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mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <93109.190117RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>>In article <mssC5qrrz.91H@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) says:
>>>
>>
>>1) why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get
>> lots of people to pay the price they're asking?
>I don't think that it is "obvious" that "lots" of people are willing
>to pay the price. I'm sure someone out there in net-land has some
>facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity
>sold. But even if the trends are relatively flat, you have to consider
>what is happening on a team-by-team basis.
Attendance in 1992 was down. By .3%. From an all-time record in 1991.
In people terms, attendance was down by 310,000 from 1991 to 1992. Two
franchises, the Dodgers and Mets, were down by 1,100,000 from 1991 to 1992.
Had either of them not been entirely awful, MLB would have set another
attendance record in 1992.
Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com
FORTRAN, "the infantile disorder", by now nearly 20 years old, is hopelessly
inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today: it is
now too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use.
- Edsger Dijkstra, "Selected Writings on Computing"
| 9rec.sport.baseball
|
I sent a version of this post out a while ago, but it was swallowed by
the void. My apologies if anyone ends up receiving it.
Sherri Nichols writes:
>In article <22APR93.04131972@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>>
>>>I just don't
>>>happen to think that the 11-15 minutes added to the length of games over
>>>the last 10 years has added anything interesting.
>>
>>How would you quantify that? I suppose an easy way would be to look at
>>attendance figures. Anyone got the numbers?
>
>Attendance figures aren't going to quantify anything about my personal
>opinion, which the above is clearly stated as. Add "to me" to the end of
>my sentence, if you're confused about what I meant.
Oh no, I wasn't confused -- I understood that it was your personal
opinion. But I thought we were discussing the need to shorten
games. The arguments which declare this need seem to hinge on
the assertion that long games bore people and otherwise discourage
them from going to the ballpark. I'd like to see if the increased
length of games has negatively affected attendance. If it has, then
there *is* a problem, and something should be done about it. If it
hasn't, then there *isn't* a problem, and there's no need to monkey
with things as they are.
Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
| 9rec.sport.baseball
|
Hi,
I found what I believe is an undocumented feature in my windows directory,
Microsoft Diagnostics, ver 2.00. I am specifically interested in a more
in depth explanation of the legends in the memory mapping report.
Thanks.
Chak Aw
chakaw@u.washington.edu
| 2comp.os.ms-windows.misc
|
davet@interceptor.cds.tek.com (Dave Tharp CDS) writes:
]In article <1076@rider.UUCP> joe@rider.cactus.org writes:
]>cookson@mbunix.mitre.org (Cookson) writes:
][bozo posts GIFS to rec.moto]
]>he and his postmaster are also gonna get 500 copies of the post in their
]>mailboxes.
]
] Hey, it's a great picture. You can't fault his taste, only his
]technique. Chill out and educate instead of getting your panties in a
]bunch.
ditto to you Dave. I'm using the picture as the bacground on my sun, and
I haven't sent a single message to the guy. looks like you get to keep the
panties.
--
Joe Senner -- joe@Rider.Cactus.Org Austin, TX
WARNING: DO NOT LOOK INTO LASER WITH REMAINING EYE.
-- Posted in a radioactive isotope research lab (from r.h.f)
| 8rec.motorcycles
|
Greetings,
Probably a tired old horse, but... maybe with a slightly different
twist. I wanted to know if there are any good English-language texts
for learning ancient Hebrew, and how these compare with German
educational texts qualitywise, if anybody has an idea. I can't figure
out if I should buy one here for later study or wait until I get back to
the U.S.
Something I find interesting about studying theology in Germany is the
fact that the students get their ancient language-learning out of the
way early [I'm not a theology student, but I spend a lot of time with
such folks] in their careers. They take the first two years or so to just
do Greek and Latin and Hebrew [possibly Aramaic, too--who knows].
What's it like at divinity schools or seminaries in the States? Is
there a lot of language instruction done? I really don't have a basis
for comparison.
Regards, Phil
--
Philip Sells Is anything too hard for the LORD?
k053730@hobbes.kzoo.edu --Gen. 18:14
[For better of worse, we don't have the tradition of classical
education in the U.S., so generally if a seminary believes students
should know Greek, they have to teach it. It's common for seminaries
to require at least a semester each of Hebrew and Greek, though of
course more is required for serious scholarship. --clh]
| 15soc.religion.christian
|
In <1qvh8tINNsg6@citation.ksu.ksu.edu> yohan@citation.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W
Newton) writes:
>In article <C5qGM3.DL8@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike
Cobb) writes:
>>Merely a question for the basis of morality
>>
>>Moral/Ethical behavior = _Societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_.
>I disagree with these. What society thinks should be irrelevant. What the
>individual decides is all that is important.
This doesn't seem right. If I want to kill you, I can because that is what I
decide?
>>
>>1)Who is society
>I think this is fairly obvious
Not really. If whatever a particular society mandates as ok is ok, there are
always some in the "society" who disagree with the mandates, so which
societal mandates make the standard for morality?
>>
>>2)How do "they" define what is acceptable?
>Generally by what they "feel" is right, which is the most idiotic policy I can
>think of.
So what should be the basis? Unfortunately I have to admit to being tied at
least loosely to the "feeling", in that I think we intuitively know some things
to be wrong. Awfully hard to defend, though.
>>
>>3)How do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position?
>By thinking for ourselves.
I might agree here. Just because certain actions are legal does not make them
"moral".
>>
>>MAC
>>--
>>****************************************************************
>> Michael A. Cobb
>> "...and I won't raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
>> class to pay for my programs." Champaign-Urbana
>> -Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
>>
>>With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar
deficits.
--
****************************************************************
Michael A. Cobb
"...and I won't raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs." Champaign-Urbana
-Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
Nobody can explain everything to anybody. G.K.Chesterton
| 0alt.atheism
|
\input amstex
\documentstyle{amsppt}
\pagewidth{6.5in}
\magnification=1200
\pageheight{7.5in}
\
\title {Letter to the Editor} \endtitle
\author {Matthew L. Fante} \endauthor
\date {April 20, 1993} \enddate
\endtopmatter
In a letter to the FBI, David Koresh said: ``Do you want me to
pull back the heavens and show you my anger?! ... fear me.'' The 51 day
standoff between federal agents and the Branch Davidians ended on April 19
in what appeared to be a mass suicide by fire. Now that the multi-million
dollar standoff is over, a few things remain: cleaning up the mess, and
assigning blame.
\
From the onset of the April 19 tear gas attacks by federal agents, President
Clinton already started passing the buck by saying ``Talk to the attorney
general or the FBI... I knew it was going to be done, but the decision was
{\it entirely theirs}. {\it They} made the tactical decision.'' Enter
Attorney General Janet Reno. After most of the Branch Davidians died,
Reno said she took ``full responsibility'' for the decision. ``I approved
the plan'' she said adding that she ``did not advise him [Clinton] as to the
details.'' In fact, she told Clinton that it was ``the best way to go.''
As the fire was roaring through the Branch Davidian's compound Clinton said
that he was ``deeply sadened by the loss of life'' and in the same breath that
``the law enforcement agencies involved in the Waco siege recommended the
course of action pursued today.'' Later he went on to say ``I stand by that
[Reno's] decision.''
\
How did this all begin? At 0930 on February 28 agents of the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) launched a full-scale, high-profile
assault on the Branch Davidian's compound. This raid was much
more than an assault on a group suspected of possessing illegal weapons. The
assault was a planned media circus used as a propaganda device of the BATF
to show their might and just purpose.
\
At the onset of the ``no-knock'' raid, gaggles of heavily armed BATF agents
made their way inside the compound without identifying themselves or state
that they had a warrant until long after the shooting began.
Silently, the agents made their way to the compound's buildings and started
their ``search'' by charging at the buildings and throwing concussion grenades
and ordering the cult members to come out of the buildings.
\
If unknown persons dressed in black ninja costumes and combat fatigues
were to attack you, throwing grenades and brandishing firearms, would you not
assume that these people are criminals and attempt to defend yourself? The
tactics employed by the BATF provoked the battle.
\
The initial assualt by the BATF was not successful. Unfortunately, lives
were lost on both sides. But, had the assault been a success, the liberal
media would have praised the BATF by showing the footage of BATF agents
carting away a bunch of gun-wielding religious nuts. Of course, any
violation of the cult's rights would have been overlooked and the media
would proclaim America's fortune in having super-cop organizations like the
BATF that can systematically ``take out'' terroristic groups such as the
Branch Davidians.
\
As far as I can see, the BATF and the FBI dropped the ball - just like
Philadelphia did in the 1985 MOVE crisis which left 11 dead, 250 homeless,
and a city block razed.
It appears that the BATF has adopted the shoot-first tactic of no-knock
raids to execute search warrants. Don't let the BATF convince you that
the no-knock raid was justified. No-knock assaults make sense when looking
for, say, drugs that can easily be hidden or disposed of in a few seconds.
The BATF was looking for illegal weapons, not drugs that could be hidden or
flushed down the toilet in a matter of a few seconds. What ever happened to
``This is the police! You are surrounded...''? {\it This policy of no-knock
raids, by federal and local agencies, should be restricted}. Further, the use
of military firepower against presumed innocent citizens is a very scary idea,
and is why the Davidians were justified in using lethal force to ensure that
their fourth ammendment rights [``the right of the people to be secure in
their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches
and seizures''] are not denied.
\
\
\
\noindent Matthew L. Fante \newline
\end
--
____________________________________________________________________
Matthew Fante
mlf3@Lehigh.EDU For a good prime call 2^756839 - 1
410 Webster Street a public key is available
Bethlehem PA 18015 upon request
| 18talk.politics.misc
|
In article <sehari.733764410@vincent1.iastate.edu>, sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari) writes:
|> In <C4truE.6AA@ms.uky.edu> msunde01@mik.uky.edu (Mark Underwood) writes:
|>
|> >I am somewhat familiar with the dB measurements as they apply to
|> >electrical circuits - i.e. it is the gain of (for example) an amplifier
|> >measured on a logarithmic scale. However, this requires that you have a
|> >reference value: i.e the ouput is +20dB (e.g.) with respect to the input
|> >signal.
<stuff deleted>
|> What you actually talking about here is dBm and not dB. However, the terms
|> are used loosely by most people. ``dBm'' is power with respact to 1mW, whereas
|> dB is a ratio. Now, like these two English statement:
|>
|> 1. I am doing well.
|> 2. I am doing good.
|>
|> Similarly, people usually use dB for dBm. Another common mistake is spelling
|> ``db'' instead of ``dB'' as you did in your article. See the ``B'' is for
|> ``Bell'' company, the mother of AT&T and should be capitalized.
|>
|> With highest regards,
|> Babak Sehari.
Good gravy! Decibels are all *ratios.* The question that remains in
any ratio is the reference unit used. Sometimes, this will be a reference
power, such as 1 milliwatt (given a certain circuit impedance which
should also be included in the fine print or known, like 50 ohms
in an RF circuit of that impedance), leading to an accepted
notation of dBm. Maybe it might be dBV, disregarding the impedance of
the circuit and power developed, using 1 volt as reference *amplitude*
(rather than reference power). Or, it might have an arbitrary or omitted
reference that is not included in the notation, leading to just plain dB.
So. look at it this way--'dB' has an implied reference while notation
such as 'dBm' has an explicit reference.
For power:
dB = 10*log( P(measured)/P(reference) )
For amplitude
dB = 20*log( A(measured)/A(reference) )
'B' is for bel, which is a standard term for a log ratio to the base
10, named after Alexander Graham Bell. A 'deci' Bel is 1/10 of a bel.
It has nothing to do with the Bell Telephone company except for
the common founder's name. The small 'd'/large 'B' is per SI notation
convention. I don't know anyone that's been crucified for messing it up.
Common references for audio are:
0 dBm = 1 milliwatt across 600 ohms
0 dBV = 1 volt
0 VU (a zero on the VU meter) = +4 dBm (pro gear line level)
0 VU = -10dBV (consumer gear line level)
Often times, a power amp VU meter will be aligned using
the rated power of the amp as the 0 dB point. It is all
done to whatever reference is reasonable for the application
or moment.
Note that in a circuit with a given (and maybe unknown) linear
impedance, if the amplitude goes up so many decibels, the
power will also increase the same amount. This proof can be done
with the above two identities and ohm's law.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Medin Phone: (205) 730-3169 (w)
SSD--Networking (205) 837-1174 (h)
Intergraph Corp.
M/S GD3004 Internet: dtmedin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com
Huntsville, AL 35894 UUCP: ...uunet!ingr!b30!catbyte!dtmedin
******* Everywhere You Look (at least around my office) *******
* The opinions expressed here are mine (or those of my machine)
| 12sci.electronics
|
In article <C5JGC4.AJJ@dove.nist.gov> keys@starchild.ncsl.nist.gov (Lawrence B. Keys) writes:
This isn't anything new. Back in 1985 I was driving under a high
overpass at night on I-805 in San Diego when I caught a glimpse of
someone on the overpass. As I passed under a rock slammed against the
metal between the winshield and right front window. My girlfriend was
in the seat next to it. I called the police from the next exit, but I
doubt if they were found.
About five years ago in San Diego someone was put into a coma from a
brick being thrown through his sunroof as he was driving and
subsequently crashed. I don't think he ever came out of the coma, and I
haven't heard anything about it for a couple years.
>I know that this isn't the group for it, but since you brought it up,
>does anyone have any idea why they haven't "bombed" the Waco cult?
Probably because there are many children there. Also the minor fact
that other than defending themselves from 100 some people attacking them
they haven't threatened or attacked anyone outside the compound in
years. Being a promiscuous religious nut does not constitute grounds
for a mass murder of Koresh and his followers.
Sorry for posting this to this group, but I thought the previous post
needed a rebuttal. If you follow-up to this portion please cross-post
and direct follow-ups to a more appropriate newsgroup.
--
====== Boyd Johnson nosc!spectra.com!johnson San Diego, California ======
Intermittent newsfeed at best and only to selected groups.
My opinions certainly don't match those of my employer.
| 7rec.autos
|
In article <2BCC892B.21864@ics.uci.edu> bvickers@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:
>In article <115290@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>>Well, seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by Khomeini
>>would not be relevant to you. I can understand your fear of persecution
>>and I share it even more than you (being muslim), however Rushdie's
>>behavior was not completely excusable.
>Why should a fatwa issued by Khomeini be relevant to anyone who
>doesn't live in Iran?
Issued by Khomeini it shouldn't be relevant to anyone. But issued
by an honest and learned scholar of Islam it would be relevant to
any muslim as it would be contrary to Islamic law which all muslims
are required to respect.
> Who is it that decides whether Rushdie's behavior is excusable?
Anyone sufficiently well versed in Islamic law and capable of reasoning,
if you are talking about a weak sense of "excuse." It depends on what
sense of "excuse" you have in mind.
> And who cares if you think it is inexcusable?
Only someone who thinks my opinion is important, obviously.
Obviously you don't care, nor do I care that you don't care.
Gregg
| 0alt.atheism
|
In article <93104.233239ISSBTL@BYUVM.BITNET>, <ISSBTL@BYUVM.BITNET> writes:
|> I would like to make everyone aware that in winning the NL West the Atlanta
|> Braves did not lead wire-to-wire. Through games of 4/14/93 the Houston
|> Astros are percentage points ahead of the "unbeatable" Braves.
And they deserve to be, if for no other reason than salvaging a little of the
honor of the NL West. The supposed strongest division in baseball lost 6 of 7
to the East yesterday, with only the Astros prevailing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length
paula@koufax.cv.hp.com Paul Andresen Hewlett-Packard (503)-750-3511
home: 3006 NW McKinley Corvallis, OR 97330 (503)-752-8424
A SABR member since 1979
| 9rec.sport.baseball
|
>
> In article <WHALEY.93Apr15103931@sigma.kpc.com> whaley@sigma.kpc.com (Ken Whaley) writes:
> > Actually, I must also ask the FAQ's #1 most popular reason why graphics
> > don't show up: do you wait for an expose event before drawing your
> > rectangle?
>
> Suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped Window that contains
> Xlib graphics. A button widget, when pressed, will cause a new item
> to be drawn in the Window. This action clearly should not call XCopyArea()
> (or equiv) directly; instead, it should register the existence of the new
> item in a memory structure and let the expose event handler take care
> of rendering the image because at that time it is guaranteed that the
> Window is mapped.
>
> The problem, of course, is that no expose event is generated if the window
> is visible and mapped. Do you know the best way to "tickle" a window so
> that the expose event handler will be invoked to draw this new item?
I specifically made the above comment assuming that perhaps the code fragment
came from a simple "open-draw-quit" client.
As per your question: why not have the button handler add the object, and
then call the "window_redraw()" (or whatever) directly? Although, depending
on how the overall application is structured, there may be no problem with
rendering the object directly in response to the button press.
Ken
--
Kenneth Whaley (408) 748-6347
Kubota Pacific Computer, Inc. Email: whaley@kpc.com
2630 Walsh Avenue
Santa Clara, CA. 95051
| 5comp.windows.x
|
Now the bike is off warranty, I finally replaced the stock items on my
Softail Custom with the title ones. Installation was pretty easy in
both cases, even for a fairly non-mechanical chemist type dude like me!
I discovered the limitations of my tool collection, but had fun buying
and making the requisite tools!
MC Ignitions Power Arc II Single Fire Ignition: easy to install, but
read the wiring diagram carefully! Setting the static timing was a
piece of cake. Once installed, I have found easier starting, smoother
idle, and more power, plus a more satisfying (to me) bass note in the
exhaust register...a lovely whompa-whompa-whompa idle :-)
The folks at MC Ignitions were great in answering my dumb questions on
the phone..... a very helpful bunch of guys with a great product.
S&S Super E Carb: installation easy, once I hacked down an Allen wrench
to a small anough reach to get at the intake manifold bolts. Tunes like
a dream, just like they say! The stock carb (non-adjustable) was so
lean that it was gasping and spluttering for gas sometimes, and even
backfiring into the intake manifold. The Super E is terrific, no
hesitation in any gear, and my plugs are a lovely tan color with no
need to rejet from the factory settings!
I know this may not seem like much to you grizzled veteran wrenchers
out there, but I had my bike in so many pieces this weekend I began to
get worried. But it all went back together again, and runs like a
dream, so I am feeling pretty happy.
Now all I have to do is install my BUB pipes and try to pass the NH
Noise Gestapo Test!
Russ Hughes '92 FXSTC DoD# 6022(10E20)
"Love ...yeah, that's the feeling you get when you like something
as much as your motorcycle."
--Sonny Barger
| 8rec.motorcycles
|
As of yet, there has been no description of the general principles
behind the Clipper proposal. For example, is this a public key system
or a private key system? If the latter, then I don't see how the
system could work (given that the keys are tied to the device and
not the person).
Further, the escrowed 80-bit keys are split into two 40-bit chunks.
I would guess that the availability of one of these 40-bit chunks
and a reasonable key-search machine, would allow you to read the traffic.
I'm not suggesting that this is a deliberate weakness of the system,
but it does make you think. Of course, this is easily fixable by
giving out two 80-bit chunks which could be x-ored to generate the
real 80-bit key.
Philip
| 11sci.crypt
|
In article <737318846lance.lance@lancea.actrix.gen.nz> lance@lancea.actrix.gen.nz (Lance Andrewes) writes:
>How does Print Manager deal with multiple printers?
>>> We're planning... <<<
>...to print to two "printers" from an application. One will be a
>real printer, and the other a...
>>> fax program. <<<
>... Will Print Manager
>just deal with the jobs one at a time, or will it feed to both
>printers at once?
>
Please research carefully. Just because a fax modem behaves like
a printer on a "local" machine, doesn't guarantee functionality
when a "local" machine has fax software printing to a "remotely
installed" fax card. I tried this with Workgroups and the
fax software didn't like it at all. Could have been WinFAX's
peculiarisms but I don't think so. A lot of special hardware
interaction takes place internally. In my case, a FAX manager
program merely "intercepts" the print job and spools it to
it's own directory, not print manager's spool directory. To
software, it appears the job was "printed". Print Manager
plays NO part in the handling of the actual process.
Pardon me if I've incorrectly assumed this is what you were
up to. A truely network-aware fax-modem will most likely be
required, or a lot of weird setup and tinkering.
Good luck.
| 2comp.os.ms-windows.misc
|
This is yet for a friend again.
EMS Freq. Shifter. (The machine that made those 3-D swirling guitar effects
way back in the 70's.)
Spacial panner with harmonic shifting. Very rare - A collectors Item. This
is the last unit EMS ever made. Rack mountable. Mono in, Up/Down signals out
with seperate Pan out and sine/unsine voltage outs. VCO input too to control
LFO. If interested contact Kevin before 9 pm PST (California) at 818-362-7883
and make an offer.
Do not reply to this account.
Have a nice day
__________________________________________________________________________
| / |\
| H E \ Y B E R |/ E N [ xorcist@cyberden.sf.ca.us ]
The CyberDen - Public Access Waffle Usenet System - 415/472-5527
| 6misc.forsale
|
nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
>However, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games.
>You are the first person ( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy.
>I have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the
>ESPN crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about it. I have never
>been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and
>shouting "Hurry up!" If I cough up big bucks for a ticket, I don't mind
>a game that last more than 2:10. I really don't understand it.
I agree with Nick. What's the big deal about long games? If you want
to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch. And yes,
baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.
I suspect that a lot of the complaining about long games, especially when
it's coming from TV people, has to something to do with advertising.
Probably time "wasted" in the middle of an inning, say by a batter
stepping out of the box to fiddle with his gloves, or by a pitcher
walking around behind the mound trying to collect his thoughts, could
otherwise be sold as advertising time.
Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
| 9rec.sport.baseball
|
I have a Headland Technologies Video Seven VRAMII board that only
came with 512K, at the time this was ok but...
I need info or help with upgrading this board to 1 Mbyte. There are
2 rows of pins over the VRAM chips, I think for a piggyback board
of VRAM. I would like to hear from anyone that may be able to help
me upgrade this board. Maybe someone from Headland who maybe read-
ing this has one of these piggyback boards just laying around, please
please please!
Does anyone know of where I could maybe buy the upgrade for this? I
would sure love to use this in 800X600-256 color mode but for the time
being, I can only get 3/4 of the screen with the bottom part a white
strip, obviously because of the missing VRAM, actually I'm surprised
it even works to this degree at all!
As a last resort, I will wind up selling this board :^( and probably be
getting a 1 Mb-ET4000 based "dumb frame buffer". This VRAMII was Editors
Choice in the 9/24/91 PC Mag. So if anyone has any info, please email
or as a last resort post to this group. Thanks in advance.
| 3comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
|
In <1993Apr17.032828.14262@clarinet.com>, brad@clarinet.com sez:
>
>Do the police normally reveal every tap they do even if no charges are
>laid? In many ways, it would be a positive step if they had to.
>Judges set time limits on warrants, I assume.
Under the relevant federal law, 18 USC sec. 2518(8)(d), the
authorizing judge must notify the targets within 90 days after the tap
period (with extensions) expires. This is the "normal" practice.
Of course, no wiretap law would be complete without the Unless Clause,
which in subsection 8(d) reads like this: "On an ex parte showing
[i.e., by the gov't without opposition, since that would obviously
involve notice to the targets] of good cause to a judge of competent
jurisdiction the serving of the inventory required by this subsection
[the order itself; dates of interception; etc.] *may be postponed*"
(emphasis added).
[Followups directed to a few select groups.]
--
MORAL: Always Choose the Right Sort of Parents
Before You Start in to be Rough
- George Ade
Mark Eckenwiler eck@panix.com ...!cmcl2!panix!eck
| 11sci.crypt
|
In article <1qt3vd$802@morrow.stanford.edu> HK.MLR@forsythe.stanford.edu (Mark Rogowsky) writes:
>Second Wave makes NuBus card cages that work on the PDS slots of at
>least three Macs: the SE/30, IIsi and Centris 610. They have not, to
>my knowledge, announced such a device for the LCII, but they could
>make one, technologically.
>
>The PDS card that goes to the cage simply needs the NuBus controller
>circuitry present on NuBus Macs.
>
>Why, though, does anyone care about this? dgr has a three-PDS
>adapter for the LC/LCII. They will soon have one for the LCIII. PDS
>is better than NuBus for most people in most applications. Granted,
>there are more NuBus cards. But, most applications that require a
>NuBus card (like full-motion video capture) shouldn't be done on an
>LC/LCII/LCIII anyway.
>
>Mark
NuBus is a much more robust system for system for installing multiple
cards without configuration problems. I know that when I was checking
into expasion options for an SI there were a number of PDS video cards
that would not work with certian Dual slot cache adapters.
_Erik Speckman
| 4comp.sys.mac.hardware
|
In article <C5JIF8.I4n@boi.hp.com> slack@boi.hp.com (David Slack) writes:
>The idea of the card is bull in and of its self, but I'm curious to know, do
>they plan on making it a requirement to *always* have it on you, or is it
>only going to be required to be *presented* when trying to ge medical aid?
This, at least, has already been determined: The Blue Cross medical
coverage for all federal employees is a good model for a future
national system. To get emergency medical care, anyone so insured
must always carry their Blue Cross card. Before entering a hospital,
you must notify Blue Cross, or they will refuse to pay your bills.
In an emergency, where you must be treated before notifying them,
you must inform them within 24 hours or (if you are unable to do
so for medical reasons) the hospital must. Failing to do so within
24 hours means they will not cover the hospitalization. In you need
your card to notify them (and without the card, the hospital certainly
wouldn't know they had to.) Therefore, you are required to carry
the card at all times, or do without emergency medical coverage.
Frank Crary
CU Boulder
| 16talk.politics.guns
|
Is there any judgement call on the part of the scorer for sac fly RBI's?
This is the situation that brought the question up:
The Red Sox were up in the bottom of the 9th by a score of 5-1. The Mariners
had the bases loaded with 1 out. The batter hits a fly to center, which the
fielder catches. The runner at third tags and scores without a throw.
Now, without a judgement call (and I don't think there is one), this is an RBI
for the batter. It seems to me that a better name for this would be "defensive
indifference", since it doesn't really matter whether the guy at third scores
at that point. (I know, I can think of several "If the Mariners stole third
and second, which opening the base would allow, and then the batter hit a
grounder which the third baseman gets deep in the hole between himself and
third, he wouldn't have a play at home, third, or second for the out, and
maybe he therefore can't make the throw to first to get the last out, etc...
scenarios, too. But does it _really_ matter if this guy scores this way when
you're down by 4? If the tying run is going to score, so is the guy on third.)
The point is that the batter (IMO) shouldn't get "credit" (an RBI) for utterly
failing to do his job - which at this point is to get a hit or a walk, not
trade an out for one run. What do you guys think?
Regards,
Burke (Charles S. Homan)
choman@wpi.wpi.edu
Go Red Sox!!! (11-3)
Go Rocket! (3-0)
| 9rec.sport.baseball
|
acollins@uclink.berkeley.edu (Andy Collins) writes:
> One not-so-quick question to throw out there for you guys...
>
> For our class project, we need to design and build a power supply
> to the following specs:
>
> Voltatge: adjustable from 1-12V
> Current: *limited* at 1A
>
> Voltage must stay within 2% of designated value for I from 0-1A
> AC ripple less than 5 mV (rms)
>
> Of course, we can't just use an adjustable voltage, current-limiting
> regulator chip ;^)
>
> Our problem is with the current limiting (i.e. we've found stuff to
> do the rest of the parts of the circuit). What the supply must do,
> if presented with a load which would draw more than 1A, given the
> supply voltage, is reduce the voltage so that the current will equal
> one amp. Thus, if we were to short the thing with the ammeter, we
> should read one amp. If we measure the current through a 1 ohm
> resistor at 12V, we should read one amp (and the output voltage, by
> necessity, must be 1V.
>
> The only basic idea we have seen for the current limiter involves
> a circuit which will pull current off of the base of the output
> power transistor, and therefore reduce the output.
>
> So, does anybody have any ideas we could work from?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Andy Collins, KC6YEY
> acollins@uclink.berkeley.edu
>
> ps: If anybody wants to flame this as a stupid project, I agree fully,
> but I still have to do it, its graded ;^)
>
You can design for ramp shutoff, brick-wall current limit or even
fold-back cutoff....sounds like you want "BRICK-WALL" current limit.
Your lead is correct to pull down the bias to the series regulator base
drive. In order to get the brick -wall, you need enough voltage gain on
the current sensor. Normally a darlington on the current sensing
resistor will be adequate, but for infinite gain.. use an op amp to sense
the current releative to a stable voltage reference and use a driver to
turn off the base bias on the series-pass transistor. Phase compensation
may be necessary with this closed loop control system if yopu have more
than 180 degrees phase shift in your feedabck circuit at unity gain OK??
dino@inqmind.bison.mb.ca
The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba 204 488-1607
| 12sci.electronics
|
MLB Standings and Scores for Friday, April 23rd, 1993
(including yesterday's games)
NATIONAL WEST Won Lost Pct. GB Last 10 Streak Home Road
San Francisco Giants 10 06 .625 -- 7-3 Won 1 05-02 05-04
Houston Astros 08 06 .571 1.0 7-3 Won 1 02-04 06-02
Atlanta Braves 09 08 .529 1.5 4-6 Lost 1 04-03 05-05
San Diego Padres 06 08 .429 3.0 5-5 Won 1 03-04 03-04
Los Angeles Dodgers 06 10 .375 4.0 3-7 Lost 3 03-03 03-07
Colorado Rockies 05 09 .357 4.0 3-7 Lost 1 03-03 02-06
Cincinnati Reds 05 10 .333 4.5 4-6 Lost 1 02-04 03-06
NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies 10 04 .714 -- 7-3 Lost 1 06-02 04-02
Montreal Expos 09 06 .600 1.5 7-3 Won 4 06-03 03-03
St. Louis Cardinals 09 06 .600 1.5 6-4 Won 1 06-03 03-03
Pittsburgh Pirates 08 07 .533 2.5 5-5 Won 1 04-04 04-03
Chicago Cubs 07 07 .500 3.0 5-5 Lost 1 04-04 03-03
New York Mets 07 07 .500 3.0 5-5 Lost 1 03-05 04-02
Florida Marlins 05 10 .333 5.5 3-7 Won 1 03-06 02-04
AMERICAN WEST Won Lost Pct. GB Last 10 Streak Home Road
California Angels 09 04 .692 -- 7-3 Won 3 06-02 03-02
Texas Rangers 08 05 .615 1.0 5-5 Lost 2 04-02 04-03
Minnesota Twins 08 06 .571 1.5 6-4 Won 1 05-04 03-02
Chicago White Sox 07 07 .500 2.5 5-5 Won 2 02-03 05-04
Seattle Mariners 07 08 .467 3.0 4-6 Won 2 05-03 02-05
Oakland Athletics 05 08 .385 4.0 3-7 Lost 2 05-04 00-04
Kansas City Royals 05 10 .333 5.0 5-5 Lost 1 03-06 02-04
AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox 11 05 .688 -- 7-3 Lost 2 06-01 05-04
Detroit Tigers 09 05 .643 1.0 8-2 Won 2 07-01 02-04
New York Yankees 08 07 .533 2.5 5-5 Won 2 03-03 05-04
Toronto Blue Jays 08 07 .533 2.5 5-5 Won 1 04-02 04-05
Milwaukee Brewers 05 07 .417 4.0 4-6 Lost 1 02-02 03-05
Cleveland Indians 05 11 .313 6.0 2-8 Lost 4 04-03 01-08
Baltimore Orioles 04 09 .308 5.5 4-6 Lost 2 02-05 02-04
YESTERDAY'S SCORES
(IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)
NATIONAL LEAGUE AMERICAN LEAGUE
San Diego Padres 2 Boston Red Sox 0
Philadelphia Phillies 1 Seattle Mariners 7
Los Angeles Dodgers 1 Chicago White Sox 3
Montreal Expos 3 Baltimore Orioles 2
Cincinnati Reds 4 Milwaukee Brewers 4
Pittsburgh Pirates 5 Minnesota Twins 5
Atlanta Braves 3 Toronto Blue Jays 6
Florida Marlins 4 Kansas City Royals 3
Colorado Rockies 2 Cleveland Indians 0
St. Louis Cardinals 5 California Angels 8
San Francisco Giants 13 New York Yankees 5
New York Mets 4 Oakland Athletics 1
Chicago Cubs IDLE Detroit Tigers IDLE
Houston Astros IDLE Texas Rangers IDLE
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez | RAMS | | /.\ ******* _|_|_ / | LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU | KINGS | |__ | | DODGERS _|_|_ | | RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU | ANGELS |____||_|_| ******* | | |___| CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 9rec.sport.baseball
|
Shawn FitzGerald (chungkuo@umcc.umcc.umich.edu) wrote:
: Is there a fix for this? We have a Quadra 900 that will NOT finish startup
: unless there is a monitor connected. This would be no problem, but since
: we're running it as a file server, there is no need to have a monitor
: connected all the time.
I've seen a control panel made for this. I don't remember the name, where I
saw it, or on what Quadra models it will work. But I do know it exists :)
/Mats
--
Mats Bredell Mats.Bredell@udac.uu.se
Uppsala University Computing Center (UDAC) Ph: +46 18 187817
Department of medical systems Fax: +46 18 187825
Sweden Think straight - be gay!
| 4comp.sys.mac.hardware
|
---
Hello!
We want to configure our X11R5 sytem (i486 33Mhz running BSD-like UNIX)
comming up with a chooser menu with different machines on it (works) an then
connect to them. But the only connection works is localhost!
An 'X -indirect <machine>' works very well!
The configuration:
- starting the 'xdm' at boot time with no servers specified
in Xservers
- starting the X-server at boot time with X -indirect localhost
---> the chooser menu appears with the machines named in
Xacces bye
'* CHOOSER <machine1> <machine2> ... BROADCAST
- the number of users on this machines and the load is
displayed correct
- selecting an other machine than my own host the X-server
starts and nothing happens, after a time out the CHOOSER menu
appears again.
I know the xdm bug in X11R4, but all machines running X11R5
Please help
Lars
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lars Koeller E-Mail: uphya001@odie.Uni-Bielefeld.de
Universitaet Bielefeld (Germany) uphya001@dave.hrz.Uni-Bielefeld.de
Fakultaet fuer Physik / D0-231 Phone: +49 521-106-5375
Universitaetsstr. 25 Fax: +49 521-106-5244
4800 Bielefeld 1 Telex: 932 362
| 5comp.windows.x
|
kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>No, that's just what you thought the theory meant. While all humans
>>are generally capable of overpowering their instincts, it does not
>>follow that those who do this often are necessarily more intelligent.
>Ok, so why aren't animals "generally capable of overpowering their instincts"?
Good question. I'm sure some biologist could answer better than I,
but animals brains are just set up differently.
Animals *can* be trained, but if they're instincts serve them well, there is
no reason to contradict them.
keith
| 0alt.atheism
|
boone@psc.edu (Jon Boone) writes:
>On Mon, 12 Apr 93 00:53:14 GMT in <<1993Apr12.005314.5700@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>> Greg Spira (gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
>:>Does anybody in the Pittsburgh area know why Mike LaValliere was released?
>:>Last year I kept saying that Slaught should get the bulk of the playing time,
>:>that he was clearly the better player at this point, but Leyland insisted on
>:>keeping a pretty strict platoon. And now he is released? That doesn't
>:>make any sense to me.
>Greg,
> The story goes like this:
> Spanky is too slow! If he were quicker, he would still be here.
>But with Slaught and Tom Prince, they didn't want to lose Prince in order
>to bring up that 11th pitcher. Slaught is about as good as Spanky and
>Prince is coming along nicely!
Well, my question still hasn't been answered: if Spanky was bad enough to
release this year, why did he get so much playing time last year? Yes, I know
he was part of a platoon, and that's why he got more playing time than
Slaught, but that doesn't answer the question. If Slaught was so obviously
better this year, wasn't this also obvious last year, and shouldn't he
have been taking away some of Spanky's playing time against righties?
Greg
| 9rec.sport.baseball
|
1993 World Championships in Germany:
====================================
Group A standings (Munich) Group B standings (Dortmund)
-------------------------- ----------------------------
GP W T L GF-GA P GP W T L GF-GA P
Sweden 1 1 0 0 1-0 2 Germany 1 1 0 0 6-0 2
Italy 1 0 1 0 2-2 1 Czech republic 1 0 1 0 1-1 1
Russia 1 0 1 0 2-2 1 USA 1 0 1 0 1-1 1
Canada 0 0 0 0 0-0 0 Finland 0 0 0 0 0-0 0
Switzerland 0 0 0 0 0-0 0 France 0 0 0 0 0-0 0
Austria 1 0 0 1 0-1 0 Norway 1 0 0 1 0-6 0
April 18: Italy - Russia 2-2 Norway - Germany 0-6
Sweden - Austria 1-0 USA - Czech republic 1-1
April 19: Canada - Switzerland 15:30
Russia - Austria Finland - France 20:00
April 20: Sweden - Canada Czech republic - Germany 15:30
Switzerland - Italy Finland - USA 20:00
April 21: Germany - France 15:30
Italy - Sweden Czech republic - Norway 20:00
April 22: Switzerland - Russia USA - France 15:30
Austria - Canada Norway - Finland 20:00
April 23: Switzerland - Austria Germany - Finland 20:00
April 24: Russia - Sweden Czech republic - France 15:30
Canada - Italy USA - Norway 20:00
April 25: Sweden - Switzerland Finland- Czech republic 15:30
Russia - Canada Germany - USA 20:00
April 26: Austria - Italy France - Norway 20:00
PLAYOFFS:
=========
April 27: Quarterfinals
A #2 - B #3 15:30
A #3 - B #2 20:00
April 28: Quarterfinals
A #1 - B #4 15:30
A #4 - B #1 20:00
April 29: Relegation
A #5 - B #6 15:30
A #6 - B #5 20:00
April 30: Semifinals
A #1/B #4 - A #3/B #2 15:30
A #4/B #1 - A #2/B #3 20:00
May 1: Relegation 14:30
Bronze medal game 19:00
May 2: FINAL 15:00
--
((\\ //| Staffan Axelsson
\\ //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se
\\_))//-|| r.s.h. contact for Swedish hockey
| 10rec.sport.hockey
|
In <1r90ub$jiq@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aj359@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher C. Morton) writes:
|I saw in the "Cleveland Plain Dealer" this morning a report that the CEV
|crew threw CS *CANNISTERS* into the Davidian house. I KNOW from
|personal experience that burning type devices start fires. I certainly
|put out enough of them in the pine forests of Ft. Benning in the summer
|of '80. I'd like to know if they really threw burning CS grenades.
It has been reported that the Davidians were using straw to baricade the
windows and to provide insulation. With all that straw around, I would be
very surprised if the CS cannisters did not start a fire.
--
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
| 16talk.politics.guns
|
In <VFq32B2w165w@sms.business.uwo.ca> j3david@sms.business.uwo.ca (James David) writes:
>>If Gilmour was taken completely by surprise, as Gainey was, then
>>yeah, I would have to say that Doug wasn't playing
>>"technically" smart hockey. In any case, to claim as Greg did,
>>that Gainey *never* made a technical mistake is absolutely
>>ludicrous.
>
>Later on, in your posting, you make reference to "putting words
>into other people's mouths"...I would suggest that your last
>paragraph can only be interpreted in one way...namely, that I,
>along with Greg, claim that Gainey never made a technical
>mistake. If you actually read what I've written, you will find
>that I make no such claim...soooo, if logic serves me well,
>you're contradicting yourself.
Nonsense. I quite clearly state that it was Greg that made the claim
that Gainey never made an error. And he made the claim. Read below.
From rec.sport.hockey Thu Apr 15 21:22:49 1993
From: gballent@hudson.UVic.CA (Greg Ballentine)
Message-ID: <1993Apr15.160450.27799@sol.UVic.CA>
[nonsense deleted]
Gainey is the best defensive forward ever. I stand by that assessment.
He was a very good player who belongs in the hall of fame. Did you
ever watch him play? He never made a technical error.
[more nonsense deleted]
>>Good for you. You'd only be displaying your ignorance of
>>course, but to each his own...
>
>Roger, I'm not sure here, but I think "ignorance" is really a
>function of "a lack of knowledge" and not "formulating an
>opinion"...but hey, if you need to take a cheap shot, then by all
>means go ahead...that's if it makes you feel better.
To knowledgeable observers of the game my meaning is obvious. Your
hockey education is not my responsibility.
>My word, such vehemence against poor ol' Bob Gainey. Why does
>he bother you so much...he was an effective player for his style
>of play.
He was just another player. To laud him as anything more I find
bothersome. I hated the Habs. I hated Lafleur until I realized
that he was likely the most aesthetically pleasing player to ever
skate in my lifetime. Why would anyone talk about Gainey?
>>go around. Who would you rather have as your "checking"
>>centre? Doug Gilmour or Doug Jarvis? For that matter I would
>>take either Gretzky or Mario as my "checking" centres. Do you
>>think Gretzky could cover Bob Gainey?
>I'm really sorry Roger, but you have lost me completely here.
>Why don't you ask me if I would rather have Jesus Christ,
>himself, in nets?
Did he play hockey at a high level? Was he any good? If not, why
would you bother to bring JC up? I am talking about hockey players
here. If you can't follow the conversation don't follow up. As I
said previously, it is not my responsibility to educate you.
>Now, if you were to compare, say for example, Bob Gainey with Guy
>Carbonneau, you would have a balanced comparison.
Sure. Two journeymen. Big deal. Neither one of them is worth
discussing.
>I'm wrong AGAIN...hmmm, let's see...where was I wrong in the
>>>I would take Fuhr and Sanderson off of the latter.
>first place? I'm only guessing here, Rog, but I have a feeling
>that you've setup a "You're wrong again" macro key on your
>machine.
That is an excellent idea and if I decide to waste any more time
responding to any of your, or Greg's, postings then I will be sure
to implement that very macro.
>I would suggest that your comment: "And when the press runs out
>of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype
>the pluggers. Grant Fuhr, Essa Tikkannen, Butch Goring, Bob
>Nystrom, Bob Gainey, Doug Jarvis, Derek Sanderson, Wayne Cashman,
>Bob Baun, Bob Pulford, Ralph Backstrom, Henri Richard, Dick
>Duff...and so on..." demonstrates a blanket disregard for these
>individuals as contributors to the game...so yes, settle
>down...nobody has claimed that they are hockey gods.
Tarasov claimed that Gainey was a "hockey god." And Greg ate it up.
And that is what this thread is all about. If you didn't know
that then why are you responding?
And as for "blanket disregard for these individuals", I can remember
Leaf teams, purely populated by such "individuals", winning four
Stanley Cups. Teams. No one ran around telling us that George
Armstrong was the best hockey player in the world.
>>>congenially, as always,
>>>
>>>jd
>>>
>>>--
>>>James David
>>>david@student.business.uwo.ca
>
>>You might consider developing your own style. After all,
>>imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and I am quite sure
>>that flattery is not your intention.
>
>C'mon...it has a nice ring to it...and admit it, you had a good
>laugh.
Right. I had to get to the end of your posting before I realized you were
a complete joke.
In the future, if you are going to respond to my postings I would appreciate
it if you could present a cogent argument supported by facts gleaned from a
version of reality that most of the rest of us would recognize.
cordially, as always,
rm
--
Roger Maynard
maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca
| 10rec.sport.hockey
|
In article <MARC.93Apr17211937@oliver.mit.edu> marc@mit.edu (Marc Horowitz N1NZU) writes:
>Just who is that, I asked myself, or rather, I asked the computer.
>
> % telnet csrc.ncsl.nist.gov 25
> Trying...
> Connected to csrc.ncsl.nist.gov.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> 220 first.org sendmail 4.1/NIST ready at Sat, 17 Apr 93 20:42:56 EDT
> expn clipper
> 250-<csspab@mail-gw.ncsl.nist.gov>
>[...]
> 221 first.org closing connection
> Connection closed.
>
>Well, isn't that interesting. Dorothy Denning, Mitch Kapor, [...]
Even more interesting: the SMTP server at csrc.ncsl.nist.gov no longer
recognizes the 'expn' and 'vrfy' commands...
telnet csrc.ncsl.nist.gov smtp
Trying 129.6.54.11...
Connected to csrc.ncsl.nist.gov.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 first.org sendmail 4.1/NIST ready at Tue, 20 Apr 93 17:01:34 EDT
expn clipper
500 Command unrecognized
Seems like sombody didn't like your snooping around, Marc.
--
Jurgen Botz, jbotz@mtholyoke.edu | Vending machines SHOULD respond to a [finger]
South Hadley, MA, USA | request with a list of all items currently
--Unix is dead, long live Unix-- | available for purchase... -RFC1288
| 11sci.crypt
|
manes@magpie.linknet.com (Steve Manes) writes:
>hambidge@bms.com wrote:
>: In article <C4psoG.C6@magpie.linknet.com>, manes@magpie.linknet.com (Steve Manes) writes:
>: >: Rate := per capita rate. The UK is more dangerous.
>: >: Though you may be less likely to be killed by a handgun, the average
>: >: individual citizen in the UK is twice as likely to be killed
>: >: by whatever means as the average Swiss. Would you feel any better
>: >: about being killed by means other than a handgun? I wouldn't.
>:
>: >What an absurd argument. Switzerland is one-fifth the size of the
>: >UK with one-eigth as many people therefore at any given point on
>: >Swiss soil you are more likely to be crow bait. More importantly,
>: >you are 4x as likely to be killed by the next stranger approaching
>: >you on a Swiss street than in the UK.
Killed by handgun, or killed? If I'm dead, I don't much care if it
was by being shot or stabbed to death.
>: You are betraying your lack of understanding about RATE versus TOTAL
>: NUMBER. Rates are expressed, often, as #/100,000 population.
>: Therefore, if a place had 10 deaths and a population of 100,000, the
>: rate would be 10/100,000. A place that had 50 deaths and a population
>: of 1,000,000 would hav a rate of 5/100,000. The former has a higher
>: rate, the latter a higher total. You are less likely to die in the
>: latter. Simple enuff?
>For chrissakes, take out your calculator and work out the numbers.
>Here... I've preformatted them for you to make it easier:
> handgun homicides/population
> ----------------------------
> Switzerland : 24 / 6,350,000
> UK : 8 / 55,670,000
>... and then tell me again how Switzerland is safer with a more
>liberal handgun law than the UK is without...by RATE or TOTAL NUMBER.
>Your choice.
>--
>Stephen Manes manes@magpie.linknet.com
>Manes and Associates New York, NY, USA =o&>o
I don't think you can get an accurate indicator of how safe England is
compared to Switzerland by concentrating only on handgun murders and
completely ignoring murders by other weapons, not to mention the rate of
other violent crimes. If there are more guns in circulation, if follows
that more people will be killed with them 'cause they are available to
the person intent on committing a crime _regardless_ of whether they
have to do it with a gun, knife, or bare hands.
The gun control lobby doesn't seem to understand this point. If people
are intent on committing a crime, they will do it with whatever means
are available to them.
aaron
arc@cco.caltech.edu
| 16talk.politics.guns
|
In article <May.6.00.34.58.1993.15426@geneva.rutgers.edu>, db7n+@andrew.cmu.edu (D. Andrew Byler) writes:
>> - Mike Walker
>>
>>[If you are using the standard formula of fully God and fully human,
>>that I'm not sure why you object to saying that Jesus was human. I
>>think the usual analysis would be that sin is not part of the basic
>>definition of humanity. It's a consequence of the fall. Jesus is
>>human, but not a fallen human. --clh]
>
I differ with our moderator on this. I thought the whole idea of God coming
down to earth to live as one of us "subject to sin and death" (as one of
the consecration prayers in the Book of Common Prayer (1979) puts it) was
that Jesus was tempted, but did not succumb. If sin is not part of the
basic definition of humanity, then Jesus "fully human" (Nicea) would not
be "subject to sin", but then the Resurrection loses some of its meaning,
because we encounter our humanity most powerfully when we sin. To distinguish
between "human" and "fallen human" makes Jesus less like one of us at the
time we need him most.
> [These issues get mighty subtle. When you see people saying different
> things it's often hard to tell whether they really mean seriously
> different things, or whether they are using different terminology. I
> don't think there's any question that there is a problem with
> Nestorius, and I would agree that the saying Christ had a human form
> without a real human nature or will is heretical. But I'd like to be
> a bit wary about the Copts, Armenians, etc. Recent discussions
> suggest that their monophysite position may not be as far from
> orthodoxy as many had thought. Nestorius was an extreme
> representative of one of the two major schools of thought. More
> moderate representatives were regarded as orthodox, e.g. Theodore of
> Mopsuestia. My impression is that the modern monophysite groups
> inherit the entire tradition, not just Nestorius' version, and that
> some of them may have a sufficient balanced position to be regarded as
> orthodox. --clh]
First, the Monophysites inherited none of Nestorius's version -- they
were on the opposite end of the spectrum from him. Second, the historical
record suggests that the positions attributed to Nestorius were not as
extreme as his (successful) opponents (who wrote the conventional history)
claimed. Mainly Nestorius opposed the term Theotokos for Mary, arguing
(I think correctly) that a human could not be called Mother of God. I mean,
in the Athanasian Creed we talk about the Son "uncreate" -- surely even
Arians would concede that Jesus existed long before Mary. Anyway, Nestorius's
opponents claimed that by saying Mary was not Theotokos, that he claimed
that she only gave birth to the human nature of Jesus, which would require
two seperate and distinct natures. The argument fails though, because
Mary simply gave birth to Jesus, who preexisted her either divinely,
if you accept "Nestorianism" as commonly defined, or both natures intertwined,
a la Chalcedon.
Second, I am not sure that "Nestorianism" is not a better alternative than
the orthodox view. After all, I find it hard to believe that pre-Incarnation
that Jesus's human nature was in heaven; likewise post-Ascension. I think
rather that God came to earth and took our nature upon him. It was a seperate
nature, capable of being tempted as in Gethsemane (since I believe the divine
nature could never be tempted) but in its moments of weakness the divine nature
prevailed.
Comments on the above warmly appreciated.
Jason Albert
[There may be differences in what we mean by "subject to sin". The
original complaint was from someone who didn't see how we could call
Jesus fully human, because he didn't sin. I completely agree that
Jesus was subject to temptation. I simply object to the idea that by
not succumbing, he is thereby not fully human. I believe that you do
not have to sin in order to be human.
I again apologize for confusing Nestorianism and monophysitism. I
agree with you, and have said elsewhere, that there's reason to think
that not everyone who is associated with heretical positions was in
fact heretical. There are scholars who maintain that Nestorius was
not Nestorian. I have to confess that the first time I read some of
the correspondence between Nestorius and his opponents, I thought he
got the better of them.
However, most scholars do believe that the work that eventually led to
Chalcedon was an advance, and that Nestorius was at the very least
"rash and dogmatic" (as the editor of "The Christological Controversy"
refers to him) in rejecting all approaches other than his own. As
regular Usenet readers know, narrowness can be just as much an
impediment as being wrong. Furthermore, he did say some things that I
think are problematical. He responds to a rather mild letter from
Cyril with a flame worthy of Usenet. In it he says "To attribute also
to [the Logos], in the name of [the incarnation] the characteristics
of the flesh that has been conjoined with him ... is, my brother,
either the work of a mind which truly errs in the fashion of the
Greeks or that of a mind diseased with the insane heresy of Arius and
Apollinaris and the others. Those who are thus carried away with the
idea of this association are bound, because of it, to make the divine
Logos have a part in being fed with milk and participate to some
degree in growh and stand in need of angelic assistance because of his
fearfulness ... These things are taken falsely when they are put off
on the deity and they become the occasion of just condemnation for us
who perpetrate the falsehood."
It's all well and good to maintain a proper distinction between
humanity and divinity. But the whole concept of incarnation is based
on exactly the idea that the divine Logos does in fact have "to some
degree" a part in being born, growing up, and dying. Of course it
must be understood that there's a certain indirectness in the Logos'
participation in these things. But there must be some sort of
identification between the divine and human, or we don't have an
incarnation at all. Nestorius seemed to think in black and white
terms, and missed the sorts of nuances one needs to deal with this
area.
You say "I find it hard to believe that pre-Incarnation that Jesus's
human nature was in heaven." I don't think that's required by
orthodox doctrine. It's the divine Logos that is eternal.
--clh]
| 15soc.religion.christian
|
:P>My atheism is incidental, and the question of "God" is trivial.
:P
:P>But........
:P
:P>It matters a great deal to me when idiots try to force their belief on me,
:P>when they try to enforce their creation myths to be taught as scientific
:P>fact in school, when they tell me I can have no morals because morals are
:P>from "God", when a successful presidential candidate says that an atheist
:P>shouldn't be considered a citizen and couldn't be patriotic because "after
:P>all this is one nation under God", when the fundies try to take over the
:P>party that may well provide the next President of The United States of
:P>America so that they can force their beliefs on the rest of the country,
:P>et cetera..........
:P
:P>That's why I subscribe to alt.atheism.
:P
:P>And in the middle of this, people who aren't mind readers pop up on
:P>alt.atheism to tell me what I do or don't believe, or to concoct some
:P>straw-man reason why I don't share their particular belief.
:P
:P>You think I should just accept this?
:P
:P>This isn't particularly a dig at fundamentalist christians. I have been
:P>told on alt.atheism that I reject Allah because I am too proud to embrace
:P>islam, and that I reject Krishna because my eyes are closed. But most of
:P>the religious nuts who post on alt.atheism are some kind of militant
:P>christian who can't accept that others don't share their beliefs. This
:P>kind of stuff should be kept on talk.religion.misc, where it belongs.
:P
:P>ATHEISM ISN'T A BELIEF, IT'S THE ABSENCE OF BELIEF IN ANY GODS.
:P> -------
:P
:P>Do you have a problem with this?
:P
:P>>
:P>>Bill
:PFirst, I would like to say that atheism is in fact a belief. It is a beilief
:Pbecause a belief in something you hold to with ador and faith. An atheist says there are no gods. This cannot be proven. therefore you are excepting this on
:Pfaith alone. That is a belief. Secondly, you complain so much about how the
:Pfundamental christians are trying to force their beliefs on you, but you don't
:Pmention anything about how the atheists, such as; Madamme Murry O'hare(founder
:Pof the Atheists Association in Austin Texas), and Robert Sherman(from the Chicago area) have been trying to force their beliefs on everyone by trying to get rid of God from our society by banning religious paintings from parks during Chistmas, forcing cities to change their town seals if there is any mention of God in it (like Sherman has done), or trying to get the slogan "In God We Trust" off of the American currency? You also talk about creation "myths" as if they are in fact myths and tha
:P
:P
:P
:Phave concrete evidece of this. You probably
:Pdon't and that just enforces my point that your atheism is just as much belief as my christianity. If this is not so please do show me why it isn't.
:PMark Covalt
The only real problem I have with the argument of christianity is that they seem to ignore their origin that being Asiatic in origin. As soon as christians become the
good non ego-centric Buddhists they are supposed to be, then I might listen.
My opinion, I speak not for my place of employment... But I should...
"Christ was over-rated, and will the ATF follow Koresh (the current Christ) through
his ascention to heaven?"
| 0alt.atheism
|
jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes:
:You are loosing.
"Loosing"? Well, I'll avoid the spelling flames and see if this person
can make up for it.
:There is no question about it.
Oh, there's LOTS of question about it. People are becoming more aware each
day that their rights are being threatened, so much so that NRA membership
is growing at the rate of nearly 2,000 per *day*. We are slowly gaining
our rightful voice, despite the biases, prejudices, and veiled motives of
the liberal media and anti-gun politicians. We will win.
:Of those who vote, your cause is considered an abomination. No matter
:how hard you try, public opinion is set against the RKBA.
What do you base this on? Some highly-skewed poll conducted by NBC News?
The same group who faked GM pickup explosions just to make "news"? Right.
:This is the end. By the finish of the Clinton administration, your
:RKBA will be null and void. Tough titty.
It is true that we face even greater obstacles to our rights, betrayed by
those lying politicians who swear an oath to protect the Constitution "from
all enemies, both foreign and domestic." But the People will take only so
many lies and deceits.
:You had better discover ways to make do without firearms. The number of
:cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause. There is nothing you
:can do about it. Those who live by the sword shall die by it.
Then the criminals who live by murder shall die by it. Honest, law-abiding
citizens need have no fear on that count. You, however, will evidently
die by (or at least in) ignorance. And the number of firearms self-defenses
shall spell out our ultimate victory.
:The press is against you, the public (the voting public) is against
:you, the flow of history is against you ... this is it !
The flow of history was against the Founding Fathers, but they managed to
successfully form the first real free republic on the face of this planet,
a republic that has become the model for all others to follow. The press
is against us, for its own selfish motivations. And the people will soon
realize the depths of deceit being spread by that media, and nullify its
ill-directed power. The People are with us.
:Surrender your arms. Soon enough, officers will be around to collect
:them. Resistance is useless. They will overwhelm you - one at a time.
:Your neighbors will not help you. They will consider you more if an
:immediate threat than the abstract 'criminal'.
I shall never submit to an illegal, unConstitutional police state. I will
take my own vow to uphold the Constitution, and I shall defend it and my
country against a tyrannical government gone mad, should it become
necessary.
:Too fucking bad. You have gone the way of the KKK. Violent solutions
:are passe'. Avoid situations which encourage criminals. Then you will
:be as safe as possible. Such as it is ...
I will not be your sacrificial sheep, and I shall not bow down to you or
anyone else who seeks to control my life. Being an unarmed target is the
SUREST way of encouraging criminals, and believe me, I shall avoid it as
much as possible. Then I shall be as safe as possible. I will answer
with violence only when no other option exists, but I shall surely answer.
Mike Ruff
--
- This above all, to thine own S T R I D E R mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
- self be true. --Polonius * * ***** ** * * **** ***** *** * *
Those who would sacrifice essential * * * * * * * * * * ** *
liberties for a little temporary * * * **** * * **** * * * * *
safety deserve neither liberty * * * * * * * * * * * **
nor safety. --B. Franklin **** * * * **** **** * *** * *
| 16talk.politics.guns
|
In article <1r6omsINNnbk@ctron-news.ctron.com> smith@ctron.com writes:
>In article <gfpftjW00iV3Q3vWYv@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Daniel U. Holbrook" <dh3q+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>>These are the extensions I know of
>>>ch Switzerland
>>>se Sweden
>>>fi Finland
>>>uk UK
>>>Com US?
>>>Edu US? (are both com and edu US?)
>>>fr France
>>dk denmark
>>no Norway
>
>.com and .edu are both United States, one refers to commercial institutions,
>the other to mental - I mean, "educational" - institutions. .gov is also
>pretty much US, it refers to government institutions. Internet was built on
>the AARP backbone, a US Defense contractor network that used the extension
I think you mean ARPA; AARP is the American Association of Retired Persons,
and I seriously doubt that they'd want young whippersnappers building
anything on their backbones, what with de-calcification and all :-)
>to identify the type of organisation. Internet extended the convention for
>other countries, but the US retained the old conventions.
The general convention is that if it doesn't have a country tag on it, it's
a US site. That includes:
.com commercial
.edu educational
.mil US Military sites
.gov US Gov't non-military sites (eg NASA sites)
.org anyone who is "none of the above"
There are sites with such tags that are non-US sites, but they will have
the country extension (eg xxxx.edu.au is an extension I saw today).
US sites can also use the .us extension, but, as Mr. Smith pointed
out, the Internet was built on the ARPANet backbone, and they default
to US sites if there's no country code.
I would suggest that anyone who didn't know this (or wants to know
more about it on a non-system-administrative level) check out
the book _The_Whole_Internet_User's_Guide_and_Catalog_ by Ed Krol.
(or is it Catalog and User's Guide? I can never remember, and my copy
is my desk at home...). It's a very good not-necessarily-technical
guide to the Internet and the various utilities that lurk on it (including
USENET). I don't think it's part of the Nutshell series, but it is
published by O'Reilly and Associates.
This should go to one of the news.* newsgroups, but damned if I
can figure out which one.... :-)
James
James P. Callison Microcomputer Coordinator, U of Oklahoma Law Center
Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu /\ Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
The forecast calls for Thunder...'89 T-Bird SC
"It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. You take away all he has
and all he's ever gonna have."
--Will Munny, "Unforgiven"
| 7rec.autos
|
srihari@cirrus.com (Srihari Shoroff) writes:
>In <Ifn=sPO00iV18_A8NZ@andrew.cmu.edu> jr4q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jason M. Roth) writes:
>>>R&T had an article on cars of the SC1 ilk and they liked the Civic Ex,
>>>the Escort GT and the MX-3 best of all, and the SC1 was way down the
>>>list except for braking.
>>I just looked at that article; first of all, this summary is inaccurate;
>>of 10 cars, the SC1 was 5th, right behind these mentioned and the Suzuki
>>Swift (!). As has been pointed out, it was a semi-silly comparison; the
>>Saturn was at least $500 cheaper than the MX-3 and Escort (admittedly
>>negligible, but an issue), and $1500 (!)less than the Honda. The stated
>>goal was a base under $12k; the Honda was $500 over, while the SC2 at
>>the same price was excluded. In other words, they let the best Honda
>>play, but not the best Saturn. Note that the Saturn did beat the $13k
>I dont know about the car comparison but as far as the price goes rest
>assured that the street prices for the MX-3 and Escort and (maybe) even
>the Honda will be lesser than that of the Saturn you're talking about.
>All price comparisons I've seen are based on MSRP and of course the
>saturn dealer will sell the car for sticker price whereas the others
>will do it way below sticker.
>Srihari
I'd hate to rehash an old thread, but... Would someone kindly quote
a prices that a dealer quotes for a Civic EX, and Escort GT. Also, I'm a
assuming that the MX-3 was the V-6, so go ahead and look that up, too. If
someone has one of those yearly buyers' guides that give a low quote price,
please quote them, too. Then find the the SC1 base price.
Thanks.
--
Chintan Amin <The University of Illinois UrbanaChampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu
******************************Neil Peart, (c)1981*****************************
*"Quick to judge, Quick to Anger, Slow to understand, Ignorance and Prejudice*
*And********Fear********Walk********************Hand*********in*********Hand"*
| 7rec.autos
|
I'm concerned about a recent posting about WBT/SIL. I thought they'd
pretty much been denounced as a right-wing organization involved in
ideological manipulation and cultural interference, including Vietnam
and South America. A commission from Mexican Academia denounced them in
1979 as " a covert political and ideological institution used by the
U.S. govt as an instrument of control, regulation, penetration, espionage and
repression."
My concern is that this group may be seen as acceptable and even
praiseworthy by readers of soc.religion.christian. It's important that
Christians don't immediately accept every "Christian" organization as
automatically above reproach.
mp
| 15soc.religion.christian
|
In article <930419182442.669507@DOCKMASTER.NCSC.MIL>, Grant@DOCKMASTER.NCSC.MIL (Lynn R Grant) writes:
|> If we do not trust the NSA to be a registrar of Clipper Chip key halves,
|> I would not trust Mitre either.
I wouldn't trust Mitre for another reason:
remember "The Cuckoo's Egg"? How great was
their security, eh?
NSA - well, with the list of known "turncoats",
does it make you wonder how many more unknown
still are there?
(:-) (:-(
--
Regards,
Uri. uri@watson.ibm.com scifi!angmar!uri
------------
<Disclaimer>
| 11sci.crypt
|
>because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer. Modern,
>ground-based, visible light astronomy (what these proposed
>orbiting billboards would upset) is already a dying field: The
Ahh, perhaps that's why we've (astronomers) have just built *2* 10-meter
ground-based scopes and are studying designs for larger ones.
Seriously, though, you're never going to get a 10-meter scope into orbit
as cheaply as you can build one on the ground, and with adaptive optics
and a good site, the difference in quality is narrowed quite a bit
anyway. Also, scopes in low orbit (like Hubble) can only observe things
continuously for ~45 minutes at a time, which can be a serious
limitation.
>opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have
>driven most of the field to use radio, far infrared or space-based
>telescopes. In any case, a bright point of light passing through
>the field doesn't ruin observations. If that were the case, the
I sure as hell does if the 'point of light' is half a degree in extent
and as bright as the moon. Have you ever noticed how much brighter the
night sky is on a moonlit night?
>thousands of existing satellites would have already done so (satelliets
>might not seem so bright to the eyes, but as far as astronomy is concerned,
>they are extremely bright.)
Existing satellites *are* points of light, but an advertising sign that
appeared as a point would be useless, so I rather think these will
appear larger than a 'typical' satellite. Also, satellite tracks *are*
ruining lots of plates in the current Palomar Sky Survey.
>
> Frank Crary
> CU Boulder
What deparment are you in anyway, Philosophy? You obviously are not
qualified to speak about astronomy...
--Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
R. Lee Hawkins lhawkins@annie.wellesley.edu
Department of Astronomy lhawkins@lucy.wellesley.edu
Whitin Observatory
Wellesley College Ph. 617-283-2708
Wellesley, MA 02181 FAX 617-283-3642
________________________________________________________________________________
| 14sci.space
|
In article <Apr.29.01.29.24.1993.8394@geneva.rutgers.edu> johnsd2@rpi.edu writes:
>In article 4220@geneva.rutgers.edu, seanna@bnr.ca (Seanna (S.M.) Watson) writes:
>[deletia- Recovery programs, etc]
>
>I do need you to show me that there is such a thing as
>a "spiritual need"; to do that it may be necessary to show
>me that *spirits* (souls, whatnot) exist; God is not
>important to that as far as I can tell.
>
I get the feeling that we are debating at cross-purposes--that we
do not see the same fundamental assumptions, and this perhaps makes
my answers orthogonal to your questions. I will try again.
Perhaps you believe that nothing exists aside from objectively
observable and provable things. In that case, I cannot show you
that there is such thing as a spirit or a spiritual need--these
things do not exist in the realm of the objective, but in the
realm of the subjective.
>OTOH, if you wish you can simply (but explicitly, please)
>*assume* spirits exist, and then show me that they would
>have needs, and that a.a. handles these needs in some way.
>You can assume God exists too if that will help. I'll play along.
>
(By a.a., I assume you mean Alcoholics Anonymous, and not alt.atheism ;)
I would not say that AA "handles" spiritual needs. Rather I would say
that AA (and other 12-step programs) help people come to terms with their
needs--ie that AA is facilitating the recovery, and that as part of the
recovery, they recognize their spiritual needs, and begin to rely on a "higher
power" (12-step's term) to fill them instead of whatever substance abuse
they had been accustomed to. (Sorry, there is no objective proof here
either--no way to take 2 identical alcoholics and try to have one recover
by fulfilling spiritual needs, and one without and externally compare the
difference--we are talking about the virtually infinite complexity of
*people* here.)
>But I should say, if God is a necessary component
>of your "spiritual needs" then I truely do not understand at
>all. It sounds to me like *spirits* have needs that should be
>fulfilled by God, but can be "masked" in other ways (drugs etc).
>If this is the case, then you can leave out God: just describe
>the problem, not the solution.
>
Spiritual needs could be defined as things that people need in addition to
physical requirements like air, food, sleep, etc. These are things like
the need for love and acceptance, and the need for meaning in life. If
one denies the existence of spiritual things, one would presumably call
these "emotional needs". The reason Christians call them spiritual needs
is that they have aspects that are not fulfillable except by spiritual
means--ie a person could be loved and accepted by many people, and do
many meaningful things, but still have a need for love, which can only be
satisfied by the love of God. Now the problem is that there are people who
accept the existence of these needs, and people who reject them. Since I
believe in absolute truth, some of these people are right, and the others
are wrong. So here are the 2 possibilities:
1) If Christians are right, then we all have spiritual needs--ie
we all need God. Those who do not realize that they need God are
deluded--they just haven't recognized it yet.
2) If Christians are wrong, spiritual needs are an artefact of our brain
chemicals. Well-adjusted and properly-integrated personalities do not
have such things. Christians are simply using the concept of God and
spiritual needs to mask their own inadequacies.
I hate to belabour the point, but the existence of spirits and spiritual
needs cannot be objectively demonstrated or proven, just like the existence
of God cannot. And yes, this means that there is a risk that all my subjective
evidence is manufactured by my brain chemicals. But on the other hand, I
could venture into solipsism and say that there is a risk that everything that
I appear to objectively know is really manufactured by my brain chemicals.
I suspect this is an unsatisfactory answer to a request for evidence and
demonstration of the existence of spirits and spiritual needs, but my assertion
is that such things are not objectively demonstrable. As I have said before,
I myself am on the Christian side of agnosticism, having been pushed off the
fence by subjective evidence. (And no, I was not raised a Christian, so it
is not a case of simply accepting what I was indoctrinated with.)
==
Seanna Watson Bell-Northern Research, | Pray that at the end of living,
(seanna@bnr.ca) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Of philosophies and creeds,
| God will find his people busy
Opinion, what opinions? Oh *these* opinions. | Planting trees and sowing seeds.
No, they're not BNR's, they're mine. |
I knew I'd left them somewhere. | --Fred Kaan
| 15soc.religion.christian
|
In article <1qvnu9$a8a@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> hawk@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu writes:
>Greetings! Could anybody here give me any information about New Age religion?
>About the history, the teachings, ...??? Or may be suggestions what books I
>should read in order to get those info? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Contact: WATCHMAN FELLOWSHIP
P.O. Box 171194
Holladay, UT 84117-1194
Ask for their book: The New Age and Space Age Heresies
The New Age In Our Schools
| 19talk.religion.misc
|
In <kmr4.1466.734160929@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
> "Wait. You just said that humans are rarely reasonable. Doesn't that
> contradict atheism, where everything is explained through logic and
> reason? This is THE contradiction in atheism that proves it false."
> --- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #2
Does anybody have Bobby's post in which he said something like "I don't
know why there are more men than women in islamic countries. Maybe it's
atheists killing the female children"? It's my personal favorite!
--
Sami Aario | "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi | one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------' "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space" DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.
| 0alt.atheism
|
SUBSCRIBE XPERT skji@eve.kaist.ac.kr
| 5comp.windows.x
|
In article <C6Assy.Ao9@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>, loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss) writes:
> Analog SF magazine did an article on a similar subject quite a few
> years ago. The question was, if an alien spacecraft landed in
> Washington, D.C., what was the proper organization to deal with it: The
> State Department (alien ambassadors), the Defense Department (alien
> invaders), the Immigration and Naturalization Service (illegal aliens),
> the Department of the Interior (new non-human species), etc. It was
> very much a question of our perception of the aliens, not of anything
> intrinsic in their nature. The bibliography for the article cited a
> philosophical paper (the name and author of which I sadly forget; I
> believe the author was Italian) on what constitutes a legal and/or moral
> person, i.e., a being entitled to the rights normally accorded to a
> person. The paper was quite interesting, as I recall.
This is a whole different situation. If aliens were able to get here prior
to us being able to get there, one might conclude that they would be more advanced
and therefore "more intelegent" that we are. However if we get somewhere where there
is life, chances are we wont be able to communicate with them. So we will have
no clue as to weather they are "intelegent" or not.
> I think you'd have to be very careful here if the answer is yes. The
> human track record on helping those poor underpriveleged cultures (does
> underpriveleged mean not having enough priveleges?) is terrible. The
> usual result is the destruction or radical reorganization of the
> culture. This may not always be wrong, but that's the way to bet.
That's a good point, I hadn't thought of it that way. My question however was
more along the lines of... Every year the US spends millions of tax dollars
and giving tax breaks to individuals and companies who feed the poor of foreign
countries while thousands of our own people sleep on the streets at night.
Would we give to the economicly dissadvantaged on another planet if we hadn't resolved
these issues on our own?
But... Your comment brings up another good question. Over the years we have decided
that certain cultures need improvements. The native americans is a good example. Prior
to our attempt to civilize them, the native american culture had very little crime, no
homelessnes, no poverty. Then the europeans came along and now they have those and
more. If we encounter life elsewhere, do we tell them they have to live in houses, farm
the land and go to church on sunday?
--
Have a day,
@ @
( ) bobo
| 14sci.space
|
ESTOP07@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU (*ACS) writes:
>Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this
> I was crusing the net earlier this year and came upon something called
>Color pict of spinning earth. I am assuming it is a animation sequence of the
>earth's rotation (or revolution I always get those mixed up). At the time I
>found it my sysem would not even support color graphics so I didn't bother to
>get the pict. Now I have a fairly nice system and cant find the pict again!
>If anyone can help please post here or E-mail me
>Thanks in advance
>Eric (Estop07@conrad.appstate.edu)
Likewise for me please. First time I've hear of it, but I've beem looking
for something like this for the past few months.
Patrick Hew
2nd Year Science/ Engineering
University of Western Australia
phew@tartarus.uwa.edu.au
phew@mackerel.gu.uwa.edu.au
| 1comp.graphics
|
In article <1qkn1t$59l@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>
>However, not only are the outputs of science subjectively valued, so are
>the inputs. More problems. Which facts to observe? What
>is a fact? When am I justified in valuing sensory input as signal rather
>than noise? How do I know that everyone makes the call the same as I
>do? As a loyal relativist, I must assume that what's signal for me
>may not be signal for you. The objectivity postulate should not sit
>well with me.
>
>So the relativist attends to a system, designed at whim, fed with what should
>be assumed to be conflicting data, in the expectation of results which need
>satisfy no-one. GIGO.
>
>--
>Frank O'Dwyer 'I'm not hatching That'
>odwyer@sse.ie from "Hens", by Evelyn Conlon
As a loyal relativist, even you can partake in the wonders of
scientific discovery (to borrow a phrase from D. Letterman: "Are you
like me? Do you like science and medicine?").
Difference is that science is based on consensus. The points above are
well made, and obviously there is some discussion as to what the
facts are in some cases. But if you are willing to play along with
the definitions, you too can hit the jackpot. Science also tends to
use the principle of totality (vs locality). You can always look at a
small part of the macrocosm, yet those miniature pieces are still a
part of the total essence. So the facts to observe are those which
pertain to what questions you're asking. You may place a value on the
questions, but in many case, they are being asked just for the sake
of asking. And you can say that you're looking at a signal instead of
listening to noise, but the beauty of science is that it takes both
into account (the totality aspect). For science to say that light is
a wave and NOT a particle (or vice versa) would be to ignore the total
essence that is light (which is based upon the agreed upon definitions).
Why even have definitions? Why agree upon them? Well, to communicate in
such a way so that many will understand what you are saying. Where the
curiosity and drive come from I don't honestly know.
I hope I haven't rambled too much. (Not much sleep lately.)
Clyde
--
Little girls, like butterflies, don't need a reason!
- Robert Heinlein
| 19talk.religion.misc
|
In article <gjg2001-220493224950@m248-103.bgsu.edu> gjg2001@andy.bgsu.edu (Greg Gantzer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr22.192652.3032@Virginia.EDU>, jmm4h@Virginia.EDU ("The
>Blade Runner") wrote:
>>
>> I just have got to remind all of you that this is it! Yes,
>> that's right, somtime this fall, Ford (the granddaddy of cars)
>> will be introducing an all-new, mega-cool
>> way-too-fast-for-Accord-drivers Mustang. It's supposed to be
>> 100% streamlined, looking similar to the Mach III concept car
>> Ford came out with around January. I can't wait. Anyone out
>> there hear anything about it recently?
>
>Yeah, it looks like shit!!! Nothing like the mach III. Check out the
>latest issue of popular mechanics, they have a picture of one. It looks
>like a cross between a dodge daytona and an eagle talon, only much uglier.
>This car looks like it should have been produced in 1990, not 1994.
I'll pick up that PM and have a look -- maybe the picture in there is not
the actual car, but a prototype?
I saw the Mach III and was not all that impressed -- it looked WAY too
Japanese for me... the tear drop headlights reminded me of a Nissan NX...
Glad I didn't hold out for the '94 and bought a '93. Maybe they'll work on
the design a little bit, listen to consumers and come out with nice-looking
'95 or '96. It always takes a while to work out the kinks in a new design,
e.g. the F-body Camaro/Firebirds (btw, the new Camaros look like shit too).
--
Keath Milligan, Software Engineer, VideoTelecom Corporation, Austin, Texas
jkm@vtel.com, reaper@wixer.bga.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try Real/Time Communications! (512-459-4391 or telnet wixer.bga.com)
| 7rec.autos
|
In article <1993Apr5.040414.14939@colorado.edu>,
ajteel@dendrite.cs.Colorado.EDU (A.J. Teel) writes...
> Again, the main point.
> No human being not yet born can be bound to any contract.
Wrong. It's possible to inherit a debt.
> Further, no third party can be bound to any contract that
>they are not a party to.
See above.
> The Constitution *for* the United States is just such a contract.
>No third party can be bound to it. Further, no human who is not specifically
>mentioned in Article 6 and has not taken an oath or made an affirmation
>to uphold said Const can be bound to uphold or obey it.
The Constitution is not a contract. It is a statute. Please,
Mr. Teel, or anyone, show me one case where the U.S.
Constitution, or any state constitution, is considered a
contract.
> The Const is designed to limit the powers of government, not to
>bind THE PEOPLE.
It is also designed to delineate the powers of the U.S.
government.
> This argument will be presented in great detail in the next post.
I can't wait.
Daniel Reitman
HOW NOT TO WRITE A DEED
One case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees "jointly, as
tenants in common, with equal rights and interest in said land, and to the
survivor thereof, in fee simple. . . . To Have and to Hold the same unto the
said parties hereto, equally, jointly, as tenants in common, with equal rights
and interest for the period or term of their lives, and to the survivor thereof
at the death of the other."
The court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a
joint tenancy. Germain v. Delaine, 294 Ala. 443, 318 So.2d 681 (1975).
| 18talk.politics.misc
|
pastor@vfl.paramax.com (Jon Pastor) writes:
>Which they do in the vast majority of cases. Remember that it's only the
>people on the tails of the curve who are motivated to write -- the ones who
>love it, and the ones who hate it. You don't hear from the folks in the
>middle very often...
>They have rough edges, no doubt about it; but they give good value per dollar,
>and use almost all top-quality components.
I am one of those middle-of-the-road GW2000 owners who is satisfied with
my system. I had my share of problems/corrections/phone conversations/etc. I'm
satisfied on what I got for my money.
Stephen R. Husak
--
"What am I trying to do, what am I trying to say, I'm not trying to tell you
anything you didn't know when you woke up today..."
- Depeche Mode "Nothing" MUSIC FOR THE MASSES
-= Stephen R. Husak - husak@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu - Univerisity of Illinois
| 3comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
|
Archive-name: graphics/resources-list/part1
Last-modified: 1993/04/17
Computer Graphics Resource Listing : WEEKLY POSTING [ PART 1/3 ]
===================================================
Last Change : 17 April 1993
Many FAQs, including this Listing, are available on the archive site
pit-manager.mit.edu (alias rtfm.mit.edu) [18.172.1.27] in the directory
pub/usenet/news.answers. The name under which a FAQ is archived appears
in the Archive-name line at the top of the article.
This FAQ is archived as graphics/resources-list/part[1-3]
There's a mail server on that machine. You send a e-mail message to
mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu containing the keyword "help" (without
quotes!) in the message body.
You can see in many other places for this Listing. See the item:
0. Places to find the Resource Listing
for more information.
Items Changed:
--------------
RE-ARRANGED the subjects, in order to fir better in the 63K/article limit.
I PLAN ON CHANGING HEADERS SOON, SO BE CAREFUL! ONLY THE "Resource Listing"
keys are sure to remain in the Subject: line!
0. Places to find the Resource Listing
6. 3D graphics editors
a. Public domain, free and shareware systems
9. Plotting packages
18. Molecular visualization stuff
[ I'm thinking of making this post bi-weekly. What do you think??? ]
--------------
Lines which got changed, have the `#' character in front of them.
Added lines are prepended with a `+'
Removed lines are just removed. Use 'diff' to locate these changes.
========================================================================
This text is (C)Copyright 1992, 1993 of Nikolaos C. Fotis. You can copy
freely this file, provided you keep this copyright notice intact.
Compiled by Nikolaos (Nick) C. Fotis, e-mail: nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr
Please contact me for updates,corrections, etc.
Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy of this document.
Use it at your own risk.
========================================================================
This is mainly a guide for computer graphics software.
I would suggest reading the Comp. Graphics FAQ for image analysis stuff.
It's entitled:
(date) comp.graphics Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
John T. Grieggs <grieggs@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> is the poster of the
official comp.graphics FAQ
I have included my comments within braces '[' and ']'.
Nikolaos Fotis
========================================================================
Contents of the Resource Listing
================================
PART1:
------
0. Places to find the Resource Listing
1. ARCHIE
2. Notes
3. Computer graphics FTP site list, by Eric Haines
4. Mail servers and graphics-oriented BBSes
5. Ray-tracing/graphics-related mailing lists.
6. 3D graphics editors
a. Public domain, free and shareware systems
b. Commercial systems
7. Scene description languages
8. Solids description formats
PART2:
------
9. Plotting packages
10. Image analysis software - Image processing and display
PART3:
------
11. Scene generators/geographical data/Maps/Data files
12. 3D scanners - Digitized 3D Data.
13. Background imagery/textures/datafiles
14. Introduction to rendering algorithms
a. Ray tracing
b. Z-buffer (depth-buffer)
c. Others
15. Where can I find the geometric data for the:
a. Teapot ?
b. Space Shuttle ?
16. Image annotation software
17. Scientific visualization stuff
18. Molecular visualization stuff
19. GIS (Geographical Information Systems software)
Future additions:
[Please send me updates/info!]
========================================================================
0. Places to find the Resource Listing
======================================
#This file is crossposted to comp.graphics, comp.answers and news.answers,
so if you can't locate it in comp.graphics, you're advised to search in
#comp.answers or news.answers
(The latter groups usually are archived in your site. Contact your sysadmin
for more info).
These 3 articles are posted to comp.graphics 3-4 times a month and are kept in
many places (see below)
--
Many FAQs, including this one, are available on the archive site
pit-manager.mit.edu (alias rtfm.mit.edu) [18.172.1.27] in the directory
pub/usenet/news.answers. The name under which a FAQ is archived appears
in the Archive-name line at the top of the article.
This FAQ is archived as graphics/resources-list/part[1-3]
There's a mail server on that machine. You send a e-mail message to
mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu containing: help in the Subject: field
--
The inria-graphlib mail server mirrors this posting (see under the
Subject 4: Mail servers )
--
The Resource Listing is accesible through WAIS in the machine
enuxva.eas.asu.edu (port 8000) under the name graphics-resources-list.
It's got a digest-type line before every numbered item for purposes of
indexing.
--
Another place that monitors the Listing is the MaasInfo files.
For more info contact Robert E. Maas <rem@btr.com>
--
Yet another place to search for FAQs in general is the SWITCH
(Swiss Academic and Research Network) system in Switzerland:
interactive:
telnet nic.switch.ch [130.59.1.40], login as "info". Move to the
info_service/Usenet/periodic-postings directory. Search in the
00index file by typing "/" and the word to look for.
You may then just read the FAQ in the "faqs" directory, or decide
to fetch it by one of the following methods.
ftp:
login to nic.switch.ch [130.59.1.40] as user anonymous and
enter your internet-style address after being prompted for a
password.
cd info_service/Usenet/periodic-postings
mail:
send e-mail to
RFC-822:
archive-server@nic.switch.ch
X.400:
/S=archive-server/OU=nic/O=switch/PRMD=switch/ADMD=arcom/C=ch/
Enter 'help' in the bodypart to receive instructions. No information
is required in the subject header line.
1. ARCHIE
=========
The Archie is a service system to locate FTP places for
requested files. It's appreciated that you will use Archie
before asking help in the newsgroups.
Archie servers:
archie.au or 139.130.4.6 (Aussie/NZ)
archie.funet.fi or 128.214.6.100 (Finland/Eur.)
archie.th-darmstadt.de or 130.83.128.111 (GER.)
cs.huji.ac.il or 132.65.6.5 (Israel)
archie.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp or 130.54.20.1 (JAPAN)
archie.sogang.ac.kr or 163.239.1.11 (Korea)
archie.ncu.edu.tw or telnet 140.115.19.24 (TWN)
archie.doc.ic.ac.uk or 146.169.3.7 (UK/Ireland)
archie.sura.net or 128.167.254.179 (USA [MD])
archie.unl.edu (password: archie1) (USA [NE])
archie.ans.net or 147.225.1.2 (USA [NY])
archie.rutgers.edu or 128.6.18.15 (USA [NJ])
archie.nz or 130.195.9.4 (New Zealand)
Connect to Archie server with telnet and type "archie" as username.
To get help type 'help'.
You can get 'xarchie' or 'archie', which are clients that call Archie
without the burden of a telnet session.
'Xarchie' is on the X11.R5 contrib tape, and 'archie' on comp.sources.misc,
vol. 27.
To get information on how to use Archie via e-mail, send mail with
subject "help" to "archie" account at any of above sites.
(Note to Janet/PSS users -- the United Kingdom archie site is
accessible on the Janet host doc.ic.ac.uk [000005102000].
Connect to it and specify "archie" as the host name and "archie" as
the username.)
==========================================================================
2. Notes
========
(Excerpted from the FAQ article)
Please do *not* post or mail messages saying "I can't FTP, could
someone mail this to me?" There are a number of automated mail servers
that will send you things like this in response to a message.
There are a number of sites that archive the Usenet sources newsgroups
and make them available via an email query system. You send a message
to an automated server saying something like "send comp.sources.unix/fbm",
and a few hours or days later you get the file in the mail.
==========================================================================
3. Computer graphics FTP site list, by Eric Haines
==================================================
Computer graphics related FTP sites (and maintainers), 26/03/93
compiled by Eric Haines, erich@eye.com
and Nick Fotis, nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr
Ray-tracers:
------------
RayShade - a great ray tracer for workstations on up, also for PC, Mac & Amiga.
PoV - son and successor to DKB trace, written by Compuservers.
(For more questions call Drew Wells --
73767.1244@compuserve.com or Dave Buck -- david_buck@carleton.ca)
ART - ray tracer with a good range of surface types, part of VORT package.
DKBtrace - another good ray tracer, from all reports; PCs, Mac II,
Amiga, UNIX, VMS (last two with X11 previewer), etc.
RTrace - Portugese ray tracer, does bicubic patches, CSG, 3D text, etc. etc.
An MS-DOS version for use with DJGPP DOS extender (GO32) exists also,
as a Mac port.
VIVID2 - A shareware raytracer for PCs - binary only (286/287). Author:
Stephen Coy (coy@ssc-vax.boeing.com). The 386/387 (no source) version
is available to registered users (US$50) direct from the author.
RAY4 - Steve Hollasch's 4-dimensional ray tracer - renders hyperspheres,
hypertetrahedra, hyperplanes, and hyperparallelepipeds (there's
a separate real-time wireframe viewer written in GL called WIRE4 ) .
MTV,QRT,DBW - yet more ray tracers, some with interesting features.
Distributed/Parallel Raytracers:
--------------------------------
XDART - A distributed ray-tracer that runs under X11. There are server binaries
which work only on DECstations, SPARCs, HP Snakes (7x0 series) and NeXT.
The clients are distributed as binaries and C source.
Inetray - A network version of Rayshade 4.0. Needs Sun RPC 4.0 or newer.
Contact Andreas Thurnherr (ant@ips.id.ethz.ch)
prt, VM_pRAY - parallel ray tracers.
Volume renderers:
-----------------
VREND - Cornell's Volume Renderer, from Kartch/Devine/Caffey/Warren (FORTRAN).
Radiosity (and diffuse lighting) renderers:
-------------------------------------------
Radiance - a ray tracer w/radiosity effects, by Greg Ward. Excellent shading
models and physically based lighting simulation. Unix/X based, though
has been ported to the Amiga and the PC (386).
INDIA - An Indian radiosity package based on Radiance.
SGI_RAD - An interactive radiosity package that runs on SGI machines with a
Spaceball. It includes a house database.
Author: Guy Moreillon <moreillo@ligsg1.epfl.ch>
RAD - a simple public-domain radiosity package in C. The solution can be run
stand-alone on any Unix box, but the walk-through requires a SGI 4D.
Author: Bernard Kwok <g-kwok@cs.yorku.ca>
Renderers which are not raytracers, and graphics libraries:
-----------------------------------------------------------
SIPP - Scan line z-buffer and Phong shading renderer.
Now uses the shadow buffer algorithm.
Tcl-SIPP - a Tcl command interface to the SIPP rendering
program. Tcl-SIPP is a set of Tcl commands used to programmed
SIPP without having to write and compile C code.
Commands are used to specify surfaces, objects,
scenes and rendering options.
It renders either in PPM format or in Utah Raster Toolkit RLE format
or to the photo widget in the Tk-based X11 applications.
VOGLE - graphics learning environment (device portable).
VOGL - an SGI GL-like library based on VOGLE.
REND386 - A *fast* polygon renderer for Intel 386s and up. Version 2 on up.
[ It's not photorealistic, but rather a real-time renderer]
XSHARP21 - Dr. Dobb's Journal PC renderer source code, with budget texture
mapping.
Modellers, wireframe viewers:
-----------------------------
VISION-3D - Mac modeler, can output Radiance & Rayshade files.
IRIT - A CSG solid modeler, with support for freeform surfaces.
X3D - A wireframe viewer for X11.
3DV - 3-D wireframe graphics toolkit, with C source, 3dv objects, other stuff
Look at major PC archives like wuarchive. One such file is 3DKIT1.ZIP
PV3D - a shareware front end modeler for POVRAY, still in beta test.
French docs for now, price for registering 250 French Francs. Save disabled.
Some extra utilities, DXF files for the registered version.
Geometric viewers:
------------------
SALEM - A GL-based package from Dobkin et al. for exploring mathematical
structures.
GEOMVIEW - A GL-based package for looking and interactively manipulating
3D objects, from Geometry Center at Minnesota.
XYZ GeoBench -(eXperimental geometrY Zurich) is a workbench for geometric
computation for Macintosh computers.
WIRE4 - GL wireframe previewer for Steve Hollasch's RAY4 (see above)
Data Formats and Data Sets for Ray Tracing:
-------------------------------------------
SPD - a set of procedural databases for testing ray tracers.
NFF - simplistic file format used by SPD.
OFF - another file format.
P3D - a lispy file format.
TDDD - Imagine (3D modeler) format, has converters for RayShade, NFF, OFF, etc.
Also includes a nice postscript object displayer. Some GREAT models.
TTDDDLIB - converts to/from TDDD/TTDDD, OFF, NFF, Rayshade 4.0, Imagine,
and vort 3d objects. Also outputs Framemaker MIF files and isometric
views in Postscript. Registered users get a TeX PK font converter and
a superquadric surfaces generator.
Glenn Lewis <glewis@pcocd2.intel.com>
[Note : TTDDDLIB is also known as T3DLIB]
CHVRTD - Chapel Hill Volume Rendering Test Datasets, includes volume sets for
two heads, a brain, a knee, electron density maps for RNA and others.
Written Material on Rendering:
------------------------------
RT News - collections of articles on ray tracing.
RT bib - references to articles on ray tracing in "refer" format.
Rad bib - references to articles on radiosity (global illumination).
Speer RT bib - Rick Speer's cross-referenced RT bib, in postscript.
RT abstracts - collection by Tom Wilson of abstracts of many RT articles.
Paper bank project - various technical papers in electronic form. Contact
Juhana Kouhia <jk87377@cs.tut.fi>
Online Bibliography Project :
The ACM SIGGRAPH Online Bibliography Project is a database of
over 15,000 unique computer graphics and computational geometry
references in BibTeX format, available to the computer graphics
community as a research and educational resource.
The database is located at "siggraph.org". Users may download
the BibTeX files via FTP and peruse them offline, or telnet to
"siggraph.org" and log in as "biblio" and interactively search
the database for entries of interest, by keyword.
For the people without Internet access, there's also an e-mail
server. Send mail to
archive-server@siggraph.org
and in the subject or the body of the message include the message send
followed by the topic and subtopic you wish. A good place to start is
with the command
send index
which will give you an up-to-date list of available information.
Additions/corrections/suggestions may be directed to the admin,
"bibadmin@siggraph.org".
Image Manipulation Libraries:
-----------------------------
Utah Raster Toolkit - nice image manipulation tools.
PBMPLUS - a great package for image conversion and manipulation.
LIBTIFF - library for reading/writing TIFF images.
ImageMagick - X11 package for display and interactive manipulation
of images. Uses its own format (MIFF), and includes some converters.
xv - X-based image display, manipulation, and format converter.
xloadimage, xli - displays various formats on an X11 screen.
Khoros - a huge, excellent system for image processing, with a visual
programming interface and much much more. Uses X windows.
FBM - another set of image manipulation tools, somewhat old now.
Img - image manipulation, displays on X11 screen, a bit old now.
xflick - Plays .FLI animation under X11
XAnim - plays any resolution FLI along with GIF's(including GIF89a animation
extensions), DL's and Amiga IFF animations(3,5,J,l) and IFF
pictures(including HAM,EHB and color cycling)
SDSC - SDSC Image Tools package (San Diego Supercomputing Center)
for image manipulation and conversion
CLRpaint - A 24-bit paint program for SGI 24bit workstations and 8bit Indigos.
Libraries with code for graphics:
---------------------------------
Graphics Gems I,II,III - code from the ever so useful books.
spline-patch.tar.Z - spline patch ray intersection routines by Sean Graves
kaleido - Computation and 3D Display of Uniform Polyhedra. Mirrored in
wuarchive. This package computes (and displays) the metrical
properties of 75 polyhedra. Author: Dr. Zvi Har'El,
e-mail: rl@gauss.technion.ac.il
(*) means site is an "official" distributor, so is most up to date.
NORTH AMERICA (please look for things on your own continent first...):
-------------
wuarchive.wustl.edu [128.252.135.4]: /graphics/graphics - get CONTENTS file
for a roadmap. /graphics/graphics/objects/TDDD - *the TTDDD objects
and converters*, /mirrors/unix-c/graphics - Rayshade ray tracer, MTV
ray tracer, Vort ray tracer, FBM, PBMPLUS, popi, Utah raster toolkit.
/mirrors/msdos/graphics - DKB ray tracer, FLI RayTracker demos.
/pub/rad.tar.Z - *SGI_RAD*, /graphics/graphics/radiosity - Radiance
and Indian radiosity package. /msdos/ddjmag/ddj9209.zip - version 21
of Xsharp, with fast texture mapping. There's lots more, including
bibs, Graphics Gems I & II code, OFF, RTN, Radiance, NFF, SIPP, spline
patch intersection routines, textbook errata, source code from Roy
Hall's book "Illumination and Color in Computer Generated Imagery", etc
graphics/graphics/packages/kaleido - *kaleido*
George Kyriazis <kyriazis@turing.cs.rpi.edu>
princeton.edu [128.112.128.1]: /pub/Graphics (note capital "G") - *Rayshade
4.0 ray tracer (and separate 387 executable)*, *color quantization
code*, *SPD*, *RT News*, *Wilson's RT abstracts*, "RT bib*, *Utah
Raster Toolkit*, newer FBM, *Graphics Gems I, II & III code*.
/pub/graphics directory - *SALEM* and other stuff.
Craig Kolb <cek@princeton.edu>
[replaces weedeater.math.yale.edu - note the capital "G" in
pub/Graphics] Because there's a trouble with princeton's incoming
area, you can upload Rayshade-specific stuff to
weedeater.math.yale.edu [128.36.23.17]
alfred.ccs.carleton.ca [134.117.1.1]: /pub/dkbtrace - *DKB ray tracer*,
/pub/pov-ray/POV-Ray1.0 - *PVRay Compuserve group ray tracer (or PoV)*.
David Buck <david_buck@carleton.ca>
avalon.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.31.11]: 3D objects (multiple formats),
utilities, file format documents.
This site was created to be a 3D object "repository" for the net.
Francisco X DeJesus <dejesus@archimedes.chinalake.navy.mil>
omicron.cs.unc.edu [152.2.128.159]: pub/softlab/CHVRTD - Chapel Hill
Volume Rendering Test Datasets.
ftp.mv.com [192.80.84.1]: - Official DDJ FTP repository.
*XSHARP*
peipa.essex.ac.uk [155.245.115.161]: the Pilot European Image Processing
Archive; in a directory ipa/synth or something like that, there are
image synthesis packages.
Adrian Clarke <alien@essex.ac.uk>
barkley.berkeley.edu [128.32.142.237] : tcl/extensions/tsipp3.0b.tar.Z -
*Tcl-SIPP*
Mark Diekhans <markd@grizzly.com or markd@NeoSoft.com>
acs.cps.msu.edu [35.8.56.90]: pub/sass - *X window fonts converter into
Rayshade 3.0 polygons*, Rayshade animation tool(s).
Ron Sass <sass@cps.msu.edu>
hobbes.lbl.gov [128.3.12.38]: *Radiance* ray trace/radiosity package.
Greg Ward <gjward@lbl.gov>
geom.umn.edu [128.101.25.31] : pub/geomview - *GEOMVIEW*
Contact (for GEOMVIEW): software@geom.umn.edu
ftp.arc.umn.edu [137.66.130.11] : pub/gvl.tar.Z - the latest version of Bob,
Icol and Raz. Source, a manual, man pages, and binaries for
IRIX 4.0.5 are included (Bob is a real time volume renderer)
pub/ contains also many volume datasets.
Ken Chin-Purcell <ken@ahpcrc.umn.edu>
ftp.kpc.com [144.52.120.9] : /pub/graphics/holl91 - Steve Hollasch's
Thesis, /pub/graphics/ray4 - *RAY4*, /pub/graphics/wire4 - *WIRE4*.
/pub/mirror/avalon - mirror of avalon's 3D objects repository.
Steve Hollasch <hollasch@kpc.com>
swedishchef.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.54.33] : programs/hollasch-4d - RAY4,
SGI Explorer modules and Postscript manual, etc.
zamenhof.cs.rice.edu [128.42.1.75] : pub/graphics.formats - Various electronic
documents about many object and image formats.
Mark Hall <foo@cs.rice.edu>
will apparently no longer be maintaining it, see ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu.
rascal.ics.utexas.edu [128.83.144.1]: /misc/mac/inqueue - VISION-3D facet
based modeller, can output RayShade and Radiance files.
ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.20.50] : misc/file.formats/graphics.formats -
contains various image- and object-format descriptions. Many SciVi
tools in various directories, e.g. SGI/Alpha-shape/Alvis-1.0.tar.Z -
3D alpha-shape visualizer (SGI machines only),
SGI/Polyview3.0/polyview.Z - interactive visualization and analysis of
3D geometrical structures.
Quincey Koziol <koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
tucana.noao.edu [140.252.1.1] : /iraf - the IRAF astronomy package
ftp.ipl.rpi.edu [128.113.14.50]: sigma/erich - SPD images and Haines thesis
images. pub/images - various 24 and 8 bit image stills and sequences.
Kevin Martin <sigma@ipl.rpi.edu>
ftp.psc.edu [128.182.66.148]: pub/p3d - p3d_2_0.tar P3D lispy scene
language & renderers. Joel Welling <welling@seurat.psc.edu>
ftp.ee.lbl.gov [128.3.254.68]: *pbmplus.tar.Z*, RayShade data files.
Jef Poskanzer <jef@ace.ee.lbl.gov>
george.lbl.gov [128.3.196.93]: pub/ccs-lib/ccs.tar.Z - *CCS (Complex
Conversion System), a standard software interface for image processing*
hanauma.stanford.edu [36.51.0.16]: /pub/graphics/Comp.graphics - best of
comp.graphics (very extensive), ray-tracers - DBW, MTV, QRT, and more.
Joe Dellinger <joe@hanauma.stanford.edu>
ftp.uu.net [192.48.96.2]: /graphics - *IRIT*, RT News back issues (not
complete), NURBS models, other graphics related material.
/graphics/jpeg/jpegsrc.v?.tar.Z - Independent JPEG Group package for
reading and writing JPEG files.
freebie.engin.umich.edu [141.212.68.23]: *Utah Raster Toolkit*,
Spencer Thomas <thomas@eecs.umich.edu>
export.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.0.12] : /contrib - pbmplus, Image Magick, xloadimage,
xli, xv, Img, lots more. /pub/R5untarred/mit/demos/gpc - NCGA Graphics
Performance Characterization (GPC) Suite.
life.pawl.rpi.edu [128.113.10.2]: /pub/ray - *Kyriazis stochastic Ray Tracer*.
George Kyriazis <kyriazis@turing.cs.rpi.edu>
cs.utah.edu [128.110.4.21]: /pub - Utah raster toolkit, *NURBS databases*.
Jamie Painter <jamie@cs.utah.edu>
gatekeeper.dec.com [16.1.0.2]: /pub/DEC/off.tar.Z - *OFF models*,
Also GPC Benchmark files (planned, but not checked).
Randi Rost <rost@kpc.com>
hubcap.clemson.edu [130.127.8.1]: /pub/amiga/incoming/imagine - stuff for the
Amiga Imagine & Turbo Silver ray tracers. /pub/amiga/TTDDDLIB -
*TTDDDLIB* /pub/amiga/incoming/imagine/objects - MANY objects.
Glenn Lewis <glewis@pcocd2.intel.com>
pprg.eece.unm.edu [129.24.24.10]: /pub/khoros - *Khoros image processing
package (huge, but great)*.
Danielle Argiro <danielle@bullwinkle.unm.edu>
expo.lcs.mit.edu [18.30.0.212]: contrib - *PBMPLUS portable bitmap package*,
*poskbitmaptars bitmap collection*, *Raveling Img*, xloadimage. Jef
Poskanzer <jef@well.sf.ca.us>
venera.isi.edu [128.9.0.32]: */pub/Img.tar.z and img.tar.z - some image
manipulation*, /pub/images - RGB separation photos.
Paul Raveling <raveling@venera.isi.edu>
ucsd.edu [128.54.16.1]: /graphics - utah rle toolkit, pbmplus, fbm,
databases, MTV, DBW and other ray tracers, world map, other stuff.
Not updated much recently.
castlab.engr.wisc.edu [128.104.52.10]: /pub/x3d.2.2.tar.Z - *X3D*
/pub/xdart.1.1.* - *XDART*
Mark Spychalla <spy@castlab.engr.wisc.edu>
sgi.com [192.48.153.1]: /graphics/tiff - TIFF 6.0 spec & *LIBTIFF* software
and pics. Also much SGI- and GL-related stuff (e.g. OpenGL manuals)
Sam Leffler <sam@sgi.com>
[supercedes okeeffe.berkeley.edu for the LIBTIFF stuff]
surya.waterloo.edu [129.97.129.72]: /graphics - FBM, ray tracers
ftp.sdsc.edu [132.249.20.22]: /sdscpub - *SDSC*
ftp.brl.mil [128.63.16.158]: /brl-cad - information on how to get the
BRL CAD package & ray tracer. /images - various test images.
A texture library has also begun here.
Lee A. Butler <butler@BRL.MIL>
cicero.cs.umass.edu [128.119.40.189]: /texture_temp - 512x512 grayscale
Brodatz textures,
from Julien Flack <julien@scs.leeds.ac.uk>.
karazm.math.uh.edu [129.7.7.6]: pub/Graphics/rtabs.shar.12.90.Z - *Wilson's
RT abstracts*, VM_pRAY.
J. Eric Townsend <jet@karazm.math.uh.edu or jet@nas.nasa.gov>
ftp.pitt.edu [130.49.253.1]: /users/qralston/images - 24 bit image archive
(small). James Ralston Crawford <qralston@gl.pitt.edu>
ftp.tc.cornell.edu [128.84.201.1]: /pub/vis - *VREND*
sunee.waterloo.edu [129.97.50.50]: /pub/raytracers - vivid, *REND386*
[or sunee.uwaterloo.ca]
archive.umich.edu [141.211.164.153]: /msdos/graphics - PC graphics stuff.
/msdos/graphics/raytrace - VIVID2.
apple.apple.com [130.43.2.2?]: /pub/ArchiveVol2/prt.
research.att.com [192.20.225.2]: /netlib/graphics - *SPD package*, ~/polyhedra -
*polyhedra databases*. (If you don't have FTP, use the netlib
automatic mail replier: UUCP - research!netlib, Internet -
netlib@ornl.gov. Send one line message "send index" for more info,
"send haines from graphics" to get the SPD)
siggraph.org [128.248.245.250]: SIGGRAPH archive site.
publications - *Online Bibliography Project*, Conference proceedings
in various electronic formats (papers, panels), SIGGRAPH Video Review
information and order forms.
Other stuff in various directories.
Automatic mailer is archive-server@siggraph.org ("send index").
ftp.cs.unc.edu [128.109.136.159]: pub/reaction_diffusion - Greg Turk's work on
reaction-diffusion textures, X windows code (SIGGRAPH '91)
avs.ncsc.org [128.109.178.23]: ~ftp/VolVis92 - Volume datasets from the
Boston Workshop on Volume Visualization '92. This site is also the
International AVS Center.
Terry Myerson <tvv@ncsc.org>
uvacs.cs.virginia.edu [128.143.8.100]: pub/suit/demo/{sparc,dec,etc} - SUIT
(Simple User Interface Toolkit). "finger suit@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu"
to get detailed instructions.
nexus.yorku.ca [130.63.9.66]: /pub/reports/Radiosity_code.tar.Z - *RAD*
/pub/reports/Radiosity_thesis.ps.Z - *RAD MSc. Thesis*
[This site will be changed to ftp.yorku.ca in the near future]
milton.u.washington.edu [128.95.136.1] - ~ftp/public/veos - VEOS Virtual
Reality and distributed applications prototyping environment
for Unix. Veos Software Support : veos-support@hitl.washington.edu
oldpublic/fly - FLY! 3D Visualization Software demo.
That package is built for "fly-throughs" from various datasets in
near real-time. There are binaries for many platforms.
Also, much other Virtual Reality stuff.
zug.csmil.umich.edu [141.211.184.2]: X-Xpecs 3D files (an LCD glass shutter
for Amiga computers - great for VR stuff!)
sugrfx.acs.syr.edu [128.230.24.1]: Various stereo-pair images.
[ Has closed down :-( ]
sunsite.unc.edu [152.2.22.81]: /pub/academic/computer-science/virtual-reality -
Final copy of the sugrfx.acs.syr.edu archive that ceased to exist.
It contains Powerglove code, VR papers, 3D images and IRC research
material.
Jonathan Magid <jem@sunSITE.unc.edu>
archive.cis.ohio-state.edu [128.146.8.52]: pub/siggraph92 - Code for
Siggraph '92 Course 23 (Procedural Modeling and Rendering Techniques)
Dr. David S. Ebert <ebert@cis.ohio-state.edu>
lyapunov.ucsd.edu [132.239.86.10]: This machine is considered the
repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics,
signal processing, and related subjects (and fractals, of course!)
Matt Kennel <mbk@inls1.ucsd.edu>
cod.nosc.mil [128.49.16.5]: /pub/grid.{ps,tex,ascii} - a short survey of
methods to interpolate and contour bivariate data
ics.uci.edu [128.195.1.1]: /honig --- Various stereo-pair images,
movie.c - animates a movie on an X display (8-bit and mono) with
digital subtraction.
taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil [131.120.1.13]: pub/dabro/cyberware_demo.tar.Z - Human
head data
pioneer.unm.edu [129.24.9.217]: pub/texture_maps - Hans du Buf's grayscale
test textures (aerial swatches, Brodatz textures, synthetic swatches).
Space & planetary image repository. Provides access to >150 CD-ROMS
with data/images (3 on-line at a time).
pub/info/beginner-info - here you should start browsing.
Colby Kraybill <opus@pioneer.unm.edu>.
cs.brown.edu [128.148.33.66] : *SRGP/SPHIGS* . For more info on SRGP/SPHIGS:
mail -s 'software-distribution' graphtext@cs.brown.edu
pdb.pdb.bnl.gov [130.199.144.1] has data about various organic molecules,
bonds between the different atoms, etc.
Atomic coordinates (and a load of other stuff) are contained in the
"*.ent" files, but the actual atomic dimemsions seem to be missing.
You could convert these data to PoV, rayshade, etc.
biome.bio.ns.ca [142.2.20.2] : /pub/art - some Renoir paintings,
Escher's pictures, etc.
ic16.ee.umanitoba.ca [] : /specmark - sample set of images from the
`Images from the Edge' CD-ROM (images of atomic landscapes, advanced
semiconductors, superconductors and experimental surface
chemistry among others). Contact ruskin@ee.umanitoba.ca
explorer.dgp.toronto.edu [128.100.1.129] : pub/sgi/clrpaint - *CLRpaint*
pub/sgi/clrview.* - CLRview, a tool that aids in visualization
of GIS datasets in may formats like DXF, DEM, Arc/Info, etc.
ames.arc.nasa.gov [128.102.18.3]: pub/SPACE/CDROM - images from Magellan
and Viking missions etc. Get pub/SPACE/Index first.
pub/SPACELINK has most of the SpaceLink service data (see below)
e-mail server available: send mail to archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov
(or ames!archive-server) with subject:"help"
or "send SPACE Index" (without the quotes!)
Peter Yee <yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov>
pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.6.2]: images, other data, etc. from JPL
missions. Modem access at (818)-354-1333 (no parity, 8 data bits, 1
stop bit).
newsdesk@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov or phone (818)-354-7170
spacelink.msfc.nasa.gov [128.158.13.250] (passwd:guest) : space graphics
and GIF images from NASA's planetary probes and the Hubble Telescope.
Main function is support for teachers (you can telnet also to this
site). Dial up access: (205)-895-0028 (300/1200/2400/9600(V.32) baud,
8 bits, no parity, 1 stop bit).
stsci.edu [130.167.1.2] : Hubble Space Telescope stuff (images and other
data). Read the README first!
Pete Reppert <reppert@stsci.edu> or Chris O'Dea <odea@stsci.edu>
pit-manager.mit.edu [18.172.1.27]: /pub/usenet/news.answers - the land of
FAQs. graphics and pictures directories of particular interest.
[Also available from mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu by sending a mail
message containing: help]
UUCP archive: avatar - RT News back issues. For details, write Kory Hamzeh
<kory@avatar.avatar.com>
EUROPE:
-------
nic.funet.fi [128.214.6.100]: *pub/sci/papers - *Paper bank project,
including Pete Shirley's entire thesis (with pics)*, *Wilson's RT
abstracts*, pub/misc/CIA_WorldMap - CIA world data bank,
comp.graphics.research archive, *India*, and much, much more.
Juhana Kouhia <jk87377@cs.tut.fi>
dasun2.epfl.ch [128.178.62.2]: Radiance. Good for European sites, but
doesn't carry the add-ons that are available for Radiance.
isy.liu.se [130.236.1.3]: pub/sipp/sipp-3.0.tar.Z - *SIPP* scan line z-buffer
and Phong shading renderer. Jonas Yngvesson <jonas-y@isy.liu.se>
irisa.fr [131.254.2.3]: */iPSC2/VM_pRAY ray tracer*, SPD, /NFF - many non-SPD
NFF format scenes, RayShade data files. Didier Badouel
<badouel@irisa.irisa.fr> [may have disappeared]
phoenix.oulu.fi [130.231.240.17]: *FLI RayTracker animation files (PC VGA) -
also big .FLIs (640*480)* *RayScene demos* [Americans: check wuarchive
first]. More animations to come. Jari Kahkonen
<hole@phoenix.oulu.fi>
jyu.fi [128.214.7.5]: /pub/graphics/ray-traces - many ray tracers, including
VM_pRAY, DBW, DKB, MTV, QRT, RayShade, some RT News, NFF files. Jari
Toivanen <toivanen@jyu.fi>
garbo.uwasa.fi [128.214.87.1]: Much PC stuff, etc., /pc/source/contour.f -
FORTRAN program to contour scattered data using linear triangle-based
interpolation
asterix.inescn.pt [192.35.246.17]: pub/RTrace - *RTrace* nffutils.tar.Z (NFF
utilities for RTrace), medical data (CAT, etc.) converters to NFF,
Autocad to NFF Autolisp code, AUTOCAD 11 to SCN (RTrace's language)
converter and other goodies. Antonio Costa (acc@asterix.inescn.pt)
vega.hut.fi [128.214.3.82]: /graphics - RTN archive, ray tracers (MTV, QRT,
others), NFF, some models.
[ It was shut down months ago , check under nic.funet.fi -- nfotis ]
sun4nl.nluug.nl [192.16.202.2]: /pub/graphics/raytrace - DBW.microray, MTV, etc
unix.hensa.ac.uk [] : misc/unix/ralcgm/ralcgm.tar.Z - CGM viewer and
converter.
There's an e-mail server also - mail to archive@unix.hensa.ac.uk
with the message body "send misc/unix/ralcgm/ralcgm.tar.Z"
maeglin.mt.luth.se [130.240.0.25]: graphics/raytracing - prt, others, ~/Doc -
*Wilson's RT abstracts*, Vivid.
ftp.fu-berlin.de [130.20.225.2]: /pub/unix/graphics/rayshade4.0/inputs -
aq.tar.Z is RayShade aquarium [Americans: check princeton.edu first).
Heiko Schlichting <heiko@math.fu-berlin.de>
maggia.ethz.ch [129.132.17.1]: pub/inetray - *Inetray* and Sun RPC 4.0 code
Andreas Thurnherr <ant@ips.id.ethz.ch>
osgiliath.id.dth.dk [129.142.65.24]: /pub/amiga/graphics/Radiance - *Amiga
port of Radiance 2.0*. Per Bojsen <bojsen@ithil.id.dth.dk>
ftp.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de [134.106.1.9] : *PoV raytracer*
Mirrored in wuarchive, has many goods for PoV.
pub/dkbtrace/incoming/polyray - Polyray raytracer
pub/dkbtrace/incoming/pv3d* - *PV3D*
ftp.uni-kl.de [131.246.9.95]: /pub/amiga/raytracing/imagine - mirror of
the hubcap Imagine files.
neptune.inf.ethz.ch [129.132.101.33]: XYZ - *XYZ GeoBench*
Peter Schorn <schorn@inf.ethz.ch>
iamsun.unibe.ch [130.92.64.10]: /Graphics/graphtal* - a L-system interpreter.
Christoph Streit <streit@iam.unibe.ch>
amiga.physik.unizh.ch [130.60.80.80]: /amiga/gfx - Graphics stuff
for the Amiga computer.
stesis.hq.eso.org [134.171.8.100]: on-line access to a huge astronomical
database. (login:starcat;no passwd)
DECnet:STESIS (It's the Space Telescope European Coordination Facility)
Benoit Pirenne <bpirenne@eso.org>, phone +49 89 320 06 433
MIDDLE EAST
-----------
gauss.technion.ac.il [132.68.112.60]: *kaleida*
AUSTRALIA:
----------
gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au [128.250.70.62]: pub - *VORT(ART) ray tracer*, *VOGLE*,
Wilson's ray tracing abstracts, /pub/contrib/artscenes (ART scenes from
Italy), pub/images/haines - Haines thesis images, Graphics Gems code,
SPD, NFF & OFF databases, NFF and OFF previewers, plus some 8- and
24bit images and lots of other stuff. pub/rad.tar.Z - *SGI_RAD*
Bernie Kirby <bernie@ecr.mu.oz.au>
munnari.oz.au [128.250.1.21]: pub/graphics/vort.tar.Z - *VORT (ART) 2.1 CSG and
algebraic surface ray tracer*, *VOGLE*, /pub - DBW, pbmplus. /graphics
- room.tar.Z (ART scenes from Italy).
David Hook <dgh@munnari.oz.au>
marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au [134.7.1.1]: pub/graphics/bibliography/Facial_Animation,
pub/graphics/bibliography/Morph, pub/graphics/bibliography/UI -
stuff about Facial animation, Morphing and User Interfaces.
pub/fascia - Fred Parke's fascia program.
Valerie Hall <val@lillee.cs.curtin.edu.au>
OCEANIA - ASIA:
---------------
ccu1.aukland.ac.nz [130.216.1.5]: ftp/mac/architec - *VISION-3D facet
based modeller, can output RayShade files*. Many other neat things
for Macs. Paul Bourke <pdbourke@ccu1.aukland.ac.nz>
scslwide.sony.co.jp [133.138.199.1]: ftp2/SGI/Facial-Animation - Steve Franks
site for facial animation.
Steve Franks <stevef@csl.sony.co.jp OR stevef@cs.umr.edu>
4. Mail servers and graphics-oriented BBSes
===========================================
Please check first with the FTP places above, with archie's help.
Don't overuse mail servers.
There are some troubles with wrong return addresses. Many of these
mail servers have a command like
path a_valid_return_e-mail_address
to get a hint for sending back to you stuff.
DEC's FTPMAIL
-------------
Send a one-line message to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com WITHOUT a Subject: field,
and having a line containing the word 'help'.
You should get back a message detailing the relevant procedures you
must follow in order to get the files you want.
Note that the "reply" or "answer" command in your mailer will not work
for this message or any other mail you receive from FTPMAIL. To send
requests to FTPMAIL, send an original mail message, not a reply.
Complaints should be sent to the ftpmail-request@uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com
address rather than to postmaster, since DECWRL's postmaster is not
responsible for fixing ftpmail problems.
BITFTP
------
For BITNET sites ONLY, there's BITFTP@PUCC.
Send a one-line 'help' message to this address for more info.
Lightwave 3D mail based file-server
-----------------------------------
A mail based file server for 3D objects, 24bit JPEG images, GIF images
and image maps is now online for all those with Internet mail access.
The server is the official archive site for the Lightwave 3D mail-list
and contains many PD and Shareware graphics utilities for
several computer platforms including Amiga, Atari, IBM and Macintosh.
The server resides on a BBS called "The Graphics BBS". The BBS is
operational 24 hours a day 7 days a week at the phone number of +1
908/469-0049. It has upgraded its modem to a Hayes Ultra 144
V.32bis/V.42bis, which has speeds from 300bps up to 38,400bps.
If you would like to submit objects, scenes or images to the server,
please pack, uuencode and then mail the files to the address:
server@bobsbox.rent.com.
For information on obtaining files from the server send a mail message
to the address file-server@graphics.rent.com with the following in
the body of the message:
HELP
/DIR
And a help file describing how to use the server and a complete
directory listing will be sent to you via mail.
[ Now it includes the Cyberware head and shouders in TTDDD format! Check it
out, only if you can't use FTP! -- nfotis ]
INRIA-GRAPHLIB
--------------
Pierre Jancene and Sabine Coquillart launched the inria-graphlib mail
server a few months ago.
echo help | mail inria-graphlib@inria.fr
will give you a quick summary of what inria-graphlib contains and
how to browse among its files.
echo send contents | mail inria-graphlib@inria.fr
will return the extended summary.
As an other example :
echo send cgrl from Misc | mail inria-graphlib@inria.fr
will return the Computer Graphics Resource Listing mirrored from
comp.graphics.
BBSes
-----
There are many BBSes that store datafiles, etc.etc., but a guide to these
is beyond the scope of this Listing (and the resources of the author!)
If you can point to me Internet- or mail- accessible BBSes that carry
interesting stuff, send me info!
Studio Amiga is a 3D modelling and ray tracing specific BBS, (817) 467-3658.
24 hours, 105 Meg online.
--
From Jeff Walkup <pwappy@well.sf.ca.us>:
"The Castle" 415/355-2396 (14.4K/v.32bis/v.42/v.42bis/MNP)
(In Pacifica, dang close to San Francisco, California, USA)
The new-user password is: "TAO".
[J]oin base #2; The Castle G/FX, Anim, Video, 3D S.I.G., of which
I am the SIG-Op, "Lazerus".
--
Bob Lindabury operates a BBS (see above the entry for "The Graphics BBS")
--
'You Can Call Me Ray' ray tracing related BBS in Chicago suburbs (708-358-5611)
or (708-358-8721)
--
Digital Pixel (Sysop: Mark Ng <mcng@descartes.waterloo.edu>) is based at
Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Phone : (416) 298 1487
Storage space: 330 megs
Modem type: 14.4k baud,16.8k (Zyxel) , v32bis ,v32, mnp 5
Access Fee: none.. (free)
System supported : DOS, OS/2, Amiga, Mac.
Netmail: Currently no echo mail.
Topics: Raytracing, Fractals, Graphics programming, CAD, Any Comp.
Graphics related
--
From: David Tiberio <dtiberio@ic.sunysb.edu>
Amiga Graphics BBS (516) 473-6351 in Long Island, New York,
running 24 hours at 14.4k v.32bis, with 157 megs on line.
We also subscribe to 9 mailing lists, of which 5 originate
from our BBS, with 3 more to be added soon. These include:
Lightwave, Imagine, Real 3D (ray tracing)
Database files include:
Imagine 3D objects, 3D renderings, scalable fonts, music
modules, sound samples, demos, animations, utilities,
text databases, and pending Lightwave 3D objects.
--
The Graphics Alternative
The Graphics Alternative is in El Cerrito, CA., running 24 hours a
day at 14.4k HST/v.32bis, with 642MB online and a 1300+ user base.
TGA runs two nodes, node 1 (510) 524-2780 is for public access and
includes a free 90 day trial subscription. TGA is the West Coast
Host for PCGnet, The Profesional CAD and Graphics Network, supporting
nodes across the Continental U.S., Alaska, New Zealand, Australia,
France and the UK.
TGA's file database includes MS-DOS executables for POV, Vivid,
RTrace, Rayshade, Polyray, and others. TGA also has numerous
graphics utilities, viewers, and conversion utilities. Registered
Vivid users can also download the latest Vivid aeta code from a
special Vivid conference.
--
From: Scott Bethke <sbathkey@access.digex.com>
The Intersection BBS, 410-250-7149.
This BBS Is dedicated to supporting 3D Animators.The system is provided
FREE OF CHARGE, and is NOT Commercialized in ANYWAY.
Users are given FULL Access on the first call.
Features: Usenet NEWS & Internet Mail, Fidonet Echo's & Netmail,
200 Megs online, V.32bis/V.42bis Modem.
Platforms of interest: Amiga & The VideoToaster, Macintosh, Ms-Dos,
Unix Workstations (Sun, SGI, etc), Atari-ST.
--
From: Alfonso Hermida <afanh@robots.gsfc.nasa.gov>:
Pi Square BBS (301)725-9080 in Maryland. It supports raytracers such as POV
and VIVID. The BBS runs off a 486/33Mhz, 100Megs hard drive and CD ROM.
Now it runs on 1200-2400bps (this will change soon)
Topics: graphics programming, animation,raytracing,programming (general)
--
From: Lynn Falkow <ROXXIE@delphi.com>:
Vertech Design's GRAPHIC CONNECTION. (503) 591-8412 in Portland, Oregon.
V.32/V.42bis.
The BBS, aside from carrying typical BBS services like message bases
( all topic specific ) and files ( CAD and graphics related -- hundreds
of megabytes ), also offers material texture files that are full color,
seamlessly tiling, photo-realistic images. There are samples available
to first time callers. The BBS is a subscription system although callers
have 2 hours before they must subscribe, and there are several subscription
rates available. People interested in materials can subscribe to the
library in addition to a basic subscription rate, and can use their
purchased time to download whichever materials they wish.
==========================================================================
5. Ray-tracing/graphics-related mailing lists
=============================================
Imagine
-------
Modeling and animation system for the Amiga:
send subscription requests to Imagine-request@email.sp.paramax.com
send material to Imagine@email.sp.paramax.com
(Dave Wickard has substituted Steve Worley in the maintenance of
the mailing list) - PLEASE note that the unisys.com address is
NO longer valid!!!
Lightwave
---------
(for the Amiga. It's part of Newtek's Video Toaster):
send subscription requests to lightwave-request@bobsbox.rent.com
send material to lightwave@bobsbox.rent.com
(Bob Lindabury)
Toaster
-------
send subscription requests to listserv@karazm.math.uh.edu with a *body* of:
subscribe toaster-list
Real 3D
-------
Another modeling and animation system for the Amiga:
To subscribe, send a mail containing the body
subscribe real3d-l <Your full name>
to listserv@gu.uwa.edu.au
Rayshade
--------
send subscription requests to rayshade-request@cs.princeton.edu
send material to rayshade-users@cs.princeton.edu
(Craig Kolb)
Alladin 4D for the Amiga
----------
send subscription requests to subscribe@xamiga.linet.org
and in the body of the message write
#Alladin 4D username@domain
Radiance
--------
Greg Ward, the author, sends to registered (via e-mail) users digests of
his correspodence with them, notes about fixes, updates, etc.
His address is: gjward@lbl.gov
REND386
-------
send subscription requests to rend386-request@sunee.waterloo.edu
send material to rend386@sunee.waterloo.edu
PoV ray / DKB raytracers
------------------------
To subscribe, send a mail containing the body
subscribe dkb-l <Your full name>
to listserv@trearn.bitnet
send material to dkb-l@trearn.bitnet
Mailing List for Massively Parallel Rendering
---------------------------------------------
send subscription requests to mp-render-request@icase.edu
send material to mp-render@icase.edu
==========================================================================
6. 3D graphics editors
======================
a. Public domain, free and shareware systems
============================================
VISION-3D
---------
Mac-based program written by Paul D. Bourke (pdbourke@ccu1.aukland.ac.nz).
The program can be used to generate models directly in the RayShade
and Radiance file formats (polygons only).
It's shareware and listed on the FTP list.
BRL
---
A solid modeling system for most environments -- including SGI and X11.
It has CSG and NURBS, plus support for Non-Manifold Geometry
[Whatever it is].
You can get it *free* via FTP by signing and returning the relevant license,
found on ftp.brl.mil. Uses ray-tracing for engineering analyses.
Contact:
Ms. Carla Moyer
(410)-273-7794 tel.
(410)-272-6763 FAX
cad-dist@brl.mil E-mail
Snail mail:
BRL-CAD Distribution
SURVIAC Aberdeen Satellite Office 1003
Old Philadelphia Road,
Suite 103 Aberdeen
MD 21001 USA
IRIT
----
A constructive solid geometry (CSG) modeling program for PC and X11.
Includes freeform surface support. Free - see FTP list for where to
find it.
SurfModel
---------
A solid modeling program for PC written in Turbo Pascal 6.0 by
Ken Van Camp. Available from SIMTEL, pd1:<msdos.srfmodl> directory.
NOODLES
-------
From CMU, namely Fritz Printz and Levent Gursoz (elg@styx.edrc.cmu.edu).
It's based on Non Manifold Topology.
Ask them for more info, I don't know if they give it away.
XYZ2
----
XYZ2 is an interactive 3-D editor/builder written by Dale P. Stocker to
create objects for the SurfaceModel, Automove, and DKB raytracer packages.
XYZ2 is free and can be found, for example, in SIMTEL20 as
<MSDOS.SURFMODL>XYZ21.ZIP (DOS only??)
3DMOD
-----
It's an MSDOS program. Check at barnacle.erc.clarkson.edu [128.153.28.12],
/pub/msdos/graphics/3dmod.* . Undocumented file format :-(
3DMOD is (C) 1991 by Micah Silverman, 25 Pierrepoint Ave., Postdam,
New York 13676, tel. 315-265-7140
NORTHCAD
--------
Shareware, <MSDOS.CAD>NCAD3D42.ZIP in SIMTEL20. Undocumented file format :-(
Vertex
------
(Amiga)
Shareware, send $40 US (check or money order) to:
The Art Machine, 4189 Nickolas
Sterling Heights, MI 48310
USA
In addition to the now standard file formats, including Lightwave,
Imagine, Sculpt, Turbo Silver, GEO and Wavefront, this release offers
3D Professional and RayShade support. (Rayshade is supported only by
the primitive "triangle", but you can easily include this output in
your RayShade scripts)
The latest demo, version 1.62, is available on Fred Fish #727.
For more information, contact the author, Alex Deburie, at:
ad99s461@sycom.mi.org, Phone: (313) 939-2513
ICoons
------
(Amiga)
It's a spline based object modeller ("ICoons" = Interactive
COONS path editor) in amiga.physik.unizh.ch (gfx/3d/ICoons1.0.lzh).
It's free (under the GNU Licence) and requires FPU.
The program has a look&feel which is a cross between Journeyman and
Imagine, and it generates objects in TTDDD format.
It is possible to load Journeyman objects into ICoons, so the program
can be used to convert JMan objects to Imagine format.
Author: Helge E. Rasmussen <her@compel.dk>
PHONE + 45 36 72 33 00, FAX + 45 36 72 43 00
[ It's also on Fred Fish disk series n.775 - nfotis ]
ProtoCAD 3D
-----------
Ver 1.1 from Trius (shareware?)
It's at wsmr-simtel20.army.mil and oak.oakland.edu as PCAD3D.ZIP (for PCs)
It has this menu layout:
FILE File handling (Load, Save, Import, Xport...)
DRAW Draw 2D objects (Line, Circle, Box...)
3D Draw 3D objects (Mesh, Sphere, Block...)
EDIT Editing features (Copy, Move ...)
SURFACE Modify objects (Revolve, Xtrude, Sweep...)
IMAGE Image zooming features (Update, Window, Half...)
OPTION Global defaults (Grid, Toggles, Axis...)
PLOT Print drawing/picture (Go, Image...)
RENDER Shade objects (Frame, Lighting, Tune...)
LAYER Layer options (Select active layer, set Colors...)
+Sculptura
+---------
+ Runs under Windows 3.1, and outputs PoV files. A demo can be found
+ on wuarchive.wustl.edu in mirrors/win3/demo/demo3d.zip
+
+ Author: Michael Gibson <gibsonm@stein.u.washington.edu>
b. Commercial systems
=====================
Alpha_1
-------
A spline-based modeling program written in University of Utah.
Features: splines up to trimmed NURBS; support for boolean operations;
sweeps, bending, warping, flattening etc.; groups of objects, and
transformations; extensible object types.
Applications include: NC machining, Animation utilities,
Dimensioning, FEM analysis, etc.
Rendering subsystem, with support for animations.
Support the following platforms: HP 300 and 800's (X11R4, HP-UX 6.5),
SGI 4D or PI machines (X11R4 and GL, IRIX 3.3.1), Sun SparcStation
(X11R4, SunOS 4.1.1).
Licensing and distribution is handled by EGS:
Glenn McMinn, President
Engineering Geometry Systems
275 East South Temple, Suite 305
Salt Lake City, UT 84111
(801) 575-6021
mcminn@cs.utah.edu
[ Educational pricing ]
The charge is $675 per platform. You may run the system on as many
different workstations of that type as you wish. For each platform
there is also a $250 licensing fee for Portable Standard Lisp (PSL)
which is bundled with the system. You need to obtain an additional
license from the University of Utah for PSL from the following address:
Professor Robert Kessler
Computer Science Department
University of Utah
Salt Lake City, Utah 84112
[ EGS can handle the licensing of PSL for U.S. institutions for a
300 $USD nominal fee -- nfotis ]
VERTIGO
-------
They have an Educational Institution Program. The package is used in
the industrial design, architectural, scientific visualization,
educational, broadcast, imaging and post production fields.
They'll [quoting from a letter sent to me -- nfotis ] "donate fully
configured Vertigo 3D Graphics Software worth over $29,000USD per
package to qualified educational institutions for licencing on any
number of Silicon Graphics Personal IRIS or POWER Series Workstations.
If you use an IRIS Indigo station, we will also licence our Vertigo
Revolution Software (worth $12,000USD).
If you are interested in participating in this program please send a
letter by mail or fax (604/684-2108) on your institution's letterhead
briefly outlining your potential uses for Vertigo together with the
following information: 1. UNIX version 2. Model and number of SGI
systems 3. Peripheral devices 4. Third Party Software.
Participants will be asked to contribute $750USD per institution to cover
costs of the manual, administration, and shipping.
We recommend that Vertigo users subscribe to our technical support
services. For an annual fee you will receive: technical assistance
on our support hotline, bug fixes, software upgrades and manual updates.
For educational institution we will waive the $750 administration fee
if support is purchased.
The annual support fee is $2,500 plus the following cost for additional
machines:
Number of machines: 2-20 20+
Additional cost per machine: $700 $600 "
[ There's also a 5-day training program - nfotis]
Contact:
Vertigo Technology INC
Suite 1010
1030 West Georgia St.
VANCOUVER, BC
CANADA, V6E 2Y3
Phone: 604/684-2113
Fax: 604/684-2108
[ Does anyone know of such offers from TDI, Alias, Softimage, Wavefront,
etc.??? this would be a VERY interesting part!! -- nfotis ]
PADL-2
------
[ Basically, it's a Solid Modeling Kernel in top of which you build your
application(s)]
Available by license from
Cornell Programmable Automation
Cornell University
106 Engineering and Theory Center
Ithaca, NY 14853
License fees are very low for educational institutions and gov't agencies.
Internal commercial licenses and re-dissemination licenses are available.
For an information packet, write to the above address, or send your
address to: marisa@cpa.tn.cornell.edu (Richard Marisa)
ACIS
----
From Spatial Technology. It's a Solid Modelling kernel callable from C.
Heard that many universities got free copies from the company.
The person to contact regarding ACIS in academic institutions is
Scott Owens, e-mail: sdo@spatial.com
And their address is:
Spatial Technology, Inc.
2425 55th St., Bldg. A
Boulder, CO 80301-5704
Phone: (303) 449-0649, Fax: (303) 449-0926
MOVIE-BYU / CQUEL.BYU
---------------------
Basically [in my understanding], this is a FEM pre- and post-proccessor
system. It's fairly old today, but it still serves some people in
Mech. Eng. Depts.
Now it's superseded from CQUEL.BYU (pronounced "sequel"). That's a
complete modelling, animation and visualization package. Runs in the usual
workstation environments (SUN, DEC, HP, SGI, IBM RS6000, and others)
You can get a demo version (30-days trial period) either by sending $20
USD in their address or a blank tape. It costs 1,500 for a full run-time
licence.
Contact:
Engineering Computer Graphics Lab
368 Clyde Building, Brigham Young Univ.
Provo, UT 84602
Phone: 801-378-2812
E-mail: cquel@byu.edu
twixt
-----
Soon to add stuff about it... If I get a reply to my FAX
VOXBLAST
--------
It's a volume renderer marketed by:
Vaytek Inc. (Fairfield, Iowa phone: 515-472-2227) , running on PCs
with 386+FPU at least. Call Vaytek for more info.
VoxelBox
--------
A 3D Volume renderer for Windows. Features include direct
ray-traced volume rendering, color and alpha mapping,
gradient lighting, animation, reflections and shadows.
Runs on a PC(386 or higher) with at least an 8 bit video card(SVGA is fine)
under Windows 3.x. It costs $495.
Contact:
Jaguar Software Inc.
573 Main St., Suite 9B
Winchester, MA 01890
(617) 729-3659
jwp@world.std.com (john w poduska)
==========================================================================
7. Scene description languages
==============================
NFF
---
Neutral file format , by Eric Haines. Very simple, there are some
procedural database generators in the SPD package, and many objects
floating in various FTP sites. There's also a previewer written in
HP Starbase from E.Haines. Also there's one written in VOGLE, so you can
use any of the devices VOGLE can output on.
(Check in sites carrying VOGLE, like gondwana.ecr.mu.oz.au)
OFF
---
Object file format, from DEC's Randy Rost (rost@kpc.com).
[ The object archive server seems to be mothballed. In a future version,
I'll remove the ref. to it -- nfotis ]
Available also through their mail server. To obtain help about using this
service, send a message with a "Subject:" line containing only the word
"help" and a null message body to: object-archive-server@decwrl.dec.com.
[For FTP places to get it, see in the relevant place]. There's an OFF
previewer for SGI 4D machines, called off-preview in
godzilla.cgl.rmit.oz.au . There are previewers for xview and sunview,
also on gondwana.
TDDD
----
It's a library of 3D objects with translators to/from OFF, NFF,
Rayshade, Imagine or vort objects.
Edited copy of the announcement follows (from Raytracing News, V4,#3):
New Library of 3D Objects Available via FTP, by Steve Worley
(worley@cup.portal.com)
I have assembled a set of over 150 3D objects in a binary format
called TDDD. These objects range from human figures to airplanes,
from semi-trucks to lampposts. These objects are all freely
distributable, and most have READMEs that describe them.
In order to convert these objects to a human-readable format, a file
with the specification of TDDD is included in the directory with the
objects. There is also a shareware system called TTDDDLIB (officially
on hubcap.clemson.edu) that will convert (ala PBM+) to/from various
object formats : Imagine TTDDD (extension of TDDD?), OFF, NFF,
Rayshade 4.0, or vort. Source included for Amiga/Unix as executables
for the Amiga. Also outputs Framemaker MIF files and isometric views
in Postscript.
P3D
---
From Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center. The P3D uses lisp with slight
extensions to store three-dimensional models. A simple lisp
interpreter is included with the P3D release, so there is no need to
have access to any vendor's lisp to run this software.
The mouse-driven user interfaces for Motif, Open Look, and Silicon
Graphics GL, and the DrawP3D subroutine library for generating P3D
without ever looking at the underlying Lisp.
The P3D software currently supports nine renderers. They are:
Painter - Painter's Algorithm, Dore, Silicon Graphics Inc. GL language,
Generic Phigs, Sun Phigs+, DEC Phigs+, Rayshade, ART ray tracer (from
VORT package) and Pixar RenderMan.
The code is available via anonymous FTP from the machines
ftp.psc.edu, directory pub/p3d, and nic.funet.fi, directory
pub/graphics/programs/p3d.
RenderMan
---------
Pixar's RenderMan is not free - call Pixar for details.
==========================================================================
8. Solids description formats
=============================
a. EEC's ESPRIT project 322 CAD*I (CAD Interfaces) has developed a
neutral file format for transfer of CAD data (curves, surfaces, and
solid models between CAD systems and from CAD to CAA (Computer Aided
Analysis) an CAM (Computer Aided Manufacturing)
b. IGES [v. 5.1 now] tries to define a standard to tranfer solid
models - Brep and CSG. The current standard number is ANSI Y14.26M-1987
For documentation, you might want to contact Nancy Flower at
NCGA Technical Services and Standards, 1-800-225-6242 ext. 325
and the cost is $100.
This standard is not available in electronic format.
c. PDES/STEP : This slowly emerging standard tries to encompass not only
the geometrical information, but also for things like FEM, etc.
The main bodies besides this standard are NIST and DARPA. You can get
more information about PDES by sending mail to nptserver@cme.nist.gov
and putting the line
send index
in the body (NOT the Subject:) area of the message.
The people at Rutherford Appleton Lab. are also working
on STEP tools: they have an EXPRESS compiler and an Exchange file parser,
both available in source form (and for free) for research purposes.
Soon they will also have an EXPRESS-based database system.
For the tools contact Mike Mead, Phone: +44 (0235) 44 6710 (FAX: x 5893),
e-mail: mm@inf.rl.ac.uk or {...!}mcsun!uknet!rlinf!mm or
mm%inf.rl.ac.uk@NSFnet-relay.ac.uk
==========================================================================
End of Part 1 of the Resource Listing
--
Nick (Nikolaos) Fotis National Technical Univ. of Athens, Greece
HOME: 16 Esperidon St., InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr
Halandri, GR - 152 32 UUCP: mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis
Athens, GREECE FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578
| 1comp.graphics
|
With the recent demise of the Chicago Blawkhawks (much to my delight) I
noticed their 8 (?) game playoff losing streak (4 to the Pens last year, and
now 4 to the Blues) and I am wondering what the NHL record for consecutive
losses is, if there even is one...
I'm pretty sure that the Hawks have at least a 9 game losing streak, since
they've had to have lost a series since their last championship (whenever that
was)
Basically, I need something else to rag on my Hawks-fan friend with :)
Mike, the insomniaced
---
***Yes-Rush-Marillion-Emerson, Lake and Palmer-Genesis-Dream Theater***
* Mike Weintraub, aka Jvi on IRC ________.sig Quote du Jour________ *
* mweintr@american.edu |"Life is like a scissors-paper- |*
* jedi@wave.cerf.net | stone game, none of the answers |*
* The American University | is always right, but sometimes |*
* Washington, DC |_each one is"__Neil Peart, Rush___|*
***Go Philadelphia Phillies and Vancouver Canucks (3 down, 13 to go)***
| 10rec.sport.hockey
|
In article <1993Apr12.204033.126645@zeus.calpoly.edu> dfield@flute.calpoly.edu (InfoSpunj (Dan Field)) writes:
>I've been invited to spend a couple weeks this summer rafting down the
>Mississippi. My journey partners want to live off of river water and
>catfish along the route. Should I have any concerns about pollution or
>health risks in doing this?
You'd have to purify the river water first. I'm not sure how practical
that is with the Mississippi. You'd better check with health agencies
along the way to see if there are toxic chemicals in the river. If
it is just microorganisms, those can be filtered or killed, but you
may need activated charcoal or other means to purify from chemicals.
Better be same than sorry. Obviously, drinking the river without
processing it is likely to make you sick from bacteria and parasites.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks N3JXP | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 13sci.med
|
In article <sfpPIsK00WB64HPO5e@andrew.cmu.edu>, Catherine Barbara Saum <cs20+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> While "passngering" on my fiance's Bandit, my hip-pack rubbed against the tail
> and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches. Is there a way to get
> rid of these? Buff them out? Wax them out? help!
Has he realised yet....or are you hoping to fix it before he does ?
If you're planning to use T-Cut...BE CAREFUL. Sunlight fades paint and T-Cut removes the surface layer, so if its a older bike or very sunny where
you live then the colour of the T-cut panel wont match the rest of the bike.
-Bob
------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Morley PIPEX (Public IP EXchange)
DoD #549 216 Cambridge Science Park
Ogrite Milton Road
CBR1000FL Cambridge, CB4 4WA
Ely & District MCC England
------------------------------------------------------------------
| 8rec.motorcycles
|
In article <gp2011-200493131949@m248-68.bgsu.edu>, gp2011@andy.bgsu.edu (George Pavlic) writes:
>
> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Who's the mindscheme(?) behind this one -- Ted
> Simmons? As the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I'm 230
> miles from home (during the school year) and will never be able to pick up
> DVE. At least now I can sort of make out what Mike and Steigy say through
> all the static on KDKA. This just may be enough reason for me to transfer
> to Duquesne and live at home. Who's going to announce on DVE anyway?
> Paulson and Krenn? (Just kidding.)
>
> George
Don't kid around... They just might listen.
Kevin L. Stamber
Purdue University
waiting to hear 'Free Bird' as the new Penguins theme
| 10rec.sport.hockey
|
karr@cs.cornell.edu (David Karr) wrote:
>
> mjs@sys.uea.ac.uk (Mike Sixsmith) writes:
> >
> >Did anyone see the TV ad for the new BMW boxer on U.K. television
> >at the weekend??
>
> Not me--since I have no reception and no cable, I'm not likely to see
> any ads. And if I did they'd most likely be have been taped in the US
> anyway.
Yeh. Be tough to pick up UK Telly in your situation:-}
No signs of Type 259 ads in TV in the states yet, but I don't watch much,
so I'm not in a real position to comment.
BUT! I got my invite to the dealer introduction "On the deck out back".
RSVP is on the way!!!!!!
tom coradeschi <+> tcora@pica.army.mil
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
--gene spafford, 1992
| 8rec.motorcycles
|
In article <1qt8pt$ge4@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider) writes...
>In article <93106.21394634AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
>|In article <2001.150.uupcb@yob.sccsi.com>, jim.wray@yob.sccsi.com (Jim Wray)
>|says:
>|>
>|> Bill Vojak:
Hey! If you can get it together, I'm all for it! I too am one of the poor
(a college student) Get a bank account set aside, and set aside a big ass
data base and you will get my contribution. I'm setting aside as of now 10$
a month. Not a slew of cash to be sure, but it's the best I can do. Let me
know what you guys come up with. I'm sure as hell not going anywhere.
E-Mail to DJH4484@RIGEL.TAMU.EDU
Death to Tyrants!
Kane
Better ideas anyone? Haven't heard 'em yet!
| 16talk.politics.guns
|
kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>I think that you are confusing the words "objective" and "inherent."
>>And objective system is simply one in which an outside observer who,
>>given the postulates of the system, could perfectly judge any situation
>>or action as consistent with the system (right) or not (wrong). You seem
>>to be objecting because the goals of the system are not inherent. That is,
>>you seem to want to define an objective system as one in which the
>>postulates themselves could be determined by some outside observer.
>>I don't think that this is a good definition of an objective system.
>Then you need to learn English.
Really>`?
>Gravity is an objective system. Anybody can learn what it is, and perform
>experiments. They will get the same results as every other person who
>has performed those experiments.
No, gravity is an inherent system. You don't need any excess information
other than observations to determine anything. It is possible to objectively
determine someone's guilt or innocence within an non-inherent system.
I agree that morality is not necessarily inherent (unless you state that
everything we do has an evolutionary basis), but this does not mean that
it cannot be objective in theory.
>This "natural morality" is not an objective system, as evidenced by
>your comments about lions, and mine.
Perhaps it can be objective, but not inherent. Anyway, as I noted before,
the practices related to mating rituals, etc. among the animals are likely
the only ones to be considered "immoral" under the previous "definitions"
of the natural law. Therefore, some revisions are in order, since the
class of activities surrounding mating seem to pose some general problems.
>>And in fact, the only way that the postulates could be determined by an
>>outsider would be if there were some sort of higher truth, like some
>>sort of god or something. But, I do not think that a god is necessary
>>for an objective system, while it seems that you do.
>What are you trying to say here?
It seens that you are objecting to the notion of an objective system
because perhaps you think that it would imply inherence, which would
necessitate some sort of grand design?
>>No, I have classified behavior of most animals as in line with a
>>moral system. It is certainly possible for animals to commit acts
>>which are outside of their rules of ethics, but they don't seem to
>>do so very often. Perhaps they are not intelligent enough to be
>>immoral.
>And perhaps it's because you have yet to define a "moral" system.
I think I have. It is a code of ethics which basically defines undesired
behaviors, etc. An immoral behavior could be unwanted, unproductive,
or destructive, etc., depending on the goal of the system (that is,
immoral to what end?).
keith
| 0alt.atheism
|
4comp.sys.mac.hardware
|
|
[DISCLAIMER: Throughout this post, there are statements and questions which
could easily be interpreted as being sarcastic. They are not. I have written
this reply in the most even-handed manner that I can, with no emotions boiling
to the surface as it was written. Please accept this as a serious attempt to
foster dialog and rest assurred that I make every attempt to make fun of no
one, except myself ;-)]
gsu0033@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Eric Molas) writes:
>Firstly, I am an atheist. I am not posting here as an immature flame
>start, but rather to express an opinion to my intended audience.
[...]
>1) The human being is an _animal_ who has, due to his/her advanced
>mental facilities, developed religious as a satisfiable solution to
>explain the unexplainable. [...]
Hmmm. There are other animals on this planet with advanced
mental facilities which have not developed "religion" as a
satisfactory explaination for the unexplained. Why is this so?
Further, it appears that only humans have a "need" to explain the
unexplained. Why is this so? The other animals on this planet,
including those with advanced mental facilities, seem perfectly
content in their ignorance.
I'd like to point out that your presuppositions scream out at me
from your unsupported statement. They are: 1) humans are animal
*only*; 2) religion exists as a crutch so that the unexplained need
not be researched; 3) religion was "made up" by humans to address a
perceived need; 4) the biological aspect of humans is deified (that
is, all aspects of human life can be categorized in a hierarchical
structure with biology at the apex).
Needless to say, I disagree with your strong opinion #1 and the
underlying presuppositions.
>Christianity is an infectious cult. The reasons it flourishes are
>because 1) it gives people without hope or driven purpose in life
>a safety blanked to hide behind. "Oh wow..all i have to do is
>follow this christian moral standard and I get eternal happiness."
>For all of you "found jeezus" , how many of you were "on the brink?"
I disagree that Christianity is "an infectious cult". It has
certainly shown itself to be persistent as a belief system, in
spite of various persecutions throughout the past two millenia.
That it continues to persevere does not demonstrate that it is
"infectious" in a derrogatory sense; it may be that it provides
a workable system for its adherents (and I would argue that this
is the case).
I disagree that Christianity is "a safety blanket" which supplants
hope and purpose. Rather, it points an individual to the one
Source of hope and purpose. There is nothing hidden about a
Christian's source for hope and purpose. Of what usefulness to
you is the distinction between internally motivated hope and purpose
and externally given hope and purpose? Is the (apparent) loss of
control over one's own life the problem or is it something else?
Finally, one does not appropriate "eternal happiness" by following
Christian moral standards. Indeed, the sole reason for the existance
of Christianity is *because* standards are inadequate to save people
from their imperfections. Moral standards are merely guides to the
Christian; the real power to moral living is given to the Christian
in the Person of God's Spirit.
Heaven is one of two final states that
Christian doctrine postulates. However, Christians are generally
not motivated to live according to Christian moral standards by this
promised future reward; rather, they are motivated by the perceived
benefits to them in the here-and-now.
>but i digress... The other reason christianity flourishes is its
>infectious nature. A best friend of mine breifly entered a christian
>group and within months, they set ministry guidelines for him which
>basicaly said this -->Priority #1 Spread the Word.
Many Christian organizations are concerned with evangelism as a
priority, and rightly so (for it was Jesus Himself who gave this
as a priority for His followers). However, it is not the penultimate
priority as evangelism is normally understood (i.e. preach the word,
convert at nearly any cost, repeat with new convert ad infinitum).
Rather, such evangelism is generally best done through respecting
the opinions of others while *demonstrating* the very real benefits
of a Christian lifestyle. This demonstration should be so powerful
that it compels the non-Christian to seek out the Christian to ask
"Why?" Needless to say, such a demonstration is not easily accom-
plished (it takes a radical committment to the person of Jesus), it
does not happen quickly (so perseverance on the part of the Christian
is required), and it cannot occur where no personal bonds of
friendship exist (it is ineffective with strangers who cannot
evaluate the demonstration over time, and it is easy to alienate or
harm others if the sole purpose of being a "friend" is to gain a
conversion).
As a long-time Christian (nearly 20 years), I view with some skep-
ticism *all* evangelism programs which incorporate a "hurry-up"
attitude. Pressured conversions may ultimately be worse than no
conversion at all (because the pressured convert realizes s/he was
coerced and disavows Christianity when they would have been open
to it in the future had they not been taken advantage of now).
The Bible states that it is the very Spirit of God which brings
conviction of wrong-doing to people. I am content to do my part
(witness) and let the Spirit do the rest.
>We are _just_ animals. We need sleep, food, and we reproduce. And we
>die.
We are far more than animals. We sleep, eat, reproduce, and die
just as other animals do - true. But, we are also capable of more
than this. If your personal vision of humanity (or of yourself) is
so limited, I can only hope and pray ;-) that you will someday find
a more expansive view.
(For reflection, what animals have the wide variety of performing
arts that humans do? How is it that humans can learn the language
of other humans (or animals) but that other animals cannot do so?
How is it that humans can organize themselves in various social
structures whereas other animals have only one structure?)
>Religion (especially Christianity) is nothing more than a DRUG.
Blatant assertion. Christianity is not physically addictive.
Christianity is not psychologically addictive. Christianity is not
a *thing* which one snorts/ingests/shoots-up; it is a relationship
with a living being. You might as validly characterize any close-
knit relationship with this appelation.
>Some people use drugs as an escape from reality. Christians inject
>themselves with jeezus and live with that high.
There are "Jesus freaks" who let the emotional aspects of worship
and Christian living gain (and retain) the upper hand. Even so,
this does not by itself invalidate the foundation from which these
things flow.
>It pities me how many millions of lives have been lost in religious
>wars, of which Christianity has had no small part.
Guilty by association? That "christianity" which forces itself
upon another is not Christianity at all.
>When Christians see a "non-believer", they say that person is blind
>to the truth, but they cannot realize that it is _they_ who live
>with this mask of fakeness each day. Jesus was just prophet #37696
>who happened to have a large influence because at that time the Romans
>were (circa 69ad) dispersing the Jewish population and communities
>needed some sort of cohesive element to keep them strong in that time
>of dire need.
You appear to have an amazing certainty about what really happened
2000 years ago. How did you come by it?
I cannot accept your conclusion that Jesus' influence was a sole
result of the Roman sack of Jerusalem in 70AD. He was 30+ years
gone by this time. It strains the bounds of credulity to assert
that nothing about Jesus' life was noteworthy _until_ the sack.
>I must go. These are but a few of my thoughts on Christianity.
Christianity is having a relationship with Jesus Christ Himself.
What do you know of Him?
We read the world wrong | Phil Buckland
and say that it deceives us. | psb@eece.ksu.edu
Tagore, from Stray Birds | psb@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
| 15soc.religion.christian
|
In article <bskendigC5qyJ2.GEw@netcom.com> bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice) writes:
>>One way or another -- so much for patience. Too bad you couldn't just
>>wait. Was the prospect of God's Message just too much to take?
>So you believe that David Koresh really is Jesus Christ?
Well lets see - a long haired nut case with sexual hangups surrounded
by a lot of gulible losers without a brain between them with a miserable
and meaningless death to boot
Sounds like he fits the bill to me!
Joseph 'Remember David Koresh fried for you' Askew
--
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.
| 19talk.religion.misc
|
How do you beat the Penguins?
Crash the team plane.
Ryan
| 10rec.sport.hockey
|
>B(--> Stanley Cup Champion: Vancouver Canucks
>
>Sorry, Pittsburgh in a walk.
>
>- Jack
First of all, the Penguins WILL win the cup again. Who is going to stop them?
Definitely not the Canucks!
My predictions:
Patrick Division winner: Pittsburgh
Adams Division winner: Quebec or Montreal
Norris Division winner: Detroit
Smythe Division winner: Winnipeg
Wales conference champ: Pittsburgh
Campbell Conference champ: Detroit
Stanley Cup Champions(again): Pittsburgh
Canucks suck. They'll lose in the first round, compliments of Winnipeg
and Teemu Selanne.
The Pens are almost unstoppable with Mario Lemieux.
| 10rec.sport.hockey
|
In article <1483500366@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>There are basically three alternatives for Gaza:
What is this "Gaza"? Are you purposely separating it from the "West Bank"?
If so, why separate the people and territories? If not, why are you just
addressing "Gaza" here?
>
>1. To throw the Jews to the sea. that is basically to make them leave
> the Middle-East and go back to where they came from (russia, Europe,
> USA, etc)
By all means, continue to list the "etc." The reason I particularly
bring this up here is that there are **many** from middle eastern
and west asian countries. That fact in itself **adds** an important
element to any consideration of "resolution" of the Arab-Israel
conflict.
>2. To throw the Gazans into the sea, in accordance with Yitzhak Rabin's
> wish and that of many Zionists.
You explained what "sea" meant with regard to the Israelis/jews,
please do so in this case.
>3. For Israelis and Palestinians to come to an honorable and fair (I
> don't attempt to say just) settlement,
"Just"? You better not ask for that because that would mean North
American tribes would be returned their lands, the pre-Islamic tribes
would take back their lands from the Islamic invaders, the Saxons get
to kick the Normans out of the UK, the central and south american
tribes get to kick the spanish descendents out of thier lands.....
And, once we have returned the land to those who last possessed it,
we have to find out from whom **they** stole it. At some point, *every*
culture stole the land they are on from previous occupants.
> which would allow each person to live in dignity in his country in
> freedom and equality.
But wait! Now you refer to "Palestinians", so what happened to "Gaza"?
>
>I personnaly opt for the third alternative. How about you folks ?
As we both know, most people would choose the third alternative. And,
since you have done so in the past, perhaps you would initiate things by
presenting your vision of "resolution". In doing so, however, the worries
(not paranioas, *worries*) and resonable expectations **of both**
parties should be considered.
>
>Elias
>
--
Tim Clock Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI tel#: 714,8565361 Department of Politics and Society
fax#: 714,8568441 University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446 Irvine, CA 92717
| 17talk.politics.mideast
|
Roger,
SHUT UP.
Thank you.
--
GO SKINS! ||"Now for the next question... Does emotional music have quite
GO BRAVES! || an effect on you?" - Mike Patton, Faith No More
GO HORNETS! ||
GO CAPITALS! ||Mike Friedman (Hrivnak fan!) Internet: gtd597a@prism.gatech.edu
| 10rec.sport.hockey
|
In article <1993Apr20.103345.2651@nuscc.nus.sg> cmtan@iss.nus.sg (Tan Chade Meng - dan) writes:
>From: cmtan@iss.nus.sg (Tan Chade Meng - dan)
>Subject: Re: You will all go to hell.
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 10:33:45 GMT
>In article <93106.155002JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu>
>writes:
>> YOU BLASHEPHEMERS!!! YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN
>> GOD!!!! BE PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!
>
>Arrgg!! *Another* one of those?!
>Another letter to the Big Guy:
>
>Dear God,
>
>Please take them back to Heaven & leave us rational, intelligent
>people alone.
>
>Love,
>Meng
>
>
>--
>
>The UnEnlightened One
>------------------+--------------------------------------------------------
> |
>Tan Chade Meng | There is light at the end of the tunnel ......
>Singapore |
>cmtan@iss.nus.sg | It's an on-coming train.
> |
>------------------+--------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Meng,
I have a better prayer:
Dear God,
Please save the world from the likes of these!!!
Tammy
| 0alt.atheism
|
In article <CMM.0.90.2.735315429.thomasp@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no> thomasp@ifi.uio.no (Thomas Parsli) writes:
:
:
: 1. Make a new Newsgroup called talk.politics.guns.PARANOID or
: talk.politics.guns.THEY'R.HERE.TO.TAKE.ME.AWAY
:
: 2. Move all postings about waco and burn to (guess where)..
:
: 3. Stop posting #### on this newsgroup
;
: We are all SO glad you're trying to save us from the evil
: goverment, but would you mail this #### in regular mail to
: let's say 1000 people ????
:
:
: Thomas Parsli
And everybody who talked about the evil arising in Europe was labeled
reactionary in the late 1930's... after all, we could negotiate with Hitler and
trust him to keep his end of the bargain... at least that's what Stalin and
Chamberlin thought... I guess they forgot to teach you about your country being
overrun by the Germans in WWII, 'eh Thomas? And I'm sorry you consider outrage
at government excesses to be ####... Everytime the Israelis conduct a mass
operation against a terrorist group that is actively killing their citizens and
soldiers, the world gets indignant, but it's ok for the US to assault it's own
citizens who were a religous minority and accused of sexual deviation and
hoarding weapons... I find it real ironic this happened the same day Al Gore
arrived in Poland to recognize the sacrifices made in the Warsaw Ghetto where
the same 'justifications' were raised for an armed assault by black-clad troops
with armor support...
--
********************************************************************************
James S. Cochrane * When in danger, or in doubt, run in * This space
gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu * circles, scream and shout. * for rent
********************************************************************************
| 16talk.politics.guns
|
kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>>I don't think so. Although some forms of execution are painful (the electric
>>chair looks particularly so), I think the pain is relatively short-lived.
>>Drawing and quartering, on the other hand, looks very painful, and the
>>victim wouldn't die right away (he'd bleed to death, I'd imagine).
>Ah, so a cruel punishment is not just if it is painful, as you
>origionally stated. It is about long term pain, eg: non short-lived.
>Why this sudden chance in your stance?
I don't think I've changed my stance at all. My original stance was that
a painless execution was not a cruel one. I didn't say what would be
considered cruel, only that a painless death wasn't. Now, cruelty must
involve some sort of suffering, I believe. I don't think someone that gets
shot in the head or electrocuted really suffers very much. Even a hanging
probably produces one sharp instance of pain, but it's over so quickly...
>Hmmmmm?
Pardon?
>Could it be that a counter example has been made, which renders your
>previous stance null and void? Why don't you admit that your previous stance
>is incorrect? Or, if you somehow managed to slip up, and misstated your
>origional stance, why not admit it?
No. Well, again I stated that a painless death isn't cruel, but I don't
think I stated that all painful executions *are* cruel. I think that some
are cruel, depending on the nature and duration of the pain.
>By the way, how long is too long?
Anything more than an instant, I guess. Any death by suffocation
asphyxiation, or blood loss would be cruel, I think (this includes the
gas chamber, and drawing and quartering). I'd say that any pain that
lasts, say, over twenty seconds or so would be too long (but this may
be an arbitrary cutoff, I suppose).
keith
| 0alt.atheism
|
In article <1993Apr15.190132.29787@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>, seth@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (peter.r.clark..jr) writes:
> So in other words, if Roussel shuts out the Sharks and Soderstrom shuts out
> the Penguins, that's immaterial because it was the coaches decision? Come on,
> Joe, think about what you're saying! Who they played is VERY significant.
> Why they played them is what's irrelevent. A low GAA against good teams
> is better than a low GAA against bad teams in the context of comparing two
> goaltenders. A low GAA is better then a higher GAA. A low GAA against good
> teams is much, much better than a higher GAA against bad teams in the context
> of comparing two goaltenders.
Let's start over. I'm not arguing about who is the better goaltender. I'd
take Soderstrom right now. What I am saying is that Roussel can be a #1
netminder. The GAA difference is less than half a goal per game (less than
that after last night), their save percentages are close, and their records
are similar. And with that, I just don't see how you can label Roussel as
the most disappointing player on the Flyers this season.
You say Soderstrom played against better competition. That may very well
be, but there is no way of knowing how Roussel would have performed in
those games. Besides, against the better scoring teams like Pittsburgh,
the defense is more keyed up than they are against San Jose.
> The same
> for Roussel in the Ranger game. Two real scoring chances, one he made a
> great play, the other he was saved by a mistake from the other player. If
> you were judging Roussel on that game alone, you have very little to go by.
But I'm not just judging Roussel on that game alone. I've seen him play
for the past two seasons in Philly and before that in Hershey. It's just
my opinion, but I think he's got what it takes. Of course, I thought that
about Mark LaForest, too. But I never did about Wendell Young. So I'm
batting .500 in judging Hershey talent since the Hextall-era.
As for the Rangers game, you can say he was saved by a mistake by the
offensive player if you like. But Rou had his leg in position to make the
save. If he didn't, it wouldn't have mattered if the Rangers player didn't
get the puck up or not. It would have been a goal. On a breakaway that's
what the goalie wants to do, take away as much as possible and force the
shooter to beat him.
> But if you were to look at the 0-0 tie against the Habs, you saw a goalie
> stand on his head to get that shutout. THAT was a #1 goalie in action. Roussel
> doesn't have a game like that in him.
I seem to remember Roussel doing an excellent job against Pittsurgh on
opening night to give the Flyers a tie against the two-time defending
champs. And not to take anything away from Soderstrom because he was
senational in that game agains the Habs. But you can't tell me that a
Montreal player had an open net to shoot at some point during that game
and just flat out missed it. Mistakes, both on offense and defense are
part of the game. Or there'd never be shutouts.
Anyway, I'm happy the Flyers have both Soderstrom and Roussel and
I'm not going to argue about it anymore. Besides, with the current
7-game winning streak and expectations soaring for next year, I
don't want to piss you off to the point that you don't sell me any
tickets next season:-).
\ \
Joe Dakes \/\
AT&T Microelectronics \/\
555 Union Boulevard \ \
Allentown, PA 18103 LET'S GO FLYERS!
alux1!jmd \ \
jmd@aluxpo.att.com \ \__________
\____/_//__/
| 10rec.sport.hockey
|
Hmm, followup on my own posting... Well, who cares.
First let me try to work out the facts that we get to know about the
Clipper-Chip, from what Hellman and Denning were able to tell us:
The chip itself is not confined to (digital) telephony, but performs
general encryption in a symmetric manner. The chip supports CFB OFB
ECB (and whatever the fourth mode of operation for DES is), the algorithm
consists of 32 rounds of *whatever*, and takes 80-Bit keys. Input data
seems to be 64 Bit? Yes.
So if two people want secure communication (whatever that means when
Clipper is involved) they have first to agree on ONE secret key.
(Or is it one key per direction ?)
They can exchange this key via DH-schemes or however.
Somehow the two feed their so won secret key into the Clipper-chip
which is now ready to work.
The clipper chip carries an unique Serial-Number (30 Bit's), and 160 Key-Bits.
These 160 key-bits seem to have been gained by encrypting the serial-number
with 160 seed-bits. (The seed-bits seem not to be stored in the chip)
At beginning of communication (and perhaps at certain invtervals whithin??)
before sending the fist real 64-bit output of the first encryption the Clipper
chip put's out packets (I guess 3) which represent the serial number,
and the session key. This might look like
X{ E[K; chipkeyK1+K2], serial number}
where X is a transformation of these 3? Packets involving a family-key.
This family(sp?)-key is equal for ALL chips. (X might be a simple XOR ???)
After that, the (digital?) phone-call can be done as usual, every packet
being encrypted and decrypted by Clipper.
Denning describes how K1 and K2 shall be generated, using a seed of 160
Bit's.
Now, leaving alone politics, which does not concern me as much as you, not
being an American Citicien(tm) [ :-) ] , there are some weak points in this
scheme, which might be exploited by several parties.
As far as I know about the generation of K1,K2 ; S1 and S2 look like the
obvious backdoor. They could be used to generate the chip-keys by knowing
the serial-number (and also the family-key) of the chip. I really can't
imagine why these seeds would be needed otherwise, as true random-sources
for the generation of the K1,K2 can be bought for not to much money.
Then, the escrows. Each of them will get 80 bit of a 160-Bit key. Security
could (as little as existant) be maximized by giving them 160-bits
each, which have to be xored together to give the K1,K2. Now let's simply
assume the escrows are trustworthy, and can't be fooled by criminals or
law enforchemnt agencies. (And there will be no quarrel between escrows
and l.e.a which would hinder the l.e.a in doing their duties, and so on
and so on) Once the keys are surrendered, the corresponding
chip is compromised forever. Not very clever, IMHO [ :-)) ].
How about sending in the encrypted session-keys for each phone-call that
the police (or whoever) want's to listen to? Escrows could then simply decode
this session-key and send it back to police. (And would naturally not do this
after the warrant has expired...) This would be a better technical solution,
but I guess politics will not work that way.
Apparently (as Miss Dennings stated) the only one performing actually decodes
of intercepted messages shall be the FBI. Great. So local guys can not inter-
cept (understand) your traffic anymore. Does this mean that the FBI monopolizes
the right to do legal wiretaps ? (How is law over there, I have no idea who
is allowed to tap, and who not) This certainly means that watched communi-
cations will be routed automatically from the service-providing company
to the FBI, if the communicaiton is a watched one. And this means as far
as I understand it that the family-key has to be known by each switching-
company, and those providing cellular-phone servies etcetc. So the family-key
will not be very secret, and thus serial-numbers of calls will be readable
by anybody who cares. I _like_ traffic-analysis!
What do you guess, what happens, if you use the chip in ECB mode, and the
first few packets of the chip are somehow lost or garbled? So the session
key would not be actually broadcasted over the line? Hmmm. Shouldn't be so
difficult to do *that* :^)
And now a last point, for the other side. After all I have read and heard about
Clipper (not the programming language for dBase, is it ? [:-)]) it seems
to have many advantages, which shold not be overseen!
Now an afterthought to your rights. Please note that I have no idea what I am
talking about!!!
From: grady@netcom.com (1016/2EF221)
> Amendment 1
>
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
>or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
>petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
If this text is actually in your Bill of Rights, who can overrule this ?
But: 'Freedom of speech' is not 'Secrecy of speech'
Maybe you need to extend your Amendment #4 to cover information and
communication too ?
I am not very sure in what position your government actually is *legally*
when it tries to ban cryptography (and arms) Amendment say you may have them,
but not under what conditions. Hmm, tricky situation :-(
Actually it will make not much sense to discuss that topic in sci.crypt...
Discussion of technical details and vulnerabilites of the system are highly
suggested and appreciated :-)
Friendly greetings,
Germano Caronni
DISCLAIMER: Everything in here is derived from things I heard and read from
other persons, so everything could be wrong. All opinions and thoughts in here
are mine, and subject to change without further notification. No warranty,
neither implicit not explicit etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam.
p.s. Please don't ask me about political opinions, as I might not bother to re-
ply. (For further information read the last line of P. Metzgers signature)
--
Instruments register only through things they're designed to register.
Space still contains infinite unknowns.
PGP-Key-ID:341027
Germano Caronni caronni@nessie.cs.id.ethz.ch FD560CCF586F3DA747EA3C94DD01720F
| 11sci.crypt
|
In article <C63tEF.63C@cs.dal.ca>, reiniger@ug.cs.dal.ca (Darren Reiniger) says:
>
> I'd like to echo these sentiments. This is the worst coverage I can
> ever remember seeing on CBC. As soon as the game ends, I can count to 30,
> and by that time, they've signed off the air. No post game interviews,
> no updating of late scores, nothin'. TSN is really putting CBC to
> shame. I only hope the later round coverage improves, I mean, who
> really wants to see CBC PrimeTime News instead of hockey.
>
> My $.02,
> Darren
This was a concession to Mansbridge and CBC News, they argued that if you're
going to play havoc with the schedule, you should at least make sure that
Prime Time is aired as soon as possible. News got a commitment that the
post-game show would be scrapped and that the network would go to PTN within
one minute or so of the game ending.
As for the earlier comments about CBC being "Ontariocentric" frankly
the no doubleheader decison goes both ways, people in the West cant see
the Leafs and people in Central Canada can't see the Jets game. The
reason for the decision was CBC's feeling they couldn't sell advertising
for six hours of hockey in one night.
As for who wants to see news over hockey, a lot of people. CBC always gets
plenty of complaints about juggling the news schedule.
>
>--
> Darren Reiniger reiniger@ug.cs.dal.ca || arishem@ac.dal.ca
> Centre For Marine Geology, Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
>| People who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves
>|
>| where it came from in the first place.
>|
| 10rec.sport.hockey
|
bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles) writes:
>I wish them luck in figuring out who "I" am based on that information.
>(They can probably figure out I'm liberal, with a technical degree
>but humanistic interests, from a common thread throughout my posts.
>But that describes a fair portion of the users of Internet).
Sounds like you are the brother of sibble to me. <hey that wasn't
nice> {Oh shut up, I'm posting now} [Both of you pipe down, or I
will take control of the arms and sock you in the mouth]
| 11sci.crypt
|
jebg9667@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Johann E. Beda) writes:
>Anyone have a price quote/vendor for the vx to centris 650 upgrade?
>I've been quoted a price of $2401 till August 15th after which it will
>cost $2732. This of course doesn't include the trade-in rebate of
>$1300 for the vx board. Thus for $1101 one gets a Centris 650, 8 meg
>onboard with both the FPU and Ethernet. Anyone else have any info?
>This price is from the University of Illinois micro-order center, are
>there any other vendors who offer similar prices?
Falcon Microsystems of Landover MD, the sole Apple-authorized
reseller to the federal government, has similar "open market" prices.
The upgrade is too new to be on General Services Adminsitration schedule
yet.
Joe Gurman
--
J.B. Gurman / Solar Physics Branch / NASA Goddard Space Flight Center /
Greenbelt MD 20771 USA / gurman@uvsp.gsfc.nasa.gov
| Federal employees are prohibited from holding opinions under the Hatch Act.|
| Therefore, any opinions expressed herein are somebody else's. |
| 4comp.sys.mac.hardware
|
cheek.
| 7rec.autos
|
Forsale:
Nintendo control Deck with two controllers and gun, one controller has
grips attached.
the NES will only connect to a composite monitor or TV with audio and
video RCA Input jacks and needs some repairs.
25$ or best offer
games for sale
15$ Tecmo Baseball
15$ Techmo Bowl
15$ Double Dribble
15$ Wayne Gretzky Hockey
15$ Golf
10$ Super Mario/Duck Hunt
10$ Toobin'
10$ Spelunker
25$ Tecmo Super Bowl
============
130$ total, I'll give all of them to you for 100$ or best offer and throw
in the control deck...
I'll also accept the best offer for each of the games
the oldest of these is two years old, most of them are less than a year old.
--
-Tom
<<<>>>Warning, signature under construction, ENTER at your own RISC<<<>>>
| 6misc.forsale
|
I purchased an LCIII recently and had heard a bit about a re-work of the
logic board. I opened mine up and found the same re-work, with a small
chip glued to the board and a couple of green wires running from it to two
other chips. I'd like to know more about it. Could anyone with any or all of
the following information please post it? Thanks a bunch.
1. What does the re-work accomplish (i.e., what does it fix)?
2. What are the technical details of the re-work? (I'm looking for
things such as the purpose of the chips with the new wires connected,
and the pin-outs for those chips.)
3. Is a board with the re-work any different functionally from one without?
4. Could the re-worked boards be incompatible with future releases of
the operating system?
and, finally,
5. Should I even be concerned about any of this?
Keith Folsom
folsom@cup.portal.com
| 4comp.sys.mac.hardware
|
In article <1993Apr22.004728.6736@mtu.edu> cmwolf@mtu.edu (Engineer by Day - Asleep by Night) writes:
>Dave Martindale (dave@imax.imax.com) wrote:
>: They require two separate grounds. One ground goes to the ground pin
>: of the outlet, and the other ground wire is connected to the outlet's
>: mounting tabs (and thus grounds the box and faceplate screw and metal
>: faceplate, if any).
>
>I thought the ground WAS connected to the metal frame on the socket.
>
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Christopher Wolf Electrical Engineer cmwolf@mtu.edu
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Remember, even if you win the Rat Race - You're still a rat.
Not in isolated ground recepticles (usually an unusual color, such as orange
or yellow) often used in low noise, low leakage applications, as mentioned
earlier in the thread.
Richard Dell
| 12sci.electronics
|
Your "lite" posting for the day, from rec.humor.funny:
In article <S539.2adf@looking.on.ca>, bellas@tti.com (Pete Bellas) writes:
>
> There is a new Ice Cream Flavor inspired by the incident at Waco.
>
> It's called Mount Caramel, it's full of nuts but you can't get it out
> of the carton.
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet...
| 16talk.politics.guns
|
In article <1qunlgINNfdr@titan.ucs.umass.edu> quilty@titan.ucs.umass.edu (Lulu of the lotus-eaters) writes:
-> > I think he's talking about Kinsey who came up with the 10%
-> >statistic used heavily by gay groups to push their political agenda.
-> >Kinsey's work has often been accused of lacking a strong scientific
-> >backbone.
->
-> I really must defend my man Alfred. Not that this poster was really
-> to be taken seriously, since the deletiae are a phobe's rants. But
-> still, some who aren't such phobes mistakenly criticize my man.
You really need to be able to support yourself without
insults. The article you're calling rants actually had absolutely
none of my opinions and was only a series of factual statements.
--
Jason C. Austin
j.c.austin@larc.nasa.gov
| 18talk.politics.misc
|
In article <1qn252INNot4@news.aero.org> helfman@aero.org (Robert S. Helfman) writes:
>In article <9304161803.AA23713@inet-gw-2.pa.dec.com> blh@uiboise.idbsu.edu (Broward L. Horne) writes:
>>
>> If you look through this newsgroup, you should be
>> able to find Clinton's proposed "Wiretapping" Initiative
> ^^^^^^^^^
>> for our computer networks and telephone systems.
>>
>> This 'initiative" has been up before Congress for at least
>> the past 6 months, in the guise of the "FBI Wiretapping"
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> bill.
>
>What kind of brainless clod posted the above garbage? Would they be
>so kind as to explain how this is "Clinton's" initiative, when it
>has been before Congress for "at least the past 6 months"?
It is Clinton's initiative now. He is pushing it hard
Aren't the liberals supposed to be concerned about privacy
rights?
If you want to know more about the wiretapping initiative,
read "1984" - it's in there, installed in every bedroom.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 18talk.politics.misc
|
In article <lt88p0INN2ql@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden) writes:
>1. So, did the Turks kill the Armenians?
So, did the Jews kill the Germans?
You even make Armenians laugh.
"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of
the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at
least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The
memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and
eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
(Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)
>2. Or was it the Armenians who massacred the Turks?
Yes. To be exact, Armenians slaughtered 2.5 million Muslim people between
1914 and 1920.
Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman
Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press,
New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.
Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
1967, p. 13.
Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.
"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the
Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character
notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian
Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the
southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia."
(See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of
Transcaucasia).
In 1920, '0' percent Turk.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS
1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975
2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951
3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot,
Edward & Arnold, London, 1900
4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972
5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944
6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925
7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
The Century Co., New York, London, 1924
8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951
9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
Melbourne, 1977
10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922
11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
Macmillan & Co., London, 1915
12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928
13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925
14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952
15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17
(Spring 1964)
16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967
17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923
18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
Cambridge, 1953
19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
H. Fertig, New York, 1966
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
Beirut, 1963
21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965
22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard
Jaeschke
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri:
Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S.,
Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian
Question in Turkey")
2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.
3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.
4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970.
T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:
a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari
T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik
a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar
British Archives:
a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files
India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.
a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031
French Archives
Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.
a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.
Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others
A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)
Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.
Russia
Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).
Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
| 17talk.politics.mideast
|
In article <mssC5y5u0.4Dn@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>Actually, I think the large-scale sample size is part of the problem.
>It seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball
>in regard to BA vs. Clutch BA deviation we would get some kind of
>bell curve. (The X-axis being the +/- deviation in clutch hitting
>vs. non-clutch; the Y-axis being the number of players.) Certainly
>there would be *some* players on the extreme ends of the bell.
Right. Most definitely.
>My *supposition* is that if we were to find the SAME players
>consistently (year after year) at one end of the bell or the other,
>then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about
>*those* players (as opposed to all baseball players).
This may be the root of the confusion...
Please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind. Note
that I am *not* (yet) saying that it has anything to do with the
question at hand.
Suppose we have a simplified Lotto game. You pick a number from 1-10
and win if that number is drawn. Suppose we have a large population
of people who play this game every week.
In the first year of the game, approximately 1/4 of the population
will win 7 or more times.
In the second year of the game, 1/4 of those 7-time winners will again
be 7-time winners.
In the third year of the game, 1/4 of those who won 7 or more times in
each of the first two years will win 7 again.
Suppose I started with 1024 people in my population. After three
years, I have 32 people who have consistently, in each of the last
three years, won 140% or more the number of times expected.
Do we expect them to be big winners in the fourth year of the game?
No. Because we know there is no skill involved. Nothing about these
"consistent winners" can influence their chances of winning. But
suppose we *don't* know whether or not there is a chance that skill
might be involved. Perhaps some of the people in our population are
psychic, or something. How would we test this hypothesis?
We can look for correlations in the population. Now most of the
population will show zero correlation. But our psychics should show a
high positive correlation (even if they aren't very good psychics,
they should still manage to win 7 or more times most years). Net
result? A small positive correlation over the entire population.
>This probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement I am having
>with others on this topic. Must any conclusion based on statistical
>history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before
>it has any validity? Is it impossible (or irrational) to apply
>statistical analysis to selected components of the data base?
Well, zero correlation is zero correlation. You mention that Sabo has
hit poorly in the clutch over the last 3(?) years. But if we look at
the past, we find that clutch patterns are just as likely to reverse
as they are to remain consistent. The length of the streak doesn't
seem to make a difference to the probability that the player will be
clutch or choke the next year. Is there any reason to expect *this*
streak to be different from past streaks?
Now if it were true that "75% of all three-year streaks remained true
to form", then we might have something useful. But then we wouldn't
have zero correlation. Instead we have "50% of all three-year streaks
remain true to form, and 50% of all three-year streaks reverse". You
look at those numbers and say "three year choke streak implies more
likely to choke this year". But it would be equally valid to look at
those numbers and say "three year choke streak implies more likely to
be clutch this year", since the probabilities are split 50-50 each
way.
>I completely accept that reasoning. Again, what if we were to find
>the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent
>basis?
Then we would have something useful. And we would also have a
positive correlation. But for every individual that exhibits such a
pattern and holds true, there is another who exhibits such a pattern
and then reverses.
Cheers,
-Valentine
| 9rec.sport.baseball
|
>
> Does anyone have any good ideas on how to integrate C++ code elegantly
> with TeleUse, UIM/X / Interface Architect generated code?
>
> Source would be great, but any suggestions are welcome.
It's my understanding that the next release of UIM/X, due out
last February :-) has full support for C++.
I use XDesigner which does not have the interpreter or UI meta languages
of these other tools but does fully support C++ code generation,
reusable templates via C++ classes which are generated, a variety of
other handy features for using C++ and layout functions in different
ways, and generates Motif 1.2 code (including drag 'n drop,
internationalization, etc.). Fits in quite nicely with Doug Young's
paradigm for C++/Motif.
Available in the US from VI Corp, in Europe from Imperial Software,
London (see FAQ for details).
Bill
________________________________________________________________________
Schlumberger Geco Prakla
kayser@delft.sgp.slb.com
| 5comp.windows.x
|
In article <1993Apr13.182614.2634@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu>
> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>> In article <1993Apr12.184034.1370@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>>>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within
>>>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what started the
>>>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab
>>>land ?
>> Huh? A war was started when several armies invaded Israel,
>>vowing to drive the Jews into the sea. Most Jews wanted to live in
>>peace, and the Arabs who stayed in Israel were granted citizenship.
> I am
>surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>state, as a hostile action leading to war.
It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
exclusive state. If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
400 000 arab citizens.
And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
action. When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce. It
is not a hostile action leading to war.
>As to whether the Jews wanted to live in peace, maybe.
>However they wanted and still want an exclusively Jewish
>state, where Jews are in control and Jews are the masters of
>the land. Living in peace is meaningless unless it means
>living *WITH* someone else, as equal. For a native arab, this
>does not leave many options.
Oh, you mean like both Jews and Arabs being citizens? The
arabs who stayed are now citizens, with as much right to choose who
they vote for as the Jews.
>Those palestinians who stayed, actually stayed despite of what
>happened, and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless
>and ineffective minority.
>If I were wrong, you'd have Israel recall all the
>palestinian refugees (we're talking millions). After all,
>they are civilians.
Huh? The people who left, did so voluntarily. There is no
reason for Israel to let them in.
>Israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it
>had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid
>flowing).
Israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...It
still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained. And how
is granting citizenship a facade?
>> Tell me something, Sam. What makes land "arab?"
>How shall I explain, Its a contract between the man and the
>land. Control isn't it. The Ottomans ruled 400 years, and
>then left with barely a trace. The concept of Land identity
>is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic West. It is
>partly the concept of 'le sol natal', native soil. I know
>that jews had previous history in the region, but none in
>recent memory. I'm talking everyday life not archeology.
Try again, you tell me what its isn't, but you fail to
establish what it is.
Also, Jews did have history in Israel for over a thousand
years. There were lots of Jews slaughtered by Crusaders in Israel.
There was a thriving community in Gaza city from roughly 1200-1500.
Jews were a majority in Jerusalem from 1870 or so onwards. Does that
make the land Jewish?
Adam
Adam Shostack adam@das.harvard.edu
"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..." -John Perry Barlow
| 17talk.politics.mideast
|
dzkriz@ocf.berkeley.edu (Dennis Kriz) writes ...
>One pays insurance to pay for coverage one expects/fears one might need.
>If one is opposed to abortion, one should not be required to pay for
>"coverage" of it because one will NEVER want to use that "service" and
>neither should that person be COMPELLED to pay for other people's
>abortions PARTICULARLY if one sincerely believes that abortion is
>murder.
Overriding any concern about morality is the fact that men (Dennis
is a man's name?) don't get abortions. Thus it is unreasonable to
suppose that YOUR insurance premiums are being used for the
possibility that you will be getting an abortion.
It looks like what you're really objecting to is other people paying
money for the possibility that THEY might need to get an abortion.
--
Ray Fischer "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth
ray@netcom.com than lies." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
| 18talk.politics.misc
|
In article <artmel.735538777@well.sf.ca.us>
artmel@well.sf.ca.us (Arthur Melnick) writes:
> We are strongly opposed to the clipper/capstone chips. In a
>press release today, our president, Dr. Stephen Bryen stated:
>
> "It seems as if the government has an unlimited source
> of funds to use to push its new bugged chips on the American
> Public. But do we not understand how the National Security
> Agency, which is not supposed to be involved in domestic
> spying, can fund the development of a commercial chip
> intended to accommodate U.S. government domestic spying
> activities."
>
Well, actually, this one's easy. It's their job. The NSA is
supposed to develop cryptosystems. If the government chooses to go
ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses, so be it.
This sounds a lot like slamming the competition, not a cry
for justice. These guys are way out on a limb, if I read that right.
They've commited their new algorithm to silicon before it's been
made public. What are they gonna do if Shamir writes a paper showing
how to crack the entire class of algorithms in 5 minutes with a slide
rule and a pencil?
If they weren't busy throwing muck to smear their competitors,
I'd feel kinda sorry for 'em. Still do, a little.
Andrew
| 11sci.crypt
|
Agreed. This is like the Bay of Pigs fiasco (planned by the Eisenhower
Administration but given the final green light by Kennedy).
To be sure, hen it all went down, Kennedy was at least man enough to take
full responsibility, which is not what I expect from Slick Willie Clinton....
| 11sci.crypt
|
>>>>> On 19 Apr 93 21:48:42 GMT, xlyx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu said:
Mike> Is it possible to do a "wheelie" on a motorcycle with shaft-drive?
Sure. In fact, you can do a wheelie on a shaft-drive motorcycle
without even moving. Just don't try countersteering.
:-)
--
Jerry Lotto <lotto@lhasa.harvard.edu> MSFCI, HOGSSC, BCSO, AMA, DoD #18
Chemistry Dept., Harvard Univ. "It's my Harley, and I'll ride if I want to..."
| 8rec.motorcycles
|
Turkish Historical Revision in auto-scribal residue <9305091835@zuma.UUCP>,
sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic), posted the following:
[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape,
[(*] 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
[(*] (Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
[(*] million Muslim people)
Bull!
[(*] p. 184 (second paragraph)
[(*]
[(*] "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
[(*] had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as
[(*] I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their
[(*] treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from
[(*] Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not
[(*] be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their
[(*] troops being without discipline and not under effective control,
[(*] atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should
[(*] with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."
On page 184 in my copy of the Rawlinson book, we find following facsimile.
Note the word Armenian doesn't even appear!
184 ADVENTURES IN THE NEAR EAST
disposal for our journey, I foresaw it would have to become
our headquarters for a considerable time, and therefore went
to some trouble to make it habitable. We had a most peculiar
little locomotive, originally built in America for the Russian
Government, adapted to burn either wood or oil; one covered
truck as men's quarters; one similar, which I fitted up for my-
self and a railway officer; and also a truck to carry wood, three
cars being the utmost our small engine could pull. With this
small outfit we started, rumours of all kinds reaching us before
our departure indicating that the whole situation was rapidly
coming to a head, it being evident that the Turks were becoming~
more and more restive in the face of the inexplicable delay of
the Allies in reaching any definite decision with regard to the
future.
Travelling on this little "war-time" railway was indeed an
experience, and it was necessary to carry a "gauge," and to
test the rails with it frequently, for in many places, owing to
the sinking of the embankments and the washing away of the
ballast, the rails required rectification before we were able to
get our train over, even at a foot pace; each bridge also re-
quired elaborate examination before adventuring the train upon
it, and eventually we were obliged to carry large baulks of tim-
ber to temporarily shore up many of the bridges and culverts
whilst we passed over them.
Under these circumstances it may be imagined that our prog-
ress was by no means rapid, and as we had frequently to halt
also to replenish our supply of wood fuel, we considered we
had achieved wonders when, on the evening of the second day,
60 hours and 70 miles out from Erzeroum, we finally entered the
gorge of the mountains where we understood our worst troubles
to lie. This is the same gorge into which the road from
Erzeroum to Kars descends from the foot-hills to cross the
frontier; the railway, however, follows the main Aras River val-
ley till the frontier gorge enters it, whilst the road cuts off the
corner and joins the rail again at the frontier post of Zivin,
some 15 miles from the main valley.
Soon after entering the gorge, we were confronted by the
first serious fall of rock--about 2,000 tons having fallen from
the cliff face and entirely obliterated the railway track. Here,
therefore, we halted, and, sending our engine back, prepared to
--
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies | Anatolia and has forgotten the
P.O. Box 382761 | punishment inflicted on it." 4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238 | -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal
| 17talk.politics.mideast
|
I recall a discussion I had heard years ago. It went something like this:
The problem with omnipotence (at least as I perceive it) as personified by
the christian God ideal is that it is potentially contradictory. If a
manifestation such as God is truly infinite in power can God place limits
upon itself?
.
.
Some stuff I can't recall.
Then some other questions I think I recall correctly:
Can God unmake itself?
Can God make itself (assuming it doesn't yet exist)?
Has God has always existed or is it necessary for an observer to bind all of
Gods potential quantum states into reality?
Was God nothing more than a primordial force of nature that existed during
the earliest stages of universal (inflationary?) creation?
Is God a vacuum fluctuation?
Given a great enough energy density could we re-create God?
Would that make US God and God something else?
.
.
Some more stuff I don't recall concerning creating God. Followed by:
Is God self-aware?
Is it necessary that God be self-aware?
Is God a living entity?
Is it necessay that God be a living entity?
Is God unchanging or does it evolve?
.
.
Any comments? Post them so that others might benefit from the open inquiry
and resulting discussion.
Kyle
| 0alt.atheism
|
In article <Apr.17.01.11.16.1993.2265@geneva.rutgers.edu> jdt@voodoo.ca.boeing.com (Jim Tomlinson (jimt II)) writes:
>Pardon me if this is the wrong newsgroup. I would describe myself as
>an agnostic, in so far as I'm sure there is no single, universal
>supreme being, but if there is one and it is just, we will surely be
>judged on whether we lived good lives, striving to achieve that
>goodness that is within the power of each of us. Now, the
>complication is that one of my best friends has become very
>fundamentalist. That would normally be a non-issue with me, but he
>feels it is his responsibility to proselytize me (which I guess it is,
>according to his faith). This is a great strain to our friendship...
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm afraid your friendship is in danger.
Perhaps you should examine in yourself why as such a good friend, you
are unwilling to accept this imortant part of your friends life? Why
do you call into question his faith? Your friend has changed, he has
found something that fills a need in his life. You need to decide if
you are still his friend, whether you can accommodate his new life.
It sounds as if you are criticizing him for a fundamental belief in
the Bible, yet you are quick to reveal that your fundamental belief
that it is superstition. Perhaps if he knew you at least took him
seriously, that you at least took an interest in the light he has found,
that you at least tried to understand what has become a special part of
his life, you could together decide to become fundamentalists, respect
each others differences and remain friends, or part ways. Maybe even if
you stuck it out with him, you could help him to un-convert. Of course,
if you go in with that attitude he will surely see through your intentions
and begin to resent you.
I happen to be a person very tolerant of fundamentalists, because I know
that the idea of a simple black and white approach to life is appealing.
I don't happen to share the beliefs of fundamentalists, but I am not
offended by their prosyletizing. I had a few good conversations with
some Witnesses who came to my door. I didn't switch my beliefs, but for
those at home who maybe need a friendly face to invite them somewhere,
the Witnesses provide a wonderful service. You may have been conditioned
to believe that religion is unimportant and witnessing is obnoxious, but
why? Are you afraid you might be converted and become one of them, that
you will be swept up in fundamentalism, that you will become a weirdo.
Friendship's a two-way street. You must respect your friend, ALL of him,
including his beliefs, if you want the friendship to continue.
Joe Moore
| 15soc.religion.christian
|
In article <1993Apr19.231050.2196@Rapnet.Sanders.Lockheed.Com> babb@rapnet.sanders.lockheed.com (Scott Babb) writes:
>
>The Federal Communications Act of 1934 made it *legal* for you to
>operate a radio receiver of any kind, on any frequency (including
>X, K, and Ka bands) in the United States. The Electronic
>Communications Privacy Act of 1989(?) restricted the FCA of 1934
>by making it illegal to receive the land-mobile telephone service,
>including (I believe) cellular phones.
Illegal to receive land-mobile telephone service? Don't you have to have a
mobile reciever to even have land-mobile telephone service? What about
ship-to-shore telephone service?
>No restriction was placed
>on receiving RADAR (or, curiously, cordless phones.) Enforcement
>of the Virginia law is in violation of the FCA of 1934.
Isin't there some kind of rule (regulation, law, whatever) in some
juristictions that prohibit the use of *police band* recievers
in vehicles? And that radar transmissions are included in the police band
so they get covered by the same regulation?
| 12sci.electronics
|
In a previous article, lusky@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jonathan R. Lusky) says:
>In article <93112.103631LRR105@psuvm.psu.edu> <LRR105@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>I'm not familiar with the trannies used in Winston Cup, but in the trans-am
>cars I've played with the transmissions were the racing variety, with
>dog clutches instead of sychros. In a transmission with dog clutches, the
>gears are always engaged with each other and moving the dog clutches
>engages the gears to the shafts. Motorcycle transmissions are the same way.
>Shifting without the clutch on a transmission with syncros can and will cause
>transmission damage, the only question being how long it takesto grenade
>something (for the trans in my 87 Pulsar SE, it was about 3-5k miles, but
>it had a weak tranny in the first place).
just out of curiosity, how is this "dog clutch" any different from a synchro
transmission. What you described SOUNDS the same to me. In fact, what little
i've studied on trannies, the instructor referred to the synchros as "dogs"
and said they were synonymous. The gears are always meshed in a synchronized
gearbox, and you slip the synchro gears back and forth by shifting. Or at least,
that is what i was taught. Explain, por favour?
thanx
DREW
ps email's fine if this is inappropriate for here, or if i'm the only bonhead
who doesn't know the diff.
| 7rec.autos
|
rja@mahogany126.cray.com (Russ Anderson) writes...
>In article <20APR199308471949@rigel.tamu.edu>, mst4298@rigel.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd) writes:
>> In article <visser.735286101@convex.convex.com>, visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes...
>> > I can't wait for the investigation. Considering that everyone
>> >is dead now and the place is burnt to the ground, I guess "honest citizens"
>> >will just have to take the word of the ATF about how much of a "threat"
>> >these people were.
>> Just look at the history of Koresh and his folowers. They captured
>> the Mount Carmel complex a few yearss ago in a gun battle with a
>> rival BD sect, leaving more than one person dead. They weren't
>> exactly the most peace loving bunch.
>Koresh & some of his followers were tried and found *innocent* of
>all charges following that shootout. Were you unaware of this or
>did you purposly leave out this fact?
The fact is that Koresh and his followers involved themselves
in a gun battle to control the Mt Carmel complex. That is not
in dispute. From what I remember of the trial, the authories
couldn't reasonably establish who fired first, the big reason
behind the aquittal.
_____ _____
\\\\\\/ ___/___________________
Mitchell S Todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________
________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/
\_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/
\__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/
\_ / /__________/
\/____/\\\\\\
\\\\\\
------
| 18talk.politics.misc
|
In article <1993Mar19.215728.24473@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>Armenians did not genocide Turks.
See, you are a pathological liar.
Source: "Adventures in the Near East," by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan
Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923)
(287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide
of 2.5 million Muslim people)
p. 177 (third paragraph)
"Armenian troops, who, having pillaged and destroyed all the
Moslem villages in the plain...."
"Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the
plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of
their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security
and protection..."
(to be continued...)
Serdar Argic
'We closed the roads and mountain passes that
might serve as ways of escape for the Turks
and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
(Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
| 17talk.politics.mideast
|
In article <C5LJG5.17n.1@cs.cmu.edu> mwm+@cs.cmu.edu (Mark Maimone) writes:
>In article <734975852.F00001@permanet.org> Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado) writes:
>>If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci.space,
>>but doesn't have an Internet feed (or has a cryptic Internet
>>feed), I would be willing to feed it to them.
>
> Kudos to Mark for his generous offer, but there already exists a
>large (email-based) forwarding system for sci.space posts: Space Digest.
>It mirrors sci.space exactly, and provides simple two-way communication.
>
I think Mark was talking about making it available to people who didn't
have email in the first place.
If anybody in the Boston area wants a sci.space feed by honest-to-gosh UUCP
(no weird offline malreaders), let me know. I'll also hand out logins to
anyone who wants one, especially the Boston Chapter of NSS (which I keep forgetting
to re-attend).
>Questions, comments to space-request@isu.isunet.edu
>--
>Mark Maimone phone: +1 (412) 268 - 7698
>Carnegie Mellon Computer Science email: mwm@cmu.edu
--
richard nickle rick@trystro.uucp 617-625-7155 v.32/v.42bis
think!trystro!rick somerville massachusetts
| 14sci.space
|
-*----
In article <1993Apr17.115716.19963@debbie.cc.nctu.edu.tw> mjliu@csie.nctu.edu.tw (Ming-zhou Liu) writes:
> I have bad luck and got a VD called <Granuloma ingunale>, which involves
> the growth of granules in the groin. I found out about it by checking
> medicine books and I found the prescriptions. ...
Ming-zhou Liu's main problem is that he has an incompetent
physician -- himself. This physician has diagnosed a problem,
even though he probably has never seen the diagnosed disease
before and has no idea of what kinds of problems can present
similar symptoms. This physician now wants to treat his first
case of this disease without any help from the medical community.
The best thing Ming-zhou Liu could do is fire his current
physician and seek out a better one.
Russell
| 13sci.med
|
In a previous article, steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) says:
>Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
> take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>
>A: Four
>
>Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>and one writes up a false report.
This newsgroup is for intelligent discussion. I want you to either smarten
up and stop this bullshit posting or get the fuck out of my face and this
net.
Steve
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca Fidonet: 1:163/109.18 |
| Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca |
| <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>> |
| 17talk.politics.mideast
|
In article <C5wC7G.4EG@toads.pgh.pa.us> geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:
>In article <1993Apr22.001642.9186@omen.UUCP> caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) writes:
>
>>>>>Can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back
>>>>>the lost weight does not constitute "weight rebound" until it
>>>>>exceeds the starting weight? Or is this oral tradition that
>>>>>is shared only among you obesity researchers?
>>>>
>>>>Annals of NY Acad. Sci. 1987
>>>>
>>>Hmmm. These don't look like references to me. Is passive-aggressive
>>>behavior associated with weight rebound? :-)
>>
>>I purposefully left off the page numbers to encourage the reader to
>>study the volumes mentioned, and benefit therefrom.
>>
>
>Good story, Chuck, but it won't wash. I have read the NY Acad Sci
>one (and have it). This AM I couldn't find any reference to
>"weight rebound". I'm not saying it isn't there, but since you
>cited it, it is your responsibility to show me where it is in there.
>There is no index. I suspect you overstepped your knowledge base,
>as usual.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Gordon Banks N3JXP | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
>geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon."
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's on page 315, about 2 1/2 inches up from the bottom and an inch in
from the right.
At least we know what some people *haven't* read and remembered.
--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf
Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, Professional-YAM, ZCOMM, and DSZ
Omen Technology Inc "The High Reliability Software"
17505-V NW Sauvie IS RD Portland OR 97231 503-621-3406
| 13sci.med
|