1914-01-30

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 41, respecting the Canadian Northern Railway Company-Mr. W. H. Sharpe.
Bill No. 42, respecting the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway Company-Mr. Shepherd.
Bill No. 43, respecting Queen's University at Kingston-Mr. Nickle.
Bill No. 44, respecting the Vancouver Life Insurance Company of Vancouver, B.C., and to change its name to ' The Vancouver Life Insurance Company '-Mr. Stevens.

Mr. MIDDLEBRO moved:: That the Auditor's General's report and the Public Accounts for the year ended March 31, 1913, be referred to the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. BORDEN moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
Mr. SPEAKER:: I understand that with the consent of the House no motion is necessary. If the House does not consent, the motion will have to be made.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: We are for the first time applying the rule which was adopted last session in regard to going into Committee of Supply, and which is a departure from the rule formerly in existence. Before we proceed, I would like to ask my right hon. friend the Prime Minister for his understanding of the rule, so that we may know in the future exactly the position we are in. The rule reads as follows:
On Thursdays and Fridays when the Order of the Day is called for the House to go into Committee of Supply, or of Ways and Means, Mr. Speaker will leave the Chair without putting any question, provided that . . . the Estimates of each department shall be first taken up on a day other than Thursday or Friday.
My understanding of the rule is that if the House is moved into Committee of Supply on a day other than Thursday or Friday, and if at the conclusion of the day the subject matter of the department under consideration has not been exhausted, then when the House goes into Committee of Supply on Thursday or Friday, Mr. Speaker leaves the Chair without any motion. My understanding is that when you commence the consideration of the Estimates of a department, it must be done by the making of a motion. To-day we have no department whose estimates we have commenced, and therefore my right hon. friend the Prime Minister has moved the House into Committee of Supply. If we had commenced on a department on a day previous to to-day, Mr. Speaker would have left the Chair without any motion.


Mr. BORDEN:: For the purpose of the estimates of that department.


Wilfrid Laurier: For the purpose of the department. In other words, I take this to mean that the consideration of the Estimates of any department must be first commenced by a motion, and, if not finished within the day, it goes on automatically, Mr. Speaker leaves the Chair, and it is taken up again on Thursday or Friday.


Robert Laird Borden: That seems to be the understanding.


Wilfrid Laurier: Then, as that seems to be the understanding, what are we to understand by the word 'department' which is used in this rule:
On Thursdays and Fridays, when the Order of the Day is called for the House to go into Committee of Supply, or of Ways and Means, Mr. Sneaker will leave the Chair without put-20i
ting any question, provided that, except by the consent of the House, the Estimates of each department shall be first taken up on a day other than Thursday or Friday.
To-day I understand we are taking up Civil Government, and taking it up as one department. On page 8 of the Estimates we have these words, 'Civil Government, amount to be voted, $6,413,378.75.' That is what is required for Civil Government. In this amount is included the expenditures of the various departments for the Civil Service at Ottawa; for instance, there is for the Customs Department $615,987, and again on page 96 we have another vote, item 342, amounting to $4,210,000, for the Customs Department. If we take up to-day all the departments and exhaust them, I suppose this will not be considered as having gone into the Interior or Customs or Excise or any other department, but that when the time comes for us to consider these appropriations, the House will have to be moved again into Committee of Supply?


Robert Laird Borden: I understand it very
much in the way that my right hon. friend understands it, except that I think he has perhaps construed the rule a little too favourably to the Government, if I apprehend him correctly.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am too generous to the Government; it is a fault of mine.


Robert Laird Borden: Only unintentionally. I would think that every one of the departments which are enumerated, commencing at page 8, would be regarded as a separate department, and not as one department, as the light hon. gentleman suggests. In so far as I understand the construction of the rule, I think there is no difference of opinion between himself and myself. I would further say that we are taking this up practically by consent to-day, as the Government could not reasonably ask hon gentlemen to go on except by consent, and I would not regard any commencement that we may make to-day as bringing the case within the operation of the rule. We must bring each one of these departments before the House on some other day before we can make use of the rule in regard to Thursday and Friday.


Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:: Other than Thursday or Friday?


Robert Laird Borden: Other than Thursday or Friday. I think that is quite fair and reasonable, and I assent to it at once.


THE STEAMER ALERT.
[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Mr. Borden for Committee of Supply:
Mr. W. F. CARROLL (Cape Breton South):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to read the following article dated North Sydney, January 27, 1914, which appeared in the Sydney Record:
The Government revenue steam tug Alert, which is owned by a Sydney real estate broker and incidentally' receives the princely sum of $18,000 per y'ear of the people's money, was pressed into service yesterday to convey Tory organizer Hayes and Tory candidate Philip McLeod from North Sydney to the northern parts of Victoria county. The primary object of establishing this branch of the preventive service was to put a stop to the traffic of contraband liquor into Cape Breton seaports. Prohibition is one of the planks of the Tory platform. It is also an offence punishable by fine and imprisonment to carry intoxicating liquor from one part of the province to another. Notwithstanding all this some of the barrels placed on board of the Government boat on its northward journey looked uncommonly like vessels containing ordinary booze. But although taken from a bonded warehouse and conveyed on board the ship by a teamster employed by a wholesale liquor dealer, they might have contained nothing more harmful than tomatoes of the Colchester county brand. In any event it is safe to say that the Government never intended to furnish Mr. Philip McLeod with a private yacht for electioneering purposes, even if he is the Tory candidate for Victoria county.
For the information of the House I may say than an election for a member for the local legislature of the piovince of Nova Scotia is taking place in that county and the election will be held on the i2th day of February. My only intention in reading this article is to bring it to the attention of the Government, or I suppose, more particularly of the hon. Minister of Marine and Fish-eiies (Mr. Hazen). He is not in his place at the present time, but I would be glad if he would tell this House whether or not the tug Alert, which is in the Government service, has gone to either one of the ports of Victoria county on an electioneering service and whether or not she has been ordered there by the department. If the hon. gentleman does not know these facts, I would ask him to have an investigation made and to give an answer to the House later.


Robert Laird Borden: 
Wilfrid Laurier: And there has been no change whatever since the change of Government.


Robert Laird Borden: I think there has been a change; at least I hope the e has been. I am free to admit there ought to be a change.


PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND RAILWAY.
[Stage Direction]
On the mot on of Mr. Borden for Committee of Supply:
Mr. J. J. HUGHES (Kings, P.E.I.):: I call the attention of the Prime Minister and of the Minister of Railways to the very large increase which has taken place recently in the freight rates on the Prince Edward Island railway. I undirstand that the matter his been brou ht to the attention of the Minister of Railways by the supporters of the Government, and by dele a ons from my province, but so f r no red ess has been obtained. I a so under tand, there s very litt e hope that there will be any relief given. The increase in the rates on the Prince Edward Island railway is twenty-five to thirty per cent over the former rates, which were in the rs Ives auite onerous. In the judgment of the people of my province the exist ng railway rates are not in t e best interest of the ra.lway, and they certainly are not in the interest of the people. On some commoli-ties the rates have been increased to such an extent that they are actually prohibitory, the increase raag.ng from sixty to one hundred per cent.


Mr. COCHRANE:: Keep on, you are doing well.


James Joseph Hughes: I can give you an instance of that. From my o.m p< rsonal knowledge, the r ite on fire vood or c rd-wood, haul d from New Ze .land s ation, Harmony station, and New Harmony station to Souris, was formerly $3 and $3.50 and it is now $7. Tnat rate is prohibitory.


Francis Cochrane: That means $7 a car.


James Joseph Hughes: Yes.


Francis Cochrane: How many miles.


James Joseph Hughes: Between five and ten miles.


Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG:: I wish we
could get it hauled in On ario for that.


James Joseph Hughes: The people engaged in that traffic are hauling by team rather than by railway.


Mr. BRADBURY:: It would cost double that in the West.


James Joseph Hughes: I am addressing my re-ma ks to the Minister of Railways. I h ve letter^ irom the most reputable and largest business men in the province asking me to bring this nia.ter to the a.tention of the Government. Carvell Brothers, the largest wholesale business men in Charlottetown, and who I th.nk are supp rters of tie present Administration communicated with me on this matter, as have also M ssrs. Poole and Thomp on of Montague who do a large produce business. I quote a paragraph from a letter rec.ived f.om this firm:
In addition to the above we are informed that all freight rates on the Prince Edward Island railway have been advanced, except on Mussle mud, and the rates on cordwood, lumber, coal, hay and straw, lime, limestone, cement, brick, sand, gravel, stone, live stock, fertilizer, &c., are practically prohibitive, and will certainly result in loss of business for the railway as well as tying up the commerce of the country.
That is a condition of affairs that ought to be looked into. I am surprised that the Government did not take more heed of the representations made by their supporters in this House and by the delegations that have come from Prince Edward Island to interview them on this subject. The Prime Minister will remember that he visited Prince Edward Island shortly before the last Dominion election, and he held meetings there which were largely attended. There was a meeting held at Souris, the town in which I live, and the day being fine the meeting was held in a field, and it was largely attended by farmers and others. The Prime Minister referred to the grievances under which the people of the province were labouring in the matter of transporting their products. The right hon. gentleman stated that if he should come into power, one of the first things to which his Government would address its attention would be to redress these grievances. Well, there has been no redress in the line of reduction of rates, but on the contrary the rates have been increased. That is why I make a special appeal to the Prime Minister. I am quite sure he made that statement and that promise in good faith, and I am also sure the people who listened to him thought
it was in good faith. And yet we see the result. I do not think the Prime Minister would wish to have a result of that kind, I would ask him whether we may expect these grievances to be remedied and what action the Government will take.
I want further to call the attention of the Minister of Railways to the fact that last autumn, in Christmas week I think, about one-third of the trackmen were discharged, temporarily, as I understand it. At all events, one of the permanent men from each section of the road was discharged. That was a cruel thing to do right at the beginning of winter. The wages received by these men is barely sufficient to support themselves and their families, and yet right in the beginning of winter, in Christmas week, the Government dismissed them for the winter season. The men could not get any other work at that season of the year. From what I know of the Minister of Railways, I do not think that personally he would approve of conduct of that kind, but, nevertheless, his department did it. Possibly the man responsible for that is the General Manager, who is receiving a princely salary, I understand $20,000 a year. That man is in a position in which he is not obliged to feel the necessities of men who are earning a bare living wage of from $1.50 to $1.70 per day. Why, if you had a horse which had served you faithfully during the summer season, you would not turn him out at the beginning of winter to starve; if you did you would be put in prison at the instance of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to animals. I repeat that I do not think the Minister of Railways would personally do a thing like that, but being the head of the department he must be held responsible. I would now ask the Minister what redress these poor men are going to get. So serious was the matter that the trackmen held a meeting amongst themselves, and the men who had not been discharged agreed to work only alternate weeks so that they would thus share their wages with the men who were thrown out of employment. They knew thier comrades could not support their families during the winter months. That is a condition of things that is quite serious. Now, will the Minister of Railways take steps to reinstate these men, and to prevent the issuing of an order of that kind in future? I believe that personally his better nature would prompt him to take action of that kind.
!0

I also wish to ask whether we may expect any redress so far as decrease in rates- which are excessive and which were certainly not contemplated-on the Prince Edward Island Railway. I am satisfied that if the present Prime Minister, when he went before the people of Prince Edward Island previous to the last general election, had told the people that if he were placed in office he would raise the rates on the Prince Edward Island railway to the extent they have been raised, he would have received very few votes indeed in that province.
I wish that the minister would give me an answer on these points.


Francis Cochrane: As to the raising of
the rates, the increase has taken place just as on the main line of the Intercolonial railway. I may say, however, that before I came into office, and continuously for a long time, there has been a deficit on the Prince Edward Island railway, and that deficit is still about $100,000 a year.


Mr. EMMERSON:: And it always will be so.


Francis Cochrane: I suppose it will.


Henry Robert Emmerson: The very necessities
of the case make it inevitable.


Francis Cochrane: The hon. gentleman
(Mr. Hughes) did not say that we had raised the men's wages about 25 per cent since we came into power. It is to be remembered also that all kinds of materials have increased in price, and consequently it costs a great deal more to run now than it did a few years ago. Instructions were given to the officials at Moncton six months ago that if hardship arose in regard to any item they must inquire into the matter. According to the statement the hon. gentleman quoted he could haul wood five miles, as I understand him for $7 a car. I can only say that that rate is cheaper than it can be done in any other place in Canada that I know of. I am confident it is not the usual rate. With reference to the laying off of section men, I know that has been a hardship. But all other railways do it, and I do not know why a government railway should not be run like other railways, in a business way. If we are to continue to support government ownership and operation, we must have the ordinary business course of management.


James Joseph Hughes: Then no redress need be expected?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply (Mr. Blondin in the Chair).
Civil Government-Governor General's Secretary's Office-Salaries, including A. F. Sladen, $3,300-$24,725.
Mr. CRUISE-What is this special provision for?
["He has not made any very strong effort to prevent it. Has he ever prosecuted a man for desertion? I know that in our little army and in the Mounted Police if a man deserts his engagement he is prosecuted as a warning to the others, but my hon. friend has closed\n\nhis eyes, has done nothing; but he still maintains the service. What answer has he therefore to the criticisms of my friends behind me? Why does he ask this appropriation if he does not want to have a naval service? If you do not want to have a naval service, just go back to the condition we were in in 1911. Then the Hydrographic Survey, the Fisheries Protection Service, the Wireless Telegraph Service, the Tidal Survey, the Patrol of Northern Waters in Canada were under the Department of Marine and Fisheries. All these matters have oeen transferred to the Naval Service, and I think very properly transferred; but my hon. friend takes the consequences, he repudiates the principle. I do not know that he can justify himself or has answered successfully the criticisms of my friends behind me.\nAt six o'clock the House resumed, and then took recess.\nThe House resumed at eight o'clock."]
Robert Laird Borden: This is according to the practice that has been followed for & good many years in the case of the Governor General's Secretary's office. [DOT]


Henry Robert Emmerson: How does it arise?


Robert Laird Borden: I could not inform the
hon. gentleman at present as to the origin of it.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Is it the usual vote, or exceptional?


Robert Laird Borden: It is usual-in this way, that it has been voted in this manner for. a number of years.
Civil Government-Privy Council Office- Contingencies. $S,400.


Mr. MURPHY:: There is an increase of $1,000 here.


Robert Laird Borden: There has been an unusual number of appeals from the Board of Railway Commissioners to the Privy Council, and in connection with some of these, I think, stenographers have been employed to take a note of the arguments. So far as I recollect, that is the purpose of this increase.
Civil Government-Royal Northwest Mounted Police, $19,675.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: To what position has Mr. Hamilton been appointed?


Robert Laird Borden: To the position of Assistant Comptroller.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Does the business of that office require all Mr. Hamilton's time?


Robert Laird Borden: So far as I know.


Mr. OLIVER:: Is that a new position?


Robert Laird Borden: No.


Mr. PROULX:: Does Mr. Hamilton come under subdivision A of the First Division?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, the First Division.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Is he appointed under the Civil Service Act?


Robert Laird Borden: Yes.


Wilfrid Laurier: Has this appointment been made by promotion?


Robert Laird Borden: No, Mr. Hamilton was
not in the Civil Service before.


Mr. McCRANEY:: Who was the former occupant of this position?


Robert Laird Borden: During the period when Colonel White was comptroller of the Northwest Mounted Police, Mr. Fortescue, the present comptroller, was assistant comptroller. Upon the superannuation of Mr. White, Mr. Fortescue became comptroller, and Mr. Hamilton has been appointed assistant comptroller.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has Mr. Hamilton entered upon his duties?	[DOT]


Robert Laird Borden: I understand that he has about entered upon them; I think that the Order in Council has been passed, but I am not absolutely sure of it.


Mr. NEELY:: Having been appointed under the Civil Service Act, I presume that he has passed the usual necessary examination?


Robert Laird Borden: He has complied with the provisions of the Civil Service Act as they have been understood for many years and as they have been interpreted by the Department of Justice under the late Administration as well as under the present Administration.


Charles Murphy: That is to say, he was appointed under section 21, under which no examination is held?


Robert Laird Borden: He has been appointed
as an assistant deputy minister. I think it has been ruled, if I remember correctly, that the assistant to a deputy minister may be appointed in the same way as a deputy minister. I think several illustrations can be given of that procedure.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: What is Mr. Hamilton's salary?


Robert Laird Borden: 


Edmond Proulx: Is it a fact that the Government cannot obtain a sufficient number of men in Canada as recruits for the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, and that they have to obtain them in England?


Robert Laird Borden: I will have full particulars of that when we come to the main Estimates of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police. The recruiting has been almost altogether carried on in the British Islands; I am speaking from recollection.


Wilfrid Laurier: Recruiting is always easy when there is a will.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think that recruiting for the Royal Northwest Mounted Police has been easy in Canada during recent years.


Wilfrid Laurier: We always got a full supply in Canada. I am glad that so many of those who came from the British Islands were good men.


Robert Laird Borden: Did not my right hon. friend obtain recruits in the British Islands?


Wilfrid Laurier: Perhaps so,
I did not say no.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not say yes, but that is my impression.


Wilfrid Laurier: It seems that we can get good officers, however, without going outside of Canada.
Civil Government - High Commissioner's Office, London, $45,955.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Many prognostications are being made in the newspapers as to who is to fill the office of High Commissioner, and we are unsettled as to who is to be the successor of the late High Commissioner. Can the right hon. Prime Minister give us any information?


Robert Laird Borden: Except in so far as my hon. friend can get relief from the newspapers, I am afraid he will have to remain unsettled at present.


George Perry Graham: Who has charge of the office now?


Robert Laird Borden: The secretary.


Frank Oliver: Is it the intention of the Government to permit the office to remain vacant for any considerable length of time?


Robert Laird Borden: Naturally the Government is disposed to fill an important office of this kind as soon as it can reasonably be done.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has the Prime Minister had any applications for the position?	'


Robert Laird Borden: Up .to the present time, not one.


Charles Murphy: Is there any intention on the part of the Government to change the location of the office in London? Has the Government given any attention to the purchase of -a site somewhere in the Strand, to the acquisition of which it is understood

that the late Lord Strathoona was very much opposed?


Robert Laird Borden: Does my hon. friend
refer to the Al-dwyeh site proposal?


Charles Murphy: I think that is the
name, yes.


Robert Laird Borden: The Government has not come to any conclusion in regard to securing a site in London beyond this: that for the time being at least we do not intend to take any steps in the matter without very careful consideration. Certain negotiations were had in regard to what is known as the Westminster Hospital site, but these negotiations have been discontinued, and no arrangements are pending with regard to any other site.


George Perry Graham: The ex-Governor General has taken quite an interest in one of the projects, and I am not prepared to say that I am not somewhat impressed with his arguments in reference thereto. Has the Government any correspondence in regard to the matter which might be fairly placed on the table?


Robert Laird Borden: I will consider my hon. friend's suggestion, and see if there is at the present time any correspondence which it might be desirable to lay upon the table of the House. In any event, whether or not it is desirable to lay correspondence on the table at this juncture, I shall be very glad to give my hon. friend, or any other hon. gentleman on the other side of the House access to any correspondence that has taken place.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I understand that
the former Governor General, Earl Grey, is in favour of one central overseas Dominion building, to be occupied by representatives of -the dominions. Has that question to be determined before anything can be done?


Robert Laird Borden: I do not know that that question has absolutely to be determined excepting in so far as it might be determined by the selection of some other site, than the one	suggested.	As I
have said, the Government has discontinued negotiations with regard to the acquisition of -any site. While representations have been made to the Government, as well as to hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House, -setting forth the advantages of the scheme to which reference has been made, the Government has taken no action whatever with reference to that

scheme. If any -action is taken in that regard, we will, of course, communicate our position to the House during the session, at the earliest possible moment.


Frank Oliver: I may be out of order in bringing this matter up, but it is well known that the late High Commissioner discharged the duties of his office with very great credit to himself and to Canada, and was able to do so only because of having large private means. Now that the Government is faced with the necessity of selecting a successor, the question Of the financial circumstances of the possible successor may come under consideration. I do not know that I will be warranted in asking the Government if they have decided upon any change of policy as to the amount of remuneration granted to the High Commissioner-that is if they have felt that the remuneration should be on a basis that would enable a man without fortune to occupy the position or if they have decided to leave it as at present so that the post can be filled only by a person having large private means.


Robert Laird Borden: I think my hon. friend's question is a very proper one, and the subject which he mentions is one proper for the consideration of the Government. Up to the present time it never has been formally considered by the Government, although doubtless in the minds of the members of the Government as well as in the minds of hon. gentlemen in this House generally there has been the knowledge that some addition would require to be made to the salary, unless we are to be restricted to the appointment of persons possessed of very great private means. The subject will have to receive consideration by reason of the vacancy which has taken place through the lamented death of Lord Strathcona, and it will receive consideration.


George Perry Graham: I noticed a despatch the other day in nearly all the Government organs saying that Lord Strathcona, near the close of his life, had made a suggestion that the Hon. Adam Beck should be his successor. Have the Government heard anything of that ?


Robert Laird Borden: I am not aware that Lord Strathcona made any suggestion to 4 p.m. the Government with regard to the subject.


George Perry Graham: The Government, of course, would not take my advice.


Robert Laird Borden: Do not be too sure.


George Perry Graham: But it might be good
nevertheless. There is no question but that the late High Commissioner was a credit to himself and to all concerned, and it would be very difficult, practically impossible, to fill his position in every respect. We in Canada are advancing now to a higher status than we have ever had before; our business interests are greater than they have ever been, and are rapidly developing. My own view is-and I have no particular individual in mind-that the Government would be well advised to select an active man for that position who knows Canada and Canadian affairs generally. It would be a great mistake to select a man who is not in close touch p with Canadian affairs, merely as a recognition of past services or anything else. The interests are too great to be trifled with, and I think it would be wise for the Government to consider carefully the selection of such a man as I have spoken of; but at all events they should not consider the appointment of any man who is not in close touch with Canadian affairs. Such a man could be of great assistance both to the empire and to this Dominion in that position.


Robert Laird Borden: At pages 30 and 31 there are the details of several votes for the Commission of Conservation and the Civil Service Commission.


George Perry Graham: Could my right hon. friend give us the names of the officers of the Conservation Commission ?


Robert Laird Borden: If my hon. friend desires that information I shall ask that the item be not taken up.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is the Government satisfied that there is justification for the rapid increase in the cost of administering this commission ? I think there is room for doubting the wisdom of the wide latitude given this commission in the many matters in which they are supposed to take an interest. For instance, a publication was issued the other day in reference to oyster culture. Their investigations and the publication of that book alone would mean the expenditure of a considerable sum of money. At the same time the Department of Marine and Fisheries are naturally specially charged with the administration of all fisheries, and I know they have devoted considerable time and made considerable expenditure of money of late years particularly in connection with oyster culture. This is one instance of overlapping of work between
the Conservation Commission and one of the departments of government, and I think there are other illustrations of this.
I have not given very much consideration to the matter, but I think it is worthy of a little consideration and investigation by the Government whether or not the Conservation Commission are infringing upon the duties of some of the departments of government. I think further that it is worth while considering whether, after all, the services done to the country by the commission are worth its cost or whether the same services could not be as well administered by some other department of government. I recognize the fact that the commission have performed some service to the State, and the crusading work having been completed, it may be that the work can be better performed by other departments of government.


Robert Laird Borden: I would not care to enter upon the discussion without better preparation than I have at the moment. Some question was raised about this item, either last session or the session before. On that occasion I procured the very fullest information as to the work which the Commission had performed, and placeditupon'Hansard.' On that occasion also, the Committee listened to a very instructive speech from the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Beland), who is a member of the Conservation Commission and thoroughly familiar with his work. I supported the appointment of a Conservation Commission and the legislation by which it was constituted, believing it would be of great service to the country, and I have no reason to change the views I then entertained. It is quite possible there may be some overlapping of work; that is to be avoided as far as possible, and I would like to remind my hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) that overlapping of work sometimes occurs even between different departments of the Government. Therefore, the mere transference of the work of this Commission to a department of the Government would not remedy the overlapping of which he complains. If my hon. friend would let the item stand, I will give him full information as to the work.


Wilfrid Laurier: The Commission was appointed some four years ago on the model of the Commission appointed in the United States, and so far we have every reason for believing that the work done by the Commission has been extremely useful. They have gone very far in many directions

and particularly in one direction. I say the work which is being done by the Conservation Commission in regard to forestry is beyond praise. Last year there were less fires, at all events in the southern part of Ontario and in parts of Quebec, than in any previous year, and this is largely attributable to the efforts of the Commission. If the Commission had done nothing more than that, it would have more than justified its existence. The Chairman of the Commission, Hon. Clifford Sifton, is a very able man, and I do not think a more competent man could be found for the work. I do not know what the Commission have achieved in other directions, such as tuberculosis, but with regard to the conservation of forests I cannot for my part sufficiently emphasize my appreciation of what they have done. There is no subject of greater importance at the present time, especially in the southern parts of Ontario and Quebec, and if the Commission were to do nothing more than to teach the people the importance of this matter, I repeat they would more than justify their existence. I have taken but a cursory view of the Estimates, but I have not found any appropriation this year for a Forestry Congress. From time to time forestry associations have met in British Columbia and in Quebec, and in bringing to the attention of the people the great necessity of forest preservation have largely justified the small expenditure they involved, and I would suggest to my right hon. friend to put in an appropriation in the forthcoming Estimates for a forestry congress.


Robert Laird Borden: I entirely concur in the appreciation which my right hon. friend has expressed of the work of the Conservation Commission, in the prevention of forest fires. In one way and another, I have been brought into touch with their work in that regard, and it is not too much to say that the saving which they have effected to the material wealth of the country in that regard would pay all the expenses of the Commission, not only ten but a hundred times over. So far as the proposal to hold the forestry congress is concerned, I should be very glad indeed to take into consideration the suggestion which the right hon. gentleman has made.


Wilfrid Laurier: If I remember correctly there was one held about two years ago, in British Columbia, I think.


Robert Laird Borden: But not here.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: That was an association, not a Government affair.


Robert Laird Borden: At all events I shall look into the matter and give consideration to what my right hon. friend has suggested.


George Perry Graham: Might I be allowed to
give a concrete case of the good work done by this commission-a case where they were useful to at least one department of the Government. It is true they may overlap but I am not sure that that is to the detriment of the public. When the question of protecting forests along the lines of railway came up, there was very strong objection on the part of railways to legislation that was being discussed at that time by private members in the House. As it was a very serious grievance, I called together on one occasion, one or two men who are deeply interested in the protection of forests, as individuals, two representatives of the railways and two of the representatives of the Conservation Commission including the Chairman, I think, and one other, and before they separated they handed me a draft section for the amendment to the Railway Act. It was acceptable to the railways and to the lumbermen and is now part of the Railway Act, and of great benefit I am told. Had it not been for the Conservation Commission, I am afraid we should not have been able to come to such a satisfactory conclusion. Although I would like to know the names of the officers for one or two reasons that I may discuss later on, I am strongly in favour of the work of the commission and if they do occasionally make mistakes, I have known even Governments to do that.


Robert Laird Borden: Former Governments.
Item stands.


Charles Murphy: May I ask my right
hon. friend, before we leave this item, whether in connection with the representations that are made from time to time to liis Government with regard to a supply of pure water for the city of Ottawa, he has had the benefit of the advice or cooperation of the Conservation Commission? I ask that because the commission carried out an inquiry with reference to the typhoid epidemic and perhaps other epidemics. They made extensive inquiries and published one or two reports and it occurs to me that the officers of the commission would be in possession of valuable information which the Government ought to have before entering into any arrangement in regard to our water supply.


Robert Laird Borden: The answer which the
Government made to the application of the city of Ottawa involved as its first condition, an abundant supply of pure water. Up to the present time, the city has never been able to come to us and say they are ready to proceed with a certain proposal. When they do come to us with the assurance that they will be able to carry out a certain proposal, we will avail ourselves of the technical assistance of the officers of the Conservation Commission as well as all other necessary technical assistance, in order that we may be sure the country is not spending its money on an imperfect or poor supply. Up to the present day I have not had occasion to ask the assistance of the officers of the commission in that regard.
Civil Service Commission-Commissioners' salaries, $15,000.


Charles Murphy: This is a department
which comes, I think, under the administration of my hon. friend the Secretary of State. I do not see him present, and we require some information which perhaps my right hon. friend would not have in his possession.


Robert Laird Borden: No.
Item stands.
Civil Government-Department of Trade and Commerce, $103,237.50.


Frank Oliver: What is the occasion of the increase over last year?
Hon. GEORGE E. FOSTER (Minister of Trade and Commerce):	Speaking generally, there is nothing but the statutory increases. Then, specially, there is an increase of one in the first division, subdivision A and of two in the first division, subdivision B, making the number of increases three in the whole. That is for the Department of Trade and Commerce proper. In the Census and Statistics branch there is provision made for three at the minimum in the third division, subdivision A, because in the arrangement for the statistical work of the department for next year we shall need to have some more help in the way of stenographers and clerks.
Going back to the Department of Trade and Commerce, we are making provision for the establishment of the grain laboratory in connection with the grain work of the department. In the United States they have of late been paying a great deal of attention to the more scientific investigation of grain
as regards the qualities of grain, the moisture contents and problems that arise in storage and transportation, with the idea of getting at a scientific basis for coming to better conclusions as to the management of the grain itself and also as to the value of grain distributed under the different standards. It seemed to me that some such work as that ought to be undertaken as soon as possible in Canada where we have so large an output of grain at present with almost illimitable possibilities for the increase of the output. Our grain production is going to be one of the great productions of the future, and we need as good scientific knowledge as we can get in reference to it, as well as good distributive and administrative knowledge in the practical working out of the Grain Act. The Grain Commissioners took up the matter, and after a pretty thorough investigation they made a report recommending the establishment of a laboratory. We propose to start it with two chemists, one an over chemist who is the real grain chemist, and the other whose duty shall be more in reference to arriving at the values of grain as regards milling, baking and bread-making properties. It is proposed to establish this at Winnipeg, and to conduct tests there mainly. We shall have to get accommodation, which is now being arranged for, and a certain amount of laboratory material will be necessary to enable the chemists to carry on their investigations and make their experiments. In connection with that, as the work goes on, there will be a deeper and more thorough experimentation and analysis required which will necessitate larger means at the disposal of the chemist in the shape of laboratory facilities to enable him to thoroughly carry these investigations out. It is proposed to accomplish that part of the work in affiliation and co-operation with the laboratories either in Montreal or in Toronto in connection with the universities. That will be for taking certain matters up and submitting them to laboratory tests of a rather delicate and thorough nature. It would be too costly for us to equip the laboratory at Winnipeg to enable the chemist to carry on that work.
The board were instructed to make inquiries and to get information as to the proper officials for this and as a result they recommended the appointment of Dr. Birchard, who had a distinguished course in the University at Toronto and who since then has been employed in Washington in the prosecution of this kind of work under the Government there.

and in the Government laboratories of the United States there. He has, as I have said, had a distinguished career and his qualifications seem to be of a very high character and such as would indicate him to be a man thoroughly qualified to carry on that work. Then, in regard to the other side of the work, which, in one sense, is the more practical, or at least has the more practical side to it, we had to arrange and after a good deal of search we hoped to be able to get a man from the University at Minneapolis who has been engaged in that kind of work for the State authorities there, but we were not able to do that. In the end we have been able to get a man who has been connected with the same kind of work under the Government of the United States at Washington and he was recommended to us by the authorities as being as good a man as can be obtained in the United-States for this work.
These two will form the staff as far as the scientific part of it is concerned. A stenographer and a clerk, the two combined in one, will do the rest of the work that is necessary and a moderate supply of laboratory equipment will furnish them with what is necessary for carrying on their work. The head chemist is already at work and naturally his duties fell in with the general work of the administration of the Act, but after considering the matter it seemed to me that the staff equipment of the laboratory for carrying on this investigation might well be provided by the Government from the general fund and that we might thus relieve the fund which arises from the imposition of fees upon the grain that passes inspection and leave that free from this part of the work. Therefore, I introduce it here, and I would like the committee to give the necessary authority for the employment of these chemists, and vote the necessary sum so that at the beginning oi the fiscal year these officials shall be a charge upon the general consolidated fund.


Mr. DEVLIN:: Was it impossible to get competent officials in Canada?


Mr. FOSTER:: We have had practically
no experimental work of that kind in Canada, and in the inception of the work you can only get your expert men from places where they have had training and experience. We could not find these men in Canada just at this time. But our chemist is a Canadian by birth and education, and his family live in Canada.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: But the other one?


George Eulas Foster: I do not think it is best, at the inception of this, to take men without experience and without training, because we want to start in the very best possible way.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: I agree with that.


George Ewan McCraney: Have not experiments been carried on at the Experimental Farm at Ottawa, in reference to the milling qualities of wheat?


George Eulas Foster: Such experiments may
have been carried on in a very casual way. What the experimental farms are chiefly after, is, to get a variety of grain which as a seed will have good qualities and will ripen as early as possible.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Are the duties of the Commissioner of Commerce superior to those of the Deputy Minister of the Department; I see he is paid a higher salary than the deputy minister.


George Eulas Foster: It sometimes happens that a salary is paid to -a man in the service which may be higher than the salary paid to another man, who, in certain respects, has wider duties and greater responsibilities. The deputy minister is the sole deputy minister of the department. The Commissioner of Commerce is an official with special qualifications and special experience, and I was able to get his services from the British Government for the special purpose for which I desired them, and I paid him exactly the same salary as he was being paid by the Colonial Office for the work he was carrying on as British Trade Commissioner in Canada.


Mr. NESBITT:: What is he supposed to do?


George Eulas Foster: The Commissioner of
Commerce, under the direction of the minister, has to pay special attention to the commercial exchanges, their source, their destination, and the process of interchange.
I placed under his personal supervision our trade commissionerships in different parts of the world, and all our transactions with the British consular service in so far as they relate to trade and commerce. I am not saying anything as to the previous work done in -the department, but any minister who has had charge of a department knows that the work of a deputy minister must extend over every part of the department. He has to be general supervisor of everything, and it is not possible for a deputy minister who has a

large department to spend too much time on any one service. This service was, in my belief, of sufficient importance to have direct supervision, and a directing officer, in order to get from the expenditure of a large amount of money, something like the return we ought to have. I am not at all satisfied we .are getting all the return we ought to get from the trade commission-erships at the present time, but we are improving that service. One of the most -effective ways of improving it is to have that service understand that there is some man who is especially charged with seeing that the work is being carried on properly.
I have had the Commissioner of Commerce visit all the trade commissionerships in Europe, and China and Japan. I was fortunate enough to be able to look in upon them in Australia and New Zealand, so that during the past year we did, what was never done before, and which I am sure every one will admit ought to be done. The change has resulted in the very best influence, and I purpose that every year in some way or other an officer from the head department shall get into communication in the locality with the trade commissioners, and in that way come to a better appreciation of the work that is *being done and that is to be done.
Another very important part of the work, and which I think has been neglected in the past, is, that after we had been successful in getting valuable information from the outside, a great deal of that information has not been able to penetrate to the points in Canada where it might come into contact with those whom it would benefit. It is one thing to gather good information; it is another thing to see that information properly and wide y distributed. It is the design of the department to make that information thoroughly available and to distribute it more widely than in the past. Then the man who is outside, in order to do good work on the outside, must occasionally refresh himself at the fountainhead, and I am not sure but what, taking year in and year out, three months or so spent by one of our trade commissioners from abroad in Canada interviewing the men with whom he has had a good deal of correspondence in the course of the year, would be a good thing for the service.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is not
going to be one of these commissions whose reports are shelved?


George Eulas Foster: It is very unkind to make that remark at the present time when I am serious.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: In my judgment the appointment of the trade commissi n:r is a good idea, as is also the bringing of the commissioners home to interview those in Canada who have trade with foreign countries. I do not understand yet, ho \ ever, how the deputy minister, who is over the whole department, should get less salary than the man who is in charge tnly of: a branch of the department. I would like to know how the producer in the West can be benefited by the work of the gram chemist?


George Eulas Foster: As a general proposition, the producer will get the most benefit in proportion as he has larg.r knowledge with reference to the article he produces.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I refei to the ordinary
farmer.


George Eulas Foster: If these officers can come to correct and scientific conclusions as, for example, to the moisture in grain and how it affects storage and transport and get it down to the point where it will be made as safe as it possibly can be made, that will have the effect of standardizing conditions under which grain may be marketed, and stored and transported, end the producer, of course, will benefit from that.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: How does the minister
propose to distribute that knowledge?


George Eulas Foster: That will be distributed
broadcast through our bulletins and the newspapers. One looking at the number of bulletins distributed every week would be apt to say that it bore a very small proportion to the number of people who ought to be reached. But I have had that matter particularly followed, and I find the bulletin is multiplied a thousand, perhaps ten thousand, times by reproduction in the newspapers of pertinent information contained in these bulletins. 1 am trying to get the trade commissioners to appreciate what it is the most important for our people here to know and to put that into pithy and luminous reports. These reports are given in the bulletins, and when you get such matter into the bulletins, the newspapers do not have to be solicited to put it into their columns. It is very gratifying to see the number of extracts made from our bulletins and given wide circulation in the newspapers throughout the Dominion. The processes discovered by these chemists

will be published in bulletin form and distributed as widely as possible.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Speaking of trade agents, has Mr. Poindron of the Paris office been replaced? He has been removed, I do not know whether by death or resignation, and I believe there is no trade agent there now. Am I correct in that?


George Eulas Foster: No, my hon. friend is not correct, if he says there is no trade commissioner there. When I came into the department, I found a double-headed arrangement in Paris. At the head of one part was a commissioner, and at the head of another, Mr. Poindon. It became possible to do eway with one section of it, and the trade commissioner in Paris now is Mr. Roy. Mr. Roy is not in any sense one who represents Canada in a diplomatic or financial way. He is charged with the trade commissioner's work and is doing that work. It would not be fair, and it would not be correct, to say that we have no trade commissioner in Paris. The business of the trade commissionership is being done by Mr. Roy and very much more effectively than when I took charge of the department.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: I know Mr. Roy to be
highly competent in his work, and I know he has given Canada great satisfaction. But I did not think it possible in France to have the commissioner general act as trade agent when in other countries there are several trade agents. That is why I asked the question.


George Eulas Foster: There is not in any sense a separate form of agency in France any more than in other countries. Mr. Roy does in Paris what the trade commissioner does in Australia. He is the commissioner and represents Canada. All questions regarding trade are directed to him, and the answers so far as he can give them are sent from his office. He also carries on communications with inquirers, and for any information that he has not, he applies to us. The whole modus operandi, so far as the trade commissionership is concerned, is in full operation between this department, Mr. Roy and inquirers in France.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK:: And the minister may fairly claim that he has made a necessary economy ?


George Eulas Foster: I did not see that it was necessary to have two separate establish-
ments doing the same business and quarrelling with each other while doing it.


George Ewan McCraney: The minister has
spoken about the distribution of information obtained by his department. He deals first with the bulletins. Can he tell us through what means and to what persons and bodies these bulletins are sent ? In my own city of Saskatoon I have never seen the bulletin except as I receive it as a member of Parliament. It may be that the board of trade receives it, also the university library, and the public library, and others. If they do not, I would suggest that these are very popular bodies to be in receipt of the bulletin. Perhaps the hon. minister could tell us what rule is followed in regard to that.


George Eulas Foster: What we have to guard against is the sending of bulletins to persons where they simply become material for feeding wastepaper baskets. We want to get the bulletin into the hands of those who will really appreciate it. So, there has been a good deal of sifting in that respect. All boards of trade get the bulletin, and all boards of trade are notified that if any member of the board or any person in the trade would like to have the bulletin sent regularly, he has only to send in his name. We have advertised also quite widely in that direction to get people to tell us who would like to receive the bulletin. When we send to such people we have the best ground possible for believing that they are utilizing it and getting some good from it. Not only boards of trade, but associations and public bodies of all kinds connected with trade are being made aware that we are trying to get the bulletin into the hands of those who would like to read it and file it as a means of information. Perhaps I ought not to pass an opinion on it, but I think I am right in saying that any one who will read the bulletin from week to week will find it very useful and well worth filing and keeping for reference. Last year, Mr. Poussette, our trade commissioner in South America, who is a very efficient man, acting under my instructions, made a tour of South America, visiting every one of the constituted governmental divisions, making inquiries and examinations into trade conditions, products, resources and the possibilities of interchange of goods with Canada. Mr. Poussette embodied his in-

vestigations in reports which have been published in the bulletin, and I think that any person who has had the pleasure of reading them appreciates the information given.


Charles Murphy: Early last year it was announced that my hon. friend was extending the work of his department by opening up an agency or agencies in South Africa. Is tha+ work under the supervision of the Commissioner of Commerce, and how has it resulted?


George Eulas Foster: Yes, it is in charge of the Commissioner of Commerce. Our former trade commissioner in South Africa is no longer in the work, and I transferred to that office one of the most efficient trade commissioners in Great Britain, Mr. Egan, who, I think, came originally from Montreal. Mr. Egan has taken charge of our interests in South Africa, and, I must say, is conducting a most energetic canvas of the country. His principal office is in Cape Town. I have had him make a tour of Sputh Africa, and we are establishing in five or six different places a correspondent, in each case a resident, who will work under the instructions of the Commissioner, answering all inquiries, and keeping the Commissioner generally posted with reference to trade requirements at these points. These officials are contributories to the information that Mr. Egan must himself gather, and which he reports to the Department. The system is, I think, a good one, and is working well. Once or twice a year Mr. Egan makes a tour of the country and consults with the correspondents. The correspondents work at a smaller salary, not devoting all their time to the work, but, by means of a judicious selection of men at each point, an official is generally obtained who is capable of doing the work, first because he has a tendency and a liking for the work; secondly, because it is a somewhat honorary position, and thirdly because he is doing a good service for both countries. The enlargement of trade with South Africa during the last year, so far as our exports are concerned, has been very satisfactory.


Frank Oliver: What will be the total cost of the chemistry office in Winnipeg?


George Eulas Foster: The fittings of the laboratory office will not be expensive or palatial.
We have a couple of rooms which have to be fitted up with special plumbing and the necessary laboratory material. There will be the cost of installation and the rental, services of a clerk and stenographer-one official will be necessary to do this work- and other expenses will run up to somewhere about $6,000 or $7,000 a year.


John Howard Sinclair: Are the trade representatives doing any practical work in the way of putting the people in touch with business men in this country? I understand that the commercial agents of the United States in foreign countries very often succeed in bringing orders to the business men of the United States by letting them know what is required in the places where they happen to be. For example, if a railroad were being built in Australia, would your commercial agent, if he discovered that 2,000 tons of steel rails were required in the construction of that railway, endeavour to put the contractors in touch with the steel people of Canada? Do they do practical work of that kind, or do they simply collect information and submit it to the department in the form of a bulletin?


George Eulas Foster: They are supposed so to
keep their eyes open that not a single transaction of that kind will escape their notice. Their duties do not consist of merely sitting in their offices and gathering statistical information. The official statistical information is good, but it is the smallest part of the information that a trade commissioner ought to be able to furnish the department. We have trade commissioners and trade commissioners; of course you have to have a man who is wide-awake, and who likes to work rather than sit in his office. I could name a good many of these commissioners who are doing invaluable work.


John Howard Sinclair: Referring to the example I cited to the hon. minister, how would the necessary information reach the manufacturer of steel rails in Canada?


George Eulas Foster: In the first place, the trade commissioner keeps himself alive to what is going on, say in New Zealand. He sees the New Zealand papers; he has access to Government and official information, and if he is alive to his work he knows in a general way, what is going on in every department of the Government. He knows also

what is going on so far as general expansion, improvement and development of the country is concerned; he knows what is going on in the way of railway and power development. When machinery, for instance, is required, he presents to those concerned the possibilities of satisfying their wants in this or any other respect in Canada. He puts them in direct connection with the department here, and so with the manufacturers or producers of the articles which they may require. That is the general modus operandi.


Charles Murphy: In connection with the
information which the hon. minister was good enough to give the committee with regard to the new grain department at Winnipeg, may I ask him if it is open to the general public to avail themselves of the services of these experts, or will these gentlemen perform only such services as they are directed by the department to perform? Would they make tests at the request of the grain growers, for instance, the same as would be done at the experimental farm?


George Eulas Foster: Their main object will be to take up, analyse and experiment upon grain, and the result arrived at will be published and become the property of everybody. In so far as that is concerned, they are doing a general service, and the results will be for general use. For instance, suppose some new kind of grain, thought to be of good quality, has been raised in some part of the West, it would be the duty of that department to look into that, to analyse it, find out its qualities and in that way they would be abie to advertise to the producing public the different kinds of grain of largest value and therefore the best to be raised by the producer in order to get better value and better results. We have to take'care to guard against making it a dribbling office which will fritter away its time on requests, here, there and everywhere. It must keep in view the main object. If any result should come from it it must be a practical result in the end because that is the whole design of the formation of the commission.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: If an individual farmer had a new kind of grain he would be allowed to send it to this commission to be -analysed and then the result would be made public.


George Eulas Foster: 
Mr. PARDEE:: It seems to me that that is the most feasible and important thing the agents can do, to show what trade can be done between this and other countries by getting in actual personal contact with the manufacturers of this country.


Frank Oliver: In regard to the increase in the Census Branch, what is
5 p.m. the particular occasion for the extension next year?


George Eulas Foster: My hon. friend will recollect that we appointed a departmental commission on statistics and that commission reported last year. Gradually we are strengthening in my department the statistical side. Since I took office I have gone along very slowly, I have made no additions to the working staff particularly,

and I find it is necessary, in order to carry out the work of the department, that we *should have more of what might be called secondary help, and we must have the money to pay them.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Is the hon. gentleman endeavouring to secure statistical data respecting interprovincial trade? I remember that when in opposition he always urged the necessity of this and quite properly so.


George Eulas Foster: I have given this matter a great deal of consideration. As a principle it is a very fine idea, if we could only know just exactly the currents of trade between the different sections of our own country in different products according to sectional and seasonal differences it would give us a great insight into the trade and producing activities of our country. When you come to work out a plan by which that information can be secured you encounter difficulties on every side.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Did the minister ever
try to make any arrangement with the provincial governments to secure this?


George Eulas Foster: When the report was published I sent it to all the provincial governments and also a letter calling attention to the overlapping of statistics between the Dominion and the provinces and asking their attention and that of their statistical officers to the matter to see whether we could not amongst us devise a system which would co-relate the work better, provide against overlapping and produce accuracy. [DOT] All of the provincial governments took the matter up in a friendly and kindly spirit and after that I had the Commissioner of Commerce visit all the provincial capitals and get into personal communication with the statistical officers. That has been done, and while nothing has yet eventuated in a plan, yet we have made substantial progress in the general improvement of our statistics in these two ways, by a co-relation of effort, preventing overlapping and in consequence securing greater accuracy. If we could only get fresher statistics of production in this country it would be of great benefit and I hope there is a way by which we can do this.


George Ewan McCraney: How long is it since
the statistical work was taken over by the Department of Trade and Commerce from the Department of Agriculture?


George Eulas Foster: About a year.


Mr. COCKSHUTT:: It seems to me to be a time when the hands of the minister should be held up in connection with the trade agencies in these various countries. I have not heard him say whether it is the policy of the department to extend this system to other countries not yet covered. In Brantford we have several firms doing business with twelve or fifteen foreign countries at the present time. In some of these countries we have no trade agents. I think there is not one in Russia.


George Eulas Foster: No.


William Foster Cockshutt: A very large trade is being done from Brantford with Russia. A large trade is being done with some South American republics and with South Africa. I think we have an agent appointed there. I have been a frequenter of some of the offices, having visited Australia not long ago. I then had an opportunity of seeing what is going on there and I must say that the agent in charge, Mr. Ross, was doing very fine work. They have a good office but not too good and I think this House might well be liberal with any appointments the minister might ask with a view to increasing our trade with foreign countries. At the present time, trade is sought very keenly by all the great countries in the world. Canada is comparatively small but has great possibilities, and I think the Minister is doing excellent work and should be encouraged to establish trade agencies in countries where there are none already. It will be easier to get a footing now in those countries than later on, and I would like to suggest to the hon. Minister that if we can establish in the coming year say two or three agencies in the different countries with which we have a large trade, we should do a still larger business with them if our case was presented to the people of those countries. I am speaking of Canadian products, generally, not -manufactured articles only. I think it would be of great advantage to open up trade with some of these countries in such goods as we have a surplus of. I wish to speak a word of encouragement to the Minister in this respect. I think he is making his department a real live business affair which is appreciated by business men all over the country. I think an agency should be established at London. An agency there would be an advertisement to the whole world, because people who never come to Canada do visit London, and they could see our products there. With this and a real live trade Commissioner in the heart of the empire, I believe the overseas

trade of the Dominions could be vastly increased in the next few years. It is a trade that is well worth looking after, and now that Canada is beginning to do business in foreign countries I think the Minister of Trade and Commerce should be liberally dealt with in anything he may ask for, either with regard to agencies already established, or proposed agencies. With regard to the dissemination of information I, myself, receive the bulletins regularly. I do not know whether they reach the hands of some people who want them, but I think that any firm sending a request to Ottawa for these bulletins should be obliged in that respect. I do not think it would be wise that the Minister should become, or that his agent should become, the agent of any individual firm, that would lead to confusion. The aim should be to bring together those who have goods for sale and those who want to buy. As has been mentioned by one gentleman opposite, the United States make a very great effort in the direction of having their agents act for one particular firm. They have very live consular agents, who	act	as trade
agents as well, and the spread of United States trade over the world * has been largely brought about by the men they have sent out, and who are always ready to draw attention to the trade that may be developed in foreign countries. I think we can take a leaf out of their book, although I am not favourable to copying the United States in a great many things. I just rose to say these few words in appreciation. The strengthening and information we get through these trade agencies is very helpful to the spread of trade, at least so far as our district is concerned.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I do not know that anybody on this side of the House has been criticising the Minister. We were asking for information.	i


William Foster Cockshutt: I did not speak in
that sense at all.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: We were asking for information, and I suppose we have a right to that.


William Foster Cockshutt: So far as I was concerned I had no fault to find with any-that has been asked for or said.


Frank Oliver: It is so seldom the opportunity occurs on which I can agree with my hon. friend, that I take this opportunity of agreeing with him as to the entire desirability of pushing Canadian
[Mr. Cockshutt 1
trade in all her products, whether of the field, the forest, the mine or the factory; and so far as the Minister of Trade and Commerce is minded to direct the efforts of the Government to that end, I am sure he has had evidence here to-day, that although it is our business on this side to criticise, we are also willing to commend where commendation is possible.


George Eulas Foster: If I am not boring the
Committee, I would like to say one or two things. In the first place, with reference to commercial agents and trade commissioners working for special firms, they do not do that at all. They cannot be allowed to do it. Trade commissioners are not supposed, and ought never to be supposed, to be the agents of any particular or special firms. I want to mention another thing, especially to my hon. friend here and such men as he, that no matter how much trade agencies and oommis-sionerships may be perfected, there is nothing in the wide world will do what, a manufacturer or producer fails to do for himself outside of all this which is merely helpful. The man who wants to push his trade in a foreign country has to go there himself or send his representative to put his wares before the faces of the people, and talk with them. One of the faults that we have to overcome in our country to-day is this; we do not find our commercial and manufacturing concerns and our producing concerns, in comparison with some other very live countries, pushing their trade in the world. We have not the capable, persistent, uniform representation of goods that we ought to have. Our commissioners, who work some of them very hard and after a length of time get into communication with a man who wants something in another country and the man who can provide it here, and perhaps actually get the orders find that the man here when he receives the order is lax about even answering the correspondence; or having accepted the order he delays in filling it. Or, still further, having accepted an order, after a length of time he writes to his correspondent that he is too full of business here and that he cannot fill the order.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: The hon. minister does not find that generally?


George Eulas Foster: More generally than 1 would like to find it. And it does tw'o things: it takes the vim out of the commissioner himself, who has spent a great deal of valuable time in order to make the connection, and it leads the prospective

customer to say: ' Well, I cannot do business with that man; I have riven him an order, and now he writes me that he is too full of business, and cannot fill it?5 I -wanted to speak about that, not in the way of fault-finding, but as something we should make progress in. Another point I might mention is this:	My friend here spoke
about trade commissioners in foreign countries with which we do more or less business. We have always had a friendly feeling towards Canada and Canadian trade amongst the commercial intelligence officers of Great Britain in their different consulates in different parts of the world. Most of them have been favourably disposed towards Canada and willing to answer questions and to assist us in our trade. But it never was on a basis before where each consulate felt that they were carrying out what the foreign and colonial offices wanted them to carry out in that respect. An arrangement was made, without any great difficulty and very satisfactorily, with the Colonial Office and Foreign Office by which instructions have been given to the British consuls in foreign countries that they are to adopt a certain course in any case where the Canadian department feels that there is some possibility of developing trade for Canada. Instructions have been issued by the Foreign Office to British consuls in these countries, and they may include any country where an application is made by Canada to have such done, that they are to do certain things; in the first place, to forward copies of their general reports to the Department of Trade and Commerce here; secondly, to answer any inquiries from Canadian merchants or traders that are made to them in reference to the possibilities of trade or any question that might come up between a person here and a possible trade opportunity in another country. Under these instructions they will feel that they have a warrant for doing what they did in many cases before of their own good will and of their own good will only. We have made further arrangement and it is this: Go into a country like Russia, which is surrounded by some difficulties in pushing trade from another country, official or otherwise, or go to China and you have established there old and experienced British consulates with intelligent and experienced commercial men attached to them. I am thinking of one now in the far East where I met some of the brightest commercial men whom I have ever met, who have had from fifteen to twenty years of experience in these countries, who know all the 21}
ins and outs and customs of the trade, and *particularly -the things that have to be *done in order to get trade and how to * approach people. They have had all that experience.
We have made arrangement whereby it is possible that a room shall be provided under the roof of the consulate in which the Canadian commissioner may be placed, for which room, the Canadian Government although the British Foreign Office did not wish it at all, will pay the expenses and charges. I thought it better to do that in order that we should be perfectly independent in that respect than to ask the British consulate to take upon themselves the expense of the rental. Our own trade commissioner will be absolutely under the control of the department. He will take his instructions from here and do his work under these instructions, but at the same time he will have as ready friends and helpers men of wide and large experience right at his elbow from whom he can ask advice and counsel and from whom he can get what is so invaluable-knowledge which has been gained by many years of experience. In some cases I am arranging to place men under these conditions and the British Foreign Office have gone so far as to say that they are willing to open up the consular service to young men from Canada just the same as to young men from the British Islands. In this way we get two things; we get first the value of the co-operation, experience and advice of experienced men and in the other case we are able to look forward to the time not far distant when the Canadian trade commissioner system 3hall be somewhat of a career which shall approve itself to men and which shall induce young men to fit themselves by a proper course of study to undertake this work. If they do that they have not only this position in the Canadian trade com-missionership system to look forward to but, if they wish it, they have also a chance for entrance into the wider British commercial system as well. I talked that matter over in China and Japan with the British Ambassadors and both of them are absolutely enthusiastic in joining in an endeavour of that kind. They say that a capable representative of Canada at1 their side is of as much use to them in one way as would be a member of their own consulate because he is able to give them just the information that they require in reference to a country with which in China, Japan and other countries the British Consul has a great deal to do m other matters.

Allusion was made to the consular system of the United States. It-is not so many years ago, that, I think I may say without saying anything that is not -right, the trade consular system of the United States was not a thing that United States people were proud of. From every quarter there were comments and criticisms and very sharp ones of that service. At that time it was absolutely a matter of patronage. To-day the United States consular system is placed on a stated civil service basis. Men must be approved before they enter it and then when they go into service it has its status, its permanency and also its wider horizon. To-day the United States consular service is a service that the people of the United States may very well be proud of.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Is the trade service of
Canada on a permanent civil service basis?


George Eulas Foster: It is not on a civil service basis theoretically but I intend before ioftg to ask the House to put it upon a permanent basis. My views, when I came into office, of the possibilities and mechanism of that work were somewhat different from what they are now. The two years in which I have had experience of it has been a period in which I have been trying to find out what is the best system.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Will the young men that the minister speaks of be required to speak and understand the language of these foreign countries before they receive their appointments?


George Eulas Foster: That depends. Of course in reference to British countries they have the language already.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: But in foreign countries?


George Eulas Foster: In reference* to foreign
countries, I should like to have, for instance in Japan, a man sufficiently young and sufficiently well trained as a basis and with sufficient vim in him to say to himself. I will acquire the Japanese language before I am long in this country and I will learn to speak the language that the people speak, try to think what the people think and try to enter into the true spirit andigenius of the people. You have to carry that out as best you can; in some cases it can be done and in others it cannot. There is where we get the benefit of having a commissioner in the office of the British consulate where there are men who understand Japanese, and Chinese, and Russian, and our man gets the benefit of that to some extent.


Frank Oliver: I do not wish to put my opinion against that of the minister, on the matter of doing work jointly with the British consular service, but I venture the opinion that it is possibly not the best way to advance the trade interests of Canada. Is the increase of help required in any particular branch of the statistical work or is it due generally to the expansion of trade?


George Eulas Foster: It is due to the expansion of the work generally.
Civil Government-Department of Marine and Fisheries, $309,650.


Mr. HA  ZEN@: In the second division,
subdivision A, there is a decrease caused by dropping two clerkships in the naval architect's office.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: What does the naval
architect do?


Mr. HAZEN:: Mr. Duguid is the naval architect, and he was employed on the recommendation of Lord Strathoona, before the present Government came into power. The department at that date wrote to Lord Strathcona asking him to recommend a suitable officer, and he recommended Mr. Duguid. The naval architect designs all the ships that are required for the service of the different departments of the Government. The designs and plans and specifications of these vessels are prepared by Mr. Duguid and the officers of his department.
The vote for contingencies is increased by $20,000, due to the fact that the travelling expenses of officers at Ottawa were formerly charged to the different votes, and it is now proposed to charge all the travelling expenses to civil government contingencies. The increase is merely a matter of book-keeping. Formerly, for example, if the engineer of lights travelled, his travelling expenses were charged to the general vote for aids to navigation, but these expenses will now be charged to the item of contingencies.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Is the general vote
reduced correspondingly?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think the vote for aids to navigation has been reduced. Parliament makes generous appropriations for that work, and there is generally a surplus at the end of the year. Of course, this whole $20,000 would not be charged to aids to navigation but would be spread over the different appropriations, and we thought it hardly worth while to reduce

the votes by the amount that would be chargeable to each on this account.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: None of these appropriations have to do with the naval service?


John Douglas Hazen: No, these are all Marine and Fisheries estimates..


John Howard Sinclair: Is there provision made for the appointment of a law clerk in the Marine and Fisheries Department?


John Douglas Hazen: Mr. Bourgault has been
the law clerk for a number of years past.


John Howard Sinclair: Is there more than one law clerk.


John Douglas Hazen: No.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it intended to fill
the position made vacant by the resignation of Mr. Martel?


John Douglas Hazen: 
John Howard Sinclair: Were any increases
made in the case of Mr. Martel since the change of Government ?


John Douglas Hazen: He got his statutory increases.


John Howard Sinclair: What was his salary on leaving ?


John Douglas Hazen: It was $1,750 or $1,800.


John Howard Sinclair: What is to be given his successor ?


John Douglas Hazen: The same salary-$1,800.


John Howard Sinclair: Then his successor goes in at the same salary as that which Mr. Martel was receiving on retiring.


John Douglas Hazen: It is thought that a man should be engaged who has a knowledge of law. Mr. Martel when appointed was a very young man-I think he is only twenty-six years of age now. I doubt if we could find as young a man to take the position. Then there is the fact that during the last few years there has been somewhat of an increase in the expenses here, because of the cost of living and so on. So, it is not unfair to appoint him at $1,800 a year.


John Howard Sinclair: Were other increases
made in the branch of which he was a member ?


John Douglas Hazen: None but the statutory increases.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I have been informed, I do not know whether correctly or not, that the Department of Marine and Fisheries in making appointments of technical officers has not observed the Civil Service Act with regard to the qualifications required. Possibly I am not well enough informed to put the question now in a form which will entitle me to an answer from the minister.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know to what my hon. friend refers. So far as I know there has been nothing of that kind.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: I will have to instruct myself more fully and ask the question later.


John Douglas Hazen: When technical officers are required, we apply to the Civil Service Commission under the Act. They adverting and get applications from gentlemen who state their qualifications. As a rule, they submit to us the number whom they think qualified for the position, those to whom they are ready to grant a certificate of qualification, and from that number we make our appointments. That is the way it has been done ever since I took charge Of the department.
I wonder if I may be permitted, as the Marine Estimates are still under consideration, to refer to a statement made by my hon. friend from South Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll) this afternoon. I was not in the House at the time, and I have obtained a copy of the report. The hon. gentleman read an extract from the paper to which he said he wished to call the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, which was to the effect that the steamer Alert had been pressed into the service ' to convey Tory organizer Hayes and Tory candidate McLeod from North Sydney to the northern part of Victoria county,' and further that, ' the primary object in establishing this branch of the preventive service was to put a stop to the traffic of contraband liquor into Cape Breton seaports	 Notwithstanding this, some of the barrels placed on board the Government boat on its northward journey looked uncommonly like vessels containing ordinary booze.' I do not know why the hon. gentleman called my attention to this matter, as the Alert is is no way con-
*

trolled by the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


William F. Carroll: What did the department pay for the Alert?


John Douglas Hazen: We did not pay anything.


William F. Carroll: Who did pay?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not know. The article refers to the ' preventive service.' If the steamer is under the Government control at all, I should infer that it is under the Dej:>artment of Customs.


William F. Carroll: That makes it no better.


John Douglas Hazen: No, but surely the hon. gentleman does not accept every newspaper I>aragraph as being true.


William F. Carroll: I think the hon. Minister will do me the credit of believing that I was asking for information. As this statement has been made broadcast in the press of the Maritime provinces, it should be investigated. If I made a mistake in calling it to the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, it is only because I thought all these boats were under his jurisdiction. Perhaps the Minister of Custonfs (Mr. Reid) will explain the matter?


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Will the Minister of Customs promise to look into this matter tomorrow?


Hon. J. D. REID (Minister of Customs):: ' I had not heard of it before, and I think the
article-


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: It may be a case of smuggling liquor from St. Pierre Miquelon into Cape Breton. That has been done before. I think the hon. Minister should inquire into it. Will he let us know the result of his inquiry on Monday?


John Dowsley Reid: I will. I do not know whether this steamer belongs to the Customs Department or not. But I will make inquiry and shall be glad to give the hon. member a reply on Monday.


William F. Carroll: I desire to ask the Minister of Marine and Fisheries if the Gladiator is under his Department?


John Douglas Hazen: I do not recollect that name as that of one of our vessels.


John Howard Sinclair: I would like the Minister of Customs to know exactly the information we desire with regard to the Alert. We would like to know if the Alert is at present in the employ of any department of the Government. If so, did she sail from North Sydney towards the coast of North Cape

Breton recently, and if so did she have Dr. Hayes, the organizer of the Conservative party in Nova Scotia aboard? And did she carry any freight on that occasion? These are the questions we would like answered.


John Dowsley Reid: If the steamer is under the control of the Customs Department, I shall be glad to give the hon. gentleman the information on Monday next.


Henry Robert Emmerson: I think we should know also whether the Tory candidate was on board or not.
Civil Government-Department of Naval Service-Salaries, $107,300 ; contingencies, $37,000.


John Douglas Hazen: Last year this salary vote was $100,500. The increase is chiefly made up of statutory increases. The contingencies also show an increase in this branch, just as in the Marine and Fisheries, and for the same reason, that is that all travelling expenses are charged under the head of contingencies. Now they are divided between what is the Navy, the Hydrographic Survey, the Fishery Protection Service, the Tidal Service and the Wireless Department, all of which come under the control of the Naval Department. It is proposed to have this vote under the head of Contingencies, so that it will be seen what the travelling expenses of the department as a whole are during the year.


Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin: Is any of this money expended under the operation of the Naval Service Act of 1910?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, I fancy the bulk of it is expended under that Act. Provision is made for the appointment of an inspector in the radio-telegraphic branch, to meet the increasing work in that office. Hon. gentlemen know that during the last year a number of wireless stations were erected, and it has been found necessary to appoint an additional inspector in order that the work may be carried out with efficiency; the appointment being under subdivision A of the second division, at a minimum salary of $1,600. The other changes shown are to provide for the promotion of certain members of the staff and for statutory increases in salary. I have explained the increase in connection with contingencies; it is merely an apparent increase, as the charges for travelling will be no more than they were last year.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The vote asked for by the minister under the heading of the Naval Service is one, I think, in respect of which hon. gentlemen on this side of the

House may very well request more detailed information, and if very good reasons are not given we should refuse our assent to the voting of these moneys. There is no attempt on the part of the Government of the day to administer the Naval Service Act; on the contrary, so far as we can gather, it is their public policy to allow it to remain in abeyance. There is not a ship of the Canadian navy now in service. The Rainbow, which was stationed on the Pacific coast, has, I think, been sold.


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: At least, the Rainbow is not in active service. The Niobe has during the whole summer been tied to a wharf in Halifax harbour-a condition of affairs most humiliating, I am sure, to every respectable Canadian. I have no hesitation in saying that the Government were a party to forcing men to leave the ship Niobe, and I am sure I am correct in saying that they have never yet made an effort to complete the enlistment of that ship. Notwithstanding the fact that the Government refuses to administer the Canadian Naval Service Act and does everything it can to discourage the enlistment of men under that Act, we find that the cost of administering the naval service increases. There should be some greater justification for the request which the minister makes to Parliament for the passing of the items now before the committee. Personally I do not think that this House should give its assent to the passing of these items, which are particularly referable to the Canadian Naval Service Act. The officials of the Canadian Naval Service, for whose salaries the minister now asks the voting of money, cannot be rendering any service to Canada. It may be necessary to have in the Civil Service men to administer the fisheries protection service, the wireless telegraphy service, and the like, but I submit that there is no justification whatever for the minister's asking Parliament to vote money for the administration of a service which the Government have been taking great pains to inform the Canadian people that they do not intend to maintain, for the present at least. I was told by the minister last year that the department was not encouraging the departure of men from the ship Niobe, and that the Government were not averse to securing, if possible, further enlistments to fill the vacancies that were occurring from time to time. I was also specifically told last year, in answer to a question I put to the minister, that a programme of service was contemplated for the Niobe during the summer in the way of cruises, manoeuvres, and the like, hut judging by the actions of the department since then I am bound to say that I question the bona fides of the minister and his department in the answer that they gave to me last session in reference to this matter. I think that Parliament is entitled to a reason from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the Government before a single dollar of money is granted for the Naval Service as now requested. The minister must clearly see that to ask for a vote of practically $100,000 when there is no service to administer, is simply fooling and trifling with the Canadian public and wasting the money of the people.


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend is, by his remarks, unintentionally giving the House a wrong impression of this matter. The hon. gentleman speaks as if he were under the impression that the money we are asking for the Naval Department of the Civil Government is all for the purpose of carrying out what may be called the work in connection with the navy.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: The larger part
of it, you said a moment ago.


John Douglas Hazen: I said the smaller portion of it. The Naval Department, as I have pointed out, administers the fisheries protection service, the hydrographic survey, the wireless service, the tidal service, and certain other branches of the public service. Of these Estimates, $31,060 is for the naval portion of the service, and $76,490 is for the other branches.


John Howard Sinclair: Where do you put the deputy minister?


John Douglas Hazen: One-half of the deputy
minister's salary is charged up to the naval branch and one-half to the others; this, I think, is as fair a division as may be made.


Alexander Kenneth Maclean: Has the cost of the marine and fisheries branch of the service decreased in the last year, or is it just as it was when the department administered the fisheries protection service and the other branches which have been mentioned?	,


John Douglas Hazen: I cannot answer my hon. friend, because in order to do so I would have to go back to a time before I was Minister of Marine and Fisheries. The classification of the branches of the ser-

vice took place before the present Government came into power, and I am not familiar with the figures. The Estimates for 1911 were made by friends of the hon. gentleman; since 1911 there has been very little increase in the cost of the service, and any increases have been due to the provision for statutory increases and the appointment of new officials.


Wilfrid Laurier: My hon.
friend knows that when the late Government determined to have a Naval Service Act and a naval service, a naval depart ment was established, and to this was attached certain of the branches of the service which were formerly attached to the Marine and Fisheries Department. We created, amongst other offices, a Deputy Minister of Naval Affairs, and. of course, in connection with this office there were secretaries and so on. If it be the intention of my hon. friend to vote for the Bill which is now before the House to repeal the Naval Service Act, what is the use of these estimates? The matter has only to be referred back to where it was. The hydrographic survey, the wireless service, and other branches referred to, have only to be restored to their original positions. But my hon. friend will apparently do neither the one nor the other. He will not carry on the Naval Act. As I understand it, he has discouraged the training of officers for the naval service and the enlistment of men. I do not know if he has maintained the Naval College, I think he has. So far so good, that is under the Naval Act. Has he sold the Rainbow or the Niobe?


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Wilfrid Laurier: He has kept
them without doing anything at all. They are there but have no men on them. He has made no effort to recruit men; I do not think he has even made an effort to punish men who desert the service. I do not think there has been a single prosecution for desertion; I think he has rather encouraged desertion.


John Douglas Hazen: No.


Wilfrid Laurier: He has not made any very strong effort to prevent it. Has he ever prosecuted a man for desertion? I know that in our little army and in the Mounted Police if a man deserts his engagement he is prosecuted as a warning to the others, but my hon. friend has closed

his eyes, has done nothing; but he still maintains the service. What answer has he therefore to the criticisms of my friends behind me? Why does he ask this appropriation if he does not want to have a naval service? If you do not want to have a naval service, just go back to the condition we were in in 1911. Then the Hydrographic Survey, the Fisheries Protection Service, the Wireless Telegraph Service, the Tidal Survey, the Patrol of Northern Waters in Canada were under the Department of Marine and Fisheries. All these matters have oeen transferred to the Naval Service, and I think very properly transferred; but my hon. friend takes the consequences, he repudiates the principle. I do not know that he can justify himself or has answered successfully the criticisms of my friends behind me.
At six o'clock the House resumed, and then took recess.
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 10, respecting Barcelona Traction, Light and Power Company, Limited. -Mr. Macdonell.
Bill No. 11, respecting the Burrard Inlet Tunnel and Bridge Company.-Mr. Stevens.
Bill No. 12, respecting The Calgary and Edmonton Railway Company.-Mr. Douglas.
Bill No. 13, to incorporate The Central Canada Railway Company.-Mr. W. H. Sharpe.
Bill No. 14, respecting The Eastern Canada Savings and Loan Company, Limited, and to change its name to The Eastern Canada Savings and Loan Company.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
Bill No. 15, respecting the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada.-Mr. Currie.
Bill No. 16, respecting The Lachine, Jacques Cartier and Maisonneuve Railway Company.-Mr. Bickerdike.
Bill No. 17, respecting The Ottawa, Northern and Western Railway Company.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 18, respecting The Tillsonburg, Lake Erie and Pacific Railway Company.- Mr. Currie.
Bill No. 19, respecting The West Ontario Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. Nesbitt.
Bill No. 20, respecting The Canadian

Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. W. H. Sharpe.
Bill No. 22, respecting Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company, Limited.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
Bill No. 23, respecting British America Nickel Corporation, Limited.-Mr. Northrop.
Bill No. 24, respecting The Canadian Railway Accident Insurance Company, and to change its name to The Globe Indemnity Company.-Mr. Baker. .
Bill No. 25, respecting The Manitoba and North Western Railway Company of Canada.-Mr. Douglas.
Bill No. 26, to incorporate Pacific, Peace River and Athabaska Railway Company.- Mr. R. B. Bennett.
Bill No. 27, respecting The South Ontario Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. Smith.
Bill No. 33, respecting The Acadia Loan Corporation, and to change its name to The Mortgage Corporation of Nova Scotia.-Mr. A. K. Maclean.
Bill No. 34, respecting The Dominion Atlantic Railway Company.-Mr. Jameson.
Bill No. 35, to incorporate The Bank of Edmonton.-Mr. Douglas.
Bill No. 37, respecting the Ottawa and Ungava Railway Company.-Mr. Chabot.
Bill No. 38, respecting the Sterling Trusts Corporation.-Mr. Gerald V. White.
Bill No. 39, respecting The Thessalon and Northern Railway Company.-Mr. Smyth.
Bill No. 40, respecting La Compagnie des Pouvoirs d'eau de Valleyfield, limitee.- Mr. Sevigny. ,

[Stage Direction]
The House in Committee of Supply.
Civil Government-Department of Naval Service, $107,300.
['53,300.\nSome resolutions reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 10.15 p.m.\nMonday, February 2, 1914.']
Mr. GAUVREAU:: Is it the intention of the department to order the Canadian cadets, now on board the Berwick stationed at Bermuda, back to the Naval College at Halifax for a new course of one year? They are under examination at the present time. I am told that when their examinations are over they will be sent back for a new course at the Naval College at Halifax for one year. Is that the intention of the department?


John Douglas Hazen: Yes, the candidates who are now on the Berwick passing their examination will be sent back to the Naval College at Halifax for a one year's supplementary course.


Edmond Proulx: Assuming that the Bill introduced by the hon. member for Mont-magny (Mr. Lesperance) passes, what will become of the Naval College?


John Douglas Hazen: I have been taught that it is time enough to bid the devil good morning when you meet him. Perhaps the hon. gentleman might ask that question when the Bill passes.


Frank Oliver: This is a somewhat serious question. A certain number of young men of Canada have been induced, we might almost say, to enter upon a presumably naval career, and they did that in the first place believing that the Government intended to carry out a certain policy that had been laid down. These young men have sacrificed their time, they have sacrificed the prospects of their life in many cases, and I think it is reasonable to ask what is the prospect for them now? It is really a very serious matter to the young men themselves and to their families, if they are not to have the advantage of a career after they have trained for it.


John Douglas Hazen: I may say that an arrangement has been made under which those who have attained the rank of sub-lieutenant are serving now upon the British ships. The Naval College alt Halifax is being continued, the course there is being carried on, and as the young men graduate from there we hope that there will be an arrangement made by which we shall be able to place them in the Hydrographic Survey. One or two have been placed at their own request on the Hydrographic Survey, where practically we require men who have a knowledge of seamanship, which is very essential for hydrographic survey work. We propose to look after these young men and to see that no injustice is done to them.


Frank Oliver: Everybody will be glad to know that the Government is going to make arrangements that will be measurably satisfactory to these young men, but if the Government is going to maintain the Naval College at Halifax, it will mean the continuance of existing conditions. Is it intended to maintain that college with a view of furnishing a supply of Canadian officers-to the British navy?


John Douglas Hazen: That matter is being taken up at the present time, but it is hoped that-the Naval College will serve not only as a training college for men who want to follow the naval career, but also as a training.

school for men who want to follow other callings, such as the work in connection with the Hydrographic Survey and other work of that sort, just as the Military College at Kingston turns out men who follow other than military careers. Only a comparatively few of the graduates of the Military College embark on a military career, but the training that they get there fits them for other walks in life. Many become engineers and engage in other professions, and it is expected that the Naval College at Halifax will serve that purpose as well, so that the men will not only become naval officers and pursue a naval career but will be able to follow other lines of work with the education that they get there.


Michael Clark: I do not think there will be a disposition to urge the Government too strongly upon this question. It will take a little time to wean them from the contribution policy in order that they may devote themselves to the development of Canada. They have been running in company with Mr. Churchill, and he is a pretty active man in getting around from one place to another. I see that the Canadian Naval Annual for this year says in so many words that the German scare was a thing that the people had to be weaned from, that it was all nonsense. It is the organ of the people who were making a great deal of the Herman scare just twelve months ago. Personally I feel that _we should be sympathetic to the Government in this matter. It will take a little time for them to wean themselves from the false line of policy they embarked in, but I hope they will become good Canadians and follow the example of New Zealand and Australia, without feeling they are very disloyal in being in such excellent company. I am perfectly sure they will come around to the idea of Canada being a good country within the empire, like the others. This hydrographic survey will no doubt work out very nicely; the country does not want the Government to go too fast with it, and if the hydrographic survey means an easy transition from the contribution policy, to the old policy they never should have abandoned, we should be patient with them. I would appeal to my hon. friend from Edmonton <Mr. Oliver) to take my point of view and allow the minister to get those Estimates, on this kind of provisional understanding.


John Douglas Hazen: I am glad that what the
Government is doing in this direction has such a valiant defender in the person of my hon. friend from Red Deer (Mr. Clark).


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: I am not an expert
in this matter, but I am quite interested in it because my son has the honour to be in the navy, studying the best way to defend his country and the empire if need be. Am I to understand that he will have to go back to the naval college? The expense to me has been quite heavy for the past two years, and I would like to know from the minister if I shall have to pay my son's expenses for another year.


John Douglas Hazen: On the contrary, I do not think the son of my hon. friend will have any expense at all. If he becomes an officer he will receive a salary.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: That is satisfactory.


John Howard Sinclair: To-night, my hon.
friend from Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) referred to the fact that the Niobe had been tied up to a wharf at Halifax during the whole season, and for aught we know the Rainbow may have been similarly tied up to some wharf on the Pacific coast. I would like to know how many men are on the Niobe and Rainbow and what these ships are really supposed to be doing? It would seem, from what the minister has said tonight that the Government does not intend to go any iurther with the Canadian Naval Service, for he told us that the cadets were to find places in the British navy when their period of study was over. If the Government has abandoned the idea of a Canadian navy, it is difficult for me to understand why we should vote this money at all. What necessity is there for keeping up a staff of officers and voting $30,000 or $40,000 to pay their salaries, if these officers are to have nothing to do? The minister should give us some information as to that.


John Douglas Hazen: More than two-thirds of this vote is for fishery protection, hydrographic survey, and other services which come under the Naval Department. We have to take care of the dockyards at Halifax and Esquimalt, under the arrangement- entered into with the British Government when these dockyards were handed over to Canada. There is a staff in each of these dockyards, and the vessels of the fishery protection fleet and other Government vessels are repaired there. Then we are continuing the Naval Service at Halifax, and that involves certain clerical aid at headquarters and elsewhere, and there is certain work to do in connection with the Niobe and Rainbow. There are about 150 men on the Niobe and a lesser number on the Rainbow, and they having -been

engaged for a ceiitain number of years we have to keep faith with them. In reply to the contention that there is no need for [DOT]a naval service department under certain conditions, I may say that if the Naval Service were abolished altogether there would be no saving as far as Civil Government Estimates are concerned, because there are not now enough employees in the Marine and Fisheries Department to take over the work in connection with the naval college, the dockyards, the hydrographic survey, fisheries protection and other similar services. The only thing that possibly might be saved would be the salary of a deputy minister, but I would ask hon. members to bear in mind that the Marine and Fisheries Department deals with a greater variety of subjects chan perhaps any other department of Government. While there are other departments of Government that are responsible for the expenditure of a larger sum of money during the year, still the Department of Marine, including the Naval Service, has a greater variety of subjects to deal -with than any other. It is very doubtful if, in view of the large increase in work in that department of late years, it would be possible to get along as one department, and my experience is that it would be necessary under any circumstances to have a division of the department with two deputy heads. Years ago when the work of the department was very much less than it is to-day, there was a deputy minister of marine and a deputy minister of fisheries. That system was abolished, but since then there have been added to the department a great many services that were unthought of years ago. Even if the Naval Service Department were abolished, it is doubtful if all the work of the department could be carried on with one deputy head.


Frank Oliver: While the explanation of the minister is very full and lucid, he will, I think, admit that from the viewpoint of the Opposition a naval service department without a navy is fairly and reasonably a subject of question. The hon. gentleman drew a parallel between the conditions of naval education and the conditions of military education, both of which are given by the Government. There is a vast difference. In the case of military education we have a permanent military force, and besides we have a very large volunteer force.


John Douglas Hazen: I think comparatively few
of our graduates at Kingston go into the permanent service.


Frank Oliver: Possibly. But at least we have the field for their abilities when they have secured the education they seek. But much the larger field, no doubt, is in connection with the volunteer force. There is a vast field of usefulness for the young men who have gone through the Kingston Military College in the line of life for which that education specially fits them. They know, before they enter the college, what the conditions are in regard to employment ir>
that line of life for which they are educating themselves. But in the case of the naval cadets they entered upon their course of instruction in the full belief that there was for them a Canadian Naval career; now, as my hon. friend has explained, we have everything in connection with the service except a navy, and the young men who have been prepared to sarcifice their time and talents in the interests of the Naval Service are left in a position that is unfortunate for them and not creditable to the Government. I think that we are fairly entitled to know what is the Government's intention in regard to the two vessels they have on their hands. Are they going to keep them in commission, or are they going to put them out of commission? Are these vessels to be tied up to the wharf, one in Halifax and the other in Esquimalt, with a partial complement of men, and neither fit for one thing nor fit for another? If that is the intention of the Government I think we are entitled to know it, and to know it now on this vote. We are voting $30,000 for the Civil Government expenses of the Canadian Navy. Now, if there is not going to be a navy, their ought not to be tliis vote. My hon. friend has explained, as he best of all men can explain, that we will need the money anyway, and that we have work to be done in other lines. That does not answer the question. We have this Naval Service, we have these two vessels; they are either fit for service or not fit for service. Is the Government keeping them fit for service, does it intend to keep them fit for service, does it intend to carry out the policy that was the reason for the establishment of the Naval College and for the purchase of these two vessels, namely, to carry out the policy of fitting young Canadians to take positions of responsibility in a navy owned, controlled and manned by Canada? I think that on this vote we are entitled to get a definite statement from

the minister as to the intentions of the Government.


John Douglas Hazen: The Niobe and the Rainbow have both been kept in a good state of repair, they have not been allowed to deteriorate; they are in quite as good a condition, if not better, than they were at [DOT] the time they were acquired by the Government of Canada. As to what disposition will be made of these vessels, that matter is under consideration at this time. It is doubtful whether the Rainbow could be disposed of at any price, if it were thought desirable to sell her, either to the British naval authorities or to any other such a body, for such a vessel would not be required in connection with a modern navy. It is doubtful also if anything could be obtained for the Niobe. It may be that the British Government would allow us to hand them back and take them off our hands, but whether we could sell them is a matter of some doubt, and it is receiving attention at the present time. The hon. gentleman asks me to state what the policy of the Government is to be in relation to naval affairs. He knows that the Prime Minister of Canada, who is the one, in circumstances of this sort, to enunciate the policy of the Government, has told this House on several occasions that before the country embarks upon a naval policy, that policy will be stated to the House and the people will be asked' whether they approve or disapprove. In view of that statement made by the Prime Minister on several occasions, I think the hon. gentleman will admit that it is not altogether right or proper to suggest that I should state to-night what the naval policy of the Government is to be, and no one more than the hon. gentleman would recognize the impropriety of my making such a statement. '


Charles Murphy: I do not see that there can be any question as to the propriety of the inquiry made by my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver). That hon. gentleman probably had in mind the answers given by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to a series of questions asked two years ago with respect to the appeal of the Naval Service Act. In those replies the minister statid that the Naval Service Act would be repealed. He further stated that after consulting the Admiralty this Government would announce its permanent naval policy and would appeal to the people upon it. Now, this Government did consult the Admiralty, but it did not announce its naval policy to the country, and it has taken no

steps, so far, to consult the people about it. So, in view of the replies given to the questions by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, I think it was quite natural for my hon. friend from Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) to ask these questions to-night. And the minister, iE he were to look round him, would see that there is a great interest taken in this question by his friends and supporters from the province of Quebec. In fact the new member for Chateauguay (Mr. Morris) has moved several seats nearer to the minister to hear what is going on-no doubt with a view to enlightening the electors to whom he is alleged to have made some statements on this subject.


James Joseph Hughes: The minister has
stated that there are over one hundred men on the Niobe in Hali.ax. These men, I suppose, are undergoing some kind of naval training. But what kind of naval training do these men get aboard a ship tied to a wharf? Would not an essential part of their naval training be the efficient management of the ship and other matters which could only be learned at sea? These men are kept there at considerable expense to the country, and I doubt very much their obtaining any training that will be of any advantage to the country, or possibly to themselves. If it is the intention of the Government to repeal the Naval Service Act, could not some arrangement be made with these men whereby they could go into other walks of life and obtain a training that would be of s me use to thei ? It seems to me that the keeping of a large body of men under these circumstances, at very great expense to the country, is a useless waste. If these men must be kept there comparatively speaking in idleness, and it may be under cond.tions that may be disadvantageous, the whole thing appears to be a most peculiar arrangement.


John Douglas Hazen: The men who are now on these ships enlisted in Great Britain at the time the ships came out here. In war vessels of this nature there is a large amount of machinery of the most complicated character. Some of these men are ablebodied seamen, but a great many of them possess qualifications for taking care of that complicated machinery. These men were enlisted for a certain period of time which has not yet expired, and we are bound to retain them until that term expires. In any case it is necessary that they should be retained in the ship for the purpose of taking care of it, seeing that it does not deteriorate and that the

machinery is kept in proper order. A large number of the men on the ships are doing that work at the present time.


John Howard Sinclair: What did it cost last
year to maintain the Niobe and the Rainbow?


John Douglas Hazen: I have not that information at hand, because I did not anticipate questions of that nature coming up on the Civil Government Estimates.


Michael Clark: 
John Douglas Hazen: The hon. gentleman's suggestion will have every consideration, I can assure him.


William F. Carroll: I must confess that there are a few things about the Niobe and the Rainbow that I do not quite understand. The minister tells us that it would be quite impossible at the present time either to give away these ships or to get anything
for them. That means that the ships are no good for anything, and if they are no good for anything, it is impossible for them to deteriorate. Why, therefore, should we spend our good money in keeping one hundred men on board the Niobe at Halifax if the ship is good for nothing, and if the Government find it impossible to obtain one cent for it ? Why should we pay one hundred men, out of the revenues of this country, to keep this worthless piece of machinery from deteriorating ? It does not sound to me like good business. I think that what the minister had in view in saying that we could not get rid of these ships was to show that the Laurier Administration had made a mistake, and had bought these ships when they were no good. They were certainly no good as instruments of war when they were taken over to this country. That was not the intention. The intention was that they should be used as training ships; that on these ships our young Canadians should learn something about the running of a cruiser, its machinery, and the processes of navigating it. I am in the very same position as the hon. member for Red Deer. If the ships are not worth a cent, why spend $20,000 to keep worthless articles from deteriorating ? It is bad business.


Frank Oliver: I think I may justify the question I asked- the minister by the remarks made by the hon. member for Cape Breton. I did not intend to ask for a declaration of the Government's naval policy; I did intend to ask what the intentions of the Government were in regard to the Niobe and the Rainbow. As the hon. member for Cape Breton has said, these vessels were bought to be used for the education of the young men who wished to enter upon a naval career; to give them an opportunity of being instructed in practical seamanship and the practical working of a man-of-war. The minister has informed us to-night that the young men who have enlisted are to be .given positions, some in the British navy, and some in the hydrographic survey, and the inference is that there is to be no naval career for Canadians. We are asked to vote money for clerical assistance to carry on the Naval Service, when we have no navy, and so far as we can judge, no intention on the part of the Government to have one. We have two vessels which are an enormous bill of expense to the country, serving no purpose, so far as I can see. If the Government were making a large expenditure of any other kind every year for

absolutely no purpose, certainly their action would be called into question. I am sure my hon. friend the minister must be prepared to make a statement in the matter.


Mr. D. A. LAFORTUNE (Montcalm) (Translation) :: Mr. Speaker, I wonder why the country should go on expending money on the navy, why the committee should pass this item.
I would have been pleased to hear from the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Nan-tel) and from the hon. member for Dorchester (Mr. Sevigny) two former members of the Nationalist party; I would like to know their opinion on the question.
On this side of the House, we speak freely on the naval policy, but our hon. friends opposite, are dumb. The hon. minister of Marine and Fisheries is the only one who dares answer our questions.
What are the sentiments of Mr. Lespe-rance, concerning this vote?
Would you be surprised, Mr. Speaker, to hear what the hon. member for Dorchester had to say during the last by-election, in Chateauguay, in October last? He was saying that the Niobe and the Rainbow were two old tubs, that they were good for nothing.
And now, the Government is asking the Committee to vote money for the maintenance of those old tubs. That is not fair.
The hon. member for Montmagny (Mr. Lesperanee) wants the repeal of the Naval service Act. I will support his Bill with both hands. What is the use of voting this money, just now? Let us, wait till after the Bill asking the repeal of the naval service Act is passed, and then the Niobe and the Rainbow can be sent back to England and be disposed of as scrap iron.
For my part, I strongly and formally oppose this expenditure. If the boats are nothing but old tubs, let them go to pieces.


Mr. H. BOULAY:: (Translation). Mr. Speaker, ohe might have supposed that the hon. member for Montcalm (Mr. Lafortune) had said enough when he spoke for four hours or five hours on that question, last year, to dispense with the remarks he has just made.
I am surprised at the stand he now takes after having voted in 1910 for the Naval Service Act, at the bidding of the Laurier government-a law authorizing the construction of a navy which comprised twelve or fifteen boats.
If it happened to be the intention of the present government to .continue the policy 
introduced by the Administration of which my honorable friend was a supporter, he should exhibit to-day the same courage as in 1910, instead of going back on what he did and said at that time. The hon. member should at least wait till the Government dispose of these two boats which they have inherited from their predecessors.
Last summer I had the occasion to pay a visit to Halifax and to have a look at the now famous Niobe. The hon member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean) wanted to know from the hon. minister of Marine and Fisheries why this boat has been kept in idleness, tied up to the.wharf, in the port of Halifax. The Niobe has been kept in idleness for the simple reason that there was nothing for her to do, and that is the best proof that Canada does not want a single battleship, and much less a dozen of them.
If the naval policy of the Liberal Government had gone through, we would have, by now, twelve or fifteen boats tied up at wharfs and the situation would be much worst than it is.
All that goes to show that Canada has no use for a navy and that if we are bound to do something, the policy of the present Government, the policy of a substantial contribution, is the wisest of the two.


Frank Oliver: Will the Government say if the hon. gentleman has cor-
9 P-m. rectly expressed the policy of the Government, that they will do nothing?


John Douglas Hazen: Will my hon. friend translate what was said?


Frank Oliver: The purport of it was that he approved of the policy of the Government in doing nothing.


John Howard Sinclair: Nothing has been said in answer to the remarks of hon. gentle-ment on this side as to the question of the repeal of the Naval Service Act. Two years ago a question was asked by the hon. member for Dorchester and after a long period of deliberation the Government replied that they would repeal the Naval Service Act. There is a Bill now before the House standing for its second reading to that effect and if the Government intends to adopt that Bill, introduced by one of its prominent supporters, it seems to me that we should not pass this item until we know whether fhey have made up their minds in regard to that matter. If this Bill should pass I
January 30,1914
think it will involve a reorganization of the whole question and will dispense with the employment of some of the officers for whom we are providing by this vote. The minister has not given any light on that question. I think we ought to have an answer as to whether the Government really intend to support the measure before the House or repeal the Naval Service Act.


John Douglas Hazen: I do not think my hon.
friend or any other hon. member would seriously suggest that the Government should say what its policy is going to be on a certain Bill introduced by a private member before the Bill comes up for consideration. I cannot believe that my hon. friend is serious in asking that question. When the Bill comes down for consideration at the proper time, the policy of the Government will undoubtedly be stated by the First Minister or some other minister on behalf of the Government. For me to state now what the policy of the Government would be would be not only improper but not a course that any hon. member would approve.


John Howard Sinclair: I would not have ventured to ask this question had it not been that the policy of the Government was announced two years ago. I presume the Government are prepared to carry out the promise they then made to repeal the Naval Service Act. If the Government have changed their policy in that matter, of course I am out of order in asking the question. Is the policy of the Government the same to-day as when a reply was given in Parliament a couple of years ago that the Naval Service Act was to be repealed?


George Ewan McCraney: The Government has stated that the men who are engaged on the Niobe and Rainbow have been engaged in the old country for a term of years. How much longer are they to remain in the employ of Canada?


John Douglas Hazen: The Deputy Minister tells me that these men were engaged for different periods, the longest period would be for five years beginning three years ago.


George Ewan McCraney: If I understand the situation it is that the Niobe and the Rainbow are tied up at wharfs.


John Douglas Hazen: They are in the harbours.


George Ewan McCraney: They are not cruising they are not being used for the purpose for which they were originally intended. The reason that they are kept in commission at all is to provide a place of employment for
some men, the balance of whose term of employment is two or three years and whose present occupation is looking after the delicate instruments which are used on these vessels. I would suggest to the minister that these men who are so employed are at the very best time in their lives, the time when they ought not only to be in the best kind of employment but when they should be doing the best service for themselves or for Canada or for Britain or for somebody and that they must be in a condition, if not of idleness at least of useless employment in keeping instruments in repair. The instruments must be kept in repair, but there is surely no reason why those instruments should be kept on the Niobe or Rainbow if the only purpose is to keep them in repair. If those ships are not to be used for their original purpose, they had better be dismantled and the men paid off.


John Douglas Hazen: My hon. friend, I think, must to some extent have misunderstood me. I did not say that we were keeping instruments on board the boat, but the machinery which could not be removed. The men, the Deputy Minister informs me, are kept busy. The great bulk of them are Englishmen who have been in the English navy, and the Deputy Minister says they are kept employed. We are responsible for carrying out our contract with the men and if we dismiss them at an earlier date than the contract calls for some arrangement would have to be made to compensate the men.


Frank Oliver: Can the minister tell me what was the cost of the Niobe and the Rainbow?


John Douglas Hazen: I have not the figures here and the Deputy Minister tells me he does not remember, but perhaps some of my hon. friends who were members of the Gov-ment at the time those ships were bought, have some recollection.


Frank Oliver: The point I wanted to
establish is this: a very large amount of the country's money is tied up in these vessels, their maintenance is costing a large amount of money, and the purpose for which the money was voted is not being carried out. And so far as we can learn from the minister, it is not the intention of the Government to carry it out. The country, meanwhile, is burdened with that expense, capital and current, without any reason whatever. We have asked, we have almost badgered, the minister for an answer as to

what the Government intends to do in the matter. I think we have keen strictly within pur rights in asking these questions, and I am very much disappointed that the Government is not able or willing to give us a *dear and straightforward answer. The matter is one that I think is seriously contentious, and I think that what has passed across the floor to-night is sufficient evidence on that point. I think my hon. friend will remember that when the leader of the Government and the leader of the Opposition spoke last night as to the business that was to be taken up to-day, it was understood that any of the Estimates that were contentious would not be proceeded with. This certainly has developed into a contentious matter and in view of the understanding between the leaders I would respectfully ask my hon. friend to allow it to stand over.


John Douglas Hazen: I hope my hon. friend did not gather from any remark of mine that I wished to imply that the Opposition were asking questions that were improper from the standpoint of an opposition. I fully realize what the rights and duties of an opposition are, and make no complaint whatever about any inquiries made of me when my Estimates are before the House. I have endeavoured to give such answers as I thought would be satisfactory to my hon. friends opposite. Having been in opposition myself in a legislature for nine years, 1 know it is sometimes difficult to satisfy an opposition with information, and very frequently if the Government gives information it is not considered satisfactory by those opposed to the Government. My hon. friend surely does not expect me to state what the naval policy is. That is a matter for the Prime Minister when the proper time comes. I have given my hon. friend all the information I can with regard to these vessels and the number of men employed on them, and with regard to the work these men are doing, I have also told my hon. friend that so far as the question of disposing of these vessels is concerned, no conclusion has been reached. The matter is being carefully considered by the department and will be considered by the Government when the department is in a position, after consideration with its officials, to make a report to the Government on that matter. I do not know what further information I can give my hon. friend. I would have no hesitation in allowing the item to stand, but I think my hon. friend should have asked that it stand over when the question first came up. I would have

agreed to that without a moment's hesitation. But here we have been discussing for an hour, almost, every phase of the question and.I have answered all questions as far as I am able except the one asking the cost of the Niobe and Rainbow. Under these circumstances I ask my hon. friend if he thinks the item ought to stand? If my hon. friend and his friends want the item to stand and say so, I am not going to insist upon its being passed to-night. I would point out, however, that when the main Naval Estimates come before the House at a later day, there will be the fullest possible opportunity for discussion of this question, and I will be delighted to give hon. gentlemen all the information possible if they desire to go on with the matter at that time.
'Mr. OLIVER: I am sure my hon. friend is courteous and considerate in every respect, and I do not wish him to think I have any fault to find with his attitude on this matter. But my hon. friend the member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean) before he went away this evening, asked that the item should stand and in view of the fact that it has developed into a contentious item and in view of the arrangements which I understand existed bet\een the two leaders last night, I would ask that the item stand for the present, and in making that request I do not want the minister to understand that I am making any criticism whatever of him or of the way in which he has dealt with this matter.


John Douglas Hazen: I think I understand the attitude of the hon. member for Edmontm, and if it is his desire that the item should stand, I will at once agree; but if we are to go over all this again on some future occasion, I think it is unfortunate that the matter did not develop as contentious before dinner. However, if that is the hon. gentleman's request I will bow to it.
Civil Government-Department of Militia and Defence-Salaries and contingencies, $186,900.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Will the hon. minister explain?
Hon. SAM. HUGHES (Minister of Militia and Defence): There- are no increases except the statutory increases.


Edmond Proulx: What is included in that item of sundries, $ 11,000 ? Is that another trip to England?


James Joseph Hughes: No trip to England.
When the main Estimates come up, I shall

be delighted to give my hon. friend the particulars about that trip to England, and I am sure he will regret that he was not along and that he had not become a soldier earlier in life.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: What are the sundries for?


James Joseph Hughes: They are for general odds and ends and for travelling expenses.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: What are some of the items?


James Joseph Hughes: The travelling expenses of civil officers of the Department come out of that.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: I do not want to be persistent at all, but it seems to me the Minister's explanations are rather vague-odds and ends.


James Joseph Hughes: These are travelling expenses.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Is that $11,000 made up of small items?


James Joseph Hughes: All small items-the expenses of officers travelling to Toronto, Quebec or anywhere. These are civil officers, not the military department.


Charles Murphy: It was explained by the hon. Minister's colleague, the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen), in connection with an item for sundries under the head of contingencies, that the item of travelling expenses which used to be voted in connection with a special appropriation had been transferred to this item of sundries under the head of contingencies, and that his Estimates were thereby increased by that amount. The estimates of the hon. Minister of Militia, under the head of sundries, apparently remain the same as they were last year. The Minister of Militia is not following in his department the custom as explained by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.


James Joseph Hughes: I presume my hon. friend the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries is following our custom.


Charles Murphy: No.


James Joseph Hughes: We have always had our expenses for travel under this head. I do not know what the Naval Service is doing at all. I am not running that show; I am running this show.


David Bradley Neely: I would like to ask the minister if this item of sundries would cover, for instance, the travelling and other incidental expenses of entertaining the 22
visiting officers, say, from England, whom the Minister of Militia might see fit to entertain as properly he should. Would it also cover the expense of a visiting officer if the minister takes him to a political picnic, for instance, wearing a badge ' Britain and the Empire,' where a visiting British officer would hardly be expected to feel particularly at home in a country where all classes of the people are supposed to be loyal to the empire to which we are all so proud to belong. I would like to know if that is the case.


James Joseph Hughes: If the Minister of Militia
entertains an officer, he entertains him himself. He does not charge him up to the public expense. If the Minister of Militia takes a gentleman to any party-Queenston Heights I presume my hon. friend refers to-he does so at his own expense and assumes the full responsibility for it. If he wears a badge, the Minister of Militia and Defence is responsible for the wearing of his badge. He asks no person what badge he shall wear on such an occasion.


David Bradley Neely: I am not worried about
what badge the minister wears; we all know the badge he wears. That is not a matter of any particular concern. I am asking whether this $11,000 for sundries would cover such an occasion as where the minister takes a foreign officer, or an officer from the old country, or any other country, to a picnic. Does the minister mean to tell us that the minister pays the expenses of the visitors, because I have no fault to find with that proposition; but, in connection with the particular incident that he referred to, did the minister actually pay out of his own pocket the expenses of this visiting officer, and does he pay the expenses of visiting officers while travelling through the country?


James Joseph Hughes: The hon. gentleman referred to an incident that occurred at a picnic at Queenston Heights. I take the responsibility of everything that occurred on that occasion. When General Ian Hamilton travelled through this country as Inspector General, all his expenses were paid out of the general vote, but that has nothing to do with Civil Government, nor had the incident to which my hon. friend refers anything to do with this item.


David Bradley Neely: If this incident does not
come under this item, that is all I want from the minister. But the minister will understand, of course, that when we do



come to the point we hope the matter may be properly discussed.


James Joseph Hughes: I shall be glad to give my hon. friend the opportunity.


David Bradley Neely: We would like to have a little information about that particular trip to Queenston Heights.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: The Minister's explanation is that this $11,000 would simply cover the travelling expenses of officers of the department9


James Joseph Hughes: The civil officers.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: The civil officers; that is the only explanation of the expenditure of this $11,000?


James Joseph Hughes: That is the great bulk of it.


Frederick Forsyth Pardee: Would $9,000 be a fair estimate of the travelling expenses?


James Joseph Hughes: I think it would be more than that.


Frank Oliver: I am sorry that my military experience is not very large, but it would appear to me as a rank outsider that the amount of $11,000 for the travelling expenses of the civil staff of the department is too large. I do not appreciate how the civil end of the military department has to do so much travelling. I understand that the travelling was generally done by the military officers, not by the civil officers.


James Joseph Hughes: If that question had been asked by some hon. gentleman on the other side who had never sat within the sacred precincts of the Privy Council, we would not have wondered at it; but the item is the same item that the hon. gentleman passed himself whilst he was a minister sitting with his colleagues around the Council Board. I do not think that it has been increased at all from the time that he passed it himself. It is the same item that has been passed for years.


Frank Oliver: The minister compliments the Government too much.
. Mr. SINCLAIR: In looking at the Auditor General's Report I find that the contingencies under the Civil Government item for the Department of Militia and Defence last year amounted to $22,028. I do not know whether this represents the same expenditure or not, but the amount is more than twice as much as the item we are discussing.
fMr. Neely. 1


James Joseph Hughes: If the hon. gentleman looks at the Estimates he will see that the vote includes contingencies, clerical assistance, printing and stationery and sundries.


John Howard Sinclair: Is it the same expenditure that we are discussing now?


James Joseph Hughes: We are discussing one of the three items which go to make up the whole of the contingencies. If the hon. gentleman will turn to page 13 of his Estimates he will see that the vote includes these three items.


John Howard Sinclair: .Does the Minister of Militia intend shortly to make provision for the payment of the Fenian bounty claims? I, and others, have had numerous inquiries with regard to this matter. A great many have put in their claims, and the statement having gone abroad that the Act expired on the 31st December, the claimants are uneasy as to whether or not their claims will be paid.


James Joseph Hughes: It is the intention of the Government to taken any legislation that may be necessary to continue the right of any claimant who may have presented his claim. There are a number of questions on the Order Paper with reference to this matter, and they will be answered in due course. I may say now that every claim that has been allowed will be paid. The Militia Department has nothing to do with paying the claims; it merely issues a warrant and the Finance Department pays.
Civil Government-Department of the Interior-Salaries and contingencies, $1,258,255.


Hon. W. J. ROCHE (Minister of the Interior) :: The statutory increases amount to $33,357, and the other increases, caused by increased clerkships, to $83,700, being a total of $116,957. There have been decreases through the filling of vacancies occasioned by promotion, resignations, &c. In all cases, the new clerks came in at the minimum of the salary of the division to which they were promoted.


William F. Carroll: There seems to be a
large increase in the contingencies for travelling expenses?


William James Roche: That is occasioned by the fact that the travelling expenses, which formerly -were paid out of the votes for the different services, will in future be paid out ot this vote.


Frank Oliver: Does the total represent any actual increase over last year ?


William James Roche: These Estimates are based on the Estimates of last year.


Frank Oliver: Apparently, there is an increase of about 88 officials.


William James Roche: The hon. gentleman, who was formerly minister of this department, will appreciate the explanation of that. The department has over 800 employees, and during the course of the year there have been employed from 70 to 145 temporary clerks at different periods. Under the present practice, temporary employees are only allowed to remain in the department for six months. Formerly, when they were in a department for six months and did not pass the examination they were transferred to another department in which they remained for the next six months, and so on. That practice has been abolished, and now, unless they have passed their examination within the first six months they are compelled to leave the service, and usually just at the time when they are becoming proficient in their work. I consulted the heads of the different branches, and in order to avoid the employment of so many temporary employees, it was considered it would be very much better in the interests of the service and in the interests of economy, that we should have a larger number of permanent employees. Of course we must continue to take some vote for temporary clerical assistance, but it will be materially reduced.


Frank Oliver: This is really only an apparent increase ?


William James Roche: That is all.


Frank Oliver: I took objection a short time ago to the passing of the Estimates for the Naval Department, but in order to facilitate business it may be well to withdraw the objection and let the item go through.


John Douglas Hazen: Thank you.


Frank Oliver: On the understanding that discussion may be had when the other naval Estimates come up.


John Douglas Hazen: Yes.
Civil Government-Department of Labour- Salaries, $52,412.50 ; contingencies, $15,000.


Hon. T. W. CROTHERS (Minister of Labour):: Hon. members will notice that there is an inc ease of one in the staff of the department, and of $700 in the amount devoted to salaries. The new appointee is a messenger. This appointment and the statutory increases explain the increase of $700. The contingencies are the same as last year.
m


William F. Carroll: I have received c.mmu-nications to the effect that a statement appears in our papers that a new Bill is being introduced to extend the Industrial Disputes Act so as to co er all classes of employment. I have a question on the Order Paper for Monday on that subject, but I .should be glad if the minister could give me the information now.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: There will be an itjui later on for the administration of the Industrial Disputes Act, and perhaps my hon. friend will wait until that time. It would be more in order to discuss such a matter then.


William F. Carroll: Will that be reached
this evening?


Thomas Wilson Crothers: I suppose not; we are only taking up Civil Government now.
Civil Government-Department of Inland Revenue-Salaries, $182,087-50 ; contingencies, $10,000.


Charles Murphy: Will the Minister of Inland Revenue be good enough to explain the increase of size in the membership of the staff?


Hon. W. B. NANTEL (Minister of Inland Revenue):: We have an Assistant Deputy Minister, Mr. J. U. Vincent at a sa'ary of $3,350. Then, in the branch of Dr. McGill, Chief Analyst, we have two analysts employed, Mr. Dawson and Mr. Papineau Couture.


Charles Murphy: What is the increase in the Weights and Measures branch?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: We have a chief inspector, Mr. Way, who last year was assistant chief and has now been promoted. His salary is $2,800.


Charles Murphy: Who is the present
deputy minister?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. W. Himsworth.


Charles Murphy: Is he retiring?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He will retire soon, but is still in office.


Charles Murphy: When does he retire?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Probably next spring.


Charles Murphy: About what date?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: About April, I suppose.


Charles Murphy: Who is to succeed him?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: That is not decided yet, but there is the assistant deputy minister, Mr. Vincent, who has been appointed cum futura successione.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Under 'Sundries' there
is an increase of $1,000. What is that for?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: 'Sundries' covers unforseen expenditure, such as subscriptions to newspapers, telephones, telegrams, etc.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: Subscriptions to newspapers?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Yes, there are many in
my department.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I know that people subscribe to newspapers that they do not want, but I did not know that the departments did.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: They always have. It
was so when I took office.


Mr. ROBB:: Would the minister mind
telling us if he intends to introduce legislation to govern the manufacture, sale and use of explosives?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: That is not in my department.


James Alexander Robb: It was in the minister's
department last session.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: It belongs to the Mines
Department.


William F. Carroll: May I ask if the revenue cutters that were referred to this afternoon are in this department?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: No, they are in the Customs Department.


William F. Carroll: I wanted to find that
out because I have had some difficulty in locating them.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I have nothing to do
with them.


John Howard Sinclair: How many inspectors
of weights and measures are there in the province of Nova Scotia, and what are their names and salaries?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: That is in the outside
service, and I have not the notes on that subject with me. But I am informed that there are three inspectors in Nova Scotia.


John Howard Sinclair: I think the question
will be in order now:	Some of the retail
merchants are complaining of inspection of their weights and measures being made oftener than is necessary, and the inspectors compel them to pay a fee for this inspection. There is a certain amount of trouble and friction about it, and I desired to ask the minister whether he proposes to change the law so as to relieve the retail men of the charge now made

upon them for inspection of weights and measures.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: I have received no complaint as to that.
'Mr. J. J. HUGHES: These inspectors of weights and measures are paid by the Government, and they also exact a pretty large fee.


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The fee is not large; it has not been changed since I took office.


James Joseph Hughes: Where do the fees go?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: The fees go to the department.


William F. Carroll: I desire to take thi# opportunity of thanking the minister for giving heed to a request which I made of him last year. I made many requests of the Government for various small things, but the Minister of Inland Revenue was the only member of the Government who heeded my requests. Last year I brought to his attention the matter of an employee of his department at Halifax, Mr. Patrick Tompkins, who had been in the employ of the department for twenty years, and was getting a very small salary. I wish to thank the Minister of Inland Revenue very kindly for having granted this gentleman the increase of pay which he so well deserved.


David Bradley Neely: I understand that the
Deputy Minister of the Department is leaving some time in the spring, and that another gentleman, Mr. Vincent, is taking his place. How long has this gentleman been in the service of the department, and what qualifications has he for the office?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: Mr. Vincent has been in the department since last October. He has been recognized by Mr. fehortt, of the Civil Service Commission, as being capable of filling the position; I consider he is well qualified for the office. Probably he will be appointed deputy minister.


David Bradley Neely: What was his occupation before he entered the service of the department?


Wilfrid Bruno Nantel: He was a lawyer in
Ottawa. A lawyer should make a good deputy minister for the Department of Inland Revenue.
Civil Government-Department of Agriculture-Salaries and contingencies, $509,637.50.


Charles Murphy: Will the hon. minister explain the increase in the staff and the increase in the salaries?


Hon. MARTIN BURRELL (Minister of Agriculture):: There will be two vacancies created by promotion of two officers into the first division. The four patent examiners in that division, who have practically reached the maximum of $2,100 in the second division, are going up from the $2,100 to $2,800 class. Two men have been brought in from the outside service and appointed field husbandman and seed analyst respectively. In the next division the four vacancies are created by promotions, and four of the patent office who have been in the $1,200 to $1,600 class will be promoted to the $1,600 and $2,100 class. Most of these patent examiners come in on probation at $1,200, on the stipulation that they shall go up to $1,600 after the first year, if their services are satisfactory. In addition to that we are providing for an assistant. Dominion botanist., a horticulturist, another clerk in the copyrights branch, an assistant editor in the publications branch, and an assistant Dominion entomologist. In .subdivision B we have a number of vacancies and are providing for the appointment of an assistant to the Dominion botanist, to the Dominion field husbandman, the transfer to the inside service of an outside officer, an additional clerk in the minister's office, an assistant to the Dominion chemist, a filing clerk in the publications office. In the third division some clerks who have reached their maximum in the $500 to $800 class are going up to the $900 to $1,200 class. The changes are simply the result of the natural expansion of departmental work, with the addition of the officers I have jjst mentioned.


Charles Murphy: Are the two positions at $5,000 new?


Martin Burrell: No. These are Dr.
Montizambert and Dr. Torrance.


James Joseph Hughes: Why are the travelling expenses so large this year?


Martin Burrell: Hitherto we have paid all our expenses from the votes apportioned to the different branches. It has been suggested that we should do away with that practice, and put these expenses into a general travelling expense fund for all branches. Many of the officers of the inside service of the department are travelling a good deal of the time, particularly those in
the experimental farm, dairy and cold stor age and live stock branches. This change was suggested by the Auditor General. Last year the amount was, I think, between $45,0f)0 and $50,000.


Charles Murphy: Have all the positions in subdivision ' A ' of the first division been filled?


Martin Burrell: No. This will provide for two promotions and a possible new appointment.


Charles Murphy: Are the vacancies in this subdivision to be filled by promotion?


Martin Burrell: Yes, some of them. I have spoken of the four in the patent examiners* branch. Four patent senior examiners who have reached their maximum of $2,100 will go into the $2,100 to $2,800 class.


Frank Oliver: What is the explanation
of the doubling of the vote for clerical and other assistance?


Martin Burrell: Last year we had a great deal of trouble because we 10 p. m. could not get permanent clerks from the Civil Service Commission to fill a lot of appointments, and we had to put on a number of temporary employees. We ran much behind our vote last year for temporary employees. If we had had permanent appointments for this, much of the vote would have lapsed. We had to increase our temporary vote, and we are providing enough so that if we do not get the permanent clerks we shall have enough to pay for temporary assistance.
Civil Government-Post Office Deaprtment- Salaries and contingencies, $867,810.


Hon. L. P. PELLETIER (Postmaster General):: The number of officers is the
same, and the increase is due to statutory increases.
' Mr. MURPHY: What is the increase in contingencies?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: To a large extent it
is due to the same reason given by other departments.


William F. Carroll: I notice an item for provisional allowances in the Northwest. What is the explanation of that?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: That is a special allowance that we give in Western Canada, which existed before my time. The explanation is, and I do not hesitate to say this, that the law does not permit us to pay sufficient
.342

salaries to get good men in the West We get men and they leave the service because we are. not allowed by law to pay them sufficient salary. The late Government provided for this to a certain extent by making what they called a living allowance tc the employees in the West, that is from Winnipeg to the Coast. In a general way the allowance is $180, but it varies according to salary.


Frank Oliver: What class of employees get the benefit of that allowance5


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: For officers receiving $1,600 and under, $15 a month, that is $180 a year. In the case of salaries over $1,600 and under $1,780, the allowance is the amount required to make up a total of $1,780, this being the amount that would be received by a clerk whose salary is $1,600.


Frank Oliver: The dead letter effice employees of the West are part of the Inside Service?


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Yes.
Civil Government-Public Works-Salaries and contingencies, $62S,547.50.


Hon. ROBERT ROGERS (Minister of Public Works):: I might say, in a general way, that there are no increases except the ordinary statutory increases, as far as I know, and a few7 promotions. The total amount asked this year is $543,000 as against $527,000, or a difference of $16,000 for the general increase incident to the expansion of the department made up entirely of the natural increase and statutory increases.


Frank Oliver: In the second division,
subdivision 'A,' I see two more have been appointed, and in the second division, subdivision ' B ' five more.


Robert Rogers: These are the increases
incident to the development and extra work of the department.


Charles Murphy: What is the meaning of that item in the second division subdivision ' A ' where it says ' remainder of salary in Estimates of Railways and Canals'?


Robert Rogers: That refers to D. A. McLaughlin, the photographer. He gets part of his salary from my department, and the rest from the Railway Department.


James Joseph Hughes: Travelling expenses have increased by $46,000.


Robert Rogers: The same answer applies to that as was given by my hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture. Heretofore, if we

sent out an inspector, an engineer or purchasing agent his expenses were chargeable to the particular work on which he was engaged, but for some reason or other on the recommendation of the Auditor General or Treasury Board, that has been changed and all travelling expenses are charged to a contingency account. That accounts for the increase over last year.


William F. Carroll: How would the various items compare with this year?


Robert Rogers: About the same I think.


Frank Oliver: There is a considerable
increase in the printing and stationery. Is there any explanation of that?


Robert Rogers: Printing and stationery
last year was $12,500 and this year $17,000, The increase is due to books, publications and so on.


Frank Oliver: Has it anything to do
with newspaper advertising?


Robert Rogers: I do not think so.


John Howard Sinclair: Where is the printing
being done?


Robert Rogers: In the Printing Bureau.


William F. Carroll: Have many new clerks been appointed by the department during the last year?


Robert Rogers: Very few; about four or five additional ones in the different offices.
Civil Government-Department of Justice-Salaries, including- legal officer at $4,500, and assistant legal adviser at $4,000, $135,773.75.


Edmond Proulx: Has any new officer been appointed?


Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice) :: No. One officer has been dropped. Moreover, the officer tvho last year combined the duties of secretary and assistant deputy minister was paid $5,000. This year we are paying the gentleman who replaces him only $4,000. We have diminished, not increased, the number of officers.


William F. Carroll: I understand some new appointments have been made in the legal department. Was Mr. Bill of Truro not appointed?


Charles Joseph Doherty: Yes. Mr. Gisborne was appointed parliamentary counsel, and we appointed the gentleman next in order to the position of secretary. Mr. Gisborne's transference naturally created a vacancy that we had to fill by promotion, and Mr. Bill was appointed to the position rendered vacant by such promotions.


William F. Carroll: At what salary?



Charles Joseph Doherty: 53,300.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of Mr. Rogers, the House adjourned at 10.15 p.m.
Monday, February 2, 1914.