2008/06/22/#ubuntu+1.txt

[00:06] <Amaranth> teamcobra: xen DomU support doesn't mean xen is completely up and running
[00:06] <teamcobra> Amaranth: ohh, it's just domu support that was merged
[00:07] <darthanubis> Bug #237801
[00:07] <teamcobra> that makes things a _lot_ clearer
[00:07] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 237801 in totem "Totem errors when attempting to play myth content." [Low,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/237801
[00:07] <Amaranth> it may also be Dom0 but it will still not mean Xen is completely up and running
[00:07] <Amaranth> you still need to install the userspace stuff and set it up
[00:07] <Amaranth> darthanubis: what about it?
[00:08] <darthanubis> wonder why its still incomplete
[00:08] <Amaranth> 1) that's for hardy, this channel is for intrepid
[00:08] <Amaranth> 2) most likely someone has not had time to look at it again
[00:09] <teamcobra> amaranth: ahh, will work on it a bit more then, I have libvirtd/virt-manager/xen-tools/libs installed, probably just missing 1 key piece.... also, thanks a lot for your nvidia patch, it works like a charm on this machine
[00:09] <Amaranth> darthanubis: you can change the status back to New yourself, you know
[00:09] <Amaranth> teamcobra: good to hear, that's the patch I gave to the l-r-m team :P
[00:09] <darthanubis> now I do
[00:10] <teamcobra> yeh, my next big challenge (a first for me anyway) is to make working nm/nm-applet 0.7.0 packages to stress-test with a few of my friends :)
[00:11] <Amaranth> teamcobra: eh, that's quite a bit of work
[00:12] <Amaranth> teamcobra: the upstream sources are not proper for ubuntu, they need to be patched quite heavily
[00:12] <Amaranth> or at least this was the case for 0.6.x
[00:12] <teamcobra> oh, nice ;)
[00:14] <teamcobra> that's the only thing fedora has over ubuntu, and I can tell you right now, from the perspective of a linux user for 12 years, that fedora made me want to throw my laptop as far as any other functionality besides nm-0.7.0 was concerned   (and I started w/ Slack)
[00:15] <teamcobra> (ran it for a month to test out a verizon card, big big mistake) ;p
[00:15] <Amaranth> I can't believe they use OOo from upstream instead of the go-oo version
[00:17] <teamcobra> hmm, that was the first I've even heard of go-oo, looks pretty decent... how does it stack up against oo 3.0-dev?
[00:17] <Amaranth> it probably doesn't, unless they have a 3.0-dev version
[00:17] <Amaranth> basically it adds a sane build system and some integration patches to OOo
[00:18] <Amaranth> it's more or less a fork but wishes it wasn't :P
[00:19] <teamcobra> yeh, was kind of the impression I got.... hrm, I think I might have to replace ooo in my dvd remaster ;)
[00:20] <teamcobra> the vba macros are kind of a biggie (not for me, but for a lot of business users)
[00:20] <Amaranth> afaik everyone using the go-oo one except redhat and sun
[00:20] <Amaranth> s/using/uses/
[00:21] <teamcobra> hrm, wow.... so how hard would it be for me to set up an automated build system? I've got 5 dualcore machines around me w/ nothing to do
[00:21] <teamcobra> it seems an ubuntu repo for go-oo is in order
[00:22] <Amaranth> ubuntu uses the go-oo version
[00:22] <teamcobra> ohh, redhat doesn't ;p
[00:22] <teamcobra> heh, here's what I can't believe.... default behavior for nautilus in f9 is to open every folder in a new window
[00:22] <Amaranth> that is useful
[00:23] <Amaranth> if you know that shortcut exists you are the kind of person that may have a use for it
[00:23] <teamcobra> you have to enable browser view in preferences.... useful to a degree, I suppose, but in most cases, when I want a new window, I end up using the context menu
[00:23] <Amaranth> and f9 gets rid of the sidebar here
[00:23] <Amaranth> or do you mean f9 does that in spatial mode?
[00:23] <teamcobra> right, both behaviors come back when web view is enabled
[00:24] <Amaranth> web view?
[00:24] <Amaranth> it's called browser, that doesn't mean web browser :P
[00:24] <teamcobra> meh, my bad, I was just about to double check the exact name
[00:24] <teamcobra> I knew it wasn't 100% accurate ;)
[00:24] <Amaranth> heh, you said browser first though :P
[00:25] <Amaranth> that's another thing, fedora still defaults to spatial
[00:26] <teamcobra> yeah, I'd hate to see the screaming that would ensue from pushing a f9 desktop onto any one of my random (l)users ;p ;p
[00:26] <teamcobra> fire would probably be involved too
[00:27] <DanaG> What exactly is xen, anyway?
[00:27] <DanaG> Yet another VM solution?
[00:27] <teamcobra> DanaG: yes
[00:27] <teamcobra> but a very good one, esp for production
[00:28] <pheeror> and the first to support that "cool" hw technologies for VM
[00:28] <DanaG> Hmm, what's this about nvidia with it?
[00:28] <DanaG> Or was I misinterpreting some earlier statement?
[00:29] <teamcobra> danag: that was barely related.... basically, xen used to require a seperate kernel, xen + normal kernels have been merged in intrepid, and amaranth made a patch for the nvidia driver installer to compile under a xen kernel properly
[00:29] <teamcobra> but related enough to need a patch ;)
[00:30] <DanaG> Oh, I see... so you can use a kernel either place, but having the capability of running it as a guest requires some patch to nvidia to get it to compile, or sometihng like that?
[00:30] <teamcobra> or as a host, but yes
[00:30] <DanaG> Aah.
[00:30] <DanaG> Because I was going to say.... why does a VM need nvidia?  =þ
[00:31] <teamcobra> or.... what did nvidia do now to break things? ;p ;p
[00:31] <pheeror> nvidia is a bit out of the day anyway
[00:31] <DanaG> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_evolution&num=1
[00:31] <pheeror> with their "support" for open-source
[00:32] <teamcobra> once radeonhd matures + the new 780m (puma) comes out, nvidia/intel are in for a bit of trouble
[00:32] <DanaG> I've had enough of nvidia.... next time I am going ATI for sure.
[00:32] <DanaG> And this next time will be this fall.
[00:32] <pheeror> intel produces nice gpu too (:
[00:32] <teamcobra> and I can vouch personally that the 780g chipset is a monster
[00:32] <DanaG> Monster?
[00:32] <DanaG> I just wish manufacturers wouldn't always pair AMD cpus with weak GPUs.
[00:33] <teamcobra> DanaG: plays crysis w/o any problems, same for stranglehold, 31337 fps in glxgears (not kidding) ;p
[00:33] <teamcobra> all on the onboard igp (3200hd I believe)
[00:33] <teamcobra> and not that glxgears is any performance metric
[00:33]  * DanaG thinks the "£€€T" is far cooler than "1337"
[00:34] <teamcobra> yeh, but it really got 31,336.7 fps, that's the funny part ;p
[00:35] <teamcobra> still, best igp I've ever seen. ever
[00:36] <DanaG> I'd love to get a laptop with the 3200 IGP plus a 3600 series discrete.
[00:36] <DanaG> I'd use the discrete when in Windows for games, and use the IGP when in Linux.
[00:36] <teamcobra> DanaG: msi is making some, not sure about the addon 3600
[00:37] <teamcobra> I'd like to see just how big the motherboards for the mobile chipset are..... a tablet/subnotebook would be _wicked_
[00:37] <DanaG> Oh yeah:
[00:38] <DanaG> http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=263085
[00:38] <teamcobra> oh wow, they're already out
[00:39] <teamcobra> not bad at all, wonder how well the touchscreen is supported
[00:40] <DanaG> http://www.tabletpcreview.com/default.asp?newsID=1199
[00:43] <DanaG> Screenshot of my current theme: http://picpaste.com/pics/screenshot-orange-nodoka.1213694702.png
[00:43] <teamcobra> pretty smooth
[00:43] <teamcobra> any of you guys into java dev?
[00:44] <teamcobra> http://ui.jquery.com/themeroller   <-- pretty smooth, unsure how well it works in other dev environments though
[00:45] <DanaG> I like how my theme is rather non-glossy.
[00:49] <teamcobra> wb
[00:51] <DanaG> Pidgin crashed.
[00:51] <DanaG> I was mucking around with the rimmer plugin.
[00:51] <DanaG> er, "gRIM"
[00:51] <DanaG> It rather mangles things on doing the last-line fadeout.
[00:51] <DanaG> It turned this: ♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡
[00:51] <DanaG> Into this: ♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡
[00:52] <DanaG> ... fading out.
[00:54] <DanaG> Odd: I can't run the ut2k4 demo in Hardy / Intrepid.
[00:55] <DanaG> ut2004-bin: ../../src/xcb_lock.c:77: _XGetXCBBuffer: Assertion `((int) ((xcb_req) - (dpy->request)) >= 0)' failed.
[00:58] <teamcobra> hrmm
[00:58]  * teamcobra has ut2k4 at home, always uses wine though (stupid dvd doesn't have linux installers and most of the time I'm on dialup ;p ;p)
[01:12] <Raptor45> i have a large number of packages which require libgail to be removed to update... is this just something which should be waited out?
[01:14] <DanaG> Take a look at changelogs; perhaps that'll give a hint.
[01:15] <Raptor45> ill do that
[01:18] <Raptor45> that helped thanks, libgtk says "use conflicts and replaces on the different libgail binaries since the library is in gtk now"
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[09:34] <tomasko> if everything worked in 8.04, at what point between the release of 8.04 and the release of 8.10 is it safe to begin updating?
[09:34] <tomasko> i upgraded to 8.04 from 7.10 roughly around the week before 8.04's official release
[09:35] <RAOF> tomasko: The simple answer is "once 8.10 is released".
[09:35] <tomasko> and the not-so-simple answer?
[09:35] <RAOF> Depends.
[09:36] <RAOF> On precisely what you mean by "safe" :)
[09:36] <RAOF> Intrepid is not guaranteed not to break until it's released.  Anywhere up to the release date is fair game.
[09:37] <tomasko> well what's so revolutionary about 8.10 that would cause, say file system damage or something major like that?
[09:37] <RAOF> It gets progressively less likely to break as the release date approaches, though.
[09:37] <tomasko> i don't care about stupid little gui settings being lost, but anything on cli not working would be devastating for me
[09:38] <RAOF> Right.  Well, it's not unheard of for Intrepid to stop booting; booting from a crypt-on-lvm setup has only just been fixed.
[09:38] <tomasko> yeah, true, but i'd like to see the outcome of the kde4 migration as soon as possible without resorting to downloading the kde4 packages and keeping them along side with my kde3 packages
[09:38] <tomasko> i don't have a very esoteric setup. i made sure all my hardware worked on linux _before_ i bought it. i don't have any lvm, raid, or any sort of crypt setup
[09:39] <RAOF> Then have a testing install?  It's unlikely (but not impossible!) that intrepid will break anything not on it's partition.
[09:40] <tomasko> just wtf goes on that makes it so completely unaccountable until october 2008?
[09:40] <tomasko> you're not rewriting the entire linux kernel from scratch for every release
[09:40] <tomasko> at least not the same with gnu tools to my knowledge either. most of it seems incremental with the exception of this kde4 business
[09:42] <RAOF> It's not so much unaccountable, just that things will unavoidably (or accidentally) break at certain points.  For example, there's been a new libc upload recently.  If that had some problem with it, _everything_ would break, since everything links to libc.
[09:42] <tomasko> are these security fixes or feature adds?
[09:43] <tomasko> because feature adds just seem like bloat at this point in something like libc
[09:43] <tomasko> i could be wrong though
[09:43] <RAOF> Neither, both.  libc development continues - faster, fewer bugs, fewer security holes.
[09:43] <RAOF> Plenty of bugs in libc :)
[09:44] <RAOF> Plently of bugs in Miro, too, and I can't reach their bugtracker :(
[09:45] <tomasko> neither, both?
[09:45] <RAOF> Well, it's bug fixes, feature improvements, security fixes.
[09:46] <RAOF> libc is in no way frozen; there's a new upstream release approximately every Ubuntu release.
[09:46] <tomasko> did you read andrew morton's interview on lwn btw?
[09:47] <RAOF> No.
[09:48] <tomasko> he suggested a bugfix kernel. it'd be nice to have something like that for some of these things -- perhaps for years at a time
[09:48] <tomasko> it's embarrassing to think that libc even has that many bugs
[09:49] <RAOF> Some of it is because the kernel changes, and so libc wants to follow.
[09:52] <tomasko> hey, by the way, if i have a partially downloaded PDF, and i try to view it in konqueror, could that corrupt the PDF?
[09:53] <tomasko> gmail's taking a while to download the whole PDF, so i'm not sure i'll be able to read the paper properly
[09:53] <RAOF> It shouldn't corrupt the pdf, no.  It doesn't have to :)
[09:54] <tomasko> good. that was my line of thinking, but konqueror, for whatever reason, decided to spawn a kate process instead of an internal kpdf instance and warned me not to open the binary format file
[09:54] <tomasko> i terminated kate, so hopefully nothing happened right? i mean... even if it went through, i just tried to open the file, not write contents to it
[09:55] <RAOF> Right.  Although it may have tried to open it for writing, which may have wigged things.  But, again, shouldn't have.
[10:05] <tomasko> is there a way to send out larger packets on an already established tcp connection?
[10:05] <tomasko> my feeling is that if i increase the size of the packets, the total number of packets transmitted will decrease, and the associated overhead costs will drop
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[16:35] <timing> this bug affects intrepid as well: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/209047
[16:35] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 209047 in linux "Sound did work in 2.6.24-5 but not in 2.6.24-7 till 2.6.24-16" [Undecided,Incomplete]
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[19:34] <ethana2> Are we still going to have the same number of alphas this go?
[19:35] <ethana2> or did they drop one?
[20:48] <SevenSeth> anyone can tell me why the version alpha 1 of ubuntu 8.10 was not released yet?
[20:49] <ethana2> well
[20:49] <ethana2> it's important that it work fairly well
[20:49] <ethana2> something must have come up
[20:49] <SevenSeth> canonical never missed up
[20:50] <ethana2> so you're as anxious as I am to try it?
[20:50] <SevenSeth> of course
[20:50] <SevenSeth> =)
[20:50] <ethana2> yeah
[20:50] <ethana2> I'm like
[20:50] <ethana2> a pre release ubuntu addict now
[20:50] <SevenSeth> lolol
[20:51] <SevenSeth> =)
[20:51] <ethana2> last time I only used it from alpha 3
[20:51] <ethana2> mainly for drivers
[20:51] <Laney> People were working on 8.04.1
[20:51] <ethana2> ohhh
[20:51] <ethana2> that's right
[20:52] <ethana2> do any OS'es play awesome music as you install them?
[20:52] <icanhas> I'm going to run alpha 1 on a production machine. It'll be awesome.
[20:52] <ethana2> heh, same
[20:52] <ethana2> not advised perhaps
[20:53] <ethana2> but you come here before running updates
[20:53] <ethana2> report every bug you find
[20:53] <icanhas> .... kidding obviously :)
[20:53] <ethana2> well though
[20:53] <ethana2> if you don't /use/ it
[20:53] <ethana2> you won't find the bugs
[20:53] <ethana2> and eventually everyone will use it
[20:53] <icanhas> Yeah, I'm comfortable running it dual boot on a production machine ;)
[20:53] <ethana2> so the people that know how to /handle/ bugs best get on it first
[20:53] <ethana2> you know?
[20:53] <icanhas> I'm great at finding bugs.
[20:53] <ethana2> yep
[20:54] <ethana2> me too, with all my crazy corner cases
[20:54] <icanhas> I was so plesently surprised with 8.04, almost works too well.
[20:54] <ethana2> then came libc6
[20:54] <icanhas> xD
[20:54] <ethana2> now I know how to chroot from a livecd
[20:55] <icanhas> lol
[20:55] <ethana2> it'd be a shame not to put that experience to good use
[20:55] <ethana2> so here I am
[20:55] <icanhas> Is there a way to install from a live cd, and move to your installed location without rebooting?
[20:55] <ethana2> uhh... that I don't know
[20:56] <icanhas> I'd imagine it'd involve a few interesting tactics.
[20:56] <ethana2> yeah
[20:56] <ethana2> unmounting /
[20:56] <ethana2> interesting may be an understatement
[20:56] <icanhas> true :D So, since I'm in complete oblivion.. new gnome/xorg in ibex right?
[20:56] <ethana2> as always
[20:56] <ethana2> but probably not /yet/
[20:57] <icanhas> 2.2 caused some funny compiz issues during hardy beta
[20:58] <ethana2> oh wait
[20:58] <ethana2> I'm going to be on an nvidia geforce 8400m gs
[20:58] <ethana2> is that going to be a royal pain while alpha testing?
[20:58] <icanhas> No not at all, unless there's a similar compositing issue
[20:58] <ethana2> I mean with drivers
[20:58] <ethana2> if we get a new X and/or kernel...
[20:58] <ethana2> which we will eventually
[20:59] <icanhas> I couldn't see a reason why. Maybe I'm just familiar enough with Xorg... I can imagine a work around for anything.
[20:59] <ethana2> gahh, dang nvidia and their closed drivers.
[20:59] <icanhas> ATI really isn't much better.
[20:59] <ethana2> WHAT?!
[20:59] <ethana2> you're kidding, right?
[20:59] <ethana2> they were worse
[20:59] <ethana2> now they open specs
[20:59] <ethana2> and their proprietary drivers don't suck as much
[20:59] <ethana2> crossfire support and everything
[21:00] <icanhas> I agree with you, but only because I'm more familiar with ATI
[21:00] <ethana2> same day cross-OS driver releases
[21:00] <icanhas> most nvidia fans will say ther opposite, and there are a lot of them
[21:00] <ethana2> whoa
[21:01] <icanhas> If I had a beer for every time I installed/reinstalled/compiled a version of fglrx for some poor schmo...
[21:01] <ethana2> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NjU0Mg
[21:01] <icanhas> is that really surprising to you?
[21:02] <ethana2> oh wait, that's just nouveau
[21:02] <icanhas> If you make a graphical map of FOSS projects, showing both size/importance of the project and actual productivity over the last 2 years, Xorg would be huge and short.
[21:02]  * icanhas can't wait for DRI2 tho
[21:03] <ethana2> I almost wish Linus got into X
[21:04] <ethana2> maybe that would spread him too thin
[21:04] <icanhas> X has so much potential... I think it must just be boring / difficult to work with, because there really aren't enough devs / useful devs
[21:04] <ethana2> it is horribly difficult
[21:04] <ethana2> the code is ugly as sin
[21:04] <icanhas> that's what i thought
[21:04] <ethana2> maybe it just needs a complete rewrite
[21:04] <icanhas> projects like compiz have jumped LEAPYEARS in a short period of time
[21:04] <ethana2> with kernel mode setting, DRI2, and gallium
[21:05] <ethana2> now would be a good time ;)
[21:05] <icanhas> yes now would be wonderful
[21:05] <ethana2> then there's MPX
[21:05] <ethana2> *sigh*
[21:05] <jtechidna> Things like Compiz, KWin and Plasma have been pushing X in directions it hadn't really been pushed before
[21:06] <icanhas> MPX would make my head explode... compiz / custom plugins + 2 wii remotes
[21:06] <icanhas> jtechidna: in all fairness, that's a very true statement
[21:06] <ethana2> yeah it is
[21:06]  * jtechidna hopes for the best X-wise
[21:06] <icanhas> what's the state of MPX right now?
[21:07] <ethana2> merged
[21:07] <ethana2> I think...
[21:07] <icanhas> with/to ?
[21:07] <ethana2> to master
[21:07] <icanhas> oh
[21:07] <ethana2> it's part of X now
[21:07] <icanhas> anyone working on it? :P
[21:07] <ethana2> of course
[21:08] <ethana2> frantically like as not
[21:08] <jtechidna> The real question is "are people working on allowing their apps to utilize it"
[21:08] <ethana2> yeah that'll be the bottleneck soon
[21:08] <ethana2> of course
[21:08] <icanhas> I disagree there
[21:08] <ethana2> can the X11 protocol handle everything it needs to?
[21:08] <icanhas> I could see OOo jumping on that... there's a project that moves fast when it has to
[21:08] <ethana2> it seems kinda old
[21:09] <ethana2> I've wondered the same of posix at times...
[21:09] <icanhas> Yeah.. what about the linux kernel? That's kinda old too..
[21:09]  * icanhas ducks
[21:09] <ethana2> but it changes
[21:09] <icanhas> true
[21:09] <ethana2> adapts constantly
[21:09] <ethana2> X11 and posix are frozen, no?
[21:10] <icanhas> I'm not very good at FOSS/Gnu debating. I probably just don't know enough xD
[21:10] <icanhas> i believe that's correct
[21:12] <icanhas> Where do I go to make an obvious suggestion for ibex? ccsm (or some form of it) really needs to be included with default install.
[21:13] <ethana2> www.brainstorm.ubuntu.com
[21:13] <ethana2> that idea is by no means new.
[21:13] <icanhas> that's too obvious
[21:13] <icanhas> I know, and the argument is, ubuntu is getting very bloated very fast
[21:14] <icanhas> which i agree with. I think going forward ubuntu really should have a "basic" install option, that by default leaves out a certain group of packages
[21:16] <ethana2> bloat is windows
[21:16] <ethana2> we have feature creep
[21:16] <ethana2> it's very different
[21:16] <ethana2> vista brings down hardware prices
[21:17] <ethana2> and we use the hardware properly
[21:17] <ethana2> it's like a symbiotic relationship
[21:17] <ethana2> or predator prey in the long run, whatever
[21:19] <icanhas> Heh, yeah, just helped a buddy clean up his vista machine.. had 15Gb of lost harddrive space taken up by useless million year old restore points and an entirely overkill 8Gb Hibernation section
[21:19] <icanhas> he's using the new free space to install ubuntu ;)
[21:39] <potty> whens intrepid 1 cumming out?
[21:45] <icanhas> potty: you have a potty mouth
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[21:46] <kernelmode> so whens alpha 1 getting releaseD?
[21:47] <icanhas> kernelmode: dunno, but it won't have kernel mode
[21:47] <kernelmode> umm the linux kernel supports kernel and user mode
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[21:51] <pottytheshitter> at least windows has a journalling filesystem that dosent suck like all linux filesystems
[21:51]  * icanhas glances at the sign on that wall that reads, "don't feed the trolls"
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[21:54] <jtechidna> I lol'd
[21:54] <ethana2> well, that dude may be interested in a certain court case
[21:54] <ethana2> ntfs is in court accusing XFS of rape
[21:54] <pottytheshitter>  I ask that the the ubuntu devs add ext4 for intrepid
[21:55] <pottytheshitter> where does it say NTFS is in court?
[21:55] <ethana2> nevermind
[21:55] <ethana2> bad joke
[21:55] <ethana2> there may be no way to make that kind of thing tasteful
[21:55]  * ethana2 gives up
[21:57] <ethana2> I was just told that apple hardware is losing quality
[21:57] <icanhas> Any reason why it's ok to have profainity in your nick?
[21:57] <ethana2> yarr, need to go to #ubuntu-offtopic for my chit chat
[21:57] <ethana2> no, it's not okay actually
[21:57] <ethana2> !ohmy
[21:57] <ubottu> Please watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family friendly.
[21:57] <icanhas> yeah, that's what i thought
=== pottytheshitter is now known as kernelmode
[21:58] <kernelmode> I am starting to lose patient with *buntus
[22:39] <timing> wouldn't it be nice that if you accidently switch to tty1 it shows a message on top: 'to go back to the graphical environment, hit alt+f7'
[22:39] <timing> i just happend to press ctrl+alt+f1
[22:39] <timing> i know how to switch back
[22:39] <timing> but others don't
[22:45] <Lunar_Lamp> Heh, I've never hit that by accident timing!
[22:48] <joaopinto> timing, CTRL - ALT - fn, is not something very easy to produce by accident
=== marko_ is now known as marko-_-
[23:08] <timing> it is, if you have alt+f1 for workspace 1 :-)
[23:09] <timing> i pressed it like 10 times in my life so far
=== evalles_ is now known as effie_jayx