1910-01-24

Mr. ALEXANDER HAGGART.: I would like to repeat verbally the question which I put on the Order Paper and which was answered a week ago with reference to the appointment of a successor to Chief Justice Dubuc. The answer given by the Department of Justice was to the effect that they did not know that there was serious inconvenience and loss to the profession, to suitors and to the public in Manitoba. I would ask now, at the expiry of a week, if we can be told when the successor is likely to be appointed and whether that successor will be a Frenchman or an Englishman.


Hon. A. B. AYLESWORTH.: Really I am not able to give any other answer to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Alexander Haggart) than was given the other day in reply to a question that was put on the Order Paper by him. I may say that I do not think it probably that the chief justice of the province will be a French speaking man, but the whole subject is under consideration.



INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-SAFETY OF TRAVEL.

Mr. C. JAMESON (Digby).: Before the orders of the day are called, I wish to bring up a matter of urgent and immediate importance and to ask a question of the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham). The question is as to the safety of travel on the Intercolonial railway. During the very able and instructive speech delivered by the hon. member for. Westmoreland (Mr. Emmerson) on Thursday last, he stated that-


Mr. SPEAKER.: Is the hon. member (Mr. Jameson) going to discuss the matter, and, for that purpose, to move the adjournment of the House?


Clarence Jameson: No, I bring the matter up before the orders of the day.


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: The hon. member cannot discuss the subject then.


Clarence Jameson: I am not going to discuss it but merely to ask a question. The hon. member for Westmorland said ' certain sections of the Intercolonial are not in good and safe condition.' The Minister of Railways and Canals, in replying to the hon. member, did not touch on that point and did not contradict, the hon. member's statement. Now, having in mind the awful accident which occurred on the Canadian Pacific railway on Friday last by which some thirty-one persons are reported to have been killed and a much larger number seriously injured, and which, it is said, was due to a defect in the physical condition of the road, I would like to ask the minister, to what extent and at what points on the Intercolonial the condition described as unsafe by the hon. member for Westmoreland exists; whether the minister was previously aware of it; why it was permitted to develop; what steps, if any, have been taken or will be taken to over-

come it; and,, when the road will be in safe condition for travel?


Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM.: That question, I think, might better have been asked the hon. member for Westmoreland (Mr. Emmerson). There is liable to be a great difference of opinion between him and myself as to the real accuracy of the statement. I may say that, owing to representations made to me, I had the Superintendent of Maintenance of Way go over the road from Sydney to Montreal, and he reported to me, within the last few days, that every foot of it, so far as he could find out, was in good condition.



ST. PETER'S INDIAN RESERVE.

Mr. BRADBURY.: I desire to ask the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Oliver) when I may expect the report showing the instructions given to Chief Justice Howell with regard to the surrender of the St. Peter's Indian reserve?


Hon. FRANK OLIVER.: Probably tomorrow.
I would like to have the opportunity of consulting with my officers. I have no reason to suppose that the Bill is not correct, but I would like it to stand for the third reading until the n'ext day.


Mr. HENDERSON.: As the Minister of Finance is present now and was not present in the committee when this Bill was passed, I would like to hear his opinion about the name whch is proposed in this Bill-the Factories Insurance Company. It seems to me that it is of too general a character.


An hon. MEMBER.: This not the same Bill.


Mr. FIELDING.: It was because I was necessarily absent at that meeting and I am not familiar with the Bill that I am asking the third reading to be delayed, not that I have any objection to the Bill at all -I have no reason to suppose that the Bill is not right-but a question was put to me by an hon. gentleman concerning it, and I would like it to stand for that reason.


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: Stands until the next meeting.



MONTMAGNY FIRE INSURANCE COMPANY.


[Stage Direction]
House in Committee on Bill (No. 51) respecting the Montmagny Fire Insurance Company, to change its name to ' Manufacturers Fire Insurance Company.'
On section 2,
Mr. MILLER.: The Bill as we have it states that the name should be ' The Manufacturers Fire Insurance Company.' In committee it was agreed, and consented to by the promoters of the Bill, that in the House the title should be changed, and that the name should be the Factories Fire Insurance Company. If necessary, I will move that the name be changed to the Factories Fire Insurance Company.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: I understand the rule is that, while the Bill itself may be amended in committee, the title has to be amended in the House.
Bill reported.



NORTHERN MORTGAGE COMPANY OF CANADA

[Stage Direction]
On the motion that Bill (No. 33) to incorporate the Northern Mortgage Company of Canada-Mr. A. Haggart-be read the third time.
William Stevens Fielding: I would be glad if the hon. gentleman in charge of the Bill would allow the third reading to stand until next meeting. An hon. gentleman in the House has called my attention to some provisions in it. I am not taking any exception but Mr. JAMESON.


Mr. LAVERGNE moved:: That Bill (No. 51) respecting the Montmagny Mutual Fire Insurance Company and to change its name to the Manufacturer's Fire Insurance Company be now passed, and that the title be entered on the Order Paper as the Factories Insurance Company.


David Henderson: This is the Bill to which I had reference a moment ago where the change in name takes place. I mentioned the fact that the Minister of Finance was not in his place. -I take no exception to that, I know that he has many things to attend to, but I am aware that in former years the minister has been very particular about names contained in various Bills in order that no one company will get any possible advantage over another in the matter of its name. We all regret perhaps that the Dominion bank ever secured that name because we believe it gives it a decided advantage over every banking institution in the country. It seems to me that The Factories Insurance Company is too general and it might give the impression all over the country that this is the only company that has to deal with factories. I think it is of too general a character and that the Bill should be amended in some way. I would like to hear the opinion of the Minister of Finance upon it.


William Stevens Fielding: I have not had the matter before me. My hon. friend (Mr. Henderson) is correct in saying that in the committee we have endeavoured to guard

against a confusion or similiarity of names which would lead to one company being mistaken for another. That, after all, is the main purpose. I will not pretend to say that the word ' factories,' is a word that can be patented by any body, but I do not think it would lead to any confusion. I do not think it would be alleged that this is the name of another company or that it is similar to the name of another company. My hon. friend's point is that it might convey the impression that this is the only company that has the right to deal with factories.


David Henderson: Yes, that it is too general.


William Stevens Fielding: I am afraid that upon that principle you might shut down upon a great many names. I have not had the opportunity of thinking it over and at present I do not feel like opposing the Bill.


Mr. SPROULE.: It seems pretty close to the Manufacturers' Insurance Company, and there might be some objection to it on that ground.


William Stevens Fielding: Do the Manufacturers' Insurance Company object?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I am not aware that they do.


William Stevens Fielding: Was there any representation on that point?


David Henderson: No, I am not aware that there was, but that is not the main point. I think the name is too general. We have always objected to a name of a too general character which would seem to give a particular company an advantage over all other companies doing a like business. It might create a wrong impression in the country. Agents might make use of it. It might be represented that they have a right to deal with factories over that of any other company.


Mr. FOSTER.: The company came to this House under the name of the Mont-magny Mutual Fire Insurance Company and asked for powers. That is a remarkable localized name. It implies that it belongs to a county, that its capital is chiefly in that county and its management is a small one. You take that up immediately and elevate it to the Factories Insurance Company. You take away all idea of locality and make what is really a local company as wide as the name implies. That gives too much of an advantage. A man would look upon that company as a large company. It is not limited to anything; it is not a county or a provincial company. It is given the broad designation of the factories company. It has two objections, to my mind, the first one being that it gives 73
too much of an advantage to a localized, small company and, of course, if it gives an advantage it is to the disadvantage of all insurers. The other is that it takes a general appellation which shuts out every other company. Suppose another company with three times the capital and three times the influence comes forward and wants to call itself the Factories Company. If all the capital in the Dominion of Canada is behind it it cannot do it. It has to give precedence to a small local company-. These are, I think, two strong objections to that kind of a name. I think it ought to be localized in some kind of a way. Taking that general name you prevent any_ other aggregation of capital from ever asking^ or taking that general name and in allowing that to be used as a cognomen you limit it to this company or else you violate the rule against one company taking the name of another.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not think any injustice can be done by permitting this company to take the name. It is surely a case of first come first served, and the fact that this is a small company should not deprive it of the right to use the name. As to this being a general appellation, surely if a. company should call itself the Farms Building Insurance Company it would simply indicate that they were making a specialty of that class of business, and it would not be reasonable to say that no other company should insure farm buildings. I have only seen the Bill a moment ago and I have not considered the question, but I do not think there can be any objection to the name.


George Eulas Foster: We should have some regard to the constitution of the company, its capitalization, its powers and the like of that. Suppose an insignificant company were to ask us to give it a name applicable to the whole country and thereby debarred for ever after any other large company taking the same name, I think the fact that the former company was small and insignificant should have weight with us, in connection with a general name. I do not know whether this is a powerful company or not, but judging by the fact that it takes the name of a county I should think it was limited in its scope.


Mr. TALBOT.: I would, ask the Speaker to name some other member as seconding the motion for a change ol name. That company does a great deal of business in my countv and I might be called to account for creating confusion if the name be changed.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



SECOND READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 106) respecting the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company-Mr. Nesbitt.
Bill (No. 107) to incorporate the Ottawa, Montreal and Eastern Railway Company -Mr. Gladu.
Bill (No. 108) to incorporate the Rainy River Radial Railway-Mr. Conmee.

Mr. LENNOX:: 1.	What portions indicated by location and mileage, of the eastern division of the Transcontinental Railway were surveyed by the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, taken over by the government, and paid for by the country?
2.	What portion of this survey, identified by location and mileage, was rearranged and relocated by Major Hodgins, or any other government engineer ?
3.	Was a portion of the section let to J. D. McArthur, re-surveyed, or the survey revised by Major Hodgins, or any government engineer, $ind the location of parts of the line r - - *[DOT] aiter the contract was let to McArthur ?
4.	Was the road improved by this change of location? If so, how, and was the cost of the work thereby cut down, and to what extent?


Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM:: 
Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	J. A. Heamen.
2 and 4. No. He resigned in November, 1907.
3.	$275 per month when he resigned.
5.	A. M. Macgillivray succeeded Heamen but did not sign September estimate.


Mr. LENNOX:: 1.	What is the length of the long tunnel on the National Transcontinental railway east of Winnipeg river ?
2.	What proportion of the work has been done on this tunnel, or has it been completed? If s'o, when was the last work done upon it? If not, when will it probably be completed?


Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	613 feet.
2.	Reported completed December, 1908. Mr. LENNOX:
1.	Has the portion of the Transcontinental railway between Winnipeg and Lake Superior Junction been completed in every respect? If not, what remains to be done?
2. Is it open for general passenger and freight traffic, and to whac extent has it actually been used?
3.	Has this part of the line been ballasted?
4.	Has it been taken off the hands of the contractors, have cheir accounts been adjusted and have they been paid in full? If not, what sums have been held back, and why?
5.	Has this portion of the road been taken over by the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company and has the cost of construction upon which the rental is to be based been determined between the government and the company? If so. at what sum?
Total saving, capitalized value? 109,546 40


Onésiphore Ernest Talbot: 


George Perry Graham: 1	and 4. No. The percentage reports to December 31, 1909, show 94-66 per cent completed.
2	and 5. The line has not yet been taken over by the Grand Trunk Pacific Company, but the engineers report trains can run over this section at a speed of from 20 to 25 miles per hour; a passenger train and a train of wheat have passed over the line, and the contractor under date November 23, 1909, has offered to operate two trains a week, and the Grand Trunk Pacific Company was so advised toy the commissioners.
3.	The percentage report for district ' F,' December 31, 1909, shows 59 per cent of ballasting complete.


Mr. LENNOX:: 1.	Upon the section of the Transcontinental railway in district ' F,' let to J. D. McArthur, what were the government engineer's estimated quantities of (a) solid rock, (b) loose rock, and (c) common excavation, upon which tender wias accepted and contract let?
2.	At the time the contract was let, what was the estimated expenditure, based on contract prices, for (a) solid rock, (b) loose rock, and (c) common excavation?
3.	How many cubic yards each of (a) solid rock, (b) loose rock, (c) common excavation, and of what value, separately, have been returned and claimed bv the contractor or his sub-contractors for work alleged to be done, and what is the estimated quantity and value under each of these headings of work yet to be done, according to latest estimate?
4.	What sums have actually been paid under each of these headings?
5.	At the time this contratc was let, what was the total estimated expenditure based upon contract prices ?


Mr. GRAHAM:: 

S.R.-$9,816,279 57 L.R.- 1,110,400 38.

[Stage Direction]
C.X.-	598,286 52.
5.	$13,010,398.92 based on estimate quantities as taken from profile of preliminary location and not including rails, ties, steel bridges, &c. Subsequent revised estimates including above $17,534,000.

Mr. OWEN:: 1.	What was the total cost of the last Dominion election?
73i
2.	What does it cost to maintain the Senate for one year?


Hon. CHAS. MURPHY:: 1.	$401,957.74.
2.	$319,653.02.



REPAIRS TO CAR 37, I.C.R.

Mr. EMMERSON:: 1.	Is car No. 37 the official car used by Mr. E. Tiffin, general traffic manager of the Intercolonial railway and a member of the Managing Board of Government Railway Board?
2.	Has this car been recently repaired or is it now undergoing repairs in the shops of a private car firm or corporation in Halifax, N.S.? If so, was the work done, or is it now being done, by contract after tender or by days' work?
3.	Is it true that new and commodious repair shops were constructed at Moncton, and modern machinery installed therein, with a view not only of doing all necessary repair work in connection with the Intercolonial railway, but as well to do all such construction work of cars and locomotives as would be payable out of the current revenues of the railway?
4.	Why have the repairs on the car referred to not been made or undertaken in the government railway shops either at Moncton or elsewhere?
5.	Have any oars or locomotives been constructed or their construction undertaken in the new shops at Moncton?
6.	Have any new cars or locomotives payable out of current revenue account been purchased from or placed under contract with, private car or locomotive corporations or firms during the present fiscal year; and if any such purchases were made or contracts entered into was it done after tenders being asked?


Mr. GRAHAM:: 1.	Yes.
2.	The expense of doing the work in the Moncton shops was carefully estimated and contracts were let at a less price to the Silliker Car Company.
3.	Yes, but the shops in question have been overwhelmed with ordinary repairs due to the fact that during the interim of the transfer from the old to the new shops a considerable quantity of work had accumulated. The staff is now gaining rapidly upon it, and in a short time will be down to normal conditions. In the meantime, it was thought best to have car ' 37 ' repaired and put in safe shape to run.
4.	Answered by No. 3.
5.	The full capacity of the shops is taken up at present with repair work, but as the organization improves new work will be started.
6.	Yes.



CIVIL SERVICE APPOINTMENTS.

Mr. HUGHES:: 1.	How many persons who have passed the necessary examination to obtain appointments

in the Civil Service since the present Civil Service Act came into force have as yet been appointed to the government service?
2.	Has the government in its employ at the present time any persons who have failed to pass the requisite examination?
3.	Is it the policy of the government to keep temporary employees at work in the departments when there are numbers who have passed the necessary examination who are desirous of securing employment?
4.	Under whose recommendation do temporary employees secure appointments to the service?
5.	Are the moneys voted as salaries to temporary employees paid out of funds for the inside or outside service in all cases?


Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	Number of persons who have passed the regular examinations for the inside service since the coming into force of the present Civil Service Act.
Interim examinations, March, 1909: Second division competitive examination:
Passed	 5
Permanently appointed	 3
. Temporarily appointed	2
Unappointed	 0
Competitive examination for stenographers and typewriters:
Passed	19
Permanently appointed	15
Temporarily appointed'	3
*Unappointed	 1
*Refused appointment.
First semi-annual examinations, May. 1909.
Second Division competitive examination:
Passed	 8
Permanently appointed	 7
Temporarily appointed	 0
*Unappointed	 1
^Refused appointment.
Third Division competitive examination:
Passed	 37
Permanently appointed	25
Temporarily appointed	 7
*Unappointed	 5
*Four refused appointment.
Lower Grade qualifying examination:
Passed	25
Permanently appointed	11
Temporarily appointed	 2
Unappointed	12
Second semi-annual examinations, November, 1909.
Second Division competitive examination:
Passed	 9
Permanently appointed	 1
Temporarily appointed	 0
Unappointed	 8
Third Division competitive examination:
Passed	 41
Permanently appointed	10
Temporarily appointed	23
Unappointed	 8


Mr. HUGHES.: Competitive examination for stenographers
and typewriters:
Passed	 4
Permanently appointed	 0
Temporarily appointed	 0
Unappointed	 4
Lower Grade qualifying examination:
Passed	10
Permanently appointed		0
Temporarily appointed	 2
Unappointed	 8
2.	In so far as this question relates to the inside service, No. With respect to the outside service, an answer can be given only on a return to an Order of the House.
3.	' No.
4.	All temporary employees must have certificates of qualification from the Civil Service Commission.
5.	With respect to the inside service, the salaries of temporary employees are paid out of the appropriation for ' clerical assistance,' and if there is no such appropriation out of that, for contingencies. With respect to the outside service, the salaries of temporary employees are paid out of the appropriation for the service in which the temporary employees are employed.



CHARGES IN ARMY SERVICE CORPS.

Mr. WORTHINGTON:: 1.	Is the government aware that information has been laid according to the requirements of the Criminal Code by two citizens of the city of Ottawa, charging the officer commanding the Ottawa company of the army service corps, with a number of indictable offences in connection with the military camp at Quebec during the Tercentenary celebration, and that such charges are now awaiting trial by the Criminal Courts?
2.	Do the King's regulations, or the customs of the British service, require that when the character of an officer has been seriously impugned, he is, as a matter of routine, suspended from duty pending the investigation of charges preferred against him?
3.	Has the officer concerned been suspended from duty as commanding officer of a militia corps? If not, why not?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No.
3.	No, the case is subjudice. LIGHTHOUSE KEEPER AT CAROUSEL.


Mr. GIRARD:: 1.	Has a person named T. Areand, lighthouse keeper at Carousel, Seven islands, been removed in 1909 ? If so, what are the reasons for his removal?
2.	Who are the persons outside of the Marine Department, who have directly or indirectly asked for his removal?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	Yes. Unsatisfactory service.
2.	No person outside of the department asked for the removal of this keeper.



OTTAWA ARMY SERVICE CORPS AT QUEBEC.

Mr. WORTHINGTON:: 1.	Is the government aware whether one
man, two horses and one double carriage were taken from Ottawa to Quebec for the Tercentenary celebration by the officer commanding the Ottawa company of the army service corps, and hire therefor claimed for by him on the official pay-sheets as company draught horses and light wagon, but which did no company work whatsoever, having been hired, transported and held entirely for the personal use of members of the militia council ?	.
2.	If so, by whose authority were such arrangements effected, and by whom were such horses and carriage made use of at Quebec?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: I am advised that the answer to this question is, No, but if the hon. gentleman will allow the question to stand as a notice of motion, I will bring down any papers in connection with it.


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: Stand as a notice of motion for a return.



REPORT OF PRIME MINISTER'S SPEECH AT TORONTO.

Mr. LAKE:: 
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:: 1.	The report of Sir Wilfrid Laurier's speech, which was published in the Toronto 'Globe' of January 6, notwithstanding some slight inaccuracies, is substantially correct, but the citation in the question of the hon. gentleman is not a correct reproduction of that report. It is garbled and omits an important part of the sentence. I am quite sure that the misquotation was unintentional on the part of the hon. gentleman, and he would have averted it if he had consulted the 'Globe' itself, instead of Tory newspapers. The passage cited by my hon. friend, as he can read it in the 'Globe,' is in these words: 'We are under the suzerainty of the King of England. We are his loyal subjects. We bow the knee to him, but the King of England has no more rights over us than are allowed him by our own Canadian parliament.' My hon. friend will notice that in his quotation, the words, 'We are his loyal subjects,' are not to be found. To be more particular, the whole passage is thus reported in the 'Globe': 'The great poet Whittier, in the time of the civil war, wrote: "We bow the heart, if not the knee, t >
the Queen of England, God bless her." ' We say: 'We bow the heart and the knee to the King of England, God bless him.' We are under the suzerainty of the King of England. We are his loyal subjects. We bow the knee to him, but the King of England has no more rights over us than are allowed him by our own Canadian parliament.'
2.	This is the view of our relations to the Throne, which is held by all true, loyal British subjects.


George Eulas Foster: How is the Tight hon. gentleman going to speak for them all?


Sir WILFRID LAURIER.: If they are not, they ought to be.


George Eulas Foster: That is not what the right hon. gentleman said; he made an assertion of facts.
SCOTSBURN-LOGANVILLE MAIL CON'	TRACT.


Mr. RHODES:: 1.	Who has the contract for carrying mails, between Scotsburn station, Pictou county. Nova Scotia, and West Branch River John, Loganville, and other points on the same
route?
2.	When was the contract awarded, and what is the contract price of the work?
3.	Who is the postmaster at West Branch River John above mentioned?
4.	When was such postmaster appointed, and what allowance does he receive for the work?


Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX:: 1 and 2. Pending an inquiry into the advisability of a rearrangement of services in the district referred to, the department has been paying Mr. Daniel McIntosh $2 per day since the 1st January instant, to operate the service.
3.	Daniel Campbell.
4.	February 1, 1901-$128 per annum.



SPECIAL POST OFFICE EXAMINATION, MARCH, 1908.

Mr. J. D. TAYLOR:: Referring to special promotion examination of the Post Office Department, March 12, 1908, what in effect was accepted or would have been accepted by the Board of Civil Service Examiners as correct answer to question 4, viz.: ' What correspondence may pass through the Canadian mails free of Canadian postage?'


Rodolphe Lemieux: All correspondence to and from the Governor General and his secretary.
All duly franked official correspondence from the public departments at Ottawa.
All correspondence to the public departments at Ottawa.

All correspondence to or from the Speakers of either House or the Librarian of Parliament.
Parliamentary library books passing between library and members of either House of parliament.
Parliamentary papers sent during recess by members of either House of parliament ox by members of provincial legislatures.
Petitions and addresses to provincial legislatures, or any branch; also votes, proceedings and other papers printed by order of any legislature or branch thereof.
Remittances from postmasters to banks, and acknowledgments from banks to postmasters.
Letters on H.M.S. addressed to imperial departments of state in United Kingdom.
Documents from provincial legislatures relating to agricultural, industrial and sanitary matters, and returns made to provincial governments on prepared forms respecting same matters.
Returns of births, marriages and deaths made by clergymen and others.
Contagious diseases reports and meteorological reports.
Provincial government blank forms for returns.
Customs notices to addressees of dutiable parcels, manifests, way bills passing between collectors of customs and postmasters authorized to collect duty.
Books in raised characters for the blind.



SALES OF LAND IN SURREY, B.C.

James Davis Taylor: Has the government disposed of the following lands in the municipality of Surrey, B.C., viz.: S. E. quarter-section, Bk. 34, Tp. 2; N. half S. S. E. quarter Bk. 34, Tp. 2; and section 31, Bk. 5, N. R. 1 W., Tp. 38, Westminster district? If so, to whom, on what dates, and on what terms?


Frank Oliver: 


The N.: i of the S. E. \ of section 34, Tp. 2, W.C.M., was sold at the rate of $5 per acre, on the 31st of July, 1891, to Denis Murphy, Esq.; by him assigned to the British Columbia Timber and Electric Company, and released to the Crown by that company on the 26th of March, 1905.


The S.: J of the S. E. i of section 34 has not been disposed of.
The description ' N. i 8. S. E. I, Bk. 34, Tp. 2,' is insufficient for the location of the land.
The land described as ' section 31, Bk. 5, N.R. 1 W., Tp. 38,' or, according to the Dominion survey, the S. W. i of section 3, Tp. 38, W.C.M., has not been disposed of.



LEASE OF LAND IN WESTMINSTER DISTRICT.

Mr. J. D. TAYLOR:: 1. With respect to 40 acres southerly 10 chains, section 30, Bk. 5, N.R. 1 W., Tp. 38, Mr. LEMIEUX.
Westminster district, is this land under lease for timber or other purposes? If so, to whom, upon what terms, and for what period?
2.	Has any application been made for preemption of homesteading? If so, by whom, and upon what dates?
3.	Has any report been made to the department upon application pending? If so, by whom, and to what effect?


Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	This land is held under timber license by the British Columbia Mills, Timber and Trading Company. It is held under the terms contained in the timber regulations. Yearly licenses are issued subject to renewal as long as timber of the kind specified in the license remains on the berth in sufficient quantities to make it commercially valuable.
2.	No application to pre-empt or homestead this land has been made to head office. If an application has been made to the local agent of Dominion lands the department has not yet been advised.
3.	No report has been made to the department.



POSTAL PENALTIES.

James Davis Taylor: Are penalties for violation of the postal law or regulations imposed otherwise than as the result of prosecutions? If so, what is the procedure followed?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes. Under the statute, which provides that the Postmaster General, or any of the officers or persons acting under his orders, may accept any penalty incurred under the terms of the Postal Act or any part thereof, without action, suit, or information brought or commenced for the recovery thereof. See section 9, subsection W.-Cap 66, R.S.C.



ESQUIMALT FORTIFICATIONS.

Mr. BARNARD:: 1.	Was it with the concurrence of the Imperial War Office and in furtherance of their policy at the time the fortifications at Esquimau were taken over, that the upper battery at Rod Hill should be dismantled and the six disappearing guns constituting the armament of the battery, should be removed to the drill hall ac Victoria, to be used for training purposes of the 5tli Regiment?
2.	If so, what was the date of such concurrence, or of the expression of such policy, by whom was such concurrence given or expression made, and was it made or given verbally or in writing?	-
3.	The same questions are asked with reference to the removal of the gun from Duntze Hill to the drill hall?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN:: 1. The removals of the 6-inch B.L. gun from Rod Hill and of the gun from Duntze Hill to the drill hall were undertaken with

the approval of the Militia Council at the urgent representation of the military authorities at Esquimalt that such removal was desirable to facilitate the training of the 5th regiment.
2	and 3. Answered by No. 1.



GOVERNMENT RESIDENT ENGINEERS.

Mr. BARNARD:: How many resident engineers of the Public Works Department are there in each of the different provinces and what is the salary of each engineer?


Hon. WM. PUGSLEY:: 


Geo.   P.@: Brophy, Ottawa, Ont	$3,01)0
R. de B. Corriveau, Ottawa, Ont	 2,350
J. G. Sing, Toronto, Ont	 2,700
H. J. Lamb, London, Ont	 2,600
W P. Merrick, Port William, Ont	2,200
E. B.	Temple, Port Arthur, Ont	
2,400W. C.	Brough, Port Burwell, Ont	
2,000E. G. Millidge, Antigonish, N.S	
2,400O.	E. W. Dodwell, Halifax, N.S.. . - .. 2,700


Thos.   J.@: Lockie, Halifax, N.S	 2,200


Mr.  F. B.@: Hegan, Charlottetown, P.E.I.. .. 2,400
E.	T. P. Shewen, St. John, N.B	 2,400
J. K. Scammell, St. John, N.B	 1,800
Geoffrey Stead, Chatham, N.B	 2,400
J. L. Michaud, Montreal, Que	 2,400
Thos. Breen, Quebec, Que	 2,400
A. R. Decary, Quebec, Que	 2,500
J. A. Tremblay, Montmagny, Que	 1,900
P.	E.	Amiot, Father Point, Que	
2,000J. T.	Bertrand, Isle Verte, Que	
2,400F.	X. Lefebvre, Three Rivers, Que.. .. 2,300 F. X. T. Berlinguet, Three Rivers, Que. 2,350J. C. TachA Chicoutimi, Que	
2,250A. R. Dufresne, Winnipeg, Man	
2,700Z. Malhiot, Calgary, Alta	
2,400


Geo.   A.@: Keefer, New Westminster, B.C. 2,700 POSTAL SERVICE, B.C.


Mr. J. D. TAYLOR:: 1.	What was the date of the discontinuance of postal service at the post office known as Central Park?
2.	What was the date of the commencement of postal service at the post office known as East Collingwood?
3.	What notice was given to those who had been accustomed to receive mail at Central Park that the office would be removed?
4.	Was any request made to the Postal Department, or any official of the department, by any person or persons outside of service, for the discontinuance of the postal service at Central Park?	,,	.
5.	If so, by whom? If not, why did the department take action?


Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	As stated, in answer to a previous inquiry, postal service has not been discontinued at the Central Park post office. The post office, as stated, was removed to its present location on the 1st August, 1909.
2.	1st September, 1909.
3.	It is not usual in the case of a change in the location of a post office to give any
special notice. The fact becomes generally known without delay.
4	and 5. A largely signed petition was received from patrons of the Central Park post office complaining of the management and asking that the office he removed from the control of the postmaster at that time. The case was referred to the inspector for investigation, who recommended as the result of inquiries, that a change be made in the postmastership.



SEALING ON PACIFIC.

Mr. J. D. TAYLOR:: 1.	Is there a proposal under consideration by the government for the discontinuance of sealing on the Pacific by Canadian citizens
2.	If so, what is the nature of the proposal,
and to what stage have the negotiations advanced?	.
3.	Has any advice been given to the individual seal hunters, or any negotiations in that regard? If so, to whom has this advice been delivered on their behalf ?
4.	Is there to be any compensation paid, will the individual seal hunters share in the distribution, or will it be confined to the owners of sealing vessels?
5.	Has any advice been given to the owners of sealing vessels, of any negotiations in this regard, or has the government any reason to suppose that the owners are aware of negotiations that may be in progress?


Wilfrid Laurier: A proposal for a total cessation of sealing during a number of years has been and is now under consideration. It would not be advisable in the public interest to bring down any information on this subject at the present time.



CARE OF IMMIGRANTS IN MEDICINE HAT.

Mr. MAGRATH:: 1.	What facilities have the Department of
the Interior in the city of Medicine Hat for the proper housing and care of arriving immigrants?	,
2.	Has the department made any requests on the Department of Public Works for the
P of a building for such purposes? If so, when?


Mr. OLIVER :: 1.	No facilities for the housing of immigrants, but there is an office, with an agent in charge, to receive and direct them. Facilities for housing, to serve for that district, are provided at Irvine, twenty-two miles east of Medicine Hat.
2.	No.
EXPERIMENTAL FARM, AGASSIZ, B.C. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR:
1. What was the contribution of the Dominion government towards the cost of construction of the ditch into which the experimental farm at Agassiz, B. C., drains?

2.	What is the total acreage of government owned land draining into the ditch, and what is the total acreage of privately owned land so draining?
3.	What was the total cost of the ditch?
I. Have representations been made to the government that it has said to have become necessary to remove an accumulation of sediment in order to make the ditch effective, and that this sediment is said to come in considerable proportion from the experimental farm ?
5. If this condition be found to exist, will tlie government bear an equitable proportion of the cost of the work required?


Hon. SYDNEY FISHER:: 1.	An order in council dated July 19, 1900, authorized the payment of $754.93, as an amount equivalent to that under which the same circumstances, a subject would be required to pay calculated on the same basis as the ditch commissioner of Agassiz established for the surrounding properties. This sum was paid in full compensation and discharge of all payments, contributions or assessments to be paid by the Crown to entitle the Crown to the use of the work.
2.	The area of government land is 295 acres, and the area of privately owned land is 1,144 acres.
3.	It is said to have cost about $5,000.
4.	No representations have been made as fo the deposit of sediment from the experimental farm, though the claim has been made that the ditch is unable to carry away the drainage from the experimental farm and from the other farms as well. This the superintendent of the farm considers to be due to the fact that the ditch has never been cleaned out, and has become obstructed by cattle breaking down the banks and by frost action.
5.	As far back as September, 1908, the department declared its willingness to bear its share in the expense of cleaning out the ditch and is still willing to do so.



LAKE NIPISSING FLOODED LANDS.

Mr. GEO. GORDON:: IV hat are the names of the parties who have received moneys for flooded lands around Lake Nipissmg since December 31, 1968 and the sum paid to each?


William Pugsley: J. Labendresse	$ 22 50
D. St. George	 120 00
C. Courchaine	 80 00
Total	$ 868 00



ST. PETER'S INDIAN RESERVE.

George Henry Bradbury: X. Has the government, or any one on its behalf, sent an officer or person to St. Peter's Indian reserve, Manitoba, for the purpose of making any investigation into the surrender and sale of said reserve, or the sale of lands recently granted to Indians of said reserve?
2.	If so, what is the name and occupation of such person, what were his instructions and what was the result of his investigation?
3.	Has any report, written or verbal, been made by such person, and will the minister lay the said report on the table?
4.	Has any representation, report or communication been sent to the government suggesting or urging the surrender or sale of said reserve during the last five years? If so, from whom? .
5.	What are the rules of the said band as to notice of meeting, presiding officer, &c., upon the surrender of a reserve, and does the consent require a vote of a majority of the male members of the band over 21 years of age, or only a majority of those present at the meeting?


Mr. OLIVER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Mr. A. S. Williams, law clerk of the Department of Indian Affairs, and Mr. S. Swinford, Inspector for the South Lake Winnipeg inspectorate. Their instructions will be laid on the table of the House on motion.
3.	No.
4.	Yes, by S. J. Jackson, late M.P. for the district.
5.	The rule or custom of the St. Peter's band regarding meetings is that sufficient notice be given to permit the members of the band being made aware if the intention to hold a meeting and of its purport. Consent for surrender requires a vote of the majority of the male members 21 years of age present at the meeting. Meetings are presided over by an officer duly authorized by the Superintendent General.



CEMENT MERGER.

[Stage Direction]
H. Knink	
H. Quesnel	
J. and H. Tremblay.
O. Lafranee	
J. Noble	
S. R. Connell	
C. Lefebvre	
Jos. Walker	
A. Lefebvre	
J. Steep	
L.	M. Deslongchamps
F. Lajeunesse	
J. Lajeunesse	
M.	Landry
James Davis Taylor: 15 00 75 00 225 00 15 00 52 50 75 00 7 50 50 00 22 50 70 00 15 00 4 00 4 00 15 00


Mr. S. SHARPE:: 1.	Has the government received any complaints concerning the cement merger and the reported illegal combination resulting therefrom to inflate the prices of cement to consumers ?
2.	Is the government aware that this merger is said to be unlawfully increasing the prices to consumers?
3.	If the government is not aware of the illegal operations of the cement combine, does it intend to institute inquiries in respect thereto ?

4.	Has the government under consideration the advisability of instituting' prosecution against those responsible for this alleged combine?


Hon. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	One communication has been received in which it is alleged that the effect of the cement merger has been to enhance the price of cement and restrict competition.
2.	The government has received no information to this effect.
3	and 4. No representations as to any illegal operations of the cement merger have been made to the government.
GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC CLASSIFICATIONS.	'	[DOT]


Mr. LENNOX:: 1.	Have any written objections to classification upon the Transcontinental railway been made since July 28, 1908?	_
2.	Have any objections been made in reference to overbreak or other over-expenditure since October 2, 1908?
3.	Will the minister bring down a copy of these objections?


James Kirkpatrick Kerr: Stand as notice of motion for return.



MOTIONS AGREED TO WITHOUT DISCUSSION.

[Stage Direction]
For a return showing: (a) the names of the contractors for construction of the National Transcontinental railway and the number, mileage and location of the contract;
(b)	the estimated expenditure under each contract at the time the contract was let, based upon the engineer's estimate of quantities, at rates of the accepted tender (c) the estimated increase or decrease in expenditure
* in each case occasioned by change in location, specification, construction, material, grade or other change subsequent to the letting of the contract; (d) the amount returned and claimed on progress estimates under each contract to date; the amount actually paid under each contract, and the estimated amount yet required to complete the work in each case; (e) the engineer's estimated quantity of solid rock, loose rock and common excavation in the section of line covered by each contract, the estimated cost under these headings, based upon the rates of the accepted tender, the actual expenditure under these headings to date, as shown by progress estimates, the amounts actually paid to date under these headings, and the estimated quantities of work yet to be. done, and the estimated sums yet to be paid under these headings in respect to each contract.
Also, as to all contracts other than the twenty-one covered by the return brought down on the 26th of April, 1909, No. 46h; a copy of (a) engineer's itemized estimate of quantities as to each contract of each class of work and material, as set out in the schedules and itemized, and total estimated expenditure based upon rates of accepted tender, and (b) a copy of all tenders received;
(c)	itemized quantities of work and material under the various headings actually done or furnished to date, and itemized, and total
expenditure therefor; itemized statement of estimated quantities of work yet to be done and material, &c., yet to be furnished and itemized, and total estimated cost of the same based on contract prices.-Mr. Lennox.
For a copy of all instructions given during his term of office by the Honourable Speaker Blanchet to the then Sergeant-at-Arms or to other officials in connection with the appointment of sessional messengers.-Mr. Monk.
For a return showing what interest or control the Canadian Northern Railway Company has in any of the following railway companies: the Ontario and Rainy River Railway Company, the Port Arthur, Duluth and Western Railway Company, the Manitoba and South Eastern Railway Company, the Minnesota and Manitoba Railway Company, the Minnesota and Ontario Bridge Company, the Saskatchewan North Western Railway Company, the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway Company, the Alberta Midland Railway Company, the Edmonton, Yukon and Pacific Railway Company.
2.	What subsidies either in land, money, or by way of guarantee of securities have been granted to any of the railway companies, mentioned on account of the main or branch lines or both, of the said companies, either by the Dominion government, or the provincial governments of Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, or any municipality through which their lines run.
3.	What portion of these subsidies have been earned to date.
4.	How many miles west of Edmonton a line of railway is constructed and in operation by the Canadian Northern Railway Company.
5.	What work other than location survey work has been done west of this point up to date, how much and of what nature.
6.	What portion, if any, will eventually form part of the proposed line to Vancouver.
7.	When the location plan of the route of the Canadian Northern railway between Edmonton and Vancouver, by way of the Yellow Head Pass was approved by the Minister of Railways and the Board of Railway Commissioners.
8.	What applications, if any, have been made since to change or in any way alter this location plan.
9.	To what extent, if any, the government of Manitoba has exercised its right of control of freight rates under section 8 of schedule B of the Act 1 Edward VII., chapter 53.
10.	What effect, if any, this section of said Act has had in reducing freight rates in the province of Manitoba.-Mr. Smith, (Nanaimo.)
For a return showing:
1.	How many derailments have taken place over the Intercolonial railway during the year 1909.
2.	At. what points of the railway each of these derailments took place, and at what dates.
3.	The report made in each case, and the cause or causes mentioned in such report.- Mr. Talbot.

Mr. F. D. MONK (Jacques Cartier) moved:: For a copy of all correspondence between Celestin Present, of Melocbeville, province of Quebec, either personally or through his attorney, and the Department of Railways and Canals, concerning certain bridges on the Beauharnois canal.
He said: On this motion I merely wish to remark now that the Beauharnois canal, having passed into the hands of a company headed by Messrs. McIntyre and Robert, it is claimed that they are not fulfilling the obligations that they assumed at the time to keep the canal in proper order for navigation and to maintain bridges. A number of complaints have been made that bridges are condemned and not repaired, and that in other respects the canal is not kept in the same order or in the state of repair in which it was kept when in the hands of the government. That is the reason I move for these papers. I will discuss the matter more fully when we are considering the estimates.


George Perry Graham: It has perhaps escaped the attention of my hon. friend (Mr. Monk) that in the reply given by me to a question the other day, a categorical answer was given to statements similar to those he has now made. Of course, there is no objection to the motion. But when the papers come down I think it will be found that the contract is being carried out. Certainly the department will see to it that it is carried out.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I was not in the House at the time referred to, but I assume that the minister stated that the purchasers or lessees of the canal were bound to fulfil the same obligations as the government. I presume that was the answer given.


George Perry Graham: More in detail.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: The reason I am asking for the correspondence is to bring to the notice of the House cases of individual hardship at Melocheville and elsewhere, in order that the government may more strenuously insist on the carrying out by the company of its said obligations.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. J. B. BLACK (Hants).: Mr. Speaker, in moving the resolution on the subject of the Intercolonial which stands in my name, I desire, with the approval of my seconder the hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Pickup) and with the consent of the House, to add a sentence to the resolution. With this addition, the resolution will read as follows:
That in the opinion of this House it would be in the best interests of the maritime provinces and for the general good of Canada Mr. MONK.
that the Intercolonial railway be operated and controlled by one of the companies oper-. ating the Canadian Transcontinental lines, or by such other corporation as may offer the best facilities for the development of the country tributary to the Intercolonial.
I add these words because some of my friends have insinuated that I was moving the resolution in the interest of the Canadian Pacific railway and some others have suggested that I was doing it in the interest of the Canadian Northern. I add these words so that we may give everybody that wants to lease the Intercolonial railway an opportunity to lease it. I am perfectly disinterested in this matter. Fortunately or unfortunately I am not acquainted with a single official of the Canadian Northern or with a single official of the Canadian Pacific railway. I represent a county through which the Intercolonial railway runs. My object in moving this resolution is simply to promote the interests of the maritime provinces, wrhose interests lie very near to my heart, for I was born in one of those provinces and have lived for forty-seven years in another. Before going further I may say that I am very sorry that I had arranged to introduce this resolution today. Had I known that the House was to adjourn at six o'clock, I would have left the resolution over. But as I had asked other hon. gentlemen who preceded me on the Order Paper to allow me an opportunity, I shall go on with it. As the time afforded for discussion is short, I shall make my remarks as brief as possible. There are gentlemen in this House who will speak against this resolution, I am sure, who, in their hearts, are in favour of it.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Order.


Judson Burpee Black: I think I am perfectly in order. I think that on this question some of the maritime members are in the same situation as certain representatives of Newfoundland on the question of confederation. Certain interested parties have drilled it into the minds of the people of Newfoundland that confederation with Canada would ruin that colony, and no politician would feel safe in advocating such a union. This question I now bring before the House is a very delicate question for a member who, in advocating it, has to stand in the face of the opposition of his constituents. I, fortunately, from certain circumstances, am in a position-I will not say of indifference -but I am perfectly prepared to advocate the leasing of this road to some company that will make a better use of it than the present commission or any of the managers of the past have been able to do. I regret exceedingly that some of the maritime newspapers, as soon as this order was put on the order paper, went off at half-cock and criticised it and commented on it adversely

without waiting to know the merits of the case. I will quote the evidence from a paper in the maritime provinces, which said:
The leasing of this road would be a confession that the Liberal party is unequal to the task of satisfactorily administering a great public property in the interests of the tax-payers.
So far as the Intercolonial is concerned, I think the sooner the Liberal party makes that confession the better. I Think that, like every other honest confession, it would be good for the soul of the party. There has been no government since confederation that has administered the Intercolonial railway satisfactorily, and there never will be a government that will manage that road in the interest of the country, because it is impossible under the circumstances by which the country is bound. It is impossible that the government can compete with other railways, or that they can adopt modern railway business methods. Now here is another sentence in the same paper:
There are certain Nova Scotia interests which favour the alienation of the Intercolonial.
I suppose that was intended to hit somebody, I do not know who, but it does not hit me at all. But I quite agree with the editorial, that it is in the interest of Nova Scotia to favour the alienation of the Intercolonial, as we will see by and by. Another paper, this time from Moncton, attacked my resolution a litte more vigorously than the paper to which I have referred. It shouts ' Hands off the peoples' railway.' Sir, I have remarked for a great many years that when you couple the name of the people with a corporation or an individual, there is something about the corporation or the individual that wont measure four square all round. I do not care whether you shout the peoples' railway, or the peoples' Jimmy, or the peoples' William, there is always something at the bottom that is not just four square. The people of Moncton, in shouting ' Hands off the peoples' railway,' are very much like those people mentioned in ancient history, who shouted without reason * Great is Diana of the Ephesians,' because they thought their calling was in danger. I think we can safely assure the people of Moncton, that if the Intercolonial is handed over to a private company, their craft will not be in danger, their city will be even more prosperous than it is now. I would like to get at the bottom of this cry about ' The peoples' railway.' What people is it? Who owns the railway? Does Nova Scotia own it any more than British Columbia? Does it belong any more to the people of New Brunswick than it does to
the people of Ontario? Who gets the benefit of it? How much benefit are the people getting from this peoples' railway beyond what they are able to pay for? If any of the people want to travel on the peoples' railway, I think they have to pay about as much as they do on any other railway. If any of the people want to send freight from Montreal to St. John they pay just exactly as much money to the peoples' railway as they pay to the Canadian Pacific railway.
If any person from Halifax, say an invalid who wants to go to Montreal to take the waters, purchases a ticket, he will find that he pays exactly the same price for it over the peoples' railway that he does over the Canadian Pacific railway.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is the hon. gentleman not aware of the fact that there was a return brought down to this House some years ago showing the cost of carrying wheat over that road per mile and over the Canadian Pacific railway and other roads in this country, and it was shown that it cost about one-fourth as much to carry it over the Intercolonial per mile as it did over the other roads?


Judson Burpee Black: I have never read any proof of that assertion. There are many things being said in the House that lack proof.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It is a matter of a return brought down to this House.


Judson Burpee Black: I am not advocating this transfer in the interest of Ontario or of the western wheat growers. Two-thirds of the freight that goes over that road goes east, from which we are getting no advantage whatever. Western drummers come down to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick to solicit orders; their goods come down over the railway, and if there is no reduction in the freight rate, what benefit is it to the people in the maritime provinces? We know that the freight rates and the passenger rates from Montreal to Halifax and St. John are just exactly the same as the rates from Halifax and St. John to Montreal. Furthermore, all the rates are under the control of the Railway Commission. The question of the reduction of rates is a mighty small thing when compared with the want of development of the country through which that railway runs. Forty or fifty years ago a man worked for 75, 80 or 90 cents a day; would that man like to go back to old times and take the small wage he was getting then? This country has gone ahead since the railway was built, we can afford to pay higher wages. The people can afford to pay higher freight rates now than they did before. There is nothing more important to the interests of [DOT] a country than transportation. Transportation lies at the foundation of the commerce and the manufacturers of a country.

You cannot successfully manufacture, you cannot successfully trade, you cannot prosper without adequate transportation. I want to say that we are not getting adequate transportation, we are not getting that development of our country that we should get. The functions of a modern railway, Mr. Speaker, are not merely to carry passengers and freight, a modern railway does much more than that. If you look into the industrial transportation of the United States, you will find that the railways of that country have to a large extent engaged in industrial enterprises, and have at all times lent their aid and assistance to the establishment of industrial enterprises along their lines, and have been the chief actor in the development of many successful industries in the United States. As I have said, the functions of a modern railway are not merely to carry freight and passengers, but they are to make freight, to add to population, to get passengers, to bring in immigrants, to promote industry in the country. A modem railway engages in manufactures, engages in mining


Mr. EMMERSON.: And rebates.


Judson Burpee Black: The hon. gentleman says rebates. He has run a railway, and knows more about it than I do. They engage in shipping, they conduct schools for technical education, they assist in developing the industries of a country. The Intercolonial, I take it for granted, is not doing anything of that kind in the maritime provinces. As a matter of fact not only are our industries, our agriculture, our manufactures. our mines, our immigration not assisted by the Intercolonial railway m the maritime provinces, hut our industries are actually injured, our population is depleted by the Intercolonial railway joining with the Canadian Pacific railway in tas-ing loads of our young men every autumn to the west for almost nothing. Any man knows who lives in the maritime provinces that every autumn thousands of the healthiest, the strongest and the ablest young men are carried by the Intercolonial railway to the nearest connection with the Canadian Pacific railway, and from there transported west.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How would that be remedied by giving the Intercolonial railway over to the Canadian Pacific railway?


Judson Burpee Black: Well, wait until I get through. I am making the statement that the Intercolonial railway, the peoples' railway, is helping to carry the people out of the country. You might not remedy it if the Canadian Pacific railway owned it, and I am not advocating particularly that the Canadian Pacific railway do own it, but what I say is that the Canadian Pacific railway is a private owned railway and it Mr. BLAIN.
is interested in -taking the people out while the government owned railway is helping it to depopulate the maritime provinces. Go into any station from Halifax to Amherst or in New Brunswick and you will see posted inducements to young men to go in immigrant trains at reduced rates or at almost nothing. That is the way the Intercolonial railway is assisting the industry of the maritime provinces. There are very remarkable things done for the people by the peoples' railway. I would like to know how much regard there has been in the prompt dismissal of hundreds of employees without a week's notice. This is the peoples' railway. I would like to know if it is in the interests of the people that the commissioners takes the big stick and threaten a newspaper if it criticise the management. That it will get no more patronage and not only threaten, but carries out the threat. That is the way the peoples' railway is managed for the people. God save us from the peoples' railway.


George Perry Graham: It has turned into a prayer service.


Judson Burpee Black: 
Mr. ROY.: We have.


Judson Burpee Black: My hon. friend (Mr. Roy) knows the beauties of Quebec, and they are great, but I know the beauties of Nova Scotia and they are magnificent. Business methods adopted by a modern railway company would develop the maritime provinces, build up our industries and increase the products of our natural resources. My own belief is that if you hand the Intercolonial over to a first-class company with capital, that that company will within a short time, be bound to expend at least $5,000,000 in the establishment of industries and the erection of hotels in the maritime provinces. Were the Intercolonial handed over to a strong private company, I believe we would see the maritime provinces blossom like the rose. Can the Intercolonial, as it is situated today, engage in any such enterprise? No. They have to come back to parliament for a vote before anything can be done, and just imagine the countenance of the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Haggart) if this House were asked to vote an appropriation to build an hotel in Halifax. I would like to hear what the Conservative members from Ontario and the west would have to say were they asked to vote $100,000 to develop the pulp industries of New Brunswick or to

open up the vast mineral deposits in Nova Scotia. The Intercolonial railway simply cannot do these things. The commission cannot do them if they wanted to. See the circumlocution that has been going on for two years and more about the purchasing of the branch lines as feeders. Two years ago (Mr. Emmerson) introduced the question, and to-day it has not got far enough that it has not to come back to parliament again for ratification, when the commission decide what railways they shall buy, if any. Were the Intercolonial handed over to a private company, that company would do all these things without delay. The present Intercolonial Railway Commissioners not only cannot help the industries of the maritime provinces but in their present state of mind they don't want to. They don't know anything about the needs of the maritime provinces, they are not maritime province men. I think one of them has been imported from Vermont by way of Ontario, and what does he know about the growing necessities and needs of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, or of Quebec? Nothing at all. Are their interests our interests? Is their heart in sympathy with out wants and all we need? Not a hit of it. I say that the present management of the Intercolonial by the commission is the worst we have had for many years, and since the man of brains and the man of ability has gone out and left the commission we will go from bad to worse. I have no hope for it at all. What would Halifax be with a private company owning the Intercolonial, with a line of steamers such as the Canadian Pacific railway are running, say to Liverpool or Glasgow, with a proper line of steamers to take up that splendid opportunity of' trade with the West Indies? What have we got down there now? We are subsidizing Norwegian steamers, if I am not mistaken, to run between Halifax and the West Indies, and I think they are doing the same thing at St. John. Do not misunderstand me, I think that the Thompsons of St. John have a large subsidy for running steamers to the West Indies, but they are handing a large part of that work over to Norwegian steamers. Pickford and Black had a large subsidy for running steamers, such as they are, and they never were much, -down to the West Indies. If I am not incorrectly informed, Norwegian steamers are carrying on the service there. Are we assisting the trade and commerce of the maritime provinces by such things as that? I think not.
I wished to reply to some of the arguments and criticisms of the opponents of this scheme, but I do not think it would be fair to the other gentlemen who desire to speak on this subject. I think I have shown that the Intercolonial railway cannot help us in our industries in the maritime provinces and will not. We have vast Mr. BLACK.
industries there that need developing. Somebody may say: Why do not your Nova Scotians and New Brunswickers do it themselves, they go to Trinidad and Mexico and invest money, why do they not invest in their own country? That is the strange part of human nature. It is so in other countries, it is so in England. It was stated by one of the Rothschilds not long ago that for investments outside of England, any quantity of money could be raised, but for investments in England it was almost impossible to raise any. I presume it is a case of:
Par off fowls ha'e feathers fair,
An' aye until ye try them.
The great cry on the part of the people's railway is the reduced freights, and the claim that if the company had the road, freights would go up. Every one knows that the freight rates are not left entirely to the railway companies, that they are controlled by the permanent railway commission and that a railroad cannot charge whatever it pleases. For my own part I believe that if this road was handed; over to a company the increase in industries and the development of the undeveloped possibilities of the maritime provinces would be such that we could afford to pay higher rates, but I do not believe we would have to pay higher rates.
I beg to move the resolution standing in my name.


Mr. D. H.: McALISTER (Kings and Albert, N. B.) I seldom encroach on the time of the House by making a speech, but as this resolution concerns the people whom I represent I think it my duty to say a few words upon it. Public sentiment in the contituency I have the honour to represent, is absolutely opposed to such a course, and I must confess that I am opposed to this resolution. Furthermore I am really surprised that a resolution of this description should ever "Be introduced in this House by a maritime province member.


Judson Burpee Black: I dare say.


Mr. McALISTER.: If it had been introduced by a member from the west or from the, Yukon district the matter might be explained. I do not believe the government have any mandate to get rid of the Intercolonial railway. They have no right either directly or indirectly through the Department of Railways to lease that road to a private company or syndicate. If this government should take it to be their duty to do so and declare that to be their policy, they should dissolve this House and go before the people to secure their verdict. I am quite sure that if they did so, the members supporting this government from the beautiful little provinces down by the sea would be minus.

Their number would be very different from what it is to-day. If I went before the people of my constituency advocating this resolution, I would not get 1,000 votes from the beautiful united constituency of Kings and Albert.
I would like to read a few newspaper clippings in regard to the Intercolonial railway being handed over to a private syndicate or company. The first is from the Toronto 'Globe1 and purports to be the words of Mr. Kobert Meighen, president of the Lake of the Woods Milling Company. It reads:
I would not stand for the control of the Intercolonial railway being given to any corporation. I don't care whether it is the Canadian Pacific railway, of which I am a director, the Grand Trunk, or Mackenzie & Mann, I think it would he wrong. I could give my reasons, but as a railway director perhaps I had better not.
Another business man of Montreal says:
If it goes into the hands of Mackenzie & Mann or any other company there will be a revolution in the maritime provinces. I spent 25 years there, and I know the feeling such a step would arouse.
The Moncton 'Transcript' quotes from the Toronto 'World', a paper also of some account saying:
The 'World' takes up the question not only in behalf of the maritime provinces, but from the standpoint of the people generally. Replying to those who have been crying out against the Intercolonial, it says:
We have ust two things to say to these ex ploiters-and they are exnloiters for themselves pure and simple:
First, the Intercolonial is owned by the people of Canada at large, noc by the people of the maritime provinces as such; that they've put their good eighty millions of dollars in it, both because they engaged to build it as a pare of the pact of confederation, and because they see that it is or can certainly be made a substantial check on the other roads, and, in an emergency, of the supremest importance to Canada as a state and as a part of the British empire
There have been a great many fallacies in regard to the Intercolonial railway, and one of the greatest of these is that the deficits have been due to party political causes. If that be the case, what caused the surplus when the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Emmerson) was Minister of Railways and Canals? If the deficit in 1907 was due to .party political causes, what caused the expansion of its revenues nearly threefold since 1907? No doubt the management of the Intercolonial railway has been defective in many respects, but it is equally undoubted that it has become considerably improved since this commission has had control. I am sorry to find my hon. friend (Mr. Black) jump on the Intercolonial railway commission before that commission has had the opportunity to submit a report of its administration and before, therefore, he is in a position to know what it is doing. I think he should have waited until its re-iptort was submitted (before making his criticism. As regards the resignation of Mr. Butler, that is an event which we all must regret. From what I have known of Mr. Butler's control, he has always conducted the affairs of the Intercolonial railway from a perfectly fair and nonpolitical standpoint; but while I agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Black) that the resignation of Mr. Butler will cripple the commission to a certain extent, I cannot go the length which the hon. gentleman did. I think that if Mr. Pottinger had been allowed the same free hand some years ago the Intercolonial railway would have shown in all probability different results.
No doubt that railway has cost the people of Canada some $80,000,000, but in return we have a valuable asset; and the best proof of the value of that asset is the fact that a number of private corporations are doing their best to get hold of it. In my opinion, a good many of the reports we read about that railway are sprung by individuals who are anxious to get control. It would be very unfair to the people of Canada if, after they had met the deficits on the Intercolonial all those years, they should now, when it has a good chance to make a profitable showing, be induced to hand it over to some private individuals. The maritime provinces are to-day on the eve of a great commercial development. Our new Canadian navy, if we should decide to have one, will no doubt be built at St. John and Halifax and will no doubt start a boom in the maritime provinces, and add considerably to the traffic of the Intercolonial railway. In mining and shipbuilding, I look to see a great increase in the near future, and I have no doubt that those shrewd individuals who are trying to get control of the Intercolonial railway are doing so in anticipation of this turn of the tide. But when people talk of what the Intercolonial railway has cost the country, if they will figure out the land grant of the Canadian Pacific at one dollar an acre they will find that that railway has cost the people considerable more than $80,000,000, and yet the people down by the sea have never complained. Then take the enormous sums that have been expended on our canals, and we have suggestions made for millions more of canal expenditure in the near future. So that if the Intercolonial railway has not been a paying proposition so far, neither have our canals. The policy of the government regarding canals is that of free tolls, so that if you add the interest on the ex-

penditure to the annual cost of maintenance and operation you will find that the amount we have spent on our canals is enormous. Yet the people of the maritime provinces do not complain. They realize that the people who use the canals are getting the benefit, and in the same way the people who use the Intercolonial rail-wav are reaping the advantage. We often hear the Canadian Pacific railway held up as a shining light in comparison with the Intercolonial railway. Weil, no one doubts that the Canadian Pacific is a well organized and a well managed road, but I am going to give you some figures showing the rates charged on the Canadian Pacific railway and the Intercolonial railway which may perhaps cause some people to reflect. There are ten classifications in tariff rates on the Canadian Pacific railway, and from St. John to Woodstock, N.B., a distance of 137 miles, the ten classifications are per 100 lbs. as follows:
No. 1, 10 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 2, 35 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 3, 30 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 4, 25 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 5, 20 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 6, 18 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 7, 15 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 8, 16 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 9, 16 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 10, 13 cents per 100 lbs.
While for the same distance, St. John to Amherst, N.S., the Intercolonial railway charges as follows:
No. 1, 29 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 2, 26 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 3, 22 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 4, 18 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 5, 15 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 6, 14 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 7, 11 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 8, 12 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 9, 11 cents per 100 lbs.
No. 10, 9 cents per 100 lbs.
Taking another point, St. John to Perth Jet., a distance of 184 miles, the Canadian Pacific charges: .42 .37 .32 .26 .21 .19 .17 .17 .17 .15, while from St. John to Wentworth the	same mileage,	the Intercolonialcharges: .33 .29 .26 .21 .17 .16 .14 .14 .12 .11. Just one more case, St. John to -St. Leonards, a distance of 223 miles, the Canadian Pacific charges: .48 .42 .36 .30 .24 .22 .18 .19	.19 .16, while	the	Intercolonialcharges, St. John to Brookfield, N.S., the same mileage:	.36 .32 .27 .23 .18 .16 .14 .15
.14 .12.
These figures show that from St. John to Amherst, which is exactly the same distance as from St. John to Woodstock, the people pay 38 per cent higher freight rates on the Canadian Pacific railway than they do on the Intercolonial railway. This is a matter which ought to be seriously considered bv the hon. gentleman who Mr. McAlister.
presented the resolution we are now discussing. Does he really think that any private company would build these beautiful hotels he sneaks of to develop this great province of Nova Scotia? No, Sir, such companies aTe looking out for themselves, whereas the government is looking out for the development of the whole country. Does he think that if a private company owned the Intercolonial railway it would haul coal as cheaply from the coal mines of Nova Scotia as the Intercolonial railway does?


Judson Burpee Black: A great part of that coal is hauled by water.


Duncan Hamilton McAlister: My hon. friend knows that the sale or lease of the Intercolonial railway to a private corporation would cause great loss and inconvenience to the large industrial plants in Sydney and other points in Nova Scotia. It seems to me that the object of this resolution is to induce the government to give over $80,000,000 worth of railway to a private corporation without a quid pto quo. and would make the rich richer and the poor poorer. What is wanted in the maritime provinces is population, and those who are advocating the sale of the Intercolonial railway would do much better by urging on this government and the local government of Nova Scotia a more energetic immigration policy as regards that province. What we require is not to get rid of the Intercolonial, but to bring in a larger immigration.
There is_ one thing I have not spoken of and that is the accommodation we get by the Intercolonial railway. Members from the west do not appreciate this, but if they lived along the Intercolonial they would. I may say that in the little town of Sussex where I live, we have an express train that leaves every day for St. John, stopping at every station, and returning the same day, and that service is just as good as any street car service you can find in any city. I would like to ask the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Black) if he thinks we would continue to enjoy that luxury if the Intercolonial was handed over to a private corporation. I do not think so. If the- Intercolonial had been charging the same rates last year in the province of New Brunswick as the Canadian Pacific railway, we would have had to pay $1,874,878 more for freight, and $120,331 more for passenger rates. If we had paid the same rates on the Intercolonial as are charged by the Canadian Pacific railway in New Brunswick last year, we would be $2,000,000 out of pocket. That is a question that needs to be seriously considered. I am surprised at this hon. gentleman advocating the lease or sale of the Intercolonial. I travelled through my constituency last fall during an election

campaign, and in almost every farm yard I saw Massey Harris machines, a Massey Harris reaper, a Massey Harris mower, and what doe3 that mean? It means that the people in the lower provinces are netting the advantage of cheap freight rates on their agricultural machinery that comes from Ontario. Now, I do not think we should denounce a railway that procures us these favours, but we should rather encourage it. To be sure the purchaser of this machinery paid the freight rates, but he g<?ts them cheaper on the Intercolonial than by the Canadian Pacific railway, that is a known fact. Now, the freight trains per train ton per mile last year on the four principal railways of Canada were as follows : Canadian Pacific railway, -778; Grand Trunk railway, -672; Canadian Northern, [DOT]873; Intercolonial, -584. The Intercolonial, therefore, carries freight much cheaper than the other roads, and the people who pay for the freight get that much advantage over people shipping by the other roads. It is the people who use the goods, of course, who ultimately pay the freight, but the people of Canada as a whole get the advantage of the cheap freight rates over the Intercolonial, just a3 they get the advantage of free tolls over the canals. I am sure there are other gentlemen from the maritime provinces who will oppose this motion of the hon.member for Hants; if they do not I should be ashamed of them. I think the hon. member for Hants would have been better advised if he had supported the motion moved the other day by the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Emmerson) in favour of the Intercolonial acquiring the branch lines in close proximity to it. I think that policy would prove an additional source of revenue to the Intercolonial, and it would enable the management to reduce the freight rates on the branch lines. Very few people, I think, realize the fact that goods shipped to western points are not shipped over the Intercolonial, but over the Canadian Pacific railway, and if these branch lines were absorbed by the Intercolonial, there would be much less cause of complaint on the part of local shippers.


Mr. S. W. W. PICKUP (Annapolis).: The resolution introduced by the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Black) is one of great interest to the maritime provinces. The question is whether it would be advantageous to the maritime provinces to have the Intercolonial railway continue under the present management, or to hand it over to the control of one of the great railway companies. It is to be remembered that the Intercolonial railway was undertaken for political purposes as well as for the interchange of products and people between the maritime provinces and 74
the western provinces. It has been a great success in all these purposes, though the balance has not always been on the right side. But the districts served had the advantage of cheap rates and excellent service. Towns have sprung up along the line, which have afforded considerable trade, and the road itself has afforded excellent transportation facilities for the manufactured products of Ontario and Quebec, of which the maritime provinces are large consumers. The object for which the road was undertaken has been met, and now the question arises whether it would not be better to develop the natural resources of the maritime provinces by giving the road over to the control of one of the transcontinental railways, whose policy we know to be the acquisition of branch lines, the extension of existing lines, and the construction of new lines in any district where they are required for the development of trade and the natural resources of the district.
Some Quebec and Ontario papers have made the statement that the maritime provinces are the dead ends of the Dominion. This is not a fact. I would like to call the attention of the House to_ the great natural resources of the maritime provinces in agriculture, fisheries, minerals, forests, timber and water-power, all of which need development. The federal government and capitalists have been devoting much attention to developing the natural resources of the great western provinces, building up cities on the plains and on the Pacific coast, improving canals and building railways, so as to bring their products to the markets of the world. This is a commendable project, and the government are doing it well. But our eastern provinces should not be neglected, and if capital and population can be induced to go to the maritime provinces some effort should be made in that direction. The maritime provinces furnish their proportion to the fisheries of Canada, which are almost inexhaustible around our shores. If these fisheries were properly organized, and the best methods were adopted of catching, packing, canning and marketing the fish, they would be great wealth producers. Our forests are timbered with woods of good commercial value, both for manufacturing and building purposes. We have pulp wood in considerable quantities, fair water-powers, coal, iron and gold in abundance. Gypsum and limestone are to be found in all the! maritime provinces, and with capital and population, there is no reason why they should not become one of the great industrial centres of Canada.
At one time the maritime provinces owned and controlled the largest amount of shipping, according to population, of any country in the world. In 1874 they built 183,000



tons, and the total number of tons registered in Canada at that time was 1,634,330, nearly as much as Great Britain, which had 1,896,000 tons. The maritime provinces built the largest and best ships, and assisted in doing the carrying trade of the world. There is no reason why this history should not repeat itself, and by the organization of two or three iron and steel ship building plants, ship; building in the maritime provinces might be revived. Judging by the past, our people are eminently fitted for the construction and management of shipping, and have been exceedingly successful. Every facility and encouragement should be afforded to the people of the maritime provinces to enable them successfully to carry on their business, and to afford them the necessary transportation facilities. Our manufacturing in the maritime provinces is confined to a few towns that are good distributing centres and have good service and cheap rates. In the great provinces of Ontario and Quebec there are many manufacturing towns. Their people are no more intelligent, have no better business ability, and their natural resources are not greater than are those in the maritime provinces. But they have better transportation facilities. Two or three lines of railway pass through a great many of the towns, and afford excellent facilities for the transportation of their products to market at reasonable rates. But in the maritime provinces our products have to pass over two or three lines of railway before they reach the markets, and from over the branch and trunk lines, and we have to pay from twenty to thirty per cent higher over these branch lines than is charged over the main line. This is unfair to the people of the maritime provinces, who have to contribute to the construction of these roads, and it is unjust that they should be compelled to pay a toll in excess of that charged in other parts of Canada. If these branch lines were consolidated and under the control of one of the Transcontinental railways, they would be operated more cheaply, give a more efficient service, and at the same or less cost than at present.
At the time of confederation, there was an agreement to build a railroad from Truro, in the province of Nova Scotia, to Riviere du Loup, in the province of Quebec, for the general advantage of Canada. It was extended to St. John and Halifax for the purpose of extending the trade of the country, affording facilities for the ports of the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. It was further extended to Sydney and Cape Breton by acquiring the eastern extension, and the government concluded that it should be further extended to Levis and Montreal, and they acquired the Drummond line and also rights over the Grand Mr. PICKUP.
Trunk railway to Montreal. The province of Nova Scotia built a line between Pictou and Oxford Junction which became part of the Intercolonial railway, as also did the Canada Eastern. It seems that the government, recognizing the importance of taking over branch lines in the interest of the people and also building up the Intercolonial railway, found that it was good busit ness in the interest of both. Last year the government appointed a commission todook into the branch lines of the Intercolonial railway, and I have their report which gives the physical conditions of the roads, and also recommendations showing the advantage those roads will afford to the Intercolonial railway, and their importance in the development of the natural resources of the districts through which they run, if taken over by the Intercolonial railway. Two paragraphs of the report are as follows:
The want of proper facilities for the conduct of even the existing traffic is detrimentally affecting the business interests of the districts interested in these branches, and preventing that development of industries, enhancement of property values, and general betterment that would undoubtedly
follow on an improved service.
***##*#
It is a well established fact that in nearly every case where branch lines have been absorbed by trunk lines, and extended markets have thus been opened up for business along the main line, such a policy has not only proved to be of great value to the branch lines themselves, but has provided additional revenue for the main line, they becoming valuable feeders, increasing the traffic and the earning powers of the trunk lines.
I have failed to find any report of the largest and most important branch line that would be a feeder to the Intercolonial railway. I refer to the Dominion Atlantic railway in the province of Nova Scotia, running through some of the best portions of Canada, including the famous ' Land of Evangeline,' which attracts thousands of tourists. This line runs between Halifax and Yarmouth, through the counties of Hants, Kings, Annapolis, Digby and Yarmouth, a distance of 217 miles, with a branch between Truro, in the county of Colchester, and Windsor, in the county of Hants, a distance of 584 miles, the Cornwallis Valley road, from Kentville to Kingsport, 144 miles, and Tor Brook line into the mines, 34 miles, making in all 2924 miles, including the Windsor Junction branch which is under lease from the Dominion government, and running rights between Windsor Junction and Halifax, 144 miles, and 4} miles of branch lines and spurs. Besides the counties named, this road serves to a less extent, the counties of Lunenburg, Shelburne and Queens, with a population of 260,385 people according to the census of 1901. The road is equipped

23 IS
and does a large business. For the year ending June 30, 1907, it shows net earnings of $280,586 on total of $778,572. Few roads in Canada can make as good a showing. The Dominion Atlantic railway earned $380,158 in passenger service and $398,414 from freight service in 1907, the highest -proportion of passenger traffic of- any road in Canada. This road would be valuable to one of the transcontinental railways, as the shortest, most direct and quickest means of communication between the west and Great Britain. By establishing a car ferry, running across the Bay of Fundy, 40 miles to Port Wade, and thence by rail to Halifax, 159 miles, it would afford the quickest route to deliver the passengers, mails and express parcels to Great Britain from the west, besides being valuable in directing passenger and freight traffic from the United States through Digby and Yarmouth. Also, the Halifax and Southwestern between Halifax and Yarmouth is also capable of very great development. New roads should be constructed in Inverness, Guysborough and the eastern part of the province. If these were consolidated and' acquired by one of the transcontinental' roads, with the condition and agreement that they take over the branch lines existing and construct new lines, no hardship would be involved, as this is in accord with their present policy. They should also find capital to develop the natural resources of the maritime provinces. By1 building hotels, developing mines, manufacturing and other resources, which is their policy, they would greatly promote their own interest.
Under the supervision of the Railway Commission, I believe it would be in the best interest of the maritime provinces and! the districts through which the system runs, to have the Intercolonial railway^ under the control and management of one of the transcontinental roads.


Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (Cape Breton North).: Had I known that so many hon. members wished to express their views upon this subject, I do not know that I should have come to any determination to speak upon it. But it is not often that a subject presents itself in the House that gives an opportunity to a representative from away down in the eastern part where I live an opportunity of dealing with matters of vital importance to his own part of the country. That being the case, I am pleased to take advantage of this opportunity to say something along the lines of the development of the country served by the Intercolonial or some other road that will or may take its place. It is a well-known fact that there is only room for one main line of railway in the province of Nova Scotia, particularly in the eastern part. We differ in this regard from Quebec, Ontario and the 744
wider fields of the west, where almost any number of roads can parallel one another with ample room and plenty of trade for all. In the comparatively narrow peninsula of Nova Scotia, with one main line stretching along that country, there is no room for another line to parallel it. East of Amherst you cannot be more than fifty miles from the sea at any point. That fact shows that the territory is comparatively narrow, and, with the industries we have, it will readily be admitted that we have not more than will satisfactorily feed one great line of railway. That being the case, we are dependent largely on the way the Intercolonial railway, which is now there, conducts itself in the way of the extension of its branches and in its management of the business within the scope of the road as now located. My great trouble, and the trouble of my people, is not so much with the management of the Intercolonial railway as with the extent of it. If we had more Intercolonial railway we should have very little fault to find. But our difficulty is that the Intercolonial railway does not stretch itself along the country rapidly enough. If it is the pronounced policy of the government, if we are to understand from the government and the Minister of Railways that they have gone as far as they intend to go, that they have reached their limit, that they do not propose to make any further extension to reach out into the territories where we have no railways, I would at once fall in line with the resolution of the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Black) and say:	Take away this management and
give us something else, with the hope that that something else will do better than the Intercolonial railway is doing. I may briefly describe to the government and the Minister of Railways the history of Intercolonial extension so far as Nova Scotia is concerned. It was not the Intercolonial that built from New Glasgow to the Strait of Canso, though the road thus built became a part of the Intercolonial after a few years. The prophecy was then made that the traffic of that part of the Toad would not pay for grease for the axles, that it would be a dead failure. It was, on the contrary, a great success as a railway enterprise and is a most profitable part of the Intercolonial. It was operated for about ten years before it was extended further. We in the beautiful island of Cape Breton may be excused if we thought it long because for those ten years the road was allowed to stand at the Strait of Canso _ and we had not a foot of railway on the" island of Cape Breton. After ten years the road was extended from the Strait of Canso to the city of Sydney, then the town of Sydney, with a branch to North Sydney, where I myself reside. What is the history of this road in the Island of Cane Breton? I venture to say that there is not another section
[DOT]2319

[DOT]of the Intercolonial that has such a magnificent traffic as that of this section.
I can point to one company that last year paid no less than $160,000 in cash for the handling of their freight traffic, without making any mention of the passenger traffic on that road. When I talk about extensions into the island of Cape Breton I have something substantial to talk about. We have had the main extension into the island since 1892. Since then great developments have arisen in the island. We have to-day the greatest industries of the kind, I presume, in the whole of Canada, in the island of Cape Breton. All of them were organized since the days of the extension of the Intercolonial railway. I do not say that the Intercolonial railway is entitled to all the credit, but it was of course a great factor in bringing about the important industries that we have to-day. The hon. member for Hants (Mr. Black) has made reference to Mr. Butler leaving the management of the Intercolonial railway. When Mr. Butler left the government employ he left what is regarded as a very lucrative position. The government could not afford to pay him any more money, but I think that when four times the amount he was receiving from the government is paid to him by one small company in Cape Breton, from which I come, it gives me some strength when I ask that some money be expended in the further development of this great island of Cape Breton. The principal resources that are n<jvv being developed are those of coal and iron. The develop-[DOT]rnent of iron has given rise to the development of other resources; it has given value -to other minerals which before that time had really no-value at all. Take, for instance, the matter of limestone. As a rule *we do not regard limestone as a very valuable asset, but to-day in Cape Breton it is a most valuable asset and will from time to time become more valuable until perhaps ten or twenty years from to-day we will have to import it or pay a very high price for it within a range of fifty or sixty miles from the steel works, because such large quantities are required as a flux in the production of iron and steel. We have in the county of Victoria, which I have the honour to represent, large deposits of this material. We have large deposits of iron ore and we have large areas of timber which are required in connection with these great industries but none of which can be made readily available without the extension of the Intercolonial railway. I appeal to the government and I appeal to this House with confidence, because I know they will not allow the paltry amount of the few thousand, or the few hundred thousand dollars that may be necessary for the development of the country, to stand in the way, especially when we put forward the Mr. McKenzie.
successful results of the expenditure to extend the Intercolonial railway into a certain section of the country and when we show that with the proper development of the materials that exist in other sections of the country similar results will follow. It has been brought out in this House that we buy our fish at two prices in Ontario and other western provinces, in Quebec, and even amongst ourselves at certain seasons of the year and that we have to buy fish that has gone around by Boston and other United States cities and come back to us. It is a most extraordinary state of affairs and one which you could hardly make a stranger believe. Notwithstanding, such is the case. What is the difficulty? The difficulty is that we have not facilities for catching the fish in our own country. Take for instance, a part of my own riding of Victoria; We have on the eastern coast of that county about seventy miles of the best fishing grounds that we have in any part of the maritime provinces and, when you compare any fishing grounds in the maritime provinces you are comparing them with the best fishing grounds in the world. But the difficulty is that for thirty-four miles of that distance of seventy miles there is not a single harbour that you can approach with safety in a storm. What is the result? The fisherman will not go out if he finds any prospect that he cannot get back. If he sees a storm coming on and if he has to face the rocks and there is no harbour for which he can steer his craft he will not go out in the morning at all because the safety of himself and his property and the security and support of his family are of greater importance to him than any money he might make upon any certain day and therefore he stays at home. If we had a railway along that coast and if we had a few hundred thousand dollars expended in opening a few of the harbours that are almost finished now we could every day go out and fish because we would know that we had a haven that we could steer for any time a storm might come up. That condition is not only true in my own county but it is also true as respects Guys-borough, Inverness and Richmond. When we are talking about stretching out the arms of the Intercolonial railway, we are asking them either to let us take our chances with some other company or let the government look carefully into this thing and no longer stand still but extend its branches into different parts where it is necessary. I pointed out a moment ago that we had only really one great railway in Nova Scotia. If these branches are not built by the Intercolonial railway no company will build them. No company except the Intercolonial railway would build them because the lines would be too short and it would not pay. We have a sample of that in the

small railway that was built from the Strait of Canso to St. Peters. It is too short a line to pay without connection with the larger system. Therefore, we must ask the main system to build branches, whether that main system be owned by the government, or whether some company takes the place of the government. Sometimes, when we from the maritime provinces, representing these large counties and these large interests, prevail upon the Minister of Finance to help the fishermen with a landing or in other matters along the same line we are criticised unfairly by hon. gentlemen of the opposition when we get this money on the ground that we have obtained it not .for the development of the country but with some other motive, and that it is squandered and used for election purposes and no other purposes whatever. I think I can say here with the greatest boldness that in the province of Nova Scotia and particularly in that part known as the island of Cape Breton I will challenge any man in this House or out of it to show where one dollar of any money that has been voted for the last thirteen years has been mis-spent or squandered in any section of the country. We have a most vigilant opposition. I have sat in this House for a little while and I have watched its proceedings. Not one of these vigilant and energetic searchers out of trouble has put his finger on one dollar that has been spent improperly in connection with public works in Cape Breton or Nova Scotia.


Mr. DANIEL.: I would like to ask the hon. member whether it was absolutely necessary in the interest of good government to have all those fishery commissioners appointed in the hon. gentleman's own constituency just before the last election?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I certainly say that in so far as I know they were appointed in the interest of the fishery protection. It shows the extremities to which people are dr',' en in endeavouring to find fault with any expenditure in that province that they hi vp to come down to the paltry question of whether in the whole of the large county of Victoria, with a coast line, including the inland waters, of something over 150 miles, there were too manv fishery inspectors or not. With all this coast line, with the streams and creeks which require protection, with the northern part of Cape Bieton which is in my riding also extending to the Gulf of St. Lawrence and with the inland waters of the Bras d'Or lakes, there happened to be in that year ten guardians in the whole of those two counties more than there had been for the last ten years. It is mentioned to-day as a ereat scandal that these ten have been appointed, but I believe that they have rendered
valuable service to the country and I think it was found necessary to reappoint them last year notwithstanding the severe criticism in the press and in the House.
I have no desire to appoint too many guardians, but if the hon. gentleman ever exercised patronage in any county he represented he will know that ten times as many people will be looking for a position as can be appointed. It is not an easy matter for the member to tell the exact number that will be required, but he can send the applicants to the inspector and if he takes them on well and good. That is what has happened in my county, and if there is anything wrong about it it is a thing that happens in the greater part of Canada where a member is called upon to exercise patronage. It would appear that this is the only criticism of a public expenditure in the last 13 years in the whole province of Nova Scotia and possibly in the maritime provinces at large, that the hon. member has to make.
My purpose in rising Mr. Speaker, was to bring to the attention of the government and the House the disabilities we labour under in the island of Cape Breton and in the county of Guysboro -which may be called the non-railway counties. I submit that it is up to the government now to extend the Intercolonial railway into these counties, and if the government does not do so then it should induce some other concern to take hold of the railway on condition that that other concern will engage in that development which the government does not think it advisable to undertake. That is my position in this matter. When wre from the maritime provinces seek for the expenditure of public money to develop our country and to assist our fishermen and agriculturists and miners, we do desire to have the sympathy of members of the opposition as I think we should have it. We are proud to assent in public moneys being expended for the development of the far west. The-farmers of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, have abundance of wheat but it is of little value to them unless they have-a railway to take it to the markets and' the same is true of the farmers and fishermen of Nova Scotia. The fishermen may-have abundance of fish but if he cannot-transport it to the market regularly it is of no use to him. We all concede that the farmers of the west should have facilities for transporting their abundance of wheat, and the same is equally applicable to the farmer, fisherman, and the miner in the east who must have transportation facilities if he is to reap the reward of his industry. We have a most excellent market for almost everything the farmer or fisherman can produce on the island of Cape Breton, but we have no system of regular

transportation. The hotel keeper must know that a supply of fish and eggs and other products will be at his disposal regularly every day, and while the man in the northern part of the county of Victoria may have abundance of these things, yet he cannot guarantee a regular supply to the hotel keeper, and the hotel keeper cannot deal with him. He wants a railway by which we can be assured that day after day when we put the products of our fisheries and our farms on board the train they will be delivered at the market on schedule time. It is for the lack of such facilities that our people are suffering. I shall not commit myself one way or the other upon this resolution. I simply say to the government that the position we take in my county is that we are perfectly satisfied with the Intercolonial railway provided we get enough of it and provided it is extended into districts where we have no railroads now. My hon. friend from Hants exclaimed: God save us from the peoples' railway, and if we are not to have railway facilities provided by the government we would almost be inclined to join with him in calling on some higher power io remove that dog-in-the-manger policy, and to seek some means which will assist in the development of the industries of our country.


Mr.  F. B.@: CARVELL (Carleton, N. B.) I have so little time at my disposal that necessarily I shall have to make my remarks brief. I have listened with considerable interest to the hon. member (Mr. McKenzie) and I would much rather he had come out straight and declared whether he was in favour of the resolution or opposed to it than that he should take the middle course as he has done.


An hon. MEMBER.: He is foxy.


Mr. CARVELL.: He is. However, there is no uncertain sound about the statement of the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Black) because he openly declares he is in favour of placing the Intercolonial in the hands of seme company-he does not say which, but from his remarks I should judge he has no choice. We know very well there are only three large corporations in Canada which can take the Intercolonial over, the Canadian Pacific railway, the Grand Trunk railway or the Canadian Northern railway, and if the Intercolonial were disposed of to any company it must be one of these.


Judson Burpee Black: Some other company might be born.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Not in our day.


Judson Burpee Black: I think so.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I have not time to discuss this question along the lines as to whether the correct policy is now being pursued Mr. MCKENZIE.
with .reference to the Intercolonial railway, and I am sorry indeed that before this discussion came up we have not had one full year or even two years of the results of the present Board of Management. I am not now in a position to judge whether the Board of Management has made good or not. I have been told there is a possibility of a fair surplus in the operations of this year, and if that be true then they have done better than the old management in some past years. I think, however, I am safe in saying that the Intercolonial is not managed along the very best possible lines. I believe there is room for improvement, but after all that is not an argument why this property of the people should be taken away , from the people and handed over to some one else. It is rather amusing to me. and I say it advisedly, to hear hon. members, who live on the line of the Intercolonial, grumbling in parliament because they have not proper facilities for transportation. I would like to see my hon. friend from Hants (Mr. Black) and my hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. McKenzie) living on the Canadian Pacific railway at any portion of it where they control the transportation without opposition, or, alongside the Grand Trunk, or alongside the Canadian Northern under similar conditions, and I would like them then to compare what they would be getting with what they are getting from the Intercolonial railway. I have no hesitation in saying that to my mind-and this is a strong statement-the greatest reform that is required along the line of the Intercolonial is to reduce the number of trains by about one-third, which necessarily means a reduction of employees. I can say this because I have no electors on the Intercolonial. I have, I think, one solitary constituent who occupies a position on that line. I have never asked, and never intend to ask to have my people put on the Intercolonial railway, which does not come within sixty miles of my constituency. I have no interest in the Intercolonial railway at all, and I can discuss this question perhaps with as free a mind as any member of this House and yet I live near enough to it to have some practical knowledge of its workings. While the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Black) was speaking to-day I looked up some of the accommodation they are getting along the Intercolonial as compared with what is furnished by the Canadian Pacific railway. From Halifax to Truro, even in this winter season, they have seven trains a day each way, and in the summer, up till last year, they had eight trains a day each way. From Truro to Moncton, which is not through such a very important territory, they have six trains each way. From Moncton to St. John they have six trains all the way, and seven trains from Sussex. At the other end of the line, from Montreal to Levis, they have
three trains a day five days in the week, and four trains on Saturday; from Levis tc Riviere du Loup, four trains every day, and five trains on Saturday. From Campbellton to Moncton, four trains a day each way.


George Perry Graham: That is better than the main line of the Grand Trunk railway.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Better, I believe, than any other portion of the Dominion of Canada possessing the same business and population. I cannot very well compare Nova Scotia because that is all Intercolonial railway, but if you take the Annapolis Valley, which is served by the Dominion Atlantic, I am told they have two through trains each way per day, yet the territory from Yarmouth to Halifax produces more agricultural produce than all the rest of Nova Scotia put together, and has more people per mile than any other part of Nova Scotia. My hon. friend says we must have four or five trains everywhere the Intercolonial railway runs. Then take my side of the province of New Brunswick, with only the Canadian Pacific railway. We produce more agricultural products in Carleton county, and I think we export more, than all the rest of New Brunswick put together. I can certainly say that the four upper counties of New Brunswick export more agricultural produce than all the rest of that province. We have more people, more traffic, more business, than any other portion of New Brunswick, but from the town of Woodstock to St. John we have only two trains a day and one of these is an accommodation. From the town of Woodstock north to Edmundston, 112 miles, through the garden of New Brunswick, we have only one express train a day and a freight that will sometimes carry passengers and sometimes will not. That is the accommodation you get on a company-owned railway. Take the Canadian Pacific railway on the north shore of the province of Quebec. There are three through trains per day from Montreal to Quebec on the north shore of the river and a few local trains in addition. On the southern side of the St. Lawrence, which is certainly no more important and has no greater traffic and no more population, you have three through trains per day on the Intercolonial railway and,- I presume, two or three more on the Grand Trunk railway. I mention this to show wherever the Intercolonial railway runs you have about twice the accommodation you have on company-owned roads or you have, a kick about it. I may be talking plainly, but it is necessary for somebody from the maritime provinces or from near the Intercolonial railway to talk in this way.


Mr. TURRIFF.: If these are the facts of the case why not cut off a number of these trains and make the railway come nearer paying expenses?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: That is what I am talking about. My hon. friend from Kings and Albert (Mr. McAlister) discussed the freight situation so carefully that I think I could not improve on what he said, but let any gentleman in this House or any business man in Canada investigate for himself and see if every word he said in regard to freight rates is not true. Within the last month I had occasion to send a piece of machinery from Ottawa to Woodstock, in connection with a Company in which I have an interest. We paid $68 freight on that piece of machinery, or 68 cents a hundred I found that I could have sent that same piece of machinery the same number o: miles on the Intercolonial railway for $50, a saving of $18 on that one piece of machinery. I could have sent it to St. John by Canadian Pacific railway, a distance of 45 miles further than to Woodstock, for $56, or a saving of $12. I admit that this is because St. John is a competing point, but St. John is a competing point because of tne existence of the Intercolonial railway. If you hand the Intercolonial railway over to the Canadian Pacific railway, then instead of paying $68 as I did you would pay about $75. because they would add on the other 45 miles to St. John. It is well enough for hon. gentlemen on the Intercolonial railway to talk glibly about passing over this great heritage that belongs to the people to a private company. It was, as I said, a pact entered into by the rest of Canada with the people of the maritime provinces in entering confederation. It is a great transportation route without which confederation never could have been brought about, because without the Intercolonial railway the maritime provinces never would have entered into confederation. I ask these gentlemen to be careful to consider the interest of their people before handing over such a means of communication and such a rate controller as this, into the hands of a grasping corporation-because all corporations are alike when it comes to making money, they will all charge every dollar they can, and if you hand this road over to any corporation in Canada you will find that the rates will go up until they are exactly on a par with tne rates of the Canadian Pacific railway or the Grand Trunk railway. Hon. gentlemen say that the Railway Commission can control this. Assume that this road gets into the hands of the Canadian Northern. Does not the commission control the rates on the Canadian Pacific railway and the Grand Trunk railway, and have they reduced them any? Would they reduce the rates on the Canadian Northern from Halifax to Montreal any lower than the rates for the same distance on the Canadian Pacific railway or the Grand Trunk railway? It is no use talking nonsense like this, but

I want to ask these hon. gentlemen to face these things as they are. I am willing to admit that it is hard for a government, municipality or any public body to operate a public utility as cheaply as a corporation can, but I repeat that so far as the maritime provinces are concerned, if we want to be true to ourselves, and I have not much use for the man who is not true to himself we must stand by this railway, which is keeping the freight rates down to some kind of a living rate.
That brings up the next question, one which has been dear to the heart of my hon. friend from Westmorland (Mr. Em-merson) the last three or four years. I took the trouble one day last week to read the speech made by that hon. gentleman on introducing the Intercolonial railway budget in 1907 when he was Minister of Railways. It will well repay every hon, member to read over that speech carefully and see whether it will not lead him to the conclusion that the hon. gentleman deserves more credit from the people of the maritime provinces than he is ever likely to receive for advocating the acquisition of these branch lines by the government. In that I agree with the hon. gentleman. All one has to do is to go to the maritime provinces and see these branch lines run by little local companies without sufficient capital or rolling stock, unable to equip their lines in proper shape, and then let him look at the enormous quantities of second hand engines, cars, steel rails and all these things retired by the Intercolonial railway a3 no	longer	good	for	themain line, but	which	would	be	wellsuited for the	branch	lines,	and	he
will find that there is sufficient of that discarded material on the Intercolonial railway to equip and fairly operate every branch line in the maritime provinces. When we find an hon. gentleman talking about building hotels, that is a pretty small argument for getting rid of the Intercolonial railway. Does the Dominion Atlantic build hotels? There is no portion of the Dominion which possesses greater possibilities of tourist traffic than does that part of Nova Scotia traversed by the Dominion Atlantic-yet has that company built a hotel? Has the Grand Trunk railway built hotels? Has the Canadian Pacific ever built a hotel in the province of New Brunswick?


Judson Burpee Black: Yes, at St. Andrews.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, the Canadian Pacific did not build a hotel in St. Andrews, but the hotel there was built by another company and taken over by a company allied to the Canadian Pacific railway^ and if you go to St. Andrews how many people do you find in that hotel? You will find a few wealthy magnates; the ordinary man Mr. CARVELL.
has not money enough to live in it. How many ordinary American tourists go up the Algonquin?
I admit that if the Canadian Northern want to go into Halifax or St. John they ought to get there, and if the Canadian Pacific railway wants to go to Halifax they ought to get there. But I do not Torget that this parliament has provided by statute that when the Grand Trunk Pacific reaches Moncton, it will have an absolute right to utilize the Intercolonial railway tracks to St. John and Halifax. Therefore, when we talk of handing the Intercolonial railway over to some private company, we must not forget that there are certain rights which cannot be trampled on. You cannot hand over the Intercolonial railway to a private corporation unless you entirely disregard the rights granted the Grand Trunk Pacific. There is no reason why the Canadian Northern should not get into Halifax or St. Johns without building a mile of railway beyond Levis. I know that if you ask the Canadian Northern or the Grand Trunk railway or the Canadian Pacific railway why thev cannot utilize the Intercolonial railway tracks, they will say it is not possible. For my part, I do not _believe them. I believe it is possible to have three or four times the traffic over the Intercolonial railway that we have to-day. That might possibly necessitate double tracking the road.


Judson Burpee Black: Would you advocate building a road over the Cobiquid mountain?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, I said I would never advocate building a railway over a hill if I could get it through a valley. I would double track the Intercolonial railway and I am told there would be no trouble getting around the Cobiquid mountain.
I have looked up the traffic receipts on the Intercolonial railway, and I find they average $5,000 per mile. Take the New York Central, the Pennsylvania, the Reading and the other big railways, and you will find that their traffic receipts average from $30,000 to $50,000 per mile. Does any one say that we have not brains enough to operate four times as many trains on the Intercolonial railway as we do to-day? It is a reflection on our railway people to say that we could not operate increased traffic on thi3 line, but I would give every railway that wants it, running rights over the Intercolonial railway, but I would not give any railway the right to do local traffic along the Intercolonial railway. Subject to that reservation, if the Canadian Northern, the Canadian Pacific railway or any other railway company wants to get into Halifax or St. John, I see no reason why it should not. No one need tell me that we have not the means at our disposal to accommodate these other railways or the

ability to handle the additional traffic. For these various reasons, I am very much opposed to the proposition to hand over the Intercolonial railway to any private company; and as it is now six o'clock, I move the adjournment of the debate.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.
Henry Robert Emmerson: Under the ordinary rules, this will go to the graveyard of em-barassing motions and perhaps never be resurrected. I understand, however, that quite a number of members from the maritime provinces and from Quebec as well, desire to say something on this question, and I would like to know whether we could not have some understanding that an opportunity will be given to have it discussed some day in the near future.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not imagine there will be any objection. I know of no reason, but for the present prefer that the ordinary procedure should be followed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the House adjourned at six p. m.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, January 25, 1910.