1901-05-10

MONTREAL HARBOUR LOAN.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding) moved :: That the House will resolve itself into committee on Monday next to consider the following resolutions :-

1.	That the Governor in Council may from time to time advance and pay to the corporation of the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal, in addition to the moneys authorized to be advanced to the said corporation by the Governor in Council, by chapter 10 of the statutes of 1896 (first session) and by chapter 47 of the statutes of 1898, such sums of money, not exceeding in the whole the sum of one million dollars, as are required, to enable the said corporation to construct such grain elevators and other terminal facilities as are necessary properly to equip the port of Montreal.
2.	No such advance shall be made unless the plans, specifications and estimates for the works to be performed by the said corporation and on which the money so to be advanced is to be expended have been first submitted to and approved by the Minister of Public Works.
3.	The said corporation shall, upon an advance being made, deposit with the Minister of Finance and Receiver General debentures of the said corporation equal in par value to the advance so made (which debentures the said corporation are hereby authorized to issue), and such debentures so issued shall be of such amounts as the said Minister of Finance and Receiver General determines, and shall bear date on the day when such advance is made and shall be repayable within twenty-five years from the date of their issue, and in the meantime shall bear Interest at the rate of 3 per centum per annum, such interest to be payable half-yearly, on the first day of July and the first day of January in each year.
4.	The principal and interest of the sums so to be advanced as aforesaid, to the said corporation shall be paid by the corporation out of the revenue of the corporation mentioned in section 8 of chapter 10 of the statutes of 1896 (first session), and shall be a charge upon said revenue in the same manner and to the same extent as If the sums so advanced had been borrowed by the corporation under said chapter 10 of the statutes of 1896 (first session).
sequently I am at home and have nothing to do. I have a large family to support, am a Canadian and cannot get work on a Canadian contract let by your government. What am I going to do? A foreigner can come here from the United States if he is a member of the union, then can go to work while I may sit and starve. If we are going to have unions, let us have Canadian ones, and let them be controlled by the government, so that they cannot coerce any man by extortion, but let them be fair and honest in their dealing. I have this day mailed to the editor of the Labour Gazette, Department of Labour, Ottawa, a copy of my grievance. Will you kindly see that it is brought before the proper parties, or before the House, so that I can go to work.
I am yours,
(Sgd.) ROBERT W. SAUL,
Camden East, Ont.
It appears to me that this is a matter that comes directly under the control of the Department of Labour, and I am sure that the hon. acting Minister of Labour, now that his attention is called to it, and his department will, no doubt, have a copy of the complaint, or I can let the hon. gentleman have this letter, will see that justice is done to a Canadian citizen who desires that he shall have a fair show to work on a contract given by the Canadian government. I am sure that there is no stipulation in the contract that will prevent Mr. Saul from having a fair show as a citizen of Canada on the work that is going on to which he refers. I would ask the hon. acting Minister of Labour to look into this matter at once, so that justice may be done to Mr. Saul and to other Canadians who are placed in the same position. It looks to me intolerable that Americans

He said : I beg to say that the subject of these resolutions having been brought to the attention of His Excellency the Governor General, he commends them to the favour of the House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. N. CLARKE WALLACE (West York).: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called, I wish to call the attention of the House, and particularly of the acting Minister of Labour (Hon. Mr. Sutherland), to a letter received by the hon. member for Addington (Mr. Bell). The hon. gentleman was called away from the House to-day. and is unable to present this letter to the House. II will read it:
Camden East, May 10, 1901. To J. W. Bell, Esq.
Dear Sir,-I went to the city of Kingston to work cn the Royal Military College to build an addition, but was stopped by the international union unless I should pay the sum of $25 to join the union. I offered to join if they would take the regular price, but objected to pay $25, con-


Mr. SPEAKER.: If the hon. gentleman wants to enter upon an argument, instead of just simply asking a question, he will have to conclude with a motion.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I do not wish to make any further statement, only to call the hon. acting minister's attention to this matter, and to say that it looks to me to be intolerable that citizens of the United States can come in here and work on that contract, while Canadian citizens are debarred, although they are willing to become members of the union, if that were necessary, under the regular and ordinary conditions. My hon. friend from Lanark (Mr. Haggart) asks why they 'should be compelled to be members of the union. That brings up another subject. A Canadian citizen should not be compelled to be a member of the union, and there should' be, and I presume there are, safeguards placed in government contracts so that any Canadian citizen, whether a member of any union or not. is placed on even terms with any other Canadian, and on better terms than any American citizen.


Hon. .TAMES SUTHERLAND (North Oxford).: Mr. Speaker, I fear that in the Act


Mr. FIELDING.: 487?.

establishing the Labour Department tliei'e is no special provision for dealing with a matter of this kind, but, I may say that after hearing the statement I shall be pleased to ask the officers of the department to investigate the matter, and endeavour to ascertain the facts. If it is possible we will find some way of seeing that justice is done in the case if the facts are as has been stated. My hon. friend (Mr. Wallace) knows very well ; the work referred to is being done under contract and not by the department.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I would like to know what the department is for if it is not to deal with cases of that character.


Robert Franklin Sutherland: I should be very glad to have an Investigation made into the case, and if it can be dealt with it will be dealt with, and report will be made to the Department of Public Works.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: The minister will inform the House as to the result.


Robert Franklin Sutherland: I suppose this was an application to the contractor on the work ?


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I presume the Department of Public Works let the contract for this building, and surely they must have taken precautions that a Canadian is not to be thrown out and a citizen of the United States permitted to come in and continue the work.


Mr. CLARKE.: Is there any evidence of that ?


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: This letter here.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.: My attention has never been called to that state of affairs.



THE AUSTRALIAN COMMONWEALTH.

Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to ask the Prime Minister if he would be good enough to communicate to the House the terms of the congratulatory telegram which I trust he has sent to Australia on the occasion of the opening of the first parliament.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I must inform my lion. friend that we have not received a telegram from the hon. gentleman who represents the Canadian government as to what he stated yesterday when the parliament of Australia was opened. We sent no telegram for the very good reason that we had no information, not even an informal notification, of the day the parliament was to be opened. But we have sent the Hon. Mr. Mulock and I have no doubt he will discharge his duties properly.



VISIT OF THE DUKE OF YORK.

Mr. ROBINSON (West Elgin).: Is it the intention of the government to lay out a programme for the visit of His Royal Highness the Duke of York and Her Royal Highness the Duchess of York, as to where they will hold forth, so that members of this House may have an opportunity of meeting them ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I am sorry to say that I cannot give any information as to this matter. No programme in a matter of that kind could be formulated by the government until His Royal Highness receives some communication of it, and until we know whether it would be acceptable to him or not.



FINANCES OF THE PRINTING BUREAU.

[Stage Direction]
Resolution concerning advances to the King's Printer to enable him to make purchases and to pay wages to workmen, reported ; read the second time, and agreed to.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 137) an Act to amend the Act respecting the Department of Public Printing and Stationery.
Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: Explain ?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: I will be glad to repeat the explanation I gave the other day. We propose to give legal authority to a practice which has long prevailed in this department with regard to the funds necessary for carrying on the work. We have supplied a thoroughly equipped printing establishment, but we supplied no working capital. The King's Printer receives his money from parliament and from the various departments, but while he is waiting for that, as any ordinary business man must wait for the returns of his customers, he has to pay for supplies and wages. Hitherto he has received a credit for that purpose from the Auditor General, but attention has been drawn to the fact that there is no legal authority for that practice and this Bill legalizes it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time, and agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Resolution respecting a further annual allowance to be paid to the province of Prince Edward Island, reported ; read the second time and agreed to.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 138) to provide for a further annual allowance to the province of Prince Edward Isalnd.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENSE (Hon. F. W. Borden) moved third
4S75
[Stage Direction]
reading of Bill (No. 133) respecting pensions to officers of the permanent staff, and officers and men of the permanent militia, and for other purposes.
Mr.   E.@: If. CLARKE (West Toronto). Mr. Speaker, when the House was in committee on this Bill the attention of the minister was drawn to the case of some retired staff officers who asked that provision be made in the Bill to give them some annual retiring allowance. I think the minister was good enough to say that he would give the matter his consideration. As this is the last opportunity in this House to consider the question, and in view of the fact that I have a further communication from a staff officer, I think it is my duty to ask the minister if he has considered the matter, and if he proposes to make any provision to suit the exigencies of the case of the letired staff officers. The gentleman who has written me suggested that a clause something similar to the following might be added to the Bill :
To a staff officer who has been retired before the passing of this Act, an annuity-to date from the time this Act comes into force-equal in amount to half the pay and allowance to which said officer was entitled at the time of his being placed on the retired list.
That, I believe, would he equivalent to giving them half-pay for the balance of their lives. Some of these gentlemen having been turned out without provision being made for them, they are eking out a precarious livelihood, and having served the country in the militia force for many years they think it not unreasonable that the minister, when he is making this provision, should take their case into consideration.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: As I pointed out when these resolutions were being discussed, the officers to whom the hou. gentleman refers have already received the gratuity which belonged to them under the existing regulation. If any special provision w'ere made in this Bill for these cases, I am afraid it would complicate the law to an unnecessary degree. I would prefer to make it a subject of special consideration, and that a short resolution might be introduced which would cover this case if the government-
1 have not yet been able to discuss it with council-feel that it would be right to recommend to parliament some action of that kind.


Samuel Hughes: I am pleased .to see the minister recognizing the rights of a number of the officers who have been retired during recent years. As the minister knows, some officers were retired recently at the age of sixty years, when under the "law I think they might have held on until they were sixty-two or sixty-three. These men would have been subject to the terms and


Mr. BORDEN.: conditions of this Pension Bill if they had not been so retired. I am very pleased that the minister takes the view he does, and is whiling to recognize their claims ; but I also trust that he will take into consideration the propriety of either increasing the pensions of the officers or increasing their pay, as he must admit that they are very poorly paid compared with men occupying ordinary positions in the civil service. Increased pay would secure to them an additional pension on their retirement.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I would again urge on the government the very great importance and the fairness of providing for these men. I believe that those who are more able, from their military experience, to speak on this subject than I am, are unanimous in their desire to have this done, and I am sure that the government in doing so will have the unanimous support at any rate of this side of the House. It appears to me that those men who have devoted the best part of their lives to the service of their country, with all the risks incident to their calling, have a specially strong claim upon the government. All other governments are most liberal in their treatment of men who have devoted themselves to the defence of their country. The United States is particularly generous, and I think we in Canada should show our appreciation of our citizen soldiery by including these few men. I am told that there will be only twelve or fourteen altogether wiio will have the right to participate in the government's justice in this matter, o.nd I would strongly urge the minister and the government to make a grant, and as liberal a one as they can, for the purpose of meeting these few cases.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
House again in committee on Bill iNo. 118) to amend the Yukon Territory Act, and to make further provision for the adnunistva-, tion of justice in the said territory-The Minister of the Interior (Hou. Clifford Sifton).
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The Bill which is before the committee wms considered at a former sitting of the House, and upon the suggestion of some members of the committee three clauses in the Bill were reserved for further consideration. These were the second, the third, and the ninth sections. With regard to the second section, the question was raised as to whether police magistrates should be permitted to practice their profession. After the discussion, I had a conference with the Minister of Justice, and we decided to recommend to the House that the section should be amended so as to provide that police magistrates should not practice at all. That would involve paying them a little more than we

. anticipated, but under all tlie circumstances we are satisfied it is the better course. I therefore propose to move that the second and third sections of the Bill shall read as follows-:
2.	Such police magistrates shall hold office during pleasure, and shall be debarred from practicing their profession while holding office.
3.	The salary of the police magistrate for Dawson shall be $2,400 per annum, and that of the police magistrate of White Horse shall be $2,400 per annum; and such salaries may be paid out of any unappropriated moneys forming part of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Canada. In addition to the said salaries, such magistrates may be paid such living allowances as may be determined from time to time by the Governor in Council out of any moneys appropriated by parliament and available for that purpose.


Robert Laird Borden: I think it is wise that the magistrates should be debarred from practicing, and be paid something more. 1 agree with the amendment. But there may be some technical difficulty about filling in the blanks for the amounts of their salaries.


Mr. SPROULE.: This Bill was Introduced in the Senate, and there was no resolution of this House with regard to it. The Senate has no authority to introduce a money Bill, and we cannot pass it without a resolution.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no objection to the second section, but the third section had better stand until a resolution is introduced.
Amendment to section 2 agreed to, and section as amended agreed to.
Section allowed to stand.
On section 9,


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The other section that was reserved is section 9, which reads as follows :
There shall be an appeal to a judge of the territorial court from the final judgment of the police magistrate in any civil case, where the amount in dispute, exclusive of cost, exceeds one-half the maximum sum to which the jurisdiction of the police magistrate extends.
I move that that be amended to read as follows :
There shall be an appeal to the territorial court from the final judgment of the police magistrate in any civil case where the amount in dispute, exclusive of costs, exceeds $100. The appeal in such case shall be heard on the evidence taken before the police magistrate, and the judgment of the territorial court shall be final.
tory to litigants if it is to the territorial court than to a single judge.


Robert Laird Borden: I did not quite catch whether by the amendment proposed the appeal is to be simply on the evidence taken before the magistrate.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, not a new trial.


Robert Laird Borden: Does the expression ' territorial court' result in the appeal being heard before two judges or one ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Two judges.


Robert Laird Borden: I should rather be inclined in cases involving more than $500, let us say, to have given a further 'appeal to the Supreme Court of British Columbia, but it may be that that is not necessary. I do not feel quite sure that it is. The section, as it stands at present, restricts the right of appeal very much more than in the older provinces. In Nova Scotia we can appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada in some cases which do not involve more than $80, but in which a question of law may arise. I am not sure whether we have not too much facility for appeal in that province, and am inclined, on the whole, to not oppose the enactment of the section in the form proposed. If it is found that the right of appeal has been unduly restricted, it may he desirable for parliament, in another session, to give the right in certain cases to the Supreme Court of British Columbia. For the present I would not oppose the amendment suggested.
Section, as amended, agreed to.
Progress reported.



INSPECTION OF FRUIT PACKAGES.

[Stage Direction]
House again in committee on Bill (No. 117) respecting the package or sale of certain staple commodities.-Hon. Mr. Bernier.
The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE (Hon. M. E. Bernier).: There was an amendment proposed by the hon. member for Wentworth (Mr. Smith) as an addition after subsection 2 of section 4.


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@Mr. Macdonald: The amendment is as follows
That immediately after subsection 2 of section 4 of the Bill the following subsection be added :
3.	Every box of berries or currants offered for sale in Canada shall be plainly marked on the side of the box, in black letters at least half an inch square, with the word * short,' unless it contains- when level-full as nearly exactly as practicablefa) at least four-fifths of a quart, or
(b)	two-fiftbs of a quart.
4.	Every basket of fruit offered for sale la Canada, unless stamped on the side or cover,
I have given some consideration to that clause, and I think the amendment which I propose will work very much more satisfactorily than the one provided under the clause as it stood before. What we desire is to give an easy and inexpensive method of reviewing the judgment of a police magistrate, and the appeal will be much more satisfac-

plainly in black letters at least three-quarters of an inch deep and wide, with the word ' quart ' in full, preceded with the minimum number of quarts, omitting fractions, which the basket will hold when level-full, shall contain, when level-full, one or other of the following quantities :-
(a)	fifteen quarts or more ;
(b)	eleven quarts, and be five and three-quarter irches deep, perpendicularly, inside measurement, as nearly exactly as practicable ;
(c)	six and tw'o-thirds quarts, and be four and five-eights inches deep, perpendicularly, inside measurement, as nearly exactly as practicable, or
(d)	two and two-fifths quarts, as nearly exactly as practicable.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It seems to me that this would apply only to square and not to round baskets.


Mr. SMITH (Wentworth).: There are no round baskets made in Canada except some half-bushel baskets for peaches. This does not apply to them, but it will secure uniform measurements for square baskets which will be an advantage in packing a car.


Mr. INGRAM.: I have received a letter from a commission merchant complaining of the bill, and suggesting that It should be amended to read ' every basket of fruit sold to consumers in Canada.' It would then not affect the wholesale or commission men. but would affect only those who sell direct to consumers. My correspondent says that the profit is so small that the trade will be injured by the expense involved if the Bill interferes with the wholesale men.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The result of that would be to allow the commission man to unload on the retailer a lot of baskets which it would be illegal to sell.


Andrew B. Ingram: They buy in bulk.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: No, as I understand it, they buy in large quantities in baskets. If this Bill is passed it should apply to all.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: The commission man simply acts as the agent of the producer, and would not be responsible.


Mr. ROSS (Ontario).: This Bill should pass in some form. Since the discussion the other night, it has occurred to me that it might be desirable to delay the operation of the Bill until next year, because the season is upon us, and the basket stock is nearly all made. But the principle of the Bill is all right. The trade in small fruits should be put upon such a footing that those who are engaged in it may know exactly what they are buying.


Mr. PUTTEE.: Notice of this amendment has given rise to considerable concern in the west, especially Manitoba. I am notified by the Winnipeg Produce and Grain Exchange, and by the board of trade that Mr. MACDONALD.
if this becomes law it will practically stop us in Manitoba from getting small fruits. Nearly all our small fruits must come from the other side of the line. In many_ cases they come considerable distances, and it is necesasry that they should be placed on the market immediately after arrival.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Will the hon. gentleman explain in what way it will injure the Manitoba dealers ? I feel satisfied it will not affect them in the slightest degree.


Arthur W. Puttee: I have not the advantage of being thoroughly acquainted with the business, but the Winnipeg Produce and Corn Exchange write to me on this subject as follows :-
We beg to state that the Winnipeg Produce Exchange are satisfied that the Bill is all right as far as Canadian small fruits are concerned. The small fruits handled in this province are principally imported from the United States, and the different .states, say Oregon, Kansas, Texas and Wisconsin, all use different sized boxes. For the small amount of business done with Canada the exporters in those states would not consider it worth while to mark the boxes according to this Bill, and it would be impossible to have the boxes marked after they arrive at their destination, as the fruit would suffer in so doing.
All small fruits imported from the United States are sold on their merits, there is no guarantee of size of package, they are not sold by weight or quantity, but simply sold on sight. This business with the states does not clash or come into competition -with Canadian fruits, as the former are out of the market when Can-dian fruits are ready to come In.
It seems to me the amendment of tlie bon. gentleman would be altogether antagonistic to the trade in the west. If the amendment read that all fruits packed in Canada should be subject to these conditions that would probably overcome the difficulty-if that would satisfy the Ontario trade.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I shbmit that the representations made by the Winnipeg Produce Exchange are made under a misapprehension of the facts altogether. There are no berries coming in from the states in boxes smaller than that provided by this Act, and unless they are smaller they do not require to be stamped.


Arthur W. Puttee: But it is probable that the hon. gentleman is not acquainted with the trade from the western states.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: Yes, I am.


Arthur W. Puttee: These gentlemen are in the business and handle small fruits, and they state otherwise.


Mr. BLAIN.: I am in favour of a uniform size of packages, but I see a weakness in the proposed clause. The idea in this Act is to have in use in Canada one uniform
4881	MAY 10, 1901	4882
size of basket for strawberries. If you adopt that clause and a basket is found short of that size, it shall be stamped short, and then you are legislating to put upon the market very many different sizes of baskets. For example, a man brings in ten baskets of strawberries; if five of these are found short of the regulation size, the law provides a stamp must be put upon the box as short. It may be that these five short vary in size themselves, and if you apply this legislation to them you legislate for the whole number, and you would not by this legislation accomplish the end of putting upon the market a uniform sized basket. I think the committee will probably catch my idea. If those that are marked short are not all the same size, they all receive the same application of the law. If one is ten berries short and another is twenty berries short, they are both stamped short alike. Then the next day these will go upon the market as legalized and still there will be many different sizes of baskets.


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: There is not the slightest danger of any basket being put upon the market marked short, as the seller would know very well that he could not get anything near the value for it. It is only to provide against the possibility of a person having a few baskets over, and offering them under this Act if it goes into effect, that there is any necessity for this subsection at all. This is a copy of the Act of Massachusetts, and the Act of New York. The boxes in those states are one-fifth larger than the boxes used in Canada, anything less than that is marked short.


Richard Blain: I am in favour of the Bill if you strike out that portion of the clause which says : a basket that is short of size shall be marked short. I would be in favour of providing that if the basket was found to be short it should be taken away, that the basket should be discarded, and not allowed to go upon the market at all, and that any smaller basket should not be marked at all.


Mr. HENDERSON.: I would like the minister to state to the House, as I asked him to do when the Bill was last up for consideration, whether the capacity of the proposed standard, four-fifths of a quart, is greater or less than the box that has been in use for the past thirty or forty years in Ontario. Ilf it is materially larger or smaller the House should feel some hesitation in supporting the amendment. I can only give my assent to the amendment when I believe that no material change is made in the standard. We do not want to disarrange trade, we do not want to get away from what we have been doing for so many years, and which has worked so well. I do not object to crystallizing into law a practice that has prevailed for such a long time, but I do
not want our people to be subjected to a penalty if it should chance that a box they are using and have been using should vary slightly from the standard that is to be adopted. I want the minister to take the responsibility of stating to this committee whether the box used in Ontario is greater or less than the standard that is now proposed. I may say that I made a calculation myself, measuring the top of the box as four inches and three-quarters, the bottom of the box as four inches square, with a sloping depth of two and seven-eighth inches. As I stated to the committee the other evening, I make the contents of the box which has been used for such a long time about three-quarters of one cubic inch less than the standard proposed by the amendment introduced by the hon. member for Wentworth (Sir. Smith). I asked the minister to have that calculation revised, and if I was wrong I would like to be corrected.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: As suggested by the hon. member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) yesterday, I had a measurement made of a box he was good enough to send to me. The result of the calculation made by an officer of my department was as follows: The berry box which was examined was found to be 19-100ths of one cubic inch greater in capacity than that proposed in the Bill. That is to say, the box is larger. I am not in a position to say that the box which was sent to me is a sample of the boxes generally used for fruits in Ontario. All I say is that the measure was taken as accurately as possible, and I give to the' committee these figures.


David Henderson: The boxes which 1 gave to the hon. minister as samples were obtained by me from one of the largest box factories in the province of Ontario, and no doubt the box that he has calculated the capacity of is the regular box that is used throughout the greater part of Ontario. I think there is no doubt about that. Now, the difference between the two calculations is made in this way. It is rather difficult to determine the exact size of a box. I admit that all these boxes are not exactly the same size. They are made very hurriedly and perhaps a boy will make as many as four or five per minute, and hon. gentlemen will readily understand that they are not made with the exactness that would measure out as neatly as measuring quarts or portions of gallons. I obtained from the manufacturer of these boxes the sizes. The top is 4 j inches square, the bottom is 4 inches square with sloping sides 2J inches in depth. The Department of Inland Revenue has made its own measurement and it has measured the top as being 4 9-10 inches, or [DOT]15 of an inch more than the measurement I gave. The bottom is measured at 3T9-20
4SS3

inches instead of 4 inches. That is all the difference, but this slight difference makes a difference in the case as stated. Instead of the box being $ of an inch less than * of a quart, according to the hon. minister's measurements, he makes it, I think. 19 more than *tlis of an imperial quart. The difference is very little, and the difference that we have in the calculation is accounted for by the difference in the measurements.


Arthur W. Puttee: I would like to know if the hon. minister has any information as to the sizes of boxes used in different parts of the country, or the sizes of boxes that are imported into different parts of the country. It will be a very serious matter if this amendment Is going to interfere with the trade in the west, not having any small fruits of our own and practically having to import them all.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: I can tell the hon. gentleman (Mr. Puttee) that I do not know what boxes are used in the United States or where fruits are shipped to Canada, nor do I know that the box, a sample of which was handed to me, is a fair sample of the boxes used for this kind of fruit. I know, as a matter of fact, that 1 have seen boxes of less dimensions than that which was shown to me, but I cannot vouch for the size of the boxes usually used for fruit coming from the United States or used throughout the Dominion.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Macdonald).: Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt subsection 2 of section 4, as amended ?


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I have an addition to these subsections to propose which is as follows :
That subsections 3 and 4 of this Act shall come into effect on the 1st of February, 1902.
It would be unwise to bring this Act into force immediately as there is a very large number of boxes and baskets on hand.
. The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE. We will insert this amendment later on.
Section, as amended, agreed to.
On section 6,	'


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: I propose to change subsection 2 of section 6 to read as follows :
Every manufacturer or importer who neglects to comply with the provisions of this section shall, upon summary conviction, be liable to a penalty of not less than 25 cents per ball, and every manufacturer or importer of binder twine which is not of the length per pound which is stamped upon the ball, shall, upon summary conviction, be liable to a penalty of not less than $1 and not more than $25 per ball, and all such twine deficient in quantity shall be confiscated to the Crown; provided that no deficiency in the number of feet contained in the ball shall be deemed a contravention of this


David Henderson: section unless such deficiency exceeds 5 per cent of the length stated upon such stamp.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It may be a safeguard to have that} provision there so as to prevent parties from sending out binder twine deficient in length, but there is not one in a thousand who will unravel a ball of twine to measure it, because if he does so, he will never be able to use it on his machine again.


Mr. STEPHENS.: I would like to ask the hon. minister where this twine will be inspected, and who is going to inspect it ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: The weights and measures officer, if any shortage is reported to him, and he is called upon to measure it.


George Stephens: It will only be inspected when it is reported to him ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Yes.


George Stephens: Will there be any inspection of this twine at the factory ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: No.


George Stephens: Or at any place before it is sold to the consumer ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: No. If any one has a complaint, and lays it before the proper officer, the inspector, or the deputy inspector of weights and measures, will have an inspection made.


George Stephens: It is my opinion that the proper thing to do would be to inspect the twine at the place where it is manufactured, and in the case of imported American twine, it should be inspected while in bond.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: The previous clauses of this Bill were incorporated last year in the Bill presented by the then hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Frost), who, I understand, is a practical man, being a farm implement manufacturer, and also an importer and seller of a large quantity of binder twine. The effect of the law cannot yet be determined, because the Bill only came into effect last October. When the Bill was introduced the idea was to protect the farmer against being imposed upon in buying twine which was not of the length represented. My hon. friend (Mr. Stephens) will see that it is impossible to inspect the twine at the place of manufacture. We do not exclude binder twine imported from the United States, and it would not seem possible that a Canadian officer could cross the line and inspect binder twine in the United States factories. There are two provisions in the Bill : one which imposes a penalty on the party who neglects to put a stamp on the ball, and the other providing a penalty on the manufacturer or importer of binder twine when the correct length as required by law is not stamped on the ball.

After careful examination we tliouglit that, for the present at least, this was the only way of protecting the" farmer against these frauds in the selling of binder twine.


George Stephens: This twine should be inspected in the bags. After a bag of twine is emptied out it is open to any person to change the tags, but if the bag were opened and that twine inspected in the bags, then I think some of this danger would be avoided. After the bags are opened and the twine taken out, it is very easy for a person so disposed to change the tags and then make a complaint that the twine is not right, and thus get an innocent person into trouble. It would avoid a great deal of difficulty if the twine were inspected in the bags.


Mr. CLANCY.: It seems to me that that would make it utterly impossible to have a proper inspection at all. The Bill provides that Canadian manufacturers must put a stamp on each ball, and the length of feet in it. That is a protection against our own manufacturers, and if the United States manufacturers hope to capture the Canadian trade they must comply with all the conditions that our people have to comply with. My hon. friend (Mr. Stephens) is a practical hardware man, but he seems to anticipate some difficulties that are not likely to arise. It would be bordering on folly for a man who purchases twine, and is glad to have the number of feet he pays for, to change the tag, and then make a complaint against the seller for the mere sake of having him fined. I do not think we need be in the least alarmed about that. My hon. friend for Kent knows perfectly well that it would be impossible to attempt to inspect all the twine in bags. We must cast the responsibility upon the manufacturer and the seller rather than upon our officers, by asking them to do work which it is impossible for them to do. My hon. friend (Mr. Stephens) will find that the Bill is quite workable, and that his objection is not so serious as he anticipates.


Mr. HEYD.: Before whom is this information to be laid against the manufacturer and importer ? Must it be done with the consent of the' inspector of weights and measures in a particular locality, or can it be done before any justice of the peace ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: If the purchaser thinks that the ball of twine which has been sold to him does not contain the proper quantity, he may apply to any weights and measures inspector and get a certificate, that after inspection there was a deficiency in the length of the twine.


David Henderson: Why should he not go directly to a justice of the peace and lay an information in the ordinary way for an infringement of the law? Otherwise the enforcement of the law would be very clumsy.
I see nothing in the Act which compels the complainant to apply to the inspector of weights and measures. To my mind, the procedure would be very simple. If you find a ball of twine without a tag, the maker is liable to a penalty of twenty-five cents for each ball, and if the length is not stamped on that tag, he is liable to a penalty of from $1 to $25. I would think that an aggrieved person should be allowed to lay an information before a magistrate in the ordinary way and have the case tried. I think this Act affords a splendid protection [DOT] to the agriculturists of this country, for I have no doubt that in many instances, particularly in the case of imported twine, they have been imposed upon.	-


George Stephens: I completely agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Henderson) that this is a very good law if it can be made workable. If a man goes out in the country and opens a bag of twine he may have another tag in his pocket, and he may be disposed to place that other tag on the ball, The twine is 650 feet long, we will say, and he would put on a tag saying it was 450 feet long, and then he might go around and say it was not the proper length. He takes that ball of twine to a magistrate and has the man who sold it to him fined. It is not the fine that the merchant dislikes ; it is the disgrace to his business. If it is found that he sold a ball of twine supposed to run GSR feet to the pound, and it only measured 45R feet, people would say that he was dishonest in all his transactions. I see a danger there, and there should be some way of remedying it.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I think all the dangers which the hon. member for Kent is suggesting are imaginary. He knows perfectly well that such a thing could not happen, for this reason. The ball of twine measuring 650 feet is pure manlla, and is stamped as such. Even without the stamp a ball of pure sisal could not be mistaken for manila ; and if somebody transferred the stamp from one to the other, anybody could detect it at once. There is no possibility of the danger which the hon. member for Kent suggests. I think it is an admirable proposal that every ball of twine, whether imported or manufactured in Canada, should be stamped with the length per pound. If one dealer sells at 10 cents a pound and another at 121 cents, the purchaser can easily reckon which is the cheaper, for if the 10-cent twine is 450 feet to the pound and the 121-cent twine 650 feet, the latter is the cheaper, and the purchaser knows exactly what he is doing. It is a protection to the purchaser and the honest dealer. There cannot be a transference of the tag. Suppose a dishonest man wanted to do so, where would he get the tag ? He could only transfer a tag from one ball to another, and he would be no gainer by doing tiiat. because if he put a manila tag on a ball of sisal, he would only disclose the dishonesty of the

transaction. There is no danger in the proposal at all.


William Ross: There is a large cordage factory at Dartmouth which manufactures a lot of this twine, and it goes west. Suppose that two or three of these tags were dropped off in transit, what is to he done in that case ?


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The balls are all put up in bags, and the tags cannot drop off.
. Mr. STEPHENS. The hon. member for West York (Mr. Wallace) says one can easily detect the difference between one kind of twine and another. The difference has only to be 5 per cent to make a man liable. One ' could not tell a difference of 10 per cent unless he is a good expert, and it is very doubtful if even an expert could tell it. He could tell sisal from manila, but he could not tell sisal from mixed sisal and manila, nor from New Zealand hemp. With regard to changing the tags, the hon. gentleman asks, where would you get the tags ? The country is full of tags in harvest time, and there would be no trouble in getting them. Besides, many of the tags come off the balls while they are in the bag. so that it would not be certain that there would be any tag on a ball when it is taken out of a bag.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: The reason I asked before whom the information could be laid and at whose instance, is that a difficulty might arise between rival manufacturers. In the city where X live we have two binder twine manufacturers, and they do not object to this particular clause. It is one of the clauses by which we are trying to make people honest by Act of parliament. We are trying to protect the farmer against the dishonest trader. The difficulties in the working of this Bill are entirely underestimated. The skill necessary to detect frauds of the kind aimed at is not the possession of the users of binder twine, and it is very easy for a rival manufacturer to destroy the reputation of another. Therefore, I am glad that information cannot be laid promiscuously or without the consent of the inspector, who I fancy will inquire into the matter to ascertain whether a fraud has been committed or not. You cannot tell the twine of one manufacturer from that of another ; you cannot tell a 500-foot ball from a GOO-foot ball ; it requires an expert to do so. I look forward with considerable satisfaction to the fact that this law will give the farmers a chance. At the same [DOT]time, its application is surrounded by a great deal of difficulty. To give any one power to lodge a complaint against a manufacturer or a merchant without a thorough inspection by the inspector of weights and measures, would render a man liable to have his reputation as an honest manufacturer or dealer destroyed at the instigation of a business rival. It is easy to put a GOO-foot Mr. WALLACE.
tag on a 050-foot ball ; and the only way to protect the manufacturers and the dealers is to see that the power to lay an information before a justice of the peace is not in the hands of everybody.


Robert Laird Borden: What provision makes it necessary that there should be a certificate from the inspector of weights and measures before a prosecution can be commenced ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There is no such provision in the Act. If a man charges another with having taken a stamp from one ball and put it on another, the burden of proof falls upon him. If he wants to have the guilty party punished he had better apply to an inspector of weights and measures in order to secure evidence that the ball was opened and measured in the presence of a public officer. Another witness might do the same thing. But there is no provision in the law which compels a man to apply to the officers of the department. He may go before the magistrate and make his case good, if possible.


Robert Laird Borden: I want to make it clear to the hon. member for South Brant (Mr. Heyd) that there is no necessity of procuring a certificate before a prosecution is commenced. It is perfectly clear, as the minister says, that the burden of proving the offence is on the prosecutor. There may be some difficulty, such as has been pointed out by the hon. member for Kent in this respect, that as the facts upon which the transaction depends may in such a case exist only in the knowledge of the prosecutor, and not at all in the knowledge of the defendant, the defendant is to a certain extent at the mercy of the prosecutor. That, however, is not peculiar to this particular provision. It exists with regard to a great many cases under the law, and I suppose the result would be to make a justice of the peace, or any other tribunal before whom a case of this kind is brought, more careful to weigh the evidence and more earnest in seeing that the evidence of the prosecutor is confirmed by other evidence as to which there can be no doubt. But so far as the necessity for any certificate is concerned, that does not exist under the law. Any person can swear that a particular tag was on the ball, or, without producing the ball at all. he may swear that he used it and found it deficient. If he should do what 1 have just suggested, it might discredit his evidence, but it would be perfectly competent for him to attempt it. I desire to make this statement so that there will be no misunderstanding as to the effect of the provision.


William Ross: I quite appreciate the position taken by the hon. member for Kent. The tendency of all

these laws seems at first to harass and embarrass the trader, but in the Revenue Department we have similar laws governing the sales of many commodities of life, such as spices, baking powder, coal oil, tobacco, and all the ordinary things that enter into the grocery business, and even some articles of dry goods. I think it a very good precaution that the length of the cord in a ball of binder twine should be stamped upon the ball by the manufacturer, and that he should be made responsible just as is the man who puts his stamp on a barrel of apples. It should be made imperative on the manufacturers to supply the farmers exactly with the quantity of binder twine they pay for. I am glad to know that it is not in the province of any one to bring an ordinary trader before a justice of the peace for every small infraction of the law, but that the law shall be administered by the Department of Inland Revenue.


Robert Laird Borden: That is not the case.


William Ross: The clause provides that any proceeding under this section shall be taken within six months from the sale of any such balls. When you do not provide that the proceedings shall he before a justice of the peace, are they not to be instituted by the Department of Inland Revenue ?


Robert Laird Borden: No.


William Ross: However, I am quite in favour of the Bill. Let us make it a workable one, which will protect the farmers in connection with the binder twine business.


George Stephens: I would have binder twine inspected the same ns coal oil is. Coal oil is inspected in the full barrel, and binder twine should be inspected in the full bag.


David Henderson: Hon. gentlemen lose sight of the fact that the penalty is not on account of a certain number of feet not being in the ball, but a certain number of pounds. The law requires that the twine should measure a certain number of feet per pound, and not per ball.


George Stephens: Every one understands that.


David Henderson: Therefore, I fail to see the difficulty which the hon. gentleman anticipates. A manufacturer would possibly not make more than three or four qualities in any season, and would simply have three or four tags. Say he makes four brands of twine, he would have four different tags, so that there would be no difficulty in mixing up the balls or in determining whether a tag has been removed from one ball or another. Any man who is a judge could determine whether the
article is pure manila or pure sisal, or an admixture of the two.
If a man takes a pound of pure manila twine and finds it does not measure 600 feet, or such length as the tag indicates, the factory is liable to a penalty of from $1 to $25 for infringement of the law.
I do not see any danger of getting tags from different balls confused one with another, because we could simply refer to another ball of the same quality or to the manufacturer himself to ascertain what length of twine was in each pound. To my mind, the law as now proposed is very simple, and I hope it will be very effective.


Richard Blain: The committee must not lose sight of the fact that this clause was passed at the last session of parliament, and the manufacturers are complying with its terms. It should not be the desire of this parliament to change the law when the manufacturers are actually engaged in complying with it. Surely it is in the public interest that this law, which was fully discussed last year and went into operation last October, should be given a year's, trial before changing it.


Jabel Robinson: I would like to ask the hon. minister in what manner he proposes to have this law put into effect. Who shall be the examiners, the inspectors of weights and measures of the counties or private individuals ? It will be very difficult for a farmer to measure a ball of twine to ascertain its length to the pound, in fact, he almost spoils the ball for his use when he unwinds it, for he cannot get it back into its original shape again. I think inspectors of weights and measures should be instructed to examine the different brands of twine when they come into the country. And, of course, if it is known by the manufacturers that the inspector of weights and measures will be on the watch, they will be careful not to infringe on the law.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: The enactment of the law will have the effect upon the manufacturers of compelling them to make the twine the right length. But the difficulty is that a manufacturer may be unjustifiably condemned through a rival manufacturer falsifying the amount of twine in a ball. That is the only objection I have heard. On such a basis, a manufacturer may be fined by a justice of the peace, and rival manufacturers will advertise throughout the length and breadth of the country that this man has been fined for selling short twine. I do not believe there is a manufacturer in Canada who would offer twine shorter than the standard.


Mr. COCHRANE.: Then, what is the trouble ?
Mr. KEY'D. There is no trouble now. but the trouble will come after the first

year. The difficulty is that the enforcement of the law may result in very serious injustice. I contend that it should not he in the power of every person to enter an action before any justice of the peace, because there would be far more serious consequences to the manufacturer than the mere fine of twenty-five cents for every ball of twine found short.


George Stephens: Is there any provision respecting twine that is held over and not yet sold ? There are a number of dealers that have twine that was made last year and not stamped.


Richard Blain: The Bill will not interfere with that.


George Stephens: My opinion is that imported twine should be inspected while in bond, and twine manufactured here should be inspected before being shipped to the dealer. Then there would be no trouble about stamping.


Robert Laird Borden: Has any amendment been proposed postponing the operation of this section ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: No.


Robert Laird Borden: I think, then, that the question put by the hon. member for Kent (Mr. Stephens) is a very pertinent one.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Every word included in this clause was in the law which came into force on the 1st of October last. The only difference is with regard to the penalty for fraudulent stamping.


Robert Laird Borden: Then, I do not see the point of the observations made by the hon. member for Kent. Does he refer to twine manufactured before October last?


George Stephens: All twine carried over by dealers was manufactured in the spring of 1900, and shipped before July of that year. A dealer ordered, let us say, twenty, forty7 or fifty tons of binder twine, getting in his stock for the season. He did not sell as much as he expected and carried over from two to ten tons. Surely he is not to be deprived of the right to sell that twine. But is it not true that if he sells it, then, under this law, the manufacturer who made it is liable to a fine for everv ball sold ?


Richard Blain: It does not apply to twine made before the passage of the Act.


An hon. MEMBER.: I do not see that.


Richard Blain: There was no law to compel a man to put a tag on the twine prior to October. If, for illustration, twine was manufactured prior to last October, and was put on the market last year and was not sold but was carried over,' the fact that it was manufactured prior to last October Mr. HEYD.
' could be established, and it would not come within the law. That is clear.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: It says : ' Every ball of twine offered for sale ' shall be stamped.


William Ross: But read subsection 2.	[DOT]


Thomas Simpson Sproule: I do not see that that affects it. The Bill applies to the present and provides that twine shall not be offered for sale unstamped, and if it is found not to be up to the standard marked on the stamp, the manufacturer or importer is liable to a penalty.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: At the instance of the factories at Brantford, I wrote to the Justice Department, and they replied that the twine manufactured before the passage of the Act was not subject to the provision of the Act.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not think that that is the effect of this Bill. The provisions of section 6, subsection 1 are perfectly explicit. If twine is offered for sale, it must be stamped. The mere use of the words ' every manufacturer or importer ' in subsection 2 would not affect that. If the facts are as the hon. member for Kent says they are, some provision should be made. In passing, I would ask the minister what change was made in the law by this Bill. He told us some days ago that when we came to a portion of the Bill which made an alteration in the law, he would explain. Now, we have gone all through the Bill, and I have not heard any explanation from him as to any new provisions. Certain amendments have been offered, explained and accepted, but, apart from that, I do not know what change in the law is made, nor do I understand the object of the Bill.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: This Bill was transferred or taken from the Weights and Measures Act and incorporated into the present Act respecting the package and sale of certain staple commodities. In order to show the committee how the law stands as passed last year, I will read clause 3 of the Act, which says :
Upon or attached to every ball of binder twine offered for sale, there shall be a stamp with the name of the manufacturer or importer, stating the number of feet of twine per pound in such ball.
Subsection 2. Every manufacturer or importer who neglects to comply with the provisions of this section shall, upon summary conviction, be liable to a penalty of not less than 25 cents per ball, but no deficiency in the number of feet contained in any ball shall be deemed a contravention of this section unless such deficiency exceeds 5 per cent of the length stated upon such stamp.


Robert Laird Borden: This is exactly the section we have now ?
The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not understand the object of introducing the Bill unless it is to bring it under a different title. It is not necessary to re-enact the whole provision merely for the purpose of putting it under a different department.


George Stephens: I move that these words be added to section 0, as subsection 4 :
This section shall come into force on the 1st day of October, 1900, and shall apply to all binder twine imported or manufactured in Canada after that date.
If that was inserted this Bill would cover all the ground that I am complaining of.


Charles Bernhard Heyd: Is that superseded by this Bill ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: 1 think the hon. gentleman is right. The last clause of the Bill as the law now stands reads as he has stated, and this clause should be added to the Bill.


William Ross: It appears that I was wrong in my construction of the law in clause 3 under section 6. I would like to know to whom any one who is wronged or injured under this law shall apply for redress ?


Robert Laird Borden: Under part 58, prosecutions are taken before a justice of the peace.


Richard Blain: Suppose after this is adopted an importer has on hand a large quantity of twine imported this year, and he has not got the tag upon it. What would be the law in respect to the sale of that twine ?


George Stephens: I move that these words be added to section 6 as subsection 4 :
This section shall apply only to binder twine imported into or manufactured in Canada after the 1st day of October, 1900.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: I move :
That the provisions of section 6 shall apply to all binder twine imported into or manufactured in Canada after the 1st day of October, 1900.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: There is something of an anomaly in having one clause or an Act come into force at one time and the general Act at another time.


Robert Laird Borden: I think it is quite in order to make this amendment for the pui-pose of carrying out the purpose of the Act of last year. The corresponding section in the Act of last year provided that it should not come into force until the 1st of October. On the 1st of October it came into force and applied to binder twine offered for sale in Canada. The hon. member for Kent (Mr. Stephens) desires to preserve the provisions of this section. For the purpose of doing that, he says that the provisions of this section shall apply to all binder twine imported, or manufactured, in Canada after the 1st of October, 1900. In doing that it seems to me that he is carrying out the intent of the Act of last year and I regard the amendment as a proper one to make.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: With the permission of the committee we will go back to section 3, which was adopted the other day, and make a change which was suggested to me. The section, as it now reads, is as follows :
3. Every barrel of salt packed in bulk, sold or offered for sale, shall contain 280 pounds of salt, and every such barrel of salt sold or offered for sale, shall have the correct gross and net weight thereof marked upon it in a permanent manner.
The only change that I propose to make will be in regard to salt in bags. The clause that I propose will read as follows :
Every barrel of salt packed in bulk, sold or offered for sale, shall contain 280 pounds of salt, and every such barrel or sack of salt sold or offered for sale shall have the correct gross weight thereof, and in the case of a barrel, the net weight also marked upon it in a plain and permanent manner.


Mr. HOLMES.: For the information of the committee I may say that this is an amendment to the Weights and Measures Act that was passed by the House last session, and after it had passed the House it was thrown out by the Senate, on the ground, apparently, that it was unworkable. I may say that the law has been since 1888 that all barrels of salt shall have the net and gross weight stamped upon them. At that time it wa's customary for the trade to ship salt only in barrels, but in the course of time salt has been shipped in sacks as well. It is brought into the country and shipped in sacks at the present time and the manufacturers of salt are desirous that the sack shall be branded, not with the net weight, but with the gross weight of salt supposed to be contained therein. This provision last year had the full endorsatiou of the manufacturers of salt in the Dominion of Canada. It met with their approval, and was cordially endorsed by the then hon. Minister of Inland Revenue. The trade sack of salt Is supposed to contain 200 pounds. I was informed last year, and I understand the information holds good this year also, that salt has been put on the market in sacks containing considerably less than 200 pounds. The amendment is entirely in the interest of the consumers of salt. The arguments that have been made to us this afternoon, bearing on the sale of binder twine, to a large extent, hold good in reference to the sale of salt. The manufacturers of salt simply ask that it shall be required that a sack of salt shall have the gross weight stamped thereon. I do not think T need say anything further because

the subject was fully discussed in the House last session. There are some hon. members of the House who were not here last session and who may not) be familiar with it, and for their benefit, I would state that the only change in the Act, which has been on the statute-book since 1888, is the inserting of the provision that a sack of salt shall have the gross weight stamped thereon. Provision is already made in the Act for the shrinkage in salt, so that there is no need of any fear upon that score. The Act is in the interest of the honest manufacturer of salt, who desires that he shall not be placed at the mercy of a dishonest dealer who will put a sack of salt on the market ostensibly weighing 200 pounds, but which in reality weighs considerably less. Therefore, as the proposal is eminently in the interest of the consumer, I would like to see it placed upon the statute-book. I hope in doing this we shall not run counter to the Senate. The Senate threw out this provision last year, but with their increased enlightenment I hope they will be willing to endorse it this year.


William Ross: I would like to concur in the remarks of the hon. member for West Huron (Mr. Holmes) and to support his contention. I have sold salt ever since I can remember by the barrel and by the bag. We used to get it previously in bags from the old country. It comes from the old country in sacks weighing as much as 180 pounds, some 1G0 pounds, and some as low as 140 pounds. The standard for Canadian salt has been made by general consent probably more than anything else, 200 pounds.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: Tn'o hundred and eighty pounds, is it not ?


William Ross: 1 am speaking of the sack which is 200 pounds. It is difficult to sell a sack containing 200 pounds of salt against one which would be imported and which would be very close to 180 pounds. There would hardly be a perceptible difference to the consumer between the two sacks, although he would get 20 pounds less in one than in the other. I can quite understand that the necessity is as great for having the weight branded upon the sacks as upon barrels. I am sure it will be well received by the trade, and it will be a protection to the consumer. I cannot say why the Senate should throw out this amendment as my hon. friend (Mr. Holmes) remarked, except, perhaps, it is that there may have been some hon. members of the Senate from the east where they are large consumers of English salt. English salt comes in free of duty and it is consumed largely in the east, in Montreal and amongst the fishermen of the maritime provinces. It does not come west of Montreal on account of the high freight. It appears to me to be inconceivable why Mr. HOLMES.
salt should not be branded in bags as well as in barrels. I heartily concur in the amendment which has been presented.


Mr. McEWEN.: I do not wish to say very much on this subject, but, having a little knowledge of the salt business, having been a manufacturer of salt for some little time,
I may be permitted to offer a few observations. In the first place we do not intend by this amendment to make any change in the barrel of salt. It really does not touch that at all, so that barrels will remain as they are at present. They have to be stamped with the gross and net weight and the tare so that every man who buys a barrel of salt knows exactly what he is getting. Of course, the barrel is subject to 5 per cent shrinkage. I contend that that provision is not necessary. If salt is not put up too green, instead of shrinking, I think it will come out long in damp weather. Sack salt coming from the old country shrinks to a considerable extent. I think this is not right. If the salt is dry when it is put up it will not shrink any further, but ir they put up that salt within a week after it is made it will shrink very much. 1 think this amendment regarding sack salt is a very commendable one. In buying a sack of salt that is considered to contain 200 pounds, if the farmer, or fisherman, only gets 140, or 150 pounds, he does not get value for what he is paying for. The manufacturer who puts up a 200-pound sack is placed at a great disadvantage and he will be obliged to give up business if that sort of thing continues. In the United States there is a law to the effect that manufacturers must keep salt after it is made, I think, for two weeks before it is put up, and if it is put up before that time the person doing it is subject to a very heavy fine. If all the manufacturers in Canada and elsewhere were put on this basis, the salt would not shrink. Consequently you will see that the shrinking business can be avoided if they put up the salt in the proper manner. I would be glad to see this Act passed, as I believe it is in the interest of the consumers. I hope it will pass the Senate this time.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria. N.S.) It is all very w*>U to speak of salt being put up in proper packages, but when you have a large quantity shipped from Liverpool in a poor quality of bags, they are handled so hurriedly and so roughly, and trucked to the warehouse in such a manner that there is always a large shrinkage. In order to have the quantity originally shipped you will require to have different kinds of sacks altogether. I know something of this trade, because I have had occasion to buy quite largely of salt both in bulk and in bags. It is all nonsense to think that you can by Act of parliament provide that the same quantity of salt shipped from Liverpool will arrive intact here in Canada.


William Ross: I might say to my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Ross) that it is not intended by this Bill to make a uniform bag of salt as in the case of a barrel of salt. A barrel of salt must contain 280 pounds in Canada, but it is not so with the bags. It is intended by this amendment to provide that the bags shall be marked with the quantity each contains, whether it be 50 pounds or 200 pounds, or any other weight. We find the most shrinkage in the English salt, but my experience has been that 5 per cent will about cover all the shrinkage, if the salt is put up properly. Under these circumstances there would be no difficulty, seeing that the manufacturer has 5 per cent shrinkage to come and go on.


Robert Franklin Sutherland: As 1 come from a district where salt is largely manufactured, I wish to give my endorsa-tion to this proposed amendment. I had a conversation with the manager of the Windsor Salt Company, and he views this amendment with a great deal of approval, because while there can be no doubt that under it the consumer is protected fully, it is also a step in the direction of protecting our Canadian manufacturers as to weight.


Some hon. MEMBER.: Hear, hear.


Mr. CULBERT.: I wish to say a few words on this question. I have handled salt for about forty years, and I think I may be considered as knowing something about this trade. It has been asserted here by some hon. gentlemen that the consumer does r.ot get value for his money, but my experience is that that is not correct. In the case of English salt, in some cases we get ten bags to the ton, and in other cases eleven bags to the ton, and the consumer is not charged for any more than he gets. The Windsor salt is put up in 50-pound, 200-pound and 280-pound barrels, and I cannot see that in any way the consumer is cheated. We weigh the bags and we know what they contain ; we always know what there is in the barrels, and therefore, the buyer does not get less than he pays for. I have been engaged in the salt business for a number of years, as I have said, and I have never known that the purchasers have been wronged.


George McEwen: My hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. Ross) says that English salt shrinks very much in weight. Well, if they dump the salt on the dock and allow the rain to get on it, that occurs through carelessness on their part, and they should be held liable for it. I do not think that my hon. friend will say that in every case they put the proper quantity of salt in the bags before they ship it to this country. The hon. gentleman cannot know that, and the object of this law is to make them do so. If the salt is put up dry and in good order it will not shrink.


Robert Holmes: It is not often that parliament is called upon by the manufacturers to legislate in the interest of the consumers, but in this case the amendments proposed are suggested by the manufacturers as a matter of protection to the consumer. There is no advantage to the manufacturers in the resolutions themselves, any more than that they protect them from what they term dishonest competition on the part of those who want to put light weight salt on the market. My hon. friend from Victoria, N.S. (Mr. Ross) says that the law will not be satisfactory to a certain portion of the community. Well, we cannot put any law on the statute-book which is not open to that objection, but I contend that this law is manifestly in the interest of the great bulk of the consumers of salt in Canada, and as such it should meet with the approval of this House.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: I propose the following subsection :
To insert the words ' or sack,' after the word * barrel.'


Richard Blain: I would like to ask the minister one question. I do not quite understand the twine clause which has been inserted. If a man offers for sale twine which was imported prior to last October, and which has no tag upon it, can he sell it without the tag ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Yes.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



MESSAGE FROM THE GOVERNOR GENERAL-SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES.

[Stage Direction]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hom.W. S. Fielding) delivered a Message from His Excellency the Governor General.
Mr. SPEAKER read the Message, as follows :
Minto.
The Governor General transmits to the House of Commons supplementary estimates of sums required for the service of the Dominion for the year ending 30th June, 1902, and in accordance with the provisions of the British North America Act, the Governor General recommends these estimates to the House of Commons. Government House,
Ottawa, 10th May, 1901.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 122) further to amend the General Inspection Act-the Minister of Inland Revenue (Hon. Mr. Bernier) read the second time, and House went into committee thereon.
The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: | The greater part of this Bill is a repetition



of the law as it now stands, but as there were complaints during last fall from foreign and British buyers with regard to the Inspection of grain coming from the United States in transit to Great Britain, and as an inquiry was held in Montreal during the winter by a commission composed of people with a knowledge of the trade, and as they recommended that changes should be made in the law, not only to satisfy the people who were making these complaints, but to protect our own trade, this Bill is introduced for the purpose of making the necessary changes. The only changes of importance are with regard to the grain inspection. The government proposes to provide for the inspection of grain east of Port Arthur, leaving the law as it is now with respect to the inspection in Manitoba. It is proposed that inspectors shall pass the examination required by the law, before a board of examiners chosen by the boards of trade of different cities, notably Montreal and Toronto. Each inspector must pass the necessary examination.
On section 2,


Ernest D'Israeli Smith: I would suggest to the minister the advisability of changing the word ' apples ' to the word * fruit.'


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: The Minister of Agriculture has a Bill before the House which provides for the inspection of fruit.


William Ross: How many chief inspectors will be appointed, and where will they be stationed ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: There will be one chief inspector. I cannot say how many deputy inspectors will be appointed. In this we will be guided by the requirements of the trade.
On section 5,


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: I propose to alter (he Bill, and to substitute for clause C of the present law, referred to In section 5, the following
Subsections 6 and 8 of section 16 of the said Act are repealed, and the following are substituted therefor :
6. If any dispute arises between any inspector or deputy inspector and the owner or possessor of any article inspected by him, in respect of which article a chief inspector has been appointed, with regard to the quality or condition of such article, or relating thereto, the matter in dispute shall not be decided by either of the methods in this section before provided, but upon application by either of the parties to the dispute, to the secretary of the board of trade or chamber of commerce for the place where the dispute has arisen, and who have appointed a board of examiners, the secretary shall forthwith summon said board of examiners for the said place, who, or a majority of whom, shall immediately examine such article and re-Mr. BERNIER.
port in writing their opinion of the quality or condition thereof. Should the board of examiners not confirm the grading fixed by the inspector or deputy inspector, and the owner and producer, within twenty-four hours after receiving notification thereof makes further appeal, the dispute shall be referred to the chief inspector, who shall immediately examine such articles and report his opinion of the quality or condition thereof; and his determination, expressed in writing, shall be final and conclusive, and the inspector or deputy inspector shall immediately conform thereto, and shall brand, stamp or mark, or cause to be branded, stamped or marked, such article, or the package containing it, of the quality or condition ascertained by the determination aforesaid, or shall grant a certificate of inspection in accordance with such determination, as the case requires; provided that nothing herein contained shall prevent the owner appealing direct from the inspector or deputy inspector to the chief inspector, whose decision in all cases shall be final and binding on all parties; providing always that no appeal shall be considered in any case where the identity of the article in dispute has not been preserved.


Mr. HACKETT.: I would like to ask the minister if the appointing of inspectors makes inspection compulsory ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: No. We appoint inspectors in order that those who sell for export may have a certificate to protect themselves. But, there is no compulsion.


William Ross: I know something of the trade in grain, and I may explain to the hon. member for Prince Edward Island (Mr. Hackett) that it is not compulsory to inspect grain unless it is sold for export. If sold for export it must be inspected, because the railways will not take it otherwise. I would like to make sure that I understand this amendment, which I tried to follow, but which is somewhat long. If a cargo of grain is received in Montreal and should not pass inspection of the deputy, he would notify the owner of the cargo. The owner would apply to the secretary of the board of trade, who would notify a number of members of the board, and who,
I suppose, would be called a board of arbitration.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: A board of examiners or board of surveys.


William Ross: In every board of trade there is a board of arbitrators, and, perhaps, they would be selected from. If this board cannot decide the matter, it goes to the chief inspector, whose judgment is final. That is as I understand it.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Yes.


William Ross: I think that is a fair provision. I sent a copy of the Bill to a number of grain men throughout the country who were a good deal interested, and who were apprehensive of the effect it

would have. I have had no reply from any of them, so I assume that the Bill is satisfactory. We in the trade first feared that these matters would be referred to the department at Ottawa. This, as can easily be understood, would be a great hardship. A cargo of grain might arrive at Montreal, and, if the question of grade had to be referred to Ottawa, it might be a week or ten days before it could be settled, and in the meantime, the time of contract with the intending purchaser on the other side would have expired, and the sale would be lost. But, I see now that the law would be quite workable. May I ask the minister if any provision has been made for the expense in connection with these appeals. In conversation with a Chicago merchant some time ago, I was informed that in that city, if a man made application for a board of appraisers, he paid a fee of about $5, and, if the inspection went in his favour his money was returned to him, but if it went against him, the money went to pay the expenses of the board of appraisers. How will the government deal with that matter ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: That would be settled by regulation.


William Ross: I wish to express my concurrence in the Bill.


Edward Hackett: My hon. friend from Ontario (Mr. Ross) has spoken on the inspection of grain. I had in mind the inspection of fish. If the minister is going to appoint inspectors, compel inspection and *charge a fee, he is going to place a tax upon the fishermen. I would like to have a statement from the minister on that point.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: It is not the intention of the government to make the inspection compulsory.
On section 6,


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: The only change here is in the insertion of the words ' or otherwise,' making the section read :
8. Whenever any difference arises between inspectors as to the true quality or grade of any article inspected by one of them and re-inspected by another, such difference shall be definitely determined by reference to the chief inspector, if one has been appointed, or otherwise to such board of arbitration or other authority as the Governor in Council appoints for that purpose.
Bill, as amended, reported, and read the third time and passed.



SUPPLY-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

[Stage Direction]
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved that the House go again into Committee of Supply.
Robert Laird Borden: Before you leave the Chair I would like to bring the right hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that 154*
on the 1st day of this month we were informed that all the business of the House yet to be brought down would be brought down that week or early the next week. We are now in the last days of the last week referred to, and we have not yet had the measure respecting the railway subsidies. /


The PRIME MINISTER.: The railway subsidies will not be large, I hope to bring them down on Monday.


Robert Laird Borden: The right hon. gentleman will also permit me to mention that we have not yet the papers relating to the claim of Mackenzie & Mann. They were promised early in April.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I have not yet been able to fulfil my good intentions. They will be brought down at an early day. The railway subsidies may be expected Monday or Tuesday.


Hon. Mr. HAGGART.: We were promised a lot of papers on the railway estimates that have not been brought down. The proposed Clergue contract has not yet been brought down.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I will take a note of it. Anything else?


John Graham Haggart: I want the amount of rails laid on the Intercolonial Railway, on the Drummond Railway, all papers in reference to the coal contracts, the correspondence and tenders in reference to contracts for the purchase of locomotives, freight cars, passenger cars and other material of the Intercolonial Railway, and the correspondence and negotiations in reference to the purchase of properties at Point LGvis.


The PRIME MINISTER.: I thought my hon. friend had been put in possession, personally, of those papers.


John Graham Haggart: I have only the bare contract, but no correspondence or negotiations.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: May I ask the First Minister if we are correct in understanding that no other Bill is to be introduced this session regarding an increase of the judges' salaries, except what is on the paper ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I do not think so, but I would not like to bind myself to any statement to-day.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
At six o'clock, House took recess.
After Recess.
House resumed at eight o'clock.

[Stage Direction]
House again in committee on Bill (No. 103) relating to an agreement between the
[Stage Direction]
government of Manitoba and the Canadian Northern Railway Company, respecting certain railways.-Mr. Mclsaac.
Andrew Archibald MacDonald: Shall the preamble be adopted ?


Some hon. MEMBERS: Carried.


Mr. JOHN CHARLTON (North Norfolk).: Mr. Chairman, I presume that the statement that this preamble shall be carried, made a moment ago by some hon. members, is only a little premature. I have no doubt it will be carried, but I have a few words to say in reference to the matter, and a few opinions to express in the direction of taking the position that the preamble of the Bill ought not to be carried whatever may be the result of this reference to this House. I was talking upon this question a night or two ago, Mr. Chairman, when you were in the Chair, and I fell a few minutes short of concluding my argument when the hour devoted to private Bills expired. I had reached the point where I proposed to attempt to demonstrate that the position of matters in Manitoba in reference to the transportation question, if no action had been taken by the legislature of that province, if no contract had been made for the purpose for which it was expected to make that contract-I was proceeding to demonstrate what, in my opinion, would have been in the near future the condition of matters in regard to the transportation problem in that province. I was about to express the opinion that the concessions in regard to freight rates which are to be secured under the provisions of the contracts in the Bill we are now considering, will, in the very near future, if the Bill passes, prove to be concessions that will be, in the rates charged, as provided by the Bill, higher than the natural course of events, the natural tendency of competition, would give the province of Manitoba. I believe, Sir, that the province of Manitoba is incurring enormous responsibilities-responsibilities that are likely to involve here in serious financial difficulties for the purpose of acquiring something that, in the natural course of events, would have come to her in two years. Hitherto Manitoba has had but one railway outlet and has not had the benefit of railway competition. Manitoba is about to have the benefit of railway competition conferred upon her, without purchase or investment of money. She has now the Canadian Pacific Railway; she will soon have a railway to Port Arthur, the line that is under consideration now, the construction of which does not depend upon the passing of this Bill. She will also have direct railway communication with the American port of Duluth at the head of Lake Superior. Within two years, probably within one year from this time, she will have three railway lines competing for the Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
transportation of her grain and merchandise to an fro from the waters of Lake Superior to the heart of the province of Manitoba. When that point is reached, when these roads are constructed, when three railway lines are competing for the business of Manitoba, I believe, Mr. Chairman, that it will be found that the rates provided for by this contract of 10 cents per hundredweight on wheat, of 15 per cent reduction in the present rates on every class of merchandise, and 3 cents per mile for passengers, with the probable exception of the passenger rate, wrill be found to be excessive and greater than the natural result of competition will confer upon the province without reference to this obligation, without reference to the great burdens which prospectively are being incurred by the province of Manitoba. The usual result of building competing lines is that at last these lines consolidate. This is not at all likely to be the case under the circumstances that I have been depicting, and I do not suppose that there is the slightest danger that the construction of these three lines in place of the one now in operation will have any other result than to give the province of Manitoba the benefit of genuine competition and a very large decrease in the rates charged for the transportation of merchandise and grain. If this is true, I ask, viewing this question from the Manitoba standpoint, what sense is there in the province incurring an obligation of $683,000 a year, the interest upon $17,075,000 at the rate of 4 per cent, for the purpose of securing something, which, the tendency of natural events, the operation of competition and the opening of new lines will inevitably give to Manitoba within the next twenty-four months ? That is the feature of the case that strikes me as being a matter which should command the attention of this House. It strikes me as being a feature of the case which renders it absolutely certain that this bargain is an improvident one, a foolish one, and that Manitoba is not acting in her own interests in embarking upon this scheme. Of course, it may be said that it As none of our business, and perhaps, in a sense, it is not. But, Manitoba is a province of this Dominion, and the interests and prosperity of Manitoba are to a greater or less extent a matter of concern to every other province and the Dominion cannot afford-if its interests will be jeopardized and affected in an injurious way-to have any one province suffering the serious consequences of any mistake they may have made which entails upon her ruinous burdens if our action can avert it. This may be entirely Manitoba's own matter and we might not be called upon to do more than extend our sympathy to Manitoba, we might not be called upon to do more than give our advice to Manitoba if we were not called upon to exercise our func-

tions as a legislature in this matter. Why is this Bill before us ? If this is purely and simply Manitoba's act, if Manitoba alone is responsible for this position of matters, what have we to do with it at all ? But, if the Bill is before us, if the Bill requires our sanction, if it requires our action to make it law, we are just as much a party to this arrangement as Manitoba is. and we cannot divest ourselves of the responsibility that rests upon us as a legislature. It is childish to say that we have nothing to do with it, that we have no responsibility when we have spent four days in the Railway Committee wrangling over this question, spent day after day in the House of Commons discussing the question, when we are discussing it to-night, and when we will be discussing it again. Why ? What business have we to discuss this question, if we have nothing to do with it ? What business have we to advance arguments pro and con, if it is a matter for which we are not responsible ? Our responsibility is just as great, is just as actual as the responsibility of the Manitoba government, and so it becomes us to look at the merits of this case, it becomes us to arrive at a conclusion as to the merits of this case, and to be governed by the evidence which is furnished to us by an investigation as to the merits of this Bill which is now before the House of Commons of Canada, asking of the House of Commons approval of its provisions, and which will not come into operation, which cannot become law. until the sovereign seal of the Dominion government is set upon the Bill. Manitoba, with the sanction of the parliament of Canada, with the connivance of the parliament of Canada, with the aid of the parliament of Canada, if the Bill becomes law, is about to incur a responsibility to the extent of $683,000 a year for something that will come in the natural course of events in certainly not more than five years from this date. It is a bargain characterized by a degree of improvident folly that never has characterized any proposition placed before any legislative body on the American continent since the American revolution.
When you come to examine the provisions of this Bill it is deftly and, adroitly drawn. I may justly compliment the speculators, the railroad men, the contractors with the province of Manitoba for the shrewdness and grasp that they have shown in preparing the provisions of this Bill.


Mr. RICHARDSON (Lisgar).: They have lots of practice.


John Charlton: They have lots of practice ; and we have a class of public men in America, fewer thank God in Canada than in the United States, who have lots of practice in that kind of business and who can sweep the wealth of the people into
their coffers, already overflowing, with a degree of skill which is perfectly astounding. The Bill provides that periods of two years shall be arranged for arriving at a conclusion as to whether the receipts of the road after paying running expenses will pay the rental and charges that the, Manitoba government is responsible for. If there should be a deficiency in one year and a surplus in the other the two years are blocked together. But, if there should be two years deficiency and these should be followed by two years of a large surplus, not one cent of the surplus of the second period of two years can be applied to the deficiency the Manitoba government will be called on to pay for the first period of two years. The thing is blocked out in that shape so that Manitoba can pay when there is a deficiency, and the road can profit where there is a surplus. The arrangement is : heads I win, tails you lose. It is a very nice arrangement for McKenzie & Mann, but not so nice an arrangement for the province of Manitoba. Then we have an arrangement in this Bill about working expenses. It is a nice arrangement for the railroad men ; it is skilfully drawn ; it is contained in clause 11 of schedule B. It is as follows :
For the purposes of this clause the term * working expenditure ' shall not include-
See how disinterested they are at the start.
For the purposes of this clause the term ' working expenditure ' shall not include the salary or remuneration of any officer, employee or other person whose time is not wholly employed bona fide in connection with the said lines of railway in this clause mentioned ; but as to officers and employees and other persons whose services are necessary or desirable in connection with the said lines and whose whole time is not taken up in connection therewith there shall be included reasonable remuneration for the time actually expended and services actually rendered by them in connection with said lines ;
If my lion friends behind me here do not stop talking they will miss the wording of this clause, which is very important.
-and the said term shall not include any expenses, payments or outgoings not reasonably necessary for the efficient management, maintenance, operation and repair of the said lines, nor shall the said term include the cost of double tracking the said lines, but siding reasonably required for the traffic and operation of the lines shall not be deemed double tracking.
Well, when you get at this from a railway man's standpoint, what does it mean ? It means that no mortal thing in connection with construction account, or the operation of that railway shall be excluded from the term ' operating expenses,' except the laying down of the double track It covers as operating expenses, the re-railing of the line. Our friends are laying down a rather light rail now. They want the $30,400 per mile applied to the road that cost $15,000 a mile.

to go as far as possible, and so they are laying down a light rail. And when the time comes to remove that 56-pound rail or whatever it is, and put down a 90-pound rail, the substitution of the heavy for the light rail will be a part of operating expenses. The operating expenses will cover sidings ; it will cover ballasting and it wdll cover renewing bridges. The Canadian Pacific Railway came here a few years ago to get its bridge material free of duty when the time came to renew bridges, and the Canadian Northern will have charged to ' operating expenses' this charge for renewing bridges when the time comes, and the province of Manitoba will have to pay it. It will cover everything except double tracking. It will cover the construction of elevators ; the construction of warehouses ; the construction of station houses ; the construction of spur lines and branch lines. It will cover enough to swamp and absorb all the earnings of that road in * operating expenses,' and leave the province of Manitoba to pay the guarantees. That will be the inevitable result for a time at least.
Then we have no provision made in this contract with regard to freight upon materials. There is a railroad extending from Port Arthur to Winnipeg and extending beyond Winnipeg ; having already reached the western boundaries of Manitoba and beyond it. It is intended to carry this line to the Yellow Head Pass and ultimately from the Yellow Head Pass to the Pacific ocean. Over that railway from Port Arthur west, a vast amount of construction material is to be carried : rails, fish-plates, spikes, bridge material, building material, tens of thouands of tons of road material; and there is no provision made, no safeguard to protect the rights of Manitoba in this regard. And this vast amount of freight may be carried by the Canadian Northern Railway practically at the cost and expense of the province of Manitoba by putting on freight rates so nominal and ridiculously low that they amount to nothing. Everything in connection with this contract is in favour of the railway corporation, and nothing whatever, nothing that can be dreamed or imagined is in favour of the province of Manitoba. We have then this agreement fairly launched : the province of Manitoba liable for $683,000 a year; we have a schedule of freight rates arranged that will in less than two years be lower than the mark now arranged by natural competition. We have the province making itself liable for $17,000,000 for nothing, and we have the province entering into this obligation under the mistaken assumption that they have control over the rates when they possess no such control, and when the changes in this amended Bill set forth definitely that the legislature of Manitoba was labouring under a mistaken impression in that. We have clearly stated here in the amended Bill that the talk about I Mr. CHARLTON.
the control of the rates was a misnomer and a delusion, and that the Dominion government has the paramount authority and the Manitoba government subordinate authority in connection with this matter. It is true that the Dominion government, as is claimed by Manitoba, may fix maximum i-ates, and Manitoba by its arrangement with the contractors may secure lower than the maximum rates, but it is also true that the Dominion government may for reasons of public policy increase the rates. It is true that the Dominion government is master of the situation.
If the schedule of rates secured by Manitoba interfered with the rates on the Ontario business, on the 290 miles of road between the boundary of Manitoba and Port Arthur, circumstances might arise to call on the Governor in Council to upset the whole arrangement and raise these rates to a certain extent for the protection of the interests of the province of Ontario. Or, if the arrangement of rates on these roads had the practical effect of drawing business from Canadian lines to American lines, and thereby drawing to the harbour of Duluth business that we might wish to have centred at Port Arthur or Fort William, the Railway Committee of the Privy Council could step in and change these rates at their pleasure. Manitoba is absolutely powerless in the hands of the Dominion government, and has incurred vast responsibilities and vast liabilities for what was presumed to be something tangible, but what is intangible and worthless, in view of the developments in competition that will result from other railway lines being constructed in the near future, and the outcome will probably be, under the manipulation of these shrewd railway contractors, that the province of Manitoba will pay all or nearly all the guarantees provided for by the terms of this contract.
This is not a very pleasant prospect to face for the province of Manitoba, and it is not a very pleasant position for the House of Commons to force a province into ; and if that disaster can be averted honourably, if Manitoba can be saved from the consequences of her own folly ; if we, in the exercise of our sovereign power as the highest legislative body in this Dominion, having. referred to us a Bill which requires our sanction and our action-If we can avert this calamity, it is our duty to do so. It is not asked that this Bill be disallowed ; it is not asked that it be refused. It is simply asked, in the light of the facts brought out by the discussion, that Manitoba be granted an opportunity of again passing upon this matter, and of saying whether this Bill, which has been materially altered in this House, is still one which meets with her approval ; and if. when that Bill is referred back, the legislature of Manitoba, with all the facts in their possession, sanction it and declare that it meets their wishes, enough

said. We have performed our duty ; we have given Manitoba an opportunity to retrace her steps in an act of folly ; and if she will persist in that act, then the argument will come in that Manitoba must judge for herself and must suffer the consequences of her own act.
As I have said, the rates provided by this contract will, by the natural tendency of business operations, very soon prove to be excessive rates. A rate of 10 cents per 100 pounds upon wheat, for a distance of less than 500 miles, from Wininpeg to Port Arthur, is a large rate. Wheat is carried from Chicago to New York, a distance of
1.000	miles, for from 8 to 12 cents per 100 pounds. Wheat can be carried from Buffalo to New York, a distance of 450 miles, for 24 cents per 100 pounds, and yield a fail-margin ; and it is carried from Buffalo to New York by rail for 3 cents a bushel. Wheat is carried from Chicago to Montreal -transhipped at Depot Harbour, passed over the Canada Atlantic line, and laid down in Montreal-for 3$ cents a bushel, or about 5 cents per 100 pounds-a rail route almost as long as from Winnipeg to Port Arthur, besides the water transportation from Chicago to Depot Harbour. In the light of these facts, the rates provided by this contract will prove to be excessive ; and when these three lines of road are constructed, the question would settle itself, and Manitoba would secure rates as low as those provided for without having incurred one cent of obligation. And when these facts are made known, when Manitoba is placed in full possession of the knowledge that affects her interests in this matter, why should we refuse to that province an opportunity to retrace her steps, to avoid an act of folly, and to say whether she is still of opinion that she had better ratify and confirm that Bill.
There is another consideration in connection with this matter. I recollect when it cost 25 cents a bushel to transport wheat from Chicago to Buffalo, and I know that within recent years it has been done for from 1} to 2 cents a bushel. At that time it cost 45 cents a bushel to send wheat from Chicago to New York by rail. Within the last fifteen years freight rates upon railroads and freight rates by vessels have been reduced to the extent of two-thirds. The rate now is one-third the rate paid not more than ten or fifteen years ago ; and the tendencies which constantly work for the reduction of these rates are still in operation. With improvements in railway carriage, the ultimate result has not yet been reached. We. have the 90-pound rail, the fish-plate joint, the locomotive capable of drawing forty cars of fifty tons each-
2.000	tons of freight-with a crew of four or five men ; and still there are greater possibilities in the future. We may have the 120-pound rail : we may have grades still further reduced ; we may have a 100-ton car ; we may have the 4,000-ton load for
a train, and a reduction of freight rates to one-half what they are now ; and in ten years this lease, which is costing the province of Manitoba a pledge of $083,000, may be absolutely worthless. What is to be the development with regard to electric roads, which are just in their infancy, and with regard to other improvements ? We do not know what the conditions of this transportation problem will be in a single decade ; and the province of Manitoba is incurring a vast risk in assuming any responsibility whatever in this matter. She had better sit down and let the stars run their course-let events take their counse, and let the progress that the world is now making redound to her advantage in a few years, and secure to her rates far below the scale for which she is paying $17,000,000 to-day. And why should Manitoba, at great cost and risk, pay for an imagined right to fix rates, which the Dominion may revise at pleasure, and Which may, as I have pointed out, soon be entirely excessive ? Why should Manitoba pay for this privilege ? Why should Manitoba buy the barren right to fix rates which this government may supersede and override ? Why should she pay to get herself into a position where she will be -worse off in five years, inevitably, than she will be if she sits still and does nothing?
There are other things about this contract. Why do not these gentlemen give to Manitoba representation upon the railway board ? She incurs all the liability for the payment of the bonds and the rental of $7,000,000 worth of roads bought from the Northern Pacific ; she sets up Mackenzie & Maun in business, and assumes all the responsibilities they incur ; and they do not even give her the miserable privilege of having a single representative on the board -not an individual to watch her interests, to watch the possible manipulation of speculators, who. perhaps, will override her interests, and whose operations, it may be very desirable to have some competent man to watch and check. No, she has no representation upon the board, nor can she appoint an auditor. Why is not Manitoba permitted to name an auditor to audit the accounts when she is ultimately liable for the last cent ? She has neither representation on the board, nor the privilege of appointing an auditor, nor any other privilege, except the privilege of paying the cost, and she will have that privilege to her heart's content.
These gentlemen who are interested in this contract, about how badly have they been treated anyway by the Dominion government and the Ontario and other governments ? They are building a road, and are receiving aid from the Dominion and Ontario governments to the amount of $10,400 per mile, and they have agreed, as a condition of receiving that aid. that the Dominion shall exercise the right, with regard to rates, that they are now selling to Manitoba for $17,000,000. Is not that rather

sharp practice ? And Manitoba has guaranteed their bonds to the extent of .$20,000 a mile, and they are placed In possession of resources amounting to $30,400 per mile on a road that will only cost half the money. They are placed in possession of resources by the act of the Dominion government and the act of the Ontario government and the endorsation of the Manitoba government, that will build two miles for every mile they have to build; and having built their road to Rainy River, they will have the means to go on and build 300 miles more out of these resources. And yet this is not enough. And so they proceed to get this contract, and get Manitoba to agree to become sponsor for these vast operations-the purchase of the whole system of the Northern Pacific in Manitoba, the guaranteeing of the bonds of the road from Port Arthur to Rainy River, and the guaranteeing of other sections, amounting in all to the round sum of $700,000 per year. Well, I think that when these gentlemen got bonuses almost sufficient to build their line, and in addition got a guarantee of $20,000 a mile, and were placed in a position to build two miles of road for every mile covered by their guarantee and bonds, they were well enough off, and there was no necessity for them to ask further concessions and proceed to gobble up the wdiole province.
I believe that it is asserted that no representations were made, when this measure was under discussion in the Manitoba legislature, that would lead the members of that legislature to suppose that Manitoba would exercise control over railway rates. I have here a few extracts from speeches and from editorials in Manitoba papers with regard to this question, and I find that Premier Roblin, speaking in the Manitoba legislature upon the consideration received by the province as a quid pro quo for its pledged credit, made use of this language. Referring to the pledge of the credit of the province, and the assumption of these liabilities, he said :
That means that the people of Manitoba will enjoy a privilege enjoyed by no other province in Canada or state in the United States, that the Lieutenant Governor in Council will have the right and authority to make all tariffs from that time forward until the contract Is revoked.
What would be the inference drawn from that language ? It would be that the province of Manitoba was incurring obligations in return for which she should control rates, and I believe that the majority of the members of the Manitoba legislature took the same view of the case. Further on the premier said :
The country might, he felt, look forward with
confidence to the future

I think it may, but a different kind of future from that he is referring to.


John Charlton: -as this railway policy would be the inauguration of a new era of prosperity and growth, particularly in an agricultural sense, that would be a wonder and marvel to other parts of Canada, because of the confidence that would be established by the fact that the government, the people, controlled the rates, and would be an encouragement to the farmers to increase the area of land they cultivated, and their herds, and show the enterprise and development that a flourishing condition of things would warrant.
By getting a rate of 10 cents a hundred weight on wheat, when, in two years, natural competition would probably bring it down to 7 or 8 cents. By getting 15 per cent off the present schedule rates on the Canadian Pacific Railway, when the natural trend of events and competition will bring them down 40 per cent at least. These magnificent results are heralded to the people of Manitoba and the Dominion as the outcome of a great stroke of statesmanship that would make Manitoba the envy of all the provinces of this Dominion, and all the states of the American republic. Bosh ! What nonsense !
And we should take into consideration that statements of this kind did have their influence, did undoubtedly tend tq produce, if they did not absolutely procure, the action taken by the Manitoba government; and if I am capable of drawing a conclusion, it is that it is our duty, in the face of all these representations made, not to reverse the action of Manitoba, not to set our veto on any right which that province possesses, but to exercise the right we possess now-when called upon, in a cooperative and co-ordinate capacity to sanction this legislation-only to sanction it subject to the condition that it shall be referred back to the province of Alanitoba, with the changes we have made, and the considerations that have been developed, for their action and approval again.
I have also here an extract from a speech made by the Attorney General of Manitoba, Air. Campbell. I do not know but that it would be merely an act of fairness to read that extract, so that the charge could not be made that there was any attempt to prejudice or pettifog this case. Mr. Campbell, in a speech upon this question, while it was under consideration, made use of the following language :
Now we come to the most important part of the contract, in connection with which a great deal of discussion has arisen, namely, the imposition of tolls. There are gentlemen who desire to mystify the public in reference to this question. It is stated tjiat the government cannot do what a private individual might do.
The Minister of Railways has laid down this proposition clearly and distinctly, that all the Dominion government does is to fix the maximum tariff. The Railway Act and the charter of the company give it the power to make and impose the tariff, that is to say, it must go to the Dominion government for sanction; and we know the practice that prevails in the sanction of it. The government simply say what

toll shall be the maximum toll. Now, the Railway Committee are permitted, and I have no doubt that hon. gentlemen who have anything to do with traffic know what they are allowed to contract within that maximum tariff. We find that this is done upon passenger rates; the rate is 3 cents a mile according to the maximum tariff, yet we find railways running cheap tares, cheap excursions, and if they were not permitted to contract at a less sum than the maximum tariff it would not be possible to get the benefit of these cheap fares. At the same time, we find there is a tariff for carrying freight at a certain figure, yet the company are permitted, as Mr. Blair pointed out, to make whatever contract they like within that limit. Now, all the government is attempting to do is what each individual is doing for himself-that we are endeavouring to do for the whole people. That is to say, while I myself might go and make a contract, the government proposes to make that contract for the whole of the people of the province. The sections that deal with this matter state that there should be no discrimination, no special rates, and no secret special rates, and there are other restrictions. Now. if the contract we propose to make were a discriminatory contract, it might be had under the Railway Act; but we are making a contract which is just and equitable, and applies equally to every person in Manitoba. It is quite true that if we make a contract at a greater rate than that fixed as a maximum tariff by the Dominion, our contract would be superseded by the general tariff fixed by the government at Ottawa; but that would be no detriment to the people of this province, because we would get the benefit of the lowest tariff, whichever it might be. If the Dominion government made a lower tariff than the amount we had fixed, the people of the province would get the benefit of it; but if our contract for rates was lower than the maximum, the people would get the benefit of that, and that is what we propose to do. We have no objection to the Minister of Railways or the government at Ottawa, if they think fit, to make a lower tariff than we suggest; the people will have no quarrel with them, because we will receive the benefit of whichever is the lowest tariff.
A great deal has been said about the Dominion government not allowing us to encroach upon their rights under the Railway Act. We do not desire to encroach upon the rights of the Dominion government, and I believe when the Dominion government come to ratify this contract, as they will be shortly called upon to do, they will say, as it is proper for them to say, that they reserve to themselves to fix any amount that they like, and if the amount is less than the amount we fixed no harm is done.
That is the statement of Mr. Campbell, and it will he observed that he states plainly that the Dominion government may fix maximum rates. But he does not state that the Dominion government may increase the rates, that it may override the action of Manitoba in any direction or in any manner that it may deem advisable in the public interest; and he does not state that the putting of rates below a reasonable figure, while it would benefit the people of Manitoba so far as freight rates are concerned, would leave the people of Manitoba to pay the deficiency which was caused by putting rates below a proper figure. And he does not say to the
people of Manitoba that these rates that he is talking about, which the Dominion government may revise, which the Dominion government may increase, and which, If lower than a paying rate the government of Manitoba must make up indirectly if not direct^-he does not say that these rates are, in any event probably higher than the actual natural rates charged for business will be within two or three years, when other railway lines are completed, and when Manitoba is enjoying the benefits of competition that will come without guarantee, without liability, without incurring the obligations he would recommend.
So, Mr. Chairman, I do not think that even the language of Attorney General Campbell will set aside the assertion I make, that the impression in the legislature of Manitoba and among the people of Manitoba was that though the province was incurring this obligation of $683,000 a year for one year less than one thousand years, a period far longer than the average of empires and nations, yet in return for that obligation she was getting absolute control of rates, when the truth is that she has not such control, the Dominion having paramount authority, the Railway Committee of the Privy Council can treat these rates in any manner it chooses-if the public interests require it the rates can be raised as well as lowered, the interests of Ontario against discriminating rates can be protected by raising them, the business can be diverted from foreign roads by raising the rates, and therefore, Manitoba has been buying an apparent privilege, n shadow without substance, but she has been incurring an obligation which is not a shadow, except as it renders dark and gloomy her future for years to come.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. Amen.


John Charlton: ' Amen,' says the hon. member (Mr. LaRiviere), and a great many in Manitoba in the future, when the pinch comes and the taxes are being collected and when the effects of this act of supreme folly make themselves felt, will pray for the vengeance of heaven on the men that brought in the Bill, and will fervently say ' Amen.'
This Bill that we are considering here tonight is not the Bill that the legislature of Manitoba considered ; it is a part of it. But we have amended the Bill ; we have made essential amendments. We have incorporated a clause here-it was necessary in the interests of honesty and fair-play, necessary to apprise the people of Manitoba of the actual position of the matter; necessary for the purpose of showing that they had not and could not have absolute control of rates. But X hold that, as we have inserted that provision, the Bill is so essentially amended and the purport of it so en-. tirely different from what the Manitoba

legislators and the Manitoba public suppose, that it is merely an act of the most common kind of fair-play to refer that Bill back to these people with these changed conditions and ask them what they think of them. If it is suitable and agreeable, let them ratify it, and if not, give them a chance to get out of the mess they have, got into. Now, what are these changes ? Section 3 says :
3. Nothing in this Act or in the indentures contained in the schedules hereto, or done in pursuance of this Act or or the said indentures, shall-
(a)	divest or limit, temporarily or otherwise, the rights or powers (under existing or future legislation of the parliament df Canada) of the Governor in Council, or of the Railway Committee of the Privy Council, or of any commission or other authority, respecting any matter or thing, obligation or duty;
(b)	place the government of Canada, directly or indirectly, under any liability, obligation or duty with respect to any payment, matter or thing in the said indentures provided for or referred to ;
(c)	authorize the Canadian Northern Railway Company to charge or demand any higher rates for the carriage of freight or passengers than those heretofore or hereafter fixed, under the authority of existing or future legislation of the parliament of Canada, by the Governor in Council, or by the Railway Committee of the Privy Council, or by any commission or other authority.
Absolutely sweeping away every vestige of primary authority that the legislature of Manitoba supposed that that province might, under the contract, possess, absolutely changing the condition of the contract as understood by the people of Manitoba, clearly defining, absolutely asserting that the Dominion government was paramount in authority, and the Manitoba government subordinate in authority, with reference to this matter. Now, this is a disillusion to the people of Manitoba. If this position had been clearly stated, I do not believe that the people of Manitoba would ever have ratified this contract; and I am desirous of putting to the test whether the opinion that I entertain with regard to that matter is correct, by actually giving to the people of Manitoba an opportunity to pass upon the amended provisions of this contract.


Mr. DAVIS.: What about the resolution on short speeches ?


John Charlton: With regard to short speeches, I have exhausted my efforts in that direction, and I have concluded to convert the House by adopting opposite tactics, and if I can, by making three or four long speeches, induce my hon. friend the leader of the government and others to consider the propriety of referring this question to a special committee for the purpose of seeing if the abuse can be averted, I shall think my efforts have been successful.
Mr. LaRIVIERE. Don't forget to read the Scriptures.


John Charlton: 


John Charlton: The Scriptures are so distasteful to my hon. friend that I won't venture to read them again. Now, it might be a very pertinent question to ask at this juncture : What are our functions here, anyway ? What are we talking about ? Why are we talking about this thing ? Is this all wind ? Is this without purpose ? Have we not a right to talk about this question ? Can we produce any effect by talking about this question ?


Robert Lorne Richardson: Not the least.


John Charlton: No, I guess not. Has parliament jiower to do anything with this question ? It is quite evident what it will do. It reminds me of a story told some years ago when the Pennsylvania legislature was under the dominion of the Pennsylvania Railway. The manager of the road was old Jim Scott, and one of the members of the legislature, when the business of the session was about to close, said, rising to his feet : Mr. Speaker, I move that if Jim Scott had nothing else for us to do, we adjourn. Evidently Jim Scott has something for this House to do. I do not suppose that I am producing any impression here. I do not suppose that if I argued this case till doomsday I would produce any impression. But I do suppose that this House has jurisdiction, I do suppose that this House has certain functions in connection with this matter, I do suppose that this House has power to do justice or to refuse justice, that this House has power to save Manitoba or to ruin Manitoba. If we are acting in our sovereign capacity as the Dominion House of Commons, and are acting upon a Bill that we can either give or refuse our assent to, and it is strictly within our rights to do one thing or the other, I say it is not an impertinent question. What are our functions ? Our functions are positive functions, they are proper functions, they are the functions of a legislative body dealing with an Act of legislation referred to them for their action. We must stand or fall upon the verdict we give with regard to this matter.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The hour for private Bills being exhausted, the House will resume consideration of supply.
Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria. N.S.) This is a case where history repeats itself : ' We have all gone astray and I alone am left.'



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
House again in Committee of Supply.
Immigration-Amount required to pay gratuity of two months' salary to widow of late D. L. Cavan, immigration agent, $200.
['I am very much afraid that on Monday next, the only business that we shall have will be private Bills. They are the first order.']
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is not customary to give gratuities to the wives of officials who are not on the permanent staff, but this man was for

some years in the employ of the department, and his death resulted from an illness contracted in the performance of his duty.


Samuel Hughes: Before this item passes, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of the Interior who his agents in Ireland are ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Mr. Webster and Mr. Kelly.


Samuel Hughes: Where is Mr. Devlin ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: In Dublin.


Samuel Hughes: Is that in Ireland ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
It was when I was there.


Samuel Hughes: What salary does Mr. Devlin get ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Three thousand dollars a year.


Samuel Hughes: What does he do for it ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
I understand he works very hard all the time.


Samuel Hughes: I notice by some of the papers that Mr. Devlin is writing letters slandering members of the House of Commons in a very blackguardly fashion. I draw the attention of the hon. minister to the fact.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.My attention was	called to	the fact to
which the hon. gentleman refers to-day. I say at once that I very much regret that these letters have been written, and I shall express my opinion of it to Mr. Devlin without delay. I take the ground at once that it is entirely improper for officers of the civil service to write letters in the newspapers reflecting upon members of the House of Commons.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I may say further that while he is criticising in the most scurrilous manner in which he has done, members of parliament, so far as I am concerned, his statements are untrue, because I think I absolutely refrained from criticising the individuals employed in Ireland.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I know that is correct.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: This person has taken advantage of his position to write a letter attacking those who gave him no ground for doing so, but I am glad the hon. minister takes the ground so promptly that no civil servant has any right to attack a member of parliament in the performance of what he conceives to be his duty in the
House of Commons. I am glad to say that so far as I can see, while civil servants hold their opinions in political matters, and are quite right in so doing, neither Grit nor Tory interferes in any way in political matters. I think we may further congratulate ourselves upon the fact that the civil servants that were appointed by the government of Mr. Mackenzie, by the late government, and by the present government realize and appreciate the position of civil servants which should be that of noninterference in political matters, and more especially non-interference with members of parliament in the performance of their public duties.
To provide for expenses of an exhibit of the products of the North-west at the Pan-American exhibition at Buffalo, $4,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is this going to be a separate exhibition, or in a building belonging to Canada, or is it all to be in one building ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This is to be an exhibition made in the same manner as ordinary exhibitors go in. They go in under the regulations of the grant.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You are not going to try the foolish experiment that you tried at Chicago of erecting a separate building?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
No, there is no intention of doing that.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are you appointing a commissioner to represent the North-west Territories, and if so, whom ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
We have not appointed anybody specially at all.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you intend appointing anybody ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
No. there is no present intention of appointing anybody. The Dominion commissioner is there, and there has been no arrangement made to appoint a special commissioner for the North-west. This matter is being arranged by the North-west government. It is quite impossible for the department to arrange the details of the exhibition. It may be necessary to send somebody down with the exhibits, but we will appoint no special commissioner.
Government of the Yukon Territory-Further amount required for expenses connected with the administration of the Yukon territory, $45,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What is this further amount required for ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think I explained this item when my main estimates were under consideration. I explained to the committee at the time that we had found it necessary to make

new arrangements last fall in respect to the living allowances of the officers in the Yukon, and instead of providing them with houses, as has been done by the Public Works Department, we made them a special allowance of $50 a month for lodging. The expenses of the Public Works Department are reduced in the neighbourhood of that amount-perhaps not exactly that amount-and the expenses of this department are increased by that amount. The result of having allowed them $50 a month for living allowance is that we have a large additional amount of pay in this year. This is made up in this way: Up to the first of October last, the officials were residing in a building provided for them by the Public Works Department, and the government allowed them $100 a month for living allowance. That was not satisfactory, so it was decided to let them make their own arrangements in regard to lodgings, to relieve the Public Works Department from that duty and to allow them $50 a month additional in each case for lodgings. There are between sixty and seventy officials coming under this arrangement, so that we will require $27,000. In connection with the visit of the Governor General to Dawson, the expenses being incurred by the Yukon council, when the Governor General went to Dawson, I gave instructions that he should be properly looked after by the authorities, and as there was an expense of $4,000 incurred, I am asking for that amount. We are short also on the expenditure in connection with printing, stationery and advertising. The amount exceeded the amount which we thought it would reach last year, owing to the very large number of sales of mining claims which have been made, and which have to be extensively advertised. The expenses in connection with advertising in the newspapers have been heavier than we anticipated they would be. We are asking for $4,000 on account of that. In connection with the sales of these claims, and the collection of the royalty, we have to pay commissions to the officers of the mounted police. We have concluded that is the most satisfactory way to collect the royalty. For the commission paid to the officers and fees to the auctioneers, we estimate $10,000 for this year. These amounts were not covered in the vote taken last year.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you pay commission to the mounted police, in addition to their usual salary ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, l'es.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: 1 thought it was getting cheaper to live in the Yukon rather than dearer, because of the increased transportation facilities.


Mr. SIFTON.: 


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: In some wrays it is cheaper now than before, but our reports are that our officers have very serious difficulty in making ends meet there. I think that the House will agree that it is not desirable that the officials of the government in the Yukon should be so placed as not to be able to live in a respectable way. The general feeling appears to have been always that we have rather erred on the side of not paying our Yukon officials enough. We think this arrangement is satisfactory without being unduly extravagant.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do you give them $50 a month for rent, and $100 for living allowance, besides their salary ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That seems to be pretty generous.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It looks large to us here, but if my hou. friend saw what every little thing costs in the Yukon, he would agree that this is not an extravagant arrangement.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: As the Minister of the Interior has largely the control of the expenditures and the business of the Yukon, 1 would like to know what is the total Yukon expenditure proposed for the current year for all the departments ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will give the hon. gentleman a statement when the House meets on Monday.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I would also like to know the estimated population of the Yukon.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My deputy says that we can give a fair estimate of that.


Mr. GANONG.: I would like to ask the minister if one Mr. H. H. Norwood is at present employed in the Yukon ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
No.


Gilbert White Ganong: Was he employed ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes.


Gilbert White Ganong: When did his services cease ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
About a year ago.


Gilbert White Ganong: Has he not been employed by the	department	within jt year 1The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
It is about a year ago.


Gilbert White Ganong: Was he employed by the department subsequent to June, 1900 ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think I am quite safe in saying he was not.


Gilbert White Ganong: There are some items in the Auditor General's Report in connection with the expenditures of this gentleman, but they seem to end on June 30, 1900. He has not been in the employ of the government since June ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is impossible to remember to a day or two, but I am quite safe in saying that he was not.


Gilbert White Ganong: He was not in the employ of the department in October and November last year ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Of 1900, no.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I would like the minister to tell me, though it is not in his department, what is the salary of the postmaster at Dawson City ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My deputy tells me that it is $3,000 a year. I do not remember, but I think it must be in the report of the Postmaster General.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: My information is that he gets $1,800 a year living allowance in addition to that.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I presume so. It is outside of my department, and I cannot speak positively.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: When these items are going through it is a pity the ministers are not here to give information.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: If the hon. gentleman only wants to get the information at his disposal, 1 can give it to him on Monday with the other information.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I would be obliged if you would. The ministers used to say, we will give you the information on concurrence, and last year they simply called out the number of the item, and jumped from one page to another, so that we could not know what item was passing. Whatever information we get this year we will have to get it before concurrence, and then let concurrence go through as rapidly as the ministers desire.
Dominion Lands-Chargeable to income, $11,600.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many extra clerks have you at the head office who are paid out of this vote ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The latter portion of this vote is for the purpose of paying the copying clerks who are employed writing the patents. We did not take quite enough in the main estimates,
and we ask $1,000 more. My deputy tells me that there are four at the present time.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Are they employed solely on the patents ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are four originally. There are about twelve specially employed in copying patents.


Mr. MACLEAN.: Will the minister tell us what the dates of these patents are, and what progress is being made in issuing patents to the Canadian Pacific Railway under their contract with the government ?
I would like him to give us a somewhat definite statement with regard to that.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I went into the matter somewhat carefully a couple of weeks ago. and the result justifies the statement that we shall be able, without any question, to issue patents for all the lands that have been agreed upon with the Manitoba and North-west railway companies, including the Canadian Pacific Railway, by the end of this calendar year. At the present time we have issued patents for all the Canadian Pacific Railway lands that have been selected in the province of Manitoba and a large number in the Territories.


William Findlay Maclean: The patents are dated as of this year ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
The patent is dated when it is issued, of course.


William Findlay Maclean: And therefore the company will be able to claim, and I have no doubt they do claim, that their exemption on all that land dates from this year, instead of dating, as it should, from the time those lands were granted, seventeen years ago.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Let me say to my hon. friend on that point that the date of the patent makes no difference whatever. It operates from the day the land is delivered.


William Findlay Maclean: Will the minister tell us what progress has been made in regard to submitting to the courts the question as to when the exempton dates from ?
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.I am	speaking subject	to correction; but
from what I remember as I looked into the question, it would be necessary for the twenty years' period to run. An assessment of the land should be made in order that the matter could be brought into the courts. I do not know whether an assessment can be made this year or not. If it can be, we will have that done.


William Findlay Maclean: Then you intend to raise the question in connection with some

land that will be assessed in the North-west. You do not intend to make a straight reference to the courts in the form of a question ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have had some conversation with my hon. friend the Solicitor General on that subject. Though a member of the legal profession, I am of course not the legal adviser of the government. I understand that the Solicitor General takes the view that a straight reference to the court in the form of a question would not be satisfactory. I am inclined to agree with his view. ' I am speaking without desiring to be bound by wliat I am saying as to the result; when I say that I think the government will arrive at the conclusion that in order to get the question before the courts it will be necessary to have an actual assessment made and taxation based on that assessment, and the question raised as to the validity of the taxation.


William Findlay Maclean: Then it is the intention of the government to support the view that the assessment began twenty years from the time the land was grantable, the same as the time the subsidy was payable? What is the contention you intend to maintain when you submit the question to the courts, as to when the exemption ceases ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is, as to whether it was twenty years from the time the land was actually'earned by the construction of the road ?


William Findlay Maclean: The government must have a policy on this matter, and the minister has assured the country that he intends to uphold the settlers' view, that the exemption ceased twenty years after the land was grantable, and my contention is that it was grantable at the very time the money was payable and was paid. When this case goes to court, does the minister intend to maintain the settlers' view, or what is the view he intends to maintain, or has he formed an opinion with regard to it ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is a matter we shall have to submit to the legal advisers of the Crown, upon the possibility of success. This question was asked in the House some time ago, and I then stated that we would take the advice of the law officers of the Crown as to what view most favourable to the people we could establish. The most favourable view would be that the twenty years ran from the date of the contract. I question very much if the law officers of the Crown will advise us to proceed on that basis. My impression is that it is extremely likely that they would advise us that we would not be particularly likely to succeed in that contention, but that we would be more likely to succeed in the contention that the exemp-


William Findlay Maclean: tion should date from the time the lands were earned. On these matters we shall be guided by consultation with the law officers of the Crown.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Where would a record be found of the lands patented from time to time ? Would it be in the report of the minister ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The record of all the Dominion lands patented is kept in the Department of the Interior. In the North-west Territories and in the province of Manitoba, where there is a land titles office under the Torrens system, the patents are forwarded to the registrar and recorded there also.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What report is there that would be available for examination by members of this House ? Would the record be kept in such a way that we could distinguish railway lands from ordinary lands taken up as homesteads ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It has not been customary to make a detailed statement in the report of the Department of the Interior of the lands actually patented. If it is desired by the House, a special blue-book could be issued containing them. It would involve a great deal of work.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why should it involve a very large amount of work ? You have the records in the department, and it would only mean a little copying.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: What I understand my hon. friend to suggest is that there should be a blue-book issued which would show the lands patented by the Crown, distinguishing the lands patented to railway companies and to private individuals.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: No, it was merely to ascertain what quantity was patented, and to what railway companies.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There would be no difficulty in putting in the annual report a statement simply giving the total quantities. The department at present shows the number of letters patent issued, and I think also the number of acres. I will make a note of the hon. gentleman's request and have the information put in the report, showing the quantity of land patented and the number of patents issued to the Canadian Pacific Railway and private individuals.


William Findlay Maclean: Has the Torrens land system proved a success in the North-west ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It is found very satisfactory. Indeed, it is the finest system of land transfer in the world. In Manitoba, after some years of experience, we found it possible to make some changes in matters of detail, which have

made the system as nearly perfect as any system of land transfer can be.
Further amount required for salaries of
the outside service	 $ 6,600
Further amount required for salaries of extra clerks at head office and advertising	 2,000
Amount required to provide for extra service in connection with Dominion lands, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act	 3,000


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How many more extra clerks are required in the outside service ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We have found the Dominion land service in the Territories has increased very much, owing to the great increase in settlement, and I found it necessary to employ sub-agents at different points, who have the power to take entries and save settlers the necessity of travelling a long distance.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Why do you insert these words ' notwithstanding anything to the contrary to the Civil Service Act ?' Is there anything in the Act preventing you employing temporarily any person you like in the service ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I could not pay any portion of the $3,000, under the law, to any member of the civil service. The Auditor General has ruled that no payment can be made to a member of the civil service outside of the salary voted him, unless his name is specially mentioned in connection with the vote.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: But the names are not mentioned ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: This is not paid any member of the civil' service, but to temporary assistants, and we could not employ a man to work six months in the department under the Act, even if the money were voted, unless he were permanently appointed.
Further amount required to complete surveys for the year, $30,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We sent out four parties last year, and the expenditure was estimated at $5,000 each for three of the parties, and $8,000 for Mr. Tyrrell's party. It is found, however, that the expenditure considerably exceeded the estimate, and we have to make up the deficiency.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: What are these surveyors doing ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Subdividing land for settlement. I may say that practically our work is confined to an attempt to keep ahead of settlement. We receive demands from different points saying that settlers are going in and we must send parties there to subdivide. It is impossible for us to have a general system covering the whole country, for we should spend on enormous amount of money and could not get the work done which requires to be done.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: How are these men paid- by the day ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: When these surveyors are employed by the day, the chief of the party, who must be a Dominion lands surveyor, qualified under the Dominion Lands Act, gets $5 a day. The assistant, who is not required to be a Dominion lands surveyor, but who must have professional qualifications, gets $3 a day. But a large portion of the work is done under contract. The rates are fixed by the surveyor general. They are not uniform.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What are the rates ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The surveyors under contract are paid so much a square mile. I cannot give the exact figures, but it usually runs about 7 cents per acre.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: And the surveyors get their keep in addition ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: When they do the work under contract, they supply themselves ; when we pay them by the day we pay expenses.


William Findlay Maclean: Has the attention of the minister been called to a proposition that new territory should be laid out in townships of circular form and the farms should be segments of circles, rather than the rectangular form now followed ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I do not think that anything of that kind has ever been brought officially before me. But I remember that a proposition was made and discussed not that the land should be laid out in circular form, that it should be laid out in such a way that roads running diagonally would touch the quarter sections at the crossing point ; and the idea was that the people should build their houses at the corner points, so that they could be together. My experience of the settlers of the North-west is that any one who attempted fatherly legislation of that kind would find himself disappointed, because the people will build their houses wherever they please, and not at any particular place because the government surveys the land in any particular way.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The -minister started to give us the names of those employed this year, but mentioned some exploring parties. Will those exploring parties be paid out of this fund ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Yes, all exploring parties under the department are paid for out of these general votes.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Can the hon. minister give us the names of those who are going out this summer ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We have not yet settled the list, and I could not make a definite statement. There are practically few changes in the men who go out. I may say that at the present time we are experiencing some difficulty in getting men of a high class, professionally speaking, to go on with the work of the department. One or two men have signified their willingness to go on at the present rate of pay. The fact is that operations of one kind and another are going on so rapidly that these men are offered higher pay than we are able to give them, and the surveyor general, with whom I have had some consultation on the matter, expresses some apprehension as to the position in which the department will he in this respect in two or three years. He is working on a plan to get young men into the service to be trained in the higher branches of the profession.
Miscellaneous-To supply seed grain to settlers whose crops were destroyed in 1900, to be secured by lien on land, $30,000.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The grain is being furnished only to new settlers and whom on account of the failure of crops last year have not the seed necessary for carrying on their operations. We are taking a lien for the amount of money, and the lien will be payable on or before the 1st of January next. That is, those who have not paid before will be expected to pay for it out of the next crop.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Is it a lien on the crop or on the land ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: On the land. Every person is required, before he can get seed grain under this vote, to make an affidavit that (1) he has made entry of a certain piece of land-describing it; (2) he has not been living on it and cultivating it longer than four years ; (3) he has so many acres prepared'for crop ; (4) he has not the necessary seed and no money to purchase the same ; (5) he agrees that the seed received from the government shall be sown on the land. We are endeavouring to hedge it around with safeguards. I think we are pretty sure to get our money back at the time arranged, unless there is a crop failure next season.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: The department is having some experience in that line, what has been the result ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think we have put this in such a shape that the people will understand that it is not a permanent loan. They are told by our agents that if they get this money they will be expected to pay it back. A large Mr. SIFTON.
number of new settlers have gone in there and spent all the money they had. Last year the crop was a total failure, indeed for 25 years there had not been so great a disaster. I think it is good economy for the government to give them one chance at least.
Farther amount required for the cost of investigations, demarkations and other astroni-mical work of the Department of the Interior, $7,500.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The principal thing for which we require an additional expenditure above what we had anticipated, is the fact that we are arriving at an arrangement with the United States whereby we will go on and demark the boundary line between the United States and Canada in British Columbia and the North-west Territories, at certain points where the mounds have been destroyed. We are not going to have an actual treaty, because a treaty is not necessary, but we will have an amicable arrangement under which there will not be a new boundary formed. We are simply going to re-mark the boundary where it has already been fixed.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What surveyors have you engaged on that work ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Mr. McCarthy and Mr. O'Hara have been assigned for that work. Mr. McCarthy is one of the oldest and very best officers of the department, and has had great experience as an explorer.
Amount, required to compensate Wm. Purdy for certain improvements of lots Nos. 75, 76 and 77 in the parish of St. Clement, $500.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is to cover a case in which, owing to a mistake by the officers of the department at the head office, they sold lands on which a squatter had settled, and this is to compensate him in part for the improvements that he made upon the land.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: While these items are going through, I would like to call the attention of the minister to a case that I brought to the attention of the department, but which probably did not come under his personal notice. Mr. R. J. Bull took up a homestead near Yorkton in 1882. In 1885 when the rebellion occurred, he turned out to assist in supressing the rebellion. I am not sure whether he became a volunteer or was teaming in supplies, but he contracted hip disease and has been disabled ever since. He has not received his homestead, which it appears to me he would be entitled to, because he lived there, not the whole three years, but a good deal over two years. But he performed his settlement duties for-, we will say, two years and a half, and perhaps more. But he did not comply strictly with the requirements of

the law, because he was prevented from doing so by having contracted a disease in the service of his country. Now, I see by the recent amendments to the Land Act that the government have provided for such cases, and I presume that it will be retroactive to this extent, that Mr. Bull, not having yet received his patent, could apply for his patent under that clause of the Land Act, and there are other conditions. But it is a case that, on its merits, I think would entitle Mr. Bull to the most generous consideration of the department. I am sure that it would be a compliance with the spirit of the law, it would be an act of justice to Mr. Bull, and certainly it could not be objected to by any one who is the most ardent stickler for complying with the letter of the regulations. I would ask the Minister of the Interior to give special consideration to Mr. Bull's claim. I left a letter regarding it with the department, but that letter has been returned to me. I would like it to receive the personal consideration of the minister, because I consider that these men who, in perilous times, have not hesitated to do their duty by their country, should receive justice at any rate. That is all that is required in the case of Mr. Bull.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I have so many cases of that kind coming before me that I cannot at present remember that this ease was one of them. I think I should probably have remembered it if it had been brought to my attention.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: It was during the present session of parliament.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Then it has not been brought to my personal attention. Certainly if the claim was mentioned to me, the circumstances were not. If the fact be that this man took up a homestead, that he bona fide lived on it for two years, and then about that time went away and volunteered to serve the government in putting down the rebellion, and was injured in that service and incapacitated, I perfectly agree with my hon. friend that he ought to get his patent. My deputy informs me that the land is still available. I will look into the matter further and try to see that his claim is recognized.
Further amount required for salaries and expenses connected with the commission apointed to inquire into half-breed claims in the Northwest Territories, out of which payment be made to A. J. A. McKenna and N. 0. Cot6 as halfbreed commissioners, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act, $14,465.


James Clancy: I want to ask the hon. minister if the work of that commission is coming to a close ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: It will be finished in the early part of the 155
summer. Mr. McKenna is going out to finally close it up within a few weeks.
Indian Affairs-Ontario and Quebec-'fMedical attendance, $3,021.69.


James Clancy: The hon. Minister of the Interior promised to give some information in regard to matters on Walpole Island, to which I called the hon. gentleman's attention, as he will remember, some time ago. Perhaps he can give the information now.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: My information in regard to the statement which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clancy) made upon the discussion of the; main estimates, on the 10th of April, is to the effect that the information in the department is contrary to the statement of the hon. gentleman, that the Indians on Walpole Island have objected to the appointment of Dr. Hay. A petition was received from the Indians in March, 1897, asking for the appointment of Dr. Hay, and in compliance with their wishes that appointment was made. The information which the department has from the Indians goes to show that the Indians avail themselves of the services of the medical officer when they are in need of a physician. That is the information we have received, but if the hon. gentleman has reason to believe that a different state of affairs exists, I presume the only way it can be settled will be by sending an inspector up to make a special visit.


James Clancy: I do not propose to take the responsibility of making a statement that would warrant the hon. gentleman in taking that course. In regard to the petition, that was one that was got up by a number of white persons, of course, very naturally, on behalf of Dr. Hay. If an appointment were to be made nobody would look for anything other than a supporter of the government should receive the appointment. But, the hon. gentleman should remember that the attending physician, Dr. Mitchell, who had been attending the Indians for many years, was dismissed under what is called offensive partisanship.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
Was not Dr. Mitchell the vice-president of the Conservative association ?


James Clancy: Quite so. That is quite an honourable position, and I have never heard that it was a crime.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
No.


James Clancy: It seems the hon. gentleman regarded this as a crime because he cut his head off.
The	MINISTER	OF	THE	INTERIOR.
No, it was no crime at all.


James Clancy: It is a matter of notoriety that the Indians refused to avail themselves



of the services of Dr. Hay. I need hardly say anything to the hon. gentleman, who knows better than I do from his long experience of the Indian character, that they will refuse to employ persons with whom they are not acquainted, even though they may be infinitely better. I have never discussed the matter with the agent, Mr. Mc-Kelvie, but a Methodist minister by the name of Rev. Mr. Pickard called my attention to it.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Is he a missionary on the reserve ?


James Clancy: Yes, he is the missionary of the Methodist Church. He called my attention to the fact that the Indians were dying in large numbers, and he made the request that I should write to the department. I did not do so, but I suggested that the better way would be for him to write to the department and state matters as he found them. I think my hon. friend is not quite right in stating that there has been no communication received by the department. The hon. acting Minister of the Interior, during the minister's absence, stated in this House last year, in answer to some inquiries made during the time the estimates were going through, that he had received a letter from Mr. Pickard on the subject. That letter must be in the department, and I think the hon. gentleman is not possessed this evening of the information bearing on the subject, as Mr. Pickard told me he had written to the department, and the hon. acting minister stated last year that he had received such a communication. Of course, that was not read, and I do not know the contents of it. But, the matter was thought of suflicient importance by Mr. Pickard to call the attention of the department to it. Mr. Pickard did not do it for the purpose of favouring any political friends, or to put Dr. Hay at a disadvantage, because Mr. Pickard is a warm supporter of the present government, and whatever he may have stated was entirely without any party colouring. I call the hon. gentleman's attention to it for the reason that in dismissing Dr. Mitchell without cause the department have not only done an injustice to him, but this action has been followed by serious results, because the Indians fail to employ Dr. Hay to a very great extent.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Did I understand the hon. gentleman to say that the acting minister last year said he had received a letter ?


James Clancy: Yes.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will have the ' Hansard' looked up and 1 will call his attention to it and see if such a letter has been received. When my hon. friend spoke upon this subject before I had a copy of his remarks made and sent to the officers of the department, and they have Mr. CLANCY.
provided me with a written statement to the effect that no communication has been received on the subject from the missionary on the reserve-that is, Mr. Pickard, I presume-and that the information from the agent was, that the Indians are availing themselves of Dr. Hay's services. It is simply a question of fact, and we will have to investigate it and see what the facts are. In order to avoid unnecessary expense, I will instruct the inspector on his next trip to that part of the country to make a special report, to see Mr. Pickard, and to get a statement from him in regard to it.


James Clancy: The hon. gentleman will not get the information by referring to ' Hansard ' of last year. The question was asked across the floor of the House, and the hon. acting Minister of the Interior stated that he was not quite sure what the facts were, but that he would look them up. He came over to my seat an evening or two afterwards and stated that he had such a communication. It would not appear in ' Hansard.'


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I will see that the inspector calls upon Mr. Pickard upon his next trip to that part of the country.
Indians, N.B., $2,000.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Could not these items be put in the main estimates quite as well as here ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: The Indian estimates are invariably prepared in the latter part of November, and they are considered by council in December and January. In this case, owing to the severity of the winter, there were more demands than usual on the department for medical assistance, and the officers could not foresee that.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: That might apply to medical assistance, but surely the necessity for seed grain could have been foreseen.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: We have a great deal of trouble in connection with these little accounts for medical services. In some cases we have doctors on small salaries and there is continual complaint.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In Ontarto most of your medical men are engaged by the year at an annual salary.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is the case when the Indians have a fund of their own, but in the maritime provinces they have no funds.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: In the Manitoulin Island, for instance, the doctor gets a salary and he furnishes the drugs.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: That is paid by the Indians out of their own funds.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: Do the Indians employ the doctor ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: No. The department appoints all the officers whether they are paid out of the funds of the Indian band or not.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: You have items here for Ontario as well as for the maritime provinces.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: There are certain Indians in Ontario who have no funds of their own and this vote applies to them.
North-west Territories-Relief of Indians outside treaty limits, $5,000.


Mr. BRITTON.: Last November reports came that the Indians at Oxford House, who are outside of the treaty limits, were suffering greatly and that some of them had starved to death. The Minister of the Interior stated that newspaper reports to that effect had reached his department, but that these reports were not confirmed. Apparently word of this has got to that part of the country, and I have been informed that there was a good deal of suffering last winter. I am told that relief was distributed by the Hudson Bay Company, and the cost refunded to the company by the government. There has been some dissatisfaction as to the manner in which this relief was applied, and I will ask that some further inquiry be made in this matter. My informant writes :
For some years back there has been a general falling off in the line of deer, rabbits, moose and beaver, which had hitherto been the support of the Indians as to food. Fish, too, have been failing in numbers. This has all been fully reported to the Indian Department.
Last winter, 1899-1900, was the hardest ever known in this country. Everywhere there was extremes of destitution. Oxford House, God's Lake, Island Lake, Front Lake, and in all the country tributary to these places there was starvation, nakedness and suffering of every kind. At Sandy Lake, tributary to Island Lake, nearly thirty people died of starvation. This I have from reliable witnesses. I have not as yet the details of these cases, but I am going there next June, and shall be particular to investigate the matter more thoroughly. Here, too, within ten miles of this house one man fell dead through sheer weakness after a long period of hunger. There was general distress, and at the same time the people were doing their best to provide for themselves.
Here and at God's Lake there has been some relief work done, but in no case has it been adequate to prevent suffering to almost extreme degrees, and the worst is yet to come. Supplies are now exhausted.
There is one point to which, I think, very grave exception should be taken, and that is the matter of relief is entirely in the hands of the Hudson's Bay Company, and they are certainly using the advantage to help those Indians who go to the bush for the winter, and those who desire to be near the missionary all winter are left to shift pretty much for themselves.
I am informed that there was some discrimination by the Hudson Bay Company 155}
against the Indians who remained at home during the winter and in favour of those who went to the bush. I am not, of course, familiar with the particulars, but I understand that some of the Indians prefer to remain in camp near the mission.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: Most of them do.


Byron Moffatt Britton: I suppose these would be called lazy Indians, but at all events my informant states that they were not assisted as they ought to have been.


Thomas Osborne Davis: Would the hon. gentleman * (Mr. Brittbn) tell us who the writer of this letter is ? Is he a missionary ? There are times when there is a little friction between the missionaries and the Hudson Bay Company ; but my experience of twenty-two years in the country, is that the Hudson Bay . Company never allow the Indians to starve to death. In hard times they give the Indians assistance and take their chances on the hunt of the following year to enable the Indians to pay them.


Byron Moffatt Britton: All I ask is that inquiry should be made, because it is stated that starvation has taken place there, and that some of the Indians moved away to a point on Lake Winnipeg.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: I think my hon. friend has perhaps stumbled on correct information, when he says that discrimination was made between the Indians who went out to work in winter and the Indians who stayed in camp. Probably the officers of the company refused assistance to those who refused to avail themselves of offers to earn money. However, that is a surmise. I may say to the committee that I have made no change in the system that has been pursued for years in the department. While it has its faults, it is probably the best that could be adopted for the purpose of meeting a very difficult set of circumstances. There is a vast tract of country in the remoter districts in which the government have no agents, and in which the expense of keeping agents for the purpose of affording relief in odd years when relief might bo required, would be enormous. It would amount to keeping up an immense establishment, and the cost of transporting supplies would he out of all reason. The government made this arrangement some years ago with the Hudson Bay Company. That company has its posts at nearly all these remote points, and it undertakes to see, as far as possible) that there is no actual starvation where it has supplies to prevent it. I want to say to my hon. friends that great care has to be exercised in dealing with the Indians, because if you create the impression in their minds that ail they have to do is to say they are hungry, to have food supplied to them, they will be foun^

at the Hudson Bay Company's posts every day in the year, and you will incur endless trouble. The Hudson Bay Company, who . have had a great deal of experience in dealing with Indians, have an understanding with the government that wherever they think there is a necessity, they give the Indians assistance, for which they send us a bill at the end of the year ; and the bills on their face show that care has been exercised, and that only what has been actually necessary has been done. For instance, one bill is for $118.93, another for -	$418.07, another for $108.50, and so on, the
total amount being $4,393.72. It is impossible for me to say anything at all as to the correctness of my hon. friend's information without making inquiry. There will be some difficulty in ascertaining whether there is any real foundation for the complaint or not, because it is not easy to get an exact statement of the facts, and the officers of the Hudson Bay Company will say that they exercised their discretion to the best of their ability. However, I will bring the matter to the attention of the Indian commissioner at Winnipeg, and if my hon. friend cares to give me, confidentially, a copy of that portion of the letter which contains the statement of facts, I will bring it to the attention of the Indian commissioner, and we will endeavour to get at the facts.
To provide for payment of allowance to J. A. Macrae when acting as half-breed and Indian commissioner for treaty No. 8, notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act, $885.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: During the last two or three years we have sent two or three members of the civil service away to the north of Edmonton on work connected with new treaties. The service is an important one, and we have paid them an extra allowance while they have been away. Mr. Macrae, who has been inspector of the department for many years, was sent up on that work last year, and this vote is to give him the same allowance as was given to the other commissioners.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What regular pay do you give him in addition to his regular salary ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.: $5 a day and his expenses.
Weights, Measures, Gas and Electric Light- Salaries-Further amount required, $1,200.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: This is made up as follows : Jarvis, Hamilton, increase granted, but not provided for in estimates, $100; Winsor, Ottawa, the same thing, $100 ; Wright, Toronto, the same thing, $50; Francis, Winnipeg, the same thing, $100 ; total for increased salaries in weights and measures, $350. In gas : McPhie, Hamilton, new appointment,


Clifford Sifton: due to increased work, $600 ; Cahill, increase granted, but not provided for in estimates, $50 ; Ritchie, Halifax, new appointment, due to increased work, $500; total, $1,150. Less increase voted, but not given, $100; R. IC. Brace, Charlottetown, services dispensed with, $200 ; total, $300. This leaves a balance of $1,200.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: What were Brace's services dispensed with for ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Because the work could be done by the inspector of weights and measures, and has been done by him ever since, with the assistance of the inspector at Halifax. He gets no additional salary.


Nathaniel Clarke Wallace: I understand that somebody else is performing the duties and he is paid for it ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: No.


William Findlay Maclean: Has the hon. minister made any change in the regulations covering the inspection of meters used for electricity ? I have heard complaints that the owners of the electric meters are not allowed to have a representative present when these meters are being tested.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: We have sent out circulars providing for the presence of a representative of the owners of the meters.
Weights, Measures, Gas and Electric Light- Further amount required for contingencies, $6,000.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Owing to the increase in elevator and track scales, the expenses of inspection are largely increased. The revenue has increased, in round numbers, in like manner from $48,000 to $52,000. The expenditure last year was $69,000 as against $64,000 the previous year. The cost of collection last year was $1.30 ; in 1899, it was $1.32 ; in 1898, $1.41 ; in 1897, $1.82. In the case of gas and electric lights, this additional sum is due to the extension of the electric light inspection service. The revenue has likewise increased.
Amount required in connection with the office of warehouse commissioner and other expenditure connected with the inspection of grain, and to meet deficiency in inspection fees owing to short crop in Manitoba and North-west Territories, $7,000.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: This is for all over Canada. Upon the recommendation of the royal commission which recently sat in Montreal, it is proposed to place inspectors and deputy Inspectors on salary and credit the fees to consolidated revenue. Should this system go into effect before the end of the fiscal year, an additional amount will be required to meet the expenditure. East of Port

Arthur it is expected that the expenditure *will be met by the fees collected. In Manitoba district, owing to the short crop last season, the receipts will not meet the expenditure to the end of June next, and a further amount is required.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: What salaries are you paying the inspectors now ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: In Manitoba we are paying David Horn, chief inspector at Winnipeg, $4,000. We are paying F. E. Gibbs at Fort William $3,500, and an assistant inspector at $1,500. We are payiug the two assistant inspectors at Winnipeg $1,200 and $1,500 respectively.
Grain Commission, Montreal-Salaries, & c., $2,750.


Robert Laird Borden: Has that report
been brought down ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Yes. It was laid before the House a month ago.


Robert Laird Borden: Has it been printed ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: I believe not.


Robert Laird Borden: Can the hon. minister give us in a few words the result of that investigation 7


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Some complaints were made with regard to the inspection of grain in Montreal. The matter was taken up by Lord Strathcona, and the department was advised to hold an inquiry. Commissioners were appointed, Mr. Horn, of Winnipeg, Mr. Parmelee, the Deputy Minister of Trade and Commerce, and Mr. Crane, of Montreal. Witnesses were examined, and after they had disposed of the complaints, the commissioners made a report, which is embodied in the Bill I had the honour of presenting to-day-the appointment of a chief inspector, inspectors and sub-inspectors for that part of the Dominion east of Port Arthur, the salaries of these officers to be paid by the government, and the fees to be collected from the shippers to go to consolidated revenue.


Robert Laird Borden: The complaint was that the inspection had not been sufficiently thorough.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: Yes.


Robert Laird Borden: There was some foundation for that complaint ?


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: The inspection was considered satisfactory to a certain extent; but there was only one inspector in Montreal, and the inspection was more in the hands of the shipper than [DOT]of independent parties.
Inspections of Staples-Additional amount required for salaries, $5,000.


The MINISTER OF INLAND REVENUE.: This is to pay the expense of inspection. On account of the short crop in Manitoba we had to ask for a Governor General's warrant for $7,000, and this $5,000 is needed to cover the balance which will become due up to the 1st of June next.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE.: Somebody has suggested that the further supplementary estimates might be proceeded with. But we have almost cleared up the main estimates and the supplementaries for the present year ; and intimation has been made that a number of gentlemen, who, perhaps, did not get to bed very early yesterday wish to make the cheerful journey to Quebec tomorrow.
Some resolutions reported.
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) moved the adjournment of the House.


Robert Laird Borden: What business may we expect for Monday ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: I am very much afraid that on Monday next, the only business that we shall have will be private Bills. They are the first order.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned at 10.50 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, May 13, 1901.