1901-03-29

[Stage Direction]
Mr. McISAAC moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 102) respecting a lease of certain railways in Manitoba.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.	.
Mr. McISAAC moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 103) an Act relating to an agreement between the government of
Alcorn,
Ball,
Barker,
Bell (Addington), Bennett,
Birkett,
Blain,
Borden (Halifax), Boyd,
Broder,
Bruce
Calvin,
Cargill,
Carscallen,
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Manitoba and the Canadian Northern Railway Company respecting certain railways.
Mr. RICHARDSON (Lisgar).: Is that entirely in conformity with the rules, Mr. Speaker ?


Mr. SPEAKER.: Yes. There has been a report of the Committee on Standing Orders.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: I understand the committee reported yesterday.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I have been led to believe that the Bill would be referred back to the Standing Orders Committee.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Yes, but I was not aware that the committee had reported yesterday.


Robert Lorne Richardson: Nor was I.


The PRIME MINISTER.: We will watch it in future.


Robert Lorne Richardson: Eternal vigilance-


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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 104) to incorporate the Nova Scotia Central Railway Company.-Mr. Fraser-by Mr. Mclsaac.
Bill (Mo. 105) to incorporate the Kamloops and Atlin Railway Company.-Mr. Prior.
Bill (No. 106) respecting the South Shore Railway Company.-Mr. Geoffrion.
Bill (No. 107) to confer upon the Commissioner of Patents certain powers for the relief of John Abell.-Mr. Rosamond.
Bill (No. 108) respecting the Manitoulin and North Shore Railway Company.-Mr. Dyment-by Mr. Holmes.
Bill (No. 109) to incorporate the Canadian National Bank.-Mr.	German-by	Mr. Holmes.	,
Bill (No. 110) to incorporate the Debenture and Securities Corporation of Canada.-Mr. Osier-by Mr. Barker.
Bill (No. Ill) to incorporate the Interprovincial and James Bay Railway Company.- Mr. Murray-by Mr. Holmes.
Bill (No. 112) respecting the Montreal and Southern Counties Railway Company.-Mr. Carroll-by Mr. Lavergne.

Mr. OLIVER moved :: That that portion of the sixth report of the Select Committee on Railways, Canals -and Telegraph Lines, reporting the preamble of Bill No. 38, respecting the Hudson Bay and Northwest Railways Company, and to change its name to the Great Northern Transit Company, ' not


Mr. McISAAC.: proven,' be referred back to the said committee for further consideration.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: I would ask my hon. friend not to press this motion, but to withdraw it until we have a fuller House. This is a matter of great importance and we have a thin House, and no one has had an opportunity of looking into the case.


Frank Oliver: Certainly.
Motion withdrawn.



DOMINION ELECTIONS ACT.

Mr.  A. A.@: WRIGHT (Renfrew) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 113) in further amendment of the Dominion Elections Act, 1900.
He said : This is practically the old Act of 1900 with this addition, that the ballot paper is entirely different from anything we have had hitherto. Each ballot paper has the portrait of the candidate with his name printed underneath in large legible type. A ballot will be provided for each candidate, and on the back will be the initials of the deputy returning officer. When the voter comes in to the polling booth, these ballots are handed to him, and he goes into an ante-room and there selects the ballot bearing the portrait of the candidate for whom he desires to vote. This ballot he folds up and gives to the returning officer, who places it in the ballot box, after verifying the initials to make sure that it is one of the ballots handed to the voter. The other ballot the voter hands to the deputy returning officer, who examines it to see that it has his initials, and then destroys it in the presence of the agents of the candidates. This will prevent the spoiling of ballots, because the voter does not require to mark any of them, and the. ballot is just as secret as any ballot can be. Any one who can read may vote in the same manner as heretofore, but a man who cannot read can easily see, by the portrait of the candidate for whom he wishes to vote, which ballot he should cast.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

Mr. HENRI BOURASSA (Labelle).: Before the Orders of the Day are called. I would ask the right hon. the Prime Minister whether the title of Privy Council of England which, according to the press of the last few days, has been conferred on him, is a renewal of the same title which had been already given the right hon. gentleman, and which renewal was rendered necessary by the death of the Queen ?
The PRIME MINISTER, I may say to my hon. friend that I have no more information than he has himself. I only know of this through the newspapers.



VOTE ON AMENDMENT TO BUDGET RESOLUTION.

Mr. JABEL ROBINSON (West Elgin).: I would like to draw attention to the record of last night's vote in the ' Hansard.' I am credited with having voted for the amendment. This is a mistake. I was not present, Mr. Speaker, and if I had been, I would not have voted for the amendment.


Mr. TAYLOR.: My hon. friend refers to the fact that his name appears as having been paired with Mr. Galliher. The pair should read Robinson (Northumberland), in place of Robinson (Elgin).



SUPPLY-CONCURRENCE.

[Stage Direction]
House proceeded to consider certain resolutions reported from Committee of Supply.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: In the earlier days of the session we brought down a special supplementary estimate, consisting of two or three items of urgency. These were adopted and passed through their various stages, but we were unable to submit them in the form of a Bill, owing to the fact that such procedure was blocked by the motion for Ways and Means. That motion being now out of the way, we are in a position to proceed, and after mentioning the matter to the hon. the leader of the opposition, 1 propose that we take the different stages in the case of these small items and introduce a Bill. These items are $10,000 for public buildings at Ottawa, $50,000 for St. Maurice slides and booms, and two items of $30,000 each in the Department of Agriculture, one for the Paris and one for the Buffalo exhibition.
Resolutions read the first and the second time and agreed to.



WAYS AND MEANS-EMPLOYMENT OF CHINESE AND JAPANESE.

[Stage Direction]
The Minister of Finance moved that the House go into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the following resolution :
Resolved, That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the .public service for the financial year ending the 30th June, 1901, the sum of one hundred and twenty thousand dollars be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Canada.
['We shall take up this Bill again on Monday, and afterwards go into Committee of Supply.']
Hon.  E. G.@: PRIOR (Victoria, B.O.) Before you leave the Chair, I wish to draw the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Hon. Sir Louis Davies) to a matter to which my attention has been called from the city of Victoria, B. C. On the 18th of this month I asked a question in this House as follows :
1.	Has the government issued orders to their agents in British Columbia not to employ Chinese or Japanese on any public works or government steamers?
2.	Is the government aware whether Chinese are employed as cooks on any government vessels in British Columbia?
3.	If they are so employed, is it the intention of the government to continue their services?
4.	Is the government aware that there are plenty of white cooks obtainable for such employment?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: No special instructions have been given, hut it is understood that Canadian labour is to he employed on the government steamers where it can be obtained, and we are not aware of any departure from the rule.
Yesterday I got the following telegram : E. G. Prior, Ottawa :
Chinese all signed on steamer Quadra's Commission.
This refers to the government steamer Quadra, that is now going into commission for the year. If it is true that the officers of the government have signed on Chinese- it does not say how many, but I presume it must be two or three at least, 1 think it is much to be deplored, for the government is aware of the strong feeling in British Columbia against the employment of Chinese or Japanese, especially on government works. Time and again for years past the British Columbia members in this House and also the local government have brought to the attention of this government the strong feeling that exists against the employment of these men. It seems to me after this answer that was given to me in this House, the government might have found out whether they were employing these men or not. Certainly they should send special instructions to their officials that under no circumstances should they give employment to Chinese or Japanese ou public steamers or on public works. I believe that the Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte) bad some correspondence in regard to the employment of Chinese in his department, and he very properly put a stop to it, as I am informed. I hope the minister will telegraph to see if this statement is correct. I have not the slightest doubt it is, because the gentleman who sent it to me is a well-known gentleman of veracity and good standing in Victoria. I hope the minister will give instructions that if these men are employed they will be discharged at once, and that white men he put in their places. I do not believe there is the slightest difficulty In getting white cooks, if it is cooks that are employed, because I was informed some time ago that several were to be got if they were only asked.


The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. Sir Louis Davies).: I have no special information with respect to the particular complaint the hon. gentleman makes that a Chinese cook has been taken on board the Quadra. I do know that for many years back under the late government as well as under the previous government,

there was a Chinese cook on board the Quadra. I rather understand that a change was made in that respect last year, because instructions were given to prefer Canadian labour to Chinese in all cases where it could be done. I will make inquiries and ascertain how far the hon. gentleman's statement is correct.
Hon, Mr. PRIOR. Is the hon. gentleman certain about his facts when he says that under the late government there were only Chinamen employed on the Quadra ?


The MINISTER OP MARINE AND FISHERIES.: I believe so.



Mr. T. O. DAVIS (Saskatchewan).: Before you leave the Chair, Mr. Speaker, there is a matter I wish to bring to the attention of the House, and that is with reference to the payment Of election officials in the North-west Territories during the election on the 7th of November last. I may say it is now some five months since the election was held, and the people who were employed by the government as enumerators, returning officers and deputy returning officers, have not up to the present time been paid. I do not know who is accountable for this. I was told it was on account of the Auditor General not being able to pass the accounts. If the Auditor General has got so much work on his hands that he cannot attend to business of that kind, I think the government should provide him with a larger staff. He informed me that he had his report to get out. While I do not know whether it is necessary that the Auditor General should have so large a report, it appears to me that if it keeps on growing, we will have to have a horse and cart to carry it about with us when we want to use it. In the meantime the fact that the Auditor General is busy should not be an excuse for allowing so many people in my section of the country, and I presume it is the same all over the Dominion, to remain unpaid simply because he appears to be too busy. I may say that in my riding some very long trips have to be taken, and it entails a good deal of expense, because the men who were appointed enumerators and deputy returning officers had to go to out-of-the-way places, in some cases they had to go to the bank and borrow money in order to carry out the work which was entrusted to them. They had to pay for that money something like 10 per cent, and some of these men had to borrow $200, and here they are paying 10 per cent on that money for fifteen months after this money has been earned by them. This is a fact that the government should take up and look into, and if the Auditor General is to blame he should be censured. It appears to me that the Auditor General passes a good deal Sir LOUIS DAVIES.
of his time in trying to pare down small accounts of this kind that he might very well allow to pass. For instance, if a man makes a trip to the North-west Territories for 200 or 300 miles, when he puts in his account, the Auditor General gets down with his rule on the map and starts to figure how much this man could have travelled by the distance he figures on the map. Now, Sir, you cannot arrive at the distance a man has to travel in the North-west Territories by a rule on the map, because there are lakes and muskegs that he has to go round. In my experience, a man might be inside a house half a mile away, and the enumerator would have to travel ten miles to get to it. Evidently the Auditor General is not posted in North-west matters, and he gets down with his rule and starts paring down these accounts. That is one of the reasons these accounts have not been paid. The Auditor General has to go through each one of them and keep paring them down, and in the meantime these poor people are kept out of their money for ten months. I do not think the Auditor General should assume that he and his staff are the only honest people in this country, and if he would show a little more judgment in these matters it would be better for all concerned. I would ask the government to take this matter up and see that these people get justice. They may be kept out of that money for three or four months yet. I believe in some cases the Auditor General has not done anything with these accounts, and lie should be spurred up. If he would cut off a few pages of that book he presents to the country every year, I think it would be well for all parties concerned.


Mr. W. F. McOREARY (Selkirk).: I want to corroborate the statements made by the hon. member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis). Since I have been in this House, I have received probably seventy-five or one hundred letters about the great delay in paying these election accounts. I do not think it is necessary for the Auditor General to pare down the accounts in the manner in which he does. Take, for instance, my section of the county, if a man is living along the Red river and has to report to the town of Selkirk, he has to go to a bridge or ferry to cross the Red river to get down to the town of Selkirk, yet he is only allowed mileage from the polling booth to the town of Selkirk, in a direct line. As one man said : I don't know how he expects me to go in a straight line unless I swim the river. The result has been that some of those same parties who have acted as returning officers or deputies and have been requested recently to act as enumerators, have refused to do so on two grounds : first, because their accounts are pared down to almost nothing, and secondly, because they have not been paid the small amounts to which they were entitled. I understand also that some of
the enumerators in British Columbia have refused to act on account of the great delay in paying the small accounts they were entitled to.


Frank Oliver: I wish to add my testimony to that of the hou. member for Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis) and the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary). In the district which I represent there are cases where accounts which were earned in the early part of November are unpaid yet, and, so far as I know, may lie for four months more before they are paid. The result is that the credit of the government is below par because of the non-payment, and the government is already being compelled to pay higher prices and to make payments in advance for census work that they would not have if these election accounts were paid in proper time. I wish to emphasize the fact that the people of this country do not know anything about the intricacies of the methods of payment out of the treasury. They know thev do certain work, they know that the government of Canada is responsible for the payment, and they look to the government and to their representatives in parliament to see that they are paid honestly. I say that when payment is delayed for four months it is absolute dishonesty, and the people will hold to account those who are responsible for that dishonesty. If the routine is such that these payments cannot be made more promptly, then the routine ought to be changed. If the fault can be located in the person rather than in the system, then certainly the person should either be changed or reformed. It is intolerable that the representatives of the people in this parliament and that the government should be put in such a disgraceful position before the electors of this country, as to seem to be defrauding honest men out of their honestly earned money, and deferring payment for a period extending from four months to an interminable time.


Mr. J. M. DOUGLAS (East Assiniboia).: What these lion, gentlemen have said in reference to the Saskatchewan, Lisgar and Alberta is equally true of the constituency that I have the honour to represent. Day after day I have received complaints in reference to this matter. I do not wish to occupy the time of the House further than to insist strongly that something should be done to facilitate the public business. If the Auditor General has not time to do the work he ought to have an increase in his staff, so as to enable him to overtake the work of the country in proper time.


Mr. A. T. THOMPSON (Haldimand and Monck).: Lest the House should think that this grievance is entirely confined to the North-west Territories, I wish to say that my constituents are suffering similarly. I had a letter the other day from one of them
in which he asked the very pertinent question as to whether or not the government had become bankrupt, and I was glad to be able to write back to him and assure him that we had a surplus of $8,000,000.
Some lion. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.


Mr. BENNETT.: Tell him to draw on it.


Andrew Thorburn Thompson: I asked my constituent to have patience for a little while longer, but I would point out to the government that the grievance is a real one, and should be removed.
Mr. ,T. McGOWAN (Centre Wellington). I wish to call the attention of the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Fisher) to some complaints sent to me in connection with the tuberculine test of cattle going into the United States. I understand that the minister has been informed of these complaints by letter. Formerly the test was applied by local veterinary surgeons in different parts of the province, but now Mr. Stubbs has been appointed veterinary surgeon for the whole province, and he is located, or supposed to be located, in Toronto. My informants state that it takes about four days to make the test, and those gentlemen who live in my constituency, Messrs. Watts, Groff, Richardson, Armstrong, Lindsay and others, who are men of wnat I might call continental reputation as shorthorn breeders, are put to great inconvenience. They sent their cattle to. the World's Fair, and to other places, and they wish to have local veterinary surgeons apppointed to make the test. They are sending cattle every day to the United States, and the present system is most inconvenient to them. I will send this letter over to the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Fisher) so that he will see the nature of the complaint.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney Fisher).: There has been a misapprehension in the country in regard to this matter of the testing of cattle for export to the United States with tuberculine. It will not be out of place for me to explain in a few words what has occurred. Some years ago an arrangement was made with the veterinary authorities of the Department of Agriculture at Washington in regard to the quarantine between the two countries. At that time it was decided that animals would have to be tested with tuberculine when passing across the frontier either way, for breeding or dairy purposes. It is only these animals that are subjected to this test.


Mr. McGOWAN.: It is these they complain about.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The Washington authorities accepted the test made by veterinarians not named by the Department of Agriculture at Ottawa. Difficulties arose, and complaints were made

in regard to some of these certificates. Further complications arose as between the Washington authorities and the Imperial authorities in regard to the importation from the old country, both direct and through Canada, and the Washington authorities made a new regulation of their own department, by which all animals coming into the United States from Europe or Canada for breeding or dairy purposes, had to be tested by a United States veterinary official. They refused any longer to accept the certificates of the English or Canadian veter-inaries. This was evidently going to largely block the trade, and an effort was made to secure some mitigation or improvement in regard to that regulation. After some communication with the Washington authorities, I was invited to go to Washington to discuss the matter personally. About three weeks ago I did so, and I came to an agreement with the American authorities by which they would accept certificates of the permanent officials of the Department of Agriculture of Canada, but no other Canadian veterinarians. As a consequence of that, I have been naming to them the official veterinarians of my department. In order to facilitate the export trade and to enable the breeders in Ontario to secure the test of their cattle, when sold to the United States, as promptly as possible, I have added one or two names to the former official list of our permanent officers. Should it be necessary to add more, I shall he glad to do so, but as this test has just commenced, at the present moment there is undoubtedly a little congestion, and there are a larger number^ of demands at the present time than will likely to be the average in the future, because a large number of men were waiting to ship animals to the United States until this arrangement was completed, and the United States customs officials were ordered to accept the certificates of our veterinaries. In addition to Mr. Stubbs, I have sent two officials of mv department into western Ontario to take up this work, and they are to-day doing the work as rapidly as possible. I am satisfied that when the congestion which has occurred in consequence of the block has passed away, the officials of the department will be able to overtake the work, and do it as rapidly as the breeders require. If not, I shall be happy to name one or two more veterinaries. so as to accomplish the object of the arrangement, and to facilitate the trade in our througlibred cattle with the United States as much as possible; a trade v Inch is of the utmost importance to the farmers of this country.


John McGowan: Would the hon. minister not appoint some local veterinaries ? These gentlemen ask for the appointment of Mr. Armstrong, a veterinary surgeon of Fergus. He is a good Reformer, and there should be no objection on that account.


Mr. FISHER.: 


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I can only appoint the permanent officials of my department, and by the arrangement with the United States, I am not permitted to appoint men at random throughout the country.	'


Mr. WALTER SCOTT (West Assiniboia).: Coming back to the subject that occupied our attention before the hon. member for Centre Wellington spoke, I wish to emphasize the protest that has been made respecting the cutting down of these election accounts by the Auditor General. The injustice perpetrated with reference to the cutting down of the accounts for travelling expenses must be clear to every member of the Blouse when the rule is applied to men travelling in a country like the North-west, or indeed any part of Canada, because men passing through the country cannot possibly follow the lines set down by the rule. The cutting down of the other expenses connected with the elections by the Auditor General works considerable injustice, I believe. Several protests have reached me, not so much from my own district, but from other constituencies in the Territories, and also from Manitoba. The gentlemen in the printing business, who worked for the government in connection with the elections. allege that their accounts have been pared down to the extent of 30 per cent, or 40 per cent in some cases. The Auditor General holds that he is not responsible for this, because he is guided by the schedule which has been fixed by the King's Printer. If that be so. then I have to say that the schedule stands in need of revision. Ever since elections have been held there have been many complaints on this score in western Canada. A few days ago, at a meeting of the Western Canada Press Association. held in the city of Winnipeg, this matter was taken up. Tbe meeting was a very representative one of the press of Manitoba and the North-west Territories ; and it was found that all the printers who had to do with the last election had reason to complain on this account, and the association unanimously passed a resolution, strongly protesting. I would ask the members of this House, and the government, to take cognizance of the matter, and endeavour to see if there is no possible way to bring influence to bear upon the Auditor General, or upon the King's Printer, or upon the person who is responsible for these delays in the payment of the accounts, and for the improper and unjust paring down of the accounts.


Thomas Osborne Davis: I wish to say a few words in reference to the question before the House


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The hon. gentleman has already spoken.


Thomas Osborne Davis: But I wish to speak on a different matter.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The only question before the Chair is the motion, that I do leave the Chair, and as the hon. gentleman has spoken to that motion, he has exhausted his right to speak again.


Mr. X. CLARKE WALLACE (West, York).: A very remarkable state of affairs is threatened in this country. We are told by the hon. members who have spoken that the government will not be able to procure officers to carry out the census enumeration, the supporters of the government in those constituencies having apparently lost all confidence in the government, and therefore the work which is to be started on the 1st of April, will be indefinitely postponed, if it is ever done at all. We will have to inquire what the government are going to do about the matter. It has just been suggested to me, and I think it is a very good suggestion, that there is an army which was recently in North Bruce, and if it is impossible to get census enumerators otherwise, those artists might be very easily induced to go out there and undertake any kind of duties which the government may require of them.


Thomas Walter Scott: Is the hon. gentleman at .present in communication with any of the members of that army ?


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I am not in communication with any of them, but I know their public history very well, and I know that when any kind of work for the government requires to be done, they are at the service of the government to an unlimited extent.


An hon. MEMBER.: They do not count very well. They did not in North Bruce.
Mr-. MARCIL (Bonaventure).	I would
like tlie hon. memberthere is any crookedness in an account, the Auditor General lays it aside, so that he may first dispose of those that are straight. These people were appointed deputy returning officers and returning officers. They thought they were going to have the whole public chest at their command, and that all they had to do was to dip in, and put in enormous bills for services supposed to have been rendered. There is a law regulating what returning officers shall be paid, and what deputy returning officers shall be paid. The Auditor General is bound by that law.


Thomas Osborne Davis: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman a question. If he holds that the Auditor General is paring down those accounts because they are crooked, I would draw his attention to the statement made by tlie hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver), that he said he would pay what was right. If he disputes the accounts, let him pay such amounts as are not disputed. That is all we are asking for.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I would suggest that the hon. member for Saskatchewan should buy up the claims. He might find it as profitable as dealing in scrip.


Thomas Osborne Davis: I did not get any scrip myself. The hon. member for West Toronto has it all corraled.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: We know that the Auditor General is performing his duties conscientiously. He has an able and competent stall, who will not be hoodwinked by any bogus accounts which may be sent in, but who will protect the treasury of the country. That is what the Auditor General is there for, and he is doing his duty ably and well, and his course should be endorsed by this House.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: The hon. member can have tlie floor when I get through.


Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure).: I merely want to ask a question.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: What is the question V


Charles Marcil: The question is whether in the township of Arran, in North Bruce, the sole question discussed was not the vote which was given in this House on the coronation oath ?


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: That is a conundrum, and I give it up. The hon. member has evidently been sleeping for a week or two, and has not kept track of affairs. Now, Mr. Speaker, it appears to me that this strike of proposed government officials is a most serious matter. We are told that these gentlemen, who, we will assume, performed services for the country last November. are not yet paid. The Auditor General is, I understand, the watch-dog of the treasury. When he finds crooked accounts, lie does not pass them. If an account is straight, it goes straight through, but when


Thomas Osborne Davis: Does the hon'. member say that he is doing his duty in not seeing that these parties have been paid for five months ?


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: It is as well to be accurate. These accounts have been made up and sent in; but they have not been paid, for tlie reason that they were wrong. The Auditor General sends them back and says that under tlie regulations they are entitled to be paid for services rendered, and nothing more; hut these men were out as electioneering agents. They were the same class of men as those who were gyrating in North Bruce in the recent election, and they thought that they would be paid for services as electioneers in North Bruce.


Thomas Osborne Davis: Chamberlain was not there.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: And now they discover their mistake. Parliament lias no money to recoup them, and now they come to the House with a grievance and ask that the House shall punish the Auditor General,
\ who is performing his duty by protecting

the treasury and trying to deal fairly hy every man who has performed services for the government. If these gentlemen were anxious to have the business settled properly, they would not come to the House and air their grievances here, hut they would go to the Public Accounts Committee, where the Auditor General would be present, and where they could make any charge, and have it fully explained by* the Auditor General in a proper business way. But that is not what they undertook to do, and in that regard they are not looking after the interests of the country. The Auditor General must be ready to defend any account of his or his department, and I have no doubt that if the matter is brought up before the Public Accounts Committee, he will defend and explain his course, and justify whatever may have been done or whatever may have been left undone. So that, If these hon. gentlemen have a grievance, let them go to the Public Accounts Committee and have it fully investigated. These men have not apparently full confidence in that government surplus of $8,000,000. They think the treasury is about empty and that they may never see their money. I think we might reassure them on that point, that the government will always pay its honest debts.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, resolution considered in committee, reported, read the first and the second time, and agreed to.
Tiie MINISTER OF FINANCE moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 114) for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money required for defraying certain expenses of the public sendee for the financial year ending the 30th of June, 1901, and for other purposes relating to the public service.
Motion agreed to, Bill read the first and the second time, and House went into committee thereon.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: I do not wish to delay my hon. friend's Bill, but there is certain correspondence with reference to some items of the public works and some papers with respect to the building of the Canadian exhibition at Paris, which will have to be discussed. I presume there will be no objection to our discussing these matters on other items.


The PRIME MINISTER.: There can be no objection to any question being raised with regard to these matters when the other estimates are before the House.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: Does the $30,000 complete the expenditure for the Paris exhibition ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: 1 think so.
Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: 


INSPECTION OF FRUIT PACKAGES.
[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 32) to provide for the marking and inspection of packages containing fruit for sale (Hon. Mr. Fisher) read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon.
On section 2,
Mr. HENDERSON.: It seems to me that it would be a great mistake to bring a Bill of this character into operation on the first of July next. Not only the men who pack the apples, but the men who make the barrels, should have sufficient time to make themselves acquainted with the provisions of this Bill before it comes into operation. I would suggest that 1901 be changed to 1902.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not think I could accept that amendment. This Bill does not deal at all with the making of the barrels, but applies only to the packing and the making of the packages. Even supposing it did somewhat interfere with the character of the packages, it would be necessary to make the Bill law this session. Practically the same kind of Bill was introduced in this House last year and pretty thoroughly discussed, and the people were warned that legislation of this kind was required. The people interested in the trade have asked that some Bill of this kind to protect the trade and the reputation of our fruit should be introduced.


Robert Laird Borden: I would suggest that this clause be allowed to stand until we have gone through the other clauses, and then decide whether or not the Bill should go into operation the first of July next.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I am quite willing, but in my judgment the proposition to suspend action for another year would be hurtful to the trade, and prevent the advantages resulting which we expect to flow from this Bill.
On section 3,


Mr. SMITH (Wentworth).: I think it was intended that the term ' closed package ' should only refer to fruit in barrels and boxes, and this definition might include fruit in baskets. I would suggest that it be made clear that the term ' close package ' means a barrel, keg or box, the contents of which cannot be seen when the package is closed.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The suggestion is one I would have to consider a little before I accept it. This question of the definition of a closed package has been found one very difficult to solve. The intention of the Bill is that this should apply to packages In which the public purchasing the goods cannot fairly see and judge of the contents without opening the package. The difficulty which
my hon. friend from Wentworth (Mr. Smith) refers to arises from the fact that grapes are sometimes packed in baskets, which, if not opened, hardly show the quality of their contents. That is a point on which I am not able, on the spur of the moment, to give an opinion. But I thought that the whole intent and purpose of the Bill is covered by the definition here given of a closed package. The object of the Bill is to regulate the contents of a closed package, being a package in which the purchaser cannot examine for himself as he purchases, without turning it out or opening it, the character of the contents. I think the words here used fairly cover the definition.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: 1 might point out that in case of a basket with a wooden cover the contents would not be visible, but the cover can easily be removed, so that the purchaser need not be in doubt as to the quality of the grapes.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I think, perhaps, the hon. member for AVentworth has given an accurate description in the form of words he has suggested. Baskets with wooden covers, or mere temporary packages, should not be included under the Bill, because they cannot be stamped and otherwise treated as is provided by the Bill, and it would not be desirable in any case.


Mr. BRITTON.: I am inclined to think the objection is well taken, to some extent at all events, because it will be seen that according to the definition under clause 3, a closed package ' means a package of which the contents cannot be seen or inspected when such package is closed.' The whole question is as to the definition of the word
[DOT]	package,' and some form of words such as that suggested by the hon. member for Wentworth seems to me to cover all that is required. Unless something of that kind is put in, it. seems to me difficulties will arise in the attempt to enforce the law.


Mr. ROSS (South Ontario).: I would support the contention of the hon. member for AA'entworth (Mr. Smith). I am accustomed to handling such packages as he speaks of- baskets of grapes and other fruit covered with a wooden cover and so arranged as to be easily detached. It would be a great hardship in the fall of the year when we are getting hundreds-and still more in large centres where they get thousands and tens of thousands of baskets-to have them called closed packages under this law, and to be made responsible for their contents.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The suggestion of the hon. member for AA'entworth (Air. Smith) is on record in
*	Hansard ' and we can look at it a little more carefully. In the meantime, I would suggest that this clause be allowed to stand. We can return to it a little later on.
On section 4,


Air. PUTTEE.: AA'hen this Bill was introduced, as I understood the hon. minister's explanation, it was the intention to have it apply to the domestic or North-west tra'de, and I would like to know how far this is being provided for under this clause. It seems to me that clause 4 provided only for the marking of packages with the initials, the variety and the grade, the same as is done now in our domestic trade, while clause 6, which calls for the grading, is limited to the export trade.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No.


Arthur W. Puttee: Then I would like to have the matter explained.


The AIINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The intention certainly is that this Bill should apply to the internal trade, but the grades which are defined in clauses 6 and 7 were intended to apply to the export trade and not to the internal trade. We have found by experience that the marking of grades or definition of the class of fruit contained in packages is very difficult. Different packers use words to designate or grade their, fruit. For instance, one gentleman who was present when this Bill was discussed by the fruit growers and shippers, said he always marked his fruit ' Imperial ' and ' selected,' ' Imperial ' being the best and ' selected ' being the next best. Other gentlemen use other names. It was understood that it would be impracticable, without serious injury to the present trade, to require that certain definite marks or brands should be put upon all packages. But, for export, the two definite brands contained in clauses 6 and 7 are suggested. Even these are not compulsory for export, and if one chooses to export under another brand than these, he can do so. Clause 8 will cover this and all other packages, as it provides that the interior of the package shall be of the same quality as the ends or faces shown. It was thought to be unnecessary to define the grades otherwise than in that way. But, for the purpose of encouraging our exporters and to establish definite Canadian grades which shall be known in the foreign markets in the future, we have introduced into this Bill clauses 6 and 7 to give a definite grade with the name ' Canadian.' This explanation, I trust, will show my hon. friend from Winnipeg (Mr. Puttee) that the internal trade is dealt with by this Bill practically in the same way as the export trade -that is, the package must contain a uniform and even quality of fruit similar to that in the exposed portion of the package.


Air. WADE.: I would like to point out that subsection b of this section 4 provides that the name of the ' variety or varieties ' shall be stamped on the package. Under section 7 it is provided that there shall be

only one variety of apples in a package. 1 think, therefore, we should strike out the words ' or varieties ' in subsection b. I may say that I would object to making it compulsory to put the word ' Canadian ' upou the packages. I think that it would be objectionable to the growers and the shippers of Nova Scotia, because they have, so far- and they think for good reason-retained the name ' Nova Scotia Apples,' and their fruit is so known in the English market. They seem to think-and it appears with good cause-that the Nova Scotia fruit is superior. Certainly it reaches the market in superior condition to the Ontario fruit. That can be understood because the Ontario fruit has a long railway carriage, and as fruit is apt to sweat, by the time of its arrival at Montreal. the port of shipment, it is in bad condition. On the other hand the Nova Scotia fruit has only a short railway haul, and is put on board steamers in better condition than the Ontario fruit. Be that as it may,
I cannot see any reason why Nova Scotia shippers should be compelled to change the name of their fruit and call it Canadian.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not think my hon. friend caught what I said in regard to sections 6 and 7. These sections are not compulsory, they are simply a definition of the grades which we would like to encourage exporters to put on their fruit. If they do not wish to use them, they can put any other brand they choose upon their packages. But, even supposing this grade is put on, there is no reason that the word * N.S.' should not be put along with it, and have it shown that the fruit comes from Nova Scotia, just in the same way as a Quebec or an Ontario man might put the words ' Ont.' or ' Que.' along with their definition of ' A No. 1 Cndn.' Then, in regard to the other point which the hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Wade) brought forward, pointing out that the word ' varieties ' was used in subsection b of section 4, and in sections 6 and 7, where they are required to have only one variety, here again clauses 6 and 7 are not compulsory. But, we wish to encourage people who are exporting fruit in large quantities not to mix up varieties of fruit in the same package for the export trade. If a man is sending a considerable number of packages for shipment abroad, it is hardly likely that he would want to put more than one variety in the same package. Therefore, in the definition of what I hope to call national brands or grades, it is required that only one variety shall be put in a package. T may say in this connection, that amongst ' many arguments which have been urged, i both from the old country and in our home ; markets, the desirability of putting only . one variety of fruit in a package has been i strongly impressed upon us. I would not, < therefore, like to see that qualification in' i sections 6 and 7 struck out. While in other ( markets and for other purposes it is neces- I


Fletcher Bath Wade: sary that if there are two or three varieties ' in the barrel, the names of those varieties should be put on the packages.


Fletcher Bath Wade: Would the minister consider it necessary that words should be added to these two sections 6 and 7 so that in addition to the mark ' A No. 1 Canadian,' parties can add the province in which the fruit is shipped ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not think that is necessary at all : providing there is nothing to prohibit it being done, it could be done.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) There is objection to having too many brands on each barrel. I think it is better to confine the Ontario packing to Ontario, and the Quebec packing to Quebec, and in the same way with Nova Scotia. You will then keep the shipping separately.


Mr. GOURLEY.: I agree with the hon. member for Annapolis, that it is essential that we should put on the barrel the place of growth of the apples, and we need not interfere in the slightest degree with the standard. Let the standard be the same fox-all the provinces. I have heard, and I will take the opportunity of bringing it before this House, that last summer the Nova Scotia apples at the Paris exhibition were mixed up with Quebec apples, and the prizes that went to Quebec were owing to the superior excellence of the apples of Nova Scotia. We want to avoid that difficulty in future.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.: I would remind the committee that we should discuss section 4 instead of sections 6 and 7.


William Forsythe McCreary: I have already spoken in the Committee of Agriculture on this matter. My attention has been called to it by the Winnipeg Board of Trade, and also by several merchants in my own county. A great deal of attention is paid in this Bill to the export trade. I submit that one of the most important localities for the consumption of applies from the eastern provinces are the territories west of Lake Superiox-. As a matter of fact, most families up there use from one to ten barrels of apples every season, and we find that the first two or three rows of apples on the top of the barrel are all right, while the apples below are useless. There are some very unkind remarks made xip there against the fruit-growers of the east on account of the way in which they pack their a'pples. We supposed they all came from Ontario, but I am surprised to know that a large quantity comes from Nova Scotia. I trust for the sake of Nova Scotia, they are not guilty of the charge that we lay at the door of the Ontario people. Great care should be taken in passing this Bill. I am sorry I had not sufficient time to send a copy to the various wholesale men in Manitoba and the Territories, in order to get
tlieir opinion upon it. I want strongly to impress upon the committee the importance of passing this Bill in such a way that it will be of some use to us. I do not see why a rule somewhat similar to that which we have established for wheat may not be applied to fruit. As you know, wheat is graded, not only for Manitoba, but for the entire Territories ; it is graded No. 1 hard. No. 2 hard, No. 1 Northern, No. 1 rejected, and so on, and I do not see why apples should not be graded in the same way, without designating the province that they come from.
Mr. LaRIYIERE. I am glad that the minister has introduced this measure, because I believe it is a step in the right direction. I agree with the remarks of my hon. friend from Selkirk (Mr. McCreary), when he says that in the west we are made the victims of men without conscience in the east with regard to the way they pack fruit. I have in my hand a letter dated March 7, which was sent to me by the Winnipeg Board of Trade on this very question, and which I will read :
Winnipeg, March 7th, 1901. Mr. A. A. C. LaRiviSre, M.P.,
House of Commons, Ottawa, Ont.
Dear Sir,-I have the honour, by direction of this board, to ask if you will kindly, on their behalf, urge upon the government, and the Minister of Agriculture in particular, in whose department we understand the matter rests, to, if necessary, enact such legislation as will secure the public from fraud in connection with the packing of apples in barrels for sale by the barrel.
There is probably no article of consumption in Manitoba in connection with the sale of which such fraudulence prevails, as in connection with the apples shipped to Manitoba, from Ontario principally. It is well within the mark to say that it is the rule rather than the exception when a consumer purchases a barrel of apples to find dishonesty exhibited in the packing, and there appears to be no recourse against the fraud perpetrated by the ordinary packer. It is extremely rare that the apples in the middle of the barrels are anything like those placed at either end, with the evident intent of deceiving the consumer. The necessarily high freight paid on apples from Ontario to Manitoba adds greatly to their cost to the consumer, and the latter pays high prices for apples which, through the fraudulent packing, he does not actually receive.
This board suggests that there should be either an inspection of apples barrelled for sale, or that a penalty should be imposed on any packer who does not brand the barrel at the time of packing with the class of apples so barrelled, and his name and address, and such packer should also be open to severe penalties in case he brands the barrels as containing a higher grade of apples than they actually contain, or with the intent to defraud.
Thousands of dollars are lost to the people of Manitoba in connection with the sale of apples in this province, and this board considers that it is the duty of the government to protect the people in this matter.
Yours faithfully,
(Sgd.) C. N. BELL,
Secretary.
Although provisions are made here whereby the barrel should be stamped, I think the law is not yet stringent enough to put a stop to other frauds that are committed, not by the packers, but by middlemen. After a barrel has been stamped and after the proper brands of apples that it contains have been removed, there is nothing to prevent parties from replacing those brands with fruits of an inferior quality while the stamp remains on the barrel. With regard to tobacco, there is a provision whereby the moment a box that is stamped is opened the box has to be destroyed. I would not go to such an extreme with regard to the barrels containing apples, but at the same time I think the law should be much more severe than is here proposed against those who commit this fraud which to my mind is equal to a straight robbery. A mere fine of from 25 cents to $1 is ridiculously low to punish such a fraud. It is an ordinary case of robbery, and I believe should be punished as such. I hope that the Bill will he so amended later on as to make more stringent provisions against such frauds. This Bill is a step in the right direction, and I hope that the minister will see that it is made more perfect and more complete in order to attain the object in view.


William Ross: I am glad to hear from hon. gentlemen commendations in regard to the principle of this Bill. I think that perhaps the most important clause is section a of clause 4 : that the initials of the Christian name and the full surname and address of the packer shall he given. That makes the packer responsible. A man cannot put his name on a package of fruit unless the contents are just what they are represented to be. I believe that the suggestion of the hon. member (Mr. LaRivitSre) is a good one. When tobacco is sold, the packages have to be destroyed, and would it not he well to provide that after the contents are taken out of a barrel of apples all the marks on the barrels should be obliterated so that they cannot he used again. That would be a further protection to the public. The moment a barrel of coal oil is emptied we have to scrape off the marks of the inspector, and I think the same rules should be applied to apple barrels. I believe that this Bill will prevent a good deal of fraud, and I am glad the minister (Hon. Mr. Fisher) has introduced it. I represent a number of shippers in my riding, and have had letters from them in regard to this Bill. I am informed by one of the largest shippers that when the apples come to be sold in Liverpool, for all quantities over twenty barrels a sample barrel is turned up, but for all quantities under twenty barrels the head is just taken off the barrel and they are sold by the sample of the top of the barrel. Consequently the cull apples are shipped in quantities of less than twenty barrels, and the top of the barrel only being

seen, numerous frauds have been perpetrated upon the English buyers. If the number of barrels is over twenty, the whole of the fruit in one barrel has to be exposed and the rest are guaranteed like the sample. On quantities less than twenty barrels, no name is necessary, and the shipper himself does not put the brand on, them, so that fraud results. I think the pith of this whole Bill lies in the fact that the man becomes responsible for the fruit he puts in the package.


Robert Laird Borden: So far as I understand the scope of the Bill, I do not think there is any necessity for a provision that the marks should be erased, because they are not put on the barrel by the inspector, but by the man himself, and therefore if you compel him to erase the marks he can put them back again the next moment. If the marks were put on by the inspector the suggestion of the hon. gentleman would be in point.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. gentleman (Mr. Borden) is quite right. There are no marks intended to be put upon the packages by the inspector except where the packages are found to be fraudulently marked, and then the inspector stamps it ' falsely marked ' and erases the original marks. In the case of coal oil barrels the marks are put on by the inspector, and of course they must be erased, but in this Bill there is no provision of that kind, and I do not think it is necessary. I do not think this Bill can deal with the use of packages over again. It would be a straight case of fraud without regard to the marks at all, and the package would be liable to the penalties under section 5. Although the person may not be himself a packer, still if he offers a barrel falsely marked for sale he is liable, and I think that clause covers the case. In reply to my hon. friend from Provencher (Mr. LaRiviere), I may say that I received the resolution of the Winnipeg Board of Trade after this Bill had been printed and distributed, and I was very glad to know that the Winnipeg Board of Trade entirely endorsed the principle of the Bill. A Bill of a similar character last year was pretty thoroughly discussed, and so I did not think it necessary to go into details when I moved the second reading. I shall be very happy to receive any suggestions which may tend to improve the Bill.


Fletcher Bath Wade: It appears to me from a perusal of the Bill, that if the packer or shipper puts upon the package the designation of the fruit and calls them ' A No. 1,' and it turns out they are inferior, that there is no penalty.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There is under clause 5.


Fletcher Bath Wade: I do not think that would cover it. Subsection c of section 4 says that you should put the designation of the Mr. ROSS (South Ontario).
grade of fruit; section 6 says that if he is going to mark ' A No. 1 ' or 'A No. 1 for Canadian export,' they must be of a certain quality, and the description is given of that quality. The same provision is made in section 7. Then, under section 8 there is a penalty for the violation of any of these sections.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Section 8 applies to the whole Bill.


Fletcher Bath Wade: It does, but all section 4 requires him to do is to put the designation of the grade, and it does not say anything as to what the grade shall be. There are two classes of people we wish to protect by this Bill. One class is the honest packer and shipper, a very important class and the class that I am interested in ; the other is the purchaser. Now, the dishonest packer can comply with the provisions of section 4, and ninety-nine purchasers out of one hundred would not know that it made the slightest difference in a barrel of apples being marked ' A No. 1 ' or ' A No. 1 Canadian.' The Bill does not go far enough in that respect. I believe that every man who ships a barrel of fruit should not only put the designation of the grade of fruit, but that we should also designate by this Bill what shall be ' A No. 1 ' and ' No. 2,' and so on. Then there is some protection to the shipper and some protection to the purchaser. I trust the minister will see his way clear to amend the Bill in that direction.


Mr. KAULBACH.: I am pleased that the Minister of Agriculture has introduced a Bill of this character because it will be a protection to the fruit-grower, a protection to the packer, and a protection to the purchaser. Clause 4, which seeks to guard against fraud, is a. very important one. I was sorry to learn from the hon. member from Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) that a poor quality of apples was shipped from the east to the west, and I think he said that these apples were of Nova Scotia production.


Fletcher Bath Wade: He was only joking.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: Well, he Included Ontario, but he may have referred more particularly to Nova Scotia. Now, I am correct in saying that Nova Scotia is renowned throughout the world as having the very best character of fruit; and I will corroborate that statement by informing this House that at an exhibition in the city of London some years ago, among the many varieties of fruit there exhibited, the Lunenburg fruit took the first and gold prize, and Nova Scotia fruit has continued to maintain its reputation ever since, The county I have the honour to represent is engaged very largely in fruit-growing, and its soil and climate are well adapted to produce fruit such as I have described. Annapolis is also known as a fruit-growing
county, the fruit of the Annapolis valley being particularly renowned, though it does not surpass the fruit produced in the county which I have the honour to represent. I think it is well, as the hon. member for Annapolis says, that we should mark the grade of apple on the barrel, giving the kind of apple and the name of the packer, so that if any fraud is committed by anybody, the packer will be the person who will be looked to for redress. I feel that every safeguard should be thrown around the fruit-grower, and this clause should not pass until every part of it is carefully considered.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I want to point out that the grading of an apple does not depend on the mere name of the apple. Thus, a No. 1 Gravenstein of Ontario is not the same fruit as a No. 1 Gravenstein of Nova Scotia. I come from an apple-growing district myself, though it is not so extensive as the Annapolis valley ; and I think we ought to listen to each other with respect in regard to these matters, in order to learn the capabilities of Canada. In the Annapolis valley there are two ranges of mountains, one on either side, which in the day time protect the fruit from winds, and secures great heat, which is essential to give growth and colour to the fruit; and the nights are cool, which give the apple flavour and juice. In Nova Scotia there is an ideal climate for growing apples of the finest quality. In Ontario you have hot days, in which the apple stews to death, and hot nights which dry it up ; so that in the morning you have an apple without a particle of flavour or juice. Therefore, if I went into the London market and asked for a No. 1 Gravenstein apple, and if it were not a Nova Scotia apple, I would be imposed upon. The apple should be distinctly branded ' Gravenstein No. 1, Nova Scotia,' so that the Londoner will know when he buys it that he is getting a beautiful, highly flavoured apple, which is an ornament to any table in the world. I want to differentiate the apples of Nova Scotia from the apples of Ontario ; for the two are as different from each other as daylight is from darkness. If you want to grade the apples, you must make your standard honest and just ; but you will not be doing so, if.you call them all Canadian alike. Call them apples No. 1 Nova Scotia, and apples No. 1 Ontario, and then a fool in London will know which to buy.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach: The hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Gourley) has taken this House quite by surprise by showing himself to be a fruit scientist. I fully endorse what he has said, for a very great deal is to be said for mild days and cool nights in producing flavour and colour in apples. If those points could be carefully considered by those who profess to be scientists in the matter, and a record kept with regard to the proper growth and care of apples, I 75
think it would be very valuable, and an educator to fruit growers.


Mr. McBWEN.: I think our friends from Nova Scotia should have one end of the barrel labelled Nova Scotia, and leave the other end for the rest of Canada. I would like to ask what will be done in the case of apples of the same variety which are differently named by different people.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It is well known that there are certain varieties of apples which pass under one name in one place and under another name in other places. Two or three names are sometimes applied indifferently to the same variety. But where we require the name of the variety to be given, there could be no exception taken to a name being used which is generally known in the locality. As a matter of fact, I understand fully the situation which the hon. gentleman mentions, and the fruit-growers and shippers who discussed this matter thoroughly, did not consider that there would be any difficulty in that respect.


William Ross: I understand that nearly all apples are bought by men who have their storage warehouses, where they select and repack the apples. I know that is the case with apples for export; I do not know how it is with regard to the local trade. But in case hon. members should get the impression, from the discussion which we have had, that it is only in Nova Scotia that good apples are grown, I beg to say that Ontario holds the palm for apples, especially the county which I have the honour to represent, and more particularly the southern part of it. There we grow the choicest and finest apples it is possible to produce. I think it is important that we should have a regular Canadian brand, whether the apples come from Ontario or Nova Scotia, or any other province, and let them be required to come up to a high standard. I cannot see any objection to have included in the brand, in smaller letters, the name of the province from which the apples come, which would serve all practical purposes.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not know very much about the apple trade, and I do not profess to know anything about the relative merits of Nova Scotia apples and Ontario apples. But I happened to notice in the report of Prof. Robertson of last year or the year before, the statement that apples from Nova Scotia are sold by the name of Nova Scotia apples in London, although they are, of course, just as much Canadian apples as apples from Ontario or Quebec, which are sold as Canadian apples. If the apples from my own province have a reputation by that name, I think it is well that the advantage of that fact, whether it is little or great, should be preserved. Would the Minister of Agriculture



permit me to bring to bis attention a matter which does not seem to be very definitely dealt with in his Bill, though I am perhaps mentioning it a little out of its order ? By sections 6 and 7 it is provided that the apples of grade A No. 1 Canadian shall have certain characteristics; and then by section 8 it is provided that ' no person shall sell or offer, expose, or have in his possession for sale, any fruit packed in any package upon which is marked any designation of size, grade or variety which falsely represents such fruit.' The difficulty I see about the Bill is this. The hon. gentleman has defined what No. 1 Canadian shall be, but he does not make It necessary that the brand No. 1 Canadian shall be used by any person. Suppose the apple-growers of Ontario see fit to mark their apples No. 1 Ontario, and the Nova Scotia growers No. 1 Nova Scotia, you have not any provision stating what apples so marked' shall be. Would it not be desirable to have in this Bill, a general definition of No. 1 apples, such as is given of No. 1 Canadian in clause 6 ? Unless you have such a clause, it will be easy for any one to avoid the provisions of the Act without exposing himself to any penalty.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: In the Bill introduced last session, it was intended to have a definition of a grade, which should be made compulsory for the export trade. When, however, the scope of the Bill was enlarged, and made to embrace the internal as well as the export trade, it was found difficult to give a definition on account of the number of brands used in the internal trade. Some fruit-growers have brands which they wish to continue using, and which it would be impossible to define. Were the trade and the public to consent to the wiping out of all the present brands, and the adoption of a new standard, which, would apply to fruit in the same way as the standard brands apply to grain, that might be a good thing, but the trade at large is determinedly opposed to it. It would be too great an interference with the established usages of the trade to be practicable.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: Could you not pass a law and make it applicable in two years from now ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not think that such a law would be acceptable to the trade. There are certain men in the trade who have to-day established brands worth thousands of dollars to them, because they have been honest in their trading and packing, and the people have confidence in those brands. And it would be absolute robbery to prevent these people from using those brands. It might take years for the traders, who were compelled to give up their established brands, to re-establish their reputation and charac-Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).
ter under a general brand. Sections 6 and 7 are not compulsory. They are simply suggestions, in the hope that in time-and the sooner the better-our export trade will, as much as possible, be covered by some such brand. I am not particular as to the character of the brand, but I should be glad to see our export trade carried on under brands of which the name ' Canadian ' formed an integral and important part. It was in this view that I suggested the word ' Canadian ' in preference to ' N.S.,' ' Ont.' or ' Que.' I do not want to enter into any controversy as to the quality of the apples in Ontario and Nova Scotia. My own opinion is, that the province of Quebec, coming between the two, furnishes the best fruit.
I do not think it would be practicable to define what should be first quality grade and second quality grade, but I do think that section 8 covers the point, as far as any general provision possibly can. If there is a designation put upon a closed package, which would indicate superior excellence, and the fruit was found inferior, I believe the packer would be liable to the penalties under section 9 for having violated the provisions of section 8. It is just as necessary that section 8 shall be complied with as section 4. If any of the provisions of these two sections are evaded, the parties guilty would be liable to the penalties in section 9.
This Bill has been in the hands of the Justice Department and been carefully examined, and the impression which 1 certainly had is, that the penalties under section 9 applied to the provisions of sections 4 and 8.


Robert Laird Borden: The difficulty is, that it would be almost impossible to convict any one of an offence against section 8. You would require expert evidence, and would have half a dozen saying a particular barrel was No. 1 and others saying it was not.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. gentleman may notice that in the eleventh line of section 8 there is this provision :
-and it shall he considered a false representation when more than 15 per cent of such fruit is substantially smaller in size than, or inferior in grade to, or different in variety from, the marks on such package or the faced or shown surface of such package.
That does not quite cover the point, but it would be very difficult indeed for a packer to act as my hon. friend thinks he might, and not come under this particular section.


Mr. CLANCY.: 
Mr.   BOSS@South Ontario: If we are to accept the suggestion of the hon. member for Bothwell (Mr. Clancy), I think the suggestion of the hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Gourley) should be adopted with it, that all the packers should be allowed two or three years for the adoption of this ' A No. 1 Canadian ' brand. I was speaking recently with a member of the firm of J. O. Henry & Sons, of Oshawa, who are among the largest shippers of apples, who said-and this view is confirmed by the statement of other shippers with whom I have had correspondence-that they have a registered brand of apples with which they have been doing business in the old country for about a quarter of a century. The brand is well established, the goods are exactly as represented, and they sell on their merits. Hon. members can easily see that this firm have built up a business, and that this brand is a valuable asset which they cannot afford to part with at short notice. I plead for that class of people. If the suggestion of the hon. member for Bothwell is taken, time should be allowed to the shippers to accommodate themselves to the new order of things. To take any other course would be to subject individuals to great hardship.


Fletcher Bath Wade: There is a good deal of force in what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Boss, Ontario) says. I do not think that anybody wishes to subject any of the shippers to hardship. In fact, the minister gives that as his reason for not making the suggested change. I cannot agree with the hon. member for Colchester as to not bring-7oi
| ing this Bill into force at once but deferring it for three years


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I did not refer to the whole Bill, I referred to this part of it.


Fletcher Bath Wade: Yes, this part of the Bill. But there has been great clamour for some legislation in this direction; and, while I am opposing this feature of it, I wish to state that the producers and shippers feel themselves under a debt of gratitude to the hon. minister for the interest he has taken in this matter.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: I think the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wade) did not understand what I said. What I desired was that if there are people who are ready to co-operate in this matter they should be given three years to put themselves under the general rule.


Fletcher Bath Wade: I understood the hon. gentleman (Mr. Gourley). I am informed that in Ontario they are using such grades as ' selected,' ' choice selected ' and so on. In the province of Nova Scotia, these are not the designations used. We used the terms ' No. 1,' ' A No. 1 ' and so on. This national grade that we are trying to establish by this Act is really taking our grading and tacking to it the word ' Canadian.' That is the thing we object to, because we have-as I said before for good reasons- kept the name of our apples distinct from the Canadian, because we claim they are better, and the reports of the department shows they are better. It would be a hardship to the producers of Nova Scotia to lose a portion of their distinctive mark, just as it would be in the case of the private shippers of Ontario. These honest packers have used the name honestly and have made it valuable, and I desire to retain for them the distinctive mark which they have thus made valuable. There may be only 1 per cent or half of 1 per cent of the packers dishonest, but their dishonesty will affect the whole trade. To bear out my argument, I might refer to the evidence given before the Agricultural Committee in 1899. I find it there stated that apples were shipped from Ontario by the ss. Castilian, which was wrecked on the shore of Nova Scotia. These apples were purchased in Yarmouth. The packages were marked 'selected' and 'choice selected,' but the purchasers were disgusted at the gross deception practised for the apples were, for the most part, mere windfalls. Three or four layers on top were fair, but the rest were windfalls and nubbins. The man who used this brand ' choice selected ' did not make it of much value to himself. The report shows that Nova Scotia apples are better than those from Ontario. I do not care whether they are or not. The people think they are better, and the purchasing public on the other side think so. Therefore, our mark has a distinct value, and if we wish to put the highest

grade on our barrels, we ought not to be compelled to change the distinct mark.


James Clancy: I do not understand that it is the purpose of the Bill to deprive the Nova Scotians of the use of the word ' Nova Scotia.' There is only one Nova Scotia, and these packers retain the full benefit of the name.


Fletcher Bath Wade: I cannot agree with the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clancy). If he will look at clause 6, he will see that if we wish to use the highest mark, what Is called the national mark, we must put upon the barrel ' A No. 1 Canadian.'


James Clancy: Then, add ' Nova Scotia.'


Fletcher Bath Wade: But that would not be to retain our distinctive grade marking. This is something new and something different. We should be dropping out the prominent feature of our mark which is ' Nova Scotia,' and putting in the place of it ' Canadian.' I would like to see this BUI acceptable to the parties interested so that it might be generally adopted, but, if we change our grade mark to ' Canadian ' it would not be generally adopted.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: If the grade called ' Nova Scotia ' is so much superior to the grade called ' Canadian,' all you have to do is to brand your barrel with the word ' Nova Scotia ' and leave out the other.


Fletcher Bath Wade: No, because the mark is ' A No. 1 Canadian.' The purchaser seeing that says :	I won't buy that, because it is
from Ontario, but I will look for something marked 'Nova Scotia.' If there is any virtue in the fact of apples being grown in Nova Scotia, we have a right to retain that distinctive mark.


Mr.   BOSS@South Ontario: I think the hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Wade) will see when we come to section 6 that, If these apples are marked ' A No. 1 Canadian ' they can be marked also ' Nova Scotia ' or 'Quebec' or by any other name underneath.


Fletcher Bath Wade: But we want ' Nova Scotia' on top.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: It is entirely unnecessary to put on the word ' Canadian.' The barrels can be branded ' A No. 1 Nova Scotia.'


Fletcher Bath Wade: Then, we cannot take advantage of the national brand.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: But the hon. gentleman says that it is of no advantage- that the Nova Scotia apples are better.


Fletcher Bath Wade: I say it is an advantage to have a mark on the barrel to show that the apples come under this law and are in accordance with the provision of section 6. But there are two classes of apples going into the English market-the Nova Scotian and the Canadian. You should not ask


Fletcher Bath Wade: us to lose the benefit of our distinctive trade mark under which we have been selling.


Mr. COCHRANE.: If the apple exporters of Nova Scotia want to retain their distinctive mark, there is nothing in this Bill to prevent it. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Wade), it seems to me, wants to have Nova Scotia apples marked ' A No. 1 Canadian ' and so get the benefit of that, and then sell them as Nova Scotian. I got the information from Prof. Robertson in the Agriculture Committee this year that the Nova Scotia apples that they blow about so much were not as good last year as the Ontario apples. The season before last was a very peculiar season for apples in Ontario, and our apples were not up to the usual quality. The hon. gentleman must not think that all the apples grown in Canada are grown in Nova Scotia.


Fletcher Bath Wade: I did not hear the hon. gentleman (Mr. Cochrane).


Matthew Henry Cochrane: I am not blaming you because you don't hear; the trouble with some men is that they do not want to hear anything, because they are so conceited in their own opinion that it would not make any difference if they did hear. The hon. gentleman's argument is that he wants Nova Scotia apples to go into the British market as such, because they are of better quality than any others in Canada. There is nothing in this Bill to prevent him from doing that if he wants to. I am above the idea of saying that the Ontario apples are better or inferior to the Nova Scotia apples.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: What we want is the truth.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: If the hon. gentleman does not know more about law than he does about apples, I would not wish to have him defend me. I might be hung.


Seymour Eugene Gourley: You might deserve it.


Matthew Henry Cochrane: 
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: After careful investigation, I have found that the practice is quite different in different sections of the country. There are some parts where the farmers do pack the apples; there are some parts where the shippers have agents, and there are other parts where there are local buyers who put the apples in cold storage and pack them afterwards. It is therefore difficult to lay uown a definite rule in regard to the practice of the trade. It is as difficult and perhaps as unfair as to make comparisons between the quality of the fruit in different parts of the country. One season the fruit from one section is exceptionally fine, and gets a higher price than from another section, while that condition may be reversed the next year. I may tell my hon. friend (Mr. Wade) that last season the Nova Scotia fruit did not do as well in England as the Ontario fruit Rid, although the year before the Nova Scotia fruit was far and away ahead of the Ontario fruit.


Fletcher Bath Wade: What about the other years ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I have not gone into that, but the assertion made by my hon. friend was rather sweeping. The 6th and 7th clauses of the Bill are so purely suggestive that I am afraid they have interfered with the discussion of the' Bill.


Mr. SCHELL.: This Bill establishes a rule by which you shall sell these apples. Who is going to determine that these apples are up to the standard ? For a number of years I was a shipper of apples and along with those interested with me in the western part of Ontario we shipped probably more than any other firm in that part of the country. Are the Canadian people going to


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: The hon. gentleman does not quite grasp the intention of the Bill, or else his fears are unfounded. This grade is to be judged in Canada, and the Bill provides regulations for the enforcement of the Act. The intention is that some inspectors shall be appointed. The inspection is not compulsory. It is not intended that every package of fruit marked should be inspected, but at the same time the Bill provides that any package of fruit which is marked in a certain way and does not come up to the definition, will lay the packer open to a penalty. The intention is to appoint as many inspectors as may be necessary to carry out the intentions of the Act, and they will be authorized by the Act and by the rules and regulations laid down by order in council to at any time they see fit inspect the fruit which comes under the operation of this Act, and condemn it or not, according to its quality and packing. So far as the reception of the fruit on the other side is concerned, this Act makes no practical difference. No doubt to-day our Canadian shippers as a rule consign to be sold at auction, their fruit is judged there and is sold on its merits. But unfortunately during the last few years such a large amount of fraudulent packing has been found in Canadian fruit that the simple fact that fruit in closed packages comes from Canada, hurts its market value in the old land unless it is marked by a brand which is known there to the trade to be honest. That being the case, we wish to establish a brand, or grade, or a reputation for the Canadian fruit. I suppose in future as in the past Canadian fruit will go forward by the same trade methods. This Bill does not deal with trade methods at

all, and if It goes forward by the present trade methods, we hope that the people of Canada who pack fraudulently will be so deterred by the provisions of this Act that they will cease to pack fraudulently. I am sorry to say that the condition of affairs is such to-day that it will take some time for our Canadian fruit to recover its reputation. The reputation of an article once destroyed is hard to re-establish, and I regret to say that to-day the reputation of the exported fruit of Canada is destroyed. Therefore, our people will have to submit to the disadvantages which some of them have brought upon the whole country for a time, until the honest and reputable men of the fruit trade have so establisned its reputation again that it will be popular in the foreign market.


Jacob Thomas Schell: There is one thing that I think should be put in the Bill more definitely. I agree with the necessity for some legislation in this direction. As to whether the barrels be branded Nova Scotia fruit, or Quebec fruit, or Ontario fruit, is not material. As the minister says, the fruit will be dealt with on its merits in the old country. But I think there should be a declaratory clause in the Bill stating that this Act refers to the branding or the quality, or stating that it does not extend any further than Canada.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No Act of ours could make it extend any further than Canada.


Jacob Thomas Schell: This is a point that I have noticed. Suppose I am in a section of country where the fruit is not up to the grade, and I may know it, still I may brand that fruit No. 1 Canadian. I may sell that in the old country as No. 1 Canadian, and they may claim that it is not No. 1 Canadian. There should be some way of providing that an impostor would not be able to use that brand for his own benefit at the expense of the honest shipper.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Of course the Bill can only apply to Canada. Take for instance the cheese trade. We have a well-known brand called the * Finest Canadian cheese,' branded or stencilled on a great many cheese sent out of Canada, and even those that are not stencilled are sold as finest Canadian. It is a well-known grade in the trade, and when a man buys by cable Canadian cheese he expects to get what is known as finest Canadian, and if, when the cheese arrives In England, it is not up to the grade, he complains and cuts on the price. That must obtain in regard to fruit or anything else. Our grain trade is in the same way ; what we consign to England has certain brands upon it, and when it arrives in England, if it is not up to the quality which is understood in the trade by that brand Mr. FISHER.
or grade, there is a complaint and difficulty about payment. I do not think it is possible to overcome that difficulty. It is the universal law of trade, and I do not believe that we can make any provision in a Bill which can overcome difficulties that may arise in that way. But by creating certain definitions of grades we may facilitate the trade, and prevent misunderstandings which, in the past, have been more frequent than they would be under the provisions of this Bill.


Jacob Thomas Schell: There is this difference. In this Bill there are penalties provided.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Those only apply to Canada.


Jacob Thomas Schell: Suppose they do, the fraud cannot be followed back in the old country. Now, in the brand, ' Finest Canadian cheese,' the minister speaks of, there is no government measure in reference to it. These matters are established usages of trade. But in this Bill you propose to impose pains and penalties and create a criminal offence, whereas the other way is the usual custom of trade.


James Clancy: I was going to ask tne Minister of Agriculture if he cannot see his way to fixing some standard. Clause 4, I think, is meaningless as to attaching any penalties to a Canadian who sends fraudulent packages to England. There is no punishment for inferior apples in section 4.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Section 9 provides for punishment.


James Clancy: For instance, a man puts up apples under section 4, according to the grades which may be marked. But there is something still lacking. When the variety is stated there is no provision that the apples should be a good class belonging to that variety, they may be wanting in size, because the size does not require to be stated. Therefore, no punishment is provided for packing wrongfully apples in any other manner than is provided for in section 4. Section 8 does not provide a penalty, because there is no provision as to the size required. I am told that the majority of the whole bulk of the fruit shipped from Canada must go under section 4.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Section 8 applies to it also.


James Clancy: Section 8 applies so far as the class of fruit is designated. No size is mentioned in section 4, no standard is fixed. If you fix a standard of one, two or three, then that will mean something.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I would say that while there is no definition of grade in section 8, the words ' or in which the faced or shown surface gives a

false representation of the contents of such package,' coyer all cases of fraud.


James Clancy: There may not be fraud at all.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: Improper packing ?


James Clancy: It may not be improper packing according to clause 4.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: I do not agree with my hon. friend. The point of this Bill is to see that in a closed packing the package is marked so as to avoid those cases in which large fine apples are put at the ends of the barrel, while the middle is filled with poor and inferior fruit.


James Clancy: Suppose the fruit is uniformly of an inferior grade, and is marked X ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: That is a different case. Then it would be for the inspector to say, or in case of a suit it would be decided by the evidence of witnesses, whether the brand was fairly indicative of the contents of the package. 1 grant, frankly, that there is a certain looseness in the provision, and that it would be better to have sections 6 and 7 applied to the whole trade ; but, I have felt very strongly the representations of the men engaged in the trade, and I did not feel that it was advisable to insert in this Bill provisions which might operate unjustly, or hamper the trade unfairly. My hon. friend from South Wentworth (Mr. Smith), who was a member of the committee of fruit-growers who were consulted in regard to the drawing of this Bill, and who was present when I met a large representative gathering of fruitgrowers and shippers in Toronto, and discussed the whole matter with them, understands why it is that the Bill to-day does not contain the requirements which it contained last year, when I introduced it first, and when I undertook to propose such a law as my hon. friend is now indicating, but which, after further consultation with those engaged in the trade, I believe now. would be unnecessary and inadvisable.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I submit that the supposititious case proposed by the hon. member for Bothwell (Mr. Clancy) will never occur. He assumes that a man would ship apples to the old country marked X, representing nothing. No man would ship apples expecting to receive a reasonable price for them, if "they had no mark or a mark representing nothing. He would naturally use some mark indicative of the contents of the barrel.


Mr. GILMOUR.: If there were any known grades of apples, we could understand that it would be possible to designate those grades. But there are no known grades.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE There is no doubt there is that looseness in the Bill, which is entirely due to the requirements of the trade. If my hon. friend would move that there should be a definite legal grade, and that no other mark should be put on the packages, no doubt the committee would consider that; but, I am not prepared to move it at this stage.


James Gilmour: I am speaking of what might be considered a grade, but the use of which would not render a man liable under section 8.


Fletcher Bath Wade: Could not a clause be inserted providing that when any brand is put on the barrel indicating that the apples were of the highest character, it should be in accordance with these two sections ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: It is evident that we cannot pass this Bill through the committee at this sitting ; anfl as I understand that it is not desired that there should be a sitting of the House this evening, I would suggest that the committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Progress reported.
The PRIME MINISTER moved the adjournment of the House.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax!. What business is to he taken up on Monday ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: We shall take up this Bill again on Monday, and afterwards go into Committee of Supply.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 6 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, April 1, 1901.