1910-12-16

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 59) respecting the Athabaska Northern Railway Company.-Mr. Turriff.
Bill (No. 60) respecting the Lake Champlain and St. Lawrence Ship Canal Company.-Mr. Geoffrion.
Bill (No. 61) respecting the Pontiac Central Railway Company.-Mr. Bicker-dike.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.: Mr. Speaker, it appears that a motion moved by the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) on the 14th instant was defective in form. It demanded a statement showing the cost of the Senate of Canada for each year since the fiscal year 1896. That information can only be obtained by a message to the Senate. I therefore beg to move, on behalf of Mr. Foster :
That a message be sent to the Senate requesting that tlieir honours will be pleased to grant to this House a statement showing the cost of the Senate of Canada for each year since the fiscal year 1896, under the headings of the number of senators, indemnity, travelling expenses, printing, stationery and contingencies.
I have been asked by Mr. Foster to make this motion to correct a defect in form which was called to his attention toy the officers of the House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: I gave notice some time ago that I would move the following motion :
That when the House adjourns on Friday, the 16th instant, it stand adjourned to Tuesday, the 10th of January next.
It has been represented to me toy several members from the maritime provinces that it would be very inconvenient for them to be here on the 10th of January, as they would have to leave on Saturday and travel all day Sunday. If agreeable, therefore, I will change the date to the 11th of January.
Motion as amended, agreed to.



PRIVATE BILLS.

Wilfrid Laurier: I beg to
move :
That, as the time for receiving petitions for private Bills, and the time for presenting private Bills without additional charges, will be curtailed through the Christmas adjournment of the House, the said time as fixed by rule 88 and rule 89, subsections 3 (b) and (c), be extended to Wednesday, the 25th January, Wednesday, the 8th February, and Wednesday, the 8th March, respectively.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Robert Laird Borden: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are called, I would like to make a suggestion to the right hon. the Prime Minister with respect to the proceedings of the delegation which waited upon the government and upon parliament this morning. The occasion was rather a memorable one, not only on account of the very great number of delegates, but also on account of the force and earnestness with which they presented their views, as well as on account of the great ability with which those views were put forward. The occasion, I may say, was also a memorable one to myself, for another reason, that it was the only occasion since 1896 on Which I have seen the treasury benches occupied toy gentlemen in whom I had complete confidence. But the suggestion I desire to make is this. We do a good deal of printing in connection with the proceedings of parliament. Some of this printing does not really subserve any useful purpose afterwards, the documents being piled up and stacked away, and not put to very much use. But it would seem to me that the proceedings of this morning, the addresses that were made, the resolutions that were submitted to the government, and as I understand to parliament as well, and the reply of the right hon. the Prime Minister, might very well be printed, so that they would be available for the use of members, and also perhaps to some extent for distribution throughout the country, so far as they might be required by persons interested in the matters of public interest which were discussed by the delegation and toy the right hon. gentleman. I do not know whether the government made anv arrangement to

have the proceedings reported. I observed that there was one of the ' Hansard ' stenographers taking shorthand notes. 1 do not know whether that was for the government or not ; but, in any case, as practically all the addresses were in manuscript, there would be no difficulty at all about securing the necessary material for making a complete report. I would, therefore, urge as this delegation addressed itself not only to the government but to parliament, that the House should pass an order for the the printing or 20,000 or 25,000 copies of the proceedings, which would thus be available for the purpose to which I have already referred, and I earnestly hope that the government will act on my suggestion.


Wilfrid Laurier: The matter is well worth consideration, I shall look into it.



QUESTION.

Mr. MIDDLEBRO:: 1.	What amount of aid has been given or will be given to cold storage in Canada, and what are the names of persons assisted?
2.	How is the amount of assistance of 30 per cent arrived at?
3.	What rates are charged at Owen Sound?
4.	If the capacity of Lemon Bros.' cold storage plant at Owen Sound is insufficient to accommodate the trade, would any assistance be given to a further approved plant at said town ?


Mr. FISHER:: 1. Under contracts entered into under ' The Cold Storage Act,' up to date, aid has been given or will be given as follows:
Name.	Paid. To be Paid.
New Brunswick Cold Storage Co	$43,420.00	$ 6,680.00Lemon Bros	
4,400.00	1,600.00


The B.: Wilson Co.,	Ltd...	16,720.00	5,780.00Halifax Cold Storage	Co.	7,900.52	1,215.48
Woodstock Cold Storage
Co., Ltd	
6,650.02	1,023.08Scott & Hogg	
3,770.00	580.00
Palmerston Cold Storage
Co	
5,250.00	5,250.00J. D. Moore Co.,	Ltd..	..	5,402.94	5,402.94Davis & Fraser	
6,000.00	9,000.00
Chatham Fruit Growers'
Association	 4,500.00
The Canadian Fish and
Cold Storage Co	 60,000.00
Trenton Cooperage	Mills	 12,744.40
Maritime Cold Storage
Co	 18,000.00
The Dominion Fish and
Fruit Co	
17,250.00	20,250.00St. Lawrence Produce	Co	
15,600.00Scott, Ashton & Co	
18,000.00The Hamilton Cold Storage	
18,000.00

2 The contract which is entered into with applicants for cold storage subsidies fixes the maximum subsidy which may be paid, based on a reasonable estimate of cost, but the amount of the subsidy is finally determined by the actual cost, as shown by proper vouchers submitted when the warehouse is finished.
3. The following schedule was approved for the warehouse owned by Lemon Bros., at Owen Sound, Ontario.



PROPOSED RATES FOR COLD STORAGE.

[Stage Direction]
Apples, in bbls., 15 cents per bbl. per month, for season 40 cents.
Apples, in boxes, 10 cents per box per month, for season 20 cents.
Pears in baskets or boxes, 21 cents per basket per month, for season 6 cents.
Other fruits-
Grapes, 2-1 cents per basket per month, for season 6 cents.
Oranges, 10 cents per basket per month, for season 25 cents.
Lemons, 10 cents per basket per month, for season 25 cents.
Butter (unfrozen), J cent per lb. per month, J cent per lb. for season.
Butter (frozen), i cent per lb. per month, J cent per lb. for season.
Cheese, 6 cents per box per month, 15 cents for season.
Fresh meats (unfrozen), J cent per lb. per month, or 1 cent, per lb. for season.
Fresh meats (frozen), £ cent per lb. per month, or i cents per lb. for season.
Smoked meats, I cent per lb. per month, or 1 cent per lb. for season.
Lards, I cent per lb. per month, or J cent per lb. for season.
Poultry (unfrozen), \ cent per lb. per month, or J cent per lb. for season.
Poultry (frozen), % cent per lb. per month, or f cent per lb. for season.
Fish, J cent per lb. per month,
Game, 8 cents per lb. per month.
Eggs, 1 cent per doz. per month, or 60 cents per case for season.
Cabbage, bbl., or crates, 15 cents per month, or 40 cents for season.
Vegetables, hampers or boxes, 10 cents per month, or 20 cents for season.
Furs and woollen goods.
4. No. The regulations provide that a subsidy cannot be paid in a place where public cold storage already exists.

Mr. A. GILBERT (Drummond and Ar-thabaska).: (Translation.) Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are called, I wish to bring up a question of privilege, and to protest against an item more or less insulting to me, which appeared in ' Le Soleil ', of the 13th instant, and which is absolutely untrue. Here it is:


Robert Laird Borden: 



MR. ARTHUR GILBERT, MEMBER EOR DRUMMOND AND ARTHABASKA, RECEIVES A MESSAGE ADDRESSED TO MR. PHILEMON GILBERT AND RETURNS IT ONLY SEVERAL DAYS AFTERWARDS.


[Stage Direction]
Ottawa, 13th.-From the ' Soleil's 5 correspondent.-That poor Mr. Arthur Gilbert, the Conservative - Libera 1-Indepen dent-Nationalist-autonomist representative of Drummond and Arthabaska, is going from bad to worse. After that frigid welcome in the House, after his meaningless speech and his inconsistent voting, he now becomes the hero in a gruesome episode which nevertheless has its comical side.
Thursday last, a message was handed to the hon. member. It bore the signature of Mr. Poirier, and imparted the news of the decease of Mr. Gilbert's mother, the funeral to take place on the Saturday following. Mr. Gilbert was not slow in leaving Parliament House and reaching the railway station, and, greatly moved, proceeded to his home. He was surprised not to see any crape hanging at the door, and still more so to find his mother smiling and in good health. The member suspected some gruesome joke and resolved on finding out the author. Accordingly the message was resorted to once more, and to the surprise of all it was found to have been sent from a place in Beauce, to Mr. Philemon Gilbert, a messeneger in the House of Commons. Besides the sender, Mr. Poirier, is utterly unknown to the member. The iat-ter spent the rest of the week at home and it is only on his return, last night, that he returned the message to the compa ny, whence it was transmitted at once to Mr. Philemon Gilbert. The astonishment and grief of the unfortunate messenger on learning the sorrowful news of the deacease of his mother, two days after the funeral, may be readily perceived.
It is" expected that further developments will take place and that the member will be called upon to explain how he failed to catch the meaning of the message and why he retained it in his possession such a long time unmindful of the feelings of his namesake.
Mr. Speaker, I protest strongly against the falsehoods contained in this item. Here are the facts in regard to the piece of news which appeared in ' Le Soleil ' on December 13. On December 8t,h, at 11 p.m., I found in my room a telegram to my address. That telegram conveyed the news of my mother's decease. I was not taken by surprise at this sad news, seeing that my mother was seriously ill, and had been given up by her physicians. Of course I boarded th'e first train homeward bound. On reaching Montreal, a telegram inform-me that my mother was living. I then returned to the House of Commons the telegram which had been sent to me on Lau-rier avenue. It was not four days afterwards that I returned that message, but on December 9 at 2 p. m., realizing that there
might be some other person by the name of Gilbert in the House of Commons.
Now, I shall read to the House a letter received from the Great North-Western Telegraph Company, through which the' telegram was sent:
Ottawa, Ont., Dec. 15, 1910. Arthur Gilbert, Esq., M.P.,
House of Commons,
City.
Dear Sir,-In answer to your request to find out the date on which you returned the message from St. Joseph de Beauce, addressed to A. P. Gilbert, House of Commons, and which was delivered to you by error, I may say that our office in Montreal advised us at 2.30 p.m. on December 9, that you had returned the message to the company, giving as a reason that the message had not been delivered to the proper address.
Hoping that these explanations will be found satisfactory.
I remain, your truly,
CHARLES E. DAVIS, Mgr.
Such are, Mr. Speaker, the facts exactly as they occurred.
Now, I have always acted as a gentleman, and to my mind, it is a shame for our country that such newspapers should be published.

Mr. G. H. BARNARD (Victoria, B.C.).: Mr. Speaker, I wish to call the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to a news item which appears in the ' Victoria Daily Colonist ' of Saturday, December 10, relating to American fish poachers off the west coast of Vancouver island. The item reads in part:
POACHERS OFF WEST COAST. United States Fishing Vessels engage freely within Three Mile Limit off Vancouver Island without Molestation.
Use West Coast Ports as Depots.
Men from Poachers Land with Rifles, use Pitlamps after Nightfall to Hunt Deer-
.	Necessity of Fishery Protection.
American poachers are thick on the west coast; even proceeding up Kyuquot and other sounds after herring and landing hunters on shore who use pit lamps at night when after deer, according to arrivals by the steamer ' Tees.' The poachers ply unmolested and are seemingly in no fear of molestation; for there is no fishety protection off the island coast. For months it seems they have been in undisputed possession of the fishing grounds off the west coast of Vancouver Island, reaping a rich harvest, not only of halibut, but also of cod and herring. The poachers go freely within the three-mile limit. They make Kyuquot sound and Friendly cove their depots. Two or three of the poaching vessels may be seen at anchor in one of these ports from the steamer ' Tees ' on any trip.
On the trip of the ' Tees ' from which she has just returned the steamer proceeded to

Kyuquot. When rounding Raphael point, on her way out of Clayoquot sound, last Monday morning officers and passengers were surprised to see a string of lights extending from Raphael point to Estevan. They resembled the street lights of a city. In the darkness Capt. Gillam made out eight poaching vessels lying well inside on the shoreward side -of his course toward Estevan point.
I do not propose to read the whole article but I wish to quote a few more words:
The poaching vessels do not seem to have any fear of the ' Kestrel.' They seem to be well informed of her movements. At rare intervals the fishery protection steamer visits the west coast and may be seen steaming on a calm day, floating her blue ensign. The west coast settler knows, however, that the poachers wait outside the three-mile limit until her cruise is over, knowing it will be some months before she is seen again off the Vancouver Island coast. The settler on the island coast is chagrined to see how impudently the poachers work, looting the Canadian fishing grounds.
I wish to call the attention of the minister to that and also to the fact that in his report for the last year he states that the fisheries on Hecate Straits have been practically fished out and from previous reports I may say that if they have been fished out there is no question that it has been fished by American poachers. I submit that if the department were aware in 1909-10 that for the first time our fishermen were working along the west coast of Vancouver Island, it was time the protection service should protect that coast and go there more frequently than once in two or three months. We have on that coast five or six fishery protection vessels. If they cannot take care of the west coast of Vancouver Island, particularly when the minister's deputy knew that that coast was being exploited, I say there is something wrong with the Fisheries Department and I trust the minister will take the matter into his consideration, and give the needed instructions in order that it may be attended to.



FISH POACHERS IN LAKE SUPERIOR.

Mr. G. H. BRADBURY (Selkirk).: Mr. Speaker, I desire to call attention to. an item which appears in the Ottawa ' Free Press ' of December 13, very similar to the one which has just been complained of. The item reads:



SLIPPERY POACHERS GOT AWAY WHEN OFFICIALS WERE SOUNDLY SLEEPING.

[Stage Direction]
They had been Trapped, had Surrendered and then got away.
An interesting story of poaching in Canadian waters by United States fishermen with a dramatic sequel has reached the Fisheries Department from Inspector Duncan, of Sault Ste. Marie.
Mr. BARNARD
He reports that on November 16, after the patrol boat ' Kathleen ' had been laid up for the winter, he received information that two American launches were fishing around Parisian island, on the Canadian side of Whitefish bay.
Fight with Rifles.
He notified the fishery officer of the Ontario government, who hired a tug, and after facing a heavy sea the two finally reached the island. They found that one of the launches had managed to get a tip and had escaped to the United States waters, but the other was still on the Canadian side, and there ensued a lively fight with rifles, which resulted in the Americans beaching their launch and escaping into the bush on the island.
The officers waited around a day and a night after taking possession of the launch, which they floated and lashed to their tug. Then, not wishing to leave the two poachers to stay on the island all winter, they left a note ashore stating that if they would surrender they would be given convoy to the mainland.
Let them sleep.
A few hours later the fugitives gave themselves up and were given a place to sleep in the bow of the boat. Then came the sequel.
In the dead of night they made their way to the stern of the tug, skipped aboard their launch, cut it adrift, and when dawn came there was the tug, but the launch and poachers were non est. Presumably thev made their way to home waters without difficulty.
If our protective service is _ of_ as little effect as this would indicate it is a very serious matter. We have complained, time after time, about the manner in which the Americans have invaded our waters. In a case of this kind, where they have been taken red-handed, I think the Minister of Marine and Fisheries might well investigate to find out what the officers were doing that they allowed the men to escape in this manner.
Mr. BRODEUR.: The facts referred to by the hon. members (Mr. Barnard and Mr. Bradbury) had not been brought to my attention. " But I will not fail to inquire into the matter. And, if there has been negligence, I will see to it that those who were guilty shall be reprimanded. As to the question of fishing in Hecate strait raised by my hon. friend, (Mr. Barnard) it will be rather difficult, in the present state of this question, to prevent fishing on the part of the Americans in these waters. They claim that these waters are open seas and no decision has been rendered yet as to whether they should be considered Canadian waters or open sea.


Mr. MIDDLEBRO.: Within the three mile limit?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Outside, of course.



INQUIRY FOR RETURNS.

Mr. EDWARDS.: Last session I asked for some information regarding the number of

drill halls and armouries in Canada and the cost of construction. The question involved quite a voluminous answer, and to that answer I wish to direct the attention of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Pugsley). If he will look at it, he will see that it does not give in full the information I asked for. I hope he will direct his officials to prepare further information durine- the Christmas recess, for the facts in this matter are of interest to hon. members on both sides of *the House. I beg, also, to direct the attention of the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) to an answer which he gave in the absence of the Postmaster General (Mr. Lemieux) regarding the tenders for mail contract for Westbrook post office. I think the omission in the answer is made inadvertently. I asked for the names of persons from whom tenders were received and the amount of their tenders. In the answer I am only given information as to the successful tenderer. I would like the full information for which I asked.


Wilfrid Laurier: At what page of ' Hansard '?


William Cameron Edwards: At page 1131 of unrevised ' Hansard.'


Mr. PUGSLEY.: I will look into the matter which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Edwards) mentioned first.



SUPPLY-THE CANADIAN NAVY.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. PATERSON moved that the House [DOT]go into Committee of Supply.
['General enjoyment.']
Mr. GLEN CAMPBELL (Dauphin).: Before you leave the Chair, Mr. Speaker, there is a matter I would like to bring to the attention of the House and the government. I refer to an item which appears in the Ottawa ' Free Press ' of December 1. The heading of the article is: 'Will Knock Out Home Rule if Tory Campaign Wins.' The part of this article to which I direct the special attention of the House begins: * Revolution in Ireland. Funds are being collected to buy arms.'
Now, Sir, if there is going to be a revolution in Ireland for any cause whatever, I regard it as a matter of very great importance.


Wilfrid Laurier: Order.


Mr. SPEAKER.: The motion is for Committee of Supply.


Glenlyon Campbell: I think I am in order, Mr. Speaker. If there is going to be a revolution in- Ireland I think that justifies us in Canada in believing that there must be some sort of crisis, some emergency which must be met. Now, the question arose in my mind how best we could meet an emergency of this kind. And it naturally occurred to me, after what has been going on for the past month in this House, that the
best way to meet it would be to call out our navy. And I am going to make one or two suggestions to the Prime Minister and his cabinet in that regard, if I may do so. My suggestion is to call out the navy. I see that we spent some $75,000 or $100,000 in wireless telegraphy. I would bring the ' Rainbow ' over to the Atlantic coast. I would line up our navy in St. John harbour-I think that is, perhaps, the best place, because, I understand, a certain George McAvity, who obtained some little consideration from the government for the making of that harbour, wishes to give the boys a send-off. I would line them up in the harbour, and after George McAvity's send-off I would start them off with the ' Montcalm ' ahead, bearing the admiral's flag, and with our friend the Minister of Marine (Mr. Brodeur) on board.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Carried.


Glenlyon Campbell: I said the 'Montcalm ' carry the flag. I do not know what else is ' carried ' so far. If my hon. friend from Yukon (Mr. Congdon) and other hon, members over there think to carry me off my feet they are much mistaken. I have heard of the scout boat ' Minnie M,,' which has proved very useful to the Liberal party in some parts of this Dominion.


Mr. BLAIN.: She has gone out of service.


Glenlyon Campbell: I would bring her back to service. We have her in a class by herself-she is a vote-destroyer, which is a little different from other destroyers. At the wheel of the ' Minnie M.' I would have Capt. Sullivan, and as supercargo I would have our hon. friend the member for Thunder Bay and Rainy River (Mr. Conmee), who is supposed to be a pasrmaster in specials and specialties for campaign purposes. Next to the ' Minnie M.' I would line up the ' Niobe ' and the ' Rainbow,' loaded down with horse marines equipped with Ross rifles of the newest pattern and furnished with emergency rations. I would have on board one of these vessels the Minister of Militia (Sir Frederick Borden), and I would give him his choice whether he would rather be on the ' Niobe ' or on the ' Rainbow.' And, on the sister ship I would have as a stowaway the Solicitor General (Mr. Bureau). I would take him with the fleet for the purpose of making settlement of campaign claims. That is something that is not novel to him, as I understand he was lately employed in that particular service on the government side in the Drummond and Arthabaska election.
On one of the vessels I would have the minister-I was going to say from Victoria, I mean the hon. Minister of Mines (Mr. Templeman), as captain of the watch, for he is known for his sleeplessness and vigilance. As a rear guard, I would have the

' Arctic ' outfitted precisely in the same way as it was for the northern expedition among the Esquimaux-not forgetting the ladies' hats. On it I would have in charge our friend the ex-Minister of Agriculture who, as Minister of Agriculture, expends of the people's money $700,000, and is willing to get up and vote for a useless navy, three or four millions per year. On reaching the scene of action I would turn the rear admiral loose on the insurgents and have him tell them in his own way just what he has not done for Canada, while he has been Minister of Agriculture. But I think if he goes into that fully, as only he can do, the revolution will be over, because he will either talk the insurgents to death, or the few who will be left alive will seek safety in flight. If he does this, as I said, he alone can do, I am sure on this side of the House we will forgive him for the many weary hours we have had to sit and listen to him talking. Now I do not think there is anything to prevent this action on the part of the government. All that is necessary, according to the Naval Bill, is to pass an order in council, have a meeting of the cabinet, call out the navy, and parliament being in session, and judging by the way that all motions made by the government have passed this House, parliament will certainly give its consent. I want to point out to you that if this action is taken, it will do a great deal of good, because it will show the people of Canada that this navy, so-called, is not the useless, costly, tin-pot affair that we on this side assert; and it will further show that the loyalty preached by the First Minister and by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and others behind them, is not the buncomb that we on this side are prone to suspect. I have ventured in a humble way to point out this necessity to the First Minister, and I would ask him to take cognizance of it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Civil Government-Department of Marine and Fisheries, $207,600; salaries, $36,000.
["I would bring her back to service. We have her in a class by herself-she is a vote-destroyer, which is a little different from other destroyers. At the wheel of the ' Minnie M.' I would have Capt. Sullivan, and as supercargo I would have our hon. friend the member for Thunder Bay and Rainy River (Mr. Conmee), who is supposed to be a pasrmaster in specials and specialties for campaign purposes. Next to the ' Minnie M.' I would line up the ' Niobe ' and the ' Rainbow,' loaded down with horse marines equipped with Ross rifles of the newest pattern and furnished with emergency rations. I would have on board one of these vessels the Minister of Militia (Sir Frederick Borden), and I would give him his choice whether he would rather be on the ' Niobe ' or on the ' Rainbow.' And, on the sister ship I would have as a stowaway the Solicitor General (Mr. Bureau). I would take him with the fleet for the purpose of making settlement of campaign claims. That is something that is not novel to him, as I understand he was lately employed in that particular service on the government side in the Drummond and Arthabaska election.\nOn one of the vessels I would have the minister-I was going to say from Victoria, I mean the hon. Minister of Mines (Mr. Templeman), as captain of the watch, for he is known for his sleeplessness and vigilance. As a rear guard, I would have the", "' Arctic ' outfitted precisely in the same way as it was for the northern expedition among the Esquimaux-not forgetting the ladies' hats. On it I would have in charge our friend the ex-Minister of Agriculture who, as Minister of Agriculture, expends of the people's money $700,000, and is willing to get up and vote for a useless navy, three or four millions per year. On reaching the scene of action I would turn the rear admiral loose on the insurgents and have him tell them in his own way just what he has not done for Canada, while he has been Minister of Agriculture. But I think if he goes into that fully, as only he can do, the revolution will be over, because he will either talk the insurgents to death, or the few who will be left alive will seek safety in flight. If he does this, as I said, he alone can do, I am sure on this side of the House we will forgive him for the many weary hours we have had to sit and listen to him talking. Now I do not think there is anything to prevent this action on the part of the government. All that is necessary, according to the Naval Bill, is to pass an order in council, have a meeting of the cabinet, call out the navy, and parliament being in session, and judging by the way that all motions made by the government have passed this House, parliament will certainly give its consent. I want to point out to you that if this action is taken, it will do a great deal of good, because it will show the people of Canada that this navy, so-called, is not the useless, costly, tin-pot affair that we on this side assert; and it will further show that the loyalty preached by the First Minister and by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and others behind them, is not the buncomb that we on this side are prone to suspect. I have ventured in a humble way to point out this necessity to the First Minister, and I would ask him to take cognizance of it."]
Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The details of this vote will be found on page 21 of the estimates. There it is stated that there were last year 182 members employed in the department. The number this year is 152. I will give the reasons for the reduction. Of the former number, 36 have been transferred from the department to the Naval Service. Officers who were employed on the hydrographic survey and the wireless telegraph system have been transferred to the Naval Service. Six other have been also transferred from the Department of Marine and Fisheries to the Naval Service, but they were not attached to those services which Mr. CAMPBELL.
I have just mentioned. They have been replaced in the department by six new officers. Amongst these new officers we are going to provide for an assistant to Mr. Adams, the inspector of boilers and machinery. Mr. Adams is a very efficient officer who has been in the service for many years. He has been asking for some time that we should provide him with an assistant, and I think his request should be granted. We also require in the Fisheries Branch a new officer who will look specially after the commercial side of the fisheries, and to help generally in the administration of that branch. This branch of the service has been increasing largely in late years, and we find it necessary to appoint new men. Mr. Venning, who is superintendent of fisheries, has been unwell for some time, and a great deal of his work devolves upon his assistant, Mr. Found, and it is found advisable to appoint a new man.


Mr. TAYLOE (Leeds).: How many men altogether are there in the Naval Department?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Sixty-five.


George Taylor: What service will they perform when the navy is once started?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Well, the organization of the service generally. Then it includes the officers who were in charge of the tydrographic survey, and the wireless telegraph system.


Mr. FOSTEE.: What number of the 175 men are to be included in the Naval Department? As I understand it, these 175 employees include all those that are to be set apart for the new naval service.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: My hon. friend is mistaken. At page 21 he will find that there are now 152 men employed in the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and on the' next page he will find that 65 are employed in the Naval Service.


George Eulas Foster: I mean how many of the 175 are set apart for the Naval Service.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There are more than thak^217. I think my hon. friend must have the wrong Ip age.


George Eulas Foster: I am a year behind; I have the estimates of last year.


George Taylor: Who is the deputy Minister of Marine?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Mr. Johnston.


George Taylor: And Mr. Des-barats has been transferred from the Marine Department to the Naval Department?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: To the Naval Service Department.


George Eulas Foster: Last year the Department of Marine and Fisheries provided for 175 clerks under civil government. This year the minister is asking for 287 under civil government. That is 112 more than last year. I would like the minister to make an explanation which will give us to understand where this overplus from 175 to 287 came from, and how many of these are put into the Naval Department. Another thing; I think the minister ought to take into consideration, first, that he ought not to cover up under the simple cognomen of the Department of Marine and Fisheries all the services which have to be debited to an entirely new organization, the expenses of which, we are very much concerned, shall be definite, clear and easily understood. There is no use to get the House and the country committed to expenditures for what is a new and distinct service under the head of an old department and simply denominate it * Marine and Fisheries/ I _ think the country has a right to see just exactly what the new service is to cost at the head, in the body and all the way through. The minister has not been definite enough. He might have put it in one place where it can be seen so that we will know just exactly what the cost of the new service will be.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The figures which are given on pages 21 and 22 convey that information. I do not know whether my hon. friend is referring to page 22, but it gives the expenditure connected with the naval service.


George Eulas Foster: There are three pages within that

	.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, two pages, 21-22.


George Eulas Foster: Yes, I have it now.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I think my hon. friend was mistaken.


George Eulas Foster: Yes, I was; I was looking at the wrong column. Under Marine and Fisheries then, last year the minister had 182.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: And this year on this page he estimates for 152.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: None of the 152 then, as I understand it, includes any that are doing work for the new naval service?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


George Eulas Foster: Page 22 gives all that are included in the naval service?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: That follows out the suggestion I made.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I suppose that is what the hon. gentleman wants?


George Eulas Foster: That is what I want.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The two classes are absolutely separate.


George Eulas Foster: Now, then, with reference to the 65, I see that 29 were supposed to be in that same service last year 1910-11.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Practically we had no naval service last year. Does this include merely the fleet service?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Are we discussing the naval service?


George Eulas Foster: The naval service.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The Department of Marine and Fisheries, I suppose, is all right.


George Eulas Foster: What has become of the difference between 182 and 152?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There are 36 of these 182 who have been transferred from the Department of Marine and Fisheries to the Department of the Naval Service. The officers and clerks transferred were attached to the divisions as follows:-
1	in First Division, subdivision A.
2	in First Division, subdivision B.
3	in Second Division, subdivision A.
20 in Second Division, subdivision B.
8 in Third Division, subdivision B.
2 messengers.


George Eulas Foster: Were they transferred at the same salaries?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: And in the same divisions?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: In the same divisions as they were before except that now they are going to have their statutory increases. The law authorized that the transfers were to be made at the same salaries and in the same classes in which they were in the Department of Marine and Fisheries. These officers who have been transferred are mostly connected with the hydrographic survey. The hydrographic survey was in the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and in virtue of the law passed last session it was decided that the hydrographic survey should in future be connected with the Department of Naval Service. Outside of this service is the wireless telegraph organization, the officers of which also have been transferred from the Department of Marine and Fisheries to the Department of Naval Service. There was also the tidal survey

1466'
and the fisheries protection service, which were transferred. The officers who have been transferred in that way, in virtue of the law passed last year, numbered 36, but outside of them there were some others who were not connected with those services.


George Eulas Foster: You have 65 now and you only transferred 36.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Then there are 29 to be accounted for.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: 29 who were in the department last year and 36 who have been added.


Mr. HAGGART (Lanark).: Are the 36 in addition to the 65?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, they are included in the 65.


John Graham Haggart: Well, the statement is made here that in addition to the 65 there are 36.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, mv hon. friend will see that last year there were 29 in the department, and we have transferred 36, which makes 65.


George Eulas Foster: In the Department of Naval Service, then, you have four distinct services. Thirty-six were provided for before in the Department of Marine and Fisheries and you have 29 in the naval service. Now, of these 29 how many are new men? Are . they all new men?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They are all new men.


George Eulas Foster: In order to keep up clear this year and next year so that we will have a basis for computation at any time without any dispute, I want the minister to give out of that second list the names of the officers and their positions respectively for the tidal, the wireless, the hydrographic and the naval services.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The following is the list :



[Stage Direction]
W. J. Stewart, 1st Div., subdiv. A, sal	$3,350
1*. Anderson, 1st Div., subdiv. B, salary. 2,550 C. McGreevy, 2nd Div., subdiv. A, salary	[DOT]	 2,050
A. J. Pinet, 2nd Div., subdiv. A, salary. 1,900 H. Melanyon, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary	 1,600
F.	Delaute, 2nd Div, subdiv. B, salary.. 1,600 A. Becliand, 2nd Div. subdiv. M, salary. 1,550 C. Savary. 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary.. 1,450
G.	St. Pierre, 2nd Div, subdiv. B, salary. 1,450
P. Jobin, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary.. 1,450 G. C. Venn, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary. 1,400 G. L. Crichton, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary	 900
O. Souhbre, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary. 1,400 Mr. BRODEUR.
H.	Ortis, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary.. $1,300
E.	Jodoin, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary.. 1,250 Vacancy, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary....
E.	A. Ghysens, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary	 950
Vacancy, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary....
.1. R. Dupuis, 3rd Div., subdiv. B, salary	 80b
T. L. Kileen, 3rd Div., subdiv. B, salary. 550 A. Carbonneau, messenger, salary.. ..	800

[Stage Direction]
C. P. Edwards, 2nd Div., subdiv. A, salary	 $1,800

[Stage Direction]
W. B. Dawson, 1st Div., subdiv. B, salary	 $2,800
S.	C. Hayden, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary	 1,500
H. W. Jones, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary. 1,450 P. M. H. Leblanc, 2nd Div., subdiv. B,
salary	 1,150

[Stage Direction]
F.	E. Cox, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary... $850
V.	W. Johnston, 3rd Div., subdiv. B, salary	
750M.	C. Lyon, 3rd Div., subdiv. B, salary.. 500 E. G. Whyte, 3rd Div., subdiv. B, salary. 500 E. Bohemier, messenger, salary	
500

[Stage Direction]
W.	J. Quinn, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary. $1,450 R. Frechette, 2nd Div., subdiv. B, salary. 1,450

[Stage Direction]
H. G. Grignon, 3rd Div., subdiv. B, salary	$800
Oscar Vezina, 3rd Div., subdiv. B, salary. 800 M. E. Delaney, 3rd Div., subdiv. B, salary	 800
George Eulas Foster: Who are the mew officials and what are their salaries?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They are :
L.	J. Beausoleil appointed by order in council of the 26th September, 1910, dating from 14th July, 1910. Chief accountant, salary, $2,100.
H. F. Williams appointed by 'order in council of the 14th October, 1910, dating from the 1st October, 1910. Assistant stores officer, salary, $1,600.
J. W. Wilson appointed toy the Civil Service	Commission	on	the 18th	July,
1910. Assistant director of stores, salary, $1,600.
G.	J. Guimond appointed by the Civil Service Commission 25th July, 1910. Correspondence clerk, $800.
M.	S. Robertson appointed by the Civil
Service	Commission	19th	August,	1910
Salary, $500.
E.	White appointed by the Civil Service
Commission 17th October,	1910. Salary,

V. B. Hervey appointed by the Civil Service	Commission	17th	October,	1910
Salary, $500.
F.	X. Talbot appointed by order in council dated from the 10th November, 1910, assistant accountant. Salary, $1,600.


George Eulas Foster: Are these all Canadians?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: Has the minister got the reasons reported to council for the organization of this branch?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The department informs me that it made a special recommendation in one case and that the others have been appointed under the Civil Service Commission.


John Graham Haggart: There must be an order in council setting forth the reasons for the theoretical organization of this department.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There has been the classification of the officers of the department by order in council and that has been made on the recommendation of the department.


John Graham Haggart: Will you have that brought down?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I have a copy here.


George Eulas Foster: These seven clerks represent all that the minister now has in connection with the naval service-two accountants, two storemen, one correspondence clerk and two stenographers?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Yes, and the deputy minister.


George Eulas Foster: The deputy minister is for all the services that are aggregated there. What stores are there now that these two men have charge of?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: They have to look after the purchases which have to be made in the department, such as clothing, and advise the department as to the best way of purchasing.


George Eulas Foster: What is the clothing for?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The seamen.


George Eulas Foster: How long have these storemen been in office?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: One was appointed on October 14, 1910, and the other on July 18, 1910.


George Eulas Foster: Up to the present time these two men do not appear to have had much to do beyond drawing their salaries.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: The other day they had to examine as many as 250 tenders for clothing and for supplies for the two ships.


George Eulas Foster: The two accountants have been in office how long?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: One was appointed on July 14 and the other on November 10.


George Eulas Foster: Where does the admiral's salary come in?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: He is (paid out of the vote of $3,000,000, like all the staff officers. The same thing is done in the Militia Department.


George Eulas Foster: Are any of the clerks paid out of that general vote?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No.


George Eulas Foster: I want to ask the minister to consider, in making up the estimate for the Naval Department, the advisability of dividing it into these five parts, so that we shall be able to see just what part of the expense goes to tidal observations, what part t* the wireless telegraphy, what part to the fisheries protection service, what part to the hydrographic survey and what (part to the naval service.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: That is done in the main estimates, and it can be done for the civil service in the same way, if the House desires it.


George Taylor: When was the deputy Minister of Marine appointed?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I think it was in April or May last.


George Taylor: What special qualifications had he for the appointment? Had he been in the service?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: No, but he had been a member of parliament, and was a very good member of parliament; and I suppose that a man who passes several years in parliament is well qualified to take charge of any department.


George Taylor: I do not know that it is a necessary qualification, according to the Civil Service Act, in a gentleman who is pulled in from the outside and put over the heads of gentlemen who have been in the service for many years. What special qualification had he?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: I do not think it is required by the Civil Service Act that a deputy minister should be appointed from the public service. They have always been taken from outside the service, except in a very few exceptional cases. Mr. Johnston is a very capable man, with a great knowledge of fisheries, and he lived in a part of the country where he had a great deal to do with marine affairs.


George Taylor: Then, you must have had two deputy ministers from April to July. You appointed a second deputy before you organized the second department.


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Both were appointed by order in council at the same time-Mr. Desbarats for the Naval Department and Mr. Johnston for the Marine Department.


George Taylor: What were Mr. Desbarats' duties from April or May to July?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: For some time after the law was passed Mr. Desbarats administered both departments; but when Mr. Johnston was appointed Mr. Desbarats was transferred to the Department of the Naval Service.


George Taylor: What work was there to do in connection with the naval service before these steamships which we purchased arrived in this country?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: There was a great deal tc do. We had first to ^provide for the organization of the department; then we had to look after the organization of the ships themselves on the other side. In that connection Lord Strathcona rendered a great deal of service, but we had to give instructions from the department, and Mr. Desbarats attended to that from the day the law came into force.


George Eulas Foster: The minister knows the importance of the deputy ministership of a department like that of Marine and Fisheries. The bulk of the work of marine and fisheries remains with the Department of Marine and Fisheries and is under the care of the deputy minister The minister knows that that is a most important service, that it comprises a multiplicity of services, every one of which is very important in its way. Did the min-, ister make his selection of a deputy by looking over the field and getting the very best man that could be got in experience, technical ability and the like of that? Was it simply the good of the service that the minister had in view when he appointed the present deputy?


Louis-Philippe Brodeur: Certainly. I had been looking around to find the man best suited for the position. Mr. Johnston, as I explained a few minutes ago, had been connected with the public service of Canada as a member of parliament for many years. He had shown when he was a member of parliament a great deal of industry, he was a man of great ability. As I explained there are in the Department of Marine and Fisheries two special branches. The Marine branch and the Fisheries Branch. Mr. Johnston came from the province of Nova Scotia, and was in close touch with the question of fisheries. Since he has been in the department I have found his advice most valuable upon the question of fisheries, and I am sure he will prove one of the best deputy ministers who has ever been in charge of that department. He came from a part of the country which was largely interested in marine affairs and in that respect also he has already proved to me Mr. BRODEUR.
that he is a far better qualified man than I thought he would be. I must state to the House frankly that although I fully recognized at the time that Mr. Johnston would be an able man I never suspected that he would be as able as I find he is. I am glad to bear that testimony to him before parliament.
My hon. friend refers to the fact that he had no technical knowledge. He certainly is not an engineer, but when a man has been a newspaper man, has been for many years studying public questions in the discharge of his duty as a newspaper man, I think that he becomes more competent to administer any department as deputy minister. That is one of the reasons which induced me to make the selection of Mr, Johnston, and I can assure the House from the experience I have had of him so far that he is going to prove one of the best deputy ministers that the Department of Marine and Fisheries ever had.


Mr. SPROULE.: He certainly was a very useful man here in some respects, and if these qualifications which he possessed and displayed here will be of value in the department he ought to be a very valuable man. He was a splendid man in the Public Accounts Committee in preventing the finding out of anything, or ascertaining how money was spent. He was usually tne handy man in this House for the government whenever they wanted to put up a man to do something or to kill time. That is another qualification, and the third and most important qualification is that he was a defeated candidate whom the people had rejected because they did not think he was fit to represent them-and that makes him more valuable for the department.
Department of Secretary of State-salaries, $58,450; contingencies, $9,000.


Hon. CHARLES MURPHY.: There is no increase in the number of employees or in the amount asked from parliament; in fact there is a decrease in the amount of $112.50 brought about by certain changes in the staff, one death, a transfer and a promotion, the successors to these parties being appointed at smaller salaries.
Department of External Affairs-salaries, $15,875; contingencies, $5,000.


Charles Murphy: There is a net increase of $87.50, and a decrease of one in the number of employees. There is a typographical error by which a salary is stated at $2,300, instead of $2,400, but that does not affect the total of $4,500, in the third item.


George Eulas Foster: What generally has been the work done by this department during the year?


Charles Murphy: The work is set out very fully in the annual report. It is the gen-[DOT]erai work which was outlined when the Bill creating the department was before the House.


Mr.   POSTER@: Are all the positions in that department filled?


Charles Murphy: Yes.


George Eulas Foster: Are there any vacancies?


Charles Murphy: No, the work has increased so that the staff had to be filled up.
Department of Railways and Canals-salaries, $139,652.50; contingencies, $15,000.


Mr. GRAHAM.: There is an increase of three in the entire staff, made up, I think, in the lower class. The deputy minister of last year was paid $8,000. That amount is now $5,000. The other increases are statutory increases. We have arranged to promote four or five clerks from Subdivision B to Subdivision A. These are the only changes made in the department.


George Eulas Foster: In the second division, you have two fewer clerks than last year.


George Perry Graham: Yes, one in canal statistics, and one in the deputy minister's office. Both of these are dropped.


George Eulas Foster: Are the positions vacant?


George Perry Graham: One was superannuated, and the other clerkship was dropped.


George Eulas Foster: Then, in 2 B you have two more.


George Perry Graham: That is our engineering division. We have not been able to fill one or two of these positions. We are trying to get suitable men. Provision is made for the salaries.


George Eulas Foster: How many vacancies there?


George Perry Graham: Four. A little rearrangement is caused by the fact that, whereas my former deputy was deputy minister and chief engineer, in appointing a new deputy, though I selected an engineer, I did not make the deputy minister chief engineer of the department. The chief engineer is a separate office.


George Eulas Foster: In 3 A you have five more than last year?


George Perry Graham: I am dropping three from the next division. I have provided for promotions, and the promotions will be through the Civil Service Commission. They are not new appointments, but promotions from the class below.


George Eulas Foster: That accounts for three.


George Perry Graham: There are two vacancies. I am dropping three in the class below and leaving two vacancies.


George Eulas Foster: Apparently, you are dropping four in the class below.


George Perry Graham: Yes, and leaving three vacancies in 3 B.


George Eulas Foster: Tire minister seems to have made provision for a great many officers that he is not using. There are four vacancies in 2 B, two in 3 A, and three- is it not?-in the next division.'


George Perry Graham: The reason there would be vacancies in two of these is that I am making promotions, and when these are promoted I am dropping some, leaving three vacancies to be filled after the promotions are made. They will not be left vacant very long, but in the estimates we have to show them vacant.


George Eulas Foster: An increase of three altogether?


George Perry Graham: Yes.
Department of Agriculture-
Salaries	$378,787.50
Contingencies	 16,000.00


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).: With the exception of two increases in 2 A, and two in 3 B, these are statutory increases. The two in 2 A are due to the promotion of patent examiners. When the new patent examiners come in, we put them in 2 B, and after having tested and proved them they are promoted to 2 A. The increase in 3 B is due to the necessity of extraordinary clerks.


George Eulas Foster: Are these offices filled?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, that will not be until next year.


George Eulas Foster: The minister has a lot of messengers.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is largely due to the fact that my department is more or less scattered. I have to have a messenger at the Archives, and two in the Canadian building where a number of branches of my department are, besides those in the main portion of the department.


George Eulas Foster: Have any of these officers anything to do with the census?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The permanent officers of the Census and Statistics Branch are in this list.


George Eulas Foster: Who is the director of the Census?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Mr. Blue.


George Eulas Foster: It might be well to inquire now whether the minister proposes, in the selection of officers for taking the census, to apply the principle of the Civil Service Act?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Not only apply the principle, but the Act was amended last year



to require that all the appointees in the Ottawa offices for the work of the census shall be appointed under the Act.


George Eulas Foster: Does that include


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It includes all the officers in Ottawa, but not the enumerators throughout the country.


George Eulas Foster: That is what I want to know: Does the minister intend to extend the principle of the Civil Service Act to the selection of the officers outside of Ottawa?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No.


George Eulas Foster: Does not the minister think that this would be a good opportunity to put into practice the principle of a good Act?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It would be quite impossible, I think. The commissioners for the counties and the enumerators are only appointed for two or three weeks.


George Eulas Foster: About a month, is it not?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Hardly a month. I hope that the enumeration will be finished in less than three weeks.


George Eulas Foster: There will be a vote for that to be considered later on?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Mr. CURRIE (Simcoe).: I call your attention to the fact, Mr. Chairman, that there is no quorum.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: I think there is a quorum.


George Taylor: If the chairman says there is a quorum-how many are required?


Gilbert Howard McIntyre: Twenty, including the Chair.


George Taylor: I make it seventeen including the chairman.


Gilbert Howard McIntyre: If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Currie, Simcoe) renews his point I will count again.


Morley Currie: I do.


Gilbert Howard McIntyre: Having counted, I find there are twenty-one members present, including the chairman.


Richard Blain: How will the enumerators for the census be appointed?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: They will be appointed by the minister. They do not come under this vote. There will be full opportunity for a discussion of that subject on the census vote.
Department of Mines-salaries, $213,189.


Mr. TEMPLBMAN.: There is a proposed increase of 21 officials for next year in the Mr. FISHER.	I
Department of Mines. The deputy minister at present is Mr. Low', who unfortunately for several years has been an invalid. His work is being attended to by the Director of the Geological Survey wrho is Acting Deputy Minister. There is an increase in the Geological Survey branch, and there is an increase in consequence of the occupation at a very early date of the new Geological Museum. The Mines Department has not been in recent years expanding as rapidly as w'e would wish, owing to the inadequacy of the old building. The total increase in the vote is about $27,000. The increase is owing to the appointment of a number of technical officers, and also to the statutory increases of the present officers. The increase in the Mines Department is owing to the fact that the staff in recent years has been altogether inadequate, and we have been unable to meet the demands upon it. We have been hesitating in making appointments during the last year, because of the inadequate accommodation we have had in our old building. We are now being provided with better quarters, and we desire to bring the staff up to its proper number to meet the requirements. Appointments are all made under the Civil Service Act.


Richard Blain: How many have been appointed during the last year?


William Templeman: Very few.


Richard Blain: Were there any promotions?


William Templeman: We are providing in this estimate for a number of statutory increases. There were very few additions to the staff in either of the branches last year. We have appointed one or two geologists.


George Eulas Foster: What are the officers in the First Division of Subdivision B in the Mines branch, engaged in doing, -where there are five officials?


William Templeman: Mr. Wait is the chief of the chemical division ; Mr. B. Haanel is a mining engineer who has charge of the testing laboratory ; Mr. Frechette is a mining engineer whose business it is to determine the area and size of the iron ore deposits. Dr. Wilson is in charge of the metallurgical branch. Mr McLeish is chief of division of mineral resources and statistics. Mr. Lindman is also a mining engineer, working principally on iron ore deposits.


George Eulas Foster: Are these men engaged all the time at Ottawa?


William Templeman: No, in the summer they go out and make surveys. Mr. Lindman has been making surveys in the vicinity of Ottawa and in the maritime provinces. He was sent down to Nova Scotia

to determine, as far as he could, the extent and area of the large iron ore-bearing districts. Mr. Wait, who is a chemist, and Mr. McLeish, the statistician, are permanently loqcupied at Ottawa. The other mining engineers are sent out.


George Eulas Foster: What is the chemist doing all the year round?


William Templeman: I presume he is analysing ores of all kinds, his business is to make analysis of all ores. The mining engineer must have his ores analysed. The work in that branch as well as the work in the Geological Survey consists entirely in the analysis of ores, minerals and rocks.


George Eulas Foster: Specimens of which are sent in by the general public?


William Templeman: Yes, and by the Geological Survey staff who are out in the country. The samples which they'bring in are analysed by the chemist, to determine the quality and character of the formations where they have been found. It is absolutely necessary to the work of the department.


George Eulas Foster: Is a person outside at liberty to send in any specimen of ore and have it analysed?


William Templeman: Yes, in the mines branch.


George Eulas Foster: He can demand that, can he?


William Templeman: Well, no, there is a charge. I told Dr. Haanel about a year ago to make that charge a little more than private assayers would charge for the work. We do not want to compete with private assayers, but notwithstanding that there are a great many peetple who want a government assay and we do that work for them.


George Eulas Foster: Of course, a government assay is very valuable.


William Templeman: Yes. I think we have in both branches excellent chemists who do very good work.


George Eulas Foster: Then the public outside is charged for the chemists' work on their ores?


William Templeman: Yes.


Mr. HENDERSON.: Not only charged but charged more than private assayers charge. I hardly think that is fair. The general public prefer a government assay.


George Eulas Foster: It is worth more to them.


David Henderson: It is worth more to them. I think this is one of the things in which governments should help the people instead of simply trying to get 47i
money out of them. Tariff for revenue only should not be the policy on every line.


William Templeman: The charge is very little more, but the reason is that we have in Montreal and Toronto and in other large cities private assayers who are making their living by assaying samples of ore. The government is not especially anxious to emtploy the assay office in competition with these men. We have an assay office for the benefit of the work of the department, but in doing that we find) that there are a great many applications for government assays. These assays are, I believe, preferred by mining men and others; at all events, they have more confidence in government assays; so that we do assaying for any person who has samples.


Richard Blain: What was the revenue last year?


William Templeman: I do not^know, but I do not think it was very much.


Richard Blain: I sulppose the hon. gentleman would have the figures available?


William Templeman: I am sure they are.


Richard Blain: It would be rather interesting to know what the revenue was.


William Templeman: I can get the figures but I do not think it was very much.


Mr. SEXSMITH.: How many (private places are there in Montreal and Ottawa where you can get assays made?


William Templeman: I am advised that there is one in Montreal, and I assume that there will be one in Ottawa. In smaller cities than Montreal and Ottawa there are a number of men engaged in the work of analysis and assay. In Victoria we have one or two making their living by that work, also in Vancouver and Nelson; at least there used to be one in Nelson. I do not know but what my hon. friend from Halton (Mr. Henderson) may think we should do this work for nothing.


David Henderson: I did not say so.


William Templeman: Or for very little.


David Henderson: Yes.


William Templeman: Less probably than the private practitioner demands. If we did that we might require a dozen chemists who might be analysing ores all the time. Plenty of ores that I have analysed at the request of members of this House were perfectly useless. It would be absolutely impossible for us to carry on our work unless we were making a small charge. We do not want to compete with outside assayers, and we think that a man who wants a sample of ore analysed should not

object to paying a dollar more for a government analysis than for a private one.


John Albert Sexsmith: It is not altogether the price, although the price has a good deal to do with it, but it is the inconvenience. I understand there is only one place where you can get this work done here and one in Montreal. In the county that I live in a man who is out prospecting finds it a very difficult and slow process. If a man is out prospecting and he has some 10, 20 or 30 samples that he wants to have assayed it is a very important matter to him if he is called upon to pay $2 or $3 to get each sample assayed. It means a great deal of money. Prospectors can go over to Belleville, where there is a provincial assay office, but they will probably have to wait two or three weeks to get a return. There are not very many men in Ontario making a business of assaying ores, and if the government had an institution doing the work at actual cost it would be in the interest of the country and of the mining industry. No man out prospecting, however expert he may be, can tell exactly what there is in rocks. It is necessary for him to have an analysis to know. If a man has ten, twenty, thirty or forty samples, if he has to send them to one of these assay offices and has to pay $2 or $3 each it means a very considerable sum. Perhaps some of the samples that he would consider worthless might be the ones that would turn out to be the most valuable. I am not altogether advocating a government assay office, but I think that in the interest of the country and of the mining industry it would be a good thing if one were established.


William Templeman: I am sorry that I have not the schedule of charges for this work, but I can have that information on the main estimates.


Mr. ARTHURS.: I think that the minister's reason for these charges is not a good one. It appears to me that it would be a benefit to the country and to the mining industry if these charges were made merely nominal. I think that is the case with the provincial assay office, and I see no reason why mining men should not be encouraged to send their ore down here for an independent assay as to its value. I think this is a department into which the government might very well go more extensively than it has in the past. As far as private offices are concerned, it is a well known fact to men who have been connected with mining that a great many of the supposed assays they get from these small offices are, to say the least, very misleading. It would be betteT to have an office on a larger scale under an official, where the public could be accommodated at a nominal charge.


William Templeman: 


John Albert Sexsmith: I am somewhat interested in this question. I know a prospector who sent samples to the government assay office and also to private offices to have them assayed. He found that at one office they had practically guessed at it, while at the other place they had made a proper assay.


William Templeman: That was not at the government office?


John Albert Sexsmith: No. But the slowness of the government office is what prospectors complain of. If they have to depend on these private offices generally they are not always satisfactory, as they sometimes are merely guessing at it. They send to you a printed report, and it is practically valueless to the prospector.


Mr. ARMSTRONG.: I would like to ask the minister to tell the House whether he is assisting any drilling operations, in what districts these are being assisted and the amount of money being expended.


William Templeman: The policy of assisting drilling operations which was carried on to a very limited extent two years ago was discontinued over a year ago, and it is not the intention of the department to revive it.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Has the $35,000 voted some years ago- for assisting drilling operations been disposed of?


William Templeman: Some two years ago there was a vote-of $25,000 for drilling for coal in Prince Edward Island. The government thought that as that province had seldom had any money expended in it for geological survey work and as we were anxious to demonstrate whether coal existed there, this vote should be taken, and it was expended for that purpose. There was a vote of $10,000 for drilling in the neighbourhood of Calgary and I think a little in the province of Nova Scotia. That is the last expenditure made by the department for such purpose. I am sorry to say we did not find any coal in Prince Edward Island.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many wells were drilled in Prince Edward Island and to what depth?


William Templeman: Five, at an average depth of about 2,000 feet.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Was the contract for these wells let by public tender? A return brought down some years ago showed an expenditure of $12,000 and we were waiting until the balance of the $35,000 was expended before making inquiry. This question is worthy of more attention than we can give it now, but let me ask why $25,000 was expended in Prince Edward Island when the minister has given up the idea

of doing such work in Ontario and the western provinces where there is a great deal of work to be done along these lines?


William Templeman: Under the terms of confederation the Dominion government has got to carry on geological survey work in all the provinces. In Prince Edward Island little geological survey work has ever been done, and the provincial government agreed to accept in lieu of it an expenditure of $25,000 by this government to demonstrate whether there was coal in that province. That is the reason and it is an excellent reason. If my hon. friend wishes to move for a return I will be very glad to bring down all the information with regard to the work carried out in Prince Edward Island.


Richard Blain: Were tenders called by public advertisement?


William Templeman: No. The director of the survey received from well known mining engineers the names of contractors for that class of work and he sent an invitation to each one to tender. It was just as good as though published in the newspapers because there are, I believe, very few professional drillers in the country.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Let me tell the minister that he can find expert drillers from Canada who are sent for from Borneo and India and other foreign lands to carry on their operations. In western Ontario, and in my own town particularly, there are to be found the most expert drillers in the world. I can tell the minister that my information is that this drilling was turned over to Yankee drillers who came here with Yankee drilling rigs, while Canadian drillers were walking the streets of Petrolia. Is not that a fact?
Mr. -TEMPLEMAN. I do not know whether that is a fact or not. My recollection is that a contract was given to a driller from the oil regions of western Ontario, whose name I forget at the moment. We had active competition and the price at which the contract was taken was low ; I think too low.


Richard Blain: The minister has a patronage list in his department?


William Templeman: There is no such thing in the Department of Mines. There has not been even a messenger appointed on account of his politics since I took charge.


Richard Blain: I was addressing my remarks about the drilling.


William Templeman: The lowest tenderer got the work and I do not know who he is or what his politics are.


Richard Blain: Did the minister advertise in the public press for tenders? If not,
I suppose he consulted the patronage list?


William Templeman: No.


Richard Blain: The minister shakes his head, but he admits that he hunted up a certain number of drillers and asked them for a price. The minister tells us he accepted the lowest tender and that part of it is all right, but the other part is all wrong. There are no doubt drillers in the country who are not on the minister's list and they should have a chance to tender.


William Templeman: I think this is the only instance in which the Department of Mines has had tenders for any purpose whatever, so that we have no policy on the subject. We got the names of a number of drillers from mining engineers. I shall be very glad to bring down full particulars if my hon. friend moves for a return. We wanted to deal directly with the practical men who had drilling machines and could do the work, and cut out the middleman.


Richard Blain: My hon. friend is evading the question. When he wants some drilling done he selects certain drillers and asks them to tender. I think my hon. friend should substitute a broader policy and call for tenders in a public way by advertisement in the newspapers. Then I do not see that it would make any difference whether the middleman reached the department or not.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The minister talks about there being only a few drilling plants in the country. At the time these contracts were let there were fully 75 drilling rigs operating in western Ontario, and if the minister had publicly advertised for tenders for this work in _ the newspapers he would have avoided this criticism. It was a large expenditure of money, $25,000 in Prince Edward Island and $10,000 in Nova Scotia for drilling, some of it in old holes. Some of these holes had been drilled, if I remember rightly, nearly 2,000 feet, and the contractor went on and completed the depth, and got payment, I suppose, for the whole of it. I would not consider that a business proposition on the part of the minister.


Richard Blain: What was the net result of this expenditure?


William Templeman: The net result was that the holes were drilled to a depth of 2,000 feet and no petroleum was discovered.


Richard Blain: How much was expended?


William Templeman: 


Richard Blain: Has my hon. friend given up the drilling business altogether?


William Templeman: Yes.	[DOT]


Mr. SHARPE (Lisgar).: Does the hon. minister intend to drill any wells in the western provinces? We have great indications of oil in southern Manitoba, and I think it would be a good idea.


William Templeman: After an experiment of several years, we have concluded that the subsidizing of well-drilling is not a desirable policy. It is not necessary to subsidize well-drilling in the province of Alberta, for instance, as private capital has expended hundreds of thousands of dollars there without asking any government aid. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company has been drilling for natural gas at two or three points, and several other large companies have been drilling for petroleum in southern Alberta, and also, I think, at points in Saskatchewan. Surely nobody would advocate the Dominion government subsidizing the drilling of wells for petroleum in western Ontario. If we ever started that business there would be no end to it. If the expenditure of $25,000, or even $50,000 would demonstrate the existence of a great petroleum field in the western provinces we would not hesitate for a moment to incur the expenditure; but private capital is doing that work, and while it has not been very successful as yet, it may be before long. We could spend a quarter of a million dollars in subsidizing well-drillers all over this country, and it is just because the demands on the department have exceeded the possibility of complying with them, and because of the lack of success we have had from the assistance given, that I determined a year ago to terminate altogether the policy of subsidizing well-drilling.


John Albert Sexsmith: I think the government got discouraged very easily when they stopped after spending $25,000; yet they expect private capital to go on and explore new fields. In my district there have been a number of private individuals making tests for petroleum. All the surface indications were as good as could be expected, but the great difficulty up to the present has been that the men who undertook the work have been unable to secure capital to go on. In a new field I do not think it would be out of place for the government to do some of that exploration work. $25,000 is a small thing in such an enterprise.


William Templeman: Ten or twelve years ago the government spent a much larger sum in northern Alberta alone, and struck a large gas well. Since that time aid has been given to companies or private individuals drilling wells on their own account. We gave a certain sum per foot after a certain depth. But except on the occasion I have mentioned we have never carried on independent work ourselves.


Richard Blain: 


John Albert Sexsmith: I understand the minister would not object to assisting in a small way private individuals exploring in a certain district?


William Templeman: Yes, the department will object to any more well-drilling anywhere. It has not worked satisfactorily, it was not encouraging and it would be very invidious to assist in one part of the country -and not in another. If the government are going to bore or assist in the boring of a hole to find petroleum, why should they not assist in running a shaft into a mountain to find a gold reef?


William Henry Sharpe: Was there not a vote of $20,000 three or four years ago for this kind of thing?


William Templeman: I do not remember a vote of that size. The largest was $25,000 for Prince Edward Island two years ago We had always had a small sum which we have expended from year to year. I think work has been done in half a dozen places in ten years.


William Henry Sharpe: The minister absolutely refuses to -assist in any wellboring.


William Templeman: Yes.
Department of Labour-salaries, $37,850; contingencies, $13,000.


Richard Blain: What is the explanation?


Mr. KING.: There is a net addition of three clerkships, one in the First Division, Subdivision B, to add a statistician to the department ; one in the Third Division, Subdivision A at $900, a clerk to assist in looking after correspondence, the filing of letters. That work has grown very considerably and up to the present time has taken the services of different-clerks, but I desire to have it under one clerk who will be primarily responsible. There is an increase of two in the staff of stenographic clerks. There was an appropriation voted last year for a clerk in Division 2, Subdivision B, $1,200 which is not being asked for this year.


Richard Blain: They will pass the Civil Service examination?


George Gerald King: Yes.


Richard Blain: How are these selected? Have they all -been appointed?


George Gerald King: None have been appointed as yet; if parliament votes the appropriation they will be appointed.


Richard Blain: Have they been selected?


George Gerald King: They are not selected yet.


Richard Blain: Will they be promotions or new officials?


George Gerald King: I think two of them may be promotions if the clerks qualify, but of course, they will have to satisfy the Civil Service Commission that they are suitable for the higher position. If they are I would prefer to appoint some one in the department rather than from outside.


Richard Blain: Is the work in the department increasing rapidly?


George Gerald King: Yes, the work is increasing very considerably.
Department of Trade and Commerce-salaries, $55,912.50; contingencies, $21,500.


George Eulas Foster: Are there any changes in this department?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Nearly all the increases are due to statutory increases. There is one promotion to the First Division, Subdivision B. That is Mr. Lewis, who goes up from the Second Division, Subdivision A. The vacancy in the Second Division is to be filled by a transfer from the outside service at the minimum salary.


Richard Blain: I see an item at Y-3 of the Auditor General's Report of $387 for printing books and maps. Where is this printing done?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is all in the Printing Bureau.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The minister means through the Printing Bureau Department. It is very likely distributed all over the country.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The different departments do not know that at all, they deal with the Printing Bureau entirely.
Office of the Auditor General-salaries, $106,500; contingencies, $6,500.


Mr. PERLEY.: As there is no minister in charge of this department, whose duty is it to recommend increases or changes in the staff?


Wilfrid Laurier: The estimates were prepared by the Auditor General himself.


George Halsey Perley: Does the government follow out his recommendations with regard to increases and changes in the staff?


Wilfrid Laurier: So far as I know, yes. Does my hon. friend (Mr. Per-ley) doubt it?


George Halsey Perley: I am asking for information. There being no minister in charge of the department, the Auditor General being responsible to this parliament alone, I was simply asking whether his recommendations with regard to changes in the staff were -carried out in all cases?


Wilfrid Laurier: So far as my memory goes, the recommendations of the
Auditor General have always been accepted. There may have been some difference of opinion as to whether a given change came within the rules of the civil service or not. Otherwise, I believe they are always accepted.


George Eulas Foster: If the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) will make inquiry, I think he will modify his opinion somewhat on that point. The Auditor General has to work through the Minister of Finance, and makes his recommendations the same as any other deputy minister. As a rule, his recommendations come with more force than from a deputy minister, because he is a semi-independent officer. But if the Finance Minister thinks it is improper to give certain increases, he puts his foot down.


Wilfrid Laurier: I do not dispute that. But I do not think the present Finance Minister has ever done it. My hon. friend (Mr. Foster) when Minister of Finance may have done it.


George Eulas Foster: I think others have done it. In the Auditor General's Department I see some increases in Class 3 A-provision, made for three more clerkships.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: And there are corresponding decreases in 3 B.


George Eulas Foster: I suppose that means promotions. .


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I suppose so.


George Eulas Foster: Whom is it proposed to promote?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not that information.


George Eulas Foster: Will the minister (Mr. Fisher) be kind enough to get that information? I will bring it up on another item.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.
High Commissioner's Office, London-salaries, $12,700; contingencies, $26,180.


George Eulas Foster: There seems to be the same number of clerks. But there is an increase of $4,900 in contingencies. What is the explanation of that?


Wilfrid Laurier: I cannot give that information.


George Eulas Foster: Better let it stand.


Wilfrid Laurier: Stand.
Departments generally-Contingencies-care and cleaning of departmental buildings, including amount of $50 each to E. Snowden and W. H. Jeffery for firing noon gun, $63,000.


George Eulas Foster: There is an increase here of $9,000, or exactly one-sixth over the previous year. What is the explanation of that?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not the facts before me. Let it stand.
Some resolutions reported.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved the adjournment of the House.


George Eulas Foster: Perhaps I ought to ask what will be the duties of to-morrow and next week?


Wilfrid Laurier: General enjoyment.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 5.40 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Wednesday, January 11, 1911.