1914-02-03

APPOINTMENT OF OFFICIALS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. SPEAKER informed the House that he had directed the Clerk of the House to lay upon the table his recommendation and the report of the Clerk in regard to the promotion in grade of Mr. A. E. Horton, Clerk of the Sessional Papers and of the Joint Committee on the Printing of Parliament.
Mr. BORDEN moved:: That the recommendation of His Honour the Speaker laid upon the table of the House on Thursday, the 22nd day of January, respecting the appointment of Mr. Francis H. Gisborne as parliamentary counsel, the promotion in grade of Mr. A. G. Troop of the Law Branch, of the appointment of Mr. J. L. Godwin as assistant in the Votes and Proceedings Office, and of the appointment of Mr. Joseph Smith as chief of stenographers to members, be concurred in, the
salary attached to the promotion of Mr. A. G. Troop and the appointments of Messrs. Godwin and Smith to begin as of the first day of the present session of Parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day being called:
Mr. LEMIEUX:: I have a question to
direct to the Postmaster General with reference to the post office in the House of Commons, although perhaps the matter does not come directly under his control. The hon. gentleman must have received within the last few days complaints from some hon. members that obscene literature is being distributed in the boxes of the members, and that without any stamp and without any frank. I know the Postmaster' General is not responsible, but I point out to him that the distribution of obscene literature in such a manner is very objectionable. I do not know how it is introduced into the post office boxes, but I am quite sure, Mr. Speaker, that if you saw some of the leaflets which have been distributed recently, you would consider them very objectionable.


Mr. PELLETIER:: The post office in the House of Commons is under the direction of Mr. Speaker, and not under the control of my department. In the Post Office Department, even when obscene literature is stamped, we always stop it passing through the mails. So far as the post office in the House of Commons is concerned, we may rest assured, Mr. Speaker, that you will attend to this matter.


Mr. SPEAKER:: This is the first I have
heard of this matter, and I shall take a very early opportunity of instructing the postmaster of the House of Commons with*
regard to it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.



PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND RAILWAY.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Mr. Borden for Committee of Supply:
Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: I wish again to call the attention of the Prime Minister and of the Minister of Railways to the grievance of which I complained on Friday last. From the remarks of the Minister of Railways I would gather that he is not quite familiar with the increased rates and the local conditions on the Prince Edward Island railway. Of course I am not surprised at that. When I mentioned that the rate of freight

on cordwood for a short distance was $7 a car, he seemed to think it was not very large. The fact is that the capacity of the cars on the Prince Edward Island railway is only about half as great as the capacity of the cars on the Intercolonial railway. Taking that fact into consideration the hon. minister will see that the charges on the main line of the Intercolonial would be about $12 to $14 per car. The rate in my province is prohibitive and is not in the interest of the railway. There are similar rates on lumber of all kinds. From the letter which I read on Friday last, it will be seen that the rates on many other articles are prohibitive.
I have been informed by gentlemen supporting the Government that apparently it is of little use bringing matters of this kind to the notice of the management at Moncton; that they do not seem to take seriously suggestions from business men. So far as the management in Prince Edward Island is concerned, it does not seem to have any power at all.
The Prime Minister will remember that before the last election, in the discharge -of his duty as leader of the Opposition, he came to our province and sympathized with the people there with reference to the very great difficulties they had in matters of .transportation. He certainly made statements to the effect that if he came into power he would have some remedy applied, and no one understood him to say that if he *came into power the rates would be increased. I am sure that the Prime Minister appreciates tne responsibility of any statement that he might have made under such circumstances ancL that he would not wish to mislead the people. This matter is more serious than the Minister of Railways or the Prime Minister appears to think. I am surprised that the members for Prince Edward Island supporting the Government are not pressing this matter more strenuously.
Most of the articles transported over the Prince Edward Island railway are not handled by the railway officials at all; they are loaded and unloaded by the people. Mixed freight and passenger trains run anyhow, whether freight is offered or not, and it would be very little extra expense to the railway to haul these cars which are loaded and unloaded by others. If the railway is to be of any service to the people, this matter should receive some *consideration from the Government. It may seem a small matter among the many (subjects that come before the Prime Minis-

ter, but I would again ask him at least to look into it.


Mr. COCHRANE:: I think the hon. gentleman is trying to mislead the people when he makes the statement that the cars on the Prince Edward Island railway do not carry over half what the cars on the main line do. This, I say, is not true, more than that, the hon. gentleman has never told the House and the country that we have cut out the third rate for the ferry across. This has never been done before, and is more in the interest of the people of Prince Edward Island than anything else we can do, until we get the ferry established. He has brought forward only one instance in which he says there is a hardship. In my opinion, he has not made out his case, because I know that the cars on the Prince Edward Island railway carry more than half what the cars on the main line do. If he has any other instances to give, I shall be glad to instruct the management to look into them.


James Joseph Hughes: Will the minister tell me the capacity of the cars on the Prince Edward (Island railway and the capacity of the cars on the Intercolonial railway? Then wre shall know whether my statement is true or not.


Francis Cochrane: You made the state ment.	*



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply, Mr Blondin in the Chair.
Civil Government

Department of Customs, $330,987.50.
["I think that my hon. friend is absolutely right. Whether the decision is right or not, the court should be so conducted that there would not be any ground given for a grievance in regard to the finding of the court, and it seems to me that in cases of that sort, if the Wreck Commissioner is unable to speak the French language, he should take pains to have associated with him nautical assessors who can. I know from my own experience at the bar how very unsatisfactory it is when you have to get the evidence of witnesses translated by means of an interpreter. I will call the attention of the Wreck Commissioner to the fact and give instructions that in future in cases of that sort, where the parties or witnesses do not speak the English language he shall have nautical assessors associated with him who know the French language.\nAt six o'clock the House resumed, and then took recess.", "The House resumed at eight o'clock."]
Mr. BUREAU:: Doe3 the item ' salaries ' cover the outside service?


Hon. J. D. REID (Minister of Customs):: No, this is civil government, inside service. There has been no change as compared with last year except that there will be two promotions, one man from second division, subdivision ' A ' to first division, subdivision ' B,' and one from second division, subdivision ' B ' to second division subdivision ' A.' In addition to this, the commissioner advises that it will be necessary to take on twenty-two new employees during the next fiscal year. In engaging these employees he applies to the Civil Service Commission and accepts the recommendation of that commission.


Mr. EMMERSON:: Will the hon. minister state who are to be promoted?


John Dowsley Reid: The details show that there will be two promotions. The Commissioner generally recommends certain gentlemen for promotion. It is not decided yet who will be promoted.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: I understand that in the appointment of these additional clerks the minister based his action upon the report of the Commissioner of Customs, he himself taking the responsibility as to whether or not he should accept the advice of the commissioner. Under the circumstances, I think that my hon. friend ought to lay before the House the report of the commisioner, so that we may know the reasons which prompted him to come to the conclusion that such an extraordinary increase in the number of clerks is necessary -because twenty-two is a very extraordinary increase. We will then be in a position to discuss whether or not the reasons given are sound or unsound, adequate or inadequate.


John Dowsley Reid: I have no objection whatever to bringing down the report as requested by my right hon. friend.


Mr. MURPHY:: When the hon. gentleman brings down his information, I should like to know what that position is in subdivision ' B ' of the first division. There ip an increase there.


Rodolphe Lemieux: A friend of mine in
Montreal, a wine importer, wrote me the other day complaining about the blank forms used in the custom house at Montreal. He said that certain blank forms which have to be sent back to France are printed in English only, and, as in many cases the exporters do not understand English, much inconvenience results to both exporter and importer. I am quite sure that this is only an oversight on the part of my hon. friend, and that he will remedy the matter by giving the proper instructions to the customs authorities to have the blanks in question printed in both languages.


John Dowsley Reid: It has always been the
practice, so far as I can learn, to print the blanks in English. If we were to print them in French, we would probably have to have them printed in other languages, say German or Italian, and if this were done we would be unable to keep our files in proper shape.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend misunderstands me. I am not asking that the forms be printed in German. Russian 28
or any other foreign language. My hon. friend knows that, generally speaking, all blank departmental forms are printed in both French and English. This is a matter not of favour, but of right, and I would ask my hon. friend to see that it is attended to.
Item stands.


Mr. HAZEN:: Perhaps I might be pardoned for asking permission to correct a statement I made last night in regard to the transportation of fish from the Maritime provinces to Montreal. I am reported in the unrevised ' Hansard ' as having said:
Now, a car is sent forward every day attached to an express train.
And further down I am reported to have
said:
We have provided for this car attached to an express train every day.
Apparently I must have made the statement, because I am reported in this way and my friends say that they so understood me. If I did make that statement, I did not intend to make it, and it was not correct. The statement I meant to make was that a cold storage express car was sent forward every Saturday. It is clear that this is the statement I intended to make from a subsequent passage in the report of my speech, in which I said:
A further arrangement was entered into last year with the express companies and the Intercolonial whereby a cold storage express car for the transportation of fish leaves Mulgrave for Montreal on Saturday of each week. Shipments from Halifax are taken on at Truro.
That was the statement I intended to make, but apparently, through inadvertence, I did not make that statement. I am not complaining of an incorrect report, as my friends say I did say what I am reported to have said, but I intended to say Saturday. At the time I was speaking from a report of the Superintendent of Fisheries in which the word Saturday was used. I desire to correct the mis-statement at the earliest opportunity.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: We are to understand, then, that there is really no change in the arrangement for the transportation of fish?


John Douglas Hazen: The change is that an arrangement was made for an express car having cold storage facilities attached to an express train to leave Mulgrave every Saturday night so that the fish would arrive in Toronto every Monday morning.


John Howard Sinclair: On every express train that leaves Halifax on Saturday night?


John Douglas Hazen: It leaves Mulgrave every Saturday night.


John Howard Sinclair: There seems to be a misunderstanding about it among the fishing people.


John Douglas Hazen: The arrangement is described in this memorandum:
The uepartment felt that as it had shown the railways and express companies that the business can be made a big one, they should do their part in ottering further facilities. It, consequently, took up with the express companies and the Intercolonial railway, the question of placing refrigerator express cars at the disposal of the shippers. After much negotiation an agreement was entered into with the express companies and the railway, whereby a cold storage express car is placed at the disposal of the shippers from Mulgrave and Halifax one day each week. The car leaves Mulgrave on Saturdays, and at Truro, shipments from Halifax and other points along the Halifax and Southwestern railway are placed in it. It then proceeds to Montreal by the Maritime Express. The companies agreed to accept as a minimum carload for this car ten thousand pounds, instead of twenty thousand pounds. The department guarantees that the earnings will be at least those ten thousand pounds. Only on a few occasions since it was inaugurated in August last, have the shipments been below the minimum.
This car reaches Montreal Sunday night in time to connect with the Grand Trunk for Toronto, so that shipments can be removed from it and sent in ordinary express cars to Toronto which will reach the latter point Monday morning. Negotiations are being continued and it is anticipated that during the coming summer the arrangement will be extended so as to run through cold storage express ears from the Atlantic coast to Toronto, as well as to Montreal.


Mr. MARTIN (Translation):: I want to know if the Estimates are printed in French, as I could not obtain a copy.


John Douglas Hazen: I understand that the
Estimates are printed in French.


William Melville Martin: That is what they said to me-that they are not printed in French.


John Douglas Hazen: The Clerk informs me that he has sent a boy up to make inquiries about the matter, and I shall have the information for my hon. friend directly.
Maintenance and repairs to Dominion steamers and ice-breakers, $1,000,000.


Mr. CARROLL:: I notice by the Nova
Scotia press that yesterday the ice-breaker Stanley was proceeding to Sydney harbour to keep the lower part of Sydney harbour which would give access to the coal company's and steel company's wharfs open.
[Mr. Hazen.J
I would ask if this is correct and whether the boat is to be stationed there all winter.


John Douglas Hazen: She could not be stationed there all winter as she has other work to do. She was sent there, as was done in previous seasons, and the report received at the department this morning was that the Stanley had done the work she was sent to do and that the harbour is now open. As far as possible we keep the harbour open because we realize the great advantage of doing so in the case of a harbour doing such a large business as Sydney does.


William F. Carroll: I would point out to the minister that while it is very well to have a steamer go there and open the harbour still, unless she is in the immediate vicinity of the harbour all the time, the work done may not be of much value because the harbour might freeze up again and unless the boat is very near she could not re-open it.


John Douglas Hazen: We do the best we can. The steamer's headquarters are at Halifax. They were at one time at St. John, but an arrangement was made having regard to this ice breaking to have her at Halifax so that she would be nearer the ports.


William F. Carroll: Both Mr. McKenzie and myself have in our humble way been in-insisting upon the department having a permanent boat there. This is a harbour in which an immense business is carried on, and we would like to have an icebreaker there all the time during the winter season. The Stanley is not required in Halifax harbour as an icebreaker in the winter time, and I hope my hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) will correct me if I am wrong in that, but I think I am right. Why should not the Stanley be stationed at Louisburg which is open the year around and then she would be in a position to get into Sydney harbour whenever required. It is incumbent upon the department to give us an icebreaker in that part of the country.


John Douglas Hazen: I know my hon. friend and his colleague discussed this matter before, and I am in sympathy with him. I think I pointed out to the House before that a new icebreaker will be available in a short time on the St. Lawrence which may release some of the icebreakers there; and when the car ferry from Prince Edward Island to the mainland is running the icebreakers there will be able to give a more satisfactory service than at present.


Charles Murphy: Is it under this item,
that my hon. friend provides the funds for the experiments that are to be carried out under the direction of Professor Barnes of McGill University?


John Douglas Hazen: No, that is under the vote of Aids to Navigation which we will reach later.


Charles Murphy: When it is reached will my hon. friend be good enough to give the committee information as to the success of those experiments?


James Joseph Hughes: I would like to ask the minister whether the Stanley or some other boat will make any trips to the Magdalen Islands this winter. I may say that before leaving home to attend the session, I received letters from cerain parties in the Magdalen Islands asking me to bring this matter to the notice of the department and to get the information. For some years past, occasional .trips have been made by the Stanley or some other boat to the great advantage of the people living there, and I think if a trip or two could be made in the winter season and then again in March or April before navigation really opens it would be a great benefit to those people.


John Douglas Hazen: I may say that the Stanley has already made one trip this season to the Magdalen Islands, and we hope it may be possible to make another.
M. MARTIN (Translation): Mr. Chairman, I raise a point of order, I move that the vote stands, seeing that the estimates have not yet been distributed in French.


John Douglas Hazen: The clerk informs me that the printing in French is just about completed, and will be ready to-morrow.


William Melville Martin: We have not got it yet. We must have it.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know what the rule of the House is. I understand that my hon. friend objects to proceeding until the estimates are printed in French. That will cause considerable delay, but if my hon. friend still objects-


William Melville Martin: Yes.


John Douglas Hazen: We shall have to look up the rules of the House.


The CHAIRMAN:: I cannot see anything in the rules and regulation providing for the special case that is now raised, and I am informed by the Clerk of the House 26}
that this objection has never been raised in committee before. That is probably the reason why there is nothing in the rules concerning the point.


Mr. J. A. C. ETHIER (Deux-Montagnes) (Translation):: You are short of translators then.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: In this particular
instance, it is the death of the King's Printer that has somewhat disorganized the work in the printing bureau.
M. MARTIN:	For the benefit of the
members of this House that do not understand English I think that we should postpone the discussion of these estimates.
iflie CHAIRMAN:	I cannot maintain
the point of order raised by my hon. friend, considering that there is nothing in the rules to maintain the objection.


John Douglas Hazen: What is your ruling, Mr. Chairman?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: My ruling is that there
is no rule providing for the special case that is now raised.
M. MARTIN:	I appeal from your rulling, Mr. Chairman.


John Douglas Hazen: I understand that the appeal is not going to be pressed.


Mr. LAW:: I would like to call the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to the custom that has prevailed in his department, and under the late Government, of having the headquarters of the steamers at St. John, N.B. That has always seemed to me a very great mistake. I think some of the steamers should have their headquarters at Yarmouth or on the bay of Fundy. In the case of the recent wreck of the Cobequid, had one of the Government steamers been stationed at Yarmouth instead of at St. John, there is no doubt that the people could have been rescued without having to wait 36 hours. I cannot see that the expense would be heavier at Yarmouth than at St. John, I am sure there are many occasions during the winter time when a ship at Yarmouth would be very useful. Buoys are continually going adrift on the coast of Nova Scotia and it would be very convenient to have a boat there to locate them. I think it would be in the interests of the department and of the public to have one of those boats stationed at Yarmouth and the other stationed at St. John and I would recommend the minister to take this into consideration.

Will the minister say whether he will take it into conside ation?


John Douglas Hazen: I did not know that
my hon. friend expected an answer. Any suggestion made in good faith will of course be considered. I may say the reason why these steamers have been kept at St. John and Halifax is that one agency is at Halifax and the other at St. John and the steamers are naturally kept as far as possible at the points where the agencies are. But I may say to my hon. friend, that if there had been a steamer at Yarmouth I do not think the people on the Cobequid would have been rescued any earlier. I think some statement to that effect is made in the report of the Wreck Commissioner, filed yesterday afternoon. He stated that in view of the heavy seas running it is doubtful whether the people could have been taken off at an earlier time, even if the rescue boats had been there. They had to wait till the waves calmed down before they could proceed with the rescue work.


Bowman Brown Law: If one of the Government
boats had been able to lay by the Cobequid all night, it would certainly have been a great relief to the passengers knowing that some vessel was at hand. I still think it reasonable to ask that one of these steamers stationed at St. John or Halifax should be kept at Yarmouth.
There are many times, I know myself, when buoys go adrift, and word has to be sent to St. John and this boat brought away down to Yarmouth or down in the bay of Fundy before these buoys can be rescued, whereas if a steamer were lying at Yarmouth, if buoys got adrift or a vessel were wrecked, it would be right on the spot. This is a question that should receive the due consideration of the minister.


John Howard Sinclair: This is a very large item, and it would be interesting to the members of the committee to get some information from the minister. How many steamers are we supporting, and what proportion of this million is expended in repairs, and what proportion upon maintenance? A few years ago, when hon. gentlemen were on this side of the House, they laid down the rule that repairs to steamboats should be done by open contract and tender. It would be interesting to know whether they are carrying out that policy in practice. I would like the minister to give us some details in regard to this vote.
IMr. Law.]


John Douglas Hazen: The amount asked for is the same as last year. Of the steamers whose operating expenses are paid out of this vote twelve are in commission during the whole year, as follows: Aberdeen, Champlain, Earl Grey, Estevan, Lady Grey, Lady Laurier, Lansdowne, Minto, Montcalm, Montmagny, Newington and Stanley. The others are in commission during a part of the year. I will give the name of each steamer, with the expenditure upon each for all purposes during the year. It is as follows:
Steamer, Service and Expenditure.
Aberdeen, lighthouse and buoy service,
St. John	$53,500
Belleehasse, ship channel, lighthouse
and buoy. Prince Edward Island ..	12,200
Champlain, ferry Riviere Ouelle and
Murray Bay	 45,500
Dollard, lighthouse and buoy, Montreal. 39,500 Druid, lighthouse and buoy, Quebec . .	36,500
Earl Grey, Prince Edward Island and
mainland, winter	 94,600
Estevan, lighthouse and buoy, British
Columbia	 42,000
Frontenae, ship channel	 16,700
Lady Grey, ship channel	 40,000
Lady Laurier, lighthouse and buoy, N.S. 57,600 Lambton, construction, Great Lakes ..	15,500
Lansdowne, lighthouse and buoy, St.
John	 43,500
Minto, winter mail service, Prince Edward Island	 63,500
Montcalm, lighthouse and buoy, Quebec,
and ice-breaking	 97,000
Montmagny, lighthouse and buoy, Quebec and Nova Scotia	 50,500
Newington, lighthouse and buoy, British Columbia	 22,500
Reserve, lighthouse and buoy, Prescott. 11,000
Rouville, construction, Quebec	 14.500
Scout, lighthouse and buoy, Prescott. .	13,400
Shamrock, lighthouse and buoy, Montreal district	 16,500
Simcoe, lighthouse and buoy, Great
Lakes	 34,500
Stanley, lighthouse and buoy, Nova
Scotia	 52,800
Verchdres, construction, Montreal district	 8,700
Quadra, lighthouse and buoy, British
Columbia	 40,600
Total	$940,600
It would be somewhat lengthy to give it,
but I have a statement showing in detail the expenditure on each vessel for salaries and wages, fuel, board, supplies for the deck and engine, repairs to hull, machinery and miscellaneous expenses, including uniforms.


John Howard Sinclair: How much was spent on repairs?


John Douglas Hazen: I will give the expenditure for repairs on each vessel. It is as follows:

Aberdeen.. .. Champlain.. Dollard.. ..
Druid	
Earl Grey.. . Lady Grey.. Lady Laurier Lansdowne. .
Mlnto	
Montcalm. . . Montmagny .. Newington.. .
Quadra	
Stanley

1.500 5 ono
8.000
In some cases where it is possible to do eo tenders are asked for these repairs and in eases where the repairs are of such a character that the officials of the department are unable to make proper specifications on which tenders are to be based, tenders are not called for.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Were tenders
asked for the repairs to the Aberdeen which amounted to over $7,000?


John Douglas Hazen: Will the hon. gentleman
pardon me? I am a little in error. These are the sums that we are estimating this year for repairs and so on. The hon. gentleman asked for the figures for last year. The present year does not conclude until the 31st March, so that I have not the details.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I mean for 1913.


John Douglas Hazen: I presume that they would appear in the Report of the Department. I will find them for my hon. friend. There should be no trouble in getting those, but the present year being uncompleted, I cannot give them.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I am speaking of the year ended March 31, 1913.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister mentioned a number of cases in which repairs had been made. Can he tell us in how many cases tenders were asked for?


John Douglas Hazen: These are only the Estimates for the coming year. They are based on what it has cost for repairs in previous years. The officials of the department make an estimate having regard to the condition of the ships and to what the repairs have cost in previous years.


John Howard Sinclair: Are there public notices inviting tenders?


John Douglas Hazen: There are in some cases
and in other cases there are no public notices.


John Howard Sinclair: How is that done?


John Douglas Hazen: It is done by circulars sent by the department to different people who are known to be in this line of work asking what they will undertake the work for.


John Howard Sinclair: Is that confined to one side of politics?	[DOT]


Rodolphe Lemieux: Have you the tender
list?


John Douglas Hazen: I will be very glad to let the hon. gentleman see the list.


John Howard Sinclair: Can we get the list of parties to whom the circulars are sent?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, there is no trouble in getting information of that sort.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Did the hon. gentleman mention the steamer Hudson?


John Douglas Hazen: No; these are the items of the Marine Department, but later we will come to the Fisheries Department. The Hudson is a fisheries patrol boat and any appropriation for a fisheries patrol boat would be under the fisheries items.
Mr. EMA1ERSON:	It says ' Dominion
steamers.'


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, but this is under the heading * Ocean and River Service,' and this has reference to the Marine branch of the Department and not to Fisheries.


Wilfrid Laurier: Did I understand the minister to say that the Rouville was being built in Quebec?


John Douglas Hazen: No, the Rouville is a boat that was built some time ago. It is in the service now.


Wilfrid Laurier: That
4 p.m. it was undergoing repairs then?


John Douglas Hazen: The Rouville is one of those boats the repairs and maintenance of which are included in the item under consideration and the estimated amount required for the Rouville next year is $14,500 made up as follows: Salaries and wages, $7,200; fuel, $3,200; board, $2,600; miscellaneous, including uniforms, $2,500.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Has there been any increase in the numbers of late? I understand that some time during November, or about the end of October last, a yacht was purchased either by the Department . of Marine and Fisheries or by the Department of Customs. The yacht is now at Prescott. I would like to know the name of the yacht and the object for which it was bought.


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot tell my hon. friend because it was not purchased by my department. I do not know anything about it. My hon. friend asked if there were any new boats. There is one, the Estevan, and another, the Bellechasse. The Bellechasse was built at Kingston and the Estevan was built at Collingwood and delivered on the seacoaat of British Columbia. It is used there now in the lighthouse and buoy service. The Bellechasse is used on the St. Lawrence.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend says that the Estevan was built at Collingwood. It is a sea-going vessel. What was the cost of the vessel, what firm constructed it and what is its draught?


John Douglas Hazen: It was built by the Collingwood Shipbuilding Company. I think the cost was something like $230,000 or $260,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Were tenders confined to Canadian builders?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Or was it open to the world?


John Douglas Hazen: It was open.


Rodolphe Lemieux: And my hon. friend
chose a Canadian firm?


John Douglas Hazen: I did.


Rodolphe Lemieux: And he found all the
rivets in Collingwood?


John Douglas Hazen: 1 did not examine the rivets. I think that the contract was let before the change of government took place.


Rodolphe Lemieux: So much the better.
Mr.A.K. MACLEAN: Would the minister please inform us as to the repairs for which tenders are asked and for which tenders are not asked? How is it settled-according to the amount of the repairs to be made?


John Douglas Hazen: It depends upon the nature of the repairs. When a vessel is new it is an easier matter for the officials of the department, like Mr. Ferguson and other technical officers who have charge of this work, to prepare a specification on which tenders can be asked, but when a vessel is old and a lot of work has to be removed and torn down and it is impossible to tell what has to be done until you commence tearing down, it is very frequently thought that it is not desirable to ask for tenders because it is impossible for any one to know before hand what the work will amount to.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is hardly an answer to the question I asked. Surely the department must have some rule about this. Certainly the proper rule would be that the department should ask for tenders, perhaps not in all cases, but in the majority of cases and the cases in which it was not done should not reach any substantial figure.
If a boat were to be repaired in Halifax at a cost of $500, what course would be pursued? Whether the boat was old or new should not make any difference. Are tenders asked publicly, or are they quietly solicited from friends of the Government and those whose names are on the patronage list?


Wilfrid Laurier: Is there a
patronage list now?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: In Halifax there is not only a patronage list but a patronage committee.


Wilfrid Laurier: Surely not.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The Prime Minister, who represents that constituency, apparently does not undertake to discharge the duties which ordinarily devolve upon a supporter of the Government in respect to patronage, and so they have a patronage committee. In Halifax the policy which would guide the department would be largely determined by that committee.


John Douglas Hazen: The manner of doing the repairs would largely depend upon the report of Mr. Ferguson, inspector of Government steamers, and Mr. McConkey, inspector of repairs to Government vessels. These gentlemen would be guided by the condition of the vessel and the nature of work to be done as to whether they would recommend day's work or contract. The great bulk of these tenders are asked, not by public advertisement in the newspapers, but by asking certain persons and firms, whose names are upon a list for that purpose.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: In 1910 the Nova Scotia Iron Works of Dartmouth were paid apparently $5,363 under contract. Were tenders invited in that case before the contract was made?


John Douglas Hazen: I will have to look that up.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is the
meaning of the charges set out in the Auditor General's Report by the Naval Service Department against the Marine Department?


John Douglas Hazen: I suppose that is work
done for the Marine Department in the dockyards at Halifax and Nanaimo, which are under the control of the Naval Service Department.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I understand that the
cutters of the Customs Department are under the joint supervision of the Department of Marine and the Department of Customs.


John Douglas Hazen: The Marine Department
has no control over the Customs cutters.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The practice used to be to have joint control.


John Dowsley Reid: The Marine Department supplies the officers and crews and pays them, and that amount is refunded by the Department of Customs, but the steamers are absolutely under the control of the Department of Customs.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That is exactly as I
understood it. I wish to ask the minister if in October or November last a yacht was purchased for the use of the Customs Department, and which yacht now is said to be in winter quarters at Prescott. From whom was the yacht purchased, for what purpose, and what price was paid?


John Dowsley Reid: The only yacht I have any knowledge of is a yacht seized by the Department of Customs at Prescott some time last spring, I think. It was hauled up at Prescott and repaired and the owners abandoned it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Who was the owner of the yacht?


John Dowsley Reid: We could not find the owner. I think he left the country a year or two ago. Two men in Brockville, the captain and the engineer, had claims against the yacht. Their claims were paid by the Department of Customs, and the yacht, after being refitted, was sent on to St. John, N.B.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend can find all the details in the Register, because every boat is registered. This yacht was towed from Montreal up the river as far as Prescott or Kingston about the end of October or the beginning of November last, and quartered there for the winter. Names have been given to me, which I do not care to produce, but I should like to know from the hon. minister if it is not true that his department purchased such a yacht.


John Dowsley Reid: We have no record in the Customs Department of the purchase of
such a yacht. The yacht I refer to was purchased in the month of July and was sent down to St. John.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Did the department
purchase any yacht as late as October or November last?


John Dowsley Reid: Not that I know of.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the hon. minister find out if within the last five months any yacht has been purchased by the Department of Customs and quartered for the winter either at Prescott or at Kingston, and give his answer this evening?


John Dowsley Reid: I will give the hon.
member an answer within half an hour.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I saw in the papers
lately that the Department of Marine and Fisheries had given a contract for the building of a vessel to Vickers Sons and Maxim, of Montreal, and that the construction of the vessel had been commenced in Montreal. What truth is there in that statement?


John Douglas Hazen: There is no truth in it.
No contract has been awarded. Tenders have been asked for and are coming in for the construction of a dredge and also for the construction of an ice-breaker. The time for receiving these tenders is not up yet.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If tenders are received from Great Britain and from Canada, will the hon. minister give the preference to Canadian builders or to British builders, and is there any condition as to where the vessels are to be constructed?


John Douglas Hazen: We are asking for tenders
for a vessel to be constructed m Canada.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Then the statement that the vessel has to be built in Canada is true?


John Douglas Hazen: That statement is true.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Of course it is not
known where in Canada the vessel will be built?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When were the tenders to be in?


John Douglas Hazen: I think they were to be
in on the 31st day of January. We had a communication from certain builders stating that they desired to tender, but could not get in their tenders in time. They asked us to extend the time for receiving

tenders, and we extended it until the 5th day of this month.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What is the estimated
cost of the ice-breaker?


John Douglas Hazen: Half a million dollars for an ice-breaker of the most modern construction for the St. Lawrence river.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have seen in the press that the two ice-breakers, the Montcalm and the Lady Grey, have been removed from Quebec to the Maritime provinces.


John Douglas Hazen: No. They are at work on the St. Lawrence, and their special business is to keep the ice broken on the St. Lawrence river. This has two results: it avoids floods in the spring of the year, and it causes the river to open much sooner, so that navigation will open earlier.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When I saw that statement in the press, I wondered whether my hon. friend had listened to the complaints of eertain people from Quebec in regard to ice floes blocking the harbour of Quebec during the wiater. I do not think they have any serious ground for complaint, and, as my hon. friend states, the work performed by the two steamers is most valuable, not only to navigation proper, but to prevent a repetition of the devastating floods from which we suffered some years ago. I am glad that the hon. gentleman will not listen to any such complaints.


John Douglas Hazen: We listened to them, but we were not convinced by the representations that were made.


Charles Murphy: In the list of steamers
which my hon. friend read a little earlier in the afternoon, how many of the vessels are ice-breakers? Where do they operate? Do they operate in the same place each season?


John Douglas Hazen: The Champlain is an icebreaker and is used in the ferry running from Riviere Ouelle to Murray bay. The Earl Grey i3 an ice-breaker in the Prince Edward Island service. The Lady Grey is an ice-breaker, used on the St. Lawrence river and on the ship channel during the summer. The Minto is an ice-breaker in the Prince Edward Island service. The Montcalm is an ice-breaker, used on the St. Lawrence river and in the lighthouse and buoy service in Quebec during the summer months. The Stanley is an ice-breaker, used in the light-house and buoy service in Nova Scotia, in breaking ice in different

harbours where it is possible to do so, and also in making trips across to the Magdalen islands.


Charles Murphy: Are they kept on the
same routes each season?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Does the Stanley make occasional trips to the Magdalen islands during the winter for mail purposes?


John Douglas Hazen: The Stanley has made one trip to the Magdalen islands. We hope - she will be able to make others.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have received a letter from the Rev. Father Turbide, one of the most prominent clergymen on the islands, who states that the service is badly needed. He informs me that there is a lack of coal on the islands this winter. I do not know for what reason, but the islanders were deprived of their usual supply of coal last fall. I shall be pleased to know that my hon. friend will see that the Stanley makes one or two additional trips before the month of March. Does my hon. friend know if the service between Riviere Ouelle on the south shore and Murray bay on the north shore has been interrupted, and the cause of the interruption of the trips made by the Champlain?


John Douglas Hazen: I understand that the service this year from Riviere Ouelle to Murray bay has not been satisfactory. A new wharf is in course of construction at Murray bay, and at present proper protection is not afforded to steamers at that place. We have had a great deal of correspondence about it, and have done the best we could. Circumstances which were not under the control of our department have made it almost impossible for us to give a3 satisfactory a service as should be given.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If the service is not re-established this winter, there will be very great hardship, because that is the only line of communication for the whole of the north shore with Quebec and Montreal. It is true that a new and very much needed wharf is being built at Murray bay. If my honourable friend will look into the matter he will find that although the landing facilities at Murray bay are not as good as they should be, better facilities may be be obtained elsewhere, for instance at Cap a l'Aigle, Les Eboulements, St. Irenee or Baie St. Paul. Any of these places are a little out of the way, but the people on

the north shore would have at least communication with the south shore and with Quebec and Montreal if landings were established at any of these points. I would ask my hon. friend to look into this matter and see that the people are given proper communication, as they are now as much isolated as the people of the Magdalen Islands.


John Douglas Hazen: Efforts are now being made to effect arrangements by which the Lady Grey, when she can be spared, will be put on the route from Quebec to Murray bay. At present the trouble is that she cannot remain at Murray bay for any length of time, but efforts are being made to give a more satisfactory service than at present exists.


Jacques Bureau: I read in the papers last night that the steamer Montcalm was leaving in the morning on a cruise to the gulf, the vicinity of the Seven islands and the north shore. On a previous occasion I read that it was the intention of the department to keep these steamers this winter on the St. Lawrence, with a view to keeping the river open up to Three Rivers or lake St. Peter. Representing the county of Champlain, you are familiar, Mr. Chairman, with the conditions in that district, but perhaps you have not suffered as much from the results of ice jams on the St. Lawrence river below Three Rivers as we have further up. When the ice jams in this part of the river the counties of St. Maurice, Champlain and Maskinonge are flooded and a great deal of damage is done. In the years 1906, 1907, 1908 and 1909 the Montcalm and the Lady Grey came regularly to this part of the river and kept the channel open, and in the spring there were no floods and no damage was done. On one occasion the Montcalm ran short of coal at Three Rivers and was caught in the ice, and, no tugs or ot-ier boats being available, she eouiu not work her way out and had to winter at Three Rivers. The consequence was that the boat could not do any work at Cap a la Roche, the ice jammed, and there was a flood on both sides of the St. Lawrence. Barns and houses were torn down, wharfs were broken away, and considerable damage was done on the shores of the river. If it be the intention of the Government to charter boats as ice-breakers and keep them at that work, 1 do not see any necessity of their breaking ice except where the ice takes, for that is where there is liable to be great damage to property. If it is not the intention of the department to recall the Montca'm and have her perform the services for which she was intended, I would urge the Government to take such steps as will give a measure of protection to the people along the shores of the St. Lawrence river between Cap a la Roche and lake St. Peter.


John Douglas Hazen: As far as the breaking of ice in the St. Lawrence is concerned, these boats are under the direction of Mr. For-neret, who is in charge of the dredging operations on the river St. Lawrence. What my hon. friend has said about the desirability of keeping the ice broken so as to prevent these floods is absolutely correct. When certain conditions of tide and weather prevail, the boats are not required for the purpose of breaking ice, and under such circumstances it has been customary to send the boats to the Seven Islands and other places with which there is no communication, in order that the people in those districts may be able to get supplies and have communication with the outside world. That policy has been pursued for the last ten years and, I understand, satisfactorily so. The boats are there for the purpose of breaking ice in the ship channel during the winter season, and no good purpose would be served in keeping them there when they are not necessary for the purpose of breaking ice. Under such circumstances it is much better to have them render service to the people of Seven Islands and other points. They only go under such conditions as I have referred to, and when, in the opinion of the superintendent of the St. Lawrence channel, they can do so without in any way impairing their efficiency as ice-breakers.


Jacques Bureau: I have every confidence in Mr. Forneret; against him I have nothing whatever to say. I would call attention to the fact that the ice has taken-I have crossed the river on the ice between the counties of Champlain and Nicolet. The year the boat was caught in the ice at Three Rivers-1912; they called it the Borden flood, I think- much damage was done, and if these boats are sent down the river this year, and the work is not started at once, I am satisfiied that the result will be the same. Is it the policy of the Government to try to keep the channel open during the winter, as was stated in the Conservative press last fall?


John Douglas Hazen: It is, certainly-to keep the ice broken so that there shall be no floods, and so that navigation will be open early in the spring.


Jacques Bureau: I may tell the minister that the ice has frozen over the river and is thickening all the time, just at the places where the boat ought to be to-day.


John Douglas Hazen: I shall certainly call the attention of Mr. Forneret to what my hon. friend says. As evidence of the fact that we are desirous of doing all that is possible in the matter, I may say that we have asked for tenders for a foreign ice-breaker to be used on the St. Lawrence river as an icebreaker, and for no other purpose. It has been found that the practice of having boats constructed to be used not only as icebreakers, but for other purposes during the summer, is one which has not been very much in the public interest. These boats built as ice-breakers are tremendous consumers of coal, and their operation for ordinary purposes during the summer is very expensive. The new boat is being constructed for use as an ice-breaker only. It will be of the most modern construction, and I am told by the naval architect of the department that it will be equal to any ice-breaker in any part of the world. When that boat is ready and in operation I do not think that there will be any further complaints. Because of the fact that the people living at Seven Islands are entirely without means of communication with outside districts, a tremendous pressure is brought to bear on the department-and the same is true of the Magdalen Islands-to have boats sent there from time to time to make conditions of living a little more pleasant than they are when the people are absolutely shut out from the outside world. But if by doing so we are imperilling the work upon the St. Lawrence, then the very greatest care ought to be exercised.


Jacques Bureau: I do not want to be understood as trying to discriminate against the people of the Seven islands or any other place, but they have the Druid that I know of and the Montmagny.


John Douglas Hazen: They are not ice-breakers, they cannot do that service in winter.


Jacques Bureau: These boats could go
down to the Seven islands, they are strong boats and go down there in the spring and late fall.


John Douglas Hazen: They are not built for that purpose, they could not do it in the winter season.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: At page N-22 of the Auditor General's Report, there is an account for $5,353 paid to the Nova Scotia 
Iron Works at Dartmouth. Were tenders asked for that work?


John Douglas Hazen: The purchasing agent tells me that those repairs were done by tender.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: On page N-22 there is a payment to Stewart, Bruce & Co., Charlottetown, of nearly $3,000 for repairs to the steamer Montcalm. There was also a sum of over $4,500 paid to the same firm for repairs to the Earl Grey. These two accounts are made up of small amounts, but in the aggregate the amount is quite substantial for the year. Was this done after tenders?


John Douglas Hazen: The purchasing agent tells me that the first item is made up of different small items. It was not done by tender. Practically this is the only firm in Charlottetown with a shop of the kind necessary to do the work of that character and this is the firm who for many years past, no matter what Government has been in power, have been doing work for the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is this the only firm in Charlottetown capable of doing this class of work?


John Douglas Hazen: That is what I am told
by the purchasing agent of the department.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: When supplies of the value of over $100 are purchased what is the practice of the department? Are tenders solicited from friends of the Government or from the public?


John Douglas Hazen: In many cases tenders are asked from friends of the Government. Thexe are cases when they are asked from people on both sides of politics, when people who are not friends of the Government are asked to submit figures.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What amount determines the policy of the Government as to whether friends of the Government or the public are asked to submit tenders?


John Douglas Hazen: The purchasing agent tells me that the same policy prevails as has prevailed for many years past. The local agent of the department asks for figures and the people who are leaders in different lines of commerce supply the different lines of goods wanted. Figures are submitted and the lowest prices are accepted and all goods are obtained on a competitive basis.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But sometimes
the competition is confined to well known friends of the Government.


John Douglas Hazen: I think that would be correct.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Regardless of the
amount purchased during a season.


John Douglas Hazen: I think that where the
amounts are very large, tor large quantities of iron, &c., tenders are asked.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What course does the minister direct to be taken by purchasing agents in St. John, for instance.


John Douglas Hazen: In St. John four or five different firms are asked to figure.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Friends of the Government?	,


John Douglas Hazen: I think they are in all
cases friends of the Government.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Then surely there will come a time when the amount would be so large that the hon. gentlemen would be mindful of the public interest and not so regardful of his own party friends.


John Douglas Hazen: I think you have competition enough amongst them to bring them down to the lowest price.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is the amount?


John Douglas Hazen: There is no hard and fast rule.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: In St. John must the agent inquire of the minister what he shall do?


John Douglas Hazen: Before the agent enters
into any contract he submits figures to the purchasing agent of the department in x Ottawa, who has been in that position for a number of years; the purchasing agent of the department examines the figures and satisfies himself that the amounts charged are only fair and reasonable charges tor the work to be done.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does he consult the member for the city and county of St. John?


John Douglas Hazen: Not at all; in matters of that sort he practically consults no one. He has large responsibilities on his shoulders as purchasing agent.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is there a patronage list for St. John in the Marine Department?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: For Halifax ?


John Douglas Hazen: No.	*


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Where is this list kept ?


John Douglas Hazen: The purchasing agent tells me that he has no patronage list but has a knowledge in every community in Canada of people engaged in different lines of business and he is guided by that.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I do not think this was the practice under the late Government.
If it was, it never had the concurrence of
lion, gentleman opposite.


John Douglas Hazen: The purchasing agent tells me the practice is exactly the same as that which prevailed under my predecessors in office.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The Minister of Marine did not approve of this practice.


John Douglas Hazen: I was not in the House.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The hon. gentleman was out of the House, but he took very good care to let the public in New Brunswick know that he did not approve of this departmental practice. I remember the hon. ' gentleman making a speech in the election of 1911 in St. John in which he condemned this practice in the most severe fashion.


John Douglas Hazen: I think my hon. friend is entirely mistaken; I do not think I ever made a speech in my life in which I condemned the system of purchase being carried on in the Department of Marine and Fisheries. It may be that I should have done so, but I did not.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK:: The minister spoke against reciprocity.


John Douglas Hazen: On many occasions.


Mr. GERMAN:: There is a practice in the Railways and Canals Department, and I think in the Public Works Department, that all amounts over $5,000 must be advertised.


John Douglas Hazen: Anything over $5,000 in our department is purchased by tender, and on many occasions for less amounts.


William Manley German: Open to the public ?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: I would like to ask about a number of items, found at page No. 13 of the Auditor General's Report, amounting to $20,431.50 paid to George T. Davie & Son, of Levis, tor repairs to some steamer. I do not think it is stated in the item what steamer it is. I would like to know if tenders were asked for in this case, and in the other cases where this firm has made repairs to steamers at Levis; and if so, wihether these tenders

were open to the public or were the contracts awarded simply by private letters written to the firm.


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot give my hon. friend exact information, as the payment he refers to occurred before I was minister. I believe the circumstances were something like this: The Earl Grey was taking the Governor General down the river and ran ashore. She was very badly damaged, and was repaired by the Davie firm, who were the lessees of the Government dry dock at Quebec. There was no other place where the Earl Grey could have been repaired. Of course I am speaking of something for which I have no responsibility at all. But I am told an estimate was made of the cost of repairs by the inspector, Mr. Ferguson, and, based on that, the minister of that day entered into a contract with the Davie firm.	-


John Howard Sinclair: There is another item in which the name of the Davie firm appears. On page N-10 it says:
Geo. T. Davie & Son, Levis, replacing propeller blade, &c., ?3,094.
That is in connection with the steamer Champlain. Were tenders asked for, and if so, in what manner?	*


John Douglas Hazen: I am informed that the Davie firm is the only company in the city of Quebec that is able to make repairs to a ship beneath its water line. It is the only firm in Quebec that has the facilities and the docking appliances for doing that, and therefore any vessel requiring such work has to go to the Davie firm. The custom is to have a careful report and estimate made by the technical officers of the department, and upon that report a contract is entered into.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend can sleep on both ears every evening so long as he has as honest and straightforward a purchasing agent as the one now in the employ of his department. I can testify to his ability and to his honesty. But at the same time I am surprised at the offhand way in which my hon. friend speaks of the system whereby tenders are given to a select few-a select few Tories of course. My hon. friend was not in the House prior to 1911. Of course he had some experience of the House in 1891, but several hon. gentlemen who were sitting on this side of the House prior to 1911, simply roasted to death my predecessor in office, Hon. L. P. Bro-

deur, because, forsooth, he followed the practice which has been accepted and gladly followed by the present Minister of Marine and Fisheries. This is the best possible vindication of the policy of the Hon. Mr. Brodeur. Day in and day out he was taunted by the Conservative Opposition because he accepted tenders from Grit firms, at very reasonable prices, for repairs to some steamers.


Mr. W. H. BENNETT:: He was being roasted about his trip to England.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend could take a trip to England and learn many things there, but this is not a case of trips to England or trip3 to Zululand. The question is whether my hon. friend who now interrupts me did not attack Mr. Brodeur, the predecessor of the present incumbent, because he awarded contracts to a few Grit tenderers at a very reasonable price when he was in office? To-day the present Minister of Marine and Fisheries furnishes us with the most complete vindication of Mr. Brodeur. He says:	I
followed the system of my predecessor. That is about all we can expect from a Tory Government. Each time this Government is taken to task they reproach us with having done a similar thing while we were in office. They admit now that what we did then was honest and fair, but at that time they criticised it. Hon. gentlemen were simply making political capital in order to prejudice the mind of the electors. I am glad to see the minister following the policy adopted by his predecessor, Mr. Brodeur, and taking the advice of this much abused yet able and active purchasing agent appointed by the Laurier Government, Mr. Doutre.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Do I understand that all purchases made by the department must first receive the approval of the purchasing agent?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, for every dollar.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Would that apply to repairs on a ship as well?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, to everything.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Then before repairs are commenced on a ship the rates pertaining to the different items have to be approved by the purchasing agent. Is that correct?


John Douglas Hazen: No work is undertaken in the way of repairs to ships or anything of that sort, until the purchasing agent has issued a warrant for such work and no

money ia paid until he examines the bills and has certified that the charges are correct.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does not the minister
think he should lay down a rule for the guidance of his officer, as (to when he should ask for public tenders, and when the contract should be given to friends of the Government?


John Douglas Hazen: In cases where there is no question about asking for public tenders, the purchasing agent would go to the deputy head or to myself and discuss the matter.
I want to say to my hon. friend that it has not been my practice to interfere with the judgment of the purchasing agent in matters of that sort.


John Howard Sinclair: How does the purchasing agent know who are the friends of me
Government?


John Douglas Hazen: I suppose the purchasing
agent, being a man of affairs, has a pretty fair knowledge of that.


John Howard Sinclair: Take the case of a government ship buying supplies from a merchant on the coast of my constituency. Who advises them where to buy their supplies?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know what goods are purchased in the constituency of my hon. friend except goods purchased by the steward. The stewards are free agents and can purchase where they see fit.


James Joseph Hughes: That is for provisions?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes. I do not know what else they could purchase along the coast of Guysborough.


John Howard Sinclair: Supplies lor ships?


John Douglas Hazen: That sort of thing would
be purchased, I should say, at the agencies through the agents of the department and not by the officers of the ships. They would have to go to the agents of the department except there might be an occasion when something would have to be purchased when there was not time to consult with the agent. But I cannot imagine that anything of importance would be purchased except through the agents of the department.


John Howard Sinclair: Coal?


John Douglas Hazen: Coal is supplied by contract, and of course coal is a thing that has a well established market price.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Where was the coal purchased last year in the county of Gasp6 for the Government steamers?


John Douglas Hazen: I understand that it was
purchased from a gentleman named Carter.


John Dowsley Reid: Might I be permitted to give the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemiuex) an answer to the question he asked me a few minutes ago? The hon. member for Rouville asked if a yacht had been purchased by the Customs Department.


Rodolphe Lemieux: A yacht or a boat.


John Dowsley Reid: I have a memorandum from the Assistant Commissioner of Customs in which he tells me that no yacht has been purchased by the Customs Department during the last six months and quartered for the winter at Prescott or Kingston. As far as I am personally concerned if a steamer had been purchased for the Customs Department and it had been at any place on the St. Lawrence west of Montreal I would have known something about it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What about the yacht said to have been seized and quartered at Prescott?


John Dowsley Reid: I say that a yacht was seized at Prescott or Brockville and that only the parties that had any claim against it were paid. It was hauled up immediately on the marine works and repaired and the Department of Customs paid the Department of Marine and Fisheries for the repairs. The boat was then towed to Kingston, brought down the Rideau canal to Ottawa and taken from Ottawa to St. John direct; it was not used in any way on the St. Lawrence river after it came off the ways at Prescott.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will the hon. gentleman tell us who was the owner of the yacht and how it was registered?


John Dowsley Reid: It was an American yacht.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The yacht was the property of some one; it would have been easy to find out.


John Dowsley Reid: There was no way of finding it out.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Was it the Phantom?


John Dowsley Reid: No, the name of the yacht was the Albatross. The boat 5 p.m. had been used on the St. Lawrence for a year before it was found out by the preventive staff that it was an American yacht.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How much was paid for the repairs and what was devoted to the people who had a claim against it?


John Dowsley Reid: If I remember rightly the
master had a claim of about $150 and the engineer of $300 or $400. That was all that was paid by the Customs Department except the amount paid to the Marine Department for repairs. I could not exactly say what that was. It took considerable to repair her and to put her in the condition necessary to be used at St. John. She went directly from Prescott through the Rideau canal to St. John, N.B.; where, she is being employed in the service.


James Joseph Hughes: The minister has told us that coal is always purchased by tender.


John Douglas Hazen: Where coal is required in
large quantities, such as at the Sorel shipyards and at Quebec where a large number of steamers are supplied from, it is purchased by tender, but sometimes it is necessary to purchase it without tender, as in the case of the -comparatively small quantity purchased at Gasp6 from Mr. Carter.


James Joseph Hughes: What system is pursued when tenders are asked for ?


John Douglas Hazen: We buy small quantities at the ordinary market price which would have to be approved by the purchasing agent.


James Joseph Hughes: How is that ordinary market price ascertained ?
Mr: HAZEN: I suppose it is well understood in any -community what the ordinary market price of a certain commodity would be at a certain time. Mr. Doutre, the purchasing agent, tells me that he has a list showing what the cost of coal should be for delivery at every point in Canada.


James Joseph Hughes: How is it, then, that a certain quantity of run-of-mine coal was purchased in Charlottetown at five dollars per ton, and a certain quantity of steamer coal, which is of better quality, was purchased at $5.75 per ton ?


John Douglas Hazen: The purchasing agent informs me that the person who was supplying at $4.70 a ton ran out of coal, and we were forced to pay a higher price for a small quantity to get delivery at the time we wanted it. That seems to be a peculiar case.


William F. Carroll: For a department that uses so much coal, would it not be better

to make a contract direct with the coal companies, especially in the Maritime provinces ?


John Douglas Hazen: That is what we do.


William F. Carroll: You do not contract for your coal supplies on the St. Lawrence ?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, we do. We enter into a contract direct with the coal company for coal used at Sorel, and Quebec, and St. John, and Halifax, and Montreal. I am informed that the Nova Scotia Steel Company has the large end of that contract.


William F. Carroll: What price does the department pay the coal company ?


John Douglas Hazen: I am informed that the prices are: $4.03 per ton delivered -at Sorel and Quebec; $4 per ton delivered at Montreal, bunkered; $3.75 at Halifax, and about $3.80 at St. John.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What do you pay at Gaspd ?


John Douglas Hazen: 48 tons were purchased at Gasp6 for $5 a ton from Mr. A. T. Carter, and 100 tons at $5.50.


Bowman Brown Law: Did the minister state that the stewards of the vessels had complete control of the purchase of supplies of stores on the departmental boats ?


John Douglas Hazen: That is the fact.


Bowman Brown Law: Is there a patronage committee in Yarmouth ?


John Douglas Hazen: A what ?


Bowman Brown Law: A Tory patronage committee ?


John Douglas Hazen: I have no knowledge of such a committee.


Bowman Brown Law: I can tell the minister that after the change of Government, the very first visit that the steward of the lightship Lurcher made to Yarmouth, he was met before he landed on the wharf by a member of the patronage committee in Yarmouth and told he had to buy his provisions from certain persons there. I have no objection whatever to those from whom he was asked to buy his provisions, but the result was that this gentleman made up his mind that he had to buy his stores- and having a contract with the Marine and Fisheries Department to supply the men at a certain price-he ought to have an opportunity to buy them at the cheapest place. The members of the patronage committee, not only having advised him but ordered him to buy from certain per-

sons, and as he found there was no money in continuing in the work, he resigned his position as steward, and a new man was put in his place.


John Douglas Hazen: He was very foolish to resign his position, because nobody in Yarmouth or anywhere else had authority from the department to compel him to resign, or to prevent .him from buying provisions from any person he wanted to buy from. His contract from the department was to supply the men and officers at so much per head, and all he had to do was (to carry out that work in good faith.


William F. Carroll: Are the coal supplies
for the Marine Department, which are from the companies, bought under tender?
Mr. HAZEhi. Yes.


Bowman Brown Law: I ask the minister to make it plain that the stewards of these boats are at liberty to purchase stores from any person from whom they see nt to purchase, without losing their position.


John Douglas Hazen: That is absolutely correct. The department makes a contract with them and the business of the department is simply to see that their work is properly carried out.


Bowman Brown Law: I am very glad to hear the minister make that statement, because I think it is only fair, when these men take a contract for a certain price, that they should be permitted to buy their goods wherever they can buy them cheapest.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the department always protect a purchasing agent, we will say the purchasing agent at St. John, if he buys supplies from those from whom he can purchase for the lowest possible price?


John Douglas Hazen: There is no purchasing
agent at St. John, but we will certainly protect the agent at St. John or anywhere else if he, first of all, submits the matter to the purchasing agent of the department at Ottawa, gets his warrant to proceed with the purchase, and if the purchasing agent at Ottawa afterwards certifies that the prices are proper prices.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: And you would not take notice of any protest you might receive from say a defeated Conservative candidate, protesting against these purchases or asking for the removal from office of such a man?


John Douglas Hazen: All I can say is that other things being equal any government would prefer to have purchases made from its friends rather than from those who are not. That is the principle and policy which every government, under our system of government, has acted upon since the world began. So far as purchasing is concerned, I have no doubt there is not a port-in Canada at which good goods cannot be purchased from persons of one political faith just as cheaply as from those of another political faith. Other things being equal, I would expect the purchases to be made from those who are friends of the Government, but I would not expect the agent to so purchase, if it were against the public interest to do so, or if he had to pay higher prices.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What does the minister do to protect a purchasing agent against a patronage committee?


John Douglas Hazen: The purchasing agent at Ottawa has a thorough knowledge of the value of goods, or he would not be fit to be purchasing agent. He knows the value of goods at St. John, or Halifax, or anywhere else, and he will not certify and allow the goods to be paid for unless the prices are right.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Then why permit the existence of a patronage committee?


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend is too old a politician to ask a question of that sort. He knows that when his party were in power, and when other parties were in power also, people in different constituencies would organize themselves into patronage committees and make representations to the member from that constituency, or to the Government with regard to appointments to office, and as to from whom purchases should be made and so on. That is all very well, but after all, the responsibility for what is done must rest upon the responsible head of the department and the permanent officials, and they will take pains to guard the public interest. I think honourable gentlemen are indulging in a good deal of nonsense when they say that governments will not help their own friends. All governments will help their own friends if they can do so, and if by doing so they are doing nothing that is against the public interest. But governments have no right to purchase from their own friends in preference to their opponents, if by doing so they pay higher prices for the goods purchased. I think that is the

correct principle under our system of party government, and when we talk about governments not favouring their own friends when they can do so without injury to the public interest, we are talking what, at the bottom of our hearts, we know is not the principle which governs to-day anywhere.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Would the minister have any objection to show us the patronage list in his department?


John Douglas Hazen: Mr. Doutre says he has no patronage list.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I suppose that in some constituencies it is the practice, and possibly has been the practice, to have a patronage committee, but I have very little respect for the member representing a constituency who permits that, and will not take the responsibility himself.


John Douglas Hazen: In the end, the representative of the constituency has to take the responsibility.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It is an anomaly in the political system obtaining in this country. I am not complaining so much of preference being shown to friends of the Government by ministers when purchasing, but the minister justifies that upon the ground that the public interest does not suffer. I say the public interest frequently does suffer, and we will be able to show some ministers of the Crown, before the session is over, that by reason of the patronage system public interests have suffered. If the minister adheres to the policy of purchasing from friends of the Government, he should lay down some rule for the guidance of his officers as to when this favour should be shown to friends of the Government; there should be some limit to it in the amount or the quantity of purchases. The minister has been asked several times this afternoon to establish some rule with reference to the matter, but he has failed to do so.


John Douglas Hazen: The universal instruction
that the purchasing agent gets is: that he is to purchase the goods used by the department to the best possible advantage from the standpoint of the department and from the standpoint of the public interest. I am satisfied that the purchasing agent of the department lives up to that rule. If the hon. gentleman can show me where, in our department, we have been paying excessive prices for any article, I will be very much surprised indeed. There might be a single case that would pass by

accident, but I believe that all the articles we are purchasing are purchased on fair and proper terms, and in many cases we are paying less than the prices paid by private individuals throughout the country for similar goods.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I had not the
Marine Department specially in mind when I made that observation; it was the principle I was referring to.


William Manley German: The purchasing agent in the Marine and Fisheries Department is a gentleman who has been in office for many years.


John Douglas Hazen: For some years.


William Manley German: So far as I know that gentleman has always filled the position with very great care and satisfaction, and I do not see why he should make any mistake at the present time when he was able to do perfectly right in past years.


James Joseph Hughes: How are the men for the ice-breakers and other Government vessels selected?


John Douglas Hazen: They are selected by the
agents of the department. I have no hesitation in saying that the agent of the department, at Charlottetown for instance, would consult with and take recommendations from members for the constituency supporting the Government, Mr. McLean and Mr. Nicholson. The agent would not take their recommendations unless he was satisfied of the competency of the men recommended. If the men are thoroughly competent, an agent is quite within his right in accepting the recommendations of the member for the constituency.


James Joseph Hughes: I thought the captains
were consulted with regard to the men.


John Douglas Hazen: The agent probably consults the captain.


James Joseph Hughes: Has the agent the privilege of refusing any man who he knows is not qualified?


John Douglas Hazen: If the captain of one of
those vessels said that a man was not competent, he would not be forced upon the captain. It would not be in the interest of the public service to force a captain to take a man who was not competent.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: During the campaign of 1911 one of the policies of the present Prime Minister, in order to obtain the support of the electorate in certain por-

tions of Canada, was the affording of medical aid and free medicine to fishermen.


John Douglas Hazen: That could not properly
come up under this item, which is a marine item.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I thought you
might carry the doctor and the medicine around in these ships.


John Douglas Hazen: This matter would properly come under the question of fisheries. I have no objection, however, to discussing the matter now.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I would like to
have it discussed now.


John Douglas Hazen: The matter is receiving a
great deal of consideration at the hands of the officers of the Department of Fisheries. They are endeavouring to form some satisfactory scheme for giving the suggested medical service to fishermen. They find it a very difficult problem to solve. Although many of them are men of experience, and have consulted men outside of the department, members of the House and others who are interested in the matter, they have found it most difficult to form any scheme that will be satisfactory and that will be within reasonable financial bounds. Although the problem is such a difficult one, we have not altogether despaired of solving it. My first knowledge of the matter came after the election, when I became a member of the House and a member of the Government.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it intended to supply all the fishermen in Canada with free medical attendance and free medicine, and their families as well?


John Douglas Hazen: Nothing will be gained by discussing the details of a matter that is at present under consideration and that has not been fully worked out.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What officials are discussing the matter?


John Douglas Hazen: The Deputy Minister of
Marine and Fisheries, the Superintendent of Fisheries and others.


Rodolphe Lemieux: In regard to the construction of ships in Canada, has my hon. friend laid it down as a policy that in future vessels of the description of those used by the Department of Marine and Fisheries will be built in Canada? I would like my hon. friend to state that positively, because the draft and tonnage of these ships would certainly entitle the Canadian 27
ship-builders to have the first consideration. There should be no hesitation in giving our Canadian ship-builders the preference, not only of tendering but of getting the contract.
Mr- HAZEN: Since I have been in the department, not a dollar of our money has gone outside Canada for the building of ships. When I entered the department, certain vessels for British Columbia waters and the Halifax lightship were under con* struction. These were completed. My policy is this, that in the case of all vessels that will be required for the Marine and Fisheries Department in future, it is my intention, with the approval of the Council, to ask for tenders for these vessels to be built in Canada.
The Canadian shipbuilder has no protection in regard to vessels of this class. There is no duty upon ships of British register; they come into Canada complete in every respect, with their napkins, their china and all their appointments. The rate of wages is lower in Great Britain than it is here, and the result is that the Canadian shipbuilder is at a very great disadvantage in competing for vessels required for the Government service.
Two dredges are now being built at Col-lingwood for use on the (St. (Lawrence river; they will be in commission next year. They have been built since I came into office. In the tenders for the icebreaker to which I referred, the condition is that it must be built in Canada. It seems to me that we cannot protect the shipbuilding industry in the way in which we can protect other industries. The only way protection could be given to the shipbuilding industry would be by giving a bounty of so much a ton upon ships built in Canada. Whether that would be acceptable to the country or not, I am not prepared to state at present.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I must congratulate
the hon. gentleman on his policy. It should appeal to every good Canadian. The Government of Canada has already bonused quite heavily some of the shipbuilding firms, and it would be a pity if, for the construction of ships which can evidently be built in 'Canada, the preference were given to outside firms. I expect that the new ice-breaker will be built in Canada and will be a credit to the fleet belonging to the Government. My hon. friend can testify as to the ability of our shipbuilders. Last year we inspected the Bellechasse and the Dollard at Kingston. I believe these



two vessels are a credit to our Canadian shipbuilding firms. The same thing might be said of the other vessels that have been built at Sorel and in the Maritime provinces. I know that the iMontmagny is a splendid ship, very well equipped and of sufficiently large tonnage and draught. Really I do not see that for that class of ships we should not in the future give the preference to Canadian firms. At all events, we have now the declared policy of the hon. minister, and I must sincerely congratulate him on the decision which he has reached.


Mr. ROSS:: I agree entirely with what the hon. member for Rouville has said with regard to the building of ships in Canada with Canadian labour. I think that will please every member on this side of the House. I notice in the Auditor General's Report a statement that last year a ship called the Kestrel was sold for $5,000 to one Armstrong. What is the policy of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries in regard to these ships? Are they sold by public auction, tender, or otherwise?


John Douglas Hazen: The Kestrel, which was under the supervision of the Naval department, had been absolutely condemned by all the naval officials.


Rodolphe Lemieux: How old was she?


John Douglas Hazen: She was a very old and useless vessel. Offers of purchase of the vessel were publicly invited, but none were received. We then received an offer of $2,500 for her, but my deputy, who looked into the matter, said that we ought to get $7,500. We held the vessel for a time at that price, but without avail, and, receiving an offer of $5,000, we decided that we had better sell at that. The money was paid, and I believe that the gentleman who bought the vessel has been regretting the purchase ever since.


James Hamilton Ross: How much did it cost in the first place?


John Douglas Hazen: I have not that information.
Examiners of masters and mates, $16,500.
Mr. La\V :	What salary does the
Examiner of Masters and Mates at Yarmouth receive?


John Douglas Hazen: The examiner there,
Captain Murphy, receives $300.


Bowman Brown Law: Captain Bradford Hilton conducts a school at Yarmouth; is he not

entitled to a salary the same as the officers at Quebec, Oollingwood, North Sydney and: Victoria?


John Douglas Hazen: I understand that he is not an official of the department, and that he conducts a private school and receives tuition fees from those whom he instructs.


Bowman Brown Law: Is that a reason why Captain Hilton should not be placed on the list with the gentlemen at Quebec, North Sydney and other cities where schools are conducted?
#We have always had a school in Yarmouth, and quite a number of masters and mates receive their education there. Mr. Murphy conducted one for a number of years until he was appointed examiner and of course he could not then continue the school. I know that Captain Hilton has applied to the department for appointment; he is a very-competent official, and, in view of the fact that he conducts a school similar to that conducted by the officials in the other cities, I think he is entitled to a salary.


John Douglas Hazen: It may be that the gentleman referred to by my hon. friend would prefer to continue his private school and receive tuition fees, as in that way he might make a larger salary than he would receive from the Government. I believe it has never been the policy of this Government te establish Government schools at centres where private schools are being conducted. Government schools are established only in. towns or cities where there are men who want instruction, and where there are noprivate schools.


John Howard Sinclair: At what places have
these schools been established by the Government?


John Douglas Hazen: There are navigation
schools operating this year in Vancouver,. Oollingwood, North Sydney, Quebec, Yarmouth, Halifax and St. John. The instructor at Vancouver is Captain Eddie; at Oollingwood, Captain Coles; at Quebec, Captain Lachance; at North Sydney, Captain Sutherland; at Halifax, the Technical College; at St. John, Captain Cole.


John Howard Sinclair: How many masters and mates were passed last year?


John Douglas Hazen: In the eastern division,
70 masters and 38 mates; in the inland waters division, 85 masters and 37 mates; and in the western division, 43 masters and 48 mates.


John Howard Sinclair: Does the minister distinguish between deep sea captains and coasting captains?


John Douglas Hazen: This statement does not
distinguish.


John Howard Sinclair: Possibly you have no
deep sea captains applying.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know, but I think there would be some.


Bowman Brown Law: Some deep sea captains
passed last year. What are the salaries paid to the examiners of masters and mates?


John Douglas Hazen: Captain J. E. Murphy,
Yarmouth, $300; Captain James Sutherland, North Sydney, $300; Captain Alexander Cameron, Charlottetown, $600. At Quebec the examiner of masters and mates, Captain Lachance, also conducts a school and has other work, and so gets a larger salary. Captain George C. Coles, Colling-wood, gets $200; Captain A. D. Grant, Edmonton, Alberta, $200; Captain M. Thordarson, West Selkirk, Manitoba, $200; Captain James Gaudin, Victoria, $200; Captain Geo. Hallett, Nelson, $200; and the chief examiner of masters and mates for the Atlantic division, Captain W. R. Lugar, of Halifax, $1,800. The chief examiner at Toronto, Captain H. W. King, gets $1,800, and the chief examiner for the Pacific coast, Captain Chas. Eddie, of Vancouver, $1,800.


Bowman Brown Law: I see that Captain Murphy, examiner at Yarmouth, gets only $300, and the examiner at Charlottetown gets $600. Captain Murphy is one of the best men for that position to be found in the Dominion of Canada, and $500 looks like a pretty small sum.


John Douglas Hazen: The reason is that Mr. Cameron looks after the entire province of Prince Edward Island and the northern coast of New Brunswick.


Bowman Brown Law: There is only one other examiner in Nova Scotia.


John Douglas Hazen: There is one at Halifax,
one at Yarmouth and one at North Sydney.


Bowman Brown Law: If there is any way in which the minister could give Captain Murphy more salary, I wish he would do so, because he is a very efficient man for the position.


John Douglas Hazen: The salary seems to be
small, but they are all about on a par. I shall look into the matter.
Rewards for saving life, including life-saving stations, $125,400.


Mr. KYTE:: Under what procedure are
these rewards granted?
27}


John Douglas Hazen: The big end of this item is connected with life-saving stations. In connection with the awards for saving life, the usual course is that some one in the neighbourhood writes the department calling attention to some act worthy of recognition. This goes to the gentleman at the head of the life-saving department, Commander Thompson, formerly an officer in the Royal navy, who makes a report, and if the report is satisfactory the minister gives directions that some recognition in the way of a telescope or watch or something should be presented. No such rewards are ever given to any one in the employ of the department.


George William Kyte: Does Commander Thompson institute any inquiry as to the circumstances?


John Douglas Hazen: There is a blank form asking a number of questions with regard to the matter which is furnished to any person to be filled in.


George William Kyte: There is a case in my mind where some time ago a vessel was wrecked in the district of L'Ardoise in the county of Richmond. The schooner Bohemia from Newfoundland, laden with fish, was driven on a reef and the crew were rescued by some of the residents of the district, Thos. Clannon and his brothers. They succeeded in landing the crew from this vessel at great risk to their own lives, and I think it would be a case where they should receive some recognition for their bravery.


John Douglas Hazen: I shall instruct the department to send the hon. gentleman one of the forms to be filled in.


Bowman Brown Law: The minister will remember that on the 17th of January I wrote a letter earnestly recommending to his attention Captain Edgar McKinnon of SS. Westport and Captain Adelbert McKinnon of SS. John L. Cann who displayed great bravery and skill in rescuing the passengers and crew of the steamer CSbequid, lost on Trinity Ledge. I am sure that if the minister looks into the matter of the saving of these lives he cannot fail to realize that these two captains as well as their crews, deserve some recognition from the department and from the people of this country. The newspapers all over Canada as well as in Great Britain and the United States have given these two captains every credit for the bravery they have shown in the rescue of these men. The steamer Westport, which is very small, was the first to go out to this steamer and 62 of her

passengers and crew were taken off before [DOT]dark after they had been on the wreck for thirty-six hours, exposed to dangers untold ;and with the liability of being washed off any moment. They were rescued and landed at Yarmouth that night. The John L. Cann came right after the Westport and rescued all but the captain and ten of the crew who remained on board until the next morning, when they were taken off and conveyed to St. John. I would ask the minister to take these matters into account and trust that a suitable reward will be given to these men. I doubt if you will find in Nova Scotia two men more capable to effect such a rescue. They are thorough seo -going men, born cf sea-going families, occupying high positions as ship captains in Nova Scotia, where we produce some of the best and most heroic men in the world.
I commend the matter to the minister and trust that these men, as well as their crews will be given suitable recognition by the department.


John Douglas Hazen: This is not the first time the hon. member for Yarmouth has called my attention to this matter. My attention was called to it also by the hon. member for Digby (Mr. Jameson). Both of these gentlemen wrote me letters. The hon. member for Digby had spoken to me a day or two before and then wrote me a letter which reached me on the same day as that of the hon. member. Both hon. gentlemen did what was proper and right in calling attention to the bravery of the captains and crews of both the Westport and the Cann.
On hearing from the hon. gentleman who communicated with me, we gave instructions to Captain Thompson to inquire immediately into the facts of the case and make a report. The matter is being considered by the Department and will be dealt with as promptly as possible. The awards are not in the nature of pecuniary recompense, but take the form of a watch, telescope or something of that kind- simply something to show the appreciation of the Government of the country for acts of bravery done in the discharge of duty. Perhaps they are the more highly valued by the recipients than a money gift would be.


James Joseph Hughes: This is a branch of the service from which politics should be excluded, but, unfortunately, in my province at all events, politics have been allowed to enter. Last session I put a question on the Order paper asking the

minister for the papers in connection with the dismissal of Norman McIntosh, captain of the life-saving station at Souris, and the minister told me he did not wish to make public the reason for dismissal for Mr. McIntosh's sake, I thought something very serious must be the matter. The minister told me I could peruse the papers in his office. I went there, and saw that the charge against Mr. McIntosh was that he drank whisky and sometimes indulged too freely. I was relieved to find that that was the only charge that could be brought against him, but though there may be some truth in that charge, the man who was appointed to succeed him is a greater offender still. McIntosh was a man who had received one of the awards we are speaking of, for bravery in saving life. He and another young man volunteered to go to the rescue of two men in imminent danger of being drowned on a very stormy night. With wonderful courage and skill, they eventually succeeded in rescuing the two who had taken refuge in the rigging of their ship. Mr. McIntosh also received the Carnegie medal for the same act of bravery, and yet that man was dismissed from the public service. I think it is my duty to ask the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to make the charge against McIntosh public, so that the people of this country will not think there is any serious stain upon his character. Surely the minister must have allowed political considerations, perhaps unintentionally, to influence him in this particular case. Another question I would like to ask is, why was John Ryan dismissed from the lifesaving station at Priest Pond, and Mr. Campbell appointed in his place.


John Douglas Hazen: I have not the papers here, but if my hon. friend will repeat his question at some other time, whether we are on an item that appertains to this matter or not, I will give him the information.


James Joseph Hughes: I would also like to know why the boathouse at Souris was moved during last summer. I would like all the particulars.


John Douglas Hazen: I will get the information.


John Howard Sinclair: Might I also suggest that the minister give us a list of the other life-saving officers who were dismissed during the past year. I made an inquiry last year, and from 19 life-saving stations on the coast, I found that 12 officers have been dismissed, and some of them without any investigation being held

at all. In my constituency there was a man who held one of these Government awards for conspicuous bravery in saving life. He had occupied his position for 34 years and was a splendid officer. He was dismissed without any investigation whatever, and, so far as I know, for political reasons. If all the life-saving officers belonging to the Liberal party have been turned out of office we would like to know it. I think it would be advisable for us to have a complete * list of all the dismissals.


John Douglas Hazen: My deputy minister informs me that John Eyan, whom my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Hughes) referred to a moment ago, resigned his position voluntarily; he was not dismissed.


Mr. SINCLAIE:: Will the minister furnish us with that list ?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.
Investigation into wrecks, $18,400.


John Douglas Hazen: That is the same as last year. It covers the travelling expenses of the Dominion Wreck Commissioner, the travelling expenses of the British Commissioner, the travelling expenses of all witnesses, the salary of British Columbia Wreck Commissioner, stenographers' fees, legal services, services of assessors, services of interpreters, reporting and typewriting, preliminary inquiries, printing and unforeseen incidentals, fees which may be granted to acting wreck commissioners. The latter is only a small amount.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will my hon. friend explain to the House what action was taken in regard to the Lady of Gaspe accident which occurred on the Eiver St. Lawrence during the summer near Cap de la Madeleine?


John Douglas Hazen: The statement I have
here is of the casualties for last year, not for the current year. I will get the information for my hon. friend.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Later on. I happen to know the owners of the ship, Messrs. Bouchard Bros., of Quebec, who are highly respectable people and very good navigators. The report goes against them and I do not dispute it. I do not know the facts. I have not followed the case and my information is derived from what I have read in the papers. I know, as a matter of fact, that the owners
of the ship, who were found in default by the commissioner appointed by the department, complained, after the investigation, that they had had no chance to explain their case clearly. The reason given was that the commissioner does not speak French. I do not know personally if that statement is true or not. I simply take the allegation of one of the defendants in the case.


John Douglas Hazen: Had he nautical assessors associated with him?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I cannot say; possibly
he had.


John Douglas Hazen: I should think that in a
case of that sort there would be nautical assessors who would be familiar with the French language.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Possibly so. I am told that one of the grievances is that the case was not made clear because the' commissioner did not speak French. Possibly there were others present who did speak French. I do not question at all the decision arrived at by the commissioner. I simply call the attention of my hon. friend to that fact to ascertain whether in such a case it would not be possible to give ample protection to both parties. I am sure that my hon. friend is quite well disposed and that he will see that in future no such complaint is possible. I say again that I do not dispute the decision. I think the decision wfis right, but at the same time this is one of the grievances of the defendants.


John Douglas Hazen: I think that my hon. friend is absolutely right. Whether the decision is right or not, the court should be so conducted that there would not be any ground given for a grievance in regard to the finding of the court, and it seems to me that in cases of that sort, if the Wreck Commissioner is unable to speak the French language, he should take pains to have associated with him nautical assessors who can. I know from my own experience at the bar how very unsatisfactory it is when you have to get the evidence of witnesses translated by means of an interpreter. I will call the attention of the Wreck Commissioner to the fact and give instructions that in future in cases of that sort, where the parties or witnesses do not speak the English language he shall have nautical assessors associated with him who know the French language.
At six o'clock the House resumed, and then took recess.

The House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 41, respecting The Canadian Northern Railway Company.-Mr. W. H. Sharpe.
Bill No. 42, respecting the Esquimau and Nanaimo Railway Company.-Mr. Shepherd.
Bill No. 43, respecting Queen's University at Kingston.-Mr. Nickle.
Bill No. 44, respecting The Vancouver Life Insurance Company of Vancouver, B.C., and to change its name to The Vancouver Life Insurance	Company.-Mr. Stevens.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
Civil Government-Department of Indian Affairs, $147,487.50.
Rodolphe Lemieux: Some years ago, an hospital was opened at Caughnawaga, for the benefit of the Iroquois Indians. This hospital was established through the charity of a good lady, who noticing that for the last ten or fifteen years contagious disease was prevalent amongst the members of the tribe, and that they had not the means to pay for proper treatment, out of her beneficence and with her own means opened an hospital on the reservation. When my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) was Minister of the Interior, I represented the matter to him and he gave an annual grant of, I think, $500 or $600 to help this good lady in her work. I may say that the hospital is equally available to Protestants and Catholics. I now appeal to the present Minister of the Interior to increase that grant to something like $2,000, after, of course, he makes careful inquiries to satisfy himself of the merits of this institution, and I think he will find that the money will be well spent.


Hon. W. J. ROCHE (Supt. General of Indian Affairs):: The grant last year was, I think, $800, and I understand it is rather a small hospital. I will make inquiries from the officials and see if it is possible to increase the grant.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Probably $1,500 would be sufficient.


William James Roche: Do you know the name of the medical man who is in charge of the hospital?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not, but I know
that the institution is run on a purely humanitarian basis.


Mr. OLIVER:: Why the increase m the vote for sundries, under the head of ' contingencies?'


William James Roche: It is due to the change in the method of paying the travelling expenses.
Civil Government-Department of Customs. $330,987.50.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why is there an increase in this vote?


John Dowsley Reid: There is just $1,000 of an increase on the sundries. The amount voted last session was sufficient, but the commissioner added $1,000 in case it might be required.


Frank Oliver: There is a considerable
increase in the number of officials of the second division, subdivision B.


John Dowsley Reid: There are only two promotions in the whole list, but twenty-two new officers are recommended by the commissioner for next year. He recommends the appointment of sixteen new clerks in second division, subdivision B, ten with salaries of $1,000 each, six with salaries of $800 each, one new clerk in the third division, subdivision B, at a salary of $500, two messengers and one packer in the lower grade with salaries of $500 each.
On account of the extra work in the department we had to put on some temporary clerks. They were all selected by the Civil Service Commission.


Frank Oliver: The Department of Customs is largely a routine department, and an increase of sixteen clerks in one division is quite substantial. Though the Customs receipts have been increasing until recently, they are now on the decrease.


John Dowsley Reid: We had to put on temporary clerks last year to keep the work going. They will now be put on the permanent staff.	[DOT]


Mr. MACDONALD:: If the revenue is decreasing, you will not require their services this year.


John Dowsley Reid: We expect the revenue to increase within the next few months.


Mr. NESBITT:: Who recommended this
increase?


John Dowsley Reid: The Commissioner of Customs, Mr. McDougald, has made a state-

ment for me showing what he thinks is necessary in so far as new employees are concerned. He has consulted the heads of the different branches, and they have come to the conclusion that they require these clerks. These clerks were put on temporarily last year, but we can not put them on temporarily this year and pay them from some other fund. We have to put them on the permanent list.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: How many temporary
employees were put on?


John Dowsley Reid: About this number off and
on. This is a department in which it is absolutely necessary to have a sufficient number of clerks to check the entries and to do the work necessary to protect the revenue. The bon. gentleman will understand that the entries have to be checked in case of mistakes made by the appraisers or collectors in rates of duty. It is a department in which it is better to have a [DOT]sufficient number of clerks than to have it undermanned. I am taking the advice of officials in wrhom I have great confidence.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I quite agree that every department should be fully manned in [DOT]order to do the work properly. At the same time this looks like a very large increase, seeing that the revenue is decreasing. With all due deference to the hon. minister, I am sure that the revenue will not increase in the next few months.


Frank Oliver: What the hon. minister has said about the necessity of having a sufficient staff is very true, but as Parliament is here for the purpose of receiving and criticising information, I draw attention to the fact that some of the ministers are asking for an increase in the number of temporary clerks, while other ministers are asking for an increase in the number of permanent clerks. It is impossible for the House to keep any satisfactory track of the increases or decreases in the service when there is that movement from the temporary staff to the permanent staff and for a temporary staff instead of a permanent staff. It would be better if it were definitely arranged that, instead of employing temporary clerks, we employ permanent ones. Let it be arranged that way, and not in some of the departments increase the permanent staff this year, increase the temporary staff next year, and *then increase the permanent staff by the number of temporary clerks.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Supposing these additional clerks are appointed and there is a shortage in some other department, is it the custom of the different departments to assist each other by lending clerks?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not know what the other departments do, but in the Department of Customs we keep on only those that are required. If we have to take on temporary clerks and there is not sufficient work for them to do, we let them go immediately.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: You never make any
exchange?	.


John Dowsley Reid: No.


William John Macdonald: Were the men who were employed temporarily last year certified by the Civil Service Commission before they were employed?


John Dowsley Reid: For the inside service temporary clerks must have a certificate; for the outside service they do not require a certificate.


William John Macdonald: Is this vote entirely for the inside service?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


William John Macdonald: Will the hon. minister give us the names of those whom he employed temporarily during last summer?


John Dowsley Reid: I promise to give them to the hon. member to-morrow.


William F. Carroll: The Minister of Customs did not, in my humble estimation, answer the question that both the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) and myself put to him the other day in connection with the steamboat Alert. I thank the minister for the following part of his reply:
If on the occasion in question the Alert was not interfering with her regular cruise, I personally do not see any reason why any one, even the member for South Cape Breton himself, should not go on hoard, and proceed to their destination should the vessel he going in that direction.
The hon. minister said that the coasts down there are not accessible by boat. I want to point out to him that there is no part of the county of Victoria that is not accessible by land or sea. A regular line of boats runs down there. What I want to ask the minister is this: for what purpose was the Alert crossing those waters at that particular time? The time seemed to

synchronize with the departure of the Conservative candidate in Victoria county, and the Conservative organizer for the province of Nova Scotia. I brought to the hon. gentleman's attention the fact that certain barrels were taken from the bonded warehouse in North Sydney and hauled to the steamer Alert by the driver or carter of a local wholesale liquor dealer. The hon. minister has not yet given me any answer as to what freight was carried by the Alert on her northward trip. I do not think that it is proper for any boat in the employ of this Government to be the carrier of the candidates or organizers of any political party. I am told-and this was practically the minister's answer to my question the other day-that the Liberal party sinned in that respect. If they did so, then I say that they were sinners, but that does not justify the [DOT]present Government or any other government which may come into power in this country in following the same course. I wish to put this question to the minister now: On what business was the boat Alert cruising in those northern waters at this particular time, and what freight did she take on board at North Sydney?


John Dowsley Reid: I take it for granted that the hon. gentleman knows that the Alert is employed to prevent smuggling along the coast. She is engaged by the year, I think, and an officer in that district has charge of the service.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What is that
officer's name?


John Dowsley Reid: I think his name is Angus Young, of North Sydney. The steamer goes to North Sydney occasionally and keeps running back and forward along the coast, following any instructions that may be given by those in charge or by the captain himself, if he supposes that any smuggling -is being carried on along the coast.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The hon. member for Cape Breton says they had a load of liquor on board.


John Dowsley Reid: I think in my reply to the hon. gentleman I said that so far as I was personally concerned, or so far as any one in Ottawa connected with the department was concerned, we knew nothing about the matter, and gave no instructions in any shape or form. As to the freight, I will make inquiries and give the hon. gentleman the information that he wants. I do not suppose this boat could take on very much freight, but she might have taken on some such goods as the hon. gen-
[Mr. Carroll. 3
tleman has mentioned. The hon. gentleman comes from that part of the country and knows whether or not these statements are correct. As I said the other day, if any person in that vicinity wanted to go along the coast, and the steamer was going there, I do not think there could be any objection to his going on board. Of course in this case it happened to be the candidate and the organizer.


William John Macdonald: What kind of smuggling would the hon. minister expect to be going on along these northern shores in the month of January ?


John Dowsley Reid: They bring liquor from St. Pierre and Miquelon.


William John Macdonald: At this time of year ?


John Dowsley Reid: Certainly, at any time of the year.


William John Macdonald: I suppose the hon. minister does not know very much about that part of it.


John Dowsley Reid: I admit that I do not know very much about it, as far as that part of the country is concerned, because I have never been there myself. I am only giving the information which I got from the official in charge of that service.


John Howard Sinclair: Did the minister ask of the officer in North Sydney whether liquor was put on board the steamer on that particular occasion ?


John Dowsley Reid: I asked the officer to get me the information which was requested.


John Howard Sinclair: Did he get it for you ?


John Dowsley Reid: I read the other day the [DOT]memorandum he sent me.


John Howard Sinclair: There was nothing in the memorandum about the barrels of liquor.


John Dowsley Reid: I will get the information for the hon. gentleman; I do not wish t,o withold it.


William F. Carroll: Under the statutes of Nova Scotia it is an offence to carry intoxicating liquor from one port in the province of Nova Scotia to another. This matter was brought to my attention by a gentleman of North Sydney who is interested in preventing the sale of liquor in that port, and he asked me to bring the matter before the House. The matter stands this way. The officers and crew of the tug Alert-the owners of which draw, I understand, in the vicinity of 818,000 a year from the Government-a Government boat which was supposed to be engaged in

preventing the smuggling of liquor into the ports of eastern Nova Scotia, committed a breach of the Nova Scotia Prohibition Act by carrying intoxicating liquor from North Sydney to the northern ports of Victoria county. This is not hearsay; it is a specific charge, coming from a gentle* man in the town of North Sydney, and it is that charge which I wish the hon. minister to investigate.


John Dowsley Reid: I shall certainly have it investigated.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is the captain of the boat in the employ of your department, or are you simply charterers of the boat ?


John Dowsley Reid: We are charterers of the boat; we pay, I think, about ?15,000 a year for the service.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Have the owners or
lessees a right to use that boat for other than Government purposes?


John Dowsley Reid: No, she is supposed to be entirely in the -customs service.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: If the hon. minister learns that this boat was taken down into Victoria county purely for the purpose of carrying liquor for use in this election, what will he do with the officers dn question?	-


John Dowsley Reid: I would not care to consider that supposition; if the hon. gentleman will wait until I get the information, I shall be glad to answer him.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The hon. minister
himself has no doubt as to the purpose of that trip?


John Dowsley Reid: I have a great deal of doubt. As far as the carrying of liquor is concerned, if the captain or anybody on board had a knowledge of the matter I do not believe they would take it on board. I should not be surprised to learn that they carried groceries or something of the kind, and that the newspapers published reports that they carried liquor, r cannot believe that they would put liquors on board to take down the coast.


William John Macdonald: As one sits in the House and listens to the remarks of the hon. minister on this occasion, one is amused when he remembers the way in which the soul of the hon. gentleman was shocked a few years ago over some whisky that went up to the Arctic ocean. Hon. gentlemen from -Ontario who never cease talking about the operations of the
steamer Minnie M. might well transfer all *their vocabulary	and	a large part ofthe indignation which they have always /assumed with regard to that matter *to the performance of the Alert, which, no doubt, will became quite as famous in that	direction as	any of	the	celebrated	steamers	of	which	we	havepreviously heard so much. In attempting to	make	this	House	and	the
country believe that vessels come from St. Pierre and Miquelon in the middle of January and try to smuggle liquor to the shores of northern Cape Breton* the minister is drawing a very long bow. His commissioner comes from Nova Scotia, and if the minister does not know, the commissioner does know that access to the shores of Cape Breton by means of a schooner or sailing vessel at that season of the year is an absolute impossibility. As a matter of fact, there are no vessels trading between Newfoundland and Cape Breton and Nova Scotia and those northern waters at this season of the year. Consequently there was no necessity for the Alert to go up to the northern portion of Victoria county to look for smugglers, and everybody, including his friends from Nova Scotia, knows that that is so. Everybody knows that the facts* were that the Alert started off with the Conservative organizer and the Conservative candidate on a purely political mission. They were not looking for smugglers, they knew that there were none there and that none could get there, and they never expected to find any. The minister would like to jolly this thing along and amuse the House in regard to looking for information. Let me ask the minister if he has found out that the Conservative organizer of the province of Nova Scotia and the candidate for Victoria county were aboard that steamer.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, I gave the answer yesterday; it is in 'Hansard.'


William John Macdonald: The minister knows that. He has not found out whether there was any whiskey there or not, that is the only question about which he is in the dark. The minister does not need to wait till he gets information from North Sydney, he can find it in the department among his officials who know that the story about this boat going up to look for smugglers is grotesque and absurd. She started on this trip for one purpose, to take the Conservative candidate in the local election up to the northern part of Cape Breton. The only point at issue is whether

they took the supply of whiskey with them. The hon. member for Cape Breton has information from a reliable authority to the effect that they did, and when the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean) wants to know what the minister is going to do if he finds that the whisky was there, it is a pertinent question. Does the minister think it improper for these men to have taken *any whisky there?


John Dowsley Reid: Certainly.


William John Macdonald: So it appears that the Government are paying large sums to hire a steamer to carry electioneers in provincial elections around the province of -Nova Scotia. That is where the minister stands in regard to this question, and he -cannot get away from it. What does the minister proposes to do in regard to the utilizing of this boat for purely political .purposes? If the minister had one-half the good intentions that he pretended to have wnen he sat on this side of the House, he would at once cancel this contract, in order that the Government might he able to claim that at least they had carried out *one of their election pledges in regard to honesty of government.


John Howard Sinclair: Would the minister tell us what are the regular trips of the Alert? He tried to make the House infer that she *was going on some kind of a regular trip.


John Dowsley Reid: I understand that the headquarters of the steamer are at North Sydney, and she cruises around looking for -smugglers.


William John Macdonald: What kind of smugglers do they expect to meet?


John Dowsley Reid: I cannot say that, but I understand the steamer cruises around at whatever time she is likely to catch smugglers.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Why does not the minis-'ter despatch somebody from Ottawa to bring the boat back to North Sydney? Because I can assure him that if she has gone there with the organizer and candidate there is grave doubt of her ever coming back.


John Dowsley Reid: Then, we will not have to pay Tor her hire.


William John Macdonald: Why should not the minister send somebody after her?


Charles Murphy: There is one addition
*to subdivision B of the first division in the minister's department.


John Dowsley Reid: We are going to promote one clerk from the division below, and add another to that class.
Mr. MURPH1T: Who is to be promoted?


John Dowsley Reid: The commissioner has not
given me any information, but it is some clerk who has been at the top of his class for some years.


Charles Murphy: On the item of contingencies, is the increase of .$1,000 due, as was explained in reference to other departments, to the new system of charging travelling expenses?


John Dowsley Reid: The commissioner informs
me that this $1,000 will be required for travelling expenses.


Charles Murphy: Is the increase represented by that?


John Dowsley Reid: Y"es.


Charles Murphy: This afternoon there
was a reference to a boat that had been brought to the Prescott shipyards. My hon. friend from Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) made some inquiry in regard to it, and the minister read a ..statement sent to him by the department. It is possible that the hon. member for Rouville was under a misapprehension about the boat having been purchased by the Customs Department, and I want to ask the minister if his department has anything to do with the shipyard at Prescott?


John Dowsley Reid: The Customs Department
have nothing whatever to do with the shipyard at Prescott. I may add that the Customs Department knows nothing of any steamer having been purchased during the last fiscal year or up to date this year. There is a little yacht that was seized by the customs and not claimed. After it was repaired by the Marine Department the Customs Department paid the Marine Department for the work they did on this yacht. They immediately left the wharf at Prescott, went to Kingston, remained there a couple of days and went down the Rideau canal to St. John, N.B., where the boat is now in service. The only boats I know of that 'have ever been around Prescott, are the Scout and the Reserve. There was another large vessel there this winter belonging to the Marine Department and used in the surveying of the lakes. I do not know whether the department have bought a small launch for marine work at Prescott; if they have I have never seen it. I would not say that they have not a launeh of that

kind. It strikes me that I did hear something to that effect this summer. They were thinking of getting a gasolene launch for the superintendent to use in case the Scout and Reserve were away. But that is only what I heard.


Charles Murphy: The boat to which my
hon. friend the Minister of Customs has just referred to is different from the craft in regard to which my hon. friend from Rouville made inquiry, and in reference to which I offered some observations to the committee. This boat, I am informed, was brought to Prescott on October 26 last. She was not towed there as my hon. friend from Rouville said. I understand she went there under her own power. She stopped at Valleyfield on the way up, and one of the gentlemen in charge represented himself to be an official, I think he said the private secretary of my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works. I think he was drawing rather a long bow in making that statement, but that is how he described himself. The yacht bore no name, and reached Prescott on October 26, shortly after the Chateauguay election. Nobody knows the name of the yacht-it was taken off, and 1 understand she is still without a name. My further information is that she was purchased from the Shea Sales Company of Montreal. I am giving this information to my hon. friend so that he can make inquiry. We on this side will make further inquiry later on. A description of the boat may help my hon. friend. She is 35 feet long, four cylinder engine, with a speed of about 13 miles an hour, nickel-plated wind shield, auto-top, round stern, and hull painted white. These particulars may enable my hon. friend to identify her, and if it is not his department that is concerned with the purchase, I assume it must be the department of my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works or the Department of Marine and Fisheries. In any event, I am giving my hon. friend these particulars so that inquiries about this myterious craft may be made.


John Dowsley Reid: I am very glad to get the
information. I may say it is all news to me. I never heard of this boat before and have never seen her and until the hon. gentleman just mentioned it, I never knew there was such a boat in existence. The boat is certainly not being used in connection with the Customs Department.


Charles Murphy: It must be in connection with the Marine and Fisheries or Public Works.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I would like to say a
word or two about a question I asked the hon. Minister of Customs this afternoon in regard to blank forms used by the customs being printed in both English and French. My hon. friend seems to be under the impression that this is being asked as a favour by the importers of Montreal. My hon. friend said this afternoon, are we going to print blank forms in German, for instance, for the benefit of German exporters? I called the attention of my hon. friend to the fact that all official documents relating to the Dominion Government, blue books, etc., are published in both languages. We do not ask the Government to go to the useless expense of having these forms printed in both languages in cities or towns where there are no French-speaking people, but my hon. friend will understand that in Montreal there is a large commercial community, some of them speaking English and some of them speaking French, and if the merchants ask for these blank forms to be printed in French as well as English-and you can have the both languages printed on the same form without duplicating the form itself-they are simply asking for what is their right, they are not seeking favours. I would like an answer from my hon. friend as to whether or not he will yield to the demand made by the Montreal importers, that these blank forms be printed in French as well as in English. My hon. friend will recall the illustration I gave him this afternoon of a Montreal importer sending one of these forms to an exporter in France who did not understand the English language. The form had to be sent back, and that took up a large amount of time. There is a general complaint about it.


John Dowsley Reid: The form that the hon. gentleman handed me is simply the form of an invoice showing the kind of form the department approves of. The exporter in a foreign country makes out his own invoices and we accept them if they are in this form. The form I have here is not a customs entry form at all. We do not supply these forms to be sent away in large quantities. If a person were to go into the customs office with an entry form printed in French it is accepted, if it is made out in the right way, just as readily as a form printed in English. The misunderstanding between my hon. friend from Rouville and myself is over this form, and as I have said it is simply a form of invoice and not a

customs entry at all. We do not get these forms printed; they are printed by the firms themselves.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The answer of my hon. friend satisfies me. My correspondent informed me that he was handed a form by the customs authorities in Montreal which was printed in English. It was sent to France and sent back again because the exporter did not understand the English language. If my hon. friend will say that both languages can be used on these forms in Montreal or in any other place where both languages are spoken, I shall be perfectly satisfied.


John Dowsley Reid: Certainly. If any person
comes into the custom house in Montreal or any place else with an entry form in French we will accept it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: And the blank form is supplied by the department?


John Dowsley Reid: It is supplied by the department. This is headed ' Specimen form of invoice approved by the Canadian Customs.' This is in the-English language. If any person is sending to France, Germany, or any other place for goods he wants to have the proper form of invoice. Invoices come here without the necessary declaration and it makes a whole lot of trouble. These are a few specimen copies that they have in the department, and if a man comes and asks for the specimen we give him a form like this one.


Rodolphe Lemieux: They should be printed in French because they are supplied by the department for the information of the exporter. The difficulty was that the specimen in English was not understood by the exporter. I would ask the hon. gentleman if he intends in future to see that these blank forms are printed in both languages.


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, I have no objection.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am perfectly satisfied. The hon. gentleman seemed to be under the impression this afternoon that it was not a matter of right but a matter of favour. It is a matter of right. People dealing with the customs are entitled to have these forms in the French language when they are French-speaking people.


John Dowsley Reid: There is ho doubt about that.


Mr. MARCIL:: The Grand Trunk and
Canadian Pacific Railway Companies in the province of Quebec have all their forms, tickets and everything printed in both languages. It is a matter of convenience

and a matter of business. In all departments where they are doing business in the province of Quebec the same principle-should be applied.


William John Macdonald: Where is the Alert
now?


John Dowsley Reid: I would be very glad to give the hon. gentleman the information if I could. I can hardly tell. She left North Sydney to cruise along the coast.


William John Macdonald: Not at all; she never went there to cruise for smugglers.


John Dowsley Reid: That is my information.


William John Macdonald: The hon. gentleman has no such information, because everybody-in Cape Breton knows that at this season of the year it is ridiculous to talk about smugglers. To make the statement or to suggest the theory that the Alert, or any other Government steamer, would go along the north shore of Cape Breton to look for smugglers at this season of the year is to suggest something that is absurd. Perhaps the minister does not know that he is attempting to perpetrate a joke upon this House, but I may tell him that he is. I think the minister, in view of the fact that hon. gentlemen, when sitting on this side of the House, raised such a serious question in regard to the employment of steamers in connection with election work, is entitled to-give us the fullest information with regard to this matter before he can expect to get any supplies. My hon. friend should ascertain and let the committee know when the Alert went up there before. How many trips had she made since the middle of December in connection with preventive work in that part of the country? Would he tell us whether or not he is aware of the fact that there is a steamer running from North Sydney up as far as Neil's harbour on that coast subsidized by this Government, a public conveyance by which the Conservative electioneers and agents could have gone up there if they wanted to without appropriating a Government steamer which was put there for their own convenience in order that they could stop where-ever they wanted to, and could do so at the public expense? The minister is not going to get off with jollying the thing along and joking about smugglers in midwinter from St. Pierre and that kind of thing. This committee know how the hon. gentleman, in previous Parliaments, dealt with questions like this when they came up. My hon. friend ought not to attempt to abuse the intelligence of this House by perpetrating

such a theory upon them as that smuggling *was going on at this time of the year. My hon. friend's Government sent a special ice-breaker, the Stanley, up along the northern coast to go to the Magdalen Islands right through the waters in which this steamer is said to be cruising and the idea of smugglers coming over from St. Pierre in midwinter is one that is so grotesque that my hon. friend has a great deal of assurance if he fancies that he can get away with a story of that kind. In view of the facts in connection with this matter the minister h,as a Tight to supply the committee with full information as to what previous trips the Alert has made up that coast within the last two months for the purpose of stopping smugglers.


Mr. EDWAEDS:: If a steamer could not carry on smuggling for the reason that she could not get into shore during the winter how could a steamer land political agents?


William John Macdonald: I did not say that
a steamer could not get into shore in winter time. I was speaking of the extent to. which vessels, at this season of the year, engage in that trade. Everyone knows very well that no vessels, except the Bruce which runs from Point au Basque to Sydney, and this steamer which runs from Sydney up along that coast, are navigating those waters in winter time. The navigation is such in the gulf of St. Lawrence-and this is in the gulf-that, with the exception of special steamers which have been running up this coast for the past few years, there is no trade of any kind going on in these months and the theory of smuggling is per fectly ridiculous.


William Cameron Edwards: That would be a good time for smugglers.


William John Macdonald: I am not familiar
with the time when they smug-9 p.m. gle up on lake Ontario, but that is not the time they smuggle in Nova Scotia. My hon. friend the Minister of Customs should bring down to this committee any report-and I venture to say he has none-from his preventive officer or anybody else suggesting there has been any smuggling along that coast since the middle of December. The minister cannot produce from any official of his department any suggestion, any report, stating that any smuggling has 'been carried on along these coasts since the 15th of December. My hon. friend intimated that his department was very generous. He said:
The member for South Cape Breton is aware that certain parts of the coast are inaccessible except by boat, and if on the occasion in question the Alert was not interfering- with her regular cruise, X, personally do not see any reason why any one, even the member for South Cape Breton himself, should not go on board, and proceed to their destination, should the vessel be going in that direction.
The facts in regard to this matter are these: It was not necessary for the public business for the Alert to go up along that coast. Instead of her going there to stop smuggling she went up there at the dictation of the Conservative managers in the county of Victoria who are running a provincial election for the purpose of taking the candidate and the organizer to different places in this constituency. She did not go up there to prevent smuggling and take these gentlemen along with her incidentally; she went there for that sole and specific purpose. The information which my hon. friend from South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll) that she went there with a large supply of whiskey, to accompany these gentlemen, is of such ^ character that the minister ought to deal with it in the most serious way. Hon. gentlemen who have heard this same gentleman, who is now the Minister of Customs, inveigh in the strongest possible language against the employment of Government vessels for political purposes, sit in wonderment at the placid way in which he would like to jolly this question along. One of the great boasts of the Ministry was that when they came into power we were to have an ideal condition in regard to all questions of dealing with elections. They have been in for nearly three years and not only has nothing been done but here we have the Minnie M. outdone by the direct employment at the public expense of a Government vessel supposed to be engaged in the revenue service for the purpose of carrying organizers and whiskey to an outlying part of the province of Nova Scotia. I say to my hon. friend that before he asks this committee to vote supplies he should give to the committee all the reports there are from his officials that would show that this vessel had been employed in the month of January in preventive work along that coast and if he has not such reports he should tell the House so. In view of the statement of a member of this House, that whisky was placed on board the steamer in connection with these political organizers, an investigation should at once be held. The strong position taken on such matters, by the Minister of Customs in the

past, makes it impossible for him to escape instituting an investigation.


John Dowsley Reid: The other day I gave the hon. member all the information I had up to that time.


William John Macdonald: You gave us no information that she went there to prevent smuggling.


John Dowsley Reid: That is the service she is employed in.


William John Macdonald: You had no information to that effect then?


John Dowsley Reid: All the officers tell me that is the service she is employed in.


William John Macdonald: Nobody told you she went up there for that purpose on this occasion?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


William John Macdonald: Order what? Do these gentlemen not know that in committee a member can speak as often as he likes; the minister is not complaining.


John Dowsley Reid: She cruises around the coast of Cape Breton for the purpose of preventing smuggling.


William John Macdonald: In the month of
January? Would the minister bring down any such statement in writing?


John Dowsley Reid: I can obtain a report from
the officials, and when I get it I will have an investigation made. I can say that it was not on any instructions from Ottawa. If the officials at Sydney have taken upon themselves to carry these gentlemen to Neil's Harbour, I cannot help it now, but I will have an investigation made and I shall not permit one of the steamers of the department to be engaged in any such work. If the hon. gentleman does not wish to let the item go through then I will have to let it stand, or, we can hold one of these items over and I can bring down the information before it is passed.


William John Macdonald: I have no desire to obstruct the passage of any legitimate item. If the minister states to this committee that he will make inquiry into the facts as desired by hon. gentlemen on this side of the House, and that he will deal with these officials in accordance with the proper principles of government in such cases, I am satisfied. I rely upon the word of the minister to that effect. But I attach the condition that the investigation must be immediate.


John Dowsley Reid: I will get all the information.


William John Macdonald: As speedily as possible?


John Dowsley Reid: As speedily as possible.


John Howard Sinclair: If the minister finds several barrels of whisky on board will he order its confiscation?


John Dowsley Reid: I should think it would be confiscated long ago.


William John Macdonald: He will not find any there now.


George William Kyte: Is it necessary that this
vessel should clear from customs when going on these trips to round up smugglers?


John Dowsley Reid: I should not think it would be necessary for a customs steamer to clear, for the reason that the captain is an acting preventive officer, and therefore there would always be a customs officer on board.
Mr. KYTE; Then there would be no entry in the customs office as to what cargo she carried?


John Dowsley Reid: I do not think so, but if there is such a record I will bring it down with the report.


Mr. TURGEON:: The minister will remember that last year I called his attention to the dismissal of the sub-collector of customs at Lameque (Shippegan), in my county. It took two investigations to discover some fault against this officer, who was a model civil servant; one of the best educated men in the county, and against whom no charge of partisanship could ever be justly made. After two investigations he was found guilty of having attended my meeting in September, 1911, and the worst charged against him was that he applauded some remarks of mine. I also pointed out to the minister that the man appointed in his place is a partisan every day of his life, and belongs to the party organization committee. The minister told me that if he ascertained that this official was guilty of partisanship he would have to stop it. Since then a municipal election took place in Gloucester county and the new appointee was the Conservative candidate, running his election on federal politics more than municipal issues. I have no fault to find with that if it is allowed to everybody. The minister in reply to a question yesterday stated that the sub-collector of customs at Lameque, as well as the sub-collector at Tracadie had not received per-

mission from him to be candidates in the municipal election, and I was pleased to have that statement. The municipal election to which I refer took place between the new appointee and the dismissed official, and some gentlemen present will be glad to hear that the dismissed official was elected by a vote of three to one against the Conservative appointee. All the same that does not carry out the pledge of the minister that if the present official was a partisan he would he dismissed. Some officials in my county have been dismissed on the sole recommendation of the defeated candidate, notwithstanding that they were no more active in politics during the fifteen years of Liberal rule than the Minister of Trade and Commerce stated publicly in the House an official might be. What will become now of this sub-collector of customs at Lameque who has been a candidate in municipal elections on a political platform, and who has been telling the people that he 'has the support of the federal Administration as well as of the Conservative Administration of New Brunswick. Will the minister take my word for it, as he has taken the word of the defeated candidate in other cases, and dismiss this man?


John Dowsley Reid: I take the word of the hon. member without question, as to the subcollector taking part in a municipal election. As I understand it, the hon. member asks that I dismiss this man for taking part in the municipal election at Gloucester. As far as I am concerned, I feel that when a person accepts a Government position he should cease to take part in any election, municipal or otherwise. It seems, however, to have been recognized, both by the late Government and the one previous to that, that Government officials are allowed to take part in municipal elections. During the last municipal contest I had quite a number of complaints that civil servants who were Liberals had taken part, and their dismissal was requested. I have also had requests made by Liberals to be allowed to run for the mayoralty and other municipal offices. During the last year or two, in so far as the Department of Customs is concerned, there have been quite a number of officials running in municipal elections at different points. The same thing applies to all the other departments, the Department of Customs being no exception. I suppose the hon. member knows that in the city of Ottawa there
are Government officials holding quite important positions, such as city [DOT] councillors and controllers. At Kingston and other places the same thing occurs. Until there is a general rule that officials in all the departments shall cease to take part in municipal elections or to occupying positions on municipal councils, I am not in a position, so far as the Department of Customs is concerned, to refuse to allow them to do .so. During the last municipal election in January, only one official, a Liberal, asked me if I would have any objection to his-running. I explained to him that, as it had been allowed for so many years and as other civil servants were running, I could, not raise any objection in his case.


John Howard Sinclair: Did the man run?*


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, and he was elected.


Onésiphore Turgeon: I believe that in the city of Ottawa any gentleman in the Civil Service or outside of it must have had enough of the city's affairs to discuss without, mingling federal politics in his canvass. But when a candidate runs in a municipal1 election more on federal politics than on municipal issues, that alters the case. If I tell the hon. minister that this gentleman is still a member of the organization in his district, will he look into the matter?


John Dowsley Reid: He must cease to be a member of the organization or else leave the service.


Onésiphore Turgeon: I am making the statement that he is still a member of the organization.


John Dowsley Reid: I will make inquiries at once. He cannot hold the two positions.


Onésiphore Turgeon: I would also ask the hon. minister to inquire as to the subcollector at Tracadie.


William John Macdonald: What inquiry is the minister to make?


John Dowsley Reid: Whether the gentleman is a member of the organization or not.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it against the rule for a Government employee to be a member of a political organization?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Mr. CARVELL:: Is that the policy of the hon. minister or the policy of the Government?


John Dowsley Reid: I can explain only in so far as my own department is concerned.


Mr. ROBB:: The hon. minister has again tonight laid down the policy of the Government as advanced last year by the hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. White). When, during the absence of the hon. minister, I called the attention of the Government to dismissals in the Department of Customs in the county of Huntingdon, I stated that I had it on an authority which the minister himself would not dispute that in the first investigation the investigator reported that there was no cause for dismissal, but that the persistent demands of so-called independent candidates resulted in the minister chopping off the heads of two custom house officials in the county of Huntingdon, thus establishing a record that the county had not had since Confederation of dismissing men for political partisanship.
To-night we have had a good deal of information from our friends from the Maritime provinces in regard to the mission of a steamer along the coast, and apparently from their statements that vessel was called into the service to distribute liquor during the by-election. That seems to be the general policy of this Government. I want the minister to take note that we shall be prepared to prove in the courts that an official of this Government, appointed by this Government, working in an office close to that of the Minister of Customs in the city of Valleyfield, operated in the by-election in the county of Chateauguay and was caught red-handed distributing whisky on voting day right opposite the polling booth. I am not going to give the minister the name of that official. I make the bald statement. I want to know if the minister is going to investigate that case, and see that that man is no longer retained in the service of the Government. It may be offered in his defence that he was on holiday at that particular time. I want further to point out to the minister that one month later, in the provincial by-election in the county of Huntingdon, the same man was operating in the Conservative interest. All the pretensions of this Government will fall to pieces unless they are prepared to take up this case and to see that this particular man attends to his business as an official of the Government and keeps out of elections.


John Dowsley Reid: Is he a customs official?


James Alexander Robb: No, but his office is next door to the customs office in the same building right across the hall; and he was appointed by this Government, I think,

within a year. I submit that the Government has no reason to be proud of that record. Our friends claim that the election at Chateauguay was a victory for their naval policy and their trade policy. In view of the fact that their own candidate ran away from the naval policy, in view of the fact that our good friend the Postmaster General, speaking in Ormstown, in French, refused to discuss the naval policy, and in view of the evidence that we have that an official of this Government was distributing whisky on election day, it seems to me that the Government will have to revise their ideas on the result of that election. I hope the hon. minister will bring this to the attention of his leader and see to it that the Government officials in Valleyfield take no further part in elections.


Mr. CROTHERS:: In referring to this
distribution of liquor, is the hon. gentleman speaking from personal knowledge or from hearsay?


James Alexander Robb: I am speaking upon the
evidence of a man who was sent out there with two witnesses, and who caught the man in the act.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: Hearsay.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Am I to understand
that the hon. gentleman said that I never
discussed the naval policy in Chateauguay?	,


James Alexander Robb: I say that I sat in the hall and listened to the hon. minister's eloquent speech at Ormstown. Speaking in English, he made a casual reference to the naval policy, and speaking in French he never mentioned it in any way whatever.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: My hon. friend must have been asleep. I had been told by the people that when the right hon. leader of the Opposition, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, the hon. member for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) and the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) were in Ormstown on the previous day, they had avoided the discussion of their own naval policy. I was asked by the gentlemen who came to see me before the meeting if I would discuss both policies, and I did so. I told the people that the gentlemen who were in Ormstown the day before, apart from some abuse that they had heaped upon us, had avoided discussing their own policy. I said, you know all about our naval policy.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: What is it?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The matter was discussed here for months last session, and I take it that the electors of Chateauguay are intelligent enough to have heard something about it. I do not think there is a man in this country who does not know what our policy was last session.


William John Macdonald: What is it now?
What is your permanent policy?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Our permanent policy does not exist. The Prime Minister has told my hon. friend that whenever there is a naval policy it will be put before the House and the people will be consulted about it. So, when the hon. member tells the House and the country that we did not discuss the naval policy on that occasion he is entirely wrong. I told the people what the Bill presented to Parliament last session was, and I said: We are going to discuss the naval policy as formulated by [DOT]the right hon. the leader of the Opposition. So the people heard what they had not been told on the previous day, and the result was that on election day we had a majority of seventy-five in Ormstown.


James Alexander Robb: Allow me to correct the hon. Postmaster General. In Ormstown, where he spoke, there was a Liberal majority at the last by-election, whereas in 1911 there was a Conservative majority.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: My hon. friend does
not even know the result of the polling in Ormstown; I was sure he had been asleep. As a matter of fact, in 1911, there was a majority of twenty-six against us in Ormstown, and at the by-eleotion there was a majority of seventy-five in our favour.


James Alexander Robb: The minister is talking about the parish. I repeat that in the village of Ormstown there v as a Liberal majority.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I was not speaking
only of the village; I was speaking of the whole place.


William F. Carroll: Last year while the
Estimates for the Customs Department were before the House, I brought to the attention of the minister a grievance which some businessmen of Whitney Pier, which is a part of the city of Sydney, had in respect of the sub-collector of customs at that point, Mr. McDonald. They brought to my attention the fact that he is a merchant and an importer of goods, and that he carries on business in three different stores in the city. They instructed me to ask the minister whether or not it was within the knowledge of the hon. gentleman or of 28
his department that this gentleman was an importer of goods. I do not make any charge against this gentleman; I am only placing before the minister the complaint of the merchants to whom I have referred, that his being an importer of goods might cause him to have some advantage over them. At the time I brought the matter to the attention of the minister, he promised me that he would let the House know whether it would be the policy of the Government to allow importers of goods to act as customs collectors or sub-collectors. The House rose shortly after that, and I presume the minister did not have time to bring down the information. If he has not the information now, I hope he will get it and bring it down before his Estimates are all put through.


John Dowsley Reid: It certainly is against the
rules of the department for any one occupying any such position to act as collector of customs. Obviously he would have an advantage over the other merchants, as he would see their invoices, the prices of their goods, and so on. When the hon. member brought the matter to my attention, I certainly must have referred it to the officials of the department, and no doubt there is a report on file. I will look into the matter to-morrow, and if this official is still engaged in the business to which my hon. friend refers he certainly must give up either his business or the position. Of course in some smaller places where the revenue is not very great, the salary of the official is so very small that there would be no objection to a farmer, for instance, acting as collector, but a merchant is certainly objectionable, and I cannot understand how the official can be continuing in that business and holding his office at the *same time. I shall look up the report on the matter and the hon. member will get it without fail.


Charles Marcil: I would like to have it
(Stated clearly whether or not officials of the Department of Customs are free to be candidates in municipal elections, and to take an active part in municipal life?


John Dowsley Reid: This has been allowed in all the other departments. The matter was brought to my attention this year by one of our inspectors, who asked me if I had any objection to his taking part in municipal elections. I suppose it was really a political election too. I think his opponent was likely on the opposition side of polities. It was going on all over the country.


Charles Marcil: No order has been issued?


John Dowsley Reid: No, and I have had complaints that certain Liberal customs officers took part in municipal elections and people have 'wanted them dismissed. On the other hand, the hon. member for Gloucester gives me an instance the other way, and I think there should be some rule. At the same time there is no general rule.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Some years ago a rule was issued by the Customs Department forbidding persons in the customs outside service to become candidates in municipal elections. In the province of Nova Scotia, in many instances, to my own knowledge, persons desirous of becoming municipal candidates who were in the customs service were prevented from running by the Minister of Customs. This rule may not have been observed in all cases, but I know of my own knowledge that customs officers contemplating entering municipal elections received word from the Minister of Customs that they could only do so on penalty of losing their offices. Further, in September and October of last year, the customs service was circularized by the Department at Ottawa in the same direction and persons in the service were told that they must not be candidates in municipal elections. I know that an order was made five or six years ago in connection with this matter. I think the minister is mistaken in saying that his department permitted anybody to take part in municipal elections as they saw fit. I think it is a rule that has been pretty generally observed in the past by the Customs Department.


William Cameron Edwards: Does the hon. member say that the previous Government forbade officers being candidates for municipal elections?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I say that an order to that effect was issued by the Customs Department, and in Nova Scotia it was fairly well observed. Of my own knowledge I know of two persons who were told that they should not be candidates in municipal contests.


William Cameron Edwards: It was not observed in Ontario. If that order was made to apply to Nova Scotia I would assume it would apply to the other provinces, and I can assure my hon. friend it did not apply in Ontario. A very estimable gentleman was a candidate for several years in Kingston, a very high customs official in that city and an adherent of the Liberal party, but a man who as customs officer took no part

in politics. This year, following the natural course of events, he ran in Kingston for mayor. There could not have been any general rule to prohibit customs officers [DOT]taking part in municipal elections. If there was in Ontario it was honoured more in the breach than in the observance.


James Alexander Robb: Referring again to the
Chateauguay elections, from a report I have here, taken from the Montreal Gazette, giving the result of the polls in the village of Ormstown, where the minister spoke, poll No. 11, I see that Morris had 79 votes and Fisher 95, a majority of 16 for Fisher, and the large majorities in the parish of Ormstown were in those particular polls where the Government official had been operating.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: What is the use of splitting hairs? Ormstown comprises the township of Ormstown and the village of Ormstown. If you take those two places combined-and we had in our audience people not only from the small village but people from all over the township, the member knows that well, as the hall was crowded-and the people who voted the following day were not only the people of the village but of the whole township. If my hon. friend, who seems to have lost his memory as to what took place on that day, will refer not only to the village but to the whole township of Ormstown he will see that what I represented is true, that the majority of the Conservative candidate was 75.


Mr. RHODES:: The hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean), I have no doubt,, was trusting to his memory in making his observation that under the previous Administration the Minister of Customs laid down the law that customs officers should not participate in municipal elections.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Not at all; I know it as a fact.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have a very distinct,
recollection of discussing the question with the late Minister of Customs four or five sessions ago for at least an hour, when I gave him specific instances where some collectors of customs were candidates for positions as councillors in elections run on straight party lines. Not only was I unable to get redress in cases of partisanship, but I was unable to get the late Minister of Customs to lay down the law that officials should not be permitted to run. What L believe is that collectors of customs in receipt of a fairly good salary ought not ta

be permitted to take part in municipal contests which are conducted along party lines and I think the sooner we come to an understanding in this country so that we will have one general policy for all Administrations the better. We will thus save this recrimination and bickering back and forth about petty officials and positions.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the minister inquire if his department did not, within six months, circularize the outside service against participation in municipal elections?


John Dowsley Reid: I shall certainly do so, I have no recollections of the circular.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have here ' Hansard '
of the session of 1910-11, at page 1055, of which the hon. member will find a full statement covering several pages, setting forth the position I took at the time.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I know and have personal knowledge of two cases at least where objections were made by electors of a municipal district against a certain person being a candidate who was in the customs service, occupying, of course, some minor position; and by reason of these protests he was requested by the Minister of Customs to withdraw from the contest.


William Cameron Edwards: By what Government
was he appointed?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: By the late Government.


John Dowsley Reid: What surprises me, if that
circular was sent out, is that it must have been sent to all officials and yet within the last few months many officials have taken part in these municipal contests and quite a number of them are not in sympathy with the Government. I have had complaints about customs employees appointed by my predecessor taking part in a municipal contest at Yarmouth, I think it was.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Perhaps it was
Annapolis county.


John Dowsley Reid: Perhaps the hon. member for Yarmouth would know if any such officials in Yarmouth took part in the municipal elections?


Bowman Brown Law: None whatever.


Mr. DAVIDSON:: The junior member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean) has referred to Annapolis county. I may say in regard to that, that under the late Government there was a sub-collector of customs by the name of Mr. Porter who was a councillor and 28J
who ran in the Liberal interests. I wrote to the then Minister of Customs and asked him if it were not against the rules of his department to allow one of his officers to act on a municipal council, and I was given the reply that there was no such rule. As a matter of fact Mr. Porter sat in the municipal council for a great many years.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That was not the gentleman I had in mind at all when I interrupted. The minister was asked if a request had not been made for the removal of an official of his department for taking part in some municipal election. I do not claim that it is objectionable for an official to take part in a municipal election. I am more interested in the proposition that customs officials should not be candidates. I was told that one officer of the customs at Bridgetown, by the name of Mr. Hicks, was dismissed from office in December or January, 1913, because his son had taken part in a municipal election.


Avard Longley Davidson: My hon. friend is misinformed in regard to that. No official in Annapolis county was dismissed on any such grounds as that. The firm to which this collector of customs belongs had tried to cajole voters at that municipal election, but that was not the cause for which the official was removed.


George William Kyte: I think some good purpose is being served by this discussion. If is perhaps an opportune time to ask the Minister of Customs to lay down some rule which could be observed universally throughout the country. The observations made by the junior member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean), are absolutely correct and within my own knowledge, although possibly the circular sent out by the late Minister of Customs might not be described as ' instructions ' to customs officers not to take part in municipal politics. I am aware, however, tlat recommendations to that effect were issued to the warden of the county which I represent. He is a most competent official and highly qualified to discharge the duties of warden of the county. Six years ago I remember he was again asked to stand for his district in the municipal council, and he wrote to the Minister of Customs asking if any objection would be raised to him occupying a position on the municipal council, and as a result of the reply received by him from the late Minister of Customs, that gentleman did not offer as

a candidate and has not since been a candidate in the county of Richmond. Whether that rule is universal or not I am not aware, but I say that the late minister recommended that it would be better for that gentleman to take no part in municipal politics.


John Dowsley Reid: So far as I aim concerned, I believe that every customs official should cease to take part in municipal elections or any other elections. I think, however, that if customs officials are prevented, the rule should be universal throughout the whole Service; it should apply to all departments. So far as I am concerned, I have not changed any rule that was in existence when I came into office in this regard. I am satisfied that if the records of the recent municipal elections throughout the Dominion were looked up, we should probably find as many officials of one political faith as of the other, who were candidates in the municipal elections. Of course there are places where it might be necessary for an official to take part in the election, say, in some new town. I remember receiving a letter about a year ago from an official in a new town asking me whether he could take office in the council, and I advised him that at the expiration of lids term of office it would be better for him to keep out of municipal contests altogether. I think that is what should be done and hope that some rule of that kind will be put into force throughout the whole service.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have a very distinct
recollection of two cases during the last fifteen years, where an official was refused the right to take part in municipal elections. One was a case that occurred in Fredericton, concerning an inspector of fisheries, who wished to be a candidate for mayor. He was denied that right. That brings up the general question. My hon. friend the Minister of Justice has stated that in his judgment every official should be debarred the right to take part in municipal elections. I cannot agree with that, although perhaps in saying so I may not be in accord with the opinions of hon. gentlemen on this side. It seems to me that a rule should be laid down providing that the man who earns his living as an official, the man who receives sufficient salary on which to live, should be a public official and mind his own business. But the man who gets only a small amount of money, such as a poor preventive officer or a man in charge of a country post office

getting $35 a year, these are the men who should not be deprived of the right of citizenship. These men should be allowed to exercise their right and they should not lose their jobs when a new Government comes in, because, they have exercised their right of citizenship. But as I said before, in the case of a man earning his whole living in the public service, an entirely different principal should prevail, and I think it would be well for the Government to lay down some rule which would be fair and reasonable to compel Government officials to be Government officials and to allow the other men to be men amongst men and exercise the right which everybody supposes them to have.


Mr. BUCHANAN:: I want to prefer a
very serious charge against the Minister of Customs, a charge that may bring about his removal from the Government. The charge is this:	he has been spreading a
very strong free trade sentiment in my constituency. I do not object to that, but I know his friends in my constituency do. A special officer was .sent to the customs port at Coutts during the past year. He was very active, and some of his offences were so serious that Conservatives were repeatedly going over to the Liberal ranks. I will instance a few cases, and in bringing this matter to the attention of the minister I may say that I am very anxious that he should keep this officer on the move throughout the whole country, because his operations will be of great assistance to the Liberal party. In one case a man drove across the boundary from Coutt's to Sweet-grass, Montana, and had luncheon at Sweet-grass because there did not happen to be an hotel at Coutts. He had a sheep camp at the boundary and while he was over he bought a pound of butter. When he came back his entire outfit, team of horses, wagon and pound of butter were seized and he had to go to Lethbridge and get another outfit. He had to put up the value of the team of horses and wagon, and the matter was in the hands of the Department of Customs for some time. There was another case far more serious than that. A gentleman living on the Canadian side of the line crossed to Sweetgrass, got a package of tobacco and when he came over the line the package of tobacco was seized. Innumerable cases of this kind have done a great deal to help free trade sentiment, and I only hope that the Minister of Customs will keep this man going about the country, not so much in the West, because

the sentiment is very strong there at the present time, but through the East. His name is Hughes and that is a name that is very helpful to the Liberal party.


William F. Carroll: I wish to bring to the
attention of the hon. Minister of Customs the matter of a return for which I asked last year. It was in connection with the dismissal of the collector of customs at the port of Glace Bay-Mr. M. J. McKinnon. There were two investigations into the charges that were preferred against Mr. McKinnon, and I was instructed by Mr. Duche-min on the occasion of the second investigation that his report, including the evidence taken in the first investigation, had been sent to the department. I got the documents in relation to the second investigation, and I brought to the attention of the minister, here in the corridors last spring, the fact that the return of papers I had asked for was not complete in that it did not contain the report of the first investigation into the charges of political partisanship. I wish to ask the minister if he will kindly bring down to the House the report of the first investigation including the evidence taken by the commissioner. I may tell him that I reqfiire this as I intend to discuss some phases of this dismissal when the Estimates for the outside service are brought down.


John Dowsley Reid: Is the hon. gentleman sure
I did not bring that down? I brought down some reports the other day.


William F. Carroll: I got part of it last winter.


John Dowsley Reid: I know I brought down some the other day and I thought that was included in the return. I shall bring down that report to-morrow.


George William Kyte: While on this matter I desire to call the attention of the Minister of Customs to the case of the dismissal of Martin Johnston, preventive officer at Red Islands. This dismissal took place shortly after the present Government came into office and the reason given by the minister for the dismissal was that there was nothing for this officer to do and that his services were on that account dispensed with. But I was able to remind the minister that a few weeks afterwards they appointed another preventive officer to take his place.


John Dowsley Reid: At the same point?


George William Kyte: Oh, yes, practically the
same point. I desired to know
10 p.m. what the salary of the new preventive officer was, which information has not been given to me, and I would be glad if the minister would get the information. Michael E. Gilles of Irish Cove was appointed in his place, and I want to know what the salary of Mr. Gilles is and what salary Mr. Johnston enjoyed while he was in office.
Customs-Salaries and contingent expenses of the several ports in the Dominion, including pay for over-time officers, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $3,590,000.


John Dowsley Reid: I will explain this item.
The vote for the fiscal year 1913-14 was $3,290,000, and we are asking for $300,000 more this year. The total salaries of the officers employed at the various ports of the Dominion were, when the estimate was prepared, $2,760,445. The contingent expenses for the nine months ended 31st December, 1913, amounted to $337,845, and it is estimated that for the whole fiscal year we will require $394,745. Add to this the net over-time as expended during the year 1912-13 amounting to $124,000. That is to remunerate landing waiters and officers who work evertime at the different ports. That makes a total estimated expenditure of $3,279,190. From this total we deduct the estimated bonded warehouse refunds, based on those of the previous year, amounting to $32,000, bringing the estimated expenditure to $3,247,190. We ask for $3,590,000, there being an increase of $342,810 over the estimate of last year.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I suppose the largest increase is in the port of Montreal?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Would the hon. gentleman be kind enough to inform the House as to the number of customs officers that he found when he assumed office, and the increase in the numbers and salaries in the first, second and present years?


John Dowsley Reid: I will make a note of that
so that I will be able to give the hon. gentleman the information. I could not give it offhand. I will get it for him before we pass these Estimates.


John Howard Sinclair: Would the minister at
thfe same time give us the total number of officers that he has appointed and dismissed in the whole Dominion of Canada since he assumed office?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Inasmuch as the Minister of Customs has, I think, only these items on page 96 to pass, I think he should not press for a vote to-night, but that we should take them up some other evening, because we have not had an opportunity of looking into them.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I would like to get the names and the increases in salaries for the port of Quebec for the same years when we take up these Estimates again.
Civil Government-Department of Railways and Canals, $201,150.


John Dowsley Reid: The Minister of Kail-ways cannot be here to-night, as he is not permitted to come out after dinner, and I would ask hon. gentlemen to pass these items. One assistant engineer is dropped in A1 and an assistant engineer is appointed to Bl. In B2 there are two additional clerkships of $1,200 each, and in A3 five new clerks at salaries ranging from $500 to $1,200 per annum.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: None of these are in the Moncton office?


John Dowsley Reid: No.


William John Macdonald: Is the salary of Mr. Gutelius included in this?


John Dowsley Reid: No.


William John Macdonald: I would like the
minister to bring down at as early a date as possible the Order in Council appointing Mr. Gutelius. The friends of the Government in the Maritime provinces are told when they ask something from the minister: Mr. Gutelius says it cannot be done. We would like to know whether Mr. Gutelius is bigger than the minister and just what his duties are.


John Dowsley Reid: The Order in Council will be
brought down.


William John Macdonald: I would like also to have all the papers brought down in connection with the purchase of American coal by the Department of Railways in the month of December last. To-day the coal miners of Nova Scotia are lacking work, and it is rather unsatisfactory to know that the Government railway purchased coal in Pennsylvania, brought it by rail to Massena Springs, took it from Massena Springs to Levis and paid the freight on it to that point; while at the same time it declined the opportunity to haul coal over its own railway from the mines along the Intercolonial railway. There are quite a number of small mines, particularly, which are to-
,
day stopping for want of orders, and a great many others are working half time.


John Dowsley Reid: The papers will be brought down and they will give all the information. I think I am right in stating that the coal companies informed Mr. Gutelius that they could not supply coal at the time it was wanted.


William John Macdonald: That is true with regard to two of the largest coal companies. The trouble is that the Government did not pursue their inquiries among a large number of other companies which could have supplied the coal. As a matter of fact, in the month of January when they purchased that coal, they proceeded to stop the delivery of coal by the larger companies in the province. To say that, all of a sudden, the Intercolonial railway should demand 1,500 tons of coal, to the exclusion of other purchasers, is not fair, when all they had to do was to wait their turn and they could get the coal and haul it over their own railway. I want all the information brought down at once, because I intend to discuss the subject very fully later on.


George William Kyte: Apparently the department, according to the detailed statement in the Estimates, is going to employ five additional solicitors, at salaries ranging from $1,000 down.


John Dowsley Reid: There is only one department solicitor.


George William Kyte: If that is so the item is very badly worded, because any person reading it would take it to mean that there were to be five departmental solicitors appointed. Who is the departmental solicitor for whom a salary of $4,000 is provided?


John Dowsley Reid: No one has been selected for that position up to the present time.


George William Kyte: What is Mr. Aylward's position in the department?


John Dowsley Reid: He was departmental solicitor, but he is down at Moncton now, and not in the department. This is to fill the position formerly occupied by him.


George William Kyte: Then there would appear to be a number of right-of-way agents, with salaries ranging from $3,600 down. Are all these officials to be added to the staff of the department here?


John Dowsley Reid: No; that represents the number of officials in that subdivision. There

were fourteen in the subdivision last year and this year there is one less. The right oi way and lease agent is Mr. R. H. Fraser. The other officials are men who have been there for years, and have been advanced to these positions.


William John Macdonald: Has Mr. Fraser been appointed recently?


John Dowsley Reid: He was appointed some time ago.


William John Macdonald: Where is he from?


John Dowsley Reid: He is from Nova Scotia, I think.


William John Macdonald: Does he come from my county?


John Dowsley Reid: I think so.


George William Kyte: [DOT] Does the hon. minister know the position that Mr. C. Campbell holds at
*the present time?


John Dowsley Reid: I can give the names of the fourteen officials. The position of departmental solicitor is vacant. L. K. Jones, Assistant Deputy Minister; E. V. Johnson, inspecting engineer; John Murphy, electrical engineer; J. L. Payne, comptroller of statistics; R. H. Fraser, right of way and lease agent; G. A. Bell, financial comptroller; L. Sherwood, principal assistant and designing engineer; W. C. Little, accountant and superintendent of stationery; F. A. Dixon, chief of correspondence; G. A. Mothersill, auditing engineer; W. V. Cope, departmental auditor. There is one position vacant, that of assistant engineer. Last year %ve had another assistant engineer, but that position has been dropped this year. Mr. C. Campbell would not be on the list, a3 this is only for employees in the building.


William John Macdonald: You have made five additions to the third division, subdivision A. What are they for?


John Dowsley Reid: Those positions have not been filled. They are clerkships at $900 each.


William John Macdonald: Under the Civil Service Act?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes, they will be appointed by the commission.


William John Macdonald: Will they be employed in the department here?


John Dowsley Reid: Yes.


William John Macdonald: Will the minister
tell us anything about extending the Civil Service rules to that branch of the Department of Railways and Canals at Moncton?


John Dowsley Reid: I cannot give the hon. gentleman any information about that. I went into these Estimates with the officials, in order to understand them thoroughly so far as the inside service at Ottawa is concerned, and nothing further.


William John Macdonald: A statement has
been made in the'press in the province of Nova Scotia that the department contemplate the construction of a diversion of the railway in the eastern part of the province, and that there is to be a new part of the railway constructed along the north shore of Nova Scotia east of New Glasgow. I would like the minister to bring down what correspondence there has been with Mr. R. P. Fraser of Pictou with regard to that diversion of the line.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House ad-[DOT]journed at 10.20 p.m.
Wednesday, February 4, 1914.