1901-03-11

FIRST READINGS.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 56) respecting the Columbia and Kootenay Railway and Navigation Company.-Mr. Galliher.
Bill (No. 57) to incorporate the Crow's Nest Southern Railway Company.-Mr. Galliher.
Bill (No. 58) to incorporate the Kootenay and Arrowhead Railway Company.-Mr. Galliher.
Bill (No. 59) to incorporate the Similka-meen and Keremeos Railway Company.

 Mr. Galliher.	.
Bill (No. 60) to incorporate the United Empire Life Insurance Company.-Mr. Birkett.
Bill (No. 61) respecting the W. C. Edwards Company, Ltd.-Mr. Rosamond.
Bill (No. 62) to incorporate the Pontiac Colonization Railway Company.-Mr. Murray.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 6) an Act respecting the Supreme Court of the Independent Order of Forest-ters, and to change its name to the Independent Order of Foresters.-Mr. Ernmer-son.

[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 40) an Act respecting the British Yukon Railway Company.-Mr. Fraser.
Bill (No. 44) an Act respecting the Ottawa and Gatineau Railway Company, and to change its name to ' The Ottawa, Gatineau and Western Railway Company.-Mr. Champagne.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. BELL (Pictou)-by Mr. Clarke-asked :
1.	What postmasters in the county of Pictou have been dismissed since November 6, 1900, and who have been appointed to fill vacancies so created?
2.	What contracts for carriage of mails to or from points in the county of Pictou, have been made since November 6, 1900?
3.	In how many cases and for what sums have
these been made without advertising for tenders?	.
Hon. JAMES SUTHERLAND.: I beg to reply :
2	& 3. The following contracts or agreements for carrying mails to or from points in the county of Pictou have been made since the 6th November, 1900 :-


MOUNTAIN ROAD AND RIVER JOHN.
[Stage Direction]
Semi-weekly-4 miles.
This contract having expired on the 31st December, 1900, notices were issued on the 15th October, 1900, inviting tenders to be received at the department on the 23rd November for a new contract for four years from the 1st January, 1901, and the tender of Robert Holt at $33, being the lowest, was accepted.

[Stage Direction]
Semi-daily-41 miles.
Notices were issued on the 13th November, 1896, inviting tenders to be received at the department on the 25th December, 1896. for a new contract for four years, to date from the 1st January, 1897, and the tender of A. Murray at $140.85, being the lowest, was accepted. Mr. Murray's contract having expired on the 31st December last, and it having been reported to me that the service had been satisfactorily performed and the conditions advantageous to the public interest, acting under the provisions of section 2 of clause 61 of the Postal Act, I authorized the renewal of this contract with Mr. Murray for a further term of four years, from the 1st January, 1901.

[Stage Direction]
Tri-weekly-7J miles.
Notices were issued on the 18th December, 1896, inviting tenders to be received at the department on the 5th February, 1897, for a new contract for four years to date from the 1st April, 1897, and the tender of N. McKenzie at $150, being the only one received, was accepted. Mr. McKenzie's contract will expire on the 31st March next, and it having been reported to me that the service has been satisfactorily performed, and the conditions advantageous to the public interest, and acting under the provisions of section 2 of clause 61 of the Postal Act, I authorized the renewal of this contract with Mr. McKenzie for a further term of four years, from the 1st April, 1901.

[Stage Direction]
Semi-weekly-2 miles.
Notices were issued on the 18th September, 1896, inviting tenders to be received at the department on the 6th November, 1896, for a new contract for four years to date from 1st January, 1897, and the tender of D. Meiklefield at $18, being the lowest, was accepted. Mr. Meiklefleld's contract expired on the 31st December, 1900, and it having been reported to me that the service had been satisfactorily performed, and the conditions advantageous to the public interest, and acting under the provisions of section 2 of clause 61 of the Postal Act, I authorized the renewal of this contract with Mr. Meiklefield for a further term of four years, from the 1st January, 1901.

[Stage Direction]
Tri-weekly-4 miles.
Notices were issued on the 18th December, 1896, inviting tenders to be received at the department on the 5th February, 1897, for a new contract for four years, to date from the 1st April, 1897, and the tender of G. Clark at $69, being the lowest, was accepted. Mr. Clark's contract will expire on the 31st March next, and it having been reported to me that the service has been satisfactorily performed, and the conditions advantageous to the public interest, and acting under the provisions of section 2 of clause 61 of the Postal Act, I have authorized the renewal of this contract with Mr. Clark for a further term of four years, from the 1st April, 1901.

[Stage Direction]
Tri-weekly-10 miles.
Notices were issued on the 18th December, 1896, inviting tenders to be received at the department on the 5th February, 1897, for a new contract for four years, to date from the 1st April, 1897, and the tender of W. Gammon at $69, being the lowest, was accepted. Mr. Gammon's contract will terminate on the 31st March, 1901, and acting under section 58 of the Postal Act, which provides that the Postmaster General may, in special cases, enter into contracts under $200 by private agreement, if he conceives that the public interest will be promoted by such a course, I have authorized that a contract be made with Mr. John Ritchie, on the same terms and conditions, for a further term of four years, from the 1st April, 1901.

[Stage Direction]
Semi-daily-1 mile.
Notices were issued on the 18th December, 1896, inviting tenders to be received at the department on the 5th February, 1897, for a new contract for four years to date from the 1st April, 1897, and the tender of W. Gammon at $39, being the lowest, was accepted. Mr. Gammon's contract will terminate on the 31st March, 1901, and acting under section 58 of the Postal Act, which provides that the Postmaster General may. in special cases, enter into contracts under $200, by private agreement, if he conceives that the public interest will be promoted by such a course, I have authorized that a contract be made with Mr. John Ritchie on the same terms and conditions, for a further term of four years, from the 1st April, 1901.

[Stage Direction]
Daily-15i miles.
This contract being about to expire on the 31st December, 1900, inquiries were set on foot as to the best arrangement for the service in the future, and as these were
[Stage Direction]
not completed when the contract expired, a temporary agreement was made under section 62 of the Post Office Act, with the former contractor, at the lowest rate which could be obtained, viz.: $400 per annum, and notices were issued on the 4th January, 1901, inviting tenders to be received at the department on the 22nd February, 1901, for a new contract for four years, from 1st April, 1901. The lowest tender has been accepted, subject to inquiry as to the competency of the party tendering,

[Stage Direction]
Semi-daily-1J miles.
Notices were issued on the 18th September, 1896, inviting tenders to be received at the department on the 5th November, 1896, for a contract for four years, from the 1st January, 1897, and the tender of J. W. Church at $149, being the lowest, was accepted. Mr. Church's contract having expired on the 31st December, 1900, and it having been reported to me that the service was satisfactorily performed, and advantageous to the public interest, acting under the provision of section 2 of clause 61 of the Postal Act, I authorized a renewal of this contract with Mr. Church for a further term of four years, but Mr. Church having declined to enter into a new contract for four years, was willing to continue temporarily on the same terms and conditions until permanent arrangements were made, and the department arranged with him accordingly.
The matter is at present engaging the attention of the department.

[Stage Direction]
Daily-14 miles.
This contract being about to expire on the 31st December, 1900, inquiries were set on foot as to the best arrangement for the service in the future. These were not completed when the contract expired. A temporary agreement was made under section 62 of the Post Office Act, with the former contractor, at the lowest rate which could be obtained, viz. : $197.80 per annum.
The matter is still engaging the attention of the department.

[Stage Direction]
Daily-14 miles.
This contract having expired on the 30th June, 1900, notices were issued on the 13th April, 1900, inviting tenders to be received at the department on the 25th May, 1900. The lowest tender was that of W. A. Berry at $420 per annum. This was considered by the department too high, and the inspector was instructed to obtain a lower rate. The inspector reported that Mr. Berry would not reduce his tender, and that he could not obtain a lower rate, and the contract having expired on the 30th June, a tem-Mr. SUTHERLAND (Oxford).
porary agreement was made under section 62 of the Post Office Act with Mr. Rae, the contractor, at $415, the lowest sum for which the service could be obtained, and on the 6th December, the tender of Mr. Berry at $400 per annum was accepted. Mr. Berry declined the contract on the ground that he was not in a position at that time to undertake the service. Mr. Rae, who had been carrying on the service for $414, since the expiration of the contract on the 30th June, refused to go on after the 31st December, unless he was paid at the rate of the tender he made to the department in May, that is, $445 per annum, and he has been paid at that rate since that time.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).: I did not notice that the hon. gentleman answered the first paragraph of the question.


Hon. Mr. SUTHERLAND.: I think that was answered on a previous occasion, but this being a matter involving a good deal of preparation, was held over. The answer to the first part will be found in ' Hansard.'


MAIL SERVICE-CLARENCEVILLE AND LA-COLLE STATION.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. POPE-by Mr. Ingram-asked :
Why does the mail carrier to and from Clarence village and Lacolle station receive $93 a year* more than his tender reads for ?
James Sutherland: The contractor for the mail service between Clarenceville and Lacolle railway station is not paid anything more than the amount for which he tendered for the service. This service was last up to tender in 1898, notices being issued on the 15th July, and tenders due to be opened on the 26th August. The service is daily each way over a route four miles in length, and the rate paid pi'ior to that period was $240 a year. The only tender received was from Mr. M. J. Bur wort at $313 a year. The department regarding this tender as too high, directed the inspector to see if a lower rate could possibly be obtained. The inspector after inquiry reported that no lower rate could be obtained, the tenderer explaining that he had to pay fifty cents per day, or $156.60 a year, for tolls. The inspector, also, stated that every effort had been made to secure offers for the service, since, besides posting up the notices in all public places, all those likely to tender were notified by him directly of the bidding ; but as the only tenderer was the late contractor, who enjoyed the confidence of the public, no person desired to bid against him. The inspector also reported that there was a railway in course of construction which would pass near Clarenceville and might affect the mail service, and lie recommended that instead of a regular contract a temporary agreement be made with Mr. Burwort at the rate of his tender, viz. : $313 a year, which was done. The service is still being carried on under the terms of that agreement.


COLONIZATION OF ABANDONED LANDS, MANITOBA AND N.W.T.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. DOUGLAS-by Mr. McCreary-asked :
1.	What steps, if any, have been taken by the government during 1899 and 1900 to bring the abandoned lands of Manitoba and the Northwest Territories now in the hands of colonization companies into the market for sale or settlement by homestead entry ?
2.	What number of patents have been issued by the Department of the Interior to these companies during the years 1899 and 1900?
3.	What special difficulty stands in the way of issuing such patents?
4.	What amount of such land has by the action of the Interior Department during these years been made liable to taxation?
5.	Will any action be taken by the government this session so to amend section 44 of the Dominion Colonization Act, so as to enforce the provisions of the same in all colonization companies and thus protect the interests of the settlers and the rights of the Crown?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton) :: 1.	The government, in order to bring the abandoned lands in Manitoba and the North-west Territories, now in the hands of companies or individuals who have made advances to persons, under clause 44 of the Dominion Lands Act, into the market for sale or settlement by homestead entry, has notified such companies and individuals that under the provisions of the said Act they are bound to place a bona fide settler on such homestead by the sale thereof to such settler or otherwise within two years from the date of such patent, and in default of so doing within the said period shall be bound and obliged, on demand, to sell the said homestead to any person willing to become a bona fide settler thereon, for such sum of money as is sufficient to pay the amount of such charge and interest, and the expenses incurred by the patentee in obtaining such patent and in retaining the homestead.
The department has notified the persons interested in pursuance of the condition named, which, in case of refusal will mean the absolute forfeiture of the property and all claims thereon, and of the patent or other title thereto.
2.	Ninety-four patents, covering an area of 15,040 acres, to the several companies and individuals authorized under clause 44 of the Dominion Lands Act.
3.	There is no special difficulty. The department requires a statutory declaration showing a compliance with the terms of the Act before taking steps to issue patent.
4.	It is assumed that all the lands patented are liable to taxation.
5.	It is not thought advisable, in view of the fact that advances were made to the settlers under its provisions, to amend the Act this session, but it is the intention of the department to take necessary steps to enforce a compliance with the conditions referred to.


MURRAY AND ROSS-LIQUOR PERMIT.
[Stage Direction]
Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER-by Hon. Mr. Prior-asked :
Referring to the following letter :-
Ottawa, April 20, 1900. To the Chief License Inspector,
Dawson City.
Sir,-Messrs. Murray and Ross have satisfied me that they are the holders of a permit from Mr. Ogilvie under which they purchased liquor for shipment, and that in accordance with the rule adopted they are entitled to take in the amount purchased. You will therefore be good enough to admit for this firm 6,400 gallons liquor under proof, on payment of the fees provided by law.
Yours truly,
(Sgd.) JAMES SUTHERLAND,
Acting Minister of the Interior.
1.	What are the full names of Messrs. Ross and Murray?
2.	What was the date of the ' permit from Mr. Ogilvie ' ?
3.	What amount of liquor did the permit from Mr. Ogilvie cover?
4.	By what means did Messrs. Murray and Ross satisfy the acting Minister of the Interior that they were holders of a permit, as stated?
5.	Did correspondence take place on the subject?
6.	If correspondence took place, why has it not been brought down to this House, as ordered on 12th February, 1901?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton) :: 1 and 2. The department has no record of the full names of Messrs. Ross and Murray, or of the date of the permit from Mr. Ogilvie.
3.	Ten thousand gallons.
4.	Statement was made to the acting minister which satisfied him of the facts as set out in the letter.
5 and 6. There is no correspondence on the subject.


PERMIT TO H. J. LOCKYER.
[Stage Direction]
Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER-by Hon. Mr. Prior-asked :
Referring to letter of September 1, 1900, of acting Minister of the Interior to license inspector, Yukon territory-
1.	On what ground was this permit given to Mr. H. J. Lockyer?
2.	Was there any correspondence between the applicant and the department respecting the permit ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton) :: 1.	This permit was granted to Mr. H. J. Lockyer, because the acting minister in his discretion considered Mr. Lockyer a proper person to receive it.
2.	No.


DEPOT HARBOUR BREAKWATER.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. McCORMICK-by Mr. Ingram-asked:
Who has been awarded the contract for construction of locks or breakwater at Depot Harbour?
What is the price of lowest tenderer?
fiShe MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS '(Hon. J. Israel Tarte). No contract lias been awarded yet.

Mr. WILMOT asked :: 1.	Is G. W. McDonald lightkeeper at Musquash Island, Queen's county, N.B.?
2.	If not, when was he dismissed, and for what reason?


The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).: In the absence of the bon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Hon. Sir Louis Davies), I would give the answer as follows :
1.	No.
2.	Mr. Whitfield McDonald, keeper of the light at Musquash island, N.B., was dismissed by order in council, dated 19th January last, because he was an exceedingly offensive political partisan.


YUKON-GAMBLING HOUSES AND DISREPUTABLE SALOONS.
[Stage Direction]
Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER-by Hon. Mr. Prior-asked :
1.	Is the following letter authentic?
Dear Sir,-I have read a good many complaints, most of them of a private character, in regard to the fact that women of bad repute are permitted to be employed in the bar-rooms and drinking places, where they are used for the purpose of decoying people into such places, and in regard to the lack of effort in suppressing gambling; it is also charged that the fact of fining gamblers is indirectly a license to them to continue their operations. I have not heretofore interfered in this matter, because it seemed to me that yourself, the commanding officer of the Mounted Police, should have been able to decide on what ought to have been done, but from information which I have received,
* it seems to me that a considerable increase in stringency is required. I see no reason why what is known as dancing halls, but which are 'in reality, as I understand it, bar-rooms with *women selling liquor, should not be summarily suppressed. The same remark applies to the systematic and open gambling. I desire, therefore, that you will take the necessary steps to carry out these views without delay.
I am sending a copy of this letter to the commanding officer of the Mounted Police, with whom, no doubt, you will require to consult, but who will be directly charged with the carrying out of the above instructions. It would be 'just as well for you, after the receipt of this letter, to intimate that the matter has been considered, and a resolution has been arrived at on the above lines, so that the people gene- i Mr. -SIFTON.
rally will understand what is going to be done, and govern themselves accordingly.
Yours truly,

[Stage Direction]
Minister of the Interior.
(a)	If so, what is its date?
(b)	Has any report been received showing what action has been taken on said letter?
(c)	If such report has been received, will steps he taken to cause it to he laid before the House ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton) :: 1. A letter to the effect of that set out was written by me to Mr. Ogilvie. It is not quoted with absolute correctness.
(a)	Date of letter 14tb August, 1900.
(b)	A report has been received from the commanding officer of the mounted police.
(c)	The papers will be brought down within a day or two.


YUKON-ROAD AND BRIDGE CONSTRUCTION
[Stage Direction]
Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER-by Hon. Mr. Prior-asked :
1.	Is the government aware that the commissioner of the Yukon was reported by the press to have announced, in the fall of 1900, to the residents of White Horse, in regard to the request for the construction of roads, trails, &c., that the only revenue available for such purposes is that derived from the liquor traffic, through the sale of permits, by fines, license, &e.?
2.	Would such a statement be substantially correct ? If not, from what sources is such a revenue derived?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton) :: 1.	No. The government is not aware of such fact.
2.	The statement would be incorrect, inasmuch as the government of Canada expends a very large amount annually in the construction of roads and bridges in the Yukon territory.


PREFERENTIAL TARIFF-CERTIFICATE OF PRODUCTION.
Mr. CLARKE asked :: What. proportion of the goods-that have been entered under the preferential tariff has a certificate attached to the customs entries, to the effect that a portion of such goods has been manufactured in other countries than Great Britain and the British colonies?


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS (Hon. Wm. Paterson).: A separate invoice, covering only articles entitled to preferential entry, is required under the preferential tariff. In the certificate prescribed to be made on tlie invoice, the exporter certifies that all the articles included in the invoice are bona fide tbe produce or manufacture of one or more countries (naming them) entitled in Canada to tbe benefits of the British preferential tariff, and that a substantial portion of the labour of one or more of such
countries lias entered into the production of every manufactured article included in the said invoice to the extent in each article of not less than one-fourth of the value of every such article in its present condition ready for export to Canada. There is no certificate attached to the invoice (or customs entry) to the effect that a portion of such goods has been manufactured in other countries than Great Britain and the British colonies.


ISSUES OF SCRIP.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. OSLER-by Mr. Clarke-asked :
1.	What amount of scrip has been issued to half-breeds and others in Manitoba and the North-west Territories, in each of the years since 1896 ?
2.	What is the total amount of scrip received by the government in payment of Dominion lands, in each of the years since 1896 ?
3.	What is the total amount of scrip now outstanding ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton) :: 1.
Scrip Issued. Cash Scrip. Land Scrip.
Acres.
1896- 7	$ 7,616 64		
1897-	8	
8,113	13	4801898-	9	
10,480	54	2401899-	1900	
282,393	97	45,440
July 1, 1900, to
Feb. 28, 1901 558,262 27	441,536
Total amount

 

of scrip received	$866,Soo 55	487,696
2.
1896- 7	$ 19,429 38
1897-	8	
29,428	531898-	9	
21,307	581899-	1900	
92,656	94July 1,1900, to Feb. 28,'01	*268,990	65

3.	Amount of cash scrip outstanding on February 28th, 1901, is $538,026.87, including $102,973.40 prior to 1st July, 1896.
Amount of land scrip outstanding on February 28th, 1901, is 339,260 acres, including 23,400 acres prior to 1st July, 1896.
* February is not quite complete. There are a certain number of Dominion Lands Agents' returns that have not yet reached the department.


EXPORTS OF ANIMALS TO GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES.
Mr. HENDERSON asked :: 1.	What was the number of cattle, over one year old, produce of Canada, exported to Great Britain yearly, from 1894 to 1900, inclusive, and the total value and average price for each of said years ?
2.	What was the number of cattle, over one year old, produce of Canada, exported to the United States yearly, from 1894 to 1900, inclusive, and the total value and average price for each of said years ?


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS (Hon. Wm. Paterson).: Statement showing the number and value of cattle, over one year old, the produce of Canada, exported to Great Britain and to the United States respectively ; the value and average price per year, during the fiscal years, 1894, 1895, 1896, 1897, 189S, 1899, and 1900 respectively :
Fiscal Year.	Exported to Great Britain.	Average price per head.	Exported to United States.	Average price per head.Number.	V alue.	Number.	V alue.	1894	
1896	
1897	
1898	
1899	
1900	
Totals	80,531 85,863 97.005 119,998 122,091 115,311 114.405	$ 6 316,373 6,797,615 6,814,141 6,454,029 7,403,915 7,121,633 7,564,257	$ cts. 78	43 79	17 70 24 53 79 60	64 61	76 66 12	219 340 223 31,310 75.674 68,8 4 57,064	8 3,139 17,806 5,256 479,525 1,131,447 1,055,223 1,026,039	S cts. 14	34 51 43 23 57 15	31 14	95 15	34 17 98735,204	48,471,963	65 93	233,660	3,718,435	15 91


BOUNTY ON PIG IRON.
Mr. HENDERSON asked :: 1.	What was the .total amount of bounty paid by the Dominion government for the manufacture of pig iron from native ore in each of the 404
years ending June 30, 1896, 1897, 1898, 1899 and 1900, and also for the six months ending December 31, 1900 ?
2. What was the total amount paid as bounty on pig iron made from foreign ores for each of said years, and for the last six months of year 1900 ?

125G
3. What was the total amount paid as bounty on steel for each of said years, and for six months of year 1900 ?


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS (Hon. Wm. Paterson) :: 
PRODUCTS OF ANIMALS-IMPORTATIONS INTO THE UNITED KINGDOM.
Mr. HENDERSON asked :: 1.	What quantities of butter, cheese, bacon, hams, and eggs respectively were imported into the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland from all other countries in each of the years 1898, 1899 and 1900 ; also the value in each case for each of said years ?
2.	How much of each of said articles so imported came from Victoria, New South Wales, and New Zealand respectively, and the values thereof for each of the years 1898, 1899 and 1900?


The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE (Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright).: This
is a question which I am afraid cannot be answered by the government. We have not any information respecting the trade returns of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland which is not public property and accessible in all quarters. Moreover, the mode of making up those returns differs somewhat from our own ; so I am afraid I will be unable to comply with the request of the hon. gentleman.
tion ; also 128 swine (in number) admitted free for improvement of stock. The quantity of lard amounted to 4,826,103 pounds; of pork, 17,739,082 pounds, and of bacon and hams, 4,414,321 pounds. During the fiscal year 1900, the quantity of hogs imported from the United States amounted to 183,703 pounds, and in addition 47 swine (in number) for improvement of stock. The quantity of lard imported was 687,958 pounds ; of pork, 5,774,432 pounds, and of bacon and hams, 5,273,434 pounds.
EXPORTS OF BUTTER, CHEESE, &c.
Mr. HENDERSON asked ;
1.	How many pounds of butter, cheese, bacon and ham respectively, produce of Canada, were exported to Great Britain in each of the three years 1898, 1899 and 1900; also the value in each case for each of said years?
2.	How many dozen of eggs, produce of Canada, were exported to Great Britain in each of the three years 1898, 1899 and 1900, and the total value for each of said years?


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS (Hon. Wm. Paterson).: Statement showing quantities and values of butter, cheese, &c., exported (home produce) from Canada to Great Britain during the years ended June 30, 1898 to 1900, inclusive ; from Canadian returns :
Years ended June 30,
1898.	1899.	1900.Butter..	Lbs.	10,461,823	19,120,034	24,317,436"	$	1,915,550	3,526,007	4,947,000Cheese..	Lbs.	196,220,771	189,259,989	185,627,757"	$	17,522,681	16,718,418	19,812,670


Eggs ...: 10,280,466	9,564,220	10,109,383" 	$	1,244,051	1,254,392	1,447,030Bacon...	Lbs.	76,779,313	111,820,279	132,156,051" .	$	7,283,624	9,948,324	12,469,209Hams...	Lbs.	8,429,249	4,752,854	2,793,078$	745,858	459,268	279,966


YUKON TERRITORY-HOUSTON PERMIT.
Mr. HENDERSON asked :: What was the total weight in pounds of all hogs and hog products, viz., hogs, lard, pork, bacon and hams imported into Canada from the United States in the year 1890 ; also for the year 1900 ?


The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS (Hon. Wm. Paterson).: The weight in pounds, so far as hogs are concerned, cannot be given. During the fiscal year 1890 there were hogs to the value of $82,964 imported from the United States, no quantity being given in the returns of that date. In addition to the foregoing, there were 7,250,861 pounds of swine to be slaughtered in bond for exporta-Mr. HENDERSON.
Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER-by Hon. Mr. Prior-asked :
Referring to Houston permit (863 Hansard, 1901), is there any report, communication or correspondence respecting it not brought down to this House.


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: Yes. The papers will be brought down if desired.


YUKON TERRITORY-IMPORTATION OF LIQUOR.
[Stage Direction]
Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER-by Hon. Mr. Prior-asked :
[Stage Direction]
1.	Has the government, or any department thereof, knowledge of the amount of beer or
other liquor shipped by J. H. Russell or the Atlin Brewing Company of Glenora, into the Yukon district in 1900?
2.	If so, under what authority were the shipments made?
3.	What amount of beer or other liquor was so shipped?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton) :: 1.	J. H. Russell, of Atlin. was granted a permit to import into the Yukon territory
1,000	gallons of beer, on August 8, 1900. No further information on the subject is in the possession of the government.


DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE-PATENT BRANCH.
Mr. HUGHES (Victoria) asked :: (a)	What has been the revenue ofl the patent branch of the Agriculture Department each year since 1891, inclusive?
(b)	What has been the cost of the patent branch each year since 1891, inclusive?
(c)	What has become of the balance of the revenue, if any, each year?
(d)	How many examiners are there now in the patent branch?
(e)	(1) Is each examiner abreast with his work, or (2) are there any applications awaiting attention ? (3) If there are any awaiting, how many are they in number? (4) How long in arrears is the work, viz.: What is the date of the last applications passed upon in the regular course?
(f)	Is it the intention of the government or of the Minister of Agriculture to expend upon the patent branch each year for the future the revenue derived therefrom?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sidney A. Fisher) :: (a.) I have the honour to submit the following figures, taken from the minister's report :
Revenue. Expenditure. Surplus.
1891		 $ 77,723 63 $41,394 41 $36,329 22
1892	
84,720	83	39,643	37	45,077	461893	
62,344	68	36,116	70	26,227	981894	
78,777	02	38,010	71	40,766	311895	
84,603	26	36,254	53	48,357	731896	
92,498	81	39,840	68	52,658	131897	
100,531	89	36,335	34	64,196	551898	
97,522	70	34,402	17	63,120	531899	
105,354	60	35,808	09	69,546	511900	
111,331	58	43,046	93	68,284	65

the branch received 368 applications in January and issued 313 patents ; while in February, it received 344 applications and issued 325 patents.


Samuel Hughes: I did not get the answer to the last section.


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: There is no Intention on the part of the government to spend on the patent branch the revenue derived therefrom, but it is the intention to ask parliament for sufficient money to carry on the affairs of the office properly.


LONG SERVICE MEDALS.
Mr. SHERRITT asked :: 
The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE (Hon. F. W. Borden).: The issue of a long service decoration and medal to colonial forces was approved by the Imperial authorities some time ago. Regulations governing the same have only recently been approved by His Majesty's government, and were received at the Department of Militia and Defence February 4 last. They will be promulgated in next General Orders, being the first orders submitted for the approval of His Excellency in Council since the receipt of the approved regulations. These regulations contain all the information in the possession of the Militia Department on the subject.


LAKE MANITOBA DREDGING.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. BOYD-by Mr. Roche-asked :
Has the following petition been received by the Hon. the Minister of Public Works To the Minister of Public Works of the
Dominion of Canada.
The undersigned, your petitioners, would respectfully say :-
1.	Your petitioners residing along the west shore of Lake Manitoba are residents, being as shown as opposite our respective names herewith attached.
2.	It is understood that next year a regular line of boats will operate on this lake.
3.	Owing to our close proximity to the lake and the distance we are located from railway facilities, it is decidedly to our advantage to transport our farm products, etc., to the lake during the season of navigation.
4.	There are obstacles in the way that prevent a boat from landing, in the nature of sandbars and rocks.
5.	Your petitioners believe that for a very moderate expense these difficulties can be overcome, by dredging the sandbars and removing the rocks, for a landing at or near Lakeland, Big Point and Sandy Bay, as shown on the provincial maps.
Mr. FISHER.: 6.	Your petitioners, therefore, pray that you may, without undue delay, cause an investigation to be made, that facts may be ascertained, and if such facts bear out the above statements, that the work be undertaken with the least possible delay, that we may avail ourselves of the advantages that will be afforded us.
Is it the intention of the government to accede to the legitimate request of the petitioners ?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. J. I. Tarte).: No trace of such a petition can be found in the department. It may be there, but we cannot find it.


GOVERNOR GENERAL'S VISIT TO DAWSON.
[Stage Direction]
Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER- by Hon. Mr. Prior-asked :
Referring to Order of the House, February 12, 1901, and return in compliance respecting His Excellency's visit to Dawson and petitions presented, does this return cover ' all orders in council, correspondence and papers in any way connected with the said address and the requests and representations therein ' ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: Yes.


CANADA AND NEWFOUNDLAND.
Mr. GOURLEY asked :: Are there at the present time any negotiations being carried on between the government of Canada and the government of Newfoundland with a view of the latter province becoming a member of this Confederation ? If not, is it the intention of the government to open such negotiation during the present year ?


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: There are negotiations now pending between Canada and Newfoundland on the subject mentioned in this question ; and, further, that the time does not seem auspicious for the opening of such negotiations.


YUKON RAILWAY-MACKENZIE AND MANN'S CLAIM.
[Stage Direction]
Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER-by Hon. Mr. Prior-asked :
1.	Have Messrs. Mackenzie and Mann filed with or laid before the Minister of Railways and Canals or any other member of the government, any claim in connection with the contract for the construction of the Yukon Railway ?
2.	If so, when was such claim filed, or laid before the government or any member thereof ?
3.	What is the amount of such claim ?
4.	Has any action been taken by the government with regard thereto, and if so, what action has been so taken ?
5.	Has the government or any member thereof given any promise, assurance or statement, written or oral, to Messrs. Mackenzie and Mann, or to any person on their behalf, or to any bank or other corporation, stating the intentions of the government with respect to such claim ?
6.	If so, when was such promise, assurance or statement given, and what was it ?
The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: Messrs. Mackenzie & Mann have filed a claim against the government which has been examined and considered, and which, with all the papers relating to it, will be communicated to the House at an early date.


DISMISSAL OF MR. W. F. SCARTH.
Mr. ROCHE (Marquette) asked :: 1.	Has Mr. W. F. Scarth, formerly postmaster at Virden, Manitoba, been dismissed from that position ?
2.	If so, for what reason ?
3.	Have charges been made against Mr. Scarth and has an investigation been held into those charges, if any, since 1896 ?
4.	If investigation has been held, what was the result ?


Hon. JAMES SUTHERLAND :: 1.	Mr. W. F. Scarth has been removed from the postmastership of Virden, Manitoba.
2.	Mr. Scarth was removed from the post-mastersliip of Virden on representations, which were considered satisfactory, that the post office, when under his charge, was not properly managed.
3.	Charges of political partisanship were made against Mr. Scarth in April. 1897. which were investigated by the post office inspector.
4.	The result of the inspector's investigation was that the charges brought forward were not sustained.


ASHCROFT AND CARIBOO MAIL CONTRACT.
Hon. Mr. PRIOR asked :: 1.	What company or individual had the contract during the year 1900 for carrying the mails between Ashcroft and Cariboo, in British Columbia ?
2.	What was the mileage covered by said contract ?
3.	What amount per annum was the contract for ?
4.	How many trips per week did the contract call for ?
5.	Has the said contract expired ? If not, when will it ?
6.	Has the government renewed said contract, or given a new one to any person or persons ?
7.	If so, to whom has it been given, at what price and on what terms ?
8.	If said contract has not been renewed, or a new one given, is it the intention of the government to call for public tenders for said mail service as soon as the contract in force last year expires ?


Hon. JAMES SUTHERLAND :: 1. The British Columbia Express Company were the contractors for this service during the year 1900.
2 and 4. Between Ashcroft and Barker-ville. 2S7 miles, semi-weekly from May 15 to October 31, weekly for the remainder of the year.
Between Ashcroft station and Clinton, 32 miles, semi-weekly from November 1 to May 14, weekly for remainder of year.
Between Alkali Lake and Clinton, 90 miles, weekly throughout the year.
Betweeu Ashcroft and Lillooet, 03 miles, weekly throughout the year.
Between 150-Mile-House and Horsefly, 40 miles, weekly throughout the year.
Between 150-Mile-House and Keithley Creek, 80 miles, weekly throughout the year.
Between Soda Creek and Alexis Creek, 90-miles, weekly throughout the year.
3.	Rate of pay is $23,250 a year.
5.	The contract will expire on September 30, 1903.
6 and 7. The present contract was made with the British Columbia Express Company on October 1, 1899, for four years from that date.
8. As the contract will not expire until September 30, 1903, the department has not yet considered its future action regarding it.


METROPOLITAN LIFE INSURANCE COMPANY.
Mr. LEMIEUX asked :: 1.	Is the government aware that on an annual revenue of $344,158 the lapses of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company in Canada are of $5,695,372 ?
2.	Has the actuary of the Insurance Department made inquiries as to this abnormal proportion of lapses ?
3.	Is the government aware that the largest proportion of the business of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company is carried on with the mechanics add the poor class of the population ?
4.	Is there in the Insurance Department any information given by the life companies as to the reasons that are given to the heirs in order to make settlement at less than the face of the policies issued ?
5.	Is the Insurance Department informed of the reasons why claims are resisted by life companies-more particularly in cases where this information is denied to the widows having claims against said companies ?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W.
S.	Fielding) :
1.	Tlie government is aware that the lapses of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company in Canada for the year ended December 31, 1899, amounted to $5,635,372, and that the income of the company in Canada for the same year amounted to $344,158. The figures were published in the report of the superintendent of insurance for that year.
2.	No special Inquiry has been made as to the proportion of lapses, but the returns made to the government show that the proportion of lapses is large.
3.	The government is not informed as to the class or classes of the population insured hy the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, but is aware that the larger portion of the company's business in Canada is known as industrial insurance.
4.	The superintendent of insurance is not aware that any attempts at settlement have been made at less than the face of the

policies issued. No complaints of this kind have been received at the department from policy-holders or others.
5.	The department is not informed of the reasons why claims are resisted by life insurance companies.


CENSUS COMMISSIONER FOR EAST ELGIN.
Mr. INGRAM asked :: 1. The following answers were given to questions 1, 2 and 3 on February 12, 1901, by the Hon. the Minister' of Agriculture :-
Census Commissioner for East Elgin.
Mr. Ingram asked :-
1.	Who is appointed census commissioner for the electoral district of East Elgin ?
2.	How many applicants applied for the position and what are their names ?
3.	How many applied for the position of enumerator, what are the names, and how many have been selected up to date ?
The Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Fisher) -Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. gentleman's question, I would say that Mr. A. D. McGugan will be the census commissioner for the electoral district of East Elgin. In reply to questions 2 and 3, I would say that there have been no applicants.
Mr. Ingram-Did the hon. gentleman (Mr. Fisher) say Mr. McGugan for East Elgin or West Elgin ?
The Minister of Agriculture-A. D. McGugan for East Elgin.
Will the hon. Minister of Agriculture say if these answers are correct to day ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney A. Fisher).: The second and third answers are correct. The answer to the first should have read ' No one.' Mr. McGugan is recommended for West Elgin. My officer made a mistake by saying for East Elgin. No appointments are made.


Mr. INGRAM.: Would the hon. gentleman say who is for East Elgin ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.: No appointments have been made.


TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Mr. INGRAM asked :: 1.	Has the government considered whether the establishment of a system of technical education falls within the jurisdiction of the Dominion ?
2.	Is it the intention of the government to decide this question promptly ?
3.	In case the Dominion has jurisdiction, is it the intention of the government to establish such a system ?


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: From what consideration we have been able to give to this subject, we are not satisfied that the subject of technical education falls within the jurisdiction of the Dominion government.


Andrew B. Ingram: Would the Prime Minister answer the second part of the question ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: If the subject is not within our jurisdiction, we cannot take any action. We are not satisfied that Mr. FIELDING.
the subject of technical education is within our jurisdiction. We think it is within the jurisdiction of the provinces.


FOREST RANGERS.
Mr. WILSON asked :: How many forest rangers are in the employ of the Dominion government, what are their duties, where ' are they located, and what are their salaries respectively ?
How many forest fire rangers are employed by the Dominion government, where are they located, what are their duties, and what are their salaries respectively ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: Eleven homestead inspectors who act as forest rangers when required, and in addition to the homestead inspectors, there are three persons employed by the department. One at Boissevain receives a salary of $900 per annum and is in charge of the permanent timber reserve at Turtle Mountain ; one at Winnipeg, at $600 per annum, whose work is confined to the timber north of the Canadian Pacific Railway and east of Winnipeg, and one at Carlyle, at $000 per annum, who has charge of the Moose Mountain permanent timber reserve.
The duties of forest rangers are principally to prevent illegal cutting or destruction of timber. Their services are also utilized in collecting dues on timber cut illegally, and investigating and reporting upon cases of reported illegal cutting of timber.
There are no forest fire rangers employed by the Dominion government permanently, but the above officials assist in performing the duty, and men are employed when it is felt necessary to protect timber from lire. They are located at the most convenient point, and their duties are generally to protect the timber by taking every necessary precaution to that end. They also distribute copies of the law respecting prairie and forest fires. They are paid, when so employed, at the rate of $3 per day for man and horse, including all their expenses.
In the Department of Indian Affairs there is one forest bailiff employed from time to time as required in the Saugeen Peninsula. He makes seizure of timber illegally cut on Indian lands, and when on duty receives a daily allowance for himself of $1.50. Other forest bailiffs are employed on Indian reserves for the purpose of protecting the reserves and making seizures where timber is illegally cut.


SYDNEY INDIAN RESERVE.
Mr. JOHNSTON (Cape Breton) asked :: 1.	Has any effort been made by any person or persons to secure possession of the Indian reserve in the town of Sydney ?
2.	If so, by whom ?
3.	Will the government lay on the Table of the House all official correspondence having reference to this matter ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton) :: 1 a.nd 2. Applications have been received to be allowed to purchase the Indian reserve at Sydney from Wm. McDonald, M.P., in February, 1884 ; J. A. Gillies, M.P., in October, 1899 ; the Town Council of Sydney in February, 1900.
The question of surrendering the land was submitted to the Indians in December, 1899, but they refused except on conditions that could not be acceded to by the department, and the land is not, therefore, open for sale.
3.	Yes.


BUIES' PAMPHLET-PARIS EXPOSITION.
Edward Frederick Clarke: future as it has been in the past. It will be referred to the Printing Bureau and each case taken up on its merits and treated accordingly.


HOUSTON PERMIT.
Hon. Mr. PRIOR.: Does the hon. the Minister of the Interior require a formal motion for papers asked for in question No. 20 ?


The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).: No, I will bring them down to-morrow or next day without a motion.


LONG WHARF, ST. JOHN.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. FOWLER-by Mr. Hughes (Victoria)- moved for :
1.	In what printing office was the pamphlet entitled 'Animals, &c. of Canada,' by Arthur Buies, distributed at the Paris exhibition last year, printed ?
2.	What was the total issue of said pamphlet ?
3.	What was the average cost per pamphlet ?
4.	What was the total cost of said pamphlet ?
5.	Who supplied the paper for the work ?
6.	If printed In any establishment other than the Government Printing Bureau, why was this done ?
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney A. Fisher) :: 1.	Government Printing Bureau.
2.	10,000 copies.
3.	A fraction over 9 cents per copy.
4.	$906.49.
5.	Government Printing Bureau.


OFFICIAL CATALOGUE PARIS EXHIBITION.
Mr. BLAIN asked :: 1.	Has the government seen the following editorial comment in a recent issue of the Ottawa Free Press :-
* Another query was put yesterday with regard to the printing of the official catalogue of Canadian exhibitors at the Paris exhibition, and the information was given that the work was done in the office of the Montreal Herald, which supplied 5,000 copies, together with the p^,per. Further, the House was informed of the reason why the procedure was followed. It appears from the reply of the Minister of Agriculture, that such work is done " through the Printing Bureau, as owing through pressure of work it could not be done there." This must necessarily occur at times of pressure. But previous answers given to similar questions, all of which indicated that other work of various kinds had been sent to Montreal, leads to the conclusion that the Printing Bureau is decidedly partial in its selection of " donkey engine " printing establishments. The Secretary of State should instruct it to give other publishers with equally good, and perhaps better equipped offices than are to be found in Montreal, a show.'
2.	Is it the intention to give ' other publishers ' a share of the departmental printing ?


The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney A. Fisher).: I have no knowledge of the statement referred to. The departmental printing will be treated in the
Copies of all orders in council, correspondence, contracts or agreements between the government or the Department of Public Works or any member of the government as such, or any officers of any department of the government and Nicholas K. Connolly and Michael Connolly, contractors, referring to the building of the Long Wharf Terminal Improvements at St. John, New Brunswick ; also what payments have been made on same and the date of said payments.


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. J. I. Tarte).: I do not believe there has been any correspondence at all between the Public Works Department and Messrs. N. K. and Michael Connolly. I am under the impression that correspondence, if any, was with the Department of Railways and Canals. Since I have been in office, I am sure that there has been no correspondence between the Department of Public Works and these gentlemen, and no work carried on by them in my department. My hon friend must be mistaken.


Samuel Hughes: I do not know anything about it, but merely put the question in the absence of Mr. Fowler, and at his request.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Copy of all correspondence between the Canadian and British governments relating to commissions to he granted Canadian officers in the British army.-Mr. Bourassa.
Copy of all correspondence relating to the recruiting of the South African police force in Canada; also copies of all offers or requests made since last session of parliament for new Canadian troops for South Africa, including correspondence with the British government on both matters.-Mr. Bourassa.
Copies of all correspondence with the Department of Railways relative to the building of a line of railway between Sydney and East Bay, in the county of Cape Breton, and copies of any reports made to department having reference to this matter.-Mr. Johnston (Cape Breton.)
Copies of all papers, correspondence and claims made in connection with the alleged non-observ-
[Stage Direction]
ance of the fair-wage clause in the contract for the construction of the St. Andrews lock-Mr. Puttee.
Return of all correspondence between the government or any officer thereof and Col. Van Wagner, relating to the retirement of that officer from the command of the Hamilton Field Battery; and also the authority for considering Col. Van Wagner as a ' commanding officer,' and thus bringing that officer under the operation of the ' five years tenure of command law.'-Mr. Hughes (Victoria.)
Copies of all contracts connected with the improvements at Sydney Railway yard and at North Sydney Junction ; also a statement of all prices paid per cubic yard for earth (different kinds) and rock (different kinds), and for borrowing for embankment under said contract and in connection with said improvements ; also how much was paid for ditching, clearing and close cutting and grubbing, per acre or per hundred feet ; also for culvert masonry, retaining walls, cattle guards and crossings, fencing and gates.-Hon. Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper, by Mr. Borden (Halifax).
Return showing: (a) Net receipts and expenditures of the Intercolonial Railway for each month from 30th June, 1899, up to the 1st day of March, 1901.	(b) The expenditure on capital account
with respect to the Intercolonial Railway for each month from 30th June, 1899, up to the 1st day of March, 1901.-Mr. Borden (Halifax).
Copies of all correspondence, reports and certificates in regard to the application of Robert Gray, late lighthouse keeper at Entrance Island. British Columbia, for superannuation; also statement showing how long and what amounts ho had paid into the superannuation fund.-Hon. Mr. Prior.
Copies of, all orders in council, regulations and other documents since the 1st day of January, 1897, presenting or showing what percentage or proportion of value of goods entitled to the advantage of the preferential tariff could be created in foreign countries, and what percentage or proportion of such value must be created in the United Kingdom; and also setting forth and showing what declarations, statements, affirmations or oaths must be made, declared or sworn to by exporters or other persons consigning such goods to Canadian importers, or by persons in Canada importing such goods from Great Britain and Ireland.-Mr. Clarke.
Return showing the quantity of Servis railroad tie plates purchased by the government since June 30, A.D. 1887, the persons or companies from which the purchases were made, the quantities purchased, prices paid, dates of contracts and times of delivery.-Mr. Fowler, by Mr. Wilmot. 1
Copies of all rules and regulations and all correspondence in the Department of Marine and Fisheries relating to fishing berths and the shore fishery in West Halifax, more especially within the polling district of Prospect and Dover.-Mr. Roche (Halifax).

[Stage Direction]
On the motion :
Mr. Bennett-That, in the opinion of this House, duties should be levied upon lumber imported into Canada corresponding with those now existing upon lumber entering the United States.
Mr. BENNETT.: Stand.


Samuel Hughes: 


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: I am obliged to say to my hon. friend (Mr. Bennett) that the next time this is called, it must be proceeded with or it must be dropped.
Motion allowed to stand.


P.E.I. COMMUNICATION.
Mr. ALFRED  A.@: LEFURGEY (East Prince, P.E.I.) moved for :
Copies of all reports, letters or other correspondence between the Department of Marine and Fisheries and the boards of trade of Sum-merside and Charlottetown, or with any other person or persons acting in regard to the subject-matter of the motion, during the years 1899-1900 and 1901, regarding the placing of the government winter steamer Stanley on the route between Summerside, P.E.I., and Cape Tormen-tine, N.B., for the conveyance of mails, passengers and freight.
He said :	When this motion came up a few
days ago, I asked to have it stand over because the Minister of Marine (Hon. Sir Louis Davies) was not in his place. I am sorry he is not here to-day, as he is probably more familiar with the matter in hand than most of the other lion, gentlemen on the government benches. However, I wish to draw the attention of ministers and of members generally to the unsatisfactory, in fact the deplorable state of affairs which has existed in Prince Edward Island ever since confederation in regard to the transmission of mails, passengers and freight to and from the mainland, and more especially to a period lately passed, and to which reference has already been made in this House, and which is far from satisfactory to a country entering the twentieth century. I wish to point out further that it is a condition of affairs which is due not to the lack of opportunities or even of facilities to remedy it, but to causes which reflect most unsatisfactorily upon the heads of the departments who have been cognizant of the situation, and could have improved it had they been determined to do so. *The most ludicrous part of the miserable situation is that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, who, during the time that he wandered in the wilderness of opposition, declaimed year after year about the treatment to which Prince Edward Island was subjected, is the head of the department at whose door chiefly lies the responsibility for the conditions Prince Edward Island has had to face this winter. I shall not deal with this subject at length, because it has been before the House, I suppose, every year since confederation. I merely wish to lay before the House some facts presented by the Board of Trade of Summerside. at whose request I deal with the subject this afternoon. I shall lay before you communications that have passed between the Minister of Fisheries and the Board of Trade of Summerside, and reports and recommendations from captains of win-
ter boats Minto and Stanley, and from the government engineer, Mr. Sehreiber, to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, which together with subsequent events will present a case of incompetence or wilful neglect. X should be recreant in my duty to my constituents did I not take this opportunity of placing this matter before the House.
Prince Edward Island, as you all know, entered confederation in 1873, under definite terms. One of the terms of union was as follows :
Efficient steam service for the conveyance of mails and passengers to be established and maintained between Prince Edward Island and the mainland of the Dominion, winter and summer, thus placing the island in continuous communication with the Intercolonial Railway and the railway system1 of the Dominion.
That has not been carried out. I do not wish to treat this as a matter in which the Dominion should be forced to fulfil the terms of its agreement. 1 simply read this section to you to show that the condition exists, so that it will be seen that the Dominion is in honour bound to carry it out. It is to the feeling of justice and fairness that I would appeal for a remedy for existing evils. We in Prince Edward Island are not complaining because millions are spent in opening up the trade of the country at various points, nor because facilities are given by rail and water for the development of the resources of the country. But what we want, gentlemen, is a fair treatment of the provinces down by the sea.


Mr. SPEAKER.: Order. I must ask the hon. member to address the Chair.


Mr. LEFURGEY.: I was saying, Mr. Speaker, that the island and the other provinces down by the sea should receive a fair treatment at the hands of the government. Prince Edward Island came into the confederation in 1873, and for the first few years we really got no consideration as regards communication. Later on a steamer by the name of Albert was put on, which did not meet the requirements of the situation at all. In 1876 we were given the steamer Northern Light, and for a number of years she plyed between the Island and the mainland, but like the Albert she gave very little satisfaction. In 1887 we got the Stanley. The government had experience of the Northern Light and put on a boat which really did good service up to 1899 ; but of course after having been battered up by the ice during all those years, she began to go down, and a second boat was indispensable if service was to be kept up. Then the Minto was put on in 1900, during the late parliament. One would have thought that the government would have taken pattern by the Stanley and put on a first-class boat with ail the modern improvements ; hut instead of having her built by the people who had experience of building the Stanley, for the sake of saving $30,000 or $40,000 they
had the Minto built in a second-class yard ; and a proof of this is that an answer given on the floor of the House to an inquiry in committee showed that the sum of $12,000 had to be voted for repairs in riveting after she had only been running one year. Of course she was a vessel of great power, hut what was the use of putting more power into a hull that was not capable of resisting the impact of the ice ? Moreover, after the Minto came out to the island before she could go on service and do the freight and passenger business required by that service, she had to he altered in many material respects. Surely the government in charge of her should have known this before accepting her and bringing her to the island. I do not know why this was done, unless it was that the present government did not wish to take pattern by the boat which had been supplied by the Conservative government. They have pursued a similar course in the matter of the fast Atlantic service ; but one notable case in which they did not do it was in respect of the national policy, for in that question they followed the example of the Conservative government.
At present, Mr. Speaker, we have two boats available, and that at the time when we should have our best service, is when the bungling of the opportunities at hand occurs and calls for some explanation,which I trust the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will give. A large number of business men. both in the province of Prince Edward Island and the county of Westmoreland contiguous, have for a number of years been advocating the Summerside and Cape Tormen-tine route as the natural and most favourable route for steam communication between tlie island and the mainland during the winter season. This project was advocated for some time, and finally we had a boat called the Petrel which came down from the lakes, a boat which the Minister of Marine and Fisheries should have known, which any reasonable man with a proper knowledge of the straits should have known, was not of sufficient power to break through two or three inches of ice, let alone keeping open navigation across the straits. And so we had that miserable failure which, I suppose, served the election purposes. Possibly up to the advent of the second steamer, the Minto, we cannot attach too much blame to either government for not experimenting with this route ; but after we got the steamer Minto it was only fair that the people of the western end of the island should have the benefit of her for freight and passenger traffic, and the conveyance of the mails. In 1900, promises were made that route would be tested, yet the Stanley was lying tied up at Georgetown wharf, when there never had been a more favourable time in the past twenty-five years for a steamer to test the expediency of this route. The Stanley remained tied up there the whole winter, and the govern-

ment gave the old excase that there was not enough water in Summerside harbour, and that there were not landing facilities at Oape Tormentine. But in May last, when the Dominion elections were in sight, promises came from the head of the department that these conditions would he remedied ; and, wonderful to relate, a dredge did come to Summerside to prepare the harbour for the Stanley. But stranger still the |500 or $600 necessary to repair the pier at Cape Tormentine to receive the Stanley was not forthcoming. I know that a circular was sent through the district a couple of days before the election, saying that $15,000 would be spent in Summerside each month during the winter season while the Stanley was on the Summerside and Cape Tormentine route. Yet they subsequently use this very neglect in repairing Cape Tormentine pier as an excuse for removing the boat. 1 only mention this because this whole subject of communication betwen the island and the mainland appears to have been treated merely from a political point of view ; it has not received that due consideration which these matters should have, and which the people down on the island deserve. Now, 1 am going to bring to the attention of the House some extracts of a report that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries received from his engineer, Mr. Shewen :
Mr. Shewen, in his report of September, 1900, referred to the work at Cape Tormentine as follows1 :-
That the Stanley required a vertical face 175 feet long on the outside of the return, or southern arm of the pier. And he used these words as to the route. The experiment proposed to he made with the Stanley between Summerside and Cape Tormentine is of the utmost consequence to the whole province of Prince Edward Island and to the other provinces with which the island does business, and at the narrowest part of the strait is found the greatest current and the current assists in loosening the ice. In the neighbourhood of Cape Tormentine the currents meet and part twice a day.
That was the report of the engineer, Mr. Shewen, to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. The hon. gentleman was not altogether satisfied with that, and so he wrote to the captains of the winter boats, the Stanley and the Minto, and asked the following questions :
1. Is Cape Tormentine pier in a condition to receive the Stanley, or could she make it as a landing ?
This is the answer :
_ Cape Tormentine pier or breakwater is not in a fit condition to receive any steamer ; on account of it being built with a slope, a steamer could only bear on it with her bilge, which would be certain to injure her, and break her propeller. In summer, or before the ice makes, she could get round inside of the breakwater, but after the ice forms it would be impossible to put her inside, because it requires more space to turn in ice, and deeper water than there is inside of the breakwater.


Alfred Alexander Lefurgey: Generally, is this route feasible under present circumstances for winter ; if not, what would be required to make it a feasible route?
Answer. We cannot tell whether the route is feasible or not without a trial.
3rd Ques. Can you suggest any circumstances under which an experiment could safely be made to test the feasibility of that route?
Answer. The only thing, in our opinion, that can be done to test the route is this: after the steamer Northumberland stops running, place the Stanley at Summerside and have her all ready and let her remain there until the bord ice in the vicinity of Cape Tormentine breakwater is sufficiently strong to hold the steamer; then a landing can be made on the ice. This has been done at Souris and Georgetown on several occasions.
This reply is dated November 1, 1900, and is signed by the two masters of the winter boats, Capt. Finlayson and Oapt. Brown, on whom every reliance is placed, and on whom the minister is accustomed to rely and would shift responsibility in all cases. When the harbour of Summerside had been frozen over for about a month, or on December 22, the Stanley came into Summerside harbour, and continued to make daily trips between Summerside and Cape Tormentine, occupying from one hour and a half to two hours each trip, until on January 3 we find that news comes from Charlottetown that the Stanley is to be removed from this route and is in fact taken away to Georgetown, under the excuse that the facilities at Cape Tormentine pier are not requisite to land passengers, mails and freights, and on account of an epidemic of smallpox in Westmoreland, N.B. I want to show, from the data which I will put before the House, that we did not receive fair treatment in the matter of this trial, and I desire to point out that the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries did not act up to the recommendation of the persons who were experienced in the matter of winter communication. When the board of trade found that the boat was-going to be removed from Summerside, they addressed the following correspondence to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries :
Summerside, December 26, 1900. Hon. Sir Louis Davies,
Ottawa.
Crossed with Stanley yesterday, Summerside to_ Cape Tormentine and return, making round trip under four hours, encountering ordinary winter conditions of ice. There can be no doubt about feasibility of daily communication, weather permitting. The only present difficulty is absence of bord ice is Tormentine pier, which requires piling andTrestle work, as recommended by Captain Brown in November, 1899. In consultation with Mr. McGlashing, your official at Tormentine, he says work can be done at a small cost in a few days. Will you kindly instruct him to have work done immediately.
R. C. MACLEOD, President of Board of Trade.
Ou December 26, the following message was also seut to the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries :
In view of the success and rapidness of trip of Stanley here yesterday, we would suggest that mails be sent by her. The Minto being relieved of carrying mails and passengers, could easily handle all the freight. There were no mails here for four days till last night. The mails by the Stanley could be easily landed daily. Until pier is repaired or bord ice makes, mails and passengers can be landed at low tide by boats if necessary.
R. C. MACLEOD, President Board of Trade.
Tlie following telegram was received from the hon. minister on December 26 :
R. C. Macleod, Summerside.
Am inquiring with respect to epidemic smallpox in country surrounding Cape Tormentine. Pear will have to withdraw Stanley.


L. H. DAVIES.
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The board of trade replied to the minister as follows :
Smallpox scare greatly exaggerated. Was on the ground yesterday. Do not withdraw Stanley. Sending delegation to-morro^ to fully investigate health conditions. Will report.
R. C. MACLEOD, President Board of Trade.
In the meantime the hon. minister replied that nothing would be done until he received the report of the delegates. The delegates reported that the infected district had been fully quarantined and every precaution taken by the health officers :
New coaches have been substituted for those used on the New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island Railroad when epidemic was discovered, and no local passengers, freight or mails are permitted on the trains between Sackville and Cape Tormentine. The nearest case to Cape Tormentine is eight miles distant. There are several cases known, but of a very light type, and the epidemic is now thought to be under control.
They also reported in regard to Cape Tormentine pier that Mr. McGlashing, in the employ of the government there, informed them that the repairs could be completed in a few days, if ordered, at a cost of from $200 to $300.
In face of this, Mr. Speaker, the boat was taken away, and the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries, in reply to these communications, telegraphed on January 3, 1901, as follows :-
Letter received; regret impossible to make promises suggested, owing to absence of terminal facilities Tormentine combined with smallpox scare. Stanley is carrying little freight, few passengers and no mails. See no prospect her being much public service remainder of winter on this route while tremendous congestion of freight at Pictou demands her presence there to relieve it.
I contend that a reply of this kind, in the face of the evidence that has been presented to this House, is a barefaced excuse. The want of terminal facilities was known to the hon. minister ; it was pointed out to him, and the necessary repairs were recommended by his engineer. These were
also pointed out by Mr. McGlashing, the engineer at Cape Tormentine in charge of the work, who reported that they could be made at a cost of from $200 to $300 ; yet, the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries goes back to the excuse of the want of proper terminal facilities, after promising, in the fall of 1900, to have these same repairs made. Then, he goes on to say that there was a scare of smallpox. He takes care to say that it was a scare, because the facts proved that it was nothing else. Whoever heard ot a smallpox scare, or even of a real case of smallpox stopping the trains ? Are you not having smallpox cases in Montreal and in Ottawa every season, and do you stop your trains because of this ? The excuse is too small to be put forward by any gentleman who holds the position of the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries. As to there being no orders for passengers, freight or mails, I have read you the communications that passed between the board of trade and tlie minister, asking that the mails be transferred to the Stanley in view of the quick trips she was making. As regards passengers and freight, I may say that at this time in Summerside, there were between twenty and thirty cars of freight, composed of frozen fish, poultry and pork, manufactured lumber, &c., waiting. The board of trade could get no satisfaction from the authorities as to whether these goods could be shipped by the Stanley, and the Stanley had some 400 tons of coal on board during the time she was on this route. The result was that very little went in the way of freight or passengers, because the passengers could not depend on the movements of the Stanley, or whether or not she was likely to be taken away at any time. The congestion of freight, to which the hon. minister referred, did not exist at all. One of our merchants, a prominent member of the board of trade, wired to Pictou on hearing of this reported congestion of freight at Pictou, asking if he could get freight accommodation on the Minto, and the reply came back that two days would remove the congestion of freight at Pictou.
Furthermore, I myself was at Pictou about this time, and I inquired as to the congestion of freight there, as I had also heard that the Stanley was going to be removed. I was informed that the Minto could relieve any congestion of freight in a very few days, providing the mails were transferred to the Stanley. These excuses did not amount to anything with the people of Prince Edward Island, who are so vitally interested in receiving their mails and freight. The result of the arrangement made last winter was that both boats were caught in the ice for ten days, and from 1,200 to 1,500 bags of mails were piled up at Cape Tormentine and Pictou, while the ice-boat service was not even called out to relieve the congestion until after some days. I am informed by
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trustworthy people in the island and at Cape Tormentine, that there has not been a single day this winter when the Stanley could not have made return trips to Prince Edward Island from Summerside to Cape Tormentine, and we have the same reports at the present time. It was not my intention to rebuke the government, but in view of the bungling and mismanagement to which the people of the western end of the island (indeed all over the island) were obliged to submit during the last winter, some explanation is required from the government. I would be more pleased to think that it was the result of neglect than that the Minister of Marine (Hon. Sir Louis Davies) had been influenced by any political pull coming from West Queen's. I do not want to make any political capital out of this matter because the people of the island and of the whole Dominion, irrespective of political parties, are deeply concerned. We have the facilities at hand, and what we complain is that they are not utilized in the best interest of the people. As you know, Mr. Speaker, the people of Prince Edward Island are an intelligent people, and since they entered confederation in 1873 they have been a long-suffering and patient people as regards this matter, but patience must have its limit. There may be some hon. gentlemen here who do not know that Prince Edward Island is a most fertile province, and that we have resources there in almost every line of agriculture. During the last few years the dairying industry has made marked progress, but that progress must necessarily be retarded unless we can send our products to the markets at all times of the year. I wish to emphasize that the route which I advocate is better than any other route which has been experimented upon, or which is known, and it will receive the approval of seven-eighths of the people of the island, lor the following reasons : Three-fourths of the freight and passengers and mails must pass through Sackville before coming to the island, and Sackville is a great many miles removed from Pictou, so that a great'deal of time would be saved. As to the steamers themselves they would have from 24 to 80 miles less ice breaking, because the route between Summerside and Cape Tormentine is only 15 miles whereas between Georgetown and Pictou it is about 50 miles. There would be consequently less wear and tear on the_ steamers by the shorter route. It is 132 miles shorter from Charlottetown to Sackville than via Georgetown, it is 182 miles shorter from Summerside and the west, than by going around via Georgetown, and it is 40 miles nearer to Sackville going to Georgetown via Summerside and the Cape than it is to go around via Pictou and Georgetown. The route, therefore. has many advantages in the saving of distances. Mails and passengers arriving by the Intercolonial Railway express from Montreal get to Sackville at 12.23 p.m., and Mr. LEFURGEY.
by the Canadian Pacific Railway from Halifax at 11.50 a.m., so that by proper train connection they could reach Charlottetown at 7 p.m., or 24' hours sooner than by the route now used. Take the example of two men leaving Charlottetown for the main line of the Intercolonial Railway in the morning at the same hour. The man going by Summerside and Cape Tormentine would be at Sackville when the man from Charlottetown and Georgetown would arrive at Pictou. In other words, he would be 24 hours ahead on a trip to Montreal or any point west. Another advantage is that the winter boat from Summerside to Cape Tormentine is never out of sight of land, and if the steamers carried ice-boats the passengers on that dangerous trip could be landed in a few hours without any delay. As the engineer pointed out to the Minister of Marine (Hon. Sir Louis Davies), the tide meets there twice daily and consequently the ice is kept loosened up. The winds also favour this route, because at Charlottetown and Georgetown we have the north and north-east winds, which completely block up the straits at times, while at Cape Tormentine this does not occur, or if we had a boat at either end it would more nearly carry out the terms of confederation, because if one boat was tied up on the Georgetown-Pictou route with north-east winds we would have the other route absolutely free of ice, or, on the other hand, if westerly winds blocked the western route the eastern would be open. Another point in favour of this route is that if there was any congestion of freight while there was open water we could have a boat ply from Summerside to Cape Tormentine twice daily. There is no business man in the House, nor any man of common sense, who, in view of the conditions that exist will deny in the face of these facts that the people of Prince Edward Island have not been treated fairly in this matter. We would like the assurance of the hon. the Minister of Marine-who, I regret, is not here-and the hon. the Minister of Public Works, that this matter will be remedied in the near future, and that this pier at Cape Tormentine will be put in repair, as was promised time and time again, and not be kept for use as a political machine during election time. Furthermore, we would ask that the steamer Stanley be put on a Summerside and Cape Tormentine route at the earliest possible moment. I have letters from reliable persons every day telling me that there has been open water on that route almost every day this year, and that the Stanley could have made round trips between those points without interruption the entire season. I thank the House for its kind attention, and would again ask the consideration of the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the government and the members of this House to the topic I have brought before them.
Mr. EDWARD HACIvETT (West Prince, P.E.I.) Before this motion is carried, Mr!

Speaker, 1 desire to say but few words, as my hon. friend from East Prince has dwelt so ably and exhaustively on the subject that he has left me very little to say. There is one thing we regret in connection with this matter, and that is that we have not the pleasure of seeing the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Hon. Sir Louis Davies) in his seat. This motion was allowed to stand on the Order paper a week ago because of his absence, and now we find that he is again away from the House, and that we have to press this motion on the attention of this House in the absence of the minister in charge of the department. We are thus compelled to address ourselves to hon. gentlemen who are unfamiliar with the details, and it is very unsatisfactory to us to be placed in this position, representing as my hon. friend and myself do the majority of the people of the island and the intelligence and views and desires of that majority. We are the more disappointed, because we were led to believe by the hon. minister, who is not here to attend to the affairs of his province that he was going to revolutionize affairs once he obtained a seat on the treasury benches. Why is the hon. gentleman absent to-day '! The reason is not far to seek. There is a byelection on in Prince Edward Island, and he is more anxious to bring back to this House a supporter of the government than to remain here and attend to the business and wants of the people. The other day, on his return from a trip to the island, the hon. gentleman complained that he had been imprisoned in that province, and we had the hon. the Postmaster General, when asked for an explanation of the delay of ten days in the mail service between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, telling us that he would explain the delay as soon as his colleague returned. We know why the Minister of Marine went to the island at that time and sympathized with him. He went down to the bed side of a sick father, and' we know that with his characteristics of filial love and affection, he would not leave that bed side as long as his father remained ill, and we would have to wait until his return for the information we required. When the hon. gentleman came back he told us how he had been imprisoned owing to the ice blockade, and yet we find him going down and risking imprisonment again in his native province, but this time his object is to bring back a supporter to himself. He is not here to attend to his duties and the affairs of his province, but is down at the island trying to elect the candidate who was defeated on the 7th of November last, and bring him back to vote for this government.
This question we are discussing is one of great importance to the people of Prince Edward Island. One of the principal inducements at the time of confederation to Prince Edward Island to become a part of the Dominion was the promise held out to
the people that the Dominion would establish uninterrupted winter communication between the island and the mainland. We were told by both parties that the Dominion, having means at its disposal, would, if the island entered the union, provide the continuous steam communication in winter and summer, so necessary to the welfare of that province, between the island and the mainland. In bringing this question to the notice of the House, we therefore make no apology, because it is not one which affects our province alone. We have in that province a population of about 120.000, intelligent, fairly prosperous, and mostly composed of farmers and fishermen. We have no manufacturing industries of any importance, and consequently have to buy from the other provinces the manufacturing goods we require, and to-day, notwithstanding the ice blockade, we find commercial travellers from Toronto, Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, St. John and other cities of Canada visiting our province and selling their goods to our people. This question therefore is not one which affects the island alone, but the whole Dominion, and consequently we require to make no apology when bringing it to the notice of the House.
My hon. friend (Mr. Lefurgey) has dwelt so fully upon what has been done that little remains to be said. We know that the government has been approached by the local government of our province and shown that a large amount is due us by the Dominion because of the non-fulfilment of this article of confederation. The right hon. gentleman (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) replied that we have now one ice boat-I think that was in .1898-and that next year he would provide another one, and thus fulfil the terms of union. He sent away the delegation, and we have received no compensation for the non-fulfilment of those terms although they have been so long left unfulfilled. Another steamer was placed on the route, but to provide the continuous communication, guaranteed us by the terms of confederation, the two boats should not be kept on the same route between the same two points. It has been shown that the route between Cape Tormentine and Sum-merside harbour is the natural one. Between Cape Tormentine and Cape Traverse is really the natural route, as the distance across is only eight or nine miles, but as there are not proper facilities at Cape Traverse, communication cannot be kept up between those points. But Summerside harbour, lying some fifteen miles east, is easily accessible. That crossing was experimented upon by the steamer Stanley, which was sent there on the 22nd December, after ice had formed in the harbour, and she had no difficulty getting to the wharf and made the round trip in three hours, taking from Summerside a number of people and bringing back a number of passengers from the other side, thus clearly estab-
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lishing the feasibility of that route. At that point, we have the best information obtainable that there has been open water there all this winter, and no solid packed ice as there is at the eastern end of the island. The engineer, Mr. Shewen, assures us that by the action of the currents and the tides, the ice is separated and loosened all the time, and consequently easily navigable by a good ship.
But it is somewhat amusing to review the history of this matter. When I had the honour of a seat in this House in 1896, 1 asked the lion, the Minister of Marine what he was going to do in order to keep up navigation between the island and the mainland, and he replied that he had a scheme which he had no doubt would get the support of the hon. member for West Prince. What that scheme was he would not make known then, but he said that he had a scheme, and had $20,000 voted to carry it out. The scheme was this : He hired a tug boat, a boat that would do for towing rafts on Hake Ontario, and had her brought to Prince Edward Island to keep up steam communication. I happened to be in Summerside when that boat came into the harbour there. The people were assembled on the house tops and on the streets watching her coming in. They were able to get her up to the Queen's Wharf, the lower wharf, and a party of tourists boarded her- this craft that had been hired from some pets of the minister up in Ontario. These people took passage to Cape Tormentine, intending to return the same evening. This was in the month of November, and, unfortunately, a little frost came on, causing a light coating of ice to form-and the new boat remained at Cape Tormentine, while the tourists were obliged to go around by Pictou, and return by the old Stanley, that had been built by the Conservative government. And that was all this new boat did.
I had occasion to cross in the ice boats from Cape Traverse about the end of February. They were expecting the Stanley. There was open water, and no doubt about the boat running. In the morning I was aroused by the whistle of a steamer. I rose, dressed rapidly, and rushing down stairs, asked the host if the Stanley had arrived, and if that was her whistle that I had heard. He said :
' No, that is the government whistle. She has been there whistling all winter; she whistles us up in the morning and whistles us to bed at night.' And she did nothing to keep up communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. Now, as I have said, if the minister would place the Minto between Georgetown and Pictou at the eastern end, and have the Stanley run between Summerside and Cape Tormentine, you would have an ideal system of communication. To have the two boats on the same route as at present is most unwise. Both were stuck In the ice about February 1. If you had one of these boats
Mr. HACKETT.: plying between Summerside and Cape Tormentine, and the other on the other route, there would be no detention of mails, passengers or freight. But the hon. minister has seen tit to keep the two boats at the eastern end of the province, having no means of communication direct with the western end. This cannot be on account of politics ; we do not want to make this a political question. It is a question that interests every man on Prince Edward Island, and every man in the Dominion of Canada as well. I do not know who is to take the place of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and give an answer to our question. I saw the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding) here a few moments ago, but he also has disappeared. He went to Prince Edward Island during a by-election two years ago, and barely escaped being imprisoned in the ice also. He came across from Summerside to Point Du Chene, N.B., just in time to escape. He ought to be able to give us a little information on the matter. I see the right hon. Prime Minister is in his place, and I would remind him that in any conversation he has with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, he should impress upon him the necessity of having terminal facilities completed at Cape Tormentine, and have the Stanley on the route between Cape Tormentine and Summerside, P.E.I., leaving the Minto at the other end of the province. This would enable the government to keep up communication. It should be impressed upon the Minister of Fisheries that a northeast wind which packs the ice in the gulf at the eastern end of the province, loosens it at the western end, so that you always have one route with open loose ice through which a winter boat can navigate. I am glad to see that the Prime Minister is paying attention, and I hope that he will impress this matter upon his colleague. And even if the independent electors of East Queen's do reject his candidate, I hope that both these hon. gentlemen and the government generally will see the necessity of doing something for Prince Edward Island.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: I am sorry that my hon. friend and colleague, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, is not here, and that he has not had the advantage of hearing my hon. friend. But, in that hon. gentleman's absence, I can assure my hon. friends that I have taken their remarks all in, and I shall be happy to report everything that has been said to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. If I correctly understand the view of my hon. friend (Mr. Hackett), it is that the Minto should be left at the eastern end of the island, and that the Stanley should do service between Summerside and Cape Tormentine, and that this is the ideal service-almost as good as a tunnel would be.
I shall report that faithfully to my col-
12 82-
league. Meanwhile, there is no objection to the adoption of the motion.


RETIRING PENSIONS TO MEMBERS OP PERMANENT CORPS.
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On the motion :
Edward Gawler Prior: That, in the opinion of this House, the time has arrived when the best interests of Canada demand that the government should without further delay introduce a Bill embodying a workable scheme looking to the granting of adequate retiring pensions to the officers, noncommissioned officers and men of the permanent corps orthe militia of Canada.


Edward Gawler Prior: Stand.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).: Does not the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Prior) move this ?


Edward Gawler Prior: Several hon. gentlemen on the other side wish to speak on the subject, and have asked me to allow the motion to stand. Do I understand that if I ask that it be allowed to stand now,-it will be taken off the Notice paper ?


The PRIME MINISTER.: No, I will give another chance. I said at the opening that we would allow motions to stand today if desired, but at the next sitting I will ask that those not moved be dropped. I may remark that the session is advancing, and the hon. gentleman's chances of getting his motion forward are becoming more slim.


Edward Gawler Prior: I would move it to-day but for the absence of supporters of the right hon. gentleman, who wish to speak upon it.


The PRIME MINISTER.: Very well, let it stand.
Motion allowed to stand.


ENCOURAGEMENT OE RIFLE SHOOTING.
Samuel Hughes: That in the opinion of this House it would be in the best interests of the militia of Canada were the government or the Minister of Militia to authorize the payment of ten dollars annually towards the expenses of one man, selected under departmental regulations, from each company, squadron and battery, or other unit of the active militia, to attend the provincial rifle Association annual rifle matches, each in his own province ; and that the sum of fifteen dollars annually he granted to each of two men of the foregoing number from each battalion of two hundred and fifty men and corresponding number of cavalry and artillery and other arm of the service while an additional man should be selected for each extra one hundred and twenty-five members of any arm of the service) toward expenses in attending the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association matches annually ; and further, that a liberal supply of ammunition should be granted to each active militiaman free, for practice under proper departmental regulations on local or home ranges.
He said :	In placing this motion upon
the paper, I am actuated by a desire to bring the importance of this question to-the attention of the House and the country. I will not dilate here on the great importance of rifle shooting for the defence of any nation, it is not necessary to enter into any sentimental discussion of that aspect of the question. All the arguments have been advanced in years gone by in favour of rifle shooting, and they have been vigorously opposed by those who have taken the opposite view, opposed on the ground of red-tape and other reasons. But all these reasons have been exploded by the recent war and the absolute necessity of encouraging rifle shooting has been made abundantly plain. My object is simply to draw the attention of the minister and of the country to the necessity of the government and of the Militia Department taking cognizance of rifle shooting. I understand that the government are bringing down some scheme of rifle associations. I have not seen the scheme yet, it may be a good one, but I very much fear that a mere scheme of establishing rifle associations over the country, unless they are under the control of the Militia Department in some definite way, will not redound to the benefit of the militia of the country. What I fear is that when these associations are organized these men will disassociate thefiiselves from the militia of the country, at least so far as they can do so under the regulations. We have already existing very good associations, but I feel they can be much improved. I desire again to impress upon the minister the scheme I had the honour of bringing up a number of years ago. Why not offer a prize to each militia company all over Canada, that prize to be a certain payment-I have only put down a nominal sum here, that need not be adhered to-but a certain prize to go in payment of his expenses towards attending the provincial rifle association matches which receive the sanction, the cognizance and support of the various provincial governments all over Canada, and rightly so ? Let the government set apart, say, two men from each unit all over the country to attend these provincial matches, and then pick out say one or two of the best of these men from every battalion or certain sized units to attend the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association matches. The expenditure of money, I am satisfied, would be more than returned to the government in the impetus given to rifle shooting. At present, with the long range rifle, and these long range targets that we must necessarily have now, and expensive targets too, rifle shooting as a science, has largely become centered in the cities. It is almost impossible in a rural district to get a range that will not be objectionable to some one. After you get a range, the first thing you know is an appeal from the township council that it is dangerous, somebody kicks,



and unless the militia is strong enough to control the council, the range has to go. Indeed there is not that incentive to rifle shooting in rural regiments now that there formerly was. One reason is the expense of providing a rifle range, and you cannot expect rural men, with little time at their disposal, to go in for this expensive training.
I take the liberty of drawing the minister's attention to a point which has been considerably discussed by militiamen, and I think he has considered it in the plan that he is carrying out, although I have not seen his plan, in relation to rifle associations throughout the country. I am satisfied that possibly he will be able to adopt some framework of my suggestion here in his new range regulations, if I may call them so. At all events, I trust that the minister, in framing liis resolution on the question of rifle associations and ranges, will give this matter his serious consideration.


Mr. A. T. THOMPSON (Haldimand and Monk).: Mr. Speaker, in regard to the motion of the hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Hughes), 1 have a very few words to say. Personally, I am much interested in the subject of rifle shooting from having had a long connection with the militia of Canada. To my mind, this subject has been, to some extent, neglected in the past, owing to the fact that the people of Canada have not sufficiently realized its importance. One of the good results arising from the South African war is that the people have had called to their attention the fact that good soldiership means the ability to use the weapon of the day. If we go back in history we find that in very early times the ability to use the particular weapon of the time was the fact upon which the winning of the battle largely depended. We find that in the battle of Flodden Field, where, for once the English got the better of the Scotts, the victory was owing largely to the fact that the English had in their ranks the better marksmen. While holding the views I do upon this subject, I have no wish to see adopted in this country a military system that would bear heavily upon the people. We do not, in Canada, want to be ground under the militarism of the old lands, but we want a citizen soldiery which will be effective and which, if need bej can take the field and give a good account of itself and will do so if we have better facilities for rifle practice. I am not in favour of confining the opportunities for rifle shooting merely to military organizations. When I use the term military organizations, I may say that I am speaking of the active militia which is necessarily small in number, being composed of some 40,000 men, which, after all. represents a very inconsiderable proportion of the force upon which the country depends. I have heard it stated by the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence (Hon. Mr. Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).
Borden), who has always done a great deal ever since he took the portfolio, in the interest of the militia, that rifle clubs are to be organized and facilities given to men to shoot, although they are not active members of the militia. I believe there are limitations imposed to the effect that these men should agree to sign a document that in the case of their services being required they would give them. That, to my mind, would be an entirely unnecessary precaution. I feel convinced that if Canada were in trouble her sons would come promptly to the front and give their services in her defence. When the North-west Territories rebellion broke out the great difficulty was the choice of men. So great was the number of applications that the men were struggling for the places. The same thing occurred when this country offered to send troops to take part in the South African war. I believe that if you teach men how to shoot with tile rifle of to-day you will have provided the best means of defence for this country. Take the little country of Switzerland where they have between 500,000 and 000,000 men who are fair shots at from 000 to 800 and
1,000	yards. There is an immense force in that country to guard its frontiers in time of need. I am heartily in accord with the motion of the hon. member for North Victoria (Mr. Hughes), and I hope the hon. Minister of Militia will take this matter seriously into his consideration and give the members, if not absolutely free ammunition, at least cheap ammunition-ammunition at cost, or even at, perhaps, half cost, and that everything will be done to promote rifle shooting in this country.


Hon. DAVID TISDALE (South Norfolk).: Mr. Speaker, I would say, in reference to this expenditure that is foreshadowed for crack shots, that we do not want to forget the general militiamen or volunteer, because, what we want are not a few men that can shoot well, but the encouragement of many men who can shoot fairly well. Otherwise, we would be in danger of paying too much attention to these few men and neglecting the great body of our militiamen. I think it would be well for the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence (Hon. Mr. Borden) to bear that in mind. While I am heartily in favour of both the Dominion and Provincial Rifle Associations, it seems to me that we should pay more attention to securing a large number of men that are capable of shooting fairly well than to get a few who can shoot excellently well. From year to year men grow older, and while they may still have an interest in the subject, they lose the capability of rendering active service which devolves upon the young men who are growing up. Therefore, in my opinion, it is better to have plenty of shooting that is fairly good so that this marksmanship will be available for the defence of the country. The money would be better expended if
some system were evolved that would encourage all of the volunteers and the militia, whether on the reserve or active list, to be * able to master their weapons and shoot fairly well than by giving too much encouragement for a few men in the different battalions who might be able to shoot particularly well.


Hon.  E. G.@: PRIOR (Victoria, B.C.) Mr. Speaker, I wish to say that I am heartily in accord with the resolution moved by the hon. member for North Victoria (Mr. Hughes). 1 wish to say a word in regard to what the hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Thompson) has stated. He says he does not think that any agreement should be asked from the men who join these proposed rifle clubs because Canada always can find plenty of men who are willing to fight for her in the time of need. It seems to me, that, although we can find plenty of men, we cannot always find plenty of men who are first-class rifle shots, and these clubs are proposed for the express purpose of teaching men how to shoot. Why should any man, when he joins one of these clubs, object to signing an agreement to serve ? He knows that the reason that the club is formed is to make men first-class rifle shots so that, in case of need, his services would be worth something to the country. If it were not for that nobody would wish him to join that club. I cannot see any reason why a man who joins a club of that kind should object to signing an agreement to serve in case his services are required. I am perfectly well aware that the governmnt can find plenty of men, as it has done in the past, but it is those men who have proved themselves to be first-class shots that should be the first asked to join when they are required. I do not see any hardship in calling on a man, when the government assists him, either with money, or with ammunition, or by giving him a first-class rifle range, to come forward as a militiaman in the defence of his country.	*


The MINISTER OP MILITIA AND DEFENCE (Hon. F. W. Borden).: Mr. Speaker; I think we should all be very much obliged to the hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Hughes) for having brought this matter up. I assume, however, that in doing so, his object was simply to discuss the matter and not with any idea of tying the hands of the department by the actual passage of this resolution. There can be no question as to the vital importance of rifle practice to the militia. The fact is that without it the militia amounts to nothing. That being the case, as I have said recently in another place, the department has been considering the establishment of lifle associations in the country. I expected that before this the proposals would have been formulated and published in the Gazette, but owing to a discussion which took place at the rifle as-41*
sociation meeting the other day, I thought it was desirable to give a little more consideration to the matter. I hope before the militia estimates are considered that the regulations will have been published. I think my hon. friend from Haldimand (Mr. Thompson) will, perhaps, change his opinion later as to the desirability of applying no test to the men who become members of the proposed associations. I agree with the hon. gentleman from Victoria (Mr. Hughes) that it is desirable that a test of some kind should be applied in order to make sure of the good faith of the men to whom we supply rifles and free ammunition to learn the art of rifle shooting. It is the custom of a good many people in the Dominion to pursue rifle shooting simply as a pleasure without any idea of carrying it further in case of necessity. I have no objection to that, but I do not think that we should supply these persons with free ammunition, and it is to make it necessary that those to whom we supply the rifles and ammunition should put their marksmanship to some practical use that we apply the test. Now, that my hon. friend from North Victoria has attained his object in bringing about the discussion I understand that he will withdraw his motion.


Robert Laird Borden: I. wish to ask from the minister whether or not his department has under consideration the desirability of training young men throughout the country in the art of riding and manageing horses. I know that progress must be gradual in these things, but it seems to me that this is a matter which the department might take into consideration. In connection with that, the question arises as to whether we can train men throughout the Dominion to shoot from horseback. That also seems to be a very desirable, if not a necessary part of a soldier's training in these days.


The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE.: This matter will be discussed on the estimates. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Borden) will remember that last session the question of establishing mounted rifles was thoroughly discussed, and I stated that we would make a beginning in Manitoba and the North-west. I think a school will be established, probably in the city of Winnipeg or some part of Manitoba for a coi*ps of the kind designated by the hon. gentleman.


Samuel Hughes: I think the hon. member for Victoria, B.C. (Hon. Mr. Prior) as well as the hon. Minister of Militia slightly misunderstood the remarks of the hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Thompson). I am sure I voice the opinion of the House in congratulating the hon. gentleman (Mr. Thompson) on the very masterly manner in which he handled the subject. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Thompson) did not at all object to the rifle men

signing themselves. He took it for granted that every man who trained for rifle shooting would be ready to come to the front in case of necessity. At the same time there are a great many young fellows who might not in the immediate future wish to enroll themselves in the militia, but who would wish to have a rifle training and would in case of necessity come to the front. X stated at the outset that all I wished to do was to place this matter before the minister so that in the framing of his rifle association regulations he might keep it in view. With all due deference to my hon. friend from Norfolk (Hon. Mr. Tisdale), what we want is a large number of men who can shoot well. I am of the opinion from a rather long experience in the business, that the battalions and companies which make the best general average in shooting are the battalions that include among them a few of these good shots. You must have a few enthusiasts to set the lead so that the others will follow. My motion touches the men who have already signed and are already in the ranks. The highest prize of riflemen in this country is the Bisley team, and numbers of our militia men are prohibited from competing 'in that under present conditions. The country battalions have no rifle ranges and not a tithe of the opportunities our friends from the cities have. I should not wish for a moment to deiirive the city corps of the advantages they have, but I would like to see some encouragement given to the boys on the side roads who have proven to be quite their equals-X will not say the superiors-of the lads from the cities and towns. The experience of the South African war is that the men who could shoot straight, mighty soon taught the Boers to fear them. The Boers learned the corps that could shoot straight just as soon as the British themselves did, and when these gentlemen were around the Boers avoided them most religiously. Now, that I have drawn the attention of the Minister of Militia to the subject, I beg leave to withdraw my motion.
Motion withdrawn.


THE STAFF COLLEGE COURSE.
Samuel Hughes: That in the opinion oi this House it would be in the best interests of the active militia of Canada, were the books and data used in the staff college course of the Imperial service placed at the disposal of such officers of the Canadian militia as might wish to have the reading thereof.
He said : This is a very simple motion, Mr. Speaker. We have had in Canada for a few years past a kind of staff college course. If you look over the list of nearly all those who attended that school you will scarcely find the name of a man outside of the permanent corps, or else some one who has Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).
nothing to do. You will hardly find one of them who is a free citizen of Canada. If they are members of the permanent corps they should have had this training before they entered it. With all due respect these are not the type of men we want to have in the leading militia positions of this country. Very few of the men in the active militia can afford to spend three or four months-taking this staff course, and what I want is that the department should furnish to each of the officers, say above the grade of captain, the books that are on the list of that stall college course. I do not say it with any disrespect to the staff college course, but if any one who has taken an interest in militiary studies-as every officer of any standing in the militia should-reviews the books in that stall college course, he will be surprised to find that the great bulk of them will be in his own library.
My suggestion is that those books should be placed at the disposal of those officers who do not enjoy access to them, and do not know just where to write to get them. We must have a democratic militia. I have always contended in favour of our adopting such a system, but my arguments have been generally sneered at and frowned upon. To-day, however, the best men in the British army have expressed themselves in favour of that policy, for advocating which I was met with all sorts of hostile prejudices in the days gone by. And in order to carry out that policy, you must give our rank and file the opportunities to read at their own homes at night or on Sundays and week evenings, these works which are used in the staff college course, and I do not know that an evening could be better spent at our annual camp meetings than by having it devoted to an examination on these works, with an occasional lecture on them by some one of the officers. I have no desire to press this motion, but simply wish to draw the attention of the minister to the matter, in the hope that he will give it his consideration.
Motion withdrawn.
On motion of the Prime Minister, House adjourned at 5.50 p.m.

Tuesday, March 12, 1901.