1910-02-07

Mr. SINCLAIR moved:: That the second report of the Marine ami Fisheries Committee be now concurred in.
He said: This report recommends that 4,000 copies of the evidence taken last summer by Commander Wakeham, in connection with the lobster industry, be printed for distribution.


Mr. E. N. LEWIS.: In reference to the report of the Marine and Fisheries Committee, I wish to ask the government a question; and in this connection I wish to call the attention of the hon. minister in charge of the Marine Department to the recent saving of life off Cape Hatteras which was reported in the daily papers.


Mr. SPEAKER.: That is not relevant to the question before the Chair.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 133) to incorporate the Merchants' Bank of Canada Pension Fund.- Mr. Doherty.
Bill (No. 134) for the relief of Hope Eileen Moreland Drinkle.-Mr. McCarthy.

Mr.  E. N.@: LEWIS moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 135) to amend the Immigration Act-


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: Explain.


Edward Norman Lewis: The first section directs that immigrants when they land in this country shall be examined for weapons which the citizens of Canada are not allowed to carry,
and that each immigrant shall be furnished with a printed document in his own language explaining to him, as shall also be done viva voce, that he shall not be allowed to carry such weapons. The first thing an immigrant after landing sees displayed in the windows of the second-hand stores of the port, are rows of revolvers, dirks, knives, and other weapons which ordinary Canadians are not permitted to use; and consequently he imagines that in this to him wild western country it is necessary for him to be armed with some of these weapons. The second section is an addition to the Bill I brought in before, and is in the line of the few remarks I made in the debate on the address at the beginning of this session, as to the class of immigrants that should be allowed to land in this country; and it reads as follows:
From and after the first day of January, 1911, natives of Europe south of 44 degrees north latitude and east of 20 degrees east longitude, and natives of Turkey in Asia, shall be prohibited from entering in and settling in Canada.
I contend that this country should in this respect take warning by the example of that great country to the south of us. Originally the slavery question was a very heavy and dark looking question to the citizens of the United States; but that question is overshadowed by another serious menace in the immigration of people from Southern Europe. Reports state that the average citizen of the United States is deteriorating physically, mentally and morally, of course on the average taking in all foreigners. Sir. we do not want immigrants to come here to hew our wood, draw our water, plough our 6elds and dig our coal alone. We want them to be one with the happy, free and independent citizens of Canada in forming a nation; and I contend that the only yay to do this is to keep out all people except those of western Europe who have the same hereditary as ourselves.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Mr. FOSTER.: Before the orders of the day are called, I would like to ask the Minister of Railways if he has inquired with reference to the return which was ordered by the House some time ago for papers' relating to the alleged securing of distribution of patronage.


Mr. GRAHAM.: I expect to have it in a day or two. I have wired for all the information.



WINNIPEG POST OFFICE.

Mr. A. HAGGART.: I wish to put a question to the Postmaster General with re-

gard to the post office in Winnipeg, the outer door of which has been closed. The latch string has hung on the outside for 20 years, and it has been a great convenience for the people to get their mail on going to and coming from church on Sunday. It is announced by a Winnipeg newspaper that it was closed yesterday for the first time, and remains closed. I would like to ask the Postmaster General if that is the case, and if it is the intention to keep it closed?


Mr. LEMIEUX.: I received a telegram the other day! from some Winnipeg gentlemen protesting against the change that has taken place. I must say that it is a regulation which is in force in all the large cities in the west, and is done at the request of various religious organizations.


Alexander Haggart: The Winnipeg post offlee has been closed?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am informed it has.


Alexander Haggart: Is it the intention .of the government to keep it closed in spite of the protest of the people?


Rodolphe Lemieux: The matter is under consideration just now.


Alexander Haggart: But in the meantime it is closed.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is closed on Sunday.


Alexander Haggart: How long will the department keep the matter under consideration? This is a serious matter because it is the centre of a large commercial population. People who go to Winnipeg on Sundays


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: The hon. gentleman cannot discuss the question at this stage.


Alexander Haggart: I am not discussing it, but I would like to get a more definite answer from the minister.



WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY.

Edward Norman Lewis: Representing, as I do, one of the largest upper lake ports in Canada, and being greatly interested in the traffic of the port of Montreal and the channels of the St. Lawrence river-


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: The hon. gentleman can only put a question at this stage.


Edward Norman Lewis: I want to ask the government whether


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: It must be an urgent question, or one referring to the business of the House. At this stage, only questions of urgency are allowed, or those relating to the business of the House. Of other questions notice must be given, in Mr A. HAGGART.
order that the minister may be prepared to answer.


Edward Norman Lewis: In the papers last Saturday there appeared an account of saving through wireless telegraphy of a great loss of life off Cape Hatteras, and I would ask the government if they will now take means to protect our great trade route, the channel of the St. Lawrence, and other great routes. It seems to me very important that we should put on shore wireless telegraphy stations, because it will be very mu,ch against the interest of Canada for loss to. occur.


Wilfrid Laurier: It is our intention to protect the trade route of Canada by means of the telegraph, and a navy also.



THE DAUPHIN POST OFFICE.

Mr. CAMPBELL.: The closing of this post office at Winnipeg reminds me of a question.


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: The hon.	gentleman
must confine himself to the rules of the House.


Glenlyon Campbell: I wish to ask a question of the Postmaster General.


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: I have warned the House under the rules what questions can be put at this stage.


Glenlyon Campbell: Am I not in order, Mr. Speaker?


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: The hon. gentleman knows the rules of the House.


Glenlyon Campbell: I wish to ask the Postmaster General with regard to the opening of the post office in Dauphin. The building has been completed, and when is the office going to be opened?


Rodolphe Lemieux: If the office has been completed, it should be opened very shortly. Is my hon. friend informed that the building is completed?


Glenlyon Campbell: I understand so.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If it is, it will be opened immediately.



DRY DOCK AT PORT ARTHUR.

Mr. BOYCE.: I wish to ask the Minister of Public Works when we may expect the return of the papers concerning the application of a western delegation of shipbuilders for a dry dock, that is the application for a bonus or a subsidy for a dry dock at Port Arthur. The order of the House was issued about the 25th of November.


Mr. PUGSLEY.: The return with regard tc the Sault Ste. Marie dry dock has been

brought down. I will inquire as to the other, I hope to have it within a few days.
THE; MARKHAM POST OFFICE.


Mr. WALLACE.: I wish to ask the Minister of Public Works when he expects to hand the Markham post office over to the department. I understand it has been finished about eight months.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is my hon. friend aware that the fittings are all in yet?


Thomas George Wallace: I am aware that it has been finished eight months.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I will look into the matter. Of course, the building is not finished until the fittings are all in.



THE LACHUTE POST OFFICE.

Mr. PERLEY.: I wish to ask the minister with reference to the post office at Lachute. It has been completed for several weeks, the fittings are all in, and the whole building was ready for use a month ago. When is it intended to use it?


William Pugsley: I think it would be much1 more convenient if questions of this character were put on the notice paper, in order that we may have time to obtain the information from the department. But I will have that looked into.



MAIL SERVICE IN SYDNEY.

Mr. MADDIN.: I desire to ask the Postmaster General when we may expect a return to the motion for all the papers, correspondence and documents in connection with the free mail delivery service in Sydney, the order for which was granted by this House on the 6th of December, last.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I will take note of my hon. friend's question. I think we have to get the consent of the Secretary of State.



IMPROVED PAPER MACHINERY COMPANY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on Bill (No. 67) respecting the Improved Paper Machinery Company.-Mr. Worthington.
On section 1,
Power to Commissioner of Patents to re-" ceive fee and extend duration of patent.
Mr. CARVELL.: Unfortunately I was not present when the Bill was before the Committee on Private Bills. May I, therefore, ask the hon. member who has charge of this Bill (Mr. Worthington) to explain the reasons for asking for this legislation. Perhaps I may be permitted to say, we have a
great many applications to parliament in recent years to renew patents which have become void for one reason or another. A Bill was passed a short time ago concerning a case in which the trouble, I am told, arose from the fact that, though the amount necessary for the renewal had been sent to the bank of Montreal, yet, through the mistake of a clerk, it was not forwarded to the patent office. In such a case, it is only reasonable, perhaps, that the patent should be renewed. What I particularly would like to know, in the present case, is whether the patentee commenced manufacturing within two years, and otherwise complied with the patent law. And, was the difficulty simply an omission to pay the fee within the time-which, I understand, expired on January 26, 1909-or is this a case in which a patent has become void, making this a Bill merely to give back rights which the patentee has forfeited through his own negligence to comply with the law?


Mr. WORTHINGTON.: This Bill was before the Committee on Private Bills at its last meeting and was accepted by the committee with the concurrence of the Minister of Agriculture. This was an exceptional case in which the holder of the patent was not responsible for the lapse of the patent.


Mr. EMMERSON.: What were the circumstances?


Arthur Norreys Worthington: This is a very large company which has a solicitor employed especially for the purpose of keeping these patents in force. Through the negligence of this solicitor, one patent was allowed to lapse-it was misplaced. The solicitor recognized that the fault was his own, and offered to compensate the company. The company has built a large plant at Sherbrooke-it is one of Sherbrooke's largest industries-and is now prepared to manufacture this improved paper machinery, in fact has begun to do it.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Did they begin ihe manufacture within two years from the granting of their patent?


Arthur Norreys Worthington: Yes.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: In Canada?


Arthur Norreys Worthington: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: If this has passed under the cognizance of the Minister of Agriculture, I think that is the main thing.


Arthur Norreys Worthington: The Minister of Agriculture took the case into consideration and decided that it was an exceptional case in which the company was not to blame, and for that reason the Bill should be allowed to pass, with the understanding that a proviso at the end of the Bill should be withdrawn.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



LTNSTITUT DE NOTRE DAME DES MISSIONS.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on Bill (No. 80) to incorporate L'Institut de Notre Dame des Missions.-Mr. W. M. Martin.
On section 7, subsection 2, as amended:
The annual value of the real estate held in Canada by or in trust for the corporation shall not exceed fifty thousand dollars.
George Eulas Foster: What does that mean- ' the annual value of the real estate?' Will the hon. member who has charge of the Bill please explain?


Mr. W. M. MARTIN.: In the Committee on Miscellaneous Private Bills it was pointed out that the power to hold real estate to the value of only $50,000 was very little in the case of a corporation such as this. Especially is this the case when you consider the relative values of real estate in western Canada and in eastern Canada. The object of the amendment in this case, as I understand it, is to allow the corporation to hold property which will produce an annual revenue of $50,000.


George Eulas Foster: That would be a pretty large estate.


William Melville Martin: When it is considered that this corporation, or voluntary society, at the present time holds real estate in something like eleven different places in the provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan, it will be seen that it does not need to hold much in each place to make a total holding of $50,000 annually. And, from my own personal knowledge of this society, I can say that it will not take very many holdings such as they have at the present time to make a total value of three or four hundred thousand annually.


Mr. JOHN HAGGART.: An annual value of $50,000 represents about $1,250,000 capital value.


William Melville Martin: Money in the west is worth 7 per cent if not 8 per cent, and if you figure it on that basis it only makes about $700,000.


George Eulas Foster: This is not a land company, is it?


William Melville Martin: In order to carry out the purposes for which they are incorporated it is necessary' for them to hold land. I know they have acquired land in Regina, worth many thousand dollars and they have lately let a contract in that city for the building of a convent which will cost probably $50,000 or $60,000.


Mr. BLAIN.: Under what charter have they been conducting their business in the other western provinces?


Arthur Norreys Worthington: 


William Melville Martin: I am informed they have a charter in Manitoba which was granted about 1882 and under which they have been operating up to the present time. They have no charter in Alberta or Saskatchewan, and it is the intention to operate under the proposed new charter in all the western provinces.


Richard Blain: Why should it not come under the provincial government?


William Melville Martin: They would have to have three or four different charters.


Mr. HUGHES.: Inasmuch as the control of education belongs to the different provinces, should not this charter be obtained from the provincial government? I ask the Prime Minister what the rule is?


Wilfrid Laurier: I have not looked into the Bill and I am not prepared to express an opinion on it. It is private legislation.


Richard Blain: Was the question of provincial rights brought up in the committee? Would it not be better in matters of this kind that are purely within the jurisdiction of the provinces, that the local legislatures should deal with them? As I understand, the Bill simply asks authority to do business in the new provinces, not in any other part of Canada, and if that be the case why should they not obtain a charter from the provincial legislature?


Samuel Hughes: All these institutions are after government grants for education; they will naturally be under the control of the provinces in relation to education; they should be inspected by provincial inspectors, they are subject to provincial laws in relation to provisions for safety, &c., and if we grant charters to institutions of this kind, we are trespassing on the rights of the provinces in these matters. The whole control of matters relating to education should be left in the hands of the provinces as it is a provincial matter relating to the education of the youth of the country. I think the Bill has no place in this parliament.


William Melville Martin: This is clearly an interprovincial Bill. This corporation, as it will be, is not asking anything more from this parliament than any railway corporation does when it asks for the privilege of building lines connecting two or three provinces. We cannot be expected to go into every province in the Dominion where we want to carry on business and ask a charter. We decided to come to this parliament and ask a Dominion charter. There is nothing in the Bill dealing with provincial rights, and if my hon. friend from Peel will go into the western provinces, he will find there is no question of provincial rights there to-day.


Richard Blain: I am not stirring up any question of provincial rights, my hon. friend is doing that by the manner in which he refers to it. This should come clearly within the province of the provincial government, and the Dominion parliament should not be asked to grant charters of this kind.


Henry Robert Emmerson: My hon. friend will see by section 11 that is all provided for.


Richard Blain: Yes, I saw that.


Mr. CONMEE.: My hon. friend will see that this company must come here to get this charter, they cannot get it elsewhere. No legislature can give a charter for the incorporation of a company to operate in another province, that is interprovincial. This corporation propose to operate in three different provinces, and therefore must come here.


Richard Blain: I understand they have been doing business in Manitoba under a local charter.


James Conmee: Yes, but now they want to extend and they have a right to come here and get this charter.


Mr. DANIEL.: In section 7 power is asked to purchase or otherwise acquire certain kinds of property, and it speaks of real or personal and corporeal or incorporeal property. What is incorporeal property?


William Melville Martin: I suppose what is usually meant, bonds, securities and mortgages.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Would that not be considered personal property?


William Melville Martin: I have no objection to changing the word to personal.


John Waterhouse Daniel: It looks as though it might refer to angels floating in the air, or something of that kind. I do not see what kind of property could be called incorporeal, when you have real and personal and almost every other kind mentioned.


George Eulas Foster: It would seem to me that the proper wording for subclause 2 would be to state the amount of real estate they may hold. You introduce an element of difference and possibly of some difficulty by not giving a statement of the annual value of the real estate they may hold. If you have any basis on which to calculate it, calculate it on that basis.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Say not exceeding


George Eulas Foster: And I think you should say the value of real estate ' so held.' That is for the purposes of the corporation as shown in the preceding clauses. I do not suppose you intend this to become a land dealing company.


Samuel Hughes: Under this clause they could become a banking or loan society or a land speculating institution, [DOT] they could do anything they had a mind to. I would move that this Bill stand over in order that it may receive more careful consideration than it has. It is- a very dangerous Bill from many points of view. In the first place I maintain it conflicts with provincial rights, inasmuch as it is incorporating by the Dominion government an institution for the education of the youth of the country. That is clearly in violation of provincial rights. They can go to the provincial government and obtain their charter. Personally I have objection to incorporating any institutions of this kind under Dominion charters; the province is the proper place for that, in order that they may be subject to proper provincial inspection. All schools are supposed to be subject to provincial inspection, whether they are private or public schools. If we grant this charter we place this school outside of the control or discipline of the province and they will be under no obligation to observe the laws of the province except under one clause, in relation to the control of property. I do not think the Bill should pass until it has received more careful consideration. We all know that when Bills affecting any religious corporation are brought before the House, like this Sunday Observance Bill that we had before parliament a few days ago, we are told that the church is behind them and we stand to one side. I do not think that a Bill of this kind should be allowed to be enacted by this House and I therefore oppose it.


Mr. MONK.: I do not see how the reasoning of my hon. friend (Mr. Hughes) would apply to a case like this. The* moment the fact is indicated to us that this society intends extending its operations beyond one province, we have the jurisdiction to incorporate it.


George Eulas Foster: It has institutions in two provinces.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: It has institutions operating in two provinces, as my hon. friend from North Toronto (Mr. Foster) says, and it may wish to extend its charitable and religious institutions beyond the limits of one province. Therefore, why should we not have power to incorporate it here? We could not incorporate, strictly speaking, a society of that kind intending to operate only in one province. I do not think we could give it legal entity. As a matter of fact we are incorporating this society and placing it under the clear jurisdiction of the province with respect to educational matters. Surely my hon. and gallant friend from Haliburton and Victoria will not deny that? What is the abject of this society? Its object is to do educational,

charitable and other eleemosynary work. Would my hon. friend say that this places it above the laws of the province in respect to education? Surely it is absolutely subject to its laws in the same way as an individual or a purely provincial creation would be. Therefore, it seems to me that the objection of my hon. and gallant friend is not well taken." There is no privilege conferred by this Bill beyond it. It indicates the object of this new creation. It falls consequently under all the laws of the province respecting education, and if it went beyond in any respect it would be unconstitutional.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am very much impressed by the statement of the hon. member for Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk). I think that if the hon. member for Victoria and Haliburton (Mr. Hughes) would consider the course he is taking in this matter he would see that this is not education as it is referred to in section 93 of the British North America Act. That refers to public education; this is a purely private matter. The applicants for this Bill wish to educate their children, or rather provide institutions at which children may be educated, but it is purely private. It has nothing to do with public education and it has nothing to do with education in the sense in which it is referred to by the British North America Act. I would call my hon. friend's attention.to the fact that many bodies have been incorporated by this parliament with practically the same objects in view as those for which this Bill is introduced, and if it be true that these applicants wish to do business in all of the provinces of Canada excepting Manitoba, they are practically compelled to come here. The society might possibly get one charter in Saskatchewan and another in Alberta, but there would be no possibility of working them under one general head. It would be two distinct corporations. In going over the provisions of this Bill it will be seen that they are similar to the provisions of a Bill passed by this parliament in 1884, one with which the hon. member for Victoria and Haliburton will not quarrel, and that was a Bill for the incorporation of the Methodist Church of Canada. The Methodist Church of Canada consisted probably of corporations in each of the provinces as far as I know. All these different corporations were banded together in one and very much the same provisions were incorporated in the Bill as were asked for in this Bill. This Bill gives this corporation the right to hold property.


Richard Blain: As I understand that Bill was to amalgamate certain different religious bodies into one.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Exactly, and so does this.


Richard Blain: No.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: 


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Absolutely so. There is a body in Manitoba that has a corporate right, there is a body in Saskatchewan which has no corporate right, and there is property held by different persons in trust for these bodies. There is another body in Alberta holding property in trust. But the same principle is involved in each case; they are trying to get these three bodies incorporated under a general head and there is provision by which they may hold property, borrow money on their property, and the parties who hold property in trust are authorized to convey it to this corporation. It seems to me that is exactly the power that the .Methodist Church got. I think that the hon. member for Victoria and Haliburton, if he considers_ these matters, will say that if it is fair in. one case it is fair in the other. The only thing I would suggest would be an amendment to clause 2 of section 7. It is, to my mind, unreasonable to limit the holdings of this society to $50,000. I do not know what amount would be proper, but the hon. gentleman who has charge of the Bill can state what, in his opinion, would be a proper amount. With that change, it seems to me, the Bill is not only necessary for the work, but it is perfectly legitimate and it should pass.


Samuel Hughes: The parallel which has been drawn by the hon. member for Car-leton, New Brunswick, (Mr. Carvell) does not hold. Unless I can get some further legal knowledge from the two brilliant legal minds which have just preceded me, I must still hold to my view that this Bill clearly trangresses the rights and duties of . the provinces. 'The Bill declares that:
The objects of the corporation shall be the instruction and the Christian education of children and other works of charity, such as work rooms

This is a bad piece of composition, I should imagine, but the objects can be very well understood

-orphanages, refuges and other similar undertakings, and the advancement, in other ways, of education and religion, charity and benevolence.
These are all very proper, but the education of the youth of the land comes clearly under the power of the provincial authorities, and the point 1 want made clear to my mind is that if this Bill is passed in its present form will the provinces have any


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Does the hon. gentleman mean to convey to the committee the idea that the private education of pupils, or the conduct of private schools, comes, under the British North America Act, within the jurisdiction of the local government?


Samuel Hughes: There is no private educational institution in Ontario, or in any other province of the Dominion of Canada, but is under inspection by the


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 'I would like my hon. friend to answer the question.
Mr. HUGHES Just let my hon. friend wait until I am finished and he will get his answer. There is not one which is not, under the law, under inspection for fire purposes, for educational purposes and for other purposes.


Henry Robert Emmerson: Look at section 11.


Samuel Hughes: For educational purposes they are under the control of the provinces


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Section 11 says that all provincial laws apply.


Henry Robert Emmerson: My hon. friend from Victoria and Haliburton seems to conjure up something that is not here at all. I know he has strong views with respect to education, but he would deprive school children of a Christian education because he will not permit it in the public school, and he wishes to shut out such education from private schools. We have these private schools in every province in Canada under all denominations. These applicants are here simply to ask for incorporation.


Richard Blain: Are the private schools to which my hon. friend refers under Dominion charter?


Henry Robert Emmerson: Some might very well be.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Mount Allison is.


Henry Robert Emmerson: We have in New Brunswick, as my hon. friend from Car-leton says, Mount Allison in Sackville, in the county of Westmorland. I see no reason why any of them should not come to this parliament and ask for incorporation. Such an institution as the University of Acadia in Wolfville, in Nova Scotia, does not operate beyond the confines of that province. They do not need any Dominion charter, but, this society purposes operating in at least three of the provinces and, therefore, they should have incorporation from this parliament. In section 11 we say that the exercise of its powers shall be subject to the laws of any province it may operate in, as to the acquisition and holding of land by religious corporations in so far as such laws apply, but even without that I think it would be subject to provincial law's in that respect. It does seem that the point taken by the hon. member (Mr. Foster) with respect to the extent of the value of the property is opportune and that there is ambiguity as to what ' annual value ' means.


Samuel Hughes: After such a disquisition trom the learned authority on divinity matters-


Henry Robert Emmerson: You are convicted.


Samuel Hughes: A gentleman who is so well posted on all the needs of religious corporations, who has gone to Sunday School, and has had all the benefits of a Christian education as exemplified in his life and bearing, I would be bold indeed to appear to hesitate to accept his conclusions. But, section 11 only applies to the holding of land by religious corporations, and I am not speaking of the holding of lands at all. What I want to know is: If these institutions are formed in a province and should there be public schools, will the children attending them be subject to inspection under the laws of the province? If that is made clear, I have no objection to the Bill. But I require something better than the authority of the learned law lecturer from Laval, or of the luminary from the valley of 'St. John, or of the divinity expert from Westmorland, to convince me of that.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: These are private schools, and should they become public schools, it is for the people of the western provinces to look after them. Until my hon. friend can show that they are public schools, his argument amounts to nothing.


Wilfrid Laurier: Education is under the control of the provinces in relation to public schools which are maintained by taxation. But, in all British countries it is the privilege of British subjects to maintain their own schools if they do not want to send their children to the public schools. In some countries children are compelled to go to public schools, but in British countries parents have the privilege of sending their children to private schools, and that right has never been denied. There are many such private schools in the provinces where nothing but public schools prevail under the authority of the province. But with those voluntary private schools there is no interference, and I do not think this Bill departs from the principle acknowledged in all British countries.


Samuel Hughes: I am content if there is nothing in this Bill which will interfere with these schools being liable to the province, just the same as if they had a provincial charter.


Wilfrid Laurier: If these schools become public schools they will be under the control of the province, and so far as education is concerned, no authority other than the province has a right to control them.
Mi'. DANIEL. I am not a lawyer, but I do feel that the arguments of the hon. member (Mr. Carvell), and the hon. mem-



ber (Mr. Emmerson) have not convinced me. The hon. member (Mr. Carvell) said that Mount Allison University had a Dominion charter because it operates in more than one province.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The hon. gentleman misunderstood me. I say that the Methodist institution at Sackville is managed under a Dominion charter because it is the property of the Methodist Church of Canada, which is incorporated by this parliament. The Mount Allison institution is controlled by Dominion charter in that way, and not because it operates in different provinces.


John Waterhouse Daniel: As I understand it the Universities of McGill and Laval have provincial charters and yet they operate throughout the whole Dominion. I was not aware that Mount Allison University is incorporated by Dominion charter, but I suppose I will have to take the word of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Carvell) for that.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have not said that Mount Allison University was incorporated by the federal parliament.


George Eulas Foster: We all thought you did.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I say it is the property of the Methodist Church of Canada, and as the Methodist Church of Canada has a Dominion charter the university is operated under a Dominion charter.


John Waterhouse Daniel: Does the hon. gentleman say that Mount Allison is operating under a Dominion charter?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes, so far as it is the property of the Methodist Church of Canada.


John Waterhouse Daniel: It either has a Dominion charter or it has not. Does the hon. gentleman say it has a Dominion charter?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have said it is controlled- by the Methodist Church which has a Dominion charter.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I am referring to the university and not to the church. I have been trying to get a straight answer, but the hon. member (Mr. Carvell) appears to be too good a lawyer to be able to give me such an answer. Perhaps his experience up above in another part of this building has made him so apt that he is able to give what we might call an evasive answer. Does the hon. gentleman refuse to answer the question, yes or no?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have answered it three times already.


John Waterhouse Daniel: As to the merits of this Bill, I have nothing to say, but I do believe that if there is nothing to be said in its favour other than what has been said by the hon. members for Carleton and, Westmorland, then, the reasons for its in-Mr. DANIEL.
corporation by this parliament are very weak indeed. I would still like to inquire what is the nature of ' incorporeal property,' because I think that if there is no such thing we had better strike out these words.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I would suggest that if the hon. member sends to the library for any law dictionary, he will have no difficulty in the finding the meaning of ' incorporeal property.' It is elementary.


John Waterhouse Daniel: If it is elementary, the hon. gentleman might give us the information. I have read in Shakespeare of ' incorporeal spirits,' but I have not heard of ineoporeal property.


Samuel Hughes: Might I ask if it is within the authority of this parliament to incorporate incorporeal property? I did not know that our authority extended beyond the confines of the nether world.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I do not think there is anything in the British North America Act about incorporeal property.


Samuel Hughes: The language of subsection 1 is very broad and very peculiar. I beg to move that it be amended so as to read in the last line: 'for the uses and purposes of the corporation.' This would make the meaning clear. Will the promoter please explain the meaning of the word ' whatsoever ' which appears so frequently in this clause?


William Pugsley: It is like many words lawyers use-it does neither harm nor good.


George Eulas Foster: That is when they charge by the word?


William Pugsley: Yes. They are like chips in porridge.


Samuel Hughes: Suppose property were willed to this institution in opposition to the laws of a province, would its charter override the law's of the province?


John Waterhouse Daniel: I have been looking up the word ' incorporeal,' and I wish to give the House the authority.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: What is the authority?


John Waterhouse Daniel: Webster's Dictionary.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: You should get a law' dictionary.


John Waterhouse Daniel: This is from the library, and therefore, I presume it is authoritative. The meaning given of the word ' incorporeal ' is, first, 'not corporeal'; second,
' not consisting of matter, not having a material body, immaterial.' I do not see any good in putting anything immaterial into this Bill. Then, as relating to law, it says: 'Existing only in contemplation of law, not capable of actual visible seizing or

possession, not being an object of sense, intangible.' If that is the meaning of the word, I think we might better leave it out entirely, and let the rest of the clause translate itself.


Samuel Hughes: Will the promoter of the Bill please explain the meaning of this term? We should treat all these corporations on the same basis, as they are neither kickable nor damnable.


John Waterhouse Daniel: I move that the words ' corporeal or incorporeal ' be omitted from clause 7.


William Melville Martin: I object to the usual legal phraseology that is used in granting powers to corporations being cut out of this, particular section. These words are found in many similar Bills, as I could show if I had time to look them up. There is certainly no harm done in leaving them in the Bill.


Samuel Hughes: There are a number of minor legal authorities in the House. There is the law lecturer for Laval; I would like to hear his view on the matter.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I am not prepared to take part in the discussion.


Samuel Hughes: I am informed on good authority that the young legal luminary from Regina, brilliant as he may be in politics, is not an authority in law, when he says that ' corporeal or incorporeal ' are words used in a Bill in relation to property.


William Melville Martin: If my hon. friend will take ..the trouble to post himself, he will find that all property is divided into corporeal and incorporeal, and that division has existed for a thousand years. I object to striking out legal phraseology which is used in other acts of incorporation.


John Waterhouse Daniel: If the legal members of the House, or any other members, will tell us what these -words mean, I have no objection to withdraw my amendment. But nobody seems able to tell us that they mean anything. The dictionary says they mean nothing. They are immaterial.
Mr.. JAMESON. In a Bill of this nature we should not attempt to split hairs. While these words may have no meaning to the lay mind, as a matter of fact they have a very important place in the legal vocabulary, and I think the Bill should go through as it has been drafted.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 8,
George Eulas Foster: The words in the fourth line * or not ' should come out.
The corporation may also sell, convey, exchange, alienate, mortgage, lease or demise any property, real or personal, held by it, whether by way of investment for the uses 100J
and purposes mentioned in the next preceding section or not.
They are confined absolutely to certain purposes; therefore theTe is no reason why we should extend their powers in giving aid, and in buying and selling, not for the purposes of the corporation.


William Melville Martin: I agree that those words ' or not ' should come out; also the word ' whether ' in the third line.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.

[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (No. 96) respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. German.
On section 11:
11. Section 2 of chapter 55 of the statutes of 1900, section 2 of chapter 74 of the statutes of 1907, and section 2 of chapter 95 of the statutes of 1908 are repealed.
George Perry Graham: This is one of those sections repealing certain Acts. It is a little difficult to know at all times how far-reaching these are. It was agreed by the committee, I believe, that this section should be added to the Bill.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Nesbitt).: We asked the law clerk to examine it.


George Perry Graham: The Senate has introduced several amendments repealing certain sections, and such amendments may be more far-reaching than they seem to be. For instance, the Act of 1904 may be repealed. But, some work may have taken place under that Act, and if we repeal the Act in its entirety we may be doing something, the effect of which we hardly understand. But I think we discussed this with the Canadian Pacific railway representative, and it was agreed that no interest was injuriously affected. But these repealing clauses are dangerous sometimes.
Bill reported, and read the third time and passed.



CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY' COMPANY.

[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on Bill (No. 61) respecting the Canadian Northern Railway company.-Mr. Cash.
George Perry Graham: It may be as well to mention a formal point in case somebody should bring it up later. In the orders of the day there is a misprint under which this Bill is spoken of as ' An Act respecting the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company.' The word ' Ontario ' is there

by mistake. This Bill relates to the Canadian Northern Railway Company.
Bill reported, and read the third time and passed.



INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS CANAL AND CONSTRUCTION COMPANY.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. CONMEE moved the second reading of Bill (No. 119) to incorporate the International Waterways Canal and Construction Company.
William Pugsley: I think that as I raised some objection to this Bill when it was last under consideration, I ought to make a reference to what I understand is the present position of the Bill so far as the promoter is concerned. My hon. friend who has charge of the Bill (Mr. Conmee) has recognized the force of some of the objections which I raised to the Bill and he has authorized me to state to the House, and has said that he would state it also if necessary, that when the Bill goes to the committee he will state that he is quite willing to withdraw some of the objectionable provisions of the Bill, more particularly with regard to the Saskatchewan river being included, and also in regard to the definition of the word ' canal ' which he admits is altogether too broad. As there are some features of the Bill which might with advantage be adopted, and as the public interest may be served by incorporating a company with proper safeguards, I think it might be as well to let the Bill pass the second reading and go to a committee where all parties interested may be heard. I have had a communication from the secretary of the board of trade of Fort William. They are desirous of being heard and before the committee they and all other parties interested will have that opportunity. Having made these remarks I shall not further press any. objection to the second reading.


George Halsey Perley: I would like to have a definite announcement of the time when the Bill will come before the Railway Committee because the people have been writing and telephoning to me, objecting strongly to the passing of the Bill. I notice the minister referred particularly to the Saskatchewan end but these objections come from the Fort William end. They object seriously to it and claim that it will interfere with water-power and other rights in connection with Fort William and Port Arthur.


William Pugsley: I have no doubt that the chairman of the committee and the Minister of Railways will see that ample opportunity is given for all parties to be heard.


James Conmee: I am sending copies of the Bill with the proposed amendments to Mr. GRAHAM.
both Port Arthur and Fort William and will be glad to send them to any other places or interests of which I can learn.


Samuel Hughes: Why not send one to each member?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I entirely agree with what the hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. Pugsley) says with regard to the objection that he has to this Bill from several points of view. Coupled with the interference with the Saskatchewan river there are several interests which are affected by some of the extraordinary powers asked for by this Bill, and, therefore, I would ask the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham) to see that the date for the hearing of the Bill in committee is so fixed that all parties may have an opportunity to be heard. The powers asked for are of the widest possible nature, very much too broad, and inasmuch as the public and other interests do not seem to be safeguarded in any way, I think that the Bill calls for the severest criticism and the greatest caution. I would ask whether the Bill containing the amendments will be reprinted and distributed amongst members so that we can judge of the extent to which the hon. member for Thunder Bay and Rainy River proposes to moderate his Bill, because I hope the amendments will have the effect of moderating and not enlarging the scope of the powers asked for.


Richard Blain: I do not think it would be fair to ask the House to allow this Bill to go to the committee without an explanation from my hon. friend from Thunder Bay and Rainy River (Mr. Conmee). We know nothing whatever about these amendments. The most important clauses of the Bill were objected to by the hon. Minister of Public Works when it was before the House some time ago. I think my hon. friend who has charge of the Bill should state to the House now the changes that he is willing to allow in the Bill and the proposed amendments that he wishes the committee to consider.


James Conmee: I did not go into an explanation of the Bill to-day because I thought it was not necessary to take up the time of the House.


Richard Blain: Explain the changes in the Bill.


James Conmee: One change is to meet the views of the Minister of Public Works. He was of opinion, when the Bill was up a few days ago, that it might mean that the company would be given some control over waters that are now navigable that the company did not themselves improve. An amendment will be put in to make it cer-

tain that the company cannot have any such control. Then, the Bill extended the powers of the company to the Assiniboine river. That was an error in any case. It was copied from an old Bill introduced a few years ago.


Samuel Hughes: What is wrong with the Assiniboine river?


James Conmee: It was never the intention of the company to extend their works to the Assiniboine river, and they do not ask for that power.


Samuel Hughes: In what section is the Assiniboine river mentioned?


James Conmee: Subsection d of section
8.	That subsection is struck out altogether. To meet the views of the Minister of Public Works in regard to the Saskatchewan river, in which he stated that the government were likely to make some improvements, the company have cut out of the Bill all reference to the Saskatchewan river. Now, their western limit is Lake Winnipeg. Their operations do not go beyond that point.


Samuel Hughes: What change is made in subsection c?


James Conmee: Part of the second last line and the last line are stricken out: 'Winnipegosis and Manitoba, and in and along the Saskatchewan river/ In section 12, with regard to plans, before the company commence work provision was made that they should have the assent of the Governor in Council. Now, it is proposed that they shall have the approval of the Waterways Commission and also the Governor in Council.
Section 14 is struck out. Hon. gentlemen will see that section 14 was put in as a safeguard to prevent the company from getting any control over water-powers. Now, that section is struck out and a wider section is put in which, I think, will meet 'with the approval of the House. The proposed new section reads as follows:
Nothing in this Act shall be held to give the company a power or exclusive right to or over any water area, river, stream, lake, channel, or over any water privilege not * made, erected or constructed, or in course of construction by the company. All water areas, lakes, rivers, streams or water privileges affected by this Act that are not made, constructed, or in course of construction by the company shall remain in the same position in every respect as if this Act had not been passed.
I think that will remove any ground for such observations as fell from the hon. member for Algoma (Mr. Boyce) to the effect that the Bill gives this company too wide privileges. I venture the statement that he will not find on the statute books
anywhere a Bill incorporating either a .railway or a canal company which has as many good safeguards as are to be found in this Bill.


Richard Blain: What provision is made as to the waters of Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipegosis?
, Mr. CONMEE. It does not go near the waters of Lake Manitoba. The company have no control over any waters at all.


William Pugsley: It is proposed to strike out Lake Manitoba?


James Conmee: I will read section 1, which gives the interpretation of the word 'canal.' This Bill has been amended so as to remove the objections which the Minister of Public Works mentioned. Perhaps the language was too wide-I am not lawyer enough to say-I could not see any objection to it, but the minister did see something in it. Section 1 is now amended to read as follows:
' Canal ' includes lift-locks, channels, canal approaches, or other waterways excavated, erected or made by the company, and also includes every kind of work necessary to be done in respect to the canals, waterways or channels for the purpose of carrying out the objects of this Act.
It is there limited to the works that the company may themselves construct to whatever artificial work they may do. They get no control over any water-power. That interpretation of the word 'canal' removes beyond all doubt any possibility of the effect being as it was interpreted the other day when the Bill was before the House. If it does not, I may say to my hon. friends that this Bill has to go before the committee and that is the proper place to amend it. If there is any amendment that can be put in to protect the public with respect to powers or any suggestion that wall improve, so long as it does not destroy the Bill, I will be glad to have it carried out no matter from what member it comes.


Samuel Hughes: Is the hon. member going to have his amendments printed?


James Conmee: I think I can get a dozen copies of the Bill amended just as I have it here for distribution amongst members of the committee, if that will be satisfactory.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: I think the Bill should be re-printed so that the amendments will be available for general distribution. My experience has been that with regard to any Bills my hon. friend (Mr. Conmee) introduces or any amendments he may make it is in the public interest to give them the widest circulation possible. Therefore I think this Bill should be re-I printed and circulated widely. Does the

hon. gentleman amend the definition of the word 'power' in the Bill?


James Conmee: I have struck out the
words ' or supply ' in clause H.


Arthur Cyril Boyce: My hon. friend gives to the word 'power' a special and somewhat generous and general interpretation.


James Conmee: I do not care whether that interpretation is there or not. I do [DOT]not see what good it is; the lawyers put it there; I did not.


George Perry Graham: I am probably as familiar as any hon. member in the House outside of my hon. friend (Mr. Conmee) with the differences of opinion that have arisen as to water-powers in that vicinity. In the provincial legislature we had for a good many years disputes as to certain companies incorporated to develop Keke-beka Falls and the Kaministiqua river, and I point that out as a reason why the people in that vicinity might like to be heard on a Bill such as this. I have expressed no opinion on this Bill; I shall defer that until it is considered in committee, but I think we had better have the proposed amendmertts reprinted so that we will all know what they are. It will not take long and it will not cost much and it will be in the public interest. I have gone further than some gentlemen in the House may think proper in having Bills that are of a public nature referred to some committee so that the people interested may get a chance to be heard. I have not fol-, lowed parliamentary practice in that respect, but we are representing all the people here, and where there are interests involved it is well to give the people a chance to express their views. The chairman of the Railway Committee has taken that view and has fixed days for hearing the people interested in a certain Bill before the committee even though they themselves have not asked to be heard. I think you will find that the chairman of the committee will invite the representatives of any municipality interested to be present at a certain day so as to enable them to state their views. Already we have had communications from Fort William with respect to this Bill, and I think it would not be wise to proceed with it until that municipality has an opportunity to be represented, if it so desires. I think the Bill should be reprinted.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Do I understand the minister to say that this Bill shall be reprinted before it comes before the Railway Committee. Why not have it reprinted before it is referred to the committee so that we may know what we are doing?


Arthur Cyril Boyce: 


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: The question before the House is shall the Bill be referred to the committee?


George Perry Graham: I would make the suggestion that the clerk of the House should have the Bill reprinted and then we will have it in its reprinted form in the committee. That can be done without any red-tape.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the second time and referred to the Select Committee on Railways.


Mr. DANIEL:: 1.	Has the government made any arrangement in relation to a terminus for the Grand Trunk Pacific at Courtenay bay or elsewhere' in or near the harbour of St. John?
2.	Have plans and reports been made of the required dredging, with the wharfs, docks, breakwaters and terminal facilities necessary at Courtenay bay? If so, will the government lay the same on the table of the House ?
3.	What is the extent of the dredging required, and what is the estimate of the quantity of earth excavation and rock excavation, respectively, required to be made?
i. What is the estimate of the total cost of dredging, and what estimate is made of the cost of the wharfs, docks, warehouses and terminal facilities generally, apart from the estimated cost of dredging?
5.	Which predominates, rock or earth excavation?
6.	Have specification and plans for the dredging of Courtenay bay been prepared, and have any tenders been asked for the performance of such work? If so, what was the amount of deposit required to accompany tenders?
7.	Were any tenders received? If so, will
the government give the names of each tenderer with the figure of each together with the amount of deposit accompanying each tender, respectively ?	*
8.	Has any tender been accepted and a contract entered into? If so, will the government lay on the table of the House a copy of such contract, together with a copy of notices of call for tenders, setting forth terms, with the plans and specifications upon which such contract was based?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY:: tract was entered into with them for the
dredging on the west side of the harbour. No contract was entered into for dredging Courtenay bay, but the company covenanted to also perform the dredging there at the price named in their tender, if called upon by the government to do so. (b) Yes, if moved for.


GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC-ENTRANCE INTO BRANDON.
Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Has the government or any member thereof received a copy of a resolution passed by the Manitoba Grain Growers' Association at their recent convention held in Brandon re the entrance of the Grand Trunk Pacific railway into Brandon?
2.	If so, has the government taken any steps to further the request contained in said resolution, and what action has been taken?


Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM:: 1.	Yes, a copy of the resolution was received by the Department of Railways and Canals on 27th December, 1909.
2.	The resolution was acknowledged by the department and a copy of the same forwarded to Mr. E. J. Chamberlain, vicepresident and general manager of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company.


DREDGE CONSTRUCTION.
Mr. MONK:: 1.	Is the government at the present moment constructing, or has it constructed, at Sorel, a dredge, under the direction of Engineer Kennedy, formerly of the port of Montreal?
2.	If so, what is the cost or estimated cost of the construction of said dredge?
3.	Is it the case that the said dredge was found to be incapable of carrying its anchors without sinking, even before it had any coal placed on board?
1. Has the said dredge been found defective? If so, in what respect, and for what reasons?
5. Have orders been given to lengthen or widen or change the said dredge, and in what particulars?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	The government is constructing a dredge at Sorel from plans prepared by Mr. John Kennedy, formerly chief engineer of the Montreal Harbour Commissioners.
2.	Estimated cost, $230,000.
3.	No.
4.	The freeboard of the dredge was considered insufficient for work in heavy currents.
5.	The dredge is being lengthened 25 feet to increase the floating power and the freeboard.
THE PROPOSED WATERWAYS TREATY. Mr. MAGRATH:
1. Would the United States, under the proposed Waterways treaty, have the absolute right to the use of the Georgian Bay canal, if Mr. PUGSLEY.
constructed, and on the same terms as Canada?
2.	And, under that treaty, would Canada have similar rights to the use of the waterways connecting Lake Michigan with the Gulf of Mexico via the Chicago drainage canal?


Hon. A. B. AYLESWORTH.: The proposed Waterways Treaty dealing with boundary waters, and with streams or canals connecting boundary waters, would not seem to affect any use by the United States of the Georgian bay canal, if constructed, or any use by Canada of waterways connecting Lake Michigan with the Gulf of Mexico via the Chicago drainage canal, but it may be that the provisions of the treaty of Washington (1871) would have application to one or both of the subjects mentioned.


COMMISSION ON TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Mr. GUTHRIE:: 1.	What communication was addressed by the government to the premiers of the several provinces with reference to the appointment of a Commission on Technical Education?
2.	What replies were received from the premiers of the several provinces?


Hon. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	The following communication was addressed by the government to the premiers of the several provinces:
Minister of Labour, Canada.
Ottawa, December 13, 1909.
Dear Sir,-The Dominion government is considering the advisability of appointing a Royal Commission to inquire into the needs and present equipment of the Dominion as respects industrial training and technical education, and into the systems and methods of technical instruction obtaining in other countries, particularly in Great Britain, France, Germany and the United States. It is intended that the commission shall be solely for the purpose of gathering information, the information when obtained, to be published in a suitable report to be at the disposal of the provinces and available for general distribution.
I may say that the view of the government is that a commission of the kind suggested might render valuable services to the Dominion as a whole, since it would be in a position to conduct an inquiry on a wider and more comprehensive scale than might be considered desirable or possible in the case of the different provinces, and which if undertaken by the provinces individually must lead inevitably to the duplication and reduplication of energy and expense.
It is recognized, however, that the work of such a commission, to be of national service, should have the hearty endorsation of the governments of the several provinces of the Dominion, and I am, therefore, writing to ask if the appointment by the federal authorities of a commission of the character and scope suggested would meet with the approval of your government, and to inquire, in particular, inasmuch as some doubt has been expressed on the point, whether exception to

objection to the appointment of such a commission.
Please accept, sir, the expression of my highest regard,
(Sgd.) LOMER GOTJIN,
Prime Minister.
Office of the Prime Minister and President of the Council, Ontario.
Toronto, December 16, 1909. Hon. W. Mackenzie King,
Minister of Labour,
Ottawa, Out.
Dear Sir,-I have your letter of the 13th instant.
I understand the object of the proposed commission, to inquire into the needs and present equipment of the Dominion as respects training and technical education and into the system of methods for technical instruction obtaining in other countries, will be solely for the purpose of gathering information. This being so, I see no objection to the creation of the commission, and no exception will be taken to it on the part of the province of Ontario.
Tours very truly,
(Sgd.) J. P. WHITNEY.
Province of Manitoba, Premier's Office, Winnipeg, December 16, 1909. Hon. W. Mackenzie King,
Minister of Labour,
Ottawa, Ont.
Sir,-I have the honour to acknowledge receipt of yours under date of December 13th, regarding the advisability of appointing a royal commission to inquire into the industrial training and technical education of Canada.
I appreciate the fact that education is a matter under the constitution entirely vested in the provinces and realize that it is a delicate question on which to give advice such as you solicit.
The matter is an important one and I think, in view of the rapid strides along industrial lines that the Canadian people are making, there is necessity for more attention being given to technical education than what has been the practice or custom in the past.
I shall certainly be pleased to see more interest taken in this matter and our young men better qualified for the opportunities that are offered along industrial lines by having a first-class technical education to qualify them for the responsible and important positions that are awaiting men of that quality.
I have the honour to be, sir, -Tour obedient servant,
(Sgd.) R. P. ROBLIN, Premier.
Executive Council, Saskatchewan,
Regina, December 21, 1909. Hon. W. Mackenzie King,
Minister of Labour,
Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Mr. King,-I have duly received your letter of December 13 on the subject of technical education and the proposal now under consideration by your government for institut-Mr. MACKENZIE KING.
ing an inquiry by a royal commission and which asks whether the proposal meets with the approval of the Saskatchewan government and whether any exception would be taken by us on the ground of jurisdiction.
I may very readily state that the Saskatchewan government will raise no objection against the proposed inquiry by the Dominion government on any grounds; on the contrary we believe that the federal'government is the proper authority to'proceed in the matter in the way proposed, that it is a subject which can be more efficiently, economically and effectively dealt with by the central government than by the various provincial governments; and, in addition that, inasmuch as industrial training and technical instruction intimately affect trade and commerce, these branches of edu-' cation ought to be viewed from the national rather than from the provincial standpoint. Believe me,
Very sincerely yours,
(Sgd.) WALTER SCOTT.
Premier's Office, Alberta,
Edmonton, Alta., December 28, 1909. Hon. W. Mackenzie King,
Minister of Labour,
Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Sir,-I am instructed by the Hon. Premier Rutherford to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 13th in reference to the advisability of the Dominion government appointing a royal commission to inquire into the needs and present equipment of the Dominion as respects industrial training and technical education.
I am directed by the premier to say that this project meets with the hearty endorsation and approval of his government. .
Yours faithfully,
(Sgd.) M. J. MACLEOD,
Clerk Executive Council.
Government of the Province of British Columbia, Premier's Office,
Victoria, January 15, 1910. Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King,
Minister of Labour,
Ottawa, Out.
Dear Sir,-I beg to confirm my telegram to you of January 10th as follows:-
Owing to absence of Minister of Education with whom I wished to confer, regret being unable to reply sooner to your favour regarding technical education. He has now returned and an answer will be sent you promptly.
Having since then had an opportunity of consulting with the Minister of Education, I beg to state that the appointment of a commission by the Dominion to inquire into the subject of industrial training and technical instruction meets with the approval of this government.
It is not the intention of the government of this province to take exception to the course you propose on any grounds of jurisdiction.
I might add that this government will gladly afford any facilities in its power to assist in carrying out the object in view.
Yours very truly,
(Sgd.) RICHARD McBRIDE.



DAM ON THE MONTREAL RIVER,

Mr. WRIGHT:: Has the contract for the dam on the Montreal river, near Latchford, been let? If bo, to whom, and when is it expected to be finished?


Hon. WM. RUGSLEY:: 1.	Yes.
2.	W. H. Sinclair and D. B. Campbell.
3.	The contract stipulates that the work must be completed by April 1, 1911.



NATIONAL TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY-COMMISSION ON SUPPLIES.

Mr. J. D. TAYLOR:: 1.	Has the government or any member thereof, or have the Transcontinental Railway Commissioners or any of them received information, or intimation that any person or persons now or heretofore in the service of the government or of the commission have profited or sought to profit by the financial transactions with contractors or subcontractors, or any other persons connected with the construction of the said railway, or with the furnishing of supplies therefor, or have received or sought from such sources any money for property, transferred or proposed to be transferred during the period of their employment in connection with this work?
2.	If so, were said persons in position to influence reports on quantities or classification in connection with any contract or contracts? _ 3. When and in what manner, was such information communicated, and what action has been taken or is proposed to be taken therewith?


Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM:: 1.	The department has no knowledge of any such information.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. 1.



WM. ANGUS, MERIDALE, MANITOBA.

Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Has AVm. Angus, of Meridale post office, Manitoba, been appointed a commissioner under the Naturalization Act for naturalization purposes?
2.	Is he in the employment of the Interior Department as fire ranger, or in any other capacity? If so, what salary does he receive?


Hon. CHARLES MURPHY:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No.



DOUGLAS ISLAND, DALHOUSIE, NEW BRUNSWICK.

Mr. CROCKET:: 1.	When did the government acquire Douglas island, at Dalhousie, New Brunswick?
2.	From whom was it bought, and at what price ?
3.	What was the object of the purchase?
4.	How many acres does the island contain?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	The government acquired the eastern end of Douglas island, containing 1-28 100 acres, with right of way thereto, by expropriation on December 21, 1908.
2.	When the' expropriation plans were filed the island belonged to the Dalhousie Lumber Company, Limited. No compensation has up to date been paid to the company.
3.	To secure the site of the lighthouse maintained on the island.
4.	Approximately three acres.



TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY-ENGINEER BENJAMIN BOURGEOIS.

Mr. LENNOX:: 1.	Has Mr. Benjamin Bourgeois, a government engineer upon the eastern division of the Transcontinental railway, been dismissed? If so, when and for what cause?
2.	Has Mr. Bourgeois resigned his position of engineer? If so, when and for what cause ?
3.	By whom was Mr. Bourgeois recommended for employment?
4.	By whom was his dismissal demanded, and for what alleged cause?


Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Mr. Bourgeois' services were dispensed with after investigation.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Benjamin Bourgeois was appointed engineer in charge of party on recommendation of H. D. Lumsden, chief engineer, September, 1904. He was appointed division engineer, district ' B,' on recommendation of H. D. Lumsden, June, 1906.
4.	Answered by No. 1.



EXTENSION OF PROVINCIAL BOUNDARIES.

Mr. JAMESON:: 1.	Was notice of the resolution adopted by this House in 1908, whereby it is proposed to add to the province of Quebec a portion of the district of Ungava, and to the provinces of Manitoba and Ontario a portion of the district of Keewatin, given to the governments of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, or either of them? If so, when was notice given?
2.	Was any objection to such proposed transfer to the provinces of Quebec, Ontario, and Manitoba, raised by either of the governments of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, or any conditions as to the terms affecting said provinces, proposed by either of said governments?
3.	If so, has any action been taken thereon, or reply made thereto, and what, if any?
i. Does the government recognize that the four original provinces of confederation, namely, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, have partnership interest in the territory of Keewatin or Ungava?
5.	In any disposition of such territory, will recognition be given to the interests of the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia ? If so, in what way; and if not, why not?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	No.
2.	No.
3.	No action was taken.
4.	It does not appear that the four original provinces have any interest different from the interest of other provinces that have entered since confederation.
5.	In the resolution of the 13th of July, 1908, the principle was laid down that in any legislation for extension of the boundaries of the provinces of Quebec, Manitoba and Ontario, nothing should be done to impair the representation of any province in this House, and the government is bound by this resolution. .



SUBSIDY PAYMENTS TO SASKATCHEWAN.

Mr. LAKE:: What is the aggregate of the subsidy payments made to the provincial government of Saskatchewan from the 1st July, 1905, to the 31st December, 1909, under section 20 of the Saskatchewan Act?


Hon. W. S. FIELDING:: 



SALARY INCREASES TO POST OFFICE INSPECTORS.

Mr. ARMSTRONG:: 1.	Have the post office inspectors sent petitions and delegates to the Postmaster General asking for increases in salaries? If so, has the government granted their request? If not, why not?	_
2.	Have said officials received any advance since confederation? If so, at what date was increase given, and the extent of the increase?
3.	Were said officials formerly given any allowances which are not at present granted to them?
4.	Has their work increased in the past ten years? If so, to what extent?


Mr. JAMESON.: 5.	Do the inspectors belong to the inside service, or are they part of the parliamentary machinery, collecting facts and reporting direct to the minister?


Hon. R. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Applications have been received from a number of inspectors for increases in salary, and these applications have not yet received consideration.
2.	The scale of remuneration was changed from the 13th August, 1903. The old scale of remuneration was as follows:
2nd class, on appointment	$2,000
After 10	years	service	
2,200After 20	years	service	
2,4001st class, on appointment	
2,200After 10	years	service	
2,400After 20	years	service	
2,600
In 1903, the statute dividing inspectors into two classes was repealed, and the scale of remuneration was fixed as follows:
On appointment, $2,000, with an increase of $50 a year for the first six years, and $100 a year thereafter, up to a maximum of $2,600.
3.	No, except that formerly they were allowed a per diem allowance to cover travelling expenses, whereas now they are paid the actual amount of expenses incurred. This change was made in February, 1893.
4.	With the growth of the country this branch of the work has increased in like manner with all other branches of the postal service.
5.	Post office, inspectors are classified under what is known as the ' outside service.'
. POST OFFICE AT WINDYGATES.


Mr. W. H. SHARPE:: Did the government receive a petition from the settlers at Windygates against the moving of the post office? If so, how many names were on said petition?


Rodolphe Lemieux: A petition containing 34 signatures, asking that the location of the office might not be changed, was received at the department.



EXPENDITURES ON ST. LAWRENCE SHIP CHANNEL.

Mr. SINCLAIR:: 1.	What is the gross amount that has been expended by the government of Canada in (a) deepening, lighting and otherwise improving the St. Lawrence ship channel (b) improving in any way the harbour of Montreal; (c) improving in any way the harbour of. Quebec?
2.	What is the gross amount of the present loan by the government to the Commissioners
1 of the Montreal Harbour Board?


Wilfrid Laurier: St. Lawrence Ship Canal.
1. (a) Cost of dredging to end
of fiscal year 1908-9....$7,208,543 50
Expenditure for plant, shops, surveys, &c., up to end of fiscal year 1908-9	 3,501,449 96
.	$10,709,993 46
The cost of lighting the St. Lawrence Ship Channel has not been kept as a separate item, these lights forming part of the general division of lights for the province of Quebec below Montreal.
(b)	$1,064,240.91.
(c)	$1,691,026.46.
2. $10,870,000.



DISPOSAL OF LANDS IN NEW WESTMINSTER DISTRICT.

Mr. J. D. TAYLOR:: Are there any proposals now before the government, or any department, for the disposal of lands_ or other property in New Westminster district, on terms varying in any. respect from those available to applicants generally, and defined by statutes or regulations which have been published in the ' Can-ad Gazette/ and which it is desired to have determined without onnortunity for public competition? If so, what are the names of the applicants, and the properties applied for in each case?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER:: The commissioners for the Chilliwak-Su-mas Drainage and Dyking district are applying for the ungranted Dominion lands surrounding Sumas lake together with the bed of the lake.
The Vancouver Power Company is applying for certain lands as a site for a dam at the port of Coquitlam lake.



MOTIONS AGREED TO WITHOUT DISCUSSION.

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For a return showing all written objections to classification upon the Transcontinental Railway made since July 28, 1908, and in reference to overbreak or other over-expenditure since October 2, 1908.-Mr. Lennox.
For a return showing the total cost to Canada of the military college buildings and grounds, and the amount furnished each year by tile government towards its maintenance.- Mr. Armstrong.
For a copy of all correspondence respecting the Central Park post office during the year 1909, and including particularly a copy of:-1. Representations made to the department that by changing the location of the office and establishing a post office at Collingwood East, the interest of the majority of the residents would be best served.
2.	The evidence taken at the inquiry following such representations, and the official report upon such evidence.
3.	Communications from residents of Central Park and others with respect to the closing of ,
the post office there, and the answer made thereto in accordance with the facts.
4.	The information upon which it was determined that the removal of the post office would be a greater convenience.
5.	The largely signed petition from patrons of the Central Park post office complaining of the management, etc.; and the report of the inspector who investigated the same.-Mr. J. D. Taylor.
For a return showing the number of chartered hanks that have gone into liquidation since 1888, the date of the charters of each, the date of suspension, the capital stock, assets and liabilities, respectively, at date of suspension, and the per cent of dividends paid to both holders and depositors, respectively. Also, what other hanks have disappeared by amalgamation or otherwise, with similar information as above in respect to them,-Mr. Foster.
For a copy of all papers, affidavits and correspondence between the Interior Department and John A. Dunn, or any one in his behalf, and any official of the department, concerning the application for patent of the N.W. J sec. 34, tp. 35, range 16, west of the 2nd M.-Mr. Roche.
For a return showing the number of persons appointed as temporary employees of the Civil Service in the several departments since the present Civil Service Act came into force, the date of the appointment of each, their names, their salaries while employed, as such temporary employees, the department in which such employee was placed, the duration of their employment, whether in one department alone or in case of transfer to another or other department, with total length of time employed, the names of those who in consequence of having passed the Civil Service examination have been employed permanently, the names of those who while temporarily employed failed to pass the required examination and are still employed in the service, the names of those who are or have been employed over the statutory six months as temporary employees, and the reasons for .such continued employment in each case.-Mr. Hughes.
For a copy of all correspondence relating to all coal lands reserved for as well as those acquired by the Bow River collieries by direct application or assignment.-Mr. Northrup.
For a copy of all correspondence between the District Officer Commanding Military District Number 11 and the Department of Militia, with reference to the battery of 12-pounder B.L. guns recently sent to Esquimalt, or with reference to the proposal that No. 1 Company of the 5th regiment, C.A., should train on said guns.-Mr. Barnardo.
For a copy of all reports of surveys of any projected railway lines or routes in the province of Prince Edward Island during the years 1908 and 1909, and particularly reports of the surveys of any such line from Royal Junction, or thereabouts, to Kensington or thereabouts; also of all correspondence, recommendations, documents and papers of every kind, nature and description relating to or concerning the said projected railway lines or routes or the surveys therefor.-Mr. R. L. Borden.
For ia copy of all correspondence, advertise, ments, tenders and other documents, in con
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nection with a proposal or proposals to lease a part or the whole of the Black Boot reserve. -'Mr. Magrath.
Bor a return showing: Since the beginning of the autumn train service of 1909 on the Intercolonial railway, at what time the train which leaves Oxford Junction every week day morning for Pictou is due to leave Oxford Junction and arrive at Pictou; the actual time at which the train departed each day from Oxford Junction; the actual time at which it arrived each day at Pictou; the causes of the delay, if any; and what efforts are being made to improve the service in respect of time.-Mr. Rhodes.

Mr.  A. B.@: WARBURTON (Queens), moved:
Bor a copy of all memorials, reports, correspondence and documents not already brought down, including report of survey made during the past summer and autumn of the harbour at Cape John and Tatama-gouclie bay, in the counties of Pictou and Colchester, in the province of Nova Scotia, relating to the route of the winter steamers between Prince Edward Island and the mainland of Canada, and suggesting and recommending a change or changes in the said route, and an increase in the number of trips daily of such winter steamers; and also, a copy of all memorials, reports, correspondence and documents relating to the route of the summer mail steamers between Charlottetown and the mainland of Canada, and suggesting a change or changes in that route, and an increase in the number of trips daily of such summer mail steamers; and also with regard to connecting such suggested new summer route or routes with a point or points on the Intercolonial railway, and also, for a copy of all memorials, and correspondence, asking for additional and improved aids to navigation of the harbour of Charlottetown and in Tatamagouche bay and harbour.
He said: Mr. Speaker, before the Christmas vacation I had several short interviews with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Brodeur) in connection with this route and the steamer service. It was the desire of that hon. gentleman to be present when this motion came up, but, owing to his very regrettable illness, it will not be possible this session, I take it, for him to be present within the time when this motion must be brought forward, if it is to be dealt with at all. The importance to us in Prince Edward Island of this matter of winter communication can hardly be realized, perhaps, by those who do not labour under the disadvantages to which we are subjected through the lack of communication which sometimes exists. I spoke on this question last session, on motion to go into supply, and pointed out that the several governments that had existed since we came into confederation, Conservative and Liberal alike, have made repeated,


Frank Oliver: sincere and energetic efforts to overcome the difficulties with which they have to contend in regard to winter communication. Briefly, I may say that these efforts began almost the very year-if not the very year -when we entered into confederation. The Mackenzie government put on the route a vessel called the * Albert/ as a test. It was not possible at that early period to procure a boat built for the purpose of ice breaking, and the 'Albert' was a test pending the time when a proper boat could be procured. The 'Albert', which was not much of a success, was succeeded by the ' Northern Light,' built at Quebec, built of wood, sheathed with green-heart wood. The ' Northern Light,' while not well adapted to the work, proved, nevertheless, a very excellent experiment, because, while she was not able to do the work very well, the experience gained from hei performances enabled the government, or the government's marine advisers, to design a vessel which did good work later on; and so the 'Northern Light' may be called a very successful experiment. She was followed by the ' Stanley.' This was under the Conservative government. This vessel did good work. Ten or twelve years ago the ' Minto ' was put on, and both these vessels continued on the route up to last year. Both these vessels did very good work, but they were not sufficiently strong to maintain the service during certain seasons of the year and under certain weather conditions. Last year, a new ship, the ' Earl Grey ' was put on. She is a much larger and more powerful vessel than the others, a vessel to which a good deal of attention had been given and in the production of which great care had been taken in order to embody in her all the best ideas of the time. She cost over half a million dollars, and there can be no question that she is a very excellent ship. She was put on the route this season for the first time. This has not been as difficult a season as some others have been. Still, notwithstanding the mild weather we have had, the ' Earl Grey ' has had to contend with a good deal of very heavy ice. She is a splendid ship and ought to be able to do the work if any vessel that can be constructed at this time could do it. I crossed in her myself in the early part of last month on the way back from Prince Edward Island to Ottawa. There was not much ice in the harbour, but there was much ice off P-oint Prim, on Prince Edward Island, ice so heavy that, as the captain told me, it would have stopped either of the other vessels. But the ' Earl Grey ' was able to make her way through it without difficulty, at the rate of four or five miles an hour. I have mentioned these vessels, not because I am going to discuss very much or at all the class of vessels we required on that route. I think the government have now given us

a vessel as good as they could well give. But, boats are like other things, they cannot perform impossibilities. We have to consider the various routes between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, and here we strike upon a rather vexed question. There are a number of proposed routes between Prince Edward and the mainland, each of which has its advocates who insist upon that particular route as the one best adapted for winter communication. I think it fair to assume that we in Prince Edward Island, to whom this matter of winter communication is a matter of very vital importance, and who are therefore compelled to pay attention to it, are possibly in a better position to form an opinion upon this matter than are those who are not forced to consider it so carefully.
Now, I do not propose to describe the various routes at length, but I may mention them.
Beginning at the western end of the island there is a route that the people of Summerside and Prince county insist on very strongly, that is between Summer-side and Cape Tonnentine. That route has been tried once or twice and the Summer-side people say it has not been sufficiently tried, but so far I do not know that the experiment has been an unqualified success. If that route could be made a success I for one would be quite satisfied to accept it.
Further down you have the route between Cape Traverse and Cape Tormentine, that is the route of the old winter ice boats which we used sometimes to help haul over with a strap. This is also the site of the proposed tunnel; it is the narrowest place between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, the distance from shore to shore being 7i to eight miles. If communication could be kept up there it would seem to be the natural connection between the mainland and Prince Edward Island, because it is so much narrower than the other passages. Very strong objections are, however, raised to it by many people. One is the enormous cost of the piers to be' constructed there, and in addition to that you have on the New Brunswick side reefs running out li or 2J miles from the shore, which it is contended would be very dangerous. On the island side there are also flats running out a long distance. The ice between them is always on the move and the current runs about 4 miles an hour. The contention is that a ship_ might be carried a little out of her way by these currents and touch a reef or flat, which would be the last we would know about that ship.
Further to the east there is a route between Souris or Georgetown and Cape George in Nova Scotia. This route has strong advocates, and if it could be made
permanent and could have continuous communication I do not know that I would raise objection to it. It would be at the extreme end of the island and would necessitate more railway carriage than some of the other routes, but we would look on that as a small matter If the route could be established and continuous Communication maintained. On that route we have a good harbour on the Prince Edward Island side, at Souris. Although it is not very deep it is generally accessible in winter by craft of this nature, and has frequently open water. Georgetown harbour is one of the best harbours to be found anywhere, a magnificent harbour, and no fault could be found with it. But I do not know what could be done at Gape George because, so far as I know, there is no harbour there, or a very inferior one, and it would require a somewhat extensive breakwater to provide an artificial harbour. I am informed by those who say they know that there is always open water there at the change of the tides, and I presume they are correct. I shall not express an opinion of that route because I have not been able to get as much information about it as I have about some of the others.
Then we have the two routes to which I wish especially to call attention. We have the route which has been used for the last third of a century between Georgetown in Prince Edward Island, and Pictou in Nova Scotia. Georgetown, as I have already said, is an exceedingly good port, we have little or no fault to find with it. It has deep water and is very accessible. But when we come to Pictou we have a different story to tell. In order to understand the objection to Pictou I wish to call attention to the configuration of the Straits of Northumberland. The eastern end of the strait is open to the northeast winds, which blow right into the eastern end of the straits and fill them with ice. There is a space of 250 miles through which that northeast wind blows directly from the Straits of Belle Isle into Pictou harbour, and when that wind is blowing, and it is a prevailing one, it fills the entrance to Pictou harbour full up, it packs it from side to side, and the ice grounds and is packed from top to bottom. It makes a solid and impervious mass through which no ship ever built or ever to be built can force a passage. That state of affairs^ has continued for a greater or less length of time during different seasons. The longest time I remember was five years ago when one of the winter steamers was shut inside of Pictou harbour for 59 days and the other was shut out of Pictou harbour for 59 days. But while that was the longest it was not the only instance of vessels being unable to make Pictou harbour. I happened to be over there myself in that

particular season, and the ice was so jammed and grounded on the bottom that even the tides were affected by it. No ship that could be built can go through ice if it cannot dispose of the ice as it breaks it. You can put a ship into heavy ice if it is floating and she can break it if there is sea room to let the broken floes of ice be disposed of, or in some sorts of ice if the boat can pass the ice under her, although that, of course, requires plenty of depth. You cannot do that when the ice is jammed between two coasts and grounded on the bottom, and that is the case in Pictou.
I wish to call attention to one or two extracts which I gave last year upon this subject, but which I think are of sufficient importance to be repeated. Owing to the difficulties we had five years ago, surveys and reports were ordered to be made by the Dominion government. Among those who took this matter up under the instructions of the government was Mr. Shewan, the resident engineer of the Department of Public Works in St. John, New Brunswick, who. in his report speaks as follows:
Up to this time the winter steamer lias been crossing from Pictou to Georgetown, a distance of about 42 miles, with more or less irregularity occasioned by the ice.
He speaks of more or less irregularity and refers to the ice being driven into the eastern end of the straits by the northeast wind. I am anxious to emphasize this fact that the ice which causes our troubles, with which we have to contend, which the government steamers have to fight against and which the government have to deal with in trying to keep up continuous communication with the mainland, is not ice produced there, that ice does not originate in the straits or Pictou harbour, but to the north up towards Belle Isle and in the sea between Belle Isle and Pictou. It is brought down by the wind and is driven in as I say.
When the ice is packed as in this manner, it is almost impossible for a steamer to force her way through, as will be seen from the following from Admiral Makaroff's description of the voyage of the ' Ermack/ who found it easier to break the ice in the Polar seas with that vessel than in the Baltic, because in the Arctic seas the ice is broken, which in the Baltic is extended from land to land.
That is exactly a parallel case with what happened at the harbour of Pictou. As a matter of fact, Pictou with a northeast wind is simply an ice pocket or rather an ice bottle, in which there is a very tight cork, and I doubt very much if even a corkscrew could go through that cork. Admiral Makaroff, in describing the voyage of the ' Ermack ' says:
Floes of ice might he several miles or several fathoms in length. Between the ice Mr. WARBTiRTON,
floes are the lanes, which are very irregular. Sometimes the ice-floes are pressed against each other and sometimes not. When the ice is not pressed, the progress of -the ship is very easy. Floes of ice even nine miles long move away and give passage to the ship. But the fact is that even ice 14 feet thick cracks when charged by the ship, provided there is room to remove the broken parts.
There is where the whole question comes in. You must have room for the removal of the broken parts. A report was also made by Mr. Gobeil, formely deputy minister of Public Works. In the course of his report he says:
From an inspection of the chares it appears that the line from Pictou to Georgetown is where, probably, the ice masses in the greater quantity, and from the direction of the currents, is likely to remain a longer time to prevent the passage of the ferry steamer.
He adds, and this covers a great part of the opposition that may be offered to the change of route:
Of course there is a disposition always to accept whatever is as immutable, and in changing the establishment of anything that has become, w-orthily or unworthily, by lapse of time an institution, local prejudices will be met.
This will prove the great difficulty now, as, not unnaturally, there will always be opposition to a change, by the port or ports to and from which the service is now carried. This should not affect the question.
I think that the remark of Mr. Gobeil will be accepted as correct, that a matter of that kind should not affect the situation. If the service cannot successfully and continuously be performed on the route where it has been during the last 34 or 35 years from Georgetown, surely it is time to make a change and see if we cannot find a route somewhere else. In regard to Pictou I will also read from a report made by Mr. F. W. Hyndman, who was formerly an employee of the British government and who was a first-class hydrographer. He says:
In order that my remarks may he intelligently understood, it is necessary that you have two charts before you, one of the St. Lawrence and another of Prince Edward Island and the Straits of Northumberland. Both these charts are published by the Hydrographic Office, London, and can be had for a small sum at some of onr stores in this city.
If yon will glance at the chart of the Gulf of St. Lawrence and get your eye on Pictou, you will see at once that it is open to the northeasterly winds right up to the Straits of Belle Isle, a distance of some 250 miles. Those winds largely prevail in the winter and the consequence is that Pictou is merely a pocket for che drift and rafting ice of the gulf. Only two years ago

That is five years ago.

-this was shown by both winter steamers on this route being tied up for fifty-nine consecutive days, leaving no means of transporting freight, and forcing passengers and mails to be carried across the straits at Cape Traverse in open boats, a distance of 8 to 10 miles, with much risk and great discomfort on all occasions, and no improvement on the means in use a full century ago.
I referred to one of the stoppages which have taken place there. In the winter of 1898 I was stuck at Pictou ten days and was kept there by a northeast wind which blocked the place with ice. Many other stoppages have taken place. I looked up the other day in the reports of the department to see the record of a few more of these stoppages and I found that in 1898:
The steamer entered upon the winter mail service on the 25th December. It was not considered prudent to continue the ' Stanley ' on the Charlottetown and Pictou route; the steamer therefore kept up communication between Georgetown and Pictou until the 22nd of January, 1898, when the ship was hemmed in by heavy packed ice off Pictou island; in trying to get through between Pictou island and the ice jam the ship ran aground on the reef. After emptying the after-ballast tank the steamer was backed off without damage on the 23rd of January. The ice loosening up, the steamer returned to Georgetown, finding it impossible to get into Pictou. On the 24th January the steamer left for Pictou again, but could not get in. The passengers and mails were landed by ice boats. The mails were transferred to the Capes route on the 26th January. The steamer was jammed in the ice at Pictou from the 27th of January to the 2nd of February.
Again in 1901:
The _ winter service between Charlottetown and Pictou began on January 7, the ' Stanley ' running in conjunction with the steamer * 11 in to,' each boat making bi-weekly trios. On February 5, the ' Stanley ' got caught in the ice off Pictou harbour and remained in the ice until February 20, and did not arrive at Georgetown until February 21.
Again, the same year:
Owing to the heavy ice in the harbour of Pictou between February 5 and 21, and also on account of the shoal water on the bar the steamer was unable to move out of Pictou harbour until February 19. This matter was made more serious by the fact that the steamer ' Stanley ' was at the same time icebound six miles out of Pictou harbour.
Again, in 1902:
The service between the two latter places was begun on January 10. The service was fairly regular until February 12, when the ' Minto ' was caught in heavy" ice off the end of Pictou island and remained fast until February 15. She was then able to get into Georgetown.
In 1905:
In leaving Georgetown on January 25, 1905, the ice was found to be very heavy and the * 101
' Stanley ' returned to Georgetown, and although repeated attempts were made to force the steamer through the ice, it was found impossible to cross to Pictou until March 3, when the ' Stanley ' forced her way to the Pictou ice barrier, and the passengers and mails were transferred over the barrier to the steamer ' Minto ' two miles way. The ' Stanley ' then returned to Georgetown. It was found impossible to make another crossing until March 16, when the ice barrier, off Pictou, was reached and the cargo transferred to the ' Minto.' On March 21, the ' Stanley ' reached Pictou harbour.
I know about that because I was there.
On February 25, 1907, on a trip from Georgetown the ' Minto ' was caught by a heavy ice-jam, in a strong gale and thick snow storm, and did not reach Pictou until March 2, and from that date until March 19 it was found impossible to reach Georgetown again, although several^ attempts were made. The return trip to Pictou was accomplished only on March 26.
Last year was a very good year, but even last year passengers left Georgetown on Monday and got back to Georgetown on the following Saturday. Several other cases occurred in which passengers were prevented for several days from getting across. I have gone into some detail with reference to this question because I wished to emphasize the fact, which I mentioned in my opening remarks, that our difficulties are due not to ice that is made in the straits but to ice that is driven down and fills up the harbour and straits. It is practically polar ice that is driven in there. That ice does not go through the straits. It is held up, to some extent, by Pictou island, and to some extent, by Cape Bear. Some of it passes these two points and is held up at Point Prim which is a long narrow point running out three or four miles from the Prince Edward Island shore. This polar ice does not get beyond that. In Charlottetown we have often complained, and complained without reason, of the steamer not getting backwards and forwards. We knew the condition of the ice in Charlottetown harbour and between Charlottetown and the mainland to be all right, but we could not see over Point Prim to discover what was there. We invariably found that the difficulty lay east of Point Prim where the ice was massed. You cannot judge of the conditions upon the state of the weather there. If you know the direction of the wind you may form an opinion. If it is northeast you may make up your mind that there is going to be trouble. After giving the George-town-Pictou route a trial for over a third of a century, and having proved successfully and absolutely that it is impossible to keep up winter communication by that route I do say that it is fair, it is right and that it is reasonable to



ask that some other route should be tried to find whether there is a possibility of keeping up that communication.
We believe, after years of experience, that we have the most simple and direct route between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. Efforts have been made to show that Charlottetown harbour is blocked up in the same manner as Pictou during the winter months, but that is absolutely incorrect, and the fact is that the channel route into Charlottetown harbour was never known to be blocked with ice. There are, of course, flats on both sides of Charlottetown harbour and points running out upon which the ice grounds and stays, but we never purposed running steamers over these flats or over these points. Our purpose is to navigate the deep and splendid channel between these points. I may say that the question of the ice in Charlottetown harbour has been investigated time and time again. Even since I brought the matter up in the House last session there are those who have insisted that the channel leading into Charlottetown is too narrow to make in winter. I have here a copy of the admiralty chart and it shows that -where the main channel debouches from the deep water of Northumberland straits towards Charlottetown some three or four miles out the entrance to the channel between the eighteen-foot marks-on these admiralty charts-I believe they give the low water so that the figures I shall read are taken between the eighteen-foot marks

this shows that the entrance to the harbour on the outside is three and one quarter miles in width.
At six o'clock, the House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. WARBURTON.: When the House rose at six o'clock I was making some reference to the harbour conditions of Charlottetown during the winter season, and I proposed to make some references to the admiralty chart of the harbour, a portion of which, covering the entrance to the harbour, I have had copied. I may say that the soundings of which I propose to give the figures, were taken at the lowest spring tide, the lowest water to be found, according to the custom of the admiralty, so that the soundings will be accurate and safe, and a vessel cannot be misled in accepting them. At the extreme outer end of the channel extending from the harbour, where it breaks away from the deeper water of the straits, the measurement between the 18-foot lines-the two lines on opposite sides of the channel, where the minimum depth is 18 feet-the width across the channel is three and one-quarter miles. We are some-Mr. WARBURTON.
times told that the entrance to Charlottetown harbour is so narrow that a vessel cannot make it in the winter time, or, some people say, at any other time, without special aids to navigation. Across the channel at that point the depth of water varies from the minimum of 18 feet on the one side to 21 feet, 34 feet, 34 feet again, 35 feet, 31 feet, and back to 18 feet on the other side. About two miles farther in other measurements were taken. There the channel passes between the island of St. Peter and Governor's island, which lie on either side of the entrance, but at some distance from it. From these islands shoal water runs out for a considerable distance; but there the width of the channel between the 18 feet lines is one and three-quarter miles; and any sailor who cannot make his way through a channel of that width ought not to be let off dry land. At that point the depth varies from 18 feet on one side to 26 feet, 34 feet, 32 feet, 28 feet, and back to 18 feet on the other side. Towards one side of the channel at that point there is the Fitzroy rock about which some trouble has been made. Some have said that it is impossible to navigate the channel with that rock there. It is not a very large rock, and I find that the lowest water over it is 20 feet at low spring tide, and the depth varies from that to 21 feet, 27 feet, 28 feet, 25 feet, 22 feet which shows that vessels could sail over it with perfect safety. At about three miles from that point the channel suddenly narrows off from the reef that runs about three miles from St. Peter's island and another from the mainland of Prince Edward Island, but even there it is three-quarters of a mile wide, and the depth of water is 72 feet. At a distance of another mile and a half the channel becomes one-third of a mile wide and there the depth of water is 57 or 58 feet. That width continues right to the mouth of the harbour between the Blockhouse light and the land on the other side. There, between the two points forming the entrance, which is the narrowest part, the channel is one-third of a mile wide, and between these two points there is deep [DOT]water almost up to the shore, so that it would be almost impossible for any man to get out of his course there. At that point the water is 73 feet deep. From there the channel continues for a couple of miles to the basin of Charlottetown harbour on a straight line according to the range lights; and in it the depth of water varies from 73 feet to 77 feet. About half way to the wharf there is a short bend to the right, and then a straight line to the wharf. From the point where this change is made the channel continues of a uniform width of about one-third of a mile. Inside there is a large harbour of deep-water varying from 61 feet to 44 feet, and the wharf will

accommodate a vessel drawing 26 feet of water, while 100 yards from the wharf there is a depth of 58 feet. It is said that this channel gets filled with ice. To begin with, there is no wind that can drive ice into that harbour. We who have spent our lives at Charlottetown know that; but people who desire to deflect the vessel from her present course there try to make out that ice drives into the channel. The mere fact that the channel has a depth of 70 feet and has two inward and two outward tides every day, with a tremendous current which would prevent the ice getting very thick, is sufficient to convince any man that that channel could not get blocked with ice. At the narrow entrance at the Blockhouse light there is no difficulty, because the only ice to be encountered there is harbour ice, which is never more than from 18 inches to 2 feet thick, and the ' Earl Grey ' will go through that at the rate of from six to eight miles an hour. The ' Minto ' or the ' Stanley ' going through such ice was a sight worth seeing, but this much more powerful ship goes through it at much greater speed.
We have taken the precaution for many years to have this thing tested, because I do not pretend to come before this House without being able to put the facts before you, which we have proved to be true. The board of trade in Charlottetown took measures to test this for a number of years, and they employed Captain John Gillies, an old experienced sea captain who has been residing in Charlottetown for a great many years, to make observations of the harbour ice, and of the channel ice, particularly of the channel ice leading into the harbour. I will Tead from a part of his report:
I have been asked by Mr. L. B. Miller, secretary of the board of trade here, to give a condensed report of the conditions, of the ice in the Hillsboro' bay and Charlottetown harbour during the three years (winters) 1904-5-0" that I was engaged to make actual surveys of the same.
In each of the aforementioned years the surveys were made during the month of March, when it was considered the most ice would be found, and the hardest task to make the harbour.
I would call attention to the fact that that year was the year in which steamers could not get in and out of Pictou for 59 days.
From the reports submitted at various times the ice varied in thickness from 28 inches to 18, and the average ice in ' the ship's course ' was 24 inches, covering from 7 to 9 fathoms of water.
While it is true the ' Minto ' tried to make Charlottetown in March 1905, and got stuck off St. Peter's Island bar in a reported thickness of 15 feet of ice, it is equally true that I was almost immediately sent to make a survey and found, by actual measurement, there 101 i
was only 5 feet where she stuck. I can account for the discrepancy in one way only: In my case the ice was measured, and in the other case it must have been judged from the bridge of the ship. Only one week after my survey was made and reported the ' Minto ' made another attempt to reach Charlottetown and was successful.
In making the aforesaid survey, I found where the * Minto ' had stuck, there being 5 feet of ice and 9 fathoms of water. I then measured 40 yards from -this spot toward St. Peter's island and I found 2 feet of ice with 7 fathoms of water, and 60 yards nearer the island I got the same thickness of ice with 5 fathoms of water, while at the block-house (entrance to the harbour) there was but 18 inches of ice.
This is a point I wish to emphasize, bei-cause that is the point made by those who are opposed to this route:
As the ice does not raft in this bay to any appreciable extent owing to the board ice and the prevailing northeast winds, it is my belief that with better aids to navigation there should be but little difficulty in making this a winter port, there being plenty of sea-room and water, and ships will have to centend with no running ice.
Again last year, although it was a mild winter, we had difficulty getting into Pictou harbour. There was no ice-breaker. The ' Earl Grey ' was not ready, and this work was done by the old vessel. In isome cases last year passengers got on board at) Georgetown on Monday and were out all the week trying to get to Pictou and back to Georgetown on Saturday, without having reached their destination. The last time that occurred, passengers were delayed from three to five days, though the winter was a favourable one; there was not one, day last winter in which those steamers could not have got in and out of Charlottetown harbour. Now, last year,-and I suppose it was done at my request-and in view of the fact that I had brought this matter up in the House, observations were ordered to be made, and the board of trade sent two master mariners to investigate, Captain John Gillies, whose earlier report I have already Tead, and Captain C. E. Myers, who has been living in Charlotte-) town for the last 15 or 20 years. On March1 16 they made a report to the board of trade, of which the following is an extract:
Having been commissioned by you in your capacity as president of the board of trade, to secure data of the conditions of the ice between this harbour and Point Prim, we beg to report as follows:-
We began our survey of the ice in the harbour this morning, and found open water from Murphy's point (red buoy) to Trout point at harbour's mouth. At the latter place, in range with Brighton light ranges (ship's course), we found open water 12 fathoms deep. From that point we proceeded due south 100 yards with only 4 inches of

ice continuing on same course another 100 yards we found G inches of ice with 12 fathoms of water. We kept on the same course for 150 yards and found 8 inches of ice alongside a vein of open water in channel. We then made a circuit around the open water a dis-ance of about 150 yards, estimated-the ice being too dangerous to carry us for actual measurement-and came in line with the range lights and again found 6 inches of ice with 11 fathoms of water. Proceeding 200 yards on the ranges (about south) we got 4 inches of ice and 10 fathoms of water. Continuing on ship's course seaward 200 yards we measured 5 inches of ice and sounded 11 fathoms of water. On the same course and distance we found 4 inches of ice and unsafe to take soundings. Ice from this point unsafe to continue in channel to St. Peter's Island bar, consequently we left the centre of the channel and proceeded to the east edge of same until we came to 6 fathoms of water and found 4 inches of ice. We continued on south by west in order to get into deeper water for a distance of 400 yards. Here the ice was parted in line with Lowther's point, south shore, and Pownal Head.
Those are two points 8 or 10 miles outside the harbour.
Beyond this it was unsafe to proceed any further for the ice was only 2 inches thick.
We found open water from the black buoy extending seaward past St. Peter's Island bar, Point Prim, and as far seaward as we could see with glasses.
From our survey we are in a position to state there is no ice from Point Prim to Charlottetown to hinder a steamer making this port. In fact, following the ship s course from the three tides out the ice mentioned in the foregoing report was of such a nature as not to present a serious obstacle to many of our summer boats.
Now, Mr. Speaker, it does appear to me that these facts ought to satisfy any reasonable person that Charlottetown harbour is quite accessible during the winter season. I wish also to say something about the harbour across the straits at Tatamagouche, or Brule. But first let me speak of the work that has been done this season. The ' Earl Grey ' and the ' Minto ' were put upon the route between Charlottetown and Pictou. The ' Minto ' made the trip and changed to Georgetown. The captain of the ' Minto could not be induced to get away from Charlottetown, but the captain of the ' Earl Grey ' kept on the route-I crossed over with him myself. The ship passed backwards and forwards from Pictou, making the trip one way each day; she used to make the trip in three or four hours, and the last day in five hours. There was no difficulty whatever. On one occasion, on the 17th of January the Earl Grey' left Charlottetown intending to return. The harbour ice presented no difficulties, but when she got round Point Prim she struck, some miles down the straits, the Polar*ice which had Mr. WARBURTON.
filled up the eastern end of the straits. The Polar ice does not drift past Point Prim. Point Prim is the farthest western point where that ice reaches. So once you arq west of Point Prim you are sure to have water and ice conditions through which the vessel can go without much difficulty. But this time when the vessel was going to Pictou she got into this heavy ice and was stopped three times. She kept on to Pictou, and the captain was afraid to risk the new vessel without instructions, and decided to go to Georgetown next day. But he made that trio to Pictou notwithstanding the fact that he met this heavy ice east of Point Prim, and where he had to stop the boat and butt the ice three times. He had to go round the eastern entrance to Pictou, which lengthened the route to over 60 miles, and he did it in five hours. Captain Brown, the captain of the vessel, was empowered to make the effort again.
I thought this matter of sufficient importance to Prince Edward Island for me to get such information with regard to it as I could, so I telegraphed and wrote to the secretary of the Board of Trade and to this same Captain Myers, who wrote the report a few years ago, asking particulars of the cause of the 'Earl Grey' being transferred to Pictou, when, I understood, the entrance to Charlottetown harbour, the harbour itself and the straits outside the harbour were in the best condition for the steamer to get through. The report I had here, indirectly, as I mentioned, was that the vessel had met with heavy ice. However, I thought it better to be definite. So, I wrote to Mr. Miller, the secretary of the Board of Trade. I now quote his reply so far as it relates to this matter:
I have taken, considerable pains to ascertain the facts in connection with the sudden change in going to Georgetown and find the captain acted solely on his own judgment. When he left Charlottetown he intended returning, but when he got round Point Prim and down towards Wood Islands he met such heavy ice that even the ' Earl Grey ' had. to make three smashes to penetrate it. As it was a very cold day and the ice was making fast, the captain concluded it would be best to go to Georgetown. Under the circumstances, I do not think any person could blame him.
I agree with that.
To-day he is back again in Charlottetown, and may be depended upon to give this port a fair trial.
He came back to Charlottetown on the 25th having been away a week. And, from that time until now, he has been making his regular trip. And the ' Minto has joined in the service and both are making the trip. And they will be able to make the trip so long as there is no continuance of northeast winds. We are liable to have an

east wind, which will fill up the eastern end of the straits and Pictou harbour, so that the vessels will again be unable to make their course. Captain Myers, the man who made the report and survey a few years ago, gives me as^the reason the following :
The boat made the time to Pictou (from Charlottetown) in five hours, very good time for mid-winter, but she had to go round Pictou island at least fifteen miles further, >the reason was that the ice was packed in Carribou channel, and between the Indian Rocks and Carribou the ice stopped the boat three times and was very much rafted together. She left here (Charlottetown) and never stopped until after she rounded Point Prim. The trouble all lies between Carribou channel on account of the scarcity of water and the ice around Indian Rocks, that lies straight across the straits. The boat could cross from here to Cape John any day since she had to leave here.
It seems to me that the reports of men who know what they are talking about, thoroughly sound and accomplished men, ought to carry weight and convince every reasonable man as to how matters stand in this regard. Before leaving Charlottetown harbour again, I wish to point out that, in order to make Charlottetown harbour, a perfect winter port, some effective aids of navigation must be provided. When the ice comes in the autumn, the buoys are taken up, so, when the ships come into the harbour, they have to depend entirely upon the lights. Again, in winter, especially when there is ice, there is at times a haze rising from the water, and this haze prevents the men on board the steamers from seeing the lights which are four or five miles away. What is needed in order to make the harbour accessible in any weather is a lighthouse on St. Peter's island bar outside of Charlottetown. This bar runs out from St. Peter's island, and is a sandstone bar, and at low tide there is a depth of five or six feet of water on it. There should be a light there and also a steam whistle. Once the vessel picked up the whistle or the light it would have no difficulty in getting into Charlottetown, because these aids to navigation will overcome the trouble arising from the haze. Of course, there is no difficulty at all so long as the weather is fair. These important aids to navigation are not required solely in the interests of the winter service; they have been looked for by shipowners and others for some time. I have here a copy of a memorial presented to the Charlottetown Board of Trade on this point. It is as follows:
Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island,
February 9, 1909. To the President and Council,
Charlottetown Board of Trade,
Gentlemen,-The undersigned master mariners and owners of sailing vessels sailing to
and from the port of Charlottetown respectfully request your board to use its influence in having a lighthouse with a steam whistle attached-erected on the end of the bar extending from the east end of St. Peter's island-outside Charlottetown.
Now that very large steamers sometimes visit our port, this light has become a necessity, and if built with a steam whistle attached," vessels could make the harbour without difficulty, whereas at present, especially after the buoys are lifted, Charlottetown is an extremely difficult place to make, owing to this long bar.
Charlottetown has one of the finest harbours in the lower provinces, and is a superior and safe port for shelter. With the requested aid to navigation installed-lighthouse and steam whistle-it would not only facilitate ordinary trade, but would be of inestimable benefit to the shipping interests in stormy weather.
This is signed by a number of vessel owners and agents of steamship lines. I think this is sufficient with regard to Charlottetown harbour. The most likely harbour on the mainland coast would be situated in Tatamagouche bay. I cannot say whether it would be best to place it inside Cape John on Tatamagouche bay or the peninsula sometimes called West Brule point; or it might be on the Tatamagouche side. My opinion is that in one of these sections you will find plenty of water on which to make a pier. After last session, being very much interested in this matter, I went over with some others to look at the bay. We sounded off Peninsular point at half tide and found 27 feet of water. Also we found deep water on the Cape John side and on the other side. When we spoke of this matter last year, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Brodeur) said that he would take measures to have a survey made. He carried out his promise, and men have been there surveying the county to ascertain where the pier could best be built. To carry out the idea would require a pier and a short spur of railway.' The Oxford branch of the Intercolonial is within half a mile of the Tatamagouche -side and within three miles of the Cape John side. The pier would be, perhaps, 900 feet long. I do not think it would be more; 900 feet is what I estimated roughly. Again, if the line of railway were built through to Truro-and it has been mooted for some time and it will certainly be built-it would afford the most direct line, at a distance^ of from 30 to 32 miles, for a connection with the main line at Truro and with the Dominion Atlantic railway, giving the shortest route by 100 miles or more between Prince Edward Island and Boston and other eastern ports of the United States. If the government were to undertake the building of that line, it would seem the businesslike thing. to do. But there is strong reason to believe that, if the government do not want to build it, the Dominion

Atlantic would be ready to do so. I believe that the Nova Scotia government would be ready to give a bonus of $5,000 a mile, and I am under the impression that the Dominion, government would pay $3,200 a mile.^ There would be no difficulty in building the road, and there can be no question that, when running, it would increase the Dominion Atlantic receipts very much. The only question is whether it would not be wiser, as it is close to the Intercolonial and will connect at Truro, for the government to build a branch if it is to be built. However, that is a matter for them to decide, on which I do not propose to offer an opinion. Then at the mouth of Tatamagouche bay, almost exactly in the [DOT]centre of a line crossing the mouth, is Am-let island, on which there is a lighthouse now. It is a small island, not much larger than these buildings. That lighthouse ought to be equipped with a steam whistle, and that I think would be all the additional aid required on that side. The more inquiry there is made about the Tatamagouche bay site, the more satisfied people must become that it is an ideal winter port. No wind that blows can block it; it is near the centre of the strait where the tide meets so that there is little fluctuation and the current is only about half a mile an hour; it is protected on the east by Pictou island, and by Cape Bear on the Prince Edward shore. On the north it is protected by Prince Edward Island itself. The western ice never gets up to the middle of the straits, it blocks at the western end. The western end of Prince Edward Island looks like part of the mainland; in fact, when Jacques Cartier discovered the island he sailed around there and not finding a harbour sailed back, he did not see where the entrance to the straits was, and did not know he had discovered an island. Then the western ice is never as heavy as the ice from the east that causes the difficulty at other places. Last year at the board of trade of the maritime provinces this matter was taken up, and after 'thorough discussion the following resolution was passed:
Whereas, the terms of union made and entered into between Canada and the province of Prince Edward Island in the year 1873, provided for continuous steam communication winter and summer, between the said province and the mainland.
And whereas, the routes hitherto in use by the winter steamers have failed to fulfil that condition-resulting in serious loss and inconvenience to the people of the province, and considerable loss to the Dominion by way of compensation for said non-fulfilment of" the terms of union.
This board of trade of the maritime provinces desires to express its opinion that in justice to the province, as well as to the whole Dominion, an attempt should now be made by the new winter steamer ' Earl Grey ' to solve the question of continuous winter steam com-Mr. WAKBITRTON.
munication, and recommend to that end that a complete survey of the approaches and possible pier sites in the Bay of Tatamagouche be made by the Dominion government without delay; and that if found feasible and practicable that route should be adopted hereafter, being considerably shorter in distance, and very much less liable to be packed with gulf ice than Pictou harbour, as found by actual and long experience of over thirty-six years.
That survey has been made and for that report among other papers, I am moving.
The officials of the Department of Marine and Fisheries have taken considerable trouble in this matter; they sent their representative down to make a thorough and accurate survey of this section. His instructions were to survey only inside of Cape John, but I suggested to the department that while they were about it they should survey all around and I believe that was done.
In speaking of the summer route I shall not refer to the steamship service at the western end, between Summerside and Point du Chene. They provided an excellent service and I do not know that any one has found fault with it. The Steam Navigation Company of Prince Edward Island have two fine steamers running between Charlottetown and Pictou and Summerside and Point du Chene. But like many people who have been for thirty or forty or fifty years in one groove, it is hard to get them out of that groove. Forty-five or fifty years ago the summer steamer was run between Charlottetown and Brule in Tatamagouche bay, but when the railway was built to Pictou she transferred from Brule to Pictou to make connection with the railway which of course was the most sensible thing to do at that time. Had the railway been built to Brule af that time, they would not have left Brule, because it is more convenient. The Brule route would shorten the distance materially. As we are now situated in summer it takes three days to get to Halifax and do a day's business and return, unless you leave Halifax at seven o'clock in the morning which is too early to do any business, you cannot get away until the next day, so that it takes three days no matter how short the business may be. Taking the other route it would be practicable to make two round trips a day between Charlottetown and Brule. The distance is twenty-five miles while the distance to Pictou is fifty-four miles, and the distance on land is also somewhat shortened. By the present route from Charlottetown to Pictou and from Pictou to Halifax we have to travel 170 miles. Crossing over to Tatamagouche and going by Brule, you cut sixty miles off that distance, making the trip 110 miles. It will at once be seen what a handicap this distance is. The service is not run to

accommodate our people at all, they have to stop at Pictou and other places and we do not think that this delay is right, fair or necessary. If the route I suggest is adopted for the summer steamers there would be no difficulty, with proper connections, in doing business in Halifax, which ought to be our principal winter port, within a reasonable time. I brought this matter to the attention of the Department of Trade and Commerce and also of this House last session, and pointed these things out to them. They brought the matter to the' attention of the Steam Navigation Company. I pointed out that the reason there was so little trade and passenger communication with Halifax was that the means of communication were so poor that the transportation facilities were so bad and slow that we simply went elsewhere, and I thought it was in the interests of our friends in Halifax and along that line to back us up in getting an improvement made. I put down the smallness of the traffic then at Halifax to that fact of the deficient accommodation, but when the department applied to the Steam Navigation Company the secretary wrote and said it would not do at all as only 3 per cent of their passenger traffic was to Halifax. In other words they gave the reason why they did not do business as a reason why they should not attempt to do business. No business man who is alive and looking after his own interests would make that as an excuse; he might know that the reason he did very little business was that the facili-' ties were not afforded. Give the facilities and the business will be done. That could almost be called a business maxim, improve the transportation and you will improve the trade. The Steam Navigation Company have splendid ships and do good work on their line, but you cannot get them out of their groove. They have a contract to carry the mails and carry them well, they treat you well on board and it is hard to say anything against' them, but I am talking business.
They say there is no reason why they should make two trips a day backward and forward, and they say it is not required all the time. I think it is not required all the time, but it is required part of the time. They say that they have to take in freight and that it is impossible for them to make two trips a day each way. To a certain extent I admit that. There are certain times of the year when they are handling a great quantity of freight and therefore what they say at that time will be perfectly true. At that time we do not want them to make two trips a day. There is no passenger traffic in the spring and fall when the steamers are leaving Charlottetown and Summerside loaded down with freight, but, in the summer months, from June until
the latter part of September, they have very little freight, and they are carrying a very .arge and rapidly increasing number of passengers. The passenger traffic on these boats during the summer months is such that the boats are absolutely over-crowded. The crowd is so great that it is almost impossible to get a seat. The saloons and every place where people can find standing room are crowded, but that does not last the whole season. We do not ask them to make two round trips in the spring and fall when the press of freight traffic is on, but all we ask them to do is to make two trips a day when the big passenger and tourist traffic is on. Not only has the passenger and tourist traffic increased rapidly, but it is bound to go on increasing. Prince Edward Island is becoming rapidly recognized as one of the most desirable summer resorts during the mid-summeT months, the number of tourists last year was greater than ever before, and I expect that the number during the present year will be greater than that of last year. So that, as far as that contention goes, I think there is nothing in it. If, when tenders are next called for the carrying of the mails, and you give the companies the alternative of running between Brule and Charlottetown and between Pictou and Charlottetown, the contention is set up that the companies find it impossible to give a good service between Brule and Charlottetown, I will undertake to say that I will find a company to do it.
I understood from the minister before Christmas that it was the intention to send an inspector to Tatamagouche bay to inspect the ice conditions there during the present winter. I understand that a man is down there and I hope in the not distant future to have his report. I have gone into this matter somewhat exhaustively and at greater length than I had intended to, but I thought when I was about it that I would like to make a clear statement of the_ conditions as far as I was able to do it. I wish to Tefer to a statement I made last year about whiqh I was hauled over the coals at a local election in Prince Edward Island and also in the press. I am not looking for the pound of flesh; I am not one of those who believe in the pound of flesh theory. It has been the custom for Prince Edward Islanders to look for the pound of flesh, or rather, for members who represented the people of Prince Edward Island, or papers who pretended to represent them, to insist upon their pound of flesh. It was not the true voice of Prince Edward Island and I do not propose to speak in that way. I think it is a poor way of going about this business. What I want to do is to take a fair and reasonable view of this matter. I believe that

anything that tends to the improvement of transportation between different ports of the Dominion tends to build up the Dominion, and I like to place anything in the shape of a public work on the principle of the general good of the country, not upon the principle of the pound of flesh, not upon any hard and fast, cut and dried resolution, but on the ground that it is going to be for the general good of Canada. Improvements in transportation between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, while almost vital to us, are of very great importance to the people of the mainland. There is no part of Canada in which the merchants and manufacturers like better to sell their wares than in Prince Edward Island. Prince Edward Islanders have the reputation of being the best payers there are; they are the largest buyers per head and the farmers, taking them man for man, are the best off amongst the farming population of Canada. There are no wealthy men, there are no poor men, but they all buy and use manufactured goods. An enormous quantity of manufactured goods is sold and paid for in Prince Edward Island considering the population of the island. It is upon that ground and upon the ground of union and consolidation that I wish to place this matter before the House. Mr. Speaker, I apologize for taking up so much of your time, but I now close by moving the resolution which stands in my name.
Mr.'E. M. MACDONALD (Pictou). Mr. Speaker, I have not had the pleasure of listening to the long and interesting statement of the case presented by my hon. friend from Queens, Prince Edward Island (Mr. Warburton). Those who are interested in the advocacy of the cause which he presents cannot say that my hon. friend has not brought to bear upon his proposi tion a great deal of industry, a great deal of care and that he has not presented it with some elaboration. I do not propose to follow him through the various phases of the subject as he has discussed it, and there are one or two points only t-o which I would like to refer. My hon. friend has spoken of the fact that the boats of the Prince Edward Island Navigation Company do not give that service to the people of the island which is desired or which he thinks is in their best interests. I have taken occasion in a previous discussion of this question, to point out that the solution of the inconvenience which my hon. friend complains of would be arrived if by these boats, instead of running from Charlottetown to the mainland in the morning and returning at night, would start from the mainland in the morning and return there at night. The result would be, in so far as connection with Nova Scotia is Mr. WARBURTON.
concerned, that not only would the outside world be able to get on this tight little island very much more expeditiously than they now do, but the people there could get away from it and get back whenever they had business to do very .much more satisfactorily than they can under the present arrangement. I am surprised that my hon. friend should once more undertake to entertain the House about this imaginary ice bar that forms in front of the mouth of the Pictou harbour. I was born in the little town of Pictou and have lived there some forty years. Only once in all the years during which communication has been maintained from that place with Prince Edward Island has an ice barrier existed there at the time of winter navigation. Since that accidental circumstance which occurreed some years ago hon. gentlemen in discussing this question have talked about as if it were a permanent and continuous obstruction that came as sure as the winter came. Any hon. gentleman who wants-to make an argument for better facilities for Prince Edward Island, whether by increased facilities or a.change of route, and who rests his argument upon the basis which has no existence in fact and which is an accidental circumstance which should not be used as the basis of any argument for a change in the conditions of affairs. The unfortunate thing for my hon. friend's proposition is that other hon. gentlemen from Prince Edward Island do not agree with him. I have not heard the remarks of the hon. gentlemen who come from the east of the island, but I venture the prediction that they will not agree with my hon. friend from Queens in the proposition that the present winter port should be changed and that a new and experimental route should be established between Charlottetown and Tatamagouche.
There are some things in my hon. friend's proposition which are worthy of consideration, but the. government and the country would naturally expect that before conditions are to be changed there should at least be absolute unanimity on the part of the people who are making the request. At Pictou you have had for years large sums expended on terminal facilities. We have had facilities existent there for almost half a century, and an established trade, and before all that is abandoned there must be some good reason given for a large expenditure elsewhere. When the hon. gentleman talks about Tatamagouche and Brule, those of us who live on the mainland, whose judgment is formed not by theory or on the strength of the accidental visit of a gentleman who goes over on a junketing excursion in the summer time know that it would cost $1,000,000 to the people of this country to provide at Tatamagouche and Brule the facilities that

the hon. gentleman speaks of. The dredging that would have to be done to enable you to reach either of these points, outside of every other consideration, would be so vast that hon. gentlemen on the other side who sometimes think that the Minister of Public Works is very enterprising, would stand aghast at it. There is only one possibly feasible point on the mainland in Tatamagouche bay, with deep water and possible conditions, and that is Cape John. If my hon. friend (Mr. Warburton) can induce the good people of Prince Edward Island, who are interested in this matter, to press for communication there in the summer time at least, before we make experiments in the winter, I would be glad to aid in anything that can be done in furthering a favourable consideration of that proposition. But, the proposition as advanced by my hon. friend (Mr. Warburton) is one that should be approached with the greatest possible care. Communication between Charlottetown and Cape John is the only phase of the proposition made by my hon. friend '(Mr. Warburton) that is worthy of consideration or investigation, and that may be feasible. But there are difficulties in the way; difficulties with regard to expenditure and with regard to changing existing conditions, and these would have to be considered. The proposition to go to Tatamagouche bay or Brule cannot be considered as a reasonable proposition. I would like my hon. friend (Mr. Warburton) to get the people of Prince Edward Island to agree on his proposition before he attempts to dangle it before the eyes of the people of Nova Scotia. We on the mainland have practical knowledge of the conditions, and1 we would like to see some unanimity and consensus of opinion with regard to these suggestions in order that they may be fully and fairly considered, and in order that the country might look upon them as worthy of consideration.


James William Maddin: Mr. Speaker, I draw the attention of the House to the fact that as an inducement to Prince Edward Island to enter confederation, the parliament of Canada promised the people of that province continuous communication between the island and the mainland. For over 40 years the harbour of Pictou has been used as a port of entry from Prince Edward Island, but I would point out that Pictou harbour is open to the northeasterly gales which prevail during the spring months and is but a pocket for the drift ice which is carried from Hudson bay and the Arctic into the Northumberland straits. For the last 36 or 37 years the port of Pictou has been tried and found wanting. It was promised to the people of Prince Edward Island that under this administration the communication would be made at Brule or Tatamagouche
bay, the distance from which across the Straits of Northumberland is less than the distance by the present Pictou route. It must also be remembered that the tide flow at Brule is considerably less, and that the drift ice cannot form as it does at Pictou harbour. As was pointed out by my hon. friend (Mr. Warburton) such i.s the formation of drift ice in Pictou harbour that in the winter of 1905 communication with the island was cut off for a period of 59 days. It is not alone the concern of the people of Prince Edward Island that there should be continuous communication by steam navigation throughout the year, because the people of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are also interested. Prince Edward Island can produce all the meats and vegetables that are necessary to supply us, and we should naturally get our supplies from the island, but on account of the uncertainty of communication we are obliged to buy from Ontario during a large part of the year. But the supply is not continuous, the people of Nova Scotia are obliged to buy from the people of Ontario. There is no assurance that purchases made in Charlottetown or in Sydney for delivery during the winter months will be delivered, there being no continuous communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. I wish to point out that the harbour of Pictou lies directly exposed to the gales of the northeast and to the flow of ice from the straits of Belle Isle, which retard the spring. This ice field, becoming embanked behind the island of Pictou, and in the Strait of Northumberland behind the island of Prince Edward, lies in such a way that the prevailing temperatures congeal it into hard ice; and I regret that the hon. member who moved this resolution did not press the question on the government as to how often the boat leaving Pictou was obliged to exchange its passengers with the boat leaving the island by reason of the formation of ice between the two. If the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Stanfield) were present he would be able to point out to this House that so favourable was the Liberal government of Nova Scotia to the purport of this resolution that in the elections of 1906 such members of that government and supporters of it as the Hon., now Mr. Justice, Lawrence, and the Hon. B. F. Pearson, pledged themselves to insist upon the permanent route between Prince Edward Island and the mainland being by Brule or the harbour of Tatamagouche, or they would resign their seats. They said that a line of railway constructed from Tatamagouche bay to the town of Truro would save passengers from the island to the mainland at least twelve hours. In view of the fact that the currents in Northumberland strait move in an easterly direction, and the fact that the dist-

ance between Georgetown and Brule, although greater in miles, is in such a geographical position as to exclude the diift ice which comes down from the Strait of Belle Isle, it is up to this government to make an effort towards keeping their pledge by installing a steamer between Prince Edward Island and Brule. At the time the province of British Columbia came into confederation the parliament of Canada promised it continuous communication by rail between the Atlantic and the Pacific. At that time there were only
11,000	people living westward of the Rocky mountains, yet the government of that time, under the late Sir John A. Macdonald, with Sir Charles Tupper as Minister of Railways, did not hesitate to make good their pledge to the people of British Columbia by securing the construction of the Canadian Pacific railway. Efforts were made from time to time by the late Conservative administration to connect Prince Edward Island with the mainland. It was hoped that this might be done by means of an ice-breaking steamship. The 'Stanley' was introduced. She has been tried and found wanting. Since that effort, which was a progressive effort on the part of the Liberal-Conservative administration, great innovations have taken place. It remains for this government either to grant a tunnel to the people of Prince Edward Island or to change the route for steamship travel from Pictou to another and more favourable route, which will maintain continuous steam communication between the island and the other provinces of the Dominion. In the province of Nova Scotia there are many consumers of such products as are produced on the island of Prince Edward. There are people who bring to Nova Scotia during the summer months, Prince Edward Island beef, eggs, butter and other farm products. These people would be glad to continue their patronage to the island during all the twelve months of the year; but this bar of non-continuous communication with the mainland prevents them doing so. If this resolution were given effect to, and if Tatamagouche bay instead of the harbour of Pictou were made the point of arrival, with a branch line of railway to the town of Truro, the people of Nova Scotia would consume, during the winter months, Prince Edward Island beef instead of Ontario beef, as they do now, and Prince Edward Island would be placed in a position that would enable it to compete with the western provinces of Canada all the year round.


Mr. L. E. PROWSE (Queens, P.E.I.).: I desire to add a few words to the discussion of this very important question. It may not appear very important to other parts of Canada, but to the pro-Mr. MADDIN.
vince I have the honour to represent, with my colleagues, it is a vital one. The transportation question for our farmers has been for many years a burning question, and I congratulate my hon. friend and colleague from Queens, P.E.I., (Mr. War-burton), on the diligence with which he has collected data, and the ability with which he has presented it to this House to-day. I was a little surprised to hear the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) say that after having lived in Pictou for so many years he had never seen barrier ice there but once in his life. Well, Sir, I can say for my part that I have waited outside Pictou harbour for a week or several days at a time, without being able to land. On one occasion the steamer was held in the ice outside Pictou harbour for fifty-nine consecutive days, and at that time it was estimated that the farmers of Prince Edward Island lost over $200,000 on their potatoes alone. They had large quantities of potatoes which they were obliged to leave in their cellars to rot; they could not ship them on account of the steamer being tied up by the ice. I admit that this government has made some honest efforts to improve our transportation facilities. But there is one thing that this government and no other government can do, and that is to change the conditions of the harbour ice. Of course I do not blame the hon. member for Pictou for defending his local harbour. I do not know of any representative in this House that works harder for his constituency than does that hon. gentleman. Sometimes we have to run up against him, because we think that he works a little too hard for the interests of Pictou and incidentally against those of Prince Edward Island. I am sorry the hon, gentleman is not present at this moment, because I do not want to say anything about him in his absence that I would not say in his presence. I was hoping that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries would see his way clear this winter to have left the 'Stanley' there, so that a thorough test could be made of this new route, and that the government could have all the information they need as to the feasibility of this route. No doubt it would be a great advantage to the people of Prince Edward Island if this new route were adopted, because it would do away with the three short hauls which are now an obstacle to transportation. The freight costs almost three times as much as it does from Montreal. Let me give the House a few figures. From Montreal to St. John it costs ten and a half cents per 100 pounds for 735 miles. From Montreal to Halifax ten and a half cents per 100 pounds for 832 miles. From Montreal to Sydney sixteen and a half cents per 100 pounds for 977 miles. The regular rate on grain carloads from Tignish, P.E.I., to St.

. John, is twenty-six cents per 100 pounds for 432 miles. From Tignish to Halifax it is twenty-three cents per 100 pounds for 309 miles; from Tignish to Sydney, twenty-six cents per 100 pounds for 308 miles. So you see that the farmers on the island are greatly handicapped on account of the excessive rates of freight. I believe that if this new route could be adopted there would not be any trouble. A company could be formed that would put a large car-carrying steamer on the route, and that would do away entirely with the three short hauls, because the large cars of the Intercolonial could be brought over and placed on the wharf and reloaded on island cars. This [DOT]would be a great convenience to our population over present conditions.


Mr. A. L. FRASER (Kings, P.E.I.).: The importance of this subject to my province justifies me in making a few remarks. Year after year this House has listened to a discussion of this question, and it is still necessary to recur to it frequently. While I am pleased to say that some progress has been made during the last few years in giving us better transportation facilities, much remains to be done in that line. I think if this government put forth a little more effort and paid a little more attention to this question than thev have been doing, that without much expense they could considerably increase our transportation facilities. I will not say much as to the relative advantages of the different ports on. the mainland, because I do not pretend to have as much knowledge of the Brule route as those gentlemen possess who have made a special study of this question. But I want to tell the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald), who I see is not in his seat, that if there is one thing upon which the people of Prince Edward Island are united, it is in the opinion that the Pictou harbour is the poorest harbour on the mainland for winter navigation. Let the government make no mistake on that point. The hon. member for Pictou almost taunted us to-night because we were not unanimous upon any route; but we are unanimous in the belief that the Pictou harbour offers the poorest harbour for winter navigation of any that can be mentioned. Let the government take that much for granted. Then I trust they will go on and make a good survey, and obtain sufficient knowledge to enable them to give us a better harbour. This is not my opinion only. I have studied the records and the reports of the surveyors that have been sent down by this government and by other governments, and I find there is a unanimous expression of opinion from these surveyors in their reports that Pictou harbour, on account of its shape and its situation, is certainly the least feasible
on the mainland for winter navigation. It is a V-shaped harbour, opening towards the northeast, and without any protection whatever. When the northeast and easterly winds blow the ice into that harbour, the whole harbour is blocked with ice, and navigation is completely stopped.
As to whether the people of Prince Edward Island are entitled to continuous navigation with the mainland, I do not think that question needs to be debated to-night. I was surprised on a recent occasion to hear the Minister of Finance, who I regret is not in his seat, though he seldom is absent, express the opinion that he did not believe it was binding on this government or on any government to give us continuous communication with the mainland. But I believe it is. The obligation is surely in our contract, and it would not be there if it was not meant to be valid. It surely must mean something or it would not be there, and if it means anything, it means that this government is obliged to give us continuous communication with the mainland in winter and in summer. A large percentage of the people of Prince Edward Island are united on this point also, that a tunnel will be the only complete and satisfactory solution' of the difficulty. When this subject was before the House on a previous occasion, the Finance Minister (Mr. Fielding) promised as much perhaps as he could in anything, that during the coming summer, or in the near future, and of the advisability and possibility of the tunnel would be thoroughly gone into. Speaking on behalf of those who have placed their hopes of the solution of this difficulty in the construction of a tunnel, I hope and trust that this government will, at an early day, make a proper survey of the Straits of Northumberland with a view to having a tunnel constructed if possible. This would obviate the difficulty we have in winter navigation.	[DOT]
Our difficulties of winter navigation are not our only difficulties. We have at present great drawbacks in our summer navigation. At present, the transportation of our mails and passengers and of a great deal of our freight is in the hands of a concern called the Steam Navigation Company. The people of Prince Edward Island, in the last few years, have become dissatisfied with the rates and with the service of that company. For my part, speaking as a passenger, I have no fault to find with the passenger service given by that company. But the rates charged and the facilities offered for transportation of freight are not up to date and not such as will satisfy the people. So that to-day a large percentage of the people of Prince Edward Island are thoroughly dissatisfied with the summer navigation of the Straits of Northumberland as conducted by the Steam

Navigation Company-almost as large a percentage as are dissatisfied with the winter navigation. And, as the hon. member for Queens county (Mr. Warburton) has said, I hope that when tenders are again called for, this matter will be earnestly considered by this government, with a view to giving the people better transportation rates and facilities.
I was surprised to hear the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. E. M. Macdonald) say, as I understood him, that the solution, of the difficulty would be to send all steamers from the mainland in the morning and get them back in the evening. That, as I understood him, would solve the question of the navigation of the straits in winter.


Mr. E. M. MACDONALD.: In summer. They do it now in winter.


Austin Levi Fraser: I cannot see how navigation could be made better, winter or summer by the steamers leaving one particular side every morning. I am aware that the government has spent a great deal of money in Pictou. No doubt it has inured to the benefit of the hon. member for that county. No doubt he is one of those who, in the last election, said to the people: See all the money I have got for the county; see what I have done for you. But that is not saying the money was spent all for the public benefit.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The hon. member (Mr. Fraser) intimates that the money was not spent for the public benefit. I think I have a right to ask what he means by that. Has he any statement to make with reference to the money spent in Pictou or the results to the country?


Austin Levi Fraser: I do not understand the question.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: The hon. gentleman undertook to say that the money spent in Pictou was not spent for the public benefit. Will the hon. member state to what expenditures he refers?


Austin Levi Fraser: I did not say it was not spent for the public benefit; I said that the hon. member (Mr. Macdonald) himself received a great deal of benefit from it.


Edward Mortimer Macdonald: In what way?


Austin Levi Fraser: Politically.


Mr. JAMES W. RICHARDS (Prince, P.E.I.).: The question of transportation between Prince Edward Island and the mainland is, no doubt, one of very great importance, not only to the people of the island, but to the people of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia as well. The question of winter navigation has been so completely dealt wit|h by my hon. friend from Queens, Prince Edward Island (Mr. Warburton) that I shall not repeat what he has said.


Austin Levi Fraser: 
Mr. WM. CHISHOLM (Antigonish).: Mr. Speaker, I shall not take up the time of the House in discussing this- matter. As a matter of fact, I had not anticipated taking any part in the discussion, and would not

but for some observations that were made. I -desire to call the attention of the government and of the House to the fact that there is still another -route that has not been emphasized by hon. gentlemen who have spoken, a route that I claim will furnish a solution of the whole difficulty. It is idle to say that there is no grievance, that the people of the island are satisfied. All one has to do is to look at the ' Hansards ' ever since Prince Edward Island became a part of confederation and he will find year after year complaint on the part of the people of the island because of the treatment they were receiving in the matter of winter communication particularly. In the mass of information that was brought down last session, the session before last and in previous sessions, you will find resolutions of the Charlottetown Board of Trade, of the Maritime Board of Trade, of the Halifax Board of Trade, of the legislature of the province of Prince Edward Island, all bemoaning the treatment that Prince Edward Island was accorded in the matter of communication. The difficulty should be easily solved. It is a question of what is the best route, of ascertaining which is the most feasible route to maintain communication. Several routes have been tested. The Capes route, to which reference has been made by the hon. member for Prince, has been tested and has been declared to be ' a political and not a practical route.' There was a great deal of information brought down two years ago in reference to that route. Tests were made in the winter seasons of 1901, in 1902, and in 1903, and after it was tested the route had to be abandoned. Then, you have in summer time, the Charlottetown and Pietou route. When navigation closes, Charlottetown has to -be abandoned, and it struck me as rather extraordinary when I heard my hon. friend from Queens advocating the Charlottetown-Brule route. If the Charlottetown-Pictou route has to be abandoned as soon as winter opens, how is the Charlottetown-Brule route going to meet the requirements? If Charlotteown is not available as a winter port, then I contend that connecting it with Brule or Tatamagouche bay, is not going to better the situation.


Alexander Bannerman Warburton: The northern ice that is driven down the straits by the northeast wind is stopped up short at Point Prim, ten miles east of Charlottetown, and it does not interfere with the Charlottetown route.


Mr.   WM@: CHISHOLM Yes; but as I read the documents that have been brought down upon this subiect, they state that Charlottetown is not a good winter port. On the contrary, it is very much the opposite.
It is approached by a long, winding, nar-Mr. W. CHISHOLM. *
row channel, and although they have spent a great deal of money in the way of improvements and aids to navigation, and have done a great deal to improve Charlottetown harbour, it is conceded on all sides that Georgetown is the only winter port on the island. It is true that this year they have been running between Charlottetown and Pietou late in the season, and perhaps up to this date, but at any moment Georgetown is liable to be substituted for Charlottetown. Every one admits that Georgetown is one of the hest harbours in Prince Edward Island. No one has every thrown any -doubt upon the fact that Georgetown is open the whole winter long. The winter port on the island side is Georgetown. What you want to do is to test the various routes suggested by speakers -on this subject and adopt whatever route proves to be the best. I submit that as far as Brule, or Tatamagouche bay, is concerned, we have not very much to hope for there because the conditions, if I understood the Minister of Marine last year aright, are very much the same as those which are found in Pi-ctou harbour, and it would take an immense amount of money to have piers built and provide the accommodations that will be necessary, and even then it is very doubtful if a satisfactory winter route -can be found. There is, however, another route, the route which I suggest, and it is the Georgetown-Cape George route. This is a most desirable route by reason of the fact that there is plenty of sea room, and by reason of the condition of the tides and currents between Georgetown and Cape George ensuring open water all the year round. Three years ago, some time in March or April, when Pietou harbour was blocked for about ten days and was inaccessible, a. schooner laden with coal went from Hastings across to Georgetown, and I am told by sea captains and people who have spent all their lives along the coast, that Cape George has at all times open water. Two years ago when the ex-member for Kings, Prince Edward Island, was coming up here to Ottawa he was detained five or six days at Pietou harbour, while there was no difficulty about landing along the coast near Cape George.	This is not a new route. This
was suggested as far back as 1874 by the hon. member representing Kings at that time (Mr. McIntyre). He stated, what is generally conceded in the locality, that there is always open water between Georgetown and Cape George. During that same session the then member for Ant-igonish county (Mr. Mclsaac) pointed out that to his own knowledge, passengers had been landed at Malignant Cove. Arisaig and Cape George, when they could not get near Pietou. I know that a few years ago, when Pietou harbour was inaccessible, they had
3205*

to land their passengers and mails somewhere near Cape George. I wish to direct the attention of the government to the necessity of properly testing this George-town-Cape George route, and if it is found to be what we claim for it, by all means adopt it. A promise was made by the late Minister of Marine and Fisheries, in a letter to me, dated November 3, 1905, that this route would be tested at the proper time. I had a similar promise from the present minister, whose absence we all regret, in a letter dated the 28th August, 1906, in which I called his attention to the rumour in the newspapers that there was a test to be made of the Brule route. He promised then that he would see that the Georgetown-Oape George route was tested when the proper time ,came. In view of what has been done in the way of surveys of Tatamagouche bay, I think the time has come when the promise of the minister should be taken seriously to heart. Representations have been made regarding the proposed route on the floor of this House time and again, almost as far back as 1874. These representations were made by the member for Kings to whom I referred, by the member for An-tigonish, my predecessor, and by his predecessor. I think that these representations and the representations made by me to the department verbally and in writing are sufficient to justify a test being made,, and I hope as I sincerely believe the government will carry out the promise that was made bv the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and his predecessor and have this test made as soon as possible.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved the adjournment of the House.
Frederick Debartzch Monk: Mr. Speaker, before ti e House adjourns I would like to ask the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) if it would not be possible to give a second reading to Bill (No. 26) on Co-operative Loan and Credit Banks. The reason 1 am asking this is that throughout the course of the discussion on the first Bill presented respecting co-operation, the hon. Postmaster General (Mr. Lemieux) will remember, that there was no objection whatever as to the feature of co-operation. There was strenuous objection to productive and distributive co-operative societies, but no objection was made at any stage of the Bill to small banks, and loan and credit societies. Under these circumstances this year I presented a Bill for the purpose of legally organizing loan and credit societies feeling certain that upon that feature at
any rate there would be no opposition whatever. The hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Harris) has presented a general, comprehensive co-operative Bill which, I understand, is opposed by certain interests, but there are no interests whatever that have any such opposition to these credit banks. They have been approved of by the bankers association. Under these circumstances and as that feature of cooperation has developed very much in the province of Quebec principally, and as there has been no objection to the first Bill in regard to that particular aspect of it. I think my request commends itself to the right hon. the Prime Minister. If my Bill were read a second time now and even a third time, if possibly there is any opposition, it might be offered in the Senate.


Wilfrid Laurier: I understand it is the wish of the House that this Bill should be considered, I have no objection at all that it should be read a second time and submitted to the committee, I cannot agree that it should be read a third time because I know there are some persons who want to be heard in opposition to it. I withdraw my motion that the House adjourn.



SECOND READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 26) respecting co-operative credit societies.-Mr. Monk.
Bill (No. 50) respecting co-operation.- Mr. Monk.
On the motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, the House adjourned at 10 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, February 8, 1910.