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This posting is totally uncalled for in rec.scouting. The point has been raised and has been answered. Roger and I have clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue; specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of the Scout Oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight"). There is really nothing else to discuss. Trying to cloud the issue with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless because it's like comparing apples to oranges (i.e., people can't control their race but they can control their behavior). What else is there to possibly discuss on rec.scouting on this issue? Nobody, including BSA, is denying anybody the right to live and/or worship as they please or don't please, but it doesn't mean that BSA is the big bad wolf for adhering to the recognized, positive, religious and moral standards on which our society has been established and on which it should continue to be based.

alt.atheism

A human has greater control over his/her actions, than a predominately instictive tiger. A proper analogy would be: If you are thrown into a cage with a person and get mauled, do you blame that person? Yes. [ providing that that person was in a responsible frame of mind, eg not clinicaly insane, on PCB's, etc. ] --- "One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom", because of the love of their mom. It makes for more virile men." Bobby Mozumder ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu ) April 4, 1993

alt.atheism

FOR SALE: Paradise SVGA accelerator card -800x600x32768 -1240x1024x16 -up to 15 times faster than vga -manual, drivers -used for 5 months, perfect condition -WD chipset $120 OBO

misc.forsale

Benedikt Rosenau writes, with great authority: "Contradictory" is a property of language. If I correct this to THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST I will object to definitions as reality. If you then amend it to THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST then we've come to something which is plainly false. Failures in description are merely failures in description. (I'm not an objectivist, remember.)

alt.atheism

-> I saw an interesting product in NY Auto Show, and would like to hear -> your comments. -> -> MILITECH(tm) is yet another oil additive. But the demonstration of -> this product really impressive, if it didn't cheat. Well, I heard that Militech stuff works pretty good too.. One of my friends who races in SCCA sanctioned events and all that stuff got the Militech stuff early as a trial thing, and he put it in his CRX.. He says it worked great, but I didn't ask him for any details. -Erich erich.lim@yob.sccsi.com

rec.autos

Why should he have been any different "then"? Ozzy Osbourne, ex-singer and main character of the Black Sabbath of good ole days past, is and always was a devout catholic. Or so I've heard over on the alt.rock-n-roll.metal newsgroups, an' I figure those folks oughta know..

soc.religion.christian

Yes it is, as has been evidenced by the previous two stages of withdrawal from the area and by the reductions in troops. Currently the troops are kept at a level consistent with light and armored patrols. No permanent installations have been built in the area, nor are any planned. As to the prodigal "water question", you can continue to waste your time looking for non-existent proof, or you can accept the testimony of people here, some Lebanese, who have acknowledged that they know of no evidence for these allegations. It depends which of those territories you refer to. In general, settlers were moved into the territories because at the time, in the context of the situations, it seemed the logical move. This is not to say that views don't change or that mistakes are not made. Currently, I would say that the only "disputed territory" that does not appear to be temporary is that of Eastern and northern Jerusalem.

talk.politics.mideast

Is the answer as simple as that you dislike russians??? And where would canadian hockey be today without the europeans?? Dont say that the european influence on the league has been all bad for the game. I mean, look at the way you play these days. Less fights and more hockey. Imho, canadian hockey has had a positive curve of development since the 70's when the game was more brute than beauty...... Oh, look!! You don't like Finns either.... Too bad almost all of you northamericans originates from europe..... Hmmm... And what kind of a name is Rauser. Doesn't sound very "canadian" to me. ;-)

rec.sport.hockey

The IIIP has just been superseded by the 4M, which is the one I am using at work. The quality of the print is execellent, beating 300 dpi printers hands down. In Australia the price of the 4M is about comparable with that of the III-series, so HP are trying to get people to buy the new one !!!

comp.sys.mac.hardware

It has been done already! In the UK the Atari ST box was shipped with 360K disks in the first few years and then later 720K disks. In order to make life less complicated, many freebie disks on mags were double formatted like this. Side 0 of the disk had 360K on it and could be read by any ST. It also had a flip-side program. This would swap the sides around so that side 1 became side 0. --

sci.crypt

But waiiiiiit, isn't Nissan officially registering the car as far as government paperwork goes, Nissan Stanza Altima, to avoid costly and lengthy paperwork? I read this on the net a while ago, and someone actually may have said there's a little Stanza logo on the Altima somewhere. You *can* have it both ways :-) Spiros

rec.autos

This is the new Buffalo one, the second since he's been with the Sabres? I recall a price tag of over $700 just for the paint job on that mask, and a total price of almost $1500. Ouch.

rec.sport.hockey

The idea of the card is bull in and of its self, but I'm curious to know, do they plan on making it a requirement to *always* have it on you, or is it only going to be required to be *presented* when trying to ge medical aid? BTW, anybody planning on shaving Hillary's head to look for *666*? 8^) Later Dave, Days ^^^^^^^^ Goverment logic or just the Clintons?

talk.politics.guns

The recent rise of nostalgia in this group, combined with the incredible level of utter bullshit, has prompted me to comb through my archives and pull out some of "The Best of Alt.Atheism" for your reading pleasure. I'll post a couple of these a day unless group concensus demands that I stop, or I run out of good material. I haven't been particularly careful in the past about saving attributions. I think the following comes from John A. Johnson, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. This is probably the longest of my entire collection. ________________________________________________________ So that the Prophecy be Fulfilled * * * In considering the Christian religion, and judging it according to its claims, it is important to look at its claims at fulfilling earlier Jewish prophecy. The scribe Matthew is perhaps the most eager to draw out what he thinks are prophetic answers in the career of Jesus of Nazareth. As you will see, Matthew's main strategy is to take various Old Testament passages, often not even about the promised Messiah, and apply them to the circumstances in the New Testament. We must also bear in mind the question of the authenticity of the accounts. Since the gospels were written at least 35 years after Jesus was executed, we do not know how much happened exactly as stated. But, for purposes of analysis, we will take particular claims at face value. Immanuel: We begin, of course, at the beginning. (Mt 1.21-22): "[Mary] will bear a son, and you, Joseph, will name him 'Jesus' (which means G'd is salvation), for he will save his people from their sins." All this happened to fulfil what the lord had spoken by a prophet: [Isaiah 7.1-16]: In the days of Ahaz (c. 750 BCE), king of Judah, Rezin of Syria and Pekah of Israel made war on Jerusalem (capitol of Judah), but could not quite conquer it. When the house of David (i.e. Ahaz and his court in Judah) were told of this, ...its heart and the heart of its people shook... And, the lord G'd said to Isaiah, "go to meet with Ahaz..." ...And the lord spoke to Ahaz (through prophet Isaiah, naturally) saying, "Ask a sign of G'd your lord. It can be as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven." But, Ahaz said, "I won't ask; I will not put the lord to a test." Then (Isaiah) said, "Hear then, O house of David. Is it not enough for you to weary men, that you must weary my god too? Therefore, the lord himself will give you a sign: Behold, a young woman is with child and will bear a son, and name him "Immanuel," which means, "G'd is with us." He will eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil and choose good. For, before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose good, the land of the two kings you dread will have been deserted... Matthew homes in on just the sentence that is in italics. Further, he the Hebrew word "almah," (young woman), as specifically, "virgin." But, this is not a prophecy about the Messiah. It is not a prophecy about an event to happen 750 years later. It is not a prophecy about a virgin (bethulah) mother. In short, it not about Jesus. Matthew has made use of a verse out of context, and tries to make it fit the specific case of Mary. It should be noted that if we want to read the prophecy in a general manner, a very general one, it can be made to fit Mary. Mary, virgin or not, was indeed a young woman with child. Of course, the fit is shady and has problems. Jesus, while thought of by later Christians to be G'd walking among men, was never called by the name, Immanuel. If Christianity wished to claim this prophecy for Jesus, it becomes at best a cut-and-paste prophecy... a second class prophecy. Not too convincing. Egypt: After Jesus's birth in Bethlehem, Matthew tells about a quick (and elsewhere unmentioned) excursion to Egypt, as if he wishes to liken Jesus to Moses. This was done to escape an alleged infanticidal rampage of the king, Herod. [Mt 2.15] ...and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the lord had spoken: "Out of Egypt I have cal-led my son." What the lord really said was this. [Hosea 11.1] When Israel was a child, I loved him. And, out of Egypt I called my son. The more I called them (my people), the more they went from me; they kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and kept burning incense to idols. Matthew conveniently omits the rest of Hosea's oracle. But, it was indeed Israel that, once called out of Egypt, wanted to return. This is history. Jesus is certainly not being spoken of here. And, if we are to draw some kind of parallel here, we wind up with a Jesus that flees and resists G'd. Again, this prophecy is just not as convincing as Matthew probably had hoped. Rachel Weeps: While Jesus is off vacationing in Egypt, Matthew says that King Herod sought to kill him, and thus ordered the executions of all young male children. Matthew then writes, [Mt 2.17-18] By this, that which was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: "A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation-- Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more." The reference is to a passage in Jeremiah 31.15, referring to the carrying off of Israel into exile by Sargon (of Assyria) in 722 BCE. Rachel, the ancestor of the major tribes of Israel, Ephraim, and Manasseh, is said to weep for her descendants who are "no more." It is metaphorical, of course, since Rachel lived and dies before the Hebrews were even in the Egyptian exile. It is interesting to note that it was Leah, not Rachel, who was the ancestor of the Judeans (the land where Jesus and Bethlehem were). If anyone should do weeping for her "children," it is Leah. The only connexion that Rachel has with Bethlehem is that the legends have it that she was buried north of the city, "on the way to Ephrath, (Bethlehem)." As for Herod and his infanticide, it is rather unlikely that such an event actually occurred. One never knows, but the event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the Bible, nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time. Herod was particularly unliked in his reign, and many far less evil deeds of Herod were carefully recorded. This might be a prime example of how events were added to Jesus's life to enhance the message of the church's gospel. Because of the whole story's similarity to the tale of the infant Moses in Egypt, it is highly likely that it is a device set up by Matthew to add prophetic, yet artificial, approval of Jesus. It is not surprising that Matthew conveniently neglects to mention the rest of the Jeremiah quote. The "children" the prophet speaks of are not dead, but exiled in the Assyrian Empire. G'd comforts the weeping Rachel, saying that the children will be returned-- he will gather them back together. Of course, this would not suit Matthew's purpose, as the children he speaks of are dead for good. Again, the "prophecy" Matthew sets up is not even that, and to anyone who bothers to check it out, is not too convincing. The Nazarene: We do not even have to go to the next chapter to find another Matthean prophecy. After leaving Egypt, Joseph & wife take the infant Jesus to live in the city of Nazareth, [Mt 2.23] ...that what was spoken of by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene." First thing we notice is that Matthew does not mention the name of the prophet(s) this time. Second, we have to ask who "He" is. There are no Messianic prophecies speaking of a Nazarene. Worse, there are no prophecies, period, mentioning a Nazarene. Still worse, there are no Nazarenes mentioned in the Old Testament at all. In the book of Judges, an angel tells Samson's mother that she will, [Judges 13.5] "...conceive and bear a son. No razor shall tough his head, for he will be a Nazirite to his god from the day of his birth. He will deliver Israel from the hands of the Philistines." This is of course not a prophecy of Jesus, or the messiah of G'd. But, it is the best that can be found. Obviously, Matthew has begun to go overboard in cut-and-paste prophecies, in that he is simple making them up now. Bearing our Diseases: Jesus next goes around healing people of physical illnesses and disabilities. [Mt 8.17] This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, "He took our infirmities and bore our diseases." As expected, the verse quoted in Isaiah is quoted out of context, and a few words are skewed to fit the Christian scheme. We have, [Is 53.4] Surely he, [the suffering servant], has borne our sickness, and carried our pains. From a reading of the surrounding passages in Isaiah, we know that the prophet is speaking in present tense of the collective nation of Israel, Jehovah's chosen servant and people. He speaks to the Israelites suffering in exile, in the voice of the gentile nations that look upon it. This image is deeply ingrained in Jewish identity --an image of a chastised, yet cherished, Israel as the instrument of the nations' salvation by G'd. The verses speak of Israel taking on the sicknesses which are the literal and metaphorical manifestations of guilt and discipline. They do not speak of a "servant" going around and healing people. Notice that the servant in Isaiah takes on the sicknesses and pains of the nations (and individual Jews). Jesus, as we all know, did not take the diseases onto himself. The verses here in Isaiah are not a prophecy of something to come, but rather something that had already happened. While it is believed that Jesus took on the eternal punishment of hell, he did not bear the illnesses he healed. So, while someone might want to say that, figuratively, Jesus reenacted the deeds of Israel in his spiritual atonement, he has to admit that Matthew's parallel misses where he intended it to have its effect. Silent Messiah: Upon healing multitudes of commoners, it is said that Jesus ordered them to keep quiet, presumable so that he wouldn't arouse the attention of the local rulers. [Mt 12.15-21] This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah. "Behold my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved, with whom my soul is pleased. I will put my spirit on him, and he will announce justice to the Gentiles. He will not wrangle or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets. He will not break a bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick until he brings justice to victory, and the gentiles will hope in his name." The Isaiah passage quoted reads, [Is 42.1-4] Behold my servant whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit on him, and he will bring forth justice to the nations. We will not cry or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street. He will not break a bruised reed, or quench a smoldering wick. He will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not fail (burn dimly) or be discouraged (bruised) until he has established justice in the earth. And the coastlands await his law. You see, Matthew has conveniently left out part of the passage, because it does not suit the dealings of Jesus. Christians could never think of Jesus failing, never would the "light" of mankind burn dimly. But, the servant nation of Israel will indeed come to an end when its job is done. When the gentiles come to embrace G'd there will no longer be a chosen people, but rather all will be the children of G'd. Also, the ending phrase has been changed from the Judaic "...the coastlands await his law." to the Christologic, "the Gentiles will hope in his name." While the original proclaims the Torah law of Jehovah, the other rewrites it to fit its strange doctrine of "believing in the name." If one has any doubt the servant referred to is not Jesus, one has only to read the whole chapter, Isaiah 42, and hear about the beloved but blind and imperfect servant, "a people robbed and plundered..." So, we see that when Matthew's attempt at "prophecy" is examined, it crumbles. Three Days and Three Nights: Now we come upon a prophecy supposedly uttered by the very mouth of the god Jesus himself. He speaks of his crucifixion and resurrection. [Mt 12.40] For as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. Before any further discussion can occur, it is necessary to know how the Jews understood days. As far as day names went, each was 24 hours long, lasting from sunset 6pm to the following sunset 6pm. What was referred to as a "day" was the period of light from 6am to the ending sunset at 6pm. Thus, according to our time scale, a sabbath day began at 6pm Friday evening, and lasted until 6pm saturday evening. This is why the Jews celebrate their sabbath on the daylight portion of Saturdays, instead of Sundays. (It seems like a real miracle that Christians didn't forget that Saturday was indeed the seventh and last day of the week!) Thus, when days and nights are referred to together, 12 hour daylight portions and 12 hour night periods are being spoken of. Thus, Jesus says that he will be in the grave, or in hell, or otherwise unresurrected for three days and three nights. As the good book tells us, Jesus was crucified on the "ninth hour," which is 3pm, Friday afternoon. He then was put into the grave sometime after that. Then, Jesus left the grave, "rose," before dawn of what we call Sunday (The dawn after the sabbath was over). What this means is that Jesus was, using our time for clarity, in the grave from 6pm Friday night to some time before 6am Sunday morning. We could also add a little time before 6pm Friday, since the bible is not specific here. What this means using Jewish time is that he was in the grave for one day, two nights, and possibly a couple of hours of one day. Certainly this is a problem for Jesus prediction. There is absolutely no way we are even able to have his death involve three days and three nights --even using modern time measurements. We then are led to suspect that this error is another one of Matthew's little mistakes, and that the gospel writer put false words into his god's mouth. And no matter who made the prediction, it is more than unconvincing... it is counter-convincing. Hearing & Understanding: Jesus tool on a habit of speaking to his vast audiences in parables-- stories in which a deeper meaning could be found, if you were already one of the elect, those chosen to understand the message of Jesus. He reasons that those who can understand the parables are the ones he wants. If the people cannot understand them, there is no need to bother with them, since they will not accept the "plain" message any better. Matthew says, [Mt 13.14-16] With them [the audience] indeed in fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says, "You will indeed hear but never understand; and you will indeed see, but never perceive. Because this people's heart has grown dull, their ears are heavy of hearing, and they have shut their eyes so the they would not perceive with them, her with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them." The original Isaiah passages are part of his earlier works, his call to the ministry. This is in 740 BCE, when Israel is flourishing, right before it falls under the authority of Assyria. Isaiah sees the good times ending, and also a vision from G'd, calling him to bring reform to Israel and Judah. [Is 6.9-13] And G'd said, "Go, and say to this people, `Hear and hear, but do not understand; see and see, but do not perceive.' Make the heart of this people fat, make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes, so they will not see with their eyes, or hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." Then Isaiah said, "How long, lord?" And he said, "Until the cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the land is utterly desolate, and the G'ds take men far away, and forsaken places are many in the land. And though a tenth will remain in it, it will be burned again, like a terebinth or an oak whose stump still stands when the tree is felled." The holy seed is its stump. Here we see that it is really G'd who causes the people of Israel to stop listening to the prophet's warnings, but reaffirms the promise made to Solomon's (and David's) seed/lineage. If you read the rest of Isaiah, you find that this is done to fulfil the plan of G'd to use Israel as a servant, a light to the nations. (Look at Isaiah 42.18-25, 48.20, 49.3) We see that Matthew has cut-and-pasted just a little portion of Isaiah's verse, to suit his own gospel needs. More than that, he has altered the words, to make it fit the people who didn't understand Jesus's stories. And, as we see, Isaiah's verses are not prophecies, but rather commands from G'd to him, in the present. Once again, Matthew's prophecy falls flat on its face. Matthew tries again to make Jesus's parables look like they have the prophetic approval. [Mt 13.35] ...he said nothing to them without a parable. This was to fulfil what was spoken of by the prophet, "I will open my mouth to them in parables. I will utter that which has been hidden since the foundation of the world." Matthew really botches up here. He attempts to quote not from a prophet, but from the Psalms. [Ps 78.2-4] I will open my mouth in parable. I will utter dark sayings of old, things that we all have heard and known, things that our fathers have told us. We will not hide them from their children, but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the lord... As was pointed out, the verses in the Psalms do not really come from a prophet. You might also want to know that earlier copies of Matthew's gospel even inserted Isaiah's name as this prophet. Apparently, later scribes caught the error and tried to cover some of it up. Perhaps the most significant part of this is that, once again, Matthew has altered the Old Testament Scriptures. As Jesus has said earlier, he speaks in parables so that some will not understand them. The parables in the Psalms are not to be hidden. Further, they speak of things "known, that our fathers have told us." Jesus deals with things "hidden since the foundation of the world." Indeed Jesus dealt in a lot of secrecy and confusion. This is in direct opposition to the parables in the Psalms. No wonder Matthew had to rewrite them! And still once again, Matthew's artificial prophecies fall flat on their face. But, Christians rarely look at this. Matthew's prophecies aren't the only things about Christianity that are beginning to look bad. Excuses of Little Faith: In Mt. 17.14-21, we see that the disciples are able to go around casting out demons, except in one case. Not knowing what epilepsy was, the people thought those with the disease were possesed with demons. It is no wonder that the disciples were unable to "dispossess" the epileptic. But, Jesus, perhaps no more enlightened than they, is reported to have rebuked them, saying they didn't have enough faith. This seems strange. Why was this demon special? It seems that either a true believer has faith or he does not. Apparently, enough faith will allow someone to move mountains. Of course, you will find no one, these days that can move real mountains. No one parts seas. The only miracles the Charismatics can speak of are those rumoured to happen on trips to Mexico or some faraway place. Major miracles are making some old woman's arthritis feel better on Sunday morning T.V. And the gods, including Jesus, are always shrouded in ancient lore and writings, protected from the skeptics in their sacred pasts. They are either dead, sleeping, or hiding in heaven, with people rumouring about their imminent return and their great miracles of days long gone. Yet, life goes on. Tales of mystics, stories of miracles-- all in a distant time or a distant place. Gods used to reveal themselves to men in the old days, Jehovah too. But, now they are silent. All the theologians give are various excuses as to why we don't get to see God anymore. We're too lazy; we're not zealous enough; we're sinful; it's just his "plan"; we put too many of our own demands on G'd's appearance; if we had the right faith, if we were willing to meet G'd on his terms... Yet, even the most pious of men have not seen G'd. You, dear reader, have not seen G'd. Not literally, you know that to be true. (I know that's presumptuous and bold. But, searching your heart, you know what I mean.) All that we've seen religions do is make people feel good and content about not seeing G'd. They say our little faith does not merit us to see G'd. Sometimes, they say, "See the love in these people you worship with... see the lives of people change... that is seeing G'd." Thus people get lulled to sleep, satisfied with turning G'd into the everyday sights. But, that is not seeing G'd as I am speaking of... it is not seeing G'd the way people used to see. What we see in the world that is good, is the compassion of human hearts, the love given and taken by men and women, the forgiveness practised by Christian & Atheist alike, beauty created by the mind of man. These are the things that are done; these are what we see. But, it is said this is so only because everybody has little faith.  Jesus Rides on an Ass: Shortly after accepting the role of the Jewish messiah king, Jesus requests a donkey be brought in for him to ride into Jerusalem. [Mt 21.5] This took place to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell the daughter of Zion, "Behold, your king is coming to you, humble, mounted on an ass, and on a ass-colt." Of course, the passage quoted from Zechariah 9.9 reads a little differently. Lo, your king comes to you; he is triumphant and victorious, humble, and riding on an ass, on an ass- colt... he will command peace to the nations. There isn't all that much difference here, except that Zechariah only involves one animal --an ass-colt-- while Matthew reads the poetic wording slightly differently. Thus, he has Jesus call for both a colt and an adult ass. From Matthew's version, we get a comical picture of the divine Christ sweating it to straddle two donkeys. This could inevitably lead to a theological, proctological dilemma! We find that in the account written earlier by St. Mark, only the colt was called for and brought to Jesus. This indeed fits the verses of Zechariah properly, and shows us that in Matthew attempt to use prophetic verses, he has bungled. Now, excluding many respectable Christians I have met, I have noticed that while Christ is thought to have ridden on asses, the situation is often reversed nowadays... Then, entering the Jerusalem temple, the priests were angered at people and youngsters calling Jesus the messiah. But, Jesus replied as we might expect Matthew to have done, [Mt 21.16] Haven't you read? `Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise.' It is more likely that Matthew made this response up since Jesus was never one to point out such little "prophetic" things AND since, as we might expect, the quote is in error, which seems to fit Matthew's track record quite well. We might ask Jesus or Matthew, "Haven't you read?" for the source reads, [Psalms 8.1-2] O YaHWeH our lord, how majestic is your name in the whole world! You, whose glory is chanted above the heavens by babes and infants, you have founded a bulwark against your foes to still the enemy and the avenger. The passages hardly need comment. There is no "perfect praise" spoken of in the psalm, and what praise is there is given to G'd, not his messiah king, and not Jesus. As mentioned, it seems to be just one more case of Matthew's pen making up convenient prophetic scripture. YHVH said to my lord...: Jesus is said to have asked from whom the promised Jewish messiah-king is to be descended. The Jews agree-- it is king David. But, then Jesus counters by quoting Psalms 110, "The LORD said to my Lord, sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet." Taken at face value, Jesus is denying the necessity of Davidic descent. One assumes he is in opposition to their answer. Of course, the Christian answer is that he agrees, but is trying to make some hidden point, to reveal some mystery about the divine nature of the messiah-king. It's tempting to believe this, if one is a Christian and not interested in matters of investigation. But, there are problems. In Jesus's time, the psalm was thought to be about the messiah. And, it is easy to see why David might refer to the messiah as his superior. We need only look at the scriptures about the messiah to see that he is expected to be a great king, bringing the Jews to times even better than those under David's rule. Of course, the Jews listening had no good answer, and the passage could indeed refer to a divine messiah, such as the Christians worship. The problem lies in the meaning of this psalm, an error that apparently several Jews of Jesus's time had also made. One must remember that there were various factions among the Jews, often as a result of different expectations of the messiah-king. Jesus was apparently one of these adventists, like his audience, who thought the messiah's advent was imminent, and who interpreted Psalms 110, among others, as being messianic. What is the problem, then? Psalm 110 literally reads, YHVH's utterance to my lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool." YHVH sends forth your mighty scepter from Zion. Rule in the midst of your foes! Your people will offer themselves freely on the day you lead your host on the holy mountains. "You are a priest of the order of Melchizedek forever." The word "lord" is often mistakenly capitalised by Christian bibles to denote divinity in this lord. But, in the Hebrew, the word is "adoni," and no capitalisation exists. Adoni simply means "lord," a generic term as we would use it. It is used often in the scriptures to refer to kings and to G'd. It is merely an address of respect. There is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word refers either to divinity or to the messiah-king. That this is supposed to be written by David is not certain. The title of the psalm translates to either "a psalm of David," or "a psalm about David." It seems fitting to assume it to be written by a court poet, about David's covenant and endorsement from G'd. If the psalm had been written by David, it is unlikely that he would be talking about the messiah. The idea of a perfect king, descended from David, was not present in David's age. We have extensive tales of David's doings and sayings-- none of which include any praises of a messiah. Many of the psalms show evidence of being written long after David was dead, in times of the exile when G'd had put his show of favour for David's kingdom on hold. The description in the psalm fit David very well. David was promised by G'd a rise to power, victory over his enemies, successful judgement among the nations he conquered. He achieved the priesthood common to Melchizedek in being a righteous king, enabled to bless the people. It all fits. We do not have to blame this problem on Matthew alone, though. Here, there is not artificial prophecy alluded to, though his use of the scripture is rather questionable. Still, this event is common to the other gospels too. So, we let Matthew off a little more easily this time. It is interesting to note, though, how Matthew dresses up the event. The earlier gospel of Mark tells the tale with Jesus simply speaking to a crowd. Matthew has the Pharisees, who became the religious competition of an infant Christianity, be the target of Jesus's question. As we might expect, Matthew writes that the event ends up by embarrassing the Pharisees. Such power is the pen. Moses & Jesus, Had it Together All Along...: We leave the gospel story of Matthew momentarily to see a pseudo-prophecy in John's gospel. The gospel story of John deserves special treatment, because it seems to be so far removed from the real events of Jesus's career as told by even Matthew. But, for the moment, we will just look at one verse. The early church leaders founded a religion on the Jewish hopes of a messiah king, and on an artificial extension of the original promises made by G'd. When constructing the history of Abraham, Moses wrote of a promise of land and nationhood to the Jewish people. While this was accomplished eventually, under the rule of king David, the Christians who came along later decided that they would claim the fulfillment of the promise. But, to do so, they expanded on the promise, preaching about a heavenly kingdom. [John 8.56] (J.C. speaking) Your father, Abraham, rejoiced to see My day. He say it and was glad. It would be nice to tie in approval for Jesus from Abraham, but, Abraham knew nothing of Jesus or a messiah, or anything Christian. I have tried, and failed to find any event in the Old Testament which corresponds to John's little prophecy. It is par for the course to see St. John making up Old Testament backings, just like his forerunner Matthew. Many Christians know that their faith has many of its foundations in such fraud, and it is surprising they still cling to it. The Potter's Field: We are told that Jesus was betrayed while in Jerusalem by one of his followers, Judas Iscariot. Matthew writes, [Mt 27.5-10] And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, [Judas] departed... But, the chief priests, taking the silver, said, "It isn't lawful for us to put it in the treasury, since it is blood money." So they... bought a potter's field with it to bury strangers in... Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter's field, as the lord directed me." This prophecy is an utterly gross bastardisation of Old Testament Scripture. First, Matthew has made a mistake regarding the name of the prophet. It is Zechariah who utters the verses which Matthew makes use of. [Zech. 11.12-13] ...And they weighed out my wages, thirty shekels of silver. Then YHVH said to me, "Cast them to the treasury," --the lordly price at which I was paid off by them. So I took the thirty shekels of silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of YHVH. First of all, the verses of Zechariah do not deal with a betrayer of the messiah, or of G'd. The deal with a shepherd, most likely a priest, chosen to serve a function of presiding over the people shortly before G'd would send Judah and Israel into conflict with one another. The word, "treasury," had been replaced by the King James Scholars with "to the potter," precisely because this made Matthew's quote fit better. But, this is a blatant error. The correct translation of the Hebrew is indeed "treasury," which also makes perfect sense in Zechariah's context, whereas "potter's field" is totally unrelated. Whether the mistranslation was intentional or not seems to be beyond speculation. However, given Matthew's track record, one finds it hard to resist the notion of intentional dishonesty. Of course, Matthew would have ample reason for altering the text. The thirty pieces of silver match Judas's situation, and if as most Christians seem to be, the reader is willing to disregard the contextual incongruity, Matthew might have another prophecy to toss around. However, the correct translation of Zechariah directly contradicts the situation with Judas and the high priests. The high priests would not put the money in the treasury. The worthless shepherd of Zechariah does exactly the opposite! Of course, to the average Thursday-Night Bible student, the "prophecy" as presented by Matthew would be taken at New Testament face value. To those, Matthew's work is convincing enough. Wine, Vinegar, & Casting Lots: Then, Jesus is led away to be crucified. [Mt 27.34-35] ...they gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it. And, when they had crucified him, they divided his garments among them by casting lots: that it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet, "They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots." First of all, the vinegar offered to Jesus is actually common sour wine, of the type that Roman soldiers drank regularly. We find that right before Jesus dies, the soldiers themselves give him some to drink --not polluted with gall. [Jn 19.28-30] Jesus... said, "I thirst." A bowl of vinegar stood there, so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. When he had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished;" But, Matthew seems to be drawing on, not a passage from the prophets, but one from the Psalms. [Ps 69.20-28] I looked for pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me poison for food (lit. they put gall in my meat), and for my thirst, they gave me vinegar to drink... Add to them punishment upon punishment, may they have no acquittal from thee. Let them be blotted out of the Book of the Living. Of course, the sour wine offered to Jesus is done at his request of drink. This does indeed seem to be a show of pity. The psalm quoted is about David and his political and military enemies. It is not about the messiah or Jesus. It is then not surprising that we run into further problem when we see that the "Jesus" in the psalm asks G'd for the damnation of the "crucifiers," whereas the Jesus of the gospels says, [Lk 23.34] Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, the don't know what they do!" Further, Matthew misses with his attempt to create prophecy by having gall (a bitter substance) put into Jesus's drink, not his meat, as the psalm stipulates. With the "prophecy" of the vinegar faulty, we naturally ask, "What of the casting of lots?" This brings up the 22nd Psalm, which deserves discussion all by itself. Suffice it now to say that the fact that Jesus's clothes were divided as told is no great thing. It turns out that this happened often to any felon in those days. As we will soon see, it is perhaps the least erroneous passage of the psalm when applied to Jesus. It does indeed bring up the interesting question as to the quality of Jesus's clothes. For a man so removed from worldly possessions, his ownership of clothes worthy of casting lots raises some suspicions. The 22nd Psalm: This psalm is attributed to David, as a lament of his condition under the attack of his enemies. It becomes a song of praise to YHVH and of hope. Taken out of context, parts of it seem to fit the plight of Jesus at the crucifixion quite well. We will examine the primary passages. Verse 1-2: My god, my god! why have you forsaken me?! Why are you so far from helping me, far from the words of my groaning? Oh, my god, I cry by day, but you don't answer, and by night, but find no rest. Jesus is said to have cried the first sentence while on the cross. This suggests that the whole psalm is really about Jesus, rather than king David. Of course, the rest of the first stanza does not fit as nicely to Jesus or his execution. Jesus is not pictured as complaining about the whole ordeal, he is supposed to be like "the lamb led mute before its shearers." Indeed, Jesus doesn't do much groaning, even when on the cross. He certainly does not cry by both day and night on the cross. 6-8: But, I am a worm, and no man-- scorned by men... All who see me mock at me. They make faces and wag their heads; "He committed his cause to YHVH. So let him deliver him... for he delights in him." This seems to fit Jesus's execution pretty well, with the exception of the Holy messiah being called a worm. 12-13: Many bulls encompass me... they open their mouths widely at me like a ravening and roaring lion. 16-18: Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of evildoers encir-cle me, they have pierced my hands and feet. I can see all my bones... They divide my garments among them, and cast lost for my raiment. 19-21: But you, YHVH, be not far away! ...Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog! Save me from the mouth of the lion, and my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild bull! It would seem quite convincing, and I'm sure the early Christian fathers who wrote of this prophecy thought so too. Unfortunately, this prophecy has a fatal flaw. The words "have pierced" really do not exist in the psalm. The correct Hebrew translation is, 16: Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of evildoers encircles me, like the lion, they are at my hands and feet... In Hebrew the phrase "like the lion" and a very rare verb form which can mean "pierced" differ by one phonetic character. The word in the Hebrew text is literally, "like the lion" (ka'ari), which makes sense in the context, and even further fits the animal imagery employed by the psalm writer. It is convenience that would urge a Christian to change the word to "ka'aru." But, to add the needed (yet artificial) weight to the "prophecy" this is just what the Christian translators have chosen to do. While the correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring to Jesus, its absence does not say much for the honesty of the translators. Apart from the erroneous verse 16, the psalm does not lend itself to Jesus so easily. Verse 20 speaks of the sufferer being saved from a sword rather than a cross. This naturally fits the psalm's true subject, king David. As a side note, we now know that crucifixions did not pierce the hands, the palms, but rather the forearms. This doesn't say much in favour of the traditional thought of a resurrected Jesus showing his disciples the scars on his palms. But then, facts aren't bound by our religious beliefs. Matthew escapes culpability this time, as he does not attempt to draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord Jesus. But the psalm, like many others, was on the minds of all the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and interpretations of Jesus's life and death. How much these scriptures may have contributed to what actually got written down is a question that has serious repercussions for Christian theology. It is easy to see, for those who are not faithful fundamentalists, how some of the events in the New Testament might have been "enhanced" by scribes such as the eager Matthew. But, it does less to speculate than to simply investigate scriptural matters and prophetic claims. So far, this has not said good things for St. Matthew. The reference to the piercing looks a lot like Jesus's crucifixion. John's gospel recount, written about 70 years after the fact, tells us at Jesus's execution, [Jn 19.34,37] But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and out came blood and water... these things took place that Scripture be fulfilled... "The will look on him whom they've pierced." Of course, this is built on a passage taken blatantly out of context. Prophet Zechariah tells us how much of the nation of Israel will split off from Jerusalem and Judah and go to war with them. [Zc 12.7-10] And YHVH will give victory to Judah... And on that day, I will seek to destroy the nations that come against Jerusalem (in Judah). And I will pour a spirit of compassion and supplication... on Jerusalem so that when they look on him who they have pierced, they will mourn, and weep bitterly over him like you weep over a firstborn child. John's attempt to make up prophecy is perhaps weaker that Matthew's attempts. Matthew, at least, usually excontexts more than just one passage. John's errors are grossly obvious and blatant here. It does not speak well for any of the gospel writers, as it helps to show how the prophetic aspects of their religion were founded.  Reckoned with Transgressors: After his arrest, Jesus is quickly executed for claiming the Jewish kingship, messiahship. According to one version of the gospel tale, Jesus gets executed along with two thieves. [Mk 15.27] And with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right, one on his left. And so the scripture was fulfilled which says, "He was reckoned with the transgressors." Here, Mark is trying to link Jesus to a passage in Isaiah 53, about the servant nation of Israel. The passage is not about the messiah, for if one reads the whole chapter of Isaiah 53, and its surrounding chapters, one sees that the servant is a nation. The verses are also about what this servant has gone through in the past, not a prediction of what is to come, in any event. The servant is thought of as a criminal. This also happens to fit the description of Jesus. Had the passage really been about the messiah, it still is not at all clear why executing Jesus between two thieves would fulfill the "prophecy" in Isaiah. Jesus would more fittingly fulfill it with his whole ministry. He was considered a blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his career. Locking onto a single event is a rather poor way to steal prophecy, at least in this case, as we see that Mark could have had made a better analogy with general comparisons. Mark goes on to tell us how "those who were crucified with [Jesus] also reviled him." [15.32] This is to be expected from a couple of robbers. Of course in his later recount, St. Luke decides to change some things. Luke tells us, [Lk 23.39-43] And one of the criminals who was hanged with him railed, "Aren't you the messiah?! Save yourself, and us!" This certainly fits with Mark's recount, which tells how the people who crucified Jesus said, "Save yourself!" and that the robbers did the same. But then Luke goes on, But the other [criminal] rebuked [the first] saying, "Don't you fear G'd, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we, indeed justly so, for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds. But, this man has done nothing wrong. And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom." And Jesus answered, "Verily I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." Now, this little dialogue seems highly contrived. It stretches the imagination a bit to see this picture of one ruffian rebuking his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech. We have a rather strange picture of a criminal lamenting over the goodness of his punishment and the justness of his suffering. Such a man, apparently noble and of principle, doesn't seem likely to have been a robber. We wonder at the amount of theatrics created by Luke. Of course, Luke's recount also disagrees with Mark's. Luke has only one criminal revile Jesus, not both. It is easy enough to discount the discrepancy because the account was made up, but those who wish to believe it is all part of the error free words of G'd do not have this avenue open. This is yet another example of a writer trying to take an Old Testament passage and expand it and reinterpret it to suit his theology. In this case, the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems, as we have seen. The End of the World-- Mt. 24: Now comes perhaps one of the most extraordinary and embarrassing passages in the New Testament. It is found in all three of the synoptic gospel stories, and casts some of the most unfavourable doubt on the whole theory of Christianity. Jesus mentions the destruction of the Jewish temples and buildings, and his disciples ask him about this, and about the end of the world which he has been warning about. The disciples: Tell us, when will this [the temple's destruction] be, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the close of the age? Jesus: Take care that no one leads you astray, for many will come in my name, saying, "I am the christ." ...you will hear of wars and rumours of wars... for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For, nation will rise against nation... all this is but the beginning of the birthpangs. They will deliver you up... put you to death, and false prophets will arise and lead many astray. ...But he who endures to the end will be saved. This gospel will be preached throughout the whole world, a testimony to the nations, and then the end will come. So, when you see the desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, ...let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened... the stars will fall from heaven... then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and see the Son of Man coming... and he will send out his angels... and gather his elect... Learn the lesson of the fig tree: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, at the very gate. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place... But, of the day and hour, no one knows; not the angels, not the Son, but only the Father... Therefore, you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. From this, it is clear that Jesus thought the world would in within the lifetimes of at least some of his disciples. He tells them that although he doesn't know the exact day or hour, that it will come, and thus they must be ready. Theologians have wet their pants in panic to find some way out of this Holy Error. But, unfortunately, Jesus made himself to explicit. He told his disciples that their generation would still be around at the End, and that they in particular should prepare for it, prepare to be swept away. There have been some who resorted to removing the inerrant nature of the Bible, and said that the phrase, "this generation shall not pass away..." really means "this race of people will not pass away..." Of course, the word for generation is used many times to refer to exactly that, the generation of the disciples. It is an interesting notion that when God decided to learn Greek, he didn't learn it well enough to make himself clear. But. it is quite obvious from the rest of the dialogue that the disciples (at least some of them) are supposed to live to the End of the World. The charge of mistranslation is completely blown away by looking at the Apostles' responses. It becomes abundantly clear from Rev. 22.7, 1 Peter 4.7, 1 John 2.18, and Rev. 22.20, that Jesus meant exactly what he said. The End was very near. For 2,000 years, Christians have rationalised this 24th chapter of Matthew, or ignored its meaning altogether. For 2,000 years, they have waited for their executed leader to come back, hearing of wars, and rumours of wars, sure that He is coming soon. Surely He must be. All we must do is wait. Can you imagine how tired He must be, sitting around up there, being holy, waiting for just the right moment to spring? So, shortly after his crucifixion, Jesus of Nazareth, (Joshua-ben-Joseph), died. It is said that after three days, or three days and three nights, or three periods of time, or three eternal seconds --or three of whatever they can decide makes for less trouble-- he was seen again, resurrected, glowing with divine radiance. Then the Saviour decided it wasn't in the best interests of his new religion to stick around, and therefore disappeared from sight into heaven. So the story goes, anyway. As has been seen, there were many things attributed to Jesus when people got around to writing the gospel stories down. To them, Jesus was the fulfiller of all prophecy and scripture. We have seen, though, that this matter is quite shaky. But, throughout Church history, Christians have held fast to faith, in simple belief. What doctrinal objections could not be solved with argumentation or brute force, faith and forgetfulness kept away from question. To question and investigate has never been the easiest way to treat matters. Thus for 2,000 years, the prophecies cited in the New Testament have gone on largely accepted. Things may well continue that way for some time. Pausing a moment to consider the way the doctrines of Christianity have been accepted and used (properly or improperly) to support wars and persecution, I suppose there is one prophecy of which Christianity can securely keep hold.

alt.atheism

Ever hear about cutting off the electricity? That was done. How effective is an electric stove then?

talk.politics.guns

: > Not to pick on Mr. May in particular, of course, but isn't this : >kind of the domino theory? When one little country falls, its neighbor : >will surely follow, and before you know it, we're all mining salt : >in Siberia for not turning in our Captain Crunch Secret Decoder Rings. : : But, for all the wrongness of our attempt to correct it (VietNam, et. al.), : the domino theory wasn't disproved at all. Ironically, the domino theory in fact *was* a reasonable metaphor for the collapse of communism, from the liberalizations in Poland and Hungary to the border crossings in the summer of '89 to the fall of the Wall later that year....and then to the ultimate collapse of the USSR. -Tim May

sci.crypt

Which sort of loans and what have you heard exactly?

alt.atheism

I've been using the Build59 drivers on a GW2K 4DX2-66V for several weeks with no problems. I'm running Windows in 1024x758 and all software I've run has worked fine. This includes many games and the CD-based multi-media encyclopedia, on which the full-motion video works fine. I'd recommend you give them a try. -- John

comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware

As I've mentioned in the rules posting, I will be out of town until the day before the entry deadline, so I won't be able to respond to your messages until April 18. I would be grateful if someone could repost the rules and instructions for the playoff pool sometime next week, for the benefit of those who missed the first two postings. Thanks. -- Andrew Scott | andrew@idacom.hp.com HP IDACOM Telecom Operation | (403) 462-0666 ext. 253

rec.sport.hockey

Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violatins in Azerbaijan #009 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ | | | There were about six burned people in there, and the small | | corpse of a burned child. It was gruesome. I suffered a | | tremendous shock. There were about ten people there, but the | | doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being | | taken to Baku. There was a woman's corpse there too, she had | | been . . . well, there was part of a body there . . . a | | hacked-off part of a woman's body. It was something terrible. | | | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ DEPOSITION OF ROMAN ALEKSANDROVICH GAMBARIAN Born 1954 Senior Engineer Sumgait Automotive Transport Production Association Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 40 Microdistrict No. 3 Sumgait [Azerbaijan] What happened in Sumgait was a great tragedy, an awful tragedy for us, the Armenian people, and for all of mankind. A genocide of Armenians took place during peacetime. And it was a great tragedy for me personally, because I lost my father in those days. He was still young. Born in 1926. On that day, February 28, we were at home. Of course we had heard that there was unrest in town, my younger brother Aleksandr had told us about it. But we didn't think . . . we thought that everything would happen outdoors, that they wouldn't go into people's apartments. About five o'clock we saw a large crowd near the Kosmos movie theater in our microdistrict. We were sitting at home watching television. We go out on the balcony and see the crowd pour into Mir Street. This is right near downtown, next to the airline ticket office, our house is right nearby. That day there was a group of policeman with shields there. They threw rocks at those policemen. Then they moved off in the direction of our building. They burned a motorcycle in our courtyard and started shouting for Armenians to come out of the building. We switched off the light. As it turns out, their signal was just the opposite: to turn on the light. That meant that it was an Azerbaijani home. We, of course, didn't know and thought that if they saw lights on they would come to our apartment. Suddenly there's pounding on the door. We go to the door, all four of us: there were four of us in the apartment. Father, Mother, my younger brother Aleksandr, and I. He was born in 1959. My father was a veteran of World War II and had fought in China and in the Soviet Far East; he was a pilot. We went to the door and they started pounding on it harder, breaking it down with axes. We start to talk to them in Azerbaijani, "What's going on? What's happened?" They say, "Armenians, get out of here!" We don't open the door, we say, "If we have to leave, we'll leave, we'll leave tomorrow." They say, "No, leave now, get out of here, Armenian dogs, get out of here!" By now they've broken the door both on the lock and the hinge sides. We hold them off as best we can, my father and I on one side, and my mother and brother on the other. We had prepared ourselves: we had several hammers and an axe in the apartment, and grabbed what we could find to defend ourselves. They broke in the door and when the door gave way, we held it for another half-hour. No neighbors, no police and no one from the city government came to our aid the whole time. We held the door. They started to smash the door on the lock side, first with an axe, and then with a crowbar. When the door gave way--they tore it off its hinges--Sasha hit one of them with the axe. The axe flew out of his hands. They also had axes, crowbars, pipes, and special rods made from armature shafts. One of them hit my father in the head. The pressure from the mob was immense. When we retreated into the room, one of them hit my mother, too, in the left part of her face. My brother Sasha and I fought back, of course. Sasha is quite strong and hot-tempered, he was the judo champion of Sumgait. We had hammers in our hands, and we injured several of the bandits--in the heads and in the eyes, all that went on. But they, the injured ones, fell back, and others came to take their places, there were many of them. The door fell down at an angle. The mob tried to remove the door, so as to go into the second room and to continue . . . to finish us off. Father brought skewers and gave them to Sasha and me--we flew at them when we saw Father bleeding: his face was covered with blood, he had been wounded in the head, and his whole face was bloody. We just threw ourselves on them when we saw that. We threw ourselves at the mob and drove back the ones in the hall, drove them down to the third floor. We came out on the landing, but a group of the bandits remained in one of the rooms they were smashing all the furniture in there, having closed the door behind them. We started tearing the door off to chase away the remaining ones or finish them. Then a man, an imposing man of about 40, an Azerbaijani, came in. When he was coming in, Father fell down and Mother flew to him, and started to cry out. I jumped out onto the balcony and started calling an ambulance, but then the mob started throwing stones through the windows of our veranda and kitchen. We live on the fourth floor. And no one came. I went into the room. It seemed to me that this man was the leader of the group. He was respectably dressed in a hat and a trench coat with a fur collar. And he addressed my mother in Azerbaijani: "What's with you, woman, why are you shouting? What happened? Why are you shouting like that?" She says, "What do you mean, what happened? You killed somebody!" My father was a musician, he played the clarinet, he played at many weddings, Armenian and Azerbaijani, he played for many years. Everyone knew him. Mother says, "The person who you killed played at thousands of Azerbaijani weddings, he brought so much joy to people, and you killed that person." He says, "You don't need to shout, stop shouting." And when they heard the voice of this man, the 15 to 18 people who were in the other room opened the door and started running out. We chased after them, but they ran away. That man left, too. As we were later told, downstairs one of them told the others, I don't know if it was from fright or what, told them that we had firearms, even though we only fought with hammers and an axe. We raced to Father and started to massage his heart, but it was already too late. We asked the neighbors to call an ambulance. The ambulance never came, although we waited for it all evening and all through the night. Somewhere around midnight about 15 policemen came. They informed us they were from Khachmas. They said, "We heard that a group was here at your place, you have our condolences." They told us not to touch anything and left. Father lay in the room. So we stayed home. Each of us took a hammer and a knife. We sat at home. Well, we say, if they descend on us again we'll defend ourselves. Somewhere around one o'clock in the morning two people came from the Sumgait Procuracy, investigators. They say, "Leave everything just how it is, we're coming back here soon and will bring an expert who will record and photograph everything." Then people came from the Republic Procuracy too, but no one helped us take Father away. The morning came and the neighbors arrived. We wanted to take Father away somehow. We called the Procuracy and the police a couple of times, but no one came. We called an ambulance, and nobody came. Then one of the neighbors said that the bandits were coming to our place again and we should hide. We secured the door somehow or other. We left Father in the room and went up to the neighbor's. The excesses began again in the morning. The bandits came in several vehicles, ZIL panel trucks, and threw themselves out of the vehicles like . . . a landing force near the center of town. Our building was located right there. A crowd formed. Then they started fighting with the soldiers. Then, in Buildings 19 and 20, that's next to the airline ticket office, they started breaking into Armenian apartments, destroying property, and stealing. The Armenians weren't at home, they had managed to flee and hide somewhere. And again they poured in the direction of our building. They were shouting that there were some Armenians left on the fourth floor, meaning us. "They're up there, still, up there. Let's go kill them!" They broke up all the furniture remaining in the two rooms, threw it outside, and burned it in large fires. We were hiding one floor up. Something heavy fell. Sasha threw himself toward the door shouting that it was probably Father, they had thrown Father, were defiling the corpse, probably throwing it in the fire, going to burn it. I heard it, and the sound was kind of hollow, and I said, "No, that's from some of the furniture." Mother and I pounced on Sasha and stopped him somehow, and calmed him down. The mob left somewhere around eight o'clock. They smashed open the door and went into the apartment of the neighbors across from us. They were also Armenians, they had left for another city. The father of the neighbor who was concealing us came and said, "Are you crazy? Why are you hiding Armenians? Don't you now they're checking all the apartments? They could kill you and them!" And to us :" . . . Come on, leave this apartment!" We went down to the third floor, to some other neighbors'. At first the man didn't want to let us in, but then one of his sons asked him and he relented. We stayed there until eleven o'clock at night. We heard the sound of motors. The neighbors said that it was armored personnel carriers. We went downstairs. There was a light on in the room where we left Father. In the other rooms, as we found out later, all the chandeliers had been torn down. They left only one bulb. The bulb was burning, which probably was a signal they had agreed on because there was a light burning in every apartment in our Microdistrict 3 where there had been a pogrom. With the help of the soldiers we made it to the City Party Committee and were saved. Our salvation--my mother's, my brother's, and mine,--was purely accidental, because, as we later found out from the neighbors, someone in the crowd shouted that we had firearms up there. Well, we fought, but we were only able to save Mother. We couldn't save Father. We inflicted many injuries on the bandits, some of them serious. But others came to take their places. We were also wounded, there was blood, and we were scratched all over--we got our share. It was a miracle we survived. We were saved by a miracle and the troops. And if troops hadn't come to Sumgait, the slaughter would have been even greater: probably all the Armenians would have been victims of the genocide. Through an acquaintance at the City Party Committee I was able to contact the leadership of the military unit that was brought into the city, and at their orders we were assigned special people to accompany us, experts. We went to ' pick up Father's corpse. We took it to the morgue. This was about two o'clock in the morning, it was already March 1, it was raining very hard and it was quite cold, and we were wearing only our suits. When my brother and I carried Father into the morgue we saw the burned and disfigured corpses. There were about six burned people in there, and the small corpse of a burned child. It was gruesome. I suffered a tremendous shock. There were about ten people there, but the doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being taken to Baku. There was a woman's corpse there too, she had been . . . well, there was part of a body there . . . a hacked-off part of a woman's body. It was something terrible. The morgue was guarded by the landing force . . . The child that had been killed was only ten or twelve years old. It was impossible to tell if it was a boy or a girl because the corpse was burned. There was a man there, too, several men. You couldn't tell anything because their faces were disfigured, they were in such awful condition... Now two and a half months have passed. Every day I recall with horror what happened in the city of Sumgait. Every day: my father, and the death of my father, and how we fought, and the people's sorrow, and especially the morgue. I still want to say that 70 years have passed since Soviet power was established, and up to the very last minute we could not conceive of what happened in Sumgait. It will go down in history. I'm particularly surprised that the mob wasn't even afraid of the troops. They even fought the soldiers. Many soldiers were wounded. The mob threw fuel mixtures onto the armored personnel carriers, setting them on fire. They weren't afraid. They were so sure of their impunity that they attacked our troops. I saw the clashes on February 29 near the airline ticket office, right across from our building. And that mob was fighting with the soldiers. The inhabitants of some of the buildings, also Azerbaijanis, threw rocks at the soldiers from windows, balconies, even cinder blocks and glass tanks. They weren't afraid of them. I say they were sure of their impunity. When we were at the neighbors' and when they were robbing homes near the airline ticket office I called the police at number 3-20-02 and said that they were robbing Armenian apartments and burning homes. And they told me that they knew that they were being burned. During those days no one from the police department came to anyone's aid. No one came to help us, either, to our home, even though perhaps they could have come and saved us. As we later found out the mob was given free vodka and drugs, near the bus station. Rocks were distributed in all parts of town to be thrown and used in fighting. So I think all of it was arranged in advance. They even knew in which buildings and apartments the Armenians lived, on which floors--they had lists, the bandits. You can tell that the "operation" was planned in advance. Thanks, of course, to our troops, to the country's leadership, and to the leadership of the Ministry of Defense for helping us, thanks to the Russian people, because the majority of the troops were Russians, and the troops suffered losses, too. I want to express this gratitude in the name of my family and in the name of all Armenians, and in the name of all Sumgait Armenians. For coming in time and averting terrible things: worse would have happened if that mob had not been stopped on time. At present an investigation is being conducted on the part of the USSR Procuracy. I want to say that those bandits should receive the severest possible punishment, because if they don't, the tragedy, the genocide, could happen again. Everyone should see that the most severe punishment is meted out for such deeds. Very many bandits and hardened hooligans took part in the unrest, in the mass disturbances. The mobs were huge. At present not all of them have been caught, very few of them have been, I think, judging by the newspaper reports. There were around 80 people near our building alone, that's how many people took part in the pogrom of our building all in all. They should all receive the most severe punishment so that others see that retribution awaits those who perform such acts. May 18, 1988 Yerevan - - - reference - - - [1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan, Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 153-157

talk.politics.mideast

I haven't seen anyone post this so I will do the honors. Maine beat LSSU 5-4 in Milwaukee on Saturday night. It was quite a game. Maine stormed to a 2-0 lead in the first and looked like they might run away with it. Maine's first goal came inside the first thirty seconds of the game. LSSU came back at the end of the period to cut the lead to 2-1. LSSU came out in the second dominating the play particularly along the boards. The play went quickly with the refs running a no-holds-barred type of game. LSSU scored three more unanswered goals to lead 4-2 at the end of the second. Now it looked like LSSU might just walk away with the game. Coach Walsh, of Maine, replaced the starting goalie Dunham with Snow, who won the game against Michigan. Snow proved to be a much more aggressive goalie. The third period, like the second, belonged to the team behind. Maine scored three unanswered goals in a span of five minutes after the four minute mark. They were all scored by Jim Montgomery, the tournament MVP, and all assisted by Paul Kariya. The last minute of the game bears highlighting. The change to Snow also proved the difference in the end. With one minute to go and with the LSSU goalie pulled, Snow dueled with a LSSU forward in a amazing set of moves by both. Snow won. It was a great way to end the game. This year's three championships games were sold out last year in about one month. The Bradley Center holds approximately 17,700.

rec.sport.hockey

Well, I dropped by the library yesterday, and picked up back copies of the National Crime Survey (1986-1990) in an effort to examine what it said about self-defense with a firearm. I haven't ground through much in the way of numbers yet, but a couple of things jumped out at me. First only 1986 and 1987 specify the type of weapon used in self defense. 1988, 1989, and 1990 refer only to "weapon." The second is that while assaults rose about 3% from 1986 to 1987, w/gun defenses reported *fell* by almost 25%. Unless there's an explanation for this, I'm tempted to mark it as a reporting problem, and as such going ahead with any examination of the numbers would be a waste of time. Anybody have an idea what might have cause a real difference, and not just a reporting difference? The survey doesn't appear to have changed significantly between 1986 and 1987.

talk.politics.guns

Yo' Joe, why don't you post what you really think? If there are any rational BMWMOA folks left out there, may the rest of us please have a brief summary of the current state of affairs in your esteemed organization, together with an historical outline of how you got to the above contretemps? Points will be deducted for shouting or bulging veins in the temple area.

rec.motorcycles

Not particularly *in* the World Series. During the season, he was probably more valuable than, say, putting Olerud out there to pitch, but yeah, he *was* valuable in getting them there. In the postseason, he sucked dirty canal water through a straw. The Jays won *in spite* of Morris much more than *because of* him. Umm, Roger? Return with us to those halcyon days of a few postings ago, where the poster Valentine was replying to used # of WS rings as a measure of better. The concept is called "context", and you should really become familiar with it someday. Unless this transaltes to "Clemens hasn't gone into Lou Gorman's office with a large caliber handgun and refused to come out until he'd been traded to the Jays," I'm at a complete loss as to any possible meaning for it. What on earth does this mean? Over their careers, Clemens has "won" 68% of the games he's started, Morris 58%. Per year, Clemens has averaged nearly 17 wins, Morris just under 15. Would you grant the proposition that preventing the other team from scoring increases your chances of winning a game? If so, then consider that Clemens allows 2.8 runs/9 innings pitched. Morris allows nearly a run more per nine innings. In fact, Jack Morris has never in his career had an ERA for a single year as good as Clemens' career ERA. But I forget, in the Maynardverse there was obviously some mystical significance to Buckner missing that grounder in 1986; had Morris been on the Sox, it would have been a routine groundout, right? Speaking of stupid, it has been patiently (and not-so-patiently) explained to you many times that attributing greatness to players based on the accomplishments of their teams makes about as much sense as claiming that a racecar has the most attractive paint job because it won the race. Your continued failure to not only understand but even to intelligently reply to any of the arguments presented leads me to the conclusion that you must have spent a few too many games in goal without a mask. No one is crying; the Jays won, and as a team they certainly deserved to win at least the AL East. They performed well in two short series and won the World Series, and I congratulate them for it. As a Red Sox fan, I hope they keep Morris. I was happy when they picked up Stewart, and elated when they traded for Darrin Jackson. You see, unless you believe in some mystical link between Morris and the offense, you can hardly help but believe that the man was credited with so many wins last year because he got lucky. Luck runs out, just like it did in 1982 when he pitched 50-odd more innings than 1992, gave up exactly *one* earned run more than in 1992, and went 17-16. Seriously, Roger, I'd really like to hear your explanation of the difference between the 1982 Morris and the 1992 Morris. Which one was a better pitcher, and why? Did Morris somehow "learn how to win" in the intervening ten years? If so, then why did he go 18-12 in 1991 with Minnesota with an ERA over half a run lower than 1992? Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

rec.sport.baseball

Joni Ciarletta writes You are not alone. My '79 Honda Accord with 110,000 miles on it started showing the same behavior. I replaced the brake master cylinder myself. It took about an hour and cost about $45. Sure beats paying $300 to have someone else do it! If I wanted to rebuild my own master cylinder instead of putting in a rebuilt one, it would have cost only $20 to $30 for the rebuild kit. The Honda brake master cylinder is easy to get to. Two bolts attach it to the engine compartment. Two brake lines enter the master cylinder. The tricky part was that the brake lines were stuck tight. My Craftsmen open end wrench rounded off the bolt heads! I had to use Vise Grips to loosen those suckers. Wow! Best invention since sliced bread. After that it was very easy. Bolt the new part in place, add new brake fluid, and bleed the brakes.

rec.autos

Yes, but in a fairly reproducible way. -40 is only a smidgen of the distance to absolute zero. And in any case you're going to have to borrow freezer space from a bio lab or someone to test/calibrate this darling anyway. Btw, you're probably going to want those big capacitors you found to fire the solenoid -- High current drain on frozen batteries can be an ugly thing.

sci.electronics

They'd probably quote Montesque (sp?) who was once asked if Russia was likely to become a democracy any time soon: "No, because Russia is a nation of slaves and the people get what they deserve." Since he said that, Russia has changed a great deal. But so, unfortunately have other nations.

talk.politics.guns

Storage space for sale: Iomega 44 MB removeable HD for sale w/ 16 cartridges. Total storage space comes out to be about 750 MB. 6 cartridges still in original shrinkwrapping, unused. Note: this is NOT compatible with SysQuest 45 cartridges. SCSI interface required... plugs right into the back of Macintoshes, but I don't have a controller for the IBM. All utilities I have for it are for the Mac. If you have a Mac, then this is for you! I have a ton of software on these disks that I don't use anymore, because I sold my mac system. Stuff included: Most of the PD stuff from info-mac site, LOTS of GIF's, and LOTS of sound effects. (1 entire disk with just sounds) I am asking $900 for all, plus shipping. For more information, send me mail (cxs2341@ultb.isc.rit.edu) or call (716) 427-0701... ask for Sawran cheers

misc.forsale

Sooner than you expect. Remember 'Cyprus'? Too bad. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established a vast network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two continents. Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS in Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were involved in espionage and fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and Arabian Peninsula. They were promised an 'independent' state under German 'protection' in an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National Council.' (A copy of this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional Record,' November 1, 1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic, Nazi Armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often expressed pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war. In summary, during World War II Armenians were carried away with the German might and cringing and fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1] "Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews) when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing." Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews - extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian. "...We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities against our people (Jews)...Members of our family witnessed the murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors... Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise to grant them self government if, in return, the Armenians would help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists. Mr. Amarian! I don't need your bias." Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California. [1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer: June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38. Serdar Argic

talk.politics.mideast

comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware

I made a mistake on the posted article [been fighting food poisoning for last 24 hours...] The second paragraph should state the following... "Doctors cleared Sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball on a tee and to catch a ball in his gloved hand." Sorry for the error, didn't know it until after posting.

rec.sport.baseball

I have lurked here a bit lately, and though some of the math is unknown to me, found it interesting. I thought I would post an article I found in the Saturday, April 17, 1993 Toronto Star: 'CLIPPER CHIP' to protect privacy Washington (REUTER) - President Bill CLinton announced yesterday a plan to plant a new "Clipper Chip" in every government telephone and computer line to prevent eavesdropping. Eventually the chips, developed by the government's National Institute for Standards and Technology, would be used by commercial and private electronics communication users. The White House said that to assure privacy, each device containing the encryption devices would be assigned two unique "keys" - numbers that will be needed by government agencies to decode messages. The attorney-general has been assigned the task of arranging that the keys are deposited in two "key-escrow" data bases. Access to them would be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a wiretap, the White House said in a statement. -30- Dan McKinnon

sci.crypt

If anyone gets the New York Times, the Edit page has a transcript of a VHS from Hams describing their methods of torture and execution. I will post it later on.

talk.politics.mideast

Sony D-22 portable Diskman forsale Good condition, flawless. Costomer AC adapter : 6v DC power supply ( tested 9v DC) * The factory adapter was tested 12v DC (AC 110v input) at the time I bought it three years ago. When using it, a lot of heat was generated inside the CD machine. Of course I wouldn't use it to risk this baby's life. Maybe that's why so many owners always complain about their portable machine going kaput after a short time usage. * 9v DC factory suggested LED display

misc.forsale

It seemed pretty conclusive to me. The puck clearly hit the crossbar and then came down on the line. And the announcers, admittedly homers, kept harping about how they "must have had a different view upstairs" because it was obvious to them, and, I would have thought, to anyone who saw the replay, that the puck didn't go in. The referee originally signalled no goal but the video replay "judges" initiated contact with the referee to claim that a goal was in fact scored. This, to me, is unheard of. Seeing stuff like this happen gives me a bad feeling about the Leaf chances this year. cordially, as always, rm

rec.sport.hockey

Jews won't agree with you, Malcolm. Cheers, Kent

talk.religion.misc

I've asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me. I really wish I could believe in him, 'cos no matter how much confidence I build up on my own, the universe *is* a big place, and it would be so nice to know I have someone watching over me in it... I've gone into this with an open mind. I've layed my beliefs aside from time to time when I've had doubt, and I've prayed to see what good that would do. I don't see what more I can do to open myself to your god, short of just deciding to believe for no good reason. And if I decide to believe for no good reason, why not believe in some other god? Zeus seems like a pretty cool candidate... All I know is that in all my searching, even though I've set aside my pride and decided that I want to know the truth no matter how difficult it may be to accept, I have never had any encounter with any deity, Christian or otherwise. Please tell me what more I can do while still remaining true to myself.

talk.religion.misc

I'll throw in a vote for a Metzler "economy" tire, the ME77. Good for mid-size older bikes. Rated to 130mph. Wearing well and handles my 12 mile ride(twisties) to work well on the SR500. Costs a bit more than the Chengs/IRC's etc, but still less than the Sport Metzlers for the newer bikes. Cost from Chaparral is about $60 for the front, and $70 for the rear.

rec.motorcycles

(a.k.a. Serdar Argic, The Merciful and Compassionate) [Serdar Argic's bountiful, divine, all-knowing, and footnoted wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute.] WHERE CAN I JOIN THE SERDAR ARGIC FAN CLUB? DO I GET A T-SHIRT? --The Friendly Neighborhood Alien--

talk.politics.mideast

Am I justified in being pissed off at this doctor? Last Saturday evening my 6 year old son cut his finger badly with a knife. I took him to a local "Urgent and General Care" clinic at 5:50 pm. The clinic was open till 6:00 pm. The receptionist went to the back and told the doctor that we were there, and came back and told us the doctor would not see us because she had someplace to go at 6:00 and did not want to be delayed here. During the next few minutes, in response to my questions, with several trips to the back room, the receptionist told me: - the doctor was doing paperwork in the back, - the doctor would not even look at his finger to advise us on going to the emergency room; - the doctor would not even speak to me; - she would not tell me the doctor's name, or her own name; - when asked who is in charge of the clinic, she said "I don't know." I realize that a private clinic is not the same as an emergency room, but I was quite angry at being turned away because the doctor did not want to be bothered. My son did get three stitches at the emergency room. I'm still trying to find out who is in charge of that clinic so I can write them a letter. We will certainly never set foot in that clinic again.

sci.med

VHS movie for sale Kevin Costner Dances withs Wolves Just open and was used once, $12.00 or best offer, buyer will have to pay shipping. ($1.00 for shipping) Let me know if you are interested, and send your offer to this e-mail address. Koutd@hirama.hiram.edu thanks,

misc.forsale

Last I checked I was one person, I haven't even been elected as a representative for "gaydom". Should I ascribe every thing you say as representing every member of the straight community? Thats the point. If there are several million queers in DC you had better start wondering about the validity of the study.

talk.politics.misc

Umm... I beg to differ with the phrase ``only conceivable meaning''. The SDNS protocols, for example, make explicit provision for multiple encryption systems, as does PEM. (And I'd love to see how they'd mandate this new system for PEM without disclosing it....)

sci.crypt

I bet it suddenly started sticking when you started leaving the PC running the menu all night. There is a limitation/bug in the date roll-over software in PC's that means you have to be doing something like waiting for keyboard input via a DOS call rather than a BIOS call (as menus often use) otherwise the code to update the date after midnight never gets called. Somebody might be able to correct the details in case I've mis-rememberred them, but I think you have to change the menu program (if you have the sources) or add a TSR or system patch or something. As far as I know the CMOS clock keeps the right time (in fact about 7 seconds/day better than DOS's clock).

comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware

Taft Electronics, 45th Street between 5th & 6th -- the only one left in what was once an entire district of electronics stores. A little expensive. Trans-Am Electronics, Canal Street near 7th Ave -- lots of surplus type stuff. Several other electronics or "surplus" type places are still on Canal Street. I think Bronx Wholesale Radio is still in business -- Fordham Road not too far from Arthur Avenue in the Bronx. Also in the Bronx is NorthEastern (or was it Northwestern? Northeast Electronics?) on Jerome Avenue near Bedford Park Boulevard. They're mostly a TV parts supply house, but when I was building CB radio projects, they were quite handy..

sci.electronics

I don't think so at first, but solid state offered better reliabity, id bet, and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up.

sci.space

On two separate occasions I saw Dick Allen (back when he was Richie) homer at Shea off the middle of the black centerfield hitter's background screen. I think both shots would have traveled 500 feet.

rec.sport.baseball

Please realize that I am frequently getting in trouble for straying from orthodoxy, but here is my opinion: I never thought of these two ideas being "against" each other. People might quibble about what "intrinsically" means but the reason we are sinners is because we do not behave as good as we are. The message of Christ is that each of us are not only good, but great, that we can approach perfection, albeit perhaps through a different technique than you claim Buddhism teaches. Because we do not realize our greatness, we sin. Peter had no problem walking on water until a little doubt crept in. Doesn't David ask in the 8th Psalm "what is man that you [God] should care for him, but you have made him just a little lower than the angels"? I probably exagerate in my mind what a scrawny little kid David was, just as I probably exagerate what a gigantic monster Goliath was, but David's power easily defeated Goliath's. Remember the rich young man who comes up to Jesus and asks what he can do to enter the Kingdom, Jesus says follow the commandments. I always picture the smug look on his face as he says he's done that his whole life, probably anticipating an "attaboy" from the Messiah. Instead Jesus gives him a harder task, sell everything and follow Him. Jesus is raising the bar. The desciples say how can anyone do this if it's so hard even for rich people. Jesus says anyone can do it, with God's help. Jesus says not only can we avoid killing people, we can avoid getting angry at people. Not only can we avoid committing adultery, we can control our own desires. I realize this was not your main point, but I wonder how other people see this. (Please forgive any generalizations I am about to make.) Your point about how "hard" other religions are is a good one, just as your "Parting Question" is a tough question. I think that Muslims worship the same God as I do, we can learn from their name "submission". Hindus and Buddhists and Taoists, etc. claim that "God" is impersonal. Is God personal or impersonal? I say yes, but if I think a little more my answer is whichever is greater. I think it is greater to be a personal entity, with an individual consciousness, but you're right that that might be a cultural bias. If I think more I must admit that God's personal nature is as far beyond my conception as His impersonal nature is beyond the Hindu's conception. If somehow Jesus could fit into Hindu cosmology then maybe I wouldn't have a problem, though that is hard to imagine. Are there any former (or present) "Eastern Religion" members here who could comment?

soc.religion.christian

I've had my Fluke 8060A here at work for just over 10 years now. It is a wonderful meter. Several colleagues here have some of the newer Fluke meters, though I still would just as soon hang on to my 8060. The 8060 a is the 1980s digial "analog" to the Simpson 260 analog DMM of the 1950-1960s. There was/is (?) an 8060B that had extended frequency response. I've got a nifty little pen shaped meter made by Soar that I keep in my toolbox at home. I've had that for six or seven years now and only replaced the batteries a couple of timees; it is more than adequate for day-to-day hobby use. I think Soar OEMs their stuff for a number of vendors. Some of JDR Microdevices' stuff looks rather similar to Soar's.

sci.electronics

Philadelphia 1 2 4--7 Buffalo 0 3 1--4 First period 1, Philadelphia, Recchi 52 (Galley, Lindros) 0:18. Second period 2, Philadelphia, Hawgood 11 (Dineen, Eklund) pp, 2:15. 3, Philadelphia, Dineen 33 (McGill) sh, 5:40. 4, Buffalo, Barnaby 1 (Hawerchuk, Smehlik) pp, 7:48. 5, Buffalo, Wood 18 (LaFontaine, Ledyard) pp, 17:34. 6, Buffalo, Mogilny 75 (Hawerchuk, Carney) pp, 18:56. Third period 7, Philadelphia, Eklund 11 (Dineen, Beranek) 4:42. 8, Buffalo, Mogilny 76 (Errey, LaFontaine) 5:24. 9, Philadelphia, Dineen 34 (Brind'Amour) pp, 6:44. 10, Philadelphia, Dineen 35 (Brind'Amour, Galley) sh, 8:39. 11, Philadelphia, Acton 8 (Dineen, Brind'Amour) 19:48. Philadelphia: 7 Power play: 5-2 Special goals: pp: 2 sh: 2 Total: 4 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Acton 1 0 1 Beranek 0 1 1 Brind'Amour 0 3 3 Dineen 3 3 6 Eklund 1 1 2 Galley 0 2 2 Hawgood 1 0 1 Lindros 0 1 1 McGill 0 1 1 Recchi 1 0 1 Buffalo: 4 Power play: 10-3 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Barnaby 1 0 1 Carney 0 1 1 Errey 0 1 1 Hawerchuk 0 2 2 LaFontaine 0 2 2 Ledyard 0 1 1 Mogilny 2 0 2 Smehlik 0 1 1 Wood 1 0 1 ----------------------------------------- Minnesota 1 1 1--3 Detroit 0 2 3--5 First period 1, Minnesota, McPhee 18 (Ludwig) 1:23. Second period 2, Minnesota, Dahlen 34 (Courtnall, Gagner) pp, 0:31. 3, Detroit, Drake 18 (Howe, Ogrodnick) 9:14. 4, Detroit, Ysebaert 34 (Lidstrom, Howe) pp, 17:37. Third period 5, Detroit, Ciccarelli 41 (Coffey, Chiasson) pp, 0:32. 6, Detroit, Kennedy 19 (Burr, Probert) 3:42. 7, Detroit, Yzerman 58 (Ciccarelli, Gallant) 6:17. 8, Minnesota, Dahlen 35 (Courtnall, Gagner) 19:11. Detroit: 5 Power play: 4-2 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Burr 0 1 1 Chiasson 0 1 1 Ciccarelli 1 1 2 Coffey 0 1 1 Drake 1 0 1 Gallant 0 1 1 Howe 0 2 2 Kennedy 1 0 1 Lidstrom 0 1 1 Ogrodnick 0 1 1 Probert 0 1 1 Ysebaert 1 0 1 Yzerman 1 0 1 Minnesota: 3 Power play: 2-1 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Courtnall 0 2 2 Dahlen 2 0 2 Gagner 0 2 2 Ludwig 0 1 1 McPhee 1 0 1 ----------------------------------------- Edmonton 0 0 0--0 Winnipeg 1 2 0--3 First period 1, Winnipeg, Shannon 20 (Steen, Davydov) pp, 2:08. Second period 2, Winnipeg, Selanne 76 (Olausson) 5:25. 3, Winnipeg, Zhamnov 25 (Selanne) 19:42. Third period No scoring. Winnipeg: 3 Power play: 6-1 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Davydov 0 1 1 Olausson 0 1 1 Selanne 1 1 2 Shannon 1 0 1 Steen 0 1 1 Zhamnov 1 0 1 Edmonton: 0 Power play: 3-0 No scoring ----------------------------------------- Toronto 1 1 0--2 Chicago 0 2 1--3 First period 1, Toronto, Baumgartner 1 (unassisted) 18:40. Second period 2, Chicago, Roenick 50 (Murphy, Chelios) 1:29. 3, Toronto, Andreychuk 55 (Mironov, Lefebvre) 13:22. 4, Chicago, Murphy 7 (Roenick, Chelios) pp, 19:05. Third period 5, Chicago, Matteau 15 (unassisted) 10:51. Error: Power play goal mismatch. Assuming calc value. Error: Team: Toronto Calc: 0 Read: 1 Chicago: 3 Power play: 7-1 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Chelios 0 2 2 Matteau 1 0 1 Murphy 1 1 2 Roenick 1 1 2 Toronto: 2 Power play: 3-0 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Andreychuk 1 0 1 Baumgartner 1 0 1 Lefebvre 0 1 1 Mironov 0 1 1 ----------------------------------------- First period 1, St Louis, Shanahan 50 (Brown, Felsner) 10:44. 2, St Louis, Miller 23 (Bassen, Brown) 19:38. 3, St Louis, Bassen 8 (Zombo) 19:48. Second period 4, St Louis, Bassen 9 (Hedican, Miller) 0:14. 5, St Louis, Miller 24 (Zombo, Hedican) 11:09. 6, Tampa Bay, Maltais 7(Hamrlik) 11:27. 7, Tampa Bay, Bergland 3 (Hervey, Gilhen) 17:16. 8, St Louis, Shanahan 51 (Emerson) 19:38. Third period 9, Tampa Bay, Creighton 19 (Bergland, Bergevin) 0:40. 10, Tampa Bay, Chambers 10 (Zamuner, Cole) 10:37. 11, Tampa Bay, Cole 12 (Beers, Bradley) 11:58. St Louis: 6 Power play: 4-0 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Bassen 2 1 3 Brown 0 2 2 Emerson 0 1 1 Felsner 0 1 1 Hedican 0 2 2 Miller 2 1 3 Shanahan 2 0 2 Zombo 0 2 2 Tampa Bay: 5 Power play: 3-0 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Beers 0 1 1 Bergevin 0 1 1 Bergland 1 1 2 Bradley 0 1 1 Chambers 1 0 1 Cole 1 1 2 Creighton 1 0 1 Gilhen 0 1 1 Hamrlik 0 1 1 Hervey 0 1 1 Maltais 1 0 1 Zamuner 0 1 1 ----------------------------------------- San Jose 0 1 2--3 Calgary 0 4 3--7 First period No scoring. Second period 1, San Jose, Garpenlov 22 (Odgers, Gaudreau) pp, 3:37. 2, Calgary, Nieuwendyk 38 (MacInnis, Suter) pp, 5:26. 3, Calgary, Ranheim 21 (Otto, Suter) 10:43. 4, Calgary, Yawney 1 (Nieuwendyk, Roberts) 11:26. 5, Calgary, Berube 4 (Paslawski, Skrudland) 13:45. Third period 6, San Jose, Wood 1 (Odgers, Kisio) 8:00. 7, Calgary, Reichel 40 (unassisted) 9:26. 8, Calgary, Roberts 38 (Musil, Paslawski) pp, 12:27. 9, San Jose, Kisio 26 (unassisted) 13:10. 10, Calgary, Paslawski 18 (Ashton, Stern) 16:16. Calgary: 7 Power play: 4-2 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Ashton 0 1 1 Berube 1 0 1 MacInnis 0 1 1 Musil 0 1 1 Nieuwendyk 1 1 2 Otto 0 1 1 Paslawski 1 2 3 Ranheim 1 0 1 Reichel 1 0 1 Roberts 1 1 2 Skrudland 0 1 1 Stern 0 1 1 Suter 0 2 2 Yawney 1 0 1 San Jose: 3 Power play: 3-1 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Garpenlov 1 0 1 Gaudreau 0 1 1 Kisio 1 1 2 Odgers 0 2 2 Wood 1 0 1 ----------------------------------------- Vancouver 1 2 5--8 Los Angeles 2 3 1--6 First period 1, Los Angeles, Robitaille 63 (Gretzky, Sandstrom) 1:39. 2, Vancouver, Babych 3 (Craven, Nedved) pp, 9:43. 3, Los Angeles, Sandstrom 25 (Gretzky, Robitaille) 10:06. Second period 4, Vancouver, Linden 32 (Ronning, Courtnall) pp, 0:54. 5, Vancouver, Ward 22 (Hunter, Nedved) 1:24. 6, Los Angeles, Gretzky 16 (Sandstrom, Robitaille) 6:57. 7, Los Angeles, Zhitnik 12 (Kurri, Robitaille) pp, 14:02. 8, Los Angeles, Millen 23 (Hardy) pp, 16:57. Third period 9, Vancouver, Ronning 27 (Dirk) 5:28. 10, Vancouver, Ronning 28 (Courtnall, Linden) pp, 11:15. 11, Vancouver, Linden 33 (Courtnall, Ronning) 11:27. 12, Los Angeles, Donnelly 29 (Millen, Granato) pp, 14:35. 13, Vancouver, Courtnall 31 (Ronning, Ratushny) 14:54. 14, Vancouver, Ronning 29 (Linden, Diduck) en, 18:47. Vancouver: 8 Power play: 6-3 Special goals: pp: 3 en: 1 Total: 4 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Babych 1 0 1 Courtnall 1 3 4 Craven 0 1 1 Diduck 0 1 1 Dirk 0 1 1 Hunter 0 1 1 Linden 2 2 4 Nedved 0 2 2 Ratushny 0 1 1 Ronning 3 3 6 Ward 1 0 1 Los Angeles: 6 Power play: 10-3 Scorer G A Pts --------------- --- --- --- Donnelly 1 0 1 Granato 0 1 1 Gretzky 1 2 3 Hardy 0 1 1 Kurri 0 1 1 Millen 1 1 2 Robitaille 1 3 4 Sandstrom 1 2 3 Zhitnik 1 0 1

rec.sport.hockey

: In article <C4u3x5.Fw7@magpie.linknet.com> manes@magpie.linknet.com (Steve : [...] : > I don't know how anyone can state that gun control could have NO : > effect on homicide rates. There were over 250 >accidental< handgun : > homicides in America in 1990, most with licensed weapons. More : > American children accidentally shot other children last year (15) : > than all the handgun homicides in Great Britain. (Source: National : > Safety Council. Please... no dictionary arguments about RATES vs : > TOTAL NUMBERS, okay? They're offered for emphasis, not comparison). : > : You're a great debater. You chose your sources of information, claim them : to be superior, I've made no such claim. Please direct my attention towards any posting of mine where I claimed superior sources of information. It's probably because I bothered to post any references at all while others seem content to post numbers pulled from the ozone, that you've confused it with fact-twisting. If so, I apologize. : then take those twisted numbers and twist them further by trying Well then, here's fair opportunity for you to prove that I've "twisted numbers." On what grounds do you contradict those references? Do you have any citations... any sources of your own that I can take similar gratuitous shots at? : to compare absolute numbers between two countries that have major population : differences, the USA and GB, and then whine that you are afraid someone might : attack your process, and so claim the numbers are for "emphasis, not : comparison"? Emphasis of what? Nitpicking and scolding is a whiney debating style, Jim. : Anything else is blowing smoke. You seddit, brudda.

talk.politics.guns

Excellent point. I hope to God that Ted Simmons doesn't get the weird idea of trading for the guy. And if he does, he had better not include Jeff King in the deal. Oh God--what if he traded Zane Smith and Jeff King for Vaughn and Greg Blosser? It would be worse than The Nichols Curse! Hmm, I guess that doesn't sound sincere enough. Oh well, at least I tried...

rec.sport.baseball

[Please excuse me if this is inappropriate to post here, but I do not read these groups normally and I did not see any PC related marketplace newsgroups] FOR SALE: Borland C++ with Application Frameworks 3.1 (Full Professional Developer Kit) Borland C++ Programming Package including unopened software, unopened manuals, and registration card. SOFTWARE INCLUDES: 1. *Still plastic wrapped* high density 5.25 inch disks for Borland C++: total of 18 diskettes in 2 individually wrapped packages, each disk has "Borland C++" and "BC++ & APP. FRAMEWORKS 3.1" on label 2. Amish System Utilities for Windows (one 5.25" high density disk): Amish Launch Amish Desk Utilities for Windows 3. Phar Lap's 286|DOS-Extender Lite Version 2.5 (one 5.25" HD disk) MANUALS INCLUDE: 1. *Still Plastic Wrapped* Manuals include (i.e. unopened): A. Boland Windows API Volumes: I: Reference Guide II: Reference Guide III: Windows 3.1 Reference Guide B. Borland Turbo Debugger 3.0 User's Guide C. Borland Turbo Profiler 3.0 User's Guide D. Borland Turbo Assembler 3.0 Users Guide E. Borland C++ 3.1 User's Guide: integrated environment optimization command line compiler installation F. Borland C++ 3.1 Programmer's Guide: language structure, class libraries, advanced prgramming techniques, anci c implementaion G. Borland C++ 3.1 Library Reference: runtime library, global variables, cross-reference H. Borland C++ 3.1 Tools and Utilities Guide: error messages, winsightm make, help/resource compilers, tlink I. Borland Object Windows for C++ User's Guide: tutorials, class reference 2. Opened (no plastic wrapping, but unread) Manuals include: A. Borland Turbo Assembler 3.0 Quick Reference Guide B. Borland Turbo Vision for C++ User's Guide C. Borland Resource Workshop User's Guide This package was purchased by a former employee of my father's and my father has asked me to try and sell it since neither of us have any use for it. Retails for $749, most software houses have it for approx. $480. I am asking $400. If you are interested, please e-mail me directly because I do not normally read this newsgroup.

comp.os.ms-windows.misc

================================================================= I am posting this for someone else. Please respond to the address listed below. Please also excuse the duplication as this message has been crossposted. Thanks! ================================================================= REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES VIA THE INTERNET NASA is planning to expand the domain of users of its Earth and space science data. This effort will: o Use the evolving infrastructure of the U.S. Global Change Research Program including the Mission To Planet Earth (MTPE) and the Earth Observing System Data and Information System (EOSDIS) Programs. o Use the Internet, particularly the High Performance Computing and Communications Program's NREN (National Research and Education Network), as a means of providing access to and distribution of science data and images and value added products. o Provide broad access to and utilization of remotely sensed images in cooperation with other agencies (especially NOAA, EPA, DOE, DEd, DOI/USGS, and USDA). o Support remote sensing image and data users and development communities. The user and development communities to be included (but not limited to) as part of this effort are educators, commercial application developers (e.g., television weather forecasters), librarians, publishers, agriculture specialists, transportation, forestry, state and local government planners, and aqua business. This program will be initiated in 1994. Your assistance is requested to identify potential applications of remote sensing images and data. We would like your ideas for potential application areas to assist with development of the Implementation Plan. PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS. We are seeking your ideas in these areas: (1) Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images; (2) Potential noncommercial use of remote sensing data and images in education (especially levels K-12) and other noncommercial areas; (3) Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data more accessible; (4) Additional points of contacts for ideas; and (5) Addresses and names from whom to request proposals. For your convenience, a standard format for responses is included below. Feel free to amend it as necessary. Either e-mail or fax your responses to us by May 5, 1993. E-MAIL: On Internet "rsdwg@orion.ossa.hq.nasa.gov" ASCII - No binary attachments please FAX: Ernie Lucier, c/o RSDWG, NASA HQ, FAX 202-358-3098 Survey responses in the following formats may also be placed in the FTP directory ~ftp/pub/RSDWG on orion.nasa.gov. Please indicate the format. Acceptable formats are: Word for Windows 2.X, Macintosh Word 4.X and 5.X, and RTF. ----------------------------RESPONSE FORMAT-------------------------- REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES VIA THE INTERNET (1) Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images (if possible, identify the relevant types of data or science products, user tools, and standards). (2) Uses of remote sensing data and images in education (especially levels K-12) and other noncommercial areas (if possible, identify the relevant types of data or science products, user tools, and standards). (3) Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data and images more accessible (if possible, identify relevant types of formats, standards, and user tools) (4) Additional suggested persons or organizations that may be resources for further ideas on applications areas. Please include: Name, Organization, Address and Telephone Number. (5) Organizations, mailing lists (electronic and paper), periodicals, etc. to whom a solicitation for proposals should be sent when developed. Please include: Name, Organization, Address and Telephone Number. (6) We would benefit from knowing why users that know about NASA remote sensing data do not use the data. Is it because they do not have ties to NASA investigators, or high cost, lack of accessibility, incompatible data formats, poor area of interest coverage, inadequate spatial or spectral resolution, ...?

sci.space

Howdy We have been having a real problem with an AST 386sx/16 machine with 4mb of RAM. We installed Paradox for Windows, (but I don't think Paradox is the real problem here), and the installation went ok (windows is installed on a local drive, paradox installed on a novell network (netware 386 v3.26 or greater), DOS 5, Win 3.1) but the program will not load in 386 enchanted mode. The thermometer bar goes to 60% and we then either get a 'invalid command.com' or a windows nastygram talking about an illegal instruction. I've checked out the command.com thing, but as a long-time C programmer, I've crashed my share of machines with pointer problems and this is a standard behavior :-) Anyway, paradox will run in standard mode, but not enhanced. We also have quattro pro windows, exhibiting the same behavior. Spent about 2 hours with Borland's tech people, with no avail. The guy I talked to a microsoft didn't want to really dig in and help, as he gave up pretty quickly. Somewhat disappointing, really. I expected more from Microsoft. You'd think with all the millions of windows installations that they would have seen all the possible problems, but I guess not... Microsoft had sent us a 13 page fax on fixing UAE and General Protection faults (sorry, I can't fax anything out of here so please don't ask, try Microsoft), which we tried. We did *everything* they said, and still no luck. So. If you can help, please mail me. This problem is driving us nuts. I will greatly appreciate any information anyone can pass on. Thanks Kelly -------------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS IS THE REAL SIGNATURE...Please ignore the following demon signature.. Kelly J. Grant grantk@nosc.mil 4045 Hancock St (619) 225-2562 "The next time someone asks you if you San Diego, CA 92110 are a god, you say YES!" :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------

comp.os.ms-windows.misc

The Supreme Court seems to disagree with you -- they have stated that "the people" is a term of art refering to an individual right, and have explicitly mentioned the second amendment as an example. I quote: "... 'the people' seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. The Preamble declares that the Constitution is ordained, and established by 'the people of the the U.S.' The Second Amendment protects the right of the people to keep and bear Arms ...." - Supreme Court of the U.S., U.S. v. Uerdugo-Uriquidez (1990). Furthermore, in the Miller decision, they only permitted prosecution for possession of a sawed-off shotgun because the defense had not presented testimony and they therefore accepted the argument of the government that such weapons have no military value -- they held that the amendment protected the individual right to possess military weapons. Unfortunately, no second amendment case has successfully gotten to the court in fifty years. However, that does not change the interpretation. Furthermore, it appears that others disagree with you as well, vis: "The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratifi- cation, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner." - Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 97th Congress, Second Session ( February 1982 ) You might rightfully ask "well then, what does that first bit about militias mean?" Well, "militia" in historical context basically means the whole of the adult males of the country. (Indeed, the U.S. Code still defines "militia" as all armed men over the age of 17). "The Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense .... And ... these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time." - Supreme Court of the United States, U.S. v. Miller (1939). The reason for the phrase being there was to explain the rationale behind the amendment, which was this: by depending on the people to bear arms in defense of the country, no centralization of military power could ever occur which would permit tyranny -- in short, the government would remain perpetually in fear of the people, rather than the other way around. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, June 1776 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950). "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance ? Let them take arms ... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to William S. Smith, 1787, in Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover, ed., 1939). "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States." - Noah Webster, "An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution" (1787), in Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888). You may disagree with the second amendment, and wish that it be repealed, but please do not pretend that it isn't there and that it doesn't mean what it says. You might argue that conditions have changed and that it should no longer be present, but you can't imagine it away. I could fill a book with detailed argumentation. Many have already. However, none of this has anything to do with cryptography. Lets get it out of here. If you insist on discussing this, please do it in talk.politics.guns, where people will gladly discuss this matter with you. -- Perry Metzger pmetzger@shearson.com

sci.crypt

[reply to mcovingt@aisun3.ai.uga.edu (Michael Covington)] The guy didn't sound too shy to me. He sounded like a jerk. I say ditch him for someone more knowledgeable and empathetic.

sci.med

Close Roger, but no banana, er avocado or is it artichoke ?!? Geracie in the Murky News said Kingston will be the new 49ers quarterback. I'm still trying to determine if he is kidding or not :). If I happen to pound down enuff pints sometime this week I'll go back and check what stooper idiot Purdy said in his column. That ought to be worth a few Leafs, I mean Laughs. If I'm really depressed I'll read the SF Comicle. mark just say

rec.sport.hockey

addition, Bricklins were manufactured in the 70s with engines from Ford. They are rather odd looking with the encased front bumper. There aren't a lot of them around, but Hemmings (Motor News) ususally has ten or so listed. Basically, they are a performance Ford with new styling slapped on top. Rush fan?

rec.autos

: Help: I am running some sample problems from O'Reilly volume 4, : Xt Intrisics Programming Manual, chapter 3. popup : dialog boxes and so on. : : In example 3.5, page 76 : "Creating a pop-up dialog box" : : The application creates window with a button "Quit" and "Press me". : The button "Press me" pops up a dialog box. The strange feature of : this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the : first time. If I try to pop it up a 2nd time (3rd, 4th .... time), : it is *much* slower. : : Has anyone any experience with these sample programs, or why I get : this behaviour - fast response time for the first time but slow response : time from 2nd time onwards ? : Anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time : they popup in reasonable fast response time ? : : Thankyou - Shirley Thanks to those who responded. We were able to prevent this behaviour by two methods: 1) running twm rather than olwm 2) keeping olwm, but putting "wmTimeout: 10" in the resources It has been suggested that the difficuty was something to do with the window manager positioning the popup window. Any guru who can analyse what is going on from this information, please post and let us know.

comp.windows.x

all of my HO's disagree with your HO's. I LOVED Dallas rush hour in my stick.. detested it in the auto(like i did any other time in the auto...). Of course, Dalls rush hours are nothing, from what i hear..if i lived in LA, i might be of a different persuasion. And, just for the record, rarely do you shift gears when merging into traffic..that is what 5 speeds are good for..4th is good up through around 80-90, most of the time, so you can just wind it out.. it's not going to hurt anything, and keeps it in the powerband anyway.. only shift into top gear when you are exceeding redline in 4th(fairly rare, unless you drive a ferrari or some such, i'd bet) or when you hit cruising speed where you feel comfortable(or when my mother is sitting in the passanger seat complaining about how you wind her "poor little engine" way too hi :-) Just my HO's..

rec.autos

Christian anti-Semitism comes from the obvious fact that the Jews should know the Hebrew Scriptures better than anyone else, yet they did not convert to Christianity en mass, thus rejecting "Christian Love."

talk.religion.misc

Has anyone taken a look at the new ViewSonic 17? They claim 1280x1024 at 76Hz. How does it compare with the T560i in terms of price, and quality of display?

comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware

Just a few lines about my favorite team sweeping the Dodgers (one of my least favorite) in LA (Sweet!). Also the Mets (my other least favorite team) loss to the Rockies made this this a great day and a great start to the weekend as the Cardinals are on the ESPN tonight. Big Lee Smith is having a great start and the Cardinals seem to be hitting in the clutch even though they have had a few games with lots of hits and not many runs. Hopefully with the coaches stress on situational hitting in spring training, the runners LOB will be lower this year (probably due to the high strikeout numbers by Jose and Lankford and Zeile's off year). I don't know why all the fuss about the Fillies. The media and all the Filly fans on r.s.b forget who is right behind them in the standings. Give the Wild Thing a week or two before he starts blowing some games and we'll see who is in first then. I believe the Cardinal pitching staff is more complete than the Filly staff and that will make the difference. On a side note, a few years ago (5-6), a comment was made by some baseball player or manager about the Dodger defense. He was asked where to hit the ball against the Dodgers and he replied "Fair." I remember it being in the "They Said It" section of Sports Illustrated. I would like to know who said it and what issue it was in. GO REDBIRDS!!

rec.sport.baseball

I have a problem where an Athena strip chart widget is not calling it's get value function. I am pretty sure this is happening because I am not using XtAppMainLoop, but am dealing with events via sockets. (ya ya). Anyway, I want to cause a timeout so that the strip chart widget(s) will call their get value callback. Or if someone knows another FAST way around this (or any way for that matter) let me know. I cannot (or I don't think) call the XtNgetValue callback myself because I don't have the value for the third parameter of the get value proc (XtPointer call_data). In other words, I want to force a strip chart widget to update itself. Any ideas anyone?

comp.windows.x

Well, Druce pretty much sucked when he was with the Caps. He had one good **playoffs** (not season). oh well. The Caps are notorious for making stupid trades anyway, as can be seen with the Cicarelli and Hrivnak trades. Sigh. In another note... I'd have to say the Caps biggest surprise was Cote, as many Caps fans had been expecting a lot from Bondra already.

rec.sport.hockey

There has been some talk recently of Latin rites from the early Church used to bless same-sex unions.If anyone has any idea where copies of these rites exist (in whole or in part), please notify me by e-mail. (I understand that similar ceremonies written in Slavonic exist as well. Let me know where I can find these.) It doesn't matter whether the Latin rite is in the original or a translation. However, I would prefer to have an English version of the Slavon- ic rite, if it exists. Thanks in advance. Doug Hayes @ PSU

soc.religion.christian

(Pleading mode on) Please! I'm begging you! Quit confusing religious groups, and stop making generalizations! I'm a Protestant! I'm an evangelical! I don't believe that my way is the only way! I'm not a "creation scientist"! I don't think that homosexuals should be hung by their toenails! If you want to discuss bible thumpers, you would be better off singling out (and making obtuse generalizations about) Fundamentalists. If you compared the actions of Presbyterians or Methodists with those of Southern Baptists, you would think that they were different religions! Please, prejudice is about thinking that all people of a group are the same, so please don't write off all Protestants or all evangelicals! (Pleading mode off.) God.......I wish I could get ahold of all the Thomas Stories......

talk.religion.misc

You're right: Thomas, Gonzalez, Sheffield, and Griffey don't even begin to compare with Ripken, Boggs, and Gwynn, so no wonder Alomar gets so much attention. Sandberg got no attention his rookie year because his rookie year was terrible. So was his sophomore year. National League pitchers are "much better pitchers"? That certainly explains Sheffield's 1993, hm? Are you confusing "have ERA's that are 0.40 lower because they don't face DH's" with "much better"?

rec.sport.baseball

Hi there! Could some kind soul tell me what is the price of LC/IIvi/IIvx compatible 512kb VRAM SIMMs in the US nowadays? The price over here (Finland) is so ridiculously high (about $185 each in USD) that I think it is worth the trouble to try to get them overseas. Thanks

comp.sys.mac.hardware

JB> RR> "I don't doubt that the placebo effect is alive and well with JB> RR> EVERY medical modality - estimated by some to be around 20+%, JB> RR> but why would it be higher with alternative versus conventional JB> RR> medicine?" JB> JB> Because most the the time, closer to 90% in my experience, there is no JB> substance to the 'alternative' intervention beyond the good intentions of the JB> practitioner, which in itself is quite therapeutic. [.......] JB> JB> John Badanes, DC, CA JB> romdas@uclink.berkeley.edu Well, if that's the case in YOUR practice, I have a hard time figuring out how you even managed to make it into the bottom half of your class, or did you create your diplomas with crayons? If someone runs a medical practice with only a 10% success rate, they either tackle problems for which they are not qualified to treat, or they have no conscience and are only in business for fraudulent purposes. OTOH, who are we kidding, the New England Medical Journal in 1984 ran the heading: "Ninety Percent of Diseases are not Treatable by Drugs or Surgery," which has been echoed by several other reports. No wonder MDs are not amused with alternative medicine, since the 20% magic of the "placebo effect" would award alternative practitioners twice the success rate of conventional medicine... --Ron--

sci.med

I have two questions: 1) I have been having troubles with my Wordperfect for Windows. When I try to select and change fonts, etc. some of the text disappears. I tried to center two lines once, and the second line disappeared. I can not find the error, and I do not know how to correct it. 2) Is this the right newsgroup? Where should I go? E-mail prefered... _____ Who else is still waiting for "Naked Gun Part (Pi) | | "

comp.os.ms-windows.misc

long The NRA is successful because (among a number of things), on the drop of a hat, they can get a congresspersons office flooded with postcards, faxes and phone calls. Certainly, with our way-cool Internet powers of organization, we can act in the same way, if such action is appropriate. As long as we are kept informed of events, anyone on this bboard can make a call to action. Hopefully, we're a strong enough community to act on those calls. I realize this is a little optomistic, and I'm glad EFF is working in the loop on these issues, but don't underestimate the potential of the net for political action.

sci.crypt

I really don't know where to post this question so I figured that this board would be most appropriate. I was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites. They look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle. Does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are?. I hear that they're called 'Cooling Towers' but what the heck do they cool? I hope someone can help

sci.electronics

excuse me for my ignorance. But I remember reading once that the Biblical tribe known as the Philistines still exists...they are the modern day Palestinians. Anyone out there with more info, please post it!!!

alt.atheism

I've been hearing rumblings about Fresco, and it sounds like it may be what I'm looking for, but how far is it from release, or at least some kind of availability? How similar is it to InterViews? If I code to InterViews, will my code work with Fresco? How about Motif? I've heard some mention of versions of InterViews which support Motif. Will it be feasible to use Motif with Fresco? Any information would be much appreciated. - Brad

comp.windows.x

As a minor point of interest, earlier news reports claim to have been quoting the Governor of Texas when Her Holiness referred to the Dividians as _Mormons_ and called for their expulsion from TX. Any Texans have details?

talk.politics.guns

Hi folks. I'm going to be buying my first bike and I'm considering an 82 Honda Ascot FT500 with less than 5K miles. Does this sound like a reasonable choice? Is there anything special I need to know? Thanks.

rec.motorcycles

Has anyone had experience with the new Greenleaf CommLib 4.0? I can't even get their demo winterm to run at 4800 baud without dropping characters. tnx, steve

comp.os.ms-windows.misc

My wife and I looked at, and drove one last fall. This was a 1992 model. It was WAYYYYYYYYY underpowered. I could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in Colorado at anything approaching highway speeds. I have read that the new 1993 models have a newer, improved hp engine. I'm quite serious that I laughed in the salesman face when he said "once it's broken in it will feel more powerful". I had been used to driving a Jeep 4.0L 190hp engine. I believe the 92's Land Cruisers (Land Yachts) were 3.0L, the sames as the 4Runner, which is also underpowered (in my own personal opinion). They are big cars, very roomy, but nothing spectacular.

rec.autos

Actually the govrnment is telling you that if you want to use their "product" the manufacturer (actually better yet, some "trusted" pair of escrow agencies) has to have the key. Most of us already are in this situation--our car makers have keys to our cars (or can get them quickly from the VIN number), and I have no doubt that if presented with a court order, they'd surrender copies to the government. Chances are that many locksmiths have the code numbers for house locks they've installed, and in an emergency can cut keys; thus they'd also provide such keys to the government pursuant to a court order. The state has no difficulty gaining access to your safe deposit box if they have a court order. Bad analogy. This is not to argue for or against the proposal, but rather better distinctions are required in thinking about it than "house key, safe-deposit keys, etc.". David

sci.crypt

Very simple. "X-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide against 2.5 million Muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the Turks and Kurds." After all, your criminal grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920. <C5yyBt.5zo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian) You must be a new 'Arromdian'. You are counting on ASALA/SDPA/ARF crooks and criminals to prove something for you? No wonder you are in such a mess. That criminal idiot and 'its' forged/non-existent junk has already been trashed out by Mutlu, Cosar, Akgun, Uludamar, Akman, Oflazer and hundreds of people. Moreover, ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminals are responsible for the massacre of the Turkish people that also prevent them from entering Turkiye and TRNC. SDPA has yet to renounce its charter which specifically calls for the second genocide of the Turkish people. This racist, barbarian and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government as merely a step on the road to said genocide. Now where shall I begin? #From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet) #Subject: YALANCI, LIAR : DAVIDIAN #Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar #Message-ID: <1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar: [some parts are deleted] - - - Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book, I could not find the original quota. But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows: ====================================================================== ====== QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT ! DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR. Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly... You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least we may save time by not dealing with your lies. And for the following line: I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you. I hope you will be drowned in your lies. Ahmet PARLAKBILEK #From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat Dogan) #Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu> n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]! o boy! Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not like them!!!...because they really exist...why? As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source given by Serdar Argic .. You couldn't reject it... Here we go again.. In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively! (Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of pages, please ask by sct) I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924) What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your groundless accussations, etc. [...] I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication) and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you are avoiding the real issues by twisting around.. Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication) First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You called Serdar Argic a liar!.. I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote... (I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.) And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book" (without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..).. (by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty well suited theories', as usual) And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number and page numbers again for the library use, which are: 949.6 R 198 and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215 Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is not possible..." ..If not, what is your point? Differences in the number of pages? Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934.. No need to use the same book size and the same letter charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!! The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year first published.. And you tried to hide the whole point.. the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given by Serdar Argic exist!! It was the issue, wasn't-it? you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway? You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap".. People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still has so many "craps" in the 1993. Any question? <C5wwqA.9wL@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian) Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with. You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact. I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship, that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists, the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian criminal organizations. Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up. Not a chance. Serdar Argic

talk.politics.mideast

Perhaps we ought not to have supported a known genocidist? Provided him with weapon systems, tactical support, technology, etc. We made Suddam Hussein. What did Bush call him? Oh yes, an ally and a freind. --- " I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."

alt.atheism

I think this is a weak argument. The fact is, there are *two* references to Jesus in _Antiquities of the Jews_, one of which has unquestionably at least been altered by Christians. Origen wrote, in the third century, that Josephus did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, while the long passage says the opposite. There is an Arabic manuscript of _Antiquities of the Jews_ which contains a version of the passage which is much less gung-ho for Jesus and may be authentic. There is no question that Origen, in the third century, saw a reference to Jesus in Josephus. There are no manuscripts of _Antiquities_ which lack the references. It is possible that it was fabricated out of whole cloth and inserted, but I don't think it's very likely--nor do I think there is a consensus in the scholarly community that this is the case. (I know G.A. Wells takes this position, but that's because he takes the very small minority view that Jesus never existed. And he is a professor of German, not of biblical history or New Testament or anything directly relevant to the historicity of Jesus.)

talk.religion.misc

Mr DeCenso, in spite of requiring Scholarly opinion on the hanging of Judas, rejects that the scholarly opinion of the those scholars and then rephrases those scholars opinion on the subject: and Actually, if you do further research as to the Greek word "apacgw," you will find that it does denote success. Those scholars did indeed have an excellent reason to assume that the suicide was successful. As I pointed out, I recently checked several Lexicons: "Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament," Louw and Nida "Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament" "Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament," Grimm "Word study Concordance," Tynsdale "A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Writings," Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich "The New Analytical Greek Lexicon," Perschbacher A couple simply stated "hanged oneself", and a couple were more explicit and stated that "apacgw" means specifically "kill yourself by hanging." A couple also noted that the meaning of one the root words for "apacgw" is "strangle, throttle or choke" (which pretty much invalidates the guy who suggested to David Joslin that Judas was hung upside down). One of the best references though, "Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament," not only stated the translation, it gave both the root words, the literal translation, related greek words which use the same roots, and also other presented specific examples of the word in greek literature (to give further context). The word "apagchw" has two root words: "gchw" is the "to strangle" root, and the root word "apo" means literally "away." This root words is included in words which denote a transition. It can mean a transition in place (eg: the greek word "apagello" means to send a message). "Apo" can also denote a change in state and specifically the change from life to death. Robinson specifically makes comparison to the word "apokteiuo," which means "to kill." In literal meaning the word "apacgw" means "to throttle, strangle to put out of the way," and implicitly denotes a change in life state (ie: away from life, to death). So while the word "apacgw" does mean "to hang," it specifically denotes a death as well. Thus Robinson is quite specific when he state that it means "to hang oneself, to end one's life by hanging." He then notes the the use of "apacgw" in Homers Odessy 19:230 to denote context. He presents that example of "apacgw" as being used to explicitly mean "suicide by hanging." Now since there is a perfectly good word for strangling, without the added denotation of "death," and as you insist that the Bible was written by God, and every word is precicely correct, you are stuck with the complete meaning of "apacgw" (ie: Since the word "apacgw" was used, then death is denoted as the result). By the way, I note that Mr DeCenso also presents an example of "apacgw": Note Mr DeCenso, as you say, the Septuagint was a translation from Hebrew to Greek, and you have not shown the original meaning of the Hebrew (ie" the the Hebrew say "and died"), and thus whether it was simply echoed in the Greek. It should also be pointed out that, regardless of the added "and died", the correct translation would still be "apacgw," as the man did indeed die from strangulation (redundant, but correct). Further, we have evidence that the Septuagint was repeatedly rewritten and reedited (which included versions which contradicted each other), and such editing was not even necessarily executed by Greeks. Thus I am not sure that you can use the Septuagint as it now stands, as a paragon of ancient greek. So, what you really need to prove your point Mr DeCenso, is an example, in ancient greek, of someone committing "apacgw" and surviving. Otherwise I would see you as simply making worthless assertions without corresponding evidence. Now I would note Mr DeCenso, that everytime I go out of my way to research it one of your apparently contrived exegisis, I pretty much find it false. Thus, I think that if you are going to add to the text, something over and above what the source clearly says, then you had better have an explicit Greek or historical source to justify it. By the way, as to Mr Rose's statement about trees around the Potter's Field: Unless Mr Rose can show that these trees are two thousand years old, or that there are 2000 year old stumps there, or has a 2 thousand year old description of the area which mentions such trees, then it is inappropriate for him to assert that the present placement of trees prove the location of the trees two thousand years ago (after all, things change). Now as to your other argument, ie: that the money Judas used is not the same as the 30 silvers: True, Peter (or the author of Acts) does not specifically call Judas' betrayal "an iniquity," but for that matter, neither does John specifically call Judas' actions "an iniquity" either. Further John 13:29 did not say that Judas took "Some thought that because, Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling him "Buy what we need for the feast"; or that he should give something to the poor, So after receiving the morsel he immediately went out, and it was night." Note that it is said that Judas left, it does not say that he took the money box. Thus when I see your explanation it still seems to me you would choose the a an unproven iniquity, mentioned by another author, in a different book, written at a different time, over the iniquity explicitly mentioned by the author of acts. I find this forced and contrived. Of course this particular argument becomes moot, since we have have seen evidence that "apacgw" means suicide. You see, since Judas' hanging was successful, he could not have spent the money mentioned in John 13:29, because Matthew and Mark explicitly say the betrayal was on the high holy day (ie: Passover), and thus he could not have spent the money before killing himself the next day. Thus the money which bought the "Field of Blood" would have to have been the 30 pieces of silver (Of course he got the 30 pieces of silver that night as well, and thus couldn't have spent that either. Oh dear, I believe that the house of cards is comming down). Maybe we should at this point, discuss now whether Jesus was crucified on Friday or Saturday as that is now part of the argument about Judas. By the way, as to where the prophesy of the Potter's field came from (ie: the mention of it in Matthew), you say: I am reminding you now to discuss it now. It's all part of the same verse we are discussing, and I wish you would quit procrastinating and sidestepping these issues. Later, Dave Butler A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. David Hume, Philosopher An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding

talk.religion.misc

What is address interliving? and memmory modules interliving? Thanks in advance for the info. Robert.

comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware

Pens-6 NJ Devils-6 FIRST PERIOD: SCORING: 1, Pittsburgh, Daniels(Needham, Tippett)4:14. 2, NJ Devils, C. Lemieux(Semak, Driver)10:19. 3, Pittsburgh, Stevens (Tocchet, Murphy)12:40ppg. 4, NJ Devils, Zelepukin(Driver, Niedermayer) 17:26. PENALTIES: PGH, Stevens(roughing)1:30. NJD, Pellerin-double minor(cross-checking)1:30. NJD, Zelepukin(tripping)7:21. NJD, Stasny(holding)11:15. PGH, Taglianetti(roughing)13:51. NJD, Lemieux (roughing)13:51. PGH, Jagr(tripping)15:23. SECOND PERIOD: SCORING: 5, Pittsburgh, Lemieux(Murphy, Tocchet)1:42. 6, NJ Devils, Semak(Lemieux, Zelepukin)2:27. 7, Pittsburgh, McEachern (Jagr, Barrasso)4:24. 8, NJD, Stevens(Guerin, Pellerin)5:45. 9, Pittsburgh, Lemieux(unassisted)12:40shg. 10, NJ Devils, Richer (Nicholls)15:53. 11, NJ Devils, Lemieux(Zelepukin)17:40. PENALTIES: PGH, Stevens(roughing)3:06. NJD, McKay(roughing)3:06. PGH, Mullen (hooking)10:42. PGH, Tocchet(roughing)12:06. NJD, Stevens(slashing) 12:06. NJD, Lemieux(unsportsmanlike conduct)12:40. PGH, U. Samuelsson(cross checking)20:00. PGH, Barrasso-double minor(spearing) served by McEachern, 20:00. NJD, Holik(cross checking)20:00. NJD, Lemieux(roughing)20:00. THIRD PERIOD: SCORING: 12, Pittsburgh, Mullen(Jagr, Lemieux)18:54. PENALTIES: NJD, Daneyko(interference)3:37. PGH, Stevens(roughing) 9:18. NJD, Holik(roughing)9:18. PGH, match penalty-game misconduct,9:50. NJD, Zelepukin(tripping)12:01. PGH, Stevens(roughing)18:41. NJD, Daneyko(roughing)18:41. OVERTIME: SCORING: No scoring. PENALTIES: No penalties. SHOTS ON GOAL: Pittsburgh: 9-11-8-2=30 NJ Devils: 12-15-9-3=39 GOALIES: Barrasso(39 shots, 33 saves. 43-14-5) Billington(30 shots, 24 saves) REF: Devorski Linesmen: Gauthier, Vines

rec.sport.hockey

I think he just wanted to get Henneman some work, because the Tigers had days off both the day before and the day after.

rec.sport.baseball

Last I had heard because of budget and such the Air Farce is the only "Space Command" left.. The rest missions were generally given to the Air Farce.. Probably a good reason for me to transfer from the Army Guard to the Air Guard.. I hate walking with a pack on my back, and how do you put on your application for a job as a kitchen worker, that you have done a lot of KP (Kitchen Police)..

sci.space

^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ Sounds pretty lame to me. Let me see if I understand now. Your "friends" charge you extra? Just how much do you usually have to pay for a little friendliness? Seems like you're being "serviced" by some "friendly" sales people.

rec.motorcycles

You must not have tried very hard. I just opend mine in about 2 seconds. Take a look on the bottom, it has a dial that turns to open much like the older ADB mouses used to have. It's a bit harder to turn at first but it is quite simple to open. Well, if you don't match up the pins correctly you will have some problems. A close look at the socket should give you an idea of the proper orientation of the chip.

comp.sys.mac.hardware

Hmmmm, I'm not sure this is true. According to Mike Lang and good old Stagie, along with the rest of the TV crews in pittsburgh, they winning streak could have stopped because it is a regular season mark. I would think this would also hold with an unbeaten streak for regular season games.

rec.sport.hockey

Some weeks ago, someone posted an article telling when and where a hamfest and computerfest was going to be help in Dayton, OH. Unfortunately, I lost the article and I was wondering if someone could repost it. I believe it was being held the 23,24,and 25 of this month at the Dayton convention center but I'm not sure. Any help and more details would be greatly appreciated.

sci.electronics

Called "gas". The balloons were in sufficiently low orbit that they experienced some air resistance. When they were finally punctured, this preasure (and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain a spherical shape against this resistance) caused them to catastrophically deflated. The large silvered shards that remained were easily visible for some time before reentry, though no longer useful as a passive transponder.

sci.space

It's in the FAQ. have fun gak

rec.sport.hockey

I have a vt200 and vt100 compatible terminal with 1200 external hyess modem amber screens 101 keyboard,cable make an offer 0

misc.forsale

Obviously, you really don't know. They *have* spoken out (cf Sec'y of State Christopher's recent trip to the ME), they have provided millions in aid, and they have participated in the airlifts to Sarajevo. They *would* supply military aid, if the UN would lift the embargo on arms sales. See above. (Kuwait has directly participated in the airlift of food to Sarajevo.) Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.

talk.politics.mideast

I have noticed this exact same phenomenon occurs with my LCIII. Perhaps it is a quirk of the new machines?

comp.sys.mac.hardware

Essential tremor is a progressive hereditary tremor that gets worse when the patient tries to use the effected member. All limbs, vocal cords, and head can be involved. Inderal is a beta-blocker and is usually effective in diminishing the tremor. Alcohol and mysoline are also effective, but alcohol is too toxic to use as a treatment. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gordon Banks N3JXP | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon."

sci.med

Sorry for posting this, but my e-mail keeps bouncing. Maybe it will help others here, anyway, and therefore I pray others will read this. It is actually a response from my Aunt, who has 5 kids, since I have none yet. I'm posting this for a good Christian relative who does not have e-mail access. Since this aunt and uncle have 5 kids I felt they would be more relevant than I, who have none (yet). 13-year-old (13YO) twins, 10YO boy, 6.5YO boy, 2YO girl I don't call it spanking, but they do, so yes, very rarely. I don't call it spanking because it's more of a reaction to something very dangerous, such as trying to stick their finger in a fan or running into the road. Maybe 3-4 times for each except for the 2YO girl, who has not been spanked yet. They call it that because it *does* hurt their feelings, and of course I give all the hugs and stuff to ensure they know they're still loved. No, that would be too painful. If it's too traumatic they never recall why they were punished. Besides, it must be immediate, and taking the time to go get a toolmeans you're not doing it right away, and that lessens the impact. It's very emotional for a child as it is - which is evidenced by the fact that a little slap on the rear - which hurts for perhaps 5 seconds - is called a spanking. Lots of logical consequences - for instance, when 4YO Matthew dared a good friend to jump out of his treehouse or he would push him out, I made sure they didn't play together for 5 days so he'd know that would make him lose friends very quickly. He's never done anything like that since. We also use time-out in their rooms - I use a timer so they don't keep arguing with me over leaving, since it's hard to argue with a macine. I will go to the closed door and tell them timeout won't be over until they calm down if they're too tantrumy. I use the top of the stairs when they're really young. 40 Bath, Ohio. It's right outside of Akron, in the northeast part of Ohio. No, and none of my kids would dream of it. I hope you can use this to teach all parents that physical punishment isn't always required - parents use that as an excuse to hit too hard. Lots of timeouts, same as I use. Our family and my husband's have never used spankings. In fact, my grandmother in law was one of 11 kids, and they were almost never spanked. This was around the turn of the century. And, none of us has ever been afoul of the law - man-made or God's law. Jesus says, referring to a small child whom he is holding, that "what ye do to the least of these, ye do also to me." The Bible also says in all things to be kind, and merciful, and especially loving. (Colossians 3:12-15.) There is no room for selfish anger, which I'll admit I've been tempted with at times. When I've felt like spanking hard in anger, maybe the kid deserved a little slap on the rear, but what I would have given would have been the devil's work. I could feel the temptation, and just angrily ordered the kid to his/her room and went to my room myself. After praying and asking God's forgiveness, I was much calmer, and did not feel like spanking, but felt that what I had done was enough punishment.

soc.religion.christian