2012/09/10/#juju-dev.txt

[03:26] <davecheney> shitballs, I deleted by ssh branch before pushing it
[03:26] <davecheney> crap -- have to start again
[06:36] <wrtp> davecheney: aw shit, i've managed to avoid doing that so far, but i've come close
[06:37] <wrtp> davecheney: morning BTW!
[06:37] <wrtp> fwereade: hiya
[06:38] <fwereade> wrtp, heyhey
[06:38] <wrtp> davecheney: i wanted to use that branch too
[06:38] <fwereade> davecheney, morning
[06:39] <fwereade> wrtp, sorry I haven't reviewed it properly yet, I'll do that right now
[06:39] <wrtp> fwereade: np. that would be great, ta!
[06:41] <davecheney> wrtp: s'ok, rewritten already
[06:41] <wrtp> fwereade: is there are reason that state.Initialize doesn't take a *config.Config ?
[06:41] <wrtp> s/are/a/
[06:41] <davecheney> wrtp: maybe that is my failt
[06:41] <davecheney> fault
[06:41] <fwereade> wrtp, I don't think so, no
[06:41] <davecheney> wrtp: also, since I patched that issue in the TLS lib
[06:41] <fwereade> wrtp, ie I think it probably should
[06:41] <davecheney> not a single EOF from etc
[06:42] <wrtp> fwereade: i was just looking at if len(c.EnvConfig) == 0 and thinking that it should probably be checking that the config was accepted by the config package
[06:42] <davecheney> also, if you are following tip, cgo is broken again, http://codereview.appspot.com/6501101/
[06:42] <davecheney> ^ apply this for general satisfaction
[06:44] <wrtp> davecheney: i haven't followed tip for a while now, as i haven't been working on go core stuff. there is something i've been meaning to do though, and i may have some time in the next few days as carmen's away for a bit.
[06:45] <davecheney> wrtp: some awesome imrpovements to 6g coming
[06:45] <davecheney> at least 15% improvement across the board
[06:45] <davecheney> and substantial reduction in stack size
[06:45] <wrtp> davecheney: which bit are you referring to?
[06:45] <wrtp> davecheney: (i've been following golang-dev, but skimming it and missing quite a bit)
[06:46] <davecheney> http://codereview.appspot.com/6501110/
[06:46] <davecheney> http://codereview.appspot.com/6494107/
[06:46] <davecheney> and so forth
[06:46] <davecheney> filtering out all the LEAQ's
[06:46] <davecheney> issue 1914
[06:47] <wrtp> davecheney: great. yeah, there's so much potential optimisation.
[06:47] <wrtp> davecheney: i'm really looking forward to russ's Grand Optimisation branch whenever it might arrive
[06:47] <davecheney> wrtp: this one is nice too http://codereview.appspot.com/6506089/
[06:49] <davecheney> the big improvements are in stack usage
[06:49] <davecheney> reflect.Value.call consumes a kilobyte of stack on x64!
[06:49] <wrtp> davecheney: that will help a lot
[06:49] <wrtp> davecheney: woah
[06:49] <davecheney> remy has shaved 1/4 off that
[06:49] <davecheney> but it's stupid large
[06:50] <davecheney> so any time that method comes near you, it's a stack split for sure
[06:50] <davecheney> and an expensive one
[06:50] <wrtp> davecheney: i'm not too surprised - it's a complex piece of code
[06:50] <davecheney> nah, it's just long
[06:50] <wrtp> davecheney: things will be better when the runtime knows what size of stack is likely to be necessary.
[06:50] <davecheney> if it was split up
[06:50] <davecheney> the stack could be reused because it works top to bottom
[06:51] <davecheney> wrtp: i hope that is more than a pipe dream
[06:51] <wrtp> davecheney: i don't see why it shouldn't work. a best-case stack size calculation should not be out of reach
[06:51] <davecheney> wrtp: lp:~dave-cheney/juju-core/093-cmd-juju-ssh/
[06:53] <wrtp> davecheney: another optimisation i thought would be nice is to cache the function value from the itab when an interface value doesn't change.
[06:53] <davecheney> wrtp: daniel morosing has been working on that one for a while
[06:53] <wrtp> davecheney: that could save quite a bit in tight loops calling interfaces
[06:54] <davecheney> wrtp: http://codereview.appspot.com/6351090/ ?maybe?
[06:55] <wrtp> davecheney: i don't think so
[06:55] <wrtp> davecheney: that's about interface type conversion; i'm just talking about interface calling
[06:55] <davecheney> wrtp: does taht require runtime support ?
[06:56] <davecheney> i'm guessing it does, but for some reason I can't think of where it is in the runtime
[06:56] <wrtp> davecheney: i don't think so
[06:56] <wrtp> davecheney: the compiler generates the code to call methods
[06:57] <davecheney> which must take the interface type, and look it up in a table to get the func addr of the i impl
[06:58] <davecheney> anyone heard from mark lately ?
[06:59] <fwereade> wrtp, sorry, missed you; you may be right, I was trying to avoid getting sidetracked into fixing too much in one CL though :)
[06:59] <fwereade> wrtp, reviewed https://codereview.appspot.com/6501106/
[06:59] <wrtp> davecheney: yeah, probably best in another CL
[07:00] <wrtp> fwereade: thanks!
[07:00] <wrtp> fwereade: i used VarDir because it was niemeyer's suggestion originally ("all directories are juju directories")
[07:00] <fwereade> wrtp, you probably won't agree with it all
[07:00] <wrtp> fwereade: but i'd personally be very happy to use JujuDir.
[07:01] <wrtp> fwereade: in fact i agree it's a better name
[07:01] <fwereade> wrtp, cool :)
[07:01] <fwereade> wrtp, we'll have to see how it does then :)_
[07:01] <fwereade> wrtp, JujuRoot, perhaps?
[07:02] <wrtp> fwereade: how about Machiner.simpleContainer ?
[07:02] <fwereade> wrtp, (btw, sorry, I feel the review comments skewed rather negative, the "lots to like" is the overriding impression though)
[07:02] <wrtp> fwereade: we can't stick with container.Simple as a global
[07:03] <wrtp> fwereade: as we need to be able to pass in VarDir
[07:03] <fwereade> wrtp, well, outside of testing, when do we need to do that?
[07:03] <wrtp> fwereade: always
[07:03] <wrtp> fwereade: there's no global VarDir any more
[07:04] <wrtp> fwereade: and you can invoke commands with --juju-dir
[07:04] <wrtp> fwereade: (which works now, BTW)
[07:05] <fwereade> wrtp, hmm, I think I have an odd perspective on this, but I did a bunch of agent stuff over the w/e, and I'm (say) 90% sure that an Agent type is (1) a good thing and (2) the appropriate home for JujuDir
[07:05] <fwereade> wrtp, so ISTM that it's not actually the container's responsibility (but that initDir and logDir are)
[07:06] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm not sure what you mean by "the ... home for JujuDir"
[07:06] <wrtp> fwereade: it's just a parameter
[07:07] <fwereade> wrtp, it's a parameter used in several places, all of which IMO become nicer once an Agent type is added
[07:08] <wrtp> fwereade: so an Agent would be a parameter to the Container?
[07:08] <fwereade> wrtp, perhaps it would help if I propose -wip my current branch (which is very very unfinished but I hope instructive)
[07:08] <fwereade> wrtp, I *think* so, yes, it comes out quite nice IMO
[07:10] <wrtp> fwereade: i'll maybe give you a glance at another unfinished branch of mine to get your thoughts too
[07:11] <fwereade> wrtp, cool -- I'm a little worried that we may be about to collide actually, a lot of the ugliness in https://codereview.appspot.com/6500095 will evaporate once your VarDir branch is merged
[07:15] <fwereade> wrtp, the underlying insight that led me in this direction is that all the agents really *are* the same in that they should all be named, because they do in fact all correspond to a single state entity, and that messing around with --machine-id and --unit-name and not-having-one-for-provisioning is actually a side-effect of missing this insight
[07:15] <fwereade> wrtp, ofc it may, as always, be crack
[07:16] <wrtp> fwereade:  i'm absorbing it
[07:16] <wrtp> fwereade: i was thinking about something a little similar in some ways actually
[07:16] <wrtp> fwereade: i wondered if we could have a single "jujud agent <agent-name>" command
[07:17] <fwereade> wrtp, I've been keeping that out of mind
[07:17] <fwereade> wrtp, because I think it is *probably* right but that we are not quite there yet
[07:18] <fwereade> wrtp, once we have upgraders for everything, and (if it passes muster) agent.Agent, it will I think be a good time to move the upgrading task out of the Kind-specific tasks, and make it all happen at the Agent level
[07:19] <wrtp> fwereade: the one thing i'm not sure about is having a single agent.Run for all the agents.
[07:19] <fwereade> wrtp, ISTM that the list-of-tasks abstraction is an excellent one
[07:19] <wrtp> fwereade: i think that's the kind of direction i was heading with my "runner" package and it was deemed crackful
[07:19] <fwereade> wrtp, bah
[07:20] <fwereade> wrtp, my feeling is that list-of-tasks is *exactly* the thing that differentiates multiple agents
[07:20] <wrtp> fwereade: it depends whether we think that *all* agents *always* will be a simple set of concurrent tasks
[07:21] <fwereade> wrtp, that STM to be the assumption underlying the worker package, and it seems to have served us well so far
[07:21] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm not sure that's true actually
[07:21] <wrtp> fwereade: the workers can be used in any way
[07:22] <wrtp> fwereade: they *happen* to implement the same interface, but there's no requirement that they do so
[07:24] <wrtp> fwereade: i do like the the factoring-out of the UpgradedError logic though.
[07:24] <wrtp> fwereade: BTW why does this code deserve its own package? it seems like it would still live well in cmd/jujud
[07:25] <wrtp> fwereade: ah! but you want to pass Agents around to other packages.
[07:25] <fwereade> wrtp, yep, exactly
[07:25] <fwereade> wrtp, like I say, might all be crack, but it seems like a small amount of code that is useful in several places
[07:26] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm not sure. i think that simply passing JujuDir as a parameter work well for many of the methods
[07:26] <wrtp> s/work/works/
[07:27] <wrtp> fwereade: and agent name when appropriate, i guess
[07:27] <fwereade> wrtp, and agent kind...
[07:27] <fwereade> wrtp, and frequently state info...
[07:27] <wrtp> fwereade: when do we need agent kind?
[07:28] <fwereade> wrtp, any time we want to get a tools dir (according to the agent-foo-123, provisioning-whatever naming scheme I thought we discussed on friday)
[07:28] <wrtp> fwereade: that comes from the agent name, no?
[07:28] <fwereade> wrtp, ah, ok, sorry, I misunderstood which name you were talking about
[07:29] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm thinking that every agent has a unique name
[07:29] <fwereade> er sorry s/agent-foo/unit-foo/
[07:30] <wrtp> fwereade: i think i'd be happier if the agent package had stuff for agent identification and location only, and all the *actual* agent logic lived elsewhere.
[07:30] <fwereade> wrtp, I am also thinking that, but I've called it "badge" because ISTM that the *name* is the name of the attached state entity, and the agent itself is somewhat different
[07:30] <wrtp> fwereade: when would you need "name" instead of "badge"?
[07:32] <fwereade> wrtp, if one takes the Agent abstraction seriously it becomes useful to pass a *Agent into (eg) uniter, instead of the name/dir bits, and then the unit name is directly accessible from there
[07:32] <wrtp> fwereade: but the uniter knows the *Unit? and the name comes from that, no? or perhaps the name is something else and i'm misunderstanding
[07:33] <fwereade> wrtp, no, the Uniter has never been started with a *Unit
[07:33] <wrtp> fwereade: why not, out of interest?
[07:33] <wrtp> fwereade: it would seem logical
[07:33] <fwereade> wrtp, there's no reason to?
[07:34] <fwereade> wrtp, we have available a state and a name, and we need the state anyway
[07:35] <fwereade> wrtp, it's just smearing the state setup across the uniter and its client to no apparent benefit
[07:35] <fwereade> wrtp, s/it's/pregetting the unit is/
[07:36] <wrtp> fwereade: i think that when the uniter does upgrades, the caller of the uniter will need to get the unit anyway
[07:36] <wrtp> fwereade: because it needs to be passed into the upgrader.
[07:36] <wrtp> fwereade: same as the MA
[07:36] <fwereade> wrtp, sure, but the MA takes the wrong params itself
[07:36] <fwereade> wrtp, where's the state info?
[07:37] <fwereade> wrtp, (another Agent field, you'll notice :))
[07:38] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm not sure. these are things that individual agents need, but it feels you're making them into universal parameters, and i'm not sure that's necessary.
[07:38] <wrtp> fwereade: and, um, i think that's a red herring in fact.
[07:39] <wrtp> fwereade: we'll still need to get the *Unit before calling the Uniter
[07:39] <fwereade> wrtp, go on?
[07:39] <wrtp> fwereade: so we may as well pass the *Unit into the uniter
[07:40] <fwereade> wrtp, is it just that we want one to create the upgrader?
[07:40] <wrtp> fwereade: yes. but if we've already got one, passing it into the Uniter seems like a fine thing. why pass in a name when you've already got the thing itself?
[07:42] <wrtp> fwereade: BTW with your current arrangement, you *can't* pass a *agent.Agent into the Uniter
[07:42] <fwereade> wrtp, ISTM like a nicer interface to pass a *State and a name than a *State and a *Unit
[07:42] <fwereade> wrtp, you just talking about package dependencies?
[07:42] <wrtp> fwereade: yeah
[07:42] <fwereade> wrtp, yeah, doesn't feel insurmountable to me
[07:43] <wrtp> fwereade: why a name nicer than the thing it's naming?
[07:43] <wrtp> fwereade: i *think* it's inherent to this approach. the Agent calls the worker, which needs the Agent. cyclic dependency.
[07:44] <wrtp> s/why a/why is a/ :-)
[07:44] <fwereade> wrtp, surely it's just a matter of re-extracting an agent conf type and passing that around?
[07:45] <wrtp> fwereade: so then we have *another* package, just to contain that type?
[07:45] <fwereade> wrtp, which probably helps to address the run-mixed-with-info concerns
[07:45] <wrtp> fwereade: why not factor out all the run stuff, and make the agent type *solely* concerned with agent storage?
[07:45] <wrtp> fwereade: then there's no problem
[07:46] <fwereade> wrtp, I think that's the type that holds most of the methods -- it's just Run and Stop that move elsewhere
[07:46] <wrtp> fwereade: agreed
[07:47] <wrtp> fwereade: in the end, i think you've got something like: type Agent {Name string; JujuDir string}
[07:47] <fwereade> wrtp, what about kind and state info?
[07:47] <wrtp> fwereade: (i *think* putting the StateInfo in there is mixing concerns)
[07:47] <fwereade> wrtp, name me an agent that doesn't need a state info
[07:48] <wrtp> fwereade: the firewaller :-)
[07:48] <wrtp> fwereade: i know it's not its own agent, but it could be
[07:49] <fwereade> wrtp, so is your contention that if 4 things use something, and a 5th doesn't, it is apropriate to write 5 separate code paths rather than suffer the shame and indignity of an unused param? ;p
[07:49] <wrtp> fwereade: it's not really a matter of "which agent's don't need it" but "why is it living in this package, which is actually only to do with agent storage?"
[07:49] <wrtp> fwereade: i don't see that this would require any extra code paths
[07:49] <fwereade> wrtp, ah, hmm, I don;t think it is just concerned with agent storage, I think Conf is an imortant part
[07:50] <wrtp> fwereade: Conf?
[07:50] <fwereade> wrtp, Agent.Conf, which means we can write a Deploy wethod that works
[07:50] <fwereade> wrtp, well, in concert with other things, it does
[07:51] <fwereade> wrtp, rather than having the crazy doesn't-even-work-and-is-not-consistent-with-cloudinit Deploy we currently have
[07:51] <wrtp> fwereade: an explicit StateInfo param to Deploy seems quite reasonable to me
[07:51] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm already most of the way through fixing that
[07:52] <fwereade> wrtp, and to the machine agent, and to the unit agent, and (I presume) to the provisioning agent as well?
[07:52] <wrtp> fwereade: absolutely.
[07:52] <fwereade> wrtp, sorry s/agent/worker/g
[07:52] <wrtp> fwereade: i don't think an extra parameter is a problem
[07:53] <wrtp> fwereade: especially as it makes it obvious that this worker connects to the state
[07:53] <wrtp> fwereade: it would *not* be a parameter to the upgrader or to the firewaller
[07:53] <fwereade> wrtp, what? that's not why we pass it at all
[07:53] <wrtp> fwereade: no?
[07:53] <wrtp> fwereade: why do we pass it?
[07:53] <fwereade> wrtp, we pass it to the things that themselves need to set up new agents one way or another
[07:54] <wrtp> fwereade: indeed - things that need to connect to the state
[07:54] <fwereade> wrtp, the *State is handled outside and shared by many worker, and that really does need to be passed to everything
[07:54] <fwereade> wrtp, an MA doesn't connect to the state
[07:54] <fwereade> wrtp, sorry a Machiner
[07:54] <wrtp> fwereade: it starts things that do
[07:55] <fwereade> wrtp, yeah, exactly
[07:55] <wrtp> fwereade: so, indirectly, yes, it does.
[07:55] <fwereade> wrtp, I would like it if we used a definition of "connects to the state" that involved, y'know, opening a connection to the state ;p
[07:55] <wrtp> fwereade: lol
[07:56] <fwereade> wrtp, but yes, anyway, I see your perspective
[07:56] <wrtp> fwereade: i think of it like a capability
[07:57] <fwereade> wrtp, this is kinda by the by anyway
[07:58] <fwereade> wrtp, I'm explicitly *not* proposing a common worker creation interface taking an agent, because I felt it would lead to derails ;)
[07:58] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm just objecting to the fact we're stuffing StateInfo inside the agent package, when *nothing* in the agent package uses it. it's solely to avoid us passing an extra parameter.
[07:58] <fwereade> wrtp, Conf uses it...
[07:59] <fwereade> wrtp, and IMO it's a really nice thing to be able to take the exact same object and run it, or install it, or generate the scripts required to install it
[07:59] <fwereade> wrtp, it feels like that's what an agent "is"
[07:59] <fwereade> wrtp, you need exactly the same information to run one, and to generate a conf for it
[08:00] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm not sure that Conf lives inside agent.
[08:00] <wrtp> fwereade: i think it lives inside container.
[08:00] <wrtp> fwereade: i've had some thought as to how container should work
[08:01] <fwereade> wrtp, interesting
[08:01] <wrtp> fwereade: that's what i was planning to work on this morning
[08:02] <wrtp> fwereade: but your thought of "to be able to take the exact same object and run it, or install it, or generate the scripts required to install it" is exactly where i was coming from.
[08:02] <fwereade> wrtp, if your position is that Container is a good place for this then I am very happy to stand back and let you get on with it
[08:02] <wrtp> fwereade: i was planning to filch a pattern of yours from the unit agent testing, which i rather liked
[08:03] <fwereade> wrtp, because my spidey-sense kept saying "use container in cloudinit", but I couldn't figure out how to
[08:03] <wrtp> fwereade: i *think* it is
[08:03] <wrtp> fwereade: that is my plan
[08:03] <fwereade> wrtp, sweet
[08:03] <wrtp> fwereade: the plan is for container to be able to generate shell scripts as well as running Deploy
[08:03] <fwereade> wrtp, ok, I just need to figure out what I can do that doesn't conflict with you
[08:04] <wrtp> fwereade: ok, sorry, i didn't realise you were so deep into this area
[08:04] <wrtp> fwereade: the global VarDir was a prelude
[08:04] <fwereade> wrtp, because, well, I really want to make the UA just run a Uniter, but the prospect of essentially writing more duped tests inside jujud bugged me enough to go looking for abstractions :)
[08:05] <fwereade> wrtp, I think we have actually been for a couple of days, but I think we're coming at the problem from opposite ends so it hasn't been entirely apparent
[08:05] <wrtp> fwereade: yeah, i know what you mean. but i think we can write shared tests without shoehorning them all into the same code.
[08:06] <fwereade> wrtp, it is extremely reassuring to me that we seem to be in broad agreement about the general problems depsite our differing perspectives :)
[08:06] <wrtp> fwereade: agreed
[08:07] <wrtp> fwereade: like two ends of an inductive proof coming together...
[08:07] <fwereade> wrtp, yeah :)
[08:07] <wrtp> fwereade: now we just have to make the terms match
[08:09] <fwereade> wrtp, the trouble is that getting a running Uniter is blocked on getting Container to run a unit agent
[08:09] <wrtp> fwereade: ok, i'll try and get it out very soon
[08:09] <fwereade> wrtp, I guess I can at least just write a really dumb unit agent + test, on top of your VarDir branch
[08:10] <fwereade> wrtp, that should be pretty independent
[08:10] <wrtp> fwereade: sounds like a reasonable way to go
[08:10] <fwereade> wrtp, cool
[08:11] <fwereade> wrtp, I look forward to seeing what you do with container
[08:13] <Aram> moin.
[08:13] <wrtp> fwereade: here's the likely crackful branch i alluded to earlier. it gives us PA upgrading. but at what cost? what d'ya think? https://codereview.appspot.com/6493101/
[08:18] <fwereade> wrtp, haha, I'll take a look
[08:24] <fwereade> wrtp, I think I'm -1 on that, it feels like too much special-casing in state
[08:25] <fwereade> wrtp, I think it would be better to either charm the provisioner (which I don;t think is a good use of our time right now) or to build the provisioner-deploying directly into machiner
[08:26] <fwereade> wrtp, I thought it was agreed a while ago that we'd be adding a provisioner field to state.machine somehow, and I was expecting to use that (in the absence of a nice charmy way to do it)
[08:27] <fwereade> wrtp, (and *that* then makes me think that, hell, the MA itself should probably just run the PA tasks if it's configured to be a provisioner machine, and drop the whole idea of a separate agent
[08:27] <fwereade> )
[08:28] <wrtp> fwereade: i wanted to go in that kind of direction, but niemeyer thinks that the PA should have its own entity in state
[08:28] <fwereade> wrtp, foiled again :(
[08:28] <wrtp> fwereade: which implies loads more mechanism
[08:28] <fwereade> wrtp, indeed
[08:29] <wrtp> fwereade: which i'm really reluctant to do, because it's actually *identical* to what Unit does
[08:29] <wrtp> fwereade: except there's no charm for an agent
[08:29] <wrtp> fwereade: hence my AgentService
[08:30] <fwereade> wrtp, yeah, I understand, I just think it's basically inferior to a `provisioner bool` field in state.Machien
[08:30] <fwereade> wrtp, or at least the underlying state if not that type
[08:30] <wrtp> fwereade: except it's much more flexible than that
[08:30] <wrtp> fwereade: it means PAs are independent of MAs
[08:31] <wrtp> fwereade: ... well...
[08:31] <wrtp> fwereade: an MA must start a PA, as with any unit
[08:31] <wrtp> (non-subordinate unit)
[08:31] <fwereade> wrtp, I'm not sure -- a separate provisioning state entity would be, but I'm suspicious that the AgentService thing feels unhelpfully cross-cutting
[08:32] <wrtp> fwereade: you're probably right.
[08:32] <wrtp> fwereade: the other thing it offers is the capability to add any new agent of our choice for free.
[08:32] <wrtp> fwereade: *currently* we only have three agent types, but that may well change.
[08:33] <wrtp> fwereade: i would be happy to just add a bool to a Machine for now.
[08:33] <fwereade> wrtp, sure, I'm just not convinced that we can predict the circumstances that might lead us to change well enough to call it right
[08:33] <fwereade> wrtp, that would be my choice, indeed, but I guess it's niemeyer's call
[08:34] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm not sure i'll ever show him this branch
[08:34] <fwereade> wrtp, but I would like it most if we were able to drop the conecpt of a PA entirely, I really don't see why the MA shouldn't run those tasks if so configured
[08:35] <wrtp> fwereade: i agree. it seems fine for a machine-level task.
[08:35] <wrtp> fwereade: ah, there is one issue
[08:35] <fwereade> wrtp, ah bother, there's usually something ;p
[08:36] <wrtp> fwereade: we won't give PA-like authority to all MAs
[08:36] <wrtp> fwereade: but given that everything has all authority currently, i'm not sure it's a problem for the time being
[08:37] <fwereade> wrtp, I don't *think* that's a serious problem... I presume the magic secure API layer will be able to grant/revoke appropriately
[08:37] <fwereade> wrtp, yeah, exactly
[08:37] <wrtp> fwereade: yeah
[08:38] <fwereade> wrtp, ok, well, I think we know what we're doing, I wish you luck :)
[08:38] <wrtp> fwereade: thanks! toi aussi
[08:45] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm thinking along these kinds of lines for the container API: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1196267/
[08:46] <fwereade> wrtp, +-0, I'm not sure I know enough to judge yet
[08:47] <fwereade> wrtp, I think I'll need to see some actual use :)
[08:47] <wrtp> fwereade: ok. i think that gives enough for use by both cloudinit and agents, but we'll see.
[09:47] <fwereade> wrtp, fwiw, it crosses my mind that agent commands should probably start their Run methods with `a.Conf.JujuDir = ctx.AbsPath(a.Conf.JujuDir)`, even if that's frequently a no-op
[09:48] <wrtp> fwereade: interesting point.
[09:48] <wrtp> fwereade: or should that happen where something passes the jujudir to something that might change directory?
[09:49] <fwereade> wrtp, I *think* that we should never be depending on working directory internally anyway
[09:50] <fwereade> wrtp, and I also think it's largely moot because we'll basically always be passing absolute paths anyway, but I think it will be more technically correct and mildly convenient for testing
[09:51] <fwereade> wrtp, (it's feeling very hard to write this code because I forsee it changing significantly, but I'm still not quite sure in what direction :))
[09:51] <wrtp> fwereade: yeah, maybe. i don't really have a feel for how --juju-dir might be used in practice
[09:52] <fwereade> wrtp, IMO it should just always be passed explicitly
[09:52] <wrtp> fwereade: that sounds reasonable
[09:52] <wrtp> fwereade: so we should make it a required flag?
[09:52] <wrtp> fwereade: well, tbh defaulting to /var/lib/juju seems ok too
[09:53] <wrtp> fwereade: we could just give an error if the path was *not* absolute.
[09:53] <fwereade> wrtp, I'm inclined to just drop the defaults -- if anyone's ever running itby hand i think we want it to be explicit, and it doesn't cost us much to explicitly set it when generating upstart scripts
[09:53] <wrtp> fwereade: but AbsPath seems like a reasonable thing to do too
[09:53] <wrtp> fwereade: indeed
[09:54] <fwereade> wrtp, all it means is that you *can* run it with a relative path and have it do the right thing in all situations
[09:55] <fwereade> wrtp, although, maybe it won't be able to find the tools necessarily
[09:55] <wrtp> fwereade: true. i'm just wondering when we'd ever actually want to run an agent from the command line
[09:55] <wrtp> fwereade: it doesn't need to find the tools
[09:55] <fwereade> wrtp, when things are weird and we're trying to figure out what is going on :)
[09:55] <fwereade> wrtp, unit agent does
[09:56] <wrtp> fwereade: good point.
[09:56] <wrtp> fwereade: i think if things are weird, it's easy for us to pass an absolute pathname :-)
[09:57] <fwereade> wrtp, yeah, maybe just requiring abs is the right way to go
[09:58] <fwereade> wrtp, cheers
[09:58] <wrtp> fwereade: np
[10:32] <wrtp> Aram: morning
[10:32] <Aram> hello there.
[11:30] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm looking at the upstart package and wondering whether it might be best folded into container
[11:30] <wrtp> fwereade: it's juju specific, and the actual code is fairly trivial.
[11:31] <wrtp> fwereade: and in doing so, i wondered: is there any time we actually care about Service.{Start,Remove} idempotency?
[11:49] <fwereade> wrtp, hmmm, +0.9 to folding it into container
[11:50] <fwereade> wrtp, not sure about start/remove but it's not like it's heavily used, so probably not
[11:50] <wrtp> fwereade: thanks
[12:17] <fwereade> wrtp, is there anything I should have done to induce a charm in a dummy env to be downloadable?
[12:17] <wrtp> fwereade: i don't *think* so. it should just work, assuming it's pushing to storage.
[12:18] <fwereade> wrtp, ah, why might it not push to storage? do I have to tell it to expect puts/gets?
[12:18] <wrtp> fwereade: i don't think so
[12:19] <wrtp> fwereade: without seeing what you're doing, i'm not sure i can help much
[12:20] <fwereade> wrtp, I'm doing http://paste.ubuntu.com/1196552/ and expecting that a uniter will be able to download the result
[12:20] <fwereade> wrtp, Get http://127.0.0.1:38234/dummyenv/private/local_3a_series_2f_dummy-1: dial tcp 127.0.0.1:38234: connection refused
[12:21] <fwereade> wrtp, I can investigate myself, I'm just hoping for a shortcut to enlightenment, don't spend time on it :)
[12:22] <wrtp> fwereade: i think it *should* work.
[12:22] <fwereade> wrtp, cool, that is useful data :)
[12:22] <fwereade> wrtp, cheers
[12:23] <wrtp> fwereade: i *think* the juju deploy tests are testing this case
[12:23] <wrtp> fwereade: perhaps you're doing a Reset by accident?
[12:24] <fwereade> wrtp, hmm, I will poke around, that sounds quite plausible
[12:24] <fwereade> wrtp, cheers
[12:26] <fwereade> wrtp, bah, I trashed pkg and now it works
[12:26] <fwereade> wrtp, well it fails differently actually but in a much more scrutable way :)
[12:26] <wrtp> fwereade: good. i wonder what went on there
[12:27] <fwereade> wrtp, no idea, but I have found "trash pkg" to be a useful troubleshooting step every so often
[12:27] <fwereade> wrtp, couldn't remotely say what it's correlated with
[12:27] <wrtp> fwereade: i almost never do that.
[12:27] <wrtp> fwereade: i wonder how your setup differs
[12:27] <fwereade> wrtp, it's probably related to my bloody-minded insistence on keeping separate source dirs and swapping them around
[12:27] <wrtp> fwereade: lol
[12:28] <wrtp> fwereade: i'm impressed you manage to do that
[12:28] <fwereade> wrtp, meh, it fits my brain better and it costs my fingers little
[12:28] <wrtp> fwereade: ah, yes, i understand why you have the problems now
[12:29] <fwereade> wrtp, I presume something is checking for newer-than
[12:29] <wrtp> fwereade: you're moving source directories, but none of the source files change mtime
[12:29] <fwereade> wrtp, indeed
[12:29] <wrtp> fwereade: yeah.
[12:29] <fwereade> wrtp, the amazing thing honestly is that it works so well so much of the time ;p
[12:29] <wrtp> fwereade: you should trash the pkg directory each time you change source dirs
[12:29] <wrtp> fwereade: or touch all the .go files :-)
[12:30] <fwereade> wrtp, yeah, it's really just that actual adverse consequences from failing to do so are surprisingly rare, and so I sometimes forget :/
[12:31] <wrtp> fwereade: fair enough.
[12:34] <fwereade> wrtp, separate question: is a JujuConnSuite meant to be already bootstrapped? I thought it was but can't see where it's done
[12:34] <wrtp> fwereade: it is, i believe
[12:35] <wrtp> fwereade: search for Bootstrap on juju/testing/conn.go
[12:35] <wrtp> s/on/in/
[12:36]  * fwereade suspects he searched for Bots instead of Boots :/
[12:36] <fwereade> wrtp, thanks
[12:36] <wrtp> fwereade: we don't have bots yet :-)
[12:36] <fwereade> wrtp, for some reason "botstrap" seems to be one of my muscle-memory typos
[12:48] <Aram> wrtp: do you understand the purpose of this function? https://codereview.appspot.com/6503086/diff/7002/mstate/watcher/watcher.go#newcode168
[12:48] <wrtp> Aram: yeah
[12:48] <wrtp> Aram: it's for using in tests
[12:48] <Aram> hmm.
[12:49] <wrtp> Aram: so that we can have shorter timeouts when waiting for nothing to happen
[12:49] <Aram> ok, but then we don't need to export it publicly?
[12:49] <wrtp> Aram: no, it's for any tests that use watchers
[12:49] <Aram> it can be in export_test.go
[12:50] <wrtp> Aram: the idea is that you can change something in the state, call Sync, then you know that the watcher will have triggered any sends that might happen
[12:50] <wrtp> Aram: no it can't
[12:50] <wrtp> Aram: that would be ok if we only wanted to use in tests of the watcher package itself
[12:58] <wrtp> Aram: i can't say i'm enormously keen on the idea, tbh. i'm not sure what particular advantage you get from having the done channels.
[12:59] <wrtp> niemeyer: yo!
[12:59] <Aram> wrtp: interesting, I thought the trick of exporting something for a pkg_test package from a pkg package _test file worked for every package used in a test, not only for pkg_test.
[12:59] <wrtp> Aram: no indeed not
[12:59] <niemeyer> Hello!
[12:59] <fwereade> niemeyer, heyhey
[12:59] <Aram> hi.
[13:01]  * wrtp gets a bite of lunch
[13:04] <niemeyer> Aram: Just reproposed the branch
[13:04] <niemeyer> Aram: I think I've fixed the spurious error with Sync
[13:07] <niemeyer> Okay, I'm starting my morning by implementing a watcher, probably the EnvironConfig one, to get an idea if the infrastructure is working well for real in an end-to-end case, and will push that for review
[13:07] <niemeyer> After that I'm back in review mode, perhaps for the rest of the week
[13:08] <Aram> niemeyer: I'm running the test in a loop.
[13:08] <niemeyer> Aram: Cool
[13:08] <niemeyer> Aram: Any more errors?
[13:08] <Aram> nothing yet
[13:08] <niemeyer> Aram: Superb
[13:09] <niemeyer> Aram: It was a race.. the test is asserting very defined behavior, and with StartSync() we can actually move on without the watcher having done anything
=== wrtp is now known as rogpeppe
[14:52] <fwereade> niemeyer, I am becoming fretful about how service configs change when charms are upgraded... is this something we've already thought about in detail, that I've missed?
[14:54] <niemeyer> fwereade: Hmm
[14:54] <niemeyer> fwereade: I'm afraid to not know the context
[14:55] <fwereade> niemeyer, well, just that units running an old version will not necessarily be able to properly understand a new config, and vice versa
[14:56] <fwereade> niemeyer, this may just be a matter of "write your service configs carefully"
[14:56] <niemeyer> fwereade: No, you're right, I don't think we have given the problem proper consideration yet
[14:57] <fwereade> niemeyer, ok -- well, I kinda need to stop for a while now, but I will try to think it through a little
[14:57] <fwereade> niemeyer, just wanted to check there wasn't anything that sprang to mind :)
[14:58] <niemeyer> fwereade: It's probably easy to do something sane
[14:58] <niemeyer> fwereade: E.g. do not run the hook while service config doesnt
[14:58] <niemeyer> 't validate properly
[14:58] <niemeyer> fwereade: with the current charm
[14:59] <niemeyer> fwereade: I'd be happy for us to discuss this, yet postpone the solution until a second point, though
[14:59] <niemeyer> fwereade: Just so you don't get blocked on this for too long
[14:59] <niemeyer> fwereade: UNless the solution is trivial, of course
[15:00] <niemeyer> fwereade: (which it might be, given the above)
[15:14] <hazmat> fwereade, you mean incompatible stored value with new schema?
[15:15] <hazmat> fwereade, unset values with defaults should switch out to new defaults/types cleanly
[15:21] <niemeyer> hazmat: Configuration options may also have disappeared, and the removal is only handled properly on the new hook, for example
[15:21] <niemeyer> hazmat: It's worth pondering about the edge cases more carefully at some point
[15:22] <hazmat> definitely
[15:22] <niemeyer> MachineWatcher tests pass!
[15:23] <hazmat> niemeyer, fwiw i found out that the whole yaml speed thing, was because pyyaml needs a different calling convention to actually use the c ext.
[15:23] <niemeyer> hazmat: I think there's a distinction between the loader and the parser
[15:24] <niemeyer> hazmat: The C extension is used at all times for certain tasks, IIRC
[15:24] <hazmat> niemeyer, there is its a two part combo.. with callbacks
[15:24] <niemeyer> hazmat: Go and Py were doing the same things in C and the same things in native lang
[15:24] <niemeyer> hazmat: Or the same layer, anyway
[15:24] <hazmat> but dump/load wouldn't use the c ext opportunistically without changing the parameters
[15:25] <niemeyer> hazmat: Sure, as I understand it you can remove the higher level so it's all in C too
[15:25] <niemeyer> hazmat: So the stuff goyaml does in Go, can be done in C
[15:26] <hazmat> its messier to do but sure..  with the change it basically halves the test time, and triples the speed of status on large envs.
[15:26] <niemeyer> hazmat: Yeah, C is fast :-)
[15:26] <hazmat> :-)
[15:26] <niemeyer> hazmat: Wonder how things would look like in that old scale check
[15:26] <hazmat> we're going to have simulatenous juju sprints on different continents
[15:27] <niemeyer> hazmat: Hah, nice :)
[15:27] <hazmat> niemeyer, i've got a simulator now for scale testing large envs.. specifically for the other proj
[15:27] <hazmat> and  everyone does dev with it
[15:28] <hazmat> on the principal that the best way to ensure scaling is to incorporate it into dev pratice
[15:29] <niemeyer> hazmat: What does "everyone does dev with it" mean?
[15:33] <niemeyer> Aram, rogpeppe: A real watcher now: https://codereview.appspot.com/6497110
[15:33] <Aram> I'll take a look in a moment.
[15:34] <niemeyer> Aram: I'll apply rogpeppe's comments to the foundation, and then I think I'll have to step out from impl for a while to clean up reviews
[15:35] <niemeyer> Aram: Actually, I'll do one more cleanup on presence to bring it in line with watcher before I do that, but then it's back to you
[15:35] <niemeyer> So two more branches on my plate.. will handle those right away
[15:35] <Aram> niemeyer: cheers.
[15:37] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: s/Non-existing/Non-existing/ !? :-)
[15:37] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Non-existent?
[15:37] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah!
[15:37] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: oops, sorry
[15:37] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Cheers :)
[15:37] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: np
[16:37] <niemeyer> Watch helpers is up for review
[16:37] <niemeyer> I'll resend machine watchers again after lunch
[16:37] <niemeyer> biab
[16:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ping
[16:57] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ping
[16:57] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yo
[16:58] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm looking at fixing container, and i'm going around in circles a little bit
[16:58] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i wonder if i could run some ideas past you
[16:58] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Hmm, ok
[16:58] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Sure
[16:58] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: What's broken there?
[16:58] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so... container doesn't work at all currently
[16:59] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: it doesn't give the right flags to jujud etc
[16:59] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Aren't we using it in the real-world tests that are run?
[17:00] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm hoping it might be possible to make container use the same mechanism for installation as cloudinit
[17:00] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: no
[17:00] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: not yet
[17:00] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Hmm, ok
[17:00] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: everything that runs currently is started by cloudinit
[17:00] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: here's an idea i've had: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1197028/
[17:01] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: oops, one crucial line missing: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1197030/
[17:02] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: What is changing and why?
[17:02] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: the idea is to replace the container package with the agent package.
[17:03] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: then environs/cloudinit can use that package to generate its cloudinit scripts
[17:03] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: and agents can use that package to start other agents
[17:03] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: it would start agents in new containers if required
[17:03] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: In the last couple of weeks we've had three different versions of what an Agent is
[17:04] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yes, i think we're trying to find out :-)
[17:04] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: Agent may not be a good name here
[17:04] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yeah, but we have Agent today
[17:04] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: after all, it's just some information about an agent
[17:04] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: They exist already.. we can't give the same name to two different things
[17:05] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm not sure why not. this is just one package's idea of an agent. different namespace.
[17:05] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Our brains have a single namespace..
[17:05] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: It sucks to say "an agent" and having no idea about what it is
[17:05] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: agent.Info ?
[17:06] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: container?
[17:06] <niemeyer> :)
[17:06] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: What are we trying to fix?
[17:06] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: There's no problem statement yet that I can correlate to
[17:06] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: we're trying to put the upstart generation stuff in one place
[17:06] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: We have that.. that's container
[17:07] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ok, so let's call this package "container". and give it a similar API.
[17:07] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: (to the one i've proposed)
[17:07] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I'm not arguing for that even.. I'm asking you to tell me what I'm trying to fix :)
[17:07] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: currently the container package can't deploy a machine agent
[17:08] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Sounds sane.. it's used by the machine agent
[17:08] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'd like to be able to use it from environs/cloudinit
[17:10] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Hmm
[17:10] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: we've got these two pieces of code that are similar but different: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1197050/
[17:11] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: rather than copying all the logic from the latter to the former, i'd like to make both places use the same mechanism.
[17:11] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: What is similar among them?
[17:11] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: they should both be almost identical.
[17:12] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Not really, they are managing independent commands, that need independent info, in very different circumstances
[17:12] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: except one runs the action there and then; the other generates a shell script to do the same on the remote machine
[17:12] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: So what is actually similar?
[17:13] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: everything up to InstallCommands vs Install
[17:13] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Do we need a MachineConfig to deploy a unit?
[17:13] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: should be the same except that jujud agent arguments are different, but i think that need not be the case.
[17:14] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: we need a state info. and we need a VarDir. that's all it's used for.
[17:14] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Do we need a MachineConfig to deploy a unit?
[17:14] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i wasn't suggesting that we did.
[17:14] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: it is a question
[17:14] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: "No" is a fine answer
[17:15] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I'm arguing that they are doing different things, and asking for the similarities, and you're saying that they are pretty much exactly the same
[17:15] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: no. a MachineConfig is a concept unique to environs/cloudinit.
[17:15] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I don't see that
[17:15] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: and I'm showing you why that doesn't seem to be the case
[17:15] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: addAgentScript doesn't need a MachineConfig either
[17:16] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: We already have packages: container, upstart, cloudinit, environs/cloudinit, ...
[17:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i was thinking of merging the upstart package into container - it's pretty trivial and not actually that helpful.
[17:16] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: If we're adding another layer, it must be clear what that layer is
[17:16] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I'm not feeling we know that, given the line of thinking so far
[17:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i was not proposing adding a layer, but changing an existing layer
[17:17] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: The "agent" package is a new layer, apparently
[17:17] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: It doesn't address the needs of container
[17:17] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: doesn't it?
[17:17] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i was proposing it to replace container
[17:17] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I don't see the word "LXC" there
[17:18] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Nor the word unit
[17:18] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: should there be the word LXC there? or might it actually be ok to have that be an implementation detail of container?
[17:18] <rogpeppe> (or agent)
[17:19] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: It can be anything, but we need to know about what it is
[17:19] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: The proposal has to consider it, because that's exactly the reason why the container package exists
[17:19] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: likewise, does the mechanism for starting a unit agent need to know the *state.Unit? or might it be ok just to give it the info it actually needs?
[17:19] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: We can't obsolete the package without telling how it's going to work
[17:20] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: currently all we need to start a new unit in a container is the info provided in the proposal above.
[17:21] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: it's easy for the machine agent to derive that info from the *state.Unit and use that to call agent.Deploy (or container.Deploy)
[17:21] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Again, it's not about "currently", it's about how we handle the problem being addressed by "container"
[17:21] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ok. so let's see. what *is* the problem being addressed by "container"?
[17:22] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: We spent a lot of time thinking why we need that interface, I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts about how these problems we talked about will be handled
[17:23]  * rogpeppe goes back to look at those discussions.
[17:25] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Jun 14th
[17:25] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm there
[17:29] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm looking at this (http://paste.ubuntu.com/1040898/) and wondering what the container package actually wants from the *state.Unit value
[17:30] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: It wants to know what to deploy
[17:31] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: does it actually need to know any more than the args that need to be passed to jujud?
[17:32] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: How do we destroy a container given a list of arbitrary arguments to jujud?
[17:32] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: It feels like the thinking is very incipient
[17:33] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I see 14 lines in addAgentScript, where most of those lines are already based on abstractions
[17:33] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm not suggesting that the arbitrary args be a parameter to Deploy. but actually, we could easily make the jujud arguments uniform for all agents.
[17:33] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: The differences in the abstractions are exactly the things you're referring to
[17:33] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Like a description for the agent, the information used to build the command line, etc
[17:34] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I'm concerned that we're reinventing another wheel at this stage without even having the current wheels working
[17:35] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ok, i'll make it work, then we'll see if it's worth abstracting
[17:35] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i feel that it might be, but i agree that perhaps it's hard to tell at this stage.
[17:35] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: The right abstraction will likely take code out, rather than adding new layers such as Action, etc
[17:36] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah. the difficulty is we've got these actions that we can either perform here and now, or remotely. Action was a way of trying to make both work uniformly.
[17:37] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: one other thing
[17:37] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm been thinking about what new stuff we need to create to make the PA work in state.
[17:38] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: fwereade suggested earlier that we could just add a bool param to *state.Machine to say "run provisioning worker". so the MA would also be the PA when that's set.
[17:38] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that would make lots of things easier (we'd get everything for free) but perhaps it's a bad idea. what do you think?
[17:39] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Hmm
[17:40] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I can't see any bad sides either
[17:40] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: great!
[17:40] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that brings full upgrades about a week forward.
[17:41] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Well, and that's a huge good side :)
[17:41] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: definitely.
[17:46] <niemeyer> received document: bson.M{"ok":0, "errmsg":"collection already exists"}
[17:46] <niemeyer> How unfortunate.. no error codes whatsoever
[17:47] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: guess you'll just have to string match
[17:47] <niemeyer> Yeah, sucks
[17:47] <niemeyer> Will file a bug upstream
[18:13] <niemeyer> Lovely missed pre-reqs..
[19:29] <niemeyer> Alright, mstate/presence is polished
[19:29] <niemeyer> I'm done on the coding side for the moment, I think
[19:30] <niemeyer> I need to visit a friend at the hospital now.. back later
[19:36] <mramm> niemeyer: I hope your hospital trip goes well.   Good luck.
[19:36] <mramm> niemeyer: if there is anything I can do to help, let me know.
[19:39] <wrtp> mramm: hiya
[19:40] <mramm> wrtp: hey!
[23:37] <niemeyer> mramm: Thanks, all good there.. his dad was making a delicate heart procedure