1910-03-18

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 176) to incorporate the Lauren-tian Insurance Company of Canada.-Mr. Talbot.

Mr. FISHER moved:: That the House go into Committee of the Whole on Monday next to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to provide for the payment to members of the Commission for the Conservation of Natural Resources of their actual reasonable disbursements incurred in travelling to, returning from and remaining at meetings of the committees of the commission or attending to the business thereof.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN.: I hope that when the minister taii.es up this motion, as he proposes at an early date, he will make a statement to the House as to what the relation of the commission is to parliament in the way of the committees of parliament asking its advice in regard to certain questions. We have had such questions up in the Railway Committee at times in connection with Bills that seri-


Mr. TEMPLEMAN.: ously interfered with the conservation of our natural resources and I hope the minister and the government will be able to let us know how the committees of this House may avail themselves of the advice, if we are entitled to have the advice, of the commission, and what ought to be the means of communication between the House and the commission.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER moved:: That when this House adjourns on Wednesday, the 23rd inst., it stand adjourned to Tuesday the 29th inst.


Mr. WARBURTON.: Before the motion is carried, may I call the attention of the right hon. First Minister to the fact that, owing to the position in which some of the maritime province members are placed, an adjournment from Wednesday until Tuesday is rather awkward. For myself, going to Prince Edward Island, it means that I have either to lose some days from the House or spend two nights on the road to get into Charlottetown on Saturday at midnight and leave Monday morning. I would like to ask the First Minster if he could not see his way clear to amend the motion so that instead of having the adjournment to Tuesday, it be to the Wednesday following, which would be conferring a great favour upon us, and be most convenient for us.


Wilfrid Laurier: This is a matter as to which the government are quite willing to place themselves in the judgment of the House. If it is preferred that we should reconvene on Wednesday, the 30th, instead of Tuesday the 29th, we are quite willing.


Mr. GEO. TAYLOR.: Several hon. members from the west have spoken to me on the same subject, and they would prefer Wednesday to Tuesday.


Mr. M. CLARK.: Personally, I am nearing the end of the second session in which I have lost one day. I have not been able to go home at any time except upon the occasion of the last Christmas holidays. I represent in that respect a number of western members who come long distances to serve their country, at a great deal of inconvenience, and if the views of the Prince Edward Islanders are to be met they will be met by keeping other gentlemen here, who cannot go home at all, in absolute idleness.


Wilfrid Laurier: In order to accommodate both the east and the west we will say Wednesday the 30th.
Motion as amended, agreed to.



INQUIRY FOR RETURNS.

Mr. EDWARDS.: On the 2nd of December last, I put a question with regard to armouries and drill halls which in the form of a notice of motion was issued as an order on the 15th of December. When mav I expect the return to be brought down?


Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.: I will inquire about the matter, and have it brought down. I might say to the hon. gentleman that there is no objection to it.


William Cameron Edwards: I just thought it had escaped the attention of the minister. On the 13th of January last, I asked a question with regard to certain work done by contractors Sullivan and Langdon of Kingston, and an order -was issued on the 19th of January, but the papers have not yet been brought down.


Mr. PUGSLEY.: I will make inquiry as to the cause of the delay.


Mr. BRODER.: When may we expect the report of the commission appointed to look into the swine industry in Ireland and Denmark?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The report has been in the hands of the printer for some time, and when we get it, which I hope will be soon, it will be distributed.


Mr. BRADBURY.: On the 14th of February last, an order of the House was passed for:
Copy of all papers and instructions given to A. S. Williams, law clerk of the Department of Indian Affairs, and to S. Swinford, inspector of Indians, Winnipeg, in connection with their work among the St. Peter's Indians in Manitoba; also a copy of the report of these gentlemen in connection with the work they have been engaged in during the last few weeks among the St. Peter's Indians.
I would like to have this return as soon as possible.



SUPPLY-LACHUTE POST OFFICE.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. FIELDING moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.
['Bill (No. 130) respecting the Vancouver Island and Eastern Railway Company.- Mr. Ralph Smith.\nBill (No. 139) respecting the Bay of Quinte Railway Company.-Mr. Talbot.\nBill (No. 147) for the relief of Archibald Laurie.-Mr. Congdon.\nBill (No. 148) for the relief of Bernard Shea.-Mr. Rankin.\nBill (No. 149) for the relief of Clara Louise Holden.-Mr. Rankin.\nBill (No. 106) respecting the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company.-Mr. Nesbitt.\nBill (No. 129) to incorporate the Ontario and Ottawa Railway Company.-Mr. Low.\nBill (No. 156) to incorporate the Wey-bum Security Bank.-Mr. Turriff.\nBill (No. 161) respecting the Sovereign Trust Company.-Mr. Nesbitt.']
Mr. GEORGE H. PERLEY.: Six weeks ago, I questioned the government as to why the new public building in Lachute was not being used as a post office, and on my visit to Lachute a short time ago, I was much surprised to find that the post office was closed yet, so iar as the transaction of business is concerned. The building was practically completed many months ago, the caretaker has been living in it all winter, and it is being heated and lighted at the public expense while the public have not the use of it. The Lachute post office is a distributing centre for many of
the smaller post offices, and it is very much needed. Why has it not been opened for the transaction of business?


Mr. LEMIEUX.: I am glad the hon. member has brought this matter to my attention. It may be that the Public Works Department has not yet given the Post Office Department possession, but if it has I will see that the post office is opened at once.


George Halsey Perley: The Minister of Public Works informed me yesterday that the building had been transferred to the Post Office Department.


Rodolphe Lemieux: If that is so the postmaster will be installed immediately.


William Pugsley: The building has been placed at the disposal of the Post Office Department, and the postmaster has recently been asking for certain equipment which no doubt will be supplied as sou: as possible. I think my department has done all that is necessary.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I will see to it immediately.



William Findlay Maclean: I ask the Minister of Finance whether it is the intention of the government to make any statement before the adjournment next Wednesday in connection witn the tariff issue between the United States and Canada?


Mr. FIELDING.: For the present I should not care to make any definite announcement. It will depend upon the state of affairs at that particular time whether an announcement will be made or not. I do not think it would be in the public interest to say anything on the matter at present.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.
Further amount required for steam service between Canada and Mexico, upon the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, $16,666.66.
William Stevens Fielding: This vote is intended for the service on the Atlantic and the Pacific. Originally the Mexican government paid $50,000 in gold, and Canada a similar amount. The Mexican government ceased paying anything, and the Canadian government, rather than see the service abandoned, granted an additional $25,000 per annum, making $75,000 in all. This amount of $16,666 is to cover that portion of the fiscal year 1909-10, since the Mexican government ceased paying their share of the subsidy.


Mr. J. HAGGART.: What business is being done by this line and what are the prospects?


William Stevens Fielding: There is a considerable trade outward, but not very much coming back. That is the reason the Mexican government did not seem disposed to continue their share of the subsidy. From the Canadian point of view, however, the traffic is very encouraging.


John Graham Haggart: We ought to have a specific statement, giving the exact amount of the trade. Will the minister at the same time give us a statement of how it is divided between the Atlantic and the Pacific?
. Mr. FIELDING. The vote is a general one for tooth the Atlantic and the Pacific, but this increase is entirely for the Pacific side. The full details of the traffic are contained in a departmental report which is now in the printer's hands and will reach hon. -members shortly. The tonnage carried outward during the recent months has been as follows: September, 766 tons weight and measurement; October, 2,228 tons weight, and measurement, November, no sailing, December, 3,133 tons weight, and measurement, January, the figures are not yet available.


Mr. WEIGHT.: How frequent is the service on the Atlantic and on the Pacific?


William Stevens Fielding: Monthly on to-oth oceans.


Mr. AEMSTEONG.: What portion of this belongs to the mail service?


William Stevens Fielding: The mails are carried on all subsidized steamers as a condition of the contract, but there is no specific allotment for mail purposes.


Mr. JAMESON.: -Can the minister state what the amount of subsidy per ton of freight is?


William Stevens Fielding: No, we haven't it worked out in that form.


Mr.   SPEOIJLE@: Perhaps the minister would give us some idea of what the aggregate trade is between Canada and Mexico.


William Stevens Fielding: The department report, which has already been presented to the House, contains information of that character. If on examination anything more is required, we shall be happy to supplement it.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Can the minister give us the total increase in the steamship subsidies and subventions this year as compared with last year?


William Stevens Fielding: I haven't it at hand, but I shall be very glad to get it or any other information desired, and endeavour to supply it at another stage of the trade and commerce estimates.


John Graham Haggart: Steam service between Canada and Cuba, $15,000.


John Graham Haggart: Why is this increase, and why did it arise?


William Stevens Fielding: This is a new service. The contract was entered into with Messrs. William Thomson & Company, of St. John, at the rate of $25,000 per annum, one sailing per month. This amount of $15,000 is intended to cover the service performed since November last, but all of it may not be required.


John Graham Haggart: How is it a new
service? The government has not power to enter into a contract without the consent of this House. There must have been an amount voted for it.


William Stevens Fielding: Services of this character are placed under contract with the qualifying condition that no money can be paid until it is appropriated by parliament-. It is not an unusual proceeding.


John Graham Haggart: It has been done, but it is rather unusual, and it is not the_ correct principle qf carrying on the business of the country.


Mr FIELDING.: Perhaps in the main my hon. friend is right. Before a dollar is expended, we should have an appropriation by parliament; but sometimes that is found to interfere with efficient business, and if the parties to a contract are willing to enter into the arrangement on the condition that I have mentioned, I cannot see any objection to it. The failure to do it might prevent the doing of something which parliament would wish to have done as promptly as possible.


Mr. CEOSBY.: I understand that this matter came up last autumn, a demand having been made toy the people of St. John for a line between that city and Cuba. While I have not anything to say against St. John, I wish to point out that the only port in the maritime provinces to which steamers plying between Canada and Cuba will come is the port of Halifax, and they afford sufficient accommodation for all the trade that is carried without any subsidy at all.


William Pugsley: What line is that?


Adam Brown Crosby: The Pickford & Black Company put on boats whenever they are required.


William Pugsley: They get large subsidies for the West India service.


Adam Brown Crosby: They do not get any for Cuba. I do not know whether the Finance Minister (Mr. Fielding) or the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir Eichard Cartwright) was communicated with, but, there must have been some communication from

the port of Halifax in regard to this matter. On account of this subsidy feeing granted, this steamer was brought to St. John and loaded largely with potatoes which she carried to the port of Havana and flooded that market to such an extent that shippers in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick lost a great deal of money. I understand from the statement of the Minister of Finance that all the money will not be required. That means no doubt that the steamship is not going to 'Continue the monthly trip. Is that the case? I have no desire to interfere with the port of St. John or any other port. I desire that every port should be given all the accommodation possible, but I do not think it wise to subsidize one line to compete against others. I shall be glad when the time comes when we shall be able, to dispense with subsidies, but am satisfied in the meantime that such subsidies as are necessary to encourage trade and commerce should be given. I might refer to the Mexican trade as an instance in which a subsidy is very advantageous. But if any fair minded man will consult with the merchants of St. John, he will be told that the subsidy to the line in question was not conducive to their best interests.


William Pugsley: This service established between St. John and Cuba has been of the very greatest possible benefit. If my hon. friend were to communicate with the board of trade and the merchants and shippers of St. John, he would find that the service has been very successful in the way of developing trade, and has given satisfaction to the shippers, not only from St. John, but from up the valley of the St. John river, more especially in the counties of Carleton, Victoria, and other sections. My hon. friend says that the steamship lines from Halifax to Cuba will afford all the accommodation necessary. I am always glad to see trade developed from the port of Halifax, but the difficulty with that port is that it is too far away from the point of production in New Brunswick to be of any advantage to the people producing hay and potatoes and other agricultural products in the valley of the St. John river, one of the best sections in the whole of Canada for the production of potatoes. The only difficulty was the want of a market, but by reason of the establishment of this line, these people have been able to market thehr potatoes in large quantities. These potatoes are a great favourite in the Cuban market, and the result has been an enormous benefit to the farmers of the St. John river valley. As to the line which the Department of Trade and Commerce agreed to subsidize, it was bound to give one sailing per month. As a matter of fact, in the two months, during which its steamers have been running, it has given seven sailings instead of one per month. In one month it gave three sailings instead of one. It did that because of the development of trade and because it was reasonably necessary for the accommodation of the public.


Adam Brown Crosby: How many sailings in February and March?


William Pugsley: March is not much more than half through, but in February, I think they had two sailings.


Adam Brown Crosby: Does the minister know whether they had any sailings at all or not?


William Pugsley: Yes, I am quite sure they had one, and I think they had two.


Adam Brown Crosby: Is this steamship service, to which we are paying a subsidy of $25,000 a year, to continue every month in the year?


William Pugsley: That is the expectation.


Adam Brown Crosby: I am not asking what is the expectation, but what the contract is.


William Stevens Fielding: This contract requires a monthlv service. My hon. friend is mistaken when he says that the service from Halifax is performed without a subsidy. There, is a service subsidized from Halifax to Cuba.


Adam Brown Crosby: There is only the Mexican line which calls at Cuba.


William Stevens Fielding: That is a subsidized service.


Adam Brown Crosby: But here you have a line subsidized from St. John direct to Cuba and back. The line from Montreal in the summer, and Halifax in the winter, touching at Havana, calls at the Bahama islands and Cuba, and goes down to Mexico. We get all the boats we want in Halifax in ihe season when freights are offering; and if very little freight offers, it is difficult to get boats to carry on the service until next November. Before the government entered into a contract to pay a subsidy of $25,000 to a steamship line between St! John and Cuba, they should have been able to show whether there was any necessity for it or whether that service could not be had without a subsidy. I have no desire to oppose the granting of a subsidy where necessary for the general benefit of Canada, but I am opposed to the granting of subsidies where they are not required. That is why I take exception to this subsidy. People in Halifax were very much disappointed when it was granted, and from the information I have, the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir Richard Cartwright) must have had some communication from the merchants in the export trade, indicating that all the accommodation necessary for the trade with Cuba could be had at Halifax without charge to this country.


William Stevens Fielding: According to my hon. friend, all the accommodation which Halifax desires must be given even with the assistance of subsidies. But the province of New Brunswick is largely engaged in the production of potatoes, and if the trade there wishes to export them to Cuba, I do not see why they should not have the right to do so; and as St. John is more convenient for the shipment of New Brunswick produce, I do not see why the St. John people should not have a line subsidized to Cuba.


Adam Brown Crosby: If the Halifax merchants can get all the freight accommodation they want, the St. John people ought to be able to get the same. The boats chartered from Halifax come to that port at a season when freight is offered, so that the trade can get all the accommodation they require. These boats to Cuba will not carry the mails, the mails go by way of New York. They are subsidized from St. John simply for the purpose of carrying freight and nothing else, and are not suitable for carrying the mails any way. I am not asking that Halifax be put on a different footing from St. John, but that it be on an equal basis.


William Pugsley: We have always thought that Halifax was treated better than St. John.


Adam Brown Crosby: It is easy to prove that the hon. minister is wrong, and when the time comes, I shall be able to do that. When we take up the railway question I shall be able to show that St. John has a great advantage of one per cent per 100 pounds over Halifax. All we want is to be on a fair and equal basis with St. John, but I do say it is unfair to grant a subsidy to St. John to a boat running in competition with boats that run qn their own bottoms from Halifax, and so put the merchants and exporters of Halifax in a different position from those in St. John. I want them to be on an even basis, and on an even basis we are able to play our part in exporting, or importing at all times. But I do not want to have Halifax placed at a disadvantage by giving $2,000 a month to a boat to run from St. John or any other part of Canada. The Minister of Finance must know this better than I do because he is more familiar with these things. He refers to the steamship company that trades [DOT]between Montreal in summer via Halifax, and the Bahama Islands, and Cuba, and then to Mexico, hut he should know that that service has nothing to do with the direct trade with Cuba.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not understand my hon. friend. A vessel sailing from Halifax to Cuba, and landing goods there is in direct trade with Cuba. There is that steamer running direct to Cuba, and enjoying a government subsidy. It is true that Mr. CROSBY.
Halifax has occasional other steamers that do not enjoy a subsidy, but it is also true that both Halifax and St. John have subsidized lines to Cuba.


Adam Brown Crosby: The Minister of Finance surely does not want us to believe that a boat sailing from Montreal, calling at Halifax, and then going to the Bahamas, and calling at Cuba, and on to Mexico, is a direct subsized boat from Halifax to Cuba.


William Pugsley: Why not?


Adam Brown Crosby: The New Brunswick people have the same right, and opportunity that the people of Halifax, and Nova Scotia have on this line subsized from Montreal in the summer, and from Halifax in the winter to Cuba and Mexico, but here we have a steamship line subsidized last November, a contract made by the government last November, yet no intimation was given to the House last session that such a thing was intended. Now we are asked to vote the money. I think it is quite unfair. The understanding was that nothing was to be paid unless we granted it. It should not be granted because I do not think they are entitled to anvthing. If it was necessary that this should be given in order to facilitate the trade of Canada, and Cuba I would be quite satisfied, but that is not the case, and no one has shown or attempted to show that we have not now all the accommodation required for our trade with Cuba, which is chiefly the fish and potato trade. We have a lumber trade which is carried by sailing vessels, and we have all the accommodation required for that trade. No one in St. John or in Nova Scotia has any desire to have the lumber trade diverted from sailing boats to steamers. The fish and potato trade is all that requires accommodation. I protest against this $25,000 subsidy to a service that is not required.


William Cameron Edwards: Will this line running to Cuba also run to Mexico?


William Stevens Fielding: This line to which this item refers does not go to Mexico, but the other line to which I referred, after serving the trade between Halifax and Cuba, proceeds on to Mexico.


William Cameron Edwards: I notice that the total amount in the main and supplementary estimates granted to these two lines is something like $65,000 more thi3 year than last year. That is the subsidy to the line running to Mexico is increased this year by $25,000, and the main estimates contain $25,000 for the line to Cuba, which I presume is the same line towards which you are giving the additional $15,000 in the supplementary estimates, making $40,000 of subsidy to that line where last year there was nothing.


William Stevens Fielding: There seems to be a misconception. These is an additional

subsidy of $25,000 for a line from St. John to Cuba. That is a new vote, an addition to the subsidies of last year. The other item shows an increase of $16,000 for the current year on the Pacific side towards Mexico. That is not the Atlantic service at all. On the Pacific we are taking up to some extent the burden which the Mexican government had to lay down.


Mr. J. A. CURRIE.: I may inform the
minister that the potato business, which looms so largely in his mind, last year amounted to $57,000, and he is giving $25,000 to improve that service. The exports to the British West Indies were $2,549,000, whilst the imports were over $7,000,000. Thus the West Indies are getting the benefit of our market through our subsidy. Have the West Indies expressed any desire to add to these subsidies as they benefit by them three times as much as we do?


William Stevens Fielding: That is rather a broad question. The subject of trade relations with the West Indies is at this moment engaging the attention of a Royal Commission on which the Minister of Customs has been sitting. I was also a member, but unfortunately was not able to go to the West Indies. The West Indies have not felt able to contribute to these subsidies in the past. The arrangement has hitherto been one sided, both with respect to subsidies, and to the preference. We are trying to bring about a better understanding, how successfully remains to he seen. The West Indies are not too prosperous, and not as well able as Canada to assist commercial enterprise. While it is an undoubted fact that they get advantage of the trade coming this way. it is of considerable advantage to Canada, that we should encourage our export trade to the West Indies. That has been a large trade in bygone years for the lower provinces, and we still hope that it will be a trade that will command the encouragement of parliament.


John Graham Haggart: The Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) should be able to show some reason other than those he has given for the extraordinary contract he has entered into. A contract for which there is no vote of parliament should be justified by some extraordinary reason, something in the nature of an emergency. No such cause as that is alleged. Surely, the New Brunswick trade in potatoes was as great in preceding years as it is now. When such a contract is entered into, for which there is no vote of parliament, there should be some other justification than such a statement as that of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Pugsley) of the extraordinary quantity of potatoes coming down the St. John river for shipment to Cuba. If there was an extraordinary crop last year, are
the conditions likely to bring about a repetition of that crop next year?


William Pugsley: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: Then, it is now probably about what it has been for fifty years past, and so the question is one which ought to have been considered by the government before now and ought to have been brought to the attention of the House. What I protest against is this manner of doing business, the government entering into a contract for so important a matter as a subsidy with an ocean steamship company without any authority of parliament and for no better reasons than the carrying of the surplus stock of potatoes from the St. John river to Cuba. The very fact that a commission is sitting for the purpose of inquiring into this matter of West Indian trade is the reason why no such arrangement should^ have been made without consideration of the matter by parliament, unless there was some stronger and more urgent reason than those that have already been stated to us. I enter my protest against such a manner of carrying on the business of the country.


William Pugsley: The hon. member for South Lanark (Mr. J. Haggart) says that there must have been the same surplus of potatoes at any time during me last fifty years as last year. I assure my hon. friend that he is entirely mistaken. In the valley of the St. John river, and more especially in the county of Carleton, as my hon. friend from that' county (Mr. Carvell) well knows, a great deal more attention has been paid to the cultivation of potatoes- in recent years than in the past. People have been going into the business scientifically, and it is not unusual for a farmer to raise $4,000 or $5,000 worth of potatoes in a season. Therefore, this is a matter of enormous importance to a great many farmers. About a year ago the Department of Trade and Commerce very wisely sent a trade commissioner to Cuba. That gentleman made a very careful investigation of the Cuban market, and the possibilities of a large business in potatoes and other products of Canada. His reports gave great encouragement as to the possibilities of doing business in potatoes in that market. The farmers of Carleton and other parts of the St. John valley had been finding a market for potatoes in Montreal and Ottawa-they had even sent them as far west as Toronto, but, owing to the freight rates, there was very little profit in the business for the farmer, and some years no profit at all. Therefore, they began to turn their attention to the Cuban market, and especially view of the report of the trade commissioner appointed by this government.


John Allister Currie: What about the American market from which they were shut out about a year ago?


William Pugsley: That was also an important fact which necessarily had its influence. Under' the former tariff of the United States the duty upon potatoes was 25 cents per bushel, but by the recent tariff legislation it was increased to 40 cents, a prohibitory rate. Therefore, the farmers were obliged to turn to Cuba for a market, and it did seem as if there were vast possibilities of creating a profitable business there. So strongly did the people feel upon this subject that, last season, the provincial government undertook to assist in the work by renting a warehouse in Cuba and also a warehouse in the city of St. John to facilitate the storage of potatoes until they could be sent forward. My hon. friend from Carleton came to Ottawa in the interest of the people, and as the result of large meetings that had been held in various sections of the county of Carleton, and urged in the strongest possible manner that this government should take steps to procure a regular service between St. John and Cuba, so that the producer might know that there would be an opportunity of sending potatoes forward regularly, and that the Cuban market could be cultivated with a greater degree of certainty. The government, after very careful consideration, yielded to the representations made on behalf of the people who had met to discuss the matter altogether irrespective of politics, and in such large numbers that it was evident that the feeling was universal that here was an opportunity to develop trade which ought not to be missed. The government agreed to give the aid, and, while the company was bound to give a sailing once a month, it has, up to the present time, given two or three sailings a month. The business has developed greatly. My hon. friend from North Sim-coe (Mr. J. A. Currie) speaks of the total value of potatoes sent to Cuba as having been $57,000


John Allister Currie: That was the amount sent to all the West Indies.


William Pugsley: I can tell my hon. friend that, as the result of the regular steamship communication which has been established, and the efforts of the trade commissioner in Cuba appointed by this government, and of the co-operation of the farmers of New Brunswick in developing the trade, the farmers of the province of New Brunswick will export to Cuba alone during the present year fully three times as much in value of potatoes as the amount given by my hon. friend as representing our trade with the whole of the West Indies.


Mr. CARVELL.: Six times as much.


William Pugsley: 


William Pugsley: Yes, probably six times as my hon. friend states. There will be sent there this year probably six times the total quantity of potatoes sent from the whole of Canada to the West Indies, including Cuba, up to the 31st March last.


Adam Brown Crosby: The estimate given by my hon. friend was of potatoes sent to the British West Indies, not to Cuba.


William Pugsley: I understood my hon. friend to give the total exports. In my judgment this government cannot be performing a better service to the public than by giving the farmers of any section of Canada a new outlet for their products.


John Graham Haggart: It is the government doing it that we object to. It is parliament that has the authority.


William Stevens Fielding: Parliament is going to vote it, I hope.


William Pugsley: I know of nothing that will be of more benefit to an important section of Canada than the establishment of this service between St. John and Cuba. In regard to parliament voting the money, I may say that it was a matter of great urgency last fall that this service should be established, at the very time that these potatoes were being harvested. That was the time that the market was ready, and it was necessary to provide this service. The company was willing to take the assurance of the government that parliament would be asked to vote this subsidy, but the whole matter is subject, of course, to the approval of parliament. The matter was one of very great urgency as far as it affected a very large number of the people of New Brunswick.
Mr. EDWARDS I think I am quite right in saying that as far as the potato crop is concerned, last year was one of the most prolific years that we have ever seen for that crop in the Dominion of Canada. As regards the trade of Canada with Cuba, I find that there was a larger amount of potatoes exported from Canada to Cuba last year than for several years previously. In the year 1908 the amount was 468,438 bushels, valued at $357,824; and in 1906, 486,893 bushels, valued at $377,140. If you take the total exports and imports, you find that the total exports to Cuba in 1906 amounted to $1,221,766; in 1908, $1,366,319, and in 1909, $1,403,442. There was an increase in our export trade with Cuba last year over the previous year of $37,123. It appears to me that to increase subsidies to the extent of $40,000 is a little out of proportion to the increase in the trade as shown by the report of the Department of Trade and Commerce. When we take up the matter of our imports from Cuba we find the following figures:

There has been an actual falling off in our imports from Cuba, a lessening in the trade, and if we compare our total trade in 1909 with our total trade in 1908, including exports and Imports, we find that the increase is only $18,000. We are hardlv warranted in giving so large a subsidy by the result as shown in the report of the Department of Trade a*nd Commerce. We are anxious to do anything we ean to increase the trade of Canada, but I think we should keep within reasonable bounds in this matter, and when a commission has been appointed to inquire into this question, it would be well to have a little more information to warrant so large an appropriation as that which is being asked for by the minister in this regard.


William Stevens Fielding: The commission referred to does not cover trade with Cuba. The commission in question has relation entirely to trade with the British West Indies, and perhaps it would be well to understand that the Cuban trade is not in any way affected by the operations of that commission.


William Cameron Edwards: I gave the figures of Canada's trade with Cuba.


William Stevens Fielding: I merely wanted to have it understood that the commission is not inquiring into anything beyond the British West Indies.


William Cameron Edwards: That might give us an indication of trade with the islands in the vicinity of British West Indies.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am sorry I was not here at the beginning of this discussion, because this is a matter of very great importance to my own constituency and the whole western part of New Brunswick, as well as to other portions of the maritime provinces. The figures quoted by the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) I have no doubt are correct as to the year ended March 31, 1909, but he will be surprised when he leams the totals of this year's trade with Cuba. I have not the figures at my hand, but my recollection is that last year alone something like 300,000 or 400,000 barrels of potatoes were imported into Cuba from the United States. I had a letter only a few days ago from the Canadian Trade Commissioner in Cuba, and he informed me that no potatoes whatever had been inputted into Cuba from the United States during the past year. The maritime provinces to-day are controlling the entire potato trade of Cuba. We know that the development of that country is only commencing. I can tell my hon. friends here that in the St. John valley alone we are
producing seven or eight times the quantity of potatoes that we were producing six or seven years ago, and we could multiply that three or four times yet without any difficulty if we only had a market. There is practically no limit within reason to the possibilities all up and down the St. John river in respect to potatoes providing we have a market. Formerly we used to send them to the United States. The duty is now 62i cents a barred of 160 pounds. For a number of years we were able to sell quite a quantity of potatoes to Ontario, * but we found last year, on looking into the crop returns, that there would be an export from Ontario rather than an import. My recollection is that the United States tariff is not only 62J cents a barrel, but that they proposed to make it 40 cents a bushel. It may be 40 cents a bushel now.


Adam Brown Crosby: It is 40 cents a bushel now.
Mr.CARVELL. That is how much a barrel?-and if the surtax is put on that means probably $1.25 or $1.50, which absolutely precludes trade with the United States. We saw that if we could not sell our potatoes to the upper Canadian provinces or to the United States, with a crop variously estimated at from 400,000 to 600,000 bushels in New Brunswick alone, it would mean almost ruination to the very farmers in that province. I make no apology in stating that I did everything I could to get the government to inaugurate this service. I take my full share of the responsibility, and I can assure my hon. friend from Lanark (Mr. Haggart) that regardless of politics or of any political feeling in the province of New Brunswick, both parties are agreed that this is one of the best moves that was ever made. To such an extent are they agreed that the local government, whose rights are not so great as are those of this government, are co-operating in this business. This year our farmers have been able to dispose of their products, but without this encouragement I do not know what they would have done, and this applies to Nova Scotia to some extent as well as to New Brunswick. The service is from St. John, and I hope the House will not hesitate for a moment to vote this because so much good has it done in my own constituency alone that up to the present time we have shipped about 300,000 bushels of potatoes to Cuba.


John Graham Haggart: Have we sent from Canada to Cuba any more potatoes than last?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Yes.


John Graham Haggart: Very little.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Oh yes, the export this year has been more than doubled from

the maritime provinces. The returns my hon. friend has are only brought down to March, 1909, but he will be surprised when he sees the returns down to March, 1910. A year ago the people of the United States were supplying the people of Cuba with potatoes, but with proper transportation facilities there is no reason why New Brunswck and Nova Scotia cannot control the whole potato trade of Cuba.


John Graham Haggart: There is a monthly-statement issued by the department down to March, 1910.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I was not aware of that, but I am positive these returns will show an enormous increase in the export trade to Cuba.from the maritime provinces and from Canada as a whole. From my own constituency 250,000 bushels of potatoes have been sent to Cuba since October; from the whole province of New Brunswick 350,000 bushels, and there will be half a million bushels sent before the first of May. There is a great chance for business with Cuba, not only in potatoes, but in hay, grain, fish, and lumber, and every steamer shows a largely increased cargo.


Mr. WRIGHT.: Is this subsidy confined to one steamship line, and has the government control over the freight rates?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The contract is with a very responsible firm, that of Wm. Thomson & Co., of St. John, who are large ship owners. The department has absolute control over freight rates and as a result of the subsidy the freight rates on potatoes to Cuba are to-day 30 per cent less than they were a year ago.


Adam Brown Crosby: What is the rate?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Forty cents a barrel from St. John to Havana, and this time last year it was 65 cents. The subsidy has more than doubled the business between the maritime provinces and Cuba, and it promises to be even more beneficial in the future.


Mr. SPROULE.: I do not dispute the wisdom of subsidizing a line between Cuba and Canada, but I do object to the principle of the government making a contract before it informs parliament, and then asking parliament to approve of it so that no matter whether it is a bad contract or not the friends of the government have to support it or vote non-confidence in the go v-ernment. Parliament has the right to be consulted before contracts of this kind are entered into. The people of New Brunswick must have been raising potatoes before there was any subsidy, and if they wanted to get into the Cuban market the government could very well have submitted the proposition to parliament before committing themselves to a contract.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: ;j 1


Mr. MICHAUD.: I beg to state that I concur in the statement made by the Minister of Public Works and my hon. friend from Carleton county in reference to potato growing in New Brunswick. The potato growing industry is one of the largest agricultural industries in the state of Maine, and there is no reason in the world why it should not be an equally important industry in New Brunswick, if we had transportation facilities for the crop. What has happened in the past is that the potato buyers of the state of Maine have been buying our New Brunswick potatoes for from 60 to 70 cents per barrel, paying the duty, taking them to Boston and New York, and very often sending the same potatoes to Cuba. We want the same facilities for getting into the markets as our American friends have, and the present subsidy is one way of enabling us to obtain these facilities. I am informed that the state of Maine produces as much potatoes as all the rest of the United States put together, and every Maine farmer who goes into the industry is making money. We have the same soil in New Brunswick, and there is no reason why we should not supply the Cuban market as well as the market in the British West India Islands. I approve of the subsidy to be granted by the government in this case to help transportation between St. John and the West Indies, and 1 believe it will be productive of the best results.


John Graham Haggart: Have you any starch factories in New Brunswick?


Pius Michaud: No. The farmers of Maine send their best potatoes to the market and keep their small potatoes for making starch, but we have not as yet developed in New Brunswick a starch industry to any extent.


William Wright: It does not seem to me that the best method is to give a subsidy to one particular steamship company. I should think that if a subsidy of so much per ton were given fo any steamer which carried the goods from St. John or any other port, that such a system would leave it open for all steamship companies to compete. But if you give full control of the business to one company they can charge up to the limit of the arrangement they have with the government and all other companies are shut out.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The actual conditions existing would make the suggestion of the hon. member (Mr. Wright) impracticable. The potatoes have to be shipped in the winter, and they have to be kept free from frost in heated cars, and warehouses, ar.d unless there was a regular steamer leaving at a fixed date the potato grower up in the country 150 miles away would not

know when to send his potatoes to the seaboard. With the subsidies confined to a regular line sailing on a given day in each month, the merchant has a month in which to get his shipment ready and send it to the sea-board. If we gave the subsidy' to any steamer that came along, we might be subsidizing half a dozen steamers in one week, and none in the next month or two.
I think the only way to arrange the matter is the way the government has adopted. With regard to the manufacture' of starch,
I may say that that question has been gone into carefully by the business men of New Brunswick, and it has been found imDOSsible. The amount of potato starch consumed in Canada is so small, that even of the amount produced in the province of Prince Edward Island two years ago one-half was left over. We cannot send it to the United States because there is a prohibitive duty against it, and we cannot send it to England because there they use sago starch.


John Graham Haggart: A good deal of starch is exported from Canada to England, is it not?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Not potato starch. I went into the question with other gentlemen with the view of establishing a starch industry, but we found that we could not make it pay


Mr FRASER.: I am not against the passing of this item, but I think the government should have a settled policy in regard to these subsidies to steamers, so that the different provinces, and the different cities would be able to derive some benefit from them. In the province from which I come we labour under a great disadvantage in the matter of transportation, especially in regard to potatoes. We grow more potatoes per acre in Prince Edward Island, I think, than any other province of Canada. I am well aware that the valley of the St. John river and that part of New Brunswick adjacent to the state of Maine, are becoming very productive in potatoes. But we in Prince Edward Island have not the advantage of having a winter port, like St. John, open all the year round. We have to ship our potatoes in the fall, in a month or two before the close of navigation. Our whole potato crop must then be thrown on the market. The consequence is that the market is glutted, and the farmers do not receive the price they should receive if they could put their product on the market gradually. As to starch factories, we have some in Prince Edward Island. In Kings county alone, we have four which manufacture potato starch during the fall of the year, and to as late a time as they can. One thing this government could do to foster the potato trade would be to give us a better freight rate
on the Intercolonial railway, and better conditions for shipment. We cannot ship potatoes in the winter season, because there is no provision made on the Intercolonial railway for keeping the cars warm, and the potatoes in a marketable state until they arrive at Montreal. I have known merchants to inquire whether they could send potatoes to Montreal, and the answer was tiiat if they sent them they would have to send them at their own risk, and send a man along to keep a fire going in the car to prevent them from freezing. As hon. gentlemen know, we have shipped a great many potatoes for years. It is not a new industry, but a very old one, and the government would be justified in providing better transportation facilities for our potatoes, and other products. In this connection I wish to call the attention of the government to another matter which would greatly increase the value of the potato in Prince Edward Island. We want this government to allow us to go into the manufacture of denatured alcohol, for which the potato has been found to be very suitable material. A company has received a charter from the provincial government for that purpose, but for some reason we cannot get permission from this government to manufacture it. If the government would allow the manufacture of denatured alcohol to be carried on, it would greatlv reduce the price of gasoline and other products of alcohol, and also increase the value of the potato.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: My hon. friend complains of the difficulty of shipping potatoes from the island, and we realize that there are difficulties, particularly on account of the inclemency of the weather in the winter time. I think the Cuban and Mexican service calls at Charlottetown until the close of navigation, so that potatoes can be shipped from September to the close of navigation. He speaks of the difficulty of transportation over the Intercolonial rail-wav. I can assure him that we have the same difficulty in shipping over the Canadian Pacific railway. There have been thousands of ordinary box cars lined in my constituency in the last ten years. A merchant gets a box car, lines it up, puts a stove in it and a man to look after it and keep the fire going, and pays all the expense. Once in a while he may get hold of a car that is lined and wdll not have to pay the expense of lining it. The In-tercolanial railway is not the only railway in Canada which does not provide heated cars for the transportation of potatoes.


Mr. FRASER.: Do you not think that ought to be remedied?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: I am only pointing out that the Intercolonial railway is not worse than the others.


Austin Levi Fraser: That does not make the case any better. I am informed that this line does not call at Charlottetown.


William Stevens Fielding: I understand that upon being notified that freight is waiting there for shipment, the line will call at Charlottetown. No complaint has yet been made of any difficulty on that score.


John Graham Haggart: There is an item for this in the main estimates for the present fiscal year?


William Stevens Fielding: Yes.


Adam Brown Crosby: This item, I understand, is for the months which have passed.


William Stevens Fielding: That is correct.


Adam Brown Crosby: So far as I am concerned, I am not here to protest against any facility being given any port in Canada, but to say that what we want is fair play. We do not want a line subsidized in St. John which is going to handicap the shipping trade of Halifax or any other port. The Cuban market has been open to us for many years and we have been supplying it. Every port in Europe which has potatoes to ship, sends its surplus to the Cuban market, There all the shippers meet on even terms, and I want to see that one Canadian port is not given an advantage in that market over another. No doubt it is quite proper for the member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) to do everything he can to protect his own people, but we have every facility for this trade to Cuba from the Bay of Fundy side of Nova Scotia. Forty cents a barrel is a low rate, but if a steamer gets $2,000 a trip, she can easily afford to carry freight very low. Potatoes are carried from the Bay of Fundy side in sailing vessels at 50 cents per barrel. One of the largest shippers of potatoes in the maritime provinces is Mr. R. C. Tait, of Shediac, who ships from Halifax to the Cuban market. I am glad to be able to give the name of a shipper in New Brunswick, and if the Finance Minister will communicate with Mr. Tait, and ask him what conditions prevailed in Cuba this last year, Mr. Tait will tell him that it was the vrorst year the maritime provinces shippers ever had. Probably they lost more money this last year than they ever made in any other, and in my opinion that was largely due to the fact that steamers, which were chartered to load without subsidy from Halifax, had to compete with steamers subsidized from St. John. It was not the case of Nova Scotia against New Brunswick, but of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick contending against New Brunswick, in a sense.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: The combine tried to drive New Brunswick potatoes out of the market and failed.


Adam Brown Crosby: A combine could not drive the government out of the market.


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: 


William Stevens Fielding: 


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: combine.


Adam Brown Crosby: I about a combine, combine in Cuba.
No one can do that.
I refer to the Cuban
do not know anything There cannot be any


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Go down there with a car-load and you will find out.


Adam Brown Crosby: Nova Scotia has been shipping to Cuba right along without any assistance from the government. But if the government is giving $2,000 a trip for a steamer from St. John to Cuba, I ask the same subsidy for the province of Nova Scotia. However, as this matter will -come up again in the main estimates, we shall be able to discuss it more fully. But I am much surprised that the Minister of Finance, who is the representative of Nova Scotia in the cabinet, seems to be particularly anxious that this subsidy should continue. although he must know that it is nothing less than competition against Nova Scotia.


William Stevens Fielding: There are various ways of assisting the port of Halifax, and I am always anxious to do it, but I have no idea that I can assist that city by trying to prevent fair play to any other port. The best way to help Halifax, is to try to do justice to it and equal justice to all other ports.


Adam Brown Crosby: As regards the subsidizing of a steamer direct to Cuba, we have no such subsidy.


William Stevens Fielding: There is a steamer running direct from Halifax to Cuba, which afterwards goes on to Mexico. If that steamer went on to the Sandwich Islands, or any other place, afterwards, that would not alter the fact that it gives the people of Halifax direct freight to Cuba.


Adam Brown Crosby: That statement is hardly correct. The steamer goes from Montreal with the understanding that she will call at Prince Edward Island or anywhere else she is asked to call. I would not call that a direct route.


William Stevens Fielding: When she leaves Halifax, she goes direct to Cuba, but she has the option, when business offers, to make a call at the Bahama Islands. She leaves Halifax, takes what goods are offered her there, and lands them at Cuba.


Adam Brown Crosby: She may be loaded when she leaves Montreal.


William Stevens Fielding: If my hon. firend will say that freight is offered at Halifax foT Cuba, which that steamer cannot take, he will then have a grievance.
, Mr. CROSBY. We will allow the matter to stand over until the other estimates come up. By that time the Minister of Finance

*will have had more opportunity to look into the conditions we have to contend with as regards this subsidized steamer from St. John.


William Findlay Maclean: The suggestion regarding the making of alcohol from potatoes, is of the highest importance to this country. It comes well within the scope of a national policy. The Minister of Inland Revenue should take up this question of making spirits out of potatoes without putting on a tax. There is a way of doing that so that it will not come into competition with spirits that pay excise duty. Germany has found a way of doing it and that has contributed very largely to her industrial progress. The Germans make spirits out of potatoes which do not come into competition with the spirit that pays excise duty, and as a result Germany has the cheapest alcohol in the world for manufacturing purposes. Germany does not need to import great quantities of gasoline; she is quite independent of the oil combine that exists in the United States and that fixes the price of gasoline the world over. We may have the same condition in Canada if, as these hon. members tell us, the maritime provinces can produce potatoes in such enormous quantities. The need of some kind of spirit in competition with gasoline for industrial purposes is constantly growing.
I venture the prediction that within five years all the agricultural machinery of the northwest will be run either by gasoline or by alcohol. If by gasoline, we shall have to import from the United States; if by alcohol used in engines based onj the principle of explosion, we can produce that alcohol in enormous quantities. In France and Germany every encouragement is given to the cheap production of spirit of this kind. All we have to do is to follow their example. The maritime province members could, not do a better thing than to urge the government to appoint a commission to inquire how this industry may be encouraged. Once it is done, it will be easy to carry it on, seeing that it has been made a success elsewhere.


William Templeman: I do not know that the manufacture of alcohol for power purposes has much to do with the transportation of potatoes to Cuba -


William Findlay Maclean: Yes, it is a question of a market for potatoes.


William Templeman: It is the easiest thing in the world to manufacture alcohol from potatoes. If the farmers can grow potatoes cheaply enough, the thing is done. If the farmers of Prince Edward Island would prefer to grow potatoes that would net them, probably, 8 cents to 10 cents a bushel instead of the 40 cents to 50 cents i
which they now get, it will be possible to manufacture in Canada alcohol for power purposes. When I say 10 cents a bushel, I am speaking approximately and from what I remember of the figures of two or three years ago when this question was before the House. I have all the data in my office. To get denatured alcohol down in price to compete with gasoline means potatoes at from 10 to 12 cents per bushel. I am aware that a poor class of potatoes produce even a larger quantity of alcohol than potatoes which are better for food. I suppose that is the kind from which alcohol for industrial purposes is made in Germany. But there is no use of comparing Canada with Germany-and Germany is the only place where alcohol for power purposes is made on a large scale from potatoes, for I do not think the manufacture in France is very large. Germany encourages this manufacture by a bounty. In the first place, the government there controls the manufacture of alcohol-I do not understand the system but they control it. And there is a higher tax on alcohol intended to be used as a drink than upon crude alcohol used as an illuminant or for fuel. On the other hand they put a tax upon petroleum, thereby increasing the price when imported into Germany. If we are prepared to do all this in Canada, we may solve the problem of getting the cost of alcohol down to something like 15 or 20 cents per gallon. Two or three years ago, a wave of interest in the question of denatured alcohol arose in the United States and passed into Canada. The United States congress enacted a law giving permission to remove alcohol from bonded warehouses to be denatured and put upon the market for this purpose, and also took power to authorize the establishment of small distilleries on the farms to produce alcohol from cbrnstalks and other rough or waste vegetable matter. To-day. I believe, there is not one of these distilleries in the United States. Even in the corn belt of Illinois, where the cheapest alcohol on this continent can be manufactured, alcohol is taken out of bond and denatured and is put on the market as a fuel and illuminant, if I mistake not, at' about 40 cents per wine gallon, which would be at the rate of about 48 or 50 cents per imperial gallon. It is utter nonsense to talk about manufacturing alcohol in Canada out of potatoes grown for that purpose by the high-priced labour of the farms of this country to compete against the alcohol of the great, corn belt. There is no question of duty at all; we could remit the dutv if the alcohol were, used for industrial purposes, and we do so now'. If the farmers of Prince Edw'ard Island can demonstrate that they can produce potatoes at a price that will permit the manufactured alcohol to be

sold at a less price than gasoline, we will arrange very quickly that they shall have permission for the manufacture. A distillery license costs $250, but that could be removed in the case of industrial alcohol. But from our investigation, we are convinced that alcohol cannot under existing conditions be made in Canada at a rate to compete with gasoline or petroleum. If my hon. friend (Mr. W. F. Maclean) or anybody else can demonstrate to the Department of Inland Revenue that it can be done, I give my promise that the legislation will be introduced to enable the manufacture of alcohol for industrial purposes to be carried on. It is not a question of legislation but of manufacture.


Mr. BARNARD.: Can the minister tell me# anything of the subsidy for the steamship line between San Francisco and Victoria?


William Templeman: The subsidy is the same as usual-$3,000, I think. It is in the main estimates, but is not yet voted.
Winter steamship service between Riviere du Loup and Tadousac and other points, $4,500.


Rodolphe Lemieux: This is a new item in the estimates. The north and south shores of the River St. Lawrence below Riviere Ouelle have been practically closed during the winter season. The company which obtained this contract from the government undertook to have winter navigation, and I must say to their credit that they succeeded this winter. They have a steamer between Tadousac and Fraserville or Riviere du Loup-I wish they would adhere to the old name-They have also established a service between Tadousac and St. Catherines bay in Chicoutimi. That is why $1,000 has been added. I would move the following addition:
And St. Catherines bay and Tadousac.
There is an amount of $2,500 in the main estimates for that service. The hon. member for Quebec West (Mr. Price) knows that service. I think Price Bros, performed the service in years gone by, but last year they had not a boat, and we subsidized this boat. Instead of going as they do in the summer, when there is a steamship service between Quebec and Chicoutimi stopping at different norts on both sides of the river, in order to facilitate delivery down the St. Lawrence, even to Labrador, the mails, cross from Tadousac to St. Catherines bay, and thus avoid the long detour by Chicoutimi, at the head of the river. The steamer, is the * Mahone ', not a large boat, but one thoroughly adapted for that winter service.


John Graham Haggart: However commendable the service, this vote is open to the same objection as the last, that a contract Mr. TEMPLEMAN.
is entered into without money having first been voted by parliament.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The hon. gentleman will be quite right, but he must rememoer that in the contract there is a clause making payment to the contractor conditional upon the voting of the money by parliament.


John Allister Currie: What about the winter service to the Magdalen islands?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I presume the hon. gentleman refers to the special winter service for the mail3. I think that next year I can provide a winter service to the Magdalen islands for the mails, owing to the experience we had this year. This year the cable was destroyed, and it was impossible to repair it during the winter. I applied to the Department of Marine and Fisheries for the use of the steamer ' Minto ' in order to enable the people of Halifax, Newfoundland and Pietou, who deal with the Magdalen islands, to carry on their correspondence. After some difficulty I succeeded in having the ' Minto ' sent to the Magdalen islands. She brought back the answers to the mail, and the trade of the Magdalen islands has profited thereby.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How long has this subsidized line been operating.


Rodolphe Lemieux: This is the first year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many months have the company been performing the service this year?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Since the first of January. Of course they have a contract for the summer service between Fraserville and Tadousac.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Have they a subsidy from the federal government for the summer work?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes, I think it is $6,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And this is the winter work?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Have they been paid anything on this contract?


Rodolphe Lemieux: No.


Adam Brown Crosby: I am very glad to hear that the Postmaster General has been able to make some arrangement for a winter mail service with the Magdalen Islands, and I hope he will be able to continue to do that. It is very essential in the interest of the trade between the Magdalen Islands and the province of Nova Scotia that proper facilities should be provided.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes, there are about 7,000 people on the Magdalen Islands.


John Allister Currie: From the Postmaster General's remarks it appears that

he hopes to establish a winter mail service in the Lower St. Lawrence in future. I should think it would be advisable to take into consideration the giving of a substantial subsidy in order to place a vessel in the service that would be capable of breaking the ice at any stage. Does this contract extend over a period of years or is it just a new contract?


Rodolphe Lemieux: In this case the steamer need not be a regular ice-breaker, because the distances are not great and the circumstances are rather favourable. But, my hon. friend will find in the main estimates a vote of $8,000, or $10,000, for a service in that very portion of the St. Lawrence to give special communication between' the north and 'South shores including Seven Islands, where there is a large business at Clark city. Then, I expect that the Minister- of Trade and Commerce will stipulate with the contractors that they shall put on a substantial boat that will not only afford the facilities, but will give all protection possible to passengers and freight.


William Cameron Edwards: Is not this amount of $4,500 for winter steamship service between Riviere du Loup and Tadousac and other points in the supplementary estimates connected with the services mentioned in the main estimates, items 199, 201, and which total $8,500.


Rodolphe Lemieux: No.	,


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The one is a summer service and the other a winter service.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Mr. Chairman, if you will permit me, my hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. Crosby) spoke a moment ago about winter communications with the Magdalen Islands. I wish to state, in order to let the public know, because I have received a great many inquiries, that it is the intention of . the government to erect a wireless station on the Magdalen Islands in case an accident should happen, as it did happen this year when the cable was broken. But, besides that, I think we should endeavour to give them a mail service in the winter. We have succeeded this winter and I do not see why we could not succeed another year.


Adam Brown Crosby: I am very glad to hear it from the Postmaster General. It is very essential that a service should be maintained during the winter between the Magdalen Islands and the people of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island who are dealing with them.
Trade and commerce-further amount required for salaries of chief inspectors, deputy inspectors, and other employees, rents, wages and contingencies, under the Inspection and Sales and Manitoba Acts, $35,000.


Adam Brown Crosby: Is this in payment of services already performed?
181 _


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The service was more expensive than it was last year, and this is required to carry it on to the end of the current fiscal year. In the main estimates there is $155,000, but for the ensuing year we will have to ask for $175,000.


John Graham Haggart: $48,000 seems an enormous increase. What was the original estimate-about $130,000?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There are three different parts of this estimate.


John Graham Haggart: I see there is an increase of $35,000 for wages. What was the original estimate? *


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The original item, 109 in the main estimates of last year, was $155,000, but the department has found that the increase in the work has been so great that for the ensuing year it has asked for $175,000. A great deal of this oomes back in fees. The increased expenditure is largely due to the increased production of grain and consequently the increased expense of inspection.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is there anything provided in this amount for sending trade representatives to Germany?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, this is for the Grain Inspection Board. It has nothing to do with trade commissioners.


Adam Brown Crosby: I notice that rent is mentioned in this item. Why should there be any discrepancy in the item of rent? I presume, when the estimates were made up last year they knew what the rent was going to be?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The business has increased enormously this year on account of the very large crop and the great movement of grain early in the season. The result has been an increased staff and increased expenses. I am told that there has been an increase in the rent of the offices to accommodate the staff.
Further amount required for trade commissioners and commercial agencies, including expenses in connection with negotiation of treaties, or in extension of commercial relations; miscellaneous advertising and printing, or other expenditure connected with the extension of Canadian trade, $10,000.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The amount in the main estimates was $85,000, and if my hon. friend will look at the main estimates for 1910-11 he will see that $95,000 is asked. The increase has been going on this year and this amount is asked to meet it. In reply to my hon. friend from East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) I would say that at present arrangements are under way to send a trade commissioner to Germany.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is it the intention only to send one commissioner to Germany?



The minister will find there are large numbers of travellers and men engaged in pushing the trade of Germany in Canada according to the press reports, and that they are doing their utmost to extend their trade here, while we have no agent in Germany, and apparently no definite arrangements have been made to send one. Do I understand that this vote is sufficient to send a trade representative to Germany?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is the intention of the government to send a trade representative to Germany very soon, and if it is found necessary we shall send mure than one agent to Germany in view of the new trade conditions between us and that country. It is true that Germany is sending agents to Canada, but I understand these are agents for private firms, and it is to be hoped that Canadian firms will send their agents to Germany as well. The government does intend to establish in Germany a commercial agency which will discharge much the same duties as the German consuls in Canada perform.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Where will these trade representatives be located in Germany?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It is not yet decided, but probably in Hamburg and other chief commercial centres.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What portion of this vote has been expended in the negotiation of the German treaty?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: About $1,700 was expended in connection with all foreign treaties, including the German treaty.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What is the total amount it cost this country to negotiate the treaty with France?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not that information at hand; I think there was a special vote for that.


Mr. SCHAFFNER.: In what way does this vote refer to the Manitoba Grain Act?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have a staff who inspect and look after the grain elevators and warehouses, headed by Mr. Castle. There is also the staff of inspectors under the Inspection and Sale Act headed by Mr. Horn.
Mr. SCHAFFNER, Does mis vote include all the salaries of Mr. Horn and his staff and of Mr. Castle and his staff?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: Does it include Port Arthur? ,


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Yes, Port Arthur and Fort William as well.
Mr, SCHAFFNER. Does it include the payment of the supplementary men who Mr. ARMSTRONG.	:
were appointed when the change was made in the Act?
Mr. FISHER, Yes.


Frederick Laurence Schaffner: What proportion oi the whole amount, approximately, is for grain inspection?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I cannot say that exactly. There were $140,000 spent on grain inspection for the calendar year 1909, which would be up to the 1st of January last.
Mr. SCHAFFNER, Does this vote include the total amount at Port Arthur and Fort William for inspection under what is called the Manitoba Grain Act?
Mr. FISHER, Not only at Port Arthur and Winnipeg, but the whole grain inspection of Canada.


John Graham Haggart: Will the minister explain why he takes a vote for the current year of $15,000 more than he thinks necessary for next year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am informed that there will have to be a supplementary vote for this year. The increased cost of grain inspection is due to the increasing commerce of Canada in grain; but I may point out that most of this money is returned in fees, so that as the expenditure increases the fees increase accordingly.
Dredging - maritime provinces, $125,900 ; dredge vessel repairs, $95,000.


Adam Brown Crosby: I cannot understand why this item of dredge vessel repairs is not itemized so as to give us some idea of what it is for.


William Pugsley: This is the way the vote is always taken, but I can give_ the details: In New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, $27,200; in Nova,Scotia, $12,250; in Manitoba, $650; in British Columbia, $12,000; for labour and materials generally, $19,500; and further amount for labour and materials, $23,200. These are the total requirements for the year ending the 31st of March instant.


John Graham Haggart: To take a vote for labour and materials seems to be a way of getting rid of contracts. That allows you to employ men by the day.


William Pugsley: A good deal of that is expended in our shipyard at Ottawa.


John Graham Haggart: You should specify where it is expended, and how.


William Pugsley: It has never been put in detail.


Adam Brown Crosby: I would like to ask what amount of money out of that is paid in the province of Nova Scotia, to whom it is paid, and for what.	.


William Pugsley: It will take some little time to get this information, but if my hon.

friend will be good enough to send me a memorandum of what he wants, I will get the information from the accountant of the department, giving the names, and the amounts, and where the money is expended.


John Graham Haggart: What was the total amount got last year?


William Pugsley: The total amount for the maritime provinces for the current year was $380,000.


John Graham Haggart: You increased [DOT] our estimated expenditure nearly 50 per cent?


William Pugsley: Something over 25 per cent. One reason was that the vote last year was only about one-half what we required if the dredges were all kept actively in operation, but owing to the condition of the revenue we reduced the estimates. Some $4,000,000 to $5,000,000 were taken off from what we estimated would be required for public works, and the dredging was reduced one-half. But later on in the season, the revenue became better, and where the dredging work was urgent, the time was extended and the work continued.


John Graham Haggart: What is the total expended on the repairs of dredges?


William Pugsley: 


John Graham Haggart: How is it that the repairs cost 100 per cent more than the estimates?


William Pugsley: It is impossible to judge with accuracy, or even approaching accuracy, what the repairs of a dredge will cost. They are very expensive machines to keep up. Hulls have to be rebuilt, buckets replaced, and machinery generally put in order. Boilers have to be repaired or rebuilt. I could give the details if required. The work is all done under the direction of the superintendent of dredges, a very efficient man, Captain Howden, who has been long in the department, and he has very good superintendents under him.


John Graham Haggart: Does it not strike the minister as extraordinary that the repairs for these dredges for doing about $400,000 worth of work cost about $200,000?


William Pugsley: The great expense of dredges is the keeping in repair. They are working under water, they are likely to strike boulders at any time, the buckets are liable to be destroyed and the machinery put out of order. You can never tell with certainty what the expenditure is going to be. While the amount seems large, we have a very large plant. We have from 30 to 40 vessels altogether employed in dredging in the different provinces-dredges belonging to the government.


Clarence Jameson: Are sthey all in fairly good working order?


William Pugsley: Not all. There is one which requires very considerable repairs. Possibly we may have to put it into the scrap-heap. There is another we have decided to abandon. We propose selling the hull, as she is no longer in a sound condition to be operated. With these two exceptions, the plant generally is in pretty good condition.


Clarence Jameson: When we were discussing the item for dredging a few evenings ago, I drew attention to the need of dredging the port of Weymouth. On.' that occasion I was informed by the minister that the quantity necessary to be removed, according to the plan of the department's engineer, was in the neighbourhood of 500,000 cubic yards. I have been urging the hon. minister to make a beginning at least during this year on this work. I have since had communications from the commercial interests of Weymouth, particularly those pngaged in the shipping interests. They tell me that while they would like the work to be done up to the plans of the department, they recognize the very large demands on the department for the use of their dredges, and the fact that the vote must necessarily be limited in amount. They, therefore, would not ask that the entire work proposed by this plan be done m one year, but they are very anxious indeed that a beginning should be made. At the entrance to the port there is a bar which has been made in tile course of many years, and is a serious obstruction to the Shipping. I am informed by vessel owners and vessel charterers that by a very reasonable amount of dredging, that bar can be cut down sufficiently to admit vessels of a tonnage now unable to get over it, and which the needs of shipping in that locality call for. I am requested to urge on the minister that, in view of the fact that he has increased his vote, enlarged his dredging plant, and that, with the exception of two dredges, it is in very fair condition, he should make a beginning this coming season.


William Pugsley: I would like to go on with the dredging at Weymouth, but my hon. friend will see himself that where there are 500,000 cubic yards to be removed, to really do effective work, work which would be satisfactory and which probably would cost 50 cents per cubic yard-that was the tender price-it is a question for grave consideration as to whether the department would be justified in spending one-quarter of a million dollars to improve the harbour. I have already given the matter consideration, and am not without hope that we may be able in the near future to do some work which may result in improvement, but I cannot say when the work will commence.


COMMC NS
Clarence Jameson: I am not asking, nor are the people of Weymouth asking, that this entire 500,000 cubic yards should be removed at this time, but that only a reasonable amount of dredging be done at the entrance to the harbour. The dredging which requires to be done above the bar in the way of straightening the channel might stand for the present. And that, for the time being, can stand. I can assure the minister that, if he will make a beginning, that beginning need not entail a very serious outlay. A comparatively small outlay will improve conditions there wonderfully, and I trust he will not allow The _ plans which have been made, and the estimates of the amount of material to be moved, to frighten him, for we are not asking for that. These plans are very elaborate, and it may be they were made for effect rather than with a view of ever being worked up to, but that they should be held up as a reason why some work should not be undertaken. I do not think that is reasonable or right. We are not asking that the entire plans be worked out, but that a beginning be made, and that the bar at the entrance of the harbour be cut down a reasonable degree so as to allow shipping to pass. I do not think it is fair of the minister to hold up this estimate of 500,000 cubic yards of material to be moved, and a quarter of million dollars spent, when we ask for some dredging. I hope he will not allow that to alarm him out of spending a reasonable amount of money on the entrance to the harbour.


John Graham Haggart: In the absence of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding), I desire to support the observations of my hon. friend from Digby (Mr. Jameson). We are spending large sums of money for such works as the Transcontinental railway, the Hudson Bay railway and others of that kind. But the people of Weymouth, unfortunately, are not reached by any! of these large works.
And, my hon. friend the Minister of Finance, in such cases, has used the argument that the people cannot be expected to pay taxes for works from which they benefit only very indirectly unless they receive a -quid pro quo. It is the duty of the government, according to the argument of the Minister of Finance, to see to it that these parties in the maritime provinces, and especially in the port of Weymouth, are recouped for the expenditures they are making in other parts of the -country by an expenditure for works in which they are locally interested and which they demand as a right from the government.
Public works-chargeable to income-miscellaneous-surveys and inspections, $23,000.


William Pugsley: This is to supplement an appropriation of $60,000 made last session for surveys and inspections in con-Mr. PUGSLEY
nection with rivers and harbours, slides and booms, roads and bridges, and other services. There was expended up to 31st December last, as follows:	In the maritime provinces, $16,086.11; in Quebec, ,$21,768.97; in Ontario, $13,283.00; Manitoba, $'1,654.42; in -Saskatchewan and Alberta, $4,075.63; in British Columbia. $7,452.80; and other expenditures making a total of $74,440.02. This leaves to be pro vided for, $14,440.02. The estimated additional outlay to cover engagements for the months of' January, February and March, 1910, is $8,551.98, making a total of practically the amount of this vote, $23,000, to square the accounts of the year.
Engineering branch-salaries of [DOT] engineers, inspectors, superintendents, draughtsmen, clerks and messengers of outside service, $12,000.


William Pugsley: This is to supplement votes of $145,000 and to make provision for a balance of salaries of engineers and others in the engineering branch of the Public Works Department in connection with the construction and maintenance of harbours and rivers, slides and booms, roads and bridges. The total expenditure to December 31, 1909, was $116,593. On the same -basis, there will be required to the end of the fiscal year $40,200, making a total of $156,793. This gives a balance over the appropriation of $11,793 and we are asking $12,000, thus leaving a smal' margin.
Surveys of Richelieu and Yamaska rivers and their affluents to determine the cost of improved waterways between the river St. Lawrence and Lake Champlain - further amount, $4,000.


William Pugsley: The appropriation for this service was $20,000. The actual expenditure was as follows: Salaries of survey party No. 1 to 28th February, 1910, $11,895.11; 'survey party No. 2 $7,447.75: survey party No. 3, $4,333.76; sundries, $ 147.il; total, $23,623.69.


John Graham Haggart: What is the object of the survey?


William Pugsley: The object is better water connection between the St. Lawrence and Lake Champlain, and also Lake Champlain and the River Yamaska and some other rivers near the lake.


John Graham Haggart: I thought there might be in view the bigger object of making a connection in the future for the improved St. Lawrence canals or the Georgian Bay canal looking to a deep waterway connection with New York. Unless the service contemplates something of that kind, I do not see the object. We may have, certainly we ought to have, a survey of a 22 foot to a 25 foot canal from the

St. Lawrence down, probably by way oi the route that Young used to advocate from Montreal by way of Lake Cham' plain.


William Pugsley: There has been no such survey of recent years; it may have been made a long time ago.


John Graham Haggart: But this one is going on at the present time?


William Pugsley: I think it is a very desirable expenditure in the public interest to ascertain the feasibility of getting a deep waterway and the cost.


John Graham Haggart: I want to know if that is what the money is being expended for?


William Pugsley: Yes.


Adam Brown Crosby: Is this for the purpose of carrying the course of the water from the St. Lawrence to Lake Champlain or from Lake Champlain to the St. Lawrence?


William Pugsley: Lake Champlain runs to the St. Lawrence. We do not propose to alter the course of the flow of the river; this is only to get a better navigable channel to connect Lake Champlain with the St. Lawrence. There is in connection with that another proposition to cut a channel through from near Montreal across to the Richelieu river which would shorten the distance by about 100 milesi, and make the water route from Montreal to New York a little shorter than the railway haul.


Adam Brown Crosby: That is the difficulty. [DOT]Who are going to benefit by that, ourselves or the Americans? The whole thing it seems to me would tend towards diverting the trade of the St. Lawrence to New York. Practically all of Lake Champlain is in the United States, so we would facilitate the diversion of trade into the United States, and that seems to me to be a very risky thing for us to do. We have evidence that some of the great steamship lines plying between the old country and New York have been compelled to give up the St. Lawrence, and possibly if they can get the trade diverted, and have it go by Lake Chamolain to New York they will not come up the St. Lawrence.


William Pugsley: I do not think the committee will be very much alarmed at any project which may result in giving opportunities for the farmers and producers generally to get their produce to a great city like New York for sale, but we are not proposing anything of that kind, because we are making a survey to see the feasibility of the channel.


Mr. LANCASTER.: Does not my hon. friend see that there is an objection to improving a waterway from Canada to New
York? On general principles that would seem to be objectionable whether foT the benefit of the farmers or of anybody else.
I should think our farmers would be patriotic enough to want to improve our water-waysjor the benefit of Canadian cities; not of the United States cities. The very statement of my hon. friend seems to me to put this item out of consideration by this committee instead of leading us to approve it. He said it would improve the water communication from that part of the country to New York. We have not yet annexed New York. I hope we will do so, I hope the Union Jack will be flying over New York some day, but until we do annex it, I do not think we should spend the money of the people in improving such a waterway.
At six o'clock, the House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILLS.
[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (No. 115) to incorporate the St. Lawrence Power Transmission Company, Limited.-Mr. Pardee.
Mr. LENNOX.: I presume there is no object in taking up time to-night with this Bill.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Let it stand.
Progress reported.


NORTHERN QUEBEC COLONIZATION.
[Stage Direction]
House in committee on Bill (No. 152) to incorporate the Northern Quebec Colonization Railway Company.-Mr. J. P. Turcotte.
On section 11-agreements with other companies,	'
Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: In the 21st line the words ' commissioners of the ' are struck out. Shall the section as amended be carried?


William Pugsley: Is that not a mistake? What power would the company have to enter into an agreement with the commissioners of the National Transcontinental Railway? It would be the government of Canada, which would enter into an agreement with respect to the National Transcontinental railway.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: It would be the lessees

the Grand Trunk Pacific Company,


William Pugsley: The purposes of section 361 are those of amalgamation, and I think we had better make it read that they may enter into an agreement with the

government in respect to the National Transcontinental railway.


Haughton Lennox: They had it at first ' with the commissioners of the National Transcontinental railway ' and then they struck out the words ' commissioners of the ' and left it ' with the National Transcontinental railway '. I venture to say that they could not make a contract with the railway, and that it should he made to read ' with the government of Canada ' as the minister says.


William Pugsley: With the government of Canada in respect to the National Transcontinental railway.


Haughton Lennox: I move that we add the words ' with the government of Canada in respect to the National Transcontinental railway '.


William Pugsley: I think it would be better to leave it out altogether. The section provides for two companies amalgamating and that is not applicable to the government road at all.


Haughton Lennox: It would be better to leave it out.


Gilbert Howard McIntyre: It is a Bill from the Senate and an amendment to that extent might be irregular.


William Pugsley: Better let the Bill stand.
Progress reported.


JAMES BAY&quot; AND EASTERN RAIL- WAY COMPANY.
[Stage Direction]
On the order being called for the consideration of Bill (No. 128) to incorporate the James Bay and Eastern Railway Company.-Mr. Girard.
Haughton Lennox: I would like to have the Minister of Railways here when we are discussing this Bill. It would be a waste of time to take it up to-night. I move that progress be reported.
Progress reported.


RAINY RIVER RADIAL RAILWAY.
[Stage Direction]
On the order being called: House in committee on Bill (No. 108) to incorporate the Rainy River Radial Railway Company. -Mr. Conmee.
Haughton Lennox: The Minister of Railways should be present when we are discussing this Bill. I move that progress be reported.
Progress reported.


CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READINGS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 137) respecting the Erie, London and Tilsonburg Railway Company.- Mr. A. H. Clarke.
William Pugsley: Bill (No. 130) respecting the Vancouver Island and Eastern Railway Company.- Mr. Ralph Smith.
Bill (No. 139) respecting the Bay of Quinte Railway Company.-Mr. Talbot.
Bill (No. 147) for the relief of Archibald Laurie.-Mr. Congdon.
Bill (No. 148) for the relief of Bernard Shea.-Mr. Rankin.
Bill (No. 149) for the relief of Clara Louise Holden.-Mr. Rankin.
Bill (No. 106) respecting the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company.-Mr. Nesbitt.
Bill (No. 129) to incorporate the Ontario and Ottawa Railway Company.-Mr. Low.
Bill (No. 156) to incorporate the Wey-bum Security Bank.-Mr. Turriff.
Bill (No. 161) respecting the Sovereign Trust Company.-Mr. Nesbitt.


SECOND READINGS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 154) an Act respecting the Northern Empire Railway Company.-Mr. White (Victoria).
Bill (No. 162) an Act for the relief of Alexander Augustus Barthelmes.-Mr. Martin (Regina).
Bill (No. 160) an Act respecting the Ottawa, Broekville and St. Lawrence Railway Company.-Mr. Martin (Regina).
Bill (No. 167) an Act to incorporate the Montreal, Kapitachuan and Rupert's Bay Railway Company.-Mr. Gervais.
Bill (No. 169) an Act respecting the Montreal and Southern Counties Railway Company.-Mr. Geoffrion.
Bill (No. 170) an Act to incorporate the Catholic Episcopal Corporation of Timisk-aming.-Mr. Gordon (Nipissing).

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply.
['I may cite a case in point. There is a town in my county called', 'Byng Inlet to which there is a mail service north by the Canadian Pacific railway, I think, on alternate days. There is no return service south, and a letter from Byng Inlet to Parry Sound goes north to Sudbury, from there to North Bay, from there to Toronto, and back again to Parry Sound. In that way it takes six or seven days for the letter to reach its destination, whereas a man could walk down the track and deliver the letter in a few hours. That is one ease, but there are a great many others, and I think it would be well for the minister to have the inspector look into the whole mail service of that district.\nSoma resolutions reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Fisher, House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.', 'Monday, March 21, 1910.']
William Pugsley: At the recess we were discussing a small amount required to pay for surveys of the Richelieu and Yam-aska rivers. An appropriation was voted last session, and there is a small amount now due the surveyors.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Was that by the resident engineers?


William Pugsley: There was a special survey party made up for this work. It was the work of surveying the Richelieu from its mouth up to its outlet from lake Champlain. And also the Yamaska and tributaries with the view of ascertaining the possibility of connecting those rivers and what it would cost.
Experimental farms and additional branch stations-further amount required, $25,900.

Mr: GEO. TAYLOR. I understand that these items are duplicated in the main estimates not passed. A great many members want to speak on these, and I presume they can do that on the main estimates.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: In the main estimates for the ensuing year there will be similar items and ample opportunity for discussion.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why do you require this additional amount?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: With regard to the experimental farm we found that nearly $10,000 had lapsed in last year's vote, and we had to pay out of this year's appropriations. In consequence of the death of Dr. Fletcher, I was obliged to appoint two men, an entymologist and a botanist. They asked for a considerable amount of apparatus, and books, amounting to nearly $5,000. After careful consideration by Dr. Saunders, he recommended that the equipment should be supplied. The result of these two is a deficiency of $15,000. There was an expenditure of $2,000 or $3,000 in preparation for the purpose of some additional branch farms in the west. The money was spent in obtaining information and inspecting sites. Again, I have been doing extra work in connection with tobacco growing which, in the aggregate, has cost $5,000. This accounts for about $23,000, and the balance of $2,000 is for small amounts to close up the business of the year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The minister says he had to take out of this year's vote to make up for last year's accounts. There is no justification for that. The money voted for this year should not "be used for last year's accounts.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: 
Thomas Simpson Sproule: The fact that the Auditor General allows this does not make it right.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: But it shows that it is a practice that is followed.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: A great many practices have been begun by this government that we think are verv wrong, and this is one of them. I do not think there is any justification for paying money after the vote has lapsed. Money is voted by parliament for a given year, and it is certainly not proper to use the money of one year for the purpose of another.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How many additional experimental farms have been established this year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: One in Prince Edward Island, and one in Rosthern, Saskatchewan. I have had an officer investigating sites that have been suggested in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec and Nova Scotia,


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Did the minister establish a farm in any part of western Ontario as he promised last year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No, and I have none vet in view. I think I said that I hoped to see an experimental farm established in new Ontario. But we hqve not yet reached the point where it seemed well to establish such a farm. I think there ought to be one, perhaps two, experimental farms in the northern part of New Ontario, but it seems better to wait until the construction of the Transcontinental is further advanced, and the course of settlement is moTe clearly decided.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The minister gave us to understand that he would establish an experimental station in western Ontario, not only to assist the tobacco growers-


Sydney Arthur Fisher: That is established.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I asked the minister about that.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I did not understand that that was what was referred to. I established a station for experimental tobacco work in Essex county, and also a similar station in Quebec. These account for about $5,000 of expenditure.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I understood that the establishment of a fruit station in western Ontario would be taken up seriously, and I would urge the minister to investigate with that view. I think he is hardly justified in waiting until the Transcontinental line is located before he locates an experimental farm in the northern part of New Ontario. I hope he will look into the matter.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I will do so gladly.


Mr. BURRELL.: What steps has the minister taken in regard to an experimental station in the semi-arid belt of British Columbia? The statement made by the minister on a previous occasion led the people to hope that a station would be established there this year. Many requests have been made for the establishment of

such a station. I should like very much to have a statement from the minister, and of a favourable character.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I am pushing that as rapidly as possible. I have been waiting for some little information, which I would not like to announce at present, as to a particular site. I have had careful examination made of a number of sites, and have gone over the report of the officer who examined them. In view of this, and some information that I acquired when in that country, I hope before the end of this year that the matter will be settled. I had not intended to go into it on this item; perhaps it woirld be better to leave a fuller explanation until the main estimates are before the committee.


Mr. T. CHISHOLM.: Injustice is often done to inland constituencies in our part of Ontario. A great deal of money is spent by the Dominion for harbour improvements to the benefit of certain ridings, while inland ridings get nothing at all. I have been many years in this House, and have asked for several things, and have failed to get any grant that I ever asked for. East Huron is as good a riding as there is in Canada, and an experimental farm there would yield as good results as in any other place I know of. A great many hundreds of millions of dollars have been voted away since I oame into this House. I have asked once or twice for little things that I wished to have done for East Huron, but no request that I have ever made has been granted. Now I would ask for an experimental fruit farm in East Huron. Because of the peculiar position we occupy-elevation, the proximity of the lake, and the nature of the soil- we have, I believe, the finest apple-growing section in Canada. 1 have heard others claim something of that kind for their localities, but, for a particular kind of apple, the Northern Spy, I think we have the best condition to be found in the country. The Northern Spy ripens in East Huron exactly at the season when nature provides it with all the benefits which in other localities have to be procured by means of artificial cold storage. The farmers there, however, do not know what to do. They do not understand spraying their orchards or how to get rid of the codling moth, and other pests. I am sure that if a small experimental fruit farm were established there-if it were only a farm of ten or fifteen acres-and handled properly, it would mean a great deal to the people of that part of the country. I know that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) would like to do what is fair and right, and I would ask him to remember that an inland riding like mine, that has been paying and paying for years, ought Mr. BURRELL.
as a matter of the barest justice, to get something. I would ask the minister to kindly remember that there is an old man up in' East Huron, and that he would like to get something for East Huron before he dies.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I want to assure my hon. friend that I never forget, I shall not say the old man, but my hon. friend, who is so vigorous and young notwithstanding his grey hairs, the representative of East Huron (Mr. T. Chisholm). When the main estimate for the experimental farms for next year comes up, I will be glad to have a very thorough discussion of this whole question of branch farms. I look forward to it with interest, and will be glad to have suggestions such as my hon. friend has made in reference to what I consider a very important branch of the service.


Austin Levi Fraser: In what position is the farm which the government is establishing in Prince Edward Island?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The farm is in our possession, the buildings are fairly towards completion, and I think the house will be ready for the farm manager before spring. A good deal of fencing was done last fall, the arrangement of the farm is completed, the plots, &c., have been laid out, and a good deal of ploughing has been done, so that I think a large part of the farm will be under cultivation this spring. The farm consists of between 50 and 75 acres just outside of Charlottetown.
Exhibitions-further amount required (including Governor General's warrant for $25,000), $75,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How do you come to have a Governor General's warrant?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The decision to exhibit at the Brussels exhibition was not arrived at until after the last session, and in order to move our exhibit from Seattle to Brussels we had to take a Governor General's warrant. Then an additional $50,000 is required because we had expected at the time we took the warrant that parliament would have voted money for this purpose before this, and as the work had to go on we have been obliged to do a good deal of it on credit.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: What exhibitions will be participated in this year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: Last summer we were at Seattle. This coming spring the International Exhibition in Brussels opens, and we have arranged for a Canadian pavilion there. Lately we have been invited and strongly urged by a very influential committee in London to take part in what is known as the Festival of Empire at the Crystal Palace, and the government has decided that it would be very unfortunate if at such a celebration as that, Canada was not represented. We are just now taking

the steps necessary to be represented, and that and the Brussels exhibition are the only two I know of in the ensuing year.
Immigration-further amount recxuired for contingencies in Canadian, British and foreign agencies, and general immigration expenses, $60,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the total amount of the vote for immigration, and of what is it made up?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: There is one item :
Salaries of agents and employees in Canada, Great Britain and foreign countries, $200,000.
-Then there is:
Contingencies in Canadian, British and foreign agencies and general immigration expenses, $700,000.
Making a total of $900,000. This addition of $60,000 will make $960,000. That is for the current fiscal year ending March 31.


George Taylor: What are you asking for next year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We are asking $900,000 for next year.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I would ask if it is the intention of the government to send immigration agents to Germany during this coming year?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I have not inquired -of my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Oliver), but I think, speaking subject to correction, that I heard him make a reference to it the other day. I will not be positive.
Public works-capital-harbours and rivers -Port Arthur and Fort William-harbour and river improvements, $425,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is the explanation of that very large amount?


William Pugsley: This is to cover the following progress estimates, certified to by the chief engineer, for works performed under contracts in force at Port Arthur and Fort William during the fiscal year in excess of those covered by the appropriation of $600,000 which was made by parliament at the session of the year 1908-9; also drawbacks which have been retained on the works and which, of course, have to be paid. First, I will give the different contracts showing the amounts which are due to the different companies. There was a contract dated June 27, 1906, with the Great Lakes Dredging Company for dredging in the Kaministiquia and Mission rivers. For the September account there is $8,964.93; October account, $592.20; November, $1,464. which with a ten per cent drawback amounting to $4,526.17, makes $15,490. 94. Then, there is another contract, dated June 4, 1909, with the same company for dredging on the Kaministiquia and Mission
rivers. That was a contract for additional depth. Hon. gentlemen will remember that at the last session I stated that it was proposed to increase the depth of water there from 22 feet, as had been originally designed, to 25 feet, which seemed to be regarded as necessary to accommodate the larger lake steamers which had recently been built for traffic on the lakes. The September account amounted to $32,714.37; October, $5,925.44; November, $959.42, ten per cent drawback, $16,326.39, making a total of $55,925.63. There was another contract, dated the 27th of February, 1909, for dredging out the terminal basin in connection with the terminals of the Grand Trunk Pacific Company. The September account was $48,127.22; October, $116,267.71; November, $102,495.58; December, $26,743.98; ten per cent drawback, $14,049.40, making a total of $307,783.89. There was a contract with Mr. W. J. Hogan for the Port Arthur breakwater. There is a balance due to the 30t-h September of $31,760. Adding that to the previous amount makes the total $410,960.46. Then, there is a contract, dated June 28, with Mr. W. H. Phinn, of Welland, for dredging at Port Arthur. That was dredging that was regarded as urgent in order to give the requisite accommodation at Port Arthur. There is an amount due to Mr. Phinn of $10,263.82 for work done from the 1st October to the 22nd October. That makes the total amount due contractors for works performed in excess of those covered by the appropriation of $600,000 of $421,224.28. In addition to this, there is a progress estimate up to October 30, 1909, of $16,168 for timber supplied for Fort William harbour improvements; that is for revetment wall, which is being constructed along the face of the harbour on the Mission river. This estimate was only received by the accountant on the 16th February, 191u. If I had received that item, I would have had that added to the supplementanes. However, that can be paid out of the main estimates next year. We will still be short about $12,000 for the closing up of these accounts. We have only asked for $425,000, while the total amount is a little over $437,000. We had on hand on the 17th February, to make further payment for timber, land expropriated, engineering expenses and contingencies, $15,335.69. Hon. gentlemen may ask how it was that so much was allowed to be done in excess of the appropriation. The reason is this: At the last session of parliament we cut down the appropriation to the smallest possible figure. I had myself thought that with the appro-, priation which we had it would be impossible to have the work proceed throughout the season as vigorously as it ought to proceed, but my hon. friend the Minister of Finance thought we should curtail, as far as possible, and we did so. Later on in the season, we were pressed very earn-

estly by the Grand Trunk Pacific Company to complete the work of dredging up to the very large elevator which the Grand Trunk Pacific is erecting, and after discussing the matter in council, it was decided that it would be wise to allow the contractors to push the work with all possible expedition. The contractors had contracts for the whole work, and it did not make very much difference to the country whether the work was done this year or next year, while the Grand Trunk Pacific represented to us the enormous importance of having a channel dredged through from the Mission river to the pier forming part of the elevator system, either by the 1st of October or very early in October. It was noped by the Grad Trunk Pacific that they would be able to handle the grain of the western country tributary to their railway through the outlet at Fort William.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much did they handle-one small train load only?


William Pugsley: They did not, as it happened, but I felt that as far as my Department was concerned, we ought not to be behind. I gave the assurance to the Grand Trunk Pacific that as far as we were concerned we would do our part.


George Taylor: Are they carrying gram there now?


William Pugsley: I do not know. I am bound to say that we did our part, we dredged out the channel so that by the middle of October steamers could go right in through the Mission river and up to the Grand Trunk Pacific elevator.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Was the dredging done by tender?


William Pugsley: Yes, the contracts w'ere all given by tender.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: At how much?


William Pugsley: There were different prices. The contract for the terminal basin was let at sixteen cents. Then, a large portion of the work is being done at eleven cents, and a portion at nine cents. They put on one powerful hydraulic dredge to expedite the work, but most of the dredges are of the ordinary dipper type. We did not contemplate last session that we would have to do any great additional dredging at Port Arthur, but it was brought to our attention that a company was erecting a large grain elevator, and unless dredging was done the lake vessels would not be able to reach it. In view of the fact that at Port Arthur, and Fort William there converges all the grain trade of the west during the season of navigation, and that there was likely to be a large crop, we thought we should provide the necessary facilities. Tenders were invited, and Mr. Phinn, at thirteen cents per cubic yard, Mr. PUGSLEY.
was the lowest tenderer. Mr. Hogan ha3 had for some time a contract for the building of the breakwater at Port Arthur which will form part of the larger harbour improvements which were strongly recommended by the Transportation Commission, and which are essential for the protection of the harbour. We entered into a contract for the building of a revetment wall or system of wharfage along the Mission rivey in connection with the Grand Trunk Pacific terminals, and we required the Grand Trunk Pacific to convey to the Crown the title to a thirty foot strip along the harbour front so that it may be open to shipping generally at rates to be controlled by the government. We think it desirable to close up those accounts before the end of the present fiscal year.


William Wright: The vote in the main estimates last year was $600,000, and with this vote the expenditure will be considerably over $1,000,000 which seems a large sum of money for one particular place.


William Pugsley: There are two places, Port Arthur and Fort William.


William Wright: The vote is under the same head, and it is practically the one city. This expenditure at the one place makes it very diffcult to get grants for necessary public works at other places in the province of Ontario. What will be the total cost of these works?


William Pugsley: The total estimated cost, so far as the government is concerned, is in the vicinity of $5,000,000 or $6,000,000.


William Wright: How much has been already spent?


William Pugsley: I should think something over one-half. It must be borne in mind that Port Arthur and Fort William are at the gateway of our great western country which is developing with marvellous rapidity. These two cities are growing at an equally marvellous rate, and the business which has developed there is simply enormous. It is a national port. The improvements at Mission river will extend for six miles along the front and there are industries springing up everywhere. The Grand Trunk Pacific elevator now under construction is to have an initial capacity of 3,000,000 bushels, and their plans contemplate an elevator capacity of 30,000,000 bushels. At Fort William and Port Arthur there is an elevator capacity in the vicinity of 40,000,000 bushels. I believe the Grand Trunk Pacific terminals will be the finest in the world. I do not believe that anywhere in the world will there be a better layout of terminals than in connection with the Grand Trunk Pacific, unless it be the terminals of the Canadian Pacific railway, which are also at Fort William. The Canadian Pacific railway have bought considerable property to enlarge their terminals,



[Stage Direction]
and they are taking means to accommodate this vast traffic expeditiously and cheaply.
George Taylor: Enlarging the spout?


William Pugsley: 
William Pugsley: It would require as much dredging as if they handled 50,000,000 ' bushels.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Not at all. There was no necessity for bringing in the largest boat for that small amount of grain, and as a matter of fact millions of bushels have been shipped from Port Arthur by vessels drawing less than 18 feet. Could it not have been foreseen that it would be required and submitted to this House? Then the House could have considered it, and would doubtless, if it were needed, have voted the money. But not a word of it was mentioned to the House or the country. We were told that $600,000 was all that would be required for the year, and that was granted without any dissent; and later the government commenced dredging and working on the breakwater and the revetment wall at Port Arthur, all of which the engineer who visited the locality and made his survey must have known and foreseen last year, because the works- there were laid out years ago, and it was well known what improvements would be required from year to year for several years. But in undertaking new work amounting to nearly half a million dollars, and in going on with the expenditure when there was not a dollar voted by parliament for it, the Minister of Public Works has introduced
a very pernicious and improper principle, which parliament should not tolerate. If there had been a storm or an accident^ that necessitated the work being done in a hurry, I could understand the hon. minister resorting to a Governor General's warrant. But these works are not of that character; they were known beforehand, and under these circumstances to expend $425,000 without the consent of parliament is unjustifiable. The minister might just as well have expended as many millions; the principle is the same. I think this is the first Minister of Public Works I have ever known to make such a proposal in this House, and parliament will be doing a very improper thing if it consents to it.


William Pugsley: My hon. friend assumes that this work has been paid for. It has not been paid for, and that is the reason we are asking for this vote.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Even if it is not paid for, you have committed the country, and it must be paid for.


William Pugsley: I am only correcting a mistake the hon. gentleman made. My hon. friend also says that we have entered on the construction of this breakwater without the consent of parliament. This breakwater has been under construction for three years, and there have been votes for it each year. The contractor is to build the breakwater, and he could go on and finish it in one year if he chose, but he would have to wait for his money until parliament voted it. If a contractor for any work carried it on more rapidly than we anticipated we could force him to wait until parliament voted the necessary money to pay him for the work done. But we thought that was not desirable. . As these contractors, in order to give these much-needed facilities, went on much faster than we had anticipated, we have thought it only right and desirable in the interest of the country that the work of the year should be closed up, and that we should ask parliament for an amount sufficient to close up these accounts before the end of the present month.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: How much of this $425,000 represents new contracts entered into by the minister?


William Pugsley: The $15,490.94 was under an old contract of June 27, 1906. There is $307,783.89 due under a contract dated February 27, 1909. That was before we had taken our appropriation from parliament. This is practically a part of the original contract. The only difference is that we are digging to a depth of three feet beyond what we had originally intended. But it is all part of the original scheme.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How was it that the minister could not have provided for that last year when he let the contract?


William Pugsley: I have already explained that we thought $600,000 would be all we could afford last year; but if the contractors chose to go on and do more than the appropriation called for, they could do so under the contract.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What was that contract for?


William Pugsley: For dredging. There was another contract on the 4th of June last. They had a right under the contract, if they chose to employ dredges enough, to do the whole work this year.


William Cameron Edwards: About how much would that have amounted to?


William Pugsley: Probably two or three million dollars. This work, proceeding with ordinary rapidity, would run over three or four years Then there is an amount of $31,000 to pay Mr. Hogan. That is under an old contract made in 1906.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much was voted last year on the Hogan contract?


William Pugsley: The vote was a lump sum of $600,000 for improvements at Port Arthur, which included dredging and the breakwater. I say frankly to the committee that when, during last summer, our revenues began to improve, I felt that I would not be doing my duty to the country, in view of the rapid development of the country and the necessity of providing as soon as possible the requisite accommodation, if I had said to these people, who had contracts and who were entitled to go on and do the work, though they might have to wait until parliament had voted the money to pay for it, 'You must stop work.' On the other hand, I allowed them to go on, and I believe parliament will ratify what was done and provide the money this vear, instead of compelling the contractors to wait until next year. Of course, there is the question of interest, but it was much better we allowed them to go ahead with the work and now pay them, and so close up the account for the year.


Austin Levi Fraser: I think that the principle laid down by my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) is perfectly correct. Parliament is called once a year to vote money to be expended on public works and other necessities of administration. Parliament granted $600,000 for this work and the minister spent $425,000 more than we voted. That over expenditure was an open violation of the first principles of responsible government. Why this farce of our coming here to vote Mr. PUGSLEY.
these expenditures at all if the ministers can afterwards spend as much money as they like regardless of our vote. This is a matter which should engage the attention of every member of parliament, because it strikes at the very root of parliamentary authority. Let the minister of any department go on spending 80 or 90 per cent more than the amount we authorized him to spend, and what becomes of parliamentary control? If we go through the different items, I have no doubt that we will find many millions of dollars spent without any parliamentary vote. It seems to me that we ought not for a moment to sanction anything of the kind. We ought at least to stick to first principles and see that no money is expended unless authorized by parliament except in some very extreme and unforeseen emergencies.


John Allister Currie: I was not here when this discussion began, but as I understand something about the work done up there, perhaps a word from me, as an independent outsider, will show that there are certain mitigating circumstances in this case. Fort William and Port Arthur are two great harbours of Ontario, and certain works were planned to be done at these harbours extending over many years. Parliament votes a certain amount for these works every year, and, as I understand, the work has been anticipated. But if the minister can have the work done in two years instead of four, I think the country will gain by having that much earlier the use of the harbours and those improvements. If these works could all be done in one year, that would be still a greater benefit. The trade has grown so enormously that the facilities at Fort William and Port Arthur are altogether inadequate, and if the business continues to grow, any delay in the prosecution of the government works will cause great injury to shippers at the head of the lake.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What would the observations of the hon. member for North Simcoe (Mr. Currie) lead to if they were made generally applicable? Last year we voted altogether $100,000,000. Out of that amount we voted for Port Arthur and Fort William $600,000, but we spent during the year $1,025,000, or we spent nearly $2 for every one that parliament voted. Surely that extra expenditure was not expenditure which could not have been foreseen with the exercise of a little good judgment and foresight. Surely parliament should have been asked to vote that money before it was expended. Suppose the same principle were carried out all along the line and that our revenue had fallen off, and suppose we found ourselves at the end of the year with an expenditure of $200,000,000 when we had only voted $100,000,000, what

would then be the financial- condition of the country. I am not objecting to any reasonable expenditure, but 1 am objecting to such excessive expenditure not authorized by parliament. When we find a minister spending two dollars for every one we voted, it is time that parliament should express in no doubtful terms its condemnation of such conduct. It is a violation of the principle of constitutional government.


William Pugsley: If that be so, how is it that every year since confederation we have voted supplementary estimates for the current year?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: We vote them before the money is expended.


William Pugsley: No, we vote them to pay the debts due on the 31st March, which were not provided for by parliamentary sanction.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In some cases that is done, but only in exceptional cases It is done to meet expenditures which could not have been anticipated at the time the estimates were brought down, but which had to be incurred owing to urgent need. But that is not the case here. In this case parliament voted the money which the government asked for, parliament in so doing exercised its judgment and understood that the vote should not be exceeded, but here we have the minister spending two dollars for every one voted, and then asking parliament to condone his conduct by voting money to meet the deficiency. This is not a case of a sudden and unforeseen emergency. Such a case as that would justify the expenditure.


William Pugsley: For such cases you get a Governor General's warrant.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: They may be provided for by Governor General's warrant or otherwise, and parliament will overlook a great deal in consideration of the circumstances; but in such a case as this, any intelligent engineer should have known what amount would be required and have furnished an estimate for that amount. How many more dredges did they put on during the year than they expected to put on at the beginning?


William Pugsley: One very powerful suction dredge which they bought for that purpose.	.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many more have they?


William Pugsley: Five more.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where a contract has been made, and it is expected that certain amount of work will be done during the year, and parliament has voted the money,
if the amount were over-run a little, parliament would not object to that. But it is carrying it too far, and is defying the fundamental principles of parliamentary government when very large expenditures are made, and then the minister comes in an unconcerned, commonplace way, and says: The money is spent, and it will have to be voted. Suppose every minister did the same thing, is it not easy to see to what abuses it would lead? The Minister of Public Works (Mr. Pugsley) has acquired the reputation of being very strong-willed, and of taking his own way, whether right or wrong, doing what he feels disposed to do regardless of parliament. Both the House, and the country are taking note of this. The hon. minister may carry this out to a limited extent, but a day of retribution will come when the public disapproval will be visited upon him and hi3 colleagues, for an abuse that ought not to be tolerated by parliament.


William Pugsley: I quite agree that the government ought not to engage in any work not authorized by parliament. But parliament has over and over again sanctioned this great work at Port Arthur and Fort William; parliament has been fully informed of the expenditure from year to year. The work has been carried on according to a design prepared by the engineers in conjunction with the railway companies which are making their termini at Fort William and Port Arthur. Parliament has been informed, substantially, what this is going to cost. Therefore, this puts the present case entirely aside from the cases to which the hon. member (Mr. Sproule) has referred, of the government engaging in new work without the sanction of parliament.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is not the dredging of the Grand Trunk Pacific harbour new work ?


William Pugsley: No. How in the world can you develop a harbour on Mission river unless you have a turning basin?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why did not the minister ask for the money for that if he knew it was to be done?


William Pugsley: Let me tell the hon. member what occurred. Early in the year, Mr. Chamberlin, of the Grand Trunk Pacific, said to me: 'We expect to take part in moving the crops this year


Thomas Simpson Sproule: About what time was this?


William Pugsley: May or June. He said they expected to move the crops over their road by October 1. The line was to be finished from Edmonton to Winnipeg, and also the branch from Lake Superior Junction to Fort William, and they were informed by the commissioners of the Trans-

continental that their part of the work necessary for this purpose would be finished. He represented that it would be most unfortunate if the Grand Trunk Pacific could not utilize its elevator at Fort William, and the only way by which it could be utilized would be by dredging the channel-I think about half a mile-between the Mission river and the elevator. I told Mr. Chamberlin that I did not know that 1 could do this, as it might cost more money than the government could afford to spend that year. He urged upon me that it would be a most deplorable thing if, by reason of the delay of the government in this dredging work, the Grand Trunk Pacific was not able to handle the crop of 1909. I brought the matter before my colleagues, especially Sir Richard Cartwright, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who keeps in touch more especially with the trade of the country. I found he was strongly impressed with the rapidity with which the trade there was developing, and with the importance of doing everything we reasonably could to give the requisite facilities at Port Arthur and Fort William. I sent for the contractor, and was informed by one of the gentlemen in charge of the contracting work that it would be utterly impossible for them to make the connection between Mission river and the elevator by dredging the channel-because it was an entirely new channel-unless they purchased a very powerful suction dredge, and they could only get such a dredge in the United States. I conferred again with my colleagues, presenting the whole matter to them, and they concurred in the view that in these pressing and urgent circumstances, if the contractor could, by bringing in an additional dredge, accomplish what the Grand Trunk Pacific desired, and what seemed to be in the interest of the whole country, and especially of the west, should be accomplished of having this route opened for traffic by the 1st of October, it was desirable to allow the dredging contractors to put another dredge upon the work. With that encouragement they went to the United States, bought a powerful suction dredge, brought it in, paid the duties on it, and put it at work. And, with this dredge and the others they have a very large plant of six different dredges. They were able to dredge out the channel, and make a connection with the elevator so that steamers could go from the Mission river to the elevator. We did our work, and did it in anticipation of it being necessary for the companies to handle the grain in time for that season, and I am proud that our department did this work on time, and accomplished what we assured the Grand Trunk Pacific would be done. But it was only by the contractor putting forth additional effort, and buy-Mr. PUGSLEY.
ing this extra plant that the work was accomplished. The hon. member for Bast Grey (Mr. Sproule), says:	Suppose the
revenues had declined? In that case I doubt very much if we should have allowed the work to go on as we did. We should probably have said to the contractors: ' You will have to stop work on the Grand Trunk Pacific elevator channel, for, much as we desire to give connection to that elevator this season yet, in the state of the revenues, we do not think it desirable in the public interest to go ahead. But the revenues began to improve and remained buoyant, so I took the responsibility of ordering this work, in connection with my colleagues, and particularly with the Minister of Trade and Commerce, Sir Richard Cartwright, than whom there is no more prudent man in the country. I think parliament should say we have done the right thing. It makes no difference whether we provide for the work now or next year, or last year. For it must be borne in mind that these contractors had a contract for an area-not for a season, but for the entire work-and they were entitled to proceed with it as rapidly as they chose, but always subject to their being allowed to wait until parliament should appropriate the money to make the payment. It is, as the hon. member for North Simcoe (Mr. [DOT]T. A. Currie) has said to the committee. If a public work involved an expenditure of $1,000,000,, if it were in the hands of a contractor who was expected to finish $500,000 of the work in a season would there be any quarrel with him because he does building to the extent of $750,000? The contractor puts on a large force of men, employs the best of machinery, and gets along with the buildipg to the extent of $750,000. Is there any violation of the principle of responsible government in allowing him to do that? Is there any encroachment on the law of parliament? It would be my duty as minister to say to parliament that the contractor had gone on more rapidly than we expected, and I am sure parliament would cheerfully grant the necessary money to pay him. It is exactly the same in this case. Parliament had given its sanction to the full performance of these contracts.


George Taylor: The member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) is perfectly correct in what he said. The Minister of Public Works has gone the wrong way about getting his money. If he had had this statement in the main estimates for next year it could have been included in the Supply Bill which was passed the other day and the money would have been available sooner than it will be in this way because it will now be impossible to include this in a Supply Bill before the first of April. If he had asked for this money

in that way there -would have been no question about it.


William Cameron Edwards: I agree with the principle advanced by the members tor Grey and Kings, Prince Edward Island. We are here to decide on how we shall spend so many millions of dollars. We 'have so many millions at our disposal and according to the judgment of the House the money is divided and expended in different parts of the country for necessary public works. If going over these estimates means anything it means that they are submitted to the judgment of the House and the money is divided according to the best judgment of the majority of the members. The principle laid down by the minister to-night is in effect that if after the supplies are granted the revenues increase, he as Minister of Public Works has a perfect right to expend the increased revenue without applying to or getting the sanction of parliament for the expenditure.


William Pugsley: I did not say that, I said that I might be justified in allowing a contractor to proceed with his work more rapidly.


William Cameron Edwards: It is not a question ot whether this work is necessary at Fort William and Port Arthur; W'e will grant that it is, and that much more money should be expended there. The question is whether a minister should take it upon himself after the money of the country has been divided, to sepnd hundreds of thousands of dollars without receiving the sanction of parliament. For instance, last year I asked the minister to spend a few hundred dollars in my riding, but he told me the money had been expended and that there was no money available for that particular work. He did not say it was unnecessary or not in the interests of the people. I contend that in the expenditure of this money I have the right, as any member has, to lay the claims of mv county for a fair share of this money before this House, and to let the judgment of the House say whether or not that money should be expended. I object to the principle of a minister of the Crown taking it upon himself to expend several hundred thousand dollars for a work no matter how necessary it may be without having received the sanction of parliament. The minister has referred to the erecting of a public building to cost $2,000,000 and argues that he would be justified in going beyond the appropriation for a certain year if the contractor had gone beyond the amount voted. I do not think that could be done without infringing on the rights of other parts of the country to a fair share of the money. While I believe it is very necessary to have this work done, I wish to
put myself on record as being opposed on principle to a minister expending some $400,000 more than the amount to which this House gave its sanction.


John Allister Currie: The minister has neglected to state that a commission sat on this harbour and decided to make it a national harbour and that plans for that purpose were adopted. The Grand Trunk Pacific, the Canadian Pacific railway and the Canadian Northern railway adjusted their plans to the plans adopted by the government. That report was presented to the House and is to be found among our sessional papers. The government is carrying on that work and the Grand Trunk Pacific has certainlv opened up a large extent of territory which must be served. That road reached completion at Fort-William much more rapidly than the government anticipated. I was there a year ago last fall and I concluded that the Grand Trunk Pacific would have to wait with their elevator at least a year before they could get a boat to it. I am pleased that the government has rushed the work. Private money to the extent of $2,000,000 or $3,000,000 is invested in the elevator, and it would not be fair to have a couple of millions stand idle for a year or two years owing to the slowness of the government work. I am pleased that the minister has decided to rush the work, because there is a great deal more work necessary to complete the harbour. If the minister had directed the contractor last year to stop the work owing to lack of money voted by parliament so that the elevator would have had to stand idle, I am afraid that the whole northwest would have been here tearing his head off for causing that delay. If this money were being expended on a worthless or political job, then I would say that the member for Grey (Mr. Sproule) was quite right and that it should not be done, but this is a national work, one of our greatest national works in transportation. I cannot see that the minister has done very much wrong in doing what he has done.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The hon. member for North Sim-coe (Mr. Currie) can become as much of an apologist as he likes for the minister's conduct, but that will not influence my action in this House one iota. The hon. member gives the very strongest reason why parliament -should have been asked for this expenditure last year -When he says that the commission visited that harbour and decided to make a certain report and that that report was made and presented to parliament last year. Therefore, they must have been in possession of that report, they must have known what was required to be done, and they should have submitted the estimate to parliament.


John Allister Currie: I did not say that the report was presented last year. The report was presented two years ago, and the work has been carried on by this government for three years in accordance with that report.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That makes it so much the worse, and it makes my -argument stronger because it was known the longer beforehand. I am not objecting to any expenditure at Port Arthur, per se, because it is a very important harbour, and if twice as large an expenditure had been proposed last session -as was proposed, I have not the slightest doubt that this House would have voted it. But, I object to the principle. I say it is unparliamentary and wrong notwithstanding anything that has been said by the Minister of Public Works or ^he hon. member for North Simcoe. I am not very much concerned in either case. The hon. member for North Simcoe has asked:	What would the Northwest have
said if they could not have got their grain down there and through the elevator if it had been ready to receive it? We were told last session that the- Grand Trunk Pacific would be hauling the crop of 1909 down to Port Arthur. Then, if they were going to haul grain, if it were known beforehand and we had that information given to this House by the ministers of the Crown, what kind of business men must they be, knowing that, that they did not prepare for it in proper time? If there h-ad been provision in the proper time, this Hou-se could have authorized the expenditure and the harbour could have been made ready for navigation in time to permit the Grand Trunk Pacific to handle that grain. The minister said that the president of the railway company came to him last May or June. Does he not remember that this House only adjourned on the 19th -or 20th of May? If it were in May surely- he could have tol-d this House w-hat was needed, and this House would have willingly voted it. But they came to the minister a few weeks after parliament rose. How did it happen that it was known a few weeks after parliament rose and it was not known a few weeks before? All these plans are not the result of a moment's excitement. They are all worked out beforehand. They have to look over the ground, provide -and prepare months beforehand. Therefore, it was known, the company had their consultations with the government, no doubt, and the government engineers had gone into the question and determined the amount of work which was required to be done, -and the depth of dredging necessary to enable them to ship through these elevators. That was all known beforehand, and therefore I think that this expenditure ought to have been provided for by parliament. I am not -objecting to the expenditure. If it Mr. SPROTJLE.
had been ten times as much I would not object because I know' the importance of that harbour, but I am objecting to the unparliamentary principle that has been adopted and has been introduced by the Minister of Public Works, one which parliament should not condone and one which parliament should not allow to pass.


William Pugsley: It was- not introduced by me. I am following what has been done for forty years.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Not by any means. A few thousand dollars here and there-


William Pugsley: But on the same principle.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: For every dollar that parliament has voted you -spend $1.75 during the year on this work. We voted $600,000 and you spend $1,025,000. Yet, we are told that such a principle is defensible. No such principle that I have any knowledge of in parliamentary life is defensible. I have said all I intend to say about it, but I say that the government and the Minister of Public Works ought to be held responsible and called to account for it by the people of this country.


Austin Levi Fraser: I have no objection to the item as fax as this harbour is concerned. I know very little about the merits of the question, but there is a principle recognized by the people of this country. One thing that we are assembled in parliament for is to look after the expenditure of public money. The principle of the -appropriation of public money is one which is recognized by every banking or financial institution to-day in Canada. It is a well recognized principle that all moneys that axe to be expended -shall be voted by a Board of Directors, or, as in the case of public money, by this parliament. The principle is the same. Last year the Minister of Public Work-s asked for $600,000 to expend on this public work. It was granted. A few months afterwards a man by the name of Chamberlin, a contractor up there, the president of some company, comes to the minister-


William Pugsley: He is the manager of the Grand Trunk Pacific.


Austin Levi Fraser: Well, he comes to the minister and tells him that he wants more' money to be granted. This is shortly after parliament closed, or perhaps before parliament closed. The minister says: Yes, we will get at the thing and we will spend $400,000 more. For what purpose? So that we may be able to get the grain out. What do the Grand Trunk Pacific do? They take out one train load of grain. The minister has departed from a fundamental principle of constitutional government.

Although this may be, as the hon. member for North Simcoe says, a necessary work, surely this parliament will try and govern itself in accordance with fundamental principles. If we are going to get away from them why come and ask for any more money for this work? Let them go on and spend the money, and at the end of the year come and tell us how much they have expended. Why do they go through the farce of coming and asking parliament for $600,000 when at the end of the year they will come back and tell us that they have spent over a million dollars? I feel sure that if we go over the different items in the accounts for the year we will find expenditures without the authorization of parliament amounting to thousands and even millions of dollars a year. What business has the minister or any department of the government to spend a million dollars without the authorization of parliament? Surely it is the duty of parliament to authorize public expenditures, and I think every lion, member will concede that it is a principle and a duty that should be adhered to.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I would like to ask the minister whether the place that is being dredged by the suction dredge is not likely to fill in again with material washed from the lake or the river. I want to call his attention to what I think is the most serious part of this whole question. I think my hon. friend from East Grey (Mr. Sproule) is perfectly right in criticising the minister for this large expenditure of money without the consent of parliament. The minister quoted to us the amount of the expenditure on each of the contracts let previous to the present year, and these contracts, as I added them up, amount to only $350,000, which leaves $75,000 of new contracts that the minister has let on his own responsibility. To my mind that is the most serious part of the whole transaction.


William Pugsley: Did my hon. friend take the $55,000 paid to the Great Lakes Dredging Company for the deepening of the river from 22 to 25 feet?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I took $307,000, $15,000 and $31,000.


William Pugsley: Add the $55,000, $31,000 and $15,000.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I understood the minister to make the statement that there was a contract for $55,000.


William Pugsley: Yes, that was for deepening the channel from 22 to 25 feet. That is part of the same work.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Is that not a new contract?


William Pugsley: It is new instructions, but still that would be included in the work originally designed.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Did it cost the same?


William Pugsley: It cost a little more to go to the greater depth.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Well, it must be a new contract.


William Pugsley: It was not a new work. It is all part of the one harbour.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much more per yard is paid to the Great Lakes Dredging Company for this deeper work than for the other?


William Pugsley: A part of it had already been dredged to 22 feet, and then we had to provide for the extra 3 feet, and where it had not been dredged at all, we dredged down to 25 feet, and the whole thing was figured out with very great care by the engineers. I cannot give the figures exactly, but I think we raised it from 9 cents for the 22 feet to 111 cents for the 25 feet, which is a very reasonable figure.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much was earned by the Great Lakes Dredging Company last year?


William Pugsley: I will get the information on the main estimates.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: New work for at least $75,000, including the deepening of the harbour, was let last year.


William Pugsley: The only really new work was the $10,000 worth done by Mr. Phinn.
Tiffin harbour improvements, $23,000.


William Pugsley: This is to provide for amount due contractors for drilling and dredging operations at Tiffin to a depth of 25 feet at low ivater in connection with the terminals of the Grand Trunk. The important harbour at Tiffin is part of the national system of transportation, and we have decided to dredge there to 25 feet.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much w!as voted, last year?


William Pugsley: $125,000, and ive have expended $147,377.88.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Does that complete the work?


William Pugsley: No, we will continue work this year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much has been spent on this harbour, and how much i3 yet to be expended?
Mr, PUGSLEY. We have already expended $384,000 at Tiffin, and the engineer tells me the total estimated cost will be $600,000.
TiEVISEn EDITIOV

Victoria harbour improvements, $36,000.


William Pugsley: We had an appropriation last year of $150,000, and we have expended $185,526.


John Allister Currie: Will the minister have sufficient depth of water for the Canadian Pacific railway at these elevators?


William Pugsley: Yes; the Canadian Pacific railway is entirely satisfied with the way in which the work is proceeding.


John Allister Currie: You should take enough money this year, so that we may not have the same complication we have had over Fort William. There is a lot of work to be done at Victoria harbour.


William Pugsley: I think we are taking enough money.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that work let by contract?


William Pugsley: It is under contract, let after public advertisement for tenders; rock, $2.25 a yard; other materials, 124 cents w'hen towed; boulders, $1.75; all other materials, 11 cents per cubic yard when cast over.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The whole contract is let to one company?


William Pugsley: Yes.


Mr. SEXSMITH.: What is the total estimated cost?


William Pugsley: 


John Allister Currie: I think it will be more.


William Pugsley: Perhaps a little more. In reply to my hon. friend (Mr. Armstrong) I may say we have the usual slope, and it is rather hard material there, so that it is not likely to fill in to any extent.


John Allister Currie: The banks and the bottom of the river are heavy red clay.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Then why have you to pay for rock cutting?


John Allister Currie: There is some hard granite rock there.
Further amount required towards the encouragement of better transportation and conservation of fresh fish, $20,000.


William Templeman: The reason for this supplementary vote is that this service has proved itself so effective in the development of the fresh fish trade that it was decided to continue it through the fiscal year. The whole explanation of the arrangement covers two and a half pages of the last report of the Fisheries Department, beginning at page 17. The policy of the department has been to guarantee one-third of the ordinary express rates to Quebec and Ontario in order to encourage the direct Mr. PUGSLEY.
shipment of fresh fish. Formerly it came to Montreal via Boston.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How much was voted forjhis purpose last year?


William Templeman: $25,000. That was to carry on the work to November last, but it has proven so successful that the department decided to continue it, and the additional $20,000 is required to meet the additional expense. The ordinary express rates from Port Mulgrave or Halifax to Montreal is $1.50 per hundred pounds. Of that we pay fifty cents, so that it costs $1 per hundred pounds to cover the shipment to Montreal.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not want to be understood as opposing this, because I think that anything that will tend to stimulate trade between the various provinces is very desirable, but I am afraid that the minister would get into trouble if he attempted to apply the same rule to all other commodities.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have been doing that for a long time for butter, cheese and fruit.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Not paying one-third of the express rates.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: We have been doing it in a different form. We have been guaranteeing to the railway companies that they would earn two-thirds of the ordinary freight rates per car. If they do not get enough freight in the car to earn two-thirds, we make up the difference. If they get more than two-third3, they give us a credit for the extra, and at the end of the season a balance is struck, and we make up the loss. We spend about $10,000 a year on that.


John Allister Currie: I think there is a great constitutional principle at stake here. I quite agree that it is a good thing to encourage the shipment of fresh fish from the maritime provinces as far as Montreal, and to pay part of the freight on it, to the province of Ontario, where it may compete with the fish caught by our fishermen on the great lakes; but I notice that when there is any expenditure for the province of Ontario every one seems to want to jump on it with both feet. I do not believe in being provincial in this matter; but the mistake made in this case is the same as in the case of the Minister of Public Works, that the money was expended without the consent of parliament.


George Taylor: I understand that this is a sort of bonus given for the purpose of driving the American fish out of our market. This market was formerly supplied by the Boston dealers, and it was to enable our Canadians to compete with the Boston men that this money is given.

I think the object very commendable and I presume the increase is due to the development of the trade. In place of voting the $30,000 in the estimate last year, that vote ought to be increased.


John Allister Currie: There is a great constitutional principle at stake right here again and, as representing an Ontario constituency, I say -we ought to come right back to that principle. The minister has Violated a constitutional principle by overrunning this estimate, what would he do if he had to spend a million dollars? No doubt he would overrun it bv $500.-
000.


Mr. CONMEE.: Why should not the fishermen on the north shore of Lake Superior have some of the benefits of this? They are nearly as far from the Montreal market as the deep ^ea fishermen and they have to express their fish.


Mr. BLACK.: They do not compete with the American fish.


James Conmee: Yes, they do. They ship white trout and pickerel.


John Allister Currie: And the fishermen of Lake Manitoba, represented bv the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bradbury), catch two million to three million dollars worth of fish every year and ship them to the United States. Why should they not have a share in this money? But again I would remind the House that there is a great constitutional principle at stake, and I hope my hon. friend from Rainy River (Mr. Conmee) will support me in'opposing this vote.


William Templeman: The policy has been to give assistance to salt water fishermen only.


John Allister Currie: Why?
_ Mr. TEMPLEMAN. The policy was only inaugurated one or two years ago and the idea was to bring the Atlantic fisheries into Ontario and Quebec.


John Allister Currie: Thev have Spain and Cuba and other countries to shin to.


William Templeman: I frankly admit that if the principle is sound in one case, it ought to be in another, and I would advise the department to consider the suggestion made by the hon. member for Rainy River (Mr. Conmee). Just to show the effect of this, take the imports from the United States into the port of Montreal, _ the greatest Canadian fish market. The importation of such fish as cod and haddock from the United States fell in 1898 to the end of October from 753,000 pounds to 75,000 pounds in the case of cod and from 75,000 of haddock to 9,000 pounds.
182J
This shows that the American fish had been displaced by direct importation from the Atlantic.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I might reply to the observations of the hon. member	for
North Simcoe (Mr. Currie) that this is not a matter to turn into a jest. The principle in the present instance is entirely different from that in the case we discussed some time ago. Some years ago we passed a law to give certain consideration to those who shipped butter, cheese or other perishable produce in cold storage, and we voted $75,000 for that purpose, but it was distinctly understood that if the trade cailed	for
more we would give more in the same proportion. In the case before us the principle is just the same. It it were decided to give for this article of produce one-third of the cost of transportation and it was assumed so many tons would be shipped, and the shipments happened to exceed that amount, there is no violation of principle in paying the extra percentage. That is not the same at all as an over expenditure on a public work. In the latter case, the engineers have every opportunity of drawing plans and making estimates and submitting everything to parliament, and there can be no excuse for the minister doubling the expenditure voted.


John Allister Currie: Does the Minister of Agriculture provide cold storage facilities for shipment of butter in the winter?


Sydney Arthur Fisher: No.


John Allister Currie: Cold storage was supplied for the fish business in the summer, but now the minister asks an additional appropriation during the winter. Again there is a great constitutional principle at stake.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: On butter in winter we do not need cold storage.


John Allister Currie: Nor do we need it on fish.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: The fish is expressed and not sent in cold storage at all.
Fish breeding establishments-amount required to pay AY. S. Young for special service collecting whitefish eggs for hatchery at Selkirk and Berens river, $100.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I have thought for a good many years that the government are not doing all they should with regard to the establishment of these fish hatcheries. The rivers and lakes of our country are being depleted very rapidly. In the Georgian bay we have one of the very finest fishing grounds in Canada, but it is being rapidly depleted. Every year immense quantities of fish and fish ova are brought
[DOT]5751

to the shore and the fish ova -destroyed, in some places in tons, and yet we require them. The Americans take them. and use them for hatching out fish on their side. Instead of having those fish ova destroyed, as they are in some cases in tons, we would be doing the proper thing if more fish breeding establishments were erected on the Georgian bay and Lake Huron, and have the fish hatched out there. They send to Georgian bay and collect the ova there right along the shore of the riding I represent. They bring them to Ottawa and hatch them out, and afterwards the fresh fry are taken back at considerable expense and put into the lake. The hatching might as well be done there at the edge of the lake, in the streams that are in every way suitable for the purpose. Many of the fry are destroyed in carriage, and it costs a good deal 'more while yielding nothing like the beneficial results that would follow having hatcheries near the water in which the fry are to be placed. I have again and again drawn attention to this improper and short-sighted policy. For some time I thought I had the promise of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries that he would establish a hatchery on the river leading into Thornbury down through a portion of my riding, where there are opportunities for a dozen fish hatcheries close to the lake. Though I thought I had his promise, I found that the minister was only jollying the thing along, and I was forced to the conclusion that he had no intention of carrying out the idea. I understand that one hatchery was established at Wiarton. That is right. I would like to see a dozen along the Georgian bay including one at Southampton. Tons of fish ova are destroyed there every year, and the waters are being depleted and the public are complaining. We are talking of conserving our forests and of replanting. That is what we should do with our fisheries; we should make the best use of all that nature has given us.


William Templeman: I am inclined to agree with the observations of my bon. friend (Mr. Sprouleb Not many hatcheries have been built in very recent years. I am informed that it is proposed to build one on Lake Superior, and two or three applications for hatcheries on Georgian bay, and other points along that lake shore are under consideration at present.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is one on the Beaver river?


William Templeman: I am informed that that is not one of those under consideration. I believe that the view expressed by my hon. friend has the concurrence of the department which has always been anxious to establish fish hatcheries. There are


Thomas Simpson Sproule: thirty-seven hatcheries in Canada, and, of these fully two-thirds have been established within the last ten years. In my own province there are nine, eight of which have been built within the last ten or twelve years. We are well supplied in British Columbia for the hatching of salmon. The policy of the department has always been to build hatcheries, and keep up the fisheries by this artificial propagation. If I can influence the department, I will try to have others built on the great lakes.


Judson Burpee Black: Is it the intention to hatch shad at the Windsor hatchery?


William Templeman: I am advised that that is being provided for, that provision is being made in the main estimates in relation to that matter.
Fisheries protection service-further amount required, $30,000.


Adam Brown Crosby: What protection service is this?


William Templeman: This is to provide for expenditures of last year. This vote is necessary largely because of additional fisheries protection on the Pacific ocean. The protection of the sea fisheries there is a verv serious question. The government has had only one cruiser, the ' Kestrel.' It was felt that another vessel was needed, and the steamer ' Joliffe,' a large and powerful tug was engaged in the service at an expense of $9,000 or $10,000. Another large item covered by this vote is repairs to the government cruiser ' Kestrel.' No repairs of any account had been made to this vessel since she was built in 1903. An examination showed serious defects and she was put on the wavs and thoroughly repaired at a cost of $13,000.
Post Office Department, outside service-further amount required, $300,000.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Of this $300,000, the sum of $60,000 is for the increases that were made statutory last year for the humbler employees in the Post Office Department, outside service. Then $40,000 must be applied for the payment of better railway facilities for the British mails between Montreal and Rimouski. That is paid to the Intercolonial railway. As to the balance of $200,000, last year when the estimates were made up we were still under the influence of reduced revenues, and I thought I could imitate some of mv colleagues and practice the policy of economy and retrenchment. We, therefore, cut off this amount, but we found that with the expansion of business in the country, with the establishment of the rural mail delivery and the continuation of our policy of multiplying the varous postal services from weekly to semi-weekly, from semiweekly to tri-weeklv and daily we could not do without the amount by which we had attempted to retrench.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What has been the cost of the rural mail delivery system and to what extent has it been put in force?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I have here a table which will give all the information desired by the hon. member.
Statement in connection with Rural Mad Delivery Routes in the Dominion of Canada for the period ending November 30, 1909.
Division.
No.
of
Routes
authorized.
No. of Routes on which authorized rate was accepted.
No. of Routes on which authorized rate was refused.
Total
number
of
boxholders
reported.
Cost
of
services
of
boxes for four years.
.$ cts.
Increase in cost of mail services for
four years.
Total increase in cost of mail services (including service of Rural Delivery Boxes)
for four years. $ cts.
Prince Edward Island..
Nova Scotia	
New Brunswick	
Quebec	
Montreal	
Ottawa	
Kingston	
Toronto	
London	
Winnipeg	
Moosejaw	
Saskatoon	
Edmonton	
Calgary	
Vancouver	:....
Victoria	
Totals	
1
8
7
38
28
8 3
6
5
21	8
4		
9	3
5	3
428	1,594 00	2,720 48
41	148 00	
193	048 00	1,574 8058	223 00	760 00
, 4 48 148 00 2,222 SO 983 00
1		
3	4	8014	7	36218	14	48656	38	1,59514	11	1438	813	612	i	1064	472	4	834	20311 00	706 401,440 00	4,448 001,936 00	4,637 006,236 00	16,793 68432 00	5,277 52214 00	680 0018 00	312 00	20 00135 00	178 40309 00	3,412 0075 00	
1,017 40 5,888 00 6,573 00 23,029 08 5,709 52 894 00 18 00 332 00 313 40 3,721 00 75 00
178
3,729
14,031 00
41,208 28
55,239 28


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Will the minister be good enough to tell us where the bulk of this money is expended?


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is chiefly in the western provinces, on the new railway systems, the Canadian Northern and the Grand Trunk Pacific. I know of forty or fifty post offices on these lines that were established two or three years ago. At the beginning the receipts were $25, or $30, or $40. I remember that the best revenue producing office was Wainwright, one of the divisional points on the Grand Trunk Pacific. The revenue was then about $175; now it has increased to nearly $1,000. It shows the progress of the country in these new sections. New settlements grow up and new offices are opened. That is where the great bulk of the business is done now, but in the older sections of the country we are establishing post offices, reducing the distances between offices and giving better postal facilities.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I see the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Conedon) sitting behind the minister, and I was wondering whether he was asking for an expenditure for increased postal facilities in that part of the country. I see that last year there was an expenditure of $135,000 in the Yukon.


Rodolphe Lemieux: We have to contend with special circumstances in the Yukon. It is not a profitable business on account of the prives that have to be paid for the services, and the distances covered to reach the mining camps that are dispersed throughout that land. It is not a profitable business, but still we have to maintain the service. We have to be in a position to send a letter from north to south or east to west at two cents. We take pride in the Post Office Department in the fact that persons at the remotest points in this country can send and receive letters. As an instance of the development of postal facilities in the west. I may say that since 1908 we have established in the district of Medicine Hat alone, something like 60 offices. It shows the rapid development that is taking place in the west, and how difficult it is to predict in advance the amount that will be spent in a year. That is why I am obliged to come now and ask for an additional vote of $200,000.


Austin Levi Fraser: What are the conditions and requirements necessary to secure the establishment of a rural mail delivery?


Rodolphe Lemieux: I will give my hon. friend a little booklet in which he will find 1 the instructions and directions necessary

for the establishment of a rural mail delivery.
To provide for the appointment of R. G. Meroer as superintendent of the railway mail service at London, at a salary of $1,500 a year from the 1st April, 1909, $1,500.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is that a new aopoint-ment?


Rodolphe Lemieux: No, he succeeds another gentleman. Mr. Mercer has been employed since 1872, first in the inspector's office, and then in the office of the Superintendent of Railway Mail Service. On the death of the late superintendent, in July, 1905, Mr. Mercer was placed in charge of the district, and has given very good satisfaction. He is known as a first-class clerk, and he is now in receipt of the maximum salary of $1,500. Under the statute, however, no person can be appointed as superintendent unless he has actually been employed as a railway mail clerk for two and a half years. Mr. Mercer has never been employed in that capacity, and, therefore, his appointment has to be made by a vote in the estimates.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Then you are deliberately and flagrantly defying the Civil Service Act?


Rodolphe Lemieux: He is now at his maximum, and we simplv propose to change his title, he continuing to receive the same salary. He has been acting since 1905.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In that capacity?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes, but he had not the title.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I understand the minister to say that the law provides that a man occupying the position of superintendent must be employed two and a half years. If he was there since 1905, he must have been employed more than two and a half years. The minister must be wrong in his explanation. I take it that the salary is being voted because he has not complied with the Act.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: I do not know the details of the situation enough to be able to explain them, but under the new Civil Service Act a salary of this kind cannot be voted unless a man's name is put into the item, and I think that is the reason of this particular item. The amount may have been provided and paid otherwise, but the item must contain the name according to the provision of the Civil Service Act.


Haughton Lennox: I want to call the attention of the minister for a moment to some communications I have received in reference to ' Cotton's Weekly,' published at Cowansville.


Rodolphe Lemieux: 


Rodolphe Lemieux: Is my hon. friend a socialist?


Haughton Lennox: That is not to the point.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Not at all.


Haughton Lennox: I do not need to_ be a socialist in order to wish to do justice. I know not whether injustice has been done in this matter, but I am requested by some of my constituents to call the attention of the Postmaster General to what is alleged to be a grievance. I have a letter from Mr. McQuarrie, a gentleman in the town of Barrie who is an avowed socialist, but a man whom I hold in the very highest esteem. I have also a petition from some people who live very close to me in the little hamlet where I reside, and they represent that an injustice has been done. I shall send that petition to the Postmaster General. Now, I do not know whether this is a good publication or not, but my correspondents allege that discrimination has been practised against them. I see in a copy which has been addressed to me as well as other members, a letter addressed to the Postmaster General complaining that by a recent order the postmaster at Cowansville has charged sixteen times the amount formerly charged as postage on this publication. If this is an improper publication which should not have the privilege to go through the mails it should be shut out altogether, but if it is entitled to postal privileges it ought not to be charged more than the rates charged other publications. As a public man representing these people who have communicated with me; I want to bring the matter squarely before the Postmaster General, and to ask him for an explanation.


Adam Brown Crosby: I have had communications similar to those received by my hon. friend (Mr. Lennox) and I endorse the statements made by him. If this publication is not such as should pass through the post office, it should be stopped altogether, but if it is entitled to postal privileges it should be treated the same as any other newspaper. I ask, for those interested in this paper, fair and reasonable and impartial treatment.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When I made a remark to my hon. friend (Mr. Lennox) a moment ago, of course, he understood it was a joke.


Haughton Lennox: Oh, certainly, I did not resent it at all.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is quite proper that my hon. friend should ask the reason for the complaints made by Mr. Cotton, the editor of ' Cotton's Weekly '. I have been deluged with letters from all parts of the country, not only from those who believe in
575"

socialistic doctrines, but from other citizens, who want to see fair play done to every section of the community. I must say at once that there has been no discrimination,	whatever, against ' Cotton's
Weekly	If there was anything published
in that paper of a scurrilous character' it would be prevented altogether from passing through the mails, as has been done in other cases, but ' Cotton's Weekly ' is not a paper of that class. Through an error of the postmaster as Cowansville, where the paper is published, it was allowed to pass through the mails in bundles, paying the same rate as if the paper had been addressed to bona fide subscribers. There is a postal rate for bona fide subscribers, and there is a certain other rate charged for papers sent in bundles. As soon as the attention of the department was called to that fact the proper legal rate was exacted from the publishers, and hence all the trouble. I repeat that there is no discrimination, whatever. Mr. Cotton is under the impression that we are discriminating against his paper, because it is a socialistic paper, but the department has no idea of the kind in mind. The fact is that Mr. Cotton is sending his paper in bundles to certain individuals, who then distribute them to other parties.


Haughton Lennox: They are not individually addressed?


Rodolphe Lemieux: They are not individually addressed. My hon. friend (Mr. Lennox) is a distinguished member of the bar, and he knows the legal definition of ' bona fide subscribers ' used in this sense. The whole thing in a nut-shell is that Mr. Cotton addresses his papers in bundles to one individual, who then distributes, or sells, them to others, and that does not mean a ' bona fide subscriber ' as set out in the Postal Act. There have been hundreds of complaints sent to me that there is an attempt by the Post Office Department to crush this paper because of its socialistic character, and I have answered every one of these correspondents, explaining the matter very fully. There is no discrimination in the Post Office Department against any respectable opinion which may be advanced by any citizens. I respect the views of the socialists, I respect the views of the labour people as I respect the views of all classes of the community, and I would not be a party to lending the authority of the post office to suppress any respectable opinion. Mr. Cotton is completely in error about this. He has written to his friends throughout the country telling them to write to the Post Office Department to state that we are trying to destroy his paper. Such is not the case. We are simply charging him the rate which is charged in every other similar case. The other day I gave more, in reply to a question, the legal aspect of the matter, which will be found in ' Hansard '.


Haughton Lennox: Do I understand the Postmaster General to say that the rate imposed upon ' Cotton's Weekly ' at Cowansville, in bundles without individual addresses, is exactly the same rate that would be charged to any other weekly paper issuing from the same place, whatever its opinions might be?


Rodolphe Lemieux: That is correct.


Haughton Lennox: Then, if they were addressed to bona fide subscribers and put into a bundle, they would be allowed to go at a lower rate?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


Haughton Lennox: And it was because this was detected, and they had been allowed to go at a rate which they should not have gone that the change was made?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


Haughton Lennox: The Postmaster General says that he has answered a great many letters. Has he answered Mr. Cotton?


Rodolphe Lemieux: Mr. Cotton wrote me yesterday a personal letter, in which I am sorry to say he abused me terribly; but I ignored the abuse and answered the facts. I signed the letter this afternoon. He labours under the delusion that he is discriminated against, whereas the department is simply treating him as it does any other editor in the country.


Mr. ARTHURS.: While this item is under discussion I would like to call the Postmaster General's attention to the mail service in the Paroy Sound district. We have certain new lines of railway in that district, and yet in a great many cases the people continue to get their mails by the old routes^ perhaps by a vehicle carrying it fifteen miles when there is a railroad within a mile or two. I think it would be advisable for the Postmaster General to have the inspector make an inquiry into the service and report.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I shall be pleased to give the railroads the preference in every case, and I may say to my hon. friend that when a railroad is completed, the company does not lose any time in coming to the department and asking for the privilege of transporting His. Majesty's mail. However, if my hon. friend will call my attention to any railway company which has no transportation of the mails, I will have the matter looked into.


James Arthurs: I may cite a case in point. There is a town in my county called

Byng Inlet to which there is a mail service north by the Canadian Pacific railway, I think, on alternate days. There is no return service south, and a letter from Byng Inlet to Parry Sound goes north to Sudbury, from there to North Bay, from there to Toronto, and back again to Parry Sound. In that way it takes six or seven days for the letter to reach its destination, whereas a man could walk down the track and deliver the letter in a few hours. That is one ease, but there are a great many others, and I think it would be well for the minister to have the inspector look into the whole mail service of that district.
Soma resolutions reported.
On motion of Mr. Fisher, House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.

Monday, March 21, 1910.