1901-04-15

OF THE DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS OF THE DOMINION OF CANADA FIRST SESSION-NINTH PARLIAMENT 1 EDWARD VII., 1901 VOL. LV.


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{
House of Commons Hcbntes
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Monday, April 15, 1901.

Mr. SPEAKER.: I have received the following notice from the Governor General's Secretary, which I propose to read to the House:
Office of the
Governor General's Secretary,
Ottawa, April 15, 1901.
Sir,-I have the honour to inform you that the Chief Justice of Canada, acting as deputy to His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate Chamber this afternoon at four o'clock for the purpose of giving assent to certain Bills which have passed the Senate and House of Commons during the present session.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your obedient servant,
HARRY GRAHAM, Captain, A.D.C., Acting Gov. General's Secretary. The Honourable
The Speaker of the House of Commons.



CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READINGS.

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Bill (No. 43) to incorporate the St. Lawrence Lloyd's.-Mr. Geoffrion.
Bill (No. 53) respecting the Manitoba and North-west Loan Company (Limited).-Mr. Britton.

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House in committee on Bill (No. 97) to incorporate the Manufacturers and Temperance and General Life Assurance Com-,pany.-Mr. Osier.
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On section 14,
Mr. WALLACE.: I gave notice of an amendment to clause 14, to be entitled clause 14 A, and which reads as follows :-
To publish annually in report of said company a statement of the financial accounts of each section of the company's business as it stands at that date.
The Temperance and General Life Assurance Company has two branches ; one for total abstainers and the other for those who may or may not be total abstainers, and the company has always proceeded on these two lines. I believe it to be in the interest of the public, as well as in the interest of those who may have invested in either of these lines of insurance, that they may know what the results are and how the results pan out with regard to the temperance and the general branch of this company.
llie MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton). Do they keep the accounts separately ?


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I think they are bound to do so. Ostensibly they have kept them separately. I am told that perhaps a shareholder might get the information by going to the company, but the company might or might not be willing to give that information. It is in the interest of those who insure in either of these branches that this amendment should pass. Now that the amalgamation has taken place, conditions that prevailed previously should not be relaxed, because a company joining in with another company must have its obligations and undertakings assumed by this amalgamated company. Clause 14 of the Bill reads very loosely. It says :
The temperance section of the Temperance Company shall hereafter be maintained by the

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company as the temperance section in such manner as the directors think best.
That wipes out these safeguards and conditions which were necessary in the Temperance and General Life Company, and permits the new company to do whatever they may please in regard to the matter. I do not think that is fair. I do not think we should give the amalgamated company such wide privileges, which do not exist in the companies before amalgamation. When a company takes over another company they assume all the liabilities of that other company, and instead of having that wide latitude given them by clause 14 of the proposed Act, I believe this amendment should be adopted.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W.
S. Fielding). This motion was discussed in the committee, and I believe a majority of the members thought that this was a matter for the internal economy of the company, rather than for legislative enactment. Unless some stronger evidence is furnished than that which I have heard, I am disposed to view the matter in that light. My hon. friend (Mr. Wallace) and others probably are anxious to learn something from the experience of this company. One hon. member whom I am sorry is not present, because he was much interested in the question, suggested that the liquor drinkers were being taxed to give the temperance people cheap insurance. That was, in brief, the argument he advanced. It is a very interesting problem, but it is one which I do not think we should investigate through the agency of this particular company.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: They have invited it themselves.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: We have no information as to the opinion of the policy-holders or shareholders on this amendment. I have no strong opinion on it, but I thought I would mention that the matter was disposed of in committee, and that the view I have referred to was taken by the majority.


Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: The matter was discussed in committee, and at first I was inclined to think that some such clause should be added, but afterwards I came to the conclusion that probably it would not Mr. WALLACE.
be advisable to do so. If any such legislation is imposed on insurance companies it would be better to have it done by a general Act. It is not imposed on any insurance company, I believe, at the present timt\ 1 may point out to my hon. friend from W est York (Mr. Wallace) that the 4th clause of the agreement which is incorporated in the Bill, makes it necessary that the new company shall carry out the obligations of both the former companies with all classes of jiolicy-holders.


Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.: I agree with the hon. gentleman (Mr. Borden, Halifax) that if it is desirable to impose any such condition as this, it ought to apply to all companies alike. As the Minister of Finance has stated, this is a matter which entirely concerns the internal economy and management of the company. I cannot see that any public interest is to be served by this amendment, and it may very seriously affect the interests of the company. The company, I believe, is in good standing, and doing a large business throughout the whole Dominion, especially in the lower provinces. Under these circumstances, I think it would be a mistake in this hurried way to add legislation which, in itself, does not look as if it would do any good or any harm,, but which nevertheless might seriously affect the interests of that company. I agree with the hon. member who has just spoken that if any such subject is to be dealt with it should be by amendment to the general Act affecting all companies alike.
Amendment negatived.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.



MANITOBA RAILWAYS AGREEMENT.

Mr.  C. F.@: McISAAC (Antigonish) moved second reading of Bill (No. 102) respecting a lease of certain railways in Manitoba. -


Mr. A. W. PUTTEE (Winnipeg).: Explain.


James Sutherland: This is a very important Bill which differs from most private Bills that come before the House, inasmuch as it involves an agreement between the Manitoba government and a railway company ; and as
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we cannot possibly have all the facts before us at this time, I think the Bill might well be referred to the committee with a distinct understanding that in voting for the second reading no member is committing himself to the principle or to the subject-matter of the Bill. We have to hear parties on both sides with regard to it, and we need to take cognizance of a great many documents which cannot be produced at the present time, before we are able to judge as to the merits of certain provisions in the Bill. I would suggest to the House, therefore, and to hon. members who take an active interest in this matter, that it would be better to refer the Bill to the committee for the purpose of making ourselves acquainted with the facts regarding it, but with the clear understanding, as I said, that in allowing the second reading to take place and referring the Bill to the committee, no member of the House is in any way committed to the principle of the Bill.


Arthur W. Puttee: I did not rise for the purpose of discussing the Bill at this stage, although the Bill is to be opposed, but I desired to ask the hon. member whose name is on the back of the Bill to give us some explanation with regard to one circumstance connected with it. These Bills, Nos. 102 and 103, refer to what is known as the Manitoba Railway contract. Now, about four-weeks ago two Bills, No. 75 and No. 87, were put through the second reading and referred to the Railway Committee, and they bore on their back the name of the hon. member for Selkirk (Sir. McCreary). Now, I understand he did not give his permission to make any change, but since that time these two latter Bills now before us have been added to the former Bills, and I would like to have the hon. gentleman who is now proposing the second reading, to give us the explanation.


Hon.   S@: I may mention that I received a note from the gentleman whose name was on the Bills, and who certainly had no knowledge of the change. I asked for an explanation from the solicitor ; I believe it is usual for the solicitor to look after the drafting of Bills coming before the House. He alone is responsible for the printing of these Bills that were submitted to the committee. I knew nothing of them until I saw them reprinted ; and I suppose my hon. friend who has
charge of this Bill had not any knowledge of it either, or had anything to do with it. The solicitor for the companies affected by the Bills referred to by the hon. member for Winnipeg (Mr. Puttee) is alone responsible for suggesting the amendments and having the Bills reprinted for reconsideration of the committee.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: I desire to say upon this point that the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary), when leaving the city some five or six days ago, had just then learned that these Bills had been reprinted. As he was obliged to leave that evening he sent me a note by special messenger, asking me to communicate with the chairman of the Railway Committee, saying- that he was not familiar with the rules of the House, and did not know whether the solicitor had a right to have the Bills changed without his consent, and he desired the chairman of the committee to be at once informed that the change was made without his knowledge or consent. I accordingly informed my hon. friend the chairman of tne committee of the circumstance. I say this in order that the position of the member for Selkirk may be made perfectly clear. [DOT]


Mr. McISAAC.: This is a Bill to ratify a lease made between the government of Manitoba and four railway companies operating in that province under one system. The names of the companies are:	The
Northern Pacific and Manitoba Railway Company, the Winnipeg Transfer Railway Company, Limited, the Portage and Northwestern Railway Company, and the Wask-ada and North-eastern Railway Company. These four railways operate in the province of Manitoba under one system. They originally obtained provincial charters from the Manitoba legislature, and subsequently came to this parliament and obtained legislation declaring these roads to be for the general advantage of Canada. The lease which these four companies made -with the Manitoba government is shortly this : They agree to hand over for a period of 999 years the combined system at a rental, for the first ten years, of 8210,000 ; for the next ten years, of 8225,000 ; for the third ten years, of 8275,000 ; for the balance of the term, of 8300,000. The conditions of

the lease place an estimated value upon the whole system of $7,000,000. There is a provision in the lease that at any time during the existence of that lease the government of the province of Manitoba may purchase these roads for $7,000,000, and can assign it to any company or corporation. These are the principal provisions in the lease, which section 1, the only section in the Bill seeks to ratify and confirm.


Hon. JOHN HAGGART (South Lanark).: As the hon. gentleman states, there is only one section in the Bill, which provides that this contract ' shall be binding according to the tenor thereof as to such of the parties thereto as are subject to the legislative authority of parliament.' Does the hon. gentleman mean that the legislature of the province of Manitoba will come under this provision, as being subject to the legislative authority of parliament ?


Colin Francis McIsaac: I cannot quite understand the hon. gentleman.


John Graham Haggart: This Bill is to confirm an indenture, the other parties which are subject to the jurisdiction of this parliament, being railway companies which received their entity from this parliament. I want the hon. gentleman to explain whether he intends under this clause to make the legislation binding upon the government of Manitoba. Does that government come under the jurisdiction of this parliament, according to this first clause ?


Colin Francis McIsaac: That is a constitutional question which I am not prepared at this moment to answer. There is a question about the jurisdiction of this parliament and that of the legislature of Manitoba.


John Graham Haggart: That is the whole question.


Colin Francis McIsaac: That is not a question which we need discuss at this stage.


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the second time.

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Bill (No. 103) relating to an agreement between the government of Manitoba and the Canadian Northern Railway Company, respecting certain railways.-Mr. Mclsaac.
Colin Francis McIsaac: 



QUESTIONS.


Mr. BRUNEAU asked :: Which of the departments is invested with the control, maintenance, &c., of the beacons on the River Richelieu, between Sorel and Chambly ?


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. Sir Louis Davies).: The control of beacons generally is under the Department of Marine and Fisheries, but the department has no beacons on the Richelieu river, between Sorel and Chambly.


CARILLON CANAL-REBUILDING GUIDE PIER.
Mr. MONK asked :: 1.	To whom was the contract for rebuilding the guide pier, Carillon canal, awarded ?
2.	Who tendered for said contract ?
3.	Who was the highest tenderer ?
4.	Who was the lowest ?
5.	How many tenders were received ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: In the absence of the Minister of Railways and Canals, I beg to answer:
1.	To Martineau & Lemoine.
2.	Dussault & Pageau, Martineau & Lemoine, Borthwick & McNaughton, John Quinlan, W. J. Poupore, J. F. Keating.
3.	J. F. Keating.
4.	Dussault & Pageau's tender was for $21,743.80, and Martineau & Lemoine for $21,784.17, a difference of $40.37. The department preferred that the latter should be entrusted with the work, and awarded the contract to them at the lowest tender price.
5.	Six tenders were received.


I.C.R.-SALE OP NEWSPAPERS.
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Mr. GAUVREAU-by Mr. Demers (St. John and Iberville)-asked :
Whether it is the intention of the Department of Railways to permit the selling of newspapers, reviews and other articles required by travellers in the central station at Riviere du Loup, when it shall have been thrown open to the public ?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: It is the intention to arrange for the sale of newspapers, reviews, &e., in the station at Riviere du Loup.


I.C.R.-SALARIES OP FOREMEN AT RIVIERE DU LOUP.
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Hr. GAUVREAU-by Mr. Demers (St. John and Iberville)-asked :
1.	What is now the salary of Messrs. Alexandre Ouellet and J. M. Bourdeau, mechanical foremen at Rivi6re du Loup ?
2.	What is now the salary of Mr. Lozo, the new foreman ?
3.	What member of parliament recommended the appointment of Mr. Lozo ?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding) :: 1.	The salary of Messrs. Alexander Ouellet and J. M. Bourdeau, who have been mechanical foremen at Riviere du Loup, was 5)591.66 per month.
2.	The salary of Mr. Lozo, present mechanical foreman, is $110 a month.
3.	I am not aware that the mechanical superintendent, in selecting a suitable person for this responsible appointment, sought the advice of any member of parliament.


MAIL SERVICE PROM COE HILL MINES TO APSLEY.
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Mr. CARSCALLEN-by Mr. Bell (Addington)-asked :
Who is the contractor for carrying the mails from Coe Hill Mines to Apsley ?
When was the contract awarded ?
What was the date of last tender received and date received at the department ?
If the contract is not yet awarded, who is performing the service, and under what conditions and terms ?
James Sutherland: There is no contract in operation for this service at present. The former contract having expired op the 31st of March last, tenders were invited due to be opened on the 15th of March. The lowest tender having been found considerably higher than the amount of the former contract, the inspector at Kingston was instructed to inquire into the matter, and report the facts to the department. The matter was not finally settled on the 1st of April, instant, and the inspector arranged for the service temporarily with Charles W. Gunter, at the rate of $2 a trip, which the inspector reports as the lowest rate he was able to secure


THE PLAINS OP ABRAHAM.
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Mr. NORTHRUP-by Mr. Kaulbach- asked :
1. Did the member for Quebec West, the Hon. R. R. Dobell, a member of the cabinet, make the statement attributed to him in a resolution
passed by a deputation which waited upon the Hon. Mr. Parent, premier of the province of Quebec, and which resolution has been published in a number of newspapers in the Dominion of Canada, to the following effect :-
Quebec is Angry.
The Leading Citizens Protest Against Mr. Dobell's Opposition to the Plains of Abraham Purchase-An Appeal to Sir Wilfrid-The Federal Government Urged to at Once Ratify the Deal with the Nuns by which the Battlefield will be saved.
Quebec, April 8.-* I worked and voted for the Hon. R. R. Dobell at the time of his last election, but will never cast a vote for him again,' was the statement made by the Hon. Richard Turner, M.L.C., on Saturday afternoon, in the course of an interview with Mayor Parent, at which a large number of prominent citizens were present. Mr. Turner was one of the disgusted delegation that waited on Mr. Dobell on the 4th inst., about the Plains affair, and was told that for conscientious reasons, which he would not disclose, he could not support the scheme.
Mr. Turner was chairman of the important deputation which waited on Mr. Parent on Saturday, and which also included Hon. John Sharpies, Rev. F. G. Scott, W. H. Wiggs, H. M. Price, William Price, William Wood, Victor Chateauvert, N. Garneau, M.L.A., Aid. Tascher-eau, Thomas Davidson, Atkinson, J. Theodore Ross, Amyot, and many others. The proposed deed of sale between the Ursuline nuns and the Federal government was read, and showed that the price to be paid the nuns was $80,000, and that the Marchmont property does not come into the bargain at all. The nuns may, of course, purchase Marchmont instead of the Plains, if they so choose it, but there is nothing in the contract to compel them to do so. There was much adverse comment at Mr. Dobell's action in refusing to speak right out and say what his objections are, and Mayor Parent was particularly severe in the matter. Finally, the following resolution was unanimously adopted :
' Moved by Mr. Victor Chateauvert, Captain William Wood, president of the Literary and Historical Society of Quebec, and Mr. N. Garneau, M.L.A.,
Seconded by Hon. John Sharpies, M.L.C., Mr. William Price and Mr. John Hamilton,
That this large and representative deputation of citizens of Quebec have heard with surprise the report of the gentlemen who waited, on the 4th inst., upon the Hon. R. R. Dobell on the question of securing the Plains of Abraham as a public park, to the effect that the minister, while asserting his approval of the acquisition of that property by the Federal government, stated that there was a matter in connection therewith that he could not conscientiously approve, and that being a cabinet secret he could not divulge it without the consent of his colleagues.
That this deputation having heard the reading, in both French and English, of the proposed deed of sale from the Ursuline ladies to the Federal government, considers that the price stated, namely, $80,000, is very satisfactory, and the conditions imposed such as safeguard the interests both of the Federal government and of the people of the Dominion, and meet with the cordial approval of the citizens of Quebec.
That as members of this deputation, we urge the immediate acceptance of the present pro-
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posed contract upon the Federal government as being the desire of the whole city of Quebec.
That the action of the Ursuline ladies in agreeing to this sale for the express purpose of meeting the stated views of their fellow-citizens, merits the gratitude of the latter and tends to cement the good understanding that exists between people of different nationalities, not only in the city of Quebec, but throughout the entire Dominion.
That we take the present opportunity of thanking the Prime Minister of the province of Quebec and mayor of this city for the active interest he has taken in this matter from its very inception, and for his successful conduct of the negotiations with the religious authorities and Federal government, and trust that he will continue to urge the completion of the transaction upon the conditions contained in the proposed deed of sale.
That copies of these resolutions be transmitted to the Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, Prime Minister of the Dominion, to the Hon. R. R. Dobell and to the Federal members of parliament from the city and district of Quebec.'
2.	What were the conscientious grounds that prevented the hon. gentleman from approving *of such purchase ?
Hon. R. R. DOBELL.: In answer to the hon. gentleman, I have to say that the statement attributed to me is substantially correct. In reference to the conscientious scruples, I may say that I do not consider that they are matters for the consideration of this House. [DOT]


THE CENSUS-ISSUE OF CIRCULAR.
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Mr. N O RTHR U P-by Mr. Ivaulbach- asked :
1. Is the following a true translation, or practically so, of a circular issued by Thomas Cotd, assistant census commissioner :-
(Confidential.)
Census Bureau,
Ottawa, 1st March, 1901.
Dear Sir,-I take the liberty of writing to you to-day for the purpose of discussing matters connected with the census.
As you already know, the fourth decennial census of Canada will begin on the 1st of April next, and will continue during the two or three following weeks. As you also know, the object of the census is to ascertain as exactly as possible the number of the population, and of the resources of the country, and thereby to give a true idea of its relative position among nations.
To attain this object, that is to say, to know as correctly as possible the number of the population and resources of the country, it is necessary that the citizens of the country in which the census is taken should contribute by their influence, by their words, and by their example to the success of the common work.
This leads me, sir, to ask you to aid us in making this census as complete and as exact as possible in your locality. You are probably aware that on the occasion of each former census many citizens of this country imagined that the census was for the purpose of imposing additional taxes, and for the purpose of enrolling Mr. NORTHRUP.
their children for foreign wars. That was a complete mistake, for the results which the census furnishes have not for their object the imposition of new taxes, but are, on the contrary, directly connected with the administrative science which presupposes a general knowledge of needs and means, defects and advantages, of the country in which the census is taken, all of which is to be presented in a numerical form.
Does Not Mean Conscription.
Neither is it reasonable to fear that the census has for its aim the enrolment of any citizen of the country for any war. The military service which a certain number of Canadians recently performed in South Africa was, as you know, purely voluntary, and there was no power in the world capable of enforcing any one to go there unless it was his own desire to do so. There is also another error into which a certain number of our compatriots have fallen : that is to imagine that the census tables, or rather the information furnished the enumerators could serve them as an advertisement, or could be used in any way to their detriment. The real truth, however, is that these tables are never seen, except by the officers whose duty it is to make the census.
These officers are bound by their oath of office not to divulge any information concering individuals, and besides, as you may well believe, I am sure that not four-fifths of the enumerators have any leisure to give attention to the personal information which they have obtained in going from house to house and interrogating the citi-zeus.
Some people have also, in certain cases, objected to give their names to the enumerators. Names are taken purely and simply as a guarantee of the truth of the information furnished, and in order to afford a check upon the information as written down.
There is another thing to which I particularly desire to draw your attention, and that is the peculiar situation of the groups of French families in your district. In the census of 1891, the people of French origin in the maritime provinces, in Manitoba, the North-west Territories, and in Ontario, did not receive justice. A large number of citizens of French origin were enumerated in the census of 1891 as being of English origin.
English-speaking French.
The true cause of this injustice has never been thoroughly known. Perhaps it was owing to the fact that a large number of our compatriots in the provinces above named, and especially in your locality, do not now speak French, and even in some cases have changed their names. When the enumerator went to their houses in 1891 they answered, no doubt, without reflection, that speaking only English, they should be enumerated as forming a part of the population of English origin. That is no reason, however, why citizens who are really of French origin should be enumerated as such.
I have reason to believe that there will be fewer errors this year than in the past, on account of the changes which have been made in the census tables.
But will you permit me to ask you to exercise your influence on all citizens of French origin whom you know, in order that they may answer accurately and correctly the census officials.
See that they do not forget to declare that they are really of French origin, although they

may not now speak French, and although they may have changed their names, as, for example, in the case of those named Poirier, who now call themselves Perry ; those named Leblanc, who now call themselves White, &c.
Will you permit me also to ask you to give these instructions, and these explanations, to all citizens of French origin whom you know.
Will you be good enough to advise your people to answer correctly the questions which will be put to them by the enumerators, assuring them that they need fear no increase of taxes, since the census has not this object in view ; and also not to hesitate to make known the real value of their properties. But above all, insist, I beg of you, that the true origin of all our compatriots may be correctly registered by the census officials.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
THOMAS COTE, Assistant Census Commissioner.
2.	If so, how many such circulars were issued, giving the number sent to each province ?
3.	Were such circulars sent out under the frank of the Minister of Public Works ?
4.	Were such circulars sent out under the instructions of the government ?
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney Fisher).: The translation given here of the circular letter referred to, Is substantially correct. Eighteen hundred and fifty-five were sent out by mail, as follows : 744 in Ontario, 196 in New Brunswick, 287 in Prince Edward Island, and 441 in British Columbia. These circulars were sent out under the frank of the Department of Agriculture, but a certain number of them were sent out under the frank of the Department of Public Works, from the fact that Mr. Cote, who was sending them out, had his office in the Department of Public Works until the office in the Seybold building was ready. Some of the circulars were also franked from the House of Commons in consequence of Mr. Cot6 inquiring about addresses in this building, and sending them from here after the mail was closed in the department. Such circulars were sent out .under the instructions of the department, for the purpose of obtaining correct answers to the questions in the census schedules, just as similar instructions were sent out to a number of the census commissioners in the province of Quebec, to the effect that people whose names were Fraser, Ross, Pettigrew, Carroll, &c., should be entered in the column of origins, as being of English, Irish or Scotch origin, although they spoke French entirely ; and must be put in the column of languages as speaking French. This and other information has been sent
out for the guidance of the census takers, so as to secure absolutely accurate information in the census.


LEVIS BRIGADE CAMP.
Mr. MORIN asked :: 1.	Whether the Militia Department has considered the evidence given in the inquiry ordered last autumn by Colonels Aylmer and Foster, staff officers at Ottawa, into certain charges as to irregularities committed at the last brigade camp at Ldvis, last summer, in the 17th Regiment of Levis ?
2.	If so, is it the intention of the department to pay the men who have received only a portion of their pay for the said brigade camp ?
3.	Is it the intention of the department to indemnify the men who testified at the said inquiry and to grant them their pay for the last camp '*
4.	Is the department taking steps to prevent the recurrence of such irregularities as those which have been committed ?
5.	Is it the intention of the department to punish the officers guilty of the said irregularities, for the honour of the other officers of the 17th Regiment ?


Th MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE (Hon. F. W. Borden) :: 1.	The evidence has been considered.
2.	There are no unsettled claims before the department from the men of the 17th Regiment.
3.	Any claims submitted on the part of the individuals who testified before the Court of Inquiry will be duly considered, and any pay to which they are entitled for service in the last camp which they attended will be paid.
4.	Yes.
5.	Such steps will be taken in behalf of the well-being of the militia as the circumstances demand.



SUPPLY-PENSION TO HEADQUARTERS STAFF, PERMANENT MILITIA.

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The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding) moved that the House go again into Committee of Supply.
['\\V. Mounted Police .. .\tCanada \t\tPay\t Pension\t\t83 33 24 99\t83 32 33 33', 'Now, Mr. Speaker, that Is tlie table for tlie infantry. The cavalry and artillery, in all these services, get a little more, as they are looked upon as a more scientific branch. In regard to the district staff, I may point out that the officer who used to be known as the deputy adjutant general, now district officer commanding, receives in Canada a minimum of $1,700 per annum. An officer holding the same relative position in the British service receives $3,500 per annum, with an age retiring allowance. That, I think, will show that the pay given to our permanent corps is absurdly small as compared with the pay of similar men in the United States, and very much less than the pay in the British service. Now, nobody will say for a moment that our men are in any way inferior. They have proved themselves to be equally as good on the battlefield, in camp or in the office. And my contention is that, this being the case, and as we are now in the growing time in Canada, and as we are told by the government that there is a surplus, now is the time for the government to bring in a pension Bill giving these men what is justly due them.\nNow, it may be asked : Why should we be asked to give pensions to these men when they get such salaries as they do ? The answer to that is, that the pay given to these men is not such as to make it possible for them to save anything. Everybody knows- taking the officers first-that an officer must uphold his position, or he is not fit for the position, he must clothe himself well and live as a gentleman, but not extravagantly ; and we all know that when they are in barracks there are certain calls made on them that they cannot get out of. There is a certain amount of entertaining looked for from them, and an officer']
Hon.  E. G.@: PRIOR (Victoria, B.C.) Before you leave the Chair, Sir, I wish to make some remarks on a matter that I have very much at heart, and which is of great importance to the country at large, and I trust that hon. members on both sides, although they may not iu the past have taken much interest in this subject, will give me a patient hearing and due consideration to what I have to say. I refer to

the necessity for government pensions to the headquarters staff and the permanent corps of militia. It is now eight years since I first brought this matter before the House, and on several occasions since I have again introduced it to the attention of lion, members, but I am Sony to say that the subject has hitherto received but scanty consideration by either the government or the House. Now, however, there seems to be a very different feeling towards our Canadian militia, and I think this a favourable opportunity to again agitate this question.
Not only do we see a different feeling hero but also in Great Britain, where the volunteers and militia are looked upon to-day very differently from days gone by. We have seen in the last eighteen months the colonies of Canada and Australia and the other dependencies of Great Britain coming to the assistance of the mother country in her South African trouble. We have seen thousands of our most stalwart young men flying to the standard and volunteering to serve their Queen in the militia. I believe some 40,000 men volunteered to go to Soutli Africa from this country, but, of course, only a very small proportion were taken. I feel confident, therefore, that to-day this matter will receive more consideration than it did in the past, and I have no doubt the government are prepared to view it in a far more favourable spirit than in years gone by. As we know, the highest commands in regiments that we sent to South Africa were given to the officers from the permanent corps, which, to my mind, was the correct thing to do. Officers and men from the permanent corps went out to South Africa to uphold the honour of Canada, and right well did they do it. The names of Col. Otter, Buchan, Drury, Lessard and Pelletier and many others are household words not only in Canada but over the British Empire to-day. These were good men and true and deserving of all the credit given them and of the best treatment at the hands of the government. There is also another body of men which we must not forget, and that is the officers composing the headquarters staff in Ottawa. We all know that no army can be sent into the field unless thoroughly organized. It is no use sending battalions, however, well officered and however well trained unless the headquarters Mr. PRIOR.
staff have seen that the transport and commissariat and everything connected with the troops are in good running order before the troops start out. I am glad to say that when our troops were sent to South Africa the headquarters staff, considering the little practice they had had and the little time at their disposal, did very well indeed. The headquarters staff one might describe as the boiler for the engine of war. The engine cannot run unless the boiler is in good trim, and no army can be sent out properly equipped and organized unless the headquarters staff is proficient. In speaking thus of the permanent corps, I have no desire to belittle the officers and men of the active militia, who were largely in the majority and did equally well. We all know that many men in the active militia left their business and professions, gave up all, to go and serve their Queen in South Africa, some even giving up their commissions and taking places in the ranks. We have in this House an hon. gentleman who sits on my right, the hon. member for North Victoria (Mr. Hughes), who went out and did his duty manfully and well. We have also men on both sides of the House, whose sons have upheld the honour of Canada, as we expected them to do, and therefore I do not wish, in speaking only of the permanent corps, to be considered as in any wTay belittling the services rendered by the active militia. But as it is concerning the permanent corps that my remarks to-day are particularly addressed, I have of course to confine my argument to their case.
In as few words as possible, I wish to explain what the permanent corps is. The permanent corps of Canada was started in 1871, when two companies of regulars were appointed as a nucleus for the forming of a school of instruction for the active militia. They now are composed of a thousand men of different branches of the service, infantry, artillery and cavalry. And their particular duty is to form schools and to train instructors, to instruct the ordinary city and country corps of the active militia. Now, the reason I am asking that this pension should be brought in is, that these officers and men are, to all intents and purposes, regulars, just as much as the regulars of Great Britain or France or Germany, and they get less pay than do the

regulars in any other portion of the British Empire-so I believe. They certainly get very much less than do the men of the regular army of the United States. I have here a list giving the pay of the different armies and the permanent corps of Canada. I find that the privates and troopers of the permanent corps of Canadian infantry get 40 cents a day. If a man conducts himself well, he gets from 2 cents to 7 cents per day good-conduct pay. If he has the fortune to become a sergeant, his pay rises to 80 cents per day. But, it never goes higher ; and when he retires, after fifteen or twenty years' continual service, there is no pension for him. Now, the mounted police, who, I am glad to say, are as fine a body of men as ever sat in saddle, are on a different footing altogether. They have a pension ; they are on a somewhat similar footing as our civil servants are with reference to superannuation. For instance, a constable who has completed twenty years, when he retires receives a pension of $102.20 per
annum. If he has completed twenty-four years, he receives a pension of $132.86 per annum. If he has completed twenty-five years or thirty years, he receives a pension of $188.85. That is not very much, truly ; but, it is something for a man to look forward to when he has spent the best years of his life soldiering. The non-commissioned officers' pensions in the mounted police are larger. A staff sergeant receives $1 a day pay, and after twenty years' service retires on a pension of 60 cents a day, or $219 a year. So, it will be seen that they are on an altogether different footing from, and on a more favourable footing, than the noncommissioned officers and men of the permanent corps, though they are called upon to do very largely the same kind of work. Now, in regard to the officers. I have here a list of the British and United States regulars, the Canadian permanent corps and the North-west mounted police. 4fe.t the risk of tiring the House, I would like to give some of these pays and pensions :
Hank.
Lieutenant-Colonel.


Superintendent N.   W.@: Mounted Police.
Nation.
British	
United States. Canada... . Canada	
Pay and Pension.	After 15 Years' Service, per month.	After 20 Years' Service, per month.
	$ cts.	$ cts
Pay	133 25	133 25Pension	101 25	121 50Pay	325 00	333 33Pension	243 75	250 00Pay	120 00	120 00Pension 	Nil.	Nil.Pay	210 80	216 80Pension 	64 118	86 64Pay.. 	
Pension	
Pay	
Pension	84 60	84 60United States	Gratuity 87,776 195 00 162 50 105 00	Must retire before 20 years' service as Captain. 210 00 175 00 105 00


Superintendent N.   W.@: Mounted Police.		Pension	 Pay.. ..	Nil. 116 66	Nil. 116 66 46 64
		Pension		34 98	
	British		Pay.:	 Pension		47 40 Gratuity 7,776 60	
				
United States.	Pay	
Pension 	162 50 121 87	175 00 131 25Canada 	Pay	
Pension 	75 00 Nil.	75 00 Nil.


Inspector N.: \V. Mounted Police .. .	Canada 		Pay	 Pension		83 33 24 99	83 32 33 33

Now, Mr. Speaker, that Is tlie table for tlie infantry. The cavalry and artillery, in all these services, get a little more, as they are looked upon as a more scientific branch. In regard to the district staff, I may point out that the officer who used to be known as the deputy adjutant general, now district officer commanding, receives in Canada a minimum of $1,700 per annum. An officer holding the same relative position in the British service receives $3,500 per annum, with an age retiring allowance. That, I think, will show that the pay given to our permanent corps is absurdly small as compared with the pay of similar men in the United States, and very much less than the pay in the British service. Now, nobody will say for a moment that our men are in any way inferior. They have proved themselves to be equally as good on the battlefield, in camp or in the office. And my contention is that, this being the case, and as we are now in the growing time in Canada, and as we are told by the government that there is a surplus, now is the time for the government to bring in a pension Bill giving these men what is justly due them.
Now, it may be asked : Why should we be asked to give pensions to these men when they get such salaries as they do ? The answer to that is, that the pay given to these men is not such as to make it possible for them to save anything. Everybody knows- taking the officers first-that an officer must uphold his position, or he is not fit for the position, he must clothe himself well and live as a gentleman, but not extravagantly ; and we all know that when they are in barracks there are certain calls made on them that they cannot get out of. There is a certain amount of entertaining looked for from them, and an officer



[Stage Direction]
A Message was delivered by the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
The Right Honourable the Chief Justice of Canada, Deputy Governor, desires the immediate attention of your Honourable House in the Chamber of the Honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, with the House, went up to the Senate Chamber.
And having returned,
Mr. SPEAKER informed the House that the Right Honourable Deputy Governor had been pleased to give, in His Majesty's name, the Royal Assent to the following Bills
An Act relating to the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada.
An Act respecting the Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada.
An Act respecting the South Ontario Pacific Railway Company.
An Act respecting the Orford Mountain Railway Company.
An Act further to amend the Canada Evidence Act, 1893.
An Act respecting the Supreme Court of the Independent Order of Foresters and Mr. PRIOR.
An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money required for defraying certain expenses of the public service for the financial year ending June 30, 1901, and for other purposes relating to the public service.

['I shall require time to get some information to lay on the Table.']
Hon. Mr. PRIOR.: here. Now, I would like to say, while I am on this subject, that the call for men in the British Empire, including Canada, is insignificantly small with what it is in other civilized countries. In France, with a population of 38,000,000, there are 112 soldiers per thousand of the population ; in Germany, with a population of 52,000,000, there are 61 soldiers per thousand of the population ; in Russia, with a population of
129,000,000, they have 27 soldiers per thousand of the population, and in the British Empire, including India, Canada, Australia, and all the British possessions, with a population of 386,000,000, there are only 21 soldiers per thousand of the population. If we were to pay according to our total exports we should pay instead of $2,000,000 odd, $21,000,000, if, according to our total expenditure, $16,000,000, instead of $2,000,000 odd, for the defence of this country. Take It in any way you like, either by population, or exports, or expenditure, or per capita, we are only paying about one-tenth of what other civilized nations expend on defence. As I have said, I do not wish to be an alarmist, but we may be called upon at any moment, suddenly, to take part in what may prove to be a life and death struggle for the British Empire. Things are not going along too smoothly either in the east or in the west, and It behooves us as Canadians to take time by the forelock, and, as Lord Salisbury said in his speech before the Primrose League, ' let every man arm himself for the defence of the country.' There is another thing I would like to call the attention of the hon. Minister of Militia to, and it is that we should be in a position to manufacture our own rifles and our own ammunition. I am fully aware that at the present time we have a cartridge factory at Quebec, a factory which is, I believe, carried on in a very satisfactory manner, so far as it goes, but, I do not think that there is in the possession of Canada anything like sufficient ammunition or the amount of rifles that we should have. I am sorry to say that we cannot take the British Isles as an example to follow, for I find, in a most excellent article that I read in the Fortnightly Review some time ago under the heading of ' An Unarmed People,' that the reserve stock of rifles on hand in Great Britain last January was under 1,000. As fast as they are made they are shipped off, and in January last at the Cape in South Africa, for an army of
250,000	men they only had 230 rifles in reserve. That was a scandalous state of affairs. There was another case in which S00 volunteers were sent to the front to take their part against the enemy and rifles were put into their hands the day before they were sent to the front that not one man amongst them had ever handled before, so that it was simply impossible to expect the best results to be achieved by these men under these circumstances. Taking their own word for it, all that the factories in Mr. PRIOR.
Great Britain can turn out, if they are working over-time, are 20,000 rifles a month, whereas, in France, Austria, Germany and the United States, there are several factories that can turn out at least 65,000 rifles a month. We find that Great Britain is very much behind in the position of being able to supply a sufficient number of rifles for a large army.
Now, I feel certain that the government have only to ask for sufficient money to put us in a proper state of defence and readiness and they will find that the people of Canada are in the humour to give them all they ask. I never remember a time since I have been in this House, which has been for a great number of years, that there has been any murmuring against militia expenditure. Whenever the Minister of Militia has asked for certain sums for the militia I have never heard an hon. member get up in this House and say that he thought the amount required was extravagant. I believe that the members of the House are alive to the fact that Canada must take her part amongst the other colonies of Great Britain, and she can only do that by placing herself in a proper state of defence. Lt.-Col. Denison also showed that the sum of from $2 to $5 per head was the amount that was expended by the different civilized nations of the world for the defence of their countries, whereas, Canada, as 1 have already shown, expends only 40 cents per head. Surely the government would not take it amiss if I were to advise them that they should at least spend $1 per head, which would give $5,000,000, and which should be given to the hon. Minister of Militia to expend in the manner in which he thought best to produce desirable results, which would be only half of what other countries expend. In regard to this pension I would ask hon. gentlemen not to be afraid of the amount that it will come to. Before I sit down I intend to read what the English pension list comes to, but even that would amount to very little indeed if granted to the men who would call for it. If a Pension Bill were brought in now, I believe it would be some three or four years before a single man could claim the pension under this list that I shall read. I hope it is intended by the government that no man shall be allowed a pension whatever until he has served twenty years. Any man who leaves the service under that time will be young, and it should not be considered that he is entitled to any pension, at least, not in a country like this, but, when a man has served twenty years, I think he is entitled to a pension and a good one. I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that no man ought to get a pension unless the Minister of Militia is satisfied that his conduct has been good for the whole time during his service.
With regard to the number of men which Canada has sent to South Africa, we are liable to boast in this country that we have

done very well, but I can tell the House that If we sent the same number of men in proportion to our population that the British Isles sent, we would have sent thirty thousand men to South Africa instead of the three thousand that we did send. Great Britain sent 200,000 men, and in proportion to our population we would have sent
30,000.	We could have got 30,000 meu in Canada, and we could get 30,000 to-morrow, if their services were needed in defence of the empire. I presume that the mind of the minister (Hon. Mr. Borden) is made up pretty well as to what measure he shall submit to parliament, but if he should think of asking for anything which might be considered too small, there may be time yet for him to do full justice in the pensions. I have here the scale of pensions in the British army, taken from the Royal Warrant, and with the permission of the House I will read this document, in order to give an idea of what pensions are paid in the British army. I may say that I have turned the pounds, shillings and pence into dollars and cents, so that we may understand them more readily :
N. C. O.'s and Men-Seale of Pensions. 1160. Permanent pensions shall be granted, under the conditions laid down in Articles 1151 to 1159, according to the following daily scale, less (subject to Article 1209) a deduction of 1 cent a day, for every complete year of service rendered before the age of 18 (' service ' reckoning), as laid down in Article 1145, and ' qualifying service,' as laid down in Articles 1146 and 1147 : Non-Commissioned Officers-With not more than 21 years total service, and with the following continuous qualifying service immediately preceding discharge, or the completion of 21 years total service :-______
Class.	12 years As Sergeant.	50 rt h - S Sf >>
s CjCZJ X	6 years As Sergeant.	3 years As Sergeant.cts.	cts.	cts.	cts.1st	66	60	54	482nd 	60	54	48	423rd 	54	48	42	36
Privates-With not more than 21 years' service, and with the following qualifying service :-
Class.	21 years.	20 years.	19 years.	18 years.	14 to 18 years.5th	cts. 26	cts. 24	cts. 22	cts. 20	cts. *16-20
*1 cent being added for each year of qualifying service more than fourteen years.
These would be ridiculously small pensions for men in this country, where wages are very much higher than they are in Great Britain, and when the minister takes this matter into consideration, I would ask him to at least double these pensions, which are paid to non-commissioned officers and men who have served in the British army.
Combatant Officers.
515. Scale of Retired Pay-Voluntary Retirement
(subject to Article 511).
Second Lieutenant, Lieutenant or Captain,
after 15 years' service	 $ 600
Major (having substantive rank as such), with three years' service in his substantive rank-
After 15 years' service	 $ 600
After 25 years' service	 1,000
Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel (having substantive rank, not below that of Lieutenant-Colonel, with three years' service in his substantive rank-
After	15	years'	service	
1,250After	27	years'	service	
1,500After	30	years'	service	
1,825After completing the term of employment as substantive Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel, in our cavalry or infantry on retiring as a Colonel at the age of 55, if he held that rank on the 31st December, 1890, or was liable to retirement under Article 518-1	
2,100
526. Retirement of Combatant Officers generally on account of Medical Unfitness, and Scale of Retired Pay.
Second Lieutenant, Lieutenant, Captain or Major (with substantive rank as such).
If not Caused by Military Service (after 12 and not exceeding 15 years' service). -Retired pay equal to half-pay for such period only, not exceeding five years from the date of retirement from our , army ; after five years on half-pay (under Article 306), as our Secretary of State shall determine, according to the
merits of the case	Yearly
After 15 years' service	 $ 600	"
In the case of a Major, after 25
years' service	 1,000	"
If Caused by Military Service.-$1,000 a year, less $50 a year for each complete year of service less than 20, the minimum retired pay being, however, a rate equal to the half-pay of his rank. (In the case of an officer, at least 40 years of age, who was promoted from the ranks after having served not less than 10 years therein, the minimum retired pay shall, it the officer is retired as above, be $750 a year.)
All ranks above that of Major.-Same rates as for voluntary retirement, except that the condition of three years' service in the rank shall be omitted.
524. Retirement on Account of Age.
Yearly.
Second Lieutenant, Lieutenant or captain
(45 years)	 $1,000
Major, having substantive rank as such
(48 years)	 1,500
Lieutenant-Colonel, having substantive rank as such or regimental rank (55
years)	 1,825
(Or any higher rate to which the officer -would be entitled under Article 515-Voluntary retirement.)

Colonel, *with substantive rank (57 years), if not employed in a colonel's appointment (see Article 40)-
Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers and
Army Service Corps	 2,250
Cavalry and Infantry	 2,100
If employed in a Colonel's appointment (see Article 40) after the 31st December,
1890, and retired at or after the age of 57. 2,500
Pensions for Widows, &c.-Officers.
642. Pensions may he granted to the widows, and compassionate allowances to the children, of commissioned officers of our army dying either on the active or retired list, after the 30th June, 1881, at the following yearly rates, subject to the rules and limitations laid down in Articles 627 to 641-II ; and at twice the rate of compassionate allowance to each child, in the event of the children being motherless and in great pecuniary distress, provided the total amount granted to the family does not exceed the limit laid down in Article 640 :-
A. Ordinary Pension.
Colonel, provided he has been employed in a Colonel's appointment if a combatant officer, or in the rank of Colonel if a medical or departmental officer, after the 31st December, 1890 ; or, if a regimental Colonel, not being a General
Officer	
$500	$80Colonel, not employed as above after the 31st December, 1890 ; or Lieutenant-Colonel	
450	80Major	
350	70Captain	
250	60Lieutenant or	Second Lieutenant_____ 200	50
There are other pensions given to the intermediate ranks, which I will not take up time to refer to, and there are also certain gratuities granted, hut this list which I have read gives a very good idea of the pensions and allowances in the British service. The Minister of Militia no doubt has studied the British pensions perhaps more fully than I have, and with greater ability, and he must have come to the conclusion that there is nothing in these pensions which is at all exorbitant. Indeed, any one who gives the matter study must believe that these pensions are not too much for the men who have so well upheld the honour aud credit of Canada, and who are ready to do so in the future. If the minister (Hon. Mr. Borden) brings in a proper pension Bill he will make for himself a name in Canada that he will be proud of in days to come. Those who have studied the question will, I am satisfied, come to the conclusion that it is only a matter of justice to these men that they should have pensions. They are poorly paid ; they are men of intelligence ; they are men of probity ; they are the best class of men you can get in Canada, and surely it Mr. PRIOR.
is the duty of this country to see that they should be paid equally as well as men holding similar positions in any other branch of His Majesty's service.


Mr. ANDREW THORBURN THOMPSON (Haldimand and Monck).: Mr. Speaker, on some future occasion I propose to deal with matters of general interest to the militia of Canada at some length, but to-day I shall be very brief indeed in my remarks in reference to the subject which is now under the notice of the House. I have listened with a great deal of interest to the instructive remarks of the hon. member for Victoria, B.C. (Hon. Mr. Prior). I am sure that his speech embalmed in ' Hansard '-if I may use that expression-will be one to which we may refer on future occasions as to a mine of valuable information. To my mind, the question is :	will a retiring allowance
for the permanent force be in the best interests of the people of Canada ? To that question I give the most emphatic affirmative. It is now beyond dispute that we must have in Canada a militia ; and if we must have a militia, it should be an efficient one. The permanent force is a part of the active militia of Canada ; but the reason of its existence is not that it may serve as a garrison, because it is in numbers altogether inadequate to do so, but that it may be a training force for the rest of our active militia. I think I am within the mark when I say that no body of public servants has exerted itself more to the public advantage of this country than the permanent force. The officers of that body since its creation, have devoted themselves with untiring energy to the promotion of the efficiency of the force which they have had to instruct. I remember when the permanent force was first organized ; and I have been in the militia long enough to have seen the immense improvement which their work has brought about in the militia of the country. Only ten or twelve years ago, when I first went into camp at Niagara, I remember that almost every corps had to borrow an instructor from the per-mament force ; but to-day, if you go to that camp and pass from corps to corps, you will find in each one the officers and non-commissioned officers doing the work which formerly they had to employ others to do. That in itself is no small advantage to the country. In what respect does the permanent force differ from the civil service of Canada ? There is a marked difference. Owing to the possibility of war at any time, these men must be sound both in body and in mind, and consequently there is an age limit set to their service ; and when an officer reaches that age, it matters not how able he may be to perform his task, he must retire. In the civil service no such rule exists. and there is not the same reason for it. The result is that many men still, comparatively speaking, in their prime are cast

out of the force and left to do for themselves at an age when they are not fitted for other permanent employment. In many cases men who have been officers high in rank have been compelled to become messengers or to accept other positions of menial employment in which they are paid only from $1 to $1.50 per day, to keep themselves from actual starvation. While they are in the service we pay them enough to keep body and soul loosely together under a gay uniform, but not sufficient to enable them to provide for themselves after they retire and when they have to depend on their own resources. In asking for a retiring allowance for the permanent force our first care is not that force; it is the whole active militia. If we are to have a good active militia, we must 'iave good instructors for it ; and if we are to have good instructors in this com mercial age, we must hold out financial inducements sufficient to get men equal to the task. While in times past we have had most excellent men giving their services as permanent instructors, in the time to come, ir we have many more such examples as those I have given, of men being thrown out in their old age to get along as best they can, it will be an utter impossibility to secure good men for the permanent force of the country. Therefore, in these few words I wish to put myself on record as most strongly supporting the proposal of a retiring allowance for the permanent force of Canada.


Hon.   WM@: ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I have listened with considerable attention and a great deal of approval to the speech that has been made by the hon. member for Victoria B.C. (Hon. Mr. Prior). I think we are as a rule apt to boast too highly of what Canada has done in support of the Empire in the war in South Africa, whereas when we contrast what we have done with what has been done and is being done now by the Australian and New Zealand colonies, we ought to feel humbled and not proud. We all rejoice, at least I do as much as any man m Canada, at what has been achieved by the small number of officers and men whom we have sent out there. They have shown what our military men can' do in comparison with those of any other country. But let us look at the present condition of things. On the 13t.h of March last, Canada had in South Africa, 117 men, New South V ales had 78S, Victoria G25, Queensland 530, South Australia 300. West Australia 310 Tasmania 300 and New Zealand 1 352 I have felt all along that it has been perhaps a misfortune that the troops which were sent out from Canada were called back so soon. I think greater efforts should have been made to have them remain in that country. I may say that I have followed the history of the Military College of Kingston with considerable pride. I occupv the 95	'
proud position of being able to state that on the 5th of May, 1874, I introduced the Bill for the establishment of that institution, and passed it through all its stages in this House. There was no ' Hansard ' in those days, and I was curious to see if I could recollect something of the speech which I attempted to make on that occasion. A report of it was given in the Globe-and I suppose it is not out of order to refer to a speech that was made twenty-seven years ago. I stated that the introduction of such a measure was new in the history of Canada; and I gave an outline of the history of thg West Point school in the neighbouring republic, and alluded to several eminent men who were trained in that great institution. In this connection I think that the government of Canada should have in view the object of finding profitable and useful employment for the men who are turned out of that institution, because the training they receive there fits them eminently for the public service. If they are thus employed, there is no doubt that they will reflect credit on themselves, the institution, and the country. At that time I suggested that the properly trained men who would be turned out of the military college would be the right men for the training of our own militia -that they would be better fitted to command and direct our own militia than men from the other side of the Atlantic.
There is a great deal of difference in the ideas entertained by military officers from Great Britain and those of Canadian officers taken from this side, and it will always be found that our men will do better under our own officers than those of the Imperial service. When I was in charge of the department, I found more trouble from the brigade officers in the public service who came from the other side, and who were imbued with ideas that could not be well controlled, than from any Canadians. I am glad to find that the hon. the Minister of Militia thinks favourably of granting pensions, and I am sure that such a policy will be favourably received by this House. I am not a mind-reader, but I feel pretty well convinced that the Minister of Militia, when the rate of pension was mentioned by my hon. friend from Victoria, B.C., was of the opinion that that was a subject which should be very properly left with the government, and that is my own idea. I only refer to this matter because I have taken a good deal of interest in the development of our military system in Canada, and have always been of the opinion that our work covered too much ground, and was consequently not as effectively done as it otherwise might be. This perhaps may not apply to small towns, but you will find that in the large towns, the colonels of regiments, in order to keep up the strength of their various corps, have to run around seeking raw recruits almost every year, as those who drilled one year are not to be found the following year, and must

be replaced by new men. That is not tbe way to have an effective system of defence. I did not intend to speak on this subject, but out of curiosity, 1 thought I would look back to my own record, and the journals of the House will show that on the 5th of May, 1874, the Bill to establish the Military College at Kingston was introduced by myself


Mr SAM. HUGHES (North Victoria).: I regret, Mr. Speaker, that a severe cold will render my remarks not very audible to the House, but perhaps some hon. members will not share my regret and will rather rejoice that I am not able to enter at any length into the very interesting question which has been so ably presented by my hon. friend from Victoria, B.C. (Mr. Prior). I was very much pleased to find in the person of the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat (Mr Boss), a former Minister of Militia, and also that he is true to the principle which, as a Liberal, he advocated away back in 1874. In that respect, I think he occupies a position of splendid isolation among his colleagues. The hon. gentleman took credit for the establishment of the Royal Military College at Kingston, which we in Ontario had always supposed was the work of our good friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright). But to whomever the credit may be due, it is an institution of which Canada has a right to feel proud, and concerning which the remarks made by our hon. friend, who has just spoken, will meet with hearty appreciation on this side.
I agree with the hon. member for Haldi-mand (Mr. Thompson) that a permanent corps is undoubtedly necessary in this country, not as a fighting, but as an educative force. For the last ten or eleven sessions I have endeavoured to show, to the best of my poor ability, that in order to be successful in war, a country must depend on its volunteer force and militia, but none the less we must have a permanent corps, and one, I believe, even larger than the one we have to-day, as an educational institution ; and in order that this corps may be composed of the very best men available, I would urge on the attention of the Minister of Militia one or two requisites. The men must be well qualified and be better paid than they are now. What are the facts . Although comparisons are odious, I cannot refrain from making one which is very apt. A third-class clerk enters^ the civil ser\ ice without any special training, and compare the salary of such an official, who does not require any special training, but has only to pass a trivial examination, with that paid, not to a second lieutenant or a first lieutenant, but a captain in the permanent corps. And what are the conditions of the latter ? Every one knows that the conditions attending our permanent corps are very extravagant. A visitor calls at the barracks, and if not entertained, he goes off and says Mr. ROSS (Victoria).
that the permanent corps fellow is a chump and discredits him up and down the country. These men have to maintain an expensive uniform and do a large amount ot entertaining that really should be charged to the country and not to themselves. I would respectfully direct the attention of the minister to the fact that the pay of these oflicers is absurdly low-nothing like what is paid third-class clerks in these departments. I trust that in the new Bill, which the hon. gentleman promises us, he will not only provide for a pension but also for increased pay. I am very grateful to my hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. Prior) for the kindly reference he made to myself, but I must take exception to one of the statements he made, and one which was briefly touched on by my hon. friend from Haldi-mand That statement was that the officers of the permanent corps were rightly and should be chosen in preference to the officers of the ordinary active militia in times of active service.


Edward Gawler Prior: I did not mean that.


Mr. HUGHES (North Victoria).: I am very glad to hear my hon. friend's disclaimer. The hon. member for Victoria, B.C., has pointed out the number of men under arms in South Africa in March last. Let me briefly submit a statement of the number from the various colonies who served in Africa throughout the war. Out of every ten thousand of population, New Zealand sent twenty-seven of her best sons to the front. Out of every ten thousand. Australia and Tasmania sent seventeen to the front. And out of every ten thousand Canada sent five to the front. New Zealand sent twenty-seven to Canada's five.
Reference has been made here to the magnificent service done by the Canadians in South Africa, and I can cordially endorse every statement about the gallantry of Canadian officers and men. But I also wish to be placed on record as stating that throughout the whole of the South African trouble, there were no troops, imperial or colonial, who could in any sense surpass those from New Zealand or Australia. Not that the men were any better, mark you, but the officers of the New Zealand and Australian forces were almost entirely taken from the ordinary active militia of the country, composed of farmers and business men, who were purely volunteers. These men had that individual development that-there is no use in attempting to deny it-a life in barracks, or a life passed in the permanent occupation of the soldier, does not develop to the same extent as do the ordinary avocations of life. I wish to be placed on record as believing that the great success that has attended the efforts of the New Zealanders and the Australians, as well as the other colonial forces, during the South African war, is largely due to the individuality of the officers, who have not been in all cases, or nearly all cases, men

of the permanent corps. Let me not he understood as urging this in the slightest as an argument against the idea that the officers of our permanent corps ought to be better paid than they are, and ought to have a pension assigned them after the completion of a certain number of years' service. These men I have always regarded as teachers, educationalists rather than as military men. Ten years ago I expressed this view-that these men were really military educationalists-and I have never seen reason to change my view. I trust that the minister will not only provide a system of pensions, but, by the training he gives these men, will bring to the front the best educative talent in the military life of this country, so that our military schools and colleges and the various departments of our military organization may be filled up with the best men the country can secure.


Mr. CHARLES S. HYMAN (London).: I would hardly like the discussion of this matter to leave, either with the House or with the people, the idea that only those who are officers in the militia or who, like my hon. friend from Victoria, N.S., (Hon. Mr. Ross) have been Ministers of Militia, take an interest in the question. As a layman, I may say that I am extremely interested in the debate brought forward by the hon. member for Victoria, B.C., (Hon. Mr. Prior), and I desire to express my hearty concurrence in the idea that there should be a proper and satisfactory retiring allowance made for the officers and men of the permanent corps of Canada, upon such lines as the government may find it best to adopt. I feel perfectly safe in saying that the hon. minister, if he does introduce a Bill of that character, will receive the hearty support of this side of the House, and I am glad to know, from what has been stated by hon. gentlemen on the other side, that there is every reason to believe that he will receive the almost unanimous concurrence of the other side. If we desire to build up a proper system of militarism- if I may use that term-in Canada, it is necessary that we should enlist the very best of the young men of this country. It is necessary that they should be men of good character, it is necessary that they should be men of brains, it is necessary that they should be men of good physique. And, after we have used the best years of their lives in the service of the country, it does seem to me that it is not in accordance with what ought to be if we turn them out like old horses to die or live as they may. It is the law of the land that there is a retiring allowance for the civil servants ; and I hold that there is even greater reason for a law giving an allowance on the retirement of those who have served the country as members of the permanent military force, either as officers or as privates. I quite agree with a great deal of what has been said with regard to the 95J
expenditure which is necessary on the part not only of the officers, but of the noncommissioned officers and men of the permanent force while they are members of that force. I speak whereof I know when I say that it is almost impossible for them, when they are in the permanent force, to maintain themselves. I know, not one case only but several cases, of officers, men high in rank, who, after they had been retired owing to age, have had actually to accept, I might say almost menial service for the rest of their lives, and I do not think that is in accordance with the wishes of the people of Canada ; and I think it has only to be laid before the House and the people for them to appreciate the fact, and to stand behind the minister, if he sees fit to introduce this Bill. If there is one thing with which I might find fault with the military system of Great Britain it would be with the well-known fact, that only those possessed of private means can accept and hold commissions in regiments of the line, or in any branch of the service. In Canada we should not confine our enlistment of men to serve their country in the permanent force to those who have private incomes, and who are able, in a financial sense, to accept the small pay offered to the members of that force. I think it should be free to every young Canadian who desires to serve his country, and who is otherwise qualified to accept the position and, after he has got past the best years of his life, he should not be turned aside, but some provision should be made for him in his old age. I do not know what the provision of the Bill will be, nor do I desire to make any extended remarks ; but, when the Bill comes forward, 1 hope it will be received by both sides in no spirit of partyism, but will be dealt with simply from the point of view of the interest of the permanent force. And I do not know anything that will more forward that interest and the interest of the militia of Canada than the introduction of such a Bill and its enactment into law.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE (Hon. F. W. Borden).: My hon. f riend from Victoria, B.C. (Mr. Prior) has anticipated the discussion which, I suppose, we shall have on the Pension Bill of which I have given notice, and which I hope to introduce to the House within a day or two. But, I am sure that my hon. friend has done this from the very best of motives, and I do not at all quarrel with him for having done so -in fact, I am very glad he has taken this course, because I think the discussion that has taken place to-day will have the effect of preparing the House, to a certain extent, and in a favourable sense, for the Bill when it comes forward. We have heard to-day from hon. gentlemen who hold commissions in the militia, one of whom was at one time, a good many years ago, when I first entered this House, Minister of Militia. And,

not less important, we have hail the testimony also of an hon. gentleman who is not a military man, but who supported this proposal quite as strongly as any of the military gentlemen have done. Now, I do not think it would be convenient, nor would it tend to the advancement of the business of the House, for me to anticipate the remarks which I intend to make /When I bring down the Bill. I shall, therefore, make only one or two observations. It is perfectly true, as has been stated by my hon. friends, that we have failed in the past in Canada to make adequate provision for the permanent force of this country. It has been pointed out that the duties to be performed by the permanent force are most important. The members of this force are the instructors, the educators, of the active militia. That I have always held to be their proper sphere. And it is our duty, even more so than it would be if they were simply for the purpose of doing garrison duty, to provide for	these	men in such a
way that the country shall be sure of always having men fitted for the Important duty which devolves upon them. That cannot be done under their present rate of pay without providing pensions for them. Something has been said with reference to the rate of pay. I shall not go into that here, but I am at one with my hon. friends who are of the opinion that it ought to be larger than it is. However, we will have done a great deal towards making up for this deficiency if we pass into law the Bill which I shall bring before the House, and which will provide, somewhat on the lines of the old Civil Service Superannuation Act, for a retiring allowance after a service of twenty years. My hon. friend from Victoria. B.C. (Mr. Prior) has referred to the desirability of granting pensions to non-commissioned officers and men. I may say to him, and to the House, that it has seemed to me for a long time that there was no reason why a distinction should be made between the North-west Mounted Police, who are granted pensions, and our permanent force, which is called upon to do duty somewhat similar. I shall therefore propose as a part of my Bill that the law which now applies to the pensioning of non-commissioned officers and men of the North-west Mounted Police shall equally apply to the non-commissioned officers and men of the permanent militia. We find it very difficult now to get suitable men to do the important work of the permanent force. I hope after my Bill becomes law that we shall have very much less trouble in that regard. It is not proposed, as my hon. friend seemed to imply, that we shall ask for any contribution towards the fund from the non-commissioned officers and men. It will be somewhat similar to the old Superannuation Act, except that no contribution


Mr. BORDEN (King's).: is required from the non-commissioned officers towards any fund ; they receive their pension without any deduction being made from their pay during the time they serve. That, I think, is proper. I will just state this one further point with reference to what the Bill contains. I do not feel that we can go so far as that in the case of the officers, and I propose to ask that an annual deduction, as in the case of the old Superannuation Act, pei'haps a little larger, shall be made from the pay to the officers. But I think it will be found that the return which is proposed will be very large, so large that, the officers will cheerfully make this subscription.
One further point. My hon. friend from Victoria, B.C., did not point out, although I presume he is aware of the fact, that at the present time, and for many years past,, we have been in the habit of giving, under an order in council, passed a long time ago, a gratuity to the officers and men of the staff and of the permanent force upon their reaching the age limit. We propose now practically to convert the gratuity to which they would be entitled, which is one-tenth of their pay at the time of retirement for each year of service, we propose now to discontinue that gratuity, but to give it in the form of a pension ; so that the officers of the permanent force will not only get what the annual amount they contribute to the fund would "ive them, but in addition they will get all they would have been entitled to under the present system, converted into an annuity ; that is to say that the government is practically purchasing an annuity with the gratuity which they at present receive. They will get the gratuity which they would have had, and in addition they will get the fu-U benefit of the amount of money which they will be asked annually to contribute out of their pay. My hon. friend from Victoria, B.C., referred to many other matters which I would like to touch upon, for instance, the Royal Military College, the interesting calculations made by Col. Geo. Denison, the cartridge factory, and the supply of rifles, &c. ; but it seems to me that these matters could be discussed, as they doubtless will be, much more conveniently when the militia estimates are brought before the House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House went into committee.
Commissioner's branch for agriculture and dairying, including cold storage on steamships, on railways, at warehouses and creameries, and for expenses in connection with trial shipments of products, and for securing improvements and recognition of the quality of Canadian farm products, $140,000.
['is required from the non-commissioned officers towards any fund ; they receive their pension without any deduction being made from their pay during the time they serve. That, I think, is proper. I will just state this one further point with reference to what the Bill contains. I do not feel that we can go so far as that in the case of the officers, and I propose to ask that an annual deduction, as in the case of the old Superannuation Act, pei\'haps a little larger, shall be made from the pay to the officers. But I think it will be found that the return which is proposed will be very large, so large that, the officers will cheerfully make this subscription.\nOne further point. My hon. friend from Victoria, B.C., did not point out, although I presume he is aware of the fact, that at the present time, and for many years past,, we have been in the habit of giving, under an order in council, passed a long time ago, a gratuity to the officers and men of the staff and of the permanent force upon their reaching the age limit. We propose now practically to convert the gratuity to which they would be entitled, which is one-tenth of their pay at the time of retirement for each year of service, we propose now to discontinue that gratuity, but to give it in the form of a pension ; so that the officers of the permanent force will not only get what the annual amount they contribute to the fund would "ive them, but in addition they will get all they would have been entitled to under the present system, converted into an annuity ; that is to say that the government is practically purchasing an annuity with the gratuity which they at present receive. They will get the gratuity which they would have had, and in addition they will get the fu-U benefit of the amount of money which they will be asked annually to contribute out of their pay. My hon. friend from Victoria, B.C., referred to many other matters which I would like to touch upon, for instance, the Royal Military College, the interesting calculations made by Col. Geo. Denison, the cartridge factory, and the supply of rifles, &c. ; but it seems to me that these matters could be discussed, as they doubtless will be, much more conveniently when the militia estimates are brought before the House.']
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney A. Fisher).: I desire to add the following words to this item :

The employees to be paid from this vote not to be subject to the Civil Service Act.
The employees in this branch have never been paid under the Civil Service Act; the Auditor General has lately informed us that the law would hardly justify that. He does not object that they should he paid as they have been paid, but he has asked that these words should be put in so as to make it perfectly clear that it is justifiable to pay them without reference to the Civil Service Act. I may say that these employees are largely outside, employed all over the country. Some of them work part of the time here, and part of the time outside. The work in this branch is so mixed up that it is impossible for the rules of the Civil Service Act to apply to them.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not know whether the hon. gentleman has already given the committee any statement with regard to the condition in which the cold storage is on steamship lines. I have heard it stated that there is a great deal of difficulty in securing accommodation for Canadian products on steamers possessing cold storage facilities.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not given any explanation of that, but I shall be very glad to do so. The re port which the hon. gentleman has heard that there has been difficulty in securing accommodation is not at all founded on the facts. As a matter of fact, last year, I venture to say that there was not a case where anybody asking for cold storage accommodation could not secure it. The products that are chiefly sent in cold storage are butter and meat. Some of the steamers which had been under contract for us to supply cold storage accommodation from St. Lawrence ports were employed in carrying troops and supplies to South Africa, and for a time, in the early part of last year, these vessels were not running from Can ada. In the early part of the season there is no very great demaffid for cold storage accommodation ; it is in July, or after July, that this demand arises and soon after that time there was an abundance of cold storage accommodation. The only line that did not put on these ships which had been under contract, was the Elder-Dempster line to Bristol, but they put on some other ships, so that in the fall of the year, when there was the greatest demand for cold storage, there was cold storage accommodation to Bristol as well as other English ports. I venture to say, speaking without having the actual figures at my command, that there was full accommodation for all the products that shippers wished to go forward in cold storage. I am reminded that there was a lack of accommodation from Nova Scotia. We had a contract with the Furness-Withy Company for cold storage accommodation from Halifax which required the sending of vessels and they took these vessels off with
out any notice and without fulfilling their contract. We are now dealing with them as to the matter. This was the only occasion of a lack of accommodation, and I may say that cold storage accommodation from Nova Scotia has been very little availed of. Their reasons for taking off their vessels were that they were losing money up to that time.


Robert Laird Borden: The circumstances that were brought! to my attention very incidentally were not in connection with Nova Scotia, but in connection with the shipment of poultry. A gentleman in Toronto told me that he had engaged in the business of shipping poultry to the old country and that he had been handicapped, to a certain extent, by not being able to procure sufficient cold storage accommodation on the steamers. Of course, I know nothing of the particulars myself.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think that what the hon. gentleman refers to was due to the fact that poultry did not go forward until the winter season. Our contracts with the vessels were for the open navigation of the St. Lawrence. When the vessels are taken off the St. Lawrence route, most of them go to Portland as we never made any arrangement requiring cold storage accommodation from United States ports. The Manchester liners sailed from St. John and Halifax this last year and they carried cold storage products from Canada to England all winter, but there was no coid storage accommodation to other ports in Great Britain except to Liverpool and Manchester. There were some slight complaints in consequence of most of the Canadian cold storage vessels going to Portland in the winter.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: Is cold storage required in the winter time ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: For poultry it is. If we send poultry to the English market cold storage will be required, and I trust to make future arrangements by which we will secure that as much as possible from Canadian ports. I have never undertaken in any way to control, or assist in providing cold storage from American ports. I do not think that it would be wise or proper for parliament to do that. We do not undertake to control cold storage on the vessels that are taken off the Canadian trade and put on the American trade in winter time.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: Are they not the same vessels -?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: A large number of vessels that come to Montreal in summer, as the hon. gentleman knows, go to Portland in winter.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: They have cold storage already provided.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: They have cold storage facilities, but we do

not enforce their use, and the trouble was that some people wished to send poultry forward via Portland. Although it went on steamers fitted with cold storage, the cold storage was not worked, because there was not enough to make it pay the owners of the steamers, and by the contract they had with us they were not obliged to provide cold storage when sailing from an American port.


Mr. INGRAM.: The government, I understand, pays for the icing of these cold storage cars ?


The MINISTER OP AGRICULTURE.: Yes.


Andrew B. Ingram: Would the hon. gentleman give us an idea what it pays per car ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The arrangement that we make with the railway companies is that we pay for the icing of the cars and we also guarantee that each car shall earn two-thirds of its capacity of freight. We have sometimes to make up the deficit on that, but the deficit on the whole season has been very small, and it has not been increasing, although we have increased very largely the number of lines on which these cars run. We find that after a car has run for a season or two, the people get to understand it and there is enough freight to fulfil the conditions without our being called upon to fulfil our guarantee. The cost of icing last year was $3 to $6 per car according to the distance it has to go.


Robert Laird Borden: To what products is this restricted ?
, The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE. I would not like to say that it is restricted at all, but, as .a matter of fact, butter, fruit and poultry are the only products that are so sent.


Robert Laird Borden: I would like to know whether it would apply to fresh fish ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, anybody would be perfectly at liberty to send fresh fish in these cars. But, these cars are intended to run from the west to the east, that is to say, they are for the export trade and not intended to apply to the internal trade of the country so much. Therefore, fish coming up from the maritime provinces to Ontario or Quebec, I do not think, would be able to avail itself of these cars, but, any fish passing, for instance, from Moncton to St. John or from Moncton to Halifax, or from further up the line to Halifax or St. John, would have these cars available for its carriage.


Robert Laird Borden: 
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: These shipments from eastward to Montreal are for export from Montreal. A great deal of even maritime province butter and cheese is handled by exporters in Montreal and shipped from that port to England. The Intercolonial Railway has a regular system of cold storage cars from Metis westward to Montreal.


Robert Laird Borden: If it is desirable to adopt that principle with respect to the export trade, it might be taken into consideration as to whether it is not desirable to adopt it for the purpose of increasing the trade in fresh fish between the maritime provinces and the provinces of Quebec and Ontario. That trade has developed to an enormous extent during- the last few years. It has developed on account of faster freight trains and on account of cold storage facilities being to some extent supplied. At present a very large portion of the Montreal fish trade is supplied from American ports. There is no reason in the world why the Canadian fishermen should not participate in that trade to a very much greater extent than they do at present. The statistics of this trade during the past few years are

given in this report, and they are very striking. I shall read some further conclusions from this report to which I have not yet drawn the attention of the House. It says : That every effort he made to shorten as much as practicable the time of the through freight train running between Mulgrave and Montreal and that close connection be secured, if possible, for points west of Montreal.
That is a matter which I propose to bring to the attention of the Minister of Railways as it does not concern the Department of Agriculture.
That the department of the Federal government having charge of the cold storage operations be requested to assist the transportation of fresh fish in less than car-load lots in the same way as they are at present assisting the shipping of butter and cheese to Montreal.
I understand from the minister that this assistance is given for the purpose of export for England. If it be desirable in that case it would be equally desirable to do it for the purpose of building up the trade be-1 tween our own provinces, and I have not the slightest doubt that with such assistance as is suggested in this report a very large trade in fresh iish may be built up between the maritime provinces and the provinces of Quebec and Ontario. It is of very great importance to the fishermen of the maritime provinces that this should be done, because they could get very much more for their fish in that way than they can by curing their fish and exporting it to the West Indies or Brazil. In the interests of the fishermen of the maritime provinces, as well as in the general interests of the country which would be advanced by building up that interprovincial trade, the suggestions made in this report very well deserve the attention of the government.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I fully appreciate the advantage of such work as is there suggested. The matter has not come under my own special notice inasmuch as I have been dealing in all this cold storage matter in reference to agricultural products. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries has taken up the question of cold storage for bait in connection with the fisheries, and I shall be very glad to discuss with him the possibility of providing the facilities necessary for that interprovincial trade in fresh fish. While our cold storage trade arrangements are guided by the interests of the export trade, yet our refrigerator cars are also available for the internal trade. For instance, butter or poultry or fruit consigned from Toronto to Montreal or from Windsor to Toronto can be put in these cars just as if these products were billed for export. There is no discrimination made, but still all our organization has been carried on with the object of dealing with the export trade, and it was with that view that the House voted the money originally. I sympathize very much with the desire of the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Borden) to encourage our interprovincial trade, and if the House should see fit I am disposed to think that the cold storage arrangements which have been found so successful might be extended to the trade in fresh fish.


Mr. HACKETT.: Some time ago the Minister of Agriculture informed me that there were negotiations pending for the purpose of providing cold storage between Prince Edward Island and Great Britain. How far have these negotiations progressed ? Spring is now here; shipping will be moving and it is essential in the interests of the farmers of Prince Edward Island that they should have the same facilities which the people of the other provinces have for shipping their products in cold storage to England.
The MINISTER OF* AGRICULTURE. The cold storage would, of course, come under my department, but the arrangement for a service from Prince Edward Island to Great Britain comes under the Department of Trade and Commerce. We have had a standing offer for a number of years that any ships leaving Prince Edward Island for Great Britain should get the same terms for cold storage as ships leaving Halifax, St. John and Montreal. If there is not a regular service from Prince Edward Island we cannot make arrangements for cold storage accommodation. The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright) is now negotiating with two or three ship-owning firms for a service this year, and which, I trust, will last longer than this year. I have made an offer to these firms to give them encouragement for cold storage accommodation. More than that, the Minister of Trade and Commerce has told them distinctly, in conjunction with myself that no vessel which is not properly fitted up with mechanical cold storage will be accepted for the Prince Edward Island trade. I may say that last year and the year before, some slight arrangements were made in regard to vessels sailing from Prince Edward Island ; but these vessels were not fitted up with mechanical cold storage. They were supplied partly with refrigerator chambers cooled by ice ; but, as has been found in the trade from other ports of Canada, these chambers are not satisfactory. While better than nothing, they are not what we think is due to the trade in food products from Prince Edward Island. I, therefore, urged very strongly on my colleagues, and they have agreed with me and insisted upon it, that any vessel getting a subsidy for service from Prince Edward Island to English ports shall be fitted up with mechanical cold storage of the most modern type and description.


Edward Hackett: I am very thankful to the hon. gentleman for his explanation ; but I wish ft) distinguish between him and the

Minister of Trade and Commerce. The explanation of the hon. Minister of Agriculture, while very elaborate, is not very satisfactory to the people 1 represent. I would like to ask him how far the negotiations have gone on, and whether he is in a position to sfate that the people in Prince Edward Island, who are depending on this cold storage accommodation, will have proper ships this year in which to send their products to the English markets ?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE.: I trust that when the supplementary estimates come down I shall be able to give the hon. gentleman the explanation he requires. Just at present negotiations are going on with two or three separate parties, and I am hardly in a position to go into details.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I highly approve of the remarks made by the hon. and learned leader of the opposition, in urging the necessity of having a better and more rapid mode of transit for the fresh fish of Cape Breton to the Canadian markets. It is a matter of regret to us to find that the markets here and west of us are supplied from Portland instead of from the Strait of Canso. The cold storage system which is about to be adopted for bait is a very different thing from what is required to forward fresh fish in proper condition to the best markets in Canada. We require not only good cold storage, but we require rapid transit, so that the fish may be got to these markets in good condition ; and the earlier they get there, of course, the better it is both for the shippers and those who have the advantage of eating the fish. I think it would also be of advantage to the people of the west if they would get into the habit of using more salt water fish. It might expand their ideas, and enable them to take broader views of public questions than they appear to do at present.


Mr. ALCORN.: Will the minister state in detail what steps are-proposed to be taken, in tiie words of this item, for securing improvement and recognition of the quality of Canadian farm products ?'


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I shall be very happy to do that; but if the hon. gentleman will allow me to call it six o'clock. I shall give him some details immediately after dinner, as I would rather not be interrupted while giving them.
At six o'clock, committee took recess. After Recess.
Committee resumed at eight o'clock.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: When the House rose at recess, my hon. friend opposite asked me what was done by the department to secure an improved Mr. HACKETT.
recognition of the quality of Canadian farm products in foreign markets. I am very glad to have this opportunity of making a short statement with regard to this work. It is one which has largely been developed. The department has taken up the question of cold storage, which has now taken a wider area than would be indicated by the term, although in a general way the lines of work are cognate to cold storage transportation, and the proper preservation of food products during shipment abroad. When, some years ago, I asked for a vote of money to enable me to establish a chain of cold storage transportation, the object I principally had in view was the transportation of our Canadian butter into the English market. For years our cheese trade had been in a most satisfactory condition. The reputation of our cheese abroad had become very great and the business was a profitable one, but our Canadian butter had not a very good reputation, and did not command the high price it should, owing largely, if not altogether, to the lack of proper transportation facilities. Our butter in Canada was made very well, its quality in the Canadian market was excellent, but on reaching the English market it showed a certain deterioration. To remedy this difficulty, we provided cold storage facilities, equipping the main lines of railway with refrigerator cars and establishing cold warerouses where the butter could be stored until shipped from Montreal, Halifax and St. John, and providing mechanical cold storage accommodation on board the trains and steamers. Up to that time what work was done in the way of cold storage was done in furnishing ice-cold storage and had not accomplished the object desired. The moment that mechanical cold storage accommodation was provided, the attention of our people was turned to utilizing it for other products. Prof. Robertson and myself, when in England, found an ample opening for the sale of our poultry in that country, and we immediately undertook experiments in connection with the fattening and proper dressing of our poultry and sending it forward, which resulted in a pretty satisfactory trade being established, with the prospect of a very large increase. Attempts were made also to send forward such delicate products as peaches, pears and grapes, and, in a few instances, plums. 'These were partially successful. But we found that with the best cold storage accommodation, it was difficult to carry some of the fruit in the ordinary way of packing and handling them. We found that the result depended largely on the exact condition of the fruit when packed in cold storage on this side. It did not matter how well the transportation arrangements were perfected, if the fruit was not in a certain exact condition when packed. We found that of two specimens of a particular variety of fruit, packed in similar boxes, carried under ex-

actly tlie same conditions, and handled in exactly the same way, one would arrive in perfect condition and command a high price, and tlie other would arrive In a rotten condition and have to be thrown away. To a certain extent we have solved many of the problems, but do not pretend that they are all solved, but we have clearly proved that in certain conditions we have succeeded in carrying forward fine peaches satisfactorily while pears have been sent forward almost invariably with success. As far as the carriage is concerned, grapes have been sent forward pretty successfully, but we have been met with the difficulty that the English market, as a rule, does not appreciate our grapes as the Canadian market does, so that that trade is still in an experimental stage.
We found, notwithstanding the excellent reputation of our cheese in England, that which is made in the summer and is forwarded in the hot weather, does not command the high price and reputation that does the June and September cheese, and to-day we are trying to solve the problem of bringing about a condition of affairs under which our cheese, shipped all through the season, may be successfully put on the English market, so that in future July cheese will be sold in England at as high a price as June or September cheese and enjoy as high a reputation.
We also found ourselves in a position to investigate the transportation of our principal fruit product, the apple, and found ourselves face to face with the complaints formulated by the fruit-growers and shippers of this country. These complaints were loud, and we felt it necessary to do all we could to find out just where the faults lay.
Two years ago last summer we sent an agent to England to supervise all that was going on in the English market in connection with our Canadian food product trade. He watched the arrivals and made a carefully detailed report. That season we sent only one agent over. I myself and Prof/ Robertson also made a trip to England that season and investigated the condition of affairs there. The reports from our agent were of such a character that they gave us an immense amount of information, but still not nearly enough, and next year we sent him over again with an assistant, and again this year, as a result of the value of the reports we received, we had no less than four agents spending the season in England and looking after this branch of our trade. The chief agent, the one whom we sent over first and who had the most experience, was detailed to watch the Manchester and Liverpool trade with headquarters at Liverpool. We also had an agent stationed in each of the cities of Glasgow, London and Bristol, and during this last season we have had constant reports from these various officers, and now have in the hands of the commissioner of agriculture and dairying, an amount of correspondence and evidence, which,
when sifted out and worked into a report, will be of enormous value to those engaged in the trade in this country.
In connection with this, however, we found another state of affairs. While these gentlemen reported to us the condition of arrival in England of our Canadian fruit products, we had their reports of their arrival very frequently in a damaged condition, and the problem was to find out just where that damage occurred-whether it was in the original package, whether it was in the transportation with this country from the point of production to the port in Montreal, Halifax or St. John ; or whether it was in the ship going across the ocean. Therefore, to complete the investigation and to make it as effective as possible, we came to the conclusion that it was necessary to have officers on this side at the ports of shipment who would report upon the condition in which these various articles were put upon the ships. Therefore, I appointed several men in Montreal, Halifax and St. John to watch the condition of these products as they arrived in the cars from up the country, as they were handled in the port of shipment, and as they were put upon the ship. By reason of the appointment of these officers, I have had what I consider to be a pretty complete chain of evidence as to the way our fruit products have been handled and have gone forward. We have also been able to get a great deal of evidence which was of the utmost value, in my opinion, and which has largely determined my views as to the Bill which passed the other day, known as the Fruit Marks Bill, in regard to the packing of our apples especially. Now, in this connection, two or three things have developed. As I remarked a little while ago, in regard to the cheese, when we first began our work we did not really undertake to investigate the cheese trade. We thought that that trade was pretty thoroughly established on a firm and profitable basis. We knew that Canada had a very high reputation on the English market for cheese. As a matter of fact, we sent over between 60 and 70 per cent of all the cheese sent over to England, and that cheese had a most enviable reputation on the English market. But, we took it as a matter of course that our summer cheese was not as good as the rest: and most people in this country thought it could not be as good as the cheese made in June and September. The summer cheese was, to a certain extent, hurting the reputation of all our cheese in the English market, because it was sold as Canadian cheese-which it was-and the reputation of its comparatively poor quality injured that of all our cheese. It was true that it was sold as Canadian July or August cheese, but its sale had an injurious effect upon us in the English market. Therefore, in the course of our work, we directed our attention to find out in what way that difficulty could be overcome. We found out

two things : In the first place, we found out that our cheese made in the hot weather is cured in curing rooms not impervious to the outside heat. The curing rooms of cheese factories throughout the country we found to he flimsy of construction, so that the cheese was cured in a temperature which made it practically impossible to make a first-class article. We, therefore, sought to induce the cheesemakers of the country to improve their curing rooms. We did this by a campaign of education in the farmers's institutes and the various association meetings throughout the country. We went even further, and advised the local governments, one of which, at least, that of Quebec, which had offered a bonus to cheese factories that made an improvement in their curing rooms. At the same time. Prof. Robertson worked out the best plans and specifications for these curing rooms, and distributed them gratis to every one who would undertake this work. While this education has been going on, practical work has been going on also, a large number of our cheese factories so improving their curing rooms that to-day they can cure cheese in as cool a temperature in the middle of summer as they can in the fall and spring. And we have proven, by careful experiments under the direction of the department, that cheese that is made in the hottest weather may be as good as that made in the cooler weather. As a matter of fact, the cheese does not shrink so much as when cured in heated chambers. The cost of the improvement is so little that the saving on the shrinkage of cheese is sufficient of itself to make up for the expenditure. I am speaking from memory, but I believe lam right in saying, that in one season enough was saved on the shrinkage on cheese to almost pay the cost of improving the curing room.


Mr. CLANCY.: Does the hon. gentleman mean the cost of the curing rooms ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, the cost of improving the curing room. One season's make, in the increased value, which was found to be i cent per pound, and the saving in shrinkage, pays for the improvement in the curing room.


James Clancy: Does the hon. gentleman mean for the manufacture of cheese or those to which the government are giving a bonus ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, the government are giving no bonus.


James Clancy: But, the government is giving a bonus for this purpose ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No ; the House is asked under this vote to give a sum toward providing creameries with cold storage accommodation. We are not giving a bonus to cheese factories for curing rooms. The Quebec government did give a bonus for such a purpose.


Mr. FISHER.: 


James Clancy: I thought this included cheese factories.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, it is for creameries. There are some factories where cheese is made as well as butter. We give a bonus wherever they put in cold storage plants, and where they make a certain quantity of butter, and fulfil the other conditions. But, I am speaking of the facts that have come out as a result of our work in connection with the subject on which the hon. gentleman has asked questions. The results show that the improvement in our summer-made cheese has increased the reputation of our whole cheese product. Another point of equal importance was ascertained. It was found that in many cases our cheese was damaged in crossing the ocean by being packed in the hot hold of the vessel. I may say that when cold storage was first established a good many people talked of sending cheese forward in cold storage chambers, but the cheese merchants did not, to any extent, avail themselves of that accommodation, and comparatively little of our cheese was sent in the insulated cold storage chamber. In the hot weather cheese, even in the ordinary hold of the vessel, heats a little from its own ripening; and, in the hoc battened-down holds, it is seriously hurt. In that connection we have investigated what could be done to ventilate the holds of the ships so as to carry cheese forward in more perfect condition. This was made all the more desirable because of the knowledge our cheese-makers have acquired in connection with their curing rooms, because of which summer cheese is likely to be made of equal quality with the June or September cheese. The vote now before the committee does not include anything for this purpose, but I am going to ask parliament in a little while to give me a vote to secure belter ventilation in the ordinary holds of the ships. But, under the vote given, we have obtained the information and carried on the investigations, which have shown us, and proved to the shippers and those engaged in the trade, the necessity of the changes, which I shall outline when that matter comes up.
In this connection, I may also say that in our investigations we have found what was generally stated, but which was not by any means proved, that our apples going forward in ordinary holds of vessels unventilated, have heated, and that in many instances the apples which were put upon the ships in the ports here in fairly good condition, arrived at the other side cooked and hurt to such an extent that they were practically valueless. The general statement of shippers was that all their apples were hurt in that way. This was found not to be the case, but it occurred in many instances. We also found many instances where the apples were heated before they

303a
were put into the vessels, were heated on the railroad journey, or by lying out in the hot sun on the wharfs, and were put into the ships in such a condition that it was practically impossible for them to arrive in the English ports in a good condition. These are facts which have come out as a result of the investigations we have carried on, and they are of the utmost importance to our producers and shippers in this country, and will tend to improve the facilities for putting our fruit products into the foreign markets in a good condition.
There was another equally important result from this investigation. It is a well known fact that a great many of our apples were bruised and hurt when the barrels were opened on the other side. Various explanations were given, but one evident cause was the rough handling of the fruit in transit, in putting it in to ships and taking it out. One of the chief duties of our officers, both in Montreal and in England, has been to watch the handling of our products in transferring them from the railways to the ships on this side, and from the ships to the warehouses on the other side. We found a very deplorable condition of affairs. As a rule our products were handled very roughly. Many of our barrels were hurt and the fruit consequently was damaged. Our cheese boxes were damaged to such an extent that in many cases a large percentage of them was scarcely able to contain the cheese, and in some instances the cheese was hurt. This has always been one of the complaints against Canadian cheese in the English market, that it was not properly and nicely boxed. The same complaint was made of our butter tubs, that they were not properly and strongly made and covered, My officers in the course of their investigations found that this evil was very glaring and demanded a remedy, In many instances it has been remedied freely by the ship-owners and by the stevedores when their attention was drawn to the fact. My officers made reasonable explanations to them, and as a general rule, the ship-owners have applied a remedy, without any attempted coercion and without need of subsidizing or paying them for it; and consequently, during this last season, there has been a marked improvement in the handling of all our fruit products. I may mention as an instance that formerly our cheese boxes used to be bundled up into a net and hoisted by a crane and swung over into the holds of the ships. Perhaps a dozen or fifteen boxes were put into the net promisciously and were let down into the hold, knocking against the sides of the hold and against the beams of the ship. To remedy this a simple contrivance was prepared by which, instead of the boxes being let down in a net, the boxes were carefully piled upon a ! platform five or six feet square, and were j
let down in that manner, with the result that during the last season they were transported in far better condition. This improvement was brought about by a simple suggestion of my officers and carried out by the stevedores without the slightest objection. Other improvements have also been suggested by my officers and adopted by the shippers. We have succeeded in inducing them to use a bag of hay or something of the kind laid at the bottom of the chutes down which the butter boxes are slid, with the result that, instead of the boxes striking the bottom with such force as to split or break them, they fall on something soft and are thus preserved intact. These improvements have been brought about at no expense at all to the trade, and very little to the company. I will not say anything now regarding the ventilation of the holds, because I hope in the supplementary estimates to ask for a further vote for that purpose. I expect to make an arrangement with the shippers by which an enormous improvement will be made in the carriage of our cheese and apples in the ordinary holds of vessels, outside of the cold storage chambers.


George Oscar Alcorn: I understood the hon. gentleman to say that certain agents were appointed for the purpose of inspecting the apples for shipment. I would like to know what was the result of the inspection. I would also ask the hon. minister if he intends to publish the information that he has gathered.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: With regard to the hon. gentleman's first question, I may say that while I had officers in the port of Montreal they did not undertake to make any inspection of the apples or other things that were going forward. Their business was to watch and see what could be done to improve the condition of shipment. As a matter of fact, they did examine a good many barrels of apples as they went forward, but they did not undertake to inspect them as an inspector would inspect fruit, except with the concurrence of the owner. But in many instances they were able in a friendly way to get the evidence which I have alluded to, by an examination of the fruit as it arrived in the trains, and when it was lying on the wharfs. With regard to the other question, I may say that a great deal of this information was already given to the Committee on Agriculture by Professor Robertson a few days ago, and that evidence will shortly be printed and distributed to members. I may say that as a good deal of this information has been somewhat of a confidential nature, that is to say, that our agents have informed us in regard to particular shipments and particular shippers, we have not consequently felt justified in publishing that information in regard to the

particular shipper. But we have no objection to giving the shipper himself information, and in some instances we have by that meaiis been able to bring about almost a revolution in the management and in the packing of the goods of an individual shipper. I would refer to one instance. There were several shippers of bacon who were shipping bacon in boxes that would not stand the racket, so to speak. The boxes arrived in England in a broken condition and the result was an unfavourable reputation for the bacon. We did not publish that except in general terms, but we gave the house interested detailed information, and the result has been a complete change in their methods of boxing and shipping their goods, a change which has been most favourable to their product and to their reputation. We have felt that in regard to any individual shippers it would not be fair to them to publish at large the details of their business. But we give them information, and we draw conclusions as to the general business from these individual details.


Mr. McGOWAN.: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture if he proposes to improve the facilities for shipping dressed meat. It seems to me that this is a trade that we ought to cultivate far more largely than we are doing at present. The United States are exporting large quantities of dressed meat to the British market. Prof. Robertson was kind enough to give me some figures in connection with this trade and they showed that last year the United States exported nearly $30,000.000 of dressed meat. It seems to me that this is a very important matter to this country. I think the efforts of the officers of my hon. friend have been largely turned in the direction of cheese, butter and fruit. The constituency which I have the honour to represent is very largely interested in the raising of cattle. It has been shipping cattle by way of the port of Montreal in large quantities and our people feel the strong competition of refrigerator meat from the United States. Under these circumstances I think the hon. minister should direct his attention more largely in the direction of encouraging this dressed meat trade. I have a great many figures here in connection with this matter which Prof. Robertson has been kind enough to give me, and these figures are certainly very startling. Ten years ago the United States exported but $15,000,000 worth of refrigerator meat, while that country last year exported about $30,000,000 worth. The people of my constituency feel very strongly on this matter. They feel that while it is all right to cultivate a trade in fruit, butter and cheese there has been a considerable neglect in the matter of encouraging the trade in dressed meat. The hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) is largely interested in this matter Mr. FISHER.
also. He represents a constituency which would take a larger interest in this matter than it does if there were some adequate facilities provided for getting dressed meat to the British market. I may say that there appears to be some difference of opinion between the officers of my hon. friend and the officials of the Ontario government. The Minister of Public Works of the province of Ontario was up in my constituency about a month ago, and he delivered a couple of addresses. He claimed that the transportation facilities provided by my hon. friend are altogether defective. I have a report of his address in two of the local newspapers which I can send to the hon. gentleman if he likes. These addresses were delivered in two different places in my constituency, and in them Mr. Latchford told us that the transportation facilities were entirely defective and that the cars were away behind the age. I will read what he says in connection with this matter. Speaking in regard to the question of transportation ;
He claimed that neither the railways nor steamers had cold storage apartments fitted up on principles that would preserve beef or fruit in a proper condition for marketing at the best price, and until these public carriers provided cold storage plants with clean, well-ventilated and evenly-distributed cool air of a temperature of 35 degrees Canadian products would labour under a disadvantage. Refrigerators were now being built in which the air was kept pure and odorous, and the invention was that of a Canadian, and when brought into general use, fruits and meats will arrive in England from Canada with the bloom on them and command the highest price.
In another address which he delivered in my constituency, he said :
In the matter of transportation, the speaker stated that the refrigerator cars now in vogue on the railroads, and the compartments allotted for cold storage on the ocean vessels are not properly constructed for the success of this part of the system, but that the same plan as he had outlined for the laboratory could be utilized for transportation, and if a demand was made for better accommodation it would be forthcoming.
There is another matter which I would like to call to the attention of the hon. minister. In the winter timei there is a considerable trade done between the people of my constituency, and In fact between the whole county to which I belong and the lower provinces. There is a good deal of dressed meat sent down to Halifax and St. .Tohn, but, whatever the reason is, just as soon as warm weather comes, the trade stops, as there are no adequate facilities for taking the meat down. The people there find that this is a very profitable trade, and it has been the means of finding a market for a very large number of cattle which have been converted into meat. I would be glad if the hon. gentleman would look into this matter of getting a better market not only in Great Britain for our fresh meat, but if he would also endeavour to see that we shall

have better facilities for sending our meat to Halifax and St. John.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: In reply to my hon. friend (Mr. McGowan), I may say that we have been paying particular attention to this matter of the export of dressed meat. There has not been any company or individual who has been prepared to export dressed meat. There have been a good many propositions in regard to it, but nothing that has assumed practical proportions until comparatively recently.


John McGowan: There is a large company being formed in Toronto at present.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I am aware of that and I believe that company is to be formed in such a way as to establish a very large aud successful trade. It is in the hands of men who are competent and who have the capital necessary to carry out the project in a proper way. They have come to us aud we have made arrangements by which in the steamers with cold storage accommodation there shall be special chambers set aside for the meat so that they may-get the accommodation they require. The gentleman who was starting the company was here the other day and went over the whole matter with myself and Prof. Robertson. We showed him that we were prepared to do all that is necessary to stimulate and encourage that project. I believe there is an opening just as soon as we are able to supply a steady and constant stream of dressed meat. The English market is peculiar in that it will not be affected and we will not make any successful impression upon it if we send things by fits and starts, or if we send a varying quantity. Those who undertake that trade can only do so thoroughly successfully if they are prepared to send forward a pretty regular supply all the year round, and I think the company to which my hon. friend has referred and which I bave in my mind, is prepared to do that. We are doing all that we can to provide the facilities necessary. My hon. friend has mentioned the subject in regard to cold storage transportation facilities. I am not going to pay any attention to it. I do not know what the exact details of the remarks were, but, I would be very glad indeed to have any criticism in regard to cold storage, and I think I will be able to show that the cold storage transportation facilities which have been supplied by the encouragement of my department have been effective and are thoroughly effective to-day. I cannot say any more in regard to the matter, but I am glad of the opportunity to tell my hon. friend that there seems to be every prospect of great progress being made in the dressed meat trade. By reason of our labours we have I might say created-from the information we have obtained there has been created-a trade in dressed poultry
which was non-existent a few years ago, and which to-day is progressing by leaps and bounds in a profitable and satisfactory manner to the agricultural interests of the country. There is nothing in the agricultural world, I might almost say, which is at present attracting more attention from the ordinary practical farmer than the raising and fattening and dressing and shipping of our poultry to the English market. Incidentally the quality of the poultry for our home market has been very much improved and poultry is now obtainable in Canadian cities of better quality than was thought of a few years ago.


Mr. WRIGHT.: I wish to say a few words with reference to our cold storage system. I was somewhat alarmed at the discussion this afternoon, because I feared that the excellent cold storage system we now have might in some way be impaired. I remember very well that some years ago when we exported dairy butter, it was often seriously damaged on the ocean voyage. In those days butter that was of excellent quality when it left here, arrived in Liverpool dilapidated in appearance and inferior in flavour. It made no difference to the railway or steamship people how they treated our butter so long as they got the freight. Those who were not familiar with the trade in those days would hardly believe that our butter was so roughly handled on its journey to the English market. To-day, under our cold storage system, matters have entirely changed in this respect. The cold storage car comes to the door of the creamery in my town every Tuesday morning ; our butter is shipped on it in perfect condition fresh from the creamery cold storage ; it goes in a cold storage car to cold storage in Montreal, and thence in cold storage on the steamer to Liverpool or London or Manchester. The result of this change is most beneficial to our dairying industry. The contrast between the condition of Canadian butter arriving on the English market in those days, and the condition in which it arrives at present is very marked indeed, and Canadian butter is now able to meet the competition of the best Danish butter sold in the old country. The consignees of our Canadian butter in England have written us in black and white congratulating us on this great improvement. It is not uncommon for us to see in the English market quotations that whilst other butter was reduced five shillings a hundred weight, the price of Canadian butter was not affected. This is due entirely to the exertions put forward by this government to have our butter placed in good condition on the English market. Let me draw the attention of the minister and of the commissioner to a matter which they might inquire into. I once went with a consignment of butter to England, and the man to whom I entrusted its sale said to me :	Mr. Wright, there is an

order here for a thousand packages of butter, and I want to give the buyer a fair sample, so you had better go down with your man to the wharf and pick out forty packages, for I know you will not be likely to select the poorest samples. I went to the wharf and I found two gentlemen there on top of my pile of butter. One of them was Shoring holes in the tubs of butter with a bitt, and another had a long iron affair which he was digging into the butter. I saw that this would damage the appearance of the butter, and the condition of the packages, and I said : Look here, young men, I own that butter, and I don't want you to be running that infernal thing through it to spoil it. One of them replied : Possess your soul in patience, young man ; they ship tobacco in these packages of butter, and it is tobacco we are looking for. I said : We don't grow tobacco in Canada, and if we did we would not ship it in that kind of way, so you had better leave my butter alone. I mention this to the minister as a reason why precautions should be taken to ensure that when our butter lands in England it should receive proper treatment.


Mr. BRODER.: How long ago is that ?


Aaron Abel Wright: That is about seven years ago. Now, Sir, as to a matter which came up this afternoon, I may say that I have no objection to the minister providing cold storage for fish, but I certainly do object to butter being placed in the same compartment of a car which has carried fish for any distance, because it will undoubtedly be detrimental to the flavour of our good Canadian creamery butter. In connection with this cold storage question, I would respectfully draw the attention of the minister to the test made last January in Owega of refrigerating by the liquid air system. This novel system was an unqualified success and it has several merits over all other modes. By an expenditure of $25 they were able to transform an ordinary refrigerator car by means of liquid air into a refrigerator, in which the temperature was reduced to 15 below zero. They had about 200 feet of two-inch galvanized pipe in the ceiling of the car, and in the corner a cylindrical reception four feet high by two feet across which was filled with liquid air, and the desired result was obtained. They can maintain it at 15 below zero for twenty-four hours, without renewing. This system occupied very little space in the car and it weighed only about 200 pounds, whereas a car filled with ice will weigh from three to four tons, which takes up a large amount of space on the top of the car and which to that extent lessens its capacity for carrying butter. Then, when the ice melts it leaves a sort of dampness in the a'ir and it wets the bottom of the car, which is a decided objection. This is obviated by the liquid air system, which never moulds or dampens the butter, Mr. WRIGHT.
but which carries it to its destination looking bright and clean. I would suggest to the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Fisher) that he should investigate this liquid air system of cold storage and adopt it if possible.


James Clancy: I expected that the Minister of Agriculture would have given some definite information as to how the trial shipments came out; but, before entering upon that, I would like to ask him what classes of Canadian products now go exclusively in mechanical cold storage ? So far as 1 could discern from what the hon. gentleman said, butter seemed to be the only article that was going to any considerable extent. It seems that apples do not go exclusively by cold storage. In a sense cold storage should be no longer considered to be on trial. It has been in operation for a number of years, and the hon. gentleman, with his usual modesty, has ventured the statement that it was the best system of cold storage in the world. I drew from that that it was so because of the excellent results which the hon. gentleman has attained from his experience since he has been in office. I am sure it would be interesting to the House and the country if the hon. gentleman were able to state approximately what proportion of Canadian products have gone in cold storage. I will also ask him to state the ordinary rates and the cold storage rates to London, to Liverpool, to Glasgow, to Manchester, and to the West Indies, in the twenty-four ships that were equipped last year, and, if he can. the quantities of Canadian perishable products which went by cold storage in each ship.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: In a general way, the products which have gone forward in cold storage have been butter, of which practically the whole export of Canada goes in that way, and poultry meat, of which practically the whole export of Canada to Great Britain, not to the United States, goes in cold storage.


James Clancy: What were the quantities ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not got the quantities. About 200 tons of poultry meat went last fall to Great Britain by cold storage. Tender fruits, such ns pears, peaches and grapes, went forward in mechanical cold storage chambers ; but these are about all. Cheese has not gone forward to any great extent in cold storage chambers. Some shipments of apples have gone in cold storage, but as a general rule the shippers of apples say, In the first place, that too large quantities go at one time to get the accommodation, and, in the second place, they do not think it worth while to pay the extra cost of the cold storage accommodation. Some experiments were tried, which showed that the tender, early variety of apples seemed to require cold storage accommodation, while the hardier winter apples did not.


James Clancy: What was the value of the small fruits and the value of the poultry sent forward in cold storage ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not got the figures of the exact quantities or values of either the fruit or the poultry.


James Clancy: I should think that the bulk of Canadian products that go in cold storage consist of butter. The shipments of other products are not large enough to be considered of great importance. I would like to ask the hon .gentleman how many new vessels were fitted up last year ? I understood that there were in the service last year five vessels to Liverpool, six to London, six to Glasgow, one to the West Indies, three to Manchester, and three of the Furness line to London. Perhaps the hon. gentleman can tell whether all these were in service, and how many came under the new contract of fifteen shillings a ton ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There were ten new vessels that came under contract last year-three of the Allan line from Montreal to Liverpool, two of the Allan line from Montreal to Glasgow, three of the Thompson line from Montreal to London, and two of the Donaldson line from Montreal to Glasgow. In addition, in consequence of the arrangements thus made, we continued contracts with seven others, the contracts with which had expired ; but, as they belonged to these same ship-owners, they were kept under contract on the same terms and conditions practically as those new ships, although we do not pay for them.


James Clancy: Was that the Furness line?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, the Furness line contract expired last autumn ; but the ships did not fulfil their contract last season, and we are now disputing the payment of the subsidy.


James Clancy: What guarantee has the government, after bearing one-half of the cost of fitting these vessels out with cold storage, that after the contract is completed they will continue ? Is it proposed to be purely experimental, so that after the expiration of the contracts the vessels will maintain the cold storage system without any special charge on the public purse ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: When the cold storage propositions were first made here, that point was clearly laid down. The contracts were made for a stated term on the supposition that the system was a new thing for the trade of Canada, and that it was uncertain what its earnings would be. I think, therefore, it is right that the public purse should bear a certain amount of expense in order to encourage ship-owners to undertake this new experiment. It was expected that by the
end of the contract, the business would be so well established that the ship-owners would he forced to continue on their own account, and, as a matter of fact, this has, to a large extent, taken place. It is true that a few ships were taken, in consequence of being provided with that very accommodation, to carry supplies to South Africa, but several of these ship-owning companies have added to their Canadian shipping fleet, vessels fitted up with cold storage, without any subsidy from this country.


James Clancy: How many ships will be in the service this year fitted out with cold storage ? I have seen it stated that some of those under contract intend discontinuing that service when their contracts have expired, on the ground that it does not pay. If there is any foundation for that report, it is a very serious matter.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: With the exception of two vessels of the Furness-Withy line from the maritime provinces, I am not aware of any ships fitted up with cold storage that are not going to continue it. I think I am safe in saying that there will be 37 ships fitted with cold storage accommodation sailing between Canadian and English ports this season, including those under contract.


James Clancy: One would naturally conclude from the remarks of the hon. gentleman that we had reached the time when public enterprise would no longer require government bonuses to assist in fitting vessels up with cold storage. If the experiment pays, the entire cost should be borne by private enterprise alone. I can understand the necessity of giving government assistance at the outset, but I would ask the hon. gen tleman whether we may soon look forward to the time when such assistance will no longer be needed.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: While this vote is called the cold storage vote, it includes considerable more than cold storage. This year we are still under contract with 37 steamers to pay them subsidies. My first contracts were made to cover a term of three years, and half the cost of installation which is provided was payable over that term at the rate of one-sixth per year. But in the latter contracts, I was obliged to make the payments in two years, because the companies would not agree to payments over three years and complained that they had been too hardly dealt witli in the first contract. The consequence is that last year and this we will have to pay one-quarter instead of one-sixth each year to each vessel. Besides, we are using a much smaller proportion of this vote for cold storage accommodation on steamships than when I first took the vote four years ago. We spent about $70,000 the first year oil steamships out of $100,000, while this

year we are only spending about $32,000. As a matter of fact, the expenditure upon this cold storage accommodation is decreasing although the service is largely increasing, and this is due to the fact that the service has become a necessity to the trade. Out of this vote we have to pay a large number of services, which we did not have to pay in the beginning. We are paying the salaries and expenses of our agents in England, whom we have increased.


Mr. WADE.: Is it the intention to make any provision for forced ventilation in steamships carrying fruit from the lower provinces ? I refer to subsidized steamers. The general opinion among the shippers is that forced ventilation is all that is necessary to carry apples across, which will keep the temperature down to 40 degrees. If that is not done, any subsidies granted would be really detrimental because they would prevent competition and thus prevent other steamship lines introducing ventilation.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I explained some time ago that I proposed to ask a considerable vote in the supplemen taries to deal with that question, and propose to grant the same provision to vessels in the maritime provinces as in the St. Lawrence. I propose to have not only forced ventilation with fans but even to go so far as to force cold air through the holds.


Mr. ROBINSON (West Elgin).: I see by the paper that the British troops in the future are to be fed with British beef. Does that not include Canadian beef ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have no information beyond what the bon. gentleman has himself, but I gather from the reports that, under that regulation, beet will be used onily from animals raised in the old country.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I hope the bon. minister will not think of discontinuing or curtailing the cold storage system, but that he will extend it year after year. There is scarcely one point in connection with this subject in which the colony of New Zealand is not, far in advance of us. In that colony, butter is graded by government officers, and cold stores are provided by the government at the different ports of shipment, in which stores the products of the country are allowed to remain #for about a month free of charge. In this respect and in about fifty other respects in connection with the export trade, we are far, far behind the colony of New Zealand, where they own their own railways and their own telephone and telegraph lines, where the greatest portion of the life insurance is done by the government, and where the government lends money at a low rate of interest to farmers who come and settle in the country.


Sydney Arthur Fisher: 


Robert Laird Borden: I think the matter which has been brought to the attention of the government by the bon. member from Centre Wellington (Mr. McGowan) is well deserving of a good deal of consideration. From the figures which have been supplied by Prof. Robertson, it seems that Canada does fairly well so far as the exportation of cattle is concerned. On the other hand, when you look at the exports of dressed beef from the United States to England, you see that they have steadily increased from 1891 to the present time. For example, in 1891 the value of dressed beef exported from the United States to Great Britain was $15,322,054. That trade increased year by year, so that in 1899 it amounted to $23,545,185. From that amount it increased in 1900 to $29,642,830, an increase of about $6,000,000. So far as Canada is concerned, it appears our exportation of dressed beef to Great Britain amounts to practically nothing. Now, there must be some reason why we do fairly well so far as the exportation of live cattle is concerned, while we do nothing in the exportation of dressed beef. I can attribute it to nothing but to lack of facilities as compared with the United States. Going back to what I mentioned to the committee before six o'clock, I think it is highly probable that a good deal of the facilities which we provide at Montreal are made use of by Chicago exporters. Does the hon. gentleman know whether that is the case ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Only when there is no Canadian produce going forward. Our contracts read that Canadian products must have the preference. And, as a matter of fact in the public cold storage chambers that we subsidize, there are practically no American goods.


Robert Laird Borden: The gentleman who gave me information on this matter gave that as a possible reason why he could not get space.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That is from Portland in the winter, when we have no control over it.


Robert Laird Borden: That may be the explanation. But is there not some reason why our exports of dressed beef amount to practically nothing while our exports of cattle are of substantial amount? And is there any hope in the future of increasing the exports of dressed beef ? Another matter that I have brought to his attention is the desirability of giving such assistance to the transportation of fresh fish from the province of Nova Scotia to Quebec and Ontario, as is given at the present time to other products. The hon. gentleman stated that that was a matter which he would take into consideration. Now, my hon. friend from Centre Wellington has brought to the hon. minister's at-

tention the fact that while there is a considerable amount of dressed beef sent from Ontario to Nova Scotia In the winter months, that trade practically ceases during the summer months. If the people in Ontario want our fresh fish-as I am sure they would if they knew about them and could get them-in the summer months, and if we want their beef for use in the maritime provinces during the same months, that affords the basis of a very profitable trade for both sides. With that in view, I press this matter upon the hon. gentleman that he might give it the consideration which it deserves.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think there is an explanation of the condition of affairs with regard to our small trade in dressed beef and our large trade in live cattle, in comparison with these respective trades in the United States. In the first place, the live cattle trade in the United States, like the live cattle trade in Canada, was first established. That, I think, has been the history of the trade everywhere-that at first the animals are sent alive. Within comparatively recent times the statement has been frequently made, and I think correctly, that the price of the offal of the animal was so much higher than the price of the similar offal in this country that it paid better to send the live animal and slaughter it there than to send the dead meat over. This was aided, perhaps, slightly by the fact that in the English market the meat slaughtered in England and dressed by the English butcher always commands a slightly higher price than any dressed meat imported into that country. The result was that until lately the men engaged in the cattle trade seemed to find it more profitable to send forward the live animal. The condition of affairs is changed. We have in this country to-day a larger demand for offal, and there have been created facilities for shipping certain parts of the offal to the old country in barrels, and frozen and so on, which there were not before. The result, I believe, is that to-day the difference in favour of slaughtering in England, because of the value of the offal, has practically disappeared, and the value of the offal in Canada will be nearly as great if not quite as great as the value of the offal in England. Now, the fact has been cited that the dead meat export trade of the United States has increased enormously, but not at the expense of the live cattle trade, but far more in comparison. This, I believe, is almost entirely due to the fact that in the United States, at first for the home market, but afterwards for export trade, there have been forl*ed enormous concerns with immense capital, such as the Armours and the Swifts, and these people have managed to handle the dead meat trade. I venture the assertion that this dead meat trade cannot be carried on at retail successfully-it must 90
be carried on by men of considerable capital, who can slaughter on a large scale and shi]) on a large scale, and who can use to the very best advantage all portions of the animal. Otherwise, this trade cannot successfully compete with the live cattle trade. In the United States large concerns have been doing this trade for many years. I believe that to-day an opening is being made in Canada for some large concerns to take up this trade and deal with it in the same way as some American concerns have done. But until some people were ready to do that, it was not possible by any government stimulus to encourage people to start that trade on a profitable basis. I may say further that the large firms of the United States like Armour and Swift, provide their own cold storage accommodation, and they have their own refrigerator cars. They have, on some of the fastest steamers that cross the Atlantic, chambers which in some cases they have fitted up at their own expense, and which they cool at their own expense ; or if they do not, they pay special rates to the steamship companies to provide cold storage chambers. No small company could do that, and no private individual could do that in this country ; and there did not appear to be until now any possibility of a sufficient supply of cattle or of dead meat going forward by which that thing could be accomplished. I venture to point out these things as the reason why this trade has made such enormous advances in the States, and I trust that the measures we are now taking will bring about a similar result in Canada.


Mr. MONK.: Would the minister let the committee see a form of the contract under which this cold storage at sea is provided ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not got one under my hand, but I will lay one on the Table or send it to the [DOT]hon. gentleman.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: What degree of temperature does the contract call for as cold storage ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That depends upon the products sent forward. If it is butter, we can force them to bring it down to 20 degrees ; if it is fruit, it must not go below freezing, 34 to 36. The department regulates the temperature at which the chambers must be kept. I may say we have now a system by which we put into the cold storage chamber when a vessel leaves a self-registering thermometer which keeps a register of the temperature during the whole time of the passage across the ocean, and it is taken out by our officers on the other side and kept by us to show whether the ships fulfil their bargain.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Then there is no doubt that under the terms of the contract it is possible for the department to exact from the steamship companies the zero temperature ?


Tlie MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think 20 is about the lowest we can force them.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Would that not explain to a certain extent this small increase in outtrade in dead meat ? Because if the department cannot exact a lower temperature than 20 degress, it is evident that cold storage cannot be of any use in forwarding dead meat.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: My hon. friend, I am afraid, is entering on a question that he does not know much about. Dead meat is carried in a temperature of 29 to 30 degrees, it is never brought down as low as 20.


James Clancy: I want to ask the minister what success he has with cold storage in cars. I judge from the results of 1S99 and 1900, that it has not been a great success. For instance, in 1899 some contracts were made by the government by which the government had to guarantee two-thirds of the value of the freight. By reason of that there was a loss of some $2,000 in 1899, and in 1900 the loss was over $0,000. Perhaps the hon. gentleman can give the relative quantities of goods carried in both years. He must know that, in order to know how much was paid to the railway companies by way of bonuses. Would he also state whether the Intercolonial Railway has been paid by reason of sustaining loss the same as other railways ? The other railways, I think, are the Grand Trunk Railway, the Canadian Facifie Railway, and the Quebec Central.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There are seven railways. We give a guarantee of two-thirds of the earnings of the car. We increase the number of routes every year as the demand for them increases. We probably increase the number of routes seven or eight every year. The old routes, the well-established routes, where there is a large trade and a large production, gradually reach the point where we do not have to pay anything. The new routes commence at considerable loss, and as time goes on the loss diminishes. By the extension of cold storage transportation facilities the demand for such increases, and more products are shipped according as the facilities are provided. During the last season, as some hon. members no doubt know, the butter production of Canada fell off, while cheese paid remarkably well, and the result was a smaller export of butter this last year than the year before. Now, butter is not a thing which fills cars to the greatest extent, and when the butter export fell off the cars were not so full, and there was a greater demand for the guarantee. That is the reason why this last year we have had to pay a little more for the guarantee than the year before. But, whereas the previous year we had seven or eight new routes, this last year there were twenty, I think, running refrigerator cars over the different parts of Mr. MONK.
the country. Every year we find people who want to ship poultry or fruit and make demands on these routes, and so far as we can do so with the means at our disposal, we meet these demands and agree to put on cars.


Mr. KENDALL.: The leader of the opposition has asked what provision has been made in connection with cold storage for the transportation of fish. As 1 happened to be engaged in this work for some little time, I may point out to him in the first place that on the shores of the maritime provinces it is necessary to have refrigerators for bait; secondly, these bait refrigerators may be used as temporary storehouses for fish! In the next place it is necessary to have cold storage in our steamboats and at the Atlantic terminals of the Intercodonial Railway, and, moreover, suitable refrigerator cars have to be provided. I may say that I examined a number of Canadian Pacific Railway cars, Grand Trunk Railway cars, and Intercolonial Railway cars, which provided that cold storage. I also examined some of those used by Armour and Swift, and I came to the conclusion two years ago, although I did not profess to be an expert in the matter, that most of the cars in Canada were scarcely suitable for the business required of them. The hon. loader of the opposition will be interested to know that trial cars are now being constructed at Moncton, and I think at one or two other points where cars are made for the Intercolonial Railway, with the idea of experimenting in the transportation of fish from the Atlantic to the west. A gentleman who is quite competent to deal with [DOT]this matter is now engaged in superintending the construction of these cars. I would also point out that a new class of freight service lias been put on between the maritime provinces and Montreal, which is giving the fishermen of the maritime provinces considerable advantages that they have not enjoyed hitherto. I would also like to point out to hon. gentlemen from the west who are interested in this matter, that we require capital down on the seaboard which is not available at present. Our fishermen are very slow to change their methods of handling their fish, and it is with difficulty that men have been induced to make the changes that have already been arrived at.
I may say also that I think representations have been made to the Railway Department urging that cold storage facilities be provided at the Atlantic terminals of the Intercolonial Railway to meet the requirements of this district, and that we have good reason to expect a favourable answer.


Robert Laird Borden: I made some remarks on this subject before six o'clock, when the hon. gentleman (Mr. Kendall) was not present. I brought to the attention of the hon. minister some portions of a report which has been made by a committee of the

House of Assembly of tlie province of Nova Scotia, which particularly took these matters into consideration, and what the hon. gentleman has said is in line with what that committee reported.	I think they have
spoken a little more strongly of the refrigerator ears which have been in use on the Intercolonial Railway than he does. They say that some of them were really very poorly adapted to the purpose, and the mention in their report, as the hon. gentleman has stated, that ears are now being- built which it is said will suit the purpose very much better. They also seem to think that the bait refrigerators which the hon. gentleman has referred to will possibly be of no great use unless steamers are provided along the coast for the purpose of collecting the fish and taking them to these bait refrigerators. I have here a copy of the report in which the refrigerator cars are characterized in this way :
The character of the refrigerator cars used on the Intercolonial was severally criticized by certain shippers who appeared before your committee, but Mr. Tiffin, the traffic manager, assured us that this deficit would shortly be remedied, as the department have now under construction a large number of refrigerator cars, which are being built after the most approved pattern, and which will be ready for use on the road in a few weeks.
I sincerely trust the recommendations of this committee, in so far as they deal with matters that appertain to this government, will receive the attention of the government, and I am sure that a very profitable traffic in fresh fish could be done by the fishermen of Nova Scotia with the province of Quebec and the eastern part of Ontario.


Mr. KATJLBACH.: Mr. Chairman, the fishermen of the maritime provinces on the Atlantic coast would derive very great advantage were greater facilities afforded at the railway terminals by a system of cold storage cars. At present they find it a very great risk in consequence of the railway facilities not offering sufficient accommodation for the supply of fresh fish for shipment. The trade in fresh fish has dwindled down to a mere nothing now in consequence of this want. I feel satisfied that a profitable trade in the shipment of fresh fish could be done by our fishermen if regular cars, provided with cold storage, were available, particularly during the summer season. Wo have a very large catch of fish on the coast in tthe summer season, and if the fishermen had proper facilities for the shipment of fresh fish, they would find this trade far more profitable than the trade in cured fish. In curing fish there lias to be taken into account the salt, the labour, the pressing, the drying, &c., Whereas the fishermen would realize nearly as much from the sale of fresh fish, the work in which only entails the labour of catching, were the accommodation I speak of afforded. I would, therefore, ask the hon. minister to kindly see that arrangements are 964
made in the early future whereby encouragement can be given to the fishermen who desire to have that industry conducted in the best possible manner, and who can only feel they have that accommodation by having a sufficient number of cars provided when and where they want them for the shipment of fresh fish.


Fletcher Bath Wade: I think the hon .gentleman from Lunenburg (Mr. Kauibach) did not go quite far enough in his remarks. I do not see how it is possible to take advantage of cold storage shipment by the people of his county and the counties of Shelburne and Queen's, unless we have a railway along the south shore. I hope, therefore, that hon. gentlemen opposite will be inclined to favour the granting of a subsidy although some of them have spoken against it.
Mr. IvENDALL. I would like to point out to the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Kauibach) that he was slightly inaccurate when he said that the fresh fish trade was dwindling.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: I did not catch that.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: Did I understand the hon. gentleman to say the fresh fish trade was dwindling to nothing ?


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: I said the shipments west were.


Arthur Samuel Kendall: I must tell the hon. gentleman that his statement is inaccurate. At Alulgrave three years ago, the receipts from the transportation of fish were $8,000, next year they were $12,000, and last year they were $17,000. With the establishment of a refrigerator there, or a storehouse where the fishermen could place their fish, that business would probably grow to such an extent that it would give the Intercolonial Railway from $50,000 to $75,000 a year from freights.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: I was referring more particularly to the port of Halifax, as it is a very doubtful port for the shipment of fresh fish for the want of this accommodation. In consequence our fishermen are disinclined to engage in that trade, and, therefore, they rely upon the trade in cured fish, whereas, if there were proper facilities they would be able to do a very profitable trade in fresh fish. Instead of sending our fresh fish westward, they are shipped to Boston and Portland, the duty is paid, and they are then transferred to" the west across the international boundary to Canada, the duty being paid a second time.


Fletcher Bath Wade: I would like to ask the hon. member for Lunenburg if he thinks it would be possible to ship fresh fish from his own county and the counties of Queen's and Shelburne unless we had a railway along the shore ?


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I think it would be satisfactory to the committee to have one of those contracts at present in force with the

steamship companies laid on the Table of the House. I do not suppose the hon. minister would have any objection to it. What degree of temperature is specified to be provided as regards the shipment of poultry meat ? I see that the minister is about as ignorant as I am ; he has to be prompted on that point.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. member (Mr. Monk) can quite understand that I do not carry every detail in my head.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Yes, I can quite realize that too.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. gentleman can be insulting and he can sneer if he chooses, but, he knows perfectly well that a minister is not expected to carry those details in his mind. The temperature required for poultry is about freezing, 30 to 32 degrees.


Robert Laird Borden: We have recently observed in the newspapers that the Imperial government propose to supply the troops with meat, grown within the empire


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I understood it was home-grown meat.


Robert Laird Borden: I have seen the expression ' home-grown beef ' used, and I have also seen the opinion expressed that this means, not grown within the four seas but grown within the British Empire. It is also stated that for two days in the week, instead of one day as at present, the troops are to be supplied with imported dressed meat. Has the Minister of Agriculture taken any means to ascertain exactly what the proposal is ? Will it give the colonies an opportunity of supplying this meat which was formerly suplied, at least to some extent, by the United States ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have taken no steps to find out particulars with regard to that, because, as a matter of fact, we have not supplied any fresh meat to the English army authorities. We have been supplying a large quantity of canned or pressed beef to them; all, in fact, that the Canadian producers can supply. We have obtained contracts of that kind from the War Office and have sent all that the Canadian producers were able to. In regard to this particular item, all the information I have is what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bordeu, Halifax) has seen in the newspapers.


Robert Laird Borden: Would it not be worth while for the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Fisher) to send a cable for the purpose of obtaining information, and letting the farmers of Canada know whether there is an opportunity for them to supply -meat which formerly came from the United States. It is extremely important that the farmers of this country should know that.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: 


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Can the minister, tell about what amount of canned beef we have supplied to the British War Office-I am afraid my hon. friend requires a great deal of priming.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: 1 am informed that we have sent forward about 800,000 pounds of meat of that description, and we have been asked to send a couple of hundred thousand pounds more, but the Canadian producers cannot fill the order.


James Clancy: The government undertook to pay 5 per cent on a portion of the cost of certain warehouses, and last year we were told that there was only one of these, and that situated in Quebec. Can the minister tell us if there have been any erected in the meantime and what has been the success of the warehouse in Quebec ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: In addition to the one at Quebec we have been giving a grant to a warehouse at Charlottetown for two years. I have had various communications from St. John and Halifax in regard to this subject, but the people do not seem to be, able to raise the money to do their share of the work. The proposal of the government was that we should give a certain interest on a certain investment, and in the case of Quebec and Charlottetown that arrangement was carried out. There is a company in St. John, and another in Halifax now corresponding with us, and I feel that we will perhaps modify the terms as much as would be consistent with the public interests for the purpose of bringing this object about, but the original terms have not been accepted. The company in Quebec have put improvements in the wrarehouse but they have not been successful in getting the cold storage accommodation utilized by the public. The time has expired for which we gave them help. At Charlottetown it was entirely a private enterprise of one individual and we secured for the public one chamber in the cold storage building which he put up for his own business purposes. The contract with regard to the Charlottetown warehouse will expire this season. I did not pay any more than had been originally proposed for that purpose.


James Clancy: It would seem that there has been more paid. The minister stated in this House formerly that the plan of the government was to pay 5 per cent on one-half or two-thirds of the cost of the building in Quebec, and he thought the building would cost $40,000. I see the hon. member for Quebec (Hon. Mr. Dobell) smiling, and lie no doubt is behind the scenes and can give an explanation. Now, if 5 per cent was paid on the whole cost of $38,000 (and not on one-half or two-thirds of it) it would be something less than $2,000. From page D-57 Auditor General's Report. I find to

commence with .$5,785.38 was paid, the cost of the building being $38,525. There was paid net loss $5,542, and on account of accident to goods, $1,682.89, or in all $5,785.38.
I would like the hon. gentleman to explain this in view of his former statement to the House.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The arrangement was in the nature of a guarantee of so much on the investment, and the Department of Justice read that in such a way as required us to pay sufficient to give them 5 per cent on their investment.


James Clancy: That was only $38,000.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There was a loss in the working of the scheme which made up the difference, and I was informed by the Department of Justice that we were liable under the wording of the agreement for that, and the payments were made in consequence.


James Clancy: That is certainly a very bold confession. The hon. gentleman came to the House last year on a similar vote, and declared in the most explicit terms that the sum to be paid was one-half or two-thirds, and that the government would be the judge of what it was to be paid upon. Then the hon. gentleman enters into a contract with a private concern ; and it now turns out that the public purse must stand the interest of 5 per cent on the whole investment, and the deficits on the business of the company. Surely the hon. gentleman did not enter into a bargain of that kind ; and instead of paying about $1,600, he has paid $6,000. It is the most shocking . statement that ever came from a department; that the Minister of Justice has construed a contract made by whom ? By the hon. gentleman himself, the government must pay this large sum. Surely this country will, in future, look for contracts to be submitted to the Minister of Justice before they are entered into, if we are to have a recurrence of transactions of this kind ? I think it is not creditable to the hon. gentleman to be forced to make such explanations to this committee.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: Was there a written opinion delivered by the Department of Justice on that point ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I cannot tell the hon. gentleman off-hand whether there was or not. I consulted the Department of Justice, and they informed me that that was their opinion.


Frederick Debartzch Monk: I suppose we could have communication of that opinion if it was in writing ? Will the hon. gentleman lay it on the table ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: If it is in writing, I will.


James Clancy: There is another item here with regard to a firm at Charlottetown. Did the hon. gentleman guarantee the deficit of the concern there as well ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We guaranteed certain earnings on the cold storage warehouse less the revenue, that is to say, the balance ; and this is the payment of that.


James Clancy: That was a private enterprise too ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes.


James Clancy: I am afraid the hon. gentleman has adopted these as a sort of stepchildren, and is now taking care of them. In the case of the concern at Charlottetown, there is a guarantee of one-half the deficit of the rental of $1,650 and the earnings of $403.26. What is the amount of the rental?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. gentleman does not read the item as I do: ' Guarantee of one-half deficit between rental of $1,650 and earnings of $403.26.' The rental was carried on by Mr. Rattenbury and space supplied for the public, and the earnings were the smaller amount, and he made up half the difference.


James Clancy: What sum was to be paid by way of rental ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That depended upon the amount of space.


James Clancy: What space was the hon. gentleman to have ? How much did he pay per cubic foot or cubic yard ?
The MINISTER OF AG ItICULTURE.
I am informed that there were two chambers there, and if the two were required all the time, we were to pay $1,600. The rentals depended on the amount of space utilized ; that is to say. the space in the warehouse which was built by Mr. Rattenbury for a pork-packing establishment, in which he had cold storage chambers and plant erected. He set aside certain ehamb- -ers, which we helped him to pay for, for the use of the public. There were two chambers which were available, and the rental was to be according to the use of the chambers.


James Clancy: Was there a written contract ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There was a written contract between Mr. Rattenbury and the department.


James Clancy: Will the hon. gentleman lay that on the table ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I can.


James Clancy: There was written contract also with regard to the cold storage warehouse at Quebec ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes.


James Clancy: The hon. gentleman will give us that as well. Another thing I wanted to ask about was the bonuses paid to the owners of creameries providing cold storage. If my memory serves me, they were to be paid in three instalments, commencing with $50 the first year, and $25 a year for the next two years. It would appear that a very large number of these have cheese factories as well. Will the hon. gentleman be able to state to the committee how many of these are creameries exclusively engaged in the manufacture of butter, and how many are used as creameries aud cheese factories alternately ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I can get the exact number in which cheese is made as well as butter. The object of our bonus was to secure the making of a certain amount of butter, and those that made a sufficient quantity during the season were entitled to the bonus. As a matter of fact, last year, in consequence of the high price of cheese and the reduced price of butter, there were a good many of these creameries which did not run their cold storage during the summer, and we refused to pay the bonus where they did not make enough butter to fulfil the requirements.


James Clancy: How much butter are they required to make ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Two thousand pounds per month.


James Clancy: Are they furnished with specifications ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: They are supplied with specifications and have to build according to them, and the bonus is only paid on the certificate of the inspector authorized by the department.


James Clancy: What is the cost of these buildings as a rule ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: These cold storage chambers are supplied in the building and cost from $100 to $200 in each case, and in a few instances a little over $200.


James Clancy: It seems to me that the minister is doing work that properly belongs to private enterprise. Here is a man by the name of D. M. Macpherson, who operates ten creameries in the province of Ontario and seven in the province of Quebec, and he is given $100 each creamery for fitting them up with cold storage facilities. That, it seems to me, is giving that class of men an unfair advantage over others. There 5s no reason why the policy of the hon. minister should not be followed out when Mr. FISHER.
it is restricted to merely educative purposes, but men like Mr. Macpherson do not require to be educated. Is it the policy of the hon. gentleman to continue that system in the future ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Most emphatically, yes. I consider that cold storage accommodation in the creameries is necessary to give our butter the reputation it ought to have on the English market.


James Clancy: Why should not the manufacturers supply these cold storage chambers themselves ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: They have been doing it and sharing the cost, and what the government is doing is a legitimate encouragement to the industry just as much as is the accommodation on the railways and steamers. I do not think it matters in the slightest degree whether the seventeen creameries are owned by one man or by seventeen different individuals. And as a matter of fact, if one man undertakes to run a large number of creameries he is more likely to improve the trade than if each creamery was run by a separate individual, and each one doing the thing in a different way. The result of the policy of the government is demonstrated by the fact that whereas in 1895 our butter export to Great Britain amounted to a little over half a million dollars, last year it amounted to $5,000,000.


James Clancy: How much came from Quebec and how much from Ontario ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: About three-fifths from Quebec aud two-fifths from Ontario.


James Clancy: I do not agree with the hon. gentleman that men like Mr. Macpherson, who do not require to be educated how to do their work, should have the benefit of these bonuses, because they are well able to look after themselves and in their own interest will take every means possible to increase their trade. The hon. gentleman might as well go around the country and bonus every farmer who produces a high grade of cattle. I am glad that the country now is able to understand that the hon. gentleman's policy is to take care of men who are eminently well able to take care of themselves. These people are fully aware that the price received for their produce depends upon the quality. And the hon. gentleman thinks it the business of the treasury to improve the quality of Mr. Mac-pherson's goods and so advance their price.
I do not think that this committee shares the hon. gentleman's views.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I am ready to be judged by the public on the words I utter, but not on the hon. gentleman's interpretation of them. When the system was introduced, there were not, I be-

lieve, refrigerator chambers in two creameries in this country, but to-day there are over four hundred, and the result is that the butter of Canada is where it is to-day on the English market.


Mr. SCHELL.: The hon. member for Both-well (Mr. Clancy) apparently understands but little of the cheese and butter trade. He is making the statement that this was put up for the purpose of assisting Mr. Macplier-son


James Clancy: No.


Jacob Thomas Schell: Well, that it was for the benefit of Mr. Macpherson. I wish to say that it was not for the benefit of Mr. Macpherson to the extent of a single cent. And, if the hon. gentleman understood the trade, he would know that this was not to the benefit of the butter factorymen, but to the benefit of the patrons who bring the milk to the factory. Especially is this true of eastern Canada. As the minister has said, in 1895, less than ?500,000 worth of butter was sent out of the country. If the hon. member for Bothwell knew as much of the blitter trade as he professes to know, and were as much interested in the welfare of the farmer as he seems to be in Mr. Macpherson's business, he would know that the reason why our butter was shipped to the old country in such poor condition was the want of cold storage. By the time the butter reached the storage chamber in the vessel, it would be off flavour, and really unfit for export. In paying this money for the cold storage chambers, all the benefit goes to the farmers, because the factory man receives only his three cents per pound for manufacturing and no more. The effect of the improvement was to add to the value and the price of the product, but not a single cent to the amount paid to the factory men. The hon. gentleman has devoted muck time to Air. Alacpherson, but Mr. Macpher-son is by no means the only proprietor of butter factories where this improvement has been made, in fact, there is not a butter factory I know of in the eastern section of the province but has come to the government and got a bonus to assist in the expense of a cold storage chamber when built within the time limit of the Act. The effect has been that, instead of receiving 15 cents or 10 cents per pound for the butter, the farmers received from 19 cents to 22 cents per pound, and every cent of this increased price goes to the farmers.


James Clancy: The hon. gentleman (Air. Schell) has given his explanation. But, I will venture to say that he has spoken without information, even though he lives in the district. Is the hon. gentleman prepared to say that there is not a factory in which Air. Alacpherson is concerned, in which Air. Alacpherson buys from the patrons ?


Jacob Thomas Schell: Not one. He does not buy one pound of milk in any factory that he owns.


James Clancy: How does the hon. gentleman (Air. Schell) know that ?


Jacob Thomas Schell: Because I am his partner.
Some other A1EA1BERS. Oh, oh.


Jacob Thomas Schell: Excuse me-I am not his partner in the butter factories, but in other business.


James Clancy: Since the hon. gentleman has told us he is a partner, we shall be much less inclined to discuss this matter further. We will have to accept the hon. gentleman's statement-but we must take it with his denial. He said, in the first place, that Air. Alacpherson did not buy a pound of milk, and next that he knew this to be the case. When asked how he knew this to be the case, he said : I am a partner, but not a partner in the butter factory-the only partnership that could give him knowledge in this matter. If he is not a partner in the butter factories, he has put on all the courage which new members in this House sometimes display, in making the statement which he has made. In the west it is quite a usual thing to buy milk from the farmers, and I feel confident that the custom cannot be so very much different in the east. Is the hon. gentleman ready to say that this is not the case in any of Air. Alacpherson's factories, either in eastern Ontario or in Quebec ? However, I am willing to accept the hon. gentleman's statement since he has told us he is a partner of Air. Alacpherson- and I am sure that if the minister will double the amount of the vote he will not liav.e any objection.


Jacob Thomas Schell: I make the statement that there is not one factory that I know of in the county of Glengarry, the county of Prescott or the county of Huntingdon in which milk is bought from the farmers- and I have been dealing with them for twenty years. It is not the custom in the eastern part of Ontario to buy the milk, either for cheese or butter, but to make at so much per pound. I might go further and tell the hon. gentleman that I have been connected with the cheese trade for thirty years in the county of Oxford, and, until of late years, at any rate, very few of the factories bought milk from the patrons in that county. The reason given for this bonus was to induce the people to put in cold storage chambers. Alost of them felt it was too much of an expense for the factory to put it in, as it would cost a couple of hundred dollars. As a matter of fact, these cold storage chambers were not put in until this measure was brought in and this assistance given.


James Clancy: Can the bon. gentleman tell whether Mr. Macpherson or the farmers own the factories ?


Jacob Thomas Schell: Mr. Macpherson owns them.


James Clancy: That explains it.


Jacob Thomas Schell: There are dozens of these factories that do not belong to Mr. Macpherson, though he happens to own a great many of them. Take Mr. Macleod, for instance ; or the Lome factories-I could mention them by the dozens, and every one of them coming under this bonus, if they applied for it under the Act. I only desired to point out that the hon. gentleman wanted to take a fling at Mr. Macpherson, instead of giving credit to the government for trying to assist the farmers.
To promote dairying interests by advances lor milk and cream, and for making butter and cheese, to be recouped out of the proceeds of sales of such butter and cheese, to be placed to the credit of the consolidated revenue fund, $60,000.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I suppose the committee understands that this item is for advances which were made to the farmers on their creamery accounts until the butter is actually sold, and the advances are then recouped out of the proceeds of the sales. The creameries in tne North-west have been managed by the department now for four years. I think I may say the industry in the North-west is now on a pretty thoroughly established basis so far as the successful manufacture of butter is concerned. Unfortunately a good many of these creameries required a considerable investment in which the government took a share at the time they were started, and they have not altogether paid off this investment, although some of them have made substantial progress in that direction. I have here a full statement of the accounts of each creamery, but I do not suppose the committee requires all the details. I may say that altogether there were about $48,900 paid out by the government in the shape of loans to these twenty creameries, although some fifteen or sixteen of these creameries have skimming stations attached to them. There was nothing advanced in 1900. The money has been advanced to the patrons to pay them for their milk supplied to the creameries, and is to be recouped when the butter is sold.


James Clancy: But the management was not to extend until doomsday, it was to end in three years. Is the hon. gentleman stiii carrying them on ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes.


James Clancy: All of them ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I think so.


Jacob Thomas Schell: 


James Clancy: That is not keeping good faith with the country.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. gentleman is quite right. When we took up this work it was hoped these creameries would be put on a firm basis and be able to carry on the work themselves in three years, but the department as a matter of fact has been obliged to go further.
I grant the hon. gentleman that the expectation was that they would have repaid this money more rapidly than they did. Some of them have done all that was expected of them ; in other eases the creameries have not had as much patronage as was hoped and they are still in debt. In some places the people have begged the department to carry on the management of the work a little longer, and in the interest of the development of the country, and in order to ensure the success of these creameries, the department has thought wise to carry it on still further. I may point out that out of the $46,000 advanced, some $23,000 has been repaid up to the present time. Some of them have practically paid the whole. I may mention a few. The creamery at Calgary received $3,300 and it is owing only $105. Another at Cardston owes $27 ; another at Grenville, which received $2,450, now owes $273. One at Churchbridge was advanced $2,200 and still owes $1,000. The amount of butter made this last year was
637,000	pounds.


James Clancy: When the hon. gentleman asked for a vote to help these creameries there was no exception taken; but it was pointed out just what would happen, namely, the position in which the hon. gentleman finds himself now. At the same rate it will take ten years more to get these advances recouped. He gave a statement to the House last year. Calgary was in the same position that it is now. Churchbridge. which received an advance of $2,233, has only paid $G13. At this stage it may be well to have some explanation regarding a note for $600 that was given and discounted by the department. I see in the Auditor General's Report, D-75, this is what the Auditor General says in regard to it :
Audit Office, Ottawa, May 11, 1900.
Sir,-Referring to your letter of January 29, relative to a payment of $600 to the Churchbridge Creamery Association as a loan on the security of a note of the directors payable sixteen months after June 2jl, 1898, which note was discounted by your department at the end of the fiscal year, and the proceeds ($592.10) deposited as a refund to the vote from which the payment was made, with the statement in your letter of the date referred to, that the Churchbridge Creamery Association had been asked to refund the amount of the discount, $7.90, I notice that the note in question was taken up by your department by a payment out of this year's vote, cheque No. 19,496, for $600. Please explain why the makers . of the note did not meet their obligation, and

what steps have been taken by you to obtain a repayment of this money.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Well, the hon. gentleman, I think, has a pretty full explanation there. As a matter of fact these people were struggling, they were in difficulties and had not the money. We gave them an advance for which the directors of the creamery gave us their Individual and joint note. They have not paid it yet, but they have promised that it will be paid this year. They have been making a lot of butter, and they are progressing. Although they have not been able to pay this note, they have paid $1,250 of the advance made to them, which originally was $2,280, and this $600 besides. Now, they owe $1,013 and the $600.


James Clancy: The hon. gentleman last year failed to inform us that he had to pay this $600 out of the vote which he had no authority to do. The hon. gentleman took no vote for that purpose, and he, therefore. had no right to pay the money. However, I am not going to detain the committee upon that point. We will take other cases. The sum advanced for the factory at Innisfail was $6,000, and only $2,000 has been paid; Maple Creek, advanced $1,600, paid $400; Moosejaw, advanced $1,700, paid $1,600; Moosomin, advanced $2,000, paid $700; Prince Albert, advanced $3,100; paid $187; Qu'Appelle, advanced $2,100, paid $700; Red Deer, advanced $700, paid $51 ; Regina, advanced $1,174. paid $1,001 : Saltcoats, advanced $600, paid $150; Emerson, which seems to have had some outlying stations in connection with it, advanced $5,600, paid $600. I shall not continue the list, but I am going to ask the hon. gentleman if there are not some of these factories that he does not expect to pay at all?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The list which the hon. gtntleman has read is no doubt the statement that was given here last year, and it would represent the state of matters at that time. The statement I have now, is the statement of the accounts up to the present time.


James Clancy: Have they altered a great deal ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: They have paid off $3,500 since last year.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: And there is how much due ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The amount due is $22,000 ; last year it was nearly $26,000.


Mr. GILMOUR.: Are all the factories to which advances were made in operation ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There is one which is not. One has been
discontinued because the people in that district have gone into wheat so largely that there are not cows enough to keep it up.


James Clancy: What factory is that ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: At Wolseley.


James Clancy: They received $3,000, and have only paid $600 back. Does the hon. gentleman intend to run these factories until he gets all the money out of them ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I trust we will be able to get the money out of them without any difficulty.
Census, $250,000.


Mr. BENNETT.: Before that item passes, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture if he can lay on the Table of the House a copy of the instructions that are given to the census enumerators together with the form of oath to be taken by them.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: If the hon. gentleman wishes I can lay a copy of them on the Table at once. I have just sent for them.


William Humphrey Bennett: There has lately appeared in the public prints, not only in the province of Quebec, but of the province of Ontario a very remarkable circular which has been entrusted to these different enumerators. I may at the outset read it. It has an endorsement which reads as follows, and this circular bears all the imprint of being an official document. The endorsement is as follows :-
Dominion of Canada.
Province of Ontario.
Month of	 1901.
Male Residents,
16 years of age or over.
Polling sub. div. No	
Municipality of	
Electoral district of	
Per	
P	
To	
P	
Two copies to be prepared by the gentleman so chosen for each subdivision and sent to the Liberal candidate in the last provincial election, or candidate now nominated for the next provincial election.
That is the endorsation on the back. The circular form has the following head line:
Name of resident, surname, Christian name (be i careful to give name of each lot of each male person who is 18 years of age or over).
Then in the schedule are the following head lines :

Politics.
Date of Birth.
Month, Day, Year.
No. of Lot or House, Concession or Street.
Post Office Address.
Nationality.
Religious Denomination and Church.
Remarks.
May X ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture if these forms were supplied by his department to the census enumerators to be in turn handed to the sub-enumerators, or if he has any knowledge by whom they were issued ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Bennett) has referred to a circular which is one I saw published in the Mail and Empire either on Saturday or this morning-I forget in which paper it was. I may say that the document did not emanate in any shape or way from the Department of Agriculture over which I have the honour to preside, and until I saw it in the newspaper I knew nothing about it. I never heard anything about it or knew anything in connection with it.


William Humphrey Bennett: I would like to ask the hon. minister, since its appearance, has he notified the enumerators that they must disregard this or any such document ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: As I only saw the thing this afternoon, I have not had an opportunity of doing so, but certainly I shall issue instructions to the enumerators employed on the work to ignore any such schedule or circular in connection with their work.


William Humphrey Bennett: It is rather odd that the hon. minister has only seen this matter to-jday or had his attention called to it. I notice that for several days past it has been coming in for condemnation at the hands of the public press, not only the Conservative press, but also the press of the Liberal side, the Montreal Witness, a newspaper which gives adherence to hon. gentlemen opposite, has been singularly strong in its condemnation of it. A glance- at the document shows that it was issued in an official style from its very make up. The manner in which it was arranged goes to show that there is no doubt as to the reason why, in Ontario particularly, it has been entrusted to the enumerators. On the very face of it, it is plain why these circulars have been issued. In the first place, these enumerators, going about as they are through the country, obtaining the evidence that they are obtaining from parties, are in the best possible position to know who are between the ages of 16 and 21, and they will have the basis ; the net-work for the form of the list in the province of Ontario for the next local election. The endorsement on the back of the document states that these circulars are to be handed to the enumera-Mr. BENNETT.
tors, because it says to the two gentlemen in the subdivision, meaning thereby the enumerators who are to be appointed. It is clear, as I before said, that the whole game was to have these enumerators return to the provincial candidates, or the present member, or the defeated candidate for the Ross government, in Ontario, this information. The result is that they would be fortified by this information, which is almost indispensable to a political party, and they would have it done at the expense of the public treasury of Canada. That is a fraud on the treasury. It is a week ago since Mr. Whitney brought this matter to the attention of the Ontario legislature, and a few days ago the Montreal Witness said :
Mr. Ross was surely very unhappy in his treatment of this matter. Surely it is of some importance to a government that not its party, we hope, but some injudicious member of it, should be guilty of trying to persuade or tempt the census enumerators to perjure themselves, and surely if some of the enumerators who were strong party men were tempted to do so the result would he deplorable. Moreover, such a project on the part of one of the great parties or any considerable section of them, to make use of census information for party purposes, would be just the thing to confirm the dislike and distrust citizens have of giving information to census enumerators, which are already strong enough. It may have been intended by those who issued the circular that the census enumerators should obtain the information asked for separately from the census enumeration, but is it probable that they would inform the citizens that the particulars asked for were not for the census, but for the use of a political party, and thus confess the impertinence of the questions and their own impudence in asking them? If a government treats such affairs as this one as matters of no consequence, it is certainly losing its moral perception and will soon forfeit the confidence of right-thinking people.
It is strange that the minister has not heard of it before this late date. No one will believe that this document in its official form was got up by any single individual on his own responsibility, because it bears on the face of it the evidence that It was fathered by the Liberal political organization. It is the duty of the government to investigate to the bottom as to who has been guilty of [DOT]this fraud on the public treasury. The minister has seen, no doubt, the statement made by Mr. Ross in the provincial legislature, and noticed the flippant manner in which he treated this very grave matter. If the minister (Hon. Mr. Fisher) will refer to the statute, he will find that the enumerators *-.are sworn to do a certain duty, and yet in face of the fact that they are sworn to keep secret the information they get, some of the enumerators, as we have proof, are deliberately violating their oaths. The country will demand that the minister shall investigate this matter at once. The country will demand that this government shall not laugh the matter out of court, as Mr. Ross has attempted. It would be unfair

to charge the government or any member of the government with this fraud, until it is brought home to them, but I believe that if the matter is thoroughly investigated it will be found that the provincial organization of the Liberal party is at the bottom of this wrong-doing. The government have the Dominion police force under its control, and they have ample means of finding out who supplied the enumerators with this document. The country will demand that the Minister of Agriculture shall have his chief enumerators placed on the stand under oath to declare who supplied these documents. A thorough investigation of that kind is the only means by which the government can clear itself. If they fail in this, the ministers will bring down on themselves the utter contempt of the people for such conduct. Even their own party organs to-day have condemned the tiling. The law declares that these enumerators must not exact any further information than is on the schedule. It clearly says in section 11 : * And no other such information.' Is there anything to be found in the schedule about asking a man what his politics are ? Not at all. Whoever was at the bottom of this fraud had not only in mind the obtaining of an advantage for the local government, but they are asked to make inquiries of men between the ages of sixteen and twenty-one, so it is plainly intended that when the next Federal elections come on, the Liberal party in the Dominion should have a knowledge of the politics of the men who shall then be twenty-one, so as to help them in the preparation of their lists. In the famous circular issued by Mr. Cote, chief commissioner for the province of Quebec, he states that all this information is obtained under oath, and as I have not yet seen the form of tlie oath, I shall reserve my remarks on that point until later. I do trust that the Minister of Agriculture will rise in liis place to-night and announce that he will institute a thorough investigation in order to please his friend, the Montreal Witness, and in order to give Liberals as well as Conservatives throughout the country an assurance that the perpetrators of this gross fraud shall be discovered and punished. This government is fond of commissions. Let it produce its enumerators before a competent commission, and let it discover who is guilty of this infamous act. Surely, there must be some law in this country to punish the men who are caught red-handed perpetrating this fraud.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have stated already, and the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bennett) no doubt accepts my statement, as I am sure the committee will, that I knew nothing whatever about this matter until it was drawn to my attention to-day in a copy of the Mail and Empire. I did not look to see what was the date of the copy, but I think it was the issue of last Saturday. I knew nothing whatever, and
I have not heard anything except what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bennett) has said, in regard to the debate in the Toronto legislature. I have not followed the proceedings there. I did not know the question was up there, and I did not see either Mr. Whitney's or Mr. Ross' statement in regard to it. 'To-day for the first time the matter was brought to my attention. I have stated, and I state again, that if anything has been done beyond the law and the requirements of the duties of the enumerators, they will be brought to task, and it will be seen by me as head of the department under which they are working, that they do their work legally, lawfully, and properly, according to the strict letter of the law which lays down their duties. If any of them do anything which is wrong and improper, they will be brought to book and prevented doing it in the future. As regards investigation,
I will find out the facts of this matter, and will be guided by the facts I discover in my departmental search and inquiry.


Robert Laird Borden: I have made some inquiries in regard to this matter, and I am informed by a member of the Ontario legislature that it was practically admitted in the debate there, that these forms had been supplied to the census enumerators.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: By whom ?
Mr.- BORDEN (Halifax). I do not know.
I am not charging the hon. gentleman. It does not make any difference by whom. It has been done by some person, and if this * circular which has been sent out by the hon. gentleman's department and for which he assumes responsibility, the circular signed by Mr. Cot6, if that is correct, then whoever put this into the hands of the census enumerators was asking the census enumerators to commit perjury. The circular sent out by Mr. Cote declares that the enumerators are sworn to secrecy. Any census enumerator who undertook to supply the information asked for in this political memorandum which the member for Simcoe has brought to the attention of the House should instantly be dismissed from the position. Any census enumerator who undertook to act upon it without reporting to the hon. gentleman's department with respect to it, is unworthy to hold his position. Not only has the enumerator been asked to commit perjury, but he has been asked to defraud the government, for this reason, that every one of these men is paid by the day, and he is expected to have these circulars filled out during the time for which he is paid by the government. The result is that whoever has put these circulars into the hands of the census enumerators for the purpose of having them filled out, and then sent to Liberal members or to unsuccessful Liberal candidates at the last election, is asking that those enumerators shall commit perjury and also commit fraud on this

government. Therefore, X am surprised that the hou. gentleman should hesitate about an investigation. I think this is one of the most disgraceful attempts ever heard of in this country. If anything is worthy of an Investigation, it is a transaction of this kind, in which, so far as the facts are before us, certain gentlemen belonging to a political party, have not only sought to violate the law which these census enumerators are sworn to preserve, but have also sought to have performed by them at the expense of the country, certain work which should be done by any political organization at its own expense. I therefore sincerely trust that the hon. gentleman will see fit to make the investigation necessary to get at the real facts of this matter, and will see that any person who has attempted to commit an act of that kind shall be brought to justice and punished so far as the laws of this country are able to punish him.


William Humphrey Bennett: May I ask the hon. minister where the form of oath js to be found in the instructions ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not think the form of oath is in the instructions.


Andrew B. Ingram: I would like to ask the hon. minister if the issue of CotS's circular received the endorsement of the department ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I would like first to reply to the leader of the opposition. The hon. gentleman must have misinterpreted what I said, if he thought that I was desirous in any wTay of shielding anybody or preventing an investigation. The facts were only to-day brought to my notice in the form of a newspaper article. I purpose to find out exactly what the facts are, so far as I can, and to be guided by what I find as to the future action. I am not prepared to say what chat action will be until I have investigated the facts ; nor am I prepared to take a newspaper article as a necessarily accurate statement of the facts. When my own departmental investigation shows me what the facts are, I shall be able to state exactly to the House what 1 will do in connection therewith. I do not think the committee would expect me to do more than that. I am quite prepared to say that anybody connected with the census who has contravened the law or gone beyond his instructions shall be dealt with in the way in which any man who does wrong should be dealt with. Replying to the hon. member for East Elgin (Mr. Ingram) with regard to the Cot6 circular, as he calls it, I may say that the letter signed by Mr. Cote and sent out, with regard to the way in which certain enumerations should be taken, meets with the approval of myself as the head of the department. I see nothing in that letter that is in any Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).
way objectionable. It was written and issued to the enumerators for the purpose of securing an accurate enumeration of the people, and as such it meets writh the approval of the department.


Robert Laird Borden: I might say to the hon. gentleman that these facts were brought to the attention of the public as far back as Thursday last; and although I did not take any action in regard to the matter until Saturday, I procured one of the original circulars sent to the census enumerators, and I have it in my possession now. I might also point out that the handing of these circulars to these men was apparently done in a very insidious way, and done to deceive the public and make them believe that it was necessary for them to answer the questions there asked, because section 22 of the Census Act states that any form purporting to be an authorized form is prima facie evidence that it is the proper form. Apart from any such provision of the statute, a form printed in this way, with all the appearance of verisimilitude, would be apt to deceive nine out of every ten people with the idea that it was something the government was actually asking them to fill in,
* Mr. INGRAM. It is well known, I think, to all the public men in Canada, that some such movement as the issue of this circular was contemplated some months ago ; and if the government believed such an idea was a good one, why did they not issue the circular in the ordinary way and take the full responsibility of it the same as any other document connected with the census ? The hon. gentleman stated to-day that 744 of these circulars were sent to Ontario, 19(5 to New Brunswick, 287 to Prince Edward Island and 441 to British Columbia, or a total of 1,855. If these figures are correct, they only amount to 1,668, so that there is a discrepancy as to the number sent out. I have only to say that if it goes throughout the country that this assistant census commissioner issued this circular, that is one reason to my mind why such a circular as that read by the hon. member for East Sim-coe (Mr. Bennett) has been circulated throughout a portion of the province of Ontario. It seems to me it is a bad way to commence the work of taking the census The document should have been officially issued by the government. If that had been done, we would not have heard the criticism we have heard to-night. For my part, I do not think the government can be condemned too strongly. So far as the Prime Minister of Ontario is concerned, when his attention was drawn to this circular he made light of it as a very trifling affair. I can easily understand that. The Prime Minister of Ontario has so far forgotten his duty as an honourable man in conducting the affairs of the province that it would require a great

deal to prick his conscience. He is lost to all sense of honour, and therefore he treated the matter in the light way he did. But I think the time is not far distant when a man with a greater sense of honour will control the province of Ontario, and then we shall hear no more of such transactions.


William Humphrey Bennett: Is the form of oath required in section 14 on the file ? It says that a form of oath shall he furnished to the enumerators which shall be contained in an order in council, and I cannot find it in the papers at all.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The form of oath was sent to the enumerators, but it is not in this book of instructions. It was a separate paper.


William Humphrey Bennett: Is there not one available for the House ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I can get one from the department and lay it on the Table. It was inadvertently omitted from these papers.


James Clancy: The hon. gentleman said he approved of what he called the Cote circular. Did he sanction it as an official document before it was issued ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I authorized Mr. Cote to write such a letter. I did not see that particular letter before it was sent out.


Hon. Mr. TISDALE.: May I ask the minister whether he directed the assistant commissioner to put ' confidential' on an official document ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I said a moment ago that I did not see that particular document before it went out.


David Tisdale: I understood the hon. minister to say that he authorized such a document. I ask him if he authorized this paid agent of the Canadian government to write a confidential circular to certain people ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, I did not.


David Tisdale: Then the minister did not carefully consider this matter, which is creating a great deal of feeling throughout the country, and he was not correct in saying that he authorized that document ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I said I authorized Mr. Cote to write a letter, but I did not authorize the words of that particular letter, because I did not see it before it was sent out.


David Tisdale: It seems to me that the bon. gentleman ought not to allow a letter of that kind to be sent out without first revising it. I have some knowledge of the taking of censuses, and I have yet to learn
that it has ever been considered necessary that the man next the commissioner should send out a confidential circular to any part of the population. What makes this more grave is, that it will convince people that the information which they are assured will be kept secret may at any time become public property, and, at any rate, it is to be put into the hands of the machine politicians. It is evident that these machine men, who run the elections for hon. gentlemen opposite, are to be given every access to the information taken by the census commissioner, and every facility for utilizing it in the interests of their employers. I have never heard of anything of the kind having been done in this or any other British country, nor has it ever been resorted to in-the neighbouring republic, and I know something of the method of taking the census in that country. I hope that for the sake of the good name of the government and of parliament and of the country, this matter will be thoroughly investigated. If we cannot have this investigation made by the enumerators, let the government employ the police and the detectives who are paid by this country, and let the men who sent out these circulars be punished with the extreme penalty of the law.


Edward Gawler Prior: The hon. the Minister of Agriculture has said that he approves entirely of the circular sent out by Mr. Cote to the French Canadians, and marked ' confidential.' I am glad to say, that although the minister approves of this circular, there are some men to whom it was sent who do not. I received a letter some days ago from a French Canadian who lives in British Columbia, and to whom this French circular was sent. He wrote me as follows :
107 Moss Street, Victoria, B.C.,
March 21, 1901.
Col. Prior, M.P.
Dear Sir,-Inclosed please find a communication that was sent to me, and a_copy of my reply thereto.
They will speak for themselves, and I hope you will bring the matter forward and have it threshed out, that we may know who is responsible.
I would feel obliged if you would return me the circular when you are done with it.
Believe me, yours truly,
T. A. LePAGE.
The letter which he inclosed reads as follows :
107 Moss Street, Victoria, B.C.,
March 21, 1901.
Thomas Cote, Esq.,
Assistant Census Commissioner.
Dear Sir,-I beg to acknowledge receipt of your printed ciruciar, dated March 1, 1901.
Whilst I shall be pleased to do all that lies in my power to assist the census commissioners in their laudable endeavours to get a true and correct census in every detail, still I must say that it is with considerable regret that I find there is an evident deliberate intention on the

part of some in authority to foster and keep alive racial feelings and prejudices (I will not say hatreds) between the French and English population of Canada.
To me their duty lies clearly the other way- to smooth over and obliterate all traces of the unhappy relations of the two races on Canadian soil in the centuries that are gone, and in teaching the written history of the past to the young of both races, to impress upon them that as it was their duty and glory in the days gone by to stand foot to foot, so now it must be equally their pride and pleasure to march forward towards the universal brotherhood of all men.
I am sending your communication to me, with a copy of my reply, to Col. Prior, M.P., one of our members of the House of Commons, with a request to him to endeavour to find out from his place in parliament if it is with the knowledge and consent of Sir Wilfrid Laurier and his government, that this unwise and unpatriotic policy is being pursued.
I remain, sir,
Your humble servant,
T. A. LePAGE.
P.S.-L'union c'est la force.
That is the opinion of a French Canadian who lives in British Columbia, and to whom this French circular was sent. Why was that circular marked ' confidential ' ? I do not know by whom it was franked, but the circular was marked ' confidential.' Had Mr. Cfitfi instructions from the bon. gentleman to make it confidential. Evidently if the hon. minister and the members of the government think that it is the correct sort of circular to send, one Frenchman, at all events, or one Canadian of French descent, thinks it is decidedly unpatriotic. I asked Mr. Cdtfi whether he had heard from Mr. r.ePage. and he wrote me as follows :
Ottawa, April 1st, 1901.
Hon. Col. Prior, M.P.,
House of Commons, Ottawa.
Dear Col. Prior,-I have received from one of your electors, Mr. T. A. LePage, on March the 21st, a communication of which you have also received a copy. As you have received from Mr. LePage said communication, I beg- to inclose you a copy of my answer, which will, I think, demonstrate to you that there was no intention whatever on my part to ' foster and keep alive racial feelings and prejudices between the French and English population of Canada.'
Truly yours,
THOMAS COTE, Assistant Census Commissioner.
April 1st, 1901.
T. A. LePage, Esq.,
107 Moss Street, Victoria, B.C.
Dear Sir,-I have received your communication of March the 21st. I am sorry that you did not understand the meaning of my letter of the 1st ultimo. If I am to judge by the last sentence of your letter, you are able to read and speak the French language. Perhaps, though, I am mistaken. In case I am, I beg to send you herewith a verbatim translation of my first communication to you. In reading it over carefully, I think that you shall come to the conclusion that you have no justification whatever in finding that ' there is an evident deliberate intention on the part of some one Mr. PRIOR.
in authority to foster and keep alive racial feelings and prejudices between the French and English population of Canada.'
You are, yourself, evidently from French origin. Would you tell me in what way you will be hurting the feelings of your fellow-countrymen of English origin in having your own origin properly registered in the census tables?
In the province of Quebec, the two elements of population are living in harmony; but, in the meantime, both of them are proud of their origin. The English people keep their traditions as the French do for their own. This, by any means, does not prevent them from being good citizens of this country and of working hand-to-hand for its prosperity.
In looking carefully into the census tables, you will find that I have not written you one word which was not justifiable and right. On table No. 1 there is a column for the origin, a column for the mother tongue when spoken, and also a column for the nationality, which must be, and in fact is, for every citizen of Canada, ' Canadian.- This will demonstrate to you that the census will be taken, this year, in such a way that the German, or English, or French, or Scotch, or Irish, origin of a man will be ascertained. If a man like you see fit to declare to the census-taker that he is from English origin, when in fact he is from French origin, that is his own business.
In our province, we have persons by the name of Ross, of MacLean, of Warren, of Carroll, &c., who are evidently from Irish, Scotch or English origin. Many of them don't speak any more the English language. They do speak French. In the census tables they will be registered as being from Irish, Scotch or English origin, as the case may be, and in the column of the language they will be registered as speaking the French language.
Why, I want to know, a citizen of French origin living in British Columbia, or in other English provinces, and speaking no more the French language, should not be registered in the column of the origins as being from French origin, and in the column of the language as speaking the English language? Where do you see in that any attempt to ' foster and keep alive racial feelings and prejudices between the French and English population of Canada?
Candidly, I think you have not understood the question at all.
I deny altogether the charge that you have made. There was not and there is not any intention on my part to keep alive what you call ' racial feelings and prejudices.' I have the pretension of being too good a Canadian for that, and I think that I do understand better than you do, that It is possible in this country to be proud of our ancestors and of our origin, and, in the meantime, to live in peace and In harmony with every one.
Truly yours,



[Stage Direction]
Assistant Census Commissioner.
Notv. I contend that that letter, coming from the assistant commissioner is a most improper letter. X consider that he has no right to enter into correspondence with any man on the subject in this manner. I think this desire on the part of the government to ask such questions as to French origin, English origin, or any other, is one that should be regarded with disfavour. What we want in this country is, as Mr. APRIL 15, 1901
LePage says, to smooth over these difficulties. It is not necessary to know if a man is of French or English or German origin, but to know if he is a Canadian, I do not think the government is acting in the best interest of the country, and I know hundreds of men in British Columbia who consider that this circular is not in the best interest of Canada, and that the sending of it out is a thing much to be regretted.
Mr. BARKER.: I would like to ask the hon. minister if he is aware that Mr. CStS has issued another circular, one that is quite as improper, apparently, as the one issued In Ontario, in which lie asks that returns be made direct to him as assistant commissioner of matters wholly outside his duty as commissioner ? Does the hon. minister know that Mr. Cote has asked to have returns made to him of French Canadians who do not live in this country at all, but who live in the United States ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I will answer the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Barker's) question first. I am not aware of such a circular as the hon. gentleman indicates. But the description is such that I might not be able to recognize it. I shall find out at once whether such a circular has been issued.
circulars sent out either by Mr. Cote or by any other officer of the department.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I might say that we are receiving every day questions by the commissioners to which we send answers. If the hon. gentleman wants all these questions and answers, I will lay them on the Table, but it will make a pretty big volume, and I do not think that is what he wants. But, of course, all general instructions could be brought down, and this would probably cover what the hon. gentleman wants.


Robert Laird Borden: That is all I had in mind.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Now, with regard to the hon. member from Victoria, B.C. (Mr. Prior), and what he says concerning Mr. Cote's circular. In the first place he has read correspondence that I recognize as having read myself. This circular was sent to gentlemen in different parts of the country, whose names were given to Mr. COte


Edward Gawler Prior: By whom?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: By different people-they were got in any way they could be.


Samuel Barker: The hon. gentleman could see it published in a dozen newspapers within the last two weeks. It is not a secret.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not know the circular, and have not seen it. I confess that I do not study the newspapers ns closely as hon. gentlemen opposite, or as closely as some hon. gentlemen on this side do. I have not seen the circular he has alluded to.


Robert Laird Borden: Might I suggest, before the hon, gentleman proceeds, it might be desirable, for the information of the House, that copies of all circulars sent out be laid on the Table. The hon. gentleman referred to one that was sent out in answer to questions that had been asked


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Instructions sent to the commissioner. It was not in the form of a circular. It was sent to a number of commissioners in the province of Quebec.


Robert Laird Borden: Are the instructions comprised in these laid on the Table ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, it was sent in response to questions sent in by the commissioners.


Robert Laird Borden: I think the House, before passing this vote would like to have a copy of the instructions to all census commissioners, enumerators, and so on, or to any of them, and a copy of all


Edward Gawler Prior: Who were they given to ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I really cannot tell. Mr. Cote was instructed to find out who might aid in securing them amongst the population of French origin, who in times gone by have been, to a certain extent, mislead as to the census taking. The object is to lead to these people giving correct and full answers to the enumerator's questions. I may say that in large parts of the province of Quebec, some people were told that the questions of the census were to afford a basis for imposing taxation. In another place there was a story of conscription for military service. And in other parts equally absurd statements were circulated. It was with the desire of removing such difficulties from the enumerators' way, that the circular was issued.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: Why should they be sent out ' confidential ?'


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Because there were the stories circulated amongst the French Canadians. We have not received complaints that the same stories were circulated amongst the Englishspeaking people. The only object was to secure an enumeration and to prepare for the correct answers to the questions put. My hon. friend from Victoria says he does not see why questions as to origin should be asked.


Edward Gawler Prior: Hear, hear.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I can only sav that the hon. gentleman is at variance with all othet people who have had to do with the same thing, because this question as to origin is asked in all the censuses that I know about, or that the officers ot the department know about. It is a proper question to ask, and it is a question which statisticians desire to be asked and to be answered. In this country we are not ashamed to know and to publish abroad that we are a people of different origins, that we are living together here in Canada, and are trying to build up a nation composed of these different origins, which I trust, however, in the course of time, will form a homogeneous nation. In this connection, I would like to say a word about something which the hon. gentleman did not directly refer to, that for the first time an opportunity is given in this census to the people to call themselves Canadians. Heretofore in the census of Canada all persons have called themselves something else, there was no provision in any schedule of a former census for a man to call himself a Canadian. Now, for the first time, a provision is made for the enumeration of the people under the head of nationality, so that any citizen of Canada living here is allowed to call himself a Canadian. I feel that this is an important step in the right direction.
Mr. BENNETT, Did not the schedules in former censuses show where the people were born ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes.


William Humphrey Bennett: Then, would they not show that people who were born in Canada were Canadians ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, but there are many people who are Canadians and who were not born in Canada. There are gentlemen sitting in this House who at heart are Canadians to the core, but who were born in other countries. There are many people in this country who were not born in Canada, but who are just as good Canadians as the men whose fathers and grandfathers were born here.


William Humphrey Bennett: Would not the schedules then have stated whether a Canadian was native-born or naturalized ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: They did not do so. Moreover-the hon. gentleman is again astray-there are people who are Canadians, but were not born in Canada, and who have not got to be naturalized, because they were born in the British Empire, and are subjects of His Majesty the King, although they may not have been Canadians in days past. But, to-day they are just as good Canadians as anybody living in this country.


Edward Gawler Prior: 


Andrew B. Ingram: The hon. gentleman, who has excused the circular issued by Mr. C0t6, if he will read the schedule will find that the country of origin is asked for in the ordinary way, without any special circular being needed at all. Any person reading that circular, and reading between the lines, can easily divine its object, and that is something which, up to this time, the hon. gentleman has not excused. The schedules provide for everything that is necessary to collect in a census of the Dominion of Canada. Every one knows that months ago the Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte) had stated, or was credited with having stated, that the government intended to arrive at a correct number of the French Canadians in the Dominion of Canada


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I hope so.
Mr. INGRAM-and that he was going to make a special effort for that purpose. 1 want to know why there should be any special effort made to secure the number of Frenchmen in this country any more than the number of Irishmen, Englishmen or Scotchmen ? Has it a tendency towards wiping out the racial cry in this country ? The effect is directly opposite, and I say the sooner they abandon that kind of thing, the better it will be for the Dominion of Canada ; and the fewer men we have in this House who are trading on different kinds of religious goods, the better it will be for this country. I do not care where my remarks land, because I am a Canadian in the first place, and I believe we should cultivate the idea of calling ourselves Canadians instead of Frenchmen, Irishmen, Englishmen or Scotchmen. The hon. gentleman says that that circular meets with his approval. The hon. gentleman is not in a position to say that that word ' confidential ' was authorized by him.


David Tisdale: He says he did not authorize it.


Andrew B. Ingram: It is there, nevertheless. The people of this country have to pay for the circulars that are issued by the officers of the department; then, I say that those officers have no right to issue a confidential circular to any class of the community. It is not a step in the right direction, it is a step in the wrong direction, and should be condemned by the people of this country. The hon. gentleman will not say whether | he authorized the word ' confidential.' Does the hon. gentleman say that again ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I need not repeat what I said.


Andrew B. Ingram: Then, the hon. gentleman admits he did not authorize the word ' confidential ' to be placed on that circular. Could he say that the government approved of the circular issued by Mr. C6t6 ? Then, if he approves of

the circular without approving of the word ' confidential,' then, he must condemn that word ' confidential.' Mr. Chairman, I, for one, believe in giving the census enumerators all the information that is required by the schedules. When the enumerator called on me I thought it was my duty to give fair and candid answers in so far as a citizen of this country could be called upon to answer. When 1 looked over the other schedules which he had in his possession, I believed all the requirements of this government, or of any other government, were fully set forth, and that they comprised all the facts it was necessary for the government of this country to obtain in order to present the true status of our population. But, when I read this circular in the newspapers, I, for one, as a Canadian, strongly condemned it, and I will condemn any other circular of a similar character that is issued, whether it affects Frenchmen, Englishmen! Irishmen or Scotchmen.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. I am sorry that this matter has created such a tempest in a teapot. The last census that was taken in 1891 was unsatisfactory so far as the French population of Canada was concerned. That was the case not only in Manitoba and the Territories, but even in the maritime provinces. It was not the fault of the census takers, but It was owing to the state of mind that exists in some parts of Canada about the word Canadian. The French Acadians of the maritime provinces object to calling themselves Canadians ; they are Acadians. The French half-breeds of the North-west Territories object to be called Canadians ; they are half-breeds of French origin. The result was that after the census was taken not half the people of French origin, either in the North-west or in the maritime provinces, were recorded. This year a step was taken in order to avoid such a mistake. I must say, however, that it was a mistake to make that circular confidential. The circular should have been issued openly, and I am glad to hear from the minister that it was not done by his authorization. But, Sir, 1 believe that a census should be an accurate account of the population, and of the changes that take place in the population. In the United States they do not only take the origin of the father, but also the origin of the mother, and take very extensive and explicit information concerning the family. I believe that if we would consider the feelings that may exist, we should have a census that will give as full details as possible in regard to origin, not only of Frenchmen, but of all the other nationalities. I, for one, am proud of being of French extraction, and I believe that the Irishman, the Englishman and the Scotchman, or the men of any other nationality in Canada, are also proud of their origin. And, Sir, I believe that while it was thought proper to issue such a circular, a similar
one might have been issued in regard to other nationalities, so as to put every one on the same footing. But, there was cause here for the reason that when the former census was taken, on account of prejudice due to a wrong feeling, we did not get an accurate report of the status of the population of this country. There has been a step taken in the right direction, I believe, this time, but it should not have been done surreptitiously. This circular should have been issued openly, and, therefore, it is a good thing it has been published, because we all know the contents of the circular, and we hope the result will be satisfactory!


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I would like to know, is Mr. Cote the assistant commissioner for the whole Dominion, or is there any other assistant commissioner besides Mr. Cotd ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, there is another assistant commissioner, Mr. St. Denis.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: In what way do his duties harmonize with those of Mr. Cote ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: He is attending to the office work. He is an old employe of the office.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: Mr. Cot6 represents the province of Quebec ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No, he represents no special province. He represents the outside work.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: There are two assistant commissioners ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: And a commissioner ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I think it Is a most preposterous admission that has been made here to-night that a confidential circular was sent to a portion of the population. A confidential circular should not be sent to any of the citizens of this country. If a circular were sent out it should have been sent to every citizen of the country. There should be no * confidential ' about it. This circular was not sent to the other citizens. A particular number of citizens were selected to send this circular to, and it was to be a confidential circular. Why was not the rest of the population to know anything about this circular which was sent out ? Its contents were not to be divulged because it was marked ' confidential.' The hon. minister tells us that he did not know anything about it, that he was totally unaware of it. He says that he was unaware of it until it was sent out and published, but that he has since seen it, and that he heartily endorses it. That lowers him still more in my estimation as to his capability of



carrying out the census enumeration of this Dominion of Canada. He says that it is necessary to send out that confidential circular. Why ? Because he says there were stories circulating amoug the French that the census was meant to form a basis for increased taxation, that it was to get information that would enable the government to adopt conscription and that it would result in compelling these French Canadians to go out and fight for the nation at the beck and call of Great Britain, and so on. He says that this was the reason why these confidential circulars were sent out. If that was the reason, I would like to know why the 400,000 French Canadian families were not sent this circular ? Why did they pick out a few thousand to whom this circular was to be sent, and why did they decide that 400,000 families of French people were not to have this circular sent to them at all ? The excuse the hon. minister has given is a little too lame. It is one that may satisfy him, but it will not satisfy the people of the country. When the hon. member for Hamilton (Mr. Barker) calls his attention to another circular issued by this same Mr. Cot6 in regard to other matters, he says that if he sees a copy he will make inquiries, but he must confess that he did not study the newspapers. I think he had better study something or other, if it is only a newspaper. It appears that he does not study anything. He had not seen a copy of this confidential circular which was sent broadcast over the Dominion. What does he see or what does he know or what does he do ? Has he any other duty than to draw his salary and explain cold storage, that he did not know anything about and had to be prompted by the commissioner at his elbow, to be able to answer every question asked him by my hon. friends on this side of the House ? He says that if he happens to get a copy of this circular he will make inquiries, when the hon. member for Hamilton has told him of a most monstrous circular being circulated. If he happens to get a copy he will make inquiries. The census was supposed to be commenced to be taken on the 1st of April, just two weeks ago to-day. The taking of the census will be concluded, except in some sparsely settled districts, in a very few days, if the enumerators are properly doing their duty. I do not think that ten years ago it took, on the average, in the ordinary constituencies. more than three weeks, and I do not think that long, to take the census. The census ought to be completed in a few days. I know, up where I live myself, the enumerator was too busy to go to work from day to day, as the obligation of his oath would require him to do, to take the census, and so it is all round. Here are these things being done, time is urgent^ it is of pressing necessity if any wrong is going on. and yet, when some extraordinary circular is being issued, the minister does not say : I will


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: get up early to-morrow morning with the lark, I will inquire if anything wrong is being done, and if so I will set it right, but, he says if he sees anything of this circular, if he sees a copy that should stray in at his window, he will make inquiries about it. How condescending, how capable, how proper is the course of the Minister of Agriculture in this matter 1 It is a matter of vital importance that everything should be done rightly. Why, instructions are being sent out day by day to the enumerators and to the census commissioners through the country for the counties and the electoral districts. These instructions should have been sent out before the 1st of April, they should have been considered carefully, they should have been gone over, they should have received the endorsation of the minister and the government, they should have been sent out and the whole people should have known what they are. We are now, for the first time, confronted with that information. One copy is laid on the Table of the House to-night. Everybody ought to have known it a month ago. The enumerator comes round to your house and asks for information. You are not prepared at a moment's notice to give him that information. If it is printed in the public press, if the people get hold of it, they will see the questions that will be asked of them iand they will be ready to answer them. They will say : We had better hunt up and get the information, not only about our family, which would be easily got, but the information about our business, manufactures, the stock that is held and those things that form part of the information that must be given. Why should there be any secret about it ? Why should it be the 15th of April before the minister gives the House of Commons a copy of the questions that are to he asked and the instructions to the officers. We are all in a dilemma about this. I have had no opportunity of looking at the instructions and I do not know whether I am to be enumerated in Ottawa, as having slept here on the night of the 31st of March, or whether I am to be counted at my home in Woodbridge. I want the minister to tell me.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: You will come in somewhere.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: Is that all the minister knows about it ? The minister is asking for money here and we will have that information before the estimate goes through.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The instructions tell the enumerator what to do.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: In the few minutes since the instructions have been laid on the Table of the House I have not been able to see them, and the minister does not actually know what his own instructions are.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: You will hear about them some time.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: The minister will hear a good many times about the incompetency with which the affairs of his department are being conducted. He told us to-night that there was a column for Canadians and in that column are counted those who may have been born in Great Britain and Ireland, and presumably natives of Sweden or any foreign country who have taken the oath of allegiance will be included. A more absurd systejn of taking the census could not be devised. Canadians ought to be assumed to be Canadians born. My hon. friend from Victoria, B.C. (Mr. Prior), was, I presume, born in England, and when he puts his name down as being of English birth, he cannot claim to be a native Canadian as well. He cannot be born in Canada and in Great Britain. The thing is absurd. The minister told us to-night that he had not heard of this circular to which attention has been called until this morning. I will read a report of the debate which occurred in the Ontario legislature on Thursday last, four days ago. It says :
Mr. Whitney sprang a surprise by producing a copy of a circular which has been sent out in thousands to census enumerators all over the province, directing them to fill out certain forms stating the politics and religion of every male over sixteen in their ridings, and forward this record to the Liberal member or defeated candidate in the riding. This information, it was proposed to use, said Mr. Whitney, in the coming Ontario and the next Dominion general elections.
Mr. Whitney pointed out that as census enumerators were sworn to secrecy, this was a direct inducement, almost a command, to them to perjure themselves. The moment they complied with the request they would be guilty of perjury.
Here is a matter affecting the department of the minister (Hon. Mr. Fisher) in reference to which every paper in Canada was ringing about on Friday morning; a thing that every person in Canada except the Minister of Agriculture knew all about, and he was oblivious and ignorant of the whole thing until this Monday morning. Of course we have to accept his statement, but it simply means that the minister (Hon. Mr. Fisher) knows nothing about matters which vitally affect his department. A few days and the census will be over and yet this Minister of Agriculture seems to put himself some place where no information can reach him.


Mr. TAYLOR.: In cold storage.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: Yes, he is put away in cold storage and he does not know anything about this matter until this morning, and then he coolly tells us that if he hears anything more about it he might make inquiries. This report goes on to say :
The Hon. Mr. Ross

97i
Not our right hon. friend across there from Cape Breton (Mr. Ross).
The Hon. Mr. Ross, the premier, in response, admitted that the Liberal party had fathered the circulars, and made light of the matter. It did not appear a conspiracy against the public weal in his eyes.
Mr. Ross admitted that the Liberal party had fathered this circular. Who is the Liberal party and where are the headquarters of the Liberal party, and who directs its movements. Is it the right hon. the leader of the Uominion government ? He is the head of the Liberal party in this Dominion. Is he the father of the circular 7 I shall not accuse him of it, because I do not believe he would be guilty of conduct like that. I will freely exonerate him from any such conduct. But Mr. Ross, the Prime Minister of Ontario, says that the Liberal party fathered the responsibility of the circular, and as the leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden) has pointed out, that circular is a conspiracy against the nation. And, Sir, any enumerator who attempts to carry out the instructions of that circular can be arrested and will be arrested for perjury. It was the duty of the Minister of Agriculture on Friday morning last to telegraph to every one in charge of a census district and threaten them with all the penalties of the law if they did not at once destroy that infamous circular. A minister placed in charge of responsible duties as the head of a department cannot shirk his responsibility by saying that he knew nothing about this.
What are the objects of it 7 To furnish at the expense of the people of Canada information for the benefit of a political party -information which they have no right to ask from the people. The man who goes to the head of a household and asks for the information referred to in this circular has been instructed by whom 7 By the Liberal party. Where did the Liberal party get authority any more than the Conservative party to send such a circular to every census enumerator 7 The authority comes through this parliament of Canada, and nowhere else ; and if any other authority attempts to thrust itself on these enumerators, the government of this country should arrest the perpetrators and put them in the common jail, and try them for high crimes and misdemeanours. The premier of Ontario has committed the Liberal party to these circulars, for he admitted that the Liberal party had fathered them. He could not get out of it. It would not do to repeat the old story that the ballots were burnt in the cellar of the legislature of Ontario, and that they took fire by spontaneous combustion. That kind of yarn did not go down in that case, and it will not in this. This circular was printed at somebody's expense, and we presume it was handed to every census enumerator in Ontario, and the Minister of Agriculture folds his arms utterly uncon-

cerned about it, saying that he will consider it, that be did not bear of it until to-day, and be does not propose to do anything even at this late hour of the day. fifteen days elapsed before be knew anything about it. That circular must have reached the census enumerators before they started on their duties on the 1st of April. A nice way the business is being conducted. In the meantime the census enumerators have been filling up these circulars. One of them goes to a man, we will assume, and asks the date of his birth, the number of the lot or house


Mr. DAVIS.: So long as he does not go to the graveyards to get information, as you did in 1891, it will be all right.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I think the hon. member for Saskatchewan had better get another haul of half-breed scrip, and it will satisfy him.


Thomas Osborne Davis: We will have to give you a scrip.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: The enumerator will also get the nationality, the post office address, the religion, and the church to which the man belongs ; and then he has to make some remarks. He will also get the man's politics. What right have these enumerators to go to a household and ask the politics of any man in this country ? Who gave them authority to do that ? As the hon. member for East Simcoe pointed out, if a citizen having a schedule placed before him refuses to answer the questions in it, he can be prosecuted. When asked what his politics are, his natural inclination would be to say : It is nobody's business what my politics are ; I can disclose them, or I can refuse to disclose them, just as I please.' I would like to know where in all this country it is permitted to ask a man what his politics are. We have voting by ballot in this country, and it is supposed to be secret and sacred. But here is something put down in front of you, and it is said that there are severe pains and penalties if you refuse to answer anything in that circular. What right has the Minister of Agriculture to countenance the promulgation of that circular ? He says he did not know anything about it until to-day. What has he done since he did know about it ? Has he done anything ?


Mr. HOLMES.: Will the hon. member for West York allow me to ask him a question ? Will he tell us what proof there is that that particular circular which he is alluding to was sent to the census enumerators ?


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I will tell him why :
Mr. Whitney sprung a surprise by producing a copy of a circular which had been sent out by thousands to census enumerators all over the province.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: 


Robert Holmes: You are reading from a newspaper article. I will admit they are not always reliable.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I am not reading a newspaper article in that sense. I am reading a report of a debate in the local legislature.


Robert Holmes: That still is no proof of your statement.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I will give the answer which the hon. member for West Huron wants :
The premier, in response, admitted that the Liberal party had fathered these circulars.


Robert Holmes: The hon. member for West York has not answered my question still. There is no proof in the statement, or the.article you are quoting from, that the circular was sent to a census enumerator. It is only a matter of assumption.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I would like to know if the hon. gentleman will accept the confession of the premier of Ontario ?


Robert Holmes: The premier of Ontario does not say so.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: The premier of Ontario said distinctly that the Liberal party had fathered these circulars.


Robert Holmes: That does not say that it was sent to the census enumerators.


George Taylor: You will not deny it ?


Robert Holmes: I do< deny it as far as I know anything about it.


Robert Laird Borden: If the hon. gentleman had known what took place, in the Ontario parliament, he would not have asked the question he did. It was distinctly argued there that the form of this circular showed that it was intended to be placed in the hands of the census enumerators ; the whole make-up of it showed that, and when the debate took place in the Ontario parliament, that was not denied.


Robert Holmes: With all deference to the hon. leader of the opposition, I take exception to his statement. If that circular was sent to the census enumerators, I ask for the proof. All this argument is based on assumption, pure and simple.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: The assumption is all on the side of the hon. member for West Huron. We have the evidence.


Robert Holmes: You have no proof of it at all.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: We have the statement made by Mr, Whitney in the local legislature, and the admission of Mr. Ross.


Robert Holmes: Mr. Whitney does not state that it was sent to the census enumerators. I challenge the hon. member for West York to show that he did.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I will accept tlie challenge :
Mr. Whitney sprung a surprise by producing a copy of a circular which had been sent out by thousands to census enumerators all over the province.


Robert Holmes: I admit that, hut I do not accept that as proof.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: Then I am only wasting valuable time discussing the matter any further with our good friend from West Huron. Mr. Whitney makes the statement distinct and positive, and Mr. Ross admits the truth of it, and says it is only a trifling matter not worth bothering about. Yet the hon. gentleman, census commissioner and assistant commissioners, and all that great staff of diligent officials which we read about-not one of them is able to tell the Minister of Agriculture a word about it, and he tells us that he is in utter ignorance of the fact. Does the hon. gentleman intend doing anything ? The hon. gentleman pleads that he does not read the newspapers, but [DOT] he should read them and inform himself and see that the guilty are prosecuted.


Robert Laird Borden: We should have some information laid on the Table with regard to the instructions and circulars.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I laid the instructions and schedules on the Table a few minutes ago.


George Taylor: What about this special circular ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That was not sent to the enumerators at all.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: That circular was sent out, and we want it.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have nothing to do with that and know nothing about it.


Robert Laird Borden: I understood that a certain circular referred to by the member for Hamilton (Mr. Barker) would be laid on the Table.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I know nothing of such a circular, but if there is any such I shall only be too happy to lay it on the Table.


Robert Laird Borden: I also understood that certain instructions, to which the hon. gentleman referred in the afternoon, would be laid on the Table.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Yes, the instructions sent to enumerators in the province of Quebec, which are referred to in Mr. Cote's letter, will be laid on the Table also.


Robert Laird Borden: Better let the item stand until these are laid on the Table.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Why not pass the item ? We have only
passed two items so far although we have been at work four hours.


Robert Laird Borden: They were very important items.


William Humphrey Bennett: Are there any instructions other than those in the book I have in my hand, and which was laid on the Table, given to the enumerators ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Not that I know of.


William Humphrey Bennett: I shall not speak for any riding outside my own, but taking the intelligence of some of the enumerators in that riding, they will have considerable trouble wrestling with some of these instructions. [ He is one of them :
In every case where members of the family or household are temporarily absent from their home or usual place of abode, their names or records should be dealt with so as to conform, as near as may be, with the general conception of a de jure system of enumeration.
Can the hon. minister inform the House what is the general conception of a de jure system of enumeration ?


George Taylor: Now that the minister has seen the circular sent to the enumerators, to which Mr. Whitney refers, and which the Prime Minister of Ontario admitted was sent to him he should be able to give us some information as to the action he has taken to bring this matter to the attention of the enumerators throughout Ontario.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: And what has been done with these circulars by the census enumerators ?


William Humphrey Bennett: I would ask the hon. minister to explain for the benefit of the enumerators, what he means by that clause in the instructions in which he tells the enumerators to conform, in the case of those who are temporarily absent, as nearly as may be with the general conception of a de jure system of enumeration.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There are two well known systems of taking the census-one the de jure and the other de facto. In the de facto census, nobody is entered except those actually present at the date of taking the census. But under the de jure system, people temporarily absent are counted as being in the place from which they were absent at the moment, but which is their usual residence and home. In this way, people are taken who are not present when the questions of the census are put. I do not know that there is any legal definition of the word de jure. No doubt, the hon. gentleman knows the exact meaning of it, but this is what I may call a technical definition of the de jure census as distinguished from a de facto census.


William Humphrey Bennett: The words occur a few lines above ' temporarily absent.' Are they

expected to enumerate persons who may be temporarily absent, in the United States, for instance, and is there any schedule for such absentees ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The people who are absent from their homes, when they are in another part of this country or beyond it's borders are, by a de jure census, counted, provided the absence is not greater than a year. Or, if the people there state positively that the person is only absent temporarily, and has not made his home elsewhere he is counted.


William Humphrey Bennett: Can the hon. minister show where the instructions are restricted to a year's absence ? I do not find it.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I icannot find It at the moment, but it is there, I know.
Quarantine-Salaries and contingencies of organized districts and public health in other districts, $f0,000.


Robert Laird Borden: There is an increase here of $5,000.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That is due partly to increased work in connection with the protections of our frontier between the United States and ourselves. There has been a great deal of small-pox in the United States, and some little in Canada, and the people along the border have demanded that we should protect them against the bringing in of disease. I might say that I shall have to ask a further amount in the supplementary estimates, because the work is increasing. It is partly due also to the precautions against the bubonic plague which has caused us to make expenditures in connection with people coming in from the Orient.


Robert Laird Borden: What description of protection has the hon. gentleman adopted with regard to the small-pox and the bubonic plague ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: We have required the fumigation and cleansing of all oriental incomers. Ordinarily, unless disease is aetualy found we allow them to pass, but the inspection now is more strict. This causes a great increase of work at the William's Head station. We have also to examine vessels coming coastwise from the United States ports which formerly came in without examination. As to the small-pox, we have named officers along the frontier whose duty it is to enforce vaccination upon people coming in from districts in the United States where there is small-pox. This involves heavy expenditure.


Robert Laird Borden: Is that carried on all along the frontier or only on a portion of it ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Wherever there seems to be danger. The chief superintendent general of public health is in constant touch with United States authorities, and learns just where the danger of small-pox is.


Robert Laird Borden: As there is to be another vote for quarantine, the subject can be further discussed.
Quarantine-Cattle quarantine, $35,000.


Robert Laird Borden: There is an increase here of $3,500 as compared with last year.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That is due to work In North-west Territories. The work formerly was done by the mounted police. But, in consequence of the South African war, veterinary surgeons and others trained to the work have been called away. They have not returned and we have had to engage outside workers, besides making a new arrangement with the mounted police officers, giving them a little more, because the work has increased throughout the Territories.
Quarantine-Compensation for slaughter of hogs and sheep and all other expenses connected therewith, $10,000.


John McGowan: What is the meaning of that ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: This service has been carried on for a long time, in the province of Ontario especially, but not exclusive. It is designed to protect against disease among hogs known as hog cholera. We have been pretty successful in stamping it out of late. We are asking $5,000 less this year than last. We were not called upon to use all the vote of last year, and we believe that $10,000 will be sufficient.


Andrew B. Ingram: Does the Ontario government contribute to this ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Not that I am aware of.
Quarantine-Towards the prevention of the spread of tuberculosis in cattle throughout the Dominion, $25,000.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I may say that the demand for tests with tuberculine is largely increasing. The people are gaining confidence from year to year in this test. But I have been obliged to increase the number of officers in consequence of certain action of the American authorities, who, heretofore, have accepted the certificates of our veterinary officers, but have now passed a regulation under which they will only accept certificates of the permanent officers of the department. I am making arrangements by which slightly to increase the number of permanent officers, and expect these officers to take complete charge of all this work, instead of -rjbarging


William Humphrey Bennett: fees, as was done to a certain extent before.


James Gilmour: In the arrangements made with the United States authorities, is there a provision that animals going from Canada to be slaughtered must have a certificate of good health to accompany them ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It is only animals for breeding and dairy purposes that require these certificates, animals for slaughter do not.
Some resolutions reported.
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved the adjournment of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: Will the right hon. gentleman state what will be taken up to-morrow ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: If the Solicitor General (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) is here, as I hope he will be, we will take up the Election Bill ; if not, one or two of the Bills of the Minister of the Interior, and then go into Supply.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: The Minister of Agriculture says he will not proceed with the census items, so we will take up either Public Works or Interior.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I shall require time to get some information to lay on the Table.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 12.30 a.m. Tuesday.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, April 16, 1901.