1914-04-06

PRIVATE BILLS.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 148, for the relief of George Grade Smith.-Mr. McKay.
Bill No. 149, for the relief of Harry Cra-croft Pugh.-Mr. Douglas.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 89, respecting the University of Saskatchewan, and to change its name to The University of Emmanuel College.- Mr. McKay.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 140, to incorporate the National Council of Women of Canada.-Sir E. Osier.
Bill No. 141, respecting The Rainy River Radial Railway Company.-Mr. Carrick.
Bill No. 142, respecting The Pacific Trans-Canada and Hudson Bay Railway Company.-Mr. Douglas.
Bill No. 143, respecting a patent of John Roger Arnoldi.- Mr. Macdonell.
Bill No. 144, for the relief of Henry Elmer Bicknell.-Mr. McCraney.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. HENDERSON:: X. What is the number of half-yearly renewal term policies of certificates of insurance issued by the Federal Life Assurance Company of Canada and now in force?
2 What are the names and present post office addresses of the holders of the said policies or certificates of insurance?


Mr. WHITE:: The Insurance Department has no information concerning the matters referred to.


TRADE COMMISSIONER GRIGG.
Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: 1.	What is the salary of Mr. Grigg, Trade Commissioner of Canada?
2.	When was he engaged, and for what period of time?
3.	What are his duties and responsibilities.
4.	Where was he employed previous to his appointment as Trade Commissioner of Canada, and what salary was he then paid?
5. Has he any agents or commissioners under him? If so, how many and where are they located ?


Mr. G. E. FOSTER:: 1.	$6,000 per year.
2.	About two and a half years ago, on the same condition as to time of service as other civil servants.
3.	His duties and responsibilities are to advise the minister on trade and commercial matters, and he has charge of the trade commissioners and performs such other services as naturally falls under his division.
4.	He was British Trade Commissioner for Canada at the same salary as he is now paid.
5.	All trade agents and commissioners as set forth in the weekly report.



COASTING PRIVILEGES.

Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Has the Government received a protest from Ship Masters' Association of Canada No.
1 in the following language:
*We, the Ship Masters' Association No. 1 of Canada, protest against the renewing of the Order in Council granting coasting privileges to foreign steamers in our coasting or home trade, this privilege being a serious detriment to Canadian master mariners,. marine engineers and seamen.
>
'We also request you to use your influence to have the Government appoint a royal commission to look thoroughly into this coasting trade, and would appreciate having Alex. G. Baillie, of Port Hastings, on said commission. Why? Because Canada has been reduced from the fourth shipping maritime nation in the world to eleventh place.'
2.	If so, what action does the Government intend to take in the premises?
3.	Has the Government by an Order in Council, extended the time for granting coasting privileges to foreign steamers?
4.	If so, what is the date of such Order in Council?
5.	To what foreign countries is this privilege
given?	,
6.	How many foreign ships took advantage of this concession during the year 1913?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No action in the matter has been taken since the receipt of the protest of 27th February, 1914.
3.	4 and 5. By Order in Council of December 8, 1911, the privilege of the coasting trade between ports in Nova Scotia and ports in Quebec was given until the 31st day of December, 1913, to steamers of not less than 1,500 tons gross to each of the following countries:	Italy, Germany, the
Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Austro-Hungary, Denmark, Belgium, the Argentine Republic and Japan. Bv Order in

Council the 16th December, 1913, the same privilege was granted until the 31st day of December, 1914, to steamships of not less than 2,000 tons gross tonnage each of the following countries:	Norway, Sweden,
Austro-Hungary and Japan.
6.	There has not been any record compiled showing the number of these ships.



COST OF LIVING COMMISSION.

Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	Is it true that the royal commission at present investigating the high cost of living has been taking evidence behind closed doors'7 If so, why?
2.	Were the commissioners so instructed by the Government?


Mr. BORDEN:: 1.	The Board of Inquiry investigating the high cost of living have been taking evidence both in public and private, as best it can be secured.
2.	The Government instructed that investigation should be most thorough and did not advise as to or limit procedure.



BLUE BOOKS IN FRENCH.

[Stage Direction]
translated in the departments: Trade and Commerce, Public Works, Marine and Fisheries.
Printing and Stationery is in course of translation.
2.	Probably all the blue books referred to will be published before the end of the present session.
3.	There has been no unnecessary delay. The extensive nature of the work has necessitated the time taken in translation and printing.
4.	The matter of the proper equipment of the translation branch and of the Printing Bureau for doing the work with reasonable promptitude is under consideration.

Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	What amount was offered by the Government to the Carslake Hotel Company for the purchase* of its property near Bonaventure Station, Montreal, before the expropriation proceedings were entered into in the Exchequer Court?
2.	What were the terms of said offer?
3.	What was the date of said offer?


Mr. FORTIER:: 1.	What date will the French version of the following departmental blue books be distributed to Parliament:-Auditor General, 3 vols.: Postmaster General; Inland Revenue; Trade and Commerce, 7 parts; Railways and Canals ; Public Works ; Marine and Fisheries; Interior; Secretary of State, Mines, Printing and Stationery; Penitentiaries; Labour; Public Accounts, and Trade and Navigation?
2.	Will these blue books, or any of them, be published before the present Session is prorogued ?
3.	Who is responsible for delaying the publication of these important blue books?
4.	Is the translation branch or the Printing Bureau equipped to do the work within a reasonable period? If not, why not?


Mr. BORDEN:: The Auditor General's Report is being translated at the Printing Bureau.
The Inland Revenue Report, Part 1, Excise, was published in French, 8th January, 1914. Part II, Weights and Measures, was published in French, February 7, 1914. Part III, Adulteration of Food, was sent to the Bureau, October 24, 1913.
Railways and Canals translation sent to the Bureau on January 8.
Interior translation completed March 17 and sent to Bureau; Secretary of State, ditto, January 27; Mines, ditto, August 29,' 1913; Penitentiaries, ditto, February 10; Labour, ditto, December 6, 1913; Public Accounts, ditto, November 27, 1913; Postmaster General, ditto, March 26.	*
The following blue hooks are being


Mr. ROGERS:: No offer made.



CAPTAIN N. T. TOWNSEND.

Mr. CARROLL:: 1.	Has Mr. Vincent Mullins, of Sydney, Nova Scotia, received authority from the Marine and Fisheries Department or any person in connection therewith, to ask for the resignation of one Captain N. T. Townsend, the Port Warden of Sydney?
2.	Has the department asked for the resignation of Captain Townsend?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1 and 2. In view of the fact that Captain Townsend was reported as being unable to satisfactorily perform his official duties, owing to advanced age and infirmities, Mr. Vincent Mullins, agent of the department at Sydney, was instructed to call upon Captain Townsend, explain the situation to him, and obtain from him his resignation. Mr. Mullins reported that Captain Townsend claimed to be competent to perform his duties as port warden for the present, and no further action was taken.



MONTREAL MILITARY GROUNDS.

Mr. CARVELL:: 

MEETINGS OF RAILWAY COMMISSION.

Mr. BOULAY:: How many meetings did each of the Railway Commissioners attend from the 1st of April, 1913, to the 31st of March, 1914?



SS. CANADA.

Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Has the steamer ' Canada,' under contract for the service between Campbellton, N.B., and GaspS, Quebec, undergone an inspection by the Government inspectors during the present season and been overhauled in dry-dock?
2.	If so, what has been the result of such Inspection ?


John Douglas Hazen: The SS. Canada was inspected by the Government inspectors and granted a certificate on the 5th May, 1913; this certificate expired on the 1st December, 1913. No further report of official inspection has yet been made to the department, and no certificate for 1914 has been issued.


Mr. MARCIL:: 1	Is the Department of Trade and Commerce aware as to whether the steamer Canada is to perform the service between Campbellton, N.B. and Gasp6, Quebec, this season?
2	In case the Canada does not perform this service, has the department received any offer to substitute any other, steamer?
3.	If so, what is the steamer, and has any agreement been entered into to that effect, or is any under consideration?


Mr. G. E. FOSTER:: 

NEW RICHMOND FREIGHT SHED.

Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Is a freight shed being erected on New Richmond wharf, Quebec?
2.	What is to be the cost of this building and who is doing the work?
3.	Were tenders called for, who secured the contract, and at what price?
4.	Who is overseeing the work, and who recommended the appointment?


Mr. J. D. REID:: 1.	There were fifty-four meetings of the board which the commissioners attended as follows: chief commissioner, 48; assistant chief commissioner, 31; deputy chief commissioner, none; Commissioner Mills, 28; Commissioner McLean, 32; Commissioner Goodeve, 35.
At the above meetings 814 formal applications were heard.
This return does not include the chamber attendance of the members or unlisted meetings, both of which have resulted in 4,160 matters being dealt with during this period. All the commissioners with the exception of the deputy chief 'Commissioner, whose health has prevented his attendance, have been regularly in attendance at the board's offices.



HARVEY JUNCTION-COCHRANE TRAIN SERVICE.

Mr. LEMIEUN:: Who besides the settlers of the Abitibi and the Quebec Board of Trade have petitioned the Minister of Railways and Canals to run trains on the Transcontinental railway between Harvey Junction and Cochrane?


Mr. J. D. REID:: The Department of
Railways and Canals has received no petition to run trains on the Transcontinental railway between Harvey Junction and Cochrane except the one from the settlers of Abitibi mentioned in reply to a question *asked by Mr. Lemienx dated March 12, 1914.



HERRING FISHING.

Mr. EMMERSON:: Is it the intention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to publish in the Canada, Gazette during the present spring months a notice excepting herring from the operation of the 43rd section, or any part of the same section, of the Fisheries Act, 1914, for the present sea-


John Douglas Hazen: sideration.
The matter is under con-


Robert Rogers: INTOXICANTS AT TRAINING CAMPS.
1.	Yes,	Mr. PROULX:2.	$173.03.	j. is it a fact that the canteens where beer3.	No; work done by day labour.	may be purchased by non-commissioned officers
and men, has been abolished at the annual training camps?
2.	Is it a fact that the officers attending the above camps still have the privilege of whisky, beer and other intoxicating liquors in their messes?
3.	If the above are answerable in the affirmative, why is there an apparent discrimination against the non-commissioned officers and men?
Mr. SAM. HUGHES:
1.	Beer may not be purchased in any annual training camps of the Canadian militia by any officer, non-commissioned officer, man or civilian.
2.	No.
3.	This question is improper.



HERON ISLAND POWER HOUSE.

Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Has the Government given permission to a company to build a power house on Heron island, near Lachine rapids, and to construct a dam on the St. Lawrence river at that place?
2.	What is the name of the company?
3.	Have said works been authorized by the Government engineer?


Robert Rogers: No.



GOVERNMENT NEWSPAPER ADVERTISING.

Mr. SINCLAIR:: Referring to an item of $6,000 found on page W. 52, Vol. 3, Auditor General's Report, paid to James Battle and N W. Gowan for manufacturing 20 steel castings, what are the names of the newspapers in which the advertisement calling for tenders for this work appeared and the dates of such advertisements?


John Dowsley Reid: There were no tenders called for by newspaper advertisement for the above. Messrs. James Battle and N. W. Cowan are the patentees for the Cowan safety appliance. This device consists of two heavy steel eastings on each leaf of the upper gates, four castings to a lock, weighing over 1,600 pounds each. The device is intended to prevent the forcing downstream of one gate leaf when the other has been accidentally pushed back by a vessel in the lock. Two years ago the head gates of one of the locks of this canal were equipped with this device, and in May, 1912, an upbound vessel surging forward struck into the mitre and opened it; a similar accident occurred in the same lock in the month of August, 1912. The superintending engineer advised, he is satisfied, that in both cases the device avoided a very serious accident. An offer had been sought from Messrs. James Battle and N. W. Cowan, the owners of the patent, for the supply of twenty steel castings forming the Cowan safety appliance. An TMr. Proulx.l
offer was received from them approved by the superintending engineer, and accepted by Order in Council, dated the 26th of August, 1912, for the bulk sum of $6,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Referring to an item of $6,705.51 found on page W. 48, Vol. 3 Auditor General's Report, paid to John and Wm. Burns for two dumping scows, what are the names of the newspapers in which the advertisements calling for tenders for this work appeared and the dates of such advertisements?


John Dowsley Reid: There was no newspaper advertisement calling tenders for the above, but a circular letter was sent to each of the following firms, dated the 22nd of May, 1912:	Alexander McKay, Montreal; Gilbert Motor Boat Company, Brock-ville; Kingston Shipbuilding Company, Kingston; Ottawa Boat Works, Ottawa; William Watters, Hull; Napoleon Tessier, Hull; J. & R. Weir, Montreal; N. Beatty & Sons, Limited, Welland; John Burns, Ottawa.


John Howard Sinclair: Referring to an item of $6,300 found on page W. 49 Vol. 3 Auditor General's Report, paid to W. H. Kelly Lumber Company, for wooden tug, what are the names of the newspapers in which the advertisement calling for tenders for this work appeared and the dates of such advertisement?


John Dowsley Reid: There was no newspaper advertisement calling tenders for the above, but a circular letter, dated the 4th of May! 1912, was sent to the following firms: Davis and Sons, Kingston; Ottawa Forwarding Company, Limited, Ottawa; La Cie Pontbriand Ltee, Sorel; Canadian General and Shoe Machinery Company Limited, Levis; J. G. Gri-dley and Son, Midland; Georgian Bay Shipbuilding and Wrecking Company, Midland; Hamilton Motor Works, Hamilton; W. Watts and Sons, Colling-wood; Doty Engine Works Company, Goderich; Poison Iron Works Limited, Toronto; W. H. Kelly Lumber Company, Buckingham; J. and R. Weir, Montreal; Sincennes McNaughton Line, Limited, Montreal; St. Lawrence Engine Company, Limited, Brock-ville; A. R. Williams Machinery Company, Limited, Toronto; Robertson Brothers, Hamilton; Ottawa Boat Works, Ottawa.


John Howard Sinclair: Referring to an item of $2,089.24 found on page W., Vol. 3, Auditor General's Report, paid to Rhodes, Curry Company, Halifax, for repairs to freight cars, what are the names of the newspapers in which the advertisement calling for tenders for this work appeared and the dates of such advertisements?


John Dowsley Reid: There was no contract for repairs to freight cars, and no newspaper advertisement calling for tenders ^for the same. The item referred to in page 'W volume III, Auditor General's Report of $2,089,24, was in connection with a contract with Messrs. Rhodes Curry -and Company, sublet to Mr. E. A. Wallberg, for balance in settlement of a claim in connection with the building of the freight car repair shop and planing mill.



OTTAWA BUILDING LEASES.

Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 1 Has the Government leased a part of a buiiding in Ottawa belonging to the Journal Publishing Company or to Mr. P. D. Ross?
2. If so, for what term and at what price?


Mr. ROGERS:: 
Mr. KYTE:: 1.	Has the Government leased any part of the Rea building, Ottawa?	.	-
o if go, how much of it has been leased, for' how long and at what price per square foot?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	Yes.
2.	The three upper floors, at 70 cents a superficial foot, for 5 years from date of occupation; not yet occupied.
employment op h. h. loucks.


Mr. KYTE:: 1.	How long was H. H. Loucks employed on the staff of the House of Commons"
2.	When did such employment cease.
3.	What is the amount of his mperannua-
* 4, Has he been employed by the House of Commons, or any department of the Government, since the date of his superannuation?
'5 If so, what is the nature of such employment, where is the work performed and what is the rate of remuneratio i given to him.
6. How much has he drawn as salary or remuneration for such work since the date of his superannuation ?


Mr. BORDEN:: 1.	He was so employed for twenty-two years and two months.
2.	July 1, 1913.
3.	$704.
4.	He has been temporarily employed.
5.	Proof-reading in the House of Commons at $3.50 per diem.
6.	He has drawn pay at the above rate since the 2nd of September, 1913; total amount to April 1, $738.50.



INTERNATIONAL HORSE SHOW.

Mr. CARVELL:: 1.	Have any horses belonging to Hon. Adam Beck been sent to England by the Department of Militia and Defence?
2.	If so, how many and what is the total cost to the department to date?
3.	Are any of tbe said horses still there. If so, is the department defraying the whole or any portion of the expenses cnereof?


Mr. S. HUGHES:: 1.	The following officers of the Canadian Militia composed the Canadian team sent to England last year to compete at the International Horse Show, and supplied their own horses: Major C, T, Van Straubenzie, Royal Canadian Dragoons; Lieut. H. N. Bate, 5th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards; Lieut. R. Gordon Myles, 9th Mississauga Horse. Hon. Adam Beck was in charge of the Canadian team.
2.	$1,451.46.
3.	No.



DISMISSALS.

Mr. VERVILLE:: 1.	Has Mr. Parent, assistant engineer in the Public Works Department in Montreal, been dismissed or suspended? If so, when?
2.	What were the reasons for such dismissal
or suspension?		
3.	Was there a report made against him? If so, of what nature and by whom?
4.	Has there been an investigation held in that matter, or is it the intention of the Government to grant Mr. Parent such investigation?
5.	Was Mr. Parent on the permanent staff, and is he supposed to receive notice? If so, of how many days?
6.	Is a Government employee on the permanent staff supposed to receive any pay after notice is given? If so, for how long?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	(a) Yes; (b) .March 11, 1914.
2.	Services no longer required.
3.	No.
4.	(a) No; (b) not considered necessary.
5 and 6. No.


Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	On what ground has William Campbell, lightkeeper of the lights on New Richmond wharf Quebec, been dismissed?
2.	Was Campbell given an opportunity of meeting the charges made, if any, and by whom were such charges made?
3.	Was an investigation held? If so, by whom, and what witnesses were heard?
4.	Who recommended the appointment of James Robertson to succeed William Campbell?


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	Political partisanship.
2.	(a) Yes. The department is informed that he was advised, by registered letter, of the time and place of the inquiry; (b) Messrs. H. W.. Doddridge, J. H. Robert-

son, J. A. Mousseau, J. E. Mill, D. Cham-poux.
3.	(a) Yes; (b) Mr. W. A. E. Flynn; (c) Messrs. W. Doddridge, C. A. Brunelle and J. H. Robertson.
4 Mr. D. Champonx.



UNOPPOSED AND UNDISCUSSED MOTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. C. Marcll.-For a copy of all documents bearing on the dismissal of Thomas Le Blanc, as postmaster of Allard, Bonaventure county, and the appointment of his successor.
Mr. A. W. Chisholm.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams, correspondence, complaints, bills, accounts!, vouchers, receipts and any documents in any way connected with the expenditure of money at Friar's Head boat harbour by Simon P. Doucet, during the years 1912-13, 1913-14.
Mr. A. W. Chisholm.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams, correspondence, complaints and documents of all kinds in any way connected with the asking for tenders for the mail route between Low Point and Creignish Station during the years 1913-14.
Mr. Gauvreau.-For a copy of all correspondence, accounts, indemnities, travelling expenses, etc., from Fraserville to Quebec, and of all other documents relating to the amount of money received each year by His Honour Mr. Justice Ernest Cimon, from 1890 to 1913, as judge of the Superior Court sitting at Quebec, during the time he was connected with the district of Kamouraska.
Mr. Lemieux.-For a copy of all papers, letters, telegrams, reports, Orders in Council, etc., in connection with the proposed purchase of the property known as the Carslake Hotel near Bonaventure Station, Montreal.
Mr. Knowles.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams, documents, papers, etc., in connection with the purchase by the Government of Lots 1 and _2, Block 125, Plan 96, in the city of Moosejaw, for an examining warehouse site.
Mr. Law.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams and correspondence received since April 1, 1912, by ^ the Minister of Militia, or the officials of his department, from any person or persons of Yarmouth, N.S., or vicinity, relating to bounties payable to Fenian Raid veterans or applicants for same.
Mr. Law.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams and correspondence received by the Postmaster General in connection with complaints made that the postmaster at Yarmouth North, N.S., had been or is selling postage stamps outside his jurisdiction.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a return showing whether the Government has purchased any coal, freight or passenger cars during the past six months for the Intercolonial railway; if so, from whom and in what quantity; what price was paid in each case; whether any tenders were called for the same; who the tenderers were and the amount of each tender.
Mr. Marcll.-For a copy of all documents, investigation reports and letters, concerning the dismissal of William Campbell, lightkeeper on the wharf at New Richmond, Quebec, and the appointment of James Robertson as his successor ; together with a copy of recommendations and the letters respecting the appointment, if any.
Mr. Sinclair.-For a copy of all petitions, letters, complaints and other documents relating [Mr. Hazen.j
to the dismissal of Charles McPherson, postmaster at North Riverside, county of Guysbor-ough, N.S., and of all recommendations and correspondence relating to the appointment of his successor; also a copy of all evidence and of the repost of the investigation, if any, and a statement of the expenses of said investigation.
Mr. Law. For a copy of all letters, telegrams and correspondence, as well as of tenders for dredging, received by the Minister of Public Works, or officials of his department, relating to dredging and improvements of the harbour of Yarmouth, N.S., from October 1, 1911 to date.
Mr. A. W. Chisholm.-For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, complaints and documents of all kinds received by the Department of Trade and Commerce during the years 1913-14, with respect to the Pictou-Mulgrave-Cheticamp steamship route.
Mr. Sinclair.-For a copy of all petitions, correspondence, telegrams and other papers and documents received by the Department of Marine and Fisheries since January 1, 1914, relating to the transportation of fish from the Maritime provinces to the United States, and of all replies thereto.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all letters, petitions and documents relative to the establishment of a rural mail delivery route from New Glasgow through Mount William, Granton and Abercrombie, county of Pictou?
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of the new rules and regulations in regard to employees of the Intercolonial railway and Prince Edward Island railway.
Mr. Macdonald.-For. a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents relative to the purchase of land for a public building at Stellarton, Nova Scotia.
Mr. Macdonald.-For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents relative to the mail contract between New Ross and Vaughan's post office, Waterville, province of Nova Scotia.
Mr. W. Chisholm.-For a copy of all accounts and vouchers covering the expenditure during the calendar year 1913 at South Lake, Lakevale, Antigonish county, and showing in detail, the persons to whom such payments were made, what such payments were for, the number of days labourers employed, and the rate of wages, the quantity of material used and the price paid therefor, the quantity of material hauled to the work and not used, and the persons supplying such material.
Mr. Kyte.-For a copy of all correspondence letters, telegrams, petitions and recommendations relating to the wharf at Arichat, N.S., to be used by SS. Magdalin.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. T. WHITE (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into Committee of Ways and Means. He said:
Mr. Speaker, the Budget Speech of last year was delivered on May 12. Upon that occasion I indicated my views as to the outcome of the fiscal year ended on March 31 previously. The books when finally closed showed the actual results as somewhat better than the estimate which I had made. The main features were, however, substantially as predicted.

Fiscal Year, 1912-13.
The fiscal year 1912-13 was characterized throughout by the greatest expansion the Dominion has yet known. The extraordinary activity in every department of effort, agricultural, industrial, commercial and financial, combined to produce a result strikingly in excess of anything of the kind in our previous fiscal experience. The revenue of the year exceeded that of the preceding year by no less a sum than $32,581,686.09.
The various sources from which this revenue was derived with comparative figures of the two years may be found in the table which I shall now read and place upon ' Hansard ' for the information of members of the House, who may be interested in the statistical details:
Consolidated Revenue Fund.
1911-12.	1912-13.	Increase.$ 85,051,872.IS 19,261,661.97 10,492,394.18 11,034,165.83 10,268,123.20	$111,764,698.73 21,447,444.94 12,051,728.86 12.442.203.46 10.983.827.46	$26,712,826.55 2,185,782.97 1,559,334.68 . 1,408,037.63 715,704.26
$136,108,217.36	$168,689,903.45	$32,581,686.09
It will be observed that the principal increase arose, as was to be expected, from custom® although the revenues from other sources showed also a marked expansion. The remarkable and, so to speak, abnormal activity which characterized the year is reflected in the general increase of the revenue under every heading.
Consolidated Fund: Expenditure, 1912-13.
The consolidated fund expenditure for the yeaT 1912-13 amounted to $112,059,537.41, a sum considerably less than my estimate. The increase in expenditure upon current or ordinary account over that of the previous year amounted to $13,898,096.64. This increase was due to larger appropriations made for the public service generally, to the readjustment of certain provincial subsidies and to enlarged expenditure in the Post Office and Railway Departments, the increase being partially offset by increases in earnings upon the other side of the accounts.
The consolidated fund revenue, amounting, as I have stated, to $168,689,903.45, and the expenditure to $112,059,537.41, the surplus on consolidated fund account for the fiscal year 1912-13 was $56,630,366.04 available for meeting capital and special expenditures, which, in the absence of any surplus, would have to he wholly met by borrowing.
Capital and Special Outlays, 1912-13.
These capital and special outlays were as folio,/. [DOT]
National Transcontinental railway	$13,7-67,011	44Quebec bridge	
1,512,825	96Hudson Bay railway	
1,099,063	15Other railways	
2,509,OSS	l\',Canals	
2,259,257	45Public works	6,057,514 57Railway subsidies	
4,935.507	35Other special charges	
255,647	89-	$32,396,S16	37
On the one hand^then, we had a
surplus of	$56,630,366	04
On the other, a capital and
special outlay of	 32,396,816	37
Or a difference of	$24,233,549 67
If to this we add'	 1,384,285 36
Representing Consolidated Fund expenditure for investment in Sinking Funds, it will be found that the net debt of the country at the close of the year 1912-13 was reduced by the sum of	$25,617,835 03
This is a reduction without parallel in the fiscal history of the Dominion.
The reduction in net debt does not mean that we paid off to that extent the funded debt of Canada by the purchase or redemption of our sterling or currency securities. Out of the surplus which we had over and above all expenditure we invested under legislative authority over $11,000,000 in Grand Trunk Pacific bonds guaranteed by the Dominion, and $2,200,000 in Montreal harbour debentures.
I think I should say here, in connection with this statement, that we have taken into our account, at par, the Grand Trunk Pacific bonds guaranteed by the Govern-
[Stage Direction]
ment, which we have purchased to the amount I have mentioned for the fiscal year 1912-13. The value of these bonds is about 75, and, if the statute had permitted, I should have been disposed to write them down to their true value and enter them at that figure upon the books of the Dominion. But there is no statutory authority for so writing them down. The reason I mention the matter here is because the $11,000,000, which we have on our books as the investment for the year 1912-13 in Grand Trunk Pacific bonds, guaranteed as to principal and interest by the Dominion, would be reduced by about twenty-five percent of that amount, and to that extent the reduction in net debt I have mentioned would be diminished. I think it only fair that I should make that statement. Notwithstanding that, the reduction in the net debt, even if so diminished, would still be without . parallel in the previous history of the Dominion.
Fiscal Year 1913-14.
Turning to the fiscal year 1913-14, which ended on March 31, we find an important factor which has exercised a marked influence upon our finances. I refer to the severe, prolonged and world-wide financial stringency, which, becoming marked in the autumn of 1912 when the Bank of England rate was raised to five per cent, has continued uninterruptedly almost to the present time. This stringency was accompanied, as was to be expected, by a restriction of commercial credits and by a serious limitation of the supply of capital hitherto available in the international money markets for the enterprise of borrowing nations such as Canada. The' result has been a sharp check upon expansion and a trade slackening, which appears to be not confined to any particular country, but to be general throughout the world. Later in my speech I shall deal with this condition at greater length.
I refer to it now because of its bearing upon the financial result of the year.
The fiscal year 1913-14 ended on March 31, but, under the provisions of the law which authorizes an extension of time for the closing of the accounts of the year, it will be some weeks later before the books are closed and all the items brought to account. It is possible, however, to make a fairly close estimate of what the ultimate result will be shown to be.
It is estimated that the revenue for the year 1913-14 will reach $163,000,000. This 
estimated revenue will fall short of the revenue for the previous fiscal year 1912-13 by nearly six million dollars. In connection with this falling-off in revenue caused by the financial stringency and consequent trade slackening to which 1 have alluded, it is instructive to recall the years 1907 and 1908, when somewhat similar conditions were attended by similar results. The money stringency of 1907, while more acute while it lasted, was neither so prolonged nor widespread as the stringency of the past two years. It was followed, as was to be expected, by a trade depression of many months' duration, which exercised a similar influence upon the revenues of the Dominion. To particularize: the revenues of the Dominion, which for the fiscal year 1907 had reached a total of $96,000,000, showed in the following year a diminution of about eleven million dollars, a reduction of over eleven per cent.
The expansion which characterized the revenues of 1912-13 continued, although in diminishing degree of increase, until the end of September last. At the expiration of that period the revenue for the six months from April 1 to iSeptember 30, exceeded that for the corresponding six months of the previous fiscal year by $5,499,065.40. From October to the end of March this increase had been turned into a decrease of $5,039,598.54. In other words, during the six months' period from October 1 to March 31 the decrease in the revenue amounted to $10,538,663.94. I place upon Hansard a tabular statement showing the gross revenues for the corresponding months of the two fiscal years:
.	1912-13.	1913-14April	$11,019,445.77	$12,145,445.78May	
13,636,718.10	14,818,918.331une	
13,181,946.75	14,304,316.25July	
14,619,207.22	15,811,914.26August	
14,445,849.42	14,547,853.20September	. .	.	.	14,475,483.52	15,249,258.36October	
14,758,946.72	14,225,598.16November	. .	.	.	14,297,778.28	13,536,981 32December	..	..	14,142,180.59	12,931,466.77January	
13,442,378.80	11,529,753.30February	..	..	13,135,870.58	9,698,120.91March	
14,372,331.40	11,688,901.97
The decline has been experienced chiefly in the customs revenue. The receipts from other sources of revenue have held fairly well, and the set-back in customs, while substantial, cannot be regarded as serious when the volume of the revenue is taken

into consideration. The causes of the shrinkage axe undoubtedly those which I have indicated, viz: the financial stringency and its concomitants, restriction of credit and contraction of business enterprise.
The revenue for the present year will, then, approximate $163,000,000.
Let us now consider the expenditure. First of all, the ordinary Consolidated Fund expenditure will probably reach $126,500,000, or about $14,500,000 in excess of last year. At the last session of Parliament fairly generous appropriations were made for all divisions of the ordinary services of the country. The main increases will be found in Public Works (expenditure chargeable to income) and in the expenditure on account of post office, railways, agriculture, and militia. With the growth of the country the other services have required additional outlays, with the result that for the current fiscal year as I have stated, there will be an increase in the expenditure on account of Consolidated Fund of about $14,500,000. A revenue of $163,000,000 and an expenditure of $126,500,000 leaves a surplus of revenue over and above the amount required for expenditure upon current account of $36,500,000.
'The surplus for the year, then, will be thirty-six million five hundred thousand dollars as compared with fifty-six million dollars last year.
In connection with this matter of surpluses, it may not be out of place for me to point out that from the year 1902 forward there have been substantial surpluses of revenue over current expenditure, running from $14,000,000 in 1902-3 to $22,000,000 in 1909-10, to $30,000,000 in 1910-11. For the year 1911-12 our surplus was $37,000,000, for 1912-13, as I have stated, $56,000,000, and for last year, 1913-14, the figure which I have just given, $36,500,000. So we have had during the last three years the largest surpluses in the financial history of the Dominion.
In addition to the ordinary or running expenditure, we have further the capital outlays upon our larger public works and national undertakings, such as the Transcontinental railway, the Intercolonial railway, Hudson Bay railway, Quebec bridge and other works involving heavy expenditures, which have always been regarded as being properly the subject of borrowing. It must be obvious to all that the taxpayer of the day is not to be expected to defray each year the entire capital cost of works
such as railways, canals, harbour improvements, dry docks, and other expensive undertakings which once constructed become national assets of great productive value to the Dominion for generations to come. The propriety of constructing these works, partially at least, with funds raised upon the credit of the country does not appear to me to be open to challenge or controversy.
Special Subsidies to Railways.
The House will recall that last year it was considered advisable to render material assistance to railways in order that their work of construction might not be interrupted by reason of the prevailing adverse monetary conditions and the consequent stoppage of funds which previously had been obtainable in the London money market by the railway companies themselves through sales of securities. For this reason and because it was thought proper that, having regard to the cost, magnitude and national importance of the enterprise, further government aid might fairly be granted them, subsidies to a large amount were granted to the companies embraced in the Canadian Northern railway systems. On account of these and other railway subsidies the sum of $19,000,000 has been expended during the fiscal year 1913-14. A loan of $15,000,000 was also authorized to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, secured by the guarantee of the Grand Trunk Railway Company.
My estimate of the expenditure upon capital account, upon railway subsidies and other special accounts, is the sum of $57,000,000. To meet this we have on revenue account a surplus of $36,500,000, leaving a debit balance of $20,500,000, from which we must deduct $1,500,000, representing investments made in sinking funds. The result then will be that in respect of capital and special accounts aggregating, as I have stated, the sum of $57,000,000, the net debt of Canada will be increased by the sum of $19,000,000. Putting the matter another way, our revenues will have been found sufficient to meet all current and capital expenditures including railways, canals, harbour and public buildings expenditure, and we have been obliged to increase the debt only by reason of the unusual and abnormal expenditures upon railway subsidies. I believe I am fully justified in making the statement that in the trying financial conditions which pre-
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vailed last year the action of the Government in coining to the assistance of the railways alone rendered the continuation of their enterprises possible, at all events for the year in question. The consequences of the interruption of the work of construction would, I need scarcely say, have been of the most serious character to the Dominion as a whole.
Under all the circumstances of the year, an increase in the net debt in the sum of $19,000,000 must be regarded as eminently satisfactory, especially when it is borne in mind that in the fiscal year 1908-09, following a much less trying period of financial stringency in 1907-08, the net- debt of the Dominion was increased by no less a sum than $46,000,000. It is also to be noted that, nothwithstanding this increase, the net debt of Canada when the books for 1913-14 are closed will be less by several million dollars in amount than it was in 1911 when the present Government assumed office. The explanation of this lies in the fact that during the year 1912-13, when the revenues amounting to upwards of $168,000,000 were abnormal, and due in considerable measure to commercial inflation, the Government was able to achieve a reduction in the net debt which more than offsets the increase rendered necessary by the abnormal conditions of the year just closed.
Maturities and Borrowings, 1913-14.
In my Budget of last year I made mention of the fact that only two loans remained to be provided for until the year 1930. One of these for £1,700,000, being portion of a 4 per cent loan guaranteed by the Imperial Government and issued in 1878, matured on October 1 last, and was duly paid off, as was also a small currency loan originally issued in Canada in 1883 at 4 per cent, but subsequently extended at the rate of 34 per cent and amounting to $1,446,565. The other loan to which I referred was originally issued for £6,000,000, of which £5,487,080 is now outstanding, the difference representing a cancelled sinking fund investment. This loan was issued in the form of bonds and is redeemable on, July 1, 1919, with the option to the Government to redeem the whole or any part by drawings at par on or after July 1, 1914, on giving three months' notice. With the money market in its present condition, and our boro wings in consequence being upon a 4 per cent basis, it is not our intention to redeem this loan on July 1 next. Unless 
indeed there is a marked change in monetary conditions in the early future it is probable that this loan will run its full length to July 1, 1919. So much for our maturities, as to which the situation must be regarded as entirely satisfactory, there being no funded loans becoming payable for five years to come.
I have stated that notwithstanding that our estimates last year were exceptionally large, we have paid our way out of revenue so far as current and capital outlay are concerned. I have also stated that the net debt of the Dominion would be increased by practically the amount of our special outlays upon subsidies and other special accounts.
But while this is the case, our borrowings for the year were considerably greater than the amount by which the net debt of the Dominion has been increased. This was occasioned by the additional large expenditure which we were obliged to make upon investments which constitute a setoff to the increase in the gross debt which they render necessary. Let me recapitulate the special outlays and investments for which it was necessary to borrow during the past fiscal year:
Railway subsidies and other charges, $20,000,000; investment in Grand Trunk Pacific bonds, guaranteed by the Dominion, $12, 872,333.27; Grand Trunk Pacific loan, $8,500,000; advances to Montreal and Quebec Harbour Commissioners, $5,312,000; total, say $46,684,333.27. Add loans matured $9,719,898; total $56,404,231.27.
In June, July and August last the London money market was most unfavourable for the issue of new permanent loans. The Balkan war, greatly disturbing in itself to all the money centres of the world and much more so by its menace to the peace of Europe, was still being waged, with the intermission of a futile truce, with the most relentless ferocity on the part of the combatants. While it held the stage there could be no settled financial conditions and no promise of amelioration of the worldwide stringency. In further aggravation, anarchy in Mexico became an additional and potent factor to trouble the exchanges and bourses of Great Britain and the continent. Many important issues of governments, states, provinces and municipalities, which had been obliged, owing to the adverse conditions, to resort to temporary borrowings to be met by funding operations, were overhanging the market awaiting a favourable opportunity for emission. In these circumstances, the Bank of England rate being 5

per cent, it was not 'Considered expedient, [DOT]during the months mentioned, to attempt to make a permanent issue, and resort was had to treasury bills, of whidh £1,000,000 were [DOT]discounted on August 25, 1913, due February 16, 1914, at the rate of 4 15/16 per cent per annum.
In September further treasury bills were issued to the amount of £1,000,000 maturing March 16, half at 4J per cent and the remainder at 4f. On November 19, £1,700,000 of bills were discounted at 4§. These fall due on November 19, 1914. In all £3,700,000 [DOT]of treasury bills were discounted during the year.
To meet the maturities I have previously referred to, amounting to about ten million dollars, and to provide additional funds for the special outlays of the Dominion, £3,000,-*000 of 4 per cent stock redeemable October 1, 1960, with the option of the Government to redeem the whole or any portion thereof in 1940 on giving three months' notice, was issued on September 25 at the price of 99 and on December 3 a further amount of £4,000,000 similar stock was issued at 97, making a total of £7,000,000 of permanent stock issued before the close of the calendar year 1913. Of the last mentioned loan £1,000,000 was used to redeem treasury bills due February 16, 1914.
To meet £1,000,000 treasury bills maturing March 16, to provide for the balance of the Grand Trunk Pacific loan amounting to $7,500,000 and to complete the purchases of Grand Trunk Pacific bonds guaranteed by the Government of Canada to the amount of about $10,000,000, it became necessary to issue a further loan of £5,000,000, of the same character as previous loans, which we were able to accomplish in the recent improved condition of the market at 99, two points in advance of the previous issue.
The purchase of Grand Trunk Pacific bonds has not only enabled the Dominion to make a substantial saving upon the amount it would otherwise have been obliged to pay in implementing to par the price which would be realized for these securities if sold as they would have been from time to time, but also has served to protect the credit of the country from the consequence of the issue of such low interest-bearing debentures upon the London market. There is the further fact that so far as the public are concerned our outstanding guarantees are less than they would have been by the amount of our purchases. From the London financial community I have heard nothing but commendation of the aetion of the Government 155
in this regard. It should therefore be borne in mind in connection with our borrowing that no less a sum than $24,005,806 has been required so far to take up these bonds which are, of course, an asset in the treasury of the Dominion.
I think I may fairly set forth to the credit of the Government the fact that notwithstanding our heavy borrowings the net debt of Canada is less than it was when we took office and that guarantees of securities have been reduced so far as the outside world is concerned by over $24,000,000.
The House has long known that the Dominion, in common with all other Dominions of the empire, has been obliged to go upon a four per cent basis in the sale of its securities. The causes for the increase in the price that has to be paid for money have been frequently discussed and it is not necessary that I should go over the ground again. So far as I can see it will be some considerable time before there is likely to be even the prospect of a return to the lesser rates. However, no one's opinion upon a question such as this is of much value because rates of interest are dependent upon causes and conditions infinitely varied, complex and fortuitous, and not at all susceptible of forecast.
The rates of interest which we were obliged to pay on treasury bills and the permanent issues we have made were such as the stringent conditions of the year demanded. I am glad to be able to say that they were on the whole relatively low and that the Dominion still retains the premier place among the self-governing dominions so far as the price of her securities in the London market is concerned.
There has been a good deal of comment of a critical and sometimes of an adverse character upon the fact that the public has subscribed for only a small percentage of Dominion loans offered upon the London money market. The House is no doubt familiar with the mode of raising money by loan in that financial centre. The first step is to get our loan underwritten through our fiscal agent in London, and when it is underwritten it is a success so far as we are concerned, because our
4 p.m. money is certain. The only object of underwriting and paying a commission to the underwriters is to ensure that if the public do not respond when the issue is made the underwriters will, to the extent that the public do not respond, take up the instalments as they mature. As I have said, when the loan is
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underwritten the money is secured. There has grown up in London of recent years a habit on the part of the public, particularly in connection with large government loans, of waiting until the lists are closed in the hope that the underwriters, being saddled with a large proportion of the loan, will be willing to sell at a small discount. For the information of the House and as illustrating that custom, to which 1 have referred as growing up in connection with government loans, I desire to place upon ' Hansard ' the record of the past two years as to Dominion of Canada issues and issues made by other dominions of the empire.
Dominion of Canada loans:
£5,000,000, Feb., 1912, underwriters*got 65 p.c.
£3,000,000, Oct., 1913 £4,000,000, Dec., 1913,
50 "
underwriters got 82 p.c.
£5,000,000, Feb., 1914	" 78
West Australia:	
£1,000,000, Feb., 1912	" 74
£1,000,000, Dec., 1912	" 44
£2,000,000, Apr., 1913	" 54
£1,000,000, Nov., 1913	" 70
Queensland:	
£2,000,000, July, 1.912	" 89
£2,000,000, Jan., 1913	" 80
New Zealand:	
£4,500,000, June, 1912	" 85
£3,500,000, Oct., 1913 , '	" 92
New South Wales:	
£1,500,000, Oct., 1912 '	' 52
£3,000,000, Mar., 1913 '	' 84
£3,000,000, Jan., 1914 '	[DOT] 90
Government of India:	
£3,000,000, Apr., 1912 '	[DOT] 87
Union o£ South Africa:	
£4,000,000, July, 1912 '	' 94
Tasmania:	
£1,300,000, Jan., 1913 '	' 85
Government of Victoria:	
£3,000,000, June, 1913 '	' 40
£2,000,000, Sept., 1913 '	' 53
On the other hand, I should point out that there were several issues made in January of this calendar year which were almost immediately over-subscribed, there being at that time a certain amount of speculation in connection with these gilt-edged securities due to the loosening up of money and the expectation that monetary conditions would be materially easier in the comparatively near future. After a sudden outbreak of speculative activity m gilt-edged securities, which resulted in a number of issues being over-subscribed in a day or two, the market has resumed its accustomed condition, and we have found the underwriters taking a large percentage of loans recently issued to the public.
The Debt of Canada.
In connection with the subject of our loans, a word as to the debt of Canada

may not be out of place, especially as our borrowings have been made the subject of criticism for the most part entirely uninformed in certain of the British and Canadian press.
The Public 'Accounts for 1913 show the following figures relating to the debt of Canada:
Total
Debt.
1911..	$474,941,487
1912..	508,338,591
1913..	483,232,555
Total	Net
Assets.	DebtllSt,899,435 $340,042,052 168,419,131	339,919,460
168,930,929	314,301,625
The year 1911-12 showed, therefore, a reduction in the net debt of $122,591.32, and last year a reduction of $25,617,835.03. This year we shall show an increase of $19,000,000, but notwithstanding this, the net debt of the Dominion will be over six
million less than it was two years ago. Since Confederation there are shown in the Public Accounts only eight reductions in the net debt of Canada, of which two belong to the present regime.
Of the total debt the amount of the funded debt payable in London on March 31 of last year was $258,679,819. This amount has since been increased by about fifty-eight million dollars for the purposes I have mentioned. The balance of the total debt is represented by small funded currency debts payable in Canada amounting to $2,190,767; Dominion notes to the amount of $112,101,885 for which, save as to the amount of $22,500,000, the Dominion holds dollar for dollar in gold; savings banks deposits of $57,140,483 for which ten per cent in gold is held; provincial notes $39,220; compensation to seigniors, $38,091; trust funds, $15,167,803; province accounts, $11,920,481, and miscellaneous accounts, $2o,954,002. The assets of the Dominon which are deducted from the gross to ascertain the net debt, were at the end of last fiscal year as follows:
Sinking funds	$ 13,737,567
Investments	 43,885,324
Province accounts		2,296,327
Miscellaneous accounts .. 109,011,709
In the last named account is included specie amounting to $98,725,822.
Financial Conditions.
Looking back upon the year 1913, it is apparent that the whole world passed through one of those severe financial crises with which the student of economics is familiar as regularly recurring phenomena in the financial world. The Balkan war, while immediately responsible for the critical conditions which developed, probably disclosed rather than caused the situ-

ation. World-wide expansion in trade, unprecedented demand from all parts of the world upon the loanable capital in the international financial centres, the constantly increasing expenditures upon militarism and armaments, the exhausting wars of the past few years, personal and public extravagance, speculation and price inflation, all co-operated to bring about the financial conditions under review. The banking community, always first to sense approaching money-scarcity, took precautions well in advance, curtailing credits and limiting the commitments of their customers. Liquidation was forced throughout the world, with the result that at length, about the end of last year, the money supply was more nearly equalized to demand. Since the turn of the year the Bank of England rate has fallen to three per cent, and the outlook for easier money conditions appears much more favourable than at any time during the past two years.
Our own financial institutions stood the strain well. As evidencing their ability to cope with unusual emergency, I need only refer to the ease and celerity with which the financing of the western harvest was accomplished under the arduous monetary conditions of last fall. So far as the financial stringency is concerned, we may consider that the worst is over. From this time forward until the culmination of the next economic cycle, we are, on the experience of the past, justified in looking for much more normal monetary conditions. For the immediate future it must not be forgotten that vast refunding operations must still be carried out in London, Paris, and other centres, making heavy demands upon the money supply available. During the past year there was much criticism of Canadian borrowing. Some of this criticism was just, most of it unjust, but perhaps not blame-worthy under the trying conditions which beset the London market. The criticism which I describe as unjust regarded not at all the question of the security offered nor the price at which the company, municipality, province or Dominion offered its securities, but only the fact that money was being sought. On the other hand, it was realized by all sensible financial men and journals that a borrowing country such as Canada, in the midst of a vast constructive epoch in her history, could not suddenly discontinue her borrowings without the most serious risk of loss to British and other investors who have so freely furnished the capital for railway and 155J
industrial undertakings which must be finished to be productive. On the whole, Canada received generous treatment at the hands of British capital last year. More money was borrowed than in any previous year, but it is probable that a very substantial part of the total was devoted to the liquidation of floating indebtedness or Treasury bills negotiated at an earlier date.
When we consider, apart altogether from its physical resources and its economic strength as a community, the great public works owned and paid for by the Dominion -its canals, railways, including the Intercolonial and the now almost completed National Transcontinental-it can be affirmed with certainty that the national debt of Canada has been kept within very-moderate bounds indeed.
Trade.
The trade of Canada, as measured by the aggregate of the total imports and total exports, reached in 1913 the record figure of over one thousand million dollars. in the Budget of last year I called attention to the fact that during the last three years the total imports had increased at a very much greater ratio than the exports, ancf that the marked difference between the amount of the imports and the amount of the exports in 1913 had evoked criticism on the part of some who put forward the view that we might expect to be drained of our gold if the condition continued. 1 pointed out at the time that Canada was a large borrower of capital required for the construction of our transcontinental railways, of great public works, for industrial and commercial enterprise, and for the municipal services of our rapidly growing communities. Expenditure of this kind is of a capital nature, and money borrowed for the purpose of making it is loaned* not upon terms of immediate repayment* but for investment. As a great part of our imports represented our borrowings, and found their way into works and undertakings of the character mentioned, it is obvious that the situation was very different from what it would have been had all our imports been for immediate consumption, in which case the adverse balance of trade would have been fraught with serious consequences, if indeed it would have been possible for it to exist at all. The question then was whether Canada would be in a position to pay with heT exports not for all her imports, but such only as did not represent capital bor-
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rowed abroad for productive undertakings and interest upon her borrowings, pa§t and present. Keeping this distinction in view, and the further fact of the vast amount of capital and effects reaching the Dominion by immigration, it became apparent that the adverse balance of trade gave rise to no cause for alarm. But, while this was so, it is a gratifying feature of the trade of 1913-14 that the exports have increased in a marked ratio, and that the excess of imports over exports, which characterized the previous year, has been materially cut
down. While in 1912G3 the percentage of the value of imports to the aggregate trade was nearly '84 per cent up to the end of February, 1913, the percentage of imports to the aggregate trade for the eleven months ended February 28 last was over 57* per cent, or about the same proportion as in the year 1908. The increase in exports, as shown in the following table, while chiefly in agricultural products, will be found to apply to the products of mines, fisheries, forests, animals and their products and manufactures.
Value of Goods Exerted (by classes) from the Dominion-Merchandise only (Canadian Produce).
Fiscal Year.	The Mine.	The Fisheries.	The Forest.	Animals and their Produce. *s	$	9	91908	39,177,133 37,257,699 40,087,017 42,787,561 41,324,516 57,442,546 52,469,690	13,867,368 13,319,604 15,663,162 15,675,544 16,704,678 16,336,721 19,153,286	44,170,470 39,667,387 47,517,033 15,439,057 40,892,674 43,255,060 40,097,151	55,101,2601909	1910	
1911	53,926,515 52,244,174 48,210,654 44,784,379 50,147,0591912	1913	11 months ended Feb. 28, 1914	Fiscal Year.	Agricultural Products.	Manufac- tures.	Miscellan- eous.	Total.$	$	$	$1908	66,069,939 71,997,207 90,433,747 82,601,284 107,143,375 150,145,661 191,707,483	28,507,124	246,960,968 242,603,584 279,247,551 274,316,553 290,223,857 355,754,386 404,887,4481909	1910	31,494,916 35,283,118 35,836,284 13,692,708 51,204,162	1911	
1912	
1913	285,815 111,676	11 months ended Feb. 28,1914	108,617	
Notwithstanding the fact that during the current fiscal year Canada has been experiencing with the rest of the world a severe strain upon commercial credits, owing to the financial stringency to which I have previously adverted, I am pleased to be able to announce that the trade statistics _for the year will exceed those of last year, when they reached the Tecord
figure of over one billion dollars. For the eleven months ended 28th February, 1914, the total imports amounted to $597,420,545, and the total exports to $440,631,104, or a total of $1,038,051,649. With the figures for March added, the record of last year will be substantially exceeded. I place upon 'Hansard* in tabular form the comparative figures since 1908:
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Total Trade of Canada with all countries (including coin and bullion).
Fiscal Year.	Total imports.	Total exports Canadian and foreign produce.	Aggregate trade.	Percentage of value of imports with aggregate trade.$ 370,786.525	$ 280,006,606	$ 650,793,131	% 56-97309,756,608	261,512,159	571,268.767	54'22391,852,692	301,358,529	693,211,221	56'52472,247,540	297,196,365	769,443,905 874,637,794	01-37559,320,544	315,317,250	63'94692,032,392	393,232,057	1,085,264,449	63'76597,420,545	440,631,104	1,038,051,649	57'55
It will be of interest to the House if I show the percentage of -value of imports with aggregate trade, because the question of balance of trade has been so much discussed in Canada and Great Britain. In 1908 the percentage of value of imports with aggregate trade was 56.97 per cent; in 1909, 54.32 per cent; in 1910, 56.52 per cent; in 1911, 61.37 per cent; in 1912, 63.94 per cent; and I have shown that this year the percentage has fallen to 57 per cent, which was about the rate in 1908.
I also present for the information of the House a table showing the aggregate of our imports and exports from and to the United Kingdom and the United States:
Trade with United Kingdom-Merchandise only.
Fiscal Year.	Imports for Consumption from the United States.	Exports to the United States, Canadian and Foreign Produce.	Aggregate Trade.1908.	$ 204,648,885 170,056,178 217,502,415	$ 90,920,138	S 301,569,0231909	
1910	91,022,387 110,614,327	261,078,565 328,116,7421911	274,814,858	112,20S,676	387,053,5341912	330,428,502	112,950,295	443,384,7971913	435,783,343	150,961,675	586,745,01811 mos. ended Feb. 28, 1914	361,948,599	161,203,378	523,151,977
Indicating that there will be a falling off in the imports to Canada from the United Kingdom.
There has been a very large increase of exports to the United Kingdom from Canada during the past fiscal year.
Now, I have some figures showing the trade between Canada and the United States of America. I may say for the
information of the House that Canada is the second customer of the United States to-day. The largest part of the export trade of the United States is with Great Britain and the second is with Canada. On the other hand, Canada is fifth in her sales to the United States, coming, I believe, even after Cuba as far as the figures of the United States disclose. The following table shows the imports from and exports to the United States:
Trade with United States-Merchandise only.
Fiscal Year.	Imports for Consumption from the United Kingdom.	Exports to the United Kingdom Canadian and Foreign Produce.	Aggregate Trade.1908	$ 94,417,314	$ 134,477,124	S 228,894,4381909	70,682,101	133,745,123	201,427,224 244,966.9151910	
.	95,336,427	149,030,488	1911	109,934,665	136,962,971	246,897,6361912	116,906,212	151,833,376	268,739,5911913	138,652,198 120,819,158	177,982,002	316,634,20011 mos. ended Feb. 28, 1914	214,632,520	335,451,678
There was a falling off in our imports from the United States in the past year, as there was in our imports from Great Britain. On the other hand, as in the case of Great Britain, our exports to the United States substantially increased. I think the increase is due, in large measure, to the Underwood tariff, which has placed live stock, dairy and certain other farm products, fish, manufactures of lumber, and other natural and manufactured products of Canada, upon the free list.
An hon. MEMBER:: What is the aggregate trade with .the United States?


William Thomas White: The aggregate trade with
the United States in the year 1912 was $443,384,797, in 1913 it was $586,745,018, and for the eleven months ended February 28, 1914, it was $523,151,977.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Will the minister give the increased exports to Great Britain this year over last year?


William Thomas White: In 1913 the exports to Great Britain were $177,982,002, and, for the eleven months ended February 28, 1914, our exports were $214,632,520. I am of the view that a large contributing cause to the result was the export of our wheat. It will be recalled by the House that the western harvest was -exceptionally early last year and, as I have *stated before, it was moved to market with great celerity and despatch.
Immigration.
I turn now to the statistics of our immigration. It is gratifying to know not only that the stream of new settlers continues to flow into the Dominion, but that there is also apparent from year to year a marked improvement in the class arriving due to restrictive regulations. The arrivals for the past five fiscal years and eleven months of the present fiscal year have been as follows:
Fiscal Year.
1908-	09	
1909-	10	
1910-	11	
1911-	12	
1912-	13 .... 4913-14 (11 mos.)
Totals.
52,901
59,790
123,013
138,121
150,542
136,699
34,175
45,206
66,620
82,406
112,881
128,933
59,832
103,798
121,451
133,710
139,009
97,406
146,908
208,794
311,084
354,237
402,432
363,038
For the whole fiscal year 1913-14 the total immigration will likely reach 390,000; that Is four times the population of our smallest province or enough persons if 'settled in a community to make thirteen constituencies according to the present unit of representation.
For the calendar year 1913 the total immigration to Canada was 418,909, divided into 156,984 from the British Isles, 115,791 from the United States and 146,174 from other countries. According to official estimate the value of effects together with the capital brought in by these immigrants would
IMr. W. T. White.]
exceed the sum of $100,000,000. This is, however', the least important part of their contribution, the most valuable as a national asset being the energy, intelligence and character which they bring to the upbuilding of the nation.
Fiscal Year 1914-15.
I now approach consideration of the fiscal year which commenced on April 1. Preliminary to such consideration it may not be out of place to make some brief observations as to prevailing business conditions in Canada and elsewhere. There is no doubt that the severe and prolonged financial stringency through which the business world has passed and from which it is only now emerging marked the culmination of one of those so-called trade cycles well known to economists. The phenomena of these cycles are well known. First a surplus of loanable capital attended with easy money conditions and low interest rates, next commercial activity promoted and sustained by abundant supplies of such capital resulting in profitable trade and rapid extension of enterprise, next, in consequence of such rapid extension, an undue proportion of the money supply of the world finding its way into fixed capital, then shortage of liquid resources among financial institutions, followed, as a matter of necessity in order to rectify conditions, by advancing rate of interest with curtailment of credit and consequent restriction of trade. When this last condition is reached and has prevailed for such time as is necessary to permit of the accumulation of loanable capital in sufficient surplus to bring about easy interest Tates another cycle, such as I have described, after a more or less prolonged commercial pause during which confidence is being gradually regained, is entered upon at its beginning. Viewing world-wide conditions during the past few years it is apparent that such a period has been passed through. We have seen normal money conditions, good times throughout the world, the expansion of enterprise, vast increase in capital expenditure upon railway and other construction in Asia, India, Egypt, and in horth and South America. Last year there was experienced a shortage of capital in all the financial centres with constantly increasing interest rates until, after a period of prolonged and severe liquidation and the elimination of vast amounts of inflated values, something like normal money conditions again prevail. The world is now in a period of general but it is to be hoped

temporary trade slackening. Without such slackening the financial stringency must have continued. The trade slackening alone could bring it to its appointed end.
The conditions I have referred to are world-wide. We are particularly interested in those of Canada. Our production has shown a most gratifying increase in all the great departments of our national activity. As I have previously shown, in foreign trade this has been our greatest year. What is the present outlook? Bankers and business men unite in the opinion that while it is a time for prudence and caution it is also a time for confidence and courage. The strength of Canada lies in her vast natural resources. That is the rock upon which our prosperity is soundly based and founded. Any depression, generally speaking, can be but temporary in character until such time as normal money conditions, joined with business confidence, again restores the wonted activity of the nation. While this is so we must not close our eyes to the fact that we have been passing through a period of considerable inflation. Our railway policy has resulted in the construction of two vast new systems within the past dozen years. Construction upon the main lines of these systems is nearing completion. It must, however be borne in mind that railways are never completed, are always building and rebuilding, always extending their branches and feeders. I do not therefore look for any abrupt cessation in connection with our railway construction. There has been in real estate throughout Canada a long-expected set-back in values of speculative suburban properties. On the other hand the values of farm 'and central business and residential city properties are generally speaking not only being maintained but will undoubtedly with the growth of the Dominion tend to appreciation. On the whole the readjustment which is going on in real estate conditions throughout Canada is recognized as inevitable and salutary. Commercial prospects for the immediate future seem to me to be encouraging. Conditions will, I think, gradually improve with returning confidence and easier money. By reason of the autumn conditions of last year which permitted soil preparation on an unusual scale in all parts of the Dominion, the outlook for agricultural production this year is most favourable and we may look forward to increased production in those other great departments, our fisheries, forests and mines.
Dealing now with tile Budget aspects of the year, tire main estimates for the fiscal year 1914-15 have been before the House since January. For the outlays ou account of Consolidated Fund there is a total appropriation of $146,786,126, and for capital $43,949,050. There will be Supplementary Estimates presented later during the present session, but it is not expected that they will be of large amount. In view of decreasing revenues, which were to be apprehended in a year such as this on the analogy of 1908, which followed the financial stringency of 1907, it has been considered advisable that the Estimates should be kept within as reasonable bounds as possible, having regard to the needed requirements of the country as to public services and national undertakings in progress or necessary to be begun forthwith.
In considering the matter of Estimates as compared with revenue it must be kept in mind that appropriations do not always mean expenditure, partial or complete, and that on the experience of the past it may be confidently predicted that a considerable portion will he unexpended and lapse.
The revenue for the present fiscal year will reach about $163,000,000. The amount of revenue we shall receive during the coming year will depend very much upon the trend of business throughout Canada. We have experienced a considerable falling off during the past few months hut it is my expectation that these declines will with the coming of spring be relatively smaller and my hope that next fall we may regain the losses, if any, of the earlier part of the year. In any event I think I may say with confidence that the revenues of the coming year will provide fully for Consolidated Fund expenditure and in large measure for all capital and special outlays.
Tariff.
I now proceed to the consideration of certain matters relating to the tariff. In my Budget of last year I enunciated the general principle that alterations in the schedules of the tariff should be sparingly made if at all until the period has arrived for a general revision. I said also that to give this principle rigid and inflexible application would lead to occasional public detriment and inconvenience. I further stated that having regard to the then prevailing conditions of the Dominion and the fact that there is always'a delicate adaptation of business to th* Tat-es of the tariff

has from time to time been brought to the attention of the Government, and it has been suggested that further aid or additional protection should be granted to it by a continuance of bounties or an increase in the tariff upon its products. Before dealing with the subject further I might be permitted to make some general observations as to the industry itself and the matter of bounties and duties . upon iron and steel products. Great efforts have been made in the past by bounties and protective duties to develop and promote this industry. From 1896 to 1910 alone sums aggregating at least fifteen million dollars were paid out 'by way of bounties upon the production of pig-iron, steel billets and other steel- manufactures. In 1910 the legislation providing for bounties came to an end and was not renewed by the late Government, who were evidently of the view that the iron and steel enterprises at Sydney and elsewhere, which had been called into being or had been promoted by such liberal outpouring of public moneys, should with the protection afforded by the tariff be able to continue and prosper without further direct aid from' the public treasury. Since the date in question the bounties have not been renewed although the matter on more than one occasion has been brought to the attention of the Government. There is no doubt that among a large portion of the public there is a decided objection to the principle of bounties. My own view is that bounties are justifiable to call into being new industries where capital which is always timid as to experimental ventures requires special inducement to enter upon their development, but after such enterprises have been called into being and firmly established ;it is difficult to justify further aid of a direct character.
Speaking generally with regard to the iron and steel schedule of the tariff, it is my view and I believe it has been the view of most *at least of my predecessors in office that the tariff upon pig-iron and billet steel, which are the raw materials to such a wide variety -of industries, should be of moderate amount only. To raise the existing duties on these products "would necessitate an increase of duty upon nearly all the products into which they enter as material. These would embrace all agricultural implements, all foundry and machine manufacturers' products, stoves and a multitude of other articles in general use whose price would be raised to the consumer. The difficulties in the way of increasing the duties upon pig-iron and [DOT]billet steel will be apparent to all and re-*quires no further demonstration. So far as the more finished articles pf production

are concerned, with the exception of wire rods, about which I shall speak later, the range of protection extends from 25 per cent to 35 per cent, and it must be borne in mind that the larger plants use the whole or the greater part of their pig-iron and billet steel in the production of these more finished articles. During the past two years, 1912 and 1913, the steel companies, speaking generally, enjoyed a prosperous trade. The enormous amount of construction and especially railway construction going on throughout Canada afforded a wide market for their products of all varieties. Particularly was there activity in steel rail production at good prices, two of the larger plants devotin'' almost their entire efforts to this line of manufacture. Following the financial stringency of last year there has come somewhat of a cheek, but as railroad building and rebuilding must always continue the outlook for the coming year and for the future in this regard must still be considered as good. It is a fact, however, that conditions have changed to this extent that the demand for steel rails is not likely to be as great in the near future as in the recent past, and the steel plants must now consider a variation in output to meet the changing conditions.
Now, I have certain proposals to make with reference to the items in the iron and steel schedules of the tariff. Item 379 of the tariff provides that rolled iron or steel beams, channels, angles and other rolled shapes weighing not less than thirty-five pounds per lineal yard have a tariff duty of $2 British preferential, $2.75 intermediate and $3 general, per ton. The House will observe that these rates are confined to what are called merchant mill products, weighing not less than 35 lb. per lineal yard. By item 377, in which the same products are included, n.o.p., the tariff is $4.25 preferential, $6 intermediate, and $7 general. That is to say, upon the smaller merchant mill products up to 35 lb. per lineal yard, the duty is $4.25 British preferential, $6 intermediate and $7 general, whereas upon the heavier products weighing over 35 lb. per lineal yard, the tariff rate is $2 British preferential, $2.75 intermediate and $3 general. That distinction was made at the time the present tariff was enacted, because the larger merchant mill products were not manufactured in Canada. They are not made in Canada in large tonnage to-day, but representation has been made to the Government by the Algoma Steel Company and by other com-

panies that if the tariff rates which now prevail in respect of the less heavy products be extended to the heavy structural merchant mill products, they will be able to obtain capital for the erection of larger merchant mills capable of producing products of a weight of 120 lb. per lineal yard. They do not ask that a rate of that bind should become immediately effectual, they ask that authority be taken by the Governor in Council to put into effect and operation those higher rates as soon as the Governor in Council is satisfied that the heavier merchant mill products of 120 lb. per lineal yard can be manufactured in Canada. The House will remember that that course was followed in connection with the tariff on steel rails; it was tentatively put on at the rate of $7 a ton until the Government was satisfied that steel rails could be manufactured in substantial quantities in Canada. We propose, therefore, to take authority to bring the tariff in respect of merchant mill products up to 120 lb. per lineal yard at the rate that I have mentioned into effect when the Government is satisfied that those products .can be manufactured here in substantial quantities.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: What are the rates?


William Thomas White: The rates will be those which now prevail in respect of lighter products, namely, $4 25, $6 and $7 per ton.
The Government has been requested upon many occasions during the past two years to impose a duty upon wire rods. Wire rods, which are the raw material for the production of wire nails, drawn wire and other products, are at present on the free list. There are two mills in Canada to-day manufacturing wire rods, one at Sydney, and one at Hamilton. The Dominion Iron and Steel Company has invested about $1,000,000 in a wire rod mill, which, I believe, is not fully devoted to wire rod production. The Steel Company of Canada has a wire rod mill at Hamilton which has cost them, I believe, in the neighbourhood of $750,000. The capacity of the Sydney mill-that is to say, the mill of the Dominion Iron and Steel Company-is 100,000 tons a year, and the capacity of the Hamilton mill-that is, the mill of the Steel Company of Canada-is 75,000 tons a year. Both these mills are at the present time, and have been for some time past, only in partial operation; indeed, the mill of the Dominion Iron and Steel Company has, I believe, always been in only
partial operation. The-importations of wire rods for the year 1913 were 92,000 tons. The demand in Canada is from 150,000 to 200,000 tons. Wire rods are imported chiefly from the United States and Germany. The price in Pittsburg to-day is about $25 per long ton. As the House is aware, depressed conditions exist to-day in the iron and steel industry of the United States, and this accounts, no doubt, for the comparatively low price at which wire rods are selling in Pittsburg. The price of wire rods at Pittsburg, plus freight to, let us say, Hamilton, is less than the average factory cost of production in Canada. As I have stated to the House, I have been approached on many occasions during the past year by the two large steel companies, who have made representations that they are ready to supply wire rods to meet the entire demand of the people of the Dominion of Canada, and that their mills are only in partial operation 'because of the very large tonnage which is being imported at prices which, as I have 'said, are lower than the average cost of production in Canada. They have asked the Government for a moderate degree of protection, setting forth that 5 p.m. theirs is an important industry; that their product is on the free list and that they are entitled, on a fiscal policy of reasonable protection to Canadian industries, to such a tariff as will enable them to compete in fair terms for the market of Canada with the steel manufacturers of the United States, Germany and other countries. It is only fair to the House that I Should say that this request upon the part of the large steel companies, the Dominion Iron and Steel Company and the Steel Company of Canada, has been opposed by the nail makers other than those two companies.
I should explain to the House that these two companies of which I have spoken manufacture not only wire rods but also wire nails, which are a product of wire rods. The wire nail makers, whom I shall call in the course of my remarks the smaller nail makers, because their combined output is much less than the combined output of the two large companies, urged that the two steel companies which [DOT]manufacture wire rods and also nails are in competition with ^hem in respect of their nail product. The smaller nail makers to whom I have referred have factories in Montreal, Toronto, Collingwood, Hamilton, Owen Sound, Winnipeg, Vancouver, St. John and other places. They expressed the fear, in connection with the

application of the two large companies for a productive tariff on wire rods, that the price of their raw material might be enhanced to them, and that the larger, companies, under such circumstances, might be able to undersell them in their finished product, that is wire nails. I may say that the two large steel companies are the largest producers of nails in Canada. The capacity of Canadian production is 1,500,* 000 kegs per annum. The Dominion Iron and Steel Company and its allied company, the Pender Company of St. John, produce 17 per cent of that output, and the Steel Company of Canada about 52 per cent, leaving about 30 per cent as the annual production of the smaller nail makers of Canada, the other firms to which I have alluded. I have said that the Dominion Iron and Steel Company and the Steel Company of Canada have urged that they are entitled to a moderate degree of protection upon their finished product, wire rods. At this stage it is proper for me to say that the tariff upon wire nails is 60 cents per keg, an average duty of about 30 per. cent; so that the nail manufacturers are protected by a duty averaging about 30 per cent-, whereas wire rods are upon the free list and enjoy no protection whatever. The two large companies, 'the Dominion Iron and Steel Company and the Steel Company of Canada, allege that it is their object to sell rods and build up their Canadian business, and that the granting of a duty would not injure any interest in Canada and by no means injure those engaged in nail making. The Government have given full consideration to the opposing views. We have reached the conclusion that the apprehension on the part of the nail making firms who have opposed the granting of a duty is not well founded. We believe it is in the interest of the nail making industry as well as the wire Tod industry that a duty should be imposed. I do not believe for a moment that any attempt will be made to take any unfair advantage of the smaller nail manufacturers, but if any unfair advantage should be taken or any oppressive course of conduct exercised towardis the purchasers of wire rods, the Government have, of course, the Tight and the power under tffe Customs Act, at any time they think it expedient, to lower the duty upon wire rods. We believe that it is most desirable that the important industry of wire rod manufacturing should be firmly established in 
the Dominion of Canada. This can only be done by a protective tariff on wire rods. To refuse the duty asked for would be to determine that from this time forward Canada should be dependent for wire rods upon foreign manufacturers. This alternative the Government does not feel that it should assume the responsibility for accepting. I have to propose, then, a duty of $2.25 British preference; $3.50 intermediate tariff and $3.50 general tariff, upon wire rods I may add that in connection with this imposition of duty no adjustment will be required; there will be no increase of duty on wire or on nails which are the product of wire rods.
There is another matter to which I wish to draw the attention of the House. At present wire rods are on the free list. Wire rods enter into the production of wire used in wire fencing. Wire fencing is used by the farmers of Canada. I propose to recommend to the House that a drawback shall be granted in respect of the duties which I shall propose upon wire lods used in the manufacture of wire of 9, 12 and 13 gauges for wire fencing.
I desire to call the attention of the House to -section 288 of the Customs Act. That section relates to drawbacks of duty paid on goods exported. The House is no do.ubt aware that if a Canadian manufacturer exports a product from Canada he is entitled to a drawback in respect of duty paid upon the imported raw material entering into the manufacture of such exported product. Regulations have been established by Order in Council under authority of section 288 of the Customs Act to which I have referred. But a curious anomaly exists in connection with the administration of the drawback regulations, which has been a very serious detriment to the iron industry of Canada. The amendment which I have to propose has as its object the enabling of a drawback to be paid on pig-iron used in articles exported, but not exceeding the quantity imported and entered for duty. The explanation of the necessity for the amendment is as follows:
When manufacturing the same article for export and for home consumption it is found impracticable to keep the melts of foreign and domestic iron separate, so that only foreign pig iron will be used in the article exported and domestic pig iron in the like article for home consumption; so that a mixture of pig iron occurs in the course of the manufacture of otheT articles

made from pig iron. The proposed amendment is designed to enable drawback to be paid to the extent of the weight of pig iron used in the exported article, but not in excess of the quantity imported and on which duty has been paid. Let me illustrate by a concrete example. A manufacturer of agricultural implements requires, let us say, 30,000 tons of pig iron in respect of his entire business, both home and foreign, during the year. Let us say that his export business is 10,000 tons of product. Now, it was the intention of the section of the Customs Act which I have read, and the regulations made thereunder, that that manufacturer should be able to obtain a drawback in respect of the duties upon the foreign pig iron entering into the
10.000	tons of product exported. Let us further suppose that of the 30,000 tons of pig iron purchased our manufacturer buys
10.000	tons from the United States and -20,000 tons in Canada. They are melted up together, and when he claims his drawback in respect of the 10,000 tons of exported product, the customs officers, under the authority of this statute, are only able to give him a drawback of one-third the duty upon the 10,000 tons of imported foreign pig iron. The reason for that is that the 20,000 tons of domestic pig iron which he had purchased aTe melted together with the foreign pig iron. The customs officers say that it cannot be demonstrated that the 10,000 tons of American pig iron went into the 10,000 tons of manufactured product. Therefore, they say, we will not allow you a drawback in respect of the 10,000 tons of pig iron which you have imported from the United States; we must assume that only one-third of that went into the 10,000 tons of exported product; and we shall allow you, therefore, one-third of the duty which you paid on the 10,000 tons. The result is that Canadian manufacturers who manufacture for export have a special inducement to buy all their pig iron from abroad. If the manufacturer whose case I have taken had bought the whole 30,000 tons of pig iron from the United States, no question would have arisen with the customs officials. He would have been entitled to a drawback in respect of the amount exported. The pig iron industry of Canada has suffered by reason of the inducement which is held out to manufacturers under the drawback regulations
to purchase all their requirements in the way of pig iron in the United States. We propose to remedy that, and on behalf of my hon. friend the Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) I beg to give the following notice of motion:
Resolved, that it is expedient to provide that the Governor in Council may, under regulations made for the purpose, allow, on the exportation of goods manufactured in Canada and into the manufacture of which pig iron imported into Canada mixed with pig iron made in Canada has entered, a drawback, equal to the duty paid, less such deductions therefrom as is provided in such regulations, on all the pig iron imported and used by the manufacturer of such goods in manufacturing the goods exported and other goods, and the drawback may be computed on the total quantity of pig iron, including pig iron made as aforesaid, entering into such exported goods.
Mr. G-ERMAN: That will cover all imported pig iron?


William Thomas White: If 10,000 tons of pig
iron come in and are purchased by a manufacturer who exports 10,000 tons of pig iron in his exported product, he will get a drawback in respect of the duty paid upon the entire 10,000 tons imported.


Wilfrid Laurier: Will my hon. friend give us the text of the present clause which he proposes to amend?


William Thomas White: Section 288 of the Customs Act Teads as follows:
The Governor in Council may, under regulations made for that purpose, allow, on the exportation of goods which have been imported into Canada, and on which a duty of Customs has been paid, a drawback equal to the duty so paid with such deductions therefrom as is provided in such regulations.
2.	In cases mentioned in such regulations, and subject to such provisions as are therein made, such drawback, or a specific sum in lieu thereof, may be allowed on duty-paid goods manufactured or wrought in Canada into goods exported therefrom.
3.	The period within which such drawback may be allowed, after the time when the duty was paid, shall be limited in such regulations.
I have read the resolution, and the effect of the change will be as I have already indicated to the House.
At the present time in Canada the fuel used for the production of pig iron is coke and charcoal. Coke is already on the free list; charcoal is among the unenumerated items of the tariff and subject to the duties in respect of unenumerated items. There are two furnaces in Canada engaged in the manufacture of charcoal pig iron, one at Deseronto and the other at Parry Sound. I believe both are closed at the present time on account of the depressed condition of the iron industry. We propose to put

charcoal pig iron upon the same basis as the pig iron produced from coke, and I shall therefore propose that charcoal, when imported for purposes of pig iron production shall receive a drawback of 99 per cent of the duty paid. That will be somewhat of an assistance to the charcoal pig iron industry.
I wish now to deal with a cognate subject. At present coke is free for all purposes, that is to say, an American manufacturer located at Buffalo and having his bituminous coal free of duty, can manufacture coke and supply the needs say, of Hamilton or other parts of Canada. Bituminous coal is dutiable under the present tariff at 53 cents per ton. Bituminous coal is free under drawback provision when imported by proprietors of smelting works and converted into coke at the works for the smelting of metals from ores. The drawback section in the tariff is No. 1,019. That means that the proprietors of smelting works may bring in bituminous coal and when the coal is converted into coke at their works for the smelting of metals from ores a drawback of 99 per cent is allowed in respect to the duties paid upon that coial. It is reported to us that large works would be erected in Canada, at Hamilton for one place, and possibly in other places, if proprietors of coke ovens were allowed the same privilege for the same purpose, that is to say, for the smelting of metals from ores and for foundry purposes.
Let me illustrate. A manufacturer of coke at Euffalo to-day can send his coke free to Canada for use in the smelting of metal or for foundry or other purposes. It is only open to the coke manufacturer in Canada to-day to get a drawback in respect of the duty paid upon bituminous coal or coal from which coke is produced if such coke is used at the works in the smelting of metals from ores. We propose to amend that section 1,019 so as to provide that there shall be a drawback in respect to all duties paid upon bituminous coal when imported by proprietors of coke ovens for the smelting of metals from ores and for foundry purposes. We have made careful inquiry into this matter and we have not been unmindful of the coal interests of Canada, especially those of the Maritime provinces, and we are satisfied that there will be no injurious effect to the great coal mining industries of Canada by reason of the extension of the drawback so as to enable coke manufacturer? who desire

to supply the Canadian market to locate in the city of Hamilton, say, instead of being obliged, under the present law, to locate in the city of Buffalo.


Mr. MACDONALD:: Will the minister
tell me what that limitation is exactly under the change he proposes?


William Thomas White: When I read the resolutions I will give my hon. friend the wording.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I would like to ask
the hon. minister whether there are coke ovens at Buffalo or whether the coke ovens are not located at the mines in the United States.	.


William Thomas White: I understand that there is a question at the present time as to whether a large industry will be located at Buffalo for the purpose of supplying the Canadian market, or whether it will be located in Hamilton.


Henry Robert Emmerson: There are none in
Buffalo now?


William Thomas White: I would not say that there is any. I am not aware as to whether there is or is not. I would like to meet the question of my hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. Macdonald). The wording is:
When imported by proprietors of coke ovens and converted at their coke ovens into coke for use in the smelting of metals from ores and in the melting of metals.
They must convert the coal at their works into coke and its use is limited to the smelting of metals from ores and the melting of metals. The latter will be for foundry purposes.
Dealing further with the iron and steel industry, I would call the attention of the House to item 398 of the tariff. That item is as follows:
Wrought or seamless iron or steel tubing, plain or galvanized, threaded and coupled or not, over 4 inches in diameter n.o.p., British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 12| per cent; general tariff, 15 per cent.
The House will observe that there is a limitation to ' wrought and seamless iron or steel tubing over 4 inches in diameter,' whereas tariff item 399 is as follows:
Wrought or seamless iron or steel tubing, plain or galvanized, threaded and coupled or not, 4 inches or less in diameter, n.o.p. British preferential tariff, 20 per cent; intermediate tariff, 30 per cent; general tariff, 35 per cent.
At the time the customs tariff of 1907 was enacted this tubing over 4 inches in diameter was not being manufactured in

Canada. It is being now, and has been for some time, manufactured by the Page, Her-sey Company of Welland. We intend therefore to give an increase up to 10 inches so as to meet the changed conditions regarding the manufacture of this article in Canada. In that connection we shall amend drawback clause 1,017, making it uniform and granting a drawback of 50 per cent instead of 99 per cent in respect of one of its parts.


William John Macdonald: What will be the
exact position of item 398? Will it be amended or is it only the drawback?


William Thomas White: That will drop out and
will be re-enacted under two items.


Mr. NESBITT:: What is the reason of
the dropping of seamless tubing?


William Thomas White: I will explain the matter
in committee. It will take considerable time to explain it. I hope that will be satisfactory to my bon. friend. I can assure him that this drawback is a comparatively unimportant matter. That concludes the tariff changes that I have to propose in connection with the iron and steel industry.
I come now to deal with the important subject of agricultural implements, and with the consent of the House I shall treat of it somewhat at length, especially in view of the debate which took place recently upon the resolution of my hon. friend from Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles), asking for the abolition of all duties upon agricultural implements.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


William Thomas White: Mr. Speaker,
when the House rose at sax o'clock, I was entering upon a consideration of the question of duties upon agricultural implements. I stated that it was my intention, to deal with the matter somewhat at length on account of the resolution which was moved by my hon. friend from Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles) in this House recently and the debate thereon which ensued. I did not take part in that debate, because, although the resolution was entirely in order, I felt that a discussion upon a matter relating to duties could more properly take place upon the occasion of the Budget Speech. Now, Mr. Speaker, it has been recognized, I think, by all governments that it is most important that duties upon agricultural implements should be fixed at rates as reasonable as possible having regard to fiscal policy. Agriculture is recognized as the great basic industry, and it is'important that the implements. which the farmer uses-his plant, so to .speak-should cost him as little as possible. This principle, Sir, is recognized in the tariff of to-day. The average rate of duty upon dutiable goods under the present tariff, the tariff of 1907-the tariff of the late Government as well as of the Government of to-day-is 26 per cent. The duties upon agricultural implements are chiefly 17i per cent and 20 per cent.
Now, there is one point to which I desire to refer in this discussion. The tariff of this or of any other country-and especially of a protective country- is a structure; one part is dependent upon another part; the rates of the tariff are related one to another; the rates on finished products are related to and largely dependent on the rates on Taw materials which are usually the finished product of other manufactures, and dutiable. This solidarity, so to speak, of the tariff cannot be lost sight of. Usually it is impossible to deal with a single item without at the same time dealing also with other related or dependent items. To arbitrarily single out special products and lower or abolish the duties upon them fwithout dealing (also with necessarily related duties would not only result in the grossest injustice to those affected thereby but would exercise a most harmful effect upon the entire industry of the nation by the ensuing loss of confidence on the part of the business community. On account of this consideration, it is unusual to make many tariff changes except upon occasions of general revision when the tariff can be dealt with as a whole after due inquiry and consideration as to the scope and bearing o.f all changes proposed. If modifications are then regarded as necessary, upon a range of products or commodities any other modifications dependent thereon or necessary thereto .may also be made, to the end that injustice and disturbance of business may, as far as possible, be avoided.
Now, Mr. Speaker, this is by way of preface to the remarks which I propose to offer in respect of the resolution which was supported, I believe, unanimously by the Liberal members of this House to the effect that:

In the opinion of this House the time has arrived when, in the interests of the farmers, and consequently in the interests of the whole of Canada, the duties on agricultural implements should be forthwith removed.
Sir, there is no reservation or exception about that resolution; it is a drastic resolution calling for the abolition of all duties upon all agricultural implements of every kind and nature whatsoever. Upon the occasion of the debate on the Address, I referred to the declaration at Hamilton and at Montreal by my right hon. friendi the leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier), in favour of a policy of free food, and I said on that occasion, and I say now, that free food means free trade. I say further now, that free agricultural implements means free trade.


Mr. TURRIFF:: Free trade in implements.


William Thomas White: Free trade. Having gone so far, my right hon. friend must inevitably go farther. The logical and inevitable outcome and conclusion of his declaration respecting free food and of the policy respecting free agricultural implements is the fiscal policy of free trade. Sir, I have no exception to take to my right hon. friend espousing a policy of free trade. I simply desire to say this-that we on this side of the House are ready to accept that gage of battle, whenever he chooses to throw it down.
Now, I am going to ask this House to consider the position of the manufacturer of agricultural implements with all his duties abolished. But first, what is his position under the tariff of to-day? The manufacturer of agricultural implements, as the manufacturer of other commodities in Canada, buys subject to duty, his stone, his brick and all other building materials that enter into the composition of his establishment. He buys subject to duties his engines, his machinery and his plant generally. He pays fifty-three cents a ton upon the coal that he consumes in his furnaces. He buys subject to duty his iron, his steel, his bars, his shapes, sheets, wire, forgings, plates, nuts, washers, tubing, chains, castings and practically all other articles entering into his product. The range of duties upon the articles I have mentioned is for the most part from twenty per cent to thirty per cent. With practically everything he uses dutiable, on what principle can we sweep away the duties upon the product of the manufacturer of agricultural implements? I ask this House, upon what principle can it be done? Now, is my right hon. friend prepared to take the further logical

step and to vote for the abolition of all duties upon the raw and finished products	entering into	the manufacturing	of agricultural	implements ?
To do so would work the most serious damage to all industries concerned: to the coal industry, to our great basic iron and steel industry, to our machine and foundry industry, to say nothing of a multitude of others of minor importance. A large part of their tonnage would be lost to foreign manufacturers, and many establishments would undoubtedly close their doors. Let us assume for a moment that my right hon. friend was ready to go so far as that; would he then accomplish the end that he had in view? Could the manufacturer of agricultural implements-and by agricultural implements I mean all agricultural implements, because that is what the resolution had in contemplation-could he, if he had all the products constituting his material upon the free list, hold his own in competition with the implement makers of the United States? The cost of production is necessarily higher in Canada, even under those conditions, for this reason: it is a well-known fact that cost of production is in inverse ratio to the tonnage: the greater the tonnage, the greater the number of implements manufactured, the less the cost of production, and until this country has developed its industry to the extent to which it has been developed in the United States, it will not be possible for us to compete on even terms with the highly specialized and powerful industries of that republic.
One of the greatest markets for agricultural implements in Canada is the Northwest. I have been looking into the question of freight rates and I find that the freight rates between Chicago and Winnipeg upon agricultural implements are lower than they are between Hamilton and Winnipeg. Therefore, even if the duties upon raw materials were abolished, the Canadian manufacturer of agricultural implements would be at a disadvantage with his American competitors. That being so, what would be the inevitable result of the policy, advocated by hon. gentlemen opposite, of the abolition of duties on all agricultural implements of every kind and nature whatsoever? The effect would be this: it would transfer the entire agricultural implement business of Canada to the United States; it would depopulate some of our most thriving towns, and for what? That an American trust ultimately might gain control of the Canadian market from east to west and dictate prices at its own sweet will.

I propose to examine this agricultural implement industry; to see where are the manufactories engaged in the production of agricultural implements, and to see how important is this industry to Canada. According to the census of 1911 there are in Canada seventy-seven of these establishments, with a capital of 545,000,000. The number of employees at factories and head offices, nearly all men, is 9,560, and the amount of salaries and wages paid is *5,550,000, materials used amount to $10,400,000, and the value of products is $20,700,000. There are fifty-four of these establishments in Ontario, located at forty-three different places and in 35 electoral districts. The capital invested in Ontario alone is $44,000,000. The other establishments are located in the province of Quebec, and at Winnipeg and Brandon in the province of Manitoba. I have a complete list of the places in which there are manufactories of agricultural implements.
I shall not go through it in detail, but for the information of the House-because it was a surprise to me-I propose to mention to-night the names of the places in Canada in which agricultural implements of one kind or another are manufactured. This is The list:	Hamilton, Brockville, Toronto,
Peterborough, Preston, St. Mary's, Smith-Falls, Teeswater, Welland, Terrebonne, Guelph, Ingersoll, St. George, Woodstock, Brantford, Cowansville, Aurora, Ayr, Bolton, Goderich, Merrickville, Orillia, Paris, La Prairie, Montmagny, Tillsonburg, Brandon, Chatham, Waterloo, New Hamburg, St. Hyacinthe, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Ridgetown, St. Andre, Warwick, Summerside, P.E.I., Calgary, St. Thomas, St. Catharines, Stratford, Iberville, Joliette, Halifax, New Glasgow, Waterloo, Walkerville, Sorel, Water-ville. So far as the record goes, there are agricultural implement establishments m every province except British Columbia. In these places there is invested $45,000,000 of capital, the manufactories supporting directly, in operatives and their families, probably 50,000 people-the mainstay industrially of many of the -towns that I have mentioned, which afford .a market for the surrounding country; these .are the establishments that the policy of hon. gentlemen opposite, the policy of the .abolition, root and branch, of duties on agricultural implements, would destroy.
What is the condition to-day of those engaged in the manufacture of agricultural implements ? I have looked into this matter with a view of ascertaining the facts and dealing with them, I trust, fairly and 156
judicially. Those engaged in the manufacture of agricultural implements have felt, in common with those engaged in all other enterprises, and are feeling to-day the financial conditions which have prevailed in Canada during the past two years. Those conditions have been aggravated by a credit system under which the manufacturers of agricultural implements become virtually the bankers for many of those to whom they sell their products. Last year their expectations were , . disappointed as to the demand there would be for their productions, and to-day the agricultural implement manufacturers of Canada are carrying large inventories because of the over-production of last year. They are confronted this year with the condition that prevailed to a large extent last year. Money is becoming easier, but they do not expect that their output of this year will at all reach the output of the last and preceding years. Having regard to the fact that the tariff rates upon one commodity are fixed with regard to the rates upon the raw material entering into its production; and having regard to the financial conditions which prevail today and affect that industry in common with all others, I say that any extreme, high-handed or arbitrary action could only result most disastrously to that industry. Sir, we are not here to destroy but to encourage and promote Canadian industry.
I say that that is our mandate as a Government from the people of Canada. Now we have not been unmindful of the interests of the farmer. We have been desirous that the tariff upon his implements, his plant should be as reasonable as possible,^ consistent with our fiscal policy and conditions as they exist in Canada to-day. But, Sir, we have approached the subject in a rational way. We have . made inquiries. For considerably over a year past we have been making inquiries and investigations into the question of agricultural implements. We have made an investigation into the prices of agricultural implements on both sides of the line, in Canada and in the United States. We have made an inquiry as to the factory cost of production of the principal agricultural implements in Canada and in the United States. We have examined the balance sheets of manufacturers with the idea of ascertaining what their position is and whether or not they a -e making undue profit upon their business.


John Gillanders Turriff: Would the hon. gentleman state whether, in making that examination, he also examined as to what amount



of cash was in the stock and what amount of water?


William Thomas White: The examination as to
selling price was made toy a trusted official of the Customs Department, Mr. Thomas Costello. We examined into the cost of production. I examined the balance sheets myself and I think, without paying myself too much of a compliment, that I know something about a balance sheet. After having given this matter the most careful and painstaking consideration, we are satisfied that on only one range of implements can the duty be lowered without violation of the fiscal policy of reasonable protection which is designed to encourage and promote the establishment of industries in Canada. There is in the tariff an item respecting a range of implements which are much used in the northwestern provinces; I refer to harvesters, reapers, binders and mowers. I think I should point out to the House, because it is pertinent to the observations I made a short time ago with reference to the duties upon raw material entering Into products, that there exists a drawback upon iron and steel, the principal commodities used in the production of these implements, harvesters, reapers, binders and mowers. We have been asked upon more than one occasion to repeal that drawback and to give the steel manufacturers the benefit of the market. There is much to be said for that course. It is a course which would commend itself to one seeking to follow a policy of protection. But, in the interests of the farming community and having regard to the tariff as it exists to-day, we have said:	We will allow that drawback
item to stand. That drawback upon iron and steel is equivalent to about two or two and a half per cent upon the value of a binder, reaper, moweT or harvester. I differentiate the industry engaged in the manufacture of harvesters, reapers, binders and mowers from the others.


Mr. McCOIG:: Would the minister state what he means by harvesters, reapers and binders?


William Thomas White: I am quoting the words
used in the tariff.


Archibald Blake McCoig: A harvester and a binder are the same thing, it is one machine.


Mr. GERMAN:: Does the minister refer to two classes of machine or to one?


William Thomas White: We will call them one, anything for peace. We will say harvesters, reapers and mowers. The binder does not 
count, because it means the same thing as a harvester. When I was a boy we used to call them binders. There are three firms in Canada engaged to-day in the manufacture of harvesters, reapers and mowers, the Massey-Harris Company, of Toronto, the International Harvester Company, of Hamilton, and the Frost & Wood Company, of Smith Falls.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: And the Noxon Company, of Ingersoll.


William Thomas White: I had overlooked that firm; I shall be glad to learn of any others. I would make this distinction between the cases of harvesters, reapers and mowers and all other agricultural implements, that for home consumption there is a drawback upon iron and steel products entering into the manufacture of those three implements. That is one point of distinction between the industries engaged in the manufacture of those implements and industries engaged in the manufacture of all other agricultural implements. Another point of distinction is this. Those are among the most highly developed industries in the world. The manufacture of harvesters, reapers and mowers has been brought to an extraordinary point of perfection both in Canada and in the United States, and it is a matter of pride to me that the Canadian manufacturer of harvesters, reapers and mowers is not only able to hold his own but to do exceptionally well and sometimes to best his competitors in the markets of the world.


Archibald Blake McCoig: Will that include corn harvesters as well* as grain harvesters?


William Thomas White: I am unable to answer that question immediately, it is a more or less technical question, and I have not the information at the moment.


Archibald Blake McCoig: They are both harvesters.


William Thomas White: I am covering, or intending to cover the item in respect of which a drawback is given on pig iron and steel and their products entering into the manufacture of the implements. I think it does include corn harvesters, but I am unable to say definitely to my hon. friend, because the matter has not been called to-my attention. What is, then, the position of these manufacturers of harvesters, reapers and mowers? The Massey-Harris Company has an export business equal to sixty-five per cent of its output. The International Harvester Company of Chicago has, of course, a laTge export

business, but I understand that its export business in Canada is not large. Having regard to the highly developed condition of this industry, and to the fact that it enjoys a drawback in respect of iron and steel, which are the principal products entering into the manufacture of agricultural implements, we have, after the most careful consideration, reached the conclusion that the duty upon harvesters, reapers, binders and mowers, which now stands at 171 per cent in the customs tariff of 1907, can ibe reduced to 121 per cent.


Mr. SCHAFFNER:: Why do not gentlemen opposite cheer now?


William Thomas White: that is 21 per cent lower than the rates upon harvesters, reapers, binders and mowers proposed in the celebrated reciprocity agreement. Having regard to the cost of production of these implements in the United States and in Canada to-day, and having regard to the greater tonnage of the United States output, and to the difference in freight rates in favour of the United States manufacturers of those implements, I say that that is as low a rate as we are able to obtain if we are to retain these great industries in the Dominion of Canada. Statistics of the Customs Department show that in respect of export of harvesters, reapers, binders and mowers, the drawback, which means all the duty that has been paid upon foreign material entering into their manufacture, is about equivalent to 5 per cent. If, therefore,- we take into consideration the 21 per cent which we are still allowing them, and, further, the 21 per cent representing the balance of that 5 per cent, harvesters, reapers, binders and mowers are really, so far as protection is concerned, on a 10 per cent basis. I have dealt, I am afraid, somewhat at length, but I hope fairly and justly, with the question of agricultural implements.
There is just one other matter that 1 have to deal with. Last year we placed upon the free list ditching machines, but inadvertently omitted parts of ditching machines. This year we shall put parts of ditching machines upon the free list.
I now come to another topic-the question of building stone. By item 306 of the tariff, there is a duty of 20 per cent on building stone dressed, and on rough stone a duty of 15 per cent. That is a difference of 5 per cent, but that margin 1561
is more than nullified by the freight rates, and for this reason: When a block of stone is dressed it loses a certain amount of its weight; dressed stone comes in at a 20 per cent duty, but in the dressing, which add* value to it, sufficient weight has been taken off the stone to more than counterbalance, having regard to freights, the-margin between the duty upon rough stone and the duty on the finished product. This has been a very great disadvantage to the-Canadian stonecutters. Notwithstanding' the building activity of the past few years, there have been frequent periods of unemployment among the stonecutters of' Canada. The stone comes from Ohio and Indiana, where, for the most part, the work is done. We have been repeatedly petitioned by the stonecutters throughout Canada for a modification of this tariff item, which will permit the rough stone to come in at precisely the. same rate of duty existing to-day, and give the work upon that rough stone, the sawing, the dressing and the planing to the stonecutters of Canada. We propose, therefore, that stone sawn on two-sides shall continue to come in at the present rate of duty but that on stone sawn on-four sides the rate shall be fifteen cents per 100 pounds. There is very great difficulty in administering the tariff to-day on account of the difficulty in ascertaining the value of finished, dressed stone coming in as an import. The average ad valorem of the specific rate which I have quoted is 30 per cent. Upon turned, planed, cut or further finished stone I propose a rate of 45 cents per 100 pounds, which is equal to 30 per cent ad valorem. The reason why that higher rate is about the equivalent ad valorem rate to the lower specific rate on stone sawn on four sides is because of the greater value of the stone which has been planed, turned, cut or further finished. These are the proposals which the Government has to offer in regard to building stone, and I believe that the increase in the tariff rate will enure directly to the benefit of the stonecutters of Canada and indirectly to the country.
One further item-caustic soda and hypochlorite of lime. At present these two items are on the free list. The Canadian Salt Company at Windsor, which employs many men and has a large capital invested in its plant, has for three years been manufacturing these products made from salt. The manufacture of caustic soda and hypochlorite of lime-which is a by-product of
24S4

- caustic soda-is a natural industry in connection with salt production. The users of caustic soda and chloride of lime are the soap and paper manufacturers, but they use a very small proportion indeed having regard to their production. Therefore, it is not necessary that there should be any readjustment or increase of the tariff by reason of the rates which I shall have the honour to propose to the House. The Canadian Salt Company at Windsor produce now one-third of Canada's requirements in caustic soda. They hope, with the aid of this duty, to produce all. Later, I shall give, in the resolutions which I shall propose, the rates of duties which I have to offer with respect to these two commodities.
I come now to another matter which has been brought to our attention; that is, the tariff with respect to brass. In the tariff of 1907 brass in sheets, bars and rods was dutiable at 10 per cent. It was not manufactured in Canada, and, under a provision of the Customs Act, on August 11, 1908, the Governor in Council abolished the duty of 10 per cent on brass bars and rods, and it consequently was placed upon the free list. I have stated that it -was not then manufactured in Canada. However, I am now glad to say that it is manufactured in Canada. A new plant, involving a capital of about $250,000, modern, up to date, and well equipped, has been established at West Toronto for the manufacture of copper and brass. I propose now, and it also will involve no tariff adjustment, to restore the item of brass in sheets, bars and rods to the tariff, fixing the same duty as was fixed with respect to it in the tariff of 1907.
Now, I approach the end of what I fear has been a somewhat long-drawn-out and tedious Budget. There are a number of minor changes, some of consequence, but chiefly for administrative purposes. Before reaching the resolutions which we have to propose, in order to give notice of them, there is a matter to which I desire briefly to advert and it is the question of a bounty upon iron ore. This matter has been brought to the attention of the Government by the hon. member for Thunder Bay and Eainy River (Mr. Carrick) who, in a very able speech, introduced the subject to the House. The matter has been discussed in the press, and I notice that it has been made the subject of a debate in
	-
the Legislature of the province of Ontario. Without dilating further upon the subject, because the debate which ensued was of a very illuminating and informing character, I desire to say that the Government feels that at the present time it has not sufficient information before it as a basis for intelligent legislative action. Speaking this afternoon with regard to the question of bounties generally, I said that, personally, I saw no objection to bounties granted for the purpose of calling an industry into being, but that there was a strong objection to continuing bounties to industries that had been firmly established. We propose, in respect to this important matter, which has been brought to our attention by the hon. member for Thunder Bay and Rainy River to cause an inquiry to be' instituted by the Mines Department during the qoming summer for the purpose of ascertaining the extent and availability of Canada's ore deposits and the character of the ore, and securing information as complete as possible as to improved methods of treatment. We desire to ascertain, as a result of that inquiry, whether a bounty will induce development and place the Canadian iron ore industry in a reasonable time upon a secure basis, enabling it to compete with foreign ore without the adventitious aid of further bounties.
There is another matter also involving the question of bounties which I desire to call to the attention of the House. There has been placed before us recently, in fact since the beginning of the year, the question of the development in Canada of flax fibre production. I think that the development of the industry of flax fibre production would be of great advantage to certain parts of Canada provided it could be-carried on successfully here. But the success of manufacturing flax fibre will depend upon the efficiency of the flax pulling machines and the flax fibre manufacturing machines. I am unable at present to express any opinion as to whether the flax fibre industry is one which, having regard to the labour conditions that prevail in this country, and the stage of invention of the machinery required, should	be	regarded	as	a possibleindustry, but during the summer it is our	intention	to	look fully
into the matter and see whether such an industry is possible of development in Canada, and whether a reasonable bounty

would have the effect of contributing to its institution and development.


Mr. MURPHY:: By whom will the inquiry be made?


William Thomas White: The first inquiry will be
made by the Mines Department, and I am now communicating with Mr. Brock. The second inquiry will be conducted by the officers of the Finance Department, tariff branch. That is what I have in my mind at the present time. If it is necessary, we can easily obtain outside expert assistance in the matter.
I propose to offer an amendment to section 7 of the Customs Tariff Act of 1907. That section is as follows:
Articles which are the produce or manufacture of any foreign country which treats imports from Canada less favourably than those from other countries may he subject to a surtax over and above the duties specified in schedule 'A' to this Act, such surtax in every case to he one-third of the duty specified in the general tariff in the said schedule.
I would call the attention of the House ' to the fact that the provision of one-third is inflexible; that is to say, it must be one-third, no more and no less. In similar legislation in other countries-Germany, Japan and Italy-there is a provision that the surtax may be a rate not exceeding 50 per cent or 30 per cent; that is to say, it is in the discretion of the Government whether it will be 2 per cent, or 15 per cent, or more.
I purpose, Sir, offering an amendment to section 7 of the customs tariff, which will provide that imports from countries which discriminate against the imports of Canada or against Canadian shipping may be subject to a surtax over and above the duty specified in the Customs Tariff Act, to an amount not exceeding twenty per cent ad valorem. That is to say, it may be two per cent, or five per cent, or ten per cent, or fifteen per cent, but it must not, under any circumstances, exceed twenty per cent, ad valorem. I desire to give notice that upon the House resolving itself into Committee I shall move the following resolutions-


John Howard Sinclair: Would the minister tell the House whether he has considered the application made last year and the year before for a reduction of the tariff on fishing itwine, known as marlin. This duty discriminates against the lobster fisheries, all other fishing twine being free. The Minister of Customs told the House last year that when the tariff was dealt with this matter would be considered.


William Thomas White: The matter is not dealt
with in the changes which I have to propose to the House. I understand that there would be difficulty in the administration of an item such as, I think, the bon. gentleman (Mr. Sinclair) has in mind,
9 p.m. but the matter has not been drawn to my attention, so iar as I recall, since the House was in Committee upon the Budget of last year. I now beg to give notice that, upon the House resolving itself into Committee, I shall move the following resolutions:
1. Resolved, that it is expedient to provide, in substitution for section 7 of the Customs tariff, 1907 :-
(a)	that goods the product or manufacture of any foreign country which treats imports from Canada less favourably than those from other countries may be made subject by Order in Council in the case of goods already dutiable to a surtax not exceeding twenty per centum ad valorem, and in the case of goods not dutiable to a rate of duty not exceeding twenty per centum ad valorem;
(b)	that goods the product or manufacture of any foreign country imported into Canada in vessels registered in such foreign country may, if such foreign country imposes higher duties of customs upon goods imported into such country in vessels registered in Canada than upon the like goods when imported in vessels of such country, be made subject by Order, in Council in the case of goods already dutiable to a surtax not exceeding twenty per centum, ad valorem, and in the case of goods not dutiable to a rate of duty not exceeding twenty per centum ad valorem.
2 Resolved, that the customs tariff, 1907, be amended by authorizing the Governor in Council when satisfied that rolled iron or steel angles, beams, channel and other rolled shapes or sections, or iron or steel weighing one hundred arid twenty pounds and less per lineal yard, are manufactured in substantial quantities in Canada from steel made in Canada to direct that there be substituted for tariff item 379 in schedule A to the customs tariff, 1907, the following:

Tariff Items.	-	British Preferential Tariff.	Intermediate Tariff.	General Tariff.379 ,	Rolled iron or steel angles, beams, channels, and other rolled shapes or sections, of iron or steel, not punched, drilled or further manufactured than rolled, weighing over one hundred and twenty pounds per lineal yard, n.o.p. not being square, flat, oval or round shapes, and not being railway bars or rails	S cts.	$ cts.	3 cts.per ton	2 00	3 00	3 00
3. Resolved that schedule A to the Customs tariff, 1907, as amended by chapter 15 of the Acts of 1913, and by Orders in Council be further amended by striking thereout tariff items: 113, 184, 208, 210a, 296, 306, 315, 361, 375, 398, 404, 410, 411, 445, 446a, 460, 471, 486, 542, 543, 545, 546, 575, 577, sections (a) and (d) of the Orders in Council dated 11th August, 1908,
designated as items 717 and 720 of the customs tariff, the several enumerations of goods respectively, and the several rates of duties of customs, if any, set opposite each of said items, and to provide that the following items, enumerations and rates of duties be inserted in said schedule A :-	'
Tariff Items.	-	British Preferential Tariff.	Intermediate Tariff.	General Tariff.39c	Cassava flour, when imported by manufacturers of explosives, for use exclusively in the manufacture of such articles in their own factories..	Free.	Free.	Free.79a	Rooted carnation cuttings in their first year oi introduction	Free.	Free.	Free.99a	Dried or evaporated bananas	per pound	Free.	i cent.	$ cent.113	Cocoanut, desiccated, sweetened or not per pound	3 cents.	4 cents.	4 cents.157a	Amyl alcohol or refined fusel oil, when imported by the Department of Inland Revenue or by a person licensed by the Minister of Inland Revenue, to be denatured for use in the manufacture of metal varnishes or lacquers, to be entered at ports prescribed by regulations of the Ministers of Customs and Inland Revenue, subject to the Inland Revenue Act and to the regulations of the Department of Inland Revenue	Free.	Free.	Free.178a	Provided that on the goods specified in item 178 and imported by mail on and after first day of July, 1914, duties may be paid by Customs Revenue stamps, under regulations by the Minister of Customs, at the rates specified in said item, except that on each separate package weighing not more than one ounce the duty shall be	
each	1 cent.	1 cent;	1 cent.184	Newspapers, and quarterly, monthly, and semimonthly magazines, and weekly literary papers, unbound; tailors', milliners' and mantle-makers'fashion plates when imported in single copies in sheet from with magazines or periodical trade journals	Free.	Free.	Free.188a	Decalcomania paper not printed when imported by manufacturers of decalcomania transfers to be used in their own factories in the manufacture of decalcomania transfers	Free.	Free.	Free.
IMr. W. T. White.]

Tariff Items.	-	British ! Preferential Tariff.	ntermediate Tariff.	General Tariff.208 I	Soracic acid and borax in packages of not less than twenty-five pounds weight; hydro-fluo-silicic acid; oxalic acid; tannic acid; ammonia, sulphate of; sal ammoniac and nitrate of ammonia; cyanide of potassium; cyanide of sodium and cyanogen bromide for reducing metals in mining operations; antimony salts, viz.:-tartar emetic, cholrine and lactate (antimonine); arsenous oxide; oxide of cobalt: oxide of tin; bichloride of tin; tin crystals; oxide of copper; precipitate of copper, crude; sulphate of copper (blue vitriol); verdigris or subacetate of copper, dry; sulphate of iron (copperas); sulphate of zinc; chloride of zinc; -sulphur and brimstone, crude or in roll or flour; cream of tartar, in crystals or argols; tartaric acid crystals; iodine, crude; bromine; phosphorus; sulphide of	Free.	Free.	Free.208a	Chloride of lime and hypochlorite of lime:- 1. When in packages of not less than twenty-five pounds weight each	per	10 cents.	15 cents.	15 cents.2. When in packages of less than twenty-five	171 p.c.	25 p.c.	25 p.c.
210a	Caustic soda:- 1.	When in packages of not less than twenty- five pounds weight each	per pound 2.	When in packages of less than twenty-five	l-5cent. 17^ p.c.	3-10 cent. 25 p.c.	3-10 cent. 25 p.c.
				
278a	Peanut oil for manufacturing soap or for canning fish; soya bean oil for manufacturing soap...	Free.	Free.	Free.296	Flint, ground flint stones; felspar, fluorspar, magnesite; mica schist; cliff, chalk, china or Cornwall stone, ground or unground, refuse stone, not sawn, hammered or chiselled nor fit for flagstone, building stone or paving	Free.	Free.	Free.306	Marble, sawn or sand rubbed, not polished; granite, sawn; paving blocks of stone; flagstone and building stone, other than marble or granite, sawn or not more than two sides....	15 p.c.	20 p.c.	20 p.c.306a	Building stone, other than marble or granite, sawn on more than two sides but not sawn on more than four sides, per hundred pounds....	10 cents.	15 cents.	15 cents.306b	Building stone, other than marble or granite planed, turned, cut or further manufacturec than sawn on four sides, per one hundred pounds	30 cents.	45 cents.	45 cents.315	Carbons over six inches in circumference or outside measurement and not exceeding thirty-five inches in circumference or outside mea	Free.	Free.	Free.315a	Carbon electrodes exceeding thirty-five inches ii circumference or outside measurement	12^ p.c.	20 p.c.	20 p.c.327a	Silvered lenses for automobile lamps	10 p.c.	15 p.c.	15 p.c.353a 361	Free.	Free.	Free.Gold and silver leaf; Dutch or schlag metal leaf	. 15 p.c.	27J P-c.	271 P-c-
375	Iron in pigs, iron kentledge, and cast scrap iron ferrosilicon containing not more than fiftee per cent silicon; ferromanganese and spiege leisen, containing not more than fifteen pe cent manganese, per ton		; n r . $1 50	$2 50	$2 50

Tariff Items.	British Preferential Tariff.	; Intermediate Tariff.	General Tariff.375a 375b	Ferrosilicon containing more than fifteen pe cent silicon, per ton	
Ferromanganese and speigeleisen, containing mori	$3 00	$4 50	$4 50378a	than fifteen per cent manganese	
Galvanized rolled hoop iron or hoop steel, num	Free.	Free.	Free.398	bers twelve and thirteen gauge... .per ton. Wrought or seamless iron or steel tubing, plain oi galvanized, threaded and coupled or not, ovei four inches in diameter but not exceeding ten	$4.25	$7.00	$7.00inches in diameter, n.o.p..	20 p.c.	30 p.c.	30 p.c.398a	Wrought or seamless iron or steel tubing, plain or galvanized, threaded and coupled or not, ovei	404	ten inches in diameter, n.o.p... Galvanized iron or steel wire, curved or not, numbers nine, twelve and thirteen gauge with variations from such gauges not exceeding four one-thousands of an inch, and not for use	10 p.c.	15 p.c.	15 p.c.410	in telegraph or telephone lines	
Coil chain, coil chain links including repair links, and chain shackles, of iron or steel, one and one-eighth of an inch in diameter and	Free.	Free.	Free.410a	over	
Coil chain, coil chain links including repair links	Free.	5 p.c.	5 p.c.411	and chain shackles, of iron or steel, n.o.p	
Malleable sprocket chain, and link belting chain of steel, when imported by manufacturers of agricultural implements for use in the manufacture of such implements in their own fac-	15 p.c.	20 p.c.	20 p.c.445	tories	
Mowing machines, harvesters, self binding or without binders, binding attachments, reapers, and complete parts thereof, not including shafting or malleable iron castings, also finished parts for repairs of the machines speci-	Free.	Free.	Free.445a	fied in this item	
Malleable iron castings when imported by manufacturers for use exclusively in their own factories in the manufacture of mowing machines	12y2 p.c.	12HP-C.	12}^ p.c.446a	harvesters, binding attachments and reapers.. Traction ditching machines (not being ploughs) adapted for tile drainage on farms, valued by retail at not more than three thousand dollars	15 p.c.	17^ p.c.	17H P.c.each, and complete parts thereof for repairs..	Free.	Free.	Free.453a 460	Electrical dental engines	
sundry articles of metal as follows, when for use exclusively in mining or metallurgical operations, viz.:-Diamond drills, not including the motive power; coal cutting machines, except percussion coal cutters, coal augers and rotary coal drills; coal heading machines; core drills; miners' safety lamps and parts thereof, also accessories for cleaning, filling and testing such lamps, electric or magnetic machines for separating or concentrating iron ores; furnaces for the smelting of copper, zinc and nickel ores; converting apparatus for metallurgical processes in metals, copper plates, plated or not; machinery for extraction of precious metals by the chlorination or cyanide processes; amalgam safes; automatic ore samplers; automatic feeders; retorts; mercury pumps; pyrometers; bullion furnaces amalgam cleaners; blast furnaces blowing engines; and integral parts of all machinery	15 p.c.	27^ p.c.	27H[Mr. W.	mentioned in this item	
T. White.]	Free.	Free.	Free.
Tarifi
Items.
471a
478a
Rolled round wire rods in the coil, of iron or steel not over three-eighths of an inch in diameter, when imported by wire manufactur ers for use in making wire in the coil in their own factories	Per ton-
Rolled round rods in the coil, of iron or steel, whether annealed or cleaned, or not when imported by manufacturers of chain for use only in their own factories in the manufacture of chain	per ton.
Iron or steel bands, strips or sheets, number fourteen gauge or thinner, coated, polished, or not, and rolled iron or steel sections, not being ordinary square, flat or round bars, when imported by manufacturers of saddlery hardware and hames for use exclusively in the manufacture of such articles in their own factories	
494a
533a
543
546 548a 575
Iron tubing, brass covered, not over three inches in diameter, and brass trimmings, not polished, lacquered or otherwise manufactured, when imported by manufacturers of iron or brass bedsteads for use exclusively in the manufact-ture of such articles in their own factories..
Cork slabs, boards, planks and tiles produced from cork waste or granulated or ground cork
Garnetted wool -waste in the white when imported by manufacturers of woolen goods for use exclusively in their own factories	
Jute or hemp yam, plain, dyed or coloured, when imported by manufacturers for use exclusively in their own factories for weaving purposes, or for insulating wire, or for the manufacture of hammocks and twines	
Linen yarn when imported by manufacturers of towels, damask, or seamless linen fire hose duck, for use exclusively in t,he manufacture of such articles in their own factories...
Jute and jute butts; jute cloth or jute canvas, as taken from the loom, not coloured, cropped mangled, pressed, calendered, nor finished in any way	
Jute cloth or jute canvas, uncoloured, not further finished than cropped, bleached, mangled, or calendered	
Twine or yarn of paper when imported by manufacturers of furniture for use only in their own factories in the manufacture of furniture..
Embroideries, n.o.p., lace, n.o.p., braids n.o.p., tapes of cotton or linen not over one and one-quarter inches in width, not includ ing measuring tape lines; fringes, n.o.p., cords; elastic, round or flat; garter elastic; tassels; handkerchiefs of all kinds; lace collars and all manufactures of lace; nets and nettings of cotton, linen, silk or other material n.o.p.; shams and curtains, when made up trimmed or untrimmed; corsets of all kinds, linen or cotton clothing, n.o.p	
tones..
British 'referential Tariff.	ntermediate Tariff.	General Tariff.$2 25	S3 50	$3 50$2_25	$3 50	$3 50Free.	Free.	Free.Free.	Free.	Free.20 p.c	30 p.c	30 p.cFree.	Free.	Free.Free.	Free.	Free.Free.	Free.	Free.Free.	Free.	Free.^ p.c.	10 p. c.	10 p.c.Free.	Free.	Free.25 p.c.	32^ p.c.	35 p.c.Free.	Free.	Free.Tariff Items.	-	British Preferential Tariff.	Intermediate Tariff.	General Tariff.651a	Buttons of vegetable ivory	per gross..	5 cents. 20 p. c.	5 cents. 30 p.c.	5 cents. 30 p.c.671a	Metal tips, studs and eyes adapted for the manufacture of corset clasps and, corset wires...	Free.	Free.	Free.692a	Articles presented from abroad in recognition of the saying of human life, unde r regulations by the Minister of Customs	Free.	Free.	
4. Resolved, that Schedule B to The Customs Tariff, 1907 be amended by striking thereout tariff items 1017 and 1019, the several enumerations of goods respectively, and the several rates of drawback of customs duties set opposite each of the said items, and to provide that the following items, enumerations, and rates of drawback of customs duties be inserted in said Schedule B :	'
Item No.	Goods.	When subject to Drawback.	Portion of duty (not including special duty or dumping duty) payable as Drawback.1,017	Lap welded tubing of iron or steel, not less than foiir inches in dia-	When used in casing water, oil and natural	meter, threaded and coupled or	natural gas under high pressure from	not.	gas wells to points of distribution..:	50 per cent.1,019	Bituminous coal	When imported by proprietors of coke ovens and converted at their coke ovens into coke for use in the smelting of metals from ores and in the melting of metals	99 per cent.1,021	Rolled round wire rods in the coil, of iron or steel, not over three-eights of an inch in diameter...	When used in the manufacture of galvanized iron or steel wire, curved or not, numbers nine, twelve and thirteen gauge, with variations from such gauges not exceeding four one-thousands of an inch	99 per cent.1,022	Charcoal	When used for the smelting of metals from ores	99 per cent.1,023	Rolled hexagon iron or steel bars...	When used in the manufacture of cold drawn or cold rolled iron or steel bars, or turned and polished shafting	99 per cent.1,024	Yarns composed in chief value of	When used in the manufacture of socks	wool, single, numbers thirty and finer, on mule cops, tubes or cones, or in hanks, dry spun on the French or Belgium systems, in white only, not doubled or twisted.	and stockings	99 per cent.
5. Resolved, that Schedule C (prohibited goods) to the Customs Tariff, 1907, shall be amended by adding the following:
1212. Aigrettes, egret plumes, or so called osprey plumes, and the feathers, quills, heads, wings, tails, skins, or parts of skins of wild birds either raw or manufactured; but this provision shall not come into effect until 1st January, 1915, and shall not apply to:
(a)	the feathers or plumes of ostriches;
(b)	the plumage of the English pheasant
and the Indian peacock;
CMr. W. T. White.]
(c)	the plumage of wild birds ordinarily
used as articles of diet;
(d)	the plumage of birds imported alive; nor
to- -
(e)	Specimens imported under regulations of
the Minister of Customs for any natural history or other museum or for educational purposes.
6. Resolved, that the foregoing provisions shall be held to have come into force on the seventh day of April, 1914, and to have applied to all goods imported or taken out of

warehouse for consumption on and after that day, and to have also applied to goods previously imported for which no entry for consumption was made before that day, except as othei-wise provided in the foregoing resolutions: Provided, nothwithstanding any increase in customs under the said resolution, that ali goods actually purchased on or before the sixth day of April, 1914, for importation into Canada, on evidence satisfactory to the Minister of Customs of the purchase having been so made, and all goods in warehouse in Canada on such day, if entered for duty after importation prior to the first day of July, 1914, may be entered at the rate of duty in force on the said sixth day of April, 1914.
Mr. Speaker, this is the third occasion upon which I have had the honour of presenting the Budget to the House, and I have again to express my most grateful thanks for the courtesy, attention and patience with which you have heard me.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Mr. Speaker, during the day the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance were good enough to agree to the adjournment of the debate this evening until to-morrow, if we upon this side of the House so desired, and I wish to acknowledge their courtesy in that regard. It has come to my attention, however, that a great number of hon. gentlemen upon this side of the House desire that the debate Shall be resumed, not to-morrow, but after the Easter holidays, upon a date to be fixed by the Government. In any event, the debate cannot be concluded before the adjournment on Wednesday of this week, and I think it would be just as well if the debate were adjourned at this 'stage, as to-morrow or the following day. Further, a great number of the members of the House who live at a distance from Ottawa, will be leaving tomorrow, and I imagine that there will be a very small attendance in the House. I trust, therefore, the Prime Minister will agree that the debate be adjourned this evening, to be resumed on, say, Thursday of next week.
It was suggested to me by the hon. member for St. Antoine (Mr. Ames) that, in the event of an adjournment this evening until next week, it would be but fair that the Prime Minister should be advised by the Opposition of any amendment contemplated to the resolution just moved by the Minister of Finance. I have conferred with the leader of the Opposition upon this point, and I am in a position to say that, in the event of such an adjournment being granted, he will be pleased to communicate the substance of any amendment which may be contemplated by the Opposition. 1 trust that my suggestion that the debate
be adjourned till Thursday of next week will be favourably received by the Govern ment.


Mr. SPEAKER:: I think it would not be quite regular to move that the debate be adjourned to any specific date.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I would move the adjournment of the debate.


Robert Laird Borden: I understand that it would not be very convenient for some hon. gentlemen on this side of the House who intend to speak immediately after my hon. friend (Mr. A. K. Maclean), to have the debate resumed upon the day which he suggests. The most we can do for the present is to agree to the motion for the adjournment of the debate. We will not ask my hon. friend to go on to-night, and we can discuss the other matter later.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned. SUPPLY.
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
Indians-Relief, medical attendance and medicines, Quebec, $10,200.
Mr. BE  LAND@: Has the minister special physicians to attend the Indians in Quebec, and, if so, who are they and what are their salaries?


Hon. W. J. ROCHE (Superintendent General of Indian Affairs):: The men on salary are Dr. Constantine, Pointe Bleue, $500; Dr. Claveau, Chicoutimi, $200; Dr. Allard, Urbain, $100; Dr. Wilson, Oka, $100; Dr. McDuff, Galops River, $200; Dr. McDougall, Seven Islands, $450; Dr. Boucher, Lorette, $700; Dr. Bosse, Ber-simis, $1,000; Dr. McCartney, Gaspe, $80. Other physicians are paid for attendance given to Indians, authorized by the agent according to a specified scale.


Charles Marcil: Is theTe a permanent
physician for the Restigouche reserve?


William James Roche: No.


Charles Marcil: What arrangement is
there at that place? It is a very large reserve.


William James Roche: No arrangement has yet been made for a permanent physician. Whenever a physician is required he is called in.


Charles Marcil: I understand that Dr. Pinault, the former physician, was summarily dismissed. He is one of the most

distinguished physicians in the province of Quebec, a former house surgeon of the hospital at Quebec. He was physician in charge of these Indians, but was summarily dismissed without investigation or a chance to say a word in his behalf, and a new medical man was appointed but refused to accept the position. Dr. Price, I think, was the man who refused. It was then passed over to Dr. Martin. I do not know who the physician is now, but I understand that the position is very unsatisfactory and may cost the department more than under the old system.


William James Roche: This is the first time this has been brought to my attention; it must have been before my time. However, 1 shall make inquiries. I have not had any personal complaint in regard to medical attendance there; but I understand that no appointment has been made.


Mr. BELAND:: Has the minister before him the total number of Indians in Quebec?	,


William James Roche: The number is 14,842.
Indians-Relief, medical attendance and medicines, Ontario, $6,975.


Henri Sévérin Béland: What is the number of Indians in Ontario.


William James Roche: 26,077.


Henri Sévérin Béland: A good many more than in Quebec.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Does the Department supply medicines for the Indians around Brantford?


William James Roche: No, they pay for their own medicines.
Mr. hESBITI: These are the backwoods'
fellows?


William James Roche: \es, who are not able to pay for themselves.
Indians, Ontario and Quebec-general legal expenses, $5,500.	6
Mr. iSiESBITT: What do you do with legal expenses for the Indians; do they go to law?	* s


William James Roche: Sometimes they are verv fond of it.


Wilfrid Laurier: I know that the department sometimes adjudicates on very important matters. Could the minister inform me of the present situation of the lawsuit between the Oka Indians and EMr. C. Marcil.]
the Seminary with regard to the title to their land?


William James Roche: It will be noticed that there is a decrease of $8,000 in this vote. That decrease is owing to the lawsuit to which the Ihon. gentleman referred. The case was carried to the Privy Council, and judgment given for the Seminary and against the Indians.


Wilfrid Laurier: Has any
action been taken since, or have the Indians accepted the decision and will they abide peaceably by it?


William James Roche: They have shown no disposition to abide peaceably by it. A deputation of Oka Indians was up to interview me, and we are now carrying on negotiations through the solicitor, Mr. Geoffrion, with a view to an amicable arrangement with the Seminary regarding certain land which the Indians are desirous of obtaining.


Charles Marcil: Will the minister give a list of the lawyers to whom money was paid last year?


William James Roche: G. C. Judd, $401; Mr. Geoffrion et al, $5,173; Chas. Russel & Company, London, England, $1,675; Smith, Markay et al, $3,142; G. Gaudet, $90; Morgan, Price & Company, $66.25; L. Cousineau, $410; J. C. Langlois, $118; John S. Fraser, $274; R. V. Lesueur, $1,278; Joseph G. Bayliss, $18.63; H. Williams, $55; F. W. Wilson, $442; Louis Boyer, K.C., $17.50.


Charles Marcil: Were	there no legal
expenses in the district of Gaspe at all?


William James Roche: No.


Charles Marcil: The rumour is revived
every year that owing to the proximity of the Restigouche reserve to the town of Campbellton it would be in the interest of the Indians to have the reserve removed to some other locality.


William James Roche: I understand that a sawmill firm wanted to secure a portion of the reserve for a planing mill, but the Indians have expressed their unwillingness to surrender.


Charles Marcil: A portion of the reserve is now held by the Baie des Chaleurs mill, and I understand that a proposal was made by another saw-mill firm to take the rest of the reserve. The department has refused I understand.


William James Roche: It has, because the Indians refused.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If the department decides to transfer a part of the reserve the minister will, of course, get the consent of the tribe. I read a letter in the House a few days ago from the chief of the Caughnawaga tribe and I think it would be well if the minister would make some reassuring statement in regard to that.


William James Roche: The department have no
authority to take away any property of the Indians without their consent. My hon. friend is referring to the letter the chief of the Caughnawaga tribe wrote in connection with amendment to the Act made in 1911 by my predecessor. Where land is required for public purposes it is secured, if not provided for by the expropriation provisions of the Indian Act, through the agency of the Exchequer Court which holds an inquiry as to the expediency of the sale. It allots a counsel to the Indians, hears evidence and then refers the matter to the Governor in Council who in turn refers it to Parliament. Parliament has to pass upon the sale before the lands are disposed of.


Charles Marcil: Was the application for
the Restigouche reserve made by an American or a Canadian company.


William James Roche: So far as we know, it was made by a Canadian company.


Charles Marcil: There is no intention on
the part of the minister to change the law with regard to getting the consent of these Indians?


William James Roche: No.


Wilfrid Laurier: What is the
object of the amendment to the Indian Act?


William James Roche: The Act at present provides that when an Indian reserve or part of a reserve is required adjacent to a city or town of 8,000 population or over the land can be secured by reference to the Exchequer Court. The amendment widens that, giving us power to secure lands whether adjacent to a city of 8,000 population or under.


Charles Marcil: Under that amendment
this reserve can be secured.


William James Roche: Not until the Exchequer
Court and Parliament pass upon it.


Charles Marcil: There is no procedure of that kind under way in this case?


William James Roche: No.
Indians, Ontario and Quebec-Eepairs to roads and drainage, $2,600.


Wilfrid Laurier: This sum is
for the usual drainage and road making,
I suppose? There are some reserves in the province of Quebec in which it is a constant complaint that the roads passing through the reserve are not kept in repair. In the Caughnawaga reserve, for instance, the roads are in a very bad condition and are a serious impediment to traffic. I do not know whether that matter has been called to the attention of my hon. friend.


William James Roche: One thousand dollars of
this vote will be spent on the road through the Caughnawaga reserve.


Charles Marcil: Is anything to be spent
on the Maria Teserve?


William James Roche: 
Charles Marcil: Is part of this money to be spent on the main highway in Restigouche or is it for a new road?
.Mr. ROCHE: It is to improve the existing road.


Charles Marcil: The presence of that sawmill on the Restigouche reserve has been a constant source of trouble between the proprietor of the mill and the Indians. During the time I had something to say in the matter I used to get a letter or two every week. The Indians were constantly complaining to the department on questions between the proprietors of the mill and themselves.


William James Roche: There are no complaints
now.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend was speaking of the Caughnawaga Indians reserve. I wish to thank him for what he did towards maintaining the little hospital down there. The ladies who devote themselves to the Indians hope that the amount will be increased a little next year.


Charles Marcil: Has the minister the
total amount spent for medical attendance on the Restigouche reserve?


William James Roche: Drs. F. J. Desmond, $10;
A. Martin, $208.50; L. G. Pinault, $37.25; J. Price, $13.


Charles Marcil: Does the minister not
think that the department and the Indians

would be better served if one doctor was appointed for each reserve, rather than having three or four doctors runing around from place to place.


William James Roche: Generally speaking I think it would be better, and I will make inquiries with a view to .adopting that suggestion.


Charles Marcil: I hope the minister will
see his way to reappointing Dr. Pinault, who is recognized as one of the best men, and he has certainly given satisfaction to the department in the past.
Indians, Ontario and Quebec-General expenses, $46,075.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: What is that item for?
Mr. ROCHE t From this vote the whole cost of the administration in Ontario and Quebec is paid in the various Indian agencies. The Indian reserve population is about 26,000.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: This is for officials?


William James Roche: Officials, office rent, travelling expenses and the general expenses in connection with the running of the various agencies.


Charles Marcil: Is any increase contemplated in the salaries of the Indian agents, school teachers, etc.?


William James Roche: Not in the main Estimates.
Indians, Nova Scotia-Salaries, $1,600.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: What are these salaries for?


William James Roche: These salaries are for the
agents in the various counties.


Alexander William Chisholm: Would the minister give the names of the agents?


William James Roche: The list is as follows:
1914-1915.
Geo. Hoyt, Annapolis	$ 50
R. A. Harris, Digby	 100
C. E. Beckwith, Kings	 100
C.	Harlow, Queens	 100
N. P. Freeman, Lunenburg	 100
D.	Chisholm, Halifax	 100
A. Wallace, Hants	 50
Joseph Stephens, Windsor, Hants... 50
R. H. Smith, Colchester	 50
J. A. Johnson, Cumberland	 100
Rev. J. D. McLeod, Pictou	 100
John Cameron, Antigonish and
Guysborough	 100
R. L. McDonald, Richmond	 100
Rev. D. McPherson, Inverness. . . .	100
C. J. Sparrow, North Sydney and
Sydney	 100
Rev. D. J. McIntosh, Victoria.. . .	100
W. H. Whelan, Yarmouth	 50

John Hipson, Shelburne	 $ 50
A. R. McDonald, Eskasoni reserve,
Cape Breton county	 100


Mr. CARROLL:: What are the duties of
these agents?


William James Roche: They assist destitute Indians, see that they are supplied with provisions and look after the general administration of the Indian agencies.


Mr. STANFIELD:: How is it that in some counties they get $50 and in others $100?


William James Roche: In some agencies there are far more Indians than in others and considerable more work to do.


Mr. W. CHISHOLM:: Is that $100 a
month?


William James Roche: No, a year.


William Chisholm: When was Dr. J. J. Cameron appointed for Antigonish and Guysborough and whom did he succeed?


William James Roche: He succeeded Mr. W. C. Chisholm, who resigned a few months ago.


John Howard Sinclair: How many Indians are there is Nova Scotia and is the number increasing or diminishing?


William James Roche: They are just about holding their own. There are 2,018 in the province.


William F. Carroll: Is Dr. Sparrow, Sydney, medical doctor for the Indians there?


William James Roche: Yes.


William F. Carroll: Is he also Indian agent?


William James Roche: Yes.


William F. Carroll: Is that customary?


William James Roche: Yes, his predecessor was just the same.


William Chisholm: Who is the medical attendant for Antigonish and Guysborough, and when was he appointed?


William James Roche: W. F. McKinnon, salary $250.


William Chisholm: Who was the medical attendant appointed in the fall of 1911 and why were his services dispensed with?


William James Roche: I have not the information here regarding that, but I will let the hon. gentleman know later on.


William Chisholm: Will the minister bring down the information as to why the first appointee was Dr. J. J. Cameron, and why his services were dispensed with, and when?


Mr. ROSS:: I understand that the medical attendant on the Muncey agency has been changed since September 1911, and I would like to ask why that medical attendant was changed, and what rate the former medical attendant was paid, and what rate the present medical attendant is receiving.


William James Roche: I believe the medical man previously on that reserve was Dr. Mitchell.
I think his salary was $500. He has been succeeded by Dr. Wood, and I think his salary has been somewhat increased.


James Hamilton Ross: Is that the same Dr. Wood who was in charge of the patronage in West Middlesex?


William James Roche: No, I understand that Dr. Wood resigned any patronage that he may have had.


James Hamilton Ross: Can the minister inform me on that point?


William James Roche: No, I cannot.


James Hamilton Ross: I think it would be well for the Minister to look into that matter.


William James Roche: I know that he was informed by me that he would have to drop that part of the business.


James Hamilton Ross: If the minister will make inquiries he will find that Dr. Wood has been dispensing the patronage in that district in violation of the rule laid down by the Government that a public official shall not take part in politics. It will be found that he has been guilty, while being a servant of this Government, of being an active participant in political matters, and that therefore, according to the rule which has been laid down, he merits dismissal from his position. I do not think that the information the minister has given me is quite correct in regard to the doctor whom Dr. Wood succeeded. I would like to know why Dr. Dewar was dismissed and why Dr. Wood succeeded him and whether there is any difference in their remuneration?


William James Roche: I understand that there were two medical men previously-Dr. Mitchell and Dr. Dewar. There were a great many complaints in as to the unsatisfactory service they were rendering.


James Hamilton Ross: In writing?


William James Roche: I am not sure whether they were in writing or not, but I am inclined to think that some complaints were made to me personally in regard to them.


James Hamilton Ross: If they were in writing will the minister lay them on the table?


William James Roche: Yes. They were succeeded by Dr. Wood.


James Hamilton Ross: What is the difference in remuneration?


William James Roche: Dr. Wood is getting $150 more than his predecessors.


James Hamilton Ross: Will the minister kindly verify that for me?


William James Roche: Yes.


William Chisholm: Is there any regulation which prevents an Indian agent himself supplying goods to the Indians and then charging them up to the Government?


William James Roche: The regulations of the
department do not permit an Indian agent to sell direct to the Indians himself, and to then be paid by the Government.


William Chisholm: Either directly or indirectly?


William James Roche: Yes.


James Hamilton Ross: What was the complaint
against Dr. Dewar and Dr. Mitchell?


William James Roche: I think the change took
place when I was not in the country, but I remember there was a Dr. Mitchell in western Ontario against whom complaints were made of inattention to his duty, and that he seldom responded to a call when he was sent for. Unless there are two doctor Mitchells there, this is the one.


James Hamilton Ross: What about Dr. Dewar?


William James Roche: I have no recollection at all about his case.


James Hamilton Ross: Was it because Dr. Dewar
was just charged with being a Liberal?


William James Roche: I do not know anything
about that case at all.


William F. Carroll: How many superintendents of Indian agencies are there in Nova Scotia?


William James Roche: Mr. Boyd is the only one.


William F. Carroll: Are all the Indian agents practically under his jurisdiction?


William James Roche: He has general supervision over all the agencies.


William F. Carroll: What repairs were done to the Indian council-house at Chapel Island in Richmond county, and what is the council-house used for?


William James Roche: The Indians for many
years past had a general council-house there, at which they met at least once a

year to hold a mission and
10 p.m. conduct their business. It was destroyed by fire, and they having no financial resources sufficient to build, we agreed, if they furnished the material, to supply them with skilled [DOT]labour, etc.


Mr.   BOSS@: Are the medical attendants of the Indians paid a fixed salary, and is there something extra allowed them in *case of epidemics?


William James Roche: The medical attendant is paid a fixed salary for normal attendance, but if there is an epidemic, or if he has heavy operations to perform, which cause abnormal conditions, an extra allowance is sometimes made.


Mr.   BOSS@: How much has Dr. Woods been paid since he was appointed by this Government as medical attendant to the Indians in Middlesex county?


William James Roche: I have not the information at hand.
Indians, N.S.-Belief and seed grain, $6,000.


Alexander William Chisholm: What is this money used for?


William James Roche: The greater part of this expenditure is for the relief of aged Indians, repairs to houses, and so on. Very little of it i,s used for seed grain.


John Howard Sinclair: How is the seed grain distributed?


Mr. ROOHE:: By the Indian agent, who recommends the distribution.
Indians, N.S.-To provide for the encouragement of agriculture, $1,000.


Alexander William Chisholm: How much is paid the teacher at Whycocomagh to teach the Indians how to cultivate the land?


William James Roche: I cannot find from the Auditor-General's Report that we paid him anything for that service last year.


William Chisholm: There is $1,000 for encouragement to agriculture and $1,500 for Indian agents, so that it wduld look as if the agents were the wards of the nation and not the Indians. If you are going to do anything serious towards encouraging the Indians to take an interest in farming, you will have to make a larger appropriation for the purpose than $1,000; you will have to give them implements in the first place. Tf you divide

$1,000 between the different agencies, it will amount to a very small sum for each. I think that vote should be increased.


William James Roche: Probably the Indians are so thrifty they do not require very much Government assistance in that line.


William Chisholm: Perhaps the minister thinks that the reduction in agricultural implements promised in the Budget speech to-day will enable them to get along without an increased grant.


William James Roche: I have here a list of their increased crops-5,510 bushels of potatoes, 178 bushels turnips, 620 bushels oats, 40 bushels barley, 12J bushels corn, 35 bushels beans, 53 bushels apples. So they are doing very well.
Indians, Nova Scotia-Medical attendance-and medicines, $5,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister please give the names of the doctors and their salaries?


William James Roche: Drs. J. A. McDonald, Richmond, $250; Geo. McNally, King's West, $200; A. M. Hebb, Lunenburg East, $50; C. S. Marshall, Lunenburg West, $60; H. N. McDonald, Whycocomagh Reserve, Inverness, $175; J. G. Macauley, Malagawatch Reserve, Inverness, $100; Hector A. Grant, Victoria, $325; C. J. Sparrow, Cape Breton, $350; W. F. McKinnon, Antigonish, $250; C. H. Morris, Martook, Hants Co., $75; J. McKenzie, Pictou, $200; R. Withers, Le-quille, Annapolis, $50; J. A. Sponagle, Middleton, $50; H. V. Kent, Colchester, $150; E. O. Hallett, Weymouth, Digby county, $100; C. C. Archibald, Bear River, $250; T. R. Ford, Milton, Queens county, $100; W. H. Cole, Bridgewater, Lunenburg,
$50; -. 

, Parrsborough, Cumberland,
$200; A. Culton, Shubenacadie, Hants, $150; W. B. Moore, Kings East, $200.


Mr. LAW:: Has any appointment been made in place of Dr. Millar, at Tusket in Yarmouth county? He resigned and went away?


William James Roche: I think Dr. Bethune was appointed in his place.


William John Macdonald: Is there any proposal to purchase any additional land in connection with the reserve at Pictou Landing?


William James Roche: No. I do not remember any such application.


William Chisholm: In some places,
particularly in Antigonish county, there

are Indian reserves on which the hay is let year after year. I had a question on the Order Paper earlier in the session whether it was proposed to let the Indian reserve at Heatlierton. I think the answer was that the matter was under consideration. I desire to know whether the minister will call for tenders or whether the agent will have the privilege of farming it out as he has done before?


William James Roche: I understand this is a small affair, but it is proposed to ask for tenders.
Indians, Nova Scotia-Repairs to roads and dyking, $600.


Alexander William Chisholm: Will the hon.
minister please state what amount is spent at the Indian reservation in Inverness county?


William James Roche: Malagawatch reserve,
$204.38; Middle River reserve, $1,999.93; Whycocomagh reserve, $101.61.


Alexander William Chisholm: Can the minister give me the names of those who supervised the work?


William James Roche: The Auditor General's
Report does not contain the names, but I can get them if the hon. gentleman desires it.	.


James Hamilton Ross: At what date was Mr. Woods informed that he would have to ' drop his connection with patronage?.'


William James Roche: I cannot remember the
date. But I remember that he wrote me that he was occupying a position with respect to party politics and asked my opinion as to his retaining it. I informed him that he must drop it, that no person occupying a position under the Government should have to do with party politics. And I understand he has followed that direction.


James Hamilton Ross: On the 8th of November, 1913, he wrote a letter asking that a certain postmaster be dismissed. So that in November last, Dr. Woods, while Indian medical attendant, was interested actively in politics, so actively that he was controlling the patronage in the district. If the minister wrote him to observe the rule against political partisanship and he did not observe that rule, I think that the minister should take means to enforce the law on the subject. Surely, the minister will see the propriety and necessity of such action.


William James Roche: That was nearly five months ago, * and I am sure that it was since that date that I first learned of the position he 157
held. Of course, as soon as it was brought to my attention-and I could not act any sooner-I gave him his instructions, and I am confident he has lived up to those instructions since that time.


James Hamilton Ross: The minister will let me know if it was really before that date ?


William James Roche: Yes.


Alexander William Chisholm: What provision has the minister made for the roads on the Whycocomagh reserve ?


William James Roche: It is expected to spend $300 there.


William Chisholm: There are two miles of road through this reservation and it is in very bad condition.
Indians, Nova Scotia-Rebuilding Indian council house, Chapel island, $2,500.


William F. Carroll: Will the minister advertise for tenders for this ?


William James Roche: We frequently put up these buildings by means of Indian labour and do not find it necessary to call for tenders when only a small amount is involved. We will consider what particular form this should take, but perhaps the most economical way will be to use Indian labour.


John Howard Sinclair: Is this the first time
that the department has built a council house for the Indians in Nova Scotia?


William James Roche: Probably it is the first
time, but the council house was burned down and inasmuch as the Indians have no funds of their own they cannot rebuild for themselves.


William F. Carroll: The only building that was burned down there, to my knowledge, was an old church.


William James Roche: I understand that there is a church at the same place; it is called Burnt church. I do not know whether or not it is utilized for church purposes.


William F. Carroll: If this vote is for the purpose of rebuilding the Indian chapel on Chapel island, the amount is not too large, but if it is for the building of an ordinary council house I think $2,500 is a rather large amount. You can build a magnificent residence in that part of the country for $2,500.


William James Roche: The whole of this amount may not necessarily be expended.
Inlians, New Brunswick-Repairs to roads, $450.
Air. A1ICHAUD: A piece of road called the main road runs along the Indian reser-



vation in the county in which I live, for a distance of a mile or a mile and a half. I would call the attention of the minister to the fact that the money which is voted comes along in the month of July or August when it is practically too late to be of any real benefit. If we could get it in May or early in June so that it could be spent in the early part of the season it would be of much greater benefit.


William James Roche: Of what reserve is the hon. gentleman speaking?


Mr. MICHAUD:: The Edmonton reserve. We get money from the department every second year, as a rule; we should have it every year. The municipalities spend a certain amount of money on this road, but we can get no assistance from the province, and early in the spring and well into the summer the road is usually in a very bad condition.
Indians, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories-Dive stock, $9,480.


Mr. WARNOCK:: What is this item for?


William James Roche: Pure bred livestock.


David Warnock: On the Peigan reserve during the last two or three years a large number of the mares and stallions belonging to the Indians have been destroyed because of their having contagious diseases, and compensation has been paid by the Government. Does that money pass into the hands of the Indians, or into the hands of the Indian agent in trust?


William James Roche: It is paid to the Indians through the agent.


David Warnock: Some of these animals are owned by the Indians, and others are owned by the department. In the case of their being owned by the department, I presume the money compensation made in such instances is reinvested in stallions for the use of the Indian reserve?


William James Roche: The Indians have the privilege of utilizing this money in any way they choose, and they can utilize it by reinvesting it, if they so desire, in the purchase of other animals..


David Warnock: But not necessarily?


William James Roche: No.
Indians, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories.-Supplies for destitute Indians, $142,148.


Mr. DOUGLAS:: This is a large item;
will the minister give the committee .some explanation ?


William James Roche: The amount for Manitoba
is $33,062; for Saskatchewan. $109,086 and for Alberta $104,000.


James McCrie Douglas: What is a destitute
Indian?


William James Roche: One, who, by reason of
physical disability or other cause, is unable to provide for himself and must be cared for by tho department.
Indians, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and Northwest Territories-Hospitals, medical attendance, etc., $104,042.


James McCrie Douglas: Are these hospitals on
the Indian reserves?


William James Roche: Where there are Indian
hospitals they are located on reserves, bu|t some Indians are committed to other hospitals and we have to pay for attendance.


James McCrie Douglas: * I see by the Auditor's Report itemls of six hundred pounds of tea supplied by H. N. Bate and Sons of Ottawa for the Duck Lake agency in Saskatchewan and blankets supplied by G. M. Garland and Son of Ottawa. Then Green-shields of Montreal supply goods there. Is there not some mistake or why are these goods purchased at such a distance from the reserve?


William James Roche: These are all purchased
by tender and these are the lowest tenderers. When they are .purchased in the East they are delivered in Winnipeg where we have a warehouse, and we pay the freight from there to the reserves.
Indians, British Columbia*-Travelling expenses, $16,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Would the minister explain this?


William Roche: We have a number of
agents in British Columbia who travel a good deal inspecting. Then there is a good deal of travelling in connection with the maintenance of law and order, the prevention of intoxicants., etc. The distances in British Columbia are greater than in the other provinces and the travelling expenses arc heavier.


James McCrie Douglas: I understand that the
agent at the Hobbema reserve, Mr. Mann, was relieved of his office. He had been in the service thirty-five years, his health had broken down and I understood the department intended to show some special consideration to him.


William James Roche: Mr. Mann is a very old
official and has been retained in an advisory capacity at a salary of some $600.


James McCrie Douglas: That is all right.
Indians, British Columbia-Surveys, $10,000.


James McCrie Douglas: What is meant by surveys?


William James Roche: The surveying of Indian reserves.
Indian education, $948,115.


Alexander William Chisholm: Who is the Indian teacher at Malagawateh reserve, Nova Scotia?


William James Roche: I am not able to give the information just at the moment. I understand the school is closed at the present time.


Alexander William Chisholm: Was there a
teacher there last season?


William James Roche: I can get the information for my horn, friend later on.


Alexander William Chisholm: I will come to the rescue of the minister. My information is that a young Indian teaches there and I would like to know whether he has the necessary qualications.


William James Roche: I will get the information.


William F. Carroll: I would like to refer to a matter that has been brought up in this House before. I refer to the teacher at St. Peter's. Provincial inspector of schools, Mr. T. J. McNeil, refused to visit or have anything to do with the school on the ground that the teacher was not qualified. This young man was appointed after Miss Devereaux's dismissal and I would like to know whether he has the necessary qualifications now.


William James Roche: I cannot tell the hon. member.


William F. Carroll: It is a rather peculiar state of affairs if we are to pass estimjates for Indian education all over the country without being in a position to know whether the teachers are qualified. I think the minister should be in a position to tell me whether licensed teachers or backwoodsmen are teaching the children in the province of Nova Scotia in which I am interested.


William James Roche: I understand that no
teacher is employed in any school unless he is properly qualified.


William F. Carroll: Last year it was proved to the hilt in this House that the young
man succeeding Miss Devereaux was not qualified under the Provincial Education A>ct of Nova Scotia.


William James Roche: I 'have a hazy recollection of having read the papers in connection with that and of the discussion that took place. I understand that Miss Devereaux was dismissed for very strong reasons, opening school after ten o'clock in the morning-


William F. Carroll: I am not finding fault with her dismissal, but with the fact that the person appointed in her stead was not qualified. The provincial inspector of schools refused to visit the school on that account. Has the department seen to it that that school has now a qualified teacher ?


Alexander William Chisholm: I think the minister will find he has something to attend to with respect to the qualification of teachers for Indian schools. It is all very well to say that a teacher is qualified because somebody else says so, but there are certain qualifications required by the Provincial Education Acts, and the minister cannot hope to have Indian schools in their proper condition unless he sees that every teacher possesses the recognized qualifications. I cannot understand how this Malagawateh teacher can have the qualifications. I had the opportunity of recommending a couple of men myself as teachers at Indian schools, but I took very great care that the persons I recommended were qualified under the provincial law.


William James Roche: I understand that teachers are appointed on the recommendation of the Indian agents and inspectors. Personally, I am not aware of any complaints having been made to the department with regard to the qualifications of those teachers, except the case that came up last year, and I am not sure whether that particular teacher is still employed. Perhaps he is better qualified by this time. It is not so very unusual a thing to have an Indian teacher.


Alexander William Chisholm: I quite recognize that. I am not reflecting on his appointment because he is an Indian, but I know this man very well, and I can hardly see how he could possess the qualifications. That is just the point. Men are sent out to teach without the necessary license. It is quite possible that that may be done successfully in some cases, but it is opening the door to a very dangerous practice.
It is quite possible that politics may enter into this thing and that an inspector may

be induced to recommend a person who lias not the necessary qualifications, but if that practice is to be followed there will be a great deal of trouble.


William Roche: We have adopted a rule to have qualified teachers wherever possible, but in some cases we are not able to get qualified teachers for Indian schools, then we get the best qualified person we can.


James McCrie Douglas: How is this money distributed between the provinces ?


William Roche: Ontario, $126,825; Quebec, $12,040; Nova Scotia, $5,125; New Brunswick, $6,525; Prince Edward Island, $400; Manitoba, $249,280; Saskatchewan, $157,095;-Alberta, $138,175; Northwest Territories, $18,100; British Columbia, $216,800; Yukon, $9,750; generally, $8,000.


Mr. SINCLAIE:: How many teachers are employed on the staff, and what grades do they teach?


William Roche: There are 249 day schools, 58 boarding schools, and 19 industrial schools, or a total of 326.


James McCrie Douglas: Has industrial school education proved satisfactory?


William Roche: In some places very satisfactory.


James McCrie Douglas: It is a most expensive system of education, is it not?


William Roche: It is a somewhat expensive method, but it is very useful in teaching the Indians to better their position and to fit them for various occupations.


James McCrie Douglas: The school at Elkhorn appears to be doing good work. If more of that type of school were established, you could probably do away with some of these day schools. The industrial schools might require more highly paid teachers because they have to be specialists in their way. The boys are fitted for work that will bring them good wages if they wish to follow any particular occupation, and the girls are taught sewing and house work.


William Roche: Elkhorn is the model of all the industrial schools.


William F. Carroll: Would the minister get me the information I asked for in reference to the teacher at St. Peter's? Personally, I have no interest in the matter, but I have been asked to mention it to the minister.


William Roche: I have made a note of it.

Indians-A. J. Boyd, inspector of Maritime provinces, $1,600; timber inspector and valuator, $1,200.


William F. Carroll: What are the duties of the timber inspector?


William Roche: A. J. Boyd is the name of the inspector, and he is the superintendent for New Brunswick and the other Maritime provinces. He has charge of all the agencies. The timber inspector and valuator is Mr. George Shaw, of Thessalon, and he receives $1,200. There are about 400 lots unsurrendered and unsold in the Indian lands on the north shore of Lake Huron, and Mr. Shaw's duty is to value the timber on the lots disposed of.
Payment to Indians surrendering their lands, under provisions of section 70, of the Indian Act, which will afterwards be repaid from the avails of the land, $50,000.


John Ewen Sinclair: What lands are referred to there?	[DOT]


William Roche: When we ask the surrender of any land under the Indian Act, the Indians are entitled to fifty per cent of the proceeds of the sale, and this is the appropriation out of which that amount is paid.


James McCrie Douglas: Could the minister tell me whether any lands will be sold in Alberta this coming year?


William Roche: There have been some surrenders near Calgary, on the Sarcee, but we have not decided as to when the sale shall take place.


John Ewen Sinclair: What is the estimate by which the minister arrives at $50,000.


William Roche: This is the item which ha3 been voted year after year.


John Ewen Sinclair: Do I understand that this is a fund to be at hand when it is wanted for - the purpose of paying for Indian lands that are sold.


William Roche: It is for the purpose of
advancing cash payments to the Indians at the time of surrender.
Relief to destitute Indians in remote districts, $35,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What do you call
remote districts?


William Roche: In the northern territories, such as Ungava and the Mackenzie Basin.
Indians-To prevent spread of tuberculosis,


Alexander William Chisholm: What is being done to prevent the spread of tuberculosis?


William James Roche: This vote is to provide
hospital treatment for those who can avail themselves of it, methods of sanitation, the destruction of infected houses and the re-building of others to combat the spread of the disease. Wq intend to give rather more attention to this phase of the work in future than we have in the past. We have had a number of complaints that tuberculosis is very prevalent on some of the reserves, and we are endeavouring to teach the Indians the necessity for sanitation with a view of stamping out this disease.


William Chisholm: Is tuberculosis supposed to be decreasing among the Indians? We are told that the Indians are peculiarly the victims of this disease.


William James Roche: It has not decreased, I am sorry to say.


Rodolphe Lemieux: While the population is increasing.


William James Roche: Very little.
Grant to assist Indian Trust Fund Account $310-Suppression of liquor, $6,000.


William F. Carroll: What is this for?


William James Roche: This is intended to assist the Indian Trust Fund, which receives credit of a moiety of the fines imposed and bears the expenditure of preventive, detective and police service in carrying out the law. and in preventing the illegal sale of liquor to the Indians.


William F. Carroll: Is anything done by the department to prevent the sale of liquor to Indians in the Maritime provinces?


William James Roche: The officials of the reserves attend to that.


William F. Carroll: Who looks after that in the city of Sydney?


William James Roche: The agent resides close to the reserve there.


William F. Carroll: I would not blame the
agent for not spending very much of his time endeavouring to detect those who sell liquor to the Indians. The situation in Sydney is peculiar. We are supposed to have prohibition, but, as a matter of fact, liquor is sold very openly, and unfortunately it is sold quite freely to the Indians. It is not a rare occurrence to see an Indian woman going around our streets drunk. Of course, the medical officer of the reserve cannot attend to that, but in a place like Sydney with a population of 20,000 and a large Indian
reservation nearby, I should think the department ought to pay some small salary to, say a police officer, to take a special interest in that particular phase of the Indian question. The Indians, unfortunately, become very fond of intoxicating liquor and are seriously injured in every way through its use. On the Malagawatch and Whycoeomagh reserves the danger is not so great because there is not such opportunity for the Indians on these reserves to obtain whisky. Those who sell liquor to Indians at Sydney are occasionally prosecuted, but the trouble is to find any officers who will take a special interest in enforcing the law.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 11 p.m.
Tuesday, April 7, 1914.