2008/11/05/#edubuntu.txt

[04:00] <kwak> hi anyone awake. im using hardy and some of my clients are not receiving DHCP response from the server.
[04:00] <kwak> i have 25 client, so far i have 7 thin clients which booted
[12:39] <neil_d> With LTSP and local apps. is there any operation difference between local and remote apps?   Do both display on the same screen ?
[13:02] <stgraber> neil_d: yes they do, though localapps may require some tweaking (especially the ones relying on dbus/gconf)
[13:10] <neil_d> stgraber: ok, is there a step by step guide on how to setup local apps.  especially firefox ?
[13:10] <neil_d> stgraber: I haven't found one yet.
[13:24] <stgraber> neil_d: not really, localapps are pretty new and not yet really well integrated
[13:25] <stgraber> neil_d: you'll need firefox (without ubufox) installed in the chroot and a launcher on the application server to trigger it
[13:25] <stgraber> (sorry, can't help much, I'm in a meeting :))
[13:25] <neil_d> stgraber: ok thanks for the info.
[17:22] <LaserJock> hi all
[17:22] <stgraber> hi LaserJock
[17:23] <highvoltage> hi
[17:23] <LaserJock> you guys read over the agenda yet?
[17:23] <stgraber> sort of, I'm following the QA meeting at the same time :)
[17:24] <stgraber> oh, and having lunch too
[17:24] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ah, is it in here?
[17:24] <LaserJock> lol
[17:24] <LaserJock> highvoltage: the meeting? no, it's supposed to be in #ubuntu-meeting in 36 min
[17:24] <highvoltage> ah
[17:24] <LaserJock> just wanted to get the creative juices flowing
[17:27] <highvoltage> just looking over the agenda now trying to do the same thing
[17:58] <LaserJock> ok, Edubuntu meeting in 2 minutes
[18:02] <LaserJock> Edubuntu meeting is right now in #ubuntu-meeting
[18:49] <juliux> ogra: do you know somebody else? http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/LocoTeam/UbuntuMember
[18:50] <ogra> not on first look
[18:50] <ogra> i'll ping you if someone strikes me
[19:28] <juliux> ogra: thxs
[19:51] <highvoltage> and thanks to LaserJock for organising that much needed meeting
[19:51] <Lns> Yes, thank you LaserJock
[19:52] <nubae> yups
[19:53] <LaserJock> no problem
[19:53] <LaserJock> I'm just glad some people showed up
[19:54] <Lns> Is there anyone here interested in creating a YouTube campaign for Edubuntu and/or LTSP for demonstration purposes?
[19:54]  * nubae nominates Lns
[19:54] <highvoltage> LaserJock: when you've got a draft together of the plan (I'll do my best to help there), then we should blog the next meeting so that it gets some more exposure
[19:54] <Lns> lol thx nubae
[19:55] <highvoltage> Lns: I'd like doing some technical ones. Like how to set up LTSP, etc.
[19:55] <LaserJock> I think we have a wiki spot for those, one sec
[19:55] <highvoltage> it could also be a directory on http://video.ubuntu.com
[19:55] <Lns> oh wow
[19:56] <Lns> I never knew of that link
[19:56] <nubae> what would be a good edu video is using sabayon and pessulus to make profiles
[19:56] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuVideoIntroduction is something to look at
[19:56] <highvoltage> Lns: there's also a youtube channel that contains all those videos (and more) relating to ubuntu
[19:56] <Lns> nubae: are those tools stable yet?
[19:56] <nubae> the documentation on it is very very minimal
[19:56] <nubae> no, but its ok to create the profiles with
[19:56] <LaserJock> sabayon and pessulus have been around for quite a while
[19:56] <nubae> its not running after the profiles are made
[19:57] <Lns> I don't think we should be spending time (yet) on something that's not stable enough to use on a day to day basis
[19:57] <LaserJock> but sabayon at least has suffered from Red Hat pulling it's people off
[19:57] <Lns> at least as far as demo videos
[19:57] <LaserJock> so it lacks developers
[19:57] <nubae> its necessary though, and it has no documentation
[19:57] <Lns> highvoltage: what's the yt channel url?
[19:57] <nubae> its such a powerful tool
[19:58] <Lns> nubae: I agree.. but for now I think we should focus from the ground up, get some videos demoing LTSP/Edubuntu in general, a very broad overview of benefits and use cases
[19:58] <LaserJock> I think sabayon/pessulus could be huge in Education
[19:58] <Lns> and get more specific from there
[19:59] <LaserJock> but they have to be rock solid to do it
[19:59] <LaserJock> and it's tricky business, some of the stuff seems pretty hackish
[19:59] <Lns> I agree... it needs more work
[19:59] <Lns> I've never been able to use it reliably
[19:59] <LaserJock> *but* if we can funnel interested parties their way and help then thats a win for everybody
[20:00] <highvoltage> Lns: http://www.youtube.com/ubuntudevelopers
[20:00] <highvoltage> Lns: please excuse the colour scheme :)
[20:00] <Lns> highvoltage: ah, yes i'm subbed to that chan
[20:00] <Lns> I think Edubuntu and/or LTSP should get its own YT channel though
[20:00] <Lns> and maybe link to the others through friends/subscribers
[20:00] <Lns> get a whole "network" of Ubuntu related YT channels
[20:01] <highvoltage> Lns: are you on IRC often? I'd love to discuss this, but I'm having trouble keeping my eyes open
[20:01] <Lns> highvoltage: yep...almost always on #edubuntu, #ltsp
[20:01] <Lns> during the day anyway, PST
[20:01] <Lns> (it's noon here now)
[20:02] <highvoltage> cool. don't let me stop you though, I'm just going to get some sleep now
[20:02] <Lns> highvoltage: np. Have a good rest!
[20:02] <highvoltage> cool. goodnight Lns
[20:02] <Lns> night
[20:03] <LaserJock> one thing I wanted to kind of bring up in the meeting but didn't is the age scope of Edubuntu
[20:03] <LaserJock> the Edubuntu motto is "Linux for Young Human Beings"
[20:04] <LaserJock> but I've always pushed for getting into secondary/uni education
[20:04] <nubae> yeah
[20:04] <nubae> in fact... its more sugar that is for young human beings
[20:04] <Lns> LaserJock: So what's the current view on it?
[20:04] <nubae> and it will with time totally take over that niche
[20:05] <LaserJock> Lns: currently we mostly have stuff for younger people
[20:05]  * Lns thinks the term "Edubuntu" is best geared toward children ages 1-12 yrs
[20:05] <nubae> should be Educational Linux for human beings
[20:05] <nubae> Lns: u mean the themes
[20:06] <Lns> nubae: themes and a lot of apps too such as gcompris
[20:06] <nubae> yeah true, lots of the apps are for kids
[20:06] <LaserJock> currently though, I think we ship most of the decent apps for kids
[20:06] <Lns> yes
[20:06] <LaserJock> but for instance, there are lots of secondary/uni apps we could ship
[20:07] <nubae> yep
[20:07] <nubae> some of it is... like the math stuff
[20:07] <nubae> language stuff
[20:07] <nubae> thats no longer for kids
[20:07] <LaserJock> right
[20:07] <Lns> Maybe the thing is, we need to really grind in, especially after the past couple years of confusion between Edubuntu, LTSP, etc.. is that Edubuntu is for a subset of children aged N to O
=== ogra_ is now known as ogra
[20:07] <LaserJock> I'm a Chemist and a university educator
[20:07] <LaserJock> so I gravitate that way
[20:08] <nubae> so how about we make a matrix on the site
[20:08] <nubae> describe the software and what age groups its for
[20:08] <Lns> nubae: good idea
[20:08] <LaserJock> at one point I wanted to tie it all together
[20:08] <LaserJock> so you installed some metapackage
[20:08] <nubae> and links to the youtube videos ;-)
[20:08] <Lns> What about splitting packages for certain agegroups/use cases?
[20:08] <LaserJock> that installed age-appropriate packages *and* themes *and* menues
[20:09] <Lns> LaserJock: I think that's a great idea
[20:09] <LaserJock> it's a lot of overhead in terms of maintenance
[20:09] <nubae> yeah, edubuntu for me needs to be something easily grabable for the use case scenario I want
[20:10] <Lns> apt-get install edubuntu-ages-1to12
[20:10] <nubae> right now doing apt-get install edubuntu-desktop is just not feasable for a whole school scenario
[20:10] <nubae> Lns: right
[20:10] <Lns> If we do that, I think a lot more devs will come into play for certain use cases
[20:10] <LaserJock> we, at one point, had groupings like young, elementary, secondary, university
[20:10] <Lns> they know what they want to work on
[20:10] <nubae> LaserJock: Im sure we lose users because they find the packages inappropriate for all levels
[20:11] <nubae> LaserJock: perfect, can we use that split again?
[20:11] <LaserJock> we never really accomplished it
[20:11] <nubae> maybe with elementary, middle, secondary and university
[20:11] <LaserJock> I mean, we've had different themes in the past
[20:11] <nubae> young is elementary
[20:12] <LaserJock> well, there is pre-school stuff
[20:12] <ogra> right it was only themes
[20:12] <Lns> nubae: well think about after-school clubhouse type setups, too. I work for a couple different Boys & Girls Clubs in California
[20:12] <ogra> i think the preseed option is stil in edubuntu-artwork
[20:12] <ogra> dpkg-reconfigure -pcritical edubuntu-artwork
[20:12] <nubae> the artwork is attractive to people
[20:13] <Lns> I think age groups might be the best way to categorize it, not "1st grade" "University" etc
[20:13] <LaserJock> well, on thing we have to consider is that different parts of the world have different terminology
[20:13] <Lns> exactly
[20:13] <LaserJock> generally elementary, secondary, university sort of work
[20:13] <LaserJock> but we can change the name to be whatever
[20:13] <nubae> yeah but uni, secondary, primary are pretty universal
[20:14] <nubae> at least those 3 groupings would already help a great deal
[20:14] <LaserJock> yeah, primary instead of elementary
[20:14] <LaserJock> *but* as I keep harping on, we gotta have people to maintain this stuff
[20:14] <LaserJock> we can easily get a real mess on our hands
[20:15] <Lns> I'm not familiar with package management at all (yet).. i might not be a good candidate for that
[20:15] <LaserJock> Lns: you can learn ;-)
[20:15] <Lns> although I can definitely give my opinion on it :)
[20:15] <nubae> yeah I'm working on MOTU
[20:15] <nubae> but damn thats a beast and a half
[20:15] <Lns> I can, but i might be better at youtube collaboration / exposure
[20:15] <nubae> I cant wrap my head around it yet
[20:15] <ogra> its trivial once you are over the hump
[20:16] <alkisg> I don't think bandwidth is a problem for most teachers, but menu editing (for all users) is. So if there was an easy way to modify the Education menu based on a user group (e.g. class A/B/C), or at least have 3 menus instead of the Education menu (again, Educational apps for class A/B/C) it would be easier for the students. So I propose no different packages, just menu editing.
[20:16] <nubae> ogra: where is the hump?
[20:16] <nubae> :-)
[20:16] <ogra> ahaead apparently :)
[20:16] <Lns> alkisg: did you look at edubuntu-menus ?
[20:16] <alkisg> Lns, no  :)
[20:16] <Lns> alkisg: apt-cache show edubuntu-menus
[20:16] <Lns> it's not completely together yet but that's the start of what you're talking about
[20:17] <nubae> alkisg: yeah thats important for my use cases too
[20:17] <ogra> alkisg, bandwith is a huge prob in moust countres where edubuntu gets used
[20:17] <alkisg> ogra, one can download a DVD and make many copies for other teachers
[20:17] <ogra> edubuntu has many users in south america, africa asia
[20:17] <nubae> as is ease of use... if we had 3 groups that are easily installable, like apt-get edubuntu-primary
[20:17] <nubae> or edubuntu-uni
[20:17] <ogra> alkisg, ever downloaded a DVD over 56k dialup ?
[20:17] <nubae> that would be soooo easy and nice
[20:18] <ogra> alkisg, in a country where you dont devn find DVD readers (not to talk about writers)
[20:18] <ogra> *even
[20:18] <Lns> ogra: heh, what's that debian app for cases like that? Some dpkg app that could resume sessions and build an ISO or something over very unreliable connections
[20:18] <nubae> ogra: right, people forget the ease with which we get internet
[20:18] <ogra> right
[20:18] <nubae> I was in Nepal... we'd be lucky to have 2k per sec
[20:19] <ogra> the existing edubuntu users even rarely have connection
[20:19] <nubae> there was absolutely no way to download a cd
[20:19] <nubae> let alone a dvd
[20:19] <alkisg> ogra, I installed edubuntu in a school with 56k dialup. I never even bothered to update. Every time there was a distro update, I downloaded a DVD from my home and use this in school...
[20:19] <LaserJock> ogra: kinda going off of that, do you have any idea why shipit was dropped for Edubuntu? too much cost and not enough interest?
[20:19] <nubae> alkisg: what makes u think these users have internet at home?
[20:19] <ogra> LaserJock, the latter i think
[20:19] <LaserJock> ogra: k
[20:19] <alkisg> nubae, not the users, the central school administration
[20:20] <nubae> I can tell u that the only internet connection to remote locations is for email only, with no one having internet at home
[20:20] <nubae> ditto
[20:20] <ogra> LaserJock, though i think only after the CD split
[20:20] <nubae> in Nepal, only the main ISP had the bandwidth (1mb share for the entire country) to download stuff in the middle of the night
[20:20] <alkisg> nubae, e.g. in my town we have ~50 schools and a central ...administrator (I don't know how it's called in english)
[20:20] <nubae> its not a usable scenario
[20:20] <alkisg> nubae, shipit.ubuntu.com :)
[20:21] <nubae> right
[20:21] <ogra> alkisg, your country isnt in south america, asia or africa :)
[20:21] <Lns> I think Edubuntu is in a real identity crisis right now with the LTSP split. THUS it's a great time to redefine it on a fundamental level (such as what I think would be good w/different use-case packages/metapackages)
[20:21] <nubae> Lns: LaserJock realised this thus organised the meeting :-)
[20:22] <Lns> nubae: i know i know.. :)
[20:22] <Lns> but we never really came to a solid decision did we ?
[20:22] <nubae> yeah we did
[20:22] <LaserJock> well, we decided we're moving forward
[20:22] <LaserJock> it's difficult to change everything in a single IRC meeting
[20:23] <nubae> no mention of ubuntu in education unless specifically instructed by RichEd or Canonical
[20:23] <nubae> ie, edubuntu is the community and shouldnt be confused with ubuntu in education
[20:23] <Lns> I don't think we *need* to mention it anyway, they're all a part of that marketing anyway
[20:23] <Lns> we need to focus on our specific projects
[20:23] <nubae> with the edubuntu add on cd developed and maintained by the community
[20:23] <nubae> that makes things much easier to understand
[20:24] <nubae> Lns: right
[20:24] <Lns> ok
[20:24] <nubae> so I've offered to help with the edubuntu.org website
[20:24] <nubae> you've offered to do the youtube videos
[20:24] <Lns> Is there room to restructure the add-on cd? What exactly does it consist of, other than the packages (and an installer?) for edubuntu themes/apps ?
[20:25] <nubae> and I guess we should both go for MOTU too, so we can be more involved with the packages that make up the edubuntu cd
[20:25] <LaserJock> not much
[20:25] <LaserJock> Lns: ^^
[20:25] <LaserJock> the CD currently has ~ 500MB out of 700MB total
[20:25] <LaserJock> we have plenty of room for things
[20:25] <Lns> ok...i've never used the addon cd, is there a good installer?
[20:25] <ogra> it still has 500 ?
[20:25] <Lns> clickie clickie? :)
[20:25] <ogra> it should be far less
[20:25] <LaserJock> ogra: let me look
[20:25] <nubae> edubuntu.org
[20:26] <ogra> WINFOSS was dropped last minute
[20:26] <nubae> explanations abound there
[20:26] <Lns> nubae: ko
[20:26] <ogra> that should have freed another 2-300
[20:26] <Lns> ok*
[20:26] <LaserJock> oh geeze yeah
[20:26] <LaserJock> it's like 330MB
[20:26] <ogra> yeah
[20:26] <ogra> add as you like
[20:26] <nubae> wow lots of room to play with
[20:26] <LaserJock> so wow, yeah, lots of room
[20:26] <ogra> thats why i said it should be universe based
[20:27] <nubae> agreed
[20:27] <Lns> I think some demo videos (and other non-software related content) should be put on there
[20:27] <ogra> makes contribution easier as well
[20:27] <LaserJock> ogra: would that kill Canonical's support do you think?
[20:27] <ogra> any motu can help
[20:27] <ogra> LaserJock, RichEd matter
[20:27] <nubae> what support?
[20:27] <ogra> i'm not edu at all anymore, he makes the decisions
[20:27] <LaserJock> yeah, yeah :-)
[20:27] <LaserJock> nubae: Canonical officially provides support for Edubuntu
[20:28] <nubae> how?
[20:28] <ogra> nubae, currently all apps on the addon are officially canonical supported
[20:28] <ogra> you can buy support contracts
[20:28] <nubae> I thought all that moved to ubuntu in education
[20:28] <nubae> for edubuntu specifically?
[20:28] <nubae> or are we talking about ubuntu in education now?
[20:28] <ogra> no, for ubuntu in education
[20:28] <LaserJock> nubae: currently "ubuntu in education" is not a product
[20:28] <ogra> but the set of apps is currently defined by the edubuntu apps
[20:29] <nubae> right, so then again, how does canonical support that?
[20:29] <ogra> s/set of apps/set of supported edu apps/
[20:29] <nubae> the apps themselves are supported?
[20:29] <Lns> nubae: yes
[20:29] <nubae> really=
[20:29] <nubae> ?
[20:29] <ogra> the list on the ubuntu.com page is
[20:29] <LaserJock> for instance, the apps get security support via people Canonical employees
[20:29] <nubae> I would have thought that was totally upstream
[20:29] <ogra> right
[20:29] <nubae> not upstream?
[20:29] <LaserJock> you can by support contracts for it too
[20:30] <nubae> for ubuntu in education I take it
[20:30] <ogra> and perople buying support contracts can get paid help on them
[20:30] <LaserJock> nubae: upstream writes code, we ship the code and make sure it all works
[20:30] <LaserJock> sometimes that means writing patches
[20:30] <ogra> and integrates
[20:31] <nubae> I see how canonical supports the ubuntu in education concept...
[20:31] <nubae> but arent the packages that make up edubuntu available seperately
[20:31] <nubae> so they actually fall under ubuntu support
[20:31] <LaserJock> well, it's all the same pool of packages
[20:32] <nubae> right, so how could they drop support then?
[20:32] <LaserJock> but certain sets of packages get enhanced support by Canonical
[20:32] <nubae> ahh...
[20:32] <nubae> ok
[20:32] <ogra> and the set of apps is atm defined by edubuntu-desktop
[20:32] <LaserJock> that is to say, *somebody* has to fix stuff
[20:32] <LaserJock> Canonical employees people to make sure it gets done for supported packages
[20:32] <ogra> a switch needs to be made so canonical defines the apps
[20:32] <LaserJock> *employs
[20:33] <ogra> and edubuntu cn be free to build from universe
[20:33] <nubae> ok gotcha now
[20:33] <ogra> that switch can only come from riched
[20:33] <LaserJock> ogra: well, with the archive reorg plan wouldn't it work?
[20:33] <ogra> no
[20:33] <ogra> the reorg plan is bound to seeds
[20:33] <LaserJock> that is we'd have our seeds and all we'd need to do is define the set of people who can upload to those seeds
[20:34] <ogra> right
[20:34] <LaserJock> that would lower the bar
[20:34] <ogra> but that still doesnt make rich happy
[20:34] <LaserJock> at least I think it would
[20:34] <ogra> he needs to define the supported set still
[20:34] <LaserJock> sure, but that's his problem, not mine ;-)
[20:35] <nubae> heh, well it affect edubuntu being universe or not
[20:35] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure how long Universe/Main will exist
[20:35] <ogra> well, he needs to also agree on building from universe as long as he depends on edubuntu-desktop
[20:35] <ogra> still for a while i bet
[20:35] <LaserJock> past Jaunty you think?
[20:35] <ogra> probably
[20:35] <ogra> its a big change
[20:35] <LaserJock> ah, then that makes sense
[20:36] <LaserJock> well, I thought we had most of the Launchpad bits
[20:36] <LaserJock> but I guess the CD building would get messed up
[20:36] <LaserJock> in any case, we should start discussing it with RichEd
[20:37] <LaserJock> it would certainly be better for getting new developers if it was Universe
[20:37] <nubae> and more packages too right?
[20:37] <LaserJock> potentially
[20:37] <LaserJock> we wouldn't have to do the dreaded MIRs ;-)
[20:38]  * nubae runs to eat something
[20:42] <ogra> LaserJock, so on another topic, do we see a post election post from you ? (/me found it intresting to see your perspective on politics (even though i dont agree with it but wouldnt even remotely be qualified to judge internals of a foreign country))
[20:42] <LaserJock> ogra: oh man, I don't know
[20:43] <LaserJock> ogra: I'd like to do one, but I'm a bit tired  of  the "you're and idiot and I have  no respect for you" comments
[20:43] <ogra> yeah, i can truely understand
[20:44] <rockstar> ogra, critiquing other people's countries is still quite okay.  :)
[20:44] <rockstar> LaserJock, you might want to turn off comments.  :)
[20:44] <ogra> rockstar, sure
[20:45] <ogra> i would simply find it intresting to see the other side of the medal post election
[20:45] <LaserJock> yeah, it's been interesting to see how seemingly interested and invested people  from other nations have been in our elections
[20:45] <ogra> well, bush has put you in a very bad light over te years
[20:45] <rockstar> Yea, I was in London for the last two and a half weeks.  It was amazing how much coverage there was.
[20:46] <LaserJock> jerome said in the Philippines it was front page news in the local newspapers
[20:46] <LaserJock> seems weird to me
[20:46] <LaserJock> but makes it all that more weighty and serious to me
[20:47] <rockstar> Especially because the US has absolutely no coverage of other countries' elections.
[20:47] <LaserJock> exactly
[20:47] <rockstar> ...unless it's a coup  :)
[20:47] <ogra> heh, yeah
[20:47] <ogra> i think it was looked at all over the world
[20:47] <LaserJock> although I do remember some reporting about Germany, Canada, and Britian
[20:47] <LaserJock> but it wasn't a lot
[20:47] <ogra> i kept up myself until 6am
[20:48] <ogra> but thats surely shows how bad of a reputation your country had thanks to bush in the rest of the world
[20:48] <Lns> The US media is completely egocentric
[20:48] <ogra> yeah
[20:48] <ogra> world ends at the shore :)
[20:48] <Lns> We *never* hear about other countries unless it's something that involves us, or something we can mock them for
[20:48] <Lns> It's absurd
[20:48] <ogra> but you are simply so big
[20:48] <Lns> the world is bigger :)
[20:49] <LaserJock> well, to some degree though I would expect US media to talk primarily about the US
[20:49] <ogra> and i met many many people in your country that had never left ther small village
[20:49] <LaserJock> I just don't expect other nation's media to talk about the US so much
[20:49] <ogra> and are scared to do so
[20:49] <rockstar> Lns, for the most part, other countries are mocking us back.  :)
[20:49] <LaserJock> to some degree I just wish the rest of the world would just ignore us :-)
[20:49] <Lns> rockstar: yeah, but we seem to instigate a lot of it
[20:49] <Lns> seriously
[20:50] <rockstar> ogra, that's a different problem.
[20:50] <rockstar> But those kinds of people are in every country.
[20:50] <ogra> yeah
[20:50] <LaserJock> ogra: after going to Paris i didn't want to leave *my* little village ;-)
[20:50] <ogra> heh
[20:50] <LaserJock> that food, uggg
[20:50] <Lns> I couldn't believe how many people outside the US know Obama/McCain and our election status...and I probably don't even know WHERE their country is on a globe
[20:50] <LaserJock> and getting pick-pocketed, no fun at all
[20:50] <ogra> LaserJock, but you still look over the edge ...
[20:50] <ogra> and dont hide behind the fence
[20:51] <LaserJock> if it wasn't for my good Ubuntu friends I would never leave the US again
[20:51] <rockstar> LaserJock, aren't you in Vegas?
[20:51] <LaserJock> rockstar: Reno
[20:51] <LaserJock> not exactly a village I suppose ...
[20:51] <Lns> Go Reno 911!
[20:51] <rockstar> LaserJock, I watch Reno 911.  I know all about Reno.  :)
[20:51] <LaserJock> lol
[20:51] <LaserJock> I've seen a few episodes
[20:51] <LaserJock> it's really weird
[20:51] <LaserJock> it's like "oh yeah, I know that store"
[20:51] <Lns> hehehe..rockstar, did you ever watch "The State" ?
[20:52] <rockstar> Lns,  nope.
[20:52] <rockstar> I don't watch a lot of TV honestly.
[20:52] <Lns> rockstar: a lot of people from R911 were on The State...a skit comedy show a long time ago
[20:52]  * Lns tries to stay away from the TV as well
[20:52] <rockstar> LaserJock, could you and I find some way that I could watch your process of doing MOTU related stuff?
[20:53] <LaserJock> rockstar: in what way?
[20:53] <LaserJock> like a "ride along"?
[20:53] <rockstar> I don't really like the whole "So you want to be a MOTU, here's a link.  Read it" only to find that I've now started reading one of those choose your own adventure books.
[20:53] <LaserJock> lol
[20:54] <rockstar> It'll be nice when all packages are bzr branches.  I know how to do that.  :)
[20:54] <LaserJock> I've created bzr branches for many of the edu apps
[20:54] <rockstar> In fact, I wrote some of the code that serves bzr from lp
[20:54] <rockstar> LaserJock, which ones?
[20:55] <LaserJock> if people get interested we can start doing more bzr related maintenance, when it's just me I don't find it as useful
[20:55] <LaserJock> rockstar: have a look at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~laserjock
[20:56] <rockstar> LaserJock, it also helps me to see how source package branches really need to be.
[20:56] <ogra> LaserJock, it definately makes sense for all native packages
[20:56] <LaserJock> rockstar: if you have particular packages you're interested we could do a collaborative bzr setup
[20:56] <rockstar> LaserJock, are you an upstream developer as well?
[20:56] <LaserJock> rockstar: nope, not of any of those
[20:57] <rockstar> LaserJock, or maybe we create a team?
[20:57] <LaserJock> I do some upstream work on chemistry apps
[20:57] <LaserJock> here's one scenario, and perhaps ogra can chime in here
[20:58] <rockstar> That might help workflow a bit.  There's a team that does the work, and then you just mentor it into main
[20:58] <LaserJock> we could create an edubuntu-packaging team that could hold bzr branches for the most common edubuntu packages
[20:58] <LaserJock> it could also then house a testing PPA
[20:58] <rockstar> +1 already.  You don't have to keep going.  :)
[20:59] <rockstar> Then you could do the syncs with main, all the while not blocking continued work.
[20:59] <LaserJock> in that way people can have fun learning to package in Edubuntu, and its a bit easier for  me to sponsor stuff if it's in a bzr branch
[21:00] <LaserJock> ogra: think that's doable, practical?
[21:00] <rockstar> syncs to the packaging team's bzr branch could be done through merge proposals.
[21:00] <ogra> surely
[21:00] <ogra> that works very well if upstream is in bzr
[21:00] <LaserJock> in reality we currently don't have a lot of apps to worry about
[21:00] <ogra> which a lot is on LP
[21:01] <LaserJock> many of our apps come straight from Debian
[21:01] <LaserJock> and we work fairly hard to keep it that way
[21:01] <rockstar> ogra, I assume you know this is where all of Ubuntu's packages will be in 6 months anyway.
[21:01] <LaserJock> but anything where we are upstream or where we need to maintain a common diff
[21:01] <LaserJock> it could help
[21:01] <ogra> rockstar, indeed
[21:01] <LaserJock> I'm honestly not a huge bzr fan for packaging
[21:02] <rockstar> Edubuntu could really help me during the day if we started a flow like that.
[21:02] <LaserJock> I've done some experiments, etc. to get used to it
[21:02] <ogra> me neither ... but if source packages go away i will be
[21:02] <rockstar> LaserJock, resistance is futile.  :)
[21:02] <ogra> currently you have a lot of duplication
[21:02] <LaserJock> james_w in particular has been creating some good tools to help at least
[21:02] <rockstar> Imagine apt-bzr, where you can pull the latest source, build a package, and install it.
[21:02] <LaserJock> yeah, and it seems like you end up having to track more stuff
[21:02] <ogra> if packages can build directly from bzr branches then its cool
[21:03] <rockstar> You can be ever more bleeding edge than debian unstable!
[21:03] <ogra> not that  would want to :)
[21:03] <LaserJock> heh, yeah
[21:03] <ogra> the thing is that for package maintenance bzr currently adds a massive overhead
[21:03] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:03] <rockstar> LaserJock, so do you want to create a team?
[21:04] <ogra> i need to apply my changes to the bzr branch, pull them again, make a source package out of it and puch that
[21:04] <LaserJock> I've locally got bzr imports of all Debian and Ubuntu packages for ~ 10 Edubuntu apps
[21:04] <LaserJock> took a long time to do and takes up a lot of space
[21:04] <ogra> with sourcepackages only i can have my source, make my changes and just push
[21:04] <rockstar> LaserJock, push them plz
[21:04] <LaserJock> *but* seems like a more collaborative way of working for sure
[21:05] <ogra> the thing is that you need to make the sourcepackage go away in that setup
[21:05] <rockstar> And the current model is much less collaborative, IMHO
[21:05] <ogra> so you have only a bzr branch and a "build now damnit !" button next to the branch in LP
[21:05] <LaserJock> ogra: yep, that would work
[21:05] <rockstar> ogra, invent a time machine and go forward a year.  :)
[21:05] <LaserJock> I just don't like how easily bzr and uploads can get out of sync
[21:06] <ogra> rockstar, nah, i can wait :)
[21:06] <LaserJock> you gotta really stick to the bzr to make it work well
[21:06] <rockstar> LaserJock, if you're doing the uploads, then they won't.
[21:06] <ogra> the thing is that until this is here we have a lot of duplication doing packaging
[21:06] <rockstar> ogra, agreed.
[21:06] <LaserJock> *but* I'm also using git and svn for maintaining in Debian and they work decent enough
[21:06] <LaserJock> the real bugger for us is that we have Debian to deal with
[21:07] <LaserJock> so I need to track upstream, debian, and my changes
[21:07] <ogra> well, not if debian gets puled into lp bzr branches
[21:07] <ogra> yu just merge two branches
[21:07] <LaserJock> hopefully yes
[21:07] <LaserJock> but currently
[21:07] <LaserJock> bit of a pain
[21:07] <rockstar> LaserJock, do you have stockholm syndrome?
[21:08] <ogra> https://code.launchpad.net/gcompris
[21:08] <LaserJock> most probably i do for sure
[21:08] <ogra> have a look
[21:08] <rockstar> LaserJock, :)
[21:08] <LaserJock> ogra: I got tuxpaint and tuxpaint stamps vcs imports going
[21:09] <ogra> https://code.launchpad.net/tuxpaint :
[21:09] <rockstar> If you need any other vcs imports, just set them up and ping me.  I'll approve them immediately.
[21:09] <ogra> :)
[21:09] <LaserJock> I've been slowly working on getting the Edubuntu upstream projects registered in LP and getting vcs imports
[21:09] <ogra> i see
[21:09] <LaserJock> so upstreams are fairly easy
[21:10] <LaserJock> the packaging is the difficult part
[21:10] <LaserJock> and I'm not sure how much I want to mess up LP :-)
[21:10] <LaserJock> I have Debian imported locally
[21:10] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure if I want to make a branch jungle :-)
[21:10] <rockstar> LaserJock, mess up what?
[21:11] <LaserJock> well, mostly I'm concerned about confusing people with too many branches
[21:11] <rockstar> Branch jungles are easily avoided with release branches
[21:11] <rockstar> Er, series branches
[21:11] <LaserJock> and if I go and put up my own imports, then LP does imports, then I do Edubuntu imports
[21:12] <LaserJock> then we all get confused, give up, and go back to the "old fashioned" way
[21:12] <LaserJock> :-)
[21:14] <LaserJock> rockstar: do you have particular apps you're interested in?
[21:20] <rockstar> LaserJock, well, I don't really know.  I'd like to be more involved in educational content on a whole, but anything to get started.
[21:43] <LaserJock> ok
[21:43] <LaserJock> so it looks like gpaint, tuxmath, and tuxpaint-stamps are the only edubuntu apps that we get straight from Debian
[21:43] <nubae> LaserJock: what did u think of the moodle idea?
[21:44] <LaserJock> 18 have Edubuntu modifications
[21:44] <LaserJock> and 4ish are Edubuntu-specific
[21:45] <LaserJock> nubae: well, it's something that would be fun, but I'm afraid that it probably isn't feasible
[21:45] <nubae> is there such a thing as install on click for ubuntu
[21:45] <nubae> LaserJock: why not?
[21:45] <LaserJock> nubae: I doubt that the Canonical IS team would allow moodle on any of their machines
[21:45] <LaserJock> nubae: yes, there is an install-on-click thing. it's called apturl
[21:45] <nubae> ah... and if we host it some place else?
[21:46] <nubae> my thinking is, we could store all the apps there for easy demoing
[21:46] <LaserJock> that's got a lot of problems as well
[21:46] <nubae> a database with links to all the apps
[21:46] <nubae> with explanation, etc
[21:46] <LaserJock> oh, well we can certainly do that kind of thing
[21:46] <LaserJock> just not with moodle
[21:46] <LaserJock> edubuntu.org is drupal
[21:46] <nubae> well, moodle is what I know best
[21:46] <nubae> yeah I know
[21:46] <nubae> its just not as friendly
[21:46] <LaserJock> we could also use a wiki page
[21:47] <nubae> would be nicer in a db, but yeah
[21:47] <LaserJock> well, some time ago
[21:47] <LaserJock> we had a spec about creating a full application database engine and webapp
[21:47] <nubae> but apturl is a good idea, it would bring a certain front to edubuntu... u would see what u get
[21:47] <LaserJock> it was a nice spec, just nobody to implement it
[21:49] <nubae> right now there is no place that defines whats in edubuntu
[21:49] <nubae> kind of important
[21:51] <LaserJock> yep, just not always easy to do/maintain
[22:29] <Lns> Anyone here wanna try running tuxpaint from a thinclient with the --nosound switch to see if it still pegs out the CPU and doesn't exit cleanly? See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tuxpaint/+bug/269082
[22:29] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 269082 in tuxpaint "tuxpaint and other tux SDL driven apps slow down and/or freeze thin client terminals (ltsp)" [High,Confirmed]