2008/11/01/#ubuntu-devel.txt

[00:00] <calc> cjwatson: can we get the alpha milestone targets?
[00:00] <wgrant> Oh, I thought I saw somewhere that it was selective.
[00:00] <calc> and we probably don't need the 8.10 targets anymore (unless i am mistaken?)
[00:00] <cjwatson> calc: ok, will do shortly
[00:00] <calc> other than intrepid-updates i mean
[00:01] <cjwatson> calc: yeah, in order to close those out I need to do the tedious work of going through them and reassigning stuff though
[00:01] <calc> cjwatson: thanks :)
[00:01] <cjwatson> wgrant: by architecture, but I *think* not by release
[00:01] <calc> cjwatson: oh i see, don't worry about those for now then, heh
[00:02] <calc> oh does anyone know why dapper and gutsy still aren't on the wiki.u.c page?
[00:02] <calc> they were removed when the updated page was put up and haven't been added back since
[00:02] <cjwatson> what wiki.u.c page?
[00:02] <calc> wiki.ubuntu.com main page
[00:02] <calc> it shows released as only hardy and intrepid
[00:02] <cjwatson> calc: I think it's fine for it just to list the major current ones
[00:03] <calc> up until ~ last week it showed all supported dists
[00:03] <calc> ok
[00:03] <cjwatson> i.e. current LTS and current non-LTS
[00:03] <cjwatson> I edited it to move intrepid to stable and add jaunty; before I did so, it only listed hardy as stable
[00:03] <calc> ok
[00:04] <calc> yea the page was very significantly changed around last week
[00:07] <emgent> hello
[00:09] <cjwatson> calc: alpha milestones created
[00:10] <calc> cjwatson: thanks! :)
[00:11] <calc> hmm we are going to have the debian import freeze during vacation? :)
[00:12] <cjwatson> that's why the question mark is against it
[00:12] <calc> oh ok
[00:12] <cjwatson> I think it's a sucky date but OTOH the gap between feature freeze and DIF is already tighter than usual, and UDS is late
[00:13] <calc> and OOo isn't even scheduled to release 3.1 until the week of our feature freeze so we will probably have 3.0.1
[00:13] <cjwatson> so I was short of available choices - I mentioned it in the mail I sent out to Steve and the team leads after creating that schedule page
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[00:13] <calc> 6 weeks past our FF would put it at RC week
[00:15] <cjwatson> coo, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/<milestone-name> has any bugs assigned to you highlighted now
[00:16] <calc> heh the two remaining 3.0.1 RC bugs were filed by me >:)
[00:16] <wgrant> cjwatson: I see that jaunty is on a.u.c now.
[00:17] <cjwatson> wgrant: depends which backend you happen to hit, I think
[00:17] <cjwatson> wgrant: it's not on all of them, so you'll get inconsistent results
[00:17] <wgrant> cjwatson: I guess.
[00:19] <cjwatson> wgrant: hmm, or there's something screwy with my cache; manual wget from all four backends shows jaunty on all of them
[00:20] <cjwatson> as does looking at it from chiark
[00:20] <cjwatson> very confused. I guess it'll sort itself out.
[00:20] <calc> wow supposedly early voting lines in Atlanta were as long as 10hrs long today
[00:20] <wgrant> At least it's mostly there and should fix itself.
[00:20]  * wgrant updates lots of scripts.
[00:21] <jdong> hmm, fedora has this conveniently written dkms.conf... I wonder if it'll work for me.
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[00:41] <wgrant> How is one meant to watch changes in a stable release now? The only way I can see is to diff Packages files, as all changes are now done by native copies...
[01:01] <elmo> cjwatson: confirmed
[01:01] <elmo> and there is load issues on archive.u.c; I'm working on increasing the capacity to compensate
[02:10] <layy> Friends, after the troubles regarding bug #263555 that would permanently corrupt some Intel NIC hardware in some alpha releases, may you confirm if it is it really safe now to install 8.10? (I know that it shouldn't be a concern now, but just for the case before I cross the point of non-return)
[02:10] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 263555 in linux-lpia "[intrepid] 2.6.27 e1000e driver places Intel ICH8 and ICH9 gigE chipsets at risk" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/263555
[02:11] <ScottK> layy: Note the status of the bug.
[02:14] <layy> ScottK, I'm somewhat new to the field... so the "Fix Released" means that it won't hurt me, but from what I can make out, my NIC won't work... Am I correct?
[02:15]  * ScottK look at the bug.
[02:16] <wgrant> It will work.
[02:16] <ScottK> layy: ^^^
[02:17] <layy> wgrant, ScottK, thanks a lot
[02:18] <calc> anyone know if KDE uses enchant for dictionaries?
[02:19] <ScottK> calc: Let me see if I have it installed.  That would be a hint.
[02:20] <calc> appears to be linked to kdelibs5
[02:35] <ScottK> calc: Is this the enchant dictionary that's part of abiword?
[02:36] <ScottK> That's the one Google found for me.
[02:48] <ScottK> calc: It looks like it does/will, but I don't find a clear reference.
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=== Sikon is now known as LucidFox
[03:00] <calc> ScottK: yes
[05:06] <superm1> slangasek, I believe you alluded to the reasoning before, but how come I can't "apt-get install mythbuntu-desktop^" to get the task for it installed?
[05:06] <NCommander> evening world
[05:06] <superm1> I was hoping to switch over to livecd-rootfs early before the rest of the world around everything broke making it difficult, and not being able to have an apt-get'able task seems to make that significantly more difficult
[05:42] <NetEcho> who maintains the installer, specifically the timezone portion of it?
[05:45] <NetEcho> in other words who do I report an error in timezones that has been there since the first versions of ubuntu to?
[05:50] <NetEcho> well if anyone is paying attention, the installer lists Toronto/New York as GMT -4 which is Atlantic Standard Time but they are GMT -5 Eastern Standard Time
[05:51] <cody-somerville> NetEcho, Ever heard of DST? :P
[05:51] <NetEcho> still -5
[05:51] <NCommander> NetEcho, -4 if DST is in effect from GMT
[05:51] <NetEcho> AST is for Atlantic provinces only
[05:52] <Hobbsee> NetEcho: you report a bug.
[05:52] <NetEcho> NCommander all year round it says -4 and according to government firms its never -4
[05:52] <NetEcho> we're always -5
[05:52] <cody-somerville> You're wrong
[05:52] <cody-somerville> Absolutely, 100% wrong
[05:52] <Hobbsee> it's probably tzdata, too
[05:52] <NetEcho> tell that to our government too
[05:52] <NetEcho> who teaches that from grade 4 on
[05:52] <cody-somerville> We're not in AST
[05:52] <cody-somerville> We're in ADT
[05:52] <Hobbsee> NetEcho: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+filebug
[05:52] <cody-somerville> Atlantic Canada is currently -0300
[05:52] <NetEcho> ADT is -3
[05:52] <Hobbsee> NetEcho: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+filebug
[05:52] <NCommander> And this is when my brain goes bye bye, and checks out for the night
[05:52] <Hobbsee> correct link, even.
[05:53] <NCommander> wow
[05:53] <NetEcho> New York might follow EDT
[05:53] <NCommander> NetEcho, we use EDT/EST normally
[05:53] <NCommander> So from GMT, we're -4, we'll be -5 once EST comes up
[05:53] <NCommander> But when you call people in UK, it might be -4 to -6 due to DST and the status of British summer time
[05:54] <NetEcho> I've never seen it show -5 tho ever
[05:55] <NCommander> NetEcho, are you in atlantic, or eastern time?
[05:55] <NetEcho> eastern
[05:55] <NCommander> Ok, what time does your computer say it is now, and what time does it think UTC is
[05:56] <NCommander> (use date, and date -u respectively on the command line)
[05:56] <NetEcho> well my windows machines and debian machine all say 01:56 GMT -5
[05:57] <NCommander> NetEcho, what does date -u say?
[05:57] <NCommander> It should say: (without -u) Sat Nov  1 01:57:14 EDT 2008
[05:57] <NCommander> and with:
[05:57] <NCommander> er
[05:57] <NCommander> Sat Nov  1 05:57:15 UTC 2008
[05:58] <NetEcho> 1 sec trying to copy it over
[05:59] <NetEcho> well except for a slight difference in time which is probably due to mine being out of sync thats what I get
[05:59] <NetEcho> Sat Nov 01 01:59:50 EDT 2008
[06:00] <NetEcho> Sat Nov 01 06:00:11 UTC 2008
[06:01] <NetEcho> does that just reset it to GMT 0 or something?
[06:01] <NetEcho> hrm wait that is -4
[06:02] <NetEcho> so maybe certain apps are going by just the EST and ignoring EDT?
[06:02] <NetEcho> although EDT ends tonight I think for us
[06:03] <NetEcho> since the 4th is a tuesday
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[08:40] <Mez> hmm... server upgrade saying there's not a new version
[08:44] <wgrant> Mez: You'll need to alter some config file, or it'll only look for a new LTS.
[08:44] <Mez> wgrant, I just poked a "-d"
[08:44] <Mez> on the end
[08:44] <wgrant> /etc/update-manager/release-upgrades
[08:45] <Mez> that's probably a good idea actually (the whole LTS thing)
[08:45] <Mez> :'( damnit, cant upgrade my eee :(
[08:45] <wgrant> Why not?
[08:45] <Mez> disk space ;)
[08:45] <wgrant> Ah.
[08:45] <Mez> (not enough of it)
[08:46] <Mez> ah well, hardy's UNR is quite nice
[08:47] <Mez> poo, I shoulda disabled apt-listchanges too :)
[08:59] <bremby1> hi. I'd like to know, how are the Ubuntu's shared libraries from Glibc configured? Are they somehow optimised?
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[10:52] <woden1> was cheese dropped from 8.10?
[10:53] <wgrant> woden1: No, it's just not installed by default.
[10:53] <woden1> wgrant:  Ok.  But it was default install on 8.04 correct?
[10:55] <wgrant> woden1: I don't believe so...
[10:56] <wgrant> Hmm, it was in main, so it's possible. Let's see.
[10:56] <woden1> wgrant: when I go to add/remove applications, and type in cheese, it doesn't find anything
[10:56] <wgrant> woden1: Ensure that you have universe enabled.
[10:57] <woden1> deb http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ intrepid universe
[10:57] <woden1> that's it right?
[10:57] <wgrant> Yes.
[10:58] <woden1> Applications --> Add/Remove Applications
[10:58] <woden1> Show Canonical-maintained applications
[10:59] <woden1> Search: cheese
[10:59] <wgrant> It's not Canonical-maintained.
[10:59] <woden1> "There is no matching application available."
[10:59] <wgrant> You want "All Open Source applications"
[10:59] <woden1> ok
[10:59] <woden1> thanks
[11:00] <woden1> if you dont mind, i have another easy question...
[11:00] <woden1> what is the official way to install java and flash?  when I go to a site that uses either one, i dont get the dialog that pops up and asks me to install the software.
[11:00] <wgrant> This isn't a support channel; you'd be better in #ubuntu
[11:00] <woden1> alright
[11:01] <elvis> why was g++ not included in 8.04+?
[11:17]  * StevenK blinks
[11:18] <StevenK> [22:01] < elvis> why was g++ not included in 8.04+?
[11:18] <StevenK> ... It was?
[11:22] <wgrant> StevenK: Presumably he means the CD.
[11:22] <bremby1> guys, do you know anything about the precompiled shared libraries in Ubuntu?
[11:23] <wgrant> !ask | bremby1
[11:23] <ubottu> bremby1: Please don't ask to ask a question, ask the question (all on ONE line, so others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely answer. :-)
[11:23] <bremby1> sorry. are they compiled with some specific options? I mean ./configure --options
[11:24] <wgrant> It depends on the package... see debian/rules in the source package for the binary that you want.
[11:26] <bremby1> if I'd like to use the glibc libraries from my Ubuntu system, where do I get the configuration?
[11:27] <wgrant> What?
[11:27] <wgrant> Why do you need it?
[11:28] <bremby1> I'd like to build my own system, but I can't get glibc-2.8 compiled, and since I found out glibc doesn't take optimizations, and i386 or i486 would be sufficient, I may be able just to copy them
[11:31] <bremby1> I'll be away, mom's callinf for lunch :-)
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[11:46] <bremby1> wgrant: so, can you guide me or something?
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[14:08] <tseliot> superm1: I have a workaround for bug 286424, can you have a look at the debdiff, please?
[14:08] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 286424 in nvidia-settings "nvidia-settings crashes when user clicks Save To X Configuration File" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286424
[14:11] <tseliot> or DktrKranz ^^
[14:11] <superm1> tseliot, i might recommend that you contact the nvidia-settings packaging team for debian and get them to stop including patches directly to the source, i definitely agree there
[14:12] <superm1> otherwise looks fairly sane
[14:12] <superm1> are you intending an SRU for this?
[14:13] <tseliot> superm1: yes, it would be a good idea to do both things
[14:13] <tseliot> (SRU and contacting upstream)
[14:13] <superm1> tseliot, okay well jaunty archives should (theoretically) be opening up on Monday, so the debdiff will probably be uploaded to Jaunty monday, and then add an intrepid task for SRU to do it to
[14:16] <tseliot> superm1: ah, shall I wait until the debdiff it's in Jaunty?
[14:21] <superm1> tseliot, well given how soon the archive is supposed to open, i figure might as well
[14:22] <superm1> the SRU won't get much pull over a weekend anyhow
[14:23] <tseliot> superm1: I was asking because I would like to request an SRU now (no matter when it will be reviewed) so as to start working on the nvidia packages
[14:24] <superm1> tseliot, well you can turn that bug into an SRU request right now at least and then have the two debdiffs prepared for both jaunty and intrepid no trouble
[14:25] <tseliot> superm1: ok, done. Thanks for reviewing the debdiff
[15:07] <heruan> hi guys, I used to have a VM with the devel-version of Ubuntu, so I'm trying to install Jaunty Jackalope on a new VM via a netinstall
[15:08] <heruan> but when I have to choose the packages' mirror, it gives me an error
[15:08] <heruan> (I choose "archive.ubuntu.com")
[15:09] <heruan> is already possible to install it? or the repository is not complete yet?
[15:43] <Keybuk> Rejected:
[15:43] <Keybuk> Cannot build any of the architectures requested: any
[15:43] <Keybuk> ...
[15:45] <StevenK> Haha
[15:46] <Keybuk> WAIT! THIS DISTRORELEASE IS NOT YET READY!
[15:48] <pwnguin> oh teh funnay: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libgnomecanvas/+bug/272316/comments/21
[15:48] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 272316 in libgnomecanvas "[regression, intrepid] redraw problems, patches from fedora" [Low,Confirmed]
[15:59] <bluefoxicy> could someone please verify #288173 is complete?
[15:59] <bluefoxicy> it's pending information from me, but I think i got everything
[17:03] <Cheery> where to find asm/io.h?
[17:03] <Cheery> (trying to get gravitywars to work)
[17:04] <Keybuk> linux-headers
[17:04] <Keybuk> though it's possible it's a deprecated header that doesn't exist anymore
[17:04] <Keybuk> you'd need to know what kernel gravitywars was intended to work for
[17:05] <Cheery> it seems like it's very very old though
[17:06] <Cheery> Keybuk: and I have linux headers already, and it still freaks
[17:09] <Cheery> It'd be perhaps easier for me to rewrite the game and just check out the formats :(
[17:09] <Cheery> ...
[17:10] <Keybuk> Cheery: then I suspect it was written for an older kernel
[17:10] <Cheery> hmm.. :) perhaps that's a solution here.
[17:10] <Keybuk> stuff that includes from linux/ or asm/ really needs to be well maintained and kept up to date by the author
[17:10] <Keybuk> perhaps ask the author if they have a version for Linux 2.6.27 ?
[17:10] <Keybuk> or whether they could avoid unstable APIs
[17:11] <Keybuk> depending what it's doing, you may find that replacing that include with sys/io.h will fix it
[17:11] <Cheery> good choice as well.. but perhaps then the first thing that came into mind may be good as well
[17:11] <kees> Cheery: what things does it want from io.h?  (i.e. if you remove it, what does it things does it fail to find?)
[17:11] <Cheery> doesnt seem to fail anything
[17:12] <Cheery> except I found now a bit different place where it fails
[17:12] <Cheery> line 725: Explode:
[17:12] <Cheery> hmh
[17:12] <Cheery> I just downloaded this code, if you are interested, I could give the link to sources
[17:13] <kees> nah, I've got my own stuff to hack on :)
[17:13] <Keybuk> any reason you're trying to compile it yourself?
[17:13] <woden1> How do I make it so that internal NTFS drives are automatically mounted?
[17:13] <Keybuk> sudo apt-get install gravitywars
[17:13] <Cheery> Keybuk: tried it already
[17:13] <Keybuk> we've already gone to the trouble of getting that to build for you ;)
[17:14] <Cheery> Keybuk: it's so fast-running that I can't play it
[17:14] <Keybuk> Cheery: what did you change in the source to prevent that?
[17:14] <Cheery> not yet anything, trying to first get it run
[17:14] <Keybuk> if you want to work on the Ubuntu source:
=== RainCT_ is now known as RainCT
[17:14] <Keybuk> apt-get source gravitywars
[17:14] <Keybuk> and sudo apt-get build-dep gravitywars
[17:15] <Keybuk> (you'll also want sudo apt-get install build-essential)
[17:15] <Cheery> oh, I didn't knew about that
[17:17] <Cheery> Keybuk: I guess this one is highly modified, since it requires sdl
[17:19] <Cheery> the old seemed to use libsvga
[17:20] <Cheery> but then, they say they work without X
[17:24] <Cheery> Keybuk: that source is equivalent to one I have here
[17:26] <abogani> superm1: Could you review my last debdiff for bug #286961, please?
[17:26] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 286961 in fglrx-installer "fglrx not working on rt kernel" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286961
[17:29] <superm1> abogani, oh i believe i forgot to send my response.  this is best done a patch applied at dkms time not package build time
[17:29] <superm1> eg you have to add a line to dkms.conf and make sure it gets installed "in" fglrx-kernel-source
[17:30] <woden1> How do I make it so that internal NTFS drives are automatically mounted?
[17:32] <abogani> superm1: Where i can find the DKMS's manual?
[17:32] <superm1> abogani, man dkms :)
[17:40] <sigp239> How do I make it so that Ubuntu 8.10 automatically mounts my internal NTFS drive?
[17:42] <abogani> sigp239: I suspect that you are asking in the wrong channel. In any case you are lokking for option auto in /etc/fstab file.
[17:42] <abogani> s/lokking/looking
[17:43] <sigp239> abongani:  I can't find any instructions online that show how to do this
[17:44] <abogani> Line 322 in the dkms man pages contain an error.
[17:45] <tseliot> sigp239: try asking in #ubuntu
[17:48] <jdong> what is the error?
[17:48]  * jdong just used that manpage yesterday to make an alsa package
[17:58] <abogani> Dkms's manpage contains some reference to /var/dkms that IMHO should be /var/lib/dkms (line 23, 230, 360, 413), isn't it?
[18:04] <jdong> ah yes, you're correct
[18:04] <jdong> would you like to file a bug against that, if there isn't one already?
[18:26] <woden1> I'm having a problem here that nobody seems to solve I am hoping you can.  How do I make it so that Ubuntu 8.10 automatically mounts my internal NTFS drive?
[18:27] <Chipzz> woden1: not a support channel
[18:28] <jdong> and being banned from a support channel isn't a valid excuse either
[18:29] <woden1> Well I was wondering if Ubuntu could "develop" a way to make it so that internal NTFS drives are automatically mounted at boot?
[18:30] <Chipzz> woden1: it already has that possibility
[18:30] <Chipzz> but haven't you read what I and jdong just said?
[18:31] <woden1> Chipzz:  Yes, but I mean as a default behaviour.  Currently this is not the default behaviour.
[18:31] <woden1> Yes, fine I am leaving now.  Thanks for listening.
[18:34] <Cheery> Is there a sane way to close down pulseaudio?
[18:35] <crimsun> pulseaudio -k
[18:36] <Cheery> W: ltdl-bind-now.c: Failed to find original dlopen loader.
[18:36] <crimsun> (don't test the exit value, though.)
[18:36] <Cheery> E: main.c: Failed to kill daemon.
[18:36] <crimsun> that's fine.
[18:36] <Cheery> ok, lets see whether this works any better now
[18:37] <Cheery> argh
[18:37] <Cheery> alsa does not work any better
[18:37] <crimsun> if you're trying to use alsa directly, you need to remove libasound2-plugins, too.
[18:38] <crimsun> (or pass a specific virtual device to alsa-lib)
[18:38] <Cheery> well, in the end I'd like to get sound working in wine
[18:38] <crimsun> E.g., speaker-test -c2 -Dplug:hw:0  /not/  speaker-test -c2
[18:38] <afflux> Cheery: running wine with padsp or pasuspender always worked fine for me.
[18:39] <afflux> (that's not really -devel either, is it?)
[18:39] <Cheery> hmm
[18:39] <Cheery> afflux: well, it seems like the audio works at places now though
[18:40] <Cheery> it starts to garble when videos come in though
[18:41] <Cheery> and I have one game which is so dependent on video that it's unplayable without it
[19:02] <abogani> jdong: I just filled the bug #292289 and attached a possible fix.
[19:02] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 292289 in dkms "Wrong path into man page" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/292289
[19:07] <jdong> abogani: target it at jaunty, not intrepid
[19:07] <jdong> abogani: and if you want, do a ubuntu2.1 at intrepid-proposed too
[19:07] <jdong> and subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors, ubuntu-sru
[19:20] <doggymenz> the problem with Ubuntu is that it is toooooooooooo slow
[19:48] <doggymenz> make ubuntu faster, its too slow
[19:48] <lifeless> doggymenz: what do you mean
[19:50] <doggymenz> lifeless, i installed Ubuntu on my sister computer, and my brother says its slow and lags and is slower than xp
[19:50] <lifeless> interesting
[19:51] <lifeless> this isn't usually the case, so I suggest seeking some help on the forums to figure out why
[19:51] <doggymenz> and on my machine, i noticed GNOME starts so slow, that even KDE loads faster
[19:52] <doggymenz> and that open gcalc takes 1-2s in ubuntu, but in xp takes 0sec
[19:53] <lifeless> definitely sounds like there is an issue; again I suggest you contact the forums
[19:53] <lifeless> this channel is for doing the development itself - if you wish to do that, I'd be delighted to give you some wiki references to start reading and so on.
[19:54] <doggymenz> oh ok
[19:54] <doggymenz> so your gcalc starts instantly, 0sec, blink of an eye, no delay?
[19:54] <Keybuk> takes about 2-3s
[19:54] <doggymenz> yeah, i agree... thats what im talking about
[19:54] <doggymenz> gcalc takes 2-3 sec to start...
[19:55] <doggymenz> but in windows xp it starts instantly, in blink of eye, no delay, 0 sec!
[19:55] <Keybuk> so it doesn't sound like you have a problem
[19:55] <lifeless> mine takes < 1/2 a sec
[19:55] <doggymenz> well the problem is that it is too slow
[19:55] <Keybuk> doggymenz: do you know how to make it start faster?
[19:55] <Keybuk> or do you know how xp manages to start programs faster?
[19:55] <doggymenz> Keybuk, no, i wish
[19:55] <doggymenz> no i dont
[19:55] <doggymenz> but xp does it somehow
[19:55] <Keybuk> then it's not really a relevant discussion for this channel
[19:55] <doggymenz> well, someone should figure out how to make it start same fast as xp
[19:56] <Keybuk> this is not the channel to make such requests
[19:56] <doggymenz> you are developer guy, you can developer stuff, so you can develop it fast
[19:56] <Keybuk> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ is where you can propose development ideas
[19:56] <lifeless> doggymenz: yes, you're totally right. But *this channel* is for *doing that* not *asking to do that*
[19:56] <Keybuk> or if you think there's a bug, http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[19:57] <doggymenz> ok
[19:57] <doggymenz> but i cant do nothing, im a dumbass, that why i ask other to fix it
[19:57] <Keybuk> we get literally a million different such requests
[19:58] <doggymenz> oh :(
[19:58] <doggymenz> most important is hardware support
[19:58] <doggymenz> then is usability
[19:58] <doggymenz> then is perfooooooooooooooooooooormance!!!!!!!11
[19:58] <Keybuk> for every person that wants the calculator to start faster, another ten want it to have more features
[19:58] <doggymenz> oh, also security :D
[19:58] <Keybuk> fast, useful, stable
[19:58] <doggymenz> i just use gcalc as example of slowliness, i want everything to be faster
[19:58] <Keybuk> pick any two
[19:58] <Keybuk> doggymenz: the best way you can help is to find a way for us to make it faster
[19:59] <Keybuk> and then join the development team and work on that
[19:59] <doggymenz> i cant, im a dumb
[19:59] <Keybuk> otherwise you've just tied up half an hour of two developer's time, distracting them from whatever they were working on
[20:00] <doggymenz> ok, then i leave
[20:00] <doggymenz> but plz fix
[20:00] <directhex> sigh
[20:00] <Keybuk> he's right that gnome stuff takes a ridiculous amount of time to start
[20:01] <Keybuk> especially since all the libraries gcalc uses should be in the damned page cache
[20:01] <directhex> ever think "let's just not release the next version, the people on irc and forums etc just make it totally not worth it"?
[20:01] <Keybuk> it takes that long warm, so it must be something else
[20:02] <Keybuk> read(11, "GIOP\1\2\1\1$\0\0\0", 12)     = 12
[20:02] <Keybuk> a lot of that kind of thing in strace
[20:02] <Keybuk> yay corba
[20:05]  * Keybuk wonders why the hell a calculator needs corba
[20:05] <Keybuk> gconf probably
[20:08] <jcristau> 'xterm -e bc' doesn't need corba \o/
[20:08] <Treenaks> I tough gnome was phasing out corba?
[20:08] <Treenaks> +t
[20:08] <ogra> jcristau, thats something only an X dev could say :P
[20:09] <Keybuk> Treenaks: ish
[20:09] <Keybuk> they are all enthusiastic about getting rid of CORBA
[20:09] <ogra> still in its early stages
[20:09] <Keybuk> but I've noticed a strong tendency in GNOME to not really do such things
[20:09] <ogra> but dbus is the future
[20:10] <Keybuk> dbus is pretty slow too
[20:10] <Keybuk> lots of round-trips
[20:10] <jcristau> in the mean time you get dbus + corba
[20:10] <jcristau> :)
[20:10] <ogra> yeah :/
[20:12] <Keybuk> silly really
[20:12] <Keybuk> you could do dbus variable looks in the client library by just mmapping a database file
[20:12] <Keybuk> no need to have a daemon roundtrip
[20:12] <Keybuk> err, gconf variable looks
[20:13] <Treenaks> Keybuk: ... patches welcome :)
[20:14] <Keybuk> I have so many patches to write :(
[20:14] <ogra> Patchbuk ?
[20:16] <ion_> PatchbukKit
[20:16] <ogra> heh
[20:19] <Treenaks> Keybuk: then at least blog about it, so someone who does have time can work on it :)
[20:21] <Keybuk> Treenaks: to blog, I need to have concrete facts
[20:22] <Keybuk> relatively high on my todo list is to try and get a decent tracing tool
[20:22] <Keybuk> something a bit better than bootchart
[20:22] <Keybuk> then we could get an accurate idea of "this app takes too long doing that"
[20:23] <Treenaks> Keybuk: better version of http://people.freedesktop.org/~vvaradan/misc/evo/graph-log-level.png?
[20:23] <Keybuk> that's not very readable ;)
[20:23] <Keybuk> isn't that just done with printf?
[20:24] <Treenaks> printf doesn't do the nice lines
[20:24] <Keybuk> what do the lines mean?
[20:24] <Treenaks> http://blogs.gnome.org/thos/files/2008/06/1.png might be a better example
[20:25] <Keybuk> ah, yeah, that's nice
[21:06] <lifeless> dbus is shudder
[21:07] <pochu> is intrepid supposed to work on a PS3?
[21:08] <EvanCarroll> pochu: not in an official capacity.
[21:08] <EvanCarroll> pochu: there is a version compiled for it
[21:08] <cjwatson> pochu: I'm told the alternate CD works to some degree; the release notes document the bits where it doesn't
[21:08] <cjwatson> pochu: the desktop CD is known not to work
[21:09] <EvanCarroll> nor will it ever, solong as the cell can't process x86 opcodes
[21:09] <EvanCarroll> anyone using ibex w/ a bluetooth keyboard
[21:10] <EvanCarroll> I've already filed a bug, I just want to check it.
[21:10] <cjwatson> the PS3 desktop CD used to work
[21:10] <cjwatson> so I don't believe "nor will it ever"
[21:10] <EvanCarroll> I think that the ubuntu HID devices aren't modified by the gnome-keyboard-preferences thingy, that I think uses xmodmap
[21:10] <EvanCarroll> cjwatson: when when was?
[21:11] <pochu> it's because of bug 292092. a user is trying to run liferea but it crashes on startup, and from the backtrace it looks like it's crashing in gtk/gobject
[21:11] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 292092 in liferea "Liferea won't run (only within a second)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/292092
[21:11] <cjwatson> EvanCarroll: feisty and gutsy
[21:11] <cjwatson> EvanCarroll: with a USB keyboard, but that's perfectly feasible
[21:12] <EvanCarroll> cjwatson: even fiesty had an alternate ps3 cd
[21:13] <EvanCarroll> ps3 should be power arch. and should not work at all with x86, afaik.
[21:13] <EvanCarroll> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/custom/20071025-gutsy-ps3/ubuntu-7.10-alternate-powerpc+ps3.iso
[21:13] <cjwatson> EvanCarroll: where did anyone claim it should?
[21:13] <cjwatson> EvanCarroll: yes, I know, I produced that CD by hand personally
[21:14] <cjwatson> I am well aware of what it was for
[21:14] <cjwatson> EvanCarroll: alternate/desktop is a different dimension from CPU architecture
[21:14] <EvanCarroll> i see, you said the ps3 desktop cd, i ignored the (ps3) part.
[21:14] <EvanCarroll> yes we are in agreeance.
[21:14] <cjwatson> I just said "the desktop CD"
[21:15] <cjwatson> but yes, I assumed "PS3" would be taken as read
[21:15] <EvanCarroll> too busy trying to figure out why a usb keyboard would work and not a bluetooth keyboard
[21:17] <EvanCarroll> any ideas on why xmodmap would not affect a usb keyboard
[21:18] <EvanCarroll> hrm now it seems to work.
[21:18] <EvanCarroll> awkward.
[21:18] <EvanCarroll> wait.
[21:18] <EvanCarroll> yea now it is working
[21:19] <EvanCarroll> just deleted the old keymap and picked the same one
[21:19] <EvanCarroll> I'll take it.
[21:24] <pochu> EvanCarroll: let me know if you can do a quick test on the ps3 :)
[21:29] <EvanCarroll> pochu: i actually don't have a ps3. I installed a previous version of ubuntu on a friends.
[21:30] <EvanCarroll> It was fun.
[21:30] <EvanCarroll> though rather useless.
[21:30] <EvanCarroll> the PS3 makes a bad computer. it has very fast ram, but not nearly enough.
[21:30] <directhex> missed opportunity.
[21:39] <Keybuk> directhex: opportunity for?
[21:40] <directhex> Keybuk, i dunno, something good. ps3 linux could almost be great, if it weren't pointless junk. a £300 blu-ray media station, gaming box, and full desktop pc? that's pretty sweet
[21:41] <Keybuk> the architecture isn't really optimised for desktop pc like tasts
[21:41] <Keybuk> tasks
[21:42] <EvanCarroll> Right. Like 'full' desktop pc, implies at the very least it can play flash.
[21:42] <Keybuk> I didn't really mean that
[21:42] <Keybuk> the PS3 is a wonderfully designed machine
[21:42] <Keybuk> capable of massive symmetric operations, with fast hardware access
[21:42] <Keybuk> which is great if you're writing games
[21:42] <Keybuk> but utterly useless for doing spreadsheets
[21:43] <EvanCarroll> ok, well a different argument just as useful but much harder to make to 95% of the audience.
[21:43] <Keybuk> PPE/SPU design is *really* bad for a multi-tasking operating system as well
[21:43] <Keybuk> it's utterly focussed on a single modal application
[21:43] <Keybuk> like a game, or a dvd, etc.
[21:44] <Keybuk> as soon as you want to multi-task, you suddenly have the problem of moving tasks between SPUs and the PPE
[21:44] <Keybuk> and it's realy not designed for that
[21:45] <Keybuk> it'd be like hiring James Bond, and giving him lots of paperwork
[23:02] <directhex> Keybuk, the SPU design is pretty sucky for games too - too much time spent manually shepherding segregated threads around
[23:17]  * torkel would be much more intrested in intrepid for IBM QS22 than for PS3 :-)
=== Pici` is now known as Pici
[23:38] <ricosecada> I know that the Ubuntu desktop edition is based upon the Debian unstable branch, but what branch of Debian is the Ubuntu server edition based upon?
[23:44] <ricosecada> Anyone?
[23:44] <azeem_> ricosecada: try #ubuntu
=== azeem_ is now known as azeem
[23:45] <ricosecada> I did
[23:50] <jdong> calc: holy freaking ouch I feel your pain regarding IO schedulers in Intrepid.
[23:51] <jdong> there's some sort of regression with responsiveness during heavy disk IO.
[23:51] <jdong> after a large copy job I ran sync (4G RAM) and it ended up tying up Firefox disk IO for over 2 minutes