| [00:00] <joanie> TheMuso: you still around? | |
| [00:00] <TheMuso> joanie: Yup. | |
| [00:00] <joanie> help me brainstorm because I need to hack(ish) around unity-greeter for flat review | |
| [00:01] <TheMuso> Ok I'll do what I can... | |
| [00:01] <joanie> the problem seems to be related to the lack of window manager and how Orca draws flat review | |
| [00:01] <joanie> When Orca draws the line it's a GtkWindow | |
| [00:01] <TheMuso> Yup, with you so far. | |
| [00:01] <joanie> and Orca just keeps it on top | |
| [00:01] <TheMuso> Ah. | |
| [00:01] <TheMuso> I was wondering how that was done. | |
| [00:01] <joanie> well, for some reason unity-greeter doesn't like this | |
| [00:02] <TheMuso> Right. | |
| [00:02] <joanie> perhaps because it doesn't have a window manager | |
| [00:02] <TheMuso> It doesn't. | |
| [00:02] <joanie> so combine that with the bug I filed earlier | |
| [00:02] <joanie> it gives focus back to whatever | |
| [00:02] <TheMuso> It only does the bare minimum to make sure shutdown/restart dialogs are on top and get focus. | |
| [00:02] <joanie> and events stop | |
| [00:02] <TheMuso> Yup. | |
| [00:02] <joanie> so the "solution" (not exactly, but....) is "don't draw the outline" | |
| [00:03] <joanie> so I need to detect this condition | |
| [00:03] <joanie> in looking at the registry | |
| [00:03] <joanie> when unity-greeter is running there are two accessible applications: | |
| [00:03] <joanie> unity-greeter and Orca | |
| [00:03] <TheMuso> Right. One thing I was trying to do recently was probe the unity-greeter X display to see what properties were set, to see if such a property was set that we could check for. | |
| [00:03] <joanie> a non-hack would be awesme | |
| [00:03] <joanie> awesome too :) | |
| [00:03] <TheMuso> However I was not able to do so from a terminal with xprop etc. | |
| [00:03] <joanie> in the meantime, with 3.4.1 approaching | |
| [00:04] <joanie> when I look at any "normal" environment -- even minimal, there are bunches more than 2 apps counting Orca | |
| [00:04] <TheMuso> Right. | |
| [00:04] <joanie> what other apps might show up in unity-greeter | |
| [00:05] <joanie> I'm thinking if there are not at least three (or insert number here) apps, do flat review but don't draw the rectangle | |
| [00:05] <TheMuso> Only onboard, but thats not likely to be running at the same time as orca. | |
| [00:05] <joanie> because I see no way to ask "what's your window manager?" | |
| [00:05] <joanie> I will google more | |
| [00:06] <joanie> and to be honest, most Orca users cannot see the underline anyway | |
| [00:06] <TheMuso> Ok. | |
| [00:06] <TheMuso> Yup | |
| [00:06] <joanie> so I'm not all that worried if my hack is too extreme | |
| [00:06] <TheMuso> And flat review is not likely to be used in the greeter. | |
| [00:06] <joanie> and fails to draw a line that no one is going to see | |
| [00:07] <joanie> Attila tried it | |
| [00:07] <TheMuso> You're usually only there to log in/ | |
| [00:07] <TheMuso> He would. : | |
| [00:07] <joanie> and promptly discovered his system wouldn't respond | |
| [00:07] <TheMuso> :) | |
| [00:07] <joanie> Attila is my FAVORITE user. | |
| [00:07] <joanie> seriously | |
| [00:07] <TheMuso> I can understand that yeah. | |
| [00:07] <joanie> he's like having an employee | |
| [00:07] <joanie> he tests and tries all sorts of stuff | |
| [00:07] <joanie> and gives crazy amounts of debug output | |
| [00:07] <joanie> and hacks | |
| [00:07] <joanie> and | |
| [00:08] <joanie> ok but back to my brainstorm | |
| [00:08] <joanie> you ok with this as a solution? | |
| [00:08] <TheMuso> Ypu I know what you mean, he is raising a lot of issues on the Ubuntu a11y list. At least he files bugs as well. | |
| [00:08] <TheMuso> Works for me. | |
| [00:08] <TheMuso> Maybe longer term we could add an X property or some such to unity-greeter that you could check for. | |
| [00:08] * joanie nods | |
| [00:09] <joanie> first I'm going to see if I can figure out how Gtk+ sends those hints | |
| [00:09] <TheMuso> Ok. | |
| [00:18] <joanie> oh hi gdk method | |
| [00:18] <joanie> I might not have to hack | |
| [00:18] * joanie tries | |
| [01:41] <joanie> I love introspection bugs :-/ | |
| [01:41] <joanie> anyhoo, TheMuso at least in Fedora, and not counting the introspection bug I'm about to search for and file.... | |
| [01:42] <joanie> I can use Gdk to get the window manager's name | |
| [01:42] <joanie> so that should be fine for the flat review unity-greeter bug | |
| [01:42] <joanie> (in theory) | |
| [01:42] <TheMuso> Ok theories are good. | |
| [01:42] <joanie> yeah ;) | |
| [01:43] <joanie> I guess I should make sure it doesn't blow up in ubuntu | |
| [01:45] <joanie> got 'Metacity'. /me tries in greeter | |
| [02:43] <tallboy_2> AlanBell: Just wanted to let you know for future reference, 12.04 did not work.. still no 3D support for that Intel chip. | |
| [03:16] <joanie> TheMuso: fixed. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=673397 | |
| [03:16] <ubot2> Gnome bug 673397 in general "Using flat review while in Unity Greeter makes Orca stop presenting screen contents." [Normal,Resolved: fixed] | |
| [03:18] <joanie> TheMuso: While testing I noticed that there are some items in the unity-greeter that are apparently not being seen by Orca's flat review. At some point down the road I can look into that. BUT, I would bet cold, hard cash that it ain't an Orca bug. And unlike the thing I just fixed, I cannot hack objects which are not correctly reporting their location or existence into objects which are. ;) | |
| [03:45] <TheMuso> joanie: Yeah there are GTK widgets at the core of unity-greeter, but some work has been done to make them look somewhat different, so I dare say there is something that changes the behavior of what originally is a standard GTK widget. | |
| [12:19] <yaili_> hi all | |
| [12:19] <yaili_> wondering if anyone is available to have a look at something we're working on? | |
| [14:29] <AlanBell> hi yaili_ | |
| [14:29] <AlanBell> whats up? | |
| [14:30] <yaili_> AlanBell: hi! | |
| [14:31] <AlanBell> are you going to UDS? | |
| [14:31] <yaili_> AlanBell: no | |
| [14:31] <AlanBell> :( | |
| [14:34] <yaili_> AlanBell: maybe next time :) | |
| [14:34] <yaili_> AlanBell: do you have a couple of minutes to have a look at a test page? | |
| [14:34] <AlanBell> sure | |
| [14:35] <yaili_> so we're looking into the hover on links on ubuntu.com, and just putting together as many variations we can think of | |
| [14:35] <yaili_> here it is so far http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46219249/links/index.html | |
| [14:35] <yaili_> your thoughts would be very welcome | |
| [14:37] <AlanBell> not sure I like the various underlines vanishing on hover | |
| [14:38] <AlanBell> dotted underline is often used to indicate there is an on-hover tooltip so I wouldn't use that for an actual link | |
| [14:39] <AlanBell> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hattrick/ | |
| [14:44] <AlanBell> yaili_: and baconipsum is great :) | |
| [14:44] <yaili_> AlanBell: indeed | |
| [14:45] <yaili_> AlanBell: I like how bold doesn't rely on colour to indicate there's a difference, but not sure it's easy to understand | |
| [14:47] <AlanBell> yeah, they don't look like links to me, plus what if you want to actually use *bold* for something in a run of text with bold links | |
| [14:47] <AlanBell> bold Orange is OK | |
| [14:49] <yaili_> AlanBell: true | |
| [14:49] <yaili_> AlanBell: what if it was underlined and changed colour on hover? | |
| [14:49] <yaili_> AlanBell: do you think the links being simply orange is enough? | |
| [14:54] <AlanBell> I think people would work it out either way | |
| [14:54] <AlanBell> personally I am fine with most of the options, arguably the orange with tinted background is low contrast, but only when you are actually hovering over it | |
| [14:55] <AlanBell> I think orange links is fine, even on a monochrome display you can see the difference between Orange and black pretty easily | |
| [14:56] <yaili_> cool | |
| [14:56] <yaili_> we've had complaints about not having a hover style | |
| [14:57] <AlanBell> yeah, I see it is pretty flat on the live site with no hover style | |
| [15:13] <yaili_> AlanBell: yeah, so we kind of need to fix that | |