrument, and the jpost 'mortem revealed that the jaw and cheek bones had been badly fractured. One of the Crown witnesses at the trial deposed that on Saturday evening, December 30, 1911, the accused persuaded Malowski to go with him on the pretext of visiting a farmer three miles away. Malowski at first demurred, because he said he had not suitable or sufficient clothes for the journey, and Luzinski thereupon lent him some of his own. The two men left together, and in about an hour afterwards Luzinski came back alone. He explained that they had met the party on the road, whom they went out to visit, and that Malowski drove on with the farmer, while he (Luzinski) turned back. Malowski was never seen alive again. It was known that Malowski was carrying a considerable sum of money on his person. Robbery was undoubtedly the motive of the crime, because, when the dead body of Malowski was discovered his pockets were rifled, and all his money and valuables missing.
In this case the evidence was evidently circumstantial, though it pointed strongly to the fact that Luzinski was the murderer. Still, there may have been something missing in the circumstances which induced the department to come to the conclusion that the prisoner ought to be given the benefit of the doubt, and that the sentence of death should not be carried out. But the other three cases, those of Bertrand, Verri and Stokely, seem to be cases of absolutely heinous murder, in respect of which nothing

could possibly be said in favour of the accused. It is admitted that the law in the western provinces, from the time the police force was established more than thirty years ago, has been most admirably carried out, and that the country has been comparatively free from crime. It is also apparent that the sight of the uniform has had a deterrent effect upon evil doers. There is no doubt but that the administration of the law has been just and merciful, and that where the court has come to the conclusion that a man is guilty, the penalty allotted by law should be carried out. But in these four oases there has been an interference with the sentence of the court. 1 do not want to attach any blame to the department, because there may have been good reasons for the course taken, but if there were good reasons they do not appear here, and it seems to me that some explanation should be made by my right hon. friend or by the Minister of Justice as to why these sentences were not carried out.


Robert Laird Borden: With respect to the cases to which my right hon. friend has called attention, there are two of them that I do not at all recall, but as to the other two, I do recall the circumstances which were brought to our attention by the Minister of Justice.


Wilfrid Laurier: Which were they?


Robert Laird Borden: I remember the case of Stokely and the case of Luzinski, but I do not remember them with sufficient clearness to discuss them. Indeed, I would not care to discuss them in the absence of the Minister of Justice, as certain principles have been laid down as to the discussion of such matters, the exact nature of which I do not recall at the moment, but from which I would not like to depart. My right hon. friend of course knows that in every one of such cases the presiding judge is consulted and makes a report, and a good deal of importance is attached to his recommendation. Although I do not intend to suggest-because I do not remember-that in all these cases there was any such recommendation from the judge, it is my impression that in at least one of the cases to which reference has been made there was such a recommendation. In some of the cases, if I remember correctly, the evidence was somewhat circumstantial.


Wilfrid Laurier: The case of Luzinski?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, and possibly one of the others. I would not like it to be understood, from the reading of the cases to which the right hon. gentleman has called attention, that so large a percentage of capital cases as would be suggested by the enumeration of these four, have resulted in commutation. In a great many of these cases the questions submitted to the consideration of the Minister of Justice are rather difficult, and, as has always been the case, the report to council is always carefully considered. I think our practice in that regard is different from that prevailing in Great Britain, because I believe that there these cases do not go before the Cabinet at all; I think they are dealt with by the Home Secretary. Here the practice is to have them considered in the first instance by an officer of the Department of Justice who has had large experience.


Wilfrid Laurier: Who is that officer now?


Robert Laird Borden: Mr. Cote, I think; he has had a large experience in performing duties of that character. After he has made his report upon the case, not only his report but the whole of the evidence is read by the Minister of Justice himself, and if there has not already been a report from the judge who tried the case, that report is asked fox. In fact I know that the Minister of Justice has addressed letters to all the judges of the country asking that in every case such a report should be sent to him at the earliest possible moment, in order that certain delays which have taken place in a few instances may be avoided in the future. The Minister of Justice, upon consideration of Mr. Cote's report and of the evidence itself and of all that may be urged by any person on behalf of the man convicted, makes his report to Council, and then all these reports are very carefully considered in Council, and we endeavour to discharge what seems to be our plain duty in every case. Naturally in such matters those who are called upon to consider the question of commutation may not always entertain exactly the same opinion. The duty of deciding upon such cases is not only a very responsible but a very difficult one. I appreciate thoroughly the importance of what the right hon. gentleman has said as to the necessity of a strict adherence to the verdict of the jury and the sentence pronounced thereon. We have not departed from that principle except in cases where it seemed our manifest duty to do
so. I shall inform the Minister of Justice of the observations which the right hon. gentleman has made with regard to cases which have been mentioned, and ask him to give his consideration to what may properly be said in regard to them.


Wilfrid Laurier: I have no doubt whatever that the advisers of His Excellency, no matter who they may be, in the advice which they give to His Excellency with regard to these extreme sentences of the law, are actuated only by their own honest and conscientious convictions. Indeed it would be horrible to suppose anything to the contrary. But even while this is a principle which is well known, I have known, in the course of my life, such advice to be discussed in Parliament and very seriously criticised. I do not want to find any fault in the present instance; but on looking over the report I find that we have four cases of brutal murder, and on the face of the report it is impossible to conceive, in at least three of the cases, what reasons could have existed to induce the Minister of Justice to advise the commuting of the sentence. In the fourth case, the Luzinsky case, the evidence was circumstantial, and while it strongly pointed to the man who was indicted, perhaps-there was in this case some link missing which did not satisfy the Minister of Justice that, after all, the case was beyond all doubt. I do not say this by way of criticism. This report goes to the whole country and upon the face of it there are four cases there which would appear to have been commuted without sufficient reason. I will be glad to hear, at some future date, what were the reasons of the Minister of Justice for advising commutation in such cases.


Robert Laird Borden: There was another case, the Stokely case, where there were very peculiar circumstances. It was a dispute over land, over a boundary as well as over cattle, and the evidence placed before us would indicate that both parties had gone armed to the scene of action. There was evidently a disposition on both sides to use firearms. The evidence rendered it uncertain, if I remember correctly, as to whether there was not a very strong attempt on both sides to get the opportunity to shoot first. That case was a very painful case. It was a quarrel between members of the same family.


Wilfrid Laurier: Two brothers.


Robert Laird Borden: And evidently both sides had been determined to use firearms if necessary for their purpose. There was also a good deal of conflicting evidence as to the facts in the case, and I am not clear as to what the recommendation of the judge was. However, there will be an opportunity of discussing that later.


Frank Oliver: If I might revert to the
views I expressed a little while ago in regard to the locality of recruiting of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police and the remarks of the Prime Minister, apparently what I said was misunderstood. My hon. friend seems to have thought that I was drawing a contrast between the respective ability of Canadians and old country men.


Robert Laird Borden: As to initiative only.


Frank Oliver: I can quite see that my hon. friend was under a misapprehension. I was drawing attention to the difference in initiative between different classes of old country men. The old country man who has come out here on his own initiative has demonstrated his initiative by coming out here and rustling for himself for a period before entering the force. As I understood the return, the large majority of the members of the force at the date of the information read by the Prime Minister, were of that class, in the proportion of something like 75 Canadians to 400 old country men. The condition that my right hon. friend has mentioned of the large proportion of old country men in the force is not new. From the very inception of the force and all through its history, a very large proportion of its membership, and of the most distinguished members of the force, were old country men, men who had become apprenticed to the conditions of life here and who were therefore well fitted to discharge the duties required of them.
I speak of this, not for the purpose of mere discussion or argument, and I do not wish it understood that I make criticisms for the sake of criticism. I would like to have it understood that my only object is to secure the best possible result from the organization and efforts of the force.
I am compelled to suggest that if it was possible to recruit sufficient men in Canada for the force up to a certain date, and that after that date it ceased to be possible, there is prima facie evidence that there was a change of conditions in the force, that rendered it less desirable as a vocation. That may have been because of conditions outside the force, or because of con-

ditions inside the force. I draw the Prime Minister's attention to the point, for the purpose of suggesting to him the very great desirability of his dealing with this prima facie case, and finding out why, although up to a certain date, we had been able to get sufficient recruits in Canada-not all Canadian born it is true, but men who had Canadian experience-after a certain time we had to go outside of Canada to engage those with no Canadian experience, who had shown no individual initiative, and whose worth remained to be tried. It is desirable that there should be a careful examination in regard to that point. I wish to say further that there has been a serious increase in unpunished crime in the western provinces within recent years, the perpetrators not having been discovered. That also is a matter that should receive very, very, careful attention. It may be because of a change of conditions in the population of the provinces; it may be because of a lessening of efficiency in the force, and it may be because of the measure of divided authority that now exists as between the Dominion and the provinces. The arrangements as to the several responsibilities of the force as a force, and the responsibilities of the provinces, as responsible for the administration of law and paying for the upkeep of the force, may or may not be satisfactory, and such as lend themselves to efficiency. Or, is there a difficulty existing that in any way militates against the results that in former years were unquestioned, as the result of the direct administration of the mounted police force ?


Robert Laird Borden: The executive or military head of the force is exactly the same as it has been for a number of years. The Commissioner is Mr. Perry, a man of long experience who has been at the head of the force for some ten years or more, and who has been a member of the force for some 32 years. I do not know of any reason why the force should seem less attractive than formerly, and I should suppose that failure to obtain a sufficient number of recruits in Canada under arrangements made by the Comptroller and the Commissioner, must have been due to the fact that other opportunities for useful activity proved more attractive. Recruiting in England was not undertaken until we had failed to obtain a sufficient number of men in Canada. Of the 225 men natives of the British Isles who were enlisted in 1913 I think that only 98 were actually engaged in the British Isles; the

remainder being engaged in Canada, although I am not at all sure that those men had been in this country for a very long time. From the reports which I read a moment ago, I gathered that a great many came over to this country in the hope of an opportunity to enlist. The Comptroller inform? me that many of them had been in this country, one or two years at the time of enlistment. Others, no doubt, only came over a short time before enlisting. With regard to the suggested friction or lack of harmony between the force and the provincial authorities who primarily are re-sponsiDle for the administration of justice in those provinces, no such friction or lack of harmony has been brought to my attention and the Comptroller informs me that nothing of the kind has been brought to his attention by the Commissioner. In the absence of evidence to the contrary I am disposed to think that it does not exist.


Frank Oliver: I would like to impress
this point because the credit of the force and the credit of Canada is very deeply involved.- We have always prided ourselves upon the maintenance of law and order and the punishment of crime, particularly of serious crime, in the western provinces. When we find a condition in which, to an increasing degree, serious crime is unpunished the matter certainly calls for consideration and a search for whatever the cause may be.


Robert Laird Borden: Is my hon. friend referring to cases where the author of crime has not been detected?


Frank Oliver: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: And no arrest made?


Frank Oliver: Yes. The reason I ask as to the division of authority is that in the city of Edmonton, in the year 1912, a murder was committed; a woman was shot in her house and the perpetrator of the crime was never discovered. During the past summer a man named Hargraves was found murdered on the street and a man named McNulty was shot in his house. The perpetrators of these crimes were never discovered. I quite realize that primarily the responsibility rests upon the police of the town but, generally speaking, it rests upon the provincial authorities and I presume that in general -the police force is called into question. If there is any friction, if there is any division of responsibility that tends to prevent the effective discovery of crime, it should be searched out and done away with. If there is no
such disability, then, certainly the reason is all the greater why every consideration should be given to these terrible instances; because what has occurred in Edmonton is only what is occurring elsewhere. It is a feature of present conditions that the perpetrators of serious crimes are not discovered in the same proportion as prevailed in former days. If it is a question of jurisdiction or division of authority, let it be searched out and done away with in some way or another and let some readjustment be made. If it is a question of efficiency, that should be attended to. This changed condition is serious and I take this opportunity of bringing the attention of the Prime Minister and of the Government to it.


Robert Laird Borden: I shall send the hon.
gentleman's observations to the Commissioner and ask him if he has anything to offer in regard to the situation Which the hon. gentleman describes. If there is any friction, or lack of -harmony, or division of responsibility, that has brought about any such results as are suggested, I certainly want to know that fact and to find a remedy -for it if it can be found. Up to the present nothing of the kind -has come to my attention. Should it come to my attention I will endeavour to provide a remedy.


Mr. MURPHY:: The right hon. gentleman has given us the information as to the manner in which recruiting is carried on I would like to inquire how vacancies among the officers are filled. Is it by promotion or by bringing in others from the outside?


Robert Laird Borden: In some cases by promotion, and m some case- by the appointment of persons who are not in the force. I think the rule generally observed has been that at least -half, and generally more than half, of the appointments to inspectorships are made from the force itself.


Charles Murphy: Has it been the custom for a certain number of years, when a vacancy occurs in the department at Ottawa, to bring in a person from the staff of officers to fill such vacancy?


Robert Laird Borden: No. Nothing of that
kind has ever been done, and 5 p.m. the Comptroller informs me that it would be impracticable because these officers are under different pension enactments.


Frank Oliver: While there have been a considerable proportion of promotions from

the ranks of the non-commissioned officers to the commissioned officers, there have been a number of appointments of officers from the outside. That does not tend towards the retention of the best men in the force, nor does it tend to attract capable, ambitious and useful men from the outside. It may be said by my right hon. friend that the late Government, as their predecessors, on occasion appointed men from the outside to the force. At that time it was possible to recruit sufficiently for the force in Canada. Conditions, for some reason or other, have changed, and I would respectfully suggest that one improvement that might be made by the Government would be to let it be thoroughly understood that commissions in the Mounted Police force are available only to members of the force who have earned them by merit.


Robert Laird Borden: The Comptroller informs me that there have been about 12 appointments-I am not speaking with absolute accuracy-to inspectorships since the office has been under my administration, and that all have been filled from the force itself except two. I also gather that about a similar proportion to that prevailed under the Administration of my right hon. friend the leader of the Opposition. I mentioned a little while ago that at least half were filled from the force. Of course, the proportion is much greater than that- about five-sixths have been filled from the force according to the figures which I have just given to my hon. friend.


Frank Oliver: I believe it would have
a good effect if the Prime Minister were to anounce as a measure of policy that hereafter commissions in the force would be filled from amongst the non-commissioned officers.


Robert Laird Borden: Yes. It sometimes happens that there is an opportunity to appoint some one from outside of the force who seems to possess the most excellent qualifications for the purpose. It sometimes happens that it is a little difficult to appoint from within the force on account of a question of seniority, or in view of the fact that persons who may be considered to have very strong claims by reason of length of service are perhaps a little advanced in years and have not the vigor and initiative which may be desired for certain posts on the force. Considerations of that kind have been urged upon me I think, in the two cases to which I have

alluded, and these appointments were made from outside of the force for special rea-* sons.


Frank Oliver: I do not wish to suggest that the appointments made from outside may not be very meritorious.


Robert Laird Borden: I understand my hon.
friend.


Frank Oliver: The fact that they are
made from the outside has the effect upon the esprit of the force that my right hon. friend has mentioned.


Robert Laird Borden: I appreciate what my hon. friend has stated.
Royal Northwest Mounted Police-To compensate members of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police for Injuries received while in the discharge of duty, $3,000.


Frank Oliver: So far as the matter has come to my attention in the past, the compensation paid for injuries received has hardly been on a scale proportionate to the injury suffered. I may be wrong in that, but that is the impression I have gathered. I think the department would be well advised to make liberal compensation to men who have suffered injury in the discharge of their duty, to the extent of liberal provision for closely dependent relatives in case of death or disablement resulting from such injury. The occasion may arise at any moment when a policeman must face death. He must take his choice between the discharge of his duty and his possible permanent disablement or the loss of his life. While there is no money compensation that will ever put the spirit of sacrifice into a man-if it is not there already it will not be there when the crisis comes-at the same time I think the country can well afford to let its servants know that the country at large has an interest with them in the discharge of their duty and is prepared to show that interest by liberal provision in the ease of disablement or death, by provision for closely dependent relatives on a scale not based upon the conditions of a regular army in a European country, but based upon the conditions of life as they exist in this country and based further on the fact that the man who faces this danger does it, not because of discipline, not because he has been told to walk in a certain direction under a certain order, but with a full appreciation of the consequences to himself and simply because he has the highest regard for the duty that he has undertaken to perform.


Robert Laird Borden: I will bear in mind what my hon. friend has mentioned. If he will send me the names of the persons to whom he alludes, I shall be very glad to have their claims considered.


Frank Oliver: I am not speaking of a particular case; I am speaking generally. I am asking for information as to what the scale of compensation is. Is there any consideration for the widow of a constable killed in the discharge of his duty, and what is it?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes. The Commissioner informs me that the pension to a widow amounts to one-half of the pay of the man who has been killed. In some cases, as my hon. friend knows, special compensation has been voted by Parliament, for example, in the case of Inspector Fitzgerald.


Frank Oliver: Within the year some of the constables at Edmonton were required to arrest a settler who had suddenly become insane. One, if not two of them, were killed in making the arrest. I do not know if they left any dependents, blit if they did, it was a case that came very close home. A constable, if he is to be efficient, must make up his mind on the instant as to whether he is to face death or disablement or not, and I think the country should be substantially behind him in that very difficult circumstance.


Robert Laird Borden: I agree with my hon. friend. In the case to which the hon. gentleman alludes, I understand that the immediate relative is a father who is in very comfortable circumstances, and no application for a pension has been made.


Frank Oliver: I was speaking generally. I only mentioned that case as one coming under my own notice and quite near my own home.


Robert Laird Borden: I quite concur in the spirit of the hon. gentleman's observations.
Royal Northwest Mounted Police-Pensions to families of members of the force who lost their lives while on duty: Beatrice Maud and Laura May Grundy, $36.61; Margaret Johnson Brooke, $273.75; Annie Eva Emily and Arthur Stewart Mountford Brooke, $109.50 ; Mrs. Elizabeth Willmett, $54.75 ; Mrs. Elizabeth Fitzgerald, $525 ; pension to J. B. Allan, $450.


Frank Oliver: These seem to be very small pensions.


Robert Laird Borden: In the case of Beatrice Maud and Laura May Grundy, the mother
has remarried, and the pension, as reduced, continues to the children.


Frank Oliver: Is the vote for Margaret lohnson Brooke a pension to a widow?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, the widow of a sergeant who was drowned while on duty.


Frank Oliver: It does seem to me that $273.75 a year is a very small pension for a woman in the prairie west, especially for the wife of a sergeant. If this sergeant lost his life in the discharge of his duty I think the country could well afford to pay a larger pension.


Robert Laird Borden: This is the same amount that has been voted for a number of years. In this case we do propose a supplementary estimate, for the reason that Mrs. Brooke has become insane, and there are circumstances, which I will explain on the Supplementary Estimates, which make it reasonable to make further provision.


Wilfrid Laurier: These pensions seem small, but they were recommended iby a board whose recommendation was confirmed by Parliament. The pensions were thought to be the best that could be done at that time. These oases are of old standing.


Robert Laird Borden: They were all fixed after recommendation by the board.


Frank Oliver: The point I am trying to get at is that in view of the difficulties in recruiting for the force, it may be desirable to improve conditions in the force to correspond with the changed conditions of the country. One of the improvements I suggest is the granting of commissions only to .members of the force, and another might be an increase of compensation in cases of injury or death.


Robert Laird Borden: I will ask the Comptroller to give consideration to what my hon. friend suggests and report to me with regard to it.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is the
case of J. B. Allan?


Robert Laird Borden: This is an officer who was totally incapacitated by an Indian named Almighty Voice.


Frank Oliver: Last year he was paid $2,702.50, and the present vote is only $450.


Robert Laird Borden: We have acted along the line already suggested. In this case there was a question whether this officer should be superannuated under one Act or under

another. He made application to us indicating that he should have been superannuated under an Act -which wtuld give him a slightly increased pension. We gave him the increased pension and also paid him the arrears.
Civil Government-Office of the Conservation Commission, $35,800.


Mr. BOEDEN:: Some information was
asked in regard to the Conservation Commission, and I had a memorandum prepared on the point which is as follows:
The work can be conveniently considered under the various branches of work:
(1)	Forests :
The Trent watersheds survey report is now in the press. This area was selected because it is typical of thousands of square miles of cut-over lands in eastern Canada, and because the $10,000,000 invested in the Trent waterway gives the Dominion Government a special interest in this region. The report contains valuable recommendations respecting the reforesting of this area and data respecting the possible returns from it, if reforested.
The railway fire protection work is now organized in the West, and, so far as possible, in the East. The tremendous decrease in fire damage and the cordial co-operation of the railway companies demonstrate the wisdom and economic results of the railway fire legislation.
Material progress in collecting statistics of our forest resources has been made in British Columbia and Saskatchewan. Much attention has been given to forest conditions on Dominion lands, particularly as regards disposal of waste in cutting and to natural reproduction through control of methods of cutting.
(2)	Fur-bearing animals:
A report on fur farming was published in 1913 and has already gone through two editions. Requests for it have been received from the principal European countries, Australia and the United States and Alaska. An enlarged and revised edition wdll be published in 1914. In Prince Edward Island there are 171 foxfarming companies with a capitalization of sixteen and oner-quarter millions.
(3 ) Fisheries:
A report of the Canadian oyster by Dr. Jos. Stafford was published in 1913. The total cost of the report to the commission other than the printing and binding, was a small honorarium to the author, the cost of the field investigations having been borne by the Department of Marine and Fisheries.
As a result of the interest excited by the Sea Fisheries report, published by the commission in 1912, the Government of British Columbia, in 1913, engaged Dr. Stafford to report on the transplanting of Atlantic oysters to the Pacific coast. The increasing interest in ovster-l'arming in the Maritime provinces, particularly Prince Edward Island, demonstrates the economic development of this industry.
(4)	Agriculture:
The agricultural surveys were continued in 1913. They are carried on to ascertain whether agriculture is improving or the reverse, whether weeds, insect pests, etc., were increasing or decreasing. Thirty illustration farms-not

experimental farms iii any sense of the word-were carried on at a cos't of less than $100 per farm They are designed to demonstrate that any farmer who will follow the recommendations of the agriculturists of the commission can obtain increased crops, can rid his farm of weeds and can increase its fertility. Farmers' improvement associations have been formed near each illustration farm and numerous addresses given by the agriculturists.
(5)	Public health:
Special attention has been given to the pollution of waters used for civic water supplies. Evidence has been presented to the International Joint Commission respecting a sanitary survey of international waterways, and to the Pollution of Streams Committee.
The collection and disposal of garbage in urban municipalities and sewage disposal have received attention. Town planning and housing have been studied and, next June, the commission will act as hosts to the National City Planning Conference in Toronto. This convention is exciting interest throughout Canada and it is hoped that it will result in the passage of enabling legislation along the lines suited to Canadian conditions.
(6)	Water-powers :
During 1913, the report on the proposition to dam the St. Lawrence at the Long Sault was published.
It contains in systematized form full information respecting Canada's rights on that river.
The water-powers of the Nelson. Hayes, Berens and Dauphin rivers in Manitoba were gauged, and in 1914 the work of the last three years will now be published as a report on the water-powers of the prairie provinces.
Work was continued on the water-powers of northern British Columbia. In 1914, the investigations of 1912, 1913 and 1914, covering the portion of the province lying between the Grand Trunk Pacific and the international boundary, will be published as a report on water-powers in British Columbia. A report of the waterworks and sewage systems of the Dominion was published in 1913.
(7)	Coal:
The conservation of coal report is now in the press. It advocates more economic methods of utilization, such as briquetting and use of byproduct coke ovens, and emphasizes the advantages of the leasehold system. The programme of work during the 1914 has not been finally decided upon, but wall deal, in general, with the power situation in Canada, utilization of lignite to develop power at central plants, &c.
The bulletin ' Conservation ' is issued monthly to all newspapers in Canada and to individuals who take an interest in the conservation of our natural resources.
The duty of the commission is to investigate, inquire, advise and inform. In so doing, they avoid, whenever possible, doing work that can be regarded as falling within the function of a governmental department. If it is occasionally necessary to do such work, it is only carried far enough to arouse interest in the work, or to indicate possible improvement, or to obtain the information necessary for intelligent judgment.
I was also asked for information as to the staff of the commission. Following is a list of the permanent officers and clerks

on the staff, together witn their official titles and salaries:
James White, assistant to chairman, salary, $5,000 ; Clyde Leavitt, chief forester, $2,800; Leo. G. Denis, hydro-electrical engineer, $2,400; Wm. J. Dick, mining engineer, $2,400; F. C. Nunnick, agriculturist, $2,300; Thos. Grindlay, draughtsman, $1,800; Allen Donnell, assistant editor, $1,650 ; Helen A. Grange, librarian, $750 ; Lucy Hawkins, clerk, $650 ; Nellie Pepper, clerk, $600 ; Lorna Burwash, clerk, $600 ; Nauma F. Johnson, clerk, $600 ; Alice Beaulieu, clerk, $550; J. A. Macdonald, clerk, $800; Kathleen McElroy, clerk, $550 ; James Carrol, messenger, $550 ; W. J. O'Connor, messenger, $500.
Mr. OLIVER; I notice that mention is made of a considerable amount of practical work done by the commission, particularly in agriculture and in water power investigation. I was under the impression that when the commission was organized it was intended to be educative and not administrative. It would appear to me, from the list of its activities which has been read, that the commission has, to a considerable extent, become administrative. There is no objection to that so long as the -vfrork is necessary and is well done, and so long as that work does not cover ground occupied by any of the departments. It may be said -and it is absolutely true-that there is room for all the work that can be done by the commission and any one of the departments in many of these lines, but it is surely much better to have a single than a divided responsibility. If we are to look to the Department of Agriculture for agricultural demonstration and education, then the activities of the Conservation Commission in that line are not required. There is, to some extent', a waste of money, and there is what strikes me as being much worse than the mere expense-the fact that the Agricultural Department, may as well as the Conservation Commission, fail to take notice of matters that they would otherwise deal with, the Department of Agriculture assuming that the Conservation Commission will deal with it, and the Conservation Commission assuming that the Department of Agriculture will take it up. It may be that there is a well-defined sharing of responsibility and consequently no overlapping or omissions, but so far as we are informed there has been no such arrangement. If not, either the Conservation Commission should confine itself to purely educative work, or else, if it is going into administrative work, the measure of its administrative responsibility should be thoroughly understood and lefined, as it is not likely to be by a general vote covering the total expenses in one sum.


Robert Laird Borden: I appreciate the importance of what my hon. friend has put before the committee. I may observe that the report which I have just read states that there is a desire and intention on the part of the commission not to duplicate the work of any department, and that in case they undertake any work which might seem to be the work of a department rather than that of the commission, they do so only for the purpose and to the extent of arousing interest in the subject. That is the intention they have; my hon. friend may have some doubt as to whether they give full effect to that intention. I know that the question of duplicating work is a very important one, and I entirely agree with what my hon. friend has said in that regard, but even among the departments of the Government, as he knows, there is sometimes a good deal of difficulty in avoiding some duplication. As between the commission and the several departments, I shall certainly use any influence I have to avoid duplication of the character alluded to by my hon. friend.
Mr. OLIVER; I said there were two points, of which the duplication was the minor point. The major point is the blank that may occur between the responsibilities assumed by the Conservation Commission and those assumed by the department. There may be, on the one hand, a duplication of over-lapping of work, and on the other hand-which is, to my mind, even more serious-a condition under which each party leaves the responsibility to the other, the result being that what should be done is not done.
.Mr. BORDEN: From the report which I have read, it would seem that the commission endeavours to exercise a certain amount of vigilance with regard to matters which, although properly coming within the activities of the various departments of Government, nevertheless have some relation to the work which the commission is supposed to carry on. If the commission observes that some such work or some particular phase of any work is not receiving the attention which, in the opinion of the commission, it should receive from the department, then the commission, for the purpose of arousing interest, undertakes some work of that kind. If that is a correct statement of conditions, it *would not be very likely that the difficulty to which my hon. friend has alluded would arise. I shall bear his observations in mind and if

he can suggest anything that might be done to avoid the detriment to the public interest which he regards as possible I would be very glad indeed to have the benefit of his suggestions or observations.


Mr. McCRANEY:: There is a matter
which I fancy is not irrelevant to this item, biit which L wish to draw to the attention of the right hon. Prime Minister. There are in this country landmarks and national monuments which we wish to preserve. I notice, in looking through the London Times, that the Board of Works in the old country have the right to prevent the sale or demolition of property or houses, by issuing an order so as to give the Board of Works a period of eighteen months in which they may purchase the property on behalf of the Government if they so decide. I do not know if there is a department in this Government which has that power or whether it would be wise for the Government to acquire such power. I should think it would, and as we are dealing with the question of conservation, perhaps not in a sense intended when the commission was formed, I make the suggestion that perhaps the Prime Minister might think it well to give the Conservation Commission the power to obtain such an order and later on, if Parliament so thought, acquire the property for national purposes.


Robert Laird Borden: The question to which
my hon. friend has called my attention hardly seems to pertain to the scope Jof this commission; nevertheless, it is deserving of very serious consideration. The same question has been under the consideration of the Government. The hon. gentleman will remember that a commission was formed for the purpose of preserving and beautifying the battlefields in the vicinity of the city of Quebec. Representations have been made to the Government from various parts of the country pointing out the importance of acquiring and preserving monuments or building or places of especial historic interest. That subject has been under the consideration of the Minister of Finance and one or two other members of the Government, but at the present moment I have nothing to announce except that it is under consideration, and that we may possibly be able to make an anouncement in regard to this at a later date.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am glad to hear the
declaration made by the right hon. gen-

tleman. We should do for our old fortifications and historic buildings what we have done for the Archives. For instance, it is well known that Dr. Doughty, a very able archivist, has practically authority to purchase any document of value to Canada; as a matter of fact, we know that for the last five or six years he has succeeded in getting from various countries, especially England, France and the United States, and I think even Russia, some most valuable documents for Canada. It seems to me that the Government should preserve historic fortifications. My hon. friend has referred to the Quebec Battlefields Commission. Everybody to-day acknowledges that no money could be better spent than in beautifying the surroundings of Quebec, and maintaining the landmarks around the battlefield. A commission, under the chairmanship of Sir George Garneau, has performed some very excellent work, and for my part I would not begrudge any sums of money that would be spent for like purposes.
The Art Commission appointed by the Government has also done some excellent work last year. Not very long ago I had occasion to visit the museum in Ottawa and I found that some very valuable paintings and sculptures, which are a credit to our country, had been purchased by the Government. The museum is now open to the public on Sundays, and this experiment has been such a success that it should induce the Government to also open the Archives on Sunday, and to enlarge the Archives building. Everybody knows that the building is already too small for its purpose, and I hope to see this year a vote for the enlargement of that very important building.


Robert Laird Borden: I appreciate the observations and suggestions of my hon. friend. It is very important that we should preserve, as far as possible, these objects of historic interest. The subject is under consideration. The Archives building will undoubtedly require enlargement in the near future. The subject has been brought to my attention by Mr. Doughty and I have already placed a communication before the Minister of Public Works about it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Did the right hon. gentleman impress on my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works the idea that if the building is enlarged space should be provided for the Royal Society of Canada ? The members of the Royal Society meet here generally once a year, sometimes more

frequently, and they have no accommodation. The members are obliged to hold their sittings either at the Carnegie library or at the Normal school. It is not proper that this state society should hold its meetings outside of a public building belonging to the Government. As they also have a library and collections, etc., it seems to me that it would be proper for the Minister of Public Works to make provision in the Archives building for the accommodation of this society. It would be the most convenient place for the meeting of the members of this society.


Robert Laird Borden: I think the Minister of Public Works a few days ago stated that he had that suggestion under consideration.


Frank Oliver: Has the Conservation
Commission considered the conditions that were proposed to be dealt with by the Bill introduced last year by the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bradbury) in regard to the pollution of streams ?


Robert Laird Borden: The memorandum which I read, stated that special consideration had been given to that Bill.


Frank Oliver: Has any report been published in regard to it?


Robert Laird Borden: If I remember the -memorandum correctly, there has -been some report upon it. I cannot speak with absolute certainty, because the document has gone out to ' Hansard,' but that is my impression.
Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM: Shortly after the formation of the Conservation Commission; in connection with the investigation of other water-powers throughout Canada they looked ipto the water-powers that were created on the canals, such as the Lachine canal and the Welland canal. It is a matter of history that on both these canals there were a number of old leases which are somewhat difficult to deal with. Some of them were in perpetuity, I think, and those to whom these leases were granted having passed away, their estates were receiving some benefit -as the leases were sublet to others. The Department of Railways and Canals in some instances, if I remember correctly, took means to get rid of these old leases and make new ones. The commission, I think, sent an officer to look over the situation in the Department of Railways and Canals, but I have not been able to find out just what conclusion they arrived at; whether they made any report as to the situation of all these water-powers, or whether any suggestions were made as to 46
the best way of dealing with them. They are very difficult to deal with, because these old lease-holders, or their heirs, have certain rights which cannot be disposed of without a great deal of consideration. Perhaps my hon. friend can tell me if the commission has made any report on that.


Robert Laird Borden: I imagine that the report in question would -appertain to the Department of Railways and Canals rather than to the commission, and the Minister of Railways can give my hon. friend more information on that than I can. At the moment, the only thing I can say on the subject is this: I know from reports of the Minister of Railways that a good many of the leases have been surrendered or cancelled, and new leases made. I could not give my hon. friend any reliable information as to the number of cases in which that has been done, but I do know that several cases of very long standing have been disposed of within t'he past twelve months. If my hon. friend desires, I -will ask the Minister of Railways to prepare information on the subject.


Mr. GRAHAM:: The hon. gentleman
could hand me a synopsis of what has been done. There are quite a number of these leases, and as the new Welland canal is being constructed possibly some of the old rights will be interfered with in the new construction, and it 's interesting to know wlat has been -done. The Conservation Commission asked if they -might be allowed to -send their officer to investigate in the department, and I think he was given a free hand, but I have never been able to find out the result of his investigation.


Robert Laird Borden: Will there be any objection to taking up Civil Government-the Department of Finance and the Department of the Secretary of State?


Wilfrid Laurier: On the same condition.


Robert Laird Borden: Quite so.


Frank Oliver: Would it be possible, in this connection, to have the officers of the House take note of the business with a view to having a permanent and impartial record as to where the rights of the Opposition begin in regard to the moving of motions on going into Supply and how far they go? There has been a good deal of discussion across the floor of the House, and nothing has been passed except by consent, and there may be some dispute hereafter.


Robert Laird Borden: There could not possibly be any dispute with regard to this, because the rule says specifically that it must be taken up on some other day than Thursday or Friday. That is my recollection.


Mr. MARCIL:: It might be possible to
state in the Votes and Proceedings when the Estimates are called for the first time.


Robert Laird Borden: I will consult with the
oificers of tne House. I do not think there will be any difficulty in that regard.
At six o'clock the Committee took recess.
The Committee resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
Civil Government-Department of Finance and Treasury Board, $117,875.
Mr. PERLEY (Acting Minister of Finance) :: There is no alteration in the
number of employees. One of the clerks, Mr. Russell, who has been in the service for a great number of years, has been given a promotion to subdivision 1A. His salary has not been increased, but he has been given promotion to the next grade. Otherwise, the condition is the same as it was last year.
Department of Finance - Contingencies, $23,000.


Charles Murphy: What is the reason for the increase in contingencies?


George Halsey Perley: It is to cover the
additional travelling expenses for inspecting outside offices. This amount used to be paid out of charges of management; it is now paid out of contingencies.
Civil Government-Departments generally- Contingencies-Care and cleaning of departmental buildings, including amount of $50 each to E. Snowden and W. E. H. Jeffrey for firing noon gun, $160,000.


Charles Murphy: The minister might explain the increase in that item.


George Halsey Perley: This is the item out of which the cost of cleaning the different Government buildings is paid; it is to provide for the charwomen and charmen. Owing to the great increase of the business it has been found necessary to take more buildings, and this is to provide for the additional service for that purpose. It is carried on under the direction of a very competent officer who has been in the department for a great many years and who seems to be very careful about his expenditure.


Charles Murphy: I thought it was understood that when any outside buildings were rented the rent would cover such services as are provided for by this item?


George Halsey Perley: I am not aware of any such arrangement. I have always understood that all the buildings rented by the Government were to be taken care of by the Government. I think that has always been the case where the whole building is rented.


William John Macdonald: An increase of one-fourth is a pretty substantial one.


Charles Murphy: What is the custom in the case of a building only part of which is rented by the Government and in which there is a janitor service?


George Halsey Perley: The particular rooms that are occupied by the Government are [DOT]leaned by us. I think that is the custom in most buildings which are rented for private purposes. We usually have to pay for that service or we have to get some one to do it.


William John Macdonald: What are the additional buildings?


George Halsey Perley: There is the Union Banx building at the corner of Sparks and Metcalfe streets, in which we have several o: the upper stories; the Booth building; the Birks' building, and the building that is known as the Robinson building on Queen street between Metcalfe and Elgin streets. Last year there were 280 of these employees and now there are 355.
Civil Government-Department of Insurance- Salaries and contingencies, $43,262.50.


George Halsey Perley: There is one clerk additional in the 2B at a salary of $1,000. I have the details as to certain clerks who have been promoted to the next subdivision.


Charles Murphy: Will the minister let us know who they are?


George Halsey Perley: A. J. O'Reilly and G. D. Finlayson, from IB to 1A; F. R. Crosby, W. H. Gilliland and A. N. MacTavish from 2A to IB; F. A. Evans from 2B to 2A; and Miss Moyer from 3B to 3A. The rest of the increases are all statutory.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Is the Finance
Department acting with the Attorney General of Ontario in the prosecutions that are being carried on against the directors and manager of the Union Life Insurance Company?


George Halsey Perley: I will get that information.
Civil Government-Office of the Auditor General-Salaries and contingencies, $139,950.


George Halsey Perley: There is an increase of
four clerks in that branch due to increase in the public business generally. I think we may trust the Auditor General to see that he does not employ a larger staff than is absolutely necessary for this important work.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: At the close of the last session of Parliament it was intimated by the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Borden) that some legislation would be introduced this year to assist in repairing the losses made by the depositors in the Farmers' Bank. Is that legislation to be brought down, and what is the nature and extent of it?


George Halsey Perley: I am unable to give the
information except to say that, so far as 1 know, the Bill has not yet been prepared.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is it likely to come down this session?


George Halsey Perley: That will be in the hands of the Minister of Finance himself and as soon as he is able to get about-


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But a matter of Government policy will not be in the hands of the Minister of Finance.


George Halsey Perley: My hon. friend may rest assured that the promises of the Prime Minister are always carried out.


William John Macdonald: Except the Halifax
platform.	[DOT]
- Mr. SINCLAIR: May I suggest to the Government that when the legislation is introduced it be of a general nature, not referring particularly to the Farmers' bank. I am told that a number of other banks got into trouble in the past, and are in somewhat the same position as the Farmers' bank; instead of having an Act referring particularly to the Farmers' bank, we should have an Act which would apply to any bank in which the shareholders and depositors have made losses under similar circumstances, if we are going to become responsible.


George Halsey Perley: The attention of the hon. Minister of Finance will be drawn to the suggestion of my hon. friend.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: My hon. friend might also call the attention of the Minister of Finance to the fact that a great loss has 46J
been suffered by the shareholders of the Union Life and subsidiary companies. A great many shareholders have been practically ruined and a great deal of distress has resulted from the winding up of these companies. I hope we can have the promise of the acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Perley) that this matter will have the attention of the Government.


George Halsey Perley: Does my hon. friend consider that the loss to the shareholders of the Union Life was caused by anything that was or was not done by the Department of Finance at the time that company was incorporated?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I would say, just as much as in the ease of the Farmers' bank, and the evidence and the report of the Royal Commissioner would fully sustain that position.


George Halsey Perley: As to whether the Department of Insurance is acting with the Attorney General of Ontario in the cases against the directors of the Union Life, the superintendent of insurance is not here this evening, but the deputy informs me that he is quite sure that the superintendent of insurance is in touch with the Department of the Attorney General of Ontario in regard to the matter.


Mr. LANCTOT (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask the honourable Minister (Mr. Perley) what the Government intends to do abut refunding to the shareholders of the Farmers' Bank their money? Last year I asked the honourable Prime Minister the same question, that is, I asked him whether he intended to bring down a measure whatever to the effect of refunding the amounts deposited at the Farmers' Bank, mentioning at the same time, the people who had deposited money at the Banque de Saint Jean.
I wish that the honourable Minister, when he speaks to the Prime Minister about this, should also submit to him the case of the Banque de Saint Jean and of the Banque Ville Marie.
May I add that I would see with pleasure everybody indemnified for the losses he has suffered?


George Halsey Perley: I will give to my hon.
friend the same answer as I gave to the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair). I will see that my hon. friend's remarks are brought to the attention of the Minister of Finance himself.
Civil Government-Department of the Secretary of State-Salaries and contingencies, $82,725.


Charles Murphy: Will the minister explain what the two decreases in the staff are?


Louis Coderre: A clerkship at $1,600,
which has been in the Estimates for several years, has been dropped this year.


Charles Murphy: There were sixteen employees in the third division, subdivision B, last year, and only eleven this year; has there been a decrease in the work?


Louis Coderre: There have been
promotions to subdivision A of the same division.


Charles Murphy: There are only two promotions apparent.


Louis Coderre: There is a decrease of five, made up of two existing vacancies and three that will be caused by promotion.


Charles Murphy: What is the increase in the item of contingencies for clerical assistance?


Louis Coderre: The number of returns brought down last year was three times the number brought down the previous year. We required temporary help for work connected with the granting of charters. The number of charters granted last year was larger by about two-thirds than the number granted the previous year.


Charles Murphy: What would the temporary help have to do with the granting of
charters?


Louis Coderre: We required that help
for the recording, the indexing and the typing of those charters.


William John Macdonald: Have any steps been taken in .the direction of appointing a King's Printer?


Louis Coderre: Under consideration.


William John Macdonald: No appointment has yet been made?


Louis Coderre: No.


William John Macdonald: I was told that the evening papers announced that an appointment had been made.


Louis Coderre: There have been hopes here and there, but I do not know if those hopes will be fulfilled.


William John Macdonald: No announcement
has been made?


Louis Coderre: No.
Civil Government-Department of Public Printing and Stationery-Salaries, including Assistant King's Printer and Controller of

Stationery at $4,000, and contingencies, $79,862.50.


Charles Murphy: Will the minister explain the difference in the number of employees?


Louis Coderre: There is an item here
for an Assistant King's Printer. That does not mean that the appointment will' be made; but, in case there is need for the appointment the money will be there. During the year, the question has come up whether it would not be in the interest of the Printing Bureau to have an Assistant King's Printer appointed, but we had no money, and so the appointment was not made.


Charles Murphy: My hon. friend says that some time during the year the question arose of appointing an Assistant King's Printer. That question is always present, as is the question of appointing men in every other department. But, he has not pointed out the reasons why this appointment should be made. The statute provides for four positions-King's Printer, Superintendent of Stationery, Superintendent of Printing and Accountant, and the occupant of each of these positions must, according to the Act, possess certain qualifications. In the past it has always been the custom to have the Superintendent of Printing replace the King's Printer when the King's Printer was absent through illness or other cause, because the King's Printer and the Superintendent of Printing are usually men of the same class of knowledge and technical ability. My hon. friend proposes now to change that by creating a new position which is not provided for under the statute, and for the creation of which, I venture to submit, he has not advanced any sufficient reason. The situation would probably be better understood if he would explain to the committee what duties the Assistant King's Printer would perform if appointed.


Louis Coderre: First of all, I must say that the appointment of an Assistant King's Printer is quite authorized by the law. The hon. gentleman is right in saying that there are four positions specifically provided by the law, and which he has mentioned, hut there is in the law also a general clause authorizing the Governor in Council to appoint any other officers deemed necessary for the welfare of the department. During the illness of the late King's Printer, which lasted about six months, I believe, it was deemed desirable to have an assistant King's Printer to per-

form the duties which the law attaches to the King's Printer, but the appointment was not made, because unhappily the King's Printer died a few weeks ago. Other occasions might arise in the future making it necessary for the welfare of the Printing Bureau to appoint an assistant. The Superintendent of Printing, of course, is a good man and a faithful servant, but we find that in every department there is an assistant deputy minister, and I do not think there is any good reason why the same provision should not be made in the Printing Bureau. The hon. gentleman knows that there are between twelve and fifteen hundred men employed there.


Charles Murphy: No, I do not know that.


Louis Coderre: Then, I give the hon. gentleman that information. There are over twelve hundred men and women employed in the Printing Bureau to-day. That branch of the Administration is doing a large business, as the hon. gentleman knows, and I do not believe that any good reason can be given why, as it has been found necessary to have assistant deputy ministers in the other departments, it should not be desirable to have one in the Printing Bureau. This would not be the creation of a new position, because, under the very law passed in 1906, under which the King's Printer was appointed, Mr. McMahon, superintendent of printing, was appointed Assistant King's Printer. I assume that the reason was that an assistant to the deputy minister was found as necessary in this as in any other department.


Charles Murphy: My hon. friend has
completely proved my contention by citing the case he mentions. Mr. McMahon, in the absence of the King's Printer, was appointed Assistant King's Printer. But that did not involve the creation of a new position or an increase in the salary list. The Superintendent of Printing is supposed to possess the knowledge which will enable him to fill the position of King's Printer in that officer's absence. Under the law no special provision is made for the creation of the position of Assistant King's Printer, nor has provision been made for the salary by vote of this House. The hon. minister has not answered my question. I asked, . in the event of this position being created, and filled, what are to be the duties of the Assistant King's Printer as distinct from those allotted to the King's Printer [DOT]and the Superintendent of Printing?


Louis Coderre: We must make a distinction between the case of the King's Printer being there at his work and the case of the King's Printer being compelled to be absent. Of course, in his absence the duties allotted to him will be performed by his assistant. But, even with the King's Printer attending to his duties, I submit, the task of controlling that branch of the Administration is too heavy for one man, however capable and competent he may be. The task should be shared with somebody else.


Charles Murphy: Does the hon. gentleman mean the printing branch?


Louis Coderre: 1 mean the whole thing,, because the King's Printer has control of this whole department.


Charles Murphy: At that rate, the Assistant King's Printer will have control not only over the printing branch, but also over the stationery branch.


Louis Coderre: Yes, he will have to act in everything controlled by the King's Printer, under the King's Printer's orders.


Charles Murphy: If my hon. friend's contentions were well founded, he would have to have an assistant superintendent of stationery as well. He must know the provision of the Act whereby two superintendents are created, one for the printing branch and one for the stationery branch, relieving the King's Printer of the work to which he refers. There is no more reason for appointing an Assistant King's Printer who would look after the printing branch, than there would be to appoint an assistant superintendent of stationery, and very few possess the technical knowledge to look after both branches; in fact, I do not think there are any such men. But if he appoints one, he will find-even if it has not already been urged upon him-that demands will be made for the appointment of an assistant in the stationery branch.
What, then, would be that assistant's rank? Would he rank higher than the Controller of Stationery? The demands made upon my hon. friend were made upon every one of his predecessors, none of whom, however, yielded to them, knowing perfectly well that the department could be run properly with one responsible head, aided by two superintendents. I submit that my hon. friend has not given the committee any reason why this new position should be created. I sympathize very sincerely with him in the demands that I know are made

upon him for the creation of this position, but I say that he should not yield to them. If the position has been created and filled, I can only say that in my judgment it is simply a waste of public money to create a position for some gentleman whose friends have been clamorous enough to succeed in inducing the hon. gentleman, for whom I have the greatest respect, to do something that none of his predecessors would do.


Louis Coderre: I am in a position to say that no such demands have been made, so far as this position is concerned. I was the first who thought of it, and I thought of it after the two or three months had elapsed during which the King's Printer was unable to come to his office.


Charles Murphy: Who was looking after the Bureau during his absence?


Louis Coderre: The Superintendent of Printing was. the acting King's Printer. Before these Estimates were presented, no one but myself and the officials of the department knew there was such an item in the Estimates. Some time before the death of the King's Printer, I thought such an appointment should be made, but we had no money, and that is why an appointment has not been made. In the future the same circumstances might arise, *and I believe that in the interests of the -department we should have the money ready to pay any man who might be thought fit to fill that position. This vote does not mean that the appointment will be made, but in the case of such a necessity arising we would like to have the money to pay the man who might be appointed. I do not know whether or not I understood my hon. friend correctly, but I may say that there is no intention of appointing an assistant to the Superintendent of Printing or the Controller of Stationery:


Charles Murphy: There is just as much reason for appointing one as the other.


Louis Coderre: 
Charles Murphy: Having some intimate knowledge of my hon. friend's office, I would be the last person in the House to object to the creation of this position, or even to criticise it, if the hon. gentleman advanced any reason why it should be created. In the same breath my hon. friend refutes himself; he says this position is badly needed, and at the same time he says it is not going to be filled.


Louis Coderre: Was badly needed.


Charles Murphy: It must be more badly
needed now, when there is no King's Printer.


Louis Coderre: We expect to have one
soon.


George Perry Graham: Has he been appointed yet?


Louis Coderre: No.


Charles Murphy: Judging from the observations of my l}on. friend, I should think that he intends to make the position of King's Printer a sinecure, and then have the assistants do the work. That will not contribute to the well-being of the institution. This Assistant King's Printer, according to my hon. friend, is to have authority over the stationery branch, that
is,	over the Superintendent of Stationery as well as over the Superintendent of Printing. My hon. friend says he did not hear anything about the appointment of an Assistant King's Printer. I take that cum grano salis, because several times during the past year the newspapers announced the appointment of an Assistant King's Printer, even mentioning the name of the gentleman who was to be appointed. This question of the appointment of an Assistant King's Printer has been rife for years, and I venture to say that every person who has occupied the position which I am glad to see my hon. friend filling has had that pressed on him from time to time. Heretofore those who pressed for the appointment were never able to satisfy the minister that there was any necessity for
it.	It is all very well for my hon. friend to say that the money will be voted and that the position will only be filled in case of an emergency: We understood the

day of emergency had passed; even this emergency at the Printing Bureau. Is it a fact that my hon. friend has leased premises outside the Printing Bureau, to which he has transferred the Stationery Branch?
Mr. CODERRE-. Yes.


Charles Murphy: Then there is all the less reason why he should appoint the Assistant King's Printer. In all kindness, I wish to tell my hon. friend that the leasing of such premises and the dividing of the institution was what led to mismanagement and waste and loss a few years ago. The remedy for the over-crowded state of the Printing Bureau is not the leasing of new premises or the appointment of an Assistant King's Printer, but the building of a new Printing Bureau with ample accommodation for both branches. I presume my hon. friend has been obliged to seek premises elsewhere for the purpose of accommodating the stock of supplies and giving those employed in the Stationery Branch a chance to fill the orders from the different departments and from the Houses of Parliament. But that removes a large body of officials, some of whom occupy very responsible positions, from the Printing Bureau proper, and from under the eye of the official who, under the Act, is responsible to the minister and to Parliament for the proper conduct of both branches of the Department of Public Printing and Stationery.
I would urge my hon. friend to secure a site at the very earliest date and proceed with the erection of a Printing Bureau which would be ample for the needs of the Government for the next fifty years. This division of labour, of stock and of supplies is one of the worst things that can be done. It was owing to it that great losses took place in years past. It is impossible to properly carry on an institution if it is divided in this way. There can be no proper check on deliveries or outgoings and in the end there will be loss, dissatisfaction, and endless trouble for the hon. gentleman or his successor. I again urge that neither the appointing of an Assistant King's Printer nor the leasing of new premises in different parts of the city will constitute a remedy for existing troubles. The remedy lies in the erection of a new building.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I understand that the
selection of the new King's Printer has not yet been made by the Government?


Louis Coderre: No.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I suppose he has many applications and the names I see in the papers are all excellent names. I have seen especially the name of Mr. de la Broquerie Tache who is a gentleman from our province and well fitted for that position. Mr. Tache, although he is a political opponent of mine, is certainly well able to fill that post. He has been connected with the press and with printing establishments for over twenty-five years. He belongs to a highly respectable family, and I think he deserves well from the Government. If the choice should be that of Mr. Tache it would meet with the approval of the entire province.
I would like to say a word about another appointment, to fill the position, of the late assistant archivist, Mr. Roy. Last year I understood the Postmaster General to say that the best appointment would be made. When the question of appointing an archivist came before the last Cabinet, political qualification were not thought of. Dr. Doughty was appointed, he w'as a newcomer in the country but he was taken because of his special fitness for the office and his appointment has certainly been a credit to Canada. Then came the appointment of Mr. Edmond Roy, of Quebec, as assistant archivist. Certainly, as regards French archives, he was an authority, not only in Canada but in France. Mr. Roy was a well-known Conservative, but Mr. Fisher, who was then Minister of Agriculture, did not care about his politics; he appointed Mr. Roy on account of his special qualifications, and I am bound to say that that appointment was hailed with pleasure by all those who took especial interest in the archives. If an appointment has not been made to the position of assistant, I would urge upon my hon. friend that he should select the man who is best equipped for that very special post. I have no recommendations to make except, perhaps, the one I have made verbally to my hon. friend. I think I suggested the name of Mr. Massicotte, now in the court house in Montreal, who, I think, is one of the electors of the Secretary of State. The hon. member knows that he is well versed in all matters pertaining to archives and history in general.


Louis Coderre: I am obliged to say to the hon. member for Rouville that Mr. Fabien Vanasse has been appointed to fill that vacancy.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When ?


Louis Coderre: About a month or six weeks ago. Of course I believe that the

Government will have to appoint a King's Printer pretty soon. Several names have been mentioned in the press and elsewhere, and I believe that all these names will meet the same approval from my hon. friend, because they are names of persons who are capable of filling the position very well. I believe I should be thankful to the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy), who has had experience and who has given me to-night the benefit of that experience. I have read the reports made by the commissions who investigated the whole situation in the Printing Bureau. Both reports advise that a new building should be erected as soon as possible. The necessary money for the completion of plans will be found not in these Estimates but in the Supplementaries for this year. The question of finding a site has been considered but not completely settled yet. I really believe it should be settled as soon as possible, so that we may be able to bring under the same roof all the branches of the Printing Bureau. Lately we have been obliged to rent another building situated at the corner of Dalhousie and York streets. There were several reasons for that. One reason is that there is not sufficient space for the officers and employees of the Bureau, and another is that lately, according to a report made by the chief architect of the Public Works Department, that building was in a dangerous condition, being overloaded. The danger was imminent, and upon that report the Minister of Public Works has rented another building in which today the stationery branch is housed. There is no division. The King's Printer will still have charge over the whole work. This sum of $4,000 was placed in the Estimates during the illness of the late Mr. Parmelee to pay for an assistant, as the need was very great. We will have a King's Printer soon, tout I do not want to be understood as stating that the Assistant King's Printer will be appointed immediately after the vote is passed; I believe it would be in the interests of the Printing Bureau to have this vote put through in case similar circumstances arise again, and for that reason I would ask my hon. friend to withdraw his opposition to this item.
Mr. MURPHY; Will my hon. friend tell us what the duties of the Assistant King's Printer will be, when the King's Printer himself is attending to his duties?


Louis Coderre: The Printing Bureau
seems to be a place to which the working

class in the city of Ottawa go to find employment. They have always gone there, and I suppose they always will. I have been to the Bureau several times, and on each occasion I have found several men waiting to see the King's Printer, with a view to getting work. It is not according to law that these people should (bother the life out of the King's Printer to get employment, but he has to receive them and try to give them work, and when he is so employed, it is impossible for him to supervise the work of the whole Bureau.


George Perry Graham: Even ministers have that trouble.


Louis Coderre: If the appointment of
an assistant would relieve the King's Printer of these callers, I would suggest that the appointment be made to-day.


Charles Murphy: It is a labour bureau you want to establish.


Louis Coderre: We all know it is a labour bureau, and it cannot be otherwise. The King's Printer has to see these men and 'he cannot do that without neglecting more important duties. Somebody else should be there to help him.


George Perry Graham: Perhaps my hon. friend will not mind my giving him a bit of advice, not that I suppose it will be taken. You never can tell when you sow seed, what fruit it will bring forth. I have had some experience in the printing business, and so far as the qualifications are concerned, I believe I could help sfelect a man for that job. The Act specifies that he must be a publisher or printer who hac been actively engaged, as such, for ten years, but it is a mistake to think that even the auost fluent writer in the world would necessarily be fitted for that position.


Mr. ROGERS:: Would you qualify under the Act?


George Perry Graham: I have had the experience, I do not say anything ahou! the further qualifications.


Charles Murphy: If the hon. gentleman
(Mr. Graham) does, will you appoint him?


George Perry Graham: A man is not necessarily qualified for that position just because he is editor of a paper. The meaning of the statute is, a man who has had practical experience as a printer or as a practical publisher.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That is what Mr. Taohe is.


George Perry Graham: To my mind, this large
department which is the printing establishment for the Government ought, to have a man with great executive ability. He should be able to organize the men under him; not that he should be labouring so earnestly himself in small matters, because the test of a good organizer is not that he works himself to death but that he gets the men under him to do the work. If this man has not good executive ability, he will make a mess of the Printing Bureau. A large number of men are employed there, and it takes considerable skill to run an establishment of that size with the minimum of friction and the maximum of good results. After executive ability, and outside the statutory qualifications, the King's Printer .should be a man who is in touch with the printing business so that he could go to ithe Bureau, and on looking it over, see whether the work was being done properly. He should be able to look over the heads of his subordinates occasionally and discover any possible leaks. What I want to impress on my hon. friend is that it is a mistake to think that because a man is a good newspaperman he is well qualified for this position. He ought to be an organizer of men, of great executive ability, and one who can handle men, if yon will allow me to put it roughly. That he should have some knowledge of printing and publishing is required by the statute. If my hon. friend would get a .man with the qualifications I have outlined, it will not matter much whether he can write an article or not. While that would be an advantage it is not necessary, and a man might have that qualification and not be fit for this position at all.


Edmond Proulx: I would like to ask my hon. friend why so much printing is being done outside the Bureau. Is it because the staff of the bureau is insufficient,
9 p.m. or simply to give some pap to the Conservative newspapers?


Louis Coderre: The reason was given
by the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy) a few minutes ago. It is because the building is too small. My hon. friend can rest assured that we could find sufficient employees, but we have not got room for them. The men are cramped as it is. I know that under the late regime, the hon. member for Russell intended to put a certain sum in the Estimates to buy a site.


Charles Murphy: It was in the Estimates.


Louis Coderre: The reasons why a new building should be erected then may be stronger to-day. With a new building sufficiently large it will be possible for the department to do all the necessary printing. This was the object of the Act.


Edmond Proulx: It is astonishing when we go through the Auditor Genreal's report, to see how much money is paid to outside printers. I will mention a few of the largest of these items. I commence with an item which I have no doubt will be interesting to the hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers). The Winnipeg Telegram received $15,365.16 for printing and $4,972.75 for advertising; Toronto World, $9,067.40 for advertising; Southam Press, $19,005.35; News, $10,165.89 for advertising; Mail and Empire, $12,641.71. Even the Orange Sentinel got over a thousand dollars-$1,554.


George Perry Graham: How much did the Eye Opener get?


Edmond Proulx: The Eye Opener of Calgary got $261.70. The St. John Standard, which is known to be the organ of the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen), received $13,415.33 for printing, and $2,717.76 for advertising; the Quebec Chronicle, the English Conservative newspaper of Quebec, got $5,330.92 for printing and $5,645.60 for advertising; L'Evenement, the organ of the hon. Postmaster General (Mr. Pelletier), got $18,728.73 for printing.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I have no organ.


Edmond Proulx: But tl at is not all; besides that it received $4,644.78 for advertising; the Montreal Gazette got the lion's share-$24,903.55 for printing and $5,331.17 for advertising; and La Patrie got $18,110.37 for printing and $5,298 for advertising. I see here the Southam Press. It appears to be ubiquitous; we see it in Toronto, Montreal and Winnipeg. The Southam Press in Montreal got $12,788.39. The Ottawa Citizen got $6,678.53, and the Ottawa Journal, $3,835.70.


An hon. MEMBER:: What did the Free Press get?


Edmond Proulx: The Free Press got only $155.16. The Kingston Standard, another good Conservative newspaper, got $3,849.16 for printing, and $3,544.95 for advertising. The Lachute Watchman got $176.19. The hon. 'member for Argenteuil (Mr. Perley), was more reasonable and more moderate than the others. The London Free Press received $7,799.30; the Dawson News, $315

for printing and $3,711 for advertising, and the Halifax Herald got $9,812.52 for printing and $3,500.42 for advertising. I am told that the editor of this newspaper is a senator appointed .by this Government. The Hamilton Spectator, another good Conservative newspaper, got $4,785.04 for advertising and $180, for printing.


An hon. MEMBER:: How much did the Hamilton Times get?


Edmond Proulx: It did not receive one cent.


An hon. MEMBER:: That is all right.


Edmond Proulx: I suppose it was too Grit for this Government. Then the Fredericton Gleaner got $1,290.33 for advertising, and $932.02 for printing. The Charlottetown Examiner got $1,171.15 for advertising and $1,881.69 for printing. I am not going to mention them all because it would take too long. I must not forget the Brock-ville Times; it i. eeived $675.88, but I do not see the name of the newspaper of my hon. friend from South Renfrew (Mr. Graham). The Belleville Intelligencer got $1,571.75.


Robert Rogers: How much did the papers in the county of Victoria, Nova Scotia, get?


George Perry Graham: They got free delivery
on a steamer within the last couple of weeks.


Edmond Proulx: It is astonishing to see how much money is paid to outside printers. Certainly a large amount of this printing could be done at the Printing Bureau.
As far as the advertising is concerned, they advertise small contracts for $100, $150 or $200 in about a dozen newspapers. It is a pure waste of money. There should be a retrenchment in this department, and I hope the Secretary of State will stop the leakage.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Three or four years ago, the then Minister of Public Works was taken to task because no tenders were asked for the advertisements published in the press. Where is my hon. friend from Pee) (Mr. Blain)? Does he remember one evening. in this House when he declared war on the then Minister of Public Works because, forsooth, he had not called for tenders for advertisements? I would like to know what his opinion is about these advertisements being given now without any tenders. My hon. friend is consistent, and I am quite sure he does not like to admit to be good on

the part of his friends what he declared to be bad on the part of his opponents. Here are hundreds of thousands of dollars spent for advertisements in the Tory press without any tenders being called for. What does my hon. friend think of that? I will expect an answer from him.


Charles Murphy: Did the Secretary of
State say that plans were prepared for a new Printing Bureau ?


Louis Coderre: No. The vote for the
plans Will be found in the supplementary Estimates for this year. As far as the buying of the site is concerned, the question has been brought up but no decision has been reached.


Charles Murphy: In conection with the
site I would suggest that my hon. friend induce his colleagues to follow the course they have so often followed before, in respect to that feature of their policy which is always evident wdien we criticise any of their actions, and when they retort: That is what you did. If they will in this case follow the course of their predecessors, we on this side of the House will have no criticism to offer. The site it was proposed to purchase was one which I mentioned before to this committee, I think when the hon Mr. Roche was Secretary of State. The site I mentioned was the old St. Lawrence and Ottawa depot, which is bounded north and isouth by Sussex and Dalhousie streets respectively, and east and west by Botelier street and Bingham square. It is a large block of land having the advantage of a railway track. It would fill every requirement of a large manufactory with regard to light and air, and would permit of any expansion that might be required within the next fifty years.
I was rather amazed to hear my hon. friend say that the number of employees of the Printing Bureau was now over 1,200. That being the case, I am not so much surprised that it was found necessary to move part of the outfit to other premises. The last time a return was brought down,
I think the number of employees was 750.
I can scarcely Gonceive that the business done by the Printing Bureau has increased to such an extent within a couple of years as to justify the employment of 1,200 people now. That is a matter, however, in regard to which we can get fuller information when my hon. friend's main Estimates are under discussion. I would impress

upon him the necessity of a new building and the immediate purchase of a site. While my hon. friend is not under any obligation to take the advice tendered by my hon. friend from South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) or by myself, istill as a citizen who was born here and who has lived here all his life, I would like to impress upon my hon. friend that there is no better site in the city of Ottawa than the one I have mentioned.
It fills the requirements in this particular, that it will be close to the residences of most of the employees of the Printing Bureau who have located in that part of the city known as Lower Town.


Robert Rogers: What about the site on
Wellington street?


Charles Murphy: I would not approve of that at all. I understand that my hon. friend proposes to erect some very handsome structures on Wellington street. The office portion of the Printing Bureau might be architecturally fine, but there would be a portion of it which would be similar to that of a manufacturing establishment; there would be a place for the boilers and the chimney, and there would be smoke and grime which are always associated with a manufacturing establishment. For these reasons I would not like to see it on any part of Wellington street. As regards the site I mentioned, the office portion of the building and the stores portion of the building could both be located on the side nearest to Sussex street, as that is the portion which people would see as they passed back and forth to Rockliffe or the east end of the city, while the manufacturing part of the building could be in the rear, down towards Dalhousie street and close to the tracks of the Canadian Pacific railway. That was the idea in mind when the site was spoken of and practically decided upon. When the present Government came into power there was an item of $100,000 in the Estimates as a preliminary amount to be expended in the purchase of a site.


Robert Rogers: You would have to tear
down the present building.


Charles Murphy: Yes, the present building is an unsightly one and should be pulled down in view of the improvements to the park and Nepean Point. If this suggestion is carried out, both the Minister of Public Works and the Secretary of State will hear no objections from this side of the House.


Mr. NESBITT:: Why the necessity of an Assistant King's Printer? What positions do the King's Printer and Assistant King's Printer occupy? I am perfectly willing to see every department properly manned. I am not afraid to spend money on necessary service, but I am opposed to unnecessary service in a Government department as much as in a private business. I see no necessity for having two King's Printers.


Louis Coderre: I gave these explanations to the House a few minutes ago, but I am willing to repeat them for the benefit of my hon. friend. This item of $4,000 is for the position of an Assistant King's Printer and was put in the Estimates a few weeks or a month before the death of the late King's Printer. Seeing that the King's Printer had been sick for about five or six months, I thought that in the interest of the Printing Bureau the appointment of an Assistant King's Printer was necessary, and I brought that proposition before the Governor in Council.
But there was no money to pay an Assistant Kings' Printer. As we were preparing these Estimates we put in this item of $4,000; and, though the King's Printer had died in the meantime, and though his successor will soon be appointed, I believe that this item should remain in case circumstances should arise making it necessary to fill this office of Assistant King's Printer. I have said that I believe the appointment of such an officer is absolutely necessary, because the King's Printer has more to do than ought to be put upon one man.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Did Mr. Parmelee apply for an assistant?


Louis Coderre: No, but the hon. gentleman will remember that when Mr. Parmelee was appointed an assistant was given him in the person of Mr. McMahon, who was Superintendent of Printing, and I believe the present Superintendent of Printing was appointed at the same time.	Thus we had a
King's Printer, an Assistant King's Printer and a Superintendent of Printing. But then in 1908 the Printing Bureau was not nearly so large as it is now. In view of all the conditions, we believe it would be wise to provide the money in case the appointment of an Assistant King's Printer may be found necessary.


Charles Marcil: Will the hon. minister please state the value of the work done in the Printing Bureau ?


Louis Coderre: About $1,500,000.


Charles Marcil: How much is done outside?


Louis Coderre: I am not sure, but I think about $400,000.


Charles Marcil: Has the Government considered the policy of decentralizing that Bureau by establishing branches in diff-ferent parts of the country, and especially in the West? I am told that men who understand these matters consider it a waste of money to have the work centralized. Has any attention been given to this matter by the Government?


Louis Coderre: I have never heard it mentioned.	.


Charles Marcil: Are any changes proposed in regard to the printing of documents in French in the Bureau? In the past great difficulty has been experienced in relation to this matter, and even when the Estimates came up for consideration the other day they were not printed in French. I inquired into this matter some years ago, when I had the honour to be Speaker of this House. I was told that the rule of the Bureau was to do the English printing first and then go on with the French. Of course, the great majority of members of this House understand English, but the delay in printing documents in French is a great inconvenience to French-speaking members, newspapers and to the Frenchspeaking public generally.


Louis Coderre: Acting according to the wishes of the right hon. the Prime Minister, and, of course, according to my own wishes,
I have included in these Estimates, as hon. members will see, an amount which, if voted, will pay for the services of three French translators at the Bureau. The reports of the Department of Trade and Commerce, the Insurance Branch, and the Auditor General always appear too late in French. Under the advice of the Chief Translator of the House, Mr. Desaulniers, I have come to the conclusion that the reports can be translated at the Bureau. This, I believe, will help to solve the difficulty to which the hon. gentleman refers.


Charles Marcil: Do I understand that in the various departments there are translators?


Louis Coderre: I know that there are two translators in the Mines Division, Mr. Sauvalle and Mr. Paradis, also that there are translators in the Department of Marine and Fisheries and one in the Post Office Department. As to the other departments, I am not informed.


Charles Marcil: The hon. minister will
realize, of course, that to print documents late is to waste money. The printing in French should go on simultaneously with the printing in English. There has been an improvement in this matter within the last, two or three years, but further improvement is possible. The documents should be sent to the King's Printer in both languages and the printing in the two languages should be simultaneous. I hope the minister will consider that, because it is important that all our people should have opportunity to inform themselves on public affairs. The French members of this House send out many blue books and other documents, but if these are late in being issued in French, they are of little or no value. I trust the minister will signalize his coming into office by making a sound rule in this respect. It need not involve any larger expenditure, ahd it will mean that the expenditure made will be really useful instead of mere waste.


Rodolphe Lemieux: (Translation.) I wish to say a few words in French, and I am addressing myself more particularly to you, Mr. Chairman (Mr. Blondin).
I am concerned with the translation of the Votes and Proceedings of this House. I do not know whose translation that is, but, really, it is very bad. I have before me No. 19 of the Votes and Proceedings, and I have checked off with the pencil at least one hundred and fifty barbarisms, anglicismis, I was going to say stupid blunders.
I shall stop at that. Instead of handing over that copy to the Speaker, it is preferable, I think, that I should let you have it, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am aware that you have taken a keen interest in the appointment of a new staff of translators, and we approved of that wise departure; but it is only fair to insist that such translators shall be competent.
I shall appeal to the hon. Postmaster General, to the Secretary of State and to the Deputy Speaker of the House. . . .


Mr. EAINVILLE:: (Translation.) Is that translation made by the translators of ' Hansard? '


Rodolphe Lemieux: (Translation.) I cannot say, but I do not think it is. I believe it is done by the translators of the House of

Commons. ' Hansard/ that is the official report of the debates of the House, is translated by a special staff of translators, while the translation of the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons is made by translators appointed by the Speaker and by the Committee of Internal Economy of this House.
I shall now, Sir, hand over No. 19 of the Votes and Proceedings, and you will agree with me that, if we are to pay salaries to the translators appointed by you, we have the right to expect them to turn out a fairly good translation.


Mr. PAQUET:: (Translation.) Mr. Ohair-. man, is the translation of the Votes and Proceedings the work of men appointed by you?
Hon. L. P. PELLETIER (Translation.) The translation to which the bon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) has referred just now, is not the work of the translators appointed during recess. From . information just supplied to me, the translation referred to is the work of men who have been long in the service of this House, and concerning whose ability no doubt has heretofore been expressed. However, on looking over this copy of the Votes and Proceedings, as I have just done, I must admit that my hon. friend has certainly some grounds for complaint. It may be that the officer responsible for this work has not been in a position to supervise and control the work as he should have done. The hon. member may rest assured that I shall go into the matter to-morrow morning at the latest, and find out what are the facts.
However, I wish to point out that this translation is not the work of the translators recently appointed. They are entrusted with translation which formerly was being turned out much less speedily, as it was parcelled out to people living in various parts of the Dominion. To-day that translation is not given out to outsiders; it is all done in one and the same office. That has put a stop to one of the causes of delay of which the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Mareil) complained a moment ago. There is a great improvement, due to the fact that to-day we have those translators within our reach and on the spot.
As I stated a moment ago, the grievance voiced by the hon. member for Rouville appears to me at first sight to be well grounded, and he may be .sure that not later than to-morrow morning I shall see to it that ' there is no recurrence of similar facts.


Edmond Proulx: Have the rates for advertising been increased since the Government came into power?


Louis Coderre: I cannot say positively, but I do not think so. So far as I am concerned, there has been no increase whatever.


Charles Murphy: There used to be one
rate applicable to printing in all that portion of the country east of Port Arthur, and an increased rate for printing done west of Port Arthur. Have these rates been changed?


Louis Coderre: They have not.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has my hon. friend
taken any action with regard to the appointment of Mr. Vanasse as assistant to the Dominion Archivist, Dr. Doughty?


Louis Coderre: Yes; he has been recommended by the Civil Service Commission.


Rodolphe Lemieux: As my hon. friend
knows, this position requires very special qualifications. Has the appointment of Mr. Vanasse been approved by Dr. Doughty?


Louis Coderre: I have known Mr. Vanasse for a number of years; I know that he is a good writer and has always been fond of historical research, particularly in Canadian history. I must confess that his name was not mentioned to me by Dr. Doughty. I mentioned his name to Dr. Doughty, who happened to know him well; and he declared that he would be well satisfied if Mr. Vanasse got the position.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The moment Dr. Doughty is satisfied I am. I have no doubt Mr. Vanasse will make a good assistant, but I wanted to know whether he had been recommended by Dr. Doughty.


John Howard Sinclair: Are tenders called for
printing done outside the Printing Bureau?


Louis Coderre: No, not generally.
Tenders are asked in some cases, but as a rule the work is.paid for according to what are called Bureau rates.


John Howard Sinclair: If there is advertising
to be done, who decides what newspapers will get it?


Louis Coderre: I do.


John Howard Sinclair: Have you a list of newspapers to which you give advertising?


Louis Coderre: There was a list in the department when the Government came into power, but I must admit that it has been corrected.


John Howard Sinclair: What steps has one to take to get his name on that list?


Louis Coderre: Members of this House have written to me asking that this or that newspaper be added to the list, and I complied with the request in almost all cases.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Would you give an
advertisement to a Grit newspaper?


Louis Coderre: Certainly I would.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Thank you.


Edmond Proulx: Are the rates for printing the same for large as for small contracts?


Louis Coderre: Yes. Except in those cases where tenders have been called the work is paid for according to the Bureau rate, which is so much a page whether the work is large or small.


George Perry Graham: In considering the construction of a new printing office, the greatest care should be taken to make proper provision for ventilation.
There are two or three things necessary in a printing office,- first, perfect light, because the printing business is perhaps the hardest on the eye. Unless you have perfect light, not only is it impossible to do the work but the eyes of the employees will soon give out. Good light is a prime necessity, and if I were Secretary of State I would insist that plans should be designed only after a visit to one of the biggest printing establishments on this continent to ascertain just the necessities of the case. If a building is rushed up that might do for an ordinary manufacturing establishment, and the printers, proof-readers, type-setters, and pressmen are asked to work there, the work will not be well performed, and it will be very hard on the employees. The second point is that of perfect ventilation. The difficulty with most of our Government buildings is that they have not proper ventilation.


John Douglas Hazen: Including this building.


George Perry Graham: I think there is no building excluded. In some of these offices when a deputation is heard the air gets so thick it is impossible to think, and everybody gets drowsy. Then you put up the window and wait until it clears out, but by that time the room is cold and some person may become seriously ill. In addition to that the fumes from the metal in the type-setting machines and the odours from the ink and several other things make it absolutely imperative, in a printing office more than in any other manufacturing institution, that

you should have perfect ventilation. The plans for an ordinary building for rough manufacturing will not do for a printing establishment.


Charles Murphy: May I supplement the
suggestion made by my hon. friend by telling the Secretary of State that the essentials which have been laid down by my hon. friend he will find carried out in the new Curtis Publishing Company's building in Philadelphia; in the Doubleday-Page Company's building, Garden City, Long Island, in a new building in Indiana, close to Chicago; and also in the more modern parts of the United States Printing Office at Washington. These several institutions I visited a few years ago when we were discussing the erection of a new Printing Bureau and the features to which the hon. member for South Renfrew has called attention were found to have been especially considered in the erection of these different buildings. Either an inspection should be made by my hon. friend of these buildings or he should send to inspect them the architect charged with the work, so that the result may be the duplication of some of these features in the new Printing Bureau in Ottawa, to the very great benefit of persons employed there and the more efficient production of the output of such an establishment.


Louis Coderre: I shall certainly take a note of the remarks made by the hon. gentlemen on these points and will suggest that the architect visit those large establishments before plans are made;


Rodolphe Lemieux: Would my hon. friend inform this House whether all the typos and printers at the Bureau are union men and how many French-speaking typos are employed in the Printing Bureau, and how many English speaking ? Is the work done indiscriminately by English and French typos? Is not the lesser number of French typos the cause of the delay in the distribution of French blue-books?


Louis Coderre: I do not believe all of the men employed there belong to the labour union, but most of them do. They are paid according to the law applying to the Government Printing Bureau. Those rates are the rates obtaining in Montreal and Toronto. An agreement has been made between the employers in Toronto and Montreal, and the union, and we are obliged to follow that to a certain extent. On that point I believe the men are pretty well satisfied. I have been obliged lately

to give them a small increase in salary, but only on being satisfied that the salary paid here was lower than that paid the same class of workmen in Toronto and Montreal. I could not tell exactly the number of French and English typos.


Charles Marcil: The same amount of work has to be done in French and English ?


Louis Coderre: Yes.


Charles Marcil: Therefore, every compositor should be able to set up type in either language ?


Louis Coderre: I believe that is what is done.


Charles Marcil: The only complaint I have is that all of the printing was done in English first before the French was taken up. Some arrangement could be made by which it would go out simultaneously in the two languages, and then there would be no dissatisfaction.	_


Louis Coderre: There was more than one reason for the delay, and one of the reasons was that the translation was too late. Now, as far as the reports of the debates of the House of Commons are concerned, I know the translation is made without delay. I was told by Mr. Desaul-niers that they are translating from the English copy in manuscript; they do not have to wait until a version of the report is printed. Another reason, and this is the one mentioned by the hon. member for Bonaventure, is that they do not work at the Bureau on the two languages simultaneously. I do not know whether this can be done now in the space at our disposal. Soon, I hope, we shall have another building, and then we shall be able to do it.


Charles Marcil: Seeing that both languages are official, I think it is very important that there should be a French section in the establishment. These documents have to be printed in both languages and that can only be done by having a French section of the Bureau, which could be turning out the French copy simultaneously with the English.


Mr. M. MARTIN:: (Translation). What
are the working hours?


Louis Coderre: (Translation). Forty-eight hours per week.


William Melville Martin: (Translation). Is it the
intention of the hon. minister to adopt the eight-hour day?


Louis Coderre: (Translation):	It has
been adopted already.


Charles Murphy: May I add another word to what has already been said with reference to the publication of ' Hansard ' in French? The matter which has been brought up by my hon. friend from Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) was under consideration four years ago, when the present Judge Gervais, then member .for Montreal, was Chairman of the Debates Committee. Through him and his committee, a new arrangement was made in conjunction with the Printing Bureau by which ' Hansard ' was brought out in French much more quickly than it had previously been. Certain rules were drawn up and printed, and the Secretary of State will find a copy of those rules, possibly in his own department, certainly down at the Printing Bureau. At that time certain changes were made in the matter of translating, producing copy, having it sent to the Bureau and having the proofs read, to the end that the publications in French and English might be produced simultaneously,
10 p.m. and, if that was not possible, then to have the French copies issued as speedily as they could be produced. A very marked improvement was made at that time, and I have no doubt the process is carried out under the regime of my hon. friend. There are a great many reasons why this occasional delay occurs, but with co-operation between the branches of Parliament, and the departments, and the Printing Bureau, there is no good reason why there should be any substantial delay in connection with any of these publications. It simply entails constant attention to the details of the work and good will on the part of those charged with producing it. My hon. friend will find that, if these conditions exist, the French publications will come out almost at the same time as the English publications, as undoubtedly they should.


Charles Marcil: The change brought about by Mr. Gervais consisted chiefly in having the ' Hansard ' office send a duplicate copy to the Printing Bureau and the translators' office. The translation went on while the English version was being printed. The French copy was afterwards sent to the Bureau, where there were two proofreaders, and the result was that the French ' Hansard ' was delivered here 24 hours after the English ' Hansard.' The result was very satisfactory in every respect. I do not know whether the same arrangement still continues, but we are not complaining

about the French ' Hansard ' so much as the other reports.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Perhaps the committee would be interested in knowing what improvements the translators have brought about. I have before me a statement showing the translation done from July X, 1912, to January 27, 1913, practically six months. The total number of pages translated was 6,904. I have also a statement showing the work done by the new organization from September 16, 1913, to January 28, 1914. That is only four months as compared with the other six months, and in those four months the number of pages translated was 9,206.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Does that statement
show what reports and blue book have been translated?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Yes, it gives everything in detail. There is the report of the Committee on Agriculture and Colonization, the Veterinary Director General's Report; reports of the Railway Commission, Technical Education Commission, Naval Department, Postmaster General's Report, and so on. So that under the new regime 9,206 pages were translated in four months, whilst under the old regime only 6,904 pages were translated in six months. That is a great improvement.


Charles Marcil: Do the translators still
complain about the Printing Bureau? The old complaint used to be that the copy was sent down there, and allowed to remain for weeks and sometimes months before being attended to. They placed the fault on the Printing Bureau. Has that been altered? Does the Printing Bureau proceed with the copy as soon as it gets it?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: We will make inquiries about that.


Charles Marcil: If the Printing Bureau
proceeded with the work as soon as they received the French copy, I do not think there would be any trouble.	.


Louis Coderre: If the reports are wanted in both languages, I believe part of that work will have to be done outside.


Rodolphe Lemieux: As the Government has appointed additional translators and materially increased the translating staff, there is no reason why we should not aim at getting the reports in French and English simultaneously. It is a matter of right, and we have been bringing it up for years and years at every session but without results. I am quite ready to admit that the Government

took the right step when last year it increased the staff of translators, and now that a start has been made in this matter, why should we not complete it? The country expects that the blue books shall be distributed to the French section as well as to the English section of the community. They ought to be published simultaneously, and my hon. friend should see that they are, now that the copy gets in in due time. My hon. friend has been in journalism for a number of years, so have I, and so has my hon. friend from Bona-venture (Mr. Marcil) and we all know that a French blue book from Ottawa was a standing joke in the French editorial staffs. If a Freneh-Canadian journalist wanted to quote from a blue book, from the Auditor General's Report or from the report of the Postmaster General, or from any other report he had to wait at least twelve months before he could get it. That is not fair. As a result the people of our province were deprived of the benefit of the information contained in the blue books. The members could send a certain number to their constituents. The journalists had to translate from the blue books printed in English and, as a matter of fact, the press of the province of Quebec, and part of the press of the Maritime provinces, was deprived of the benefit of the information contained in the blue books. Now we have reorganized the translation office. I think we have appointed good men with the exception of those who translated this Journal of the House. Let us now complete that work and see that the blue books are published and distributed in French and English simultaneously. If the Secretary of State can accomplish that feat he will deserve well of his province.


Louis Coderre: I have already been
trying to do something in that line.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: My experience in my own department has been very much the same. I would like to put on the table of the House, as the law requires, the two versions of the report of my department at - the same time. We have been hammering at the Printing Bureau and trying to get the French version at the same time as the English version, but they say that they cannot do it; it is a matter of utter impossibility. They say: We have neither the space nor the men; if we had a Printing Bureau, such as that which has been very properly suggested by the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy), we would be able to do the work, but it is out of the question

now; we cannot do it. I have been urging upon my colleague the Secretary of State that the report should he sent outside, but they have begun upon the work and it is too late to send it outside. There is not enough space and not enough men to get out the two versions at the same time. The suggestion made by my hon. friend from Rouville is a very proper one. If the Printing Bureau cannot do the work they should not undertake it. Let it be done outside and let us have it as we should have it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I might refer to a report which was handled last year by the hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Roche) on the question of immigration. The report was prepared by Mr. Asselin, a very interesting report, and, as my hon. friend knows, one that was well prepared. I have been asking for that report since last year but I have not been able to get it.


Louis Coderre: In French?


Rodolphe Lemieux: In French. It was prepared in French. It is a very important report and I would like to get it. I have always taken a deep interest in this question of immigration from France and Belgium, but up to the present time I have been unable to get the report. This report was sent in nearly two years ago, and yet we have only been able to get a typewritten copy. It is not fair to the members speaking the French language that we should have to wait so long for a report which is of special interest to our province.


Charles Marcil: I would like to remind the committee that the French version is as official as the English version. We always refer to the French translation of these documents, but we must not forget that the publication of a document in the French language is as official as it is in the English language. I might mention the unfortunate position in which I was placed two years ago upon my return from France. I had met certain public men there who were anxious to become familiar with the governmental affairs of Canada, and they asked me to send information upon the subject. I consulted the library and I was in many instances obliged to send over blue books printed in the English language because of the delay in the printing of the blue books in the French language. The French translators say: We have done our share, but the fault lies at the Printing Bureau. I hope that this difficulty will be overcome if we get a new Printing Bureau. Canada is going ahead by leaps and bounds, 47
our trade with France has increased to $15,000,000, our trade with European countries is rapidly increasing and I hope the Government will see to it that the French language is given its proper share of attention in the preparation of official publications.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I must say to the hon. Secretary of State that I believe it is necessary to appoint a King's printer who knows thoroughly both languages and can give fair play to both nationalities.
It is one of my reasons for insisting upon the .appointment of M. Tache, who is thoroughly able, and being well acquainted with the needs of the two official languages of this country, he would see to it that justice be done to both nationalities.


Charles Murphy: While my hon. friend the Secretary of State may have some sins to answer for, a good deal of the criticism that has been directed towards the delay in getting out the publications in French is really a matter that does not appertain to the Department of the Secretary of State. The Printing Bureau should be what its name indicates: it should not be any part of the business of the Printing Bureau to do translation. There should not be any translators there. The Printing Bureau should be supplied with copy ready for the printer without the intervention of any other class of people, just as copy is supplied to any other printing establishment. It is a mistake to mix the printing and the translation. The translation should be something apart from the Printing Bureau altogether. I only mention this because a good deal of discussion has centred upon the delay which I believe undoubtedly takes place in connection with the translation. This delay, I am bound to say in all fairness, is not the fault of my hon. friend or of the officials who are employed under him at the Printing Bureau and who should be called upon to do the printing and printing only and not translation. In connection with the important question that was asked by my hon. friend from Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) in regard to this new position of Assistant King's Printer, the Secretary of State very courteously replied to the question, but he did not give my hon. friend very much information with the result that the curiosity of my hon. friend has not been entirely satisfied. Is it the intention to fill this position by promotion in the department?


Louis Coderre: The matter has only recently been considered in consequence



of the illness and death of Mr. Par-melee. As my hon. friend knows, the names which have been mentioned are names of men not at present employed in the Printing Bureau.


Charles Murphy: I am asking the hon. gentleman if, when he comes to fill the position, he will fill it by the promotion of some person employed in the Printing Bureau?


Louis Coderre: I am not sure. Personally I would like to fill that position, but I do not know yet whether there will be a promotion or not. This part of the question has not been considered yet. I will, of course, try to do what I think best in the interest of the Bureau. There are employees at the head of branches who are doing pretty well as heads of these branches. I do not know that they will be competent to fill the position of King's Printer. The position would require something more than that a man be simply an accountant, he would have to be a man of administrative ability. The question should remain in abeyance for a few days.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Until after the session.


Louis Coderre: No, but the matter will have to remain in abeyance for a short time.


Charles Murphy: Will the appointment be made by the Civil Service Commission?


Louis Coderre: It will have to be made according to law by the Civil Service Commissioners.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: That is, 'the candidates will have to pass an examination?


Louis Coderre: I do not know. Whatever the law requires will be done.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The law requires that
every person has to pass an examination before being recommended by the Civil Service Commission.


Louis Coderre: I believe in this case, being a technical position, no examination would be required. The Civil Service Commission could issue a certificate according to Clause 21 of the Act, and in that case I do not think they would be obliged to hold a competitive examination.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I was pleased to hear my hon. friend the minister, in answer to my hon. friend (Mr. Murphy), say that the appointment would be made only in regard to the ability of the man to fill the position. Will my hon. friend follow that course?


Louis Coderre: Yes, I am in earnest.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I hope my hon. friend will carry out what he says, because that is the spirit I would like to see engendered in the public service. If he found that he had not a man in his department able to fill the position from an administrative standpoint, if he took in some one from the outside and made the appointment purely and simply in the interest of the department, to further the organization of his department and to better his department, I think I would be perfectly satisfied, because that is the spirit that should predominate. When I first asked my hon. friend the question, he told me that it was necessary to have an assistant because the work was so great. If it is necessary to have an assistant in a great department of that kind, the appointee of course would have to have some knowledge of printing, but the principle recommendation should be his powers of organization and administration. From such a large department my hon. friend surely could get some poor fellow who had earned his advance and could give him a step up in the world.


Mr. BUREAU:: Is it the policy of the minister to promote employees who are qualified, provided the interests of his department are properly safeguarded?


Louis Coderre: Yes, it is the policy of the department and numerous proofs of this have already been given, in the Estimates of last year and in the Estimates of this year. From a perusal of these Estimates my hon. friend will see many promotions.


Jacques Bureau: Many increases.


Louis Coderre: Yes, the statutory increases. I cannot do more than that.


Jacques Bureau: Is there in the Printing Bureau a separate staff for the printing of French? Have you a certain number of men employed to print the French versions of the various documents, such as the Debates of the House or the Votes and Proceedings; or have you got a common staff with a number of men who can do the work in French and English and who, when they are not required to print French, are shifted into the English department?


Louis Coderre: All the men employed
there can do both.


Jacques Bureau: All the men employed in the Printing Bureau understand both French and English and are able to do the work in either French or English?


Louis Coderre: Yes, they are able to do the work in either French or English.


Jacques Bureau: Is that one of the qualifications of employment in the Printing Bureau?


Louis Coderre: The work done there is done by the men, whether it is French or English.


Jacques Bureau: Is the French work done by English printers who do not know French? Take the French version of
Hansard.' Does the minister mean to say that an English printer who knows no French at all is asked to print the French version of ' Hansard?'


Louis Coderre: No, I do not want to
say that. There are employees there who can speak French and English. I believe the Superintendent of Printing is a man wise enough to give the French ' Hansard ' to an employee who understands French. As a matter of fact, there is no such division as the one mentioned by my hon. friend; there is no special French or English staS. The Superintendent of Printing divides the work among the men according to what they know. If the work to be printed is French, the Superintendent of Printing gives that work to a man who understands French, and vice versa.


Jacques Bureau: Have you any men in
the Printing Bureau who can print both French and English; that is, who know both the French and English languages? You say the Superintendent of Printing is a wise man. I do not believe that any wise man would give English copy to a Frenchman who did not know a word of English, or give French copy to an Englishman who did not know a word of French. Have you any men who can print in French, but cannot print in English, because they do not know the English language and have you any men who can print in English but cannot print in French because they do not know the French language?


Louis Coderre: Do you want to know
if all the employees can speak both languages and can therefore print in both languages?


Jacques Bureau: Yes.


Louis Coderre: I could not answer that now. If my hon. friend will give me time, I will make the necessary investigation.


Jacques Bureau: If you have any French printers who can print both languages, when work is not sufficient to keep them 47i
busy, do you switch them on to English printing in preference to employees who know only one language and can only print in one language, or do yoti dispense with their services for the time being and keep men on who know only one language in preference to those who know two?


Louis Coderre: Personally, I do not
know what the Superintendent of Printing does in such cases. I know that he has been following the rules which have been in existence for many years.


Jacques Bureau: What are the rules? I want to know if a man who knows both languages has the preference, when work diminishes and somebody has to be laid off, over a man who knows only one language,


Louis Coderre: I do not believe that such a preference has been given, or that occasion for it has arisen, for the number of employees there, instead of decreasing, is always increasing. There is always work for the employees there.


Jacques Bureau: Do I understand the minister to say that men employed during the session remain the year round?


Louis Coderre: Yes, I do not know of any dismissals, nor any decrease in the work.


Jacques Bureau: Does not the printing of 'Hansard' and other sessional documents mean more work during the session?


Louis Coderre: Yes.


Jacques Bureau: And are no extra men employed?


Louis Coderre: I do not know of any temporary employees.


Charles Murphy: During the session they run the Bureau at night as well as by day.


Jacques Bureau: But the men do not work twenty-four hours a day. Among the temporary employees for the session, do you make a discrimination, giving the preference to the men who know both languages?


Louis Coderre: The occasion for such preference has never presented itself. There is plenty of work.


Jacques Bureau: Not for the temporary men?


Louis Coderre: There are none.


Jacques Bureau: The hon. gentleman said there were.
Mr.* CODERRE: No, I said there were not -any. The employees who work at night during the session work during the day out of session.


Jacques Bureau: Does the minister employ the same number of men the year round?


Louis Coderre: Of course during the session they do the work that is urgent, and other work is set aside. At the end of the session there is an accumulation of work to keep all hands busy.


Jacques Bureau: That is a very ambiguous answer to a plain question. Does the minister employ the same number of men the year round?


Louis Coderre: No, because the number is always increasing.


Jacques Bureau: But does the minister keep them the year round?


Louis Coderre: I have not found any
men who wish to- leave, and personally I have no desire to send them away.


Jacques Bureau: It is not a question of
what the men wish or what the minister desires. It is clear that during the session there is an extra amount of work. I ask if -the same number of men are employed the year round, and the minister tells me that the number goes on increasing. What is the proportion of that increase?-five, six, seven a month?


Louis Coderre: I cannot say offhand. Mr. BUREAU:	Could not the minister
give it in general terms?


Louis Coderre: I could bring all these
details at a later date.


Jacques Bureau: If there are more Estimates for this department I would like to have these details.


Louis Coderre: Yes, there will be more.
Civil Government-The Department of the Public Archives-Salaries, $o3,800 , contingencies, $7,500.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How many officers are
there in the Archives and what do they do?


Louis Coderre: There are twenty-seven, -and they copy public documents and care for the collection already made.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Have you any employed outside?


Louis Coderre: Yes, two in England and three in Paris.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Who are in Paris?


Louis Coderre: Mr. Beauchene, Mr. Buron and Mr. Dugas. I believe _ that a young man named Morin has received an appointment recently, but I do not know that he is there yet.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What do you pay copyists?


Louis Coderre: Some of them $50 a
month.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Who are the copyists in England? 1


Louis Coderre: Mr. Biggar and Mr. French. Mr. -Biggar has been there for years, hut Mr. French is a young Montrealer who was sent there a few months ago.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Are any employed in the United States?


Louis Coderre: I believe that a few
months ago a young man named Lanctot was sent to California for special work.


Charles Murphy: A commission was
appointed some time ago to make an inspection of the departments with a view to collecting documents which could properly be added to the Archives. Has that commission reported?


Louis Coderre: Not yet.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I see the hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. Rogers) in his place, -and I desire to call his attention to the Archives. Would it not be well for him to consider the advisability o.f erecting a new building for the Archives, or at least enlarging the present one? I understand that -a delegation waited upon -him some time to urge the necessity of enlarging that building.
As a matter of fact, having occasion to frequent the building quite often, I know that it is impossible to accommodate all the documents within the four walls of the present building. The building is very unsuitable, and in view of the importance of the Archives Department, I think it should be enlarged, and be of a more imposing nature. Has the Minister of Public Works considered this matter, and if so, what does he intend to do about it ?


Robert Rogers: When I had the pleasure of meeting the deputation to which my hon. friend refers, this matter was discussed, and the idea put forward by the deputation was that in the event of the

construction of a new building for the archives, which was deemed to be necessary, it should be constructed on the lower end of the property recently purchased on Wellington street. Nothing further than that has taken place.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I wish to call the attention of the minister to the fact that the copyists in London and Paris are paid only $50 a month. Generally the young men employed in that work are students. This employment does not last for many years, but during the time they are employed by the Dominion Government they should at least be paid a reasonable salary. $50 a month in Paris or London is certainly not a living allowance, and it should be doubled.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 10.42 p.m.
Friday, February 13, 1914.