1914-03-06

PRIVATE BILL.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 97, to incorporate the All Red Line Railway Company.-Mr. Fripp.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Mr. Borden, Bill No. 90, to amend an Act relating to the establishment and expenses of the International Joint Commission under the waterways treaty of January 11, 1909 was read the second time,
[Stage Direction]
and the House went into Committee thereon. Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
On section 2-salary of secretary increased :
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: What is the meaning of this?


Mr. BORDEN:: The secretary of the United States section of the commission receives a salary of $4,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: You are giving the Canadian secretary the .same salary?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: Who is the secretary now?


Robert Laird Borden: Mt. Burpee.
On section 3-payment of expenses:


Mr. BIORDEN:: The original statute was like this, with the exception of the use of the words 'Minister of Public Works,' and with the following addition:
And the commissioners are further authorized to expend an amount to be fixed by the Minister of Public Works, not in excess of $3,000 per annum, for office accommodation, equipment and supplies.
It has been found difficult to bring the expenses for these purposes within the limit named, and it was thought that if they were limited to an amount to be determined by the 'commissioners and approved by the Secretary of State for External Affairs, there would be a sufficient safeguard.


Wilfrid Laurier: The only
change is that of doing away with the limit of $3,000. I would suggest that my hon. friend had better substitute for that sum such other amount, $4,000, $5,000 or $6,000, as he things advisable.
^ * V, I *


Robert Laird Borden: I would have no objection to that; there might be some advantage in doing so. It will be necessary to make some inquiries as to the statutory allowance, and in the meantime perhaps the matter might stand.
Progress reported.



VOLUNTEER BOUNTY ACT AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Hon. W. J. Roche (Minister of the Interior), the House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to amend the Volunteer Bounty Act, and its amending

Acts, by providing that the time within which any grantee or his duly qualified substitute may surrender to the Crown all rights under the said Volunteer Bounty Act, 1908, and may thereupon be paid the sum of five hundred dollars out of such moneys as are voted for that purpose by Parliament, to be extended to the 31st December, 1914.
Mir. BELAND:: This does not affect the Volunteer Bounty Act which was passed about two years ago in connection with the Department of Militia?


Mr. ROCHE:: It has nothing to do with that.


Henri Sévérin Béland: As the Minister of Militia is not in his seat, can the hon. minister give any information as to whether legislation will be introductd to provide for an extension of time with regard to the other bounty Act?	'	.


William Roche: Yes.


Mr. KNOWLES:: How many certificates are outstanding?


William Roche: Forty-eigh*


William Erskine Knowles: How many persons have taken advantage of the legislation of a year ago?


William Roche: I have not the figures before me, but I may say that there was a provision in last year's Bill whereby those who did not file upon their land by October 31, 1913, would, by surrendering their certificates to the department, receive the sum of $500. It appears that quite a number of persons were not aware of the fact that in order to obtain this amount it was necessary that they should surrender their certificates before that date, and it is in order to extend the time within which they may surrender their certificates that this resolution is introduced.


William Erskine Knowles: I think we should have information as to how many persons took advantage of the opportunity afforded them a year ago for taking a cash surrender.


William Roche: I think 'comparatively few have done so. As I have said, forty-eight certificates are still outstanding. I will obtain the information and give it to my hon. friend on the second reading of the Bill.


Mr. CARVELL:: Will the minister not
make a finality of this matter in the proposed legislation? The matter has been before Parliament at least four times, possibly more.

It seems to me to be worse than unfair to extend this repeatedly. Every time this matter comes up in Parliament-and I think I can blame the former minister as much as the present minister-we have been promised that this would be the end, that there would be no more extensions of time; and yet, every year, there is a further extension, not for the benefit of the volunteer, but really for that of the speculator. I venture to say that out of the forty-eight there are not four that are in the hands of the men who earned them; they are practically all in the hands of specu lators. Why should this Parliament year after year pass legislation simply to protect a few men who have gambled in land and lost. It is putting a premium on gambling.


William Roche: I think the hon. member
is confused between the two cases. This is not an extension of time to file on their lands; this is an extension of the time within which they can present their certificates and get the cash grant of $500. The hon. member is in error in saying that there have been repeated extensions for the purpose of this resolution. Last year was the first extension of this kind. There has been quite a number of extensions for the time of filing, but last year an extension was granted largely on the representations of the hon. member for Edmonton, who pointed out some hardships on certain men by reason of the preceding extensions, which he thought should be given consideration. The matter was considered during my absence, although I introduced the amendment to the Bill, but I purposely made it the 31st of October so that there would be no misunderstanding in the country. A pledge was given in the House during the last session that no further extension would be granted for filing on the land. That has been lived up to; but last year was the first year in which a cash appropriation was made by which those who did not file on the land could secure the $500. I am extending the time because I thought it was a hardship, that a good many of those who held the grants were not aware that the extension of time to surrerfder their certificates had expired at the same time as the extension to file upon the land, so I am merely providing an extension of the time at which they can surrender the certificates and get the $500. The information asked for I can furnish on the second reading of the Bill.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I quite appreciate the
distinction my hon. friend draws, and there is some reason in it. On the other hand, my hon. friend must confess that while he has carried out the pledge made by the Minister of Public Works -that there would be no further extension of the time literally, he has not carried it out practically. My hon. friend has been in public life long enough to know that you cannot devise a condition of affairs in which some interested party will not come here and represent that he has been misled and apply for a change of the law. Undoubtedly they can make more money by holding off -and asking the minister to exend the time.


William Roche: How can they make more money?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They will in some way come back and say -that they have held the land a long time iand they think they should get, instead of $500, $700 or $800. I do not say the minister will grant it but they will ask for it. In ,my own province there were hundreds of these volunteers; in my own town I think we had forty or fifty. We are innocent people down east and we believe the substance of the law and many volunteers sold out their scrip for $150 or $160, because they believed what Parliament said. Some got $400 or $500 and some who were not so innocent got as high as $800 or $900. However, they were all sold and bought by -speculators, most of whom are in the city of Winnipeg. Now the speculator has found that he has gambled an<J lost and Parliament. intervenes in order to protect him against an unsound business proposition. He should pocket his loss as any of the rest of us do when we make an unprofitable business -speculation. I do not suppose my protest will defeat the Bill but if I had power to defeat it I would do so.
Mr. RO-OHE: If we were asking an extension of th-e time in which these warrants might be filed on the land the hon. gentleman's argument would be quite appropriate but it is not appropriate to the present amendment of the Act which I propose to introduce. It is impossible for men to make more money by delaying and it is not the intention to amend the Act to increase the amount to more than $500. Five hundred it is, -and no matter how long they may hold it they cannot make another dollar out of it because they cannot -speculate with it. *1 have never given my pledge in the House about it, but this is the only



time an extension has been granted for the $500 and it is the only time there will be such an extension. If they do not see fit to surrender their certificates by the 31st of December, 1914, they will have to go without their money. The best evidence that the holders of these certificates did not surrender them because they were unaware of this provision of the Act is that they had nothing to gain by holding.


An hon. MEMBER:: And you had the
use of the money in the meantime.


William Roche: And we had the use of the money in the meantime.	'


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They will expect interest upon that.


William Roche: They will make application but their application will receive no consideration other than is provided for >y last year's Act.


Mr. BOIVIN:: Has the minister any information in his department by which be can tell who are the holders of the scrip?


William Roche: We have not the names of the holders but we can tell as to whether they are the original holders or not.


Georges Henri Boivin: Would it not be advisable to send notice to these people that this will be the last extension in order that their rights might be protected?


William Roche: We could do so.


Mr. EMMERSON:: I would like to ask
the minister if it would not be possible to restrict the advantage of the renewals to the original holders of the certificates. There may be some equities in their case but I think there are no equities in the case of the speculators who held these certificates previously to the 31st October. To my mind there is a very great distinction between the equities of the one and the claims of the other. One has equities, the other has claims. The position taken by the minister is a reasonable one if we apply his argument in favour of the original holders, the one who earned the grant, the one to whom the certifi 'ate was granted and to whom ad the advantages of it should apply.
Right Hon. Sir WILFRID LAHRIER [DOT] My hon. friend the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Roche) is very technical when he says that this is the first instance of a renewal for a grant of money. There have been renewals once or twice under this Act but these renewals were not to get a money grant, but to allow the holders of the certificates fur-

ther time to file their claims. They were allow one renewal and then another. This is a renewal to allow them to make an application for a grant of money which they had earned by their failure to apply for the land. But this distinction is a very technical one after all. We have amended the Act once, twice and three times over. I do not say that the legislation this year may not be justified by the circumstances, a knowledge of which may be in the possession of the minister. Last year,- at the time of the last renewal, I think a sufficient reason was given why the Act should be renewed but it was understood that it would be the last time. There must be some finality to this matter. My hon. friend asks for this legislation; it is exceptional legislation and legislation which is exceptional in its character ought to be supported by good and sufficient reasons. The only reproach I have to make to my hon. friend's that he has not fortified himself with sufficient reasons if we are to judge by those which he has given to the House. I do not intend to oppose the resolution at this stage but before the matter comes up again for discussion on the second reading of the Bill my hon. friend must lay on the Table of the House all the reasons which he has and which, in his opinion, are sufficient to justify such legislation so that every member of the House may be in a position to judge whether or not there ought to be another extension of time.


William Erskine Knowles: I would like to ask the minister what he does in connection with persons who have entered upon the land, who, of course, have covenanted to perform the homestead duties and against whom there is an application for cancellation. What does the minister do with these people? Does he cancel them off the face of the earth or give them credit for what they have done?


William Roche: What is that?


William Erskine Knowles: We will suppose that A paid a thousand dollars to buy a South African warrant, he has entered on the land and through unforeseen circumstances he has.not been able to perform the homestead duties and the entry is cancelled; what does the minister do with that man? Does that man get any compensation or is he out his thousand dollars?


William Roche: He is out his thousand
dollars.


William Erskine Knowles: When a volunteer or his substitute has entered for a specific piece

of land, does the minister ever permit the entrant to change his land?


William Roche: I have no knowledge of any instance of the kind having taken place. I do not think there has been any application of that kind before me. I have no recollection of such a case.


William Erskine Knowles: Will the minister be
kind enough to get information on that point because I remember it was a very important, and quite a difficult, point When the former Government were in power? Men sometimes made a mistake, or were misinformed, about the land, it was not worth what they paid for the scrip and consequently they did not perform any of the duties. I would like to know what the practice of the department is in that and other cases.


Mr. NEELY:: I would like very much to have heard the reasons that the minister has in mind for proposing his legislation. I would like to have known at whose instance the minister has introduced it. Is it for the sake of the original holders of the scrip or for the sake of the substitutes who purchased this scrip for speculative purposes? That is the information that I think the committee is fairly entitled to before the minister should ask us to agree to this resolution. It seems to me that we are never going to get to the end of this South African veteran's scrip proposition. Year after year we have granted extensions and now we are confronted with the question of an extension of time for the payment of this $500 to the holders of the scrip. What reasons have the substitutes who hold the scrip given to the minister Why they did not take advantage of the provision by which they might surrender the scrip last year for $500? Why did they not do it? If the holders of the scrip failed to take advan-take of that provision why is Parliament asked this year to extend the time for the presentation of the scrip?


William Roche: I have already given all the information, but I have no objection to giving the reasons over again. In the first place, it was brought to my attention by the officers of my department that they were in receipt of a number of letters from the holders of these warrants, some of whom had sent down their certificates since the 31st of October, 1913, and had asked for the $500. The officers of the department had to write to these persons telling them that their' warrants were of no use now because they had not sur-894
rendered them to the department within the time specified by the Act of last year. This was owing to the fact that the holders were not aware that the extension covered the surrendering of their certificates; they thought it applied only to filing on the lands. They did not know that it was necessary to send their certificates in and register them in the department within that date. It is because of their request for the payment of the $500 grant since the 31st October, that my officials think there should be an amendment covering that part of the Act.


Mr. McCEANEY:: I understand that the minister has stated that forty-eight scrips will be affected. How many of these scrips are in the hands of the original holders and how many in the hands of assignees ?


William Roche: That question has been asked me on two occasions, and I said that I would be able to give the House all the information on the second reading of the Bill. I do not remember how many of the forty-eight certificates are in the hands of the original owners, but I presume there are not very many.


Mr. McKENZIE:: I would like to ask the minister if this extension only applies to the holders of certificates who hold them at the expiration-of the former Act?


William Roche: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: In case of the transfer of one of these warrants after the 31st of October, 1913, this legislation would not apply ?


William Roche: No.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This legislation is very closely akin to another volunteer bounty matter, and I beg your indulgence, Mr. Chairman, for bringing to the notice of the minister the situation in respect to the Act which was passed in 1912 with reference to the Fenian Eaid bounty. The Act of the 1st of April, 1912, expired on the last day of 1913, and about 16,000 applications were then in. Some of these were passed upon by the department and some are being held for consideration, and I understand there is no authority to deal with them one way or the other. We aTe receiving a great many inquiries as to when the Government will be able to deal with these applications, which have not yet been passed upon. I understand that 14,000 applicants have been paid, and those who have not been paid and who stood in the same ranks with the others, are sensitive

about the matter and feel that they have been discriminated against. I wish to know when the Government purposes taking power to finally deal with this subject and wind it up.


Robert Laird Borden: I understand that the
Minister of Militia has already stated to the House that legislation will be introduced this session. I shall draw the attention of the minister to the observations of my hon. friend.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My recollection is that
these warrants were issued to the volunteers, and there was a provision in the law that they were not assignable more than once. In order to get around that, the volunteer assigned in blank, and the holder simply fills in his name when the warrant is brought to the department. Has the minister information as to who are the actual present holders of these forty-eight warrants?


William Roche: The department would have information as to how many are in the hands of the original owners, tout the department has no information as to those others who hold the warrants at the present time.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: These warrants might
pass through a dozen different hands and the minister would only know the name of the person who surrenders the warrant to the department.


William Roche: I do not know anything
about the number of hands they would pass through, but whatever information there is in the department I shall bring down.


George Ewan McCraney: Last year the Minister of the Interior was not able to take charge of the Bill, for reasons which we all regretted, and it was in the hands of the Minister of Labour, who was acting Minister of the Interior. When the Bill came before the House, I urged that if the scrip were worth $500 up to the 31st of October, it should be worth that amount after the 31st of October, and I asked the acting minister that he should name a day, subsequent to the date on which the scrip might be located, for the redemption in money. The acting minister said that the 31st of October was the last day for the redemption in money, and he would not consider the suggestion I made, but which evidently has impressed itself upon the mind of the minister (Mr. Roche): that there should be extension of time given for the payment of the money. What reasons

have impressed themselves upon the present minister, to have additional legislation this year, which did not occur to tne acting minister last year?
Resolution reported, read the first and the second time, and agreed to.
Mr. ROCHE thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 98, to amend the Volunteer Bounty Act, 1908, and Acts amending the same.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first
time.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply. Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
Excise-Salaries of officers and inspectors of excise, and to provide for increase depending on the result of excise examinations, $565,278.75.
['Yes.\nBill reported, read the third time and passed.']
Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I did not want to
bother the minister when this item was under consideration last night, but there are some things I would like to know now. Are these promotion examinations conducted under the Civil Service Commission; who sets the questions and passes upon the papers?


Mr. NANTEL:: The result of the examination before the Civil Service Commission is brought before a board composed of the superior officers of the department, Mr. Lawlor, Mr. Gow, and other inspectors.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Are those questions
printed and are they available to the public, so that they can see the nature of the questions? Taking any special case, I would like to know the nature of the paper set for a candidate for promotion.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The questions relate to the excise and manufactures. They are not submitted to the public, but are handed to the applicants at the examination.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Are they written examinations?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: They are not competitive examinations?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The examinations for
special-class excisemen are competitive.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This item is composed of two parts: one part is for increase and the other is for new officers. How much is for new officers and how much for increase?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The increase of $37,471.75 i.3 for deputy collectors-class B. The increase especially for the third-class' officers is $10,975. The new appointments in that class are: A. Boucher, J. A. Oliver, John Fry, F. H. Farnsworth, E. McNally, G. X.
Bainey, J. E. Barrette, J. 0.
4 p.m. Prevosfc, J. Prevost, G. O'Neil, P. E. C. Joubert, Geo. Boux, B. M. Miller. They reach respectively $700 and $800 a year.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: After taking off the
amount for the pay of these new officers, what is left to be applied to the increase ?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: There is a regular increase by regulation for about thirteen employees, receiving an increase of $100 a year for a portion of a year. Some receive $75 for nine months; others $50 for five or six months, * and the balance $25 for three months.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is there enough left,
after payment of the fixed charges, for the payment of the new officers?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I understand that the minister has made a new appointment at Sydney. C.B. What is his salary?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We have appointed Mr. E.	T. MacKeen, at a salary of $900 a year.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is Mr. MacKeen receiving that salary this year?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What was the salary
of his immediate predecessor?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The same salary.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There is no increase
given to the new officer?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Can the minister give us the number of preventive officers in the province of Quebec?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Temporary officers?


Henri Sévérin Béland: The preventive officers.
I do not believe they are permanent. In the meantime, the minister might perhaps give the committee a synopsis of the work performed by the preventive officers.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The duties of the preventive officers are to prevent the violation of the law regarding liquor, to endeavour to discover illicit stills, and to prevent any violation of the law regarding tobacco.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Do they receive a regular-salary or are they paid when they make a seizure?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The temporary preventive officers are Dr. L. P. Lavallee, G.. S. Warren . . .


Henri Sévérin Béland: Is Dr. L. P. Lavallee Sl physician?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He is a preventive officer and also a food inspector. Some of these, besides being preventive officers, are food inspectors or excise men. Some of them hold positions as assistant inspectors of weights and measures.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Has the hon. minister
any preventive officer in the district of Beauce?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Here is a list of preventive officers who, though at the head office at Quebec, work in the .surrounding counties of Quebec:	G. S. Warren, L. P.
Lavallee, G. Bouliane, P. Courey, P. E. Menard, A. Pelletier, W. LeBel, J. Dupont,
F.	X. Boy. All these belong to the district of Quebec.


Henri Sévérin Béland: There was a preventive
officer named Lambert at Beauceville. Is he still employed in the department?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He was dismissed.


William Erskine Knowles: Has the minister a preventive officer at Swift Current? Or was the officer there dismissed, and, if so, why?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: There is no preventive
officer at Swift Current.


William Erskine Knowles: I have not given the
title of the position correctly, then. There is a representative of the department at Swift Current I know.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Can you give me his
name?


William Erskine Knowles: Mr. Edmanson was
there when the Liberals were in power, but I think he was dismissed.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes, he was dismissed
and not replaced.


William Erskine Knowles: Why was he dismissed, and when?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I will have the list looked over.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Does the preventive officer receive a portion of the proceeds of sale made in consequence of seizure?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The officer receives half the penalty after all expenses are paid.


Mr. BUREAU:: What does the minister mean by ' after all expenses are paid' ? Generally, when a man is found guilty on an action brought against him, costs go with the action.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: If there are no expenses, of course, there is no deduction. But there are travelling and other expenses, and it seems to me that they should be paid.


Jacques Bureau: Am I to understand that the travelling expenses of preventive officers are paid out of the seizures made?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Preventive officers receive a fixed amount of salary, and besides they are entitled to receive a part of the amount of seizures. *


Jacques Bureau: I understand that. But Is it not true that an allowance is made them for travelling expenses? If an officer goes through, let us say, the province of Quebec, and makes no seizures, who pays his travelling expenses?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: When they are sent out especially and incur expenses, they are paid their expenses besides their salary.


Jacques Bureau: Then, the expenses of the preventive officer travelling for the department are paid by the department, and when a preventive officer makes a seizure, half the fine is so much added to his salary and travelling expenses? The minister says,
' yes.'
. Mr. BELAND:	What amount was received last year for seizures?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: About $2,800.


Mr. GAUVREAU:: 
Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Frenette still holds the same position but he is to be transferred to Quebec. He now belongs to the head office at Quebec.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Must I understand that the position of excise officer at Fraserville is abolished, and that it is decided that this man will be transferred to Quebec?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.
[ Mr. Nantel.]


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Will his salary be increased ?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: For the present, his salary is the same as the one he had at Fraserville.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: What is the salary?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: $900 a year.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Does the minister suppose that a man can live on a salary of $900 in a city like Quebec ? Is it the intention of the minister to increase the salary of Mr. Frenette, if there is something left of this vote of $13,000 ?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Frenette's salary is exactly $850. Being transferred to Quebec, he will necessarily receive more.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Can I take the word of the minister for that ?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Certainly.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: I am not concerned with the case of Mr. Frenette because he is a political friend of mine; on the contrary, he has always been opposed to me politically; but I do not ask for the sinner's death and I want the minister to give him a salary he can live upon.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: His salary will be increased.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Last night, I did not mention the dismissals that have taken place in my county, for the reason that the one I had in mind concerned a preventive officer. Mr. Elie Martin, preventive officer of St. Arsene, has been dismissed. I would like to know if the minister has received a petition or solemn declaration-I understand that declarations under oath must not be mentioned-charging Mr. Martin of political partisanship. The minister, it seems to me, is not ready to answer. I did not suppose that my question would occasion such a loss of time. That is the trouble of having a minister that is never ready to answer the questions put by members, and who has not at hand the information asked for.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Martin was a temporary preventive officer at Quebec, with a salary of $300. His services were not required. There has been no investigation held. There has been no sworn declaration. Mr. Martin was only a temporary officer and iso he could be dismissed at any time; he had five days' notice.


Mr.   GATJVREATJ@: Then the minister has taken upon himself to cut his head off, without any formality.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Martin was employed as a temporary preventive officer during the holidays, for an indefinite period; we have many others in the same position.
Mr. GATJVREATJ; Was his dismissal recommended by any one P


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I have not here the papers concerning Mr. Martin s case, but I can have them if it is so desired.


Mr.   GATJVREATJ@: I understand that the department had to make room in Temis-couata, to appoint a friend of the Government, and that is why Mr. Martin has been dismissed. Mr. Martin is a man who has been very useful to the department by the intelligent discharge of his duty. His nomination was the first official act of Mr. Bernier, in taking charge of the Department of Inland Revenue. I am not aware that a single complaint has been laid against Mr. Martin, and I am yet asking myself why the minister has dismissed him, since there was no complaint. The only reason the minister can give is that a place had to be found for a political friend.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I cannot give you any more information for the time being.


Mr.   GATJVREATJ@: Was it by means of the Hertzian waves that the minister learned that there was in the county of Temiscouata a Liberal who should be replaced by a friend of his party? At any rate, I think it only fair I should post the House as to the qualifications of the man who has been appointed in place of Mr. Martin.	.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Nazaire Lebel was appointed in his place; and should we fall from power, you will dismiss us in the same way.


Mr.   GATJVREATJ@: Is the minister aware that at this very time Mr. Nazaire Lebel is one of the political organizers for the county of Temiscouata and that he is constantly interfering in politics.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Not at all. If he meddles with politics, he will be dealt with in the same way as all others, and removed from office.


Mr.   GATJVREATJ@: I believe the minister is too much of a party man to do that, and if he intends keeping his word, he had better put that man out at once, for I am going to prove that he is right in the thick of the political fray. Here is an instance I wish
to quote to give an idea of the man who has been appointed to replace Mr. Martin. Aware of the fight which is being made in the province of Quebec with a view to improving the highways, that same Mr. Lebel takes every opportunity to state all over the constituency, at the church doors, that no heed should be given to the provincial act relating to the improvement of roads, seeing that the Dominion Government has enacted a measure whereby farmers will have good roads without paying a cent for the work.


Mr. PELLETIER:: That is an actual fact.


Mr.   GATJVREATJ@: Is the hon. Postmaster General ready to state on behalf of the Government that the latter will take charge of the highways without exacting a cent from any one? I believe he will not dare to interfere to that extent with the powers of the Minister of Railways. Moreover, I am satisfied neither the Minister of Railways nor the Prime Minister would be willing to bind themselves to that extent.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I may state to the hon. member that whenever the Senate agrees to pass that Bill, the municipalities will not be called upon to pay the interest charges.


Mr.   GATJVREATJ@: I realize that when it comes to winning an electoral contest, hon. gentlemen will be ready to make any kind of promise.
In any case, I may say to the Minister of Inland Revenue that the man he has chosen to replace Mr. Martin is a party heeler who does nothing else from one end of the year to the other. Now, the minister is not obliged to take my word for it; but if he enquires, he will have no difficulty in getting the proof of the facts as set forth by me. Mr. Martin is a man of quiet and peaceful habits, so much so, that I am not at all sure that he votes at elections, and that, of course, would only be exercising his rights as a citizen. I wonder what has put in the minister's head that he must put him out and replace him by a party heeler who will get thereby $300 per annum.
I thought fit, Mr. Chairman, to draw the attention of the House to that unfair dismissal. I realize that such an act is of no concern to my hon. friend, who is well padlocked and bolted to his portfolio. But if in the future he finds that his men do not meddle quite so much with politics, he may give me some credit for it.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The hon. member for
Moosejaw asked a question with reference to the dismissal of R. W. Edmanson, who

*was temporarily employed 'as an excise officer at Swift Current. His salary was $250, and he was employed also as a customs officer. He was dismissed by the hon. Minister of Customs for political partisanship.
Mr. KNOWLES [DOT] On which side was he forking?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I suppose he was working for the Liberal party.


William Erskine Knowles: Is my hon. friend just guessing?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: That is the letter I received, I suppose.


William Erskine Knowles: Does the file show he was working for the Liberals?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No, it has been decided by the Depart nent of Customs.


William Erskine Knowles: Does it say the Liberal side on the file?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes. It conveys that idea.


William Erskine Knowles: Would the minister
please read us the part in which it says that?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I say he has been dismissed for political partisanship.


William Erskine Knowles: It does not say which side?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The Liberal side.


William Erskine Knowles: Would the minister
read the part which says Liberal side?


Mr. FOSTER:: Surely you can make
your own deduction.


William Erskine Knowles: I ask the minister, who has used this document in the diseussioji, which I presume we could ask to have laid on the table of the House, to read the part of it which says that he worked on the Liberal side. It is simply political partisanship.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


William Erskine Knowles: Then the minister is only guessing when he says Liberal?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes, I am sure of it. I am sure he was working on the Liberal side.


William Erskine Knowles: The cat is out of the bag; they would not dismiss a man if it was on the Conservative side he was acting.


Mr. HENDERSON:: Certainly not.


William Erskine Knowles: And there we have the confession from the minister that they dismiss Liberals and promote Conservatives who are partisans. The minister says: It does not say on the file that he was a Liberal; but from the fact that he was dismissed for political partisanship I know he must be a Liberal. On whose recommendation was he dismissed?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Hon. J. D. Reid, Minister of Customs.


William Erskine Knowles: On whose recommendation did the Minister of Customs Act.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He is not here. This
officer was a temporary officer, and I consider I was justified in dismissing him on the Order in Council passed at the request of the Customs Department. As a matter of fact, he was working for the Inland Revenue Department only on commission.


William Erskine Knowles: I understood the minister to say that he got $250.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: And $50 provisional allowance.


William Erskine Knowles: I understood the minister to say he got $250; now I understand that he received $300.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He receives $250 on a
commission basis and $50 as a provisional allowance, ia total of $300.


William Erskine Knowles: Does the minister assert that the fact that another minister of the Crown dismisses an official who happens to be working for his department would be a good cause for dismissal in the Inland Revenue Department without any investigation? I do not think that is fair and I want to know the minister's views.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I would not like to liy
down a general rule.


William Erskine Knowles: Suppose the Minister
of Militia had some man employed as caretaker for his department in my hon. friend's county. Suppose the Minister of Militia dismissed that man because he was a Nationalist, would my hon. friend dismiss him because the Minister of Militia dismissed him?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I would consider the
question. The Department of Customs having dismissed him, as he was working on commission from the Department of Inland Revenue he was not entitled to receive the commission because he was deprived of his office in the Customs Department.


William Erskine Knowles: Then when the minister told us that he was dismissed for being a partisan that was not a correct answer, the reason is that he was only temporary?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He was dismissed for
political partisanship by the Customs Department, and on the receipt of the minister's letter I dismissed him. I consider I was perfectly justified in acting in that way, because I have no doubt the Minister of Customs was right in his action.


Georges Henri Boivin: Am I right in assuming
from the answer of the minister that temporary employees in his department can be dismissed without any reason other than the fact that they are temporary employees.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I consider so, and when they are so employed they are frankly notified that they are only temporary officials. In the list of dismissals of yesterday there were several who were officers only during the holidays. They could not expect to remain in the service for years and years.


Georges Henri Boivin: Take the case of a man like Mr. St. Pierre, in Montreal, who has been an employee of the department for about twenty-one years, and is still a temporary employee because he has not passed any examination. Are we to understand that the minister has laid down a rule that a temporary employee can be dismissed from his department simply because somebody else comes rapping at the door, without any other reason than the fact that he is temporarily employed ? I would ask the minister if he is in a position to-day to tell us how there came to be such a discrepancy between his statement on the floor last night that he had only dismissed eighty-four employees in his department since he was appointed to office and the return which was tabled at the request of the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy), which shows that one hundred and one employees were dismissed within the first year. The minister told me last night, after the adjournment of the committee, that he would take the matter up with the officers of his department and have an answer for the committee to-day. I would await that answer.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The whole number of officials removed from my department since the 19th of October, 1911, is 102. Of these fifty-five were permanent officers, ten were removed by death, seven were super- * annuated, ten resigned, fifteen were removed for political partisanship, twelve for
intemperance. Among the temporary officers, forty-seven were removed. Of these, thirteen resigned, six were removed for political partisanship, and twenty-eight for intemperance or other causes.


Georges Henri Boivin: What has become of the nine men who the minister said yesterday were dismissed because their services were no longer required ?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: These nine men were: Louis 0. Belliveau, Montreal; James Lynch, Montreal; J. W. Bohan, St. John; Louis Basinet, Joliette; Dr. 0. E. Milot, Three Rivers; J. B. St. Pierre, Montreal; E. Richer, St. Hyacinthe; William MacBeth, Montreal; Archibald MacDonald, Mull river; Elie Martin, Quebec; Odillon Pelletier, Quebec; J. E. Rivet, Joliette; D. Chisholm, Pictou; E. A. Lambert, Beauceville; Ls. M. Trottier, St. Hyacinthe.


Georges Henri Boivin: I am not questioning the right of the minister to dismiss his employees, but the point I am trying to get at is this: how is it if they were dismissed because, as the minister just now says, their services were no longer required, in the list that he has given I do not find any of the nine names given in the return as having been dismissed on account of their services being no longer required? There are other reasons given in the list; still, in the return brought down to the House the reason given is that their services are no longer required. It seems to me that the return is incorrect.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The return is correct.


Georges Henri Boivin: Then, the statement of
the minister is incorrect.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I must admit that I had a list yesterday which was incorrect. There were some errors in it. This morning I saw the officers of the department, I went into the list and I ascertained that the return was correct except that it did not contain all the names. I think there were one or two more names.


Georges Henri Boivin: The minister now admits that the statement he gave the House last evening with reference to the number of dismissed employees was incorrect and I would now ask him if he is prepared to correct the statement that he made yesterday that no employees were dismissed after the 10th December, 1912.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I am perfectly willing
to correct that statement in accordance with the one I have just made.


Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM:: Who has been appointed as the successor of Mr. John C. Bourinot who was dismissed in my county?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Was he an excise or a
preventive officer?


Alexander William Chisholm: He was a customs
detective.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We have no such name
in our list; he belongs to the customs.


Alexander William Chisholm: Last night, when the minister was reading the names of those who had been dismissed, I heard that of Archibald MacDonald, of Mull River. Whom has he appointed as the successor of Mr. MacDonald?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Archibald MacDonald has been succeeded by Archibald G. MacDonald as a temporary preventive officer.


Alexander William Chisholm: Who recommended the appointment of Archibald G. MacDonald as successor to Archibald MacDonald and the dismissal of the latter?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I am not in a position to give the name of the gentleman who recommended him.


Alexander William Chisholm: Will the minister furnish me with that information when his Estimates come up again?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Certainly.


Alexander William Chisholm: Has the minister the name of Angus R. Macdonald who was dismissed about a year and a half ago? He had to look after illicit stills and that sort of thing.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I have no such name. Does he not belong to the customs?


Alexander William Chisholm: I am not sure; I know that among his duties was looking after illicit stills.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We have no such name.


Georges Henri Boivin: I would like the minister to give us an explanation of the difference between this item and the next. This item is:
Extra duty-pay at large distilleries and other factories.
Then, the next item is:
Duty-pay to officers serving longer hours at other than special surveys.
What is the difference between extra duty and longer hours?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Longer hours apply to
officers in charge of bonded factories.


Georges Henri Boivin: What is the meaning of
extra duty pay at large distilleries. Is that for officers working overtime?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: For overtime and extra responsibility in connection with the work of important warehouses.


Mr. MACDONALD:: I would like to ask the minister who is now the deputy minister and what changes have taken place in the staff at headquarters during the past year.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The deputy minister is
Mr. Himsworth and the assistant is Mr. Vincent.


William John Macdonald: When was Mr. Himsworth made deputy minister?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He has been deputy minister since the 1st of October, 1913.


William John Macdonald: Whom did he succeed?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Gerald.


William John Macdonald: When did he retire?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: On the 1st of October,
1912.


William John Macdonald: Who was the assistant deputy minister under Mr. Gerald?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Himsworth was the secretary and assistant deputy minister.


William John Macdonald: Was Mr. Vincent in the department before the time of his appointment?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Vincent was not in the department.


William John Macdonald: Had he had any
particular training and experience in the work of the department that would fit him Ifor the important (position of .assistant deputy minister?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No particular training, but Mr. Vincent is a very well known, intelligent and clever young man, and he will have an opportunity of training in the department before being appointed as deputy head of the department.


William John Macdonald: How long do you give him training?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He will have about one year.


William John Macdonald: My hon. friend intends to make him deputy minister?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


William John Macdonald: When?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: When Mr. Himsworth is superannuated and retires.


William John Macdonald: When is he going to
be superannuated?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I expect he will be superannuated during the next six months.


William John Macdonald: Had the minister
nobody in the department as well fitted to succeed as Mr. Vincent, to whom he is extending a year's education?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I consider that Mr. Vincent is fitted to be the next deputy minister.


William John Macdonald: I did not ask that.
I asked whether there was no one in the department fit for the position.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I am not in a position
to say so.


William John Macdonald: You do not know?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I would not like to say
there is no one there fit to be deputy minister, but on the other hand I consider Mr. Vincent will be fit to fill the position.


William John Macdonald: What was his business before?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: A lawyer. I consider
that a lawyer can turn into a deputy minister with training.


William John Macdonald: The minister believes in the special fitness of members of the legal profession. What is the duty of an official in connection with' a distillery?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He has the supervision
[DOT]of the establishment.


William John Macdonald: The supervision is
exercised by the people who own the distillery?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The officer is there to see that the inland revenue is not defrauded.


Georges Henri Boivin: In what way does he
supervise?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He weighs the grain
entering, and he keeps track of all operations in the distillery.


Georges Henri Boivin: Is he supposed to sample any of the goods sent out?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He is supposed to test
the spirit for its strength.


William John Macdonald: What salary is paid .these officers?	[DOT]


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: From $1,800 to $2,200 a
year.


William John Macdonald: Have they to pass
an examination?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: A competitive special
class excise examination.


William John Macdonald: Did Mr. Vincent
pass any examination?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He was not appointed as supervisor. He passed no examination, and he was exempt from passing an examination, having the certificate of a university; at all events, the commission have accepted Mr. Vincent.


William John Macdonald: What new district
inland revenue inspectors have been appointed during the past year?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Dumontier of Quebec and Mr. Macdonald.


William John Macdonald: He was a butcher?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I do not know what he
was, but I am informed he is one of our very best inspectors.


William John Macdonald: Who says that?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The officer of the department who receives the report every day.


William John Macdonald: My information is
that he usually had someone travelling around with him during the past year to teach him what to do.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He is a talented man, because he has learned quickly and easily, and he promises to be one of our best inspectors.


William John Macdonald: Does the minister
regard examinations as being of any special value in the case of those who are appointed inspectors?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: In principle I consider it very important to have examinations,


William John Macdonald: What about the practice?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Macdonald's appointment is an exception, and there is in the regulations a special provision for such exceptions.


William John Macdonald: How many have you appointed inspectors who have not qualified by examination?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Macdonald is the
only one.


William John Macdonald: How did you find out the qualifications of this very estimable gentlemen, who was in the victualling trade?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I was informed by one oi my colleagues that he was intelligent and active, and I took his word. He turned out to be a good officer.


William John Macdonald: My information is
that this gentleman in performing his duty in the Maritime provinces has been accompanied continually by some one who had passed an examination.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I am informed, no.


William John Macdonald: Does the minister
mean to say that on certain occasions Mr. Macdonald was not accompanied by some officer of the department? I know that he was.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He was accompanied by the Dominion inspector of tobacco for six weeks.


William John Macdonald: Then why did you say he was not?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No man could be expected to do that work if he did not get instructions at the start.


William John Macdonald: Could the minister not have selected from the department an officer who had special technical knowledge and training, who could go around and do that work, without it being necessary for some one to accompany him?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I am told all these gentlemen have to be instructed in their duties.
I am told he could not do the work.


William John Macdonald: I know Mr. Macdonald could not do it, because every one knows that the Department of Inland Revenue is a highly technical one, with regard to the collection of inland revenue and the complicated provisions in reference to excise duty. Most men would have to give a longer period of time to the study of these questions in order to understand them. The minister knows that the only reason he appointed Mr. Macdonald, who was engaged in the meat business in the city of St. John, was because he was an active politician. The minister says Mr. Macdonald is intelligent, and most men who come from the Maritime provinces are intelligent, as to which I think the Minister of Trade and Commerce will bear me out.


George Eulas Foster: There are enough exceptions to prove the rule.


William John Macdonald: To say that because this gentleman was intelligent is sufficient to entitle him to be inspector, in connection with special and technical work, is incredible. Is the minister going to appoint any more officers of that kind, just because one of his confreres ask him to?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: In due time I will consider the question.


William John Macdonald: Did not you consider it yet?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Macdonald was recommended to me as a good man, and I have no regret for having appointed him.


William John Macdonald: Well, the Minister
of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen) was very insistent?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No.


William John Macdonald: And you would not have appointed Mr. Macdonald if it had n.*t bi en that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries insisted upon your doing so?
Mr. NANTEL.: I do not say iso. I would not have appointed him without having taken great care to appoint a good man.


William John Macdonald: The minister would not have appointed him had it not been that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries insisted upon it?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The Minister of Marine
and Fisheries recommended Mr. Macdonald.


William John Macdonald: And he insisted upon his appointment?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I do not say that he insisted strongly, but he recommended Mr. Macdonald. I took the word of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. I think that I have made a good appointment.


William John Macdonald: The minister should be frank. I am discussing this matter very frankly with him. The minister knows that he had representations from officers of his department throughout the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick impressing upon him that he should promote some of the men who had spent long years in the service -and who were qualified by examination. The minister received those representations ?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I admit that I received representations that some officer should be promoted. I do not remember the names, but I have received representations from some of the officers in Nova Scotia.


William John Macdonald: Certainly. The minister will also admit that in the ordinary course of the business of his department he would have made a promotion, had it not been that the political friends of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries Had a man whom they wanted to put in this position, that this man was intelligent and therefore the minister disregarded the others.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: If Mr. Macdonald had
not been strongly recommended by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, a gentleman upon whom I rely entirely, I would, before appointing him, have got information to convince me that he was a man fit for the position, and I would have taken all precautions to give him the opportunity of qualifying for the position.


William John Macdonald: You would not disregard the principle of promotion?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No.


William John Macdonald: Does not the minister believe that in his department it is a good thing to promote the men who have shown themselves to 'be capable?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Certainly, I admit that,
but that rule carries its exceptions.


William John Macdonald: And you would
have done that in this case, but for the pressure brought to bear by the hon. the Minister of Marine and Fisheries?


Mr. FOWLER:: I happen to know the
gentleman who has been appointed to this position. I know that he is a first-class man in every particular.


William John Macdonald: Very intelligent man, the minister says.


George William Fowler: Which is proof of his intelligence. I know that he is a first-class man in every way, well deserving of the position, and a man who will fill it in a most respectable manner.


William John Macdonald: Better than one of
the men who had grown up in the work and who knew all about it?


George William Fowler: Is my hon. friend always so anxious with regard to promotions in the service?


William John Macdonald: Oh, deal with this
case.


George William Fowler: This anxiety of his, it
appears to me, has come too late in life. It has not always been that men have been promoted from the service itself.


William John Macdonald: In the Inland
Revenue.


George William Fowler: And it is not always a
good thing, even then, because the men within the service may not always be competent for the position. At any rate, in this case, however great a wrench it may be to my hon. friend to hear that the promotion has not been from the service, the minister has got in the person of Mr. Macdonald one of the best officials in that particular department or any other department of the Civil Service.


Mr. KYTE:: Under what section of the
Act was Mr. Vincent admitted to the department without examination?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mt. Vincent was admitted to the department under section 21 of the Civil Service Act. Mr. Vincent is a university graduate, and before appointing him I took steps to secure the consent of the Civil Service Commission.


Wilfrid Laurier: 5 p.m. Wliat js the position?


Robert Laird Borden: Assistant deputy minister.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The minister states that this man in the course of a year is to be promoted to the position of deputy minister; is that correct?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Who occupies the position of deputy minister at the present time?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mt. Himsworth.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: How long has Mr. Himsworth been in the department?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: About forty-six years.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: How old is he at the present time?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Sixty-six years.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What has been the home or residence of Mr. Vincent, the man who has been appointed to the department already, and who is to be appointed deputy minister?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Ottawa.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: How long has he resided in Ottawa?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He has been in Ottawa for many years. I do not know exactly how long. 1 am told that he was born in Ottawa.


Mr. BOYER:: Did he practise his profession as an attorney in Ottawa?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He practised in Ottawa.


Gustave Benjamin Boyer: In company with any one?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: In 'company with Mr. Seguin.


Gustave Benjamin Boyer: Doing business in Ottawa?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


George William Kyte: Did he ever run any election?


Robert Laird Borden: Not so many as my hon. friend.


George William Kyte: But I won my elections; he did not win his.


William John Macdonald: Had the fact that
Mr. Vincent was the partner of a son-inlaw of my hon. friend anything to do with his selection for office?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: It was not for that reason that he was appointed. I really think my hon. friend should not ask such a question. Mr. Vincent was strongly recommended by friends. He ran an election, as has been stated; but the point is that he is considered perfectly qualified for his present position.


William John Macdonald: My hon. friend does not seem hard to satisfy.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I do not know whether my hon. friend wishes to be disagreeable to me-


William John Macdonald: Let the hon. minister not get excited; we have been treating him very nicely so far.


George William Kyte: What technical knowledge
did Mr. Vincent possess to entitle him to admission to the Civil Service without examination?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I told my hon. friend that the Civil Service Commission considered that Mr. Vincent was well qualified for the position that he now fills, and issued its certificate accordingly.


George William Kyte: That is not the point.


Robert Laird Borden: I think I can tell my hon. friend. Mr. Vincent was appointed assistant deputy minister just as Mr. Gerald Brown and others were appointed assistant deputy ministers without examination under the late Administration. The Civil Service Act provides that persons below the rank of deputy head must be appointed in a certain way, and I have always under-

stood that the Department of Justice construed the statute in the way to which I have alluded. Several illustrations of appointments could be given under the late Administration, and the appointment of Mr. Vincent-which was made on my own recommendation, and not on the recommendation of the Minister of Inland Revenue-was made in that way.
Mr. Vincent received the approval of the Civil Service Commission. Further than that, so far as the facts are concerned, in making the recommendation I was not-aware that he was practising in partnership with Mr. Seguin, nor was Mr. Vincent's name first given me by the Minister of Inland Revenue.


George William Kyte: The explanation, while extremely interesting, does not answer the inquiry I made. If the other gentleman who has been referred to was appointed to the position of assistant deputy minister under a section of the law which allows such appointments to be made, I presume there was satisfactory reason for it. I merely asked the minister what was the technical knowledge which Mr. Vincent possessed that justified the minister in making the appointment.


Robert Laird Borden: A deputy head can be
appointed under the provisions of the Act without examination or technical qualifications.


George William Kyte: If the minister says that
the apptfintment was made under section 21-


Robert Laird Borden: Wait a moment. I have explained to my bon. friend that under the ruling of the Department of Justice, which was acted on by the late Administration as well as this, assistant deputies had been appointed under the same provision on the ground and for the reason held to be a valid one by the Department of Justice- that the statute included one case as well as the other.


George William Kyte: Still, that is not an answer to my question. Section 21 says that persons can be appointed on account of possessing technical knowledge; otherwise an examination must be passed. Now, I want to know what particular technical knowledge Mr. Vincent possessed to enable him to get around that examination.


Robert Laird Borden: I think he had all the
qualifications posessed by the gentleman to whom I have alluded.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 
Robert Laird Borden: I have explained that the certificate may have been granted under [DOT]section 21, though I am not aware that that was the case. The action of the Government, as I understand it, was taken for the reason and upon the grounds which I have already suggested to the committee.


George William Kyte: Would it not be well for the right hon. gentleman and his Minister of Inland Revenue to have a consultation as to how Mr. Vincent really came in? The Minister of Inland Revenue says that he recommended the appointment under section 21, but the Prime Minister seems to think it was under some other section. But still my question is not answered. Again,
I ask, what is the technical knowledge possessed by Mr. Vincent to enable him to get around the examination provided for in the Civil Service Act?


Robert Laird Borden: Upon grounds which were held to be satisfactory by the Civil Service Commission.


George William Kyte: We have no proof of that.
If there is a report of the Civil Service Commission, will the minister be good enough to lay it on the table?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: If the hon. gentleman desires it I can lay the certificate before the committee, but of course, not now.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The Prime Minister assumes that there must have been good reason for this appointment, and I understand that my hon. friend from Richmond is not denying that. We admit that it is a coincidence-perhaps a rather singular one-that Mr. Vincent was recommended by the Prime Minister without the knowledge of the Minister of Inland Revenue-


Robert Laird Borden: I did not say it was without his knowledge.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Then, without being
asked to do so.
Mr. BORDEN':	I did not say that, although I think that in fact that was the case. I said I was not aware that there was a partnership with the gentleman who has been mentioned, and that Mr. Vincent's name was not suggested to me by the Minister of Inland Revenue.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Well, that is not very
different from what I said. It is only a singular coincident that the Prime Minister should have recommended a gentleman who had been recommended to him, or suggested to him, first by some person other than the minister at the head of the department.
I presume the Prime Minister has that power, and I am not here to quarrel with any exercise of his rights. It is a singular coincidence, however, that-


Robert Laird Borden: My hon. friend is not
aware of the terms of the Order in Council.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We are trying _ to find
that out. We are seeking information, but for some reason-I presume a good one we are not succeeding in getting that in-foruuiticn very rapidly. However, that is what we are here for. My hon. friend from R chmond (Mr. Kyte) is trying to find out from the minister what was the peculiar technical knowledge possessed by this gentleman which entitled him to receive the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission without competitive examination. Surely the minister can give that information. This gentleman was a lawyer, as I understand it; I do not care with whom he was in partnership. I am going to assume that he was a good lawyer and also that he possessed some technical knowledge which fitted him for the position in order to get around what was supposed to be the intention of the Civil Service Act. It may be that shrewd lawyers have found a way to drive a coach and four through the Act. As to the appointment of Mr. Gerald Brown some years ago, I think that the right hon. the Prime Minister has used that argument about as frequently as he ought; it is two and a half years since he commenced to fire that across the floor. We have been patiently waiting to hear from the Prime Minister a justification of the conduct of himself and his Minister of Inland Revenue on its .merits. We have failed so far. I do not think the Prime Minister is helping the case of the Minister of Inland Revenue. We have been getting along very nicely with the hon. minister. We have asked many questions and the hon. minister has acquitted himself in a very gentlemanly way indeed, and I think with great ability, and we on this side, I am sure, have been pleased and gratified with the manner in which he has answered our questions. Now, we would like to come down to business and to have the minister state what were the peculiar qualifications which entitled this gentleman to receive the appointment he has received, and this answer, I think, will settle the whole question.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Evidently, Mr. Vincent
would not have been appointed to such a position except on the certificate of the Civil Service Commission. Mr. Vincent

was recommended upon the certificate of the Civil Service 'Commission, which will be produced if my hon. friend so wishes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Do I understand the
minister to say that Mr. Vincent's qualifications for the position were submitted to the commission, and that these will be laid before that committee?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Vincent was well
known by both commissioners; he put his case before the commission, and the commission came to the conclusion that he was qualified for the position. The certificate issued by the commission in favour of Mr. Vincent will be laid before the committee.


George William Kyte: An answer given to a question recently by the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy) shows that the number of appointments in the different departments under section 21 of the Civil Service Act since the present Government came into power is extremely large. Section 21 appears to be a wide-open gate through which applicants for positions may enter the Government service without examination. I think the time has come for the members of this House to scrutinize closely the qualifications of applicants for positions by virtue of which they are appointed without examination. The Chairman will, I am sure, pardon my curiosity, as I have in mind a number of persons who have boon appointed under this section.
Mr. MoKENZIE:	I would like to hear
that section read again.


George William Kyte: Section 21 is as follows:
If the deputy head reports that the knowledge and ability requisite for the position are wholly or in part professional, technical or otherwise peculiar, the Governor in Council, upon the recommendation of the head of, the department based on the report in writing of the deputy head, may appoint a person to the position without competitive examination and without reference to the age limit, provided the said person obtains from the commission a certificate, to be given with or without examination, as is determined by the regulations of the commission, that he possesses the requisite knowledge and ability and is duly qualified as to health, character and habits.
It will be observed that a report in writing is also required from the deputy head; I presume the hon. minister will produce the report in writing furnished by the deputy head in this case.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: My recollection of the Act is that the certificate of the deputy

head as well as the certificate of the commission is required. I take it that the certificate of the deputy head would be the more important one, and I have no doubt that the hon. minister will be able to give the committee the report of the deputy head as well as the report of the commission.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I am willing to produce
the recommendation of the deputy head as well as the certificate of the commission.


Georges Henri Boivin: The hon. minister said
that he was under the impression that this appointment was made under section 44 of the Act. I presume that was a mistake?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I was under the impression that that was the section, but evidently I was mistaken.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: Looking over the
Auditor General's Report, I find that a large number of the officers employed by the minister are temporary employees. On page I-13, for instance, the following temporary employees are mentioned: For Saskatchewan, temporary exciseman, J. J. Libbey; High River, R. E. Sobey; Lacombe, J. McKenty; Medicine Hat, J. H. Collier; Pincher Creek, J. H. Schofield; Stettler, W. B. Gray; Red Deer, W. H. Cottingham; Taber, H. P. Monroe; Vermilion, M. A. Brimacombe; Moosejaw, W. O. Lowe; Estevan, D. R. Davies; North Battleford, A. M. Panton; Swift Current, R. W. Edmanson; Weyburn, W. J. H. McGowan.
It is rather striking that the hon. minister has so many temporary officers in the different provinces. Will the hon. minister explain this, and tell the committee why he does not make permanent appointments in the places mentioned?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: One of the reasons is that many of these officers attend to unimportant factories, tobacco factories for instance, in small places. They are appointed temporarily at small salaries, and as they have an opportunity of devoting their time to other occupations, they do take the temporary office.


Georges Henri Boivin: Do I understand that even in small towns where there are only tobacco or cigar factories, these temporary employees could, by passing the necessary examination, become permanent officers, or are they always left on the temporary list?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Sometimes they do not
care to pass the examinations because they have time to devote to other business, but

they can be permanently appointed if they pass the necessary examination.


Georges Henri Boivin: In the town of Farn'ham, for instance, where there is a cigar factory [DOT]conducted by a man by the name of Ruel, a temporary employee was appointed under the late Government to collect the excise" from this factory. Of course he was replaced by another officer when the change of Government took place, but what I want to know is whether an employee who is earning a very small salary, say $50 a year or less, for collecting the revenue from a small factory, would be entitled to pass an examination, and, if so, whether the department would be obliged to appoint him to a better position.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Not obliged to employ him, but I may employ him, especially if he is an efficient officer.


Georges Henri Boivin: In connection with the extra duty pay at large distilleries and other factories, those employed, as I understand, are already receiving large salaries, $1,400 and more per year. This item is extra duty pay to these same officers. I see the item is the same as was voted last year and the year before, so that this is evidently an old system. Has the minister considered increasing their regular pay instead of paying these extra amounts every year as extra duty pay?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I would support the idea that it would be much better for the minister to increase the salaries of these officials 'by an amount which would be sufficient to cover the extra allowance per annum for this purpose and thus avoid the trouble of keeping their time and passing small bills, etc.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: All of these excisemen are not called upon to work longer hours. I am told that this practice is the result of many years of experience, and that it is found to be the best system to work on.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: When the minister comes to the vote for the adulteration of food and inspection of food, would he kindly be prepared to give some information as to the number of officials in his employ who are charged with the analysis of different foods and commodities, which I think is far the most important part of his department? In my judgment, the department is doing good work. I would like to see it extended. It is of the greatest importance that the department should double or quadruple the number of exam-90
inations they are now making of food, essences, fertilizers, and all these things that enter into the ordinary lives of the people. I had an illustration not long ago in reference to fertilizers, an important thing in the Maritime provinces. A concern had sent out hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fertilizer under a certain guarantee. The department analysed samples, and found them all very far below the guarantee. That meant a loss to many people and may result in litigation.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We have now only one office, in Ottawa, under the control of Dr. McGill; but during last summer I had an Order in Council passed to establish three new offices, in Halifax, Winnipeg and Vancouver. In the Estimates there is an item of $21,000 for this purpose. At the head of each of these new offices we intend to put one of our best analysts from Ottawa. We have had great difficulty in finding good men, but Dr. McGill has gone to great trouble and has succeeded in training some very good young men whom he intends to put at the head of these new laboratories.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Sydney is a centre of industry and a rapidly growing city, and the cost of living there is exceedingly high. Last year, while a friend of ours was chief officer in the excise in Sydney, I asked for an increase in his salary. He, unfortunately, passed away and a new man was appointed in his place, a friend of the present Administration and an exceedingly capable man. I congratulate the minister upon the appointment of such an efficient officer as Mr. McKeen. He is an educated gentleman, a man of wide experience, and the minister might travel far and wide before he would find another equally capable man. Living in Sydney, as he is obliged to do, a man of family and no longer a young man, although he is not a political friend of mine, still he is a very close personal friend and a man of exceptional ability, and I would like to bring to the notice of the minister the fact that $900 a year is not enough for a man to live on in Sydney and to maintain himself and his family in the manner in which a gentleman occupying that position is obliged to do. I hope that before long, if not at once, the minister will increase that salary to something like $1,500 a year, which would be the least that a man could expect to live on in that city and hold such an office as Mr. McKeen is holding.


William John Macdonald: The minister made a change in the position of preventive officer in Pictou county and appointed William Jardine, of Trenton. Would the minister be prepared this evening to give a statement as to what work this official performed during the past year?
Has the minister a preventive officer in his department at Glace Bay outside of the Customs Department.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I see none. There is one at Halifax and one at Pictou-J. K. McKinnon.


William John Macdonald: Would the minister let us know after dinner what he receives and what his particular duties are? .


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Certainly. He receives only $200.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Mr. McKinnon is a resident of my county.


Mr. CARROLL:: I think it^would be necessary to have a preventive officer in the town of Glace Bay, if the minister has none there now. It is a town of about 20,000 population, it has a considerable commerce and he should have some officer in that vicinity. I am only throwing this out to the minister that he may investigate it. I do not expect that a friend of mine will get the job. How many distilleries, if any, are there in the province of Nova Scotia today?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: None.


William F. Carroll: How many 'breweries
are being operated in the city of Halifax and by whom?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Three.


William F. Carroll: Does the minister have any information in his department to show the importation of liquor into the various provinces?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No.


William John Macdonald: Are there any
breweries or distilleries in Prince Edward Island or New Brunswick?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: There are no breweries or distilleries in Prince Edward Island. There are two breweries in New Brunswick.


William John Macdonald: Where are they?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: At St. John and Fairville.


William John Macdonald: How many tobacco factories are there in Nova Scotia?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: In Nova Scotia there are two cigar manufacturers and one tobacco manufacturer.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The minister made no reply to my question in regard to Mr. McKeen.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. McKeen receives only $900. He has only been appointed within six months. He is the collector at Glace Bay. I am inclined to increase his salary, but we generally expect an officer shall serve longer than six months before his salary is increased. As soon as he has been in office long enough I shall certainly increase his salary, but I cannot undertake to give him $1,500 unless I am authorized to do so by the law, which, I expect, will be accepted by the House, authorizing an increase in the salaries of all the officers of the department. I consider myself that the officers of the department are underpaid. But as the law is now, I am bound by the regulations. If I increased the salary of Mr. McKeen to $1,500 I would be called upon to increase the salaries of all the other officers in the same position.


William Erskine Knowles: How much does the head man in Saskatchewan, Mr. Conklin, get?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He is the inspector, and he gets $1,800.


William Erskine Knowles: Does he receive an increase this year?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He is up to the maximum. Besides that he receives his provisional allowance of $100, which gives him $1,900 altogether.


William Erskine Knowles: I think the minister should increase the salary of a man like that living, in an expensive country such as Saskatchewan is. He has charge of the whole province. He must have to collect many thousands of dollars, and that must impose upon him a great responsibility. He has all the other officers in the province under him, as well as the officials in his own office. I should think that his salary ought to be increased very much, and I hope the Minister will take that into his consideration.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: All these officers in the western provinces are on the same footing. They receive about the same salary besides their provisional allowance. The salary is regulated by the classification of the division. We have several divisions according to the importance of the work as indi-

cated by the amount collected, and the salary is proportioned to the amount collected.


William Erskine Knowles: How much does the head man in Alberta receive?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Fletcher, in Calgary, receives less, because he is only newly appointed as collector. He is receiving the salary of his class, but he is not at the maximum.


William Erskine Knowles: Is not that a small
salary for such an important position?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I believe that the salaries
of all these officers are too small, and I expect to be able to put them all on the same footing.


William Erskine Knowles: This session?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I expect this session.


William John Macdonald: What salary is paid to Mr. Frank Carroll in the Inland Revenue Department office at Pictou?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: 


William John Macdonald: Has he reached the maximum?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


William John Macdonald: He would have to
pass another examination for promotion?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


William John Macdonald: What is paid to the collector, Mr. Fraser?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: $1,400. He is at the maximum of his class.
Excise-Preventive service, $13,000.


Georges Henri Boivin: What are the duties of
these preventive officers?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: They are charged with
preventing violation of the excise law, such as illicit distilling and illegal manufacture of tobacco.


Georges Henri Boivin: Is there a preventive officer in the district of Bedford?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The preventive officers oi the Quebec district attend to that part of the country.


Georges Henri Boivin: Who are they?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: They are as follows:
Leon Renault, L. N. Asselin, G. Bouliane, I'antaleon Courcy, Nazaire LeBel, Edmond Roy, Antoine Borne, Edmond Menard, Alphonse Pelletier, Joseph Dupont, Nazaire Grosleau, F. R. Roy, T. E. Flynn, Onesime Brochu. I read the names so that 90}
perhaps the hon. member will recognize some of his friends.


Georges Henri Boivin: I am sorry to say I do
not recall any of them. Where are the preventive officers stationed in the province of Quebec?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: These gentlemen belong
to the Quebec division, and they are sent here or there according to the needs of the service.


Georges Henri Boivin: In what cities are these
gentlemen stationed permanently, and where does the chief of each branch reside?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Roy is the chief in
Quebec city, Mr. Bernier in Montreal, Mr. Simpson in Sherbrooke, and Mr. Hebert in Three Rivers.


Georges Henri Boivin: Are these men supposed
to leave their headquarters and (travel through the country?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Only within the limits
of their division.


Georges Henri Boivin: What counties are comprised in the Sherbrooke division?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Richmond, Sherbrooke,
Compton, Stanstead, Brome and Shefford. The hon. gentleman's county is in the Sherbrooke division.


Georges Henri Boivin: How many men are there under the direction of Simpson at Sherbrooke?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The names are as follows:	A. F. Simpson, J. D. Quinn, E.
Chartier, F. C. Bowen, C. B. de Grasbois, E. H. Rousseau.


Georges Henri Boivin: I now recognize some of these names, but I think Mr. de Grosbois and Mr. Rousseau are collectors and not preventive officers. What I asked for was the names of the preventive officers in the Sherbrooke division.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We have no special preventive officer in (Sherbrooke.


Georges Henri Boivin: Does the minister wish to inform this committee that in a large district composed of eight or ten counties there is not a single preventive officer of the Department of Inland Revenue?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: So I am informed, and it is in favour of the district of Sherbrooke. We have received no demand for such an appointment, because I suppose everybody complies with the law. That will be a good point for the electors.


Georges Henri Boivin: I am certainly very much flattered by the high tribute of morality paid by the hon. Minister of Inland Revenue to the district from which I come; but, as I understand it, preventive officers are appointed for the purpose of preventing illicit stills, etc.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Do you suggest that I appoint a preventive officer for Snerbrooke?


Georges Henri Boivin: Yes.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I will certainly do so, but it will not be any one you recommend.


William John Macdonald: You had better take his recommendation.


Georges Henri Boivin: The hon. minister need
-not have stated that he would not take my recommendation for the appointment, because I certainly would have recommended a Liberal, and it would have been against his-	^


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Religion.


Georges Henri Boivin: -his religion. But I really think a preventive officer should be appointed for that district.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I will certainly appoint
one.
At six o'clock the House resumed, and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Bill No. 64, respecting the London and Port Stanley Railway Company.-Mr. Beattie. Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
On section 3, as amended-agreements regarding running powers:
Mr. MURPHY:: Is this a standard section or is it peculiar to this Bill?


Mr. BEATTIE:: This road was built in
1857. It is twenty-five miles long. It is owned by the city of London. It is now a steam road, but it is proposed to electrify it and give other companies running powers over it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The road is in operation?


Thomas Beattie: For many years. The
amendments made to this section were submitted to the Railway -Committee and to the chairman of that committee (Mr. Lancaster). I had a copy sent to the board in London, and they were satisfied.
{Mr. Nantel.]


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Has the city of London been operating the road?? And do they iu-tend to continue running it, or are they making arrangements with another company?


Thomas Beattie: They operated it for about twenty-five years and then leased it to the Grand Trunk railway for a number of years. Latterly it has been allied with the Lake Erie and Detroit River road.
Mr. CARVELL. Is the city going to run it?
Mr. BEATTlE: They own it.


John Howard Sinclair: Is the same man president of the company and mayor of the town?


Thomas Beattie: Yes.
On section 8 as amended-the Railway Act applied:


William F. Carroll: Is this road under the
jurisdiction of the Dominion Board of Railway Commissioners?


Thomas Beattie: I suppose it is; it has a Dominion charter.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.


ACADIA LOAN CORPORATION.
[Stage Direction]
The House in committee on Bill No. 33, respecting The Acadia Loan Corporation, and to change its name to The Mortgage Corporation of Nova Scotia.-Mr. A. K. Maclean. Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
On section 2-increase of capital:
Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Would the hon. gentleman give the reason for the change of name?


Mr. MACLEAN:: A large proportion of . the capital of the company was secured, I believe, in Scotland, and I think the desire for the change of name from The Acadia Loan Corporation to The Mortgage Corporation of Nova Scotia originated there.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


BRITISH TRUST COMPANY.
[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Bill No. 57, respecting The British Trust Company.- Mr. Baker. Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
On section 1-forfeiture for non-user:
Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What is the nature of the amendment?


Mr. W. T. WHITE:: Two years were given from a certain date in 1912 within

which the company should organize and commence business. They have been unable to do so, and have asked for a further extension of two years, which the committee, after careful consideration, agreed to give them. The amendment, therefore, is the substitution of the word 'four' for the word 'two' in the original Act.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


STERLING TRUSTS CORPORATION.
[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee on Bill No. 38, respecting The Sterling Trusts Corporation. -Mr. G. V. White. Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
On section 1-1911, c. 144, s. 6 amended:
William Thomas White: Section 1 provides for the substitution of the words 'Dominion of Canada' for the words 'Province of Saskatchewan.' Previously a certain number of the directors were required to reside in the province of Saskatchewan, and the change has been made because no geographical limitation in regard to the residence of the directors is considered necessary. Section 2 was struck out because the committee took the view, and I think very properly so, that the shareholders should not be allowed to delegate their powers to a committee of five.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The Bill passes, then, in one section?


William Thomas White: Yes.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


THIRD READINGS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 65, respecting the McClary Manufacturing Company.-Mr. Beattie.
Bill No. 58, to incorporate The Sudbury, Kepawa and Bell River Railway Company. -Mr. G. V. White.
Bill No. 53, respecting The Empire Life Insurance Company of Canada.-Mr. Mac-donell.
Bill No. 35, to incorporate The Bank of Edmonton.-Mr. Douglas.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 41, respecting the Canadian Northern Railway Company-Mr. W. H. Sharpe.
Bill No. 63, respecting the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company.-Mr. Currie.
Bill No. 73, respecting the Canadian Northern Railway Company.-Mr. Currie.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 91, respecting the Northern Territorial Railway-Mr. McKay.
Bill No. 92, respecting the Premier Life Insurance Company.-Mr. R. B. Bennett.
Bill No. 93, respecting the Prince Edward and Hastings Railway Company.- Mr. Hepburn.
Bill No. 94, respecting Interurban Company, Limited, and to Change its name to Interurban Telephone Company, Limited. -Mr. Northrop.
Bill No. 95, respecting the High River, Saskatchewan and Hudson Bay Railway Company.-Mr. R. B. Bennett.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply. Mr. Blondin in the Chair.
Excise-Travelling expenses, rent, fuel, stationery, etc., $120,000.
["That is the end of the commission, then.\nProgress reported.\t'\nOn motion of Mr. Pelletier, the House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.\nMonday, March 9, 1914."]
William F. Carroll: What is the reason for the increase?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: It is due to increase of operations. This includes the expenses of all our inspectors or other officers who are obliged to make inspections. For instance, we have Mr. Barrett at Winnipeg, who is obliged to go elsewhere to inspect distilleries, warehouses, etc.


William F. Carroll: Would it not be cheaper to have these officers stationed in the respective districts? In the Maritime provinces they have to send their officers all the way from Halifax or Pictou if anything' should happen, for instance, in Cape Breton, a distance of from 200 to 400 miles. That necessitates a waste of time and' heavy travelling expenses. Instead of having all the officers in the districts of Halifax and Pictou, they could be distributed over the province.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: There is a collector and an inspector in each district, and the latter .inspects all the officers under him. There is a chief inspector, Mr. Barrett, at Winnipeg, who inspects the malt houses and breweries.


William F. Carroll: If it was reported that an illicit still was being operated, say, at Glace Bay, an officer would have to go there to investigate.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: If such a thing should happen a report would be made to the collector of the division at Pictou, who would send an officer and take proceedings.


William F. Carroll: Pictou is about 200 miles from Sydney. In the past there have been illicit stills operated in certain parts of Cape Breton Island, and it takes a long time for a man to go from Pictou or Halifax down there.
Mr. NANI'EL: The preventive officer can take action himself. He is not obliged to report everything to the collector before acting. We have a preventive officer at Glace Bay named McKinnon.


William F. Carroll: I asked the minister that this afternoon, and he said there was no preventive officer there.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We have a preventive ulfioer there.


William F. Carroll: I would like to know who he is.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We have three preventive officers on the island, one of whom is at Mabou, Inverness county, and another at Mill Cove.


William F. Carroll: These are all in the one county of Inverness, which is on the eastern side of the island.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: But they have jurisdiction over the whole island.


William F. Carroll: It is rather peculiar that these three should be in the one county while in the larger counties we do not seem to have any.


Alexander William Chisholm: Who are those three in Inverness county?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: J. J. McKinnon, A. J. MacDonald, D. McLellan.


Alexander William Chisholm: What is Mr. McLellan's address?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I cannot give his address, but his authority extends over the whole district.


Alexander William Chisholm: I asked the minister about another officer there, Angus R. MacDonald. My information is that he was also one of the officers of the 'minister. His duties were similar to the duties of these three men. He was to look after illicit stills. Of course we have no such thing as that in Inverness now. Is it not possible that this man was in his department because I do not know what other department he could be in.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We will try to find the name.


Alexander William Chisholm: He was dismissed about a year ago.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He is not one of our officers. Perhaps he belongs to the customs.


Alexander William Chisholm: His name may not be in this return because he was dismissed about a year ago.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We do not find his name in this list.
Excise-Stamps for nported and Canadian tobacco, $125,000.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: This seems like a very large amount for the number of stamps required. What quantity is used in a year, and is there a contract for the printing of the same?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The increase in this
branch is fairiy considerable, as will be shown by the following figures:
1912.	1913.
Lbs.	Lbs.
Manufactured tobacco .. 20,671,131	22,105,869
Cigarettes at $2.40 per M.781,584,865 976,798,207 Cigarettes at $7 per M. 2,397,320	2,408,200


William John Macdonald: What do you pay the
contractors for these stamps?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: About $1.35 per thousand.


Charles Murphy: By whom are these
stamps manufactured and are they manufactured under contract?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Under contract in Ottawa by the British American Bank Note Company and the American Bank Note Company.


Mr. PROULX:: What is the revenue from the sale of stamps on tobacco?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: On this tobacco the
revenue is $5,453,936.


Edmond Proulx: Is the revenue much
larger'on imported tobacco than on Canadian tobacco?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: This item is on foreign
leaf tobacco.


Edmond Proulx: What is the annual revenue on the Canadian leaf?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: On 21,694,109 pounds,

Excise-To pay collectors of customs for duty collected by them, $5,000.


William John Macdonald: Is that where customs officers act for inland revenue purposes?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


Alexander William Chisholm: The minister
mentioned the name of Mr. McLellan as being one of three officers in the county of Inverness. When "was Mr. McLellan appointed? Has he replaced anybody? If possible, I should like to have his address.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I will get the information and give it to my hon. friend.


Alexander William Chisholm: Would the minister
also give me the dates of appointment of the other two, and the addresses of the three? I did not know that there were such officials, and I do not think there is any necessity for them in my county.
Excise-Provisional allowance of not more than $150 each, to officers in Manitoba and provinces west thereof, whose salaries from any Government service do not exceed $2,500, $10,000.


Charles Murphy: Will the minister please explain this item?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: In the West, our officers are entitled, besides their salaries, to what we call a provisional allowance, as compensation for the high cost of living. When the salary is less than $1,000, the provisional allowance is $150; when the salary is over $1,000 and under $2,500, the provisional allowance is $120.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Was that in the Estimates last year?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.
Salaries of officers, inspectors and assistant inspectors of weights and measures, $101,000.


Alexander William Chisholm: The office oi
inspector of weights and measures in the county of Inverness was filled by the late George C. Lawrence. Has a successor been appointed?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I will give the hon. member the information. In this item there is an increase of $15,200, due to increases in salaries of certain employees, varying from $200 to $250 a year, also to new appointments of officers at $600, rising to $1,200 a year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Some time ago a new regulation was promulgated by the Department of Inland Revenue compelling the adoption of a new scale, technically termed the beam scale, instead of the spring scale. I am advised by many of my constituents that this new regulation will operate as a great hardship upon many people. In the first place, a number of hardware merchants are supplied with the
style of scale that has been in use for a great many years.
Further, a great number of householders have purchased the old style of scale; and to compel them to cease the use of it and to adopt another form will, I am told, be an unnecessary hardship. Why was this new regulation passed by the department, and is not the scale that is now in use and that has been in use for some years for household purposes particularly, as good a scale as the beam scale for such purposes?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The idea of this regulation is to discard the spring scale, which does not give entire satisfaction. We have discussed the question for many months. Since I have been in office, we have met most of the interests concerned, and we have rea hed the conclusion that the spring scale should be discarded.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Who are the interested people in Canada, outside of the users of the scales?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The users-retailers and others. There are some exceptions to the regulation.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Who are the manufacturers of scales in Canada?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Canadian manufacturers
and American manufacturers are interested in this matter. The regulation was to prevent the flooding of the Canadian market with very cheap American scales.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is the minister trying to help the Canadian manufacturer or the public?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The protection of the public was the first purpose, and the Canadian manufacturer against the American manufacturers, who were flooding the country with cheap and inaccurate scales.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Did the Canadian manufacturers urge this change?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Were they in favour of it?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Certainly.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Did any retailer or con sumer ever approach the minister and ask for the change?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We considered that it was
for the protection of the consumers to compel the retailers to keep accurate scales.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I do not believe that the people are interested in that direction whatever. It may be true that the beam scale is more accurate than the spring scale, but for domestic and household purposes I believe that the consumers would prefer the spring scale to the beam scale. The former is sufficiently accurate and much more convenient.


Mr. HAZEN:: Is there anything to prevent the consumer from using
5 p.m. any scale he chooses? This is only where people are selling by
weight.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The complaint of my hon. friend is the first that we have received against the new regulation. I will certainly take it into consideration, especially if there are many more complaints. I consider that the new regulation is required and is in the interest of the consumer.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Do I understand the regulation to mean that hereafter a dealer cannot sell a spring scale to a user, if the latter wishes to buy one?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The dealer can sell a
spring scale, but not a cheap inaccurate one.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What can he sell?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: A good spring scale approved by the inspector of the department.


George William Kyte: And manufactured in Canada?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: What was the purpose of the regulation? How is it worded, when it operates only against a low grade spring scale?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I shall be glad to read
the regulation, but it is very technical. There are certain exceptions. The spring scale may be inspected and stamped for the weighing of ice only-that is the exception -when found to comply with the regulations. All the scales are under the control of the Inspector of Weights and Measures, and it is the only way to control them and to protect the public. If these spring scales are accurate, they are considered legal and stamped by the inspector. The idea is to discard gradually the spring scales when considered inaccurate by the inspector of the department.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: They may be abolished?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: That is the idea at all
events. This is the first complaint that the department has received on behalf of the

spring scale. If we receive many- such complaints, we will try to ascertain if our attempt to protect the public is more objectionable than the grievance which we are trying to remedy.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I am not very conversant with the regulation or its possible effect, but I know that the department has had protests from dealers in regard to this regulation. I have in my possession a copy of a letter sent to the department by a Halifax dealer, with whom I had a personal interview less than a week ago, when he informed me that he thought it was a great and unnecessary hardship upon the public.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I am informed that,
since this new regulation came into effect, we have received a few letters from hardware merchants.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The hardware merchants say that this regulation has been made at the request of a Toronto manufacturer of scales, and that the department up to date has given to the public no good reason for the change. There should be some way of informing the public as to the justification of this regulation.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: It has been proven to
my satisfaction and to that of the chief inspector of weights and measures that the cheap imported spring scales are not accurate, and in order to protect the public against fraud-


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is there a definition of a cheap scale in your regulation?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is it optional with the officers to say whether or not a certain spring scale can be continued in use, or does it say that only scales of a certain make can be used?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: It is practically under the control of the chief inspector. [DOT]


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I am informed that
householders, women particularly, of late years, have begun-and very properly-to use spring scales to test the weight of purchases made. These need not be finely accurate; they afford a substantial test of the accuracy of the scales used by the dealers who supply goods. To use a beam scale for a household test of this kind would be unnecessary. I am informed that this regulation prohibits the use of spring scales for domestic purposes, and I wish to know whether that is correct or not.

142r


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: An inaccurate scale in a household cannot be used to test the scale of the merchant.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But will you allow the dealer in scales to sell them?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Not if they are inaccurate.
It is not right to subject the trader's scales to the test of a cheap and inaccurate scale.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But there surely must
be some better explanation of the regulation than the minister has given. There should be general statutory power given to the Inland Revenue Department to put out of commission any inaccurate scale, but surely the regulation does not say merely that the dealers may not sell inaccurate scales. There must be a definition of the class of scales.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: At all events this is a new regulation, and should it prove defective it will be very easy to cancel it. But we consider it a good regulation.
Mr-. MACLEAN: We import a large number of these scales from England, and they are considered very satisfactory for household use. If the home manufacturer tells the department that they are inaccurate and they are all forbidden, the dealer who has purchased them will lose.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We do not accept manufacturers' statements; we test the scales ourselves.


John Howard Sinclair: Does the minister say
that he regulates scales used for domestic purposes? Surely, there is a difference between a scale used in a grocery for the weighing of goods to the public and the scale used in the household.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Every scale in Canada
should be inspected.


John Howard Sinclair: Am I prohibited from
having a scale in my own house without having it inspected ?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The law provides that
every scale shall be inspected.


John Howard Sinclair: Then, it is contrary to the law for me to have a scale for my own use without inspection?


John Douglas Hazen: It must have been inspected before it was bought.


John Howard Sinclair: That is, it must hare
been inspected in the dealer's shop, but the officers do not go to a private house to inspect scales used merely for household purposes?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: They are inspected in
the hands of the manufacturer or importer.


John Howard Sinclair: Complaint has been
made by grocers in the part of Nova Scotia where I live that officers are Inspecting their scales more frequently now than: in former years, and that they are compelled to pay the inspection fee. Has any change been made in the regulations? And what fee is charged' by the officer who makes the test? How are these fees levied,, and are they levied more often than formerly. Has the minister received any complaints from the trade on this account?'


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The spring scale loses
its accuracy more quickly than another and these scales must be inspected every year, while the others are inspected every two years. The fee for such inspection is: 50 cents on a scale up to 30 pounds.


Mr. DOUGLAS:: The minister refers toscales used in weighing out goods for the-public, not to scales used in the household.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The scales in private
houses are not inspected, but they must be inspected before they are sold.


James McCrie Douglas: They must bear the-
Government stamp. But what the member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean) is getting at is that under the regulations dealers are prohibited from selling these scales.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The idea is to gradually cause inaccurate scales to be discarded- the cheap imported scales.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That is my inquiry.
What justification is there for such action-by the department? Was the judgment sound that led to the passing of such a regulation?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The reports of the chief inspector and the general experience of the department have led to the conclusion that this is a sound policy.


William F. Carroll: I can readily understand' that there may be some reason for discarding these scales if they become inaccurate shortly after they are sold, but I cannot' understand why they should be discarded after they have been examined' by the inspectors of the department, either in the hands of the importers or in the-hands of the manufacturers. The minister will understand, of course, that in private families beam scales are not used; they are too cumbersome and too expensive. I think this regulation will place a hardship-

on the housewife who requires a small scale for her own use. Small domestic scales are used for two purposes: first, to test the weight of the various articles bought in the stores, and secondly to weigh at the'' door of the house the products of the farmer who goes around selling his goods. With all due deference to what the minister has told the committee, I think that the department, if it has decided to discard these scales, has made a mistake. Certainly, if upon testing a scale of any description they find it to be inaccurate, it should be discarded, but if a scale is accurate, no matter what its make may be, the department should not outline a plan to put it gradually out of existence.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: These cheap spring scales are considered to be inaccurate, and the department considers that the result of the effort to prohibit them will be that another cheap and accurate scale will be put on the market.


William F. Carroll: When these scales are first examined, the inspector can tell immediately whether or not they are accurate. If the scale is not accurate, let him put it out of existence by instructing the importer or the manufacturer that he must not sell it. But surely it is penalizing the public to say, because some of the scales may be inaccurate, that none of them shall be sold.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Some of the cheap scales which are imported from the United States are so poorly made that they become inaccurate almost immediately. Possibly that is the reason why the Department of Inland Revenue had the regulations changed in order to provide that the scales shall be inspected every year instead of every two years.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: But the regulation does not discriminate between good scales and bad scales; it applies with equal force to the first-class spring scale imported from England and the poor scale imported from the United States.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: All spring scales are not discarded. Some are good, and some are bad; the Post Office Department has been notified by the Department of Inland Revenue that some of the scales in use in the Post Office Department would have to be discarded because of their having become inaccurate in a short time. Canadian firms are now manufacturing scales just about as cheap as, but much better 
and much more accurate, than those imported from the United States.
Mr.	MACLEAN:	Can	the	Postmaster
General tell the committee what is the meaning and effect of this regulation?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The effect of the
regulation is to stamp out .scales which will deceive the public.
Mr.	MACLEAN:	How	do you proceed
to do that?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: All the scales have to be inspected and approved by the Department of Inland Revenue.
Mr.	DOUGLAS:	Does	the	Postmaster
General mean that all scales of every description have to be approved by the Inland Revenue Department?
Mr.	PELLETIER:	Yes.


James McCrie Douglas: Whether used by private
families or not?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The inspector of
weights and measures inspects the scales before they leave the manufacturer or dealer; they are not inspected in the homes.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Are the healers to be absolutely prohibited from selling these spring scales in the future?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: They have the right to dispose of whatever stock they have on hand.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Can they buy any
-more?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: They cannot buy any more of the scales which are now prohibited.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: A good spring scale may hereafter be sold by dealers, notwithstanding the regulation?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: That is right.
Rent, fuel, travelling expenses, stationery, etc., for weights and measures, including amount for purchase of standards of the metric system, salaries and other expenses of inspectors, $69,000.


William John Macdonald: I asked the hon.
minister this afternoon to give me some information to-night; I should like to get it now.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: William Jardine, temporary preventive officer, Trenton, N.S., division of Pictou: date of birth, April 2. 1864; date of first employment, January 1, 1913; present salary, $300.


William John Macdonald: What duties did he perform last year?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He was acting as preventive officer. He made a report to the department every month.


Alexander William Chisholm: I would remind the hon. minister that I asked him for some information with regard to Mr. Campbell.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. D. E. Campbell was appointed to succeed Mr. Lawrence.


Alexander William Chisholm: Mr. Lawrence was the chief inspector of weights and measures. Is Mr. Campbell chief inspector?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He is assistant inspector.


Alexander William Chisholm: What salary is he getting now?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: $600.


Alexander William Chisholm: Is it the intention of the department to promote Mr. Campbell to the position of chief inspector? I understand that at present Mr. Dunstan at Pic-tou is chief inspector and hi$ jurisdiction covers the field in which Mr. Campbell works.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: It is impossible to appoint him chief inspector now because Mr. Dunstan is chief inspector here.


Alexander William Chisholm: Then he cannot expect any promotion?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Not now. There is no
vacancy.
Provisional allowance of not more than $150 each to officers in Manitoba and provinces west thereof whose salaries do not exceed $2,500 per annum (weights and measures), $3,000.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The same item as to the other officers in the western part of Canada.


William F. Carroll: Are they paid on the
same scale as in the East apart from this?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Exactly the same.
Salaries of gas and electricity inspectors, $73,950.


William F. Carroll: How often are these inspectors supposed to inspect electric meters, for instance in a town?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Every five years, and the proprietors are obliged to bring the meters to the inspection office.


William F. Carroll: When did one of these officers visit the town of Glace Bay?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: They go when they are
required, but I cannot say when the town was last visited.


William F. Carroll: The Act provides for an inspection every five years. It is not fair to say that they should go when required. There should be an inspection every five years in accordance with the Act.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: There are two inspectors at Halifax and they are obliged to inspect meters every five years and to go oftener if required.


William F. Carroll: What could the charges be?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Sixty cents for every
household meter.


Mr. MICHAUD:: And how much foT
larger meters?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Seventy-five cents or a
dollar, according to the meter.


William John Macdonald: In the papers showing the work done by the preventive officers at Pictou, I find that the reports are al- [DOT] most all in stereotyped form, simply saying that he visited the different towns in the country and that he made inquiries from reputable people and could find no violation of the law. If there is to be any value in these reports they should be written on forms sent out by the department, giving statements as to what shops the officer visited in looking for infractions of the tobacco law or what districts he visited in seeking infractions of the law in respect to the manufacture of spirits. These reports, as they stand, are of no value. The payment of salaries to these preventive officers, judging by these reports, is a useless expense.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I frankly admit that
these reports are not as perfect as they might" be if prepared by a lawyer, but the present system is certainly better than the one before this system was introduced, because formerly officers gave no sign of life except when it was time for us to pay their salaries.


William John Macdonald: That is about what
they are doing now.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I shall give consideration to the suggestion of my hon. friend.


Mr.   MAGDONALD@: The minister is
very oily about this thing, but his suggestion that he has inaugurated some wonderful system by which the people get some return for the money expended is too

ridiculous. I was suggesting that the department should send out to officers blank forms stating what places and what stores they visited, and the people from whom they got information. It is ridiculous that public officers should be drawing salaries for sending reports of this kind.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I ask my hon. friend if
it is really not a little better to have such a letter, stating that the officer is still alive, than to have the old system under which we received news of these men only when they were asking for payment.


William John Macdonald: The supervising collector for each district was expected to give his attention to the performance of their duties by the men under him. The department held the supervisor of the district responsible for the men under him. If my hon. friend regards these documents as reports I can only say to him that they are the most ludicrous reports that ever went into a Government.


Mr. MAECIL:: I followed the discussion that took place yesterday and I did not wish to interrupt it because 1 was not in possession of certain documents that have been laid on the table this afternoon by the minister regarding changes made in the officers in his department in the constituency of Bonaventure. I would like to ask the minister who the employees of his department are in Bonaventure county now?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. J. T. Dagneau has
been appointed as temporary assistant Inspector of Weights and Measures in the county of Bonaventure. He replaced Mr. Caldwell.


Charles Marcil: Who replaced Mr. Bujeaud?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Desjardins.


Charles Marcil: Mr. Desjardins is in Ei-rnouski. Was there another appointment made in Gaspe also to replace Mr. Bujeaud?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Desjardins receives
only $200, Mr. Dagneau $450, and Mr. Myles $200.


Charles Marcil: Why should there be that difference? Their services are all the same, are they not?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: But these men do not
give all their time to their offices as inspectors of weights and measures.


Charles Marcil: 
Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I understand that he does not give all his time to this work. *


Charles Marcil: Why should he be paid $450 while Myles gets only $200 and Desjardins $300?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Because Mr. Myles has
less to inspect.


Charles Marcil: Gaspe is much larger than Bonaventure.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I am told that he has
less to inspect.


Charles Marcil: The result is that these
three men have been appointed in place of the two men who previously held office, Bujeaud and Caldwell. I understand that Mr. Bujeaud was dismissed for offensive partisanship, for having taken part in the elections in Eimouski county. With respect to Mr. Caldwell I would like to know whether an investigation was held and whether or not he was given an opportunity to defend himself.	'


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No investigation has been given to Mrs* Caldwell. We had received solemn declarations stating that Mr. Caldwell had been a partisan and that is the reason for his being dismissed.


Charles Marcil: Does not the minister
think that he should have been given a hearing? Mr. Caldwell was supposed to be a respectable man?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I have no doubt that Mr. Caldwell is a respectable man, but my information, sworn to in these affidavits, convinced me that he was guilty of the offence that he was charged with and I sanctioned his dismissal.


Charles Marcil: I would like to draw the attention of the minister to the first of these affidavits, in which the charge is made by John D. Eoss that Mr. Caldwell participated in the provincial election of 1908 and at a time when he was not employed in the department. The charge made by Mr. Eoss against Mr. Caldwell ante-dates the last election by five years. He says:
I know Mr. Arthur Caldwell, of New Carlisle, assistant inspector of weights and measures;
2nd. That at the provincial elections of 1908, Mr. Arthur Caldwell took an active part in the elections in favour of me Liberal candidate, J. H. Kelly;
3rd. That on nomination day, the said Arthur Caldwell placed the Masonic Hall at the disposition of the Liberal speakers without any authority from the officials of that body;
4th. I was present at the aforementioned

meeting and by the way Mr. Caldwell behaved on that day, I took him to be one of the Liberal leaders.
Does the minister think that is a very serious charge?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: There are other affidavits. For instance, here is one by Daniel Walker, who says:
That I know Mr. Arthur Caldwell, assistant inspector of weights and measures, residing and domiciled in New Carlisle;
2.	That on the 17th September, 1912, to wit:
A few days before the election, I heard Mr. Caldwell canvassing at the door of the Presbyterian church in favour of the Liberal party.
There is another one, signed by J. E. Roy, in which he says:
That I know Mr. Arthur Caldwell, assistant inspector of weights and measures, said Mr. Arthur Caldwell living in New Carlisle;
2.	At the federal elections of 1908 I saw Mr. Caldwell standing at the door of the building where the poll was held, holding and checking a paper which he held in his hand and which to the best of my knowledge, I took for the electoral list;
3.	By the way Mr. Caldwell acted that day he gave me the impression that he was one of the Liberal leaders in New Carlisle.
Then there is the affidavit of Mr. Ross, which my hon. friend has read. James Edward Mill makes the following declaration :	*
1.	I know personally Arthur B. Caldwell, ot New Carlisle, in the said county and district, one of His Majesty's inspectors of weights and measures.
2.	The said inspector has oeen in the past, and is now ' an offensive partisan ' inconsistent with his duty as a federal employee;
3.	I know that the said inspector has always and is now taking an active part in local and federal politics in the said county and district;
4.	The said inspector has canvassed, and is still so doing as a Liberal;
5.	More especially, have I seen the said inspector as one of the principals, forming part of a political procession of Liberal views, during May, 1912, on or about, the tail end of the same being a Liberal dog deeKed in blue, and on different other occasions.
And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing it to be true.


Mr. J. J. HUGHES:: What kind of a Liberal is a Liberal dog?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I do not know, I am sure.


Charles Marcil: The minister is a lawyer, a distinguished member of his profession, and as such does he not think it would only have been common justice to have given this man a hearing or an opportunity to meet those who made these charges against him? The hon. Postmaster General (Mr. Pelletier), who has been looked upon as the forerunner of the movement in connection with dismissals in my constituency, gave some of those against whom charges were made there, a chance to be heard. He even sent certain forms for them to fill out, and he gave them an opportunity of saying something before the axe fell. But in this case no opportunity was given at all. I am sorry that this is so because Mr. Caldwell was one of the best men in the service of the hon. gentleman in that county. Mr. Caldwell, was appointed to replace Mr. Kelly, father of the present local member for the constituency. Mr. Caldwell had given good service to the department. I give you my word that I never knew Mr. Caldwell to take the least interest in politics; I never asked him to canvass for me or to give me any assistance whatever. I frankly told the minister that last year, when he spoke to me about the matter. Mr. Bujeaud went on the platform and took his official life in his hands. In the case of Caldwell an injustice has been done, because the minister would not give him an opportunity of meeting the charges. I think the feeling of the entire people of the county is to that effect. There is one affidavit, outside of that of Mr. Ross, against whom I have nothing to say. Mr. Mills is a lawyer and he will be able to take the responsibility for what he says. The second affidavit is one to which I wish to call the attention of the minister, because it says that on the 17th of September, 1912, he heard Mr. Caldwell canvassing at the door of the Presbyterian church in favour of the Liberal party. Well, we all know what it is in the country, when people meet at the door of the church they talk about different things, and to charge a man with canvassing, in a case like that, is a very general charge to make. Under all the circumstances, I am sorry for the reputation of the minister that opportunity was not given Mr. Caldwell to meet the charges. So far as the new appointments are concerned, I know nothing of them; exfcept that Mr. Desjardins is of Sayabec, in the county of Rimouski. I know nothing about Mr. Myles except that he is a strong Conservative and belongs to Gaspd comity. I am very familiar with Mr. John T. Dagneau, and he is about the strongest partisan on the Conservative side, that we have in the county of Bonaventure. When the Estimates come before us for the Post ^Office Department, I will be able to show that in connection with the removal of a large number of postmasters in Bonaventure county, and with regard to the work of getting evidence against them, and

all the work generally of the Conservative organization in the whole western part of the county, it was carried on by Mr. John T. Dagneau, who was afterwards appointed postmaster at Robitaille. He was appointed to that office on the ground that he had been dismissed in 1896. During the time he was postmaster at Robitaille, he secured a second position in the Inland Revenue Department, and he passed over the post office to his brother. What I want to call the attention of the minister to, in simple justice, is, that if these men have been dismissed because they were active partisans, he should keep his eye upon Mr. John T. Dagneau, who is the strongest partisan we have in the county of Bonaventure. In the case of John T. Dagneau, when the time came to appoint him postmaster at Robitaille, I wrote to the Postmaster General and asked that Mr. Quinn, a very respectable old man, who was the postmaster at Robitaille, should be given an opportunity of being heard before he was dismissed, because it was notorious that Mr. Quinn had taken no part in politics. The minister replied he was sorry he could not give Mr. Quinn a hearing, because he had decided to appoint Mr. Dagneau, on the ground that it was a reinstatement, as he held the office previous to 1896. Immediately after that came the new appointment of Mr. Dagneau as preventive officer. I think, under all the circumstances, that Mr. Dagneau has had a fair share of the patronage and has been well paid by the Conservative party for what he has done. What I am sorry to learn, for the nominee of my hon. friend from Rimouski, is, that his protege receives only $200 and the protege of my hon. friend from Gaspe (Mr. Gauthier) receives only $300, while Mr. John T. Dagneau, who has a smaller territory to cover, and who has been able to juggle the postmastership of Robitaille between himself and his brother, has managed to get out of the Department of Inland Revenue $450. Out of curiosity I would like the minister to give me a report from Mr. Dagneau as to what he has done since he has been in office.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: 1 would like to learn from the Minister of Inland Revenue whether Mr. Caldwell was dismissed because he was preaching Liberalism or because he was simply preaching before the door of the Presbyterian church. So far the matter has not been made clear.


Charles Marcil: The affidavit says he was canvassing before the Presbyterian church door.	'	! j


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: That was preaching
out of church.


Charles Marcil: I suppose he was accused of preaching in favour of the Liberal party, but is there a report from Mr. Dagneau?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: There is not a report,
here but I will make inquiries.


Charles Marcil: The net result is that instead of the country paying $500 per annum for these services as was paid under the Liberal Government, we are now paying $950 for exactly the same services, and this is merely a reward for partisans. I have no doubt that my hon. friend from Rimouski (Mr. Boulay) will admit that Mr. Desjardins is a good Conservative. I know that_ Mr. Myles is. end I am quite sure that Mr. Dagneau is. I wish to repeat that in the case of Mr. Caldwell a real injustice has been committed.


Mr. H. BOULAY:: I congratulate the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) on his frankness in acknowledging that his friend, Mr. Bujeaud, did more than enough to justify his dismissal. As a matter of fact, Mr. Bujeaud took an active part in every general election that was held in the county of Rimouski of late years. In 1908, he even,
I believe, took a hand in the electoral fray at Rimouski, and he should at that very time have been dismissed by his party, had they applied the principle just laid down by the hon. member for Bonaventure in regard to Mr. Dagneau.
As regards the charge made by the hon. member for Bonaventure that this Government has increased the amount which the country is called upon to pay towards the inspection of weights and measures, by appointing three inspectors instead of those formerly in- charge, I may state that he is mistaken and that the expenditure is in no way increased. Thus, Mr. Bujeaud was getting $400 per annum, and at the time of his dismissal, Mr. Desjardins, of Sayabec, was appointed to take his place, jointly with a man in the county of Gaspe, and up to date they have been paid $200 each per annum. However, I understand that for the coming year Mr. Desjardins' salary will be increased, and that is only fair, for he has two counties to go through, while Mr. Dagneau and the inspector for Gaspe have only one county to look after.
Excise-Rental, fuel, travelling expenses, $55,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What revenue has been received from the inspection of electric meters?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: $118,000.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Does that include gas
meters as [DOT]well as electric meters?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Electric meters only.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The total estimated cost of that service is only $73,950. Does it not occur to the minister that the department has no right to make a profit out of the inspection of these meters? It is quite a heavy tax. As a matter of fact these meters are only inspected about once in every five years, and generally only when the consumers request it. It does seem to me that when the law of the land is that these meters should be inspected the Government should stand a proportion at least of the expense.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The amount collected has been $74,803; the expense of inspection is $33,760; the expense of standard instruments and maintenance of equipment $8,945, leaving a balance of $32,120.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Which goes into the
consolidated revenue fund?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We are obliged to spend $12,000 for the laboratory and instruments.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The instruments do
not wear out so rapidly that you have to spend $12,000 in each year. You 'have made a profit of $32,000 on this transaction, which is about 100 per cent. Does it not appeal to the minister that the consumers should contribute $32,000 to the revenue of the country over and above the amount required to carry on the service? That is a direct taxation on the consuming public. Three or four years ago there was quite a large reduction made in the cost of inspection but the number of meters have increased so rapidly that this has now become a revenue-producing scheme.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I am pleased to be
blamed for having a surplus, but perhaps next year we will have a deficit and we will also meet with blame for that. These technical officers receive very low pay and believing as I do that they should have a larger salary, I will take into consideration the observations of my hon. friend.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I do not know whether
or not it is a fact that the officers are underpaid, but realizing as I do that it requires well trained and almost technical men to perform this duty, if it is necessary to pay higher salaries I will find no fault. I think we have only one officer of this kind in the province of New Brunswick, and I do not
see how that officer can be engaged more than two or three months in the year m actual work, because one officer will inspect for a year all the meters in a town, in a couple of days. I am not saying that the officers do not do their duty, but I do say there should not be this very heavy charge upon the public. So much more electricity is being consumed now than formerly that the minister can very well afford to cut these by one-quarter and still cover all the.expenses of inspection.
Mr. KYTE * Before the committee rose at six o'clock the minister promised to bring down the report of his deputy minister as to the special qualifications of Mr. Vincent for the position to which he has been called in the department.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Here is the report of the Civil Service Commissioners


George William Kyte: I asked for the report of the deputy minister of the department which is required under the provisions of the Act.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I have not the report of
the deputy minister, but I have the certificate signed by Mr. Shortt and Mr. Laro-chelle.


George William Kyte: The important part is the
report of the deputy head of the department. Section 21 of the Civil Service Act reads:
II the deputy head reports that the knowledge and ability requisite for the position are wholly or in part professional, technical, or otherwise peculiar, the Governor in Council, upon the recommendation of the head of the department, based on the report in writing of the deputy head, may appoint a person to the position without competitive examination-
The minister, therefore, was unable to act until he had a report from the deputy head and that is the report I would like to have.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Here is the certificate of the Civil Service Commissioners:
The Civil Service Commissioners have had under consideration an application from the Minister of Inland Revenue to issue a certificate of qualification under the provisions of sections 21 and 33 of the Civil Service Amendment Act, 1908, in favour of Mr. J. U. Vincent with a view to his appointment as Assistant Deputy Minister of Inland Revenue in subdivision A of the first division at an initial salary of $3,300, being $500 in excess of the minimum salary prescribed for tnat subdivision of the service.
The commissioners understand that Mr. Vincent's proposed appointment to the position of assistant Deputy Minister is intended to afford him an opportunity to become familiar with the administration of the department in order that

the Government may later appoint him to the position of Deputy Minister ui inland Revenue, an appointment which does not require the accompaniment of a certificate from the Civil [DOT]Service Commission. Under these conditions, and considering that the professional qualifications of Mr. Vincent as a lawyer of considerable experience would render him qualified to fill the position for which he is recommended.
Now, therefore, this is to certify, pursuant to the provisions of section 21 of the Civil Service Amendment Act, 1908, that, in their opinion, Mr. J. U. Vincent possesses me requisite knowledge and ability, and is duly qualified as to ihealth, character and habits for appointment to the position of assistant Deputy Minister in .subdivision A of the first division of the Department of Inland Revenue. The commissioners further certify, pursuant to the provisions [DOT]of section 33 of the Act, that Mr. Vincent possesses the exceptional qualifications required for the performance of the duties of such position.
Dated at the office of the Civil Service Commission of Canada this 16th day of August, 1913.
Adam Shortt,
M. G. Larochelle, Commissioners.


George William Kyte: The recommendation of the [DOT]Civil Service Commission is one that would issue as a matter of course. As for setting forth any special qualifications possessed by Mr. Vincent, it shows, on the contrary, that he was appointed to the department to use it as a training school to fit him [DOT]for the deputyship.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: And his health is good?


George William Kyte: Yes, a doctor's certificate on that point would have been at least as convincing. Under the law the Civil Service Commission could not act until they had the report of the deputy minister setting forth the technical qualifications that Mt. Vincent possessed. That being received, as I have said, the report of the Civil Service Commission would follow as a matter of course. But the report shows that he is to be paid $3,300 and given an appointment that will give him opportunity [DOT]to team for the position of deputy minister. I submit that the minister has not brought down the information that the committee desires. I think he has no reason to complain of the treatment he has received from this side during the progress of Supply. I would ask the minister to suspend further consideration of his Estimates until the report of the deputy minister is brought down.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I can only produce what I have.


George William Kyte: Is there a report from the deputy minister on the subject?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No, there is a recommendation signed by the minister, as follows:	-
The undersigned has the honour to recommend that Mr. J. U. Vincent, barrister, of the city of Ottawa, he, from the 1st October, 1913, appointed, under the provisions of section 21 of the Civil Service Act of 1908, to the position of assistant Deputy Minister of Inland Revenue vice Mr. William Himsworth, promoted to the position of Deputy Minister, at a salary of $2,800 per annum, and that, under section 33 of the same Act, he be paid from the 1st October, an additional salary of $500 per annum, making his total salary $3,300, he being possessed of exceptional Qualifications required for the performance of the duties of such position.
Hereunto attached is the certificate of the Civil Service Commission in support of such appointment.
W. B. Nantel, Minister of Inland Revenue.


George William Kyte: I submit that there is no legal authority for the appointment of Mr. Vincent in this position. Under the Civil Service Act he should have submitted himself to examination by the commission unless he possessed special technical qualifications to fit him for the position to which he was to be appointed. The appointment under section 21 could not have been made at all except upon the recommendation of the deputy head of the department setting forth his special technical qualifications. The minister himself has to admit that fto such report has been made by the deputy head-nothing more than a recommendation that Mr. Vincent be appointed to this position. I can well understand that the deputy minister with pressure brought to bear upon him by the minister and some of his colleagues would sign such a recommendation. But it does not comply with section 21 of the Civil Service Act. So, we are face to face w:th the fact that the present Government, in order to reward its supporters for past political services, will, in defiance of the Civil Service Act and of the established practice in all the departments, dole out positions with from $2,500 to $3,300. I think it is as well the country should understand what is being done by this Government in the matter of driving a coach and four through the clauses of the Civil Service Act. We have had a good deal of criticism in the past on the part of hon. gentlemen on the other side, particularly by members of the present Government, concerning the necessity for Civil Service reform. Truly we have had Civil Service reform with a vengeance since these gentlemen came into power. We have had hundreds and thousands of officials dismissed upon allegations of partisanship though in

fifty per cent of the cases no evidence of partisanship has been adduced and the plain fact is that these men were dismissed so as to provide positions for hungry followers of the Government. The Civil Service Act is defied, the highly-paid Civil Service Commissioners are ignored except that they are asked to act as a stamping machine to certify men to office. If there is a defence for all this on the part of the Minister of Inland Revenue, I am curious to hear what it is. The hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy) some time ago moved for a return showing the number of those who had been appointed to public office by virtue of section 21 of the Civil Service Act. I do not remember at this moment the number of such appointments, but I venture to say that the case we have unearthed to-night is not an isolated case. We have to-night uncovered what I regard as the greatest scandal in the matter of appointment to public office; and I think it would be well for members on this side to go thoroughly into the appointments listed in the return of those made under section 21.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: May I be permitted to add that the very unfortunate part of this whole transaction is the fact that we have had the confession of the Prime Minister that he is the man who made this recommendation. It seems to me it would have been bad enough coming from the Minister of Inland Revenue, but when the Prime Minister himself is the prime mover in violating the law, in appointing men to office without authority, in practically pilfering from the public funds from $2,500 to $3,300 a year, it is so serious that there ought really to be an investigation into the matter. And I want to tell the Minister of Inland Revenue before we separate that if he never did another good thing in this world, he has done well to shoulder off this nefarious transaction upon the Prime Minister.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is there any
danger of the minister's resigning because of this matter?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The Prime Minister
has himself taken the responsibility for having done this.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: We are glad to have
that on record.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: After all, I do not
think there is so much ground for complaint in this matter. Of course, if you examine the text of the law and try to put a different 91
construction upon it by reading between the lines, perhaps you may have occasion to find fault with this appointment, as well as with every appointment that has been made by this and the preceding Government.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Do not bother about
that; defend yourself.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Have I said anything to hurt the feelings of my hon. friend?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, but we are becoming nauseated by continually hearing the answer, 'you are guilty too.'


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: My hon. friend may
become nauseated or he may not; he will have to take his medicine anyway. He should not get warm over this matter; I am speaking politely about it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: So am I.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The hon. gentleman
is trying to, but he does not succeed very well. This appointment has been made in accordance with the statute. There was no deputy minister at the time, but a recommendation was made by the acting deputy minister to the Civil Service Commission, and they looked into the matter of Mr. Vincent's qualifications for the position. They made their report, and on that report the appointment was based. We are told that we are filtering away public money in doing this; surely there are more grievous charges against the Government than that.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: There are, but to say
there are does not minimize the seriousness of this offence.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: We have done nothing so very bad after all; my hon. friend has put one construction on the Act and we have put another. The law says that the Civil Service Commission has to recommend the man, and that the recommendation of Council is to be made by the minister upon the report of the deputy head. In this case there was no deputy head, but the acting deputy minister made a recommendation to the Civil Service Commission, which the commissioners approved. Surely there is nothing so very bad in all this; I do not think the appointment of this man has been so irregular as to justify all this trouble. The hon. member for Carleton will have to admit that the Civil Service Commission were consulted, and found that Mr. Vincent possessed the necessary special qualifications. I do not think my hon. friends have much reason to find fault, and I would suggest that we keep to the agreement made at six o'clock to adjourn at ten.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Even if it be after ten o'clock, it is rather hard to let go by an assertion so illogical as that put forward by the hon. Postmaster General. In the first place he says that there was no deputy head and that, therefore, there was nobody to make the necessary recommendation. In that event, nobody should have been recommended; violated was the law by the appointment of a man who was not recommended by the proper official. The very report of the commission shows that the Go\ ernment is taking this man in and schooling him for a year in order to make him ready for the duties of his office. Wny on earth does the Government not appoint a man who does not need any schooling? Why has this country to put up $3,000 to educate a man who does not know enough to occupy the position? Then the Postmaster General says that the man who was appointed had all the necessary recommendations and qualifications; he got the certificate of the acting deputy minister; he got the certificate of the Civil Service Commission, and nothing more was necessary-yet this country is paying $3,300 a year to teach him how to do his work. The whole thing is a farce upon the face of it, and I am surprised that even the Postmaster General should attempt to defend it.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: My hon. friend is departing from the question. He says now that this man is being educated or trained for his position.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is what the report says.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I do not think my
hon. friend will find outside of the public service a man who may not learn something in carrying out the duties of a position in a department so technical as that of Inland Revenue.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Why did they not promote one of the men in the department who knew something about the work?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The Civil Service
Commissioners have been appointed by law to be the judges of the qualifications of persons for appointment to positions in the Government service. They came to the conclusion that the gentleman in this case possessed the necessary qualifications, and I think the hon. member for Carleton has no right to find fault with the Government in respect of his appointment.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend knows
that no such recommendation would have been made if the Government had not asked the Civil Service Commission for it. If the Government had asked the commission to pass upon the qualifications of one of the officers of the department, they would have recommended him just as readily.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The Civil Service
Commissioners are not inclined to do things simply because they are told to do them.


Charles Murphy: Since when.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I am not allowed to speak of the late Government; my hon. friend may become nauseated, but since this Government has come into power we have never had reason to say that the Civil Service Commissioners have been too obliging. For my part, I have been unable to promote deserving men in. my department who were appointed by my friends on the other side simply because Mr. Shortt of the Civil Service Commission thought he knew more about it than the officers of my department. Mr. Shortt does what he considers to be his duty; he does not do this or that simply because he is told to do it. He has a pretty solid head on his shoulders, and he is not to be led into doing anything unless he wants to do it. This being disposed of-


William John Macdonald: Not yet. I should like to ask the hon. Postmaster General a question.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I have my hands full in dealing with the remarks of the hon. member for Carleton without the hon. member for Pictou butting in.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The matter is not disposed of by any means.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: If my hon. friend is not satisfied now I will never try to satisfy him, because it is useless to try to persuade any one who will not be persuaded. As to my hon. friend's remarks that the Civil Service Commision were told to do this-


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I did not say that; I will tell my hon. friend what I did say. I said that they had done it because this name had been handed to them. What I am finding fault with is that they handed the name of an outsider and not . the name of some official in the department. I am not saying tnat the commission did this because they were told to do it, but because this was the only name put forward to

them. I do not know what the Civil Service Commission did. I do not know what investigation they made, because unfortunately the report does not contain that information.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Yes, it does.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: They practically certify that he was a man in good health and fit physically to occupy the position. I did not hear much more, so my hon. friend is arguing entirely from wrong premises. I cannot understand why it was necessary to violate all the principles of the Act, in order to get in a man who, my hon. friend admits, did not know anything about the department, who had to take a year to be educated about the department. This is the man whose name was sent to the Civil Service Commission when there were plenty of good men in the department who did know the duties intimately, who had been educated for years, who would not have had to go to school for a year at a cost of $3,300, but who possessed all the necessary information, who could have been promoted to occupy the position-and then this affair never would have happened.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The whole difficulty is this, if I understand my hon. friend, that the appointment has been made of a certain gentleman who should have been suggested to the Civil Service Commission, whereas a promotion should have been made from the employees. Surely my hon. friend will admit that the head of the department has got certain rights in that respect, and that he certainly has the right to submit to the Civil Service Commission the name of a gentleman to be appointed as sub-head of his department. That surely goes without saying. The appointment has been made on the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission; it has been regularly made.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: You have not the proper certificate from the deputy head.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: There was no deputy head.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Then you have no jurisdiction.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Does this mean that if you have no deputy head of the department, no appointment can be made?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, because my hon.
friend knows that under the Civil Service Act he has a right to appoint a deputy minister. They did not appoint a deputy minister, they proceeded in an irregular man-91}
ner, without jurisdiction, and appointed a man, not deputy minister, but simply to draw $3,300 and be educated in order that he could be made deputy minister. That is what we find fault with. I know what the law is; I know my hon. friend could have appointed a man deputy minister, but the man was not fit to be appointed deputy minister and therefore they had to break and violate the law, and appoint him without a proper certificate. My hon. friend admits that they have no jurisdiction and he says:	Well, what are we going to do
about it? I say, do nothing, follow the law, and you will not get into these scrapes.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: We have followed the law.


George William Kyte: The committee are losing
sight of an important section of the Act:
If the deputy head reports that the knowledge and ability requisite for the position are wholly or in part professional, technical or otherwise peculiar, the Governor in Council, upon the recommendation of the head of the department, based on the report in writing of the deputy head, may appoint a person to the position without competitive examination .. . provided the said person obtains from the commission a certificate, to be given with or without examination, as is determined by the regulations of the commission.
The first thing was to get a report from the deputy minister or the acting deputy minister. There is a reference to the report of the acting deputy minister in the report of the Civil Service Commission. There was a person acting in the place of a deputy head and if he had made a recommendation, the Governor in Council would have passed upon it. It appears to me that none of these conditions were complied with. The Postmaster General admits that there was no Teport from the deputy minister or deputy head of the department, and all he has read is a certificate from the Civil Service Commission that this person had all the necessary qualifications; but they only said so as an echo of the report given to them by the acting deputy head of the department. This deputy head should have reported that he had the ability requisite for the position and that it was wholly or in part professional, technical or otherwise peculiar. There is no such report as that and that is the only report upon which the Civil Service Commission could intelligently act. I repeat that not one of the requirements necessary under section 21 has been complied with and there is the further fact that the Civil Service law was set in defiance by reason of the

applicant for the position not being obliged to undergo an examination. I think this is an extremely serious matter, and the explanation of the Postmaster General has not put it in any better light than it was in before he- contributed to the debate.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I must say I have
done my best. If I have not succeeded-


George William Kyte: When the Postmaster General, with his ability, fails to make a better defence than he has done, it is evident that no defence is possible.


William John Macdonald: The minister says
that he wrote the Civil Service Commission requesting them to carry out the recommendation of the Government.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I did not say that.


William John Macdonald: They indicated that in his department the executive officers had made certain recommendations to this commission which they refused.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Yes.


William John Macdonald: What were those
recommendations?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I think I could name one, but I will bring them before the committee when my Estimates are up. There are in my department men, deserving men, not appointed by me, who were in the department when I assumed office, and whom I am told are deserving and ought to be kept in the department, men who every one, my deputy minister, and all the important officia's in the department, think should be promoted, and then Mr. Shortt says, no.


William John Macdonald: Do you think the Civil Service Commission are wrong?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I do, and I hope,
without betraying any secrets, that the law will be amended in such a way that the head and the deputy head-


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Trust them for that.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: My hon. friend may say what he likes, but if you have in your department a man who works well, who gives you satisfaction, who will work night and day when 'his services are required, and you feel that you ought to give 'him a chance to be promoted and you are told by a .man who does not know anything about the inside workings of the department that you must not promote that man, it is too bad.


William John Macdonald: Pretty hard. Then
what are you going to do with the Civil

Service reform which was one of the chief planks of the policy of this Government? I understood they were going to extend the beautiful policy of Civil Service reform to the outside service.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: That is coming, my
dear friend.


William John Macdonald: My ihon. friend is
doing his best to smash up what we have.


Charles Murphy: My hon. friend is complaining while he has the remedy in his own hands, but has not chosen to apply it. At the last session provision was made for the appointment of a third member of the Civil Service Commission.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I know.


Charles Murphy: That appointment has not yet been made. If that appointment had been made the promotions to which my hon. friend refers could be made, even although the member of the commission whom he has indicated had objected.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I must say my hon. friend is absolutely right, and when a man is right, whether in opposition or not, it is proper to tell him so. If we have had these difficulties, it is probably because we have not appointed that third member of the commission; but these things will cure themselves by and by.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is the end of the commission, then.
Progress reported.	'
On motion of Mr. Pelletier, the House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.
Monday, March 9, 1914.