1911-05-10

PRIVILEGE-MR. LANCTOT, M.P.,

Mr. LANCTOT.: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege. I read in the Ottawa ' Free Press,' dated the 8th inst-., the following :
It is stated, however, that there will be a revival of the charges against iMr. Adelard Lanctot, M.P. for Richelieu, who was exonerated the week before last. This time the charge is understood to be one of having obtained lumber and shingles from the government.
The same statements and insinuations have, in substance, been published in various newspapers in the province of Quebec, more especially in ' Le Devoir ' and ' La Patrie.' With reference to the statements, or insinuations, contained in what I have just read, I wish to say that there is not one word of truth in them, or foundation in fact for them. There has never been, to my knowledge, or so far as I am aware, one five cent's worth of government shingles, timber, or lumber used in my building, or otherwise for my benefit.



BANK ACT AMENDMENTS.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. LEWIS moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 297) respecting bank officials, employees and creditors. He said: It is obvious that at this date of the session it will be impossible for any one to put this Bill through the House without the consent of the government. But the purpose I desire to serve in introducing this Bill is to lay before the government and the people, in concrete form, certain remedies for certain grievances which have been found to exist in the Bank and other Acts, to be considered during the adjournment, and the feeling of the people respecting same ascertained. They are not contained in the old Bank Aet of 1890, or in the ' proposed new Bank Act. I have con-fered with the counsel who had charge of the criminal prosecutions in the province of Ontario in reference to the Sovereign Sir WILFRID LAURIER
Bank and the Farmers' Bank, and it is at their request that some of these clauses have been put in this Bill. The first clause is in reference to punishment for any person forcing or coercing a bank manager to give a fraudulent preference. There were two men charged with having aided and conspired, in the Farmers' Bank case, with the manager and other officials, to give a fraudulent preference, who were released because the Act at present does not render the creditors of any bank or any other person liable in such cases. The first clause reads:
Every one is guilty of an offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years who, being the president, vice-president, director, manager, cashier or other officer of a bank, wilfully gives or concurs in giving any creditor of such bank any fraudulent, undue or unfair preference over other ereditors, or who, being a creditor, forces or assists in forcing, coerces or i uduces any president, vicepresident, director, manager, cashier or other officer of a bank to give any creditor of such bank any fraudulent, undue or unfair preference over other creditors.
You will see, Mr. Speaker, that it goes further than the new Bank Act, It is a concrete statement. I think that a provision like the following has been asked for by the people of this country. There was a strong feeling in the province of Ontario, and particularly in the city of Toronto, when the president of one of the banks who was charged with an offence like this, was not found guilty simply because it was not proved that he knew the document he signed was untrue.
2.	The president, vice-president, director, manager or other officer of a bank who makes or assists in making any false or deceptive statement in any account, return, report or other document respecting the affairs of such bank, is guilty of an offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years, whether or not he knew such account, return, report or other document to be false or deceptive.
3.	Any official or director of a bank is guilty of an offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years who, by himself or through any other person, accepts a loan, discount or other accommodation from the bank of which he is an official or director.
I think it should be provided, as it is in the Independence of Parliament Act, in reference to accounts with the government, that any one who is connected with a bank, or who is an official in a fiduciary capacity, should have no power to accept accommodation from that bank. If he is a private person and desires accommodation, he has a right to go to other banks, so should a bank official. But his hands must be clean.
4.	Any director, manager or other official of a bank or other corporation is guilty of an offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years who, by himself or
MAY It), 1911
through others, assists in the creation of what is commonly known as watered stock for the bank or other corporation of which he is such director, manager or other official.
I have conferred with the law officers of the Crown in drawing that clause, and we discussed the question as to whether we should put in a definition of watered stock. I hope that the government will take charge of this Bill, or draft legislation in reference to it, and will then make the necessary definition as to what is watered stock, although we all know what it is.
5.	Any director, manager or other official of a bank who makes a loan on the security either wholly or partly of a mine or mining company, or on the stock of such mine or mining company, which has not been listed, is guilty of an offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.
2.	In case of a loan on security on listed stock, the value of such stock shall be taken at the listed value up to par.
I think that the clauses 1 have read are in the interest of the commercial integrity of the business people, and of the plain people of Canada, as well as the hanks, and will he welcomed by bank managers. I have added another clause in this embryo Bill, and that is in reference to employees of a bank. Formerly, as was well known to the public, the young bank clerks were supposed to have what is known as an easy situation. They went to work at half past nine, and left their office by half past three or four o'clock. But to-day things have changed absolutely. The banks are making money much faster than formerly, and as, like other corporations, they have no soul, they have contracted miserly habits, and are reaching out after the dollar. To-day there are hundreds and hundreds of young men being worked to death in the banks at $300 or $400 a year, and are doing the work of men who usually draw $1,000 or $1,200; and they are being injured materially, mentally and physically. Almost every day we see in the daily papers that Mr. So-and so, the manager of the bank in the Northwest, or somewhere else-I have a number of such items in my possession-has committed suicide, but his accounts were all correct, &c. What has been the cause of it? What has been the cause of that? Why, overwork and worry, and long hours in close confinement. So much has this been the case that the banks have been unable to procure enough young men in this country, and they have had to go to the old country for them. Not long ago one of the chief banks brought fifty young men from the old country to take the places of our own young men, and 1 am credibly informed by a bank manager that these young men brought out from the old
country receive $600 a year, while our young men get only $200 to $300 to start with, and the young men from the old country are not as capable as our own young men. I do not say anything against these young men, but, not having been brought up in this country, and not being familiar with the ways of the country, they cannot be as capable as our own young men at first. I have drawn a clause to this effect, and I think it will be welcomed by young bank managers and old bank managers too, except probably those in the head offices of the banks:
6.	Any manager, agent or directing officer of any bank, or of any agency, of a bank, who causes any clerk or employee under him to work within any office or building longer than eight hours in any one day, such eight hours being divided by one hour, between the hours of noon and two in the afternoon, during which such clerk or employee may go outside of such office or building, is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine of not less than $200.	„ ...
2.	The provisions of subsection 1 ot tnis section do not apply to tellers, nor on the day upon which the monthly return is made up.
While it may be hard enough for the labouring man to work eight or ten hours a day in the free open air, it is very much harder for a clerk in an office where a large number of these young men are assembled together. Go into any office in Toronto or Montreal, and you will find probably 200 young men from 16 to 20 years of age, white faced and anaemic, toiling over their ledgers. I was in the city of Toronto the other day j,nd,_ passing the banks and similar institutions, I saw these young men, although it was not at the end of the month, grinding away at half past eight in the morning and the same hour in the evening. They have no intermission. Unlike the civil servants with their hour and a half in the middle of the day, these bank clerks are given fifteen minutes to go downstairs and get a cup of tea and a bite to eat. I am merely stating the facts, and I would ask the Minister of Finance, who has the Bank Bill in charge, why such things should be.^ The banks are granted their powers by this parliament, they are making money, and they should no-t interfere with the health and physical well-being of any persons in their employ.
Mr. SPROULE.: My hon. friend from West Huron (Mr. Lewis) has been very industrious in introducing Bills into this House to remedy grievances, and no doubt many of them, if they became law, would be valuable. He has made several very good suggestions in these Bills with the object of providing remedies for certain evils which exist, but he has missed a

very important one, and I have been expecting a Bill from him on that subject for some time. I have noticed that for a great many years, under the system as carried out in this country, many bankers put an embargo upon marriage. I think this ought to be made a punishable offence, and that provision should be made for its punishment by an amendment to the Criminal Code. If a deserving young man in a bank desires to get married although he may be in a position, according to his own judgment, to settle down in life, he is not allowed to get maxried unless he has $1,000. This is a very improper, a very unwise and an almost criminal interference with the personal right and personal liberty of our young men, and it is a great injustice to many deserving young ladies as well. I think that when we amend the Bank Act we ought to take notice of this condition and provide a very severe penalty for any bank manager who interferes with the rights of young men in this way. I was surprised that my hon. friend from West Huron did not include this point in his Bill, because it is an important matter. The only objection I would have to including it in his Bill is that, according to his own statement, he never expects that these Bills will become law. It seems that he merely puts them out as kite fliers, and then buries them in potter's field or else they are still-born and we never hear any more of them. I would like to see an amendment to the Criminal Code in order to provide a remedy for this condition. In my judgment, and I have thought carefully oveT it many times, it is a great injustice, and it is something that should not be allowed to exist in any country. It is an interference with the personal liberty and personal rights of young men.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. SPROULE:: 1.	How many officers, non-commissioned officers, men and horses were called out to perform their annual drill or training in the years 1891, 1895, 1896, 1897, 1898, 1899, 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1909 and 1910, and how many are intended to be called out for drill for the year 1911 with the number from each battalion, and where drill will be performed?
2.	What length of time was spent in drill and rifle practice in each of these years, were all the officers and non-commissioned officers properly qualified to handle, instruct or drill the militia forces each year, and who were charged with these duties?


Mr. SPROULE.: 3.	Where, how rapidly and in what numbers could the force be mobilized and properly supplied with arms, uniforms and all necessary equipment for active service?
4.	How many additional men could be equipped and put in the field for active service, say in three months?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.: I spoke to my hon. friend (Mr. ' Sproule) about 'this question the other day, and if he would drop the third and fourth questions, I would be very glad to give him the information privately, because it is not information of the kind to be published. I am getting the answer to the first two questions.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I would be glad to have the answers and allow numbers 3 and 4 to drop, as the minister suggests, if that would serve his purpose.


NAVAL SERVICE-TENDBRS FOR CRUISERS.
Mr. MONK:: 1.	What parties have tendered for the construction of cruisers to be built for the government?
2.	When did the time for receiving such tenders expire?
3.	What are the amounts of the said tenders respectively?
4.	Do the tenders cover the construction of cruisers only, or of cruisers and destroyers as well?
5.	What is the time fixed for the said construction ?
6.	Has any action been taken on said tenders? If so, what action?


Mr. BRODEUR:: 1 and 3. It is not considered advisable to publish the names of the tenderers, or the amounts of the tenders at present.
2.	May 1.
4.	Both.
5.	Six years.
6.	Tenders are being examined.


LEASE OF WATER-POWER AT CARILLON.
Mr. MONK:: 1.	Who is the lessee of the water-power on the Ottawa river at Carillon?
2.	What is the date of the lease and its duration?
3.	What is the rental payable by the lessee?
4.	Has the lessee paid the rent regularly? If not, what arrears were due on the 31st March, 1911?
5.	Has the lessee conformed to his lease as to expenditure for development?
6.	What is the date of the order in council authorizing the said lease?
7.	Has the original lease been transferred? If so, to whom and on what date?


Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	The National Hydro-Electric Company, Limited.
2.	March 31, 1911, for 21 years renewable for two terms of 21 years each.

3.	$100 for land; $2 per horse-power annually.
4.	Yes; no arrears due.
5.	Nothing has been done yet under this lease, as the lessee has 12 months from the date of the lease in which to commence operations.
6.	March 14, 1911.
7.	No.


FRUIT INSPECTION IN PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND.
Mr. FRASER:: 1.	What is the date of the appointment of T. A. Peters as fruit inspector for Prince Edward Island?
2.	Who recommended this appointment?
3.	Has the government any evidence of the qualification of this man for the position? If so, what are his qualifications?
4.	Has the government or any department thereof received any complaint or protest concerning this appointment? or the work done by this officer?
5.	Has the government received a protest from the Prince Edward Island Fruit Growers' Association against this inspector's appointment, or complaint as to his qualifications ?


Mr. FISHER:: 1.	Mr. T. A. Peters was appointed fruit inspector for Prince Edward Island, on September 1, 1910. He was previously employed by the Department of Agriculture in other capacities.
2.	It was made on recommendations considered sufficient by the minister.
3.	Yes. Mr. Peters has been known to the Minister of Agriculture and officers of department for many years. He is a capable, trustworthy and energetic officer. He has done excellent work in Prince Edward Island, and is exceedingly well qualified for the position of Dominion fruit inspector. He has had many years experience in connection with the fruit growing industry.
4 and 5. No.


EXPORT OF FARM PRODUCTS THROUGH WINDSOR.
Mr. WILCOX:: 1.	What quantities of hay, cereals, vegetables, poultry, eggs, fruit, general farm, garden and dairy produce, respectively, were exported through the port of Windsor to the United States of America during the fiscal years ending March 31, 1896-7-8, 1908-9-10?
2.	What was the value of such exports, respectively, and what duty was paid thereon?


Mr. PATERSON.: The quantity and value of the undermentioned articles exported from the port of Windsor, Ont. to the United States, during the undermentioned fiscal years, was as follows:
			Quan-	
Year.	tity.	Value.Butter	1896	190	$ 311897	100	141898	207	271908	1,309	3031909	1,953	4331910	7,387	1,240Cheese	1896	10,489	1,0921897	32	41898	175	251908	4,360	7351909	4.926	7461910	6,716	1.2461896	8,9341897	8,6281898	4,5921908	13,5281909	11,5821910	19,262Eggs	1896	14,690	1,2271897	517	571898	'63	271908	3,914	6691909	2,087	4151910	2,696	649Honey	1896	125	161897	200	201898	732	831908	319	491909	835	811910	680	70Apples, green.. .	, .brls.	1896	528	8141897	5,204	4,3871898	64	1131908	13,265	27,2231909	563	9911910	4,490	13,130Berries, all kinds	.. ..$	1896 1^97	4,319 6,0711898	5,1571908	5,6771909	5,0191910	7,884.. ..$	1896	7,0901897	6,2241898	8,6671908	12,5441909	9,3151910	8,485Nuts, all kinds..	..lbs.	1896	1897	2,310	1181898	700	431908	1909	30,736	2,7651910	13,530	1,550Seeds, clover.. ..	1896	1,119	4,4171897	1898	606	2,3651908	4,687	39,2951909	2,358	18,6791910	3,824	28,440Seeds, grass .. .	.bush.	1896	1897	41	551898	885	2,6171908	36,452	31,9771909	5,758	6,6611910	14,151	14,6691896	110.	1897	1898	241908	4181909	1,3111910	4,804
Quan-	
Year.	tity.	Value.Hay	1896	617	6,7991897	180	1,2521898	6	171908	HO	1,6231909	25	1651910	28	300Straw	1896	192	9011897	30	1161898	1908	5	281909	1910	Trees, shrubs & plants, $	1896	1897	171898	181908	1511909	2,1771910	2,890. ..lbs.	1896	1897	76,615	5,7291898	150	271908	250,651	19,9331909	113,271	30,3121910	397,175	26,981Maple syrup ..	. .galls.	1896	1897	19	281898	12	111908	609	1901909	730	6931910	591	583Potatoes	1896	1897	15	81898	172	801908	111	1061909	69,583	35,2121910	93,690	52,273Turnips	1896	1897	11,059	1,1271898	27,011	3,1011908	99,219	14,8881909	126,519	23,0311910	125,992	16,726$	1896	9 Rflq1897	5^721898	3,1961908	16,7891909	50,1531910	70,118Flour of wheat..	. .brls.	1896	1897	1898	269	1,1061908	3	131909	1	51910	4	11Oatmeal	. .brls.	1896	5	201897	123	3931898	1908	1909	1910	1896	1897	151	1691898	1908	2,285	1,7211909	1910	7	1Beans	1896	11,068	12,0081897	1.311	9691898	1908	29,211	17,5121909	52,716	82,2761910	8,278	11,855Year.	tity.	Value.


Buckwheat .. .: 1896		
		1897		
		1898		
		1908		
1909	7,164	1,0111910	1	3Indian corn.. .	1896	515	1571897	258	451898	1908	1,226	9681909	2,182	2,3061910	1,313	1,169Oats	1896	160	451897	1.190	2121898	3,735	8851908	16	91909	7,669	3,6411910	3,013	1,231Pease	1896	121	3371897	509	2511898	78	391908	1,995	3,3521909	1,581	3,5221910	2,700	4,185Pease, split.. .	1910	1,886	2,217Rye	1898	630	272Wheat	1896	1897	6	101898	25	271908	5	101909	12	121910	31	47
Note -Fiscal years 1896, 1897 and 1898 ended June 30. Fiscal years 1908, 1909 and 1910 ended March 31.


CENSUS COMMISSIONER, YORK, NEW BRUNSWICK.
Mr. CROCKET:: Who is the census commissioner for the county of York, N.B., and when was the appointment made?


Mr. FISHER.: Mr. W. S. Hooper was appointed Census Commissioner for the county of York, N.B., by order in council under date the 31st March, 1911, but he has since resigned, and no one has yet been appointed in his stead.


CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY - GUARANTEE OP BONDS.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. GRAHAM moved that .to-morrow the House go into 'committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
Whereas, having regard to the growth of population and the rapid development of the production and trade of that portion of Canada lying west of the Great Lakes, and to the rapidly expanding trade and commerce of the Dominion generally it is in the interest of Canada as a whole that another line of railway designed to assist in the direct and economic interchange of traffic between the eastern and western portions of the Dominion, to open up and develop portions of Canada as yet without railway facilities, to promote the internal and foreign trade of Canada, to develop commerce through Canadian ports,
William Paterson: and to afford the government system of railways in Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, and interchange of through traffic, should be constructed from the Pacific Ocean to the city of Montreal: and whereas the projected line of the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company extending from Port Arthur to the city of Montreal will provide the uncompleted portion of the said through line lying east of the Great Lakes.
It is, therefore, resolved that it is expedient to provide as follows:-
1.	That His Majesty, on behalf of the Dominion of Canada, hereinafter called the government, may aid and assist the construction and completion by the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company (hereinafter called the company) of a line of railway extending from the city of Montreal in the province of Quebec to the city of Port Arthur in the province of Ontario, including the mileage of the line (lying between the said points) already in part constructed by the company and by the Canadian Northern Quebec Railway Company, extending from a point in the province of Quebec opposite the town of Hawkesbury to Rideau Junction, west of Ottawa, in the province of Ontario, by guaranteeing the principal and interest of the bonds, debentures, debenture stock or other securities, hereinafter called the guaranteed securities, of the company, to the extent of $35,000 per mile of the said line of railway so aided; interest on the guaranteed securities to be at the rate of 3i per cent per annum, payable half yearly; the principal to be payable in fifty years hereafter. The government may, subject to the provisions of an Act to be passed for such purpose enter into a contract with the company fixing the terms and conditions upon which the guarantee is given and of the security to be taken therefor.
2.	That the guarantee securities shall be secured by deed of trust by way of mortgage or charge to a trustee or trustees approved by the Governor in Council, granting a first mortgage or charge upon a line of railway extending from Montreal to Port Arthur, excepting the portion, above described, between a point on the Canadian Northern Quebec railway opposite Hawkesbury and Rideau Junction, about sixty-two and a half miles in length, and about ten and six-tenths miles of the company's Hutton branch, south of Sellwood Junction, and the right-of-way, station grounds, and other real estate, and interests therein, buildings and other structures and improvements, rolling stock and equipment (subject only to equipment bonds), plant, machinery, tools, supplies, materials, and other personal properties, present and future, acquired and to be acquired for the purposes of the said line, and in connection with the operating, repairing and maintaining thereof, and the tolls, incomes and revenues of the company arising and to arise therefrom, and the rights, privileges, franchises and powers of the company now or hereafter held with respect to and in connection with the said line, and the operation, maintenance and repair thereof, such deed of trust shall also grant a mortgage or charge upon the said ten miles of the company's Hutton branch, and upon the properties of the company thereto appertaining, ranking after the mortgages and charges created by two trust deeds made by the company to the British Empire Trust Company, Limited, and National Trust Company, Limited, dated July 12, 1906, and June 24, 1908, respectively, and after the thirty years 3i per cent debenture stock issued under such trust deeds, in so far as such debenture stock may from time to time be unexchanged and outstanding, and such deed of trust shall also grant a first mortgage or charge upon the bonds or debenture stock deposited under the next following paragraph.
3.	That the company shall deposit with the trustee or trustees of the said deed of trust, bonds or debenture stock issued under the trust deed dated June 28, 1909, made between the company and the British Empire Trust Company, Limited, and National Trust Company, Limited, to an amount equal to $35,000 per mile of the said line between a point on the Canadian Northern Quebec railway opposite Hawkesbury and Rideau Junction, and to $35,000 per mile of the said ten and six-tenths miles of the Hutton branch (being approximately $2,558,500 of such bonds or debenture stock); and the bonds or debenture stock so deposited shall form part of the mortgaged premises under the deed of trust, securing the guaranteed securities; and there may be included in the last mentioned deed of trust provisions respecting the interest on the bonds or debenture stock so deposited, and respecting the return to the Company (upon and after the discharge of the said trust deeds dated July 12, 1906, and June 24, 1908), of the bonds or debenture stock deposited in respect of the said ten and six-tenths miles of the Hutton branch freed and discharged from the mortgage or charge under the trust deed securing the said guaranteed securities.
4.	That in the said deed of trust there shall also be included a general charge, ranking after and subject to the mortgage or general charge created by the said trust deed dated June 28, 1909, (and subject to the powers of further issue therein reserved or contained) upon the line of railway of the company extending from the town of Hawkesbury to a point on the Niagara river, and upon the properties of the company thereunto appertaining.
5.	That the kind of securities to be guaranteed hereunder, and the forms thereof, and the form and terms of the deed of trust securing them, and the times and manner of the issue of the guaranteed securities, and the disposition of the moneys to be raised thereon by sale, pledge, or otherwise, pending the expenditure of such moneys for the purposes of the line of railway so aided, and the forms and manner of guarantee or guarantees shall be such as the Governor in Council approves, and such terms, provisions and conditions may be included in said deed of trust as the Governor in Council deems expedient or necessary.
6.	That upon the said guarantee or guarantees being signed by the Minister of Finance or other designated officer, the government shall become liable as guarantor for the payment of the principal and interest of the securities so guaranteed according to the tenor thereof, and such payments shall form a charge upon the Consolidated Revenue Fund;



and the said guarantee or guarantees so signed shall be conclusive evidence that the requirements of the Act respecting the guaranteed securities and the deed of trust and all matters relating thereto have been complied with.
7.	That the line hereby aided shall be constructed and completed according to the following specifications:-Bridges over rivers and large streams are to be of concrete and steel construction and to be built to the classification of the Heavy Standard Specification of the Department of Railways and Canals, dated 1908. Bridges of pile or frame trestle may be constructed over small streams which can be taken care of by culverts, such culverts to be constructed within a reasonable time after the line is put in operation, of which time the iGovernor in Council shall foe the sole judge. The line of railway shall be laid with steel rails, not less than 80 lbs. to the lineal yard-with standard fastenings. The maximum curvature shall not be of less radius than 716 feet, and the grades against east-bound traffic shall not exceed five-tenths of one per cent, or 26 AO feet per mile, or six-tenths of one per cent, or 31 -68 feet per mile, against the westbound traffic, provided that under exceptional conditions, with the consent of the Governor in Council, less radius of curvature and heavier grades may be allowed, on the recommendation of the Minister of Railways and Canals and approved by the chief engineer, but in no case shall the curvature exceed 573 feet radius or gradients of 52-80 feet to the mile.
8.	That the decision of the Governor in Council as to the length of the above mentioned lines shall be final.
9.	That subject as herein provided, any moneys paid by the government under any guarantee given in pursuance of any Act founded upon these resolutions shall be held to be paid of discharge of the liability of the government and not in discharge of the liability of the company under the guaranteed securities or under the Deed of Trust securing them, and the moneys so paid shall be held to be still secured by the guaranteed securities and Deed of Trust, and the government shall be subrogated in and to all the rights of the holders of the guaranteed securities, the interest upon or the principal of which has been paid by the government, and the government shall, with respect to all moneys so paid, be in all respects in the position of security holders with respect to whose securities default has been made in payment to the extent of the moneys paid by the government.
10.	The government may, at the request of the company, out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, pay all or any portion of the first four half-yearly payments of interest on the guaranteed securities falling due after the opening for traffic of the whole of the line so aided, but in such case the government shall not enforce the repayment thereof against the company under the said Trust Deed, or against the Canadian Northern Railway Company under its guarantee as provided for in paragraph 12 hereof until the maturity of tbe principal of the guaranteed securities pursuant to tbe terms thereof. The company shall, however, pending the repayment of the interest so paid by the govern-


Mr. GRAHAM.: ment, pay to the government half-yearly interest on such interest at the rate of three and one-half per cent per annum; and such interest, upon interest, until so paid, shall form a charge upon the mortgaged premises under the said Trust Deed.
11.	That the books of the company shall at all times be open to inspection for and on behalf of the government by any person named in that behalf by the Governor in Council, or by the Minister of Finance.
12.	That the Canadian Northern Railway Company shall, by covenants included in the Deed of Trust, referred to in paragraph 2 hereof, or in some other instrument agreed to between the Governor in Council or the Minister of Finance and the Canadian Northern Railway Company, in such form as the Governor in Council approves, guarantee to the government the due payment, by the company of the principal and interest of all securities issued and guaranteed by the government, under the provisions hereof, according to the tenor and effect of such guaranteed securities respectively, and in accordance with the terms and provisions hereof; and shall also guarantee to the government the due payment by the company of the deferred interest, and of the interest upon interest, if any, which may be payable by the company under paragraph 10 hereof; and shall further guarantee to tbe government the due payment by the company of all loss or costs which the government may sustain or be put to in enforcing, after default, the provisions of the said Deed of Trust against tbe line of railway and premises thereby mortgaged and charged.
13.	Tbat it is hereby declared that the aid
herein provided for is granted by the government for the express purpose of encouraging the transportation of goods through Canadian channels. Before such aid is granted the ' Governor in Council shall require the Canadian Northern Railway Company and the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company to enter into an agreement undertaking that all freight originating on the line of the Canadian Northern Railway Company or its branches, or on the line of the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company or its branches, not specifically routed otherwise by the shipper, shall, when destined to points in Canada, be carried over the Canadian Northern railway, or the Canadian Northern Ontario railway, or the connections of either, or over any railway within Canadian territory; and that the through rate on export traffic from the point of origin to the point of destination shall at no time be greater via Canadian ports than via United States ports, and that all such traffic, not specifically routed otherwise by the shipper, shall be carried to Canadian ocean ports; and that the Canadian Northern Railw-ay Company and the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company shall not in any matter within their powers directly or indirectly advise or encourage the transportation of such freight by routes other than those above provided, but shall, in all respects, in good faith, use their utmost endeavours to fulfil the conditions upon which public aid is granted, namely, the development of trade through Canadian channels and Canadian ocean ports.	.
It. That the company shall enter into an agreement with tbe government to secure

or establish or cause to be secured or established, suitable terminals for the company within the city of Montreal and agreeing on the request of the government to enter into arrangements with the Intercolonial railway for the interchange of traffic between the company and the Intercolonial railway at Montreal, for such period as the Governor in Council may determine and upon such terms as may be agreed upon between the parties, and should the parties fail to agree, terms shall be fixed by the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada.
He said: I may add that His Excellency the Governor General has been apprised of the subject matter of this resolution, has given.his assent thereto, and commends it to the favourable consideration of the House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day being called:
Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Mr. Speaker, I would crave the indulgence of the House for a few minutes to discuss what should be the course of the House and its business in consequence of the fact that I, as Prime Minister, have to absent myself from the country in order to attend the Imperial Conference which is to be opened in London on the 23rd of this month, and afterwards, the coronation ceremonies.
Some days ago, my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden), alluded to this fact, and to certain rumours which had been circulated in the press, and he suggested that one of three courses might be followed. The first was that the House might continue to sit in my absence, which he said, was more for the convenience of the Prime Minister and his colleagues than for the members of the House generally; the second was that the House might be prorogued, and the third was that the House might adjourn, sufficient supplies being previously voted to carry on the business of the country in the interim. As to prorogation, I think the House will agree that, to say the least, it would be inconvenient without parliament having carried through any important part of its business. As to the first suggestion, that the House might sit in the absence of the Prime Minister, there are I think three precedents to my personal knowledge. There is the precedent in 1894, when Sir John Thompson attended the negotiations in Paris between the United1 States and Great Britain on the question of pelagic sealing. Then, the first year this government was in office, in 1897, I absented myself from the House to attend the jubilee of her late Majesty, Queen Victoria; and in the third case, in 1907, I left the House in session to attend the Imperial Confer-275J
enee of that year. In these instances, the business of the House was practically at an en<p no contentious matter was left over, and practically the end of the session was at hand. In the present instance I must say that I felt somewhat loath to leave such a heavy burden upon my colleagues in my absence, because practically very little of the work of the session has been done, and very much remains to do. There are some important matters as to which there is contention between the two parties; there are other important matters on which the parties can agree with more readiness. My colleagues kindly undertook to relieve me of the burden of attendance, each one of them expressing his willingness to do my share of the work, and after full consideration I saw no objection to my being absent, leaving the House to go on with the business. But while it would be well to carry on the business of the House to a conclusion, if it could be done, there was another feature which was lacking altogether in the three precedents I have cited, and that is, this being coronation year, there is, I believe, a unanimous opinion in the House that there should be an adjournment so that the Canadian parliament may be represented at the coronation. Action has been taken in that respect . already, but apart from that representation, many other members of the House are anxious to attend such an historic event. We will,"! believe, be meeting the views of all the members of the House if we resolve that parliament shall adjourn a sufficient length of time to permit its representation at the coronation. The question, therefore, arises as to what the adjournment should be so as to give members of the House opportunity to leave in time to see the festivities, and to come back. I have thought, after conference with some friends on both sides of the House, that we should sit until the end of May and adjourn in the first days of June, but it has been represented to me that in the last days of May there are two holidays on which the House does not generally sit, namely, the 24th of May, Victoria Day, and the 25th of May. Ascension Day. It will, therefore, be inconvenient to have members come here on the first of the week and be idle during the two holidays, and on the whole, after conference with my friend's opposite, we thought it well that the House should adjourn not later than the 23rd of May. Then, on considering when we should r.esume our sittings, I came to the conclusion that it would be practically impossible to meet [DOT]before the 18th of July. I, therefore, give notice to the House that that is the programme we intend to carry out, namely to adjourn about the 23rd of May, to resume about the 18th of July. In the meantime, until the 23rd of May, the House

will continue in session advancing the business as far as possible, and, I believe there may be a good deal of practical and useful work done in the meantime. Then, there remains the question of surmlies to be voted. We have had supplies voted to the first of June, and after consultation with friends on both sides of the House, we think that supplies ought to be advanced until the first of September. There are, however, some items of supply which must he voted in full, independent of such agreements. There is the vote for the military and Northwest Mounted Police contingents, which are to attend the coronation, and with respect to them a partial vote would not be sufficient. There is also in this category the vote for the Festival of Empire, which although a private enterprise, has been contributed to by all the daughter nations, and our contribution, therefore, must be paid immediately. Then, the Minister of the Interior has some Indian annuities, which have to be paid to the Indians regularly and expeditions to pay them have to be started in advance. Such expenses must be voted in their entirety.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: They are treaty obligations, I suppose.


Wilfrid Laurier: They are treaty obligations. There may be some other items which it will be necessary to vote in full, and at once, but there are others as to which it will not be inconvenient to vote in instalments. These are the views which I have to submit to the House for the carrying on of business consequent upon the present conditions.


Robert Laird Borden: The Prime Minister has already mentioned to me, privately, many of the matters he has spoken of. As to the date of adjournment, I have already told him, as I tell him now, that in view of what I have' already said across the floor, I consider it a matter which should be left pretty much to his own judgment. I am, therefore, perfectly willing to concur in the dates he has mentioned. It may perhaps be suggested that it would be hardly worth while to come back over Saturday and Sunday, and meet for two days of the following week, namely, the 22nd or 23rd, but I merely throw out that suggestion, and I leave it entirely to his own judgment. As to the date on which the House should resume, I am willing that the Prime Minister should have his views carried out in that respect as well. With respect to the Supply that is required- for. the military and Northwest Mounted Police coronation contingent, the Festival of Empire, and the Indian annuities, which, as I understand, are treaty obligations, there will be no objection whatever to voting them in full. It is perfectly proper and Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
right that they should be voted in full under the circumstances. In conclusion I can only say that I am very happy indeed that the Prime Minister will be able to attend, both the Imperial Conference and the coronation.


Mr. GOODEVE.: I have no desire to offer any criticism to the suggested programme outlined by the First Minister. I would like to emphasize the suggestion offered by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden) that as the 23rd of May will be a Tuesday, by adjourning on the previous Friday, the 19th of May, there would not be a great deal of time lost, none that could not be made up by sitting a little later at night. A large portion of the time of the western members will be taken up in going to and coming from our several homes, six days each way, and to some extent the same thing applies to the eastern members. We have already had two adjournments in this long session, at Christmas and Easter, and with this third adjournment each western member will have lost 36 days in travelling during these recesses.
The date fixed for the reassembling of parliament is in the middle of the very hottest season in Ottawa. We have had a strenuous session owing to illness during the hard and unusual winter, and I know that our western members rather enjoy our own mild climate and consider it quite a hardship to have to come back here in the intense heat. For that reason I would again suggest that instead of Tuesday, July 18, the Prime Minister should make the date two weeks later, Tuesday, August 1.


Mr. HUGHES.: As I may not be present when the items to which the Prime Minister has referred are under discussion I take this opportunity of saying that I have recently been through portions of the Northwest territories, and if ever men earned a trip to the coronation, the Mounted police during the past winter have earned it. From scores of sources I learned that every new homesteader in the Canadian Northwest, so far as could possibly be ascertained, and they were well looked up, was visited once or twice every month during the stern winter endured in the Northwest and they were asked if they were in want of food or fuel. I take this opportunity of mentioning to the First Minister that this was very highly appreciated all through the Northwest.


Mr. RHODES.: Coming from the extreme east, I would endorse the remarks made by my hon. friend from Kootenay, who speaks for the extreme west. A large number of the members of the House live comparatively near Ottawa and can return home almost any time by a few hours' rail journey and one day is the same to them as another; but to those who live

more than a thousand miles away every day counts, and if the House would adjourn on Friday, May 19, many of us could spend Sunday at home and gain practically 5 days with a loss of only 2 to the service of the House. As has been suggested we could sit later on the last two days to make up for the time. With respect to coming back on the 1st of August instead of the 18th of July, if the government could see its way clear to meet that suggestion, I am sure it would he approved of by hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House, who have to come extreme distances.


Mr. REID (Grenville).: Coming from a point close to Ottawa I certainly have no reason to complain at the House sitting until May 23 and resuming on July 18, but I think there is another reason why we should try if possible to adjourn on Friday, and that is the 24th of May is a public holiday. There is not a constituency I believe in Canada in which there will not be a celebration of some kind on that day, and I think every member would like to be present if possible at these celebrations. Personally I am willing to do everything to hurry the work through so as to adjourn on Friday. As to resuming on July 18, the Prime Minister will agree that July is generally the holiday month of the year. Every person endeavours to go for a holiday in that month, and the very fact of having to come back on the 18th of July will interfere not only with the members but with their families. We could also perhaps help to rush the work through after we came back on the 1st of August if we adjourned until that date. So far as I am concerned I really think that if the right hon. the Prime Minister can possibly see his way clear to adjourn until the 1st of August it would be much better. It would certainly be of great assistance to members by enabling them to give their families the usual benefit of the summer vacations. I hope the Prime Minister will see his way to an adjournment to the 1st of August.


Mr. CLARK (Red Deer).: In case an endorsement from this side should add force to the suggestion from my hon. friend the leader of the opposition, I should like to add my very frank approval of it. There is no need for me to add anything to what has been said by hon. gentlemen opposite on the point. It is apparent that those of us who come from very great distances in the west have great advantage to gain by getting away from here on Friday night instead of having to remain until the following Tuesday. There is very much force also in what my hon. friend from Grenville (Mr. Reid) has said as to the desirability of our being at home for the various functions to be held to celebrate one of
the most important holidays not only in this country but in the empire.	,


Mr. FOSTER.: I think that my right hon. friend the Prime Minister is convinced as to the desirability of an earlier adjournment in May; but looking at him intentlv, I cannot come to the conclusion that he is convinced of the desirability of our reassembling later than July 18. But there is one argument which I would like to adduce what might have some weight with him. The Prime Minister has on previous occasions been over on functions something similar to the one now facing him. He knows the difficulties, the troubles, the menaces, gastronomic and otherwise, which he will have to face; and though his robust constitution may enable him to live through it all and resume work on the 18th of July with his usual vigour, his less robust colleagues, who are to accompany him, will probably not find themselves in as good condition in a sanitary sense. I submit therefore as an unanswerable argument, that, after these functions cn the other side are through, he should provide them with a fortnight's rest at some good cure where they can renew their vigour, and so be ready for work.


Mr. TAYLOR (Leeds).: I am sure that 1 speak the sentiments of my hon. friend the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) when I say that those of us who live among the Thousand Islands do not want to be dragged away from them on the 18th of July. I am satisfied further that the Minister of Railways requires some rest as he has been under the weather lately. For myself if the Prime Minister wants to bring us back in the dog days I can stand it, but I would much prefer that we should meet on the 1st of August.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is just one othei argument that might be advanced. I noticed a cartoon in one of the papers the other day which depicted the Prime Minister as being troubled concerning the nurse he was leaving in charge of an infant called reciprocity, which was bawling with mouth open from ear to ear. The only way to keep it asleep during his absence from parliament was for the nurse to dose it with chloroform and paregoric; but if the House adjourned, on the Friday instead of the Monday following, there would be three days less time during which that infant would be required to be kept asleep.


Wilfrid Laurier: I think the infant is vigorous and kicking, and in no need of paregoric. I have listened carefully to everything that has been said. I am only the servant of the House, and want to consult the views of the House as much as possible. We are here, however,, to do certain work, and that work must be,

done. My hon. friend from Kootenay (Mr, Goodeve) suggests that we should adjourn on the Friday preceding the 23rd of May. I shall not be here at that time, and if any modifications are to be made to the programme I have suggested, there is nothing to prevent their being made if the House will sit late and begin business early. Perhaps it would be well that we should begin morning sittings immediately, say next Monday, and in that way get through the work quicker. But there is certain work to be done as to which we cannot agree. For instance, if we were to discuss reciprocity at present, my hon. friends opposite would not be disposed to facilitate the business of the House. There is, however, other business as to which we can agree, and which can be disposed of. If it be found that the legislation on the programme is advanced sufficiently, the House might agree to advance the adjournment from the 23rd to the 19th. With regard to the other suggestion, that we should not meet again until the 1st of August, that is a matter largely in the hands of the House.
If the House will agree to vote sufficient Supply to carry us on a decent time, we might meet later, but if we have Supply voted only to the 1st of September, we shall have to resume business on the 18th of July.



CIVIL SERVICE ACT-AMENDMENT.

[Stage Direction]
House went into committee _ to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to amend the Civil Service Act and the Acts in amendment thereof, and to provide as follows:
1.	As seotion 39,' subsection 2. That a person who has served over three years as a clerk in the outside service of the Customs may be appointed to the rank of senior clerk, subject to such examination on the duties of office and other qualifications as is prescribed by the deputy head in a report to be concurred in by the head of the department. The salary of such senior clerk shall be from $1,200 to $1,600 per annum.
2.	That the part of Schedule 'B' of the Civil Service Act which relates to Customs be repealed and the following substituted therefor:

[Stage Direction]
Higher Classes.
Collectors	
Chief inspector	
Inspector of ports	
Assistant inspectors	
Chief clerks	
Surveyors	
Assistant surveyors (comprising tide surveyors, chief landing waiters and chief lookers)	
Salary per annum, from
ft	ft
ft
tt
t«	tt
tt	tt
Technical Officers.
Dominion appraisers	Salary per annum, from
Appraisers	 "	"
Assistant appraisers	
Gaugers	
Other Classes.
Senior clerks	Salary per annum, from
Clerks and landing waiters	
Examining officers (including preventive officers whose duties are not chiefly clerical,
and lockers)	
Packers and messengers	
Increase.
$ 300 to $1,500			Nil,
3,200	ft	4,000	Nil.2,100	tt	3,200	7001,G00	tt	2.000	2001,200	ft	2.100	1001.200	ft	2,800	4001,200	tt	1,600	400$2,100	to $2,600	5001,200	" 2,400	400900	" 1.600	100900	" 1,600	400$1,200	to	$1,600	400400	tt	1.200	Nil,100	tt	1,000	Nil400	tt	800	200
William Paterson: $1,200 is now the maximum of those clerks who come under the 1st resolution. There are many in the service who have been there many years, and have attained to their maximum, and to whom we cannot grant any increased salary. Considering their position and responsibilities, it is thought desirable that those who have been in the service some time, and have proved themselves qualified under examination, might be promoted to a new class, Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
to be called the rank of senior clerk, with a maximum of $1,600.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The trouble is that this includes those who had been employed in this capacity for only three years. It seems to me this might result in bringing into the service men' of limited experience and equally limited knowledge. It might be used as a scheme to transfer men from one position in the service to another, giving them a much larger salary than their

*qualifications would entitle them to. I could understand this applying to men who have been for a considerable length of time in the outside service, but three years is only a limited time.


William Paterson: Many of these have been in the service for far longer than three years. This will apply to those who, besides having had the length of service provided for, have the necessary qualification, to be ascertained by an examination. Without this amendment we could not advance these clerks though some of them have been for years at $1,200.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But the limit should be made greater than three years.


William Paterson: I would rather the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) would not take exception to that. For it might exclude some who should not be excluded, and three years is a fair test.


Mr. BLAIN.: What will be the system of examination?


William Paterson: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Blain) will see that it is to be an examination on the duties of office, and that there are to be other qualifications as prescribed by the deputy head in a report to . be concurred in by the head of the department.


Richard Blain: Would the deputy head be the exclusive examiner?


William Paterson: He would set the
papers. I think it is his intention that the papers be examined by the commission. But it will he an examination peculiar to the position.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I recognize the justice of doing something for these men, and am not raising the slightest objection to this provision as it applies to them. But, if the service has been loaded up with a number of young men who were started at a much higher figure than their predecessors in the service, and who have obtained the $1,200 in a short time, and if this provision gives them a raise at once without their having had more experience-and probably with no more than commqn qualifications-it seems to me there is danger that either you are doing less than justice to your older employees, or more than justice to the new ones. If it would apply only to a few it would not be so bad; but if it applies to many, it might be an abuse which we should not favour. That is why. I asked the minister as to the number who could take advantage of this arrangement.


William Paterson: Of course, some of those to whom this would apply have not been so long in the service as others have been. But look at it in this way. Would the hon. member (Mr. Sproule) consider that $1,200 was as much as a man engaged in clerical work is entitled to after years of service and experience? If their services are worth more than $1,200, no abuse could arise even if, after examination, they were given by degrees advances to $1,600. Would the hon. gentleman think that $1,200 is all that a clerk is worth, especially in large places where "the work requires quickness, correctness and other important qualities?


Richard Blain: How many years would it take for an officer having $1,200 to reach the maximum of $1,600?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Can the minister give us an idea of the number in the outside service who might take advantage of this, and who have been there only three years, together with the salaries they are receiving at the present time?


William Paterson: I could give it with reference , to the salaries. They are at the maximum, and that is the reason for introducing this clause.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the maximum?


William Paterson: It is $1,200. But I could not give the exact number of clerks who would come under this provision. It would apply pretty generally to those who have been there for the length of time stated. They would not get the whole advance at once; $1,600 would be the maximum, and they would reach it by degrees. Many, especialy in Montreal and Toronto, have remained at $1,200 for some years, and we could not do anything for them though we felt they deserved higher remuneration.


William Paterson: The rule that applies to the inside service of increases of $50 or $100 according to classification does not apply to the outside service. It is left to the department to recommend by order in council the advances to these officers. Their fitness is ascertained by reports of collectors and inspectors, and by the work of the clerks as it comes before the department. I am asking this year two or three hundred thousand extra, but when this is divided among 2,000 of all ranks from the Atlantic to the Pacific it means that vve are able to give only about $50, or, in some cases $100, and to some of the higher officers may be $200. You will observe that in this new classification we are raising the maximum of the examining and preventive officers whose duties are not chiefly clerical. The deputy thinks that men doing the work they do should reach a larger maximum, and that a thousand dollars should be the maximum. If there were any very deserving officers capable of going higher, we would ask them to

8710
pass an examination, in which they might pass out of that class into the class of clerks where they might go to $1,200.


Mr. LALOR.: Does this affect the ordinary collector of customs, or the examiners of ports of entries such as Port Erie?


William Paterson: Yes, it would affect them all. The collectors used to run from $300 to $4,000, a very wide range; now they will go from $300 to $4,500. A year or two ago an Act was passed by which we were permitted to raise the maximum of collectors to $4,500, to meet the case of two or three collectors at the largest ports, such as Montreal, Toronto and Winnipeg. The collector at Fort Erie gets, I think, about $1,800. We might find it necessary to give him a little increase. In the hon. gentleman's town the revenue has increased, and I said to the deputy that I thought we were hardly compensating the collector there for his work. Cases of that kind have been taken into consideration. We are asking for $300,000 or $400,000 more, but when it is scattered over so large a number we cannot give a large increase.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I appreciate very much the remarks of the Minister of Customs with regard to the increase in the salary of the collector in my own town-I was going to mention him particularly. He is an old and efficient officer, and the collections at that port have increased to such an enormous extent that his salary is not at- all in proportion to the revenue. I hope the minister will take his case into consideration. He is a careful officer, and has not been properly paid at all. I think his salary now is about $850 a year. He has to keep a family, and when we consider the increased cost of living, that salary is not nearly enough. Fort Erie is not in my constituency, but I want to say the same with reference to the suDoram-ates at Fort Erie, some of whom I understand, are getting .a salary of $700 a year. On this salary they are expected to keep up a family, and to maintain a certain respectability. As a member of this House,
I would be glad to see such officers as 1 speak of receive an increase in salary. They are just as deserving, and in many cases more so, than the higher officers and collectors of ports. I would like to see the minister take into consideration such officers as I have mentioned, in view of the increased cost of living. Their salary has not been increased in the same proportion as the salaries of officers in almost every other capacity.


George Eulas Foster: I would have been much better pleased if the minister had come ' Mr. PATERSON.
to a decision to place these outside men under the Civil Service Act, and under stable conditions. The minister has left himself a three years' limit. Now for four or five years, if I understand his procedure aright, he has been appointing men at better salaries than usual; properly so, because the cost of living has increased, and he has recognized the necessity, in order to get good men, ot giving them at least something to live upon, and probably also he has felt the reasonableness of it. But we have in the outside service, as the minister knows well, a large number of old servants, who were appointed a great many years ago, who have not had increases, but who have to maintain their families, ana carry on the expenses of a home. Now, it is harder on such a man than it would be on a young man. A young man is more hopeful, and his resiliency is greater, he is better able to come back again after feeling depressed. But an old servant who has reached a more advanced period of life, who is still at a small salary, with no hope of promotion-that is the class of men to whom I want to call the minister's attention particularly. Whilst I would rather see the three year limit maintained, because I think that enables the minister to make those provisions for all the younger men who were lately appointed at large salaries, we must rememoer that tne minister is a party man, and is at the call of the party to a large extent, and he is bound to listen to patronage claims. I think he has human nature enough in him to 'listen to them. But there will be great injustice done if, when parliament grants these possible increases, the minister does not set himself to work to ameliorate the condition of these old servants at small salaries. I want to make a plea to the minister for that class of men. If I talked for an hour I could not make the plea any stronger than I am making it.


William Paterson: Even under this three year limit, before they can get into this other class, in all the branches of the service that the hon. gentleman alluded to we have the power now either to grant an increase or not, according to circumstances. Length of service is one of the circumstances that should not be overlooked, and efficiency is another, and a good deal depends upon corresponding salaries in other ports. Collectors examine closely wnat changes are made, and what is paid collectors working beside them at other ports. Consequently we have to establish a kina of rough rule, which, however, cannot be a rule, because one collector might have just as much work to do, though his revenue might not show so large as that of

another. Perhaps there may be a large amount of shipping, and much work in entering and clearing vessels at a certain port. But we are trying to advance them all. As I said before, parliament has been very kind to us. I think in the last three or four years parliament has given us over half a million dollars, some of which has gone to establish new ports, but most of it has gone in salaries. When you consider that we have to provide for a .numerous staff from the Atlantic to the Pacific, we have to ask for large sums, which sometimes have appeared to me a little startling. But the House recognizes the fact that the salaries ought to be higher than they were a few years ago, and I think I can say honestly that I have done something in that direction. I suppose I have the feelings that actuate others and that reasons may be shown, perhaps, other than those of sufficiency, or efficiency, or duties, but I do try, as far as I can, and I think my officers try as far as they can, in the distribution ot tnese moneys, to act rairiy. l think I can honestly say that the fact as to what the political complexion of an officer may have been in days gone by does not count against him, and it ought not to.


George Eulas Foster: No, it should not.


William Paterson: If a vacancy occurs and a suitable persons to fill it is recommended to me, if that person happened to be of the Liberal faith, he would not be rejected therefor. I am speaking with reference to-new appointments. But men who have been in the service, no matter when they came in or what they may have been before, if they are doing their duty faithfully and well and it is possible to give a general increase, there will be full consideration given to their cases on their merits. That is the way we try to do. Of course, we cannot satisfy everybody. Some officers think that they are worth more, perhaps, than my chief officers or inspectors report, and we are not able to satisfy them. But, I think, as a rule, the service is pretty well satisfied that they have been fairly dealt with. Their only complaint would be that those in the service are not paid as they should be, and really, if you take the whole customs service and divide it up, putting the low and high salaries together, you will find that tlie average salary is considerably under a thousand dollars. I think it is only about $800, and that will not be considered extravagant payment for them.


George Eulas Foster: That is the outside service?


William Paterson: That is the outside service.


Mr. RUSSELL.: I would like to ask the minister if there is any general increase to be
granted to the clerks and landing waiters? These are officers who are receiving what I would consider to be small pay-about $700 or $800 a year. Are they to get an increase in their pay this year?


William Paterson: My deputy has a memorandum prepared of some hundreds of increases taking the Dominion altogether. I have not that under my hand at the present time, and I do not know that it would be advisable to read it publicly in the House.


Joseph Russell: You do not know the amount of increase that each wdll receive?


William Paterson: No, but if the salaries of these officers are $800 or thereabouts, I do not know whether there would be much of an increase to them. It may seem that this is small enough to pay men, but the highest they can go up to in the service is $1,000. There are a great many who are receiving $700 and $800. If they were getting an increase it would probably be about $50. An increase can only be given as the money is appropriated; there is no automatic increase as in the inside service. A great many men have been in the service for years and years, and perhaps, until within the last two years, have not received any increase at all. I have in my mind one efficient officer who is now holding a high position, but who was for eighteen years precisely at the same salary of $1,000. He is receiving a higher salary now. But the increases are not rapid. I sometimes wonder at the pressure there is from capable men to enter the Civil Service, and young men at that, because it does seem to me that there are far better opportunities for men with their abilities in other w-alks of life than in the Civil Service. There are so' few prizes in the Civil Service. It has this advantage, that it is permanent, it is a respectable position, the hours are not very long, and that has its attraction foT certain people, but to the energetic young man my personal advice would be to try and see if he cannot do better somewhere else. One of the great difficulties in advancing the salaries of these officers is that if a vacancy takes place in one qf the offices drawing a salary of $700 or $800 you will get over a dczen applicants for. it all eager to get the position. You know that in your own business, things are kind of regulated by the law of supply and demand, and in a public office, as a trustee of the people, you have to be guided somewhat by tbe same principle. It is the very multiplicity of the applications to get into the public service that makes it difficult. When they get in it is not an unusual thing for them to ask for an advance.


Mr. HENDERSON.: About the first thing, is it not?


William Paterson: I will not say that in every case, but it is so.


Robert Laird Borden: Before this carries I would like to observe that I appreciate very much some of the considerations that the minister has brought forward, but I would like to say to him that there has been a good deal of complaint, and I might almost add scandal, in connection with the treatment of some of the men in the Halifax custom office. These men, who are men of very great capacity and of very long service, have been overlooked. According to statements in the press, for which I do not vouch, but which the minister can put right if they are not correct, these men have been overlooked for a great many years, while men who have entered the service within the past ten or twelve years have received salaries that are much more adequate in relation to the amount of work done than the salaries of the men to whom I allude. I can give the minister some illustrations of this, as I have them here right under my hand. I can give him the case of men who entered the service within seven or eight years, and who have salaries as high as men who have been thirty years in the service, and I venture to say that he could not get a report from the collector of customs at Halifax which would indicate that there is any good reason for that discrimination. It has been stated in the public press of Halifax that three of these men, who have been a long time in the service, were recommended for an increase by the collector of customs of Halifax, Mr. Mitchell, a very capable man, who was appointed by this government, and that the recommendation of Mr. Mitchell in that regard was entirely overlooked. This is said to be due to the fact that the gentleman who represented the county between 1904 and 1908 put in a very strong objection and protest to the increases being granted. I do not know whether that statement is correct or not, but I do say that, if the minister permitted' the recommendation of the collector of customs at- Halifax to that end to be overlooked upon such a protest or objection, I do not think he was doing his duty. I know Mr. Mitchell very well; he was a strong Liberal before he was appointed to the position which he now holds, a very strong and a very active Liberal, and I do not think that any one in Halifax objected to his appointment. I congratulated him myself upon his appointment, and I think he has discharged the duties of the office there with a great deal of efficiency. If these recommendations were made for increases of salary they ought not to have been passed over for any such reason as has been stated in the public press.


William Paterson: If that was the reason.
Mr. HENDERSON


Robert Laird Borden: Yes, if that was the. reason. I am not asserting that it was the reason.


William Paterson: Of course, our officers do not feel bound to take the recommendations of collectors in all cases, but they are bound to give them due consideration. You can understand that the collectors quite naturally would like to see all the officers advanced, and, therefore, we are not able to meet their views in all cases. But if there is any case overlooked without good reason, I would be pleased if the hon. gentleman would give the name.


Robert Laird Borden: I will give the names at once. The first one is Mr. W. A. Garrison. I had no communication from Mr. Garrison, directly or indirectly, and all I know about his case I gather from the public press. He is surveyor of the port of Halifax; he has been acting collector during the illness of Mr. Harrington, the predecessor of Mr. Mitchell; he is a man of ability, and of long experience, and I have not heard that there ever has been any complaint against him; he entered the service forty-one years ago as tidewaiter, became clerk in the long room, and was promoted to the vacant surveyorship about twenty years ago. When this newspaper article was written two years ago, his salary was $1,500, and I think it remains at that still.


William Paterson: I see it was that a year ago.


Robert Laird Borden: The man who
fills the same position in Quebec gjkrts $2,000; in St. John, $1,700; in Ottawa, $1,650, and in Vancouver, $2,000, while Mr. Garrison, with forty-one years service, and with the ability to act as collector, receives only $1,500. Another officer mentioned in the^Halifax ' Herald ' of 21st June, 1909, is Mr. J. O'Brien. I have had no communication from him, and I know nothing of his case except what is to be found in this newspaper article. He has had forty years service, he has been chief clerk for twenty years, his present salary is $1,200, and he has had no increase since 1893. In an interview I had with the minister, at which was present the Commissioner of Customs and two other officers of the department, I mentioned the case of Mr. John R. Power, and I would remind the minister tfiat the salary of Mr. Power, after thirty years service, is only $950, although there are several men performing similar duties, having not more than six or seven years' service, who receive higher salaries. I am not complaining of the salaries given these men of recent appointment; I do not say that any one of them is receiving more than he should; I would not be surprised to learn that some of them are receiving less

than what might properly be paid to them; but I do say that the apparent discrimination between these gentlemen and Mr. Power ought not to continue, and that some recognition should be given to long and faithful service.


William Paterson: Your comparisons are between officers in other ports, and not the officers in Halifax.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax.) In the other cases, but not in this case. I am saying that these men have been overlooked in salary increases for a great many years; I am calling the attention of the minister to the statement that these men have been recommended over and over again, for an increase of salary by the present collector, Mr. Mitchell, and that in no case has an increase been granted to anv one of them. I hope the minister will take these individual cases into consideration.


William Paterson: I do not say anything against Mr. Garrison, but he is an aged man now, and there does exist this discrepancy between the same officers at different ports, and St. John and Halifax watch each other very closely when comparisons are made. We have found, in order to get good men, that i't is necessary to start them at a higher salary than was the case in years gone by. In the earlier years of jmy administering the department, as a rule we started a new officer at a lower rate than had been attained after years of service by the officers he was replacing, but lately we have had to give higher salaries.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think the minister's explanation is borne out by the facts, because I can give him the names of men who have been appointed six or seven years ago at salaries of $600, and who are now receiving as high as $1,100.


William Paterson: That would be an exceptional case.


Robert Laird Borden: There are quite a list of them.


William Paterson: Will the hon. gentleman give the names?


Robert Laird Borden: I do not wish to mention the names of these gentlemen in public, because I am taking no exception at all to the salaries paid them, but I will send the minister a private memorandum.


William Paterson: I will look into the matter.


Robert Laird Borden: It does not conduce to a good feeling in the service if it is considered that these advances are made for reasons that cannot properly be described as in the public interest. There ought to be some explanation of these
apparent discriminations when they are brought to the attention of the minister.


Mr. LAKE.: While the Civil Service Act was under discussion, the members of the government expressed the hope that in the near future it would be possible to bring the officials in the Customs and Post Office outside service under the Act. Has the minister gone into this question, and when does he think he will be able to submit a proposal of this kind to the House.


William Paterson: I have discussed that question with the officers of the department frequently, and we desire if possible to bring about such an arrangement, particularly in larger cities. There are, however, difficulties in working out a scheme owing to the nature of the work and the classifications now existing in the inside service. I do not believe it would apply to small places at all because a man who passed the examination, say in Ottawa, would not care to be appointed to a position in some small and remote port. In the large ports it would be a great benefit to the department. Men would be sent to us by the Civil Service Commission because they had taken the highest examinations. Whether we can accomplish this next year I do not know, but we would like to have something of the kind. It would be a great relief. The appointment of clerks in the inside service by the Civil Service Commission has been a marvellous relief in the work of the department.


Richard Blain: How are such officers appointed to the outside service?


William Paterson: We try to find out as w'ell as we can how they are fitted for the positions.


Mr. ARMSTRONG.: If this is such a marvellous relief for the inside service what objection would the minister have to having appointments made by the Civil Service Commission to the outside service?


William Paterson: There is no objection except the difficulty of working out a scheme which we are trying to overcome.


Mr. JAMESON.: How many clerks will be affected under this arrangement, and how will it money out?


William Paterson: My deputy is in Montreal to-day, and so I have not with me any calculation of this kind. Of course we could not tell how much money would be involved as we could not say how many would pass the examination. The increases would be made in the regular yearly instalments of $50 or $100. The increases will not be very great in the aggregate and individually they seem very small.


Clarence Jameson: When -was the last increase given to the officials in the out-ports?


William Paterson: I think there was a very general increase last year, where the salaries were low. In certain ports in the maritime provinces, the department gave only $300 to $350. That seems a very small sum, but there is very little work. In the outports from $300 to $500 is the usual payment. In Manitoba and the other provinces the salaries are higher. Last year we tried to bring all the low paid officials to about as high a salary as we intended to carry them.


Clarence Jameson: The minister will not suppose that I wish to oppose increases to any one in the service of the department, because I entertain no such idea. I think that in many instances they are underpaid. I thought that it would have been well for us to know just how many persons would be affected by this legislation. If a large business house were proposing anything of this kind, a memorandum would be submitted to the directors or shareholders showing just what burden would be involved. I understood from the minister that an increase was provided for the out-port officers last year. I find by referring to the Auditor General's Report for the year ending March 31, 1910, that a number of officers of customs in the outports are paid very small salaries. Take the county of Rigby in which I am more particularly interested.


William Paterson: Is that the port of Digby?	1


Clarence Jameson: The outports of the port of Digby, and the port of Weymouth. Some of the officers are paid as low as $200 per year, and some $300. These officers have to be always ready to discharge the duties devolving upon them. These duties keep them at home to a certain extent as they must be on hand when required, and they discharge their duties very faithfully. The trifling salary of $200 is absolutely insufficient for any man supposed to discharge the important duties which devolve upon a customs officer. I should be very glad to know that an increase had been given them, but on referring to the last Auditor General's Report I see that their salaries remain the same. Many of these officers have been in the employ of the government for years. I am not speaking of any one county or province, because "the salaries in general of these men are insufficient. If substantial increases, as proposed by these resolutions, aTe to be given, to clerks who may have been in the service only three years, something should be done for these other officials who have faithfully dis-Mr. PATERSON
charged their duties during five, ten or fifteen years, and who have had no increase, although the cost of living has increased in these outports m the same ratio as in the cities and towns. When the minister brings forward a resolution of this character, he should be prepared to give information as to the number of officers who will participate in the increase, and the exact sum to which these increases will amount in the way of an additional burden on the country.


William Paterson: As regards the class to which my hon. friend has referred, I could not give them any expectation of any increase. The view we take is that they are at their maximum.


Clarence Jameson: From him who hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath, and to him who hath shall be given.


William Paterson: No, but there must be some regard for the work done. At many of these outports, the salary of $350-


Clarence Jameson: Some have only $200.


William Paterson: Perhaps if these men were given the revenue they collect instead of a salary, they would prefer to take the salary. What is the department to do in a case of that kind? The revenue is not large, but pressure has been brought time and again to have officers at certain places to enter and clear vessels. Perhaps in some of these places there are not over ten or twelve entries and clearances in a year, and the revenue is not as large as the salaries paid. These men were simply appointed for the convenience of some shipper, and they have scarcely any work to do. In some cases, the customs officer will be a farmer. When a vessel is loaded with timber, its master goes to this officer and gets a clearance from him, and it may not take half an hour to give it. These ports are simply for the convenience of very few people, but once you establish an outport, you cannot close it without arousing great feeling. Of course these outports are a great facility to some shipper. Instead of having to sail ten or twelve miles to a port where we are able to pay a collector a proper salary, the shipmaster can get his papers on the spot, and that is why he wants a man there. These men do not live on what we pay them. They are engaged in other duties, and their duties as customs officer probably do not take up an hour of their time. In the Dominion we have more ports of entry, not relatively, but absolutely, than the whole 90.000,000 people in the United States have. We are beset on all hand to open up new ports; and when my hon. friend talks about the $300 man. and the $200 man, and what a

hardship that low salary is, there are plenty of men in these places only too glad to take the job at the same money if the present incumbents would resign. What is a business man to do under these circumstances? There are men who would be only too glad, if they would send in their resignation, to take their job at the same money. What is a business man to do? You must conduct things on business principles.


Clarence Jameson: That is exactly what I suggested-the minister should do things in a business way, and let the committee know what the effect of this will be in dollars and cents, and number of officers affected.


William Paterson: It will not affect these men.


Clarence Jameson: But it will affect the people who have to put their hands in their pockets and pay the bills. The minister speaks of there being such a large number of ports in Canada compared with the United States. Of course there are more; we have more coast line on the Atlantic alone than the United States have on both Atlantic and Pacific. The minister knows that. But the minister does not go further and make a comparison of salaries paid. In the seaports of the maritime provinces, where we do a large amount of shipping, it is necessary to have customs ports and to have fairly capable officers in charge of them, men who are capable of discharging their duties, who will be on hand-and, so far as my information goes these officers are on hand when required. It may be that they engage in 'some other occupation; but they must confine themselves to occupations which will not take them so far away from their offices that they cannot discharge their duties with reasonable dispatch. And, when all the rest of the service are receiving increases of salaries, I draw the attention of the minister to the fact that, as I believe these men are receiving the same salaries as they have received for years. It is only right that their case should be taken under advisement, and if it is fair-as I believe it to be-that they should be given an increase, then, that increase should be provided for. And I do not think the people of this country will be in any way disposed to criticise it.


William Paterson: I am afraid I cannot promise that with reference to that class of officers.


Mr. CROSBY.: I understood the Minister of Customs, when answering a question put by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) with regard to Mr. Garrison, to intimate that there was some reason for Mr. Garrison's salary not being increased. Mr. Garrison is a very competent and able man. He went into the customs house as a very
young man, and to-day when the minister calls his collector of customs from Halifax, Mr. Garrison must take his place and take charge of the port. Halifax, I think, is the fcurth in the Dominion of Canada.


William Paterson: You are an important port, but not the fourth.


Mr CROSBY.: Perhaps the minister will tell us what position Halifax takes?


William Paterson: A very good position.
Mr. CROSBY'. It would be a good position whatever position we took. I said we were the fourth port in the Dominion, and unless the minister shows I am wrong-


Robert Laird Borden: The minister means that Halifax is in the third position.


Adam Brown Crosby: We are certainly well up on the list. But we are not well up so far as the payment of our men is concerned. Mr. Garrison has been receiving $1,500, I think, for fifteen or twenty years. I believe that Halifax occupies a higher place than two of the ports whose surveyors receive higher salaries. Not only is that the case, but last year we had more business than in any previous year, and next year we expect to have a great deal more. In fact, the day is not far distant when every passenger steamer that crosses the Atlantic between the mother land and America will be compelled by the condition of things to come to Halifax. Now, Mr. Garrison is also a comparatively young man. It is only a few months ago, when in the city of Halifax, I saw my gallant friend in his military uniform-in fact, he looked like Colonel Hughes. Therefore, there can be no question so far as his physical condition is concerned. And I know he stands in high reputation with the citizens of Halifax. It would be a sufficient recommendation for him if he stood high with the collector of customs. Our collector of customs, Mr. Mitchell, has been spoken of by the leader of the opposition. He is an excellent man and I have no hesitation in saying that the pert of Halifax is fortunate in its collector. The only thing wrong in his case is that we are not paying him enough. He is getting the same salary, I think, that the collector of customs of Halifax got at confederation or very shortly after. Before his appointment he was at the head of a very large and remunerative business. I think it was only with great peisuasion on the part of his friends that he agreed to take the position, and the citizens of Halifax were delighted when he was appointed. We claim that Ke should have a salary of $4,000. We do not ask for $4,500, because there are one or two other places that do a little more business than Halifax, and we leave the $4,500 to them. But the next man to the collector is the surveyor, and he only gets

$1,500. I see that the minister (Mr. Paterson) can hardly credit that because he is looking up to see what Mr. Garrison receives.


William Paterson: The minimum was $1,200, and he is only getting $300 over the minimum.


Adam Brown Crosby: He has been getting that a long time. I am sure that when the minister has visited Halifax he has found Mr. Garrison a man thoroughly competent for his position. It is only fair that he should receive a better salary. Other men have been referred to. I could quote a dozen appointments within the last six years of men who are receiving larger salaries than Mr. Power who has been in the custom house a long time. He went into the custom house a very young man-he seems to be a young man to-day. Living in Halifax keeps him young. And there is Mr. O'Brien whom I know well, and who is a very competent man. The Minister of Customs referred to the number of ports in the maritime provinces at which he has collectors and he also referred to the United States. Well, I may say that in the United States, even a foreign vessel coming from a foreign country, before she reaches her destination, can call at half a dozen ports, and if there is no collector she 'is not called upon to enter. In the maritime provinces a vessel cannot call at a port and remain even twenty minutes without going to the customs officer and making an entry. Consequently, when a vessel goes from one port three or four miles into another port, the captain is bound to go to the collector and report and get a clearance. Our customs laws are different in that regard from those of the United States, and if we make stringent laws in that respect we must provide some way by which these men may be accommodated. The master of a vessel entering a port is always averse to going to the customs, although he knows he has to do it. As the minister knows, it is always an inconvenience to the captain. In the United States a vessel goes into a port where there is no collector of customs and does not have to report; and even if they go into a port where there is a collector, unless they stay there over 24 hours, they are not called upon to make entry. So that in the United States the ship has greater convenience than it has in our ports. Even if a little fishing vessel goes to one of our fishing ports and spends a few hours, she has to report to the customs officer and get a clearance, and she cannot go fishing again unless she has a clearance. If the master of a vessel violates that law, she can be seized and fined up to $400. So that when the Minister of Customs complains of the number of ports, he must remember that Mr. CROSBY.
his department and his government are responsible therefor. I think it would be better to have fewer ports, and thereby give the ship some relief. The collector of customs gets twenty-five to fifty cents, as the case may be, for writing out an entry; consequently he will take good care that the ship master comes to his office, and if he does not, he can be fined. Now, the minister said that no man should be expected to confine himself wholly to customs work unless he was getting a salary of $1,000.


William Paterson: I say that is forbidden if he has $1,000 or over.


Adam Brown Crosby: That is the position I have always taken with regard to our large cities, that we should have no man working in the customs with less than $1,000 salary. There should be no man woriung in any of our large cities where the trade is Jieavy, at a less salary than $1,000 a year, i hope the time will soon come when the Minister of Customs will see his way clear to make such a rule in all the cities. As a matter of fact, no man who is working in that department could attempt to do any business outside of ms omce; n he did, the minister would be in hot water all the time with complaints coming to him about that man. .Now, with regard to the service, 1 can see no reason why the outside service, in the cities at least, should not be brought under the Civil Service Act and run the same as the inside service. If the Postmaster General and some of the other departments would do that, it would save them a great deal of trouble. All the cities can be fairly well taken in under the Civil Service Act, and it would always be possible to get efficient men for the department, after passing an examination to qualify for whatever positions might become vacant. 1 hope the Minister of Customs will turn his attention to that matter. He has a large department, and it is difficult for him to please everybody with regard to appointments. 1 have no objection to the minister taking the recommendation of his friends in a particular district, when he wants to make an appointment in the Customs Department, and I do not object to his appointing a friend of his who is well qualified in all other respects. But it is the meanest kind of a thing, it is the most contemptible thing, for any minister to hamper and harass a man who has been appointed by some other government. I think when a man enters the Civil Service he should be protected by every member of this House in his rights. He has a perfect right to vote as he pleases; as long as he does not make himself obnoxious in any way he has a right to proper treatment as

regards his salary, irrespective ot his politics.
Mr. BLA1JN. 1 would ash the minister why he does not introduce the policy oi promotion in his department. Jt'or example, I have in my mind a customs of-tice which became vacant the otner day by the death of the occupant. My hon. friend has, in the province oi Untario, many officers wTTo have had considerable experience and who would like very much to be promoted to that important place, with a very much higher salary. But the hon. gentleman instead ot adopting the policy oi promotion, takes an outside man who has no experience whatever, aifd very little qualification, puts him into this important office, and by doing that he gives no inspiration to those who are engaged in the service. They have no opportunity or expectation of promotion. Why does my hon. inend not adopt the policy oi promotion? Would it not be in the interest of the public instead of taking, shall I say, a politician, and putting him into that oi-fice, without any qualification, and over the heads of men who have devoted the best of their lives to the service of the government.


William Paterson: Does the hon. gentleman mean to take an officer who has been in the service in some other port or in the same port?


Richard Blain: In some other port, if necessary-some worthy officer.


William Paterson: I have not been able to carry it out under the present circumstances. If we were adopting the system of competition and they were proving themselves by examination and all that-


Richard Blain: Would not that be a good policy?


William Paterson: Well, there is the question; it would have its good points. I perhaps, need not say that it would probably have some opponents. The old system has been going on so long that I suppose it would be objected to, but perhaps, with respect to efficiency, if it could be worked, it would produce the effect that the hon. gentleman says. I think I will have to leave it to be worked out by my hon. friend some day.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: It would be a little bit hard on defeated candidates.
On paragraph 2: Schedule 'B' Customs,


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does that cover all the outside service or are there others in the outside service who will not receive consideration?


William Paterson: This is simply increasing the maximum as fixed by the old table that has been in existence for, I do not know how many, years. But, I would like it distinctly understood that if officers get the idea that because there is an increase of $400 proposed in one class they are going to get $400 as soon as this Act passes they are all wrong; they may not get a dollar, or they may get $50 or they^may get $100.


Robert Laird Borden: It is very misleading then.


William Paterson: They will not get it all at once, but this is to give power to the department to give an increase to a deserving officer, who is at the old maximum. He may get an advance, not of the full amount, . but of $100 or of $50.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Take the first class mentioned in the schedule:
Collectors-Salaries per annum from $300 to $4,500.
No increase. What do you mean by that? Suppose an officer is geting a salary of $600; is he not likely to get an increase? Why do you say from $300 to $4,500. If you do not propose to deal with all those between those limits?


William Paterson: This does not deal with the increase; this simply gives the power.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But you have the power already.


William Paterson: We have the power to increase the salary of a man who gets $600 now, but because we have the power to increase his salary, it does not necessarily mean that it will be increased.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the sense of taking the power to do what you have already power to do, if you desire to exercise that power?


William Paterson: There is only one reason for it; when we were changing the table with reference to senior clerks we thought it was well that the whole table, which has been in existence for a long time, should be changed and therefore we propose to deal with all classes. The great bulk of the officers who are in the service now would not require to have this table altered for their sake at all because there is plenty of latitude to give them an increase under the old table. But, in changing this item we thought it well to change the whole table so that it would not have to be changed again. I want to make that point clear, because I do not want to have the officers disappointed. It must not be imagined that because the maximum is increased so many hundreds of dollars that they are to get the full amount. It only means that the department may be at

liberty by degrees, and as the officers on their part deserve, to grant them increases in order that they may ultimately reach that point.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You want to be at liberty to do what you already have liberty to do. Are we to understand that you only intend to increase those who are at the maximum?


William Paterson: This relates to those who are at the maximum.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are those officers who are to-day receiving a salary below the maximum entitled to understand that there i3 a probability of their salaries being increased or, on the other hand can none expect to get an increase who are not already at the maximum?


William Paterson: No.


Robert Laird Borden: As I understand it the minister is not pledging himself under this proposition to increase any salary, but he is taking power to grant increases. The first class mentioned is that of collector at salaries from $300 to $4,500. Then the salaries of inspectors at ports were, minimum, $2,100 and maximum $2,500. He is now increasing that maximum to $3,200.


William Paterson: Yes, there will now be two inspectors who are at the maximum and under this we can raise them.


Robert Laird Borden: I am speaking of the minimum and maximum. Assistant inspectors $1,500 to $1,800; the minister now makes the maximum $2,000; chief clerks, $1,200 to $2,000. He now makes the maximum $2,100, and so on all through.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What about the first item?


Robert Laird Borden: In the first item there is no change at all. He has left that as it was, the second he has left as it was, and the two near the bottom of the page are left as they were before. In the others he makes some increase in the maximum salary which can be granted to these officers.


William Paterson: That is it.


Joseph Russell: I would like to ask the minister if he does not consider that a man who has been for from three to five years at the head of his class and drawing probably the maximum salary of that class should get the maximum if that maximum has been raised by $200 or $400. I believe that would be a fair way to treat these officers. Thev should hold the same position in their class after the maximum has been increased. A man who has been at the top of his class should, under the Mr. PATERSON.
new regulations, be placed at the maximum again. That is the only fair way to do it.


William Paterson: It took him some years to get to the maximum.


Joseph Russell: As the Irishman said when he complained of the landlady's cooking: 'There's raisins in everything,' and the reason given for the increase to the inside service was the high cost of living, and that is just as good a reason for increasing the pay of the outside service. These officers are entitled to a substantial increase right away. If a man is at the head of his class for say eight years as it happens in some cases, i do not think they should now be compelled to work up to the maximum when they have been kept for so many years on starvation wages. At $50 a year increase, it would take them eight years to go to the maximum.


William Paterson: That is the idea.


Joseph Russell: And it is a very bad idea. I do not think the minister should take advantage of the fact that he has more applications for positions than he can take care of, to keep down salaries to the starvation point. The minister should pay an official what would be considered a living wage on which to maintain himself and his family decently. Hope is a very cheap commodity, and while men are not satisfied with the pay they get when they enter the service still they hope that in the future they will get a decent salary.


William Paterson: I do not see myself how some of these men can live decently, and support their families on the pay they get, and we are trying to bring them up to about the same recompense they would get in other similar occupations in life. A minister cannot allow his feelings to sway him in such a matter. The hon. member (Mr. Russell) is a large employer of labour, and he pays his men well, and I have no doubt that his experience is the same as mine, and that he can get other men to work for a lower wage than he is paying his employees, but, because I thought I was paying more than-1 could get another man for, I would not allow the old employee to go. At the same time, if a business man found that when he was filling a vacancy there were fifty applications for it, and that they all were willing to work for less than he had been paying the former employee, would not that fact influence him in determining the wages that would be given? It is said that a minister should conduct the public business as he does his private business, and would the hon. gentleman (Mr. Russell) feel that he was doing justice to himself if he paid higher wages than dozens of equally competent appli-

cants were willing to take the position at? I know that if an employee of his were getting higher wages than he was absolutely certain he could get a man to do the same work for, he still would keep on the old hand, and usually business men are just and generous, and they follow that principle. But, if a vacancy occurred, the hon. gentleman would not feel it incumbent upon him to pay more wages than he was asked to pay. I think I am right in saying that there are many applications in for every vacancy as soon as the news can get out, and one cannot be insensible to that fact.


Joseph Russell: I think the government should set a good example in a case like this.


William Paterson: I think so too.


Mr. CROTHERS.: The minimum salary of a collector is $300, and the maximum $4,500; what determines whether a man shall be paid $1,000 or $4,000?


William Paterson: The maximum amount mentioned by the hon. member is paid only at Montreal, and while we may advance the Toronto collector to $4,500 yet, the collections are larger at Montreal, and the collector there has been a greater number of years in the service. The collector at Toronto may be entitled to $4,500, but I thought I would not give it to him for a year or two at any rate, because I think a distinction should be made on account of Mr. White's longer service, and the larger port at which he is collector. The port of Winnipeg, and I think the port of Vancouver will by-and-by have to be considered. Ports like Hamilton and London and Halifax and St. John, and Quebec, perhaps, are pretty nearly all on the same range. Take, St. Thomas and Chatham and Guelph and Galt, and towns of that size, and the salaries range from $1,200 to $1,600, while at Brantford and Niagara Falls it goes up to $1,800. The revenue guides us in a measure at the inland ports, but in some maritime ports we may have no revenue at all, and yet the officer has a lot of work to do in entering and clearing vessels. There are outports established for preventing smuggling and so on. We may possibly, by and by, be able to get the salaries in ports such as the hon. gentleman has in his county up to about $2,000, but there is no maximum fixed. The department try to do justice between one port and another and are guided by the revenue, &c.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: There is no fixed principle on which salaries are determined?


William Paterson: No.


Thomas Wilson Crothers: The collector in my city, St. Thomas, receives a salary of 276
$1,600. The revenue there is now $300,000, and there are a number of outports. I think a man with the responsibility of handling that amount ought to get a larger salary than $1,600.*


William Paterson: If thi3 is allowed to pass, these questions, which are quite proper, can be answered when my estimates are up, and my deputy is here.


Mr. DOHERTY.: I was slightly disappointed with these figures. Last year I made some observations with regard to the salary of the collector at the nort of Montreal, and I quite acknowledge that there was an increase of $500, although I do not pretend that this was in consequence of my remarks. The minister, by this resolution, is tying himself up so that for a long time to _come he cannot increase that salary above the present figure. I understood last year that the minister felt that the_ increase he was making in the salary of the collector at Montreal hardly adequately met the case. I do not wish to repeat what I said last year about the importance of Montreal and its immense business and revenue. It must be, remembered that previous to this increase the salary had stood at $4,000 for a long period of years during which all the expenses of living had increased in a very great degree. I think I am not being importunate in urging upon the minister that the increase of $500 hardly met the requirements of the case. The increased cost of living is not felt more keenly in any place than in Montreal, and the officer having the responsibility of handling the immense business at that port should be in receipt of a salary that would not be so utterly, and absolutely disproportionate to the salaries received by men in charge of large businesses, which would still be small when compared with the business to be supervised and controlled by the collector of customs. I need say nothing of the qualifications of the present incumbent, they are well known, and fully recognized, and I must add that what I am now saying, I say absolutely without any communication from him. I urge on the minister that the present salary of the collector at Montreal is utterly inadequate even to-day, and as this resolution will bind the department probably until a longer period of time than the lifetime of the present incumbent, I beg to respectfully urge on the minister the desirability of reconsidering this maximum amount which a collector may receive. I am sure that in this request I would be endorsed by the business community of Montreal generally without party distinction, and by hon. members of this House representing divisions in Montreal, or that neighbourhood. I understood the minister last year to say that the increase then given



*was the best that could be done for the moment, but that he did not take the position that that settled as a finality the proper remuneration of the office of collector of customs at Montreal. This is a glaring case of remuneration quite inadequate to the service rendered and out of all proportion to the office, and to its grave responsibilities. I certainly would be glad if the minister could see his way, if not to -an immediate increase, at least to reconsider his decision to tie himself up so as to make it impossible for a long time to increase this very inadequate salary.


Mr. GERVAIS.: I think I am in duty bound to endorse the remarks of the hon. member for St. Anne (Mr. Doherty), as to the salary which is proposed to be paid to the collector of customs at Montreal. The importance of that port cannot be compared with any other port, and the efficiency of the services of the present incumbent is too well known for me to venture .to add anything to what has been said of the character of the work which has been performed for years past by the present incumbent. On account of the importance of the port of Montreal, on account of the efficiency of the service which has been done, and which is being done by Mr. White, the present incumbent, and on account of the cost of living in Montreal, I think that a salary of $6,000 should be considered the least which should be paid to the present collector. It is all very well to Propose general rules and general schedules of salaries for all over the country, but I think that the case of the port of Montreal is a very exceptional one, and the general schedule should not be made applicable to that port. There should be a proviso added to the resolution under which by way of order in council, the government could, after due consideration, in some way increase the remuneration of the present collector of customs at Montreal to at least $6,000. This view is held by all the people of Montreal, especially by the large importers. It is well known that the imports entered at the port of Montreal exceed $16,000,000 per year, which certainly warrants our paying a salary to the collector of that port of at least $6,000.
On that question, I would ask the Minister of Customs if he intends this session introducing legislation for the purpose of creating the office of deputy or assistant-collector. The creation of such an office has been asked for by quite a number of the large importers of Montreal, and it would go a long way to expedite the business of the port, and meet the convenience of the city. I think that a petition was sent to the Department of Customs asking the minister to create such an office, and I would like to know if he proposes doing so this Mr. DOHERTY.
session. I would again urge on the hon. minister to add another resolution to those proposed which would enable the government by order in council to grant to the collector of customs in the port of Montreal a salary somewhat adequate to the important position he holds, the efficient service he is rendering, and the increased cost of living. Such increase, I am sure, would prove to be fair and popular.


William Paterson: As regards an assistant-collector, I am not disposed to regard with favour the proposal to establish such an office, and do not intend doing anything in that respect this year. As regards the collectorship the difficulty is this. I have nothing but words of commendation for Mr. White, the collector of customs at Montreal, and I heartily endorse everything that has been said in his favour. His record stands well with the department. In his conduct of the public business, the geniality with which he meets customers, and his ability in other respects make him a very efficient officer indeed, I think he has some of the most valuable traits a customs officer should have, and personally I would have no objection to making his salary larger. But there is one objection which seems to me insuperable. The commissioner of customs, who has to do with all the ports of the Dominion, Montreal included, gets $5,000. and I cannot see my way clear to put one whose work has to be supervised by the commissioner on an equal plane with the deputy head of the department. If the deputy head of the department were receiving a higher salary, that difficulty would largely vanish. It may not strike my hon. friend as important, but it does me. I do not feel that I could recommend the placing of any individual officer of any one port, however important-and Montreal is a very important port-on a par, so far as remuneration goes, with the commissioner who is responsible for the administration of the Customs Department throughout the Dominion.


Charles Joseph Doherty: That only goes to show that the salary of the commissioner ought to be increased.


William Paterson: But I cannot do that.


Charles Joseph Doherty: If we are to assume that the commissioner of customs is to be paid more than any collector-and the minister apparently admits that the collector of customs at Montreal ought to have a great deal more than he is now getting


William Paterson: I do not admit that now.


Charles Joseph Doherty: Well, the minister says that the one insurmountable obstacle is the fact that the commissioner is only getting

$5,000. We must conclude that if that obstacle were out of the way, the collector of customs at Montreal would be given a larger salary. If the minister's reason be well founded, that the commissioner of customs necessarily should be paid more than any collector


William Paterson: Do you not think he should?


Charles Joseph Doherty: That is a reasonable proposition, but it only follows that we ought to begin by increasing the commissioner's salary. It is not logical to say that you cannot raise the salary of the collector of customs at Montreal simply because you must keep it under what the commissioner gets. The reasonable way to remedy the situation would be to give the commissioner of customs what he ought to get.


William Paterson: But I have not the power to put that in here.


Charles Joseph Doherty: Possibly, but there are other ways in which that can be done. We are getting supplementaries every day or two.


William Paterson: In the different departments there are more deputy ministers than one.


Charles Joseph Doherty: In some departments there are deputies who get more than $5,000 per year.


William Paterson: Only technical officers.


Charles Joseph Doherty: 
Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais: I desire to call the attention of the Minister of Customs to the lew salary proposed to be paid to the appraisers. The increase of salaries to the appraisers is proposed to be made $4Q0 per year. I think the appraisers for the port of Montreal should have a salary of at least $3,500. If I had time to quote from the statistics of American ports. I should be able to show that ports of less importance in the United States of no greater importance than Montreal have collectors who receive salaries as high as $10,000 a year, and some of these American ports have appraisers whose salaries are as high as $6,000 per year. I repeat, then, that the salaries of the appraisers of the port of Montreal should be made at least $3,500.
At six o'clock, committee took Tecess.

'	After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Mr. SfKOULfci. wnat X desired to ascertain was how far this measure was bringing the outside service under the Civil Service Act.


William Paterson: Not at all.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But it does. We have here introduced the schedule system to regulate salaries, then there would be increases following that system, and the clerks would be entitled to superannuation. Under part of the schedules we provide for an increase trom the minimum to the maximum, the same as under the Civil Service Act. Then you provide that a person who has served over three years as clerk in the outside service may be brought into the inside service after passing the departmental examination, and then he must be entirely under the Civil service Act. Will it attect their superannuation, or will It provide them a graded increase ot salary?


William Paterson: The hon. gentleman will remember that there is tne old civil Service Act, and there was an amendment to that. This is an amendment to the old Civil Service Act, it is not an amendment to the amendment of the Civil Service Act, under which outsiders were brought in. This does not change their position in the least, except as regards tne schedule which was in the old Act. That we are amending, and we are increasing the maximum in the table that was in section 39 of the old Act. That is the only change.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Under the old Act they could come in without passing a qualifying examination.


William Paterson: This is no step at all in the direction ot bringing them into the inside service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: When they come in under this Act, is there any annual increase to which they are entitled?


William Paterson: No.
Resolution reported, read the second time, and agreed to.
Mr. PATEKSON moved tor leave to introduce Kill (No. 208) to amend the civil Service Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
House again in committee on Bill (No. 153) to amend the Inspection and Sale Act Mr. GERVAIS
as regards the weight ot a bushel and a bag of certain articles.-Mr. Fisher.
Sydney Arthur Fisher: W'hen this Bill was before the committee the other day, l was asked who recommended these weights. 1 find they u'ere recommended by two organizations in the province of Quebec, and in the province of Ontario, which are composed of vegetable growers. The weights have been examined by the officers of the experimental farm, and have been reported upon as the correct weights for the articles mentioned in the Bill.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The only change i3 in regard to potatoes.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, 80 lbs. was the weight in the province of Quebec, and this makes it general throughout the Dominion. In Ontario the practice has been 90 lbs., but there has been no law fixing it at 90 lbs.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What means will the minister take to acquaint the people oi Ontario of the change?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I will see that it is published in the agricultural papers generally.
Mr- BLAIN. Has there been any general request from the province of Ontario for this rather drastic change? The minister says that it has been asked for by certain organizations. I may point out that this will make a great change, and I cannot see what advantage it will bring either to the buyer or the seller. For many years it has been the custom in Ontario to buy and sell a bag of potatoes at 90 pounds. Perhaps the minister will say that it is desirable there should be uniformity. I am not so sure that they would support so drastic a change. I am not sure that if it were submitted to the agricultural societies the minister would receive their sanction generally.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not think the farmers would object to selling 80 pounds for a bag of potatoes instead of 90 pounds.


Richard Blain: I think they would. Men have grown up to do business in potatoes with 90 pounds to the bushel. That is the general custom, and when the hon. gentleman introduces a measure to change that to 80 pounds, it will create a good deal of confusion. In the first place, almost all the bags used by the farmers in every part of the province are made to hold 90 pounds. In future they will have to take a 90-pound bag and put 80 pounds of potatoes into it. It is a very great disadvantage to the farmer and no advantage to any class of people that I know of. I am quite confident that if the minister will consult his friends and the people of Ontario they will not endorse a proposition of this kind. I would like to
MAY 10, 19n
enter a protest, mild as it may be, against the very drastic change that will be introduced by the passage of this measure into the potato market in Ontario. I do not think that the suggestion that because it is 80 pounds in Quebec it should, therefore, be 80 pounds in Ontario, will be sufficient for the farmers in the latter province. It will make a very Unsatisfactory condition of things if after a custom has grown up extending over half a dozen generations it is suddenly changed without any very strong demand for it. There may be some reason for changing it other than the reasons that are mentioned, but I do not think my hon. friend will find any class of farmers or those interested in the potato business in Ontario who would consent to so great a change that will cause the greatest inconvenience to the people of that province.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think it is distinctly a mistake to change it to 80 pounds, because all over the country a bag of potatoes is a bushel and a half, and a bushel of potatoes is 60 pounds. A bushej of potatoes here is stated to be 60 pounds. What is understood by Dominion standard pounds?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I think there is a Dominion standard pound in the Weights and Measures Act.


Mr. WILSON (Lennox and Addington).: I quite agree with the minister that the weight of a bag of potatoes should be the same in every province, but I remember that when the change was made to 80 pounds in the province of Quebec, it was to accommodate certain dealers and farmers around the city of Montreal. I see no reason why the weight should now be changed all over Canada to 80 pounds. I do not know how you will fix the number of pounds to the bushel. A bag of potatoes in our province has always been understood to be a bushel and a half-that is 90 pounds-and while the minister is anxious to make the weight of a bag of potatoes the same throughout the whole country, I think he should adopt the standard as 90 pounds.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: This Bill has been prepared by the Department of Trade and Commerce, and I shall be glad to allow the committee to rise in order that I may consult my colleague, and see if he approves of that suggestion.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I had an opportunity of going with the deputation that was here in connection with this matter, representing the vegetable growers and fruit growers, not only of Quebec, but of Ontario as well, and I listened to their arguments before the minister. There was a representative of the association from my own county. Their argument was that in the city of Toronto,
for instance, potatoes were sold by people who put them into smaller bags, and disposed of practically 70 pounds of potatoes as a bag. Thus they were able to undersell the legitimate dealers in potatoes who were selling 80 or 90 pounds to the bag. They suggested to the minister that he should make it uniform with the province of Quebec in order that the public would not be deceived, and that there would be a standard weight for a bag of potatoes, so that the consumer would know, in buying a bag of potatoes, that he was entitled to get 80 pounds.


Mr. KIDD.: I quite agree with my hon. friend from Peel (Mr. Blain), that it would be a great inconvenience to change the weight of a bag of potatoes from 90 pounds to 80 pounds. Sixty pounds to the bushel has been a standard measure, I suppose, ever since we commenced to handle potatoes in Canada. I think it would be very much better if in the province of Quebec the standard were made 60 pounds to the bushel or 90 pounds to the bag, or even to provide that potatoes shall be handled by the hundred pounds. I think that to adopt a standard of 80 pounds to the bag would cause inconvenience. If it were made 80 pounds to the bag, there being 60 pounds to the bushel, how could you be sure that you were putting the specified weight into [DOT] the bag, because you would have to get it down to the proper number of pounds?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It would be a bushel and a third.


Edward Kidd: Yes, a bushel and a third.
I think it would be better to change the standard in Quebec to 90 pounds, and make it equal all over the country. It would be a great convenience to have a standard bag of potatoes all over the Dominion as it would also be to have a standard bag of oats. It would be better to have it 34 or 32 pounds to the bushel throughout the whole country.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is no standard weight in Ontario, or anywhere else except in Quebec. A man might sell a bag of potatoes, and sell any quantity he chose.


Edward Kidd: What does the minister mean by saying there is no standard in Ontario?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is no standard in Ontario, or anywhere else except Quebec.


Edward Kidd: If you sell a bag of potatoes containing 80 pounds in Ottawa you will find that there is a standard before you get away. You would find the market inspector after you, and he would take the potatoes and you along with them.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is the practice. I do not know what the law courts would say, but there is no standard.


Richard Blain: My understanding is that originally 90 pounds was the standard whether by law or practice or custom. Certain representations were made to the government some years ago and a change was made for the province of Quebec. I have nothing to say about that; possibly it was a good thing then. The complaint comes now, not from Quebec alone, but from Ontario, that there is no uniform bag. There is now an interchange of products between Quebec and Ontario. Quebec potatoes find a market in Toronto, for example, and I can understood that it is not in the best interests of either the buyer or seller that potatoes coming from Quebec should be a bag of 80 pounds and coming from Ontario a bag of 90 pounds. But I do say that the original practice was to sell 90 pounds to the bag of potatoes and if a change was made reducing it to 80 pounds for one province it does not occur to me that it would be very much in the interest of the people, particularly the province of Ontario, that 80 pounds should be adopted for the rest of the country. I repeat


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not seem to be able to give my hon. friend to understand that there was no standard weight in Ontario. A bag of potatoes in Quebec was 80 pounds by law, and there was no law with regard to a bag of potatoes in any other part of Canada.


Richard Blain: When was it made 80 pounds by law?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It was made 80 pounds by law in Quebec by Edward VII, chapter 26, section 1. That would be in 1901, I think.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I think there must be something wrong about that, because my impression is that the provincial authorities have the right to make a law, and that such a law has been in existence for a long time. Why, I say that is because I remember very well many years ago I was in Toronto with a neighbour who was selling potatoes. They were weighed and sold by the bag. The total weight was divided by 90 to get the number of bags. At the same time there were potatoes sold by the bag that were not weighed at the time, but afterwards they were found to contain less than 90 pounds. My recollection is that ho threatened to lodge a complaint before the police magistrate, and the party was obliged to settle up. If there was no law I do not see how he could prosecute. Whether it was law or custom it was the common practice for the municipal authorities to make market regulations.


Mr. NESBITT.: All are agreed that the weight of the bag should be uniform, but all are not agreed that it should be eighty lbs. I have dealt in potatoes a great deal Mr. FISHER.
in my time, and there was no law that I know of governing the weight of a bag of potatoes, although in buying large quantities of potatoes by the bag we always specified that they should be taken at 90 lbs. to the bag. That was the custom when I was in the business, and the reason we did that was that we bought from various provinces. I do not see that any harm can be done by making the weight of a bag of potatoes 80 lbs. because the people will soon get accustomed to it. As a matter of fact, we do not as a rule weigh potatoes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In my part of the country everybody weighs the potatoes.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: In taking them into stores in Ontario they weigh them and estimate them at 90 lb's., but a great many potatoes are delivered direct by the farthers to the houses of the people, and not once in a thousand times are they weighed.


Richard Blain: Each bag contains a bushel and a half.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: It is supposed to, but they are mighty short for a bushel and a half. Sometimes if you make the weight 80 pounds uniformly, the people will soon get accustomed to it, and there will be no trouble.


Richard Blain: What reasons would the hon. gentleman give in the interests of the people of Ontario that such a change should be made?


Edward Walter Nesbitt: None, except the advantage of uniformity.


Richard Blain: Why not make it uniform the other way?


Edward Walter Nesbitt: I have been buying seed potatoes this year by the hundred weight, so that it is not absolutely the custom to buy potatoes by the bag in Ontario.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The reason for making the standard 90 lbs. is simply that two one-half bushels of ordinary potatoes will weigh 60 lbs., and, as the ordinary two-bushel grain bag will hold a bushel and a half of potatoes, that made 90 lbs., and it became the standard. It is not the part of wisdom to change the custom of half a century unless there is strong reason for it. There is no more reason why Ontario should be made to conform to the Quebec custom than that we should ask Quebec to conform to the Ontario custom.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I do not know that the vegetable growers 'are insistent on the weight being 80 lbs., but what they want is a uniform weight. I would point out that a bushel of measured potatoes at this time of the year will not weigh as much

as a bushel of the same potatoes would last fall. The proper course is to make a uniform standard weight throughout the country whether it be 80 lbs. or 90 l'hs. In listening to the argument of the vegetable growers before the Minister of Trade and Commerce, I thought their demand was reasonable for a uniform weight- for a bag of potatoes, and not so much in their own interest as in the interest of the public, because notwithstanding what the .hon. member (Mr. Sproule) says they stated that in Toronto and other places potatoes were sold by the bag at less than 80 lbs. I do not believe there is any law governing it.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I should doubt that very much.


Mr. TALBOT.: The fewer changes we make the better, because changes always lead to confusion. At one time in the province of Quebec, we had a bushel measure, and at another time we had a barrel which was supposed to be three bushels. That was the barrel measure that we interfered with. The barrels have since been made straighter and contain less. Now this bag proposition is made to us. We have no such a thing as a one-third bushel measure, we either have a bushel or a quarter or a half, and that is understood by everybody. We use a bag that is supposed to hold 90 lbs., whether it will hold 90 lbs. or not, that is the kind of bag that will be used. I think, therefore, that on all accounts it is better to leave the present system alone. At present a bag is supposed to hold a bushel and a half and to weigh 90 lbs.; leave it as it is.


Mr. EDWARDS.: The minister has spoken positively with regard to there being no law in the province of Ontario fixing a standard weight for a bag of potatoes. I do know, however, that in the city of Kingston potatoes are marketed by the bag, and a bag is supposed to contain a bushel and a half, and to weigh 90 pounds. The market clerk has the right, and has exercised the right, of seizing from the farmers any bags which are supposed to be short of weight, weighing them, confiscating them, and bringing the farmer before the magistrate and having him fined. Now, if there is no law in the province of Ontario fixing the standard weight at 90 pounds, it seems strange that the market clerk should exercise that authority. It may be possible that the general statute gives to municipal corporations the right to pass bv-laws governing the weight of potatoes sold in their respective markets. I have always understood that the weight is governed by a general provincial law; the minister says that is not the case.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: What I said was that there was no standard fixed by federal law. I think what the hon. gentleman says there is perfectly correct; it may be that municipalities have the power to pass regulations for their own markets, and, therefore, to fix a weight. I said there was no federal law, and under the Inspection and Sale Act there is no standard of weight for a bag of potatoes except in the province of Ontario.


William Cameron Edwards: I am under the impression that there is a law in the province of Ontario fixing the weight of a bag of potatoes at 90 pounds. I can see that it would be a nice thing to have a uniform standard for the whole Dominion. But I think if the weight is changed from 90 to 80 pounds it will cause a great deal of confusion and inconvenience in the province of Ontario. There is another thing that strikes me. Suppose you fix the weight at 80 pounds. People have been accustomed to look upon a bag of potatoes as containing a bushel and a half, and in a bushel and a half there are six pecks. Now six pecks divides readily in 90 pounds, giving 15 pounds to a peck, and merchants who frequently sell potatoes by the peck would be put to inconvenience if the weight was changed to 80 pounds to the bag.


George Taylor: Now that the minister has fixed a standard weight for all the articles mentioned in the Bill, and in section 2 has fixed a standard for potatoes sold by the bag, I would suggest that he -amend section 2 to read as follows:
Any article mentioned in this subsection, if sold by the bag, shall contain one and a half bushels of the standard weight of the article.
Then people will know what they are doing.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is a reasonable proposition, but I would not like to accept it without consulting with the officers of the department. I move that the committee rise and report progress.
Progress reported.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply.
Civil Government-Privy Council office-to provide for one clerkship, second division, subdivision A, $1,600.
["My colleague the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) will take up railway resolutions.\nOn motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, House adjourned at 12 o'clock, midnight.", '\nThursday, May 11, 1911.']
Wilfrid Laurier: The explanation for this addition to the number of clerks in the Privy Council is found in a letter from Mr. Parmelee, the King's Printer, to Mr. Boudreau, Clerk of the Privy Council. It is dated March 22, 1911:
Dear Mr. Boudreau,-The experts who were called upon to investigate conditions at the

Bureau have laid great emphasis upon the abuses prevalent in connection with the translating of copy for the printers. They point out that the Bureau has for many years gone beyond the scope of its duties in employing its own proof readers to do translating and to make corrections in connection with translated copy, and for this work the proof readers receive extra pay in addition to their regular salaries.
Speaking of the difficulties created for the Bureau by differences of opinion as to correct translation the experts state as follows:- ' Whole sentences are recast after the matter has been put into type for no better reason than that in the opinion of the changer, they are more suitable translations than were given in the original manuscript. It is safe to say that the composition of the publications translated into French cost twice as much at it would were it properly translated and legible copy furnished/
A full report of the conditions in this connection, by the experts, will be found in the report submitted to His Excellency the Governor General in Council, by the Hon. Mr. Murphy, page 27 and appendices C and D following, and- I shall be grateful if you will do me the favour of reading these sections of the report in order that you may be fully impressed as to the abuses therein indicated.
Upon this Mr. Boudreau sent the following meimo:
Memo, for the president of the Privy Council.
The King's Printer, in a letter dated the 22nd of March inst. with reference to the translation of orders in council published in the official ' Gazette ' says that he is ' directed to state that in the light of the report of experts, his department will no longer assume responsibility for errors in translated copy, and that hereafter no translating of any kind will be done at the Bureau.'
Every week an average of about 15 columns of the ' Official Gazette ' will have to be translated by the Privy Council office, which would require the services of a well qualified translator.
The Clerk of the Privy Council could not undertake to do the work himself as he is often absent on official business. There is no other clerk in the office who could do the work. Consequently it would be advisable to create a i>osition in class A of the second division.
Eespectfullv submitted,
RODOLPHE BOUDREAU, Clerk of the Privy Council.
Ottawa, 24th March, 1911.
Upon the following recommendation made by myself to the Privy Council, an order was passed:
The undersigned has the honour to recommend that the	of the Privy
Council office as fixed by order in council of the 25th January, 1909, be further amended to add an additional clerkship to subdivision A of the second division, provision to be made by parliament at this present session.
This recommendation was approved and this was the reason for this item.


Wilfrid Laurier: 


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is for the whole year, of course?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: This is one of the items the right hon. gentleman mentioned: this afternoon as requiring to be voted for the whole year?


Wilfrid Laurier: No, that is not one.
Royal Northwest Mounted Police-Coronation contingent-required to meet the transportation and other expenses of the R. N. W. M. Police, $30,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is to provide for a contingent of 75 men and horses at $400 per head.
Steam service between Annapolis and London or Hull, England, or both, $5,000.


Mr. LENNOX.: -I runidensliood- from a statement which I heard the leader of the opposition make at six o'clock that the understanding between the right- hon. gentleman and him was that only -such items as were mentioned this afternoon would be submitted to the committee to-night. On account of a ball at Government House there is a very -slim attendance -here, and the impression this afternoon was that we would only sit until about nine o'clock.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That was my understanding. The right hon. gentlemajj mentioned certain items which required to be granted in toto, and said that only a proportionate amount of the others would be voted.


Wilfrid Laurier: I said this afternoon that I had an understanding with my hon. friend on the opposite side that the estimates should be advanced. The question was how much. It was understood that certain items would be voted in full and that the others would be voted to at least one-third of their amount. We have received already two-twelfths. My impression was that if, on the 23rd the estimates had not been passed, of what remained, we should get three-twelfths to carry us to the 1st of September. Whether we take the 'whole or three-twelfths does not matter much to me. Ifut I said that, in any event, some estimates would have to be passed entirely or we could not carry on the business of the country. For instance, the payment of the treaty Indians. We have to start parties north very soon and the Indians must be paid the whole of their indemnity. The coronation contingent must be paid1 the whole of their indemnity. The full amount for the Festival of Empire must be paid. Whether my understanding of the arrangement is correct or not is of little moment to me -at the present time. The Minister of Trade and Com-

merce is not in this House, and he has entrusted me with carrying his estimates. This is the only time I can give to explanation for the committee so as to have these passed.


Haughton Lennox: The First Minister has gone far beyond what I mentioned. With a great deal of what he has said I can entirely concur. I mentioned that 1 had overheard, as I passed, my leader make a statement from which I understood that, so far as to-night is concerned, the Prime Minister would not wish to take up any items except those mentioned that would have to be passed in toto. I called attention to this as we were asked to take up the estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce. As to the broader question what we should do between this and the 23rd, I was not at all referring to. But I may say that if 1 thought we were going through the estimates generally to-night I would probably have brought up the matter we were speaking of yesterday. But I understood the Prime Minister wanted to go on with some things before going away and i did not wish to block him. But i do not need to deal with that matter, as my leader (Mr. Borden, Halifax) is here and he will know what to do.


Robert Laird Borden: 1 think the Prime Minister is right in his understanding of what the general programme is to be. We are to give one-fourth, or three months' supply to September i. But between now and the day of adjournment we are to go on with Supply, and with the business of the House as usual. I quite agree with that understanding. So far as the business to-night is concerned, there may be a little misapprehension-not between the Prime Minister and myself, but between myself and my hon. friends on this side-who thought that other items were to be taken up. I do not think that the hon. member from North Toronto (Air. Foster), expected that the items of trade and commerce would be taken up to-night. However, we might do something at it, for a while anyway.


Wilfrid Laurier: I have been wanting for two or three days to take up the trade and commerce estimates, because I have been charged with it by my colleague, the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I would not take the Mouse by surprise, and if there were objections l would not press the matter. But if I might, 1 would like to reserve any points for further consideration later on.
Steam service between Annapolis and London or Hull, England, or both, $5,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This and succeeding items, down to and including 231, involve nothing new except m one or possibly two cases. The others are as they have been for some years past. Therefore,
1 do not think they are contentious matters at all. In the item:
Steam service between Bonaventure river, Quebec, Petit Rocher and Bathurst, N.B., triweekly, during the season of 1911, $5,000.
There has been an increase of $2,000. The reason is that we have not been able to keep the service alive for the lormer subsidy of $3,000. The next is:
Steam service between Canada and Australia on the Pacific ocean, $180,509.
The most important item of change is here. 1 move that, instead of reading as it does now, it should read:
Steam service between Canada and New Zealand or Australia or both.
The reason is that we are not able to make any agreement yet with Australia m regard to this subsidy. We have made a contract with New Zealand, that Dominion contributing an amount in proportion to our own. We expect that Australia will come in later. As 1 said, 1 do not think any of these items are contentious.


Robert Laird Borden: The first item is for steam service between Annapolis and English ports. That, I understand, is the continuation of an existing service; how frequent in the service?
Kir W1LFK1D LAUKiisK. me contractor for this service is the Acadia Steamship Company, Annapolis Royal. The steamships are: ' The Atlantis,' 704 tons net, 1.170 tons gross, ten knots ; ' The Kat-inka,' 702 tons net, 1,162 gross, ten knots; ' The Katie,' 034 tons net, l,U5h* gross, twelve knots; ' The Ada,' 639 tons net, 1,100 gross, ten knots. The contract calls for live voyages, $1,000 for each voyage.


Adam Brown Crosby: Who receives this subsidy?


Wilfrid Laurier: The Acadia Steamship Company. The boats l nave just mentioned-' The Atlantis,' 'The Kat-inka,' ' The Katie,' and the 'Ada.'


Air.   CKUSBA@: Are they British boats?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.
Air. BORDEN (Halifax}. Is there any contro'i over the rates lor freight?


Wilfrid Laurier: Under all these subsidy contracts we have control ot rates

Mr. (JKOSJtJY. Who are the directors ot this company?


Wilfrid Laurier: I am sure l do not know. 1 have not that information at hand.


Frederick William Borden: 1 suppose these boats are not htted up with cold storage accommodation.


Wilfrid Laurier: They have cooled air ventilation and fruit decks.


Robert Laird Borden: Has the service been satisfactory?


Wilfrid Laurier: 1 understand it has been fairly so. It has not been as frequent as it might have been.


Robert Laird Borden: Have there been any complaints of the conditions ot cargo landed on the other side?


Wilfrid Laurier: les,' occasionally.
ffir. BORDEN (Halifax). Have they been investigated?


Wilfrid Laurier: Always.


Frederick William Borden: wnn wnat results?


Wilfrid Laurier: Sometimes it has been found that the fault was with the company, and sometimes with tne snippers themselves-the fruit not very good when shipped. But the service has been fairly well performed.


Adam Brown Crosby: It seems to me strange that we should grant a subsidy to a company of which we do not know even the president, or the directors. It also seems to me strange to grant a subsidy to a steamship company to go to Annapolis and load apples when we have at the same time a company running from Halifax to the same port to which we grant a subsidy. I can see no reason for granting a further subsidy. [I am not conversant with the boats just mentioned, but I think we ought to have time to see whether these boats are British or Norwegian boats. We know that subsidies are being paid to foreign boats running from Canadian ports to the West Indies. Therefore, I say we should be careful, before we grant subsidies, to know something about the company, and something about the boats. The boats referred to as having a subsidy, from the city of Halifax particularly for this trade, are boats of the Furness Line, but the boats of that line are all British boats. That subsidy is granted to assist this particular trade, and amounts to $25,000 a year. I think that boats can be had to carry apples from Annapolis to the other side without any subsidy at all. I think Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
a subsidy granted to a line running from St. John to the West Indies which I do not think was very successful, and that subsidy was largely given to a Norwegian boat.


Wilfrid Laurier: I dissent altogether from the statement that we have given a subsidy to Norwegian boats. We do not pay any subsidies except to British boats, no subsidy is given to any boats except they are on the British register. With regard to the directors of the company, I have the contract in the office, and it is easy to get the information the hon. gentleman (Mr. Crosby) asks for. But the question is not who the directors are, but whether the service is well performed, and if it is well performed, it is of no consequence who the directors of the company are. This subsidy is not a large one, the boats only make five trips in the autumn, and the object is to ship the apple crop of the Annapolis valley. I think that object is one which commends itself to the judgment of parliament.


Mr. BLACK.: The shipping of apples from the port of Annapolis is one of great moment to the people of the whole of that valley. Halifax is situated quite a distance from the fruit belt, and the haul to Halifax is a long one for Nova Scotia. Annapolis is right in the fruit belt, and the difference in freight means a good deal to the apple raisers. There is about 125 miles of a haul from Annapolis to Halifax, while the quantity of fruit produced near Annapolis, with a verv short haul, will load a steamer. It is of great moment to the fruit growers that their apples should be shipped direct from the port of Annapolis rather than from Halifax, after making a long haul.


William Cameron Edwards: The First Minister stated in regard to this line that the government had control of the rates. Am I right in assuming that that control applies to all lines to which subsidies are granted?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


William Cameron Edwards: Does that control of rates apply only to goods going from Canada, or doea it also apply to goods coming in?


Wilfrid Laurier: It is chiefly on the export traffic.


Adam Brown Crosby: The First Minister stated that it did noli make much difference who the companies were.


Wilfrid Laurier: Who the directors were.


Adam Brown Crosby: The only way to get at a company is to know the directors. The only way to indentify a company is through their board of management. I should think

it very essential for parliament to know to whom we are granting this money. We want to know what the character of the company is, and whether this company has a line of boats or not. My own idea is that you are handling this money over to some so-called company, and that, that so-called company charter a boat to go to Annapolis and load a cargo of fruit. They charter that boat whenever they have a cargo of fruit ready for it. The right hon. Prime Minister shakes his head; if he can give me some information on that point I will be very glad.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, The names of the vessels that are to carry the fruit are mentioned in the contract. This contract has been made with the Acadia Steamship Company of Annapolis Royal.
I do not know the board of directors, but I have a statement in my hand that in the contract the company bind themselves to carry out its terms, and to ship these fruits by the steamships ' Atlantis,' ' Katinka,'
' Katie,' and ' Ada.' The boats are not merely hired for this purpose; the names of the boats are mentioned in the contract itself.


Adam Brown Crosby: I do not know' anything of the Acadia Steamship Company of Annapolis. I have sent for Lloyd's Register, and we will be able to ascertain in a short time whether they have any such boats or not. But, in the meantime, I will undertake to say, from my knowledge of shipping, that the Acadia Steamship Company of Annapolis do not own any such boats, and I do not know any company which does own any boat which can bo used for the transportation of apples from Annapolis to the old country. Therefore, the company must charter boats to go and make a trip at certain seasons of the year when boats are available for that work. This money can only be handed over to a company, calling themselves by what name they may, and if we hand it over to them we ought to know to whom we are handing it over even if we do not follow the money any further. The hon. Minister of Militia and Defence (Sir Frederick Borden), who is right beside the First Minister, must know the Acadian Steamship Company of Annapolis. I have some men in my mind. For instance there is Mr. Chase who is a large exporter of apples and potatoes from that country. If you could say that Mr. Chase is at the head of any such company I would say it was all right because I know Mr. Chase as everybody does. But not knowing the names of any of the men associated with this company, we are simply voting money when we do not know exactly for what purpose it is going to be used. It may be done with all good intentions.


Wilfrid Laurier: We do not pay the money in a lump sum, but we pay $1,000 a trip. The money is paid only when the conditions of the contract have been fulfilled. It is only paid when it is earned; each trip.	-


Adam Brown Crosby: If the First Minister would grant me $5,000 or $1,000 a trip I would be very glad to supply steamers to carry these products to the old country.


Wilfrid Laurier: We will do that.


Adam Brown Crosby: Then we had better arrange so that I can get that $5,000. I do not know that I am particularly anxious to have it. But, we should know who is going to get this money. To whom did you pay it last year? There must be some man who received this money, and gave a receipt for it. If you give us the name of somebody who got it last year we will have somebody to talk to.


Frederick William Borden: The principal thing we should be anxious about is as to whether this service is a deserving one, whether the people who are performing it are earning the money and whether it is in the public interest. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Crosby) has referred to me. I know there is such a company. I think that one of the men interested in it is Mr. Whitman of Annapolis, and the company is duly chartered. Mr. Whitman is one of the most respectable business men in Nova Scotia, if he is interested, and I think he is. The people in the western part of the Annapolis valley are very much interested in this service. It is beneficial to them. I cannot understand why my hon. friend is so strongly opposed to the people of western Nova Scotia getting some benefit from it.


Adam Brown Crosby: I am not opposing this; I am asking for information, and I think I have a right to ask for it. If we are going to give $5,000 to somebody, certainly we ought to know who is going to get it.


Frederick William Borden: Then he is supporting the vote, not opposing it?


Adam Brown Crosby: I do not think that my hon. friend should be permitted to say that I am opposing it. I certainly did make inquiry with regard to it. But, it is not necessary


Frederick William Borden: I do not
know why I should be interrupted. I never interrupted the hon. gentleman.


Adam Brown Crosby: All right, Sir, you may have the floor, but I will be after you in a moment.


Frederick William Borden: I believe
this service is in the interest of the people

of the Annapolis valley. I believe that the money paid is earned, and I wish to say that not a dollar of it is paid until it is earned. A contract has been made, that contract is open to tender and it is open to other companies, if they wish to perform this service, to put in tenders. I cannot quite understand why this item should be opposed.


Adam Brown Crosby: I am neither supporting nor opposing it. I believe in subsidies if they are in the right direction, and if the results are such as to benefit the trade of the country. I see the hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Pickup) here; he certainly must know who is behind this steamship company. I hold in my hand Lloyd's Register of shipping which has all the ship owners of the world in it. I will hand it over to my hon. friend, and see if he can find this company registered or if he can find them registered as owning any steamers. As a matter of fact I know they do not own any steamers, and I am saying that in the presence of the Minister or Militia, and the representative of the county of Annapolis, and I say without fear of contradiction that this company do not own a single steamer. If that be so is it not fair that we should ask to whom we are paying this money, and to whom this company are going to pay the money. In making reference to the conditions in Halifax I have no desire that anything shall be done detrimental to any other part of the Dominion. I am desirous that everything shall be done to facilitate trade in every part of the Dominion. I referred to the Furness line of steamers which runs from Halifax- I have no doubt that that company could send a steamer to Annapolis to accommodate the apple trade of Nova Scotia, and the western part of Nova Scotia particularly. I know Mr. Whitman to be a very decent and respectable man, and I have not a word to say about him. The Dominion government have bonused more than one man to form a company, but it is not a fair thing to us to vote $5,000 to a so called company. The First Minister tells me that he does not know anything about it although this subsidy has been given for a year or two past. Still, we cannot tell anything about the company.


Mr. PICKUP.: Perhaps it is well I should explain that this company is composed of farmers, with Mr. Whitman as their secretary, and they charter boats during the season and have done so for the last ten years, on which to ship their apples to Europe. Only a proportion of the subsidy is drawn each year, there being $1,000 allowed for every boat that comes in under charter, and in consequence of this subsidy the farmers in western Nova Scotia, including the counties of Kings and Annapo-Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
lis are enabled to obtain a cheaper rate for the apples they ship from that part of the country. As low as forty and fifty cents a barrel have been paid as freight, when the rate from Annapolis and Kings county by rail via Halifax to English market was 85 to 90 cents per bbl., thus saving the farmers who avail themselves of the opportunity 30 to 40 cents per bbl. on each cargo of 10,000 barrels which, I think, would justify granting this subsidy. This subsidy is for the purpose of assisting the farmers of that part of the Dominion to get a cheap rate to the old country, They have chartered one or two vessels during the season,-I think four boats is the greatest number they have used in any one year,-and they draw $1,000 for each boat they charter-to the old country. Under this system they have shipped as many as 8,000 or 10,000 barrels on each-boat, so that it only has cost the government ten cents a barrel to grant this very valuable assistance. I do not think any objection can be made to this vote at all. It is as justifiable a subsidy as is granted by this government to any service whether it be from Halifax or St. John or anywhere else.


Adam Brown Crosby: That confirms my statement that this is not a company owning boats.


Samuel Walter Willet Pickup: What does it matter whether the company owns a boat or whether it charters a boat to carry on the business they undertake so long as it affords the people a satisfactory and cheap service to get their products to the market?


Mr. SINCLAIR.: It is the commonest thing in the world for steamship lines to charter boats, and my hon. friend (Mr. Crosby) knows that very well. The Furness line charter tramp boats from Halifax that they do not own at all. The contract with them is that they shall send a boat out at certain periods of the year to carry the freight, and it makes not the slightest difference to the farmers or the community generally whether the company owns the boat or not so long as their freight is carried.	.


Adam Brown Crosby: The hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) knows as well as I do that there is no steamship company in the world that does not own some boat. While the Canadian Pacific railway and other big lines charter boats at times, they have some boats to start with and they have something to offer when they ask for a subsidy. But here we have a company asking for a subsidy that has no boat at all, and that does not propose to own a boat, not to speak of having her registered in the Dominion. I know Mr. Whitman very well. Something has taken place

within the last year that will alter the whole conditions of trade with Annapolis. I am as anxious to see facilities for trade provided at Annapolis as at Halifax or anywhere else. The Canadian Pacific railway have recently bought the Western Counties railway, and they will no doubt make a strong bid for the apple trade from the Annapolis district. They will, I believe, give every advantage to the people of Annapolis and Western Nova Scotia to get their fruit to the old country not only at a low freight rate, but in such an excellent condition that tramp steamers cannot compete with them.


Samuel Walter Willet Pickup: These are not tramp steamers; they are freight boats that come from Spain and southern European ports, with fruit to the United States, and on their way back they call at Annapolis and carry the fruit and land it on the other side in good condition.


Adam Brown Crosby: I think I will be able to show that these ships come from Spain and Norway.


Samuel Walter Willet Pickup: They are English and Norwegian.


Adam Brown Crosby: I know what I am talking about, and I am satisfied that I will be able to show that they are more Norwegian than English. I am quite sure that one of the main Objects of the Canadian Pacific railway in acquiring that railway was to capture the apple trade of Western Nova Scotia, and in doing that they will not only give cheap transportation but the very best facilities. The subsidy is not large, it is true, but large or small we should not grant a subsidy without knowing why we are doing it. The Canadian Pacific railway will run their boats to Annapolis if they find it convenient, or they will take the apples to Halifax or St. John and send them to England from one of these ports. I do not mean to accuse the First Minister of naming boats that are not such, but I doubt very much that these are British boats, and the time has come when whatever subventions we give should be given to British boats only.


Wilfrid Laurier: My hon. friend is a doubting Thomas, but I will try and convince him that his suspicions are without foundation. We have the information from the hon. member for Annapolis that the company is composed of farmers, and that they charter boats for the purpose of shipping their own fruit, and an inquiry made by the Auditor General brought out a reply which is to be found in the report of the Trade and Uom-merce Department for 1909-10, which will give the history of the service. The hon. gentleman will find the correspondence in
the Auditor General's Report for the year 1909-10. The correspondence is as follows: Audit Office, Ottawa, December 21, 1909.
Sir,-In the contract with the Acadia Steamship Company for steamship service between Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia, and London or Hull, England, the payment of the subsidy of $1,000 for each voyage is made dependent on evidence being submitted to the department, sufficient to show that the ' fruit or other perishable produce shipped on such voyage was carried and delivered at the port of destination in good and satisfactory condition in so far as proper storage and ventilation thereof were concerned.' Have you received the necessary evidence in the way of certificate or otherwise that the fruit carried on the voyages for which you ask payment in your application of the 16th instant reached its destination in good and satisfactory condition ?
I am, sir, your obedient servant,



[Stage Direction]
The Deputy Minister of Trade and Commerce.
Trade and Commerce Department, Ottawa, December 23, 1909.
Sir,-In reply to your letter of t December 21, I beg to send you herewith evidence submitted by the Acadia Steamship Company showing that the fruit and other perishable produce carried on the above service was delivered at port of destination in good and satisfactory condition in so far as proper storage and ventilation thereof were concerned.	.
I am, sir, your obedient servant,
F. C. T. O'HARA, D.M. The Auditor General.
Audit Office, Ottawa, December 28, 1909.
Sir,-I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 23rd instant inclosing tern-perature chart3 of the steamers 1 Atlantis and ' Katinka ' which performed the voyages between Annapolis, Nova Scotia, and London, England, during the apple season, 1909, the subsidy for which you have asked payment in your application of 16th instant.
' Were the fruit cargoes of these steamers examined in the interests of the department at the port of destination, by any person in a position to certify that the fruit was in good condition at the end of the voyage?
I am. sir, vour obedient servant,

[Stage Direction]
The Deputy Minister of Trade and Commerce.
Trade and Commerce Department, Ottawa, December 29, 1909.
Sir,-Referring to your letter of December 28, I beg to state that the fruit cargoes on the steamers referred to were examined at the port of destination, and this department was advised that the receivers in Hull had wired the company in Annapolis that the ' Cargoes « Atlantis.' '* Katinka,' with regard to proper stowage, ventilation, delivered in good
condition.'	....	,
I am, sir, your obedient servant,
F. C. T. O'HARA, D.M. The Auditor General.
That ought to satisfy my hon. friend.
Adam Brown Crosby: The First Minister must think I am very easy to satisfy if he thinks

that will satisfy me. I could not hear one word to indicate that they are British boats.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, It is a stipulation of the contract that they must be British boats. If they were not it would he a fraud on the government and they would get no subsidy.


Adam Brown Crosby: That may be. I have not had time to look the boats up, but I think we should have that. Would the member for Annapolis state what Mr. Whitman has to do with this?


Samuel Walter Willet Pickup: He assembles the fruit.


Adam Brown Crosby: What I want is information as to the company. A steamship company or any other company cannot have less than three members.


Samuel Walter Willet Pickup: The Acadia Steamship Company, I suppose, has 100 shareholders.


Adam Brown Crosby: Could the hon. member name some of them?


Samuel Walter Willet Pickup: Mr. Whitman, Mr. Spur and Mr. G. R. Jones.


Adam Brown Crosby: It strikes me that whatever reason there may have been for giving the subsidy in the past there is no reason for giving it to-day. We are subsidizing a line to go to Annapolis and one to Halifax, two lines for the one character of trade. Then the Canadian Pacific railway has acquired this road, and I am satisfied that they will give as good a rate on fruit from Halifax, St. John or Annapolis as will be given by any steamship company or tramp steamer, and in addition to that they will give accommodation and storage for that fruit such as has not before been furnished.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN- Then no one will ship by this line, and no subsidy will be paid.


Adam Brown Crosby: If my hon. friend will grant a subsidy of $5,000 he will find some one to take it off his hands.


Samuel Walter Willet Pickup: It is only $1,000 a trip, and she carries 10,000 barrels, so that the farmers are saving $4,000 on each trip.


Adam Brown Crosby: If the Prime Minister will let this stand over until to-morrow, I will be able to prove that there is nothing in the statement of rates, that the rates offered by other companies to take the freight of Halifax will be equal to the freight from Annapolis. Of course if it goes through I have nothing further to say.
Steam service between Baddeck, Grand Narrows and Iona, $5,825.


Robert Laird Borden: What boat performs this service?


Wilfrid Laurier: The contract is with the Victoria Steamship Company of Mr. CROSBY.
Baddeck, and the steamer is the ' Blue Hill.'


Adam Brown Crosby: Can you give any information about the directors of this company?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER, No, I do not know.


Mr. KYTE.: One of the directors and the manager is Mr. A. H. Sutherland, of Baddeck, another is Mr. J. E. Hamilton, retired merchant of Baddeck.


Adam Brown Crosby: Can you assure me that Mr. Young, of Sydney, is not one?


George William Kyte: Mr. Young has nothing to do with it whatever.


Robert Laird Borden: Is it a weekly service?


Wilfrid Laurier: No; two full round trips are run daily during the season of navigation.
Steam service between Bonaventure river, Quebec, Petit Rocher and Bathurst, N.B., triweekly, during the season of 1911, $5,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: No service was run under a contract on this route during the last year, but a contract was entered into on January 9, with Angus McLean for a service to ' be performed from the opening of navigation, 1911, to March 31, 1916, by a steamer of not less than 1,000 tons register, with accommodation for 100 passengers. Mails are to be carried, and the annual subsidy is $5,000.


Robert Laird Borden: What is the reason of the increase?


Wilfrid Laurier: No company would take it for the subsidy, and there was no service last year.
Steamship service between Canada and Australia on the Pacific Ocean-Five-sixths of $180,509.


Wilfrid Laurier: 
Mr. DANIEL.: Is the tonnage gross or net?


Wilfrid Laurier: I have given the gross only.	,


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How long is the contract for?


Wilfrid Laurier: Five years.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: In what position is the All Red Route system at present?


Wilfrid Laurier: That depends very much on whether the imperial government are ready to contribute or not. New Zealand, has always been Teady to contribute handsomely; Australia has not been so ready. Unless we have the good will of Australia, I have no hope that we shall have an All Red Route. The matter no doubt will be taken up at the next conference. If we can prevail on the British government to give us a subsidy also on the Atlantic ocean, whether they contribute to the Pacific ocean service or not, that would mean a good deal. A good deal of the success of the All Red Route depends on what service we would obtain on the Atlantic. If we could obtain a fast service on the Atlantic for a reasonable sum, no doubt we could have a service which would go far to make the All Red Route an accomplished fact.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: It is entirely left with the British government and the government of Australia to do their part towards the maintenance of such a service?


Wilfrid Laurier: We would expect that.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: But in passing this vote, will we not be interfering in some way with the carrying out of that proposition? We are entering into an arrangement for five years.


Wilfrid Laurier: The All Red Route is not in such a position of certainty that we should neglect the opportunity of having a good service on the Pacific ocean. Moreover, to organize the All Red Route service and secure the proper steamers would take nearly five years.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: 
Wilfrid Laurier: I am sorry to say that I do not see such an immediate prosnect of realizing an All Red route as would warrant us with not keeping the service we have in hand.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Would it not be possible to enter into a contract for the present yeaT only?


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not think that any steamship company such as this one-a respectable, strong company-would undertake a service of this kind for one year only.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Is it not a fact that at the last Imperial Conference the Prime Minister of Australia said it would be impossible to do a freight service by the All Red Route over Canada on account of the transhipment of goods, and that they could send freight just as quickly, and cheaper by way of the Suez canal?


William Cameron Edwards: On a previous item the right hon. gentleman said that this government regulated the freight rates of these companies to which subsidies were granted chiefly on the goods exported from Canada. I would take that to mean that to a certain extent the government also regulated the freight rate on the goods coming in by these lines.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand that we cannot regulate these rates absolutely. We Tun up against what is known as the North Atlantic Conference. As to the goods that are shipped out of the country, we control the rates absolutely, but as to the goods coming in we do not.


William Cameron Edwards: The main object of these subsidies, I should think, would be to facilitate the outgo of Canadian products. But when we consider the figures in the report of the Department of Trade and Commerce as showing the amount of our produce sent to Australia and New Zealand, we cannot but have some doubts as to the advisability of granting $300,500 a year- that is what this item and the next, covering the trade between the Canada and Australia and New Zealand, both on the Atlantic and Pacific amount to-to facilitate that trade. Another point that suggests itself is that all the time we have been granting these subsidies and so endeavouring to facilitate the outgo of Canadian products to Australia and New Zealand, these countries have maintained pretty high tariffs against the goods from this country. But it is quite possible that if the agreement now pending before the House is ratified we shall be paying these hundreds of thousands of dollars of subsidy to bring goods into Canada to compete with our own products. For instance, take the item of mutton from Australia. There is a very remarkable growth of the amount of that product brought into this country in recent years. It grew from 60,000 pounds in 1905 to over 1,000,000 pounds in 1908, and in 1910 it was 1,377,270 pounds. I do not know what it was in the fiscal

year just closed, but the indications in the answer given to questions were that not only the amount of mutton, but the amount of other products, coming from these countries to Canada is increasing, notwithstanding the duty they have to pay at the present time. At the same time, our exports to Australia and New Zealand have grown comparatively little. In 1908 our exports amounted to $992,442. That is the sum total of the goods shipped from this country, both home and foreign, for Australia and New Zealand. In 1909 it was only $996,901, and in 1910 it dropped to $890,549. There does not seem to be any very great growth in the outgo of our products to New Zealand-it seems rather declining. This makes me doubt the advisability of the subsidy.


Wilfrid Laurier: No doubt my hon. friend (Mr. Edwards) is right; we have received very small returns indeed for the large outlay we have made in providing steamship accommodation between Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Trade has not grown correspondingly. New Zealand has given us a preference, as we have given her, but Australia has not, up to the present time, gives us a preference. But we have a promising trade in Australia, chiefly in agricultural implements. Notwithstanding the very high tariff against it, this trade has grown and is still growing. The subsidy for which as we are now asking the approval of the House is not confined to Canada alone, but is correspondingly maintained by New Zealand. The question simply is:	Are we to have communication with the sister colony, New Zealand, or not? These steamers are chiefly mail and passenger steamers. We expect, in the course of time, if we cannot get the whole of the freight trade of New Zealand and Australia, we ought to have a very large and increasing proportion of the passenger trade. Would my hon. friend (Mr. Edwards) advise us, in the face of the fact that we have, on this continent a British Dominion, and that there are on the other side of the world two British Dominions, that it is not worth while to pay to have steam communication between them? The matter is not only one of business. There is a question of sentiment, and more, one of high policy that we should keep steamship, telegraphic and any other communication possible with our fellow subjects on the other side of the world. That is partly the reason we have the subsidy. And if we pay these subsidies, we must expect that the steamers will carry goods into Canada also. We sell some of our goods to the British subjects in Australia and New Zealand, and we must expect that they will send in return what goods they can sell us. I think the policy Mr. EDWARDS
a wise one. It is not a new one, and I have never heard it seriously challenged up to the present time.


Mr. PORTER.: Are these steamships subsidized by New Zealand and Australia as well as by Canada?


Wilfrid Laurier: They are subsidized by New Zealand. Formerly they were subsidized by Australia also, but Australia refused to go into the last contract.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What is their reason for refusing?


Wilfrid Laurier: That is more than I can say.


William Cameron Edwards: Of course, if the granting of these subsidies is to be considered on sentimental as wrell as economic lines, it opens up a very different field. I may be wrong in my recollection, but I think I have heard somebody say, or have read somewhere that some person said, in this House, that very little consideration ought to be given to sentiment in the matter^ of trade relations. However, I have no wish to sever the connection between Canada and other parts of the empire. If the link can be made stronger by subsidizing steamship lines all right. But it occurred to me that as a business proposition, it would be quite right to consider the possibility of goods coming in on these subsidizing vessels as well as going out on them. And, in view of the growth of the" importation from Australia and New Zealand into Canada, and notwithstanding the present rate of duties, it would seem to me that if the agreement which has come up for consideration in this House for some time is ratified, there would he still greater importations of their products into this country to compete with the farm products of Canada; and so the subsidy we grant will not be so much to facilitate the outgoing of Canadian products as the incoming of the products with which Canadian products will have to compete.
I would not for a moment advocate that these subsidies be discontinued. They have been granted for many years, and I would feel like subordinating my own view' to the views of men of greater experience in such matters. I would like to know the character of our export trade to Australia and New Zealand. I know that a great part of it consists of agricultural implements, and I have no hesitation in saying that I do not feel like facilitating the exportation of agricultural implements. I feel that the agricultural implement people have had the big end of the stick in this country for a long while, and if we are granting subsidies to take so many hundred thousand dollars of Canadian produce, chiefly agricultural im-Dlements. to Australia and New Zealand, the return cargoes being the produce of

these countries coining into direct competition with what our farmers produce, then it seem to open up another field of consideration as to the advisability of continuing to grant extensive subsidies for that purpose.


John Dowsley Reid: To whom are these subsidies paid?


Wilfrid Laurier: This is paid to the Union Steamship Company.


John Dowsley Reid: Have we any communication with Australia :by the Canadian Pacific railway?


Wilfrid Laurier: On the Atlantic, but not on the Pacific.


John Dowsley Reid: This is the only communication with Australia?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is it the intention of the Prime Minister at the coming conference to urge the importance of carrying out the All Red Route proposition? Has any effort been made to secure control of telegraph lines across the country to assist in carrying out that project or to build telegraph lines?	F


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not know that we have attempted to have our own lines on the continent. One of the objects of the conference will be to discuss cable service across the Atlantic. On this subject the government has already had a very voluminous correspondence with the imperial government.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I asked whether the Prime Minister intended to urge upon the conference the importance of this All Red Route system?


Wilfrid Laurier: Certainly, and I am very glad to have the assistance of my hon. friend.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: In reference to the cable system the Prime Minister is well aware that unless we do our part in carrying messages across our own country, we can hardly expect in the near future to have a cable system carried to any successful conclusion, and if the Prime Minister or his government have not taken any action in the matter I would be very much surprised.


Wilfrid Laurier: We have had numerous conferences with the Canadian Pacific railway with regard to the improvement of the service on the 'continent, and I am glad to say it has been improved, and I have had no complaint of late upon that subject. We now have the Pacific Cable which is owned by the four governments, Great Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. We have communication by the Canadian Pacific railway wire across the continent. Now the one question which is of
greater moment is communication between Canada and Great Britain, and this is one of the subjects to be taken up at the conference.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The rates of the Canadian Pacific railway are under consideration as well, are they not?


Wilfrid Laurier: Certainly.


Richard Blain: The question of steamship subsidies does not receive much attention in this House. The right hon. gentleman tc-night suggests that a very large number of items might pass without much discussion because they have passed Die House for many years. In my opinion these matters should be gone into very closely. Every one of these subsidies should be carefully investigated, taking into consideration the development of trade between Canada and these other countries, the changed conditions of the carrying trade and commerce generally. I believe a special commission should be appointed to secure better and fuller information upon this matter, so that it might be placed on a better and more substantial and more Canadian basis. The goods brought in by many of these lines come into competition with our own goods It is very important, as the right hon. gentleman points out, that we should have communication with all parts of the British Empire, but I do think that these matters pass the House without much consideration and I venture to say do not receive proner consideration by the government; there is a tendency to take it for granted that, having passed, they should pass again. When we ask what^ the results have been we are generally^ told by the ministers That the increase in trade has been disappointing. We hear that year after year. I think the appointment of a commission in order that this whole matter should be revised would be in the best interests of Canada.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


John Dowsley Reid: Has the government control of the rates on goods exported from Canada on subsidized steamers.


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes; they aTe subject to the approval of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and if the rates are not approved, the subsidies can be cancelled.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: It seems strange that this arrangement should be entered into without the assistance of Australia. Australia receives the greatest benefit from this subsidy, yet this country and New Zealand are practically bearing the whole cost of the subsidy. The Prime Minister seems to be unable to give any explanation why Australia is not assisting in this subsidy.


Wilfrid Laurier: As far as I can understand the reason, it is this: The



steamship service is performed by the same company with Australia and New Zealand. If we had a service direct to Australia 1 think Australia would contribute, but the fact that the steamers going from Vancouver to Australia call at New Zealand, lengthens the journey, and therefore the service is not as speedy as it might otherwise be. That is my own surmise. We shall know more when I come back from the conference. If my hon. friend will then question me I will perhaps be able to give him a better answer than I can at the present time, because this is certain to be one of the subjects that will be discussed at the conference. At the present time I have no information except that Australia has refused to participate. We have wired, telegraphed and written and at last the matter could not be delayed any longer, and we concluded to make an arrangement with New Zealand in the hope that Australia will come in. Since it has been done, I understand that Australia may perhaps come in.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: That seems an additional reason why this vote should stand over until the Prime Minister returns. It certainly seems a reasonable question to ask, because Australia is one of the colonies that is going to receive the greatest benefit from this very same source, and at the same time we assist them to bring goods into our country to compete with our own. If the reciprocity deal should ever happen to pass this House their goods will be coming in here in direct competition with our farmers' products and do an immense amount of injury to our people. That we should grant this subsidy in order to assist them to do it seems rather unfair.


Wilfrid Laurier: My hon. friend is all wrong. This subsidy is for a service between Canada and New Zealand, and not between Canada and Australia.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Yes, but Australia benefits by it.	-


Wilfrid Laurier: The steamers may call at Australia; that is they have permission to go there. I may say to my hon. friend that Australia was ready to contribute if we were willing to ignore New Zealand, but we would not do that, and Australia retired.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: These same boats call at Australia, and collect the products that will come to our country and compete in such large quantities.


Wilfrid Laurier: The boats leave Vancouver and go direct to New Zealand. Then, the company have the privilege of extending their trip to Australia.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER


William Cameron Edwards: I would like to add one word as to why the item attracted my attention. I could not help but compare it with item No. 174, for a service between Canada and Great Britain, costing us $600,000. When one considers that we are granting a subsidy of $600,000 to facilitate the exportation of our products to our best customer, and granting half that amount for an exceedingly small trade, in so far as anything we have to sell is concerned, with Australia and New Zealand, it did strike me that one subsidy was entirely out of proportion with the other.


Wilfrid Laurier: Does my hon. friend compare the subsidy for the New Zealand service with the subsidy to the Allan line for the service to London? The things are not comparable.


William Cameron Edwards: 1 was comparing tnem purely from the standpoint of the trade figures. The amount that we sell to Australia and New Zealand is exceedingly small. For instance, to New Zealand, we so'ld in 1910, of home products, $887,058. I understand that New Zealand reciprocates in this matter of the subsidy, but that Australia does not. We sold to Australia $3,561,075 of home products, and we admitted from Australia $403,484 and $774,166 worth in 1910. It is true that the balance of trade is in our favour, but the amount of the subsidy for the amount of the trade seems to me to be large.


Wilfrid Laurier: I have nothing to say of the result in so far as trade is concerned. We have not obtained what we had reason to believe we should obtain from this service. The question is whether we should maintain it or drop it, I have stated the reasons why I think the steamship service ought to be maintained even if it does not give us as much trade as we should receive.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Would the position of the Prime Minister not be stronger at the colonial conference when he was arguing with Australia in order to induce them to enter into this arrangement if the item was not passed?


Wilfrid Laurier: No, I think not. I think the item must go through, because we must have a service on the Pacific ocean with that colony.


John Dowsley Reid: I would like to ask the right hon. First Minister if there is any subsidy granted for a steamship service between Canada and the Argentine republic?


Wilfrid Laurier: None whatever.
Steam service between Canadian Atlantic ports and Australia and New Zealand, $120,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is for an Atlantic service, and the subsidy is voted to the New Zealand Shipping Company. The following steamships are engaged in this service:
Tonnage. Speed. Net. Gross. Knots.
5,628
5,902
5,824
5,610
4,505
6,238
6,034
11
11
Mi
Name.
Rakaia	 3,660
Whakatane	 3,786
W akanui	 3*751
Waimate	 3*629
Turkistan..	7	 2^899
Tokom-aru	 4,072
Kumara	 3,907
These boats sail on or about the 15th of each month. The summer service is between Montreal and Auckland, Wellington, Lyttleton and Dunedin, in New Zealand, and the ports of Melbourne and Sydney in Australia, while the winter service is from St. John and Halifax, to the ports mentioned in New Zealand and Australia.


William Cameron Edwards: I would like to know if the right lion, gentleman has the figures indicating what proportion of our trade between Canada, Australia and New Zealand is carried through Atlantic ports and what through Pacific ports?


Wilfrid Laurier: No I have not. This was a new service which was inaugurated a little more than a year ago, at the instance of the merchants, chiefly of Toronto and Montreal, on the representation that unless we had a steamship service from the Atlantic all the trade we have with Australia would go by New York. We have inaugurated this service to keep in British channels the trade of the St. Lawrence. We have yet no statistics to enable us to distinguish between the J.rade done by the Pacific service and the Atlantic service.
Steam service between Canada and Great Britain, $600,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is the well known service of the Allan Line. The steamships are the ' Victorian 10,629 tons gross, speed 18 knots; 'Virginian' 10,764 tons, speed 18 knots; 'Corsican', 11,436 tons, speed 15 knots; ' Grampian, 9,603 tons, speed 15 knots; ' Hesperian, 9,599 tons, speed 15 knots; 'Tunisian', 10,576 tons, speed 154 knots. By an agreement between the Allan Line, and the Canadian Pacific Railway Line the service is performed also by: ' Empress of Britain ', 14,189 gross tons, speed, 184 knots; 'Empress of Ireland ', 14,191 tons, speed 184 knots. There are ten complete round voyages per annum by each steamer. The winter service is Halifax, St. John, and Liverpool, and the summer service, Montreal, Quebec and Liverpool. This contract is about to expire and we have not renewed it. We think that at the present time the service 2774	, t
on the St. Lawrence can be performed without any special subsidy. This is chiefly for the carriage of the mails-and that the mails can be carried on the poundage system as far as the summer service is concerned, although it mav be different in the ease of the winter service. We have reason to expect that the time has come when we should look forward to a far better and speedier service than we have had. We believe we should have a service of at least twenty-one knots as compared with 184 knots now, and we have expectation that we may receive offers for such a service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why are you voting a subsidy if you have not renewed the contract?


Wilfrid Laurier: The contract is for five years, and we do not propose to renew it, although we may have to continue it for one or two years. This vote will carry us over one year, and meantime we are expecting offers for a better service.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do those who use the cold storage on these ships for their dairy products, &e., get better terms on account of this subsidy? Some years ago when the cold storage arrangement was entered into, we provided that those who use it should get a better rate than the ordinary rate, but I think of late years that arrangement has not been adhered to.


Wilfrid Laurier: All the rates are under the control of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. The contract reads:
It is further understood and agreed that the tolls to be charged in the way of either freight or passenger rates between ports on both east and westbound trips shall always under substantially similar circumstances and conditions, be charged equally to all persons, and at the same rate, whether by weight or otherwise, in respect of all traffic of the same description and receiving in carriage the like accommodation; and further, that no toll shall be charged which discriminates against Canadian merchants or shippers or against emigrants to Canada.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That is all right so far as it goes, but originally there was a provision that the cold storage rates on these subsidized steamers would be less than on unsubsidized steamers. I think that that arrangement was dropped some time ago. As the First Minister says, this service ought to be self-supporting without a subsidy, but when we give .a subvention ostensibly for the mail service it ought to help to stimulate the exportation of these perishable products and secure a larger return for the farmers of the country by enabling them to ship at lower rates.


Wilfrid Laurier: All these are valuable considerations for the next contract.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I am glad to know that the Prime Minister has not renewed this contract. Might I suggest to him a point worthy of consideration, that, while the rate from Liverpool to Halifax is, I think, seventeen shillings, the rate from Liverpool to New York is only nine or ten shillings, and, steamers receiving this large subsidy should be practically forced to compete in freight rates with the port of New York. If that were done, it would help our land transportation systems.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I agree with the First Minister that we ought to have a much faster Atlantic service. We have for years past engaged in a childish effort to negotiate with these people who are providing boats for the service which are away behind the age, if not in comfort, certainly in speed. It is time we should have a faster Atlantic service than we have had.


Wilfrid Laurier: Hear, hear.
Steam service between Canada and Cuba, $25,000.


John Waterhouse Daniel: What are the details of this service?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes, this change has been made by the minister since the contract was let.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Are all the vessels named, British vessels?


Wilfrid Laurier: Some of these which were used at first are not. We now pay no subsidy except to British boats.


Edward Guss Porter: Is the trade with Cuba growing satisfactorily?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


William Cameron Edwards: I cannot understand on what basis the amounts of these subsidies are fixed. Comparing the trade with Mexico and Cuba for the past four years, I find that our imports from these countries were:
Year	Mexico.	Cuba.1906 '	
$297,516	$445,1001907'	
492,299	475,3191908	
919,826	515,1631909	
315,334	496,4851910	
559,122	841,209
Our imports from Cuba into Canada have almost doubled since 1906. Our exports to the two countries were:
Exports to Exports to
Year	Mexico.	Cuba.1906	
$259,372	$1,221,7661910	
904,957	1,737,385


Wilfrid Laurier: The contractors are Wm. Thomson & Co., Limited. The date of the contract is December 1, 1909, and it expired on the 7th of January, 1911.
The steamships are the following:
Name.	Net.	Gross. Capacity.	Tons.	Tons.	Tons.* Trongate \ . ..	.. 1,619	2,552	2,700* Ottringham 9 ..	.. 1,698	2,679	5,100* Gogovale '.. ..	.. 2,038	3,097	5,2501 Leuctra ' .. ..	.. 1,950	3,207	5,032* Benedick '.. ..	.. 1,581	2,440	'Bencliff' .. ..	.. 1,385	2,210	
In addition to the above steamers, the * Felix/ ' Snestad J and ' Haakon ' were also employed.
They are all ten knot steamers, and no cold storage provided. It is a monthly service from St. John to Havana, and the subsidy is $25,000 per annum.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Is that a direct service both ways or are the vessels allowed to call at American ports?


Wilfrid Laurier: It is a direct service down, but on the return journey when the contractors show that they cannot get sufficient cargor they are allowed to proceed to American ports to complete.


John Waterhouse Daniel: In calling for tenders was it not stipulated that it should be a direct service both ways?
It will be seen that our trade with Mexico is very much smaller than our trade with Cuba, and yet the subsidy granted to the steamship iines running between Canada and Cuba, is $25,000 while the subsidy for the steamship service between Canada and Mexico on the Atlantic is $50,000, and on the Pacific $*75,000. That is, our subsidy for the steamship service between Mexico and Canada on the Atlantic is twice as large as our subsidy for the steamship service to Cuba, yet our trade with Cuba is very much larger than our trade with Mexico. I do not understand on what basis the subsidies are granted. If they are granted to facilitate trade one would naturally expect that there would be some proportion between the subsidies granted and the amount of trade. The subsidies seem to be in inverse ratio to the trade.


Wilfrid Laurier: Perhaps that is the reason we pay the larger subsidy to Mexico, because the trade is in its infancy and has to be encouraged more than the trade with Cuba. Another reason is that the service with Cuba is from St. John to Havana, whereas the trade with Mexico is from Montreal to Mexico, a much longer voyage. The trade with Mexico is of very recent growth, it did not exist ten years ago, while the trade between the maritime provinces and the West Indies is very old, in. fact has been carried on as long as these


Thomas Simpson Sproule: exm
countries have existed. It, therefore, does not require such a large subsidy to carry that trade on as to carry on the trade with Mexico, where the (business has to be created.


Adam Brown Crosby: The trade with the West Indies has been carried on for many years but only in the last few years have the government undertaken to give a subsidy. When the subsidy was granted the trade was being carried on successfully from Halifax, and there was no necessity for the subsidy. I cannot see any reason for giving it, it is simply subsidizing one port in Canada to compete with some other port. This subsidy_ is largely for the carrying of potatoes from New Brunswick, and the first year the subsidy was granted, I think in 1908, it did not help the farmers in New Brunswick, in fact it caused disaster. It would be better for them if there were no subsidy. I am confident that it does not help the exporters of potatoes, it only helps those who are interested in chartering the boats. This is another case where boats are_ chartered as in the case of the Annapolis subsidy. Thompson & Company charter boats during the time that trade is active in the fall. They frequently carry our lumber. Sailing vessels carry freight from the port of St. John, and all along the coast of New Brunswick. We have a fine class of vessels there able to handle this trade. Of course there is no difficulty in getting a steamer to load in the autumn at St. John, Halifax, or Annapolis for Cuba, but these steamers do not bring any cargo back, because there is none to bring. This is a subvention which is not in the interest of trade and commerce generally or of trade with Cuba at all.


Mr. PERLEY.: Has the Prime Minister any figures to show the amount of freight carried under this contract?


Wilfrid Laurier: In 1910 there were 5,888 tons of general merchandise, chiefly potatoes and fish.


George Halsey Perley: It seems to me that the argument used by my hon. friend from Halifax must be a good one in view of these figures. In 1910 5,888 tons of freight went out and none came in. That shows conclusively that the change which the government made in this contract was not a good one because the outer trip is the direct trip to Cuba, the steamers could not stop anywhere else; but on the inward trip thev stop at other ports which get the freight while Canada pays the subsidy. There were no passengers carried either in or out. The Prime Minister says that the estimates are the same as last year, and he thinks that is a good reason why we should pass them. But because a subsidy has been granted several years is no reason
why it should be continued. That company.-was started in 1908, and in 1910 it took oute less than 6,000 tons and brought none in If this freight can be shipped by steamers^ from St. John, Halifax, and Annapolis that: have no subsidy, there is no reason whyr we should grant a subsidy to this particular:: line.


Wilfrid Laurier: This subsidy was first asked for by the merchants afi St. Johns, who were convinced that a valuable trade could be developed between the two countries, and the government acceded, to their representations. Tenders were advertised for, and it was only after ample: publicity that a subsidy was given. I do>
not know that any protest was ever made-by any one or that there was any rival, steamship company plying between those-two points. When the hon. member for Halifax made the complaint that there was no necessity for the service, that it wouM compete with other companies, I remember distinctly that this point was challenged, by the hon. member for Carleton (Mr Carvell) who insisted that this service would be of very great benefit to the farm-, ers and fishermen.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I think that this service'-was inaugurated for the purpose of transporting farm products, and working up a trade with Cuba in those goods. As a< matteT of fact these steamers have been: carrying large quantities of potatoes,, especially in clearing from New Brunswick and the adjoining state of Maine as well, because the prices of potatoes in the United States are lo-wer than in New Brunswick. But the trouble has been that there is very, little return freight from Cuba to Canada, and there is preferential treatment between Cuba and the United States, so that the shippers from Cuba can do better in the-United States.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many companies tendered for this contract?


Wilfrid Laurier: I have not got; that information.


Adam Brown Crosby: It .seems that the Prime-Minister has the idea that this was brought about by the government advertising for tenders. If he will inquire he will find that, thi-s was brought about early in 1909 by the hon. member for CaTleton, N.B. (Mr. Car- veil) and the Minister of Public Works making a strong demand for a subsidy of $20,000. In the session of 1908-9 we discussed this-matteT, and it was shown beyond the shadow of a doubt that the subsidy was due to the demand of the hon. member for Carle-ton and the Minister of Public Works, who had been asked by some people more particularly interested in getting a subsidy and putting on the steamers. And it was proved conclusively that the steamships the.

Thompson people put on were practically all Norwegian boats. The first year, I think, one was a British steamer. And the fact remains that we were doing as much business before as we are doing to-day with this subsidy. The only import business we had with Cuba at that time was in molasses and sugar. In the changed condition of affairs, that trade goes in another direction; we seldom import sugar from Cuba to be manufactured in Canada. We have a regular service of boats running via New York to Cuba. In the fall during the season of the potato crop and when exports of potatoes take place to Cuba and other markets, there is no difficulty in chartering all the vessels [DOT]that there are cargoes for. In the city of Halifax, any one looking over the returns will see that a great trade is done with -Cuba during the autumn, yet quite without a, subsidy. In the city of St. John, they can get all the steamers they want without the subsidy. When they have a cargo, all they have to do is to put a demand on the market and they get a steamer at once. A great portion of the export to Cuba is in lumber, and this is carried from our ports to Cuba by sailing vessels quite as satisfactorily as it can be carried by steamers. The voyage by sailing vessel from Halifax *or St. John to Cuba is 12 to 16 days, and the voyage of a steamer is 7 or 8 days. With a *cargo of lumber, the difference in time is of little importance. So, the effect of this subsidy is to interfere with the carrying of our own products in our own Dominion bottoms, to the injury of our own seamen and ship owners. I, therefore, protest, as I have done on former occasions, against subsidies of this kind. I do this not with the desire to interfere with the trade of any port, but because I can see no good reason for this subsidy. I do not want to see a subsidy granted that will interfere with the business of our own Canadian sailing ships as well as with steamers.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: Shall the item pass? Carried.


Adam Brown Crosby: I would like to have some reason given for granting the subsidy, and we have not heard any reason for it yef. The Prime Minister has told us that advertisements were sent out and that sort of thing, but the fact is that this subsidy was first granted on the demand of the hon. member for Carleton, N.B., and the Minister of Public Works in 1909. The government granted it by minute of council, and the vote was brought in in the. session of 1909. Therefore, in the start, there was the demand, not of any farmers of New Brunswick or of the vicinity of St. John, but a demand by some hon. gentlemen in this House. I understand that Mr. Thompson and some other gentlemen are connected with it, and they desired to get $25,000 to Mr. CROSBY.
charter some boats which would take trade, that, as I have said, was already done by sailing ships or unsubsidized steamers.


Wilfrid Laurier: I have no doubt that the initiation of this subsidy was as stated by my hon. friend (Mr. Crosby). It was brought to the attention of the government, no doubt, by the minister who represents New Brunswick, and the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) who is a supporter of the government. It was brought in not for their own benefit, for they had nothing to do with it, but for the purpose of finding markets for the products of the farmers and fishermen of New Brunswick. As stated by my hon. friend, confirming what I have already said, there has been, as far back as memory goes, a great trade between the maritime provinces and the West Indies. But that trade was largely confined, so far as Canada was concerned, to the export of fish and the import of sugar and molasses. That trade received a very severe blow after the Spanish war when the United States got a special tariff arrangement with Cuba after Cuba had secured its independence. Efforts have been made ever since to recover our trade. It was thought that if a line of steamers were established to carry not only the only article which was then a matter of export to Cuba -fish-but also to carry agricultural products, it would be possible to develop trade. I have no doubt the project was well conceived. But, as stated by my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Daniel) there has been no corresponding cargo from Cuba, and for that obvious reason the United States have a large advantage over us. That is the reason why we have opened that service. The success has been moderate, it may be that we are not getting sufficient advantage from it, but I do not think we should abandon it yet.


Adam Brown Crosby: There is no reason why the subsidy should ever have been granted. Last year Cuba took all the potatoes and fish that we could send her. In the very first year this subsidy was granted it had the effect of bringing about a bad condition for the exporters who shipped their potatoes to Cuba, and they were induced to do so by those who were interested in getting the farmers to ship in order to fill up the steamers. It was a disastrous thing for the farmers in the province of New Brunswick. But there is another consideration that occurs to me. The government pretend that under their reciprocity agreement, if it carries, we are going to send out apples, our potatoes and our fish to the United States; then why are we arranging for this line of steamships to carry our stuff to Cuba? If the United States takes all our stuff what is the use of granting subsidies to steamers to carry it

to Cuba or to Great Britain? The hon. gentlemen opposite claim that under reciprocity the maritime provinces will double their exports of apples, fish and potatoes to the United States, and at the same time they are arranging for subsidies to carry them to Cuba and to Britain. I claim that there is no necessity for this subvention to carry these goods to Cuba; we have all the facilities we require now without it.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I think the object of the subsidy in the first place was all right, and that it was a good thing, because it was given for direct voyages to Cuba and back to Canada. I think that is the way the contract should be continued, because it was for that purpose the contract was given, not to create trade between Cuba and New York, but between Cuba and Canada. These vessels find it much easier to get a good return cargo from Havana to New York. I think the idea of the subsidy is correct, but it should be carried out in the way of a direct voyage both ways.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many trips did these steamers make last year to Cuba?


Wilfrid Laurier: Twelve.
Steam service between Canada and Mexico upon the Atlantic ocean, $50,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This service is performed by the Elder-Dempster Company. The trade has been steadily increasing from its inception. It consists of general merchandise and manufactured products chiefly.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What is the extent of the trade to Mexico, on the east and on the west, for which we are expending $125,000?


Wilfrid Laurier: I cannot give that information. The customs returns do not separate between the service on the Pacific and the service on the Atlantic.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What did they both amount to, the whoft trade?


Wilfrid Laurier: This trade was begun in 1906 when it amounted to $259,000. During the nine months of the following year it amounted to $317,000; in 1908, $477,000; in 1909, $817,000, and in 1910, $904,000.


William Cameron Edwards: Does the Mexican government pay any subsidy for this Atlantic service?


Wilfrid Laurier: The government of Mexico pays $50,000 for the Atlantic service.


Robert Laird Borden: And a subsidy on the Pacific also?


Wilfrid Laurier: No, on the Pacific they pay no subsidy.


George Halsey Perley: The Prime Minister stated that the trade is increasing satisfactorily. I do not find that the figures given in the Trade and Commerce report are very satisfactory. In 1908 the total tons carried by this line were 14,855; in 1909, 16,337, and in 1910,
13.642.	There was less freight carried in 1910 than in 1908. Further than that I see that in 1907 the number of tons carried was 45,811, whereas it has fallen in 1910 to
13.642.	I would like to know whether the Prime Minister thinks that is a healthy condition?


Wilfrid Laurier: My hon. friend only takes the tons carried. But, there are the tons weight and the tons measurement which are very important considerations. The figures are as follows:
Tons Tons
	Weight.	Meas't.
1908, In	, .. 4,360	41,870Out	. .. 10,495	21,975


Total.   ..@: .. 14,865	63,845
1909, In	. .. 2,110	26,751Out	.. 14,277	15,239Total.. ..	.. 16,337	41,990
In 1910 there is a corresponding increase in respect of the traffic, and especially the ton measurement showing that thg trade in lumber especially seems to have increased.


George Halsey Perley: The minister is making a poor argument. The figures for the tons measurement show that the quantity carried in 1910 was less than half as much as that carried in 1908.


Wilfrid Laurier: Possibly. I understand that one of the reasons why the tons weight has decreased is because they cannot get any more sisal in Mexico.


Adam Brown Crosby: This is a subsidy in the right direction. It is a subsidy that is beginning to build up a trade that could not be built up by any other method. I think the merchants of Canada feel that they have benefited by this service, and that they hope some day to have a large trade. This is not like some of the other subventions in regard to which the traffic could be handled without a subsidy. This is a trade that we would get if we did not grant this steamship subsidy.


William Cameron Edwards: Can the right hon. gentleman inform me as to the amount of duty collected on imports from Mexico in 1908 and 1910?


Wilfrid Laurier: Not at this moment. I can find out the particulars later.

Steamship service between Canada and Mexico upon the Pacific Ocean, $75,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is a subsidy that was inaugurated over five years ago. The contractor is Mr. Thomas Herbert Worsnop, of Vancouver. The steamships engaged are the ' Lonsdale/ net tonnage, 2,043, speed, 11-25 knots, and the ' Georgia,' net tonnage 1,778, gross 2,797, and speed 11 knots. It is a monthly service of 12 complete trips during each year, from Vancouver and Victoria to Salina Cruz, Mexico, calling on both north and south bound voyages at Mazatlan, Manzanillo and Acapulco in Mexico. The first contract, made September 17, 1906, allowed a period of six months to place ships on the route, and was to continue for two years from first sailing from Vancouver, which was May 1, 1907... This contract expired May 1, 1909. The new contract is for three years from May_l, 1909, and expires May 1, 1912. The amount paid is $75,000 per annum.
'Steam service or services between Canada and Newfoundland, $18,000.	.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is a well known subsidy. The service is performed by the Reid Newfoundland Company, by three steamers, the ' Bruce,' which was recently destroyed, _ the ' Glencoe,' and the ' Invermore.' It is a daily service except Sunday, between North Sydney and Port au Basque.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Do these steamers run to Sydney in the winter?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: May I ask the Prime Minister what progress has been made towards bringing Newfoundland into the confederation, and what effort has been put forth towards bringing about that happy state of affairs.


Wilfrid Laurier: None whatever, since the offer of Newfoundland was not accepted in 1894. We have made no effort on our part to bring Newfoundland into confederation. Not that our view upon the subject has changed, but we understand that the people of Newfoundland are not at all favourable to confederation, and no effort that we could make would induce them to come in at the present time.


John Dowsley Reid: Was not there a report in the newspapers the other day that they were ready to come in?


Wilfrid Laurier: So many things are said in the newspapers.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I cannot help but feel that it .might be wise on the part of the government to at least investigate the matter, and^ see if it is not possible to communicate with the people of Newfoundland with regard to the question.


Wilfrid Laurier: 


Mr. FIELDING.: I really think it would be a mistake on the part of the government of Canada to take any action in the matter. I am sure it would be misunderstood in Newfoundland. Newfoundland public men are, well aware that it is the disposition among public men in this Dominion irrespective of party to have Newfoundland join the Dominion, and that whenever they are prepared to make the approach in the matter they will be welcomed. But, I am satisfied that any movement on the part of the Canadian government would be resented, and so long as our friends in Newfoundland know that everybody in Canada is well disposed towards them I do not think that at the present stage we could with advantage do any thing more.


George Halsey Perley: Does the government of Newfoundland contribute any subsidy for this service?


Wilfrid Laurier: They contribute a like subsidy.
Steam service-Canada and South Africa, $146,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This service is performed by the Elder-Dempster Company; the speed of the vessels is ten and eleven knots; the service is monthly from Montreal, calling at Quebec in summer, and from St. John, calling at Halifax in winter.


John Dowsley Reid: Have we a trade representative in South Africa?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is our trade with South Africa developing?


Wilfrid Laurier: Not very much. This service was inaugurated about 1903. Since then the trade has fluctuated between $1,700,000 and $2,354,000 last year.


William Cameron Edwards: What is the general character of the imports and exports in our trade with South Africa?


Wilfrid Laurier: I have no information at hand to enable me to answer that.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Does the colony contribute towards this service?


Wilfrid Laurier: No. '


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Have they been asked?


Wilfrid Laurier: This service was inaugurated shortly after the war, and the South African colonies were so disjointed that it was hardly possible to expect them to contribute. Now that a union has been formed it may be possible to have joint action, but no steps have yet been taken towards that end.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Will the Prime Minister take up the question at the Colonial Conference?


Wilfrid Laurier: We will see if it may be possible to have any trade with them.


William Cameron Edwards: In granting subsidies to steamship lines between Canada and other countries the most serious consideration should be given to the character of the products interchanged. If the products coming from these countries to Canada are such as would come into direct competition with the products of our own people, the question of the cost of production in these other countries, the rate of wages paid, &e., should be most carefully looked into.	*>


Wilfrid Laurier: The chief object of these subsidies is to push Canadian exports in the markets of other countries, and up to the present no one has questioned the advisability of that. If we do that we must be prepared to take what other countries send us. We have little to expect from South Africa in that respect, because the chief products are fruits and wines. Last year we imported from South Africa 24,000,000 pounds of raw sugar.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: There are a number of steamship subsidies, each for a small amount, between local points in the eastern provinces, which in the aggregate amount to a large sum. The only subsidy of such a kind on the inland waters is between Pelee island and the mainland, which of course is an absolute necessity. There are many ports on the lakes which have not communication with each other, and would the Prime Minister be willing to grant local subsidies the same as is done in the eastern provinces?


Wilfrid Laurier: Certainly, if the conditions are similar. For instance, if there is any place in Lambton county where the people are isolated and without railways, and where they can only communicate with the rest of the world by steamers, we would do it right away,.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I have in mind places along the Great Lakes which I believe are similarly situated to those places in the eastern provinces, and which would be materially assisted by such a subsidy.


Wilfrid Laurier: If the people have no communication with the outside, they ought to have it by all means.
insula between the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the Baie de Chaleur. It has been without railway communication, although this year a railway is to be opened up to Gaspe basin. The place has been absolutely isolated, and this was the only means of communication they had all the year round.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I quite understand that, but I have in mind places in my own riding such as Grand Bend, a village^ 14 miles from a railway, or Bayfield, 15 miles from one, and many others along the Great Lakes. On the Atlantic coast they are well supplied with steamboat communication, but in the inland waters there is little assistance.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Take Little Current or Manitowaning on the island, they have no communication at all.
Steam service from the opening to the closing of navigation in 1911, between Port Mul-grave, St. Peter's, Irish Cove and Marble Mrvrm+fnn a.nrl other i>orts OT1 thA liras d. Ur
lakes, $6,000.


George Halsey Perley: What system is there for looking over these different services each year, and seeing whether they are required? Sometimes in looking at the estimates it has appeared to me that once you had an item of this kind in the estimates, it was there for ever.


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not think that these services could be dispensed with. All these places are isolated, they have no means of railway accommodation or communication with the outside world except through the steamships. The population is not large and unless they are assisted in some way they will have less frequent communication or none at all.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In many of these places, the population grows, the industries increase sufficiently to warrant boats calling there at regular times, and getting trade. That is the case on the upper lakes. One would expect that in some of these places on the coast there would he the same development as in the inland portions of the country, and that there would come a time when this service might be carried on without the assistance of a subsidy.


Wilfrid Laurier: My hon. friend is aware that the population of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia has not increased within the last 20 years, and the government has not been .sufficiently long in office to get it increased.
Steam service from the opening to the closing of navigation in 1911, between Gasp6 basin and Dalhonsie or Campbellton, $15,000.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is a case of the kind I mentioned just now. The county of Gaspe is at the end of the pen-


George Halsey Perley: The right hon. gentleman says that these are isolated communities which need this service. I am not objecting to the service, hut what I want to know is whether the department has any system of looking into these different services so

as to ascertain whether these subsidies are still required. What the hon. member for Grey (Mr. Sproule) has said with reference to the inland waters might be very true with regard to some of these services, and the subsidy alone be sufficient to sustain them. Because we give a subsidy for two or three years, should not mean that we should give it for ever.


Wilfrid Laurier: I hope they will not go on for ever. The port of Mul-grave is on the strait of Canso and has very little population. St. Peters in Cape Breton is a small fishing village, and Irish Cove is in the same position. There has been no increase of population such as would warrant dispensing with the service.


George Halsey Perley: I was not referring to this particular item but to the general policy.


Wilfrid Laurier: The department has to take each case by itself, and up to the present has not come to a conclusion that it can dispense with this assistance.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The information given us to-night does not correspond with that given us from time to time when we are asked to vote money to improve these harbours. Then we are always told that they are important places, rapidly growing, and on that account it is absolutely necessary to spend a lot of money there. But if they be growing, one would naturally expect that the time would come when it would not be necessary to give these subsidies, and the trade would be self-sustaining.


Wilfrid Laurier: When a place is growing we ask for a wharf, and when it is not growling we ask for assistance.


George Halsey Perley: Take the items 197 to 200. They all seem to be for service between Mulgrave and other ports.


Wilfrid Laurier: Mulgrave is the point of distribution, and is the point of connection between the mainland and Cape Breton.
Steam service between Prince Rupert, B.C., and Queen Charlotte island, five-sixths of $7,600.


Wilfrid Laurier: This has the merit of novelty. The contractor is the Grand Trunk Pacific. In the months of November, December, January, February and March there are not less than two round trips each month from Prince Rupert, British Columbia, calling at Port Simpson, Naas Bay, Stewart and various other places and back to Prince Rupert; and during the remaining seven months in the year not less than four round trips each month upon the same route.
Mr, PERLEY.
Steamship service between Prince Edward Island and Great Britain, five-sixths of $7,500.


George Halsey Perley: How long has this been in operation?


Wilfrid Laurier: For more than 10 years. It was stopped the last two or three years as we could not get any company to take it at the price. The contractors are the Manchester liners. The steamers are the 'Manchester Shipper' and 'Manchester Trader' and 'Manchester Spinner.'


George Halsey Perley: Are there any arrangements for cold storage?


Wilfrid Laurier: There are ventilating fans in all the vessels and cold storage on the 'Manchester Trader.'


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many trips do the steamers make in the year?


Wilfrid Laurier: Three trips, sailing September 22, October 25 and November 26.
Steam service during the year 1911, between. Quebec and Blanc Sablon, calling at ports and places along the northern shores of the River St. Lawrence between such terminals, $20,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many trips are made?


Wilfrid Laurier: There are four ships, the ' King Edward,' ' the ' Resti-gouche,' the ' Aranmore ' and the ' Savoy.' This is the subsidy I was mentioning a moment ago. The people served under this subsidy have absolutely no communication with the outside world except by this line. They are strung along the north shore of the St. Lawrence below Tadousac and as far as Blanc Sablon on the shore of Labrador.


John Dowsley Reid: Is this Holliday Bros.?


Wilfrid Laurier: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It is now twelve o'clock, and I think we have done a good day's work and might ask for an adjournment.


Wilfrid Laurier: Might we not finish these this evening?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We are not much more than half through them yet. I think we have done a good day's work.
Some resolutions reported.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved the adjournment of the House.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What business to-morrow?


Wilfrid Laurier: My colleague the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) will take up railway resolutions.
On motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, House adjourned at 12 o'clock, midnight.


Thursday, May 11, 1911.