2009/08/14/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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=== Raidsong is now known as Raid454
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[01:49] <Pretto> !now
[01:49] <ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about now
[02:03] <hggdh> !future
[02:03] <ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about future
[02:03] <hggdh> !past
[02:03] <ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about past
[02:03] <hggdh> ah, OK, it is Markovian
[08:00] <dholbach> hello everybody
[08:00] <dholbach> do we have gilir, apw and Yulia here?
[08:00] <gilir> hi dholbach :)
[08:01] <dholbach> soren, geser, persia`: want to chair?
[08:01] <persia`> Sure.
[08:01] <dholbach> super :)
[08:01] <persia`> Someone else gets to do minutes :)
[08:01] <persia`> #startmeeting
[08:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 02:01. The chair is persia`.
[08:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[08:02] <persia`> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting
[08:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting
[08:02] <persia`> Welcome to the MOTU Council meeting.
[08:02] <persia`> [TOPIC] MOTU Application for Julien Lavergne (gilir)
[08:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Application for Julien Lavergne (gilir)
[08:03] <persia`> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/gilir/MOTUApplication
[08:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/gilir/MOTUApplication
[08:04] <dholbach> gilir: thanks for turning up and sorry for the meeting that didn't happen the last time
[08:04] <dholbach> (although I was computer-less at the time and probably in the middle of Iceland somewhere... :-))
[08:04] <dholbach> gilir: how are you doing?
[08:05] <gilir> dholbach: fine thanks and you :)
[08:05] <gilir> ?
[08:05] <dholbach> I'm good, just a bit tired - thanks :-)
[08:07] <dholbach> gilir: in your application you mention that you'd like to see more interaction between Ubuntu and Debian and not as much delta - how do you think we can get new developers to help out with that more effectively?
[08:09] <dholbach> is it too hard? is it not understandable enough?
[08:09] <gilir> dholbach: I think new developpers or new contributors don't know enough Debian, like how report bugs
[08:09] <gilir> dholbach: sorry with my answers are a bit long, mpy english is not very good :)
[08:09] <dholbach> don't worry, take your time :)
[08:10] <dholbach> do you think it's documentation that's missing? or do we need better tools? or do we need more stories about collaboration? what do you think should we do? or what are you planning to do? :-)
[08:10] <persia`> gilir, While I largely agree that bringing packages into sync is a good thing, could you give a few examples of changes that might not be suitable to push to Debian?
[08:10] <gilir> and I think sometimes they forget to report an issue fixed on Ubuntu than can benefit to Debian too
[08:12] <gilir> dholbach: yes maybe documentation,, but I'm sure it's mostly a question of habits
[08:13] <gilir> persia`: modifications specific to Ubuntu, like firefox/iceweasel
[08:13] <dholbach> gilir: we're very interested in making it easy to change those habits over time :-)
[08:14] <gilir> persia`: IMO most of the modifications should go to Debian, the inverse is exception :)
[08:15] <dholbach> geser, soren: do you have questions?
[08:15] <persia`> gilir, OK.  I've a hypothetical for you.  Let's say there's a segfault in nautilus, and a patch in Ubuntu to fix it.  Should that go to Debian?  Why or why not?
[08:16] <soren> dholbach: I do not.
[08:16] <gilir> persia`: this should go upstream :)
[08:16] <geser> dholbach: no questions
[08:16] <gilir> persia`: except if it's a patch to fix a segfault due to a packging issue
[08:17] <gilir> but I can't think of real case for this one :)
[08:17] <persia`> gilir, OK.  How can we decide whether a given fix belongs upsteam or in Debian?
[08:19] <gilir> persia`: for patches of the source, should go upstream instead of the changes is specific for Debian or Ubuntu (rename binary, special location of someting on the system)
[08:20] <gilir> but if upstream is not active, or if the patch fix a important stuff, it can go to Debian also
[08:21] <persia`> Well, I think it's often a good idea to send source patches also to Debian, but the answer I was looking for is that some packages (like nautilus) tend to be newer in Ubuntu than Debian, so the patches won't apply and that a rule of thumb to guess if this is the case is a version with -0ubuntuN.
[08:21]  * persia` is done with questions.
[08:21] <gilir> I have patches for gcc in mind, which fix FTBFS, for this example
[08:21] <gilir> gcc/new version of gcc
[08:21] <dholbach> I have no questions left either.
[08:22] <persia`> [VOTE] MOTU Application for Julien Lavergne (gilir)
[08:22] <MootBot> Please vote on:  MOTU Application for Julien Lavergne (gilir).
[08:22] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[08:22] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[08:23] <dholbach> +1 fantastic work!
[08:23] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[08:23] <soren> +1 (mostly based on endorsements)
[08:23] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[08:24] <persia`> +1 : Good endorsements, good range of packages uploaded.  Some very strong technical work in some of the uploads.
[08:24] <MootBot> +1 received from persia`. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[08:24] <geser> +1
[08:24] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[08:25] <persia`> [ENDVOTE]
[08:25] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[08:25] <persia`> gilir, Congratulations!
[08:25] <dholbach> congratulations gilir and welcome to the team!
[08:25] <gilir> thanks all :)
[08:25] <dholbach> apw: are you around? if not, juli__ would be next
[08:26] <persia`> [TOPIC] Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)
[08:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)
[08:26] <persia`> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndyWhitcroft/KernelUploadsApplication
[08:26] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndyWhitcroft/KernelUploadsApplication
[08:26] <soren> I don't think he's here yet. I'll keep an eye out for him.
[08:26] <persia`> apw, How are you this morning?
[08:26] <persia`> OK.  Let's defer this then.
[08:27] <persia`> [TOPIC] Netbeans related packages upload permission for Yulia Novozhilova (Juli)
[08:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Netbeans related packages upload permission for Yulia Novozhilova (Juli)
[08:27] <persia`> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YuliaNovozhilova/PerPackageUploaderApplication
[08:27] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YuliaNovozhilova/PerPackageUploaderApplication
[08:27] <persia`> juli__, How are you today?
[08:28] <juli__> persia`, fine, thanks... a bit nervous though... how are you?
[08:28] <persia`> I'm pretty good.
[08:29] <persia`> juli__, Your package upload list is a lot longer than your request for packages to upload list.  Could you comment on why you selected the specific packages?
[08:29] <juli__> I selected packages which I thing are netbenas specific
[08:30] <juli__> the rest packages are just java libraries that can be useful for everybody... I would be happy to upload them as well but not sure it is ok since I apply for netbeans only
[08:31] <juli__> and anyway, there will be new and new packages in the future:)
[08:31] <juli__> since NetBeans needs a lot of external dependencies
[08:32] <apw> apw here
[08:32] <persia`> apw, We'll get back to you soonish then :)
[08:33] <dholbach> juli__: in your application you mention that the java packaging team is too small - do you have any idea why that is?
[08:34] <juli__> I believe it is small because ubuntu guys like python and another tools, but I'm really sure. I like java and completely don't understand such unfairness:)
[08:34] <dholbach> is it too hard?
[08:35] <juli__> I'm NOT really sure
[08:35] <juli__> java?
[08:35] <juli__> may be it is not easy in the beginning but then it is powerful and really cool
[08:36] <dholbach> do you have any idea how we could attract more people to maintain java packages in Ubuntu?
[08:36] <juli__> dholbach,  I believe java team is going to grow:)
[08:37] <dholbach> I hope so too :-)
[08:37] <dholbach> persia`, geser, soren: questions?
[08:38] <persia`> juli__, Theother thing you indicate you dislike is that MOTU are too busy.  Do you have any suggestions as to how this can be resolved?
[08:38] <juli__> dholbach, hmmm... the best way for me is to make Ubuntu the best, so people will want to package there tools
[08:38] <juli__> persia`, more MOTUs?
[08:39] <soren> dholbach: No, I'm good.
[08:39] <juli__> I mean if there will be MOTU who are generally workink on sponsorship everything will be ok, I believe
[08:40]  * persia` is done.
[08:40] <persia`> dholbach, geser ?
[08:40] <geser> no questions
[08:43] <dholbach> me neither
[08:43] <dholbach> sorry
[08:43] <persia`> [VOTE] Netbeans related packages upload permission for Yulia Novozhilova (Juli)
[08:43] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Netbeans related packages upload permission for Yulia Novozhilova (Juli).
[08:43] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[08:43] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[08:43] <persia`> +1 as might be obvious from my endorsement
[08:43] <MootBot> +1 received from persia`. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[08:43] <dholbach> +1
[08:43] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[08:43] <geser> +1
[08:43] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[08:47] <dholbach> soren?
[08:48]  * persia` imagines a fiercely debated Danish caucus.
=== persia` is now known as persia
[08:50] <persia> soren, Do you need questions reopened?
[08:52]  * dholbach places a call to Denmark
[08:53] <dholbach> soren says he's working on getting back
[08:53]  * soren walks back into the room
[08:53] <soren> GEez, sorry about that.
[08:53] <soren> +1
[08:53] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[08:53] <soren> \o/
[08:53] <persia> [ENDVOTE]
[08:53] <persia> juli__, We'll recommend your application to the Technical Board.  good luck!
[08:54] <dholbach> congratulations juli__ - the TB will be in touch with you soon! :)
[08:54] <soren> One of my three routers/firewalls really doesn't like me this morning.
[08:54] <juli__>  thanks guys!
[08:54] <persia> [TOPIC] Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)
[08:54] <dholbach> apw: excited? :)
[08:54] <apw> here (this time!)
[08:54] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndyWhitcroft/KernelUploadsApplication
[08:54] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndyWhitcroft/KernelUploadsApplication
[08:54] <apw> first apologies for missing you at the start of the meeting, seems xchat wasn't connected to my proxy, doh.  technology who'd use it
[08:55] <apw> yeah i am excited now ...
[08:55] <dholbach> apw: so cjwatson says you're probably the most English person he knows... what could he possibly mean? does it have anything to do with "burning the candle from both sides"?
[08:55]  * dholbach chuckles
[08:55] <apw> heh, probabally more about the amount of tea i drink and my direct way of speaking :)
[08:55] <dholbach> the endorsements were fun to read :)
[08:56] <dholbach> so nothing we should aim to fix? :-)
[08:56] <apw> a ton of things we should aim to fix for sure
[08:56] <apw> for the kernel i think our biggest issue is the community, the disparity in the size thereof
[08:56] <persia> apw, You win a prize: that has to be the most open bugs against an uploaded package I've seen for an applicant.  But you get a pass because it's the kernel.
[08:56] <apw> and the ammount of change we have to spoon into each and every release
[08:57]  * apw hides under a rock and hums 'i am a spider'
[08:57] <apw> yeah we need to grow the community badly to help us, and we have been trying through our bug days
[08:57] <apw> longer term i hope to be in a position to mentor some of those people into kernel maint.
[08:57] <dholbach> apw: do you have any ideas about the ubuntu kernel community? how is the kernel community patch review coming on?
[08:58] <apw> the communiuty is starting to help out, we have a couple of regular community contributers to our bug days
[08:58] <apw> and we are starting to get the first pull requests from like the ports maintainers, and even audio
[08:59] <apw> so i think we are getting part of the message across
[08:59] <dholbach> I found that to be one of the biggest blockers in the "ubuntu minus the kernel" developer community, that stuff needs to get reviewed quickly and regularly
[08:59] <apw> 'the kernel is a big package, but still a package'
[08:59] <dholbach> is that an issue in the kernel world? like some kind of patch hand-holding?
[08:59] <apw> one needs to be responsive when people find and offer patches true, but more of an issue is the quality of patches, or preveance
[09:00] <apw> upstreams tend to produce a lot of deubg patches which work for platform A
[09:00] <apw> but knowlingly break everything else, so the patch works for the tester and proposer
[09:00] <apw> but is not acceptable in that form, so we seem a bit 'noo thats no good' if we are not careful
[09:01] <apw> but those pointers are still invaluable, and we need to be better at hoovering them up
[09:01] <dholbach> alright... that makes sense
[09:01] <apw> that is one place where better mentoring of those helping triage can help us
[09:01] <dholbach> apw: what did you personally find most challenging in the ubuntu kernel world in the beginning?
[09:02] <apw> the shear compelxity of the packaging.  being full time dedicated to the team
[09:02] <apw> meant i had a lot of access to mentoring, but even with documentation
[09:02] <apw> the packaging is mind mangling, and you cannot see why its so compelxz
[09:02] <apw> obviously its all there for something and you find out soon enought, but 'dammit how to i even test build this thing'
[09:03] <apw> the communiuty then was much more closed too
[09:03] <apw> we have worked a lot since the team is much larger to make it more open
[09:03] <apw> as you can be closed in a small team and still function but we are now beyond that working
[09:03] <apw> which is a good thing overall as we have better docs now, and a necessarily more enterable group/community
[09:04] <apw> closed == dead in my view
[09:04] <dholbach> maybe we need some kind of "Ubuntu Open Kernel Day" or something :-)
[09:04] <dholbach> like open week
[09:04] <persia> apw, You mention that you'd like a more robust method to carry several parallel kernels.  Do you have any ideas about how that might be implemented?
[09:04] <dholbach> there's probably a lot (although there's more docs now) that people don't know yet
[09:04] <apw> yeah not a bad though
[09:05] <apw> the simple idea of having N kernels is not hugly difficult to achieve i recon we can use more of the version for the modules etc
[09:05] <apw> the issue is the relationsips with abi consumers such as the proprietry graphics drivers
[09:05] <apw> i think our first focus is moveing those all to a more reactive model, more dkms'y style updates
[09:06] <apw> then we can change the kernel install to keep them 'all' or the last '5' or similar
[09:06] <apw> we need a solution which is DKMS like but where we can pre-build them at kernel release time
[09:06] <persia> Doesn't that have a significant performance impact on slower hardware?
[09:06] <persia> Ah, that addresses that :)
[09:06] <apw> to handle the netbooks though, as they are tooooo slow or small to have compilers
[09:07] <apw> obviously someone versed in dark arts would have to bless such a thing
[09:07] <apw> (legal)
[09:07] <dholbach> I have no more questions.
[09:07] <persia> Have you investigated Provides, as is used for X drivers?
[09:08] <apw> no that i haven't
[09:08] <persia> Could you share your opinion of the hardest part of packaging to work with, as applied to kernel packages?
[09:09] <apw> udeb and the abi
[09:09] <apw> the abi because it is always biting one when making test kernels when you least expect it
[09:09] <apw> caused by its necessary dependance on having package output in the package source
[09:10] <apw> and udebs, cause they are handled by kernel-wedge which makes the rest of the package looks simple
[09:10] <apw> and the consumers of each are different subsystems, often not noticing an error there when the next live cd tests are done
[09:11] <apw> the support for those in the rules are just nasty, copying trees about umpteen times to get clean packages
[09:11] <apw> and often fragile to boot
[09:12]  * persia is done with questions.
[09:12] <persia> soren, geser ?
[09:12]  * soren didn't even have any questions to begin with
[09:12] <soren> :)
[09:13] <geser> no questions
[09:13] <soren> ..and still don't. Let's vote.
[09:13] <persia> soren, While you never have questions, I insist on your right to qustions :)
[09:13] <persia> [VOTE] Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)
[09:13] <MootBot> persia, Only the meeting chair can do that
[09:13] <soren> persia: Apppreciated :)
[09:13] <persia> Um.
[09:13]  * persia grumbles
[09:13] <soren> He :)
=== persia is now known as persia`
[09:13] <persia`> [VOTE] Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)
[09:13] <MootBot> persia`, Either there isn't a meeting in progress, or there is already an active vote.
[09:14] <dholbach> haha
[09:14]  * apw laughs at technology
[09:14] <dholbach> persia`: can you end the meeting?
[09:14] <persia`> Right.  I don't care about MootBot.  Please vote.
[09:14] <geser> persia` confused MootBot now totally
[09:14] <soren> +1
[09:14] <soren> Oh!
[09:15] <soren> Di you end the last vote?
[09:15] <persia`> [ENDVOTE]
[09:15] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[09:15] <soren> Mootbot just told me in /query that I already voted :)
[09:15] <persia`> [VOTE] Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)
[09:15] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw).
[09:15] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[09:15] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[09:15] <dholbach> +1
[09:15] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[09:15] <soren> \o/
[09:15] <soren> +1
[09:15] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[09:15] <persia`> I thought I had, but apparently not.
[09:15] <geser> +1
[09:15] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[09:15] <persia`> +1 from me : previous kernels seem to have not caused more annoyance than usual.
[09:15] <MootBot> +1 received from persia`. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[09:15] <persia`> [ENDVOTE]
[09:15] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[09:16] <geser> persia`: you had but as persia and not persia` so MootBot ignored you
[09:16] <persia`> apw, We'll recommend to the Technical Board that you be granted the requested upload permissions.  Good luck!
[09:16] <apw> thanks guys, and thanks for letting me on the menu at short notice
[09:16] <soren> persia`: Scrollback reveals that you did send the command, but MootBot seemed to ignore it.
[09:16] <dholbach> congratulations!
[09:16] <persia`> geser, Ah.  That makes sense.
[09:16] <apw> \o/
[09:16] <persia`> OK.  Anyone else have anything they really, really, really want discussed at this meeting?
[09:17]  * dholbach doesn't
[09:17]  * soren neither
[09:17] <geser> do we plan to have an impromptu meeting for cody today?
[09:17] <dholbach> yes
[09:17] <persia`> What time?
[09:17] <dholbach> he said he'd be about at ~13 UTC
[09:18] <persia`> [TOPIC] special session to review Cody Sommerville's application
[09:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  special session to review Cody Sommerville's application
[09:18] <persia`> [AGREED] A special meeting will be held at 13:00 UTC today.
[09:18] <MootBot> AGREED received:  A special meeting will be held at 13:00 UTC today.
[09:18] <persia`> Anything else?
[09:19]  * dholbach needs to head out and walk the dog
[09:19] <persia`> Well then.  To facilitate that:
[09:19] <persia`> #endmeeting
[09:19] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 03:19.
[09:19] <soren> \o/
=== persia` is now known as persia
[09:19] <dholbach> the dog will appreciate it :)
[09:19] <persia> Much better :)
[09:19] <dholbach> see you later
[09:20] <persia> Oh, who is processing these?
[09:20] <dholbach> I can do it once I get back
[09:20] <persia> Thanks.
[09:20] <dholbach> see you
[09:29] <czajkowski> persia: morning
=== ejat is now known as e-jat
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
[10:27] <huats> gilir: congrats
[10:27] <huats> !
=== [1]superbenny is now known as superbenny
=== imlad|away is now known as imlad
=== fader|away is now known as fader
=== ScottK2 is now known as ScottK
=== The_Toxic_Mite_ is now known as The_Toxic_Mite
[15:59]  * slangasek waves
[15:59] <heno> hey
[15:59] <ttx> o/
[15:59]  * apw fades in ... 
[15:59] <apw> i will be subbing for pgraner for kernel
[16:00]  * fader waves.
[16:00] <Riddell> hi
[16:00]  * ogra strands
[16:01] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[16:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is slangasek.
[16:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:02] <slangasek> we have a number of people off today (lool, pitti, rickspencer3, dendrobates, and it sounds like pgraner too)
[16:02] <slangasek> but I think all the substitutions have been made in advance, so we can go ahead and get started :)
[16:02] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Actions from previous meetings
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Actions from previous meetings
[16:03] <slangasek> cjwatson: I recall that Gustavo was inconveniently on a plane when you went to talk to him about foundations-karmic-upgrade-support-in-landscape; has there been any follow-up since then?
[16:03] <cjwatson> slangasek: yeah, I just did
[16:03] <cjwatson> he said "We were not yet able to test it, but we do have it in our queue.  I'll bring this up here in the sprint to try to schedule it properly already."
[16:04] <slangasek> ok
[16:05] <slangasek> I guess we'll leave that as an open item for next week, then
[16:05] <slangasek> other action items were:
[16:05] <slangasek>   * slangasek to look at 408901
[16:05] <slangasek> done, in time for alpha-4
[16:05] <slangasek>   * slangasek to follow up with ScottK off-line
[16:05] <slangasek> also done
[16:05] <slangasek>   * slangasek, cjwaston, doko to discuss robust-python-packaging further
[16:05] <cjwatson> I don't think we did
[16:05] <slangasek> still needs doing
[16:06] <cjwatson> I'm in the middle of converting lsb-release to python-central include-links, pursuant to that
[16:06] <ScottK> Actually I'm here
[16:06] <slangasek> ScottK: I was quoting from last week's agenda
[16:06] <ScottK> Right.  Noticed this after I replied.
[16:07] <slangasek> cjwatson: is there more we need to discuss, or is the path clear now?
[16:07] <slangasek> seems to me that there's agreement to carry this forward by converting the critical packages that need it
[16:08] <cjwatson> I think so. Could you double-check with mvo, since he's the assignee on that spec? He's back next week, but I'm off next week
[16:08] <slangasek> ok
[16:08] <slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to check with mvo next week on foundations-karmic-robust-python-packaging
[16:08] <MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to check with mvo next week on foundations-karmic-robust-python-packaging
[16:08] <slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
[16:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Team
[16:09] <slangasek> heno, fader: diving right in, then - hi
=== nijaba` is now known as nijaba
[16:09] <fader> Automated testing:
[16:09] <fader> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
[16:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
[16:09] <fader> Not much has changed since last week.  We're still seeing nautilus leave a crash log after startup but other than that we're looking pretty good.
[16:09] <fader> mathben, the intern helping us test laptops in the Montreal office, has gotten the syslogs requested for bug 404264
[16:09] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 404264 in linux "karmic installer fails to detect Intel 82567 network card" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/404264
[16:10] <fader> The kernel team has asked us to look at some System76 bugs, so for those we have hardware for, we will be spending some time today going through and reproducing some of those:
[16:10] <fader> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/system76/+bugs
[16:10] <fader> Any questions about the testing?
[16:11] <heno> ok, spec status:
[16:11] <heno> * karmic-qa-increase-apport-adoption - I've nagged the LP team some more and been promised this for their next release. Marjo will follow up next week.
[16:11] <heno> * karmic-qa-metrics-based-testing - Beta available. Keybuk and kirkland now have access to attachments from bootchart and power management testing
[16:11] <heno> * karmic-qa-extended-audio-testing - fader has written some tests but will extend coverage further; on track for alpha 5
[16:11] <heno> General spec status can be seen here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap
[16:13] <heno> that's all from QA - questions?
[16:13] <slangasek> none from me; sounds like we're in good shape
[16:13] <slangasek> heno, fader: thanks
[16:14] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
[16:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team
[16:14] <seb128> hi
[16:14] <slangasek> oh, I forgot to link to the agenda webpage earlier
[16:14] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-08-14
[16:14] <seb128> I'm new to this meeting so not sure about the format
[16:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-08-14
[16:14] <slangasek> there's that
[16:14] <seb128> desktop side we landed GNOME 2.27.90 this week
[16:15] <seb128> https://wiki.canonical.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus for the dx work
[16:15] <seb128> expect low activity next week
[16:15] <seb128> rick will be back but pitti is still on vac
[16:15] <seb128> robert_ancell and I are away too
[16:16] <seb128> dxteam has some changes that didn't land this week coming though
[16:16] <seb128> notably new fusa applet
[16:16] <seb128> asac is around and dholbach will help on sponsoring
[16:16] <seb128> so things should be in shape
[16:16] <slangasek> seb128: reporting any relevant status on the topics in the agenda for your team, including using the opportunity to identify areas where other teams are blocking you; and identifying any potential trouble spots on your side that might cause problems for the release as a whole
[16:16] <seb128> the new fusa is blocked on ted knowledge
[16:17] <seb128> ie he's on vac and didn't communicate required infos
[16:17] <seb128> but that should be solved next week
[16:17] <slangasek> ok
[16:17] <seb128> that should be all from us
[16:17] <seb128> if you don't have question
[16:17] <seb128> and sorry about the gtk uploads
[16:17] <ogra> blocked on ted knowledge ? educate him !
[16:17] <seb128> I wanted to fix client side issues before holidays
[16:18] <slangasek> seb128: a number of the bugs under the Desktop heading on the agenda have been lingering for a while; can you prod people about paying attention to them? (or have pitti do so next week)
[16:19] <slangasek> (e.g., I'd like my printer to work again some time before karmic is released :)
[16:19] <seb128> we still turn low speed next week
[16:19] <seb128> ie pitti is still on vac
[16:19] <slangasek> ok
[16:19] <seb128> we will catch up the week after that
[16:19] <seb128> if you have anything urgent next week ping asac
[16:19] <slangasek> some of these are in the hands of community members, in any case, and haven't seen activity for three weeks or more
[16:19] <seb128> he will try to cover for us
[16:19] <seb128> ok, I will have a look to those today and do some pinged and updates
[16:20] <slangasek> ok, thanks
[16:20] <seb128> pinged -> pinging
[16:20] <ScottK> For desktop bugs, 339313 and 392593 are fix released as of a few hours ago.
[16:21] <slangasek> seb128: I also added one bug to the bottom of that list after the meeting started, bug #403549, which seems to be the one throwing all of fader's desktop hw tests red
[16:21] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 403549 in nautilus "nautilus crashed with SIGSEGV immediately after start up" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403549
[16:21] <slangasek> so if someone has a chance to look at that one, I'm sure QA would appreciate it
[16:21] <slangasek> ScottK: ah, nice!
[16:21] <seb128> I'm not sure if that's not a crash at shutdown
[16:21] <seb128> but I will ping upstream about this one
[16:21] <seb128> crash are shutdown tend to trigger apport on next login
[16:21] <seb128> ie it's annoying but not a real issue
[16:22] <slangasek> seb128: right - but it's a real issue in that the test harness can't tell the difference, so we either need to resolve it or have fader ignore the /var/crash check
[16:22] <fader> If that result is an issue we can disable the test in our automated testing until the upstream issue is fixed; I'm just concerned we might miss other crashes
[16:22] <slangasek> fader: well, traditionally we resolve segfaults on shutdown by turning off apport at release time <cough>
[16:23] <fader> Heh
[16:23] <slangasek> but if we were to ignore /var/crash/_usr_bin_nautilus*, perhaps that would be enough
[16:23] <seb128> we would ignore lot of valid crashes
[16:23] <seb128> we could add a bug pattern
[16:23] <seb128> to stop those to be filed
[16:24] <slangasek> seb128: the hw testing checks for files in /var/crash, it's unrelated to whether bugs actually get filed
[16:24] <seb128> we lack a way to use bug patterns there
[16:25] <fader> slangasek: I'd add to that that the assumption is that I or someone else will see those crashes and file a bug if necessary, so it's (hopefully) not just noise
[16:25] <seb128> ie have a whitelist
[16:25] <seb128> but right if it doesn't get solved I will hack the nautilus hook
[16:25] <slangasek> ok, sounds like we could benefit from more out-of-band discussion of this problem
[16:25] <seb128> to ignore those
[16:26] <seb128> right
[16:26] <slangasek> [ACTION] seb128 and fader to discuss options for working around nautilus crash on shutdown in hw testing lab
[16:26] <MootBot> ACTION received:  seb128 and fader to discuss options for working around nautilus crash on shutdown in hw testing lab
[16:26] <slangasek> anything else for Desktop?
[16:26] <seb128> no
[16:26] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
[16:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile Team
[16:26] <slangasek> seb128: thanks!
[16:26] <seb128> you're welcome
[16:26] <ogra> i'm here on behalf of the mobile team but probably not up to date on all issues
[16:26] <ogra> * UNR: is pretty much on track, no special issues i know
[16:26] <ogra> * freescale-desktop: currently blocked by manoao not being able to produce livefses (bug 412757) lamont is researching options for upgrading/fixing manoao atm
[16:26] <ogra> * freescale-desktop: waiting for kernel renaming to the in jaunty used -imx51 instead of -babbage to keep a consistent naming scheme
[16:26] <ogra> * marvell-desktop: waiting for kernel, supposed to land on monday, NCommander to add image build scripts to build infrastructure after that
[16:26] <ogra> * lool worked on a status overview at http://people.canonical.com/~lool/mobile-status.html
[16:26] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 412757 in linux-fsl-imx51 "imx51 squashfs as built on the armel livefs builder is broken" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/412757
[16:27] <slangasek> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~lool/mobile-status.html
[16:27] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~lool/mobile-status.html
[16:27] <ogra> thats all i can report atm, if there are questions, try to ask me :)
=== ember_ is now known as ember
[16:28] <ogra> we sadly missed A4 for armel due to the builder breakage
[16:28] <slangasek> ogra: perhaps we should talk through the kernel renaming while we're all here, to make sure we're all in agreement about what to expect after the next kernel upload?
[16:28] <ScottK> KDE is now building nicely on armel.
[16:28] <ogra> well, the kernels are supposed to support the full set of the subarch
[16:28] <ScottK> Just a couple of build failures for someone to dig into.
[16:29] <ogra> so naming the flavour after a single board isnt really appropriate
[16:29] <slangasek> apw: are you in the loop on the linux-fsl-imx51 renaming discussion?
[16:29] <apw> i am aware of the issues, not 100% on the details of the resolution
[16:29] <ogra> and i think there was agreement from the kernel team when we discussed it on wed.
[16:30] <ogra> its only about binary names though, nobody in the mobile team cares about the source name i guess
[16:30] <ogra> given that they are separated from the main sourcepackage anyway
[16:30] <slangasek> it's cheaper to double-check the details of that agreement than to have to go through an extra kernel upload cycle if something doesn't match as expected :)
[16:30] <ogra> right, we want to have -imx51 and -dove kernels
[16:31] <apw> so i assume the babbage->imx51 is appropriate and the other
[16:31] <ogra> and the respective metapackages
[16:31] <ogra> afaik -dove is the name of the SoC
[16:31] <apw> ahh ok so -dove ... i will check with tim that the names are getting sorted
[16:31] <apw> and imx51 is the soc for the other right?
[16:31] <ogra> right
[16:31] <slangasek> -dove is going to be from a separate source package, right?
[16:31] <slangasek> (due to patch load)
[16:31] <apw> slangasek, yes that is correct
[16:31] <ogra> as imx51 is
[16:33]  * ogra hopes that this will enable us as well to have images earlier next release, even with old kernels until the patches land
[16:33] <slangasek> so we can expect linux-image-2.6.31-0-imx51 / linux-headers-2.6.31-0-imx51 and linux-image-imx51 / linux-headers-imx51 in the next round?
[16:33] <ogra> thats what i would expect, yes
[16:33] <apw> i will check up on that and get it confirmed
[16:34] <slangasek> ah, currently we have linux-fsl-imx51-headers-2.6.31-0-babbage rather than linux-headers-2.6.31-0-babbage - I think it would be simpler to have it consistent (avoids extra special-casing in the meta packages), but that won't affect anything on the archive side
[16:34] <slangasek> (unlike the image packages, which *need* to be named linux-image-*)
[16:35] <ogra> additionally we also have the old -imx51 packages
[16:35] <ogra> that results in intresting content on the current livefs :)
[16:35] <apw> slangasek, yes we are looking to match your pattern there, the headers part is still ourstanding
[16:35] <ogra> because the -imx51 header packages end up but your have linux-babbage as the kernel
[16:35] <ogra> *end up in the image
[16:36] <ogra> slangasek, even linux-image-2*
[16:36] <ogra> at least thats what livecd-rootfs expects
[16:36] <slangasek> ScottK: is there demand for including KDE armel images in the alphas?  I've certainly been treating that like any other port for alphas, i.e., roll them if everything else is done and otherwise people can use dailies
[16:37] <ScottK> slangasek: We had some interest last cycle, not so much in Karmic, but we've also been broken on armel until roughly today.
[16:37] <slangasek> ogra: I wonder why those old imx51 packages are there, either; seems like that needs to be cleaned up in the linux source package
[16:37] <ogra> well, we will only support two subarches this round
[16:38] <slangasek> otherwise, linux/linux-meta will shortly be FTBFS on armel, generating gratuitous mails to the kernel uploaders
[16:38] <slangasek> ScottK: right
[16:38] <ScottK> I've been thinking it might make more sense to have kubuntu-netbook images on armel now that we've switched to plasma-netbook
[16:38] <ogra> slangasek, yes, definately i only noticed it today during my squashfs debgging
[16:38] <slangasek> ScottK: that sounds like a plan; talk in #ubuntu-release later?
[16:38] <ScottK> It's significantly lighter
[16:38] <ScottK> Sure.
[16:38] <ogra> doe it run properly in framebuffer ?
[16:39] <ogra> note that we dont have any X drivers for any of the arches
[16:39] <ScottK> I don't know.
[16:39] <slangasek> any other questions for Mobile?
[16:39] <ogra> not to talk about GL or composite
[16:40] <slangasek> ogra: if bug #391588 isn't critical for karmic, perhaps someone could tweak its release targeting or severity
[16:40] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 391588 in banshee "banshee fails to run on arm" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/391588
[16:40] <ScottK> ogra: Offline, If there's a way to test how it works in a framebuffer without having actual armel hardware, I'd like to discuss it.
[16:40]  * ogra looks at what it is atm
[16:40] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
[16:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Team
[16:41] <slangasek> ogra: thanks
[16:41] <ogra> :)
[16:41] <slangasek> apw: and hello
[16:41] <apw> hello
[16:42] <apw> Overall kernel team status is summarised here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic including the bugs called out.  The ecryptfs bug has a plan in place and progressing.  The Intel boot issue is looking improved in later 2.6.31 kernels so we have hope of isolating the change.
[16:42] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[16:42] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[16:42] <apw> All items which impact the distro release schedule seem to be on track at this time.  A fair proportion of the blueprints are now put to bed.  ARM development has been pulled out onto separate enablement branches to decouple the main distro architectures from ARM churn.  ARM itself is now back on track.  Apparmour is still carrying a couple of issues relating to looped back filesystems such as ecryptfs and aufs, there is a plan in place for that,
[16:42] <apw>  generally security is happy with the feature set for release.  The mainline kernel is progressing on schedule so we do not anticipate any issues getting v2.6.31 in the can in time for our release.
[16:44] <slangasek> apw: any ETA on the ecryptfs issue, by chance?
[16:44] <apw> i don't know off the top of my head, but can find out.  i think the work around is at the easy end
[16:44] <slangasek> ok
[16:44] <apw> and the proper fix is pretty hard so going to be a while
[16:44] <ttx> apw: About bug 410198, it's blocking important features for Eucalyptus, so it might make sense to target it for the next milestone ?
[16:44] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 410198 in linux "'modprobe aoe' on Karmic kernel oopses with AOE device from Jaunty" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/410198
[16:45] <apw> alpha-4 i done, so A-5
[16:45] <ttx> sure.
[16:46] <slangasek> apw: thanks, no other questions here (having spent half the mobile slot talking about kernel :)
[16:46] <apw> ttx, thanks for the heads up.  that driver looks a bit broken to my eye ... will get it reported upstream etc
[16:46] <slangasek> any other questions for the kernel team?
[16:47] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
[16:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team
[16:47] <slangasek> apw: thanks
[16:47] <ttx> o/
[16:47] <ttx> I updated Server release status at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
[16:47] <ttx> The likewise-open5 targeted bug we had was fixed for alpha4
[16:47] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
[16:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
[16:48] <ttx> We expect to land Eucalyptus 1.6 early next week... that should allow finalization of a lot of specs
[16:48] <slangasek> does that mean all the MIRs for eucalyptus are also done by next week?
[16:48] <slangasek> or is that landing in universe only?
[16:48] <ttx> slangasek: in universe. MIR effort is in progress
[16:48] <slangasek> any ETA for having the MIRs all done
[16:48] <slangasek> ?
[16:49] <ttx> slangasek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EucalyptusInMainSpec/Packages tracks that effort
[16:49] <slangasek> (are they all filed?)
[16:49] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EucalyptusInMainSpec/Packages
[16:49] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EucalyptusInMainSpec/Packages
[16:49] <ttx> slangasek: 43 of them are ready for review yes
[16:49] <slangasek> ok
[16:49] <ttx> over a total of 60
[16:50] <ttx> rather than filing individual MIRs, we decided to track exceptions to the regular simple no-brainers
[16:50] <cjwatson> ttx: FWIW http://paste.ubuntu.com/253220/ is the current eucalyptus installer patch I have; still a WIP
[16:50] <cjwatson> oops, sorry, meant that to be a /msg but I don't suppose it matters
[16:50] <ttx> cjwatson: ideally we would find a way to test it without all MIR finalized
[16:51] <cjwatson> that's easy
[16:51] <ttx> so that landing is without surprise
[16:51] <cjwatson> the installer can install stuff from universe
[16:51] <ttx> ah :)
[16:51] <cjwatson> but I'm off all next week so it may be tricky
=== imlad is now known as imlad|away
[16:51] <ttx> cjwatson: heh
[16:52] <ttx> sounds like something we would land the next week anyway
[16:52] <ttx> any other questions ?
[16:52] <slangasek> mdz had to step out, but asked me to do a status check on EUC/EC2 publishing changes for alpha-4 that he's requested by email
[16:52] <mdz> (I'm here for the next 7 minutes)
[16:52] <slangasek> oh
[16:52] <slangasek> :)
[16:52] <slangasek> 08:10 <mdz> testing/karmic/alpha4 tweak (slangasek)
[16:52] <slangasek> 08:10 <mdz> AWS page (smoser)
[16:52] <slangasek> 08:10 <mdz> HEADER.html (smoser, update in #server)
[16:52] <slangasek> 08:11 <mdz> UEC setup doc (soren)
[16:53] <slangasek> mine I just saw in email before the meeting; I'll follow up shortly after we're done here
[16:53] <mdz> HEADER.html looks good now, smoser made a few further tweaks to pretty it up
[16:53] <slangasek> I saw smoser had a draft HEADER.html which looked good, right, guess that's live now
[16:53] <mdz> I don't know the status of the AWS page, and I believe smoser had to step out
[16:53] <mdz> soren: can you speak to the UEC/Eucalyptus setup doc?
[16:54] <ttx> mdz: soren is out as well.
[16:54] <mdz> ttx: could you follow up with them on these items for me?
[16:54] <mdz> ttx: I'll forward you a copy of the email thread if you like
[16:54] <ttx> mdz: i will. Please forward the thread my way.
[16:54] <slangasek> [ACTION] ttx to follow up with soren, smoser regarding AWS page and UEC setup doc for mdz
[16:54] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to follow up with soren, smoser regarding AWS page and UEC setup doc for mdz
[16:55] <slangasek> anything else for the server team?
[16:55] <mdz> ttx: thanks
[16:55] <ScottK> slangasek: It'd be good to get clamav copied to jaunty-updates
[16:55] <ScottK> I'm waiting that for updating the backports.
[16:56] <ScottK> (dapper/hardy/intrepid)
[16:56] <slangasek> ScottK: I've got a bit of SRU processing to catch up on, covering for pitti while he's out; I'll have a look this afternoon
[16:56] <ScottK> Thanks
[16:56] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
[16:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
[16:56] <slangasek> ttx: thanks
[16:56]  * ttx disappears
[16:57] <slangasek> cjwatson: hi
[16:57] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[16:58] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[16:58] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[16:58] <cjwatson> we have a slight increase in our high-priority bug pile, but I think they're mostly under control
[16:58] <cjwatson> mostly we have spec fever
[16:58] <cjwatson> cloud setup is running late but (now) under control we think
[16:58] <cjwatson> zsync is late and may end up in a PPA
[16:58] <cjwatson> (given that it has LP requirements anyway)
[16:59] <cjwatson> a few things are waiting for mvo to get back from paternity leave before we know whether they need to be deferred or not
[16:59] <cjwatson> (though those are medium-priority)
[17:00] <cjwatson> and the python packaging stuff we already discussed above
[17:00] <cjwatson> slangasek: how late can multiarch feasibly be pushed without risking quality problems?
[17:02] <slangasek> cjwatson: IMHO we can go at least as late as alpha5 (a week past feature freeze) for the package manager bits without problems; much later than that and I would have to start worrying
[17:02] <cjwatson> mm, our release status page currently has it at alpha6
[17:02] <cjwatson> feel free to edit :-)
[17:03] <slangasek> yeah, will do
[17:03] <robbiew> well it would be delivered in alpha 6
[17:03] <robbiew> if it's a week past alpha 5
[17:03] <slangasek> robbiew: a week past feature freeze == alpha 5; probably not past alpha 5
[17:03] <slangasek> (I'm revising my earlier opinion based on the rate of dpkg development, here)
[17:03] <robbiew> ah, right
[17:05] <slangasek> status looks good to me, otherwise (and about as I expected :)
[17:05] <slangasek> anything else for Foundations?
[17:06] <slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
[17:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
[17:06] <slangasek> cjwatson, robbiew: thanks
[17:06] <slangasek> ScottK: I see from the mailing list that there's been motu-release activity
[17:07] <ScottK> yes.
[17:07] <ScottK> We now have a full team and are getting organized
[17:07]  * slangasek nods
[17:07] <ScottK> No progress on the listed bugs.
[17:08] <ScottK> AFAIK our ocaml and ghc6 transitions are moving along.
[17:08] <slangasek> actually, 399013 seems to be fixed now, I failed to check that status before the meeting
[17:08] <slangasek> so that's good. :)
[17:08] <ScottK> Nothing else to report I don't think
[17:08] <slangasek> any areas that you think we should be throwing more manpower at?
[17:09] <slangasek> I've been hitting the NBS list hard this week, there's still a lot to churn through
[17:09] <ScottK> I need to think about that.
[17:09] <ScottK> Yes.
[17:09] <ScottK> I did a little bit of followup with some people on it.
[17:09] <ScottK> boost is done as soon as you punt 1.35 out of the archive.
[17:09] <slangasek> archive uninstallables / FTBFS probably need some attention after that
[17:09] <ScottK> Yes.
[17:09] <slangasek> excellent \o/
[17:10] <ScottK> There are two rdepends left but they are broken for other reasons so lacking boost1.35 doesn't make them worse.
[17:10] <slangasek> ok
[17:10] <ScottK> I kicked off a huge stack of armel rebuilds yesterday and they are mostly working.
[17:10] <ScottK> So that'll help some.
[17:10] <ScottK> I'd need to think about where to focus more manpower.
[17:11] <ScottK> Ruby seems somewhat broken.
[17:11] <slangasek> howso?
[17:11] <ScottK> rails FTBFS and I didn't have a chance to look into it yet
[17:12] <ScottK> I need to run, so I'll try to get back to you after I've looked things over a bit.
[17:12] <slangasek> ok, thanks for the update
[17:13] <slangasek> [TOPIC] ISO size
[17:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  ISO size
[17:13] <slangasek> I poked a couple of comments into the agenda about this, which probably speak for themselves
[17:13] <slangasek> we had to drop some more langpacks from the CDs to make everything fit for alpha-4, so that's not happy
[17:14] <slangasek> and part of this was because gnome-bluetooth landed, for a size of around 400K (incl. dependencies) rather than the ~120K we had for bluez-gnome
[17:14] <slangasek> as part of this, we now have two separate obex servers on the CD because different things depend on different implementations :(
[17:14] <slangasek> so there's some duplication cleanup to be done there, definitely
[17:15] <slangasek> anyone else know of things we should be targeting to get off the CDs?
[17:16] <slangasek> <crickets>
[17:16] <slangasek> ok, something to think about as we go, as usual :)
[17:16] <slangasek> [AOB]
[17:16] <slangasek> anything else before we break?
[17:17] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[17:17] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:17.
[17:17] <slangasek> thanks, all
[17:17] <apw> thanks slangasek
[17:17] <heno> thanks
=== fader is now known as fader|lunch
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=== fader is now known as fader|away